Notquitethere: If you were one of the cops in the situation posed to UI, what would you do as the real cop? As the fake cop?Well as the real cop I'd try to get the fake cop lynched. Come night time if neither of us was lynched, I'd inspect whoever damn well wasn't lynching the fake cop, as that's probably the fake cop's buddy. As the fake cop I'd try to lynch the cop, and failing that, I'd night kill someone other than that cop, hoping to hit the jailkeeper. Does that all make sense? What would you do?
Everyone: What are your pre-Q/A gut feelings? Do you have any "My seventh sense says to vote this guy" premonitions, ever?I don't work off premonitions. But shooting from the hip, I'll predict it's a Worldmaster/Varee team. Who do you think?
Does that all make sense? What would you do?Yeah, it makes sense. My own actions would probably be the same. Unvote.
I don't work off premonitions. But shooting from the hip, I'll predict it's a Worldmaster/Varee team. Who do you think?
@NQT, going by what people tell me to do , it would be band wagoning and more than normal friendliness/hostility toward someone. Remaining under the radar is what my gut say though.Your gut is more right on this one: scum win by being sufficiently ignored.
*notquitethere - By asking about what people look for in scum, does that make people more likely to avoid it and make it harder to spot them?I recall playing a game where I signalled very strongly what I was looking to find in town players, and the scum subsequently acted differently so they fit in with what I expected to see in town. So that can be a danger. Ultimately though, town hammer scum on their weakest point: scum don't genuinely want to find scum. Weak hunting and bad cases and keeping a low profile aren't infallible scum signs, but they're all things good town players do better and more naturally than even the best of scum players.
Urist Imiknorris — Is it important that everyone talks to everyone else on Day 1?Nope. D1 is basically a crapshoot because nobody knows anything (except the scum but they aren't telling). The primary objective is to start gaining information, and worrying about everyone doing it in a specific way is just a distraction.
Urist Imiknorris: If you were the Jailkeeper, and the other players were someone accusing you of being scum and two people claiming cop, and one other person who was actively lurking, which one would you jailkeep?Since there's basically no way anyone but a 'cop' will be lynched that day:
Everyone: What are your pre-Q/A gut feelings? Do you have any "My seventh sense says to vote this guy" premonitions, ever?My gut feeling is that I shouldn't have eaten that burrito.
*Urist Imiknorris - Do you trust in gut feeling?Not when it comes to Mafia.
Deathsword: How do you stand on the random voting phase? Are you against it or for it? How do you most take advantage of it?I think it is useful to get the game going, which is the whole point of RVS. It's not often that you can actually get a tell on it, however, but it does happen. As to how to get the tells, it varies from player to player. Some crack easily under pressure, while others might slip up on a question that, at first glace, seemed trivial
Deathsword — Is this game set up town or scum sided (or neither)? Why?I haven't been paying much attention to the BMs since the shift from the old system so I can't tell exactly how scum-sided it is. That said, I think it is less scum-sided than the old setup, mostly due to the lack of a godfather and the presence of a town roleblock.
Everyone: What are your pre-Q/A gut feelings? Do you have any "My seventh sense says to vote this guy" premonitions, ever?I try not to metagame before D1 starts. Mostly because that ends with me tunneling someone and missing tells from the real scum.
*Deathsword - What would be the best thing to do when you are about to be lynched?Continue pressing the case you had before, while, of course, defending yourself to a reasonable extent. If you must choose between either, however, pressing your case takes priority.
Deathsword: Do you think all this talk of gut feelings is productive?It might be, but I don't much like to go by gut feeling, as it often turns out to be quite wrong.
Scripten: If you were to be lynched on the first day, what would you do to make your death as informative as possible? If you were to be lynched the second day, what would you different?
Everyone: What are your pre-Q/A gut feelings? Do you have any "My seventh sense says to vote this guy" premonitions, ever?
Scripten — What's a good RVS question?
Scripten - What do you think is the most suspicious thing you can do during RVS?
How do you feel about being in more than one game at a time? Do you think it might divide your focus?I'm slightly unsure of my choice to join in, but at the moment I think I'll be able to manage both. I also hope that this will provide more experience for me, which can't be a bad thing.
I don't think we've played a game together before. How would you characterise your playstyle?I've only finished one BM game (#49) as scum, and I am currently in BM #50. So far, I'm not sure how to characterize my playstyle beyond "Work-In-Progress" However, looking at BM #49, I tried to play like town with a town mindset as much as possible, and try to think like scum only at night.
What would make you trust that someone is a memeber of town?Being active and scumhunting, as well as being as transparent as possible.
TheDarkStar: Do you prefer setups with many or few players? Why?
TheDarkStar: Will your IC duties in BM50 distract you from playing your best in this game?
Everyone: What are your pre-Q/A gut feelings? Do you have any "My seventh sense says to vote this guy" premonitions, ever?
TheDarkStar — do you have a handle on the play-styles of the other players?
*TheDarkStar - What is your opinion on dropping out mid game? does it benefit a certain side more than other?
When should you reveal yourself as a cop?If I'd found scum, and I did't think they'd found me, I would give it about a day or two, depending on when mafia is found and how many are left. If it's the last mafia, claiming right away will save the town a bit of time and win the game. If there's two, that's when I would prefer to wait to see if I can deduce from the day game who might the other scum be and check them. If I'm about to be lynched, I'd claim even if I haven't found scum and post all of my reads. That way the information will be out there if the scum kill me during the night/town is suspicious and lynches me.
Scripten: Is there anything else you would do right before a lynch, your own or someone else, whether to gain information or something else? And what do you mean when you say "Day 1 reads are usually crap"?
Scripten: Is there anything else you would do right before a lynch, your own or someone else, whether to gain information or something else? And what do you mean when you say "Day 1 reads are usually crap"?
Uh... I guess it depends on the circumstances.
Day 1 reads are usually not too accurate. Sometimes a really good player can start suspecting the scumteam by the first lynch, but it's pretty rare.
Where's Persus13?Lurking. Tuesdays are my busiest day, and I find that making a first post tends to take a bit of effort.
Persus13: What is your stance on a liar?I don't believe in lynching all liars, however lying tends to be a pretty strong scum tell, after all, the scum are lying in that they are town. I have on occasion seen town players lie, the example I can think of off the top of my head is Jim Groovestar in the last Paranormal game lying about his role. I can't remember why that was, but I think it had to do with being less of a target for scum. However, this game I doubt town players will lie because of how few roles there are in the game.
Everyone: What are your pre-Q/A gut feelings? Do you have any "My seventh sense says to vote this guy" premonitions, ever?
Persus13 — What's worse: a laughably weak lynching case, or no case at all?I'd have to determine it by contextual evidence. However, lacking that, I'd say a laughably weak case, because scum players would try to put a bit of effort into their case, instead of just voting someone for no reason.
*Persus13 - What do you think is more important, asking random question or answering them?Answering them. Responses are usually longer and more detailed, and give insight into how someone thinks, with room for follow-up. They also can be used to match words and actions later on, find scummy statements, or cause the conversation to continue.
Varee: Why didn't you answer Varee's question to you? Do you have something to hide?Are you joking or did you mistype a name?
Persus13: Why are you lurking so hard?I lurk, I'm a lurker (not really, but I've lurked much more recently)
D1 is basically a crapshootDefine crapshoot.
Persus13: If, as scum, you had a daykill, who would you kill right now?You, for knowing about it, or NQT, because I think of him as a good player. If the two of you are on my team I'd probably take out UI, because he's probably the most experienced player here.
Why not flabort? A little gambit here and there always get more conversation started. I feel like there isnt any good discussion topic yet......Part of the definition of a gambit is that it's a risk. I usually have a reason to base my gambit on, something that makes it worth it. If I began a gambit right now, it would be for gambit's sake, and just detract from the towns ability to find scum. Like my last gambit in BYOR13.
I know it the only thing we can do to get rid of scum and it is really hard to confirm your target before lynching, so i guess it is necessary.It's understandable to be reticent to mislynch, but as you say, lynching is necessary. A 'policy lynch' is sometimes used to lynch lurkers, for instance. In the games you've played before do you think you should have been able to work out who the scum were in hindsight?
So NQT, if you are a role cop and you find scum n1, will you claim the next day? Or will you wait it out a bit?I believe the correct technique is to try to get them lynched without mentioning who they are, but if the other town members aren't taking the bait, you then claim that you're a cop. You definitely don't let the inspected scum live without telling anyone.
given that you are an active player with little history of not putting thought into something, I figured it would be easy for you, though.OK, so ask me a trickier question.
Nope. D1 is basically a crapshoot because nobody knows anything (except the scum but they aren't telling). The primary objective is to start gaining information, and worrying about everyone doing it in a specific way is just a distraction.OK, what's the most useful kind of information to draw out of people at this stage (assuming, you know, that scum don't typically openly spill their alignment on D1).
NQT:Probably decrease the number and complexity of plots and schemes. But it is worth noting that complex plans don't always or even often succeed. After playing lots of role-mad set ups recently, I'm looking forward to working on my day game in this game. Do you foresee the game being won on the back of the cop/jailkeeper, or do you think traditional scum hunting will win the day?what value x needs to be so x = n^(q*t)Do you feel the lack of power roles in any significant amount increases or decreases the complexity of plans players may hatch, regardless of alignment?
Ask me one such question.Scripten — What's a good RVS question?One that gets us out of RVS as fast as possible.
NQT:Do you think this game will be more or less challenging than BM #49?QuoteI don't think we've played a game together before. How would you characterise your playstyle?I've only finished one BM game (#49) as scum, and I am currently in BM #50. So far, I'm not sure how to characterize my playstyle beyond "Work-In-Progress" However, looking at BM #49, I tried to play like town with a town mindset as much as possible, and try to think like scum only at night.
How important do you think Day 1 is? What makes you think that?Day 1 is mostly important for establishing interactions between different players, which is useful for when the first scum team member flips. Also, some inexperienced scum players flail under pressure and can be caught out early.
Great! give me a quick summary of how you see the other players play-styles. Also, any reason for being particularly taciturn?TheDarkStar — do you have a handle on the play-styles of the other players?Yes.
notquitethere: If, as town, you had a daykill, who would you kill right now?I probably wouldn't use it at this stage as I have no strong suspects and there are so few town power-roles it seems unwise to shoot blindly. But if I had to use it, I'd get rid of the least experienced player, as we would lose the least by their death.
I'd have to determine it by contextual evidence. However, lacking that, I'd say a laughably weak case, because scum players would try to put a bit of effort into their case, instead of just voting someone for no reason.That's a fair amount of faith you have there in the prowess of the scum team. Do you see yourself forming a case by the end of today?
UI: OK. What would your reaction to the player accusing you of being scum in that situation be?I'd defend myself against their argument while pushing my own case. Unless they're being actively scummy, the lurker takes jailing priority.
Urist Imiknorris: What day do you think is most important?Day 2, because there's been a lynch for people to learn from, a round of night actions for PRs, the least chance of PR death.
Urist: Why don't you trust in gut feeling?Because when I've trusted it, I've only been right once. Besides, even if it's right, gut feeling is't the best thing to try to lynch someone on.
Are you joking or did you mistype a name?Neither. I'm genuinely curious why he only went halfway with it.
Define crapshoot.http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crapshoot
@TDs, my question to you would be "What can you do?" If people are voting you during RVS, there not really anyhing info you can use to prove that you are on their side, or maybe they are conspiring against you, in that case.... Not thing yo can do.....But if it's RVS, they're not voting you because they think you're scum. They're voting at random. Why would you need to prove that you're on their side in that case? And why are you trying to paint yourself as a victim with that conspiracy talk?
TDSGreat! give me a quick summary of how you see the other players play-styles. Also, any reason for being particularly taciturn?TheDarkStar — do you have a handle on the play-styles of the other players?Yes.
OK, so ask me a trickier question.In your opinion, with your knowledge of the players present:
flabort:I think that's a good answer.UI: OK. What would your reaction to the player accusing you of being scum in that situation be?I'd defend myself against their argument while pushing my own case. Unless they're being actively scummy, the lurker takes jailing priority.
EBWOP:Yes, because I have yet to see anything really scummy yet.
Persus, Worldmaster: The day ends today, and you haven't used your votes yet. Are you OK with just sitting on the sidelines, letting RVS continue?
How about lurking, not participating in RVS by only asking two token questions, and having no desire to hunt scum? I can name one person doing that, Persus13.EBWOP:Yes, because I have yet to see anything really scummy yet.
Persus, Worldmaster: The day ends today, and you haven't used your votes yet. Are you OK with just sitting on the sidelines, letting RVS continue?
Extend, I'll post more after class.
PersusYeah, I tend to operate on the principle that scum are smart, or at least try to be smart, because that's usually what happens or is the best case scenario. As for forming a case today, it depends on how much info we get out of today.I'd have to determine it by contextual evidence. However, lacking that, I'd say a laughably weak case, because scum players would try to put a bit of effort into their case, instead of just voting someone for no reason.That's a fair amount of faith you have there in the prowess of the scum team. Do you see yourself forming a case by the end of today?
Persus13: I think I learned how to, at least adequately, portray myself as town when I'm scum. I learned a bit about conducting a scumhunt and I adopted an outlook of "playing to learn". Aside from that, just general purpose what-not-to-do and what-to-do things as well as how the mechanics work in general, for a BM at the very least.Do you think you have an idea on actually hunting scum instead of pretending to?
What do you think is important to do on the first day, if nothing else?
flabort: Trust? Myself. :P Really though, anyone could be scum so I'm going to try to avoid completely trusting one person. If you're asking who seems like town, then I'd say yourself.If I'm your top suspect, then why aren't you voting me? It's not like you're voting anyone else?
As far as suspects, I'm not sure. At the moment I'm thinking to see who the scum kill during the night and evaluate this day. If I had to say at this moment, I'd go with Persus. He's been lurking, as he admits, and he hasn't altogether contributed much to the discussion by asking questions. He seems content to sit on the sidelines.
