Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: GhostSade on July 28, 2011, 07:26:38 pm
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Say the diagnosis level of a dwarf is like 2, will he give the exact same diagnosis as a legendary diagnostician, or could he screw up and call for incorrect procedures, potentially harming the dwarf and wasting resources and time in the process?
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If it doesn't, then I want it in.
"This man has an infected liver! We're going to have to take it out!"
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I don't think anything like that is implimented yet. It may affect time taken to diagnose, though.
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If it doesn't, then I want it in.
"This man has an infected liver! We're going to have to take it out!"
Sounds like the Medic from TF2. o.o
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"Well, Mr. Urist, there's good news and bad news. The good news is that your spine had only mild bruising. The bad news is that our intern took your legs off anyway."
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"Well, Mr. Urist, there's good news and bad news. The good news is that your spine had only mild bruising. The bad news is that our intern took your legs off anyway."
sigged
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Yes the skill affects the diagonsis. Low levels will have to re-diagnois often, and will sometimes need multiple tries to get it right. Also some poisons/forgotten beast things won't be caught by low skill levels, like light rotting. It makes it really hard to stop otherwise preventable things.
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Yes the skill affects the diagonsis. Low levels will have to re-diagnois often, and will sometimes need multiple tries to get it right. Also some poisons/forgotten beast things won't be caught by low skill levels, like light rotting. It makes it really hard to stop otherwise preventable things.
i had a hunch this was the case.
suddenly i dont feel dumb at ALL for always embarking with a 5 point diagnoser.
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I had a fish cleaner turned emergency medic diagnose a missing foot 7 times before finally coming to the glorious conclusion that the patient needed a crutch. Which somebody else gave him, so I'm not even sure Dr. McI'mBetterWithIchthyes was the one that figured it out.
Bad diagnosers are hilarious....and sometimes a little sad.
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welp I just did a bit of testing
A 0 skill medic with diagnose turned on, who barely cared for others with no empathy just diagnosed a patient with rotten lungs (for a small cut on thier arm) and then removed both lungs. He did not survive the operation. It seems that skill-less diagnoses can give false results.
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welp I just did a bit of testing
A 0 skill medic with diagnose turned on, who barely cared for others with no empathy just diagnosed a patient with rotten lungs (for a small cut on thier arm) and then removed both lungs. He did not survive the operation. It seems that skill-less diagnoses can give false results.
Well, maybe that's just dwarven medicine. We need a control test. Have a legendary diagnoser do the same operation on the same guy!
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welp I just did a bit of testing
A 0 skill medic with diagnose turned on, who barely cared for others with no empathy just diagnosed a patient with rotten lungs (for a small cut on thier arm) and then removed both lungs. He did not survive the operation. It seems that skill-less diagnoses can give false results.
I will now start placing 0-skill diagnosticians as my chief medical dwarves. This is hilarious.
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Doctor: He needs surgery! We must remove his damaged lungs to keep the rotting from spreading!
Nurse:Doctor, are you sure that's wise?
Doctor:Quiet! I'm the doctor.
*Hack chop*
Urist McBuisedToe has suffocated.
Doctor:No, I lost him.... Why must God take away only the good people!!!!!
Armok: Because you removed both his lungs you dumbass.
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A 0 skill medic with diagnose turned on, who barely cared for others with no empathy just diagnosed a patient with rotten lungs (for a small cut on thier arm) and then removed both lungs. He did not survive the operation.
Wait... what?
I knew dwarfs were idiots, but this takes the cake. Mmm... cake.
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I had a legendary diagnoser (odd fortress where more were wounded than killed and I git a ton of doctors coming in via migration) once. It was pretty awesome, he hated people in general and managed to get his leg seriously damaged in an FB attack. So I named him House. There was also a novice surgeon who came in with novice surgery skills. He was immediately made into both the butcher and the surgeon, both facilities were next to each other, lots of fun was had. :D
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A 0 skill medic with diagnose turned on, who barely cared for others with no empathy just diagnosed a patient with rotten lungs (for a small cut on thier arm) and then removed both lungs. He did not survive the operation. It seems that skill-less diagnoses can give false results.
