XCOM headquarters lay in ruins.
The attack had come without warning, an alien battleship breaking orbit and flying straight towards the top-secret site. Fighters were scrambled to meet it, but it was already too late. Under intense fire from interceptors and ground-based defenses, the battleship dropped off hundreds of soldiers: sectoids, thin men, mutons, even the dreaded cryssalids and cyberdisks. As it finally fell from the sky a burning husk, it gave one last act of defiance, its main guns carving a hole in the mountainside: a path straight into XCOM HQ.
Casualties were high, but contingencies were executed to the letter. Key personnel and equipment were evacuated from the moment the battleship broke orbit, while soldiers and base security held the line in a fighting retreat. As air support from nearby air bases arrived, air superiority was regained and the evacuation began in earnest. While the base was lost, much of XCOMs equipment and personnel was saved, relocated through several US military bases before finally making their way to a backup site, far from prying eyes.
Now begins the process of rebuilding, recruiting, and most importantly, finding out how, exactly, the aliens knew exactly where to strike.Not-So-Beginner Mafia 6
Welcome! Not-So-Beginner Mafia 6 uses the current Beginner's Mafia setup, but lacks the teaching aspect and beginner requirements. Also, LYLO/MYLO end times are handled the way other days are handled.Spoiler: Rules (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Potential Roles (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Role PMs (click to show/hide)
Players:
1. Naturegirl1999
2. IcyTea31
3. dolores
4. TricMagic
5. Pooka
6. kingawsume
7. Questorhank
8. IonMatrix
9. hector13
Replacements:
1.
Not voting: dolores, hector13, IcyTea31, IonMatrix, kingawsume, Naturegirl1999, Pooka, Questorhank, TricMagic
Day One ends on 2019-09-10 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 4 votes.
Bottom of the page Superdorf. For future reference.instead of including it in an actual post like you'd expect someone to do. Were you not intending on posting straight away even though the game has started and you're here?
I, er, have no idea how to unlock a locked thread. I've never had to lock a thread before.Superdorf Could you copy the potential roles and rules list into the OP of this thread so I can check it here without opening the other one?
Nevertheless, the game has begun! In the interest of moving things along swiftly, I've created a fresh thread here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174779)
Apologies. :-X
Superdorf Could you copy the potential roles and rules list into the OP of this thread so I can check it here without opening the other one?Yeah sure! Sorry about the-- ah-- hiccup. :-\
Bottom of the page Superdorf. For future reference.Thanks.
Cop claim in this game would be as soon as I have information.Even with something like an innocent report on a player who's not really under heat? Is the intention to try to force claim/counterclaims to a point or do you actually think it has merit in and of itself?
Why haven’t you posted yet?Because the game started five seconds ago and they're not here
Do you think mass claims are something that should be done early, mid game, or late game? Why?So was your plan to just not ask questions if I didn't single you out to see you ask a question?
Cop should reveal once they've found Mafia in this game.
Cop claim in this game would be as soon as I have information.These are not the same thing my dude
3. dolores: Why such an aggressive start? What are you looking for?Scum. How bout you?
7. Questorhank: No Questions.But why?
8. IonMatrix: Also No Questions.
9. hector13: Who will you be investigating first, second, and third?So they're cops?
2. IcyTea31: Who will you be investigating first, second, and third?
bruh who makes the start of the game a new thread
hector13 you owe me lunch money
Which of these nerds who I haven't played with before (ion, hawk,nature,pooka) should I actually expect conventional play from and which ones am I going to have to wring blood from a stone to get to vote?
IcyTea31 assuming you're scum, would it be wise to anticipate that you'll intentionally disrupt the flow of the game so that it stalls and dies from a lack of activity, a la bullying webadict into chucking a hissy?
Cop claim in this game would be as soon as I have information.Even with something like an innocent report on a player who's not really under heat? Is the intention to try to force claim/counterclaims to a point or do you actually think it has merit in and of itself?
You going to look to counterclaim cop claims if you have no information?
Any reason you decided to post a one line answer instead on it's own without answering my other question, adding commentary, or y'know, asking questions of your own, TricMagic?
To note, doing other stuff. Hence short posts. Here is a longer one.
Also, in case it wasn't clear, Cop should reveal once they've found Mafia in this game. There are no special gimmicks after all.
1. Naturegirl1999: What are the rules of this game by your reckoning?
2. IcyTea31: Who will you be investigating first, second, and third?
3. dolores: Why such an aggressive start? What are you looking for?
4. TricMagic: Me. It is 5:47.
5. Pooka: Strategy for Day 1?
6. kingawsume: Will you be regularly participating this game?
7. Questorhank: No Questions.
8. IonMatrix: Also No Questions.
9. hector13: Who will you be investigating first, second, and third?
I learned that questions are important, that they have to be chosen carefully, and that not posting for extended periods of time is suspicious. Still unsure about the types of questions to ask though
I don’t know what questions to ask.You've played a game before. You've got questions in this thread. You've got my commentary on questions in this thread. You were walked through this in VTM. It's within your power to figure out which questions to ask. Ideally, you should ask questions you want answered, like "are you scum". But you're never going to get people to answer questions like that honestly, so you pretend that's not the question you're asking and instead ask something that means the same thing but which they don't realise does (i.e. something you can compare to your interpretation of their metagame etc.). If you're scum (figuratively or literally) you can ask questions you don't care about the answer to for the sake of convincing observing townies to lynch the player when they give a poor or contradictory response.
doloresGotta mislynch them sometime. Sooner is better than later, eh?
Your focus (beyond me) early on seems to be on the two players I expect will be easiest to mislynch in this game. Why start there?
I learned that questions are important, that they have to be chosen carefully, and that not posting for extended periods of time is suspicious. Still unsure about the types of questions to ask thoughBasically, there are things you want to find out (if you're not scum) so that you can make sure the right people get voted for. Find those things out. You've got the metagame advantage that it's entrenched practice to ask questions so you can just lynch people if they don't answer you when you ask them what you want to find out.
How come IcyTea and I get the same question? Do you expect our answers to differ that much? PPE: ninja'd by dolores. Should I just let you speak for me in future?Yes, but you should ask the question yourself as well so that when I try to push lynches I've got twice as many unanswered questions to quote in giant spoilers.
Naturegirl1999: Did you learn anything in the last game? If so, what, and how do you expect it to help you in this one?Oh shit I didn't realise NG was answering this question.
Questorhank assuming you're the cop, are you the type of person to try and softclaim cop on D1? Assuming you're noncop town, are you the type of perso nto try to softclaim cop on D1?Claiming (of any kind) before you have useful information seems very risky, as it puts a target on your back without any benefit. Unless you're the current lynch target, of course, but in my experience claiming doesn't increase your odds of survival.
Questorhank: I think you're going to be awful. What do you say about that?There's a (not insignificant) chance that I do do terribly. Hopefully I can help the town at least a little before my rather inevitable demise.
Ideally, you should ask questions you want answered, like "are you scum". But you're never going to get people to answer questions like that honestlySo, dolores, are you scum?
So, dolores, are you scum?I already fullclaimed, please pay attention to what people have already said before you ask them questions.
Claiming (of any kind) before you have useful information seems very risky, as it puts a target on your back without any benefit. Unless you're the current lynch target, of course, but in my experience claiming doesn't increase your odds of survival.It's a common perspective for new players to have. I dunno why it keeps cropping up though. Allow me to demonstrate the problem with thinking like this
Questorhank assuming you're the cop, are you the type of person to try and softclaim cop on D1? Assuming you're noncop town, are you the type of perso nto try to softclaim cop on D1?Claiming (of any kind) before you have useful information seems very risky, as it puts a target on your back without any benefit. Unless you're the current lynch target, of course, but in my experience claiming doesn't increase your odds of survival.Questorhank: I think you're going to be awful. What do you say about that?There's a (not insignificant) chance that I do do terribly. Hopefully I can help the town at least a little before my rather inevitable demise.Ideally, you should ask questions you want answered, like "are you scum". But you're never going to get people to answer questions like that honestlySo, dolores, are you scum?
I already fullclaimedI actually did notice, and specifically made note of it, and then forgot immediately. Unvote
Questorhank
are you a vanilla townie?
What makes you so certain you’re going to be killed at some point? Do you expect to be lynched or night-killed?It's certainly possible that I get lynched, as there's no way for my play style to confirm my being town, since there's no other data for comparison. The cop could do it, but it isn't always in the town's interest to out the cop to save a townie.
You also gave something of a non-answer for dolores’ question. Don’t claim unless you’re about to get lynched, but it probably won’t matter even if you do.I would probably try to avoid suspicion in the first place, but that doesn't really help because that's what everyone else is trying to do too. And now that I think about it, claiming to avoid a lynch isn't as deadly as I initially thought, as the jailkeep could keep the claimee safe (although doing this for extended periods is basically just having another townie).
How would you go about avoiding this situation, as a power role?
QuestorhankThe more I think about this the more of a trap it seems.
are you a vanilla townie?
I actually did notice, and specifically made note of it, and then forgot immediately. UnvoteSo you don't find that suspicious, and you're happy to sit with no vote or leads in RVS?
Yes. Although that doesn't gain any information, as denying it would be very scummy, and suggesting other roles puts you at risk of night kill. In addition, claiming town this early could potentially help the mafia narrow down who has a power role (although to confirm it would at least keep them from chancing across one during the night).I just heard something I can't let slide!
Yes. Although that doesn't gain any informationYou're not allowed to say things like this if you don't expect to be able to dig your way out of the hole.
The more I think about this the more of a trap it seems.Gee, you think?
I would probably try to avoid suspicion in the first place, but that doesn't really help because that's what everyone else is trying to do too. And now that I think about it, claiming to avoid a lynch isn't as deadly as I initially thought, as the jailkeep could keep the claimee safe (although doing this for extended periods is basically just having another townie).Or, y'know, people could not believe your claim. Because you haven't softclaimed beforehand, so there's no establishing causality to make you any more or less likely to be the cop than anyone else.
Not voting: IcyTea31, IonMatrix, kingawsume, Naturegirl1999, Pooka, Questorhank, TricMagic
hector13: dolores (1)
Naturegirl1999: hector13 (1)
Day One ends on 2019-10-10 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 4 votes.
IcyTea31 assuming you're scum, would it be wise to anticipate that you'll intentionally disrupt the flow of the game so that it stalls and dies from a lack of activity, a la bullying webadict into chucking a hissy?I find that holding grudges makes it difficult to assess people rationally. However, since you asked: it wouldn't be wise to anticipate that, and you should already know why.
Also, in case it wasn't clear, Cop should reveal once they've found Mafia in this game. There are no special gimmicks after all.If you were the cop, and a townie you knew innocent was one vote away from being lynched, what would you do?
2. IcyTea31: Who will you be investigating first, second, and third?I'll start with everyone at once and see who catches my eye.
IcyTea: At what point would you be bothered by me ignoring you completely?When it would lose me the game. Right now, it wouldn't.
How come IcyTea and I get the same question? Do you expect our answers to differ that much?I'm not surprised. We're practically married at this point.
I don't get why naturegirl is playing the way they are. They're not making mistakes, they're not even at the same table. I need way more content of this sort to try and guess at alignment since it's got such thin correlation.If your purpose is to see what sort of content they make and what sort of questions they ask, why are you controlling what content they make by priming and suggesting them to be deceptive?
But you're never going to -- answer questions like that honestly, so you pretend that's not the question you're asking and instead ask something that means the same thing but which they don't realise does (i.e. something you can compare to your interpretation of their metagame etc.).Emphasis mine. Try not to contaminate your data this early in the game.
If you're scum (figuratively or literally) you can ask questions you don't care about the answer to for the sake of convincing observing townies to lynch the player when they give a poor or contradictory response.
--
You're obviously here a lot. This means you've got the opportunity to do some work, like asking questions which are easy to answer
suggesting other roles puts you at risk of night kill.Do you believe that you being alive is more valuable to the town than the cop being alive? In my opinion, it's a good move for VT's to draw mafia attention to themselves, and thus away from the cop.
In addition, claiming town this early could potentially help the mafiaThen why did you agree to claim? Wouldn't the optimal move have been to dodge the question?
there's no way for my play style to confirm my being townThat's a bold statement to make.
I can't really answer that, since my purpose is most definetly not to see what sort of content they make. I'm open to the possibility of dictating specific types of content to them to have something specific to make commentary on. If they continue to fail to show an interest in the alignments of other players, their lack of engagement and lack of production would suggest that this interest is indeed lacked and the player is, at best, scum, and possibly more likely not ever going to actually engage with the game.I don't get why naturegirl is playing the way they are. They're not making mistakes, they're not even at the same table. I need way more content of this sort to try and guess at alignment since it's got such thin correlation.If your purpose is to see what sort of content they make and what sort of questions they ask, why are you controlling what content they make by priming and suggesting them to be deceptive?
As much as I appreciate the fact that you think that I'd use some sort of covert NLP mindrape stenography to con players into becoming easy lynches, all of the most suspicious parts of that post are there to acknowledge and thereby help me later defend the fact that I'm basically openly powerwolfing as (ostensibly) a town player.QuoteBut you're never going to -- answer questions like that honestly, so you pretend that's not the question you're asking and instead ask something that means the same thing but which they don't realise does (i.e. something you can compare to your interpretation of their metagame etc.).Emphasis mine. Try not to contaminate your data this early in the game.
If you're scum (figuratively or literally) you can ask questions you don't care about the answer to for the sake of convincing observing townies to lynch the player when they give a poor or contradictory response.
--
You're obviously here a lot. This means you've got the opportunity to do some work, like asking questions which are easy to answer
Note: I typed the above before scrolling down to see dolores already sprung the trap...without following it up? Still, please come up with some sort of answers to the above questions.Of course I didn't follow up. I might want to lynch Questor in the future. I've already got the part of the trap that makes them look suspicious intact and preserved. I don't need to push forward with it right now because I don't need to blow my load early and create some artificial pressure to try and squeeze more content out for us to pick apart for crumbs of ill intent. QH needs to put out something productive on their own in order to keep up with the basic standards needed to not draw suspicion. You don't get to accuse me of artificially distorting the types of content that weaker players are producing and then complain that I'm not dictating the terms by which a newer player I have no meta information on should attempt to shift suspicion away from theirself, ICT.
As divisive and petty as this way of putting it out is (I think your making wuba cry was hilarious, if a bit audacious given the ill health of the forum), your answer is both technically sound (I'm so confident in anticipating a certain type of scum game that I reference a discreet example in my opening post) and sensible (you're aware of this and wouldn't make such an obviously unambiguous play). 8/10, minus one point for presentation.IcyTea31 assuming you're scum, would it be wise to anticipate that you'll intentionally disrupt the flow of the game so that it stalls and dies from a lack of activity, a la bullying webadict into chucking a hissy?I find that holding grudges makes it difficult to assess people rationally. However, since you asked: it wouldn't be wise to anticipate that, and you should already know why.
@PookaSee above.
Why haven’t you posted yet?
@PookaDepends on the game itself. For this one, I'd say Day 3. Assuming no serial killers or vigilantes in play (potential roles list say nothing about them), and assuming all lynches and kills go through and target Town, we'd be 7 by Day 2 and 5 by Day 3. Day 3 should be it then; unless the scumteam is 3 players, then we'll have no Day 3 at all; it is very likely the scumteam we're looking for is a two-man team.
Do you think mass claims are something that should be done early, mid game, or late game? Why?
Pooka: Strategy for Day 1?I'd personally be wary of dolores. I have the feeling he's power wolfing and setting up the day to work in his favor. But it is just as plausible that he's a quite aggressive Town, and that would be great to confirm. But as for practical strategy, no claiming on Day 1 please. Better not even leave hints of a power role if you're one. The scum should be kept in the dark.
Pooka: What did you learn about the site meta on B12 in the last game that will help you narrow down your reads list in this one?Not much. Time is stopped on weekends which I can't wrap my head around, the lynching means there is less of a need to rush for the hammer on the deadline, that sort of immediately obvious mechanical stuff. The fact that RVS begins with questions asked to everyone also gives me actual content to respond to and so I feel more invested in the game; I'd like to export some of these things to GOG Mafia at the soonest possible chance. Other than that, there's player meta:
Pooka: For scumhunting, do you prefer logical methods such as action analysis, or social methods such as pressuring?Depends on the circumstances, but given mechanical evidence such as night actions, I'd go for the logical. Social is good too, but you have to know what you're going for and to anticipate the reaction you'll get.
Hey IcyTea, what the fuck is thisThat there is how to get you to explain yourself with minimal obstinacy. As they say, the best way to get the right answer is to give a wrong one.
Of course I didn't follow up. I might want to lynch Questor in the future. I've already got the part of the trap that makes them look suspicious intact and preserved.Though I don't completely understand why you would want to keep an RVS case for later use instead of using it to determine alignment now, this does match with your playstyle in past games. In your experience, has an RVS case ever been a meaningful linchpin of a late game case leading to a lynch, and not just an easily-overturnable "oh, and also this" point?
You don't get to accuse me of artificially distorting the types of content that weaker players are producing and then complain that I'm not dictating the terms by which a newer player I have no meta information on should attempt to shift suspicion away from theirself, ICT.That second part is your words, not mine.
your answer is both technically sound and sensible. 8/10, minus one point for presentation.My answer was a bullshit non-answer. I don't like yes/no RVS questions so I put in some filler to make it even less useful than a single-word "No." and make it look like I'm in your head even though it was literally my first post this game. Still, it created a conversation so it wasn't a total loss on either side.