UI, TDS: The day ends today, without extensions. Are you satisfied with lynching Varee today? Is lynching what is essentially a completely random pick for you alright?Are you (or were you) satisfied with a Varee lynch? If yes, why didn't you extend if you were concerned about the other lynch votes being random, if no, why didn't you unvote or extend?
EBWOP:I was asleep (or trying to) when the votecount was posted, but this morning I voted for an extension. As for voting someone, your vote on me today was the first non-RVS vote, so I don't see how me not using my vote makes me sit on the sidelines. How does me not using my vote early D1 make me not participating? How about worldmaster, who voted and then unvoted?
Persus, Worldmaster: The day ends today, and you haven't used your votes yet. Are you OK with just sitting on the sidelines, letting RVS continue?
PFWThis is really odd for you. First of, its D1 and your voting me for lurking. Generally that isn't a D1 vote thing, because it's freaking D1. The only people who currently have more then 5 posts are you and Varee. I have 2 (now 3), Deathsword has 1, UI has 2, NQT and TDS both have 3. You have 11, and Varee has nine, but both of you have a lot of short posts so your probably about equal in content to NQT or UI's posts. Lurking should not be a major part of your vote and if you were really hunting people based on lurking, you would have mentioned Deathsword too.How about lurking, not participating in RVS by only asking two token questions, and having no desire to hunt scum? I can name one person doing that, Persus13.EBWOP:Yes, because I have yet to see anything really scummy yet.
Persus, Worldmaster: The day ends today, and you haven't used your votes yet. Are you OK with just sitting on the sidelines, letting RVS continue?
Extend, I'll post more after class.
Scripten
Ask me one such question.
Nope. D1 is basically a crapshoot because nobody knows anything (except the scum but they aren't telling). The primary objective is to start gaining information, and worrying about everyone doing it in a specific way is just a distraction.OK, what's the most useful kind of information to draw out of people at this stage (assuming, you know, that scum don't typically openly spill their alignment on D1)?
NQT i got an interesting idea, what do you think of" not reading role pm so you dont act suspicious?"I think that's stupid for all the obvious reasons. I'm sure you can see why. Also, could you answer this please:
In the games you've played before do you think you should have been able to work out who the scum were in hindsight?
NQT: I expect this to be a fair bit more difficult than #49, as there are more experienced players here.Surely it'd be easier with so many experienced players: town outnumber scum after all. Or are you already worried you might be found out?
Do you think it is better to have many or few power roles?It's a different kind of game with more roles. Town information roles tend to make the game easier for town, too many roles ends up in a chaotic game where stuff just happens and no one knows why.
You asked me a yes/no question and I didn't have much time to answer before I had to do other stuff. As for the summary, I'll give that later when I have time.I eagerly await this blessed day.
In your opinion, with your knowledge of the players present:Me, maybe World as he's the least experienced, ditto, me again. If I can't include myself, then maybe Deathsword, he's pretty good (though he's a bit too easy to annoy: just try calling him 'death's word'...). Do you think Persus is the best fit for scum at this stage?
- Who is the greatest threat to town as scum?
[0]Who is the Least beneficial to town as town?- Who is the least beneficial to scum as scum?
[0]Who is the greatest threat to scum as town?
Notquitethere, Deathsword, Varee, Scripten: The day ends today. If you are not satisfied with lynching Varee, why aren't you trying to get us out of RVS? I don't see much discussion from any of you.Every time I post I talk to everyone and keep pushing on questions, can't move any quicker than that. Day 1 is always extended.
Yeah, I tend to operate on the principle that scum are smart, or at least try to be smart, because that's usually what happens or is the best case scenario. As for forming a case today, it depends on how much info we get out of today.Will you just not vote if you don't have a case then?
Do you believe that Persus13's crossvote and push on Flabort are essentially OMGUS?Good questions. Flabort (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5753529#msg5753529) appears to have fairly legitimate reasons to vote someone, but Persus points out (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5753761#msg5753761)that the lurking claim is ill-founded and he has some kind of defence for the low post count. I wouldn't have voted Flabort over his case, but it's not exactly scummy to vote a weak case and it isn't an OMGUS: an OMGUS in the proper sense of the word is a purely reactionary vote. Persus has some semblance of a justification. At this stage I see nothing that distinguishes this spat from the typical thing townies get into it. I'll see how it develops. Do you find either of them suspicious for this?
If so, do you find it to be scum-motivated? If not, do you find Flabort's vote on Persus13 to be suspicious?
UI, TDS: The day ends today, without extensions. Are you satisfied with lynching Varee today? Is lynching what is essentially a completely random pick for you alright?
TDSYou asked me a yes/no question and I didn't have much time to answer before I had to do other stuff. As for the summary, I'll give that later when I have time.I eagerly await this blessed day.
umm answering our question carefuly? i dont know.....Why would town need to be careful?
Also UI, I was ignoring the question because it just a joke, i dont think it is important for me to answer it right?Indeed. I asked you that question as a way of applying pressure, however little, because I couldn't be bothered to do RVS 'properly.' Your reactions to it and answers to flabort are making it stay.
Flabort:I saw the two other votes on Varee as random by the people who voted them. I had not voted randomly, as I was getting minorly annoyed at his complete lack of drive towards working to get us out of RVS; he could have answered the questions of those voting him to their Satisfaction (VAREE, the word I was looking for was SATISFACTORILY), he could have asked questions and pursued leads, he could have just asked for them to change their votes, he could have drawn a number out of his hat and started pursuing that person, he could have used reactionary tactics like TDS was using on him ("I'm voting you back, how does that make you feel?"), any number of tactics would have worked.UI, TDS: The day ends today, without extensions. Are you satisfied with lynching Varee today? Is lynching what is essentially a completely random pick for you alright?Are you (or were you) satisfied with a Varee lynch? If yes, why didn't you extend if you were concerned about the other lynch votes being random, if no, why didn't you unvote or extend?
Second non-RVS vote, as detailed above. My second vote on Varee was my first, as implied when I replied to an answer to somebody else's question.EBWOP:I was asleep (or trying to) when the votecount was posted, but this morning I voted for an extension. As for voting someone, your vote on me today was the first non-RVS vote, so I don't see how me not using my vote makes me sit on the sidelines. How does me not using my vote early D1 make me not participating? How about worldmaster, who voted and then unvoted?
Persus, Worldmaster: The day ends today, and you haven't used your votes yet. Are you OK with just sitting on the sidelines, letting RVS continue?
Odd for me? What is odd for me? My play style changes by the game, one day blindly sheeping and getting in arguments with Tiruin over semantics, the next wildly firing off gambits and aggroing every serial killer in the game. I keep learning, assimilating, and revising.PFWThis is really odd for you. First of, its D1 and your voting me for lurking. Generally that isn't a D1 vote thing, because it's freaking D1. The only people who currently have more then 5 posts are you and Varee. I have 2 (now 3), Deathsword has 1, UI has 2, NQT and TDS both have 3. You have 11, and Varee has nine, but both of you have a lot of short posts so your probably about equal in content to NQT or UI's posts. Lurking should not be a major part of your vote and if you were really hunting people based on lurking, you would have mentioned Deathsword too.How about lurking, not participating in RVS by only asking two token questions, and having no desire to hunt scum? I can name one person doing that, Persus13.EBWOP:Yes, because I have yet to see anything really scummy yet.
Persus, Worldmaster: The day ends today, and you haven't used your votes yet. Are you OK with just sitting on the sidelines, letting RVS continue?
Extend, I'll post more after class.
As for your accusation that I only asked two questions in RVS, that is a ridiculous statement to have in a case. First of, it's false, I asked UI question as well as Deathsword and Worldmaster.A joke question in response to a joke question. I count that as flavor text.
Secondly, saying this statement takes that one fact out of context. It completely ignores the fact that the game started late Monday night when I was asleep, and that Tuesday is an extremely busy day for me, which meant I couldn't participate in the first day of the game. This meant that plenty of people already had questions for me and so I didn't need to initiate a conversation.This stinks of lazy scum.
People only need to ask huge amounts of questions when D1 has just started because the conversation needs to get moving somehow.True. Accepted. Wolverine can heal himself. God is considered to be Good. The earth is round.
after that you only really need to ask questions to people you want to talk to and haven't.You only need to breath every wednesday. Martians are real. People are born with naturally blue, green, pink, and magenta hair.
Finally, asking a large number of RVS questions is not a measure of how town you are. If it was, Toaster wouldn't have been scum in your BYOR.It's a measure of how much effort you are willing to put into the game.
As for having no desire to hunt scum, how did you get there from me saying I hadn't seen anything scummy?"Are you OK with sitting on the sidelines?" "Yes"
So, why are you attacking me with your awful case with unusual aggressiveness early on, right after the day got extended? Why did you make a snide poke at me with a vote attached instead of waiting until after work and pulling up a better case then?I'm learning to be: Active. Aggressive. Attentive. The three As of winning Mafia. I am learning to use my vote better, by pressing my suspicions early, and by not reactively OMGUSing someone just because they have a weak case on me.
Flabort: I've only asked a few RVS questions and have been mostly reactionary. What drove you to vote for Persus13 instead of me?Let's see. I've kept seeing your face pop up, so you're active. You have asked questions, and they were not questions not even relating to THIS game. OK, one was relating to my meta, but at least you asked if it was something I was going to continue with in this game, so it's still related to THIS game.
In an elaborate setup-dependant gambit, which would only WORK if the player actually wound up scum, if they didn't read their role PM they could actually play as town until LYLO, and then, believing themselves to be town, lynch another town and win the game for scum.This (not reading one's PM) would be an incredible violation of the Play to Win rule, and I can't see many mods here responding kindly to it.
Varee: Why did you choose to ignore my question until Persus asked me about it?1st- I was doing that as a joke and I assume you did it as a joke also, I dont want to drag on the joke more than necessary so I just ignore the question.QuoteQuote from: Varee on 22,October 2014, 06:49:24 amBut if it's RVS, they're not voting you because they think you're scum. They're voting at random. Why would you need to prove that you're on their side in that case? And why are you trying to paint yourself as a victim with that conspiracy talk?
@TDs, my question to you would be "What can you do?" If people are voting you during RVS, there not really anyhing info you can use to prove that you are on their side, or maybe they are conspiring against you, in that case.... Not thing yo can do.....
Why would town need to be careful?I am guessing flabort puzzle as I got no clue what he is talking about then .....
Quote from: notquitethere on 23,October 2014, 12:20:41 amI dont remember all the game I played in before but for the last few of them the answer would be no ......
In the games you've played before do you think you should have been able to work out who the scum were in hindsight?
Good questions. Flabort (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5753529#msg5753529) appears to have fairly legitimate reasons to vote someone, but Persus points out (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5753761#msg5753761)that the lurking claim is ill-founded and he has some kind of defence for the low post count. I wouldn't have voted Flabort over his case, but it's not exactly scummy to vote a weak case and it isn't an OMGUS: an OMGUS in the proper sense of the word is a purely reactionary vote. Persus has some semblance of a justification. At this stage I see nothing that distinguishes this spat from the typical thing townies get into it. I'll see how it develops. Do you find either of them suspicious for this?
Question for you: Who do you think has a better chance of winning the game: Deathsword or NQT? I am aware that they could be on the same team, but taking that into account only evens the odds slightly.
PersusNo, I would likely use my vote for pressure or to vote someone I find scummy but don't have a full case on to break a tie, if necessary. What do you assume about the scum?Yeah, I tend to operate on the principle that scum are smart, or at least try to be smart, because that's usually what happens or is the best case scenario. As for forming a case today, it depends on how much info we get out of today.Will you just not vote if you don't have a case then?
Going on a trip tomorrow for a Tech Jam in Vermont. I'll be gone from 7am until 7pm est. Therefore, I will almost assuredly not be posting then. :)Sorry about the WoTs. Do you think you could post reads on everyone in the game at this stage?
Please let me know if I have any outstanding questions or whatnot aimed at me. These walls are massive and my head hurts tonight.
THIS BLESSED DAY HAS ARRIVED, ONE DAY LATER!Wonderful. And though you took the time to form impressions regarding the other players, you didn't find anything worth voting?
NQT: The most important thing is a preliminary read on everyone, as well as material to question them over, such as why they tied the vote or why they didn't vote x or why they attacked y for voting x. Basically, reads and leads.I can go along with that. Would you prefer people were also voting Varee, or are you happy having a non-lynching vote on someone at the end of the day?
NQT: Yes, at this stage, I am becoming increasingly convinced that Persus is the best fit for scum. Do you think that Worldmaster is the best fit for scum?I'm waiting on Worldmaster's response to me before I make any firm conclusions regarding his scumminess. Who do you think has received the least attention today?
What is, in your opinion, the strongest kind of scumtell on day 1?Ask me this again on Day 2. If I tell you now, scum may change their behaviour accordingly.
Looking back I kinda realise how bad of a job I did at scumhunting.......So what are you going to do differently in this game?
So, town v town makes a lot of sense right now.I see... so why are you still voting Persus? You're initial vote on him was just asking where he'd been.
No, I would likely use my vote for pressure or to vote someone I find scummy but don't have a full case on to break a tie, if necessary. What do you assume about the scum?I see, and is your vote on Flabort just pressure, or would you call it a proper case? Is Flabort the best fit for scum? I assume that the scum team will probably look to kill the most competent player tonight. If I'm doing my job right, I might not be alive tomorrow.
TDSTHIS BLESSED DAY HAS ARRIVED, ONE DAY LATER!Wonderful. And though you took the time to form impressions regarding the other players, you didn't find anything worth voting?
It's a list of playstyles, not reads. If you want reads, ask for reads.Sure sure, I didn't ask for reads. But you're somewhat side-stepping the issue here. Are you intending to try and lynch scum before the end of this day?
TDSIt's a list of playstyles, not reads. If you want reads, ask for reads.Sure sure, I didn't ask for reads. But you're somewhat side-stepping the issue here. Are you intending to try and lynch scum before the end of this day?
Going on a trip tomorrow for a Tech Jam in Vermont. I'll be gone from 7am until 7pm est. Therefore, I will almost assuredly not be posting then. :)Sorry about the WoTs. Do you think you could post reads on everyone in the game at this stage?
