Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Toady One on February 26, 2009, 05:06:40 pm
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There was interest in another thread about adding some additional organization to the suggestion forum to allow people to build on heavily-discussed topics more easily. That thread is here:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=30910.0
It starts off discussing a different problem, but the discussion continues to forum organization. Please do not discuss flaming new posters or anything like that here, unless it specific relates to forum organization.
The current suggestion is to use the wiki as a place to summarize and link to various threads on heavily discussed topics. Actual suggestions would not be posted there (a wiki is not a good place for my dev notes to refer to -- if I want to come back to something in a few months, it might be gone). Granite26 put together an initial mockup (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/User:Granite26/Suggestions) with an idea of how it might be done.
Another note: Subforums are hampered by the broken search function (it won't search subforums from suggestions). Having a few subforums for heavily-discussed topics that are pretty clearly their own thing like "magic" is possible. As long as all actual suggestions remain somewhere on the forum, the system works for me, so whatever you guys think will improve your ability to continue discussions and build on old suggestions is fine, provided it is fully discussed and whatever objections are raised.
If there is no further movement on this topic, that's fine as well. I am responding to a perceived need that has been touched upon in one direction or another by several people. If these people are sufficiently interested, and there is further movement and something is created on the wiki, I will change this thread into a link to whatever that new construct might be for easy reference.
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I revised it a bit more to add the list from Fellwood's threads.
I also added in a symbol for linking to Eternal Suggestions Voting to indicate a given idea is on that list.
The goal for the page is that it should take someone a minute or two to skim the list. I'd recomend a 5 repeat minimum to put a thread in the common area, and a 20 return minimum for the top area (20 returns on the keyword listed.)
What's the thought on a forum suggestion header that encourages necromancy for this particular board? Toady, it sounds like you favor short and sweet, front loaded suggestions to long merits and flaws threads. Would you prefer that someone with a 'here's a different way of accomplishing this' idea append that to a previous discussion or just start a new 'X has been discussed, but what about X WITH Y!?!?' thread? Doesn't matter too much to us (although new repliers are just as bad as new OPs for repeating threads, IMHO) Maybe encourage Necro-linking? (Post a new thread but link to the old discussion in the OP)
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Well, a few sub-fora on a selected few clear topics seems like a good way to start to me. I'd think that
* Magic
* Combat/Military
are two obvious candidates. We could start off with those and see as we go what other candidates, if any, are suitable.
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We shouldn't cart magic off into its own forum as it is too vague for the average user and including that there arn't all that many magic topics anyhow.
If I see any subforums there BETTER be significant number of people creating that suggestion. Dealing with forum EXPLOSION clutter is far worse in my mind then occasionally dealing with at most 3 magic topics on the first page.
I like the fact that when I go to the forums I can click anywhere I want to go without scrolling down. (Mind you... not quite anymore due to the Various Nonsense forum explosion... but I don't go there anymore anyhow for the that very reason)
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You might want to take a glance at how this is organized: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Category:Commonly_Discussed_Ideas
That's a whole wiki category that indexes forum threads about ideas that are frequently suggested in that game. Right now people tend to cite the dev goals and say "yeah, that's already on there as Core1234" or whatever, but when you go look up Core1234, it doesn't have informative links to the places it's been discussed on the forum.
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That's a good idea, Kanddak. How do they decide what gets it's own category? (there's a name for this in statistics, but I can't remember what it is. It's to do with multiple regression....?)
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Anyhow I am back... Since I last posted 7 topics have new posts
They are
-Underground Diversity
-Surgery/Medicine
-Immigrant Requests
-Skills: Effects and skill transferance
-New Suggestion: Cleanliness Preference
-Iron Pyrite
-Racial Poison Resistance
Alright... So there we go... Those are the current Topics people are creating.
It is important to note.
As for Kanddak... Those arn't subforums to my knowledge and is a job for the Wiki and not Toady.
ERRR I wish I could be more constructive... Sorry
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We shouldn't cart magic off into its own forum as it is too vague for the average user and including that there arn't all that many magic topics anyhow.
It's pointless to create a magic subforum right now, however imagine what's gonna happen when Toady will start to work on the Magic Arc someday. I suppose, that we will need to have a magic subforum when that happens. :D
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We shouldn't cart magic off into its own forum as it is too vague for the average user and including that there arn't all that many magic topics anyhow.
It's pointless to create a magic subforum right now, however imagine what's gonna happen when Toady will start to work on the Magic Arc someday. I suppose, that we will need to have a magic subforum when that happens. :D
Lets deal with it then.
Mind you... that when that happens the game will be far into Version 2 and the forums are bound to be popular enough to warrent forum splits at that time.
Also mind you... that is... Years away or possibly will never happen.
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You might want to take a glance at how this is organized: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Category:Commonly_Discussed_Ideas
That's a whole wiki category that indexes forum threads about ideas that are frequently suggested in that game. Right now people tend to cite the dev goals and say "yeah, that's already on there as Core1234" or whatever, but when you go look up Core1234, it doesn't have informative links to the places it's been discussed on the forum.
Issues I see with that: The lack of keywords means that people will have trouble doing a visual search. I have no idea what people are talking about in those.
Basically short descriptions and keywords.
The other key is strict up-front rules about what goes in. Most of the previous linked list go down in flames when they collapse under their own weight. Most suggestions don't need a listing at all.
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We shouldn't cart magic off into its own forum as it is too vague for the average user ...
What alternative-universe forum are you perusing? Have you noticed what kind of game DF is? People that would find "magic" too vague wouldn't be able to even start Dwarf Fortress, those playing this game tends to be a far cry above the drooling masses. Self-selection at its best.
... and including that there arn't all that many magic topics anyhow. If I see any subforums there BETTER be significant number of people creating that suggestion. Dealing with forum EXPLOSION clutter is far worse in my mind then occasionally dealing with at most 3 magic topics on the first page.
There are quite a few number of good threads on magic and a fair amount of shorter ones. There are 300 pages of suggestions, you know. Having the threads about magic in one place would mean it being easier to find them as well as being easier to see what has already been suggested and continue an existing discussion. That a thread (or topic) isn't at the front page atm isn't an indication that it doesn't deserve a sub-forum, in fact, in an highly active forum it could just the opposite BE a clue to that it would benefit from a sub-forum because it would reduce thread redundancy.
Also, as far as I see you're the only one talking about a "forum explosion", Toady mentioned "a few select topics" (or a wording to that effect) and I suggested two sub-fora that would be well populated. This seems reasonable and a realistic solution to the current level of the issue.
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I'll throw my vote in for a few sub forums about key topics. It only makes sense that we can expect more productive discussion on a topic if all the references are collected in one place.
Magic and Combat are great choices.
Other topics that might benefit: Religion, WorldGen, Agriculture, Game Balance Issues, and anything Toady would like us, as the community, to brainstorm about.
I'm for anything that would help reduce the tension level of this forum.
Edit: now that I have had a chance to read some of the absolutely childish squabbling in the 3-4 threads Toady has redirected here, I know have to say: Toady we need mods. The only problem is that 99% of the people that would want the job are entirely unworthy of it. I can personally think of only one I would nominate...active in the community, knowledgeable about DF, cool headed, usually has something constructive to say, easy to get along with....but something inside tells me Granite26 would not want to be a mod.
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Edit: now that I have had a chance to read some of the absolutely childish squabbling in the 3-4 threads Toady has redirected here, I know have to say: Toady we need mods. The only problem is that 99% of the people that would want the job are entirely unworthy of it. I can personally think of only one I would nominate...active in the community, knowledgeable about DF, cool headed, usually has something constructive to say, easy to get along with....but something inside tells me Granite26 would not want to be a mod.
We'd be lucky to talk him into being head editor of a wiki, but we'd be very lucky indeed.
I, for one, would love to see the Index and Summary concepts grow to fruition under his capable guidance.
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I have been moderator and admin of many places and the basic truth is: you don't want to be one. It is thankless and frustrating work, and imposes harsh limitations on your own freedom of expression. Also, you're damned beforehand because any intervention you make will piss someone off.
That said, this forum WOULD need some glorified janitors to split, merge and sticky threads.
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What alternative-universe forum are you perusing? Have you noticed what kind of game DF is? People that would find "magic" too vague wouldn't be able to even start Dwarf Fortress, those playing this game tends to be a far cry above the drooling masses. Self-selection at its best
What forum in an alternative universe have you been to?
People lump ANYTHING and EVERYTHING into magic.
Thus it is too vague.
"Other topics that might benefit: Religion, WorldGen, Agriculture, Game Balance Issues"
WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!
Agriculture is much too narrow
WorldGen is good nothing to say here other then it could get a better name since most/all aspects of World Gen leak into the game.
Religion isn't going to be dealt with for a very long time... It doesn't get enough posts yet.
Game Balance, Too vague and it will only cause Forum wars with "Balancing Arrows goes in Game balance not combat stupid! FLAME WAR!"