Assuming no serial killers or vigilantes in playIt's a semi-open setup with several vanilla townies. We know that there are no serial killers, no vigilantes, and exactly two scum. The only part where guessing might matter is which of the three setups we have. Beyond that, outguessing the mod is useless for this game.
it is very likely the scumteam we're looking for is a two-man team.
Given that there are no trackers and watchers
Depends on the circumstances, but given mechanical evidence such as night actions, I'd go for the logical. Social is good too, but you have to know what you're going for and to anticipate the reaction you'll get.This implies that you don't know what to go for with social scumhunting methods. How are you planning to puzzle out scum logically in this game where the presence of vanilla townies lets practically everyone say they didn't do anything on a night?
I’m thinking Delores, according to other players, he might be power wolfing, which I looked up and learned that it means when scum try to turn the game in their favor, however he could also be an aggressive town member.Why are you trusting other players to tell you who's dangerous? How can you be sure that they weren't pointing you to that conclusion by using the 'power wolf' buzzword? Why would you consider an aggressive townie to be a threat to you?
6. kingawsume: Will you be regularly participating this game?
kingawsume: you're the mafia rolecop, how will you narrow down in the thread who to inspect during the night?Whoever seems to be asking enough questions to look like a regular townie, but seems to know the answers before they ask them. Either that, or the suspected townkill/invest.
kingawsume: If we were scum together, what questions would publicly you ask of me on D1?I'd ask "If you we're scum, who'd you want to be scummates with?"
Anything you want to say about that?Quote from: HectorIcyTea: At what point would you be bothered by me ignoring you completely?
When it would lose me the game. Right now, it wouldn't.
Everyone: What's your RVS pick?
5. Pooka: Strategy for Day 1?
I'd ask "If you we're scum, who'd you want to be scummates with?"Would that be the only question?
I'd be RVS at that stage, and the information gathering phase at that. There wouldn't be any real inquiries as to why you and that specific question, as long as you gave a decent enough lie.
IcyTea:I think it speaks for itself. Right now, for various reasons, Hector ignoring me wouldn't lose the game for town.QuoteAnything you want to say about that?Quote from: HectorIcyTea: At what point would you be bothered by me ignoring you completely?
When it would lose me the game. Right now, it wouldn't.
Everyone: What's your RVS pick?Haven't considered, since I intend to minimize time in the RVS. I'm already out of it for some players.
So,IcyTea, how does it feel to be the GM the last game and a player in this game? (Hopefuly this is relevant)Being the GM gave me unique insights into some of the newer players. Rest assured, I will be using the lessons I learned.
IcyTea: At what point would you be bothered by me ignoring you completely?When it would lose me the game. Right now, it wouldn't.QuoteHow come IcyTea and I get the same question? Do you expect our answers to differ that much?I'm not surprised. We're practically married at this point.
I don't get why naturegirl is playing the way they are. They're not making mistakes, they're not even at the same table. I need way more content of this sort to try and guess at alignment since it's got such thin correlation.If your purpose is to see what sort of content they make and what sort of questions they ask, why are you controlling what content they make by priming and suggesting them to be deceptive?QuoteBut you're never going to -- answer questions like that honestly, so you pretend that's not the question you're asking and instead ask something that means the same thing but which they don't realise does (i.e. something you can compare to your interpretation of their metagame etc.).Emphasis mine. Try not to contaminate your data this early in the game.
If you're scum (figuratively or literally) you can ask questions you don't care about the answer to for the sake of convincing observing townies to lynch the player when they give a poor or contradictory response.
--
You're obviously here a lot. This means you've got the opportunity to do some work, like asking questions which are easy to answer
hector13: How would you respond if I said I've got a scum gut read on you?
While dolores can and has spoken for themselves in regards to this, I don't see what you see here.Indeed, that part of the post was a mini-gambit intended to get an emotional (and thus more likely to be honest) reaction out of dolores. Dolores doesn't strike me as the psychologist type, so I doubt there was any truth to my accusation. Hell, priming doesn't even work well as a Mafia strategy since the game itself primes its players so strongly, and suggestion is far less subtle than what I underlined in dolores' post.
I'm not sure what your plan was here. It looks like you're laying groundwork to take out a stronger player. The earlier you start on that, the easier it will be.The earlier I have a feel for the alignments of the most experienced players in the game, the better I know where to take my strategy later. I don't see how my total bullshit would work as a scum strategy, when the whole point is to be called out for making an argument that makes no real sense. How would one go about basing a lynch on something like it?
I wouldn't say anything, since in the hypothetical situations we have set each other I'm ignoring you.Ignoring me having a gut read on you sure went well last time.
While dolores can and has spoken for themselves in regards to this, I don't see what you see here.Indeed, that part of the post was a mini-gambit intended to get an emotional (and thus more likely to be honest) reaction out of dolores. Dolores doesn't strike me as the psychologist type, so I doubt there was any truth to my accusation. Hell, priming doesn't even work well as a Mafia strategy since the game itself primes its players so strongly, and suggestion is far less subtle than what I underlined in dolores' post.QuoteI'm not sure what your plan was here. It looks like you're laying groundwork to take out a stronger player. The earlier you start on that, the easier it will be.The earlier I have a feel for the alignments of the most experienced players in the game, the better I know where to take my strategy later. I don't see how my total bullshit would work as a scum strategy, when the whole point is to be called out for making an argument that makes no real sense. How would one go about basing a lynch on something like it?
QuoteI wouldn't say anything, since in the hypothetical situations we have set each other I'm ignoring you.Ignoring me having a gut read on you sure went well last time.
Ah, the old this-is-so-anti-town-it-must-be-town routine. Having it pointed out means you can't rely on it anymore, so you might as well fall back on cliched defenses, I guess.No, that was an honest question. How on Earth could I possibly lynch someone with an argument that nonsensical?
How were you expecting dolores to respond as town?With or without good faith, respectively. The only things I know for sure on D1 are that I'm town, and that town players don't know I'm town, but scum players do. By painting a target on myself I can find the players who know I'm town. Tells include accepting or rejecting my arguments without engaging with them, trying to flatter me, misrepresenting my arguments, repeating already-refuted arguments, and so on. Town players want to know what the truth is, scum players just want someone, anyone lynched. Because of this, town players tend to start furiously but back down when they figure it out, while scum players tend start cautiously but accelerate when they think they've caught a lynch. In steps:
How were you expecting dolores to respond as scum?
Superdorf: the votecount in the OP says the day will end on 2019-09-10. That day was last month. Do you mean the 9th or 10th of this month?
Not voting: IcyTea31, IonMatrix, kingawsume, Naturegir1999, Pooka, Questorhank
dolores: TricMagic (1)
hector13: dolores (1)
Naturegirl1999: hector13 (1)
Day One ends on 2019-10-10 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 4 votes.
Ah, the old this-is-so-anti-town-it-must-be-town routine. Having it pointed out means you can't rely on it anymore, so you might as well fall back on cliched defenses, I guess.No, that was an honest question. How on Earth could I possibly lynch someone with an argument that nonsensical?
QuoteHow were you expecting dolores to respond as town?With or without good faith, respectively.
How were you expecting dolores to respond as scum?
no claiming on Day 1 please. Better not even leave hints of a power role if you're one. The scum should be kept in the dark.Just falseclaim lmao
That's about it for now.No questions of your own?
Delores Aren’t you worried about lynching town?Gotta lynch someone. There's a finite amount of time in which to find someone that's likely scum. Whether or not we do that and have a good candidate, we're gonna lynch the closest thing we've got.
In your experience, has an RVS case ever been a meaningful linchpin of a late game case leading to a lynch, and not just an easily-overturnable "oh, and also this" point?I wouldn't so much call it RVS but I'm trying to build towards having the option of a post like this if Questorhank doesn't start doing work. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163788.msg7444564#msg7444564)
My answer was a bullshit non-answer. I don't like yes/no RVS questions so I put in some filler to make it even less useful than a single-word "No." and make it look like I'm in your head even though it was literally my first post this game. Still, it created a conversation so it wasn't a total loss on either side.That is what a 7/10 RVS response is. My question was a bullshit non-question which dictates it's own answer.
No, that was an honest question. How on Earth could I possibly lynch someone with an argument that nonsensical?Really easily, in my experience.
With or without good faith, respectively.How the fuck do you expect to determine that, mr. Sarte?
You have said your argument was deliberately nonsense; could you describe to me how someone would engage with a deliberately nonsensical argument in good faith - fairly, openly, honestly - and also in bad faith - a duplicitous, backstabbing ma'fa'?It's not even that. Regardless of my alignment, it's in my interest to have the option to lynch ICT (and hector) in the future (unless we're a scum team lmao). I'm always going to try to leave an option open to use the question as the basis for pressure in the future, and it's unlikely to be wasted since the only players being as straightforwardly dishonest in their practice are ICT and myself.
- leafsnail mafia 101-I really shouldn't call it mafia 101 even if these are general truths that a lot of people hold, so I've edited my naming of it to better reflect the outdated and inaccurate nature of those methods and thoughts.
By painting a target on myself I can find the players who know I'm town.So your plan is to deliberatly make it easy to lynch you, and see which players are not on your team (are scum) by determining which players don't try to lynch you?
Everyone: What's your RVS pick?We're out of RVS. Try again.
dolores, how do you feel about the assumptions other people have made about you?hector & ICT assume that I'm comfortable playing the way that I am and serve as a useful comparison for other players to make themselves.
Naturegirl, you literally just posted the same thing as TricMagic about dolores's identity. Why?Tric hadn't posted since his OP in RVS
dolores. Believe it or not, but trying to lead town around is a stratagy some players use. And this type of commentry kinda reminds of someone else that isn't on this forum.Someone pretty bad at mafia I guess if they're getting caught and lynched for being active
I wouldn't so much call it RVS (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163788.msg7444564#msg7444564)Whoops, guess I was wrong
I'm mostly pointing at 4maskwolf because of RVS, where his responses to (webadict & doll's) questions sat poorly with me and the lack of follow up (or initial impact) from his own confirmed that he wasn't engaged in the daygame. He hasn't since become engaged, even when I poked him on this. His play is ideal for scum and useless for town (outside of the fact that it got him caught); we're losing nothing if we lynch him.
kingawsumeWhich is funny, because you nev-
You didn't answer my RVS question. Any reason for that?
kingawsume assuming you're the cop, are you the type of person to try and softclaim cop on D1? Assuming you're noncop town, are you the type of personto try to softclaim cop on D1?Oh. Oops. Didn't see it.
I didn't say you were going to be able to lynch dolores solely off that, I suggested you were planting seeds to reap later, in a manner similar to what dolores said they would do with Questorhank if they didn't step up.The way I see it, this implies one of three arguments: "IcyTea31 and dolores are of the same alignment", "what IcyTea31 is doing isn't alignment indicative" or "what IcyTea31 is doing is scummy, but what dolores is doing isn't, because of their chosen targets."
The difference between the two, as I'm sure you will ask, is that dolores won't need to rely on an argument made in the early goings of the game should Questorhank prove to be less than stellar, whereas dolores is going to be a tough nut to crack and you'll need to pull out all the stops to lynch 'em, hence the airing of my suspicions.
You have said your argument was deliberately nonsense; could you describe to me how someone would engage with a deliberately nonsensical argument in good faith - fairly, openly, honestly - and also in bad faith - a duplicitous, backstabbing ma'fa'?When someone with good faith reads an argument, their thoughts turn outwards to 'why?': why are they making this argument. When someone with bad faith reads an argument, their thoughts turn inwards to 'how': how can I use this argument. It's all about whether they actually want to hear what I have to say; as noted before, town wants to know what my alignment is, scum already knows. The difference for nonsensical arguments is that town players usually back off the argument itself when they realize little useful information lies that way, and turn to the player instead.
I wouldn't so much call it RVS but I'm trying to build towards having the option of a post like this if Questorhank doesn't start doing work. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163788.msg7444564#msg7444564)I see. Do you believe you couldn't have made that argument if you hadn't challenged them to be active earlier? Your point in that post was that 4maskwolf hadn't scumhunted enough. Couldn't you have made that point even without the earlier case?
If your argument doesn't make a clear point it's hard to engage with satisfactorily and the type of thinking that forms the argument must be definition inform the response (unless they refuse to engage with the question) which is going to make the response look suspicious even in the best case where it contains no faults other than those inherited from the question.Is the response "I don't understand what your point is, please clarify" a suspicious response? An experienced player capable of humility should find it easy to avoid that trap.
How the fuck do you expect to determine that, mr. Sarte?As I have done in past games, and how I posted clear numbered steps to do.
So your plan is to deliberatly make it easy to lynch you, and see which players are not on your team (are scum) by determining which players don't try to lynch you?The opposite: the players who entertain the thought that they might not have determined my alignment yet are most likely town.
Regardless of my alignment, it's in my interest to see you lynched. The correlation between 'easy to lynch' and 'should be lynched (is scum or antitown)' is generally pretty high, and the only real problem with that methodology is it's easier to lynch antitown than it is to lynch real scum.It's not in your interest to see me lynched if we're both town, unless you believe my behaviour is actively counterproductive to the town's goal. Is that so?
The only players who 'know you're town' are the players with the strongest motivation to lynch you.Exactly. The whole point is to determine alignment by determining how motivated players are to lynch me. Town wants to lynch scum, scum wants to lynch me.
I can't see how you could think this was a good idea unless your actual motivation is totally unrelated to your stated motivation and is more along the lines of trying to drag me into a hole of suspicion with you and then trying to climb out without my noticing.Most likely not, since I've used this strategy before in games you were not part of.
ICT assume that I -- serve as a useful comparison for other players to make themselves.I don't think I've made that assumption. When have I compared anyone to you?
Would that be the only question?
Are you really satisfied my answer? I only really reiterated my point.QuoteAnything you want to say about that?I think it speaks for itself. Right now, for various reasons, Hector ignoring me wouldn't lose the game for town.
Is this some kind of wierd bait that I'm interupting your use of?QuoteICT assume that I -- serve as a useful comparison for other players to make themselves.I don't think I've made that assumption. When have I compared anyone to you?
hector & ICT assume that I'm comfortable playing the way that I am and serve as a useful comparison for other players to make themselves.The reactions of the two of you, having specific experience with myself and a metagame which endorses this playstyle, are something produced by your presumption that I might play this way. Other players can compare their own reactions to your (theoretically better informed) reaction without me having to specifically spell out my reasoning in every case.
If I was scum, why would I lynch and not nightkill dolores?Why would you not lynch me? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but this is the essence of bad!scum reasoning. Why would you ever not want a strong town player (who you know is town in this scenario) to be more free from suspicion than they could be, even if you didn't expect to manage to lynch them? The more agressively I use questionable tactics like deliberatly setting up lynches the easier it would be to drive a lynch against me, and since I'm playing fairly uncautiously it seems reasonable to suggest scum!ICT would try to push a lynch on me. If you nightkilled hector you wouldn't even have someone to point it out the next day and champion the counter case. This is the laziest and worst kind of WIFOM and I think worse of you not just as a player as much as in alignment for having brought it up.
And again, honest question: how could that argument be used as 'seeds to reap' against a strong player?I literally gave you an example, although the alignments were reversed.
In my experience, having a huge pile of weak evidence against someone over a couple strong arguments only serves as an intimidation tactic. I would argue that scum!dolores would have more to gain than scum!IcyTea31 from their respective arguments, because there is hope of intimidation working against QH.Sometimes a huge pile of weak evidence is actually a huge pile of individual parts of one piece of extremely strong evidence. You can imagine that if you were able to convince people that I wasn't doing anything to try to divine people's alignments and had continued to set up future lynches, it might be easy to justify a lynch against me based off of that.
When someone with good faith reads an argument, their thoughts turn outwards to 'why?': why are they making this argument. When someone with bad faith reads an argument, their thoughts turn inwards to 'how': how can I use this argument. It's all about whether they actually want to hear what I have to say; as noted before, town wants to know what my alignment is, scum already knows. The difference for nonsensical arguments is that town players usually back off the argument itself when they realize little useful information lies that way, and turn to the player instead.What if, you might find this radical, you did both.
I see. Do you believe you couldn't have made that argument if you hadn't challenged them to be active earlier? Your point in that post was that 4maskwolf hadn't scumhunted enough. Couldn't you have made that point even without the earlier case?But he might of pretended to scumhunt if I poked the dog too early, and I'm not nessecarily so astute that I wouldn't be fooled into accepting his artificial activity as legitimate. If I maintain the position 'this guy really seems like he's scum' and never give him a specific out by requesting some kind of content, it becomes far easier to achieve the lynch in the future if they, being scum, fail to produce any kind of content. If they weren't scum, one would assume that they would later produce content on their own. It's certainly true that you can alignment test by asking people to do things while they're under pressure and then seeing if they also produce any original content due to a legitimate interest in the ongoings of the game (i.e. because they are town and do want to find scum), but it's much harder to achieve the lynch from the negative position (they only respond to the pressure and do nothing else) since a lot of bad!town players will do just that.
Is the response "I don't understand what your point is, please clarify" a suspicious response?Yeah, because it slows the game down. "I've got no idea where you were going with this but here's some bullshit in response" is much better because you still get the idea that they could rephrase the question for clarity across, but you also generate content. The idea that not giving a bad response is more important than getting content out onto the page where other players can see it is deeply scummy, ICT. Why are you so concerned about how you look? Surely if you give a forthright response and let slip things like your identity, that can only be good for you, right ICT?