My god, it all makes sense now. You know how your legendary miner breaks 7 bones in a cave-in then continues working, refusing to see a doctor? Or your military dwarf loses an arm and gets a dozen other slashes from goblin blades, gets infected, but never stops patrolling? No wonder, if this is the medical care they have to look forward to.
"Ach no, dinnae take me to them butchers in the hospital, nae so long as I kin still crawl to the ale stockpile on me own."
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A 0 skill medic with diagnose turned on, who barely cared for others with no empathy just diagnosed a patient with rotten lungs (for a small cut on thier arm) and then removed both lungs. He did not survive the operation. It seems that skill-less diagnoses can give false results.
My god, it all makes sense now. You know how your legendary miner breaks 7 bones in a cave-in then continues working, refusing to see a doctor? Or your military dwarf loses an arm and gets a dozen other slashes from goblin blades, gets infected, but never stops patrolling? No wonder, if this is the medical care they have to look forward to.
"Ach no, dinnae take me to them butchers in the hospital, nae so long as I kin still crawl to the ale stockpile on me own."
on the other hand, it meshes with my goblin fortress project quite nicely!
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I'm not sure whether to blame the "adequate" diagnoser or the "novice" suturer, but I had a dwarf who got shot through the hand by a goblin. He went to the hospital, got diagnosed, got the wound cleaned, stitched up and bandaged, and went happily back to his daily routine... where I found that he still had the arrow stuck through his hand.
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I'm not sure whether to blame the "adequate" diagnoser or the "novice" suturer, but I had a dwarf who got shot through the hand by a goblin. He went to the hospital, got diagnosed, got the wound cleaned, stitched up and bandaged, and went happily back to his daily routine... where I found that he still had the arrow stuck through his hand.
If he attacks somebody, can he use it/does it affect anything?
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I'm not sure whether to blame the "adequate" diagnoser or the "novice" suturer, but I had a dwarf who got shot through the hand by a goblin. He went to the hospital, got diagnosed, got the wound cleaned, stitched up and bandaged, and went happily back to his daily routine... where I found that he still had the arrow stuck through his hand.
Ya I see dwarves leave the hospital with an arrow left in them and its the diagnoser, i got an level 3 diagnoser(whatever the thing past adequate is) and around level 8 everything else with a few 10+ (all from migrent waves) And the idoets still dont take the arrow out.
UristMcImpaledFoot:Doctor dont you think that should come out?
UristMcIdoet: No thats fine were not suppost to take that out.
UristMcImpaledFoot: But wont it get infected?
UristMcIdoet: No, No, No we cleaned it.
UristMcImpaledFoot:Ya you did, the outside not the inside.
UristMcIdoet: Thats enough
UristMcImpaledFoot: Your an Idoet...
UrintMcImpaledFoot Has Died From Infection.*more*
Should Have Took That Arrow Out Dumb Ass
Not that this can happen(that I know of) but still its funny :P
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The diagnoser has nothing to do with removing the arrow. The arrow will be forbidden by default, being both spent ammunition and enemy equipment, and while it's forbidden no dwarf will touch it to remove it. If you un-forbid the arrow and have an ammunition stockpile, it will be removed and stored, no diagnosis required.
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Many veterans have shell fragments inside their body until they die, I'd imagine that many of the few who got injured during medieval combat and survived may also had some fragments inside their bodies. So, somehow it's realistic.
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Oh yes, I remember the tales of Mormund the Vicious: The greatest warrior who fought with twenty-five arrows and a ballista bolt hanging out of him.
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This is why we need a "perform experimental surgery on pets and prisoners" job
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These hilarious stories does not change fact that dwarf dabbling in medicine with helpful personality will save more lives than legendary doctor that hates people. Someone can wonder how exactly he get to legendary status, but game simply do not check personality while generating skills for imigrants.
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He grew to legendary status as TF2's Medic... Using "healing" as a cover-up for satisfying his curiosity.
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The diagnoser has nothing to do with removing the arrow. The arrow will be forbidden by default, being both spent ammunition and enemy equipment, and while it's forbidden no dwarf will touch it to remove it. If you un-forbid the arrow and have an ammunition stockpile, it will be removed and stored, no diagnosis required.
But it seems like sometimes they do remove them, without me unforbidding them. A dwarf will leave the hospital and there'll be a {(copper arrow)} sitting on the bed in a pool of blood. Unfortunately I don't have any goblins handy with which to test this, but that's what I remember.
