Post by: Wiles on June 18, 2013, 09:56:30 am
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You are a God! You are master and ruler of a loyal nation. You have unimaginable powers at your disposal. You have claimed this world as yours. But there are others who stand in your way. You must defeat and destroy these pretenders. Only then can you ascend to godhood and become the new Pantokrator.
In Dominions you take control of a powerful being that rules a nation and aspires to godhood. The type of Pretender Gods can vary from magically powerful arch mages to huge titans or large monuments. The pretender gods have different strengths dependent on what kind of god you choose and what nation you play.
When you start the game you decide what kind of god you are and how your Dominion affects your lands and followers. It is an expression of your divine might and the faith of your followers. If your dominion dies, so do you. Your dominion also inspires your sacred warriors and gives them powers derived from your dominion.
In order to win and become the one true god you have to defeat your enemies one of three different ways: conquer their lands, extinguish their dominion or claim the Thrones of Ascension.
In Dominions 4 you can also play team games where one of the players take the role of supreme god, and the other members of the team are his servants and loyal subjects. The lesser gods rule their nations, but you all share the dominion of the supreme god.
Dominions is set in a fantasy world that draws inspiration from historical nations, cultures and myths. You will not encounter the elves of conventional fantasy in this game. Instead you might lead a nation of vanir from old norse myth. Aztecs, romans, israelites, greeks, shona and kievian rus are just a few of the inspirational sources of the game.
The first Dominions game was released in 2002 and was well received by strategy gamers. Since then Dominions has been much refined and Dominions series is still actively played making it one of the longest running 4x turn based strategy games.
Dominions 4 is also a highly moddable game. You can create your own monsters, spells and entire nations. Since Dominions 3 there has been a vivid modding community and Dominions 4 will enhance this capability even further.
Post by: nenjin on June 18, 2013, 10:21:29 am
In classic Illwinter style, their announcement looks like it was made in 1992.
Thrilled to hear a new one is coming though.
Post by: Alkhemia on June 18, 2013, 10:21:51 am
(PTW)
Post by: ScriptWolf on June 18, 2013, 10:22:08 am
Post by: freeformschooler on June 18, 2013, 10:23:10 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 18, 2013, 10:57:38 am
Post by: nenjin on June 18, 2013, 11:04:30 am
Post by: Cthulhu on June 18, 2013, 11:09:07 am
Post by: Alkhemia on June 18, 2013, 11:13:54 am
Post by: nenjin on June 18, 2013, 11:38:55 am
There could be a lot done in the smoothening realm. I could usually do pretty well in AI games (not quite as well in multiplayer) up until the mid-game or so and things just got so complicated I'd get a headache and I practically needed to make an itinerary just to play my turn.
Yeah, pretty much this. And at about the half way point, a lot of the compelling factors of the game stop mattering. When you've searched half the map for sites with a rainbow mage, none of the new ones really benefit you anymore. While I appreciate how open-ended Dom 3 is with the rules and limitations, sometimes I think the game would be more fun to play with a few more limitations in place. Less is more, and all that.
Post by: Frumple on June 18, 2013, 11:58:04 am
My biggest complaint with Dom 3 has always been that it doesn't really give you the toolset to elegantly manage the game later on -- it's not that a toolset couldn't be made to do so, it's just that there wasn't one. Dom 3's biggest problem is UI.
Sideline a few things to encourage mid-late game usage (continued searching, etc. Make sites synergistic on a nation level somehow, so every extra one adds something potentially useful/possibly gamechanging instead of just more gems, stuff like that.) and it'd clean up the game a lot without having to sacrifice complexity or introduce more limitations.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 18, 2013, 12:14:21 pm
Post by: Karlito on June 18, 2013, 01:29:43 pm
Post by: Bitoru on June 18, 2013, 01:54:31 pm
Post by: Antioch on June 18, 2013, 02:21:46 pm
Honestly, just a few automation methods stuck into the UI would have done a... lot. Loopable building queues (which part of would be pre-setting commanders, what they're leading, and orders. This would also incorporate summons on all levels.), multi-province move orders (waypoint/rally commands), auto-site search, auto-scout (possible auto-assassinate!), nation wide order changing (say I want to change 1/3rd my <casters> to one set of spells, 1/2 to a different one, and the rest to something else, in one go or have all my <commanders> with >X units or leading Y unit type start moving towards province <whatever>... stuff like that)... just general tedium/micro removal. Don't even have to simplify the systems involved, just the means of using them.
My biggest complaint with Dom 3 has always been that it doesn't really give you the toolset to elegantly manage the game later on -- it's not that a toolset couldn't be made to do so, it's just that there wasn't one. Dom 3's biggest problem is UI.
Sideline a few things to encourage mid-late game usage (continued searching, etc. Make sites synergistic on a nation level somehow, so every extra one adds something potentially useful/possibly gamechanging instead of just more gems, stuff like that.) and it'd clean up the game a lot without having to sacrifice complexity or introduce more limitations.
so true, late game turns are usually 90% setting build orders the same as last turn and moving units one province closer to the province they were already heading for for the last 4 turns. Having the ability to MOVE troops without commander in friendly provinces would also really help, requiring a commander to even move adds nothing but tedious and no-brainer micro.
Post by: Biowraith on June 18, 2013, 02:24:21 pm
Yeah, pretty much this. And at about the half way point, a lot of the compelling factors of the game stop mattering. When you've searched half the map for sites with a rainbow mage, none of the new ones really benefit you anymore. While I appreciate how open-ended Dom 3 is with the rules and limitations, sometimes I think the game would be more fun to play with a few more limitations in place. Less is more, and all that.I'd cautiously agree on that point - I definitely favour the level of choice and freedom you get in Dom 3 so I'd be wary about limiting it at all, but I do find that as the game goes on any choices I made/make all just kinda merge together as absolutely everything becomes available - if e.g. I choose to specialise in Death and Astral magic at the start, I'd kinda prefer not to find that by end game I have full access to all the other spheres to exactly the same extent; basically in Dom 3 the end-game is pretty much the same whatever race or god you picked as it becomes increasingly easy to unlock everything.
I say that cautiously and warily because it'd be hard to get the balance just right - too easy to go too far the other way and limit everything too much, losing a lot of the freedom that sets it apart from other more run-of-the-mill titles.
Post by: nenjin on June 18, 2013, 02:26:19 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2013, 03:31:58 pm
The second I bought Dominions 3 BOOM! 4 is announced.
You are welcome.
Anyone have any other sequels they are hoping for?
Post by: Alkhemia on June 18, 2013, 03:46:38 pm
For once my curse has benefitted everyone.Homeworld 3 please and a new FF tactics :D
The second I bought Dominions 3 BOOM! 4 is announced.
You are welcome.
Anyone have any other sequels they are hoping for?
Back on topic I've not played 3 long enough to say what I would like them to change but a better diplomacy system would be cool maybe more summons or something
Post by: Stworca on June 18, 2013, 05:56:43 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2013, 05:58:38 pm
As well I personally would love either more customizable pretenders or just flat out more with new styles.
Post by: nenjin on June 18, 2013, 06:00:13 pm
I hope they'll sell it on steam/gg/other, and not some shit, third-world service, for a ridiculous, unacceptable price, like they did Dom3. The amount of people interested in it will be small enough without poor marketing choices.
It didn't seem to bother them a lick last time. Illwinter makes some...interesting choices for distribution, and seem more than willing to skip exposure in favor of all sales being through their website.
Who knows, maybe they've looked up and noticed it's 2013 now. I hope so at least. But I can guarantee it will be at least a $50 title at release, and it will probably not go on sale for 3 years until they're convinced every single possible buyer at $50 was found.
Post by: snelg on June 18, 2013, 07:44:56 pm
Looking forward to the game. I really hope they give the interface some big improvements since it wasn't excactly stellar in the last one.
Post by: Mr. Boh on June 18, 2013, 09:50:08 pm
Post by: Bluerobin on June 18, 2013, 09:56:11 pm
Post by: Nao on June 18, 2013, 10:14:30 pm
I hope they don't go the way of Conquest Elysium with simplified combat. Adding seasons like they are in CE would be awesome thou. >_< So excited!
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2013, 10:23:37 pm
Hot damn! PTW!!
I hope they don't go the way of Conquest Elysium with simplified combat. Adding seasons like they are in CE would be awesome thou. >_< So excited!
Well it worked in CE where everything was very localized. Where as Dominions takes place over huge areas.
Basically CE could have taken place in a single province.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 19, 2013, 09:45:40 pm
Must dominate more as the Blood Apes.
Post by: gman8181 on June 19, 2013, 09:54:45 pm
Post by: snelg on June 20, 2013, 03:03:24 am
Post by: Nao on June 20, 2013, 09:24:09 am
That's better way of looking at it :). I only played the demo of CE some time ago. And was kind of disappointed, because it wasn't Dom4 i hoped for.Hot damn! PTW!!
I hope they don't go the way of Conquest Elysium with simplified combat. Adding seasons like they are in CE would be awesome thou. >_< So excited!
Well it worked in CE where everything was very localized. Where as Dominions takes place over huge areas.
Basically CE could have taken place in a single province.
Are there any features introduced in CE that you would think could make their way into Dom 4? Something to speculate about? :P
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 20, 2013, 02:55:47 pm
I'm thinking about loading up Dom3, but I remember the AI is particularly lame to play against on impossible difficulties. Would enjoy more mods, too, maybe the announcement will spur new factions? I especially like Hellgate [Or the Travellers.. Forget the name], no matter how unbalanced they are. Makes it more fun to play against!
Didn't Dominions 3 already have seasons with various effects? Though you didn't see the map change I'm pretty sure it affected the cold/hot scale and some events.
Hm. Far as I remember it was just the little 'season' symbol changing.
Post by: Frumple on June 20, 2013, 03:02:12 pm
I'd like proper tactical combat. Please, make my dreams come true forever Dom4. I love you.Few things would be nearly as capable of potentially killing the game for me in one go. Dominions is one of the few standouts still remaining of the Ogre Battle ethos to combat, and by the gods I want more of that. We don't have nearly enough.
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Appropriate heat scale shift (summer hot, winter cold), certain units are more powerful during certain seasons, and winter in particular was bad for health and aging -- old dudes were more likely to take age related injuries and/or die, maybe some disease related stuff. May be some other stuff... season specific events, junk like that. Somewhat subtle effects, but potentially rather big deals in certain scenarios.Didn't Dominions 3 already have seasons with various effects? Though you didn't see the map change I'm pretty sure it affected the cold/hot scale and some events.
Hm. Far as I remember it was just the little 'season' symbol changing.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 20, 2013, 03:24:19 pm
I'd like proper tactical combat. Please, make my dreams come true forever Dom4. I love you.Few things would be nearly as capable of potentially killing the game for me in one go. Dominions is one of the few standouts still remaining of the Ogre Battle ethos to combat, and by the gods I want more of that. We don't have nearly enough.
Endgame becomes a match of throwing thousands of units into a formation and calling it good. Tactical combat would change that dynamic entirely. There's very few instances where getting maximum leadership on a Rainbow mage and a huge amount of shooting/hybrid mooks is not preferable. And these are with proper hero mods. Otherwise, even Giants are underpowered in comparison.
Seriously. You can win the entire game by finding a human province or two and constantly pumping out the moderately armored spearmen and no-armor archers.
Post by: nenjin on June 20, 2013, 03:34:57 pm
Dominions uses a scale for conflict that, for me, precludes full tactical control during combat. I agree with Frumple that we have too few games that run large scale battles for you in an interesting way.
Plus, I think spellcasters would be pretty broken if you had full tactical control of when, where and how they drop spells. The AI spellcasters can give you a pretty good example of this. (Nuke the army leader, nuke the army leader, nuke the army leader, nuke the army leader.)
Post by: Frumple on June 20, 2013, 03:54:23 pm
Seriously. You can win the entire game by finding a human province or two and constantly pumping out the moderately armored spearmen and no-armor archers.... maybe against someone who's asleep... or the AI, ha.
Or with gratuitous amounts of caster support and maybe a few SCs/thugs thrown in there, because without that it's bloody trivial to splat an indefinite number of basic indie recruits. At which point you're doing a lot more than spewing chaff and archers out of a few indie provinces...
You can win the entire game like that the same way you can win the entire game using nothing but your pretender. It's possible -- and if the enemy has no idea how to respond, not even difficult -- but incredibly easy to neuter. Dominions offers a bucketload of methods for dealing with single dimension strategies.
Post by: Anvilfolk on June 20, 2013, 05:48:26 pm
Post by: Daggoth on June 20, 2013, 06:39:51 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on June 20, 2013, 07:10:08 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 20, 2013, 07:34:38 pm
Actual formations instead of squares of units would be nice. Something à la Knights & Merchants or even the Total War series, where you decide the number of rows in each battle formation.
Given some of the units DESPERATELY NEED this... I have to agree.
I mean I understand that a Charge attack happens at any point, but a good cavalry charge is still powerful.
---
One reason why I sort of want a fantasy period is because of Ermor specifically. The differences between Early and Late age Ermor is immense to the extent that they are entirely different factions, in essence.
Yet they aren't the only nation who basically only appears in one period in all their glory. The Late Age does see some of the best "need no magic to whip your butt" nations and two of the best magical nations in all ages. While the early age has one of the best "need no magic" nations and a lot of the best magical nations.
Post by: Karlito on June 23, 2013, 01:16:27 am
I'm excited to see wraparound map generation in the game, and hopefully the UI improvements are along the lines that I want them too as well. Teamplay will be interesting too; I hope we hear more details soon.
EDIT: Oh hey, developers are answering some questions in the Desura forum thread (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-3-the-awakening/forum/thread/dominions-4-announced), nothing too concrete there yet, except for
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In plain English, one of the new nations is Machaka: Lion Kings for the early era. The rest shall remain shrouded in mystery for a while yet.
Post by: Alkhemia on June 23, 2013, 01:21:21 am
Hey, they updated the page (http://www.illwinter.com/dom4/index.html). It almost seems like they're reading this thread.Nice looking really good
I'm excited to see wraparound map generation in the game, and hopefully the UI improvements are along the lines that I want them too as well. Teamplay will be interesting too; I hope we hear more details soon.
Post by: Neonivek on June 23, 2013, 03:40:40 am
1) I'd love to see spellcasting units
and
2) The Beholder from CoE is awesome! For those who don't know his ability was that as his attack he can cast several low level spells in a single turn.
and I guess
3) Combat Casters would be a cool concept... Even if it is just for Pretenders. Characters who could actually get in enemies faces and cast spells (Ignoring the somewhat, iffy melee cast spells)
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Another thing I hope they add...
-NO MORE "in description only" abilities. I like the icons, if a character has an ability that allows them to generate a gem, it should be displayed.
-Status effects should be capable of being seen in battle.
Post by: Urist McManiac on June 23, 2013, 06:57:53 am
EDIT: Oh hey, developers are answering some questions in the Desura forum thread (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-3-the-awakening/forum/thread/dominions-4-announced), nothing too concrete there yet, except forQuoteIn plain English, one of the new nations is Machaka: Lion Kings for the early era. The rest shall remain shrouded in mystery for a while yet.
And in the same forum post Karlito quoted the dev more or less said there will also be a new faction named "Ur", based on Mesopotamian giants. Sounds very interesting, IMHO.
Post by: Neonivek on June 23, 2013, 04:07:19 pm
I know I am the only one but come on! A Era where all the factions are available (but for obvious reasons, only one version of a faction per game)
It could even be a shattered time where the pretender that won managed to collapse all reality so fragments from all the time periods came together and formed what you see before you. Heck, they could even go one step further and make factions and pretenders that ONLY exist in the Fantasy Era.
Like the Pantocreator Faction before he ascended (With a unique Pantocreator Pretender for that Faction) or a faction that is supposed to be the "last" faction made up of only the surviving races. As well as a Oblivion faction which are beings that only came into existence at the death of everything.
Or heck alternate timeline faction too. Like a Fantasy Ermor that actually succeeded at their goals.
Post by: ragnarok97071 on June 23, 2013, 04:11:18 pm
Yes yes yes
I chose an awesome time to manage to get a job.
I will preorder this shit as soon as it is possible if it is possible. *o*
Post by: Neonivek on June 23, 2013, 04:16:21 pm
Post by: gman8181 on June 23, 2013, 06:47:22 pm
Post by: Leonon on June 23, 2013, 06:52:24 pm
I'd like to have direct tactical control over one unit, my pretender. If my pretender casts a spell that lets him/her/it assume direct control of a unit they should be player controlled too, but nothing else. Maybe the ability to give simple orders like in Mount and Blade if my pretender is in a battle or magically controlling a commander in that battle.I'd like proper tactical combat. Please, make my dreams come true forever Dom4. I love you.Few things would be nearly as capable of potentially killing the game for me in one go. Dominions is one of the few standouts still remaining of the Ogre Battle ethos to combat, and by the gods I want more of that. We don't have nearly enough.
I'd also like to be able to either order mages to not cast certain spells when in battle, have units undeadified during battle stick around, or be able to re-undeadify bodies that were undeadified during battle after they collapse once the battle is over.
Also, shattered timeline idea is awesome.
Post by: Neonivek on June 23, 2013, 07:27:44 pm
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Also, shattered timeline idea is awesome
Thanks, I was worried no one would read it.
Post by: Karlito on June 23, 2013, 08:43:14 pm
I'd like to have direct tactical control over one unit, my pretender. If my pretender casts a spell that lets him/her/it assume direct control of a unit they should be player controlled too, but nothing else. Maybe the ability to give simple orders like in Mount and Blade if my pretender is in a battle or magically controlling a commander in that battle.
I'd also like to be able to either order mages to not cast certain spells when in battle, have units undeadified during battle stick around, or be able to re-undeadify bodies that were undeadified during battle after they collapse once the battle is over.
If you mean direct control during a battle there's zero chance of that happening. It would completely break the way the game works. A greater range of orders that could be given to commanders would be nice though.
Post by: Neonivek on June 23, 2013, 09:30:30 pm
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Are you aware this exists, Neonivek?
I am aware it just has several problems on its own.
1) It doesn't work on certain maps
2) Several of the same faction has large issues
and
3) Because it is a mod it isn't in common use.
4) It uses "early era" rules as well. It isn't a true combined Era.
It is something that needs to be added in an official capacity or it just doesn't work as well as it should.
Mind you that is if you are doing a "just mod it in" response. If you aren't then here is my other response
I just think the developer could do it much better then any modder could. As well there is just more you could do with a Shattered Timeline Era then just add in all the factions. As well if this era is in the game "officially" then it can be used in more official games.
How many of the 14 rounds have used the All in One mod? If there was a Shattered Timeline Era in Dominions 3 I am sure we would be seeing a lot more of it.
Post by: Bluerobin on June 23, 2013, 10:37:36 pm
It's possible, but you would have to build the nations from the ground up with that in mind. I guess that makes it a job better suited for the developers, but it also means that it's more difficult to give nations a unique identity in different ages. It's... honestly not worth the effort.
All that said, I really like the idea of alternate timeline version of nations. LA Ermor that beat the curse, LA Caelum with their divine influence intact, maybe a MA or LA R'lyeh with more aboleths (I was always a little sad that the giant fish pretty much disappeared when the squidfaces showed up).
Post by: Neonivek on June 23, 2013, 10:58:53 pm
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maybe a MA or LA R'lyeh with more aboleths
It would probably be a alternate timeline where a different Great Old One took over instead because Cthulhu was sealed, possibly by another faction, and Abthoth grew in power and took over instead. With a focus on the deep sea.
I honestly hope Yog-Slothoth becomes a Pretender.
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mostly when you start looking at things like how capitals generate different amounts of gems in different ages and how mages are overall much more powerful in EA than LA, among other things
And that is probably what would most have to be balanced by the developers.
Weird aimless brainstorming in spoiler
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: TheMastermind on June 24, 2013, 03:52:17 am
http://www.illwinter.com/dom4/index.html
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Here's a short list with the most important changes compared to Dominions 3.
Teamplay, one pretender and one or more disciples per team.
Thrones of Ascension. Claim thrones to gain extra powers and to win the game eventually.
Many sprites have been redrawn and the 3d terrain is also improved.
Many user interface improvements.
Formations like line formation or skirmish formation.
Improved random map generation with wraparound maps, caves, rivers and mountain passes.
Rivers that can only be passed when frozen, mountain passes that can only be passed by special units and when it's warm.
Pierce, slash and blunt weapons have slightly different quirks. E.g. don't shoot arrows at skeletons.
Darkness and dark vision plays a more important role. Notably in deep seas, caves and sometimes during assassinations.
Range restrictions on magic rituals and items and spells that can be used to boost ritual ranges.
Improved network support, turns can be resumed from any computer and turns can be marked as only half finished.
Global random events
Can build castle improvements like extra towers or extra supply storage
Province Defence dependent on the local population and some nations have easier or harder to organize it.
Improvements to AI and to modding.
Many new monsters, spells, magic items, sites, random events and some nations too.
Post by: Knave on June 24, 2013, 09:25:32 am
Post by: Antioch on June 24, 2013, 09:38:03 am
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Many user interface improvements.
We can only hope...
Post by: nenjin on June 24, 2013, 10:11:20 am
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Can build castle improvements like extra towers or extra supply storage
Province Defence dependent on the local population and some nations have easier or harder to organize it.
Really happy about these two.
#1 because the act of fortifying was boring and didn't offer any real customization or unique advantages. You were just stuck with the kind of fortress the terrain allowed, and you'd have a lab and temple because why not? Hoping this lead to more trade offs and choices, and not more of Dom 3's "build everything everywhere because yes."
#2 because Province Defense was way overpowered in single player. A region with 1000 people could hold off the best the AI could throw at them if you maxed out province defense. Now there will be actual weak points in your provinces, subject to events and such.
Also I'm hoping map gen is slightly improved, to the degree you don't end up with "Land War in Asia" all the time. It'd be nice to not have to gen 20 maps at 8 minutes a piece before I find one I like.
Post by: ragnarok97071 on June 24, 2013, 10:27:39 am
Post by: nenjin on June 24, 2013, 10:30:22 am
well, you seem fine with one map in fifteen-thirty minutes, from the forum you're on, so maybe they'll go with that ;p
Touche. Then again, Dom isn't quite at the level of DF.
Post by: TheMastermind on June 24, 2013, 11:28:24 am
Guess it wont be at this release S:
Post by: Frumple on June 24, 2013, 11:43:40 am
If the combat system in general shifted up a bit, there might be room for it... but that's pretty unlikely, so a kind of 'custom' in-game unit builder is also pretty unlikely.
Post by: Neonivek on June 24, 2013, 10:56:53 pm
How I'd do it is I'd have a "Basic unit" (Or possibly a basic and a skilled) and have those be equip able while still having the faction specific units (For example Pythium would still have the old vet soldiers)
Now for Dominions I wouldn't add that system for the reason that the game has a very limited art assets and for that a visual cue for each type of combination would be required. It is rather labor intensive.
Post by: Frumple on June 24, 2013, 11:59:18 pm
Light armor, heavy armor, with or without helmet, with or without shield, etc., so forth, so on, all nudge the units towards particular uses, open up synergies with particular spells, and so on and so forth. As I said re: weapons, it's pretty subtle, but surprisingly significant (especially over the long run of a game, where all the little advantages start adding up in big ways). Particularly so when folks that are really good at Dom 3 start working their magic.
As for the visual aspect, that actually would likely be little trouble. There's already at least one fairly functional unit randomizing mod for Dom 3 that handles the graphical aspects related to different weapons et al without terrible much issue. I'd imagine taking notes from its methodology would greatly streamline the effort of implementing something like an in-game custom unit builder.
Thinking on it a bit more, it... actually might not be that big of a balance issue. You'd just limit the equipment loadout and suchlike by nation and let that handle the balancing aspect of it. I'm not entirely sure whether that'd actually save the developer any effort or open up much possibilities to the player, though... you'd probably end up with the same (or very similar) "mix" that th'nation'd be designed with anyway.
Post by: TheMastermind on June 25, 2013, 06:00:45 am
As a gameplay mechanic, the unit customization would really open up a tons of choices to the player, because of the big amount of stats in the game, you might want light armor for you troops to have low encumbrance, or maybe equip them with more magic resistance equipment. With the new element of different kinds of weapon damage (crushing, slashing and piercing), you would want to equip your army with hammers when going to war against skeletons. Of course everything effects gold and resource cost.
I would like to imagine troops being made of race, equipment (all different parts of it) and training, training means having more strength, attack, defense, being able to cast magic, being better with certain equipment, mounted and so forth. while each nation has its own access to different things and magic sites may give you even more options (a site that makes magic swords or one that allows you to recruit dwarfs, or train your troops as anti mages).
It can even be used to farther customize your pretender.
I think this would be awesome (but probably wont happen in dom4).
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 25, 2013, 02:24:55 pm
I'd argue the armor system itself almost needs fixing. Can't be too detailed with it as I don't remember the specifics, I just remember that 1 unit with 15+ armor can be practically invincible to anything not special/blessed/Notaheropretender. What's that late age Fire nation, Abysia? With the guys in plate mail, tower shields, AND fire maces, with blessing ability? 24 resources to make. That shit is incredibly broken and should be removed completely, and you should have to spend crystals and research energy to create such elaborate equipment, not start the game with such ability [See below]. Would cut down on rushing castles to rush chaff to win.
While there should be an option to upgrade the sections of armor individually outside of unit creation itself - aka you 'research' chain boots as opposed to leather boots you began with [or chain if you're late age, working to half plate and beyond] - to gradually [marginally] increase your strength. But no throwing plate mail on everything. That'd be.. Broken.
Resources are barely a limiter in those situations per my experience, gold is. And at the start of the game you tend to begin with plenty of gold, so what would stop a new game from becoming a pump-out-elite-soliders-you-designed-cheaply from turn one? Turn two they double their resources. Turn three they're pumping out 20+ resource units.
With the fixed units it alleviates this strategy, unless of course they're like LA Ermor and have fucking stupidly broken chaff soliders [which are free, cost nothing to raise..] and then the strategy is still to zerg rush.
I want polished mechanics and added inventive spells, for the most part, from Dom4.
Combat is rather wonky in my opinion and could enjoy an entire rebuild, heh.
Fatigue rarely effects anyone other than tournament heroes who fight long rounds.
Chaff troops can easily be categorized as 'throwaway' and 'incredibly useful' see: EA Atlantis, EA Pangaea, R'lyeh in general..
While other factions are balanced to absolute perfection through every age: See Agartha, C'tis [for the most part] and Marignon. Ulm isn't badly balanced either, but they're incredibly weak compared to countries like Arco and Ermor. Even Caelum is pretty strong compared to the others. That's why I like the Hellgate mod, then atleast there's a demony faction which is able to curbstomp all those do-gooders with their severely unfair chaff troops.
Balance balance balance is almost all I truly yearn for in Dom3. But with Dom4 I can atleast hope for a bit extra, heh.
There also needs to be a 'good' faction that isn't insane and self serving to be the Yin to Ermor's LA Yang. Sure, Aero and Marignon claim to be good, but we all know they're genocidal pricks for the most part by late age as all the fighting turns them into Xenphobes. Not an 'Angel' faction either. Something unconventional. Bogarus is pretty close to what I feel would be appropriate. The Giant Nations are almost good, but seem more like a Lawful Neutral type. Just seems like no nation in Late Age is dedicated to bringing the world back from the brink of chaos, everyone and their sister does necromancy.. Just seems like no matter what'd happen Post-Dominion Battle the people on the world itself are pretty screwed, heh.
Post by: Neonivek on June 25, 2013, 02:29:08 pm
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You give every nation the ability to build their own Ermor Legionnaires and there won't be much reason to do anything but.
The costs, quality, and even availability would be on a nation per nation basis.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 25, 2013, 02:36:26 pm
QuoteYou give every nation the ability to build their own Ermor Legionnaires and there won't be much reason to do anything but.
The costs, quality, and even availability would be on a nation per nation basis.
Under which terms though? Sounds like way more work than the payoff would be [balancing theoretically unlimited possibilities that change, with the different equipments to take into account, on a nation by nation basis? oh lord the manhours], as they've been using the fixed units effectively till now. A few nations with broken chaff [that are banned online like Ermor] doesn't mean we should make every nation get broken mooks. I just think more balance work needs to go into the factions themselves instead of that. Dom3 was never about customizing your troops, the nations make those. You're a god heading their ultimate destiny, not equipping militias.
But that could be a very interesting topic to pick up for the COE games, think about it. That game is a bit more personal and it'd make sense to be equipping units on your own. Not to mention how much more rad it'd be [Think about the payoff for COE in those changes!! Way better for the work itself], bringing depth and interaction to it. The game's a smaller scale than Dominions so it'd make sense for the faction leader to be worried about the equipment of their soldiers. Dominions, well, it'd make less sense to me that a Deity is worrying about the boots of their soldiers.
This isn't even mentioning the extra added layer of micromanagement we'd have to do to comply with that kind of a design system. Stardock games can get away with it as they're a lot less micromanagement intensive. With obviously much less depth to their combinations. I can't see a way to do something like that in Dom without spending their entire development time balancing combinations. Which they don't do. So we'd just have a broken mess of zerg rushing designed legions.
Post by: Neonivek on June 25, 2013, 03:46:34 pm
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Under which terms though?
What?
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Dom3 was never about customizing your troops
Ok as a side note... It SHOULD have been easier to do that for your generals.
Heck for some units I basically started going insane because I wanted to equip them but no apparently they need the "gift of reason".
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I just think more balance work needs to go into the factions themselves instead of that.
I think it is a mostly pointless feature made to be interesting. Most-all the factions already have all the combinations of armors and weapons for the soldiers they have already (excluding the special soldiers who don't count.)
Post by: Frumple on June 25, 2013, 04:01:49 pm
I'd argue the armor system itself almost needs fixing. Can't be too detailed with it as I don't remember the specifics, I just remember that 1 unit with 15+ armor can be practically invincible to anything not special/blessed/Notaheropretender. What's that late age Fire nation, Abysia? With the guys in plate mail, tower shields, AND fire maces, with blessing ability? 24 resources to make. That shit is incredibly broken and should be removed completely, and you should have to spend crystals and research energy to create such elaborate equipment, not start the game with such ability [See below]. Would cut down on rushing castles to rush chaff to win.Iirc it takes like two/three level of research and some n2 or w2 casters to pretty much neuter most early game heavy armor rushes :P Probably less than that, it's been a while since I muddled about with Dominions. Most heavy armor period, really, when it doesn't have a heavy earth bless (which even that may not be enough) or heavy buffing backing it up. Little bit of fatigue spam and they keel over dead to spearmen.
Fatigue is incredibly deadly in Dominions, heh. If you're not seeing fatigue issues with something like that Mict, it's because it's not being leveraged against you, not because it doesn't exist. It's less drastic early on (but even then, a couple dudes spamming some of the early fatigue spells can wreck some serious havoc), sure, but in the later game some of the battlefield wide stuff can absolutely neuter huge swathes of anything that actually has fatigue. It can get pretty incredible, ha.
Re: some of your later stuff in that post, don't get me wrong, some of the nations do have comparatively notable advantages, but it's never because of single units like that -- not even when it's a decent bless strategy (even EA or LA mict's relatively trivial to drop if they're not doing something more than just spewing blessed jaguar warriors around.). It's all about the ability to leverage combined arms -- particularly what the casters bring to the table -- not the sole ability to spew chaff. Armies in dominions live and die by their magical backup. The rest provides the lever itself, perhaps, but it's the casters that provide the leverage. You can get away without much magic use vs. the AI, but even a semi-decent human player would tear y'apart if you try that.
With the fixed units it alleviates this strategy, unless of course they're like LA Ermor and have fucking stupidly broken chaff soliders [which are free, cost nothing to raise..] and then the strategy is still to zerg rush.Trying to say this as unaggressive as I can, but things like that make me wonder if you actually play Dom3 much Mict. LA Ermor's chaff units are pretty close to trash. They're broken, sure, but they're broken because of how useless they are against anything with two brain cells to rub together. They're hard countered by priest spam and like a half dozen specifically anti-undead spells, some of which can wipe out huge swaths of LA Ermor freespawn in one casting. They tromp the AI (which doesn't know how to react to chaff spamming, undead or otherwise) and basically nothing else, because they're so one dimensional it's almost painful :-\
People hate playing against them because they ruin the land they're in, not because their chaff is a threat. LA Ermor can sometimes be dangerous if they make it past the early/mid game, once they've gotten enough summons and casters about to leverage the few turns the chaff can buy them before being annihilated -- but whether they can reach that point is almost entirely dependent on the whims of the game's other players. Before that all it takes is a few indie provinces mass producing priests to completely walk over the undead freespawn and just a little extra to murder off their (painfully monochromatic, if very good at what they actually do) casters.
Post by: Neonivek on June 25, 2013, 04:29:23 pm
Their weakness is until the point where they spin out of control they can be seriously pushed back and pretty much stink in the early game. They actually outright rely on their dominion to diminish the strength of the independent nations.
Post by: Frumple on June 25, 2013, 04:46:50 pm
Their main advantage is the heavy death and their dominion ruining everything, more than anything else. Ermor doesn't spin out of control much (if at all) worse than any other of the death nations, it's just maybe a little more brainless about it, heh.
Their weakness is as you say, plus the caster diversity and cost issues and their heavy reliance on summons and/or indie stuff to get anything done on the battlefield (that doesn't involve their casters, anyway).
Post by: Neonivek on June 25, 2013, 04:52:09 pm
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Ermor doesn't spin out of control much (if at all) worse than any other of the death nations
You can only compare late age Ermor to the other Late Age since there is no "Shattered Timeline Era".
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 25, 2013, 05:14:54 pm
Re: some of your later stuff in that post, don't get me wrong, some of the nations do have comparatively notable advantages, but it's never because of single units like that -- not even when it's a decent bless strategy (even EA or LA mict's relatively trivial to drop if they're not doing something more than just spewing blessed jaguar warriors around.). It's all about the ability to leverage combined arms -- particularly what the casters bring to the table -- not the sole ability to spew chaff. Armies in dominions live and die by their magical backup. The rest provides the lever itself, perhaps, but it's the casters that provide the leverage. You can get away without much magic use vs. the AI, but even a semi-decent human player would tear y'apart if you try that.
So... How do you rate Caelum and Aero and Ermor, with their versatile and strong choices of troops, and strong magic to back them up? Other factions get largely unbalanced choices of troops, favoring one style or the other, while certain nations happen to be good at everything and wrecking-ball all other opposition. The factions need balance, bottom line. How many times have you opted to play as Jomon late age?
Quit giving me these quips about 'that isn't how actual players play' because that's the game as is, and it's relatively easy to counter expensive priest spam. Don't make me PBEM you and prove the brokenness.
Also, I do not have issues with fatigue outside of tournaments or specific instances where a spell-caster blows their whole load on an exhaust spell and passes out the whole match to delay 20 of my soldiers. Worthwhile full battlefield effect fatigue spells are difficult to get to far as I remember. It's why I opt for defensive magic in Dom3. Those types of spells fall pretty flat when you've got all sorts of counters and buffs ready, of which there is a wide availability. Isn't it something like three branches are defensive and utility oriented mainly?
I will re-install Dom3 now and play to refresh myself on the things that annoyed me so as to rant less and specify the silliness in balance, and because the announcement made me want to play again.
Also, my game experiences might vary from others as I always went with having dormant [the long one] pretenders to enhance my dominion and magical abilities. Might give me an unfair advantage against things to have rainbow blessings on all holy units.
Post by: Frumple on June 25, 2013, 05:59:53 pm
You can only compare late age Ermor to the other Late Age since there is no "Shattered Timeline Era".Yeesss... and there's a number of other LA nations with a strong death presence. Ermor's got a slight advantage in caster quality, but pretty much everything else has more casters, and better spell access outside of death.
So... How do you rate Caelum and Aero and Ermor, with their versatile and strong choices of troops, and strong magic to back them up? Other factions get largely unbalanced choices of troops, favoring one style or the other, while certain nations happen to be good at everything and wrecking-ball all other opposition. The factions need balance, bottom line. How many times have you opted to play as Jomon late age?Aero... do you mean Arco? Arco's solid across the board, with the elephants for early expansion and then the caster presence to leverage their higher map move chaff stuff excellently later, after everything and its little cousin can make those elephants demolish your own army. Heavy astral and good spread otherwise makes them an absolutely vicious communion nation, too. Arco's nasty in most of the eras due to that communion punch and solid early expansion.
Caelum's always had major fatigue issues for me (flying wrecks your dudes fatigue), insofar as their non-caster stuff goes, not to mention the problem inherent to things like the enemy deciding to laugh and cast storm. The mammoths are alright (same niche as the Arco 'phants, and the same problems), but they've got less of a unit presence (again, the flying thing) to help back it up than Arco. Archers are alright, but short bows are comparatively eh. Magic spread isn't exactly mindblowing either, though air magic is pretty solid and they've got what they need to bootstrap to a fair bit of excellent low hanging stuff, eyeballin' 'em... they'd definitely be relying on the pretender or summoned stuff for late game casting, though. Ubiquitous flight does offer a lot of strategic advantages, though, even if pound for pound most of your flying units are on the sub end of par.
Ermor... doesn't have versatile or strong troops, at least in LA, and while it's got strong death, it doesn't have strong anything else.
Jomon's actually not that bad. Their yari-dudes are good for blocking stuff and their archers are one of the better ones in LA. Elite stuff's kinda' so-so, unfortunately. They've got a solid combat magic presence as well -- which is the big thing -- and alright communion potential (especially via forged crystals.).
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Quit giving me these quips about 'that isn't how actual players play' because that's the game as is, and it's relatively easy to counter expensive priest spam. Don't make me PBEM you and prove the brokenness.Indie priests are kinda' cheap :P And you'd be going well out of the way of simple chaff spam to do it, which was... kinda' my point. Couldn't play yeh even if you wanted to, though... don't have access to the game at th'mo.
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Also, I do not have issues with fatigue outside of tournaments or specific instances where a spell-caster blows their whole load on an exhaust spell and passes out the whole match to delay 20 of my soldiers. Worthwhile full battlefield effect fatigue spells are difficult to get to far as I remember.That's why you have five or six casters with maybe a minor earth bless if they're holy :P There's a couple of full field fatigue spells, checking on it -- one for fire and one for ice, at the very least, both at enchant six, 4 ranks in the respective path, which is a little high but pretty doable. Then a handful of decent AoE ones (sleep cloud, etc.) much lower down and easier to use.
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It's why I opt for defensive magic in Dom3. Those types of spells fall pretty flat when you've got all sorts of counters and buffs ready, of which there is a wide availability. Isn't it something like three branches are defensive and utility oriented mainly?Ehn, not exactly. Or rather, depends on what you call utility. There's only one major direct damage school (evocation) and two largely non-combat ones (Conjuration, construction), but the rest of them have pretty good mixes of offense and defense.
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Also, my game experiences might vary from others as I always went with having dormant [the long one] pretenders to enhance my dominion and magical abilities. Might give me an unfair advantage against things to have rainbow blessings on all holy units.Yeah... I leaned toward that myself, but I'm terribly aware that it's usually a fairly suboptimal thing to do. SC for the early expansion, rainbow for early rainbow-y stuff, etc., so forth, so on, is often a better idea depending on how capable your nation is of early expansion or conflict. If you've got a dormant pretender and your neighbors have an awake SC, there's even odds you don't survive 'till the pretender gets out, heh. To say nothing about the nastiness of what happens if you start near a blood sac nation without your pretender up and about.
Post by: Neonivek on June 25, 2013, 07:47:46 pm
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Ermor... doesn't have versatile or strong troops, at least in LA, and while it's got strong death, it doesn't have strong anything else.
It has, other advantages unique to it and only it. Hence why Ermor is the earliest "Win condition" faction (mostly because they spin out of control)
They do rely on map size though. I cannot imagine Ermor winning on a small map.
Post by: Bluerobin on June 25, 2013, 07:57:25 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 25, 2013, 08:01:03 pm
"Wow, a race of titans!"
"Ohh... they have... a few giant units... that have too many weaknesses to be helpful"
"Ohhh... the internet doesn't have any strategies for using them because they are low on the tier list"
It is especially funny with the races that can't even use their own advantages.
It would be nice is more factions/nations felt more different from one another.
-I also hope they let you mix up strategies. Like being able to tell your archers to fire on the closest group until they get into melee with your own units.
-Races should be more differentiated then even as they currently are.
-Also MUCH MORE underwater Pretenders. I know no one uses more then... well 5 pretenders, but come on!
Post by: Mrhappyface on June 25, 2013, 09:18:56 pm
Post by: Endymion on June 25, 2013, 11:23:09 pm
Anyways, I sorta think there is a lot of variety in the nations. Leaps and bounds of it compared to any other 4X at least. R'yleh and Ermor being the obvious ones, but also pangaea, Agartha, and some of the other nations that have interesting quirks that lead to weird options, like Arco's Mind-hunt-spam.
I would say that one thing that would really help though would be better buff-spell targeting options in battle. So that I can tell my mages easily that I want this spell or that spell targetted on squad 1 or whatever. Even if it was just limitted to the mage's own squads that you could manually target.
Also-- add a 20 square strip in the middle of the battlefield. And increase ranges to compensate. Just a little something to allow magic more time to happen.
Post by: Neonivek on June 26, 2013, 02:34:11 am
Post by: TheMastermind on June 26, 2013, 01:01:40 pm
Post by: Frumple on June 26, 2013, 01:24:16 pm
Also magic items for independents would be awesome (Everyone loves LOOT)!... more, anyway, perhaps. Dom 3 already had that to limited extents, heh. Was just fairly rare.
Post by: TempAcc on June 26, 2013, 03:26:57 pm
Post by: Mrhappyface on June 26, 2013, 06:31:41 pm
I'd love if we got more control over our armies during combat. Its not that I dislike the current system, I just feel it could be less simplistic and that way more could be done with it. Of course improved AI is greatly apreciated when multiplayer isn't an option, and maybe an actual diplomacy system so that we can interact with AI nations in ways other then total war. That would be specialy useful during multiplayer games in which a player becomes unable to continue playing and has to set his nation to AI.It would also certainly make single player more interesting.
Post by: Duuvian on June 27, 2013, 03:28:49 pm
Also magic items for independents would be awesome (Everyone loves LOOT)!... more, anyway, perhaps. Dom 3 already had that to limited extents, heh. Was just fairly rare.
In B12gameround12 one of my commanders found a cursed knife from a bloodhenge druid. Since it automatically equips it, it's stuck to his hand forever. You would think you'd have one of your speartroops pick it up before you when you find a weapon in a world that has cursed ones.
Post by: gimli on June 27, 2013, 05:33:30 pm
It was terrible at best. If the devs won't make it much better, I will skip this game. [...or at least they should support AI modding somehow?] I don't like PBEM multi games, and it's unplayable in hotseat mode, since it takes ages to complete a turn from mid game.
Post by: MoLAoS on June 28, 2013, 08:52:17 am
I honestly don't care for PBEM multiplayer either, or any multiplayer game that takes literal months to run. Dull, dull, dull.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 28, 2013, 08:55:09 am
Post by: nenjin on June 28, 2013, 10:01:32 am
Eh, kids these days.
With their vulgar slang, baggy pants and lack of appreciation for email-based entertainment!
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 28, 2013, 10:15:43 am
Word.Eh, kids these days.
With their vulgar slang, baggy pants and lack of appreciation for email-based entertainment!
Post by: Alkhemia on June 28, 2013, 11:43:21 am
Post by: TheMastermind on July 09, 2013, 02:40:29 pm
http://www.illwinter.com/dom4/index.html
Says it's expected to be completed in late August, also may be soon available for pre-order on Desura.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on July 09, 2013, 02:45:19 pm
Post by: TheMastermind on July 17, 2013, 03:08:25 pm
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions
Post by: Knave on July 17, 2013, 03:30:41 pm
Post by: nenjin on July 17, 2013, 03:53:43 pm
I can't help but feel like they're cashing in, again, on most of the base code for Dom 3. Very little actually looks different in those screen shots. And while it seems like the nations and spell lists have grown dramatically...and units seem to be slightly higher res.....I dunno. At least they're not charging $50 for what is starting to look like Dominions 3.5.
Post by: Boksi on July 17, 2013, 03:59:51 pm
While I'm thrilled by new Dominions content...I don't think much of the actual work will show up graphically. Formations and teamplay seem like the two biggest additions to me, and there's some other interesting stuff there as well.
I can't help but feel like they're cashing in, again, on most of the base code for Dom 3. Very little actually looks different in those screen shots. And while it seems like the nations and spell lists have grown dramatically...and units seem to be slightly higher res.....I dunno. At least they're not charging $50 for what is starting to look like Dominions 3.5.
Post by: nenjin on July 17, 2013, 06:14:14 pm
Post by: Boksi on July 20, 2013, 11:53:03 am
Notably, there's a pile of interface improvements. Just look at all those beautiful improvements. And I hear the UI's moddable, too.
Post by: Grand Nagus on July 20, 2013, 12:17:17 pm
Post by: Boksi on July 20, 2013, 12:31:31 pm
Illwinter, please bow down and let us throw our money at you. I think I speak for everyone.Don't worry, you can do that already. (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions)
Also, another article (http://www.matchstickeyes.com/2013/07/15/whats-new-in-dominions-4-thrones-of-ascension/) and some gameplay footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB78utM7y3g).
In more saddening news, reverse communions are no more. Slaves now cannot act at all when a master is present, and will suffer backlash if a master dies or retreats. I guess turbo communions are the new order of the day, then.
Post by: ScriptWolf on July 20, 2013, 01:58:16 pm
Post by: Culise on July 21, 2013, 02:46:57 am
There's some new information here. (http://thurot.com/2013/07/13/dominions-4/#more-4097)
Notably, there's a pile of interface improvements. Just look at all those beautiful improvements. And I hear the UI's moddable, too.
Variable formations. Detailed casualty listings. Rivers and mountain passes that affect strategic movement. I am so totally in love right now. ^_^
The real thing I'm worried about, though, is still late-game micro issues. Managing hordes of research mages using gem generator artifacts of various types was not entertaining (in fact, it was so not-entertaining that CBM converted many gem generators to unique artifacts just so players didn't feel obligated to pop out dozens of Clams of Pearls solely to keep up with their Astral Gem production), and that renaming mages just to see their paths at a glance (rather than having to painstakingly click through each one to find the one with the right paths to cast whatever latest ritual spell you had researched) was a critical step in easing that micromanagement pain. A checkbox or some other way to automatically dump a mage's gems into lab storage every turn
EDIT: And I just reread the second article Boksi linked more carefully. Goodbye, A2W2S1N1, and good riddance! :D
Post by: Frumple on July 21, 2013, 03:08:08 am
Yes to auto-pool (particularly useful if they keep the blood hunting mechanics similar to what they are in D3), though. That and multiple-provice movement commands would be up there on my hoped-for UI improvements. Rally points would be nice, too~
I mean, an ideal for me would be able to set a commander+minion setup (with a set command for the commander to do while waiting for its troops to finish building, if necessary), and then tell it to go to X province (possibly via spell, if the commander's capable of it). And the commander'd just... start heading that way once its got the troops you queued up for it. All in pre-defined formations and everything. Double-plus bonus if you could set that on an empire wide basis, at least the formation+troop composition.
Similarly, having thug or SC templates would be goddamn awesome, doubly so if you can just click on one and it'd draw from available mages automatically. Like, you'd click on a province, click on a caster's commands, and one of them would be something like "SC Loadout" or some thematically appropriate nonsense. When you clicked on that and the desired template, the caster you're issuing the command to would do the summon, and idle mages (researching or actually idle ones, basically) elsewhere in your empire would go ahead and forge all the items you want for it. You'd have something similar for recruited critters. And you'd make the template straight from the chassis's status screen, dynamically, so you could see exactly what it'd look like at the end, as well as the full list of what your nation is capable of forging.
Just... something like that.
Post by: Alkhemia on July 21, 2013, 03:23:18 am
Post by: Karlito on August 20, 2013, 09:13:44 am
Post by: nenjin on August 20, 2013, 09:15:56 am
Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and preorder....on Desura. *grumble*
Post by: Bitoru on August 29, 2013, 08:52:22 pm
Post by: Bluerobin on August 29, 2013, 10:31:55 pm
Post by: Mrhappyface on September 01, 2013, 08:23:23 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/UGbpebX.jpg)
Post by: Mrhappyface on September 01, 2013, 09:21:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Bluerobin on September 01, 2013, 09:22:03 pm
MA Caelum seems to be identical, except there are some new pretenders and they can use the Ambush of Tigers spell for some reason.
Air bless now gives Precision and an air shield as the major bless, Nature gives HP with regen as a major bless, Death gives "Undying", which who knows what that does, and Blood gives blood vengeance as the major bless instead of death curse. My favorite thing might be the Demilich pretender, though. He's a tiny little immobile pile of bones with a skull on top.
Post by: Karlito on September 01, 2013, 11:04:33 pm
As I understand it "undying" gives extra hit points by allowing units to go into negative hits during a battle. Also worth noting that Dom4 blood vengeance doesn't stop a unit from taking damage like Dom3 blood vengeance did.
Post by: Neonivek on September 01, 2013, 11:08:14 pm
Since frankly one of the problems with Dominions 3 is that you will often never EVER use your other commanders because they are either useless or a very poor investment when next to the "better" choice.
But then again that was the general "Thing" with Dominions. They would intentionally include pitfalls and useless junk as a way to emphasize the plot.
Post by: Karlito on September 01, 2013, 11:10:33 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 02, 2013, 04:49:47 am
Post by: ScriptWolf on September 02, 2013, 05:40:50 am
Can anyone tell me what is new in the 4th game ? Or is it more or less the same but "with a touch of paint"
Post by: nenjin on September 02, 2013, 06:44:00 am
Hard to say whether that's worth $35 to you. They haven't systemically changed the game. The Beta screen says something to the effect of "Tutorial is on the way. If you've played Dom 3 you'll figure it out."
I was on the fence but now that I've pulled the trigger I'm happy. Already hoping someone is going to do a Random for this version.
Post by: Mrhappyface on September 02, 2013, 07:48:42 am
I kinda miss my MA "Alive but still kinda undead" Ermor.They're called Sceleria now.
Post by: MoLAoS on September 02, 2013, 12:01:26 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 02, 2013, 12:24:59 pm
Post by: Culise on September 02, 2013, 01:22:01 pm
As for myself, I forgot how bad I was at this game; I'm actually losing to the Normal AI. It's not that the AI is much better (though it does seem to be a touch smarter), it's just that I'm that bad. <_<
Post by: snelg on September 02, 2013, 03:05:03 pm
I like the game, but it feels very similar to the third game, hopefully they keep updating it after the release like last time. The thrones and team-stuff is interesting.
Post by: nenjin on September 02, 2013, 03:13:12 pm
I kinda miss my MA "Alive but still kinda undead" Ermor.They're called Sceleria now.
Oh hey, thanks. I started playing at like 3am last night and barely had to time to read through the nations.
Really digging the new music. Bums me out they didn't make the soundtrack available, I'd like to throw these tracks in with my other mega Dominions playlist.
The game isn't much different than Dom 3 (has all the same music from the previous one, except maybe some battle music), but I do appreciate the improvements I'm seeing. Little things like, being able to see a list of Pretenders you've created in each era for what nations. Magic paths shown on the unit tile on the map view. I was hoping the map generator had improved from creating landforms a little more reliably, but it's still pretty random (and still takes at least 2 to 3 minutes to generate at map the size of Glory of the Gods.) But there's a couple new variables in there, wrapping worlds, ect...
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As for myself, I forgot how bad I was at this game; I'm actually losing to the Normal AI. It's not that the AI is much better (though it does seem to be a touch smarter), it's just that I'm that bad. <_<
This is why I play easy against the AI. They're slow enough I can take my time, expand at my pace, not have to risk good armies to rush across the map. At least in Dom 4 you have a prayer of keeping up with the AI in terms of unit production. (Although getting those units where they need to go is still an issue.)
Post by: E. Albright on September 02, 2013, 10:35:10 pm
What with leadership giving morale bonuses now, national commanders that aren't mages are slightly more useful. I'm not sure how viable those "slow to recruit" ubermages will be though.
It's not just that the better leaders give morale boosts; they also let you have more squads w/o incurring penalties. Still, I rarely want more than 2 squads if I've only got 40 or 50 troops. I suppose the real advantage to national leaders is not having a net morale penalty when using the more ergonomic squad configurations for troops without Formation.
Plus, for some nations it's a total non-issue. Say, e.g., you're LA T'ien Ch'i and don't wanna waste a fort turn to get that sweet, sweet 120 troop/4 squad/+2 morale leadership from a Khan? No problem. Khans and non-sacred cavalry are recruit anywhere now. Although that means that no one but someone down to their last 85 gold will ever buy a General. I've probably missed some of the terrain-specific ones, but here's a rough list of non-fort recruits, some of which can't be built in forts:
Spoiler: Early Era (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Middle Era (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Late Era (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on September 03, 2013, 02:17:12 am
Seems like they nerfed the shit out of Dom 3's frailty rates. Playing MA Ermor I was used to half of my starting Grand Thaumaturgs not going more than 2 years before rotting apart. I'm on Year 6 with MA Sceleria and I've had one guy who caught a disease and died of from it. (And who didn't resurrect with Twiceborn, grrr, he was a Hero!)
Post by: E. Albright on September 03, 2013, 07:16:02 am
Post by: nenjin on September 03, 2013, 09:24:19 am
Post by: Mrhappyface on September 03, 2013, 10:18:27 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 03, 2013, 02:33:45 pm
I think +1?
Any positive Growth at all makes a huge difference in limiting deaths from old age.
Post by: nenjin on September 03, 2013, 03:55:07 pm
I think +1?
Any positive Growth at all makes a huge difference in limiting deaths from old age.
It was typically what I ran in Dom3 as well. So that's why I was wondering if anything changed.
Post by: Culise on September 03, 2013, 09:31:28 pm
Notes:
1. Rather more chokepoint-heavy - bridges to cross rivers become rather important, as do a handful of very large passes that are open year-round.
2. I tried to make every provinces accessible year-round from at least one path; hence why a few rivers and passes are still passable.
3. Provinces that occupy major passes (rather than connections across the passes) were connected to one side or the other based more or less on whim.
Feel free to post thoughts and fixes.
Post by: E. Albright on September 03, 2013, 10:07:25 pm
Post by: Culise on September 03, 2013, 10:14:17 pm
Post by: Farce on September 04, 2013, 01:13:26 am
Eventuallyyyy.
Post by: nenjin on September 05, 2013, 10:25:32 pm
I could roll back a whole year but eh, I hate repeating that much time in Dominions.
The game hasn't fundamentally changed, but some of the changes are nice, especially for MP where things are less staid and predictable. Between fully fortified castles, which are ridiculously tough w/o spells and magic items and siege breakers, and the new province defense system, defense really has never been easier. In SP the game largely feels like it hasn't changed much, but all the improvements are good...if slightly underwhelming. I think MP is where the bulk of the changes will be felt the most.
Post by: deoloth on September 11, 2013, 05:38:53 pm
$20 Is the normal price, currently discounted to $15.99!
Have fun, make some gods, burn some non-believers!
Post by: Karlito on September 11, 2013, 06:31:02 pm
Post by: tompliss on September 12, 2013, 01:39:34 am
And Dom3 already have mods ...
Post by: Frumple on September 12, 2013, 07:15:11 am
Post by: nenjin on September 12, 2013, 12:02:57 pm
Currently going for 35 on Desura. D3 is ~16 on steam with the sale, 20 normally. Price is a lot more reasonable this time around. I'd probably expect a fairly decent sale for D4... maybe next summer or christmas? Not too long, really. Illwinter's gotten a lot more savvy about pricing since they ditched shrapnel, heh. Or at least whoever's handling the price for 'em.
That really remains to be seen. Putting your 9 year old game on Steam at a discount isn't exactly proof that they'll follow suit like most gaming companies and start discounting at 3 months.
Post by: Knave on September 12, 2013, 12:58:24 pm
Currently going for 35 on Desura. D3 is ~16 on steam with the sale, 20 normally. Price is a lot more reasonable this time around. I'd probably expect a fairly decent sale for D4... maybe next summer or christmas? Not too long, really. Illwinter's gotten a lot more savvy about pricing since they ditched shrapnel, heh. Or at least whoever's handling the price for 'em.
That really remains to be seen. Putting your 9 year old game on Steam at a discount isn't exactly proof that they'll follow suit like most gaming companies and start discounting at 3 months.
True, but if we look at CoE 3 I think we see that illwinter is much more willing to go the discount route to reach a wider audience. Started at $30 about a year ago and now is available for $10 on steam and has been featured in game bundles before. I've also seen Dominions 3 discounted to as low as 7.50 at times on Gamersgate.
I'm quite certain that their decision to self publish CoE3 was the main impetuous to not renew their publishing deal with Shrapnel as that is a publishing company that I feel is trapped in the past when it comes to pricing of it's 'niche' games. The high price kept a lot of potential audience away from the game despite it being their most popular seller.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 12, 2013, 01:21:28 pm
Am I the only one wary of the relatively scant -at-a-glance improvements of dominions 4 over 3?
Post by: Karlito on September 12, 2013, 06:44:26 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 12, 2013, 11:45:28 pm
TBH Illwinter games tends to market it's products at obscenely expensive prices.
Am I the only one wary of the relatively scant -at-a-glance improvements of dominions 4 over 3?
A lot of the historically obscene pricing was Illwinter's prior publishers. As soon as they moved Dom3 away from Shrapnel Games (which apparently happened as soon as the contracts finally expired), the price dropped something like 40%.
I'm happy with the level of improvements. It's not a paradigm shift, but there's a lot of small changes, and a few reasonably-sized ones. Additionally, as Karlito points out, there will be plenty more incremental stuff to come post-release, and past experience suggests it will all come in free patches.
Post by: Alkhemia on September 15, 2013, 10:10:02 am
Edited: for being high and not typing in english.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 15, 2013, 01:41:29 pm
Post by: Karlito on September 15, 2013, 02:33:59 pm
Post by: Bluerobin on September 15, 2013, 02:42:33 pm
Post by: Empty on September 16, 2013, 05:30:48 pm
Though it seems the AI is still as weak as it was in Dom3. Buying indie troops left and right.
Post by: E. Albright on September 16, 2013, 06:12:37 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 16, 2013, 06:26:26 pm
Post by: Alkhemia on September 16, 2013, 10:28:11 pm
Post by: gman8181 on September 17, 2013, 12:40:24 pm
I like the nerf to the magic site spells so that they only has a 5 providence range.
NOOO, that's more micromanaging. Dominions has enough of that to begin with and unless you can now have your mages auto wander around searching, I'm mildly disappointed.
Post by: E. Albright on September 17, 2013, 02:29:14 pm
...
...
Except for Augury, none of them have 5. They're all 3 or 4. Well, um, and Auspex is 2.
(Acashic Record is 10, though. So if you want to go all-out, it can still hit most of the map.)
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 17, 2013, 02:40:29 pm
(Acashic Record is 10, though. So if you want to go all-out, it can still hit most of the map.)Only it's no longer a site-searching spell.
Also, there are items that increase ritual range.
I agree it's kinda more micromanagement-ish, but it's still an interesting new change.
Post by: Mrhappyface on September 17, 2013, 02:46:14 pm
Bowl a Blood Blo 2
Haruspex Thau 3
Augury Thau 3
Gnome Lore Thau 4
Auspex Thau 4
Dark Knowledge Con 3
Voice of Apsu Con 4
Voice of Tiamat Con 5
Acashic Knowledge Con 6
All of them require two in their respective paths, except for Dark Knowledge, Bowl of Blood, Arcane Probing (only 1) and Acashic Knowledge (3 astral)
Post by: E. Albright on September 17, 2013, 04:57:54 pm
Only it's no longer a site-searching spell.
Also, there are items that increase ritual range.
I agree it's kinda more micromanagement-ish, but it's still an interesting new change.
Oops, right, I meant Knowledge, not Record.
There are also sites and thrones that increase ritual range, and some units (mostly pretenders, but still) who get a boost, too. The most interesting part of the change isn't really the site search spells, though; it's all the other overland rituals. Although there are scale issues based on map sizes. They have discussed the idea of allowing maps to modify ranges - it's not w/o precedent, as the next version or so should have map options to change sailing range.
Post by: etgfrog on September 18, 2013, 03:19:55 am
On another note... Lemuria(late age) is interesting since majority of their troops are ethereal and freespawn wherever you have a temple(some do free spawn is areas you dont but those tend to be a bit weak), main downside to them is that they slowly drop population to 0 in any territory they have control of. So most other nations would have to bring items that give supply to be able to effectively siege their castles
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2013, 11:41:39 am
Post by: Neonivek on September 18, 2013, 11:44:16 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2013, 12:46:06 pm
Post by: etgfrog on September 18, 2013, 02:35:59 pm
Post by: Empty on September 20, 2013, 08:32:37 am
My fully kitted bane lord got done in by 10ish low tier troops :P
Post by: gman8181 on September 20, 2013, 11:28:22 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 20, 2013, 11:34:51 am
Post by: Bluerobin on September 20, 2013, 07:30:42 pm
Whoa. My MA Caelian High Seraphs take two turns to train now, but they have a default 17 research ability plus they double the magic scales research bonus. Oh and the lightning they throw stuns everything nearby as well as doing good single target damage.
Edit: Hmm... that doubling might not be strictly accurate. High Seraphs get a 10% chance at a bonus magic path and it looks like the research bonus accompanying that bonus research path is multiplied by the magic scales (2). My A3 W3 High Seraph has 19 research, but my A3 W2 S2 one has 21. Still tons of research, but they take 2 turns to train.
Post by: gman8181 on September 21, 2013, 09:47:55 pm
Blood slaves auto transferring to the lab is nice, even though the removal of tax control makes blood hunting overall more difficult.
Some interesting new blood spells like blood feast, blood fecundity and blood vortex.
Changes to commanders are welcome and I actually will on occasion recruit non mages now.
Changed luck spell is interesting in that it's still useful for casting on chaff units.
Terracotta army is nice because it synergizes well with fire evocations and actually uses fire gems if you have an abundance.
Not sure why there needs to be distill gold, transmute fire, alchemical transmutation and earth gem alchemy. Two would have sufficed imo. Can't even argue that the lesser spells still have a use late game unlike some other low level spells.
Wouldn't personally say the AI has gotten harder. Beating them back quite easily with several small armies of EA Ermor's levies backed by augurs casting body ethereal and haven't lost more than a few units each battle. Actually since they don't have the huge chaff armies anymore, I don't even have to use as many units because fatigue isn't as much of an issue. :P
Does horror seed actually work now?
It seems like thrones of ascension require a priest level 3 which is kind of annoying for nations without those being recruitable. No, I'd rather not have to move my prophet around everywhere and I might as well kiss my sanity goodbye if I'm playing as an immobile god without a prophet around.
Post by: etgfrog on September 22, 2013, 10:53:29 am
Post by: hexedmagica on September 23, 2013, 03:28:43 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 23, 2013, 03:41:49 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 23, 2013, 05:43:27 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 29, 2013, 10:13:58 pm
Post by: gman8181 on September 29, 2013, 10:23:30 pm
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on October 03, 2013, 03:38:03 pm
Post by: Mrhappyface on October 27, 2013, 11:51:44 am
Post by: deoloth on December 06, 2013, 04:28:16 am
Link Here! (http://store.steampowered.com/app/259060/)
(Edit: Normal Price $35, Discount $29.75)
15% off till the 12th.
Loved Dom 3, though never got on the online scene. I'll likely give it a try on dom 4 when I get it, though that likely wont be till January as I am broke this month.
I am rather curious...
All the same empires make it?
Anyone get cut or any additions?
As far as I know I kept up with the patches when I last played (6-7 months ago?)
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 06, 2013, 04:58:56 am
-Ermor has been changed a bit. Now it's called "Lemuria", and is full of ghosts(some immortal), basically.
MA
-There's another water nation called "Pelagia", but it seems similar to Oceania, as far as I can tell.
-The Carrion Woods path of Pangea has been split into a separate nation called "Asphodel".
-Dom3 MA Ermor is now called "Sceleria", while the old LA Ermor has been moved to MA.
EA
-Machaka now has also an EA variety. Elephants, lions etc, rather than spiders.
-Phoenicians-inspired "Berytos", mixing a bit of Hinnom and the new Machaka, plus sailing.
-and Pelagia again.
Post by: deoloth on December 06, 2013, 05:10:19 am
I think I like the idea of more water happenings... How is Oceania now? I only tried them once or twice, however from reading fourms I got the feeling that people considered them underpowered in Dom 3.
I tended to play mostly in the MA, I think I only have a few games in LA, maybe several in EA. I was always fond of Tien and Man, though Ryleth and C'tis were sometimes fun to play, and I had at least a few dozen games played. Not sure how my skills would compare to others, but my games typically had all A.I.s set to difficult with 3 or 4 set to mighty.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 06, 2013, 05:36:50 am
Post by: Culise on December 06, 2013, 11:03:41 am
It's also worth noting that LA Lemuria is the old Soul Gates Ermor (or rather, Sceleria; you'd think that the thaumaturges would have learned after destroying one empire, but no, they did it twice), the same way that Asphodel is the Carrion Woods Pangaea. What I love most of the new additions are the Rus, myself; the Vanarus were added to MA as a precursor to the LA Bogarus, and there are clear plans for an EA Rus as well that will likely be pre-conquest or shortly after conquest by the Scandinavian-equivalents.
EDIT: Oh, and some other major gameplay changes:
1. Magic has been deemphasized in the early game. Between formations for regular units, a different scaling system for magical research costs, and slow-recruitment options for stronger mages, it'll take longer to get to the point where you can drop game-shattering spells for maximum shenanigans.
2. Thrones of Creation. Capture these to win the game, if you have that victory condition enabled. Each one gives you particular bonuses or sometimes penalties, which means you have to decide if you want to take it.
3. The power graphs can be limited in the game settings, emphasizing effective scouting and spying even more.
Post by: Caz on December 06, 2013, 12:05:39 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 06, 2013, 06:01:34 pm
It's also worth noting that LA Lemuria is the old Soul Gates Ermor (or rather, Sceleria; you'd think that the thaumaturges would have learned after destroying one empire, but no, they did it twice), the same way that Asphodel is the Carrion Woods Pangaea. What I love most of the new additions are the Rus, myself; the Vanarus were added to MA as a precursor to the LA Bogarus, and there are clear plans for an EA Rus as well that will likely be pre-conquest or shortly after conquest by the Scandinavian-equivalents.
As long as there are dual wielding/zweihänders Chud 'zerkers, I'll roll them. On the other hand I read somewhere by the devs that they'd like more human nations in EA. Whether that cuts out the chuds -basically humans+ statwise- or not I don't know. But yeah, I'm definitely glad that there's more Rus on the way.
After that the game only needs an arabic and turkic nations and I'll be jolly.
Post by: Karlito on December 06, 2013, 06:05:34 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 06, 2013, 09:21:30 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 07, 2014, 08:02:34 am
So apparently this thing's at 66% discount on gamersgate. That's 8,5€. Don't know the current exchange rates but probably not much more than that for dollars either.
No idea how long it's going to stay that low though.
Post by: tompliss on January 07, 2014, 09:50:45 am
Post by: Wiles on January 07, 2014, 01:00:27 pm
Also, just an FYI, you can use the serial from gamersgate to activate it on steam if you want (it doesn't mention it on the gamersgate page).
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 07, 2014, 01:06:43 pm
Just remember to change it back once the sale ends. That is, if you feel like doing it.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 07, 2014, 03:22:51 pm
Post by: woosholay on January 07, 2014, 04:08:19 pm
Post by: Tnx on January 07, 2014, 04:13:06 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 07, 2014, 04:13:27 pm
Post by: TripJack on January 07, 2014, 05:33:21 pm
What? Where is it 6 bucks?yes do tell
Post by: deoloth on January 07, 2014, 05:51:59 pm
What? Where is it 6 bucks?yes do tell
I would like to know as well...
Post by: dennislp3 on January 07, 2014, 05:53:31 pm
Post by: tompliss on January 07, 2014, 06:08:18 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 07, 2014, 06:15:08 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 07, 2014, 06:21:46 pm
Still, if it seems like Bay12 just doesn't have the manpower for four games, you can always check the official multiplayer forum (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/board/arena-of-the-gods-mp-games). Often enough there's a newbie friendly game starting up.
Either way, I'd fiddle with the game for a week or so before thinking about multiplayer. Just to get the very very basic mechanics down. You don't need to know about advanced late game tactics or minmaxed early-to-midgame transitions and whatnot to have fun, but the interface is a minor hurdle. Nothing compared to dwarf fortress but it's there.
In fact I think about a week of fiddling was what I had before I thrust myself into my first multi. And there I am, still alive. Teetering on the edge of a razor to be sure, but still alive.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 07, 2014, 07:14:42 pm
Post by: Tnx on January 07, 2014, 11:28:41 pm
Post by: Bitoru on January 07, 2014, 11:32:15 pm
Nevermind I can't read. :-\
Post by: woosholay on January 08, 2014, 01:54:54 am
price seems to differ from region to region
Post by: lavenders2 on January 08, 2014, 02:42:08 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 08, 2014, 06:43:06 am
I got wrecked by the mighty difficulty AI... Everywhere I see are complaints of the AI being bad. Where does that put me?
The difficulty is pretty standard TBS fare, higher difficulties give much better bonuses to the AI. So it isn't that good but it is strong if you set it that way.
Plus at this point the AI probably knows the game better than you do :P
Post by: RexMundi on January 08, 2014, 07:16:37 am
Post by: Boksi on January 08, 2014, 07:37:23 am
All the AI does is recruit hordes of units and send them at you. It doesn't do proper thugs or make good use of magic or use elite units to their fullest potential, which is why it's not considered very good, but a new player can have a difficult time dealing with all those units nevertheless.I got wrecked by the mighty difficulty AI... Everywhere I see are complaints of the AI being bad. Where does that put me?
The difficulty is pretty standard TBS fare, higher difficulties give much better bonuses to the AI. So it isn't that good but it is strong if you set it that way.
Plus at this point the AI probably knows the game better than you do :P
Post by: tompliss on January 08, 2014, 08:41:57 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 08, 2014, 12:06:16 pm
I missed the sale, huh?
I guess I did to, I was gunna buy it today :(
Post by: Tnx on January 08, 2014, 01:27:29 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 08, 2014, 02:03:47 pm
Yomi, not so much. Yomi is a complicated nation which may well be looking at some rebalancing down the road.
The giant nations (Hinnom and its MA/LA counterparts, Jotanheim, Fomoria) are fairly good. If a player gives them a decent bless, they can send their sacred giants rampaging about merrily, and even without that they're usually pretty straightforward. I'd avoid Hinnomnomnom at the start, though.
Abysia and Marignon are straightforward to play as well; solid national troops plus strong Fire mages.
The Roman nations (Scelaria, Pythium) are also good starter nations: solid national troops in the legions, plus strong mages. They can give you a good base to start experimenting with some more advanced magical notions. I'd avoid the undead Roman nations, though; Ermor and Lemuria are at once too complicated and too simple to be a good choice when you're just starting.
There are a number of other newbie-friendly nations, but by the time you've messed about with all of these you should be comfortable just picking something at random.
[Edit: Man. How could I have forgotten Man? Man (particularly MA Man) may not be as "blunt" as Ulm, but it's still a very straightforward nation - longbows, spearmen, and knights - that's well-suited for a new player to the point where I'd be remiss not to mention them explicitly.]
Post by: Karlito on January 08, 2014, 06:55:15 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 08, 2014, 06:56:10 pm
I learned Dom3 playing underwater nations. EA and MA Atlantis/R'lyeh aren't terrible on land, and the AI will have a hard time attacking you beneath the waves.
True, while you probably won't win a game as an underwater race online.
You can hold on for quite a bit before the other races start beating down your door.
Post by: E. Albright on January 08, 2014, 09:57:40 pm
(While I learned Dominions with land nations (specifically Ulm and Marignon, back before there was all this "different ages" nonsense), I learned Dominions MP with Atlantis. There's something to be said for that; as Neonivek points out, even if you're losing you'll at least be able to last a while...)
Post by: E. Albright on January 08, 2014, 10:13:48 pm
So.. what's a good/easy early nation for newbies?.
Oops, just noticed that one single word.
For EA in particular, I'd say (in no particular order) Abysia, Ermor, Fomoria, Niefelhiem, or Berytos. The other 'hiems or Tir'na'Org wouldn't be awful, either. If you're looking to try aquatic, go with Pelagia or Atlantis.
Post by: Tnx on January 08, 2014, 10:40:34 pm
Post by: Frumple on January 08, 2014, 10:56:14 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 08, 2014, 11:09:27 pm
Post by: Karlito on January 08, 2014, 11:22:11 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2014, 07:37:50 am
http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM4TA/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascension
Makes me wonder, why would I buy anything off-sale these days.
Post by: Ultimuh on January 09, 2014, 07:52:44 am
AT first I did not know what I was doing, as the tutorial required me to read some documents (I don't have a printer at home).
Fortunately, I watched an LP on Youtube to get hang of the basics.
While I am not sure what nation to start playing as, I did try a little bit with the Middle Age's monkey people.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2014, 08:16:29 am
Got the game, and It's quite a nice gem among colored rocks.
AT first I did not know what I was doing, as the tutorial required me to read some documents (I don't have a printer at home).
Fortunately, I watched an LP on Youtube to get hang of the basics.
While I am not sure what nation to start playing as, I did try a little bit with the Middle Age's monkey people.
You'll overcome the hurdles of the interface and general concepts with most nations, but E. Albright made a pretty good post regarding starter nations: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127417.msg4897214#msg4897214
Personally I'd shy away from underwater and blood magic nations, but that's just me. If you're like me you just pick the nation with lore/background that grabs you and roll away with them.
Post by: Frumple on January 09, 2014, 10:16:11 am
So now it's 50% off (12,50€):Because you want the company selling the game to get more money from it, mostly. Prevalence of sales lets you kinda' pick your price point -- i.e., how much you appreciate the people selling and/or making the game -- these days, which is kinda' nice. A more stratified humble-bundle type thing, spread out over months and years, ha.
http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM4TA/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascension
Makes me wonder, why would I buy anything off-sale these days.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 09, 2014, 11:12:16 am
Also: Holy shit, complicated.
Post by: E. Albright on January 09, 2014, 11:40:01 am
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 11:59:30 am
Also: Holy shit, complicated.
At first blush, yes. But only if you really want to understand the math behind what happens. Otherwise, I think Dominions is actually pretty straightforward. What there is to learn, is a ton of small rules that, when they scale up create problems if you don't know what's going on.
So, for example. When you q units to build, there's two ways to do it. You can spend up to the available resources of the province and repeat that build order every turn....
Or you order MORE units than the province resources can support per turn, and basically spend the gold ahead of time.
How this manifests in game though is a huge disconnect between your "Income" and "Upkeep" values. You'll look at it thinking you should be making 1000 gold per turn when you're only making 600. That's because the game doesn't state your recruitment costs anywhere.
Not a huge deal for games in their first decade or so.....but when you're playing on a 400 province map and you're 20 years into your game, you can easily lose track of where you're recruiting and end up going into the red. Then add Unrest reducing Income sprinkled liberally across your empire and yeah....
The other thing that takes some time to understand is how Dominion works, because there's lots of little rules and effects there. (Your troops have less morale when outside your pretender's dominion. Death dominion increases the likelihood of getting diseases afflictions. Pretenders don't automatically resurrect outside of their own dominion. Things of that nature.
Dominions isn't like, DF complex though. It is wonderfully supported by tooltips almost everywhere, which really helps. If you don't bother to try and understand what's going on during battles, Dom is fairly easy to learn. Intermediate level is where you start paying close attention to how your armies are built and what AI orders they're given.
Also, protip: Unless you're going to save scum, do. not. sweat. your. heroes. There are 100 ways for a commander to become crippled. I've done extensive testing through save scumming, and the simple fact is big battles = your best commanders getting trashed. They'll get cursed. They'll get horror marked. They'll lose an arm or become crippled. They'll get diseased. Early game it's not as likely (although the random Deer Shaman or w/e cursing/horror marking your guys is annoying as shit.) but late game the AI will, not necessarily kill them but reduce their effectiveness.
Almost all nations have ways to keep your heroes in tip-top fighting shape, but most are mid to late game solutions. For me heroes are one of the best parts of Dominions from an RPG aspect, but they're also the reason the game causes stress. When you've got a whole army of your best heroes bearing down on your opponent, and half of them exit the fight with one foot in the grave, it leaves you feeling kinda mad. There are only two things you really can't fix when it comes to heroes, and that's Cursing and Horror Marking. So just a fair warning. Early on, heroes seem amazing and nigh-invincible. Mid game though their frailties start to show.
(As an aside, fucking Twiceborn. Why, oh why, would I want a guy who is feebleminded, mute, crippled and missing an eye to resurrect in that state? A feebleminded wight mage? WTF? You can't even reliably get them to die in your dominion without specifically arranging an enemy province in your dominion for them to go zerg into. Such rage. It really undercuts my desire to play Sceleria, my favorite nation, because all my reborn heroes end up just as crippled as they were at the time of their death. I kinda figured Twiceborn would waive some of the stupid shit like Feebleminded.)
Post by: Frumple on January 09, 2014, 12:21:32 pm
[snip]As an aside, fucking Twiceborn.[snip]... roll a n5+ (or less, if boosters are involved) pretender, get that gift of health going? I think that still mostly works on undead. S'a nice global if you can poach it fast enough, anyway.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 12:41:34 pm
[snip]As an aside, fucking Twiceborn.[snip]... roll a n5+ (or less, if boosters are involved) pretender, get that gift of health going? I think that still mostly works on undead. S'a nice global if you can poach it fast enough, anyway.
Yeah, but compared to B2 and Blood Feast, there are easier, faster ways to save heroes from Affliction.
Plus, GoH doesn't automatically fix anything. It just increases the chances they will cure afflications. Blood Feast, on the other hand, has like a 90% chance to remove all afflictions on cast. For the small, small price of potentially a few eaten peasants per turn. (Used it close to 20 times in my current game, only 1 guy has gone cannibal.) Honestly, for 5 Blood Slaves, that spell is stupid good. It should easily cost 15.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 09, 2014, 12:49:15 pm
Also: I need to get into one of those multiplayer games. Singleplayer is brutal and long, it seems like it would be more fun to play a turn a day.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 12:58:41 pm
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Singleplayer is brutal and long, it seems like it would be more fun to play a turn a day.
I dunno, I prefer the pace. Starts very quick, turns are very quick, and then it slows down as your empire grows and you have more things to manage. It's epic. Province count is really what determines the speed of gameplay and how redonkulous armies can get.
There seems to be two schools of thought on Dom. One is small maps, quick gameplay. It really brings tactical choices to the fore. Which spells you shoot for first, what magic items you build, what kind of pretenders you make. Build orders and the like. Kind of like an RTS only being TBS. MP plays to specific builds and goals.
The other is long games of Dom, where everyone gets to fully explore their options as they expand their empires, everyone gets plenty of room to grow and breathe before they encounter enemy nations, and it all culminates in a 2 year-long slug fest. The downside is that in MP, once you've won a significant victory over an opponent, people tend to quit since it's an extreme uphill battle to recover from losing 3/4 of your armies in one conflict.
From an RPG perspective, I like singleplayer. You get to watch heroes develop, get to imagine stories around what happens. Plus......the AI isn't exactly brilliant, whereas players can and will put the screws to you. (I.e. attacking with a single disposable wizard so he can curse every single troop on the battlefield. Or casting Baleful Star or half a dozen other nasty spells on your best armies. Or sending in stealth infiltrators to undermine your dominion or attack behind your lines. Or using global enchantments that are game enders, like the one where all living things age at an accelerated rate.)
Post by: Toady Two on January 09, 2014, 01:07:50 pm
Also: I need to get into one of those multiplayer games. Singleplayer is brutal and long, it seems like it would be more fun to play a turn a day.
I'm playing my first PBEM multiplayer game and its much more enjoyable that single player or 1v1 blitzes I played with a friend. You actually have time plan things out and micro all your armies and thugs effectively.
I'm playing MA Ulm and doing reasonably well. The map is very crowded and there are wars left and right just barely past turn 10. Nations without a reputation for being overpowered/dangerous have a much easier time in multiplayer because diplomacy is easier. Our Ermor player got ganged up on from day 1. People hate Ermor for their popkill dominion and the fact that they often cast buttfucking global enchantments like Burden of Time. After this game I'm thinking about trying out LA Lemuria. I keep hearing that they are very weak with worse troops that MA Ermor and all of the diplomatic stigma. But legions of ghosts are so flavorful. I will try to think of a way to make them work in MP. One idea I had would be to rush an underwater province, build a castle there and cast Burden of Time then hide the caster underwater. it's hard to siege undead as it is and underwater it will be borderline impossible.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 09, 2014, 01:17:22 pm
And then Ermor came and undeadified me with about a thousand troops. I was playing as Ulm because evidently they are newb-friendly, but they also evidently are resources intensive which my dominion wasn't built for. So I ended up spending huge amounts of money getting defense on all my provinces (Since I didn't have anything else to spend the money on), which is exciting.
So then I slowly started losing. Ulm is interesting because since all the units cost so many resources, it seems like it's a good strategy to build as many troops in as many different provinces as possible, as (Correct me if I am wrong) Each province get's a certain amount of resources that disappear, so you want to use as much of it as possible. And I read somewhere that forts just grab resources from neighboring territories based on how much administration (Is that right? Does 45 administration mean 45% of the resources for neighboring provinces get yoinked and added to that province?)
Also, I have a few questions about movement. I had horsemen that said they had two world move points, but I could only get them to move one. How do I get them to move two? I checked to make sure their armies all had two movement as well. Also, I was playing on a map with streams, and it wouldn't let most units cross them (They had to use the bridge) but siege engineers could cross some of the rivers. Why is that? Also, does the fort resource yoinking work across rivers as well?
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 01:36:21 pm
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I had horsemen that said they had two world move points, but I could only get them to move one. How do I get them to move two? I checked to make sure their armies all had two movement as well.
2 things:
1. Mixed unit armies use the lowest movement available I believe. So if you have a mounted commander and gave him unmounted body guards, the whole army will move at their speed.
2. Terrain types. W/o Forest or Mountain (or Hill?) Survival, fast moving ground troops move at 1 through difficult terrain. This includes moving into terrain. So if you're second move would take you into a forest, you have to end your movement before the forest.
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I was playing on a map with streams, and it wouldn't let most units cross them (They had to use the bridge) but siege engineers could cross some of the rivers. Why is that?
So, as I understand it, rivers can only be crossed if a) it's mid or late winter and b) if the province has at least cold +1. So if your dominion means you're cold + 0 in winter, that river will never be crossable by regular units. That said, I think any unit with Water 1 can cross at any time? I dunno, those special terrain movement things seem inconsistent to me, but I'm probably missing something.
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Also, does the fort resource yoinking work across rivers as well?
Likewise, I'm not sure on this. But my thought would be no.
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Resources
Provinces always generate the same amount of resources each turn, and these resources are not stored. So yes, it makes sense to spend down a provinces' resources where possible. Gold is the limiting factor on whether or not you should do this.
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And then Ermor came and undeadified me with about a thousand troops.
Lots and lots of and lots of Priests set to "Hold or Cast A Spell/Cast Spells" will do a number on Ermor. I think one of their spells makes undead more resistant to banishment, but when you're facing 1000 undead, your priests effectively have an cheap AoE nuke they can cast every turn that will rip big chunks out of that army. I forget what the exact spell is but I think all Level 2+ priests can cast it. Or you can set the AI to just cast that spell repeatedly if you know you're going into a fight like that. (Cntrl + Number while hovering over a commander's orders allows you to save that preset. Then you just hover over their commands and hit (Number) to assign it. Very handy when you need several specific AI presets to deal with specific threats.)
PS- I've noticed a difference between Easy and Normal AI is how often it recruits/how big it makes its armies. Playing normal it is not uncommon for all nations in mid game to have several 1000 man armies out there. Coupled with the aggressive AI setting and it can be a real headache, because as soon as it punches through one of your high province defense borderlands.....it runs amok through the soft underbelly of your empire.
Province Defense is a real godsend. When I'm toe-to-toe with another nation, I always make sure I have a good amount of gold to plug gaps in my defenses when they break through. Amusingly, you can also use the absence of province defense to bait the AI into attacking where you want it to.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 09, 2014, 02:02:11 pm
While I am asking questions, here is a big one: What's a good build order? How many researchers should I get? How many scouts should I build?
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 02:29:18 pm
My perspective from SP comp stomps:
1. How many scouts is a matter of how much ground there is to cover and how advanced warning you feel you need that large armies are approaching. Scouting narrows down the possible army size from just casual observation (which can have it be at least 4x larger or smaller than it's actual size.) But it doesn't give you the truth always, and magic items can further deceive you. So. I stay pretty light on scouts. I usually have 2 to 3, one to go to every corner of the map to find out where the enemy dominions start. I also use them to scout Throne locations so I know what I can handle sooner rather than later.
The real question is....how many assassins do you need? Because for the most part, an Assassin is just a Scout with the power to assassinate, and there are several kinds of specialized assassins in the game. (EA Mictlan's expensive summonable assassin is MONEY.)
2. Researchers. In SP, it's to taste. I average about 8 to 10 researchers with feathers and skull mentors. That means it takes on average a year+ to research a new level in something, with half of my research going towards it. (I split between two researches at a time and just go down the list. I don't really specialize in SP as much as just do some of this and some of that. More I just want to see it all.) The nice thing about research is you can increase it very quickly. If your nation has even average researchers for a reasonable cost (aren't a top tier sacred unit that can only be built at your home province or something) you can triple or quadruple your research in under a year. For that reason, research takes a lower priority for me in the early game compared to: a) Getting heroes out there b) building troops c) capturing the surrounding provinces so I have some room to move and d) getting my guys on to Hall of Heroes list ASAP. In a 10 year game, a unit that got on the Hall of Heroes list in the first year is going to have GODLY stats for their perk. Like.....20+ magic resist, 35+ HP, 20+ Attack, Defense, ect.... It's how you can make a super combatant out of a low-tier commander.
3. Build order for me is usually 1. Best possible prophet, 2. Secondary Best Commander, 3. Best Mage, 4. Backup mages, repeat 2 - 4 until you've got a large enough army to roll through 5 provinces without stopping. (When I see more than a few enemy commanders on the Hall of Heroes, I start moving.) If your nation needs specific commander units (Reanmiators, Blood Hunters, Patrollers, what have you), that will change your build priorities.
For troops, that will come down to your nation but generally masses of cheap troops to start is preferable to smaller amounts of more expensive troops. Once you get those intial provinces captured, you start adding the elite troops to your existing ranks of weaker troops, until financially you can stop bothering with the weaker ones. (Again, SP here. I imagine in MP you get way more mileage out of weaker troops.)
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 09, 2014, 02:44:41 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 09, 2014, 02:56:50 pm
QuoteI had horsemen that said they had two world move points, but I could only get them to move one. How do I get them to move two? I checked to make sure their armies all had two movement as well.
2 things:
1. Mixed unit armies use the lowest movement available I believe. So if you have a mounted commander and gave him unmounted body guards, the whole army will move at their speed.
2. Terrain types. W/o Forest or Mountain (or Hill?) Survival, fast moving ground troops move at 1 through difficult terrain. This includes moving into terrain. So if you're second move would take you into a forest, you have to end your movement before the forest.
Another thing to note is that (most of the time) map-move only counts between friendly provinces that you control. When attacking enemy provinces your army has to start adjacent to the enemy province. Exceptions exist, but they rarely apply to the average grunt (unless you're playing Caelum or something). I don't know if that is the exact problem you were running into, but it's something to be aware of.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 02:59:49 pm
1. Guys to search for magic sites. I think you want at 3? in each path to guarantee you find most sites. This makes building a team (or a single unit) for site finding an expensive endeavor. I try to cover as many elements as possible with as many units as possible, to save on gems. This comes down to how diversified your nation's magic selection is. If you're stuck at 1 in a magic path, that's the best you can do and you'll have to start searching so you can build up enough gems to transmute them into gems for magic paths you don't have covered and upgrade. That whole process takes FOREVER. But it can't be ignored because gems are the lifeblood of magic items, summons, the good battle magic and global enchants.
2. Item forgers. If you're like me, you don't want to be constantly retasking your combat mages to make trinkets. So I always have at least 1, usually 2, dedicated forgers. In truth, a lot of items are only good for super combatants and they aren't absolutely necessary to succeed or win. Decking out commanders in full gear who are just going to sit behind their troops anyways is kind of a waste. But there are plenty of items you absolutely want to have. Research enhancing items, Leadership enhancing items, Supply Bonus and Magic Path/Spellcasting Enhancement items are all necessary to not struggle. Good robes will also keep your mages from dying to arrows and stupid stuff.
3. Dedicated mages. This is kind of a luxury of SP, but when I've whittled down an AI and am staring at their 300 unit defense force in their home province, I like to set up a mage to constantly bombard the province with spells to soften them up. Again, you might use existing combat mages, site finders or forgers to do this too since you've already invested in them, but as I said, I like not having to re-task people if I can help it because travel time sucks.
The order in which I listed them is the order in which I prioritize them. Site finders start happening for me once I've got 10 or so provinces under control and my armies are starting to capture the bulk of what will be the "homeland."
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I don't know if that is the exact problem you were running into, but it's something to be aware of.
Yep. Enemy terrain counts as difficult terrain for everyone, even flying invisible scouts. You cannot mass move across hostile terrain.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 09, 2014, 03:00:35 pm
Post by: Frumple on January 09, 2014, 03:18:01 pm
... regardless, empowerment is kinda' ridiculously expensive, and generally something you want to avoid if at all possible, at least potentially until very late game when you're chain wishing or something and rolling in so many gems you have literally nothing better to do with them. Blood empowerment is quite possibly the only potential exception to that, and that's only because blood income in a dedicated blood economy is pretty hefty. Still something you might do to get that one extra point of magic level needed to open up booster forging or something, but not something you'd do a lot, or repeatedly.
High domain early on is generally to supercharge a bless strat (i.e., get out more sacred units per turn) and/or go for/defend against an early dominion kill. Also potentially to spread dominion effects (High death, ferex) around to deter invasion or whathaveyou.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 03:19:33 pm
Basically what Frumple said.
Plus, higher magic paths is just that fewer gems you need to spend in game. Once you're getting +20 to +30 gems a turn, the cost isn't so prohibitive. But it takes a long time to get there and by the time you're pulling in that kind of gem income, you've got all sorts of other expensive projects competing for those gems too.
Post by: Karlito on January 09, 2014, 03:46:14 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 04:04:38 pm
Otherwise, investing in magic at Pretender Creation, to me, is all about the availability of sacred units for your nation. I think it pays higher dividends in smaller maps where there is less distance between your capital and the action, as most sacred units can only be recruited there. (Or at least, the ones worth it. Mictlan has Jaguar Men but they kinda suck compared to the guys wearing actual armor.)
Post by: Bluerobin on January 09, 2014, 04:06:25 pm
Mictlan has Jaguar Men but they kinda suck compared to the guys wearing actual armor.
Hehe. It's funny because Mictlan's jaguarmen are some of the best sacreds. I've never used them myself, but I think just about any double bless makes them really scary.
Post by: Frumple on January 09, 2014, 04:07:23 pm
I forget, is there a spell that makes all troops on the battlefield sacred for the duration?That would be ridiculously powerful if there was, hah. There definitely wasn't in D3, and I haven't noticed anything like that in D4, yet.
Re: Mict's Jaggies: Throw a fire bless on 'em or somethin'. Tear through armor like they tear through everything else, unless they got nerfed in D4 or something. Ridiculous bless beasties in D3, though.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 09, 2014, 04:09:37 pm
I forget, is there a spell that makes all troops on the battlefield sacred for the duration?
I don't think so, but if it does exists it's probably a very high-level spell, both in terms of research and magic levels. Should probably go through the manual and check.
Mictlan has Jaguar Men but they kinda suck compared to the guys wearing actual armor.
Hehe. It's funny because Mictlan's jaguarmen are some of the best sacreds. I've never used them myself, but I think just about any double bless makes them really scary.
Re: Mict's Jaggies: Throw a fire bless on 'em or somethin'. Tear through armor like they tear through everything else, unless they got nerfed in D4 or something. Ridiculous bless beasties in D3, though.
If I remember correctly, the Jaguar warriors are kinda glass cannons, but their ability to transform into a werecreature gives them much needed durability, since they always take at least two hits to kill. Or something along those lines.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 04:10:56 pm
Although I will say it's sort of impressive to have a legion of jaguar with 4+ afflictions a piece that are still fighting. Their commitment to the Teotl is truly admirable.
Post by: Culise on January 09, 2014, 04:12:09 pm
I forget, is there a spell that makes all troops on the battlefield sacred for the duration?I don't think there are spells that make even one unit sacred. For mass Bless, you can use Divine Blessing, which is accessible to Priest 3 - so, basically, just your Prophet for most nations. For equips, you can use Shroud of the Battle Saint if you have Astral 1, 5 gems, and have researched Con 4, which occupies the Armor slot on a commander and makes that commander sacred - this is mostly used to get E9 blesses on non-sacred mages, since nations with common S1 mages are also typically compatible with communion strategies.
Otherwise, investing in magic at Pretender Creation, to me, is all about the availability of sacred units for your nation. I think it pays higher dividends in smaller maps where there is less distance between your capital and the action, as most sacred units can only be recruited there. (Or at least, the ones worth it. Mictlan has Jaguar Men but they kinda suck compared to the guys wearing actual armor.)
EDIT: Also, regarding Jaguars - F9W9. W9 gives Quickness, which gives blessed units an extra attack and 50% more action points per turn. F9 gives Flaming Weapons, which is armor-piercing, magical, and reduces the target's AP as well. Turns sacred soldiers into little buzzsaws.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 09, 2014, 04:13:53 pm
I don't think there are spells that make even one unit sacred. For mass Bless, you can use Divine Blessing, which is accessible to Priest 3 - so, basically, just your Prophet for most nations. For equips, you can use Shroud of the Battle Saint if you have Astral 1, 5 gems, and have researched Con 4, which occupies the Armor slot on a commander and makes that commander sacred - this is mostly used to get E9 blesses on non-sacred mages, since nations with S1 priests are also compatible with communion strategies.
...
That's an incredibly smart idea, actually. I will have to keep that in mind for future use.
Post by: Frumple on January 09, 2014, 04:15:06 pm
I don't really see them decimating in D4, but maybe I just don't have the right blessings. (IIRC D4, N4, B4, A3.) They're relatively cheap for sacred troops compared to the armored ones, but they don't seem to last as long. The lack of armor means they get wounded pretty much instantly.Yeah, I think a W9 bless is fairly standard for th'jaggies, and possibly an F9 or somethin' and then additional junk. Lets 'em get in there and abuse that second form (which has multiple attacks and fairly high strength) even better. They're usually involved with a major bless or two, at least. Sometimes even three, banking on jaguar rush decimating everything (and a triple bless hoard of jaguar warriors will wreck serious face, especially before notable battlefield magic hits the floor) and blood saccing keeping domain issues under control before the utter crap scales wreck you.
Although I will say it's sort of impressive to have a legion of jaguar with 4+ afflictions a piece that are still fighting. Their commitment to the Teotl is truly admirable.
Post by: Karlito on January 09, 2014, 04:17:17 pm
I don't really see them decimating in D4, but maybe I just don't have the right blessings. (IIRC D4, N4, B4, A3.)
That bless is waaay too weak. The Air paths aren't even contributing. Try something like F9W9 and you'll be much more impressed.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 04:19:24 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 09, 2014, 04:23:09 pm
It's true, I don't think I've done a Pretender yet with 9 anything in their Blessing. Mostly because, like I said, I'm being a generalist and I think in a long SP the advantage from a beneficial dominion makes for a smoother game.
I'm pretty sure that Mictlan doesn't really need good scales. You can only recruit so Jaguars a turn, and I'm pretty sure that their middle/late game is focused on blood sacrificing anyways. So all they really need is good growth and the high-magic paths for early expansion until they can get the slaves flowing.
Post by: Toady Two on January 09, 2014, 04:24:46 pm
Post by: Culise on January 09, 2014, 04:33:58 pm
Claiming certain thrones can improve your bless. This is usually a bad thing because these thrones are useless for anything else so if you don't utilize sacreds then there is no point claiming them.To be fair, though, I'd still rather have a useless throne than a detrimental throne. Countries like Abysia, Mictlan, and C'tis loathe the Throne of Winter, while almost any nation that doesn't have a killing dominion will actively avoid claiming the Throne of Death.
Oh, by the bye, I thought I'd link these for people. New players might find them helpful, if they don't follow the official forums on Desura:
1. Dom4 Mod Inspector (http://dom4editor.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/inspector/index.html) - a data inspection tool to review spells, units, and equipment available in Dominions 4. Still being updated from Dominions 3, so it's not 100% accurate, but it's still highly useful.
2. Random Events (http://www.dom4minions.com/docs/events.html) - a review of all random events in Dominions 4, including the scales that unlock them. Useful for figuring out how to avoid things like that spontaneous rebellion, but long and somewhat spoilerriffic. A brief observation for people who don't want to review the whole thing:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 04:56:38 pm
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I'm pretty sure that Mictlan doesn't really need good scales. You can only recruit so Jaguars a turn, and I'm pretty sure that their middle/late game is focused on blood sacrificing anyways. So all they really need is good growth and the high-magic paths for early expansion until they can get the slaves flowing.
Again, I'm not doing a super specific "zerg the AI with sacreds" build. My army is compromised mostly of Moon Warriors and Archers. While I'm sure I'm undertilizing my sacreds by not just having whole armies of Jaguar men, i"m playing the rest of the game as a result.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2014, 06:00:06 pm
Consider that the default resources per turn for starter fort is 80. I'm playing Jomon currently and their archers cost 11g 25r. Excellent value for gold but try massing those guys early on even with production bonuses. Not going to happen. What do the jags cost instead, 5r or so? Pittance in comparison. Of course, jags are good units worth blessing so even without the free points they'd be looking to get some blessings.
Re: magic sites
Vast majority of sites are 1 or 2, leaning towards 1. So level 3 searcher, while definitely nice, is a bit overkill. If you get mages with 2 in something that's usually good enough. Even 1 is worth searching with if it's all you've got.
So now it's 50% off (12,50€):Because you want the company selling the game to get more money from it, mostly.
http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM4TA/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascension
Makes me wonder, why would I buy anything off-sale these days.
That's what giveaways are for :P
Post by: E. Albright on January 09, 2014, 06:03:43 pm
(movement stuff)
Movement in Dom4 considers not just the destination province for calculation terrain cost, but the origin province as well (i.e., you're assumed to start in the center of the province rather than its far edge). IIRC, the cost to move one is the average of the two.
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(River stuff)
Rivers (blue inter-province connections) can be crossed if both destination and origin are Cold 1 or higher. This usually means all winter, but in particularly hot/cold dominions that's not true. Fliers and amphibious units can always cross them (though note that mixed groups of these can't; a flier leading amphibious troops can't cross an unfrozen river. This may or may not be Working As Designed.)
Mountain passes (red inter-province connections) can be crossed if both destination and origin are Heat 1 or higher. This usually means all summer, but in particularly hot/cold dominions that's not true. Fliers and mountain survival units can always cross them (IDK if the same cavaets about mixed groups apply here, but I'd not be surprised.)
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Also, does the fort resource yoinking work across rivers as well?
It does. It doesn't work land-to-sea, or vice-versa, but no mere river or frozen pass will stop the taxman!
Post by: E. Albright on January 09, 2014, 06:07:56 pm
Double/triple/quadruple major bless is not the only way to play Mictlan, though it seems to be by far the most popular way. One reason I think Mictlan takes a bless so often is because it's one of those nations with "free" points. They can take sloth 1-3 quite willy nilly whereas some nations are more or less required to take at least a little production to get some troops out.
Honestly, no. It's the damned Jaguar Warriors. They're some of the absolute best sacreds in the game, and in both EA and LA they're recruit-anywhere. That they're a fairly low-resource certainly helps, but it's their recruit-anywhere availability coupled with ungodly strength that makes them such a favorite with ruinous scales and double/triple major blesses.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 06:16:25 pm
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Re: magic sites
Having played about 4 good, lengthy games in Dom 4 now, I feel like Magic Sites have actually gotten....worse? In the sense I see far fewer of the rarer ones that I used to. Which I assumed meant that the path requirements had been bumped on them. Or have they just simply reduced the # of truly interesting sites per game? I like that they come up with essentially 4 names for each basic gem site, but that was like one of the funnest parts of Dom 3 for me was hunting for new and not-yet-seen sites. So far, I've been a bit disappointed in Dom 4 at the same site frequency, 55%.
I guess Akashic Knowledge will eventually reveal all.
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That they're a fairly low-resource certainly helps, but it's their recruit-anywhere availability coupled with ungodly strength that makes them such a favorite with ruinous scales and double/triple major blesses.
11 base strength is godly? The actual weapon damage IS pretty nice but their unblessed stat line is not anything to write home about. Maybe in Jaguar form but.....I've observed plenty of battles where a variety of enemies went toe to toe with them, and what won it was numbers. I guess I'll have to try an actual bless build to see how much face I roll with them.
For reference, I'm looking at a Jaguar Warrior right now who lost an arm and therefore can't wield his sword club. Because they're so lightly armored they end up crippled very easily, something Jaguar form doesn't solve.
Post by: Frumple on January 09, 2014, 06:22:56 pm
And then the blood economy starts rolling in and oh gods, the everything.
As for afflictions, iirc form shifting like they do actually does have some sort of beneficial effect to it, if my memory's not failing me (though for the life of me I can't remember what, and could be mixing things up with some other piece of errata.). Plus... doesn't the jag form have regen? Which helps keep 'em from racking up, anyway. Could be mixing it up with the skinshifters (Which are very similar! Just non-sacred.) with the regen, though..
E: Woah, critical memory fail. They're base 13 str in jag form. Still have multiple attacks (good ol' bite/claw/claw). Base 18 HP, 5 prot. Fast, hit hard. Good defense, insofar as chaff clearing goes.
Post by: Karlito on January 09, 2014, 06:51:08 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 06:52:06 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 09, 2014, 07:03:00 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 09, 2014, 07:11:30 pm
QuoteRe: magic sites
Having played about 4 good, lengthy games in Dom 4 now, I feel like Magic Sites have actually gotten....worse? In the sense I see far fewer of the rarer ones that I used to. Which I assumed meant that the path requirements had been bumped on them. Or have they just simply reduced the # of truly interesting sites per game? I like that they come up with essentially 4 names for each basic gem site, but that was like one of the funnest parts of Dom 3 for me was hunting for new and not-yet-seen sites. So far, I've been a bit disappointed in Dom 4 at the same site frequency, 55%.
What I've read is that Dom4 has a lot more cheap sites, and about 8% (IIRC) fewer sites overall than Dom3. So yeah, you'll see less magic gems at the same settings. FWIW, that's WAD, as part of the devs' effort to stretch the early and middle game where national units are more preeminent.
Post by: SharpKris on January 09, 2014, 10:04:42 pm
Post by: Karlito on January 09, 2014, 10:15:11 pm
Post by: Frumple on January 09, 2014, 10:16:43 pm
You can also use 'em for patrolling if you're intending to branch into blood, throw a handful on mages as bodyguards if you're up against assassin-enabled enemies (or just to serve as spell catchers in combat)... all the normal sort of stuff you'd use plentiful freespawn on.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 10:21:01 pm
Although meatwalls are quite nice.
Anyone played Carrion Woods yet? They're the next nation I was looking at.
Post by: Frumple on January 09, 2014, 10:33:50 pm
Post by: SharpKris on January 09, 2014, 11:14:52 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 11:22:40 pm
Post by: SharpKris on January 10, 2014, 04:02:26 am
in another different issue "goddammit mages! stop casting useless enchantments on yourselves and start nuking!". id it just me or is the AI not so brilliant when it comes to spell selection?
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 10, 2014, 08:19:35 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 10, 2014, 09:26:08 am
1. Arrows are great, except for piercing armor.
2. Using a Bless strategy is great if you actually make sure your bless is good.
3. Getting super high production and growth is not needed for civ's without super expensive units, and should instead be put towards, oh, lets say, better bless bonuses.
4. Undead are a huge pain in the ass when your army is composed of non-magical troops without magic weapons.
6. Getting mages ranked up is critical, so leave some in your army stack so you can get guys with more then one point in magic (Research can evidently rank them up to level 1, though?)
7. Finding magic sites of the type of magic you want is impossible, especially when all your mages only have one level in that type of magic. Seriously how do I do it. I guess I alchemize gems then empower them?
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 10, 2014, 09:49:15 am
7. Finding magic sites of the type of magic you want is impossible, especially when all your mages only have one level in that type of magic. Seriously how do I do it. I guess I alchemize gems then empower them?Use site-searching spells: Augury, Auspex, Haruspex, Astral Probing, Dark Knowledge, Blood Bowl, Voice of Tiamat/Apsu, Gnome Lore. Each finds all sites of the relevant kind in a province. Each requires at most 2 levels of relevant magic path. You should be able to get at least one mage to lvl2, either by empowerment, item forging(magic boosters), random event(of the "a mage joins" kind), or by designing your pretender accordingly.
All these spells are easy to access, as they're not that far on the research ladder.
There's also an astral spell called Acashic Knowledge(not Acashic Record, mind you), that is harder to research and cast, is rather costly in pearls, but reveals ALL sites in a province it's cast on.
Additionally, there's an artifact called Book of Creation, that can cast its own, costless version of Acashic Knowledge.
Finally, one of viable strategies for pretender design, is the so-called "rainbow mage". You pick an awake chassis with very cheap cost for taking new magic paths, and increase magic to 3-4 in as many paths as you can afford. Then it's just a matter of sending him/her/it to search for magic sites, giving you a lot of gem income way before anybody else. Also great for research, forging and magical diversification later on.
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6. Getting mages ranked up is critical, so leave some in your army stack so you can get guys with more then one point in magic (Research can evidently rank them up to level 1, though?)What do you mean by that? The only "ranking up" I can think of is experience, which increases by 1 for ALL units every turn, more if they take part in battle, even more for each swing they take in actual combat.
I don't see why you think it's so important, as it merely gives your mages +1 research capability per level(along with other, less important stat boosts), which isn't that much for most mages. Certainly not enough to justify the time spent with an army and away from actual researching.
Post by: SharpKris on January 10, 2014, 10:04:14 am
i really want to try a crafting civ, any suggestions?
Post by: Neonivek on January 10, 2014, 10:10:40 am
love blood magic! combined with fore magic and abyssians it's just super fun summoning fiends and hunting anything in sight.
i really want to try a crafting civ, any suggestions?
Well Blood is one of the two pure magics.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 10, 2014, 10:18:43 am
I haven't tried blood magic yet, but it looks fun. So many possibilities!
Post by: Culise on January 10, 2014, 10:26:30 am
7. Finding magic sites of the type of magic you want is impossible, especially when all your mages only have one level in that type of magic. Seriously how do I do it. I guess I alchemize gems then empower them?1-2 levels in a path is typically enough to find the majority of sites. Only higher-level sites require 3 levels. It might just be unluckiness.
Post by: nenjin on January 10, 2014, 10:28:50 am
problem is he has 0 leadership. perhaps there's an item that gives leadership?
in another different issue "goddammit mages! stop casting useless enchantments on yourselves and start nuking!". id it just me or is the AI not so brilliant when it comes to spell selection?
I don't know if the Crown of Command or Scepter of Authority will give leadership to solo operators, which seems to come hand in hand with the Assassin Trait. I'm thinking no but you could try. If their magic paths give them zero magical leadership, chances are items won't either.
At the very least, if he's strong enough to take a province, have him assault it. Then pump province defense to an insane level, build a lab, then have your Astral 4 mages with Astral Ritual Range Boosting Items use Gateway to teleport in with their armies.
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in another different issue "goddammit mages! stop casting useless enchantments on yourselves and start nuking!". id it just me or is the AI not so brilliant when it comes to spell selection?
The AI will cast what it can w/o gems. Which isn't a whole lot. If you really care about what they're casting, make them a spellcasting list. I generally find they'll cast blessings first, then personal buffs, then summons, then whatever attack spell they have that is in range and doesn't cost gems.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 10, 2014, 12:30:53 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 10, 2014, 12:58:34 pm
I don't know if the Crown of Command or Scepter of Authority will give leadership to solo operators, which seems to come hand in hand with the Assassin Trait. I'm thinking no but you could try. If their magic paths give them zero magical leadership, chances are items won't either.
Historically, they didn't. But in Dom4, up through 4.04, they do provide leadership to 0s; it hasn't been confirmed if this was WAD.
Post by: E. Albright on January 10, 2014, 01:02:39 pm
1. Arrows are great, except for piercing armor.
Flaming Arrows.
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3. Getting super high production and growth is not needed for civ's without super expensive units, and should instead be put towards, oh, lets say, better bless bonuses.
Yes and no. Both of these (particularly Growth) contribute to overall income. Even if you don't have expensive troops, more gold is more gold. And if your sacreds are underwhelming and/or capital only, better scales can be significantly superior to a better bless.
Post by: Frumple on January 10, 2014, 01:19:23 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 10, 2014, 01:29:51 pm
Post by: Tnx on January 10, 2014, 01:54:20 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 10, 2014, 02:02:00 pm
Post by: SharpKris on January 10, 2014, 02:02:57 pm
Started a new game as Vanheim. Man these troops are expensive. Also found a site for recruiting sages and a province that lets me recruit troll kings, trolls, armored trolls, and moose knight trolls.
i'm not certain what i should imagine when i hear "moose knight trolls"
Post by: Frumple on January 10, 2014, 02:32:15 pm
Van... I can't recall much about them. I think the only one(s?) I've played much are the ones with the skinshifters (LA, at least. Think that's van, anyway...), and their initial strategy of "bury everything in skinshifters" is pretty simple :P
Post by: Tnx on January 10, 2014, 02:42:12 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 10, 2014, 02:51:16 pm
Post by: Tnx on January 10, 2014, 03:06:39 pm
Post by: Frumple on January 10, 2014, 03:10:21 pm
Post by: Tnx on January 10, 2014, 03:18:46 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 10, 2014, 03:50:02 pm
Also worth noting re: arrows is that crossbows are plenty good at tearing through armor. Dunno if the hoberg are still around, but them or indie crossbow folks can do in a pinch if you're looking for ranged armor killers (that aren't mages, anyway), if your nation doesn't have crossbow access.
Another thing to note is that slings are very nasty against anyone without helmets, even if their body is well-armored.
As a side note, the devs have made mention of possibly eventually revising slings to be more historically accurate rather than cleaving to conventional Gygaxian myths about their efficacy.
Post by: nenjin on January 10, 2014, 04:08:34 pm
Post by: SharpKris on January 10, 2014, 05:17:11 pm
Trolls are nuts. I was having ~200 Merman getting rolled by ~50 Triton and Triton Guard. Add in 15 Sea Trolls? Crush them with minimal losses.
if the Trolls had the trample trait that would explain it. Troglodytes oh how have i misjudged you
oddly enough giants dont have the trample trait
Post by: Frumple on January 10, 2014, 05:38:39 pm
*Actually, the only native-underwater critter I can remember with trample is Asp Turtles (which are gloriously brutal monstrosities that can take most indie water provinces either solo or in groups of two or three and do horrible things to armies in general.) and... probably Leviathans, which are those but undead (and amphibious). Both really high up in terms of research, though. Conj or Ench 7.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 10, 2014, 05:40:13 pm
That's how I reason it anyhow.
Did you watch the battlereplay nenjin? Maybe the trolls soaked enough damage to allow mermen to get some free hits in. Or maybe the trolls hit so hard as to one-shot tritons. 50 divided by 15 doesn't take many rounds to kill them all.
Post by: Tnx on January 10, 2014, 05:58:38 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 10, 2014, 06:22:54 pm
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Does upping the magic site make provinces more interesting? I found a province with independent archers who wear plate cuirasses. Note that this is EA era, where everyone seems to charge in bare chested. They cost 22 resources though, but have a nice 14 protection.
By upping do you mean discover? Only if a magic site enables troop recruitment. And it will say it on the site if it does. Maybe you just got lucky with world generation. (I kinda wish MA/LA flavored province recruits were a lot less common than they feel in EA.) If you're talking Dominion, no, Dominion has no effects like that, that I'm aware of.
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Did you watch the battlereplay nenjin? Maybe the trolls soaked enough damage to allow mermen to get some free hits in. Or maybe the trolls hit so hard as to one-shot tritons. 50 divided by 15 doesn't take many rounds to kill them all.
I think it had to do with the main merman force taking the first attack in the face, and the Sea Trolls rolling along the side in Attack Rear. Sometimes they get to the leaders, sometimes they get entangled in the main force. But I imagine Sea Trolls mauling the Tritons in their flank and them being blocked in on all sides crushes their morale and causes them to flee. When I say minimal losses, I tend to consider Merman highly expendable. So losing 50/230 and 0 Sea Trolls to me is minimal losses :P Really I should just stop using Mermen but they're the most expedient way to conquer interior oceans and lakes as I see it. Shamblers aren't much better and eat waaaayyy too much for how many of them you need to bring to be effective. Atlantians seem comparable to Merman in how many times MORE you need to beat dedicated sea units.
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Troglodytes oh how have i misjudged you
Trogs are great. Get 40 of them and watch them mow down human-sized opponents not in Heavy Armor. I really like putting heavy hitters like Trolls and Trogs on Attack Rear at the flanks. As I said above, either they flank into the soft underbelly of an enemy, or they get to the commanders and proceed to dismember them, spells, bodyguards or no.
Question: is there some kind of magical mathematical formula to use when determining the # of units to Storm Castle? In my current game, armies of 400+ were being defeated literally by 20 or 30 troops worth of defenders because of all the dog piling at the gate. Maybe it was just because of the magic site (Jervallen Wall or w/e), but it was getting really frustrated until I took about 150 soldiers out of the equation.
Post by: SharpKris on January 10, 2014, 06:24:23 pm
is there a Dwarf civ by any chance?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 10, 2014, 06:33:25 pm
using Abyssian atm getting blood/fire mix of spells with revealing spells to reveal magic sites faster.
is there a Dwarf civ by any chance?
Dominions doesn't really do traditional fantasy races as much as you might expect. That said, Vanheim (EA and/or MA) has cap only Dwarf commander that's good at earth magic and forging.
There is however a mod nation modeled after the dwarves of Warhammer Fantasy:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=1628&st=0
Post by: Frumple on January 10, 2014, 06:43:02 pm
is there a Dwarf civ by any chance?Nah. There's a few dwarves recruitable in some of the norse-et-al influenced nations (Niefal, etc., I think.), but no non-mod pure dwarf civs. There were a couple mod nations for D3, but no clue about for D4.
Question: is there some kind of magical mathematical formula to use when determining the # of units to Storm Castle?The short answer is "no", iirc. The big thing with storming castles is precisely the bottleneck you've noticed allowing a small force of the right sort of critter to hold off much, much more than they should be able to.
There's a few things you can do. The big one is magic and flyers, which can bypass the natural bottleneck and wreck all sorts of havoc. Tramplers can also help with the gate area, providing there's nothing larger than them holding said gate. An elite core force (capable of going toe-to-toe -- and then some, because you've got tower arrows and whatever else the enemy has for ranged options -- with whatever is plugging the gap) can break into the stopgap and let loose the dogs of chaff. Iirc, you might be able to do some things with placement (put all your crap way back, so the stuff inside the garrison will come out and face you, allowing you to surround and dogpile a lot easier). Basically, the issue of castle breaking usually has a lot more to do with quality (and composition) than it does with quantity. If they're not up to snuff, all the units in the world isn't going to break through a wall of high HP, high defense/etc regening troops before the turn limit hits, and more chaff is often just more chances for the tower attacks or w/e to trigger moral checks (and eventually failures, resulting in routing).
Re: The J. Wall, insofar as I'm aware the only thing up with that is it's a free castle. You can check in-battle in the upper right (usually, anyway) for a little pentagram thing that'll tell you if there's any persistent battlefield-wide spells going. Least that was how it was in D3... fairly sure it still is in D4. Think I've seen it (few pretenders have it natural, nowadays), even...
Post by: Tnx on January 10, 2014, 07:24:49 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 10, 2014, 07:32:10 pm
Against ground infantry, it's amazing. Since Ancestor Vessel's bows also do morale damage the enemy often routs before they even are able to push them to the edge of the map. The Death Weapon lets them punch through armor, and the game of keep away lets you pepper the enemy with attacks until you can't move back any more.
It's pretty effective but was annoying to find the right combinations.
I also discovered something called the Ivory Bow (Yay mod inspector), which is at construction 6 and does 14 "Unlife Damage", and fires three arrows per attack. If you kill someone with it, they become an undead minion! I was thinking of trying to make a build built around this item, because it seems like it would be really funny/interesting to use. I do have a question though, since it fires three arrows per attack, does it use up three ammo per attack as well?
Post by: dennislp3 on January 10, 2014, 07:41:14 pm
Post by: Frumple on January 10, 2014, 07:41:35 pm
Post by: Bluerobin on January 10, 2014, 07:44:33 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 10, 2014, 09:04:41 pm
Sorry, when I said "upping the magic site" I meant the frequency of magic sites option before starting a game.
I never run above 55%, and that gives me on average 3 hidden sites per province. Does it increase the frequency of interesting sites which affect provinces? As I posted above, I feel like there are fewer unique sites, but it's entirely anecdotal. Thrones probably replaced at least some sites.
That said, province affecting sites are highly dominion dependent in whether they're helping or hurting you, because that's usually how they do their work. Some just outright screw you, like Pestilence Well. Others tweak temperatures or something which almost always takes it out of the alignment you want it in. It's always kind of a kick in the balls to find a nice 15k pop province with good recruits, deck it out, make it a recruiting center.....and then find out there's a pestilence well on it.
Post by: E. Albright on January 10, 2014, 10:48:39 pm
*Actually, the only native-underwater critter I can remember with trample is Asp Turtles (which are gloriously brutal monstrosities that can take most indie water provinces either solo or in groups of two or three and do horrible things to armies in general.) and... probably Leviathans, which are those but undead (and amphibious). Both really high up in terms of research, though. Conj or Ench 7.
What? The turtles the only underwater tramplers? For shame, Frumple, for shame! How could you forget the majestic glory of the proud Atlantian War Lobsters?!?!?
Post by: Frumple on January 10, 2014, 10:55:18 pm
I do remember those things, now, though. They're also pretty nasty, but I think there was something about them being easy to get knocked into a second form or somethin'?
Post by: E. Albright on January 10, 2014, 11:13:33 pm
Most tramplers seem to be animals (elephants) or very stupid things (trogs?). Playable giant races seem to be human in all respects, save physical. It makes sense that they'd rather swing a giant spear rather than trample whatever it is they're fighting. Minotaurs make an exception here, sort of. But Pangaea's shtick is that they're closer to nature (ie. animals) so it makes sense for their big minotaurs to be able to 'zerk and trample all who oppose the leafy lord.
Actually if you're looking for a unified theory of tramplers, it's "animals". Trogs are considered animals, as are elephants, leviathans, the undead versions of both... and boars, and lobsters once their riders die. The minotaurs are tramplers only so long as they retain their wildness; once you get to LA, only the Grove Guards still have it.
The real exception to this is the various chariots, but they're "trampling" in an entirely different way than the animal tramplers; it's scythed wheels and such rather than stomping on their victims...
Post by: E. Albright on January 10, 2014, 11:15:56 pm
By making the statement while I was staring at the research list in game instead of looking at unit lists or whatev' :P
I do remember those things, now, though. They're also pretty nasty, but I think there was something about them being easy to get knocked into a second form or somethin'?
Their riders are fairly fragile, yes. And once their riders die, the lobsters are big, dumb, wild tramplers menacing with spikes of !!FUN!!...
Post by: E. Albright on January 10, 2014, 11:21:44 pm
There's a few things you can do. The big one is magic and flyers, which can bypass the natural bottleneck and wreck all sorts of havoc.
...and ethereal units. They'll flounce right through the wall to attack whatever luck souls they find behind it. These you want to set off to the sides so they don't interfere with whatever units you have braving the killing ground in the middle.
Post by: Bitoru on January 11, 2014, 12:41:19 am
Post by: nenjin on January 11, 2014, 01:29:43 am
Post by: BuriBuriZaemon on January 11, 2014, 01:45:16 am
I believe there just was a non-Steam sale that let you activate your key on Steam.
Was $11 on Gamersgate, activatetable on Steam. I got it myself and have been stomped by the AIs. So far only using EA Ermor (Roman Empire with magic!).
Post by: nenjin on January 11, 2014, 01:52:17 am
But not like your standard LP. More like a series of short stories that in a way describes the war.
There's something about how everything comes together in Dom that really inspires me. That 3 star, crippled soldier you find in a remote province, that once fled a battle. He set out at the start of the war in his prime, but now he's old and ruined, leagues from home. What's his story? What has he seen? The individual experiences of each populace your armies encounter. Did they go quietly, other than that group of free thinkers you had to kill? What do they think of your strange God? The inner politicking between mages and priests, generals and prophets. The stories of heroism and sacrifice. The sheer horror of the (many) things you can do in Dominions. And just a lot of really cool imaginary, like a dude in Legionnaire armor, staring down a long valley against the setting sun, a Legion of soldiers living and dead at his back.
Post by: BuriBuriZaemon on January 11, 2014, 02:15:31 am
There's something about how everything comes together in Dom that really inspires me. That 3 star, crippled soldier you find in a remote province, that once fled a battle. He set out at the start of the war in his prime, but now he's old and ruined, leagues from home. What's his story? What has he seen? The individual experiences of each populace your armies encounter. Did they go quietly, other than that group of free thinkers you had to kill? What do they think of your strange God? The inner politicking between mages and priests, generals and prophets. The stories of heroism and sacrifice. The sheer horror of the (many) things you can do in Dominions. And just a lot of really cool imaginary, like a dude in Legionnaire armor, staring down a long valley against the setting sun, a Legion of soldiers living and dead at his back.
The lack of fancy graphics inspires a player-driven narration. <3
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 11, 2014, 03:12:59 am
I believe there just was a non-Steam sale that let you activate your key on Steam.
There IS a non-steam sale:
http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM4TA/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascension
The 50% off/12,50€ sale seems to be on for the weekend I believe
quickedit:
and yes, you can activate it on steam just fine.
Post by: BuriBuriZaemon on January 11, 2014, 05:59:09 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 11, 2014, 11:45:19 am
Post by: cerapa on January 11, 2014, 11:53:07 am
Been playing as Yomi and steamrolling everything with a horde of demons. Only setback was an enemy army chewing through mine with a bunch of priests casting banishment. But that was fine, because the general Dai-Oni survived and proceeded to trample(those are some awesome boots) through an enemy army of 53 singlehandedly the next turn. I should buy more of those guys.
The hall of fame is filled my generals. The greatest of which being Toru, my prophet demon general, who started the game by winning a pair of sandals in the arena after curbstomping the other contestants, and now has 63 kills.
Anyway, question time. Is there a way to protect my army from banishment, or should I just create less demon-centric armies?
Post by: Wiles on January 11, 2014, 12:00:23 pm
I'm playing as early age Ulm. I have a fully kitted out Tartarian cyclops that killed about 200 soldiers in one battle and I have other equally capable commanders but against the sheer numbers my armies always rout eventually.
Post by: Frumple on January 11, 2014, 12:15:51 pm
Anyway, question time. Is there a way to protect my army from banishment, or should I just create less demon-centric armies?There's spells that can increase magic resistance, some of them battlefield wide, iirc (higher up in the research). Banishment damage can be negated (or halved? Something like that.) by a successful MR check, so if your demons have higher magic resistance...
Setting things up to kill the banishers might help, too, of course. Flyers set to attack rear, large AoE spells, stuff like that. Fairly sure Yomi's got access to at least death (and maybe blood?), so you might be able to sic some non-battle disease causing stuff on their armies, get the priest population headed toward death. Assassins might work too, if you've got access (and if you've got blood, or are willing to get into blood, something nasty with that assassin heart thing, if it's still in D4, would be vicious.).
I'm playing as early age Ulm. I have a fully kitted out Tartarian cyclops that killed about 200 soldiers in one battle and I have other equally capable commanders but against the sheer numbers my armies always rout eventually.Unless D4's changed it, one thing you can do is send stuff like that cyclops in solo (or only supported by equally capable units). The rout is based, at least partially, on number of things killed (or something like the amount of HP lost by those things or whatev'.) on your side. If you've only got two or three guys that won't die, they won't rout. If they're in an army with a bunch of crap that does die, they can and will rout.
Alternately, if routing is the issue, get some morale boosters! Stick 'em in with the groups that are routing. If enemy chaff is the issue, get some of those mass AoE spells good at clearing them out. I'd personally just say screw the army and send in the SCs on their lonesome, though, especially if you're at the point of getting tartarians. Probably, anyway.
Post by: E. Albright on January 11, 2014, 03:13:19 pm
What is the most efficient way to deal with massive enemy armies? I'm up against Pangea and their armies are about 3-5k in size. It's mostly chaff like maenads, but they are backed up by many many mages. I've fought them a couple of times and my much smaller armies do very well, but they still lose. I'm trying to pump out some as many soldiers as I can, but I can't seem to match Pangea's output.
I'm playing as early age Ulm. I have a fully kitted out Tartarian cyclops that killed about 200 soldiers in one battle and I have other equally capable commanders but against the sheer numbers my armies always rout eventually.
Then you've hit the point where you need to transition from mundane armies to either small armies of (boosted) elites (hard for EA Ulm), solo/small gangs of supercombatants as Frumple recommends (IIRC it's 75% total hitpoint value killed triggers autorout, which will eventually be a problem for a full-sized army), or... switch gears and use your troops to hold the line while mass-evocation-spewing mages do your heavy lifting. This latter is probably the best course; get a mass of durable troops, and throw in a thug or two to help thin the enemy's numbers, but fill your backfield with a mess of mages dropping evocations to take care of the actual killing.
Post by: Wiles on January 11, 2014, 03:52:41 pm
Out of curiosity, do you folks have any favourite single player maps? I've been trying out a few from the desura forums. Some of them are very pretty.
Post by: E. Albright on January 11, 2014, 04:11:59 pm
*I've been playing Argatha a lot, so a well-developed underworld is a major plus.
Post by: nenjin on January 11, 2014, 04:24:18 pm
On a semi-related note, modding.
I haven't really dug into the documentation or googled anything, but I just wanted to ask in case anyone had some knowledge.
I like big maps and I cannot lie. :P Unfortunately, Dom's list of province names is woefully small, about 100 I think. So I get a ton of duplicate names. Basically the same story for Nation names. You start to see a lot of duplicates. Is there any way to mod this or is that all locked up in compiled code?
Post by: Karlito on January 11, 2014, 04:47:38 pm
Post by: Farce on January 11, 2014, 06:33:47 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on January 11, 2014, 06:34:36 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 11, 2014, 06:53:46 pm
You can go into the .map file and manually add in names for provinces.
I was kinda hoping to to add names so that'd generate maps with new ones.
Post by: Tnx on January 11, 2014, 07:11:10 pm
Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8w06e8vzlfcpsoj/SemiRandom%20Dominions%20Map%20Generator.rar
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 11, 2014, 07:30:58 pm
One map I like to play on is Silent Seas (45+15), it's one of the default ones. 2-5 player map. I can usually get decent computer romps with two other random land nations on it. An island with forests up north, wastelands in the centre and some random terrain down south all surrounded by water. I don't think it has any caves but everything else is covered, more or less.
Official forum (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/board/undiscovered-door-maps-cartography) has some neat custom ones. I really like Valanis and the ones by Pymous. Once I have the time I'll try to get some playtime on Elmokki's maps. They have a nice gloomy appearance. Reminds me of autumn.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 11, 2014, 09:05:46 pm
For the priests, you can cast different raise units with priests instead of preaching. However, I noticed it only works if you have corpses to raise. But I also noticed that units still freely spawn even when there are no more corpses in a province. How exactly does the free unit spawning work? Is there anything I can do to effect it? I noticed some provinces spawn more units then others, what effects that?
Also, when I was putting together armies, I noticed ghouls can't be grouped in the same squad as soulless or skeleton legionaries. It's because they aren't mindless, right?
I also noticed that sometimes (But not always) my undead swarms would be undisciplined. WHY. How do I make them disciplined and/or remove the undisciplined unit from the squad?
This is an addicting game. Send help.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 11, 2014, 09:08:45 pm
I also noticed that sometimes (But not always) my undead swarms would be undisciplined. WHY. How do I make them disciplined and/or remove the undisciplined unit from the squad?
If ONE unit has the undisciplined trait and you put him in a squad the entire squad becomes undisciplined
Post by: Frumple on January 11, 2014, 09:25:23 pm
For the priests, you can cast different raise units with priests instead of preaching. However, I noticed it only works if you have corpses to raise. But I also noticed that units still freely spawn even when there are no more corpses in a province. How exactly does the free unit spawning work? Is there anything I can do to effect it? I noticed some provinces spawn more units then others, what effects that?In the case of Ermor, three things effect their freespawn, so far as I'm aware. The strength of their dominion, and whether there is a castle or a temple in the province. Higher dominion = more spawns. Temple = better spawns. Temple + Castle = even better spawns. I'm not sure about castle by itself, though. I imagine that provides better spawns as well. S'far as I know, that's it.
Priest reanimating is a different thing entirely and yeah, as you note, primarily takes corpses (or just plain population, in some cases).
Post by: E. Albright on January 11, 2014, 09:26:19 pm
For the priests, you can cast different raise units with priests instead of preaching. However, I noticed it only works if you have corpses to raise.
For reanimation, you need either corpses (for soulless) or population (ghouls). When you have neither, you can only reanimate do longdead/lictors/etc. You won't see either of those freespawning w/o the requisite "resource" either.
Quote
But I also noticed that units still freely spawn even when there are no more corpses in a province. How exactly does the free unit spawning work? Is there anything I can do to effect it? I noticed some provinces spawn more units then others, what effects that?
Dominion strength, presence of temples, and presence of forts affect what and how much freespawn you get. E.g., without a castle you'll never get any of the national undead units spawned.
Quote
Also, when I was putting together armies, I noticed ghouls can't be grouped in the same squad as soulless or skeleton legionaries. It's because they aren't mindless, right?
Yes.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 11, 2014, 09:33:39 pm
Post by: Bluerobin on January 11, 2014, 09:39:38 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on January 11, 2014, 09:40:27 pm
Post by: Bluerobin on January 11, 2014, 09:41:19 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 11, 2014, 09:56:12 pm
Quote
"The Daimon is a captain from Marignon that led a doomed expedition into the jungles of Mictlan in search. In one final act of madness and hubris, he ritually sacrificed all the men under his command and feasted on their blood, forever altering his essential nature. Now he has returned to Marignon, donning a godly mantle, and intending to rule over Inquisition, Diabolists and Mictlanese alike. The Daimon is a capable blood mage, and chaos, horror and bloodshed follow in his wake, and unrest and murders will increase in whichever province he resides."(as you might notice, it's is heavily influenced by Aguirre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lope_de_Aguirre) and Carvajal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Carvajal)... maybe it would work better as a rand -or not rand- hero?)
Post by: Karlito on January 11, 2014, 09:57:30 pm
Priest reanimating is a different thing entirely and yeah, as you note, primarily takes corpses (or just plain population, in some cases).
Reanimating Souless uses fresh corpses
Reanimating Ghouls uses population
Reanimating Longdeads is free (they're coming from existing crypts/graveyards)
Post by: Cthulhu on January 11, 2014, 10:17:59 pm
Moving Ermor to Middle Age is an interesting change, hopefully it'll make Late Age less of a battle of the hell-dominion chaff swarm kingdoms, though I wonder what Lemuria is like
Post by: Karlito on January 11, 2014, 10:51:23 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 11, 2014, 11:12:57 pm
Uhh, unless they changed it from Dominions 3, you should be able to build them wherever, but you need a unit with holy magic paths to build them.
They changed it... slightly. Now temples can be built (anywhere) by any sacred commander, regardless of whether they have Holy levels.
Post by: Bluerobin on January 11, 2014, 11:13:20 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 12, 2014, 01:21:18 am
On that note, I'm perplexed how Blood Dominion is supposed to work. Clearly, their Dominion is stronger than mine because on either side of a continental mountain range, where dominion can't spread through, my Dominion reigns. But even across an ocean of provinces I own, enemy dominion is completely flooding me. I have B3 guys with Jade Knives working over time, and for the most part they barely make a dent within half a continent of a homeland.
I started with Dominion Strength 8, so I know it's a little weak but I thought extra temples were supposed to take it to 10. I've got three guys sacrificing in a circle around an enemy homeland, and have watched dominion go up, down, left and right. I know it's a temple check and it's random, but why does Dominion not spread from behind where the enemy dominion can't reach? Another nation doesn't have temples within 10 provinces of my sacrificiers, and they're dominion is still smoking mine.
Is Mictlan just, fundamental weaker when it comes to dominion spread? Because playing just about any other nation, even at the same comprable dominion strength, I've never been this far behind. I suppose I'm probably just not doing it as I'm supposed to, and having a temple and sacrificer in literally every other province.
Post by: Karlito on January 12, 2014, 01:49:25 am
That said, 8 is still a pretty high strength, especially if you regularly have many guys making 5 blood sacrifices/month, so I'm not really sure what's going on there. Care to provide a screenshot?
Post by: nenjin on January 12, 2014, 02:26:31 am
The big red ring is Pangaea's seemingly impenetrable wall of Dominion. The gold dots are temples. Note the gold circle, where there are three temples that were keeping Kailasa on lock down. To the immediate west of them, I have not seem positive dominion yet. And as for Mictlan, for a while I had it up to 10 Dom, and then it bottomed out. I *just* got back into positive dominion on my own panhandle after putting three temples there, and after I built the Ark.
The stuff is Mictlan's western lands has stayed pretty consistent after three priests spent a lot of time there. But I think that has more to do with the fact it's insulated by mountains on two sides more than anything else.
Not all of my temples are manned by B3+ priests or buy full-time priests. But most are, especially the ones at the borderlands.
Post by: Frumple on January 12, 2014, 02:37:59 am
I'd say in this case, it's likely not so much that your dom push is weak, per se, it's that it's pushing against something that's pushing back hard, too. You want to drop them, you'll probably want/need more temple checks then they're getting (probably more than you're putting out)... or start breaking their temples >_>
Post by: Xardalas on January 12, 2014, 02:41:15 am
This is a linkie to it's current stats from where I'm at in the thread. http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/28362785/images/1384841442468.png
And this one is a link to the thread to itself.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/28362785/
Post by: Karlito on January 12, 2014, 02:43:23 am
See, the higher the dominion is in a province, the more it resists change. Basically you need to stop sacrificing in the middle of 10-black candle land, those temple checks are pretty much wasted right now, and focus on the borders. Any province with 5 or less black candles is one you have a conceivable chance at taking. If you really want to start pushing those candles back, I'm guessing you'd need to at least double (and probably triple or more) the number of sacrificing temples you have in operation.
EDIT:Also, you have like 100 stone idols worth of gems there, so that might be an option.
Post by: nenjin on January 12, 2014, 02:58:37 am
Post by: Xardalas on January 12, 2014, 03:08:37 am
Post by: Duuvian on January 12, 2014, 03:30:18 am
Or at least that's what people were saying at the bottom of the only page I looked at.
Post by: Frumple on January 12, 2014, 05:53:26 am
Hell, looks like the plain centurions aren't that far from 'em, either. Lacking the immortality and some of the stats, though. And the holy levels, of course. Think I may have just noticed how lemuria can expand quicklike, ha. Makes me wonder if the Ermor commanders match this stuff...
E: Also learned that max PD is tied to population now. That's actually kinda' nasty for the domkill nations...
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 12, 2014, 12:46:12 pm
Woah. Note to self. Lemur consuls make a pretty impressive thug chassis. 25 death gems (i.e., lemuria can have one out on turn... three?), built in fear, immortality, chill aura, ethereal, and h3 (so undead blessing, power, protection built in...). Map move 3, amphibious... base stats are solid, too. 33 hp, 18 prot, 17 defense. Actually has a physical weapon. You can send an army with them if you feel like, but they apparently have pretty good odds to solo many indie provinces right out the gate, sans kit, sans backup. Little bit of kit and they do a pretty good job of wrecking face. I think I like these critters.
Hell, looks like the plain centurions aren't that far from 'em, either. Lacking the immortality and some of the stats, though. And the holy levels, of course. Think I may have just noticed how lemuria can expand quicklike, ha. Makes me wonder if the Ermor commanders match this stuff...
E: Also learned that max PD is tied to population now. That's actually kinda' nasty for the domkill nations...
Yeah, Ermor is interesting because they don't have any population, so you get no PD. You have to rely on high candle levels to hurt anyone invading you. You kinda get "free" PD because of the spawns for Ermor, though, and you can also use priests to raise units. And, since you get free commanders randomly as well, you can basically have patrolling armies that deal with any threats, while your dom spreads and slowly kills everyone.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 12, 2014, 03:32:55 pm
Post by: Boksi on January 12, 2014, 03:50:55 pm
Would anyone recommend gimping myself on candles at creation and making up for them later with temples so I can have more magic and buffs for blessed troops? Thinking of playing as pangea and spamming temples to make up for low initial candle strengthGenerally that's a very bad idea, but Pangaea can pull it off because of their cheap temples. You still have to be careful though.
Post by: Bluerobin on January 12, 2014, 03:53:44 pm
Also, don't rely on sacred troops with a low dominion, since you won't be able to recruit as many of them per turn.
Post by: PrimusRibbus on January 12, 2014, 03:59:10 pm
Would anyone recommend gimping myself on candles at creation and making up for them later with temples so I can have more magic and buffs for blessed troops? Thinking of playing as pangea and spamming temples to make up for low initial candle strength
With anyone but Pangea I'd probably say heck no. Your big problem is going to be early game where you just won't have the temples/income/provinces to combat someone like a high dominion Ermor with a stealth prophet.
I guess with Pangea it would be doable against opponents that don't have economy/troop hosing dominions, though, but it's risky.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 12, 2014, 04:01:13 pm
The thing about sacred troops is that you can only recruit (per fort per turn) as many sacreds as you have dominion. In addition most sacreds (pangaea included) are capital only. Low candles combined with cap only sacreds doesn't really work. You'll want decent dominion to be able to crank out those sacreds.
What kind of a bless were you thinking? Major? Double major? And/or some minor blesses to go?
Post by: Frumple on January 12, 2014, 05:42:56 pm
There can be more than four sites in a province.
There can be more than four sites in a province.
My knowledge of reality has shattered before fact. All is unknowable and strange! WHAT MADNESS IS THIS‽ Why, Illwinter? WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS‽
El proofo:
Spoiler: Ignore the temple and the throne and count (click to show/hide)
Post by: Karlito on January 12, 2014, 06:01:52 pm
Post by: SharpKris on January 12, 2014, 08:18:42 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on January 12, 2014, 08:37:46 pm
People tend to recommend 6-7 as a minimum with multiplayer to avoid death by domloss. If you're just playing SP then you can make do with less. Taking negative scales is pretty good way to get more points, depending on your faction. I don't think Pan needs many resources so they could get some points by taking a bit of sloth. One bit of misfortune or drain nets you another 40 points for magic paths.
The thing about sacred troops is that you can only recruit (per fort per turn) as many sacreds as you have dominion. In addition most sacreds (pangaea included) are capital only. Low candles combined with cap only sacreds doesn't really work. You'll want decent dominion to be able to crank out those sacreds.
What kind of a bless were you thinking? Major? Double major? And/or some minor blesses to go?
I was thinking of the possibility of maybe a double major. I have done a game where I did tons of minors...and thats ok but I am interested to see how a double major could really beef up a prophet. I tend to go with an immobile pretender for the extra points so how powerful my prophet is makes a huge difference in how I play. I tend to reserve sacred troops for my prophet alone.
Post by: Frumple on January 12, 2014, 08:56:48 pm
that's insane! what map is this? i love the amount of caves you got thereJust a random map with caves set to the max value. I wanted an underground map. It's not entirely cave provinces, but... mostly. Mostly. And I'm playing lemuria so everything's undead and you kinda' see why I did it maybe :P Mostly wanted to play with cave summons, really.
Neatest thing about it so far, really, is that there's a number of disconnected provinces. Stuff where the only way I'm going to get into it is teleportation or whatev'. Several of which are throne holding provinces, heh.
S'sorta' like making a mostly underwater map, and making all your enemies land nations, hoho. Actually, the enemies are putting up a decent enough fight. Cave indies aren't too terrible, really, when most of what they're up against is puny puny freespawn. Which helps them right up until the consuls come in and everything dies and/or routs.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 12, 2014, 09:03:20 pm
Then you probably want one of the titans or immobiles with ?2?1 paths. You can afford boosting those two paths to 9 by imprisoning and taking sloth1. This should leave you at about 7 or 8 dominion. Cut down dominion and boost scales according to taste. At least MA Pan has a good selection of various ?2?1 paths.
That's how I'd do a pan double bless pretender anyway.
Post by: E. Albright on January 12, 2014, 09:47:38 pm
Neatest thing about it so far, really, is that there's a number of disconnected provinces. Stuff where the only way I'm going to get into it is teleportation or whatev'. Several of which are throne holding provinces, heh.
Teleportation and whatev' aren't what they used to be, alas... There's the small matter of spell ranges, which means if those provinces are actually disconnected, they're entirely inaccessible.
Post by: Frumple on January 13, 2014, 12:14:09 am
In other news, why in Zeus's name is the advanced orders stuff not just in the freaking menus!? I just now learned there's a monthly forging command. I knew about the monthly ritual for a while, but this... argh. Thug production just got ridiculously more streamlined :-\
Also managed to summon up a wraith lord for consul comparison purposes! And, uh. Well. The base stats, consuls actually have a bit of an edge (note: For 15 less death gems, and absolutely zero research), winning out on defense by about a point, and otherwise they're... basically identical. Consuls are a little faster in terms of AP. Same HP, consuls have slightly less prot, same attack, same morale, magic resistance... for what it's worth, WLs have about double the spellcasting fatigue, but eh. It is a trade of d3 for h3 (which is definitely a downgrade if you're comparing them side by side.) and no death curse, and they've got worse starting kit (especially the weapon), but in exchange they're sacreds who can self bless, from a nation that can very, very easily afford an incredible bless, and if you throw them in an army they can throw out some pretty sizable supporting buffs right off the bat. Consuls are also full amphibians, for what that's worth.
The rub, being, well. Wraith lord is conj 7. Lemur Consul is turn three, and potentially every two turns thereafter as a minimum. It... that's pretty incredible. Yes, I would like an end-game (mini)SC chassis on turn three. I would like that very much.
E: Does explain why they were walking indies so easily, though. They're basically forty death gems and several hundred points of research in a twenty five gem zero research package.
E2: Oh wow, the ermor equivalent (censors, I guess?) is kinda' utter trash in comparison. No fear, ethereal, worse stats in almost everything... a lot cheaper, at least, but I'd half bet on one consul over 6-7 censors >_>
Ermor in comparison... definitely a different beast. Amulets of the dead work on their reanimations, for one <_<
E3: Dusk elders are a hell of a lot better than the equivalent top-tier lemuria caster, though, whatever those things are called. ~Half the cost for roughly the same casting power and research, that's kinda' ridiculous. Admittedly, the grand-whatever's stats (and immortality) probably make it a considerably better battle caster, but... eesh.
Seems to be the general pattern, really, which is kinda' interesting. Ermor's got better research, better freespawn, Lemuria has more expensive but a lot better commanders in regards to everything else, but frankly pretty iffy freespawn (not that they particularly need it when they've basically got turn three wraith lords x:). Neat... contrast, I guess? Lemuria's doom consuls and whatnot make 'em feel more... flexible. Definitely a different feel to both empires, which is nice.
Post by: E. Albright on January 13, 2014, 01:06:38 am
Have to give remote attacking a shot, then... bit more before I can test it, but eh.
These also have spell ranges...
Post by: Wiles on January 13, 2014, 12:28:04 pm
In other news, why in Zeus's name is the advanced orders stuff not just in the freaking menus!? I just now learned there's a monthly forging command. I knew about the monthly ritual for a while, but this... argh. Thug production just got ridiculously more streamlined :-\
I had no idea. Is there a "cheat sheet" somewhere that has hotkeys and stuff like this? I've tried perusing the manual but this sort of thing seems buried in it.
Post by: Bluerobin on January 13, 2014, 12:44:06 pm
They have keyboard shortcuts for way more things than I thought... Even game setup has shortcuts!
Post by: nenjin on January 13, 2014, 12:54:58 pm
In other news, why in Zeus's name is the advanced orders stuff not just in the freaking menus!? I just now learned there's a monthly forging command. I knew about the monthly ritual for a while, but this... argh. Thug production just got ridiculously more streamlined :-\
I had no idea. Is there a "cheat sheet" somewhere that has hotkeys and stuff like this? I've tried perusing the manual but this sort of thing seems buried in it.
? on almost any screen will show you the hotkeys.
Post by: Wiles on January 13, 2014, 01:37:18 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 13, 2014, 06:01:07 pm
I have this pretender concept to be ironed out...Quote"The Daimon is a captain from Marignon that led a doomed expedition into the jungles of Mictlan in search. In one final act of madness and hubris, he ritually sacrificed all the men under his command and feasted on their blood, forever altering his essential nature. Now he has returned to Marignon, donning a godly mantle, and intending to rule over Inquisition, Diabolists and Mictlanese alike. The Daimon is a capable blood mage, and chaos, horror and bloodshed follow in his wake, and unrest and murders will increase in whichever province he resides."(as you might notice, it's is heavily influenced by Aguirre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lope_de_Aguirre) and Carvajal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Carvajal)... maybe it would work better as a rand -or not rand- hero?)
I think that would work better as a hero. B2-3, whichever is good but not too good. Add in either F2-3 or W2-3 and make him generate unrest a bit. Fire crosspath is basic Marignon while water could be explained as our hero having picked it up while in Mictlan. Rain (ie. water) is one of their chief deity manifestations, right? Alternatively you could give him D2-3 as a result of him cheating death when he should have died in the new world. Gearwise I imagine he'd have basic conquistador stuff.
Post by: Frumple on January 13, 2014, 07:03:13 pm
E: Eesh. Boots of quickness on an already quick flying SC. It's, like. Why do we have teleportation and crap, again? Mah critters already move anywhere within six or so provinces.
Post by: Karlito on January 14, 2014, 09:32:20 am
Post by: E. Albright on January 14, 2014, 01:22:55 pm
Post by: Karlito on January 23, 2014, 01:53:26 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 23, 2014, 05:43:56 am
Post by: Culise on January 23, 2014, 10:26:06 am
Post by: Frumple on January 25, 2014, 12:30:51 am
It's basically as the filename might suggest, though unfortunately I found out that gem cost is intrinsically tied to fatigue, and, well. It's a mod that turns every spell in the game mostly costless. No gems,
I'd actually be really interested in an overarching balance shift that finagles things so the game is balanced around no gem cost spells*, so the magic really gets flying, but in the process of trying to just get this much I rapidly found that that would be an absolute pain in the arse, so... no. Not a project I'll be embarking on.
To think, I mostly just wanted to cut costs out of most of the lower level, non-global stuff. Y'know, encourage spell spitting even more. But even that would be a royal pain, so... have five minutes of work with libreoffice calc, a calculator, and notepad++. If anyone wants to have silliness without mucking about with debug or cheating or whatever.
*Messing with fatigue cost, likely upping mage costs so the primary resource bottleneck is caster time rather than gem cost, probably introducing pathless researchers all around, potentially rejiggering the sites and making forging costless as well... it'd be a hell of a project, and would probably require figuring out some way to decouple fatigue and gem costs :-\
E: Oooh. It does fun things to AI spell selection. Scout was in indie provice that enemy attacked. Indie provice had an A6 illusionist. Phantasmal army every. Single. Turn.
Poor abysia...
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on January 25, 2014, 02:35:20 am
Post by: Frumple on January 25, 2014, 02:39:27 am
And D4's spell list is... not exactly ordered, near as I can tell. You'd basically have to go through each and every spell individually, check if it's something that needs adjusting, adjust it, and... yeah. There's around 900 and a bit spells in D4 and they're just kinda' scattered about the spell IDs. Don't wanna' :P
E: Other things like Lemuria! Or ermor, I guess. But seriously:
Spoiler: Look at 'em go (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Wheeee (click to show/hide)
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 24, 2014, 08:34:07 pm
Link. (http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM4TA/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascension)
It's great fun. Join us. Join uuuuuuus.
Post by: Niveras on March 24, 2014, 06:49:10 pm
Post by: BFEL on March 25, 2014, 06:21:42 am
Is there any real reason for me to get Dom4?
I mean, to be honest it sounds like its exactly the same game.
Post by: Shadowgandor on March 25, 2014, 06:52:46 am
So, question: I have Dominions 3.
Is there any real reason for me to get Dom4?
I mean, to be honest it sounds like its exactly the same game.
It's pretty much Dom3, only improved in every way. Whether you want to spend money on that or no is your decision. I'm still not sure whether I feel it was worth the money
Post by: snelg on March 25, 2014, 07:18:23 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 25, 2014, 08:08:49 am
It's not a revolutionary improvement. It's an evolutionary one. It's probably along the lines of Dom1->Dom2 in terms of scope. A lot of UI improvements, rule refinements and rebalancings, new mechanics (e.g. thrones, revamped fortresses, non-fortress recruitment for certain nations, poptype-based PD, etc. etc.), improved modding functionality, a number of new nations (EA Phoneticians and Babylonians, EA Machaka, MA Bogarus, Carrion Woods/Soulgate as freestanding nations, Oceania split in two), some new pretenders, a lot of enrichment to underground and underwater play (e.g., new native poptypes and summons, aquatic PD for non-aquatic nations), updated graphics for a lot of old units... It's mostly (mostly) small changes, but it's a lot of small changes. I'd say it's worth it.
Post by: Neonivek on March 25, 2014, 10:05:53 am
Post by: snelg on March 25, 2014, 02:04:52 pm
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/dom4/dom4log.html (http://jaffa.illwinter.com/dom4/dom4log.html)
Post by: Culise on March 25, 2014, 02:26:17 pm
As silly as it sounds I kind of wanted there to be even more pretenders then the 4th had, especially for the under water races.
I don't think it's silly at all. I'm still hoping for an underwater revamp to match the cave revamp. Pelagia and Oceania could do with some serious love; Oceania wasn't wonderful in Dom3, and the split did neither of them any real favours. These nations and underwater pretenders in general both have a serious problem with path diversity (Water path isn't nearly the "win button" of Astral, Death, or Blood), and more pretenders could help quite a bit with that.
Oh, and EA Rus. ^_^
Post by: E. Albright on March 25, 2014, 02:32:40 pm
Devlog mentions new pretenders for the next update if I understand it right, not sure exactly what they are though.
Based on the names, Maharishi and Raksharani should be a great guru and a raksha queen. As for "Caelum gods", yeah, no idea. Presumably something Zoroastern. But the next patch looks like Caelum is getting a serious massaging, so it should be interesting.
Post by: Bluerobin on March 25, 2014, 02:34:56 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 25, 2014, 02:36:06 pm
Based on the names, Maharishi and Raksharani should be a great guru and a raksha queen. As for "Caelum gods", yeah, no idea. Presumably something Zoroastern. But the next patch looks like Caelum is getting a serious massaging, so it should be interesting.
Awesome. As a fan of the birds, I wonder what kind of stuff Caelum is going to get? Slightly better mages would be nice start...
Post by: E. Albright on March 25, 2014, 02:48:02 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 25, 2014, 02:50:50 pm
I couldn't help but notice that "seasonal mages" was added in the change log at the same time that the Caelum changes started popping up in there. So I'm kinda tempted to think there may be some coming of those for them.
So maybe special mages that they can only recruit during the wintertime? That actually sounds pretty interesting. Depends on their paths though.
Post by: E. Albright on March 25, 2014, 02:57:36 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 25, 2014, 02:59:00 pm
My first thought was mages whose power ebbs and flows with the changing of the seasons.
Huh. That would be... pretty annoying, actually. Though I guess that it could also apply to something like T'ien C'hi or something.
Post by: snelg on March 25, 2014, 03:20:59 pm
Based on the names, Maharishi and Raksharani should be a great guru and a raksha queen. As for "Caelum gods", yeah, no idea. Presumably something Zoroastern. But the next patch looks like Caelum is getting a serious massaging, so it should be interesting.Yeah, the new India based pretenders are kind of straight forward. Not sure what "Caelum gods", "Caelum Pretenders" or "Some pretenders" refers to in the notes though.
Post by: Brewster on March 29, 2014, 07:28:55 pm
Post by: Karlito on March 29, 2014, 07:56:31 pm
My first thought was mages whose power ebbs and flows with the changing of the seasons.
I think we've already got units who can get stat bonuses in certain seasons, so it'd be neat if there could be some path bonuses as well.
Post by: Retropunch on March 29, 2014, 08:04:19 pm
I get that there's TONS of spells, and it's great fun to use them and summon hordes of monsters and things, but the AI feels a bit flat, there's no diplomacy as far as I can tell, and the micromanagement is utter hell.
The sheer amount of content is great, but to me that doesn't really equal deepness of mechanics which is always talked about. I really feel I might be missing something or just haven't appreciated some aspect of it properly as it's just never thrilled me as much as it seems to other people. I always seem to be able to mop up the AI just with spamming recruitment, a few summons and a few other spells (as well as some forging), and never feel that it gets that tactical. I get that loads of units have different skills/bonuses and whatever, but it still feels as though I'm mostly just slogging my units at the AI until I win.
Also, does anyone know if there are any graphical upgrades/packs? I'm not normally one to complain, but I find it painful after a while.
Again, I've enjoyed what I've played of it and really do want to go further into the complexity, but mostly it just feels like insane micromanagement.
Post by: TempAcc on March 29, 2014, 08:07:57 pm
Post by: Retropunch on March 29, 2014, 08:14:00 pm
The deepness of the mechanics only actualy shows up in multiplayer, in all honesty this game only shows how incredible it can be when you're facing off against actual players that can make use of the huge spell variety and different strategies.
I thought that might be the case. I'm not really a fan of turn based strategy multi-player, as I always feel rushed in my turns and the waiting gets tiresome until mid/late game. I might have to try it sometime though I guess.
Post by: Kaitol on March 29, 2014, 08:27:18 pm
Or did they change that for 4?
Post by: Neonivek on March 29, 2014, 08:33:31 pm
Errr.. from what I recall.. dominions multiplayer is everyone does their turns, than turns them into the host, the turn resolves, and everyone gets a new turn to play. Generally only one or two turns happen per day, so you're not holding anyone up really unless you take more than a day for one turn.
Or did they change that for 4?
Honestly I got 4 because I thought they fixed that... then I was astonished when I found out "Yep... we are still doing play by email"
Post by: BFEL on March 29, 2014, 08:35:10 pm
The deepness of the mechanics only actualy shows up in multiplayer, in all honesty this game only shows how incredible it can be when you're facing off against actual players that can make use of the huge spell variety and different strategies.
I thought that might be the case. I'm not really a fan of turn based strategy multi-player, as I always feel rushed in my turns and the waiting gets tiresome until mid/late game. I might have to try it sometime though I guess.
The problem I have with the multiplayer is that its all PBEM. I hate the idea of waiting days or weeks RL time just to play a game. I could have beaten the game like 12 times over in that span.
Actually this is an issue I have with computer games in general, all the mucking around with opening ports and shit. Feel like I'm stuck in the seventies sometimes.
But, anyway, wondering what some people would think of a "War Bow" strategy? Specifically, there is an item known as a "war bow" which fires 15 or so arrows at once. Now bear with me on this, but the Raksashas have four arms and can thus dual wield bows right? So we give two of these to each raksasha commander, have them lead max numbers of the little archermonkies, and then cover the entire universe in arrows. Step 3:???? Step 4: Profit.
Note: using Dom3, not sure how this would go in Dom4.
Post by: Neonivek on March 29, 2014, 08:40:45 pm
Archery has sort of an issue...
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 29, 2014, 08:43:22 pm
Of course you would first have to find or set one up since most games* still use llamaserver for whatever reason.
* I do not stalk each and every dominions 4 community on the web, who knows what's out there.
As for the warbow thing, you can improve the accuracy by getting an A bless and/or giving the commander an eye of aiming. Add in friendly mage casting Aim (or selfcast eagle eyes) and you've got an ungodly precision.
Not sure it's worth all that bother but you can do it. Throw in flaming arrows for extra hilarity.
Post by: Karlito on March 29, 2014, 08:56:15 pm
Post by: BFEL on March 29, 2014, 09:07:31 pm
Wasn't there some nation that had four armed commanders? :P
Because normal warbow spam is good, but I really just want to be Ranger from 8-Bit Theatre.
Dual Wieldin mah Dual Wield and all that XD
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 29, 2014, 09:10:25 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 29, 2014, 09:12:26 pm
Anyways, if you don't mind sinking a bunch of gems on giving extra arms to your commanders, it's completely possible to dual-wield warbows. Of course they can't have eyes of aiming in that case, and honestly you could have done things much more cheaply with indie commanders, but... It's an (awesome) option.
EDIT:
EA Kailasa, MA Bandar Log and LA Patala can summon a "Siddha" with four arms. Too bad it's really high up the conjuration tree and costs a bundle of pearls so you won't be seeing them in a long while. I'm not aware of any other 4handers.
Post by: Frumple on March 29, 2014, 09:25:55 pm
As for arrow spam in general, it's not really the worst of ideas (especially for, y'know, those handful of nations that are really good at it -- anyone with longbows, poison bow whatsits, etc.). Throw in some dudes with some sort of moral-hitting spam (terror, etc.) and you can cause plenty of armies to route pretty easily. Arguably worse than worthless against your average SC or thug (they'll survive the arrow rain, get into your army, and then the arrow rain kills more of your dudes than theirs), but eh.
And, of course, the fun lasts right up until someone can cast rain or darkness (or both, for great fun), and then your entire archer force gets flattened, forever.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 29, 2014, 09:28:40 pm
Yeah, bronze or copper arm or something like that. Should be... 3e1f? Around there. Needs some sort of e/f caster, anyway. Either the second or third tier of construction, too. It's pretty costly, gem/caster/research wise.
Ah, you are correct. About pretty much everything, actually. It's 1F3E, and you need const. 6 to forge it.
As for arrow spam in general, it's not really the worst of ideas (especially for, y'know, those handful of nations that are really good at it -- anyone with longbows, poison bow whatsits, etc.). Throw in some dudes with some sort of moral-hitting spam (terror, etc.) and you can cause plenty of armies to route pretty easily. Arguably worse than worthless against your average SC or thug (they'll survive the arrow rain, get into your army, and then the arrow rain kills more of your dudes than theirs), but eh.
...
Longbows and Panic make a good early-game combination? Really?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 29, 2014, 09:35:35 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 29, 2014, 09:37:38 pm
I don't know the specifics, but when a unit takes damage it makes a morale check. Fail a check = rout. I don't know if spells like panic and frighten lower morale or just force additional morale checks, same goes for fear. Either way, do a lot of constant damage (like say.. an arrow barrage) and spam other sources of "I wet myself" on the enemy and you make them run pretty fast. Depends on the enemy of course. Indy barbarians will run a lot faster than blessed elite sacreds.
...
Awesome. I really need to play EA Ur in my next multiplayer game then. They're starting to sound better and better with each passing moment.
Post by: BFEL on March 29, 2014, 09:44:58 pm
Although...how easy are dom games to mod? :P
I will totally make a custom nation based entirely around arrow spam XD
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 29, 2014, 09:46:24 pm
Although...how easy are dom games to mod? :P
The Copper Arm's effect is hardcoded in the game. Sorry to nick that in the bud...
I will totally make a custom nation based entirely around arrow spam XD
LA Man?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 29, 2014, 09:49:58 pm
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=1605&st=0&#entry22069449
Post by: BFEL on March 29, 2014, 10:19:45 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 29, 2014, 10:36:49 pm
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42737
It's burnsaber's (a fairly prolific dom 3/4 modder) guide for basic spritework using GIMP.
As for the actual modding with the unit stats and all, I don't know. I guess you check the modding manual and continue from there. There's a modding section in the official desura forums and dom4mods has as the name implies quite a few modders in their ranks. Either place is probably a decent place to ask more if you're serious about starting to mod something.
Post by: Frumple on March 29, 2014, 10:53:45 pm
Yeah I've seen that before, so how does one start on the path to modding?Mostly with a text editor, ha. There's also a vaguely ridiculously huge modding manual for D3, and probably something similar for D4. You might take a gander at this thing (https://code.google.com/p/dom4editor/), but from what I understand most of your scut work would be done via simple text. Probably something like notepad++. And yeah, check around the forums -- there's good stuff at both the places Delta mentioned. Downloading a few mods and poking them to see how they were done is, of course, also a good idea.
Post by: E. Albright on March 30, 2014, 12:30:30 am
Also, if anyone's gotten bored of the stock nations already, NationGen has been ported and is undergoing continued development (http://koti.kapsi.fi/~elmokki/dom4/unitgen/). It's currently up to Humans (of the European, Asian, and African varieties), Atlantians, Abysians, Caelians, Apes, Fomorians, Argathans, Lizards, Hoburgs, and Zotz, with more still coming down the pipe from the author and community. I'm actually picking away at Amazon stats/sprite components, albeit sloooooooowly...
NationGen also includes the author's reasonably robust SpriteGen tool that can be used to cobble together basic sprites from pre-existing components.
Post by: Neonivek on March 30, 2014, 01:29:29 am
But are the tigers actually supposed to be tigers? Or are they meant to be some sort of mythical tiger horse mount?
Post by: BFEL on March 30, 2014, 02:01:49 am
I know this is a silly question..
But are the tigers actually supposed to be tigers? Or are they meant to be some sort of mythical tiger horse mount?
Neither, they are obviously just british people dressed in costumes of tigers.
Post by: E. Albright on March 30, 2014, 03:14:14 am
Spoiler: E.g. (click to show/hide)
(Yeah, I know, it seems more reasonable with monkey riders. But still. NationGen has never been known for putting "being reasonable" at the very top of its to-do list.)
Post by: Mindmaker on March 30, 2014, 04:12:56 am
It's amazing.
Post by: Retropunch on March 30, 2014, 07:14:12 am
What about AI mods, does anyone know a decent one?
AI mods in SupCom made it go from barely playable to pretty intense, similarly with GalCiv2 so I'm sure a similar thing could/might have been done? I looked on the official forums and couldn't find much though.
I started another game today in which I tried to play a bit more tactically rather than just spamming everything and it's a bit more fun. I feel the problem is that I KNOW I can win just by spamming stuff. Any good race combinations to play against?
Post by: BFEL on March 30, 2014, 08:48:14 am
Urgh I hate PBEM.Can you start a game against multiple Late Age Ermors? :P
What about AI mods, does anyone know a decent one?
AI mods in SupCom made it go from barely playable to pretty intense, similarly with GalCiv2 so I'm sure a similar thing could/might have been done? I looked on the official forums and couldn't find much though.
I started another game today in which I tried to play a bit more tactically rather than just spamming everything and it's a bit more fun. I feel the problem is that I KNOW I can win just by spamming stuff. Any good race combinations to play against?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 30, 2014, 09:54:55 am
Yeah I've seen that before, so how does one start on the path to modding?
If you're talking about Dom 4 modding, holy crap is this thing useful. (https://code.google.com/p/dom4editor/) It basically handles most of the text editing, and gives you fields for entering all of the different options and things like that. I'm pretty sure that there is a version of this for Dom 3, but I have to go right now so I can't find it for you. Sorry. Still, I've used it before and it's very powerful and excellent for modding.
Post by: gimli on March 30, 2014, 10:40:57 am
Urgh I hate PBEM.
What about AI mods, does anyone know a decent one?
AI mods in SupCom made it go from barely playable to pretty intense, similarly with GalCiv2 so I'm sure a similar thing could/might have been done? I looked on the official forums and couldn't find much though.
I started another game today in which I tried to play a bit more tactically rather than just spamming everything and it's a bit more fun. I feel the problem is that I KNOW I can win just by spamming stuff. Any good race combinations to play against?
AFAIK the Dom 4. AI is hardcored sadly..
If you check the devlog here: http://jaffa.illwinter.com/dom4/dom4log.html
You can see that there are some AI improvements for the upcoming patch.
- AI item distribution improvements
- AI improved thug creation
- AI improved research item creation
- AI forge improvements
I am wondering when is the new patch coming, since they added/fixed so many stuff already. ::)
Post by: Retropunch on March 30, 2014, 12:21:10 pm
AFAIK the Dom 4. AI is hardcored sadly..
If you check the devlog here: http://jaffa.illwinter.com/dom4/dom4log.html
You can see that there are some AI improvements for the upcoming patch.
- AI item distribution improvements
- AI improved thug creation
- AI improved research item creation
- AI forge improvements
I am wondering when is the new patch coming, since they added/fixed so many stuff already. ::)
Ahh thanks for the info. I'm going to try setting myself up against a few pretty hardcore races in the late age and see what happens.
Post by: Mindmaker on March 30, 2014, 04:45:17 pm
Nations with good sacreds are manageable since you can just go for a couple of blesses and pick some scales with leftover points.
But what do I do with nations like LA Pangea?
I mean the don't really need an SC, their sacreds aren't that great for blessing. Sure they are scales heavy, but even after adjusting those what pretender do I pick and what do I do with leftover points? I assume you try to make up for their lack of magic variety, but I don't have a clue what would be good for them.
Post by: moghopper on March 30, 2014, 04:51:46 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 30, 2014, 04:54:50 pm
-snip-
If anybody could answer this that'd be lovely, because I honestly have no idea either, and generally just go off of what the Doms 3 guides say to do.
Quick question: How does Orb lightning work exactly? From the wording of the spell description it sounds like you have to cast Orb lightning, then lightning to get the extra bolts. Is that how it works?
It's a combat spell, just like any other. The only difference is that high-level air mages can fling out multiple bolts per casting of Orb Lightning, instead of just the one with Lightning Bolt.
Post by: moghopper on March 30, 2014, 05:07:08 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 30, 2014, 05:08:41 pm
Ah. That clears things up a bit. Thanks.
You're welcome.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 30, 2014, 05:14:29 pm
--
I'm still learning that myself but here's what I'm thinking after taking a quick look at LA Pan.
Dormant Titan of War and Wisdom
Dom6 order-3, production-2, growth-2, misfortune-1.
A4E4S3
She can search, cast rituals, cast in battle, fight and provides a shroud bless for your pans.
A4E4 is a pretty good mage bless. It's worth pointing out that LA Pan's only sacred mage is actually pretty crappy for that kind of a bless. BUT! You can forge sacred shrouds (armour slot) with your S1 mages, which you can then give to your pans to have them autobless themselves. That might be worth it.
A4 gives the titan a lot of good selfbuffs if she needs to fight. You also get good access to some battlespells and can forge A boosters.
E4 likewise gives you rock solid selfbuffs for fighting and good battle spells. For forging you have E2 (+1 with boots) pans.
S3 alone gives you an S booster and paired with E lets you forge another S booster. They will be handy to hand out to some of your S1's. S3 risks your pretender to mind duel, and S1's seem to be pretty common in LA. That's a risk worth keeping in mind. Combatwise S3 gives you some decent self buffs and you can communion her with centaur sages to cast some bigger S magic.
If you want to drop the S, you can instead pick Titan of Heaven A4E4 which will net you an additional point of dominion and another scale. Your pretender lacks the achille's heel of S3, but also can't forge any S boosters. Neither can your nation. I'd probably go with the War&Wisdom chick because of that.
Or you can just read an up to date guide for LA Pan written by someone who actually rocks at this game:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2057
Post by: Mindmaker on March 30, 2014, 05:27:03 pm
-snip-Well your reply cam up when I was about to post mine.
Dom4 Inspector claims that Pans aren't sacred, only the dryad is.
Thanks for those hints.
Oh and I've read the guide already it's pretty good (I know that person, he's currently in the same steam chat as me), but I'm trying to get a more basic and intuitive understanding of the whole magic system.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 30, 2014, 05:34:15 pm
Well your reply cam up when I was about to post mine.
Dom4 Inspector claims that Pans aren't sacred, only the dryad is.
That is true. The shrouds I mentioned confer your bless effects to any commander wearing it, sacred or not. So any Pan with a shroud gets +2 precision +2 reinvigoration.
I feel that understanding of the magic system comes with experience. Don't really know any good ways to teach it.
edit: the shroud gives +2prec+2reinv only if you created your god with A4E4, of course.
The item is called "Shroud of the Battle Saint", is S1 (= 5 pearls) and requires construction-4 to forge.
Post by: Karlito on March 30, 2014, 05:34:22 pm
Orb lightning also has a fairly short range (not melee-close, but you have to risk the mages a bit) I think. Nothing you have to worry about too much with good placement though.
I've ended up in trouble trying to script orb lightening for the first round of combat. Since there weren't any enemies in range they couldn't cast it and went completely off-script.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 30, 2014, 05:40:22 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on March 30, 2014, 05:46:11 pm
That is true. The shrouds I mentioned confer your bless effects to any commander wearing it, sacred or not. So any Pan with a shroud gets +2 precision +2 reinvigoration.Think a Titan or Rivers with 2W3S and 5 Dominion, 1 Order, 3 Growth and 1 Drain could be any good?
I feel that understanding of the magic system comes with experience. Don't really know any good ways to teach it.
edit: the shroud gives +2prec+2reinv only if you created your god with A4E4, of course.
The item is called "Shroud of the Battle Saint", is S1 (= 5 pearls) and requires construction-4 to forge.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 30, 2014, 05:49:33 pm
Think a Titan or Rivers with 2W3S and 5 Dominion, 1 Order, 3 Growth and 1 Drain could be any good?
Definitely not. A Titan of Rivers is not a good super combatant out of the box, so you should make it sleeping/dormite/whatever-the-second-option-is to get some more points and better everything. Or look at another pretender that'd do better awake.
Just my two cents.
Post by: Mindmaker on March 30, 2014, 05:56:20 pm
Well wasn't meant as an SC, but I thought that you'd get 4W4S with boosters so it might add some spell variety to Pangea.Think a Titan or Rivers with 2W3S and 5 Dominion, 1 Order, 3 Growth and 1 Drain could be any good?
Definitely not. A Titan of Rivers is not a good super combatant out of the box, so you should make it sleeping/dormite/whatever-the-second-option-is to get some more points and better everything. Or look at another pretender that'd do better awake.
Just my two cents.
On the other hand I'd probably only use her for site searching earlygame so I probably would really be better of with dormant or sleeping.
God damn, spending what little of a free evening I have on designing pretenders instead of playing.
Edit: Oh whatever, rolling with Delta Foxtrots suggestion.
Edit 2: One more thing. Why does everybody seem to prefer Order over Growth? Shouldn't the latter give you more in the long run? I mean I understand that Order is better for Blitz games, but for long runnig games?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 30, 2014, 06:09:55 pm
Think a Titan or Rivers with 2W3S and 5 Dominion, 1 Order, 3 Growth and 1 Drain could be any good?
I haven't actually played any LA Pan, this is all just conjecture based on what dominions variant of common sense I've gathered.