An experienced player capable of humility should find it easy to avoid that trap.Alas, I am neither of those things
As an aside, my original argument did have a clear point: "you are using psychological tricks to mind control other players into posting scummy things." And that's the point you engaged with. Good job.Ironically, I basically lied about the fact that I'm basically doing just that. Just not in the conversation that you were quoting.
The opposite: the players who entertain the thought that they might not have determined my alignment yet are most likely town.Allow me to rephrase that: regardless of my alignment, it's in my interest to have the option to lynch you (unless I know that you're on my team, but if we were the scum team we should possibly do this anyway to fuck with hector). I won't know your alignment until you're dead or I inspect you, so that's not a fact that's going to change any time soon. It is absolutely in my interest to begin the building blocks of an icytea lynch and establish them as sensibly as I can into something usable.QuoteRegardless of my alignment, it's in my interest to see you lynched. The correlation between 'easy to lynch' and 'should be lynched (is scum or antitown)' is generally pretty high, and the only real problem with that methodology is it's easier to lynch antitown than it is to lynch real scum.It's not in your interest to see me lynched if we're both town, unless you believe my behaviour is actively counterproductive to the town's goal. Is that so?
Exactly. The whole point is to determine alignment by determining how motivated players are to lynch me. Town wants to lynch scum, scum wants to lynch me.Cute, but you're not that important. Scum might have a weak interest in lynching stronger players, but generally you would think that they're happy with any lynch which isn't them or their scumbuddy.
The reactions of the two of you, having specific experience with myself and a metagame which endorses this playstyle, are something produced by your presumption that I might play this way. Other players can compare their own reactions to your (theoretically better informed) reaction without me having to specifically spell out my reasoning in every case.Ah. I parsed the sentence as "ICT and Hector assume that I'm comfortable and that I serve as...". Instead, you meant "Hector and ICT assume that I'm comfortable and thus they serve as...".
Why would you not lynch me?Because it would be riskier than the obvious alternatives.
Why would you ever not want a strong town player (who you know is town in this scenario) to be more free from suspicion than they could be, even if you didn't expect to manage to lynch them?Casting doubt on someone is separate from leading a full-on lynch against them, even if the first is part of the second.
I literally gave you an example, although the alignments were reversed.Sure, but here's a big question: why are you answering questions I asked of hector?
I'm suspicious of questorhank. He jumps on claims he shouldn't for the stated reason of protecting himself and doesn't seem very concerned about ideas like 'stoping the cop from getting nightkilled'. I can imagine I'm more likely to want to lynch him in the future than, say, pooka, who's just awful at the game and not here enough and so reads relatively neutrally on the town/scum index.Now these are some interesting statements. Based on them: Questorhank. They still have some pending questions from me, so I'll wait for the answers and gladly unvote if I like them. But before then, I believe their lynch would be informative about a number of players, including dolores, hector, TricMagic and me.
Using a faulty argument that someone makes by accident against them is not something exclusive to the scum, my dude. If anything, I'd say that town have more reason to do so since they have no alternatives to persuading the town into voting a certain way if they want to complete their objectives.I agree. But that doesn't answer the point I'm making. The point isn't that players use faulty arguments against each other, it's that town players care more about knowing their target's alignment than scum players.
I can do this and still think 'why would ICT say this dumb shit".I think there is a matter of definition here. Would you say you are currently trying to lynch me? I wouldn't say so, even if you are collecting ammo for a later lynch attempt.
You don't get to recontextualize my attemptsNot everything is about you, friend.
But he might of pretended to scumhunt if I poked the dog too early, and I'm not nessecarily so astute that I wouldn't be fooled into accepting his artificial activity as legitimate.This doesn't answer my question at all...
If they weren't scum, one would assume that they would later produce content on their own....but this does. The challenge to produce content wasn't necessary, then?
"I've got no idea where you were going with this but here's some bullshit in response" is much better because you still get the idea that they could rephrase the question for clarity across, but you also generate content.Ahem.
That there is how to get you to explain yourself with minimal obstinacy. As they say, the best way to get the right answer is to give a wrong one.
The idea that not giving a bad response is more important than getting content out onto the page where other players can see it is deeply scummy, ICT. Why are you so concerned about how you look? Surely if you give a forthright response and let slip things like your identity, that can only be good for you, right ICT?Considering that giving a bad response in order to get content out onto the page with no concern for how I look and with intention of mutually scrutinizing alignments with other players is exactly what I've done...
Allow me to rephrase that: regardless of my alignment, it's in my interest to have the option to lynch you (unless I know that you're on my team, but if we were the scum team we should possibly do this anyway to fuck with hector).I think I understand where our greatest differences lie. Your playstyle doesn't consider investigation and convincing others to be separate loops of play. You wish to establish your cases as early in the game as possible to give them credence, even if you're not yet sure if your targets are scum. I prefer to collect information first and only then face the scum head-on, so as to not accidentally mislead the rest of the town. In other words, in the late game, you want people to listen to you even if you have to ascertain your target's guilt at the last second, whereas I want to know for sure my target is scum, even if I have to fight tooth and nail to make sure others listen to me. I'll have to experiment with your style some time.
--
It is absolutely in my interest to begin the building blocks of an icytea lynch and establish them as sensibly as I can into something usable.
I won't know your alignment until you're dead or I inspect you, so that's not a fact that's going to change any time soon.You believe that I'm going to survive for a while.
Cute, but you're not that important. Scum might have a weak interest in lynching stronger players, but generally you would think that they're happy with any lynch which isn't them or their scumbuddy.And that's where painting a target on myself comes in.
Why not?QuoteI literally gave you an example, although the alignments were reversed.Sure, but here's a big question: why are you answering questions I asked of hector?
Why not?Because you already answered it yourself, and could have spent the time doing that again instead on making sure you understood my followup question so you wouldn't only answer it by accident.
You get an insight into my alignment from it, don't you?A far weaker insight than from answering the questions actually directed at you.
There's no situation in which my being able to put the entirety of what I know about the state of the game (re: alignments etc.) into the thread could ever be a bad thing.There is, namely situations where it's important to receive data from a player not contaminated by other players' influence. Want it or not, answering questions directed at others affects how they themselves respond to them, casting doubt on the answers' reliability. In other words, it gives the target something to hide behind from the pressure.
Leading town players around is a very valid tactic.Leading town is also a very effective town strategy. I don't think trying to take charge is alignment-indicative enough to serve as a case on its own. (If anything, a high level of engagement is often a towntell.) Do you have any further reasons for your vote?
More importantly, which of you are scum, if any?I'm currently leaning town for dolores (strong scumhunting, though there's a point I'll have to talk about once I get back on my computer) and scum for hector (quality and honesty of arguments against me are lower than expected), but the discussion continues.
Not voting: IonMatrix, kingawsume, Naturegir1999, Pooka, Questorhank
dolores: TricMagic (1)
IonMatrix: dolores (1)
Naturegirl1999: hector13 (1)
Questorhank: IcyTea31 (1)
Day One ends on 2019-10-10 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 4 votes.
Kingawsume: what are you thoughts on this wall-fight between me, hector and dolores? Also, you missed my followup:Yup. I'll elaborate on the wall fight later in this post.Would that be the only question?
kingawsumeI'm leaning towards you, Questor, and Icy. Top billing goes towards Icy and you. I feel as if his wall of texts (alongside yours) is a defensive tactic to distract town, or obfuscate the game.
Who's your top pick for scum as it stands right now? Why?
There are at least three people you could point suspicion at already, so you've got no excuse for not having a decent response to this if you're going to take the time to make jokes.
Not really a great trend of leaving questions unanswered kingawsume
kingawsume, why aren't you engaging beyond a few posts?I'm leaving the scumhunting to the scum/people who are a whole lot better at it than I am. And I'm usually this terse anyway.
Why only one? Why that question in particular?QuoteWould that be the only question?Yup. I'll elaborate on the wall fight later in this post.
I feel as if his wall of texts (alongside yours) is a defensive tactic to distract town, or obfuscate the game.What's there to distract from? What's there to obfuscate? It's not like many other players have done much. The purpose of text walls is to thoroughly dissect complex arguments. How else could I respond to a post with like 15 separate talking points?
I'm leaving the scumhunting to the scum/people who are a whole lot better at it than I am. And I'm usually this terse anyway.No. If you don't scumhunt, you will never learn anything useful, will never figure out who's scum, and will never be able to defend yourself from town and scum both when they come after your blood. Refusing to scumhunt is decidedly anti-town.
IcyTea, dolores: Why are you two so focused one another? All I see is what's been stated above.Because the name of the game is that when you're spoken to, you respond. Dolores has been speaking to me, and I have been speaking to them. I would like to speak with all of the players in this game, but only hector and dolores have been responding properly so far.
What's the endgame?The endgame is that we figure out each other's alignments and act accordingly.
All I see are two players, one (or both) lying through their teeth,Here's a thing to consider: what if we're both speaking the truth?
and having gone nowhere.It has gone much farther than your engagement with anyone. How do you plan to win this game?
there's a point I'll have to talk about once I get back on my computerAlright, dolores. What the hell was this?
Now here's the part which people don't think about; this is an excellent method for finding town. Scum don't make use of that because they know who isn't in the mafia, and can generally assume that other players are town. But I can use this method as town. I can say, "oh, Hector and IcyTea think that I'm town, but they've got some things they want to ask me about". Then if you follow up on it, I can decide whether or not you're making a genuine case. Scum should want me lynched, but town should want an explanation. Conversely, if you don't follow up on it, and you do acknowledge that it's there, that's useful for me as well.This is exactly my current argument and the method I've described, as posted by you seven months ago. What has changed so much since then? Granted, we were both scum in that game, but you take pride in using the same playstyle as any alignment, no?
I didn't say you were going to be able to lynch dolores solely off that, I suggested you were planting seeds to reap later, in a manner similar to what dolores said they would do with Questorhank if they didn't step up.The way I see it, this implies one of three arguments: "IcyTea31 and dolores are of the same alignment", "what IcyTea31 is doing isn't alignment indicative" or "what IcyTea31 is doing is scummy, but what dolores is doing isn't, because of their chosen targets."
The difference between the two, as I'm sure you will ask, is that dolores won't need to rely on an argument made in the early goings of the game should Questorhank prove to be less than stellar, whereas dolores is going to be a tough nut to crack and you'll need to pull out all the stops to lynch 'em, hence the airing of my suspicions.
I don't know if I and dolores are of the same alignment. Do you?
If what I'm doing isn't alignment-indicative, why do you say it makes you suspicious?
I'm not sure what your plan was here. It looks like you're laying groundwork to take out a stronger player. The earlier you start on that, the easier it will be.
If I was scum, why would I lynch and not nightkill dolores?
And again, honest question: how could that argument be used as 'seeds to reap' against a strong player? In my experience, having a huge pile of weak evidence against someone over a couple strong arguments only serves as an intimidation tactic. I would argue that scum!dolores would have more to gain than scum!IcyTea31 from their respective arguments, because there is hope of intimidation working against QH.
If none of the above, what exactly is your argument here?
QuoteYou have said your argument was deliberately nonsense; could you describe to me how someone would engage with a deliberately nonsensical argument in good faith - fairly, openly, honestly - and also in bad faith - a duplicitous, backstabbing ma'fa'?The difference for nonsensical arguments is that town players usually back off the argument itself when they realize little useful information lies that way, and turn to the player instead.
As I have done in past games, and how I posted clear numbered steps to do.
QuoteSo your plan is to deliberatly make it easy to lynch you, and see which players are not on your team (are scum) by determining which players don't try to lynch you?The opposite: the players who entertain the thought that they might not have determined my alignment yet are most likely town.
QuoteRegardless of my alignment, it's in my interest to see you lynched. The correlation between 'easy to lynch' and 'should be lynched (is scum or antitown)' is generally pretty high, and the only real problem with that methodology is it's easier to lynch antitown than it is to lynch real scum.It's not in your interest to see me lynched if we're both town, unless you believe my behaviour is actively counterproductive to the town's goal. Is that so?
QuoteThe only players who 'know you're town' are the players with the strongest motivation to lynch you.Exactly. The whole point is to determine alignment by determining how motivated players are to lynch me. Town wants to lynch scum, scum wants to lynch me.
QuoteI can't see how you could think this was a good idea unless your actual motivation is totally unrelated to your stated motivation and is more along the lines of trying to drag me into a hole of suspicion with you and then trying to climb out without my noticing.Most likely not, since I've used this strategy before in games you were not part of.
dolores already pretty much said what needed to be said here. It's not how strongly you start in mafia, but how strongly you finish.That's not how I understood dolores' argument. How about you restate it, in your own words?
If we were going by what I would do in scum!you's position, this isn't a D1 lynch. Maybe midway through D2 you point out the deliberately nonsensical argument you made as the start of your suspicions against dolores, and that you have found some other things that dolores has done that support that assertion. Boom, now you have a case against dolores.An interesting hypothetical. You do understand that what I've said so far has made doing that impossible?
Frankly, what I'm doing is trying to figure out what your motivation was for your deliberately nonsensical argument. The reasons you have presented so far don't make sense.Not an answer to the question presented. What was the meaning of your argument when you said that dolores wouldn't need to rely on an early argument to lynch QH, but that I would to lynch dolores? Finish the sentence: "IcyTea31 is scummy because..."
What do you mean here by "turn to the player instead"?As noted before, I mean asking "why is this player asking this question" instead of "what is the answer to this question".
you go on to say that only scum want to lynch youTown players want to figure out whether they should lynch me, scum players want to lynch me. I have enough faith in this town to figure out that I really am town and thus not someone who should be lynched.
I'm struggling to understand what you expect painting a target on your back will achieve for the town, while simultaneously saying only scum will respond to it.That's not what I'm saying. I expect town and scum both to respond when I attract attention. It's in the nature of that response where I win.
I mean, the point of a target is to be shot at, yes? So when people start shooting at the target and then the target jumps up and says "haha, I'm not a real target, you're all really bad at shooting" it does raise many questions.A good person would then stop shooting at the target and start pondering those questions, while a bad person might keep shooting, wouldn't you agree?
... this isn't paint by numbers, guy.No, but if paint by numbers is too difficult a game for you, I don't know what to tell you. I find it implausible that you would still not understand at all what I was trying to do after I presented the answer to you in so simple and clear terms.
If dolores and I are not trying to figure out your alignment, what are we doing by engaging with you?For example, trying to convince other players that I'm scum. There are many reasons to engage with someone, some more townish and some scummier than others.
dolores and I are the only ones engaging with this. Does that mean we're both scum or both town?Not my argument. My argument is the clear counterexample against the statement "regardless of my alignment, it's in my interest to see you lynched," namely that if dolores is town and knows that I'm town, it's not in their interest to see me lynched.
Again, this doesn't make sense. You paint a target on yourself, which attracts attention, but then you say it was bullshit, and... expect the attention to disappear?I don't need the attention to disappear, but I expect that a town player with a town read on me is likely to focus on investigating other people.
See, dolores posted something about this in the mafia theory thread years ago. Basically, the idea was that during RVS you can get away with doing some off-the-wall bananas play in an effort to get people to respond and provide content so long as once it is clear your out of RVS you claim as such and stop, and actually start being sensible.We've played together several times as varied alignments. You should know by now that I don't normally present nonsensical arguments. Maybe it's not outside the realm of possibility, but it requires an unreasonable number of assumptions to reach the conclusion you have reached.
The problem with what you've done here is that it's not outside the realm of possibility that you would present this argument normally, which is why the reasoning behind it doesn't make sense.
Alright, dolores. What the hell was this?I did, seven months ago. Exposure to that game and to high level analysis (i.e. guides/theory) arising from other metagames has made me reconsider that position. Playing as scum I've not been using my leeway the same way I should; as town, I can get away with egregious methods of forcing lynches etc. on the strength of my position. As scum, I could also use my leeway to literally disrupt and ruin town efforts; the naive idea of not contaminating the metagame for the sake of offering the potential of future growth was a result of not thinking through the ways in which that would limit my game and the resulting lack of growth and, worse, mental blinds it would produce. The quality of your play in particular is a big source of this change in views, so if you want you could say I've taken a leaf out of your book.Now here's the part which people don't think about; this is an excellent method for finding town. Scum don't make use of that because they know who isn't in the mafia, and can generally assume that other players are town. But I can use this method as town. I can say, "oh, Hector and IcyTea think that I'm town, but they've got some things they want to ask me about". Then if you follow up on it, I can decide whether or not you're making a genuine case. Scum should want me lynched, but town should want an explanation. Conversely, if you don't follow up on it, and you do acknowledge that it's there, that's useful for me as well.This is exactly my current argument and the method I've described, as posted by you seven months ago. What has changed so much since then? Granted, we were both scum in that game, but you take pride in using the same playstyle as any alignment, no?
Emphasis mine. I made no implications, you made inferences. Consequently, your questions here are invalid.Boo fucking hoo, answer the question. Did you miss the part where all of this content is stemming from a conversation that ended like this:
How come I gave that answer and ICT agreed with the further implication that that was the answer he was fishing for from town!dolores from the start, and yet here you are right after that refusing to engage ("But dolores, I posted about it!" Yeah, but you were a defensive little bitch and did as much as you could to avoid getting the fallacious cases associated with yourself. Why are you so insistent on maintaining a clear position over putting out content? Surely strong players like ICT and myself, if not also everyone else, could see your alignment from a forthright engagement and use that to defend your position from any shade accidentally brought on by engaging with loaded questions.) with a question just because you didn't like it's implications.Is the response "I don't understand what your point is, please clarify" a suspicious response?Yeah, because it slows the game down. "I've got no idea where you were going with this but here's some bullshit in response" is much better because you still get the idea that they could rephrase the question for clarity across, but you also generate content. The idea that not giving a bad response is more important than getting content out onto the page where other players can see it is deeply scummy, ICT. Why are you so concerned about how you look? Surely if you give a forthright response and let slip things like your identity, that can only be good for you, right ICT?