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The diagnoser has nothing to do with removing the arrow. The arrow will be forbidden by default, being both spent ammunition and enemy equipment, and while it's forbidden no dwarf will touch it to remove it. If you un-forbid the arrow and have an ammunition stockpile, it will be removed and stored, no diagnosis required.
But it seems like sometimes they do remove them, without me unforbidding them. A dwarf will leave the hospital and there'll be a {(copper arrow)} sitting on the bed in a pool of blood. Unfortunately I don't have any goblins handy with which to test this, but that's what I remember.
I have seen this myself. They will remove forbidden arrows. Before healthcare was put in, dwarves used to not remove forbidden arrows from themselves, but the doctors will.
I do wish it were possible to train diagnosticians and doctors. Every doctor that comes to my fort loses skill over time. Every 5 years or so I'll have some big emergency, and nobody is up to speed.
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Yea I have the same problem. They get a little bit of a workout about twice a year, when the goblins show up, but it's rarely more than one or two melee guys who took some minor injury or another, not enough to keep the docs from going rusty.
And then once in awhile I'll have this big influx of patients like when a siege went particularly badly for my melee guys, or an elite goblin bowman got in range of my fortifications before I could pull my own archers back, and suddenly I'm stuck with half a dozen doctors who barely remember what they are doing trying to fix up a dozen or more soldiers who took the pointy end of some goblin weapon to a fleshy bit.
Perhaps if we had some way to keep our doctors from going rusty, without something meta like a training spear spike in the main hall.
Corpses could be good for that, making a use for sentient corpses that can't be actually butchered but is probably close enough to dwarf anatomy to be useful in diagnosis (what killed this goblin and why). Animals too I imagine for stuff like suturing, wound dressing, bone setting and surgery too. PETA would burn an effigy of you on a stake, but it doesn't seem too absurd for a practicing doctor to cause some wound to an animal and then fix it up for practice. Be useless for diagnosis though, since the animals are significantly different anatomically.
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So I guess if a patient had a nosebleed, the dwarven doctor would apply a tourniquet to the neck.
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PETA would burn an effigy of you on a stake, but it doesn't seem too absurd for a practicing doctor to cause some wound to an animal and then fix it up for practice. Be useless for diagnosis though, since the animals are significantly different anatomically.
A friend of mine was deployed as a medic to Iraq. Before they went, they had what they called a "goat lab." Nothing officially sanctioned, of course.
You'd be surprised at how similar people are to other mammals. Wouldn't trust a vet to cut a tumor out of me, not with any better options around, but as far as diagnosis goes, a lot of it relies on symptoms that people share with most mammals. There are specific details to each animal, of course-- vital signs are different, for instance-- but we have the same organs mostly, that provide the same functions, and lead to the same signs when things go wrong. Even medical treatment is similar, although of course doses differ.
Of course, DF deals with even more primitive medicine that we've got today. A cut's a cut, and a fracture's a fracture. Even DF surgery seems to deal mostly with excision of necrotic flesh. People are easier to treat than animals-- they'll describe what's wrong, and they'll even follow instructions some of the time.
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and they'll even follow instructions some of the time.
Urist McDoc "now you keep that that bandage on"
Urist McArrowwound *promptly dumps bandage in room*
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PETA would burn an effigy of you on a stake...
I think they're already doing that every now and then...
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With all the stuff people have done to kittens in DF, PETA isn't exactly about to become more pissed off by some animal dissecting.
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PETA are modern-day elves. Fuck them.
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I wonder...did that doc that removed the dwarf's lungs get the dwarf as a kill?
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Urist McUnfriendlyDoctor the Butcher of Patients: 17 notable kills
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(After a patient comes in suffering from broken limbs and mangled organs. Having fought of the greatest and most powerful FB the surgeon deems in necessary to revive him)
Urist McUnfriendlyDoctor: "Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology."
Urist McNurse "True, but it's not the technology we're worried about doctor."
(Urist McUnfriendly Doctor turns on Urist McNurse slowly menacing with a cleaver)
Urist McUnfriendlyDoctor: "Oh dear, nurse, you seem to have a brain hemorrhage. Shame that but don't worry, I shall fix it and you permanently")
Urist McNurse: "What?! No! No I don't! Get away from me! Get awa....AHHHHH!"