Dom5 is definitely low, not horrible against AI but you're just asking for a domkill if you take that to MP. 6 or 7 is generally recommended just to avoid dying.
2W3S is very light on magic. I don't really see much reason to boost W but higher S could be nice if you ever take her to a battlefield. W4 for searching/minor boost to your sacreds might come cheap. It's not a huge thing but worth putting your excess points into.
You're not taking any production? LA Pan is a pretty resource heavy nation to play without it. I think a little magic/drain scale is a matter of opinion. I'm not too comfortable with drain but some people do pretty well with it. I'd switch order-1 growth-3 around since order gives more gold per scale than growth. Growth is probably better if you plan on going into blood at any point though.
Keeping her awake would give you about 24 water gems extra and 12 successful temple checks, but I'd still be tempted to make her dormant and go heavier into scales or deeper into astral.
Note that W boosters are a cloak requiring W3 at const-4 and a bracelet requiring W1 at const-6. So you'd be at const-6 before you can start boosting your pretender, that's a long time and I'm not sure W4 has that many big spells worth boosting into. Sure there are good spells (Falling frost and liquify for instance) but they require mass of casters a single god can't provide.
I'd take another pretender entirely but if I was going with a Titan of Rivers, I'd take dom6 or 7 (I prefer higher but Pan gets cheap temples IIRC), more scales and deeper astral. I'd just ignore that the W even exists on that chassis during pretender creation.
Post by: Mindmaker on March 30, 2014, 06:19:56 pm
Dom5 is definitely low, not horrible against AI but you're just asking for a domkill if you take that to MP. 6 or 7 is generally recommended just to avoid dying.Well they do have cheap temples so I assumed it wouldn't be too bad.
Quote
You're not taking any production? LA Pan is a pretty resource heavy nation to play without it. I think a little magic/drain scale is a matter of opinion. I'm not too comfortable with drain but some people do pretty well with it. I'd switch order-1 growth-3 around since order gives more gold per scale than growth. Growth is probably better if you plan on going into blood at any point though.I actually did take production, but I forgot to include it in my post.
The drain was taken because you have a very good researcher.
I'll go with your first suggestion on pretender design and see if I can familiarize myself with the magic. Tomorrow that is.
Thanks a bunch.
Any why exactly is Order prefered over Growth? Doesn't the population increase production and gold income?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 30, 2014, 06:31:33 pm
Any why exactly is Order prefered over Growth? Doesn't the population increase production and gold income?
Yes, but it takes time for the increased population to compensate for the lower income. And you definitely want more gold now than later. You need a ton of gold in the early game, to recruit expansion parties, set up temples and forts, so the more gold you have in the early game means that you have a better leg-up in the middle/late game.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 30, 2014, 06:46:29 pm
Dom5 is doable, particularly with cheaper temples. But it's always a bit tricky. Basically it's one of those "do it if you know what you're doing" type of things. Higher starting dom also spreads your scales faster early on, which is good if you have good scales.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 30, 2014, 06:51:29 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 30, 2014, 07:18:20 pm
Using her as awake you get:
A3E4N2 (mostly for self buffing, though E4 is a compromise as a useful bless and a good battlepath)
Dom7 O3S1H2G3M1M0
You could tweak the sloth/temp/drain scale to get more points for A4E4 if you like. I'm probably overly cautious in suggesting just sloth-1. When thinking about sacred mages it's good to keep in mind what kind of spells they will be casting. Evocations usually require some precision to find their target while troop buffs tend to hit pretty well in my experience.
Also Ur has A2 mages who can spam aim for the other mages. No reason you couldn't double dip with A4+ bless but it's not strictly speaking necessary.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 31, 2014, 03:20:02 pm
-snip-
The thing with A4 is that she can then forge air boosters and staff of storms later on, which could be very useful and give me access to the Queens of Storms and things like that. Plus a little extra precision for spell casting never hurts.
Anyways, going to try some more testing with her. The second battle saw her getting ganked by some Wolf tribesmen, so... Awe isn't entirely perfect?
EDIT: She only routed this time. So... Yay? I get the feeling that I'm missing something here. How would you expand with an awake pretender? Also, she does very little damage too. Blah.
EDIT2: Rushing for Const. 2 and giving her some gear seemed to work much better. The only problem is... rushing for Const. 2 and giving her some gear. Ur has pretty good troops, and I feel like I might as well just make her dormant for the extra points and scales.
Post by: Frumple on March 31, 2014, 04:50:34 pm
And yeah, looking at it, an annuki of love and war would be kinda' terrible for out-of-box early solo expansion. Low prot, relatively low HP, no AoE and only two attacks, fatigable (and worse, flying, which chews up fatigue like damn), and a pair of built in route bait. Also low defense! She's got basically nothing built in except the awe that makes for a good army killer. About the only annuki I'm seeing that would be semi-decent at immediate expansion might be the sweet waters one -- water elementals are pretty beefy vs. indie chaff.
What you're looking for with an early soloer is being hard to kill (which needs more than just awe -- a virtue, ferex, would probably do a lot better) and having either a means to flat kill indies or make them route (though the former ties in to the latter, of course :P). Fear and AoE or trample, plus high defense/protection (either/or, or preferably both) and/or high HP, is what you're looking for in most cases. An Annuki of L&W has... well, none of that. She's got the awe and a middling amount of HP, but basically nothing else.
E: It's not something Ur has access to, but if you're looking for an absolutely sterotypical 1st-turn expander you need look no further than the Ancient Kraken. Fear, bucketloads of HP, tons of attacks and an AoE poison effect (which stacks up even more morale checks over time). It can usually take one province a turn, every turn, until there's no more water provinces to take.
E2: If you're looking for a first-turn expander for Ur, I'd say your best options would be the Virtue (though that's a bit riskier due to no-prot -- it looks like you might be able to turn-2 forge a black-steel breastplate, though. E3: Could definitely turn 2 a 'zerker pelt, which might be an even better idea.), the dragons, or the Shedu, or maybe the scorpion king (especially with some water bless, I guess. The def's a lil' low).
*It's an opposed morale check of some sort, so yeah, it's not perfect. It would do jack all vs. skellie spam, ferex, and it doesn't get really sexy until it mixes with some means of morale damage -- like a bit of fear.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 31, 2014, 04:58:47 pm
I guess I'll switch to a dormant pretender for Ur then. Ugh... Any suggestions?
Post by: E. Albright on March 31, 2014, 07:47:17 pm
An at-least minor E bless is strongly desirable for fatigable early-expansion pretenders.
Unless you're talking about disciples, having a dominion with a minor Earth bless will do nothing for the pretender's survivability.
And yeah, looking at it, an annuki of love and war would be kinda' terrible for out-of-box early solo expansion. Low prot, relatively low HP, no AoE and only two attacks, fatigable (and worse, flying, which chews up fatigue like damn), and a pair of built in route bait.
I can't find a source on it (or remember/find the hotkey to display the by-side rout numbers in combat), but I'm pretty sure autosummons don't count against the autorout calculation.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 31, 2014, 07:50:30 pm
I can't find a source on it (or remember/find the hotkey to display the by-side rout numbers in combat), but I'm pretty sure autosummons don't count against the autorout calculation.
I can confirm through anecdotal evidence that the lions don't cause the pretender to rout. Besides, with 30 Morale and more than twice the HP of the lionesses, would it even be a problem?
Post by: Frumple on March 31, 2014, 08:01:37 pm
Unless you're talking about disciples, having a dominion with a minor Earth bless will do nothing for the pretender's survivability.*blinks* Oh... odd. For some reason, my memory was telling me there's some way to get reinvig via caster levels. Do believe that was a mistake on my part, yeah.
Though it would do a little, ha. E levels come with some prot :P
I can confirm through anecdotal evidence that the lions don't cause the pretender to rout. Besides, with 30 Morale and more than twice the HP of the lionesses, would it even be a problem?If it counts, it counts. Autorout is autorout. But yeah, if they're not enough to trigger the HP threshold it probably wouldn't be an issue. Was operating under the assumption they did and were sufficient, heh.
If it doesn't, then not so much of a problem. Doesn't help the poor lass much, but it wasn't as bad as I thought.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 31, 2014, 08:05:31 pm
If it doesn't, then not so much of a problem. Doesn't help the poor lass much, but it wasn't as bad as I thought.
Honestly, the only time I've seen her route was when both of the lions died, and she was down to around one tenth of her health. Otherwise she was perfectly fine with fighting it out to the death.
Also, eyeloss shield is pretty damn awesome. Especially with awe, since they'd lose an eye even if they can't beat it.
Post by: Frumple on March 31, 2014, 08:11:18 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 31, 2014, 08:13:02 pm
Haha, oh yes. Several of the shields are kinda' incredible, and the eyeloss one is one of the earliest ones available. Excellent on defensive critters for just ruining entire armies, heh.
Yep. I assume that it's useless on the undead, but then again most armies aren't undead. Add in some regen and good defence and... start laughing, I guess. Or at least until magic comes into play.
Post by: E. Albright on March 31, 2014, 08:27:48 pm
Honestly, the only time I've seen her route was when both of the lions died, and she was down to around one tenth of her health. Otherwise she was perfectly fine with fighting it out to the death.
I did a quick test of throwing her into hostile dominion that started her at 15 HP, and she roundly ignored the lionesses' deaths in multiple battles. I also tried it with the lion-headed male pretender who starts with a random number of lions and saw him laugh off their deaths in a battle where he started with 5-6 of them and 15-ish HP. I'm nigh to certain escorts don't count for routing.
Post by: BFEL on March 31, 2014, 08:41:34 pm
This was obviously against AI, but I made a imprisoned crone with full negative scales and just tacked on basically ALL the magic levels.
It...didn't work out too well, but with some refinement I think it could work for something like R'lyeh or LA Ermor where your scales do pretty much nothing.
Also, I remember when a strategy of mine was to take 3 Turmoil and 3 Luck, for hilarious amounts of awesome random events.
Post by: Frumple on March 31, 2014, 08:43:01 pm
The closest thing to a problem with the ultrabless is that most of the nations that don't get crippled by scales that bad don't really have the sacreds to pull off a bless strat. The exception might actually be LA Ermor in D4, though. Consuls are freaking beasts* even without a bless. Though that's more an "SCs SCs everywhere" strat than your conventional bless strat. Sorta' like Jotun occasionally does with those big frost giants, iirc.
*They're basically half cost, zero research wraith lords.
Post by: AlStar on March 31, 2014, 09:10:23 pm
I'm currently in a major waffle mode with the 50% sale that's going on.
Post by: E. Albright on March 31, 2014, 09:55:44 pm
Post by: Farce on March 31, 2014, 11:22:50 pm
I loved Dom 3, but never played multiplayer - just mucked about in single and occasionally played hotseat with my bro them (which more often than not died out before anything happened). Effective builds and strategies elude me pretty bad, but I enjoy mucking about.
Kinda miss the game listing your titles when you make your pretender, though. "All hail Fennag" is a lot less impressive than "All hail Fennag, Lord of Bones, Keeper of the Secrets, God of Blood, Stevedore of Flies" and all that rot. I know it's still in, though, cuz' I recall seeing it at some point in an annoucement - I think a Pretender death or something.
Post by: E. Albright on March 31, 2014, 11:36:10 pm
Post by: Farce on April 01, 2014, 03:16:45 am
So where do I dig that up, then? Pretender description?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 01, 2014, 07:45:53 am
---
So I actually played Ur a bit today. Against indies their troops seem good, if somewhat expensive. Naked lady of love and war got mangled by most indies early on. She definitely needs some buffs/gear to get going. But at fairly basic titan stats, flying and inbuilt awe, she has the potential to bust some heads. You could take her awake and research alt or const for a few levels, not sure if it's worth it. Right now I feel that Ur could do best with a dormant pretender to max our some scales or to get a nice cheap bless (like A4E4 or E4+). The sacred troops don't seem worth a major bless and their best non-fort mage isn't sacred either so I'm reluctant to vouch for anything higher than say E6.
I really like the intrinsic flying Love&War has, but I guess it's not a must since Ur has plenty of A2 mages. You could replicate the effect with flying boots for non-flying titans, but you can get reinvig+2 boots of the messenger (+3 in the next patch) instead. Other gods in the pantheon have flying too, but I'm not sure if others have as good paths as Love&War has.
Certainly looks like a workable nation. I'd probably research alteration early on, there's a bunch of good AWEN spells there that your nationals can cast that would help you keep those pricy 17g chaff units alive. Foo-warriors, arrow fend, some offensive stuff and buffs for the dormant god. Yeah, I think that's worth looking into.
Expansion seemed pretty swell against low to mid strength indies with some spear guards for arrow bait and unarmoured enkidu soldiers a bit to the back ready to hack away with their hatchets.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 01, 2014, 10:52:00 am
-snip-
Good to know that Ur doesn't completely suck.
Seriously though, EA Ur is the only nation in Doms 4 that really interests me. Their shamans are amazing and recruit everywhere, their archers are equipped with longbows, they have giants for troops, excellent leaders/generals, and lots of fun stuff. I can't wait for an EA game to really play them.
Post by: E. Albright on April 01, 2014, 01:24:46 pm
Right now I feel that Ur could do best with a dormant pretender to max our some scales or to get a nice cheap bless (like A4E4 or E4+).
Really? I'm not normally one to go for awake pretenders, but I'd really be more tempted to go with one for them than with most other nations simply because of their "no pathloss"/elegists combo. Admittedly, they have no access to pretenders with recuperation, so you're still risking permanent damage, but it seems like the reduced risk to an awake SC would possibly make it worth pursuing.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 01, 2014, 01:27:51 pm
Really? I'm not normally one to go for awake pretenders, but I'd really be more tempted to go with one for them than with most other nations simply because of their "no pathloss"/elegists combo. Admittedly, they have no access to pretenders with recuperation, so you're still risking permanent damage, but it seems like the reduced risk to an awake SC would possibly make it worth pursuing.
The problem is that their mages cost quite a bit gold, so you need good scales to recruit a large/competent mage force. So it's a bit of a balancing act, honestly.
Post by: Neonivek on April 01, 2014, 01:37:50 pm
I think there are non-super-combatant "awake viable" pretenders but I honestly don't remember who they are if they exist.
Post by: E. Albright on April 01, 2014, 02:00:23 pm
Post by: Culise on April 01, 2014, 02:21:35 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 01, 2014, 02:56:42 pm
Spoiler: Best EA Race (click to show/hide)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 01, 2014, 02:58:39 pm
Spoiler: Best EA Race (click to show/hide)
No idea what you posted. You must have directly linked the picture, because all it says is 4chan.org.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 01, 2014, 03:05:44 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 01, 2014, 03:07:04 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 01, 2014, 07:03:56 pm
Really? I'm not normally one to go for awake pretenders, but I'd really be more tempted to go with one for them than with most other nations simply because of their "no pathloss"/elegists combo. Admittedly, they have no access to pretenders with recuperation, so you're still risking permanent damage, but it seems like the reduced risk to an awake SC would possibly make it worth pursuing.
Well you know how new I am to this game :P
But as has been said, Ur is an expensive nation. Troops start at 17g and they're nowhere near as durable as Hinnom's lineup and while most of their mages are sacred, they're still pricy and their best non-cap mage is both expensive and non-sacred. O3G3 seems like a very good idea.
Even then you have the issue which you mentioned, afflictions. I see the no-loss on magic paths as an added bonus, but definitely not something you plan a strategy around.
Besides, even with the elegy bonus on Call God, it's going to take several turns to resurrect a dead god in the early game. So I'm not seeing the benefit in taking one as an awake expander with the idea that you'll call it back whenever it croaks.
To me the no-path-loss and elegists seem more of a midgame bonus. Ur is one of the premier nations to be casting Gift of Health natively, only Pangaea seems to really be competing with them. Considering that, Ur seems like a nation that powers through the early game with its troops and adds a strong active god in during the midgame that loses no paths on death, gets called back superfast and heals its afflictions with natively casted GoH. Pure theorycraft bullcrap but it's the best I can do as I lack a completed Ur MP.
Post by: Frumple on April 01, 2014, 07:21:29 pm
Also dem items and free path diversification and heroes >_<
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 01, 2014, 07:35:03 pm
Order is not better than luck, but order gives more gold than luck. You simply can't rely on gold+ events to make up for the difference between turmoil and order.
Post by: Karlito on April 01, 2014, 07:37:06 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 01, 2014, 07:41:01 pm
I think there are many events tied to specific scales, might be worth looking into them at some point.
Post by: moghopper on April 03, 2014, 10:22:25 am
High stat/Prot troops, resource bonuses, cheap and effective chaff (War Dogs), great forging....
I think I'm in love.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 03, 2014, 10:30:09 am
Is it just me, or has MA Ulm become awesome now?
High stat/Prot troops, resource bonuses, cheap and effective chaff (War Dogs), great forging....
I think I'm in love.
You're forgetting the part where they have some of the worse paths in the game. F1E2 with a 10% chance of FAES does not a good caster make.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 03, 2014, 10:43:41 am
Doesn't make them any less fun to play though.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 03, 2014, 10:49:37 am
Thought the same about Marignon, but then you realize that they are a one-trick pony and easy to counter.
Doesn't make them any less fun to play though.
The difference being that MA Marignon's trick is fire magic, and thus is harder and takes longer to counter than 'Heavy troops with good protection'. Lots of spells/equipment negate or ignore armour, while fire resistance requires specific paths and more research to counter.
Post by: Culise on April 03, 2014, 11:16:46 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 03, 2014, 07:42:01 pm
Ulmish troops are good versus other troops, they can stand toe to toe against most others early on. Their pikes in particular are nasty. Not sure how they handle sacreds (I've heard guardians are good, never seen'em in action though) and they definitely get plastered by good magic. They also have map-move 1 almost across the board which I really dislike. Give me strategic mobility or give me death!
It's not a great nation but some people say it can be worked with. It's fairly one dimensional, looking at it from the outside. They have strong points, but those strong points are few and unflexible which isn't good in a prolonged match up. But in that case lucky indies and good pretender design can alleviate it to some degree.
Of course neither MA Ulm nor Marignon are considered particularly strong nations in the current meta.
Post by: moghopper on April 03, 2014, 08:20:27 pm
Great Infantry, Same awesome Angel summons as Marignon, Easy communions, Good mages, etc...
I think my top three nations for each era are:
EA- Maverni, Ermor, Ulm
MA- Pythium, Ulm, Marignon
LA- Marignon, Jomon, Bogarus
How about you all?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 03, 2014, 08:41:42 pm
They get cap-only blood mage that I haven't really tried, but I imagine that provides some good diversity to them if used properly. With that they also have the paths to forge a lot of N/E/B reinvigoration gear. Slap those on a Pan and you get +10 reinvigoration pretty fast if you calculate earthpower in.
I'm playing Jomon in a game here right now, it's alright. Some very good things, some ok things, a very capable nation in the right hands.
I've been eyeing quite a few nations lately, not sure which will get some good MP time next. Monkeys of all ages look fun with their cheap plentiful S mages and strong sacreds. LA Midgård, T'ien Ch'i and Gath all look very appealing too.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 03, 2014, 09:21:21 pm
6-12 months before Ermor ceased to be, I blitzed an army straight through Ermor's territory all the way to the castle their God was hiding in, only to have the entire army drop dead of old age within a month of reaching the castle - Although I had provided them with bags of supplies, I didn't have (at the time) any way to protect them from the aging effect. By the time Ermor ceased to be, I had discovered elixers of life and made several for my commanders, and had started pushing into Ermorian territory all along our border. Then they just went poof. I was a little disappointed since beating them didn't actually require doing anything except waiting for my dominion to overpower theirs.
Edit: Mictlan and Eriu just ceased to exist as well. I never even met Eriu. Looking at the scoregraphs, it's pretty obvious why... My dominion dwarfs everyone else's.
Post by: Frumple on April 03, 2014, 10:20:00 pm
I've been eyeing quite a few nations lately, not sure which will get some good MP time next. Monkeys of all ages look fun with their cheap plentiful S mages and strong sacreds. LA Midgård, T'ien Ch'i and Gath all look very appealing too.LA Mid has a delicious early game, iirc. Skinshifters steamroll a great deal of things until mage support really starts rolling in, and by that point you've got your own leverages. I... I'll admit I'm kinda' terrible with them past that point, though.
Post by: Boksi on April 03, 2014, 10:34:29 pm
Of course neither MA Ulm nor Marignon are considered particularly strong nations in the current meta.>:(
I don't think you've been paying enough attention to the current meta, then. MA Ulm got a massive boost in between 3 and 4. It was weak back in 3, yes, but a lot of changes in 4 benefit them. Their troops have gotten stronger: Reworked repel mechanics benefit their pikemen, the ability to pierce shields benefits their crossbowmen, not to mention that the encumbrance of their infantry has been decreased. The introduction of StR and the increase of research costs means that their strong troops stay relevant longer, especially since all their mages are non-StR. Their smiths can construct a five-gem item for one gem - that's a huge bonus! Get some air income going and recruit a lot of smiths for that tasty air random - mass produce owl quills to turbocharge your research! Not to mention that you can take as much drain as you want. Your smiths can also mass-produce a lot of other items, like bows of war, eyes of aiming, fires in jars, lightless lanterns, shrouds of the battle saint(if you want an Ulmish bless strategy), eyes of the void and spell foci. Not to mention that they're not too shabby in a fight. With Summon Earthpower they have E3 and reinvig, and with a fire in a jar they've got F2 from phoenix power; they've got access to magma eruption, rain of stones, blade wind, legions of steel, earth meld, destruction, strength of giants and their national iron foo spells, to name a few useful ones. Plus, their guardians can shut down sacreds hard, and they're seriously massable because they're not sacred and your smiths can add more resources to a province, so even if they're capital-only you can still recruit hordes of them.
Post by: Frumple on April 03, 2014, 11:50:05 pm
Gattai. How awesome would it be to summon up a fire elemental, summon up an air elemental, and then watch as they slam into each other and turn into a Raging Sirocco? Trigger for adjacent enemy of a particular ID, probably a battlefield one, too. Maybe even a check flag for surrounding abilities -- demon dog that turns into frothing doomtitan when near mindless enemies? Yessss...
Post by: Shadowlord on April 04, 2014, 10:15:00 am
Post by: Mindmaker on April 04, 2014, 10:17:23 am
The word "thug" is not in the manual, but I keep seeing it mentioned in connection to Dominions 4. What does it mean?A commander who with some items and support spells can take out provinces by himself.
Not the be confused with a SC (Super Combatant) who can do the same without items and spells.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 04, 2014, 10:18:30 am
The word "thug" is not in the manual, but I keep seeing it mentioned in connection to Dominions 4. What does it mean?
It's a type of unit that can clear out Province Defence on its own. An individual unit, mind you, not when used enmass. Usually involves forging them some good gear so that they don't get ganked.
A commander who with some items and support spells can take out provinces by himself.
Not the be confused with a SC (Super Combatant) who can do the same without items and spells.
Damn it, beat me to the punch.
Also, I'm pretty sure that a Super Combatant still needs items and spells to be effective. The major difference is that they can take out entire armies by themselves (hence the term Super Combatant).
Post by: PrimusRibbus on April 04, 2014, 10:43:10 am
Post by: Mindmaker on April 04, 2014, 11:20:34 am
Also, I'm pretty sure that a Super Combatant still needs items and spells to be effective. The major difference is that they can take out entire armies by themselves (hence the term Super Combatant).Dragons and Wyrms count as SCs and you use them to take out neutral provinces by themselves turn one.
Of course you can stick items on them, but they fare quite nicely without them.
Basically a thug becomes a thug through magic and items. If a unit can thug without items and spells he's a SC.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 04, 2014, 11:28:18 am
Dragons and Wyrms count as SCs and you use them to take out neutral provinces by themselves turn one.
Of course you can stick items on them, but they fare quite nicely without them.
Basically a thug becomes a thug through magic and items. If a unit can thug without items and spells he's a SC.
Eh... Let's just agree to disagree. We're just going to be arguing against each other otherwise.
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2014, 12:15:45 pm
The difference of course is that thugs NEED items.
I think the real issue here USEC is that the "Super combatants don't need items" is counter-intuitive for some people because... some Super Combatants really can use items or will later desperately need them (Some SC IMO are nearly useless later, in a combat role, because they can't get items... but for all I know there is a way to make them good). As well some "Super combatants" aren't going to be taking down armies on their own without items either because they aren't guaranteed to do so.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 04, 2014, 12:18:26 pm
Eh... Let's just agree to disagree. We're just going to be arguing against each other otherwise.
The above applies to what you just said, Neonivek. We obviously have different definitions of what constitutes a Thug and SC, and we're just going to talk past each other because of it.
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2014, 12:21:55 pm
Eh... Let's just agree to disagree. We're just going to be arguing against each other otherwise.
The above applies to what you just said, Neonivek. We obviously have different definitions of what constitutes a Thug and SC, and we're just going to talk past each other because of it.
I just thought the argument is more based off of a perceived strict definition that may or may not be true.
Or rather that people aren't really arguing with each other, they just think they are.
Also still mad about that Vine Arrow... Unstoppable killing machine destroyed by foliage.
Other then 50% miss rate, what are good items to put on Creature Pretenders? And are Creature Pretenders useless in combat in the long run?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 04, 2014, 12:25:59 pm
I just thought the argument is more based off of a perceived strict definition that may or may not be true.
Or rather that people aren't really arguing with each other, they just think they are.
Also still mad about that Vine Arrow...
Arguing might not have been the best word. But we obviously have different ideas of what a Thug or a SC is, so we're just going to talk pass each other and I have no idea why I'm still harping on this.
Whatever. The point is that Doms is fun and watching an individual unit stomp through entire armies of chaff is enjoyable, and I think we can all agree on that.
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2014, 12:33:50 pm
Too bad I have a feeling they aren't that good.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 04, 2014, 12:44:03 pm
My favorite Chaff are the Fairy Chaff. "Behold my army that looks 10 times larger then it really is!"
Too bad I have a feeling they aren't that good.
Honestly I don't know my chaff. I just recruit lots of grunts and hope that they don't die. Besides, what would you look for in chaff besides cheapness?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 04, 2014, 04:04:22 pm
There's no single authoritative definition of what constitutes a thug or SC other than "commander who kicks a lot of ass solo". Except some thugs work in small teams. Yeah.
One decent sounding definition I've heard is an economical one. Basically a thug costs around 5-15 gems while SC's are a lot more expensive. This gets blurry when you consider that some people like to use words like "heavy thug" and "light SC". Beats me what their precise definition is.
So let's not get too hung up on what's the difference between a thug and an SC.
___
@Boksi
Hot diggity, I was wrong about their encumbrance. It's 5-6 for most troops which isn't horribly high. Thanks for pointing that out. As I said, their troops are great in a fight and their battlemagic is very good. Good point bringing up their 4-gem discount forging. For some reason I forgot to mention that. Quite silly considering I've played in a disciple match alongside Ulm where the cornerstone of our strategy was to equip a ton of thugs with cheap gear and kill everything.
With all that I still wouldn't call them a strong nation. They're not weak or irredeemably broken in a bad way. But I wouldn't bet on them to win a match either.
I guess it depends on whether you view their strengths or weaknesses more. I see their low MR, poor magic diversity and lack of mobility on and off the battlefield as things that will bite them in the long run. Kitting all of your battle evokers with 1-gem girdle and 1-gem eye of aiming isn't enough to tilt the scales in my view.
Maybe I'll get beaten by late game MA Ulm someday and change my mind. I wouldn't discount the possibility.
___
re: good chaff
You want the expendable chaff to take hits instead of your more precious mages/units. High HP lets them take more hits, high morale (or 50/99 value that mindless and berserking units get) keeps them from routing as they get hit and good defence/protection/MR/resistances/buffs take the sting off of certain hits.
High HP is generally inherent in the unit, though the global enchantment "gift of health" can help that somewhat.
High morale is easier to "fix", as good leaders can provide +2 or +3 morale to their troops, wear items to boost it further and there's a H2 spell that boosts morale by 1 as well. So a standard 10 morale unit can with some effort reach 16+ morale.
There's plenty of buff spells you can cast on your troops. What you can and want to cast depends on your nation.
As an example, astral nations often cast body etheral/luck/twist fate on their troops. First makes the unit ethereal, negating 75% of all regular hits, luck provides a chance (25%? 75%? I forget) of negating any attack that would have killed the unit while twist fate negates the first hit the unit suffers (not counting instadeath effects of certain spells/items). Astral isn't the only school with such buffs, but I'm not about to write a Buff Guide: All the Nations here so that'll do.
___
re: Gear for monstrous pretenders
I like the horror helmet if I can get my hands on one. Fear is good to have, though many such pretenders already have innate fear. I'm not sure if it's worth it to stack it, but I do it anyway. They also usually have one or two misc slots, right? I guess the usual misc items work here: girdle of might or amulet of resilience for more of that sweet, sweet reinvigoration. Amulet of magic resistance if you need the MR boost (soul slay is a bitch). And of course the wound fend amulet (80% affliction protection, I think) helps keep the dragon useful for longer. Ring of regen is another that's really good on a high HP chassis. And I guess specific resistances if you're fighting specific nations, like fire/frost resistance ring if you're fighting niefelheim or abysia for instance.
I'm not sure if the monster pretenders are useless in combat in the long run. Sure as counters get researched and deployed it's going to be more dangerous for a dragon to fly around. But it's still a flying hulking piece of destructive force. You just need to be careful with it.
The more immediate reason you don't use a dragon or such later on is that it likely picked up some afflictions at some point when you used it earlier in the game. Some of those afflictions are pretty bad for a combat pretender and odds are you'll want to keep him in a lab after a while. Though afflictions are a thing that more humanoid SC's have to worry about too.
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2014, 04:20:09 pm
I can only guess the reason they don't do that is that the Water nations perceived "advantage" is their unapproachability.
Why they have so few pretenders has more to do with the fact that all the other nations have a lot of crossover.
Post by: Frumple on April 04, 2014, 04:49:37 pm
I like the horror helmet if I can get my hands on one. Fear is good to have, though many such pretenders already have innate fear. I'm not sure if it's worth it to stack it, but I do it anyway.It's totes worth it to stack fear, and even against stuff that's immune (dead stuff, etc.) the horror hat is actually a pretty decent helmet in and of itself. The extra head protection probably isn't going to hurt. It's a good item on pretty much anyone that's going to be seeing melee, if you've got the death gems for it.
Post by: gimli on April 05, 2014, 10:37:13 am
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/dominions-update-on-its-way
Post by: E. Albright on April 05, 2014, 03:08:36 pm
...
...I'm in two endgame matches right now, so the first word that comes to mind when I say this is "over-committing", but... might there be any interest in scaring up a Round 4.04? As a Disciple game? The one thing that my current (and for that matter, past) games have made clear to me is that I really am not entirely comfortable with "winner take all" and would be much happier working on a team so dagger-planting is not an inevitable part of the game. Would there be sufficient interest to cobble together a 3x3/3x4/4x3 match sometime later this month? I'd say wait for the 4.05 patch to come out so we could e.g. use the new Pretenders if we wanted, and/or have a few more potential players dropped out of rounds 3.15/4.01/4.02, but would there be interest enough for me to start a preliminary recruiting thread with eyes on delaying for a bit before spinning up the game?
Post by: Shadowgandor on April 05, 2014, 03:10:18 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 05, 2014, 03:14:45 pm
So you guys should definitely go for it, even if I don't have the time to join. If you get unlucky and need a sub midgame, I might be available. Hope it won't come to that though.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 05, 2014, 03:15:36 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 05, 2014, 03:28:40 pm
Definitely wait for the 4.05 to come out, but waiting for the bird patch on top of that could well take until autumn.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 05, 2014, 04:49:43 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 05, 2014, 04:58:20 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 05, 2014, 05:23:01 pm
Totally forgot about that.
Post by: E. Albright on April 05, 2014, 05:36:00 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 05, 2014, 07:14:18 pm
If it's past that date, sign me up.
Post by: Frumple on April 05, 2014, 07:52:33 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 05, 2014, 07:57:44 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 06, 2014, 05:33:26 pm
The murder everything short of a Dai Oni, rendering the whole investment lost.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 06, 2014, 06:00:17 pm
Cam't seem to get much out of my regular troops as Yomi, once I encounter other players.
The murder everything short of a Dai Oni, rendering the whole investment lost.
There is a reason that Yomi is considered one of the worse nations in the game, and obviously you have found it. Their troops suck balls. If it helps, general consensus seems to be that the Ko-Oni are the best units that Yomi has. Actually, I'm lying. The Bakemono Archers are. 8 gold short-bows and Flaming Arrows is a very deadly combination, after all.
EDIT: Yomi can also cast Wind Guide too, to increase the accuracy of the arrows and increase the pain. Still doesn't make them a very good nation though.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 06, 2014, 06:09:20 pm
Too bad you real players can counter them.
It's just a shame that my midgame consists of ~7 Yomi running around soloing everything.
I can't seem to be able to mass troops, since I'm constantly low on gold and what I can buy with 1400g worth of troops, I can do better with a 490g oni and some pieces of equipment.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 06, 2014, 06:15:35 pm
-snip-
Yep, pretty much. And Dai Oni are slow-to-recruit and only available in your capital too. But at least they have good MR, so it's slightly harder to banish/smite them.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 06, 2014, 06:49:48 pm
Order-3 means they get -3 (assuming Chaos Power-1, which I guess all or most troops have). At turmoil-3 they get +3. Every 15 points of unrest gives you +1 (so +0 stat modification in order-3 unrest-45 for example). You can only have max of +3, so at turmoil-3 unrest offers you no benefits.
I guess that negative 1-3 to most stats is what killed you. Since Yomi can't blood sacrifice, they probably want to get a strong dominion (one of the rare cases I'd seriously consider dom10). You also need to debate how much order/turmoil you want, since Yomi really really likes their gold (expensive demons yo!), but they really hate their stat penalties from order.
Back in dom3 Yomi didn't have chaos power (more like chaos weakness *sigh*), so you can't really read any old guides for them either and make things work.
I haven't actually played any Yomi beyond little SP. I've seen some talk elsewhere that states Yomi as one of the few really borked nations currently, maybe true maybe whining. Either way Yomi isn't an easy nation to get rolling in its current state.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 06, 2014, 07:11:50 pm
I can post a more detailed report on my situation tomorrow.
Post by: Culise on April 07, 2014, 09:31:22 am
Post by: moghopper on April 07, 2014, 12:03:01 pm
Post by: lijacote on April 07, 2014, 12:22:24 pm
Post by: moghopper on April 07, 2014, 12:25:32 pm
I'm sure if there's enough demand, we can just put up another game. 4.03 is newbie-only, but it's also full as of a couple of minutes ago.
We could start another one if we had the numbers...
Post by: lijacote on April 07, 2014, 12:27:52 pm
Post by: Wiles on April 07, 2014, 12:56:44 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 07, 2014, 02:04:23 pm
Not the slightest clue on how to play them.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 07, 2014, 02:11:49 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 07, 2014, 02:21:04 pm
Although I really don't like their troops, can build anything effective.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 07, 2014, 02:29:05 pm
Post by: moghopper on April 07, 2014, 02:54:38 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 07, 2014, 02:59:55 pm
Wouldn't be a problem but their mages have a taste for the finer things in life :P They also get troops for free, but those troops require upkeep, suck in battle and usually starve further into uselessness due to their numbers. Oh and they need mages to lead them, so you can't sitesearch or research as much as someone else would on top of everything else. But it's ok, due to your popkilling and insanity causing dominion, other people will be happy to gank you out of the game early on. A splendid nation, all told.
To be fair, their mages are pretty damn awesome. They can also recruit (expensive) mindblasters, which is always a devastating thing to wield on the battlefield. MA R'lyeh is mostly the same as LA R'lyeh without the toxic dominion and freespawn. If you like the theme and lore of R'lyeh, I'd suggest you try the MA variant instead. It's tricky too but at least you're not getting killed by your own dominon. Powerful nation if used correctly but not as straightforward as MA "blacksteel pikes" Ulm for instance.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 07, 2014, 04:05:04 pm
I guess the Ashen Empire falls into the same category.
Post by: E. Albright on April 07, 2014, 04:06:55 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 07, 2014, 04:13:08 pm
I'd rather stick to evocation, construction and the various other schools for buffs.
Summoning strategies require you to know what you are doing.
Post by: moghopper on April 07, 2014, 04:33:55 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137684.msg5161574#msg5161574
Post by: E. Albright on April 07, 2014, 05:10:34 pm
Well they are still magic centric and the whole conjuration tree is way to overwhelming.
I'd rather stick to evocation, construction and the various other schools for buffs.
MA R'lyeh isn't conjuration-centric, though. If anything, they're thaumaturgy-and-evocation-centric. Still, your point is valid. They're quite strong, but they take some finesse to use.
Post by: Frumple on April 07, 2014, 05:32:32 pm
Basically, I'd probably say don't worry too much about finesse with R'yleh, at least to start. They've got some incredibly huge bludgeons you could be waving about instead, and get pretty far with it. and then they don't expect the wishdagger to the spine, nyohoho.
*A particularly big deal in underwater fights. You're basically the only thing bringing the ranged game to the fight down there, to any meaningful degree, until at least mid game.
Post by: Neonivek on April 07, 2014, 05:37:42 pm
Quote
they've got hella' punch. R'lyeh's pretty sexy, as water nations go, imo
Given I NEVER heard anything good about water nations except R'lyeh... That isn't saying much.
It pretty much boils down to "They sure would suck if they were a land race" if the info people feed me is correct. (speaking of water nations in general)
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 07, 2014, 06:06:00 pm
I mean sure, they're expensive and despite their hunky HP they die like flies. Most big mages are either cap only or non-sacred which doesn't help the gold issue. Sacred troops are amusingly high enc and people's favourite armour is "the way god made me".
But even with all that the paths on basalt kings/mages of the deep look good enough that I'd be willing to give Atlantis a whirl some time.
Post by: E. Albright on April 07, 2014, 06:29:03 pm
Basically, I'd probably say don't worry too much about finesse with R'yleh, at least to start. They've got some incredibly huge bludgeons you could be waving about instead, and get pretty far with it. and then they don't expect the wishdagger to the spine, nyohoho.
*A particularly big deal in underwater fights. You're basically the only thing bringing the ranged game to the fight down there, to any meaningful degree, until at least mid game.
The bludgeons have answers, though. Not pretty ones, and they require finesse to wield, but if you're not ready to adapt with them, you'll hurt, especially when beaching. In a straight-up bludgeon-fight, though, I agree.
Also, underwater EA/MA Argatha brings the same ranged weapons to the underwater fight as you do, albeit in smaller numbers and a slightly less accessible package for MA (or EA on a cave-deficient map).
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 07, 2014, 08:44:51 pm
I don't know, (EA/MA) Atlantis doesn't seem that bad.
I mean sure, they're expensive and despite their hunky HP they die like flies. Most big mages are either cap only or non-sacred which doesn't help the gold issue. Sacred troops are amusingly high enc and people's favourite armour is "the way god made me".
But even with all that the paths on basalt kings/mages of the deep look good enough that I'd be willing to give Atlantis a whirl some time.
Yeah, Atlantis and MA/LA R'yleh are the only water nations that I haven't heard people badmouth. Which... doesn't mean a lot, but it's definitely worth something. Any other water nation is probably going to be utter crap though. Atlantis and MA/LA R'yleh are just not as crappy.
Also, the Basalt Kings of EA Atlantis seem pretty damn thuggable to me. The only problem is their defense skill, but they have surprisingly good natural protection and HP for mages. Slap on some armour and regen and they should last long enough for fear to take effect. Seriously, they've got 16 base protection and 51 HP. That's pretty insane.
EDIT: Secondary question, do any items provide temporary water gems?
Post by: E. Albright on April 07, 2014, 08:56:12 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 07, 2014, 09:00:28 pm
Water Lens (Cons4): 5W to craft, 1W per combat, +1 range W rituals
Excellent... That's going to come in useful when playing as Ur, especially when I hit Construction 6 and can craft water bracelets.
Post by: Culise on April 07, 2014, 09:29:40 pm
Basalt Kings have Earth 3, so they don't even need armor for protection. First turn Ironskin, instant bamf. The only downside is that they're not really spammable; slow-to-recruit plus capital-only hurts a lot.I don't know, (EA/MA) Atlantis doesn't seem that bad.
I mean sure, they're expensive and despite their hunky HP they die like flies. Most big mages are either cap only or non-sacred which doesn't help the gold issue. Sacred troops are amusingly high enc and people's favourite armour is "the way god made me".
But even with all that the paths on basalt kings/mages of the deep look good enough that I'd be willing to give Atlantis a whirl some time.
Yeah, Atlantis and MA/LA R'yleh are the only water nations that I haven't heard people badmouth. Which... doesn't mean a lot, but it's definitely worth something. Any other water nation is probably going to be utter crap though. Atlantis and MA/LA R'yleh are just not as crappy.
Also, the Basalt Kings of EA Atlantis seem pretty damn thuggable to me. The only problem is their defense skill, but they have surprisingly good natural protection and HP for mages. Slap on some armour and regen and they should last long enough for fear to take effect. Seriously, they've got 16 base protection and 51 HP. That's pretty insane.
EDIT: Secondary question, do any items provide temporary water gems?
EDIT: Actually, those are some nasty-strong paths. Earth gives access to Resist Lightning or Temper Flesh (anti-Fire), and Fire gives both full Protection from Fire and Resist Cold for elemental coverage; Summon Earthpower gives free Reinvigoration plus an additional 1E; Iron Will gives Magic Resistance boosts to shield against "save-or-die" spells; Fire Shield gives free damage to anything foolish enough to close in; Water gives Quicken(!) and Rain; and Fire and Earth have all sorts of Evocation fun even if you don't want to just wade in and kick the enemy army across the battlefield.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 08, 2014, 01:01:34 pm
I'd like to have a build that heavily relies on their national summons.
How would you design them?
Maybe 4E9N (open for suggestions), but I've got no clue about their scales.
Post by: Culise on April 08, 2014, 02:19:32 pm
When considering the pretender, it's useful to know that Marignon is extremely resource-heavy. Their main-line forces are around 20-23 RES each, and their cavalry arm exceeds 50. Actually, generally speaking, Marignon has some rather difficult and contradictory needs - it needs high Dominion for its sacreds, high scales for its main-line forces, and high paths for any blesses, which combine to make Dormant almost mandatory at a minimum. Its main-line forces are decent but not exceptional, and its cavalry arm is too expensive to mass in the early game. Its sacred flagellants are both cheap and eminently spammable, but have all the durability of wet tissue paper, and are worthless unless you have a great bless, at which point they hit mediocre. For scales, Production 2-3 is almost mandatory to deal with the resource costs. Growth helps counteract the weakness of old mages, but Order gives more gold for your early expansion and is thematically appropriate for the zeal of the people everyone never expects.
For paths, you can reduce the gambles on Grand Masters by putting Air, Astral, and Earth on your pretender. A2E2S2 is the bare minimum in this respect, but higher is obviously better, not the least because 4 unlocks those blesses for your angels. A3 gives you Arrow Fend, and A4 gives you the Precision bless and Mass Flight. S4 gives you an MR bless, not to mention Mind Hunt and Gateway. E4S3 gives you the Sword of Many Colors (+1 FAWE) and E4 gives you a Rejuvenation bless (critical, since fatigue's always a killer). Alternatives are Earth/Astral (useful bless, guaranteed Crystal Coins) or Nature/Earth (minimum N4 for Gift of Reason to convert angel soldiers into additional commanders for further thuggery, preferably N9 for Regeneration and E9 for Rejuvenation). For a chassis, the Great Enchantress is an option for additional Astral gem income, but she's more expensive because she needs to be built up rather than starting with high Dominion and/or paths. Statue of Order is a cheap but immobile option for E9S9 builds, while the Titan of War and Wisdom is an option for AES builds and the Statue of Fertility gives the perfect baseline for N9E9. Earth pretenders also have one more bonus - you're going to be spending gems like water on these boosters, so hitting E3 for that Dwarven Hammer will save you quite a bit.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 08, 2014, 03:21:54 pm
4A4E
8 Dom, 3 Order, 3 Production 3, 3 Growth
How about it?
I've been told that gambling Grand Masters, empowering and bossting them would be the way to go, since I won't be summoning that many high tier angles anyway, due to their high astral gem cost.
I wish I could get a better bless, but it's all so damn expensive.
Guess I'll have to compensate with equipment.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 08, 2014, 03:25:35 pm
If your idea is to use the sacred national summons (at best a mid-game goal, so make sure to have a plan to survive early game), I'd cater the bless primarily for those units instead of flags/knights. Ideally you have a bless that works nicely for all, but don't starve your pretender points trying to optimize a bless for several very different units. Same goes for your dominion. You can't spam knights due to high r cost, so don't even bother getting a super high dom for them. Flagellants can be spammed from all temple provinces so they don't need (but can utilize, being dirt cheap) high dom either. And your angel summons of course use pearls and couldn't care less about your dominion. So I figure that MA Marignon doesn't really need a high dominion. You could go high if you want to build around flagellants, but you've already said that you're aiming for the angels. There are of course the usual benefits for having a high dom that aren't nation dependant nothing that has to do with your sacreds.
I've never suffered from old age afflictions, but conventional wisdom is to get high growth if you have old mages.
Seems you want an awful lot of things: dominion, (multi?)bless, good scales... You may wish to consider an imprisoned pretender though that has some risks. Awake/dormant combat guy is a good asset to have in an early war.
And don't ever expect to get to the point where you can cast conjuration-9, 144 pearl summon. No matter how cool it is. That's just way too expensive and late to rely on getting. Cool if you get it, but nothing reliable. The lesser summons are actually reachable.
So two obvious(?) save targets: only dom-7 and prod-2.
Also consider misfortune-1 for more points to pump into a bless if you want.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 08, 2014, 03:55:35 pm
Guess I couldn't think of anything good to spend them on.
If I was more familar with spells and crafting I guess I could put it in some path and get good spells and items out of it.
If I can I'd like to play Marignon in a disciple game that will be coming up in a few weeks, wouldn't a high income/production nation with decent troops be nice to hold the line, while some 2-3 nations go for something more sophisticated? And then they chime in at midgame, where I can add my evocations and late add some angel support/thugs.
I mean I'm not sure if you can work together in such a way, but that would be a nice thought.
I guess I could drop growth, since it's a bit of an income overkill and it's a bit of a convenience feature, since it keeps afflictions at bay, but it's not that gamebreaking.
However I do feel like I do require high production to recuit decent sized armies.
Mistfortune with high order is a good idea and maybe i could even go down to dom-6, considering how good my priests are, but if I'd take a new magic path with the leftover points I'd need some sort of idea.
Edit:
I could either turn one of those minor blesses into a major bless, or get another minor bless.
Post by: Culise on April 08, 2014, 04:11:21 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 08, 2014, 04:34:12 pm
Which would render half of my army useless I guess.
Air major bless would be nice for the extra accuracy and I would want to play them evocations heavy, but it's too much of an investment just to get an air shield. And I think Marignon isn't in danger of being dominated by ranged units, since they have great ranged units themselves.
Astral 2 may be worth it, since apparently Astral is very good lategame and would let your commanders dish out soe high level spells (though the same could be achieved by communions I guess). Don't have enough experience with magic schools to know if it's worth it.
Death 2 would let me craft Horror Helmets which work nice with Awe on your angel commanders if I decide to thug with them a bit.
Nature 2 would give my thugs some much needed rings of regeneration.
Earth major bless would be pretty good on my knights and my angels, as well as for every caster to last longer.
Drat! Can't decide.
Edit:
I could got for a 4E4A2S2D2N Enchantress, but that's probably not worth missing out on a major bless. Although hey, astral gems are nice.
Post by: Frumple on April 08, 2014, 04:42:31 pm
Since you don't have any ranged sacreds short of the Conj-9 SeraphAnd the conj 6 harbingers! Who come with a3 and an AoE ranged attack to boot. Kinda' iffy attack though... may be AoE and armor piercing, but it's only a base 5 damage vs anything not undead or demonic. Still...
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 08, 2014, 04:43:36 pm
But then we hit bless optimization issue again. Are you getting a bless for your mages, low res cannon fodder flags, high res durable knights, angel summon troops or angel thug chassis mages? You need to figure out which of those you want to bless, and then get the best possible bless for that. Getting a halfassed bless "a little for everyone" will, I think, end up being the suboptimal choice here.
If you're going for a huge bless, there's a reason N9E9 is a staple for most everything. N9Ex is a good compromise, but it cuts down survivability (but again your angels have pretty good invulnerability so that's possibly not an issue). It's pretty much the go-to thug bless if you're eyeing for those angel commanders.
fakeedit:
To help you decide on the magics, ask yourself this: what (if anything) you want to bless.
Flags will probably want something offensive, since any defensive buff will only make them ok-ish. Something offensive will instead capitalize on their numerous attacks (so F or W probably).
Knights can take pretty much anything, fairly good attack and defence so everything's open.
Angel thugs probably want the usual thuggy things, which is N9 and/or Ex up to E9.
Mages want the usual E for invigoration and A for precision (only if they shoot stuff, which Mari mages definitely do).
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 08, 2014, 04:49:19 pm
Flags will probably want something offensive, since any defensive buff will only make them ok-ish. Something offensive will instead capitalize on their numerous attacks (so F or W probably).
Blood Vengeance is also pretty damn fun on flagellants, but you're going to lose a lot of them if you go that route. Still it is pretty damn fun seeing the enemy army get hammered no matter what they do. Definitely not something you'd use competitively though.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 08, 2014, 04:57:37 pm
What people often seem to overlook is the minor blood bless part of B9m which is +4 strength, which is essentially +4dmg per attack. It won't help you hit anything, but when you do hit it's a nice extra punch to have.
Another thing people tend to overlook until they get bit by it is that the B9 works against everyone. Including yourself. If you have a bunch of flagellants and your inquisitors rain down fireballs on and over them, you might soon find yourself mageless. Exercise caution when using B9 with archer or evocation spam.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 08, 2014, 04:58:09 pm
I've never played MA Marignon to lategame, so I don't know if you'll have enough angels to build a thug strategy around them, although I heard you can summon good amounts of the cheaper ones.
Your sacred knights would benefit from a major nature bless as much, havin only low HP and less regeneration because of that.
I see if I can get a 4A4EN9 pretender.
Edit:
Would work with a Statue of Fertility, with decent dom and decent scales.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 08, 2014, 05:04:20 pm
N9B9 is a seemingly popular combo, though I've seen it used mostly for beefier units (astral and blood sacreds of monkey people, jaguar warriors). The difference between those and flagellants is that flagellants die and take a few enemies with them. Beefy N9B9 sacreds stay up while taking their enemies down. Still, I've never fought with or against N9B9 flagellants. It probably won't work but hey, it might.
The other difference is that flagellants are also recruit anywhere with a temple, so it's much easier to spam them. Essentially they're walking bombs with Blood Vengeance, disposable yet surprisingly strong. The only problem is getting enough gold to gather up large armies and worrying about large evocations. Like I said, not a very competitive build.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 08, 2014, 05:15:31 pm
Well the problem is, you are going to use mages no matter what you do, so 4A4E is a pretty good investment.
I've never played MA Marignon to lategame, so I don't know if you'll have enough angels to build a thug strategy around them, although I heard you can summon good amounts of the cheaper ones.
Your sacred knights would benefit from a major nature bless as much, havin only low HP and less regeneration because of that.
I see if I can get a 4A4EN9 pretender.
That's the thing. A4E4 works. So does N9. A4E4N9 also works for all those units. But can you afford all that? Maybe you can, or maybe you'll end up gutting your scales too much and struggle with less gold/bad events/bad research for the rest of the game.
I'm not saying you can't do a bless like that, but it will be expensive and that price may be too high to pay for its benefits. A good thing in pretender design in general is to focus. What do you want and how can you achieve that. Try too much and you succeed at nothing. That said, 1xMajor2xMinor bless is certainly doable without ruining a nation too much.
@USEC_OFFICER
Remember that those temples still cost 400g and can be wrecked by a cheap raiding party (nation depending). But yeah, I guess flagellants are THE most spammable sacred, since most others at least require either a fort or some gems. Doesn't make them any less crappy :P
I don't think B9 flagellants have much synergy with their nation, since Mari seems to revolve around fire flinging mages and massive crossbow armies. Could be fun to fight it some time though.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 08, 2014, 05:35:03 pm
When I wanted to play them more scales heavy, somebody in a different place told me I would be ruining my lategame.
Guess there's no use arguing over it. I'll just have to start up a game and see if it works.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 08, 2014, 05:36:45 pm
@USEC_OFFICER
Remember that those temples still cost 400g and can be wrecked by a cheap raiding party (nation depending). But yeah, I guess flagellants are THE most spammable sacred, since most others at least require either a fort or some gems. Doesn't make them any less crappy :P
I don't think B9 flagellants have much synergy with their nation, since Mari seems to revolve around fire flinging mages and massive crossbow armies. Could be fun to fight it some time though.
Like I said, not a competitive build. But Doms is still a videogame, and some of us love to mash giant armies of pixelmens together, just for shits and giggles.
Guess there's no use arguing over it. I'll just have to start up a game and see if it works.
Pretty much. That's how Doms works. Honestly I think that your pretender definitely needs some Astral for summoning and site searching, but that's just me.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 08, 2014, 05:38:07 pm
I'm not claiming some divine authority, but for the sake of conversation I'm offering my two cents. What you (the general thread reading You) do with it is up to you.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 08, 2014, 05:40:34 pm
You know that saying about opinions and buttholes :P
...
Oooooh. I get it now. Clever...
Post by: Culise on April 08, 2014, 06:27:25 pm
Pretty much. That's how Doms works. Honestly I think that your pretender definitely needs some Astral for summoning and site searching, but that's just me.To be fair, I think that's actually one of the things Marignon is actually safe on. When it comes to site-searching, 1 point in a path is enough to find most sites; 2 for safety; 3 for the most powerful. Anything beyond that is usually overkill. A single Grand Master at F3S3 should be enough to cover anything they need as far as Fire or Astral is concerned.
You know that saying about opinions and buttholes :PStories told about them tend to end with awkward lies told to ER staff?
Post by: E. Albright on April 08, 2014, 09:46:02 pm
Oh, and the Celestial Carp is an awfully handsome pretender...
Edit:
Spring: A2N1->135g
Summer: F2N1->135g
Autumn: E2D1->140g
Winter: W2D1->135g
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 08, 2014, 10:05:32 pm
Post by: tompliss on April 09, 2014, 01:41:17 am
[EDIT] found the patch note copied from Desura (apparently) : http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/dominions-update-on-its-way/page/3#966558
3 new pretenders : Maharishi, Raksharani and the Celestial Carp (http://i.imgur.com/2IkBOiT.jpg)
From their names, they may be only available to asian/indian nations... :/
Post by: Boksi on April 09, 2014, 03:15:33 am
Post by: Neonivek on April 09, 2014, 03:18:35 am
If he hated you he will just freeken feed you to his pet fish.
Post by: snelg on April 09, 2014, 06:14:31 am
Excited about the update though the Caelum parts might have been pushed back a bit.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 09, 2014, 07:24:28 am
3 new pretenders : Maharishi, Raksharani and the Celestial Carp (http://i.imgur.com/2IkBOiT.jpg)
From their names, they may be only available to asian/indian nations... :/
Underwater and Asian nations aren't exactly filled to brim with pretender choices so I think we can forgive that.
Well there goes the idea that Pantocreator was neutral or benevolent.
If he hated you he will just freeken feed you to his pet fish.
The tartarian description and some pretender descriptions in particular threw that idea to a maneating carp way before this patch.
Post by: E. Albright on April 09, 2014, 05:25:24 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 09, 2014, 05:31:01 pm
Underwater nations don't get the carp, though, so you may need to retract some of that forgiveness. ;D
IIIRRROOONNNYYY.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 09, 2014, 05:43:08 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 09, 2014, 05:47:36 pm
'Tis a good patch.
Post by: E. Albright on April 09, 2014, 10:06:20 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 10, 2014, 03:21:29 pm
Post by: snelg on April 11, 2014, 08:47:05 am
I may have seen some story events, but I don't think so. The only dramatic new events I've seen were the ones from claiming the Throne of Bones, and while that was dramatic and disruptive, I thought I saw a list from RandomEvents on the forums that that wasn't on.It was probably this post. It lists the story events so spoiler alert I guess (though it doesn't tell what they do).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Karlito on April 11, 2014, 08:53:24 am
The tartarian description and some pretender descriptions in particular threw that idea to a maneating carp way before this patch.
If there's an overriding theme of Dominions, it's that the Pantokrator is always a huge dick.
Post by: tompliss on April 11, 2014, 08:57:37 am
the Pantokrator is always a huge dick.who likes to throw everybody in jails (that magically open when he's gone).
Post by: snelg on April 11, 2014, 11:11:18 am
If there's an overriding theme of Dominions, it's that the Pantokrator is always a huge dick.If there's an overriding theme of Dominions, it's that the Everyone is always a huge dick.
Post by: MoLAoS on April 16, 2014, 12:56:52 am
Created a multi wish buffed GoRed seraph with incredible kit giving H5, should be 6 as prophet is dead but can't make new prophet, awe+17 and fear+5. 132 health and 29 prot. Slaughtering enemy taking now damage because of awe. W1 mage casts frozen heart. I die and lose all that unique artifact gear. WTF. How the bloody hell does a W1 mage have an insta kill spell like that?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 16, 2014, 05:26:46 am
How's his astral level and magic resistance? If they're still at base 4 and 18 (I'm assuming you're using MA Pythium/MA LA Marignon's Seraph summon), he could easily be killed by a few S2 or a ton of S1 guys instead with soul slay and magic duel.
How high is his encumbrance and reinvigoration? If enc minus reinvig is higher than 0, he can probably be tired to death by undead spam from D2 casters.
B1 mages could spam Leech for 25 dmg per casting on your Seraph (for reference, Frozen Heart is 10 dmg)
I can't think of other schools having such spells (I may very well be wrong). But F1 mages could at least blind your Seraph, making him a much worse combatant.
I'm guessing he's wearing Armor of Virtue? That would cause him to teleport back to your capital if he gets wounded. There are probably other ways but that's the one I remember for now.
The key here is that there's a counter to pretty much anything. The good/bad thing is that the AI can't utilize most of them.
Post by: Frumple on April 16, 2014, 05:56:55 am
How the bloody hell does a W1 mage have an insta kill spell like that?Is called alteration 6 :P
More than one of the schools open up some fairly nasty low-path stuff as you get deeper into them. Frozen heart's not even an instakill spell, just high precision AN cold damage (which yeah, if your seraph was wearing armor of virtue, is probably what caused it to twig out). There are multiple actual instakill spells, some of them -- like the mentioned magic duel, or stuff like disintegrate -- coming in as low as one or two levels in a path.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 16, 2014, 06:03:47 am
Post by: MoLAoS on April 16, 2014, 12:18:50 pm
That's why you want cold resist if you're fighting W mages. Since I don't know the exact gear I can only guess, but here's a few low level ways to kill him:
How's his astral level and magic resistance? If they're still at base 4 and 18 (I'm assuming you're using MA Pythium/MA LA Marignon's Seraph summon), he could easily be killed by a few S2 or a ton of S1 guys instead with soul slay and magic duel.
How high is his encumbrance and reinvigoration? If enc minus reinvig is higher than 0, he can probably be tired to death by undead spam from D2 casters.
B1 mages could spam Leech for 25 dmg per casting on your Seraph (for reference, Frozen Heart is 10 dmg)
I can't think of other schools having such spells (I may very well be wrong). But F1 mages could at least blind your Seraph, making him a much worse combatant.
I'm guessing he's wearing Armor of Virtue? That would cause him to teleport back to your capital if he gets wounded. There are probably other ways but that's the one I remember for now.
The key here is that there's a counter to pretty much anything. The good/bad thing is that the AI can't utilize most of them.
I can't remember precisely what he had now. I lost by losing all my land anyways. But yeah armor of virtue. He definitely had plenty of reinvig and a decent magic resist. All slots were full, plus 1 from my bless. He was also wish boosted but don't know if that added mr. This was one of my games where I abuse Wish a huge amount. Sadly I didn't set up a lot of defense because its so boring so when I suicided my prophet the enemy took all my land super quick.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 16, 2014, 03:18:50 pm
Oh the mindgames.
Post by: Frumple on April 16, 2014, 05:22:38 pm
Post by: MoLAoS on April 16, 2014, 07:23:42 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 16, 2014, 07:31:21 pm
Really, you don't need artifacts to make an unholy terror of an SC. Artifacts provide for some interesting opportunities, but there's plenty of bloody incredible stuff a lower const, and building an army (or SC) destroyer doesn't even remotely require them. Personally, I'd usually prefer an artifact's gem cost in lesser-but-functionally-as-good kit when it comes to SC or thug building. Artifacts are for fancier stuff than facerolling armies.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 16, 2014, 08:18:07 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 16, 2014, 08:22:23 pm
Is there a military use for The Ark?
I can see it being useful for a nation like Mictlan which has spammable sacreds, or for a thug/SC to lug around. Blinding a large chunk of the enemy army seems pretty awesome to me. But then again I haven't used it before, so take my words with a grain of salt.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 16, 2014, 08:46:24 pm
Post by: MoLAoS on April 16, 2014, 10:05:42 pm
... shield of gleaming gold and hat of terror is all they really need to route 90% of all non-thugs/SCs. Throw in some decent armor (maybe just ethereal) and an AoE damage sword (frost/fire brand) or something and they'll wreck pretty much everything not specifically tooled to kill SCs. Unless seraphs are flimsier than I remember (which sure, maybe. Go summon something tougher next time.), I guess.
Really, you don't need artifacts to make an unholy terror of an SC. Artifacts provide for some interesting opportunities, but there's plenty of bloody incredible stuff a lower const, and building an army (or SC) destroyer doesn't even remotely require them. Personally, I'd usually prefer an artifact's gem cost in lesser-but-functionally-as-good kit when it comes to SC or thug building. Artifacts are for fancier stuff than facerolling armies.
Considering that a fame'd dual magic powered, wished/GoRed, physical powered Seraph costs 500 astral and w/e nature for GoR, the cost of equipment is not that big. Honestly the main annoying thing is getting famed and then having some shitty ability like Valor. My favorite is the fatty ability for all that extra HP and some strength.
Post by: Frumple on April 16, 2014, 10:22:48 pm
E: Mind you, obesity still works pretty well if you have a way of offsetting that extra encumbrance. Soul vortex is excellent for that, if your critter has D3 and you've got the research.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 17, 2014, 06:56:07 am
Is there a military use for The Ark?
Seems like a useful thing for nations with priest-mages and some sacreds. Alternatively it might be a nasty thing to give your flying SC. This is just conjecture but I doubt spammable sacreds are really a requirement. You could just have a secondary army that's full of mostly sacreds and give The Ark to them. Cap-only recruitment could be enough for that sort of thing. Really the important bit here I think is the access to mage-priests. Mages are a big force-multiplier and you don't want to get them diseased and blinded.
Now I wonder if pretenders and shroud wearers are immune to the ark since neither is sacred as such I think.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 17, 2014, 07:07:26 am
Mind you, obesity still works pretty well
Huh? What? OBJECTION!
Post by: Frumple on April 17, 2014, 09:26:04 am
It's a fairly huge chunk of HP* in exchange for 3 encumbrance, now that I've noticed the enc isn't scaling. That's actually pretty decent if you've got the means to offset the extra fatigue. It's no quickness or +MR, but it's still one of the better heroic abilities.
*E: Yes, there's a strength boost, too. Strength is almost entirely useless on a SC. Doesn't help them do much of anything they tend to be built for. And most SC chassis have plenty, anyway...
Post by: E. Albright on April 17, 2014, 10:45:23 am
Spoiler: Round 401: Etimmu (click to show/hide)
(That... thing is much worse now, of course, since it's been over 30 turns since that screenshot, but it's a prophet, and has been operating in hostile dominion for quite a while now, so I don't have any more recent shots that really underscore the "ick" factor as well...)
Post by: MoLAoS on April 17, 2014, 02:13:18 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 17, 2014, 02:28:17 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 18, 2014, 05:28:29 pm
Pretender Design (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/primer-pretender-design#967915)
I thought some here might find it useful.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 19, 2014, 12:59:58 am
Anybody knows if a list of events exist and their requirements to happen?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 19, 2014, 01:43:01 am
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vu97o3t2mb3d2c2/Dom4events.html
And here's the thread I found the link in the first place:
http://www.moddb.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/event-list
I don't know how accurate it is or where it's originally from, but I glanced through it a few days ago and it seemed pretty legit.
Post by: E. Albright on April 19, 2014, 02:20:29 am
Post by: E. Albright on April 21, 2014, 04:51:34 am
Quote from: Dom4 Change Log
2014-04-20 18:52:54 +0200
Turan units (part placeholder graphics)
Airyan units
Many Ragha Descriptions
Edit: for context (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/new-patch#967689) Apr 16 2014, 1:23pm:
Quote from: KO
EA Caelum is almost finished.
MA Likewise.
LA needs some more fixing.
A couple of pretenders are made.
Three more pretenders are on the todo-list.
National summons are on the todo-list.
1-3 new nations depending on how much I want to wait with a release. I suspect it is better if I wait until they are finished. Otherwise they are likely not to appear in the near future. If they are included in the patch I have to work to finish them before the patch takes too long.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 21, 2014, 08:25:49 am
Mind you I have no idea how they're fixing the Caelums. LA Caelum in particular is absolutely terrible (have you seen their Harab Serpahs?), while the other two are better. Hopefully we'll see something like they did for LA Agathra and add in a mage that's actually pretty useful.
Post by: lijacote on April 21, 2014, 08:55:40 am
Spoiler: Some of what Caelum's getting (subject to change) (click to show/hide)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 21, 2014, 09:34:56 am
Post by: lijacote on April 21, 2014, 09:37:37 am
Post by: Culise on April 21, 2014, 09:40:11 am
They're currently not marked as cap-only, so that's great. The game didn't really have that many sacred archers.I'm definitely loving the possibilities, with the potential for an F9AX bless. Yes, you too can now have your own free Flaming Arrows spell with boosted precision from Turn 1. ^_^
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 21, 2014, 09:43:48 am
I'm definitely loving the possibilities, with the potential for an F9AX bless. Yes, you too can now have your own free Flaming Arrows spell with boosted precision from Turn 1. ^_^
I was thinking about the exact same thing, actually. Or a F9SX bless with that Ahura of Oath, to gain access to Caelum's late-game summons. Mind you, Fire Weapons only works with LA Caelum, since the other archers have Frost Bows which can't be blessed with flaming weapons. A bit of a shame, honestly. Still, LA Caelum needs all of the help it can get, so flaming arrow spam would be great for them. EA/MA Caelum has thunderbolt spam after all.
Post by: Shadowgandor on April 21, 2014, 11:09:26 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 21, 2014, 11:29:07 am
Wouldn't D9Ax work a lot better? Or is it impossible to imbue frost bows with death too?
Yeah, a Death Bless would work with the bows too. And that bless also syncs well with their sacred heavy infantry, since they get undying 10 (or something like that) which helps them stay on the battlefield for longer. Plus flaming arrows doesn't stack with flaming weapons, and Caelum eventually gets a 4F caster.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 22, 2014, 07:08:05 am
Currently hoping I get to dispel it before all my good mages die.
Post by: lijacote on April 22, 2014, 08:53:50 am
Post by: Culise on April 22, 2014, 10:23:43 am
Most annoying Ritual spells:
1. Utterdark - if you're willing to cast this, you're one of the few nations unaffected by global darkness or a 90% income drop (probably undead). Unfortunately, everyone else is going to be most unhappy with your devastation of their armies and tax base, which is going to make you public enemy number one.
2. Burden of Time - Kills the elderly, which means a dangerous amount of mages for many nations. Undead don't care, and the very young aren't quite as affected. Also gradually kills your population, which means that if you have a gold-based economy (read: aren't Ermor or Lemuria), you're going to have issues if this stays up for too long.
3. Astral Corruption - Horror show, but definitely not horrorshow. If an opponent has this up, kiss your non-blood mages goodbye if you cast or forge anything, which is a bad thing in the magic-heavy late-game. And if you try and fail to dispel it? Horror-marked. Eugh...
4. Strands of Arcane Power - As if creeping dominion wasn't bad enough, now it spontaneously mind-hunts your mages. The only bright side is that if the mage that cast this ritual gets feeble-minded due to lash-back from a failed mind hunt, the ritual ends. The down side is that any mage that casts this is S7 at a minimum, and will not be easy to defeat in a Mind Hunt duel.
5. Wrath of God/Vengeful Water - See Arcane Power, only with less "targeted destruction" and more "death from above/below." Annoying, but unlike Strands, a bit less dangerous.
6. Illwinter/Second Sun - bad enough for most nations, but if you're actually a nation of the opposite temperature from whichever one was just cast, these rituals mean trouble. Expensive (especially Illwinter, at no less than 120 Blood Slaves!), slow, and ineffective, but supremely annoying.
Other things to watch out for are gem generators - these aren't dangerous in themselves, but they're powerful gateway spells if they're placed in the hands of a powerful nation. I'd probably rank them from most to least dangerous as:
1. Arcane Nexus - "What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine." Any spells you cast turn into gems for this one's owner.
2. Stellar Focus/Well of Misery/Blood Vortex - "I win" buttons abound in these Astral, Death, and Blood, as long as they have the spells/forges for it. Very dangerous, high potential for a runaway game. Well of Misery is especially dangerous because it's *beneficial* to other nations, too - they might actually ignore it for a while if it's stripping away disease and ailments from them.
3. Earth Blood Deep Well - Beautiful forges in Earth especially paired with others. Potential to summon Kings of Elemental Earth.
4. Eternal Pyre - Some decent forges for Fire, and expect greater potential for evocation spam and siege magics. Potential to summon Kings of Elemental Fire.
5. Gale Gate - Queens of Elemental Air can jump across maps with high MOV and Flying, giving strategic flexibility if you're (somehow) an Air nation that doesn't have Flying. Decent evocation spam potential here, as in fire. Randomly spits out storms in enemy provinces, which is unfortunate since it makes you a bigger target.
6. Mother Oak - A couple good forges (Rejuvenation/Regeneration are both in this path), but that's about it.
7. Maelstrom - Water has mediocre forges (except for things like Frostbrand), but two of the three Queens of Elemental Water are only useful in the water. On the other hand in the water, they are most dangerous in their element...
Post by: E. Albright on April 22, 2014, 10:38:13 am
3. Astral Corruption - Horror show, but definitely not horrorshow. If an opponent has this up, kiss your non-blood mages goodbye if you cast or forge anything, which is a bad thing in the magic-heavy late-game. And if you try and fail to dispel it? Horror-marked. Eugh..
You forgot to mention the fun bit where it intermittently increases the results of "send horror" type spells, so you can semi-regularly get Doom Horrors flung across the map for a few lousy blood slaves...
Post by: lijacote on April 22, 2014, 11:26:20 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 22, 2014, 02:16:32 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 22, 2014, 03:59:31 pm
Scratch that.
That whole bless was way to endgame centric.
I need some better scales and need to think if I need a major bless at all.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 22, 2014, 06:47:56 pm
In general, if your income and upkeep are nearing 1:1, you have way too many troops/mages and/or not enough provinces. So try to keep an eye on your recruitment and make sure you're always fighting and gaining ground.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 22, 2014, 06:51:42 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 22, 2014, 07:09:03 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 22, 2014, 07:21:09 pm
I don't build temples for flaggellants only, but may recruit them at places which have special units with a lab/fort combination.
I'll try another approach with a 4A4S4E Titan of War and Wisdom.
I could get 0 leftover points with 5 Dom, 3 Order, 3 Production and 3 Growth, but that might be a bit of gold overkill and a bit of a dominion risk, which is a bit mitigated by my inqusitors special ability. I want to keep the high production to try relying more on my knight units since massing them proved very effective.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 22, 2014, 07:21:47 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 22, 2014, 07:57:32 pm
... anyone know how much gold an F10 or E10+ (base X9+boosters) pretender squeezes out per gem?
Post by: E. Albright on April 23, 2014, 06:17:23 am
... anyone know how much gold an F10 or E10+ (base X9+boosters) pretender squeezes out per gem?
The breakdown is:
Alchemical Transmutation = (9 + E) x (gems - 1) gold per casting
Distill Fire = (14 + F) x (gems - 1) gold per casting
Earth Gem Alchemy = (11 + 2E) x (gems - 1) gold per casting
Transmute Fire = (16 + 2F) x (gems - 1) gold per casting
So for a normal E10/F10 caster, you're looking at 31g/36g per gem, ignoring the one-gem overhead to cast the spell. A Master Alchemist obviously is getting double that for 62g/72g. For an endgame scenario, a 10E/10F Master Alchemist with the Alchemist's Stone will get 77g/90g per additional gem put into the spell.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 23, 2014, 06:38:57 am
Other master alchemist nations: LA Ulm|Marignon|Agartha|Bogarus
Post by: lijacote on April 25, 2014, 03:18:35 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on April 26, 2014, 05:44:43 am
Well half the fun of those games is actually playing badly, so I might as well have some fun with Yomi.
Edit:
Worth building your Pretender to get your national summons?
Post by: Frumple on April 26, 2014, 10:04:04 am
EA Yomi, though? Definitely not. Most (Looks like all, really...) of their nationals can be summoned by their recruitable troops, and only one of them scale (and... you're probably not going to build a successful strategy around spamming konoha tengu). You'd be better off building your pretender to summon something that can summon your national summons, or to build boosters so your troops can have an easier time summoning them.
Post by: Karlito on April 26, 2014, 10:12:04 am
Post by: Mindmaker on April 26, 2014, 11:46:28 am
With a little luck some indie mage may be able to summon them and if I don't find any, then I can live with the loss.
They are tricky I agree, but I have faith in my ability to play them against equally unexperienced players.
One of Yomis strong points is that you don't need big standing armies like many other nations do, therefore saving yourself the upkeep up until the point where you'll need them.
Considering most of their troops are resource 1, you can recruit a whole army in a single turn at your basic fort.
I'll be playing the game SC heavy anyway.
I just hope somebody doesn't counter me too hard.
Post by: Frumple on April 26, 2014, 12:30:46 pm
Though, that said, I don't think WN would be a terrible bless for Yomi. Maybe not incredible, but not terrible. And then you'd have a pretender that can summon naiads to deal with summoning the part-nature nationals (barring the karasu tengu, anyway, but screw them. AN is kinda' rare.). Assuming you ever want to summon kappa (nope**) or nushi (maybe).
*And, uh. They're not exactly the most mindblowing of summons, those.
**3 water gems and a caster's turn for three kappa? Are you kidding me?
Post by: Mindmaker on April 26, 2014, 01:48:04 pm
Never did any mass summoning, but I guess It could be useful for Yomi to have troops that don't disintegrate from banishment.
Except for Kappa that is. Can't imagine summoning those even if I desperately need a water province and can't find indies.
Honestly, the longer I play Yomi the more ways to play them I do discover.
They aren't as simple as they appear. Given the right indie mages you can do interesting things with them and their national summons.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 26, 2014, 02:05:56 pm
I've seen Naiad Warriors in use. They're pretty good on the battlefield and are fairly gem/mage-turn efficient. That's not too common in the current vanilla :P
Not sure I'd build a pretender for those, but they're definitely a unit to keep an eye on if you ever happen to run into some WN.
Post by: Mindmaker on April 30, 2014, 03:35:59 pm
Thinking about a dormant Celestial general (once he awakes I can outfit him with items to take a water province) with 4A4E5S.
Not sure about scales though. Their great maintainance/research ratio monks seem to cry out for magic scales and I'd like to take 1-2 there.
Troops cost a high amount of resources (25 resources for your mid/late infantary unit and archers). I'd like to take 2-3 production there.
Not sure about gold. On the one hand all your troops are low gold, but on the other hand you want a lot of high upkeep mages, who have high variance so you might need to recruit a lot to get what you want.
Post by: moghopper on April 30, 2014, 08:05:37 pm
Advince for designing LA Jomon?
Thinking about a dormant Celestial general (once he awakes I can outfit him with items to take a water province) with 4A4E5S.
Not sure about scales though. Their great maintainance/research ratio monks seem to cry out for magic scales and I'd like to take 1-2 there.
Troops cost a high amount of resources (25 resources for your mid/late infantary unit and archers). I'd like to take 2-3 production there.
Not sure about gold. On the one hand all your troops are low gold, but on the other hand you want a lot of high upkeep mages, who have high variance so you might need to recruit a lot to get what you want.
Obviously you should take no magic paths, and -3 in all scales. A sure way to defeat me ;D
Post by: Shadowlord on May 01, 2014, 12:57:06 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 01, 2014, 07:18:27 am
Dormant Celestial General 4A4E. Ok bless for your Ryujin, but it's primarily so that you can forge staves of elemental mastery. You get mages with 210% FAWEN random, so wide but shallow path access. You NEED boosters. Also get S5 at least on your celestial general, S6 if you can afford it. S5 lets you forge rings of sorcery/wizardry. They go well with your shallow path depth.
You don't need high holy score, but it's nice to have decent dom to spread good scales. So 6-8, depending on what you can and want to afford.
Scale wise, I'd say prod-2 is a must, 3 is excessive. Monks really love the magic scale, you can probably make do without it but I'd squeeze in M1-2 regardless. Problem with that is that monks are not your go-to battle mages, so you don't want all of your mages to be them. Growth is unneeded since you don't have blood nor are your mages old. After that it's the usual rut of order and some misfortune for gold. You want some gold scales since your mages aren't exactly economical.
Important here is that your celestial general is there primarily to forge the staves and rings. So you don't want to risk him SC'ing unless it's absolutely necessary. That said, a well kitted celestial general should be able to take the weaker water provinces without issues. But that's something to be aware of. Lot of your lategame power is hanging on your pretender.
Post by: Mindmaker on May 01, 2014, 07:37:01 am
I don't think I'll ever like order, except for nations that need lots of money up front. Does a population limit exist?
Post by: E. Albright on May 01, 2014, 08:09:10 am
Post by: Mindmaker on May 04, 2014, 04:12:36 pm
Post by: lijacote on May 26, 2014, 02:09:22 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on May 29, 2014, 07:12:32 pm
Post by: MoLAoS on May 29, 2014, 10:44:08 pm
Advice on EA Abysia pretender design? I know about high Order and Production, but I'm unsure about chasis, paths and the other scales.
They nerfed scales hard. You can no longer go full heat with Abyssia and get a free 120 points. Kinda ruined shit in my opinion. It might even automatically set your heat scale to 2 heat. You want any scales for resources mainly. I like to run rainbows but you may want to run blessings. A high dominion can be good because you like heat but it really hurts other nations, so you could push your dom around maybe.
Post by: Karlito on May 30, 2014, 12:17:02 am
Post by: Mindmaker on May 30, 2014, 02:29:21 am
Supposedly they are also crazy good without a bless.
I've read about several sources that recommend a rainbow pretender, but I don't know if I should trust those. Most people seem to dislike rainbow pretenders.
Post by: Frumple on May 30, 2014, 02:52:44 am
As for a rainbow pretender, it wouldn't be the worst idea. EA Abysia has pretty terrible spell access. They've got good fire and sufficient blood, but their next highest after that is S2, with everything else (everything else being... earth.) being 1. Having someone that can summon up some casters for, say... air, water, nature, or death, wouldn't exactly be a bad thing and would offer a hella' lot more flexibility for the nation. Sure, you can do a lot with blood, but...
Post by: Mindmaker on May 30, 2014, 03:08:57 am
What about research? Supposedly it's one of their weak points.
Would you take an inspiring research pretender for that?
Post by: tompliss on May 30, 2014, 03:42:03 am
they're undead so they need (IIRC) undead leadersheep, but as you might want to craft a few Skull Staffs to let your mages produce them, you'll have a few fitting commanders.
The bad side of this is the need for Death gems, of course.
About raindowing or not... I think you might want something with a magic other than Fire magic, be it a rainbow or not. Blood magic might be good, as you can have blood2 easily, but blood3 mages are only 2.5% of some Old Age Cap-only...
And of course, it is EA Abysia : you have more armor than your enemies, relatively high damage, but nearly no ranged damage.
Armor protection goes well with bonus natural, and a little bonus to strength could let most of your units go for quick combat. So Earth, nature and water magic could all do some nice things to your armies.
On the other had, you have easily accessible F3 magic, so you have some nice basic ranged spells, but it might lack firepower against fire-resistant enemies, wide-spread ones, and a few other specifics ...
One last thing to remember is that all your national gem income is Fire. You may not want to depend that much on gems in magic other than fire.
Post by: Frumple on May 30, 2014, 04:07:09 am
Honestly, I'm kinda' wonder what's up with those guys. F/D is not something that's common, and EA Abysia seems to have no access to it whatsoever.
Post by: tompliss on May 30, 2014, 04:13:10 am
Have to have at least base proficiency in a path for a booster to, well, boost.Oh. :c
And looking at general summons, there isn't an easy way to get a Fire+Death mage...
Post by: Mindmaker on May 30, 2014, 04:34:24 am
Gives me some really good booster access and I can still empower her in fire and blood.
Post by: Shadowlord on May 30, 2014, 04:40:01 am
Spoiler: Screenshot (click to show/hide)
Also, at the end of the game I had 2N and I don't think I ever had any N income, but I had no N site-searchers and no mages with N at all. It's literally not possible unless you find a place to hire indie mages with N skill, or your pretender has it.
I didn't do very well, but I can point to some reasons why:
I invaded three people at once early on in an attempt to grab four thrones, one of which was deep in Ur, and I was just assuming I could punch my way through their territory because it LOOKED undefended, but my entire Ur-invading army got clobbered the second it stepped into their territory, and then a massive army came back out and took several of my provinces. Of course, I successfully took a ton of Mictlan's provinces and then their throne, but they really WERE basically undefended. I also failed in my attacks on both of the thrones to my south, held by Berytos, one of which had a hero at it, who my Demonborn failed utterly to kill, but Berytos didn't want to pursue a war, or I'd have ended up in a three-front war instead of a two-front war. I lost most of my armies at the time by doing this because I overestimated the effectiveness of my troops and underestimated my targets' troops.
I also ended up in permanent war with Ur and Mictlan. Of those, Ur was the real threat, and Mictlan was only a threat because I couldn't send my capital-defense army far enough to crush them conclusively (their jaguar warriors might as well have been made out of butter - the few victories they won were largely against either armyless provinces, indies I had hired, or mercs I deliberately suicided into their army because their contract was about to run out #VaderWouldBeProud).
As for Ur, they had 200-300 troops and 25ish mages in their army, so when they first showed up to besiege my capital, I had my army sit inside while assassins killed their mages/commanders, until they finally called off the attack for a while (they attempted to return, but then we get signal: all your base are belong to tompliss).
That reminds me, in my province information for the under-siege province, the turn before Ur's army completely left, the supplies were about to run out in the province while I was under siege. I was assuming at the time that those were my supplies, and not the enemy army's supplies. Is that correct?
Post by: tompliss on May 30, 2014, 04:43:26 am
On the other hand, you have access to the Neteret of Many Names, that has inspiring researcher 2, to help you boost your research engine. She has bast costs to magic patchs at 20, but higher starting dominion (that compensate the buying cost of 2 paths).
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 30, 2014, 05:16:20 am
Post by: Mindmaker on May 30, 2014, 05:19:29 am
A rainbow should be sitesearching, not researching. Also to really benefit from him you would need to get an awake one, which leaves you with little points.
I mean I was considering getting one of the inspiring researchers, but then I saw that your national researchers aren't all that bad. You can get the F2 ones and use them as battlemages later.
I probably should be getting some of those paths at 4 instead of 2, but I don't know which ones.
Edit:
Also astral gems never hurt, they are a rather rare sort and very precious for endgame so +1 right from the start is nice.
Post by: tompliss on May 30, 2014, 05:26:26 am
A rainbow should be sitesearching, not researching.Well, the inspiring researcher doesn't really matter in the first years, when raindow site-searching brings the most it can (as you get a new province per turn then), as afterwards, you can expect to have a bit of income in most paths, and provinces you get from enemies are susceptible to have been researched.
EDIT: but it may be a good idea to keep him at home for a turn or two, to get Evo:1 up quickly, so the pretender helps in combats...
Post by: Frumple on May 30, 2014, 05:58:53 am
Problem being that if you did run for staves, you'd be having either a fire or earth overlap with your nationals. Not exactly the worst thing (at least for earth -- fire would be kinda' wasteful), but eh.
Post by: tompliss on May 30, 2014, 06:29:30 am
And you get to have easy access to the earth spells that offer nice boosts to the armies.
For water, 1 may be a bit low for site-searching and as the booster would need construction 6, you would have to wait for a long time before you can get something good from that.
Also a little thing you might want to think about, even if it goes agaisnt the other pieces of advice : the Heat inducing ritual is F3A1. You won't have air on your mages, and you may not want F3 on your pretender, but the spell can be good...
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 30, 2014, 11:59:37 am
I invaded three people at once early on in an attempt to grab four thrones, one of which was deep in Ur, and I was just assuming I could punch my way through their territory because it LOOKED undefended, but my entire Ur-invading army got clobbered the second it stepped into their territory, and then a massive army came back out and took several of my provinces.
Actually it was undefended. I remember scrambling to get defenders up to try and stop your troops from rampaging across my lands. When I saw how easily I managed to stop you I literally couldn't believe it. That bit about your demonbreds suiciding themselves on 5 PD was pretty silly too.
Post by: azurelao on May 30, 2014, 02:32:25 pm
Post by: RexMundi on May 30, 2014, 05:25:56 pm
Post by: TripJack on May 30, 2014, 05:28:56 pm
Post by: E. Albright on May 30, 2014, 06:09:30 pm
Does anyone have tips for playing EA Ulm?
The Desura forums have a guide (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/primer-ea-ulm-not-gods-not-giants-just-men) generally described as pretty solid.
Post by: RexMundi on May 30, 2014, 06:17:42 pm
it is still 50% off on steam, deal lasts until mondayholy crap, didn't see that, thanks so much!
Post by: Mindmaker on May 30, 2014, 06:46:50 pm
Post by: Frumple on May 30, 2014, 09:56:15 pm
*40% chance to prevent per level, apparently. S3 or higher is guaranteed protection for the province that caster is in. Incidentally -- if you know S3 or better is in the province in question, don't mind hunt.
Post by: E. Albright on May 30, 2014, 10:25:31 pm
Post by: rumpel on May 31, 2014, 01:06:47 am
Post by: Frumple on May 31, 2014, 01:24:33 am
As for MP, it's either PBEM (play by e-mail, if you're not familiar with the term) or hotseat, iirc, the latter of which is only helpful if you've got someone in person to game with.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 31, 2014, 01:25:35 am
MP can be handled by two ways:
Players directly connecting to the server (ran by one of the players in the set game). This setting is rarely used unless we're talking about blitzes, which are short 1-5 hour matches of mostly continuous playing. There's no lobby, you'll have to communicate the port number/IP between the players. From the few blitzes I've played I can say it's very easy and painless to set up.
Majority of MP is done via PBEM, in which every player sends and receives turns from a server (usually llamaserver, server ran by a prominent dom4 community member). If you've never done PBEM, it stands for Play-By-E-Mail. You need to manually send and receive turn files through your email client for it to work. Some people find that very tedious, some don't. This type of game usually lasts several months. I think 2-5 months for most games would be a fair guesstimate. Depends a bit on the settings and size of your game.
If it isn't clear from the above, you pretty much need to organize a game outside of the client. There's no fast drop-in drop-out gaming for dominions. As an MP experience, it requires a bit more commitment than your average team fortress/starcraft match. Not everyone's cup of tea.
If you think you might enjoy the MP, I'd say the current steam sales price is definitely worth it. If you're pretty sure you'll just play for single player, at that price I'd still seriously consider getting it. There's quite a bit of variety and interesting bits to explore in the SP portion alone if you're into that.
Post by: rumpel on May 31, 2014, 01:35:05 am
So it's like Civilization multiplayer? That's cool! At least sounds like I'd enjoy single player and the occasional dozens of hours long matches with friends locally while chatting and drinking beer and stuff. I mean, the Civ AI kinda does the same. You can beat its ass up to the moon.
Just thought there would be some kind of lobby because people making MP a big deal on Dominions 4 Steam forums.
I assume there's a forum where people meet to get a PBEM match started?
Thanks for you replies! I think I'm going to get it.
Post by: Shadowlord on May 31, 2014, 01:39:03 am
There's a huge manual in pdf form (also orderable in dead tree form), clocking in at around 400 pages (IIRC) including informational charts and so forth. It's entirely possible to just start a singleplayer game with a random nation and make a pretender on the fly without knowing what you're doing, just to see how it goes and learn from the experience, but you wouldn't want to do that in multiplayer, obviously, and generally folks will study a faction's units and their capabilities before deciding how to design their pretender. You can also make a pretender, and then test it out in SP. You'd want to have some understanding of the gameplay while designing a pretender, ideally, but you can get that either from reading the manual, or from skimming the manual and then just making something and trying it out in the game (and for me at least, experimenting is an easier way to learn than trying to read, understand, and remember a 400 page pdf).
It's also much faster than civilization multiplayer in terms of what you can do in one turn.
Post by: RexMundi on May 31, 2014, 02:05:55 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 31, 2014, 02:21:04 am
That seems to be the case in other places I've played or lurked in. Notably, dominions forum (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum) on desura is the official one. Correspondingly it has a sizable number of players. Dom4mods (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?act=idx) is another community that's built purely around playing and modding dominions 4. You'll probably want to check the modding board there eventually even if you're not looking to play there.
Many major online gaming communities seem to have a side dish of dominions.
Post by: Mindmaker on May 31, 2014, 06:13:36 am
It's just that all of the chassis I want to use have S1, even though I don't need it for what I have planned.
I basically need to put it as 4 or 5 just so my pretender can leave the house.
Post by: chaoticag on May 31, 2014, 06:35:18 am
Still, playing around in singleplayer is a good idea. It's a lot more slow paced than multiplayer, and you can take your time to come up with strategies, and evaluate what you have, and you get enough leeway to bury things under a mountain of troops. It's always fun seeing how battles turn out no matter where they happen, and in singleplayer you get to see more of those wonderful big huge battles, so yeah. Honestly, if this game is up your alley, you can enjoy it quite a few ways.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 31, 2014, 09:39:45 am
I've heard some people really like and make use of "learning" games with the disciple system. I haven't tried it myself on either side of the teacher-student divide. But if there's one available it's certainly worth considering.
Post by: azurelao on May 31, 2014, 12:54:43 pm
Does anyone have tips for playing EA Ulm?
The Desura forums have a guide (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/primer-ea-ulm-not-gods-not-giants-just-men) generally described as pretty solid.
Thanks! I've been playing with them and they seem pretty decent.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 01, 2014, 04:22:18 am
Post by: Biowraith on June 01, 2014, 04:30:59 am
Post by: LongDongSilver on June 01, 2014, 11:00:50 am
Post by: lijacote on June 01, 2014, 11:02:50 am
Post by: tompliss on June 01, 2014, 11:50:17 am
So, when using sea nation, you may want to think twice before recruiting many aquatic units :D
Post by: rumpel on June 01, 2014, 07:15:40 pm
Post by: Karlito on June 01, 2014, 07:20:19 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 01, 2014, 07:21:14 pm
https://www.youtube.com/user/marcusaureliuslp/playlists
I've watched and greatly enjoyed Maerlande's tutorial/playthrough of an MP game he played:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXa4InahZRZkqRrmqug0C4t1Zvgzo0vRm
The latter is a pretty good tutorial viewing for anyone looking to get into dominions MP as the guy can actually play the game and explains most of his actions as he does them.
edit:
Maerlande's stuff is fairly short and to the point so if you're strapped for time but want to see moving pictures, I'd recommend him.
Post by: lijacote on June 01, 2014, 07:22:58 pm
There's some good ones for Dominions 3 (http://lparchive.org/Dominions-3/) around, and 4 is basically just a straight upgrade from 3. All the video content I remember seeing for Dominions 4 was by people who didn't really know how to play (this was prior to release), so I can't recommend anything there.This (http://lparchive.org/Dominions-3-%28by-Lilli-et-al%29/) one is especially good. Lots of fun and interesting stuff.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 02, 2014, 09:22:07 pm
https://pledgie.com/campaigns/25522/
IIRC he does these every few years to cover the costs of running a dedicated game server. It's all there in the pledge description really.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 13, 2014, 03:12:57 am
Post by: tompliss on June 13, 2014, 03:42:03 am
On the other hand, most of them aren't really special, and therer are very few of them. I read on the Desura forum that 98% of the magic sites (with the weighted randomization) are found with 3 in all paths (and 95% with 2).
Considering how game-changing a mage with paths at 4 or more can be, once you have some research done, magic searching should nearly never be what they're doing ^^
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 13, 2014, 03:46:28 am
Especially if you're a magic site hoarder like myself.
Post by: E. Albright on June 13, 2014, 10:40:09 am
Post by: MoLAoS on June 13, 2014, 02:49:50 pm
Post by: tompliss on June 13, 2014, 02:49:52 pm
there's one (Oath Stone) with no effects whateverIt may be linked to events happening there. I think I read something about events possible only with sites (other than the obvious throne-related events).
Post by: E. Albright on June 13, 2014, 03:56:16 pm
Post by: Culise on June 13, 2014, 04:03:07 pm
Oh, yes, there are lots of site-specific events; e.g., the Mist-Covered Highlands or the Silver Sarcophagus. Those are normal low-level sites though. From a design perspective, I can't see why there needs to be level 6 sites unless they're just really, really hard to find, and even setting aside the extreme oddity of having randomly generated level 6s while level 5s are only event spawned, the scant handful of level 6s don't seem to have power commensurate with that level. There's probably something glaringly obvious that we're just not thinking of, though.Events, unlocked recruitable commanders/units, those lovely increases in ritual ranges for some of them (Necromancer Lair, Tower of Ice/Thorns), healing in the Isle of Rebirth (especially with the massive reduction in Disease removal for Dom4), and probably some other hidden effects for the others.
Post by: LongDongSilver on June 14, 2014, 08:58:25 pm
Post by: Frumple on June 14, 2014, 09:12:45 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 14, 2014, 09:37:52 pm
Post by: Biowraith on June 15, 2014, 01:45:24 am
Post by: Mindmaker on June 15, 2014, 06:09:18 pm
Not really sure what base unit type I should use in which situation.
Post by: Karlito on June 15, 2014, 08:43:51 pm
Post by: Duuvian on June 15, 2014, 08:44:20 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on June 16, 2014, 02:52:57 am
Spear+shield at the front, multi attack weapons like flails if you can get them for low protection enemies, and axes for high protection enemies. At least that's how I use Bogarus troops in Dom 3. I can't remember what Abyssia infantry uses.
Battleaxe, flail, Axe+Shield, and Morningstar+Shield, for their regular troops, and their sacreds (Burning Ones) have two morningstars.
They lack spears, and archers, and if they recruit indies, they have an unfortunate tendency to accidentally light them on fire unless fielding them as entirely separate armies. (They also have an unfortunate tendency to occasionally set their blood slaves on fire during battles as well)
Post by: tompliss on June 16, 2014, 03:15:15 am
They lack [...] archersWell, that's why they have Fireballs ! :D
Post by: chaoticag on June 16, 2014, 03:17:14 am
I know flails are considered something of an exception to the blunt weapon averse, since it's multi-attack, it's got a better chance of hitting the head, and reduces defense when it attacks.
And personally, from what I know about their sacreds (two morning stars, set people on fire) I'd think I'd use them with a major nature bless with a minor earth, idea being they'd be best the longer they last.
My two cents though, never played the nation myself, and I'm basing what I'm saying on hearsay and a bit on the manual.
Post by: Shadowgandor on June 16, 2014, 03:31:24 am
Would there be any interest in a map like that? One where you can try and create the ultimate SC, army or whatever and pit them against similar armies.
Post by: Frumple on June 16, 2014, 05:20:05 am
How would you deal with the freespawn nations, though? Mod in low cost or costless recruitment for 'em? Units with dom or active summoning? Just disable the sad buggers? And those poor underwater nations... give everything amphibious, maybe, and just sprinkle water provinces around? Also maybe some caves. Somewhere.
Also, flying/teleporting/offensive ritual spells/etc. Honor system, mod out, let the shenanigans flow free, something else? Gods know one of my first thoughts with a blood nation would be to take my massive income, hire up a crapton of toad rain capable casters, and blanket everyone else's provinces with crippling income penalties :P
Similarly, anything with ready access to pop killing spells would just be, like, "Allz y'all get rekt, lololololol" and then walk into the center after everyone else has lost their entire income base.
E: Though in immediate retrospect, that might be a good argument in favor of cost adjustment instead of anything province based. Less room for chicanery.
Post by: Mindmaker on June 16, 2014, 07:55:16 am
I think I have a basic idea on how to use them now.
Post by: Culise on June 16, 2014, 09:20:40 am
Sounds like it'd be fairly amusing. Can't help but wonder if it'd be a good idea to just go directly at the source and adjust costs instead of finagling with custom sites, though. That would let you be a lot more versatile about where/who is, well, where and doing what.Or make a "hill" region rather than a hill province, either at the hill itself or a conduit of provinces leading in - one large enough that they can't just throw rituals over it at a whim (4-6 provinces). That way, if they want to hit you with rituals, sure, but they'll need to station all of those casters in hitting range. That would also solve the flying issue.
How would you deal with the freespawn nations, though? Mod in low cost or costless recruitment for 'em? Units with dom or active summoning? Just disable the sad buggers? And those poor underwater nations... give everything amphibious, maybe, and just sprinkle water provinces around? Also maybe some caves. Somewhere.
Also, flying/teleporting/offensive ritual spells/etc. Honor system, mod out, let the shenanigans flow free, something else? Gods know one of my first thoughts with a blood nation would be to take my massive income, hire up a crapton of toad rain capable casters, and blanket everyone else's provinces with crippling income penalties :P
Similarly, anything with ready access to pop killing spells would just be, like, "Allz y'all get rekt, lololololol" and then walk into the center after everyone else has lost their entire income base.
E: Though in immediate retrospect, that might be a good argument in favor of cost adjustment instead of anything province based. Less room for chicanery.
Post by: tompliss on June 17, 2014, 02:11:19 am
Quote from: a Dev in the Official forum
Expect a patch in the upcoming week. [...] Ragha and Caelum are more or less finished now.Notice the singular "week".
Happy ! :D
Improved and balanced Caelum, a new nation, and multiple event/throne fixes !
Post by: TwilightWalker on June 21, 2014, 12:29:02 pm
Post by: Toady Two on June 21, 2014, 12:40:39 pm
You can start by playing multiplayer with your friend. It's a good way to learn since IMO multiplayer is the main focus of the game. Some people do play exclusively single player but I don't really get that since the AI can't even scratch the surface of the games strategic depth.
Post by: chaoticag on June 21, 2014, 12:56:45 pm
So, just how hard is it to get into this? Me and a friend were looking to expand our 4x/Grand Strategy library after playing Fall From Heaven and several other games a few times. But we're unsure if we can get into playing this with just how much depth there is behind it, or if we're going to be stuck learning even how to play he game at its basics for weeks on end.There's a decent amount of depths and a ton of stuff to find out. I wouldn't say the game is difficult to get into, and the manual has a tutorial that it walks you through if you need it. It helps you get around the big barrier to playing the game, which is designing a god.
Once you're past that, I think there's a big chunk of exploring options. My advice is take it slow. This is a game you can play until you burn out on if you do decide to pick it up.
Post by: Duuvian on June 21, 2014, 02:13:15 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 21, 2014, 02:25:10 pm
There's usually a newbie game running in one place or another in the wide web so you can get your feet wet without getting you ass kicked by a seasoned veteran. There's a special team mode called "disciples" so you can play in a 2-player team with your friend against other people in a 2v2 (v2v2v2) format. Of if you're more of a SP/coop players, you can do a 2v10 against AIs for some horde smashing.
There are a few community made guides and tutorials for pretender creation and other things. I think they do a decent job at helping people get started.
Post by: Frumple on June 21, 2014, 03:08:50 pm
Post by: lijacote on June 21, 2014, 03:30:58 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 21, 2014, 04:19:51 pm
Post by: lijacote on June 23, 2014, 08:00:21 am
Post by: Karlito on June 23, 2014, 09:44:04 am
Post by: lijacote on June 23, 2014, 10:41:34 am
Post by: E. Albright on June 25, 2014, 08:13:38 pm
Spoiler: Changelog for Version 4.07 (taken from IW site) (click to show/hide)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 25, 2014, 08:20:01 pm
Caelum nations have got some new/altered units, equipment, descriptions and sites
Ice Crafting for MA Caelum
Ice Lances have charge ability
Many new Pretenders for Caelum and Abysia
New Summons for Caelum/Ragha
New national spells for Caelum/Ragha
Excellent... *rubs hands with glee*
Of course the Dom 4 Inspector doesn't have the new patch yet, so I can't see the new nation or any of the Caelum changes yet,
EDIT: I just remembered that the charge ability is based off of AP, and Caelum's units have absolutely terrible AP. Like, 9 at most Except for MA's Wingless and 4~9 encumbrance to boot. So charge on the lances aren't going to help too much. Unless the unit tweaks affected AP/Encumbrance of course.
Post by: E. Albright on June 25, 2014, 08:27:37 pm
Quote from: Changelog
Fliers get size*2 as charge damage if it exceeds the old AP/3
So twice as good for an AP9 birdie.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 25, 2014, 08:30:45 pm
Post by: Alkhemia on June 25, 2014, 08:58:08 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 25, 2014, 09:42:41 pm
And now to create a nation of size-6 fliers for maximum justice.
Illwinter is at least half a step ahead of you. Ragha has size 5 sacred secondshape (IOW, jag-esque; they regain their riders if the riderless mount survives the battle) gryphons with heavy armor and 3 strong attacks beyond their oneshot lance. That's in addition to the sacred iceclad Caelians with ice lances and normal Caelians with ice lances.
Post by: Frumple on June 25, 2014, 10:32:48 pm
... and generate fire gems. That is a helluva thing.
Do find the temperature locked recruitment kinda' annoying, though. I want my ice-critters to be sexy, but still be able to recruit those ridiculous gryphons ;_;
E: Also just noticed their main line PD commander... is their scout. I think someone screwed up, there :P
Post by: tompliss on June 26, 2014, 02:14:58 am
Post by: lijacote on June 26, 2014, 03:42:06 am
Post by: E. Albright on June 26, 2014, 04:02:59 am
E: Also just noticed their main line PD commander... is their scout. I think someone screwed up, there :P
It's fixed along with the StR bug in 4.07b.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 09:41:49 am
Illwinter is at least half a step ahead of you. Ragha has size 5 sacred secondshape (IOW, jag-esque; they regain their riders if the riderless mount survives the battle) gryphons with heavy armor and 3 strong attacks beyond their oneshot lance. That's in addition to the sacred iceclad Caelians with ice lances and normal Caelians with ice lances.
Goddamn, I wish I could see them. Also, I just remembered that an amazon tribe has gryphon riders with lances too. Which probably doesn't make them that much better to use, considering that they're size 5 and cost 110 gold, but eh.
Post by: Frumple on June 26, 2014, 11:58:54 am
Alternately, if you've got steam, the GG activation code will kick it on for steam. They might already have the latest version.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 12:31:13 pm
4.07's up on gamersgate, mate. 4.07b isn't, if that's already out, but 4.07 is. Raggy's pretty neat.
Alternately, if you've got steam, the GG activation code will kick it on for steam. They might already have the latest version.
I know that gamersgate has the patch, but it won't download for me for some reason. But I didn't know about the Steam thing, so... might as well give that a try. Hopefully they do have the patch so I can drool over Ragha.
EDIT: And of course I give it one last try and now it works perfectly. Yay.
EDIT2: RAGHA IS THE BESTEST. BADASS ABYSIAN INFANTRY AND KICKASS CAELUM ARCHERS. AND WIND GUIDE AND FLAMING ARROWS. I think I'm in love~
...
The temperature mechanics are probably going to annoy the heck out of me though, and their mages are kinda... eh. Still, Ragha is definitely awesome.
Post by: Shadowlord on June 26, 2014, 12:44:15 pm
Post by: lijacote on June 26, 2014, 01:06:17 pm
You mean the totally awesome bane fire -flinging monsters?4.07's up on gamersgate, mate. 4.07b isn't, if that's already out, but 4.07 is. Raggy's pretty neat.their mages are kinda... eh. Still, Ragha is definitely awesome.
Alternately, if you've got steam, the GG activation code will kick it on for steam. They might already have the latest version.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 01:10:45 pm
You mean the totally awesome bane fire -flinging monsters?
Yeah, I pretty much retract my previous statement about their mages. They are definitely amazing. The Zaotar are great regardless of which random they get. The Dastur could be better, but I suppose they're partly your blood hunters anyways. The StR guys are definitely amazing all around. The only problems they have are that they're expensive to recruit. To me the Caelum mages seem better all around, but that's probably a preference thing. CAW CAW
Post by: Antur on June 26, 2014, 01:12:10 pm
Post by: Frumple on June 26, 2014, 01:14:27 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 01:15:12 pm
Ragha is pure awesome, wish they had some national spells for temperature control but that would probably be bit too good.
Wolven Winter and Breath of the Desert are your friends. Both of which are castable by their mages, though you'll need a water booster for Wolven Winter.
Also, tHEY GET SPIRITS TO GUARD THEIR PRIESTS IN BATTLE?!?!? HOW AWESOME IS THAT?
EDIT: Or maybe just their prophet. Still pretty cool though.
Post by: Antur on June 26, 2014, 01:16:58 pm
Also, tHEY GET SPIRITS TO GUARD THEIR PRIESTS IN BATTLE?!?!? HOW AWESOME IS THAT?Wait what ?
Post by: Mindmaker on June 26, 2014, 01:25:58 pm
Post by: Frumple on June 26, 2014, 01:42:56 pm
Basically, they've got a lot of neat stuff but their pretty much everything* costs a shitload, and they're in that unenviable position where they want both scales and a bless, and both heat and cold. They've got a lot going for 'em, but using it all is more than a little bit of a juggling act.
*Except those delicious flying composite bow users. 10/7, base 12 prec, composite bow? Yes, oh gods, please. Of course, their flaming arrow casters can't fly, but...
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 26, 2014, 01:49:03 pm
Unless you take cold/heat scales, you're basically only able to buy anything that is not a basic mage-priest(100gp, 1F 1H +1?, 9rp) or mundane(good, albeit very resource heavy) units during winter and summer.
If you do take some heat/cold scales, you're practically shutting half your options out, unless you plan to get to Murdering Winter/Breath of the Desert quickly. You'll still be spending gems and killing your cap population just to be able to buy some units.
Unit gp/res prices and horrendous temple cost mean you need to invest heavily into scales AND high dominion, leaving little extra to give those rare, costly sacreds some nice bless.
The concept is fun, but they'll be a pain to play.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 01:56:32 pm
Wait what ?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well that guy kept on showing up in battles with my prophet, so... I dunno what else to call it. And their nation overview mentions guardians under the priest entry too. Not terribly useful from what I can tell, but still pretty neat.
-snip-
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you've said. They're good in the sense that they've got excellent strengths, not that they're good at everything.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 26, 2014, 02:03:32 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 02:07:00 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 26, 2014, 02:23:14 pm
Should be easy to test with a few priests v archer indies.
Post by: E. Albright on June 26, 2014, 02:49:01 pm
(Major water would probably be ideal, since they're both flying with a charge attack, but they want at least minor earth and probably some degree of N or D if they can swing it, too.)
Major water is actually almost entirely irrelevant to the charge attack, as it won't give them enough AP by itself to increase their charge damage above what their size as flyers does (the Abysians need AP above 30 to exceed that bonus, and the Caelians need AP above 18). They still benefit from the other aspects of it, ofc.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 03:27:48 pm
Oh, that might be a balance thing. The shikigami are very weak but are present at the start of every battle. Do the Fravashi appear once the priests take any damage?
Should be easy to test with a few priests v archer indies.
No, they definitely appear at the start of the battle, before the priests take damage. I haven't really done any testing though, so I can't say for sure. I've been mostly looking at Caelum's tweaks. And so far it seems like a step sideways to me.
Spoiler: USEC Rambles about Caelum's changes. (click to show/hide)
Post by: tompliss on June 26, 2014, 04:04:51 pm
[EA] Harab Seraphs have a 100% chance of A/E/D instead of 10% D that they had before.I though I read about that going also for the LA StR mage... ???
It would be great to give them more ThunderStrike/Storm potential.
Post by: E. Albright on June 26, 2014, 04:10:04 pm
They've got new summons, but they're at the high end of the Conjuration school of magic.
Did you notice the new combat spell and remote (neutral) attack spell under Thaum6 and 7, respectively?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 04:17:59 pm
[EA] Harab Seraphs have a 100% chance of A/E/D instead of 10% D that they had before.I though I read about that going also for the LA StR mage... ???
It would be great to give them more ThunderStrike/Storm potential.
Yeah, I wish that the Harab Elders got some more magic too. Or at least some more focused magic or something. Right now they can get a random from Fire, Air, Water, Earth and Death and that's just silly.
Did you notice the new combat spell and remote (neutral) attack spell under Thaum6 and 7, respectively?
Nope, thanks for pointing them out to me. I'll have to use them to see how effective it is I guess. At least it makes LA Caelum happier, since their basic mages can now paralyze people and summon random chaff at the same time. Also, it's hardly a neutral attack spell if it's specific to Caelum. Doesn't take much to figure out who used it after all. Anyways I guess I'll talk about them when I talk about their summons too.
Post by: E. Albright on June 26, 2014, 04:25:42 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 04:30:44 pm
Post by: Frumple on June 26, 2014, 04:35:12 pm
E: Though now I kinda' wonder. If both nations hit the same province on the same turn with the spell, and the first one conquers the province... does the second group join up with the first, or attack it?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 07:25:51 pm
Spoiler: Caelum's New Summons (click to show/hide)
, Shock Resistant (5), Fire Resistant (5), Need not Eat, Demon, Flying, Bringer of Misfortune (5), Chaos Power (1!)
tl;dr version: As things stand, LA Caelum is laughing. For 15 gems and easily obtainable magic paths they get a commander that can seduce and blast combat magic and other fun stuff. Realistically all of Caelum's summons are high up in the research chain, rather expensive and kinda underwhelming. Not entirely useless, but it's hard to justify the costs of some of the summons.
Also, I tried out Parting of the Soul. It's definitely useful. Each use can paralyze the target and summons 4~ black hawks. The black hawks are chaff, but they're flying chaff and appear right next to the enemy. In other words, the spell is perfect for disrupting the scripting of the enemy. Anybody set to attack flyers will go for the hawks instead, and anybody charging will probably bunch up to deal with them (thus allowing you to thunderstrike them to death). Against SCs/thugs it's great too. Even if the spell doesn't paralyze them, it'll still summon some chaff to disrupt their buffing cycle and mess with their orders. It's not a silver bullet though, but it certainly has its uses.
Post by: E. Albright on June 26, 2014, 08:17:05 pm
E: Though now I kinda' wonder. If both nations hit the same province on the same turn with the spell, and the first one conquers the province... does the second group join up with the first, or attack it?
I'd assume since the spell would be producing two armies of the same (special independent) faction, even if the casters are from different nations the armies would all attack at once.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 26, 2014, 09:23:47 pm
Like I thought the Celestial Yazad/Call Yatas spells can summon different types of commanders. The Daeva are all 3X3D2H casters with Fear (8), where X is either Fire, Water or Astral. The 3S ones are interesting because they take 3D2F to summon, but have Astral to break you into the good summons. In other words LA Caelum technically doesn't need to take Astral. Admittedly they'll have to dump lots of Death gems until they finally get the 3S dudes, and lots of Astral gems until they get the right Yazad, but it's still a thing. Speaking of Yazads they're sorta all over the place. All of them have 2H and awe, but as servants of the Amesha Spentas they have a good spread of magic paths among a bunch of different dudes. They could be 3E2S2N, 4W2S, 4F2S, 4A2S, 2A4S, and maybe something else that I missed. Overall not 100% amazing for 40 gems. And that counts for both the Yazad and Yatas.
Spoiler: Amesha Spenta/Greater Daeva (click to show/hide)
So... yeah. That's all of Caelum's new summons. Unfortunately they're more expensive than powerful, but I'm sure that they have their uses, and at the very least they provide some needed magic diversity to Caelum. Could be worse I guess, and nothing is forcing you to use them after all.
Oh and the Call of the Drugvant (The Thaum 7 spell) is kinda... underwhelming. It summons a random number of villains, Daeva and commanders to lead them. The Daeva are led by a special Ahu commander which is basically a Daeva with 2H and leadership. The problem is the random part. I've seen as few as 2 Daeva and as many as 9 from the few tests I did and the success of the attack largely depends on how many show up. So you're pretty much throwing away 15 gems for an attack that may or may not work against PD. Yeah... At least the Daevas disappear after the attack, so all that's left is the villains defending the place. Though if you can stomp 20 villains, you should probably be able to stomp PD. Oh well.
Post by: tompliss on June 27, 2014, 02:08:16 am
EDIT: @ E. Albright : Well, looks like there are 2 modding keys for Stealth boosting items... I think that's because the Death+Earth ones give stealth even if you don't have before, and the Astral/Nature ones only boost natural stealth. :/
Anyway, the death/earth ones can be crafted, at least by LA Caelum and lucky EA Caelum (even if 10 gems for 20 stealth is a bit much, when you already spent many in summoning) ...
Post by: E. Albright on June 27, 2014, 02:56:34 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 27, 2014, 10:33:42 am
what is disappointing, with all those Stealth 25 summons is that stealth boosters are either Nature-based and cheap, or Astral-based, higher in the constr tree, and expensive (constr4, S2, for +20 stealth)... :/
It's not too bad. Remember that Summon Yata can give you 3S mages to forge the equipment, and the Yazads have Astral/Nature mages as well. But considering that you have to dump 40 gems to summon one... Maybe that's not the best idea.
EDIT: @ E. Albright : Well, looks like there are 2 modding keys for Stealth boosting items... I think that's because the Death+Earth ones give stealth even if you don't have before, and the Astral/Nature ones only boost natural stealth. :/
Anyway, the death/earth ones can be crafted, at least by LA Caelum and lucky EA Caelum
Actually EA Caelum can forge the Death/Earth stealth boosters naturally-ish. The Harab Seraphs in EA now get a A/E/D random, so you just have to forge a skull staff and hand it off to a E random. But... Then your Greater Daeva just lost an armour or miscellaneous slot to boost their stealth. Or more likely both. It's... sorta stupid.
(even if 10 gems for 20 stealth is a bit much, when you already spent many in summoning) ...
Just because you've spent the gems doesn't mean that you should keep throwing gems at it to make it better. Or something like that. Honestly I'm crossing my fingers for a buff to the Greater Daeva since they're so lackluster now, but that patch will probably nerf the Parikia too so... *shrug*
Also, the Dominions Mod Inspector finally has the new patch up... sorta. The spells/summoning things are broken and some of the units don't have all of their abilities listed, but it's probably better than looking at my rambles.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 28, 2014, 03:39:32 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 28, 2014, 09:12:36 am
No, I don't know the rationale. Were the summons in dom3 vanilla free of similar issues?
Post by: Frumple on June 28, 2014, 10:33:04 am
Post by: Karlito on June 28, 2014, 11:51:02 am
Post by: Mindmaker on July 01, 2014, 03:37:27 pm
Currently 25 turns in and I have 6 dedicated fireball throwers, 3 Flare/Prison of Fire users and another StR mage for the leadership bonus and for any of the upcoming higher tier spells. Just feels like a bit of overkill for an an army of ~125, but I've got little experience in playing against human players.
I really want to hit the sweet spot where I get most out of them without gimping my research and wasting bigger spells on mostly empty tiles.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 01, 2014, 03:52:40 pm
If your regular/sacred troops are good enough to mop up enemy armies, you don't need mage support, and the eggheads are better employed researching, searching or forging. If you face enemy troops that are too tough to deal, you need to employ mages, even if it means reducing your research capacity to zero.
It's all about adaptation.
Post by: PrimusRibbus on July 01, 2014, 04:27:52 pm
I err towards a low number of mages because there are fights that you are just going to lose period. It's better to write off a couple mages here and there than to lose many mages in one shot and have your entire strategy derailed.
Post by: Mindmaker on July 01, 2014, 06:20:28 pm
Guess I'll just rush that merry little group into combat in two turns and find out.
I'll probably leave 4 of those fireball throwers at home for research purposeses though.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 19, 2014, 12:08:08 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 19, 2014, 12:11:53 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 19, 2014, 12:12:38 pm
As for, like, reality lightning causing diseases, sure. Just about anything that can kill flesh can cause necrosis to set in or whathaveyou and make it easier for disease to screw you over. Infections, etc., etc.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 19, 2014, 12:22:44 pm
I also captured a province with a site which says it spreads diseases (Inkpot End), but I haven't been able to find any information about it (so I don't know if it only affects that province, or adjacent ones, or what). (The guys catching diseases aren't in that province, but so far they've all been within two provinces of it)
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on July 19, 2014, 12:29:32 pm
There's also units and items that by their presence cause diseases. If there are any D nations in the game, it's possible that they've sent some sneaking disease spreaders to your lands. If not, it's possible that non-D nations have lucked out and gotten some D mages to get disease units/gear.
To my knowledge disease sites only work in the province they're in, so a nearby D site shouldn't be the cause of this.
Post by: snelg on July 19, 2014, 01:26:52 pm
It seems kind of weird that many commaders would get disease instead of other afflictions from the lightning. If there's many commander and many afflictions to pick from.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 19, 2014, 01:55:49 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 19, 2014, 02:12:50 pm
Or it could be some or all of the other stuff already mentioned, heh.
Post by: Karlito on July 19, 2014, 02:17:36 pm
Post by: snelg on July 19, 2014, 02:48:03 pm
Though, for what it's worth, the RNG is, well, R. It's unlikely that several commanders would get hit with disease from zap-bolts, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Could very well just be a statistical fluke, such as it is. After all, while there's many commanders and many afflictions to pick from, there's only so many commanders and afflictions to pick from. Repeats are possible, et al.Of course. most of the other things are unlikely as well, but any of them could be the cause. I haven't had my commanders targeted that hard by wrath of god so far. Which makes me think it's unlikely, and that it cause all the disease even more so... Then again I haven't had it active that long in the games I've played so far (which I'm thankful for since it's a pain).
Or it could be some or all of the other stuff already mentioned, heh.
Post by: E. Albright on July 19, 2014, 03:01:19 pm
Post by: AlStar on July 19, 2014, 10:25:03 pm
After far, far, far, too many hours I have created it: a tribute to the new version of Dwarf Fortress:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/536/ad5ea1.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/536/ad5ea1.png/)
Oram Dakon, The World of Omens.
19 start positions defined (2 water, 2 cave)
0 thrones defined.
284 land (15 caves), 43 sea.
Wraps in both directions.
You can pick it up HERE (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ok6m0euh6uf30v4/Oram_Dakon_AlStar.rar), if you're interested.
One of the reasons it took me so long was because I originally made the full map, which was about twice as tall. It ended up at 463 land provinces and 142 sea, and despite all the time I'd put into it, I decided that it was far, far too large to be playable; so I started over with just half of the map.
Any opinions?
Post by: Karlito on July 19, 2014, 10:50:44 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on July 22, 2014, 03:49:58 pm
Anybody could give me a rundown on how to manage bigger armies?
Edit: Nevermind, I think I found good enough explanations.
Edit 2: But I still haven't a clue.
Post by: AlStar on August 02, 2014, 10:21:34 am
That said, I decided to go with something on a much smaller scale than my last project:
I'm quite pleased with how it turned out (although the North/South map line is a little ugly, unfortunately.) I must have tried a dozen different ways to show terrain, with this basic color swap being the final call.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/285x256q90/912/Sc0ZoW.png)
Catacombs of the Titans
7 start positions defined (1 water, 1 cave)
0 thrones defined.
88 land (8 caves), 27 sea (13 lakes)
Wraps in both directions.
You can pick it up HERE (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ob0j0o848bbt14/Catacombs_of_the_Titans_AlStar.rar), if you're interested.
Post by: tompliss on August 02, 2014, 11:20:02 am
The textures seems a bit weird, though. without selecting the different ones, I thought the yellow where wastelands (they see mdesert-ish), the dark-green were forests, and the current forest were farm/wastelands...
You may also want to give it a few rivers (from lakes to oceans) to add bleu links, and the lack of mountains realyl is disturbing. I think there could be some at some points where skulls meet. Also, there could be some giant cliffs (used as mountain passes) between skulls, where you can thee se shadow from one into another.
Last thing, I have a problem with the sea provinces in the north-south wrapping : http://puu.sh/aBEz2/afda0b49b3.jpg
Post by: AlStar on August 03, 2014, 12:12:23 am
Wow, that seems really nice.
The textures seems a bit weird, though. without selecting the different ones, I thought the yellow where wastelands (they see mdesert-ish), the dark-green were forests, and the current forest were farm/wastelands...
You may also want to give it a few rivers (from lakes to oceans) to add bleu links, and the lack of mountains realyl is disturbing. I think there could be some at some points where skulls meet. Also, there could be some giant cliffs (used as mountain passes) between skulls, where you can thee se shadow from one into another.
Last thing, I have a problem with the sea provinces in the north-south wrapping : http://puu.sh/aBEz2/afda0b49b3.jpg
I decided to take your critique about my textures to heart, and spent about an hour really working at getting something nice up. Left the forests alone for now (I don't hate them, although I don't love them either.) But I'm really happy with the way the new farms, marshes, and wastelands came out (IMO, of course.)
Fixed two provinces that were missing connections with their local sea. Added one more waste (before there were just the two next to each other, which limits their use for nations that care about that sort of thing.) and one more farmland.
Debated about adding in some rivers and/or mountains. Haven't decided yet.
The Northern/Southern sea is a little odd looking, but the connections are correct. I was trying to cut down on the number of sea provinces, but I might cut the one you pointed out in half (horizontally) so it doesn't look quite so odd. Adding provinces gives me nightmares though. I had to add in like 5 provinces that I'd missed in my other map (one at the time, as I noticed them, even worse) - even trying to use the tools that the map editor gives you, it would completely break like 1/2 the map's connections.
Anyway, new version is up at the same link as before. New preview looks like this:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/285x256q90/536/Okefq9.png)
edit: (don't feel like bumping this topic just for stuff about my map)
Added some nostarts (especially for water provinces) - a second water nation is, statistically speaking, probably going to pop up around the broken western skull. Also, since I got some comments about my colors being a bit garish, I've toned down the default green of normal provinces and the blue of the seas. Oh - and I fooled around with the forest texture.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/285x256q90/746/fE2EU6.png)
Post by: tompliss on August 03, 2014, 02:03:52 am
I don't know whether that wasa start provinces you specified, but I had a LA Abysia spawn on the "nose" of the western skull (in the preview), the province with only 1 land neighbour... :/
Post by: Endymion on August 07, 2014, 06:41:53 pm
Of late I've been hanging out with a steam group that does dominions 4 stuff, and have ended up in 2 different games with them. They're a tad faster than I remember the games on here going (28 hour turns seem to be the norm), and the group gets quick blitz games going every now and then as well. So if you're looking for games a bit faster paced then the ones around here, feel free to join us by getting into the steam chat for the group. http://steamcommunity.com/groups/clockworkforest
Honestly, this is posted in part because we could use a few subs in one of our games right now, a 24 player disciple game (8 teams of 3). It is also worth mentioning that all the group's games take place on a dedicated server instead of llama server. Admittedly it is a tad annoying to not have all the old turns archived for reference, but it is nice to not deal with moving around files manually.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on August 08, 2014, 04:16:14 am
I'm not too fond of blitzing though and my plate is pretty full as is.
Post by: Neonivek on August 08, 2014, 06:15:36 am
Quote
some people seem to really dislike the PBEM aspect of most MP games.
It is what honestly killed MP for me in dominions 3... But I think what I should have done is find ways to make it faster.
It was just a lot of work for what was going to just be me losing for hours and hours and hours.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 08, 2014, 07:16:47 am
Post by: Frumple on August 08, 2014, 07:27:12 am
Post by: AlStar on August 10, 2014, 07:47:36 pm
The Clockworks (153 land, 21 sea)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/260x256q90/631/xEqjws.png)
Full Image Link: HERE (https://www.dropbox.com/s/x0ca03cwj1uw6dd/Clockworks.png)
This time I bring you the Clockworks, a huge collection of gears that floats in the void (I tried a bunch of different backgrounds, but just kept going back to base grey - everything else looked too busy), waiting for someone to conquer it.
153 land, 21 sea.
The map wraps vertically.
Instead of going with defined start locations this time around, I just nostarted everything that looked like a poor start.
No defined throne positions.
There's just barely enough room for a single water nation in the "lake" near the center. I certainly wouldn't recommend trying to squish two in there.
Map is available HERE (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ob1pgsoe3ng0awn/Clockworks_AlStar.rar).
As a side note - a smart man would have colorized the gears _before_ he built the map; I am not a smart man. The only benefit of this is that the fancy 'jeweled' provinces all have unique color schemes, which looks pretty, but has no effect on the game. (I considered making them places of power, but thought that might overload the map with magic sites.)
Side note the second - I've got a PBEM game set up to run on the skull map up at the top of this page that's still looking for two players. First come, first serve: HERE (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141858.0).
Post by: Shadowlord on August 10, 2014, 07:51:55 pm
Post by: Frumple on August 10, 2014, 08:10:57 pm
Post by: chaoticag on August 15, 2014, 03:48:33 am
Post by: E. Albright on August 18, 2014, 10:40:50 am
So more fliers, and also a second subterranean nation.
The continued and intense support and ongoing development is hardly surprising given the prior games, but yeah, good stuff.
Post by: Mindmaker on August 24, 2014, 03:30:00 pm
Post by: tompliss on August 24, 2014, 03:35:52 pm
As admin of 408, I may force the turn hosting tomorrow, if most other games don't move (after all, the quickturn doesn't launch a turn if the last player sent his turn while it was off) or/and if there is no message about that from llamabeast ;)
Post by: Shadowlord on August 24, 2014, 05:42:14 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on August 24, 2014, 06:36:12 pm
As admin of 408, I may force the turn hosting tomorrow, if most other games don't move (after all, the quickturn doesn't launch a turn if the last player sent his turn while it was off) or/and if there is no message about that from llamabeast ;)
Not that it's relevant anymore, but I wouldn't advise that in case this happens again. There's a possibility that the server will process its backlog, process the turn and then process your force host, causing a stale for everyone. While some people don't have a problem with everyone staling, I think it's a bit unfair as people with more gold/gem income get a bit of an edge over their poorer fellows. And then there's of course people who use autorecruit and people who don't further imbalancing the equation.
Post by: Mindmaker on August 27, 2014, 05:39:11 pm
Spoiler: It keeps happening (click to show/hide)
Post by: E. Albright on August 27, 2014, 05:52:17 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 03, 2014, 02:44:26 pm
Hi - since there isn't a general dominions4 bay12 thread, I thought I'd post this in one of the newer game threads. What is this? Read on:
I created a brief survey to evaluate the size and interactions between different dominions communities. I've compiled a list of 17 distinct communities from various sources and interactions. There are three levels of activity: Play games with, post to, and lurk (and none, if you want to count not responding) I would appreciate it if people post this to different communities (e.g., SA) of their own initiative, as I don't have accounts or a presence on the majority of the communities I have listed.
survey (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ha0LRy5P8Ogc9fRLXKlkv35Ug1BZ9QNI4Jgd4jGv5FU/viewform?usp=send_form)
Post by: E. Albright on September 03, 2014, 02:48:39 pm
Post by: sum1won on September 04, 2014, 02:03:13 pm
results here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19QeKeoVDCsHQiN-iI4-zeVTIsAk1wOKu7RiFgug7kvk/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19QeKeoVDCsHQiN-iI4-zeVTIsAk1wOKu7RiFgug7kvk/edit?usp=sharing)
Survey here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ha0LRy5P8Ogc9fRLXKlkv35Ug1BZ9QNI4Jgd4jGv5FU/viewform (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ha0LRy5P8Ogc9fRLXKlkv35Ug1BZ9QNI4Jgd4jGv5FU/viewform)
Post by: Karlito on September 04, 2014, 02:05:51 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on September 04, 2014, 02:48:28 pm
How many other places did you actually post this?4chan at least.
Probably Desura as well.
Post by: tompliss on September 04, 2014, 02:54:02 pm
With about 95 responses, Bay12 appears to be around the third largest place for dominions 4 multiplayerSeems weird.
I'd say that it's "not that big" but players here are more susceptible to fill out a survey (especially that quickly)...
(and here is the Bay12 elitist feel again :-° )
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 04, 2014, 03:06:51 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on September 05, 2014, 02:51:03 am
Any input on the issue is welcome.
Post by: tompliss on September 05, 2014, 03:24:45 am
Other than that, not many things to say...
Post by: Mindmaker on September 05, 2014, 03:30:13 am
Spoiler: Current Design (click to show/hide)
Can't seem to find any combinations with an awake Dragon that I'd like.
There are always more independent nature mage when you make tests than when you go for a real play.I know you get nature income, but I don't really want to waste design points on that.
Edit: I'll be taking 1 Misfortune and 1 Heat for 3 Productions and 3 Growth unless somebody suggests otherwise.
Post by: tompliss on September 05, 2014, 05:21:13 am
Dom8 may be a bit high (expensive, but no awe). I don't know whether you want to recruit your sacred troops, but dom 6-7 may not be a bad option (even if it depends on your potential neighbours), and will get you some more points for scales.
Same thing about the temp scale (neighbors and stuff).
Post by: Mindmaker on September 05, 2014, 05:55:26 am
High scales benefit from high dom, since they spread faster (or at all, since other players will be spreading dom too).
Took a heat scale since my worst enemies in this game will be cold oriented.
Post by: tompliss on September 05, 2014, 07:05:34 am
They're all amphibious and can attack through a river, while your heat scale prevents it from freezing.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 05, 2014, 11:53:12 am
(Apparently only their summons are amphibious.)
Post by: E. Albright on September 05, 2014, 02:06:37 pm
Post by: chaoticag on September 05, 2014, 02:59:05 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 05, 2014, 04:08:15 pm
Dom8 may be a bit high (expensive, but no awe). I don't know whether you want to recruit your sacred troops, but dom 6-7 may not be a bad option (even if it depends on your potential neighbours), and will get you some more points for scales.
Same thing about the temp scale (neighbors and stuff).
Saving on dominion to get better scales can be a bit backwards, since without good dominion you won't spread those scales in the first place. It's a fine balance to be sure, but treating dominion as nothing but sacred-troops-per-turn-stat might not be the best way to go about it, if I'm reading you correctly.
I don't know how well (or badly) minor misfortune and drain combine, but I would generally advice at least misfortune-1 if you take order-3. Anecdotal as it is, I've never had a devastating event with O3M1 setup. But seeing how you're Man and can take freebie drain, you might not need the points (or want to risk misfortune & drain).
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2014, 04:30:43 pm
Personally, I'd be recommending high (over 5-7) starting dominion if and only if you expect early game issues or a later inability to keep your temples intact. Otherwise, put those points into scales and build temples. Then you get better scales and high dom and delicious dominion push and more places to recruit priests or whatever. As opposed to just high dom and less delicious dominion push.
Post by: E. Albright on September 05, 2014, 04:37:23 pm
I don't know how well (or badly) minor misfortune and drain combine, but I would generally advice at least misfortune-1 if you take order-3. Anecdotal as it is, I've never had a devastating event with O3M1 setup. But seeing how you're Man and can take freebie drain, you might not need the points (or want to risk misfortune & drain).
I don't think Mis-1 is by itself going to get you the worst Drain events. In fact, IIRC, the worst Drain events require Drain 3. However, I'd be very wary of assertions that taking Order means you should take Mis. Higher Order makes Mis less painful, and thus makes it more viable to take, but there are some pretty nice Order events (most notably, free forts) that you'll rarely see if you rotely combine the two.
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2014, 05:26:13 pm
Part of me half wants to start an MP game of it, just so llamaserver can process the turns instead of me :P
Humans on all ends would just get ridiculous, though, at least if they're all intent on the obvious
Still. Fun to watch an entire battlefield not-so-slowly filled up with insects. Or elementals. Or undead. Like. Not metaphorically, either. Bugs scragging everywhere. S'great. Just painfully slow.
Post by: Karlito on September 05, 2014, 05:53:16 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2014, 06:01:36 pm
Though, more accurately, no spells cost fatigue to cast, which is part of what makes the combat ridiculous. Dunno if the mod functionality has decoupled fatigue from gem cost since I made the mod, but it wasn't when I did. So I just set most everything's fatigue to 1 and called it a day.
... but yes, no spells cost gems to cast. Mostly. Items still cost gems, to the extent that matters when you're no longer burning gems on rituals and combat magic and can blanket the entire map with akashic knowledge. And summon geometrically growing amounts of sea/troll kings. Well... gold's an issue, with those, but eh.
Post by: E. Albright on September 05, 2014, 06:29:08 pm
It seems like free items wouldn't be that bad. Debug Mod already does #selectitem on every item, so just do a mass find-and-replace to set costs to nothing - or if you can't, to level 1. Although at that point, gems have been reduced to nothing but alchemy...
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2014, 06:33:49 pm
And I guess they'd still have that combat use where you burn excess? Can't that increase power or somethin'? Been a while since I checked the mechanics on that.
But yeah, doing that mass change is... it's annoying. And somewhat fiddly. And more effort than it was worth, at least for me. If someone else wants to crib down debug mod or somethin', I'd be cool with it. Be nice if you could decouple gem cost and forging paths, though.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 07, 2014, 02:43:22 am
Would there any interest in a nationgen game in late '14/early '15? I'm not sure how many players here are into that sort of thing, so I'd be fine with just 4, but 6-8 would be nice. Not too big. I've never played one myself, but it sounds like an amusing proposition. If there's interest I'd be up for it sooner but it'd have to be suitably casual so I don't have to play it at the expense of the "serious" games I have on the background.
So yeah, just throwing this out there.
Post by: tompliss on September 07, 2014, 03:55:54 am
Using the "modmod" nationgen to generate 4 nations and have them assigned randomly to 4 players ?
I've tested nationgen a bit, a few months ago, and the nations didn't seem always balanced...
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 07, 2014, 03:58:17 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 07, 2014, 08:26:24 am
Post by: tompliss on September 07, 2014, 08:29:43 am
Post by: Karlito on September 07, 2014, 12:09:22 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 07, 2014, 02:30:45 pm
As of 0.5, NG spawns "generic" humans, "Asian" humans, "African" humans, Abysians, Caelians, terrestrial Atlantians, Agarthans, Fomorians, Vanir, Tuatha, lizards, apes, and of course hoburgs, in case anyone hasn't been keeping up. They'll do random heros for the nations too, hehehe.
The big thing with an NG game would be that we'd be on the honor system on how to fairly (or if you prefer, reasonably) generate nations - in principle most methods we could propose are subject to abuse. I think the last game required everyone to submit a nation generated from a 10-nation seed, but that may have been it. With the current version, you can make the engine assemble a disparate mass of individual nation seeds, so that's a bit less work for whoever's admin'ing (NOT IT!).
Post by: tompliss on September 07, 2014, 03:57:27 pm
when it generate nations, it uses the IDs that are un-used normally.
If we each generate our nation on our side, we may have the same IDs and bug between them, right ?
So an admin uses the Jar to generate 10-20 nations on his side, sends the file(s) to everyone, and then we choose directly from them ?
Post by: E. Albright on September 07, 2014, 04:26:37 pm
Post by: tompliss on September 07, 2014, 04:31:31 pm
Post by: Elfeater on September 07, 2014, 10:37:11 pm
Post by: tompliss on September 08, 2014, 01:35:41 am
Most of us use the llamaserver (http://www.llamaserver.net/) to play, because it automatically sends Emails with the turn file to the players, so everybody can play when they want without staying online for a dozen hours.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 08, 2014, 06:08:27 am
So most people play and have played for years PBEM style with llamaserver instead of using direct connect servers. It's a minor hassle to download and upload turns, but it's not like there's a reliable DC server and server manager in any of the dominions communities I frequent.
Post by: Biowraith on September 08, 2014, 02:22:19 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 08, 2014, 02:35:44 pm
You know what, I'd definitely play something like that. It sounds rather interesting and fun, if a little bit clunky to see what units/commanders the other nations have. So... Sign me up?
I just thought of this, but Dom4 Mod Inspector can, perhaps unsurprisingly, be used to inspect mods. In the upper left corner you should see a [load mods] button. From there you can presumably load up any mods you have on your hard drive. In the event that we play a nationgen match, everyone would have access to the joint mod that encompasses all our nations, so checking them out shouldn't be any more difficult than it is currently if you use the Inspector for most of your needs.
Link (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 08, 2014, 02:48:15 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 08, 2014, 03:16:45 pm
Post by: Elfeater on September 08, 2014, 10:03:46 pm
Post by: Karlito on September 09, 2014, 08:53:26 am
A friend and I want to play together, and since we would be skyping and the like, we would want to have a direct connect.
Well like Delta says above, that's pretty straightforward to set up. You need to open a second instance of Dominions on your machine to run the server, and then as long as you can handle the port forwarding, it's pretty easy.
Post by: tompliss on September 10, 2014, 01:19:33 am
I did a few tests yesterday with nationgen and ended with some weird combinations : Hoburgs with some mounted ones on giant flying bats, sacred units that have a fire-elemental dying shape, a nation with both atlantians and abysian, for maximum temperature play, mages that can polymorph in size5 crabs, ...
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 10, 2014, 07:23:36 am
Post by: Mindmaker on September 15, 2014, 04:16:01 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 15, 2014, 04:29:27 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on September 15, 2014, 04:48:46 pm
I guess I could swap some scales around and get it to 1. Or I could use this situation to see how bad higher amounts of misfortune really are.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 15, 2014, 04:53:29 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 15, 2014, 05:09:04 pm
I could definitely play that and be happy.
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2014, 05:20:23 pm
I'd personally consider the dom a little high for someone without major blessings, too, but that's a to-taste thing. Dropping a point or two from dominion and either picking up the minor N bless or cutting out some misfortune would be more to my own taste. Having dominion high just for the dominion spread always feels a little wasteful. Your sacreds are still pretty decent if you're intending to use 'em, though, even if the blessing isn't going to do terrible much for 'em, so if you were intending to mass up chosen it would be helpful-ish. "Massing" the sirrush would both be financially ruinous and a hideous waste without a stronger bless, imo -- N9, at the very least. That much gold per critter and you can't let it be something that's going to go down relatively easy.
Only other potential worry I'd have is what you'd be getting out of its paths -- Ur looks like it already has pretty decent E/N access,** and you've got the casters to manage most of the low-tier air battle spells as well... 4A for boosters is actually a pretty good idea (then you could have a mass of 3A casters, for happy fun zappy time), but I'd arguably want to swap that N out for blood (which would entail a chassis switch, iirc, but blood stones***) or somethin'. And now I notice the main point of the 4A/E -- I keep forgetting the staves are a thing.
As for SC potential, I'd almost suggest taking the Annuki of the Morning Star, instead, with basically the same paths except 3S instead of 3N -- despite the lack of innate awe (which is kinda' meh -- plenty of stuff ignores awe in D4), she's arguably more SC-capable (has boot slot and already flies) and while the S would leave her vulnerable to duals, the lack of S leaves your entire nation vulnerable to Mind Hunt -- and let me tell you, a decent mind hunt assault on your capital or something else important would leave you in metaphorical tears, heh. That would depend on your opponents, though... if you've got a high S nation in the fight with you, I'd almost certainly suggest a pretender with at-least S3, to keep the mind hunts away. Otherwise, more flexibility in what can be built. E: Morning Star would actually let you squeak in a minor astral bless, with the exact same dominion and scales.
*Oh hey, your throne castle under siege just had its lab go up in flames. You can't bring in more supply items. Or summon things to shore up the walls. Welp :V Sure, there's no guarantee something like that will happen, but you know what they say about murphy...
**Actually tops out at 4 or 5, on rare shaman, with around a 1/3rd chance of a 3E or 4N -- guaranteed 3N, which makes the 3N on your pretender somewhat of a waste of points. Would be like taking 3S on a MA R'yleh pretender, which you probably don't want to do.
***And the ability to basically make your every E random shaman an E5 caster. E6, if you grab up the staves of elemental mastery as well. You can do nasty things with a handful of E6 casters >_>
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 15, 2014, 05:31:08 pm
Can't really give specific pointers as I've never properly played Ur.
Neither can I, though Ur is a pretty straightforward nation. Sal-Mes are your researchers, Ensis are your generals, recruit anywhere units are crap, apply buffs everywhere and season liberally with Shamans. Ur is a bit like Pangea on the battlefield, in that you have strong Earth/Nature magic and so you want to buff your units like crazy and let them do most of the damage. And I guess they're like Pan off the battlefield too, except for the fact that they lack seducers and their recruit anywhere units are terrible and/or overpriced. Except perhaps the Hunters, which could be good ranged units with Giant's Strength + Wind Guide. Highly accurate javelins with acceptable range and great damage sounds deadly to me.
"Massing" the sirrush would both be financially ruinous and a hideous waste without a stronger bless, imo -- N9, at the very least. That much gold per critter and you can't let it be something that's going to go down relatively easy.
If I remember correctly, you can only recruit one Sirrush every two turns. Which is for a size-6 unit with 80 HP, 15 Protection and 9 defense and no trample. If Sirrushes could trample I'd probably consider them, simply because sacred tramplers sounds pretty damn deadly. But for a horribly expensive unit that's
(which would entail a chassis switch, iirc, but blood stones***)
Damn straight. My only regret playing Ur was having 2 Slave Markets (6 free blood slaves a turn) and the game ending before I could forge Blood Stones. I got as far as empowering a lucky D-random Shaman, and then Oceania blitzed enough thrones to the game. This was all completely by accident, by the way, which made it all the more aggravating.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 16, 2014, 03:10:09 am
Quote
Misfortune 2I can go with Misfortune one, but I took it because your research as Ur isn't very good (your researchers aren't great, your fortresses are very expensive and slow to build) and that for a nation that can use a lot of spells across all schools.
Although Magic 1 will probably don't change that.
Quote
high DominionI've got two high scales and spreading dominion into the territory of a conquered players takes forever.
Quote
magic pathsFor Staves, boosters and the minor blesses.
Quote
Annuki of the Morning StarThis was actually my original pretender, but I dropped him due to point issues (which I found a solution for right now). While S5 gives you a good shot for boosters and mid to lategame rituals, I'm not sure how much you'll be able to use those, considering you have no native S income.
Also while Awe is pretty good, Boots of Quickness might be even better.
Quote
recruit anywhere units are crapThe longbows are quite nice.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 16, 2014, 07:05:00 am
Got the following interaction event as LA Man in a PBEM:
Quote
It is rumored that the Old Ways have not left this land.I assume I have to patrol that province with a Magister Arcane.
Anybody knows what the outcome is? Do I have to expect attacks or assassination attempts related to it?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 16, 2014, 07:12:31 am
The longbows are quite nice.
They're 17 gold each, take 7 resources to recruit and can only be gotten in places without forts so they are really hard to amass. Which is to say that they're total crap, but I'd probably use indie archers instead. They do use shortbows, but they're cheaper and easier to amass, which is critical for a ranged unit.
(your researchers aren't great, your fortresses are very expensive and slow to build)
Pretty much. Though Sal-Mes are surprisingly cheap for what they are. 100 gold for giant priest-mages is not expensive at all and would make some other nations jealous, though getting enough fortresses to capitalize on that is going to be rather hard.
-snip-
Never got that event before, sorry. Partly because I never played Man before, and partly because story events always seem so damned rare.
Post by: Culise on September 16, 2014, 10:16:34 am
Sorry for the doublepost, but it's somewhat urgent.I think I got that event once; if I recall, I personally got a new commander (no spoiler) out of it, but I think there were penalties up to and including an attack if you roll badly enough on the event, the chances of which are also affected by not sending the prompted commanders (e.g., send a magister of theology or some other kid instead of a full magister arcane, or send nothing at all).
Got the following interaction event as LA Man in a PBEM:QuoteIt is rumored that the Old Ways have not left this land.I assume I have to patrol that province with a Magister Arcane.
Anybody knows what the outcome is? Do I have to expect attacks or assassination attempts related to it?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 22, 2014, 05:42:00 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 22, 2014, 05:48:54 am
I could make the thread some time today unless people jump the gun and get a new disciple thing going.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 22, 2014, 06:03:49 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 22, 2014, 06:13:04 am
I'd like to put the thread up in any case, unless someone else fancies the fabled ivory tower that is to admin a Dom game :P
I'll be generating some nations in the meanwhile.
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2014, 06:58:48 am
OTOH, if anyone just wants to add a bunch more naming data and roughly-finished-but-not-to-the-standard-I-actually-wanted Amazons, that's all straightforward data modding and I could throw that at everyone immediately since it's done. Or "done", anyway; everything else I wanted to do with it needed code changes. But as long as everyone is using the same data set, and the same .jar, seeds will all be compatible.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 22, 2014, 07:09:33 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 22, 2014, 07:19:57 am
I... wouldn't mind setting up the thread for the nationgen game. It's mostly just copying junk from the other Doms threads, adding in info on Nationgen, and setting up the game on llamaserver, correct? Plus I think that the names/descriptions that nationgen generates are junk, so if I was admin I could always edit in something more sensical before I distribute the mod...
Sorry, way ahead of you. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144007.0) But you can be a co-admin if you like watching people's turn submissions.
Anyone who expressed interest, please go to the linked thread and confirm your interest or disinterest in some nationgen MP shenanigans.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 23, 2014, 08:53:27 am
Quote
Traces of the Old Magic has emerged in a remote village. A young girl has the Witches Mark upon her! Perhaps it would be wise to send a Magister of Theology, lest her power grows, or perhaps one of the Arcane to find out more.and had a Magister Arcane Search, Patrol and Wait in that province for 6 turns with no results.
Post by: E. Albright on September 23, 2014, 09:10:30 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 23, 2014, 10:22:07 am
I really enjoyed dom3 and bought it, but dom4 is still 25 € for... the same thing? What else is new besides some interface changes?
Post by: tompliss on September 23, 2014, 10:37:41 am
Things things things ! :D
Post by: Neonivek on September 23, 2014, 10:45:09 am
1) You can play a character on the same nation as another.
and
2) The game has a method to win the game... without needing everyone to surrender.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 23, 2014, 10:54:41 am
Post by: Bluerobin on September 23, 2014, 11:03:08 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 23, 2014, 11:23:01 am
Mind you, my Dom 3 experience has entirely been limited to reading a few LPs, so take the above with a grain of salt. Then again, those LPs had them spending gems like it was nothing in the late game, while I've never seen anybody do that in the Dom 4 games I've participated in.
Post by: Frumple on September 23, 2014, 11:28:13 am
That seems nice - is MP still dominated by SC? Anything op? Might pay up just to be in another mp game with ya all.SCs are still very prevalent in MP, from what I've seen, but there's been quite a few changes that seriously curtail their power. The luck change* alone was enough to do serious damage to SC staying power, heh. Number of other small changes like that make SC critters considerably easier to counter. Still quite powerful, as is appropriate for the resource investment involved, but now more a tool instead of the tool.
Honestly, balance in general... seems a bit better than in D3? I haven't really played either, especially in multiplayer, enough to say that with any degree of surety, but it feels that way.
Incidentally, you might want to chill and wait for another sale (and yes, there's been sales! It's amazing.) if the cost is worrisome.
Though re: temporary gems, I think those might have actually increased SC -- and almost definitely battlecaster -- power. Gemgens were sexy, but they were a logistic bottleneck and generally too expensive to have out in the field. Temp gem items in D4 are usually pretty cheap, and handing out a handful to make sure you have battlefield-wide spells going off in each and every battle is damned amazing.
*Is now a 75% chance to survive a killing blow, and doesn't work on undead or lifeless critters at all -- tartarians can get buggered :P
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 23, 2014, 11:40:44 am
That being said, I do love the temporary gem creating items in Dom 4. For exactly the same reasons that you put out. Except for Bloodstones/Bags of Wind. Those things can just fuck right off with how expensive and hard to get they are.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 23, 2014, 11:53:51 am
Reports suggest this event chain is broken in the current version, though they're not 100% consistent.Well that sucks, I really could have used that N2 mage you get.
I'll see if I can somehow get around it by moving the magister in and out.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 23, 2014, 02:43:15 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 23, 2014, 03:31:51 pm
I'm looking to buy Dom 4 if it's an overall improvement over Dom 3. What do you guys think? :)
It's not a revolutionary improvement. It's an evolutionary one. It's probably along the lines of Dom1->Dom2 in terms of scope. A lot of UI improvements, rule refinements and rebalancings, new mechanics (e.g. thrones, revamped fortresses, non-fortress recruitment for certain nations, poptype-based PD, etc. etc.), improved modding functionality, a number of new nations (EA Phoneticians and Babylonians, EA Machaka, MA Bogarus, Carrion Woods/Soulgate as freestanding nations, Oceania split in two), some new pretenders, a lot of enrichment to underground and underwater play (e.g., new native poptypes and summons, aquatic PD for non-aquatic nations), updated graphics for a lot of old units... It's mostly (mostly) small changes, but it's a lot of small changes. I'd say it's worth it.
[Edit: oh, and some under-the-hood changes too. I think it's able to host a bit fast, and the AI is more efficient. Not smarter, but more efficient - and an additional difficulty level was added. So while an experienced player will still feast on its bones, a novice-to-middling player will have a noticeably harder time winning.)
I remember, a long time ago in a galaxy far away, I've installed Dom 3 and have decided that it is one of the only games that will never, ever be wiped from my harddrive for any reason whatsoever.
That promise has been broken, because of Dom 4. Get it.
Can't say anything myself, while I did lurk a lot of Dom3 stuff in my day, it never amounted to actually playing the game.
____
The Disciples game type is, I believe, new in Dominions 4 too. That's basically a game with teams where one person on each team is the pretender and the rest are disciples. Each player has their own nation and avatar guy, but only the pretenders choose scales and when they awaken (disciples awaken one tick sooner than their pretender in the awaken-time-chooser).
That's actually been changed in a recent patch I think. Disciples wake up in half the time their pretender does. So a dormant pretender will have turn-6 disciples, instead of turn-1.
Post by: E. Albright on September 23, 2014, 06:11:35 pm
Unmodded balance is a lot better, to the point where there hasn't been a dominant "balance mod" in the community yet, and the once-ubiquitous "OMG we need a Dom4 CBM right miaow!" crowd has faded into obscurity. As that might also imply, since CBM was as much a diversity mod as a rebalancing mod, unmodded diversity is a lot better too.
It's not Dom2->Dom3 all over again. It's Dom1->Dom2*.
*Only unlike Dom1->Dom2, the UI got better-looking and less clunky and not worse.
Post by: Frumple on September 23, 2014, 06:19:55 pm
Post by: Karlito on September 23, 2014, 06:23:37 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 24, 2014, 12:49:27 pm
One of the few things that bugged me about dom3 is the power escalation and the attached massive micromanagement, especially if you did bloodslave hunting and all that.
I'll grab it when there's a sale or maybe next month.
Post by: Frumple on September 24, 2014, 01:07:10 pm
Is actually one of those points where disciple mode kinda' shines -- instead of one person controlling a massive, map wide empire, you've got that same space split up between multiple people. Means there's not quite as much micro on any one person playing, which is pretty darn nice.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 24, 2014, 01:08:13 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 24, 2014, 01:13:22 pm
As C'tis (and EA, from the 4.04 game that just recently finished) can testify, an assassin with death is kinda' ridiculous. Skelliespam vs. off script anything has an entirely too good of a chance of wrecking face.
Gets even better if you can get some N casters and the handful of acorns. Any critter-producing item, really. Also probably couldn't hurt to stick a spirit helm on 'em, if you have some to spare.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 24, 2014, 01:23:50 pm
But on the other hand I'm not sure if they are worth it, considering they alone cost 25 gems.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 24, 2014, 01:28:49 pm
As C'tis (and EA, from the 4.04 game that just recently finished) can testify, an assassin with death is kinda' ridiculous. Skelliespam vs. off script anything has an entirely too good of a chance of wrecking face.Testify, yo.
The experience I had so far with assassins+skellie amulet is that giving bodyguards is nearly pointless, even if these are high quality units. They'll lose all the same, unless the target is a mage that can spam skellies of their own.
Get a bunch, wait for one of your forts to get sieged, and you can go all hitman on the besiegers with nigh impunity. Hell, even in open field catching scouts is hard, and it entails sacrificing movement for patrol duties.
In my opinion, this is way too overpowered for the meager price of setting it up. That is, if you've got cheap assassins. Bean Sidhes are a bit too much on the expensive side.
Post by: E. Albright on September 24, 2014, 05:39:33 pm
Basically, assassination is a really hard-to-balance mechanic. Currently, though, as long as a nation has assassins, D1, 5 amethysts per assassin, and Cons-0, they can create generally-lethal assassins.
(Obviously, one of the worst items to see on assassins is Lifelong Protection. I never fielded any of those in 404, but I was preparing to start cranking them out at the end to try to crack some of the tougher, elemental-summoning Ulmish nuts. I was butchering pretty much everything with just Amulets of the Dead, though. I think the worst example I saw was one of Il Palazzo's Mystics with a couple of hoplites (possible elite ones) and an elephant that the Mystic managed to make ethereal. They still lost. In the majority of cases, if you can't counter-summon, it's a foregone conclusion before the assassination starts.)
Post by: E. Albright on September 24, 2014, 05:46:30 pm
One of the few things that bugged me about dom3 is the power escalation and the attached massive micromanagement, especially if you did bloodslave hunting and all that.
Bloodslaves hunted in a lab province now automatically dump into the lab, and for non-lab provinces, either the most recent patch or the one about to come out added a keyboard shortcut to dump all bloodslaves in a province onto the currently-selected unit.
Also, the tax slider is gone, so you have no more tax-vs-unrest mirco, whether you liked it or not.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 26, 2014, 08:45:49 am
I might join in the next big game, maybe I can slip past the cracks or find a nation that is really good at not dieing.
Oh and what decides "who goes" first into a army? Often I'd invest heavly into attacking a army... and it just left the moment before i could strike.
Post by: lijacote on September 26, 2014, 09:08:40 am
I got the game and found that to be very nice - also read some of the Dom4 threads in play with your buddys, which are quite intimidating - i'm struggling against well.. normal AI, still trying to get into it (again) - not that I ever was very good.Movement of the same kind is simultaneous. The first "movement" that happens are rituals and sneak attacks happening in the province that is already snuck into. After that you have movement into friendly provinces, and after that you have movement into hostile provinces. The final movements are broken sieges and stormed forts. If you want to catch someone moving into friendly territory, you have to use rituals or sneaks. If you want to catch someone moving into hostile territory, you have to anticipate where they are going and catch them there.
I might join in the next big game, maybe I can slip past the cracks or find a nation that is really good at not dieing.
Oh and what decides "who goes" first into a army? Often I'd invest heavly into attacking a army... and it just left the moment before i could strike.
If armies are somehow contradicting each other with their movements, then the larger army tends to win, or push through.
A more detailed and helpful breakdown of movement can be found in the manual, on page 69, and the specific sequence of the turn is found on page 77.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 26, 2014, 01:17:20 pm
You do want to get some basic grasp of one or two nations in SP and basic game concepts though. I started my first MP with a week or so of SP playing. It wasn't pretty. Could have used a month or so learning the basics much better.
You can wait for the next Bay12 match, a few of the games seem to be dying down so there might be another one or two coming up before the end of the year. Alternatively there's a lot of games going on on desura, where the official general and MP forums are. One potential problem with getting a game here is that games tend towards mixed skill games, that is there might be a newbie or two, some who are better than that, and perhaps a few who could even be described as better still. On desura you just join or start a newbie game and it usually gets filled with equally skill'less players fairly fast, which makes for a fairer game.
That said, there's plenty of people still learning the game here so I wouldn't be surprised if you were able to make a newbie-ish game here. You can of course just join a mixed game, that's what I did and I play fairly well nowadays, but I do feel that the ideal way to get your MP feet wet is a newbie game.
Post by: Frumple on September 26, 2014, 01:30:15 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 26, 2014, 04:31:35 pm
The manual is also very useful as a reference on the game rules (such as turn order and combat calculations, when you feel ready to look into those in more detail) - although some rules may have changed in patches. http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/ is also good for looking up items, spells, units/commanders, etc, seeing the requirements for them, what units and unique spells each nation has, and so on.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 27, 2014, 03:53:47 am
I would tend to try one of the gimmiky nations, like the new "ghost emror", since there isn't that much you can do wrong.
(Except... do I spam lvl1 priests to summon spam for ghosts or do I try to go for max research or send combat mages with every army?)
Mhmm so you can have more then 2 Teams? Suggests itself for a buddy programm or "scrubs team up, pros duke it out alone" game with intresting teams.
Mhmm, apperently the "Send Horror" spell has some serious issues, since its always 2 Horrors and ... well, they fight each other, instead of the enemy about 4 out of 5 times. I assume thats intended, since one should really horror mark a enemy and then send the horrors?
Post by: E. Albright on September 27, 2014, 04:08:25 am
(Don't get me wrong, I wanna like Lemuria, but every time I try I just can't stand it and quit.)
Post by: chaoticag on September 27, 2014, 05:30:36 am
I haven't tried them, but I'm guessing their death/astral. Not a bad combination. But, well, your pretender would need to fill a decent amount of holes for them.
Post by: Frumple on September 27, 2014, 05:54:28 am
As for the reanimation chaff, the closest thing to a trick with them is "Go underwater". Amusingly, the UW shadow soldiers are marginally stronger than the land ones.
Arguably, the real idea is to play lemuria as a disciple, alongside one of the forgier nations (and a god that probably goes a simple N/minor E bless -- it's all the consuls really need, though more helps. Actually, they almost don't need a bless at all but... it helps.), and basically do nothing but produce consuls for the other nations to equip. Use the whole no-domkill thing to nab up indie mages for research and eventually your own kitting and fill the world with immortal, self-blessing, discounted wraith lords. Just... think on that for a little while. Eventually you might translate into using those immortal battlemages alongside the immortal consuls and make any attack into your team's dominion just the most absolutely goddamn miserable thing ever.
E: And yeah, they're astral/death. Tops out at 3S or 4D on 1/4th of the grand lemurs, which are entirely too freaking expensive but 1/4th of them are teleporting immortals right out the gate. So, y'know, you can do things with that. They're also stealthy H3 units, which... you can do things with, since your basically everything (well, everything reanimated, and that's going to be quite a lot after a while) in regards to chaff is also stealthy. It's one thing to not be worried about lemur's chaff because you've got priests or whatever, it's another for 2-300 of them backed by a pretty killer battlemage to just randomly show up anywhere in your nation while you're desperately trying to stave off the infinite march of the consuls.
E3: Really, it's just kinda'... okay, pop quiz. Turn 3, lemuria gets their first consul. Every other turn thereafter, another appears. It's turn 15. There's a half dozen might-as-well-be-wraith-lords rampaging towards your nation. What do you do?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 27, 2014, 06:59:08 am
But what if I'm a dimwit who took dom7 against Lemuria and has no S/D magic? Yeah, that could hurt. And either way, actually taking the fight back to them would be just as atrocious as fighting Ermor ever is.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 27, 2014, 07:19:13 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The work really well with a major water bless.
What do you think? Worth building a pretender around it?
Post by: E. Albright on September 27, 2014, 07:29:01 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 27, 2014, 07:36:57 am
(Tri, maybe even quad, though iirc a quad would put off your first consul a handful of turns due to needing to empower something) bless and put those guys out more or less every chance you get.
The big reason not to go quad isn't the delay on getting a consul out (though you are delayed), it's that you have to tank your dominion and have an imprisoned pretender. On a reasonably large map against the AI you can get away with it - indeed, it may work to your advantage since you can outrun your domrot - but it'd be suicide in MP, or possibly just on a smaller map.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 27, 2014, 07:41:05 am
The nation also includes:
Recruit anywhere 80g 1E1A1B with 11 research, which will be my main bloodhunter/researcher.
Recruit anywhere 2A2B, which will be sending Doom Horrors once Astral Corruption is up.
Cap only 2B with the following randoms:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: E. Albright on September 27, 2014, 07:48:22 am
I'd say the apes are viable for a bless strategy. They're shy on defensive skills, though - a Water bless is only going to make them passable, not good. They'll crumple in the face of strong resistance.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 27, 2014, 07:52:43 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 27, 2014, 08:05:11 am
You still have the makings of good mages even if you can't do a game-breaking ploy like endless Doom Horrors (and it's not clear how toned down it's gonna be, though I wanna say they said at least half the chance to see them). You've got excellent research efficiency and good communion potential out of the E1S1B1s, and S2B2 has all kinds of fun potential too. Your cap mages would make good communion leaders for assorted earth and astral (and Gift-spewing earth-and-astral, hehehe) combat shenanigans, and as you said, you have some Demon Knight potential if you wanna go down that path.
Post by: Mindmaker on September 27, 2014, 08:36:33 am
The latter ones could work very well, once you have buffs like wodden warriors, legions of steel etc.
In case I don't go the bless route, I'm a bit unsure about pretender design.
I could take good scales (Growth, Order, some production), get some points out of bad scales (temp, luck, magic), but that leaves me with magic paths.
I've been considering taking those which would get me the few multipath bloodsummons, since blood is easy to empower.
I'm not sure if Father Illearth and Ice Devils are woth it (not couting Arch Devils, since they can be summoned by Heliophagi).
Not really sure about boosters either, since they are able to craft most of them by themselves, even if it requires some lucky randoms. I guess I could take high S for Rings of Wizardry or Sorcery. which would help with that a lot.
Post by: chaoticag on September 27, 2014, 09:18:08 am
[all the good stuff Frumple said]You know, this is why I like dominions. It's vast and wide enough to hear about hilariously odd and offbeat strategies when I post something stupid, so thanks for that Frumple. They still seem trap like for their freespawn, but a player that early might not take into consideration army composition juuuust yet anyway.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 27, 2014, 10:30:08 am
*edit* While looking over screenshots it became clear that only cat horrors fight themselves, only had like 10 samples thou.
http://i.imgur.com/bRmYLtI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/inIq8Ao.jpg
Post by: Mindmaker on September 28, 2014, 05:48:04 pm
In my nationgen game I have as previously mentioned cheap (80g) bloodhunters, which are also great at research (11RP +2 from magic scales).
Thing is, I don't know if I should rush my blood economy at the cost of research, or the other way round, since I have little experience with blood nations.
Also I wonder if rushing Construction 4 for SDWs would be a wise thing. I guess I could go for master/slave spells first and research up to earth meld at least.
Problem is that my national mages aren't that great at learly combat (mainly astral and blood, although my bloodhunters have E, which would at least let them communion some useful stuff) and my nature/earth access is mostly restricted to StR cap-only mages.
Thankfully at least my national troops are pretty good, so I should come out ahead in regular fights, unless somebody is fielding crazy sacreds.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 28, 2014, 07:18:22 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 29, 2014, 06:22:15 am
Post by: Mindmaker on September 29, 2014, 06:53:34 am
Post by: Majestic7 on September 29, 2014, 07:23:34 am
So yeah, in the hands of a competitive player, blood economy can overpower gem economies in games with low site frequency quite easily. Only bad sides are the requirement for more infrastructure than gem economies. Fighting against such economy requires, in turn, heavy use of decent raiders. Especially so since the blood income is not tied to the ownership of specific provinces like gem income often is.
All this in regards to multiplayer, of course.
Post by: Jacob/Lee on September 29, 2014, 09:04:41 pm
I'm currently playing LA Pangaea and expanding fairly well, but a massive pain in the ass right now is the war elephant stampedes from a neighbor. The "best" losses I've suffered so far is twelve or so Grove Guards (elite minotaurs) being stomped while fighting five elephants and killing only three.
Also: How do magic sites work? Is there a better way to find them other than searching all my provinces with a Pan?
Post by: E. Albright on September 29, 2014, 09:17:11 pm
A nice brief primer on the "informed manner" bit can be found here: http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/grigio87s-site-searcing-handbook. Mostly, if there's a province with odd scales and no events to explain them (press "i" on provinces you have at least scout-level intel on to see the province event history), there's probably a site causing them.
Post by: Karlito on September 29, 2014, 09:24:57 pm
I'd also think that grove guards wouldn't have too much trouble with them, since steady troops with high damage attacks can often weather the initial elephant assault and then chop them into pieces, but I guess their defense is too low to avoid being trampled, and you can't really afford to lose any at all. However, your best unit is actually the Dryad Hoplite, even if your bless is weak you'll probably be better off recruiting as many of them you can over the Grove Guards: their awe will shut down elephants and most other melee threats. Other options might be a suicide squad of Stymphaligian Birds set to attack "Large Enemy Monsters" the first turn, or enough bowmen (you national crossbow dude is pretty great) scripted to shoot at them.
If you have construction research, a few Cataphract commanders equipped with Rat Tails will probably also be able to hold off elephants and cause them to route (which is actually better than straight killing them, since they'll often trample their allies on the way out).
EDIT: Awesome of Albright to ninja my post with the answer to the other question.
Post by: Frumple on September 29, 2014, 09:54:16 pm
If you can get in range, anyway, which becomes much easier when they're coming right at you. Dryads on tune duty is pretty useful in general for LA Pan, methinks, if you can get a handle on scripting them right.
Could also nab alt 2, bring along a pan and some minotaurs, and enlarge some critters up to no-sell trample size. Pan on panic duty would probably straight-up negate 'em, too -- if you've got const-4 and a D random pan, you could just forge up some skull standards and stick 'em on whatever, as well. That's one of your better things to be doing with non-caster commanders regardless, heh.
Really, anything in general that hits elephants in the morale is a good way to just make them go away. With rare exceptions, their morale is just kinda' terrible, plus when they rout they wreck the enemy as well. S'good stuff.
Post by: tompliss on October 02, 2014, 03:37:58 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on October 02, 2014, 04:02:51 pm
Anyone here got experience with them?
Post by: Karlito on October 02, 2014, 04:06:27 pm
Post by: Mindmaker on October 02, 2014, 04:29:45 pm
Do I plant one (or more) carrion centaur in each province for reanimation? Or is it a waste of time and better left to your dominion effect?
Also pretender design. T3S3C3G3L3M3 leaves you with a lot of points, even if you take Dom 10 (which isn't that important with cheap temples).
People recommended me a W9 bless, which while effective doesn't seem that great in the bigger scheme of the game. They are cap only so you won't have big amounts of them. Also sooner or later the whole battlefield will be full of your own chaff, which means they whill be restricted in their mobility and use.
Astral might give you some good boosters, but that would require you to have an acively searching pretender, since you have no native income and they are gem intensive. Also endgame rituals.
I guess I could take an awake Dragon, although I haven't been much of a fan of combat pretenders.
Edit:
Hmm, maybe the Frost Dragon. Just need to take a look which of their paths has the best synergy with Asphodel.
Post by: Frumple on October 02, 2014, 05:10:25 pm
You start off with centaur(ides -- the short bow ones are marginally more precise, iirc) for the first few provinces, by which point you should have at least one reanimating c.centaur and more archers (and maybe some minotaurs, for trampling) ready to set out with whatever's been dom-summoned and awakened to screen for 'em -- that fairly simple combination of manikin chaff + archers + trampling shock troopers should carry you pretty far. Eventually you start bringing in your battle casters (and other stuff, like the possibility of a hoard of harpies with skeleton amulets) and doing sexy N/D stuff, on top of the whole SC-level carrion lords bouncing around and... whatever the indie situation or your pretender brings to the table. With a minor E bless and N's reinvig kit options, you've got a lot of room for a lot of spell spamming on the battlefield.
I honestly wouldn't aim much for a troop bless, myself -- while they do have a reanimated sacred, it's an archer and fairly rare and the black centaurs are firmly "meh" (the stealthy zerker calvary bit is alright, but they're kinda' expensive, hard to mass, and somewhat flimsy), plus you've got domkill and they eventually become sparse anyway. You do probably want a minor E bless, though -- most of your casters are sacred and capable of self-blessing, plus you'll probably have H3 casters along any major fights regardless. The simple N major/E minor works damn well for 'em, t'be honest -- it makes almost all their casters pretty beefy -- but any thug/SC blesses are going to do you pretty good so long as you've got that minor earth with it.
I probably wouldn't take T3, personally (T2, sure, but T3 brings about the worst events), and maybe not so much temperature, either. You're still going to want to spend a fair amount of gold -- dryads are your best researcher, and you're probably going to want to recruit plenty of pans for path diversity. Default pretender choices would be gorgon or great mother, if you're not after path diversity -- incredibly easy access to E/N globals would be nice, and getting your hands on mother oak and (hopefully) gift of health would be incredible force multipliers for Aspho. Otherwise you want some path diversity. Still at least the E minor, but possibly air for flight boots and some fire to pick up fire brands and awe/fire shield shields? Stuff like that, in any case -- something that can either summon stuff to kit out your commanders or do the forging itself.
... anyway, that's Frumple's $0.02 USD.
*Losing somewhat on the numbers game and lacking amphibious being caveated slightly by having a chance to get some pretty damn killer critters. The fact that they get more-or-less free behemoths is fairly amazing.
Post by: Mindmaker on October 02, 2014, 06:02:36 pm
Apparently corpses in provinces lets you animate humanoid manikins, which are better than the animal critter ones.
Not too much of a fan of the W5 Dragon?
I mean your pretender choices sound good as well, considering a lot of your caster are sacred (shame the Panic Apostates isn't).
Although I'd have to see how much I can do with their low-end spells.
T3 really isn't too bad in conjucntion with L3 and is one of the two most common combinations (O3M1 or T3L3). So I'd like to stick with it. Unless the domkill isn't that bad and you can get enough out of that scale to consider it. But in the long run you won't be recruiting that much national troops, right? Once you're only recruiting commanders it should work.
Dryads are the better researcher, even though their value for money is slightly worse. But I still think you may want to get some Hierophants early for their water and earth picks, so you can sitesearch and to save some money for troops/forts/stuff.
Extreme temp scales will bother other players as much as they will me (unless they prefer them) and the cold scales works well with a lot of the undead summons (even though mixed armies wouldn't work well due to the lack of cold resistance). This goes maily for casters, since the undead will just ignore fatigue.
But I have to play around with design points and pretender chasi some more, so I'll see what I can do.
Fire Brands aren't that important, considering your national mages can craft Water Brands and you have an easier time searching for water sites.
Post by: Frumple on October 02, 2014, 06:55:02 pm
Apparently corpses in provinces lets you animate humanoid manikins, which are better than the animal critter ones.Hnn... not really. Humanoid manikins are like your third worst manikin, after harpies and plain... wolves, or something like that. Both of your best manikins (bear, elephant) are animals, as are... well, all of your better ones but maybe the minotaurs, if you assume the centaurs are naturally omitted. The order of quality goes something like harpy->wolf carrion beast->plain manikin (humanoid)->boar carrion beast->satyr manikin (humanoid)->horse carrion beast->mandragora (humanoid?)->minotaur manikin (humanoid?)->bear carrion beast-> elephant carrion beast. And of the upper ranks, the mandragoras in particular are quite rare. You can do a lot worse than an aspho chaff blob made mostly from the better carrion beasts. The humanoid ones do tend to have somewhat better attack/defense scores, but it's fairly marginal and the animal one's greater HP/protection tends to (readily, if you've got access to H4 via prophet or booster) make up any difference on that front.