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No need for strident arguments in the sticky. Please adopt neutral tones and cut the rhetorical questions or whatever you want to call them.
What's the thought on a forum suggestion header that encourages necromancy for this particular board? Toady, it sounds like you favor short and sweet, front loaded suggestions to long merits and flaws threads. Would you prefer that someone with a 'here's a different way of accomplishing this' idea append that to a previous discussion or just start a new 'X has been discussed, but what about X WITH Y!?!?' thread? Doesn't matter too much to us (although new repliers are just as bad as new OPs for repeating threads, IMHO) Maybe encourage Necro-linking? (Post a new thread but link to the old discussion in the OP)
Yeah, thread necromancy (as opposed to necro-linking) has the slight added problem of the date jump in the series of posts which can be very, very confusing, especially if it jumps from 2D or 3D or something like that in the overall discussion. In any case it's always one thread being brought up top by it or by a new topic. Necro-linking is probably best. I could add a note in that direction.
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Currently I am just confused to as the point of this Topic
I thought it was a topic about splitting up the forums to prevent all those forum suggestions about it (all 5 of them)
So things arn't exactly adding up.
Can someone fill me in?
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What forum in an alternative universe have you been to? People lump ANYTHING and EVERYTHING into magic. Thus it is too vague.
It is unfortunate that threads go off a tangent but in context utterly irrelevant. A thread is about magic, but that someone posts about about bunnies in it does not mean it can't be placed in the magic forum. In fact, if threads were kept apart then they would likely stay more on-topic: it is (partly or fully?) BECAUSE they're in a non-specific kitchen sink suggestions forum that they will stray.
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Posting before really reading the thread in a state that would allow me to comprehend it in a logical fashion.
First, I think a forum like the following might help cut down on repeat threads (if people would at least look at it first)
* Common Idea Forum (READ FIRST)
- Contains megathreads like Underground Diversity and other threads dedicated to discussing a common idea or ideas, such as the common mine cart/move ore suggestion threads. New topics should be rare, and only occur if we see a common trend in suggestions that aren't consolidated yet, but should be. In order to keep discussions on track, I think locking threads when they get long and creating a 'Part 2' thread would be good. [Opens can of worms] Perhaps a moderator or two to remove the obvious off topic posts, and manage locking the bigger threads and creating new ones. (Perhaps restrict new topic creation to mods in this forum?)
And then a couple ideas for how to break up the suggestions forum.
* Suggestions
- The Kitchen Sink. Much the way it is now. Ideas that are already covered in the CIF should be provided a link there, and locked.
+ Core (and Ark?) Expansion (Expansion Discussion?)
- A forum for expanding/adding to Core (and Ark?) game elements.
+ Bloat and Power Goals Expansion (Expansion Discussion?)
- A forum for expanding/adding to Bloat and Power Goal game elements.
+ Eternal Suggestion Discussion
- A forum for discussing the various 'ideas' put up for voting. Overlaps with the 'Common Idea Forum'
+ Fluff Suggestions
- A forum for "I think this would be cool, but other things should be done first". (To vague? Not focused enough? meh.)
+ More subforums from granites list.
- Who knows.
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Another note: Subforums are hampered by the broken search function (it won't search subforums from suggestions)
My question on this, copypasted from my shiny new link repository...
These are types of forums that we do not actually have yet, so how do we know this is the case?
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^^^ Huh? Try using the top right search bar in Forum Games & Roleplaying to search for threads in its Roll to Dodge subforum.
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^^^ Huh? Try using the top right search bar in Forum Games & Roleplaying to search for threads in its Roll to Dodge subforum.
Blah. Completely didn't notice that there was a RTD subforum there.
Goes to show just how much I care about those forum games to begin with.
Maybe I should have been clearer: We don't have those kind of forums yet for anything related to DF.
This is the DF suggestions forum, after all.
Oh! That brings up an entirely new subject! Bay12 Suggestions!
All these [FORUM] - suggestions can go there instead.
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How difficult would it be to add tags instead of subfora? And here's the kicker... don't make it mandatory to tag your own thread, but add a mod who can tag threads for people. I know the tagging idea has come up a time or two before, but I have no idea how complicated actually implementing it would be.
I think tagging plus a "common suggestions" forum would work well, with a mod moving common suggestions to the common suggestion forum, and tagging everything else.
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When someone makes a thread about mine carts or whatever, the mantra is "this has already been discussed, here are the two or three huge threads that we already had about it, we don't need more threads about it", so I don't see what the point of making topic-specific subforums would be, since they would be places designated for making more threads about things that we don't need more threads about. Do we really need that?
And if subforums break searches, then you can't search for all the things that have been said about mine carts, and you can't find out what's been said by reading the mine carts megathread, because now we have a whole forum full of threads about different aspects of mine carts, which may be redundant because their posters couldn't search either.
I'm not convinced this would actually serve to make things more organized.
I'd rather do things that streamline the process of finding out what suggestions are common. In addition to or instead of a wiki-based index of important threads about common topics, it might be nice to have a "commonly suggested ideas, read before posting" sticky thread, posted by some community-minded volunteer, stickied by Toady, then edited to stay up-to-date by the aforementioned volunteer. Yeah, that kind of indexing will take work, and controversial editorial decisions about what ideas deserve inclusion, but that would make things more organized. Adding more complexity by splitting things up into a maze of subforums is something Toady could do with less work (if possibly no less controversial editorial decisions), but it would not make things more organized on its own.
I'd also see some potential in strictly janitorial moderators, who don't ban people or intervene in disputes or otherwise engage in dramatic assertions of authority that stir up discontent, but just go to redundant threads and paste some kind of "Welcome to the DF forums. Your idea's been posted before and discussed at length, check out these threads: (links taken from common-suggestions sticky list)" boilerplate message, and then lock the thread so that it doesn't keep getting bumped and attracting a crowd.
We have a sticky thread for the cat bug in the bug reports forum and there's no reason it shouldn't work the same way for the most common suggestions. Come to think of it, Gameplay Questions could use the same kind of thing. I've been paying attention to it this week and it seems like every day there is a brand new "I can't get the hang of the game because in every fort I suddenly get a hundred migrants in my second year, what do I do?" thread.
It seems like similar mechanisms could be used to better organize Bug Reports, Suggestions, and Gameplay Questions. Take some community nominations for commonly reported non-bugs like when people fiddle with their raws and get indexing errors that turn all their elves into elephants or give them "cancels make steel: need some crazy nonsense material unrelated to steel" messages, commonly suggested ideas, and FAQs like "how do I stop migrants?", and make some sticky threads.
Incidentally this also highlights my issues with the subforums idea. Does anyone think it would really be better organization to set up a system of "to ask questions about construction, use the construction questions subforum; to ask questions about migrants, use the migration questions subforum; to ask questions about fluids, use the oh shit I flooded my fort subforum" and so on?
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Kanddak:
That's a great idea in theory, but the problem is, who would maintain it? The options are either a single OP, or Toady himself, neither of which are a viable solution. The trick is to have a 'common suggestion' thread that is stickied but doesn't rely on a single person to maintain. There's already perfect media for user generated content....
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Has a 'Common Suggestion' page been setup on the wiki? I've just tried to log in, but it isn't taking the password I thought I used, and I can't find the recovery option.
So: Wiki page that anyone can edit that notes all the really common suggestions, with a stickied thread in this forum linking there. Or maybe in the forum header? How about a page that pops up the first time someone tries to make a new topic in this forum? "Hello! I see you're trying to make a new topic! Might wanna just hold off on that for a minute and check this out. If what you want to suggest is already listed, or you see something similar, you might try searching the forum first and using one of the pre-existing threads! You may continue in xx seconds!".
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Here's the link (http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/User:Granite26/Suggestions) the the mock-up I wrote.
Please feel free to move stuff around or use the comment page to make suggestions. I'm going to create a side-bar 'yeah we know' section for 'problems' with DF stemming from the fact that it's still being developed. Basically a list of content that still uses stems rather than full featured functionality (Mounts would be a good example)
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I like it! Although that means its up to the players to actually read it.
It does take hte burden off of Toady to shift through things. Kudos for the good idea! Kudos all around.
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I'm for maybe having a general Bay12Games Forum thread for companywide concerns/suggestions, and things like donation inquiries, interviews, important news, and what have you, stickied at the very top of the Forum, and which could include an extensive set of FAQs for the Forum, for DF, for other Bay12 games, etc.
I think it would be a nice professional touch, and might make for a good starting point for new people, and even guests, to familiarize themselves with the Forum.
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Just so people know what ideas are being accepted by toady, thought about or definitely out, could we get someone to go through and put a tick, question mark or cross beside each topic to see if it is alright or just silly.
Sorry Toady/Threetoe.
Am I in the right place?
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Just so people know what ideas are being accepted by toady, thought about or definitely out, could we get someone to go through and put a tick, question mark or cross beside each topic to see if it is alright or just silly.
Sorry Toady/Threetoe.
Am I in the right place?
Eh...this is in the dev pages kind of.