Please let me know if I have any outstanding questions or whatnot aimed at me. These walls are massive and my head hurts tonight.
FlabortSo you're still in RVS mode, but at least you're participating.NQT: Yes, at this stage, I am becoming increasingly convinced that Persus is the best fit for scum. Do you think that Worldmaster is the best fit for scum?I'm waiting on Worldmaster's response to me before I make any firm conclusions regarding his scumminess. Who do you think has received the least attention today?
Fair enough. I will hold you to that, and await your answer on day 2.What is, in your opinion, the strongest kind of scumtell on day 1?Ask me this again on Day 2. If I tell you now, scum may change their behaviour accordingly.
--Reads--Scripten, I appreciate your reads, and I appreciate that I warrent your attention.
Day 1 reads are usually crap.and
Day 1 reads are usually not too accurate. Sometimes a really good player can start suspecting the scumteam by the first lynch, but it's pretty rare.I don't mind that you're voting me, I just want to know how much you trust your own reads at this point.
Do you mind if I ask for reads from you, TheDarkStar? It sounds like you're starting to form opinions of who might be scummy, and you're definitely paying attention.TDSIt's a list of playstyles, not reads. If you want reads, ask for reads.Sure sure, I didn't ask for reads. But you're somewhat side-stepping the issue here. Are you intending to try and lynch scum before the end of this day?
Yes. There's still a lot of time left (till Monday), so I'll look over stuff. By the way, why aren't you questioning Worldmaster for his lack of voting?
--Reads--Scripten, I appreciate your reads, and I appreciate that I warrent your attention.
But wasn't it you who saidDay 1 reads are usually crap.andDay 1 reads are usually not too accurate. Sometimes a really good player can start suspecting the scumteam by the first lynch, but it's pretty rare.I don't mind that you're voting me, I just want to know how much you trust your own reads at this point.
Jack A T: Scripten is currently voting for Flabort as of 5 posts above your votecount.Correction made. Thanks.
PersusI would call more pressure than anything else. Flabort currently is the player is the scummiest, but that's mainly because his case is ridiculous, the only other that seems scummy to be is getting on Scripten for giving reads when I asked him for them. Does flabort fit scum? Yes, his behavior fits my profile of aggressive scum almost perfectly. His acting like a politician (dodging a few of my questions, rhetoric, overusage of metaphors, speech making himself out to be great at scumhunting and being a good town player) also seems more like a scum player then a town player.No, I would likely use my vote for pressure or to vote someone I find scummy but don't have a full case on to break a tie, if necessary. What do you assume about the scum?I see, and is your vote on Flabort just pressure, or would you call it a proper case? Is Flabort the best fit for scum? I assume that the scum team will probably look to kill the most competent player tonight. If I'm doing my job right, I might not be alive tomorrow.
It's a list of playstyles, not reads. If you want reads, ask for reads.I'm willing to ask you for reads?
why aren't you [NQT] questioning Worldmaster for his lack of voting?Why do you want NQT to do this instead of just asking him yourself (unless you already did that and I missed it)?
flabort - Wee bit scummy, but it's hard to tell considering his usual play.Why do you feel flabort is scummy?
Worldmaster27 - Good for a newbie. Nothing REALLY sticks out. Maybe slight scum for some of his answers. Mostly null.Why do you feel world is slightly scummy?
Deathsword - Quiet as usual. So far he lines up with the town play I remember. Like TheDarkStar in many ways. We'll have to see.All that from one post?
Deathsword: When should you reveal yourself as a jailor?Only if someone fakeclaimed jailor. Otherwise, never. There is no reason to claim jailor otherwise, as it gives you a huge PLEASE NIGHTKILL ME! sign.
Deathsword: What is your favorite part about Mafia?The tension just before a roleflip, especially as town, when you see whether or not you fucked up with the lynch.
DeathswordDo you foresee the game being won on the back of the cop/jailkeeper, or do you think traditional scum hunting will win the day?I am aware of the irony of this answer, but I think it'll end up with scumhunting carrying the day. There is only so much the power roles can do, especially if they are killed early.Deathsword While you did have an earlier start than Persus, he does have a small point in that he is starting to get ahead of you in post count, and if this continues, maybe content. Where are you? And more importantly, which is better: to ask a few good questions, or a LARGE number of bad questions?Good questions. Always. Bad questions are just that. Bad. A large number of them doesn't make them stink any less.I dont really understand the more experience players..... they seem to like to ask each other what they think and relying on that info to work on ..... that you NQT and Flabort, maybe you guys should trust each other a little bit less, or maybe i am paraniod.....Are you implying they are buddying? If so, could state that outright? Why are you afraid of saying that, instead relying on merely implying it?NQT: I dont think I should answer your question now for the same reason you didnt answer flabort, If you reveal your plan it is easier to avoid.First: seriously, quote the questions or text or whatever you are talking about.
Second: How the fuck does this:have anything to do with a game plan? Are you planning to imitate the scum of games past?In the games you've played before do you think you should have been able to work out who the scum were in hindsight?for now Deathsword need to talk a bit more I say... I keep confusing him with TDS ......How can you even confuse me with TDS? Furthermore, if you think NQT and Flarbot are buddying, why vote a lurker instead? Why not press that point while we are at it, Varee?
Now I am off to prepare myself for the horror that is tomorrow's presidential election with biometry (and the fact that the biometry system is shit).
I'm just saying it's somewhat hypocritical, scripten, to say that day 1 reads are nigh useless, and then be the first to post day 1 reads (the earlier ones were described as play styles, and not reads, so they don't count).
Among the other things I expect from other players, it's consistency.
Scripten:flabort - Wee bit scummy, but it's hard to tell considering his usual play.Why do you feel flabort is scummy?
Worldmaster27 - Good for a newbie. Nothing REALLY sticks out. Maybe slight scum for some of his answers. Mostly null.Why do you feel world is slightly scummy?
Deathsword - Quiet as usual. So far he lines up with the town play I remember. Like TheDarkStar in many ways. We'll have to see.All that from one post?
WorldmasterIt will be more difficult because, from my point of view, it is that much more likely that the scum will also be more experienced. Town only have a large advantage in numbers in the first couple of days, if scum is not lynched.NQT: I expect this to be a fair bit more difficult than #49, as there are more experienced players here.Surely it'd be easier with so many experienced players: town outnumber scum after all. Or are you already worried you might be found out?
Persus, Worldmaster: The day ends today, and you haven't used your votes yet. Are you OK with just sitting on the sidelines, letting RVS continue?I'll catch up on recent events and then decide, as well as post my reads.
The third question will have to wait a bit though....Because...?
@Deathsword, almost missed you post, the quote screw up. I dont mean that they are buddying, if they are it a little too dumb and way to obvious for an experience player. My answer is that if I say what i will be doing , it will be way harder to do so i will hold on that for now. I explicitly stated that quoting big post are a pain in the ass when you are doing it on a phone so..... You are just forcing world in my mouth and voting me of it for that reason so why dont you come up with a good reason why you did that?If you don't mean they are buddying, then why NQT and Flarbot should trust each other less? Aren't people trusting each other in a mafia game buddying? Or are trying to sow hostility between the pair? Either way is bad. As for your answer, how does saying if (not how, but if) you would be able to tell who was scum in hindsight has anything to do with how you will play now? You seem a bit too concerned with how you will play, which is what scum worry about.
I dont mean that they are buddying, if they are it a little too dumb and way to obvious for an experience player.What did you mean there? Are you saying they are not buddying and that it would be dumb and obvious for them to do it? Because let me tell you that buddying can and does work if used properly (which is hard, I'll grant that). Making another player trust you when you are scum is important, because it means they won't target you with powers or votes.
I'm just saying it's somewhat hypocritical, scripten, to say that day 1 reads are nigh useless, and then be the first to post day 1 reads (the earlier ones were described as play styles, and not reads, so they don't count).
Among the other things I expect from other players, it's consistency.
Varee, Scripten, Persus Oh how Ironic that my top three suspects at the moment were the ones who extended. I expect you guys to actually make use of this extension to it's full potential, so my vote will be on whichever one of you was the least recent one to post. Currently, that's... Persus. As soon as you post, of course, this means my vote will move to scripten or varee.
To kick of the conversation, what is your three's reaction to this decision?
Next, which of you three is most scummy? least scummy?
Next, which player who is NOT one of you three is most scummy? least scummy?
Deathsword You said you would post by now, "in a few hours" from your last post. Well, where is your post?
Do you mind if I ask for reads from you, TheDarkStar?
I'm gonna need a replacement. I just can't get enough time to properly play the game.Alright. I've contacted Cheeetar. If he confirms he's still willing to replace, I'll send him your role info.
Cheetar: Once you are done with reading the thread, could you say your reads on everyone?
Cheetar: Once you are done with reading the thread, could you say your reads on everyone?Sure thing.
Ok deathsword, how about stop worrying about my answer and answer those question yourself? You dont want to make other think you are intentionally avoiding flabort's question do you?
TheDarkStar: Did not seem to want anybody to think he'd like them lynched. Provided playstyles instead of reads - kind of odd? Now seems to be okay voting to lynch someone, but on someone with a fair bit of pressure on them already. Leaning very slightly scum.
Still- it's odd you took the time to analyse their playstyles but didn't come up with anything useful in terms of if they were acting suspiciously or not.
Varee: What is the aim of saying this- to deflect attention from yourself? Do you think Deathsword asking you questions is scummy behaviour?What i meant is Deathsword is not answering any question except pushin on me, I veiw this as he is avoiding answering question while stay realatively active with his post. If he got nothing to hide then he should answer more question and ask less.
Can you make your posts a bit clearer? I can't quite tell what you were trying to say in the last one.
Varee, that post made next to no sense to me? Can you please be a little more clear when posting? Sorry, it's just really hard to understand you at times. >.>I was rather busy during the weekend so i rush out the post. I will just list out the point then to keep it clean.
Deathsword: Who do you think the scum would want to go after first, a jailkeeper or cop?
I actually missed this question, and I've been going through the thread like crazy trying to find the question Varee is accusing me of "avoiding". So thanks for spotting that. Anyone knows anything else I missed, please bring that to my attention.Deathsword: Who do you think the scum would want to go after first, a jailkeeper or cop?
Worldmaster: Why did you ask this question of Deathsword? Why didn't you care when he ignored it? What is the purpose of the questions you've been asking so far?
Why should I ask less? How do you expect me to find scum otherwise? Should I just put on my wizard hat, say some words in dog latin and divine the identity of the scum? Furthermore, it is ironic you say that I should answer more if I have nothing to hide, yet you outright (and explicitly) refuse to answer one question. Funny that.QuoteVaree: What is the aim of saying this- to deflect attention from yourself? Do you think Deathsword asking you questions is scummy behaviour?What i meant is Deathsword is not answering any question except pushin on me, I veiw this as he is avoiding answering question while stay realatively active with his post. If he got nothing to hide then he should answer more question and ask less.
Except that was a yes/no question. All you had to say was "yes, I think I could point them out in hindsight due to how stuff unfolded" or "no, they played quite well there". That's it. You are refusing to answer based on pure stubbornness.
- I stated that I didnt answer the scum tell question because I feel that by answering it, it will make spoting them harder.
SureCheetar: Once you are done with reading the thread, could you say your reads on everyone?Could you also post your reads, Deathsword?
To try and spark conversation, and perhaps learn something from his reasoning for his answer. I didn't mention anything while he ignored it because I had completely forgotten about having asked it.Deathsword: Who do you think the scum would want to go after first, a jailkeeper or cop?
Worldmaster: Why did you ask this question of Deathsword? Why didn't you care when he ignored it? What is the purpose of the questions you've been asking so far?
What do you think of Scripten's stating that he thinks D1 reads are crap, and still posting reads of his own? This seems like one of flabort's main dislikes about him.
Flabort: Could you please provide an example of where Scripten might be trying to direct people at either you or Persus? I hadn't noticed any of that when I read back through, though I may have missed something.
What do you think of Scripten's stating that he thinks D1 reads are crap, and still posting reads of his own? This seems like one of flabort's main dislikes about him.
By the way, why aren't you questioning Worldmaster for his lack of voting?I was waiting for his reply to my outstanding questions before launching any fresh offensive.
So you're still in RVS mode, but at least you're participating.I wouldn't say I was still in 'RVS mode', I usually wait for people to respond to me before swapping my vote off them regardless of the phase of the game. That's the path of diligence.
The least attention has been given to either Deathsword, or UI.And so it's no surprise you have a neutral read on Deathsword and UI/Cheetah then.
As far as looking over stuff, NotQuiteThere, are you able to go over the thread again and let us know if anything suspicious comes to mind?Yep, now the day has been mod-extended, I'm going to go over the whole thread with a fine tooth-comb and then post my reads and observations. But first I'm going to get some sleep!
I dont really understand the more experience players..... they seem to like to ask each other what they think and relying on that info to work on ..... that you NQT and Flabort, maybe you guys should trust each other a little bit less, or maybe i am paraniod.....It's reasonable to be paranoid. I think it's helpful to be cordial and expect other players to act like competent town. When they fail in your expectations as helpful and rigorous scum hunters, then you can
NQT: I dont think I should answer your question now for the same reason you didnt answer flabort, If you reveal your plan it is easier to avoid.I see, so you're going to do something differently this game that is also a secret. OK. Sure, you could be telling the truth. I'll ask you on Day 3 then (or if I'm dead someone else can ask you). I hope you have a good answer by then.
I hope you will be alive tomorrow, I'll have a few questions for you that I don't want to ask till then.I look forward to it.
I am aware of the irony of this answer, but I think it'll end up with scumhunting carrying the day. There is only so much the power roles can do, especially if they are killed early.That's reasonable. Who do you think is scum hunting the most and the least so far?
It will be more difficult because, from my point of view, it is that much more likely that the scum will also be more experienced. Town only have a large advantage in numbers in the first couple of days, if scum is not lynched.I see. And while town have the majority, are you going to try to find the scum? Who do you think is the scummiest player so far? (i.e. why aren't you voting?)