As for the water bless, I generally... well, personally, I don't really see the point to taking a water bless if you're not going major. Defense isn't a particularly sexy, well, defense stat. If I were going for an expanding pretender, I'd probably nab the gorgon or great white bull -- s'like I said, regardless of anything else you want at least that minor earth bless. Any nation with as many sacred casters as aspho has wants that minor earth bless, heh. Still, if you were going with that dragon, with the intent to bless your black centaurs, you'd probably want to go ahead and get W6 and completely offset the berserk penalty, heh. Though... do remember, if you can nab up at least S1 indies, which isn't terribly unlikely, you can start putting out shrouds for your pans. Good stuff, that, if you've got N/e.
As for the extreme temperatures... well, there's something to be said for that. I'd still almost want to go for heat instead of cold, strictly to deny enemy undead that extra boost (and make using your own in conjunction with your unresistant chaff horde less painful), but particularly if you take the currently incessantly hammered upon minor earth bless, it wouldn't be that terrible for your more prolific battlecasters, as well. I guess it depends mostly on what other nations are in the game with you -- if you can handle going extreme either way, might as well pick the one that's going to cause the most annoyance for the most people.
Incidentally, your main battlefield casters are probably going to be living dryads (hag or otherwise) and panic apostles -- carrion lords and ladies are honestly too expensive to use en masse, so you'll be leaning on your recruitables for on-the-ground force projection. The carrion ladies are actually kinda' total junk (better two centaurs than one lady, >95% of the time) and I would probably never recommend summoning them, honestly, whereas the lords are SC-chassis and heavy battlecasters/mass manikin buffers -- specialists, instead of something you're going to have tons of. And your other casters are all recruit-anywhere, which means if you can mumble up the gold you can have an unholy bucketload of them, especially if you're not spending (much) money on supporting actual troops.
As for the F/E divergence, remember if you can get fire brands (which would be nice strictly to give you diversity, and make it so the enemy can't just casually slip on cold res and ignore your thugs) you can probably manage charcoal and gleaming gold shields as well, and both of those are somewhat deliciously brutal. It's nice to have the option, makes you somewhat harder to counter.
... also I'm totally kinda' rambly, so anyone with better ways of putting any of that are terribly welcome to join in. Ruddy painkillers.
Post by: Mindmaker on October 02, 2014, 07:16:53 pm
Well the W5 wouldn't be for the bless effect, but for some magic diversity and eventually rituals. It's better than F5, N5 is redundant and the Carrion Dragon with N/D even more so.
May test the Gorgon since Awe3 + Petrification sounds pretty good. Could work as an awake expander.
I guess H3 is better, you're correct.
Edit:
Gorgon dies too easily.
Great Bull is too expensive, due to low starting dom and low earth.
Cyclops with dom 10 and E6 is suprisingly good. Can take on about anything. Won't even accumulate afflictions if you use him wisely. Beat 2 heavy cavalry provinces without afflictions and got his first one on the third one. If you got for weaker ones there shouldn't be a scratch on him by the time you finish expanding.
And he makes for a great midgame SC.
Post by: Karlito on October 02, 2014, 10:12:30 pm
Gorgon dies too easily.
Yeah, in 4.04 we found that she needs some gear before she's ready to go out stomping indies on her own. It should be something you can put together in the first 5 or 6 turns if you plan for it.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 03, 2014, 07:29:18 pm
My experience is with pangaea, but asphodel has mostly similar roster. I don't think you really need an expansion pretender (of course it never hurts), centaurs (both warrior and sacred) and basic satyrs are quite good expanders. My gut says you want to aim for midgame power/diversity, rather than sink points on an early expander god.
edit:
of course an expander god supercharges your expansion, and thus midgame power, so there's that.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 03, 2014, 08:20:53 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 03, 2014, 08:34:09 pm
Regardless, there's a lot of nasty things you can do to a solo SC -- presumably by the time they start showing up, you've already got your money's worth out of the gorgon and either transitioned it into working with armies/other SCs or retired it to lab work (presumably under a dome, if they're bombarding you with VotD) or somethin'.
Just... yeah, if you use a pretender for expansion and you're in a game with VotD capable nations, don't have it cast any globals until you've got a dome or two over the province it's staying in. Gooood way to lose a global, heh. With a gorgon, probably a good idea to use that flight and SC-y nature to flap your way out of range, too. Was actually another reason VotD (astral spam in general) was effective as it was in 4.04, really -- everything was in range of R'lyeh labs, and most of Aspho&co's were in immediate ritual range of the squid's capital. Somewhat of a disadvantageous position to be in, heh.
Post by: Jacob/Lee on October 04, 2014, 10:38:27 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rez on October 04, 2014, 10:46:20 pm
Is there anyway for the promoted knight to Bless them?
Post by: E. Albright on October 05, 2014, 02:06:00 am
Post by: Frumple on October 05, 2014, 04:12:29 am
Post by: tompliss on October 05, 2014, 04:32:30 am
So... yeah :/
Post by: Frumple on October 05, 2014, 06:14:58 am
The 13 base defense (12, with the armor) makes 'em almost as dodge-y as something on a horse, but they're plain infantry.
Post by: Karlito on October 05, 2014, 11:56:53 am
your agarthan intrantry don't count because they've got the worst atk skill and are agaisnt mounted units.
Well, this is LA Agartha, so those guys are humans and have a baseline 10 attack, which is not the worst, even if they still suck. Those crossbowmen though, they are the worst. Honestly, Jacob/Lee, if you had 25 Indy crossbow dudes instead of your national ones, you could've done a lot better that battle.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 05, 2014, 12:57:24 pm
Post by: chaoticag on October 05, 2014, 02:26:11 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 05, 2014, 03:07:38 pm
So the extra precision means less than you'd think it does, and the extra damage is actually useful. And if you still aren't convinced I can always quote the manual, all of this is in there.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 05, 2014, 03:26:03 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on October 05, 2014, 03:29:27 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 05, 2014, 03:32:22 pm
Doesn't it make it more likly you hit your own troops, however?
Yes, but only obscene amounts of precision would fix that. You're going to hit your troops no matter what, it's just that the extra precision cuts down on the friendly fire somewhat. Though if you're Agartha, your troops are probably the best to weather missiles. High protection + kite shields gives them good odds against crossbows and almost impervious against arrows.
If you don't want to hit your own troops, use mind-eaters (like olms) instead.
We're talking about LA Agartha and their crossbowmen though. They don't have access to Olms, unfortunately.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 05, 2014, 03:43:16 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 05, 2014, 03:50:39 pm
Post by: Rez on October 05, 2014, 03:53:53 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 05, 2014, 04:30:33 pm
Though if you're Agartha, your troops are probably the best to weather missiles. High protection + kite shields gives them good odds against crossbows and almost impervious against arrows.
Since we're talking about LA Agartha, you have easy access to the E/D/W buffs that help your troops against friendly crossbow fire. Though I'm not sure if LA Agartha is quick to consider alteration to be their key research target early on.
Post by: Frumple on October 05, 2014, 04:54:36 pm
Mind blast units are relatively expensive to archers and they seem like they're better for supporting your heavy infantry than doing damage of themselves.Playing r'lyeh actually left me kind of curious on that subject -- not nearly curious enough to run the ridiculous amount of number crunching that would be involved to find out in any definitive way, but curious. Mindblasters definitely have a higher upfront cost and immediate upkeep, but I've also found them considerably less vulnerable to attrition and also notably more capable in general of combat-killing (not necessarily removing something's HP, but paralyzing them long enough for something else to kill them). There's probably all sorts of weird breakpoints where mindblasters become more cost efficient than archers and vice versa.
S'like. In one fight, is five archers (nevermind the significantly higher resource cost) going to be able to cause the death of more critters than a single illithid? Which will survive more fights? How much gold is it taking to keep those five archers around (i.e. maintain them in the face of combat losses) compared to that illithid? The equation almost certainly changes when there's 50 archers vs 10 illithids, or 500 vs 100, but... how much?
And naturally enough, those illithids are going to be massively more effective against certain types of armies... and the opposite is also true. It's an incredibly messy thing to consider, heh.
Post by: Rez on October 05, 2014, 05:44:46 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 05, 2014, 05:56:04 pm
Post by: Rez on October 05, 2014, 06:06:46 pm
ed: oh no map movement
Post by: Rez on October 05, 2014, 06:16:50 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 05, 2014, 06:21:07 pm
Post by: Elfeater on October 05, 2014, 09:04:31 pm
Post by: Rez on October 05, 2014, 10:12:42 pm
Post by: Elfeater on October 05, 2014, 10:38:57 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on October 06, 2014, 12:35:57 am
Mind blast units are relatively expensive to archers and they seem like they're better for supporting your heavy infantry than doing damage of themselves.Playing r'lyeh actually left me kind of curious on that subject -- not nearly curious enough to run the ridiculous amount of number crunching that would be involved to find out in any definitive way, but curious. Mindblasters definitely have a higher upfront cost and immediate upkeep, but I've also found them considerably less vulnerable to attrition and also notably more capable in general of combat-killing (not necessarily removing something's HP, but paralyzing them long enough for something else to kill them). There's probably all sorts of weird breakpoints where mindblasters become more cost efficient than archers and vice versa.
S'like. In one fight, is five archers (nevermind the significantly higher resource cost) going to be able to cause the death of more critters than a single illithid? Which will survive more fights? How much gold is it taking to keep those five archers around (i.e. maintain them in the face of combat losses) compared to that illithid? The equation almost certainly changes when there's 50 archers vs 10 illithids, or 500 vs 100, but... how much?
And naturally enough, those illithids are going to be massively more effective against certain types of armies... and the opposite is also true. It's an incredibly messy thing to consider, heh.
Also potentially better against trampling and flying SCs, where you don't want to lose your troops to friendly fire from archers - if the SC's MR isn't so high that it just ignores all the mindblasting, anyways.
I got the impression your illithid+lobo armies were pretty squishy from the early-mid (TC etc) battles in 404 (and when you fought MA Ulm), but Ulm especially is tough (and TC looked pretty tough too). But I was comparing it with how mine were doing, and I know I had a lot tougher troops, but you were able to mass produce yours on a much greater scale, which let you attack all over the map simultaneously by the end, whereas I had basically two large armies, and a bunch of marble oracle SCs. How many armies was that, around a dozen?
For my part, I think the olms seemed to work pretty well together with the longbowmen, with sentinels and SGs in front to catch charging troops. The longbowmen did much of the killing, and the olms paralyzed things. They didn't have to sit there and mindblast the same things over and over as much because it would get killed by arrows. I'm not sure if being paralyzed made them any easier to hit or harm, though. If it's just a roll against size and fatigue (IIRC?) to see if it hits them or empty space you wouldn't think it would matter if they were paralyzed (unless paralysis maxes out their fatigue?).
I definitely like using line formations to minimize casualties from arrows and spells - the morale hit seems unimportant when you have a bunch of H2 or H3 casters to cast sermon of courage (or fanaticism if you have an H4).
Post by: Shadowlord on October 06, 2014, 12:29:37 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 06, 2014, 12:41:02 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 06, 2014, 12:44:36 pm
S'far as I'm aware, yeah. Also won't work on mindless astral mages, ala golems. It's strictly anti-astral, and one of the reasons taking astral (particularly low astral) on a combat pretender is incredibly risky.
Its rather Master of Magic in a sort of way.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 06, 2014, 03:53:10 pm
Im playing as the ape deamons, how on gods green earth do I beat the EA Abyisians? fire too stronk.
I don't have experience with Lanka much, but a few basic things you might not be aware:
1) Dakini are awesome. Whether you use them for raiding or army casting, they're a ridiculously good way to spend your slaves
2) EA Lanka is one of the few nations that can reanimate the dead with their living priests, use this to your advantage. Spam indie priests from non-fort temples like there's no tomorrow
Post by: Mindmaker on October 07, 2014, 06:39:16 pm
Mainly asking because it becomes such a pain to position huge numbers of mages without bunching them up (so they aren't attractive to spells and ranged attacks) and placing them away from regular troops so they don't get hit by strays.
Also it becomes increasingly difficult to not turn your army into a blob, since each and every gap becomes progressively filled out.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 07, 2014, 07:58:47 pm
Idea is that the chaff gets shot up so that the better troops can advance relatively unharmed. Shots aimed at the better troops will hopefully hit them and not the mages in the edges of the formations.
Getting some buffs on your mages really ups their survivability. S9 bless, battle fortune, wave warriors, anything you can cast. Really easy if you have communions or battlefield wide stuff available.
It's definitely tricky, I'm not honestly sure I'm even doing a great job of it.
I guess the easiest way to un-blob your army would be to divide it. Break your army into smaller splinters if you can get away with it. Instead of taking province per turn from the enemy, take three or five. Hundred guys and some mages x3 gets more done than three hundred guys and a blob of mages. Admittedly that depends on the relative strengths and the geography of where you're fighting. I've seen some players (on bay12 and elsewhere) to get reeeally fixated on big blobs. There's a time and place for those, certainly. Can't break a castle with fifty dudes. But being flexible enough to hit multiple targets at once can be a great income denier for your enemy.
Best way to fight an unholy lategame doomstack is to go around it if you can. Either that or turn-1 earthquake :P
Post by: Frumple on October 07, 2014, 09:15:50 pm
The biggest issue t'me is being able to figure out what's big enough -- being able to take five provinces a turn doesn't matter if five turns later your entire force has been defeated piecemeal and it takes 5+ more to recuperate your losses, all while whatever offered up your defeat in detail rampages around unchecked. Especially given that while a 100 troop 3 mage army may be able to take a province (often easily, depending on PD and defending forces), whatever's left behind probably won't be able to keep it. And while constant raiding is a very, very good thing to be doing (both for the economic effect and how demoralizing it can be for an opponent), it's not, in itself, necessarily going to win the game for you. And the economic effect of it can become very diluted if you're constantly losing your raid groups (of course, that makes the reanimating or domsum nations very attractive for multi-group attacks, since they don't really pay much for their junk).
What's actually nice about the end game is by that point you should (hopefully, and contingent to your nation) have a lot of options for dealing with enemy armies off the main battlefield. Assassins, remote attack spells of both the direct (damaging/assassinating) and indirect (weather/supply targeting/disease, etc) sorts, the as-noted bypassing (if giant army barrels into your nation, hop flying SC/thug(s) a province or two behind them and just clean up after the mess), globals such as vengeful waters, etc., etc. Short of nasty stuff like an SC trapezing in and setting up a lab for an incoming gateway(s), large armies are very... inflexible. Slow, and vulnerable to said defeat in detail if they split up to deal with multi-pronged attacks.
... but yeah, as for actual formations, if it's reached the point the blob is battlefield wide I tend to just say screw it and let it blob. Put casters where they can hit stuff with gift of flight or somethin' or just let the non-caster/unimportant troops get chewed up while the other stuff do their work. At that point I don't really seem them as means of offense so much as ablative HP shields for my actually important stuff, and at that point their placement becomes... less important. I have, however, played a disproportionate amount of chaff heavy nations in SP games, which definitely influences that tendency.
Post by: Mindmaker on October 08, 2014, 03:57:50 am
I used to have them in lines with a bit of space in between, but that's no longer possible, especially since when lines get to long they turn into double lines anyway. I'm just worried that they'll be to vulnerable to area spells.
It's not much better with my mage support, which is 18 communion slaves and maybe 15 masters and a couple of regular casters. It's really hard not to bunch them up in the rear.
Post by: Frumple on October 08, 2014, 09:04:57 am
Also harder to just punch through at that point, too, so it's sort of a good thing. Presumably if you're still worried about AoE you could try the skirmish formation. Don't think I've ever actually used it, m'self, and I have no idea how it reacts to buggeroff huge squads, but...
Though... is there a way to see what your formation looks like in combat without actually starting a fight? That would be intensely helpful, but I couldn't seem to find a command for it browsing the ? lists.
Post by: Karlito on October 08, 2014, 10:00:01 am
Though... is there a way to see what your formation looks like in combat without actually starting a fight? That would be intensely helpful, but I couldn't seem to find a command for it browsing the ? lists.
Man I wish. We could maybe get range indicators for spells and ranged attacks too, with the enemy's deployment area highlighted. Despite the huge improvement over Dominions 3, there's still a lot of QoL stuff like this that's missing from Dom4.
Post by: Mindmaker on October 10, 2014, 07:22:42 pm
Otherwise it's going to be very painful.
Post by: Frumple on October 10, 2014, 07:42:02 pm
If they don't have a meaningful way to attack, you might try earth attack (or some other means of assassination, if you can acquire it* -- send in a non-caster with a skellie amulet set to cast spells) and laugh when/if the turn limit gets hit and insta-kills 'em. Similarly, if they're killing, throw in a bunch of chaff and then VotD them into end-fight auto-kill, heh.
*Actually, I've been meaning to ask about that. How does the assassin's heart thingy react to shademail?
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 10, 2014, 08:08:57 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 10, 2014, 08:13:09 pm
E: He~ey. Turns out shademail enables black heart just fine. Looks like non-lifeless undead are probably ideal targets for the combo. It's not the most efficient thing in the world (especially considering some stealth boosters to go with it are probably needed), but assassinating wraith lords or whathaveyou (y'know, tartarians, whatev') is an... interesting thing.
I mean, sure, a tartarian assassin is just slightly overkill in most situations, but... as psychological tactics go, goddamn. Tartarian assassin. How the hell do you react to a freaking tartarian assassin rolling up into your crib? I mean, besides patrolling like damn and praying it doesn't just roll over your patrol army anyway.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 10, 2014, 08:22:49 pm
... just to check, you do know most of the warhammer fantasy ones do have mods, right?
I do, did I not say 40k?
Post by: E. Albright on October 10, 2014, 08:38:02 pm
Post by: tompliss on October 11, 2014, 02:34:41 am
I do, did I not say 40k?The "problem" with W40k is the lack of Magic.
Dominions is based on the fact that nations have access to magic paths to a certain extend, to work correctly.
And if you modded all the W40k nations without magic in dominions.... Well, you would have a pretty "classic" wargame, and no use playing it as a Dom4 mod, as most other wargames would fit it better :/
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 11, 2014, 03:38:50 am
Frumple, don't forget that if you're willing to wait until they besiege you, you can forgo the Shademail and just send the Blackhearted Tartarian out to assassinate people in the besieging army willy-nilly, although a Wraithlord seems more appropriate for defensive measures like that. And, uh, because it's slightly less ridiculous overkill.If it ain't got stealth, then it'll assassinate a random unit from the army. Good luck targetting a commander this way.
Post by: Frumple on October 11, 2014, 08:32:51 am
... WH40k totally has magic. It has great honking swaths of magic that occasionally devour entire solar systems and start spewing out things whose entire form is raw magic. It's a setting where thousands of magic users are sacrificed daily to keep a galaxy-scale global active. You could totally stick WH40k into D4 and still have psykers flailing around and calling upI do, did I not say 40k?The "problem" with W40k is the lack of Magic. [snip]
S'not really a problem, is what m'saying.
Post by: E. Albright on October 11, 2014, 12:47:33 pm
If it ain't got stealth, then it'll assassinate a random unit from the army. Good luck targetting a commander this way.
...I'm not sure what you mean. If a unit w/o stealth is given a Black Heart, it'll behave exactly like a unit with stealth and a Black Heart (or a normal assassin) when both are in a besieged fort; i.e., both will assassinate besieging enemy commanders in a completely normal manner.
Or are you just talking about targeting a particular commander for assassination? The bit about stealth is what's confusing me.
Post by: Elfeater on October 11, 2014, 05:31:09 pm
Post by: Karlito on October 11, 2014, 05:36:44 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 11, 2014, 06:40:44 pm
Drain is probably a really good idea, though -- MA Ulm's MR is generally kinda' terrible, from what I saw, and some drain would help counteract that. Prooobably not drain 3, though -- iirc, that opens up some pretty terrible events.
Not sure I'd go so far as to take sloth, but neutral on the prod/sloth scale? Maybe. You do probably want a minor earth bless (everybody wants a minor earth bless, unless they have both no sacred casters and no access to astral for shrouds... maybe even then, since S1 indies are kinda' common) for reinvig on your IB spammers, but nothing beyond that. Seriously the only sacreds you have are the two casters and a H1 priest. Consequentially for that, you probably want your dom as low as you can stand, since you're not pumping out sacred troops (because you don't have any). Burning some for more order/growth/luck (i.e. gold) would probably help offset that with more temples, as well.
And yeah, some diversity would be nice. Your pretender being able to forge some combination of air/fire/astral (and the air/earth would give you elemental staves, eh wot) boosters would be a pretty big deal -- it'd let you get a lot more out of your native randoms.
E: Enough astral to boost your pretender up to gateway casting (S2, with coin then cap, assuming you've got that minor earth bless -- otherwise S3 and coin or cap. You probably would want the S3 anyway, for base mind hunt immunity) would also be a pretty good way to eek out some mobility for your armies.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 11, 2014, 06:58:28 pm
I'm thinking that if I'm using primarily troops that don't need to eat, I don't particularly need supplies in my dominion, and therefore taking death scales can make invading my territory a more difficult prospect. Of course if that would kill off my population, that would present a problem.
Post by: Frumple on October 11, 2014, 07:01:28 pm
E: As for the rest, death definitely has bad events, though I couldn't say which ones, heh. Light death also isn't that bad, nor is heavy if you expect to transition away from a gold economy at some point (though... not into blood, since that's pretty dependent on population levels). It just means you're definitively gambling that your early to mid game will let you make up for the income erosion inherent with taking death.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 11, 2014, 07:06:34 pm
Post by: Elfeater on October 11, 2014, 07:13:35 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 11, 2014, 07:17:33 pm
Ooh.... and from the multiplayer perspective, death, particular high death, is also a pretty strong declaration of intent -- a death nation can't really afford to not be aggressively expansionist. The only way they can really cope long term is to outpace the erosion of their income with new acquisitions. I'd imagine it would make diplomacy more difficult, as well as make you a more attractive target for alliances (because the sooner you die, the more they get out of your decaying provinces). More than just about anything, a death dominion makes you a very unattractive neighbor.
Post by: E. Albright on October 12, 2014, 12:06:48 am
Drain is probably a really good idea, though -- MA Ulm's MR is generally kinda' terrible, from what I saw, and some drain would help counteract that. Prooobably not drain 3, though -- iirc, that opens up some pretty terrible events.
There's really only one meaningfully bad event I've seen with Drain-3 and positive Luck scales, and I've almost never seen it even then - it's just it's one which players hate so much that I think they get seriously loss-adverse and overstate its impact. I speak, of course, of the "Magic is fading" event, which is indeed seriously annoying - since it's percentage-based, you can lose tens or (with sufficiently bloated gem stockpiles) hundreds of gems - but it's manageable, and I honestly still see enough gem-granting events with Luck 3 and Drain 3 that I'm not convinced it's the woeful monstrosity it gets portrayed as.
Post by: tompliss on October 12, 2014, 01:59:42 am
So, what kind of consequences are there from taking death scales ?Don't forget about the old-age afflictions :
If a non-undead non-lifeless has old-age, it may get a new affliction every year, with a chance based on the death/growth scale in tis province.
With growth3, it has approx 10 times less chances of affliction than in death3, or something like that.
(and as with every scales, there are new events. Mainly pop-loss ones, with death)
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 12, 2014, 05:25:57 am
I speak from experience in 4.06. While besieged, I put a black heart on a flame spirit, which then proceeded to assassinate skeletons and other assorted chaff from the besieging army.If it ain't got stealth, then it'll assassinate a random unit from the army. Good luck targetting a commander this way.
...I'm not sure what you mean. If a unit w/o stealth is given a Black Heart, it'll behave exactly like a unit with stealth and a Black Heart (or a normal assassin) when both are in a besieged fort; i.e., both will assassinate besieging enemy commanders in a completely normal manner.
Or are you just talking about targeting a particular commander for assassination? The bit about stealth is what's confusing me.
I concluded, admittedly with a small sample size, that the lack of stealth on the spirit was the deciding factor in the poor choice of targets.
You're telling me I was wrong. Was that a bug, perhaps? We were playing the latest version.
Post by: E. Albright on October 12, 2014, 06:06:02 am
Post by: Besserwisser on November 03, 2014, 06:12:41 pm
Post by: Frumple on November 03, 2014, 06:20:54 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 03, 2014, 06:30:03 pm
EDIT: Best of all, the sacred ghost summoning is affected by the amulet of the dead. So you can summon even more insane amounts of them per turn while swallowing up the world. Heheheheh...
Post by: Shadowlord on November 03, 2014, 06:55:12 pm
* They're cold-blooded now, and if the replay is accurate to how it would go in 4.14, I would have lost a battle and killed nobody in it (which I actually won with minimal losses).
Post by: Frumple on November 03, 2014, 07:07:06 pm
Post by: Karlito on November 03, 2014, 07:07:42 pm
... y'know, just to check, that innate spellcaster (2) (or 3, in the case of the hero) means what I think it means, right? Multiple spellcasts per round?
Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.
Post by: Frumple on November 03, 2014, 08:05:03 pm
Also worth noting you should never buy the full 850 critters if you're aiming for cost efficiency. Just have a couple in waiting when one of 'em keels over. Major cost reduction, that.
The ghost caelum are kinda' cruddy, though. I mean, yeah, they're sacred ethereal fliers, but they've got most of the same problems lemuria does. Kinda' easy to kill, not very damaging... they're sacred, and huge swaths of sacreds have their place, but they're also, y'know. Sacred chaff. I guess a flagellant bless, maybe?
Neat but junky honestly seems to sum up a lot of Na-whatever's lineup, at first blush :-\
Post by: E. Albright on November 03, 2014, 08:50:05 pm
Post by: TheMastermind on November 04, 2014, 09:43:34 am
This mod is not comeplety possible at this moment, since the game is not 100% moddable, but it's a fun idea i was toying around with.
So the game will go like this:
Pretender
The pretender in this game is your main survivor, he is a normal survivor like any other you'll meet in the game, he/she dont hold any extreme significance, and losing him could be a bummer, but wont lose your game. Needless to say he can't be resurrected by prayers.Units and heroes All survivor units are heroes, able to hold equipment, follow orders and gain experience, regular units are mostly used for random monsters, undead, animals and mutants.
Survivors come with different sprites and stats depending on their backgrounds, but are mainly customizable with equipment. All survivors should have stealth (with varying chance of success Units can also be robots, drones, turrets, barricades, and other automatic or controllable things.
Gems
Gems would be changed into resources, things like metal, wood, stone. In a modern setting there can also be rubber, electronics, fuel etc'.Food might be handeld as a resource or as it's currently handeld.
Magic Sites
Magic sites will work in such a way that they need to be operated by a survivor to generate resources, some may work like the laboratory and allow the crafting of items and casting for "rituals".Each region will have servel magic sites, almost all of the will be immediately visible, with only rare ones being hidden, regions will mostly make 0 food and will requiere working of magic sites.
Magic Paths
Magic paths will become skills, they dont have any connection to their respective resources.
They can be stuff like this:
Medical - preform treatments and surgeries.
Fabrication - create items.
Construction - create buildings, barricades and traps. Gives you "Fast Assemble" (leadership type) that allows you to setup barricades and traps before battle.
Electronics - advanced items and robotics.Gives you "Robot leadership" that allows you to control robots and turrets at battle.
Farming/Hunting/Scavenging, will mostly affect how well you use certain sites?
There might also be combat skills, since magic paths have passive combat bonuses.
Magic Rituals
This is a tough one, since im not sure how research should function (maybe just start at max?), but servel uses for magic rituals might be:
Construction of buildings with resources.
"Summoning" of inanimate objects, like barricades and traps that can be placed on the battlefield (but of course have 0 move so they cant move on the map).
Medical treatment, Preforming surgeries, cybernetic implants, etc.
Construction of robots, drones and turrets, or maybe just fixing broken ones that you can find.
Construction of viehcels, not sure how these are going to work.
Some rituals will of course require servel magic paths, but should be doable with teamwork of servel survivors.
Curses
With some changes curses might change to radiation poisoning.
Radiation may cause negative and positive mutations?
Independent Armies
Indies will be regions filled with zombies, monsters and mutants, some of them would be hero monsters that hold items (So we can loot them!).
Other Stuff:
I'm not sure what kind of use the "resources" in the game might have, also gold (might be used as food?).
Skill leveling should probably have some other way of happening instead of a big sacrifice of resources (also, it would make us attach a resource to each skill, which might suck).
New survivors might join you through random events, Some kind of "Search for survivors" action that your survivors can take (or a magic ritual?), and maybe even pregnancy?
Game Flow
The game will play like this: you will need to manage what each of your survivors do, how to best manage their skills, your resources and items. Radiation, hunger, increase in population and increasing enemy threats will force you to move, conquer regions and adept.
Combat arrangement will see you position and give orders to every survivor, positioning barricades and mourning every death.
In multiplayer aggression between players may rise, but trading of items and resources might be critical for survival.
So what do you guys think? Would it be fun? Would it be possible in the future? Have any cool ideas to add to that thing?
Post by: E. Albright on November 04, 2014, 12:46:22 pm
It'd also be a TON of work.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on November 04, 2014, 03:14:34 pm
Post by: Darkwind3 on November 04, 2014, 07:43:17 pm
Post by: tompliss on November 05, 2014, 03:25:49 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 05, 2014, 08:34:47 am
Personally I'm more annoyed that Beast Bats are such terrible units. Maybe it's because I'm not using the best bless for them, but they always seem to get splattered the moment after they get into combat. Which is a shame because I was experimenting with recruiting only Onaqui, so that I could get tons of them as freespawn and try to conquer the world that way. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to work out.
Post by: E. Albright on November 05, 2014, 02:41:04 pm
Plus the big scorpions are somewhat more tougher than your average bat, though that's not saying much...
Ah, but the biggest scorpions are tanky sacred monstrosities which are unlike anything else in Xibalba's lineup. Yes, they're a mage-turn each to summon, but Xibalba has would-be summoners as foreign recruits, so that's not such an issue.
Post by: lijacote on November 05, 2014, 02:50:01 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 05, 2014, 02:58:42 pm
Ah, but the biggest scorpions are tanky sacred monstrosities which are unlike anything else in Xibalba's lineup. Yes, they're a mage-turn each to summon, but Xibalba has would-be summoners as foreign recruits, so that's not such an issue.
Oh, definitely. The only problem is that you can't really get them for expansion, since they're at Conj 3 and it takes too long to get that far up in research. Or something like that. The problems I'm having with Xibalba are more to do with expansion than anything else. They have excellent blood hunters and can summon up hordes of sacred demons in the late game, but getting there is proving to be a bit of a pain.
Post by: E. Albright on November 05, 2014, 03:38:53 pm
The reanimates that Nazca gets (at H3+) are delicious -- sacred, ethereal, defence 16 magic-weapon wielding terrors. Then again, they suffer from having their damage being reliant on MR being penetrated.
I've heard F9 touted (and described as successfully tested in early blitzes) as a very effective means of overcoming that shortcoming.
Post by: sum1won on November 08, 2014, 07:30:28 pm
The reanimates that Nazca gets (at H3+) are delicious -- sacred, ethereal, defence 16 magic-weapon wielding terrors. Then again, they suffer from having their damage being reliant on MR being penetrated.
I've heard F9 touted (and described as successfully tested in early blitzes) as a very effective means of overcoming that shortcoming.
2/3 of F9, W9 and S9 are what I've seen from them in blitzes. They're up to 4/4 relying on that. Antimgic is nice, but only reduces efficacy by about 60%, which is not always enough, especially considering how hard it is to tie up fliers with great morale, and how hard it is to hit high-defense nonfatiguing ethereal troops.
EA/LA Xibalba expansion is fantastic. You lose about 5 zotz/province, which is like 35 gold, and if you capture forests or caves you can basically double the number of expansion armies per turn. Flying helps. And sacreds hit hard enough to clear armored provinces.
Also, stopping in to drop off this survey on overall nation strength, since there are plenty of people here who don't really frequent desura:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NqWCD3hoDWFZQ5d7QXRNlHAOSYQDSPd7yQEiH9u00xk/viewform?usp=send_form
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 08, 2014, 07:46:14 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on November 08, 2014, 08:05:29 pm
Post by: sum1won on November 09, 2014, 01:26:20 am
How do you see the results without voting?
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NqWCD3hoDWFZQ5d7QXRNlHAOSYQDSPd7yQEiH9u00xk/viewanalytics
There's the summary of results. I'd appreciate people vote, though.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on November 09, 2014, 06:12:48 am
Mostly "Don't Know", but still.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 09, 2014, 01:11:11 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 21, 2014, 03:21:14 pm
It looks pretty complicated. I've gotten down the controls and some basic first turn stuff (although I still have no idea what an optimal way to handle the early game is). So some questions:
1. How good am I going to have to get to bother playing multiplayer?
2. I know you can recruit local troops from conquered provinces. So to what extent is my choice of race a "starting package" versus a class that will define me for the whole game?
3. You guys keep talking about "chaff". What is the strongest troop you would categorize as chaff? Am I going to spend most of the game fighting with summoned monsters or are my starting elites good enough?
4. Any tips for what to research at first?
5. How quickly should I gobble up the independents, and how concerned should I be with defense at this stage of the game?
Post by: Karlito on December 21, 2014, 04:05:18 pm
Quote
1. How good am I going to have to get to bother playing multiplayer?You don't need to be very good at all. I personally consider single player pointless; multiplayer is the core of the game. I'd say, at minimum, know how the UI works, and have a vague notion of how at least 1 nation plays earlygame(expanding against independents; rushing other players; troops dominant) to midgame(fighting other players; magic becomes important), and that's probably enough. You can look for newbie games and only play against less experienced players, if you like.
Quote
2. I know you can recruit local troops from conquered provinces. So to what extent is my choice of race a "starting package" versus a class that will define me for the whole game?Nation choice is very much a "defining class" sort of thing, though most nations support more than one strategy. Generally, independent troops suck even more than your national troops, and won't be worth recruiting, but there are exceptions. For example, a nation with no archers may find it beneficial to recruit independent archers. It can often be worthwhile to recruit independent mages that have access to magical paths that your national ones don't.
Also, keep in mind that to recruit (most) units in any kind of quantity from a province, that province will need to have a fort, and any province with a fort will be able to recruit your national units.
Even in the "lategame", which is maybe 80 to 100 turns into a standard multiplayer match, where you've acquired enough magical diversity and research that you have many many tactical options on the table, nation choice is still very influential on your playstyle.
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3. You guys keep talking about "chaff". What is the strongest troop you would categorize as chaff?Hmmm, chaff is really more of a troop role than a troop descriptor, in my mind. Like, most human nations will start out using their infantry as the primary way to kill enemies, but eventually research into magic will cause them to become obsolete in this role, and they'll be relegated to soaking up fire and guarding the back row. Conversely, even the lowly makarta can become quite deadly with a few well-picked buffs.
Quote
Am I going to spend most of the game fighting with summoned monsters or are my starting elites good enough?I've put these questions together because the answer is the same: it depends entirely on your nation choice and strategy. If you have a particular nation that you like to play, we could discuss these questions in more detail.
Any tips for what to research at first?
Quote
How quickly should I gobble up the independents,As fast as possible. As a rule of thumb, average at least 1 province/month in the first year.
Quote
how concerned should I be with defense at this stage of the game?At every stage of the game, I usually put only 1 point of province defense everywhere. In most cases, spending gold on troops is more worthwhile. However, as you are playing singleplayer, this advice is not necessarily applicable. It's very easy for a player to kill 20 or 30 gold worth of pd, but the AI probably has more trouble (though I have not seriously played dominions 4 singleplayer ever).
Anyway, I'm just one guy with my own views, so I hope other players will chime in if they feel the need.
Post by: RexMundi on December 21, 2014, 04:12:15 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 21, 2014, 04:14:49 pm
At every stage of the game, I usually put only 1 point of province defense everywhere.More explicitly here, if you're playing multiplayer, you always put at least one point of PD everywhere. No exceptions, ever. If PD = 0, make PD >= 1.
Otherwise, at some point in the game, that critter that's been spewing scouts everywhere (which is, quite possibly, everyone*) will cheerfully conquer every single undefended province you have on the same turn their major military forces decide to slam into you.
... which is kinda' fun to be on the giving end of, but not on the receiving :V
*And should definitely include you. If you don't have particularly notable national scouts (Fliers, spies, assassins), the instant you conquer an indie province that produces scouts, you set that province to auto-recruit scouts and never turn it off. There's not terribly many ways you can better spend 25 gold.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 21, 2014, 04:19:59 pm
It might be smarter about making pretenders now, that was several patches ago (you can make it use pretenders of your own design in any case).
Post by: E. Albright on December 21, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Quote from: Changelog between 4.03 and 4.04
2014-01-26 12:52:23 +0100
AI improved item distribution
AI improved thug creation
AI improved research item creation
I'd add to the "1 PD everywhere, always" that there are a few magic numbers for both SP and MP.
The SP AI is fairly simple, but it does actually have war and peace states, and if you want to stay at peace with an AI neighbor, strong PD is the starting point for that (though it's not always enough). The AI will consider provinces with PD under 20 or 25-ish to be vulnerable unless they have comparable amounts of troops present instead, and it tends to attack vulnerable neighbors when it's feasible to do so. I usually play it safe and make my borders with AI nations I don't wanna fight right now PD 30 if at all possible (and never below 20 unless I truly can't even), and it really reduces how many AIs I have to fight at once.
For MP, the magic numbers are 1 (for obvious reasons), and 6, 20, and 35 (for less obvious reasons). Unless it's a spy doing it, scout reports give rough estimates of local PD, and they do it according to hard cutoffs. So any PD of 1-5 looks the same to a scout, as does all between 6-19, 20-34, and 35+, respectively.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 21, 2014, 11:18:29 pm
As a side note, funny thing happened. I had a Gygja (old witch, giant of course) who was in a backwater province searching for magic sites, but I wanted her to wait a turn for another mage to catch up. So I tell her to search for blood sacrifices, because it seemed to be the main useful thing for her to do at the time.
Next turn, I hear that a battle happened there. I zoom in to check, and I see that a single heroic peasant charged the giant hag. He shrugged off a half dozen hits of some bleed spell or another, ran up to her, and killed her with a fucking pitchfork. I love that, they're going to be telling stories of that guy for centuries to come. Probably where no giants can hear them.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 22, 2014, 04:05:27 am
If you can manage roughly 10 provinces and a second fort under construction by year-2 start you're already doing better than many newbies, though there are nations/builds that can manage much better than that if you know what you're doing.
N9Ex (Nature 9 Earth 4 or more) pretender is often recommended for Niefelheim due to it being very beneficial on Niefel sacreds. It's a nation with good (and expensive) things all over, so you don't really need your pretender to be around. I would take it imprisoned for good scales & bless as that seems like an obvious choice (caveat: I don't play Niefelheim).
Dominionwise you should consider 7 to be low but acceptable. I prefer to go higher, but I guess 7 works if you're cheap.
Gist of Niefelheim vs AI is to mass up your Niefel troops who can withstand large AI hordes thanks to their N9 regeneration and kill them thanks to their native cold aura. Later on you can also get Niefel Jarl "thugs" (powerful commander units with powerful gear). Well kitted your thugs can do a lot of things that would require thousands of gold to achieve otherwise. Badly kitted your bloated price tag will only ensure extravagant and unnecessary losses when they inevitably die. Though I'm sure you could play without a bless and rely less on your frost giants.
And if you want to give any of those vague builds a shot, Irminsul (the big tree) would be a cheaper pretender than the Great Mother. It would be an immobile tree sitting in your capital for the entire game but there's a reason that tree is called OP by some.
You should be aware of the mod inspector tool:
http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/
It's basically a browsable database of all the entities in the game. Quite useful.
edit:
Depending on a particular game, the first 10-15, maybe 20 turns but definitely no more are fairly similar between SP and MP. Incidentally that's around when you start to transition from earlygame to midgame. So that early time period is fairly easy to practice. To really get mid-/endgame you need to do some MP and fail at it a few times. It's fun trust me. Get some practical experience on the first game year or two and a vague theory on what you should achieve on year 3 and that's honestly both pretty basic and more than most newbies do.
Also there's guides here:
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/board/the-council-of-sages-strategy-guides
Here's a few basic gameplay guides related to pretender creation:
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/primer-pretender-design
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/pretender-design-and-analysis-updated-to-dominions-4
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/pretender-design-golden-rule
I'm guessing you got the game from steam? The folks on the steam general forum aren't quite as MP minded (nothing wrong with that but it does colour some advice) and while they have an unpinned guide compilation thread, it doesn't have any quality control unlike desura (it requires moderator action to move a thread to the guide section).
Post by: RexMundi on December 22, 2014, 11:01:15 am
Did end up starting a new game, or, i'm trying to anyway. Very new at hosting, heh.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 22, 2014, 04:50:21 pm
1. Am I correct in noticing that province defense increases resolve BEFORE move orders? Cause that seems a bit cruel.
2. If a province is cut off from the capital/main mass of a faction, does it suffer supply damage? One time an AI force advanced into my territory, only for me to cut off their gains into a two province bubble. In one turn, 30/50 of them died (without any fight I could see). This is with 3 cold mind you, and the attackers were those bat people vulnerable to cold.
3. Anyone know a mod, hotkey or option that makes stealthed scouts more visually obvious? I keep forgetting to move them. Warning on end turn sort of helps but not in finding the damn guys.
4. I used my pretender to help expand rapidly... and now she has a limp. Any way to deal with that?
5. This is less of a minor question, but if I wanted to make a "suicide squad" that could go up against a huge enemy force and still inflict reasonable casualties, how would I go about doing that? I've heard talk in this thread of mages who curse the whole army before they die and such, but there don't seem to be many AoE spells and all of them are restricted to higher levels.
Post by: RexMundi on December 22, 2014, 05:18:10 pm
2, Not sure on damage, but iirc if you can't trace to a fort you get no income at least
3, not that i know of, i always forget them too :<
4, umm, knew the answer if you asked a month ago, but can't recal exactly, i THINK there are some spells/rituals that might help, and imortality adds healing of things like that last i remember.
Post by: E. Albright on December 22, 2014, 05:29:12 pm
2. Starvation from lack of supplies takes a long time to kill off troops. I'd assume you actually cut them off and they had troops retreat; if there's no adjacent friendly province when you retreat, you die (even if you can fly or sail).
3. Cycle through all "active" commanders with "n" (next). Hotkey reference is "?" in-game, and there's a cheatsheet here (http://www.illwinter.com/dom4/dom4_quickref.pdf).
4. Not many. Healing is hard. A very few nations (e.g., Arco) have recruitable healers; otherwise it's Ench-7 for Gift of Health, or Cons-8 to forge the Chalice (though if she's undead, the Chalice won't help). If she's immortal (or has recuperation, though I can't think of any female pretenders with recuperation off the top of my head), she'll eventually heal it on her own.
5. Um, that's extremely circumstantial. It entirely depends on what you have to work with, and what you're attacking.
Post by: Frumple on December 22, 2014, 05:36:20 pm
Though, with limp, I'd honestly probably recommend just ignoring it. Iirc, a limp doesn't actually hurt your combat effectiveness terribly much. Especially compared to stuff like chest wound, which is basically a combat-character's death knell, unless they're fatigue-less critter.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 22, 2014, 05:51:16 pm
1. Am I correct in noticing that province defense increases resolve BEFORE move orders? Cause that seems a bit cruel.
Eh... Not really. PD isn't amazingly effective, so barring a small raiding party it doesn't make much of a difference. Well, unless you're willing to dump tons of gold into PD that is. Which is definitely not the best idea.
2. If a province is cut off from the capital/main mass of a faction, does it suffer supply damage? One time an AI force advanced into my territory, only for me to cut off their gains into a two province bubble. In one turn, 30/50 of them died (without any fight I could see). This is with 3 cold mind you, and the attackers were those bat people vulnerable to cold.
Supply is not affected by being connected to a castle/fort, though I believe that they can project supplies out in a bubble around them. Additionally starvation usually takes a couple of turns to kick in. So what most likely happened is that the AI was dumb and was rampaging its zotzes through a bunch of low supply provinces and ignored the fact that they were starving. Then a bunch of bats concidently bit the bullet after you cut off their gains.
Alternatively scouting reports are extremely variable, so unless you actually saw them fight it could have just been your scouts messing around with you.
Alternatively alternatively, zotzes can fly. So they could have shuffled guys out and around. Or something.
3. Anyone know a mod, hotkey or option that makes stealthed scouts more visually obvious? I keep forgetting to move them. Warning on end turn sort of helps but not in finding the damn guys.
Use 'n' to cycle through commanders without orders, or something like that. Also mashing '?' on a screen usually produces a window that list all available hotkeys on that screen, so maybe you'll find exactly what you're looking for that way.
4. I used my pretender to help expand rapidly... and now she has a limp. Any way to deal with that?
The obvious ones are Gift of Health and the Chalice of something or other. Can't remember the name off the top of my head. But both require high nature magic, which may not be an option. Alternatively you can look for commanders with the HEALER tag, which heal a set amount of afflictions a month. But only certain nations get to recruit/summon commanders with that tag. So if you're one of the many nations without them, then your only option is to suck it up and just deal with it.
5. This is less of a minor question, but if I wanted to make a "suicide squad" that could go up against a huge enemy force and still inflict reasonable casualties, how would I go about doing that? I've heard talk in this thread of mages who curse the whole army before they die and such, but there don't seem to be many AoE spells and all of them are restricted to higher levels.
Well... Yeah. You've hit the nail on the head. The kind of spells you're looking for are all in the upper tiers, and generally are hard to cast. Unless you get freespawn from somewhere, my advice would be to look for something else to damage your enemies. Though with that being said... If you want a good suicide squad, you need two things: A way to damage the enemy, and a way to keep the suicide squad alive until they can do their job.
The most obvious/classic suicide squad would be Pan's Maenids backed up by Iron Bane and Rising Fury. Maenids are berserkers, so Rising Fury causes them to go instantly berserk and thus will never flee. So your commanders/mages can safely back out of battle after their job is done. Iron Bane causes all armour to rust, so they'll break in a single hit. Maenids have no armour themselves, but dual wield fists. So the idea is that they'll break the enemy's armour with one attack, and then bludgeon them to death afterwards.
Rain of Stones is another good suicide squad tactic, if hard to pull off cheaply for many nations. It attacks every single unit on the battlefield, so it can deal some good damage and kill squishy mages. Plus if you give the caster good armour they can usually survive, which means you can cast it again. Or retreat to harass the enemy another day. You might have to give the mage some chaff to live long enough to cast Rain of Stones, but still. It's a good tactic and something to dread when fighting enemies who can utilize it.
You could probably do something similar with undead, who never flee but need undead leadership to keep them together and have blind vision too. So something like solar eclipse + scores of undead could deal damage before being wiped out themselves.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 22, 2014, 06:01:03 pm
I think I've finally got the basics down and this game is a lot of fun. So far I'm a little after the the early game should have ended, and I've almost killed a normal AI. I didn't even want to, but they declared war before we even bordered each other and just kept attacking and attacking and attacking. They would attack my elite prophet + sacred giant squad with roughly even numbers, or send 35 light infantry after a 29 defense province and ignore the fact that I had a small force of giants and my pretender god there. This is probably why I have such a good impression of province defense; a lot of needless early game fighting that I win because my opponent apparently has rabies.
Most hilariously though, they kept trying to assassinate my heroes. It was a good idea, and some of the attempts were kind of scary, except that they would only send one guy. My single Herse building a fortress was the first attempt. He cut the assassin in half with a single blow because he's a giant what did you expect. Then one of my site hunter mages, who tangle vined the assassin and then used leeching touch to one shot him.
Most hilariously, they sent a single assassin after my regenerating pretender god with almost three hundred health.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 22, 2014, 06:04:55 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 22, 2014, 06:05:47 pm
Well, it's still hilarious then, just not in the same way :P
Post by: Shadowlord on December 22, 2014, 06:21:43 pm
Also I prefer to keep PD levels in most provinces at at least 10, up to 19 depending on likelihood of enemy scouts/spies/assassins passing through or being in the province (more with effective PD troops, little or no PD if it buys crap or few PD). PD has no upkeep cost, either, which factors into it. You could also afford to blow more gold on it if you're a summon-heavy nation.
If you have excellent national PD it can't hurt to have a good number at your forts as additional defense and deterrent.
In 4x11, while Sceleria was sieging my capital, they broke off small groups of undead and made several attempts over 3 or 4 turns to take some adjacent provinces, only to be repelled every time by my PD. (But of course it's no obstacle to a huge army, but if you use your PD as chaff in a battle, and win, they come back for free after...)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 22, 2014, 07:14:40 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 22, 2014, 07:21:53 pm
But yes, that's how you set bodyguards for your commanders. A bit too much micro for my tastes, but it can be worth it if your opponent can use assassins.
Post by: RangerCado on December 22, 2014, 07:40:27 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 22, 2014, 07:43:28 pm
Post by: RangerCado on December 22, 2014, 07:48:12 pm
Worth noting that since a patch or two ago, seducers almost never assassinate. They either seduce or do nothing (with maybe a small chance of assassinating thrown in?). Makes seducers somewhat less useful as assassins, though I guess Pan will forever be a pain to siege out.Well, theres always the choice to either seduce or kill. Some nations such as Man have only female mages and high resist commanders. Your not likely to try seducing such an army, and are more likely to try and assassinate the mages.
Post by: Frumple on December 22, 2014, 08:05:25 pm
Most notable times to use Body Guards are against any nation that has hireable seducers or assassains in the first place, OR against nations who have several decent flying units.... or if one of the global assassination rituals goes up. By that point, a few summoned critters (or just particularly tough nationals) guarding your commanders can make the difference between your armies being left stranded and, well. Not. Also a possible salve against someone able and willing to spam earth attack at you.
Vengeful Waters is just one of the most beautiful things ever :3
Rest of 'em are pretty nasty, too. Usually pretty high up the research tiers, but still. S'kinda' struck me, watching folks talk about end-game stuff, that they don't come up in conversation very often. They definitely deserve some love. VW's the obvious one, but wild hunt, the... furies or whatever, etc., etc. They're all pretty nice, even late game.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 22, 2014, 09:11:50 pm
Well, theres always the choice to either seduce or kill. Some nations such as Man have only female mages and high resist commanders. Your not likely to try seducing such an army, and are more likely to try and assassinate the mages.
How many nations can make that choice? Not many I think. Off the top of my head I can think of Abysia (recruitable assassins, blood summon succubi).
Doing *nothing* is a very real choice for seducers if the target can't be seduced, in case you're not aware of it.
Post by: RangerCado on December 22, 2014, 09:56:22 pm
And as for nations with assassins/seducers... Outside of world rituals, those I can think of Early Age are Abysia, Pan, Bertyos, Lanka, and Mictan I believe. They all have assassins/seducers in the form of recruitable, or a viable summon. (Bertyos, Lanks, and Mictan being heavy blood nations)
Post by: E. Albright on December 23, 2014, 07:53:03 pm
Assassins are a lot more widespread; just look here (https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/?page=unit&showids=1&showmodcmds=1&showmoddinginfo=1&showkeys=1&unitcomp=2&unitkey=assassin&unitval=1&unitnat=1).
In fact, for seducers, just look here (https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/?page=unit&showids=1&showmodcmds=1&showmoddinginfo=1&showkeys=1&unitcomp=2&unitkey=succubus&unitval=1) and here (https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/?page=unit&showids=1&showmodcmds=1&showmoddinginfo=1&showkeys=1&unitcomp=2&unitkey=seduce&unitval=1).
So those nations with both would be Mari (ish/pretty much), Py (ish), Lanka (sorta), Abysia (pretty much), Xibalba (more or less), Mictlan (pretty much), BL (pretty much), and the Ruses, by my estimate. Although any blood-heavy nation can add themselves to this list through the magic of Black Hearts and Succubi.
One of the absolute best defenses against assassins (though by no means a foolproof one) is a couple of levels of Ench/Conj and if needed, a handful of gems. This obviously only works for certain sorts of mages, though. :P
Post by: Rez on December 23, 2014, 08:11:25 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 23, 2014, 08:21:07 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 23, 2014, 09:01:06 pm
Also makes the amulets really nice on just about anything sacred (not just assassins) if you've got an earth bless and they've got nothing better to do. Or just anything, if you've got the bless and are willing to make the gem outlay 5d5s :P
Or some variation of... other stuff. Minor reinvig's fairly common, and even two points of it nearly doubles the amount of skeletons an amulet can put out. Those amulets are really sexy :3
Post by: E. Albright on December 26, 2014, 09:15:45 am
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 27, 2014, 05:46:16 pm
Post by: Elfeater on December 27, 2014, 06:52:58 pm
Is there a game starting? Just picked up Dom4 from Steam and feel the need to dive right in without any testing on my part. Oh and on that note what are the most important bullet point differences from 3?There is a noob game starting up pretty soon
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 27, 2014, 07:01:55 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 27, 2014, 07:18:03 pm
In theory.Is there a game starting? Just picked up Dom4 from Steam and feel the need to dive right in without any testing on my part. Oh and on that note what are the most important bullet point differences from 3?There is a noob game starting up pretty soon
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 27, 2014, 08:15:00 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 27, 2014, 09:13:56 pm
Oh and on that note what are the most important bullet point differences from 3?
- A lot of the most powerful mages take 2 turns to recruit ("slow to recruit")
- All weapons have damage types, with different behaviors and the possibility of resistances
- Elemental resistence is numeric instead of percentage
- A ton of UI improvements
- Most gemgens now provide temporary battle gems instead of providing stockpilable gems
- A lot more useful spells, and a lot more that scale with caster power
- No more reverse communions
- Some nations have out-of-fort ("foreign") recruitment
- Forts are all the same per nation, regardless of terrain, but can be upgraded
- Terrain movement rules are slightly less forgiving
- ...I'm sure I'm forgetting several huge things, but...
Post by: Shadowlord on December 27, 2014, 10:21:00 pm
Post by: RexMundi on December 28, 2014, 12:22:24 am
Who is supposedly starting it?I am, thread is in play with your buddies. voting on map wrap, already decided early era. in the morning for me i'm genning like, 4-8 maps to vote on. while map voting i plan on pming people to confirm entries and set up llamaserver
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 28, 2014, 10:22:27 am
Post by: Vrky on December 28, 2014, 04:49:06 pm
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 29, 2014, 06:22:06 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 29, 2014, 07:45:22 pm
Damn, I missed the Steam sale :(
If you're itching for some MP action, 40% is still pretty good since we're not talking about a full 60$ price tag.
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 02, 2015, 11:19:30 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on January 03, 2015, 12:10:13 am
(As for being the prophet, hereticness is automatic, so their prophetness will cause temple checks and they can preach in an attempt to counter their hereticness, but I have never personally tried it and I'm not sure how effective it might be. You may want to check the manual to see if it lists the calculations and dice rolling that are done for each. I had the impression that heretics automatically reduced dominion by 1 each round, but that may not be the case.)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 03, 2015, 10:54:05 am
How does heretic interact with being the prophet. In round 14 I will be playing Machaka and it has 2 heretic mages and one is a disease healer and I was thinking it might be a good early prophet to keep my indie stompers from being diseased.
As far as I know they act entirely separately from each other so... Check the manual on how they work? As far as I can remember, prophets basically act as mobile temples, genering candles as they move around. I'm 95% certain that the mechanics for heretics are almost identical to preaching as normal, in that a Heretic (1) commander acts as a H1 priest preaching in the province, Heretic (2) as a H2 priest, etc. The only difference is that they reduce the dominion in a province instead of increasing it...
Though with that being said I wouldn't be surprised if having Heretic makes a commander impossible to be prophet-ized, or they'll lose it if they become the prophet. So I would experiment a bit and see what happens.
Post by: TripJack on January 07, 2015, 05:02:58 pm
next time another bay12 round starts count me in!
Post by: Criptfeind on January 08, 2015, 12:09:17 am
Post by: Frumple on January 08, 2015, 12:13:31 am
Post by: Karlito on January 08, 2015, 01:15:37 am
Post by: tompliss on January 08, 2015, 03:48:42 am
Post by: Kagus on January 08, 2015, 12:11:54 pm
I'm almost entirely certain that 90 of those hours were spent in Pretender Design. The rest are from leaving the game running while I had to head out and do errands.
I'm not very good at the game, never have been... But I managed to biff a couple Normal AIs while playing as LA R'lyeh, which for me is actually a milestone. Also got another game with Lanka where pretty much the only thing standing between me and ascension is the remaining paperwork, but that game's kinda on hold because I came up with different pretender designs, running a bunch of test games, can't be arsed managing the dozens upon dozens of commanders yadda yadda...
I guess I could say I'm having fun. I spent most of my time chewing my lip and frowning furiously at the screen while trying to squeeze every last drop of usefulness from those precious design points, only to start up a test run, play a few turns and go back to the drawing board because it didn't work as planned. I... Have a weird sense of "fun".
I've only ever played the demos to the previous games, but I dunno... Kinda almost feels like it's "degenerated", at least with the current state of some of the nations and such. Some things really do just look and feel like tacked-on fan mods. Berytos for example seems like it could be really nice, but... There's just something weird about it. Xibalba is hilarious in EA, tragic in MA, and... Basically undergoes no change for LA. And don't get me started on Ragha's lunacy...
Still though, here I am; with the legions upon legions of games named "EA", "MA" or "LA" depending on which era I'm poking around with, and gods named such creative things as "Test", "Jomon1" and "hhh". Come up with a looooot of quirky ideas... Some good, most bad, others... Still on the pretender list because I haven't made up my mind about them yet.
Dinnae suppose this would be the place to seek out should I feel like ranting about whatever harebrained idea I've come up with for a build, or discussing scales and tactics for ye olde variouse nationes?
EDIT: P.S. Asphodel is broken as fuck.
Post by: Frumple on January 08, 2015, 03:02:24 pm
And... just throwing it out there, but while pretender design is important, it's not that important :P
Post by: Criptfeind on January 08, 2015, 03:34:27 pm
Post by: Kagus on January 08, 2015, 06:13:30 pm
And... just throwing it out there, but while pretender design is important, it's not that important :P
YES IT IS!
Now, get out of my way, peasant... I have to go run some more tests.
Post by: jhxmt on January 08, 2015, 06:17:50 pm
I already love this game.
Post by: BFEL on January 08, 2015, 06:21:50 pm
Specifically I want to know how you guys deal with the whole "searching for magic sites" thing. I have the bad habit of simply NEVER DOING IT and thus end up being left floundering magic-wise outside of LA Ermor games.
So what would you guys suggest to break me out of this stupid thing I (don't) do?
Post by: Criptfeind on January 08, 2015, 06:27:14 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 08, 2015, 06:30:07 pm
So what would you guys suggest to break me out of this stupid thing I (don't) do?
...
Search for magic sites more? Not sure how I can put it less obvious, but... yeah. Maybe 12~ turns in, rename one of your mages to 'Searcher' and site search with them? The name makes it obvious what they're supposed to be doing in case you ever are confused, and since you already have one site searcher running about you'll probably remember to get some more running about too. That's the best I can suggest.
Post by: E. Albright on January 08, 2015, 06:41:52 pm
Post by: Kagus on January 08, 2015, 07:48:58 pm
But yeah, I like to use site search spells a lot... Part laziness, part impatience. Takes a minimum of two turns for a mage to first travel to the province and then search it (frequently more), while remote searching is just the one turn.
...unfortunately, it also has a nasty habit of burning a lot of the resources you hope to gain from doing just that. Unless it's Voice of Tiamat.
Post by: Frumple on January 08, 2015, 08:11:06 pm
If you're really lazy about searching, and especially if you're playing Dom3 where rituals don't have range limits, use "M" to set a couple of mages on infinite sitesearch spellcasting duty. It's zero effort even if it's only one path at a time and costs more than manual searching.Echo this for D3. Usually a pretty good use for indie mages, even, if you've got floating boosters that aren't seeing more productive use. As noted, bit more expensive gem wise, but it's usually significantly more efficient mage-time wise, which has its place.
Also can hope you luck upon a conj. site, then spew akashic knowledge or whatever that is all over the place. Or get clams rolling and do that anyway, since you'll be drowning in pearls... pretty sure vanilla D3 never got around to limiting gemgens. Spell's usually ridiculously inefficient, gem wise, but if you've got a bunch of spare pearls and nothing better to do with 'em...
Post by: Kagus on January 08, 2015, 08:29:32 pm
Yeah, pretty sure Dom3 ran on the same unlimited system as the predecessors. At least clams were changed to 3W1N, rather than the hilarious 2W Lesser Magical Item they were in the first game. Ahh, Dominions 1... So much hysterical bullshit. Also in Dom3 I think Akashic Record (the site search was called Record there, they still had fully open score graphs) only cost 10 pearls, rather than the 25 it costs in Dom4.
Post by: Frumple on January 08, 2015, 08:31:30 pm
Post by: thepodger on January 08, 2015, 08:47:10 pm
Think of all the summons and battlemagic you could cast with that entire game's worth of site searching. How many more mages you can front if two mage turns is turning out four path searching.
It's a horrible waste and its the first step on the path toward winning a game of Dominions.
Site searching spells are the crack cocaine of the Dominions universe--terrible end game and hard to stop once you start.
^^
lol
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 08, 2015, 08:52:56 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 08, 2015, 09:39:17 pm
No! Do NOT use site searching spells. You will waste HUNDREDS upon hundreds of gems and mage turns doing that. A level 1 mage will find almost every site in the game--astral is the only exception.
Actually, a level 1 will only find around 60% of sites, and that's pretty uniform across paths. A level 2 will find around 90%.
As to whether you're burning mage-turns or just gems, that mostly comes down to your national paths. If you don't have a lot of mages with multiple low paths, you'll be sending multiple mages out to search so the mage-turn argument breaks down. The gems argument is not as clearcut as it first seems either, as it takes at least twice as long to search for a single path with roving mages instead of spells, and those extra turns you'll not be gaining income from whatever sites you find. So while the spells are expensive, they're effectively less expensive than the list price because of their speed. They also don't require you putting your mage at risk to search, so for rare mages that's a major point in their favor. They also can be handy when an event suggests a hidden site is lurking in a particular area.
Generally, I'd not recommend going as crazy with site-searching spells in Dom4 as in Dom3, particularly for nations with mages boasting multiple low paths. But the sitesearching spells have their place, and their uses. And as Il Palazzo points out, if you don't use them, then how will you know when you've found everything?!?!?!?
Post by: Culise on January 08, 2015, 09:45:49 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on January 08, 2015, 09:49:29 pm
Post by: thepodger on January 08, 2015, 10:17:49 pm
There's a good breakdown of why site searching rules and how to make the most of it right here:
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/site-searching-by-path-level-an-empirical-study
Are thrones more likely to have magic sites by the way? Specially high level thrones?I haven't done a test but it sure seems that way. If you're gonna exhaustively search a province, it's probably most worth it to remote search those.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 08, 2015, 10:52:57 pm
Are thrones more likely to have magic sites by the way? Specially high level thrones?
The link that Thepodger provided has the answer. All thrones, regardless of level, have +20% to site chance, identical to the bonus that waste provinces get. So thrones will most likely have more sites than normal. It also means that waste provinces are slightly more valuable than at first glance, since they may have more sites to generate gems. Which helps to compensate for the fact that they're terrible at everything else.
Post by: E. Albright on January 09, 2015, 12:55:12 am
As long as each mage has more than two paths, the mage turn argument is valid. Every three path mage searches three paths every two turns. Every site search remote spell searches one path every turn. The more 3+ path mages you send out searching, the larger the more turns saved. You're not thinking.
This assumes no wasted turns for backtracking, etc. This also assumes that you value all gems equally. This critically assumes that you'll have multipath mages in convenient, non-overlapping combinations for all paths you're interested in (which is very much an unreasonable assumption grounded in pure theorycrafting, especially since a non-trivial number of nations have at most two-path or two-path plus holy or random-path mages - and since you aren't always going to be searching for sites from mages you can just recruit more of). And if you're allowed to throw more mages at the problem, you're still not getting away from the fact that each mage only searches one province every other turn; more remote sitesearchers mean more every-turn searches, and depending on searcher path levels, you're not missing 10-40% of sites (and those being missed are more likely to be recruitment or multigem sites) - and you're getting the gems sooner. You're not thinking either.
OTOH, remote searching is range-limited - for some paths brutally so. And it requires a modest research investment before you start. And most paths require at least two levels to cast the spells, and all need seed gems to start searching. And that of course is beyond the normal gem and potential time cost.
Neither option is all good, but neither is either all bad. A hybrid approach is best. Sweep with multipath mages as is convenient and possible, remote sitesearch for thoroughness as you can and as circumstances encourage or demand. I entirely agree that in general it's better to base your sitesearching on manual searches. But remote sitesearching is not the worst thing evar, nor so grossly inefficient that you'll wreck yourself if you use it regularly, etc. It's caffeine, not crack. It's bad for you to use too much of it, and if you use it in exclusion to everything else it's inefficient and will give you a headache - and if you've used too much, stopping using it will give you a headache. But it has its place and it has its value.
Post by: thepodger on January 09, 2015, 01:21:05 am
Lastly, you're at best arguing that searching has more variables, not that remote spells are worth a wet fart. Remote search by all means at thrones and areas that you believe may harbor something tasty. But outside of that, it's a waste of gems.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2015, 02:55:01 am
EDIT: P.S. Asphodel is broken as fuck.
At least they no longer get 100g temples, or so I hear. But yes, Asphodel is pretty bonkers :P
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2015, 06:19:09 am
Dominions provinces are not exactly a rat maze. Plotting a course without overlap is trivial.
Early on when you're plotting a route through the non-terrifying indie provinces it can sometimes be tricky, but still that's only talk of one or two turns lost. I do still think Voice of Tiamat is worth mentioning, as it finds all sites of all elemental magic in ocean provinces, and as the underwater nations can frequently have some issue putting out site searchers that cover all those bases I think it's actually fairly reasonable for the 8 water gem cost. Plus, there are only so many ocean provinces, so even if you're a perfectionist you're not gonna be using it nearly much as the land spells.
I'm running a little quirk pretender design test where I'm using a fountain of blood to try and jumpstart Yomi into some blood production. This is mostly just a test run to see if End of Culture/Weakness are at all worth using, and more importantly to see whether or not they affect "normal" demons as well as the oni. I noticed a province was going berserk with massive unrest problems, and I'd already searched for death sites, so I had my immobile pretender (who had just woken up and was the only blood mage I had available) run a bowl of blood on the province. Sure 'nuff, demon gate site. Even better, that same turn I miraculously wound up getting a bloodhenge druid random event so I even had someone I could pop over there to start summoning fiends.
Immobile pretenders with paths your nationals don't get is not exactly a great argument, but it is potentially one of the times when it could be used.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2015, 07:08:45 am
Beyond that, my most used search spell is the S one. Thaumaturgy is rarely a priority path for me, while evocations is almost standard. In addition you only need S1 while most spells require X2. It's also "only" 3 pearls per cast as opposed to 4 gems some others cost. It's still not my preferred way to search for S, but finding a random S is common enough that I find myself casting astral probing a lot more often than any of the other spells.
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 09, 2015, 07:27:52 am
Remote search by all means at thrones and areas that you believe may harbor something tasty. But outside of that, it's a waste of gems.BUT WHAT IF YOU MISS A SITE? WHAT THEN EINSTEIN, HUH?? HOW CAN YOU CARRY ON LIVING?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on January 09, 2015, 08:17:08 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 09, 2015, 08:35:50 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2015, 08:40:15 am
If such a thing as "too many pearls" existed then I guess, but I've never hit that ceiling.
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2015, 09:11:45 am
That's when I use them most often, when I have a rare non-national path mage. When I have 20 provinces and one mage it's a lot more appealing to just start spell searching rather than marching all over.
Beyond that, my most used search spell is the S one. Thaumaturgy is rarely a priority path for me, while evocations is almost standard. In addition you only need S1 while most spells require X2. It's also "only" 3 pearls per cast as opposed to 4 gems some others cost. It's still not my preferred way to search for S, but finding a random S is common enough that I find myself casting astral probing a lot more often than any of the other spells.
Isn't Astral also one of the two paths that has ultra-rare level 5 sites? There you have it, it simply must be done!
Also, god damn but searching was a pain and a half in Dom 1... You'd either have to manually write down which provinces had been searched by what, or risk re-checking a province you'd just been over. Didn't have the handy-dandy icons we have now to show which places have been checked for what. Also if you were casting remote spells, you had to type in the province number manually, no clicking on the map.
Although, Dom1 was also the only one to feature that seriously cool dynamic map that would actually change to reflect the scales affecting particular provinces.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2015, 09:13:43 am
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2015, 09:37:04 am
This was from an earlier version though, I don't know if they've changed it around for Dom4. Also, the spreadsheet I saw that pointed this out appears to no longer exist, as is sadly the case with all number of Dominions-related information pages...
Post by: lijacote on January 09, 2015, 09:40:45 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2015, 09:53:48 am
Post by: lijacote on January 09, 2015, 09:57:23 am
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2015, 11:18:37 am
The inspector (http://dom4editor.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/inspector/index.html) is perfectly good for checking sites out. Also for items, units, spells...
Damnit, this is *precisely* what I've been looking for, but none of my searches have turned up so much as a whiff of this. Thanks, I'm gonna go get lost in the data mining for a while now...
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2015, 11:31:11 am
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2015, 12:29:48 pm
Seriously, this thing even lets me pin various items to a clipboard for easy reference. I'm in love.
EDIT: ...it never occurred to me before that someone could decide to interpret the spell "Black Servant" as racially insensitive.
Post by: Frumple on January 09, 2015, 02:11:05 pm
If such a thing as "too many pearls" existed then I guess, but I've never hit that ceiling.I definitely have in SP. Given the right variables, it's possible to get your pearl income to rise faster than you can spend it. Definitely late game and clam/wish spam and whatnot, but it's possible. This is especially true if you're a nation with somewhat limited astral access -- if you've got a slow trickle of able astral mages and don't want to go empowerment crazy, it's pretty easy to slip 25S in the casting queue and still be building a surplus or have all your other casters going full blast without running out of resources.
It's also fairly fine to use it if you've got a significant advantage and want some win more. Particularly if you're mainlining other paths. If you're not doing anything with the astral, might as well sitesearch with it >_>
It's definitely a bit of a "stars align" thing, though.
Though yeah, you silly people haven't really mentioned the actual major advantage to site search spells: Significantly less micromanagement. M is considerably less moving parts than ferrying around some crud load of mages and hoping nothing kills them while they're twiddling their thumbs waiting to get places. Frumple is perfectly willing to trade some efficiency for having less things to pay attention to. Especially later in the game where a single moment of inattention can cause entire fronts to collapse... spending a little gem on some sanity management is a pretty damned good investment, imo.
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2015, 03:11:28 pm
EDIT: Writing that made me realize that I also haven't done that in any of the new test run games I popped up just now. Dammit.
Post by: E. Albright on January 09, 2015, 06:56:29 pm
Dominions provinces are not exactly a rat maze. Plotting a course without overlap is trivial.
It's really not. Once you run out of provinces to search, or have to run for a fort ahead of an invasion, your path is suddenly nothing but overlapping provinces. An inconvenient truth, I know, but a vexing one when your argument ran along the lines of "every mageturn is sacred and X1Y1Z1 searches THREE TIMES per TWO TURNS lol".
Manual searching is generally more efficient than remote, but the comparison is not a "zomg best thing EVAR" vs. "a wet fart" as you would have us believe.
Though yeah, you silly people haven't really mentioned the actual major advantage to site search spells: Significantly less micromanagement. M is considerably less moving parts than ferrying around some crud load of mages and hoping nothing kills them while they're twiddling their thumbs waiting to get places. Frumple is perfectly willing to trade some efficiency for having less things to pay attention to. Especially later in the game where a single moment of inattention can cause entire fronts to collapse... spending a little gem on some sanity management is a pretty damned good investment, imo.
Ya know what? Yeah, THIS. Because less micro was the precise reason I suggested using the spells (especially in Dom3) to BFEL. So hurumph. Yes, manual sitesearching is generally better for the player in terms of competative efficiency, with caveats discussed above, but it's much worse in terms of quality-of-life and automation. And if you have someone who just doesn't/forgets to sitesearch, you're not getting enough increased efficiency to help when their manual searchers take 3-6 turns to search 2 provinces for 3 paths at level 1 because they don't remember to move/search. So again, hurumph.
For maximal gemcost/magetime efficiency to find a moderate amount of sites, manually search with some spells on the side. For maximal consistency/playertime efficiency to lol find evarthin, Shift-M and forget it.
Post by: E. Albright on January 09, 2015, 07:00:24 pm
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2015, 07:58:28 pm
I notice one of my longbowmen lost an arm to a stray vine arrow. He's still shooting. Apparently, you don't need two hands to operate a bow. I... Guess he's just nocking it with his teeth or something.
I also learned that just because the Horned One has beastmaster +3 doesn't mean it actually applies to the free chaffimals he gets at the start of battle. Apparently, he's not actually the one leading them... Just like how Bogarus PD aren't actually led by that fancypants Knyaz who shows up at 20 defence, and thus have to stick with their usual piss-poor morale.
...I should probably stop trying to find expansion SC's in pretenders that aren't. But dragons are just so damned dull, man...
EDIT: Okay, I'm almost 99% certain that this is unintended behavior... LA Xibalba, the Way commander gets a shapechange ability, apparently supposed to be a result of their training with the Nahualli or whatever... And the fluff text says they're supposed to be able to turn into mighty jaguars or somesuch.
Thing is, they don't. They can shapechange into Ah Itzob, another one of Xibalba's indistinguishable batmages. They keep all their paths, lost the -4 inept researcher penalty, get paid less upkeep... And can't change back. Stats-wise, they're exactly the same except for 1 less MR.
Ahh, gotta love hamfisted mod-nations... Even when they're made official.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 10, 2015, 06:33:33 pm
In fact why won't I link to the patchlog here:
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/dom4/dom4log.html
A few personal picks I feel like highlighting:
-Dominion spread chance changed to 50% + dom str*5% (as opposed to the current formula of dom str*10%)
-Pretender cost finetuning
-Pretender stat changes
-New Monster Pretenders
-Monster pretender fixes
While it remains to be seen just what kind of pretender cost & stat changes end up taking place, I'm cautiously optimistic. Maybe I'll actually want to make non-dragon, non-titan, non-immobile pretenders after the next patch.
Post by: Kagus on January 10, 2015, 07:23:22 pm
That said, there are some special pretenders that bear mentioning... Sorta. The Machakan giant fetish is a pretty funny one, especially since it's Dom4 and 50 points, while having the health and protection of a monolith or the like.
...he will literally swing and miss an elephant in combat though.
Post by: chaoticag on January 10, 2015, 08:24:03 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 10, 2015, 09:56:40 pm
That said, there are some special pretenders that bear mentioning... Sorta. The Machakan giant fetish is a pretty funny one, especially since it's Dom4 and 50 points, while having the health and protection of a monolith or the like.
It's also mindless, which means a whole bunch of traditional SC counters do nothing to it.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 11, 2015, 08:15:57 am
Granted dom2 would be fairly extreme, I'd probably consider dom4 the minimum to take, possibly even more than that if/when the meta proves it inadequate. Certainly something to keep in mind if you end up in a game with many blood saccers.
Post by: Kagus on January 11, 2015, 08:51:50 am
That said, there are some special pretenders that bear mentioning... Sorta. The Machakan giant fetish is a pretty funny one, especially since it's Dom4 and 50 points, while having the health and protection of a monolith or the like.
It's also mindless, which means a whole bunch of traditional SC counters do nothing to it.
Plus the whole 0 encumbrance thing for when it actually goes out a-stompin'. That, and I think it's just kinda entertaining having a mindless pretender...
EDIT: Only just found out now that horror marks don't affect mindless units, that's a pretty significant change right there... Think I'm starting to get what you're talking about.
Also, you know what gets my goat? Important commanders, particularly in the early game, who decide to pick up items after a battle that are perhaps not quite as beneficial as they think. Like, say, the Son of the Dragon King hero randomly nabbing a leper rod after an indy fight, and then proceeding to uselessly waste away afterwards.
Also just had an oracle of the ancients grab a knife of the damned, because he needs that apparently...
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 15, 2015, 05:00:56 pm
Hello, I am new to Dominions 4. So new, in fact, that I don't actually own it yet. I skipped on buying it when it recently was on sale on Steam, because the nature of the game as described wasn't terribly appealing to me, even if the setting and premise of it was. The demo of Dominions 3 I tried out on a recommendation did nothing to convince me otherwise.
But since curiosity is a harsh mistress, here I am trying my hand at something silly using an "evaluation copy" of Dominions 4, trying to see if my decision not to buy it was wholly justified.
So far, the game proves to be entirely as over-complicated and willfully impenetrable as I expected it would be. The manual goes to great lengths to tell me that in order to be proficient at the game, I need to basically pre-formulate my entire strategy and playstyle with the race I'm going to choose, and the Pretender I'm going to make - before actually seeing any of the units or spells available.
My first attempts at "playing it by ear" have predictably ended... poorly. The game does nothing to facilitate the mentioned pre-formulation of strategy and playstyle, and even though the manual-guided tutorial helped at least to understand the interface conventions and gameplay principles, I'm still sometimes left with a feeling that I'm fighting the game more than the enemy. At this rate I probably will stand by my original judgement and refrain from buying this game even if it goes on sale again. I appreciate the depth and breadth of strategic options, the setting and the lore, the concept and even the approach to it, sacrificing graphics in order to focus on the mechanics. But this much micromanagement, and the attitude that the player must by design come into the game with a plan already formulated rather than being able to formulate and adapt strategies on the fly (exacerbated by the lack of ingame tools to facilitate such plan-making), really mark this as "not my kind of game".
As of this moment, I'm trying to see if ditching advanced civ-building strategies and treating the whole thing as just another fantasy 4X TBS will in any way work. My nation is Middle Ages Man, my pretender is Great Big Rock the Monolith, starting awake with a point in most magics (except Blood and Death) and most positive scales (except luck), with 5 dominion. Just going to crank out an army and conquer the bloody continent through sword and sorcery. Let's see how this goes...
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 15, 2015, 06:52:36 pm
There's this (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/) tool to peruse the assets available to a nation (out of game of course!). Pretty handy if you don't want to start a game just to see what each nation can and can't get. In addition, before any "real" game it's fairly customary to run short test games (I do 10-20 turns) to see what works and what doesn't (what if any kind of bless? scales? what scales? research priorities etc.).
So while the interface is crummy as hell, people don't actually play things going in blind.
PvP is mostly about adapting your strategies on the fly. Each nation has certain strengths and weakness and pretenders can focus or diversify those. This is most evident in the midgame, once people have some decent research in a couple of different schools of magic. In a multiplayer game here I'm playing a nation with a ton of skeletons. People have started countering them with specific anti-undead spells. I can switch back to using recruitable soldiers, I can start using spells that improve the mobility of my skeletons. I can try to spread my undead wider than my opponents can their anti-undead mages. I can use remote attack spells to kill off enemy mages from several provinces away. I can recruit assassin's to try and do the same (admittedly non-magical assassin's aren't in vogue right now).
There's plenty that I can do, despite having a very focused nation (strong air magic, undead reanimation). And this whole back and forth countering and counter-countering is what keeps me (most of us?) playing the game.
Now it is true that you generally need mages and research to adapt (those anti-undead spells require specific paths and a specific research to become available), so adapting on a turn-by-turn basis might not always happen (army scripting & recruiting aside). But Over the course of a few turns things definitely shake up. Talking about that same multiplayer match; I was recently fighting 1v1 against an opponent. I was gearing my research, recruitment and manoeuvring to counter everything he was throwing at me. Very recently I was attacked on another front, by another nation requiring me to adjust what I was doing to counter the new threats that became apparent.
Some things to note about Dominions:
It's a fairly war focused strategy game. In something like Civ you could just settle a few cities and turtle until science victory. That isn't how Dominions is played. You recruit units and start attacking independents. Indies die, you start attacking and killing other nations. He who kills best and most efficiently tends to win.
I've seen some people get turned away due to expecting something this game isn't. This game isn't really about playing Middle Age Man and building your own little feudal empire. It's about using Middle Age Man to kill the Cthulhu, the Spanish Inquisition and the Samurai Orcs.
And yeah, there's a learning curve. Both for the interface itself as well as some basic concepts. I consider myself to 'wing it' a lot, but I've played for over a year now. Just like in music, improvisation isn't a skill for the very beginners. But worry not, it took me my first MP game to fail horribly and wrap my head around some things. Progress for me was fairly fast paced as I played and learned stuff through SP testing and MP failures (and eventual successes).
If you have any difficulties wrapping your head around things, don't be shy and ask. I'd like the think there's enough reasonably skilled and polite folks here to answer any questions you may have.
Post by: Kagus on January 15, 2015, 07:43:21 pm
It's definitely not for everyone, and it might still not even be for me (I know I'm certainly not going to be particularly "good" at it), but I'm glad I did at least give it a shot so I could sate my curiosity and my thirst for designing new/weird things.
I have been winging quite a few things, and most of the time it crashes and burns terribly and I basically have to go back to the drawing board and start a new test game... Other times, I wind up with some pretty nifty stuff like the thing I just tried out in this semi-serious singleplayer game I'm playing as Lemuria.
Basically, my armies are a massive amount of undead soldiers. I managed to get caught up in a vicious land war with C'tis, a living nation who has apparently been dedicating themselves to producing some several thousand ghouls during the first parts of the game... So basically my dead guys get caught up on their dead guys while their superpriests bomb the everloving fuck out of my armies. It's been tough.
I've got this one dude though, a random event astral mage (technically living) who just showed up randomly because he'd apparently predicted my victory and wanted to be part of it. I had him cast ritual of returning, slapped a couple boosters and a pocket full of pearls on him, and told him to teleport off on top of one of the enemy armies.
First time I did this, I just scripted him to cast solar brilliance (battlefield-wide spell that burns undead and blinds the living) and then returning, but that didn't go too well. He cast solar brilliance on the useless province defense, as the big army was apparently hiding inside a castle just over the hill beyond where he'd teleported to. And then he promptly passed out, because he couldn't use enough pearls to mitigate the fatigue cost and wound up blacking out, whereupon he was summarily picked apart.
Luckily, I had another guy just like him, so I did the same thing just with the pre-prepped ritual of returning. And also picked a province without a fort.
What happened this time was that I basically chunked half their dead army in that zone, while also blinding absolutely everybody so they were just bumping about uselessly on the field. My mage got a bum leg from having a blind dog bite him, but he's alive and off on library duty now... But the best part is that C'tis was apparently planning on using precisely that army to march in and take one of my provinces, but because of how the "phases" in the game work, my mage basically intercepted them before they got there. So now the only ones showing up were a bunch of half-burned, blind ghouls being led by mages who could barely plant a spell in my general direction of the battlefield, let alone near any of my important units.
I was pretty impressed with myself. That match as a whole? I'm still in a tough spot but I don't want to work with it at all because it's such a goddamn nightmare moving everyone around every damn turn...
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 17, 2015, 07:05:55 am
My little "Imperium of Man" game still rolls along nicely so far. I don't have much magic at all (mostly summoning and crafting. and the remote-site-search spells), so I use the medieval man's answer to a fireball - a good longbow. My armies are primarily archers (and midget crossbowmen) supported by screens of infantry and cavalry/summons as heavy hitters. Got quite a few werewolves among my ranks, I find they work well thematically with Cu-Sidhe. Gave a swamp drake the Gift of Reason and a squad of more swamp drakes. Just goofing around at this point. Jotunheim is almost pushed off out little island, Machaka is blocked by mountains in the north (though seem to be gearing up to fight us), and some other country I can't remember the name of is holed up in the south. My dominion is kinda weak, but its effects are weak in the first place, so as long as some of it remains I'm not too worried.
I guess looking at that long list of spells and units that potentially form interactions, then saying "screw this noise" and stomping on everyone's heads with good old massed ground troops is also a viable gameplay strategy in this case. :) (likely won't hold up against anyone but the Normal AI's I'm playing against, but eh. :P)
Post by: E. Albright on January 17, 2015, 07:53:26 am
Post by: Kagus on January 17, 2015, 08:02:44 am
Unless things have changed recently, MA Ulm is basically all about stomping all across the map early on with their footsoldiers before anybody's really had a chance to push out their weak and unmanly "magic".
On a completely different note, trying to design a decent pretender for Ur is... Proving difficult. Trying to find what Ur's strengths actually are...
Even worse though is trying to design a pretender for Jomon. Aren't enough pretender points in the world!
Post by: E. Albright on January 17, 2015, 08:09:50 am
I'd agree that MA Ulm is the premier "just smash it" nation. MA Marignon is a decently straightforward starter nation, too, though they might tempt you to start fussing about with "spells" and "magic"...
Post by: Kagus on January 17, 2015, 08:58:05 am
And on top of that, it'd be great to have some "in" to death magic so you can get the ghost generals (oni aren't worth thinking about summoning) and possibly Gozu-Mezu.
I've really wanted to get into Jomon, but the pretender design has been stumping me... Haven't had a chance to try out Jomonese reverse communions yet.
Post by: E. Albright on January 17, 2015, 09:15:32 am
(When the last master departs the battlefield, one way or another, all slaves get a big fat pile of Paralyze. This was the devs' way of clarifying quite thoroughly that reverse communions were a bug, not a feature.)
Post by: Kagus on January 17, 2015, 09:20:00 am
Well, good to know. My dreams of a bunch of onmyo-ji led by a teaching sign and meditation sign monk (and possibly another onmyo to cast PotS, provided that stacks) are apparently misplaced... Well, now I don't have to worry quite so much about trying to get them off the ground, heh.
On a completely unrelated note, I don't know if I'll ever be able to actually take order-misfortune on MA Man ever again... The Ettin King is just too fantastic a hero to pass up.
EDIT: And since we're on the topic of buzzkills, I suppose it's also unintended behavior that insane commanders can proclaim themselves to be your prophet, and actually become one?
Post by: E. Albright on January 17, 2015, 09:41:34 am
(Inconvenient as it is, I actually love the idea of random insane prophets, so if non-Dreamlands nations do that too, I'm perfectly happy about that.)
....oh. So, basically, Meditation Sign is completely worthless.
Well, you could still use a matrix to put a monk with it into a communion and just spam it for five rounds, and it should reduce all the slaves' fatigue by (15 - shared fatigue cost) per casting. It'd still increase communion longevity even though it wouldn't be so gruesomely abusive as a reverse communion, but still...
Post by: Kagus on January 17, 2015, 11:34:47 am
Also, didn't find out until just today that the meditation sign only reduces fatigue by 15... I thought it was as hilarious as the other signs and was basically a free version of reinvigoration. Didn't look at it in the inspector until just earlier.
Also, apparently scales don't "equalize" like I thought they used to... If a dominion-affected province goes to not being in any dominion, the scales won't change until/unless something else moves them. I thought they all just moved towards neutral values if no dominion or sites were affecting them.
Kinda puts a wrench in my ideas regarding a shit-scales LA Pythium. By tanking the scales I could put out an awake virtue with D9 to beef up the hydras for even more expansion, plus a dash of blood to help bootstrap into that and also use blood feast to remove any afflictions she DOES manage to get.
The idea was to plant labs in high-income provinces and then start stacking up the heretics to remove my polluting dominion from them so I could keep up the income and population. Gave me a reason to make a bunch of revelers (the most effective heretics), which gives an early blood income from the randoms going out and hunting the "bad" provinces. I wanted a bunch of blood random revelers, because if you give one an armor of twisting thorns, they can cast Blood Fecundity and start actually making those dominionless provinces grow and be even more profitable.
The hunted provinces would get a fair amount of unrest, especially since with death scales I was basically just trying to squeeze as much blood out of them before they withered away anyways. Fantastically, Pythium gets that serpent assassin who costs 60 gold and counts as 25 soldiers when patrolling, making them fantastic partners for the blood provinces.
My main problem, as I found out, was that the drain scales in the affected provinces weren't budging, and there's no way to really fix that. As I said, I was expecting the scales to neutralize after a while... Clearly, some altercations are necessary.
EDIT: Hmm... Is it just me, or are there more critters that can actually survive getting the "lost the head" affliction than before? I'unno, I've just got an ao-oni running around with no head. ...and that nonexistent head apparently only has one eye in it, as he also has the "lost an eye" affliction.
And he's mute. And feebleminded. I suppose these are all symptoms of not having a head...
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 19, 2015, 01:13:36 pm
Plus Agartha has taken residence in the oceans that I don't have access to yet, and Machaka is almost literally burning their gold, they've built three castles while I'm besieging the one they built near my territory.
But at least Jotunheim is gone. Ultimately I wasn't even the one to do them in, even if I did all of the actual damage. I killed their Pretender fairly early on, and without their god, prophet, or any temples, eventually the much-stronger-than-mine dominions of the other two nations squashed the final shreds of Jotunheim's presence out of existence. I'm making sure to keep at least a token presence up, with that in mind. :)
Right now my armies are stretched a little thin, so I'm using the time of relative balance to accrue some gems, make some items to upgrade a few of my mages, and start making some manuals of water-breathing so I can take Agartha out of the ocean. I'm considering just getting a force together and taking one of the two remaining thrones, which should give me victory, but... that would require actually having a prophet. I lost two prophets to ridiculous tactical mishaps (once he was taken out by a province defense archer volley, from amidst his own gaggle of longbowmen, the other time I forgot to change his orders to account for him no longer fighting with other generals, so a pair of flanking heavy cavalry got to him while everyone else engaged the rest of the forces), and with all the military moving around, none of my generals can spare a turn to prophetify themselves. :|
If there's one thing the game's good at, it's wasting my free time. :P
I'm playing a small random map against just four normal AIs. I shudder to imagine what sort of fustercluck a larger game against real people can devolve into.
Post by: Kagus on January 19, 2015, 01:42:27 pm
As far as prophets go, y'all may wanna consider summoning/finding something a bit beefier or sneakier to prophetize next time, heh... Humies tend to die. A lot. As I'm sure you've noticed...
If you managed to find some death mages lying around, Conjuration 1 will get you Black Servants, who are sneaky little undeads who can make for decent-ish prophets. Prophet dominion spread works when they're stealthed in enemy lands, and any undead or demon commander with priest levels can reanimate the dead. Worth considering.
Also, I was under the impression that uniknights aren't sacred anymore, they're just stupidly expensive... Really strong, but also really expensive.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 19, 2015, 01:45:18 pm
I'm playing a small random map against just four normal AIs. I shudder to imagine what sort of fustercluck a larger game against real people can devolve into.
People are mostly diplomatic enough that you can avoid total free-for-alls that AI fights succumb into.
Not that it gets any less chaotic when you've got nations that can fly or sneak or sail anywhere. And that's before you factor in the many spells that allow for even more strategic mobility :P
Also you don't actually need anyone special to be your prophet. Unless you're extremely low on gold, you could just recruit some random independent scout or a commander and prophetize them. Those guys are a dime in a dozen. Or you could summon a black hawk (Call of the Winds, A2 spell at conjuration-3) and prophetize it. It's a bit fragile chassis but it can fly if you value the mobility.
And no, unicorn knights aren't sacred (only sacred units can be blessed). And since your bless is dependant on the magic your pretender took at game start it may or may not be worth recruiting and blessing your sacreds.
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 19, 2015, 02:01:10 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 19, 2015, 02:42:15 pm
Also, only the first prophet was the regular human. The second one (the one one-shotted by the opening volley of militia archers) was a Lord Warden. Don't even ask me how the single volley of arrows got to him. Must've been a little beat up. Now I propheted the unicorn-mounted Knight Commander of Avalon, let's see something one-shot that.
...
I'll make him some fancy armor, just in case. Maybe that helmet that autocasts lightning bolts...
Also, speaking of beat-up, what was the most pathetic "victory" in a battle you've secured? Right now I had this downright epic showdown between two massive armies - one mine, a legion of archers (and crossbow midgets) with unicorn cavalry and dual-wielding wardens poised to storm the gateway, and some priests with a Crone of Avalon supplying magical intervention, all brought together by a variety of commanders, including some of the more basic ones like the two Castellians in charge of the archers, and the Hornburg Champion in charge of the midget brigade.
The other army is a much larger, numerically, mishmash of Machakan weirdness, mostly giant spiders and warriors, some archers, several giants and trolls, and of course a large supply of their own mages, who bring out their fire elementals and earth elementals during the fight, and of course there are the castle towers that shoot arrows at us.
So, the battle opens about like I expect it. The crone gets an air shield above her, the priests and daughters do their various blesses/songs, the cavalry and infantry wait, because next the sun is blotted out by arrows, and the Machakan side of the battle suddenly has far less infantry and archers in it. This happens another time for the second round that the melee fighters wait, my archers softening up the defenders while the mages do their various support spells and the castle towers fail to kill anyone of import.
Next, the cavalry charges in... and gets stuck in the doorway thanks to spiders that net it in place. The battle is basically a farce for the next few turns, because the unicorn knights are tough, the spiders are not, and the towers keep firing at us while my longbowmen expend arrows on shooting things and the crone tosses various lightning bolts into the pileup. Between getting unstuck and stuck again, the cavalry and wardens manage to take out some of the bigger monsters. The huge forest giant/troll thing, its accomplices, two fire elementals, an earth elemental, and most of the gaggle of spiders, all go down. At about this point the castle towers finally succeed in killing the crone, and the commander in charge of the knights and wardens. The Machakas are already mostly fleeing, the longbowmen having destroyed almost everyone else, but now the longbowmen are out of arrows, and the towers are starting to rack up kills. Longbowmen flee. Midgets flee. Almost everyone flees on both sides, while the towers happily plink at anyone in range.
The only unit left on the Machakas side is a Black Hunter, the huge black spider. The only units left on our side, the only ones that didn't flee... are the two Castellians and the Hornburg Champion. With nobody else in range, the towers focus fire on our three remaining units. And our three remaining units go full honey badger and plod across the whole space between the wall and the last Machaka spider, while being pelted by masses of arrows. Just the three of them, two humans and a hobbit. This little fellowship, my three last units in the battle, end up winning the fight against the giant spider, and the whole storming of the castle with it.
So... yeah. While that might actually be pretty cool and badass if taken as a story, that fight was a total disaster. Almost all Knights and Wardens were lost, the surviving longbowmen are scattered to the winds, and I'm down two commanders, a priest, and a Crone of Avalon.
Thankfully, that wasn't nearly my biggest army. :P
Post by: Frumple on January 19, 2015, 02:47:18 pm
Post by: Kagus on January 19, 2015, 03:38:49 pm
I've had a few "victories" where one of my expansion forces gets stomped by indies, but then for some bizarre reason the entire defending army gets the spooks and runs for the hills. Both armies retreat, but the independent one leaves the map first because my only survivors are crippled or limping and can't make it off the battlefield fast enough to lose in time.
EDIT:
When it comes to prophets the only special thing to note is that with a priest lv3 and up it adds plus 1 to the level where as everyone else just gets set to lv3. If I don't have a high level priest I just tend to prophetize whatever I can easily get that has the ability to move a lot of troops around at once.
Back in Dom 1, priest caster levels went from 2 to 5, rather than from 1 to 4 now (no idea why)... Prophetizing someone would either set their level to 4 if they weren't priests, or add 1 to their level if they were. ...so if you prophetized a level 2 priest, you'd end up with a level 3 prophet instead of a level 4 one you would've gotten if the dude was just some random mook.
Looooot of stuff in Dom 1 that seems pretty funny looking back on it now... Like how clams were level 2 construction and took 10 water gems. I kinda miss being able to put dowsing rods on non-blood commanders, but I guess I can see that being too easy to bootstrap into blood...
Post by: Shadowlord on January 19, 2015, 08:52:45 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 20, 2015, 02:45:39 am
Post by: Kagus on January 20, 2015, 06:16:24 am
The old H5 spell used to be smite. Fanaticism was just a reg'lar ol' H4, so any lizard king or high inquisitor could pop one off.
The new H5 just seems like a "Banish ALL the things!" button, can't come up with much of a better use for it unless you want to turn a bunch of H2's into smiters for some reason.
Also, this LA R'lyeh LP is... Odd. He's taken what I consider to be some bizarre scales. I should watch it a bit more to find out how he's winning even with what I'd consider to be weirdness, especially since he took a dormant pretender and then didn't use the points as "a handicap".
EDIT: Is there actually ever any reason at all to pick the celestial carp pretender? I'm failing to see any sign of usefulness in the git.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 20, 2015, 10:02:22 am
50 points, basedom 3 W2S1 is fairly reasonable as far as titans go.
I googled up some posts from the desura forums which say that priests with a master matrix boost just fine. Presumably same would be true of S1/B1H1's who cast communion master as well.
Post by: Kagus on January 20, 2015, 10:22:45 am
And if you wanna go diving, T'ien Ch'i gets the Devi of Good Fortunes, which not only provides the same leadership/waterbreathing but also gives a 25% increase in good events... Which, for me, beats out population eater any day... So, basically, it's just there for giving Yomi or Jomon waterbreathing, since Shinuyama can get an underwater foothold with kappas.
He can't fight worth a damn, eats population, and in my opinion really doesn't offer much of anything... W/S doesn't offer a whole lot as far as crosspaths go, and even if it did you could just pay the same to get the jade emperor to plop air in the mix for free plus the 33% bad event reduction. Or nab the celestial general for E/S/A, and all the goodies that brings.
I'unno... I mean, it's a giant fucking carp, the thing should at LEAST have a fear aura.
Post by: E. Albright on January 20, 2015, 10:29:26 am
The new H5 just seems like a "Banish ALL the things!" button, can't come up with much of a better use for it unless you want to turn a bunch of H2's into smiters for some reason.
I've never actually tried it, but IIRC I read it only boosts 1H to 2H. So pretty much supercharging banishers, yeah.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 20, 2015, 10:55:14 am
Only nations that get the carp are T'ien Ch'i and Yomi/Shin/Jomon, and of those only EA and *possibly* LA (if you're insane, like me) T'ien Ch'i. And of THOSE, only EA seems like it could really do much with a water bless. Even then, an immobile pretender would probably be able to get you an overall better bless.
There's no immobile W's, so carp is the cheapest W bless you're going to get if you want one.
It's my opinion that W9 is (if we must make generalizations) the best troop bless in the game. Most of the above nations get high defence sacreds that really benefit from W9 by going from hard to hit to nigh impossible to hit, not to mention the offensive benefit of 1,5 attacks per turn.
Now if you don't want a W bless then I agree there's little reason to take the carp. Most of the nations that get the Carp aren't exactly lacking in W and there's a better pretender selection if you want to pump S instead. The poploss I consider negligible though, it's only one unit after all and won't show up for the first thirty turns (I'm assuming people play Carp as an imprisoned W9). So... I guess we're agreeing then? Carp is good if you want a W bless but for any other purpose there are better pretenders available.
Post by: Kagus on January 20, 2015, 12:17:49 pm
And while they do all get sacreds, that doesn't necessarily mean they're much in the market for a bless. I was under the impression that MA TC and Shin/Jomon benefit the most from just having good scales to leverage their decent national lineup of dudes.
But yeah, if I wanted a straight water bless or W9 with a spot of Astral (less than would make the oracle the more economic choice), then it seems to fill the niche. It's just doesn't seem to be one of those niches I'm particularly concerned with.
Hrmm... Don't suppose anyone's played Yomi as a bless nation, eh? They've got the summonable shikome and various tengus. I just don't really see leveraging those summons as particularly, well... Easy. Then there's the priest problem.
Post by: Rez on January 20, 2015, 12:31:08 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 20, 2015, 12:39:22 pm
Goal seems to be to buff rainbow and monster pretenders so that people will use more than just dragons/titans/immobiles.
Alternatively the latter group will get nerfed to hell. It remains to be seen what exactly happens.
Post by: Kagus on January 20, 2015, 12:43:04 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 20, 2015, 12:49:22 pm
Mmm, yes. I mean, the game is just about taking the role of a god attempting to compete with other gods to gain ultimate control of the universal pantheon. Why should your god actually mean anything or be at all as useful/powerful as generic summons?
If they were gods, they would be gods. As it is, they're just pretenders.
Also, their power is kind of sewn into their pretender stats - the bless bonuses and province benefits. Those are the reasons that they are pretender gods, not any kind of personal power (even if they might actually have that personal power). So I think that ultimately makes sense. The different options must be balanced against each other, so that every one is a viable choice.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 20, 2015, 01:02:19 pm
Because as it stands a significant chunk of the pretenders are simply bad. Why take a dom2 monster pretender when:
A) Dragon expands better at a similar price
B) Titan has equal/more diverse magic at a similar price
C) Titan has better slots at a similar price
D) Immobiles have better scales & dominion at vastly reduced prices
Something like Shedu, Sphinx or Urmalhlullu are simply not played in non-noob games because people who know how to play the game know how bad many of those pretenders are. It would be nice if they weren't so bad.
From what I've gleamed of the official forum, the goal is to make bad pretenders usable, not make good pretenders bad. But I'm not part of the dev process so at best I'm guessing.
Post by: Kagus on January 20, 2015, 02:03:55 pm
Speaking of slots, that's where dragons double-time... By day they're the scaly, flying, fear 10, base-18-protection monsters with the slightly glitchy and incredibly destructive breath weapons... By night, they're a human who has all the slots they need for boosters and/or a hammer to do whatever else might potentially be needed.
Post by: chaoticag on January 20, 2015, 02:22:29 pm
If they were gods, they would be gods. As it is, they're just pretenders.Well, they're pretender gods, not pretending to be gods. There's a difference. There might be many gods, but these gods in specific are pretenders to the position of Pantokrator. In this case, pretender gods are gods with a claim to the throne, in the same way that, say a King's brother might have a claim on that throne as well. Pretend meaning make believe is actually Victorian in terms of how old the use is, so I don't think it makes much sense here.
Also, their power is kind of sewn into their pretender stats - the bless bonuses and province benefits. Those are the reasons that they are pretender gods, not any kind of personal power (even if they might actually have that personal power). So I think that ultimately makes sense. The different options must be balanced against each other, so that every one is a viable choice.
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 20, 2015, 02:33:54 pm
Post by: Kagus on January 20, 2015, 02:43:55 pm
Kinda explains the humies as well, as they're just human mages who feel they've grown powerful enough to make their own stand and compete with the more innately divine entities and vie for the celestial throne.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 20, 2015, 02:53:52 pm
(this is coming from someone who really doesn't understand the game, mind you)
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 20, 2015, 02:59:52 pm
Re: Pretender balance, am I the only one who thinks that non-awake pretenders shouldn't give bless bonuses until they become active? Seems like the main trade off of non-awake is early weakness, and if the primary point of your pretender is its bless bonus... you aren't going to be that much weaker early on for not having them.The problem with your suggestion is that what you describe being a problem (from my understanding) is the trade off for getting a good bless. An awake pretender can do anything from getting more provinces to boost your research before others so you can do stuff like hurry towards artifacts and such. So yes making them not give bonus would "balance" stuff but you wouldn't be able to have a good bless and actually use it when it is most important.
(this is coming from someone who really doesn't understand the game, mind you)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 20, 2015, 03:10:28 pm
I'm not sure if you're actually for or against the suggestion, because I can't seem to correlate his suggestion and your description. :PRe: Pretender balance, am I the only one who thinks that non-awake pretenders shouldn't give bless bonuses until they become active? Seems like the main trade off of non-awake is early weakness, and if the primary point of your pretender is its bless bonus... you aren't going to be that much weaker early on for not having them.The problem with your suggestion is that what you describe being a problem (from my understanding) is the trade off for getting a good bless. An awake pretender can do anything from getting more provinces to boost your research before others so you can do stuff like hurry towards artifacts and such. So yes making them not give bonus would "balance" stuff but you wouldn't be able to have a good bless and actually use it when it is most important.
(this is coming from someone who really doesn't understand the game, mind you)
He's saying that pretenders that aren't awake (as in, still Dormant or Imprisoned), shouldn't have a bless bonus until they become awake. The ability of awake pretenders to act out sooner is mitigated by the relatively smaller point pool they get, which means a lesser bonus.
You're saying that... awake pretenders can act out sooner, and... something. Do you mean that having a good bless and not being able to use it until your pretender is active is a bad thing in this case? Because that's kind of the point of the suggestion.
Awake pretenders get to act out early but are limited in strength, dormant and imprisoned ones have to rely on their followers alone at the beginning but bring much more power to bear when they awake. Seems reasonable.
Post by: Kagus on January 20, 2015, 03:18:29 pm
Anybody else remember when there were no special bless effects? Everybody got a morale and I think attack bonus. That was it. There really wasn't much of any reason to take high paths in any magic school, unless you really wanted to have a LOT of claymen or something.
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 20, 2015, 03:23:56 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 20, 2015, 04:27:51 pm
--
I can kinda see the point of limiting or eliminating bless effects when the pretender is dormant or imprisoned (a lot of the talk when Dom4 came out was how much more it was pushing bless strategies, and while there's less noise of that now, you still hear it), but for consistency, you'd almost have to take it away again if the pretender dies. Which would discourage actually using the things outside the lab.
Post by: Frumple on January 20, 2015, 04:47:09 pm
Actually, bless-no-work/work-less-when-inactive + mobile-lab-now could make for some bloody interesting choices. Something both to incentivize caution and reward activity.
Post by: PrimusRibbus on January 20, 2015, 04:57:15 pm
Re: Pretender balance, am I the only one who thinks that non-awake pretenders shouldn't give bless bonuses until they become active? Seems like the main trade off of non-awake is early weakness, and if the primary point of your pretender is its bless bonus... you aren't going to be that much weaker early on for not having them.
(this is coming from someone who really doesn't understand the game, mind you)
Major bless tends to be a fairly risky strategy for many nations. You're often limited to one or two viable pretenders, sacrificing early expansion potential, throwing your ideal scales out the window, and have more points of failure than other nation models (squishy initial priests, relying on specific mid-high research summonables, etc). For some nations their major blessed prophet and handful of blessable capitol recruits are basically their only option to take out indies in the first year or two.
Now granted, that's not a big deal with the slower pace of a single player game. However awake SC pretenders in multiplayer are already nightmarish when used correctly, and bad early expansion has decided many a Dom4 game within 10 turns.
Post by: chaoticag on January 20, 2015, 05:05:52 pm
Post by: Kagus on January 20, 2015, 05:59:10 pm
I know about hedging the bets by not attacking farmlands/forests/swamps first turn, but there are still occasional dick indies that I'd much rather not risk throwing away my pretender on. I don't know if 1 turn's difference is worth that, especially since you could generally also use it for a little jump-start in research.
As for bless strategies, it was my understanding that bless strategies were a kind of tradeoff in that you can start the game with a comparitively really powerful troop buff, but one that's kinda overshadowed by regular researchable buffs later in the game. So you're basically trading in having an active pretender to help out in the early days, to just have an early "spell" that lets you help yourself.
Post by: ArKFallen on January 20, 2015, 10:52:11 pm
As for bless strategies, it was my understanding that bless strategies were a kind of tradeoff in that you can start the game with a comparitively really powerful troop buff, but one that's kinda overshadowed by regular researchable buffs later in the game. So you're basically trading in having an active pretender to help out in the early days, to just have an early "spell" that lets you help yourself.Emphasis added. Even with the research many buffs will simply be out of reach because of national pathing. Those researchable buffs also require a mage to be present to lay them down whereas you can simply use the cheap indie priests(or your own better ones).
Spoiler: Things you probably already know (click to show/hide)
I'm actually currently in an EA noob game as Hinnom with an incidental B9F4 bless. Couldn't figure out a good bless combo for Se'ir and my mages so I settled on going for Soul Contracts very early. My first war was with W9 Dragon Vanheim so the Se'ir haven't got much use but the devils were pretty sweet at clipping Van mages. The attrition was horrible but it's Turn59(first contract devil turn17) and I've only lost 1 contractor to horror attacks.
Economically Se'ir are like 1 per 41/6 (.125)slaves while that first contract is at 1 devil per 1.31 slaves. Devils are also better patrollers and siegers +MM3 flyers. Yum.
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2015, 05:44:44 am
I'd probably just as soon go for a minor earth buff for the reinvigoration, since the most likely sacreds you're gonna be using are your big beefy national thug-mages.
Don't know if it still holds true, but the old Baalz guide that I'm sure we've all heard about talked about how Hinnom's nationals can actually do a non-shit job of defending against horrors. Assign some dawn guards as bodyguards to contractors and they might be able to fight off the odd lunch ticket.
Regarding blesses, I'm aware that some blesses nowadays actually overshadow the late-game equivalents, or provide something that otherwise can't be replicated (the new B9 shenanigans, for example). At that point, it's really more just a matter of your access to H3 priests to minimize attrition and maximize effectiveness of your armies, because even with a lot of H1s, sometimes they can be pretty bad at covering some of the gaps...
...oh hell, I remember Agartha from the Dom 3 demo. Pale ones had such utter shit precision that they would sometimes miss when trying to bless themselves.
As an aside, I'm pretty sure that Quickness: The Spell also provides either +3 or +5 defense, so the difference is more in favor of the spell buff since it provides 2x attacks rather than 1.5x... But coverage is still deffo in favor of the bless, even if you do somehow manage to get down to Alt 8 for the enhanced version
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 21, 2015, 06:09:14 am
Is there some kind of mass-Aim spell somewhere? These longbowmen are great en masse, but they still miss a lot.
Post by: tompliss on January 21, 2015, 06:23:22 am
And about spells, and Flaming Arrows : you don't need a mage with F4 to cast it. Mages can cast spells a level higher than they actually are, by spending an extra gem. So a F3 mage can cast Flaming Arrows by spending 2 gems.
And if you think you will cast it more than 5 times, I recommend forging a Fire in a Jar, the F1 constr1 misc item that gives 1 temporary gem per combat to its wielder ;)
Post by: E. Albright on January 21, 2015, 07:15:28 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 21, 2015, 07:27:17 am
I think I forgot that particular feature of using magic gems. I do recall reading something about that in the manual. And yes, I was already planning on giving him a fire jar. :P
And thanks for pointing me at the Wind Guide spell. Seriously, how do they (the game's creators) expect someone to keep track of all this stuff? There's like three hundred spells in there! :\
Post by: ArKFallen on January 21, 2015, 07:42:53 am
Seriously, how do they (the game's creators) expect someone to keep track of all this stuff? There's like three hundred spells in there! :\Fanworks I expect. People tout the inspector (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/) which has most everything and I love to examine the slightly outdated spell breakdown (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80573254/Dominions%204/4.04/spells.txt).
I'd really rather have it go off on the opening volley, since that's usually when it really counts, before any counterattacks and potential deadly magics.Defenders act first in battle. I think spells are also the first part of the turn. So you are going to need to boost a mage to F3 out-of-combat to get that first strike capability. The end of the manual has a list of magic boosters by Const level that shows what is boosted. The inspector allows item sorting based on boosted paths and also shows all the requirements to forge.
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2015, 08:03:26 am
Also, there's a new conjuration spell (I think it's Conj. 6?) that lets you summon a commander that has innate 3F, which then goes up to 4F with any kind of booster, or potentially empowerment.
There are a couple other booster items, but they're both demanding pathwise and exorbitantly expensive.
On a completely different note, I've just been doing some dicking around with a test game... Turns out stacking two eyes of aiming doesn't give you anything good even on a blind unit, as the +8 bonus only applies from the first eye. The second one just eats a misc slot and does nothing.
However, one eye of aiming will give an olm sage (EA Agartha cap-only commander) 20 precision before any other modifiers... Which is nothing to sneeze at, considering Agartha can also get the forge lord pretender and potentially make eyes of aiming for 1 gem each.
Another thing I found out is perhaps even more interesting... You know how the spell description for flaming arrows mentions how it doesn't affect magic weapons? That generally means that any bows o' botulf or whatnot you've got your commanders toting around won't get the bonus.
However, a fire bless DOES affect magic weapons. If you've got a sacred commander and a fire bless, you can give them a bow of war and turn it into a bow of FLAMING war; which is pretty nifty, all things considered.
And thanks for pointing me at the Wind Guide spell. Seriously, how do they (the game's creators) expect someone to keep track of all this stuff? There's like three hundred spells in there! :\
I think a lot of people tend to think of it as "okay, there are some 300+ spells, of which 20 are worth remembering". It's more just a matter of figuring out which ones are noteworthy (wind guide, flaming arrows), and which ones aren't (bog beasts, ghost ship armada).
Post by: E. Albright on January 21, 2015, 08:26:42 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 21, 2015, 08:54:22 am
Another thing I found out is perhaps even more interesting... You know how the spell description for flaming arrows mentions how it doesn't affect magic weapons? That generally means that any bows o' botulf or whatnot you've got your commanders toting around won't get the bonus.Hm. Middle Age Man has dirt cheap sacred commanders. Horrible logistics issues of moving around hordes of monks aside, would a fire-blessed Bow of War be an in any way decent enough weapon to even consider using that combination? I.e. a platoon of monks wielding bows of war with fire blessings (that they can themselves apply)? Obviously with some kind of other support for tougher opponents, but would it be viable in principle?
However, a fire bless DOES affect magic weapons. If you've got a sacred commander and a fire bless, you can give them a bow of war and turn it into a bow of FLAMING war; which is pretty nifty, all things considered.
You can even stockpile Eyes of Aiming while you wait for the Construction research to hit level 6. One-man MLRS batteries. :P
Maybe even toss in Handfuls of Acorns to give them some melee support.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 21, 2015, 09:07:42 am
Also I can't remember, does the extra fire damage from Flaming Arrows trigger on a hit or on damage? Because if it's only on damage than massed arrows aren't going to be all that effective, especially against anyone with a good shield and some armour. Though with massed crossbows...
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 21, 2015, 09:34:29 am
Also I can't remember, does the extra fire damage from Flaming Arrows trigger on a hit or on damage? Because if it's only on damage than massed arrows aren't going to be all that effective, especially against anyone with a good shield and some armour. Though with massed crossbows...The description for fire arrows explicitly states that the fire damage will go through even if the arrow itself is stopped by armor.
edit: correction, it says it will affect ethereal and invulnerable creatures even if the arrow itself doesn't, so whether armor counts is not so certain.
Also, all monks are sneaky and priests, so that's another potential upside to that strategy. :P
Ten commando monks with bows of war, aiming eyes, and handfuls of acorns (beside any other potential gear) would be like a miniature sneaky army of 130 flaming archers and 30 vinemen that you could conceivably have pop up anywhere you need it to (where the enemy isn't looking very hard, because their sneak is what, 40?). Give them a few Mothers of Avalon as magic backup (also sneaky), and they could wreck quite a lot of havoc.
edit3: edit2 moved to separate post.
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2015, 09:37:08 am
Yeah, in the case of Man it'd almost certainly be better to just use those great longbowmen you get anyways. Monks have plenty of uses (more so than ever now) anyways, but nothing to consider taking a big bless for. The main thing a monk patrol would have over a bunch of bowmen is the fact that they'd be stealthy, but it would still be a gigantic drain on gems and a logistics nightmare getting everyone equipped/ready.
Reason I mentioned the bow of war is that it has by far the most spectacular visuals associated with a fire bless, hehehehehe. For monks, a perfectly decent alternative would be to just give them longbows of accuracy. It does okay damage on its own, and as the name suggests is really accurate. Helps out a lot since monks aren't exactly the best marksmen around, and it lets them assist proper armies by plinking out long-range sniper fire against whatever happens to be in the targeting bracket of "rearmost enemies" (man, I remember when you could script to "fire magic users"... Fucking hell).
Anyways, the example with the olm seer is probably the more interesting one, since getting 20 base precision on a commander who is unaffected by the biggest accuracy reductions (darkness, blindness, haven't tested with mists or storms yet) is pretty sweet, especially when you can hand him oh, say, a banefire crossbow? He'll even spew out a mind blast simultaneously. With a bunch of Alteration research he can also be super-accurate with frozen heart spam if he doesn't have a weapon.
Post by: tompliss on January 21, 2015, 09:39:47 am
Oh, and heroes with heroic high precision :D
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 21, 2015, 09:44:53 am
Magic: The Gathering. :D
Forests, swamps, mountains, plains... Oceans instead of islands. Instead of randomly drawing, putting down, and tapping lands, you have to control those lands and find randomly occurring magic sites within them. You have creatures that can be summoned and spells that can be cast, each costing a certain amount of the resource that comes from those magic lands, each with its own color. You have hero units and
The only difference is that it doesn't cost you quite as much money. :P
Post by: Frumple on January 21, 2015, 11:52:38 am
FWIW, Ghost Ship Armada got buffed in Dom4. It'll still fall to serious resistance, but Torgrin and his officers have better gear and paths, his crew is tougher, and there's more of them. You also get a moderate pile of of gold every month if they succeeded in pillaging their target.It's not a guaranteed thing, but I've actually seen Torgrin drop a 100 PD province before :-\
The global auto-attack/assassination stuff in general really seems to be pretty ballin' in D4, honestly. Like, D3 I'd only consider casting them on a lark, but D4 they're... well, not something I'd specifically aim for, but definitely cast if I got the access and the gems for it while aiming for something else. They're... really nice these days.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 21, 2015, 12:10:53 pm
Note: This is assuming a situation when you're sitting on gems and need a large force to counter another large force, i.e. you can't just spam something like Contact Lamias because even if the lamias are far better as fighters, 25 gems will get you at most 55 of them, and that's if you have a Nature 9 mage and 5 turns to keep casting.
I'm also not concerning myself with "practical" or "plausible" - I'm assuming a situation might come up when it might become useful. What's the most efficient way to power up a horde of a hundred/hundreds of undisciplined animals into a reasonably formidable force?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 21, 2015, 12:52:21 pm
Specific spells of course depend on what you can cast. Alteration has Battle Fortune, Fog Warriors, Army of Foo, Foo Warriors and a few debuffs you might throw at the enemy (low prot animals fare a lot better if you fight no prot enemies). On the enchantment side you'd use Strength of Giants, Mass Flight, Mass Regen etc.. You'll note that most of those spells are fairly high level, large scale buffing isn't something that happens early in the game.
Of course another way to use those animals would be to not care too much about buffing them. They're there to soak up damage while your mages/elites do the actual damage. Still, buff or two wouldn't hurt if they survive an extra combat round or three thanks to them.
And thanks for pointing me at the Wind Guide spell. Seriously, how do they (the game's creators) expect someone to keep track of all this stuff? There's like three hundred spells in there! :\
Magic seems daunting at first, but there are certain staple spells that come up time and time again that you learn to be aware of fairly soon. Just as an example, there's a ton of fire evocations in the game, but due to utility and accessibility you will be casting fireballs and falling fires 80% of the time.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 21, 2015, 01:55:18 pm
Actually, either fire arrows don't get through armor, or that one unit I was watching was immune to fire, or it was changed in 4.14 (I still have 4.10 because... "evaluation version" >_>)
The test was rather... large-scale.
With the last enemy castle on the map, I decided to go all-in and pulled all troops from the entire continent to assault this one.
In the end, to get a Fire 4 mage I decided to just take a Jade Sorceress with a level in Death magic, and empower her. After I got her up to Fire 1 I had her make a fire skull to get her to Fire 2, and then another two empowers with the remaining gems alchemized in. Could probably just triple-empower a wizard, but eh. :P
Matchup was rather imbalanced, but the enemy had pretty good offensive magic.
(http://i.imgur.com/lsv317K.jpg)
Thankfully, with Wind Guide and Fire Arrows, so did we.
(http://i.imgur.com/Wr0ifmW.jpg)
In the end the battle was won, but a lot of our forces fell to enemy fire, Blade Wind, Nether Darts, and... fire arrows. :P
(http://i.imgur.com/cK65bqc.jpg)
Most of the non-longbowman casualties were caused by longbowmen. :P
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 21, 2015, 02:08:47 pm
Also I've been fooling around with a bit of modding, and after an hour or so of jiggling values around I've decided that I have no clue how to balance things. So would you guys mind taking a look at it after I polish my mod up a bit? Some stuff seems to be working weirdly, and I think that it's because of how the tags are ordered.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 21, 2015, 02:11:47 pm
...there. Put them up on Imgur while Dropbox is having seizures.
Post by: Frumple on January 21, 2015, 02:24:01 pm
Iirc, the biggest issues with animals in general are the morale, the attack score, and the general lack of defensive measures (outside HP). If you're going to use them as something besides a damage sponge, you're going to want to use them against low defense enemies (this is the probably the biggest concern, imo), berserk as many as possible (dealing with morale and a bit of the attack issue, iirc), and throw up something that helps with defense -- fog warriors or somethin' like that is probably ideal, since the bulk of 'em are going to actually be fairly flimsy HP wise, so getting hit is... suboptimal.
If you're up against enemies with decent defense, though, I'd probably suggest some other measure. High prot and/or HP is probably fine to send 'em against -- animals tend to hit decently hard, when they hit -- but the critters lean toward the inaccurate, so... yeah.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 21, 2015, 02:29:10 pm
I've never cast "Animal Horde," though, only specific animal-type summoning spells (Pride of Lions while playing EA Machaka, for example).
Post by: Rez on January 21, 2015, 02:52:22 pm
I think I like the colossal fetish pretender the most, because of the "mostly does what its worshippers believe it would do" flavor. The Colossal Fetish is the will of it's nation, manifested as a god.
Post by: ArKFallen on January 21, 2015, 03:22:41 pm
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2015, 03:37:12 pm
And yeah, if I'm not mistaken it will hit anybody who kills the unit with anything. Even in the case of, for example, seeking arrow nuking a random commander.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 21, 2015, 05:54:35 pm
So unless your guy is thug/SC guy who switches between battle casting and punching, I wouldn't worry too much about death curses.
Post by: ArKFallen on January 21, 2015, 05:59:02 pm
Good to know that one death curse is the same as 100. This particular Ba'al will just have to be my designated witch hunter.
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2015, 06:27:43 pm
...or, hell, get a couple acha to sneak alongside them and automatically heal all their afflictions for free, including the stuff like dementia or feebleminding which can make blood feasting difficult. You have precisely zero worries.
Post by: ArKFallen on January 21, 2015, 06:34:27 pm
Oh, you're using Ba'als? Pffft, no worries then. Just send them off on a blood feast if they get some injuries that actually mean anything.This is a good point that I hadn't considered. Thank you.
...or, hell, get a couple acha to sneak alongside them and automatically heal all their afflictions for free, including the stuff like dementia or feebleminding which can make blood feasting difficult. You have precisely zero worries.
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2015, 06:41:17 pm
Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, healers can heal their own afflictions.
Post by: ArKFallen on January 21, 2015, 07:00:06 pm
Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, healers can heal their own afflictions.Nifty.
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2015, 07:10:55 pm
And yeah, I noticed the healer thing when trying to make an SC out of the Bodhisattva (got a hell of a lot going for her, but no fear and terrible protection/health bring her back down. Also expensive as hell)... Was trying to use her for expansion actually, where she'd cast air shield and then just sit in front and tank while the humies did the actual killing. Wasn't half bad at it, despite the fact that she can't kill a damn thing on her own without gear. She wound up getting a couple booboos, and then suddenly no longer had them since she'd healed herself.
I guess performing open heart surgery on yourself isn't completely ridiculous if you're an enlightened demigod, but still...
Post by: E. Albright on January 21, 2015, 08:49:35 pm
...or, hell, get a couple acha to sneak alongside them and automatically heal all their afflictions for free, including the stuff like dementia or feebleminding which can make blood feasting difficult. You have precisely zero worries.
FYI, Dementia is for keepsies ATM. It's bugged, such that neither healers, nor Blood Feasts, nor Gifts of Health, nor even the Chalice can cure it...
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2015, 05:11:20 am
Just reading up a bit on blood magic. I'd still really really like to put Yomi in on that action, but bootstrapping into blood seems more than just slightly painful... If only blood had some kinda B1 summonable early commander like the revenant for death, then... Well, then everybody would use blood, probably.
Post by: ArKFallen on January 22, 2015, 07:14:38 am
Oh glory, more buggy features... Y'know, sometimes it feels like I wound up getting the game with some pre-installed community modpack, with all the unprofessionality that entails.Probably because (IIRC) 1 programmer (screen name jk.illwinter) and 1 assembler (Kristoffer puts the nations together and tweaks). Also a ton of mechanics built on an old engine and the whole thing isn't their only job.
Personally I probably wouldn't even be willing to play test the dev versions because of how opaque bug-spotting is.
Just reading up a bit on blood magic. I'd still really really like to put Yomi in on that action, but bootstrapping into blood seems more than just slightly painful... If only blood had some kinda B1 summonable early commander like the revenant for death, then... Well, then everybody would use blood, probably.Maybe. I have my doubts though.
It'd be a whole new tree of research and getting in to it would be expensive income and slave wise. You'd have no native blood crosspaths to access important features. A lot of those crosspaths take B2?1 or B2?2 so that is either go regular blood or double empower a national (60 slaves? 50 for B1, 10/20 B2).
There would be a lot of folks taking blood pretenders and strapping themselves into it I agree. The majority of them will probably get stomped early game though.
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2015, 07:40:10 am
And you can get a lot of usage out of blood even without researching anything in the school. Construction 2 lets you suit up some soul contracts, which while a bit expensive can be quite handy in some situations, particularly considering the fact that you're gonna hit Cons. 2 anyways for your own reasons.
Oh glory, more buggy features... Y'know, sometimes it feels like I wound up getting the game with some pre-installed community modpack, with all the unprofessionality that entails.Probably because (IIRC) 1 programmer (screen name jk.illwinter) and 1 assembler (Kristoffer puts the nations together and tweaks). Also a ton of mechanics built on an old engine and the whole thing isn't their only job.
Personally I probably wouldn't even be willing to play test the dev versions because of how opaque bug-spotting is.
Used to be one guy doing graphics, and one guy doing everything that wasn't graphics. Is it even the same duo? I thought I remembered seeing some different names mentioned aside from Kristoffer. It just seems like the design direction has taken some different curves, stuff like Xibalba and Berytos still really just look like mod nations that some fan put in. Then again, I thought Agartha was an oddball when they put them in...
Post by: tompliss on January 22, 2015, 08:05:24 am
In my recollection it's 50 to empower from 0-1, then 30 to go from 1-2.Yeap, it's *[new level], except for the first :)
Post by: E. Albright on January 22, 2015, 08:28:13 am
Used to be one guy doing graphics, and one guy doing everything that wasn't graphics. Is it even the same duo? I thought I remembered seeing some different names mentioned aside from Kristoffer. It just seems like the design direction has taken some different curves, stuff like Xibalba and Berytos still really just look like mod nations that some fan put in. Then again, I thought Agartha was an oddball when they put them in...
That would be the aforementioned JK/KO duo, though they did get someone to write the manual (Eddir) and events (RandomEvents/Erik something). I find the newer nations entirely unsurprising when you consider that the graphics/content half of the team (KO) teaches world religions for a living - Xibalba is firmly rooted in Mesoamerican myth and no more odd than Bandar Log, really - just more exotic to a western audience.
Agartha is totally artificial, though. At this point, they're the only one since Abysia has absorbed trace Zorasterian influences.
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2015, 09:21:48 am
I mean... Of course I see how Vanheim and Jotunheim are both centered in Norse myth, but they represent two distinct sides in Norse myth, namely the Æsir/Vanir vs. the giants. The details are of course quite a bit more complex, but those two sides are specifically and distinctly represented in the original myths.
Xibalba, meanwhile, is... Mictlan. It's the mesoamerican underworld, which Mictlan: The Nation already represents with its demonic influences/summons.
I'm less up-to-date on celtic myth, but I believe Fomoria/TNN are another perfectly reasonable pair founded in the same root myth, as they both represent different "sides" and thus embody different aspects of the whole.
It's more the pairs like Vanheim/Helheim that I don't understand, because I don't see how the end nation is really distinct enough from the other to be interesting and I at least can't recall any particularly distinct factions or powers in nordic mythology that Helheim would serve to represent... Hel was a half-giant daughter of Loki and she pretty much had full say over whatever went on in her domain, so reasonably she'd be associated with Jotunheim (as newly represented by the Draugar summoning spell available to them).
Pangaea/Arcoscephale is another pair I can "get", seeing as they're representing the civilized versus the uncivilized aspects of Greek mythology. Actually, it's more of a kind of split between Greek myth and Greek history, but still...
Berytos are pretty clearly Phoenecians, and while they're the only ones specifically based on that, there are a lot of overlaps between (what we know of) those beliefs and the other mediterranean legends, and as an in-game nation I really just don't see how they're supposed to stand out. They're really just Gath with some palette swaps.
Post by: ArKFallen on January 22, 2015, 09:31:53 am
EA Xibalba is pretty much Mictlan+Caelum, MA is completely different, and I don't even know with LA. To me Xibalba getting Onaquis (+jaguar unit line) is kind of weird as I think they are jungle-jaguar demons. It is supposed to be a subterranean jungle but I figured a subterranean jungle would be completely different wild life wise.
Berytos are pretty clearly Phoenecians, and while they're the only ones specifically based on that, there are a lot of overlaps between (what we know of) those beliefs and the other mediterranean legends, and as an in-game nation I really just don't see how they're supposed to stand out. They're really just Gath with some palette swaps.Gath in the EA. They might play the same (haven't got to them either) but the EA is a whole different ball game compared to LA.
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 22, 2015, 09:59:45 am
Agartha is totally artificial, though.I don't think so. Significant liberties have been taken with the concept, but a world of underground cities and tunnels inhabited by spiritually, technologically and magically advanced beings guarding ancient sleeping entities/ancestors, is something that has been played with in the occult writings of the past century.
There hasn't ever been an established religion related to Agartha, so it fits more into the group of occult/fantasy-based nations similar to the Lovercraftian ones. Still, that's not a thing entirely made up from scratch by the Illwinter guys.
Post by: E. Albright on January 22, 2015, 10:04:33 am
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2015, 10:55:12 am
Post by: E. Albright on January 22, 2015, 11:30:23 am
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2015, 11:44:07 am
Pelagia has some pretty decent aquatic troops, plus general mermen for hitting the shores. Plus they've got that 1-1 water gem-pearl conversion, which seems like it could be put to good use... Hell, they've even got freespawn hippocampoi. With the separation of Oceania/Pelagia it seems like Oceania should've gotten the animal freespawns instead.
Post by: Culise on January 22, 2015, 11:49:02 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 23, 2015, 12:15:03 am
And you don't need much blood income to use Reinvigoration (only 50RP to get!) if you happen to sport communions.
Post by: Kagus on January 23, 2015, 08:16:38 pm
Gah... You'd think that celestial masters would be slightly smarter to have managed to live that long, but apparently not! Was doing some testing, had a little flying party with a celestial master and some demons of heavenly fires... And then that irritating old man would insist on making some of them go berserk and fly over to the enemy forces they were dealing with JUST FINE, in order to get slaughtered in melee.
Trying to decide on a decent bless for EA T'ien Ch'i... Blood is actually quite helpful all round, as it even increases the damage of the fire wheels the heavenly demons throw. Also means that damage done to ancestor spirits (generally quite a bit more than their 1 HP max health) has a chance to be reflected, which gives them some extra use.
Fire is awesome for WotFE's, hounds and spirits (no idea if flaming weapons also applies to the flaming wheels), water is even awesomer for WotFE's, death is nice for most everyone, most notably the spirits... I'm thinking air is worth looking at. None of the sacreds have shields, and most don't have much in the way of armor. Arrows hurt. It also assists in both protecting your little old man-mages and making them all the more accurate with spells or stuff. Most importantly, it really buffs the heavenly fire demons. They'll get cross-battlefield range and sniper accuracy with those wheels.
However, trying to balance any of this stuff with nice scales is, naturally... Tricky.
EDIT: On another nation entirely, I've been wondering a bit about LA Gath. Seen a couple discussions talking about trashing the Iassacharite sages entirely in favor of sibyls, since they provide slightly more RP, have 1S1N so can be communion slaves, and require a 500g lab to be made instead of an 800g temple, since they're not sacred.
They also have 5% fortune teller, which is pretty nice. However, I've found that the sages are entirely unaffected by magic scales, either positive or negative. So with Drain 3, sages and sibyls both provide only 6 rp. Also, sages are still just as affected by research boosters, so you can beef up their research by slapping some items on them. Only one that Gath has early access to is the imp familiar, but they do get the goodies like skulls and lightless lanterns later on.
Post by: Vrky on January 28, 2015, 03:47:29 pm
I have a question. Is there any good AAR you people can recommend me? I'm looking for something that explains some basic or advanced strategies, site searching strategies, combat orders etc., so that I learn by reading. Thanks :)
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 28, 2015, 04:46:36 pm
Off the top of my head I don't have anything readable though. There's a set of videos by one of the MP vets which he's uploaded and voice over'd after the fact explaining how and why he played. Pretty good stuff if you don't mind the video format. Faction played is EA Mictlan but there's plenty of stuff that's just good play that you can use regardless of the nation. Link below:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXa4InahZRZkqRrmqug0C4t1Zvgzo0vRm
Not AAR's, but there's guides on the official forum (check the non-nation specific ones at least):
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/board/the-council-of-sages-strategy-guides
This bit (for Dom3 but I think it's mostly applicable) gives some non-specific expansion help. Most useful in that it lists the various indie types and their usual counters:
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-3-the-awakening/forum/thread/expansion-101
There's also this Dom3 era expansion guide that goes a bit more into specific scripting:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42211
Regarding the last two expansion guides, the biggest relevant difference between Dom3 and 4 (in this area) is that Dom4 introduced soft squad limits. If you divide troops into more squads than the commander can handle, you get serious morale penalties. So the bits where they talk about using multiple (+3) squads, you might want to try and make things work with just two or three squads (as that's what most commanders let you play around with).
Also feel free to ask any questions that may crop up, there's usually enough folks here to write a page or two's worth of answers :P
Post by: Kagus on January 29, 2015, 05:27:55 am
The limiting your expansion thing was new to me, last guide I'd read said that from turn 2 on you should be taking at least one province per turn for the rest of the year+. And one province was bare minimum. Must've just been a SP guide or something.
I always find fort construction to be a tricky prospect, especially with stuff like Ur or in LA when forts take so much gold and so much time to build... Getting 1 finished before year 2 and 2-3 going, preferably all in locations that are actually nice to have forts in, is a bit hard for me to work around sometimes...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 12, 2015, 03:15:48 am
I don't want to abandon my games, and I suspect that the lategame could be really fun once I get a grip on how to play. But PBEM is a massive pain in the ass. I've played asynchronous TBS games before, but most of them have this understanding that you start several games at once and then quickly play them as they come in. As a result you generally have at least 5 days to submit turns. Also I didn't realize how much the minute or so of fiddling with email would make each turn feel like a chore, but it does.
I dunno. I'll keep playing to see if it clicks, but I'm not too impressed so far. Also, SO MUCH useless variety for the sake of variety. Niefelhiem's unit list could probably be simplified to 9 units with *zero* loss in meaningful decisions. Scout, warrior hero, priest, mage, priest-mage, militia, javelineer, elite melee, sacred giant. To say nothing of the endless variants of "x level summon", "x level magic attack" that are all basically interchangeable as far as I can tell. Its like the game designers haven't realized yet that when you do this in a multiplayer game, experienced players will pick 10% of the content as worth using and ignore everything else.
Post by: bluth on February 12, 2015, 04:30:38 am
To say nothing of the endless variants of "x level summon", "x level magic attack" that are all basically interchangeable as far as I can tell.
"as far as you can tell" indeed. I'm sure experienced player will find use in units you found useless.
Personally i'm not that good but so far in MP games i've used every unit that my nation had to offer and I played 4 differents nations.
And even if it is not useful it is in no way a problem, just don't use them.
I understand what you mean with the email, my gaming group have a dedicated server so no need for email and everything can be done ingame, that make the game extra enjoyable.
That game hooked me harder than any other game but you have to multi, there is basically no solo.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 12, 2015, 04:41:49 am
I for once welcome a game not geared towards "experienced multiplayers", choosing flavor and storytelling capacity over hard-cut mechanical differences. Cybersports are a bane of the strategy game genres, RTS specifically but other types are affected as well.
Post by: E. Albright on February 12, 2015, 05:01:04 am
To say nothing of the endless variants of "x level summon", "x level magic attack" that are all basically interchangeable as far as I can tell. Its like the game designers haven't realized yet that when you do this in a multiplayer game, experienced players will pick 10% of the content as worth using and ignore everything else.
Actually, a lot of the tuning between Dom3 and Dom4 was to avoid that last bit, which was kinda happening in Dom3.
There are spells (and summons) that are better than others. However, not every nation has the paths to use every spell. And some spells are better than others but deeper into the research tree. And some spells are better than others in circumstances A, B, and C, but worse in X, Y, or Y. There's a lot of variables in play, so most things have some use sometimes. Not everything, and never always. But most, in the right circumstances, will be useful. And the right circumstances may well be "I can't afford/haven't researched optimal spell Q but I need to cast/summon something RIGHT NOW", or "my opponent just completely countered optimal unit P, so I need an unexpected curveball RIGHT NOW".
A lot of the value in some of the less obviously powerful stuff is just about trying to adapt what you have to what you can do with it. And since what you can do varies by nation, and two people can't play the same nation, it's really hard to find one optimal "10%" strategy.
Also, like Sean said, the devs have no compunctions whatsoever to have flavorful but low-value units. You might only ever use some of them after an event gives you a pile and you have nothing else to do with them, but given how much complexity the game has even barring "redundant" units, there's not really much of a downside to them being there.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 12, 2015, 05:20:44 am
I don't want to abandon my games, and I suspect that the lategame could be really fun once I get a grip on how to play. But PBEM is a massive pain in the ass. I've played asynchronous TBS games before, but most of them have this understanding that you start several games at once and then quickly play them as they come in. As a result you generally have at least 5 days to submit turns. Also I didn't realize how much the minute or so of fiddling with email would make each turn feel like a chore, but it does.
Turns do come in quicker than with games that have the file pass on from player to player. As a result I limit myself to at most two games at once, helps maintain my sanity if both hit lategame phase.
And there is a direct connect option if email bothers you, though Bay12 doesn't use a server (nor do most folks at desura/official forum). I know Something Awful forum has one, but they're behind a paywall. Steam has at least one group, their FAQ here:
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/clockworkforest/discussions/5/617321352366980945/
It's an invite only group but all you need to do is post here:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/259060/discussions/1/558751812782623916/
I don't play there myself but they seem to be a good bunch. Presumably there are others with a server too if you dig around.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 24, 2015, 02:04:43 pm
Also some minor things were changed too. Shapechanging units can be killed if hit with enough damage, instead of surviving in their other form with 1 HP. So Nahuallis are no longer capable of spamming a Mind Duel so easily. A Death Bless now properly affects arrows and something about Demonic Locusts were added. Supaya spam is now much harder to do since they only arrive one at a time now, but Nazca also gets a new 10-gem item that lets you summon 3 per turn instead.
In other words, there's nothing groundbreaking in this patch but it still adds a few new stuff and makes the game slightly better overall. So I guess we'll have to set up a few more games to celebrate? Or at least wait for the inevitable minor patches to be rolled out?
Post by: Kagus on February 24, 2015, 02:17:42 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 24, 2015, 03:57:42 pm
Post by: E. Albright on February 24, 2015, 04:51:12 pm
Spoiler: Patch notes (click to show/hide)
Post by: Boksi on February 24, 2015, 06:05:28 pm
Shape changing units can die in one strike if it's powerful enough to kill the next shape too.Oi, that's huge and I didn't know about it.
I mean, there's other huge changes in there, but I hadn't heard about that one before.
Post by: Frumple on February 24, 2015, 06:11:20 pm
Also poor skinshifters ;_;
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 24, 2015, 06:19:38 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 24, 2015, 06:44:48 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 24, 2015, 07:21:35 pm
I thought N9 jaguars were already a thing to some extent.
I thought so too. And I honestly I don't see this change having much of an effect on shapechangers in general. It's only a problem if they take 20~30 damage in a single strike, which is something that only happens if they're getting ganked by Pillar of Fine, Soul Slay, or something similar. So I wouldn't worry about them. It's more of a nerf to the Nahualli than anything else.
Does anyone know how the Raven of Underworld's 'eater of the dead' works? Surely, it doesn't mean endless hitpoints?
I believe that it's the same ability that the "Eater of the Dead" has, so... I want to say that it does provide endless hitpoints. Until they're chopped off. But I might be wrong, especially since the Raven also gets temporary hitpoints from its dominion and the two might cancel each other out somehow.
Post by: Frumple on February 24, 2015, 07:34:11 pm
Post by: tompliss on February 25, 2015, 04:48:42 am
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/the-new-path-released/page/6#1028405
A little hotfix is apparently expected in a few days to fix some things that got in because the patch wasn't really expected to be released right now, by the way...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 01, 2015, 01:48:34 am
I finally got around to finding a combat magic I understand. A medium sized forward army got utterly wrecked by some Unmarked and a giant wolf SC pretender. Like... holy shit, 45 casualties, one enemy killed. So I panicked a bit, and gathered most of my forces into a 200 strong horde. I took 12 soothsayers and 4 Enarie and setup a mind burn spamming communion which actually worked quite nicely. Not that I ever got to use it on anything strong because instead of meeting me in the field the AI has been leaving small or medium armies in my path to die while taking back territory behind the army. Some asshole claimed a throne that filled the world with disease, so between that and the starvation there's been like 40 non-combat deaths. But in theory the mind burn should overcome the fact that my wimpy spears and arrows can't hurt the enemy giants.
I also got a rainbow great sage, who found all sorts of sweet gems for me. Unfortunately I can't use most of them, and his paths are too low to forge anything useful except for the Astral boosting ring. I guess the idea is since I'm focusing on Astral I'll be able to convert them on a 1:2 ratio and that combined with my solid research will let me do baleful star, wish, doom, all that fun stuff.
Not sure if I'll actually continue it, SP seems a bit too much work. The strategy I'm using in my SP game (not in the MP one, don't really have a strategy for that) involves moving around a bunch of cheap Soothsayers and independent commanders around. It all takes a while. I'm actually looking forward to my MP turns for once, so that's nice. I almost want to join another but for a while I was terrible at submitting turns and not having fun so I'll wait to see if this lasts.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 01, 2015, 03:01:38 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 04, 2015, 10:38:03 am
Well, the only immediate benefit to me is the various changes and bugfixes. I am assuming I shouldn't poke my head into multiplayer for quite a while still. :P
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 04, 2015, 10:50:51 am
That said it would be wise to at least be able to play the first dozen or two turns somewhat competently with your chosen nation. That portion of the game is mostly against independents whether you play AI or against humans. Once indies are dead it's like night and day between SP and MP and as such you can't really learn what happens after that.
Bay12 seems to lean towards mixed skill games, though we've had a newbie game or two. I'm not sure if there's enough player populace to start another purely newbie game, maybe. If not, you should be able to get a low skill game fairly easily in the official MP forum on desura:
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/board/arena-of-the-gods-mp-games
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 05, 2015, 10:51:33 am
For my part, I just learned that you can spend gems to cast combat spells that are above your path level, provided you spend no more gems total on the spell than your path level. So level 2 can boost to level 4, unless the level 4 spell requires gems to be cast normally. Of course checking out the spell list I realized that pretty much the only spells this can be effectively used for require path level 2, which is already quite attainable without using gems. I guess it could be decent if you wanted to send your wimpy research mages out to fight.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 20, 2015, 01:04:13 am
Anyway, I decided to try something different and go for a W9E4 bless. I figured with quick berserker giants I would have a bunch of offense. Unfortunately I kinda forgot to check their encumbrance, which was 5. So they would take 10 fatigue per turn of melee combat with quickness :/
Is this useless? I'm thinking I could maybe up it to E9, or fight a non-domkill faction. But my PD is outperforming my sacreds, which might be a sign to think of a better bless. Probably boring old E4N9.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 20, 2015, 01:22:00 am
You may also discover problems keeping them fed if you invade, because of how much supply they need in Ermor's supplyless deadlands (if you don't kill Ermor before they deplete their population). Heh. The supply items all require nature to make, too.
The last time I played SP I defeated Ermor by accidentally domkilling the AI (because the AI made its pretenders with low dominion values), but I was slowly driving its walls of undead back... And I was playing MA Ulm, so I had troops who were good at killing undead, but not quite as good as some other nations. MA Ulm is basically 'easy' mode, in that they have badass fighters that can roll over their foes, and can buff their resources, and have priests that can throw iron darts and iron blizzards, but they are otherwise weak in terms of magic (and weak to magic).
Mind you, I don't think people play MA Ermor in MP much, mostly because it's a good way to get dogpiled. Same with Sceleria.
Against Ermor, the easiest, cheapest strategy that works for everyone (against cheap undead anyways) is to amass a metric fuckton of priests and set them all to cast banishment, and deploy them against the enemy armies, with some chaff in front to hold the undead long enough to banish them. (Ideally with your good troops behind the chaff and in front of the priests to kill anything that gets through.)
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 20, 2015, 02:25:42 am
Tried my first MA game as Ashdod in a 1v1 map, AI randomed MA Ermor. Such great practice ::)
Anyway, I decided to try something different and go for a W9E4 bless. I figured with quick berserker giants I would have a bunch of offense. Unfortunately I kinda forgot to check their encumbrance, which was 5. So they would take 10 fatigue per turn of melee combat with quickness :/
Is this useless? I'm thinking I could maybe up it to E9, or fight a non-domkill faction. But my PD is outperforming my sacreds, which might be a sign to think of a better bless. Probably boring old E4N9.
Berserking adds +2 fatigue per turn so eventually those giants will be building up 12-14 (I'm not sure if berserk fatigue gets doubled by quickness) per turn. So yeah.
And then we get to consider the fact that those giants are size-5, I'm not sure if even high defence helps you to avoid being hit when you can't get any chaff to fill the squares.
I like to use W9 when I have high defence or attack density with my sacred squares, and giants don't really offer either.
If you want to do a "different" giant bless, I'd look into B9, N9 and/or a mix of minors. Yeah N9B9 isn't exactly novel, but I don't think it's as popular these days anymore. And perhaps the new pricing system makes a rainbow mage with S4B4F4 with or without N9 viable. I don't know, just thinking aloud at this point. I probably shouldn't, B4 on a giant is a horrible waste of points. So uh, B9S4?
W seems a bit suspect because your giant will get hit, size-5 really hurts there. F minor could work, attack 12 (+2 from berserk) is good, but I suppose it could be improved a bit. B as a major has its perks. MR will be one of the things people will try to target so that's not a bad thing to buff via S bless. D feels a bit useless, but I guess you could toss together a D9N9 Demilich and giggle at the novelty, there are worse ways to play if you ask me. Throw in S4 for demilich mobility as much as MR boost for the sacreds.
A is as useless as ever for these guys and you seem to be aware of the ubiquity of N/E.
So there's some food for thought. You can't really beat N/E for giants, but some variety is nice, either because you want to surprise people or concentrate more on scales. Definitely do E8 minimum if you want to continue experimenting W9Ex, there's just too much fatigue otherwise.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 21, 2015, 03:20:17 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 22, 2015, 04:33:41 pm
Some interesting things I found within a set of 20 generated EA races:
A ridiculously powerful sacred fomorian, with both soldier and commander variants. They all dual wield broadswords, one of which is enchanted, have ambidextrous 4, solid armor, are amphibious, have gift of water 50 and sailing 999, and have throwing axes because why not. Oh and almost as much health as a Neifel Giant. Most sacreds in this mod only have like 1 or 2 special features, so these guys won the awesomeness roulette. Said race also includes apes riding giant spiders.
A sacred of normal size and power, that's only unusual quality is a glaive which paralyzes other sacreds on hit.
A race with two pairs of mages, both pairs have blood and then depending on which one you hire either air or death, the more expensive pair is slow to hire but gets some extra stuff and a guaranteed B3. That seems like a cool mechanic for something randomly generated. Also a cheap cap only infantry which is granted a second life as a ghouls when they die. Despite being in the EA, they access have both crossbows and nets.
A "Boring Mage" that randomly gets one of D3, E3, S3, or F3.
A sacred with an exceptional short bow (better damage and accuracy, no special features) and a normal axe, with Berserk +5.
A faction with an innate N4 mage with a 25% chance of N5, a 9 gold 1 resource sacred monkey with "exceptional fists" as well as a bite attack, which throws sticks and stones. Also hawk riders.
All kinds of awesome rider/mount combos. The best has to either humans riding unicorns or hoburgs riding cavemen.
A faction of hoburgs whose mages all autosummon a fire elemental at the start of fights.
And probably a bunch of other stuff I missed. Most of the factions consist of a lot of variations on the same theme combined with a couple standout units or unique mechanics, which feels pretty similar to vanilla.
Post by: Karlito on March 22, 2015, 04:43:16 pm
Post by: Farce on March 22, 2015, 06:50:44 pm
Also fun: Dudes mounted on fossilized giant skeletons.
Post by: E. Albright on March 22, 2015, 07:28:52 pm
A "Boring Mage" that randomly gets one of D3, E3, S3, or F3.
Do you have the seed (and NG version) of this nation? Boring is basically never supposed to come up as an adjective, so either that was the result of some very slim odds (which is possible) or (more likely) something not working how it was supposed to.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 22, 2015, 07:54:08 pm
"-- Nation seeds generated with seed 556118595"A "Boring Mage" that randomly gets one of D3, E3, S3, or F3.
Do you have the seed (and NG version) of this nation? Boring is basically never supposed to come up as an adjective, so either that was the result of some very slim odds (which is possible) or (more likely) something not working how it was supposed to.
"-- Nation 100: Celburg generated with seed 1876707522"
I'm reasonably sure the version I downloaded was called "nationGen_0.5.0-reupload.zip", not sure if that's the official version or not.
Post by: E. Albright on March 22, 2015, 09:07:53 pm
Spoiler: Post-0.5.0 NG content samples (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kagus on March 23, 2015, 02:42:52 pm
Post by: Culise on March 23, 2015, 03:20:02 pm
Post by: Elfeater on March 23, 2015, 03:36:49 pm
Post by: Culise on March 23, 2015, 03:56:03 pm
Is there a link to the nation gen update?
They're "quasi-unofficial", insofar as they're made with the knowledge, blessing, and input of Elmokki, but no actual participation since he doesn't have time to work on it himself. Latest version is here (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/nationgen-for-dominions-4/page/11#1032912).
EDIT: Oh, unless you meant a more direct link. In that case:
Quote from: Ealb
Get those amazing* new cloaks here: Mega.co.nz (https://mega.co.nz/#!7RkmnbAA!lQkcd5U5bMqPQZdmkYHuYTHNDWk3cQYlm-TuWctgROk)
*Cloak graphics may not actually amaze you; individual results will vary. If your amazement lasts longer than four hours, please consult a physician.
Post by: Elfeater on March 23, 2015, 04:14:16 pm
ThanksIs there a link to the nation gen update?They're "quasi-unofficial", insofar as they're made with the knowledge, blessing, and input of Elmokki, but no actual participation since he doesn't have time to work on it himself. Latest version is here (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/nationgen-for-dominions-4/page/11#1032912).
EDIT: Oh, unless you meant a more direct link. In that case:Quote from: EalbGet those amazing* new cloaks here: Mega.co.nz (https://mega.co.nz/#!7RkmnbAA!lQkcd5U5bMqPQZdmkYHuYTHNDWk3cQYlm-TuWctgROk)
*Cloak graphics may not actually amaze you; individual results will vary. If your amazement lasts longer than four hours, please consult a physician.
Post by: E. Albright on March 23, 2015, 05:48:13 pm
This update to the NationGen makes me want to run up a hundred or so nations, load the Oeridia map, and go hog wild. :D
You'll get "too many sprites in the mod" errors with 100 nations. You should be okay with 40 or so, though.
I'm pretty happy with the general diversity of nation sets that get generated right now. Not perfectly happy, and there's a slew of new features and other nations I'd like to see added, but I'm reasonably happy with the mods it generates right now. Not that this stops me from still adding more, mind you.
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2015, 05:51:07 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 23, 2015, 06:00:53 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 23, 2015, 06:09:19 pm
The second is that any unit generated with gift of water breathing 50 or sailing 999 will automatically have BOTH, which seems to override sailing in favor of water breathing. Also it seems to mainly happen to sacreds that are both commanders and units, which is unfortunate because neither of those abilities has any effect unless its a commander which has them.
Post by: E. Albright on March 23, 2015, 06:34:21 pm
The part with the sailing/waterbreathing sounds odd. I'll look at the filters.
Unless... are those Fomorian Giants? That's standard for all of them. They're also all sacred. The troops get them both too based on how the system works, but it won't matter unless they get GoR'd. Now, if the combination of those two powers disables one of them, that's news to me, kinda disturbing, and frankly sounds like a game error since that's a combo that exists on Fomorians in the vanilla game.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 23, 2015, 09:19:14 pm
Edit: the stealth thing is worth pushing a bit simply to communicate to the player better, stealth +0 seems intuitively wrong.
Post by: Karlito on March 23, 2015, 11:03:18 pm
For stealth, IIRC non-scout-types get either +0 or +20. That might be worth pushing up a bit. For units, it wouldn't matter (0-50 and 51+ are the only meaningful value ranges) but commanders of course are another story.
I poked around on the mod inspector for a bit, and it looks like in the base game the lowest stealth value assigned to any unit is 20 (Raven of the underworld). Most human units and the like have stealth +40.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 26, 2015, 04:13:06 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 26, 2015, 06:34:03 am
Post by: Frumple on March 26, 2015, 08:13:41 am
And yeah, making the spells cheap is trivially easy. I think you might even be able to mod a cheap one that only works on certain units, but I'm far from sure on that.
You might be able to make a request on... desura, I think is where the devs look these days? For the functionality you're looking for.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 26, 2015, 01:05:25 pm
One thing I considered was to make a global GoR that is extremely cheap and only effects the specific units I want to become commanders, but that sounds like work. And there's still the question of who would cast it. It appears spells can be made to only target specific types of units using the #damagemon command, but its poorly explained in the manual which is a bad sign.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 26, 2015, 03:43:44 pm
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/gifts-for-all
Best case scenario, that works for you as is. But tweaking or copying parts should get you pretty far.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 29, 2015, 02:00:00 pm
What can you do with these paths, including at the late game?
Post by: E. Albright on March 29, 2015, 02:43:44 pm
Post by: Karlito on March 29, 2015, 03:37:10 pm
Post by: Boksi on March 29, 2015, 03:45:41 pm
You need to be magical in order to put water in a bottle, you see, and there's a lot of demand for bottled water out there.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 29, 2015, 03:47:26 pm
If you have both on one mage, casting Naiad Warriors is pretty fun.
Speaking of those crosspaths, Bone melter (W3N2, AoE1) and Liquify (W4, AoE3) are both pretty fun spells if you can pull them off. MR-negates instakill spells. Between high path requirements and alt-5/8 means you won't be casting them often, but instakilling is always fun when you can manage it.
And Naiad warriors are probably one of the better summons when it comes to cost efficiency and actual performance. Decent gear, awe, mage-turn efficient, can't complain about them.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 30, 2015, 01:38:37 am
I've got MA Tien Chi running a communion strategy to get up to E3 and cast a big battlefield buff or debuff. This isn't my only strategy of course, but its my rush to get some combat support up.
So the way I look at it I've got two potential targets for my early research: Construction 4 and Alteration 4. Alteration gets me Curse of Stones, Destruction, and it also opens the way to some higher level spells I really want. Construction, on the other hand, will let me build Earth Boots, which lets me communion with less mages, but all it will get me in combat is Legions of Steel. Which... still seems pretty kick ass. It also of course gets me a bunch of great items and would let me kit out a titan pretender into an SC.
So, which should I go after first?
Post by: Shadowlord on March 30, 2015, 03:13:59 am
Legions of Steel can boost your regular troops' armor a bit (+3 per armor piece, reportedly, but it targets commanders with an AOE, rather than targeting troops, so you may have issues getting it to actually hit your troops but can potentially solve them either by embedding your mages or embedding dummy commanders for your mages to target). (I don't know if the other aoe spells work the same way, but should probably find out, heh.)
If you go for alteration you eventually hit Iron Warriors (Alteration 5), which sounds much better than Legions of Steel but gives your troops an elemental weakness that your enemies could potentially take advantage of (extra damage from lightning). You can, however, combine it with legions of steel. You also get Marble Warriors at Alt 7, which is stronger, and has a different elemental weakness (extra damage from cold).
Curse of Stones was unimpressive when I tried it (too slow to be useful, considering how fast the killing happens). Destruction's potentially useful, but it won't work on anything with magical armor, which means it's useless against SCs and the various summoned troops etc which come with magic gear. Same for the one-person variant of the spell with the confusing name... Armor of Achilles? Yes. You'd think that would make you invulnerable except for your heel, but nooooo. :P
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 30, 2015, 03:22:45 am
Mostly I struggle with finding a good early game, to setup the late game. It's just - build any big unit with trample or high protection, fill with smaller units incase its a "big-size" unit and always use the commander slot to build something, repeat and conquer... yet it feels to slow unless I play pangeaa and just punch face.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 30, 2015, 04:09:11 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 30, 2015, 07:40:21 am
-snip-
Actually, if I remember correctly, magical armour only refers to the stuff that you need to forge gems for. In other words, any unit with armour can have it be destroyed with Destruction. Even summoned units. Though I don't remember Destruction having a large AoE so spamming it might not be the best idea. This is all going off of memory though.
-snip-
Nothing wrong with always playing a nation that you like and are good with.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 30, 2015, 07:43:24 am
So, new question.
I've got MA Tien Chi running a communion strategy to get up to E3 and cast a big battlefield buff or debuff. This isn't my only strategy of course, but its my rush to get some combat support up.
So the way I look at it I've got two potential targets for my early research: Construction 4 and Alteration 4. Alteration gets me Curse of Stones, Destruction, and it also opens the way to some higher level spells I really want. Construction, on the other hand, will let me build Earth Boots, which lets me communion with less mages, but all it will get me in combat is Legions of Steel. Which... still seems pretty kick ass. It also of course gets me a bunch of great items and would let me kit out a titan pretender into an SC.
So, which should I go after first?
I wouldn't go for earth boots until you actually have something worth casting. Legions of Steel is certainly a nice troop buff, but I'd prefer more casting options for my E mages. Ench-3 for Strength of Giants, Evoc-4/5 for Blade Wind, Gifts from Heaven, Earthquake, Alt-4/5 for the (de)buffs and Maws of the Earth. And perhaps Conj-3 for Summon Earthpower and lesser elementals, SEP is less research than boots at the expense of a combat turn it takes to be cast.
In general I go for construction as my third or fourth school, so I might be a tad blind to the opportunities to be had there early. I'd probably go for either alt or ench first (with thau-1 of course) if playing MA T'ien Ch'i, then follow up with alt/ench or conj. I haven't played or tested much MA TC though.
edit:
Destruction may or may not be best against SC's, but it's great for fighting heavily armoured nations like Ulm, Abysia or any of the giants. And you're lot more likely to see troops rather than SC's, especially early on.
Post by: tompliss on March 30, 2015, 07:55:03 am
There may not be many, but they exist.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 30, 2015, 08:30:55 am
-snip-
Nothing wrong with always playing a nation that you like and are good with.
Oh I love Ry'leh, but it seems everyone does and it rarly free in Multiplayer games and more of a lategame-nation anyway - which is a bit of a issue since most "other" water nations win the water war... or at least against me. I do love there sneakyness and the ability to sell my mind-attacks to players for a few more rounds of having my peace.
Post by: E. Albright on March 30, 2015, 02:03:30 pm
I'm fairly sure Legions of Steel targeting was fixed within the last few patches, but I couldn't find any mention of it during a quick googling.
The patch notes are indeed mum on this subject, but a quick test will show that LoS has finally discarded its legacy Dom1 targeting mechanisms and at long last targets units like every other spell.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 05, 2015, 02:36:52 am
Post by: E. Albright on April 05, 2015, 11:25:47 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 05, 2015, 12:08:52 pm
What's the nagot gik fel message? My first thought is that there are AI players who are trying to cast spells that don't exist.
"Pointless spellfx"
Edit: The mystery deepens. I tried adding #clearallspells to an otherwise empty mod as a test, and... nothing happened. All the old spells were there.
Then I started adding it to legit mods I had already downloaded, and got the same "Pointless spellfx" error.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 13, 2015, 08:58:06 pm
Post by: Karlito on April 13, 2015, 09:08:32 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 13, 2015, 09:15:30 pm
Separate question: is beginning the construction of my first fort on turn 3 a "just because you can doesn't mean you should" situation?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 13, 2015, 09:20:04 pm
So, trying out MA Jotunheim. If I want to dip into blood, how important is it to go construction 4 first to get SDRs? Considering that I have some use for construction anyway.
MA Jotunhiem? You have the Vaetti hags to bloodhunt. With SDRs they count as B2, so they should find slaves 90% of the time. You should also have much more of them kicking around than Skratti since they're forest recruit and they're slightly cheaper on your upkeep too. Though with that being said, if you do have some Skratti kicking around then bloodhunting with them isn't the worse idea in the world.
Gottcha.
Separate question: is beginning the construction of my first fort on turn 3 a "just because you can doesn't mean you should" situation?
As with all things, it depends. As long as it doesn't hamper your expansion and the fort will be build in a fairly good location I'd say to go for it.
Post by: Karlito on April 13, 2015, 09:26:00 pm
Post by: tompliss on April 14, 2015, 12:11:43 am
Separate question: is beginning the construction of my first fort on turn 3 a "just because you can doesn't mean you should" situation?Do you use Cap-only troops to expand ?
If so, I would delay the fort a bit.
Typically, with giant nations, you can expand without loosing troops. This means that the first troops you produce can give you more territory. It also depends on the positions of your neighbours, of course, but you could gain more provinces by delaying your first fort by 2-6 turns.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 19, 2015, 01:37:14 pm
Post by: ArKFallen on April 19, 2015, 01:45:48 pm
Anyone know exactly how damage vs protection is calculated? The manual refers to a "random number", but its not clear exactly what that random number is.
Quote from: pg8
It is one of those pages that is early, very easy to gloss over, and extremely important.Dominions Random Number (DRN)
Most Dominions game mechanisms use something called the Dominions Random Number (DRN). When a random number is called for, the number used is actually a DRN. This is a roll of two six-sided dice (2d6) but with an additional bonus: if any individual die roll is “6,” one is subtracted, and then that die is re-rolled and added to the result. This is referred to as an “open-ended” 2d6 roll. Example: The game calls for a DRN. Two dice are rolled and they come up 2,6. Because one of the dice was a “6,” one is subtracted from the total (making 7), and the die is rolled again. But this die is also a 6. So one is subtracted from the total (now up to 12) and a die is rolled again. It is a 4. The final
result for this DRN is 16.
Note that if both original dice came up as 6, both would be re-rolled and added as above. If a die keeps coming up 6, it keeps getting re-rolled and added, which can very occasionally lead to large numbers. Dominions has a lot of situations where something is very unlikely to happen, like a militia soldier hitting an ethereal monster. However, in the real world of Dominions, very few things are actually
impossible. To model this fact as closely as can be, the Dominions Random Number was created. With it, it is always possible for such an event to occur, which would not be the case if the roll was not openended. In some very few cases, there may only one six-sided die rolled. It is still open-ended, but in this case, the rules refer to it as a drn, in lower-case letters. An example is the dispelling of global enchantments.
I don't remember whether elemental damage (fire/cold/etc) hits resistance or protection first.
Post by: Kagus on April 20, 2015, 02:54:22 am
Oh right, forgot about the existence of hags. They'll certainly benefit from the dowsing rods.
Neeeever forget about hags, my friend. They're fantastic little bitches. So versatile, so easy to push out... Golden.
Also with the change of SDR only helping blood mages, rather than anyone who could hold a stick, it's really more of a question now whether or not to jump for them. Yeah, the difference between 1-2B is huge for hunting, so that's definitely worth picking up if those are gonna be your primary hunters, but outside of that... Eh, I'll leave that for the smarties to work out.
But yes, start churning out hags. You can't really ask for more in a blood hunter/communion slave/skellyspammer/vinespammer.
Post by: Shadowlord on June 02, 2015, 04:10:37 pm
It's a 29 player map with start positions for every EA nation.
#necromancy
Post by: Culise on June 02, 2015, 06:32:02 pm
This looks amazing: http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/archaea-early-age-releaseOooh...
It's a 29 player map with start positions for every EA nation.
#necromancy
...I can't be the only one here who immediately thought, "now we just need to pull together 28 other players here". ^_^
Post by: Karlito on June 02, 2015, 06:35:54 pm
Post by: PrimusRibbus on June 02, 2015, 07:15:37 pm
Our dominions community is probably more in the 15-20 player range, sadly. I'm not really sure I see the appeal of the HUGE games either.
All the huge games I played in were absolutely horrific, both from a logistics standpoint and a gameplay standpoint. Something like a 4-5 team disciple game might work with that amount of players, but FFAs are awful.
Post by: Shadowlord on June 02, 2015, 07:23:42 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 02, 2015, 07:25:36 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 02, 2015, 11:42:48 pm
Post by: Karlito on June 03, 2015, 12:03:09 am
Post by: Jilladilla on June 03, 2015, 02:07:21 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 03, 2015, 08:09:54 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 03, 2015, 12:02:29 pm
2v2v2v2, no restrictions on pretender design or choices.
Age is picked by vote of participating players
Every team drafts two nations Catan style (teams pick first nation in random order and then second nation in the reverse of that order, so fourth team to pick picks twice in a row)
Any appropriate map as long as its double wrap, start positions are pre-set with teammates starting closest to each other.
Post by: E. Albright on June 16, 2015, 06:48:24 am
Post by: Un67 on June 16, 2015, 06:53:30 am
Post by: E. Albright on June 16, 2015, 07:16:58 am
Marignon would give you reasonably strong troops, and excellent but one-dimensional mages - just study Evocation for the most part, and burn things.
On that last note, MA or EA Abysia also are fairly friendly to new players - super-heavy, expensive infantry and fire, fire, fire.
Post by: Kagus on June 16, 2015, 08:25:32 am
Also, someone else should probably bring up the "first few steps" as to what to do in the very beginning... Only thing I'd heard was to try and take at least one province every turn after the first (so you get at least some reports on the provinces surrounding the capital before charging in) and getting a second castle finished before the first year is out.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 16, 2015, 04:50:09 pm
What an army means isn't as obvious as first apparent. Fighting independents you might get the impression that war is about morale and melee superiority. Your blob of infantry hits there's, one wraps around the other, and then within a couple of turns one of them routs. But against an actual human opponent, both of your armies will fill the entire width of the battlefield. Since units prioritize attacking horizontally over diagonally IIRC, this means each tile of infantry will only be hitting a single tile of enemies. Not good for a quick breakthrough.
So you need a way to do damage that isn't your frontline. This is where your mage support comes in (its mage support at first, at a certain point it flips over and your armies are supporting your mages). Your goal in the early game should be to pick a school and then have effective magic support for your armies using either the 4th or 5th level research of that school. Often in the second year one spell could be all you need to use, provided its a really good spell. What you tell your mages to use will define what kind of army you have. To make a very broad generalization, there are two types of armies in Dominions:
1. Armies which rely on ranged damage from the back line and use the frontline as a delay. This means evocation mages usually, but it could also mean fire arrow armies, or demons that have magic ranged attacks.
2. Armies that bias the battlefield in their favor so the front line wins a slow battle. This includes blessed sacreds, undead spam, fatigue causing globals, army buffs, probably some other things I've forgotten. The key point here is survivability; if you go up against the first type of army, you need to last long enough so that their evocation mages fall unconscious from spellcasting fatigue and their ranged units to run out of ammo. Usually this means having a vast HP pool and/or a lot of shields. If you go up against a flaming arrows army negating the flame effect is paramount, evocation mages generally only get off 3-5 spells but each archer will get at least a dozen shots and archers are cheaper than mages. Fire resistance is ideal, protection could be a poor substitute if necessary.
As the game goes on there'll be stranger and meaner strats, but for the most part its all one of those two. I'd recommend the first for newbs, but if you do want to try the second try to find a guide to narrow down what's viable for your faction. As the game goes on and you research more types of magic, most factions will start using both types of armies or combinations.
Also, if you want to go on the offensive in MP keep this in mind: wars are fought in two arenas: massing as much power into one province as possible (armies) and getting the most cost efficient unit together that can beat the enemy province defense (raiding). If you want to win a war, you need to be able to deal defensively with BOTH types of combat. If one side wins the army battle and one side wins the raiding battle, both of you are going to lose the game because neither of you has an effective defense against the other. Remember, even if the front is short they might have stealth or flying raiders so always be vigilant and always look up your neighbor's factions on the internet.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on June 16, 2015, 05:01:28 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 16, 2015, 05:32:01 pm
That and after a while basic nationals in most cases will begin to lose power to Thugs and Super Combatants. Creatures that are kitted up with strong artifacts that can deal well with armies with only one or two units.
I'd argue that to be somewhat nation specific. I've had success playing various nations without SC's. Mages can kill SC's, mages can kill armies, and mages can buff your troops to act as ridiculously sturdy meat shields while mages kill everything.
But I've been on both sides of the thug/SC strategy as well, and they can definitely do a lot of damage if they're built properly.
edit:
To summarize, I suppose it would be most accurate to say that research triumphs, whether that RP is put towards SC summons/gear or general mage awesomeness.
Post by: Frumple on June 16, 2015, 05:46:02 pm
There's not really any primary factor to what determines victory in a Dominions game, I'd say. You need research, but it's useless if you can't leverage it, and it can get you killed if the forces and gold you're allocating to RP generation is what you need to keep from getting stepped on. You need provinces, but they're useless if they're not doing anything for you, or you can't keep them. SCs are great, but they're not helping you much if someone's got a cadre of astral mages dropping VotD on them every turn and you don't have enough MR on the critter to stop it, or the various other sorts of shenanigans being played. Awesome mages do jack-all if you're losing them in droves to slim kit assassins. The list just sorta' goes on.
What triumphs in a Dominions game is getting what you need(/can) and using it well, be that research, provinces, gems, particular troops, or all of the above and then some. Victory in these games seem to be more a balancing act than anything, with whoever balances best coming out ahead.
Post by: sum1won on June 25, 2015, 04:37:32 am
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tw3uQDvH6RosHpdWhtgOxZq0lx4g-tzDwZtc6TVf1-c/edit?usp=sharing
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tw3uQDvH6RosHpdWhtgOxZq0lx4g-tzDwZtc6TVf1-c/edit?usp=sharing)
UW is not currently touched. This is mostly dealing with wide-ranging problems - I'm not as interested in making tweaking slime or improving totem shield as I am in addressing flagship issues that seem to crop up frequently. The three primary areas are: Nations, Magic, Pretenders. This might include (near)useless globals - but mostly in schools that are already underwhelming - or game-changing spells.
I know there are people who disagree with a number of these claims, which is why it allows suggestions. The purpose of this document is to allow for the identification of different problems with balance and allow people to either argue why they are not problems, or to identify solutions. Not all "problems" nor all "solutions" will necessarily be addressed in any resulting mod. At the moment it is a brainstorming tool, not a blueprint.
There are multiple balance mods, but currently most of them have been arbitrary in either their identification of problems, identification of solutions, or both. There has also been a great deal of disagreement on which are appropriate.