Urist McNurse has been struck down!
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I just had an idea how the problem of the diagnostic-skill becoming rusty could be solved. The idea is pretty much that every dwarf goes to see the diagnostician once per few months for a quick check-up. It would be really short (In-game it would be pretty much just a dwarf running into the hospital, standing next to the dovtor for a few seconds and then leaving) and it wouldn't give the doctor much skill. If the rate at which dwarves get checked is right it should prevent any skill loss and even slowly train the doctor over time.
Though I suppose that mechanic wouldn't really help much now, other than to keep the skill up.
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I just had an idea how the problem of the diagnostic-skill becoming rusty could be solved. The idea is pretty much that every dwarf goes to see the diagnostician once per few months for a quick check-up. It would be really short (In-game it would be pretty much just a dwarf running into the hospital, standing next to the dovtor for a few seconds and then leaving) and it wouldn't give the doctor much skill. If the rate at which dwarves get checked is right it should prevent any skill loss and even slowly train the doctor over time.
Though I suppose that mechanic wouldn't really help much now, other than to keep the skill up.
I can see it now my whole fort dies now because Urist McMason did not build the wall that would save the fortress from flooding/invaders/Moody dwarves/etc... cause he was getting a physical.
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Does this mean that we have advanced beyond the guild system into a union system that advocates mandatory medical care for all workers?
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I can imagine a dabbling diagnosor now during checkups.
Urist: Hi doc, just here for my checkup. If all is good I'll go back to work.
Urist:Ok Urist, lemme just take a quick look see here... CANCER! You have cancer!
Urist: I have what? How can that be? I feel fine!
Urist: Nurse Urist, please remove this dwarf's heart to prevent his blood cancer from spreading. Next patient!
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It seems that in the current system, animals don't receive medical care. Considering how often they seem to fight, enabling medical care for animals might be a great help to keeping your doctors in shape.
I really like the autopsy idea though: modern med students practice techniques and study anatomy with cadavers long before they first put a live patient under the knife. I could easily see a Urist McGalen teaching the proper techniques for suturing and removing necrotic flesh using "spare" goblin corpses.
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A high Memory attribute should help with the problem of diagnosis skill atrophying. Seems like good embark doctor should have high empathy and memory.
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I just had an idea how the problem of the diagnostic-skill becoming rusty could be solved. The idea is pretty much that every dwarf goes to see the diagnostician once per few months for a quick check-up. It would be really short (In-game it would be pretty much just a dwarf running into the hospital, standing next to the dovtor for a few seconds and then leaving) and it wouldn't give the doctor much skill. If the rate at which dwarves get checked is right it should prevent any skill loss and even slowly train the doctor over time.
Though I suppose that mechanic wouldn't really help much now, other than to keep the skill up.
Reminds me of penis inspection day at school.
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Reminds me of penis inspection day at school.
Is that where your nick is from, HorridOwn4ge?
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Reminds me of penis inspection day at school.
pls go
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For those of you who don't want your skilled doctors to rust, has anyone tried settings up something like the following:
1. Have a room with a trap that will injured but not kill a dwarf, don't know what item can do this, would require some science.
2. Have a few dwarfs profession changed to Meatbag.
3. Rough them up a little with your trap room.
4. ????
5. Profit!
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I think Deon whipped up some modded workshops that allow anyone to train up medical skills.
Sure, it's a mod-product but it's something worth looking into if you want to keep your doc's skilled without the use of overly-complex rooms meant to "lightly" injure people. Because sooner or later, the crazy cat lady will walk in with all of her cats, and leave with none.
Also, I'm pretty sure sooner or later Toady will allow animals to get healthcare too, but I figure it's the Animal Caretakers who will do that work. Or maybe not. Might be that their job is just going to be to keep the animals fed and so on, while doc's and etc. will do all medical work. Would be pretty useful regardless.
It's sad that I rarely get a named&titled doorstep guard animal these days, because a few months after they get a name, they die of infection from a cut toe or something. Maybe I should install a flooder to the room. Does getting water all over you help fight infections or is a proper Clean Patient job required?