The second half of the third part is further nonsense, my read on dolores presently has a lot to do with my read on youI'm sure there was no way to cut up the quote to make this part easier to understand, right hector?
though them answering questions directed at me and pressuring you could easily be them buddying.Why is it that when I lay the foundations for lynching ICT, and freely admit that I'm doing so several times in a conversation which we know you are following, it's either town-read or seen as buddying (something like "surely dolores is pretending to think ICT is scum to get close to me who isn't the same alignment as ICT", I assume, which isn't a good position to hold this early in the game, my dude), but when he starts to do the same for me (or you), it's suspicious, or at least 'deliberatly nonsensical' (anti-town, I guess)
The first half of the third part is correct, in that the very first thing I said in our interaction was:I'm not sure what your plan was here. It looks like you're laying groundwork to take out a stronger player. The earlier you start on that, the easier it will be.So again, no implication, this is a direct statement that I thought you were trying to lay the foundations for taking out dolores later.
This leads into:Why are you so ginger to bring up nightroles? Is there something you don't want us to know, hector13? Are you the cop? Are you scum? Both, maybe?
Secondly, and I'm not particularly happy to have to bring this up publicly, you are aware there is a 2/3 chance of there being a jailkeeper in the game. A sensible jailkeeper this early in the game is going to use their power to protect one of their strong town reads. You also know that dolores starts the game strongly as any alignment, and is going to be among the top town reads of enough players that there is the strong possibility that they get protected N1, so even if scum!you tried to NK dolores, you are far from guaranteed success.
And again, honest question: how could that argument be used as 'seeds to reap' against a strong player? In my experience, having a huge pile of weak evidence against someone over a couple strong arguments only serves as an intimidation tactic. I would argue that scum!dolores would have more to gain than scum!IcyTea31 from their respective arguments, because there is hope of intimidation working against QH.dolores already pretty much said what needed to be said here. It's not how strongly you start in mafia, but how strongly you finish.
Also, please don't put words in my mouth, it's very annoying.
He's alignment testing me by seeing if I engage with him even when he's playing dirty, and he's setting up a future dolores lynch. As I've said before, both of these things are in his interest just as both of these things are in my interest in the reverse.
Frankly, what I'm doing is trying to figure out what your motivation was for your deliberately nonsensical argument. The reasons you have presented so far don't make sense.
See, dolores posted something about this in the mafia theory thread years ago. Basically, the idea was that during RVS you can get away with doing some off-the-wall bananas play in an effort to get people to respond and provide content so long as once it is clear your out of RVS you claim as such and stop, and actually start being sensible.
Also, please don't put words in my mouth, it's very annoying.In my first game as doll I did this and echoed that it was a good idea after the game, but that doesn't mean that I wasn't wrong. You shouldn't claim 'we're out of RVS' and stop making plays. Just do actual work and pull yourself along by the force of your investigation. Tell Leafsnail to go fuck himself if he keeps trying to lynch you after posting 1/10 as much useful content. 'It was RVS' isn't a valid defence, but that doesn't matter because 'town don't lie' isn't a valid criticism.
The problem with what you've done here is that it's not outside the realm of possibility that you would present this argument normally, which is why the reasoning behind it doesn't make sense.Huh? "Your method is so questionable you must be doing it for a particular reason as part of an early-game low-information play, but it's also something that you might normally do"
Well, I’m out guys. Shouldn’t have joined the game in the first place. Too much effort to be treated like a cunt, and watch others be treated the same for trying to play.You shouldn't be surprised of the emotional baggage associated with the game. I try my best to maintain detachment and to stay respectful of others. It's never my goal to utterly crush a player, only to defeat their arguments for the sake of the game. Were my recent comments unreasonable, all things considered?
Well, I’m out guys. Shouldn’t have joined the game in the first place.Well that was a fast game. Still a fairly interesting run, if limited in it's scope.
Questorhank: Conditional town/infolynch. If their answer to my questions is what I expect, they're likely town. But if they don't answer, I believe they are currently the most informative lynch for reasons left unstated.I really don't like this. Besides the fact that I don't agree (my gut read on Qh tastes like scum) and they're displaying the wrong priorities for town, I really dislike the idea both of 'information lynches' in general (I don't really believe in them at all) and especially ones where you don't outline what you could follow up on them with.
I'm not at all satisfied with this many nulls and neutrals. Everyone: Since I likely won't post any scary walls until much later, how about you use the breathing room to make something of yourselves?Everyone (besides hector/icytea)
Well, I’m out guys. Shouldn’t have joined the game in the first place. Too much effort to be treated like a cunt, and watch others be treated the same for trying to play.I've seen too many legit real appeals to emotion on B12, which I have traditionally bought into because I didn't want games to die and I'm not too bothered about the unethical nature of this kind of emotional blackmail to chase the alternative, to bother reacting to this.
Not voting: IonMatrix, kingawsume, Naturegir1999, Pooka, Questorhank
dolores: TricMagic (1)
hector13: dolores (1)
Naturegirl1999: hector13 (1)
Questorhank: IcyTea31 (1)
Votes to extend: dolores (1)
Day One ends on 2019-10-10 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 4 votes.
Also, in case it wasn't clear, Cop should reveal once they've found Mafia in this game. There are no special gimmicks after all.If you were the cop, and a townie you knew innocent was one vote away from being lynched, what would you do?I would reveal that I am cop and reveal the innocence of a town member so we don’t lynch fellow townies.QuoteWhat did you edit out? Where is the entire quote?QuoteICT assume that I -- serve as a useful comparison for other players to make themselves.I don't think I've made that assumption. When have I compared anyone to you?
This implies that you don't know what to go for with social scumhunting methods. How are you planning to puzzle out scum logically in this game where the presence of vanilla townies lets practically everyone say they didn't do anything on a night?By putting together the little pieces we've got to form a picture, if incomplete, of a night. While it is there are vanilla townies, the setup does have some power roles going on, and unless at least one of each has been lynched, it is safe to assume some power roles are left in play. If the mass claims all give us vanilla townies and we're reasonably sure no power roles are left, we start worrying. A slip or two may give us an idea of who is scum.
Pooka, why do I not care about asking you questions?That's a question directed to me, so one can say you care about asking me questions, in which case the question itself is paradoxical.
No questions of your own?I didn't have an idea what to ask and was getting tired while writing the post. Now that we're on the final day, I think it is THE time to start asking the questions.
Spoiler: In other words, something like this: (click to show/hide)
Pooka, I found dolores’ read list? Hope it helpsSpoiler: In other words, something like this: (click to show/hide)
EBWOP/addendum:Well, I’m out guys. Shouldn’t have joined the game in the first place. Too much effort to be treated like a cunt, and watch others be treated the same for trying to play.I've seen too many legit real appeals to emotion on B12, which I have traditionally bought into because I didn't want games to die and I'm not too bothered about the unethical nature of this kind of emotional blackmail to chase the alternative, to bother reacting to this.
You didn't even show the good faith to actually bold out or anything like that. If you think I'm being too harsh, you can blame tiruin and flabort and everyone else who legit real did this shit as scum and then continued to play the game after garnering unwarranted town sympathy.
The idea that not giving a bad response is more important than getting content out onto the page where other players can see it is deeply scummy, ICT. Why are you so concerned about how you look? Surely if you give a forthright response and let slip things like your identity, that can only be good for you, right ICT?My gut simply doesn't agree with the sudden flip-flop. I thought I had you cornered with your only out being to admit to hypocrisy, and then just...nothing. Here's a thought: I consider hypocrisy to be an anti-scumtell (not quite a towntell), because scum players are generally more meticulous about keeping their story straight, because town players can count on their stories holding up on their own.
ICT still has to address this point if he cares about leaving it unaddressed.Have I not worked on addressing that particular point?
What was the meaning of your argument when you said --
I really don't like this. Besides the fact that I don't agree (my gut read on Qh tastes like scum) and they're displaying the wrong priorities for town, I really dislike the idea both of 'information lynches' in general (I don't really believe in them at all) and especially ones where you don't outline what you could follow up on them with.Fine, short version: if QH is scum, you are scum and bussed them. If QH is town, hector is scum. Compare: if hector is scum, I'm not. If hector is town, everyone's neutral, at least based on that point alone. These are mostly based on gut feelings and common buddying and bussing tells from looking at the pairings in isolation. Of course, since hector13 is flipping the table, that analysis can be left for a later time.
I would reveal that I am cop and reveal the innocence of a town member so we don’t lynch fellow townies.Wrong. The generally correct answer is to be sneaky and vindicate the townie with something other than a full claim. Why do you imply that not lynching town is a more important goal than protecting the cop? Also, that question wasn't directed at you.
What did you edit out? Where is the entire quote?Double-dashes [--] signify parts where something was removed mid-text. The entire quote is always behind the quote with a link directly above the statement.
By putting together the little pieces we've got to form a picture, if incomplete, of a night.Who do you believe will be killed tonight? How do you expect to know what the town power roles did? What do you believe the other power roles will do? What sort of picture will you build from these pieces?
A slip or two may give us an idea of who is scum.How do you plan to make scumslips happen?
If it's the latter, you'll have to bear with me especially when good ol' text walls drop. I have a tendency to just skip them, especially if they're banter between two persons and packed with rebuttals to quote after quote (see ICT and Dolores), which are very hard to follow on a normal day.What do the text walls have to do with your own scumhunting? If you ignore them, you have an open thread to take charge and start asking some questions.
IcyTea, how do you intend to act on the nulls in your list?By talking to them once they actually start responding to me. They are nulls because they don't post, not because I can't divine their alignments from wing of bat and eye of newt.
Also you think a high level of engagement is a town tell, but how likely do you think that scum can hide behind it?Easily, when not all town players are actively playing.
Everyone, what is the most likely target for the next night kill?Me or dolores.
I'm leaning on a dolores lynch unless the answers convince me otherwise.Based on what? Explain your reasoning.
..... That isn't exactly helpful.This implies you have concluded either dolores or hector must be scum. What is your reasoning for that? Why aren't you engaging with anyone else in this post?
Dolores, can you give a short list of reasons to lynch Hector over you?
The problem with this is that I keep forgetting which questions I was asked to ansewr as I read the posts.I recommend taking notes. Mafia isn't a game you can play entirely in your head, even if this game is notably low on the information flood. Please read back, write down every question you were asked, as well as any other interesting statement you spot, and then respond to them.
(Should I bold when responding to questions)Not necessarily, but you should make it clear exactly who you're answering to.
As for the people saying TricMagic didn't say whatever i claimed he did, it may not be him, but someone said thatI believe you. You haven't said a word about TricMagic. What do you think about TricMagic?
So, for my own questions, first, Everyone, who do you want to be lynched?My vote should answer this question on its own merit.
Vote hectorWhat is your reasoning for this vote?
Not voting: kingawsume, Naturegirl1999, Pooka, Questorhank
dolores: TricMagic (1)
hector13: dolores, IonMatrix, IcyTea31 (3)
Naturegirl1999: hector13 (1)
Votes to extend: ---
Day One ends on 2019-10-14 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 4 votes.
Who do you believe will be killed tonight? How do you expect to know what the town power roles did? What do you believe the other power roles will do? What sort of picture will you build from these pieces? How do you plan to make scumslips happen?I haven't had the time to actually pay attention to the individual members of the game so I can't reasonably say who might be nightkilled, but I can expect that if Dolores was not lynched, they'll either be kept alive as potential WIFOM material for scum or is scum themselves (this, in addition to my gut feeling that they might be power wolfing that I expressed in my first post is your answer to why I blued Dolores); in other words I don't know who will be night killed, but I have a strong feeling it won't be Dolores. As for the power roles, there's breadcrumbs which would likely appear on Day 2, as well as changes in read lists. I can expect the jailer for example to feel better about a guy he jailed.
I would say that scum can be very adept at being active even when all the townies post hourly. For one, it makes them that much harder to spot by activity and if done well, nobody would expect Active Helpful Town Poster to be the Scum of the Earth. Unless you never post, I believe activity doesn't tell much of how scummy someone is. Not to mention it is affected by external factors unrelated to the game itself.QuoteAlso you think a high level of engagement is a town tell, but how likely do you think that scum can hide behind it?Easily, when not all town players are actively playing.
Dolores, I have scrolled up and down the game's two pages and found nothing of a "reads list." Do you have one on hand?Where's yours, kiddo?
IcyTea is active and hector isn't. Now, hector would theoretically be less active due to external factors if he wasn't going to go in on a mafia game, but he also went in and didn't give any sort of excuse about it so maybe I'm reading too much into that. Hector is still more active than 2/3 of the town, but that's not surprising given who's making up the other 2/3 of the town. ICT seems to care a lot more about the state of his information and potential cases generally, whereas hector seems more focused on specific narratives. What I'm trying to say is, so far in this game, hector13 is suspicious to me and IcyTea31 isn't.Spoiler: In other words, something like this: (click to show/hide)
Everyone, what is the most likely target for the next night kill?Why do you care? How about you find scum instead of trying to direct the conversatino to wifom?
I'm leaning on a dolores lynch unless the answers convince me otherwise.And have you got a single piece of evidence to back that up? You've got several pages of what is almost 50% my content. Why don't you go through that and try to piece together an argument instead of complaining that reading posts is too hard and asking for things you've already seen.
Dolores, can you give a short list of reasons to lynch Hector over you?What a fucking joke.
IcyTea is active and hector isn't. Now, hector would theoretically be less active due to external factors if he wasn't going to go in on a mafia game, but he also went in and didn't give any sort of excuse about it so maybe I'm reading too much into that. Hector is still more active than 2/3 of the town, but that's not surprising given who's making up the other 2/3 of the town. ICT seems to care a lot more about the state of his information and potential cases generally, whereas hector seems more focused on specific narratives. What I'm trying to say is, so far in this game, hector13 is suspicious to me and IcyTea31 isn't.as well as a wall of questions directed at the suspect parts of his posts that he declined to answer.
That's not a lynch list, it's merely a list saying who is active and who is inactive. Besides Dolores and ICT, notice how everyone in that list is blue, they all have a finger of suspicion pointed towards them. Not exactly useful because there is two scum, not that many.Kinda makes it hard for the players in the game when you're so cripplingly inactive that they can't draw any conclusions about your alignment, chump. Posting once in RVS and then lurking for the rest of the game is suspicious as heck and you don't get to pretend it's not.
So, for my own questions, first, Everyone, who do you want to be lynched?hector13, obviously
Also, dolores, I see that you have requested a extention. Do you still feel like we needit? If so, why?Well given that 2/3 of the town have posted virtually nothing, it'd be a good start.
There's too much here to dissect into clear points, as my issue is about the post as a whole: the way you suddenly switched your tone to agreeing with me and arguing from the starting point of me being town seems to me like an attempt to flatter me to distract me away from you. It's after only directly responding to one point (though your post to hector indirectly responds to most of the rest) of this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174779.msg8036508#msg8036508), and after saying this:You already know I'm a hypocrite, I'd have just thought it was assumed. Anyway, it seemed like you understood my points and there was nothing in your post that I was going to drag out at a later date to try and get you lynched (besides what I did); I was "playing suspect" in that exchange and you weren't, soThe idea that not giving a bad response is more important than getting content out onto the page where other players can see it is deeply scummy, ICT. Why are you so concerned about how you look? Surely if you give a forthright response and let slip things like your identity, that can only be good for you, right ICT?My gut simply doesn't agree with the sudden flip-flop. I thought I had you cornered with your only out being to admit to hypocrisy, and then just...nothing. Here's a thought: I consider hypocrisy to be an anti-scumtell (not quite a towntell), because scum players are generally more meticulous about keeping their story straight, because town players can count on their stories holding up on their own.
Fine, short version: if QH is scum, you are scum and bussed them. If QH is town, hector is scum.This is duuuumb
As for what they will do, I have the feeling that you and Dolores would be the center of power role activity due to both the content you both created and the content the rest has not created (which means the rest are not as fruitful for PR usage). As for the picture, I can't say without the pieces yet, but the more interconnected, the better, and finally scumslips can be made to happen by questioning motives for an action, and this will be easier during the mass claims season where scum have to build up a believable "alibi" to stay alive.What a fucking joke. Here's your mass claim, dumbass. "I claim vanilla townie". There you go. That's it. That's your alibi. The one power role is the jailkeeper who won't claim under any circumstance, because the setup didn't roll a cop. Congrats.
For one, it makes them that much harder to spot by activity and if done well, nobody would expect Active Helpful Town Poster to be the Scum of the Earth.Nobody suspects Active Helpful Town Poster because they're contributing to the game, which is hard to do as scum when you already know where all the pieces go and are trying their best not to give it away. It's easy to be active as a townie in an active town because there are a lot of things you want to find out. The activity of the town is a rate limiter on how much work you can do because you can't schizopost your way into alignment knowledge, you've gotta investigate based on content in the thread. It is always in scums interest for there to be less activity in the thread and it is always in town's interest for there to be more.