For "problems" that multiple mods have identified, I'd like to list the various proposed solutions. For example, there are at least 5 mods that attempt to "fix" yomi, with varying "fixes." I think it stands that Yomi could use a shot in the arm, but there is disagreement on what that shot should entail. Putting them side by side should help with that.
It is a googledoc because I am crossposting it to multiple forums, and don't want people to be forced to register in one place to discuss it. There are some forums I don't have access to or don't regularly visit - please feel free to cross post this to those as well. It is not in "edit" mode because I'd like to have some curation ability given the likelyhood that some persons will try to mess with it. If somebody has an alternate solution, I'm all ears.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 25, 2015, 11:23:48 pm
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tw3uQDvH6RosHpdWhtgOxZq0lx4g-tzDwZtc6TVf1-c/edit?usp=sharingHeh, ignoring the most obvious issue in the game I see :P I can understand why, UW is seriously broken.
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tw3uQDvH6RosHpdWhtgOxZq0lx4g-tzDwZtc6TVf1-c/edit?usp=sharing)
UW is not currently touched.
When I first looked at the doc I was expecting a whine list but I agree with almost everything I read (stopped at nations, don't really know enough about specific ones to care). So good job with that.
Post by: nenjin on June 26, 2015, 01:25:13 am
Likewise, I'll have armies that steam roll everything for turns on end until one of my leaders gets et by an Astral Horror because, when I roll back my saves, I realized I was Horror Marked (Cursed, etc..) turns and turns ago by some POS Independent Shaman.
I also agree, even from SP, about the need to make ground quickly in the first year. My motivation is the Hall of Fame, personally. The sooner you get heroes into the HoF, and they stay in it, the better those bonuses get. And you have to be pretty aggressively rack up XP before it fills up in a game of 5 players.
Getting a magic finding crew together can be tough, but since I'm not necessarily under pressure when I play because the AI is AI, I try to build a rainbow team to get all the gems flowing. And that is a serious investment in gems unless you luck out finding the easy magic sites.
Post by: Shadowlord on June 26, 2015, 05:16:31 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 26, 2015, 11:58:02 am
I mean if you're fighting the impossible AI they might get an impressive amount of light infantry together or something. But a human player might get a dozen evocation mages that don't need any boosters and rain death on you from the first turn. Or get 30+ high end giant sacreds together or something. Or spam demons and start every battle with rain of blood. 150 crossbowman with fire arrows, that kind of thing. It a whole different game.
Also, Dominions is kind of a board game in that you need to read the general feeling of the players and convince them to act in a way that you want them to. Diplomacy is super important; I'd say for a lot of the weaker factions your basic strategy versus bless rush nations is "use diplomacy and luck to make sure you don't get in an early war with them".
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 26, 2015, 01:13:49 pm
Fingers crossed imprisoned scales oracle gets you really far if it works, but that's a pretty big if in certain match-ups.
Btw, has the water patch been released yet and if not, what's the ETA on that? If it takes a while longer it could be a good opportunity to get back on the PBEM wagon.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 26, 2015, 01:41:20 pm
Post by: Frumple on June 26, 2015, 03:08:22 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 26, 2015, 03:20:09 pm
Btw, has the water patch been released yet and if not, what's the ETA on that? If it takes a while longer it could be a good opportunity to get back on the PBEM wagon.
Still not out, and ETA isn't clear. Speculation is leaning towards August, but that's just speculation. Judging by the changelog, it looks like there's still some work to be done based on what has and has not been discussed for inclusion, though.
Post by: sum1won on June 27, 2015, 07:59:31 pm
I thought it was funny that EA Kailasa was listed as a weak nation, but MA Bandar Log wasn't.
If you think that Bandar Log is as deserving as Kailasa, or Kailasa isn't, please explain why? That's kind of why I'm posting this.
Post by: Shadowlord on June 27, 2015, 09:41:41 pm
Spoiler: because it's a lot of text (click to show/hide)
Overall they don't look quite as bad as I thought they would. I'd probably need to actually give them a try to see how it works out. The biggest problems I'm anticipating so far might be getting started early (as far as being able to knock over neighboring indies), early site-searching diversity, and getting enough gems to actually summon the casters you want to use.
Post by: Kagus on June 28, 2015, 04:51:58 am
I had some funny times trying to find a way of shoving Bandar Log into being a blood nation, since they get the blood summons of Lanka... Including other blood mages. Don't think I ever found a particularly elegant solution for that though, although I did wonder a bit about synergies with one of Log's random heroes, the white ape.
Normally not hugely interesting, he does provide a massive unrest reduction for the province he's in, as well as freespawning more units that further reduce unrest. Might be fun to plant them in a hunting province and let them get the angry parents to calm their tits about all the sacrifices.
Post by: E. Albright on June 28, 2015, 11:19:13 am
Post by: Shadowlord on June 28, 2015, 11:21:27 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 28, 2015, 11:56:41 am
Post by: Frumple on June 28, 2015, 12:07:20 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 28, 2015, 01:17:16 pm
Post by: etgfrog on July 03, 2015, 12:31:41 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 03, 2015, 01:08:25 am
The only pretender that's worth planning to kill from turn 1 is an awake SC in a neighboring nation. And that's only a major concern defensively. Planning to assassinate pretenders in their own territory from before the game starts is simply not viable or useful.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 03, 2015, 01:56:26 am
If you were going to assassinate my pretender - in most games, I would be slightly annoyed, at best (But I almost always take imprisoned pretenders). I would also probably have teleported him to another fort as soon as you assassinated the first researcher in the same fort as him. So I'm not sure how well that would work out. Especially if I started bombing the province with mind hunt the same turn I teleported him out. (Not that I always have mind hunt :V)
If assassinating enemy pretenders with your own pretender was a viable strategy, I'd wager that the Teotl of the Night would be better because (a) He's already an assassin and has stealth 70, so you don't need the black heart or the amulet of the dopppelganger, (b) He can fly, so his victims only get one round to cast before he pops over next to them, (c) He can carry a normal suite of items if you do decide to fully kit him out.
Of course, that's purely theoretical, because he doesn't have scale walls. Maybe the target will come out - if they're a combat pretender, or to site-search, or w/e. Even if you had a guaranteed plan to take them out with your assassin pretender if they came out of their castles, you're still wasting turns your pretender could have done other things, just on the chance that you might be able to waste their future turns (and they'll probably just call him back).
I wouldn't do it, personally.
If you wanted to assassinate pretenders, you'd likely do better to look for national commanders with scalewalls.
Post by: E. Albright on July 03, 2015, 02:08:53 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on July 03, 2015, 02:17:01 am
Hm...this is highly skeptical on being able to pull off because all that is required, C'tis nation, Devourer of Souls pretender, get to construction 8, make and equip the black heart (blood 2) and amulet of the doppelganger(air 3) to pretender. Run into enemy capital and instant kill the enemy pretender. I'm also thinking you have probably already wasted too much resources by the time you could pull that off, and luck plays just as big of a factor. It actually might be easier to go with a Teotl of the night and add equipment if your going that route.
Anything that requires lvl 8 research is at best theorycrafting if you ask me. That is, until you sit on a successful lategame save. But on the concept of assassin pretenders? Opportunity cost is a bit too high for my taste. Thinking about it, what's the best my assassin/pretender can do? Kill a single target per turn. And what's the worst that could happen? They die. Since you can't target anyone specifically, there's a high chance that the single target I kill per turn is a worthless indie commander or a labrat (I'm assuming MP here). It just doesn't even begin to be worth the pretender slot when I could be using it for something a lot more awesome and powerful than a dead indie commander per turn.
That said it's an amusing idea for SP, and if you ever come up with a quasi-viable MP gimmick I'd be amused to hear it as well. But for serious play it just doesn't sound viable. Too high chance of it effectively doing nothing, which is bad because most pretender designs could be used instead to at the very least do something. Assassinations are something that works if you can mass them, and pretenders by definition can't be massed.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 03, 2015, 02:21:48 am
Or just meet them on the open field of battle and win. That's how most pretenders are slain.
The main thing I could see for an assassin pretender is to find someone's capital early and then be a real dick by assassinating every commander that gets hired while simultaneously domkilling them. But that sort of thing is frowned upon in this MP community (see "let people at least play the first few turns" in the copy/pasted guidelines). Like how it would also be a dick move to guess someone's capital location and cripple them with a first turn dragon attack. Not that attempting that is even a good idea.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 03, 2015, 02:27:34 am
You could give the teotl boots of the behemoth and see if he can catch someone smaller. Maybe some 0 or 1 encumbrance armor to make up for the 3 protection he has without burdening him much. (I had other suggestions to fully kit him out, but by the time you've made them all, he'd be a stealthy army killer who happens to have 'assassin' as an ability that he probably doesn't bother to use much, and you'd have spent a great deal of time researching construction and making things for him and having him traipse around)
P.S. Bane venom charms are hilarious. Include a Miraculous Cure All Elixer on the same guy to keep him alive indefinitely, or at least until you lose the game or the enemy patrols get so big that they get past your stealth. The only downside is Gift of Health cures its diseases. :'(
Post by: etgfrog on July 03, 2015, 03:31:34 am
I've lost one expansion party when meeting a 280 undead army at a neutral territory. While I feel like I've taken more territory then average, I don't have a plan to deal with undead. Muuch mages are mostly nature and water, there is some earth, death and level 1 priests...any suggestions?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 03, 2015, 03:38:28 am
Don't use low level attack magic against them unless the caster is cheap, which would generally mean few combat stats or extraneous paths. The Sauromatian's spirit guides would be great for dust to dust, as would Jotunhiem's Vaetti Hags. A Gynja, on the other hand, not so much.
Post by: Kagus on July 03, 2015, 05:45:50 am
And unless they got a love in the last update or so, MA Xibalba is... Kinda boned anyways. Not a particularly strong nation in any sense.
I forget, do the Zot jaguar-shamans have death magic, or is it just blood and nature?
Post by: etgfrog on July 03, 2015, 07:43:08 am
I guess MA Xibalba is more of being able to do many different things, all recruitable troops are amphibious or flying. On the magic side of things, mainly lacks fire and air, everything else is somewhat easy to get 2 in.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 03, 2015, 08:29:24 am
I also wasn't impressed with maggots - it worked far too slowly, as compared to the speed of a long dead horseman rush. :P
I was probably expecting too much of it. :P
N9Ex sacred armies alone can demolish undead. Well, certain sacreds, anyways. I'm only vaguely familiar with xibalba, enough to know ma has completely different units from ea.
Post by: E. Albright on July 03, 2015, 11:32:45 am
If you want to have BVC infiltrators that don't die from their disease, a ring of regen is cheaper than a cure-all and works just as well. Likewise, if your bless is N9 a shroud will do. For that matter, Eye Pendants aren't cheaper but are possibly easier to forge. Or just use something like a Black Servant (or a Spectral Mage with S1+, if your enemy has mindhunters, hehehe) that doesn't care about disease. My personal favorite is to lure an army into sieging a castle where I can prolong the siege and don't really care about the province, and then putting the BVCs on commanders inside the walls. With enough BVCs, even one or two turns can devastate a sieging army...
Post by: Shadowlord on July 03, 2015, 01:00:23 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 03, 2015, 01:26:15 pm
Ring of regen prevents disease? Or cures it? That would definitely have been cheaper. I was playing ea machaka, so I used their spies and added rangers cloaks and such as well, and, yeah, deployed them to my forts where the enemy blobs were going. (That was the other game I was playing before and during 404, before I understood SCs - I probably could have done something more useful with all those gems.)
Il Pallazo... is that you? (nobody tell him about this, or he'll become even more annoying to siege)
I believe that regeneration halts disease in its tracks; you won't lose 10% of your health every turn but you won't gain it back either. Except maybe in combat, not sure how that works.
Also, SCs and thugs are overrated in Dom 4. They can work, they absolutely can work, but you need either easy access or a really good design using your national strengths. Ideally both. The community loves the idea of them but not that many people know how to build good ones in Dom 4 where the protection rules have apparently changed to be more hostile to them. I don't think Machaka is a good SC/thug nation lategame. The best they've got is easy access to banes but banes are better in the early game when they can walk into enemy territory and start stabbing PD. Once things get clogged up with armies they lose their appeal. For the late game thugs that can teleport/air trapeze/sneak past the enemy frontline using their innate skills would be ideal. Like all the mounted lords with A2. You can put winged boots on banes but you have to be careful because that's a large investment by thug standards and any enemy that kills the thug will be able to make good use of the boots or trade them.
For reference, the "generic" thug has a vine shield and a frost brand and nothing else. Winged boots almost double that gem investment and provide no combat utility against PD. Winged boots + vine shield + frost brand + bane summon is 32 gems. That's two army devastating diseased scouts per bane. You probably did better with the charms. Then again if the enemy territory is spread around enough you could have hopped around and maybe persuaded your foe to split up those death stacks a little chasing them down.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 03, 2015, 02:09:11 pm
* I was in a corner and both people surrounding me were something like 3-5 times as big, so I figured I'd make some WMD. :3
Post by: etgfrog on July 03, 2015, 06:41:20 pm
I've had difficulty pulling off dust to dust in the past because of how close you have to get to cast it. Did you figure out a way to get your mages to keep distance?I stopped telling them to cast dust to dust each turn and just turned on spells, they would cast various buff spells then start casting dust to dust once enemies were in range. The AI seems to be rather efficient with it, but that may be from the lack of spells. More often then not they would cast quicken self then dust to dust. Although during the fights EVERY enemy commander had a staff of the storms, so accuracy may have been way off. I also had 100-200 or so Muuch warriors backed up by 10 priests and/or dust mages. For 10 gold and 4 resource the Muuch warrior is pretty good.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on July 03, 2015, 06:48:45 pm
I've had difficulty pulling off dust to dust in the past because of how close you have to get to cast it. Did you figure out a way to get your mages to keep distance?
Haven't scripted a battle in few months, but...
Have some troops ahead of the mages. Have the mages either cast something else or on attack orders, then dust-to-dust. Ideally, there should be a constant thick line of friendly troops between your mages and the enemy. Of course, battles have a way of going down south fast, and forward placing mages is always a risk. But that's how I've done it in the past with reasonable success.
But something to keep in mind: sometimes you don't need anti-undead spells. Sometimes anti-everything works just fine. Thunder doesn't care what it's hitting ;)
edit:
obviously all that advice could go to heck if you're handling flying mages like zotz. No idea how you keep those guys in leash.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 03, 2015, 07:07:39 pm
Also if your armies are moving around, always leave them scripted with generic orders. Put the infantry in the middle with "hold and attack" and the mages/archers behind them. Then if you get in a fight where you need forward mages, switch the scripting right before the fight so your opponent has no chance to see what your actual formation is. Only bother if there's a significant chance that you'll lose, its a bit tedious.
Post by: Blitzkrieg on July 04, 2015, 12:50:09 pm
At any rate, the game is deep and varied, but the game has not seen any major innovation in four successive games. It's basically (slightly-) better graphics and a few more factions, units, items, and spells, etc.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 04, 2015, 02:46:13 pm
And by "lag time between turns," how would you speed up the other human players? :V
Or do you only play singleplayer, and aren't considering everyone who plays PBEM?
Post by: Blitzkrieg on July 05, 2015, 01:57:14 pm
What kind of additional control would you add?
The ability to actually control units in tactical combat as it unfolds! ;)
And by "lag time between turns," how would you speed up the other human players? :V
Or do you only play singleplayer, and aren't considering everyone who plays PBEM?
Indeed. I only play SP.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 05, 2015, 02:16:53 pm
Post by: RexMundi on July 05, 2015, 02:38:01 pm
So what is good versus them? The would trample my giants, and massed arrows seemed to do jack all.
Unrelated, I see blitzkrieg, my brother goes by blitzeking, kinda close, and then shadowlord, what my other brother goes by.
Post by: pondicherry on July 05, 2015, 02:53:18 pm
I am reading the manual and I'm having soooo much fun.
I started with Arcoscephale in the Middle Age (I have so much to learn.)
"Elephants and chariots, unpredictable but devastating"
Oh and Shadowlord I did create a prophet with your name ! (if you remember...)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 05, 2015, 03:11:37 pm
hah, wasn't expecting that Il. I've a question though. how to best defeat elephants?As usual, "depends".
They have bad MR and morale, so you can try to use fascinate or panic or something to exploit that. "Resist or die" effects like Bone Melter or Soul Slay also work but they're not very available. You can increase the size of your troops or bring in a thug with an amulet of the giant, to prevent the trampling. Or an innate size 6 unit.
They have a tendency to push into infantry formations and then get attacked from all sides, so a unit with glaives or broadswords should be able to cut them to pieces with hopefully even loses. That will only work against small numbers, if they've got 20+ elephants in one place no amount of infantry will be a good idea. You might get some mileage out of cavalry, their high defense stat lets them dodge trampling and their lances might burst down the elephants, but that's a potentially expensive mistake if it doesn't work. You can also use overwhelming firepower from well equipped ranged units like crossbowmen or with evocation mages (who I believe will naturally target high-health units). Flaming arrows or wind guide could help on that front.
Skelespam sort of works too. I mean it won't kill them very quickly but its not like you care if your temp summons get trampled. Its like I always say in TBS games, being expendable is a form of tankiness.
Post by: RexMundi on July 05, 2015, 03:23:09 pm
Another question, what's the best way to maximize income? As far as I know it's order3/production3/growth3, no temp (or perfect for your nation), and no unrest. Anything else major that I'm missing? Besides the few units to increase it.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 05, 2015, 03:54:52 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 05, 2015, 04:10:59 pm
The most important thing sans taking provinces is maintenance costs on your troops and commanders. Generally speaking, in terms of efficiency from best to worst: no maintenance summons>sacreds (including priest-mages)>low gold/high resource troops>high gold/low resource troops. However high gold/low resource troops have the advantage of being able to serve as a "levy" that is only recruited in times of war. Yomi is great at this with many 1 resource troops, you can raise a hundreds of infantry in a turn. Most nations and players won't bother with this tho because its a risky strategy if you're caught unawares in MP.
For beginners I'd say the main thing is having cost-efficient researchers because as the game goes on those will often be over half your maintenance fees. There are three main strats for this: hire astral mages, because that gives a research bonus. Hire priest-mages because they have higher starting costs but halved maintenance. Or take magic scales and recruit a horde of cheap mages, because the research points magic grants are not factored in to a mage's costs or maintenance fees.
You'll want every land province to be adjacent to or containing one land fort as well. (And the same for sea provinces with sea forts)That has almost no effect on income. Its more for getting all your resources in one place where you can hire your national troops. A faction like Mictlan that has low resource costs doesn't really care about that. Still good advice that you should follow.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 05, 2015, 04:45:53 pm
You'll want every land province to be adjacent to or containing one land fort as well. (And the same for sea provinces with sea forts)That has almost no effect on income. Its more for getting all your resources in one place where you can hire your national troops. A faction like Mictlan that has low resource costs doesn't really care about that. Still good advice that you should follow.
Right. The forts also add supplies to provinces, the amount depending on their admin value (The manual says (Admin * 4) / (Distance + 1)), with four provinces being the maximum distance, and income is increased in the fort's own province by Admin/2%, so it's also useful to put your forts in high-income provinces to get a greater boost there. (In practice, I often build them where there are indie troops I want to mass-produce because of their resource-corralling functionality)
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on July 05, 2015, 04:54:46 pm
I haven't done the math, but it's not a no-brainer to get forts everywhere because you get an income bonus. Forts aren't free. In fact, if you prefer LA as much as I do you're generally paying 800-1200g for one. It takes a long while for that investment to pay itself back if I'm concerned mainly with income. You could probably crunch a few numbers to calculate some ideal amount of turns after which a fort has effectively paid for itself. But before that special turn, you're losing money by building forts (of course you get awesome things for forts so you build them anyway, just not for income reasons).
Another question, what's the best way to maximize income? As far as I know it's order3/production3/growth3, no temp (or perfect for your nation), and no unrest. Anything else major that I'm missing?
Assuming similar amount of provinces, that's indeed what keeps wealth rolling in.
But it's never the same amount of provinces. The guy with an awake dragon (or similar) will get one province per turn without any attempt at expanding with anything else. That's easily ten provinces by the end of year 1. And you can expect another 5-15 from your national troops with good expansion pace. Other option is to get a good bless (simple X9 is usually good enough) and expand like crazy with your sacreds. You don't need either though, some nations are rather good at expanding with just scales as long as they have enough income and production (favourite of mine being EA/MA Pangaea and its centaur warriors). Conventional wisdom is that your expansion is going to be slower if you don't have an awake fighting god, good sacreds or good national expanders.
Also be mindful of your upkeep. Everything you recruit should be for a purpose, and ideally cost effective at that purpose. Troops that just sit there aren't earning their keep (well they might act as a deterrent, but that's difficult to appraise). Troops that are constantly marching and fighting and winning and dying don't weigh on your treasury as much as idle troops. Of course you can't usually create a full fighting strength army in a single turn, so what I wrote above is more of an ideal one should strive towards rather than hard reality.
In an infinite game, mages with low upkeep/RP are preferrable over high upkeep/RP mages when it comes to research. This is generally opposite for battle mages, thought it varies. Of course no game of Dominions is infinite, but generally speaking, if a unit is going to sit in a province for fifty turns I'd prefer that unit to be cheap.
And tying into that, don't over recruit. I sometimes get a bit trigger happy with forts and as a result I end up recruiting far more than I can comfortably afford. It's happened once or twice that I've had a billion useless highly efficient research monkies who drain my income every turn and thus prevent me from getting stuff done as much as I'd like.
Post by: E. Albright on July 05, 2015, 05:39:54 pm
Post by: Karlito on July 05, 2015, 10:13:33 pm
hah, wasn't expecting that Il. I've a question though. how to best defeat elephants?As usual, "depends".
They have bad MR and morale, so you can try to use fascinate or panic or something to exploit that. "Resist or die" effects like Bone Melter or Soul Slay also work but they're not very available. You can increase the size of your troops or bring in a thug with an amulet of the giant, to prevent the trampling. Or an innate size 6 unit.
Prison of Fire/Earth Meld/False Fetters are the best anti-trampler spells. If they can't move they can't attack. I think beating Prison of Fire is a morale check, so that makes it well suited to elephants in particular.
Post by: RexMundi on July 05, 2015, 11:57:18 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 09, 2015, 03:53:21 pm
Here's a very early screenshot, everything being a work in progress:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Anyway, in addition to the scripted starts everyone will come equipped with a full complement of mages and armies. Some of these will be refugee armies from nations that are destroyed. There will also be sites that allow for recruitment from nations otherwise not in the scenario, for example Ermor will be able to recruit auxiliaries from nations that it conquered before the start.
Its very incomplete, I'm only posting this so that I'll be motivated to finish ;D
Post by: Blitzkrieg on July 11, 2015, 04:29:56 pm
Dominions SP is rather quite like masturbation. It's got some potential for fun, and nothing wrong with that. But complaining that the toy is not ideally suited to what you're using it for is somewhat missing the intentions behind the design.
An interesting analogy there! ;)
So is your point that the game is designed to be an exclusively MP game? If so, perhaps I chose the wrong game, period.
Post by: E. Albright on July 11, 2015, 05:37:23 pm
There are ways to spice up your SP if you're really stagnating - e.g., if I may blatantly semi-self-promote, the NationGen meta-mod procedurally one or more random nation (to include custom unit graphics) that you can play with in addition to/instead of the stock nations. Current version is 0.5.0.11E (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/nationgen-for-dominions-4/page/13#1046448), but 0.6.0 is due out in the next couple of days.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on July 11, 2015, 06:20:17 pm
Unsurprisingly, many of the posters here (Il Palazzo included) are a common sight in Bay12 Dominions MP matches.
Post by: Blitzkrieg on July 11, 2015, 06:43:54 pm
For most games, people who play a lot of MP tend to prefer human opponents over AI. Dominions is no exception. That doesn't really mean that Dominions is a bad game for SP.
Unsurprisingly, many of the posters here (Il Palazzo included) are a common sight in Bay12 Dominions MP matches.
I get that, but MP games are difficult to arrange and time-consuming. And I can imagine even more so for Dominions, since it has to be done via PBEM.
Post by: E. Albright on July 11, 2015, 06:51:36 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 11, 2015, 06:52:44 pm
It's just that due to the scale of the games almost no one has the actual time to sit down and play through a game in one go, and even massively accelerated, multi-turn/day games still can last over a week. Sometimes the games can be over quick if people are playing hyper-aggressive, but that can be pretty difficult against humans.
and ninja'd while typing, but whatever posting away!
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on July 12, 2015, 07:43:31 am
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/vanheimageofvidya
You can get one done in an afternoon, though the length of that afternoon will depend on player count and game settings.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 13, 2015, 12:01:23 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 13, 2015, 11:48:26 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 14, 2015, 04:43:45 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 14, 2015, 06:10:13 pm
Post by: JohnieRWilkins on July 15, 2015, 11:23:13 am
(http://i.imgur.com/dKFH6hC.png)
I wish developers played their own stupid games. They'd be able to answer some long-standing questions, such as "why do I have to pay for imaginary barding? What's the point all of the awful summons? Fire magic? Non-blood nations?" Some of these make a player feel like the game is still balanced around Dom3's gemgen economy and higher site frequency. I'd give you a list of all of the terrible summons in this game, but I'd generally just list all of the generics with the exceptions of worms that walk and blood summons.
Astral corruption is actually a very slight symptom of how strong blood magic is in long games. You can expect the best blood power to win any game that is drawn out past turn 60 on the back of horror artillery, storm demon attacks and vampire defenses. My multiplayer strategy has lately revolved around playing stealth-blood nations with very light blood access and/or a blood and death pretender for vampire lord cheese. This is partly due to the always-kill blood first meta in my Dom4 community and partly due to the awesomeness of the vampire lord defense against unsuspecting players.
I'm currently nearing turn 70 in a multiplayer game in which I'm the only blood power. I have an income of >250 slaves per turn and I can effectively summon more demons and vampires in a year than other nations have troops. This is generally what my opponents have come to expect to hit them ten times a turn:
(http://i.imgur.com/8P2KnYT.png)
This is supplemented by 4 horror mailers and arbitrarily many lesser horror casters to keep the riffraff in check. Can you imagine any way of fighting this off as a nation without access to blood magic? What about a very real scenario where one of these armies is made every 2 turns?
Bonus: Can you vampire count?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuToD507jPA
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 15, 2015, 03:05:16 pm
A. Research up to Blood 7
B. Pretender summons vampire lord
C. Vampire lord blood hunts and summons more vampire lords
D. Build a whole blood economy off of that
Not going anywhere with that, just wondering. Also, do you play on easy research?
Post by: E. Albright on July 15, 2015, 03:23:20 pm
I'd be inclined to wonder about settings, too, though. This strategy as described seems an awful lot like "All I have to do is have everything in my master plan fall into place without any opposition or setbacks, and I cannot fail!"
I really don't see the current summons situation as being reflective of *cringe* Dom3 endgames, either. Like, not even a little. YMMV, I suppose.
Post by: JohnieRWilkins on July 15, 2015, 03:53:36 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on July 15, 2015, 04:19:55 pm
Post by: RexMundi on July 16, 2015, 05:38:38 pm
Any suggestions to fix this, or alternatives? I don't much like the build in generator, and finding new maps on the fourms gets tedious.. am I sol?
Post by: pondicherry on July 18, 2015, 05:32:07 pm
For the first time, I read the victory message! I'm proud of MA-Arcos and our God!
I want to dedicate this victory to Blaze and Shadowlord (because... reasons.)
p.s. loved the victory message, so well written and so immersive.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 18, 2015, 06:31:37 pm
Post by: RexMundi on August 06, 2015, 11:01:57 pm
Guys.. a WW2 mod.. It's.. Just try it
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 06, 2015, 11:17:50 pm
I have a lot of aborted mods for Dominions that I barely started. I was working on a Pokemon mod for a bit. And writing python code to generate random spells.
Post by: RexMundi on August 06, 2015, 11:49:54 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 07, 2015, 12:15:03 am
One thing I will say is: modding Pokemon in is SUPER easy, as long as you're willing to go through the work of modding a lot of them. Go to bulbapedia, grab the best looking small sprite that looks like its facing to the side, or the large sprite if its a large Pokemon. If you think its medium sized take the small sprite and double its size, if its super large take the large sprite and double its size (do this by copying it into paint, because paint is so simple it lets you just double an image turning each pixel into four pixels if that makes sense). Then open the file in paint.net, size it to the smallest multiple of 32x32 that will fit, and save it as a .tga. Then, and this is the part I'm really proud of, open it again, move the sprite a few pixels forward, and save it with a 2 on the end. That's now its attack and casting sprite :P
Where I got lost was trying to add in evolutions, type matchups, complicated shit like that. It became clear early on that I would run out of separate mechanics for all of the different damage types, I only managed to do like half of the matchups. And of course even though an individual Pokemon can be modded in in like twenty minutes if you're in your stride, that's still a lot of Pokemon... If I had to do it again I would add in humans to have a baseline, and then give each pokemon the power level it would logically have (so caterpies are borderline helpless, Onix is an unstoppable killing machine). Evolutions could be done but type matchups were a bad idea. I'm not sure how I would handle spells and items; I had ideas in the original but they were ultra ambitious.
The random spell generator was much the same. I had a strong core system: each spell in Dominions can be reduced into form, effect, and modifiers. So form would be like touch spell, aoe ranged spell, ect. and then within that there were things like precision, ect. Effect is what it does, within that there are things like damage value, number of effects, that kind of thing. Modifiers is random things like can only be cast in a forest, only hurts magic creatures, ect. Each of these has an individual power number, which gets multiplied together somehow (not sure on what the formula would be) to produce an overall spell power. This gets randomly spent increasing fatigue (which is actually the determining factor for gem cost), research cost, and paths. Even wildly disparate spells like summoning or buff can fall under the form/effect/modifier system; for example summoning the form would be remote, permanent or combat summon, the effect would be what it summons or how many.
It just wasn't planned or commented well enough. There were too many steps, too much math, and a bunch of random modifiers where if X happened the spell would be more likely to go into this school or this path, if Y happened it would have Z added to its random name list, that kind of thing, and of course it was all in different places in the code which was commented poorly. But I believe it can be done.
In both cases it was fun to try but if I tried again I would start afresh with a more complete plan. Also, if anyone ever wants to do a total conversion mod I have a python script that makes every spell in the game except definable specific exceptions unsearchable. Sadly the standard events are effectively impossible to mod out.
Post by: Cruxador on August 07, 2015, 04:39:16 am
I've head that /v/anheim is a good place to get blitzes:That's a community steam group, and the community it's for isn't Bay12. Why would you go play where you're not wanted?
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/vanheimageofvidya
You can get one done in an afternoon, though the length of that afternoon will depend on player count and game settings.
Post by: TripJack on August 07, 2015, 09:23:40 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on August 07, 2015, 07:01:02 pm
I've head that /v/anheim is a good place to get blitzes:That's a community steam group, and the community it's for isn't Bay12. Why would you go play where you're not wanted?
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/vanheimageofvidya
You can get one done in an afternoon, though the length of that afternoon will depend on player count and game settings.
How come I wouldn't be wanted? Also it's not like I can link to a thriving Bay12 blitz community either. Dom4 games we have, blitzes not so much.
Post by: RexMundi on August 07, 2015, 07:18:39 pm
anyone who wants to play Dom 4 is wantedWhat kinda game?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 13, 2015, 02:43:56 pm
The only real problem with them is that you have to pay the extra startup costs to get going. 500 to 1000 gold in temples is a big hit in the early game (equivalent to having a small army wiped out), but on the plus side you want temples in your forts eventually anyway.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on August 13, 2015, 03:00:48 pm
That and they do have their benefits, being able to self bless for E4+ fatigue regeneration is always good.
Post by: Karlito on August 25, 2015, 12:24:49 pm
Quote
This update focuses on the underwater part of Dominions. A new underwater nation is available as well as a bunch of new underwater pretenders to choose from. Many of the old underwater nations have also got some new recruitment options. There has also been some work to make the AI better as well as more modding, more random events and the usual bug fixes.
Game
New nation: Therodos
UW resources increased 25%
Press 'r' when designing pretender to get a random design
Dominion less likely to spread across sea-land borders
Horror chances altered
Being dead will make horror marks fade away over time
New summon spells: Flame Jelly, Bishop Fish
Oceanian lore rewritten
Oceania turmoil in coastal provinces, order in land/sea provinces
Haliades replaces Bishop Fish as oceanian priests
Initiates of the Deep, deep seer: lore remake
Witness of the Deep, Soldier of the Deep
Capricorn and Siren coastal recruits and chaos rebate
New unique items for Marignon and R'lyeh
Improved magic item info
UW pretender rebates and nation restrictions
Dagon remade (grab and swallow instead of trample)
New story events
Save and exit also marks turn as unfinished
Pelagian/oceanian name lists
Replaced some iron with meteoritic iron
Starting position improvements
Mummy Nazca Arena fix
Chakram flysprite
Double flysprite bug removed
Academy underneath didn't produce lab
Rainbow enchantment now affected buy own luck effect
Bodyguard mrl bonus bug fixed
Philosopher icon
Fullscreen resolution defaults to desktop resolution instead of highest
Updated tip of the turn
Some new bronze and iron weapons and armors
Some more units got weapons and armors changed
Giants reanimated into correct shape
Berserk bless (war-dance)
Lanka description now mentions blood hunt bonus/malus in turmoil/order
Couldn't cast spells if you had two 'life long protection' items
Send Dream Horror castable at UW provinces
Assassins must be stealthy to be able to assassinate
The four Balams are now unique
EA/MA Pelagia nation descr changes
Pelagian Mystic
Iron armaments rust in the sea
Rust permanent until repaired
Damaged weapons/armors lower dmg/prot
New poptypes: Ichtyid shaman, Bone Tribe barbarians
New mermen/ichtyid sites
Mermage & Pelagian Mermage remake
Pelagian Explorer
Enkidu Headhunter & Bone Tribe Headhunter Club -> Skull Club
EA Pelagia Hero
Turtle Warriors Javelin -> Coral Tipped Javelin
New Pelagian coastal recruits
Mermage/priest sprite remade
New 'rusty armor' icons
UW indeps a bit weaker
Lower throne no longer appears UW
Divine Glyph and Baphomet magic beings
Can't compete in arena while sneaking
Ancient kraken doesn't lose Ink attack if equipped with weapons
Abomination doesn't lose tentacles if equipped with copper arm and weapons
Macaw and Condor got headslots
New switch: --listnations
Some new throne defenders can appear now
Some nations got pretender discounts
Many typo, stat and event fixes
Non-commander communion possible
Theurg Communicant -> not commander
Theurg Communicant rec-limit 1
Theurg Communicant cost 35 -> 50
Option --partamount didn't work properly
Battlefield spell didn't affect everyone in enormous armies
Particles effects didn't look properly in huge battles
Minor memory leak fixed
National underwater PD takes precedence for local UW PD
Faster battle deployment for huge skirmish armies
Murdering Winter less effective vs commanders
Murdering Winter cost 50 -> 40
Flames from the Sky cost 35 -> 30
Thetis Blessing research level 9 -> 7
Therodos got proper names
Music can now start with a rare tune
Sirens are cheaper to recruit when Lure of the Deep is up
Looming Hell slightly harder to defend against
Vengeful Water less effective and cost 50 -> 70
More ability modifiers printed
Shambler base cost 25 -> 20
Cannot try to send more than 32 messages
Friendly Currents didn't affect encumbrance properly
Soul Leech and Consume Soul cannot be repelled
New network option (--maxholdups) to run over serial stallers
New network option (--timeleft) to set nbr of hour to first host
Auto refresh for html statuspage
Auspex could be pathed though the sea, fixed
Looming Hell vs stealthy didn't work properly
Berytian Melqarts reduced blood sacrifice
Land/Water shape recruitment fix
AI
Certain nations more likely to go for good bless effects
Smarter pretender god design
Can make pretenders with high levels of blood magic now
Fixed bug where AI for blood and death nations could waste up to 80 DP
More likely to buy holy units when having a good bless
Army and PD strength evaluation improved
Higher score for scripted spells
Modding
#aigoodbless, #aimusthavemag
#aifirenation, #aiairnation, #aiwaternation, #aiearthnation
#aiastralnation, #aideathnation, #ainaturenation, #aibloodnation
Deserter abilities now work for non commanders too
New unit mod commands: #incscale, #decscale, #reform, #domrec, #haltheretic
New item mod commands: #incscale, #decscale, #reform, #haltheretic
New nation mod command: #noforeignrec
Eventmodding #req_notnation didn't work
#blessbers, #uwheat, #hpoverslow, #poisonskin, #xploss, #enchrebate50
Linux
no multi processes on low memory machines
Post by: Culise on August 25, 2015, 12:32:00 pm
*vanishes*
EDIT: Also, Telkhine kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telchines), for reference.
I'm having a bit of trouble trying to figure out what use for the Protogenos (crabhead guy) from a cursory glance over the stats. W3 is not something any of the underwater nations need, since Water doesn't need that much in the way of paths (boosting is easy and you only need 5 or 6 at the most), and there isn't a UW nation that doesn't have water paths. Can't leave water even with magical means due to basically a super-steroid Aquatic. The only thing I can think of is a UW SC for early expansion, but there are other, cheaper options for that. Mega-jelly has Astral, Innate Spellcaster, and Void Sanity (not that I'd risk it in R'lyeh's Gate, but there are other uses for such), not to mention giving cumulative fatigue chances to enemy units in a wide area, all for dirt cheap. Telkhine God-King is a smith par excellence. Father of Monsters gives Fire paths, which are really rare underwater, but not exactly crucial.
Post by: Karlito on August 25, 2015, 01:01:13 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/GRWxgpe.png)
His advantage as an expansion focused pretender seem to be that he can move more than one sea province at a time, though exactly how much you'd need that is up for debate. Also, he kind of sucks at fighting independents right out of the box.
Post by: hemperor on August 25, 2015, 01:17:47 pm
But giant floating head...
(http://i.imgur.com/GRWxgpe.png)
His advantage as an expansion focused pretender seem to be that he can move more than one sea province at a time, though exactly how much you'd need that is up for debate. Also, he kind of sucks at fighting independents right out of the box.
hahaha i want this game so bad!
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 25, 2015, 02:06:57 pm
But giant floating head...
(http://i.imgur.com/GRWxgpe.png)
(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100430205337/uncyclopedia/images/1/13/Monty_python_god_animation_talking_.png)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 25, 2015, 02:42:34 pm
Post by: E. Albright on August 25, 2015, 04:34:28 pm
This sorta feels like half a patch, albeit a large half. Either its scope got scaled back, or there's more to come. Time will tell.
Post by: Frumple on August 25, 2015, 04:35:37 pm
Also, did just notice they nerfed vengeful waters ;_;
New nation's kinda' neat. Freespawn ethereal sacreds. Reliance on the 1/4th D little guys for their base nation summons is a bit of a PitA, though (especially if you get unlucky... test game I'm playing now took like two years to get the first one >_<). And you really kinda' need/want a lot of the priest ones -- you get freespawn, but the numbers are kinda' shitty as near as I can tell and it takes the spirit calling to make up the difference.
E: Bright side to 'em, though, is once you've got your first one they can forge their own skull staff and spit out a handful of revenants to handle ephor summoning duty, if you've got a land province and the gems ready for it. Still, bit annoying to reach that point considering how integral the little buggers are.
Post by: E. Albright on August 25, 2015, 04:45:13 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 25, 2015, 04:57:01 pm
Their core troops are still aquatic.Augh, just make a reverse barrel of air and gift of water breathing, its not that hard! I mean its impossible for us but with access the source code it shouldn't be that hard. That still wouldn't be enough for water to be balanced, but it would be a huge leap.
This sorta feels like half a patch, albeit a large half. Either its scope got scaled back, or there's more to come. Time will tell.
Post by: Culise on August 25, 2015, 06:02:19 pm
Their core troops are still aquatic.Desura says this is the first part of the UW revamp. I definitely agree with you that it fits what the patch feels like. The revised Pelagia fluff is pretty blatantly setting hooks for an LA Merfolk Pelagia, for instance.
This sorta feels like half a patch, albeit a large half. Either its scope got scaled back, or there's more to come. Time will tell.
Also, H3s for everyone with water paths and a single UW province, for the low price of 20 water gems and research to Conj6. That's a pretty nice touch.
Post by: Cruxador on August 25, 2015, 06:22:25 pm
But giant floating head...Being able to go from one sea to another without crossing the intervening land is a good thing on some maps.
(http://i.imgur.com/GRWxgpe.png)
His advantage as an expansion focused pretender seem to be that he can move more than one sea province at a time, though exactly how much you'd need that is up for debate. Also, he kind of sucks at fighting independents right out of the box.
One thing people complained about on Desura is that there wasn't really a reason for most land nations to go underwater. So I guess this is (part of?) that.Their core troops are still aquatic.Desura says this is the first part of the UW revamp. I definitely agree with you that it fits what the patch feels like. The revised Pelagia fluff is pretty blatantly setting hooks for an LA Merfolk Pelagia, for instance.
This sorta feels like half a patch, albeit a large half. Either its scope got scaled back, or there's more to come. Time will tell.
Also, H3s for everyone with water paths and a single UW province, for the low price of 20 water gems and research to Conj6. That's a pretty nice touch.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 25, 2015, 10:28:18 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 26, 2015, 02:18:00 pm
Should be all the excitement of casting spells and fighting dudes without any of the hassle of the early game. PM me if you're interested!
Post by: BFEL on August 26, 2015, 03:20:43 pm
So I finished my "trampleismyfriend" game and started one of MA Ulm. Holy crap they kick a lot of ass. And I grabbed the greatest Magic Site I have ever seen to date: The Council of Sages.
Not only does it provide 1 of earth, air, astral, and...I think water gems, but it also allows recruiting of a mage unit with three 100 chance all paths open random levels. So yeah, I'm set for finding new sites I guess :P Oh, plus easy blood hunters. And they're great at research too... jesus these things are OP
Post by: Frumple on August 26, 2015, 05:35:48 pm
Yeah, they're in D4, too, looking at the mod inspector... probably about the same except for being StR. Those paths are pretty looking, but the critters are functionally... kinda' cruddy, honestly. Massively expensive for what's very likely to be a 1/1/1 caster (which isn't exactly useless, but a 2 or 3 in one path is often significantly more useful) that probably dies come winter, and has hella' upkeep until that point. Do have a lot of research, but not enough to be particularly sexy gold/RP wise on something that old, that expensive, and that not-sacred. Much rather have the plain sage that's about half the RP, but less than a third the cost, insofar as research goes.
... don't like using either unless I've got GoH running or easy access to age fixes, really. Definitely not OP, though. They're a desperation buy to get some path diversity more than anything, imo. Maybe desperation researchers if you absolutely don't have anything less expensive/more reliable. Trying to rely on them as casters, dedicated site searchers, or researchers will break your bank in half and annoy you to the buggery via attrition, too.
Post by: Majestic7 on August 27, 2015, 01:04:29 am
Post by: BFEL on August 27, 2015, 01:55:14 am
Post by: Frumple on August 27, 2015, 03:49:07 am
... 3k income means you've won the game, though, unless it's buggeryhell huge (and probably even then, really). If you've got that much, you should be able to just spread temples everywhere and domkill the map, assuming you don't drown everything in bodies. Though that is more effort to pull off in D3. D4's repeat recruitment makes chewing through gold en masse a lot easier, heh. But yeah, if you've got that much coming in you don't really need to worry about cost efficiency or effectiveness or... anything, really. Screw around with whatever, at that point the only way you're going to have consequences for your actions is if you're playing vs. a similarly sized human player :P
Post by: BFEL on August 27, 2015, 10:09:25 am
Playing against AIs, trying NOT to domkill the map this time around, cuz that is sorta boring. Granted I'm still throwing up temples like they're going out of style, but that's just to ensure a good buffer and because Vampire Queen.
I think I'm pretty much a lock to win, but ERMOR (Ma) pretty much owns the other half of the map, and thus the army screen shows me having maybe half their size. Granted, Ulm means quality that they severely lack, but I'm still hoping for a nice big fight to the finish :P
Oh, is The Ankh still a thing in Dom 4? It sounds awesome, but its description is pretty vague and I sorta remember it doing basically nothing in a previous game.
Any chance anyone knows its actual effects?
Post by: Culise on August 27, 2015, 11:18:49 am
Post by: BFEL on August 27, 2015, 01:18:35 pm
Post by: BFEL on August 30, 2015, 10:19:20 pm
So question: Did they nerf EA Atlantis in 4? I don't have it so I wouldn't know, but it seems like something they would do because HOLY HELL They are fucking OP in 3.
Half their units (i.e. the half you will use) are giants with huge stores of health, one of which is their sacreds, who have massive health AND massive protection, meaning a nature heavy pretender makes them practically invulnerable with regen. Not only that, but they have a level 3 priest unit with ENORMOUS health, making an excellent prophet/supercombatant, and they also have obscenely awesome (and healthy once again) mages in the Basalt Kings, who can get up to FIVE ranks in earth magic, four in water, or 3 in fire.
Oh, and one choice for their pretender is the Dagon, a unit that comes standard with trample, size 6, buttloads of health, and 17 protection. And then you can armor this monster.
I'm still in the early game and I'm already blown away with possibilities here.
Post by: Jacob/Lee on August 30, 2015, 11:50:49 pm
With the common fire/water/air magic and their limitations underwater, I would personally take my chances with the landlubbers over fighting some of the horrors in the oceans. All of the units you get are either fully amphibious or poor amphibians, so you at least don't lose anything by doing so. :P
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 31, 2015, 01:04:16 am
doublepost because BUMPBalance is completely different in Dom 4. For one their Basalt Kings can only be recruited in their capital and take 2 turns (which is standard for expensive mages now).
So question: Did they nerf EA Atlantis in 4?
In Dom 4, mages are harder to get and research is much slower (and thus also more expensive). Using mages to summon or boost other mages to cast big spells isn't how the early/mid game is played any more, so having a national mage that can cast a great spell at <6 research is important now. I'm not... really seeing one for them. The Basalt Kings have some good stuff but nothing that would nearly justify their cost. Unfortunately combat earth magic usually involves casting Summon Earthpower so being at high earth doesn't buy them much in combat, fire and water are honestly the two weakest paths in the game. He can get acid, magma, earthquake, but... with evocations you generally want a lot of cheap, expendable mages rather than a big dude with extraneous paths. The Mage of the Deep, well, his only guaranteed paths are W2, not exactly going to find a good spammable spell with that.
As I understand it they're still considered viable in multiplayer, mainly because they're a water faction that has shields, amphibious mages AND amphibious troops. But you'll be facing off against the insane blesses of the early era or people who put some thought into kitting out their armies to compete with the big boys. So just having decent armies isn't going to cut it.
I'd be interested in seeing if coral commanders can be thugged out. 80 gold, 25 heatlh, 13 defense skill, that's... weirdly practical. Shroud of the Battle Saint + Charcoal Shield + N9E4 bless? With a dwarven hammer that's 14 gems and 80 gold for something that should beat PD consistently.
Post by: BFEL on August 31, 2015, 06:16:21 am
Atlantis on the other hand has pretty awesome sacreds (Living Pillars, just shy of 30 health and 20 protection, making them good with nature blesses, and probably quite a few other blesses to boot. Oh, and they have magic weapons by default, so no worries against ethereal units.) it also has good mages, and its regular army is nothing to sneeze at, with Deep Shamblers that you can produce by the bucketload to take the first few provinces that will bring your resource production up enough to get the Living Pillars out at a reasonable rate.
Oh, and it has level 3 priests to divine bless them too, so no worries there either.
Basically its just good all around. There are probably better things, but it doesn't seem to have any real weaknesses, at least in 3.
And now I will be testing it out in 4, which just finished downloading :P
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on August 31, 2015, 07:29:02 am
Well I was mostly calling them OP based on comparison to things like MA Ulm, which in 3 had epic armies, but as a balance had NO sacreds whatsoever, and pretty terrible mages.
Atlantis on the other hand has pretty awesome sacreds (Living Pillars, just shy of 30 health and 20 protection, making them good with nature blesses, and probably quite a few other blesses to boot. Oh, and they have magic weapons by default, so no worries against ethereal units.) it also has good mages, and its regular army is nothing to sneeze at, with Deep Shamblers that you can produce by the bucketload to take the first few provinces that will bring your resource production up enough to get the Living Pillars out at a reasonable rate.
Oh, and it has level 3 priests to divine bless them too, so no worries there either.
Basically its just good all around. There are probably better things, but it doesn't seem to have any real weaknesses, at least in 3.
And now I will be testing it out in 4, which just finished downloading :P
I really, really would not compare anything to Dom 3 Ulm. They literally are the worst middle era race, and possibly in running for the worst faction ingame, saying something is OP compared to Ulm isn't exactly a strong mark and most Ulm's survived MP by being the Forge Faction for others to keep them off their back and pray they could get good independent mages.
Living Pillars had awful encumbrance , slow movement, and expensive resource costs from what I remember, not enough to be a worthwhile major blessing but an alright minor.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 31, 2015, 02:04:52 pm
Post by: BFEL on September 01, 2015, 10:14:34 am
All I have actually accomplished so far is discovering that Caelum and Kailasa are the only EA nations with ranged sacreds (and thus the only thing worth using the new air bless on)
Basically I'm being very spoiled for choice and my random flailing at the depths of this game isn't getting me anywhere yet :P
Post by: E. Albright on September 01, 2015, 11:21:31 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 01, 2015, 12:24:18 pm
All I have actually accomplished so far is discovering that Caelum and Kailasa are the only EA nations with ranged sacreds (and thus the only thing worth using the new air bless on)Maggggggge-priiiiiieesssssstttttsssss
Post by: BFEL on September 01, 2015, 12:27:09 pm
Good job
Post by: Mech#4 on September 01, 2015, 10:37:47 pm
So now that I have Dom 4 I'm having that silly issue where I can't seem to do anything because I want to try ALL THE THINGS, and thus end up doing a lot of nothing.
All I have actually accomplished so far is discovering that Caelum and Kailasa are the only EA nations with ranged sacreds (and thus the only thing worth using the new air bless on)
Basically I'm being very spoiled for choice and my random flailing at the depths of this game isn't getting me anywhere yet :P
It's what I've done while learning the game. It's the type where I think you need to push through a few games, lose horribly and learn from your mistakes a few times. Like learning Dwarf Fortress in a way.
Watching a few LP's helped as well. I at least understand enough now to wish that I could stop my archers from firing at enemies when my melee units are engaging them or chasing them down.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 01, 2015, 10:54:53 pm
Watching a few LP's helped as well. I at least understand enough now to wish that I could stop my archers from firing at enemies when my melee units are engaging them or chasing them down.That's the "Fire" command, instead of "fire and keep distance". They'll try not to shoot if there's friendlies in the way, and go into melee when they're out of ammo or options.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 02, 2015, 12:43:12 am
The only real defense I can think of for a frontliner against evocations in general is a major blood bless. But a blood bless runs counter to the general mantra of thugs (defense is key). Plus, blood bless usually wants health boost bless, and if you're at the point where you have B9N9/B9D9, a half-dozen sacreds and an indy priest is effectively a thug anyway...
Post by: Shadowlord on September 02, 2015, 01:49:22 am
Astral 9 gives MR+3 and twist fate. It also lets you cast wish, which is probably far more powerful. :P
Would blood vengeance even trigger if your thug were mind-controlled?
Post by: BFEL on September 02, 2015, 05:33:37 am
So now that I have Dom 4 I'm having that silly issue where I can't seem to do anything because I want to try ALL THE THINGS, and thus end up doing a lot of nothing.
All I have actually accomplished so far is discovering that Caelum and Kailasa are the only EA nations with ranged sacreds (and thus the only thing worth using the new air bless on)
Basically I'm being very spoiled for choice and my random flailing at the depths of this game isn't getting me anywhere yet :P
It's what I've done while learning the game. It's the type where I think you need to push through a few games, lose horribly and learn from your mistakes a few times. Like learning Dwarf Fortress in a way.
Watching a few LP's helped as well. I at least understand enough now to wish that I could stop my archers from firing at enemies when my melee units are engaging them or chasing them down.
Well I had Dom 3 long enough to have a general idea of what I'm doing, I'm less overwhelmed by the game itself as all the OOOO NEW STUFF that came with the new number :P
Also, just saw the "press ? to see list of commands" tip yesterday and holy hell that should be hardcoded as the first tip the game gives you. I can't believe I never thought to do that on my own, and now everything seems so damn SIMPLE.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 02, 2015, 03:08:58 pm
Would blood vengeance even trigger if your thug were mind-controlled?No, its a 1:1 damage thing. No red numbers appear, no red numbers bounce back. I do believe that Soul Slay, which technically does 999 damage instead of being an instant kill effect, should be able to bounce back the instant kill.
Not that it really matters, in a normal research MP game it would take most players so long to get out MC effects that I would probably have some counter or other strategy available.
Post by: BFEL on September 04, 2015, 08:31:28 am
Post by: Frumple on September 04, 2015, 08:54:20 am
Don't really have a favorite path. Going pure... anything... would be a total pain in the behind. Except maybe blood but running a blood economy is a total nuisance >_>
Definitely like some of the nature spells, though. GoH is golden. Kelpmaker is occasionally useful. Other stuff in there, too. Just don't really like its combat spells (barring I guess the buffs, but the good/easily usable ones are all high research and uggh), or most of its summons.
Post by: BFEL on September 04, 2015, 10:02:30 am
I think nature is a fairly ritual focused path, and rituals are what I tend to use. Granted I'm probably doing roughly all the things wrong, but hey, its what I know.
Plus I'm a total whore for health regen, so that affects the verdict there a bit :P
Oh, and just a quick aside: Am I the only one annoyed that the random maps are wraparound now? The way this game does it is just so terrible and ugly BLEGH
Post by: Knave on September 04, 2015, 10:15:02 am
Post by: ArKFallen on September 04, 2015, 12:59:13 pm
Oh, and just a quick aside: Am I the only one annoyed that the random maps are wraparound now? The way this game does it is just so terrible and ugly BLEGHGametools->RandomMapCreator
You can uncheck wraparound.
Post by: Antioch on September 04, 2015, 02:24:23 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 04, 2015, 02:32:27 pm
Post by: BFEL on September 04, 2015, 03:08:17 pm
I haven't played dominions 4 yet, is the interface any better than that of dominions 3?
It...takes a little while to get used to. Its VERY different, others think its better, but I'm not really sure yet. I do enjoy the "lines showing which provinces are linked" thing though.
Mostly I just think the new way they do the right click unit views is sorta uglier, that's my only tangible complaint about the interface.
*throws cookie at Ark*Oh, and just a quick aside: Am I the only one annoyed that the random maps are wraparound now? The way this game does it is just so terrible and ugly BLEGHGametools->RandomMapCreator
You can uncheck wraparound.
Thankyouhaveacookie!
edit: and the first thing I bloody do with this power is try and generate a map so fuckhueg that it literally ran out of memory :P
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 04, 2015, 05:38:30 pm
I'll give you the lack of combat spells, but that's kinda not the paths focus.Generally speaking if you're using magic in a way that is both practical and purposeful you're better than the average beginner.
I think nature is a fairly ritual focused path, and rituals are what I tend to use. Granted I'm probably doing roughly all the things wrong, but hey, its what I know.
If you're going for a ritual or construction focused playstyle you're still going to need some kind of combat magic. You're never going to win a multiplayer game without some form of competent combat magic, unless maybe you go hardcore into blood magic. One thing you could look into is, instead of bringing a dozen low path mages to every fight, bring a single competent mage who casts a key spell. Something like Flaming Arrows, Fog Warriors, Grip of Winter, Howl, that kind of thing. Its not particularly hard to build an army around Flaming Arrows or Grip of Winter and using magic this way will leave you plenty of mage turns for whatever else you're doing.
If you can't think of what to do with combat magic, find a faction with a low cost, low path mage with no randoms. And then find the perfect spell for them to spam. Its a nice exercise in how to get magic up quick. In my first beginner game I got so much mileage out of a single spell, Horde of Skeletons, just casting it three dozen times every fight. You only need variety if people can counter your first strategy :P
Also, if you like nature magic, consider this: whoever has the strongest nature magic/income in a game, will get to cast Mother Oak. Whoever casts Mother Oak, will have nature gems to recast Mother Oak, which means they'll constantly have a free 10 gems per turn every turn for the rest of the game. Gotta use diplo so people don't team up on you tho.
Post by: BFEL on September 04, 2015, 07:24:54 pm
Also, if you like nature magic, consider this: whoever has the strongest nature magic/income in a game, will get to cast Mother Oak. Whoever casts Mother Oak, will have nature gems to recast Mother Oak, which means they'll constantly have a free 10 gems per turn every turn for the rest of the game. Gotta use diplo so people don't team up on you tho.Well EVERY path has one of those, so its hardly competing. And frankly that is one of the low end income globals. Though the other globals in nature make up for its weak income one. In fact one could go so far as saying nature is THE global path. I mean GoH is just majorly good in every way, and then you can also throw in...I think its called Natures Bounty? But I suppose that IS on the last tier, so YMMV.
The only thing that really competes with the overall usefulness of nature globals are death ones, and in a MP game I imagine anything there other then Well of Misery (possibly the best income global) will result in a swift ganking. Plus those definitely aren't good for every faction, quite a few of them would be crippling yourself.
Though I suppose I must admit to inexperience there, I have no multiplayer games under my belt, so most players can probably just dismiss what I have to say :P
If you're going for a ritual or construction focused playstyle you're still going to need some kind of combat magic. You're never going to win a multiplayer game without some form of competent combat magic, unless maybe you go hardcore into blood magic. One thing you could look into is, instead of bringing a dozen low path mages to every fight, bring a single competent mage who casts a key spell. Something like Flaming Arrows, Fog Warriors, Grip of Winter, Howl, that kind of thing. Its not particularly hard to build an army around Flaming Arrows or Grip of Winter and using magic this way will leave you plenty of mage turns for whatever else you're doing.Admittedly this is the exact opposite of my problem with combat magic. Specifically all I really USE is the "one competent mage casting key spell" and don't really have the know how of when/how to use mage swarms. Actually I have issues GENERATING loads of mages for anything other then research monkeys, so that's probably a significant portion of that.
Its weird how I REALLY know what I'm doing in some stuff but totally lack understanding of some things other players think of as extremely basic.
Though I suppose some of that is attributable to "Dominions is roughly 12 times as deep as the Marianas Trench" and that I just haven't played enough of it to really work out a coherent tied together strategy.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 04, 2015, 08:04:11 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 04, 2015, 10:22:01 pm
The way that research works is that each level in a school costs twice as much as all the levels before it combined. So, 50>100>200 etc. research points. Mother Oak being castable on level 5 alteration means that A practically speaking its the earliest sane global to come out every game and B the fact that you get it earlier means it generates more gems. Its "worse" than the other gem gens but its still the most *important* gem gen because of its accessibility compared to the others.Also, if you like nature magic, consider this: whoever has the strongest nature magic/income in a game, will get to cast Mother Oak. Whoever casts Mother Oak, will have nature gems to recast Mother Oak, which means they'll constantly have a free 10 gems per turn every turn for the rest of the game. Gotta use diplo so people don't team up on you tho.Well EVERY path has one of those, so its hardly competing. And frankly that is one of the low end income globals.
Admittedly this is the exact opposite of my problem with combat magic. Specifically all I really USE is the "one competent mage casting key spell" and don't really have the know how of when/how to use mage swarms. Actually I have issues GENERATING loads of mages for anything other then research monkeys, so that's probably a significant portion of that.The truth of the matter is... it hurts your economy to put out mage swarms for combat. But its such a good strategy, at least early on, that you need to do it anyway. You really only want to have one or two mage swarms out a time for your first war. For the first, I dunno, three years, you ideally be recruiting a mage at every fort every turn, and get 2-3 forts up quickly to facilitate that. From there, think of your mage force as something akin to a medieval levy. Their primary value is economic, AKA sitesearching and research, you only send them out to war if they'll save you money by taking territory or preventing territory loss. You want to minimize the number of mage-turns spent at war, while having as many mages as possible in the important fights. So seek out fights with your mage swarms, don't pay them to passively patrol your territory or something. You also want troops that don't overlap with your mages. So if you're using evocations, you want the cheapest possible wall of units between the enemy and your mages that won't route. If you're using buffs, you need melee units that can do damage in melee, or all you're doing is delaying the inevitable. If you're using summons, a huge wall of infantry will actually prevent your 100% expendable combat summons from reaching the front while your troops you paid gold or gems for die in their place. Ect. Ect.
The other trick to mage swarms is you want to find a spell that scales 1:1 the more you cast it. Fireballs scale 1:1, one fireball does one fireball worth of damage, two fireballs does 2x as much damage. So do battle summons, almost, unless you fill up your front rank at which point their usefullness drops. But buff spells and debuff spells don't scale, because they can only be cast once per unit. Six guys casting barkskin is not six times as good as one guy casting barkskin, if you get my drift. You also just want to find a spell that's sort of overpowered for its path cost; easiest way to do that is quick SP experiments or internet word of mouth.
Post by: E. Albright on September 05, 2015, 04:12:43 am
I do enjoy the "lines showing which provinces are linked" thing though.
Do you mean the Neighbors map filter? That was around in Dom3 too, it just was off by default, whereas now it's on by default...
Post by: BFEL on September 05, 2015, 10:51:49 am
Speaking of Thrones, what are you guys personal favorites? The Moon one is quickly rushing to the top of my list.
Oh, and is anyone planning on doing any MP anytime soon? I would be interested in
Post by: ArKFallen on September 05, 2015, 11:30:57 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 05, 2015, 11:55:29 am
Oh, and is anyone planning on doing any MP anytime soon? I would be interested ingetting horribly wreckedplaying a game
Well. On the one hand, I'd not mind, as the only game I'm in now is pretty low-commitment. On the other hand, past experience suggests that I shouldn't be left alone with new players. On the third hand, I'd really like to do another NationGen game since the last fizzled out faster than expected. On the fourth hand, past experience suggests that NG shouldn't be left alone with new players. On the fifth hand, the next NG game I'd like to do would be along the lines of the "hash your forum name and play whatever garbage results" that Karlito suggested, and by eliminating the metagame of nation selection, NG becomes a lot more friendly to newer players. On the sixth hand, however, random nations are still unfriendly to new players. So I think finally on the seventh hand, I must conclude that while I personally might be up to starting a game up, I'd not really want to play one that would be accessible to newer players, and I'd suggest you just set up a thread and try to get your own rolling.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 05, 2015, 01:13:54 pm
Post by: BFEL on September 05, 2015, 05:51:23 pm
TBH I recently read that thread and I'm loving the idea of NationGen stuff. While I'm new to multiplayer and have issues with a lot of the aspects of the game, I don't think I'm quite in the category that you're worried about (though I'm probably totally wrong XD) but even if I am I don't really expect to WIN my first MP game.Oh, and is anyone planning on doing any MP anytime soon? I would be interested ingetting horribly wreckedplaying a game
Well. On the one hand, I'd not mind, as the only game I'm in now is pretty low-commitment. On the other hand, past experience suggests that I shouldn't be left alone with new players. On the third hand, I'd really like to do another NationGen game since the last fizzled out faster than expected. On the fourth hand, past experience suggests that NG shouldn't be left alone with new players. On the fifth hand, the next NG game I'd like to do would be along the lines of the "hash your forum name and play whatever garbage results" that Karlito suggested, and by eliminating the metagame of nation selection, NG becomes a lot more friendly to newer players. On the sixth hand, however, random nations are still unfriendly to new players. So I think finally on the seventh hand, I must conclude that while I personally might be up to starting a game up, I'd not really want to play one that would be accessible to newer players, and I'd suggest you just set up a thread and try to get your own rolling.
If you're really worried about that could try the suggested "newbie disciples" thing from that thread.
Honestly my main concern about MP stuff is the simple fact that connections and ect. are fucking hard as balls to figure out, and I don't really know where to even start to go about hosting (or playing for that matter)
Post by: Shadowlord on September 05, 2015, 05:52:55 pm
Post by: BFEL on September 05, 2015, 05:55:27 pm
Huh?
Basically in my experience computer multiplayer is weird and requires 3rd party websites and all sorts of silly bollocks. Would be awesome if Dom4 subverted that, but I don't really know if it does or not, I have no idea how to get started.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 05, 2015, 05:59:40 pm
Post by: BFEL on September 05, 2015, 06:15:01 pm
Anyway, I just imagined what the gamename for Albrights nationgen thing would be "NationgenUserHash" and now the "Samurai Pizza Cats" song is stuck in my head.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 06, 2015, 11:28:10 pm
God, what a weird nation. You have no money, but the very first time I hit the end turn button I got a forge bonus healer hero with a grand total of like 15 paths. Who was basically a titan. WTH. And of course your only way of getting your freespawns is to summon a priest that your nation has neither the paths nor the gems to practically summon in any large numbers. Because why not.
The actual nation I generated was a lot more typical. Fire and earth, with just enough blood to be questionable if its worth investing in. Upper level mages have sailing. Almost all units were female, and crazy aggressive loadouts all around; a 9 gold "archer" with a crossbow and a short sword, a double falchion wielder, hoburg deer calvalry. No one has any shields, there's barely any armor. Sacreds suck but they're recruit anywhere.
I did find a strategy for them. They have an 80 gold mage with 11 research. Dormant Great Sage with money scales and 3 magic, that puts them up to 14 research, or 15 if they're in the capital with the Great Sage. And I bought a bunch of different paths on him so he has 62 research. For every expansion party but the first I just mass cheap crossbows and spam away. As a result, everything is incredibly cheap and I build a bunch of forts and spam even more crossbows and 80 gold researchers. First rush is to fire arrows of course, then construction 2 for dwarven hammers, and then from there whatever I want. Blood, evocations, a fire/earth global, more construction, whatever. When the Great Sage awoke a few months late I had 237 research per turn and 3 forts.
In a faction that is thematically dominated by women, the most useful troop is the male crossbowmen. Nationgen continues to produce nations that look like they might be vanilla :P Now I kind of wish I could play a MP game with these guys, but I guess if the game is hosted I'll get equally attached to whatever my name hashes out to *hint hint*.
Post by: Frumple on September 06, 2015, 11:55:15 pm
And of course your only way of getting your freespawns is to summon a priest that your nation has neither the paths nor the gems to practically summon in any large numbers. Because why not.You actually have the paths -- the d random smith guys can natively forge skulls staves, which gives them (well, anything with any death paths at all) access. Later, you can just pass off staves to revenants or whatev' and call up as many spirit callin' critters as you have resources for. The gems are more of an issue, heh. Takes a bit of research, but it's not terribly difficult to have enough by the time you actually roll a d-random smith, if the RNG's being recalcitrant.
They do have some passive freespawn, though. It just doesn't seem to be terribly prolific, and needs the standard ermor/lemuria temple (+ fort) setup. Kinda' wonder if there's something odd going on there regarding scales, honestly. The amount seems really low compared to ermor or lemuria, especially considering the critters aren't much (/any) better than lemuria's. Even asphodel seems to have better freespawn generation, which is probably the closest equivalent to the new guys.
For what it's worth (not much, considering the killer domain chewing on your income) you actually have recruitable standard infantry type critters, it's just that they only come out of land castles. Also a really interesting resource granting caster. It's neat because it's obviously intended to be paired with another land-recruit caster, since the resource generator causes unrest and its companion reduces it. The companion ones would probably make hella' good blood hunters (or at least something to set down in a blood hunting province) if you can stomach the cost for settin' the things up...
Post by: E. Albright on September 07, 2015, 01:46:00 am
The amount seems really low compared to ermor or lemuria, especially considering the critters aren't much (/any) better than lemuria's.
Well, I mean, you do get the berserk-on-bless spectral sacreds, which is certainly better than anything Lemuria gets except possibly the very-rare apparitions, plus you get the slightly-questionable spectral archers, and you also get the (painfully rare) freespawn philosophers... but yes, this is quibbling, not refuting.
---
There should probably be a new release of NG in the next couple of weeks - I'd hoped to see one out by this week, but the amount of work adapting to 4.20+ as well as distraction relating to adding superfluous content has delayed that. The main thing that I'd say stands between me and being willing to do a release is finishing clan themes for Caelam, grr...
Spoiler: Two recent test nations (click to show/hide)
These generated one after the next; I can only assume the "u vs. e" schism is at the root of their violent separation, but I suppose non-believers will never understand the deepest mysteries of a given faith. A keen eye will detect colossi towering over the common southern hoburgs comprising the rank and file of each nation...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 07, 2015, 02:16:09 am
Oh I'm aware of all that. But that strategy you just outlined involves a .04% random, researching 6 and 4 in two different schools, all to START your strategy. I did specify "practical". On the other hand, your pretender needs to do a lot, I'm not sure single-handedly sitesearching death and and slowly summoning ghost-mages is the way to go either...And of course your only way of getting your freespawns is to summon a priest that your nation has neither the paths nor the gems to practically summon in any large numbers. Because why not.You actually have the paths -- the d random smith guys can natively forge skulls staves, which gives them (well, anything with any death paths at all) access. Later, you can just pass off staves to revenants or whatev' and call up as many spirit callin' critters as you have resources for. The gems are more of an issue, heh. Takes a bit of research, but it's not terribly difficult to have enough by the time you actually roll a d-random smith, if the RNG's being recalcitrant.
They have so many odd features, I'm sure a coherent strategy will be about separating the traps from the gems. The way I look at it, things you want out of your pretender:
Luck scales, to get your two ridiculous heroes that are essentially pretender gods unto themselves.
An awake SC to deal with your questionable early recruitment abilities. And outrun the domkill effect to keep your income going longer.
A dormant or awake amphibious SC to break into land and start building a fort before all the provinces get taken (ideally awake, usually by the end of year one the board is pretty crowded).
At least one death path, so you can site search and occasionally head back to the lab to cast your no-research summon spell.
A bless that benefits your living sacreds, particularly on land where they excel.
A bless benefiting your undead sacreds, probably the higher priority in the long term.
That's... an awful lot, especially with the still weak options offered by UW pretenders. Probably some of those priorities will have to be ignored.
Post by: Frumple on September 07, 2015, 08:36:20 am
The research is pretty troublesome, yeah, though you only need cons 4 to start staff forging. For what it's worth, your starting army can do some pretty good work -- the spectrals tear up most UW PD, from what I've seen, with about the only holdout being amber provinces -- and keep things rolling until you've got what you need to jumpstart that part of your army layout.
... though actually checking things, now I'm wondering why I thought you needed skull staves or D2. The base freespawn summoner summon is only D1, and once you have the one D1 smith, you can have it summon revenants (which is only ench 3) to summon more ephors, if you actually have the surplus of gems to bring in more spectre callers. Otherwise it's just setting the smith to summon more ephors. So all you need is a (slightly more than) 25% random to start off your undead production. Everything else is gravy. Which innit too bad, really. Conceivably it starts at turn two or three, if your pretender has no D and you alchemize everything into death. And luck out on your first daktyl being one of the 1/4th D randoms.
So, double checking things, I'd probably argue you don't need an awake SC* pretender for early game expansion (though you likely still want one, because while taking one/turn is nice, taking two/turn is better), so long as your start army avoids priest provinces (and maybe if it doesn't, if you send along a prophet), you don't need the SC to summon ephors -- daktyls manage that just fine, if the RNG isn't being a complete jackass -- you don't need your pretender to do sitesearching (daktyls, again, should manage, and are your best native sitesearchers anyway). The bless is a definite thing, but you're dealing with a domkill nation so you'll probably tank your scales (except magic and luck, the latter of which you'll probably end up relying on for income) anyway, so you've got what you need, there.
*Which... looking at it, your cheapest chassis can probably manage that easily enough, if you're okay with a water/astral bless (actually pretty decent for your ethereal sacreds!). W9S9 awake floating brain, 7 dominion, 2 Turmoil 3 Sloth 3 Cold 3 Death 3 Luck 2 Magic? Cash income will be shite, but that's what the ephors are for.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 07, 2015, 01:45:43 pm
what I'm saying is, ea therodos really wants the d
Post by: Frumple on September 07, 2015, 02:11:08 pm
... would still probably say you've got good odds of holding out for it until then with your starting army and passive freespawn summoning, though, if you don't want d on the pretender. Their hoplites are actually kinda' brutal, in practice, and the sacreds aren't exactly bad.
Almost certainly wouldn't go heavy d unless you were after the death rituals, though. If the freespawn's all you're after, you only need the one or two.
E: Though... I did just notice the ephors don't actually get access to your standard undead holy spells. Nevermind, I take back any and everything good I've said about therodos. Base 12 MR on your ethereal chaff isn't going to save your arse from mass banish or whatev'.
Post by: Besserwisser on September 09, 2015, 11:17:13 am
These generated one after the next; I can only assume the "u vs. e" schism is at the root of their violent separation, but I suppose non-believers will never understand the deepest mysteries of a given faith. A keen eye will detect colossi towering over the common southern hoburgs comprising the rank and file of each nation...Burg is German for castle, while Berg is German for mountain. For what it's worth, I would expect them having the opposite names from what I see. Kongburg looks very tribal and wild while Kongberg looks very civilized. Should be the other way around.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 09, 2015, 02:26:44 pm
They all serve some kind of purpose; the infantry each have a role. One has a banner, there's a tower shield normal and a tower shield sacred, there's a net infantry, and the giant Agarthan lets them go underwater. The archer has a composite bow, and the cavalry both get many attacks.
Speaking of calvalry that get a million attacks, this is one of their two sacreds:
Spoiler: just look at it (click to show/hide)
One thing I will say about nationgen is I'm tired of seeing every single mage except for the occasional low-level one having one or two 100% randoms and then one of a few configurations of lower % randoms. Its not consistent with vanilla and it takes away some of the variety the mod offers.
Post by: BFEL on September 09, 2015, 05:22:45 pm
So any nation without a tier 3 has no damn business listing its priests as "strong"
Post by: Frumple on September 09, 2015, 06:05:13 pm
So, uh. It's almost always because they have H3 priests, ha.
No clue why oceania is labeled as a powerful priest nation, though. Their priest is actually pretty iffy, decent casting paths aside. Rest of 'em is pretty consistent in what's causing it (access to at least an H3 capital commander -- several also have summons or, in the case of Abysia, H3 recruit-anywhere).
Post by: BFEL on September 09, 2015, 07:14:49 pm
Also, just got the most amazing nationgen result I've seen so far. Abysian (with a hoburg bowman and power armor unit tainting that :P) with reanimating priests, Fire and death primaries, air and blood as secondaries. It's capital has a ghost generating site operable by a death mage, its sacreds are Burning Ones in plate armor with Fire Power AND Storm Power (as well as storm immunity if you feel like buffing them with flight) and every mage above the first crap tier one has 20 points of Invulnerability.
Oh, and the sacreds also have 20 morale and 18 MR, just in case. They cost 70 gold and take a bunch of resources, but abysian so that's to be expected.
And all their abysian units have 50 darkvision. Nearly forgot that.
Honestly I'm almost afraid to see what abominations they have for heroes :P
EDIT: just now noticed the two weaker invincimages are recruit anywhere. So holy fuck.
Post by: Frumple on September 09, 2015, 07:22:13 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 09, 2015, 07:46:35 pm
No clue why oceania is labeled as a powerful priest nation, though. Their priest is actually pretty iffy, decent casting paths aside. Rest of 'em is pretty consistent in what's causing it (access to at least an H3 capital commander -- several also have summons or, in the case of Abysia, H3 recruit-anywhere).
One halfway wonders if it's not from the Bishop Fish. In Dom3. When Pelagia and Oceania were reversed, and didn't get their descriptions switched until sometime after Dom4's release.
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 03:43:34 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 13, 2015, 05:08:06 pm
The inspector doesn't show how they're linked, either.
Post by: BFEL on September 13, 2015, 06:55:32 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 13, 2015, 07:38:05 pm
(Or just summon Queens of Elemental Water, since two out of three of them have uwregen.)
Post by: BFEL on September 14, 2015, 12:59:20 am
(Or just summon Queens of Elemental Water, since two out of three of them have uwregen.)These are what I was thinking of actually. Since they have ONE HUNDRED PERCENT uwregen.
Basically if it works with amulet of the fish then I'm thinking of empowering one up to S9 and having it wish for power until its hit points are firmly in the "impossible to fully deplete in one turn" area, then giving it a slave collar and calling it The Immovable Object.
All this is assuming it works in the first place.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 14, 2015, 01:01:26 am
Post by: BFEL on September 14, 2015, 01:09:48 am
The sad thing is that would still be pretty easy to kill... I mean at that level of research.With 1000 or more health that replenishes completely every turn? Unless something changed from Dom3 then wishing for power gives you BUCKETLOADS of HP
The only things I can think of are instakills like Claws of Kokytos or enslave spells, but the enslaves can be countered by making it a prophet and...well I'm not sure how to counter the other one since I would be using a slave collar to keep it from being retarded and routing from a battle it can't lose :P
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 14, 2015, 01:33:25 am
Plus the moment she attacks she dies, no questions asked. Autoroute for the win :P
(sorry, killing SCs is like the one thing I'm really good at in this game and I took that as a challenge)
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 14, 2015, 01:44:09 am
Post by: BFEL on September 14, 2015, 02:08:16 am
Plus the moment she attacks she dies, no questions asked. Autoroute for the win :PWHUT
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 14, 2015, 08:12:54 am
So what EnigmaticHat is getting at, I believe, is that it wouldn't be too difficult for someone to lockdown your Elemental Queen so that she can't run away and thus would die at the end of the battle.
Horror marks can work as long as they're applied heavily. I've played multiple pretenders that had horror marks, no issues. Small number of them just won't trigger fast enough in an MP game to matter too much.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 08:22:37 am
Basically, when 50% of the total HPs of an army has been killed, the army routs (I think there are morale checks each turn). So if somebody kills your 1000 HP Queen, then your army will most likely routs.
Post by: Frumple on September 14, 2015, 08:36:48 am
... that said, if you've reached the point in the game that you're actually using multiple wishes to get one of the elemental royalty up to 1k+ health, I, uh. Think you have larger strategic decision making problems to worry about than how to build a freakishly overpriced and inefficient SC :V
Like how to stop yourself from doing that. Don't do that. It's silly.
Unless it being silly is the point, I guess. Or you're playing a high site, possibly modded game that is drowning you in so many gems you literally can't spend them all, and so freakishly wasteful things for marginal gains is the name of the game.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 14, 2015, 10:18:40 am
So if slave collars prevent retreat, which is what BFEL is implying (I'm not actually sure that they do that, I think they might just give a morale bonus) all you would need to beat the SC is like 200 undead, or a couple death mages with reinvigoration casting Horde of Skeletons.
If slave collars don't prevent retreat, its a little harder to kill her if she attacks. All you'd have to do is take the province she came from and any nearby ones, slash her up till she retreats, and then she dies from having nowhere to retreat to.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 10:33:04 am
Berserkers don't rout, but slave collars only give 50 morale, so they still auto-rout.
If you can't fatigue the SC with infinite skeletons, you may try to paralyze it long enough for them not be able to rout in time :)
Hum , I was tryign to find a definite answer on the forums, but apparently can't : nobody agrees about the 30 and 50 :/
Post by: Shadowlord on September 14, 2015, 10:52:22 am
Or cast Infernal Prison on it. Seems like that would be easier than any other strategy anyone has suggested thus far.
P.S. My understanding is that anyone with 50 morale never routs.
Post by: E. Albright on September 14, 2015, 02:32:03 pm
Attackers rout after 50 turns, defenders after 75, and everybody dies at 100.
Berserkers don't rout, but slave collars only give 50 morale, so they still auto-rout.
Hum , I was tryign to find a definite answer on the forums, but apparently can't : nobody agrees about the 30 and 50 :/
*slave collars only give 30 morale. 50 morale is Mindless, and Mindless doesn't rout. 30 morale always passes morale checks, but is still subject to autorout since that doesn't require a check. Also, Queens start with 30 morale, so slave collars aren't "good" for anything but bestowing the wonderous gift of Feeblemind upon them. If you're doing that, you might as well give them a Lycanthropos Amulet instead, as it'll take Bathusma from 90% UW Regen to 90% UW + 10% Limited in addition to Berserking her. Or since we're already positing Wishing, just Wish for the Sun Sword.
(This all ignores the part where this is only marginally useful anyway since UW Regen only works, well, UW...)
(Well, that, and the part that Frumple mentioned about you sinking ~4000 pearls into one unit before equipment...)
(Oh, and since she's wishing, you need to throw in an extra 1000 pearls to make it so she can't be magic dueled to death by a handful of S1s...)
Post by: BFEL on September 14, 2015, 11:48:20 pm
Just thought it was an interesting idea for a SC, which are an interesting thought experiment if not a viable strategy.
Post by: Shadowgandor on September 15, 2015, 12:54:37 am
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 07:54:18 am
... in other news, does anyone know exactly what "very low income" means for a province? Is it just a measure of starting population, or what?
Post by: Shadowlord on September 15, 2015, 09:30:48 am
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 09:33:49 am
Post by: Shadowlord on September 15, 2015, 09:55:37 am
Spoiler: quote from the manual (click to show/hide)
MA C'Tis's miasma dominion can also adjust it up or down (depending on who it is affecting), but that probably shows up in dominion scale modifiers, I expect.
(The scales that reduce it are turmoil, sloth, heat, cold, and death)
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 10:35:45 am
... would also mean that farmlands are wasted on capital provinces, which is interesting. And that forest/mountains are perhaps the only ones that matter in terms of raw numbers (though just regarding resources)?
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 10:41:54 am
By the way, I think there is an encumbrance penalty for everyone touching the ground and without Swamp survival during battles in swamps.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 15, 2015, 10:50:40 am
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 11:14:19 am
I think the "Road" improvement from the castles negates the "hindered movement" ;)Assuming it comes with the road improvement :V
Which, if it doesn't, you apparently can't get. Whee~
And nah, the darkness advantage is actually pretty sizable so long as your opponents don't have a workaround to it. Though caves do get a reduced benefit. It's still a -3 penalty to attack, defense, and precision, though, which is often quite notable.
Post by: E. Albright on September 15, 2015, 11:26:39 am
... would also mean that farmlands are wasted on capital provinces, which is interesting. And that forest/mountains are perhaps the only ones that matter in terms of raw numbers (though just regarding resources)?
Farmland isn't "wasted", it's detrimental. Lower resources. But yes, swamp, waste, and mountain all hinder movement in and out and can't be helped via roads.
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 11:30:44 am
Post by: etgfrog on September 24, 2015, 06:58:07 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 24, 2015, 11:25:55 pm
To actually answer the question I think you meant to ask, though, NationGen as it is release will generate neither of those sorts of nations, and further there's no plans in the foresable future to add them baring some serious changes to available modding commands.
Post by: BFEL on September 24, 2015, 11:49:28 pm
I'd also point out that in caves, if you have darkvision or blind-fighter units, you have a bit of a tactical advantage in battles there. (Probably not a very large one, though)Speaking of caves, do they count as surface in relation to certain Globals? Perpetual Storm is the one I'm thinking of specifically.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 25, 2015, 01:23:31 am
Freespawn would require changing the sourcecode. Well, you might be able to jury-rig it via data files and filters, but it'd be an awful mess. Popkill OTOH would be trivial to add via straightforward changes to the nation filter files.
To actually answer the question I think you meant to ask, though, NationGen as it is release will generate neither of those sorts of nations, and further there's no plans in the foresable future to add them baring some serious changes to available modding commands.
It took about 2 hours of fiddling, but I'm about to blow your mind. Copy Sanguine Circle, then copy-paste this into it:
Code: [Select]
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 1
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#rarity 0
#kill 1
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 1
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#1unit 2700
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 2
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#kill 1
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 2
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#1unit 2700
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 3
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#kill 1
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 3
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#1unit 2700
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 4
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#1unit 2700
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 4
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#kill 1
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 5
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#1unit 512
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 5
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#kill 1
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 6
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#kill 1
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 6
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#1unit 512
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 7
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#kill 1
#delay 0
#end
#newevent
#req_fornation 100
#req_fullowner
#req_dominion 7
#notext
#nolog
#nation -2
#1unit 512
#endThen play a game as Hobnia.Then read this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: E. Albright on September 25, 2015, 12:20:21 pm
Having said that, NG is a collaborative project, so if anyone is good with Java, likes their code pastaesque (gotta be honest about that :-\ ) and wants to pitch in...
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 26, 2015, 03:58:49 am
The main gimmick of the nation that I'd like to use, is unrestricted communion. That is, every single one of the nation's mages is a communion master, and every mage and commander (basically the same thing) knows a simple intrinsic spell they can cast to enter communion as a slave. This would be all kinds of broken if the nation had regular mages, so I thought of making the nation's mages highly specialized and weak individually - I.e. there would be three types of "mages", and each would have a 100% chance of one level in one of two paths (Nature/Earth, Water/Air, Fire/Astral), plus something like a 10% chance of an additional path level. Outside of heroes, pretenders, and summoned/independent mages, there would be no multi-path mages in the nation.
How would that work for balance, as a pro/con?
Also, I was thinking about the idea of giving the nation specific sacred/special units if specific pretenders are chosen. I.e. if you choose a particular pretender, an event spawns an additional site at your capital allowing you to recruit additional types of units. As a side effect, you wouldn't get that special site unless your pretender was actually in your capital, so this would incentivise having an Awake pretender to get the useful special units early. Would this be possible, and how expensive do you think such a feature would that have to be, point cost-wise?
(Other notes: the nation in question would have no "feet", and does not have arms as such but does have one "grasp" that can use weapons and be justifiably called an "arm", even if it's not. Does that constitute a significant drawback in terms of potential equipment, and would adding a third Misc slot to all of the nation's units be an acceptable compensation if it is?)
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 26, 2015, 05:25:15 am
Outside of heroes, pretenders, and summoned/independent mages, there would be no multi-path mages in the nation.I think this would cause your nation to be very difficult to balance.
If it was a EA nation, I would try to rush any nation that could have independent mages; and whatever the age is, rush thrones to get more mages.
The non-nationnal mages would bring too much potential to the nation for it to be easily balanced.
If you still go that way, I would suggest trying to make the Drain scale beneficiary to them (drain-immune mages, and maybe events that give them something, such as boosting the pretender-sites), so that non-nationnal mages are nerfed at least a bit ;)
Also, in the Desura forums, Pymous posted a nation which can't recruit independents (didn't try, but read that), so you may want to try and see if you can prevent commander-recruiting, if you wish so ;)
PS: missing feet means no "earth boots", and if their grasp let them only have 1 "arm" that prevents them from using the skull Staff and the Elemental Staves, preventing them from boosting their magic. This could help you make the nation focus on communion (because the way to get a 2 in a magic isn't to forge, but to bring more mages )
Post by: Neonivek on September 26, 2015, 06:07:38 am
Quote
I think this would cause your nation to be very difficult to balance.
The main issue is actually construction.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 26, 2015, 06:48:34 am
Construction and rituals, really. They'd have no easy access to multi-path mages, unless they luck in on an indie site or one of their mages sprouts a second path (10% chance of that), or get a throne. And even then the indie mages wouldn't get the full benefit from their national quirk, they'd still need to enter communion manually. And they have no way to easily get an E1S1 mage to craft crystal matrices, either.QuoteI think this would cause your nation to be very difficult to balance.
The main issue is actually construction.
It would, I think, be a nation highly dependent on having an awake pretender, just so that there is a high-level caster and crafter that can boost the low-level mages to something worthwhile reliably.
Post by: Frumple on September 26, 2015, 08:33:33 am
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 26, 2015, 08:56:44 am
I think there are ways to make boosters that don't act as boosters in combat (with negative in-combat boosters). It may be over-complex for nothing, but it could help somehow ;)
Post by: Neonivek on September 26, 2015, 09:03:10 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 26, 2015, 09:13:21 am
I mean I guess it could work if that nation gets a really great unique rainbow pretender....have you guessed what the nation is? D:
Because they will. It will have a point in all magic paths, be flying and stealthy, and will cause unrest and slowly drive your troops insane. It will cost so many points that the only viable option of having it in play will be to start with it imprisoned. It will also be one of the few unique pretenders that won't share the nation's ability to automatically commune (not that it needs it). Not sure if it'll be available in all three ages. Might skip MA, or be replaced with a statue version.
That does remind me. Is there any way at all to have a pretender with random magic paths?
Post by: Neonivek on September 26, 2015, 09:26:34 am
I always wanted a hypothetical Pantocreator civ who was based off of having just one super duper pretender and basically nothing else.
Post by: E. Albright on September 26, 2015, 10:49:04 am
Also, I was thinking about the idea of giving the nation specific sacred/special units if specific pretenders are chosen. I.e. if you choose a particular pretender, an event spawns an additional site at your capital allowing you to recruit additional types of units.
Major issue: only starting sites are nation-restricted, so if your capital falls, your sacreds won't show themselves to be particularly, ah, faithful.
Oh, by the way, can you mod in items restricted to your race ?
Yes.
Spoiler: Item restrictions (click to show/hide)
That does remind me. Is there any way at all to have a pretender with random magic paths?
Sorta. This is as close as you'll get to just random paths:
Quote from: Changelog 2015-05-09 11:04:23 +0200
Press 'r' when designing pretender to get a random design
Post by: Frumple on September 26, 2015, 10:59:49 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 26, 2015, 11:53:48 am
Can't the units themselves also be made nation-restricted? Or does the site availability override it?Also, I was thinking about the idea of giving the nation specific sacred/special units if specific pretenders are chosen. I.e. if you choose a particular pretender, an event spawns an additional site at your capital allowing you to recruit additional types of units.
Major issue: only starting sites are nation-restricted, so if your capital falls, your sacreds won't show themselves to be particularly, ah, faithful.
And won't #homemon take care of that anyways, seeing as you'd be the "original owner" of the site regardless? Can't events spawn sites that have a particular "original owner"?
Post by: ArKFallen on September 26, 2015, 01:47:37 pm
And won't #homemon take care of that anyways, seeing as you'd be the "original owner" of the site regardless? Can't events spawn sites that have a particular "original owner"?If the province is your capital you are the original owner and that is it. You can event create more sites in your cap with the #homex stuff and have it work. Is how I figured this out in 4.14
Post by: E. Albright on September 26, 2015, 02:42:14 pm
You can go the "site with associated freespawn for certain nations" route, but that's not really the same...
Post by: ArKFallen on September 26, 2015, 03:17:59 pm
Yes, but if you have an event create the site, it'll be a "generic" site as far as the game is concerned, and every nation will be able to use it.It doesn't have the checks you are thinking of. The only thing a site with #homex checks is if it is in the original capital of the nation owning it.
Use the following in a mini mod to see. The site will be in every province but you will only be able to recruit Anointed of Rhuax in your original capital.
Code: [Select]
#newsite 1760
#name "The Frozen Tower"
#path 2
#rarity 5
#gems 2 3
#gems 1 2
#homecom 1536
#end
#newevent
#rarity 0
#msg "Appearo!."
#nologs
#req_indepok 0
#req_pop0ok
#req_nositenbr 1760
#addsite 1760
#endEven if you take another capital without game end it will still only be your own original capital.
Post by: Shadowgandor on September 26, 2015, 04:44:24 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 26, 2015, 04:56:16 pm
...
That does not sound like a fun mechanic for anyone involved.
I guess what you could do is have it constantly create dangerous Indy monsters that kill off pop. So you have a larger population, but you have to be constantly defending it. Would make thematic sense too in a way; it causes large population growth but it also causes the growth of creatures that you don't want.
Post by: E. Albright on September 26, 2015, 05:07:42 pm
Even if you take another capital without game end it will still only be your own original capital.
Huh. That... behaves kinda strangely, but works. All right, so long as it's only in the capital this should work...
Post by: BFEL on September 26, 2015, 10:23:12 pm
I guess what you could do is have it constantly create dangerous Indy monsters that kill off pop. So you have a larger population, but you have to be constantly defending it. Would make thematic sense too in a way; it causes large population growth but it also causes the growth of creatures that youdon'twant to mind control into service.
Yeah, sounds pretty good :P
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 29, 2015, 10:43:52 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 29, 2015, 10:58:28 am
or
#restricteditem <value> + #userestricteditem on every eligible unit
plus
#masterrit <value> and/or #mastersmith <value>
That's all-or-nothing, mind you; specific paths can't be targeted.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 03, 2015, 01:32:57 am
That's... really cool actually. Of dubious actual worth, but still. Cool detail. Reason to recruit from that one province chokepoint with your most powerful neighbor I guess. If it happens to warrant a fort or have useful indys.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 04, 2015, 10:18:17 am
Are ninja shurikens supposed to never hit, or this is because of lizard priests being too dodgy?
It is possible to banish someone into kokytos or hell, but is it possible to send someone to the void?
Does MA ctis dominion actually give diseases to all creatures with no swamp survival?
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on October 04, 2015, 10:49:22 am
They can hit, just bad aiming I suppose
No
Cold Blooded or Swamp survival negates the effects, but yes, and creatures that naturally resist disease (undead)
Post by: BFEL on October 04, 2015, 11:07:05 am
How do Harvester of sorrows/ bane venom charm/ void spectre work?
Stealth them into an enemy province and wait
Post by: E. Albright on October 04, 2015, 11:23:24 am
Cold Blooded or Swamp survival negates the effects, but yes, and creatures that naturally resist disease (undead)
Friendly sacreds/disciples/pretenders are also immune.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on October 04, 2015, 11:35:00 am
Though I haven't tested disciples so I'm unsure there, that's good at least (Though still a bad idea if only the pretender is immune. :P)
Post by: Frumple on October 04, 2015, 11:44:23 am
There are a handful of generic sacred summons that aren't cold blooded/undead/lifeless/have swamp survival, though, I do believe. C'tis would have access to those just fine.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 04, 2015, 12:55:02 pm
It both kills population and has a chance of giving diseases to some of the units and commanders in the province. The more people in the province, the more people die. If your target has Gift of Health up, that'll cure the diseases almost immediately if the army is in their own dominion.
You actually can send someone to the void, but you need to make the unique artifact the "dimensional rod" to do it. It's almost certainly not worth it because it drives the wielder insane (and horror marks them), and it can't be un-equipped.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 04, 2015, 02:40:30 pm
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 04, 2015, 03:11:02 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 04, 2015, 04:12:42 pm
It sounds really weird, but it looks like, that only good working way of asassination for asassins is asassin summoning something better then himself to do the job.
Do poisons stay after the battle ends?
Any way to remotely horror mark someone without combat?
Is there anything capable of absorbing people for hp increasing like eater of dead?
Will turning on second sun negate effects of turning off first sun?
There is horrific angel from hell, it has 25 nonmagical damage resistance( something like chance not to get damage at all thing), it is also ethereal because of some special robes to be even more pitchforkresistant, it has pendant of luck and flying shield and the shield in each hand to finish pitchforkproof kit. How peasants with pitchforks still kill him?
Do effects of two same items stack? For example two scutata volturna for double disintegrate per turn(+ lightening bolt shooting helmet c:) or double bane venom charms on harvester of sorrows
Post by: Frumple on October 04, 2015, 04:44:01 pm
Is there any chance for person lost in space and time to return?Yes.
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It sounds really weird, but it looks like, that only good working way of asassination for asassins is asassin summoning something better then himself to do the job.No, but it's definitely the cheapest. Thugging out assassins or getting your hands (usually via shenanigans) on better-than-human ones are also pretty much perfectly workable, it's just that a simple skelliespam+acorn (or whatever) combo is probably going to do better than it 90% of the time. Doesn't mean the non-summoning option isn't good, just that the summoning method is faintly ridiculous :P
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Do poisons stay after the battle ends?No.
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Any way to remotely horror mark someone without combat?Blood magic has a few ways. Mostly by sending horrors (which mostly can horror mark with some of their attacks) to remote attack. Which still sorta' involve combat, but you don't actually have to have your mages there for it.
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Is there anything capable of absorbing people for hp increasing like eater of dead?Some pretenders can do the same thing.
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There is horrific angel from hell, it has 25 nonmagical damage resistance( something like chance not to get damage at all thing), it is also ethereal because of some special robes to be even more pitchforkresistant, it has pendant of luck and flying shield and the shield in each hand to finish pitchforkproof kit. How peasants with pitchforks still kill him?Fatigue + RNG, probably. Defensive methods are half-way to irrelevant if the critter isn't fatigue neutral -- eventually the fatigue will add up and the critter will die. SCs that aren't fatigue neutral pretty much have to rely on heavy offensive (probably on top of fear, or some equivalent effect) and just enough defense to survive, instead of heavy defense. Especially because you had two shields, the thing was likely just not doing any damage, got tired, and basically keeled over dead.
Also invulnerability is kinda' junky, from everything I've seen. Terribly unreliable, possibly even moreso than plain protection. Don't rely on it or expect anything from it, heh.
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Do effects of two same items stack? For example two scutata volturna for double disintegrate per turn(+ lightening bolt shooting helmet c:) or double bane venom charms on harvester of sorrowsGenerally they don't. Weapons are about the only exception, iirc. Not sure how stacked up shields work with regards to stuff like auto spell -- you'd definitely get the defensive bonuses, but not sure about the spells. Can test, quicklike...
E: Yeah, both shields would cast shocking grasp. You, uh. You would never want to actually do that, since you'd be pretty much guaranteed to get more benefit from one of the AoE one-handers or a different shield (gleaming gold, charcoal, vine, eye, whatever) instead of stacking them up, but... you could.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 04, 2015, 04:56:52 pm
But not always in the same province they departed from, and they may have to fight things before coming back. It's basically a 95% goodbye against SC, and 99% goodbye against others.Is there any chance for person lost in space and time to return?Yes.
And about poison, they still act during the 10 extra rounds after a battle is won.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 04, 2015, 05:05:41 pm
Really OP SCs can survive everything in the void and eventually come back, but it can be years later, and they'll probably be insane, so... You might as well write them off anyways.
Post by: E. Albright on October 04, 2015, 05:51:38 pm
There are a handful of generic sacred summons that aren't cold blooded/undead/lifeless/have swamp survival, though, I do believe. C'tis would have access to those just fine.
It also works nicely for indy sacred (e.g., amazons) and priests, as well as certain indy mages like witches.
Blood magic has a few ways. Mostly by sending horrors (which mostly can horror mark with some of their attacks) to remote attack. Which still sorta' involve combat, but you don't actually have to have your mages there for it.
I think the only "purely remote" non-combat option is Horror Seed at Blood 9, and that's really random and takes a while to work.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 05, 2015, 08:47:23 am
Sending mound king with leper rod or stuff like that can work as way to get rid of enemy commanders?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 05, 2015, 10:56:01 am
Post by: ArKFallen on October 06, 2015, 03:54:10 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 06, 2015, 08:20:04 am
This guy turned out to be arrow proof, demon proof and shrugs of any nasty magic ;-;7
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 03:51:03 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 06, 2015, 03:53:57 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 06, 2015, 03:54:30 pm
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 03:57:00 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 06, 2015, 03:58:37 pm
... not sure if they'd still tank the fatigue or not, though.
Unless the slave effect just flat doesn't work on non-casters, which may have been what EA was intimating.
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 04:04:16 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 06, 2015, 04:06:22 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 06, 2015, 04:10:28 pm
What do you mean they can't do anything? The idea was to have physically powerful commanders act as slaves in the communion to obtain the buffs that the wizards mostly just sit around wasting (Strength of Gaia for example)I see you read the Dom 3 guide on communions :P Its been nerfed so you can't do all that fanciness anymore.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 07, 2015, 06:31:48 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 07, 2015, 07:58:42 am
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 11:15:00 am
Actually I just came up with that idea off the top of my head. Also: FUCK.What do you mean they can't do anything? The idea was to have physically powerful commanders act as slaves in the communion to obtain the buffs that the wizards mostly just sit around wasting (Strength of Gaia for example)I see you read the Dom 3 guide on communions :P Its been nerfed so you can't do all that fanciness anymore.
Wait a minute...SLAVES can't do anything in the communion...so what if I gave the Thug a MASTER Crystal instead?
Idea still workable, if less awesome then originally intended.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 07, 2015, 11:28:14 am
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 11:30:41 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 07, 2015, 11:31:37 am
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 12:54:59 pm
The buffs go down the communion ladder only. Never up or laterally.GARGLEBARGLEACK
WHAT THE FUCK ARE COMMUNIONS USEFUL FOR THEN? JESUS FUCK.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 07, 2015, 12:59:54 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 07, 2015, 01:00:07 pm
Post by: Culise on October 07, 2015, 01:07:49 pm
EDIT: As above, much more succinctly. Shouldn't have gone off after the communion formula. ^_^
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 01:51:50 pm
Dominions, to me is a game where things SHOULD be more then they were intended, and nerfing "reverse-communions" seems like a step in the wrong direction in my eyes.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 07, 2015, 02:54:58 pm
Why ancient presense looses health buffs gained from eating people?
Any way for getting all the creatures with certain flag to show up in dommodmanager?
Are slingers useful at all? Hostiles seem not to take any damage.
Does abomination ever get used in multiplayer?
Do towers of different national forts have variety in killing power?
Why ai makes perfect thug build, and then adds to it firebolas as weapon?
How to nuke horrors?
How does targeting of mages work?
Does wither bones work on eater of dead?
Does ark artifact blind your troops too?
Post by: E. Albright on October 07, 2015, 03:54:45 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 07, 2015, 05:17:42 pm
Eh, yeah I mean I KNOW what its SUPPOSED to be used for, but It just disappoints me that because people found an interesting secondary application of the system the devs cried "exploit" and nerfed it into JUST being what its SUPPOSED to be.Nah, its BS.
Dominions, to me is a game where things SHOULD be more then they were intended, and nerfing "reverse-communions" seems like a step in the wrong direction in my eyes.
For one its, not fun for the guy who has to give orders. Its places way, way too much importance on the commanders' unique ID, which determines who goes first.
Also, a running theme of Dom4 is making the national options of each nation more important. What's the one thing Dominions does better than any other game? Variety. Fuck Star Craft's three nations with separate game mechanics, we have almost a 100! And all it cost us was tight game balance and graphics :P
In Dom3, nation variety was there but it was heavily de-emphasized because in the lategame almost everything would be summoned, and it was far easier to get lategame resources together for a number of reasons (which is why if you read guides and LPs of Dom3 as a Dom4 player they all sound really, really good at the game). Why is this relevant to reverse communions? Because reverse communions make your national paths less important. Any mage can be given any buff! Any mage can thug out or do ridiculous combat schenanigans! Whereas in Dom4 buffs and thugability are national features.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 08, 2015, 12:44:15 pm
Also eater of dead is hillarious for fighting underwater nations.
How wailing ladies perform?
Is ghost king spawn rate as awful as vampire queen one?
What are other pretenders with spawning stuff?
What undieing bless effect does?
Is there a way to retrieve lost unique artifact? ( mage got killed by knight of the chalice)
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 08, 2015, 12:50:13 pm
Undying +X gives you X extra hitpoints that you can go below 0, but you're going to die after a battle unless you regenerate back to positive numbers one way or another.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 08, 2015, 12:54:01 pm
I take it you were playing against AIs, and they took low dominion pretenders and then didn't bother to build temples.
2. 10/10 would hire as opera singer.
3. I'd answer, but my ghost king pretender hasn't appeared yet (and I can already cast curse of blood to make vampire lords).
4. Mother of Monsters
5. Basically you can go into negative HP, but any living unit that does will die at the end of combat if they don't regenerate back into positive HP first. It's not really extra hitpoints because if it were, you would regenerate more HP.
6. Wish? (Or what Il Palazzo said. I've never lost one, afair. :V)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 08, 2015, 12:56:16 pm
Tried vampire queen with high dominion for vampire spawn strategy, but there are no vampires spawne and everyone on the map just gets domkilled (i cant call 2 guys in 3 years good spawn) how does it even work? ( i had 10 dominion rather early in the game)Pretenders that dom-spawn troops do it by summoning troops only in a province they're in, not everywhere in their dominion.
If you want infinite ghosts or zombies you need to play as one of the undead "dom-kill" nations, like MA Ermor. They'll spawn troops everywhere in their dominion but at the cost of killing off vast amounts of population.
If you want to use a vampire spawn strategy, you'll have to cast the B3D3 vampire summoning spell, then get enough blood slaves together to spam vampires everywhere, and then use those guys to summon a horde of lesser vampires. Its a strategy that takes a very long time to set up, but there's nothing strictly wrong with it once you've got all the setup complete.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 09, 2015, 03:24:33 am
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 09, 2015, 03:49:01 am
Post by: Shadowlord on October 09, 2015, 06:38:42 am
The rest of the keys can be found in the quick reference guide (http://www.illwinter.com/dom4/dom4_quickref.pdf). :)
Post by: BFEL on October 09, 2015, 07:30:44 am
Right now my only real answer to the massive swarms of instalose is "throw more commanders at it" and that seems counterproductive.
Is there an item that prevents being targeted maybe? Because right now it's looking like Seeking Arrow is a universal "win button"
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 09, 2015, 08:09:33 am
So are there ANY good counters to Seeking Arrow?1.Forge and equip missile protection equipment. It's cheap.
2.cast Perpetual Storm global - the violent winds interfere with seeking arrows, IIRC.
3.I don't remember how the arrows work exactly, but if they do make an armour check, just equip heavier armour on your commanders. Missile protection items would be cheaper, though.
4.remote-kill the mages you're suspecting of casting the arrows.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 09, 2015, 08:12:47 am
My opponent has a whopping 65 PD on the province I've been targetting, and catches every scout I send instantly - and for some reason scrying on it doesn't show the result.
Post by: E. Albright on October 09, 2015, 10:39:28 am
Right now my only real answer to the massive swarms of instalose is "throw more commanders at it" and that seems counterproductive.
Actually, it's not. A pile of chaff commanders is very expensive, but if you don't have any other option it makes flattening your commanders with arrows a lot more expensive for them, too (especially if they take more than one hit to kill) and also less reliable.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 09, 2015, 10:48:37 am
Right now my only real answer to the massive swarms of instalose is "throw more commanders at it" and that seems counterproductive.
Actually, it's not. A pile of chaff commanders is very expensive, but if you don't have any other option it makes flattening your commanders with arrows a lot more expensive for them, too (especially if they take more than one hit to kill) and also less reliable.
Additionally, commanders cost gold, while seeking arrow costs gems. 50 gold for 4 gems? I'd take that deal!
Plus, the time that your enemy spends casting Seeking Arrow is time spent not forging, researching, site searching, or anything else that will improve their nation.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 09, 2015, 12:19:53 pm
Speaking of seeking arrows, I'm firing a bunch of them at someone right now, but can't see how well they're working.
My opponent has a whopping 65 PD on the province I've been targetting, and catches every scout I send instantly - and for some reason scrying on it doesn't show the result.
That almost certainly means that they have nothing but PD there. PD automatically patrols, and doesn't always show up on scouting reports. Unfortunately, seeking arrows does jack shit against PD.
Instead of scrying, just sneak+attack with a scout. That'll tell you what you need to know.
If you can, scry or scout every province that could reinforce it with mapmove 2. If there's something there, arrow it. If there's nothing there, you just need to get a force together that can beat a near limitless number of PD on the first try. Shouldn't be TOO hard in the grand scheme of things.
Alternate plan: ignore the province. 65 PD is a huge waste of money. Even if it means they can't be attacked, they effectively did the same damage to themselves that wiping out an army or two would do.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 09, 2015, 02:55:25 pm
Since it's a fort, though, the sneak+attack won't show me anything different.
I could still take out the PD, of course.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 09, 2015, 04:14:29 pm
Death / fire weapons bless spreads on bows?
I had magic resistant eater of dead with 405 hp regen per turn + flying shield+ ark + it is prophet, and now this thing turned on the way to my capital after genociding lizards. WHAT TO DO? Any attempt to stop it ends up with making several hundreds hp stronger.
Post by: BFEL on October 09, 2015, 04:20:46 pm
Is there any way to get accuracy without eye of accuracy? cant waste misc slot, as my pretender certainly needs 3 bows of war or six fire bolas.Aim spell?
Death / fire weapons bless spreads on bows?
I had magic resistant eater of dead with 405 hp regen per turn + flying shield+ ark + it is prophet, and now this thing turned on the way to my capital after genociding lizards. WHAT TO DO? Any attempt to stop it ends up with making several hundreds hp stronger.
Yes, and its hilariously awesome
Seeking Arrow spam? :P
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 09, 2015, 04:22:12 pm
How high is the MR on that eater? Even mid 20's can be instakilled with a little persistence.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 09, 2015, 04:26:06 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 09, 2015, 04:39:08 pm
It's a fort and they're blood hunting there. I can see the population dropping and they don't have death scales (and they're Abysia and throwing demons at me and such). They also have some demons also on patrol there, to keep their blood-hunting unrest down - they show up when they catch my scouts.Ah... remote kill the province population then? If you can get it below 650 the PD will start going away. If you can get it below 5000 the province will be mostly useless for blood hunting. Maybe... hurricane would do that? I'm not entirely sure what hurricane does. Failing that, enough remote unrest could have a similar effect.
Since it's a fort, though, the sneak+attack won't show me anything different.
I could still take out the PD, of course.
Weird about the scrying. Maybe they have an army size reducer or something. Or enough demons relative to blood hunters that the blood hunters don't warrant mentioning in the army summary.
I would be careful attacking that PD stack. If you don't kill it, you're back to square one. And they might anticipate and defend. Going around would really be ideal.
Is there any way to get accuracy without eye of accuracy? cant waste misc slot, as my pretender certainly needs 3 bows of war or six fire bolas.That is HILARIOUS by the way. Like something that would happen to the bad guys in a fantasy novel (which let's be honest, is who we play as in Dominions).
Death / fire weapons bless spreads on bows?
I had magic resistant eater of dead with 405 hp regen per turn + flying shield+ ark + it is prophet, and now this thing turned on the way to my capital after genociding lizards. WHAT TO DO? Any attempt to stop it ends up with making several hundreds hp stronger.
Anyway, just spam undead at it until it autoroutes and take the province behind it so it dies from having nowhere to retreat to. You'll need a LOT of undead unfortunately because of trample, but if you could create that monster a bunch of longdeads should be downright pedestrian by comparison.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 09, 2015, 04:40:58 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 09, 2015, 05:25:47 pm
Anyway, just spam undead at it until it autoroutes and take the province behind it so it dies from having nowhere to retreat to. You'll need a LOT of undead unfortunately because of trample, but if you could create that monster a bunch of longdeads should be downright pedestrian by comparison.
If you want to do it more directly, just bring a couple of decent undead summoners and a communion with 6-8 (or more!) Soul Slay or Disintegrate casters. If it's taking 6-8 MR checks per round, it will fail one eventually. As long as its MR is below 30 or so, anyway, though even then you could get lucky.
Post by: BFEL on October 09, 2015, 06:38:54 pm
That is HILARIOUS by the way. Like something that would happen to the bad guys in a fantasy novel (which let's be honest, is who we play as in Dominions).And this is why I love playing Dominions. All those damn RPGs and such where "magic" means "fireballs and lightning bolts" and maybe if the devs were feeling fancy "invisibility/flight/teleporting/any utility spell that is infinitely more useful then fireballs"
Meanwhile the BAD GUYS in those same games (and oftentimes miscellaneous NPCs in such games) get to do the really world changing shit and all you can think of is "boy, sure wish *I* could do interesting shit like that"
And then here comes Dominions and you get to blot out the sun and raise armies of undead and such.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 10, 2015, 03:23:28 pm
banished thing to kokytos, it returned, banished it to hell, it returned, bit sending it to the void worked out( pantokrator knew how to solve problems)
One tartrarian decided to build mausoleum, what will it give?
Is there a way to cure tartarians?
The guy with void rod sometimes starts searching for rlyeh/ waiting for stars to come in right position, wow, dominions 4 4 best fluff in vydia ever.
Post by: BFEL on October 10, 2015, 04:40:18 pm
Desintegrate/ soul slay/ ethereal crossbow were doing just 13 damage, then some guy1. LOL
banished thing to kokytos, it returned, banished it to hell, it returned, bit sending it to the void worked out( pantokrator knew how to solve problems)
One tartrarian decided to build mausoleum, what will it give?
Is there a way to cure tartarians?
The guy with void rod sometimes starts searching for rlyeh/ waiting for stars to come in right position, wow, dominions 4 4 best fluff in vydia ever.
2. Sounds like a story event, so probably something awesome.
3. I seem to remember you could in Dom 3 with Gift of Mind or whatever that's called, but don't know it that still works or I could be misremembering.
4. Pretty much yeah, that's what happens with insane units.
Post by: Boksi on October 10, 2015, 06:21:50 pm
Desintegrate/ soul slay/ ethereal crossbow were doing just 13 damage, then some guyTartarians building mausoleums is just something they do. It doesn't do anything but waste their turns.
banished thing to kokytos, it returned, banished it to hell, it returned, bit sending it to the void worked out( pantokrator knew how to solve problems)
One tartrarian decided to build mausoleum, what will it give?
Is there a way to cure tartarians?
The guy with void rod sometimes starts searching for rlyeh/ waiting for stars to come in right position, wow, dominions 4 4 best fluff in vydia ever.
You can heal their afflictions, but not their insanity.
Post by: Frumple on October 11, 2015, 10:07:08 pm
Faintly hilarious the machaka entry died in both its rounds, but still managed to kill all comers :V
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 12, 2015, 10:51:39 am
Post by: Shadowlord on October 12, 2015, 11:04:44 am
Edit:
My assumption was that it would block non-flying units from getting into a fort even after they broke down the gate (if they even could break it down).
I had cast it on the fort that my pretender was in, along with a dome, just in case.
I was also going to cast it on a throne fort that was under siege (by Caelum, to try to keep out their mammoths), but I didn't need to, since I was able to claim (and hold) all the thrones I needed to win on the very same turn that the sieging force broke down the gate.
Post by: E. Albright on October 12, 2015, 12:27:43 pm
Has anyone ever used Vafur Flames? What does it do? I can't find any info on it, and would like to avoid the hassle of testing.
It doesn't seem bad. It creates a wall of flames right in front of the castle walls during storming attempts and any hostile unit that touches it gets something between ~15-ish fire damage (in testing I will say that 30-40 was a very common total damage score, moreso than I'd expect simply from DRNs). Fliers fly over it, and fire-immune units ignore it, but it'd be really nasty against walking undead hordes, and it's doing enough damage that Fire Fend would only take the edge off. I'd also note that because of the size and placement, it would be really effective if you tie up the attackers in the gate, because their entire front row would be caught in the flames and taking damage repeatedly.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 12, 2015, 02:02:38 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 12, 2015, 02:31:09 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 15, 2015, 08:05:54 pm
Post by: ArKFallen on October 15, 2015, 08:26:29 pm
... someone remind me, can anyone see astral windows you open up, or is it just you? I vaguely remember it looking like a magic site from your side of things, but can't recall if the visibility of the thingjigger is limited to the caster or not.
I am a dumbshit. Probably right (that only the caster sees it) but for all the wrong reasons.
Post by: Frumple on October 15, 2015, 08:31:28 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on October 15, 2015, 08:57:16 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 17, 2015, 12:29:16 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 17, 2015, 01:06:27 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on October 17, 2015, 01:15:43 pm
If I want a bless, I look for someone who already has points in the paths I want to use. The more points in them, and the higher their initial dominion, the better, since that reduces how much it costs you to increase them further. The Great Mother and Lord of the Forest are good for N9Ex, for example. I still take those imprisoned for the free points.
There are at least two more ways to go:
1. Awake pretenders, such as dragons or titans, which people use to speed up their initial expansion. The problem with shapeshifters is that they drop their items if they shapeshift into a form that lacks slots for those items, so... I would go with a titan or the like, preferably. Plus then you won't kill all your own troops with your dragon breath.
2. Double or triple blesses for your sacreds. If you're min-maxing, you would try to find the most efficient chassis for buying the paths you need to get to 9, and you'll probably need to take negative scales to get there especially if you're trying to get a triple bless (it's possible, but you usually have to take a lot of negative scales, and imprisoned). My understanding is that you deal with the negative scales by rushing your neighbors who have good scales and just not expanding your dominion that much.
Post by: BFEL on October 17, 2015, 05:59:57 pm
... anything except dragons.I've actually had really nice results with a dragon recently. So long as you make them attack the back to prevent friendly fire that breath attack wins against practically everything.
Post by: Frumple on October 17, 2015, 06:08:01 pm
Really, if there's one beef I have with D4 it's that they somehow made god-dragons uninteresting. I don't even know how you manage that. Though having four or five palette-swap varieties is definitely how you start that process.
E: Y'know what this game needs? Mercenary performance tracking. Bands should really adjust their prices by how other bands manage under your command, with major markups if you end up with a lot of them wiping out on your pay, and gradual discounts as ones survive (especially if they survive with few losses). Playing one game and I'm half confused why any mercenary bands are still letting me bid -- I've killed off like five or six of the things so far, and of them, only one has lived to the point their contract lapsed (and I later re-hired them and got them killed, too). You'd think rumor mill would have kicked in by that point.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 18, 2015, 05:09:32 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 18, 2015, 05:45:24 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on October 18, 2015, 07:34:19 pm
Still don't know why, unless it's a bug. He doesn't think he could regenerate, and since he was playing MA Abysia (and not using a nature bless either)...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 18, 2015, 11:03:18 pm
Otherwise... its possible that against Seeking Arrows you still get a roll for your (generally 0) protection? Evidence would suggest that this is not the case but if it is that would mean that seeking arrows could quite plausibly deal 0 damage to anything.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 19, 2015, 11:50:19 am
Oh, don't get me wrong, they're perfectly functional pretenders. They're just boring as all hell. Thoroughly uninteresting SC form (with limited slots and all of a breath weapon (more or less shared with like six other pretenders) to spice it up), morph form that's just another pretender chassis except worse. They'll get the job done, better than a lot of other pretenders, even, but gods save me from actually have to use one of the painfully vanilla things.
Really, if there's one beef I have with D4 it's that they somehow made god-dragons uninteresting. I don't even know how you manage that. Though having four or five palette-swap varieties is definitely how you start that process.
E: Y'know what this game needs? Mercenary performance tracking. Bands should really adjust their prices by how other bands manage under your command, with major markups if you end up with a lot of them wiping out on your pay, and gradual discounts as ones survive (especially if they survive with few losses). Playing one game and I'm half confused why any mercenary bands are still letting me bid -- I've killed off like five or six of the things so far, and of them, only one has lived to the point their contract lapsed (and I later re-hired them and got them killed, too). You'd think rumor mill would have kicked in by that point.
Ehm, but that is kinda all dragons usually do in fantasy, fairy tails, myths and stuff, they breathe some shit on everyone, fly and bite some guys. Also guard some treasure sometimes. What do you expect them to do to be not boring?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 19, 2015, 12:27:19 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 20, 2015, 10:24:39 am
What is the special effect of blood bless?
Post by: E. Albright on October 20, 2015, 11:04:24 am
Fire: 2 fire resist/lvl, 5 Magic leadership/lvl, 5 normal leadership/lvl, -5% max age/lvl
Earth: 1 prot/lvl, 5 Magic leadership/lvl
Air: 2 shock resist/lvl, 5 Magic leadership/lvl
Astral: 10 Magic leadership/lvl
Nature: 2 poison resist/lvl, 5 Magic leadership/lvl, +50% max age/lvl, 10 supply/lvl
Death: 30 Undead leadership/lvl, less susceptible to old age afflictions, +1 Fear/lvl (min 5 to apply)
Blood: 5 Magic leadership/lvl, 5 Undead leadership/lvl, much better at blood hunting
Blood bless is +1 Str/2 lvls for the minor, and Blood Vengence (0) for the major, with the latter meaning that units directly damaging the blessed unit will have to take a normal MR check and if they fail will take base AN damage equal-ish to the damage they inflicted on the sacred.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 20, 2015, 02:48:15 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 20, 2015, 02:55:41 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 20, 2015, 03:27:22 pm
- Citizens of Ermor, now, when world is covered with darkness and horrors of underworld ravage the land of living. Our legions can return Ermor to its former glory
* messenger runs in
Messenger- Caesar, I have bad news
- Our dark magic is dispelled?
- No, everything is worse
- Mighty legions decided to roleplay some civil war from story of republic?
- Much worse.
- They want me to pay them for all their centuries of army service in Ashen?
- No, caesar, plebians from other lands just refuse to believe in you
*poof
Censor- Seems we need to find a new jobs, guys.
Legatus- Damn, we are all unemployed again
Tribune- I am kinda bored of all those conquests, and other generic evil stuff.
Wraithlord- Guys, we can become deathmetal band!
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 20, 2015, 03:55:28 pm
So for example, with a mage at level one astral, could I cast Power of the Spheres and then spend two astral gems to cast Antimagic? One gem to boost up to three and the other to spend the gem on the spell.
Post by: E. Albright on October 20, 2015, 06:34:08 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 21, 2015, 05:55:42 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 21, 2015, 06:30:16 am
Quote from: Manual
Underwater efffects: slashing and blunt weapons have an attack penalty equal to weapon length
underwater, while piercing weapons do not. If a weapon does both piercing damage as well as another
type, the underwater penalty is halved.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 21, 2015, 07:04:07 am
Could it be this?Must be, since the discrepancy disappears on land. However, the numbers still don't match: the glaive is length 4, does both slashing and piercing, and has inherent -1 attack modifier. That should add up to a -3 attack, while they get a -2.Quote from: ManualUnderwater efffects: slashing and blunt weapons have an attack penalty equal to weapon length
underwater, while piercing weapons do not. If a weapon does both piercing damage as well as another
type, the underwater penalty is halved.
Post by: E. Albright on October 21, 2015, 09:54:39 am
Post by: BFEL on October 21, 2015, 01:44:36 pm
Post by: PrimusRibbus on October 21, 2015, 02:06:59 pm
And for some reason that made me wonder: Is it possible to mod in weapons with absurd lengths? Could you make a weapon with a length of 50? If so, would it have any effect on the game?
Yes. Its effect would be that it could roll repels for pretty much any melee attack against itself or allied units in its square. How effective that would be would depend completely on the unit's stats (and since a unit gets an additional -2 penalty to their repel roll each time they repel in a turn, its effectiveness would be limited).
Repel tends to be a great thing for mass produced units like pikemen since they benefit from being able to repel for eachother, but isn't wildly useful for a single thug or SC.
Additional info on repel mechanics:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on October 22, 2015, 01:19:07 am
http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Dominions_4_Wiki (http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Dominions_4_Wiki)
It needs some work still.
Post by: Frumple on October 23, 2015, 01:31:14 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 23, 2015, 02:15:09 pm
One possible addition to NG that has been mooted would be to add random merc generation...
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 23, 2015, 02:30:15 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 23, 2015, 03:32:17 pm
Yes, there is a finite number, even though that number was upped in Dom4.Excellent.
And yeah, more or less. *updates quest list*
Spoiler: quest list (click to show/hide)
Post by: BFEL on October 23, 2015, 04:33:41 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 24, 2015, 08:03:03 am
Those poor defenseless soldiers of fortune!
But they were free not to join god of misfortune.
Post by: BFEL on October 24, 2015, 04:41:54 pm
The economy makes slaves of us all sir.Those poor defenseless soldiers of fortune!
But they were free not to join god of misfortune.
Post by: Frumple on October 24, 2015, 05:06:38 pm
Two pips of luck, ahaha.
... honestly, I basically never take misfortune scales. Have occasionally tried it, but even misfortune 1 has seen my nation more or less ruined within the first year, nevermind the harsher ones. Event RNG can be nasty enough without actively baiting the thing to come wreck you.
Post by: E. Albright on October 24, 2015, 05:21:08 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 24, 2015, 05:24:35 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 24, 2015, 05:54:18 pm
I'unno, mostly it just seems to add an element of RNG to the game that is incredibly risky. Extra points can give you an edge, obviously enough, but you're counting on the bad events to not be ruinous and, well... putting a(n even) large(r) part of your success in the game in the hands of Dom4's RNG is not exactly what I'd call desirable. It likes to kill people.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 25, 2015, 05:36:02 am
Dont know if it is a bug, but with cat charm bards become femenine enough to seduce male commanders. And with bear claw charm female seducers sometimes succeed in seducing other female commanders.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 25, 2015, 06:32:03 am
It's even implicited by the items' description, IIRC.
Post by: BFEL on October 25, 2015, 07:45:21 am
Been wondering that since Dom3
Also that is REALLY clever.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 25, 2015, 07:49:53 am
I know it did before the seduction chances patch, but don't know if they kept that feature (though it would be logical they did).
PS : By the way, browsing through NationGen results, I found something weird (E.Albright, it may concerns you ) :
One of the nations I generated had sacred units who "shapeshifts into a great boar when damaged". The thing is, they're a Ichtyid nation, so everybody is amphibious, including the sacred. But, according to the inspector, the Great Boar when shapechanging is not amphibious. I don't know whether they should, but it seems weird anyway :)
Natgen version 0.6.7; setting code: 6; Nation 120: Yasnom generated with seed 1079984541
Post by: E. Albright on October 25, 2015, 12:27:28 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 26, 2015, 11:28:49 am
How the blood bless damage works?
Post by: E. Albright on October 26, 2015, 12:48:32 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 26, 2015, 01:59:42 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 26, 2015, 02:23:03 pm
Post by: PrimusRibbus on October 26, 2015, 03:02:23 pm
You can make them riskier and/or costlier, yes. However, because BV is MR-based, high MR mages and/or those with solid MR gear can largely ignore it, especially if they have high HP and/or regen to make the occasional inevitable failure less disastrous. It's a good counter to hordes of low-cost mages engaging in evo spam, though.
Only if they're not casting high-end evos. A mage casting Fire Storm on a Flagellant zerg with BV is pretty much going to die, even if their MR is 24+. It is highly effective against strategies that are relying on mass destruction battle spells because the type of mages that can tank that are end-game summons; and in an MP game you probably aren't getting access to them if you raced for high-end evos.
The problem with B9 bless isn't its anti-mage effectiveness, it's that it tends to be a big waste of design points: The Pretender buff sucks, it's not a good choice for site searching, and you don't get much in the way of battlefield help from it... all so you can run a one-trick pony strategy based around hoping that most of your army gets killed by the right enemy.
Post by: E. Albright on October 26, 2015, 03:38:32 pm
I suspect you've never tried dealing with really obscene MRs - when you've seen a single unit laugh off 20-30 boosted Disintegrates per turn for 50+ turns, you gain some respect for what MR stacking can really do.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 26, 2015, 04:09:06 pm
I guess I could sorta' see it if you're playing one of those hyperaggressive bless nations that crush the entire map before turn 20 and just outrun your own dominion? I'd rather just take death scales or some heat/cold or... anything but misfortune, really. Seem to recall that some people swear by order/misfortune, but I've tried that and it... doesn't really help. Plus there's some really good beneficial order events.An update - sometime in the last month or three, I dunno - changed it so that the effects of order/turmoil on the likelyness of events is pretty damn minuscule. It used to be that you wanted either order/misfortune or turmoil/luck/magic, but now... now the optimal way of doing it is luck+magic and do whatever you want with order/turmoil because it makes no real difference to the other two. I believe its a 12% swing to event chance from max order to max turmoil, who cares about that? Luck + magic is THE strong scale right now IMO. Let's say you have, to pick arbitrary numbers, an 80 gold 7 research mage as your main lab rat. At magic 3 they're at 10 research, which effectively "saves" 35 gold and a little under half a fort turn every recruit, AND about 2.5 gold every turn in upkeep. So it saves you money and fort turns (which are the same thing as money until at least the start of year 3). And then all the gem-gen events will flood you with gems once finish your earlygame expansion and domspread.
I'unno, mostly it just seems to add an element of RNG to the game that is incredibly risky. Extra points can give you an edge, obviously enough, but you're counting on the bad events to not be ruinous and, well... putting a(n even) large(r) part of your success in the game in the hands of Dom4's RNG is not exactly what I'd call desirable. It likes to kill people.
All that being said, I ran 2 turmoil 3 misfortune in a game and won, simply by being strong in the early game and running a gold-light build. General rule if you want to take misfortune is, its more annoying than other negative scales would be, but probably less actually harmful. The exceptions are that if you take less than order 2 (I believe) you'll get attacked, any amount of turmoil will make those attacks actually somewhat dangerous, and NEVER take death at 2/3 or drain at 3 if you go into misfortune. I think there's a very strong argument to make that if you go positive on every other non-heat scale going misfortune is an efficient use of points.
The GOOD thing about BV summons is that it doesn't matter even a tiny bit the actual quality of the sacreds. Those 15 protection 18 defense skill heavy cavalry will be helped exactly as much by BV as a 0 protection 8 defense skill animal summon. There is literally one concern, and that is the HP of the sacred compared to how difficult and costly it is to recruit. This is why LA C'tis LOVES BV, because their Tomb Kings can freespawn two big bags of sacred health every turn totally for free. I've really considered picking up a nation with beefy but useless sacred summons (like MA Tien Chi with their celestial servants) and getting B9, and then putting them second row just as a *hit me you fucker I dare you* in the mid game. Seems like too much of a gimmick rather than an actual useful strategy tho.You can make them riskier and/or costlier, yes. However, because BV is MR-based, high MR mages and/or those with solid MR gear can largely ignore it, especially if they have high HP and/or regen to make the occasional inevitable failure less disastrous. It's a good counter to hordes of low-cost mages engaging in evo spam, though.
Only if they're not casting high-end evos. A mage casting Fire Storm on a Flagellant zerg with BV is pretty much going to die, even if their MR is 24+. It is highly effective against strategies that are relying on mass destruction battle spells because the type of mages that can tank that are end-game summons; and in an MP game you probably aren't getting access to them if you raced for high-end evos.
The problem with B9 bless isn't its anti-mage effectiveness, it's that it tends to be a big waste of design points: The Pretender buff sucks, it's not a good choice for site searching, and you don't get much in the way of battlefield help from it... all so you can run a one-trick pony strategy based around hoping that most of your army gets killed by the right enemy.
I would say BV is at its best for games where you've got a really nice endgame relative to the other nations/players, or where you know it will be decided in the midgame. As E. Albright is suggesting, in the late-late game (or earlier if pretenders are involved) counters WILL emerge. This is true of all sacreds, but BV is best in double/triple blesses and like PrimusRibbus said isn't going to give you many new lategame options seeing as how you can just empower blood into whatever crosspaths you want. I do think that BV is viable but it has a fairly narrow niche, it needs to fit your strategic aims AND you need to be running a nation with a high-health/easy to mass sacred.
Post by: PrimusRibbus on October 26, 2015, 06:37:06 pm
24 is not the same as 29 - not by a long shot. As a quick test, I took an MR-29 Debug Sensai and had it cast Fire Storm on a horde of 280 B9 sacreds. The sacreds routed, and the DS never took a single hit.
I suspect you've never tried dealing with really obscene MRs - when you've seen a single unit laugh off 20-30 boosted Disintegrates per turn for 50+ turns, you gain some respect for what MR stacking can really do.
You're absolutely right! Late-game geared units with 30ish MR have less than a one percent chance of being hit by BV. Once you hit the point where people are running around with multiple high level research paths, most expansion strategies (like blesses) are out the window.
I assumed that when you said "high MR" and "occasional inevitable failure" you were talking about where people get to in most 1v1 or small FFA multiplayer games (24-25ish) where MR buys you time, not practical immunity; the sky is the limit if we're talking about slower MP or rules variations though. My apologies on the misinterpretation.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 27, 2015, 08:58:37 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 27, 2015, 09:10:26 am
Otherwise Pangea, since they have such nice fatty-creatures that even as clueless player I can surive the early multiplayer and use harpys and stuff to spy and learn from others.
Post by: Shadowgandor on October 27, 2015, 09:58:34 am
Post by: Frumple on October 27, 2015, 10:35:57 am
Post by: Shadowlord on October 27, 2015, 12:55:45 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on October 27, 2015, 01:01:18 pm
All the while they've got an interesting contrast going on for their racials, their strengths are always fun to play around with even if they don't have the best nationals though I love having prime access to a decent holy 3 and death magic, along with a strong dominion effect in the middle ages.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 27, 2015, 07:42:10 pm
Played an MP with LA C'tis once, they were interesting. Death magic is fun to play with. Frail but they can kick some serious butt.
Others of interest, in some mix of theme and gameplay, are monkies, MA Mictlan and Agartha. Never played those outside of some SP test games.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 27, 2015, 07:45:33 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 27, 2015, 08:38:49 pm
I really, REALLY want to like the underwater nations, as Atlantis is my One True Love all the way back to Dom1... but underwater is so flat. I hope and pray that the alluded-to-but-not-actually-promised "second half" of the underwater patch will add a bit more strategic flavor to the seas. If it does, I'll probably get off my duff and either add or try to cajole Elmokki into adding optional aquatic nations to NationGen, as much as a PITA as some of those (e.g., merfolk - or more importantly, merhoburgs) would be to define compared to 'lubber nations...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 27, 2015, 08:43:13 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2015, 06:30:05 am
I realize why this is (there are what? 1-3 maybe underwater races in each age... versus the billion of land), but it is just so jarring and kind of turns me off Water races every time.
Post by: BFEL on October 28, 2015, 06:52:22 am
The unfortunate thing about early vs late bloomers is that they scale WILDLY based on the type of game being played. Like, the current NG game is squarely in the lategame and while many people are crippled no one is huge that I know of and no one is 100% dead yet. Because its a big fricken game.I'm out of the game and Turland AI'd
And if you REALLY think "no one is huge" you've been paying even less attention to Rizdos then I was :P
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for my fave nations, Atlantis was a favorite in Dom3, but they got somewhat nerfed in this one. Pangea is always good, but the nation that surprised me with how much I like it has to be LA Caelum.
I did not expect to love birdmans this much.
It has TWO ranged sacreds, one that's a fast cheap one and one that is heavily armored and generally not gonna die instantly. With F9D9 bless these bastards kill ERRYTHING. And of course there are MAMMOTHS for if you need something to hit heavy in melee, though that's...problematic if they rout.
But where I found it shines is it's pretty much PERFECT for Corpse Man spam. It has plenty of low level earth mages (with resource creation as a bonus) to make lightning rods, and then Air/Death for the spell and that ring that ALSO boosts Frankenstein yield.
So you send in the Frankensteins as a wall to hold off enemies while your arrows WRECK ERRYBODY.
And of course the focus on Construction is handy for pretty much EVERYTHING, so it has a bit of versatility too.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 28, 2015, 06:56:21 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 28, 2015, 07:51:09 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 28, 2015, 10:24:39 am
Post by: E. Albright on October 28, 2015, 11:02:37 am
Yeah not going to lie... Water does kind of feel... a LOT less complex then land.
I realize why this is (there are what? 1-3 maybe underwater races in each age... versus the billion of land), but it is just so jarring and kind of turns me off Water races every time.
Actually there's a modest sum of races at this point, though still very much a minority. EA is 5 aquatic (albeit one being a weird domkill one) plus 1 amphibious; MA is 4 aquatic plus 2 amphibious; and only LA really suffers with 1 aquatic, 1 semi-aquatic, 1 amphibious, and 2 semi-amphibious.
No, what kills UW for me is how blah all the provinces are; they're Sea or Deep Sea (and neither of those are particularly appealing), and they're one map move no matter what. Everything feels sluggish and samey, even if you have a race completely adapted to the environment. Mapmakers generally don't help either, as maps are usually designed with seas as strung-out barriers (the land/sea dominion spread penalty from the last patch helps with this, but only a little), ill-developed afterthoughts, or in the extreme, entirely omitted.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 28, 2015, 12:09:47 pm
...do you realize how large I was when you guys teamed up on me? Its a big map, thirty provinces or whatever doesn't count as huge.The unfortunate thing about early vs late bloomers is that they scale WILDLY based on the type of game being played. Like, the current NG game is squarely in the lategame and while many people are crippled no one is huge that I know of and no one is 100% dead yet. Because its a big fricken game.I'm out of the game and Turland AI'd
And if you REALLY think "no one is huge" you've been paying even less attention to Rizdos then I was :P
My issue with water is, like, nothing works. There are very very few ranged attacks, spells seemed to have been designed with the default being land-only rather than either way, troops are all very similar, and there are very few amphibious units (which makes the fact that poor amphibian is even a thing kind of a kick in the teeth). The Queens of Elemental Water can only be summoned UW making them only useful for camping the oceans, which if you get that far you're already easily capable of doing.Yeah not going to lie... Water does kind of feel... a LOT less complex then land.
I realize why this is (there are what? 1-3 maybe underwater races in each age... versus the billion of land), but it is just so jarring and kind of turns me off Water races every time.
Actually there's a modest sum of races at this point, though still very much a minority. EA is 5 aquatic (albeit one being a weird domkill one) plus 1 amphibious; MA is 4 aquatic plus 2 amphibious; and only LA really suffers with 1 aquatic, 1 semi-aquatic, 1 amphibious, and 2 semi-amphibious.
No, what kills UW for me is how blah all the provinces are; they're Sea or Deep Sea (and neither of those are particularly appealing), and they're one map move no matter what. Everything feels sluggish and samey, even if you have a race completely adapted to the environment. Mapmakers generally don't help either, as maps are usually designed with seas as strung-out barriers (the land/sea dominion spread penalty from the last patch helps with this, but only a little), ill-developed afterthoughts, or in the extreme, entirely omitted.
Shark Tribe Tritons are infamously powerful underwater, and all they have is 3 attacks. That's good, sure, but two knives and a bite on a terrible human chassis wouldn't be nearly as useful abovewater because even without magic the troop game abovewater has at least a little bit of complexity to it.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 28, 2015, 12:27:55 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 28, 2015, 02:52:52 pm
Post by: BFEL on October 28, 2015, 06:30:44 pm
I meant he's ABOUT to fucking explode all over your lands and there is nothing you can do about it you poor bastard....do you realize how large I was when you guys teamed up on me? Its a big map, thirty provinces or whatever doesn't count as huge.The unfortunate thing about early vs late bloomers is that they scale WILDLY based on the type of game being played. Like, the current NG game is squarely in the lategame and while many people are crippled no one is huge that I know of and no one is 100% dead yet. Because its a big fricken game.I'm out of the game and Turland AI'd
And if you REALLY think "no one is huge" you've been paying even less attention to Rizdos then I was :P
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 28, 2015, 06:42:48 pm
Post by: BFEL on October 29, 2015, 01:22:57 am
I'm hoping to try a Disciples game next, since I obviously suck and having someone to help me out would be nice.
Anyway, since we talked about what our favorite/best nations are, what are your least fave/most underpowered nations? I personally think LA Man is pretty crap, but that could just be not knowing how to play them well.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 29, 2015, 01:52:05 am
Post by: BFEL on October 29, 2015, 01:55:06 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 29, 2015, 02:31:50 am
The worst they could do is Mind Hunt you, but even then... they aren't particularly good at it, and they have nothing to gain from doing that since they have no hope of ever leaving the ocean.
Post by: Cruxador on October 29, 2015, 03:06:58 am
How the blood bless damage works?I'd like to point out that this is the kind of thing which is answered by the wiki. The wiki (http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Bless), like every wiki, is an eternal WIP, but the bless info is pretty decent.
What are yer favorite nations, bay12ers?EA Agartha, hands down. I like that they can go anywhere (amphibious) but have a home base (in the caves) and I like big mages with big earth. I've blogged (https://cruxador.wordpress.com/about/) a game of that and will have another dropping soon.
So EA Rl'yeh doesn't fuck you up with no chance of retaliation?EA R'lyeh is the worst nation in the game. They get big mages, but they're aquatic and so are all the troops. With enough construction, and somehow breaking into air, you can get the commanders to be amphibious. But even then there's no solution for the troops.
Post by: E. Albright on November 02, 2015, 04:29:25 pm
(http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r734/Image_buffer/pv_zpsfrrqnd6f.png)
0.6.8a: https://github.com/elmokki/nationgen/releases/tag/0.6.8
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 02, 2015, 08:08:14 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on November 02, 2015, 08:10:19 pm
(Unless it's a sharkbirdmancentaur!)
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 02, 2015, 09:17:53 pm
Quote from: release notes
Flying fish mount for pygmiesI... don't see why not?
Post by: Shadowlord on November 02, 2015, 11:07:52 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 03, 2015, 05:32:38 pm
The Large Fish from the last patch caught my imagination like nothing since the Demon Parrot had, and since we still haven't added UW nation support and it couldn't thus be made into a merhoburg mount, making it flying was pretty much the only reasonable course of action. For a very loose definition of "reasonable", obviously.
Post by: Elfeater on November 03, 2015, 07:13:58 pm
Post by: Frumple on November 03, 2015, 07:51:36 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 03, 2015, 08:39:22 pm
Post by: Frumple on November 03, 2015, 08:46:02 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on November 03, 2015, 08:56:39 pm
(And I think that's what I was seeing when I was hunting BVC holders in a previous game - with them still diseasing a province even though I caught and chased them away the same turn.)
P.S. If they have friendly territory adjacent, they're likely set to retreat, so mind hunt, flying patrollers, or lots of archers in the front row are your best options to actually kill them.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 04, 2015, 01:39:32 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on November 04, 2015, 01:42:18 pm
I don't see why they wouldn't update Dom4 any further.
Post by: Frumple on November 04, 2015, 02:19:31 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 04, 2015, 02:34:48 pm
More generally, though, as Frumple and DF point out, Dominions has been gradually - sometimes sporadically - but more-or-less continuously receiving further updates for going on... 15 years? There's no sign of that changing ATM.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 06, 2015, 02:32:53 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 06, 2015, 03:05:39 pm
Post by: AlStar on November 07, 2015, 12:27:35 pm
I know that glamour commanders are notoriously hard to target with spells, and don't feel like wasting the slaves or mage turns if it's not going to work.
Post by: E. Albright on November 07, 2015, 02:00:08 pm
Post by: AlStar on November 07, 2015, 02:38:38 pm
As in most such cases, the problem isn't the Glamour, it's the stealth.Meaning it won't work?
Let's say (completely theoretically, of course) that this commander just attacked a province this turn. If I cast the spell, it should fire in the magic part of the turn, intercepting him before he can re-stealth, right?
Post by: E. Albright on November 07, 2015, 02:48:55 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 08, 2015, 06:53:24 am
How electrocuting mechanics work? In combat logs I dont see any damage for those, who attack corpse constructs
Who defeated the ashen empire in lore?
How to protect mage from rain of stones?
Is la rlyeh freespawn supposed to cost money?
Post by: E. Albright on November 08, 2015, 11:19:34 am
Who defeated the ashen empire in lore?
Marignon, though they turned to diabolism in order to do so.
How to protect mage from rain of stones?
Go first and cast spells like Fog Warriors. Or armor the mages individually. There's no simple cheap way of doing so.
Is la rlyeh freespawn supposed to cost money?
Yup.
Post by: Frumple on November 25, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 25, 2015, 02:10:09 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on November 25, 2015, 04:15:30 pm
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2631&st=0
Post by: Shadowlord on November 25, 2015, 04:31:52 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on November 25, 2015, 04:35:33 pm
Post by: BFEL on November 26, 2015, 09:12:32 am
Oh, second question: In a Disciples game, if one of you claims a throne such as The Golden Throne, who gets the gold? The person who claimed it, the god, or everyone on the team? Similar question with gems.
Post by: E. Albright on November 26, 2015, 11:09:41 am
Last I knew, you could still "steal" Bogus & co's special targeting, but that's generally viewed as cheating in most MP communities. It's also possible it no longer works, as I've never tested it.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 26, 2015, 11:18:21 am
Post by: E. Albright on November 26, 2015, 11:51:54 am
Post by: Karlito on November 26, 2015, 11:55:38 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 27, 2015, 12:02:08 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 27, 2015, 12:04:36 pm
Post by: BFEL on November 27, 2015, 12:05:42 pm
How you, guys, play MA Ermor / Lemuria?Kill everything ever.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 08, 2015, 04:45:56 pm
Playing a single player game as MA Ulm cause I trust nothing but the steel in my hand and the brothers at my side. Eight players on the map that's a big disc with an underground and floating islands, got a pretty choice spot too, right on the only way to the northwest floating island, which happens to have a throne of ascension on it. Haven't gotten around to conquering it yet since there's a big regiment of cataphracts there.
Just in time for my first real war I hit Evo 6, swiss-cheesed a giant army of Jotun with iron blizzard. I got the lucky air smith + air site so almost all of my researchers have quills and I can't imagine we're not way ahead of the others on research. Working on getting magma eruption online but I haven't been very fortunate with my smiths so I don't have many that can cast it.
Now I'm getting to that phase of the game I don't really know how to play. Things start getting very micro-intensive and turns take a long time and my initial goals are done and I don't really know where to go next cause I almost never get this far.
I know low-stakes games like singleplayer should be experimental and I should see what works, but a little guidance would go a long way to helping me figure this silly game out.
So what would you guys suggest I do as MA Ulm, when I've got several big armies and a few good victories against Jotunheim under my belt, enough to probably shove straight into their territory. I killed like half of their main army last turn. I just hit evo 6 and I'm thinking construction would probably be best to start pumping out earth boots for magma eruption. After that, I dunno. I guess that starts the thug/SC stage of the game but that's something I have no idea about. My Allfather is A4S6D3, so I can make bane lords with a skull staff, and equip them with whatever, fire brands and shit.
Past that I dunno man. Is Iron Angel good? Is it worth going that deep into conjuration? (I guess tartarians are inevitable so it's on the way?) What else should I be looking at with Ulm? I'm getting into terra incognita.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 08, 2015, 09:05:07 pm
I always did prefer armies + army buffs over thugs, if you can grab some buffs from alteration tree. Just to give options.
Either way go and skewer some jotuns.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 08, 2015, 09:32:19 pm
For noobs, I would say spammable combat magic + army is the way to go.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 08, 2015, 09:43:20 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 08, 2015, 10:01:17 pm
You've already noticed you've got decent workhorse combat spell access, so... keep using those. You should be more or less oozing master smiths out of your pores.
If you've got the D income, consider using the allfather to pump out a few revenants, who can take up the staff and start making staves for themselves/forging cheap D items*, or spamming raise spells in combat to chaff down the giants. Good way to bootstrap some D forging industry when you don't have native/indie casters available.
Don't forget your remote attack spells, and don't fear to research them up and use them -- E actually has some fairly nasty ones, if you can scrounge up boosters for your fairly anemic casters.
You might consider playing around with communions a bit -- one of the few easy-ish ways to get stronger battlefield spell access with MA Ulm's kinda' shitty path access (I actually hadn't noticed it until I checked just now -- did you know MA Ulm is literally the only nation in the middle age that doesn't have at least a chance at native, non-boosted 4X casters?). Ulm's even got really cheap access to the slave crystals via hammer'd master smiths if you don't want to screw around too hard with the scripting.
I'd probably recommend a lot of trinket forging if you're not already doing it -- those master smiths with hammers you should have a bazillion of can be putting out one gem 5X cost items to make your commanders more troublesome. The priest smiths you've been producing at the capital (... right? You have been?) can do the same thing for only a gem more. Warbows+aiming eyes from your A randoms (and owl quills, when they're not forging more offensive stuff), reinvig/MR (strength belt, lodestone) from anything, AM/crowns for the S randoms, fire jars for your F randoms looking to put out elementals or somethin', there's just a bunch of stuff you can be doing there if you've got the income and the mostly-idle casters. Remember: O (monthly forging) is Ulm's friend.
*Skelliespam amulets are pretty much always useful if you're using any non-caster commanders whatsoever. It takes all of 2D to set up a black servant/bane venom factory -- with a 2A forger somewhere, you can make them fly, too! And all of 1N gets nice stealth boosts on top of that, if you have N income you're not really using for anything Jotuns are usually pretty gold intensive, so a nice flock of BVC carriers on their high income provinces can cripple them in cheerfully short order.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 08, 2015, 10:36:15 pm
Iron blizzard spam is pretty effective. Priest smiths are good for that. You can also give them earth boots or let them cast summon earthpower at the start of the battle, and then they can cast magma eruption. Any of your master smiths can do the same to cast magma eruption too, but you probably want to keep most of them researching or forging things instead.
Iron angels can be good SCs. The smithing discount is a huge advantage when kitting them out, since it means you can make equipment far more cheaply than your opponents. I'd also look at Earth Blood Deep Well (Ench 7, requires E6 skill) to increase your earth gem income, which can let you make more stuff or summon more iron angels or other units. One item I'd suggest would be the shield of gleaming gold. It gives awe, which makes it difficult for normal (non-mindless, iirc) units to attack. Awe's no protection against undead and the like, of course. (This tends to become a problem if you run into Asphodel, because their manikins' sleep vines can incapacitate your iron angels)
Frumple mentioned remote attack spells - The only earth one I know of is Earth Attack at conjuration 8. It's pretty good: It summons an earth elemental to wreck a commander in the target province. It doesn't hit anyone hiding (only mind hunt does that), and is less effective against giants (because they're too big to trample), but is super effective against normal sized units. You need someone with E5 skill to cast it. My go-to method was to cast Troll King's Court (Conj 6) to get an E3 troll king, then give him earth boots and a blood stone. You'd need to get someone up to B3E2 to make blood stones, but getting blood up to B3 isn't too difficult.
Post by: Frumple on December 08, 2015, 10:46:07 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on December 09, 2015, 03:18:15 am
Are lizards immune to heat fatigue?
How probince temp affects fatigue?
What are the ways of increasing cold aura of unit?
Do astral fires set enemies on fire for prolonged time?
Being on fire is some real effect or just ,, fancy" graphics?
Did anybody manage to successfully deploy bless strategy for ermor/ lemuria?
Are angels supposed to be that creepy?
How devastating is illwinter spell?
How do I calculate fatigue/ damage effect for chill/ heat/ fire dhield effects?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 09, 2015, 03:31:01 am
Post by: Shadowlord on December 09, 2015, 03:47:57 am
I figured someone whacked the pretender who cast it.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 09, 2015, 04:06:22 am
The good news about Illwinter is it takes blood slaves, so its vastly cheaper to cast then most of the other globals in the game.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 09, 2015, 04:25:22 am
Then there's the random Niefel giant(s?) that attacks enemy provinces every now and then.
Granted, I've only cast it once, in Dom3, so it might have been changed.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 09, 2015, 04:46:19 am
It got cast recently in a game I'm playing now. It turned all my provinces cold, which would be bad for my cold blooded units, but then it disappeared the next turn.Happened recently in one I was playing in too. I had a pile of astral gems and some S3 sages from a Golden Throne I was occupying though, so I just took it down with a Dispel. Does that one actually awake giants of some sort if left to last, as its descriptions alludes to?
I figured someone whacked the pretender who cast it.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on December 09, 2015, 04:52:43 am
Granted, I've only cast it once, in Dom3, so it might have been changed.Nope, there still are the Niefel giants attacking randomly everywhere. I read that they're more likely to attack where there is high enemy dominion.
Still, a bit disappointing : the nation who would benefit the most from it while having the paths (Niefelheim) basically has the same giants, so their enemies might already have the defenses against it set up.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 09, 2015, 10:56:49 am
How does one protect himself from acid?
You don't. Acid is the only element with no resistances tied to it, so no specific way to protect yourself against it exists. Pumping up natural protection and defence is the best you can do.
Being on fire is some real effect or just ,, fancy" graphics?
It is an actual effect. I believe that it deals some damage over time along with fatigue. Very useful as EA/MA Abysia given how few your troops are, yet they all have considerable heat auras.
Are angels supposed to be that creepy?
Yes. Most of them are taken straight from the Bible/Old Testiment too, so the developers weren't pulling them out of their asses or anything like that. That is really how they are described.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 09, 2015, 12:12:42 pm
It got cast recently in a game I'm playing now. It turned all my provinces cold, which would be bad for my cold blooded units, but then it disappeared the next turn.Happened recently in one I was playing in too. I had a pile of astral gems and some S3 sages from a Golden Throne I was occupying though, so I just took it down with a Dispel. Does that one actually awake giants of some sort if left to last, as its descriptions alludes to?
I figured someone whacked the pretender who cast it.
Same game, and aha, so that's what happened. By the way, after you went AI your AI got aggressive and started taking provinces. Hasn't sieged any forts yet, though. :P
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 09, 2015, 01:32:38 pm
Oh hey... Trafalgar. Should've noticed your steam profile link sooner. >_>It got cast recently in a game I'm playing now. It turned all my provinces cold, which would be bad for my cold blooded units, but then it disappeared the next turn.Happened recently in one I was playing in too. I had a pile of astral gems and some S3 sages from a Golden Throne I was occupying though, so I just took it down with a Dispel. Does that one actually awake giants of some sort if left to last, as its descriptions alludes to?
I figured someone whacked the pretender who cast it.
Same game, and aha, so that's what happened. By the way, after you went AI your AI got aggressive and started taking provinces. Hasn't sieged any forts yet, though. :P
And good to know. I left it some decent tools to facilitate whatever destruction it decides to unleash. I suspect I would have started doing the same. And would have failed as quickly as it will. :P
Post by: hemperor on December 09, 2015, 11:15:29 pm
It got cast recently in a game I'm playing now. It turned all my provinces cold, which would be bad for my cold blooded units, but then it disappeared the next turn.Happened recently in one I was playing in too. I had a pile of astral gems and some S3 sages from a Golden Throne I was occupying though, so I just took it down with a Dispel. Does that one actually awake giants of some sort if left to last, as its descriptions alludes to?
I figured someone whacked the pretender who cast it.
the last game that i played, my entire army of 90 units and the pretender god dissapeared for no reason after i sucessfully siega a citadel, i get less than 9 casualites, destroyed their god, and my army and god disappeared for no reason and the game just continues on in the next turn how northing happened, and they aren't even listedon the units overview menu and nothing just gone!
Post by: sprinkled chariot on December 10, 2015, 02:21:45 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on December 10, 2015, 02:41:49 pm
Quote
The holiness of the Ark is so great that it constantly spreads the Dominion of its owner to all nearby provinces. If the Ark is brought into battle, it will kill and blind all heretics and spread disease among them. Only priests and sacred troops of the proper religion are spared from the wrath of the Ark.That's an artifact you can make.
There are also regular items that can apply permanent effects, like eye loss (eye shield), or disease, etc.
The Shrink spell has a permanent effect. Blindness. Enfeeble (I haven't tried this one). Petrify. Liquify. Bone Grinding.
And so on. A lot of these spells I haven't used because why cast a spell to cripple someone when you can cast a spell to kill them instead? The items are more useful because you can put them on a non-mage, such as a thug or SC.
Post by: Frumple on December 10, 2015, 03:05:54 pm
Are there any army wrecking battlefield enchantmets, which stay after the caster retreats from the battlefield?Any of the damaging/debilitating battlefield enchantments would, near as I can recall, though most of them wouldn't do much if the caster was the only allied thing on the field before retreating. Wide spread poison would tick away for a bit after a retreat, but it isn't likely to do much to anything except bog-standard human armies, and even then from what I recall the actually battlefield wide one(s?) take some time to ramp up (so an immediate retreat would be fairly suboptimal). Otherwise SL covered most of it pretty well.
Though to the reason for crippling instead of killing... it can be a nasty thing to do to enemies units with an upkeep, especially if you can manage it en masse. A bunch of blind sacreds or whathaveyou are pretty close to gold-sinking weights around your opponent's neck, and they have to sink resources/attention into either fixing them or getting rid of them. Diseased et al casters and whatnot can cause your opponent to do possibly silly things in an attempt to eke out a bit more use before they die, and feeblemind or whathaveyou is always amusing to drop on that 200+ gold/dozens of gems commander if you can't actually kill them. Softening up an encroaching army or SC with afflictions can also lead to your opponent overestimating what they can accomplish when the real battle comes. Lot of good reasons to spread the affliction love around, providing you can manage it and don't have anything better to do with your resources.
And in the end, a lot of times it's just that much easier to cripple something than it is to kill them outright, and then you can either deal with them later with much less effort, or laugh as your foe is stuck with the now-useless things. The latter's particularly fun, honestly. There's few things quite as amusing as a giant death-stack showing up at your castle's door, half blind, all diseased, and starving, promptly routed by a force a fraction of their size. Not even killed, but set to running and still sucking on the teat of your foe's coffers and scattered to the winds to boot. There's lamentations when that happens, shadow. Lamentations.
Post by: Micro102 on December 11, 2015, 02:27:58 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 11, 2015, 02:42:42 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on December 11, 2015, 02:46:11 pm
(It seems to load properly in Microsoft The Edge but as of the last few months, not in Chrome anymore, for some reason.)
Post by: gman8181 on December 11, 2015, 02:50:47 pm
They're pretty easy to play. The griffin riders are excellent and about 6-8 can take out almost any independent province. You get some nice magic diversity with your mages although some of them can only be recruited in certain climate scales. Going into Evocation is nice of course because you can throw around air and fire magic. You can also branch into blood pretty easily. Mmm I think with some luck and boosters you can forge soul contracts. Not sure about the national mages but I'm pretty sure one of the national summons has enough blood and fire to pull it off after you build some blood boosters. I used a bunch of devils led by the national summon commanders late game.
Oh and the temples are expensive but they give you fire gems. Only up to a certain amount, though I'm not sure what number it caps off at.
Post by: E. Albright on December 11, 2015, 02:55:26 pm
Post by: ArKFallen on December 11, 2015, 08:39:10 pm
In case you don't check Desura's modding subforum there is a mod (Visible Sites (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/visible-sites)) that removes the need to site search by making sites visible by default. I find it really good for SP. A lower frequency would also be interesting for MP.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on December 11, 2015, 11:47:33 pm
Post by: BFEL on December 12, 2015, 01:32:18 am
Oh and the temples are expensive but they give you fire gems. Only up to a certain amount, though I'm not sure what number it caps off at.Wait so they stop giving you gems after you've gotten ten gems from ALL your temples, or each temple gives you a max of 10 gems?
Remember seeing a death version of that on Turland in the last NatGen game, so I'm pretty curious about this now.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on December 12, 2015, 02:49:17 am
Post by: Shadowlord on December 12, 2015, 03:21:16 am
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on December 12, 2015, 03:35:35 am
-400 gold +10 gems.
So basically the 10 gems of one of the types your nation needs are good. Really good.
Post by: Frumple on December 12, 2015, 08:00:58 am
The temples really are hella' expensive, though.
Post by: soyweiser on December 12, 2015, 08:04:38 am
Post by: gman8181 on December 12, 2015, 09:26:17 am
That doesn't sound very useful.
Shrug. An extra ten gems per turn never hurt anyone. I'd rather have temples that create gems than temples that don't create gems. Besides I like to use soul contracts with Ragha, so I actually find it reasonably useful.
Post by: soyweiser on December 12, 2015, 12:55:25 pm
Will the plague/ wind of death( or how that killing all non undead wind spell is called) continue working and help my thug geared for EXTREME SURVIVAL, while this 10 hp old fat caster guy runs away trying not to fall down in mud with his face because his ermorian toga is such an awesome thing for jogging?
If it is the battlefield global, these usually stop when their caster is gone. (Fled, killed, banished). Don't remember what happens when you mind control them from the other team.
Any effects caused by the battlefield global do stay, but it will not generate any new effects. (So damage done stays, protections given to units stay, the dead stay dead etc, but no new damage will be done).
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 12, 2015, 01:00:40 pm
I've just sent a lich with 100-odd soulless using that spell. The army benefited from +100% hp from the gift of health.
Now, the manual says units (all? most?) should be hit by a MR death attack (so, undead should be immune) and a 1 AN attack.
Still, 90% of the soulless perished, which is way too high for a mere statistical fluke.
Anyone knows anything more about the nuts and bolts of the spell? Had some experience?
Post by: Cruxador on December 12, 2015, 02:17:29 pm
If I had to guess, that would be due to how the nation was added later on in a patch. The manual came out earlier than the nation did and I suppose the manual wasn't updated if you don't see anything about Ragha in there.Reminder that there's also a wiki.
http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Ragha_(Late_Ages)
It's not entirely complete, but for stuff you can't find in the manual it's generally your best bet.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on December 12, 2015, 03:15:01 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on December 12, 2015, 03:17:52 pm
That doesn't sound very useful.
Shrug. An extra ten gems per turn never hurt anyone. I'd rather have temples that create gems than temples that don't create gems. Besides I like to use soul contracts with Ragha, so I actually find it reasonably useful.
10 gems per turn sounds a lot better than 10 gems total. :P
Post by: Frumple on December 12, 2015, 03:21:49 pm
Does attacking seraph actually make unit blind?Yup. No clue if there's a resistance check or not, but the mod inspector definitely says they've got eyeloss on attackers, so anything that has a go at the blighters in melee has at least a chance of losing eyes.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on December 12, 2015, 03:26:06 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 12, 2015, 03:30:34 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 12, 2015, 04:03:33 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 12, 2015, 06:43:33 pm
Stygian paths, how does it work, man?MR-resist death WILL kill undead unless the spell has the "undead-immune" tag AFAIK.
I've just sent a lich with 100-odd soulless using that spell. The army benefited from +100% hp from the gift of health.
Now, the manual says units (all? most?) should be hit by a MR death attack (so, undead should be immune) and a 1 AN attack.
Still, 90% of the soulless perished, which is way too high for a mere statistical fluke.
Anyone knows anything more about the nuts and bolts of the spell? Had some experience?
Post by: E. Albright on December 12, 2015, 07:13:36 pm
Post by: gman8181 on December 12, 2015, 07:21:17 pm
That doesn't sound very useful.
Shrug. An extra ten gems per turn never hurt anyone. I'd rather have temples that create gems than temples that don't create gems. Besides I like to use soul contracts with Ragha, so I actually find it reasonably useful.
10 gems per turn sounds a lot better than 10 gems total. :P
Just looked at the overall conversation. I suppose some ambiguous things were said. Anyway, it is 1 gem per temple per turn. From what the other posters said, that goes up to a max of 10 gems per turn assuming 10 or more temples. 1 gem per temple up to a max of 10 temples. Having more than 10 temples will not raise the monthly gem income past 10. The limit is set by Max Dominion, so having less than 10 Max Dominion will lower the monthly fire gem income from 10 down to a lower number.
Post by: Karlito on December 12, 2015, 07:26:21 pm
Yep. There was a recent discussion about this on the zombie Desura forums, and I recall testing it with 0-MR, 1000hp soulless. Heavy casualties ensued.
You know, from the spell description I never would have guessed that the chaff undead hordes are among the worst units to travel on the Stygian Paths.
Post by: BFEL on December 12, 2015, 08:04:51 pm
Thank you, as Shadowlord noted, 10 per turn is amazing.That doesn't sound very useful.
Shrug. An extra ten gems per turn never hurt anyone. I'd rather have temples that create gems than temples that don't create gems. Besides I like to use soul contracts with Ragha, so I actually find it reasonably useful.
10 gems per turn sounds a lot better than 10 gems total. :P
Just looked at the overall conversation. I suppose some ambiguous things were said. Anyway, it is 1 gem per temple per turn. From what the other posters said, that goes up to a max of 10 gems per turn assuming 10 or more temples. 1 gem per temple up to a max of 10 temples. Having more than 10 temples will not raise the monthly gem income past 10. The limit is set by Max Dominion, so having less than 10 Max Dominion will lower the monthly fire gem income from 10 down to a lower number.
Post by: gman8181 on December 12, 2015, 08:18:28 pm
Now for a question of my own. Anyone here mod dominions 4?
I was working on a mod and I wanted to create something to replace the Lichcraft and Vampire Lord spells. Originally I wanted to modify the spells so that they work like the twiceborn or transformation spells. By that, I mean I want the spells to transform a mage into a lich / vampire instead of summoning one.
Unfortunately, from the research I've done, those spells seem to have hardcoded effected that can't be modified like a summoning spell for example could. I tried personally making a custom spell with the transformation effect and changing the damage value to that of the lich's id just to check and it didn't work. Pretty sure twiceborn is the same.
Anyway, on to my question. Do any of you know if it's possible to take the effects of say the Lycanthropes amulet or that troll skin artifact and modify those to get a similar effect?
Unfortunately while I'm semi competent (or barely competent :P) with modding units and spells, I know next to nothing about how more elaborate item modding works. Any help here would be much appreciated.
To clarify, I know how to modify things like damage, attack, defense, protection, encumbrance values, etc thanks to browsing that modding manual and I use the mod editor to check over everything for me and for making some value modifications. I do not however know how to do anything with any special magic like effects with items.
Post by: Frumple on December 12, 2015, 09:12:01 pm
Not even remotely a modder worth mention, though. Most I've done was a half-arsed gemless mod a few versions back.
Post by: Kagus on December 12, 2015, 09:17:43 pm
Gave Dom4 a couple more pokes after the latest update. Telkhines are WEIRD... Can't really figure out what the nation's trying to be exactly, they've got a lot of really cool eggs in a lot of very different baskets. Also, berserking undead...
I also see now that they've added in a skirmish tactic that makes ranged units try and keep out of melee range while still firing and still remaining on the battlefield. About goddamn time... That said, it seems to work a bit strangely.
I also see that the ancient kraken can now wield weapons in four of his tentacles. I sense a great potential for dickery.
And Ur still doesn't have any pretenders with recuperation, which would've played in so nicely with the god-calling benefits they have... I still have no idea what Ur is actually good at these days, aside from scouting.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 12, 2015, 09:30:48 pm
Post by: gman8181 on December 12, 2015, 09:47:44 pm
I suppose killing the mage and summoning a new unit is one way to go about it. Would have been nice to keep the experience and magic paths though... or at least the name. I'm mostly doing this to have fun in some single player games. I felt like it would fit the lore a bit better to have mages turn into liches and vampires rather than a mage creating liches and vampires. Kinda like Conquest of Elysium has it.
I was talking about a ritual spell. The Ashdod spell would probably be a nice reference if I decided to go the kill the mage and summon the unit route. I'll likely try and look up some guides on item modding first to see if I can find any feasible way to go about this. If not, at least I've got a backup plan now. :)
Post by: ArKFallen on December 12, 2015, 10:20:52 pm
I've thought about testing if the polymorph (it is the curse of the frog prince's) effect works in rituals but I haven't. It is also unknown what it will target as a ritual.
Spoiler: Curse of the Frog Prince (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shadowlord on December 12, 2015, 10:33:23 pm
Post by: ArKFallen on December 12, 2015, 10:38:46 pm
Oh gods why is the code box tiny.It isn't for me ???
Post by: Cruxador on December 12, 2015, 10:39:10 pm
It is for me as well. I'm on Chrome, maybe it's a browser thing?Oh gods why is the code box tiny.It isn't for me ???
Post by: gman8181 on December 12, 2015, 11:20:55 pm
@gman
I've thought about testing if the polymorph (it is the curse of the frog prince's) effect works in rituals but I haven't. It is also unknown what it will target as a ritual.Spoiler: Curse of the Frog Prince (click to show/hide)
Hmm. Some time tomorrow I'm hoping to find the time to do a little more modding. I'll try changing the spell to a ritual to see what happens. A quick check does confirm that the damage "2222" is the id for "Frog" so at the very least it should be interesting to try.
That might actually work out even if I can't make it a functioning ritual. As long as I can change the id to the creature I want, then make the spell a self targeting one, it might be able to transform the caster into what I want during battles. If that works, I'll see if I can make an item that autocasts the spell in battle so it kind of works like the item that autocasts twiceborn except the mage doesn't need to die.
Thanks again for the help! I'll post here with the results either way after I try it out.
Generally the answer to "how do I change the paradigm for this spell" is "you can't". A lot of stuff is totally hard-coded. I'm pretty sure that includes everything where a creature changes from one unit type to another.It is for me as well. I'm on Chrome, maybe it's a browser thing?Oh gods why is the code box tiny.It isn't for me ???
It was small for me as well so I just quoted it to read. I use chrome as well. That aside, yeah it's a shame so much of it is hard coded. I just started getting into the Dominions modding recently and it's quite fun and easy to do but it's a shame you can't do a bit more with it.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 13, 2015, 12:28:40 am
Its similar to how you can change what blood slaves and soulless are by modifying their entry in the creatures list but you can't edit the list of creatures used for those reanimation/blood slavery.
Post by: E. Albright on December 13, 2015, 12:57:07 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 13, 2015, 02:49:09 pm
[Disclaimer: I don't actually want to extract Dominions' .trs files - there are up-to-date sprite dumps available for those. What I really want to do is get access to those sweet, juicy new (well, okay, SOME of them are new) CoE4 sprites...]
[Further disclaimer: per the verbal say-so of KO, said sprites are freely usable for modding purposes, so this is on the up-and-up as all I wanna do with them is cannibalize them for NationGen...]
Post by: Kagus on December 13, 2015, 02:59:35 pm
...and then they still kept in all the underwater units and nations that use those iron-based weapons and armors.
Post by: soyweiser on December 13, 2015, 03:04:59 pm
I think there was a dom3 mod (the awesome mods series) that changed the ritual of rebirth to have different effects. It could only change the body type of normal humans, if you tried to rebirth something that was big or flying you still got a mummy.
Look at the dom3mods forums (dom4 modding is also talked about there). Might want to ask for more help there.
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?act=idx
Post by: gman8181 on December 13, 2015, 08:17:29 pm
Tried making "Curse of the Frog Prince" a ritual spell. Didn't seem to do anything. Probably needs further modding to specify a target. I guess something like how "Gift of Reason" allows one to select a unit might work. Not sure how to do that but using the #copyspell command and then changing the rest of it to match up with "Curse of Frog Prince" would probably bear results.
Made a new spell similar to "Curse of the Frog Prince" except set the damage to the lich's id (178). The spell did indeed turn enemy units into liches instead of frogs.
The next step I suppose is to try and make the spell a ritual that targets commanders. Or at the very least a battle spell that targets the commander casting it.
Unfortunately here, I'm not exactly sure how to make self targeting spells. Not sure if it has something to do with precision and range or if it goes under the category of #spec (special abilities). I guess I'll toy around with some things and see if I make progress. The easiest solution I can think of here unless someone has some helpful wisdom to impart is simply for me to try copying an already existing self targeting ritual (teleport comes to mind) and then further modifying the spell so that it has the effects that turn the unit into the desired new unit.
Thanks once again for the continued help. If I can't get things working here, I'll check out the site posted by soyweiser.
Sadly I can't help with the Python stuff. No experience with working on sprites yet. The people on the Desura Forum might be of some help though.
Post by: E. Albright on December 13, 2015, 08:40:04 pm
Post by: Kagus on December 13, 2015, 08:40:33 pm
Heh, speaking of, I remember one time I had a pricey mage cast twiceborn and then go get assisted suicide from some local indies so he'd come back upkeep-free...
Naturally, the killing blow left him feebleminded and incapable of anything.
Post by: Micro102 on December 14, 2015, 04:13:04 am
Post by: Majestic7 on December 14, 2015, 05:22:48 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 14, 2015, 11:24:59 am
Post by: gman8181 on December 14, 2015, 12:09:21 pm
For battle spells, it's probably linked to the spell having no range and possibly the #spec 4194304 which sets the spell to only target friendly units.
Looks like the only way to work this out will be as battle only spells and not as rituals. Still better than nothing though. I'll try and get some more testing done with this sometime within the next few days and I'll share the results in case anyone here wants to make similar spells of their own somewhere down the line.
Also yeah, thanks for the replies but as E. Albright said, those are tags for changing specific units into other specific units. I don't believe you can use them in that way.
For example there's
#firstshape #secondshape #secondtmpshape #shapechange
These commands allow a unit to change shape depending on their hp values or as a command like with dragon pretenders. I don't think they'd have any effect with spells. Maybe with items but I'm really not sure. I suppose I could slap it on some item and see if it does anything. I'll try that as well when I'm testing the new spells to see if it has any effect.