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i would like to request a new subforum for megaproject discussion, ideas, and pictures
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I haven't been following the DF discussion board as closely as I'd have liked, but I see it's active enough to at least consider making a subforum. Are megaprojects the main thing that's filling up the front page? What is the reason for this particular split?
For that matter, the modding forum seems to have filled up as well, meaning that it has as many active topics as DF discussion and that they go off my (possible extended) first page.
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The modding board seems to be split between questions about modding, and mod-projects, themselves. It might be nice to see a division there, especially considering that mods themselves can be difficult enough to locate, as it is (For that matter, a stickied complete list of mods, with links and description to each mod, would be nice.).
The suggestions board doesn't seem to really have an obvious natural splits. It's very active, but doesn't seem to concentrate on any one subject over another.
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The distinction between a megaproject and other fortresses is very...
blurry.
The forum could use a forum division between group and private fortresses.
Group fortresses are passed around, like passing the buck.
Private fortress make mega projects far more often, and aren't shared amoung lots of people.
And of course, each would have their own forum.
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The modding board seems to be split between questions about modding, and mod-projects, themselves.
This would seem to be one of the better ideas.
Another thought would be splitting off graphic sets, but that might be too much.
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The modding board seems to be split between questions about modding, and mod-projects, themselves.
This would seem to be one of the better ideas.
Another thought would be splitting off graphic sets, but that might be too much.
I would say either split it between mods and questions or split it between aesthetic and functional mods.
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Forum seems like a crap way to track good mods. Perhaps we should leverage the eternal suggestion list and put a copy over there. Everybody can put up their mods (along with a link to the forum post about it, inc link to download), and people can vote on their five favorite mods (I'd prefer 1-5 stars for each and give the avg, but we've got the voting page already). That would auto-sort the mods by what was high quality. New mods would be active in the forums, so they'd get advertised that way. No worries that they were relegated to the bottom of the voting list.
My opinion, at any rate
P.S. Maybe separate into 'mods' and 'graphics packs'
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I haven't been following the DF discussion board as closely as I'd have liked, but I see it's active enough to at least consider making a subforum. Are megaprojects the main thing that's filling up the front page? What is the reason for this particular split?
For that matter, the modding forum seems to have filled up as well, meaning that it has as many active topics as DF discussion and that they go off my (possible extended) first page.
sorry about the delay in posting, forgot i made this suggestion.
what im talking about is an 'advanced fortress' discussion board, where things like casting an ice castle or such are discussed, and people can talk about their ideas for projects and such. ive done a few projects in my time, but i always seem to get bogged down on them at some point and need help, and necroing old threads and trying to search for details on one specific way of doing things doesnt work ethier, and having to make a NEW post every time i need some help sucks too.
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Who's currently managing the Wiki? Anyone?
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The modding board seems to be split between questions about modding, and mod-projects, themselves.
This would seem to be one of the better ideas.
Another thought would be splitting off graphic sets, but that might be too much.
I would say either split it between mods and questions or split it between aesthetic and functional mods.
I think splitting into modding questions (any), graphics mods, and content mods would be fine.
Forum seems like a crap way to track good mods. Perhaps we should leverage the eternal suggestion list and put a copy over there. [snip]
This also seems like a good idea.
sirhoneybadger: I forget. They posted that they'd like someone to take it off their hands, though.
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If you dont like rants, you can stop reading now. ;)
Sadly, I hate forums. They truly are a thing of the past. Like basic html, it can do everything... everything in a really crude way. Choose whatever specialized system you want and it will probably do a better job. "The right tool for the right job", remember?
The PHP based voting system is the best thing IMO thats happened to this forum. If not the wiki. Im looking at the vote code right now for ways to improve it.
If I would have my way (god forbid), I would use something like GetSatisfaction (http://GetSatisfaction) for ideas, bug reports and praise (since thats what the systems intended for). Some open source variant of StackOverflow (http://stackoverflow.com) for questions-and-answers, something that system is intended for. The Wiki (http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Main_Page) for documentation, because, again, its a system designed specifically for that task and IMO does it way better than any forum will ever hope for.
So what is a forum for then? Maybe the social aspect (something we must not forget). For newcomers that thinks forums is the only way to communicate over the internet. To point out the various special systems in case some content belonging somewhere else ends up here. The information hub of sorts maybe.
The forum has gotten so active that were all suffering from information overload. Its the very reason for this thread and its discussion. No one is allowed to suggest anything, because everything has been said at least once, and no one can find any statement about anything because a brutal majority of the content found through searches ends with the simple conclusion that "its been suggested before".
Yes, I do challenge you all. I dont believe this problem can ever be solved with traditional forums, being the stone age technology that they really are, alone. However, being a great enthusiast of communication (both by design and the psychological aspect) this is a very interesting discussion and I would like to be proven wrong.
Now get to it.
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A forum is for an exchange of ideas. Bug reports etc. would indeed be served better with a more formal way of submitting and automated checking whether they already exist.
It's not bad per se that some things are mentioned again from time to time. The program changes. The vision of the developer changes. The player base changes. Fashion changes. What was cool three years ago can be trivial, tasteless, surpassed or long since implemented now. All the discussion about gunpowder for example have made clear that there are two important schools of thought on dwarves and gunpowder, one of which can get its steampunk fix elsewhere, while the other is attracted to DF precisely because of its greater attention to internal consistency. In other words, the discussion between players is very valuable and makes design choices visible that wouldn't show from their collected suggestions. The sum of all suggestion will not necessarily please everyone that made the suggestions.
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No one is allowed to suggest anything, because everything has been said at least once
I can find plenty of things to suggest. Heck I am going to continue my Artifact suggestion thread once I feel the inspiration.
My Three suggestions in the works are:
1) Transformation/Regeneration mechanics: which will focus on a frame by frame on the many cues and changes that go with them
2) Randomised Features: basically features that Sphere-type randomised creatures can develop.
3) NPC Interaction During a Quest: Focuses on the aid NPCs will give you before, and a bit of after, you complete and important quest.
I could post 2 of 3 of them as they are but I want to pad them out.
This is of course excluding the suggestions I've made but never followed through due to the tons of work it involved in explaining. There are two I remember
1) Spherical Land mechanics
2) Sanity, Psychosis, Neurosis, and eventual Insanity Mechanics
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Hey Neonivek can I post in that thread now please?
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Hey Neonivek can I post in that thread now please?
Yeah you could have a while ago.
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Rather than make up a whole new thread for it when it seems relevant to this one - might it be worthwhile to, at the top of this forum where the guidelines are posted, say under the "search for existing thread", note that thread necromancy is not only permitted but encouraged/expected in this forum? I've seen a number of times that people are reluctant to revive old threads - and in many forums it is considered bad etiquette to do so - but, hell, I've seen Toady himself do it, what more confirmation could you ask for that it's the way to go here?
Putting it right on the forum's index page might encourage at least a few more people to find and resurrect an existing thread rather than making a new one - it is a rather nonstandard approach to things, after all, so it's understandable that people would go with the usual and let dead threads lie. Without specific examples to the contrary, I can imagine a lot of people would interpret "Search for an existing thread" as implying that the existing thread be recently active.
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Rather than make up a whole new thread for it when it seems relevant to this one - might it be worthwhile to, at the top of this forum where the guidelines are posted, say under the "search for existing thread", note that thread necromancy is not only permitted but encouraged/expected in this forum? I've seen a number of times that people are reluctant to revive old threads - and in many forums it is considered bad etiquette to do so - but, hell, I've seen Toady himself do it, what more confirmation could you ask for that it's the way to go here?
Putting it right on the forum's index page might encourage at least a few more people to find and resurrect an existing thread rather than making a new one - it is a rather nonstandard approach to things, after all, so it's understandable that people would go with the usual and let dead threads lie. Without specific examples to the contrary, I can imagine a lot of people would interpret "Search for an existing thread" as implying that the existing thread be recently active.
Seconded.
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Yup, that's a decent idea.
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OH Oh something to remember...
That annoying "Has not been posted in in 120 days"warning suggests that thread necromancy is bad.
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OH Oh something to remember...
That annoying "Has not been posted in in 120 days"warning suggests that thread necromancy is bad.
I think that warning is okay. It says "Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days. Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic." And people SHOULD make sure they want to reply -- we don't want people necro'ing threads left and right just to say "I love this idea!"
I think the top of Suggestions should say something like, "Search for an existing thread. (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?action=search2;params=YWR2YW5jZWR8J3wxfCJ8YnJkfCd8NXwifHNob3dfY29tcGxldGV8J3x8InxzdWJqZWN0X29ubHl8J3x8Inxzb3J0X2RpcnwnfGRlc2N8Inxzb3J0fCd8cmVsZXZhbmNlfCJ8c2VhcmNofCd8) Feel free to revive an old thread as long as you have a contribution to make."
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I agree with you, Footkerchief, but CobaltKobold does a point, in that it could be a bit less off-putting. I don't know that your statement about feeling free to reviving an old thread goes quite far enough.
