Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Cynic Before It Was Cool on January 26, 2015, 02:25:14 am
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There was a poetic form common in Saxon and Viking cultures that was really just an archaic rap battle, of sorts. Given that IRL humans have the warrior-poet tendency, I think it would be interesting to see military humans and dwarves to have some level of poetic or musical ability expected of them.
As a secondary idea, two dwarves/humans/whatever could engage in dueling poems, either to entertain a crowd or to solve a personal dispute (see Beowulf's argument with Unferth for a common example).
Finally, a question: will the poetry follow any sort of rule or will it be free verse?
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Same with dancing. I heard the Bourrée started as a way to solve disputes between farmers. And there's also that dancing the rugby players do before matches.
Poetry will probably follow rules that vary depending on the culture. If we actually get to see written poetry in the game - besides being incredibly awesome - it shouldn't be too hard to include metric and rhyme in the verses.
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I'm thinking different styles can be used eventually.
Like, a dwarf can compose an elegy for a particularly powerful (dead) noble or warrior. Maybe some particularly jerky nobles will want one composed before they die?
Or flytings (the argument I mentioned earlier) to solve disputes. Maybe creatures with high skills could also introduce themselves and their exploits in a dramatic monologue.
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This is a stack of +Epic Poetry+. All CraftsDwarfship is of the highest quality. It is encircled with bands of Sestina and menaces with spikes of Iambic Pentameter.
If we actually get to see written poetry in the game - besides being incredibly awesome - it shouldn't be too hard to include metric and rhyme in the verses.
I don't know; the thing to remember is that computers already have a handicap when it comes to handling human (or Dwarf) language capabilities - that's why the creation of Watson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_%28computer%29) was such a big deal. Since words aren't always pronounced the way they're spelled, and computers only know words via visual text input, Toady would basically have to create a phonetic dictionary of sorts before he can tell the program how to use it for meter and rhyming schemes. It may be doable, but it would be a lot of leg-work.
ETA:
Like, a dwarf can compose an elegy for a particularly powerful (dead) noble or warrior. Maybe some particularly jerky nobles will want one composed before they die?
Ooh! That could be tied in to Memorial Slabs somehow; maybe memorializing a Dwarf in verse will have the same effect as burial or memorial slabs in laying a soul to rest, or conversely, maybe a sufficiently important (or egotistical) Dwarf ghost won't be happy unless his headstone has a nice elegy engraved on it.
Come to think, some ancient cultures took to writing/carving words on pillars and walls; will Poetry affect Engraving?
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If your Poetry Skill was Horrible could it cause people to attack you?
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If your Poetry Skill was Horrible could it cause people to attack you?
Well, you might get rotten fish thrown at you and have your performances banned by the authorities as a menace to public order. Does that count (http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/)?
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Yes, Yes it does.
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Finally, a question: will the poetry follow any sort of rule or will it be free verse?
Latest devlog:
Poetic, musical and dance forms will be generated by culture.
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What would be hilarious would be an insulting contest. Not exactly a rap battle, but yeah...
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I don't know; the thing to remember is that computers already have a handicap when it comes to handling human (or Dwarf) language capabilities - that's why the creation of Watson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_%28computer%29) was such a big deal. Since words aren't always pronounced the way they're spelled, and computers only know words via visual text input, Toady would basically have to create a phonetic dictionary of sorts before he can tell the program how to use it for meter and rhyming schemes. It may be doable, but it would be a lot of leg-work.
Well, yeah, he'd have to include a rhyme dictionary in the game essentially. And a proper count of the syllables in each word. And some way for the game to check that it's properly combining verbs with nouns with adjectives with adverbs etc. It's probably not worth it but just +poetry book+ is pretty boring. Can you imagine procedurally generated poetry?
Eyes colour of jet black
Her skin like a bark scorpion
Wild hair falls down her back
Her touch like a bark scorpion
My potter makes every other statue a bark scorpion.
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I don't know; the thing to remember is that computers already have a handicap when it comes to handling human (or Dwarf) language capabilities - that's why the creation of Watson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_%28computer%29) was such a big deal. Since words aren't always pronounced the way they're spelled, and computers only know words via visual text input, Toady would basically have to create a phonetic dictionary of sorts before he can tell the program how to use it for meter and rhyming schemes. It may be doable, but it would be a lot of leg-work.
Well, yeah, he'd have to include a rhyme dictionary in the game essentially. And a proper count of the syllables in each word. And some way for the game to check that it's properly combining verbs with nouns with adjectives with adverbs etc. It's probably not worth it but just +poetry book+ is pretty boring. Can you imagine procedurally generated poetry?