Post by: EuchreJack on December 14, 2015, 09:42:16 pm
Oh yeah, another thing regarding the recent patch(es)... I also find it very amusing that they've added the "made of iron" tag to a lot of weapons, to indicate that they can be rusted by spells or by just being underwater for some time.
...and then they still kept in all the underwater units and nations that use those iron-based weapons and armors.
Yeah, I thought that was funny as well.
Post by: AlStar on December 15, 2015, 08:24:20 am
Maybe it's thematic that they like using rusted stuff?Oh yeah, another thing regarding the recent patch(es)... I also find it very amusing that they've added the "made of iron" tag to a lot of weapons, to indicate that they can be rusted by spells or by just being underwater for some time.
...and then they still kept in all the underwater units and nations that use those iron-based weapons and armors.
Yeah, I thought that was funny as well.
More likely it's him forgetting and/or getting lazy and not wanting to make a bunch of coral/bronze/whatever weaponry.
Post by: E. Albright on December 15, 2015, 10:13:40 am
Post by: Micro102 on December 16, 2015, 07:49:53 pm
How do you guys deal with games that get this tedious?
Post by: E. Albright on December 16, 2015, 08:04:07 pm
Post by: Kagus on December 16, 2015, 08:34:33 pm
Post by: gman8181 on December 16, 2015, 08:46:49 pm
Right now it doesn't always seem to work though. Almost like it's magic resistance negates. I'm going to go over the code one more time later to see if I accidentally included that but either way, the hardest part is pretty much done.
If anyone is interested in seeing the code, I'd be happy to post it here for usage in your own mods. It's a little messy at the moment but shouldn't be too hard to clean up or edit.
One thing that disappoints me about this game is that sometimes there is not an obvious winner, so you end up spending hours trying to win a game where one blob of soldiers and summoned creatures fight another blob of soldiers and summoned creatures. Micromanaging your 100 commanders and trying to find all the castles that you left on autoproduce that are eating up your money.
How do you guys deal with games that get this tedious?
Mmm I guess what E. Albright said plus all the other setting modifications.
My advice would be to look for games that cater to your preferences. If the late game grind is too much for you, then look for games with less players and specific conditions. Throne settings can drastically alter the game length. Decreasing research difficulty can allow the game you're playing to be short without preventing you from getting to use some of the more late game spells. If you lower resources, gold, and magic site frequency, then everyone is forced to field smaller armies which should reduce micro quite a bit.
You basically just need to find people who want to play the same way as you. Well, for multiplayer anyway.
I usually play single player games where I just toy around. If it's a single player game, you're free to pick whatever settings work best for you and you're also free to mess around with weird strategies that you couldn't get away with in multiplayer. Personally, I just find that pretty fun in itself. Especially with mods so you can tweak things more to your preferences. If a game starts to get tedious, I just end it and start a new one as a different nation or with a different strategy. It's pretty fun for me that way.
So, yup.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 17, 2015, 09:20:20 am
Go too far to the other side and you might find games ending anticlimatically. Getting that throne requirement just right is pretty important for a satisfying game.
Post by: PrimusRibbus on December 17, 2015, 01:00:17 pm
One thing that disappoints me about this game is that sometimes there is not an obvious winner, so you end up spending hours trying to win a game where one blob of soldiers and summoned creatures fight another blob of soldiers and summoned creatures. Micromanaging your 100 commanders and trying to find all the castles that you left on autoproduce that are eating up your money.
How do you guys deal with games that get this tedious?
It sounds like you're playing on too large of a map. I know it's tempting the make ludicrously huge maps (I'm guilty of doing that all the time in SP), but the larger the map the bigger the micro and the longer the game.
Also, like other people said, use thrones as the winning condition.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 17, 2015, 01:20:17 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 17, 2015, 01:32:39 pm
It sounds like you're playing on too large of a map. I know it's tempting the make ludicrously huge maps (I'm guilty of doing that all the time in SP), but the larger the map the bigger the micro and the longer the game.
Totally forgot the maps. For reference, the game and community at large seem to consider roughly 10 provinces per player to be small, ~15 per player is medium and ~20 per player is large.
I remember seeing some desura posts way back about newbies playing with much, much larger ratios and wondering how it all could be managed.
It's also possible for it to become a slog even with thrones, of course. It depends on how many you need to win and how hard it is to get enough of them.
Yeah. With say... 80% requirement you might as well be playing with 100%. Assuming equal throne distribution, controlling 80% of the thrones means you're controlling roughly 80% of the map. At that point it's pretty foregone conclusion.
Post by: Micro102 on December 17, 2015, 05:40:55 pm
On a side note, I am about to play a caelum game and one of their obvious flaws are that you have no way of stopping them from flying right into the enemy army and getting chewed up with their lower stats and your own troop's arrows. So I was wondering if it was possible to set the commanders to cast 5 spells, then retreat, causing all your units to retreat as well, a sort of it and run tactic. Does anyone know if they actually will cast 5 spells and retreat, or retreat normally? Or maybe to make one commander have 5 squads in formation to reduce their morale as much as possible (maybe that whip that decreases morale too) so they will route almost instantly? That way my many archers can get shots off and if confronted, can instantly retreat. Thoughts?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 17, 2015, 08:04:21 pm
On a side note, I am about to play a caelum game and one of their obvious flaws are that you have no way of stopping them from flying right into the enemy army and getting chewed up with their lower stats and your own troop's arrows.
I'm not entirely certain if it's been fixed or not, but setting your troops up in a line formation should make them advance forward normally instead of flying into melee. Though I would like to point out that most Caelum troops technically aren't much worse than most other nations. Their biggest problem is that they're size-3, which means that they have trouble concentrating their attacks and spreading damage out in larger fights. Hence why you need to focus on archery and evocations in larger battles.
Does anyone know if they actually will cast 5 spells and retreat, or retreat normally?
I'm almost entirely certain that that is how it works. They'll retreat after running through the script as you planned it.
Or maybe to make one commander have 5 squads in formation to reduce their morale as much as possible (maybe that whip that decreases morale too) so they will route almost instantly? That way my many archers can get shots off and if confronted, can instantly retreat.
That sounds like a terrible plan, honestly. Some spells force morale checks, so the enemy could capitalize on that to ruin your plans.
Post by: Micro102 on December 17, 2015, 08:23:02 pm
Does anyone know if they actually will cast 5 spells and retreat, or retreat normally?
I'm almost entirely certain that that is how it works. They'll retreat after running through the script as you planned it.Or maybe to make one commander have 5 squads in formation to reduce their morale as much as possible (maybe that whip that decreases morale too) so they will route almost instantly? That way my many archers can get shots off and if confronted, can instantly retreat.
That sounds like a terrible plan, honestly. Some spells force morale checks, so the enemy could capitalize on that to ruin your plans.
Well I won't need to test if my low morale idea if the retreating commanders thing works. I imagine that it will piss off opponents to no end to have an army of archers and mages throwing down freezing arrows and thunderbolts, then retreating after all that initial damage.
Post by: ArKFallen on December 17, 2015, 08:31:38 pm
Your army won't necessarily retreat into the same province IIRC(picks from all of your adjacent randomly) and if you have PD there will be a commander so your scattered troops won't route again from an incoming army.Does anyone know if they actually will cast 5 spells and retreat, or retreat normally?
I'm almost entirely certain that that is how it works. They'll retreat after running through the script as you planned it.Or maybe to make one commander have 5 squads in formation to reduce their morale as much as possible (maybe that whip that decreases morale too) so they will route almost instantly? That way my many archers can get shots off and if confronted, can instantly retreat.
That sounds like a terrible plan, honestly. Some spells force morale checks, so the enemy could capitalize on that to ruin your plans.
Well I won't need to test if my low morale idea if the retreating commanders thing works. I imagine that it will piss off opponents to no end to have an army of archers and mages throwing down freezing arrows and thunderbolts, then retreating after all that initial damage.
Post by: Micro102 on December 17, 2015, 08:53:28 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 17, 2015, 09:21:41 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 18, 2015, 12:49:24 am
Because it never shows up as an option. Shift-click on your target, and if you can raid you will. I'd love to say this is a place where it's helpful to remember to check the keyboard shortcuts via "?"; alas, however, that's no help in this particular case. You either know it (I wanna say it's in the manual, but I don't wanna go back and look) or you don't...Actually, it does show up. It works the same as "Move and patrol" or "Sneak and attack". Give the move order first, then it'll be in the orders menu. At least, that's how I recall it working. It may default to raiding on shift-click if the commander is not stealthy, though.
Post by: Micro102 on December 18, 2015, 02:17:15 am
Because it never shows up as an option. Shift-click on your target, and if you can raid you will. I'd love to say this is a place where it's helpful to remember to check the keyboard shortcuts via "?"; alas, however, that's no help in this particular case. You either know it (I wanna say it's in the manual, but I don't wanna go back and look) or you don't...Actually, it does show up. It works the same as "Move and patrol" or "Sneak and attack". Give the move order first, then it'll be in the orders menu. At least, that's how I recall it working. It may default to raiding on shift-click if the commander is not stealthy, though.
Already tried that, it doesn't work, shift clicking worked though. However I have come to learn that it is usually a useless tactic as your army can be foiled by a weak patrol and if anyone attacks that province while you're raiding, your supposedly stealthy units fight... It seems pointless.
Post by: E. Albright on December 18, 2015, 11:27:55 am
Post by: Shadowlord on December 18, 2015, 12:15:54 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 18, 2015, 02:17:34 pm
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on December 19, 2015, 05:48:38 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 19, 2015, 01:59:29 pm
Post by: Micro102 on December 23, 2015, 03:03:54 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 23, 2015, 03:07:37 am
I found an ancient ruin and got an event for either a mage to explore it or an adventurer to enter it. I have sent all sorts of mages and commanders to it but none can enter it. Anyone know what I have to do?I think it works on the basis of a %chance per turn to trigger an event - as long as you've got a mage or an adventurer in the province.
Post by: AlStar on December 23, 2015, 07:42:25 am
Got two artifacts (Dwarven Hammer and Mirror Mail), then got attacked by a cave drake. Mage lost, but I got to keep the loot.
Post by: Elfeater on December 26, 2015, 01:54:41 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 26, 2015, 02:15:01 pm
You probably actually want the one here (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2249&st=15), though. 0.9.3 is for dominions 3, the fork/port/whatever for dominions 4 appears to be up to 0.2.3.
Post by: Micro102 on December 26, 2015, 10:34:51 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 26, 2015, 11:31:05 pm
Post by: Micro102 on December 27, 2015, 05:45:29 am
Did they hack away for 50 turns straight? Attackers auto-rout at 50 turns, so unless they were berserk, they'd turn tail at that point.
Ah thank you.
Post by: BFEL on December 27, 2015, 01:18:06 pm
Did they hack away for 50 turns straight? Attackers auto-rout at 50 turns, so unless they were berserk, they'd turn tail at that point.Kinda makes me wonder what would happen if two Monuments ended up fighting at low magic levels. How long can the game go with two combatants that PHYSICALLY CANNOT rout, or do any damage to each other?
ULTIMATE STARE DOWN OF ULTIMATE DESTINY!
Post by: Kagus on December 27, 2015, 01:26:00 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 27, 2015, 01:54:35 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 27, 2015, 02:36:20 pm
...
... I will admit, I'm now imagining someone wishing up several (dozen) monoliths, splurging (more) gems on them to make them remote movement capable, and then dropping them all on someone's capital (preferably with an immobile pretender). "Rocks fall, everyone dies."
Post by: Shadowlord on December 27, 2015, 03:21:49 pm
You could just summon a Golem (30 pearls) and give it a starshine skullcap (10 pearls). It's mindless so it shouldn't retreat.
Or if it really must be immobile, cast Telestic Animation (5 pearls), and then empower the resulting H2 statue to S2 (80 pearls!), and then give it a starshine skullcap (10 pearls). There's no way that would work well, though. It would just get wtfpwned unless it only ran into a couple dudes and soul slayed them before they could get close.
Post by: E. Albright on December 27, 2015, 06:38:46 pm
Post by: Micro102 on December 30, 2015, 09:56:26 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 30, 2015, 10:10:49 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 31, 2015, 06:41:48 pm
Post by: Micro102 on January 02, 2016, 07:41:44 pm
My most recent game had the fastest Burden of Time I have ever seen cast, yet many turns later, after I got enough gems to cast a dispel with 33 extra gems, it fails! It just does not seem reasonable that the AI could get that many gems in such a short amount of time to resist such a huge dispel, and I just blew all my gems. Wtf are you suppose to do when it's too risky to try to dispel an enchantment, but if you don't then you will lose the game?
Post by: Frumple on January 02, 2016, 07:52:37 pm
Post by: C4lv1n on January 02, 2016, 07:59:08 pm
Throughout my entire playing of this game, I have shoveled gems into enchantments and dispels and have never dispelled an enemy's enchantment, yet have had mine dispelled.
My most recent game had the fastest Burden of Time I have ever seen cast, yet many turns later, after I got enough gems to cast a dispel with 33 extra gems, it fails! It just does not seem reasonable that the AI could get that many gems in such a short amount of time to resist such a huge dispel, and I just blew all my gems. Wtf are you suppose to do when it's too risky to try to dispel an enchantment, but if you don't then you will lose the game?
Depending on the nation (Ermor for example) If they spend a decent amount of time saving their income and converting non-death gems to death gems they can dump an extra 30-50 gems into the spell. For Ermor 30 extra gems is just 2 turns of not spending just the portion of income they start with. Less if they have done any level of site searching.
I play Ermor a lot (sorry not sorry)
Post by: Antioch on January 02, 2016, 08:08:30 pm
Because I feel that within a day I could design an interface that doesn't suck as hard as the one in Dominions.
All the potential the game has is ruined by a refusal of the makers to acknowledge the importance of a good user interface.
Does the game even have waypoints for move orders?
Post by: C4lv1n on January 02, 2016, 08:13:47 pm
You know why I don't like this game?
Because I feel that within a day I could design an interface that doesn't suck as hard as the one in Dominions.
All the potential the game has is ruined by a refusal of the makers to acknowledge the importance of a good user interface.
Does the game even have waypoints for move orders?
Have you played Dwarf Fortress?
In reality though, you're right. Everything seems like a hold over from the first game with only minor graphical and UI improvements.
Post by: Antioch on January 02, 2016, 08:24:43 pm
You know why I don't like this game?
Because I feel that within a day I could design an interface that doesn't suck as hard as the one in Dominions.
All the potential the game has is ruined by a refusal of the makers to acknowledge the importance of a good user interface.
Does the game even have waypoints for move orders?
Have you played Dwarf Fortress?
In reality though, you're right. Everything seems like a hold over from the first game with only minor graphical and UI improvements.
Let's face it, interface is a serious weakness in DF too, there are few people that seriously play DF without third party management tools.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 02, 2016, 08:41:47 pm
I can't deal with DF's military screens now, with or without the third party tools.
The only real problems I have with Dom4 are things like not being able to select 20 mages and set their script orders on the army management screen at once instead of having to do them all individually.
Also not remembering where I targeted spells last turn if the reports don't tell me, but the game uses so little resources that running two copies at once, with one loading the previous turn, is no huhu.
Post by: Micro102 on January 02, 2016, 08:45:27 pm
Kill the caster?
I have very little access to commander assassination abilities and their capital is too far away for me to reach without going to war with 2 other nations. The best access I have are some indie astral mages for mind hunting but they keep going feeble minded. Even if I had some other methods I can just imagine the dozens upon dozens of mound kings they have stored up.
From what I can tell, the devs never bothered to set the AI to see this enchantment as a threat, so they ignore it and make it impossible for the human to win. Wasn't this also a huge problem in Dom 3? Seems like something that should be fixed.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 02, 2016, 09:06:34 pm
You know why I don't like this game?
Because I feel that within a day I could design an interface that doesn't suck as hard as the one in Dominions.
All the potential the game has is ruined by a refusal of the makers to acknowledge the importance of a good user interface.
Does the game even have waypoints for move orders?
Have you played Dwarf Fortress?
In reality though, you're right. Everything seems like a hold over from the first game with only minor graphical and UI improvements.
Let's face it, interface is a serious weakness in DF too, there are few people that seriously play DF without third party management tools.
Eh, I find Dwarf Fortress easy enough. It's the Third Party management tools I don't understand.
Kill the caster?
I have very little access to commander assassination abilities and their capital is too far away for me to reach without going to war with 2 other nations. The best access I have are some indie astral mages for mind hunting but they keep going feeble minded. Even if I had some other methods I can just imagine the dozens upon dozens of mound kings they have stored up.
From what I can tell, the devs never bothered to set the AI to see this enchantment as a threat, so they ignore it and make it impossible for the human to win. Wasn't this also a huge problem in Dom 3? Seems like something that should be fixed.
Uh, have you mentioned what nation you are playing? Can't give good advice without knowing that.
In my limited single player experience, its all about thugging. Unlike a human opponent, the AI will never figure out how to kill off your thugs and Supercombatants, so they can just tear through the masses of units that the AI gets to make up for its lack of ability.
The AI and peace is definitely a tricky thing. Bascially, each AI nation is at peace with the player until either the AI nation declares war on the player or the player attacks the AI nation. Then the AI is at war with the Player FOREVER. So I understand your reluctance to declare war.
That being said, provincial defenses supported by a small force of national troops and a mage can generally hold back the AI nations forever, so the waves of attacks aren't as big a threat as they may initially appear. Plus, whatever nation is wasting its gold on trying to assault your provinces is going to be weak to its AI nation neighbors, who will probably do the bulk of the conquering for you.
But again, it all depends on your nation. Some actually get worse when they try to use their nation's troops, lol. And some have mages that should never see a battlefield (although most magic paths bring something to battle, even at Level 1).
Post by: Shadowlord on January 02, 2016, 09:43:56 pm
Nature and/or earth is ideally suited to fighting ma ermor, I think.
MA ulm also, with their priest smiths' iron blizzards.
Another way to remove a global spell is to cart a new one when there are already five active - a random one will be replaced, but since that's only a 20% chance of erasing the spell you want, it's not something I have really ever gambled on.
Post by: E. Albright on January 02, 2016, 10:31:53 pm
In reality though, you're right. Everything seems like a hold over from the first game with only minor graphical and UI improvements.
Ha. You think that, but if you go back and play Dom1 or Dom2 now, you'll change your mind soon enough. I went back and did so in the spring, I think, and it was almost painful. The look and feel hasn't changed much since Dom2, and hasn't changed entirely since Dom1, but the UI has seen meaningful quality-of-life improvements with every iteration, and graphics have improved slowly but steadily. Definitely evolutionary changes and not revolutionary ones, but changes have consistently occurred.
Eh, I find Dwarf Fortress easy enough. It's the Third Party management tools I don't understand.
Same. Sadly. Back in my day, get off my lawn, etc.
The AI and peace is definitely a tricky thing. Bascially, each AI nation is at peace with the player until either the AI nation declares war on the player or the player attacks the AI nation. Then the AI is at war with the Player FOREVER. So I understand your reluctance to declare war.
It depends on the provocation, actually. If the AI starts the war and you don't aggressively pursue it, sometimes it'll quietly revert back to peace. It helps if you share a border with strong (25+) PD so it doesn't immediately re-start the war, though. Strong border PD is the #1 way to prolong peace with the AI.
Post by: Micro102 on January 02, 2016, 11:36:25 pm
You know why I don't like this game?
Because I feel that within a day I could design an interface that doesn't suck as hard as the one in Dominions.
All the potential the game has is ruined by a refusal of the makers to acknowledge the importance of a good user interface.
Does the game even have waypoints for move orders?
Have you played Dwarf Fortress?
In reality though, you're right. Everything seems like a hold over from the first game with only minor graphical and UI improvements.
Let's face it, interface is a serious weakness in DF too, there are few people that seriously play DF without third party management tools.
Eh, I find Dwarf Fortress easy enough. It's the Third Party management tools I don't understand.Kill the caster?
I have very little access to commander assassination abilities and their capital is too far away for me to reach without going to war with 2 other nations. The best access I have are some indie astral mages for mind hunting but they keep going feeble minded. Even if I had some other methods I can just imagine the dozens upon dozens of mound kings they have stored up.
From what I can tell, the devs never bothered to set the AI to see this enchantment as a threat, so they ignore it and make it impossible for the human to win. Wasn't this also a huge problem in Dom 3? Seems like something that should be fixed.
Uh, have you mentioned what nation you are playing? Can't give good advice without knowing that.
In my limited single player experience, its all about thugging. Unlike a human opponent, the AI will never figure out how to kill off your thugs and Supercombatants, so they can just tear through the masses of units that the AI gets to make up for its lack of ability.
The AI and peace is definitely a tricky thing. Bascially, each AI nation is at peace with the player until either the AI nation declares war on the player or the player attacks the AI nation. Then the AI is at war with the Player FOREVER. So I understand your reluctance to declare war.
That being said, provincial defenses supported by a small force of national troops and a mage can generally hold back the AI nations forever, so the waves of attacks aren't as big a threat as they may initially appear. Plus, whatever nation is wasting its gold on trying to assault your provinces is going to be weak to its AI nation neighbors, who will probably do the bulk of the conquering for you.
But again, it all depends on your nation. Some actually get worse when they try to use their nation's troops, lol. And some have mages that should never see a battlefield (although most magic paths bring something to battle, even at Level 1).
I am playing as MA Ulm. I know my army would obliterate them 1v1, but I was already at war and going to war with 2 more mighty AI while trying to take out Ermor seemed like a very very bad idea.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 02, 2016, 11:53:15 pm
Post by: Micro102 on January 03, 2016, 04:33:38 am
You can probably destroy them with a couple iron angel SCs kitted out for crowd control (provided they carry a supply item). If you have earth blood deep well up, and hammers for your smiths, you can pop those out and kit them up ridiculously fast. The learning curve there is probably in figuring out what will actually make them survive and be effective against your enemies.
I'm not following. How would A couple of iron angles let me reach the enchantment caster inside their capital?
Post by: Shadowlord on January 03, 2016, 06:16:07 am
The shield of gleaming gold is normally amazing against melee troops, but awe doesn't work at all on mindless units, which is why I suggested the vine shield instead, since that does.
You have assassins, though, so you could have some of those carry bags of wine and gate cleavers and sneak along with the angels (although since they'll have to siege to help bring down the walls, they'll still be vulnerable eventually), while your angels carry actual combat gear. I don't imagine you have any winged shoes to give them to let them fly to keep up with the angels, though.
If you've empowered any smiths with blood magic (this needs B2), you could make a black heart for an iron angel to turn it into an assassin, but it'd need to be made stealthy somehow first, though. There is an item that gives stealthiness, I think, but I don't remember what item it is.
Post by: Jilladilla on January 03, 2016, 10:38:47 am
There is an item that gives stealthiness, I think, but I don't remember what item it is.
Shademail Haubergeon, Death 2 Earth 1 Paths, construction 6 research. Protection is a bit low for frontline combat though (13). No fatigue or defense malus however.
Post by: E. Albright on January 03, 2016, 11:27:32 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 03, 2016, 11:35:06 am
Additionally, the multitude of freespawn shitty commanders means that it is rather unlikely to be able to target that specific one who was responsible for the global.
It seems at best a situational strategy.
Post by: E. Albright on January 03, 2016, 01:13:39 pm
Post by: Frumple on January 03, 2016, 01:52:25 pm
Shademail Haubergeon, Death 2 Earth 1 Paths, construction 6 research. Protection is a bit low for frontline combat though (13). No fatigue or defense malus however.Const 4, actually. Probably the most fun thing to do with it is to stealth S4 casters along with your armies when the enemy is fond of mind hunt :V
Bonus points if they're being cautious and sending in scouts or whatev' to check army composition before starting the astral artillery up.
The only real problems I have with Dom4 are things like not being able to select 20 mages and set their script orders on the army management screen at once instead of having to do them all individually.Not a complete fix for that, but you are aware you can save order sets, right? Ctrl+1-9 (or 1-0, don't quite remember) to save, then mouse over the change order thing and press the number. Still sorta' have to assign orders individually, but a mouse over and 1 button press is a lot less painful than going through the whole process. Can save a lot of time when you're mostly scripting the same things.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 03, 2016, 02:30:21 pm
Post by: Cruxador on January 04, 2016, 07:59:54 pm
The first post is here: https://cruxador.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/another-aar-stalewarriors/ (https://cruxador.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/another-aar-stalewarriors/)
You can see a list of posts on this game, independent of other unrelated posts, here: https://cruxador.wordpress.com/category/stalewarriors/ (https://cruxador.wordpress.com/category/stalewarriors/)
Because I feel that within a day I could design an interface that doesn't suck as hard as the one in Dominions.Do it then. The devs are pretty open to using community-made stuff. Though personally, I don't really see the problem anywhere aside from the messager, which stays that way because if you mention it on their forums, you'll get a bunch of people telling you how dumb you are for using it in the first place.
Quote
Does the game even have waypoints for move orders?No. That's not an interface thing though, it's a feature. If we're talking features, it would also be nice to automate scouting and site searching, those are like three quarters of the time that my turns take in the mid/late game if there's no war on. Problem is, the automation would have to be good enough to prevent you from just needing to do it yourself anyway.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 04, 2016, 11:18:50 pm
Not sure if people care, but my AAR is still going. It's been moderately popular on other sites in the past, so maybe you folks like it too.
The first post is here: https://cruxador.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/another-aar-stalewarriors/ (https://cruxador.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/another-aar-stalewarriors/)
You can see a list of posts on this game, independent of other unrelated posts, here: https://cruxador.wordpress.com/category/stalewarriors/ (https://cruxador.wordpress.com/category/stalewarriors/)Because I feel that within a day I could design an interface that doesn't suck as hard as the one in Dominions.Do it then. The devs are pretty open to using community-made stuff. Though personally, I don't really see the problem anywhere aside from the messager, which stays that way because if you mention it on their forums, you'll get a bunch of people telling you how dumb you are for using it in the first place.QuoteDoes the game even have waypoints for move orders?No. That's not an interface thing though, it's a feature. If we're talking features, it would also be nice to automate scouting and site searching, those are like three quarters of the time that my turns take in the mid/late game if there's no war on. Problem is, the automation would have to be good enough to prevent you from just needing to do it yourself anyway.
I'm no programmer, but would a script to send scouts and mages to unknown areas, and have the mages site search when they arrive, be pretty easy actually?
If no scout report, Then send scout.
Mage of x magic path: If no magic site search path x, then Goto province and site search.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 04, 2016, 11:33:07 pm
In the end, it'd be a ton of work to implement for something that most people would probably rather just do manually because they wouldn't trust the AI to not fuck it up due to it not having any way to predict what is coming in the future.
Post by: Kagus on January 05, 2016, 01:47:12 am
At the very least, the game HAS made it possible to set up monthly casting of site-searching spells, so it will target a new, unsearched, owned province every turn instead of just re-checking the same one.
AND, let us not forget the big change from Dominions 1, in that you can just click on the province you want to search instead of manually typing in that province's ID code...
There's really only one thing I liked and miss from Dom1, and that's the dynamic terrain map. Actually being able to *see* the world change because of the provincial scales was really, really cool.
Post by: Majestic7 on January 05, 2016, 06:38:23 am
Post by: Cruxador on January 05, 2016, 11:50:03 pm
I'm no programmer, but would a script to send scouts and mages to unknown areas, and have the mages site search when they arrive, be pretty easy actually?The problem isn't to make any at all, the problem is that if you don't make it good, anyone who uses it is at a disadvantage. That means that a scout needs some manner of deciding what's important, including both what's important enough to be in, and what's important enough to be near. So they need to assess what nations are probable threats and what areas are probably chokepoints and where there might be troops and battles that you'd like to see. You need some manner of prioritization. "Travel to nearest unrevealed land" might not be very useful, depending on the amount of fucks you give.
If no scout report, Then send scout.
Mage of x magic path: If no magic site search path x, then Goto province and site search.
Mages are more of a problem, because you need to consider the efficiency of travel, provinces that are searched in some but not all of the paths a mage has, and areas of potentially elevated danger.
Post by: Antioch on January 06, 2016, 07:50:23 am
Mutable terrain is awesome but it's a thorny problem with the map system we have. Of the two, I'd rather keep the map system. That said, the random maps do things like sprinkle trees on provinces that should be forest, and if a map maker could add a set of tree sprites (and if undefined, elect to use vanilla ones or disable visual mutability) it would definitely be cool. I'd like it if we could make custom forts and temples and thrones for different maps too, with option to make special ones for special provinces.I'm no programmer, but would a script to send scouts and mages to unknown areas, and have the mages site search when they arrive, be pretty easy actually?The problem isn't to make any at all, the problem is that if you don't make it good, anyone who uses it is at a disadvantage. That means that a scout needs some manner of deciding what's important, including both what's important enough to be in, and what's important enough to be near. So they need to assess what nations are probable threats and what areas are probably chokepoints and where there might be troops and battles that you'd like to see. You need some manner of prioritization. "Travel to nearest unrevealed land" might not be very useful, depending on the amount of fucks you give.
If no scout report, Then send scout.
Mage of x magic path: If no magic site search path x, then Goto province and site search.
Mages are more of a problem, because you need to consider the efficiency of travel, provinces that are searched in some but not all of the paths a mage has, and areas of potentially elevated danger.
And this is why the game badly needs an order queue to give orders turns in advance. Giving a lengthy search path order at once is a lot less tedious that having to update the order every turn. Does the strategic situation change as to warrant another order? Fine go ahead, no problem.
And instantly you have the same amount of micromanagement control, but vastly less tedious.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 07, 2016, 04:07:01 pm
Agreed, although the current UI makes me cringe at how an order queue would most likely be implemented. It would almost certainly, on the first iteration, be harder to queue orders than just issue new orders each turn.Mutable terrain is awesome but it's a thorny problem with the map system we have. Of the two, I'd rather keep the map system. That said, the random maps do things like sprinkle trees on provinces that should be forest, and if a map maker could add a set of tree sprites (and if undefined, elect to use vanilla ones or disable visual mutability) it would definitely be cool. I'd like it if we could make custom forts and temples and thrones for different maps too, with option to make special ones for special provinces.I'm no programmer, but would a script to send scouts and mages to unknown areas, and have the mages site search when they arrive, be pretty easy actually?The problem isn't to make any at all, the problem is that if you don't make it good, anyone who uses it is at a disadvantage. That means that a scout needs some manner of deciding what's important, including both what's important enough to be in, and what's important enough to be near. So they need to assess what nations are probable threats and what areas are probably chokepoints and where there might be troops and battles that you'd like to see. You need some manner of prioritization. "Travel to nearest unrevealed land" might not be very useful, depending on the amount of fucks you give.
If no scout report, Then send scout.
Mage of x magic path: If no magic site search path x, then Goto province and site search.
Mages are more of a problem, because you need to consider the efficiency of travel, provinces that are searched in some but not all of the paths a mage has, and areas of potentially elevated danger.
And this is why the game badly needs an order queue to give orders turns in advance. Giving a lengthy search path order at once is a lot less tedious that having to update the order every turn. Does the strategic situation change as to warrant another order? Fine go ahead, no problem.
And instantly you have the same amount of micromanagement control, but vastly less tedious.
Post by: BFEL on January 08, 2016, 08:20:15 pm
11 mages, each casting Summon Earth Elemental, set up to do it 3 times.
That SHOULD come out to 33 gems right?
So could someone explain why it cost FOUR TIMES THAT MUCH?
I rewatched the battle in question and it only lasted 4 turns, so at worst it should have cost 44 gems, but it ended up leaving me short 132 of the fucking things!
Did...DID THEY *EMPOWER* THE GODDAMN SUMMON SPELLS? THE SPELLS THAT *CANNOT* BENEFIT FROM THAT?
BFEL AM CONFUSE.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 08, 2016, 08:32:11 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 08, 2016, 08:55:17 pm
Number of gems = [cost per cast] x [times I plan to cast] + [?? gotta fix that fatigue]
Post by: BFEL on January 08, 2016, 09:02:29 pm
Will reinvigorating items help this at all?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 08, 2016, 09:13:24 pm
Post by: BFEL on January 08, 2016, 09:16:06 pm
At 100 fatigue a summon? They wouldn't help much. Forging Earth Boots and using Summon Earthpower is probably your best bet to manage fatigue and gems. Assuming that you're using E2 mages to spam Earth Elementals, that'll get them up to E4 and should let them suffer only 50 fatigue per summon. You'll have to have a scout or something following your army so that you can ration out gems, but I think that that should work. I would certainly test that out first before using it.Thanks, I'll do that.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 08, 2016, 09:18:24 pm
Post by: Frumple on January 08, 2016, 09:48:27 pm
I vaguely recall some undead shenanigans along those lines -- conversion into souless -- but from what I remember most of them don't really stick around. Wondering if there's something out there that can actually reliably pull the trick to build up a chaff horde.
Post by: Kagus on January 08, 2016, 11:48:50 pm
Actually, I can't think of any specific units that do that... There are various enchantments or dominion effects that will provide a similar effect of "your unit A turns into my unit B", but I at least don't remember any units that are specifically "contagious" in that way.
Doppelgangers were mean bastards... Witches in general have some pretty hilarious stuff available to them, and on forested maps they just cackle and spew things everywhere.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2016, 11:56:35 pm
I've done the enslave thing with Kailasa's mages though, without communions. I really only needed one banner of the northern star, and a clam of pearls for each S2 mage (for Power of the Spheres, after which they were S4 for the battle). Any mages in the army that didn't have clams of pearls spammed soul slay instead. They were super-effective (combined with troops in front, of course, which came out mostly unharmed).
There's also the tartarian chains, but I've never seen their mind control effect trigger (because whatever they hit always died instead) - but I was putting them on things like iron angels or marble oracles, so they had tons of str and att. If you had shitty str but high pen, maybe you could actually control someone with them. Probably not the best plan, though.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 09, 2016, 12:25:04 am
Believe it or not, but Conquest of Elysium was/is even more unbalanced than Dominions...They both have the same problem where once you reach the end game some factions can enter combat with stuff that will stomp other factions regardless of relative resource count.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2016, 12:37:07 am
Giants with frost aura for example. Or troops which are fireball-throwing demons which turn into ethereal spirit forms if they "die," making them nigh-impossible to kill without massed magic (or fire bless).
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 09, 2016, 12:56:02 am
I do feel that while the asymmetric factions kinda make the game, there could have been a bit more... restraint when it came to some of the gameplay features.
Post by: Micro102 on January 09, 2016, 10:10:41 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 09, 2016, 11:17:44 am
Speaking of CoE, I played the 3rd one and it felt like a small slice of dominions pie. Is it really just a smaller game, or did I miss large amounts of content?You missed the Demilich, that would become a pretender in Dominions 4. He's awesome.
And lots of other content, although content is probably all that you missed.
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2016, 11:23:02 am
That's a problem in the beginning of the game too, especially EA. :V
Giants with frost aura for example. Or troops which are fireball-throwing demons which turn into ethereal spirit forms if they "die," making them nigh-impossible to kill without massed magic (or fire bless).
I never really managed to get Yomi to work out all that well for me, honestly... The demons are ludicrously expensive, and although the chaos recruitment thing helps, I'm pretty sure that only has an effect on the "down payment", not the upkeep. And the upkeep will quickly soar to very unmanageable levels with a few troops... Also they can't hit a goddamn thing with those fireballs, haha.
When I *do* make them, I generally only go for Ao-Oni (which are absolute BEASTS in melee) and the, ah... Whatever the little ones are called. The little guys are basically the greatest lance catchers in the game and have ridiculous strength for their size, so they can actually smack down the expensive troops that're used to send them from form A to form B.
I've been trying desperately to find a strategy of bootstrapping them into blood magic, because I'm pretty sure Yomi's national spells can target non-oni demons, and having a horde of berserked, barkskinned imps sounds like a fun time to me.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 09, 2016, 12:19:36 pm
Speaking of CoE, I played the 3rd one and it felt like a small slice of dominions pie. Is it really just a smaller game, or did I miss large amounts of content?You missed the Demilich, that would become a pretender in Dominions 4. He's awesome.
Is he? I've tried him a bit, but I've never been able to get him to teleport to where I wanted him too, he'd always teleport to a random spot, even when the spot I wanted him to go to was filled with dead bodies. That lack of control (along with no other way to move) really ruins the demilich for me. It seems like a huge downgrade from the super awesome lich.
I think I stopped using the demilich after one time where I tried to move him to a spot with 200+ bodies, and instead he ended up like 1/5 of the map away in a dragon lair, which killed him and took my magic items, and then when he respawned I tried again, and he landed in the dragon lair again.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2016, 01:17:03 pm
Anyone know what's up with that?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 09, 2016, 02:13:30 pm
I have a ghost king pretender in an MP game, sitting in 9 candles. He's spawned/attracted only one ghost since breaking out of imprisonment. It's turn 65 now. 3 years would be 36 turns? So it's been roughly 30 turns that he's been free, and he's been in high dominion provinces the entire time.Answer: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=1987 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=1987)
Anyone know what's up with that?
Summary - The chance is just really low. Seems relatively easy to mod, though.
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2016, 02:21:18 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2016, 02:24:44 pm
Edit:
Does anyone have any idea why this would happen?
Spoiler: No nation choice in play nation (click to show/hide)
Edit #2:
I searched the desura forums some more and finally hit a combination of words that found an answer. Apparently it's a weird bug that hasn't been fixed, but can be worked around by making sure the mod is loaded, then hitting Create and esc before attempting to load the game. :-\
Edit #3:
And got "bad neighbor" after choosing the nation. Even after reuploading the map. Which works fine in SP. (It's tyrande)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 09, 2016, 07:39:37 pm
It really is a smaller game. However, CoE also has a lot of "hidden" content, like special rare encounters and interactions between some units and map sites. For the most part, however, it's just smaller and shorter.Yomi has to treat their troops like a levy. None of them cost much resources so just hire them all the moment you need them.That's a problem in the beginning of the game too, especially EA. :V
Giants with frost aura for example. Or troops which are fireball-throwing demons which turn into ethereal spirit forms if they "die," making them nigh-impossible to kill without massed magic (or fire bless).
I never really managed to get Yomi to work out all that well for me, honestly... The demons are ludicrously expensive, and although the chaos recruitment thing helps, I'm pretty sure that only has an effect on the "down payment", not the upkeep. And the upkeep will quickly soar to very unmanageable levels with a few troops... Also they can't hit a goddamn thing with those fireballs, haha.
Post by: Kagus on January 09, 2016, 09:32:48 pm
Post by: Frumple on January 10, 2016, 08:28:11 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 10, 2016, 08:59:39 pm
Heeeey. Someone remind me, for disciple games, is there any way to filter things so each team is under a single flag/color?... I mean, it would be an easy mod.
You could even have it be a custom flag/color scheme rather than a vanilla one.
Post by: BFEL on January 15, 2016, 06:54:51 pm
HOW DO I MAKE THEM USE THE SPELLS I WANT THEM TO USE AND NOTHING MORE?
Post by: Culise on January 15, 2016, 07:34:26 pm
Ok so now I turned on conservative casting and THEY REFUSE TO USE THE SPELLS I TOLD THEM TO USE.Which spells? Do they have the paths without gem empowerment? (Shouldn't be affected by turning on conservative casting, but...) Is there a range issue? (They'll go off-script if a scripted spell has no valid targets in range.) Did anything change item-wise or path-wise? (See paths) Are they hitting 100 fatigue? (No gem empowerment means lower paths means less/no fatigue reduction.)
HOW DO I MAKE THEM USE THE SPELLS I WANT THEM TO USE AND NOTHING MORE?
EDIT: Ah, just glanced up the thread. If you're still having problems with Summon Earth Elementals, that answers most of the questions as: Presumably (assuming you took USEC's advice and used Earth Boots to hit base E3 plus Earth Power for E4/Reinvig), No, Presumably not, and Probably. If they're scripted to do so but they're not casting in the first place, it does sound like something's blocking them them from doing it, though. I'm not sure...
Post by: BFEL on January 15, 2016, 07:59:24 pm
I decided to just give a few mages most of the gems and conserve them while errybody else gets to go crazy with a small amount.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 15, 2016, 08:15:12 pm
Post by: Frumple on January 15, 2016, 09:39:21 pm
What I'd say is most likely is that you're running into that problem where the script encounters an enemy it doesn't consider worth doing it's thing against and throwing everything to the wayside. That can happen with gem-using spells, iirc. Forget what the breakpoints and whatnot are, but I'm faiiirly sure that's a thing that happens. Try throwing the casters against a particularly sizable force and seeing if it works.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 16, 2016, 04:18:09 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on January 31, 2016, 02:23:48 pm
Post by: BFEL on January 31, 2016, 02:43:25 pm
I am suddenly upset by lack of plague doctor character. Gaping hole in game design.Gaping hole in YOUR MOM.....
BFEL has not slept yet today.
Post by: Frumple on January 31, 2016, 02:44:10 pm
I coulda' sworn bogarus or somethin' had similar critters too, though, just... without the beak hat.
E: Oops, indeed.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 31, 2016, 02:46:49 pm
Quote
http://a mod
Oops?
Post by: Kagus on January 31, 2016, 03:47:47 pm
Also nations focused around the fire-water and earth-blood combos.
Post by: Frumple on January 31, 2016, 04:26:18 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 31, 2016, 06:48:55 pm
You can mod in catapult/arcing fire units fairly easily, iirc. Would really be mostly an issue of changing their attack/attack sprite and giving them long range -- the regular arrow trajectories work well enough for the effect. They're not used very often -- I think about the closest thing to them are some of the giant nations and their boulder throwers -- but the mechanics for it are there. Easy de-crew would just be one of those second shape thingies, akin to the oni, where the first form is flimsy and the second isn't.
I thought I saw catapults in a mod somewhere, but that was likely for Dom3. The Boulder Throwers provide the perfect animation.
Post by: E. Albright on January 31, 2016, 06:54:36 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 31, 2016, 07:05:31 pm
There are sprites in the files for catapults, ballistas, and trebuchets, but they're only used in CoE.
OH, That's where I saw them!
Post by: ThtblovesDF on January 31, 2016, 07:06:01 pm
E: That mod a few posts back - he missspelled the German in it, so he doesn't have "[be]loved by death" soldiers, but instead has "loved to death" [kinky] soldiers. *sensible chuckle*
Post by: Kagus on January 31, 2016, 08:01:49 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 01, 2016, 12:04:44 am
I am suddenly upset by lack of plague doctor character. Gaping hole in game design.They're a bit late for the game's time period.
I always wanted something with siege engines, like in-battle units that provided a siege bonus and could also, like, shoot long-range fireballs or boulders.EA Agartha might be relevant to your interests. Their stone hurlers are exactly this, and are sacred so you can soup them up (though I wouldn't consider it an optimal strategy) and their mages do these things but magically, and are also quite good. Mages in general (and evokers in particular) tend to take the battefield role of artillery and do it better than any siege weapons from antiquity through the high middle ages, so it makes sense that they're not really a thing. Would be pretty easy to mod in if you wanted to, though.
Post by: Micro102 on February 01, 2016, 07:48:45 am
Post by: Kagus on February 01, 2016, 07:49:09 am
As far as "making sense" goes, there are also plenty of low-magic nations like Ulm who would conceivably want to try and find a useful alternative to flashy battlefield mages, if we're talking thematic reasoning here. I mean, hell, LA Agartha has suicide zombies. A fireball cannon isn't that much of a stretch.
Post by: Frumple on February 01, 2016, 10:13:09 am
'Course, blood doesn't exactly bring much to the argathan table (except blood stones, anyway), but still... maybe a disciples game with a blood-capable subordinate leaning on your god for heavy rituals/forging?
Post by: E. Albright on February 01, 2016, 10:37:37 am
Post by: Frumple on February 01, 2016, 11:57:17 am
Isn't there some kind of unit that has a ranged rock-like attack that hits a full square? My memory hasn't completely borked on me, has it?
Though, with the fire/death bless, if you've got an AoE weapon, will it effect the full thing or just the main hit?
Post by: Karlito on February 01, 2016, 12:03:59 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 01, 2016, 12:52:00 pm
Their AI just never works the way you'd expect/want them to, and even then it's difficult to find a bless that really helps.For the AI, you can set them to fire, it's just that the range is really short so they have to be pretty much on top of the enemy for anything to work, and as Agartha you usually want to be further back. A line of blessed HP-bags up front with stone throwers behind them is a substantial battle force. It's not really viable in actual play, since it's expensive as all get-out (and vastly inferior to olms+chaff at similar gold expenditure and no bless) but there's always single player.
Does fire/death blesses even effect boulders? Those or air would probably be about it. Well... actually, blood would help, too, for the strength boost, wouldn't it? I could sorta' see a blood bless with a couple strength of giant (or whatever) casters sitting in the back line bumping their range up.F9BxAx would be the classic bless, inasmuch as there is a classic bless for such a fringe strategy. Blood helps for range, but the range calculation is not very generous. In my opinion it should be STR/2, not STR/3 to make them viable. Agartha has a good set of options anyway, since the cave patch, but it would be nice if some of the older options worked a bit better.
'Course, blood doesn't exactly bring much to the argathan table (except blood stones, anyway), but still... maybe a disciples game with a blood-capable subordinate leaning on your god for heavy rituals/forging?
Blood Stones are a substantial advantage, and having access to them is potentially worth the small amount of blood dabbling it takes to get them if you want the bless anyway.
Aside from fire not affecting ice weapons, fire/death blesses affect pretty much everything.Not mind blast, which is pretty significant. If it did, Olms with F9 would be lethal as all hell. Or D9, since Agartha likes big D a lot anyway.
Post by: Shadowlord on February 01, 2016, 02:33:53 pm
Post by: Frumple on February 01, 2016, 04:49:07 pm
I think some of the Dom3 balance mods gave thrown boulders an AoE attack.... y'know, it's very possible that's where I remember it from. Would make sense, I did play D3 with one or two of 'em a ways back, and never really had a need/interest in using boulder throwers (pale one or giant) in D4, so... yeah.
Someone should bring that back >_>
Post by: Kagus on February 01, 2016, 05:47:34 pm
For the AI, you can set them to fire, it's just that the range is really short so they have to be pretty much on top of the enemy for anything to work, and as Agartha you usually want to be further back. A line of blessed HP-bags up front with stone throwers behind them is a substantial battle force. It's not really viable in actual play, since it's expensive as all get-out (and vastly inferior to olms+chaff at similar gold expenditure and no bless) but there's always single player.Yeah, but if you don't have a line of units in front of the throwers they'll occasionally just eschew throwing at all to go and punch things. And you don't really *want* anything standing in front of them, because they're still Agartha so their aim is still pretty atrocious... Sometimes even with a front line, a few of the hurlers will walk out and punch things without ever throwing a rock.
Also bear in mind that the extra strength applies to the damage dealt, since they're throwing weapons. It's not much, but it's something to take note of... I tried doing blood bless on the Xibalban Muuch dart throwers, but they never really managed to do anything all that well even with the bless.Does fire/death blesses even effect boulders? Those or air would probably be about it. Well... actually, blood would help, too, for the strength boost, wouldn't it? I could sorta' see a blood bless with a couple strength of giant (or whatever) casters sitting in the back line bumping their range up.Blood helps for range, but the range calculation is not very generous. In my opinion it should be STR/2, not STR/3 to make them viable. Agartha has a good set of options anyway, since the cave patch, but it would be nice if some of the older options worked a bit better.
Blood Stones are a substantial advantage, and having access to them is potentially worth the small amount of blood dabbling it takes to get them if you want the bless anyway.
And yeah, I think fire/death apply to ranged attacks now, including boulders... At least fire was changed to work with ranged.
Generally, the times when I try to mess around with EA Agartha, I end up torching the countryside with awful death scales, which eats into the potential of taking blood. Agartha just manages death so easily, since most of their nationals are either not worth recruiting, throwaway, or sacred and non-eating. Supply and upkeep isn't really an issue for the few living troops you'll have, and they have such neat conjuration spells to fill out the ranks with more foodless, payless warriors.
Or D9, since Agartha likes big D a lot anyway.Heh, heh. "Big D". Heh.
Post by: Cruxador on February 03, 2016, 03:54:20 pm
Agartha just manages death so easily, since most of their nationals are either not worth recruiting, throwaway, or sacred and non-eating.Heavy death scales on a nation where everything worth recruiting is expensive as hell but better in large numbers, and where your usual early game plan is to take your time building up?
I really don't see it.
Post by: Shadowlord on February 03, 2016, 05:22:21 pm
(My last ma agartha pretender was a great mother with N9E4, dom6, O1 P1 H2 G1 L2 M2.)
Post by: Cruxador on February 03, 2016, 06:09:56 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on February 04, 2016, 02:40:06 am
Also fighting against abysians kinda sucks.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 04, 2016, 04:46:41 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on February 04, 2016, 03:41:58 pm
Meanwhile, you can field some mediocre troops and fat old hungry for gold guys in togas.Aeternus Ermor dominatus non, amices.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 04, 2016, 03:55:10 pm
Post by: Kagus on February 05, 2016, 05:01:07 am
And then those old guys with togas combine their powers and drop fire storms and bolts of dark energies on the attacking monsters. Being a giant isn't that helpful when you're paralyzed and on fire after all.
Just more fuel to burn
Post by: Cruxador on February 05, 2016, 12:50:25 pm
FIRE SPITTING GIANTS WHO BECOME ETHEREAL MONSTERS SFTER DEATH, OR DAMN MAGMAMAN.Both kind of mediocre for reasons pertaining to gold and mage access.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 05, 2016, 01:57:12 pm
Also I believe that I have found the most metal event in Dominions: "A handful of black onis were molesting a group of red onis and refused to stop. Not until Tsunekage slew one of the black onis and ate his heart did they stop. Another group of red onis witnessed this event and joined your army." Unfortunately you need a specific Yomi hero and use the 50 gold and 25 gold onis together to get the event so the chances of it activating are pretty damn low.
Post by: Cruxador on February 05, 2016, 03:29:03 pm
A handful of black onis were molesting a group of red onis and refused to stop.Daily life in Dominions, eh?
Post by: Culise on February 22, 2016, 09:13:22 am
Post by: E. Albright on February 22, 2016, 10:41:43 am
Post by: EuchreJack on February 22, 2016, 05:26:18 pm
Actually, these are the second elements of the UW revamps. 4.21 did a moderate overhaul on Oceania and Pelegia, and made rusting an issue. But I nitpick...
Well, you are the King of the Dominions Underwater realm, so you're allowed. :P
Post by: Cruxador on February 22, 2016, 07:52:19 pm
Post by: E. Albright on February 22, 2016, 10:20:14 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 22, 2016, 10:57:39 pm
bit harder for land nations to invade themThat's movement in the wrong direction...
Post by: Cruxador on February 22, 2016, 11:21:13 pm
I dunno, I agree that in general this is true, but I like R'lyeh having the theme it does. And turning the entire sea into a writhing mass of aboleth spawn seems like a good way to double down on that theme, countering out the (not huge, but still extant) loss of that particular aspect which comes from allowing the powerful ancient god-kings to project their power more effectively on the dry world.bit harder for land nations to invade themThat's movement in the wrong direction...
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 23, 2016, 09:53:00 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on February 24, 2016, 04:20:18 am
Post by: chaoticag on February 24, 2016, 10:28:22 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 24, 2016, 01:11:07 pm
Only updating therodos and EA rlyeh, feels kinda dissapointingAlso LA Mictlan. And the dev log already told us the broad strokes of what was coming so the only thing to be disappointed in is how poorly thought out some of these balance decisions were.
So... does anyone know how to play EA R'lyeh now? I'm finding the low drive of troops tough to work around, so any idea what I'm supposed to be doing? Aboleth troops are only good for aquatic fights, and there doesn't seem to be a way to make them go on land really, other than building a coastal fort to send mages back to have their brains replaced. Should I be using more rituals maybe? Use different units besides the slaves? Also, should I care to use any pretender other than the floating mind? Seems... really cheap in case you want good scales... but not sure how good scales are. Feel kinda lost with this nation.It's still a quite weak nation, nobody else knows how to play it either. I think you're pretty much doing it correctly. Scales are good (especially gold, since your stuff is all expensive, and magic since most astral stuff is MR-resists and the best astral stuff is high level) and it might be good to go to A4 as well; the first level of air gives easy access to amulet of the fish, which can bring mind lords topside and which you couldn't otherwise get, going up to A4 will allow you to bless androdai from a precision of 7 to 9, which is still not stellar but it's cheap once you've paid the price to add a path anyway.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on February 24, 2016, 03:48:56 pm
I guess, that first step is magic three, it is rather obvious. Second is neteret of many names for additional rp. But what is the most effecient research alghoritm ?
Post by: Frumple on February 24, 2016, 04:02:51 pm
If I had to guess, your optimal path would be picking up some air (or something of similar intent, fire, maybe astral or blood at an extreme stretch -- you're after low construction research boosting items) and then using that to boost your lowest cost researchers (which are also your most gem efficient, iirc)... maybe even dip into enchant as well, to summon revenants to hold research items, if that's cheaper than summoning your native research fodder (which I don't remember if it is, so... yeah). Ideal would be playing a disciple game or trading with another nation for research boosting items and/or death gems, so you can skimp on mage turns and whatnot.
More than that, I couldn't help y'much. Not much for the raw number crunching part of the calculations involved in the question, heh.
Post by: E. Albright on February 24, 2016, 04:22:45 pm
Only updating therodos and EA rlyeh, feels kinda dissapointing
KO said they wanted to get a really quick patch out the door since it'd been a while since the last one (thanks, CoE!) - there's still going to be more coming in the reasonably near future.
Also LA Mictlan.
And MA/LA Xibalba.
Post by: Culise on February 24, 2016, 04:26:32 pm
Want to try ermor on big map strategy focused on getting burden of time as early as possible( remember someone on desura going with pulling out burden of time on turn 12 or something) ,At a wild guess, it seems like an Awake Great Sage pretender (Adept Researcher +15 for himself, and Inspired Researcher +1 for each and every other researcher in his province) is your best pick for RP-rushes, and a minimum of D5 in paths will be necessary as you won't have any Construction research. Magic 3 on your scales should help by giving an additional +3 RP to every mage, especially since Ermor can tremendously dump almost all of their scales without issue. You need to cover 50+100+200+400+800=1550 RP, to reach Thaum5, which means that over 12 turns you'll need to get around 130 RP per turn on average. Every time you summon a Spectator, you lose 13 RP for one turn in exchange for 13 RP per turn; it pays off after one turn, and with an income of 15 gems at a minimum, you can do this once per turn and twice every four turns. By contrast, attempting to summon even a single Dusk Elder with your pretender will cost you upwards of four dozen RP for a break-even point of at least 2-3 turns, not to mention requiring 20 rather than 12 gems. Same goes for using your pretender to forge; not only do you need to divert for Con 2 (150 points) for a single owl quill (+6 RP) per turn, you're also losing any RP you could be generating having your pretender research while it's instead forging.
I guess, that first step is magic three, it is rather obvious. Second is neteret of many names for additional rp. But what is the most effecient research alghoritm ?
So: Spectators are your primary researchers. Go Great Sage and high Magic for your chassis and scales. In my sole test (no expansion, pure research), this got me to Thaum 5 by Spring Year 2 (turn 14), but I went overboard on Spectators, which meant Burden of Time didn't go up until Summer (turn 17). Though, you should be aware that if you ever try this in a multiplayer game, you will become public enemy number one, because the best way for anyone to take the global down pre-Dispel is to kill your pretender, so you may want to make at least some concession to defense.
Post by: E. Albright on February 24, 2016, 05:06:22 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on February 24, 2016, 05:09:13 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 24, 2016, 07:17:26 pm
And MA/LA Xibalba.What was done to them?
Want to try ermor on big map strategy focused on getting burden of time as early as possible( remember someone on desura going with pulling out burden of time on turn 12 or something),While possible, this was a gimmicky and unsuccessful way to play even before BoT was nerfed. Rushing it doesnt' give you the benefits to counter the cost, and depending on the meta, you either will not be able to get there without getting rushed, or casting BoT will incite everyone to gang up on you.
Quote
I guess, that first step is magic three, it is rather obvious. Second is neteret of many names for additional rp. But what is the most effecient research alghoritm?Summon a dusk elder every turn that you can, and everybody researches all the time.
By contrast, attempting to summon even a single Dusk Elder with your pretender will cost you upwards of four dozen RP for a break-even point of at least 2-3 turnsYes, but you only need to do it once. If Dusk Elders were more efficient, they would pay for themselves quickly. The real reason why not is because at magic 3, you get one RP per turn per gem regardless. It's slightly more efficient in mage turns, but in the first year that you want to be done by, that will only be relevant twice.
Side note, I just tried and got it up on turn thirteen. I was just barely short on turn twelve.
Technically with a GS and M3, Revenants are slightly better in terms of research-per-gem - you can summon 4@11rp/turn for the same price as 3@13rp/turn Spectators. However, it's probably worth it to go with the Spectators just because of how much more useful D2 is vs. D1 if you need to empty the labs...Revenants require research to get, they set you back too much. Also, if we were factoring in utility you would go for dusk elders. But then, if we were trying to be practical we wouldn't rush burden of time.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 24, 2016, 07:29:31 pm
Specifically, about everyone killing you. But still, you get to be the center of attention.
Post by: Shadowlord on February 24, 2016, 07:36:21 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 24, 2016, 07:45:42 pm
What was done to them?
Some underwater-recruit units were added to their lineup. Nothing exceptionally amazing or useful but it could come handy in a pinch. At the very least it gives you an vague interest in going underwater. The W1E1H1 mages are fairly good labrats and being underwater gives them an added measure of protection.
Post by: E. Albright on February 24, 2016, 10:50:32 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on February 25, 2016, 01:28:48 am
I'm a fan of equipping researchers with quills and/or lanterns, and do it in any game that I can.
I'm not. I can't bring myself to spend the gems.
Post by: Cruxador on February 25, 2016, 03:56:12 am
I'm not. I can't bring myself to spend the gems.Even if they're fire gems? What else are you going to do with them?
Post by: Frumple on February 25, 2016, 04:38:23 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 25, 2016, 06:40:25 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 25, 2016, 11:21:58 am
I'm not. I can't bring myself to spend the gems.
Really? I don't know about you, but spending 3~5 gems for 14 RP every turn seems like a good deal to me. It's like recruiting an extra labrat every turn and you barely notice the horror-marks. Owl Quills might not be worth it though, unless you have a large air income or are MA Ulm. But if you're MA Ulm then anything that takes 5 gems to forge normally costs only 1 gem with hammers so... It makes a lot of things worth considering. Like getting a mage bless for one gem Shrouds of the Battle Saints.
Post by: AlStar on February 25, 2016, 03:41:03 pm
Or combat boost weak mages to spam elementals, if you can deal with some tedious scripting.Just the once though - everyone's familiar with the copy-paste commands for battle scripting, right? If not, you're doing yourself a major disfavor with any battle that contains more than one mage.
Post by: E. Albright on February 25, 2016, 03:46:04 pm
Or combat boost weak mages to spam elementals, if you can deal with some tedious scripting.
Actually, what's probably more entertaining is fielding F1 labrats if you have them, giving them each a gem, and letting them spam fireballs after Phoenix Power.
That, or creating enough Terracotta Soldiers to assure your place in heaven, rival pretenders be damned: http://oglaf.com/throne-heaven/ (Essentially SFW, unlike the the overwhelming majority of that site)
Bolas. Bolas for days.
This only really works for Kailasa, etc., because what's the point of stockpiling bolas if you can't stick 5 on a single unit?
Post by: sprinkled chariot on February 25, 2016, 05:24:17 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on February 25, 2016, 05:49:28 pm
Or combat boost weak mages to spam elementals, if you can deal with some tedious scripting.
Actually, what's probably more entertaining is fielding F1 labrats if you have them, giving them each a gem, and letting them spam fireballs after Phoenix Power.
I would rather spend 5 gems on Fire in the Jar (or less with hammer, etc) and spam Phoenix Fire/Fireballs forever rather than scrounge up 1 fire gem per mage per battle. Although I notice that Dominions 4 removed the "automatically pick up fallen friendly items on battle victory" that was present in Dominions 3.
Post by: E. Albright on February 25, 2016, 06:49:49 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on February 25, 2016, 07:33:03 pm
Edit: I also prefer to take magic 2 or 3 scales, build a lot of palisades, and recruit as many of the cheapest or most efficient national researcher as I can.
Post by: Kagus on February 26, 2016, 06:18:20 pm
Also I just really like activatable items.
Post by: chaoticag on March 01, 2016, 03:17:14 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on March 01, 2016, 03:23:17 pm
Giving this the tiniest bump to see if people are interested in a multiplayer game of this. Something more beginner oriented. I've only played one and a half games of this and those were so long ago I doubt I'm in any shape to be super competitive.
You should try posting in the forum topics for the active games.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 01, 2016, 03:27:38 pm
I'd be willing to participate. I'm fairly experienced but it's been a while and I'm not really in the mood for a gritted teeth serious MP match right now. Could just fool around with some weak or 'weak' nation.
Post by: Culise on March 01, 2016, 03:35:29 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 01, 2016, 03:38:25 pm
Could just fool around with some weak or 'weak' nation.
And that is how Delta Foxtrot ended up trouncing everyone as EA R'lyeh. Good job.
Post by: chaoticag on March 01, 2016, 03:39:51 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 01, 2016, 03:40:55 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 01, 2016, 03:41:13 pm
Post by: chaoticag on March 01, 2016, 03:44:47 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 01, 2016, 03:49:39 pm
I haven't been using the balance overhaul mod and that might throw me off.Without the experimental branch, it mostly just changes costs of things and makes tiny numerical adjustments, but okay.
mod freeWhat, not even Worthy Heroes?
Post by: chaoticag on March 01, 2016, 03:53:08 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 01, 2016, 04:02:05 pm
Post by: chaoticag on March 01, 2016, 04:06:59 pm
As for fuck the world spells,got anything in mind, or want something of a list of those global enchantments?
Post by: Culise on March 01, 2016, 04:24:04 pm
Burden of Time (Thaum 5; D5): Murder on the living, especially for nations with old-age mages or that lack Growth scales. Worse, the nations that will most often cast this (*cough* Ermor) will have massive Death paths on their pretenders, making dispels hard, and have other factors (*cough* Ermor) already making them a target.
Utterdark (Alt 9; D9): Permanent darkness everywhere, causing major havoc for anyone without darkvision or other units not impaired. Random shade attacks are just icing on the cake.
Astral Corruption (Blood 7; B6S6): Casting or forging now gives horror marks if you aren't using blood magic. Horror marks cannot be removed, and they stack - the more you have, the more your mage gets targeted for assassination by random horrors, and the stronger those horrors are. Given that the late game pretty much runs on magic, this is...entertaining.
More in the lines of the world of darkness, but less effective in a general practical sense could include Foul Air (all injuries cause disease), Illwinter (increases global cold; thematically the coming of Ragnarok), Perpetual Storm (unless you're a flier nation like Caelum, in which case it's a *huge* pain), and Wrath of God (roasts heretics, but tied to your dominion's extent). Maybe Enchanted Forests (the forests themselves awaken to sing your praises and sweep away opposing faiths) as well, but that's more of a Gaia's Revenge than a world of doom.
For stuff that's powerful, but tends to be a bit more questionable on how dangerous they are:
Well of Misery (Conj 8; D6): Everyone in the world gets healthy; yay. Unfortunately, the caster is turning all of that disease, aging, and decay into pure, concentrated Death gems. Most gem generators like Mother Oak probably qualify, but this one gets special note for actually giving other players a reason not to immediately try to purge it.
Gift of Health (Ench 7; N6): Everyone who worships you becomes healthier. This one's more likely to be poached because someone else wants the effect, or fears you'll be Tartarianing it up (does it still work on Tartarian insanity?).
Forge of the Ancients (Con 7; E5): I lied. This one will likely make you a target, because it means you're going to be mass-forging a whole bunch of nasty stuff.
Post by: E. Albright on March 01, 2016, 04:52:52 pm
Post by: Culise on March 01, 2016, 05:14:17 pm
Post by: Karlito on March 01, 2016, 05:31:40 pm
Gift of Health (Ench 7; N6): Everyone who worships you becomes healthier. This one's more likely to be poached because someone else wants the effect, or fears you'll be Tartarianing it up (does it still work on Tartarian insanity?).
Tartarian insanity is incurable, but as they are undead and spawn with afflictions, GoH is one of the few ways they can be healed of those.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 01, 2016, 05:52:53 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 01, 2016, 06:01:21 pm
Post by: Karlito on March 01, 2016, 08:00:18 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 03, 2016, 04:37:09 am
Post by: Shadowlord on March 03, 2016, 08:38:35 am
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on March 03, 2016, 08:47:15 am
Quote
Illwinter (increases global cold; thematically the coming of Ragnarok)Unless they changed it, doesn't this also cause ice wolf and giant attacks on random nations?
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on March 03, 2016, 08:49:38 am
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2016, 09:45:00 am
I suppose it's just a matter of WoM being potentially a really dangerous spell, provided your opponent uses those gems wisely. Burden of Time/Utterdark doesn't pose any questions like that, it's simply "I will definitely die if I don't definitely kill him first".
Gift of Health (Ench 7; N6): Everyone who worships you becomes healthier. This one's more likely to be poached because someone else wants the effect, or fears you'll be Tartarianing it up (does it still work on Tartarian insanity?).
Tartarian insanity is incurable, but as they are undead and spawn with afflictions, GoH is one of the few ways they can be healed of those.
Yeah, Tartarian insanity is the "shattered soul" type which cannot be removed or reduced by any means. Only on Tartarians and Ashdod's summons, I think. Does GoH actually work on undead though? I thought you specifically needed the Chalice in order to properly push Tarts out the door.
I mean, they're still pretty cheap gem-wise for the beasts they are, but they're not proper mean until you can take off the mute/feeblemind/whatever they've got that's keeping down their ridiculous potential magic paths.
Heh, no mention of Agartha's breaking of the seal ritual? That's more of a "fuck absolutely everything" spell than the usual "screw you guys, I wanna win" global.
And yeah, Nexus is another one that may not be directly hostile straight up front, but good grief if it isn't a scary prospect to let someone sit on that kind of income.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 03, 2016, 05:22:21 pm
From what I remember it gives you some vastness like units. And rlyeh gets this stuff for free.
Does luck affect rlyeh void gate effect btw?
Post by: E. Albright on March 03, 2016, 05:45:09 pm
Spoiler: ... (click to show/hide)
Post by: PrimusRibbus on March 03, 2016, 05:47:32 pm
What is so great aboutbreaking the seal spell?
From what I remember it gives you some vastness like units. And rlyeh gets this stuff for free.
Does luck affect rlyeh void gate effect btw?
From the wiki:
"Unleash Imprisoned Ones: Alteration 9. E6D4, costs 100 earth gems.
Spawns three God Vessel units that appear in three random provinces that are not your capital. They will then proceed to wander the earth, destroying everything in their wake. Keep in mind that the God Vessels are independent units, and will have no qualms with running amok all over your land. A significant portion of the population of your capital dies. It also replaces your "Chamber of the Seal" Cap Site with "Chamber of the Broken Seal" which gives you 5 death gems and increases death. There is also a worldwide "Darkness" event, and a bunch of umbrals and penumbrals appear in your cap."
Check out the God Vessel and Legion of Gods units in the mod inspector. It's a... good time.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 03, 2016, 05:49:38 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 03, 2016, 05:51:53 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 03, 2016, 05:54:32 pm
@EH: As long as they're expendable, I don't see why not.
Post by: PrimusRibbus on March 03, 2016, 06:08:09 pm
Anything dies if you hit it with enough disintegrates.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you just follow the God Vessels around with expendable armies and retake the land that they capture?
Both of these are completely viable strategies assuming that you're prepared for it, the God Vessels happen to spawn in the right place, and your enemies don't capitalize on it. Those are some big ifs in a multiplayer Dominions game, particularly the lattermost point.
The problem with UIO is that it's is a russian roulette spell. I've seen games where things fizzle out in a couple turns... and I've seen games where a God Vessel pops up on capitals, in-progress sieges, or important provinces and completely changes the course of the game.
And heaven forbid you're playing with the type of nut that designs their nation explicitly to rush UIO and actually pulls it off... Some people just want to see the world burn.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 03, 2016, 10:11:16 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 04, 2016, 01:01:39 am
Anything dies if you hit it with enough disintegrates.You don't want to kill god vessels. They're worse after they die.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 04, 2016, 02:59:08 am
Post by: Cruxador on March 04, 2016, 03:19:20 am
Pretty sure the damage from disintegrate will carry over and kill the wounded form the same way a 40 damage hit can one-shot a jaguar warrior.Might be right, actually. I haven't seen that done since before the patch that made damage roll over. I'd still rather just hope they go away, getting a disintegrate past their MR is going to take a lot of ablative chaff at best.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 04, 2016, 09:41:28 am
Post by: E. Albright on March 04, 2016, 11:02:37 am
Pretty sure the damage from disintegrate will carry over and kill the wounded form the same way a 40 damage hit can one-shot a jaguar warrior.
You'd think that - I THOUGHT that - but a quick test with 12S, -5 pen Debug Sensais casting Soul Slay shows that no, when the God Vessel is broken by 999 damage spells the Legion of Gods still shows up. Perhaps it's a question of the Vessel being undead.
Post by: Kagus on March 05, 2016, 04:15:24 pm
But yes, as shown, that's a spell which is very much "screw everyone; myself included". Kind of thematically accurate, in that it's potentially the last-ditch attempt thrown out by a desperate, dying race in the middle of a lost war.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 05, 2016, 05:20:50 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 05, 2016, 05:28:32 pm
It was pretty lopsided - I think it only took 2-3 rounds to kill both parts - it took longer to clean up the skellispam it summoned than to kill it. But that was fighting 5 Sensais who were each effectively -9 pen, so you'd expect them to splatter something with "only" 22 MR.
Also, don't forget the spell gives you ~200 Penumbrals and ~70 Umbrals (!!), so it's not like your not getting a very real benefit out of it besides Darkness and screwing with everyone via Unity, Tranquility, and Serenity.
Post by: Frumple on March 05, 2016, 05:48:53 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 05, 2016, 06:16:41 pm
... someone should make, like. A scenario or somethin'. That starts off with basically every omni-hostile roaming entity in the game (maybe some of them with multiples) already up and roaming. Maybe several really nasty global enchantments, too. Basically make the thing a hellworld full of wandering horrors, and see who can survive to conquer it. That sounds like it'd be good for a laugh :VHaving played a game that got to a similar state, it's not fun at all.
Post by: E. Albright on March 05, 2016, 06:18:20 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on March 05, 2016, 07:33:11 pm
Post by: Culise on March 05, 2016, 08:01:14 pm
I'd love to have more big spells - not just endgame. Maybe a 30 F spell with low requierments that drops a metor on a completly random province, adding a amazing magic-site but removing most population and troops?Heh, it could even go one further and make it look "natural" like the Hurricane spell by utilizing the existing meteorite or comet events (for those not familiar, they create a Huge Crater - 1E1S - site; kill anywhere from 5%, 10%, or 75% of the population; and possibly destroy the lab or temple in the province depending on which particular event is triggered). I would like to see some love to go to Water, Fire, and Air, though. ^_^
Post by: Frumple on March 05, 2016, 08:30:37 pm
Custom sites would bring a lot more to that table so far as balance goes, too. I could see some really interesting stuff done with that... it'd be hella' neat to trade a province's population (or permanently damage its income and/or resources or whatev') for a PD granting site or somethin'.
E: What would be incredible would be to give one (or more) of the underwater nations a ritual spell that just straight up sinks the (coastal) province it's cast in. Kills the population outright and makes the province UW... maybe give it a new bit of seed pop to represent UW sentients moving in afterwards. I'd friggin' love something like that, it'd give an UW nation something rather incredibly annoying :V
Post by: E. Albright on March 05, 2016, 09:45:58 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 06, 2016, 04:18:49 am
(it wasn't very useful, but killed a lot of people).That is useful. Astral Corruption is amazing for hamstringing the opposition's ability to use big magic, and big magic is what wins games.
Post by: Kagus on March 06, 2016, 11:24:54 am
Modifying province types hasn't been in the game in a very long time, and will continue to not be in it for as long as maps use the current system.(it wasn't very useful, but killed a lot of people).That is useful. Astral Corruption is amazing for hamstringing the opposition's ability to use big magic, and big magic is what wins games.
Wrong spell. He was referring to Blood Vortex, which is blood's gem-generating spell, but eats population like nobody's business. So it killed a lot of people, but they weren't people-people.
And yeah, I really do miss the map-modifying aspects of Dom1... Seeing something like that come back would really be cool. It's the proper world-changing spells and rituals that make you feel like an actual proper divine entity.
Heh... Anyone done "RPG Dominions"? I've tried to get it to work/be fun a few times, but haven't exactly succeeded massively.
The basic idea is to take generic national recruit commanders, gear them up with whatever items you can find/make, and then have a party made exclusively of those commanders go around and try to take on low-level indies and deal with random events (I tended to set my dominion to misfortune and magic 3 to get the most frequent and interesting events).
One of the big problems is how the AI deals with parties like that... Namely, if a single person dies, all the commanders auto-rout because "all our army has been defeated".
The reason I bring it up is because Mis3/Mag3 is supposed to allow horrors to randomly spawn in your provinces and wreak havoc, which made me think of the apocalyptic scenario Frumple mentioned.
Oh, hey, I've got one... An anti-magic world. Have two effectively undispellable enchantments up: Arcane Corruption and The Kindly Ones. Non-blood magic gets penalized by horrors eating the caster, blood magic gets penalized by erinyes flaying their soul.
Post by: Cruxador on March 06, 2016, 01:48:41 pm
It ended up being a lot of relatively boring infrastructure building without a major war on my part, because it was on a huge map and my real life picked up and I had to step aside for 20 turns just as the midgame was transitioning to the lategame. But I avoid saying a lot when there's nothing to say so hopefully it'll be enjoyable to some folks anyway.
I have another game starting shortly, but it'll be different; it's nationgen.
Post by: E. Albright on March 06, 2016, 03:29:45 pm
So, anyone want to step into a mid-to-early-late-game hashed hoburg NationGen game as Kundorf in the above link?
Post by: symonthewise on March 07, 2016, 04:53:53 pm
Stalewarriors, a six month game which I was in, has ended. I kept a blog of the turns, and if you like you can check that out here: https://cruxador.wordpress.com/category/stalewarriors/ (https://cruxador.wordpress.com/category/stalewarriors/)
It ended up being a lot of relatively boring infrastructure building without a major war on my part, because it was on a huge map and my real life picked up and I had to step aside for 20 turns just as the midgame was transitioning to the lategame. But I avoid saying a lot when there's nothing to say so hopefully it'll be enjoyable to some folks anyway.
I have another game starting shortly, but it'll be different; it's nationgen.
Reading your blog and enjoying it.
How did you guys get in to dom4? Did you play previous iterations of the game?
I've done a couple ai games and am pretty overwhelmed by the mechanics.
Post by: Frumple on March 07, 2016, 05:13:39 pm
Mechanics wise, y'just tool around till you get used to it, really. I played a lot of AI games -- I don't think I ever actually played a Dom 3 multiplayer game, despite playing the game itself for years -- messed around with mods, etc., etc. Eventually got around to playing a few MP games in Dom 4, still tool around with neat mods when they show up, et al.
Outside of just playing, I'd totally recommend checking out LPs (there's one or two over on the LP archive), looking around the net for after-action-reports and whatnot, just kinda' seeing how other people play and how they explain things to folks. You can learn a lot that way, heh, and even if you don't they're often fun to read :V
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 07, 2016, 05:33:04 pm
Nothing much to it really. Play around, goof around, ask questions as they pop up. Consider browsing through the manual if you're into that. Though it might be a bit out of date.
There's a handy database too:
http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/
Items, spells, units. It lists a ton of stuff you can filter based on various criteria. Handy way to look stuff up that would be slow and clumsy in-game. Maybe not something you should delve into so early, but it's there when you need it.
Post by: symonthewise on March 07, 2016, 06:03:23 pm
With strategy games there's a period where I know how to do stuff and vaguely where everything is, but have no idea how to wield any of that knowledge strategically. That's probably the misty area in which I am currently. But as you said dominions is interesting, seems worth the effort of figure out.
I messed up a few of my games by randomly picking nations and pretenders. I think one time my guy couldnt move and also possibly couldn't make a prophet for some reason? So, yes, could be a while before I venture into multiplayer. I commend your bravery delta.
Thanks for that inspector link, I'll stow it away for later use.
Oh another question, do you fellows usually play random maps if you're going to do an ai game, or are there preferred premade ones? Seems the map generator can't make stuff as gigantic as cruxador's so I'm assuming that was handmade.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 07, 2016, 06:51:23 pm
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/board/undiscovered-door-maps-cartography
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showforum=22
Interesting game, even if the interface is a bit uncooperative at times.
Post by: symonthewise on March 07, 2016, 09:01:06 pm
Interesting game, even if the interface is a bit uncooperative at times.
Hehe, good to know that isn't just me.
Post by: Cruxador on March 07, 2016, 09:02:49 pm
How did you guys get in to dom4? Did you play previous iterations of the game?I played a bit of Dom3, after hearing good things about it, but I didn't get really into it and start playing multiplayer until Dom4. That I got into because it was kind of a big thing when it came out, in communities that I frequent. You have to start out being okay with not understanding everything. People that have been playing for a decade don't understand everything. And there are a lot of details that, while potentially useful for some tricky strategy some time, aren't really needed for playing the game.
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I've done a couple ai games and am pretty overwhelmed by the mechanics.There's a tutorial in the manual which covers the very basics, if you haven't seen it, and Maerland has tutorials. But as long as you know a little bit, you're good to play. You'll likely lose, but that's true no matter how good you are – there's like 8-12 players per game and only one winner. If you can find a game intended for new players, great, because you'll thrive better that way, but you can do something or other even in a game with all skill levels. Blitz games might be the fastest way to learn but PBEM will allow you to learn new things at the pace that you encounter them. Either way, play with a community where you can ask questions and talk about things, and pick up knowledge by seeing the conversations.
Links:
Manual: http://jaffa.illwinter.com/dom4/manual_dom4.pdf
Wiki: http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Dominions_4_Wiki
Play by email Guide: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=202096551
Gameplay Guides: http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/board/the-council-of-sages-strategy-guides
The pinned guides for nation evaluation and pretender design are probably decent places to start. There's also some guides on the wiki and on http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showforum=23
Maps are made of two files, an image file (the map itself) and a text file (which details province connections, terrain types, and any special features). The map used in Stalewarriors, the game that just finished on my blog, is Oeridia, the world of Greyhawk. It's rather special in a lot of ways (extensive caverns, portal connections, provinces with super-powerful independents). The one for the older game is a Dominions original.
Post by: symonthewise on March 08, 2016, 01:48:00 am
Post by: chaoticag on March 08, 2016, 01:51:10 am
How did you guys get in to dom4? Did you play previous iterations of the game?I had played 3, the main reason I had gotten into it was because of the let's plays on the lparchive. They seemed interesting, but I never got into multiplayer before 4, where I had gotten asked to sub for one game here on bay12 and I had played a disciples game on the Desura forums. Other than that I'd mostly been messing with single player stuff.
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I've done a couple ai games and am pretty overwhelmed by the mechanics.I think in general, being overwhelmed is normal when you're learning the game. For the most part, what should be happening right now is you ought to be noticing some of the options you have you liekly won't depend on much. At least right off the bat, you'll have some 80 or 90 percent of all spells as spells you won't have access to without some work.
I'd say prolly pick a nation and stick with it a bit. Play on a map meant for 2 nations and fight an AI nation. Research at normal might be too slow for that, but it also gives you more time before spells are unlocked and you need to worry about it. I personally felt I got situated when playing Middle Age Ulm with 3 production scales. Ulm is good in the middle and early ages when it comes to having a good strong army you can depend on, while the mages you have limit your options a bit, it could work in your favor. The less options you have (to start anyway) the easier it would be to evaluate them.
Post by: tnc on March 08, 2016, 05:16:39 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 08, 2016, 05:20:27 am
I'd start out with a generic human MA nation like Marignon and learn some basic magic like buffing, blowing things up, or spamming undead.
Edit: that being said there aren't any truly generic nations in dominions so its you might want to look up a nation guide or something for whoever you pick. Also I'd focus on learning each spell school in vacuum, its simpler and while crosspaths are great most mages that know multiple paths aren't terribly cost efficient anyway. Just knowing what you can do with, for example, 2 earth and nothing else, can get you pretty far into the midgame.
Post by: chaoticag on March 08, 2016, 05:57:35 am
I wanted to join the round 20 game but I've got a lot to do right now. Since a new game is sparse here in Bay12, what other place would you advice me to look for a newbie game later?Well, the round 20 game filled up pretty quick. Other than here there's the Desura forums, not sure how good they are now. Besides Desura, there's also the official forums (at least pretty sure they're the official forums) right over here (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?act=idx). Some few posts back someone mentioned the other places as well where you can find some games being run.
Theoretically, a mixed skill group is possible assuming disciple games, but eeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhh flashbacks to other two team members turning in stale turns 1/3rd the time sometimes with no warning. Theoretically sounds fun, but if I'd be in one again, I'd rather it be with people I know. The folks that won that game won since they were the most active players and always had their turns in, despite lower skill level.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 08, 2016, 06:14:41 am
But that and Desura are the two places where I've played most after Bay12. All PBEM. Those were about a year ago, but Desura was better for newbie games. Not a whole lot of newbie games at dom3mods because of higher average player experience. But all that could've changed since then, no idea.
Post by: Kagus on March 08, 2016, 10:06:00 am
Post by: Frumple on March 08, 2016, 10:15:00 am
Beyond the mechanical differences, it's like having an enforced permanent alliance that can actually share a victory. Adds a lot to the playing experience, in my experience, having people that actually are guaranteed to have your back, that you can bounce ideas off of and coordinate with without trouble, etc., etc.
Personally, I'd say it's a fairly substantial improvement over the base mode of play. Adds a lot to the game in terms of interactions and whatnot, and generally makes it more fun/interesting/engaging/etc. It's good stuff, and I'd totally recommend it.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 08, 2016, 10:54:49 am
I wanted to join the round 20 game but I've got a lot to do right now. Since a new game is sparse here in Bay12, what other place would you advice me to look for a newbie game later?Well, the round 20 game filled up pretty quick. Other than here there's the Desura forums, not sure how good they are now. Besides Desura, there's also the official forums (at least pretty sure they're the official forums) right over here (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?act=idx). Some few posts back someone mentioned the other places as well where you can find some games being run.
Theoretically, a mixed skill group is possible assuming disciple games, but eeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhh flashbacks to other two team members turning in stale turns 1/3rd the time sometimes with no warning. Theoretically sounds fun, but if I'd be in one again, I'd rather it be with people I know. The folks that won that game won since they were the most active players and always had their turns in, despite lower skill level.
We've got an opening on Round 19. While there are certainly sharks in those waters, the hoburg theme makes it more of a "lite" game.
I know I stall far more than I might otherwise, lol.
Post by: Kagus on March 08, 2016, 10:56:52 am
There are also some perfectly viable thug chassis that are classed as "disciple"-type leaders, I'm thinking stuff like the Caelum/Ragha semidivines.
Post by: tnc on March 08, 2016, 11:26:13 am
I wanted to join the round 20 game but I've got a lot to do right now. Since a new game is sparse here in Bay12, what other place would you advice me to look for a newbie game later?Well, the round 20 game filled up pretty quick. Other than here there's the Desura forums, not sure how good they are now. Besides Desura, there's also the official forums (at least pretty sure they're the official forums) right over here (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?act=idx). Some few posts back someone mentioned the other places as well where you can find some games being run.
Theoretically, a mixed skill group is possible assuming disciple games, but eeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhh flashbacks to other two team members turning in stale turns 1/3rd the time sometimes with no warning. Theoretically sounds fun, but if I'd be in one again, I'd rather it be with people I know. The folks that won that game won since they were the most active players and always had their turns in, despite lower skill level.
We've got an opening on Round 19. While there are certainly sharks in those waters, the hoburg theme makes it more of a "lite" game.
I know I stall far more than I might otherwise, lol.
I wish I could. I probably should join a game when I have some free time so I can check guides, lps etc.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 08, 2016, 11:32:35 am
Post by: tnc on March 08, 2016, 11:45:37 am
Also that's a nationgen game, and there are no guides for nationgen nations. :P
Yeah, I know. :)
Post by: EuchreJack on March 08, 2016, 11:47:47 am
Also that's a nationgen game, and there are no guides for nationgen nations. :P
Yeah, I know. :)
No guides yet. Give me a half hour.
Post by: PrimusRibbus on March 08, 2016, 11:54:27 am
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8th March: The LlamaServer hard drive became full last night, leading to some confusing "no 2h file found" emails and to all the games briefly disappearing from the website. I think I've restored everything now, but if you still have any problems please drop me an e-mail.
It might be wise to double check the next hosting time for your game, as I just restored them from the last overnight backup and added 24 hours, which might or might not be appropriate.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 08, 2016, 12:12:07 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: PrimusRibbus on March 08, 2016, 01:05:25 pm
Promised Nationgen guide, Glorious Kundorf!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on March 08, 2016, 01:42:45 pm
Promised Nationgen guide, Glorious Kundorf!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also:Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on March 08, 2016, 02:57:45 pm
Great stuff thanks! You going to blog your next game by any chance?Yep. There'll be posts ever Sunday starting with the upcoming, though the first turns aren't until the third post.
I'd start out with a generic human MA nation like Marignon and learn some basic magic like buffing, blowing things up, or spamming undead.I would say the best choice of nation is whichever one seems cool to you. Games last months, so one of the worst things that can happen is you play your nation and get all read-up and settled, but in the back of your mind it's just a second-best as you prepare for that nation you really want to play. That kind of situation is how MA Ulm, which is commonly recommended as good to learn with, got a reputation for staling and going AI in the first year. Simplicity is nice if it's literally your first game and you're learning the ropes against AI, but when you get into multiplayer you'll find that complexity hinders you far less than you'd previously expected.
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Also I'd focus on learning each spell school in vacuum, its simpler and while crosspaths are great most mages that know multiple paths aren't terribly cost efficient anyway. Just knowing what you can do with, for example, 2 earth and nothing else, can get you pretty far into the midgame.2 earth is especially great because it lets you cast earth power, which brings you to 3 earth and that has a lot of good spells in Alteration and also Blade Wind, which is a great evocation for shredding unarmored enemies (and is passable against lightly armored).
Post by: Cruxador on March 08, 2016, 03:09:12 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on March 08, 2016, 03:23:41 pm
Great stuff thanks! You going to blog your next game by any chance?Yep. There'll be posts ever Sunday starting with the upcoming, though the first turns aren't until the third post.I'd start out with a generic human MA nation like Marignon and learn some basic magic like buffing, blowing things up, or spamming undead.I would say the best choice of nation is whichever one seems cool to you. Games last months, so one of the worst things that can happen is you play your nation and get all read-up and settled, but in the back of your mind it's just a second-best as you prepare for that nation you really want to play. That kind of situation is how MA Ulm, which is commonly recommended as good to learn with, got a reputation for staling and going AI in the first year. Simplicity is nice if it's literally your first game and you're learning the ropes against AI, but when you get into multiplayer you'll find that complexity hinders you far less than you'd previously expected.QuoteAlso I'd focus on learning each spell school in vacuum, its simpler and while crosspaths are great most mages that know multiple paths aren't terribly cost efficient anyway. Just knowing what you can do with, for example, 2 earth and nothing else, can get you pretty far into the midgame.2 earth is especially great because it lets you cast earth power, which brings you to 3 earth and that has a lot of good spells in Alteration and also Blade Wind, which is a great evocation for shredding unarmored enemies (and is passable against lightly armored).
I absolutely must disagree HARD with the strategy of learning anything in isolation. You end up unable to comprehend how Blade Wind + Strength of Giants + Berserkers can win battles. Just put it all together from the beginning and muddle through. If I had seen that advice from the original poster, I would have said something then. Multi-path mages are GREAT in multiplayer, as your opponent has a harder time figuring out what you're going to do, and you can change magic strategies without changing your mages.
I also agree with the idea of picking a nation that seems cool. After months of play, learning will occur, lol.
Post by: Cruxador on March 08, 2016, 03:35:32 pm
I absolutely must disagree HARD with the strategy of learning anything in isolation.There are stages to learning. Taking one thing at a time first and then putting them together is much easier than putting everything together at once.
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Multi-path mages are GREAT in multiplayer, as your opponent has a harder time figuring out what you're going to do, and you can change magic strategies without changing your mages.This is true in the abstract but depends a lot on specifics of what's available to your nation. If you have mages with two levels* in one path for a good price, they can overwhelm your enemies with such volume that it doesn't matter that they're not as versatile, and be powerful in a quite narrow usage paradigm for the entire midgame. You do ALSO need bigger multi-path mages, but generally you're fine with only a couple of them per army, adding versatility and a wider array of key spells (mostly army buffs) to an otherwise less versatile setup.
*Or even just one, if it's Astral
Post by: Kagus on March 08, 2016, 04:15:34 pm
Also, losing a 400 gold cap-only StR commander hurts. I'm not doing that again.
Post by: symonthewise on March 10, 2016, 03:44:45 pm
It's going pretty well! Have to figure out what to do about these bat guys that I'm adjacent too now...
Thanks to everyone who offered advice, the game seems to attract helpful people.
For anyone who is just getting started, I have enjoyed cruxadors blogs and also this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=532t2cQ8gQk&list=PLM7yEwbhGUooISDlRy9rcQ0__senFxmHc&index=1
Post by: Kagus on March 10, 2016, 05:28:22 pm
Love 'em to bits though. The whole enkidu groove and their recruit-everywhere everythings is great.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 10, 2016, 05:45:38 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 11, 2016, 07:02:29 am
Post by: AlStar on March 11, 2016, 07:15:24 am
So how do story events work?Have you ever thought "I need more chaos in my life," or "these independents just aren't causing enough trouble"?
Well, story events are a good way to accomplish both!
Basically, they're high-risk, high reward events/chains of events that are unleashed on your world. A lot of them are tied to thrones - for instance, when someone claims the throne of beasts, the entire world randomly gets groups of werewolves and giant dogs attacking it. Or the throne of death, which causes undead to attack everyone.
"But why would I want random indies causing chaos everywhere?" Well, first, it's fun, but secondly, if you're the one who actually set off the chain (or if you can capture the throne quickly enough) you'll get a bunch of free troops. I forget what the beast throne gives you (probably a bunch of werewolves), but the bones throne gives you some undead commanders and several hundred chaff undead troops.
Other events include unleashing a daemonic portal which will then throw demons at everything until someone manages to make it stop (if I remember correctly, if your mages discover a heavily runed, locked door - leave it alone), and getting a bunch of greater otherness' by sacrificing some population (was related to some fishing village who your mages discover is worshipping Cthulhu.)
Post by: Kagus on March 11, 2016, 09:00:07 am
Which brings me back to Ur, and the special event they can get which says they're gearing up for a fertility festival, so they need a priest-king and priest-queen available in the capital for when it does happen.
If you don't have them both there when the time runs out, there's a big spike in unrest and you get a couple death scales for a while. Fun times!
Post by: EuchreJack on March 11, 2016, 11:10:58 am
Basically, they're random events that are linked to each other over a certain amount of time/player interaction. A kind of "mega-event".
Which brings me back to Ur, and the special event they can get which says they're gearing up for a fertility festival, so they need a priest-king and priest-queen available in the capital for when it does happen.
If you don't have them both there when the time runs out, there's a big spike in unrest and you get a couple death scales for a while. Fun times!
What happens if the lovely couple actually is available?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 11, 2016, 11:23:03 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 11, 2016, 06:37:57 pm
8)
Post by: Mallos on March 11, 2016, 09:34:35 pm
I love dominions 4!
8)
I think everyone on this thread does mate :P
Post by: bulborbish on March 11, 2016, 10:03:18 pm
I love dominions 4!
8)
I think everyone on this thread does mate :P
I love dominions 4 because nation gen actually kinda works for it.
Even if it leads to a moment of "wait, that unit can turn into a Air Elemental?" kind of moments.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 11, 2016, 10:04:18 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 12, 2016, 03:53:42 am
Post by: Cruxador on March 12, 2016, 03:06:25 pm
I love dominions, but I've found pending MP turns end up being just another thing for me to be anxious about.There are definitely times when one isn't in the mood for them.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 12, 2016, 03:52:49 pm
With experience, you can submit turns that move things forward sorta but don't take up a lot of your time. Better than stalling, at least.I love dominions, but I've found pending MP turns end up being just another thing for me to be anxious about.There are definitely times when one isn't in the mood for them.
Post by: chaoticag on March 12, 2016, 05:48:48 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on March 12, 2016, 11:20:46 pm
But thanks for clarifying chaoticag
Yeah, I've occasionally been anxious about how my battles would resolve, especially on the first turn of a new war.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 13, 2016, 07:32:52 am
What are death theme nations with amassing undead capabilities except sceleria, lemuria and ermor?
Post by: Frumple on March 13, 2016, 08:29:00 am
Anything that has access to reanimating priests or an equivalent, really, or those few that have national undead summoning spells they can actually spam. Conceptually, anyone with death access (to at least D2 or so) can mass undead, it's just significantly more expensive for 'em gem-wise and notably less sustainable than those that have freespawn and/or reanimating priests.
As for sceleria, haven't played it terribly much, but from what I understand it's mostly just "Keep recruiting priests,* keep having them bring up longdead, bury everyone under a wave of corpses that eventually starts outproducing Ashen Ermor." Sprinkle with skelliespam assassins, gigantic communions, and something along the lines of great frothing hoards of astral artillery (1/4th of your grand thaums can mind hunt or VotD), and you've got most of sceleria's sceleria. Honestly, they're probably the game's least fiddly/most straightforward undead massing nation, it's just wrangling all those priests is something of a nuisance.
*Cultists if you're cash strapped/don't have a lab in the province, lesser thaumaturgs otherwise, indie priests everywhere you don't have forts and they can be recruited. Every H1 priest is another 3 longdead (more if you give them the reanimation amulet whatsit) per turn for as long as they live! Get lots. You probably want gold scales just to keep up with the priest recruitment.
Post by: Kagus on March 13, 2016, 08:58:36 am
Lanka has some decent reanimators for getting some nice chaff to go along with the demon armies. Let's also not forget LA C'tis and their massive dead armies.
Nazca really is kinda backwards in that regard. Their cheap swarming chaff are living slaves, and their elites are the risen sacred dead.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 13, 2016, 09:36:41 am
Post by: EuchreJack on March 14, 2016, 02:05:47 am
Post by: Frumple on March 14, 2016, 06:39:54 am
Though reanimation isn't the worst thing you can do with an idling prophet. I mean, it's probably close with an idle stealth prophet, but still. You could just be waiting.
... though just waiting might be better, too, if the enemy has large amounts of banishers/other easy ways to mass kill undead. Pretty sure non-combat summoned ones still count for the HP rout trigger, in which case the prophet would just be making it easier to lose a fight :V
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 14, 2016, 09:18:52 am
Is anybody in beta test of eendgame spells mod? It seems badass! Hounds of tindaloo, woo!
Any ideas on using Moloch?
How to use battlefield wrecking spells without getting rekt, stuff like astral tempest.
La rlyeh pretender ideas except kraken?
Post by: chaoticag on March 14, 2016, 09:43:32 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 15, 2016, 12:58:46 am
Fun fact: Any undead/demon that is made into a priest can reanimate. For example, if you nation has access to blood, then you can forgo making your first prophet until you are able to summon a Shadow Imp. Once you have the Shadow Imp (which costs a whooping 4 blood slaves, making it the cheapest undead/demon commander, as it doesn't eat into the rarer death gems), make it your prophet, and you too can reanimate the dead!I had an earlygame build for Sauromatia that involved raising a black servant and making him prophet then using him to reanimate longdead horsemen on repeat. Since I'm not in a mood to join any MP games I might as well share it.
Spoiler: Pretender (click to show/hide)
The idea is to get palisades up as quickly as possible and start spamming M3 soothesayers, then rush enchantment 5. Then you have a witch king or three spam Pale Riders. Then, on the eve of your first war, recruit cavalry everywhere. The idea is that for your first war you have two armies. One is a massive blob of longdead horsemen (from Pale Riders and from your prophet plinking away in the background) and ordinary cavalry with little mage support. The other is a horde of non-poison archers with Fire Arrows, Wind Guide, and several enaries in front spamming Horde of Skeletons. With good play I believe that was possible in under 18 months, and from there you just rush evocations 7 (maybe stopping by for construction 4) and get Nether Darts. There's not too much left to do from there tho, I wouldn't try that build in a huge MP game, only a medium or small one.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 15, 2016, 03:37:43 am
Post by: chaoticag on March 15, 2016, 03:55:42 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 15, 2016, 05:04:26 am
How good/bad is frozen heart spam?Its a niche for killing thugs/SCs mostly. If you're targeting something that would die to evocations anyway (like heavy infantry or ogres or something) you're better off with the classics like fireballs or lightning or some weird crosspaths shit like acid. But some big dude your opponent invested 40 gems in? He'll die just as dead to it as a militiaman would. Unless he has cold resistance.
The other niche is to break into evocations if all you've got is low level water mages. But you have to ask "is this better than just summoning water elementals?" Unless your opponent is using elite troops, probably not. It doesn't scale too well with magic level (not enough to be more useful than a high level spell would be), and with its range the mages will be standing close enough to the frontline that your opponent might kill them with a missed evocation or even arrow. You're looking at about ~5 human kills per mage per fight. That's not bad but its not a glowing recommendation either. Also if your army routs all your frozen heart spammers will likely die.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 15, 2016, 05:55:09 am
Post by: Frumple on March 15, 2016, 06:13:51 am
... so yeah, they're shitty researchers. They're also W1, and water is one of the easiest paths in the game to boost up if you've got that initial caster and enough construction, as well as having a few rather nice trinkets and whatnot. It's pretty much always fairly useful to have access to water casters, regardless of their strength, if you've got the W income to do something with it. It's better to have W2, obviously enough, but W1 can do in a pinch (or if you've got a limited amount of higher level water mages, due to events or whatev') and they're pretty good workhorse mages regardless. Just... yeah, don't leave them researching if you can avoid it :V
*Also you've got at least 1 W4 caster, which gives you access to, uh. Almost every pure water combat spell.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 15, 2016, 06:26:14 am
How good/bad is frozen heart spam?
Great damage, drawbacks are range (it's decent, could be better) and it's single target (not so good against armies, but it wrecks thugs and small raiding parties). Great spell in its niche. Another potential use for W1's (or any elemental mages for that matter) are elemental battlesummons. Gem expensive, yes, but a mass of elementals can do tons of damage in one-off battles.
Post by: Frumple on March 15, 2016, 06:29:23 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 17, 2016, 01:27:28 pm
Also how to forge runesmasher? And what is the way to achieve maximum penetration on mage?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 17, 2016, 01:51:11 pm
Hiss hiss, how do I LA Ctisss?
Did alright with them in one MP game. You've got powerful death mages and can create permanent longdead, including factional elites. Rushing enchantment for horde of skeletons and recruiting a bunch of priests to get an unending horde of chaff is a good basic strategy. C'tis is really powerful in the midgame once they get their basic research and undead production going. A bit weak early game and late game as people start countering your obvious undead. Consider taking an awake expander to compensate for the early game and play aggressively to end the game before you get too far into late game.
And just because you do undead really well, don't get complacent and ignore other things. One trick ponies in Dominions are rather brittle. You've got good access to astral between your recruitables and summonables for example.
Also how to forge runesmasher? And what is the way to achieve maximum penetration on mage?
If I can't get a WF mage, which is most of the time, I usually empower a W/F mage with the other path. It's a bit expensive, but I usually have trouble spending all my water and fire gems so it works out.
Here's all the penetration gear you can forge:
http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/?page=item&showids=1&itemkey=pen&itemcomp=2&itemval=1
Rune Smasher, Eye of the Void and Spell Focus is a good set. Even just Eye of the Void and Spell Focus go a long way.
Post by: AlStar on March 17, 2016, 03:36:23 pm
I usually have trouble spending all my water and fire gems so it works out.Heathen! Have you no respect for the two best items in the game: water bottles and fire lamps?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 17, 2016, 06:26:17 pm
Hiss hiss, how do I LA Ctisss?One way to do it is get a double Blood/Death major bless and send a blob of mummy snakes at people. They'll have so much health that most enemies won't be able to kill them without dying themselves and the death bless lets them get through all that silly plate armor everyone in LA likes using.
Also how to forge runesmasher? And what is the way to achieve maximum penetration on mage?
Scales wildly depending on how quickly you can get death gems together, so pay attention to what the game's settings are.
Alternately, use their cost efficient infantry (particularly their dual wielders) and banefire supported by tomb chariots and maybe some undead chaff if friendly fire becomes a problem.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 20, 2016, 11:01:08 am
Post by: Shadowlord on March 20, 2016, 12:25:24 pm
* Yes, I realize I'm saying "Amazon Amazon Web Services," but the url is amazonaws.com, so there.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 20, 2016, 01:55:29 pm
I usually have trouble spending all my water and fire gems so it works out.Heathen! Have you no respect for the two best items in the game: water bottles and fire lamps?
Great items... Once you get to const-6. It usually takes a while for me to justify going past const-4. Those gems build up fast when I'm distracted by shiny summons, evocs and other fun bits in other schools.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 20, 2016, 10:19:56 pm
That explains a lot. :PI usually have trouble spending all my water and fire gems so it works out.Heathen! Have you no respect for the two best items in the game: water bottles and fire lamps?
Post by: AlStar on March 21, 2016, 09:49:02 am
If I've got fire mages and any kind of fire gem income, I prioritize construction 6 as much as I possibly can - you really cannot believe what a difference it makes to your research - at the price of a mere 5 fire gems, each lightless lantern gets you an extra upkeep-free researching mage. Combine that with whatever your normal fort production is and you'll see your research/turn grow exponentially... well, until you run out of gems and/or mages to hold lanterns.I usually have trouble spending all my water and fire gems so it works out.Heathen! Have you no respect for the two best items in the game: water bottles and fire lamps?
Great items... Once you get to const-6. It usually takes a while for me to justify going past const-4. Those gems build up fast when I'm distracted by shiny summons, evocs and other fun bits in other schools.
(Note: not responsible for any mages which may get eaten by the horrible creatures of the abyss. I do not recommend giving your pretender a lightless lantern, unless you're interested in seeing what doom-level horrors look like.)
Post by: Shadowgandor on March 21, 2016, 10:06:55 am
Post by: Frumple on March 21, 2016, 10:47:10 am
Post by: AlStar on March 21, 2016, 03:05:34 pm
Will "conservative use of gems" make it so they don't cast any blood magic at all off-script, or just slow down the consumption of slaves?
If a mage is set to cast spells, but can't (because they've got no slaves, and have no other valid spells), what will they do? Sit around? Charge heroically at the enemies, hoping to punch them to death? Something else?
Post by: EuchreJack on March 21, 2016, 03:24:11 pm
Although I suppose I can test this when I get home, does anyone happen to know how blood mages (in this case, specifically ones with blood magic only) interact with their orders?
Will "conservative use of gems" make it so they don't cast any blood magic at all off-script, or just slow down the consumption of slaves?
If a mage is set to cast spells, but can't (because they've got no slaves, and have no other valid spells), what will they do? Sit around? Charge heroically at the enemies, hoping to punch them to death? Something else?
Blood mages without slaves will cast "Sabbath Slave" for as many turns as they're able. However, Blood/Fire mages will cast "Blood Boil", which doesn't take slaves.
I think the real question you should be asking is: Will "conservative use of gems" allow blood mages to even use blood slaves?
After the first couple levels of research, most mages have something they can spam (even if its useless), so having no spells is a rare occurrence. I'm pretty sure mages unable to cast anything do in fact do nothing.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 21, 2016, 03:33:42 pm
Blood mages can use slaves that other folks on their side of the battle have brought. (I don't recall if they have to be nearby, though)
I'd try to answer more of your questions (having just finished a game where I used blood magic heavily), but can't, really, because I almost never used blood magic in battle, since I figured it was (1) a waste of slaves compared to what else I could do with them (blood sac, high-end mass demon summons, infernal disease), (2) a waste of low-level blood mages who could be blood hunting instead.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 21, 2016, 03:44:03 pm
A mage who can't cast spells just sits there doing nothing. They don't try to get closer, or switch to attacking, or anything else.
Blood mages can use slaves that other folks on their side of the battle have brought. (I don't recall if they have to be nearby, though)
I'd try to answer more of your questions (having just finished a game where I used blood magic heavily), but can't, really, because I almost never used blood magic in battle, since I figured it was (1) a waste of slaves compared to what else I could do with them (blood sac, high-end mass demon summons, infernal disease), (2) a waste of low-level blood mages who could be blood hunting instead.
Obviously, AlStar is desperate in whatever blood scheme he's cooking up.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 21, 2016, 04:01:12 pm
Post by: chaoticag on March 21, 2016, 04:11:27 pm
I remember the SC frame I once made which was built to last against horrors and then trying to stack as many horror marks on it as possible. Hot damn the horrors that eventually appear are crazy. Is there even anything that can consistently win from the most dangerous horrors?Mindless units are horror mark immune, barring you handing them a lightless lantern maybe. I have not seem a reason to hand a golem a lightless lantern.
Talking about a waste, i do love the concept of horror marks, but I recall they where useless in dom3 and it was always better to mind hunt or wish-spam or do anything else excep that. Does it have bite, now in dom4?Well, horror marking is free, the main thing about it is to kinda doom the unit you are fighting to a slow death of a thousand cuts. Cursing and horror marks can cut down the effectiveness of Super Combatants. Also, if the SC in question, or a mage has an item that casts returning on them when hit, then I'm pretty sure it would kill them by retreating if a horror attacked them and sent them returning, due to how assassinations worked.
If you have 20 slaves to spare, maybe you can use a horror seed at blood 9 and have a unit discretely horror mark and spread parasitic horrors in an enemy army. Given it's a unit in the army, it will travel with that army and horror mark things until it is killed, at which point it's true self is revealed and it attacks everyone. Fun for the whole family, but maybe use it for a war going on between two people you dislike.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 21, 2016, 04:33:37 pm
Talking about a waste, i do love the concept of horror marks, but I recall they where useless in dom3 and it was always better to mind hunt or wish-spam or do anything else excep that. Does it have bite, now in dom4?
Got my dragon pretender horror marked a few times during an early war. I'm not 100% sure but I seem to recall him fighting a horror late in the game and surviving and possibly being attacked again and dying. Of course he had been long since relegated to site searching/dom pushing.
We're talking about one or two province raid's worth of horror marks by one or two defending S mages. It was a complete non-issue for me. You'd have to seriously stack those marks to make something happen in a reasonable time frame.
edit:
ohgod Horror Seed is horrible. First nothing and then boom, army gone. World really goes to hell during Ascension Wars.
Post by: symonthewise on March 21, 2016, 04:36:09 pm
Basically what I want to know is, can I ritually sacrifice pointless commanders who I am angry at.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 21, 2016, 04:39:41 pm
Bonus points if he survives or even takes over the province while at it :P
Post by: symonthewise on March 21, 2016, 04:41:03 pm
Post by: AlStar on March 21, 2016, 05:42:58 pm
It's not exactly a secret - I'm planning to have a blood mage cast Blood Lust, which I'd say is worthwhile if 1) you've got enough demons around, and 2) you know there's about to be a large battle... like say if you just broke down a castle gate.A mage who can't cast spells just sits there doing nothing. They don't try to get closer, or switch to attacking, or anything else.
Blood mages can use slaves that other folks on their side of the battle have brought. (I don't recall if they have to be nearby, though)
I'd try to answer more of your questions (having just finished a game where I used blood magic heavily), but can't, really, because I almost never used blood magic in battle, since I figured it was (1) a waste of slaves compared to what else I could do with them (blood sac, high-end mass demon summons, infernal disease), (2) a waste of low-level blood mages who could be blood hunting instead.
Obviously, AlStar is desperate in whatever blood scheme he's cooking up.
I agree that blood mages are generally better off doing something more productive with their time, but until fairly recently I didn't have any other commanders that could lead demons outside of cap-only recruits, so I've still got some mages who are acting as glorified demonic baby sitters.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 21, 2016, 06:15:14 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 21, 2016, 08:55:40 pm
Basically what I want to know is, can I ritually sacrifice pointless commanders who I am angry at.
Give them a pretty green necklace to wear (you can take it back after the first month to make sure others don't suffer in solidarity with them), or a pretty green sceptre. The next ten months of their life should be appropriately enjoyable.
If you have 20 slaves to spare, maybe you can use a horror seed at blood 9 and have a unit discretely horror mark and spread parasitic horrors in an enemy army. Given it's a unit in the army, it will travel with that army and horror mark things until it is killed, at which point it's true self is revealed and it attacks everyone. Fun for the whole family, but maybe use it for a war going on between two people you dislike.
The last time I used Horror Seed I unfortunately infected one of the thousands upon thousands of soulless and longdead in the province, and within a turn or two, it was evaporated by my Purgatory. Tragically, this was an unhandled form of death as far as HS was concerned, so it didn't even go out with a bang. OTOH, the Horror Seed was pretty much just counting coup at that point, so no biggie...
Post by: Shadowlord on March 21, 2016, 09:34:00 pm
Post by: AlStar on March 22, 2016, 02:08:22 pm
I mean, sometimes it's pretty easy - I spent 10 gold on PD who managed to kill 30 gold worth of an attacking army => that was a worthwhile investment in PD.
Similarly, in battles which involve only regular troops, a simple tally of gold/resource costs can give a good measure.
But what do you do when you start bringing in summoned troops into the mix?
For instance (and this isn't going to be perfectly accurate, since I don't have the battle open in front of me): I lost roughly 50 wolves, killing a demon knight and something like half a dozen 20 gold, high resource troops.
The wolves were either part of a werewolf's entourage as part of a 15 gem spell, or summoned up by bored werewolves for free.
The demon knight only costs 5 slaves, but required at least one turn to hunt down those slaves, then another turn to summon.
The troops took at least one turn to build (possibly more, depending on resources required vs how resource-rich my opponent's castles are) plus gold costs.
Did I come out ahead? Personally, I'm feeling like I did, since I see those wolves as a basically 'free' resource - even the ones that came out of a spell are basically just a plus for getting a werewolf, and the ones summoned by werewolves are also free, since werewolves aren't mages, so I'm not losing research/site searching/whatever opportunity costs - whatever carnage those wolves manage to inflict before dying a horrible death is a plus.
Thoughts?
Post by: chaoticag on March 22, 2016, 02:34:45 pm
In terms of gem comparisons, the issue then is mostly whether it could have been done cheaper. If I'm summoning ogres, is there anything I could be doing with those earth gems that gets me a better effect that reaches the same strategic goal I have in mind? Losing those ogres on defense would royally suck compared to using PD, and curse of stones might be more effective for what I have in mind instead of summoning troops with those gems.
Generally though, when it comes to gems, I'd rather something be more permanent than a one off fight if I was summoning units. I just prefer reliable increases than one off boosts.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 22, 2016, 02:56:49 pm
Random question for you all - how do you determine if you came out ahead in a fight?
I mean, sometimes it's pretty easy - I spent 10 gold on PD who managed to kill 30 gold worth of an attacking army => that was a worthwhile investment in PD.
Similarly, in battles which involve only regular troops, a simple tally of gold/resource costs can give a good measure.
But what do you do when you start bringing in summoned troops into the mix?
For instance (and this isn't going to be perfectly accurate, since I don't have the battle open in front of me): I lost roughly 50 wolves, killing a demon knight and something like half a dozen 20 gold, high resource troops.
The wolves were either part of a werewolf's entourage as part of a 15 gem spell, or summoned up by bored werewolves for free.
The demon knight only costs 5 slaves, but required at least one turn to hunt down those slaves, then another turn to summon.
The troops took at least one turn to build (possibly more, depending on resources required vs how resource-rich my opponent's castles are) plus gold costs.
Did I come out ahead? Personally, I'm feeling like I did, since I see those wolves as a basically 'free' resource - even the ones that came out of a spell are basically just a plus for getting a werewolf, and the ones summoned by werewolves are also free, since werewolves aren't mages, so I'm not losing research/site searching/whatever opportunity costs - whatever carnage those wolves manage to inflict before dying a horrible death is a plus.
Thoughts?
As your opponent in that fight, I'll answer honestly and truly: I won, you lost.
Besides, your puny analysis omits the only factor I ever consider: Who has the province at the end? Answer: Me.
Also: See my comment in our thread on this game. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=154789.msg6889019#msg6889019)
Finally:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: AlStar on March 22, 2016, 03:14:48 pm
If you want a more technical analysis, both the wolves and the Demon Knight are equal to two turns, one by the werewolf and the other by a blood/earth mage.Sure, but as I mention in my initial post, a werewolf's time is a lot less valuable then that of a blood/earth mage. If a werewolf isn't summoning up more wolves, he's just sitting on his ass.
I was sad to see that you'd fallen back - I had a nice greeting party ready for that demon lord of yours, and the hope was the wolves would cut off your retreating troops.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 22, 2016, 03:30:17 pm
Getting another demon knight, otoh, is easy if EuchreJack has even a tiny blood hunting operation going, although you have to ask yourself whether it's worth the mage-turn to summon a single demon cavalry unit (unless he has blood 9 and can summon 10+ per mage-turn with boosted/empowered mages). If he wanted to replace the lost conventional troops, I'd guess that his main constraint would be the time needed to produce them and ship them to the front. How fast he could do so would depend on obvious factors that you've probably already considered: where he wants to make them, the amount of resources available there, and the resource cost on the units, and how long it would take to ship them forward.
If he's using them as standard troops it's entirely possible that he could be producing and streaming them to the front constantly, so replacement time would be effectively zero, so there is that, too.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 22, 2016, 03:32:00 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on March 22, 2016, 03:54:24 pm
The spell description is pretty much spot on:
Quote
A Horror is sent to possess a far away enemy. The Horror hides its true self and spreads its evil ways, marking and cursing soldiers in the province. The most horrible ability of the possessing Horror is to infect living soldiers with Parasitic Horrors. These Parasitic Horrors sooner or later break the mind and body of their host, transforming them into full fledged Horrors. Should the host of the Master Horror be slain, the true Horror will manifest and attack everything alive.
The horror seed plants a master horror in a random unit in the province you cast horror seed on. It stays in that unit no matter where said unit goes. Killing any unit with a horror in it will release said horror, I believe, or a parasitic horror can pop out and attack the army, which can cause a chain reaction if it kills more units that have horrors in them.
If the host of the master horror dies really soon after it's planted with horror seed, it may not have created any parasitic horrors yet, but may still kill some people.
Hey AlStar, got any Nature gems left?Trolls are more economical then you'd think - the nature ones, anyway. A mere... 37 gems, I think? A steal compared to the 55 needed for earth trolls.
Can you do something useful with nature trolls? I ask because boosted earth trolls can cast very useful E5 spells, including Crumble, Earth Attack, Forge of the Ancients, King of Elemental Earth (casting that twice gets you two natural E5 casters), and if you want to use them in combat, Army of Gold and Army of Lead. Most of those are mid/lategame spells, though. Crumble's the lowest-level one, I think (Alteration 6).
After Father Illearth, troll kings are also my preferred demon knight mass-producers once I have blood 9. (A regular E1 mage with earth boots would be cheaper to empower/buff up to the required level, but also far easier to kill)
Post by: Cruxador on March 22, 2016, 05:14:51 pm
Did Desura just die? ;-;7The company has been dead for like half a year. The site was presumably only up because nothing had expired yet (aside from the mail service, the lack of which prevented new people from joining) and nobody had gone out of their way to take it down.
Talking about a waste, i do love the concept of horror marks, but I recall they where useless in dom3 and it was always better to mind hunt or wish-spam or do anything else excep that. Does it have bite, now in dom4?The problem with them is that while they do spell inevitable annihilation, they don't do anything in the immediate sense. So while you can slap a bunch of horror marks on an SC and it will be taken down eventually, in a straight army-vs-army fight, they're far less useful.
Post by: Frumple on March 22, 2016, 05:47:28 pm
Can you do something useful with nature trolls?Basically no, tbh. The nature summon one is 1D1N 100% EDN with nothing going for it except being a troll, whereas the kings are both 3 in their respective paths and gem generators. Their coterie also significantly better than the forest troll one, too -- the forest trolls are basically the worst trolls. There's a reason the forest troll tribe is 37N compared to the courts' 55X, heh.
You could do a little bit with it, maybe -- about as much as you could do with any 2D or 2N caster, if you get lucky and get those instead of ending up with a more or less junk (barring trinket casting and site searching, anyway) 1E1D1N -- but you can't squeeze them for nearly as much as you can the kings.
E: Well, thinking on that a little, a nature nation could use them to break into death, if they've absolutely got no better access. And a bucketload of conjuration research; the easiest 3D summon that could top a 2D one seems to be mound fiends at conj 7, heh. Maybe a lamia queen, which a 2N shaman in a nature nation might be able to boost up to...
Course, if you've got enough death gems laying around that burning that much N to be able to start spending them is a good idea, you've probably already got death access. So... yeah. Forest troll tribe isn't the best of unit summoning spells, heh.
Post by: Kagus on March 22, 2016, 07:52:21 pm
I've found it amusing: For instance, casting it on a castle I have no intention of attacking any time soon - eventually a horror shows up, kills the PD, and puts the fort under siege. Another time I cast it on a big army that looked poised to fight another big army. They fought, one side was losing, and then the horror popped out and went to town on both sides.
That's gotta be great for them to watch afterwards. "Player 3 has entered the game!"
Post by: EuchreJack on March 22, 2016, 09:06:12 pm
I'd look at whether you need to replace your losses, and how difficult it would be to do so. Getting 50 more wolves would take a while, for instance, unless you have a lot of werewolves or burned a lot of gems summoning more. On the other hand, you could replace them with a non-shit unit that would be less likely to die in droves :P. Of course if your army was strong enough and they were just chaff you could replace them with any other chaff unit or use in-battle summon spam.
Getting another demon knight, otoh, is easy if EuchreJack has even a tiny blood hunting operation going, although you have to ask yourself whether it's worth the mage-turn to summon a single demon cavalry unit (unless he has blood 9 and can summon 10+ per mage-turn with boosted/empowered mages). If he wanted to replace the lost conventional troops, I'd guess that his main constraint would be the time needed to produce them and ship them to the front. How fast he could do so would depend on obvious factors that you've probably already considered: where he wants to make them, the amount of resources available there, and the resource cost on the units, and how long it would take to ship them forward.
If he's using them as standard troops it's entirely possible that he could be producing and streaming them to the front constantly, so replacement time would be effectively zero, so there is that, too.
To be fair, and to reveal something about the Random Hoburg mess we're playing, most standard troops are map move 1, with the rare few having...map move 2. So nobody's going to ship conventional forces to the front lines quickly, although AlStar is doing his best to shorten the distance between my forts and my front lines...
Post by: AlStar on March 23, 2016, 10:49:47 am
Well, thinking on that a little, a nature nation could use them to break into death, if they've absolutely got no better access.I'd say this is probably the best use of them. If I didn't happen to have a hero that had a single point in death magic, I would've needed to use them for this. As it is, I'll agree - the earth troll king is much more all-around useful, both for rituals and on the battlefield; and water trolls are great for moving into underwater provinces (but otherwise fairly mediocre, from what I've seen.)
Still, sometimes you just need some heavy hitters (+regen, - tendency to burn to death), and you don't have a surplus of earth gems to conjure up ogres.
Post by: chaoticag on March 24, 2016, 02:48:31 am
Post by: Shadowlord on March 24, 2016, 08:53:46 am
Rainbows are good if you have specific plans to use specific spells or items and you need someone with paths your national mages don't have, or if you just want to keep your options open as far as making boosters for some of the paths. You can also site search with them, but that can be risky since they tend to be weak. Also site searching is more useful as a disciple since as a pretender you would probably take imprisoned unless you expect the game to be short or you need their help early.
* This is how I see it anyways. :)
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 24, 2016, 09:02:01 am
Rather than a rainbow I'd take a strong caster, preferably an immortal. You don't get variety of a rainbow but you can afford a few high paths to get some key items. They also wreck the battlefield once you have some good battle spells researched. Still not as good early on as a pure combat god but I seem to recall seeing liches and vampires doing alright in disciple games.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 24, 2016, 09:12:27 am
He wasn't immortal, but our opponents never targeted us with assassination spells. Several of them had combat pretenders, which made them killable with VoTD spam by Frumple.
(E Albright's pretender was a standard N9Ex bless chassis, which was far more important than my disciple build, for the record)
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 24, 2016, 10:09:43 am
How do I into blood megic, like every combat spell requires slaves, which I need for sweet rituals.
Post by: AlStar on March 24, 2016, 10:19:40 am
How do I into blood megic, like every combat spell requires slaves, which I need for sweet rituals.
You've just learned the secret of blood magic - you don't use it on the battlefield. It's all about summoning up demons to kill all the things. (Minor exceptions exist - I think it's worthwhile to occasionally cast the "+4 strength to all demons" spell for big fights, for example.)
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 24, 2016, 10:23:10 am
I'm not really experienced with blood, but maybe just don't fight. Spend all the slaves on various rituals and use something else for your combat magic. Everything requires slaves and they're pretty fragile as far as "gems" go. If I get to kill several dozen slaves per battle I'm pretty happy with myself.
Post by: chaoticag on March 24, 2016, 10:39:43 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 24, 2016, 10:49:25 am
Post by: AlStar on March 24, 2016, 11:07:15 am
Casting transformation creates a up-keep free unit, right?
Correct, and also, hopefully, one that can still cast spells.
Post by: Frumple on March 24, 2016, 12:49:16 pm
Speaking of VotD, is there any way to find those unit stats on mod inspector? Wasn't linked anywhere there and it's been a while since I had seen it in action.It's these guys. (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/?page=unit&panes=unit+547@20@5&spelltype=2&pathD=1&spellgen=1&pathN=1&unitq=dead) Dead ones. Not much to 'em, really, you generally don't expect vengeance to actually directly kill anything particularly powerful (though it can wreck flimsier damaging battlefield casters pretty easily and does alright if the target doesn't have magic weapons), you expect it to outnumber them so badly the turn limit shows up and everyone dies. Or fatigue 'em out by sheer weight of bodies, if by some odd coincidence something worthing of targeting with VotD isn't fatigue neutral.
And yeah, as per AlStar re: transformation. Just remember most of the time it's going to give you a notably worse spellcaster if the one casting the ritual relies on boosters to any extent. There are some full or almost full slot transformation results, but not very many. Still, if that's not an issue, it's usually pretty good stuff. Animals tend to be beefier than humanform casters (so better battlecasters), and that's not getting into the sexy forms that are available if you get really lucky.
Post by: E. Albright on March 24, 2016, 01:08:29 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 25, 2016, 12:46:16 am
The three pretender design archetypes* (awake expander, bless, rainbow) all serve different needs. You don't need an awake expander if your troops are OP. You don't want a bless if your sacreds suck or you have a different strategy in mind. (Scales would be a sub-type, like you have to tank almost all of them to get a triple bless, if you even can)A scales build is definitely a more prominent type than rainbow.
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Rainbows are good if you have specific plans to use specific spells or items and you need someone with paths your national mages don't have, or if you just want to keep your options open as far as making boosters for some of the paths.This isn't unique to rainbows, bless pretenders unlock a lot of big magic with bless builds too, and generally it's something you want to consider for any build; you can often get something useful for relatively cheap on top of achieving another goal.
Casting transformation creates a up-keep free unit, right?Yes, this is useful for pans especially.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 25, 2016, 07:18:22 am
But I can see how you could come at it from the other direction, first asking: What scales would suit this nation best? I'm not sure that that's what you're saying, though.
P.S. You definitely don't usually need 9 in a path to unlock the big magic, and boosters will let you cast it at an even lower base path level. So while you're right that you unlock a lot with bless build, you can still make a rainbow that takes two paths to 6 along with others to 2, and unlock more than the bless build (obvious tradeoffs are obvious of course).
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 25, 2016, 08:13:34 am
It's worth noting that Transformation doesn't ALWAYS remove upkeep - worst-case scenario (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/?page=unit&panes=unit+547@20@5&spelltype=2&pathD=1&spellgen=1&pathN=1&showids=1&showmodcmds=1&showmoddinginfo=1&showkeys=1&unitkey=transformation) upkeep-wise it turns you into a 270g Forest Troll Seithberender (which is obviously only worst-case as far as upkeep goes) or a 250g Hydra (which does kinda suck slot-wise, but gives you +1N half the time and is a hydra in any case), but most of the other costs are in the 0-20 range. The bigger risk is being turned into a Feebleminded bug or foulspawn...
Ah thanks for the stats and thanks for the answers guys.
As for pretender, I go for... whats cool&flavorfull : /
Post by: cider on March 25, 2016, 12:34:41 pm
Post by: AlStar on March 25, 2016, 12:55:53 pm
I'm very much a noob to this game, and wonder if there are some general (as in, works for many nations) strategies to employ when facing large numbers of heavily armored units? Especially ways that doesn't include late game spells.Depending on just how large the groups are, lightning spells (thunder would be ideal - since otherwise you're looking at using chain lighting, which means your mages will be awfully close to the front lines) are good against heavy armor. Alternatively, if you can hit them with enough fireballs, you can hope to fatigue them out. Astral has its fatigue-causing spell, although that's fairly high up the tree.
Any spell that immobilizes should work - maws of the earth (or its low-level equivalent) can work, and I think the nature binding spell might do the same thing (not 100% on that though - it may just make them waste turns getting out without lowering defense.)
Edit: Also, acid works wonders if you've got water/fire mages. And there are the 'break armor' spells, which I believe are earth spells. Weight of stones, if the troops you're facing have low MR.
Edit^2: If you've got death mages, you can try to spam skeletons. Enough of them and the heavy armor troops will fatigue themselves out.
Post by: Cruxador on March 25, 2016, 12:58:33 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on March 25, 2016, 01:43:00 pm
(That link goes to the mod inspector and does a search for spells which contain the armor negating property anywhere in them. Some of the things returned by that search have an armor negating effect but not armor piercing damage - it searches all the effects on each spell)
If you can recruit crossbowmen, they're more effective at hurting heavily armored troops than other archers, since crossbows are armor piercing.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 25, 2016, 01:47:33 pm
I'm very much a noob to this game, and wonder if there are some general (as in, works for many nations) strategies to employ when facing large numbers of heavily armored units? Especially ways that doesn't include late game spells.
Midgame spells! :D
AlStar named some spells, but which particular spells you're likely to use vary nation to nation.
Crossbows are armour piercing (effective armour is halved), but getting those outside late age is unlikely. On the strategic end, massing armoured troops can be difficult and they're often MM1. You could possibly simply outmanoeuvre them and avoid direct confrontation in favour of raiding the hell out of them. Again the effectiveness of this varies based on a particular nation v nation matchup.
I find it difficult to give general advice in Dominions. Abysia vs Arco plays different from Abysia vs Pan, and even Abysia vs Arco (early game) plays different from Abysia vs Arco (late game).
Post by: Shadowlord on March 25, 2016, 03:12:03 pm
I don't think I've seen them in the early age.
Post by: cider on March 25, 2016, 05:24:42 pm
Post by: AlStar on March 29, 2016, 09:55:42 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 29, 2016, 09:59:39 am
Post by: Shadowlord on March 29, 2016, 10:18:09 am
http://dom4archive.kermodebear.org/www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/mind-hunt.html has some other suggestions, like boosting the MR of the units being mind hunted.
Post by: AlStar on March 29, 2016, 11:22:12 am
You may have a province with indie astral mages in it, if you haven't checked them. (Or maybe you have checked and you already know that you don't)Astral indies are rare enough that finding them is something that I take very seriously and exploit ASAP.
Actually, I try to do that for just about any non-shaman indies I find. Only exception I've run into so far is finding a Temple of the Solar Bull - Heliodromus are 90g, which gets you 1F 1F/N 10%F mages ... which would be great, except that they're also heretic 2 and poor researching. While any 2F or 3F results would be easy to put to good use on the front lines, I'm unwilling to deal with the nearly 50% of 1F1N poor researching heretics I'd also end up with.
But okay, back to the mind hunt - it looks like I'm doing all I can for the moment - just got to throw as many commanders in there as possible and hope that my important commanders don't get unlucky.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 31, 2016, 02:45:15 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 31, 2016, 03:13:23 am
Post by: Mithras on March 31, 2016, 04:39:59 am
Sceleria has several good candidates for blesses, if I had to do it again I'd probably go for an S9 bless to resist MR negates undead killers in the midgame while pumping up survivability in expansion with twist fate. I'd say Shadow vestals are good enough for a single bless to make them very effective (whether that be water, death or astral. I'm not so sure about nature) however they are best mixed with normal troops and capital only so I wouldn't go for a double bless because good scales means Sceleria can leverage all it's advantages, silly vestals, tough troops, a sea of indy priest summoned undead, big death/holy/astral communions. All that tends to eat up a lot of gold.
That said I've only played two multiplayer games with Sceleria, one was with a blood nine bless (not sure what I was thinking) and had only three players, my expansion was so insane I won the game before player conflict broke out. The other one was the abortive team game. So I guess the takeaway from that is, vestals are good for expansion (probably even without a bless) if you watch your scripting you can get an expansion party out every turn from turn 1 if you really want to. The question is, how much of a target do you want to paint on yourself? Once you paint that target I don't really have the experience to help you.
Post by: Karlito on March 31, 2016, 01:50:57 pm
Sceleria has several good candidates for blesses, if I had to do it again I'd probably go for an S9 bless to resist MR negates undead killers in the midgame while pumping up survivability in expansion with twist fate.
Which MR-negates undead killers would those be? Vestals already have 15MR to protect against banishment spam, and if someone's invested enough into Thaum to cast Control the Dead, they'll be able to throw around Wither Bones soon enough.
I think a blood bless on Vestals isn't as ridiculous as you think. It makes conventional evocations against them problematic, which would otherwise be one of the best ways to counter them.
Post by: chaoticag on March 31, 2016, 03:38:50 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 31, 2016, 03:43:48 pm
The most important thing for a blood bless is gold to health ratio and that's terrible on Shadow Vestals. To put it in perspective, a lot of evocations are at least AoE 1 which means if they hit a shadow vestal square they could potentially do 105 gold of damage to you; there are evocation mages that are cheaper than that. It would also be a worthless bless during expansion.Sceleria has several good candidates for blesses, if I had to do it again I'd probably go for an S9 bless to resist MR negates undead killers in the midgame while pumping up survivability in expansion with twist fate.
Which MR-negates undead killers would those be? Vestals already have 15MR to protect against banishment spam, and if someone's invested enough into Thaum to cast Control the Dead, they'll be able to throw around Wither Bones soon enough.
I think a blood bless on Vestals isn't as ridiculous as you think. It makes conventional evocations against them problematic, which would otherwise be one of the best ways to counter them.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 31, 2016, 04:22:40 pm
Of course the real treat with Vestals is that they're stealthy. Those girls bust PD for breakfast. So I don't know, maybe W9 is back on the menu.
Post by: E. Albright on March 31, 2016, 04:50:41 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 31, 2016, 05:14:28 pm
Could be worth it to forge a few shademails just for variety, but those raiding parties get expensive awfully fast. Probably smarter to not get a bless with PD smashing in mind then. Oh well, there's always Pan...
Post by: Frumple on March 31, 2016, 07:53:18 pm
You have to remember: If you have one stealthy teleporting S4 in a bush, you have stealthy teleporting S4s in all the bushes. Schroedinger's feeblemind :V
Post by: Shadowlord on March 31, 2016, 10:36:04 pm
* I was going to check the inspector to be sure, but I'm getting a down for maintenance error from it.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 31, 2016, 10:53:57 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 01, 2016, 12:20:14 am
Honestly, MA Caelum's best bet vs. vestals may be the blizzard warriors. The high precision may actually do better than the melee fighters. Try to bury them in light infantry, perhaps...
I wouldn't even remotely want to try to take caelum into a straight up fight with sceleria, though, unless it was very early. Lightning evo could do a lot vs. undead hoards, but storm+darkness is kinda' painless for sceleria and kicks caelum right in the teeth. Though getting storm for 'em without pretender intervention would be a little rough. Not exactly impossible -- they've got the potential for A2 and astral rings -- but relatively improbable. Still, it'd probably be a pretty nasty match up for caelum, imo, especially if they didn't manage to get an early handle on sceleria's reanimator production. I'd probably be considering investment into seeking arrow spam...
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 01, 2016, 09:31:26 am
Any places to search for remnants?
Post by: Shadowlord on April 01, 2016, 10:05:50 am
Although, oddly, desura is loading for me again. It's just taking forever to do so.
Post by: Frumple on April 01, 2016, 10:29:36 am
Post by: E. Albright on April 01, 2016, 10:33:39 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 03, 2016, 03:26:47 am
Post by: Cruxador on April 03, 2016, 03:41:24 am
Will the endgame spells mod work on highly outdated version of game? (4.10, before Therodos was in game)Quickest way to find out is to try it.
Post by: JimboM12 on April 03, 2016, 04:10:26 pm
Personally, I like the Middle Ages Kingdom of Man, as they're basically early medieval ages England. And they come off as somewhat heroic as the witches help people and the whole shining knights thing with their leaders/elite units and strong nature emphasis. They're fairly well balanced on their troop tree, but their spell selection comes off as narrow. A favorite of mine is to fight against MA Ermor; shining knights and men-at-arms with noble witches and treants vs undead legions is a pretty awesome thing.
As for most powerful; tbh I have no idea.
Post by: chaoticag on April 03, 2016, 04:19:47 pm
Anyway, favorites.... I like Marignon's vibe of Inquisition and purity in the middle ages, then goetic in the latter ages, but I never really played them much to be honest. In terms of the ones I've played, MA ermor is a lot of fun, but people are predisposed to hating it in multiplayer games (and for good reason).
Post by: Frumple on April 03, 2016, 05:23:17 pm
Asphodel's probably my favorite of them. Freespawn, still has solid recruitable troops (including flying scouts, heaps of stealth units, and longbows), tougher than normal (for freespawn nations) chaff, cheap reanimators that are fairly durable, tons and tons of nature access, nearly as much death access plus a dabbling of earth and water, some neat national spells. They're just hella' fun and plenty strong.
And yeah, most powerful is a very very malleable thing. I think there's a tier list (or several) out there somewhere, but the game being like it is there's no real singular nation that stands out on top -- all of them have some other, similarly powerful, nation that probably have (easier) access to specific tricks that really cause problems for the nation trying to claim supremacy.
Post by: Burnt Pies on April 03, 2016, 05:58:56 pm
Otherwise, the giant nations. Gath, Hinnom and... whatever the other one's called. Lots of fire, lots of astral, some pretty cool specialised mages, tons of HP and pretty good thuggery potential, though I'm kinda bad with the LA variant. But hell, I'm bad with most LA things. I don't make the best use of humans, and my army commanding is rather bad.
I guess that's why I like thugging so much.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 03, 2016, 07:22:10 pm
I've piddled around with this game and have a decent understanding of the mechanics and I'm sure this has cropped up earlier in the thread somewhere, but what is everyone's favorite factions (including time period) and what faction does everyone feel is most *powerful*?That depends on who you're playing with. Large games, small games, and disciple games all have very different metas. And which groups you play with matter a lot. Bay12 tends to be laid back in diplomacy and let people live early on, but I've heard of groups that aggressively eliminate strong lategame factions, and gang up on people soley for the land very early on. The board game logic of playing the table is just as important as understanding the game mechanics (which is also very important).
For example, nations that don't have big bad mages or any way to break into strong lategame paths are almost predestined to lose in 8+ player FFAs. But those same nations could surf to victory off of a strong first war in smaller games.
Post by: Karlito on April 04, 2016, 01:58:52 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 04, 2016, 02:16:56 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 04, 2016, 06:03:33 am
Growth scales - in human-MP your bascially screwed if you take them, since they only make your lands more attractive to others and the points are better used elsewhere, right? Just wondering how many mistakes I made before the game already started.
Post by: Culise on April 04, 2016, 07:35:13 am
Post by: Cruxador on April 04, 2016, 11:46:43 am
I enjoy astral and nature nations, so anything thats pan, mostly because if you just spam minotaurs you can't do anything wrong.Growth is one of the strongest scales. It's certainly the best for gold, though luck provides gems and other benefits as well, and is boosted when coupled with order, and Magic is great for reasons entirely unrelated to income. It's true that you make your own provinces better for anyone who conquers them, but you make them better for yourself as well.
Growth scales - in human-MP your bascially screwed if you take them, since they only make your lands more attractive to others and the points are better used elsewhere, right? Just wondering how many mistakes I made before the game already started.
Growth actually works out to be better than Order if you're going to be in the game longer than...ten or twenty turns, I believe; I cannot recall the math off the top of my head. It's even better still for blood nations, since those can leverage the extra population directly as well as the resulting income. The main benefit of Order is that it's front-loaded; you get most of its benefit in the early game, when most players typically need it most.It actually depends on rate of expansion and dominion spread, but the calculated "typical" results gives you a better income on turn 16 and better total gold earned on turn 23. If your expansion is limited earlier, growth will matter more. If you expand faster (unlikely, with the assumed rates of expansion) order will matter more.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 04, 2016, 01:32:15 pm
(It's better not to patrol with blood hunting, I think, since patrolling kills pop and ties up your armies)
Personally MA Agartha is one of my favorite nations, but I keep playing different nations to get some experience with them all, etc. MA Marignon is fairly easy to understand but pretty powerful. OTOH it's probably also easy to predict and counter, in theory, if you have the spells or units to counter it. (I outmaneuvered and beat Caelum with Marignon, taking enough of their thrones to win that game, but I also got two other nations to gang up on them, one of which was R'lyeh, so it wasn't really just a Marignon vs Caelum fight.)
P.S. Diplomacy is best weapon and best defense in games where it's a thing.
Post by: Cruxador on April 04, 2016, 02:32:13 pm
(It's better not to patrol with blood hunting, I think, since patrolling kills pop and ties up your armies)This is definitely wrong. If you don't patrol, unrest skyrockets. Not patrolling means either that you accept having no income (by leaving unrest to grow unchecked) along with some bad events, or you let your blood income be tiny (by not hunting places with high unrest) and also have very limited income. Killing your pop is bad for income, but it's not nearly as bad as unrest, and conquering new land can make up the difference. You wouldn't generally be using your main armies to patrol anyway, but summoning cheap troops without upkeep specifically for that purpose.
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MA Marignon is ... pretty powerful.Out of the 48 recorded games in which MA Marignon was played, they won zero. Marignon has poor access to magic, flagellants are too weak to be useful and knights of the chalice too expensive. Their angels are more cheaply acquired through a wish than through the national summon spells, and that's the sum total of what Marignon has going for them as far as I can tell. The only "obvious" strategy I know for them would be W9 knights, and spam some fire evocation as support. I don't see how you're going to be able to get enough numbers with this to do well against a competent player, though, and it won't hold up well against serious battle magic.
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(I outmaneuvered and beat Caelum with Marignon, taking enough of their thrones to win that gameSubmit the details here, then: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jHX_ZoJi6zIvDq6ANdp-W1Y89W5_fmShuDyHmAj5qC4/viewform (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jHX_ZoJi6zIvDq6ANdp-W1Y89W5_fmShuDyHmAj5qC4/viewform)
I imagine that the folks who address balance would like to hear how exactly you did it and any thoughts you might have about the nation. Your experience is obviously not typical, and I suspect that Caelum probably was not played well (basic thunderstrike spam should have been enough to wipe out a typical Marignon army) but if nothing else, having won a game as Marignon makes your experience worth sharing.
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P.S. Diplomacy is best weapon and best defense in games where it's a thing.It's not a good indicator of nation strength, though.
Post by: Cruxador on April 04, 2016, 02:33:06 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 04, 2016, 02:33:52 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 04, 2016, 04:39:32 pm
I accepted having no income in those provinces, and kept other high-income provinces for income. I didn't need income for anything other than spamming temples and labs, and recruiting mages, for the most part, since all my troops at that point were coming from summoning.(It's better not to patrol with blood hunting, I think, since patrolling kills pop and ties up your armies)This is definitely wrong. If you don't patrol, unrest skyrockets. Not patrolling means either that you accept having no income (by leaving unrest to grow unchecked) along with some bad events, or you let your blood income be tiny (by not hunting places with high unrest) and also have very limited income. Killing your pop is bad for income, but it's not nearly as bad as unrest, and conquering new land can make up the difference. You wouldn't generally be using your main armies to patrol anyway, but summoning cheap troops without upkeep specifically for that purpose.
Recorded? People record their games?MA Marignon is ... pretty powerful.Out of the 48 recorded games in which MA Marignon was played, they won zero.
Marignon has poor access to magic, flagellants are too weak to be useful and knights of the chalice too expensive.I never recruited flagellants or knights of the chalice. I used the orange knights instead ("Royal Guard"), which have better protection, cost less gold, and aren't cap-only, so if you have the gold you can recruit them from multiple forts to spread out the resource cost. ... I mostly used them as heavy chaff with lances, though.
Their angels are more cheaply acquired through a wish than through the national summon spellsI don't really understand how you can come to that conclusion.
The Angelic Host spell costs 50 pearls and gives you the H3 Archangel commander along with 6 Angels of the Host (units). If you only want the Archangel, you can get him with Wish for 100, but it gives him to you as a unit, so he's useless for claiming thrones and shit, so you have to blow another 25 pearls on Divine Name to make him a commander...
If you are looking at the Seraph, which is summoned by the 144 pearl Heavenly Choir spell, then yeah, you can get him cheaper with Wish + Divine Name. You'd be missing the 9 angels of the heavenly choir and 3 harbingers, though.
To be fair, I wasn't interested in the angels beyond the Archangel's use for rapid throne-claiming.
The only "obvious" strategy I know for them would be W9 knights, and spam some fire evocation as support. I don't see how you're going to be able to get enough numbers with this to do well against a competent player, though, and it won't hold up well against serious battle magic.I thought crossbows in a line with flaming arrows with strong scales to enable pumping out massive amounts of them would be obvious, but okay.
Perhaps. It was a 5-player game, however, and not with expert-level players - and like I said, diplomacy made it easier since Caelum took losses defending against other players' attacks, as well as mine. (That thing you linked, which I don't think I've seen before, says it isn't interested in games with less than 6 players, which is fine, but I've mainly been playing games with less players lately)(I outmaneuvered and beat Caelum with Marignon, taking enough of their thrones to win that gameSubmit the details here, then: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jHX_ZoJi6zIvDq6ANdp-W1Y89W5_fmShuDyHmAj5qC4/viewform (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jHX_ZoJi6zIvDq6ANdp-W1Y89W5_fmShuDyHmAj5qC4/viewform)
I imagine that the folks who address balance would like to hear how exactly you did it and any thoughts you might have about the nation. Your experience is obviously not typical, and I suspect that Caelum probably was not played well (basic thunderstrike spam should have been enough to wipe out a typical Marignon army) but if nothing else, having won a game as Marignon makes your experience worth sharing.
Edit: fixed a broken quote tag, and re-added the author+link+date tags to the quotes
Post by: Cruxador on April 04, 2016, 08:19:50 pm
Recruiting mages is kind of a big deal, though.I accepted having no income in those provinces, and kept other high-income provinces for income. I didn't need income for anything other than spamming temples and labs, and recruiting mages, for the most part, since all my troops at that point were coming from summoning.(It's better not to patrol with blood hunting, I think, since patrolling kills pop and ties up your armies)This is definitely wrong. If you don't patrol, unrest skyrockets. Not patrolling means either that you accept having no income (by leaving unrest to grow unchecked) along with some bad events, or you let your blood income be tiny (by not hunting places with high unrest) and also have very limited income. Killing your pop is bad for income, but it's not nearly as bad as unrest, and conquering new land can make up the difference. You wouldn't generally be using your main armies to patrol anyway, but summoning cheap troops without upkeep specifically for that purpose.
Recorded? People record their games?[/quote]"Reported" might have been a better choice of word. That would be using the form I linked, and you can see the results here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlrvyEqLFYIaXRc49TheMmfdoP8jEh1m5rZJHJAzDWQ/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlrvyEqLFYIaXRc49TheMmfdoP8jEh1m5rZJHJAzDWQ/edit?usp=sharing)MA Marignon is ... pretty powerful.Out of the 48 recorded games in which MA Marignon was played, they won zero.
It's considered to be very useful information for balance purposes.
Their angels are more cheaply acquired through a wish than through the national summon spellsI don't really understand how you can come to that conclusion.
The Angelic Host spell costs 50 pearls and gives you the H3 Archangel commander along with 6 Angels of the Host (units). If you only want the Archangel, you can get him with Wish for 100, but it gives him to you as a unit, so he's useless for claiming thrones and shit, so you have to blow another 25 pearls on Divine Name to make him a commander...
If you are looking at the Seraph, which is summoned by the 144 pearl Heavenly Choir spell, then yeah, you can get him cheaper with Wish + Divine Name. You'd be missing the 9 angels of the heavenly choir and 3 harbingers, though.
To be fair, I wasn't interested in the angels beyond the Archangel's use for rapid throne-claiming.[/quote]The lower-level angels don't add a lot to nation strength in my opinion. You get air access that way, but in general they're nothing special as national summons go. I guess they're good for throne-rushing but since you already have H3 (which moves as fast as your armies), that's more of a little logistical helper than anything.
The only "obvious" strategy I know for them would be W9 knights, and spam some fire evocation as support. I don't see how you're going to be able to get enough numbers with this to do well against a competent player, though, and it won't hold up well against serious battle magic.I thought crossbows in a line with flaming arrows with strong scales to enable pumping out massive amounts of them would be obvious, but okay.[/quote]Oh, yeah. Seems like less of a strategy than just the default, but flaming arrows and crossbows can cut through a lot in the early game.
Perhaps. It was a 5-player game, however, and not with expert-level players - and like I said, diplomacy made it easier since Caelum took losses defending against other players' attacks, as well as mine. (That thing you linked, which I don't think I've seen before, says it isn't interested in games with less than 6 players, which is fine, but I've mainly been playing games with less players lately)[/quote]Yeah, a small game where diplo was the main deciding factor makes sense. How many turns did this take?(I outmaneuvered and beat Caelum with Marignon, taking enough of their thrones to win that gameSubmit the details here, then: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jHX_ZoJi6zIvDq6ANdp-W1Y89W5_fmShuDyHmAj5qC4/viewform (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jHX_ZoJi6zIvDq6ANdp-W1Y89W5_fmShuDyHmAj5qC4/viewform)
I imagine that the folks who address balance would like to hear how exactly you did it and any thoughts you might have about the nation. Your experience is obviously not typical, and I suspect that Caelum probably was not played well (basic thunderstrike spam should have been enough to wipe out a typical Marignon army) but if nothing else, having won a game as Marignon makes your experience worth sharing.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 04, 2016, 08:42:38 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 04, 2016, 09:33:15 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 04, 2016, 09:58:34 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 04, 2016, 11:40:53 pm
(It's better not to patrol with blood hunting, I think, since patrolling kills pop and ties up your armies)
[...]
I accepted having no income in those provinces, and kept other high-income provinces for income. I didn't need income for anything other than spamming temples and labs, and recruiting mages, for the most part, since all my troops at that point were coming from summoning.
Um, you do know that unrest reduces blood hunting success and effectiveness, don't you?
Post by: Shadowlord on April 04, 2016, 11:59:11 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 05, 2016, 05:21:17 am
Also managing all those skellingtons is pain in demonic ass.
What has best synergy with skill in death magic?
Does blood magic skill affect mages somehow?
Is plague battlefield spell devastating?
Is BLESSED THUG LIFE viable strategy for Lemuria ?
Turmoil + luck seems more effective then just order 3, does anybody have calculations for this stuff?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 05, 2016, 07:29:24 am
Is there any point in Lanka province defence? It gets BRUTALLY SMASHED just by basic ea tien chi human troops.PD provides some unrest reduction and patrol strength. Sometimes the bodies can be useful. And you only use Lanka PD on your forts, everywhere else it's based on indie troops. But in general I'm not a fan of huge PD and that doesn't change much when looking at Lanka.
Also managing all those skellingtons is pain in demonic ass.Fair enough. 'n' key helps, but there's still a lot of clicking around. Have you looked at nations with lots of D but no reanimators? They give you death focus without the drudgery of organizing all your permanent chaff. EA has some cool nations for that, C'tis, Ermor and Sauromatia spring to mind. Research Horde of Skeletons from enchantment school and you get a renewed wall of chaff for every battle.
What has best synergy with skill in death magic?You mean which spells scale best? I'm a big fan of Shadow Blast at evoc-5. It scales really well, has huge AoE and does AN damage. Only downside is that it checks for MR. In my experience high D skill, penetration gear and huge AoE compensate enough for that. Oh and it costs a gem to cast. Totally worth it for big mages. Best for your D9 pretender but any elite mage with D3 or D4 and penetration gear gets results.
Turmoil + luck seems more effective then just order 3, does anybody have calculations for this stuff?They do different things. Order is better if you want gold. Luck gives random stuff at random intervals. Turmoil just ups the event frequency while giving you less gold. Certain events also require certain scales so they can happen. I don't have a list handy right now, but I remember seeing one somewhere at some point.
Post by: Frumple on April 05, 2016, 07:44:52 am
Aspho is really easy to beat though. Hell, you really only have to keep them from expanding, and they'll burn out, even with growth scales."Only have to keep them from expanding" is how you stop... pretty much everyone :P
So far as aspho goes, though, so long as they've got that 8 nature income (well, and nothing's killing their reanimators), they're still growing. Despite everything, they're still largely a gem nation, not a gold one, and their chaff hordes are dependent on their centaurs, not their provinces. They don't really take growth for the gold, they take it to make their A spam better. They don't actually need that much space to be really painful to deal with, just time to build up the centaurs. And once that happens you're dealing with sceleria levels of chaff, with somewhat less numbers but much, much better units.
... also it's something of a bastard to stop them from expanding if they really want to. Remember, they've got bucketloads of stealth. If they want to bypass your blockade and go nabbing provinces on the other side of the map, they kiiiiinda' can.
As for your questions, SC, blessed thug life is pretty much entirely viable for lemuria. It's... honestly one of the few things they're actually good at -- consuls are freaking amazing for their cost and research, and being the sort of nation it is you're probably tanking your scales (except magic and luck, at least) into the ground anyway, so a double or triple bless is easy to nab up. Consuls are brutal for early expansion, though -- they can easily solo most indie provinces without a bless, nevermind with one.
Blood magic does effect mages. It... should be in the manual, actually. Have forgotten exactly what it does at the moment, though. Probably strength, maybe age mitigation. And it definitely gives you some undead/demon command, though iirc not as much as death levels do.
Turmoil/luck is definitely less gold effective than order 3 (and also less gold effective than order/luck, heh, since there's some serious gold gain events when you've got order scales), though I do forget the calculations. It's pretty alright with getting other things, though -- gems, items, mages of various sorts, etc. Just don't take turmoil 3. Never take turmoil 3.
E: Oh, and plague is... not very devastating. It doesn't really do much for the battle itself, it just diseases a bunch of stuff and makes the afterbattle more of a hassle. Good for harassment and attrition, less good for winning a fight directly. Cast and retreat is effective enough for neutering armies, though, especially if you can get A2 from somewhere and give your plague casters flight boots. I'd rather have my S3 grand lemurs palling around with a buncha' bane venom charm carrying black servants or somethin', m'self :P
Post by: Mithras on April 05, 2016, 07:53:50 am
Seems like from a cost efficiency basis it makes sense to at least keep an army of patrollers who's upkeep is less than the value of the province. From a blood hunting efficiency point of view once your unrest is 100 the straight chance of failure is 25% according to the manual. That means for every four bloodhunters you are paying one to just make people angry, and without managing unrest you can get to a hundred unrest in three or four turns, seeing as the unrest generated by succeeding at blood hunting is 1-(3xthe number of blood slaves collected+4) it would take on average 132 blood slaves collected before the chance of failing a blood hunt in that province is 50% from unrest alone and 265 blood slaves before blood hunting was entirely shut down by unrest. Now this is assuming that the passive things that reduce unrest balance unrest caused by failed blood hunting. This becomes less and less true as unrest rises because it causes more failed blood hunting.
Post by: Mithras on April 05, 2016, 07:58:09 am
Post by: Shadowlord on April 05, 2016, 10:56:12 am
The blood hunting without patrolling things really puzzles me. So pros, you don't have to acquire a patrolling force and pay upkeep, you don't have to occasionally move when your population drops below 4000. Cons you lose income, you lose blood income, and if you're lazy like me you lost the ability to recruit mages in the blood hunting province (building a lab is a small price to pay for not having to aggressively micro)
Seems like from a cost efficiency basis it makes sense to at least keep an army of patrollers who's upkeep is less than the value of the province. From a blood hunting efficiency point of view once your unrest is 100 the straight chance of failure is 25% according to the manual. That means for every four bloodhunters you are paying one to just make people angry, and without managing unrest you can get to a hundred unrest in three or four turns, seeing as the unrest generated by succeeding at blood hunting is 1-(3xthe number of blood slaves collected+4) it would take on average 132 blood slaves collected before the chance of failing a blood hunt in that province is 50% from unrest alone and 265 blood slaves before blood hunting was entirely shut down by unrest. Now this is assuming that the passive things that reduce unrest balance unrest caused by failed blood hunting. This becomes less and less true as unrest rises because it causes more failed blood hunting.
For much of the game I only had one or two B1 blood hunters per province (it seemed to work best with just one), although they were effectively B2s due to the xibalban blood hunting bonus, which meant there'd be less unrest without slaves. As a result, PD plus Order 3 were sufficient to keep unrest fairly low.
Unrest only became a problem when I started farming provinces with significantly more hunters to increase my blood income, which increased it rapidly in the short term, but then started to decrease it again as unrest rose. I could have raised armies to patrol, yes. I didn't because I was spending the gold on more important things and didn't really need additional slaves that badly - and taking more territory was providing me with new places to farm anyways.
The province with the highest unrest (and the most blood hunters) at the end of that game had 271 unrest, and 13 blood hunters (half of them effective B3s with 100% level checks, the rest effective B2s with 90% level checks, because ea xibalba) - but that was the result of me taking all blood mages off of research after I finished researching every research topic in the game.
That was a very abnormal game, though. It was a fairly large map, with 5 players, and the throne settings were set to make it a long game. The player right next to me was EA Pangaea with a double water+fire bless, and they took two forts of mine with super-centaurs, but then said that they couldn't remember what they were planning to do, and went AI. The AI proved inept and didn't really properly use or even produce the super-centaurs. If they'd invaded me before I had mass demon summoning instead of going AI I'd probably have been screwed. In the end I dom-killed everyone with blood sac, but also had enough slaves for demon knight + storm demon armies.
I'll note that in my first attempt at ea xibalba I tried blood hunting my capital, and patrolling to keep unrest down, and it decimated my population and gold income despite controlling unrest, which is why the second time I played them I (a) didn't blood hunt my capital, and (b) didn't patrol.
Post by: Mithras on April 05, 2016, 12:12:39 pm
Also a game where you win by domkilling everyone sounds depressingly long. It's a pity that that is the paradox of dominions, there's a whole load of cool stuff late game, but late game is a terrible place for a player's soul.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 05, 2016, 12:39:18 pm
Post by: AlStar on April 05, 2016, 12:47:16 pm
The easiest way to get a bunch of patrollers is to use call of the winds - 10 air gems gets you an entire flock which can easily deal with unrest, even from several high level blood hunters working in the same province.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 05, 2016, 12:49:47 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 05, 2016, 04:23:27 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 05, 2016, 04:30:19 pm
Yeah, xibala make for really shitty patrollers.Actually, iirc even with the penalty, junky precision, and mildly low AP zotz are still slightly better than average patrollers (compared to say, indie militia), if only barely. Flight counts for a lot.
Their warriors work just fine for keeping a blood hunt province under control, you just need a good handful (20+, which is still quite cheap) of them.
Post by: E. Albright on April 05, 2016, 05:45:40 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 05, 2016, 05:56:57 pm
... mind, it still only takes a few dozen zotz (which is basically nothing, heh) to hold down a blood province, so far as I've noticed. You can do the same a little cheaper with militia, but it's much easier to get zotz places. I wouldn't think the zotz nations would have much trouble with unrest control, basically.
Though in mild retrospect, I'm now kinda' wondering who does. The patrolling part of blood hunting has always seemed to be pretty trivial to manage (dump a stack of native indies or bring in one of your own set of cheapos, boom, you're done). It's just the rest of it (well, mostly figuring out the right balance between hunters and the province being eaten) that's a PitA :V
also, there's totally three different identically named millitia that range from are totally 10/10 to 10/12, so their strength could actually be a bit over 1, heh.
Post by: E. Albright on April 05, 2016, 06:14:53 pm
It's also worth noting that you're paying more per unit for the zotz on top of them being worse (7g vs. 8g), but if you're comparing them to random non-militia indies you're a lot closer to getting what you pay for in re: patrolling (plus let's not forget that zotz can actually be used for other things...)
Post by: Frumple on April 05, 2016, 06:27:02 pm
MA has to get them from forests, but still, heh.
Though yeah, the ability to use zotz for something else besides causing morale routs for your army (and breaking down walls, I guess) is... nice.
... though now I'm kinda' wondering if utterdark or perpetual storm (or dark skies, I guess) effects patrolling numbers. Does the game even notice that sort of thing?
Post by: Shadowlord on April 05, 2016, 07:15:02 pm
Although that said, I was also only hiring the green ones (guards? The ones you need a fort to recruit) because they were less awful in battle and could actually beat most indies, in ea anyways.
Post by: AlStar on April 06, 2016, 11:14:32 pm
I'm 50% concerned that if the bodyguards die, the SC will flee, and 50% concerned that if I don't give my SC bodyguards, that he'll get killed before he decides it's time to leave.
Post by: Mithras on April 07, 2016, 12:37:46 am
Post by: Frumple on April 07, 2016, 07:49:53 am
Totally theorycrafting here (IGNORE ME!) - but would it be better to send a SC by themselves, or with a couple of demon bodyguards?Actual SCs usually work better solo, yeah, if they're not being used to supplement an army. As you kinda' noticed, routing is a pretty serious issue with SCs that bring friends along. If you're going to have bodyguards, you'll probably want more than just a couple, heh, unless those are rather incredibly beefy bodyguards (i.e. you're just using packs of SCs instead of solo ones, which is just fine if you can afford it :P).
I'm 50% concerned that if the bodyguards die, the SC will flee, and 50% concerned that if I don't give my SC bodyguards, that he'll get killed before he decides it's time to leave.
That said, if you're intending for it to retreat anyway, it might not be that big of a deal if they bug out early. It's mostly a problem when you don't intend for that, and/or there's no escape routes available.
Post by: E. Albright on April 07, 2016, 09:25:01 am
That kinda turned out as the worst of both of your anticipated scenarios...
Post by: AlStar on April 07, 2016, 12:05:42 pm
Edit: Trying to decide if I like the Scutata Volturnus - I mean, it's better then plain Black Steel or Weightless, and I don't have the nature for an Eye or Vine shield, which would be the obvious choices, Gleaming Gold wouldn't have helped against undead chaff anyway... Hmm, I dunno. Looking through all my options, Charcoal might've been a good choice. The single lightning bolt each turn just seemed underwhelming.
Post by: E. Albright on April 07, 2016, 01:11:54 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 07, 2016, 02:10:23 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 07, 2016, 02:29:05 pm
If I retreat will Lammashtas or battle summoned horrors stay in battle?
What are good cast and retreat spells?
What is the spell, which makes every forest spread your dominion and attack enemy with animals, trolls and vinemen? Will this synergize with fuck you dominions like 3 cold 3 death insanity spreading or with ermor/ ctis toxic stuff?
Post by: Shadowlord on April 07, 2016, 02:43:00 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 07, 2016, 03:00:48 pm
As to cast and retreat, basically anything that's battlefield wide and a single turn effect -- earthquake, mass enslave, solar brilliance, etc., etc., etc. Most of the lingering stuff will cut off once the caster retreats. Bonus points if they don't have a means of healing affliction and the spell causes them (plague, solar brilliance again, and so on). You can do it earlier with non-battlefield wide stuff, it's just riskier and generally not as effective.
And yeah, horror marking in general is kinda' iffy, especially compared to disease and whatnot. The flip side to that is that disease and afflictions can be, well, countered. Horror marks and seeds are pretty much forever, and you can't really get rid of them short of getting the afflicted killed off. Also blood tends to be really nice for just spewing those kinds of things all over the place -- leprosy may be 20 times better, but a blood nation may just be able to cast horror seed 20 times more than they can cast leprosy :P S'all about access and what the target can manage, basically.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 07, 2016, 03:12:39 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 07, 2016, 03:17:27 pm
E: Though testing it definitely looks like they can't. Nevermind, then, haha!
Post by: Amuys on April 08, 2016, 02:53:59 am
Better to just spam Send Horror with Astral Corruption up. It's a...10% chance of sending a Doom Horror instead of a regular horror with AC up I think? Or just send a Defiler of Dreams or a Harvester of Sorrows at the fort.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 08, 2016, 05:47:03 am
What about using several horror seeds on mage center?( well, however, leprosy is just thaum 6 and does job 20 times better)
If I retreat will Lammashtas or battle summoned horrors stay in battle?
What are good cast and retreat spells?
Just never cast horror seed, in my test I never saw it hit a commander, even with 10-ish commanders and 5 groups in the target area.
As for cast&retreat, dunno - I thought earthquake was a good one, but I tested it in Round18 and ... the caster killed himself and nothing else happend at all.
Post by: Frumple on April 08, 2016, 09:27:10 am
It's honestly almost demoralizing to watch a horror pop up in the middle of a bunch of PD and instantly die to militia/light infantry.
Dream horrors, though. Dream horrors are the way to go. Cheaper than the seed, hard to catch (they're stealth 80!), jacks the unrest straight through the roof, and even if someone finds them they'll at least do a bit of damage instead of being immediately surrounded and poked to death. They're basically monster boars on steroids. Only problem is taking the province once it's been shut down and wrecked by unrest -- then you have however many dream horrors infesting the province to deal with, ahaha.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 08, 2016, 11:22:27 am
As for cast&retreat, dunno - I thought earthquake was a good one, but I tested it in Round18 and ... the caster killed himself and nothing else happend at all.
Who did you cast it with? I've had good experiences with a pair of pans casting an earthquake before bravely hopping away. And I think you really want those two casts. Humans have good odds of surviving a single quake as it's only 8AP. I don't use human HP mages to cast EQ unless I can flight them somehow.
Post by: Cruxador on April 08, 2016, 11:27:41 am
It's not really for normal battle cases anyway. It's for taking out SCs. That is much less important now than in Dominions 3 though.What about using several horror seeds on mage center?( well, however, leprosy is just thaum 6 and does job 20 times better)
If I retreat will Lammashtas or battle summoned horrors stay in battle?
What are good cast and retreat spells?
Just never cast horror seed, in my test I never saw it hit a commander, even with 10-ish commanders and 5 groups in the target area.
Earthquake also does a lot more damage in caves, and Agarthan units have good HP. Slap some nice armor on an oracle and he can really fuck armies up even unsupported. Only reason this isn't more valuable is because if you have an oracle handy, then you probably have an army too.As for cast&retreat, dunno - I thought earthquake was a good one, but I tested it in Round18 and ... the caster killed himself and nothing else happend at all.
Who did you cast it with? I've had good experiences with a pair of pans casting an earthquake before bravely hopping away. And I think you really want those two casts. Humans have good odds of surviving a single quake as it's only 8AP. I don't use human HP mages to cast EQ unless I can flight them somehow.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 08, 2016, 12:22:00 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 08, 2016, 01:11:37 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 08, 2016, 02:09:53 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 08, 2016, 02:17:32 pm
Rain of Stones is another possibility, but it's harder to not die to, and for some target armies a single casting may not kill anything (except the squishy mage who is casting it - for humans, even if wearing armor, especially). It also seems to only hit about half the squares on the battlefield, but against certain kinds of armies it's still effective at eliminating half their number with one casting.Yeah, RoS is the go-to for a reason.
If you can cast RoS, you can forge a ring of floating or suchlike for your EQ caster...It's generally easier to spam RoS casters, and harder to counter them. Paying more for something less effective is seldom your best option.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 08, 2016, 03:02:42 pm
Post by: AlStar on April 08, 2016, 07:19:49 pm
I had an Arch Devil do a combat drop into a defensive army and cast fire storm. Unfortunately, even though I didn't tell him to be stingy with his gems, he decided to save 2 gems and go all the way up to 200 fatigue. This could have been fine, but a single water elemental ran ahead of the enemy army and, while my devil was still peacefully sleeping, killed him instantly.
End score: 1 Arch Devil (99 slaves) and 1 Devil (5 slaves) for 630 gold in enemy mages, 145 gold in commanders, and ~500 gold in chaff. Honestly, I'd call this a loss - especially if any of the gear my SC was wearing got salvaged.
Post by: E. Albright on April 08, 2016, 08:21:18 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 09, 2016, 11:30:59 am
How knowledge of path decreases fatigue for spell?
How far in research/ province capturing should I be in the end of first year to be able to compete in multiplayer?
Post by: chaoticag on April 09, 2016, 11:49:17 am
Wait, you can decrease spell fatigue with dem gems?
How knowledge of path decreases fatigue for spell?
How far in research/ province capturing should I be in the end of first year to be able to compete in multiplayer?
Just gonna answer the first two questions here, sorta, gonna answer them both as one kind of answer here. Lemme first get the basic idea of spellcasting fatigue down from the wiki (http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Fatigue).
Quote
Battlefield spells cost a certain amount of Fatigue. Each spell has a listed fatigue cost which a caster incurs when casting that spell. For each skill level in the required path that the mage exceeds the minimum, he incurs 1 / (1 + (mage skill – minimum skill) of the listed spell fatigue. In other words, having an extra skill level means the mage suffers only ½ fatigue, two extra skill levels means he suffers only 1/3 as much, three extra is ¼, and so forth.
So there you go. Wait, still need to explain how gems reduce fatigue. So the trick about gems is you can use one gem to give yourself a one path boost once per turn. So both are intimately tied here.
As for the third question, the province answer is straightforward, more than your fair share. The research question is a bit tricky, as it depends on what nation you're playing and what spells you have access to. In general, someone like Marignon would want to hit evocation 3 sometime in the first year since their mages make decent leaders and can toss fireballs. Your research is effectively useless if you're not making use out of it though, so knowing when a good time it is to commit mages to wars and expansions makes it more tricky. No real straightforward answer here.
Post by: Frumple on April 09, 2016, 01:00:30 pm
Naturally, more than one per turn is better, but that's usually cited as your minimum.
All that said, though, if you're playing an entry level Dom4 MP game, you may not exactly need to be that efficient, heh.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 09, 2016, 01:17:58 pm
How far in research/ province capturing should I be in the end of first year to be able to compete in multiplayer?
It depends. Research really depends, some nations rely on early research more than others. It's easy to catch up in RP if you have four times as many forts as the other guy.
Expansion depends. What's good for R'lyeh is pitiful for Pangaea. But several per turn is good. 1 per turn would be minimum. Less than 1 per turn is reality in low skill matches.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 09, 2016, 03:42:04 pm
On the first turn, my starting army usually sits in my home province and I recruit troops to add to it in preparation for sending it out on turn 2. Some nations have really strong starter armies and may be safe to launch attacks with, others are really weak and risky to send out on turn 1. What I recruit also depends on the nation. If the nation lacks holy-3 priests, I usually prophetize my starting commander on the first turn as well. Otherwise, I sometimes go without a prophet until I recruit an H3, since prophetizing an H3 results in an H4 prophet.
After turn 1 I try to expand as fast as possible, which means raising new armies to increase my expansion rate (and recruiting reinforcements if I'm losing troops, and sending them to the army instead of sending the army back), watching battles and then adjusting my army formation, composition, and orders to try to optimize their performance, capturing farmlands to increase my income to increase my ability to build armies, building palisades in places where they can get lots of resources (e.g. adjacent to multiple forest and/or mountain provinces) to increase my army building rate, and recruiting and sending out scouts to find out where the other nations are (generally recruiting them every turn on repeat from one or two provinces).
But I also try to balance that with increasing my research rate by recruiting mages as often as possible from as many forts/palisades as possible, with site-searching once I have a decent research rate, and with scout-recruitment (I prefer recruiting non-fort scouts, if possible).
Once I start running into other players, my army composition tends to change - or I build border forts - since in EA and MA you can roll over indies with a fairly weak army, and other players' armies can be considerably tougher, especially if your troops are weak and theirs are badass (so you rely later on magic or summons, or blessed troops that you recruit slowly over a large number of turns).
Diplomacy also comes into play in most multiplayer games I've played (generally as early as possible). You don't want to end up being the guy that everyone gangs up on - unless you can actually take them all on at once.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 12, 2016, 03:40:08 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 12, 2016, 04:34:45 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 14, 2016, 06:50:11 am
The new transformation seems to have a fairly high chance to feeblemind casters and with the cost of 8 gems, should I just not cast it anymore? Even on pans?
Post by: AlStar on April 14, 2016, 12:42:32 pm
My bad.For what it's worth, you might've just gotten unlucky - from what I've read, it's only about a 15% chance for a bad result.
The new transformation seems to have a fairly high chance to feeblemind casters and with the cost of 8 gems, should I just not cast it anymore? Even on pans?
I've had only limited experience with the spell myself (maybe a handful of casts), but haven't ever gotten a feeblemind result.
Post by: E. Albright on April 14, 2016, 04:15:01 pm
At one point I did a miserable test of 300 castings under luck 3 (it was going to be under various lucks but clicking through 300 casts of Transformation damped my spirits). Looking back at it, 5/300 died and 40/300 were feebleminded. That comes right out to the 15% figure.
(35/300 ended up troll/yeti/giant/ettin, plus 6/300 were flying monkeys who are also full-slotted. On a further cautionary note, 15/300 ended up as either Hydras or Troll Seithberenders, both of which have annual upkeeps of 200+...)
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 14, 2016, 07:09:47 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 14, 2016, 07:36:55 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 14, 2016, 08:56:58 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 14, 2016, 09:00:20 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 14, 2016, 09:14:48 pm
E: Note to self: When wanting to play around with crossbreeding on a small map, don't claim the throne of the pantokrator. The poor AI's dominion can't take that.
Post by: E. Albright on April 14, 2016, 11:40:49 pm
Oh, and to combine this with the last train of thought, one of the feebleminded land transformations is the Freaklord's mount, which still is a crossbreeder, so if you can fix its scrabbled mind...
Post by: chaoticag on April 15, 2016, 01:17:50 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 15, 2016, 03:44:47 am
Also no, I don't think bad transformations reduce magic paths. I never saw it happen at least, besides the transformations to feebleminded or mindless forms that just take away all paths.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 15, 2016, 03:52:50 am
Post by: E. Albright on April 15, 2016, 09:09:56 am
Transformation is affected both by luck scales, and personal luck of the caster. There are two Luck-granting trinkets that can be fairly easily acquired, and they both seem to stack in decreasing the chances of a bad transformation.
This is literally the first time I've ever heard of personal luck affecting anything out of combat. Do you have a reference for this, or is it just personal experience? (I'll test it myself at some point either way, but now I'm rather curious.)