It would be great to have that at the top of Suggestions, but the 120 day warning could still use a little softening, beyond it.
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Even if the warning can't be toned down / altered for this particular forum - especially in that case, actually - a note at the top of the forum that thread necromancy is the way to go if you have an actual contribution to make could be a good idea.
That same warning crops up elsewhere, and carries the connotation "don't post here unless you've got a really pressing reason to do so". Assuming that forum newcomers will see that same message and get the forum-specific subtext of "and contributing to the suggestion is a pressing reason" isn't exactly fair to them.
And to argue it from another direction - what would it hurt? Tangential thread necromancy may still be less of a nuisance to sort through than the same idea being brought up 10 times because the original thread(s) went stale.
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Agreed, Shurhaian. 8)
Maybe it should say "Please do post here unless you have a really pressing reason NOT to"
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That's a little silly.
"I posted here 'cause I had free time!"
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Something that gives more balance to the equation, anyway.
Something that embraces the new theory that necroing threads isn't necessarily a vile, sinful act to be ashamed of.
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Ideas about df page organisation.
Toady, why won't you post link to df wiki on download page? I know it is included in build-in help, but when people see Dwarf Fortress first time, they are confused, and finding help ain't seem that obvious.
Why(if ever, say, Stonesense could get an interface hack, and people can actually play, not just visualize df in it) won't post link to, say, Stonesense thread and screenshots on df download page? It could make df much more popular, because first impression always the biggest one and colourfull nes-like graphics impress people much more then ascii(thought i, personally, prefer ascii).
And more people means more ideas, more mods, more donations.
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I think it would be a good idea to have a way to disable the posts of others, on an individual basis. So that one could go through and "turn off" trolling posts and the like, making them invisible. I think that would save some otherwise decent threads that occasionally get overwhelmed by Off Topic and other unnecessary posts.
Note that I'm not suggesting imposed moderation, only an option to self-moderate.
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Does that just mean each person can prevent themselves from seeing certain posts? The people with the self-control to click "Ignore" on a post are the ones with the self-control to, you know, ignore a post the normal way. By the way, it would require major modifications to the forum software and it's probably not feasible -- from a database standpoint, the worst-case situations are heinous.
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It's not about self-control, it's about cleaning up a mess to improve the appearance.
If you have the kind of "self-control" that simply makes you blind to things you'd rather pretend aren't there, you probably have a really messy house.
I don't see wearing rose-coloured glasses as a concrete or viable solution to a technical problem.
As far as it being an enormous technical hurdle, YouTube offers it, and they don't even have a real Forum. I can't imagine that whoever codes YouTube's very limited message board can outdo ToadyOne.
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My suggestion: a mix of some of these concepts.
Rule set:
- Use this forum instead of a Wiki.
- Every thread is required to have a tag leading the subject, such as:
DAMAGE: Piercing vs blunt vs slashing
or DAMAGE: Falling into water / magma
- All allowed tags are listed in a sticky. New tags can be proposed in the sticky.
Adding proposed tags to the allowed list would be all the absolutely required moderator action.
Everyone inventing their own tags as they go is silly because it defeats the purpose of a successful search for specific items.
- The forum description (both on the main listing and in the forum) encourages "discussion" instead of merely contributing ideas. That always gets out of hand.
See "Stay on topic".
- Searching for existing threads on the same subject is mandatory.
- Thread necromancy is mandatory if a previous thread covers the same subject or a "sufficiently close" variation.
(some margin for error there but this is designed as useful, not perfect)
Items applying to "old versions" is a concern but if people stick to concepts and ideas, these stay valid throughout all versions of DF. Even if suggestions have already been partially implemented, there will always be parts that can be reused later.
Discussions about features of the current/upcoming/whatever version... should stick to the discussion forums.
- One idea / concept / suggestion per thread.
While it's commendable that people have often tried to summarize whole pages of ideas, multi-topic posts are pretty useless to a developer looking for something specific.
(It's unlikely that Toady will run out of optional wishlist items anytime soon.)
And there wont be a MULTI: tag because it defeats the whole purpose of finding specific items. =)
That also means: No thread drift. No chatter.
There is no harm in discussing an idea in a chatter forum and then posting the summary here.
Instead of lumping loosely related ideas into one thread it can be helpul to merely include a link to the thread containing the "related issue".
- Stay on topic.
This should be implied by the previous post but it's a very very difficult concept for many.
Here (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=49952) you can see trolls derailing a thread with off-topic posts while not even trying to enhance or improve upon the proposed feature.
Unproductive.
- Sometimes, items will invariably touch several other items, such as weapon damage being related to materials.
Pick tag that applies closest.
If not possible, propose new tag and post your idea when it's been approved.
If it can't wait a day or two, it probably was some embarrassingly harebrained scheme anyway.
With the tags a limited quantity and with a descriptive subject, the thread can still be found since Toady isn't stupid, either.
- You have a good idea? Be clear and concise in the explanation. Think it through.
That the player can understand a new feature is fine but how would the AI understand and cope with it? How does it affect the rest of the game?
A lot of my own ideas looked good on paper until I put them in context and started considering the aftereffects.
- The locals 'round here don't seem to be an unreasonable bunch and can certainly see the value of some organisation so the system would most likely work without having an iron fisted moderator to enforce these rules.
Still, it should be made very clear that failure to comply with such simple rules will get the thread deleted without any warning or notice.
Now, whether this is actually enforced or not is probably irrelevant. Noone likes the idea of their valuable contribution being deleted just because they were too lazy to look up a proper tag. =)
Now I know that I'm sounding like some forum nazi but if your suggestions are worth being read, they should also be structured so that they can be found when needed.
Otherwise - why would you go to the trouble of posting them?
The list above is too long for "simple rules" but that's because of the reasoning and explanation. Just the rules would be very slim.
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Some good ideas here.
Frankly, I don't enjoy the idea of having to follow some kind of mandatory "tag glossary", but on the other hand, it might possibly make the Search function useful (it's currently crap).
Just having a stickied list of topics that have threads associated with them already-and links to those threads-might do as well as tags, however.
I have no idea what you mean about using this forum instead of a wiki? Giving the Forum stronger ties to the Wiki might not be a bad idea, however. The problem being that the DF Wiki is an independent project from Bay12.
Having posts deleted is probably not going to happen. It hasn't happened in all the years this Forum has been around, that I've ever noticed, and certainly if ToadyOne went to the trouble of deleting something, it wasn't just because it wasn't clearly labeled, or anything like that. As an empty threat, I suppose it might have some use as a deterrant for casual posters.
Everyone suggests searching be mandatory. Let me restate that the Search function is currently crap. Maybe not entirely useless (and some people insist it's the best thing since sliced bread), but difficult to use compared to many, many other search engines, imprecise, and inaccurate when it does work. Partly because of the nature of the Forum in it's current state, which the current Search engine can't cope with. So make it mandatory, but I doubt that will fix a lot of problems.
This being the Internet, there will always be thread drift. There have been some efforts towards real thread Naziism, to prevent that, but they always seem to become more disruptive and ugly and extremist than the "drift" itself.
For that matter, "discussion" is a good thing. I'm pretty certain that the social nature of the Forum not only helps generate contributions (I know I'd rather give money to my friends' projects, than to a faceless corporation), it also helps maintain that "reasonability" that we apparently have here, since on some level everybody knows everybody a little bit.
The one idea per thread is a really good idea. Mandatory spellcheck would also be nice. I don't know why thread necromancy is even still an issue? Topicality doesn't really seem to be too much of a big deal, unless you're talking specifically about version history.
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Frankly, I don't enjoy the idea of having to follow some kind of mandatory "tag glossary", but on the other hand, it might possibly make the Search function useful
I'm not overly keen on using someone else's filing system, either, but this way it would be Toady's call, which tags are significant and which aren't.
Something that looks like a unique topic to us might (codeside) be a trivial sideshow or conglomerate of other features that doesn't... fit.
And the whole point of the forum is to serve the master - not me and not you.. =)
The system I proposed would require little to no moderation. Probably none at all once a sufficient number of tags exist.
That's basically the key point. Doability.
Improved (not perfect) structure and searchability at a very low cost.
Yes, a Wiki can be more powerful/structured but potentially grows in all kinds of directions and some of that growth can turn out cancerous, overlapping multiple pages or otherwise mudding up the searchability.
It's also a lot more volatile because everyone can delete/replace content they personally disagree with.
Besides, a Wiki is far less simple to operate than forum posts. I've heard some good ideas from creative people who were practically tech-illiterate. Building any artificial elitist barriers doesn't serve the purpose.
Everyone suggests searching be mandatory. Let me restate that the Search function is currently crap.
...
So make it mandatory, but I doubt that will fix a lot of problems.
I don't expect it to work perfectly all of a sudden.
I don't even expect such a rule being observed all the time.
It's just another wording for: "For the love of god at least try to search for an existing thread!"