I see... so why are you still voting Persus? Your initial vote on him was just asking where he'd been.
ImiknorrisNQT: The most important thing is a preliminary read on everyone, as well as material to question them over, such as why they tied the vote or why they didn't vote x or why they attacked y for voting x. Basically, reads and leads.I can go along with that. Would you prefer people were also voting Varee, or are you happy having a non-lynching vote on someone at the end of the day?
Sure[Note 1] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5753860#msg5753860). I'm pretty sure he's at least got his attention on me by now[Note 2] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5758118#msg5758118), and has made at least one long reply to Persus[Note 3] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5759920#msg5759920). There's also his first vote[Note 4] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5751023#msg5751023) on Persus while speaking to me.
Flabort: Could you please provide an example of where Scripten might be trying to direct people at either you or Persus? I hadn't noticed any of that when I read back through, though I may have missed something.
I mean he is one of the more experience playerAhahahahahah. No I am not. I have not won a game as town yet. :P
FlabortAlright. That all sounds mostly good. See you once you have had your sleep, then.So you're still in RVS mode, but at least you're participating.I wouldn't say I was still in 'RVS mode', I usually wait for people to respond to me before swapping my vote off them regardless of the phase of the game. That's the path of diligence.The least attention has been given to either Deathsword, or UI.And so it's no surprise you have a neutral read on Deathsword and UI/Cheetah then.As far as looking over stuff, NotQuiteThere, are you able to go over the thread again and let us know if anything suspicious comes to mind?Yep, now the day has been mod-extended, I'm going to go over the whole thread with a fine tooth-comb and then post my reads and observations. But first I'm going to get some sleep!
Cheetah
Thanks for replacing in. Though you've now unvoted Varee, would you be able to answer the emboldened part here:ImiknorrisNQT: The most important thing is a preliminary read on everyone, as well as material to question them over, such as why they tied the vote or why they didn't vote x or why they attacked y for voting x. Basically, reads and leads.I can go along with that. Would you prefer people were also voting Varee, or are you happy having a non-lynching vote on someone at the end of the day?
I'm very tired right now, so I've just got some quick follow up for everyone. Going to get some sleep and then go over the thread tomorrow (Tuesday) and then post reads and ask questions etc as usual. My apologies for the slight relaxation of standards.
TDSBy the way, why aren't you questioning Worldmaster for his lack of voting?I was waiting for his reply to my outstanding questions before launching any fresh offensive.
WorldmasterI hope to find scum, yes.It will be more difficult because, from my point of view, it is that much more likely that the scum will also be more experienced. Town only have a large advantage in numbers in the first couple of days, if scum is not lynched.I see. And while town have the majority, are you going to try to find the scum? Who do you think is the scummiest player so far? (i.e. why aren't you voting?)
Scripten
This:I see... so why are you still voting Persus? Your initial vote on him was just asking where he'd been.
Flabort: Why would you getting Scripten's attention be a bad thing for you? Surely you have nothing to be afraid of, if you're town?It's not that I'm afraid of attention. It's that Scripten's intentions for me may not be noble. I fully expect to be the lynch target by this point, but if not, I expect to be killed night 1 or 3.
In your Note 4, his vote is to pressure Persus into joining us as far as I can tell. This doesn't seem particularly indicative of him being a pre-game target. As far as you being a pre-game target, I can't speak for Scripten.Fair enough. That's just how I perceived it.
On Note 3, his post is certainly not the longest and, if getting attention was linked to length of post, you and persus would have garnered much more from your going back and forth than his one long response.Very true. It's still a longer reply to a single person than most, even if it's only like the 6-8th longest; since Persus/Me hold, like, the top 5 :P
Did you ever answer my question to you?You literally just quoted your question and my response to it, unless you had a different question in mind?
Persus, we are really asking eachother way too many questions. I found myself skimming your reply; this is bad for both of us, because I might wind up not answering all your questions, and... uh... hmm. Well, that's bad for me because I can't properly concentrate on the game.Considering it took me over an hour to write that post, I'm inclined to agree.
Who's idea was it to make extensions 48 hours instead of 24, anyways? At this point, perceptions are getting garbled, patience is wearing thin, and conversation is once again slowing down; we're sliding back and you're drawing RVS out by extending.When did extensions become 48 hours? Also, I'm confused by the whole perception and patience thing.
And since you mention it, why did you want reads from Scripten? Why not someone who puts more value into day 1 reads?He mentioned he would be unavailable, so I wanted him to contribute. I asked him for reads because I was interested in seeing how he thought of everyone else.
@Persus, if i have a day inspect, I would throw it at either NQT or flabort, i feel it much more useful in early state of the game to find some active player you can trust on instead of throwing it at random lurker and hope they are intentionally lurking.Do you feel you can trust any of the currently active players?
I don't know when it happened, but they are 48 hours:Who's idea was it to make extensions 48 hours instead of 24, anyways? At this point, perceptions are getting garbled, patience is wearing thin, and conversation is once again slowing down; we're sliding back and you're drawing RVS out by extending.When did extensions become 48 hours? Also, I'm confused by the whole perception and patience thing.
Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible.I feel like I've played more games now where extensions are 48 than 24, but (before bay12) the vast majority (read:all) games I had played had 24 hour extensions, that rarely got used anyways.
Fine. I guess that's justified, then. I still don't like it, but I won't count it against you or him.And since you mention it, why did you want reads from Scripten? Why not someone who puts more value into day 1 reads?He mentioned he would be unavailable, so I wanted him to contribute. I asked him for reads because I was interested in seeing how he thought of everyone else.
Scripten What do you think about being accused of parroting (even if the overall lean was town)?
Wouldn't lynching the person who we know the least about give the least information from a flip?I can see why you'd think that, but we'd actually eliminate more possible scum teams when they flip, as we've already pretty much eliminated quite a few possible Flabort scum teams in virtue of the lynch votes on him. More than that, he's been deliberately flying under the radar, he struggles to form suspicions, all firm scum signs.
If A Deathsword lynch doesn't carry, who would you rather go for?TheDarkStar.
NQT: Playing well, mentioning that he'll probably die in the night is WIFOMy. Town LeanYeah, people always tell me that. But because it's the scum I'm WIFOMing here, I don't see the problem.
Scripten, you have exactly one scum pick. There are two scum in the game. Hazard a guess as to who the other might be.
I don't usually do associative reads before a flip. I find it interesting that you're taking peoples' reads at such face value, though. Why do you expect scum to be forthright in their reads and basically tell us who their buddy is?All my reads and speculations are very provisional. I'm mostly basing the buddy likelihood on actual lynching cases players have pushed. Mild distancing wouldn't be completely out of the question, but scum most likely have given each other null reads (if they've given reads at all). If Flabort doesn't flip town, then who would you suspect?
If Flabort doesn't flip town, then who would you suspect?
Flabort, would you claim if you were about to be mislynched and you had a power role?Basically, "Do I have a power role?", since it's looking like a lynch on me, and saying "yes" but not indicating that I do means I don't, and saying "no" means I'm either ornery (I'm usually jovial, so not that) or I'm scum, and the third option is claiming right now that I do.
I can't remember who asked for reads, but here's mine:
TDS: Pretty active, few problems with play, possibly too defensive, but that might just be the pot calling the kettle black. neutral lean
Scripten Newish, but seems to be doing okay. Continuing to vote me after I had posted was a little odd, and is parroting parts of my case on flabort, but other wise leaning town.
Cheeetar Not much to go on, UI was not very active and Cheeetar's only been here for a day or so. Null
Flabort: Behaving like a Mafia politician, and using lots of strange metaphors and talking about his skill. His current attack on Scripten I don't really understand his logic. Scum lean
NQT: Playing well, mentioning that he'll probably die in the night is WIFOMy. Town Lean
Varee: Flailing as usual, but making a bit more of an effort. Jury is still out on this one. Null
Persus13: College student who needs to be more committed to Bay12.
Worldmaster27: Playing pretty well for being the newest player in the game. I've helped him to victory as scum before, so I know his scum game but not his town game. Town lean?
Deathsword: Needs to post more, NQT's comments of him do make some sense. Slight scum lean?
Alright. Next question:Scripten What do you think about being accused of parroting (even if the overall lean was town)?
Eh, my case was built around an interaction between you and another player for the most part. It's not that big a deal; just means I came to the same conclusion as someone else independently. It's not like the case was that hard to see.
If I moved my vote, it would likely CAUSE a tie. In the interest of not being a dick and causing a tie, I won't change my vote until someone else does.
With Cheetah's change of heart, who's going to move their vote to avoid a tie?
Interesting.If Flabort doesn't flip town, then who would you suspect?
That's what I already said. If he were to flip town today, I'd probably go for Worldmaster27, since he feels a little detached from the events unfolding.
With Cheetah's change of heart, who's going to move their vote to avoid a tie?
WorldMaster who would you most likely vote on Day 2 if Flabort flips town. What if he flips scum?Based on how it is now? For flipping town, I'd probably vote Varee, who I find second most scummy, but I'd rather scumhunt before voting. For flipping scum, I would likely shift my focus to Varee or Deathsword who seem to be the most impartial to flabort.
Cheetah I keep forgetting about UI/You. Question time for you: What do you think about the most likely/least likely scum partners listed in NQT's reads?
Ah. NOW I see what Varee was saying with that "not quite buddying stuff".
Let me posit my own scumteam in the event of Flabort flipping scum: NQT/Flabort.
Varee, Scripten, Persus Oh how Ironic that my top three suspects at the moment were the ones who extended. I expect you guys to actually make use of this extension to it's full potential, so my vote will be on whichever one of you was the least recent one to post. Currently, that's... Persus. As soon as you post, of course, this means my vote will move to scripten or varee.
Mathematically- would it be a good idea for the jailer to claim jailer and who they blocked, as it was almost certainly scum?No, because the jailkeeper protects the person they blocked as well. So either they blocked scum, or scum attacked the person they blocked.
Persus13, your vote for extension was at the poking of Flabort for not having voted, and your only vote after that was a retaliatory vote on him. It seems that initially you only voted for him because of his case on you (which seemed legitimate in parts, esp. regarding your "I see nobody scummy so I'm not going to vote for people" passivity thing.)
PFWWhich attacks me for lurking because of RL reasons, which is something I get annoyed at because its something you shouldn't do, as well as for "asking two RVS questions" which is a ridiculous thing to attack someone for, and having no desire to hunt scum, which is something I can't really show through 1 post. My vote stayed because he started dodging questions, using weird metaphors to show his point, and touting himself as the greatest townie ever. I don't see that case as legitimate, and I'm done using my vote in RVS, because it cheapens the vote.How about lurking, not participating in RVS by only asking two token questions, and having no desire to hunt scum? I can name one person doing that, Persus13.EBWOP:Yes, because I have yet to see anything really scummy yet.
Persus, Worldmaster: The day ends today, and you haven't used your votes yet. Are you OK with just sitting on the sidelines, letting RVS continue?
Extend, I'll post more after class.
Everyone: Please let me know if there are questions that I missed, and that you want answered. It didn't seem like there were many, but I likely missed some.Here's one:
Mathematically- would it be a good idea for the jailer to claim jailer and who they blocked, as it was almost certainly scum?No, because the jailkeeper protects the person they blocked as well. So either they blocked scum, or scum attacked the person they blocked.
Persus13, your vote for extension was at the poking of Flabort for not having voted, and your only vote after that was a retaliatory vote on him. It seems that initially you only voted for him because of his case on you (which seemed legitimate in parts, esp. regarding your "I see nobody scummy so I'm not going to vote for people" passivity thing.)I don't really understand what you're saying about the extension. I extended because I saw the day was going to end with barely any discussion.
As for my vote, I voted for flabort because of this post:How about lurking, not participating in RVS by only asking two token questions, and having no desire to hunt scum? I can name one person doing that, Persus13.Which attacks me for lurking because of RL reasons, which is something I get annoyed at because its something you shouldn't do, as well as for "asking two RVS questions" which is a ridiculous thing to attack someone for, and having no desire to hunt scum, which is something I can't really show through 1 post. My vote stayed because he started dodging questions, using weird metaphors to show his point, and touting himself as the greatest townie ever. I don't see that case as legitimate, and I'm done using my vote in RVS, because it cheapens the vote.
Scripten: Now that your number 1 lynch target flipped town, what are you going to do? Did you have any other suspects?
Scripten, why did you ask NQT for his opinion on Persus13's vote possibly being an OMGUS (why didn't you comment on it yourself?)
By 'your vote for extension was at the poking of Flabort' I mean that you voted for extension (had a problem with the day ending so quickly) only after Flabort had pointed it out specifically to you.Yes, but not because Flabort pointed it out. I did more because Jack A T had just posted a vote count and noted that the day had ended that day.
The problem with 'RL reasons' as an excuse for lurking is that there's no way to prove or disprove it. It is not a ridiculous thing to attack someone for. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but there's nothing scummy about being skeptical of it.If that hadn't been his one argument that he was basing everything else on besides ridiculing my questions/answers, I wouldn't have found it scummy. I agree that it isn't too scummy, but it is a bit of an asshole move.
Having no desire to hunt scum was, I assume, a reference to your earlier posts: You were acting scummy earlier, he didn't expect you to immediately hunt all the scum in one post, he was merely pointing out that your lack of scumhunting earlier was scummy in his eyes. No?Yes, I still don't see what was wrong with my first post is the problem.
Also: Do you believe Random Vote Stage has any purpose whatsoever? Would you prefer to play a Mafia game where people didn't engage in it?The question part, yes, because that gets the conversation going. The voting part did to try and pressure people and get them to slip up, but everyone is so used to it that there's no point to it anymore, except causing new players to panic and act scummy, and new players inevitably get a lot of attention anyway. And when players do start voting seriously, sometimes players confuse it for an RVS vote and blow it off, cheapening the vote. As for your second question, that is a set-up question where your response to my inevitable yes is a "so why don't you vote" type question.