Also no, I don't think bad transformations reduce magic paths. I never saw it happen at least, besides the transformations to feebleminded or mindless forms that just take away all paths.
It's only the Feeblemindedness that's eliminating spellcasting. Mindless beings can still cast spells; e.g. Golems, Onyx Oracles, Colossal Fetishes, and the whole sidenote about Mindless casters not being affected by or able to cast Magic Duel.
As someone who's spent a lot of time on the mod inspector, a lot of animal forms have path penalties (and a few have bonuses IIRC).
A lot of the units that are Transformation targets have #fooattuned, which is a Transformation/Gift of Reason-specific command to add a level of a given path upon transforming/becoming a commander. However, none of them actually have positive or negative path boosts.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 15, 2016, 09:21:12 am
The personal luck should be tested, seems relevant. Also my orginal question of "is it worth it?" still stands.
Post by: Empty on April 15, 2016, 09:28:14 am
Are there people out there who play normal multiplayer not Play by email?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 15, 2016, 09:34:38 am
I seem to recall seeing some blitz games in this steam group:
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/vanheimageofvidya
No doubt there are other places. Can't name one due to being a PBEM guy myself.
Post by: E. Albright on April 15, 2016, 09:41:52 am
There are many variations of foulspawn, sadly. All bad.
I don't know; if not for the Feebleminding/if you can fix the Feebleminding, both 456 and 530 are actually pretty nice.
As to whether or not Transformation is worth it, it's situational. If your mages are expensive, your mages are physically frail, you have some way to fix FM, you have good Luck, you can benefit from getting new crosspaths that are available via attunement, and you're not extremely tight on Nature gems, it's worth it. Each one of those that doesn't apply reduces the worth of transforming, though.
Post by: E. Albright on April 15, 2016, 10:13:21 am
Post by: Cruxador on April 15, 2016, 11:31:33 am
I've been wondering.Yes, there's often games like that. There's also a new system being developed which would allow direct connect (like blitz, which is what you're describing) to a server with a HTTP-accessible front-end (like we do with PBEM).
Are there people out there who play normal multiplayer not Play by email?
Post by: DFNewb on April 16, 2016, 02:51:34 pm
I've been wondering.Yes, there's often games like that. There's also a new system being developed which would allow direct connect (like blitz, which is what you're describing) to a server with a HTTP-accessible front-end (like we do with PBEM).
Are there people out there who play normal multiplayer not Play by email?
Do you have any more info on this new system? I am very interested in this.
Post by: Frumple on April 16, 2016, 06:40:12 pm
I don't know; if not for the Feebleminding/if you can fix the Feebleminding, both 456 and 530 are actually pretty nice.488 is also pretty beast; technically not a foulspawn, but it's totally a crossbreed results, which counts well enough for me. Can also hit chimeras, which if not the most amazing slot wise are still plenty tanky and somewhat air attuned.
For non-transformation foulspawn, basilisks are sexy, if not as a commander chassis. So are grotesques, if not the most amazing of things slot wise, with draco-lions roughly in the same place. Plenty of foulspawn/crossbreed results that are solid units.
... though checking those, how exactly does attunement work from the mod angle? Pretty sure airattune 50 doesn't give you 50 levels of air, so, uh. Yeah. Percentile chance, base boost? Something else? Could probably check the modding resources but it's mildly easier to just ask :P
Post by: Cruxador on April 16, 2016, 07:15:58 pm
If you ask specific questions, maybe. Here's the Git: https://github.com/moggers/blitzserverI've been wondering.Yes, there's often games like that. There's also a new system being developed which would allow direct connect (like blitz, which is what you're describing) to a server with a HTTP-accessible front-end (like we do with PBEM).
Are there people out there who play normal multiplayer not Play by email?
Do you have any more info on this new system? I am very interested in this.
And here's the currently hosted version, which is basically functional but not officially launched as it is undergoing testing for usability and stability: http://blitzserver.net/
Documentation should get better after an official launch, I would think.
Post by: E. Albright on April 17, 2016, 11:41:38 am
... though checking those, how exactly does attunement work from the mod angle? Pretty sure airattune 50 doesn't give you 50 levels of air, so, uh. Yeah. Percentile chance, base boost? Something else? Could probably check the modding resources but it's mildly easier to just ask :P
Yep, percentile chance to get +1 in that path. Turning into a moose always gets you +1 nature (typical Illwinter pro-moose bigotry) but turning into a sea stag only gives you +1 one time in five.
Post by: Frumple on April 22, 2016, 07:58:06 pm
Am I doing something, or is this thing just bugged to buggery?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 22, 2016, 09:15:16 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 22, 2016, 11:37:17 pm
It. Also appears to only impart the astral levels on the vessel? Though at least those update if the master changes. Aannnnd the mindlessness doesn't protect against insanity.
Good gods, this is. Kinda' terrible? 15 astral for a pretty flimsy insane chassis, that doesn't actually get its masters spell paths, and is basically instakilled by decay effects. I'm not seeing the value of this versus a fish amulet. I guess the slots, but... still. That's expensive for a lot of fancy tissue paper, especially including the gold cost.
... maybe if the slots went both ways? Like, a booster on the androdai bumped up the aboleth's paths, and vice-versa. That'd be neat instead of somewhat... dubious.
Post by: Cruxador on April 22, 2016, 11:50:24 pm
... yeah, that did it. That... could stand to be made clearer. Significantly.The value is that you have big casters who only cast 15 gems and a bit of gold, and are totally disposable and spammable. It's not great, but it's something. And in big games it becomes cost-effective to empower an S9 and then you have disposable S9s for such fun as pulling down astral corruption, or teleporting in and spamming Master Enslave. It's shit in the early game, true, but it opens up a whole lot of cool late game options.
It. Also appears to only impart the astral levels on the vessel? Though at least those update if the master changes. Aannnnd the mindlessness doesn't protect against insanity.
Good gods, this is. Kinda' terrible? 15 astral for a pretty flimsy insane chassis, that doesn't actually get its masters spell paths, and is basically instakilled by decay effects. I'm not seeing the value of this versus a fish amulet. I guess the slots, but... still. That's expensive for a lot of fancy tissue paper, especially including the gold cost.
... maybe if the slots went both ways? Like, a booster on the androdai bumped up the aboleth's paths, and vice-versa. That'd be neat instead of somewhat... dubious.
It's not enough to make EA R'lyeh a strong nation, mind you.
Post by: Frumple on April 23, 2016, 12:50:40 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 23, 2016, 04:55:25 am
Post by: chaoticag on April 23, 2016, 05:11:50 am
1. attacking the entire battlefield.
Mages are not so tough nine out of ten times. Tossing out two earthquake spells would take care of your typical mage, or severely hurt them. You just need some way of making sure it doesn't hurt your mage, or making them mass producible.
Rain of stones is a bit like earthquakes older brother from what I hear and can do the job nicely.
2. Mind duel.
Astral mages giving you trouble? If you mass produce enough astral mages you can mind duel the opposition.
3. Flyers
Mages more or less tend to be towards the back, with possibly a guard. If you can get a few flying thugs with brands, they would make short work of them.
4. Battlefield effect spells
Choke enemy mages on foul vapors. For added effect try and give everyone on your side poison resistance.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 23, 2016, 05:20:14 am
Longbow of Accuracy (const-2 A1) comes with an accuracy boost. Could maybe 1-shot human hp mages?
Bow of War (const-6 A1) shoots thirteen arrows a pop. I guess that could work for assassinations.
Black Bow of Botulf (const-2 D1) causes feeblemind. Might want to stack some accuracy boosts on that though since it's single-target.
Banefire Crossbow (const-6 D1) has aoe-3 decay which might work, but with a crossbow you won't be getting many shots out.
Post by: Frumple on April 23, 2016, 07:19:21 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 25, 2016, 09:15:39 am
Post by: Culise on April 25, 2016, 09:30:09 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 25, 2016, 09:34:59 am
FAKEEDIT: Apparently it's Alt + Home. That is... certainly some hotkey they have there.
Post by: E. Albright on April 25, 2016, 09:55:34 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 26, 2016, 04:58:15 am
Post by: Radsoc on April 30, 2016, 03:03:55 pm
The manual states that rituals are cast in random order. Magic battles that emanate from such rituals are resolved in the step thereafter.
So let's say I anticipate that some bastard wants to do some really really outrageous remote magic stuff to some nice people in my province. Naturally, I want to shield my heroes by casting a dome. Let's say the dome ritual gets cast after the horrendeous remote rituals have been performed and are set to cause a battle in the next step; will there be a dome check when the battle is initiated?
And what about situations where two mages perform rituals against eachother? Does it matter who draws first?
From the little experience I have I can't exclude that it was mere luck that saved me last time when the dome popped up. Sure, odds getting there first out of a number of rituals are slim, but it's possible.
At least this is the only way I can think of, of preserving and covering mobility and coherence of an army in presence of horror spam and various assassin demons.
Post by: chaoticag on April 30, 2016, 03:11:54 pm
Also, yeah, it more or less matters when two mages cast spells on each other. If I had cast seeking arrow on a province with a unit casting mind hunt at my province, then both spells would fire so long as the first spell failed to kill the target casting the other spell. I'd say the draw order would also likely be a unit's internal ID. Probably.
Post by: Radsoc on April 30, 2016, 05:01:00 pm
Post by: Frumple on April 30, 2016, 05:30:43 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 30, 2016, 05:54:35 pm
Well, if you cast a dome on the same turn as someone casts a spell targeting the dome, then you have to beat him in executing the spell, so it would be random order, however, I think the random is based on a unit's internal ID number.
As far as *rituals* go, this is no longer true as of Dom4. Ritual resolution order is simply random.
Internal ID still goes in top-to-bottom order in combat though, and that can be figured out by looking at your army placement screen.
Post by: chaoticag on April 30, 2016, 06:15:26 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 30, 2016, 08:48:49 pm
Internal ID still goes in top-to-bottom order in combat though, and that can be figured out by looking at your army placement screen.
Can definitely confirm. I took advantage of this in a battle earlier in 4x20 (when I was attacking C'tis's capital with lots of mages) to make my mages' names for a couple battles into part of the lyrics of the Johnny Cash song "The Man Comes Around." They came out in order, perfectly, every time my turn came in the battle. :P
(Because there's nothing like blaring music at your enemies as you overwhelm them, right?)
Post by: Radsoc on May 01, 2016, 02:35:19 am
Post by: Shadowlord on May 01, 2016, 09:08:01 am
Post by: Radsoc on May 01, 2016, 09:50:50 am
Post by: Shadowlord on May 01, 2016, 10:28:58 am
Post by: Radsoc on May 02, 2016, 11:32:55 am
Post by: catoblepas on May 05, 2016, 11:03:54 pm
Post by: Karlito on May 05, 2016, 11:07:22 pm
EDIT: Or uh, sites have a #path command apparently. That probably sets the image. 0 is fire, so volcano is probably the default image.
Post by: Micro102 on May 06, 2016, 03:34:28 am
Post by: Shadowgandor on May 06, 2016, 04:21:05 am
Feels like I already know all the races and games are starting to feel repetitive. Any idea on how to rekindle my interest?Multiplayer, especially disciple games tend to be a lot more interesting. Not sure if you've tried that yet :)
Post by: Frumple on May 06, 2016, 06:53:58 am
E: ... and suddenly a nationgen version of cataclysm sounds really appealing. Hrm.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 06, 2016, 10:06:56 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 06, 2016, 11:09:34 am
Feels like I already know all the races and games are starting to feel repetitive. Any idea on how to rekindle my interest?I'll second the advice to do multiplayer if you haven't. But then, if you haven't played multiplayer, you haven't really played Dominions in the first place.
If you have, and you're still having this problem, that's what meme games are for. Playing with NationGen would be the most direct remedy. But other unusual formats, or odd rulesets (eg Quadbless Quadbest) shake things up too.
Post by: Radsoc on May 06, 2016, 12:36:29 pm
Post by: pisskop on May 09, 2016, 05:00:54 pm
I picked out ME Pythium to learn my stuff with, because Sssneke and not an emo necromancer. I then added a 5 earth 5 nature 2 fire god. Which is awesome, but it turns out the only one capable of any sort of effective sight hunting is the pretender (which seems like a waste of 32 research and a pretender) and the arch theug (which is frankly kind of weak as a mage)
I get that they are supposed to be a nation of communions, but even that feels like a waste of commander recruitment.
The mages cant cast all that much in the way of destruciton, and they dont summon that much either.
Do I just forego the use of these silly mages in combat and use them for their intended purpose of building temples, an occasional acolyte to preach, and as weak conjurationers/forgers?
I dont mind the legionary bit; it works out until I hit magic critters. But then I feel like Im throwing poo at a wall made of poo.
Post by: E. Albright on May 09, 2016, 06:08:17 pm
If that seems like too much trouble, have an Arch Theurg cast Storm, and a bunch of Theurgs cast Storm Power and then as much Lightning as they can. It's not as elegant, but it works.
There's a lot of other really nasty shenanigans they can pull off, but these are very straightforward.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 10, 2016, 12:07:10 am
Really there's all kind of nastiness Pythium can do with their mages, but for the early game you pay the price of, well, being Pythium. They don't expand well.
Post by: Karlito on May 10, 2016, 12:58:47 am
Post by: Radsoc on May 13, 2016, 04:32:45 am
Is it always the defender that gets the first turn of a battle?
Post by: chaoticag on May 13, 2016, 04:44:45 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 13, 2016, 07:25:52 am
I just lost a decisive battle to an opening move of mass flight that wiped out most of my rear-most mages :P
Pfft, amateurs. I'd have combo'd that with a couple of earthquakes! But seriously, don't attack lategame armies unless you know you can withstand their arcane opening barrages.
Is it always the defender that gets the first turn of a battle?
Defender goes first. A String of single (suicide) mages with the right paths can do terrible things to an invading army.
Post by: Radsoc on May 13, 2016, 08:12:03 am
But I found out that golems with area effects are really effective. A heavily armored, ethereal, high-MR golem armed with a carmine cleaver, took 20% of all kills, mostly high-hp units, before going down. They kept the enemies busy enough to wipe out the entire set of enemy communion slaves due to fatigue as well.
Post by: chaoticag on May 13, 2016, 08:47:34 am
Post by: E. Albright on May 13, 2016, 09:37:22 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 13, 2016, 09:40:03 am
Post by: Frumple on May 13, 2016, 09:48:40 am
Why carmine cleaver though?Maybe the fire shield effect? If you've got access to carmine cleavers, though, you've almost certainly got access to charcoal shields, too, so if you're after that you'd want a brand (or whatev') and the shield instead...
Still, path and gem limitations are a thing, and the carmine is fire shield plus some AoE (via heat) for a little less than a firebrand+charcoal shield (2f1e vs 3e2f, gem wise, so 15 vs 25). Maybe that's all they could manage?
Post by: Shadowlord on May 13, 2016, 10:07:47 am
Post by: Frumple on May 13, 2016, 11:39:51 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 18, 2016, 07:45:28 am
Edit: We need a host, too.
Post by: chaoticag on May 18, 2016, 08:16:01 am
Post by: Karlito on May 18, 2016, 09:17:53 am
Post by: Jilladilla on May 18, 2016, 09:52:23 am
Post by: Cheeetar on May 18, 2016, 09:15:18 pm
Post by: PrimusRibbus on May 18, 2016, 10:36:03 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on May 18, 2016, 10:59:04 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 19, 2016, 02:52:55 am
Post by: chaoticag on May 19, 2016, 03:01:14 am
Post by: E. Albright on May 21, 2016, 08:29:07 pm
Post by: Culise on May 21, 2016, 08:30:14 pm
Post by: Empty on May 21, 2016, 10:03:28 pm
...if you're masochistic, an updated version of the Cataclysm mod (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2963&st=0#entry22147608) just got released...
This looks excellent for multiplayer matches! A shame about the pd though.
Post by: Jilladilla on May 21, 2016, 10:42:35 pm
...if you're masochistic, an updated version of the Cataclysm mod (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2963&st=0#entry22147608) just got released...
Nope. Not happening for me. Arcoscephale mages drive me nuts. This? Nope. Nonononononononononononononononononononope. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE!
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 22, 2016, 03:52:06 am
Post by: chaoticag on May 22, 2016, 04:05:21 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 22, 2016, 07:04:47 am
Post by: Shadowlord on May 22, 2016, 08:31:20 am
Post by: Jilladilla on May 22, 2016, 11:20:25 am
Also the level 3 thrones have extremely strong defenders and pretender-level leaders guarding them (with high-end spells). It's possible to lose an entire army to them
I've seen level 2 thrones with these...
Post by: Shadowlord on May 22, 2016, 11:32:56 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 22, 2016, 12:09:35 pm
Post by: chaoticag on May 22, 2016, 01:08:33 pm
Post by: RexMundi on May 22, 2016, 01:23:26 pm
Post by: chaoticag on May 22, 2016, 01:50:00 pm
Post by: Jilladilla on May 22, 2016, 02:40:13 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 24, 2016, 03:32:23 am
I'd go for 6 or 8 players,
"Easy" research.
Roughly half lvl 3 and half lvl 2 thrones, when in doubt, 1 more lvl 3 throne.
No idea about the map either, some seperating features would be nice, like Big Black Peaks
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: chaoticag on May 24, 2016, 03:42:57 am
Post by: Jilladilla on May 24, 2016, 04:18:12 am
Post by: chaoticag on May 24, 2016, 04:20:05 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 24, 2016, 05:38:46 am
Are caves always dark, like deep-deep-oceans?
Post by: Jilladilla on May 24, 2016, 05:52:11 am
Are caves always dark, like deep-deep-oceans?
Yup, -3 darkness penalty, of course there's a bunch of rituals that need to be cast in a cave to work, also Earthquake is SCARY in caves (obviously), not to mention that both Agartha and Xibalba REALLY like cave provinces. Well, Agartha does anyway (earlier ages moreso than later), I've never really played Xibalba so I'm gonna go with chaoticag's judgement on that.
Post by: francesprince on May 24, 2016, 06:53:26 am
Post by: Shadowlord on May 24, 2016, 07:55:22 am
Post by: E. Albright on May 24, 2016, 09:17:07 am
Post by: Shadowlord on May 24, 2016, 09:42:43 am
Post by: Frumple on May 24, 2016, 09:56:09 am
Post by: Karlito on May 24, 2016, 10:03:40 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 24, 2016, 01:33:13 pm
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-3-the-awakening/forum/thread/tear-of-heavens-95-14-wraparound#806482
It's setup for 7 players, 1 water, 6 land.
If we can't edit it, I fear we have to proceed without caves for lack of any alternative suggestions (Anything from 80 to 150 provinces should be fine).
Post by: chaoticag on May 24, 2016, 01:49:18 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 24, 2016, 02:06:53 pm
Dominions 4 Round 21 - Sign Up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158361.msg7015442#msg7015442)
It's a near vanilla, EA game, the rest is open for discussion.
Post by: Culise on June 07, 2016, 12:34:36 pm
Spoiler: Patch notes (click to show/hide)
Post by: E. Albright on June 07, 2016, 04:04:21 pm
--
On a very random note, some of the battle engine improvements over the last couple of patches have ratcheted up the engine's ability to handle enormous battles a lot. I replayed the climactic turn-92-ish storming of Agor from 4.10 (which was a ridiculous 6.1k vs. 6.8k, with tons of skellispammers on both sides), and things actually more or less went precisely (albeit tediously) as they should have (for the record, Agor loses the replayed battle now, by a margin even more narrow than how they'd previously lost it). The field is larger, Mass Flight, Fog Warriors, Acid Rain, etc. hit entire armies just like they're supposed to, castle walls actually keep the Howl-summoned wolves out, etc. etc. etc.
Post by: chaoticag on June 07, 2016, 04:09:13 pm
Also, those troops almost looked nice until I saw... their encumbrance. Holy gods, their armored underwater units have 7 and 9 encumbrance.
Post by: E. Albright on June 07, 2016, 06:12:39 pm
Their coastal units are scant, yeah. Pretty much normal for a UW nation in that regard.
I'd note that their sacreds don't really need much of a bless to do well expanding, even in small-ish numbers.
Having said that... I'm really not sure how they're supposed to work. Very cap-centric, and troops which aren't amazing. It seems like they'd have to thug, but even that's hard since their cavalry isn't stealthy. Odd bunch. I love the feel, but odd.
Post by: Frumple on June 07, 2016, 06:18:52 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 07, 2016, 06:39:52 pm
<3 swanherds. I don't have a good reason, but I do. I do have a good reason to love the Morvarc'h: they're just so cute! Squee? Squee.
To be honest, 2 swans per swanherd isn't the worse thing in the world. Sure they absolutely suck at combat, but swans have no upkeep, flying and Need not Eat. With 1.64 siege strength (attacking or defending) they are surprisingly good at defending or breaking fortresses. Every single of Ys's aboveground forts should have a bunch of swanherds just spamming swans until the end of time. The massive swarm of swans generated should be more than enough to keep them safe from besiegers.
All I know looking at it is that forget the rest of the forces, those no-need-to-eat swans are gorram amazing. Get coastal province, get fort, set swanherds to repeat, never look back. Look out reanimators, we got flying supply free chaff pouring out of our orifices.
Yeah. Swans are totally great. Even if they suck at doing anything useful in combat.
Also, those troops almost looked nice until I saw... their encumbrance. Holy gods, their armored underwater units have 7 and 9 encumbrance.
The encumbrance isn't all that surprising. Bronze seems to be fairly heavy and not as protective compared to its counterparts. The Merrow have 3 encumbrance just like every other regular human, so... It's not extraordinarily bad. Just the ordinary kind of bad that everyone else has to deal with.
Their land units seem a bit limited too. Can anyone else take a look at them? They seem like they'd have ok thugs right away maybe? Anything I'm missing about evaluating them?
The land units are alright. You have a 9 gold guy who has no actual disadvantages for costing 9 gold. He has 10 in all of the expected stats, passable protection (12 body, 16 head), shield, javelin and broadsword. The only obvious downside is his 18 resource cost, which makes him harder to mass. They also have a guy who is almost identical to the Marignon Man at Arms except for having -1 Morale, no Bodyguard, +1 HP, +1 Strength and costing -2 gold. They also have Medium Cavalry but they aren't terribly special because Medium Cavalry. For their land commanders they have a general (who isn't terribly special), the swanherd (who is) and the Kernou Druid. The Kernou Druid is basically the Maverni Druid (E1S1 + 100% WESN). Except it has MM2 instead of 1, and costs 10 gold less.
Really, the theme of Ys's land units seems to be that they are strangely undercost for what they are. Not in a way that makes them overpowered mind you. They're just cheaper when you compare them to similar units for absolutely no reason.
Having said that... I'm really not sure how they're supposed to work. Very cap-centric, and troops which aren't amazing. It seems like they'd have to thug, but even that's hard since their cavalry isn't stealthy. Odd bunch. I love the feel, but odd.
Honestly? They seem to be in the same boat as the rest of the glamour/elf nations. Expensive but good mages, passable troops and a great potential for thugging. Use the sacreds to expand (fire-breathing horses are great regardless of your bless), build up a sizable army and buff the shit out of them while your thugs do their thing. Throw in some big spells and call it a day. Worse comes to worse, you can always hide out underwater and try to rebuild.
Post by: Karlito on June 07, 2016, 06:55:55 pm
EDIT: Swanswarms rebuilding your castle gates is awesome though.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 07, 2016, 08:13:47 pm
Post by: Frumple on June 07, 2016, 08:19:27 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on June 08, 2016, 02:40:53 am
Post by: E. Albright on June 08, 2016, 05:37:14 am
To be honest, 2 swans per swanherd isn't the worse thing in the world. Sure they absolutely suck at combat, but swans have no upkeep, flying and Need not Eat. With 1.64 siege strength (attacking or defending) they are surprisingly good at defending or breaking fortresses. Every single of Ys's aboveground forts should have a bunch of swanherds just spamming swans until the end of time. The massive swarm of swans generated should be more than enough to keep them safe from besiegers.
They're actually only 1.36 (6^2/100+1), but otherwise, I heartily agree with everything you say.
I have no personal experience with swans, but I grew up around geese, and based on that I shall agree with Frumple that we're better off not looking too closely at their methods...
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 08, 2016, 09:04:19 am
Post by: PrimusRibbus on June 08, 2016, 10:01:06 am
If only they were gooseherds and we wouldn't even need to cast Rage of the Cornered Rat to get the flock to berserk.
I have no personal experience with swans, but I grew up around geese, and based on that I shall agree with Frumple that we're better off not looking too closely at their methods...
Gooserkers in NationGen when? :P
Post by: E. Albright on June 08, 2016, 02:30:01 pm
(On that note, we are trying to push out a release in the next week or two, and it should be a pretty big one. And I SWEAR I'm not just saying that because I'll end up adding 5mb of swan filters and templates.)
Post by: sackhead on June 10, 2016, 12:02:59 am
check it out! (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2983)
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2016, 09:19:33 am
Spoiler: sorrynotsorry (click to show/hide)
Post by: Karlito on June 10, 2016, 10:27:12 am
Post by: neotemplar on June 10, 2016, 11:08:24 am
...no regrets...Spoiler: sorrynotsorry (click to show/hide)
Shouldn't the swan be in the chariot whipping humanoids?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 12, 2016, 04:46:23 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 23, 2016, 02:03:31 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 24, 2016, 07:24:53 am
Post by: Karlito on June 24, 2016, 10:00:08 am
Post by: Shadowlord on June 24, 2016, 10:12:31 am
What does that even mean?^
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on June 24, 2016, 07:41:49 pm
Post by: Frumple on June 24, 2016, 09:12:24 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 25, 2016, 04:04:13 am
I'm just thinking over weird/intresting variations for hosting, like "Normal game, but we just fast forward past the first 3 turns, so we got a bunch of "rich/old/kingdoms" at the start of the first playable turn.
Post by: Cruxador on June 25, 2016, 10:06:10 am
Post by: Frumple on June 25, 2016, 10:53:00 am
What ZebioLizard2 said.If you're going to do that, you might as well go big. Fastforward to like turn 50 or somethin'.
I'm just thinking over weird/intresting variations for hosting, like "Normal game, but we just fast forward past the first 3 turns, so we got a bunch of "rich/old/kingdoms" at the start of the first playable turn.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 25, 2016, 01:44:28 pm
Post by: Cruxador on June 25, 2016, 03:18:53 pm
From testing I know - sadly - that this kills nations with rando events/dominion. 3 turns will do. (Hardcore merc-betting fights)How high did you set initial province count?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 25, 2016, 07:56:00 pm
There was a game set up not that long ago where Ermor was given a huge boost to be the BBEG for the rest of the nations to fight. I've also heard of a story where one player was essentially the GM. And from time to time, people assume primary goals that aren't "win" for a game, and people generally refrain from finishing those nations off out of respect for what they're bringing to the table. But I'm not sure a game with a lot of those could be orchestrated effectively. I think it would be much easier to go full RP or full competitive.If you were going to do it I would definitely stick to a single GM/"NPC" player and have everyone else be competitive. And make it pretty clear what the MO of the non-competitive player is so that the other players can plan around it.
Post by: Shadowlord on June 25, 2016, 08:33:00 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 26, 2016, 03:03:16 am
From testing I know - sadly - that this kills nations with rando events/dominion. 3 turns will do. (Hardcore merc-betting fights)How high did you set initial province count?
9, 0% Indi strenght, 300% everything else, human vs humnan Nation same dominion, a resarcher on repeat build Research points soread out, Start punching the force host Button, usually one dies before everything is researched.
As for nations:
Marignon, Undead Hunters, Witch Hunters
MA Nazca, Kings of Wasteland and nothing else.
MA, LA R'lyeh - Apathic to everything, explorers of the unknown, callers of Doom Horrors, the bribe-able.
EA Pangaea, MA Pangaea, MA Asphodel - Defenders of the forests
Any Nation, commanders & Mercs only: The Strange Hero Party (maybe not giant nations?), The Grand Gem Exchange
Post by: E. Albright on June 26, 2016, 09:33:36 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 02, 2016, 03:34:01 am
Spoiler: ...Stuff... (click to show/hide)
NationGen 0.6.11 (Chaos Most Foul): https://github.com/elmokki/nationgen/releases/tag/0.6.11 (https://github.com/elmokki/nationgen/releases/tag/0.6.11)
Post by: E. Albright on July 02, 2016, 01:41:20 pm
Post by: Karlito on July 02, 2016, 01:46:28 pm
Post by: cider on July 02, 2016, 06:51:45 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 02, 2016, 07:12:21 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 03, 2016, 02:21:17 am
That sounds like it's most like a dominion problem (from events) more than any other sort of event problem. Make a custom map that gives every "NPC nation" a completely isolated, 0-pop province with a temple in addition to their "normal" capital, and make sure there's a few temples for the non-NPC nations.Can Dominions even handle disconnected provinces?
Post by: E. Albright on July 03, 2016, 02:59:09 am
Post by: Shadowlord on July 03, 2016, 05:13:57 am
Post by: Frumple on July 03, 2016, 06:06:36 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 03, 2016, 03:25:16 pm
It sounds like a good plan, although one could still lose a disconnected province to random events (e.g. barbarian invasions). So perhaps also give the disconnected provinces some ridiculous amount of PD and a strong PD type?
Just fortify them. 0 pop also protects against a number of that sort of event.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 04, 2016, 02:42:00 pm
Yeah, it can. I can't remember why, but there was something that inspired me to make a non-connected map and play thirty or fifty turns to test some harebrained notion or another at one point. The game just chugs on as though nothing out of the ordinary is happening.Wow, Dominions devs confirmed better coders than the people who made the original Clausewitz engine.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on July 07, 2016, 05:58:11 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on July 07, 2016, 06:56:57 am
Post by: Karlito on July 07, 2016, 01:07:46 pm
Terrible nationgen sillyness would also be alright with me.
Post by: E. Albright on July 07, 2016, 01:41:29 pm
Wasn't it 1 religious guy, one doc and one coder all working together?
Illwinter qua Illwinter is JK the coder and KO the graphics/content dev. JK's dayjob is coding (for IBM, I wanna say?) and KO is a prof whose area is world religions. Edi (docs) and Erik/RandomEvents (events, duh) are AFAIK associates but not core Illwinter.
--
I could probably do some NG silliness, seeing how we're into a less intense (albeit more sustained) dev cycle than we had been. I'm willing to organize, I suppose. What's to be the silly conceit, if any? Are we actually so masochistic as to try an all-Foulspawn round, either disciple or normal?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 07, 2016, 05:53:05 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 07, 2016, 08:40:19 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 07, 2016, 08:41:27 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 07, 2016, 09:01:44 pm
Spoiler: Example (click to show/hide)
Below yellow is commanders, below red is the Tier-3 mage, green boxes are secondary race minotaurs.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on July 21, 2016, 04:09:16 pm
This is mostly an AI & UI patch. Most of the work has gone into improving the late game behavior of the AI. It should now be able to utilize its resources more efficiently and be more likely to get to a position where it can cast high level rituals. There has also been some improvements to the user interface, like more 'goto province' buttons on messages, shift click support in more places and more keyboard shortcuts.
General
God & nation popup in global enchantment screen
Darkvision from throne bless was counted twice
Fixed some bonuses when viewing att/def details
Goto province for scout attacked messages
Goto province for more ritual messages
ctrl+s to view saved orders (army setup screen)
Message for fort construction completed
Shift transfers 5 gems at a time
Keyboard shortcuts f/a/w/e/... to transfer gems to commander
Gem transfer box can be closed by Return as well
Shift changes PD 5 steps at a time
+/- can also be used to change PD
Ice Strike now causes slashing damage
Transformation & feeblemind/mindless fix
Strands of Arcane Power cannot be cast by mindless casters
Blind & losteye fix
Stat & cost fixes
Typos fixed
AI
Be less willing to do suicidal attacks
Recruitment improvements
Learned to cast a few more type of rituals
Forge item choice improvements
Improved magic item distribution
Dedicated ritualist for improved high level ritual casting
Empowerment tweaks
Improved preaching behavior
Spell AI no longer targets destruction/rust at units with only natural protection
Modding
Multiple same type of event effects didn't work
Removed false warning for #flagland
Post by: Cruxador on July 21, 2016, 08:02:19 pm
Post by: BFEL on July 22, 2016, 02:42:24 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 22, 2016, 03:39:32 pm
Post by: BFEL on July 23, 2016, 08:47:32 am
The slider could just as easily be labeled "Sacred Ridiculousness". Which is to say, nope, you're not too literal, that's exactly right.This is funny because every time I put it to "batshit insane" it always, ALWAYS gives me hilariously shitty sacreds. Like they don't have a SINGLE SPECIAL ATTRIBUTE. No poisonarmor, no invulnerability, generally not even "better resistances" they get nothing.
But yeah, with the restrictions system there's now a semi balanced way to make "select your own nation" games. Basically everyone sends in what restrictions they want their nation to be genned with and take the first thing that works. Or just get told no if it takes too long for the host person's taste :P
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: OK WOW. Wanna know how dumb the AI is in the game I'm playing? It put a SLAVE COLLAR ON ITS PRETENDER. FUCKING WUT. I think Illwinter still has some bugfixing to do XD
Post by: E. Albright on July 23, 2016, 11:38:38 am
--
I'd definitely report the Slave Collar on Pretender thing.
Post by: BFEL on July 23, 2016, 12:13:52 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 23, 2016, 12:30:31 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 23, 2016, 12:33:16 pm
Post by: BFEL on July 24, 2016, 07:18:54 am
Open the mod's .dm file. At the beginning there's a list with the seed that was used to generate the nation seed (ignore it) and right after that a by-nation list of specific seeds.How do I open the .dm file? Do I use 7zip?
I can't even remember... isn't it possible to pick up slave collars after a fight? I think it was at one point, but not sure if that was Dom 3 or what -- know it was at least possible to pick up those cheapo cursed knives. If it is, though, it may be that the AI didn't put a slave collar on its pretender, just had a hilariously bad RNG result after an indie fight :VYeah see the way I know this isn't what happened is that Yomi started surrounded by throne provinces and never managed to expand past its capital. So it never won a battle, probably because it STUCK A FUCKING SLAVE COLLAR ON ITS PRETENDER :P
Post by: Shadowlord on July 24, 2016, 10:11:33 am
Post by: Frumple on July 24, 2016, 11:28:59 am
Yeah see the way I know this isn't what happened is that Yomi started surrounded by throne provinces and never managed to expand past its capital. So it never won a battle, probably because it STUCK A FUCKING SLAVE COLLAR ON ITS PRETENDER :PNo, no... that's not a guarantee. Events can cause battles, too, and while as far as I can recall they're incredibly unlikely (save for the troll) to generate anything with an item, I'm pretty sure it's still possible. If collars really can be picked up post fight, there's still a(n incredibly small) chance Yomi could have basically landed on just about the worst RNG results in the history of D4, instead of making a rather impressively bad decision.
... it's bloody close to certain it was the AI being an idiot, but... it might not have been. The possibility may be there (assuming slave collars actually can be picked up*).
*Which if they can, I'm totally going to have to remember collar bombing as a tactic if I ever run a blood nation. Mass produce scouts and collars, send them into a vital enemy army to die and cripple important stuff~
Post by: E. Albright on July 24, 2016, 02:57:11 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 24, 2016, 07:12:58 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on July 24, 2016, 08:04:38 pm
Post by: George_Chickens on July 25, 2016, 10:37:53 am
Actually, for that matter, what are the requirements for raising a corpse from its slumber?
Post by: Shadowlord on July 25, 2016, 10:52:25 am
Post by: Jilladilla on July 25, 2016, 08:19:06 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 01, 2016, 09:48:46 am
Post by: catoblepas on August 01, 2016, 01:35:41 pm
Post by: Kagus on August 01, 2016, 03:58:50 pm
While dicking around with new pretender designs (pretty much the only thing I ever do), I mentally pronounced the EA nation of Berytos as "Burritos".
There is no hope for me. Save yourselves.
Post by: Jilladilla on August 01, 2016, 04:05:15 pm
Any intrest in another near vanilla game, small-ish (8) and fast-ish? Last one went by in a flash tbh and was great.Count me interested.
Post by: E. Albright on August 01, 2016, 05:09:21 pm
Does anyone have access to a sprite dump from the most recent version? The one I am using for my modding is missing a lot.
To my knowledge, 4.26 had no changed sprites, so the link to 4.25 (http://steamcommunity.com/app/259060/discussions/0/357288572132316534/) here should be the most recent one.
Post by: Kagus on August 03, 2016, 12:55:53 pm
Normally, adding points onto an already-known path will cost 8-16-24-etc design points per skill level, but adding one point onto any of the Bouda Father's base paths will cost 16, not 8.
Is this just some of Hyena's trickery, or is this unintentional?
Post by: AlStar on August 03, 2016, 11:06:20 pm
Any intrest in another near vanilla game, small-ish (8) and fast-ish? Last one went by in a flash tbh and was great.After the missteps I made last vanilla game, I wouldn't mind trying another.
Post by: E. Albright on August 03, 2016, 11:38:02 pm
Post by: Kagus on August 04, 2016, 07:00:59 am
It's been a while since I last played. One of the "new" additions since that time was the "fire and keep distance" command, which I've now fallen very much in love with. There's a looot of fun dickery that can be done with skirmishers...
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 04, 2016, 07:29:45 am
Post by: BFEL on August 04, 2016, 07:44:47 am
Goodness! An error? In Dominions? Never thought I'd see the day...Yeah, I never can get that to work, or at least not the way I expect it to. I heard a rumor or something that they were mixed up or something and that regular "fire" made them keep distance while "fire and keep distance" made them chase things.
It's been a while since I last played. One of the "new" additions since that time was the "fire and keep distance" command, which I've now fallen very much in love with. There's a looot of fun dickery that can be done with skirmishers...
But then they seem to just ignore me either way and get ganked so fuck if I know.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 04, 2016, 11:28:08 am
I thought it would be great on flying archers, and yet when I tried it on them, they also only walked backwards slowly. :-\
Now I just leave them on "fire" and if something closes, I just expect them to try to beat it to death with their bows.
Post by: Kagus on August 05, 2016, 06:19:51 am
Really, it's mostly about pulling enemy formations out of position than anything else. Against heavily armored front line troops, it outpaces them and harasses them backwards across the battlefield so your heavy-hitters can flank and surround them, while still providing the occasional lucky shot. Against lightly-armored troops, the constant supply of missiles will actually do a pretty decent number on the enemy troops, which helps balance out the fact that you won't be able to effectively lead them away quite as far.
And yeah, it doesn't work on flying archers because of the way the game handles flight movement, and the rather low movepoints flying units generally have because of that. Mounted archers, on the other hand, make very good use of it. Provided, of course, that they actually have an avenue of escape and aren't hemmed in by dense formations.
I also use it for javelin infantry on a flank, because it means they'll hurl their spears at the approaching enemy without immediately getting tied up by them and thus melting. Once they're out of ammunition they'll engage as per usual, but by that time the enemy is either in position for being flanked or is otherwise softened up by the javelin shots, without having too many try-hards from the javelin squad get caught in the friendly fire zone.
Also, a point worth noting is that they'll only retreat from their targeted squad, not from other troops moving in on their position. So if you've got a block with, say, "fire and keep distance archers", they'll target an archer squad and make sure they keep a healthy distance from their daggers, while completely ignoring the forward infantry line directly in front of them.
Post by: George_Chickens on August 05, 2016, 10:17:57 am
Post by: E. Albright on August 05, 2016, 10:29:05 am
Post by: Shadowlord on August 05, 2016, 10:43:15 am
What are the best two spell groups in your opinions, and why are they blood and death magic?
Blood and death magic, because you can create vampire lords who create vampires and spam undead in battle. Also infernal disease. :P
Post by: E. Albright on August 05, 2016, 10:58:14 am
So, yeah. I'm gonna stand by my actual answer (rather than my smart-mouthed pseudo-answer) of "not enough information to make a reasonable judgement".
Post by: BFEL on August 05, 2016, 01:19:24 pm
Death is good because its quite simply the best at getting your army size up, bar fucking none, and not only that but pretty much all its good stuff is in enchantment, so you don't have to waste research on other paths to make good use of it. (there ARE good spells in other paths obv, but enchantment is deaths bread and butter)
Nature I like because it has the BEST GODDAMN GLOBALS. ALL OF THEM. It also has stuff like mass regeneration, and can generally keep your armies alive and kicking. Kinda disappointing that the "normal" healing spells it has are basically worthless due to the way Dominions works, but ah well.
Also synergizes surprisingly well with Death magic.
Earth is cool because it has probably the SECOND best globals, and its just generally the most useful path for construction period. Also earth elementals are awesome and spamming them is hilarious.
Blood is good because you can actually control your "gem" supply with it and it has a buttload of good spells all in its own category, so you don't have to waste research on other shit.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 05, 2016, 02:37:31 pm
Post by: Kagus on August 05, 2016, 03:44:47 pm
Hehehe... Has anyone done Bogarus stealth cults? Between the fivefold angels, lucky B1 skoptsy and a screen of khlysty, you can have a sneaky, roaming sabbath that can show up somewhere, drop blood rain and whatever else on the PD, and then scoop up some more slaves and leave behind one severely f'ed-up province for the other guy to clean up.
But yeah, I quite like air magic too. You've got illusions for padding, the aforementioned awesome forging, some pretty wicked globals/rituals (particularly when combined with a secondary path of some sort), and some absolutely terrifying battle magic. Plus all their spells are generally cheaper, fatigue-wise. I've also got a soft spot for the fire-water crosspath, because acid spells are great for cleaning stuff.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to building my swan army.
Post by: E. Albright on August 05, 2016, 03:57:51 pm
fire lets you be a complete dork and give a nataraja 4 fire bolas.
Not to be a nitpicky pedant, but you misspelled "give an Ancient Kraken five Fire Bolas, a Copper Arm, and an Amulet of the Fish" pretty badly, and technically that takes Air, Water, Earth, and Fire, even if it's soooooooo worth it...
(Also: don't forget to get a point of Water and script Quicken Self so you're flinging 10 low-accuracy bolas per turn from your fearsome stealthy death machine...)
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 05, 2016, 04:54:36 pm
Basically won my first MP game with ociana because I could just slap some gems and gear on a pan to Counter whatever people where (ab-)using, while also turning ok troops op.
Also, still the best gemgens & Globals, with Solid gear.
Death is a one Trick Pony for the most part and blood touch of a Hassel & Mage turn Investment.
Post by: Kagus on August 05, 2016, 05:50:48 pm
fire lets you be a complete dork and give a nataraja 4 fire bolas.
Not to be a nitpicky pedant, but you misspelled "give an Ancient Kraken five Fire Bolas, a Copper Arm, and an Amulet of the Fish" pretty badly, and technically that takes Air, Water, Earth, and Fire, even if it's soooooooo worth it...
(Also: don't forget to get a point of Water and script Quicken Self so you're flinging 10 low-accuracy bolas per turn from your fearsome stealthy death machine...)
Wouldn't it be 20 bolas, since it fires two shots each time? Or was that changed?
Post by: E. Albright on August 05, 2016, 06:09:26 pm
Post by: George_Chickens on August 05, 2016, 06:39:35 pm
Post by: Karlito on August 05, 2016, 07:11:04 pm
Post by: E. Albright on August 05, 2016, 09:07:14 pm
Post by: Kagus on August 05, 2016, 10:07:00 pm
Ermor is definitely swampiest of the swampies, but their "decent" units are kinda hit and miss. And, as mentioned, needs a bless.
Nazca (not sure if that's what you mean by "mummies", since C'tis also has mummies and one could make an argument for Ashdod's undead summons) has a whole bunch of chaff options, from slaves to reanimators to just a bunch of cheap easily-massed basic troops. For their decent dudes, they've got those ethereal flying sacreds you can summon via a spell or just spawn for free, but like Ermorian lictors they're mainly only noteworthy if you've got a nice hot bless for them to wreck things with.
Without a bless though, those mummy bundles are absolutely terrifying battlemages. Not particularly mobile, but they have "innate spellcaster", 0 encumbrance and generally good paths. There's even a hero bundle who is capable of casting 3 spells a turn like it was no big deal.
Then there's stuff like Shinuyama's cheap bakemono-sho grunts, and their excellent sorcerors, plus other battle-ready commanaders and some decent elite troops. There's also Ur, which has recruit-everywhere everythings so you can amass a horde across multiple provinces, although as far as "decent units" go it's kind of a gray area.
EA and MA Pangaea can send freespawn maenad swarms, and Pan always has some good troops available for heavy hitting... LA R'lyeh gets some freespawn swarms too, but not to as huge an extent as Ermor. That said, R'lyeh's decent troops are... Seriously terrifying.
Xibalba has massive swarms of recruitable troops, but not a lot of elite units outside of summons.
I guess it kinda depends on whether you specifically want a freespawn nation like Ermor, Lemuria, Asphodel; reanimator/summon nations such as Lanka, C'tis, Nazca, Mictlan; or just readily-recruitable horde nations such as Ur, Xibalba, Shinuyama, Jotunheim or Bandar Log.
Heck, there's even stuff like LA Ulm with wolfherds/vampire counts making their chaff, backed up by the always exemplary Ulmish footsoldiers and knights.
...and then there's Therodos. Nobody knows what the hell Therodos is.
Post by: Culise on August 05, 2016, 10:30:40 pm
...and then there's Therodos. Nobody knows what the hell Therodos is.Nerf-hammered into the ground, last I recall. They start weak, reach a mediocre mid-game, then descend into oblivion late-game if they haven't somehow already been wiped out. Mages are either poor-quality or both expensive and cap-only, freespawn is weak, and your dominion will literally murder your own gold income, making gold-recruiting a tricky endeavor. Their best bet is powerful sacreds and sneaking through a throne victory, but even that's not a great bet. I wonder if Asphodel isn't a good comparison for Therodos, as far as effectiveness is concerned.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on August 05, 2016, 10:46:40 pm
Mind you I'll never play either of those nations in a serious game so... Take this all with a big grain of salt. But I still feel like the two are separate in terms of effectiveness.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 05, 2016, 10:50:06 pm
I love it, I'm just not good at it.
Post by: George_Chickens on August 05, 2016, 10:52:24 pm
I never really got the gist of Dominions 4, as I was always pretty good at managing the armies and to a lesser extent, the equipment, but I'm just really bad at magic, both using and countering it.1: Accumulate gems
I love it, I'm just not good at it.
2: Give gems
3: Attack enemy with 5 mages and an army
Post by: Jilladilla on August 06, 2016, 01:44:38 am
You can play Ermor and get a good bless on your Lictors. Takes a while to set up a good base for reanimating, but once it gets going...
I'll just throw my two cents into this and say that yes, this very much works, better yet, you're Ermor, only scales you care about are luck and magic, so dual bless is easy to get, tri-bless with some minor sacrifices.
Although I will note that from what I remember of that game (it was a while ago) my mage presence felt... Rather bad... So don't linger too long.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 06, 2016, 01:56:35 am
But Asphodel is pretty good, if I remember correctly. Their mages are effective, freespawn are good (for freespawn), have plenty of national spells for buffing and access to the summons needed for a late-game, gold-light economy. Not to meantion that what troops they have are good instead of mediocre/questionable, so the early game is not as rough.
Personally, I think Asphodel is terrible, but that's solely based on experience playing against them in MP (in multiple games) - fighting them ranged from 'easy' to 'trivial' in difficulty. Even when I was playing Ulm and being ground down by C'Tis, I had no trouble destroying Asphodel's armies whenever they tried to invade my lands. They don't have any sacred summons, and their only sacred unit costs 55 gold and is cap only. You could give them a water bless to try to make them unhittable in melee - it won't save them from arrows or magic, but maybe you can invade some people. Throw in a nature bless too, perhaps, to try to keep them alive longer.
There was one time I was playing MP where Asphodel managed to take over half the world. Of course, I was playing Agartha, had taken over the other half of the world, and had no trouble taking their thrones, destroying the thousands of troops they sent to stop me, and winning the game. (If they had invaded me at the beginning of the game, they could've taken me out, I expect, but they didn't. Unless magma children are immune to sleep vines. I can't recall if it's lifeless or mindless which is immune.)
Post by: Kagus on August 06, 2016, 05:36:27 am
However, unlike Ermor, they also get some big fat bastards from time to time, like mandragora beasts or just some dead elephants. Pretty sure they also get some sacred spawn, but that's hardly worth bothering with in any real way.
Their mages can be a bit beefy, and recuperation means that they can shrug off feeblemindedness or whatnot, although that's not really a huge selling point. Paths are rather limited though, so you're gonna want some diversity in there from other sources. You've got loads of death though, so feel free to supplement your manikins with other deadites who actually hit things that've been knocked out by the sleep vines, and you've got lots of nature too so you can GoR anything that looks like it'd be a nice thug, which can be particularly fun seeing as they keep the sleep vine attacks even when kitted out with weapons.
Outside of that, you've got all those lovely stealthy, recuperating, better-than-human soldiers available to Pan, so raiding and harassment are big deals. The difference is, as Asphodel, you also get a bulk of freespawn that can serve as a distraction or as blockers on your frontier while the lively troops cause hell behind enemy lines. Asphodel's spawn aren't meant to really kill anything, they just wear the enemy out by requiring more magic blasting, dishing out loads of fatigue damage, and having a special version of mass regeneration available as soon as you get someone with 4H.
I'unno, I'm just pulling this out of my ass.
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 06, 2016, 07:22:02 am
Post by: BFEL on August 06, 2016, 07:40:52 am
Post by: Shadowlord on August 06, 2016, 09:44:04 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 06, 2016, 10:35:43 am
You can't put them in formations, or give them orders. They start in a shitty formation of "like box but spread crazy far apart"I wrote 'commanders', didn't I? E.g. barbarian chief.
Post by: AlStar on August 06, 2016, 01:28:41 pm
It doesn't do anything on commanders.You can't put them in formations, or give them orders. They start in a shitty formation of "like box but spread crazy far apart"I wrote 'commanders', didn't I? E.g. barbarian chief.
Post by: Kagus on August 06, 2016, 03:25:04 pm
Post by: Jilladilla on August 06, 2016, 04:21:33 pm
Isn't there a spell/effect that can turn a commander into a standard troop? Like, just strip them of their commander status? Or was that only in CoE?
IIRC Enslave spells do that.
Post by: BFEL on August 06, 2016, 05:42:11 pm
DAMN IT READING COMPREHENSIONYou can't put them in formations, or give them orders. They start in a shitty formation of "like box but spread crazy far apart"I wrote 'commanders', didn't I? E.g. barbarian chief.
Anyway, anyone use the "Transform" nature spell regularly? The one that turns the caster into an animal I mean. Kinda curious about it, seemed like a good thing to make Avalon Crones and the like less old, wondering if that is a decent thing or not?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 06, 2016, 05:46:15 pm
It works well if you do it early, but even better is a mother oak early - afterall each turn afterwards means more cash in return - but it certainly takes long. Consider it a investment, much like forts.
Also, you will lose like 2 in 8 to bullshit forms, even if the stats and other factors suggest a better outcome.
Post by: E. Albright on August 06, 2016, 07:28:10 pm
Post by: Micro102 on August 07, 2016, 02:13:04 am
Post by: Shadowlord on August 07, 2016, 03:02:13 am
Played this game too much and burnt out my desire to play it a long time ago.
In MP or SP?
Post by: Kagus on August 07, 2016, 07:34:00 am
Post by: E. Albright on August 07, 2016, 09:33:43 am
Played this game too much and burnt out my desire to play it a long time ago. Convince me to play it again.
My solution to "keep it fresh" has been to get involved in modding and thus mostly play to test out whatever new abomination the mod project I work on is spewing out. The reduced-sized doses helps... as does the randomness coming from almost entirely playing NationGen games...
Post by: Karlito on August 07, 2016, 10:15:20 am
For the first time ever, I have finally understood what the water magic path icon is supposed to look like... I always thought it was a funky looking wave before. Now I see that it's a tiny little goblet pouring out water.You just changed my life.
Post by: Cruxador on August 07, 2016, 10:32:40 am
Played this game too much and burnt out my desire to play it a long time ago. Convince me to play it again.Nah. Your desire will regrow in time, or not. Just hang around somewhere that games start and people talk about such things a lot, and you'll probably get bit by the 2h bug again.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 07, 2016, 02:03:50 pm
Post by: Kagus on August 07, 2016, 05:25:46 pm
Easiest way to check would be to set up a little test game and have a pretender or water mage bring some of them into an underwater province.
Post by: BFEL on August 09, 2016, 02:00:26 am
Besides sometimes turning you into trolls, yetis, and giants, Transform can also net you new magic paths from time to time. The reason a lot of people like the idea of it is that it eliminates upkeep in most (but not all) cases. It's best if you have a way to fix Feebleminding, though.You can FIX feebleminding?
Post by: Kagus on August 09, 2016, 05:50:16 am
Feebleminding is, however, the one major weakness with the Blood Feast spell, or whatever it's called... It's a bit tricky to cast a wound-removing ritual when all your magic paths have disappeared.
Post by: BFEL on August 09, 2016, 09:16:58 am
This just happened on one of those fucked "Monolith and shitton of Watchers" thrones (i.e. the worst one by far)
While I still ended up winning, I woulda had a LOT less casualties if they had just done what I goddamn told them to.
Also, how would you guys rank the level 3 thrones independents?
Mine has the above as the literal worst thing ever, followed by the one with the Great Mother+infinity vinemen, then the Annunaki of the Sky with the shitton of eagles who promptly get turned mistform (though this one CAN get worse then the Great Mother one in certain situations), and with the Annunaki of the Underworld as shit tier scrubs by comparison.
I THINK that's all of them, right?
Post by: Karlito on August 09, 2016, 10:13:23 am
You know what I HATE more then anything in this game? When my mages don't follow their scripts. I told you guys to use Ground Army, Mass Regeneration, and Army of Lead FOR A GODDAMN REASON. Ignoring my commands is irritating enough. Ignoring my commands AND THEN WASTING ALL YOUR GEMS ON THINGS I DIDN'T TELL YOU TO USE is un-fucking-forgivable.This always happens as a result of giving mages a script they can't actually complete, usually from fatigue costs. For example, Ground Army requires earth 4 to cast, but it causes 200 fatigue so an E4 mage needs another two gems to actually cast it.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 09, 2016, 10:29:46 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 09, 2016, 10:42:40 am
I think it may also happen if the battle AI decides the enemies are not threatening enough to waste your precious gems on, and ignore scripting.You know what I HATE more then anything in this game? When my mages don't follow their scripts. I told you guys to use Ground Army, Mass Regeneration, and Army of Lead FOR A GODDAMN REASON. Ignoring my commands is irritating enough. Ignoring my commands AND THEN WASTING ALL YOUR GEMS ON THINGS I DIDN'T TELL YOU TO USE is un-fucking-forgivable.This always happens as a result of giving mages a script they can't actually complete, usually from fatigue costs. For example, Ground Army requires earth 4 to cast, but it causes 200 fatigue so an E4 mage needs another two gems to actually cast it.
Post by: E. Albright on August 09, 2016, 11:06:00 am
From my POV, the worst L3 throne is icarids and spring hawks.
Post by: Wysthric on August 09, 2016, 03:16:23 pm
WHY DID THEY HAVE TO MAKE THE CUP THE SAME SHADE OF BLUE HRRRNGGHHHFor the first time ever, I have finally understood what the water magic path icon is supposed to look like... I always thought it was a funky looking wave before. Now I see that it's a tiny little goblet pouring out water.You just changed my life.
Post by: Kagus on August 09, 2016, 06:53:41 pm
It's probably an ice goblet pouring water out while underneath the sea, knowing W path. Actually, it kinda resembles the Sea King's Goblet...WHY DID THEY HAVE TO MAKE THE CUP THE SAME SHADE OF BLUE HRRRNGGHHHFor the first time ever, I have finally understood what the water magic path icon is supposed to look like... I always thought it was a funky looking wave before. Now I see that it's a tiny little goblet pouring out water.You just changed my life.
Also, it occured to me that the icon for blood is either a bowl dripping blood, or a literal red blood cell. I'm not sure which one I think it is.
Sometimes I think about Dom 4 in comparison to the original Dominions, and some of the various changes that have happened along the way.
Like, back then, clams made permanent gems and were only W2 (similarly, fever fetishes and blood stones were eminently abusable)... Forge cost reductions were percentage-based rather than a set number of gems, which could result in stuff like a 75% gem cost reduction. Quickness allowed for double spellcasting. You would pick a castle type during pretender creation, and that would be your nation's castle type in all areas and situations, with the cheapest requiring only 2 turns to construct...
One thing I really miss from Dom1 is the dynamic map though.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on August 09, 2016, 10:36:33 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 10, 2016, 02:28:25 am
Post by: Shadowgandor on August 10, 2016, 04:12:16 am
I am kinda dissapointed at how tarrasque, eater of dead, swamp abomination and other super units seem not that much useful.
Eater of dead can actually become an unstoppable juggernaut if you summon it and keep it on a province with plenty of dead bodies. Eventually it'll berserk and turn on you, but by then it'll be a near invincible super killing machine
Post by: George_Chickens on August 10, 2016, 06:12:31 am
Ummm, that doesn't sound like a good thing to me.I am kinda dissapointed at how tarrasque, eater of dead, swamp abomination and other super units seem not that much useful.
Eater of dead can actually become an unstoppable juggernaut if you summon it and keep it on a province with plenty of dead bodies. Eventually it'll berserk and turn on you, but by then it'll be a near invincible super killing machine
Post by: Shadowgandor on August 10, 2016, 07:26:47 am
Ummm, that doesn't sound like a good thing to me.I am kinda dissapointed at how tarrasque, eater of dead, swamp abomination and other super units seem not that much useful.
Eater of dead can actually become an unstoppable juggernaut if you summon it and keep it on a province with plenty of dead bodies. Eventually it'll berserk and turn on you, but by then it'll be a near invincible super killing machine
It is when it gets released near your enemy :P
Post by: Kagus on August 12, 2016, 03:24:16 pm
Also, is it just me, or are jags a hell of a lot less impressive now than they used to be?
I also noticed that the Jotunheim Gygja had some rather bizarrely low attack values... Then I realized that the "slap" attack wasn't being counted as an intrinsic attack, so both the slap and the quarterstaff were penalized by the staff's length because of "dual-wielding" without ambidexterity.
I've also done a little reading, and learned about some of the weirdness regarding blood blesses... Namely, that trampling ignores blood vengeance. You can trample over as many B9 sacreds as you like without triggering the retaliation... Which is a bit odd. On the flipside, it CAN reflect damage that's negated by luck, twist fate, etherealness or even air shield. So while the sacred itself won't take damage, the attacker will get hit with however much damage it would have dealt...
Post by: Shadowlord on August 12, 2016, 03:44:06 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 13, 2016, 02:32:47 am
Its a gimmik, one that Counters some things hard and that can be stoped equally hard. Was fun thou.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 13, 2016, 03:16:30 am
Water is a really good bless, and so is nature if your units won't die in one hit. Depending on the nation's sacreds' natural armor and defense, earth may or may not be better than water.
Death is mostly good for undead or regenerating troops, IMHO, and for giving sacreds the ability to hit things that can only be hit by magic weapons. Fire works better than death for magical attack-ness. I don't think blood is good at all, and I don't think astral is either.
I've also found that a nation with strong national troops and mages (for example, MA Marignon) can be better served by taking strong scales rather than a bless, to boost income, production, and give population growth. Massive amounts of troops, and good mages, can beat a lot of blessed troops (Agartha is probably best suited to thumb its nose at conventional armies).
Post by: E. Albright on August 13, 2016, 09:29:04 am
I don't think blood is good at all, and I don't think astral is either.
I've never tried doing so, but I'm told it's quite effective for reanimation nations if they can intersperse some (preferably undead) sacreds with the chaff - it makes the chaff much, much harder to counter.
Post by: Kagus on August 13, 2016, 09:48:16 am
The minor bless effect also has some interesting effects with some sacreds, like EA T'ien Ch'i's heavenly fire demons. Throwing weapon damage and range is generally affected by strength values, so you can pump that up a little. Jomonese tengu also get their AN lightning attacks buffed by a few points, if that's important to y'all.
Outside of flagellants, another fun pick for a blood bless is someone with those ancestral spirit battle summons. Just pop a bunch of those out and let the enemy kill themselves by striking the spirits.
Speaking of ancestral spirits, a fire bless can be pretty funny on them since they generally don't deal any direct damage, but the fire bless applies the 6 AP damage to their paralyze attack. Same deal for death bless, which also makes them hang around a lot longer (but doesn't give them the bonus attack value they desperately need).
Post by: Jilladilla on August 13, 2016, 01:02:56 pm
(Agartha is probably best suited to thumb its nose at conventional armies).
As an Agartha player, I agree with this so very much. (LA Agartha less so though. Why they don't have the ability to summon mercuries directly makes little thematic sense to me... Balance wise though?... Those guys (the mercuries) are far too receptive to being buffed...)
On the topic of blesses, some are worth it, some are not, I prefer minor blesses with good scales though.
Post by: Kagus on August 13, 2016, 03:03:01 pm
However, the game really doesn't have many sacred archers, and the folks who have them as national units generally only have them as cap-only, helping to reduce their massing potential.
And yeah, it really depends what kind of chassis you have available to you. Some really need/make use of major blesses, others don't really care that much and do just as well with the statboosts of minor blessing.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 13, 2016, 03:58:34 pm
Post by: Kagus on August 13, 2016, 05:56:29 pm
Repel is... Y'know, I don't know what to think about it anymore. The change from "attacker makes attack anyway but takes 1hp damage" to "attacker loses attack" made it considerably more useful, but the change from "attacker must make morale check" to "attacker's defense vs. defender's attack" means that pretty much anyone with a shield will have a decent chance of slipping past the line. I guess that's kinda it then, they're just there to push off peeps like flagellants or barbarians.
Ironically, it also means that mounted cavalry units are particularly good at sneaking past pikes, since they tend to have amped defense values.
EDIT: Marble Oracle's stone club has "material composition: Flammable". I suppose everything is flammable if things get hot enough... Or something.
Post by: Karlito on August 15, 2016, 11:26:32 am
Post by: Frumple on August 15, 2016, 11:46:03 am
... is all I really have to say :V
Post by: E. Albright on August 15, 2016, 12:00:28 pm
Pretty sure repel damage is no longer a thing; the attacker now only loses their attack if they fail the def check.
Per the manual (and a quick test), repel damage is still a thing. It's not listed in the in-game combat log even at detail level 3, but attackers who are "partially repelled" still take damage.
Post by: Jilladilla on August 15, 2016, 03:44:19 pm
So, there's a multi-community disciple game (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=3050) that's being organized. I was going to try and get a disciple match organized here after round 22 had run down, but if there's another two or three people interested in teaming up with me and participating in this game, I'd be down.
I'm up for joining forces with my fellow Bay12 Dom4 players, who's with us?
Post by: Micro102 on August 15, 2016, 04:22:15 pm
Re: the bless discussion from yesterday: Always minor earth. No exceptions, everything else is secondary. Every nation, every strategy, even if you don't have native sacred mages, even if you're going scales. Always minor earth.
... is all I really have to say :V
I like the earth blessing for sacred mages, but isn't it almost useless on sacred troops? It seems like it would only help vs incredibly and unrealistically long battles or spammed fatigue spells.
Post by: Kagus on August 15, 2016, 06:14:02 pm
Re: the bless discussion from yesterday: Always minor earth. No exceptions, everything else is secondary. Every nation, every strategy, even if you don't have native sacred mages, even if you're going scales. Always minor earth.
... is all I really have to say :V
I like the earth blessing for sacred mages, but isn't it almost useless on sacred troops? It seems like it would only help vs incredibly and unrealistically long battles or spammed fatigue spells.
1) Depends on the sacred.
2) No, not really. Fatigue racks up after just a few turns and can quickly become a problem. Fatigue destroys your defense skill long before you hit 100 and pass out. Staying fresh is always nice.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 16, 2016, 06:27:21 am
Post by: Kagus on August 16, 2016, 06:29:55 am
Post by: Frumple on August 16, 2016, 11:55:47 am
This, pretty much. Fatigue is what kills easier than almost anything in the game, and is one of the reasons that thugs/SCs that aren't fatigue neutral (or better) are another way of saying "dead", most of the time. Pretty sure it also jacks up the chance of getting crit, though that may be a knock-on effect on the defense penalties.QuoteI like the earth blessing for sacred mages, but isn't it almost useless on sacred troops? It seems like it would only help vs incredibly and unrealistically long battles or spammed fatigue spells.
1) Depends on the sacred.
2) No, not really. Fatigue racks up after just a few turns and can quickly become a problem. Fatigue destroys your defense skill long before you hit 100 and pass out. Staying fresh is always nice.
There's a very, very few amount of non-caster sacreds reinvig doesn't help a fair bit on, and they're mostly undead (and (almost?) all of the nations with sacred undead have sacred casters to some extent or another). It's less useful on low fatigue or out-of-combat fatigue neutral sacreds (and I can't recall if there's any nations that have those but not sacred casters, sooooo...), but still helpful, and means you can do a fair bit more with any sacred indie mages you happen across, of which there are quite a lot.
Minor earth is basically the most versatile bless in the entire game, bar none, without exception. Just about everything benefits from it, and a lot of nations benefit a lot from it. Add on that getting it means you have guaranteed access to dwarven hammers and, well...
Always minor earth. Always.
Post by: AlStar on August 16, 2016, 12:02:55 pm
I got one from an event. It's a horrible leader - couldn't even control the base yetis that it came with, but with 46 HP, 22 strength, 13 attack skill, and a chill aura, it feels like there ought to be some minor thugging that could be accomplished.
Post by: E. Albright on August 16, 2016, 12:07:31 pm
Always minor earth. Always.
Enh, MA Agartha could get away without it (statues don't care, and their casters can already get some reinvig by virtue of being earth), or any nation w/o sacred casters and an intent to go scales over sacred also works. Oh, and those nations with china tigers for sacreds don't get that much out of earth-minor (though major may be another story) - if you can't survive in extended melee, fatigue is the least of your worries.
So I'd say very often before I'd say always. It's incredibly versatile, but it's not always worth the design points...
Can anyone think of anything interesting I can do with a commander Yeti?
Duuuuuh. Fire Bolos, Jade Armor, Boots of Giant Strength, Amulet of the Bear, Eye of Aiming. Four 32-damage, 32-range, 0-fatigue entrapping magic projectiles per turn for 25 turns, for a mere 45 gems spread across five paths. It's a pity the bolos overwrite the built-in Sticks and Stones or you could add another four r32 d29 projectiles per turn for the first 15 turns...
(Thrifty AND practical, that's me!)
Post by: Karlito on August 16, 2016, 02:31:25 pm
Can anyone think of anything interesting I can do with a commander Yeti?
I got one from an event. It's a horrible leader - couldn't even control the base yetis that it came with, but with 46 HP, 22 strength, 13 attack skill, and a chill aura, it feels like there ought to be some minor thugging that could be accomplished.
I suggest you forge some artifacts and send him to solo my capital.
Post by: Kagus on August 17, 2016, 10:47:03 am
...or at least it would, if the spell actually worked in any real way. Only the astral magic path is provided to the vessel, no holy/water/death/whatever will get carried over. Also, while a vessel will get a condition that labels it as being a mind slave to an aboleth, the casting aboleth gets no indicator as to whether or not he's projecting his mind into someone else, or who that someone else might be.
As an aside, how does everyone feel about the renaming option? Like, I can understand why some people would want to have it turned off, particularly if someone has a habit of renaming important commanders to "disguise" them... But that also means I can't call Bandar Log's prophet "Rhesus Christ", and I kinda see that as a necessity.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on August 17, 2016, 11:52:22 am
I guess there's a real case for turning it off if you play no-diplo games.
Post by: E. Albright on August 17, 2016, 11:58:12 am
Post by: Frumple on August 17, 2016, 01:46:08 pm
The freespawn undead nations can have a hell of a time of it, too. Fifty thousand rotfleshes, which army is that one leading, nobody knows! I mean, to a degree nobody cares either because they're all herding around several dozen undead chaff, but... still.
And reanimating nations can be even worse. The piles upon piles of commanders they build up tend to not cycle out as easily. Also scouts. Friggin' scouts. You get indie province with scouts, particularly early, and it never stops recruiting and by the end of the game you're not quite sure which scout that message is talking about because you've got five different guys named that.
Post by: Cruxador on August 22, 2016, 09:47:07 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on August 22, 2016, 09:49:47 pm
Post by: Frumple on August 22, 2016, 10:05:51 pm
... it's probably telling I don't rename often :P
Normal play, though, I do tend to remember the names of a few commanders. Usually at least the prophet, unless I'm just using it as a domspread bit. Then maybe heroes, or particularly often used army leaders or battlecasters. Though that does tend to change if I'm playing something like ashen ermor, since, as mentioned, there ends up being like fifty thousand rotfleshes and it becomes increasingly hard to care as the game progresses.
Post by: Micro102 on August 23, 2016, 01:20:50 am
Why are my guys randomly drowning?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 23, 2016, 02:08:46 am
Since it has very little downside and mostly adds flavor, I'm all for renaming.
Post by: Kagus on August 23, 2016, 04:47:35 am
Could someone explain to me why one of my commanders and one squads suddenly drowned? I had 3 commanders with goblets for water breathing. My army goes in fine. They take the province and survive. I move them to a second province and win that battle too, no commander deaths in it. However I get the message that one of my commanders (without one of the goblets) drowns, and I find an entire squad (that was under command of one of the captains with a goblet) gone. They did not route during the battle.
Why are my guys randomly drowning?
He probably tripped and spilled all the air out of it.
Post by: AlStar on August 23, 2016, 09:17:26 am
Could someone explain to me why one of my commanders and one squads suddenly drowned? I had 3 commanders with goblets for water breathing. My army goes in fine. They take the province and survive. I move them to a second province and win that battle too, no commander deaths in it. However I get the message that one of my commanders (without one of the goblets) drowns, and I find an entire squad (that was under command of one of the captains with a goblet) gone. They did not route during the battle.I wasn't even aware that you could use waterbreathing equipment that way (to support a separate commander + troops) - from what I've found, Dominions doesn't usually like it when you do that.
Why are my guys randomly drowning?
I'm not sure when the game checks the waterbreathing requirement, but it might be possible that, due to the order in which your commanders moved into (or out of) a water province, that you lost the support numbers that you needed at some critical moment.
I would very much recommend that you only ever enter the water with non-waterbreathing troops directly under commanders who have objects of waterbreathing - there's just too much that can go wrong otherwise.
Post by: Micro102 on August 23, 2016, 06:03:12 pm
Could someone explain to me why one of my commanders and one squads suddenly drowned? I had 3 commanders with goblets for water breathing. My army goes in fine. They take the province and survive. I move them to a second province and win that battle too, no commander deaths in it. However I get the message that one of my commanders (without one of the goblets) drowns, and I find an entire squad (that was under command of one of the captains with a goblet) gone. They did not route during the battle.I wasn't even aware that you could use waterbreathing equipment that way (to support a separate commander + troops) - from what I've found, Dominions doesn't usually like it when you do that.
Why are my guys randomly drowning?
I'm not sure when the game checks the waterbreathing requirement, but it might be possible that, due to the order in which your commanders moved into (or out of) a water province, that you lost the support numbers that you needed at some critical moment.
I would very much recommend that you only ever enter the water with non-waterbreathing troops directly under commanders who have objects of waterbreathing - there's just too much that can go wrong otherwise.
I can accept that answer for the commander without the goblet, but that doesn't answer my question about the squad under command of a guy with the goblet.
Post by: Kagus on August 23, 2016, 06:26:14 pm
I wouldn't put it past Dom4 mechanics.
EDIT: Y'know, I'd kinda like a north-American civilization to show up. We've got really far-north with the inuit-inspired LA Atlantis, middle/mesoamerica with Xibalba and Mictlan, and even farther south with Nazca. But nothing in that northern stretch with the Iroqouis, Cree, Sioux, Pueblo etc. Plenty of fun myths and stories to draw from the various native nations there.
Post by: BFEL on August 28, 2016, 05:59:42 pm
I WANTED TO GIVE A FIVEFOLD ANGEL A KATANA AND MAKE A GORRILIONFOLD ANGEL BUT NOW MY DREAM IS CRUSHED
Post by: Kagus on August 28, 2016, 06:05:56 pm
Also, swords of any description are rather difficult to wield if you don't, y'know... Have hands. Or similarly dextrous appendages.
Post by: Frumple on August 28, 2016, 06:13:40 pm
Post by: E. Albright on August 28, 2016, 08:01:44 pm
Post by: Frumple on August 28, 2016, 08:04:14 pm
Post by: BFEL on August 28, 2016, 08:30:48 pm
Clearly this means the devs need to implement an item that steals the arms (and weapons) of non-commander troops. Kinda' like with corpse eaters except attacks instead of HP :VSend Super Combatant against Ashen Ermor= over 9000 attacks
Post by: sprinkled chariot on August 29, 2016, 12:20:10 am
Send the eater of dead.Clearly this means the devs need to implement an item that steals the arms (and weapons) of non-commander troops. Kinda' like with corpse eaters except attacks instead of HP :VSend Super Combatant against Ashen Ermor= over 9000 attacks
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 29, 2016, 04:42:49 am
We need more "desperate times, desperate measures" kinds of spells and options anyway.
Post by: Micro102 on August 29, 2016, 06:10:44 am
Post by: Frumple on August 29, 2016, 08:46:12 am
Post by: Kagus on August 29, 2016, 05:08:02 pm
Y'know what bugs me about this game? The little inconsistencies. Ashdod has a couple anakite commanders who get 3 misc slots because they "Adorn themselves with jewelry and practice the cosmetic arts taught by the Watchers like most anakim". First off, if you GoR one of the anakite soldiers, they won't have that extra slot... Apparently they're not of high enough status or something. Alright, I can get that.
However, despite apparently having learned the trick of wearing three rings from Azazel, none of the EA rephaim or nephilim can do that, despite having a closer tie to the original teachers and also being perhaps even more vain. Heck, Azazel himself can't even equip 3 misc slots!
Also kind of weird that you can have a nephil pretender whose texts states he hunted down and devoured all of his kin, but Hinnom can still end up getting Nephilim hero units.
Like, uh... Oops. Guess he missed a couple.
Also I just saw that Xibalba is still having weird minor issues, in the form of its Ah Ha priests wielding "bronze spears", when they're clearly holding nothing more than a dagger... Also the Muuch Batab does not carry an axe, despite the title "Batab" apparently having connotations of axe-wielding.
Post by: Frumple on August 29, 2016, 07:02:24 pm
Post by: Micro102 on August 30, 2016, 12:42:51 am
Post by: Shadowlord on August 30, 2016, 02:56:51 am
You can always recruit indie nature mages and have them make you some supply items, either with converted pearls or after site-searching for nature gem sites.
Or if you have wet ones somewhere in your empire, they're cheap, don't cost many resources, and don't need to eat.
Flames from the sky might work to thin out their numbers - getting a grand master to F5 is relatively easy. I haven't tried that myself, though, so I don't know for sure that it will hit troops defending castles, or whether it will be able to do enough damage to actually kill anyone. You can make a test game to test it, though, if you don't want to blow 30 gems on something that might not work.
Or lots of assassins to try to take out their commanders, but if they can't climb walls, you'd have to stop sieging to use them.
Post by: Kagus on August 30, 2016, 07:32:51 am
Also, I presume this is MA Marignon vs. Mictlan, and not LA? Because that changes things up a bit if it's LA.
Post by: E. Albright on August 30, 2016, 07:54:24 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 30, 2016, 09:48:04 am
Post by: E. Albright on August 30, 2016, 11:44:27 am
Post by: Micro102 on August 31, 2016, 02:37:23 pm
Post by: Kagus on August 31, 2016, 02:46:02 pm
Terracotta army takes fire gems, at least according to the mod inspector. With higher ranks in fire, you get an actually fairly decent deal for the cost.
And if you've got a horde of N1's, get them out searching... You're bound to find SOME nature site sooner or later. Prioritize forests.
Post by: Micro102 on August 31, 2016, 03:11:53 pm
N1 can make bags of wine, +50 supply points for 5 gems, which in worst-case-scenario means 10 pearls. Hammers would of course help, as always.
Terracotta army takes fire gems, at least according to the mod inspector. With higher ranks in fire, you get an actually fairly decent deal for the cost.
And if you've got a horde of N1's, get them out searching... You're bound to find SOME nature site sooner or later. Prioritize forests.
I've got a hammer, will start working on terracotta spam, and of course, the last two territories I search with my nature mages were the ones with the gems.
Post by: Kagus on August 31, 2016, 03:40:17 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on August 31, 2016, 04:16:49 pm
Post by: Micro102 on August 31, 2016, 05:16:23 pm
Nature mages also provide some supply themselves (10/lvl?), so you could always stack them all on your army, if you wanted to. It'd be expensive and inefficient, to be sure.
Hence why I have been building hordes of them :P. 500 nature mages was going to be my backup plan.
Post by: Frumple on August 31, 2016, 05:24:14 pm
Post by: Micro102 on August 31, 2016, 05:53:27 pm
Any reason you can't drop seeking arrows on them until everything stops moving? Or start wind riding enemy commanders out of the place. Unless they've been spamming couatls, most of mict's stuff is pretty small and squishy, so things like that can trim their commander roster fairly effectively if you don't have better options.
Would killing commanders actually make them unable to defend the fortress? Because my problem was sieging the place before my supplies caused all my guys to die.
Post by: Kagus on August 31, 2016, 06:05:26 pm
Anyways, what does MA Mictlan actually... Do? I have kind of a hard time seeing the recruitable couatl making up for the loss of all their blood magic potential. I mean, you've got a lot of good patrollers, but... That's not exactly gonna win you the war on its own.
Post by: Frumple on August 31, 2016, 07:26:13 pm
Would killing commanders actually make them unable to defend the fortress? Because my problem was sieging the place before my supplies caused all my guys to die.Beyond what kag mentioned, even if it doesn't your actual problem is they're attacking from the fortress. If they have no commanders (or at least not enough to do squat) they can't attack :V
Post by: Shadowlord on August 31, 2016, 07:30:36 pm
Post by: Anvilfolk on August 31, 2016, 07:33:56 pm
Post by: Frumple on August 31, 2016, 08:05:37 pm
Post by: BFEL on August 31, 2016, 10:42:06 pm
Post by: Anvilfolk on August 31, 2016, 10:46:16 pm
It could actually be fun to do a Disciples game, and I'd be a disciple. I like cooperation a lot, and if I fail there are others to shore up the defenses ;)
I guess the PVP aspect of it would make me really analyse and get to know the faction to try to min-max it more. I read a bunch of the manual today, so I have a better idea of how things work :)
Maybe see you around future rounds of B12 PBEMS!
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 01, 2016, 02:11:06 am
On that note, super casual near-vanilla Round 23, medium pace - rules basically like round 21, except maybe different throne settings & map, intrest check #2
Round 21:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158361.msg7015442#msg7015442
Post by: Cheeetar on September 01, 2016, 02:28:58 am
Post by: Micro102 on September 01, 2016, 07:17:13 am
Speaking of blood, have you been blood hunting? I consider it vital for Marignon to save grand masters from old age using boots of youth. Anyways, if you have, you could potentially have someone repeatedly horror seed the province, once they've been boosted or empowered enough to cast it.
I find it pretty pointless to dip into blood magic if you don't have any mages with blood magic to start with (MA Marignon). I don't even recall successfully hunting for blood slaves without a blood mage. But to get enough to empower a mage with it? Doesn't seem realistic.
Post by: E. Albright on September 01, 2016, 08:29:20 am
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 01, 2016, 09:30:34 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 01, 2016, 09:41:02 am
A round is hosted once every person has submited a turn. The last permission to submit can simply wait 1-2 minutes and then receive the next turn, so if you really want to, you can do a double turn once every 72 Hours.
Since we are all such busy adults, I find this quite comfortable.
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 01, 2016, 10:34:25 am
Post by: Micro102 on September 01, 2016, 10:48:52 am
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 01, 2016, 11:02:43 am
I think I'm ready for a multiplayer game too. How do they work? What is the time limit on how long you have to make your turn?
Answered two posts above ;) had the same question :)
Post by: Micro102 on September 01, 2016, 11:08:05 am
I think I'm ready for a multiplayer game too. How do they work? What is the time limit on how long you have to make your turn?
Answered two posts above ;) had the same question :)
O, maybe I should have read that most closely, I thought you were asking for the time it takes to play an entire game.
Post by: Kagus on September 01, 2016, 11:52:33 am
But then, Dom2 also had things like fever fetishes, bloodstones and clams. Fun times.
I do actually kinda miss the dominion modifiers you could have... Or was that in 3? I don't remember.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 01, 2016, 12:22:00 pm
Speaking of blood, have you been blood hunting? I consider it vital for Marignon to save grand masters from old age using boots of youth. Anyways, if you have, you could potentially have someone repeatedly horror seed the province, once they've been boosted or empowered enough to cast it.
I find it pretty pointless to dip into blood magic if you don't have any mages with blood magic to start with (MA Marignon). I don't even recall successfully hunting for blood slaves without a blood mage. But to get enough to empower a mage with it? Doesn't seem realistic.
You can do it. It's not as easy as it was in... Dom2, I think? But it can be done. It helps to find a blood income site, and there are more than a few of those, including thrones. But even if not, you can cobble your way up to 55 and start proper collection.
What I do with Marignon is put friars in literally every province and have them blood hunt. They occasionally find stuff, and with so many, it's enough to acquire a fair few blood slaves. It helps that you can recruit friars in every province with a temple, so you don't have to waste fort-turns, just gold.
(And again the main reason is to empower someone to make boots of youth, so Marignon's ancient mages and stuff can stop getting diseases and other afflictions from old age in the middle of wars.)
Post by: Kagus on September 01, 2016, 01:15:57 pm
LA Marignon really misses out on that, I feel... The Missionary is neither stealthy nor has any real leadership ability. All he's got is the sailing, which is big whoop when all he can lead normally is 10 units.
Post by: Nirur Torir on September 01, 2016, 07:10:55 pm
I won a MP game and I still lose to the AI, its a strange world. Personally, while I enjoyed Dom3 (and had some fun with strange hotseat games [look away for 15 mins dude]), playing MP was certainly what made me stick to dom4.I haven't tried MP Dominions yet and am interested.
On that note, super casual near-vanilla Round 23, medium pace - rules basically like round 21, except maybe different throne settings & map, intrest check #2
Round 21:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158361.msg7015442#msg7015442
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 02, 2016, 06:20:58 am
Post by: Micro102 on September 02, 2016, 12:46:52 pm
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 02, 2016, 01:31:07 pm
I would also be up for a disciples game, if some more experienced players would like to take lead on godhood.
Post by: Nirur Torir on September 02, 2016, 02:42:08 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 02, 2016, 03:58:34 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 02, 2016, 04:11:10 pm
I think you're better off using certain of the mass-summon spells. (The ones that throw lightning are pretty nice)
Post by: Micro102 on September 02, 2016, 05:15:22 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 02, 2016, 05:20:07 pm
Belial is amazing for fucking up someone's prized provinces/commanders, Pazuzu is constantly followed by a storm which means he can just bounce around with a bunch of storm demons and make them wreck even more shit than they usually do. Put Buer anywhere near a non-fire resistant army and you can pretty much call it a day, and Geryon... Well, Geryon is a tank. Pretty much.
Ashmedai has his neat paths, the succubi summons and generates 3 blood slaves a month, as well as having overall reasonable stats, Belphegor is a bit less impressive but he does have the blood slave generation as well as his ever-growing horde of spearmen, plus he has 4F4E4B, which means if you have no fire magic he can build himself a booster and singlehandedly call in one of the kings, not to mention that he can do the same for earth but even easier thanks to Pedoseion.
All in all, yeah, I wouldn't say they're particularly worth the bother... But in certain circumstances, it might be worth knowing that those path options are available, however expensive.
Post by: Frumple on September 02, 2016, 07:33:49 pm
Speaking of mass summon spells, how do you guys make use of ivy men spam and corpse construct spam? It doesn't really ever seem to be worth it other than to create a massive choke point in fortresses. Is it really worth the item building to make these summons more efficient?Corpse constructs, definitely, the things are honestly kinda' amazing. They're superlative and rather impressively gem efficient HP sponges if you stick a couple of the boosters on whoever's summoning 'em, if you have need for something that's basically just a bundle of health and sod else (and you'll almost certainly have plenty of situations where you will, so having a supply sitting around is nice if you can field 'em and if you have things that can summon them you have things that can lead them, probably).
Depends a lot of what casters you have, though... folks like the bat doods, who have fairly easy access to A1D1 casters you probably don't have much better to do with makes a solid target. If you've got the items (and a storm spool and the zappy stick are pretty cheap), it's a pretty decent use of their time, and if left alone long enough or enough casters are invested it can give you something that can really jam up an enemy army or five while your actually combat effective stuff gets work done.
Ivy men... well. Let's comparison shop! and vastly bloat the size of this post in the process :V They're less efficient HP/blocking wise -- they start with 3, but their boosters only total up to +4 with the artifact (and that only if the caster has two heads. Realistically it'll cap at +3, with the artifact), and one of those is the staff, which costs 40 nature gems. Meanwhile the constructs start at 1, but get +5 between the two easy items, another +2 from their expensive booster (staff of storms, still 10 gems less than the treelord stick, and +2 over the lightning rod) and +10 from the tome. So the likely base investment would be 4 (just the +1 crown, for 68 hp and 4 size 2 bodies per gem, 1 1/3rd squares blocked) vs 6 (150 HP, 6 size 3 bodies per gem, three squares blocked) per cast, with a kit cost of 5N vs 5E5A -- though it's obvious enough which of those two you're more likely to have the magic access for, heh.
Max output is incredibly telling, though, ha. Vinemen will realistically (very little has two heads, and none of them are worth using to make vinemen -- vine ogres, maybe, but not men. Conceptually you could be using a unit that has built in ivy lord but again if you've got them they probably have a hell of a lot better things to do than summon vinemen... even animists) top out at 6 per batch (102 total hp, 6 size 2 bodies, 2 squares), while the constructs top out at 18 (450 total hp, 18 size 3 bodies, 9 squares), with N50 (max path N6) vs 45A10D (max paths A5D2; and that only loses on 2 constructs (50 HP, 1 square) if you want to swap 30 of that A for 5E and bring the max paths down to A2D2E1). If what you're after is a lump of HP to get in the way, corpse constructs are ridiculously more efficient gem wise, even with just the base boosted loadout. Providing you have access.
Stat wise, the vine men have a bit of protection and 2 attacks (which with the size two makes them theoretically more effective at actually damaging larger targets, but functionally they're not going to be hitting much anyway so *shrugs*), and a bit of attack type resistance, but they lose out on basically everything else, save being not undead (which can indeed be an issue, as the constructs' MR is shite. Vinemen's only one better but they don't have banish to deal with, either)... though they are magic beings, which means it's probably even harder to get commanders for 'em.
... tl;dr: If you're comparing the two the vine men are a lot easier to get to*, but broadly speaking the corpse constructs are a hell of a lot more effective at what you're going to be using them for, more or less always and on every front. Or, saying it another way, you've probably got vine men but spending the gems on them is pretty iffy (among other considerations, you've probably got a lot of better things to be spending the N gems on), whereas you probably don't have constructs but if you do there's not terribly many better uses out there for one air gem and some rando A1D1 caster with a couple trinkets on it.
So yeah. Constructs are worth investing in boosters in, imo, and I definitely try to have a handful of spool/rod summoners set on monthly if I've got access. Vine men... not so much. They're still decent chaff, but unlike the constructs they're not really amazing chaff. Though you're a lot more likely to incidentally end up with their boosters and/or N1 casters, so if you don't actually have to go out of your way for it, it probably won't exactly hurt. Much.
*Just N, only N1 if you want to pump out 4 at a time, vs A1D1E1 if you want 6 constructs a go -- though you're still more gem efficient on HP and roughly on par with obstruction with just 3 constructs via spool and no E access.
and now I have wall of text'd over corpse constructs. folks, i may like corpse constructs i never really get to use them but bloody hell they're just great
Post by: Shadowlord on September 02, 2016, 08:11:23 pm
1. A marble oracle with shock-protection gear (I once took a level 3 throne guarded purely by shock-type monsters (and a pretender-level air magic giant-person) using such a SC, and like with most uses of marble oracle SCs, it was like a hot chainsaw through butter), or
2. A really clever player who knows all the rules and all the tricks, like E. Albright.
Things like flying enemies can be neutralized easily enough by leaving some constructs surrounding the storm demons.
Post by: Kagus on September 02, 2016, 08:20:19 pm
Corpse constructs don't have the protection or the blunt/pierce resist, but they do have elemental resists for cold, shock and poison, whereas the vineboys only resist poison. However, while they do have the perfectly respectable 25 HP, this won't heal outside of a lab.
Everyone is a poor amphibian, so no difference one way or the other as far as that's concerned.
Now, the fact that vinemen/ogres are mindless but not lifeless is rather interesting... They're still 0 encumbrance, but the difference is they'll get affected (and thus targeted) by things like Luck or Drain Life.
Make of that what y'all will.
Post by: E. Albright on September 02, 2016, 09:58:07 pm
Vine ogres are pretty nice. In absolute terms they're barely more expensive than vinemen... and since the base summoning numbers are nearly the same, that means vine ogres actually scale up a lot better with any and all Ivy Lord boosters. The only reason I'd ever summon vine men over vine ogres is absolute desperation coupled with a lack of an ogre-capable mage. If you don't have the paths to summon undead, vine men make passable unroutable lineholders (which can be a pretty huge deal in the face of fear)... but they're not ideal, and if I'm going to the trouble of stacking boosters I want vine ogres instead.
Post by: Kagus on September 03, 2016, 08:35:23 am
...then again, it's bloody expensive. Especially what with how discounts are now fixed gem amounts instead of percentages.
Post by: E. Albright on September 03, 2016, 09:23:10 am
Post by: Kagus on September 03, 2016, 10:49:15 am
But there it's all a question of what you personally view as more available in the situation. Ench7 versus Conj7 versus Cons6.
Post by: E. Albright on September 03, 2016, 12:26:53 pm
(Plus, since they're not immobile, I'm more inclined to do things with them, while tree lords find themselves in the position of casting about for some way to stay busy almost constantly.)
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 03, 2016, 04:33:42 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 03, 2016, 06:36:38 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 03, 2016, 07:07:17 pm
Some indirect stuff you can do, too, I think... darkness, any way to reduce morale at a distance (starvation, etc.), stuff like that. All the horrors (well, save clockwork, but those don't count :V) have fear and darkvision or blind fighting, and the primary ones you blood spell over fly in storms, so anything you can do to leverage that will help out your artillery. If you can preferentially target things in provinces with magic scales, they'll be a bit stronger, too. Can also try the standard curse/disease stuff... basically anything you can to either make the horrors stronger or it more likely they're going to leave a lasting effect even if they don't kill anything.
Post by: Micro102 on September 04, 2016, 02:59:17 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 04, 2016, 03:07:28 am
Is there any way at all to get your hands on a Doom Horror? Doesn't matter if you need a pretender god with level 10 astral and every magic penetration option available and 100 communion slaves. I just want to know if it's possible.
You can wish for horror with wish spell, and there is like 20-50 % chance, that it will turn on the caster.
Otherwise you will get to control it for like 3 turns.
To maximise chances of not getting obliterated you will need to have banish to hell/ kokytos (To gift all those demons in hell !INFINITE FUN! with doom horrors)
Post by: Kagus on September 04, 2016, 08:00:54 am
Even better, what about communicants?
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 04, 2016, 08:49:52 am
Post by: Kagus on September 04, 2016, 12:00:12 pm
Was trying out a fire bless for Bandar Log. The tigers were pretty goddamn scary when they got into melee, whole swathes of enemy troops would just disintegrate on contact. ...only problem was that my archers just seemed to love firing wherever the tiger riders were, so there were a few highly unnecessary injuries.
Anyways, I thought I was doing fairly well for myself, and then I saw my neighbors... On one side, Abysia. On the other, Ashdod. Both some heavy contenders with more than their fair share of fire resistance.
Greeeaaaaaat.
Then Asphodel attacked and started doing the army chase through my provinces, predicting where I was and wasn't going to be and then crapping all over what PD I'd managed to build up... Irritating, since I knew I had a good shot of taking them in a fair fight.
Finally managed to get them to stop by being a sneaky little bastard, but it ended up being a pretty costly move due to stupidity... I got a rishi to teleport in to their army and then cast returning, basically just to get in there before they moved and disrupt their moving out of the way (I was reasonably certain that's how it worked, anyways...). Only problem was I was greedy, and told him to cast a horror mark before pissing off.
Second turn of battle, just before he casts returning, he gets caught by a stray arrow and implodes.
Managed to take out their army with a buttload of spare yogis forming a communion and then blasting the carrion with solar rays, leaving the living beasts for my white ones and elephants to mop up. Worked out reasonably well, all in all... Also pretty sure that's my first time actually using a communion. I'm... Not sure it worked the way I was expecting. I figured the magic boost from communion would let them cast solar rays naturally, but it wasn't represented in their displayed paths and I think they kept using pearls to cast it.
At that point I was getting a bit fed up and designed a new god instead. Meh.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 04, 2016, 12:16:06 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 04, 2016, 01:01:16 pm
I did run a triple bless build in a disciples game. But then I was running with a totally new player so I saw it as the best way to victory.
Post by: Micro102 on September 04, 2016, 08:08:33 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 04, 2016, 09:15:50 pm
In other news, MA Man... Or should I say, MA Monksmonksmonks?
Seriously, just can not get enough of those little freaks. Too damn useful.
Post by: Micro102 on September 05, 2016, 02:27:52 am
Why crone? Crone ain't the bargain pick she used to be. Honestly I don't know why she costs as much as she does nowadays, the only thing she's got going for her now is slightly different inventory slots.
In other news, MA Man... Or should I say, MA Monksmonksmonks?
Seriously, just can not get enough of those little freaks. Too damn useful.
Doesn't she have drastically reduced "new magic path" costs? Meaning you can get the blesses of every magic path for cheaper.
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2016, 03:12:03 am
Though even with that, iirc some of the 20 or 30 cost ones actually crunch out to be cheaper for a multi-bless strat, both for the higher base dom (which is still important, unless you're blessing sacred giants or something and only need to recruit 2-3 a turn... and can somehow to leverage the bless to keep from getting domkilled) and higher/more starting paths.
Post by: George_Chickens on September 05, 2016, 06:14:48 am
Speaking of which, what are the best teams for blood magic in the era?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 05, 2016, 07:15:45 am
Sign Up, we can get started.
The Aim of the game is a balanced, low to medium skill round. If you are expierenced, you are encouraged to play a non-competetive role that you enjoy. I - unless someone else calls dips - will be playing a certain race of tentacle faces and my main goal will be to summon doom horrors for the shits and giggles. My specific, self set rules are:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Anyway, depending on the amount of players we get, I'd be totally fine with making a bunch of 2 player teams with a newb/pro teamup situation and some rogue loners like myself.
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2016, 08:40:30 am
What's everybody's favorite era? I'm most used to the middle ages. I ask because I'm wondering about which era to do the blood magicks in.Definitely early, m'self... so long as I'm not playing freespawn nations. If I am it'd be middle age, with late a very close second.
Though... I think thematically, at least on the net, I kinda' like LA the most. The whole (relatively) low fantasy vs. rampaging gods is a neat backdrop. It's just that EA is a lot more interesting, in general -- more fancy stuff, more variety, etc., etc., etc. If LA's the most interesting me on the net, EA is on every particular. More than the sum of its parts type stuff, heh. On every individual part, EA wins for me, but on the whole it's LA.
MA's just... in between. S'aight, has ermor and asphodel, but otherwise, well... it splits the difference between high points. The compromise age, basically, and, well. You know what they say about compromise. It's the one where no one involved walks away happy :P
Not that I really dislike any of them, mind. Just definitely prefer other-than-middle-age.
---
As for best era for blood magic, it'd almost certainly be early. Early's... basically the best era for any magic, in general. More mages, stronger mages, more magicy bits in on the whole (iirc it's even got a built-in slight boost to magic site rate). If you want to break things with magic it's probably the era you default to muddling around with.
After that it's LA, iirc. Want to say it just has more blood access than MA, though it's certainly soon enough after waking up I could be forgetting the overall compositions.
Post by: Kagus on September 05, 2016, 09:19:53 am
I've been really trying to find a good "fit" nation-wise for LA so I can start appreciating it a bit more.
As far as blood magic is concerned, EA is probably the best bet, yeah. There you've got Mictlan and Lanka, pretty much the two ultimate blood powers. MA is fairly dry as far as that's concerned, it's basically just Abysia and to some extent Pangaea/maybe Jotunheim.
LA picks things up again with a return-to-roots for Mictlana, Bogarus getting jiggy with it, Marignon, Abysia kicking it up a notch, Ulm etc... You'll have more options for bloodiness in LA, but more power doing it in EA.
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2016, 09:46:37 am
Post by: Shadowlord on September 05, 2016, 12:51:13 pm
I haven't really played LA much and tend to just avoid playing it.
Post by: Kagus on September 05, 2016, 01:06:22 pm
Ehehe. MA R'yleh is actually my favorite for that nation. Most of the power of either one, without the domkill or the aquatic casters. Much less trouble to play, imo. Certainly the least thematic of the three but I'll take gold and/or my commanders going where I tell them to over style points just about any day of the week :V
My main gripe is that they don't get void spectres/Dreams of R'lyeh. Or any other way of getting delicious void beasties outside of just the void gate... Although, really, that is still a pretty dang great deal.
Still, LA R'lyeh has a special place in my heart for one very specific reason...
Step 1: Go insane
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Prophet
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 05, 2016, 01:50:59 pm
Might be the general theme/look of it. While all ages have cool nations I think I prefer the comparatively "high" tech/low magic setting. More contrast like that, giants of Gath feel more mythical than giants of Hinnom. Higher tech all around and low-tech LA nations like Gath and Jomon just feel more special amongst all the crossbows and full plates. Settings-wise I prefer LA with EA magic settings. I just can't stand the lack of gems. Far as I'm concerned magic system is big part of the fun in this game and gems directly help or hinder that.
Step 1: Go insane
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Prophet
:D
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2016, 02:11:14 pm
I like LA. Not fully sure why. Less annoying stuff when it comes to popkilling dominions and elves. Though I'm not actually sure if LA has the least popkill.It's matched with MA, isn't it? Asphodel and Ermor, Lemuria and R'yleh. Least popkill is EA, iirc -- far as I recall there's only Therodos (and tbh it's probably the easiest of popkill nations to contain... still has a pretty rough time getting going, from what I recall.). Maybe changes a bit if you include nations that just have popkilling units, but those are the dominion linked ones.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 03:05:53 pm
I like LA. Not fully sure why. Less annoying stuff when it comes to popkilling dominions and elves. Though I'm not actually sure if LA has the least popkill.It's matched with MA, isn't it? Asphodel and Ermor, Lemuria and R'yleh. Least popkill is EA, iirc -- far as I recall there's only Therodos (and tbh it's probably the easiest of popkill nations to contain... still has a pretty rough time getting going, from what I recall.). Maybe changes a bit if you include nations that just have popkilling units, but those are the dominion linked ones.
LA's Pop-kill entirely depends on one faction... think of LA as having all the popkill focused into one single faction who do it far better then any faction in any other period.
So if they aren't in the game... Yeah really low popkill.
Post by: Kagus on September 05, 2016, 03:42:03 pm
Also, just saw a thread where someone said R'lyeh's priests should be able to assemble cultists/hybrids like other nations reanimate the dead. I thought that was kind of a clever idea actually.
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2016, 03:51:33 pm
Ermor and lemuria are about on par as far as popkill goes (though a different focus on unit use, since consuls are freakishly good), and r'yleh is a thing despite how relatively disliked their dom makes 'em to play. Probably less likely to be played than asphodel, but still.
And that... it'd be neat, kag, but significantly less useful than it is for actual reanimators. LA R'yleh already has nightmarish supply issues, heh, and being able to haul in more mouths... maybe pair it with a way to sacrifice said cultists and hybrids for void beasts?
... alternately, just have insanity reduce supply usage. That'd be an incredible usability change for la r'yleh.
Though mind you, a non-undead equivalent to reanimation would be awesome just to have the functionality. Expanded slave gathering or somethin'.
E: Though playing a game of LA r'yleh again, it'd also be pretty amazing if insane troops could group with mindless ones. Notable boost both to player quality of life and the usefulness of said troops.
Post by: Kagus on September 05, 2016, 05:06:55 pm
On another topic, a little fun fact regarding Asphodel... It would appear that F9 bless affects sleep vine attacks.
You can summon a self-blessing 24 hitpoint recuperating chassis with two sleep vines plus one hoof attack, so a total of 7 different attacks each capable of proccing the +6 AP damage. For 8 nature gems. Worth noting.
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2016, 05:18:23 pm
It would also be pretty a'ight on their sacred freespawn, for what it's worth. Iirc it'll work off the ranged attacks, too, and other than the extra vine bow attack and lack of H1 the chassis is pretty much identical. Well... actually, checking it, the carcasses are marginally better than the summoned centaurs -- +2 attack and precision, 3 more morale. Not amphibian, though, and obviously no kit unless you're GoRing sagittarian carcasses for some reason. Or divine word, I guess... can't remember if GoR still works on the manikin stuff.
Lack of self-bless isn't really an issue, either, since asphodel has H3 access on the carrion lords...
E: Ah, actually, no, they're a bit different. Swaps out one sleep vine attack for a vine whip, so it's 7 chances vs 5 + ranged. Bright side, though, that vine whip is a lot more accurate. +4 attack instead of -1, and an extra point of length t'boot.
Post by: Kagus on September 05, 2016, 05:48:09 pm
Just worth noting... And yeah, firing bolts of flaming ivy at the enemy sounds appropriately bizarre.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 05, 2016, 05:49:31 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 05, 2016, 05:56:46 pm
So basically, "yes".
Post by: Frumple on September 05, 2016, 06:03:18 pm
Apparently the reanimation doesn't care about terrain, which is interesting. Can see a nice breakdown a few posts down on this thread (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/asphodel-freespawn-questions).
Post by: Cruxador on September 06, 2016, 12:51:05 am
So, it's totally these conversations that make me scared of trying multiplayer ;)These kinds of shenanigans are mostly just-for-fun things, and multiplayer games rarely get to the stage where they're possible, much less viable.
Did you ever see 4 full blesses pretender builds in multiplayer?( nonmictlan ones)Even for Mictlan, it's rare. It's pretty much a meme build because you need to tank both scales and dominion. You have ways to mitigate the scales, but dominion limits the amount of sacreds per turn that you can get, so the advantage that you're sacrificing everything else for is relatively hobbled; you can't build up fast enough for a rush. Theoretically if you could get to Ozelotls, it would be great, but it's not something I've ever seen pulled off. For nations which don't have massable sacred summons, there's not even that possibility.
There was a meme game once where everyone was required to take a quadbless though. It turned into a desolate wasteland where nobody could afford anything. Anticipating that, I played as Marverni in the hopes that boars would become relevant due to being free and spammable, but was eliminated early due to being a mediocre player with a shit nation (and one critical tactics failure when Light of the North Star failed to go off, turning Stellar Cascade spam into off-script nincompoopery).
Not really in ours. The most likely outcome of a four bless build (especially non-Mictlan) is to ruin one person's game with an early game rush and then lose to everyone else. We have a loose understanding that we're not going to engage in super earlygame rushes, and that build would only be used for that. Under anything approaching normal circumstances, you should be able to get what you want with a triple major (let's be honest, you don't even need that). Adding a fourth major forces you to stick those last, most brutal scales into the red.The most likely outcome of a four bless build is to get your shit wrecked without accomplishing anything. Tribless is as you describe for some nations (giants in particular) but it's a massive mid-game asset for MA Ermor and nations with sacred blood summons, and for those nations it remains a decent edge into the lategame, when the trade-off costs are long since obviated.
I did run a triple bless build in a disciples game. But then I was running with a totally new player so I saw it as the best way to victory.
What's everybody's favorite era? I'm most used to the middle ages. I ask because I'm wondering about which era to do the blood magicks in.I like Early. It has some great blood magic in Mictlan, Lanka, Berytos, and Xibalba. That said, you can browse around http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/ to see which nations have good blood mages and nation-specific blood spells. To be good at blood, you need a cheap blood mage to hunt for slaves and a somewhat strong one for rituals.
Speaking of which, what are the best teams for blood magic in the era?
Ehehe. MA R'yleh is actually my favorite for that nation. Most of the power of either one, without the domkill or the aquatic casters. Much less trouble to play, imo. Certainly the least thematic of the three but I'll take gold and/or my commanders going where I tell them to over style points just about any day of the week :VYou can say it's less thematic, but I don't think it's so compared to the average for Dominions. It's just compared to the crazy mechanics it gets in other ages. And a high imperial race of conquering squids is still interesting in my opinion, and everyone loves some good mindblast spam.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 06, 2016, 02:53:54 am
flying, strenght near 20 (blood bless), Blood Vengance, like 17 Attack, Flaming Weapons, Death Weapons and a Nature Bless (which with the death bless gave them near 50 effective hp + regeneration)
and most importantly 3 different attacks (Bite, Claw, Claw) that could all apply the magic weapon effects - additionally "need not eat", Forest surival and a moral of 30.
Thankfully they never really left there capital.
Plug: Sign Up for the casual round 23 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160418.0).
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 06, 2016, 03:36:38 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 06, 2016, 03:54:41 am
Post by: Frumple on September 06, 2016, 07:26:05 am
Though with cultists, they should probably attack or something (form splinter cults, generating those stealthy preacher thing events?) when not paid instead of just leaving. Or much better, do that to provinces neighboring your nation, or perhaps just have a high chance to not be detrimental to r'yleh (instead of causing unrest or lowering dominion or whatev', it would give a small boost to PD** and possibly just flat out act as an H1 priest, with some knock-on events). That, actually, would be amazing, taking one of the yokes around their neck and turning it into a direct advantage, and I think introducing another mechanic (the other being the insanity) that no other freespawn nation has.
... honestly, having actually spent some time thinking about it, now, it feels like the cultists really have just a massive amount of potential to be spiced up. Some of it would even make interesting mechanics for other nations -- having some that react differently to disbanding due to lack of pay would be both neat and rather incredibly thematic, particularly if there was a way to induce it that didn't involve deep sixing your economy. Events and magic sites that tailor themselves to the number and type of certain units also has a hell of a lot of potential... I actually want to say there's already a little of the former, but it'd be great if there was both more and more impactful/reliably activated ones.
*Which is half the reason I love BVCs and whatnot so much, the whole "here, have a unit you still have to pay for but now doesn't even work well as chaff" thing, with starvation switching that to "but now cripples anything non-mindless in your army", due to routing considerations. It just sucks to be on the receiving end :V
**Actually... if it's possible to remove magic sites, or have another building sorta' like a castle, it could act like those sites that add new PD types to the province, preferably with some kind of stacking mechanic so the more cults you have established in a single province, the larger and weirder the adds get. With losing PD or having the cults dug out (they'd still presumably be stealth armies loitering around, or something like story events you can search for) causing the PD to reduce... or having it so they stop being extra PD if someone else has control and starts being an overt nuisance.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 06, 2016, 09:22:58 am
In round 21 we had a Mictlan with quad bless and a ton of Ozelotl. They had:
flying, strenght near 20 (blood bless), Blood Vengance, like 17 Attack, Flaming Weapons, Death Weapons and a Nature Bless (which with the death bless gave them near 50 effective hp + regeneration)
and most importantly 3 different attacks (Bite, Claw, Claw) that could all apply the magic weapon effects - additionally "need not eat", Forest surival and a moral of 30.
Thankfully they never really left there capital.
Plug: Sign Up for the casual round 23 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160418.0).
That was xibalba and it was me, and it was your triple-blessed boars that kept me in check. :P
I would join your casual round but I'm in two games already and not devoting much time or thinking to my current bay12 game.
Post by: Cruxador on September 06, 2016, 11:31:01 am
In round 21 we had a Mictlan with quad bless and a ton of Ozelotl. They had:Death bless does good work keeping them alive, but they probably would have been much more effective with a water bless instead; it also helps with defense, which they're kind of lacking in (unlike D, it does nothing against (most) evocations, but Blood Vengeance and the nature bless have that pretty well covered) and a water bless would bring them up to 4.5 attacks per round, each one benefiting from that strength and the fire bless. Those additional attacks are gonna be worth more than the death weapon effect in pretty much every case.
flying, strenght near 20 (blood bless), Blood Vengance, like 17 Attack, Flaming Weapons, Death Weapons and a Nature Bless (which with the death bless gave them near 50 effective hp + regeneration)
and most importantly 3 different attacks (Bite, Claw, Claw) that could all apply the magic weapon effects - additionally "need not eat", Forest surival and a moral of 30.
Thankfully they never really left there capital.
What prevented them from leaving their capital area after getting the ozelotls? It seems about right for a mid-game rush, and if the player got to Ozelotls I would think they're pretty competent. Or did they only get that far due to being ignored?
it was your triple-blessed boars that kept me in check. :PHow does this even happen?
Post by: chaoticag on September 06, 2016, 04:26:03 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 06, 2016, 04:39:41 pm
Also tried a D9/N9/E4 bless for Marignon, just for shits and giggles. Tripling the hitpoints of the flagellantswarm is pretty funny, as is watching them just regenerate arrow wounds and then go bash cavalry with lots and lots of death weapon attacks.
Hugely effective? Ehhh... I've seen better. But is it entertaining? Damn straight it is.
Post by: Micro102 on September 06, 2016, 04:44:24 pm
Post by: chaoticag on September 06, 2016, 04:59:06 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 06, 2016, 05:02:29 pm
B9 bless is great fun for those few pretenders who start every combat with expendable sacreds. Since they're fighting alongside the pretender, they get auto-buffed, and they're completely free and thus completely expendable, hehe.
Post by: Frumple on September 06, 2016, 05:03:28 pm
'Course the second you go up against someone able to cast antimagic or somethin' the game is done, heh. And yeah, using a disposable mage to wipe the battlefield works just fine, though to be fair a DN major does make that harder to do. Not sure how well poison works if they're running a major N bless, though.
Flagellants are one of those early game expansion things more than anything, iirc. Use 'em for the cheap rush and then transition to the sacreds worth a damn as the game goes on. You generally try to sync their bless with the other sacreds a bit more because of that... water instead of death for the MA ones 'cause calvary with major water going are nightmares, stuff like that. W9N9E4 is pretty decent almost regardless of the nation, really. Less attrition/tougher units, the earth minor everyone wants, and what's arguably the best general purpose combat bless in the game. Hard to really go wrong with it if your can handle the cost scale wise.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 06, 2016, 05:42:08 pm
it was your triple-blessed boars that kept me in check. :PHow does this even happen?
It was horrible, just starve-city. The Boars where midly effective, but mostly I had 100x 50 hp (+undying+regeneration) Blood Vengance Sacreds /per turn.
They didn't do much, since they have among the lowest MR of any unit in the game and I took far to long to get anywhere - plus of course I was next to a dom-kill-nation.
I would've been very hard to siege, since they have a ton of strenght, build up massivly and are decent as defenders...
Post by: Kagus on September 08, 2016, 09:53:49 am
It's also something I feel is rather drastically affected by how the game is set up... Unless I'm missing something, in games with rare special events the misfortune nations will have an advantage, while games with common events will favor the lucky. Unless there's something so that the "rare" events are counterbalanced by being a bit more severe in either one way or the other, but I somehow doubt that's the case.
It is of course dependent on what nation you're bringing in, as some nations pretty much just demand turmoil scales with all sorts of special goodies... But what about nations that don't have a particular swing one way or the other? Would you rather take turmoil/luck for the extra chance and strength of events, or go for neutral scales to get that 15% extra income?
Post by: Shadowlord on September 08, 2016, 10:10:26 am
In round 21 we had a Mictlan with quad bless and a ton of Ozelotl. They had:Death bless does good work keeping them alive, but they probably would have been much more effective with a water bless instead; it also helps with defense, which they're kind of lacking in (unlike D, it does nothing against (most) evocations, but Blood Vengeance and the nature bless have that pretty well covered) and a water bless would bring them up to 4.5 attacks per round, each one benefiting from that strength and the fire bless. Those additional attacks are gonna be worth more than the death weapon effect in pretty much every case.
flying, strenght near 20 (blood bless), Blood Vengance, like 17 Attack, Flaming Weapons, Death Weapons and a Nature Bless (which with the death bless gave them near 50 effective hp + regeneration)
and most importantly 3 different attacks (Bite, Claw, Claw) that could all apply the magic weapon effects - additionally "need not eat", Forest surival and a moral of 30.
Thankfully they never really left there capital.
What prevented them from leaving their capital area after getting the ozelotls? It seems about right for a mid-game rush, and if the player got to Ozelotls I would think they're pretty competent. Or did they only get that far due to being ignored?it was your triple-blessed boars that kept me in check. :PHow does this even happen?
I did leave my capital, and what happened was that I was surrounded by the boars, Agartha, and vans iirc. I invaded the vans and got backstabbed by the boars, so had to shelve expansion plans to defend my lands.
Post by: E. Albright on September 08, 2016, 10:59:16 am
This only applies if you're leaning scales over bless, ofc. If points are at a premium, you take what you can afford, though I still don't like taking Turmoil.
Post by: Frumple on September 08, 2016, 11:10:35 am
Turmoil is generally the last scale I'll dump, and I take misfortune precisely never. Not even for a multibless. Everything is permissible except bloody misfortune. I'll take luck 0 but that's as far down as it goes. Far as I'm concerned that scale only has four options and none of them give you extra points.
Post by: E. Albright on September 08, 2016, 11:46:58 am
I rarely if ever play with rare events, so I suppose that could change things, but it's hard to imagine it would do enough.
Post by: Kagus on September 08, 2016, 11:50:20 am
As far as strengths are concerned, don't underestimate chaos strength... It can make a pretty damn big difference, all depending on what's being affected. At max turmoil that's +3 strength, attack and defense for most folks, and levels of order will of course reduce those stats by a similar amount.
It's PARTICULARLY noteworthy with units like the ko-oni, since they're comparitively cheap and having a square full of size-1 units with +3 to everything is pretty gnarly.
EDIT: Nevermind the comment about order vs. turmoil, apparently the game uses the most arcane system of tags and values because apparently magic, turmoil and whatnot can have values from -2 to +3, but their opposing scale is a completely different string altogether. Hurr.
Post by: Micro102 on September 08, 2016, 04:22:40 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on September 08, 2016, 04:47:50 pm
Post by: chaoticag on September 08, 2016, 04:59:16 pm
Why can't you just take 3 luck alongside 3 turmoil and get a bunch of good events?It's generally the only way that domkill nations make any money. The main thing about turmoil plus luck is it can make getting your hands on gems at least a smidge easier for thigns that your nation does not normally dabble in, in case you need a spell here or there. The sheer amount of things you can do with gold though is too much to pass up on, so most people opt for order.
Post by: Frumple on September 08, 2016, 05:19:07 pm
You can do that. Taking turmoil scales does unlock some bad events, which dilutes the pool of random events you want to aim for by getting lots of random events, but it's not incredibly terrible in my experience.You can try that. It's a theory oft tested on the domkill nations (that aren't r'yleh). I've actually done it quite a lot both in Dom 3 and 4, which is why I've stopped :V
You can still play through it with usually (usually) not much trouble, but mostly it's just notably likely to be freakishly annoying. Invasions every other turn, all sorts of irritants popping up in your message log, etc., etc., etc. Particularly with the changes in Dom 4 to PD, I very much don't think it's worth it, especially for the non-r'yleh domkill nations -- tank everything but order, luck, and magic, basically (and/or growth, for asphodel), otherwise you're going to be spending half your time reconquering provinces in your backline with your freespawn (or just leaving chunks there, which is bad enough) instead of sending them to the front to do something useful. It's playable, but I don't really find it fun to play anymore.
Turmoil two (or maybe one, depending on how bad the T2 unlocked stuff is... I had remembered most of the major problems being T3, but it's definitely possibly I was misremembering) is about as low as I'd recommend, and even then... if you're doing it, you're doing it for gems and magic items, not gold. Luck 3 and Order 1+ will net you significantly more cash if you're going high luck primarily for that, even with the reduced events and playing a popkill nation. The order positive events can be hella' sexy -- free castles, gigantic lumps of dosh (iirc the largest single gold event is order locked, somewhere in the range of 3k in one go), that sort of junk.
Post by: Kagus on September 08, 2016, 05:57:14 pm
Order also opens up a lot of weird stuff like the mass exodus events, noble claim invasions, Robin Hood etc., but all in all does have a lot more cash-boosting events. Turmoil is more magic gems, sites and random special allies.
Might have to rethink a lot of my pretender dominions because of this. I still don't know what -2 order is or -2 turmoil, but I'm sure there's some reason for those values to exist...
Also I'm always s'damned points-greedy when making pretenders.
EDIT: Oh god... There's an "It Came From the Desert" reference.
Post by: Cruxador on September 08, 2016, 06:50:44 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 08, 2016, 07:25:22 pm
Probably doesn't get under some folks' skin as much as it does mine, but I'd actually rather take turmoil as a nation without popkill than the ones that have it, these days. Much less trouble in the long run.
*E: Though with sudden retrospect, I can see how that might be an intentional bit of design, and a rather cunning one. A sort of subtle poke to domkill nations for unilaterally tanking their scales without considering anything except the pretender points, that's even sneakier by not coming into its full effect until a few dozen turns in, so that folks just dipping their toes in to test stuff won't notice. If illwinter actually meant to do that, I have to say I'm kinda impressed. Impressed and hateful :V
Post by: E. Albright on September 08, 2016, 08:04:20 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 08, 2016, 08:38:18 pm
Most of Turmoil's invasion events are unlocked with Turm 1, so even just one tic on the scale will open up those chances, while Turmoil 2 actually unlocks a lot of rather beneficial events. Also remember that there are invasion events that don't care what your Order/Turmoil alignment is at all.
EDIT: Great, just great... Looking at all these different events and their conditions, now I gotta go through and re-do damn near all my pretender designs thanks to how this works out. Yippee.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 08, 2016, 10:50:38 pm
EDIT: Great, just great... Looking at all these different events and their conditions, now I gotta go through and re-do damn near all my pretender designs thanks to how this works out. Yippee.
(http://www.financialsense.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/desktop/users/u3124/images/2015/1015/03-INVISIBLE3.JPG)
Post by: Frumple on September 08, 2016, 10:56:51 pm
Though I coulda' sworn T3 opened up some new stuff. Maybe it was back in D3? Eh. Still, if all it takes is turmoil 1, no longer will I be taking T1 :V
Kinda' wish someone would do a proper breakdown of the events, though. There's lists, but no "This is how many events scale X brings in" sort of thing. Nice summary of however many number of the different sorts (gold, gems, items, invasions, units, etc.) of events come in at what points would be a helluva handy reference. Also be neat to see if there's a sort of optimal event setup, where you maximize the number of potential good events and minimize the number of poor ones... trim the pool to be in your favor, basically.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 08, 2016, 11:16:38 pm
Also be neat to see if there's a sort of optimal event setup, where you maximize the number of potential good events and minimize the number of poor ones... trim the pool to be in your favor, basically.No. Please no.
If there's one thing I hate in fun, broad multiplayer games like this, it's optimizing builds. What is the point of having variety of choices, if people start gravitating towards something known to be objectively better?
Post by: Frumple on September 08, 2016, 11:32:48 pm
Regardless, the point is knowing what it is. Low information environment just makes your variety of choices equally worthless, rather than things you made with deliberation and understanding. And if people are gravitating towards an objectively better design that just means you know what they're doing and can respond accordingly :P
Post by: Kagus on September 08, 2016, 11:43:10 pm
The main appeal of Turmoil-Luck is that it's point neutral. If you're in a position to leverage the potential gains against the persistent loss of income, you get an advantage without having to put any more points into it. And of course, in the case of popkill nations, you're not going to be getting much income out of the provinces for very long anyways. And if you're going to take Turmoil, you'll definitely want to take luck specifically because it's tailored to play off of it, not only because of stacking event chances and opening up new good events, but also because a luck scale will make the bad Turmoil events far less likely to occur.
Then again, I'm someone who pretty much NEVER takes death scales unless I'm already dealing with popkill, and certainly never combine Death with positive scales like Luck or Productivity, simply because I can't wrap my head around everyone just heading towards annihilation and the irrelevance of those positive scales, however slowly that happens.
Post by: Grek on September 09, 2016, 05:51:07 am
Post by: chaoticag on September 09, 2016, 06:00:50 am
No. Please no.The problem with this is, well, we have a lot of players who are ready to open pandora's box so to speak, and we can't put the horrors back in should anyone choose to do so. That being said, I don't think optimizing for events is a game winner. Dominions is very much not a one size fits all strategy, and even the best of scales mean nothing if they're funneled into the worst or the most ill suited troops and mages.
If there's one thing I hate in fun, broad multiplayer games like this, it's optimizing builds. What is the point of having variety of choices, if people start gravitating towards something known to be objectively better?
Misfortune 3 with Death 3 is actually a really useful combo for Therodos. You have national air mages, a national air income and an endless hunger for death gems. Hello, Raven Feast!Kinda. Therodos also has some of the best heroes, so there's a case to be made for a luck of 3. For the most part, luck is good in the sense that after a while it may be your only real source of income alongside permanent gold sites if you hit an expansion wall.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 09, 2016, 09:23:15 am
So I wanted to test around a lil and setup a communion with the following:
Communion Master:
Casting: Communion Master, Power of the Spheres, Light of the Northern Star, Astral shield, Cast Spells
A huge amount of Slaves:
Casting:
Communion Slave, Hold, Hold, Hold, Astral Geyser, Cast Spells
________
It all spells cast perfectly until round 5 (Slaves have 30 fatigue max at this point) - and astral skill of 3 or more, each. - But they don't cast the Astral Geyser, which would only cost 20 fatigue to cast.
For the next 10-15 turns they don't cast anything and eventually die, even with astral shield on all of them.
Sadness : I
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 09, 2016, 09:30:36 am
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 09, 2016, 09:45:36 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 09, 2016, 09:49:51 am
So, the bonuses you get from 4+ magics only apply to blessed troops, and the only troops that can be blessed are sacred troops?
Kinda yes, except there is sacred shroud artifact, which makes commander with it sacred and always blessed.
Post by: Kagus on September 09, 2016, 10:35:10 am
Sadness : I
As Il Palazzo said, communion/sabbath slaves do not cast spells. This was changed because of the dickery of "reverse communions", which did pretty much exactly what you were testing with.
Post by: Micro102 on September 09, 2016, 11:04:46 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 09, 2016, 11:40:40 am
As Il Palazzo said, communion/sabbath slaves do not cast spells. This was changed because of the dickery of "reverse communions", which did pretty much exactly what you were testing with.
Whoops. I'm thinking about something very similar here. Never mind, you are entirely correct. Though it should be noted that reverse communions only worked if the slaves got to act before any masters in combat, because Dominions is a thing. As such you had to keep a close eye on unit IDs which determined which units got to act before others (and were, because Dominions, almost completely hidden). The Devs changed this behaviour in 4 because it went against their ideas of how a communion should work. Which is understandable, if sad since it prevents a lot of these shenanigans from occurring. Though if Soul Vortex is a buff that transfers to communion slaves, you could try to replicate some of the above. Big, beefy dudes that suck up fatigue and health from people around them don't mind being stunned. Probably not worth the time and effort involved though.
Post by: Frumple on September 09, 2016, 12:21:24 pm
It... usually isn't worth it.
Though I want to say there's also something with getting the master to rout off the map? Probably misremembering.
Post by: Kagus on September 09, 2016, 12:25:56 pm
And yeah, having a bunch of slaves casting big spells and then having a master do something like blood's reinvigoration to wipe all their fatigue away was pretty... Fun. With a capital F U.
I think that might've been back when Quickness let you cast twice during a round, but that might have been a different era. Ahh, the shenanigans people come up with...
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 09, 2016, 12:42:36 pm
Yeah, basically the one way to still pull off a reverse communion is have the master load down with various buff spells particularly chosen to make it so everything that attacks the slaves die before the slaves do.I always wanted to try a communion with phoenix pyre. I wonder if it'd work.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 09, 2016, 01:41:40 pm
Clams of pearls help, too, since they can allow casters to self-buff without needing to burn real pearls in every battle.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 09, 2016, 01:46:46 pm
I'm playing marignon in a game and haven't bothered with communions because it's easier to just have one dude cast light of the northern star, and still have all the mages available to spam stuff.Tangentially related, I don't know what update added the feature, but now if an item says it casts or affects the wearer with a spell, you can right-click the spell name for its description. I found out when I randomly got a shield that casts Power of the Spheres at the start of battle.
Clams of pearls help, too, since they can allow casters to self-buff without needing to burn real pearls in every battle.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 09, 2016, 01:48:07 pm
I'm playing marignon in a game and haven't bothered with communions because it's easier to just have one dude cast light of the northern star, and still have all the mages available to spam stuff.
Clams of pearls help, too, since they can allow casters to self-buff without needing to burn real pearls in every battle.
In that situation I might still use a small communion to cast some bigger spells. 1 or 2 masters-4 slaves kind of stuff. No spells spring to mind now but I'm sure there's some. But for massed stellar cascades spam or such I would definitely go with masses of S2's just for their immediate effect. Basically I view communions as fragile, rickety contraptions that might have a huge payoff. Not something I like to rely on in huge numbers.
Post by: PrimusRibbus on September 09, 2016, 02:29:05 pm
Yeah, basically the one way to still pull off a reverse communion is have the master load down with various buff spells particularly chosen to make it so everything that attacks the slaves die before the slaves do.I always wanted to try a communion with phoenix pyre. I wonder if it'd work.
It does work. When I was playing LA Ulm I had a stray arrow hit an Illuminated One that was part of a 25 mage communion and blow up my entire army in a chain reaction.
Post by: Kagus on September 09, 2016, 02:30:38 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 09, 2016, 02:34:40 pm
Having an optimal event setup isn't necessarily better. First of all, it's likely to cost a lot of build points. If it doesn't, and isn't something obvious like "max scales" then that would be a useful tool for the gents at Illwinter (or modders) to add some more events of certain kinds to remedy the balance a bit. However, even when used for competitive play, optimizing one thing doesn't actually mean you're better. Like, it wasn't that long ago in this thread that we were talking about optimizing your bless. You get maximum bless on Mictlan and... it kinda sucks. Because the tradeoff is too much. Maximizing your event scales is likely to be the same: Too much cost for too little benefit, so not likely to be advisable in the majority of cases.Also be neat to see if there's a sort of optimal event setup, where you maximize the number of potential good events and minimize the number of poor ones... trim the pool to be in your favor, basically.No. Please no.
If there's one thing I hate in fun, broad multiplayer games like this, it's optimizing builds. What is the point of having variety of choices, if people start gravitating towards something known to be objectively better?
That sounds amazing. Wish you could save battle replays for later viewing.You can, just keep the turn file handy.
Post by: E. Albright on September 09, 2016, 04:16:37 pm
Though I want to say there's also something with getting the master to rout off the map? Probably misremembering.
Nope, you're not. If all the masters flee,rout, or die, the slaves are free to cast spells at their leisure. However, their leisure is quite leisurely, particularly since the final master to leave gives them a lovely parting gift of five or ten or I-can't-recall-how-many turns of paralysis...
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 09, 2016, 05:46:13 pm
Post by: Micro102 on September 09, 2016, 05:48:47 pm
I've just teleported an E3 mage with 5 earth gems to cast Earthquake on an unsuspecting army, but he didn't. Any idea why?
I've found that for some reason lots of mages don't follow the orders you give them. It's really annoying.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 09, 2016, 05:59:42 pm
I've just teleported an E3 mage with 5 earth gems to cast Earthquake on an unsuspecting army, but he didn't. Any idea why?
Quote from: the manual
Just like attacking in combat, casting spells in battle costs fatigue. Each spell has a listed fatigue cost which a caster incurs when casting that spell. For each skill level in the required path that the mage exceeds the minimum, he incurs 1 / (1 + (mage skill – minimum skill) of the listed spell fatigue. In other words, having an extra skill level means the mage suffers only ½ fatigue, two extra skill levels means he suffers only 1/3 as much, three extra is ¼, and so forth.
Spell casters also incur fatigue equal to their base Encumbrance value + 2x Encumbrance value of any armor worn for each spell cast. This is not subject to reduction by skill bonuses. It is harder to make magical gestures in heavy armor. Everyone knows this from armor class days.
Quote from: the manual
Mages can use magic gems in combat for two purposes: to temporarily raise their skill level, and to reduce fatigue. This represents the release of the distilled magical power of the gems themselves. Because it takes a skilled caster to keep things from getting out of control, a mage can only use as many gems as his current skill level in that path each turn.
By using a magic gem, a caster gains one skill level in that magic path. This can be used both to allow a mage to cast a spell for which he would not normally have the skill, or to reduce the fatigue of a spell, or both. However, a mage may never increase his skill level by more than one by using gems, or gain skill in a path in which he or she did not already have at least one skill level.
That would be why.
Edit: The only things I'm not clear on is why he didn't power himself up a level for Curse of Stones (conservative casting?), and why he didn't kill himself casting it. It's an earth-3 3-gem 300 fatigue spell, and he burned 3 gems and had 200 fatigue after, and the same amount of HP as he had before he cast it.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 09, 2016, 07:10:10 pm
That would be why.But that's just it. He should have been be able to use the extra gems to boost himself to E4 and cast Earthquake normally.
Post by: Kagus on September 09, 2016, 07:16:37 pm
So one gem gets used to boost to 4E, then he'd need at least 3 more gems to just cast the spell. But since he's base 3E, he can't use more than 3 gems a turn.
Post by: E. Albright on September 09, 2016, 07:18:27 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 09, 2016, 07:25:27 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 09, 2016, 07:28:54 pm
Edit: The only things I'm not clear on is why he didn't power himself up a level for Curse of Stones (conservative casting?), and why he didn't kill himself casting it. It's an earth-3 3-gem 300 fatigue spell, and he burned 3 gems and had 200 fatigue after, and the same amount of HP as he had before he cast it.As far as I understand it, a caster can never kill himself by casting a spell, no matter how fatiguing - it's only if he incurs additional fatigue over 200 afterwards, that he takes damage.
Post by: Kagus on September 09, 2016, 07:52:10 pm
Very entertaining test, I must say. Was also interesting to see that while he did get marked by the horrors attacking him, when combat was over he was no longer marked. Next I'll have to try doing a suicide communion using hellpower.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 09, 2016, 08:29:30 pm
Edit: The only things I'm not clear on is why he didn't power himself up a level for Curse of Stones (conservative casting?), and why he didn't kill himself casting it. It's an earth-3 3-gem 300 fatigue spell, and he burned 3 gems and had 200 fatigue after, and the same amount of HP as he had before he cast it.As far as I understand it, a caster can never kill himself by casting a spell, no matter how fatiguing - it's only if he incurs additional fatigue over 200 afterwards, that he takes damage.
Aha. And I guess the AI must not cast earth power on its own, and couldn't have used an extra gem on curse of stones anyways.
Post by: E. Albright on September 09, 2016, 09:56:48 pm
Very entertaining test, I must say. Was also interesting to see that while he did get marked by the horrors attacking him, when combat was over he was no longer marked. Next I'll have to try doing a suicide communion using hellpower.
Bonus points if you use Golems as your communicants.
Post by: Grek on September 10, 2016, 08:11:19 am
Play an awake Hooded Spirit with A2W2E9D9N2, Dominion 10, all scales set to -3. Spend 7 turns researching Alteration, then have the Spirit forge itself some Black Plate. Script it to cast Mistform and attack rear. It can move 10 provinces a turn and kill most independents, even throne guardians. Unless you get unlucky or the other players catch on, you win in 7+2n turns, where n is the number of thrones in play.
Post by: E. Albright on September 10, 2016, 09:15:19 am
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2016, 09:19:25 am
First throne had a squad of phantasmal warriors (no morale, magical weapons that disrupt mistform) and a skellyspammer. Somehow managed to survive and win, but not without getting a chest wound for even more fatigue than he was already picking up (which was a lot)
Second throne was just a bunch of bone tribe, which meant berserkers and the head hunter chiefs with magical skull clubs. Spirit got muted, then retreated into enemy territory.
It's, ah... Not that great.
EDIT: Just tried out something similar with the great siddha, similar concept but the siddha has built-in awe +3 and blinking (so he can actually attack the rear directly instead of shuffling along the sides) but no etherealness. First throne was a bunch of skeletal horseman, siddha died on the first turn of contact.
There's some potential there, but, ah... Yeah. Definitely not foolproof.
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2016, 10:14:08 am
... why are the scales being tanked so hard, anyway? There didn't seem to be anything in that setup that actually required E9 or D9, and at the very least if someone's bumping it for research points the death pickup makes zero sense. I'm actually getting more confused the more I try to figure it out :-\
Don't take death at all and there's a full two scales back in the bank. Don't take death nine and that's... more scales. Even if you still take N or W up to compensate for the RP loss. Similarly if black plate's all you're forging E9 is way excessive... same for the dominion. If you're planning on ending the game in 7+2n turns or flaming out, there's no real point in taking more than maybe dom six or seven, at most.
E: Though looking at it a bit, the real trick here would be to use that as a disciple, with a multibless god. Everything you had before plus bless, and if you do it as fast as you should be the HP concerns don't happen.
E2: Could even make sure it's a god nation (or another disciple, or both) that has easy access to the forging you need to do, plus probably some research boosters. Then they can do the item forging and funnel RP/gold into you to speed up the research.
E3: Oooh, the dom 10 is for the awe. Forgot about that. No wonder it's such a crapshoot :V Awe's nice but a fair number of things just outright ignore it, and some of said things very much like to sit on top of thrones. Dom 9 should still work for that anyway, iirc... more points you can put in something more useful for the goal at hand.
E4: Though @Kag, if you're going that route, the spenta mainyu would probably be better... also a teleporter, also ethereal, but built in awe 5, and some pretty decent combat stats to boot (double the siddha's health, among other things). No stealth, though, but that really shouldn't be a problem... if you're intending to step on throne provinces and can't do it to indies you might as well not try :P
Bit expensive, though. You can still nab the E and A required for mistform and black plate without much issue even as a disciple, though. Could also consider something like a solar disc... not a teleporter, but mapmove 5 and a pretty nasty combatant. Can't wear the plate, but eh.
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2016, 11:15:03 am
The high earth is because E skill gives you one point of protection for every level you have in that path, and I think that even stacks on top of armor.
Also while the solar disc does have gorgeous fire shield, it's really really squishy... Low HP, no protection, no awe/ethereal/invuln/anything. The fireshield is pretty much the only thing it's got going for it, and projectiles can be a big problem.
Does the gorgon petrification work on undead/illusions? If so, that'd be pretty great, although the gorgon's pretty squishy too.
EDIT: Heh, on a related subject, I've actually used a freak lord as an expansion rainbow pretender a couple times. It's pretty funny.
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2016, 11:32:51 am
It definitely works on undead, heh. One of the reasons it takes a number of VotD casts before you can dogpile a gorgon (or something with the aegis) with spirits long enough the turn limit kills it. Also one of the reasons VotD's so effective against 'er -- the petrify kills whole hosts of the spirits every time the spell gets through, usually about doubling the amount that attacks with each successive cast.
And yeah, I don't think I was even aware about the fear thing. Still not something I'd rely on for throne stomping, though. Awe and fear both generally have the same problems, and those problems as mentioned like to show up on thrones. Though the earth prot does stack, yes. Still... I'unno. Protection's there but if you're not fatigue neutral you might as well not bother if you're going to try to solo armies with it. You'll last a bit longer but you'll still die, most likely sooner than later.
If you get lucky with thrones it could be possible, but if there's enough ones with mindless or 'zerking enemies to keep you from getting a throne win you're probably SOL.
E: ... honestly, thinking on it a little, the more reliable thing with this strategy would probably be to just attack the enemy capitals. Drop the pretender on top of one and then dig your way to their capital with troops, rinse and repeat. Thrones would be able to kill that thing a lot sooner than most nations would be.
E2: Though now I'm wondering if there's some kind of KKV strategy possible. Instead of a hooded spirit, take a monolith and literally teleport them (or wind trapeze or something) on top of the thrones. Make sure you have fire shield or something and then call it a day :V
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2016, 12:02:33 pm
Also don't really like mistform for this strategy, since you can lose it to all sorts of things. Sure, it's damn handy for as long as it works, but when it stops working... Eh.
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2016, 12:15:00 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 10, 2016, 12:27:14 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2016, 02:10:37 pm
Enchant 3 gets you fire shield and personal regen, which is neat. Still not enough to reliably stomp thrones though (I keep running into these wizard clans with their massive elemental spam), but definitely good fun.
Post by: Micro102 on September 10, 2016, 04:42:18 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2016, 05:05:14 pm
So, basically, it's good for large, heavily armored opponents who have a reasonable number of eyes and are not blindfighters. An anti-thug/SC weapon.
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2016, 05:37:11 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 10, 2016, 07:51:00 pm
Post by: Grek on September 10, 2016, 08:03:50 pm
If you get lucky with thrones it could be possible, but if there's enough ones with mindless or 'zerking enemies to keep you from getting a throne win you're probably SOL.Well the beauty of it is, even if your pretender dies trying this, you still grab a couple Thrones really really early and can put your early forts there instead of in conquered territory. It's not even about getting all the Thrones before anyone can do anything about it so much as grabbing a really early lead on Thrones.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 10, 2016, 08:25:40 pm
An early lead on thrones isn't going to do much if you can't capitalise on it. It just makes you the obvious target with no way of fending off your enemies.
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2016, 08:26:50 pm
Even if you do get an early lead in thrones, you're not going to be able to hold those provinces against much of anything. You'll have -50% income and all sorts of bullshit events that will quite happily launch massive invasions of the provinces, cause you to lose whatever savings you had managed to build up in the first place, or simply erase part of the PD.
Really, what you're most likely to do in this scenario is soften up the provinces for when someone with non-tanked scales arrives to clean up.
EDIT: And then USEC commented. Yeh.
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2016, 08:27:53 pm
Well the beauty of it is, even if your pretender dies trying this, you still grab a couple Thrones really really early and can put your early forts there instead of in conquered territory. It's not even about getting all the Thrones before anyone can do anything about it so much as grabbing a really early lead on Thrones.I mean. You could? But you've wrecked your scales to nothing. Even if you somehow manage to fortify the areas around the thrones (easier said than done, since you're not going to have gold and building the forts is going to take a good few extra turns regardless, giving your opponents time to react) the chances of you being able to keep your (shortly-a-wasteland) capital and the surrounding area is... low. You either get a throne win within the first 15-20 turns or you lose. Early thrones are just going to mean your scales kill you slower, unless you do some serious trimming on those magic paths and bring the scales up to something non-suicidal.
Though good luck taking much advantage of any gem income the thrones give you with that drain 3 misfortune 3, ahaha.
And now I've been ninja'd but let's throw another voice in the pile :V
E: Though maybe conceptually with one of the blood sac nations if any have access to an appropriate pretender? Doing the mictlan thing and keeping your poisonous domain away from whatever provinces you're using to keep you alive. Think thrones still spread blood sac nation dominion, though, so that might not actually help much.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 10, 2016, 08:31:27 pm
An early lead on thrones isn't going to do much if you can't capitalise on it. It just makes you the obvious target with no way of fending off your enemies.
This is exactly what I was thinking as well.
Which, again, is a hell of a crapshoot considering that none of the test builds mentioned have managed to reliably take all throne types, even of just the level 1 variety. And if you're tanking all of your scales to do this, including the frankly terrifying misfortune+drain combination, then you'd damn well better have a good reason for it.
Even if you do get an early lead in thrones, you're not going to be able to hold those provinces against much of anything. You'll have -50% income and all sorts of bullshit events that will quite happily launch massive invasions of the provinces, cause you to lose whatever savings you had managed to build up in the first place, or simply erase part of the PD.
Really, what you're most likely to do in this scenario is soften up the provinces for when someone with non-tanked scales arrives to clean up.
EDIT: And then USEC commented. Yeh.
From personal experience, if you had a ridiculous bless and strong sacreds then invasions aren't that big a deal - if your territory was contiguous. However, these builds don't have ridiculous blesses, and they wouldn't have contiguous territories either if you're just skipping your pretender across the map to take thrones until he dies.
RE blood sac: In one game I dom-killed everyone as ea xibalba with blood sac. I was blood sac'ing in practically all of my non-border territories. It was a large map with a low (5) number of players, though, and easy research. Also my scales were good, not terrible, in that game, since I used vampire lords and then demons instead of sacreds, but it took longer to get the research etc for them, even with easy research. (And EA Xibalba's borders can expand without blood sac, so it's basically bonus)
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2016, 08:40:12 pm
E: In other news, I just started up a game with everything except magic -3. Late winter of the first year, one of my provinces gets hit with a barbarian invasion consisting of a chief, a lord... and 109 barbarians. Yeah, that province didn't make it :V
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2016, 09:04:58 pm
Heck, the Hun Came build I was messing around with had some fun viability, thanks to picking up D9N9E4 on the pretender for various purposes, and jaguars being perfectly happy with that kind of bless.
Fun times: As Hinnom, trade for a jade knife from Mictlan. Give it to a Melqart and sacrifice 5-6 girls a month for the greater glory!
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2016, 09:25:51 pm
I guess it sorta' makes maybe sense considering it was being carried by a hydromancer, but...
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2016, 09:29:52 pm
It's always great fun whenever you run across spellcasters with either ludicrously heavy armor or some sort of berserkeritis item.
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2016, 09:43:07 pm
Also, minor tip to all folks trying lemuria that didn't notice it already: The shadows you call underwater are marginally stronger than the ones you call on land, and still fully amphibious, even the triton ones. Can't remember if ermor or theo-whatever have similar tricks going on, though I want to say you can see something along those lines if you're in a province with native monkey population or stuff along those lines. Getting different skeletons from reanimation and whatnot, most of which are more powerful (if only by small degrees) than your baseline longdead/shadow/whatever.
But basically, if possible, you want all your spare freespawn tribunes calling shadows underwater if they don't have anything better to do at the moment. It's mostly fairly small (tritons get +8 AP, atlantians get +1 HP... and they both get floating, which can actually be a pretty major thing in certain cases), but it's a nice little boost.
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2016, 11:01:52 pm
And yeah, several nations have pop-specific longdead/soulless variants; perhaps most notably the giant nations like Ashdod or Jotunheim. Although, I thought this was a nation-specific thing, not a provincial one.
Monkey nations are a bit hit-and-miss... You might get a big fat undead bandar ready to wreck stuff, or you get a skeletal markata... With all of 3 hitpoints, 7 MR and no armor or equipment. Caelian nations also have special undead, but they're generally just "flying units that can't fly", so they're bigger but just as weak as anything else.
Any sort of reanimation in Jotunheim is always good fun, lots of dead giants coming back to be horrifying.
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2016, 11:43:44 pm
Still, the lemurian spirit calling (for shadows specifically, anyway) definitely changes based on water/underwater, and the latter results are strictly better. Presumably if any other nation gets a hold of the effect (apostasy or enslave or somethin', I'unno), it'd be the same. Just a good thing to remember, particularly if it's actually a unique effect.
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2016, 07:24:25 am
And if you're tanking all of your scales to do this, including the frankly terrifying misfortune+drain combination, then you'd damn well better have a good reason for it.
To be frank, I think Death3 + Misfortune3 on a non-domkill nation scares me more, regardless of the bad rep attached to Drain3.
Yeah, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's possible to get unusual longdead with generic (scelarian or something) reanimators if they're in a proper province.
Longdead, soulless, and ghouls are nation-specific, not poptype specific. I'm actually very surprised to hear Lemuria gets any change underwater for their spectral reanimations, but those are an entirely different command than the corporeal reanimations.
[Edit: as a sanity check, I did a debug game with BL and Ermor. Ermor reanimated longdead legions in monkey provinces and UW; BL reanimated monkeys everywhere, to include UW.]
Post by: Frumple on September 11, 2016, 07:57:46 am
And yeah, I can only guess the call shadows in particular is some kind of generic command rather than nation specific, which is why it changes in UW provinces. Kinda' neat, though... almost like it's a pseudo-callback to theowhatsit. Though that would have been a retcon of some sort, heh, as the behavior's been there longer than t-etc. has been.
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2016, 08:05:12 am
Post by: Frumple on September 11, 2016, 08:13:12 am
Post by: Kagus on September 11, 2016, 01:52:20 pm
Just in the process of mopping up a 1-on-1 that's been pretty much one-sided in my favor, and I've just broken down the gates of Mictlan's capital and have stormed the keep. Therein I see the mighty god of Mictlan, who is...
Uh... A great sage. An awake great sage with F6A4W1E3S9D5N1B6. Now, not gonna lie, 92 research points is indeed pretty sexy... But I'm not sure how much that's actually, y'know, helped them. They've got pretty nasty scales, but I have no idea just how many points they actually needed in order to pull that off.
Was just trying to do a Helhirding bless to see what all the fuss was about. Been working out reasonably well so far.
Post by: Frumple on September 11, 2016, 02:17:57 pm
But the answer to your question is, without adjusting anything else and assuming they've done no empowering or anything, that path layout would put a mictlan great sage at -512. So 622 points total.
... looks like you'd have to take 13 hits of negative scales to afford that with an awake one. You'd have enough left over to put one pip in your dominion, bringing it up to... two.
Post by: Kagus on September 11, 2016, 02:29:56 pm
Honestly kind of surprised how he managed to do as much as he did... Was a truckload of vinemen and gelatinous cubes in the main army. But, even so, nothing they could throw at me was enough to take down a bunch of W9E9 Helhirds and an incomprehensible spam of corpse constructs. And my scales were kinda shitty too.
Also, I apparently have no idea how movement works... I thought if you threw a raiding spell at an enemy army, it would cancel their move orders for that turn. Clearly that's not the case, as I sent a flock of hawks at a roaming enemy force and then when my actual troops arrived, they'd already skedaddled and attacked another one of my provinces.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 14, 2016, 09:31:26 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Micro102 on September 14, 2016, 09:50:22 am
Post by: Frumple on September 14, 2016, 10:04:43 am
Everything depends on where the province is, what you expect to happen to it, and available resources. I do tend to prefer around 5-10 as a baseline, cash allowing, though. Enough to fend off bird attacks and the occasional small invasion event, that sort of thing. Think it's actually something like 6-11 'cause somewhere in there's the breakpoints for scout reports, but in that range.
... at least versus humans. Against AI I usually end up with one or more provinces with 100 PD, ahaha.
Post by: Kagus on September 14, 2016, 10:54:36 am
1 is definitely the minimum, but popping it up to 4 costs just 10 gold and will prevent that event from happening, even if the resulting bandit horde could potentially have knocked over the PD. Furthermore, things like heavy cav provinces will get their first cavalryman PD at about 4 points, which can help out in certain situations.
Also, eunuchs. Oh my god, eunuchs. They deserve their own goddamn shrine in the pantheon, right next to MA Man's monks.
EDIT: Lately I've been messing around with LA R'lyeh, and I've gotten to thinking about some things... Personally, I think the nation could do with pretty much a full-scale rework.
We see nations that enforce or at least recommend certain negative scales when playing as them. Things like Lanka or to a lesser extent Pangaea push for Turmoil scales, low-resource nations and EA Arco do well with Sloth, Ulm and Man dig Drain scales, and pretty much all the popkill nations are a death scale no-brainer (except for Asphodel, because they're a special little snowflake), not to mention several nations that can make good use of heavy temperature scales one way or the other.
...but no nation has any use for Misfortune, or anything that really counteracts just how nasty a scale dump that is.
LA R'lyeh is in effect "just another popkill nation" in its current incarnation, but with the added problem of having the freespawn require both upkeep and supplies (note: DO NOT build coastal castles as LA R'lyeh... You still get the freespawn hybrids as MA, but these cost 6-8 times as much upkeep as the regular dreamers and madmen), something that's doubly problematic not only because the population and thus income+supply base is steadily going down as your demand steadily increases, but also because death scales are kind of a necessity as their population reduction effect is a drop in the bucket compared to just your basic dominion.
What if, instead of a straight up popkill, R'lyeh's dominion tied more heavily in with Misfortune rather than Death? Random cataclysms, horror attacks, suicide cults, it all still plays into the apocalyptic situation of the dreamlands, but without just being "Oi, the stars is right, innit? Guess I'm gonna catch the void-flu and drop dead, so I will". This also opens up the possibility of taking growth scales to help offset the supply/income issues (and MAYBE even just open it up for a little bit o' the old blood magic, because I feel this Ftaghn hasn't got nearly enough human sacrifice going on). Give the freespawn insane cultists 3% fortune teller or something so you can help offset the dangers to a couple prime provinces and then basically just hold on for the ride as everything else eventually tears itself apart through the madness of the eternal void.
You still get a pretty dangerous dominion, it's still not exactly great for your pockets or your people, but I personally think it would tie in better with the insanity of the dreamlands, and also make the nation a bit more unique and stand out from the ranks of Ermor/Lemuria.
Post by: Neonivek on September 14, 2016, 11:05:47 am
Also, eunuchs. Oh my god, eunuchs. They deserve their own goddamn shrine in the pantheon, right next to MA Man's monks.
Ming knows where it is at!
Post by: AlStar on September 14, 2016, 11:10:26 am
I like to get any province with heavy cavalry up to at least 14, since that's when they get horseman number (4? 5?), and that's actually a decent enough force that it can occasionally fend off raiding parties on its own - especially if the enemy isn't expecting it.
Post by: E. Albright on September 14, 2016, 12:07:50 pm
Round 22 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159272.0) needs a sub. Unlike usual, this is not a call for a sub for someone who's bowing out 'cause they're in a bad position, but rather for the leading nation who's been beset by inconvenient three-dimensional objects.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 14, 2016, 01:46:38 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 14, 2016, 02:29:24 pm
... mind you, that usually doesn't happen if you just leave the PD by itself. You use major PD provinces to screen for mages or cav or whatev', basically treating them as a regenerating chaff blob. One that, do remember, costs no upkeep and consumes no supplies, and only really attritions if you lose the province or something... happens... to its population, if there's no fortress. Can be totally worth the investment if you have some way to force the enemy to attack the province they're in, or just if the PD sticks around long enough.
Post by: E. Albright on September 14, 2016, 03:09:15 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 14, 2016, 03:17:06 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 14, 2016, 03:29:35 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 14, 2016, 07:35:58 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 14, 2016, 08:54:20 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 15, 2016, 02:32:12 am
Post by: Shadowgandor on September 15, 2016, 03:22:02 am
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2016, 04:34:28 am
Post by: Kagus on September 15, 2016, 07:19:19 am
Also, lots of strange little things have magical weapons which bypass the etheral evasion. EA Atlantis has infantry with basalt spears, which are considered magic weapons, and there are a number of other nations with recruitable magic-weapon units.
If you have access to nature, there are also giant mantises... Strangely, the regular ol' giant mantis shares its weapon type with the horror mantis, so it's considered a magical weapon. Not a bad deal all in all, but as with most animals they've got absolutely dreadful MR.
And if you're playing as R'lyeh, any form of "drain life" attack or the meteorite tridents will pop them just as well as any other magic attack, if you wanna attack them with expensive stuff.
Post by: Shadowgandor on September 15, 2016, 07:25:57 am
I eventually left him on a throne in the middle of hostile territory where two nations were constantly sending enormous armies at him while he was in -5 dominion and he survived for nearly 30 game (not battle) turns before he was killed.
In late game when armies starts using bigger spells he falls off a bit but well, not a bad deal for 25 death gems. I did have to take negative 3 scales except luck, which was kept at 0 and a demilich with dom4 and awake. I have to experiment a bit more with it awake or not being worth it. It'll take about 6 turns before you can start producing mages otherwise, which is a huge huge amount of research time lost. You can turn your starting commander into a prophet, but he's not immortal and ethereal so as a thug, he'll be less impressive. Never tried using the 1h priest you start with as a thug, perhaps that could work due to the F9, D9 bless giving it a ton more damage and N9 bless granting it more HP while also being ethereal. Having an imprisoned pretender + misfortune 3 would allow a fourth bless. In theory, leaving a thug on all provinces should easily be doable with Lemuria and looking at the effectiveness of my first experiment, they should be more than capable of dealing with whatever nastiness pops up in a territory. I wonder what the fourth bless should be, I'm thinking W9 or E9. E9 would allow more skellie spam and general tankiness, while W9 would also increase tankiness through defence, while also allowing 1.5x more attacks and reaching the enemy earlier.
Gee I just noticed I started rambling quite a bit. Still posting it here to see what others think. Probably would work horribly in multiplayer and dom kill is a valid threat, but it seems doable.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 15, 2016, 07:31:18 am
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2016, 07:58:48 am
As for lemuria, the consuls are basically discount wrath lords that take no research, i.e. they're sodding amazing, quite possibly one of the best national summons in the game for their price and accessibility. That said, they totally don't need a triple bless to do just about everything you want them to do -- I usually go major WN, minor earth (though the latter is more for the actual casters). It's enough to take almost any indie province, and most throne ones, too, if you bring in three or four at a time. And that's all you need until you can get some research and forging going and start kitting the critters out and bringing in chaff screens and proper caster backup.
You can actually sorta' get away with taking a dormant or imprisoned pretender, since your native D income is pretty high and you can empower one of your starting units to be able to start bringing in your summons. It slows you down fairly substantially but once your consuls start rolling out there's not much indie province wise that can stop you, and you can put out one (i.e. what amounts to a new expansion army) every two or three turns, even assuming you don't find more death sites.
That said, the consuls are discount wrath lords -- they don't have the D3 that makes the lords so thuggable, and their basic weapon is utter shite. They're just about your best army leader, as well as really good thugs throughout the game and zogging incredible ones when you can first get them, but that's all they are. You can build a strategy that utilizes them heavily but if you go all in on em yer going to be right buggered -- you still need to leverage your casters and freespawn, and for all lemuria doesn't need much scale wise dropping that luck or magic is overall a pretty bad idea.
Post by: Kagus on September 15, 2016, 08:02:38 am
E9 generally isn't worth it. The +5 protection is applied as natural protection BEFORE equipment is taken into consideration, so you very rarely get the full +5. And just five points, especially in LA, really doesn't mean a whole lot. Meanwhile, all your troops and commanders are Enc 0 and will only accrue fatigue through spellcasting or some special effects. In some cases E9 is amazingly useful, but those are generally special-case scenarios.
And nothing is worth taking Misfortune 3, especially not with a bunch of other negative scales (Drain in particular). Remember that Lemuria also benefits quite a bit from forts/temples, and gold is hard to come by when you murder all your taxpayers.
Post by: Cruxador on September 16, 2016, 02:14:44 am
So how does everyone treat PD? I usually set mine to 10 as soon as I get the province, eventually cranking it up to 15, and after that to whatever my gobs of money allow me to.One, to discourage scout-capping and to see the battles. Six, if I'm flush and fear elves, since that increases the description that they see to the next tier. But pretty much never more, unless it's a very specific situation where I need more bodies fast in a defensive fight and that's the only way to do it fast enough.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 16, 2016, 04:39:55 am
In general though, static defenses are always a losing proposition compared to active actions from your own part.
Post by: Neonivek on September 16, 2016, 05:51:38 am
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 16, 2016, 09:22:10 am
Post by: Kagus on September 16, 2016, 09:53:23 am
Basically the one thing flying PD CAN do is interrupt and slaughter scouts/whatnot who are next to a friendly province and have "Retreat" scripted for when they get found out. Otherwise, not a whole lot unless they get really lucky.
I think monkey PD is still somewhat notorious, but I'm not sure if it got buffed a bit or not.
So, no comment on the dreamlands thing? I thought it could've been an interesting concept...
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 17, 2016, 03:57:45 am
Post by: Cruxador on September 17, 2016, 12:09:38 pm
R'yleh might have one of the best PDs for 1 Gold, since the Illithid Lord is such a beast with his mind-blast. Do any Giants get a real big commander?Lemuria is another strong contender for best 1pd.
Post by: E. Albright on September 17, 2016, 01:28:38 pm
EA and MA Jotunheim have sacred Jotun Herses, but they can't self-bless, so the sacred is less exciting.
EA Van/Helheim have Vanherses, which even unscripted and unequipped is still kinda hawt.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 17, 2016, 02:02:48 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 17, 2016, 02:23:31 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 17, 2016, 05:11:26 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 17, 2016, 06:48:28 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 17, 2016, 07:32:16 pm
With W9, they CANNOT BE HIT... You're looking at 23+ defense and blessed quickness on top of a free mirror image that gets a slight boost thanks to their skill in air. And if you've got E8, they're fatigue neutral except for the double-rounds.
The hersir have 2 attacks at 14 value and 12 strength (hersir also have the light lance, so they get to put those 39 movepoints {when bless-quickened} to use), so they're generally pretty competent at just smacking stuff around the old-fashioned way. The vanjarls, however, can just run around spamming leeching touch. If you're into that sort of thing, of course...
The most common thing that gets around their obscene defense values are projectiles, but, hey... All of the commander vanir can cast air shield.
And that's just the stuff they do bare-bones naked. Oh, did I mention that they all have glamour and thus are seriously stealthy, so they can form black ops squads behind enemy lines? Yeah. Also sailing and 16-17 MR.
They're fun enough when just thugging them out normally and sending them out along with the rest of the sacred stealthy cav, but considering you get one of them as the first commander in your PD... They're a really sweet deal.
I'm sure there are other, better ways of using them that I'm not privy to... But I certainly got good usage out of a water/earth bless.
All that aside, EA Helheim has brilliant corpse construct potential. You've got a dedicated A1D1 sacred caster at your home base, another mage with E2-3 for hammers and lightning rods, and plenty of air access for searching or even building storm staves, if you're into that.
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 18, 2016, 10:35:03 am
Post by: Nirur Torir on September 18, 2016, 11:01:49 am
Post by: Frumple on September 18, 2016, 11:20:16 am
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 18, 2016, 11:28:35 am
Post by: Frumple on September 18, 2016, 11:30:34 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2016, 11:44:12 am
Post by: Kagus on September 18, 2016, 04:49:41 pm
Horror marking happens sight unseen as well.
Heh, heh, heh heh... "Site" unseen.
In other news, mod manager seems to think that eunuchs don't actually have the "seduction-immune" tag. More interestingly, there's a random event where one of your eunuchs "miraculously" fathers a child...
This is some third-tier bullshit if ever there was. Wake up, sheeple.
Post by: Karlito on September 18, 2016, 05:44:58 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 18, 2016, 05:50:21 pm
I thought the seduction immune tag was just [female] (because apparently there are no lesbians in Dominions).
You can use bear claw charm masculinity bonus to seduce females with female seducers, as I know.
Post by: Frumple on September 18, 2016, 05:55:38 pm
I thought the seduction immune tag was just [female] (because apparently there are no lesbians in Dominions).Preeeetty sure it's not. It's just that female's close to it, because there aren't many male seducers. and by not many I mean there's two Easiest way to check would probably be with mari (troubadours) or LA pythium (satyr via the orgy spell).
Do want to say it's entirely het, though. And I had forgotten about the bear claw. Presumably the cat charm works the other way for any male seducers...
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 18, 2016, 05:59:08 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on September 18, 2016, 06:06:47 pm
So, what are the likely causes of EVERYONE becoming diseased?
If this happened in the game we're playing together, it might be because those troops were in a province under my dominion. My dominion (C'tis) spreads diseases.
Post by: Kagus on September 18, 2016, 06:08:30 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 18, 2016, 06:42:35 pm
I thought the seduction immune tag was just [female] (because apparently there are no lesbians in Dominions).
You can use bear claw charm masculinity bonus to seduce females with female seducers, as I know.
Wait, what?
Post by: chaoticag on September 18, 2016, 06:55:38 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 19, 2016, 08:42:11 am
Post by: Grek on September 19, 2016, 08:47:47 am
Also come up with a REALLY good pun to name your god. Seriously. Wouldn't you accept an NAP from Thy Lord Cod?
Post by: Frumple on September 19, 2016, 08:53:11 am
Maybe some vs AI games if there's something odd with the settings, too... changes to indie strength or whatev', just so you can get a feel of what you need to expand or whathaveyou.
And yeah, you can try test games but test games vs AI is... not going to tell you much about whether what you're doing is working or not. Everything else aside the AI is generally pretty terrible about scripting and army composition, which means if you're throwing armies against them to check and see how it'll work out you're probably not getting much in the way of helpful feedback. Best is you'll be able to see how you expand, more or less, or if there's any gapingly huge holes in what you intended to do.
Unless you intend to play both/all sides of the fight, I guess. Which is a thing you can do but... is a lot of work, tbh. And you're here to play a game, not run a side job :V
Post by: Micro102 on September 19, 2016, 09:10:26 am
How do you guys prep for a MP game with humans?
Read up on all the opposing nations and figure out the specific way your nation can dick over the others, then send messages to everyone about how they are the only ones you want to be allied with and give them a handful of gems so they ignore you eating your first victim :)
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 19, 2016, 09:43:06 am
During the game itself however, I do intense studys each turn.
Post by: Kagus on September 19, 2016, 10:10:48 am
Play a bunch of test games to figure out if your strategy will work how you think it'll work or not.
Also come up with a REALLY good pun to name your god. Seriously. Wouldn't you accept an NAP from Thy Lord Cod?
Pun/joke names are the best thing about anything. Thy Lord Cod, Rhesus Christ, Hung Lo, Merlin Haggard, 50 Centurion... Yeah.
Did some more testing out with LA R'lyeh, was gonna look for effective methods of reducing upkeep costs on the starspawn commanders. Tested out the lychantropos amulet to see how that worked.
Well, it states that it's a MR check, which is the most immediate problem since starspawns have 20 MR off the bat. I tried it out on a couple other random commanders with less MR I had sitting around, including a goatherd that had random-evented (I'm not sure why, but noticing that the herd of goats get affected by the dreamlands dominion and go insane made me laugh). I was moving one fellow around when he randomly transformed, underwater of course... So, yeah, he couldn't doggy paddle.
I gave the goatherd an eye of the void and a banner of the north star to hold onto, dropping his MR down to 5. He stayed that way for a couple years before I got tired of running the test.
Needless to say, not a very reliable tactic... It was CONSIDERABLY more likely for the prospect to get tainted by the eye and then get lynched by a group of 8 belly maw horrors or whatever than it was to turn into a werewolf, so I didn't even get a chance to double check that they were upkeep free or capable of researching. This happened to the two prior subjects before the goatherd.
I also found out that not all of the void spawn are NNE, which... Surprised me, slightly. Also vastnesses can apparently still freespawn, because that's fine.
I've also been mucking around with Gath a little bit lately, got some nifty things up their sleeves... Like the iassacharite sages being effectively drain-immune, and Gath's ready access to lightless lanterns and skull mentors.
Also, Benjaminites... Oh glory glory, those delightful benjaminites...
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 19, 2016, 10:21:29 am
Post by: Cruxador on September 19, 2016, 11:22:40 am
Personally, I stare at the inspector for a while ( https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/ ), then do a AI game with my nation (like 20 turns of one anyway), then try again with a less silly pretender build and then just shrug and take whatever.That's pretty much what I do. The other thing to keep in mind, though, is the expansion phase. Since that doesn't actually depend on the other players, you can test it pretty reliably. So you can spend a few testing games making sure to get good expansion and that'll help you out.
During the game itself however, I do intense studys each turn.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 19, 2016, 07:43:14 pm
How do you guys prep for a MP game with humans?
Make a pretender build, play 10-20 turns. Tweak build, play 10-20 turns anew. Tweak as necessary. Object of 10-20 turns is to get roughly province a turn. If I'm really serious I do it until I can expand reliably and efficiently. Usually I get it close enough and call it done.
Then I fail at expanding anyway.
Oh and I probably look at what everyone can recruit to come up with a very vague idea of what I might be facing in the first war or two.
There's pretty much no preparation on how to conduct mid-late game MP game. It comes down to experience and gut feeling.
Post by: E. Albright on September 19, 2016, 08:23:53 pm
Did some more testing out with LA R'lyeh, was gonna look for effective methods of reducing upkeep costs on the starspawn commanders. Tested out the lychantropos amulet to see how that worked.
It won't. At all. Anything naturally size 4+ (Amulet of Giants is irrelevant) will never transform. Anything else (...that's not lifeless or undead, I think? That'd be standard Transformation limitations...) has something like a 5% per turn chance... the Mod Inspector is a bad source of info in this case. All the above comes from the tried-and-true combination of having too much curiosity, too little to do, and too much free time.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 19, 2016, 08:26:15 pm
(I have, however, tested SC designs and items and so forth, by playing both nations in a two nation game)
Post by: Kagus on September 20, 2016, 07:33:19 pm
Then I realized I wasn't nearly as smart as I thought I was being, since the scales don't just reset in the absence of dominion apparently...
Ach vel. Back to the drawing board to squeeze more points out of nowhere.
Post by: Frumple on September 20, 2016, 07:52:10 pm
... actually, now I realize I can't recall exactly which scales can be modified like that. I know heat/cold is an option, and sloth, but the rest...
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 20, 2016, 08:10:52 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 20, 2016, 08:28:18 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 20, 2016, 08:51:36 pm
Doesn't Nazca have a magic boosting ritual? The Nazca lines, or whatever they're called in game. Probably too late in the research tree to use it effectively but still. That should be an option.Geoglyphs, apparently. Ench 5 isn't that bad, but it isn't good, either. Also you need an S3E2 flyer to cast it. So an astral random coya or a chunk more research for a booster. And it has to be in a waste.
... what I'm saying is you'll probably have better results hoping you find a magic scale site :V
E: Or building your pretender around it, I guess? That's feasible.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 20, 2016, 08:56:32 pm
Post by: sum1won on September 20, 2016, 09:47:53 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 21, 2016, 02:42:33 am
Probably your best chance there would be doing it to a province with a magic scale site, heh. Can't recall if there's any rituals that would let you do it own your own.
... actually, now I realize I can't recall exactly which scales can be modified like that. I know heat/cold is an option, and sloth, but the rest...
Ether gate for the soft price of like
Post by: chaoticag on September 21, 2016, 04:24:28 am
Post by: Culise on September 21, 2016, 07:31:03 am
Probably your best chance there would be doing it to a province with a magic scale site, heh. Can't recall if there's any rituals that would let you do it own your own.Mod Inspector (https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/) sees all, Mod Inspector knows all. It looks like most scales can be affected by sites, though some scales are much rarer than others: Heat/Cold, Growth/Death, Order/Turmoil, Magic/Drain, Luck/Misfortune, and Production/Sloth. Heat/Cold and Growth/Death are by far the most common, while Production and Luck are both dead last with only one non-Throne site each, for which the Production site is also unique. Your site bets for Magic are the Cursed Land, Enchanted Current (UW), Fathoms Deep (UW), The Cliff of Seven Directions, The Last Void (UW), as well as The Shattered Throne and The Throne of the First Age. Save for the Cursed Land, all of these are unique and rather rare sites or thrones, and some of them have awkward side-effects (The Cursed Land curses units, and The Shattered Throne also spreads Misfortune, Curses, and Horror Marks).
... actually, now I realize I can't recall exactly which scales can be modified like that. I know heat/cold is an option, and sloth, but the rest...
Post by: Kagus on September 21, 2016, 07:43:13 am
Also, does geoglyphs actually boost the magic of the province or boost the effective magic level of the casters for the sake of casting rituals? Never used it ingame.
As far as modifying scales with spells goes, there's also misfortune via Rain of Toads and I think Baleful Star... But there's not really much reason you'd want to keep a province with heavy misfortune.
On a different note, there's apparently a random event for LA Man that has as one of its firing conditions the requirement that EA Helheim is in play. So, uh... That's either a bork or they actually took the time to make an event specifically for people playing with an any-era mod.
Post by: Neonivek on September 21, 2016, 07:54:42 am
Quote
But there's not really much reason you'd want to keep a province with heavy misfortune
There are ways...
It isn't done too often but there are people who tank luck, without tanking everything else, in order to dominion harass their opponents with misfortune.
Post by: Kagus on September 21, 2016, 08:00:28 am
...also, did they change how fortune/misfortune work? I'm pretty sure your luck dominion would count as an equal level of misfortune when affecting enemy provinces, so a positive luck dom would still help you while hurting your enemies.
Post by: Shadowgandor on September 21, 2016, 09:43:38 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 21, 2016, 12:33:28 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 21, 2016, 03:04:04 pm
Sooo... I guess that explains where I got that from. Must've picked it up floating around as a "hint" somewhere.
Post by: Karlito on September 22, 2016, 12:50:02 am
Just popping in because I'm curious who is playing on your disciples team for community clash.The line-up is myself, Jilladilla, and Cheeetar, as well as some alternates standing by. There's a thread in PwYB, but most of our discussions have been via pm.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 22, 2016, 02:46:33 am
Post by: Shadowlord on September 22, 2016, 02:57:07 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 22, 2016, 05:03:32 am
Post by: Kagus on September 22, 2016, 07:11:28 am
Seriously, it just keeps happening. I swear those priests can see the future.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 26, 2016, 05:18:54 am
When attacking indie provinces, the distance between the front lines is exactly the distance both frontline troopers can move
I don't think that is right.
Anyway, Blood Slaves. I found myself with a lot of em in a nation that has no use for them, what does everyone think of blood-slave-meat-shields? Just putting 20 of them on a commander near the frontline, they will at least stop troops for a moment before dieing - also adding them to commanders in the back, for that little extra buffer? Seems useful, never saw it done.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 26, 2016, 07:24:38 am
P.S. One or two unskilled blood hunters in a province make practically no impact on unrest due to how slow they are at finding blood slaves, which means you can put them in every province, give them retreat orders, and not worry about destroying your income.
Post by: Kagus on September 26, 2016, 08:29:03 am
¨When attacking indie provinces, the distance between the front lines is exactly the distance both frontline troopers can move
I don't think that is right.
I know, it just always seems to be perfectly calculated so that they get the first hit in and do some real attrition damage.
As far as blood slaves go, you could always trade them with a nation who does want them... Otherwise, yeah. A little empowering can go a long way, getting you juicy items like the boots or earth stones. Also, B1 is surprisingly handy on thugs, if you can afford researching into Blood 3. Leeching touch is remarkably useful and only needs the one level of blood.
Now, recently I've been looking a bit at testing out some odd ideas... Like a bless strat for Jomon. The onmyo-ji are awesome mages and can band together to make some really rather terrifying communions, particularly with a monk or two using a matrix to remove everyone's fatigue. What's interesting about this is that every one of them spawns an ethereal sacred every battle, and I wanted to know how to get the most out of that throwaway battle summon.
As it stands, the poor things only have a strength 6 claw attack, so I was wondering how to beef them up enough to actually make an impact on the battle. Unless it's been changed, blood vengeance can proc even if the attack was negated by etherealness, so that's nice... Also it pushes them up to 10 strength which is at least slightly better. The tengu also get a lot out of it, as their lightning strike attacks get boosted to actually dangerous levels with the bonus strength, and all those cheap little ethereal minithugs won't complain about the BV either.
Problem is, it's fairly easy to counter. Same goes for a death bless, which would at least make the shikigami summons hang around a lot longer (only having 7 hp to begin with). They've got 12 attack, and the +2 AN damage would actually be really helpful for them, but that again is subject to MR checks. Fire seems like a meh choice since they've only got the one weapon and decent attack value to begin with, and 7 AP damage on its own isn't that big of a deal in LA.