Eyes colour of jet black
Her skin like a bark scorpion
Wild hair falls down her back
Her touch like a bark scorpion
My potter makes every other statue a bark scorpion.
Yes, I agree it would be incredible (and probably sometimes hilarious, given how the rest of Dwarven Art seems to be). And come to think, if the poetry is based on Dwarven--I'm not sure how the whole language goes, but if it's meant to be one of those "spelled like it sounds" languages, then he'd just need to do a basic letter-matching thing and only add the syllable count (I think). Of course, it wouldn't rhyme in English, but would still be interesting.
ETA: Hm, do you think the poetry would likely be weighted towards certain topics? E.g., 50% likely to be about booze, 40% about artifacts, and 10% miscellaneous?
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That depends on how engravings, statues, crafts and so on end up. Themes have been suggested, specific engravings as well. I doubt having half of all statues depicting the dwarf's favourite animal - or whatever he or she happens to be obsessed with - is how it's intended to be.
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What would be hilarious would be an insulting contest. Not exactly a rap battle, but yeah...
There's not a whole lot of difference, honestly. Rap battles are just a reiteration of a genre that's been around for centuries, and you can find yo' momma jokes and "I nailed your sister" remarks as far back as pre-Christian literature. I'd geek out over the history of ribaldry, but I'd be diving into TL;DR territory.
Yes, I agree it would be incredible (and probably sometimes hilarious, given how the rest of Dwarven Art seems to be). And come to think, if the poetry is based on Dwarven--I'm not sure how the whole language goes, but if it's meant to be one of those "spelled like it sounds" languages, then he'd just need to do a basic letter-matching thing and only add the syllable count (I think). Of course, it wouldn't rhyme in English, but would still be interesting.
It looks like Dwarven follows similar rules to Turkic or Ugric languages, lots of compound words, implied articles, addition of suffixes, etc. It might be more realistic to avoid rhyme schemes and instead just focus on syllabic meter and lyrical form.
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I'd geek out over the history of ribaldry
Geek out plox! This is fascinating.
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How much do you want to bet that we'll get a message like "Urist McPoetical has created a song! The song is short, but bittersweet. It refers to the human Verish Blackwell the Bronzes of Summer and a kangaroo doe. The kangaroo doe is striking down the human Verish Blackwell the Bronzes of Summer. Verish looks terrified. The kangaroo doe looks bored. This song alludes to the slaying of Verish Blackwell the Bronzes of Summer by a kangaroo doe in 117."
What is a book, but oral history transcribed? It would be logical to assume that Toady would use the same system he has already used for all other art to also describe these forms. Personally, I'd enthusiastically support a reform in how this information is conveyed. Right now it's overly complicated and repetitious, but that's the same reason I like Dwarf Fortress gameplay, so there's a paradox.
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Geek out plox! This is fascinating.
Try to find Lord John Wilmot's poem, Signior Dildo, as well as a folk song called The Crabfish. Shakespeare would toss in any vulgar pun he could think of (see: Hamlet alluding to laying in Opehlia's lap as "country matters.") Chaucer joked about cheating wives and STD's in Canterbury Tales. Apparently, the oldest "Yo Mama" joke was found on a Babylonian tablet that's about 3,500 years old, but... most of it is illegible.
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Ancient Saxon and Scandinavian prose battles?
Sounds like something I would pay to watch.
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I don't know; the thing to remember is that computers already have a handicap when it comes to handling human (or Dwarf) language capabilities - that's why the creation of Watson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_%28computer%29) was such a big deal. Since words aren't always pronounced the way they're spelled, and computers only know words via visual text input, Toady would basically have to create a phonetic dictionary of sorts before he can tell the program how to use it for meter and rhyming schemes. It may be doable, but it would be a lot of leg-work.
Well, yeah, he'd have to include a rhyme dictionary in the game essentially. And a proper count of the syllables in each word. And some way for the game to check that it's properly combining verbs with nouns with adjectives with adverbs etc. It's probably not worth it but just +poetry book+ is pretty boring. Can you imagine procedurally generated poetry?
Eyes colour of jet black
Her skin like a bark scorpion
Wild hair falls down her back
Her touch like a bark scorpion
My potter makes every other statue a bark scorpion.
Verse that actually rhymes is only a small part of historical poetry. Most of the Viking and Saxon poetry had a much more complicated construction, based on alliteration and syllable length, something more like a haiku. Here's an excerpt from Håvamål off the top of my head, to give you an idea:
Byrði betri
berr-at maðr brautu at,
enn sé mannvit mikit;
Vegnest verra
vegr-a hann velli at,
enn sé ofdrykkja ǫls.