All things considered, Flabort's play struck me as eminently scummy. His case on Persus13 was poor, sure, but there was also the fact that his wording felt dodgy and he never really felt like he was operating genuinely with the rest of the town. Therefore, I was expecting him to flip scum. That said, his town flip DOES illuminate a few things for me. Maybe you guys are also seeing this.I didn't ask for a recapitulation of your case on flabort. I asked for what your plan was moving forward. Besides voting NQT, what else do you think you are going to do.
Flabort shows up as a likely scumbuddy on one(!) other player. Deathsword. Interesting. So that scum read NQT has on Deathsword seems to only support scum-Flabort.No, Deathsword could have been scumbuddies with almost everyone except NQT and Varee (possibly Cheeetar too). Say q can only be used with a u after it, but that doesn't mean u can be used elsewhere.
Scripten: So your case on NQT is that he voted Deathsword instead of flabort and tried to convince everyone that flabort and Deathsword were buddies so that when flabort flipped town Deathsword would be thought of as town?
Why does NQT seeing flabort as town mean he's scum instead of just smart town? Does the fact that NQT looks more at reads, votes, posts and activity instead of the traditional scumtells change your opinion at all? Would town NQT behave differently from the way NQT is behaving now?
I didn't ask for a recapitulation of your case on flabort. I asked for what your plan was moving forward. Besides voting NQT, what else do you think you are going to do.
Flabort shows up as a likely scumbuddy on one(!) other player. Deathsword. Interesting. So that scum read NQT has on Deathsword seems to only support scum-Flabort.No, Deathsword could have been scumbuddies with almost everyone except NQT and Varee (possibly Cheeetar too). Say q can only be used with a u after it, but that doesn't mean u can be used elsewhere.
Flabort was found pretty much universally scummy, NQT was just restating it. And you could be scum with anyone. I'm not appealing to authority, I'm just saying that NQT doesn't really go after traditional scumtells and prefers to look at data. NQT compiling tables of reads and doing stuff like saying everyone's most likely scumbuddy is normal for him. As is his defense of flabort based on post count.Why does NQT seeing flabort as town mean he's scum instead of just smart town? Does the fact that NQT looks more at reads, votes, posts and activity instead of the traditional scumtells change your opinion at all? Would town NQT behave differently from the way NQT is behaving now?
This feels like an appeal to authority, where NQT's skill as a player overrides any potentially suspicious actions he takes. I've had very limited interactions with NQT, so I'm working entirely on what I've seen in this thread. Have you noticed how inconsistent his associatives were with his reads? His strongest town reads have the broadest associative reads, except for Flabort. Both myself and Cheetar could be scum with anyone, but Flabort is specifically only likely to be scum with Deathsword.
By compiling a case on NQT and asking NQT a question? Ill rephrase, what is your plan for today besides going after NQT? Who do you suspect that is NOT NQT or Deathsword. What are you panning on doing to develop reads of them.I didn't ask for a recapitulation of your case on flabort. I asked for what your plan was moving forward. Besides voting NQT, what else do you think you are going to do.
Good thing you read the other 80% of my post, then, because I explained exactly where I stand with my scumreads and began to move forward to work those reads.
Flabort was found pretty much universally scummy, NQT was just restating it. And you could be scum with anyone. I'm not appealing to authority, I'm just saying that NQT doesn't really go after traditional scumtells and prefers to look at data. NQT compiling tables of reads and doing stuff like saying everyone's most likely scumbuddy is normal for him. As is his defense of flabort based on post count.
By compiling a case on NQT and asking NQT a question? Ill rephrase, what is your plan for today besides going after NQT? Who do you suspect that is NOT NQT or Deathsword. What are you panning on doing to develop reads of them.
That's me not understanding why you think it is inconsistent. If everyone thought one person was scummy, does that make them town or scum in your opinion?Flabort was found pretty much universally scummy, NQT was just restating it. And you could be scum with anyone. I'm not appealing to authority, I'm just saying that NQT doesn't really go after traditional scumtells and prefers to look at data. NQT compiling tables of reads and doing stuff like saying everyone's most likely scumbuddy is normal for him. As is his defense of flabort based on post count.
What does this have to do with what I said? I'm not calling him out for making reads lists or compiling data. I'm noting how the data/cases he's presented do not agree with themselves and presenting reasoning for why scum-NQT would act in this way.
I'm not pushing you away from him, I'm trying to understand your case and trying to get you to make it better. I also doubt that your suspicion against NQT is the only one you have as a result of yesterday and so want to push you to ask more questions and spread a wider net. You should go after people outside of your scumreads because those scumreads can constrain you. You need to be aware that you can be wrong. What will you do if an NQT lynch reveals he's town? scum?By compiling a case on NQT and asking NQT a question? Ill rephrase, what is your plan for today besides going after NQT? Who do you suspect that is NOT NQT or Deathsword. What are you panning on doing to develop reads of them.
I don't see why I should have to go after people outside of my scumreads, especially when they have not appeared in the thread since Day 2 started. Why are you trying to push me away from pursuing a case against NQT?
When more things happen today, I will make note of them and, if they are alignment-indicative, I will adapt my reads to fit the data.
That's me not understanding why you think it is inconsistent. If everyone thought one person was scummy, does that make them town or scum in your opinion?
I'm not pushing you away from him, I'm trying to understand your case and trying to get you to make it better. I also doubt that your suspicion against NQT is the only one you have as a result of yesterday and so want to push you to ask more questions and spread a wider net. You should go after people outside of your scumreads because those scumreads can constrain you. You need to be aware that you can be wrong. What will you do if an NQT lynch reveals he's town? scum?
Question for you, Persus13. Was your vote on me entirely for pressure? If so, did you expect that my answers would be insufficient without pressure? If not, what about my explanation made your read on me shift?No, NQT is being read by a lot of people as town, so scum might be interested in changing that around. I felt your case was a bit on the weak side. I unvoted because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to push you away from voting NQT, just prodding your case, and because you seemed pretty sincere with your case. In addition, I wanted to see NQT's response to your attack on him, and I really want to hear from TheDarkStar, because I want to see him scumhunt more.
No, NQT is being read by a lot of people as town, so scum might be interested in changing that around. I felt your case was a bit on the weak side. I unvoted because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to push you away from voting NQT, just prodding your case, and because you seemed pretty sincere with your case. In addition, I wanted to see NQT's response to your attack on him, and I really want to hear from TheDarkStar, because I want to see him scumhunt more.
If [Flabort] were to flip town today, I'd probably go for Worldmaster27, since he feels a little detached from the events unfolding.Do you still think World master is detached?
Notably, let's take a look at NGT's table of reads:Yes, I was pretty sure that Flabort was going to flip town for all the good reasons I mentioned. I have the same info all the other town players have, just a better understanding of how town players actually play.Spoiler: "Reads List" (click to show/hide)
So Flabort is almost exclusively scumread. (Persus13 isn't listed as having a scum read on him, but I think it's pretty obvious that he did.) We can all agree on that. But look at NQT's read on Flabort. That's some pretty solid green there, isn't it? Almost as if he knew Flabort was going to flip town.
Also, check this out:My argument was that if Flabort were scum, only one player (Deathsword) could realistically be his partner given how everyone else had acted towards him. I've got a list of every possible scum-team combo and I've been eliminating the least likely combos based on people's behaviour. As I tried to made clear in my reads, Deathsword could have been a scum partner with quite a few players because most people gave him a null read and weren't voting him.Spoiler: "NQT's Associative Reads" (click to show/hide)
Flabort shows up as a likely scumbuddy on one(!) other player. Deathsword. Interesting. So that scum read NQT has on Deathsword seems to only support scum-Flabort.
Pretty clever way to clear another player, to have their only viable scumbuddy flip town, no? And NQT had his vote on Deathsword come the end of the day. They couldn't possibly be a scumteam if he was voting him so close to deadline, right? Smells majorly scummy.But I don't think Deathsword is cleared in the slightest. I voted Deathsword because he was the least engaged player who could have formed the most possible teams on D1. Now I have more info, you and TheDarkStar are looking like better lynch candidates (again, I want to look over my notes before I start forming fresh cases).
NQT: So, let's do some hypothetical legwork.I think scum most likely targeted me last night, but if I was in fact scum then I'd have killed Cheetah. If I tell you who I'd have jailed/investigated and I picked scum names, then the scum would know which of those roles I am not, and that is too much information to give to them. Do you disagree?
If you were scum, who would you have targeted last night?
If you were the cop, who would you have investigated last night?
If you were the jailer, who would you have jailed last night?
No need for the why, but feel free to include it if you want.
I didn't tie the votes, honest.Sorry, it was the early hours of the morning and in my tired state I miscounted.
I find it odd that NQT doesn't find it odd or even notable that I find Flabort scummy but I'm not voting for him when he's close to being lynched.
Let me posit my own scumteam in the event of Flabort flipping scum: NQT/Flabort.Well you were right about us being on the same team...
Mathematically- would it be a good idea for the jailer to claim jailer and who they blocked, as it was almost certainly scum?I think the correct play is to keep quiet unless you're about to be lynched, and work towards pressing a case on your suspect. Worst case they claim, we lynch the N1 night kill target and then scum kill the jailor N2.
Based on how it is now? For flipping town, I'd probably vote Varee, who I find second most scummy, but I'd rather scumhunt before voting. For flipping scum, I would likely shift my focus to Varee or Deathsword who seem to be the most impartial to flabort.Reasonable response. Do you see anything scummy in today's posts?
NQT: I guess you were vindicated about flabort. Do you still use vote stats at all? Are you going to continue to go after Deathsword or has the break and the flip given you a better target?I do still use vote stats and I'm disappointed at least two town players couldn't see how terrible a lynch candidate Flabort was. I'm working on my phone here, when I get back to a real computer I'll reassess the evidence and recalibrate my suspicions. Deathsword would still make a good target, but before my final decision on Monday, I want to see a lot more cases from everyone.
NQT: Is it possible to see your table of reads in text form? Otherwise I can't understand part of Scripten's case on you.As soon as I get to a real computer, sure. I just colour coded everyone's reads as I've done in previous games.
TheDarkStar: What is the least likely scum team currently? Most likely? When was the last time you did some scumhunting?
ScriptenIf [Flabort] were to flip town today, I'd probably go for Worldmaster27, since he feels a little detached from the events unfolding.Do you still think World master is detached?
Yes, I was pretty sure that Flabort was going to flip town for all the good reasons I mentioned. I have the same info all the other town players have, just a better understanding of how town players actually play.
But I don't think Deathsword is cleared in the slightest. I voted Deathsword because he was the least engaged player who could have formed the most possible teams on D1. Now I have more info, you and TheDarkStar are looking like better lynch candidates (again, I want to look over my notes before I start forming fresh cases).
Now I've explained where I was coming from, do you still think you have a case?
I think scum most likely targeted me last night, but if I was in fact scum then I'd have killed Cheetah. If I tell you who I'd have jailed/investigated and I picked scum names, then the scum would know which of those roles I am not, and that is too much information to give to them. Do you disagree?
Nah, it's WIFOM. If you were a cop, they wouldn't know if you had caught them or not last night. Same with jailer, since either the target or the killing scum was jailed last night. (I don't believe a jailed player is informed if they are jailed, only if their action has failed if they are scum. Mod, can you confirm this?) You also could just as easily have lied about it and nobody would be the wiser.Scripten: Jailed players are not informed of being jailed, yes.
Also: Do you believe Random Vote Stage has any purpose whatsoever? Would you prefer to play a Mafia game where people didn't engage in it?The question part, yes, because that gets the conversation going. The voting part did to try and pressure people and get them to slip up, but everyone is so used to it that there's no point to it anymore, except causing new players to panic and act scummy, and new players inevitably get a lot of attention anyway. And when players do start voting seriously, sometimes players confuse it for an RVS vote and blow it off, cheapening the vote. As for your second question, that is a set-up question where your response to my inevitable yes is a "so why don't you vote" type question.
Fair enough. I'd like to see more interaction between the two of them before I lay down any suspicions. My gut is siding with Persus13, but I realize that the reason I feel that way is due to Flabort tunneling Persus13 more. I've learned over time that tunneling is usually not a scum tell, though people like to think it is. People pushing others to tunnel are often actual scum.
So, town v town makes a lot of sense right now.
What was it that specifically made you feel confident about leaving your vote on Flabort? You seem fairly unsure here.Sorry about the WoTs. Do you think you could post reads on everyone in the game at this stage?Probably, though there's plenty of nulls at this point, since we've only JUST gotten out of RVS at the end of the day. Since I'm going to be gone, I'm going to leave my vote here on Flabort.
flabort - Wee bit scummy, but it's hard to tell considering his usual play.
Scripten: I don't buy your case on NQT. NQT did push for the no-Flabort lynch quite readily (in fact, managing to sway me from it), and I do not believe for a moment that he did so to appear towny after Flabort's lynch. There's been no element of 'I told you so' from him at all.
Re: Deathsword/scripten scumteam- that's just silly. It was a 3-4 vote situation, and there was plenty of time for you or anybody else to change from voting for Flabort to voting for Deathsword.
What was it that specifically made you feel confident about leaving your vote on Flabort? You seem fairly unsure here.
Scripten: I don't buy your case on NQT. NQT did push for the no-Flabort lynch quite readily (in fact, managing to sway me from it), and I do not believe for a moment that he did so to appear towny after Flabort's lynch. There's been no element of 'I told you so' from him at all.
Re: Deathsword/scripten scumteam- that's just silly. It was a 3-4 vote situation, and there was plenty of time for you or anybody else to change from voting for Flabort to voting for Deathsword.
Can you show me where he pushed people to vote Deathsword? I count a single post that seemed to flip you over, but even you were suspicious (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5768058#msg5768058) of how NQT was acting with the Flabort/Deathsword vote tie. Actually, whatever happened to that? You didn't get any answer, dropped it, and now everything is apparently hunky dory.
With Cheetah's change of heart, who's going to move their vote to avoid a tie?