Anyway. When I make medical teams, it's mostly staffed by migrant-arrived doc's of various skills. Usually I end up giving them all Diagnostic jobs because god damn doc's don't do enough even now. Some jobless dorfs end up with the Nurse job and they have to do everything but diagnostics. Haven't seen too many horrible treatment mistakes yet, so I guess it's rare for them to botch up their job completely. Well that, or a good diagnostics clears that right out and the actual job just takes longer if the dorf doing the surgery or suturing is only dabbling at it.
Although I do have one amusing medical story that came to mind. One fort of mine had a miner who had their upper spine turned to mush by a skeletal camel. Same miner later on had their LOWER spine turned to mush by yet another skeletal camel. They still ended up moving all over the place, couldn't work of course but they managed to survive. Somehow. I don't even want to know how. It's sort of a depressing mental image. We really need dwarven wheelchairs.
Also, if you REALLY must do a wrecking-room for useless dorfs to be turned into work-on patient test subjects, I suggest a good 2-3 level drop from a bridge. That should be enough to give mild injuries. Hopefully. Or you end up with a totally broken dorf from 3 levels of drop.
It's all for SCIENCE though, right?
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Now that I think about it (by watching goblins fall and get their injuries nullified by body armor) Making a simple one or two dwarf squad and forcing them to fall 2 z levels should train your doctors quite nicely. Should create plenty of shattered limbs that should train all but surgery, while giving them a metal breastplate and helmet should protect their vital bits.
And of course I refer people to part 1 of my sig if they choose to attempt this.
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Haven't seen too many horrible treatment mistakes yet, so I guess it's rare for them to botch up their job completely.
AFAIK currently only one medical malpractice possible is neglect (always, ALWAYS give these jobs to dorfs that at like to help other!). Low skill affects only speed.
Other cases are due to bugs (for example: stubbed toe = bedridden for years, ripped off hand = shrug it off and go back to work), not skill level.
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Corpses could be good for that, making a use for sentient corpses that can't be actually butchered but is probably close enough to dwarf anatomy to be useful in diagnosis (what killed this goblin and why). Animals too I imagine for stuff like suturing, wound dressing, bone setting and surgery too. PETA would burn an effigy of you on a stake, but it doesn't seem too absurd for a practicing doctor to cause some wound to an animal and then fix it up for practice. Be useless for diagnosis though, since the animals are significantly different anatomically.
That seems like a cool Idea, so that when a crazy dwarf decides to murder somebody, you can have a team of CSIs to figure out what killed him/her.
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I just had an idea how the problem of the diagnostic-skill becoming rusty could be solved. The idea is pretty much that every dwarf goes to see the diagnostician once per few months for a quick check-up. It would be really short (In-game it would be pretty much just a dwarf running into the hospital, standing next to the dovtor for a few seconds and then leaving) and it wouldn't give the doctor much skill. If the rate at which dwarves get checked is right it should prevent any skill loss and even slowly train the doctor over time.
Though I suppose that mechanic wouldn't really help much now, other than to keep the skill up.
I can see it now my whole fort dies now because Urist McMason did not build the wall that would save the fortress from flooding/invaders/Moody dwarves/etc... cause he was getting a physical.
Which is better than Urist McDoctor misdiagnosing Urist McFriendlyidler's stubbed toe as, say, a rotten brain, causing a massive tantrum spiral. At least it would be more realistic.
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I tested both this doctor myth and ballistas by setting up a ballista at the end of a meeting room.
All of the noob diagnosers correctly diagnosed the wounds.
All of the noob surgeons correctly, though slowly, operated on the patients.
There was no malpractice.
Ballista bolts strike as blunt weapons with a large contact area, meaning that silver-tipped ballista bolts (which weigh as much as if the entire bolt was made of silver) strike with bone-shattering force. Purely wood ballista bolts only bruise muscle and fat.
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Nice multitasking :D
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I think Deon whipped up some modded workshops that allow anyone to train up medical skills.
Sure, it's a mod-product but it's something worth looking into if you want to keep your doc's skilled without the use of overly-complex rooms meant to "lightly" injure people. Because sooner or later, the crazy cat lady will walk in with all of her cats, and leave with none.
Another option is to use Runesmith to hack your doctors and give them a very high Memory attribute, which will prevent skill decay.