Whatch'all think? Death would probably be the strongest specifically for the shikis, but the tengu would really like that extra strength. Also, demilich is cheaper, and whatever you take some amount of an earth bless is pretty much mandatory... All their sacred minithugs have some amount of encumbrance, and so do the shikigamis and the cap-only sacreds. Not to mention those lovely little monks could always do with some cheap reinvig.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 26, 2016, 08:48:23 am
Without an attack boost (F9) they'd have trouble with more defendy guys, though. IIRC LA is high on protection, not defense, but I don't play LA.
You may be able to use spells to buff them further.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 26, 2016, 10:03:28 am
Post by: Kagus on September 26, 2016, 10:14:55 am
W9 is nice for some things, but it still won't let the shikis actually hurt anything. The tengus would love it, but the minithugs would have a somewhat harder time of it what with how heavily encumbered both the kenzoku and ujigami are, not to mention the starting sacreds. They've all got good base weapons though, so the extra 0.5x attack would be put to good use until they knock themselves out with fatigue. Even the shikigami have 3 encumbrance.
Astral has some usage in making the shikis last a little bit longer, but definitely does nothing for their offense. Tengus would also love that, let them get off another slice before dissolving... but water would probably be better overall in their case.
Nature would be a funny one. Nobody has a lot of health, but it would double the health of the shikis and let them recover from minor booboos that make it through the etherealness. Same for the minithugs. Biggest bonus would probably be for the ryujin, giving them a bit more survivability for their massive cost. The jigami would also be kinda funny with that during summertime when they get the big HP boost, but their stats are otherwise pretty bad for actually fighting anything.
Blood Stones need Blood 3 to craft, thats quite some empowering and anything that needs blood (1) is useless imo and Blood 2 only offers The Black Heart as useful item...
Blood 1 lets you craft SDRs to help out with slave hunting on your empowered fellow, and B2 provides the aforementioned boots of youth.
B1 also has imp familiars, which can be surprisingly handy if you've got a lot of cheap throwaway researchers. Or, if you want to be really silly, hand them out to assassins. Assassinations have a good chance of happening during nighttime, so the shadow imp that pops out is not only another target, but also has 10 strength, 13 attack and 15 defense... Which is at the very least rather entertaining, and for 5 blood slaves (fewer if you've got forge bonuses) you can't really beat the price.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 26, 2016, 10:28:10 am
Post by: Frumple on September 26, 2016, 10:44:02 am
Does seem like there may be a couple specific blood items that do, though, double checking things a bit. Folks seem to think soul contracts are exempt, maybe imp familiars, too. Can check real quick, I guess... mod inspector doesn't seem to mention anything that'd be causing it.
E: Yeah, tested. Discounts work on most things, but it doesn't work on some. Imp familiars and soul contracts are definitely exceptions. Can't seem to find any easy reference for exactly what doesn't take, though.
Post by: Kagus on September 26, 2016, 10:47:19 am
They were exempt back when forge bonuses were a percentage-based thing, and since a lot of blood items had high slave costs, the ability to shave off 25-50% of that was deemed a wee bit ridiculous, especially in the case of things like soul contracts which are so amazingly lovely when massed. Now that it's a fixed gem cost, you can use hammers to get the most out of your virgins.
EDIT: Well, huh. Guess there are still some exceptions to the rule then. That's one of those things that would be nice if it actually displayed in the mod manager.
Post by: Frumple on September 26, 2016, 10:58:08 am
Post by: Kagus on September 26, 2016, 11:15:49 am
Shame Geryon's protection is as expensive as it is, and a unique artifact. I suppose it is a slightly more targetable version of Infernal Prison, but IP only takes 2 slaves rather than 30. Ah well.
I guess harpybombs didn't need to get any more powerful, heh.
Post by: Grek on September 28, 2016, 04:40:54 am
Post by: Shadowlord on September 28, 2016, 10:54:17 am
(It'd be a ton of work anyways, though, so it'll probably just remain a crazy idea)
Post by: Frumple on September 28, 2016, 12:28:12 pm
That said, somewhat tangential to D4 there's some WH40k ones built like that for Conquest of Elysium 4 that's pretty functional, if perhaps not the most balanced things the world has ever seen.
Post by: AlStar on September 28, 2016, 10:02:57 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 28, 2016, 10:24:34 pm
Post by: AlStar on September 28, 2016, 10:28:30 pm
Enslave Mind has a range of 100 instead of 20. :)Ah, so it does. That's a good reason - at least to start off casting Enslave mind first, then switch over.
Post by: Cruxador on September 28, 2016, 11:43:56 pm
I had the crazy crazy idea of modding in a sci-fi alien invaders faction, which could potentially have a ton of nation-specific crafting stuff and "spells" for constructing most of their units (using gems as power crystals or something like that)... but it doesn't appear possible to disable a single nation's access to the generic spells and items.Also, MA R'lyeh is already space aliens.
(It'd be a ton of work anyways, though, so it'll probably just remain a crazy idea)
Post by: Grek on September 29, 2016, 12:41:43 am
I had the crazy crazy idea of modding in a sci-fi alien invaders faction, which could potentially have a ton of nation-specific crafting stuff and "spells" for constructing most of their units (using gems as power crystals or something like that)... but it doesn't appear possible to disable a single nation's access to the generic spells and items.You could give the nation no national priests and make all of the spells use Holy instead of regular paths. Then give the priests Inspired Research at some low level.
(It'd be a ton of work anyways, though, so it'll probably just remain a crazy idea)
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 29, 2016, 09:47:42 am
Post by: Shadowlord on September 29, 2016, 12:02:04 pm
I had the crazy crazy idea of modding in a sci-fi alien invaders faction, which could potentially have a ton of nation-specific crafting stuff and "spells" for constructing most of their units (using gems as power crystals or something like that)... but it doesn't appear possible to disable a single nation's access to the generic spells and items.You could give the nation no national priests and make all of the spells use Holy instead of regular paths. Then give the priests Inspired Research at some low level.
(It'd be a ton of work anyways, though, so it'll probably just remain a crazy idea)
If the spells and items were all holy, they wouldn't actually need research. Of course, items can't have holy as a requirement (it's not possible to separate the path requirements from gem costs for items as far as I can see).
If you mean #divineins, that doesn't appear to allow specifying a level, it just limits the number of researchers per province to the dominion strength. If you mean #inspiringres, that makes researchers more effective.
I could see giving them spells and items which are level 0 only, and giving a large enough research penalty to their "mages" to make it impossible to research with them, along with #magicimmune. They'd have to rely on indie mages if they wanted to do research.
Post by: Frumple on September 29, 2016, 12:22:09 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 29, 2016, 02:17:07 pm
> After first three rounds all ordinary barbarians run
> The chief of barbarians goes berserk and becomes unable to route
> Cuts off your pretender head with first strike
> GG
Post by: Kagus on September 29, 2016, 02:26:07 pm
I'm like 60% sure holy spells can need research, actually. Cross-path ones, at very least.
Well, there are the Ashdod conjuration spells, but those are Death + Holy, not Holy + Death. Not coming up with any others at the moment.
Don't see why it wouldn't be possible, though.
Post by: E. Albright on September 29, 2016, 06:48:18 pm
Post by: Grek on September 29, 2016, 09:32:35 pm
Post by: Culise on September 29, 2016, 10:32:57 pm
Asphodel has spells that require only Holy paths and are in Enchantment.Enchantment 0, though, so they do not require research to unlock. That said, they do confirm the precedent set by Ulm and Ashdod's spells listed above for pure-holy spells, in that there is nothing stopping similar spells from being given non-zero research levels.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 30, 2016, 02:28:35 am
Gelatinous Cubes are stealthy (and pretty neat overall) - and one can make a lovly sneaky army with them and the silly Star Children of Ry'leh. I just imagine a little star kid and his band of funny cubes very slowly wandering the countryside.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 30, 2016, 07:56:41 am
I just came up with the most stupid ...What do you even call that? The "Wandering Jello Salesman" strategy?
Gelatinous Cubes are stealthy (and pretty neat overall) - and one can make a lovly sneaky army with them and the silly Star Children of Ry'leh. I just imagine a little star kid and his band of funny cubes very slowly wandering the countryside.
I started a new game as MA Pangaea, to get back into playing this game a bit. I'm still in awe of how stupidly powerful the Quicksilver Stampede is against basically any troops not backed by heavy magic. Pangaean White Centaurs, under a Water+Fire major bless. (Just enough points left over to have 7 dominion, 3 turmoil and 1 luck, on an imprisoned statue of war pretender). With 3 turmoil the pans and the Statue will have you swimming in free, upkeep-less flak, and the Stampede seems to flatten just about everything. In straight-up combat at least. They don't fare so well in taking fortresses most of the time.
Post by: Kagus on September 30, 2016, 08:52:38 am
Also, the white centaurs are berserkers, which means that once they're set off they'll get +2 fatigue every turn whether they fight or not, and fighting will accrue the usual levels of fatigue. For berserker summons, at least some earth reinvig is really helpful if not outright necessary in order to offset that.
Aaand then there's the usual gripery about them being cap-only sacreds and you don't have any H3 priests to bless parties without a prophet, but the dryads are at least H2 so there's that...
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 30, 2016, 09:30:53 am
Are you taking an awake pretender? Going to all the trouble of blessing the white centaurs, I'd just as soon take an imprisoned statue and get some better scales. The statue's barbarian summons aren't that great if they're just an add-on to pan swarms, and they cost just as much upkeep as regular recruited-barbs. Pump up luck at the very least, and I tend to like going for growth as well to kinda ensure your investment returns on provinces, and also to keep up with the supply demands of so many maenads and satyrs.
Also, the white centaurs are berserkers, which means that once they're set off they'll get +2 fatigue every turn whether they fight or not, and fighting will accrue the usual levels of fatigue. For berserker summons, at least some earth reinvig is really helpful if not outright necessary in order to offset that.
Aaand then there's the usual gripery about them being cap-only sacreds and you don't have any H3 priests to bless parties without a prophet, but the dryads are at least H2 so there's that...
I'm taking an imprisoned statue. It's the only way to get W9F9 with Pangaea and still stay at decent scales. I mean. I could gain more Luck but then I'd need to dip into something else. Death is not a good choice, Sloth isn't either since Turmoil 3 already drops income. Turmoil 3 Luck 1 with 7 Dominion is about the best I could ever squeeze out of the concept.
And yeah, they're berserkers. Thing is, stuff either has a hard time hitting them, or does not survive for long afterwards. Or they don't survive long. The fatigue is not a problem, at least normally. Them not routing is a much bigger benefit than the fatigue loss is a drawback.
There's almost no point bringing flak along with them. At best the flak soaks up arrows in the first rounds of combat. If there's an H3 priest anything between them and the enemy just gets in the way. If there's a few regular priests, like a few Hierophants, then they can Hold and Attack, waiting two turns for the priests to bless them up. And even then they usually enter combat at the same time as the rest of the army because they're so damn fast.
Their only weaknesses are ranged/magic attacks backed by lots of tough stuff. They don't have that much protection or MR. Watchers are especially nasty, though the magic fire damage does mean they can grind through them better than any regular army would.
And don't get me started on the dryads. My favorite unit in the game hands down. :D
Post by: Kagus on September 30, 2016, 10:05:03 am
Trading sloth for growth nets you +1% income per scale, as well as extra supplies and popgrowth which will, in the long run, translate into even more income and resources. Plus a couple nice events, but nothing outstanding.
It's perhaps a bit cheesy, but I think Nature is actually a pretty good alternative bless for them. White centaurs have 23 health, which means the +8 from N9 will juuuuust push them into the health class where they regen 4 HP per turn, which is pretty great. An imprisoned Irminsul with F9N9, 3 Turmoil and 6 Dom will have 89 points left over for however else you want to balance your scales. Sloth as mentioned is a nice pick, and a tap into cold will get you 40 more points and the income penalty will neutralize itself in the first summer, when funds tend to be particularly tight.
I was just mucking around a bit and 3Turm2Slot got me 8 dom and 3 luck, and it was a perfect 0 points left to boot. So there're options.
But, again, Pan isn't really the best bless nation out there. You might wanna muck around with Bandar Log a bit, those tiger riders are pretty goddamn scary... And after that, they open up into all sorts of no-upkeep cheap summonable sacreds.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 30, 2016, 11:10:03 am
Post by: Kagus on September 30, 2016, 02:46:54 pm
The centaur cataphracts would be good units, except that they're not considered "mounted", and thus take full encumbrance from all that armor they're wearing. They wear out rather quickly. And don't get me started on those armored war minotaurs... Poor saps.
Pan has decent access to earth and nature in order to buff up their delicious little footsoldiers with their boosted MR, fast speed, higher strength and HP and their recuperation... And that's about it.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 30, 2016, 02:53:34 pm
He went AI for no reason I could figure out (IIRC he said he forgot his plan or something?), considering he was winning every battle, after which I was able to eventually conquer his stuff because the AI was too stupid to continue invading me, and too stupid to make any more of the centaurs.
I think the lesson here is that the AI is guaranteed to be a worst planner than you, even if every turn is a week apart and you don't remember what you were doing.
Post by: Frumple on September 30, 2016, 02:58:55 pm
Pan has decent access to earth and nature in order to buff up their delicious little footsoldiers with their boosted MR, fast speed, higher strength and HP and their recuperation... And that's about it.Now asphodel, on the other hand... black centaurs? They're recolored white centaurs. Stats are identical. Then you have just about everything else Pan has, except death access instead of blood and those teeming hoards of undead. If you can deal with the dying domain (made somewhat easier by having the carrion casters and the unending stream of chaff), well... you're pan, but with bigger money issues and better in almost every other way, including strategy diversity :V
Post by: Kagus on September 30, 2016, 03:03:29 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 30, 2016, 05:08:02 pm
Post by: Frumple on September 30, 2016, 06:38:56 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 01, 2016, 07:31:52 pm
When picking a spell to cast (ritual) you can press letters to limit the magic schools - A for Air, S for Astral, etc...
Still learning...
Also: Magic Duel makes heads explode.
Post by: Cruxador on October 01, 2016, 10:54:58 pm
When picking a spell to cast (ritual) you can press letters to limit the magic schools - A for Air, S for Astral, etc...It works in Research, too.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on October 02, 2016, 01:12:53 am
Post by: Culise on October 02, 2016, 01:16:25 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 02, 2016, 03:24:03 pm
(and they are actually pretty kickass, but only have 6 movement, obviously)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*fixed link
Post by: Shadowlord on October 02, 2016, 03:33:47 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Neonivek on October 02, 2016, 06:27:23 pm
I'll just have to get it from steam when it goes on a super fantastical sale.
Post by: AlStar on October 02, 2016, 06:32:43 pm
Nation Gen created Snail Cav ; )That is one slow-ass lance charge they've got going there, but they otherwise look pretty awesome.
(and they are actually pretty kickass, but only have 6 movement, obviously)
Post by: Shadowlord on October 02, 2016, 07:40:07 pm
Ugh well my copy of Dominions 4 is useless. Dang switching how updates happens.
I'll just have to get it from steam when it goes on a super fantastical sale.
Wait, what?
Post by: Culise on October 02, 2016, 09:09:53 pm
My first thought was that he picked it up at Desura, just as I did, but if that were the case, he should have been able to activate it on Steam with his Desura key before the site went down, back when Desura initiated bankruptcy proceedings and the notifications went out.Ugh well my copy of Dominions 4 is useless. Dang switching how updates happens.
I'll just have to get it from steam when it goes on a super fantastical sale.
Wait, what?
EDIT: I've been rummaging around with that assumption in mind for various reasons. You should be able to retrieve the key from here (http://www.desura.com/collection), but it's been so long since I logged in that I forgot which e-mail address I used and my password and thus accidentally locked myself out. I'm waiting for the password reset, but I don't even know if that aspect of their system is working any more. Also, if it was purchased at GamersGate, the key there can also be used to activate it on Steam. I'd recommend it just as a precautionary measure, even if you don't actually play it over Steam, for precisely the reason illustrated by Desura's downfall.
Post by: E. Albright on October 02, 2016, 10:00:41 pm
Also, Culise, the zombie Desura (it's back up, AGAIN?!?!?) hasn't been able to send emails for... a year now? However long it's been, that functionality is definitely dead.
Post by: chaoticag on October 03, 2016, 04:16:27 am
Ugh well my copy of Dominions 4 is useless. Dang switching how updates happens.Email illwinter, they're generally good about this. But yes, your game key should be in a plantext among your files.It's called Dom4key and it's in the same directory as your game. It's plaintext as mentioned so open it up with notepad. You may wish to include this in your email to illwinter.
I'll just have to get it from steam when it goes on a super fantastical sale.
Post by: Cruxador on October 03, 2016, 10:34:22 am
Ugh well my copy of Dominions 4 is useless. Dang switching how updates happens.Every copy of Dominions should have a Steam-viable key. It only wouldn't if you got it from some disreputable third-party site which was essentially selling pirated copies. It's actually necessary that everybody have one, because the key is a major part of multiplayer cheat detection.
I'll just have to get it from steam when it goes on a super fantastical sale.
Post by: Neonivek on October 03, 2016, 08:45:03 pm
I'd rather have it on steam at this point honestly.
Post by: Cruxador on October 03, 2016, 09:41:57 pm
Ehh it is a Gamer's gate thing...If you activate the key on Steam, you should have it on Steam just the same as if you bought it from them in the first place.
I'd rather have it on steam at this point honestly.
(http://i.imgur.com/4fLGwS1.png)
Post by: Frumple on October 04, 2016, 01:03:30 am
Post by: Neonivek on October 04, 2016, 01:39:52 am
Now to find this nationgen people are using O_o surprisingly hard to search for O_o
Post by: Shadowlord on October 04, 2016, 05:38:15 am
Download, run nationgen.jar. When you have generated a mod that you want to use you have to move it to the game's mod folder.
Post by: E. Albright on October 04, 2016, 08:16:04 am
The "official thread" these days: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=1619
Dev work on it is slow right now because Elmokki is in the academic year, and I'm suffering a lack of motivation, but it creeps along. If I can be arsed, there'll probably be a release with either Mictlan-esque or Kailasa-esque humans next month (among other things). Maybe both, but also maybe neither.
Post by: Neonivek on October 04, 2016, 08:18:53 am
JIC: I am joking... that and I think the mod already has that (They have some sort of extra poison attack or somethin)
Post by: E. Albright on October 04, 2016, 11:22:25 am
Post by: Neonivek on October 04, 2016, 07:55:23 pm
My personal design ethos is "can it be based on something already in Dominions (or the Dominionsier bits of CoE)? If so, go for it, as ridiculously as possible, and preferably with hoburgs" - hence why we have pygmies riding swans, Sidhe riding giant swans, hoburgbred sailing about in black swan chariots... All it would take would be for KO to make one skunk sprite, and it'd be on...
Honestly... Sidhe riding giant swans makes so much sense...
Post by: Nirur Torir on October 06, 2016, 02:41:45 pm
A hurricane will be hitting near me, and there's a chance my power would go out for a few days. The game's been going at a great pace so far, and I'd hate to be the one to kill the momentum.
Post by: Anvilfolk on October 06, 2016, 02:43:08 pm
Can I get a sub ready to take over for a few days for the beginner-average skill round 23? I'm MA T'ien C'hi.
A hurricane will be hitting near me, and there's a chance my power would go out for a few days. The game's been going at a great pace so far, and I'd hate to be the one to kill the momentum.
The important part is that you're safe. The game can wait, as far as I am concerned!
Post by: chaoticag on October 06, 2016, 02:50:57 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on October 06, 2016, 03:17:27 pm
A hurricane will be hitting near me, and there's a chance my power would go out for a few days.
... and I have a population map and easy access to hurricanes, and soon, volcanic eruptions, tidal waves.
>_>
Post by: Nirur Torir on October 06, 2016, 03:22:07 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on October 06, 2016, 06:12:00 pm
Post by: Anvilfolk on October 06, 2016, 07:31:37 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 06, 2016, 07:49:07 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 07, 2016, 04:17:47 am
What spell allows someone to teleport everything in a province away? Haven't come up with anything from a cursory search of the dom4 inspector.
Wish, specifically wishing for "population".
It takes all units, including troops, population and unrest (since I now have a shitton of unrrest - thats why my income actually went DOWN) and teleports them to a random province of the wish-caster.
Also I delayed Round23 for 72 hours and will continue to delay as needed, of course. Stay safe everyone.
Hosting postponed for Bay12GamesRound423 by 72 hours. The game will now host at 00:13 GMT on Tuesday October 11th.
Post by: Anvilfolk on October 07, 2016, 08:23:19 am
What spell allows someone to teleport everything in a province away? Haven't come up with anything from a cursory search of the dom4 inspector.
Wish, specifically wishing for "population".
It takes all units, including troops, population and unrest (since I now have a shitton of unrrest - thats why my income actually went DOWN) and teleports them to a random province of the wish-caster.
Also I delayed Round23 for 72 hours and will continue to delay as needed, of course. Stay safe everyone.
Hosting postponed for Bay12GamesRound423 by 72 hours. The game will now host at 00:13 GMT on Tuesday October 11th.
Hadn't realised that my population was now 0 in that province. Consider myself angry.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 07, 2016, 08:47:02 am
Oh god, that... yes, it is completly random - also where it puts the troops is completly random, too - so I have to defend all my provinces at once or something while using it. That is just shite luck.
Post by: Anvilfolk on October 07, 2016, 09:49:16 am
Post by: E. Albright on October 07, 2016, 11:30:23 am
Post by: Karlito on October 10, 2016, 01:48:31 pm
Post by: Cruxador on October 17, 2016, 07:50:10 pm
Previous completed AARs are linked in the Index at the top of the page.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 20, 2016, 02:28:50 pm
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/11/18/the-50-best-strategy-games-on-pc/38/
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 20, 2016, 02:36:09 pm
Is there any nondesura link to dom 4 sprites ? :(
Post by: Cruxador on November 20, 2016, 05:48:33 pm
Ehm, seems, that desura forums are locked until the new owner will do something with them :cWell, the mod inspector (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/) has them if you just need individual ones. If you want the whole dump, it's probably somewhere on the dom3mods forum.
Is there any nondesura link to dom 4 sprites ? :(
Dominions 4 is nr. 14 on RPS's 50 best strategy games on pcConsidering the stuff they put above it, that list is kind of meaningless.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/11/18/the-50-best-strategy-games-on-pc/38/Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2016, 06:45:32 pm
Sprite dump thread on Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/app/259060/discussions/0/357288572132316534/
Both are through 4.25, but there hasn't been much new art since then.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 21, 2016, 01:55:33 am
Post by: chaoticag on November 21, 2016, 02:27:09 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 21, 2016, 03:10:01 am
Post by: Jilladilla on November 21, 2016, 04:55:14 am
That said, I do know the value of a bless, it can turn some units into glorious bastions of not dying ever lol, or others into almost unstoppable balls of murder, but never expect me to go tri or quad bless, dual at most for me, and even then the paths tend to have value to my strategy anyway.
Post by: Grek on November 21, 2016, 06:00:52 am
Post by: Cheeetar on November 21, 2016, 06:15:29 am
Post by: chaoticag on November 21, 2016, 07:00:50 am
Growth 3, Order 3, No heat/cold - but I also cling to bless strats to often, you always think you're going to be the one that breaks the meta with (X/Y) Bless, but "sadly" Earth/Nature seems to always be the best...
I had a fun pretender for Jomon actually. 9D/9N for two reasons. One is it gives my sacred units more bite, another lets my tengus tank more hits. Pairing regen with undying also lets your units live if they have negative hitpoints. They also had a flavor of sacred that already had good stats for attacking. Alternatively, a minor water and fire bless is quite powerful on those same units anyway, they just end up less resilient.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 21, 2016, 08:16:27 am
but "sadly" Earth/Nature seems to always be the best...
Not always. It depends on who you're playing and what your strategy is. I have a N9W4 bless and strong scales for Ys in the game I'm playing now (IIRC Order 3, production 3, growth 3, heat 3 because free points and reasons (I can cross rivers with my amphibious troops even if said rivers never freeze, so it's a strategic advantage), and I think magic 1 too). I don't really need an earth bless because my sacreds are so damn hard to hit as it is, and the minor water bless boosts their defense even higher (a little, anyways). Plus they regenerate due to the nature bless. Ys doesn't have H3 priests, but bishop fish are easy to summon, and amulets of the fish are easy to craft (Ys can recruit casters with both air and water).
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 21, 2016, 09:51:16 am
I used to play with high income bless(s) for big armys, now I play the same for mage/fort/lab spam (Pan/Oceania and R'yleh all enjoy this greatly, a trend I didn't notice myself for a while).
I want to like nations with mixed themes (like lanka, Ys, etc), but I just can't seem to make em work...
Oh and Bless strats are great if you want a "fairly" low effort game, it tends to be a bit of a one trick pony.
Post by: E. Albright on November 21, 2016, 01:15:36 pm
However. Most games I play are SP games testing NationGen features, not played to completion, and frequently with nations I haven't even looked at. The above mix is one that I've found to be flexible and comfortable for generic early games on large maps for as long as it takes for me to test or get a sense of foo, where foo is whatever change or implementation I'm sanity-checking. Under very specific circumstances I've done similar things in MP, but I'd be more likely to go minor-only or 9S in those cases, depending on the paths available to the nation.
Generally, I don't like to rush. I can do it, but I'd rather come up with a plan that lets me avoid rushing while staving off anyone who rushes me. All the preceding reflects that.
Post by: Kagus on November 22, 2016, 01:12:52 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 22, 2016, 02:45:46 am
So here's a question. What kind of pretenders/disciples do you guys prefer making? Personally I might have become a little too fond of bless strategies after thinking they seemed silly. Although sometimes you just need scales.I love over the top meme strategies, especially mid-game stuff. Anything that has a clear and simple strategy to win with gimmicky spells, bless, or both. I have had problems of over-committing to something that seemed cool and paying too high of a trade-off or failing to pay attention to flexibility against other options, but I think I'm getting better about that. Pretty much never take an awake pretender or expansion-oriented build.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 22, 2016, 03:23:20 am
Post by: Jilladilla on November 22, 2016, 05:17:02 am
Post by: Neonivek on November 22, 2016, 09:30:03 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 22, 2016, 12:21:02 pm
Sometimes I wonder if battle caster is the way to go because while spells are powerful... Killing casters pretty much cripples you forever... and there are a LOT of great strategies for doing so.Overcommitting mages and losing them will end you, but good luck winning major battles after the early game without significant mage support.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 22, 2016, 12:28:50 pm
I tried devising strategies around that, it's mostly how I figured I'd use the Quicksilver Stampede. Too bad Pangaea is not big on Air mages, a bunch of casters Gift of Flight'ing a bundle of murderhappy White Centaurs set to Attack Rear would be quite hilarious.Sometimes I wonder if battle caster is the way to go because while spells are powerful... Killing casters pretty much cripples you forever... and there are a LOT of great strategies for doing so.Overcommitting mages and losing them will end you, but good luck winning major battles after the early game without significant mage support.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 30, 2016, 03:15:59 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Neonivek on November 30, 2016, 03:20:07 pm
I tried devising strategies around that, it's mostly how I figured I'd use the Quicksilver Stampede. Too bad Pangaea is not big on Air mages, a bunch of casters Gift of Flight'ing a bundle of murderhappy White Centaurs set to Attack Rear would be quite hilarious.Sometimes I wonder if battle caster is the way to go because while spells are powerful... Killing casters pretty much cripples you forever... and there are a LOT of great strategies for doing so.Overcommitting mages and losing them will end you, but good luck winning major battles after the early game without significant mage support.
Yeah if I had to give Dominions (well just 3 and 4 I guess) one major flaw... it is that the game has little-no bounce back. Well outside certain factions and specific strategies.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 30, 2016, 07:14:49 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 30, 2016, 09:26:07 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 30, 2016, 10:34:37 pm
I assume they mean it's hard to recover from significant loses, or even to catch up if an opponent significantly outgrows or outpaces you. I'm not sure I agree with the statement as a general rule, because it makes assumptions about metagame factors (even if it's just the AI's swarm->kill->repeat mindlessness). But I don't exactly disagree with it either...I assume so too. The game is built around maintaining pressure and momentum. Either constantly pushing against the enemy, or always keeping the ability to. As soon as the momentum slips or some key variable in your strategy fails, your whole nation is liable to basically fold in, collapse without any chance of recovery. Unless you have allies, which in this game is highly unlikely, or usually happens in a situation where your enemy has allies too, so your allies are under just as much pressure.
Post by: Frumple on November 30, 2016, 11:05:05 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 30, 2016, 11:14:55 pm
(cases in point - my last two games here. First time I managed to misjudge indie strength versus my own since I'm not that used to Oceania, and lost three turns early-game building up my army again; I had no army or territory to speak of and was locked in the sea with R'lyeh. Second time I was in a very poor strategic position from the outset, but again, losing a turn of activity with a messed-up move order cost me the strategic position to block off Agartha without having to attack them, which then cost me the rest of the game as I couldn't focus on Ulm. This game causes losses to snowall very quickly, and an early loss to an early mishap can be equally unsatisfying.)
Post by: E. Albright on November 30, 2016, 11:56:07 pm
As soon as the momentum slips or some key variable in your strategy fails, your whole nation is liable to basically fold in, collapse without any chance of recovery.
This really isn't as true as a lot of people hold it to be. I'm not saying it isn't true, but you can hold out in an underdog position a lot longer than many people are willing to even consider, and if you're willing to do so (and again, many if not most people aren't) it often has a huge effect on the momentum of the person who just crippled you. Sticking it out and forcing Pyrrhic victories instead of walking away as soon as your biggest army dies or you come under siege can make what had been a snowballing power grab into a slogging resource drain. Admittedly, you're more likely to be kingmaker than king. But still, it can be possible to eke out comebacks if you can make your would-be killer bleed enough to attract sharks.
The key point is you need to plan for the possibility of failure rather than just trying to come back only if you suffer a catastrophic defeat. This means doing things like not overcommitting resources, avoiding all-or-nothing confrontations, holding back reserves, and a variety of other unpopular non-all-out-offensive strategies that conventional wisdom in most Dominions communities dismiss as playing to lose...
(And yes, I'm told I am an absolute joy to play against, TYVM.)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 01, 2016, 12:08:04 am
Heh, I sometimes do the ragnarok-proofing thing by mistake rather than intentionally. "Damn I just lost the main army, oh well, guess that's good game then. What do you mean I still have 200 units? Wait, that province has been cranking out minotaurs all this time?? And I was wondering why my income was getting low."As soon as the momentum slips or some key variable in your strategy fails, your whole nation is liable to basically fold in, collapse without any chance of recovery.
This really isn't as true as a lot of people hold it to be. I'm not saying it isn't true, but you can hold out in an underdog position a lot longer than many people are willing to even consider, and if you're willing to do so (and again, many if not most people aren't) it often has a huge effect on the momentum of the person who just crippled you. Sticking it out and forcing Pyrrhic victories instead of walking away as soon as your biggest army dies or you come under siege can make what had been a snowballing power grab into a slogging resource drain. Admittedly, you're more likely to be kingmaker than king. But still, it can be possible to eke out comebacks if you can make your would-be killer bleed enough to attract sharks.
The key point is you need to plan for the possibility of failure rather than just trying to come back only if you suffer a catastrophic defeat. This means doing things like not overcommitting resources, avoiding all-or-nothing confrontations, holding back reserves, and a variety of other unpopular non-all-out-offensive strategies that conventional wisdom in most Dominions communities dismiss as playing to lose...
(And yes, I'm told I am an absolute joy to play against, TYVM.)
But yeah, I suppose it's possible to sort of do preventative strategizing like that. Of course the counterargument is that if you hold some of your resources back to hold off a possible collapse then the threat of collapse is more likely to actually manifest, since you're not bringing your full power forward.
Post by: Cruxador on December 01, 2016, 01:05:32 am
I assume they mean it's hard to recover from significant loses, or even to catch up if an opponent significantly outgrows or outpaces you. I'm not sure I agree with the statement as a general rule, because it makes assumptions about metagame factors (even if it's just the AI's swarm->kill->repeat mindlessness). But I don't exactly disagree with it either...I don't really agree with it, personally. Unless you set up a strategy where your plan is to expand early or win an early war and then use your size to brute force a victory, and then fail to get that early game win that you need. But that's your choice. A plan that's more balanced towards performance in the middle of the game allows you to really do a good job taking advantage of opportunities later on and having a solid shot at winning. Of course, you can be totally annihilated, and everyone will at some point, and I don't know of a case of someone losing a capital and winning, but suffering setbacks doesn't put you out of the running for the game. I certainly prefer this to some sort of explicit "you're losing so you get bonuses" mechanic.
For what it's worth, it's... probably a good thing. If D4 had easily leveraged comeback mechanics the game could pretty easily end up having match lengths that are just too long to actually play. Considering MP games can already take up a few months without much trouble, if the game was designed so that it regularly got stretched out even further I'd probably wager the player base would just kinda' collapse. Very few people want to get stuck in a game that's unending back and forth. To say nothing of how unsatisfying it tends to be when you win a game pretty much strictly by dint of playing until the other side got sick of keeping things going and quit. Or being on the other side of that, heh.In fact, there was a Dominions 3 game that went on as an indefinite stalemate for some several years. It resulted in things being changed to make the holding of land more important, most significantly a change to how gemgen items work (though that also had the purpose of reducing micro).
The flip side to that is that the "key screwup" can happen at any point. Within the first few turns, if you slip up or get unlucky you'll lose enough momentum to allow your enemy to get an edge in territories, income, dominion, and production power, since those are all interlinked. And once that happens, it's very hard to come out on top again unless the enemy gets a similar magnitude of slip-up at some point as well. Lacking late-game comeback mechanics is one thing, but you also lack early-game ones. It's rather punishing.I agree that early game requires more perfection. Luckily, it also allows for more testing, since indies are the same in singleplayer as multiplayer. Diplomatic concerns do kind of address this, but even that takes a while to wind up, at least until after expansion. Even an expansion fail can be countered though. Lord knows I've played plenty of games where my expansion was shit, and rebounded. One expansion party is generally only two turns after all, if you expand for the whole first year, that's going to be a relatively small loss, proportion-wise. Definitely being trapped in a small underwater area with a stronger underwater nation means that you're liable to be screwed, but that's also sort of a perfect storm of problems.
You're not as likely to be the winner as if you won every war you fought, but that doesn't mean you can't win. After all, your enemy is now a big yummy treat for others to feed on – but once he's in a war, that gives you the potential to peace out with him and work on expanding elsewhere, then come back for him later. And whoever ate him, if you're lucky and skilled at diplomacy, it'll be multiple nations. Hell, if it's too much against him, you could even ally with that guy against his new enemies and let everyone get weakened by war until you're able to meet them.As soon as the momentum slips or some key variable in your strategy fails, your whole nation is liable to basically fold in, collapse without any chance of recovery.
This really isn't as true as a lot of people hold it to be. I'm not saying it isn't true, but you can hold out in an underdog position a lot longer than many people are willing to even consider, and if you're willing to do so (and again, many if not most people aren't) it often has a huge effect on the momentum of the person who just crippled you. Sticking it out and forcing Pyrrhic victories instead of walking away as soon as your biggest army dies or you come under siege can make what had been a snowballing power grab into a slogging resource drain. Admittedly, you're more likely to be kingmaker than king. But still, it can be possible to eke out comebacks if you can make your would-be killer bleed enough to attract sharks.
Quote
The key point is you need to plan for the possibility of failure rather than just trying to come back only if you suffer a catastrophic defeat. This means doing things like not overcommitting resources, avoiding all-or-nothing confrontations, holding back reserves, and a variety of other unpopular non-all-out-offensive strategies that conventional wisdom in most Dominions communities dismiss as playing to lose...Only a fool calls that playing to lose. Even if you're not already in a losing position, committing too much means you win this war but lose the next. Of course, having units sitting around doing nothing is pointless, but units aren't that important anyway, later on. It's the mages that matter, and when they're sitting around, they're researching.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 01, 2016, 02:24:06 am
You're not as likely to be the winner as if you won every war you fought, but that doesn't mean you can't win. After all, your enemy is now a big yummy treat for others to feed on – but once he's in a war, that gives you the potential to peace out with him and work on expanding elsewhere, then come back for him later. And whoever ate him, if you're lucky and skilled at diplomacy, it'll be multiple nations. Hell, if it's too much against him, you could even ally with that guy against his new enemies and let everyone get weakened by war until you're able to meet them.Somehow, that never works for me. Although I may just be especially bad at diplomacy. :P
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Only a fool calls that playing to lose. Even if you're not already in a losing position, committing too much means you win this war but lose the next. Of course, having units sitting around doing nothing is pointless, but units aren't that important anyway, later on. It's the mages that matter, and when they're sitting around, they're researching.That's another problem of mine. I tend to almost completely rely on regular armies for fighting, unless there are spells that are basically gimmies and there are ready mages available for casting. For instance, LA Man's Magister Arcane and his 2A magic perfectly complements Man's longbowman swarms with Wind Guide. That sort of thing.
Post by: Jilladilla on December 01, 2016, 03:38:42 am
but units aren't that important anyway, later on. It's the mages that matter, and when they're sitting around, they're researching.
Oh come now, as someone who's general strategy tends to rely on bog standard units, I can tell you this is flat out untrue.
I have (figuratively) trampled over other armies with hyper-buffed infantry before after all. It's always fun to watch all the battle magic do absolutely nothing to deter my ranks. It's why I like earth magic so much.
And even if you prefer using mages in the traditional death dealing sense, you still need a healthy amount of infantry for your armies to act as ablative armor for those mages.
But at the same time let's not forget Reanimation style chaff spam, there just hits a point where there's just too many of them to deal with regardless of what you have.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 01, 2016, 03:46:17 am
I once tested my Quicksilver Stampede against a max indie strength level 3 throne province full of undead.but units aren't that important anyway, later on. It's the mages that matter, and when they're sitting around, they're researching.
Oh come now, as someone who's general strategy tends to rely on bog standard units, I can tell you this is flat out untrue.
I have (figuratively) trampled over other armies with hyper-buffed infantry before after all. It's always fun to watch all the battle magic do absolutely nothing to deter my ranks. It's why I like earth magic so much.
And even if you prefer using mages in the traditional death dealing sense, you still need a healthy amount of infantry for your armies to act as ablative armor for those mages.
But at the same time let's not forget Reanimation style chaff spam, there just hits a point where there's just too many of them to deal with regardless of what you have.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4152380/Screenshots/2015-10-18_00001.jpg)
There were the 5 priests on my side, sure, but still. They made quite the show. They chew up flak undead like there's no tomorrow, even ethereal ones.
(the satyrs mostly survived because they were stuck behind the wall of centaurs; the ones that died found a way around)
Post by: E. Albright on December 01, 2016, 10:04:00 am
Only a fool calls that playing to lose. Even if you're not already in a losing position, committing too much means you win this war but lose the next. Of course, having units sitting around doing nothing is pointless, but units aren't that important anyway, later on. It's the mages that matter, and when they're sitting around, they're researching.
Then there are a lot of fools in the Dom4 MP community. Which, IMNPHO, there are. So, yeah. There are subcommunities out there which obsess about "dueling" in full-size games and dismiss diplomacy as weakness and a crutch. And OMG, they scoff at the idea of "defensive" play; it's all-out or nothing. It's almost charming in its simplicity...
I'd argue that having units sitting around is not always pointless, though. If they're idle but deterring, they're not idle. Take as a rather extreme example: round 4.18. I had literally hundreds of troops (and by the end, thousands) sitting idle for almost the entire game, by design. Ofc, these troops were ghouls, and they'd die to banishment spam just about as fast as the longdead or soulless I was also amassing while being more "expensive" to reanimate. And they were "sitting idle" in forts where they promised to make any attempts to siege me down slow and miserable, and that was even if the defenders didn't break out BVCs. Again, that's an extreme case. But if you can secure a border by having idle troops and reduce the odds of your one-front war turning into a two-front war... mission accomplished.
Post by: Cruxador on December 02, 2016, 02:52:06 am
That's another problem of mine. I tend to almost completely rely on regular armies for fightingHate to break it to you, mate, but you might be a scrub.
Note how all of those strategies rely on magic, though. You need mages to buff, in that context, units are important as vehicles for your buffs, not for what merit they might have independently of magic. The "traditional" magic, which as you describe it is basically evocation, focuses on the mages still and uses units as a screen to protect the mages, who are important. I actually took this one to a bit of an extreme in my latest AAR, but even for something like Abysia, this becomes true soon enough anyway. Well, that specific example has trouble as soon as someone researches Rain, but you know what I mean. Reanimation is also done by mages. Even freespawn nations don't use that later on. Lemuria tends to stick their ghosts in forts and rely on thugs and other shenanigans later on, and Ermor uses them a bit more but still relies primarily on lictors, which are a vehicle for a big bless – essentially equivalent to buffing, though it comes online earlier – and still want some big mages in the back line, but are probably the best argument I can think of for not relying heavily on mages in any situation after the earlygame.but units aren't that important anyway, later on. It's the mages that matter, and when they're sitting around, they're researching.
Oh come now, as someone who's general strategy tends to rely on bog standard units, I can tell you this is flat out untrue.
I have (figuratively) trampled over other armies with hyper-buffed infantry before after all. It's always fun to watch all the battle magic do absolutely nothing to deter my ranks. It's why I like earth magic so much.
And even if you prefer using mages in the traditional death dealing sense, you still need a healthy amount of infantry for your armies to act as ablative armor for those mages.
But at the same time let's not forget Reanimation style chaff spam, there just hits a point where there's just too many of them to deal with regardless of what you have.
That's the kind of stuff I was talking about, anyway. It's relevant in the previous discussion because although you need units to fulfill some purposes, you can generally get them close to as fast as you need to, or else the reason why not is because of small size that requires you to expand anyway. Mages are a different matter, since they're limited to one per lab (and, usually, fort) per turn. They benefit from infrastructure, and more importantly they benefit from research. And they are the limiting factor, because you can lose a dozen turns at once and be in a very bad situation, whereas units can be effectively replaced much more quickly, and even if you're suffering losses, it's unlikely that your demand for troops will outpace your supply of them in the same way that happens with mages.
I once tested my Quicksilver Stampede against a max indie strength level 3 throne province full of undead.Yeah, sacreds are great. Even so, they don't scale like mages. Anything that counters 100 will have a pretty good chance of countering 1000. Assuming it's in a single battle, raiding's another matter, and numbers help there. But in a stand-up fight, somebody's going to find out how to whup you, and it's almost always going to be "loads of mages". Sometimes it'll be an SC, but their heyday ended with Dom3.
There were the 5 priests on my side, sure, but still. They made quite the show. They chew up flak undead like there's no tomorrow, even ethereal ones.
(the satyrs mostly survived because they were stuck behind the wall of centaurs; the ones that died found a way around)
Then there are a lot of fools in the Dom4 MP community. Which, IMNPHO, there are. So, yeah. There are subcommunities out there which obsess about "dueling" in full-size games and dismiss diplomacy as weakness and a crutch. And OMG, they scoff at the idea of "defensive" play; it's all-out or nothing. It's almost charming in its simplicity...Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with doing things like "dueling" if that's how people play in your community and you do it for fun. It's not playing to win, but if that's how you like to play, it's a perfectly legitimate choice. It's definitely suboptimal though, at least if there isn't a gentleman's agreement to not interfere with these duels. In a free-for-all (that is, no such agreement) winning without diplomacy is a possibility only if you're a skilled veteran and your opponents are very much not.
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I'd argue that having units sitting around is not always pointless, though. If they're idle but deterring, they're not idle. Take as a rather extreme example: round 4.18. I had literally hundreds of troops (and by the end, thousands) sitting idle for almost the entire game, by design. Ofc, these troops were ghouls, and they'd die to banishment spam just about as fast as the longdead or soulless I was also amassing while being more "expensive" to reanimate. And they were "sitting idle" in forts where they promised to make any attempts to siege me down slow and miserable, and that was even if the defenders didn't break out BVCs. Again, that's an extreme case. But if you can secure a border by having idle troops and reduce the odds of your one-front war turning into a two-front war... mission accomplished.I sort of agree with the thrust of this, and vampires especially are a good way to make nobody want to touch you. Ghouls are a good garrison, not only for deterrence but just so that if a fort gets sieged they'll have something that's not mindless in there to keep from being taken down in a turn. Something like that isn't a gain for you though, it's only a status quo, a lack of loss. Which is good, but it can't be your sole strategy, and the longer you spend only doing that, the further behind you'll fall.
Post by: Neonivek on December 02, 2016, 03:44:40 am
For what it's worth, it's... probably a good thing. If D4 had easily leveraged comeback mechanics the game could pretty easily end up having match lengths that are just too long to actually play. Considering MP games can already take up a few months without much trouble, if the game was designed so that it regularly got stretched out even further I'd probably wager the player base would just kinda' collapse. Very few people want to get stuck in a game that's unending back and forth. To say nothing of how unsatisfying it tends to be when you win a game pretty much strictly by dint of playing until the other side got sick of keeping things going and quit. Or being on the other side of that, heh.
Probably but for a game that has such a "short" 'finish' it has a long campaign. I'd probably say 5% of the game is the actual "Playing the game" part, with the remaining 95% being clean up and the like.
And of all the Dominions games this is the one that really COULD have turn around and not bog the game down endlessly.
Post by: E. Albright on December 02, 2016, 10:31:55 am
It's definitely suboptimal though, at least if there isn't a gentleman's agreement to not interfere with these duels.
The people who advocate this kind of play 1) don't name it as dueling, and 2) would scoff at the idea of making an agreement to duel since that's diplomacy. They tend to present arguments that someone else "interfering" is sub-optimal play because then the interferer will get stomped on by the person they're interfering with. Yes, really. People who get taken seriously advance these kinds of arguments. It's a lot of macho bravado, and it hinges on notions of your opponent folding like soggy cardboard as soon as you have one significant victory, and then quitting instead of making you fight to take their territory. There are apparently entire communities that adopt these perverse "L2P/DiplomacyIs4Noobs" sort of notions. It's... weird. I've never gotten my head around it and have wasted more time than I ever should have arguing with advocates of this on other forums...
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 02, 2016, 01:28:52 pm
While units are often countered by other units (to a degree), most armies will be defeated by a spell that counters them.
I.e. you lose some big fights but you now got your earthquake and can counter there free spam-army.
PS: Wouldn't it be great to be able to accept puppet states? Then again, anyone who can force 1-2 players to become puppets already has enough magic and troop diversity on the field to defeat nearly any enemy.
Post by: E. Albright on December 02, 2016, 01:41:54 pm
Post by: Gigalith on December 02, 2016, 02:53:41 pm
For what it's worth, it's... probably a good thing. If D4 had easily leveraged comeback mechanics the game could pretty easily end up having match lengths that are just too long to actually play. Considering MP games can already take up a few months without much trouble, if the game was designed so that it regularly got stretched out even further I'd probably wager the player base would just kinda' collapse. Very few people want to get stuck in a game that's unending back and forth. To say nothing of how unsatisfying it tends to be when you win a game pretty much strictly by dint of playing until the other side got sick of keeping things going and quit. Or being on the other side of that, heh.In fact, there was a Dominions 3 game that went on as an indefinite stalemate for some several years. It resulted in things being changed to make the holding of land more important, most significantly a change to how gemgen items work (though that also had the purpose of reducing micro).
Was this Forge of Godhood (I think that was it's name?) by any chance? There was a game with Very Hard research/no powerful blesses/no SC pretenders, but come to think of it I'm sure any long length in that one wasn't an accident.
Though, I think just about any MP game has a risk of getting stalemated. There's a VGA Planets game on Planets Nu that's been going on for three years (and still is). I don't recall, from my limited experience of VGA Planets, that it was that prone to stalemates in the first place.
In, re: losing, I'm OK with little comeback in a game if the end comes quick. (M:tG does this well--if you're losing, you're losing soon.) The mechanics of Dominions (i.e. sieges) have ways to prolong the agony. There's still ways to "topdeck" of course.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on December 02, 2016, 03:02:32 pm
Post by: Grek on December 02, 2016, 05:17:05 pm
Sure, the stealth and 40 leadership on Friars is better than the sailing and 10 leadership on Missionaries, but they're still recruit-anywhere H1s to bless your Flagellants. Sure, the Hand of Justice is dreadful, but it's not like you were going to seriously base your bless around expensive the Cap Only units instead of your angels or recruit-literally-anywhere flagellants?
Post by: Cruxador on December 02, 2016, 09:57:29 pm
Probably but for a game that has such a "short" 'finish' it has a long campaign. I'd probably say 5% of the game is the actual "Playing the game" part, with the remaining 95% being clean up and the like.That was true in Dominions 3, but in Dominions 4, if you play with a throne victory (which is pretty close to universal in my experience) it's up to the game admin to make that not the case. Usually it seems to go the other way actually, in my experience, where someone becomes able to throne-rush without necessarily being the strongest. Perhaps this difference in perception is an artifact of who we play with.
And of all the Dominions games this is the one that really COULD have turn around and not bog the game down endlessly.
I agree with the "As long as ya got ya fucking mages, you can still do stuff".Also if you don't have mages, you can sometimes build up enough mages and make enough favorable trades to come back. You won't win without first recouping your losses, in this case, (unless you're so close to winning that it doesn't matter, like if you have an SC marching on each of several thrones) but even then it can be possible to win. The only thing I would say is a "you'll lose for sure now" is when you've lost your capital. Even then it's theoretically possible to win, but I've never seen or heard of it happening.
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PS: Wouldn't it be great to be able to accept puppet states? Then again, anyone who can force 1-2 players to become puppets already has enough magic and troop diversity on the field to defeat nearly any enemy.It would be nice to have some diplomatic mechanisms built into the game, but I think they're really only relevant when dealing with AI. Still, unless you're in a very high level game you'll probably be up against significant AI opponents even in multiplayer, so an option to stop them from being a thorn in your side (by attacking you) without expending the resources to completely annihilate them would be nice. Being able to exact tribute as well would be gravy. For players, those things don't require mechanical recognition, and such a stance would only change what message they get at the end – presumably you'd treat them more kindly when becoming pantokrator.
Was this Forge of Godhood (I think that was it's name?) by any chance? There was a game with Very Hard research/no powerful blesses/no SC pretenders, but come to think of it I'm sure any long length in that one wasn't an accident.I don't remember the name, but looking that one up it doesn't seem to be what I was thinking of. Well, similar things happened more than once in Dominions 3 anyway.
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Though, I think just about any MP game has a risk of getting stalemated. There's a VGA Planets game on Planets Nu that's been going on for three years (and still is). I don't recall, from my limited experience of VGA Planets, that it was that prone to stalemates in the first place.Nothing is immune to stalemates, but Dominions 3 was very prone to it because in the very late game, your production potential was all based on clams of pearls and other stuff that's in the capital, which means that like Byzantium, all non-capital land could ebb and flow and it wouldn't effect you much, except in decreasing the distance that your SCs need to walk before finding enemies to fight.
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In, re: losing, I'm OK with little comeback in a game if the end comes quick. (M:tG does this well--if you're losing, you're losing soon.) The mechanics of Dominions (i.e. sieges) have ways to prolong the agony. There's still ways to "topdeck" of course.Depends on perspective. For me, any time you spend losing is time during which you can avoid the actual loss. In some games that might not be true, but in Dominions it is, even if the turnaround is harder than continuing a victory, though both cases risk loss of momentum. And I tend to enjoy losing because that's when I'm forced to be creative and efficient to the greatest degree. It's not an accident that the games I blog about are the ones I lose, the games I take most seriously are pretty much always ones where I'm in situations that are hard for me, either bad initial luck, particularly strong players as enemies, or most recently using a strategy I had little experience with.
Post by: Neonivek on December 02, 2016, 10:17:46 pm
Mind you, that quickly ends up not being the case.
Post by: Kagus on December 03, 2016, 11:17:11 am
Retreating might have had some defensive/economic advantage if the bulk of the army actually managed to stay somewhat in the same place, but that is absolutely not the case. When someone barrels into an army that has 5 potential provinces to run into, they will run, in equal number, into each and every one of those five provinces. Sure, technically they're still alive, but that division at that time will effectively put them out of the game. Worse, you won't be able to use them in a fight, but you're still paying their wages, the feckin' deserters...
The time it would take to just reassemble everyone would be crippling unless they're just getting picked up coincidentally by some larger plan. And since it could potentially take upwards of a year to get everyone into the same bulk again, but only one month for the enemy army to make another conquest... Yeah. No. Retreat doesn't really help you.
Post by: Frumple on December 03, 2016, 02:08:56 pm
Though do remember, if your split army did enough damage those "deserters" + the PD where they land can slow down, stop, or even just redirect that 1 month advance when the PD alone couldn't, well...
... completely incidentally, can someone remind me how/if that suicide bomb spell works with communions? 'Cause thinking on that I just noticed there's a lot of stuff with cheap 1(S/B), and pheonix pyre is only 2F >_>
Post by: Grek on December 03, 2016, 02:24:34 pm
Post by: Gigalith on December 03, 2016, 03:10:58 pm
EDIT: If an army is scattered by a big rout, can't one usually hire indie commanders in the various provinces? Seems it would be more convenient.
Post by: Frumple on December 03, 2016, 06:45:57 pm
Post by: Cruxador on December 04, 2016, 01:38:09 am
Dominions clearly had an idea that turn around was possible because of retreating (so that even with a bad loss, the bulk of your army could get away).What we're talking about here is more on the strategic scale than tactical. Retreating is supposed to be a bad thing, as it generally was in historical warfare, which is why morale is a positive stat and you're given tools to boost it, not minimize it. There are some exceptions, such as scripting some mage to cast something then retreat, but these are niche cases anyway, and exceptions to the rule.
Mind you, that quickly ends up not being the case.
When someone barrels into an army that has 5 potential provinces to run into, they will run, in equal number, into each and every one of those five provinces.Small note of mechanical clarification, the province is random. That means that for arbitrarily large numbers of units, the amount will become equal, but for practical numbers there will generally be some inequality.
Post by: Neonivek on December 04, 2016, 02:12:12 am
Dominions clearly had an idea that turn around was possible because of retreating (so that even with a bad loss, the bulk of your army could get away).What we're talking about here is more on the strategic scale than tactical. Retreating is supposed to be a bad thing, as it generally was in historical warfare, which is why morale is a positive stat and you're given tools to boost it, not minimize it. There are some exceptions, such as scripting some mage to cast something then retreat, but these are niche cases anyway, and exceptions to the rule.
Mind you, that quickly ends up not being the case.
That is because armies retreated waaaay before they took serious casualties... AND the number of actual casualties in any engagement tended to be small on either side. As well the majority of casualties occurred upon retreat rather than direct engagement.
It is why it was not unheard of for armies to win victories over superior ones simply by not retreating.
Post by: Cruxador on December 04, 2016, 03:14:27 am
This happens in Dominions too. Not with elite troops, but your typical militia will break when they've taken less than 20% damages usually. And it's not at all rare that human chaff will leave before the job is done. If you're playing a nation where your main troops are typical humans, you're likely to be looking for ways to avoid rout, if you don't hold a substantial advantage in other ways.Dominions clearly had an idea that turn around was possible because of retreating (so that even with a bad loss, the bulk of your army could get away).What we're talking about here is more on the strategic scale than tactical. Retreating is supposed to be a bad thing, as it generally was in historical warfare, which is why morale is a positive stat and you're given tools to boost it, not minimize it. There are some exceptions, such as scripting some mage to cast something then retreat, but these are niche cases anyway, and exceptions to the rule.
Mind you, that quickly ends up not being the case.
That is because armies retreated waaaay before they took serious casualties... AND the number of actual casualties in any engagement tended to be small on either side. As well the majority of casualties occurred upon retreat rather than direct engagement.
It is why it was not unheard of for armies to win victories over superior ones simply by not retreating.
Post by: chaoticag on December 04, 2016, 04:31:40 am
Among other things though, the only real example I can think of in which morale played a historical role was during Hannibal Barka's Italy campaign, where he fought alongside his weaker troops to bolster them and have them hold the center while the more elite troops were on the flanks and meant to encircle them. In this case the morale of his worst troops was boosted in order to leverage an advantage he can take, which is about similar to what a dominion player wants to pull off.
So ultimately, why would you want morale as a key component to your army?
1. Stops routing, this is usually the most relevant reason
2. Overcomes fear and awe, prolly not together.
3. Lets your units attack after they've been repelled.
4. Resist seduction attempts.
All in all, it's not bad to have, but it does little on it's own without something to go alongside.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 04, 2016, 08:22:26 am
the only real example I can think of in which morale played a historical roleWas there a single one where it hadn't?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 04, 2016, 09:14:35 am
And every kill/retreating enemy in line of sight gives a moral boost.
________
On that note;
Natural Variation mod - everything is still as it is, just that any static stat can vary up to 2-3 points, i.e. you get 10 human militia, but one has 8 strenght and 14 hp, the other has 12 strenght, 14 hp and 2 less battle movement, etc - so it evens out of the units total stats.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 04, 2016, 09:38:02 am
And every kill/retreating enemy in line of sight gives a moral boost'Hey mister - you're a good person and what you did today was righhh...'
Post by: Shadowlord on December 04, 2016, 01:41:27 pm
Well if anyone is bored, make a "real moral" mod, where everyone has like 6 moral, is affected only by things withhin 3 titles and there are up to 5 levels of retreat, from panic, rout, desperation etc-etc.
And every kill/retreating enemy in line of sight gives a moral boost.
Those are not things that you can do in a Dominions 4 mod (adding units with low morale is one thing, changing the game rules and adding new rules is impossible).
Post by: E. Albright on December 04, 2016, 01:45:25 pm
Small note of mechanical clarification, the province is random. That means that for arbitrarily large numbers of units, the amount will become equal, but for practical numbers there will generally be some inequality.
If we're being nitpicky and mechanical, it's also worth noting that if you were patrolling outside a fort/breaking a siege, there's a 50% chance you'll retreat straight back into the fort before any scattering occurs, and if there's no other friendly province, you all go back into the fort.
Post by: Frumple on December 04, 2016, 02:23:51 pm
Those are not things that you can do in a Dominions 4 mod (adding units with low morale is one thing, changing the game rules and adding new rules is impossible).No, no... you could. It's not impossible. It's just not something that's supported and would take a lot more work than I think anyone's gotten around to putting into modding a dominions game. You'd have to figure out how to crack the game open and mess with its internals, which is something that usually starts at bloody difficult and scales up to and past ridiculous, but it's not strictly impossible.
Plenty of games get modded through straight up screwing with the game's programming instead of messing with available mod tools or whatev'. It's usually half-way or outright illegal (EULA violation, reverse engineering, etc.), but it's something that happens every once in a while. PC equivalent of an ASM hack of an SNES game or whatev'.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 04, 2016, 03:01:27 pm
Those are not things that you can do in a Dominions 4 mod (adding units with low morale is one thing, changing the game rules and adding new rules is impossible).No, no... you could. It's not impossible. It's just not something that's supported and would take a lot more work than I think anyone's gotten around to putting into modding a dominions game. You'd have to figure out how to crack the game open and mess with its internals, which is something that usually starts at bloody difficult and scales up to and past ridiculous, but it's not strictly impossible.
Plenty of games get modded through straight up screwing with the game's programming instead of messing with available mod tools or whatev'. It's usually half-way or outright illegal (EULA violation, reverse engineering, etc.), but it's something that happens every once in a while. PC equivalent of an ASM hack of an SNES game or whatev'.
Oh, sure, I know that. Like you said, Dominions isn't anything anyone has done it for, and as far as I understand it, every time it updated anyone who did make such a mod would have to reverse-engineer it again to find the new locations of the functions they were screwing with etc etc.
People who have actually done it would know more than me (and I know some of them are on these forums, but I don't know who they are). The extent of my beyond-normal-modding in the past has been reading and altering the data stream between client and server games by using a client-side proxy or replacement winsock dll.
Post by: Gigalith on December 04, 2016, 04:26:05 pm
It's also worth mentioning dominions is less true to history and more true to myth. The Dominions Random Number system makes no real sense even if we presume that 30 foot tall fire breathing dragons do exist, it's still possible, no matter how unlikely, to kill that dragon in one hit.
I figure that that's supposed to be the minimal chance that you hit that one dragon in the one place where it had a missing scale and just happened to nick the one artery... (The statistics of said dragon even having such a spot is part of the random chance.)
Post by: Frumple on December 04, 2016, 05:26:22 pm
Post by: Cruxador on December 04, 2016, 05:46:57 pm
It's also how DFhack works.Those are not things that you can do in a Dominions 4 mod (adding units with low morale is one thing, changing the game rules and adding new rules is impossible).No, no... you could. It's not impossible. It's just not something that's supported and would take a lot more work than I think anyone's gotten around to putting into modding a dominions game. You'd have to figure out how to crack the game open and mess with its internals, which is something that usually starts at bloody difficult and scales up to and past ridiculous, but it's not strictly impossible.
Plenty of games get modded through straight up screwing with the game's programming instead of messing with available mod tools or whatev'. It's usually half-way or outright illegal (EULA violation, reverse engineering, etc.), but it's something that happens every once in a while. PC equivalent of an ASM hack of an SNES game or whatev'.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 04, 2016, 07:40:29 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 05, 2016, 08:22:30 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 05, 2016, 09:03:55 am
(if your first question is "if all units are summons how do you start?", then the answer is "don't start with a dormant pretender, as that's your only caster at first")
Post by: Gigalith on December 05, 2016, 09:49:46 am
(if your first question is "if all units are summons how do you start?", then the answer is "don't start with a dormant pretender, as that's your only caster at first")
What do you mean, "pretender?" Obviously, it's your planeswalker you don't want to be dormant. ;D
Post by: Jilladilla on December 05, 2016, 10:11:15 am
(if your first question is "if all units are summons how do you start?", then the answer is "don't start with a dormant pretender, as that's your only caster at first")
You know, a nation can start with a mage as one of their starting commanders... Ermor and Lemuria do it, might be a few others but those two I'm 100% sure of. (That said, no one said the mage has to be powerful, for instance Ermor only gets a D2 mage as a starter, understandable considering how Ermor is, but it's really not enough on it's own. If you do a MtG mod in the mass summon flavor, it is something to consider.)
Post by: chaoticag on December 05, 2016, 12:16:03 pm
Post by: Culise on December 05, 2016, 12:27:22 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 05, 2016, 12:53:54 pm
... I miss that mod, quite a bit. Think I tried to port it once or twice, but can't recall what got in the way (besides competence, anyway).
Post by: E. Albright on December 05, 2016, 01:09:14 pm
Dominions is, as I believe I've said before, the closest anyone's ever come to making an actual MTG TBS.
Enh. You can argue it doesn't closely resemble what MtG has become, but when it was released, Master of Magic was very blatantly, ah, "inspired" by MtG of the time both in terms of lore and more than a few mechanics - moreso IMO than Dom ever has been.
Post by: Cruxador on December 05, 2016, 03:34:56 pm
Alternativly: All the MTG colors (roughly) as nations would be amazing. Sorc/Instants as Spells, Creatures as Creatures..... mhmmThe colors are more like magic paths than nations. Magic paths coupled with moral philosophies, but not nations. The nations of Dominaria and elsewhere would make good Dominions nations, though. Imagine having the Thran in the EA, and then both sides of the Brother's War in MA, and then I don't know, some neowalker stuff in the LA.
Phyrexia is the only nation I can think of with three ages though, EA with Yawgmoth as a mortal preaching phyresis as a philosophy, perhaps before even coming into the plane of Phyrexia itself (actually, accessing Phyrexia could be a national spell a la Steal the Sun maybe) and Phyrexia during the invasion of Dominaria as MA (monoblack, all the good zombie robots we know and love, able to superimpose Rath as a national spell) and then the invasion of Mirrodin bloc as LA.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 06, 2016, 07:18:30 am
Much like MtG certain mechanics would mostly stick to certain colors, like trample to green, flying to white/black etc - Black could even have "cause a affliction" and other effects for most of its damage. Balance would be a bit of a issue - can blue just spam counterspell(s)?
Honestly, I'd just love to see some of the spells in Dominions, like forced evolution where you sac some of your animals/beasts and gain a rando (more expensive) unit for the fight, but lose the permanent...
Dominions needs some battlefield-enchantment-removal anyway.
Post by: Cruxador on December 06, 2016, 09:54:48 pm
Might be better as a stand aloen game, optimally with some build your own planeswalker style (much like pretenders now) - you can water down by going multicolor, but that will denie you access to more powerful creatures - I'd imagine 5 colors being much like allys, power in mass & utility - lands create mana as well as cash, magic sites still exist, but the main mana income is more "fairly" spread out based on terrain.The concept has been done before. It wouldn't have much in common with Dominions though.
Much like MtG certain mechanics would mostly stick to certain colors, like trample to green, flying to white/black etc - Black could even have "cause a affliction" and other effects for most of its damage. Balance would be a bit of a issue - can blue just spam counterspell(s)?
Quote
Honestly, I'd just love to see some of the spells in Dominions, like forced evolution where you sac some of your animals/beasts and gain a rando (more expensive) unit for the fight, but lose the permanent...Both of those aren't really compatible with a battle system that you plan ahead of time.
Dominions needs some battlefield-enchantment-removal anyway.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 07, 2016, 12:55:53 am
The concept has been done before. It wouldn't have much in common with Dominions though.Why not? Dominions is already well underway to being that game. Capture land to gain magic resources, find unique units and effects in specific lands (including a "tap"-like mechanic where you designate a unit to "use" a land's features), summon units and cast overland spells from a wide, color-based variety. Dominions just has strategic, pre-planned combat between big armies instead of the spellfest battles between handfuls of units that MtG does in its format, and with the scripted spells mechanic it's actually not that far off from it. It's well within "fluff it" distance, planeswalkers instead of pretenders, influence instead of dominion, various Dominarian landmarks instead of thrones, etc.
Quote
Both of those aren't really compatible with a battle system that you plan ahead of time.Again, why not? The first is already almost present with the Crossbreeding spell, and you not only have the spell-scripting for the battle phase, but "battle disenchantment" could well be cast by AI easily.
Post by: Gigalith on December 07, 2016, 10:17:31 am
Maybe somewhere above M:tG in complexity, but way below Dominions itself. Although I suppose Magic and Dominions have different sorts of complexity.
Post by: Frumple on December 07, 2016, 08:53:28 pm
... though now I'm thinking of some kind of spell, probably blood, that soaks up a certain number (of gems worth) of battlefield wide (or maybe just buffs, period) persistent effects and then explodes the caster. Maybe an actual explosion, maybe it spawns a higher level horror, maybe it marks and after a certain number of marks triggers the effect (so you couldn't use someone casting the spell very long), something along those lines. Probably have to be fairly high up, magic level wise, just to make sure it's an investment rather than something spew B1 chaff at to shut down enemy casting. It'd be a neat spell.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 09, 2016, 02:47:24 pm
Specifically, I cast it three times. The game reported it was cast three times, and... Nothing else. Nobody appeared where I cast it. No battles.
Maybe scrying on the target provinces would help, information-wise.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 09, 2016, 02:54:33 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 09, 2016, 07:38:37 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on December 10, 2016, 01:50:33 am
Post by: Jilladilla on December 10, 2016, 01:55:43 am
Wind ride will whisk away a random enemy commander as long as it's not above size 3 and not an earth mage, I believe.
Earth magic and large size only provide a resistance to being whisked away, I've had one of Agartha's Oracles taken away by Wind Ride before (Earth 3 (minimum) and size 4). Granted, said Oracle shrugged off quite a few hits of the spell before being blown away so it's really not a valid method of killing them...
Not sure if there is a MR check though.
Post by: Cruxador on December 11, 2016, 03:16:35 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 11, 2016, 09:02:05 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 11, 2016, 10:43:26 am
I'm sure you can come up with some intresting items that reflect certain nations and there lore...
Post by: Gigalith on December 11, 2016, 04:58:24 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 11, 2016, 07:10:56 pm
None that start with them, though, which is a thought. It'd probably be hell and a half to balance for anything outside of fairly specific scenario setups.
As for rag's one, I've forgotten exactly how it works too, but I haven't forgotten it being kinda' useless. Something about the only thing that can equip it just not being very impressive, iirc, or at least not particularly suited to what bonuses the item gives.
Post by: Cruxador on December 11, 2016, 07:46:03 pm
Post by: Jilladilla on December 11, 2016, 08:04:32 pm
There's a small handful of nation locked (ish) items, actually. C'tis has 'em, ferex, and beyond ragha you could make a half-hearted argument that some of the reanimation nations do, too, since the boosting amulets only work for specific corporeal undead (not manikins, not incorporeal ones, etc.). Pretty sure one of the UW nations got some kind of jellyfish stick or somethin' relatively recently. Probably some I'm forgetting, heh.Quite a few. Mictlan has that Blood Sacrifice boosting knife, LA Agartha has Mercury Barrels, Ermor (Zombie Apocalypse Flavor) gets a thing to make their Lictor summons more efficient..... And I'm drawing blanks now, then again it's bed time for me so I'll leave it up to others to finish the list.
Frumple, it's not undead who can reanimate, it's undead PRIESTS who get that ability (In exchange for the normal priestly preaching). Doesn't matter what nation you're playing. (Note that Mound Fiends (Conj. 7 research, D3 caster required) is D3H2, undead, and available to everyone)
Magic items aren't the same as artifacts. Artifacts are Construction 8, and are unique. They are always recovered after combat, however.Argument could be made for Ragha's crown thingie, while it's not at Construction 8, it is unique (although it is always destroyed after being lost rather than always recovered...)
And for Frumples sake, the thing casts Fanaticism and gives a whole lot of leadership (And the +1 morale boost for troops thing) and finally gives +1 to priestly powers, although given that the only units who can use it are only H1, this only really helps for blessings and vs undead...
Now, I'm probably gonna wake up tomorrow and find like 5 errors in this so I'm gonna go to sleep now before I ramble on more to you guys.
Post by: Kagus on December 12, 2016, 04:54:40 pm
On the matter of reanimating, demons also count as "undead" as far as that's concerned. Demonic and undead creatures with holy levels automatically get some form of reanimation, depending on what nation they're serving. I tend to prophetize an Oni general as Yomi specifically so I can get someone to start pumping out a little freespawn.
Also, yeah... You can just go into the mod inspector to see which items are nation-specific, and to which nations they are specific. Jade knife, jellyberd (which is actually pretty damn mean), black laurel etc.
Post by: Jilladilla on December 12, 2016, 06:52:06 pm
You can, however, prophetize a shah and then give him the crown, leading to a level 4 priest. Should you happen to want a level 4 priest, that is.
H4 is actually useful for Fanaticism..... But the Crown already does that... So yeah, don't do that people. (But if you really want to, remember: Prophetize THEN Crown)
Post by: Kagus on December 12, 2016, 08:54:35 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 13, 2016, 12:51:34 am
H4 is actually useful for Fanaticism..... But the Crown already does that... So yeah, don't do that people. (But if you really want to, remember: Prophetize THEN Crown)
The order doesn't matter; the crown is a booster, not an item that increases the actual unit holy level. Prophetizing a shah wearing the crown takes them from H2 to H4.
H4 is also better for preaching.
If you get to the point where you have one of the priest-boosting artifacts, I'd say give it and the crown to a non-prophet shah so they can charitably act as an additional throne-capper (obviously the flappy shah is more useful for this than the six-legged one).
And for Frumples sake, the thing casts Fanaticism and gives a whole lot of leadership (And the +1 morale boost for troops thing) and finally gives +1 to priestly powers, although given that the only units who can use it are only H1, this only really helps for blessings and vs undead...
It's probably also worth mentioning that since the leadership boost is +100 normal (as well as +25 magic and +25 undead), the standard you-get-+1-awe-for-every-100-item-granted-leadership rule is in effect, so the crown also effectively grants +1 Awe.
Post by: Bitoru on December 13, 2016, 12:56:39 am
How do I
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: chaoticag on December 13, 2016, 02:01:01 am
So here's the two big resources I recommend you peek at.
the first is the manual:
http://www.illwinter.com/dom4/manual_dom4.pdf
Even if you read the manual you should have it handy. There's a lot of dense information in there you might otherwise hav missed from playing the game, and sometimes it's easier to understand the manual when you know the game better.
https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/
So you read the manual, and wanna try out a nation? This is the mod inspector to help you scout a nation you wanna play as to see what their national units are like without loading the game and setting a game up. Ever annoyed that you don't have easy access to stats of summoned units? Well, the mod inspector also lists those, as well as all the spells. Same for what paths it takes to magic item.
Next up, when playing the game make sure to hit the ? key. Nearly every screen has some handy shortcuts or outright functions you won't otherwise be able to access. Spell lists too big? Hitting r limits things to ritual spells, c to combat spells, and each path can be filtered down as well, with only one filter at a time I think. Tired of adjusting the amount of research points in a school to get the most out your research? The + and - buttons help out in that regard as well, modifying by the smallest possible increment.
When it comes to the philosophy behind god design, you gotta move from thinking that your nation should serve your god. You only have one god, and they can only be in one place and do one thing. A good god serves their nation instead. Does your nation need a spell they can't normally cast? Good scales to bolster their armies? A bless to make sure you have elite troops? You should be asking those questions and more. (sidenote, mostly mentioning this since the game asks you to design a god before you manage to get a closer look at your nation. Feels like it primes players to think about their god first instead of their nation).
Another thing is get used to analyzing and really thinking about the troops you recruit. What do they do, why are you hiring them. Every troop you recruit is taking up valuable space if you have another option better suited to the task. In fact, the AI in dom4 actively ignores some units because it cannot utilize them well. It's not that shocking if you play a game where you don't recruit a commander or unit in that game ever.
Lastly, if you wanna get better you gotta get to the game and play it. And fail at it. Then learn from those failures. When you learn to play well against the AI consider joining a multiplayer game. Those make you really think about what you are doing.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 13, 2016, 03:17:51 am
playing with someone who knows the game in team games helps, but for me personally it was learning to use turns well (do a lot early game), build a 2nd fort soon, value mages very highly, knowing some of the spells and reading a lot of primers. And losing a lot.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*edit*
Mostly one should aim to get the most value out of any unit and spell in any given situation. Mass protection protects all units, so it is better used on a 200+ Army then with 20 guys. Much of the game is planning and guessing right - can you win this fight? If not, why? If the enemy is just to large, with a set of mages and buffs that make them impossible to defeat? The game allows you to work around that, just ignoring the doom-blob and hitting everything else...
Post by: Neonivek on December 13, 2016, 05:55:42 am
do what someone else does unquestioningly.
Post by: Jilladilla on December 13, 2016, 07:30:52 am
To get good you must do what most people on the internet do...
do what someone else does unquestioningly.
Don't do this. Seriously Don't. There's a time and a place for every strategy, being flexible is better than being rigid.
Now doing what veteran players say to do? It'll help. But never do it unquestioningly.
But all in all, what cag said. You learn far more from a failure than a win in my honest opinion, but still, try going against the AI first a few times, gives you good expansion training (first 12-15 turns or so) and let's you come to terms with the mechanics.
Post by: Cruxador on December 13, 2016, 01:42:17 pm
GuysPlay the game a lot. Do it as different nations. Play multiplayer, and pay attention to what your neighbors are doing. Read guides and AARs. Write your own guides and AARs, explaining everything thoroughly so that you get a better understanding of it for yourself too. For that purpose, I write AARs as I do my turns, and enunciating my thinking helps me think more deeply about it.
How do ISpoiler (click to show/hide)
If the enemy is just to large, with a set of mages and buffs that make them impossible to defeat? The game allows you to work around that, just ignoring the doom-blob and hitting everything else...Size, mages, and buffs aren't going to make it impossible to defeat. For something like that, you can catch it in a defensive trap and use battlefield-wide spells to take everything out at a great price. It's only if the unit stats are also really good that you can't do that, but really good units are also expensive units so the numbers will be lower.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 14, 2016, 03:21:46 am
Sure, but it can be close to (impossible) for your nation in the current situation or plainly not worth it.
We started Round 25 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161886.0) of the Bay12 Dominion Games.
This is a play-by-mail system where various people from the Bay12 community play with and against each other.
Anyone with a forum account is welcome to join. The details of the round will be discussed withhin the thread.
Post by: Frumple on December 14, 2016, 10:13:26 am
... seeding as much of the map as possible with high stealth (servants) bane venom carriers is pretty great, too, when you've got the death access and gems for it. Even if you don't win, if you can make someone else lose it can be a moral victory, heeheehee.
Post by: feelotraveller on December 15, 2016, 10:10:19 pm
Post by: Kazagarth on December 15, 2016, 10:21:06 pm
Just in case anyone is interested Dominions 4 is on sale on Gamersgate for 85% off. https://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM4TA-STEAM/ (http://www.bay12forums.com/DD-DOM4TA-STEAM/) For the next 6 days...
That is an awesome deal.
Is the game worth playing though, if I don't do multiplayer and much prefer singleplayer? I'd probably play for a while, then get a bunch of mods. I know there is a lot of mods to choose from for Dominions 4, and those almost always spruce up the singleplayer experience.
Post by: Frumple on December 15, 2016, 10:41:33 pm
That said, game definitely isn't for everyone, by even the most remote of means. Pretty sure you can search the thread for stuff on that front, it's come up more than once. M'too tired to give it a proper shake at the moment.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 15, 2016, 11:01:34 pm
If you're even slightly ready for MP, well... let's just say the AI isn't going to be that threatening. But that's a high bar even if most players tell you its a low one.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 16, 2016, 05:57:49 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 16, 2016, 01:01:59 pm
I found the UnitGen metamod helped keep Dom3 single-player fresh and interesting. I feel conflicted about being the one to bring up its Dom4 continuation/successor NationGen (https://github.com/elmokki/nationgen), but I do know there are a fair number of people who have said they like it for SP in addition to those who use it for MP, and I can certainly attest that its development is ongoing...
Post by: Cruxador on December 16, 2016, 02:46:02 pm
Is it worth playing, for five bucks? You bet your olives. It's not really better than a typical strategy game, in my opinion, if you only play singleplayer. But it's still well worth the sale price and the time that a couple playthroughs will take.Just in case anyone is interested Dominions 4 is on sale on Gamersgate for 85% off. https://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM4TA-STEAM/ (http://www.bay12forums.com/DD-DOM4TA-STEAM/) For the next 6 days...
That is an awesome deal.
Is the game worth playing though, if I don't do multiplayer and much prefer singleplayer? I'd probably play for a while, then get a bunch of mods. I know there is a lot of mods to choose from for Dominions 4, and those almost always spruce up the singleplayer experience.
The AI has been quietly improving with the assorted patches the game has received, as JK keeps picking away at it.Nationgen is fun to mix things up, but there's enough nations in the base game that you don't really need to add random ones without lore. If you're only playing single player, you're unlikely to play more than a few score games anyway. Another reason I'd put it on par with other good strategy games if only played as single-player.
I found the UnitGen metamod helped keep Dom3 single-player fresh and interesting. I feel conflicted about being the one to bring up its Dom4 continuation/successor NationGen (https://github.com/elmokki/nationgen), but I do know there are a fair number of people who have said they like it for SP in addition to those who use it for MP, and I can certainly attest that its development is ongoing...
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 16, 2016, 03:04:07 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 16, 2016, 04:05:40 pm
Post by: Frank2368 on December 16, 2016, 04:11:18 pm
If I understand correctly this is all done through LlamaServer, if I'm not mistaken? I see the Bay12 game is still waiting for players. Is there any room for a noob? ;D
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 16, 2016, 04:14:34 pm
Damn, I just bought it a few days ago with the 30% off on Steam and I thought I got a good deal. I'm really enjoying it so far and as far as I can tell the devs deserve the money I give them. The mechanics seem well done but I want to try multiplayer.There's ALWAYS room for a noob. ;D
If I understand correctly this is all done through LlamaServer, if I'm not mistaken? I see the Bay12 game is still waiting for players. Is there any room for a noob? ;D
The map's got 11 starts, we have 8 players in, so we technically have room for 3 more. :)
Post by: Cruxador on December 16, 2016, 04:34:54 pm
Damn, I just bought it a few days ago with the 30% off on Steam and I thought I got a good deal. I'm really enjoying it so far and as far as I can tell the devs deserve the money I give them. The mechanics seem well done but I want to try multiplayer.Almost all. People will do direct connect games too, which take about a weekend but usually end because people run out of time to play. There's also blitzserver, which is a newer in-development thing for the game. By newer, I mean it's been around for a year or two, but it's still mostly in testing and refinement rather than general use.
If I understand correctly this is all done through LlamaServer, if I'm not mistaken? I see the Bay12 game is still waiting for players. Is there any room for a noob? ;D
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 16, 2016, 05:34:52 pm
There's also direct multiplay via dropbox and similar solutions. Usually requires an unusually high level of trust between players as it means everybody can technically see and control everybody else's nations (because entering a password every time is tedious). Also everyone can host.Damn, I just bought it a few days ago with the 30% off on Steam and I thought I got a good deal. I'm really enjoying it so far and as far as I can tell the devs deserve the money I give them. The mechanics seem well done but I want to try multiplayer.Almost all. People will do direct connect games too, which take about a weekend but usually end because people run out of time to play. There's also blitzserver, which is a newer in-development thing for the game. By newer, I mean it's been around for a year or two, but it's still mostly in testing and refinement rather than general use.
If I understand correctly this is all done through LlamaServer, if I'm not mistaken? I see the Bay12 game is still waiting for players. Is there any room for a noob? ;D
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 17, 2016, 05:29:12 am
Bay12GamesRound425 (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound425)
we got a slot open, all info in the thread.
###
I successfully forced it on one person, shall see if it sticks.
I found the best advertisement for the game to be the story you can often tell after a game.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 17, 2016, 06:03:18 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Gigalith on December 17, 2016, 03:23:37 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 17, 2016, 03:28:36 pm
Post by: Cruxador on December 18, 2016, 12:59:33 am
When a spell gives an AoE, is it in actual squares? Or is it like AP (two points for orthogonal, three for diagonal.)?Total number of squares, and squares past the first are just randomly attached to one face or other of already placed squares. There aren't shaped templates, and if you throw big blasts at your front lines you're likely to get your own dudes caught in it.
Post by: Kagus on December 18, 2016, 07:38:08 am
That's happened a few more times than necessary.
Post by: Jilladilla on December 18, 2016, 12:44:44 pm
And if you throw a big blast into enemy lines, you're likely to hit every single square except the ones they're actually standing on...And the one square that does have dudes on it are your dudes....
That's happened a few more times than necessary.
(I know your pain...)
Post by: feelotraveller on December 21, 2016, 11:32:29 am
I played a little dom3 in the past and a smidgeon of dom4 at a friends place some time ago but just got the game myself. Playing single player for now. Generally I've never bothered with indies, apart from a few generic commanders mainly for carting reinforcements around (and some jade amazons once upon a time back in dom3...) but I just got an early province in the ring around my capital that has Crystal Sorceresses and Pegasi. Now I plan to build a temple for the Sorceresses (they can bless my sacreds later and command my human troops meantime) but what about the Pegasi, are they worth it? Since it might matter I'm EA Tien Chi so I've got map move 3 flying ceremonial masters which makes them look somewhat more appealing. Thoughts?
But more generally what are the independent troops (and mages too, I guess) that you usually -as opposed to situationally- recruit. I'm thinking here of generically useful ones rather than those that fit niches in case of specialised strategies.
Post by: Frumple on December 21, 2016, 11:45:32 am
Scout provinces are always wonderful, since you can use them to produce scouts without needing to eat up castle time. Priest provinces are a good thing to keep an eye on if you've got anyone leaning undead hordes or heavy dom push. Iirc you can occasionally get elephants and do neat things with them if you can handle the morale issues.
I'm... forgetting a lot, but my bladder is also trying to kill me so I'll leave that there and let other people with a better memory chime in, ehehe.
Post by: E. Albright on December 21, 2016, 11:47:25 am
Post by: Frumple on December 21, 2016, 11:52:56 am
... do slingers still make oddly effective castle breakers?
Post by: E. Albright on December 21, 2016, 12:00:43 pm
Post by: PrimusRibbus on December 21, 2016, 12:28:46 pm
But more generally what are the independent troops (and mages too, I guess) that you usually -as opposed to situationally- recruit. I'm thinking here of generically useful ones rather than those that fit niches in case of specialised strategies.
If you don't have scouts basically everywhere ASAP in an MP game, you're going to be at a major disadvantage. So pump indie scouts all day.
Post by: feelotraveller on December 21, 2016, 02:01:25 pm
Zotz, Raptors, Pale One militia, Horse Tribe/Horse Brother, any archers if they're not resource-heavy and I don't have good national ones (especially crossbows and longbows), lizards, ichtyids with nets, jade/garnet/onyx Amazons as lineholding chaff, bakemono/atavi as concealable bulwarks/raider reinforcements, assorted aquatics if I don't have better and need to get wet (especially Shark Tribe), etc. But it's ALL circumstantial; all of the above are offering specific skills that my national troops may instead offer, depending on the nation...
Thankyou, that's a great help. The Pale Ones just as siegers? Also not sure about the lizards they just seem to die too easy...
More generally, not really looking for archers in my current game but noted. And indie Scouts, of course! (Why did I not mention that?)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 21, 2016, 02:07:27 pm
The Pale Ones are just as siegers, yeah. No Eat and a siege bonus are nothing to sneeze at. They're also pretty strong and relatively cheap, if I remember, which just makes them even better. Of course they can't fight for their lives so they aren't much good after the walls are breached...
Post by: E. Albright on December 21, 2016, 02:35:25 pm
It's also might be worth mentioning that there are a few very uncommon indy poptypes people can go years without ever seeing, but I think if you find yourself e.g. a vaettir-troll province (which I've done... twice?) you'll not need it pointed out that trolls can be useful (if pricey). Oh. And the new-ish Bone Tribe indies aren't bad either. Strong berserkers with medium polearms and javelins? Yeah, I think I can overlook them being undisciplined...
Post by: Neonivek on December 21, 2016, 04:07:12 pm
In that they are a lot less hindered by land then the land races are hindered by water (The game doesn't have the "Poor Amphibian" trait for good at water, bad at land)
Which I guess they desperately need... Though it is odd that their dominion leader can be stuck underwater :P
Post by: Shadowlord on December 21, 2016, 04:28:51 pm
Post by: Kagus on December 21, 2016, 05:08:51 pm
Also, pale ones are not only great at smashing down castles, they're also amazing at holding them. They're strong, have minds, and don't eat supplies, so pound-for-pound they're great defenders (I believe their perception does play a part, slightly reducing their effectiveness) as their awful combat stats are balanced out with great strength for their size and cost, and their mysterious lack of appetite lets them just sit there regardless of what kind of supply stockpile you happen to have.
As for lizards, I've found myself using runners more and more. The stats are fairly similar, with the exception of using a spear instead of a trident, and I think maybe one or two points of health. In return, they get VASTLY improved movement speed, which helps them run under missile fire and get into melee range all the faster, letting their strengths actually get to work. Yes, losing the trident is a shame... But with the bite, the spear and the very decent strength, they're really not half bad.
Also, I've been taking Prod scales with Ur a few times lately, just so I can pump out more units from fortless provinces... Probably a terrible waste, but hey. Same deal with LA T'ien Ch'i and EA Sauromatia, but those also have fort units that are worth recruiting and eat a fair amount of resources, so there's that.
Post by: Jilladilla on December 21, 2016, 06:10:21 pm
Now, REGULAR Pale Ones, yeah, those guys can show up as indies, also remember that Pale One Commanders are excellent troop ferries, having 60 leadership and being cheaper than most commanders.
Pale Ones do also make great chaff if you can throw some protection buffs on them, very gold efficient for their durability then.
(And as for Kagus's comment on Pale Ones 'mysterious lack of appetite', by lore Pale Ones are implied to be related to the Olms (Earth made Flesh's description), and IRL olms, while much smaller than Dom4's Great Olms, can survive for years without food. Granted, it's practically hibernating in order to pull that off, but there is reasoning for it.)
Post by: Mithras on December 21, 2016, 06:42:17 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 21, 2016, 08:38:18 pm
Also, pale ones are not only great at smashing down castles, they're also amazing at holding them. They're strong, have minds, and don't eat supplies, so pound-for-pound they're great defenders (I believe their perception does play a part, slightly reducing their effectiveness)
Nope. Perception is irrelevant; it's all about strength. Well, and flight. And siege/defense bonuses.
Quote from: The manual
Fortresses must be reduced before they can be stormed. To reduce a fortress, its Defense value must be reduced to zero. Each turn, the total reduction strength of the besiegers is compared to the total repair strength of the defenders.
Reduction strength = unit strength squared / 100
● Flying units get +1
Repair strength = unit strength squared / 100
● Flying units get +1
● Mindless units are only worth 10% of calculated value
The difference is subtracted from the fortress defense value if the Reduction strength is greater. If the fortress has been damaged, and the repair strength is greater, the difference is added back to the defense value, to the maximum of the original value.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 21, 2016, 08:39:15 pm
One way or the other UW nations are a MP diplomacy nightmare. On one hand, its incredibly easy in most cases for land factions to keep batting you back into the sea. On the other hand, if you can fight AT ALL as an UW nation, you can pick fights with land nations and when/if they beat you they will get NO reward for their troubles.
Re: perception, I believe that's for patrolling
Post by: Neonivek on December 22, 2016, 01:22:43 am
As long as you can make amulets of the fish, there should be no problem getting aquatic gods, mages, and commanders onto land.
It is more that it is surprising with so few water bound units in a UW nation (or none in a few cases) that their dominion leader is basically trapped down there.
I honestly do wonder how effective some of them are... Like is the Kraken really worth it as a UW super Combatant?
I still remember the last time I tried to do a super combatant run... and I used the White Bull... and died to independents who cast a single ivy arrow... A great god felled low because he has no actual attacks :P
Post by: Shadowlord on December 22, 2016, 04:45:20 am
I'm sure there are other aquatic nations with problems like you've been describing, though. EA R'lyeh comes to mind as probably the worst in the entire game.
That all said, the only water nations I've really played enough (i.e. in a real mp game) to be able to evaluate are EA R'lyeh and MA Ys, and with EA R'lyeh I subbed in for someone else at least halfway through the game.
Post by: Kagus on December 22, 2016, 08:24:36 am
Or rename everything.
As long as you can make amulets of the fish, there should be no problem getting aquatic gods, mages, and commanders onto land.
It is more that it is surprising with so few water bound units in a UW nation (or none in a few cases) that their dominion leader is basically trapped down there.
I honestly do wonder how effective some of them are... Like is the Kraken really worth it as a UW super Combatant?
I still remember the last time I tried to do a super combatant run... and I used the White Bull... and died to independents who cast a single ivy arrow... A great god felled low because he has no actual attacks :P
I'm... Not sure what you're talking about. There are two pretenders that are completely water-bound (three if you include the sphinx's immobility), the other aquatic ones can all use amulets of the fish in order to traipse about on land. And a fair number are amphibious by nature.
And yeah, the kraken is an amazing supercombatant, and since he can crawl up on land with an amulet he can go squiggle about on all the land troops too (and I think his poison ink cloud still works above water, which is... odd). Loads of hitpoints, tons of attacks including that delicious ink cloud, innate fear, and recuperation! What's not to love? Oh, yeah, and 4 hand slots that can wield whatever you might desire.
As for the bull dying, I'm still not entirely sure what you're on about. Even if he were kitted out like a destroyer of worlds, that wouldn't help him while entangled. Also you must've had one damn unlucky arrow for him to get tied up so long... but, hey, that happens. That's why fear/awe are so helpful, *especially* on tramplers.
On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 22, 2016, 08:56:03 am
On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?Siege castles with them.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 22, 2016, 09:59:23 am
On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?Siege castles with them.
Although I have been doing just that, they seem to be kind of bad at it.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 22, 2016, 10:22:05 am
But they are free, and don't need to eat. However terrible they are at sieging by default, they do get a flat bonus to it (and patrolling) because of flying.On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?Siege castles with them.
Although I have been doing just that, they seem to be kind of bad at it.
I don't imagine them being particularly good at anything, though. Not without some kind of high-level force-multiplier magic.
Post by: E. Albright on December 22, 2016, 10:27:02 am
Bishop Fishes are aquatic, but Amulets of the Fish (Const 4, W1A1) give aquatic units the ability to Do Stuff on land.
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww. They have bodies, give them the Shambler Skins they deserve!
Post by: Cruxador on December 24, 2016, 11:15:40 pm
Better: put them in your own castles. Just set a few swan boys to call swans on repeat, and forget about them. Then, by the time someone comes up on that fort, it's all but untakeable.On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?Siege castles with them.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on December 25, 2016, 03:42:04 am
bane venom charm :PBetter: put them in your own castles. Just set a few swan boys to call swans on repeat, and forget about them. Then, by the time someone comes up on that fort, it's all but untakeable.On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?Siege castles with them.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 25, 2016, 03:48:52 am
edit: also, looking at the Inspector confirmed my suspicion. The swans have negative Siege and Patrol bonuses, negating the automatic bonuses to the same from being flying.
Post by: Frumple on December 25, 2016, 06:15:46 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on December 25, 2016, 06:31:31 am
Do garrison units enter battle despite having no commander?
Post by: chaoticag on December 25, 2016, 06:43:48 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 25, 2016, 11:39:48 am
Better: put them in your own castles. Just set a few swan boys to call swans on repeat, and forget about them. Then, by the time someone comes up on that fort, it's all but untakeable.bane venom charm :P
Yup. Ghouls are the best fort-fillers for a reason. In fact, they're quite happy to have some BVCs inside the fort to make sieging it a bit more demanding...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 26, 2016, 01:18:41 am
Nah, there's no limit save whatever conceptual max number of units in play the engine has or whatever logistical bottleneck that may be involved (iirc wolves still need food, ferex). If something like a swan herd or werewolf fills up their command with freespawn, they'll just start dumping the excess into the garrison. I... think it's possible to max out a garrison, but it's going to take multiple hundreds of turns with dozens of callers involved. I don't think I've ever actually managed it in D4. Same dealio with reanimation and longdead or whatev', basically, just a different means of getting the critter.Technically, you can max out a world. Once the unit numbers get sufficiently high the game will start deleting them.
Post by: Kagus on December 26, 2016, 06:42:08 pm
...if there's no fort. If there's a fort, they hide inside unless herded out.Better: put them in your own castles. Just set a few swan boys to call swans on repeat, and forget about them. Then, by the time someone comes up on that fort, it's all but untakeable.bane venom charm :P
Yup. Ghouls are the best fort-fillers for a reason. In fact, they're quite happy to have some BVCs inside the fort to make sieging it a bit more demanding...
Am I the only one who prophetizes an early ghoul commander when playing as LA Ulm, so I can get some freespawn to go with my freespawn?
Also, I wonder if the ghoul guardians actually came about as kind of a reference to players using ghouls for castle defense.
Post by: E. Albright on December 29, 2016, 10:13:21 pm
Spoiler: NationGen 0.6.20 patch, if anyone is interested (click to show/hide)
Post by: Frank2368 on January 04, 2017, 11:35:43 pm
BTW, what happens if two opposing armies move into each other's previous territory? Do they fight or just switch positions?
Post by: cider on January 04, 2017, 11:39:02 pm
Wow, that looks cool. It's kind of awesome how they are able to make the style look so similar to the original game's while being all randomised.
BTW, what happens if two opposing armies move into each other's previous territory? Do they fight or just switch positions?
They fight, unless at least one army is sneaking.
Post by: Culise on January 04, 2017, 11:52:04 pm
Quote from: Dominions 4 manual, page 74
Likewise, if you give an army the order to move into an adjacent enemy province, and on the same turn an army in that province gets the order to move into yours, then one of three things can happen:I assume they'll only miss each other in rough terrain and if the forces involved are small, though; I've personally never actually seen it happen.Which event occurs depends on the size of the armies in question and the terrain involved.
- There is a battle in the enemy province between the two armies;
- There is a battle in your province between the two armies;
- The armies miss one another and exchange places.
Post by: Kagus on January 05, 2017, 06:40:53 pm
So if an Abysian army moves into a province occupied by an army from Man, but the Man army has a move scheduled for a different province, the Abysian army will move first and the Man army will get interrupted and engaged. Likewise, if a Man army is attacking an Abysian army, the Abysian army will get to move first, leaving an empty province for the Man army to march into.
At least, that's what's explained by the manual and the in-game help.
Post by: Culise on January 06, 2017, 01:01:00 am
In fact, it seemed so curious that I thought I'd run a quick test, since it's fairly trivial to set this condition up. Pure vanilla, no mods. Map is Talis, since it's teeny, with Abysia and Man the two players. Pretenders are irrelevant. It took three turns to move both armies into position over the bridge, facing each other. I ran three tests with each, which is far from statistically significant, but I'm lazy that way. :P
Case 1: Abysian army moves into province occupied by army from Man; Man army moves into different (independent) province.
Result 1A: Man's army moves away. Abysia takes undefended province.
Result 1B: Man's army moves away. Abysia takes undefended province.
Result 1C: Man's army moves away. Abysia takes undefended province.
Case 2: Man's army moves into province occupied by army from Abysia; Abysian army moves into different (independent) province.
Result 2A: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
Result 2B: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
Result 2C: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
If someone's more bored than I, they can probably play around with the save (https://www.dropbox.com/s/nuo99zhbmggzx4k/TaliTest.7z?dl=0) as they wish, though I can't imagine why.
EDIT: Struck out a false statement from my own presumptions, but otherwise left it present for posterity. In fact, it doesn't actually matter; if all movement is resolved before all combats except in the case of two armies marching into each other directly, then moving into a friendly or unfriendly province is irrelevant, because it will still be processed before combat begins.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 06, 2017, 03:35:49 am
Interesting. I've never actually heard of moves being run alphabetically. The manual claims turn resolution is simultaneous, and in the case of two armies from different nations entering the province of another nation, it indicates the first army to arrive is determined randomly rather than by alphabet order. Moreover, it indicates that it only determines which army arrives first in the case where three or more sides are present in a province at the end of the turn, and not at the time each movement order is resolved.Not all movement is processed before combat begins.In large part, what the case being described by Abysia and Man relies upon is what sort of province is being targeted for the move by the non-attacking army: friendly or unfriendly.Apropos of the great big turn resolution sequence list, friendly movement is always resolved before regular movement, and all movements are resolved before movement-related battles are processed. After that comes any castle storms, random event battles, battles from magic item/monster effects (Chalice, hi-yo), and discovered sneaks, in that order, and before all of this (even friendly movement) is movement through magical rituals and consequent battles, but that's likely irrelevant.
In fact, it seemed so curious that I thought I'd run a quick test, since it's fairly trivial to set this condition up. Pure vanilla, no mods. Map is Talis, since it's teeny, with Abysia and Man the two players. Pretenders are irrelevant. It took three turns to move both armies into position over the bridge, facing each other. I ran three tests with each, which is far from statistically significant, but I'm lazy that way. :P
Case 1: Abysian army moves into province occupied by army from Man; Man army moves into different (independent) province.
Result 1A: Man's army moves away. Abysia takes undefended province.
Result 1B: Man's army moves away. Abysia takes undefended province.
Result 1C: Man's army moves away. Abysia takes undefended province.
Case 2: Man's army moves into province occupied by army from Abysia; Abysian army moves into different (independent) province.
Result 2A: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
Result 2B: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
Result 2C: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
If someone's more bored than I, they can probably play around with the save (https://www.dropbox.com/s/nuo99zhbmggzx4k/TaliTest.7z?dl=0) as they wish, though I can't imagine why.
EDIT: Struck out a false statement from my own presumptions, but otherwise left it present for posterity. In fact, it doesn't actually matter; if all movement is resolved before all combats except in the case of two armies marching into each other directly, then moving into a friendly or unfriendly province is irrelevant, because it will still be processed before combat begins.
Armies that move between friendly provinces have a high priority, so to speak, perhaps a bonus to the DRN in game terms, in any case they tend to move first and not be interrupted. Armies that attack other provinces though, apparently just roll DRN, maybe modified by army size or move rate or something.
Case in point: this current Bay12 game (round 425) I had a situation where my Pangaean forces were converging from 3 different provinces into one enemy province, to attack the Ulm force there. Ulm was, at the same time, attacking one of those provinces.
Result: Two of my groups attacked an empty (well, full of PD) province that Ulm had just left, and the Ulm army attacked the third group's province, with that group still in it. So the move order was: Ulm (met group #3), Pangaea group #1, Pangaea group #2. Because Ulm got the first move and group #3 probably failed an opposed roll, they did battle on my land, and the other two groups did not encounter them.
Post by: E. Albright on January 06, 2017, 01:54:07 pm
Generally, the smaller army will defend if both move to mirrored provinces, though yes, both can miss each or the larger can defend. This means it's a bad idea to try to converge a number of small forces directly into an enemy province unless you're really sure its occupiers are not going to attack or the likely target of said occupiers has a bigger army attacking during the convergence. And yes, opposed DRN is probably how this is determined; I expect that ties would account for the rare "armies passing".
Post by: Culise on January 06, 2017, 02:12:16 pm
Not all movement is processed before combat begins.First of all, I must preface this with the statement that I am not an expert on the nitty-gritty of the movement or combat systems. However, I'm fairly certain there are no "bonuses" for friendly moves, because there is nothing contested between friendly and other regular movements. They're processed in entirely different phases of the turn resolution process. As such, they don't tend to move first, but rather simply move first. I had not done this originally due to the sheer length of the list and since Kagus was already familiar with it, but since there's apparently some confusion regarding the truncated turn order sequence list I wrote up, I'll post the entire thing. It can also be found on pages 80-83 of the manual, and it is very useful to at least have a familiar passing with.
Armies that move between friendly provinces have a high priority, so to speak, perhaps a bonus to the DRN in game terms, in any case they tend to move first and not be interrupted. Armies that attack other provinces though, apparently just roll DRN, maybe modified by army size or move rate or something.
Case in point: this current Bay12 game (round 425) I had a situation where my Pangaean forces were converging from 3 different provinces into one enemy province, to attack the Ulm force there. Ulm was, at the same time, attacking one of those provinces.
Result: Two of my groups attacked an empty (well, full of PD) province that Ulm had just left, and the Ulm army attacked the third group's province, with that group still in it. So the move order was: Ulm (met group #3), Pangaea group #1, Pangaea group #2. Because Ulm got the first move and group #3 probably failed an opposed roll, they did battle on my land, and the other two groups did not encounter them.
Spoiler: Turn resolution sequence (click to show/hide)
- This is why magical movement and/or remote summons is so effective at stopping raiding parties: rituals for movement or summoning (9) are processed and battles resolved (10) before raiding parties can move (22). Otherwise, you need to guess where the raiding party will attack.
- Reinforcement is highly helpful on the defense, because all friendly moves (21) are conducted before any attacks into unfriendly provinces can occur (22). By the same token, if you're attacking into an area where several large enemy armies are in adjacent provinces, expect the possibility that they may form into a megastack in the face of your attack.
- Related to the above, converging attacks invite defeat in detail, in the case where the "defending" army instead attacks one of your converging forces and wins the DRN check.
- A well-timed assassination (18) can help greatly in regular battles (23).
- Even if your castle walls fall, you still have one turn to lift the siege, as the besiegers can be attacked normally (23) before they storm the castle (24).
- When it comes to fighting in your dominion, dominion changes (6 and 7) are conducted before even the very first battles are calculated (10). This may be helpful if you're operating a combat pretender in particular.
- Starvation, as explicitly noted above, takes place after almost all battles are resolved. On the first turn an army is cut off from supply, it won't suffer effects.
EDIT: And this is essentially as E. Albright succinctly said above. Also, corrected the pages.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on January 06, 2017, 07:34:46 pm
Post by: Culise on January 06, 2017, 08:00:02 pm
But really, if you don't have commanders with food items running around by mid-game, either self-forged or traded for, are you really getting the most out of your doomstacks? :P
EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, I suspect that statements like that actually make it pretty obvious I typically play nations that can recruit better than simple chaff on a large scale. ^_^
Post by: Gigalith on January 06, 2017, 08:24:38 pm
Post by: Kagus on January 06, 2017, 08:41:31 pm
And as for earlier-priority attack events stopping a raiding party, that's either no longer true or there's a special exception in place for the AI. Wasn't that long ago I had an AI army roaming around in my provinces, and I threw some call of x spells at it specifically so that I could hold it in place long enough for my retaliatory force to arrive.
Ritual cast, enemy army was attacked by weak summons that were quickly destroyed, actual army arrives in a vacant province as the enemy force has gone off to take another unprotected province in between those events. So something's definitely fishy.
Also, I am anything but an expert at this game. I've as yet never played so much as a single MP match of it. I just like fiddling with numbers and combos and such...
Post by: Culise on January 06, 2017, 08:59:43 pm
Odd, maybe they managed to work that out earlier in the series. I do definitely recall there being a mention of nation-specific turn priority.You need to drop enough forces on it in the ritual spell phase to actually defeat it or at least eliminate its commanders if you decide to use that technique; if it reaches the movement phase, those commanders able to do so will follow their movement orders. An attack in itself is not adequate to stop a movement order. Assassinating commanders works: Mind Hunt, Earth Attack, even Seeking Arrow or Wind Ride in a pinch. Unled troops won't obey movement orders, after all. Better still to drop an entire army on top of them, though: Astral Travel is expensive; Stygian Paths can be risky; Faery Trod can sometimes miss; but Cloud Trapeze is kind of a tradition for anything that can create an A2 thug or SC (Elemental Queens, ahoy) or, less commonly, Teleport for S3s. As such, it's not an option available to all nations.
And as for earlier-priority attack events stopping a raiding party, that's either no longer true or there's a special exception in place for the AI. Wasn't that long ago I had an AI army roaming around in my provinces, and I threw some call of x spells at it specifically so that I could hold it in place long enough for my retaliatory force to arrive.
Ritual cast, enemy army was attacked by weak summons that were quickly destroyed, actual army arrives in a vacant province as the enemy force has gone off to take another unprotected province in between those events. So something's definitely fishy.
Also, I am anything but an expert at this game. I've as yet never played so much as a single MP match of it. I just like fiddling with numbers and combos and such...
Post by: chaoticag on January 06, 2017, 09:00:45 pm
I'll also say give the multiplayer a shot sometime, since I more or less stuck with singleplayer for the longest while, but I end up feeling there is a lot more depth that is brought out by human opponents, and drama, but the good kind, heh.
Not that a army in dominions can ever be "cut off" from supply (unless you got a commander with food items running around?) - supply lines would've been nice, with "Logistics" as a commander skill that sucks up supplys just like "administrator" does with castles, from provinces near him, with "well feed" armys (2x there supplys needs) getting more moral or something like that.
Fortresses do increase supply in relatively near provinces (maximum distance of four) based on Administration. I don't know how meaningful that is, but I suppose it can't hurt.Baring access to supply items like endless bags of wine, a fortress is a valid way of making sure you can strike into 0 pop provinces. Supply also goes down during sieges, so there is in a sense supply lines, but they're also closer to ancient and medievel supply lines, more disorganized. Don't forget that part of supply is getting the resources and gold, and you can cut off provinces from a fortress as well.
Post by: Kagus on January 06, 2017, 09:18:19 pm
Well, that makes the raiding forces even more amazingly annoying...
Post by: chaoticag on January 06, 2017, 10:52:57 pm
Post by: Gigalith on January 07, 2017, 12:08:48 pm
I did tons of raiding as Xibalba last game, but part of that is that between stealth, flying, and cheap units there was really no place I couldn't/wouldn't raid with my bats. But having played Xibalba, you kinda have to do it, since it's one of their main strengths.
Post by: Jilladilla on January 07, 2017, 12:32:22 pm
I did tons of raiding as Xibalba last game, but part of that is that between stealth, flying, and cheap units there was really no place I couldn't/wouldn't raid with my bats. But having played Xibalba, you kinda have to do it, since it's one of their main strengths.
There is a good question there though, what are you supposed to do against organized resistance as LA Xibalba? EA Xibalba can summon the flying demon cats easily enough (Those things are scary with a heavy bless...), but LA Xib has far too many difficulties getting Fire/Blood mages to make that viable... (Don't you dare say just find a Garnet Amazon province! Those are RARE AS HECK!)
Raiding is good and all, but it won't win wars by itself...
Post by: Gigalith on January 07, 2017, 01:03:03 pm
It's possible a more skilled player would have found an better way to fight conventional wars. Or just one who took an alternate strategy. I barely touched the frogs, for example, let alone the sacred ones.
Post by: Cruxador on January 07, 2017, 03:18:53 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 07, 2017, 03:39:16 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on January 07, 2017, 03:58:25 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 07, 2017, 04:22:14 pm
Not that a army in dominions can ever be "cut off" from supply (unless you got a commander with food items running around?) - supply lines would've been nice, with "Logistics" as a commander skill that sucks up supplys just like "administrator" does with castles, from provinces near him, with "well feed" armys (2x there supplys needs) getting more moral or something like that.Forts raise supply in nearby provinces, so if your army is too large to live off the land then yeah you can get cut off from supply and starve. Unfortunately starvation itself is kinda an odd mechanic (IIRC it prefers giving units afflictions to actually killing them?)
If an army has to retreat and there's no where to go to they all die, which is powerful because often the last survivors of a battle are the mages; AKA the most/only important part of an army. Unfortunately the way Dominions works its a lot easier to do this is a cheese strategy with magic or stealth than it is to encircle an enemy proper. Super satisfying if you can pull it off regardless.
Post by: Kagus on January 07, 2017, 04:36:12 pm
So does Awe and Fear stack?
Awe takes effect whenever an attacking unit fails a morale check, and Fear reduces the morale of nearby units. So, in a sense, they do work together(fear will make nearby units more susceptible to having their attacks blocked by Awe), but do they stack? Kind of a weird way of putting it. It's more just that they synergize really well.
Unfortunately starvation itself is kinda an odd mechanic (IIRC it prefers giving units afflictions to actually killing them?)
It's a major penalty to morale, and has a high chance of giving afflictions, yes... I think it's even specifically weighted towards causing Disease, which itself is a fatal condition unless treated in some way.
So, no, starvation won't smite down your foes in any quick fashion by itself... But it will make the enemy's units all but worthless in battle, as well as the logistics nightmare of wounds and disease running rampant through your troops.
Post by: a1s on January 09, 2017, 06:53:06 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 09, 2017, 06:55:41 pm
In it there are two effects that are basically exactly the same... But they give one to the "Good guys" and another to "The Bad Guys" and they basically do the same thing... enemies need to pass a will/morale test to even attack.
Well mind you... it wasn't for "Good guy, bad guy" flavoring. So much that it wanted to separate the difference between someone blinding you with divine reverence and someone making you poop your pants in terror.
Post by: chaoticag on January 09, 2017, 07:15:33 pm
So, are there any plans to run a game in the near future? I haven't had my ass kicked by competent (i.e. human) players in over a year, and I'm starting to miss it.One is currently running. 30 turns in at standard research, when it's over likely another will start I think.
Post by: E. Albright on January 09, 2017, 08:57:07 pm
Post by: RexMundi on January 09, 2017, 09:49:19 pm
Post by: a1s on January 10, 2017, 05:55:12 am
Post by: Kagus on January 10, 2017, 10:29:14 am
Post by: E. Albright on January 10, 2017, 03:10:01 pm
(And done (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162258.0).)
Post by: sum1won on January 11, 2017, 11:30:52 pm
Post by: Jilladilla on January 14, 2017, 05:24:20 pm
Passing along that I am attempting to revive community clash in a somewhat more organized fashion. That is to say, I actually secured a working server option and obtained semi-delivery of a map before making a post. Post is on dom4mods if the team here is interested in signing up again.
Trying to pull the team for this back together, but only one other person replied, so as such if you feel up to the task of representing the glorious community of the Twelfth Bay, send me a PM.
Post by: Frank2368 on January 14, 2017, 11:12:52 pm
...I'll go ahead and get a post up for interest/planning/scheming...
(And done (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162258.0).)
Are the the developer for NationGen? Just wondering.
Post by: E. Albright on January 15, 2017, 03:55:35 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on January 16, 2017, 10:42:32 am
Post by: E. Albright on January 16, 2017, 10:56:19 am
Post by: Jilladilla on January 19, 2017, 01:54:18 am
Passing along that I am attempting to revive community clash in a somewhat more organized fashion. That is to say, I actually secured a working server option and obtained semi-delivery of a map before making a post. Post is on dom4mods if the team here is interested in signing up again.
Trying to pull the team for this back together, but only one other person replied, so as such if you feel up to the task of representing the glorious community of the Twelfth Bay, send me a PM.
I know this is likely redundant, but Bay12 could still use another member for the Community Clash! Time's running out on sign-ups, so if you feel up for it, send me a PM!
Post by: chaoticag on January 25, 2017, 02:37:47 am
Post by: Frumple on January 25, 2017, 11:12:05 am
The invision board (the arguably main mod board, with desura gone) might have a duplicate of the guide, too.
Post by: Cruxador on February 12, 2017, 10:22:52 pm
This one's gimmick is that we're doing some light roleplaying and staying in-character for diplomacy and other in-game messages.
Post by: Frumple on February 12, 2017, 10:34:57 pm
Post by: RexMundi on February 12, 2017, 10:36:44 pm
I'm blogging another multiplayer game. (http://"https://cruxador.wordpress.com/category/aar/autisticrpgame/")Link didn't work, might wanna check it. Found the blog though, looks neat.
This one's gimmick is that we're doing some light roleplaying and staying in-character for diplomacy and other in-game messages.
Post by: Cruxador on February 13, 2017, 02:17:55 am
Eesh, good luck. I seem to remember half-heartedly trying that at one point and it made communication just kinda' miserable, particularly on the time investment front. Fun to indulge sporadically, but less so consistently and especially as the game gets later into the play session, heh.Yeah, it gets more casual as the game goes on.
Mixed up the code format with some other forum software, I suppose. Fixed now.I'm blogging another multiplayer game. (http://"https://cruxador.wordpress.com/category/aar/autisticrpgame/")Link didn't work, might wanna check it. Found the blog though, looks neat.
This one's gimmick is that we're doing some light roleplaying and staying in-character for diplomacy and other in-game messages.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 13, 2017, 04:45:10 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: AlStar on February 13, 2017, 11:34:33 am
10 gold for a 20 strength, 13 attack skill unit with 53 HP and two attacks (fists though they may be)? Yeah, I could make that work. Cast some protection magic on them and you're good to go.
Post by: Kagus on February 13, 2017, 12:53:55 pm
Also, yeah, that particular instance is just unfortunate shading in regards to his happy trail... Not that the Dom4 devs have ever shyed away from putting a penis on something.
Post by: E. Albright on February 13, 2017, 05:56:47 pm
1) The bug making those cost 10g instead of 100g has been fixed, so they'll be less absurdly priced next patch.
1a) Those don't have 50 (or even 30) morale, so they can rout, with predictably unfortunate results for their comparatively-petite kinfolk (aka hoburg poppers)...
2) While in broad terms I'm no more reluctant to promulgate sprite nudity than KO, I can assure you that in this case it's all unfortunate shading.
Post by: Cruxador on February 14, 2017, 02:26:00 am
Two things:They're a good deal at 100g, and 14 morale isn't terrible, by the time they rout you've probably lost anyway. It's potentially costly if they run over some major mage support, but it's not nearly as bad as with, say, war elephants. And those cost the same as this guy.
1) The bug making those cost 10g instead of 100g has been fixed, so they'll be less absurdly priced next patch.
1a) Those don't have 50 (or even 30) morale, so they can rout, with predictably unfortunate results for their comparatively-petite kinfolk (aka hoburg poppers)...
2) While in broad terms I'm no more reluctant to promulgate sprite nudity than KO, I can assure you that in this case it's all unfortunate shading.
Post by: chaoticag on February 14, 2017, 02:38:08 am
Post by: E. Albright on February 14, 2017, 02:57:45 am
Having said that, even if they cost what they're supposed to, I have no idea if they're actually balanced. Which is pretty normal when random new filth gets added to NG...
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 14, 2017, 04:10:23 am
nationgen_0.6.21c was used for them
Post by: Cruxador on February 14, 2017, 12:02:57 pm
With low protection they tend to lose limbs fast, but whatever, right?If you have any E access and you've got these guys, you should probably be rushing Alteration for iron warriors/marble warriors/army of foo and give them good protection on top of their other benefits as soon as reasonably possible. Even if you don't, if you have other reasons to go into Alteration it might be worth taking some E on your pretender so you can throw that stuff up on major armies later, especially if you have sacred mages or troops that would like a Ex bless anyway.
Post by: Gigalith on February 20, 2017, 02:50:30 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 20, 2017, 06:43:05 pm
Map: Dawn of Bridges v3 (http://www.moddb.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/addons/dawn-of-bridges)
Thread: Bay425 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161886.0)
Atlantis is "sorta" ok, with 1 fort lost (out of 4) and the game is in the intresting point where you might not be able to win, but you can certainly influence who will win.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 03, 2017, 07:19:59 am
I did some testing with "Wind of Death" and dear god is it effective - a single caster with 10-ish bodyguards (That start away from the caster to draw arrows) casting it once, then waiting 4 turns before retreating.
- all humans died (max age 50, starting around 20-30 usually)
- Even the pale ones (max age 400 start 150) died, but it was very strange - the all aged 5 years/turn, about 80 total on average, but on the very last tick, when the battle ends - all affected just died. With well up to 180 years left before max age, all of them died in the same turn. That might be a bit of a bug in action there, then again "Death is the only cure" - no wonder it was so effective at stoping the Boar-invasion back then.
Before and After Screenshot
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
With actual mag-pen boosters 1 mage vs 450 - 350 dead
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just for funnyzs I died another test, 2x Earthquake and 1x Rain of Stone and 3 extra casters (plus a small army) - killed about 272 of 484.
Well thankfully it is a high level research goal.
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2017, 11:31:59 am
...yes, I have the best tactics.
Post by: AlStar on March 03, 2017, 11:42:10 am
I need to cast Sea Dogs, GoR one of them, and name it Scuba Duu.I occasionally have similar thoughts about GoR'ing a deer or something equally silly and making it my prophet... just 'cause.
...yes, I have the best tactics.
Post by: Frumple on March 03, 2017, 11:52:55 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 03, 2017, 12:09:38 pm
Think... what, tiniest scorpions are the smallest thing you can get outside battle? That'd be the target. Your entire religion hanging off the words of a bug smaller than your hand.You can polymorph a mage into a dragonfly.
Post by: Frumple on March 03, 2017, 12:32:53 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 03, 2017, 01:30:56 pm
That might be a bit of a bug in action there, then again "Death is the only cure" - no wonder it was so effective at stoping the Boar-invasion back then.
Decay doesn't stop just because the battle stops. It's much the same as how the battle ending can still mean death from poison, bleeding, or burning.
Post by: Jilladilla on March 03, 2017, 02:23:00 pm
That might be a bit of a bug in action there, then again "Death is the only cure" - no wonder it was so effective at stoping the Boar-invasion back then.
Decay doesn't stop just because the battle stops. It's much the same as how the battle ending can still mean death from poison, bleeding, or burning.
I think he was talking about how the Pale Ones just suddenly keeled over despite having well over a hundred years until old age?
But yeah, Wind of Death can be scarily effective (if slow acting), if you fear for it, turn 1 Antimagic helps a ton (As it is a MR resists easily spell)
(The one time I really used it was against one of Thtbloves swarms of B9D9N9 blessed Great Boars... It was beautiful.)
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2017, 03:32:30 pm
Also, now I need to make a Nyorai pretender named "I Can't Believe It's Not Buddha!". Fuck all of you.
Post by: Frumple on March 03, 2017, 03:35:47 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on March 03, 2017, 03:49:18 pm
The Wicked Witch of the West (EA Xibalba)
The Ghost of Mr. Burns (EA Xibalba)
The Other Drowned God (EA R'lyeh)
Namwons Eht Ytsorf (MA Caelum - that's Frosty The Snowman, backwards)
Poseidonteven (MA Oceania)
Free Drinks (LA Ulm, a blood fountain)
The one I used in the Bay12 EA game where I played EA Xibalba was named "Tora no Kagitsume", which means Tiger's Claw (or claws), and is a disguised reference to the TCS Tiger's Claw in Wing Commander
Post by: Gigalith on March 04, 2017, 12:35:08 pm
Post by: George_Chickens on March 04, 2017, 01:02:55 pm
Post by: Frumple on March 04, 2017, 01:11:18 pm
Post by: AlStar on March 04, 2017, 10:49:08 pm
I wish Dominions wasn't so damn expensive. I'd be buying copies for all of my friends if each of them didn't cost almost 50 Australian dollars.https://steamdb.info/app/259060/ shows that the game's had as high as a 75% discount (although those are just single day deals), but 40% and 60% deals look like they come around decently often.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 09, 2017, 05:00:05 am
Looking for a replacement for Scaleria in Bay425
It is in a great place, 20-25 ish provinces, armys with a headcount of 1000 undead or so and a about equally sized enemy, afaik.
Info:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: chaoticag on March 09, 2017, 05:53:37 am
Post by: George_Chickens on March 09, 2017, 10:00:20 pm
Post by: Frumple on March 09, 2017, 10:08:48 pm
Post by: George_Chickens on March 09, 2017, 10:10:21 pm
Anyway, does anyone here have any good strategies for dealing with Ulm? My friends and I have been co-op'ing against the AI (not enough players for a decent free for all), and by the time we get to Ulm, assuming the AI hasn't already destroyed them, they often have armies involving 200+ black plate armour soldiers and close to (occasionally over) 1000 men in their doomstacks. I'm just not sure how to deal with that when our footsoldiers can't compete with them 1v1, neither outnumber them.
Post by: Frumple on March 09, 2017, 10:23:41 pm
Alternately find something that can tank 'em and get cho SC on.
Post by: George_Chickens on March 09, 2017, 10:30:27 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 09, 2017, 10:39:09 pm
Anyway, does anyone here have any good strategies for dealing with Ulm? My friends and I have been co-op'ing against the AI (not enough players for a decent free for all), and by the time we get to Ulm, assuming the AI hasn't already destroyed them, they often have armies involving 200+ black plate armour soldiers and close to (occasionally over) 1000 men in their doomstacks. I'm just not sure how to deal with that when our footsoldiers can't compete with them 1v1, neither outnumber them.
Magic. Magic is always the answer, especially against the AI. Look for spells which reduce or bypass their amour completely. Iron Bane is the obvious answer but might not be the best. It makes all iron armour rusty and break after a single attack. The problem is that against 1000 men doomstacks, you could easily run out of troops before they do since Iron Bane affects your own units as well.
Alternatively 1000 men is a massive army and will eat a lot of supplies. I'm not sure if the AI is smart enough to use Bags of Wine and the like to solve supply issues, so luring the doomstack to some low supply provinces to weaken them might work. A bunch of wastelands and the like to wrack up those afflictions and maluses before you strike.
Fatigue it'll have to be. Thank you! I tried doing a spear/shield wall as Abysia, but my 300ish troops would always get surrounded and slaughtered by the thousands of Ulmdudes.
Ah. As Abysia just toss as many fireballs into them and call it a day, maybe throw in some Falling Fires and what not. Something with good AoE that causes fatigue. Heat from Hell is a good battlefield-wide spell to cast but you might not have the research to do so, especially as MA Abysia. Summoning some Fire Elementals might be helpful too, since they're ethereal and help spread the heat around.
Anything that does fatigue? Or armor piercing/ignoring damage en masse. They're still humans, which means they're squishy if you can get through or bypass the armor, and they're mostly high encumbrance so if you can get your fatigue rolling they start dying easy.
MA Ulm's units are surprisingly light on the Encumbrance, actually. Their guys start off at a base of 2 (1 less than normal humans) and Ulmish armour offers a ton of protection for their weight. We're talking 5~6 Encumbrance for the dudes without tower shields and 7~8 for the dudes with. Definitely not lightweight but not ridiculous either. Not!Roman legionaries get around 7 encumbrance for much less protection for comparison.
Mind you, fatigue stacking is still perfectly viable. And definitely a good idea against swarms of enemies controlled by the AI. Just not as super effective against MA Ulm as it used to be, that's all.
Post by: Frumple on March 09, 2017, 10:42:12 pm
Though yeah, magic definitely works. Fireballs everywhere.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 10, 2017, 01:53:46 am
Post by: Radsoc on March 15, 2017, 06:49:52 am
If I have a crystal matrix on a mage X, will he be able to establish a communion even if he isn't astral?
Does it matter if slaves are casting their slave spell before or after X? I take it, the battle turn order follows the army list order?
I want to cast a level 5, three gem, spell on turn 1, X is currently level 3. If I have four slaves, I should be able to get to level 5 immediately, and cast it at a cost of three gems, right? If I have two slaves, X will be level 4, and needs 3+1 gems to cast the same spell?
Additionally, the slaves don't have the path of what is cast. Will X still get a level up in that path? How will it affect fatigue? In the battle spell queue, the spell I want to cast is greyed out, it doesn't seem to consider slave spells? What are the benefits of using a slave matrix instead? Less fatigue? Spell will get ungreyed in the battle spell queue?
Post by: George_Chickens on March 15, 2017, 07:32:33 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 15, 2017, 07:46:28 am
If I have a crystal matrix on a mage X, will he be able to establish a communion even if he isn't astral?
The crystal/slave matrix automatically casts Communion Master/Slave at the start of battle (before turn 1 in fact), so the holder's paths are irrelevant. They could be some super wizard, lowly pencil pusher or indy priest. They'll still be part of the communion.
Does it matter if slaves are casting their slave spell before or after X? I take it, the battle turn order follows the army list order?
Since Reverse Communions are no longer a thing, it only matters on the first turn. Obviously they need to cast Communion Slave to actually join it, so if you want to pump out a high-level spell on turn 1 they need to be before the Master in the list order or holding slave matrices. After that their army list order doesn't matter anymore. They'll just stand around and contribute no matter what.
I want to cast a level 5, three gem, spell on turn 1, X is currently level 3. If I have four slaves, I should be able to get to level 5 immediately, and cast it at a cost of three gems, right? If I have two slaves, X will be level 4, and needs 3+1 gems to cast the same spell?
I'm 60% certain that the master still counts as having level 3 magic and so can only use 3 gems total. Only 60% certain. It's definitely something you should test in a separate game, just to be sure.
Additionally, the slaves don't have the path of what is cast. Will X still get a level up in that path? How will it affect fatigue? In the battle spell queue, the spell I want to cast is greyed out, it doesn't seem to consider slave spells? What are the benefits of using a slave matrix instead? Less fatigue? Spell will get ungreyed in the battle spell queue?
The paths of the slaves only matter for reducing the amount of fatigue which they get, which can also be reduced with buffs or simply more communion slaves. The bonus from a communion affects all the paths which the master has, regardless of what the slaves have.
The spell is greyed out because the game doesn't know how big your communion will be when you actually cast it. As long as your paths are high enough during the battle your master should cast the spell. But there's also the possibility that they'll get ganked before then. Hence why it's grey.
The benefits of a slave matrix is the ability to cast the spell before battle starts and enabling non astral mages to be slaves. Neither of which are particularly worth the cost of a slave matrix. Getting a massive spell off on the first turn could be worthwhile, but you can achieve the same thing by using a crystal matrix and picking a master below all of the slaves in the turn order.
I'd like to know what the deal with communions is anyway. I'm not a very frequent player.
It makes a bunch of slaves stand around doing nothing, in return for a magic path boost for the masters and fatigue being spread around all participants. So it's good for getting high-level spells out or spamming mid-level ones all day. The path boost is log base 2 (ie: 2 slaves for 1 level boost, 4 for 2, 8 for 3, etc) but the fatigue spreading is not.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 15, 2017, 07:58:46 am
Post by: Radsoc on March 15, 2017, 08:47:38 am
I like how intricate the rules of the game are, and how you need to go back to them to see if ideas are workable. The amount of spells, units and tactics combinations create a complexity that allows for quite creative play.
Post by: George_Chickens on March 15, 2017, 09:01:38 am
Exactly what I wanted to know, thank you!LESS PLANNING, MORE SHIELD WALLS!
I like how intricate the rules of the game are, and how you need to go back to them to see if ideas are workable. The amount of spells, units and tactics combinations create a complexity that allows for quite creative play.
Post by: Cruxador on March 15, 2017, 11:20:19 am
The one thing I find most annoying with the communions mechanic, is that it's impossible to use it for ritual spells, despite the "bunch of mages pooling their magic together to work a ritual for X amount of time" thing being a staple of basically any kind of fantasy-fiction.Because getting unlimited paths in combat is a useful strategy to win fights, but getting it for rituals would mean that you'd need a way to build communions as every nation you play, pretty much, to unlock those big game-changing globals.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 15, 2017, 11:34:09 am
Ritual mages could collaborate without the communion spell. Just, say, three level 1 mages to cast a level 2 spell, three level 2s (or nine level 1s) to cast a level 3 spell, etc. Maybe make every additional caster cost an extra gem to prevent abuse with low-level summoning spells. Rapid aging could be a thing as well since mages are channeling power above their individual level, or it could be an intrinsic ability of some nation's mages to circumvent the extra gem cost. It could work.The one thing I find most annoying with the communions mechanic, is that it's impossible to use it for ritual spells, despite the "bunch of mages pooling their magic together to work a ritual for X amount of time" thing being a staple of basically any kind of fantasy-fiction.Because getting unlimited paths in combat is a useful strategy to win fights, but getting it for rituals would mean that you'd need a way to build communions as every nation you play, pretty much, to unlock those big game-changing globals.
Post by: Frumple on March 15, 2017, 12:11:54 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 15, 2017, 02:36:23 pm
I'd like to know what the deal with communions is anyway. I'm not a very frequent player.
It makes a bunch of slaves stand around doing nothing, in return for a magic path boost for the masters and fatigue being spread around all participants. So it's good for getting high-level spells out or spamming mid-level ones all day. The path boost is log base 2 (ie: 2 slaves for 1 level boost, 4 for 2, 8 for 3, etc) but the fatigue spreading is not.
It also lets you sling around personal buff spells to people who didn't/can't cast them; if any communion master casts a caster-only buff, all slaves receive it. This is less useful since reverse communions were gotten rid of with the release of Dom4, but it's still worth remembering, and in certain circumstances is still useful for tricksy tricks.
Post by: Gigalith on March 15, 2017, 05:47:04 pm
(Headcannon: that's why communions don't work for rituals. It's just too difficult to coordinate a bunch of wizards for the time necessary/it's impossible to detach them post-ritual.)
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 15, 2017, 06:21:28 pm
1 specifically trained human can build a pc
500 untrained monkeys can't
Same applies to magic.
Post by: Frumple on March 15, 2017, 06:28:10 pm
... also it's a really bad analogy to use regarding Dom 4. The demon apes may become unamused.
Post by: Kagus on March 15, 2017, 08:04:18 pm
If the communion slaves are paralyzed and incapable of doing anything, as they are on the battle map, then that would mean a month without eating, drinking, sleeping, or in any way taking care of themselves. They would almost certainly die in short order, likely before the ritual was complete.
...mind, that argument is completely invalidated by lifeless communion slaves, and also the mage performing the ritual clearly takes pee breaks themselves during the casting or else they'd die too. Really it's just a matter of balance, because if you could use communions to boost rituals the way you can boost combat magic, we'd see 80gp yogis banding together with their friends and casting Wish, and it would also pretty much remove any need for expensive old-age mages who generally have the paths necessary to get boosted up to usable levels via items.
On another topic entirely, does casting Twiceborn on a zamzummite let them return after performing a banquet for the dead? I remember someone talking about having prophetized a demilich and then just having the ancient heroes eat its leathery, dusty corpse repeatedly as it kept reincarnating; but that's a rather massive investment for an already-expensive spell.
Post by: George_Chickens on March 16, 2017, 01:06:09 am
If the communion slaves are paralyzed and incapable of doing anything, as they are on the battle map, then that would mean a month without eating, drinking, sleeping, or in any way taking care of themselves. They would almost certainly die in short order, likely before the ritual was complete.Couldn't you just get your soldiers to feed them like a bird does to its babies?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 16, 2017, 04:01:18 am
In my mind, a good first step to balancing would be not making it work like communions, maybe exactly because of the lethality thing, since a communion-slaved caster would die before the ritual completes. You'd instead have a simple formula where three casters of a certain path level are equivalent to one caster of a path level one higher. Nine casters of that path level equivalent to one caster two path levels higher, twenty-seven for three levels higher, and so on. It's a simple system to let you jump up a casting level or two when you're really magic-locked, like when you're LA Man and only have the occasional D1 Judge, without a good supply of death gems to waste on empowering and the Bean Sidhe lottery.
Post by: Gigalith on March 16, 2017, 03:31:08 pm
But then we have magic boosters. Actually, same thing. Why can't an UW mage cast Summon Waterpower before casting a ritual? Again, it wouldn't necessarily give you the skill at the logistical end. But in combat, raw power is a perfectly fine substitute for finesse.
EDIT: But rather than communions, it does seem weird to me that every ritual requires _exactly one_ mage. I'd think it be interesting (except balance, complexity, time coding) if rituals automatically required different mages of different skills. I.e. ten S1 mages, five W5 mages, and one W5 mage to cast some S/W mega-ritual. But it does sorta work currently, in that the ultra-high-power rituals require the power of a literal god and lower magic could really be handled by a lone mage.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 16, 2017, 04:08:02 pm
Post by: Frank2368 on March 19, 2017, 02:52:41 pm
Post by: Radsoc on March 20, 2017, 08:49:42 am
I have a F2 mage. I want to cast Flaming Arrows on turn 1.
To me it seems like I have to cast Phoenix Power first F2-F3, and then temp spend 1 gem to get to F4 and then use another gem to cast the spell (cost 1). So:
Phoenix Power (turn 1)
Flaming Arrows (turn 2) @ 2 gems (which is max spend at level 2).
However, for some reason Flaming Arrows is available/white in my spell queue if I use it on t1. Must be wrong? I shouldn't trust it?
What happens if he can't cast it? Will he proceed with the list?
Would it be safe to script:
1. Flaming Arrows
2. Phoenix Power
3. Flaming Arrows
?
Furthermore, what happens if I have two communion masters and six slaves. Will the slaves be distributed according to army order?
4 slaves
1 master
2 slaves
1 master
Or will there be a random distribution?
In this case
6 slaves
1 master
1 master
Will the first master use all slaves and the second one zero?
Post by: Gigalith on March 20, 2017, 10:07:00 am
All communion/sabbath mages in an army are in one communion. Any master will use all the slaves, regardless of other masters, what spell (communion/sabbath) was cast, or when any particular mage joined in. The good news is that you can reuse slaves for a massive boost to multiple masters. The bad news is that each of those masters will tire the same slaves, and a multi-master communion can conceivably "burn out" slaves with too much fatigue. If you're going with multiple masters, you'll have to do some personal mathcrafting to determine who can do what in what order without people dying. (Or too many people dying.) Hint: mages cast in the order they appear on the battle screen.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 20, 2017, 10:30:24 am
Like, technically a Earth 2 mage should be able to cast EarthQuake (E4), by casting summon Earthpower, then using 1-2 gems (can't use more gems then your natural magic level in that path) to get to E4 for a single cast - but the 300 Fatigue will stop him, even if he would be able to.
Post by: Radsoc on March 20, 2017, 10:38:42 am
Then I would be better off adding an additional 2 slaves to get 2^3 ?
Will fatigue be distributed to the slaves if I cast a 300 fatigue (= 3 gem) spell? Won't gems negate the fatigue?
@ThtblovesDF: Ok, so I would have to e.g. boost that mage to E3 (e.g. earth boots), then summon earthpower (E4) and cast the spell at 3 gems? Earth boots count to his natural magic level, right?
But what about Flaming Arrows, how come it's ungreyed/not red at F2 + gems?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 20, 2017, 10:49:13 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
More info on the topic here:
http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Magical_Paths#Magic_Paths
Post by: Jilladilla on March 20, 2017, 10:56:30 am
Pheonix Power -> Flaming Arrows is the proper course of action for a F2 caster with 2 gems.
As to your second question?
Pretty much what Gigalith said in regards to communions.
Although be aware if a master casts a spell of a path that a slave doesn't have (Master casting a fire spell when a slave has 0 in fire for instance), said slave will get hit by fatigue HARD. (x4 penalty) This can kill slaves very rapidly if you try to do something like bootstrap Mass Thunder Strike/Skelespam if your slaves don't have the appropriate paths.
Optimal communion management involves the masters and slaves at least matching paths, although it is very much worth it to cast one or two mismatched spells, provided that these spells are CRITICAL (or at least important) to your success. (Typically army buffs or a battlefield enchant) Summon Earthpower, Relief and Personal Regen (Mass Regen is acceptable too) are also very good spells to cast even if mismatched, as those make the slaves much less likely to burn out. (Slaves benefit from any self-only spells a master casts)
BAH I TOOK TOO LONG TYPING THIS! (I'm a slow typer who obsessively goes over what I write ok?)
Thtbloves: An E2 mage CANNOT cast earthquake with Boots or similar booster, after casting Summon Earthpower they're at E3, yes, but they need 4 gems (1 to boost, 3 to actually cast) Earthquake, which is too much for them (Gem boosting DOES NOT raise your spending limit)
The fatigue issue you brought up is false, if a unit has less than 200 fatigue, any action that would kick them over 200 (Big spell, being a communion slave, massed heat auras, Stellar Cascades, etc.) will only bring them to 200. Any fatigue damage done to a unit that already has 200 fatigue will be converted into HP damage (15 to 1 rounded up ratio I think)
Of course, a unit with 200 fatigue is very much out of the fight without reinvigoration (20 turns it takes to wake up from that by default!), so try to summon earthpower first before any big spell (If it can wait a turn)
Back to Radsoc, First question Yes.
Second question usually yeah, as you can see communions can get ridiculous if you can make them very large, beware though, it's very much a eggs in one basket deal though.
Third question: Gems do not negate fatigue. Being overqualified to cast the spell reduces it (Gem Boost counts for this, so yes it does help) fatigue cost = listed cost divided by (how much the caster overqualifies + 1)
Also yes, an E2 mage with Boots can in fact Summon Earthpower -> Earthquake with 3 gems.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 20, 2017, 11:18:05 am
A E2 + Boots (so he is E3) can cast Earthquake if he summons Earthpower, just fine. I think we have a missunderstanding of what E2 means here, I mean e2 (naked), e3 (with boots) leading to e4 and casting just fine - a level 1 earth mage that is level 2 with boots won't get anywhere, yes.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 20, 2017, 11:41:05 am
Post by: Jilladilla on March 20, 2017, 12:15:40 pm
Like, technically a Earth 2 mage should be able to cast EarthQuake (E4), by casting summon Earthpower, then using 1-2 gems (can't use more gems then your natural magic level in that path) to get to E4 for a single cast - but the 300 Fatigue will stop him, even if he would be able to.
You never said anything about boots... (Of course boots are more or less mandatory for any Earth mage casting big Earth spells but you literally did not mention boots of any kind. Had to cover bases to make absolutely sure you see. I had to assume E2 mage without boots.)
That said, the displayed smith needs more gems to Earthquake again after he wakes up from his nap ;)
(Of note, gem boosting Earthquake with him is a matter of either getting to 200 fatigue (without) or +150 fatigue (with), if your pre-quake spells kick him over 50 boosting will do absolutely nothing for him.)
So you can only pathboost by 1 in combat, regardless of source, outside of communions? I recall that different pathboosts don't stack (i.e. Power of the Spheres and Summon Earthpower), but spell-based pathboost and gem-based pathboost don't stack either?......Oh my wow. You asked a question that my near-encyclopedic knowledge of this game HAS NO IDEA ABOUT.
(I've never had reason to try to see if Power of the Spheres and Summon Earthpower stack... (PotS is so darn expensive...) Although I THINK they will stack? This is pure guesstimation though.)
Although Summon Hellpower (WHY WOULD YOU CAST THIS?!) does give +2 to all...
But other than that, gem boost DOES stack with spell-based boost (Like summon earthpower, which does also raise your gem use per turn limit too!)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 20, 2017, 12:34:04 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 20, 2017, 12:41:34 pm
The fatigue issue you brought up is false, if a unit has less than 200 fatigue, any action that would kick them over 200 (Big spell, being a communion slave, massed heat auras, Stellar Cascades, etc.) will only bring them to 200. Any fatigue damage done to a unit that already has 200 fatigue will be converted into HP damage (15 to 1 rounded up ratio I think)
This isn't quite right. Fatigue (other than that caused by negative reinvigoration) when you're at 200 does 1 point of damage, whether it's from an 800 fatigue spell or a 5 fatigue one. So if you can manage 6hp regen/round on your slaves, they can support 6 mages indefinitely (although they may end up drooling piles of afflictions). This is the principle many turbocommunions operate on - N9 C'tis lets you field wildly unbalanced messes like 2 (shaman) slaves for 6 masters (although obviously more slaves are preferable since they'd would provide more of a discount and path boost for the masters).
(I've never had reason to try to see if Power of the Spheres and Summon Earthpower stack... (PotS is so darn expensive...) Although I THINK they will stack? This is pure guesstimation though.)
Although Summon Hellpower (WHY WOULD YOU CAST THIS?!) does give +2 to all...
Yes, they stack. They're two different effect ids, and that's what counts.
And obviously, you'd cast Hellpower to turn every slave in your communion into a wailing, doomed Horror-magnet as your equally-doomed masters grimly and recklessly fling Horrormark after Horrormark onto their stronger and/or significantly less replacable enemies.
You don't cast Power of the Spheres. You forge Crystal Shields for your combat mages. :P
If we're talking about communions, and you want your slaves to benefit from the fatigue reduction from having higher levels in the spells the master cast, you can't rely on Crystal Shields since item spells get cast before the communion goes up or any slaves join (I'll firmly ignore Crystal Matrix and unit id shenanigans for the sake of this discussion)...
Post by: Radsoc on March 20, 2017, 12:49:28 pm
- Ethereal units bypass walls, right? What about mistform-units?
- Serpent's Blessing will negate natural poisons, but what does it mean in terms of mechanics?
- Why is PotS expensive? The fatigue?
Post by: E. Albright on March 20, 2017, 12:56:55 pm
5 poison resistance.
Not sure what you mean. Why is it considered expensive, or why IS it expensive? 1-2 pearls isn't that expensive until you have 15 mages casting it every battle. Then it adds up quickly.
Post by: Jilladilla on March 20, 2017, 01:03:20 pm
You don't cast Power of the Spheres. You forge Crystal Shields for your combat mages. :P
It's still an edge case I don't think I've ever seen! But yeah, the oft forgotten Crystal Shields.... If only your encumbrance was lower (but then you'd be OP so...)
Truly E/S is best support from lab crosspath.
And because timing:
If we're talking about communions, and you want your slaves to benefit from the fatigue reduction from having higher levels in the spells the master cast, you can't rely on Crystal Shields since item spells get cast before the communion goes up or any slaves join (I'll firmly ignore Crystal Matrix and unit id shenanigans for the sake of this discussion)...If you give EVERYONE a matrix..... It may work. Maybe. Would be horrifically impractical though.
(On the fatigue: Really? Huh. Cracks show up every now and then I guess. It has been a while since I read the manual after all. But my question now is: Where the hell did I get the 15 from?)
GOD DARNIT I TYPE SLOW.
PotS is expensive to me because of fatigue, S1 mage knocks themself out casting it after all, and said S1 mage can't gem boost because it costs a gem. It's a decent communion spell though for mitigating slave fatigue and/or giving a master just a bit more power
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 21, 2017, 12:31:04 am
Post by: feelotraveller on March 21, 2017, 12:31:57 am
I wish Dominions wasn't so damn expensive. I'd be buying copies for all of my friends if each of them didn't cost almost 50 Australian dollars.
I know it's been more than a couple of weeks but if you are still interested Gamersgate currently has Dominions 4 at 60% off. https://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM4TA-STEAM/ (https://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM4TA-STEAM/) Game can either be activated on Steam or kept DRM free. Not sure how long the offer lasts... 8)
Post by: George_Chickens on March 21, 2017, 06:02:43 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 21, 2017, 08:55:00 am
Post by: E. Albright on March 22, 2017, 06:44:05 am
Post by: DFNewb on March 22, 2017, 02:59:04 pm
Round 26 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162258.0) is in need of a sub for a nation in a strong position (a NationGen nation of illithids and their vanara thralls).
I'll take it if that's cool. I am not the best player, not a lot of multiplayer experience.
Post by: Mini on March 23, 2017, 06:16:42 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 23, 2017, 06:24:47 am
Post by: Shadowlord on March 23, 2017, 06:27:13 am
Yes, if only there were some kind of programmatic constructs one could use to stand in for human players in a multi-player game scenario as a means of training... :P
They are pretty dumb compared to real players, but singleplayer is still good for learning the basics of how to play.
Post by: Jilladilla on March 23, 2017, 08:20:45 am
Yes, if only there were some kind of programmatic constructs one could use to stand in for human players in a multi-player game scenario as a means of training... :P
They are pretty dumb compared to real players, but singleplayer is still good for learning the basics of how to play.
Not to mention the fact that it's nearly indistinguishable from a multiplayer match for the first 10-15 turns or so.
But yeah, go singleplayer for a bit so you know what is what and have at least some idea of what you are doing.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 23, 2017, 01:11:34 pm
I would also advise playing MA. In the EA, its easy to either over-rely on sacreds or to get crushed by someone using sacreds. Doesn't teach magic at all.
Post by: Cruxador on March 23, 2017, 05:44:27 pm
My advice to new players would be to figure out an army that uses both mid level (2-3 in their best path) mages as well as national troops. Then repeatedly play the first 6-18 months, restarting whenever you fuck up, until you reliably have a large nation AND you get your target army together ASAP.So... You should figure out an army that uses mages and then repeatedly stop playing when you get to the part where mages begin to matter?
Post by: Kagus on March 23, 2017, 06:04:41 pm
Post by: Frumple on March 23, 2017, 06:10:20 pm
And ninja'd a bit, but eh.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 23, 2017, 11:29:33 pm
You should have one or two tricks at reaseatch 5 or less, ready for your army to use at turn 18 maximum (ideally way earlier).My advice to new players would be to figure out an army that uses both mid level (2-3 in their best path) mages as well as national troops. Then repeatedly play the first 6-18 months, restarting whenever you fuck up, until you reliably have a large nation AND you get your target army together ASAP.So... You should figure out an army that uses mages and then repeatedly stop playing when you get to the part where mages begin to matter?
Even meat and potatoes like skeleton summons or lightning will let you beat another noob, because at least you're using magic and its decently cost efficient.
Your goal for your first game of dominions should be to last as long as possible. You want to learn and have fun. Not getting rushed to death is vital to this goal.
Post by: Mech#4 on March 23, 2017, 11:44:13 pm
Quicken Self doesn't affect spell casting, but it should affect Mind Blast of Aboleths and similar since Mind Blast is a ranged attack, not a spell yes? In a similar vein, the Quicken bless buff from having 9 Water Magic on your Pretender would work in the same way?
Also, since the game doesn't give enough combat information on this even with full detail combat logs, apparently Mind Blast only deals 1 magic damage when it hits but according to what I see and Dom4 Mod Inspector Mind Blast deals 12 Paralyze. Is that the strength of the paralyze or just damage? (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 24, 2017, 12:49:46 am
Post by: Mech#4 on March 24, 2017, 02:49:23 am
Because there is a lot of spells to go through, what are some of the most common spells people use to buff their entire armies (other than blesses)? Or spells that can buff large amounts of their army if the spell caster is higher level, as I believe caster skill can affect the AOE of some spells?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 24, 2017, 03:25:23 am
https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/
will show you all spells and any spell that says "area of effect: 100% of battlefield" doesn't care for aim
all spells with a fixed number (Summon Amphiptere = 1) will summon that number,
any with one + (Summon Crocodiles: Crocodile x 5+) will summon 1 extra for each level of that skill
and with more then one + improves by that number, i.e. 2 extra (Living Statue x 10++) or 3 extra wights (Legion of Wights: Wight x 20+++)
For Combat spells it just plainly says (+5/lvl)
The games I won I mostly won because I lost less then anyone else, had better scales, bigger armys and some mass-blesses on them, Minotaurs with Mass Regeneration, Howl, Gaia's Blessing and Mass protection will just win. You also need to get lucky.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 24, 2017, 03:40:07 am
As for the "mass buffs", there aren't that many of them, and most of them are equally "common" depending on what you specialize in. The only ones that stand out are Flaming Arrows, Antimagic, and Wind Guide, because of the low(er) research requirement than most mass buffs.
Post by: Mech#4 on March 24, 2017, 03:53:37 am
Though, with mages casting buffs on groups of units, don't you end up with a lot of the mages casting the spells on the already buffed units? The randomness of things I suppose.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 24, 2017, 04:09:01 am
Post by: Mech#4 on March 24, 2017, 04:48:04 am
Post by: AlStar on March 24, 2017, 07:06:35 am
Because there is a lot of spells to go through, what are some of the most common spells people use to buff their entire armies (other than blesses)? Or spells that can buff large amounts of their army if the spell caster is higher level, as I believe caster skill can affect the AOE of some spells?I'm a big fan of strength of giants (enchantment 3, 3E, 25 AoE gives +3 strength) if you've got the casters for it. +3 strength might not sound like a whole lot, but on humans it gives them like a 30% buff to damage... and you get even better returns if you cast it on something tiny - casting swarm followed (immediately, since they'll all fly away otherwise) by a strength of giants can be fun.
Post by: Jilladilla on March 24, 2017, 09:09:58 am
They'll still cast the buff if it's in their script but they have no valid targets, though.
I'm fairly sure they won't if there's absolutely no more valid targets... (If there is just one guy that can benefit though...)
Probably easiest way to test is boot up Sceleria, reanimate some Longdead, research Thaumaturgy 1 (for communions), and then try to cast Power of the Sepulchre twice. (+4 attack and AP for ALL friendly undead. Needs H4 to cast, but communions do boost priest level.)
That said, only fairly sure, prove me wrong here and I'll endeavor to reread the entire manual again because obviously I'm forgetting a lot of stuff recently...
To Mech#4, the spellcasting AI is usually pretty good. It just doesn't have a plan.
And for your Mindblast question: Yes, it only inflicts one point of HP damage (on average). Paralyze damage is just how long it paralyzes the victim for. Note that when you paralyze an already paralyzed target, the duration of the paralyses will only be the greater of the two durations, but they'll take HP damage equal to half the smaller duration.
Remember that mindblast is still more of a support role than damage, DO NOT rely solely on it.
AlStar, aren't most of the things summoned by Swarm only capable of doing 1 damage MAX? No matter how high their strength becomes?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 24, 2017, 09:37:23 am
Also they have moral 50, so those bugs are more motivated then some gods... I imagine they simply relish the oppertunity to deliver payback to all those filithy mortals.
Post by: Mech#4 on March 24, 2017, 10:55:00 am
Also, I've seen the fun of fighting undead armies with R'lyeh. Your entire army is mindless except for your commanders? Guess who's getting mind blasted!
The rest of the fights are quite hard though. What's a good balance of Giboleths to slaves, which slaves to use and so on. The frustration of being an underwater faction who's units have iron weapons that rust, as well as having only Mind Lords as reasonable commanders moral wise.
Post by: Frumple on March 24, 2017, 11:12:06 am
Post by: AlStar on March 24, 2017, 11:42:08 am
AlStar, aren't most of the things summoned by Swarm only capable of doing 1 damage MAX? No matter how high their strength becomes?Huh, I didn't know that - shame (annoyingly, I'm fairly sure your mages will happily cast it on the swarm, since I've done that before.)
It still works wonders for things like hawks, halflings and other low-strength critters.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 24, 2017, 01:00:41 pm
In the long term in Dominions a lot of factions have to be dragged into the lategame by very expensive empowerment + boosters + summons. Its really complicated to explain why, but basically every path is different in terms of how hard it is to boost AND in terms of which levels will be helpful in the lategame. Generally in the lategame what you want is a smaller number of high level mages, and that's... not easy to get if you don't already have it. So factions vary wildly in terms of lategame power.
There are a few factions out there that in the hands of an experienced player are almost impossible to beat on even terms once it reaches the lategame. For example several factions with high level blood mages that aren't cap-recruit can eventually replace all of their troops with powerful demons and create global spells that will be extremely expensive to remove from the globals list. If all you've got against that is your national troops supplemented by mid-level magic/summons/thugs... good luck. Your best bet against these factions is to own half the map, site search everything, and crush all of your problems under the massive, inefficient weight of how many gems you have.
Post by: Jilladilla on March 24, 2017, 01:06:19 pm
Do not fault them, for they do not know it's not really helping.AlStar, aren't most of the things summoned by Swarm only capable of doing 1 damage MAX? No matter how high their strength becomes?Huh, I didn't know that - shame (annoyingly, I'm fairly sure your mages will happily cast it on the swarm, since I've done that before.)
(Actually, I would think that Swarm would create a buff magnet, as your mages see that they can hit a LOT of units if they aim over there, never really tested this, more of a fan of earth magic you see)
Swarm is still really good at getting instant chaff walls up.
Post by: Karlito on March 24, 2017, 05:41:46 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 24, 2017, 09:37:29 pm
Lobo Guard die in droves, which is what they're for but my commanders lose hope and flee.
It's worth noting that illithids have spectacularly awful morale. Mages and heroes who in other nations might have 12, 14, 16, or even 30 have... 9. Your best morale on commanders is literally the 12 morale on Traitor Princes and Illithid Lords. Every single non-slave troop has better morale than caster illithids (and the "elite slave" Meteorite Guard have as good morale as the best R'lyeh commanders). I suppose if you're a functionally immortal alien slave master, "he who fights and runs away may live to fight another day" is pretty hard to argue with...
--
Also, generally, yes, the AI tries to hit as many HP as possible with a single cast.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 03, 2017, 11:28:30 am
Post by: AlStar on April 03, 2017, 12:00:42 pm
How is the intrest in a fast, easy research, land only game?What's the definition of 'fast' in this context? 24 hour turns (less? more?) - or something else?
Land only as-in only land nations, or literally no water whatsoever? It's worth noting that several land nations get screwed over if there's none at all.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 03, 2017, 01:01:49 pm
Post by: AlStar on April 26, 2017, 09:10:39 am
Worth the time and expense of researching blood (how far up the tree?) and training up one (several?) caster(s)? Blood hunter(s)?
Post by: Jilladilla on April 26, 2017, 10:13:50 am
Curious about other's thoughts on "splashing" Blood - particularly on a nation with no Blood access on its recruitable mages, but who manages to find slave pits (or similar, like the Lower Throne), so they've got a meager (but steady) income of slaves coming in.
Worth the time and expense of researching blood (how far up the tree?) and training up one (several?) caster(s)? Blood hunter(s)?
It can be quite useful sometimes. (Although only 2 come to mind...) Note that if you empower a commander for slave hunting duty (and slave hunting duty ONLY), it's probably worth it to do so to a normal commander, to save on upkeep. They're more likely to survive stray arrows too!
Like if you have native earth magic (for Bloodstones)
A Communion focused nation can also get decent mileage out of Rejuvenation (AKA, kill slave, reset fatigue for caster+all slaves)
There's almost certainly more good cases where you can get some benefit from splashing, but I highly doubt you'll get much good out of just straight blood, it'll take far too long to bootstrap a blood economy to really leverage blood magic. Figure out what you can potentially do with it, see if you can fill in a gap or amplify your strengths. And remember, it's there to support your nations bread and butter, not stand on its own!
(P.S. I've never played a blood nation. Bootstrapped into it once myself though, but you REALLY need the Lower Throne or a province that lets you recruit Blood mages (like the ever elusive Garnet Amazons) to do so... Or you could trade I guess.)
Post by: Kagus on April 26, 2017, 10:58:53 am
Rejuvenation is great for communions, as mentioned, and you can even use a level of blood instead of astral/crystal matrix to bring another mage in on the communion, but that can get really expensive really quickly.
Sadly there aren't any particularly easy ways of bootstrapping into blood since the change was made to the SDR. Before you could just get one dude into blood, and then pump out SDRs to supply a bunch of no-maj hunters and give yourself a semi-respectable economy. There aren't even that many great low-level blood items outside the bloodstone that are really worth making... The soul contract (which is amazing for non-blood nations) requires a whopping 7B1F in order to forge one (heh, heh... forging a contract).
There's lifelong protection at Con4, which can be fun to stick onto backseat commanders so that they provide a constant annoyance/disruption factor to the enemy team. Having enough "imp portal" (imp-port-ant?) commanders on the field in a battle can actually be quite handy, as it's basically skellyspamming that can never run out of stamina and whose summons are even better at swarming enemy units.
If you do manage to get a minor blood economy going, imp familiar can actually be really handy if you've got a lot of expendable researchers, as they only cost 5 blood slaves and provide +3 to research.
Post by: Culise on April 26, 2017, 11:09:32 am
Otherwise, as noted, Bloodstones are pretty much the best low-hanging fruit as far as forges are concerned. If you can hit A6B6 somehow (most likely via pretender: Air does not break into Blood easily if it doesn't already have it), Robe of the Magi are basically Rings of Wizardry in Armor rather than Misc slots, and the Black Book of Secrets is an artifact-level Death booster.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 26, 2017, 01:07:06 pm
Post by: martinuzz on April 27, 2017, 07:36:18 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 27, 2017, 07:41:19 am
Post by: martinuzz on April 27, 2017, 07:55:51 am
Post by: Kagus on April 27, 2017, 10:23:12 am
Post by: Culise on April 27, 2017, 10:54:10 am
Post by: Cruxador on April 27, 2017, 11:08:17 am
Yeah, I've been watching some LPs on it, and it looks surprisingly deep and complex. I hope they throw a sale sometime soonSurprisingly? The franchise has been in regular development since like 2000.
Dominions sales used to be the stuff of legends, obscure myths and children's fairy tales... But they've actually been reasonably decent about putting on good sales as of late. I picked it up at 75% off, personally.Used to be there was no such thing as a Dominions sale, but they got out from under their shitty publisher just prior to releasing Dom4. That's also why 3 (and 4) are on Steam now.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 02, 2017, 04:55:30 am
Map: Anything that falls in the "10-20" Provinces/player Area
Mods: Worthy Heroes 5.5 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2749)
Era: Early Age
Disciples: Nah?
Graphs: Off
Story Events: Off
Random Events: Common
Hall of Fame: 15
Special Site Frequency: 60
If I can get 3 intrested players I'll open up the thread, otherwise we'll give it a few weeks - games can be very exhausting.
Post by: Shadowlord on May 02, 2017, 06:19:36 am
Post by: Karlito on May 02, 2017, 11:29:48 am
Post by: E. Albright on May 02, 2017, 06:31:43 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 03, 2017, 02:18:42 am
I, for one, feel all dominionsed out right now.It happens, doesn't it? I'm probably out of the game for a few months more for the same reason. Well, depending on how much time the gig I have lined up for the summer takes. Could be more than a few.
Post by: AlStar on May 04, 2017, 10:56:10 am
Normally this is where I'd extoll the virtues of the nation in question, but I basically have no contact, and, due to an oversight on my part (oh, that's right, cave provinces actually do have a bunch of commanders that can act as scouts), my scout network is crap; so I've got no idea how it's doing, how strong its troops are, or any of that. Plus side - there's at least one nation you're not at war with!
Post by: Karlito on May 22, 2017, 05:02:03 pm
Post by: E. Albright on May 22, 2017, 05:20:15 pm
Post by: Karlito on May 22, 2017, 05:44:49 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on May 22, 2017, 06:12:37 pm
Intrest check for the next game (round 27)
Map: Anything that falls in the "10-20" Provinces/player Area
Mods: Worthy Heroes 5.5 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2749)
Era: Early Age
Disciples: Nah?
Graphs: Off
Story Events: Off
Random Events: Common
Hall of Fame: 15
Special Site Frequency: 60
If I can get 3 intrested players I'll open up the thread, otherwise we'll give it a few weeks - games can be very exhausting.
I'm in. Probably fomoria or ctis
Post by: Radsoc on May 23, 2017, 04:41:13 am
Post by: George_Chickens on May 23, 2017, 04:54:57 am
Post by: AlStar on May 23, 2017, 06:24:06 am
What purpose does the "Ruined Halls of the Mountain King" serve? Just an empty site?It looks like it's the end of an event chain which involves defeating a Troll King - once he's defeated, whatever province that originally spawned him will pop the Halls (in addition to giving whoever beat him 2300 gold, 2 level 0-6 items, and 3d6 earth gems.)
Post by: Radsoc on May 23, 2017, 06:50:23 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 23, 2017, 09:56:59 am
Dominions 4 Round 27 - Setup (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164252.0)
Post by: E. Albright on May 23, 2017, 01:03:41 pm
Is there a good guide on strategies for middle age C'tis? They fascinate me, but I have no idea how to play them properly and I wind up falling the moment people wise up and deal with my runner flanks.
Skellie spam and Foul Vapors are a good place to start. Turbo communions with the shamans as communicants also help, especially if you have N9 to get them up to 20% regen (i.e., +6hp/turn).
Post by: Cruxador on May 23, 2017, 02:40:24 pm
This. C'tis' strategy of combining foul vapors with as much Horde of Skeletons as you can muster is pretty much the poster child of a simple, straightforward, and effective strategy well suited to learning the game.Is there a good guide on strategies for middle age C'tis? They fascinate me, but I have no idea how to play them properly and I wind up falling the moment people wise up and deal with my runner flanks.
Skellie spam and Foul Vapors are a good place to start. Turbo communions with the shamans as communicants also help, especially if you have N9 to get them up to 20% regen (i.e., +6hp/turn).
Post by: Cthulhu on May 23, 2017, 02:57:02 pm
Is there a good guide on strategies for middle age C'tis? They fascinate me, but I have no idea how to play them properly and I wind up falling the moment people wise up and deal with my runner flanks.
I've never used runner flanks, I don't see runners doing very well.
C'tis's star infantry are the heavy infantry and elite slave warriors. Heavy infantry have good protection and great repel against things without spears, while elite warriors have two attacks and chew through almost anything. A big line of heavy infantry in front to target and soak up arrows (hold and attack closest) and then flanking groups of elite warriors (hold and attack rear) will mop up most indies with minimal casualties.
Flanking is hard to do. Attack rear doesn't work if enemies come in a certain range, though I'm taking advantage of it in that scenario. Setting front-line units on the flanks to attack rear means they move straight forward and then aggro the enemy's center mass of troops to achieve a proper encirclement, whereas with attack closest they move diagonally to the center and get mashed up with the rest of your army.
Enchantment is their go-to battlemagic school.
Pretender choice is something I'm still wonky about on MA c'tis though.
Edit: If you actually want flankers to flank put your main lineholders in one corner of the map as far forward as you can and put the flankers on the other corner, set back with hold and attack rear. The lineholders will pull their force away from the flankers so they won't aggro. This is also necessary for flyers, who have to make a morale check for each squad they pass over or immediately attack.
Post by: Frumple on May 23, 2017, 03:10:19 pm
Can't recall if anything's been changed to do much bud nipping for that particular bit of nastiness, at least.
Post by: E. Albright on May 23, 2017, 03:54:54 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 23, 2017, 04:02:17 pm
It's generally touted as an expansion strategy rather than a major battle strategy.Is there a good guide on strategies for middle age C'tis? They fascinate me, but I have no idea how to play them properly and I wind up falling the moment people wise up and deal with my runner flanks.
I've never used runner flanks, I don't see runners doing very well.
Post by: Kagus on May 24, 2017, 08:10:57 am
They're honestly not that bad of an alternative to the slave warriors, as they're marginally cheaper and have less encumbrance. The 3 map move may not seem great since you don't have access to any slave master mapmove 3 commanders, but if you put a pair of boots of long striding on a taskmaster you get exactly that... MM 3 with slave driver. Theoretically you could turn that into a quick-response task force or something, I'unno. Point is, stat-for-stat, runners are honestly pretty decent against lightly-armored enemies, since with their 2 attacks and 3 encumbrance they can tire out larger forces fairly well if they stick around long enough. Little expensive at 13 gold, but they can be levied quickly thanks to only costing 2 resources a pop.
Definitely not the frontline bruisers the elite warriors are, but there's some use for them.
As for expansion strategies, I've always kinda liked the poison slingers... They chew through heavy armor like nobody's business, and the AoE on the pellets helps against shields/general inaccuracy. Bloody expensive though, but still gonna be available a lot earlier than foul vapors.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 24, 2017, 09:36:50 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 24, 2017, 03:02:54 pm
From what I remember of the LA C'Tis game I played I had one army that was nothing but triple bless mummy snakes and then one that was melee lizard dudes with banefire throwers behind them.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 25, 2017, 11:10:05 am
Post by: E. Albright on May 25, 2017, 12:14:46 pm
Post by: Wysthric on June 03, 2017, 09:11:13 am
Post by: Frumple on June 03, 2017, 10:55:41 am
Post by: E. Albright on June 03, 2017, 12:04:29 pm
[Without more information, the most common problems I've seen over the years are Java Runtime Environment problems, and cases where the archive was unpacked such that the folder structure wasn't maintained.]
(Sidenote: update coming sometime, I swear.)
Post by: Micro102 on June 04, 2017, 09:35:09 am
Post by: E. Albright on June 04, 2017, 11:36:14 am
Post by: Frumple on June 04, 2017, 04:15:43 pm
Post by: Micro102 on June 04, 2017, 04:46:45 pm
Yeah, some folks definitely play like that. I don't think terribly many, since by and large it slows the (already a significant length, with most multiplayer setups) game down by a fairly significant margin, but some people do it. Probably could poke around the usual places elsewhere online and see if anyone's trying to organize for a game like that.I don't know if it would lengthen the game, as the game takes so long because you have so much potential with all those gems you get that everyone spams hundreds of units in dozens of castles and you have to slowly grind your way through sieges.
With fewer units and fortresses the game could very well go faster.
Post by: Kagus on June 04, 2017, 06:39:03 pm
Post by: Frumple on June 04, 2017, 07:51:59 pm
Conceptually not having summoning spam could speed things up, but it... usually doesn't quite work that way, least as far as I've noticed from hearing folks talk about those kinds of games.
That said, if summoning masses are you primary concern, that would be fairly trivial to mod so they're more expensive or otherwise limited. Not something you could just tweak in the options, but particularly if you were setting it up for a slate of specific nations it wouldn't really take all that much effort. Double/triple/quadruple costs, want to say you could tweak things so there's a hard cap on specific spells (though also pretty sure that would take a fair bit more effort), stuff like that. Feeling really frisky you can do some neat stuff with items or units, remove summoning spells entirely (or limited to stuff like the elemental royalty) and have that aspect of the game entirely limited to equipment and the occasional indie or national.
Post by: Cruxador on June 04, 2017, 09:28:03 pm
Not least because MA Ulm would be able to happily just chew through everything without fear of repercussion.For a game like that, I'd recommend LA since the nations are a bit more designed to fit that kind of paradigm.
Post by: Micro102 on June 14, 2017, 09:37:50 pm
Post by: Culise on June 14, 2017, 11:09:30 pm
Spoiler: Since some may not want to be spoiled on story events (click to show/hide)
Post by: Micro102 on June 17, 2017, 12:42:59 pm
I've seen it, yes... I suspect it would favor blood nations, though; while blood hunting scales with site frequency, it can also be scaled up to arbitrarily high levels.
I just saw a tip on the loading screen and thought I should mention it. Lower site frequency makes blood hunting harder.
Post by: Cthulhu on June 17, 2017, 12:45:38 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 17, 2017, 02:33:05 pm
Sites = 75, 2 years of B1 hunting in the capital with patrollers: 104 slaves -> 4.3 slaves/turn
Sites = 0, 2 years of B2 hunting in the capital with patrollers: 48 slaves -> 2 slaves/turn
Sites = 75, 2 years of B2 hunting in the capital with patrollers: 211 slaves -> 8.8 slaves/turn
Sites = 0, 2 years of B3 hunting in the capital with patrollers: 60 slaves -> 2.5 slaves/turn
Sites = 75, 2 years of B3 hunting in the capital with patrollers: 280 slaves -> 11.7 slaves/turn
N = 24, so actually slightly below the bare minimum to be statistically significant, but it's not meant to be rigorous. B2 is probably most relevant (B1 + rod). There are a LOT more failed hunts at lower site levels.
Post by: Cruxador on June 20, 2017, 01:18:02 am
N = 24You could lump together the three B path treatments if you analyze the samples as paired, which would give you N=74. Some might argue that you should, because if you consider that your hunting and growth/death are influencing province population, time is potentially also pretty relevant.
Post by: E. Albright on June 20, 2017, 12:07:37 pm
Post by: George_Chickens on July 03, 2017, 09:48:33 am
I'm upset they didn't feed it a Doom Horror.
What would you guys say is the best middle age team for blood magic? Or at least a good one. I love the idea of summoning hell beasts and cthuluian horrors into the world.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 03, 2017, 12:31:21 pm
I dunno if MA is the best age for going full blood. LA has a ton of blood nations and EA has some standouts.
Post by: Frumple on July 03, 2017, 12:54:01 pm
Van can manage it if you're feeling frisky. Mict can still get into blood if you feel like being insistent if you take a B5 or so pretender -- they still have access to their national summons. Same with ash and bandar. Seems to be about it for MA, though, if the neither the inspector nor me are missing something.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 03, 2017, 01:07:18 pm
Post by: Kagus on July 03, 2017, 03:19:59 pm
An odd one worth mentioning is Bandar Log. No native blood mages, but they keep almost all the blood summons of Lanka, PLUS all the celestial summons of Kailasa. You can eventually grind your way up to dakinis who have B3, but it's a stretch at Blood 6. What's really fun is getting the White Bandar to go around naturally suppressing unrest (and auto-summoning more mooks who do the same thing) to keep things quiet in hunt provinces without hurting the population through patrols.
Pangaea also has the pandemoniacs, but they're expensive as hell (hah) and cap-only.
Vanheim and Vanarus have just enough blood to get you interested, but not enough oomph to do anything cool with it and no ecohunters.
Y'know, I'm actually kinda sad that R'lyeh doesn't get any blood power, as their theme really would tie into all the ritual sacrifice and, y'know, summoning horrors. Also the blood vortex ritual is pretty much fluffed straight out of Chulhuville.
Oh, right, just remembered something... Y'know the giant fetish pretender that Machaka gets? The mindless, lifeless pretender? Yeah, well, horror mark doesn't work on mindless dudes.
I've dicked around with this before, and you can just walk into a battle with a few slaves and call horrors, and they'll ignore you and go straight for the enemy. Even if you do get marked through casting or items or something, all your marks get wiped at the start of the next map turn.
Now, the horrors WILL attack you if you're the last thing on the battlefield, but they'll leave you alone until then. Their attacks will also plant more horror marks, but this does nothing as the marks will, as mentioned, just disappear.
The problem lies in getting blood and astral onto a giant fetish and not just being a one-trick pony that's late to the show...
EDIT: Also, regarding the actual reason I started writing a post in the first place (the Eater of the Thread)... Dayum. Shame it didn't keep spreading the dude's dominion, that would've been hilarious. Now I'm just trying to imagine the best/worst things you could put on it to make it even more ridiculous.
Also, honorable mention to the six-armed crone down near the bottom there.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 09, 2017, 01:21:09 pm
There's a hero with sailing, and that sailing ability has max size 2. And yet, the hero can sail with their national size 3 dancers. What's up with that?
