Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: adityarajbhatt on March 31, 2013, 08:51:18 am
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I read toady's interview which said that he wanted to keep the game closed source as long as bay12games was financially stable. I didn't understand it. Does he want to commercialize the game when it comes out of alpha and subsequently, beta? Or was it just to prevent forks which fragment the already (relatively) small (though devoted) userbase?
If its commercialization then just tell me and close this post. However if its to keep the game under control, why doesn't he adopt the linux model of development, where he could be the head and decide what goes into the game (has the final say). People would send him all sort of ideas and patches and it would really reduce his workload and speed up development. It won't just reveal bugs more efficiently, but proficient programmers could build fixes and send it to him. Since he already develops the game through donations, it won't make a (negative) difference if he simply releases the source code. Grateful people won't evaporate overnight. In fact donations would only increase if programmers see the wonderful logic and methods built in the game. I've seen the loyalty of this fan base, and its unlike anything else, except perhaps Linux or Google fanatics. This community could trash minecraft in a second on that front.
Also the complexity of the game leads to the base consisting of much more mentally agile people who understand the principle of giving money for something they're receiving so generously. So if the code is released everyone wins. The question of why not remains.
P.S- I've already trawled the web for any page where toady one elaborates on his reasons, but sadly I couldn't find anything except that it seemed "too reckless".
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Welcome to the forums.
This topic has been very thoroughly discussed in the past, and bringing it up again is just asking for trouble.
Or was it just to prevent forks which fragment the already (relatively) small (though devoted) userbase?
As I recall, this was the main reason. He's also been somewhat worried about projects such as DFHack which have been reverse-engineering parts of the game, fearing that it may lead to somebody cloning the game and stealing his userbase.
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DF is toady and (as far as I know) threetoes only source of income. Toady has pretty clearly stated the DF is unlikely to go open source until his death, at which point he's planning to put the DF release in his will. He's actually joked about fearing for his life, should that happen.
In addition, the DF code is probably a horrible, tangled mess of lettering indistinguishable from a foreign language that nobody quite understands. It would take years to get any new employees up to date on what the code does, and that would probably result in a total overhaul. It's not really worth the effort.
Does he want to commercialize the game when it comes out of alpha and subsequently, beta? Or was it just to prevent forks which fragment the already (relatively) small (though devoted) userbase?
Dwarf Fortress is one of those games that might not ever come out of alpha. Like most roguelikes, there's no clear development stage. There will never be a point when DF is in a finished, polished version (unless we put Toadys' brain in a robot so that he can keep coding until the universe explodes).
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Dwarf Fortress is Tarn's baby. He has turned down commercial offers in the past because he did not want to lose control over his project. It's the same reason he is so reluctant to allow other programmers in. He is afraid the other programmers will create code he doesn't understand and thus be forced to rely on that programmer. This is what happened with the OpenGL code.
His dream is to create a game he would want to play and he has big ideas on what his dream game is like.
There are many interviews available on his links section on the main site and he does a df talk from time to time. Also he has done a Q&A on reddit so I don't understand how you could not find any information whatsoever on his goals and intentions regarding dwarf fortress.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/links.html
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/df_talk.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_adams_of_bay_12_games_cocreator_of_dwarf/
In fact donations would only increase if programmers see the wonderful logic and methods built in the game.
Haha, wonderful logic... Tarn has said multiple times he is not a professional programmer and he is not familiar with even the names of various programming practices. He is learning as he goes. He is doing a damn good job at creating something beautiful despite not really knowing what he is doing which is something many programmers who do know what they are doing fail at. Creativity and persistence goes a long way.
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EDIT: Double Post.
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>Putting Toady's brain into a robot so it can code until the universe explodes
"Toadybot reporting for duty, main directive: Code Dwarf Fortress. Beginning function"
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I was thinking. Maybe we could let Ninja Theory have a go with DF, you know, to speed up the process a bit. or maybe EA could do it I mean, if EA bought Dwarf Fortress it'd be great, right it's not like anything bad could go wrong right? Not like Westwood or Maxis or Dice or...
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He's actually joked about fearing for his life, should that happen
His will also says that the source code would not be released should he be murdered
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I was thinking. Maybe we could let Ninja Theory have a go with DF, you know, to speed up the process a bit. or maybe EA could do it I mean, if EA bought Dwarf Fortress it'd be great, right it's not like anything bad could go wrong right? Not like Westwood or Maxis or Dice or...