It just works better when barked in a stern command voice. =P
Realistically, any rule that cannot be inforced is pointless... and there is no way to check if someone did search or not.
Still... having such a rule will do some good - if only for the psychological effect.
Just having a stickied list of topics that have threads associated with them already-and links to those threads-might do as well as tags, however.
That requires moderator action (a precious commodity round here =) for every single thread, cataloging and adding them to the sticky thread.
For that matter, "discussion" is a good thing. I'm pretty certain that the social nature of the Forum not only helps generate contributions (I know I'd rather give money to my friends' projects, than to a faceless corporation), it also helps maintain that "reasonability" that we apparently have here, since on some level everybody knows everybody a little bit.
In any "normal" forum I'd totally agree but a suggestion forum should be more curt and to the point.
Nothing wrong with adding to an existing idea but I doubt that a 20 page thread is all ideas.
Friendliness is fine and dandy but having to sift through 19 pages of discussion or chatter is wasting the man's time.
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The modding board seems to be split between questions about modding, and mod-projects, themselves.
This would seem to be one of the better ideas.
Another thought would be splitting off graphic sets, but that might be too much.
I ha'e a better thought. Instead of splitting modding into modding/modquestions, subforum DF Modding with three:
- Graphics/Tilesets
- Actual Game Mods (title WIP, I'm sure better could be made)
- Utilities and Visualisers (could gi'e each their own subforum, alternately)
and, separately but recommendedly, sticky a questions thread in Game Mods and Graphics each.
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In a lot of beta forums they usually split it up into several broad categories, as CK suggested.
The ones that I recall from STO were:
Graphics & UI
Missions
Powers
Combat
General Gameplay
Powers = Skills & Stats
Missions = Jobs & Professions
and you've got a good split. It doesn't have to be strict, but mods can move threads if they feel it's necessary. The point is that a suggestion about adding double-bladed swords doesn't need to be in the same forum as one proposing that there be hidden magma deposits.
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In a lot of beta forums they usually split it up into several broad categories, as CK suggested.
The ones that I recall from STO were:
Graphics & UI
Missions
Powers
Combat
General Gameplay
Powers = Skills & Stats
Missions = Jobs & Professions
and you've got a good split. It doesn't have to be strict, but mods can move threads
Do mind I was talking about the modding forum, not suggestions.
Also, nicely, people can move their own threads in these forums!
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And I was referring to the suggestions forum. Your point?
edit: one thing I'm going to try and do is relate new threads to items in the dev log. So if I want to discuss an item, it would have that name right in the text. Considering that most people don't write out PowergoalXX in the threads, that should make searching easier
IF it's a style that catches on...
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Gazz: If I can understand and edit wikis, than surely the only technical elitist barriers will be between the (more or less) higher primates, and the rest of the animal kingdom. Dolphins, crows, and octopi may involve and sort themselves as they find motivation...
Also, "serving the master" does mean fostering contributions, which is another function this Forum serves. In some fashion, the Forum goes perhaps as far as DF possibly can, towards pleasing everyone, all of the time.
Do mind I was talking about the modding forum, not suggestions.
I believe this was simply for the point of clarification.
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Right, it seemed like you[PraguePride] were counterpointing to my suggestion when we're talking about mostly separate things.
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Hey, I was wondering if it's possible to modify the minimum "normal topic" "hot topic" "very hot topic" counts?
And also, if anyone knows whether this count is determined by how many times *you* have posted, or represents the total number of posts to a given thread?
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Okay, I just discovered this thread and I'm going to give it a bump and see what happens.
It looks like Granite26 had the fantastic idea (in early '09) of using the wiki to help with organizing suggestions. From reading this thread that idea didn't seem to be dismissed by the community but people just sort of stopped talking about it.
I don't know how active Granite is on the forums (hasn't edited the wiki in 3 months) but I personally think there is a lot of merit to this idea and I would definitely be interested in helping to (re)create some sort of index and organization of suggestions on the wiki.
While the wiki can be edited by anyone, it can also be tracked, through the history, by anyone and hopefully the removal of ideas will be an uncommon occurrence. Obviously we'd want to kick it off with the eternal suggestions and then expand on some of the ideas as they are presented in the forum. Another benefit of the wiki is that we can have suggestion categories that we can easily add/remove/merge as it makes sense without hampering Toady in making new forums.
Toady mentioned that it's hard to refer to the wiki in devnotes. Well the "permanent link" on the side will get you that exact page as it was at that time, so you won't ever lose ideas that you think were particularly useful. Of course this will not at all replace this forum. In fact I wouldn't even expect it would have a large impact on duplicate threads, but I'm fairly certain nothing could really fix that. ;)
So if noone else minds, I'd like to bring this thread back to the topic in the OP and discuss the merits and (unless everyone thinks it's stupid) the implementation of a solid suggestions index to assist both Toady, and players looking to see if their idea is unique. Even if it helps with just one of the two though I'd consider it a complete success.
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^^^ It's still a solid idea, in my opinion. I've done some ad-hoc tagging/indexing on the forums, which could hopefully serve as a starting point:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60362.msg1360635#msg1360635
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58502.msg1298463#msg1298463
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58453.msg1297239#msg1297239
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55919.msg1210402#msg1210402
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=54905.msg1184632#msg1184632
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49525.msg1059716#msg1059716
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^^^ It's still a solid idea, in my opinion. I've done some ad-hoc tagging/indexing on the forums, which could hopefully serve as a starting point:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60362.msg1360635#msg1360635
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58502.msg1298463#msg1298463
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58453.msg1297239#msg1297239
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55919.msg1210402#msg1210402
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=54905.msg1184632#msg1184632
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49525.msg1059716#msg1059716
Thanks!
I was really hoping a sticky thread with a new post would get a bunch of responses within 5 days. Maybe another flash of "new" will do it :).
I'm going to start thinking about and implementing this today. I never recieved a response from Granite, but I might drop him a note on his talk page and start work on something on the wiki.
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Proper use of Child Boards could simply fix this problem. Just visit http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php) and you'll know what I mean. (It's a SimCity4 custom content site, and a very well made one at that). Having child boards intergrated inside the main forum index with an eternal topic and a big *** READ FORUM RULES BEFORE POSTING!!! *** title in it.
You could branch everything with this method. Just adding a seperate childs for [Core Game Mecanics Suggestions], [Variety/Flavor Suggestions] and [Main Suggestion/Concerns] would be a big step. This is all just my suggestions here, so don't jump the gun.
Core Game Mecanics could encompass child boards like:
- AI - Auto-vein Mining, Routes/Roads/Hallways, Distances and Access, Job Priorities, etc.
- Tile Value Tracking - Soil Nutrients and Fertilizers, Temperature/Seasons, Cave-ins and Pillar Support, Water/Magma/Sand Algorythms, Irrigation, etc.
- Other Value Tracking - Nutrition(Hunger) and Hydration(Thirst), Creature/Plant Health and Growth, Food Shelflife, Diseases (for creatures and plants alike), etc.
- User Setting Preferences - Uniforms, Kitchen Settings, Economic Stones Settings, Stockpile and Workshop Profiles, Embark Profiles, Save Files, etc.
- Other - FPS Optimizing, Multi-Core and 64-bit, Graphics and Utilities Support, etc.
Variety/Flavor could encompass child boards like:
- Politics - Nobles, Sects/Social Classes/Guilds, Religion, Migrants, Trading and Envoys, Mandates, Justice, etc.
- Economy - Rents, Taxes, Jobs/Pay and Coins, Entertainers, Wenches/Cooks/Service Industry, Shops, etc.
- Creatures & Plants - Megabeats, Wild/Domestic Animals, Pests, Tree-Planting, Weeds, Sugar/Flour/Spices/Herbs/Medecines/Cooking Oil, etc.
- Items - Clothes, Weapons, Armor, Instruments, Pottery, Tapisseries & Carpets, Painting, Potted Plants, Bookshelves, Mecanisms, etc.
- Workshop and Rooms - Bars, Arenas, Stadiums/Sports, Libraires/Schools, Ranches/Milking, Orchards, Oven/Backeries, Charcuteries, Windmills/Pumps/Sprinklers, etc.
- Custom Labors
- Worldgen - Aquifer Settings, Biomes, Evil/Good and Calm/Savage Settings, Custom Stone Layers/Gems/Resources, Cavern Diversity, etc.
- Other - Magic, Alchemy, etc
Main Concerns would encompass child boards regarding one subject, such as:
- Improved Farming
- Military
- Healthcare
- Other - Perceived-as-Bug, Disapointments/Whining,etc.
Within each Main Child Boards, individuals could create a new topic to talk about their whole idea (kinda like a mod suggestion) usually encompassing various subjects, just beneath the Forum Rules sticky.
A fresh start is require for this to work, but I don't think its a bad thing.
With each topic becoming more important, another child board could be added.
Most of these are interchangeable, just put the main idea in the right category and use Quotes/Links for implementation/explanation.
Hope this helps.