Unless you never post, I believe activity doesn't tell much of how scummy someone is.(Until twelve hours ago, you've pretty much never posted. I guess this is your scumclaim?)
I'm satisfied by your answers, my only point of disagreement is Dolores being nightkilled, but I can see you getting nightkilled probable. Won't be long until we find out or something changes in the upcoming two days.Yeah guys, let's just wait for scum to win before we do any work. The fact that we have a limited number of mislynches and will virtually certainly have to solve the game without too much mechanical help doesn't mean that we can't sit on a thumbs and refuse to do anything until we get mechanical solutions, which will be after we've lost.
Why only one? Why that question in particular?Usually by that point I'd have other questions to deal with, townies to lead along, and other people to give judgement on. Others will likely comment on it, but who would point out a single question as being scumbuddies? It being a throwaway question, again, I don't think anyone would try to link it to us being scum together. Again, passivity, but enough passive-aggressive to satisfy everyone, sans maybe the most aggressive of townies.
I'll start with everyone at once and see who catches my eye.Unless you're claiming cop, I'd like to know more about what you meant by that. Are you referring to the act of investigating through text, or through a night ability? If the latter, would you mind explaining how we have two town cops, or that Tric is the mafia cop? Oh wait,
As they say, the best way to get the right answer is to give a wrong one.why the fuck am I even trying?
TricMagic: Scum. Claiming town cop, but actually rolecop. Gut feeling.WHERE DID HE CLAIM COP
why the fuck am I even trying?Got some balls to call this 'trying' and complain like we're making it hard for you to play the game
His first post. Who, in any right mind, says thisTricMagic: Scum. Claiming town cop, but actually rolecop. Gut feeling.WHERE DID HE CLAIM COP
He answered a hypothetical about when he should claim if he were a cop, but did not make any claim.
Cop claim in this game would be as soon as I have information.and doesn't interpret it as a cop claim? He's laid it out, wifom or not. Forgive me for not writing college-level arguments in a forum game.
I'd like to point out how I'm at least trying, asswipe. It wasn't directed towards you or about you, so please, can it. It was directed at ICT, and me attempting to get an answer (period) from him. If anything, all I see is you intervening as his scumbuddy.why the fuck am I even trying?Got some balls to call this 'trying' and complain like we're making it hard for you to play the game
Why do you keep harping on about cop claims? Why is this such a big deal to you?Because of how I play the game. Cop claims are 90% scum excuse, 5% scum last resort, 5% actually town, in my experience. Claiming cop, especially D1, is nothing but an excuse to act scummy, or an excuse as to why you're acting scummy.
How do you feel about pooka and questorhawk? Do you buy into with why I'm leaning more towards scum with them? If not, do you think they've given anything out to indicate their alignment?I've trusted you about as far I can throw the server rack your arguements are on. Pooka is null, along with Ion and Nature; they posted even less than I have. Hank is neutral, leaning town.
Are any of the others (Ion, Naturegirl) either suspicious or town scented to you?
Who, in any right mind, says thisLiterally anyone and everyone, considering you're the only one that didCop claim in this game would be as soon as I have information.and doesn't interpret it as a cop claim?
Forgive me for not writing college-level arguments in a forum game.no
I've trusted you about as far I can throw the server rack your arguements are on. Pooka is null, along with Ion and Nature; they posted even less than I have. Hank is neutral, leaning town.So if you're acknowledging A) that players who don't post anything can't be read and B) you don't know the alignment of other players in the game, why aren't you pursuing any kind of investigation into these players?
scumslips can be made to happen by questioning motives for an actionHow will you know what actions were made?
this will be easier during the mass claims seasonWhen do you expect this mass claim season to be?
scum have to build up a believable "alibi" to stay alive.Why is "I'm a vanilla townie" not a believable alibi? Because that's what they'll use.
For one, it makes them that much harder to spot by activityWrong. Finding the most and least engaged players is as easy as counting everyone's posts/wordcount/etc. and ranking them by that. Suspicious outliers are easier to notice from a gaussian curve than from a flat line of nothing, because if most of the town aren't posting, scum can also not engage and still have a perfectly median post count.
Not to mention it is affected by external factors unrelated to the game itself.Do you think you could take, say, five fifteen-minute breaks out of your day? A major world religion can make that work, so you can as well. Or alternatively, when you have free time in the evening, post one mega-post responding to everything said that day. When you sign up for the game, you agree to find some time in your calendar to actually play to win.
Won't be long until we find out or something changes in the upcoming two days.Assuming mislynches and successful nightkills, we'll be in LYLO in two days. Got a plan for doing something useful before then?
You're that certain that Qh is town? Why? Based on what? -- What have you read that makes you so willing to tell me that they're clean?I'm not certain. But this post here tells me that ignorance is a possible explanation for the misaimed priorities:
The more I think about this the more of a trap it seems.Combine that with the stronger scum reads on other players, and you have a town read. However, it's a very incomplete picture based on a weak argument, which is why I really want a response out of QH.
Usually by that point I'd have other questions to deal with, townies to lead along, and other people to give judgement on.That's also what you should have as town. Where are they?
Others will likely comment on it, but who would point out a single question as being scumbuddies?I would, if that question was the only interaction the two ever had.
Again, passivity, but enough passive-aggressive to satisfy everyone, sans maybe the most aggressive of townies.What you're describing is active-lurking. It's a fairly generally accepted scumtell around here. How is it different from what you're doing right now?
Unless you're claiming cop, I'd like to know more about what you meant by that. Are you referring to the act of investigating through text, or through a night ability?Investigation: the act of gathering information about a subject through varied means, including but not limited to talking to them. Inspection: the act of using a cop's night ability.
why the fuck am I even trying?Because you'll never win the game if you don't.
TricMagic: Scum. Claiming town cop, but actually rolecop. Gut feeling.You're willing to go for a gut lynch without questioning the target after an extension was granted?
Everyone, what is the most likely target for the next night kill?Depending on which of them is scum, I’m guessing dolores or ICT due to comparatively high levels of activity compared to everyone else. Unless they are both scum arguing with each other to get one of them to be thought of as town because why would scum be investigating each other. I think at least one of them possibly both might be town, if this is the case, one of them might be night killed. Unless this answer suspecting them being night killed would cause the scum to nightkilk someone else to make town think they both are scum when they might not be because why wouldn’t scum kill high activity townies unless those “townies” werent townies
I'm leaning on a dolores lynch unless the answers convince me otherwise.I’m curious why this is
What do you think about Tric?Well, the usual. Null, leaning town. Not sure why he is choosing between lynching hector and dolores tho. I mean, which sensible person wont choose the person who quitted?
What is your reasoning behind voting hector?I mean, he literally quit.
Do you think you could take, say, five fifteen-minute breaks out of your day? A major world religion can make that work, so you can as well.OK.
Where's yours, kiddo?Easy there, easy there. How do you expect me, who made a singular post before yesterday, to suddenly produce a reads list out of thin air? You need to slow down a bit. We're not in a rush, we've still got tomorrow.
Not only had I posted an ordered list of reads, I'd posted the explanation of the...
Why do you care? How about you find scu[rest of non-answer cut out]Stop dodging the question and start answering it.
And have you got a single piece of evidence to back that up? You've got several pages of what is almost 50% my content. Why don't you go through that and try to piece together an argument instead of complaining that reading posts is too hard and asking for things you've already seen.There's the bad gut feeling, there's the new thing of you dodging questions, and I'm not feeling up to reading walls of text between you and ICT.
Unless this answer suspecting them being night killed would cause the scum to nightkilk someone else to make town think they both are scum when they might not be because why wouldn’t scum kill high activity townies unless those “townies” werent towniesIf they're both townies, it is very possible that the scum would leave them alive either because they're nowhere close to uncovering the scum, or because they think the scum are town. Keeping track of who they think is OK while they're still alive should be a thing.
I’m curious why this isI've got a bad feeling about dolores and think they're power wolfing.
What a fucking joke. Here's your mass claim, dumbass. "I claim vanilla townie". There you go. That's it. That's your alibi. The one power role is the jailkeeper who won't claim under any circumstance, because the setup didn't roll a cop. Congrats.The more I play with Dolores, the more I see why Hector quit and the more I tempted I am to red them. Also I love how this is a "mass" claim. I'm not even sure what to respond here, but I suppose I'll let dolores ramble.
You're not going to find anything on D1 and nothing beyond cop claims/counterclaims (which might not happen) D2+ if you don't do actual work in the thread instead of waiting around doing jack shit.
Nobody suspects Active Helpful Town Poster because they're contributing to the game, which is hard to do as scum when you already know where all the pieces go and are trying their best not to give it away.The Active Helpful Town Poster as I said is basically the Scum of the Earth I'm talking about. Yes it's hard, but it's not impossible, and it makes for a good show. So I save myself the trouble from worrying about activity.
(Until twelve hours ago, you've pretty much never posted. I guess this is your scumclaim?)By the standards of whom? A towntell so strong and reliable, practically few even has it this game. No thanks.
Completely wrong and laughably uneducated. Activity is the strongest and most reliable towntell.
Explicitly anti-activity.I'm not sure how you extrapolated that from my posts, but ok, I'll play along. I'm the dumbest and most idiotic being alive and you make Einstein look stupid.
How will you know what actions were made?Claims, nightkill results if you're a protective power role.
When do you expect this mass claim season to be?Day 2 at the earliest, Day 3 at the latest.
Why is "I'm a vanilla townie" not a believable alibi? Because that's what they'll use.You have a point here, it is a believable alibi especially if everyone else claims the same.
Wrong. Finding the most and least engaged players is as easy as counting everyone's posts/wordcount/etc. and ranking them by that. Suspicious outliers are easier to notice from a gaussian curve than from a flat line of nothing, because if most of the town aren't posting, scum can also not engage and still have a perfectly median post count.Interesting. What if the outliers post too much compared to the rest (assume all of them are posting fairly regularly)?
Assuming mislynches and successful nightkills, we'll be in LYLO in two days. Got a plan for doing something useful before then?Vote to lynch someone today, then the power roles do their work overnights. I'd rather the power roles go for anyone other than you and ICT; I won't specify who because I'd like them to spread over the players. Mass claims can happen as early as Day 2 and we should make the best use of it.
Do you think you could take, say, five fifteen-minute breaks out of your day? A major world religion can make that work, so you can as well. Or alternatively, when you have free time in the evening, post one mega-post responding to everything said that day. When you sign up for the game, you agree to find some time in your calendar to actually play to win.A major world religion has a fixed system of doing things; the five daily prayers of Islam rarely change. A Mafia game is unpredictable, either you spend five minutes responding to a bunch of posts or twenty to deal with dolores' responses to a single person. I know Mafia is a srz business game, but activity on Day 1 isn't even my strongest suit on a normal day, let alone with a cold and life to tend to.
Pooka is right, dolores shouldn’t be dodging questions. If you are town, you have no reason do dodge questions.Everyone, what is the most likely target for the next night kill?Why do you care?
Easy there, easy there. How do you expect me, who made a singular post before yesterday, to suddenly produce a reads list out of thin air?Why do you feel like I should have one if you're going to refuse to do the same work you're asking for?
You need to slow down a bit. We're not in a rush, we've still got tomorrow.Yes and no. The degree of certainty that we could have in our positions would be overwhelmingly better if we could have a productive 120 hours instead of a productive 48 hours. I, for one, will probably not be posting too many times after this and am liable to be slipping into a mild coma in the span leading up to the deadline. If everyone put out a post or two like this (your most recent), we'd be sitting well for going into D2.
You're going to be seeing a lot of this quote pyramid in the future unless/until you convince me you're not scum.Stop dodging the question and start answering it.Everyone, what is the most likely target for the next night kill?Why do you care? How about you find scu[rest of non-answer cut out]{Why do you care? How about you find scum instead of trying to direct the conversatino to wifom?}
I'll also take this chance to remind you [IcyTea] that if you are town, you're probably going to die tonight because the hypothetical jailkeeper will be on me and all but the most inept or easily wifom'd scumteams will realise this.You should be able to realise from my 'nonanswer' that this position hadn't changed. Jailkeeper is going to be on me, because either I'm town and the most valuable player in the game, or I'm scum and you may as well block me. Knowing this, scum are probably not going to kill me, so they're probably going to kill ICT. All of this is pointless and subject to WIFOM though, because scum can read my posts (though I guess that might not be true, if the scumteam involves pooka lmao).
I'm not feeling up to reading walls of text between you and ICT.If you've read the source of the above quote which apparently made you switch your vote, Naturegirl1999, you shoulds notice that you are now literally voting me based on another players gutread.
Again, you're either just plain uneducated and have no idea what you're talking about, or you're lying through your teeth. If it is easier to post more as town, then if everyone posts as much as possible, scum will be forced to post less by their increased difficulty in doing so. The only exception would be if a player literally always throws the game as town because they want to always be scum or some dumb shit like that. Basically, if it's variable how difficult it is to do something as town/scum, we can literally determine alignment solely by that category if we push it near the limit.Nobody suspects Active Helpful Town Poster because they're contributing to the game, which is hard to do as scum when you already know where all the pieces go and are trying their best not to give it away.The Active Helpful Town Poster as I said is basically the Scum of the Earth I'm talking about. Yes it's hard, but it's not impossible, and it makes for a good show. So I save myself the trouble from worrying about activity.
By the standards of whom? A towntell so strong and reliable, practically few even has it this game. No thanks.In 90% of mafia games, 2/3 of this town would be the first player lynched for their crippling inactivity and total refusal to engage in scumhunting, yes.
Claims, nightkill results if you're a protective power role.Let's find scum before we're all dead, for a change of pace. Mechanics don't matter. It's D1. Scum will slip because they're scummy, not because you've got inspect results on one of them.
Interesting. What if the outliers post too much compared to the rest (assume all of them are posting fairly regularly)?That means they're (probably) town (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=132415.msg4712136#msg4712136)
Potential WIFOM material if they're seen alive Day 2, and I'd rather get rid of it now than later.I only quoted this because it's funny that you think I'm such a threat to the scum that you expect me to be the target of their scumkill, yet you're also trying to lynch me (because I won't respond to WIFOM, no less).
A major world religion has a fixed system of doing things; the five daily prayers of Islam rarely change. A Mafia game is unpredictable, either you spend five minutes responding to a bunch of posts or twenty to deal with dolores' responses to a single person. I know Mafia is a srz business game, but activity on Day 1 isn't even my strongest suit on a normal day, let alone with a cold and life to tend to.It was ICT who suggested this routine change, and it seems to be working wonders for you(r content).
So do you not also think that he's scum? If we get a replacement, do you expect to change your vote?Quote from: ICTWhat is your reasoning behind voting hector?I mean, he literally quit.
dolores, what exactly made you think I dont read the thread? I asked why you placed an extension vote. Everyone is inactive, but is that really enough to make you think i dont read the thread? I mean, the inactivity is obvious, but...but...you know what? scrap tthat, im an idiot. Unless your reason wasnt that question, in that case please state it.I was interpreting this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174779.msg8037063#msg8037063) as your saying you weren't reading my posts. Together with your habit of missing questions and anemic content/complaints about your time schedule, I was assuming that you just weren't really following the thread.
Why do you feel like I should have one if you're going to refuse to do the same work you're asking for?
Not having posted doesn't mean you haven't been reading the thread (you not knowing what's in the thread suggests you haven't been reading the thread). There's no reason you couldn't have a list of reads. That said, I'm not too interesting in your putting out a reads list, I'd rather more of this latest post each day in the future.
Again, you're either just plain uneducated and have no idea what you're talking about, or you're lying through your teeth. If it is easier to post more as town, then if everyone posts as much as possible, scum will be forced to post less by their increased difficulty in doing so. The only exception would be if a player literally always throws the game as town because they want to always be scum or some dumb shit like that. Basically, if it's variable how difficult it is to do something as town/scum, we can literally determine alignment solely by that category if we push it near the limit.Well I do know what I'm talking about. Personal anectode: the only game I played as scum was also the one where I was most active and engaged. In fact, I'm beginning to fear that the level of activity I had in that game would be picked up by the players from that community as a meta scumtell. This was a game where Town had great activity along with some heavyweights playing. Up to a point in that game, a good chunk of townies had me at the top of their lists, and their realization that I was scum came a few hours before the final mislynch. It wasn't impossibly hard either; I had good cases to use for mislynches.
In 90% of mafia games, 2/3 of this town would be the first player lynched for their crippling inactivity and total refusal to engage in scumhunting, yes.Which would work if it were one or two. But as you say yourself, it's so widespread that it isn't worth pursuing as of now.
Good homework for me. One day, I'll have the highest post count in a game as scum, I hope.Interesting. What if the outliers post too much compared to the rest (assume all of them are posting fairly regularly)?That means they're (probably) town (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=132415.msg4712136#msg4712136)
I'm not sure why my name has been blued four times in a single post, but I'll have to play along with it.Potential WIFOM material if they're seen alive Day 2, and I'd rather get rid of it now than later.I only quoted this because it's funny that you think I'm such a threat to the scum that you expect me to be the target of their scumkill, yet you're also trying to lynch me (because I won't respond to WIFOM, no less).
All I'm getting from this is that I'm a threat to you, pooka. How can you be so confident that I'm not on your team? You know our alignments already, eh mr mafia?
in other words I don't know who will be night killed, but I have a strong feeling it won't be Dolores.I'm certainly not sure where you got the idea that I think you're such a threat to the scum, or how I expected you to be their target. Okay, maybe this is probably it.