EA buy's DF... Thanks for giving me nightmares.
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I was thinking. Maybe we could let Ninja Theory have a go with DF, you know, to speed up the process a bit. or maybe EA could do it I mean, if EA bought Dwarf Fortress it'd be great, right it's not like anything bad could go wrong right? Not like Westwood or Maxis or Dice or...
This very scenario is why the box was invented.
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DF is toady and (as far as I know) threetoes only source of income. Toady has pretty clearly stated the DF is unlikely to go open source until his death, at which point he's planning to put the DF release in his will. He's actually joked about fearing for his life, should that happen.
In addition, the DF code is probably a horrible, tangled mess of lettering indistinguishable from a foreign language that nobody quite understands. It would take years to get any new employees up to date on what the code does, and that would probably result in a total overhaul. It's not really worth the effort.
Does he want to commercialize the game when it comes out of alpha and subsequently, beta? Or was it just to prevent forks which fragment the already (relatively) small (though devoted) userbase?
Dwarf Fortress is one of those games that might not ever come out of alpha. Like most roguelikes, there's no clear development stage. There will never be a point when DF is in a finished, polished version (unless we put Toadys' brain in a robot so that he can keep coding until the universe explodes).
As far as I know, the only way he makes money is through people who make donations after downloading the game for *free*. People won't just stop doing that, would they? In fact open sourcing it would only increase everyone's respect for him. But yeah, if the codebase is a mess, he should probably clean it up in some huge block of time before sharing it.
As for stealing the userbase through some clone, that's a pretty forgone conclusion, given the popularity that Tarn Adams has achieved. Thanks for your replies everyone.
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OH GOD IF EA BOUGHT DWARF FORTRESS... Worlds would be 50x smaller, you would have to pay for more migrants, you would have the be online the entire time to play, you would have to sell you soul to the devil(Okay maybe not that...)
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OH GOD IF EA BOUGHT DWARF FORTRESS... Worlds would be 50x smaller, you would have to pay for more migrants, you would have the be online the entire time to play, you would have to sell you soul to the devil(Okay maybe not that...)
Didn't you get the memo? EA's banned from hell. Too evil.
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How do you figure making the source code available would increase everyone's respect for him? It's not as if all projects are improved by releasing the source code, some just aren't appropriate to create that way and get worse if you try. Nor is doing it wrong on purpose because people keep asking you to a big respect winner, if anything it loses respect from people who value integrity and courage. Are you just thinking Open Source Everything At Any Cost zealots == Everybody, or at least Everybody Who Matters? They aren't.
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From what I've gathered from the hundreds of times this question has come up, it basically boils down to Dwarf Fortress being Toady and Three-toe's project - they don't want it forked, they don't want contributions, they don't want people insisting that the way so-and-so did it is better or that they should add so-and-so's feature, etc.
By making the source code public, they would invite a lot of criticism, and "suggestions" from other programmers, and be put under pressure to meet other people's visions of what the game should be - if they don't, then a fork of the game could usurp the main branch and strip toady of what is essentially the result of his seemingly endless strange mood (to put it in DF terms).
Basically, this is toady's masterpiece, and he wants it to remain his. Open sourcing it during his lifetime would put that at risk, and while it may not be likely, there is a chance that he could essentially lose everything he's worked so hard to create once other people are free to modify and criticize.
Dwarf Fortress has never been about the money, so arguing that donations would increase is pointless - If it was about money he has had opportunities to monetize the game before. The fact that it is still after all this time based on donations is a testament to his devotion to the dream, regardless of the financial payoff.
Edit: And I'm saying this as someone who is very much in favour of free software - personally, I would love it if DF were re-licensed under the GPL, and I'm sorta hoping that toady will do something like this in his will, but as long as he's still able to work on it, he has his reasons for keeping the code closed.
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From what I've gathered from the hundreds of times this question has come up, it basically boils down to Dwarf Fortress being Toady and Three-toe's project - they don't want it forked, they don't want contributions, they don't want people insisting that the way so-and-so did it is better or that they should add so-and-so's feature, etc.
Fun fact: Toady hated coding the UI so he had somebody else code it for him once. It's a single exception that unlikely to happen ever again, but it's some useless trivia that's fun to think about.
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From what I've gathered from the hundreds of times this question has come up, it basically boils down to Dwarf Fortress being Toady and Three-toe's project - they don't want it forked, they don't want contributions, they don't want people insisting that the way so-and-so did it is better or that they should add so-and-so's feature, etc.