It's certainly true that I didn't push for an answer on it- in part, because Flabort flipped as town and my suspicion of NQT was allayed, and also in part due to the fact that there were other people who I see as much more suspicious.I find it odd that NQT doesn't find it odd or even notable that I find Flabort scummy but I'm not voting for him when he's close to being lynched.
Your reason here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5767985#msg5767985) was a good reason to switch votes. I was reasonable sure Flabort was town, so I didn't find someone moving away from a town lynch to be suspicious. It'd have been more suspicious if you'd have done it when there was zero chance of an alternative being lynched, but someone else could definitely have swapped votes as well in those last few hours.
What was it that specifically made you feel confident about leaving your vote on Flabort? You seem fairly unsure here.
That was fairly early in the day. I reassessed the play before I took a short leave of absence and, when I returned, I found myself happy with where my vote was.
Specifically, it was here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5757397#msg5757397) where my scum read got serious. That whole "you don't put much stock in day one reads but you totally make them when you're asked to so you're hypocrite scum" just felt like reaching. He tried to make me question my reads (which felt disingenuous) and made a big deal out of extending.
See here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5764927#msg5764927).
Scripten was awfully "hands off" during my/persus's conflict, but besides that... well, I got no reason to suspect him other than gut feeling, honestly. I do happen to be the most suspicious member of Clifton's crew, right? Well, basically, I feel like he's not got much going for him as town; he hasn't done anything overtly scummy, even taking into account that reads thing, but I feel like he was railroading NQT into Persus, and possibly me too. But then again, there was defending Persus by basically asking to take my vote, so...? I'm not really sure, but there definitely seems to be some connection between him and Persus in some way.
Scripten Doesn't put much value into Day 1 reads, yet forms them anyways. I guess this isn't bad. Earlier points above, as well. Directing people at either me or Persus for whatever reason. Probably scum.
Mathematically- would it be a good idea for the jailer to claim jailer and who they blocked, as it was almost certainly scum?make much sense. I understand that the jailer might have hit the scum but the odd is not in there favor, It is about as likely for a jailer to hit the scum target as much as hitting the scum killer them self. Are you trying to get the jailer to claim? Why should a jailer claim right now?
Cheetar - I dont think your postQuoteMathematically- would it be a good idea for the jailer to claim jailer and who they blocked, as it was almost certainly scum?make much sense. I understand that the jailer might have hit the scum but the odd is not in there favor, It is about as likely for a jailer to hit the scum target as much as hitting the scum killer them self. Are you trying to get the jailer to claim? Why should a jailer claim right now?
Where he pushed people:With Cheetah's change of heart, who's going to move their vote to avoid a tie?
There wasn't a tie, but NQT didn't know that and he was urging people to change from Flabort to Deathsword (if he was merely trying to avoid a tie, he could have changed his vote from Deathsword to Flabort and be seen as towny for avoiding a day 1 tie vote.)
It's certainly true that I didn't push for an answer on it- in part, because Flabort flipped as town and my suspicion of NQT was allayed, and also in part due to the fact that there were other people who I see as much more suspicious.
Scripten was awfully "hands off" during my/persus's conflict, but besides that... well, I got no reason to suspect him other than gut feeling, honestly. I do happen to be the most suspicious member of Clifton's crew, right? Well, basically, I feel like he's not got much going for him as town; he hasn't done anything overtly scummy, even taking into account that reads thing, but I feel like he was railroading NQT into Persus, and possibly me too. But then again, there was defending Persus by basically asking to take my vote, so...? I'm not really sure, but there definitely seems to be some connection between him and Persus in some way.
Scripten Doesn't put much value into Day 1 reads, yet forms them anyways. I guess this isn't bad. Earlier points above, as well. Directing people at either me or Persus for whatever reason. Probably scum.
Emphasis is mine. I don't think he was scumreading you because of the day one reads thing, and attempting to represent his argument as such is improper. He was scumreading you for different reasons to that which you have portrayed, and that you were comfortable lynching him because he saw you as scummy for something different to that which you stated is suspicious.
Scripten- Your sudden brust at NQT strike me a little odd, Why him? He is mostly town to the other people and there easier target to go after. DS for one .....
Btw, there are only two mafia members in this game. It seems like you're playing as if there are three?
I disagree that the following read had enough good reasons to mark someone as a solid town readI've done the research (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=132415.0) and read through every game that happened last year and two things were abundantly clear: scum pursue less cases than town, and scum almost never have the most posts in a game (i.e. they did in only one game in 2013). Flabort was tying for the most amount of cases pushed and he had the most posts in the game. Also, because of player's behaviour towards him and given there was no need for scum to bus on D1, Flabort was the least likely person to be someone's scumbuddy. Out of all the players, he was the worst person to lynch and if you don't see that then you're got a poor understanding of how town players actually play. Flabort was a classic Day One patsy.
, but there's problems with that even if I give you the benefit of the doubt. I find it problematic that, with such a strong town read, you did not try harder to push an alternative lynch. You obviously have the ability to sway opinions in this game. Why not use it to push for a lynch on a scum read of yours instead of a relatively strong town read?Can we look a little bit at the time line here?
This is more what I was going for. I wouldn't expect you to push a scumbuddy as a town read. That'd be silly. You just said that Deathsword wasn't cleared in the same post, but now you have two better candidates for a lynch. One of which was a town read before the flip. It's convenient is what I'm saying.I'm sorry but I still don't see how any of this amounts to a case. My reads change as I reassess evidence. How are these speculations of yours any different from WIFOM?
DarkStar I find it interesting that you call me out as scummy for following up on my RVS questions when all you did is ask a bunch of RVS questions and not respond to any of the replies. Why did you ask so many obviously questions that you obviously didn't care about?
NQT- I want to know why did you say that you are likely a scum target last night? Are you implying something?I'm implying that I'm genuinely interested in rooting out scum and that's a good reason for scum to kill me.
Scripten
Can we look a little bit at the time line here?
-snip-
So you can see that I only formed my Flabort read after my Deathsword vote, mere hours before the lynch, when I was very tired and already thought Flabort was pretty much doomed. I should have pushed stronger on the people voting Flabort. That I didn't doesn't make me scum.
-snip-
I'm sorry but I still don't see how any of this amounts to a case. My reads change as I reassess evidence. How are these speculations of yours any different from WIFOM?
Given that your only scum pick yesterday was mislynched, who else do you think could be scum today?
Also, why did you only prod Worldmaster for not posting, when Deathsword hasn't either?
Early on you said I was your top suspect in an answer to another question. Why didn't you vote me?Because I wasn't sure that you were scum and I wanted to watch some more before deciding who to vote.
Do you see anything scummy in today's posts?Definitely. It seems that in Varee's posthe is implying that Scripten is a PR. I think that he may be trying to get Scripten to role claim, which is more likely, or perhaps trying to make his scumbuddy seem like a PR so we don't lynch him, which is much less likely and probably harder to pull off IMO. His post was also confusing again, but I'm pretty sure Varee's scum at the moment.
You have not yet posted all day. Are you attempting to lurk all game to a scum win? I'd like to see some commentary, retrospectives, and scumhunting from you.Sorry again, and I'll read through the day in depth and post what I find.
Well, I guess we have a jailkeeper.Not necessarily. A lot of stuff could've happened. This is WIFOM, but I'll list a few:
Deathsword: Out of all those who lynched flabort, who do you think would most likely be scum?Going back through D1 still, but your interactions with flarbot (that small conflict near the start) could be something. That said, I won't commit until I'm reasonably sure, don't want to rush things.
Deathsword, can you give me two scum picks now we've had a flip and about 24 hours talking without your input?Persus and Varee, for now. I may go back on the Persus part, but Varee's actions are making me quite sure he is not uncooperative town, as I suggested he might be before. But a full case must wait.
Scripten What do you think about being accused of parroting (even if the overall lean was town)?
Eh, my case was built around an interaction between you and another player for the most part.
Scripten Doesn't put much value into Day 1 reads, yet forms them anyways. I guess this isn't bad. Earlier points above, as well. Directing people at either me or Persus for whatever reason. Probably scum.
No, I'm saying there's only so many things he could've done and what he did was the most likely for somebody trying to get a scumread lynched. If you'd like, I can make a nice little list of things he could've done with labels and stuff?
1. There was a thing that made me suspicious of him, but other things made me see him as towny, and the towniness outweighed the suspicion.
2. And yeah, you've already abandoned that NQT should've pushed harder for a Deathsword lynch and gotten that 1 last vote in the 2 hours he had.
Wait a minute... what case? Where have you responded to his accusations about your interactions with NQT & Persus? I've seen you asserting in Day 1 that Flabort is suspicious and that you have a case on him, but the only meaty things you've said about him are in response to the Day 1 reads thing- you know, which he said wasn't a big deal?
No, I'm saying there's only so many things he could've done and what he did was the most likely for somebody trying to get a scumread lynched. If you'd like, I can make a nice little list of things he could've done with labels and stuff?
NQT admitted that he could have done more, so you can quit being condescending, thanks.
1. There was a thing that made me suspicious of him, but other things made me see him as towny, and the towniness outweighed the suspicion.
2. And yeah, you've already abandoned that NQT should've pushed harder for a Deathsword lynch and gotten that 1 last vote in the 2 hours he had.
1. Tell me these things.
2. Actually, I stopped pushing for NQT's lynch because he admitted that he could have done more himself, as I stated above.
Yeah, I don't see that as you dropping your argument because NQT admitted he played badly, or anything of the sort. I see you dropping your argument because it was bad. (Do note: Quotes are obviously snipped a bit.)Scripten
I'm sorry but I still don't see how any of this amounts to a case. My reads change as I reassess evidence. How are these speculations of yours any different from WIFOM?
Unvote NQT
Vote Deathsword
Actually... that's a fair enough point for now. I hadn't really thought about the time stamps that much, since I remembered the day passing very slowly for me.
Wait a minute... what case? Where have you responded to his accusations about your interactions with NQT & Persus? I've seen you asserting in Day 1 that Flabort is suspicious and that you have a case on him, but the only meaty things you've said about him are in response to the Day 1 reads thing- you know, which he said wasn't a big deal?
Any time I mentioned the reads "case" Flabort had on me, it was in response to it being brought up again. By Flabort or others. I was getting tired of hearing it.
My case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset. Do you really think that going after people who extended the day for extending the day is pro-town? Do you think that tunneling another player for RL delays in their play looks like town behavior? Please, tell me all about my line of thinking since you seem to know it so well.
By the way, Cheetar, care to explain why you're buddying NQT so hard while you're at it? Assuming he's town, do you think that sheeping his wagon on day 1 and chainsaw defending him later on is going to net you town cred?
I mean specifically in response to your 'it wasn't towny of him to have voted the way he did' - I'm strictly speaking in terms of who he could've voted for at the time, and who he chose to vote for was most towny to me. You were arguing earlier that it wasn't towny to have voted the way he did.
1. He was pushing for a lynch on somebody other than Flabort, and did not poke me about me not voting for Flabort despite finding him scummy. If Flabort flipped scum, this would've been hugely suspicious. Flabort didn't!
2. Yeah, I don't see that as you dropping your argument because NQT admitted he played badly, or anything of the sort. I see you dropping your argument because it was bad. (Do note: Quotes are obviously snipped a bit.)
You're not voting for him, so you can hardly claim that I'm doing it now, but thanks for saying that calling you out on your terrible argument (that you've dropped) is chainsaw defending.
Note: He didn't.Spoiler: Flabort 'saying extending is scummy' (click to show/hide)
I understand how easy it is to construe his post as saying that (I made that mistake) but looking back, well, he pretty clearly isn't. He's just speaking poorly, but that doesn't make his suspicions any less valid.
I mean specifically in response to your 'it wasn't towny of him to have voted the way he did' - I'm strictly speaking in terms of who he could've voted for at the time, and who he chose to vote for was most towny to me. You were arguing earlier that it wasn't towny to have voted the way he did.
You did not say that. You said that "there's only so many things he could have done." I replied that even NQT admits he could have done more. Tell me how these are not related.
1. He was pushing for a lynch on somebody other than Flabort, and did not poke me about me not voting for Flabort despite finding him scummy. If Flabort flipped scum, this would've been hugely suspicious. Flabort didn't!
Flabort's lynch was all but guaranteed. Scum-NQT would have found it just as easy to avoid poking you about that inconsistency. This is not alignment indicative in the slightest.
2. Yeah, I don't see that as you dropping your argument because NQT admitted he played badly, or anything of the sort. I see you dropping your argument because it was bad. (Do note: Quotes are obviously snipped a bit.)
Except that what I said was that the time stamps and the fact that NQT said "I should have pushed stronger on the people voting Flabort." were what convinced me to unvote him.You're not voting for him, so you can hardly claim that I'm doing it now, but thanks for saying that calling you out on your terrible argument (that you've dropped) is chainsaw defending.
Actually, my argument was just fine. Maybe you'd prefer it if no town scumhunted at all?
I'm sorry but I still don't see how any of this amounts to a case.
Actually... that's a fair enough point for now.
Note: He didn't.Spoiler: Flabort 'saying extending is scummy' (click to show/hide)
I understand how easy it is to construe his post as saying that (I made that mistake) but looking back, well, he pretty clearly isn't. He's just speaking poorly, but that doesn't make his suspicions any less valid.
Then what WERE his suspicions? That I was pushing NQT to talk about current events in the thread? Please.
It was 3-4. You were online at the time and posting. You could've turned the lynch around by changing your vote. Flabort's lynch was not 'all but guaranteed'.
Your argument was not a strong one at all. That you dropped it so quickly shows through.
Those were his suspicions! Would you like to answer those, instead of continually going on about your Day 1 reads?
1. Scripten was awfully "hands off" during my/persus's conflict
2. I got no reason to suspect him other than gut feeling, honestly.
3. I feel like he was railroading NQT into Persus, and possibly me too.
4. I'm not really sure, but there definitely seems to be some connection between him and Persus in some way.
5. I have his attention, this might not be good for me.
6. Long replies get attention.
7. Persus and I seem to be Scripten's Pre-game targets, despite saying "I don't do these" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5749238#msg5749238)
By the way, if my "day one reads" are mentioned again, I'm going to lose my mind. The ONLY times I've said anything about them at all has been when replying to people talking to me about them.