If they're both townies, it is very possible that the scum would leave them alive either because they're nowhere close to uncovering the scum, or because they think the scum are town. Keeping track of who they think is OK while they're still alive should be a thing.In which case, if conditional. I'll add to it with the else conditional just to complete the code: keep track of what they say anyway.
Pooka is insistenting on asking questions which are purely in the realm of WIFOM, and literally interupting my requests that they focus on finding scum to do so.About your explanation of why you didn't answer, no, I don't think scum would just use random.org and call it a day. In my experience, they want to silence power roles, not vanilla townies. By answering my question, you could, I don't know, give everyone an idea of who you think they suspect is a power role. Thus, the nightkill is more likely to not cost us a power role. And answering this question would also generate some WIFOM for the scum to deal with; nearly all of us answered ICT to that question (even you). Now scum have to weigh if they want to attempt nightkilling ICT; because they know there is a great chance a power role is focused on ICT, so they then have to look elsewhere for a safer choice that also happens to be a potential power role. Read: WORK FOR SCUM. So I don't think my question is without merits.
They are manufacturing a false case on me by trying to frame a lack of engagement with an explicitly antitown activity (useless speculation that only helps scum) as some sort of crime.
They are also doing all this, without having read the thread or my posts.
Not voting: Naturegirl1999, Pooka, Questorhank
dolores: TricMagic (1)
hector13: dolores, IonMatrix, IcyTea31 (3)
Naturegirl1999: hector13 (1)
TricMagic: kingawsume (1)
Votes to extend: ---
Day One ends on 2019-10-14 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 4 votes.
Depending on which of them is scum, I’m guessing dolores or ICT due to comparatively high levels of activity compared to everyone else. Unless they are both scum arguing with each other to get one of them to be thought of as town because why would scum be investigating each other. I think at least one of them possibly both might be town, if this is the case, one of them might be night killed.So you believe that if neither of us gets killed, both of us must be scum?
Unless this answer suspecting them being night killed would cause the scum to nightkilk someone else to make town think they both are scum when they might not be becauseAnd that's what WIFOMing yourself feels like. Forget the ifs and focus on what you know.
why wouldn’t scum kill high activity townies unless those “townies” werent towniesHigh-activity townies tend to get protected, killing low-activity townies gives less information to the town, and high activity can make for a smokescreen if you play your cards just right. The wine flows.
Why do you imply that not lynching town is a more important goal than protecting the cop?
How do you plan to use the extend-time to find scum?
How many questions do you expect you will have to ask to get a read on each player?
Well, the usual. Null, leaning town. Not sure why he is choosing between lynching hector and dolores tho.How do you intend to learn why?
I mean, which sensible person wont choose the person who quitted?Someone not going for low-hanging fruit. Let's flip the question: who is your strongest town read and why? I expect an answer longer than one or two sentences.
I mean, he literally quit.Being replaced isn't a scumtell, and someone who isn't playing is an easy lynch for scum. Build an actual case based on more than one point, please, and while you're at it, see if you can build a case against someone else. After all, there are two scum.
The more I play with Dolores, the more I see why Hector quit and the more I tempted I am to red them.Aggressive language isn't alignment-indicative. It's a psychological measure to pressure your target and increase their chance of slipping. Voting someone for reasons other than believing their lynch leads you towards your wincon is highly unsportsmanlike.
So I save myself the trouble from worrying about activity."The scum are so skilled at acting townish, I won't even try to find them."
Claims, nightkill results if you're a protective power role.And when (not if) nobody claims their actions?
You have a point here, it is a believable alibi especially if everyone else claims the same.Considering the point overturns your entire plan, I'd expected you to put up more of a fight against it.
Interesting. What if the outliers post too much compared to the rest (assume all of them are posting fairly regularly)?Then we read them as either being extremely invested in the game, or artificially inflating their post counts. The second is easy to spot, while the first is extremely townish, because scum don't need to invest themselves into the daygame, while townies must.
Vote to lynch someone today, then the power roles do their work overnights. I'd rather the power roles go for anyone other than you and ICT; I won't specify who because I'd like them to spread over the players. Mass claims can happen as early as Day 2 and we should make the best use of it.This is a very complacent plan for the most part except the first. How will you decide who to vote to lynch today? Your current vote is a pressure vote (assuming based on that it has little concrete backing).
TricMagic: Neutral, cop claim at the beginning is interesting.Nobody has claimed cop. Repeating someone else's misconception without checking it yourself is very weak play.
Questorhank: Neutral, hasn't posted much, but has noted dolores' "are you a vanilla townie?" trick question.Why is it important that they noted it?
A major world religion has a fixed system of doing things; the five daily prayers of Islam rarely change. A Mafia game is unpredictable, either you spend five minutes responding to a bunch of posts or twenty to deal with dolores' responses to a single person.It's fine to leave a half-baked posts hanging for a while while you tend to real life, as long as you actually finish them later. The point is to spend time playing and make the game part of your day; taking a prescribed number of prescribed-length breaks to play is just an exaggerated example of how you could do that.
Which would work if it were one or two. But as you say yourself, it's so widespread that it isn't worth pursuing as of now.No, it's absolutely worth pursuing now, because it's seriously hampering one of the town's most powerful tools.
In which case, if conditional. I'll add to it with the else conditional just to complete the code: keep track of what they say anyway.Do you practice what you preach? What's the most important thing I have said in all this game?
About your explanation of why you didn't answer, no, I don't think scum would just use random.org and call it a day. In my experience, they want to silence power roles, not vanilla townies.Here's a counter-experience: in one legendary off-site game, that's exactly what the wolves did. This completely stumped the town leader who was trying to use nightkill analysis as their primary scumhunting method (it was a 15-player game so there was more material to analyze than this game will have). They ended up WIFOMing themselves into saying "Everyone, [wolf] must not die!" in what was named one of the craziest blunders made in that forum's history. You're either currently so deep in wine that you're forgetting to hold your breath, or scum.
Now scum have to weigh if they want to attempt nightkilling ICT; because they know there is a great chance a power role is focused on ICT, so they then have to look elsewhere for a safer choice that also happens to be a potential power role.
Also, instead of "requesting" me to scumhunt, request the others to post. Can't scumhunt without material to work with, can I?Why do you need another player to get others to provide content for you? The first step to scumhunting is to provoke others to responding to you, which can't really be done second-hand.
And yes, I admit to not reading your posts with ICT.A shame, considering those posts are the primary counterargument to lynching dolores.
Now that I read your post, I see that high activity townies can be useful to scum. I thought high activity townies would be targeted because of the amount of questions asked.Depending on which of them is scum, I’m guessing dolores or ICT due to comparatively high levels of activity compared to everyone else. Unless they are both scum arguing with each other to get one of them to be thought of as town because why would scum be investigating each other. I think at least one of them possibly both might be town, if this is the case, one of them might be night killed.So you believe that if neither of us gets killed, both of us must be scum?
QuoteUnless this answer suspecting them being night killed would cause the scum to nightkilk someone else to make town think they both are scum when they might not be becauseAnd that's what WIFOMing yourself feels like. Forget the ifs and focus on what you know.
why wouldn’t scum kill high activity townies unless those “townies” werent townies
High-activity townies tend to get protected, killing low-activity townies gives less information to the town, and high activity can make for a smokescreen if you play your cards just right. The wine flows.I thought that having people change their votes to someone not known to be innocent was a good idea. Another post mentioned sneakily vindicating a player, which would be a better option, as it protects the cop. I will reread posts and ask questions accordingly. The amount of questions I will need to ask will depend on how much I find that I have questions about.
Also, please answer the questions I asked you before:Why do you imply that not lynching town is a more important goal than protecting the cop?
How do you plan to use the extend-time to find scum?
How many questions do you expect you will have to ask to get a read on each player?
Also, what's with the wishy-washy voting? Voting for someone and then retracting that vote before they even respond to it looks like throwing it around to see if it sticks rather than actually thinking who is scum.I voted, then realized that what I should have done was the FoS, so I unvoted and made his name blue to reflect what should have been done earlier
Right, I unvoted you and remove the suspicion from you. Now I realize the suspiciousness of Pooka's inactifity. In the last game I played with Pooka, they posted much more often as town then they are in this game.To be fair, I wasn't quite active in last game's Day 1 either.
Ahem.TricMagic: Neutral, cop claim at the beginning is interesting.Nobody has claimed cop. Repeating someone else's misconception without checking it yourself is very weak play.
Cop claim in this game would be as soon as I have information.TricMagic's words. Not mine. He said "as soon as I have information." I doubt someone else would claim cop if TricMagic had information; it doesn't make sense at all.
Voting someone for reasons other than believing their lynch leads you towards your wincon is highly unsportsmanlike.Which is why I didn't act on my temptations.
"The scum are so skilled at acting townish, I won't even try to find them."I'm pretty sure what I said means "activity doesn't factor in how I scumteam or townread a person" but OK.
How is it complacent? Vote by day, use power roles by night; make the most use out of day and night. Who to lynch is mostly decided on if dolores can convince me that either lynching them is a bad idea or lynching someone else is good; if the former is reached then the lynch would be one of the neutrals.Vote to lynch someone today, then the power roles do their work overnights. I'd rather the power roles go for anyone other than you and ICT; I won't specify who because I'd like them to spread over the players. Mass claims can happen as early as Day 2 and we should make the best use of it.This is a very complacent plan for the most part except the first. How will you decide who to vote to lynch today? Your current vote is a pressure vote (assuming based on that it has little concrete backing).
Considering the similarities of our play, why have you put me at the top and dolores at the bottom of your read list? Your primary argument seems to be emotional based on dolores' insulting and obstinate behaviour (even though they're pretty par for the course on obstinacy in my opinion).For dolores: At the time of writing this list: power dodging, not answering my question, and this thing with the rolefishing. As for you, you resonate better with me and do ask and inquire on what I say.
Possible rolefishing. Rather than ask if Hank is town, they ask if Hank is vanilla town. I'm wary about that question because it seems an attempt to either narrow down the list of possible power roles or nail one.Questorhank: Neutral, hasn't posted much, but has noted dolores' "are you a vanilla townie?" trick question.Why is it important that they noted it?
It's fine to leave a half-baked posts hanging for a while while you tend to real life, as long as you actually finish them later. The point is to spend time playing and make the game part of your day; taking a prescribed number of prescribed-length breaks to play is just an exaggerated example of how you could do that.You have a point. I should consider that.
Oh gee, I wonder was the previous post before that one was? (the only other post in the game)Nobody has claimed cop. Repeating someone else's misconception without checking it yourself is very weak play.Ahem.Cop claim in this game would be as soon as I have information.TricMagic's words. Not mine. He said "as soon as I have information." I doubt someone else would claim cop if TricMagic had information; it doesn't make sense at all.
kingasume Questorhank IonMatrixIncidentally, Tric never actually answered the question that was directed towards him. But it's easy to see how he interpreted the king|Qh|IM question as directed at him and how his answer relates to that.
Tricmagic why'd you feel the need to make this a seperate postBottom of the page Superdorf. For future reference.instead of including it in an actual post like you'd expect someone to do. Were you not intending on posting straight away even though the game has started and you're here?
kingasume Questorhank IonMatrix assuming you're the cop, are you the type of person to try and softclaim cop on D1? Assuming you're noncop town, are you the type of perso nto try to softclaim cop on D1?
That's what ICT said as well, yeah. "Showing an interest in player's alignments doesn't factor in how I scumteam or townread a person", because measures like that are useless when scum can just pretend to do the same thing as town, right?"The scum are so skilled at acting townish, I won't even try to find them."I'm pretty sure what I said means "activity doesn't factor in how I scumteam or townread a person" but OK.
How is it complacent? Vote by day, use power roles by night; make the most use out of day and night. Who to lynch is mostly decided on if dolores can convince me that either lynching them is a bad idea or lynching someone else is good; if the former is reached then the lynch would be one of the neutrals.Complacency emphasised. Lynching a neutral player doesn't generally make it any easier to find scum. There's a real and high chance that there's no cop or the cop dies(roughly ~50% on a mislynch but imo cops are more likely to get lynched D1 because they have priviledged information they don't want to divulge and an interest in the nightgame, and therefore look like scum). What's your plan if you kill a neutral read and go into D2 with the only power role dead from lynch/nightkill? Just gonna throw up your hands and random lynch?
this thing with the rolefishingFinally, a real attempt to look into the sordid parts of my posts.
Possible rolefishing.Right, but why is it important that Questorhank noted the question? The read on the Qh is not the inverse of the read on dolores, my dude.
Rather than ask if Hank is town, they ask if Hank is vanilla town. I'm wary about that question because it seems an attempt to either narrow down the list of possible power roles or nail one.It's funny, because I still haven't bothered going through the thread to try to intuit out the PRs and I fullclaimed in my first post and maintained that position, but nobody seems to care.
Incidentally, Tric never actually answered the question that was directed towards him. But it's easy to see how he interpreted the king|Qh|IM question as directed at him and how his answer relates to that.In a game where nearly everyone is quoting the player who asked the question they're answering, it's easy for what TricMagic said to look out of context. I did that mistake last game and got appropriately lectured for it. You win this one.
I really don't like your continuous, insistent harping on trying to misinterpret one thing the player who abjectly refuses to play the game the most said. There's a legit real case on TricMagic. This ain't it. It almost reads like you feel like you're obligated to lie about what's going on in the game.
I'm pretty sure my activity spiked because...I wanted to play the game I signed up for, not because pressure. Had I been in better health, I'd have actually posted more even, with or without pressure. But if your issue is in that I don't have an interest in alignments (which I clearly must have shown since I took the time to make that reads list), the color tag with the "red" property is there. Use it instead of the "blue" property.That's what ICT said as well, yeah. "Showing an interest in player's alignments doesn't factor in how I scumteam or townread a person", because measures like that are useless when scum can just pretend to do the same thing as town, right?"The scum are so skilled at acting townish, I won't even try to find them."I'm pretty sure what I said means "activity doesn't factor in how I scumteam or townread a person" but OK.
You don't just get to throw out a method of finding scum/town just because it doesn't conform to your preconceived attempt to get a stronger player lynched. It's pretty obvious you understand how important it is that you maintain activity given that the moment someone put pressure on you you tripled the amount of content you had in the game. Unfortunately, that activity doesn't reflect as much of an interest in players alignments as it should. You're certainly sitting prettier than you were a day or two ago.
I thought policy lynches were the norm when you don't have good cases? I thought you said the activity of the neutrals would get them lynched in normal games? Also I don't know, there's enough info to start D2 with? The D1 lynch wagon and its development is a good place to start. Finding who interacted with the nightkill the Day prior and asking them is another good idea. Geez.How is it complacent? Vote by day, use power roles by night; make the most use out of day and night. Who to lynch is mostly decided on if dolores can convince me that either lynching them is a bad idea or lynching someone else is good; if the former is reached then the lynch would be one of the neutrals.Complacency emphasised. Lynching a neutral player doesn't generally make it any easier to find scum. There's a real and high chance that there's no cop or the cop dies(roughly ~50% on a mislynch but imo cops are more likely to get lynched D1 because they have priviledged information they don't want to divulge and an interest in the nightgame, and therefore look like scum). What's your plan if you kill a neutral read and go into D2 with the only power role dead from lynch/nightkill? Just gonna throw up your hands and random lynch?
You don't even have a case against me, which is a shame because you could have had one if you'd read my posts. Of course, that would require you to actually read my posts and direct the town's attention to them, but I guess that would require you to care about (my|hector's|icytea's) alignment which you seem to find hard to do.I do have some points against you, but apparently you don't think I do, which is fine I guess.
First, as you say yourself, Questorhank doesn't even know your meta to properly deduce what role you claimed as. Good luck for me to figure that out. You know what, fine. I'll suffer through your posts tonight while I wait for sleep to come over. I'm feeling better than the last few days, and I will put that to good use.Rather than ask if Hank is town, they ask if Hank is vanilla town. I'm wary about that question because it seems an attempt to either narrow down the list of possible power roles or nail one.It's funny, because I still haven't bothered going through the thread to try to intuit out the PRs and I fullclaimed in my first post and maintained that position, but nobody seems to care.
I asked if he was vanilla town because if you don't answer 'yes' or 'go fuck yourself, rolefishing scum' or something along those lines D1, you're either happy to straight up lie as town (100% acceptable and legit, but it tells me what sort of play to expect [from Qh, the player I have zero meta-information on]) or your priorities are misaligned. In that exchange, Qh both claims VT and then claims that they don't want to be nightkilled, despite the fact that every VT should want to be nightkilled to protect the power roles. That's a very suspicious position, it shows that you're thinking about your own survival and not what the town needs to win. Unless Qh can clear up his position, there's the beginnings of an extremely strong case right there.
Not voting: Naturegir1999, Pooka, Questorhank
dolores: TricMagic (1)
hector13: dolores, IonMatrix, IcyTea31 (3)
Naturegirl1999: hector13 (1)
TricMagic: kingawsume (1)
Votes to extend: ---
Day One ends on 2019-10-12 18:00 EST.
The day has ended.
You are the perfected form of the "thin man", a reptilian species undergoing heavy genetic modification to infiltrate and sabotage the human populace. Unlike many of your brethren, you blend in seamlessly with humans, a feature which made you perfect for the most important job of all: bringing down XCOM.