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Boards are definitly the right answer for discussions. The part where the wiki shines is letting people know about the common idea threads.
Something like a pro-con discussion about gunpowder or steam, or whatever, to get people up to date on current dev/forummer philosophy.
Hell, maybe even putting the dev notes/ power goals/ etc up on the wiki in 'no edit' form with each line item having a link to it's own page, and that page a link back to the main FoF style discussion for it, along with any major ideas that have come out of discussion.
Personally, I'm a big fan of the layout of my tech thread, where the top is just an outline list of what's been discussed, and the discussion is below it. Making the first post a wiki link would keep 1 person from having to do all the maintaining, and a wiki page supports discussion page rules of what applies and consensus building discussions rather than OP fiat. Kudos to anyone who can figure out how to make the forum post OP pull up the latest text of the wiki as it's text.
Short version: People don't want to read long threads, but a short outline in an accessible place would help newcombers to the topic/browsers without being onerous.
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Some kind of "one thread, one idea, please" and "please clearly label your threads"
notices might be useful in reducing the amount of "hey I've got a great idea of how to improve: farmingminingsmithingwaterwheelsgoblinselvesdomesticatedanimalsgraphicspathingpumps" threads, which tend to be titled "Some Great Ideas!"
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Wanted to post a suggestion for iterative embark searching, but I hesitated similar to how I hesitate when throwing another piece of trash onto an overflowing garbage can...
Hopefully Toady reads this from time to time, but I follow a number of Indie games and have some knowledge about what they're trying. Forgive me if I'm overstepping with my first post here, but this info might help.
A great tool for something like this is Google Moderator. It was basically designed for this.
http://www.google.com/moderator/#0
As far as organizing the suggestion forum, I suggest that you organize it into user conceivable areas such as...
- Map Generation and Embarking
- Building Suggestions
- Monster Suggestions
- In-Game Menu System
- File System, Settings, and Algorithms
- Etc...
Forget about attempting to transfer the already existing suggestions, just create a new board. The popular and important suggestions will find their way over, while the less important (or poorly labeled) suggestions will be lost. A net gain.
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Forget about attempting to transfer the already existing suggestions, just create a new board. The popular and important suggestions will find their way over, while the less important (or poorly labeled) suggestions will be lost. A net gain.
Not a bad point at all. Some suggestions should probably be given special care to migrate over (perhaps the ones that are being voted on), but in the main, the best ideas could simply drift over.
Which ones constitute "best" can be decided as easily as "the ones someone took the trouble to wikify".
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Thanks :)
I do, however, have a remark...
Which ones constitute "best" can be decided as easily as "the ones someone took the trouble to wikify".
Wikis aren't really designed as suggestion boards.
Features that Toady will implement and already has the design mapped out for can be put into a wiki, but wikis don't match the needs of a suggestion system. A great way to do suggestions is by putting them into a message board (forum) into distinguishable groupings (like this thread is attempting).
To post a new suggestion, a user should go to the appropriate subsection and search for that suggestion to see if it has already been posted. These rules should be available via a sticky.
Google Moderator suggestions should have links to suggestion threads perhaps. This way, popular suggestions will be discussed and detailed making it clear and concise for Toady.
The beauty of Google Moderator is that the most popular suggestions bubble to the top, while the least popular get lost in the dogpile.
This system shows your users that you really are building it for them, and that they have a say in how it's built. This is most important to an indie game community, because it keeps them active and excited. :D
(p.s. can anyone link Toady or ThreeToe to this thread?)
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for other latecomers:
the basic layout of the major ideas of this forum (most coherent and updated content, that is)
Ideas:- 1 idea per thread
- Manditory tagline in thread name. ??
- Allowed taglines in a stickied thread, you can add suggestions to it.
- You must stay on-topic (duh)
- You should search for threads with the same idea (duh)
- Be clear an concise in explanation of idea
- (add more that I missed)
Layout:FORUM
Fort Mode Discussion
(will not currently comment, not very clear)
Ideas and Suggestions
- Graphics/UI
- Jobs & Professions
- Skills/Stats
- Combat/Military
- General gameplay
-OR-
(please note that these are examples)
- Core Game Mechanics
- AI
- Tile Value Tracking
- Other Value Tracking
- User Setting Preferences
- Other
- (etc.)
- Variety/Flavor
- Politics (in-game!)
- Economy
- Creatures & Plants (a.k.a. living things)
- Items
- Workshops and Rooms
- Custom Labors
- Worldgen
- Other
- (etc.)
- Main Concerns
- Improved Farming
- Military
- Healthcare
- Other
- Percieved-as-bug
- Whining
- Other other stuff
- (etc.)
Mods
- Graphics/tilesets
- Content mods
- Utilities/Visualisers
Sources:
Warning: In the spoilers lie the actual posts.
Rule set:
<text>
My suggestion: a mix of some of these concepts.
Rule set:
- Use this forum instead of a Wiki.
- Every thread is required to have a tag leading the subject, such as:
DAMAGE: Piercing vs blunt vs slashing
or DAMAGE: Falling into water / magma
- All allowed tags are listed in a sticky. New tags can be proposed in the sticky.
Adding proposed tags to the allowed list would be all the absolutely required moderator action.
Everyone inventing their own tags as they go is silly because it defeats the purpose of a successful search for specific items.
- The forum description (both on the main listing and in the forum) encourages "discussion" instead of merely contributing ideas. That always gets out of hand.
See "Stay on topic".
- Searching for existing threads on the same subject is mandatory.
- Thread necromancy is mandatory if a previous thread covers the same subject or a "sufficiently close" variation.
(some margin for error there but this is designed as useful, not perfect)
Items applying to "old versions" is a concern but if people stick to concepts and ideas, these stay valid throughout all versions of DF. Even if suggestions have already been partially implemented, there will always be parts that can be reused later.
Discussions about features of the current/upcoming/whatever version... should stick to the discussion forums.
- One idea / concept / suggestion per thread.
While it's commendable that people have often tried to summarize whole pages of ideas, multi-topic posts are pretty useless to a developer looking for something specific.
(It's unlikely that Toady will run out of optional wishlist items anytime soon.)
And there wont be a MULTI: tag because it defeats the whole purpose of finding specific items. =)
That also means: No thread drift. No chatter.
There is no harm in discussing an idea in a chatter forum and then posting the summary here.
Instead of lumping loosely related ideas into one thread it can be helpul to merely include a link to the thread containing the "related issue".
- Stay on topic.
This should be implied by the previous post but it's a very very difficult concept for many.
Here (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=49952) you can see trolls derailing a thread with off-topic posts while not even trying to enhance or improve upon the proposed feature.
Unproductive.
- Sometimes, items will invariably touch several other items, such as weapon damage being related to materials.
Pick tag that applies closest.
If not possible, propose new tag and post your idea when it's been approved.
If it can't wait a day or two, it probably was some embarrassingly harebrained scheme anyway.
With the tags a limited quantity and with a descriptive subject, the thread can still be found since Toady isn't stupid, either.
- You have a good idea? Be clear and concise in the explanation. Think it through.
That the player can understand a new feature is fine but how would the AI understand and cope with it? How does it affect the rest of the game?
A lot of my own ideas looked good on paper until I put them in context and started considering the aftereffects.
- The locals 'round here don't seem to be an unreasonable bunch and can certainly see the value of some organisation so the system would most likely work without having an iron fisted moderator to enforce these rules.
Still, it should be made very clear that failure to comply with such simple rules will get the thread deleted without any warning or notice.
Now, whether this is actually enforced or not is probably irrelevant. Noone likes the idea of their valuable contribution being deleted just because they were too lazy to look up a proper tag. =)
Now I know that I'm sounding like some forum nazi but if your suggestions are worth being read, they should also be structured so that they can be found when needed.
Otherwise - why would you go to the trouble of posting them?
The list above is too long for "simple rules" but that's because of the reasoning and explanation. Just the rules would be very slim.
<text>
In a lot of beta forums they usually split it up into several broad categories, as CK suggested.
The ones that I recall from STO were:
Graphics & UI
Missions
Powers
Combat
General Gameplay
Powers = Skills & Stats
Missions = Jobs & Professions
and you've got a good split. It doesn't have to be strict, but mods can move threads if they feel it's necessary. The point is that a suggestion about adding double-bladed swords doesn't need to be in the same forum as one proposing that there be hidden magma deposits.
<text>
Proper use of Child Boards could simply fix this problem. Just visit http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php) and you'll know what I mean. (It's a SimCity4 custom content site, and a very well made one at that). Having child boards intergrated inside the main forum index with an eternal topic and a big *** READ FORUM RULES BEFORE POSTING!!! *** title in it.
You could branch everything with this method. Just adding a seperate childs for [Core Game Mecanics Suggestions], [Variety/Flavor Suggestions] and [Main Suggestion/Concerns] would be a big step. This is all just my suggestions here, so don't jump the gun.
Core Game Mecanics could encompass child boards like:
- AI - Auto-vein Mining, Routes/Roads/Hallways, Distances and Access, Job Priorities, etc.