What was it that specifically made you feel confident about leaving your vote on Flabort? You seem fairly unsure here.
That was fairly early in the day. I reassessed the play before I took a short leave of absence and, when I returned, I found myself happy with where my vote was.
Specifically, it was here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5757397#msg5757397) where my scum read got serious. That whole "you don't put much stock in day one reads but you totally make them when you're asked to so you're hypocrite scum" just felt like reaching. He tried to make me question my reads (which felt disingenuous) and made a big deal out of extending.
See here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5764927#msg5764927).
Cheeetar: He voted for DS a few posts after explaining why voting for DS was bad. Cheeetar, can you explain a bit more why you voted for DS?
<Flabort suspects Varee, Scripten & Persus, mentions how they all extended, asks them some questions>
Flabort, your accusations make no sense here. You suspect the three people who extended, when that's against the interests of scum. Scum would let the day end without any real suspects. Why do you think that these people are suspicious other than the reason you listed here?
4. flabort: Slight scum lean because of his ridiculous reasons for voting. Currently arguing with Persus; I'm not going to comment much on that until it settles.
I'm not blaming you for not changing your vote- merely pointing out that it was not inevitable for Flabort to have been lynched at the time. There was sufficient time for a change of minds (that did not occur.)
Not sure what you mean. Sorry.
Thank you for addressing some of Flabort's concerns. As they were Flabort's, I can't exactly do much to argue them now that you've answered them- I just wanted you to at least respond to them.
Also, TheDarkStar has legit made me lose my mind. I never said I didn't like posting Day 1 reads. I said that they are often wrong and are not as useful as later reads, but they can move the game state forward, so they are pro-town in general. Can't really respond to anything else in there since none of it has anything to do with the current day. (What's with the stalling?)
Also, TheDarkStar has legit made me lose my mind. I never said I didn't like posting Day 1 reads. I said that they are often wrong and are not as useful as later reads, but they can move the game state forward, so they are pro-town in general. Can't really respond to anything else in there since none of it has anything to do with the current day. (What's with the stalling?)
You noted that you did not like Day 1 reads, but you saw that they were necessary. That's not my main point, though. Your play yesterday was scummy, and I want you to answer some questions about your lynch choice. It might be about a different day, but how does that make the events of Day 1 less important?
Also, TheDarkStar has legit made me lose my mind. I never said I didn't like posting Day 1 reads. I said that they are often wrong and are not as useful as later reads, but they can move the game state forward, so they are pro-town in general. Can't really respond to anything else in there since none of it has anything to do with the current day. (What's with the stalling?)
You noted that you did not like Day 1 reads, but you saw that they were necessary. That's not my main point, though. Your play yesterday was scummy, and I want you to answer some questions about your lynch choice. It might be about a different day, but how does that make the events of Day 1 less important?
I've answered everything you asked about today already, at length. Explain how my actions were scummy.
My case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset.
TheDarkStarMy case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset.
I never "avoided" saying why I wanted to lynch Flabort yesterday any more than you did. Care to explain how that would make me scum in any case?
Okay, slept on this and have had time to think it over. Apologies to you, Cheetar, for losing my cool. It's been a rough week IRL.
TheDarkStarMy case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset.
I never "avoided" saying why I wanted to lynch Flabort yesterday any more than you did. Care to explain how that would make me scum in any case?
You are still avoiding answering my question. If you wondering why it makes you scummy, though, it's because you voted to lynch a townie for no good reason. This makes me think that you just wanted to get someone lynched, which is a scum attitude.
TheDarkStarMy case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset.
I never "avoided" saying why I wanted to lynch Flabort yesterday any more than you did. Care to explain how that would make me scum in any case?
You are still avoiding answering my question. If you wondering why it makes you scummy, though, it's because you voted to lynch a townie for no good reason. This makes me think that you just wanted to get someone lynched, which is a scum attitude.
Flabort was scummy because his reads looked fabricated as all hell, he was speaking in confusing riddles, and was acting, in general, from what looked like a scum mindset. If you read up on day 2 before posting, you'd have known this already.
Now, why did you lynch Flabort? Because you hopped right on that wagon and rode it to lynch very nearly when I did. Was it for the same reasons, because that's what your posts tell me. If so, how is it scummy when I do it and not when you do? Because you want an easy wagon to sheep that already has a little momentum?
TheDarkStar:[/b]<Flabort suspects Varee, Scripten & Persus, mentions how they all extended, asks them some questions>
Flabort, your accusations make no sense here. You suspect the three people who extended, when that's against the interests of scum. Scum would let the day end without any real suspects. Why do you think that these people are suspicious other than the reason you listed here?
4. flabort: Slight scum lean because of his ridiculous reasons for voting. Currently arguing with Persus; I'm not going to comment much on that until it settles.
What did you think of Flabort's later explanations of why he found those people suspicious?
As an aside: Extending is not strictly/always a towny thing.
I asked you a question earlier, can you answer it?
Cheeetar: He voted for DS a few posts after explaining why voting for DS was bad. Cheeetar, can you explain a bit more why you voted for DS?
I saw it as a choice between losing Flabort and losing Deathsword. I don't generally analyse or look upon Mafia in the same way that NQT does - his approach is a lot more sophisticated - and his explanation made sense in terms of most information gained for a Day 1 lynch. I changed my mind.
If I had noticed them at the time, I probably would have reconsidered a bit. However, I was busy ICing the BM game and missed them.
Another question to you: Why did you not explain why you were lynching flabort Day 1?
As for why I voted for flabort: He was finding people scummy for silly reasons, so I voted for that. Afterwards, I was busy and couldn't read over stuff well, so I wasn't able to make a good reply later on.
I asked you a question earlier, can you answer it?
You mean this, DarkStar?Cheeetar: He voted for DS a few posts after explaining why voting for DS was bad. Cheeetar, can you explain a bit more why you voted for DS?
I saw it as a choice between losing Flabort and losing Deathsword. I don't generally analyse or look upon Mafia in the same way that NQT does - his approach is a lot more sophisticated - and his explanation made sense in terms of most information gained for a Day 1 lynch. I changed my mind.If I had noticed them at the time, I probably would have reconsidered a bit. However, I was busy ICing the BM game and missed them.
You asked Flabort a question. You voted for him because you thought his reads didn't make sense, and asked for him to explain them. He replied (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5763352#msg5763352) to this question on the 27th of October 2014, 15:12:50 (East Australian time.) You posted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5765479#msg5765479) after this on the 28th of October 2014, 12:17:29. A full 21 hours had passed. The day ended (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144759.msg5768258#msg5768258) on the 29th of October 2014, 15:47:31. You had around 45 hours to read his response and change your vote, during which you had posted in the game. I do not believe you when you say you didn't notice this response.
I think TheDarkStar's explanation of his lynching of Flabort is much more scummy than Scripten's.
Unvote Scripten, vote TheDarkStar.
Scripten:
Now you're saying that you did not feel any need to give reasons for lynching because other people were voting for him. Isn't this a scumtell? Also, notice that I didn't have any posts in the last few pages of the day while you had several - you had ample opportunity to explain what you were doing.
I have another question for you: why is my response more scummy?
Flabort was scummy because his reads looked fabricated as all hell, he was speaking in confusing riddles, and was acting, in general, from what looked like a scum mindset.
PFP, having to deal with preparations for my upcoming birthday (tomorrow, if you wonder)I hope you had a nice birthday!
I look forward to seeing this full case. We've got until very late on Monday if there are no extensions, I hope to see more from you before then.Deathsword, can you give me two scum picks now we've had a flip and about 24 hours talking without your input?Persus and Varee, for now. I may go back on the Persus part, but Varee's actions are making me quite sure he is not uncooperative town, as I suggested he might be before. But a full case must wait.
notquitethere: Makes long analytical posts. NQT, why haven't you done any serious scumhunting? You voted for DS, but that started out as a pressure vote and just never got moved. You've barely pressured people for their play as far as I can tell. There are questions asked, but no scumhunting.I have no idea what you're expecting to see, but I've been seriously scumhunting. I've been questioning almost every player in almost every post I make. I've been looking at what cases players have made. I've been following up on responses. How is all this not scumhunting? In fact, in a bunch of the reads your quotes were drawn from player's responses to things I'd asked them. Day 1, I pressed three different cases, you only pressed one. My vote on Deathsword was because he was the best lynch candidate, it wasn't just a 'pressure vote'.
TheDarkStar
Could you respond to this:DarkStar I find it interesting that you call me out as scummy for following up on my RVS questions when all you did is ask a bunch of RVS questions and not respond to any of the replies. Why did you ask so many obviously questions that you obviously didn't care about?
This doesn't strike me as a very strong case. Do you genuinely think that Varee has made a real effort to try to get Scripten to role claim?Quote from: NQTDo you see anything scummy in today's posts?Definitely. It seems that in Varee's post he is implying that Scripten is a PR. I think that he may be trying to get Scripten to role claim, which is more likely, or perhaps trying to make his scumbuddy seem like a PR so we don't lynch him, which is much less likely and probably harder to pull off IMO. His post was also confusing again, but I'm pretty sure Varee's scum at the moment.
I should get up a bigger post later tonight.
Why do you think he was chastising Cheeetar for trying to get a power role to claim then?Quote from: NQTDo you see anything scummy in today's posts?Definitely. It seems that in Varee's posthe is implying that Scripten is a PR. I think that he may be trying to get Scripten to role claim, which is more likely, or perhaps trying to make his scumbuddy seem like a PR so we don't lynch him, which is much less likely and probably harder to pull off IMO. His post was also confusing again, but I'm pretty sure Varee's scum at the moment.
Aka, we probably have a jailkeeper. So why the contradiction?Well, I guess we have a jailkeeper.Not necessarily. A lot of stuff could've happened. This is WIFOM, but I'll list a few:
- Jailkeeper blocked scum
- Jailkeeper protected the target
- Scum decided not to kill, so Jailkeeper's action had no effect (unless they blocked the cop or roleblocker, but that is unrelated to the kill)
My vote remains on Scripten. When he says that Flabort was scummy for saying that him posting day 1 reads was scummy, he is misrepresenting what Flabort said. This happened in Day 1, too. While he linked to himself saying:Scripten What do you think about being accused of parroting (even if the overall lean was town)?
Eh, my case was built around an interaction between you and another player for the most part.
You'll note if you look through his posts he doesn't actually have a case on Flabort, and he never did. It's only been posts asserting that Flabort was scumreading him for posting Day 1 reads, except...Scripten Doesn't put much value into Day 1 reads, yet forms them anyways. I guess this isn't bad. Earlier points above, as well. Directing people at either me or Persus for whatever reason. Probably scum.
That wasn't why Flabort was seeing Scripten as scum.
Persus13:Scripten:Considering you've answered this question yourself in this post, my answer is obviously going to be biased. However, I agree that he is answering questions in a dodgy manner consistent with scum. While he may be changing his playstyle in light of it not working, his activity is the most scummy at this point in the game. I find his pushes to be scum-motivated, as he is concentrating on people who would be easier to lynch this early in the game as opposed to later. (Notably, his insistence that me finding Day 1 reads to be often erroneous makes me posting my reads now to be hypocritical, when it obviously is not.) Intellectual dishonesty is a fairly good scumtell.flabort - Wee bit scummy, but it's hard to tell considering his usual play.Why do you feel flabort is scummy?
I'm just saying it's somewhat hypocritical, scripten, to say that day 1 reads are nigh useless, and then be the first to post day 1 reads (the earlier ones were described as play styles, and not reads, so they don't count).
Among the other things I expect from other players, it's consistency.
People change their minds. Personally I thought that NQT's case on Deathsword and pointing out what made Flabort townish was convincing enough that I was considering switching. Ultimately, I decided to stick to a Flabort lynch.It was 3-4. You were online at the time and posting. You could've turned the lynch around by changing your vote. Flabort's lynch was not 'all but guaranteed'.
Did you miss the part where I THOUGHT HE WAS SCUM AND NQT DIDN'T? Do you realize that you're now literally trying to push the same case on me that you found me scummy for pushing on NQT? (Except mine was based on reality.)
Yeah I just realise the flaw in that plan.....
I need to stop posting during late night...
Are you suggesting that it's a good plan, DarkStar?
Deathsword, is nobody suspicious to you? Are you okay with a DarkStar lynch?
Deathsword, is nobody suspicious to you? Are you okay with a DarkStar lynch?As a matter of fact, I'm not.
I think Deathsword said he'd be around before deadline, so this makes me a little sad to see. Maybe his birthday was just so awesome that he's still recovering?Am before the deadline, though I guess not by much. Now's just the first time today I actually had time to post, since I go to a course/university (depending on the weekday) and then there's work. Not counting the time I take to study at home. Fortunately the course part of it is going away next week.
If I was a jailer , I would have jailed Deathsword.Why am I not surprised?
@cheetar : I dont think I will believe if someone claim jailer but the information would be nice if they end up dead so....So you want the jailkeeper to claim then, giving the scum (possibly you, by the way you're fishing) a big target?
@TDS I was trying to get DS to answer questions. He seem to just ignore them though.What? I missed one single question on day one, which I later answered when someone specifically pointed out which one. I did not ignore that question. Never ONCE you quoted those questions, stated the post number, straight up asked them again yourself. Nothing. Ever since I called you out on OUTRIGHT REFUSING to answer a specific question for bullshit reasons, you have been trying to hammer this point, over and over and over, I guess in the hopes that someone will be dense enough to believe your lazy bullshit case. Since you are so adamant I am ignoring (not missing, not in Varee world, oh no), why don't you say which mythical questions those are?