When the base was evacuated, XCOM made a crucial mistake. The device you used to contact the Elders was mixed in with other equipment and brought to the new site, and with everything in disarray now is the perfect time to strike. Unfortunately, you have both been caught up in a sweep to find the traitors within XCOM, sequestered away in a locked section of the base until your guilt can be determined. If enough of them were to die, though, perhaps you might find an opening to sneak away.
To aid in your task, an Elder, one of the psionic overlords of the Ethereal Collective, put you through an excruciating regimen of psionic augmentation. Against all odds you survived, and came out the other side with minor psionic powers not possessed by any other of your kind. The direct link forged between you and your patron allows you to, with a great deal of time and concentration, detect psionics in others, a trait that may very well come in handy in the coming days.
You are Mafia. You have access to the shared night kill of your faction. Each night you can inspect another player to learn their role. You may talk privately with your ally [In a secret topic held on Quicktopic.com which will be visible to only you and your ally.]
Win Condition: You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!
You are an XCOM soldier, recently recruited into the clandestine organization. Like the other recruits, you represent the best of the entire world, all gathered into an elite strike force dedicated to combating alien black ops. When the assault came, you fought to hold the line, barely making it out with your life.
Unfortunately, your recent recruitment has cast doubt on your loyalty to the cause. Orders came down from the top, isolating you and eight other recruits in a sealed off wing of the new base. There's food, water, and rooms to sleep in, but if there really are traitors among you, then none of you have any time to waste...
You are Town.
Win Condition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.
Not voting: dolores, IcyTea31, IonMatrix, Naturegir1999, Pooka, Questorhank, TricMagic
Votes to extend: ---
Day One ends on 2019-10-19 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 3 votes.
Naturegirl: assume you're the remaining scum, what are your motives for offing kingawsume?If I were scum, killing kingawsume might be because he posted not enough to be a smokescreen, but still answering questions and might give information if left alive
Suppose he was left alive. What kind of information would he give that you would feel the need to kill him? Or let me rephrase the original question.Naturegirl: assume you're the remaining scum, what are your motives for offing kingawsume?If I were scum, killing kingawsume might be because he posted not enough to be a smokescreen, but still answering questions and might give information if left alive
dolores: have you managed to do anything during the night?Nah, I didn't lie about my claim
TricMagic: if ICT were scum, would he play the way he did this game?scum!ICT would have a high chance of being fucked if we rolled a cop and he lynched hector D1, plus (and this is way more important) I just don't think he's scum
I don't like how Pooka tried cases without many reasons for those cases. You and ICT are very engaged, so I'm thinking both of you are town. Not sure about the rest, though"Not sure about the rest though" isn't really good enough. Articulate why. Explain to me why you don't know the alignment of other players. Surely, if you were town, it would be your first priority to find out.
Ah Walls...
Questorhank, and IonMatrix. A question to the three of you. What do you think of all these walls, and which of them is lying?
kingawsume, why aren't you engaging beyond a few posts?
Pooka, why do I not care about asking you questions?
Dolores, what do you think of my vote on you? IcyTea and Hector, what do you think of it? More importantly, which of you are scum, if any?
Also Dolores, the person you remind me of was Scum and achieved victory in that game. Leading town players around is a very valid tactic.
I agree with you, If QH is a vanilla townie, if he were night killed, it would mean a power role isn't nightkilled. I noticed that QH hasn't mentioned anything after this postYes. Although that doesn't gain any information, as denying it would be very scummy, and suggesting other roles puts you at risk of night kill. In addition, claiming town this early could potentially help the mafia narrow down who has a power role (although to confirm it would at least keep them from chancing across one during the night).I just heard something I can't let slide!
A townie is going to get night killed. That's what happens at night. If you're not a power role, it's in your interest, all else being equal, to be the one getting night killed. This protects the powerroles. This helps you, the town, to win.
You're also playing very similarly to in vanilla tea mafia, wherein you were scum.She seems a lot more active, yet I somehow still get that vibe from her.
Pooka, How's the puzzle coming along? What pieces have you found?I don't think dolores is worth pursuing at the moment, now that we're at the start of Day 2 and have enough time to learn about pretty much everyone else. Consider that they drove hector to quit; I don't think dolores would do that to their only scumbuddy this early. There's simply no benefits that I can see from bussing at that point in time. And I'll take their word (alongside mine) that a scummy ICT would not play the way he did.
ICT: given hector is scum, who do you think is his scumbuddy?
How do you feel about naturegirl?I'll answer these questions with reads:
*face palm* looks like I have some time. So...prepare for my useless and unskillled questions I guess.
So,IcyTea, how does it feel to be the GM the last game and a player in this game? (Hopefuly this is relevant)
Already having a bit of an argument are we?
dolores, how do you feel about the assumptions other people have made about you?
Naturegirl, you literally just posted the same thing as TricMagic about dolores's identity. Why?
Is that bandwagoning?
It isn't bandwagoning. I agree with TricmagicI answered his question, though he never pressed me on my response. Note. I no longer am suspicious of dolores, this was farther back in the game. I now think dolores is town.
Everyone, who do you want to be lynched?Ionmatrix, your questions were answered in the thread. Asking who do you want lynched is an odd way of asking who we think is scum. I don't think I'm the only one who answered your questions. Do you have any more questions? Now that we know Hector was scum and can put his interactions in a more informed light? We also know Kingasume was town, allowing us to put his interactions in an informed light? Its day 2 now. Any questions? Responses to people's answers?
I couldn't think of what to askWhy did you air your suspicion, then? Figure out why you are suspicious of your target, consider what conditions would prove or disprove that, then ask a question that leads your target to satisfying those conditions depending on their alignment. Then analyze their responses for further points to prove or disprove. It's just like science.
Pooka: Scum or cop. Activelurking with the excuse of planning to puzzle out the game logically with a massclaim, even after being explained to why it wouldn't work. Analyzes the nightkill by asking a low-activity player to analyze it instead, implying they have an unstated reason to know the answer.
Pooka: what results did you get? I think I can predict your answer; why, in your mind, was that person a more informative inspect than any other player?
Why are you rolefishing?I'm not. I'm asserting that the only way for you to be town at this point is to be the cop. D1 you stated that you're going to rely on power roles to carry the game. I explained why that is too unreliable to work as plan A, and you doubled down on your argument. This discussion gave an illusion of activity to not attract too much attention, but you didn't actually hunt scum effectively. This implies that either you really believe power roles alone can win the game for town, or you are scum.
do you think it is now time to claim while we're only dealing with 1 scum?What would you answer to your own question? It wasn't directed at me, but I believe it's best to wait for scum to fakeclaim first.
I would also like to know why ICT is rolefishingSo what, you're still not able to come up with any questions of your own? Just going to harp on things other people have said instead? Don't have any interest of your own?
But now that this is out of the way, I've got to ask. Why are you rolefishing?Man, where do I even start with this
QuestorHank either the cop or scum, but cripplingly anti-town either way. Simply hasn't posted and isn't active, so there's no way to tell. Looked concerned about not dying as opposed to finding scum during RVS, though.Scum have priviledged information and can have alignment knowledge mechanically. Cops have priviledged information (they are the cop) and can obtain alignment knowledge mechnically. There are certain things that both cops and scum do, which contributes a lot to the high lynch rate among bad!town cops on D1. This is why I brought this up about Questorhank, regarding his D1 play.
But here's the thing: you can't claim cop if you aren't one. If you do, the real cop will counterclaim you, and town will win the second day after that at the latest.There's no cop (1/3 of the time, 50% if you're jk)
Judging by the questions asked by TricMagic,Ah Walls...
Questorhank, and IonMatrix. A question to the three of you. What do you think of all these walls, and which of them is lying?
kingawsume, why aren't you engaging beyond a few posts?
Pooka, why do I not care about asking you questions?
Dolores, what do you think of my vote on you? IcyTea and Hector, what do you think of it? More importantly, which of you are scum, if any?
Also Dolores, the person you remind me of was Scum and achieved victory in that game. Leading town players around is a very valid tactic.
These questions sound like questions a town player would ask, so I'm thinking TricMagic might be town. I'm not sure if Pooka is scum,I agree with you, If QH is a vanilla townie, if he were night killed, it would mean a power role isn't nightkilled. I noticed that QH hasn't mentioned anything after this postYes. Although that doesn't gain any information, as denying it would be very scummy, and suggesting other roles puts you at risk of night kill. In addition, claiming town this early could potentially help the mafia narrow down who has a power role (although to confirm it would at least keep them from chancing across one during the night).I just heard something I can't let slide!
A townie is going to get night killed. That's what happens at night. If you're not a power role, it's in your interest, all else being equal, to be the one getting night killed. This protects the powerroles. This helps you, the town, to win.
QuestionHank, Do you have responses for what Delores said in this quote?
You've been silent for a while
Pooka, How's the puzzle coming along? What pieces have you found?
I couldn't think of what to askWhere have others asked these questions, dolores?*face palm* looks like I have some time. So...prepare for my useless and unskillled questions I guess.
So,IcyTea, how does it feel to be the GM the last game and a player in this game? (Hopefuly this is relevant)
Already having a bit of an argument are we?
dolores, how do you feel about the assumptions other people have made about you?
Naturegirl, you literally just posted the same thing as TricMagic about dolores's identity. Why?
Is that bandwagoning?It isn't bandwagoning. I agree with TricmagicI answered his question, though he never pressed me on my response. Note. I no longer am suspicious of dolores, this was farther back in the game. I now think dolores is town.Everyone, who do you want to be lynched?Ionmatrix, your questions were answered in the thread. Asking who do you want lynched is an odd way of asking who we think is scum. I don't think I'm the only one who answered your questions. Do you have any more questions? Now that we know Hector was scum and can put his interactions in a more informed light? We also know Kingasume was town, allowing us to put his interactions in an informed light? Its day 2 now. Any questions? Responses to people's answers?
I'm not. I'm asserting that the only way for you to be town at this point is to be the cop. D1 you stated that you're going to rely on power roles to carry the game. I explained why that is too unreliable to work as plan A, and you doubled down on your argument. This discussion gave an illusion of activity to not attract too much attention, but you didn't actually hunt scum effectively. This implies that either you really believe power roles alone can win the game for town, or you are scum.OK. You're asking me about concepts for carrying the game forward. dolores said something in a previous post and that is "different culture." Here's something I admit: I'm bad at concepts. I work on the fly, with what I'm faced with right now. What decisions I make or what I say is affected by what I read, not by concepts. I should have said that back when I answered, but it's too late.
With this established, you have flip-flopped on the matter of dolores today. This would make very much sense if you had inspected them, no?Flip flopped? I thought I made it clear why I dropped the case on dolores today.
I don't think dolores is worth pursuing at the moment, now that we're at the start of Day 2 and have enough time to learn about pretty much everyone else. Consider that they drove hector to quit; I don't think dolores would do that to their only scumbuddy this early. There's simply no benefits that I can see from bussing at that point in time.
Nightkill analysis: a useless cask of WIFOM without factual data to compare it to. In using the technique, you imply that you have factual data.OK, let's suppose I do have that factual data. What would it be like?
What would you answer to your own question? It wasn't directed at me, but I believe it's best to wait for scum to fakeclaim first.Now, starting with you and no sooner.
Where have others asked these questions, dolores?Fucking what?
Naturegirl
I don't really like how, uh, conservative your play is. I feel like you don't show a strong interest in other player's alignments which is the definitive scumtell, but you're present enough to suggest that you could. You're also playing very similarly to in vanilla tea mafia, wherein you were scum.
What do you think about Pooka? Particularly, how do you feel about their case on me, or the fact that it fell through. How do you feel about their 'case' on tricmagic? Does it concern you that they seem to be going after players without any good quoted reasons?
I'd also like a general reads list from you, since I don't think you've done anything to really generate content from other players or put out very much at all about how you're thinking.
I cannot stress enough how much making me fullquote a post literally on the end of the previous page, less than six hours old, makes me want to put your name in bold and red.I don't like how Pooka tried cases without many reasons for those cases. You and ICT are very engaged, so I'm thinking both of you are town. Not sure about the rest, though"Not sure about the rest though" isn't really good enough. Articulate why. Explain to me why you don't know the alignment of other players. Surely, if you were town, it would be your first priority to find out.
Is pooka scum? What alignment is TricMagic? What are the rest of your reads?
Why don't you ask any questions? Why do your posts always look like they're tweets? Where is your reads list?
anywayI would also like to know why ICT is rolefishingSo what, you're still not able to come up with any questions of your own? Just going to harp on things other people have said instead? Don't have any interest of your own?
Do you have responses for what Delores said in this quote?Literally just sitting on my question, no contribution
How's the puzzle coming along? What pieces have you found?Not a question, holy fucking shit.
Ionmatrix, your questions were answered in the thread. Asking who do you want lynched is an odd way of asking who we think is scum. I don't think I'm the only one who answered your questions. Do you have any more questions? Now that we know Hector was scum and can put his interactions in a more informed light? We also know Kingasume was town, allowing us to put his interactions in an informed light? Its day 2 now. Any questions? Responses to people's answers?Besides the fact that other people asked this already, other people asked this already. And telling an inactive player that they're inactive isn't really worth more town points, anyway.
Man, where do I even start with thisIt's not even the "scum or cop" thing by itself, it's the fact it was followed by "tell us your results" that rang the alarm.
First of all, 'scum or cop' is not rolefishing. I literally use the same idea not five posts earlier.
So, Pooka, please explain the following to me:The very first thing you actually do in the game is drive hector to give up. As scum, is there a reason you would drive your only scumbuddy (not even that but the informative side of the scumteam, a valuable team member) to quit the game and then bus them? hector's flip by itself was enough reason to know that my case on you no longer has any merit; so why not...actually reduce the suspicious circle to Naturegirl, QH, Tric and Ion, and focus on these four? That's the whole idea.
Why aren't you still pursuing your D1 case one me (dolores)? By your own admission, you can't agree with my sentiment that you don't have anything on me. What's changed?
Given that there is a sustained case on you and the alternative is wasting the D2 lynch why not claim? I'll preemptively note that this is a question, not a command. Explain to me why you're not claiming your role, especially given that with two very-likely-town players, one scum, and two mislynches, a massclaim literally breaks the setup/solves the game unless ICT is the only town powerrole. The alternative, as the post I was writing this before says, is being lynched. Surely you could just claim VT if that were your role, and actually do it authentically and convince us.
Where have others asked these questions, dolores?Fucking what?
Are you just quoting your own posts for no other reason than to clog up the thread?
I asked you some questions. On D2.Naturegirl
I don't really like how, uh, conservative your play is. I feel like you don't show a strong interest in other player's alignments which is the definitive scumtell, but you're present enough to suggest that you could. You're also playing very similarly to in vanilla tea mafia, wherein you were scum.
What do you think about Pooka? Particularly, how do you feel about their case on me, or the fact that it fell through. How do you feel about their 'case' on tricmagic? Does it concern you that they seem to be going after players without any good quoted reasons?
I'd also like a general reads list from you, since I don't think you've done anything to really generate content from other players or put out very much at all about how you're thinking.I cannot stress enough how much making me fullquote a post literally on the end of the previous page, less than six hours old, makes me want to put your name in bold and red.I don't like how Pooka tried cases without many reasons for those cases. You and ICT are very engaged, so I'm thinking both of you are town. Not sure about the rest, though"Not sure about the rest though" isn't really good enough. Articulate why. Explain to me why you don't know the alignment of other players. Surely, if you were town, it would be your first priority to find out.
Is pooka scum? What alignment is TricMagic? What are the rest of your reads?
Why don't you ask any questions? Why do your posts always look like they're tweets? Where is your reads list?anywayI would also like to know why ICT is rolefishingSo what, you're still not able to come up with any questions of your own? Just going to harp on things other people have said instead? Don't have any interest of your own?
for a startDo you have responses for what Delores said in this quote?Literally just sitting on my question, no contributionHow's the puzzle coming along? What pieces have you found?Not a question, holy fucking shit.Ionmatrix, your questions were answered in the thread. Asking who do you want lynched is an odd way of asking who we think is scum. I don't think I'm the only one who answered your questions. Do you have any more questions? Now that we know Hector was scum and can put his interactions in a more informed light? We also know Kingasume was town, allowing us to put his interactions in an informed light? Its day 2 now. Any questions? Responses to people's answers?Besides the fact that other people asked this already, other people asked this already. And telling an inactive player that they're inactive isn't really worth more town points, anyway.
Naturegirl
Your response to being told that you're playing conservatively and it's suspicious how little you care about other player's alignments is to double down and say that you're doing enough? You're literally going to defend the accusation of being overprotective and useless by being as overprotective and useless as you physically can?
ppe: I'll respond to pooka after their next post I guess
My point is that I am asking questons, you said I only copied questons, I responded by showing questons I asked without simply copying. I thoutht I mentioned reads. I think you are town. Pooka might be scum or jailkeeper, TricMagic or QuestionHank might be scum or cop, Ionmatrix is suspicous, stopping for much of the game
QuestionHank, what do you think about what has been said so far?
TricMagic, you havn't posted in D2 yet, what are your reads?
OK. You're asking me about concepts for carrying the game forward. dolores said something in a previous post and that is "different culture." Here's something I admit: I'm bad at concepts. I work on the fly, with what I'm faced with right now. What decisions I make or what I say is affected by what I read, not by concepts. I should have said that back when I answered, but it's too late.Nuh-uh. You don't get to pick and choose. I said that I believed that I could imagine you were so bad at mafia that I could imagine bad!town playing that way on D1. I just phrased it nicely. For comparison: basically (maybe literally) any of my other posts directed towards you, wherein I call you out for trying to rely on wifom and mechanics, neither of which are reliable or available to use and both of which are scummy as fuaark.