- Tile Value Tracking - Soil Nutrients and Fertilizers, Temperature/Seasons, Cave-ins and Pillar Support, Water/Magma/Sand Algorythms, Irrigation, etc.
- Other Value Tracking - Nutrition(Hunger) and Hydration(Thirst), Creature/Plant Health and Growth, Food Shelflife, Diseases (for creatures and plants alike), etc.
- User Setting Preferences - Uniforms, Kitchen Settings, Economic Stones Settings, Stockpile and Workshop Profiles, Embark Profiles, Save Files, etc.
- Other - FPS Optimizing, Multi-Core and 64-bit, Graphics and Utilities Support, etc.
Variety/Flavor could encompass child boards like:
- Politics - Nobles, Sects/Social Classes/Guilds, Religion, Migrants, Trading and Envoys, Mandates, Justice, etc.
- Economy - Rents, Taxes, Jobs/Pay and Coins, Entertainers, Wenches/Cooks/Service Industry, Shops, etc.
- Creatures & Plants - Megabeats, Wild/Domestic Animals, Pests, Tree-Planting, Weeds, Sugar/Flour/Spices/Herbs/Medecines/Cooking Oil, etc.
- Items - Clothes, Weapons, Armor, Instruments, Pottery, Tapisseries & Carpets, Painting, Potted Plants, Bookshelves, Mecanisms, etc.
- Workshop and Rooms - Bars, Arenas, Stadiums/Sports, Libraires/Schools, Ranches/Milking, Orchards, Oven/Backeries, Charcuteries, Windmills/Pumps/Sprinklers, etc.
- Custom Labors
- Worldgen - Aquifer Settings, Biomes, Evil/Good and Calm/Savage Settings, Custom Stone Layers/Gems/Resources, Cavern Diversity, etc.
- Other - Magic, Alchemy, etc
Main Concerns would encompass child boards regarding one subject, such as:
- Improved Farming
- Military
- Healthcare
- Other - Perceived-as-Bug, Disapointments/Whining,etc.
Within each Main Child Boards, individuals could create a new topic to talk about their whole idea (kinda like a mod suggestion) usually encompassing various subjects, just beneath the Forum Rules sticky.
A fresh start is require for this to work, but I don't think its a bad thing.
With each topic becoming more important, another child board could be added.
Most of these are interchangeable, just put the main idea in the right category and use Quotes/Links for implementation/explanation.
Hope this helps.
ta-da.
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well? anyone?
(p.s. I'm a LOOONG lurker. I KNOW you. somehow.)
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8)
Seems alright, at first glance, TolyK.
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that was... two months ago?
wow.
...
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I was busy!
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I was busy!
lol.
that was actually meant as "wow that was long ago"
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Well, I was really, really busy... :-\
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A small suggestion,for those very small suggestions or to small tweaks and fixes,so they don't clutter the main suggestion page,this will help to find usefull suggestion for putting on the small patches after the main update.
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How about deleting everything beyond page 100 to save space?
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That will work too. ;)
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That will work too. ;)
Yes but Toady archives it for later... That won't exactly help him.
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that was a joke :P
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How about we delete the last 200 pages of the suggestion forums to save a few Mb?
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How about we delete the last 200 pages of the suggestion forums to save a few Mb?
Why? We're not exactly out of storage space.
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Well.... We already have 130419 posts. If you consider one ost to caontain an average of X letters then the total memmory would be 130419*X+(130419*128) bytes? Hmm.... Maybe that isnt much but still. Its not like toady is EVER going to look at something in page 456.
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Well.... We already have 130419 posts. If you consider one ost to caontain an average of X letters then the total memmory would be 130419*X+(130419*128) bytes? Hmm.... Maybe that isnt much but still. Its not like toady is EVER going to look at something in page 456.
He reads posts as they come, and indexes the most interesting.
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I don't know how actively Toady/Threetoe reads this forum and how much time it takes, but I think that organizing suggestions in a decent way would help a lot. We could have either (or both!) sticky threads or a wiki page in which we would try to list suggestions in a very concise manner. This both prevents reposts (using the search function for this is a bit iffy, as you can use different words to describe the same thing) and makes it a lot easier for Toady/Threetoe to sift through them.
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I don't know how actively Toady/Threetoe reads this forum and how much time it takes, but I think that organizing suggestions in a decent way would help a lot. We could have either (or both!) sticky threads or a wiki page in which we would try to list suggestions in a very concise manner. This both prevents reposts (using the search function for this is a bit iffy, as you can use different words to describe the same thing) and makes it a lot easier for Toady/Threetoe to sift through them.
I agree with the sticky threads idea that there can be linked megathreads to act as an index of thoughts and ideas. This will have to have some form of set criteria since it can be chaotic when this are brought of during a thread. An example of this is the Religion megathread I had started with help from NW_Kohaku. Its pretty crazy wading through the masses of forum posts that actually deal with the subject matter and devoted to its discussion, came to it from another topic(some actually still have good ideas), and/or have no relation to the topic. However, if even a simple list can be made and organized the collection of ideas come together pretty well and begin to generate a far bigger picture and depth.
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I agree with the sticky threads idea that there can be linked megathreads to act as an index of thoughts and ideas. This will have to have some form of set criteria since it can be chaotic when this are brought of during a thread. An example of this is the Religion megathread I had started with help from NW_Kohaku. Its pretty crazy wading through the masses of forum posts that actually deal with the subject matter and devoted to its discussion, came to it from another topic(some actually still have good ideas), and/or have no relation to the topic. However, if even a simple list can be made and organized the collection of ideas come together pretty well and begin to generate a far bigger picture and depth.
Yeah, systemizing it a bit would probably help a lot as well. Maybe using "tag" words for each suggestion to allow for easier browsing through the search engine. Hehe, that'd be one horrendous overkill... Realistically, though, I'm thinking we make only one sticky (to avoid cluttering up the first page), which links to megathreads which in turn summarizes suggestions in a major topic and links to threads which discusses single suggestions. That'd allow us to make quite a lot of megathreads, meaning they can be more specific. The suggestions in the megathreads would just consist of a headline and a few lines long description, along with links to relevant threads. Maybe also some part about things Toady has stated is planned/in the devlog?
Either way, I think these would make for more interesting discussions, as you'd get inspiration from the other suggestions. What major topics do we have as of now? I'm thinking (we could probably make due with fairly crude distinctions as of now):
- Combat/physics
- Magic
- Wildlife
- Labours
- Items/buildings
- Personality
- Worldgen/civilization related
- UI/game controls
Edit: I searched around a bit, found a few.
Underground diversity: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=22308.0
Aboveground diversity: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=31613.0
Religion: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105640
Cooking: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=69453
Vehicles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=72675
Any more that exists as of now?
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How 'bout working on thievery? It's pretty pathetic that you can't to diddily squat when you have someone else's goods. And also, what about being able to pickpocket? Like take the carving knives and coins that everyone has. You should really see if you could incorporate some of the Witch Hunter mod into the game, because they know what they are doing (Not that you don't). I saw on the dev page that you're working on hideworking, which these guys already have done. They also have some pretty cool magic stuff. Wow, long post.
Here's the Witch Hunter stuff: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6407
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I agree with the sticky threads idea that there can be linked megathreads to act as an index of thoughts and ideas. This will have to have some form of set criteria since it can be chaotic when this are brought of during a thread. An example of this is the Religion megathread I had started with help from NW_Kohaku. Its pretty crazy wading through the masses of forum posts that actually deal with the subject matter and devoted to its discussion, came to it from another topic(some actually still have good ideas), and/or have no relation to the topic. However, if even a simple list can be made and organized the collection of ideas come together pretty well and begin to generate a far bigger picture and depth.
Yeah, systemizing it a bit would probably help a lot as well. Maybe using "tag" words for each suggestion to allow for easier browsing through the search engine. Hehe, that'd be one horrendous overkill... Realistically, though, I'm thinking we make only one sticky (to avoid cluttering up the first page), which links to megathreads which in turn summarizes suggestions in a major topic and links to threads which discusses single suggestions. That'd allow us to make quite a lot of megathreads, meaning they can be more specific. The suggestions in the megathreads would just consist of a headline and a few lines long description, along with links to relevant threads. Maybe also some part about things Toady has stated is planned/in the devlog?
Either way, I think these would make for more interesting discussions, as you'd get inspiration from the other suggestions. What major topics do we have as of now? I'm thinking (we could probably make due with fairly crude distinctions as of now):
- Combat/physics
- Magic
- Wildlife
- Labours
- Items/buildings
- Personality
- Worldgen/civilization related
- UI/game controls
Edit: I searched around a bit, found a few.
Underground diversity: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=22308.0
Aboveground diversity: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=31613.0
Religion: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105640
Cooking: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=69453
Vehicles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=72675
Any more that exists as of now?
And then we could make one more megathread above this and call it the arcanum of suggestions. So then it would be easier to navigate, categorized, and leave no experienced forumer with any excuse for a failure.