What I was trying to get at is that we shouldn't discard the possibility that scum chose not to kill. From my own attempts (often successful) at this, it usually precedes a fakeclaim later down the line.Aka, we probably have a jailkeeper. So why the contradiction?Well, I guess we have a jailkeeper.Not necessarily. A lot of stuff could've happened. This is WIFOM, but I'll list a few:
- Jailkeeper blocked scum
- Jailkeeper protected the target
- Scum decided not to kill, so Jailkeeper's action had no effect (unless they blocked the cop or roleblocker, but that is unrelated to the kill)
Deathsword:That wasn't a reaction vote. I called Varee out on what I percieved as bullshit. The bullshit being that it seemed that he was implying two players were buddying and yet, instead of pressing them or anything of the sort, he proceeds to vote someone absent. The fact it was me had nothing to do with that. When he clears it up and says he meant something else, it changed from "not pressing people on a scum-move, instead voting on lurker" to "has no case and instead is voting lurker". He then proceeded to flail about wildly, outright refuse to answer a question, deflecting his refusal by claiming I was the one actually doing it (I missed a single question, not deliberately, and as soon as it was brought to my attention I proceeded to answer it). Now he role-fishes, makes absolutely ZERO good suggestions to the game and keeps trying get his bullshit "case" on me through. I think this is basis enough to vote someone without being a reaction-vote, ain't it? This also proves you paid no attention to my whole interaction with Varee in D1 besides "Varee votes DS and DS votes Varee".Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, Darkstar has actually provided some content today, Deathsword has not, so once again he makes a better lynch choice (though I still think Darkstar is pretty scummy).
Also, Darkstar has actually provided some content today, Deathsword has not, so once again he makes a better lynch choice (though I still think Darkstar is pretty scummy).
Who's more scummy- the person who lies when explaining themselves, or the person who doesn't post?
TDS, seriously, if you're town please respond to people's cases.
Do you think trying to lynch flabort is a scum move? I mean he is one of the more experience player so getting rid of him benefit the scum unless he is a scum himself rigt?WM-
Besides Varee, who do you think is most likely to be scum? I'm asking this because I think that is is somewhat strange you have only one scum read.NQT-
Who do you think is scum hunting the most and the least so far?
is lynching 'uncooperative town' a part of your win-con? If not, why aren't you actually trying to hunt scum?
and shouldnt the extendtion be 48 hrs?...
As a side note, does anyone mind if I cut extensions down to 24 hours?
Extensions will be 24 hours, instead of standard 48 hours, unless there is an objection.
First off, high post count != high ammount of content. You can place a lot of content into a few posts, or nearly none in many.
I forgot I was typing a case and close it ......
So Deathsword, My case against you is no where near solid but you cannot denied that you contributed the least, barely anything useful at all.
You have a total of like 8 post in the whole game...
1- Answering RVS
2- Nothing
3-Internet issue and more RVS, vote on me
4- Pressing the issue of me talking about NQT-flabort interaction
5-Asking for read from cheetar
6-reads
7- birthday anouncement and little talk about jailer
8-more post and case on me
OK first you definitly miss more than one question, I can quote some nowAnd why, pray tell, didn't you just do this way back when you first accused me of ignoring (not missing) the questions. Why wait now, the end of D2 to point which ones you were talking about?
ME-QuoteDo you think trying to lynch flabort is a scum move? I mean he is one of the more experience player so getting rid of him benefit the scum unless he is a scum himself rigt?WM-QuoteBesides Varee, who do you think is most likely to be scum? I'm asking this because I think that is is somewhat strange you have only one scum read.NQT-QuoteWho do you think is scum hunting the most and the least so far?Quoteis lynching 'uncooperative town' a part of your win-con? If not, why aren't you actually trying to hunt scum?
That all D1 question so answers?
Also, Darkstar has actually provided some content today, Deathsword has not, so once again he makes a better lynch choice (though I still think Darkstar is pretty scummy).
Who's more scummy- the person who lies when explaining themselves, or the person who doesn't post?
That's a rather strong accusation - where exactly did I lie?
As for why I voted for flabort: He was finding people scummy for silly reasons, so I voted for that. Afterwards, I was busy and couldn't read over stuff well, so I wasn't able to make a good reply later on.
If I had noticed them at the time, I probably would have reconsidered a bit. However, I was busy ICing the BM game and missed them.
Which things have I missed?
TheDarkStarnotquitethere: Makes long analytical posts. NQT, why haven't you done any serious scumhunting? You voted for DS, but that started out as a pressure vote and just never got moved. You've barely pressured people for their play as far as I can tell. There are questions asked, but no scumhunting.I have no idea what you're expecting to see, but I've been seriously scumhunting. I've been questioning almost every player in almost every post I make. I've been looking at what cases players have made. I've been following up on responses. How is all this not scumhunting? In fact, in a bunch of the reads your quotes were drawn from player's responses to things I'd asked them. Day 1, I pressed three different cases, you only pressed one. My vote on Deathsword was because he was the best lynch candidate, it wasn't just a 'pressure vote'.
Also, you never answered this:TheDarkStar
Could you respond to this:DarkStar I find it interesting that you call me out as scummy for following up on my RVS questions when all you did is ask a bunch of RVS questions and not respond to any of the replies. Why did you ask so many obviously questions that you obviously didn't care about?
You say I've not been scumhunting when you were just going through the motions yourself.
I keep feeling like going after Varee for having weak cases is the epitome of an easy mislynch.So we should excuse everyone with a weak case because it might be a mislynch even if having a weak case is, in and of itself, a sign of poor scumhunting and thus scum behavior?
Who's more scummy- the person who lies when explaining themselves, or the person who doesn't post?
@NQT I havent got time to read all the post yet. I dont know what to do with DS, he doesnt respond so maybe busy too? WM seem to be throwing his vote at me for no reason...... Not a solid case.Yeah, it's tough dealing with people that don't respond. Ultimately, we have to lynch players who don't engage.
Back on the topic of jailer though, the thing is SOMEONE must have some information and i just worry that it will go to the grave with them.This could look like you're trying to get someone to claim so you can night kill them.
I keep feeling like going after Varee for having weak cases is the epitome of an easy mislynch.So we should excuse everyone with a weak case because it might be a mislynch even if having a weak case is, in and of itself, a sign of poor scumhunting and thus scum behavior?
Cheeetar: If you had to choose a side in the Deathsword-Varee argument, who would you side with?
Scripten, at one point today you linked to a TDS post and said I looked suspicious because of that. Why? TDS having a town read on me?
Sorry, yeah I meant to say: people who are caught in malicious lies are scummier than merely inactive players, though outright lies are rare. What is more common is misremembering, exaggeration, oversimplification etc. And town can be guilty of that as well.
Sorry, yeah I meant to say: people who are caught in malicious lies are scummier than merely inactive players, though outright lies are rare. What is more common is misremembering, exaggeration, oversimplification etc. And town can be guilty of that as well.
Once I flip, make sure to play attention to this. NQT hasn't offered evidence that I am lying at all, even though he has had a very long time to. If he doesn't explain tomorrow, lynch him (barring jailor stuff).
Since you are so adamant I am ignoring (not missing, not in Varee world, oh no), why don't you say which mythical questions those are?I did what you want me too or asked me to, why do you seem to not like it? I did say quoting post is a pain on a phone so I can only do it sometime.
Persus13, why are you voting for Deathsword, why do you find Varee suspicious?They were the ones making a big deal about the lack of a kill and talking about who the jailkeeper was (Deathsword may have used it as an attack point, but he still made a big deal about it.)
Do you have questions to ask them, Persus? We should still use this day to scumhunt.You mean besides the question I already did ask them? Yes, but I'll think I'll wait. I'm fully aware that we need to scumhunt today, I just was busy with studying for a midterm yesterday.
Deathsword, Varee, care to comment on why the jailkeeper died?Although Varee did try to fish for the jk, I don't think there was success on that front. Still think he is scum, mind you, but I don't think that fishing worked.
Since you are so adamant I am ignoring (not missing, not in Varee world, oh no), why don't you say which mythical questions those are?I did what you want me too or asked me to, why do you seem to not like it? I did say quoting post is a pain on a phone so I can only do it sometime.[/quote]
Ok high post count might not mean that you post alot but if you really want to do that, I can go get a word count and see if you really have the lowest content. Your tunnel vision and single minded focus might leads to a better case than mine but I think all the point in you case also apply to you too. You said I am actively lurking but what you are doing is lurking which is no better than what I am.A lot of words also do not mean content. I could write a book and say absolutely nothing at all. There are even scripts on the internet for that very purpose. Also I was lurking. Past. Something that ended, that is no longer the case. Also, I like how you explicitly admit in the end of that quote that you are active lurking. That you are intentionally trying to look active without actually doing anything.
I refused to answer question - OK this is one of the thing right? The question that i didnt answer was an extention to the one you keep mentioning, NQT asked me what will I do different in this game. I already stated the reason why I didnt answer that question, It the same reason NQT didnt answer the question about scum tell. Just saying what you are looking for make it alot harder to spot it as people will be aware that you are looking for it. So What wrong with that? Why dont you go bug NQT for not answering that too?Because, unlike the question asked to NQT, yours had no bearing on how the game would unfold. You could have said yes or no, some reasoning as to why and that was it. You were not being asked how you would find scum. You were being asked if, looking back at the finished game, you could tell whom the scum were. NQT's question, on the other hand, required an answer that would say how he would be playing here, in this very game.
So DS how can I tell that you are not deliberately "missing" question to avoid answering them? Why do you keep changing your mind and questioned why I answered a question you posted yourself?In truth, you cannot, but seeing as you were the only one to actually make a fuss out of it, you could have deduced by the others' reactions that it was not intentional. I think the one time I refused to answer a question was in my first non-BM game, and there, like you were here, I was grilled for that. Furthermore, I have no idea what you are talking about that I keep changing my mind. Could you clarify?
Maybe they are staying low to avoid suspicion (that you DS,WM)Why do you think WM is scum? I don't think I've seen a case, or even a reason, as to why, other than trying to link them to me via accusations of lurking. Also WM is up for replacement, so it's not that they are lurking, it's that they are not in the game anymore.
Worldmaster27, Deathsword: Do you still view Varee as the most scummy player?Yes. Although I may end up no lynching if that seems the most advantageous option.
@NQT :
Quote[/size]Quote from: notquitethere on 23,October 2014, 12:20:41 am
In the games you've played before do you think you should have been able to work out who the scum were in hindsight?
I dont remember all the game I played in before but for the last few of them the answer would be no ......[/font][/size]The latest flabort game, I was less focus on helping the town and more on just getting to day 3 as the alternate wincon look more flavorable. I remeber having a really hard time guessing who the scum is in dead chat.The BYOR before that was a little hectic and there no scum so to say......The CYOM was err i dont remeber that too well but I was not doing a very good job except for causing trouble....
In truth, you cannot, but seeing as you were the only one to actually make a fuss out of it,
NQT: Yesterday you analyzed people based on who their scumbuddy was likely to be? If TDS is scum, who do you feel is their most likely scumbuddy? Least likely?Bit late now, but I was thinking Varee or Worldmaster as a possibility.
I never said TDS was lying. I said he wasn't reading the thread, which this comment proves once again. It behooves town players to actually respond to people's repeated questions.Sorry, yeah I meant to say: people who are caught in malicious lies are scummier than merely inactive players, though outright lies are rare. What is more common is misremembering, exaggeration, oversimplification etc. And town can be guilty of that as well.
Once I flip, make sure to play attention to this. NQT hasn't offered evidence that I am lying at all, even though he has had a very long time to. If he doesn't explain tomorrow, lynch him (barring jailor stuff).
OK, so it's very likely Scripten targeted me as a jailer on N1 given their initial attack and the likelihood I'd have been targeted N1. I think we should make sure to extend this day until we get a replacement for Worldmaster. We're pretty screwed if we're in MYLO with an absent player.
Cheetah, what do you think of Varee's play so far? How are you reading them?
How's that coming along, Jack?No replacement offer yet. I'll post about this in Banter.
Also Cheeetar, given that you and NQT both threw RVS votes at Varee, it's still possible you to could be scumbuddies with Varee. Will post more when I don't have a project to work on.That's an interesting theory, though of course Flabort and Darkstar (two town players) also threw RVS votes at Varee.... do you have something better than that to go on?
Whooo! Execute/Dumbo.exe, could we get some reads?Well, the main problem is that while searching through the posts for anything particularly scummy or innocent...ie? I don't have anything to compare it to, so, well, I can't really give you any reads just yet, not to say I'm not still going through the thread.
Also: Are there any parts of Worldmaster's play you particularly agree/disagree with?Really, there isn't much to say about WM's play because he left pretty soon, though from the opinions of people far more experienced than me (You, mostly, though said read was on day 1) he seemed pretty badly scummy, I guess he did seem a bit lurky, but that was mostly because of IRL things I guess, any posts in particular you want to point me to?
Notquitethere: Very analytical, and pretty much every post he makes is pretty big, not to mention how much he gets invested in playing Mafia, though I wouldn't be able to point out many points where he gave great signs for town, Small town lead.Yeah, maybe I take it a bit too seriously. I Varee going to be you're number one scum pick then?
I don't know, I think I'll go with DeathSword Until he posts.Curious. Though you just have a null read on him?
Like I said, until he posts, his birthday thing should be, by now, long over, though I do understand what you mean.I don't know, I think I'll go with DeathSword Until he posts.Curious. Though you just have a null read on him?
Replacement RequestJesus, it really is a curse around here, isn't it?
I am feeling really unwell. Something I ate last week, I think. It's been tolerable until today, but now it's a bit too much. Either way, I am in no state to play.
Is 3 replacements normal in mafia?In larger games, it happens sometimes. However, they can handle replacements more easily.
So you're 100% on Varee being scum if I'm not, Persus?No, an NQT Dumbo scumteam is still possible. I'm getting MyLo paranoid, so everyone else could be scum right now.
ExtendAlso Cheeetar, given that you and NQT both threw RVS votes at Varee, it's still possible you to could be scumbuddies with Varee. Will post more when I don't have a project to work on.Also, this post wasn't intended to be attacking Cheeetar and NQT for RVS votes of Varee, it was stating that Cheeetar wasn't including NQT as a likely scumbuddy for Varee when he made his post analyzing who could be Varee's scumbuddy.