Flip flopped? I thought I made it clear why I dropped the case on dolores today.Yeah I cut up a quote, what are you going to do about it nerd?
Consider that they drove hector to quit; I don't think dolores would do that to their only scumbuddy this early.
OK, let's suppose I do have that factual data. What would it be like?It's a report. That's it. It's a pm from the moderator. That's the only 'factual evidence' that exists. That, and the vanilla scum PM.
Now, starting with you and no sooner.You've got to be fucking kidding me
It's not even the "scum or cop" thing by itself, it's the fact it was followed by "tell us your results" that rang the alarm.What fucking bell?
hector's flip by itself was enough reason to know that my case on you no longer has any merit; so why not...actually reduce the suspicious circle to Naturegirl, QH, Tric and Ion, and focus on these four? That's the whole idea.Because they're not active in the thread, except for NG who you aren't interacting with at all. You can't magic a response out of QH/TM/IM, so leave some questions resting on them and get on with your work. NG is here, if they're the only active player you're actively looking into, why not direct your attention to them?
Also, I'm certainly not up for claiming right now unless someone else comes forward with one. As a power role I don't want to claim and be the night kill, AND as a vanilla townie I don't want to tell scum that I'm not the lynch they're looking for.Listen up, dumbass.
My point is that I am asking questons, you said I only copied questons, I responded by showing questons I asked without simply copying. I thoutht I mentioned reads. I think you are town. Pooka might be scum or jailkeeper, TricMagic or QuestionHank might be scum or cop, Ionmatrix is suspicous, stopping for much of the gameExcept literally none of those were original or interesting questions.
Pooka might be scum or jailkeeperThe cat's out of the bag.
OK. I'm not interested in this game anymore. I have better wastes of time than being told everything I do is WIFOM.Had you considered posting something that wasn't wifom?
> does somethingIf dolores was jailed and there was a kill, that means dolores cannot be scum. Pooka, please stay, if you end up jailing scum then you won't get killed. If you end up jailing one of the inactives and there is still a kill, then the suspect list is still narrowed down
> WIFOM THIS!
> does something else
> WIFOM THAT!
> breathes
> WIFOM!
OK. I'm not interested in this game anymore. I have better wastes of time than being told everything I do is WIFOM.Pooka might be scum or jailkeeperThe cat's out of the bag.
I'm the Town Jailkeeper and I jailed dolores yesterday. Happy now?
Have fun.
I predict the very next thing is that someone will say this whole post is WIFOM.
I've been considering quitting the past few days but decided to hold on. To hell with holding on.
Superdorf, I am out. This is final.
Why do you call everything Pooka posts WIFOM? Pooka claimed jailkeeper and that they jailed you, and you call it WIFOM, since you said asked whether Pooka considered posting something that isn't WIFOM, this to me implies you think Pooka's claim is also WIFOM.OK. I'm not interested in this game anymore. I have better wastes of time than being told everything I do is WIFOM.Had you considered posting something that wasn't wifom?
TricMageIf you were Jailkeeper, who would you jail tonight and why?TM never answered this question, though due to inactivity I doubt he will. Maybe he will surprise me.
Not voting: IonMatrix, Naturegir1999, Pooka, Questorhank, TricMagic
Pooka: dolores, IcyTea31 (2)
Votes to extend: ---
Day One ends on 2019-10-21 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 3 votes.
Superdorf: if a VT gets roleblocked, do they know it?They do not.
Pooka, if you tell us who you will jail, and the person is scum, then you won't be killed. If you tell us who you jail, and they end up not being scum, and you are killed, then the person who you jailed can't be scum.Jailed players are roleblocked, so if you successfully jail scum, you wouldn't be killed. Please don't quit, you can still helpUnless I'm getting this wrong and scum can kill from jail, in which case saying who you jailed can still be helpful
Why do you call everything Pooka posts WIFOM?Because it was
Pooka claimed jailkeeper and that they jailed you, and you call it WIFOMI never did, that's perfectly inline with the idea of 'cop or scum' that's been being pursued on pooka. I didn't comment on the claim because, besides the fact that it's obviously true and doesn't need any elaboration, I don't expect the game to continue.
since you said asked whether Pooka considered posting something that isn't WIFOM, this to me implies you think Pooka's claim is also WIFOM.That's on you
Unvote. I'm used to blocks being revealed to the targetI've literally never seen that
and my line of thought started from neither me nor dolores claiming to be blocked. That led to the assumption that there would be a cop, making it possible to set the counterclaim trap for Pooka, who was playing sneakily (as both scum and power roles often do).I was assuming you were the cop with a kinawsume inspect or something with the fact that you were trying to force out a claim
With Superdorf's rules clarification, I no longer have a logic-based case on Pooka, and don't see a reason to doubt the claim, especially coupled with the flip-flop on dolores which makes complete sense now.Yeah if they block the scumkill when they target scum they're essentially just a turbocop who can't end up with a report on the dead player
Naturegirl1999 earns town points for seeming genuinely concerned about a power role quittingI don't really see how concern about metagame elements is alignment indicative
and is currently playing without being grilled to do it.But yeah it's much better
With that in mind, IonMatrix. You're on the inactive players chopping block. How are you going to get off of it?So what's the plan, just lynch someone and let them go till a later point if they post?
What makes you so certain you’re going to be killed at some point? Do you expect to be lynched or night-killed?It's certainly possible that I get lynched, as there's no way for my play style to confirm my being town, since there's no other data for comparison. The cop could do it, but it isn't always in the town's interest to out the cop to save a townie.
As for night-kill, it could very possibly happen to either as a distraction or if I'm becoming a threat. And no matter what, the longer the game goes on, the higher my odds of dying become.
I'm thinking eitherYou also gave something of a non-answer for dolores’ question. Don’t claim unless you’re about to get lynched, but it probably won’t matter even if you do.I would probably try to avoid suspicion in the first place, but that doesn't really help because that's what everyone else is trying to do too. And now that I think about it, claiming to avoid a lynch isn't as deadly as I initially thought, as the jailkeep could keep the claimee safe (although doing this for extended periods is basically just having another townie).
How would you go about avoiding this situation, as a power role?
Do you still think QH is town since hector13 was scum?I really don't like this. Besides the fact that I don't agree (my gut read on Qh tastes like scum) and they're displaying the wrong priorities for town, I really dislike the idea both of 'information lynches' in general (I don't really believe in them at all) and especially ones where you don't outline what you could follow up on them with.Fine, short version: if QH is scum, you are scum and bussed them. If QH is town, hector is scum. Compare: if hector is scum, I'm not. If hector is town, everyone's neutral, at least based on that point alone. These are mostly based on gut feelings and common buddying and bussing tells from looking at the pairings in isolation. Of course, since hector13 is flipping the table, that analysis can be left for a later time.
Superdorf
If the jailer jails scum, under what conditions will the kill go through?
I've literally never seen thatEvery game I've been in thus far has had a block target told about it even if they didn't act. Different "generations" of players I guess.
Yeah if they block the scumkill when they target scum they're essentially just a turbocop who can't end up with a report on the dead playerThat's not completely right. If there's no nightkill, it can mean either that the jailkeeper blocked scum, or that they protected scum's target. The jailkeeper can only find town with certainty, and only when the nightkill goes through.
I don't really see how concern about metagame elements is alignment indicativeIt's effort. I'm more focused on the emotions and genuineness than the plaintext: NG wants to win, even if she is currently about twenty steps behind. She's not experienced enough to beg for a quitter to stay as a scum gambit.
So what's the plan, just lynch someone and let them go till a later point if they post?Sadly, yes. I can't use my telepathic powers to send psychic messages to ask the inactive players to post (as that would break the rules), and without them posting I've got nothing.
Whats your plan for D2?Actually be helpfu? Hopefully?
claim plzWell, I'm a VT(as if it would make a differnce)
Not voting: IonMatrix, Naturegir1999, Pooka, Questorhank, TricMagic
IonMatrix: IcyTea31 (1)
Questorhank: dolores (1)
Votes to extend: ---
Day Two ends on 2019-10-21 18:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 3 votes.
Aaaah, weekends...
*ahem*
Ok, heres a short post so that Superdorf wont modkill me when I reread the thread.Quote from: ICTWhats your plan for D2?Actually be helpfu? Hopefully?Quote from: someoneclaim plzWell, I'm a VT(as if it would make a differnce)
Naturegirl1999 nothing really useful has come from youlmao
If Pooka quits, we lose the jailkeeper. Which means we have 1 cop, 4 VTs, and 1 MafiosoHow intresting.
I looked at the potential roles list, and saw that if there is a jailkeeper there is a copThat's simply not correct
Not voting: IonMatrix, Pooka, Questorhank
IonMatrix: IcyTea31 (1)
Questorhank: dolores, Naturegirl999 (2)
Naturegirl999: TricMagic (1)
You are an XCOM soldier, recently recruited into the clandestine organization. Like the other recruits, you represent the best of the entire world, all gathered into an elite strike force dedicated to combating alien black ops. When the assault came, you fought to hold the line, barely making it out with your life.
Unfortunately, your recent recruitment has cast doubt on your loyalty to the cause. Orders came down from the top, isolating you and eight other recruits in a sealed off wing of the new base. There's food, water, and rooms to sleep in, but if there really are traitors among you, then none of you have any time to waste...
You are Town.
Win Condition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.
You are an XCOM soldier, recently recruited into the clandestine organization. Like the other recruits, you represent the best of the entire world, all gathered into an elite strike force dedicated to combating alien black ops. When the assault came, you fought to hold the line, barely making it out with your life.
Unfortunately, your recent recruitment has cast doubt on your loyalty to the cause. Orders came down from the top, isolating you and eight other recruits in a sealed off wing of the new base. There's food, water, and rooms to sleep in, but if there really are traitors among you, then none of you have any time to waste...
You are Town.
Win Condition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.
Not voting: IonMatrix, IcyTea31, Naturegir1999, Pooka, TricMagic
Votes to extend: ---
Day Three ends on 2019-10-29 21:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 2 votes.
Not voting: IonMatrix, Naturegir1999, Persus13, TricMagic
IonMatrix: IcyTea31 (1)
Votes to extend: ---
Day Three ends on 2019-10-29 21:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 2 votes.
Naturegirl would have killed Pooka.Why is that, exactly? She was asking him to stay. In fact, she probably wouldve killed dolores due to aggressiveness.
Scum would likely keep me around since I have acted scummy, if I were jailed, there would likely be a kill, unless scum didn’t kill that night to make it look like scum was jailed.What the fuck is this, and how does that prove anything? How does it make sense at all actually?
Alright, Im gonna press you tommoro because I am absolutely wiped out from homework. But, do tell me who you wouldve nightkilled if you were scum and why, NaturegirlHad I been scum, I would have killed the one who claimed jailkeeper, as one cannot jail themselves. If scum knows that a town player is seen as scum, they wouldn’t kill said town player as suspicion would be on a town player. If scum knows that said town player would be jailed, they could choose not to kill next night, causing town to think that the jailed one is the scum.
Oh yes, and a read list too.
FALSE EDIT:Scum would likely keep me around since I have acted scummy, if I were jailed, there would likely be a kill, unless scum didn’t kill that night to make it look like scum was jailed.What the fuck is this, and how does that prove anything? How does it make sense at all actually?
I'm only finding you more suspicous
IonmatrixSo, you are going to counter vote the person who said you are scum.witha BLANK POST EXCEPT THE VOTE? OMGUS,piggy-backing on other peoples ideas, all in one. You dont even have a case against me, do you?
I'm going to go with IonMatrix for now to break the tie. Naturegirl certainly could be scum, but Ion seems more likely.An explanation would be swell, good sir.
Naturegirl and Tric: Are you going to vote today or hope other people do the heavy lifting for you?
Its mainly gut, desire not to end the day with a tied vote, and Naturegirl definitely gives the impression of trying to be helpful if not quite being successful.I'm going to go with IonMatrix for now to break the tie. Naturegirl certainly could be scum, but Ion seems more likely.An explanation would be swell, good sir.
Naturegirl and Tric: Are you going to vote today or hope other people do the heavy lifting for you?
Not voting: ---
IonMatrix: IcyTea31, Naturegirl1999, Persus13, TricMagic (4)
Naturegirl1999: IonMatrix (1)
Votes to extend: IonMatrix (1)
Day Three ends on 2019-10-29 21:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 2 votes.
Not voting: ---
IonMatrix: IcyTea31, Naturegirl1999, Persus13, TricMagic (4)
Naturegirl1999: IonMatrix (1)
Votes to extend: ---
Day Three ends on 2019-10-31 21:00 EST.
Extension is available, requiring 2 votes.
IonMatrix, you really aren't making any use of the time. Trying to run down some sort of clock, or just giving up and hoping we switch?To be fair, he's said before he can only post once a day, and he's in China.
Not voting: ---
IonMatrix: IcyTea31, Naturegirl1999, Persus13, TricMagic (4)
Naturegirl1999: IonMatrix (1)
Votes to extend: ---
Day Three ends on 2019-10-31 21:00 EST.
The day has ended.
You are an XCOM soldier, recently recruited into the clandestine organization. Like the other recruits, you represent the best of the entire world, all gathered into an elite strike force dedicated to combating alien black ops. When the assault came, you fought to hold the line, barely making it out with your life.
Unfortunately, your recent recruitment has cast doubt on your loyalty to the cause. Orders came down from the top, isolating you and eight other recruits in a sealed off wing of the new base. There's food, water, and rooms to sleep in, but if there really are traitors among you, then none of you have any time to waste...
You are Town.
Win Condition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.
Not voting: IcyTea31, Naturegirl1999, Persus13, TricMagic (4)
Votes to extend: ---
Day Four ends on 2019-11-6 00:30 EST.
Extensions are available, requiring 2 votes.
It's MYLO, so don't vote unless you're completely sure you've got the right one. I'd like to know who the JK targeted, as that person either is scum or was targeted by scum.That just means if we get this wrong we have to rely on me to block the right person.
Not voting: IcyTea31, Persus13, TricMagic (3)
TricMagic: Naturegirl1999 (1)
Votes to extend: ---
Day Four ends on 2019-11-6 00:30 EST.
Extensions are available, requiring 2 votes.
Will this really be the result of silence?Alternatively, we could lynch no one. We're kindof at MyLo right now.
Here is a plan if you think me the mafia, cause if you're wrong, you're likely lose.
Naturegirl is lynched. Then you jail me again. In such a case, if Naturegirl isn't Mafia you have a 50% chance to win tomorrow.
Meanwhile, lynching me today still means you have a 50% chance of Victory if you pick the right person out of two. Though obviously less certainty. I am perfectly willing to die, just make sure to jail Mafia this night.
Not voting: IcyTea31, Persus13, TricMagic (3)
Naturegirl1999: TricMagic (1)
TricMagic: Naturegirl1999 (1)
Votes to extend: ---
Day Four ends on 2019-11-6 00:30 EST.
The day has ended.
Not voting: IcyTea31, Naturegirl1999, Persus13, TricMagic (4)
Votes to extend: ---
Day Four ends on 2019-11-13 9:00 EST.
Extensions are available, requiring 2 votes.
Guess who I blocked again last night!
TricMagic. Shorten.
Both times you were blocked, there was no kill. If able, wouldn’t the Mafia kill the Jailer?Guess who I blocked again last night!
TricMagic. Shorten.
I'll say this is a fallacy, as I made no action last night. Simply cause you decided to block me, does not mean I am Mafia. It simply means Mafia may have decided to lay low, as killing you would likely free me from suspicion.
Naturegirl
Not voting: ---
TricMagic: IcyTea31, Naturegirl1999, Persus13 (3)
Naturegirl1999: TricMagic (1)
Votes to extend: ---
The day has ended.
You are the perfected form of the "thin man", a reptilian species undergoing heavy genetic modification to infiltrate and sabotage the human populace. Unlike many of your brethren, you blend in seamlessly with humans, a feature which made you perfect for the most important job of all: bringing down XCOM.
When the base was evacuated, XCOM made a crucial mistake. The device your fellow infiltrator used to contact the Elders was mixed in with other equipment and brought to the new site, and with everything in disarray now is the perfect time to strike. Unfortunately, you have both been caught up in a sweep to find the traitors within XCOM, sequestered away in a locked section of the base until your guilt can be determined. If enough of them were to die, though, perhaps you might find an opening to sneak away...
You are Mafia. You have access to the shared night kill of your faction. You may talk privately with your ally [In a secret topic held on Quicktopic.com which will be visible to only you and your ally.]
Win Condition: You win when the town faction has equal or less players than your faction.
I thought you did a good job. Could have been a bit more forthcoming on vote counts, but that's it. Most of the problems with the game were related to player activity or lack of.After D1 stayed open for almost 48 hours longer than it was supposed to with no explanation I was seriously thinking the game had just been scrapped
It was fun, I tried to help.You're the only player who really stuck through the whole game and the only one of the 'newbie' players who actually did enough work for people to get a read on you (tric's lategame scumposting notwithstanding). Could definetly put out more volume, but it's incrediably hard to do so in as anemic an environment as most of this game had, especially with how a lot of the big D1 case was founded on established metaplay
In retrospect, I should have spotted tric D1. I was distracted by pooka's copposting and lost sight of the fact that sometimes, outright scummy behavior actually does come from scum.