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As the game becomes more complete, I'm really starting to see more and more need for a separation of the Suggestions megafolder into threads intended for suggestions/requests for things that could only be coded in by Toady One, and threads for things that can be immediately modded into the game, by players.
I was wondering if we could please have a Suggestions for Mods/Modding subfolder, with the main intention that it be a place for people to make requests of player-modders, for things they want to see in the game. Yes, people can mod these things in themselves, and that's perfectly fine, but I don't see any harm in there being a place for requests. It would also be a place for people to educate themselves and others on what it's possible to mod into the game already, to hold poles on what people most want modded into the game, and to locate mods that have already been made, saving a duplication of effort.
Importantly, it would additionally act as a repository for what's already been done, helping to reduce a duplication of effort, and helping people to find up-to-date examples of things they want to see in the game, that have already been modded in, or atleast to get ideas of where to start looking. It would be a subfolder for discussing the future of modding.
It seems like an obvious division. For instance, Suggestions for coding changes would obviously relate much more closely to bug reports and updates to the game, while the Suggestions for Mods/Modding subfolder could include requests for, and discussions about, additional modding tools, that would add to that aspect of the game, but be unrelated to the main game.
The fact that the Modding megathread itself is larger than the Suggestions megathread itself should point
to there being enough interest in the subject to warrant a division, that there are people who enjoy modding the game as much as playing it, and that vanilla versions and modded versions of the game will only continue to increasingly diverge from one another.
The main modding thread would still hold all of the mods, themselves, and be the place to get help with mods, and to discuss existing mods. A suggestions subfolder would help keep the main folder cleaner and more organised, and help keep the focus of conversation threads on the mods themselves.
Having moddable requests separated out from Coding Suggestions, should make it easier for Toady One to find important mechanical functions that players would like to see added, or modified, and how directly they relate to the current version of the game, and any outstanding bugs, without having to wade through an enormous volume of perfectly moddable ideas, and general vagueness, while educating players on how empowered they are to make the game more like what they want it to be.
This could be done with just adding new threads in the 'Modding' folder, but it would only add to the messiness of that folder, and I feel a subfolder is a better solution.
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I totally 100% agree with SirHoneyBadger. Precisely I was trying to determine where to ask a question I had. Essentially I want to know if it will be possible to modify other races\creatures's sites, so instead of having standard randomly generated human towns, human towns with a randomly generated tower, or fortresses with sewers but no town, or instead of towns randomly generated pyramids, etc. Would this be a modding question? A modding tool suggestion\request? Bottomline I wasn't sure in which forum it could be asked.
With the proposed subfolders, suggestions could be categorized a lot better.
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Seeing how the modding forum got a couple of childboards, I dont think there is a problem with making modding requests directly in the modding forum. It is a lot emptier now that the most active threads have found a new home.
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More map exploration in dwarf fortress mode (being able to explore the world map, sending expeditions, creating colonies, attack other civilization, etc)
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I'm pretty sure that there is one topic that keeps appearing all the time, but due to how thinly the discussion is spread out it seems like it's not talked about a lot.
Magic.
Because of this, I suggest putting a stickied Magic Megathread to contain all the discussion of mehgeeks in one, convenient location.
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Magic
Crafting Systems
Civilizations
New Creatures
Infrastructure systems
Mechanical Systems
UI and Other Game Mechanics
Would be the ones I'd put in.
Infrastructure Systems would be anything that falls into the category of making things that are necessary to live. Production systems and such. Also things like 'waste' which everyone keeps demanding.
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i have a suggestion for a second way to regain limbs/fingers possibly by getting a rabbit left paw? and a four leaf clover then using them to regain a part ex. finger shoulder elbow toe knee foot etc.
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sorry, wrong thread.
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This isn't where suggestions go. This is a thread discussing the layout of where suggestions go.
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One thing I noticed is that on the eternal suggestion voter thing there were 3 suggestions within the top 20 that have been implemented already to the point where they could be removed from the list
Specifically:
Viewing dwarf mental status
Retiring forts
Aging birth and death after world gen
Removing these would allow people who voted for them to vote for other things and it would
Update the list to make it a more accurate representation of what people want in the game
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That would probably be better suited to the Eternal Suggestion Voting thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=24818.0).
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I know it might not be the best thread to put it, but pretty please, can we have this mod (http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1193)installed?
There are some threads I regret writing on because they keep cluttering my view every time I hit the Show new replies to your posts. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=unreadreplies) link.
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Toady is the only one that has the ability to do that (possibly ThreeToe as well), and he doesn't follow this thread regularly, so you should send him a PM if you want him to see that.
Out of curiosity, do you know if that's compatible with SMF 2.0.9? It does list a handful of 2.0.x versions that are older than what this forum uses, but I'm not familiar enough with SMF to know if any versions in between could have broken compatibility with that mod.
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As a suggestion who comments in threads
1) Do not tell people to post in Megathreads when they come up with a specific suggestion. Megathreads are the book equivalents of "reference books" and "Encyclapedias".
2) Do not link people to other threads that are "In the same general area" but aren't the same suggestion.
3) Mods are not a replacement for any suggestion. Do not bring it up except accompanied by "While you are waiting for this to be implemented, here is a mod that does this". Do not forget these words, they will smoothe out a lot of arguments.
4) Remember that to the person who makes the thread they believe in their own suggestion and are sharing it with hopes of improving the game. Be honest, but don't rip into them.
5) Alternatives and building on other suggestions are far more valuable then saying a suggestion is bad. If it is possible, think of ways it could be implemented.
As for people who make threads
1) Always properly name your thread. The main topic and the specific topic for example "Mounts: Saddles providing a riding bonus"
2) If you have multiple topics that are too numerous to list. Pick the best suggestion in your list and make that as the title with a "+ Other suggestions". OR find a common thread between them.
3) Always search first before posting, as well as the dev list.
4) Stay away from vague "Do better" suggestions. Suggestions need to be specific. "Combat needs to be more interesting" is vague, what could make combat more interesting?
5) Try not to include fixing bugs as a suggestion. Certainly they need to be fixed, but they aren't really a feature.
6) People won't like your suggestions, it will just happen. People will pick on small details or dislike it for fairly asinine reasons. This doesn't mean your suggestion wasn't good.
7) Avoid complaints as suggestions as well. "Dragons aren't fun" isn't specific, do you want them improved, removed, what about them needs to be improved and why?
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Are there any third party sites we can use? (Not Reddit, too hard to view and comment on less popular old threads.) It has to have voting and decent search.
Brothers and sisters, how about Github (https://github.com/Drakedude/Dwarf-Fortress-Suggestions)? Use the issue tracking as the suggestions board and the thumbs reactions as votes. If i can get Toady to sticky it i'll add the old Eternal Voting suggestions.
Soooo, toady is worried about trolls, which i gotta admit is fair. Advantage of the now defunct suggestions ranker was that it colored votes according to post count. Sounds like we need another custom built utility (with more functionality), which hopefully shouldn't be too hard.
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Hello everybody.
Excuse me if I didn't read the whole 8 pages of this thread.
I'm starting to get a real interest for the suggestion thread, and I'd love to have a place that is some sort of overview of what's the status of the conversation in the community. I see that there has been a tentative to put this overview somewhere:
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:Granite26/Suggestions (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:Granite26/Suggestions)
but it's not updated since 2009 and the suggestion thread keeps popping the same questions over and over.
Is there any effort active to give life to that wiki page? I would definitely love it, and I would give my contribution as I slowly research the topic that interest me.
thanks everybody!
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Hello! I'm an occasional lurker who's played the game in short bursts every few years (since 40d). The game is so much bigger and the world is so much better than when I first downloaded it. Thank you for your efforts!
I've been thinking of making a suggestion using the Threetoe story format.
(Story -> Analysis/Desired Feel)
- Analysis would be translated into specific mechanics
- These mechanics may be separated into discrete chunks that are designed to work with each other
- Further discussion on how these mechanics may contribute toward / alleviate other requests.
Would making a Threetoe style story suggestion be appropriate? Or would that be invasive towards the game vision.
If I made the story/suggestions would this forum category be the place to put it?
Thank you!
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I think this suggestion should go here if I understand this correctly.
Most recent replies should be displayed at the top and at the first page of the topic messages list.
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I think this suggestion should go here if I understand this correctly.
Most recent replies should be displayed at the top and at the first page of the topic messages list.
This thread is for discussing how to organize discussions in this subforum. Your suggestion sounds to me like a suggestion for changing the forum software itself, which is not in the scope of this thread, and likely not something anyone in this thread can address.
However, this does appear to be a personal preference you can change: under http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=theme, try checking "Show most recent posts at the top" and saving.
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I suggest splitting the suggestion forum in 2 parts:
1: Fixes/improvements to existing things.
Like changing the military screen or changing how tombs work or making dragons grow up faster.
2: New content.
Like adding beavers or tattoos or pegasi dwarves can use as flying mounts.