Post by: Jilladilla on July 09, 2017, 07:44:51 pm
My recent adventures in bamboozlement, i.e. playing Therodos, have brought out another mystery:Korybant's/Kouretes have a thing that says they only count as size 2 for the purposes of sailing. I don't think this is listed in game however.
There's a hero with sailing, and that sailing ability has max size 2. And yet, the hero can sail with their national size 3 dancers. What's up with that?
I mean, the description does say that their sacred battle dance thing is not suited for dense formation fighting, and that's the reason they're size 3.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 10, 2017, 05:22:20 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 10, 2017, 06:51:50 am
Post by: Majestic7 on July 10, 2017, 07:21:13 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 17, 2017, 02:13:25 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 17, 2017, 02:22:38 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 17, 2017, 02:41:51 pm
Post by: cider on July 17, 2017, 02:51:33 pm
I must admit I don't think I've ever played with Death scales other than the few rare times I've played Ermor. Permanent income loss from losing population and your mages getting feebleminded from old age just don't seem worth it. Taking some sloth or temperature seems like an easier choice for extra points.
Every time I pick Death scales my strategy revolves around. It's such a major game changer because of how crippling it can/will be if you're not prepared for it.
I will say that it's pretty fun thematically to pick Death scales with a strong dominion and then focus on pushing said dominion, eventually causing slow but assured death to the lands around you while your own mages are reborn as undead death mages (Twiceborn). That doesn't mean it's a good strategy though, haha.
Hey, what happens if you get a vampire unit (immortal), it dies, and you're a water nation? Does it just die forever?
Yep, he's fugged.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 17, 2017, 03:42:26 pm
He ded. Like so ded.Oh dear. That's so unfortunate for him.
Another Q: which item(s) can make a non-stealthy commander stealthy?
Post by: Jilladilla on July 17, 2017, 04:53:45 pm
And even with artifacts the Amulet of the Doppelganger is the only one of those that'll do this too.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 21, 2017, 06:14:55 am
Anyway, here's another one:
Say, you have a fatigue-neutral unit, and you cast quickness on it. Does it mean it is now no longer fatigue-neutral because it attacks more often/round? Or does mean it's still neutral, since it 'acts' more often per round, so that any reinvigoration it may have is also applied more often?
Post by: Karlito on July 21, 2017, 10:14:06 am
Post by: George_Chickens on July 21, 2017, 12:03:46 pm
Post by: AlStar on July 21, 2017, 01:26:04 pm
How does one kill a reassembled prince? I've been having quite some problems with this.He's immortal, so you'll have to kill him outside of his domain to keep him down. Either lure him to your domain (or anyone else's, although it's hard to tell one enemy dominion from another), or get some priests and start preaching.
Post by: Karlito on July 21, 2017, 05:15:10 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 21, 2017, 06:13:27 pm
If they're not lifeless, there's also forced shapechanging, ehehehe...
Post by: RoguelikeRazuka on July 22, 2017, 03:57:34 am
Post by: George_Chickens on July 22, 2017, 04:23:49 am
Purchased this on steam sometime ago, but suddenly I realise I have no friends to play it with (should've thought about that in the first place), yet some people say it's better played in multiplayer mode rather than just versus the AI. Nevertheless, will this game be enjoyable to me if I'm only going to play it alone?
A majority of my games are spent alone, and I still find it to be incredibly fun. Multiplayer is better in the sense that Dominions 4, like any good strategy game, is not a game of rigid, fixed strategies, but more like a canvas that you paint your strategies onto. It has a very free style of gameplay that only really comes out with other players.
The AI doesn't grasp the subtle metastratgies that a human can perform, but it's suitably competent and can still provide fun and memorable battles. Besides, even if you don't like singleplayer, since it's a turn based game all you need is to find someone who is willing to play with you. I'm sure there's quite a few people here who would enjoy it.
Post by: AlStar on July 22, 2017, 07:06:55 am
Purchased this on steam sometime ago, but suddenly I realise I have no friends to play it with (should've thought about that in the first place), yet some people say it's better played in multiplayer mode rather than just versus the AI. Nevertheless, will this game be enjoyable to me if I'm only going to play it alone?Any particular reason why you'd need to be playing specifically with friends? We've pretty much always got ~two games running here, and always welcome new blood. (Although you'll want to check which mods the game is running before you join - I'm not certain I'd recommend playing a NationGen game as your first step into Dominions multiplayer.) :P
That said, the AI isn't horrible - just don't expect it to pull off the crazy shit that other players will.
Post by: Cruxador on July 22, 2017, 07:08:48 am
Purchased this on steam sometime ago, but suddenly I realise I have no friends to play it with (should've thought about that in the first place), yet some people say it's better played in multiplayer mode rather than just versus the AI. Nevertheless, will this game be enjoyable to me if I'm only going to play it alone?it'll still be fun for a while, you just won't get much more out of it than a typical strategy game.
The AI is only really going to be challenging if you're not very good with magic, which is sort of the meat of the game. If course, you probably won't get good at magic of you just play against AI, so it's not like you can't have fun, you'll just be missing out on a major dimension of the game.Purchased this on steam sometime ago, but suddenly I realise I have no friends to play it with (should've thought about that in the first place), yet some people say it's better played in multiplayer mode rather than just versus the AI. Nevertheless, will this game be enjoyable to me if I'm only going to play it alone?
A majority of my games are spent alone, and I still find it to be incredibly fun. Multiplayer is better in the sense that Dominions 4, like any good strategy game, is not a game of rigid, fixed strategies, but more like a canvas that you paint your strategies onto. It has a very free style of gameplay that only really comes out with other players.
The AI doesn't grasp the subtle metastratgies that a human can perform, but it's suitably competent and can still provide fun and memorable battles. Besides, even if you don't like singleplayer, since it's a turn based game all you need is to find someone who is willing to play with you. I'm sure there's quite a few people here who would enjoy it.
Post by: E. Albright on July 22, 2017, 09:43:13 am
(Although you'll want to check which mods the game is running before you join - I'm not certain I'd recommend playing a NationGen game as your first step into Dominions multiplayer.)
I'm slightly concerned that over the last 6mo or so there's been some movement in the community (not here, but elsewhere) towards the big balance/content mods that smacks unpleasantly of Dom3-era CBM attitudes. <sigh>
Post by: Cruxador on July 22, 2017, 02:19:08 pm
JK has consistently worked to improve the AI over the last few years, and it does do things (magic included) better than it used to. Dom4 SP is a lot more rewarding than Dom<4 SP. It's still a static opponent without the focused understanding experienced players have, but it's not completely hopeless.Well, perhaps my perspective is out of date, but it's definitely been the case in Dom 4 that see AI couldn't adapt to much of anything.
(Although you'll want to check which mods the game is running before you join - I'm not certain I'd recommend playing a NationGen game as your first step into Dominions multiplayer.)
I'm slightly concerned that over the last 6mo or so there's been some movement in the community (not here, but elsewhere) towards the big balance/content mods that smacks unpleasantly of Dom3-era CBM attitudes. <sigh>
[/quote]Not sure what you're talking about with moving towards anything, since people have been trying to get out a good balance mod literally since the game launched, and before that was CBM. There's a couple big content mods, like Magic Expanded, which are somewhat popular for use as a game's defining gimmick, but I haven't seen anything going beyond that level.
Post by: E. Albright on July 22, 2017, 06:20:13 pm
Post by: Karlito on July 22, 2017, 08:31:32 pm
I don't necessarily think a huge "balance" mod is the best way to achieve that goal, and the political nature of a Dominions match does a lot to prevent the emergence of a single dominant strategy, but there is a case to be made for such mods.
Post by: Frumple on July 22, 2017, 08:39:13 pm
... though that said, I do seem to recall one version of CBM or another actually being a fairly solid boost to D3. You'd have trouble paying me to go back and play it to find out, mind,* but still. D4 is definitely in better shape on that front than the predecessor, though, imo.
* I think the only thing that's able to get me to go back to D3 when I have access to D4 is that one awesome fungus mod -- Myconos, now that I check again. Quite possibly the most interesting/best put together mostly!freespawn nation mod I've seen for a dominions game, 3 or 4. If anyone ever gets around to porting that thing I'd be tempted to burn Dom 3 in effigy and never look back :P
If I could get around to finding a decent guide to converting a d3 mod, I'd probably just do it myself. Friggin' thing's great.
Post by: Cruxador on July 22, 2017, 09:50:26 pm
It's probably just a matter of overhaul mods becoming more mature and the length of time since a content update growing, but it feels like there's increased acceptance of the idea that vanilla needs a grand-scale balance/overhaul patch. That sentiment was really strong when Dom4 first was released ("thanks", CBM), but it faded fairly quickly. It seems to be creeping back out of the shadows, though.I don't know what communities you've been around so I can't definitely agree or disagree, but what I've seen is more that people just agree that it benefits with one, and the most popular one (summod) provides more than enough benefit to outweigh any benefit or contention. Most types because it is almost entirely pure balance, and because (specific details aside) it is inarguably more balanced than vanilla. But it's been in heavy use since it was released years ago, at least in games at (or aspiring to be at) a high enough level for that level of balance details to matter.
While I don't think Dominions needs such a patch, I can definitely see the metagame growing stale in certain communities, and thus overhaul mods serve a similar function as new card packs in a ccg: they force players to experiment and seek out novel strategies.Eh, balance mods don't do this so much, and gimmick games (huge maps, things like "everyone is quadbless" or games using mod nations or nationgen, or other big content mods) have been popular for years. They already were when I started blogging, since the blog itself was initially a gimmick. That was something like three years ago.
Quote
I really think this is overstated, actually. It's true that people may be induced to gang up on Ermor, but taking out a game leader often suffers from a tragedy of the commons thing. In practice, we still see certain nations winning and a significantly higher rate than others. It's not necessarily a problem if you're just playing for fun and don't much care who wins, but some people do like for each nation to be similar in viability.
I don't necessarily think a huge "balance" mod is the best way to achieve that goal, and the political nature of a Dominions match does a lot to prevent the emergence of a single dominant strategy, but there is a case to be made for such mods.
Post by: E. Albright on July 23, 2017, 06:13:51 pm
the most popular one (summod) provides more than enough benefit to outweigh any benefit or contention. Most types because it is almost entirely pure balance, and because (specific details aside) it is inarguably more balanced than vanilla.
Enh. It's unarguably more tuned, but not perforce better balanced, even if it seeks to bolster/nerf what (a subset of) popular opinions deem to be strong and weak. A problem with something like this is it starts off adjusting balance according to the basegame, but soon enough it needs to begin balancing according to its own changes. It also bakes certain assumptions about "correct" playstyle into the redefined game mechanics. At a certain point, it becomes its own thing, with its own default assumptions, and those assumptions drive the (perpetually ongoing) balancing calculations. If you want to go with that, that's fine, but I can't say I'm pleased to see increasing enthusiasm for a "must-have" balance mod.
This is an old argument, though, and opinions on it tend to be calcified. I know mine is.
Post by: Culise on July 23, 2017, 07:06:17 pm
With Ermor specifically and other pop-kill dominions in general, that's doubly-true. Anyone who conquers these lands tends to bleed for it both in combat and attrition, neglecting Wineskins and Pots, but they don't get nearly as much back from those dead lands as they would from the conquest of a nation of equivalent power and an actual population to tax and recruit from. In addition to divvying up the gem-based spoils (or not), you end up with a bit of a case with them in particular where it's actually best if it's taken down by a coalition of people other than yourself, unless they cast something that hammers everyone in the game or threaten a full runaway victory.QuoteI really think this is overstated, actually. It's true that people may be induced to gang up on Ermor, but taking out a game leader often suffers from a tragedy of the commons thing. In practice, we still see certain nations winning and a significantly higher rate than others. It's not necessarily a problem if you're just playing for fun and don't much care who wins, but some people do like for each nation to be similar in viability.
I don't necessarily think a huge "balance" mod is the best way to achieve that goal, and the political nature of a Dominions match does a lot to prevent the emergence of a single dominant strategy, but there is a case to be made for such mods.
That said, even though I didn't play multiplayer at all back in the day and still barely do so nowadays with Dom4, I actually liked CBM. I'm slightly surprised to find the hate for it here.
Post by: Cruxador on July 23, 2017, 11:49:57 pm
For summod specifically, it's not just based on opinions, it's based on nation win rate. Obviously some degree of opinion is still necessary for individual options, but it's still based on what sees a lot of use rather than what people see as strong. And I haven't seen the base game fading into irrelevance as you say in summod discussions. I think you're transferring opinions from CBM that don't necessarily apply. That's not to say I support summod unconditionally, but the only things that see gameplay changes (aside from numerical rebalancing) is Ermor getting special D sites to counter what Culise mentioned and MA Man getting some weird goodies, which I actually criticized for reasons similar to your own, but which are justified by the nation's general lack of good shit.the most popular one (summod) provides more than enough benefit to outweigh any benefit or contention. Most types because it is almost entirely pure balance, and because (specific details aside) it is inarguably more balanced than vanilla.
Enh. It's unarguably more tuned, but not perforce better balanced, even if it seeks to bolster/nerf what (a subset of) popular opinions deem to be strong and weak. A problem with something like this is it starts off adjusting balance according to the basegame, but soon enough it needs to begin balancing according to its own changes. It also bakes certain assumptions about "correct" playstyle into the redefined game mechanics. At a certain point, it becomes its own thing, with its own default assumptions, and those assumptions drive the (perpetually ongoing) balancing calculations. If you want to go with that, that's fine, but I can't say I'm pleased to see increasing enthusiasm for a "must-have" balance mod.
This is an old argument, though, and opinions on it tend to be calcified. I know mine is.
And while details might be quibbled with, it must definitely is better balanced. The changes to Ermor and to Xibalba alone would do that, since they dominate their respective ages, and the prevalence of nice little boons to weak nations makes them a lot more viable. I don't think it's possible to assess summod as anything less than a drastic improvement in balance unless you're utterly failing to see the forest for the trees or you're playing at a level where vanilla is balanced enough anyway, since there are other concerns besides nation strength that matter far more.
Post by: E. Albright on July 24, 2017, 12:12:47 am
For summod specifically, it's not just based on opinions, it's based on nation win rate.
If this is supposed to be a reassuring statement, then you plainly don't remember the flamewars about the usefulness of sum1won's attempts to survey win rates.
I think you're transferring opinions from CBM that don't necessarily apply.
I think you're misunderstanding why I say I'm concerned to see "balance mods" growing in popularity. The basis for that concern is where it leads, not where we are ATM; CBM "got there" and summod looks to be walking down that path (albeit slower due to restraint about adding content). Balance mods, when widely adopted, create a "new normal" and make people's expectations revolve around what the mod promotes as "correct" and "normal" gameplay. This changes the opinions of the community about what is good and what is not, as well as what is balanced and what is not, and what a "normal" metagame is and is not. If you like the outcome, that's not a problem for you, but it distorts, narrows, and homogenizes the metagames within the sub-communities.
Also, and this is big, these sorts of mods have a bad habit of escalating power creep, and summod is definitely guilty on this score (https://github.com/sum1won/summod/blob/master/README.md). Per the above, it makes sense; e.g. it's tuned for shorter games, and many many MANY of its changes reflect that. Again, if that's what you're looking for, that's fine. But saying it's "unquestionably better balanced" when its selected pivot point is noticeably different than vanilla's makes the statement a whole lot more ambiguous.
Post by: Cruxador on July 24, 2017, 01:55:44 am
A flamewar is by definition not a reasonable discussion anyway. I do remember some people on Desura contesting it, but I certainly don't remember any well-supported arguments discrediting it as an actually useful dataset.For summod specifically, it's not just based on opinions, it's based on nation win rate.
If this is supposed to be a reassuring statement, then you plainly don't remember the flamewars about the usefulness of sum1won's attempts to survey win rates.
Quote
Well, as a concern for the future I think your concern is reasonable, then. I don't think we're actually headed that way, at least to the degree you described, but it certainly doesn't hurt to be vigilant.I think you're transferring opinions from CBM that don't necessarily apply.
I think you're misunderstanding why I say I'm concerned to see "balance mods" growing in popularity. The basis for that concern is where it leads, not where we are ATM; CBM "got there" and summod looks to be walking down that path (albeit slower due to restraint about adding content). Balance mods, when widely adopted, create a "new normal" and make people's expectations revolve around what the mod promotes as "correct" and "normal" gameplay. This changes the opinions of the community about what is good and what is not, as well as what is balanced and what is not, and what a "normal" metagame is and is not. If you like the outcome, that's not a problem for you, but it distorts, narrows, and homogenizes the metagames within the sub-communities.
Quote
Also, and this is big, these sorts of mods have a bad habit of escalating power creep, and summod is definitely guilty on this score (https://github.com/sum1won/summod/blob/master/README.md). Per the above, it makes sense; e.g. it's tuned for shorter games, and many many MANY of its changes reflect that. Again, if that's what you're looking for, that's fine. But saying it's "unquestionably better balanced" when its selected pivot point is noticeably different than vanilla's makes the statement a whole lot more ambiguous.There's a number of things in this bit where I'm not certain I fully understand you. On power creep, are we talking about the total available power in the game, or the subset of which actually sees play? In the former case, the changelog does support your statement since a lot of things are made cheaper or stronger, but in the latter case, I disagree. The strongest and most commonly used options are typically nerfed; the things receiving buffs are great in number but are typically not used without summod except in very rare instances or in single player and otherwise non-competitive environments. As such, the overall power level goes down.
Tuning for shorter games is a complicated claim, so I want to make sure I know what you mean here; what do you define as a shorter game vs. standard game length? My perception of summod is that it's based on games at the length that they tend to get played, but I can't think of any specific changes that are directly related to game length except for the impact Growth/Death have on population change, which is a big thing in favor of longer games. I'm also not certain what you mean by the pivot point; is this in reference to game length again? I don't think that vanilla really has a coherent expectation of game length, since you have nations like Niefelheim which can only function well in duels and then nations like Berytos which take ages to properly come on line. It wouldn't surprise me if some concessions have made to these kinds of nations with a strong bias to one part of the game, but I can't think of any off the top of my head (not too surprising though, I'm not intimately involved in summod development and haven't played it in some months) and I don't think that doing so would necessarily make the game more strongly oriented towards one particular game length and only the one meta.
Post by: AlStar on July 24, 2017, 09:19:33 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 24, 2017, 11:22:44 am
I do remember some people on Desura contesting it, but I certainly don't remember any well-supported arguments discrediting it as an actually useful dataset.
I do. I also remember as much of the unreasonable discussion being in its favor as against it.
On power creep, are we talking about the total available power in the game, or the subset of which actually sees play? In the former case, the changelog does support your statement since a lot of things are made cheaper or stronger, but in the latter case, I disagree. The strongest and most commonly used options are typically nerfed; the things receiving buffs are great in number but are typically not used without summod except in very rare instances or in single player and otherwise non-competitive environments. As such, the overall power level goes down.
There's not a lot of nerfing going on. There are a few narrowly targeted nerfs, sometimes coinciding with other buffs. There are a huge amount of buffs, to most everything. As with CBM, the balancing philosophy is "moar is MOAR"; overall powerlevel is fairly drastically increased rather than applying significant nerfs. It's a powergamer mod.
Also, I'm not sure how the last sentence of the above-quoted paragraph is supposed to follow from everything before it. Weak (or perceived-as-weak) things get significantly boosted to the point that they're competitive enough to use against best-in-class things. The overall power level is unquestionably raised - however, if the things are now powerful enough to merit use in play with/against of the unnerfed or lightly-nerfed OP things, how is that in any way, shape, or form reducing the overall power level? If the mod is as well balanced and competitively used as you've argued, those buffed things aren't going to see use unless they're as good or better than the oft-used-in-vanilla OP things. So again, how is that reducing the overall power level? If I may strain the analogy you seem to be alluding to: you're not proposing dilution of the cauldron of content by "adding" thinner solutions; you're proposing a bigger pot with more solutions of roughly equal strength being added in addition to the strong solutions that were already there.
Tuning for shorter games is a complicated claim, so I want to make sure I know what you mean here; what do you define as a shorter game vs. standard game length?
Blitz. summod grew out of direct-connect blitz meta. It may have moved on beyond that, but I'm skeptical, as it still has a huge raft of changes aimed at getting more stuff out with fewer mage-turns and less research.
Another note: looking over the current changelog last night, I have to say I'm seeing a lot more content changes than I expected to see. Some of it is dubious (Sharknado? Really?), and some of it is extremely involved (LA Pythium). This is, to be charitable, straining the notion of "just a balance mod".
Post by: Cruxador on July 25, 2017, 01:29:51 am
Hm. Maybe share some of those reasonable arguments then, because they've eluded either my initial notice or my memory. The closest I saw was that it was insufficiently rigorous for some scientific disciplines, but since it's good enough for ecology or sociology, which it most closely resembles, those complaints never seemed relevant to me.I do remember some people on Desura contesting it, but I certainly don't remember any well-supported arguments discrediting it as an actually useful dataset.
I do. I also remember as much of the unreasonable discussion being in its favor as against it.
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There are a lot of buffs to things that generally don't see a lot of play. Dominions has thousands of things in each general category, so it's understandable that this would include a lot of them. The nerfs are as narrowly targeted as the buffs, applying (generally) to single spells or single nations rather than entire strategies. Also, the notion of a powergamer mod doesn't even make sense in a multiplayer game. But if there was such a thing, it would be stripping away or ignoring the weaker options in favor of the strongest, so this is clearly not that.On power creep, are we talking about the total available power in the game, or the subset of which actually sees play? In the former case, the changelog does support your statement since a lot of things are made cheaper or stronger, but in the latter case, I disagree. The strongest and most commonly used options are typically nerfed; the things receiving buffs are great in number but are typically not used without summod except in very rare instances or in single player and otherwise non-competitive environments. As such, the overall power level goes down.
There's not a lot of nerfing going on. There are a few narrowly targeted nerfs, sometimes coinciding with other buffs. There are a huge amount of buffs, to most everything. As with CBM, the balancing philosophy is "moar is MOAR"; overall powerlevel is fairly drastically increased rather than applying significant nerfs. It's a powergamer mod.
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Also, I'm not sure how the last sentence of the above-quoted paragraph is supposed to follow from everything before it. Weak (or perceived-as-weak) things get significantly boosted to the point that they're competitive enough to use against best-in-class things. The overall power level is unquestionably raised - however, if the things are now powerful enough to merit use in play with/against of the unnerfed or lightly-nerfed OP things, how is that in any way, shape, or form reducing the overall power level?Are you actually looking at the changes? Ermor received massive nerfs. EA Xibaba received massive nerfs. Rain of Stones received massive nerfs. Frost Brand received massive nerfs. Growth scales received massive nerfs. What best-in-class things are you seeing which are nerfed only lightly or not at all.
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If the mod is as well balanced and competitively used as you've argued, those buffed things aren't going to see use unless they're as good or better than the oft-used-in-vanilla OP things. So again, how is that reducing the overall power level? If I may strain the analogy you seem to be alluding to: you're not proposing dilution of the cauldron of content by "adding" thinner solutions; you're proposing a bigger pot with more solutions of roughly equal strength being added in addition to the strong solutions that were already there.It's better balanced because things draw closer to the same level of power. That level of power may be higher than the median level in vanilla, but the strongest things are weaker and the weakest things are stronger. There's still a range, of course, but it's a smaller range than it used to be. And the higher median power may be an accurate assessment, but in actual play, the weakest options rarely saw use so the mean power level (if we count each nation's appearance in a game (or that of each spell or etc) as a separate datum) doesn't necessarily rise just because the median does, and as we see the options that are in most every game getting nerfed, the level can even fall.
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Oh. Well that's just factually wrong. It comes from PBEM meta, and is based on other balance mods that also came from a PBEM meta. It came from an almost purely PBEM community, though sum1 intentionally broadened out to include other communities and collected tons of PBEM data. I don't know if he even accepted blitz data from the mod, I don't think he necessarily specified, but he was playing tons of PBEM (hell, he ran and won the first one on my AAR blog) and that's the meta he was from and developing for. Pretty much the only connection that blitz has to summod is that it's used to beta test, but that's more to do with bugs anyway since balance changes aren't going to come to the fore there.Tuning for shorter games is a complicated claim, so I want to make sure I know what you mean here; what do you define as a shorter game vs. standard game length?
Blitz. summod grew out of direct-connect blitz meta. It may have moved on beyond that, but I'm skeptical, as it still has a huge raft of changes aimed at getting more stuff out with fewer mage-turns and less research.
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Another note: looking over the current changelog last night, I have to say I'm seeing a lot more content changes than I expected to see. Some of it is dubious (Sharknado? Really?), and some of it is extremely involved (LA Pythium). This is, to be charitable, straining the notion of "just a balance mod".Yeah, I don't care for the involved shit either and the sharknado reference is utterly retarded. I'm not saying there's nothing questionable in the mod (I already mentioned two other examples) but rather, that it's an improvement over vanilla if you're in a situation where balance matters. You're welcome to add your voice to mine in telling sum1won et al that those particular changes overstep what the mod should be, though I'll tell you now that he's of the opinion that involved additions are okay for nations that see almost no play in vanilla. I disagree with him on the specifics of this, but I do at least see his point.
Post by: AlStar on July 27, 2017, 09:37:58 am
Astral? (nether bolt/darts, vengeance of the dead)
Air? (corpse constructs)
Earth? (blight, hidden in sand/underneath)
Fire? (bane fire darts, corpse candles)
Nature? (manikins and mandragora)
Blood? (bone fiends)
My first thought was air, since constructs are cheap and easy to mass-produce for the low, low price of a single air gem, although you'd need to summon up some mound kings to command them. Astral seems pretty decent as well - I've just seen the carnage that nether darts can inflict - I can also see some excellent synergy between mass feebleminding and the astral enslave spell. Thoughts?
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 27, 2017, 10:28:40 am
Aiming for combat or summoning spells seems like a general waste of resources. It's just one weak mage - it won't do you that much good neither in combat nor on a summoning duty.
Alternatively, go for Fire so that you may forge Skulls of Fire. But then again, I'd rather get that capability from a Dust Priest I summoned with your E+D mage.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 27, 2017, 02:53:12 pm
1. Cross death and astral for the combat boost. Something like 4 communion slaves, then cast communion master > power of the spheres will let you bring a D1 up to D4 for battle. You'd probably want this to make a gimmick army your opponent doesn't expect, for example making an army based around the darkness spell.
1b. Or if you have national mage with high astral you could convert all those death gems into a pearls. Its not like an astral nation will ever regret having more pearls.
2. Empower up to D2 and make a skull staff, then make a mound king and give him the staff. Then have him make a spare mound king. Bam, you've broken into death. If nothing else you can now dump all your mound fiends into longdead horsemen, but I assume there's better uses.
3. Get a D1. Then mass produce bows or skull talismans and give them to your commanders. Its not like that indy commander was doing anything anyway, might as well spend 5 gems to turn him into a shitty mage. If your death income is more than 5, empower another D1.
3b. If you can get D2 (ideally by trading for a skull staff, then making more skull staffs), your options expand. You can make horror helmets and bane venom charms. You can also make black servants (who I believe will be immune to the charms?), and you'll be able to revive banes to make low-cost thugs out of. Banes aren't particularly great and their bane blade precludes a shield, but on the other hand they cost only 2 gems more than their free bane blade that they don't drop on death. Something like N9 bless shroud of the battle saint and winged boots could make a nice mass produced paratrooper for those surprise invasions. If you want to be cute, you can summon a black servant and make him your prophet, then set him to reviving longdeads forever.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 27, 2017, 02:56:13 pm
2. Empower up to D2 and make a skull staff, then make a mound king and give him the staff. Then have him make a spare mound king.Revenants, you mean.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 27, 2017, 03:06:11 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 27, 2017, 03:18:43 pm
Or am I missing something?
Post by: Frumple on July 27, 2017, 03:32:46 pm
And yeah, black servants are immune to bane venom charms; all undead are, far as I'm aware. One of the games I participated in, that was a good chunk of why the southern players lost to the one that won the north.
... incidentally, it's pretty cheap to outfit a small flock of the things with charms and boots of flying. There's also a couple of N1/N2 items that boost stealth.* Probably a terrible use of spare gems, even if you don't really have enough casters to do much else but build a few pieces of 1A/D/N kit a turn, but damn if it's not amusing to seed someone's lands with a dozen or two flying stealth boosted BVC carriers.
*Comes out to like 10D5A5N for a servant with a charm/boots/that N1 stealth boost armor, iirc. Probably better things to spend that on than crippling someone's gold economy, but it's a'ight.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 27, 2017, 03:33:33 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 27, 2017, 04:47:28 pm
*Comes out to like 10D5A5N for a servant with a charm/boots/that N1 stealth boost armor, iirc. Probably better things to spend that on than crippling someone's gold economy, but it's a'ight.
In a perfect world, you're also rotting random armies and mages.
Post by: Jacob/Lee on August 02, 2017, 11:11:14 pm
A long time ago, I met this rotting Malik called Ditan in the field of battle versus a bunch of my witch hunters and grand masters. They put up a decent fight but eventually routed and Ditan vanished into the fog of war, never to be seen again. Or so I thought...
Spoiler: The horror... (click to show/hide)
Post by: Culise on August 02, 2017, 11:37:50 pm
Post by: Jilladilla on August 02, 2017, 11:43:31 pm
Pillar of Fire inflicts extreme damage (More than enough to batter through that armor and the fire resistance, and still carve a decent chunk out of that mass of HP) and you've almost certainly gotten a decent way into Evocation.
Incinerate will just outright ignore the armor, but it's in Alteration.
Solar Rays could work, but its damage is low, and merely Armor Piercing. It may not do much after going through that much armor.
Of course, there is always the 'Spam ALL the Horror Marks and watch as a Doom Horror eats it' strategy, but that relies a bit on RNGesus, and might be a bit slow for what you need. And also won't do a thing to help the guys who pull off the tactic.
Also, the stupidly high max HP? Prophet boost, lure him outside Ashdod's dominion and it will plummet. No seriously, lure him to where your dominion is strong enough and watch it drop to single digits.
Ditan is effectively a one off Hero unit, one that Ashdod can only get through an event... And the sacrifice of one of their better mages... He's strong, but will be gone for good once you put him down.
Post by: Jacob/Lee on August 03, 2017, 12:16:29 am
He vanished as fast as he came, and now the Hall of Heroes lists him as dead. Hopefully he stays that way. Thanks for the advice, though.
E: I just noticed that the turn report called out a single kill from Purgatory. I really hope that was the one it hit. :P
Post by: Kagus on August 03, 2017, 03:13:10 am
Anyways, now it's obviously time for Ashdod to whip out the hashmalim and the chayot, since using undead against Marignon didn't work out so well (shockingly).
Post by: Jilladilla on August 03, 2017, 03:18:36 am
What in the world is that icon before the dominion spreader candles? Don't think I've even seen that before.
Anyways, now it's obviously time for Ashdod to whip out the hashmalim and the chayot, since using undead against Marignon didn't work out so well (shockingly).
I believe that is the icon for the 'spreads growth scales' trait. It's a thing a few units have, Ditan being one of them. (The icon is mashed up a bit against the reanimation bonus one... Which adds to the confusion...)
Post by: Kagus on August 03, 2017, 09:48:48 am
Hadn't seen the growth spreading before. Not many units with scale-tipping powers in general.
Post by: George_Chickens on August 03, 2017, 10:37:00 am
Post by: Cruxador on August 03, 2017, 11:06:33 am
When crossed swords appear on the map, what does it mean?A fight happened there.
Post by: Jacob/Lee on August 03, 2017, 08:07:49 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on August 04, 2017, 01:36:55 am
The defenders of Ashdod, last territory of the nation of Ashdod, dominion of Inanna, have met their deaths. After casting the Eyes of God, it seems that this is like kicking down a picket fence and reaching a brick wall:That's why scouts are a good idea.On the plus side, the Agarthans need seven points to win and they can get at most six - as long as I hold my two Thrones.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: etgfrog on August 05, 2017, 08:56:38 pm
Post by: Cruxador on August 06, 2017, 01:31:31 am
So I now understand how nasty astral corruption is. After casting it pretty much every global enchantment fell off within 3 turns and I've yet to see any enemy mages. Being able to throw greater horrors around is also pretty amazing since it seems to route almost any mundane army.The downside to Astral Corruption is generally only just that everyone else will want to kill you. However, the balancing effect of this sort of diplomatic concern is routinely overstated. If you can get and keep AC up from a position of non-weakness, it's likely to be a game winner. Of course, you'll likely only get there in an unusually large game anyway, or you'd use your slaves to win the game in a different way earlier.
Post by: Kagus on August 06, 2017, 07:01:29 am
With how much lategame armies rely on mage support and mage summons, turning every non-blood spellcasting into Russian roulette for the caster can make for some very big swings.
Post by: etgfrog on August 06, 2017, 04:46:07 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
On another note is there any AI improvement mods out there?
Post by: Jilladilla on August 15, 2017, 09:32:29 pm
Post by: E. Albright on August 16, 2017, 12:49:31 am
Post by: Jilladilla on August 16, 2017, 01:32:09 am
Not since Dom3. Alas.
Right, thank you. I couldn't remember and didn't have time to check definitively.
Post by: E. Albright on August 16, 2017, 10:33:12 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on August 27, 2017, 10:02:16 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on August 27, 2017, 02:45:53 pm
Post by: Kagus on August 27, 2017, 03:39:16 pm
Post by: Micro102 on September 01, 2017, 05:31:56 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 01, 2017, 06:58:33 pm
This is driving me crazy. I had 3 Global enchantments. Then we hit 5 global enchantments and all the new ones wiped mine out. I try to cast them again but the other global enchantments are overpowering mine. I am putting at least 40 extra gems into them. How many gems does the AI use???I don't know if you can call this a case of the AI being odd here, I don't think many players would use only 40 either, when a late enough for slots to be heavily contested.
Post by: Trekkin on September 02, 2017, 01:17:10 am
Post by: Cruxador on September 02, 2017, 02:13:52 am
I've been playing this more recently, and I have what is probably a newbie question: how do you all keep track of what you're doing with all your units? I understand the mechanics at a microscale level to do things like chain path boosters together or script units in a sensible way, but whenever I try to do that over dozens of provinces I always seem to miss something, and the inefficiencies pile up until I'm swimming in gold or mages or blood slaves or other things that are not themselves directly helping me take provinces while other necessary things are lacking. So how do you handle all the bookkeeping?That's part of why I do an AAR blog, it forces me to think about what I'm doing in greater depth. Aside from cognitive tricks like that, don't forget to spam the [n] key every turn. Between that and the turn's announcements, you should get most things. Just treat every announcement as something that needs a response. So battles take troop movement and training after you watch them, completing research merits considering your research goals, and finding new sites inspires you to look at your incomes and think what else you might spend it on. That kind of thing.
Post by: Radsoc on September 02, 2017, 02:39:36 am
Post by: Cruxador on September 02, 2017, 10:22:03 am
The shortcuts will help you. However, the real management problem is if you have lots of mages and need to cast things in a special order, and carrying that between battles through losses. It's only important enough in multiplayer, but I tend to have to make a commander - spell check list :PAnd on the subject of hot keys, don't nobody forget that you can press Ctrl+a number when hovered over a commander's orders to save those orders to the clipboard, and then press that number again when hovered over a commander's orders in order to paste.
Post by: Trekkin on September 02, 2017, 11:24:36 am
Post by: Frumple on September 02, 2017, 02:23:25 pm
Post by: Jilladilla on September 02, 2017, 04:19:02 pm
And on the subject of hot keys, don't nobody forget that you can press Ctrl+a number when hovered over a commander's orders to save those orders to the clipboard, and then press that number again when hovered over a commander's orders in order to paste.
And you can use Ctrl+s to look at any saved orders, if you don't feel like browsing 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
Post by: Micro102 on September 02, 2017, 05:22:23 pm
This is driving me crazy. I had 3 Global enchantments. Then we hit 5 global enchantments and all the new ones wiped mine out. I try to cast them again but the other global enchantments are overpowering mine. I am putting at least 40 extra gems into them. How many gems does the AI use???I don't know if you can call this a case of the AI being odd here, I don't think many players would use only 40 either, when a late enough for slots to be heavily contested.
Well considering that I am playing a large map with every nation there was plenty of early globals. But either way, how many gems normally get put in?
Post by: Cruxador on September 02, 2017, 07:23:46 pm
Well, it depends. Sometimes people will add no extra gems, if it's early, in order to bait people into countering and using up their pearls. Especially with the toxic globals. But when globals are heavily contested, it's normal to throw in as many gems as you can, which would often be at least a couple hundred.This is driving me crazy. I had 3 Global enchantments. Then we hit 5 global enchantments and all the new ones wiped mine out. I try to cast them again but the other global enchantments are overpowering mine. I am putting at least 40 extra gems into them. How many gems does the AI use???I don't know if you can call this a case of the AI being odd here, I don't think many players would use only 40 either, when a late enough for slots to be heavily contested.
Well considering that I am playing a large map with every nation there was plenty of early globals. But either way, how many gems normally get put in?
Post by: E. Albright on September 02, 2017, 07:56:12 pm
Post by: etgfrog on September 02, 2017, 11:59:29 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 03, 2017, 12:37:29 am
Post by: Trekkin on September 04, 2017, 10:48:05 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 05, 2017, 12:18:19 am
If I can ask another noob question, what do people mean in terms of turns by early-/mid-/lategame now? It seems like dom3 moves a lot faster than dom4, and while I get the general idea of progressing from troops to mages & meatshields / thugs and then on to some nation-specific late-game plan (which is often supercombatants of some variety), I worry I may be undervaluing mage turns and taking too long to get there.There's never anything concrete, but I'd say that in general early game might be the first twoish years and lategame begins somewhere around five. However, when you hit early and late game are more characteristics of what you're doing than the time, and they're really vague anyway. Making sure your mages are always doing something useful is probably more practical than setting timing targets.
Post by: Trekkin on September 05, 2017, 12:34:20 pm
There's never anything concrete, but I'd say that in general early game might be the first twoish years and lategame begins somewhere around five. However, when you hit early and late game are more characteristics of what you're doing than the time, and they're really vague anyway. Making sure your mages are always doing something useful is probably more practical than setting timing targets.
That makes a lot more sense than some of the timelines I've been seeing. I suppose I'm just trying to get a handle on when a given task becomes the most useful thing to do, operating on the logic that ideally one would want to start putting the infrastructure (boosting, blood hunting, etc) for the next thing together before whatever is currently working stops being adequate. For example, by the time my early/mid armies are usually running into trouble, I've often got a number of mages en route that could have spent those turns researching or site searching or whatever, had I known they would be obsolete (or inefficient) by the time they arrived.
Maybe my entire conceptual framework for this is off, but it seems to me that the best way to think about getting a counter to your opponent's turn-X army out on turn X is to plan on building that counter on turn X-Y based on an ongoing Bayesian model of their likely strategy, for which a general timeline is a useful prior. Or am I overthinking this massively?
Post by: Jilladilla on September 05, 2017, 01:48:24 pm
Try not to engage a large hostile player army if you don't have any idea of what it is capable of. But them attacking a 1 PD province would give you that intel.
With a bit (ok, a lot of) familiarity with the spell list, you could figure out their rough research levels from the spells they cast, and checking their mages for gems would give you a rough idea of what 'big spells' they're bringing to the party.
If it's a game where the score graphs are on (or you have a site that reveals the research graph) you could get a vague guesstimate from their research score, though.
Generally, I'd say it's a question of: What does he have; what do I have to bring to the table, what can I research in the next turn or 3 that would have a significant impact, do I have enough ablative territory to accept territory losses to allow me to blob/tech up just a bit more, or am I just able to smash it without expending too much effort?
But that's just me, everyone has a different style/idea of what is fun in this game, I enjoy having to sit back and do extensive sifting through the spell list to sort all of those things out.
Post by: Trekkin on September 05, 2017, 03:44:23 pm
See, I've been using LA Ulm for tutelary purposes, since they have access to both cheap 1S mages (recruit-anywhere, no less) for communions and all the parts of a blood nation except for blood sacrifices. They've also got interesting national spells, their recruitable troops are solid, and their national mages are only mediocre, so I figured I could get used to having to juggle a lot of options with different expiration dates.
So, at a cursory reckoning, I have four options:
1. indie commanders leading crossbows & shields around
2. Iron Priests carrying crystal matrices casting Wind Guide, Flaming Arrows, sundry earth buffs and some of the E/F magma evocations, using Illuminated Ones as communion slaves and crossbows as meat shields/more arrows.
3. Vampires. Big blobs of vampires with boosted vampire lords casting Death and Blood buffs on them, with the Counts handling blood hunting and summoning and supplementary casting.
4. any of the high-end Blood summons leading demons around.
But those are composed of smaller pieces that can be shuffled around and are in some cases mutually exclusive; for example, communions big enough to make 2 work are going to delay researching to high-end Blood/Construction for 4 (and buying the S1s in the first place to get all the evo/thaum/alt needed for 2 quickly is going to slow down 1, which is partly needed to grab provinces for the blood needed for 3-4). Thus why I'm trying to figure out what needs to be in place to make a given thing work and what just makes it work better, which partially depends on being able to project, in a rough way, what my units need to not die on any given turn.
Post by: Cruxador on September 05, 2017, 09:37:01 pm
These things all depend almost entirely on your nation and your specific strategy. Within that context, one way to think of it is to consider what strategy will allow you to win the game, and then rush for that while only focussing on low-investment strategies to keep you from losing before you get there. This is the way a lot of mid-game nations play, with early game nations forgoing the infrastructure development almost entirely and just throwing niefel jarls at any problem that comes up. But if you play this way, you have a core goal and your timeframe is "as soon as possible". Of course, this can get silly, like with the fellow who put Burden of Time out on turn fifteen back before it was nerfed, but as long as you add just enough reasonable moderation to the mix that you don't get obliterated first, it'll win you a war or two. And when it stops working (if you can't win first) then you move on to a new game-winning strategy and everything else becomes a holding action until you get there. This is kind of a simple way to go about it, but it's still basically the flow of the game.There's never anything concrete, but I'd say that in general early game might be the first twoish years and lategame begins somewhere around five. However, when you hit early and late game are more characteristics of what you're doing than the time, and they're really vague anyway. Making sure your mages are always doing something useful is probably more practical than setting timing targets.
That makes a lot more sense than some of the timelines I've been seeing. I suppose I'm just trying to get a handle on when a given task becomes the most useful thing to do, operating on the logic that ideally one would want to start putting the infrastructure (boosting, blood hunting, etc) for the next thing together before whatever is currently working stops being adequate.
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For example, by the time my early/mid armies are usually running into trouble, I've often got a number of mages en route that could have spent those turns researching or site searching or whatever, had I known they would be obsolete (or inefficient) by the time they arrived.A mage is never really obsolete, they don't have to memorize their spells ahead of time. But if your armies are winning already, moving mages to the front line is definitely a waste of research turns. And if moving mages to the front lines is a big time investment, you should consider building or taking more forts nearer to where the fighting is happening, or possibly going for cloud trapeze/teleport/etc if those are available to you.
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Maybe my entire conceptual framework for this is off, but it seems to me that the best way to think about getting a counter to your opponent's turn-X army out on turn X is to plan on building that counter on turn X-Y based on an ongoing Bayesian model of their likely strategy, for which a general timeline is a useful prior. Or am I overthinking this massively?You're not overthinking until you've thought twice as much as all the other players combined. Dominions is a game that's won or lost based on planning. But if you try to be predictive like that, there's you should definitely be wary of committing too much unless you're really certain you know what they're doing, because you can definitely waste a lot of resources on them if you miss-guess. Specific counters are great, but versatility also shouldn't be underestimated, not only because it can deny your enemy specific counters to your stuff, but because you'll want to be prepared if an additional enemy decides to get involved.
tl;dr: Plan ahead for your own game-winning actions, but don't plan too much for specific enemy actions.
Try not to engage a large hostile player army if you don't have any idea of what it is capable of. But them attacking a 1 PD province would give you that intel.I wouldn't say you should avoid engagement entirely, just avoid engaging with any army you'd mind losing. It can be effective to harass a big army using thugs or battlefield wiping spells, even if you haven't seen much of their script yet, just as you might roll over a small army without expecting them to have a particularly nasty surprise waiting for you.
With a bit (ok, a lot of) familiarity with the spell list, you could figure out their rough research levels from the spells they cast, and checking their mages for gems would give you a rough idea of what 'big spells' they're bringing to the party.
If it's a game where the score graphs are on (or you have a site that reveals the research graph) you could get a vague guesstimate from their research score, though.
Generally, I'd say it's a question of: What does he have; what do I have to bring to the table, what can I research in the next turn or 3 that would have a significant impact, do I have enough ablative territory to accept territory losses to allow me to blob/tech up just a bit more, or am I just able to smash it without expending too much effort?
But that's just me, everyone has a different style/idea of what is fun in this game, I enjoy having to sit back and do extensive sifting through the spell list to sort all of those things out.
The point about ablative territory is also a good one. In a war, don't be afraid to retreat for a time.
That's kind of my problem: being able to balance adaptability with the mechanics of force multipliers or synergy requires some concept of the atomic components of a given strategy, and that's wrapped up in my timeline question, since parts of a given idea come online sooner than others.Just from this, I can't conclusively say I understand what you're talking about, but I'll deal with your specific examples more.
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1. indie commanders leading crossbows & shields aroundAlways do this, and do it for as long as it works. Even when it stops working in pitched battles, do it for raiding. This doesn't cost you anything except gold, and gold is also what it gives you.
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2. Iron Priests carrying crystal matrices casting Wind Guide, Flaming Arrows, sundry earth buffs and some of the E/F magma evocations, using Illuminated Ones as communion slaves and crossbows as meat shields/more arrows.Avoid doing this as much as possible unless it'll win or lose the game for you. This costs mages and gems, which are what you need to win. You can get by in the mid-game with a few of these, and hopefully win a war with as few as two or three armies like this, and not that many iron priests or slaves per army. Especially if you rely more on the buffs than the evocations, though evocations are always nice as well. But if you've got enough thrones in close range, secretly prepare a few more armies like this and take them, and take the game. This could win you a mid-game victory, but it could just be the thing that keeps you alive until the late game. If it's going to be the latter, don't invest any more than you need to in order to win the wars your in. And of course, never be in less than one war for long, though that's a slightly different issue.
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3. Vampires. Big blobs of vampires with boosted vampire lords casting Death and Blood buffs on them, with the Counts handling blood hunting and summoning and supplementary casting.By the time you can do this, do this. Vampires are an excellent defensive strategy since they're immortal. Get enough vampires that you can destroy any army before they reach something important, and take whatever's in your dominion. Without blood sacrifices, you can't push your dominion as well as some nations, but it's still more than worth it.
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4. any of the high-end Blood summons leading demons around.You'll want these as well, for offensive play, but as with the mid game armies, have just enough to win unless it's the last war of the game or you're sure you've got enough vampires for the foreseeable future.
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But those are composed of smaller pieces that can be shuffled around and are in some cases mutually exclusive; for example, communions big enough to make 2 work are going to delay researching to high-end Blood/Construction for 4 (and buying the S1s in the first place to get all the evo/thaum/alt needed for 2 quickly is going to slow down 1, which is partly needed to grab provinces for the blood needed for 3-4). Thus why I'm trying to figure out what needs to be in place to make a given thing work and what just makes it work better, which partially depends on being able to project, in a rough way, what my units need to not die on any given turn.After the first year, you should pretty much never let anything get in the way of your mage recruitment. If you've snapped up all (or almost all) of the indy provinces in the expansion phase, don't pay for any crossbows that'll keep you from recruiting mages. If you have to lose research, it'll be more effective to deploy those mages than to get something besides them anyway. The research issue is a stickier problem, and that's why it's often good to plan according to your game size, aim for a midgame victory on the back of strategy 2 if there's less than maybe eight players. In a bigger game, you still probably want to to some degree, but once you've got all of the research that's strictly necessary for that, dive into blood. The delay on your blood lategame will be less from researching other things than the gain will be from taking other people's land, assuming you win your wars. It's still better to switch to the late game strategy too early than too late though, because you can always switch back to the late game trees to make rapid progress, and anyway you'll want those support spells on your late game armies as well.
Post by: E. Albright on September 05, 2017, 10:36:05 pm
You're not overthinking until you've thought twice as much as all the other players combined.
[...]
tl;dr: Plan ahead for your own game-winning actions, but don't plan too much for specific enemy actions.
This is true if and only if you can avoid telegraphing your plans, because if you do, then following long-term plans means you're giving your enemies the maximum amount of advance warning to react to it. If you're working towards an uncounterable plan this obviously doesn't apply, but generally the idea of there being an uncounterable plan doesn't apply either - and when it does, it typically does because what you were doing in the mean time already neutered potential counters and you're counting coup.
Be flexible. Diplomacy can ruin the best plan even if you've out-thought every other single player in the game.
Post by: Culise on September 05, 2017, 11:15:58 pm
Post by: Trekkin on September 05, 2017, 11:39:32 pm
[/quote]That's kind of my problem: being able to balance adaptability with the mechanics of force multipliers or synergy requires some concept of the atomic components of a given strategy, and that's wrapped up in my timeline question, since parts of a given idea come online sooner than others.Just from this, I can't conclusively say I understand what you're talking about, but I'll deal with your specific examples more.
Thanks; your analysis makes things much clearer.
Regarding diplomacy, though, would I be wrong in thinking that planning around diplomacy requires some way to evaluate what any given thing (peace, hammers, etc.) is worth to you relative to the other players at any given time? "Include diplomacy in your planning" is certainly very good advice, but by itself it's actionable only in vague terms.
Post by: Cruxador on September 06, 2017, 12:07:38 am
Yeah, I agree with all of these things but I would consider diplomacy to be kind of a separate thing from strategy. You always, diplomatically, have the same goals. You want to appear strong where you're weak and weak where you're strong, you want to have your potential enemies fighting each other and expending their strength while you build yours, you want to gang up on the stronger players and eat them up until you're the strongest player, and then you don't want to be ganged up on. Concealing your true intentions is a matter of course, but a competent player can infer a lot from your nation and your pretender paths. Rather than focusing on making your own motives impossible to discern (that's a losing battle unless you do nothing to further your own ends) it's better to avoid being the center of attention. Let your neighbors instead focus on what some other shmuck is doing, while you build up untouched. Of course, obscuring your progress helps there and you don't want to brag about your research, but there's only so much you can do to conceal your achievements.You're not overthinking until you've thought twice as much as all the other players combined.
[...]
tl;dr: Plan ahead for your own game-winning actions, but don't plan too much for specific enemy actions.
This is true if and only if you can avoid telegraphing your plans, because if you do, then following long-term plans means you're giving your enemies the maximum amount of advance warning to react to it. If you're working towards an uncounterable plan this obviously doesn't apply, but generally the idea of there being an uncounterable plan doesn't apply either - and when it does, it typically does because what you were doing in the mean time already neutered potential counters and you're counting coup.
Be flexible. Diplomacy can ruin the best plan even if you've out-thought every other single player in the game.
Regarding diplomacy, though, would I be wrong in thinking that planning around diplomacy requires some way to evaluate what any given thing (peace, hammers, etc.) is worth to you relative to the other players at any given time? "Include diplomacy in your planning" is certainly very good advice, but by itself it's actionable only in vague terms.Don't think of diplomacy as a quid pro quo. Your goal is not for everyone to get a fair deal. Your goal is to make temporary friends in order to screw a third party even harder than you're planning to screw each other at the first possible opportunity. It may be impossible to meaningfully plan until you've seen the map, but then you can at least come up with such timeless strategems as "I'll fuel hatred of elves in the hope that people will get riled up against them and I can steal some Eriu land". And then come up with specific ways to do that. Trading for peace is rarely worth it (though it can be if you're not done expanding or you're overpowered on all sides) since it's only going to let the disadvantaged party get a foothold and become a threat again, and trading for things like hammers is relatively minor with regards to the overall political situation of the game.
Post by: Culise on September 06, 2017, 12:18:22 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 06, 2017, 12:34:49 am
More broadly, once you figure out the game and the basics of diplomacy just go out and actively argue for what you want. Think of it kind of like a game of mafia. There's strategy to it, but at the end of the day you're trying to get people to gang up on others and not gang up on you. When the noose comes out its always better to go kicking and screaming instead of silently. For example, let's say you're scouting around in the lands of a nation you don't share a border with, and you notice an unexpectedly powerful/magicked up army. You have no real stake in this, but let's say you just casually mention it to your neighbor that DOES share a border with them. Your neighbor might respond with a helpful tidbit, maybe something like "yeah, they found a fire site 2 turns into the game" or "I know, I've been at war with them for 6 turns." Bam, free info about the game and that player's intentions. Even if not, at least you've built up a mildly friendly relationship. Other players are still human, if they think of you as a friendly face they'll be more likely to invade someone who's been silent. Or let's say two people attack you at the same time, one all out and the other opportunistically. Then you kill one of the main attacker's armies in a crushing victory. So you start spamming the opportunistic attacker every other turn with requests to end the war. You tell them you're crushing their ally, you tell them they can keep the 3 provinces they took if they don't keep going, you point out how threatening that neighbor is to the north or offer them a monthly tribute of gems to go away. 90% of the time, that attacker isn't going to listen to you. But if you say nothing, there's a 0% chance you'll get your way. And if you've been arguing your case the whole time and their ally hasn't, maybe when that neighbor to the north does make his move they'll call back their armies and leave their ally to fend for himself. That being said, you probs won't get your way and this is the most annoying thing about Dom4, at reasonable equal skill levels/faction OPness, getting ganged up on is generally a game over before the first spell is cast.
Oh, and one of the best things you can do with diplomacy isn't to control who fights you. Its to get other people to fight each other. They'll be more receptive to those kinds of talks, although its still best if they think it was their own idea. Talking about how OP a faction or spell is on the forum is a time honored strategy. Oh and not all diplomacy is necessarily a trick, if someone wants to trade info or whatever it can benefit you to go along with the conversation. Finally, try not to leave massed troops or 0/1 PD on any of your borders. One of those things sends the message "I'm about to invade", the other, "I'm easy prey." A fort near the border with mages and a medium amount of troops is a nice goldilocks. Leaving mages in forts is extremely common, and its also pretty common to leave expansion forces in forts once there are no more neutral provinces. Thus your intentions are masked and your enemies given little info.
Post by: Cruxador on September 06, 2017, 01:32:13 pm
Or let's say two people attack you at the same time, one all out and the other opportunistically. Then you kill one of the main attacker's armies in a crushing victory. So you start spamming the opportunistic attacker every other turn with requests to end the war. You tell them you're crushing their ally, you tell them they can keep the 3 provinces they took if they don't keep going, you point out how threatening that neighbor is to the north or offer them a monthly tribute of gems to go away. 90% of the time, that attacker isn't going to listen to you.Well, part of the reason for that 90% failure rate is because you're only offering them stuff that they'd also get if they kept fighting you. Instead, try offering a non-zero sum, and an alternative. Suggest a mutual neighbor that the two of you could attack together, instead. That will give them provinces from a third enemy who they are then fighting together with another person (since you've neutralized the main enemy in your war) and will leave them the opportunity to conquer you some more afterward, but also gives you the opportunity to get your feet back under you. Although if you've beaten the main enemy, you may be better off just rebuffing the opportunist militarily before doing any kind of negotiation.
But if you say nothing, there's a 0% chance you'll get your way. And if you've been arguing your case the whole time and their ally hasn't, maybe when that neighbor to the north does make his move they'll call back their armies and leave their ally to fend for himself. That being said, you probs won't get your way and this is the most annoying thing about Dom4, at reasonable equal skill levels/faction OPness, getting ganged up on is generally a game over before the first spell is cast.
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Finally, try not to leave massed troops or 0/1 PD on any of your borders.What? How many PD do you think should be on the border then?
Post by: Jilladilla on September 06, 2017, 02:27:57 pm
Really, PD is good for two things in my opinion: Stopping scouts from taking your provinces in a SURPRISE! 'alpha-strike', and as emergency chaff, although that bit is really only relevant to a few nations with excellent national PD...
And still, 1 is good enough to take out a scout or two, and 6 is enough to stop a cluster of them. Trying to safeguard all of your territories from stealth armies/raiders/flyers with PD is usually a silly proposition.
Still, ALWAYS use at least 1 PD on all of your provinces. If you don't then you're just asking for someone to put a scout on all of your undefended territories and then claiming them all at once when they basically declare war. It won't hurt your armies but it will kill your income for a few turns..
Post by: AlStar on September 06, 2017, 03:02:16 pm
Definitely don't leave 0 PD anywhere - as others have already said, it's basically begging your opponent to steal them en-masse - and, worst of all - you won't even know how they did it. 1 gold at least gets you a combat report.
Personally, I like 4 PD in the average province - 10 gold cost, and can usually kill a troop or two of an invading army, paying for itself.
Post by: E. Albright on September 06, 2017, 03:45:25 pm
On a less fringe note: aside from confusing scouts as to how much PD you have (as PD6 has the same message as PD19), PD6 is a lot less likely to die to a flock of hawks or ghouls than PD1. That can make a big difference in your ability to respond to an alpha strike setting off an invasion.
Post by: Kagus on September 06, 2017, 04:36:37 pm
Post by: Marmaduke on September 06, 2017, 04:42:39 pm
Post by: etgfrog on September 06, 2017, 06:04:44 pm
Alternative is EA fomoria with their size 4 scouts.
Post by: Kagus on September 06, 2017, 06:16:38 pm
As far as beef goes, Jotunheim of course has those delicious woodsmen, but I don't think anyone actually uses those guys as scouts, despite them technically filling the role (and one being granted to you at game start as your "free scout"). Ur has a nice blend of being only a bit more expensive than normal scouts, recruit-anywhere(!), as well as having gone to the gym once or twice. EA Agartha has a pink slab of meat they can send out, but it's even better at getting killed than the bog standard humie variant. MA Man foresters are about as badass as humans can get, and you just KNOW they're packing some pretty mighty beards underneath those pixels, even though, again, not really a sensible mainstay for actual scouting duty (that goes to the monks, along with every other oddjob MA Man can think of).
Post by: Cruxador on September 06, 2017, 06:29:15 pm
As Jilladilla mentions, certain types of PD are vulnerable to multiple-scout raids even when they're a bit higher than 1, but that's a rather fringe tactic (albeit an entertaining one).Eh, if you use lots of PD6 people are going to know that's what you did even if technically the message could be a lot more. Although if you use only one, they may assume it's 11 thanks to +10PD events. In this regard, five PD may be best since it could theoretically kill a bunch of scouts attacking you without them realizing that they're doomed before the attack, but that's super niche for the gold cost.
On a less fringe note: aside from confusing scouts as to how much PD you have (as PD6 has the same message as PD19), PD6 is a lot less likely to die to a flock of hawks or ghouls than PD1. That can make a big difference in your ability to respond to an alpha strike setting off an invasion.
Post by: E. Albright on September 06, 2017, 07:10:45 pm
And on the subject of events, there's a handful of common bad invasion/revolt events that only hit you if your PD is no higher than 3-5. The next lowest cutoff for this is 10, and it only prevents one other common one.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 07, 2017, 02:48:15 am
Oh and when you start diplomacy with the enemy army at your door, its mostly to late.
Much like in Magic EDH games, the way you play tells so much - if you roll up to 2 players with armys and crush them, next to plain view of the other 4-6 players, you will a hard time hiding that in nice words.
If you barly surive a slaughter and then take the enemy capital, that seems fine.
I for one don't usually have winning as nr. objective. Infact, I just enjoy being really hard to kill and very much not worth it to slow down the good/power Players.
Post by: Gigalith on September 07, 2017, 07:20:41 am
Who has the fiercest scouts? (I believe the scoutest scout are those harpies.)
Xibalba's (at least LA Xibalba) scouts can not only fly, but can lead small armies of stealthy bats. Great for all your raiding needs. (Of course, you can just use Ajaws for the same thing...)
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 07, 2017, 07:29:15 am
Monkey people get an honorable mention for their scouts canonically being annoying little gits, and they also have something like +40 stealth on account of being a rhesus macaqueThey also have Atavi chieftains recruitable in every forest. In those same forests one can hire 5-10 stealthy Atavi, and send them all together as scouts. Should be able to take care of 1-2 Pd with robust reliability.
Post by: Cruxador on September 07, 2017, 09:56:20 am
I for one don't usually have winning as nr. objective. Infact, I just enjoy being really hard to kill and very much not worth it to slow down the good/power Players.In other words, trolling.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 07, 2017, 09:58:43 am
No, trolling is when you find a troll pit, buy 40 trolls, forge a gate stone, and start teleporting around the map.I for one don't usually have winning as nr. objective. Infact, I just enjoy being really hard to kill and very much not worth it to slow down the good/power Players.In other words, trolling.
Post by: E. Albright on September 07, 2017, 11:49:39 am
I thought it was 7 or something.
2 common bad invasion events have a max PD of 5, 1 has a max of 4, and 2 have a max of 3. There are also single uncommon bad invasion events for 3 and 5. Max 10 adds a common revolt event. Past that it's uncommons at 15-20, or PD is disregarded.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 08, 2017, 02:08:34 am
I for one don't usually have winning as nr. objective. Infact, I just enjoy being really hard to kill and very much not worth it to slow down the good/power Players.In other words, trolling.
Trolling
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 08, 2017, 03:55:43 am
My point was more, you should have something within a province or two of the border. Even if its just one of your old expansion armies. Or a fort with enough troops/mages that they could sally forth if the fort is bypassed. A completely undefended border leaves me nervous is all I'm saying...QuoteFinally, try not to leave massed troops or 0/1 PD on any of your borders.What? How many PD do you think should be on the border then?
Post by: E. Albright on September 08, 2017, 12:11:25 pm
TrollingSpoiler (click to show/hide)
I'd agree that not playing in a maximally aggressive manner is hardly trolling, even if it may make the game more difficult for players who base their strategy on facing players who behave and rationalize more or less identically to themselves. That's a slippery slope ending in "L2P nub".
Post by: George_Chickens on September 08, 2017, 11:16:49 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 08, 2017, 11:39:37 pm
Is Ashpodel a viable multiplayer nation?Every nation is viable. Even EA R'lyeh, in the vanilla game, has had a victory. As far as statistical history of successes, Asphodel* is in the bottom quarter.
*Like the flower that grows near the Styx, not like ashes. Clarifying since a lot of people don't know the source of the name.
Post by: etgfrog on September 09, 2017, 02:23:40 am
Post by: Kagus on September 09, 2017, 05:32:51 am
I thought the coastal options of EA R'lyeh were a pretty neat idea, and having special coastal troops seemed like a nice way to help the primarily water-locked nation get a foothold on land. ...but even the trooper androleths are a bit "meh". Sure, they're walking mind blasters, but compared to MA and LA illithids they cost the same amount of gold for exactly half the HP, less than half the natural armor, 2 less MR (still reasonable at 13), and a MASSIVE weakness to decay or other age-based attacks.
Their only real improvement over the illithids is the fact that they have 14 points of body armor, thanks to that bronze cuirass they're toting around. However, this pumps their resource cost up to 16 for a nation that otherwise doesn't really have any particular use for resources, while illies still have the base 1 res cost. This would be tolerable, even awesome if they got a matching cap, but no... No such luck. Still just a teensy widdle 2 armor on the head of a 14 health, size 2 weakling with no shield and that costs 50 gold.
The main thing the androdai have is that special little mind-meld they can do, which seems to be less about getting some heavy astral firepower on land and more about shifting a big mind lord's S-ranks into a form that can wear/hold astral boosters better than the space slug can. But unless I'm mistaken, pumping S up to really high levels is generally about plopping down globals, which is exactly what you don't want to do with an androdai thanks to them being reasonably squishy (although perhaps no more so than the usual magely type), and having a natural lifespan of only five years (considerably LESS than the usual magely type).
Remember also that natural age variation can result in you recruiting an androdai to discover that it's already 3 years old... Even discounting the time it takes to move them into a province with a mind lord and then performing the ritual, that really doesn't give you a lot of time for a global to be up before the caster starts playing the old-age Russian roulette, completely without needing outside influence.
I think perhaps that my biggest disappointment with that whole system is that only the astral levels get transferred... If a particular mind lord has a good spread of other schools, none of that comes through in the androdai. Sure, I suppose being able to transfer the magical abilities of a 420g STR cap-only fellow into the head of a 190g "throwaway" mage would perhaps be a bit overkill, but c'mon... So many fun tactics you could pull out if you were able to do that.
...oh, hey, wouldja lookit that... Would appear that the androleths even have a slightly less powerful form of mind blast than the stock-standard illithids do. Yay.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 09, 2017, 05:58:20 am
Transformation does everything that spell wants to do, better. The air/water item handles things better, too.
The idea of stuffing several slug-minds into a human vessel would be great, with plenty of options for horror marks and other stuff ("Event trigger: A unit with over 20 astral magic dies") -> The Fabric of time and space is damaged and horrors leak into all provinces until the gap is closed by killing the GATE WATCHER.
Post by: etgfrog on September 09, 2017, 07:09:06 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 10, 2017, 12:30:04 am
So I was trying out EA R'lyeh, they have 10% insane commanders and one of the orders they have is "That is not a star."Probably referring to the "star" that crashes into R'lyeh in between EA and MA. It's definitely not an ordinary star since it's full of illithids, who we can infer were using it as something like a space ship.
Post by: etgfrog on September 10, 2017, 02:04:46 am
I'm aware of that, I just found it funny that the insane commanders know its going to happen.So I was trying out EA R'lyeh, they have 10% insane commanders and one of the orders they have is "That is not a star."Probably referring to the "star" that crashes into R'lyeh in between EA and MA. It's definitely not an ordinary star since it's full of illithids, who we can infer were using it as something like a space ship.
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2017, 07:51:15 am
So I was trying out EA R'lyeh, they have 10% insane commanders and one of the orders they have is "That is not a star.""That's no moon!"
RE: Scooty scoots. I feel EA Machaka could do with an honorable mention here as well, since they get a 75g sacred spy, making it the lowest-upkeep recruitable spy in the game (the generic spy and MA T'ien Ch'i's imperial consorts are cheaper up front, but they're not sacred). Spies are pretty neat.
MA Machaka bumps the cost up to 90g, but gives them an actual level in holy rather than just being a dead-end sacred... But if you're doing spy stuff you're not preaching, and if you're preaching you're not doing spy stuff. Monks all the way, man.
Post by: Jilladilla on September 11, 2017, 01:42:52 pm
I'll post the basic new features list here, and post some commentary on some of the big features for those of you who don't want to or can't follow the link below it. Also, there should be a proper Dom5 thread started up soon by me for all things Dom5, this is the Dom4 thread after all, don't want to drown out the legitimate questions for help in all of the hype after all.
New Features! (Copy/Pasted from the site)
-Real time combat
-Per unit combat logs
-Design your pretender's bless effect
-Priest's banishment and smite spells will depend on what type of god he follows
-History playback when game is over, see how dominion spread and provinces changed owners
-New random maps with bridges and better looking terrains
-New resource system with recruitment points that encourages recruiting in highly populated areas
-Fortifications built by starting at the basic type, then upgrading it later
-New research queue, researching is now one school at a time
-New movement system
-Winter shown on map and affects movement
-Dominion overlay on map to clearly show its boundaries
-New retreat system, good leaders can prevent units from dispersing in all directions
-Updated user interface with information more clearly presented than before
-New 3d-engine with better looking terrain, huge performance increase for good graphics cards
-More reliable network, now works on less than perfect connections too
-New nations
-Some old nations have been reworked and updated
-More spells, magic items, special abilities, events, monsters, titles, thrones, ....
Real time combat!
The turn based system is gone! No longer do you have to fear advancing into Turn 1 Rain of Stones or Earthquake Spam!
Both sides go simultaneously, and unit attack order is based upon RNG. Also, spells now have a casting time, and there was mentions of being able to interrupt a spell if you damage the caster too.
Oh right, you also get to see the glory of all your fireballs being launched. At the same time.
Finally, shields can be broken if hit really hard now.
Design your Bless!
No longer does a N9E4 Pretender mean your bless is 10% regen, +8 max hp, and -2 fatigue/turn!
It now operates under a point-buy system, with your points dependent on your magic paths! So a N9E4 pretender has 9 nature points and 4 earth points to spend. At least, that's what I interpreted from one of the screenshots anyway. Some bless effects are quite cheap, for instance said screenshot showed a 'Magic Weapons' bless effect for 2S, so Rainbow Pretenders just got more viable, as X4 isn't the minimum for a bless effect anymore.
It also bears noting that the more powerful bless effects require your Pretender to be physically present in the world to take effect; if they're busy napping, being imprisoned, or just plain dead, your sacred units will not benefit from that bless effect! At the same time, some effects are passive, and will affect your sacred units even if they aren't blessed! Waterbreathing and 'Larger' were some examples presented of these.
With this system, you never know if that F9 god has one or two really big effects or a bunch of little ones, which makes things more fun!
Oh right, while technically not related to blessings, but your priests will get fun new spells based on your Pretenders magic paths. It'd make sense for a priest of a god of fire to be able to burn things yeah?
Recruitment and Command Points
Recruitment is a new resource attached to provinces just like income and resources, and will represent just how many people the province can spare to join your armies.
It's fairly simple, isn't it? A province with 50 iron mines but only 100 people just wouldn't be able to spare the manpower to join the army, in spite of being able to produce more than enough equipment to outfit an entire legion in just a month!
Forts can boost the recruitment points available, but no news on if it can pull it from adjacent provinces like they do for resources.
One last thing: Calvary will no longer cost as much gold, instead they will use up additional recruitment points!
With the introduction of Command Points, Slow to Recruit seems to be a thing of the past; it seems to be technically possible to recruit multiple commanders per province per turn now, but no confirmation.
Scouts, normal commanders, and weak priests will only cost 1 command point, according to the preview info, but mages and stronger priests will cost 2 command points. Exceptionally strong mages, likely those that are currently StR, will cost 4.
That being said provinces will only have 1 command point by default, forts (not palisades apparantly) can raise it to 2, with Citadels being able to give a province 3 Command Points per turn. The mention of mages that cost 4 Command Points implies that these will work like resources, so you'll be able to recruit your mages from a palisade even if they cost 2 or 3 points, you just have to accept only being able to recruit one every 2 or 3 turns.
And speaking of forts, you can't just start building a citadel now, you have to start from the bottom, and then upgrade the fort to the higher tier options.
Release Date? OMG JILLADILLA WHEN IS THE RELEASE DATE?!
They said that if everything goes as planned that they will release in the beginning of November on Steam, with PC, Mac, and Linux versions being released simultaneously. Oh, and they said that there is more information on changes that will be released in the days to come, so stay tuned!
Post by: AlStar on September 11, 2017, 01:58:03 pm
I wonder how the simultaneous movement/firing is going to work for spells and arrows - will archers/wizards be smart enough to take into account the fact that their targets are moving? Will some spells (hello, vine arrow) still be crazy slow when flying across the battlefield, and will casters take that into consideration?
I really, really like the idea of buyable bless and bless affecting priestly powers. Always seemed silly to me that all priests were functionally the same, even though one might be representing a god of fertility while another is serving a god of death, they both called down beams of holy light on their targets.
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2017, 02:30:10 pm
Post by: Culise on September 11, 2017, 03:02:33 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 11, 2017, 03:44:36 pm
I wonder how the simultaneous movement/firing is going to work for spells and arrows - will archers/wizards be smart enough to take into account the fact that their targets are moving? Will some spells (hello, vine arrow) still be crazy slow when flying across the battlefield, and will casters take that into consideration?I'm not in the beta, but from someone who is, it works fine.
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I really, really like the idea of buyable bless and bless affecting priestly powers. Always seemed silly to me that all priests were functionally the same, even though one might be representing a god of fertility while another is serving a god of death, they both called down beams of holy light on their targets.It's technically not the bless that does this, but the pretender paths. The water smite is pretty cool, it does 10+ damage and then another 10+ drowning damage to creatures that breath.
Post by: nenjin on September 11, 2017, 03:48:12 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 11, 2017, 03:49:36 pm
I like the new fonts. But I'm a font nerd, and Dom has been using the same shit fonts for at least 2 games now.I'm a font nerd too and I see no grounds on which to like the new ones.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 11, 2017, 03:52:45 pm
Real time combat sounds like it could shake the metagame up but it's something I'd have to see in action before deciding on anything. How does defence reduction from multiple attacks work now? Does it stack until the unit moves again? Work on a timer? What about fatigue? Not to mention aiming ranged attacks and the like, which AlStar has already pointed out. What about hold and attack orders, buffs and so on? Is timing going to be even trickier to sort out now that it's in real time? How does this all affect common army compositions and counters, like dual-wielding units taking down giants and the like? Arrow spam to cut down light infantry?
In contrast I have no doubt that the new bless mechanics will shake up the game. Rainbows are going to be more viable than they are right now since they'll have a host of cheap blessings instead of one, two or even none, since a minor bless no longer requires at least 4 points in a path. I doubt that a host of small blesses can compare to a couple of massive ones, of course, but any advantage is better than none. For example, having magic weapons on your sacred units (at just 2 points of Astral) will help against Sceleria and their Shadow Vestals or anyone else with ethereal units. On the other side of things, incarnate blesses means that you can't just set your pretender as Imprisoned to pay for a massive bless and semi-decent scales anymore. You have to think about when your pretender will show up to activate those powerful blesses that you paid for. So either you set them as awaken and suffer through terrible scales by invading your neighbours or make them sleep until you need them in the mid-game. I doubt that these changes will result in the fall of Earth/Nature being dominant for blesses since reinvigoration and regen will undoubtedly require those paths. Hopefully it'll weaken the dominance of those blesses, probably by making them incarnate and needing your pretender to be around for them to work, or at the very least enable you to splash some other stuff on your pretender instead of being locked into EXN9. I wouldn't be surprised if, say, E5N6 or something similar got you the regen and reinvigoration you wanted, which should free up points for better scales or a handful of additional magic for another blessing. Basically something like that to make blesses less stale and/or predictable.
Also, the recruitment revamp intrigues me. Recruitment points should make the bat-folk and similar nations less powerful in the early game since they can't swarm as easily as they do now. High resource units won't be hampered as by this change, since you still aren't going to recruit many unless you're Ulm or someone else with resource generating commanders. Hopefully the cheaper cavalry won't require obscene amounts of recruitment points either or else they still aren't going to see much play. The introduction of commander points is going to be the real game changer for recruitment, I think, since (from what I understand) even a piddly 1 magic mage requires 2 of them to be recruited. So it's no longer 1 fort = 1 commander, which in Dom 4 is going to be a mage 9 times out of 10. In Dom 5 it's going 1 fort = 1~3 commander points. Which is to say 0.5~1.5 mages, because people are still going to invest most of their commander points into mage power. But since national generals and scouts cost half of a mage fort-turn wise, I'd imagine that they'd see more use than right now. Giving up recruiting a mage to get two generals or scouts/assassins is a more favourable than only getting one after all. Having only 8 commanders out of 10 being a mage is still an improvement after all. Balance is going to be a major issue with commander points, I think. If building a second palisade is cheaper than upgrading one to a fortress then why bother upgrading if it's just going to take more gold/time and result in the same mage production? How is this going to impact, say, Mictlan and other nations that can only build palisades? Or are they going to be able to build fortresses as well now to keep pace with everyone? At the very least I'm sure that spamming palisades everywhere and recruiting cheap evocation spammers everywhere is going to be a viable strategy for the early game. Either some nation will have weak mages that require only 1 commander point to recruit or those path-based priest spells will enable cheap priests to fulfill the same role. Either way I'm interested in seeing how it'll turn out.
With all that said... As hyped as I am for the game, I get the feeling that it's going to be to Dom 4 as 4 was to 3. Not a massive improvement or change but enough of an iteration that most people will play it instead. Given how much time I spent with Dominions 4, not just playing but also strategizing and theorycrafting, I'm sure it'll be worth the money to upgrade. I'm just not sure that everyone else would feel the same way though.
EDIT: I found this thread with more info about the features in Dom 5. (https://forum.quartertothree.com/t/dominions-5-warriors-of-the-faith/131532/18) Lots of juicy details here. I'm still looking over them all.
EDIT2: Magic forging paths and gem costs are not longer as tightly intertwined. Get hyped.
Post by: nenjin on September 11, 2017, 04:16:02 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 11, 2017, 04:18:21 pm
Post by: Culise on September 11, 2017, 04:28:18 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 11, 2017, 04:31:31 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2017, 04:48:12 pm
I was wondering why Dom 4 hasn't received any updates for a while. Now I know it's because they've been working on Dominions 5.
I'll admit I was getting suspicious on this point, not because of update frequency, but the scope and type of changes was starting to look a lot more like that. No KO, and most of the JK changes were bug fixes, laser-focused simple stuff, or things general enough that they could be arising from shared resource libraries...
With all that said... As hyped as I am for the game, I get the feeling that it's going to be to Dom 4 as 4 was to 3.
I'm tempted to put this as potentially being more Dom1->Dom2 than Dom3->Dom4. It's still iterative, but the iterations are affecting systems at a much lower level.
Post by: Cruxador on September 11, 2017, 05:06:37 pm
since a minor bless no longer requires at least 4 points in a path.No, it does. You can spend less points than that at a time, but you still need four ranks in the path to get any points.
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since reinvigoration and regen will undoubtedly require those paths.I can confirm that they do, though there are separate versions of regen for undead and for constructs that are in D and E respectively.
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Hopefully it'll weaken the dominance of those blesses, probably by making them incarnate and needing your pretender to be around for them to work, or at the very least enable you to splash some other stuff on your pretender instead of being locked into EXN9. I wouldn't be surprised if, say, E5N6 or something similar got you the regen and reinvigoration you wanted, which should free up points for better scales or a handful of additional magic for another blessing. Basically something like that to make blesses less stale and/or predictable.Regen is N8 and Reinvig is E2 (per point) currently, though of course this is subject to change during the beta.
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But since national generals and scouts cost half of a mage fort-turn wise, I'd imagine that they'd see more use than right now. Giving up recruiting a mage to get two generals or scouts/assassins is a more favourable than only getting one after all. Having only 8 commanders out of 10 being a mage is still an improvement after all.You say that, but I still see no reason why I wouldn't rather go for more mages in most situations.
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How is this going to impact, say, Mictlan and other nations that can only build palisades? Or are they going to be able to build fortresses as well now to keep pace with everyone?Those limitations are still in place. Notably, Pangaea now has a national spell (for... 35N gems? I think, this is my memory now) that builds a palisade.
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With all that said... As hyped as I am for the game, I get the feeling that it's going to be to Dom 4 as 4 was to 3. Not a massive improvement or change but enough of an iteration that most people will play it instead.I mean, isn't that what we all want though? How much more different could it be without becoming contentious?
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EDIT: I found this thread with more info about the features in Dom 5. (https://forum.quartertothree.com/t/dominions-5-warriors-of-the-faith/131532/18) Lots of juicy details here. I'm still looking over them all.I'd recommend taking some of that list with a grain of salt, as the thing about placing units on the walls, at the very least, is misleading.
Post by: etgfrog on September 11, 2017, 05:42:03 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 11, 2017, 05:52:38 pm
I like the new fonts. But I'm a font nerd, and Dom has been using the same shit fonts for at least 2 games now.I'm a font nerd too and I see no grounds on which to like the new ones.
I missed this before.
I'm not saying I like all the new fonts. More I was talking about the Olde English font on the Pretender title bar.
The rest of what's on the game looks like....a mix of Arial and TNR? Kinda looks like they're testing out different fonts on different screens, because it's different between text descriptions, titles and the map text in some places.
What I didn't like about the old Dominions font is it was very thick. No real serifs and it made for thick blocks of uninteresting, workman-like text.
This actually looks like True Type Font. Which means it's possibly moddable. And it in generally looks like it takes less effort to read. Stylistically? Yeah it's kind of balls. But from a readability standpoint I think it's better, especially for menus. Might also mean dynamically resizing text is also now a thing, which is useful for a whole lot of stuff.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 11, 2017, 06:35:17 pm
I'm tempted to put this as potentially being more Dom1->Dom2 than Dom3->Dom4. It's still iterative, but the iterations are affecting systems at a much lower level.
I'm starting to think that's the case as well. After further research I think that the changes are more fundamental than I originally thought.
QuoteWith all that said... As hyped as I am for the game, I get the feeling that it's going to be to Dom 4 as 4 was to 3. Not a massive improvement or change but enough of an iteration that most people will play it instead.
I mean, isn't that what we all want though? How much more different could it be without becoming contentious?
What I was trying to say is that Dom 4 feels a bit like an expansion pack to Dom 3 to me. The tweaks and new mechanics were interesting and meta-changing but the fundamental systems were generally intact. That's why I followed the comment up with 'I don't know if everyone will be as excited about it as I am'. I remember people who already had Dom 3 complaining about Dom 4 because they felt that they were buying a full price game for expansion level content/changes. But like Albright said, Dom 5 is such a bigger iteration on the formula that I've changed my opinion and doubt I'll hear anything like this.
So yeah. It is pretty much what we all want. I just can't English sometimes.
since a minor bless no longer requires at least 4 points in a path.
No, it does. You can spend less points than that at a time, but you still need four ranks in the path to get any points.
Oh. I didn't about know that and kinda assumed that's how blesses work now. I guess that Rainbows didn't receive the boost I thought they did.
QuoteBut since national generals and scouts cost half of a mage fort-turn wise, I'd imagine that they'd see more use than right now. Giving up recruiting a mage to get two generals or scouts/assassins is a more favourable than only getting one after all. Having only 8 commanders out of 10 being a mage is still an improvement after all.
You say that, but I still see no reason why I wouldn't rather go for more mages in most situations.
I said 8 out of 10 commanders, didn't I? Everyone is still going to be pumping out mages but you get punished less for taking a few national generals/scouts/assassins/whatever. So you should have twice as many situations were you'd take them (though twice of a small number is still not a lot).
QuoteHow is this going to impact, say, Mictlan and other nations that can only build palisades? Or are they going to be able to build fortresses as well now to keep pace with everyone?
Those limitations are still in place. Notably, Pangaea now has a national spell (for... 35N gems? I think, this is my memory now) that builds a palisade.
So I can look forward to Mictlan/Pangaea/whatever spamming palisades everywhere?
Post by: Cruxador on September 11, 2017, 06:46:15 pm
The blackletter font is the least terrible of the three. It's a really pedestrian choice for something that appears as though it's trying to stand out, but there's nothing worse to say about it than that. The sans-serif font (not arial) has big wide letterforms that look strange and overly airy; for the role it performs it should be heavier and more workman-like. The serif font used is very narrow and poorly kerned. I also find the letterforms themselves to be needlessly delicate; you're free to not like heavier fonts I suppose, but I don't want to have to lean into my compter to read things clearly. That's not to say that the old fonts were necessarily great, I think a lot of the people who like them do so on nostalgia, but I do hope that the fonts are moddable and if they are I'm replacing them straight away.I like the new fonts. But I'm a font nerd, and Dom has been using the same shit fonts for at least 2 games now.I'm a font nerd too and I see no grounds on which to like the new ones.
I missed this before.
I'm not saying I like all the new fonts. More I was talking about the Olde English font on the Pretender title bar.
The rest of what's on the game looks like....a mix of Arial and TNR? Kinda looks like they're testing out different fonts on different screens, because it's different between text descriptions, titles and the map text in some places.
What I didn't like about the old Dominions font is it was very thick. No real serifs and it made for thick blocks of uninteresting, workman-like text.
This actually looks like True Type Font. Which means it's possibly moddable. And it in generally looks like it takes less effort to read. Stylistically? Yeah it's kind of balls. But from a readability standpoint I think it's better, especially for menus. Might also mean dynamically resizing text is also now a thing, which is useful for a whole lot of stuff.
That said, while I don't think the old font is necessarily better, it definitely didn't have the stylistic contrast that the new ones do. Nothing else in Dominions has clean edges, so clean edges on the font doesn't look nice. This is potentially fixable with a font that has slightly noisy borders though.
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2017, 07:41:17 pm
I said 8 out of 10 commanders, didn't I? Everyone is still going to be pumping out mages but you get punished less for taking a few national generals/scouts/assassins/whatever. So you should have twice as many situations were you'd take them (though twice of a small number is still not a lot).
I'd take dismissals of recruiting more non-mages in D5 as "non-optimal play" with a grain of salt, particularly since they're based on current meta and mechanics (and I'm wondering if meta might not shift even further from mages >>>> troops with non-instant spells and RT combat). A betatester on D4Mods cited MA Marignon's example: 3 command points in the capital, assassins take 1 and T1/T2 mages take 2. Over two turns, two assassins and two witch hunters (or 4+1, or possibly even 6+0) can very easily make more sense than 3 witch hunters - not least if you're short on gold, which is what always seems to be brushed aside in describing How To Play. Will it make sense if you don't use assassins but do use mages? Ofc not. But that really says nothing at all. And if the reason you don't currently use assassins is because their cost of a "fort-turn" is too high, this changes the calculus significantly; saying it doesn't is like saying that StR had no impact on recruitment priorities D3->D4.
Post by: Cruxador on September 11, 2017, 09:04:47 pm
The StR change isn't really comparable, because on either side of the equation what you're getting there is mages. An assassin specifically might be worth something since they do something that can't be done otherwise but... An assassin that's not also a mage won't do it that well anyway, except as a vehicle for bottles of living water.I said 8 out of 10 commanders, didn't I? Everyone is still going to be pumping out mages but you get punished less for taking a few national generals/scouts/assassins/whatever. So you should have twice as many situations were you'd take them (though twice of a small number is still not a lot).
I'd take dismissals of recruiting more non-mages in D5 as "non-optimal play" with a grain of salt, particularly since they're based on current meta and mechanics (and I'm wondering if meta might not shift even further from mages >>>> troops with non-instant spells and RT combat). A betatester on D4Mods cited MA Marignon's example: 3 command points in the capital, assassins take 1 and T1/T2 mages take 2. Over two turns, two assassins and two witch hunters (or 4+1, or possibly even 6+0) can very easily make more sense than 3 witch hunters - not least if you're short on gold, which is what always seems to be brushed aside in describing How To Play. Will it make sense if you don't use assassins but do use mages? Ofc not. But that really says nothing at all. And if the reason you don't currently use assassins is because their cost of a "fort-turn" is too high, this changes the calculus significantly; saying it doesn't is like saying that StR had no impact on recruitment priorities D3->D4.
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2017, 10:24:16 pm
To say nothing of its assumption that the current meta and conventional wisdom will not noticeably change or become obsolete.
(Or we could go further and examine the claim that non-mage assassins are useless except with Bottles. What about with Handfuls of Acorns? What about with Amulets of the Dead? To say nothing of "what about when your piles of indy troop mules get targeted by the assassin instead of a mage"...)
Post by: Cruxador on September 11, 2017, 10:37:34 pm
That still takes for granted the baseline assumptions that 1) mages are superior to other recruitment options in all circumstances (regardless of paths or other considerations), and 2) quite specifically in this case (but related to a parallel underlying assumption in all similar cases) that you can afford to spend 150% as much gold every two turns. Both assumptions are based on untainted theorycrafting, and are just as sound as making calculations about marginal utility of gems based on the "fact" that path-1 items cost 3 to forge (or 1 if you're Ulm).Yeah but theory-crafting is all we can do at this point, and the previous game's assumptions will be held true for at least the first little while. Anyway, leaving aside that mages cost more, what can a non-mage offer that will make it worth delaying the mage? If you've not got enough gold you're not going to have full recruitment, but if that's the case it's probably still the expansion phase anyway. Or you're blood and your gold economy is irrelevant, in which case you would still rather wait for mages than spend on something else.
To say nothing of its assumption that the current meta and conventional wisdom will not noticeably change or become obsolete.
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2017, 10:54:18 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 11, 2017, 11:33:52 pm
The blackletter font is the least terrible of the three. It's a really pedestrian choice for something that appears as though it's trying to stand out, but there's nothing worse to say about it than that. The sans-serif font (not arial) has big wide letterforms that look strange and overly airy; for the role it performs it should be heavier and more workman-like. The serif font used is very narrow and poorly kerned. I also find the letterforms themselves to be needlessly delicate; you're free to not like heavier fonts I suppose, but I don't want to have to lean into my compter to read things clearly. That's not to say that the old fonts were necessarily great, I think a lot of the people who like them do so on nostalgia, but I do hope that the fonts are moddable and if they are I'm replacing them straight away.I like the new fonts. But I'm a font nerd, and Dom has been using the same shit fonts for at least 2 games now.I'm a font nerd too and I see no grounds on which to like the new ones.
I missed this before.
I'm not saying I like all the new fonts. More I was talking about the Olde English font on the Pretender title bar.
The rest of what's on the game looks like....a mix of Arial and TNR? Kinda looks like they're testing out different fonts on different screens, because it's different between text descriptions, titles and the map text in some places.
What I didn't like about the old Dominions font is it was very thick. No real serifs and it made for thick blocks of uninteresting, workman-like text.
This actually looks like True Type Font. Which means it's possibly moddable. And it in generally looks like it takes less effort to read. Stylistically? Yeah it's kind of balls. But from a readability standpoint I think it's better, especially for menus. Might also mean dynamically resizing text is also now a thing, which is useful for a whole lot of stuff.
That said, while I don't think the old font is necessarily better, it definitely didn't have the stylistic contrast that the new ones do. Nothing else in Dominions has clean edges, so clean edges on the font doesn't look nice. This is potentially fixable with a font that has slightly noisy borders though.
Black Letter is what you get when you go to dafont and look for medieval fonts. Which is why I think a lot of this is testing to see which ones they like.
I do like heavier fonts actually, there was just so little to like about the Dominions fonts. It did fit the aesthetic better, that I do agree, and this does less. But it seems like a lot of things in Dom are finally starting to look like it was made after 2000. Now if the world map could just oblige.
Post by: Cruxador on September 12, 2017, 12:03:44 am
Black Letter is what you get when you go to dafont and look for medieval fonts. Which is why I think a lot of this is testing to see which ones they like.Blackletter is a category. This particular blackletter font, and in fact all three of these fonts, were and are in CoE4 so I'm pretty sure this isn't just testing different ones.
I do like heavier fonts actually, there was just so little to like about the Dominions fonts. It did fit the aesthetic better, that I do agree, and this does less. But it seems like a lot of things in Dom are finally starting to look like it was made after 2000. Now if the world map could just oblige.
I don't think modernity for its own sake is worthwhile. That doesn't mean nothing can be updated - I think doubling allowable sprite resolutions would make things easier for modders who have a bit more skill in traditional art - but UI aesthetics aren't something that I see an inherent benefit to, it's more like following trends than necessarily an improvement in quality.
Post by: nenjin on September 12, 2017, 01:15:19 am
Post by: Trekkin on September 12, 2017, 02:35:33 am
I agree that they could be working toward a more flavorful UI, there'd be some real value in that. But I still think it's good they're updating the program to at least handle TT fonts. Then modders can mod in fonts they like more.
Honestly, I don't mind the UI aesthetically; it's always struck me as kind of pretty in a quietly informative sort of way. If they really wanted to improve it, though, more automation would be amazing. Even something like being able to script commander movement on the strategic map would go a long way toward improving blood slave tedium, and some ability to send commanders to distant provinces through a series of waypoints would make distributing cap-only troops/commanders less of a headache.
Or, more globally, human-readable .2h files would do wonders for a lot of these problems, although you'd probably want to keep being able to convert them to binary for emailing.
Post by: Kagus on September 12, 2017, 03:13:43 am
I'm charmed that we've got some movement back towards Dom1-style dynamic maps.
Woooooooo! Dom1 maps were awesome in their own weird, grainy, orange-y way. I'm a sucker for all things dynamic.
So, about real-time combat... What I'm primarily wondering about is how this will affect things like tramplers and horse archers. Tramplers will presumably now be getting attacked constantly as soon as they start trashing the enemy, but on the flip side this also means that they won't stop in the middle of a troop cluster when their turn ends in order to get pincushioned.
And as for horse archers (or the like), will they fire while actively moving, or will they stop, draw, fire and then continue on? It'll be interesting to see how a lot of different movement and attack types will get translated into the RT format.
Post by: Ametsala on September 12, 2017, 12:27:10 pm
I've actually got a couple dom4 related little questions.
First, I've got a province where I can't improve PD past 9. Is it a bug or is there some hidden site or is it a map feature? The map's Ragnaroc Comes.
Second, according to the manual undying grants the unit the ability to fight on while dead. Does the level of undying, e.g. undying +5, mean that the unit fights on until it takes another 5 points of damage? So it's kind of extra HP but the unit dies at the end of the battle? It's a bit difficult to check this in my current game as my blessed troops are bad at dying.
Post by: Jilladilla on September 12, 2017, 12:37:03 pm
This is probably a good time to remind everyone that this is the dom4 thread and dom5 has its own thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=167436.0) :)
I've actually got a couple dom4 related little questions.
First, I've got a province where I can't improve PD past 9. Is it a bug or is there some hidden site or is it a map feature? The map's Ragnaroc Comes.
Second, according to the manual undying grants the unit the ability to fight on while dead. Does the level of undying, e.g. undying +5, mean that the unit fights on until it takes another 5 points of damage? So it's kind of extra HP but the unit dies at the end of the battle? It's a bit difficult to check this in my current game as my blessed troops are bad at dying.
Yup, there is a Dom5 thread.
Either way, your questions: PD is linked to province population, particularly low pop provinces will restrict it heavily. I don't remember the exact ratio, however.
Undying lets a unit fight with negative HP, for instance Undying 10 granted by a D9 bless would let a unit continue fighting until they hit -10 hp. Do note that units in the negatives will die at the end of battle unless the source of their undying is permanent (Prophets, Shrouds of the Battle Saint), or they have regeneration (In which case they'll come back into the positives during the post battle rounds)
Post by: Kagus on September 12, 2017, 12:49:48 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 12, 2017, 12:54:27 pm
Post by: Jilladilla on September 12, 2017, 12:58:54 pm
Is that how it works? The ingame description says that lifeless beings with the blessing will be able to stick around after the battle with negative hitpoints, but other, non-lifeless (a great descriptor, to be sure) units will die if their end-of-battle total is negative.
To be fair, it does tend to be a fairly tight margin most of the time (negative hp, but not outright dead), and I tend to pair it with N9 when I do it. So I have no idea.
Post by: Kagus on September 12, 2017, 01:12:37 pm
Death weapons also pairs quite nicely, although it misses out on the reliability and +ATT of the fire bless. Still, even with MR Negates, flagellants put out a lot of attacks, and +2 AN damage can stack up in delightful ways against heavily armored foes.
Does it still have the hidden property of Death Weapon damage having a massively increased affliction chance? I know that death bless used to be +affliction rate, but after the switch to undying I'm fairly certain they kept the really high affliction rates and just hid it inside of the major bless.
Post by: Ametsala on September 12, 2017, 01:29:56 pm
The province in question has only 90 population so that explains the low max PD then.
The manual also gives the impression that undeads in negative HP will not die at the end of battle.
Does it still have the hidden property of Death Weapon damage having a massively increased affliction chance? I know that death bless used to be +affliction rate, but after the switch to undying I'm fairly certain they kept the really high affliction rates and just hid it inside of the major bless.
At least according to dom4's wikia article on blesses (http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Bless#Death), death weapons have a chance of causing disease. Haven't played with death blesses yet myself so can't confirm.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 12, 2017, 01:50:19 pm
Sidenote: Negative PD would be intresting, like the population hates you so much whatever attacks you gets some villagers and dogs to help them.
Post by: Trekkin on September 12, 2017, 02:06:13 pm
Take my money, as usual. Dominions beats out even Arma in hours played / € invested.
Sidenote: Negative PD would be intresting, like the population hates you so much whatever attacks you gets some villagers and dogs to help them.
It would be a good replacement/adjuvant for the random event where a province revolts, certainly. I've been trying out different approaches to a blood economy, and the patrol-free versions regularly hit 100+ unrest. Having effective PD = PD*(100-unrest) would be a cool way to represent the populace being so tired of you your own guards are willing to fight you and make chronic unrest in non-fort provinces more than an economic concern.
On that note, do we have any information on how patrolling actually reduces unrest (in Dom4) ? I see in the turn tips that high precision and movement make them more effective, but then I see that certain units have a patrol bonus; do we know how they interact?
Post by: E. Albright on September 12, 2017, 02:14:36 pm
Patrol strength (fliers) = (precision + MAX[ap, 30])/20 + patrol bonus
That's for the strength. I can't remember if the manual explains the mechanics of unrest reduction; it might.
Post by: Trekkin on September 12, 2017, 02:22:26 pm
Patrol strength (walkers) = (precision + ap)/20 + patrol bonus
Patrol strength (fliers) = (precision + MAX[ap, 30])/20 + patrol bonus
That's for the strength. I can't remember if the manual explains the mechanics of unrest reduction; it might.
If it does, it does not use the words "unrest" or "patrolling" to do so, but the patrol strength is a great help. Thanks!
Post by: Cruxador on September 12, 2017, 03:35:45 pm
Take my money, as usual. Dominions beats out even Arma in hours played / € invested.So Moctezuma lost because he had -100 PD?
Sidenote: Negative PD would be intresting, like the population hates you so much whatever attacks you gets some villagers and dogs to help them.
Post by: Kagus on September 12, 2017, 04:43:22 pm
Post by: Ametsala on September 12, 2017, 05:06:11 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 12, 2017, 06:36:19 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 12, 2017, 06:47:03 pm
I agree that they could be working toward a more flavorful UI, there'd be some real value in that. But I still think it's good they're updating the program to at least handle TT fonts. Then modders can mod in fonts they like more.
Honestly, I don't mind the UI aesthetically; it's always struck me as kind of pretty in a quietly informative sort of way. If they really wanted to improve it, though, more automation would be amazing. Even something like being able to script commander movement on the strategic map would go a long way toward improving blood slave tedium, and some ability to send commanders to distant provinces through a series of waypoints would make distributing cap-only troops/commanders less of a headache.
Or, more globally, human-readable .2h files would do wonders for a lot of these problems, although you'd probably want to keep being able to convert them to binary for emailing.
I think back even when I started playing Dom 3, I'd already gotten used to games with really flexible UIs. And Dom has always been very retro in this regard. There's a lot of screen swapping going on, for everything. Tooltips are there but they're pretty limited. There's always been more information you wanted cross-referenced than they offer. Like, how much nicer would it be for a mouse interface to right click and have a drop down for actions, instead of the couple options we have now. Dominions' UI has always been functional it's just very......stolid? Utilitarian? Uncomplicated but also unevolved since what feels like the early 90s. I think that's what I've been badly getting at above, is I'm just happy to see some change and some movement forward in the tech. I can only pay $30 to $40 dollars for essentially the same game so many times in a row before I start feeling like I'm being taken advantage of. At least for me this will be the most significant change I've seen out of a new Dominions game. I'd probably pay just for the new battle map.
On that note, any rumors or word on pricing? Dom4 owners getting a discount maybe? I know it came out on Steam 3 years ago and was out on Desura for like 5 months before that. But I feel like I just bought it yesterday.
I was also going to say I'm glad we're getting Dom5 instead of CoE4....but now I see they put up CoE4 about a year ago. So they are still holding to their traditional pattern. :P
Post by: Cruxador on September 12, 2017, 09:48:29 pm
I think back even when I started playing Dom 3, I'd already gotten used to games with really flexible UIs. And Dom has always been very retro in this regard. There's a lot of screen swapping going on, for everything. Tooltips are there but they're pretty limited. There's always been more information you wanted cross-referenced than they offer. Like, how much nicer would it be for a mouse interface to right click and have a drop down for actions, instead of the couple options we have now. Dominions' UI has always been functional it's just very......stolid? Utilitarian? Uncomplicated but also unevolved since what feels like the early 90s.Eh, I prefer it over a lot of more "evolved" UIs. It's functional and things make sense and there's plenty of hotkeys.
Quote
I think that's what I've been badly getting at above, is I'm just happy to see some change and some movement forward in the tech. I can only pay $30 to $40 dollars for essentially the same game so many times in a row before I start feeling like I'm being taken advantage of. At least for me this will be the most significant change I've seen out of a new Dominions game. I'd probably pay just for the new battle map.I mean, considering how long it's been out, I don't think forty bucks for continued development is a terrible deal, and there are pretty sizable changes each time. You're also short a year there, incidentally, we're well into 2017 now.
On that note, any rumors or word on pricing? Dom4 owners getting a discount maybe? I know it came out on Steam 3 years ago and was out on Desura for like 5 months before that. But I feel like I just bought it yesterday.
Post by: nenjin on September 13, 2017, 12:57:56 am
I don't think I've given Illwinter a hard time about it because of the overall awesomeness of the game. But I think it's based on an older philosophy of development when developers selling directly to their customers was more of a thing. And I'm thinking of like Binding of Isaac: Rebirth. If that had been made by Illwinter they wouldn't have cut anyone a discount. And I think it took them a long time to start offering sales on their own website for Dominions. My jimmies aren't super rustled about it, but it'll always set them apart for me from other developers who largely don't get away with shipping literally 95% of the same game every couple of years. Dom 5 at least fits my expectations better because it's getting some much needed visual overhauls.
It reminds me of the adage about physical hobby games like WH40k; they tend to have captive audiences because there's no where else you can get actual Space Marines. Similarly, there's just nothing out there that is a real replacement for Dominions and they know that. So they don't really have an incentive to be generous, they've prospered this long just on the fanbase they have.
Post by: Cruxador on September 13, 2017, 01:19:30 am
I don't think I've given Illwinter a hard time about it because of the overall awesomeness of the game. But I think it's based on an older philosophy of development when developers selling directly to their customers was more of a thing. And I'm thinking of like Binding of Isaac: Rebirth. If that had been made by Illwinter they wouldn't have cut anyone a discount. And I think it took them a long time to start offering sales on their own website for Dominions. My jimmies aren't super rustled about it, but it'll always set them apart for me from other developers who largely don't get away with shipping literally 95% of the same game ever couple of years. Dom 5 at least fits my expectations better because it's getting some much needed visual overhauls.
Actually, part of it is because the devs being the ones to sell the game is new to them. When they had a publisher, that was when there were no sales and the price couldn't be lowered. Now, they go along with what the folks at Steam say is a good idea when it comes to sales. Which is good, because the folks at Steam know their business. The old publisher is also why they used to have DRM that regularly impacted paying customers by accident, incidentally.
Starting with Dominions 2, there have been four iterations from 2002 until the end of 2017. That's an average of five years between iterations, which is not really that frequent; compare it to the AAA shit that comes out with no real changes. Meanwhile, 3 added ages, 4 added thrones and throne victory, 5 adds real-time battles and overhauled blesses, and all three added tons of new nations and content with continued updates along the way far in excess of the norm. This is not a case of a single good game with an exhorbitant price for the full support, like you'd get from Paradox. These iterations are functionally distinct, though remaining within the same franchise, and the fact that Dom 5 is the first one to include engine overhauls in a while doesn't mean that the gameplay and content additions of the past are comparatively devalued. Nor does the fact that sprites (mostly) remain constant over time. The fact that there's loads of updates along the way shouldn't either; getting Xibalba and Therodos and Nazca and Ys and Ragha for free, along with the underground update and underwater update and Zoroastrian update and scripting/event update and AI updates and all the countless bugfix and balance and usability updates, all for free, shouldn't actually devalue the new edition compared to if they had saved all of those up and released them at once in Dom 5. Instead, they should tell you that Dom 5, in addition to the hugely reworked base mechanics, will have this level of support; that the three new nations at launch don't represent only three new nations, but three plus whatever else comes after, and the same principle applies to all the other additions and improvements.
And the really ridiculous part is that compared to all that, what you're focusing on is the visual bits? Really? This isn't just making molehills out of mountains, it's looking at the molehill and going "I may only have been getting mountains in the past, but at least there's this now".
Post by: nenjin on September 13, 2017, 01:32:51 am
I appreciate iteration but I think you're more impressed with it than I am and more ready to pay for it. An engine rework feels like pretty tangible work to me, something that should have been done a long time ago. Reworking fort systems (again) or movement, while appreciated, doesn't blow me away. Thrones are cool but seriously, does an extra feature and some tweaks a full game make?
And more to the point I feel like I've got dead games by Illwinter in my library due to the way they handle releases and what goes in those releases. I'm never going to go back and play Dom 3 and won't play Dom 4 after 5 releases unless there is something seriously and lastingly wrong with it, which there won't be.
Everything carries forward so why not....make a base game, do your content updates and bug fixes (which are standard part of the package deal for any reputable developer, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to applaud that) and actually sell content packs every year or two for $5, $10, $15, whatever seems reasonable. Because from when I started it doesn't actually feel like Dom 3, 4, 5. It feels like Dom 3.3. 3.4. 3.5. It's a very efficient way to sell your game.
Like I said, I'm not actually upset about it. It just gets me every time a release comes around. Illwinter is the only developer in my library aside from Ed McMillen and Cyanide where I feel like I've paid retail price for the essentially the same game multiple times. (Cyanide in particular has caught a ton of shit from people for this.) I didn't give them a pass and didn't buy BB whatever Edition because I didn't feel like ultimately it was worth my time. I'm still buying Dom games. Doesn't mean I give them my wholehearted endorsement for how they do it though.
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2017, 01:41:09 am
Nor does the fact that sprites (mostly) remain constant over time.
A quibble as someone who spends far too much time looking at Dominions sprites: they haven't. There have been progressive overhauls, reworks, replacements, and additions from the start. Dom4 in particular replaced and/or revamped A TON of the graphics, as well as increasing sprite resolution. Dom3 hurts to look at these days. I would not be surprised if some of the outstanding Dom2/Dom3 graphics disappear with Dom5 as well. I'm not going to hold my breath on all of them going away, but I expect it'll be a lot harder to find old graphics come Dom5. Well, except maybe in Jotunheim. Those haven't changed in forever and show no sign of doing so, though in fairness they probably aged better than most or all of the rest.
Post by: etgfrog on September 13, 2017, 11:08:02 am
Post by: Cruxador on September 13, 2017, 01:31:35 pm
I appreciate iteration but I think you're more impressed with it than I am and more ready to pay for it. An engine rework feels like pretty tangible work to me, something that should have been done a long time ago. Reworking fort systems (again) or movement, while appreciated, doesn't blow me away. Thrones are cool but seriously, does an extra feature and some tweaks a full game make?I mean, "some tweaks" goes from a game where you manage a gem economy into the late game, where all nations end up playing very similarly, and where you must tediously take all provinces into one where nations remain different and where you can rush key locations to end the game prematurely even if you're not the strongest player (see my Marverni AAR, where I was the strongest player but made critical strategic errors regarding force deployment) which simply couldn't happen before. It's true that if we simplify to only the biggest features, it looks like something that could be an expansion pack, but the little changes do add up. Given the time span and the degree of changes, the idea that you're paying more for less with Dominions doesn't really line up with what's going on in the rest of the video game market.
Everything carries forward so why not....make a base game, do your content updates and bug fixes (which are standard part of the package deal for any reputable developer, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to applaud that) and actually sell content packs every year or two for $5, $10, $15, whatever seems reasonable. Because from when I started it doesn't actually feel like Dom 3, 4, 5. It feels like Dom 3.3. 3.4. 3.5. It's a very efficient way to sell your game.Paying ten five bucks twice a year might appeal to you more than paying forty bucks after four years, but for an incoming (new) player it's the difference between paying $40 for a new game or paying $40+($5t) for the new game, where t is number of expansions released. I mentioned Paradox for a reason; they do it this way. Crusader Kings 2 costs ~$400 for all the content. Dominions 5 costs the price of one game.
Like I said, I'm not actually upset about it. It just gets me every time a release comes around. Illwinter is the only developer in my library aside from Ed McMillen and Cyanide where I feel like I've paid retail price for the essentially the same game multiple times. (Cyanide in particular has caught a ton of shit from people for this.) I didn't give them a pass and didn't buy BB whatever Edition because I didn't feel like ultimately it was worth my time. I'm still buying Dom games. Doesn't mean I give them my wholehearted endorsement for how they do it though.Man, you think that's something, look at what Spiderweb's been up to with Avernum. On the second remake of the third iteration of a pair of trilogies now. But for something like Dominions, or something like Blood Bowl, where the bulk of the game is in the multiplayer community, it makes a lot of practical sense to release the game as a full release when you update it. Could there be discounts for owners of the previous game? Sure, Steam supports that. Now that owners of the previous game actually are, for the most part, on Steam, Illwinter may decide to do that if their liaison at Valve suggests it. Even if they don't, though, the kind of prices they charge are pretty worthwhile for four years of support. Even if they don't, I don't think it's an unreasonable price for support over the years. Of course, you can definitely quibble with that if you consider that a lot of the support is done by the community (and llamaserver in particular is a volunteer job) but I still find the price to be reasonable considering the size and the niche nature of this operation.
And to further clarify, I'm not saying that I think Illwinter's efforts are flawless or, in every regard, even adequate. Over on the Qt3 forum, Turin posted a list of changes that ought to be made to make the game more accessible, and I categorically agree with that. But insinuating that the game's price and value don't line up is just not consistent with the facts.
Well, that's sort of true, but they upgrade is so piecemeal that the changes aren't big and flashy. If resolution was doubled again (not like current computers can't handle it, and it would save work compared against a hypothetical eventual future doubling once all the sprites are updated) and the old ones were updated to that, then that would be a pretty drastic change. As it is, a few updated at a time changes relatively little.Nor does the fact that sprites (mostly) remain constant over time.
A quibble as someone who spends far too much time looking at Dominions sprites: they haven't. There have been progressive overhauls, reworks, replacements, and additions from the start. Dom4 in particular replaced and/or revamped A TON of the graphics, as well as increasing sprite resolution. Dom3 hurts to look at these days. I would not be surprised if some of the outstanding Dom2/Dom3 graphics disappear with Dom5 as well. I'm not going to hold my breath on all of them going away, but I expect it'll be a lot harder to find old graphics come Dom5. Well, except maybe in Jotunheim. Those haven't changed in forever and show no sign of doing so, though in fairness they probably aged better than most or all of the rest.
Post by: nenjin on September 13, 2017, 02:31:43 pm
Quote
Paying ten five bucks twice a year might appeal to you more than paying forty bucks after four years, but for an incoming (new) player it's the difference between paying $40 for a new game or paying $40+($5t) for the new game, where t is number of expansions released.
My approach to this as a player is to avoid most DLC on a new, untested (by me) game until I know I actually like it. If I do like it makes paying for the DLC much easier to justify.
Surprised you didn't mention splitting the playerbase as a consequence of DLC driven development. Because for a game like Dom it would be a big one.
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Crusader Kings 2 costs ~$400 for all the content.
Yeah as I was typing that I was thinking of CK2. There's definitely a dark side to constantly expanding the same game but I think there's a balance to be had.
Quote
Even if they don't, I don't think it's an unreasonable price for support over the years. Of course, you can definitely quibble with that if you consider that a lot of the support is done by the community (and llamaserver in particular is a volunteer job) but I still find the price to be reasonable considering the size and the niche nature of this operation.
Bottomline for me, if Dominions wasn't as strong a game as it is, I'd have a much bigger problem with it. Also if it was a $59.99 game, which it's not.
Quote
And to further clarify, I'm not saying that I think Illwinter's efforts are flawless or, in every regard, even adequate.
No, I get it. For how you play and appreciate Dom my post got you defensive on their behalf, and that's ok. I'm sure you've got problems with Dom I'm wholly unaware of that are more important to you than their release schema.
Quote
Avernum
Oh yeah I guess I do own one of those games too. So I guess add that one to the list.
Post by: Cruxador on September 13, 2017, 08:18:25 pm
Surprised you didn't mention splitting the playerbase as a consequence of DLC driven development. Because for a game like Dom it would be a big one.Eh, mods do that anyway. People that are relatively deep in the meta see a lot of balance problems that don't exist for people who know less about the game, so overhauls are a lot more necessary for some than on others. On top of it, CBM had a lot of "added" stuff that made people wary of it, and a lot of that carried over into the far more conservative balance mods of Dom 4. And then there's all the little mods. But seeing as you can easily swap them in and out to play the right game, it works out. It's not like many folks wouldn't buy the stuff anyway, assuming it didn't get to the same ridiculous level of some certain other companies.
Yeah as I was typing that I was thinking of CK2. There's definitely a dark side to constantly expanding the same game but I think there's a balance to be had.I mean, if you call the devs getting paid a dark side. It's not even barely applicable to this game since the devs are well employed, and Swedish (thus, strong social safety net) besides.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 14, 2017, 03:29:17 am
The only mod I'm using is Worthy Heroes.
Was it always there? Mod Inspector doesn't list it. What's going on?
Post by: Kagus on September 14, 2017, 03:33:24 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 14, 2017, 04:05:28 am
Post by: nenjin on September 14, 2017, 11:09:49 am
Quote
I mean, if you call the devs getting paid a dark side.
$400 for a complete game is insane though.
Post by: Trekkin on September 14, 2017, 11:49:01 am
QuoteI mean, if you call the devs getting paid a dark side.
$400 for a complete game is insane though.
It's not $400 for a complete game, though; the $40 base game is perfectly fun by itself, and none of the expansions need other expansions to work. How does the existence of additional content devalue that?
Incidentally, a lot of that $400 is portrait packs and unit packs and other purely cosmetic things. Again, it exists if someone really thinks every unit on the map needs a unique portrait, but I don't see how the fact that it exists makes the base game less sensibly priced. (That's not to say it is sensibly priced, but still.)
Post by: nenjin on September 14, 2017, 01:08:22 pm
I'm thinking Star Citizen with everything they sell for cash on top of the game would be the only thing that comes close to that.
Remember when $50/month sub fees for MMOs were a thing though? $400 would have gotten you 8 months of a subscription on top of your $50 game purchase. Times have changed though, and what think is worth what has also changed.
Post by: Trekkin on September 14, 2017, 01:38:20 pm
"Complete game" as in "all the game's content." Obviously CK2 is playable with none of the DLC.
But no one is making you buy all the game's content; there's just a lot of it available.
It just seems silly to call a pricing model ridiculous based on a figure that no one is paying for an amount of content that very few people want all of. That seems to me to be equivalent to calling Steam overpriced because it would cost thousands upon thousands of dollars to buy all the games on Steam -- except that all of the expansions to CK2 work together.
Post by: nenjin on September 14, 2017, 01:40:20 pm
"Complete game" as in "all the game's content." Obviously CK2 is playable with none of the DLC.
But no one is making you buy all the game's content; there's just a lot of it available.
It just seems silly to call a pricing model ridiculous based on a figure that no one is paying for an amount of content that very few people want all of. That seems to me to be equivalent to calling Steam overpriced because it would cost thousands upon thousands of dollars to buy all the games on Steam -- except that all of the expansions to CK2 work together.
Are we trying to have a discussion about DLC? Because that wasn't my point. My point is, $400 is a lot of money for the complete experience a game offers. It's unusual even today.
Post by: Trekkin on September 14, 2017, 01:58:25 pm
"Complete game" as in "all the game's content." Obviously CK2 is playable with none of the DLC.
But no one is making you buy all the game's content; there's just a lot of it available.
It just seems silly to call a pricing model ridiculous based on a figure that no one is paying for an amount of content that very few people want all of. That seems to me to be equivalent to calling Steam overpriced because it would cost thousands upon thousands of dollars to buy all the games on Steam -- except that all of the expansions to CK2 work together.
Are we trying to have a discussion about DLC? Because that wasn't my point. My point is, $400 is a lot of money for the complete experience a game offers. It's unusual even today.
Which I would agree with. My point is this: if we accept games are worth money, then it follows that there is some quantity of game worth any given quantity of money. It's arguable whether the amount of game your $400 buys you is worth the money in CK2's case, but the bare fact that you can spend $400 on CK2-related content does not itself mean it's overpriced. That logic matters when comparing how to sell something like Crusader Kings or Dominions 4, where the learning curve is really steep; I'm simply saying that, if we're to compare the sequential releases and one-game-with-lots-of-DLC approaches, we need to look at the prices incrementally rather than looking at how much one person could possibly spend on any given title of either.
Post by: nenjin on September 14, 2017, 02:45:54 pm
Post by: Micro102 on September 19, 2017, 07:39:37 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 19, 2017, 07:56:52 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 20, 2017, 09:27:08 am
Post by: neotemplar on September 20, 2017, 12:04:57 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 20, 2017, 01:53:25 pm
or
world domination and becoming retarded pantocrator, so the one, who dared to feeblemind you would regret doing so.
Post by: neotemplar on September 20, 2017, 02:28:49 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 21, 2017, 03:30:37 am
So if you've basically already won and feel like ending the game on an uplifting note, that can do it for ya. Heh.
Post by: neotemplar on September 21, 2017, 06:38:20 am
Also just thought of it but i can reuse the healer with mass death gems to get tarts.
Post by: Micro102 on September 21, 2017, 04:13:16 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 21, 2017, 04:19:56 pm
https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/
Post by: Micro102 on September 21, 2017, 10:18:39 pm
Post by: etgfrog on September 21, 2017, 10:48:59 pm
Yeah, I was sort of trying to avoid spending an hour looking through spells.Generic:
Code: [Select]
Hurricane
Volcanic Eruption
Tidal Wave
Breath of the Desert
Wolven Winter
Blight
Baleful Star
Locust Swarm
Raging Hearts
Black Death
Rain of Toads
Wrath of Pazuzu
Send Dream Horror
National:Code: [Select]
Monster Boar
Call of the DrugvantChange it to ritual only then look through the list for Affect Province with Anonymous Event
Post by: Kagus on September 22, 2017, 09:13:07 am
Post by: etgfrog on September 23, 2017, 03:24:21 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 23, 2017, 07:36:45 am
I wish those spells would scale with your magic scales, like if the god of "I have 9 water + ring of water + the booster cape" hits you with a lvl 11 water magic tidal wave, it should hurt more...
Post by: Kagus on September 23, 2017, 08:28:39 am
Post by: MCreeper on September 23, 2017, 08:56:36 am
Also, is banner of northern star is powerful self-trolling item? It gives your mages + to astral magic during battle, but since you can't say them to use yet unusable spells before... ::) they will just buff themselves as usual?
Post by: Trekkin on September 23, 2017, 09:46:12 am
What version i should have to have Xibalba? I have 4.10 and can't find it anywhere.
Also, is banner of northern star is powerful self-trolling item? It gives your mages + to astral magic during battle, but since you can't say them to use yet unusable spells before... ::) they will just buff themselves as usual?
Well, it will help anything with an effect that scales with level, so it's not entirely useless.
Post by: Kagus on September 23, 2017, 10:10:12 am
And you can tell them to queue up a known spell that they would need a boost in order to cast. If that option's not showing up for you, then it may also have been added in one of the versions between 4.10 and current.
Post by: Cruxador on September 23, 2017, 10:18:51 am
That's a dangerous train of thought to follow... Next thing you know, someone's casting of Rain of Toads becomes infinitely more lethal on account of dropping the size 5 monster toads instead of the much smaller normal variants. Everyone gets mushed by the falling torrent of frogbombs.I see no problem with this.
Post by: MCreeper on September 23, 2017, 10:23:30 am
About banner - just didn't know how it works.
Post by: Kagus on September 23, 2017, 10:29:58 am
Y'know, just in case you feel like making more of everything than has ever been made before.
Post by: Frumple on September 23, 2017, 02:25:53 pm
People can usually guess who did it however...Pretty sure some of them do? Have to double check to be sure about anonymous ones (which in complete honesty, I'm not going to do because I don't care nearly enough about the question right now), but there's certainly remote attack spells that scale to some degree with caster power. Usually not much, from what I recall, but some.
I wish those spells would scale with your magic scales, like if the god of "I have 9 water + ring of water + the booster cape" hits you with a lvl 11 water magic tidal wave, it should hurt more...
Post by: Kagus on September 23, 2017, 07:27:03 pm
Post by: Micro102 on September 24, 2017, 05:12:10 pm
Post by: sum1won on September 25, 2017, 10:31:26 am
When looking at blood research in my recent games I've noticed a lvl 8 B3 spell called 'end' (lower case). It's a single-target, 40+ damage AN unresistable combat spell with no description.This is an ingame bug that causes L4L to be renamed "end" in most modded games. Some mods have workarounds renaming it Life for Life because of this issue.
The only mod I'm using is Worthy Heroes.
Was it always there? Mod Inspector doesn't list it. What's going on?
So, here's a thought... If you give a copper arm to something like a master smith or a forge lord or something, that means they'd have 3 hands, yeah? So wouldn't you then be able to wield both a dwarven hammer and the hammer of the forgelord for a total fixed cost reduction of -7 or -8 gems?Yep. And they even play nicely with things like steel forges. Source: Once got steel forges in a game as Ulm, and had a dedicated smith with Forge lord and Dwarven Hammer using a copper arm pounding out (items) for virtually nothing.
Y'know, just in case you feel like making more of everything than has ever been made before.
What version i should have to have Xibalba? I have 4.10 and can't find it anywhere.Yes, you can. You just script them, and they will cast during battle if they are now able to. That said, I'm pretty sure that some of the pirated versions of Illwinter's games were leaked by illwinter with deliberately busted mechanics. So that might be causing problems for you.
Also, is banner of northern star is powerful self-trolling item? It gives your mages + to astral magic during battle, but since you can't say them to use yet unusable spells before... ::) they will just buff themselves as usual?
Post by: MCreeper on September 25, 2017, 11:46:17 am
1. I already get answer.
2. Don't damn say anything about "butchered pirated versions". It doesn't work like that, not in Internet. Last damn pirated game i can remember that they was butchered by pirates and was Fellowship of the Ring and Harry Potter and order of phoenix, both, like, 6 years ago and both on disks. Other ones was first butchered by developers, THEN pirates.
3. My dominions 4 works just damn perfectly, i just forgot how things worked after not playing for a while and asked question. It works PERFECTLY!
Post by: AlStar on September 25, 2017, 02:25:58 pm
That said, if you just buy it on Steam (it gets pretty good sales, and x-mas isn't too far away...), you'll never have to worry about it being out of date - and you'll show the developer some support.
Post by: E. Albright on September 25, 2017, 03:58:23 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on September 25, 2017, 04:14:03 pm
Just when I thought the AI couldn't show me it was more retarded, an astral mage just blinked itself into a retreating army of those heretic independents to die.
Considering, that astral mages have to study area of magic containing unspeakable truths about interdemnsional godeating horrors lurking near.
And that their everyday at job is very likely to end with becoming eternally laughing feeble minded fool constantly leaking saliva out of his mouth while mumbling gibberish about stars being right.
It might be quite reasonable for them to do things like that.
Post by: Frumple on September 25, 2017, 05:16:15 pm
Also, Illwinter definitely has engaged in complex DRM sabotage shenanigans in the past. Their traditional MO was making parts of the UI eventually stop working for pirated keys. There were workarounds that still let pirates play Dominions as something other than a glorified demo, but they definitely impacted QOL in oblique yet noticeable ways, so it's hardly incredible to suspect such things.Nagot gick fel!
... but yeah, that. No clue about D4 since I bought it early enough I didn't even get idly curious about the metaphorical state of things, but folks had something of a nightmare time getting a properly working D3 floating around. Half makes me wonder what's going on now that the bad old days of sales effectively being a cryptid are behind us, heh.
Post by: Trekkin on September 25, 2017, 07:23:16 pm
Also, Illwinter definitely has engaged in complex DRM sabotage shenanigans in the past. Their traditional MO was making parts of the UI eventually stop working for pirated keys. There were workarounds that still let pirates play Dominions as something other than a glorified demo, but they definitely impacted QOL in oblique yet noticeable ways, so it's hardly incredible to suspect such things.
I kind of wish they had made that an option when playing Dreamlands.
Post by: Frumple on September 25, 2017, 10:21:41 pm
If you want real fun, it could cause numbers to misread or input incorrectly, too. Try giving a gem to a caster and they get three, but shows two or four, your research output is off by a few %, stuff like that.
Extra fun fun, you could start infecting weaker (lower domspread/strength) pretenders occasionally. "The dreams of the deep cloud your divine vision! Your formations are randomized this turn, and will be something other than what you choose should you try to change them." Or stronger ones if they (or their prophet) are actually inside a mad god's domain.
... just. Don't get it wrong. That is grotesquely horrible game design, and while as a challenge mode or something it might be interesting for the masochistic out there, anyone who actually tried to make that sort of mechanic part of a base game probably needs to be drug into an alleyway and beaten until either the stupid or their brain falls out. It's a heck of a thought, though.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 26, 2017, 02:45:17 am
While we are brainstorming, man would it be nice to have more "unleashable monsters" - like the guy that eats dead people and then goes berserk.
In Fall from Heaven (A civ mod) - you could research, well, a portal to hell and summon them into the world, losing your main nation and playing as them (if you so desire) - I can imagine opening the first gate, breaking thrones to release some sort of indi-force, deamon troops that will only fight for one round, mercs that go rogue, a spell that affects enemy commanders and makes them go indi-if in a province with pd < troops & alone...
__________
Commander-Equipment (limited to 1 / leader) like:
"Weapons of Paris" [The guy that killed archiles] - Weapons of the troops ignore any magical armor
"Winter Clothing" - Winter Movement & 2 Forst resistance
"War Dogs" - Get one free War dog per 25 Size of troops and 1 for the commander
Post by: sum1won on September 26, 2017, 08:55:14 am
After turn 10, all your areas are getting raided by pirates.I played a little with the unleashed mechanic but decided not to incorporate it into my main mod. I think Red_Rob did some stuff with it, though.
While we are brainstorming, man would it be nice to have more "unleashable monsters" - like the guy that eats dead people and then goes berserk.
In Fall from Heaven (A civ mod) - you could research, well, a portal to hell and summon them into the world, losing your main nation and playing as them (if you so desire) - I can imagine opening the first gate, breaking thrones to release some sort of indi-force, deamon troops that will only fight for one round, mercs that go rogue, a spell that affects enemy commanders and makes them go indi-if in a province with pd < troops & alone...
__________
Commander-Equipment (limited to 1 / leader) like:
"Weapons of Paris" [The guy that killed archiles] - Weapons of the troops ignore any magical armor
"Winter Clothing" - Winter Movement & 2 Forst resistance
"War Dogs" - Get one free War dog per 25 Size of troops and 1 for the commander
I do have some roughly scripted mods along those lines on my computer. The most complex of which is a pseudo-Zerg-mod. A random event created a unit which would act like the eater of the dead (ie, be independent), except that it would spawn other units, some of which would attack neighboring provinces, and, if successful, start new colonies where they would spawn more units.
There was also a separate mod creating a rare event which could result in bloodhunters being attacked by nsfw units (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=1072). Which could also create more of themselves.
Some of the commander-things you mention are kind of possible, but not exactly the way you suggest. For example, "magic weapons" is a possible buff in dom5, so you can code an item that automatically casts magic weapons on nearby troops at the start of battle, the same way that the iron face casts ironskin. Limiting them one-leader would have to be done by putting them in a limited slot.
Post by: Kagus on September 26, 2017, 09:53:39 am
Also, sum1won, I'm not getting whatever gif/image there to show up. Just says "user posted image". Judging from the comments, it has something to do with penis, which I can only imagine is heartily endorsed by the Illwinter games team, considering how many penises they include in the vanilla versions of their games.
Post by: Cruxador on September 26, 2017, 10:54:27 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 26, 2017, 12:27:40 pm
Also, sum1won, I'm not getting whatever gif/image there to show up. Just says "user posted image". Judging from the comments, it has something to do with penis, which I can only imagine is heartily endorsed by the Illwinter games team, considering how many penises they include in the vanilla versions of their games.
...just be glad that unarmed satyrs in Dominions aren't as excited as unarmed satyrs in CoE4...
He's just linked to a mod that uses the mechanic y'all were talking about. Download it and try it out to see more.
Elmokki appears to have suffered a fit of better taste at some point and removed it.
Post by: Kagus on September 26, 2017, 03:15:29 pm
...just be glad that unarmed satyrs in Dominions aren't as excited as unarmed satyrs in CoE4...
Actually, they are. The "Satyr" commander summoned by LA Pythium's Orgy spell is extremely excited about serving the greater interests of the one-eyed snake lord. And it drives the ladies crazy!
...literally. He can summon maenads for free.
The Lord of the Wild pretender is also packin' something under all that fur, and the greater nephilim have more than just the golden horns atop their heads to waggle menacingly. Also, anyone remember that fig-leafed pretender chassis from earlier games? Yeah, well, he has a brother... One who isn't quite as modest, and who at least used to show up as an ultra-rare province population.
Post by: a1s on September 26, 2017, 03:18:59 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 26, 2017, 05:37:29 pm
I've been playing (and losing to) super hard AI and the amount of blesses they have is gross as all hell...
Post by: Cruxador on September 26, 2017, 11:06:06 pm
Elmokki appears to have suffered a fit of better taste at some point and removed it.Nah, his hosting probably just dropped it due to time elapsed.
Post by: E. Albright on September 27, 2017, 11:01:56 am
Post by: etgfrog on September 27, 2017, 02:36:19 pm
Since round 27 ended not to long ago, there is the possiblity of starting round29, next to 28, but I doubt we'll have 6-8 players willing for it right now...I had an interesting thought for a game, nationgen pool. Each player give the number to generate a nation then once all the players have sent one then the host would make the mod, distribute it then randomly assign each player a nation. It would discourage finding the most overpowered nation since it could end up being used against you. Easiest way I found of searching for an interesting nation is under nation restriction then nation or race theme. As an example, seed 1573659351 is hoburgs that have a recruit at any fort sacreds that are power frames, but they consume a lot of supplies.
I've been playing (and losing to) super hard AI and the amount of blesses they have is gross as all hell...
Post by: Kagus on September 27, 2017, 04:03:46 pm
Big beefy ol' Panicratos the Apostatic Warrior was going around clearing out throne commanders for me, when he was eventually matched in combat and struck down... by blood slaves.
Yep. Fought a conjurer, conjurer had a whole goddamn harem of slaves on him. Panicratos went in for the kill, got blinded by a lucky skeleton, and then proceeded to get beaten to death by drunk virgins.
The rest of that game went about as poorly as one would expect, given such an omen.
Post by: E. Albright on September 27, 2017, 04:11:02 pm
I had an interesting thought for a game, nationgen pool.
If you get noticeable interest in doing this, I can try to get off my derriere and push out an NG update. I haven't been terribly motivated recently, but I'm "almost done" with yakshas, elephant men, occidental humans, and imperial humans (though for those last two I haven't worked out a data structure I'm happy with to produce consistently-flavored races). Probably one or two other things as well - I have a painfully short attention span where NG is concerned...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 28, 2017, 06:38:20 pm
Post by: Kagus on September 30, 2017, 09:12:56 pm
So I was doing some more pretender chassis tests, running some ideas for LA R'lyeh as well as a quick into-the-water pretender for Jomon. That was really the entirety of the design philosophy, just "get Jomon underwater, ASAP".
The R'lyeh expansion pretender was an incredible failure, dying to the first province. The starting expansion force (supplemented with a few crabs) was also slaughtered to a man on the first excursion. I figured that was about as poorly as things could go, and just put them on AI control while I focused on Jomon.
Fast-forward a number of turns, and I've made contact with R'lyeh. As expected they haven't expanded a whole heck of a lot, but the dominion has started freespawning stuff so they've at least taken over a few adjacent seas... I don't think very much more of it and start creeping in on their real estate.
And that's when things turned. Hoo boy. Bastards got a vastness freespawn in the beginning of year 3, which they then presented to me in a not-particularly-friendly manner, along with about a dozen elder things and a smattering of illithid soldiers. Mind blast hell, in other words.
Now, shrimp soldiers may have void sanity... But they do NOT have magic resistance. Ohhhh no, not a bit... With a base MR of 8, my beefy underwater force evaporated within seconds, their puny little brains popping from the pressure of too much fhtagn. As part of my testing on Jomon, I was going to do a couple simple runs of seeing how an onmyo-ji communion would work out (I've even entertained some notions of picking up a bless to lay down on the free shikigami that spawn for each onmyo in a communion). And with that many stars being that right, that close to home... I realized it was time to really kick things into gear.
So eventually the rampaging mindblaster armada worked its way into kind of a dead-end between three of my castles, and I managed to catch them with my little communion army. Now, mind, I have little to no experience actually using communions, and this was the first time this particular party was seeing live combat... Unexpected things were to be expected.
It didn't take very long before things went wildly off-script, and instead of hurling fat ol' evocations across the battlefield, my caster pack sat around summoning REALLY big elementals (that promptly got stuck behind my front line), casting "enlarge" on each other, and casting berserk rage on the crossbowmen. Their big contribution was honestly just laying down flaming arrows for the samurai archers to pull a Longshanks on my shikigami.
Somehow, through sheer weight of manflesh, we managed to start gaining ground... And then something really weird happened. Going completely off the script, one of my onmyos decided to cast "paralyze" at the vastness. "Hah," I thought, "you've got absolutely penetration gear on you and 10 perception on a good day, even if you DO manage to hit him there's no way you- holy shit he just paralyzed a vastness".
Through some insane-crazy RNG roll, he managed to punch through that 20 MR and pinned the thing for some 20 turns worth of paralysis. What followed was a rather surreal end to the fight, wherein the berserk crossbowmen (accompanied by the few actual infantrymen I possessed) ran up and manfought the vastness with their daggers until it died.
Communions, man... Crazy shakes.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 30, 2017, 09:22:00 pm
10 perception on a good day, even if you DO manage to hit himParalyze has 100 spell precision, so that's never an issue.
Still, that's some RNGJesus' holy grace.
Post by: Kagus on October 05, 2017, 02:48:40 pm
After supaya summoning got throttled, there's really not much point trying to bank on reanimating the blighters. They're less skilled than their living huaca counterparts, and that's on top of having a weapon that can be completely shrugged off with MR. With a maximum of 4 per month per reanimator, getting any kind of decent mass is either going to take a long time or take a lot of reanimators... And good fucking luck massing the reanimators. The royal mallqui is legitimately the single most expensive non-unique unit in the game, and by a fair margin at that. Or you could just relegate your one, singular prophet to the duty of sitting in one province for the rest of the game and doing bugger-all. Not to mention your awesome go-to flying H3 can't even lead them without undead leadership items!
Your other sacreds are either the huacas, which are nice but potentially a little expensive at 15 pearls per 5 (or 7, with the headdress) huacas summoned; or the condors which are baller mundane units (and cheap!) but have puny MR (they're no Marverni boars, but still).
If you turn away from the sacreds Nazca keeps trying to push on you, you have... Not much. You've got slaves, but no taskmaster commanders. You've got cheapish flying lancers, which can be good fun... You've got some actually kinda useful undisciplined walking chaff, and you can even recruit them some places without a fort... And you've got short bows with 11 precision.
The mages are all over the place, but you've got some cool stuff in the living section and some RIDICULOUS potential on the royal mallquis... Seriously, 2 innate spellcaster, all those paths, 2 helmets and 4 misc slots? If you had some decent communion slaves, these things would be terrifying...
Problem is, you don't. Your cheapest astral mage is 235 gold for a 1-in-3 chance of 1S. Cross your fingers and wish for lizards.
But even if you do get some communiony goodness going, that's still an *850*-gold mage that's size 6 and only 18 HP, with a whole 5 prot to its name. So much expense for something that could pop at any moment, and it doesn't even have the common decency to fly...
I suppose there's something to be said about a flying squad of ready-to-go flaming arrows, but... Yeah. So much chaff, so little staying power.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 07, 2017, 01:54:01 am
Post by: Kagus on October 07, 2017, 06:24:46 am
The undead H3 units you get are either your prophet or the 850g cap-only royal mallqui. You aren't spamming anything.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 07, 2017, 08:20:47 am
... Still not very good tbh though.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 07, 2017, 08:53:14 am
Post by: Kagus on October 07, 2017, 09:29:27 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 07, 2017, 09:48:47 am
He could mean "eternal" in the sense of "never doing anything else again" or spawning enough of them that the supaya sea just goes on forever and ever.Pretty much what I was thinking the first few times he said that in our game with me as Therodos. By now it looks like a simple mistake.
Post by: E. Albright on October 07, 2017, 09:55:36 am
"That which is dead believes the ethereal lie. And with stray arrows even death may die..."
Post by: Kagus on October 07, 2017, 11:24:07 am
I will say one thing about Nazca though... Having very cheap/conscriptable non-mindless flying units is quite handy for anything regarding fortresses.
Been playing around a bit with some MA Jotunheim ideas... And damn, you'd have to search a long time to find a more versatile nation.
You're a giant nation (with all the recruitable beef that entails) with a pretty good spread of magic paths, some darn good battle mages (nether darts from the gygja, frost evocations from skratti), a whole selection of thug chassis, communion access, stealthy raiders (with pillage bonuses no less), sacreds that are actually really good and eminently buffable... You can pursue pretty much any kind of strategy and have the tools available to run with it. Undead swarms can potentially give you some grief due to poor priests, but you've got astral and death access to help out with that.
Hell, the "battle mage" angle can actually be taken a few different ways... You've got some fairly decent evocations at your fingertips for offensive mages, you've got loads of nature for defensive buffing and the size 1 vaetti will gobble up any kind of strength-related buffing and go on a murdering spree with it, and you've got access to communion-boosted astral and death magic for laying down some mean control spells. Not to mention blood/astral for ruining everything with horrors.
And only just now did I also realize that you could slap a black heart on a jotun scout in case you wanted a 32hp 22str assassin for 15 blood slaves.
Post by: E. Albright on October 07, 2017, 12:34:05 pm
Undead swarms can potentially give you some grief due to poor priests, but you've got astral and death access to help out with that.
You've also got fairly strong water, which helps clean up this sort of thing.
You sorta allude to Vaetti hags when you mention communion access, but they deserve more highlighting. 40g recruit-in-any-forest stealthy any-type-of-sorcerers are quite nice - if you have magic scales, they can even push through their poor research skills and be okay-ish lab rats while waiting for something nastier to do.
Post by: Kagus on October 07, 2017, 04:00:38 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 08, 2017, 08:49:50 am
I did a test game with em and while silly, the idea of going drain 3, never researching, just spamming ethereal undead ghosts with MR 14 (screw your priests) and two buffs of your choice.Day back, but you might have better luck with this with ghost ermor if you really want to do it. Do the same thing, but go triple-bless and spam their 0-research self-blessing mini wraith lords all over the place. Iirc a W/something or another (I want to say N?) consul can solo most indie provinces right from the start, and a handful bunched together can tear apart quite a number of armies.
... Still not very good tbh though.
Post by: Kagus on October 08, 2017, 09:37:17 am
Post by: Cruxador on October 08, 2017, 11:49:39 am
Isn't that pretty much the only semi-viable Lemuria strategy these days? Not necessarily triple bless or whatnot, but spamming consuls?Nah. Like the orthodox "stay home, be defensible, and fuck the world with globals" strategy, it lacks a good way to actually claim victory. Unless you're playing a small game and can do it quite quickly, anyway. But once people have forted most thrones, you're gonna have a bad time. Although if you count this kind of thing, you can "win" by making the game so un-fun that everyone else quits.
Post by: Frumple on October 08, 2017, 01:20:44 pm
The consuls are easily one of their biggest advantages (probably what I'd call one of the best national summons in the game given they're zero research on top of everything else they can manage, tbh), but ghost ermor still has other things they can leverage. Mostly the cheap/freespawn reanimators that can put out mostly better chaff than skeleton ermor or people ermor (though massing the reanimators is arguably easier with people ermor), but hey, that can go pretty far if you use it right, particularly when ghost ermor has hella' easier access to H3s you don't have much else to do with besides get 'em in fights.
E: Though that does cause the amount of ermors in this game to strike me again. I forget about it occasionally. People ermor, I think splinter people ermor, skeleton ermor, ghost ermor, pretty sure there's a lizard ermor or two, too? Might even be forgetting something. Illwinter likes ermor, apparently.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 08, 2017, 01:59:34 pm
Eternal Ermor, which went a bit too eternal and happily wants to share its eternity with everyone.
Ermor of averege eternity trying to outeternal too eternal ermor and snek ermor by reasonable necromancy.
Ermor, which tries to figure out, how to stay eternal without necromancy, but with HYDRAS and snaeks.
Even more eternal ermor then all other eternal ermors alltogether, so eternal, that it even got back dudes, who made first mentioned eternal Ermor so eternal with just gladius and pila, and they want to make it great again.
Post by: Cruxador on October 08, 2017, 02:00:20 pm
Post by: Kagus on October 08, 2017, 04:16:19 pm
Eternal Ermor of legions, Jesus and priests of ancient faith learning secrets of dark arts from lizardmen to make said eternal Ermor more eternal.
Eternal Ermor, which went a bit too eternal and happily wants to share its eternity with everyone.
Ermor of averege eternity trying to outeternal too eternal ermor and snek ermor by reasonable necromancy.
Ermor, which tries to figure out, how to stay eternal without necromancy, but with HYDRAS and snaeks.
Even more eternal ermor then all other eternal ermors alltogether, so eternal, that it even got back dudes, who made first mentioned eternal Ermor so eternal with just gladius and pila, and they want to make it great again.
I think you're missing I Can't Believe It's Not Eternal Ermor: More heresy, same great snaeks.
I believe lorewise Marignon is also an offshoot of Ermor, who felt that Ermor got too eternal for its own good because it simply didn't go to church often enough. Ulm used to be as well, before pre-Ulm was introduced.
...y'know, I'm just waiting for them to introduce a LA Oceania, and it's exactly the same as the first two. "Nation of change" my ass.
Mostly the cheap/freespawn reanimators that can put out mostly better chaff than skeleton ermor or people ermor (though massing the reanimators is arguably easier with people ermor)
I think I'd have to disagree on them having better reanimations than skellymor. Sure, an H1 being able to summon 10 size 1 ethereal paralyzing ghosts with massive morale but that aren't actually mindless is great, but the main problem Lemuria has is that most of its freespawns and reanimations simply don't do any damage.
One thing is the spectral legionnaires and velites and whatnot with their MR-negates weaponry, that's a perfectly fine price to pay for being ethereal... But dispossesed spirits and shadow soldiers only have paralyze as a weapon, which deals no actual HP damage (except in bizarre, undocumented overload-situations which I don't really understand how they work). The only reanimations that have health-damaging weapons are apparitions (which are a laughably poor substitute for the wailing ladies, but would've made great assassins if they were commanders. And stealthy) and shade beasts. Now, mind, shade beasts can be kinda cool, provided they don't get killed off thanks to their inherent squish... Hell, I even had one get the last bite in on a formless spawn, which somehow reanimated it as a soulless jotun. But the problem with shade beasts is that only H2 and up can summon them, and then only 1 at a time for H2, 2 for H3.
Ermor would also get usable (ableit weak) freespawn in "empty" provinces, while Lemuria *ONLY* gets dispossesed spirits in provinces without a temple. Having a temple will allow for a smattering of shade beasts and apparitions to show up, and having a fort will allow ghost Romans to spawn. But putting a temple in every province is perhaps a wee bit pricey, especially when your province defense is probably the worst of the bunch (the extra commander at 20 PD is actually WORSE than the one you get at 1 PD, as well as having only a small number of the generally whiffy spectral legions as your front line).
Oh, yeah... I also just lost my Lemurian pretender in a test game. Not to the enemy, which was getting soundly trounced, but to the pretender's own damn stupidity. He apparently felt that being behind everyone else was just TOO BORING, so the little frost father ran straight through everything until he could stand next to the apparitions in the front row.
Y'know, the ones with the plague cloud that diseases everything nearby. His tombstone shall read "DUNCE".
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on October 08, 2017, 04:24:03 pm
Quote
I believe lorewise Marignon is also an offshoot of Ermor, who felt that Ermor got too eternal for its own good because it simply didn't go to church often enough. Ulm used to be as well, before pre-Ulm was introduced.
Ulm still is as well, it got conquered before the middle age and made apart of Ermor.
Post by: Jilladilla on October 08, 2017, 04:34:47 pm
But dispossesed spirits and shadow soldiers only have paralyze as a weapon, which deals no actual HP damage (except in bizarre, undocumented overload-situations which I don't really understand how they work).
If I remember right, if you paralyze a target that's already paralyzed, the duration of the existing paralysis is compared to the new one. The victim is paralyzed for the longer of the two and then takes damage equal to half of the shorter.
Post by: E. Albright on October 08, 2017, 05:28:05 pm
Though that does cause the amount of ermors in this game to strike me again. I forget about it occasionally. People ermor, I think splinter people ermor, skeleton ermor, ghost ermor, pretty sure there's a lizard ermor or two, too? Might even be forgetting something. Illwinter likes ermor, apparently.
Would this be a bad time to mention that the next NG update is very probably gonna be ErmorGen? 'Cause it is.
Post by: Cruxador on October 08, 2017, 06:02:30 pm
Actually, that sounds good to me. Anything that brings the output of NG more in line with the vanilla flavor (under default settings) is a positive change in my opinion.Though that does cause the amount of ermors in this game to strike me again. I forget about it occasionally. People ermor, I think splinter people ermor, skeleton ermor, ghost ermor, pretty sure there's a lizard ermor or two, too? Might even be forgetting something. Illwinter likes ermor, apparently.
Would this be a bad time to mention that the next NG update is very probably gonna be ErmorGen? 'Cause it is.
Post by: E. Albright on October 08, 2017, 06:16:23 pm
We Shall See.
But if you're hoping for a rebalancing of default nation-type probabilities, you'll probably be disappointed, as revisiting that particular mess is not something that seems particularly interesting or TBH currently all that pressing.
Post by: Frumple on October 08, 2017, 10:38:28 pm
I think I'd have to disagree on them having better reanimations than skellymor. Sure, an H1 being able to summon 10 size 1 ethereal paralyzing ghosts with massive morale but that aren't actually mindless is great, but the main problem Lemuria has is that most of its freespawns and reanimations simply don't do any damage.Eh, think you underestimate things, possibly because you actually remember dispossessed spirits exist :P
Less tongue in cheek, it's the shadow soldiers you're after, especially the UW variants (frogs have +1 hp, tritons +8 AP). A lot of the MR resist issues become less when stuff's paralyzed, and unlike the spirits (or ghouls, for the other ermors) the shadows are actually worth a damn, heh. Workable attack, base 14 defense with dark power (incidentally, if you have deep water on the map, it's a good target for a reanimator pile. Harder to get rid of it, since any shadows waiting to get picked up get the darkness boost), actual HP even if it's still not much... they're nice. As chaff and for holding things down/fatiguing while your proper stuff kills them they're better than longdead in most cases I've seen, and for the freespawn H1s (and/or summoned ones, since the things are cheap gem wise) they're easily the best option you have.
... 'course, there's only two options, but seriously dispossessed spirits are friggin' garbage almost always, never waste turns reanimating them. You're getting the same amount of HP either way (unless you're underwater and get frogs, in which case you get more with the shadows), and the shadows are a lot better at everything else, particularly not getting hit, surviving at least a hit or two, and actually hitting things themselves, heh. You do still need the regular troops or somethin' as at least some degree of filler/dps, but it's not like that ain't true for non-ghost reanimation, too, heh.
Any case, as chaff qua chaff for reanimation about the only thing I'd think was better was specialty longdead, and I don't think there's many nations that can actually field that in meaningful numbers. 'Cept asphodel, anyway. Next time you give ghost ermor a whirl, beeline for the nearest water province, drop a lab on adjacent land, and start dumping tribunes into the water to build up shadow balls. Might have better luck, heh.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 09, 2017, 02:14:09 am
Btw: Wouldn't it be grand if you could pick dominion effects from options like blessed in the upcoming Dom5?
"I choose... Trees animate to defend themselves - 1 ent / dominion candle"
" the ability to destroy gem-sites for 10x there gem production. Takes 3 turns of deconstruction and displays a warning symbol"
" Freespawn... Frogs/Undead/Plants/Raiders/Dreamers/Wolves or "Every 100 unused supplies = 1 militia"
_______
My fav, if useless, spam nation is still EA maverni - with the holy pigs : )
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2017, 03:17:15 am
I suppose the extra defense means fewer repel deaths, but they're still just as vulnerable to ranged attacks as anyone. I'unno, I mostly use spirits to tire out an army and preoccupy them while the actual troops move in on the sides to bite and pretend-stab them. But I'll focus on massing shadows next time around and see how things go (also try and not let my pretender go out for drinks with plague bombs, goddamn idiot).
EDIT: Nevermind, I see a big reason to swap over. Shadow soldiers have 3 map move, spirits have 2.
Post by: E. Albright on October 09, 2017, 04:48:42 am
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2017, 09:34:47 am
Spirits also require corpses, and are undisciplined.
True, but there are going to be a lot of corpses around at the start of the game, and being undisciplined isn't that big of a deal when they're neither ranged nor fast and have 30 morale. Considering they're chaff anyways, it doesn't make much difference which way you throw them to their dooms.
So, I've always had kind of a fascination with LA Pythium, and from what I've seen and what little I've heard, they're also considered one of the "difficult" nations to play, thanks to most of their magical diversity being spread between either heretics or cap-only mages.
However, I've come across a couple interesting little points in my data trawling... Namely, we have the Mystes, which is a 40g -2 research mage recruitable anywhere with a lab. This means they're the same price and research ability as vaetti hags, while being more available (any province, as opposed to just forests). However, while they don't have the amazing versatility of picking between any of the sorcery paths, they do have a 10% chance of an extra point in either earth or nature, which would bump their research up even more and potentially allow them to cast some more useful spells. The Mystes is also the only "mystery cult" commander that isn't actually a heretic, so you can freely stockpile them inside your dominion.
After that is the Leo, a slightly-better centurion with 1F, heretic, 5 fire resist (plus magic bonus), and fire power. For fire magery the Leo generally falls behind the Heliodromus in desirability, even though they do have 1 less point of heresy, but the Leo has better combat stats. Fatigue would be a problem, but as they're recruit-anywhere for 80gp and fairly robust for being humans, there might be something doable with pushing them out as minithugs who can cast fire shield and then kill a couple enemy mooks thanks to fire shield, combat skill and fire power. Get a bunch of them together and they'll even make for a pretty hilarious raiding/invasion force thanks to the stacked heresy of having all of them together. The fire resist lets them avoid the extra fatigue from exceptionally hot provinces, which also lets them make full usage of fire power. They've got a 10% chance of an extra Nature pick as well, but I'm not sure what all you'd do with that...
Post by: Cruxador on October 09, 2017, 09:36:06 am
Btw: Wouldn't it be grand if you could pick dominion effects from options like blessed in the upcoming Dom5?Sounds like the system before there were ages. I think keeping a thing which differentiates nations is preferable, though.
Quote
My fav, if useless, spam nation is still EA maverni - with the holy pigs : )Not useless. They're good blockers for your mages, which are also good by virtue of being cheap and therefore plentiful. Heavily blessing them is a trap option, but so it is for most things. Although since they're tramplers, the size increase bless in Dominions 5 should go a lot to make them more killy against human - sized things, which will be especially useful since Marverni has magic generally better suited to dealing with small groups of elites. Although the spell cast time change is going to nerf the heck out of them anyway, I reckon.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 09, 2017, 10:03:57 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 09, 2017, 10:06:33 am
No money, they all starved if I went to far from my capital and some spells just killed em all instantly, but it was fun regardless.
_______
As for double shields, I recall reading that only the blocking one triggers, but both try to block. No source, so no certainity.
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2017, 10:22:48 am
Post by: E. Albright on October 09, 2017, 10:45:26 am
Post by: Frumple on October 09, 2017, 02:13:32 pm
Now, whether it's dependent on which blocks or just randoms one when you block, I couldn't say. Don't recall if you can fiddle with the combat log whatsit to get that detailed, either.
* Incidentally, yes, I have done this relatively often. Tend to play with it if I'm late game and have more resources than I have sufficient interest in micro to spend them. It's amusing, but the whole kick problem makes it sketchy. Probably be stronger if they just didn't have an attack at all when built like that, and just walked up to the enemy and taunted them or summat.
E:what the hell are you doing clipboard
Post by: JimboM12 on October 10, 2017, 10:13:26 am
which leads me to a massive noob question; do blessings help normal troops in anyway? cuz i know it does for sacred units
Post by: Frumple on October 10, 2017, 10:16:11 am
Post by: Cruxador on October 10, 2017, 10:22:41 am
im not nearly as deep into this game as some but i have fun playing it like a simple strategy game; i barely make use of magic at all. Mass infantry led by empowered commanders. it helps that i play usually play as either middle ages Man or Marignon.Even if you play purely troop based combat, there's a lot of strategy to the game and unit positioning. You're definitely missing a lot by not using magic, though. Try easing into it by just sending a mage or two along with your armies. But Dominions 5 has balance changes that seem likely to reduce mage dominance a lot, so proficiency with troops will become more useful.
which leads me to a massive noob question; do blessings help normal troops in anyway? cuz i know it does for sacred units
As to your actual question, blessings are for sacreds only. There's no effect on other units.
It does not, near as I can recall. There's holy spells that do, but blessing specifically isn't one of them. Closest thing to an exception is the shroud whatsit for commanders, maybe one or two other things.The shroud also makes them sacred. Making a unit into your prophet does the same. And in Dominions 5, your pretender will always be blessed (but in 4, doesn't even count as sacred).
Post by: Kagus on October 10, 2017, 11:21:58 am
Ran a test game of LA Ulm yesterday, had some fun. Tried doing a rainbow dwarf, but found that nearly everything I was trying to forge with him could have been handled by the black priests, and I'd neglected to put nature on him for site searching and clam duty.
Then he walked past a hidden disease-spreading site and got himself sick. Again, no nature so I couldn't make a cure-all elixir. First response was to rush twiceborn and just accept that he was going to lose his forge master trait, but then I remembered blood feast and rushed that afterwards (after smacking myself in the head).
I've been noticing that there are some special abilities that aren't reflected in the mod inspector. MA Caelum's ice crafters have a special ice forging ability that provides extra resources based on how cold the province is, while LA Ulm's Patrifagus can summon ghoul allies (not reanimation, as province population doesn't appear to drop when doing this).
That, uh... Was an interesting game, regardless. Massively faffed around in the early game, couldn't figure out who I wanted to prophetized for the first few turns until I remembered that you can recruit undead commanders for reanimation, so I did that. Gameplay after that basically devolved into me not quite knowing what to do with my pretender (this is when I found out that the dwarf pretender has map move 1... Not so awesome for a site searcher), putting labs everywhere and amassing hordes of illuminated ones. Capital city made a few pikes and rangers to help pad out the expansion force (which was already an elite squad of triple-star veterans who effectively never ran from anything), then switched over to making wolfherds for the rest of the game.
By the time I suffered a couple big dumb losses (to AI Lemuria of all things, heheh) and decided to close that round of testing, I had so many wolfherds sitting in the capital that I had something like 50-60 wolves spawned every turn for the indie commanders passing through to pick up. Big dumb fun.
I had of course neglected all research into spells that would actually buff soldiers, so these wolves died by the hundreds to any sort of resistance... Great patrollers though, haha.
As an aside, I've been wondering about something... I've noticed that even when magic paths get "removed" (such as from changing shape into a dragon or similar), the unit still keeps the side benefits of having those paths, such as +protection for earth magic. I wonder, if you have a commander with B1 and a -1 modifier to blood, will they slave hunt as a B1 mage, or as a mundane commander?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 10, 2017, 12:32:30 pm
im not nearly as deep into this game as some but i have fun playing it like a simple strategy game; i barely make use of magic at all. Mass infantry led by empowered commanders. it helps that i play usually play as either middle ages Man or Marignon.A lot of the advice on the internet overstates the importance and easiness of magic, because its from dom3 where fast magic research was the standard. Nowadays magic takes a lot longer to come into play in a meaningful way. It can be a little discouraging for new players.
which leads me to a massive noob question; do blessings help normal troops in anyway? cuz i know it does for sacred units
Post by: E. Albright on October 10, 2017, 12:49:50 pm
First response was to rush twiceborn and just accept that he was going to lose his forge master trait, but then I remembered blood feast and rushed that afterwards (after smacking myself in the head).
If you had the death to think about Twiceborn, you could have also tried rushing Cons6 for the typically-forgotten E3D3 Eye Pendant.
Post by: Kagus on October 10, 2017, 12:57:18 pm
Making a realization, I decided to try out a little funtime experiment with a Teotl of the night and a simple blood bless for the beast bats he summons when jumping into the enemy capital on turn 3/4.
While I could indeed ruin precisely one person's day as MA Xibalba, it eventually backfired completely (got caught by province defense and died retreating) and was never really powerful enough to do much more than kill off a few thaumaturges and grand thaumaturges who thought they were safe. Meanwhile my own forces were left completely without expansion power and just sat around in the capital having some nice random events.
EDIT: Ran a game as EA Pangaea, trying to make a focus on spamming vine ogres. Ended up taking a ghost king with 3 death, which felt kind of odd for the "thriving nature" theme of Pan, but ends up theoretically working out with their nature gem income and the kind of summons they have access to.
That said, it didn't take very long before I realized that everything I wanted to do with vine people, I was already accomplishing with national troops and commanders. The black harpy is still one of the best and most versatile scouts in the game, and Pan's revelers are amazing footsoldiers capable of punching well above their weight, especially when buffered by a meatshield of maenads. EA also has access to minotaurs before they get it into their heads to bulk up with heavy metal armor and ruin their encumbrance values.
Their mages are bloody expensive for what's delivered though, but EA Panii can at least come out in some very useful configurations, and EA's dryads are clam-capable straight out of the gate, should you happen to have some astral mages that could use something like that.
All this led me to thinking about LA Pan though... The only one of the bunch to not have the outstanding revelers, replaced only by slightly-lighter hoplites (costing 2 more resources and having 1 less MR than their MA components) and resource-heavy snipers. They also don't have the similarly amazing berserking centaur warriors, instead having just the heavily-armored centaur cataphracts and their impressively large encumbrance due to not counting as "mounted".
What LA Pan does have are astral mages. Cheap, beefy, adept-researcher astral mages with a random pick in some of the best combat casting schools. Perhaps more interesting is the fact that these S1 mages can actually shrug off feeblemindedness, should they happen to pick it up along the way. The little bastards even have 13 precision out of the box, and all for 90 gold! Even not being sacred, they're an awesome deal.
While the Panii of the New Era are somewhat lackluster, they are still pretty good nature mages, especially for LA. Once you hit Alteration 6 you could just eat them all with Transformation and see what sticks, since there are some nice crosspaths they can (very) rarely present with, and since they don't produce maenads there's really no reason to keep them in their natural shape unless you desperately need someone with beastmaster 1 and animal awe.
The Keeper of the Grove is... Well, it *looks* like it's a potential sacred thug, but you're paying 155 gold for something with "elite militia" levels of attack and defense, and it's a heavily-encumbered trampler to boot. Stacked on top of berserking, he's a great big toddler raging in the last few minutes before naptime. A whopping MR 12 rounds out the whole package.
From what I can figure, the unique stymphalian bird troops are too little, too late... Against LA's generally more armored troops, a single-use area attack of 8 damage probably isn't going to get you very far... But then again, I honestly haven't used these guys enough to say for sure one way or the other.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 11, 2017, 02:18:25 am
Earth [Amazing summons, blade storm, earthquake, the armor buffs, rust etc...]
Death [Has all the game winners [[TM]]]
Nature [Summons, best buffs in the game]
Astral [Cool tricks and globals]
Water
Blood
Fire
(air)
Air tends to come attached to complicated nations and technically has cool skills, but as stated, if you want to actually get anywhere you only have one option...
Post by: Frumple on October 11, 2017, 08:42:04 am
Post by: AlStar on October 11, 2017, 08:50:35 am
Post by: Kagus on October 11, 2017, 09:51:05 am
Water has stuff like falling frost, ice strike, liquify, cleansing water for undead/demon swarms, even just curse of the desert can be quite useful... And if you feel like spending gems (such as through the cons4 5-gem water sphere which gives you a free water gem every battle) you've got quickening, wave warriors, the rather nasty niefel flames as well as demon cleansing for even more anti-demon power.
Earth is particularly notable in Pangaea's case, because the centaur sages will be able to cast gifts from heaven when boosted +2 levels, with base 13 precision and the ability for other sages to cast communion-wide eagle eye and aim for even more precision. Plus the usual earthpowering the communion, destruction+blade wind, strength of giants and weapons of sharpness (probably what was intended for the stymphalian birds, as an 8 damage AOE attack is nowhere near as threatening as an 8 damage armor piercing AOE attack). Earthquake has some interesting usage as well, as the centaurs all start off with 23 hitpoints... considerably more than your standard humie wizardling.
Nature's nice too, having someone around with gems to put down a relief enchantment can be very nice for a taxed communion.
Post by: MCreeper on October 16, 2017, 06:51:27 am
Jomon. Lucked out kingdom of Eludia just nearby home province. Captured throne of bones, get necromancer and some zombie mooks from it. Fighted for a bit with Tien Chi, built castle at but not captured another throne(forgot that you need a prophet for this, dammit), built provincial defence and some native archer cavalry, was pushed back to one province around my home and throne of bones. I then turtled down and continued to spam onmyo-jis and eludian mages for a while. Tien Chi made few attempts at capturing second throne with 20 mooks(why? bot sometimes refuses to see provincial defence?), then get a bit beaten by Ragha and turtled too.
On turn ~45 i suddenly event on province with second throne(stuck between Ragha, Tien Chi capital with 400+ nature summons (where the hell they get so much gems?) and my unwillingness to give it up) - ruler get posessed by demon! This causes turmoil tomax out, and constantly causes unrest events. And i have absolutely no way to banish damn thing, because my closest priest is 5 enemy provinces apart from it. Ok, patrol can deal with unrest, so i don't care much.
Then, Ragha terrythory nearby throne of bones get captured by freaking HORDE of Ulm troops. There was 800 of them in one stack, and some more roaming around. I hastely move all my mages(25 onmyos and 9 eludians) to the throne. I formed all of them in a communion, with eludian mage leader, which was supposed to cast light of the northern star to buff everyone to 3 astral. Then 2 more eludians will cast antimagic and astral healing. Everyone else spams with soul slay and stellar cascades. Regular troops are standing in place, militia first. Probably not the best plan, but should work.
Ulm wasn't eager to attack me for some reason, so when i noticed 200-250 army, i decided to attack myself.
I forgot that if you want stealth units to attack, you must press Ctrl+RMB. Thrice goddamned eludians didn't show up for a party. So, no soul slays, no antimagic, no regen. I winned the battle, killed all their summons, but losed 20 onmyos, partially because i forgot about archers, and giving mages at least some protection against them. But now i have on this province 14 mages total(necromancer died too), ~300 troops half of which is militia, and 800+ army just nearby. Help.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
(https://i.imgur.com/8OZVQCz.png)
Seriously?
EDIT: No help needed, Ulm divivded his doomstack in many 200 stacks, which i promptly slaughtered with minimal looses. And yes, it's really underwater Lemuria. With Growth 3, Productivity 2, Order 2, Luck 3, Magic 1 and Temperature -1. :-\ Developers really wasn't able to make Lemuria AI to not pick literraly worst things possible?
Post by: Frumple on October 16, 2017, 09:20:32 am
... other major part isn't really applicable to single player, but it can also be an attempt to make your nation not quite as much of a pain in the arse to have a neighbor. Attempt to mitigate the likelihood/quickness of other players ganging up on you before you dominion ruins everything it touches, heh.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 18, 2017, 08:38:10 pm
Post by: Karlito on October 18, 2017, 08:54:34 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 19, 2017, 03:39:28 am
Post by: Kagus on October 19, 2017, 06:31:00 am
But yeah, AoE things go right through.
EDIT: Okay, not sure where I got the mundane projectiles thing, because it doesn't show up on the normal air shield spell description or buff description... I could've sworn there was at least some variant of the effect that specified it was for defense against mundane projectiles.
Anyways, did some testing with Nazca and Twiceborn, because I got curious. Turns out, TB takes priority over mummification, so if a coya or hurin priest has cast TB and dies, they will return as a wight mage and will NOT come back as a mummy.
However, it has no effect on the ritual sacrifice of a coya if an inca dies and is to be mummified. TB gets completely bypassed, and the coya dies and is made part of the mummy bundle as usual.
What I was really testing, however, was reanimation. Unfortunately, incas cannot naturally spawn with death magic, which is a shame because they're the only living H3 priest Nazca has... But if you empower an inca, hand him a skull staff to cast Twiceborn, then send him off to get killed (preferably after returning the staff to the lab...), the resulting wight mage will be able to call supayas, same as the royal mallqui. The difference being that the wight mage costs no upkeep.
...now, mind, that's 60 death gems put into making the damn thing, discounting the staff. For that price you could cast "summon supayas" 6 times, resulting in 30-42 supayas (if I'm remembering correctly and the headdress adds +2 to summon spells). It'd take a reanimator 10 turns with a headdress to summon 30 supayas, and 14 turns to get 42.
So if you're looking at a long-term investment, I suppose it's technically a possibility...
I also learned some other interesting stuff, like how the "reanimate archers" spell (banefire bows, whoop whoop) is affected by reanimator bonuses. This means that Manco-Ocllo, who has a 4/4 bonus naturally, when wielding an amulet of the dead, will raise 16 archers per casting. Just a nifty little tidbit.
Also, geoglyphs instantly raises the magic scale of the province it's cast in by 2 points, which is pretty huge. This lasts for the entire duration of the spell, which I *believe* is 3 turns +1/extra pearl spent? Not quite sure.
EDIT2: In case anyone was wondering, putting a fever fetish and a disease grinder on the same unit will let both items work simultaneously. +2 fire gems and +1 death gems per turn.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 25, 2017, 10:22:59 am
And can troops under siege desert?
(I know, should run a test, but please, help my lazy arse if you know)
Post by: AlStar on October 25, 2017, 10:35:27 am
Not sure about the second, but I'd assume they do desert.
Post by: Gigalith on October 25, 2017, 11:17:40 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 25, 2017, 11:20:46 am
Post by: Kagus on October 28, 2017, 06:57:07 am
You'll end up with a level 10 priest (as well as 4S4F4E4A8N).
In other news, I have determined that Shinuyama is actually Mordor.
Post by: Cruxador on October 28, 2017, 12:23:28 pm
In other news, I have determined that Shinuyama is actually Mordor.how do you figure?
Post by: Kagus on October 28, 2017, 02:26:28 pm
Sauron's also always been known as one to pull whatever allies he can out of the dark forests and fetid crevices of the world, and Shinuyama's non-bakemono lineup really kinda speaks to that.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 28, 2017, 03:22:18 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 28, 2017, 03:34:45 pm
Post by: Kagus on October 28, 2017, 07:56:07 pm
Hell, read their national hero's backstory. Yukinaga served as the bodyguard of a sorceror until he was taught black magic and eventually learned the secret to his master's immortality, at which point he murdered his charge, mimicked the ritual for life eternal and then slaughtered 7 other warlords in order to gain control of their clans in his bid for power.
And eh, I really don't think Shinuyama is encouraged to go Turmoil. Yomi is, because of all its recruitable demons (and the ones in the PD) with chaos power/recruit, but Shinuyama would need to spend gems in order to get oni, and nobody's gonna do that. Heck, considering your primary mage for both research and battlefield duty is 395 gold a pop, I'd say you'd want as much cash as you could possibly squeeze out of your territories.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 29, 2017, 03:08:46 pm
And that's kind of what I mean. E. Albright put it better. A world conquered by Yomi still has plenty of life in it, its just a very harsh world for humans to survive in. Whereas victory for Mordor is implied to mean the destruction or corruption of all life in Middle Earth, down to and including plants.
I'm trying to think of how to explain it. Yomi is inspired by a lot of old myths, and in those myths the supernatural can be bad or good depending on how you treat it. Don't walk off the path, be polite, say your charm so the milk doesn't spoil, that kind of thing. If creatures from that kind of myth take over the world, they're not going to wipe out humans or turn it into a blasted hellscape. They're just going to go on gleefully doing whatever it is that they do and humans will have to live with it. Whereas if Sauron wins, the implication is that all life in Middle Earth will be destroyed or corrupted. Down to and including plants.
Post by: Frumple on October 29, 2017, 03:52:14 pm
Lot more didn't go the localized disaster route and "just" had a diet of human (parts) or somethin', too. Plenty of times they're capricious as all hell and whether or not you walk away on foot, crawling, or in something's stomach is effectively an RNG check. Roll whatever diplo number you feel the DC ain't a persuasion or etiquette check bub, shoulda' used that cha as a dump stat. You had your be polite ones and you had your run the hell away and pray you fall off a cliff or somethin' instead of get caught.
Basically y'might be underselling what "just live with it" would probably mean, heh. I'm not entirely sure a environment where those critters were actually around and active, as opposed to stories and the occasional event attributed to 'em, would be much more livable for humans than a mordor world tour. Lot of ways you'd basically be taking much of the many, many ills of mankind in the olden times and personifying the bunch of 'em. It's one thing where folks think they're real and a rather different one when they're physically walking down the street, ha.
There may indeed end up a with a lot more stuff still living, though. I'm just not entirely sure how much of it would be humans :P
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2017, 04:48:15 pm
...now what's funny here, of course, is that you've got nations like EA/LA Mictlan, where their units have a lot to do with life, nature and the wild (with the odd Tlahuelpuchi thrown in for good malevolent measure), but their dominion is almost certainly not conducive to anything living. At least not in any form of comfort, heh.
Also, I kinda feel that Sauron's obliterative nature is perhaps suffering from a bit of overselling. He's cruel and ruthless in achieving his goals, and much of Mordor and the surrounding areas have been clear-cut and strip-mined in order to make that a reality. But provided he actually managed to retake the world and fulfill his dreams of conquest? I really don't think he'd care to eradicate all life. To my knowledge there's nothing saying that a Sauron-controlled middle earth would automatically be ground into dust, it's just that he uses whatever resources are available.
...and then some blasted half-man just walks in and ruins everything anyways. What a sham.
Post by: E. Albright on October 29, 2017, 06:28:10 pm
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2017, 06:40:04 pm
Sure beats LA Ulm.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 30, 2017, 12:16:35 am
Is this normal? I've never seen it happen before.
Post by: Jilladilla on October 30, 2017, 12:56:04 am
I've just had two gurus mind duel two sages, and in both cases both duellists died.
Is this normal? I've never seen it happen before.
Mind Duel is quite simple, both sides roll and add their base astral magic to that, if I remember right. Boosters, communions, Power of the Spheres, Light of the Northern Star do not apply to increase your odds.
Considering a Sage is S1, and a Guru is S2, it would be:
Sage Roll + 1 VS Guru Roll + 2. With a Tie both Duelists die
The Guru has an advantage yes, but losing 0 for 2 would not be unreasonable. A tie would be a bit stranger as the dice would have to line up in a very particular way, but again, strange but not unreasonable.
Really, the oddity I saw is that my sage won the first duel, killing the attacking Guru, but the second duel, a tie killed both my sages... Which is what makes me scratch my head... (Is Magic Duel actually AoE 1 and not single target? As both of the Sages were on the same square.)
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 30, 2017, 01:09:32 am
Post by: E. Albright on October 30, 2017, 01:10:37 am
IIRC, there was a consensus that it was doing an AoE, and that it shouldn't be. I'd report that in the bug thread on Steam; as JK is in active dev mode for Dom5 right now, but still reading/responding to the Dom4 bug thread, it seems like a good time to maybe see it squashed.
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2017, 04:17:46 am
Except for the colossal fetish, because he can't be affected by it even if he does take Astral.