Fun fact: Toady hated coding the UI so he had somebody else code it for him once. It's a single exception that unlikely to happen ever again, but it's some useless trivia that's fun to think about.
You're thinking of the graphics. Toady open-sourced them for some OpenGL upgrades, which brought about the SDL version with Mac and Linux compatibility, multithreading and tilesets.
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I really don't think that if DF went open-source it would be endanger of being cloned any more than it has already been (Towns, Gnomoria, etc; all very much DF clones, albeit with a smaller scope and better graphics). If you knew enough programming to develop a game, you could easily duplicate DF simply by playing it and reading the wiki to learn how everything works, mechanically and then figure out your own way to code it.
From what I've seen Toady say about the game and his work on it, I would think that the main reason it's not open-source is because he likes working on it. It's his baby, and it also gets him attention. If he was to give out the code, Toady would probably see a lot less personal attention, fewer people would follow his original programming line and would splinter off into different mods, etc. Still splintering the fan base, but at a bigger cost to his "fame" than the way current mods split the community.
Money would be another thing. Game is free, but powered by donations; since he's the only one able to update it, it gives him more "power" for receiving donations. If it was open-source, he could potentially lose more donations as people move to a different development branch from someone else, who may also start accepting (and receiving) donations for their updates to the code over Toady's.
Personally, I don't really mind if it's open-source or not, but I would like more modding abilities. There's a lot you can do, but also a lot you can't. You can make new items, new creatures, new buildings, etc, but you can't really add new features; only change the names and stats of existing ones.
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Then, of course, there's the aspect that this is everything Toady wants to achieve in his life. This is exactly his dream, his goal, his meaning to life, his forty-two. He turned down a degree in mathematic academia, a high paying job, for this. He eats one meal a day, wakes up at three in the afternoon and codes late late late into the night for several hours straight. I recall reading he subsists on sodas to help keep him awake and lessen headaches from exhaustion. And he still keeps doin' it.
Making it open-source would detract from Dwarf Fort's value, and him, and sorta dilute the whole process of creating the game in ways everyone else already posted. It's his masterpiece, giving other people the chance to work on it is like reducing the value of his life's effort.
I have much respect for the guy for following his goal so determinedly and confidently. He's a pretty cool guy.
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He turned down a degree in mathematic academia
Actually he didn't. Right now Toady still holds a Ph.D in Mathematics from Stanford University. You can even view his dissertation thesis paper here (http://math.stanford.edu/theses/tarn_thesis.pdf).
Also as others have stated Toady wants to make the game exactly the way he wants it. That's why he's turned down multi-million dollar offers to buy it, even with the offer to remain on as head dev, because he would have to change his vision.
And also as others have mentioned, the game's code will be released in the event of Toady's death, unless said cause of death is a murder, in which case it will not (so everybody pray that Toady isn't ever shot by a rouge gunman or anything similar :P).
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He turned down a degree in mathematic academia
Actually he didn't. Right now Toady still holds a Ph.D in Mathematics from Stanford University. You can even view his dissertation thesis paper here (http://math.stanford.edu/theses/tarn_thesis.pdf).
He turned down a job in mathematic academia, if i remember correctly.
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In addition, the DF code is probably a horrible, tangled mess of lettering indistinguishable from a foreign language that nobody quite understands. It would take years to get any new employees up to date on what the code does, and that would probably result in a total overhaul. It's not really worth the effort
I think years is overestimating a lot. Any developer can cut their teeth on myriad tiny bugs and featutre requests.
What I am more afraid is that future toady would be in similar position - finding code he forgot he wrote and having to get up to speed on his own creation.
By making the source code public, they would invite a lot of criticism, and "suggestions" from other programmers, and be put under pressure to meet other people's visions of what the game should be - if they don't, then a fork of the game could usurp the main branch and strip toady of what is essentially the result of his seemingly endless strange mood (to put it in DF terms).
He already got enough criticism and suggestions from other programers and suggestion forum is full of other peoples visions.
What has already happened was that we now have "soft fork" - dfhack/threapist/sound and stone sense.
And well as inspired games like Goblin Camp, Gnomoria, Towns, Dorfs... whoa, it feels like genre has emerged. Even ill advised and failed attempt to make full clone.
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I don't care whether it is his employee, contributor from opensource or his brother (or son), but another set of eyes would be incredibly helpfull.
And there are thing that he alone could do. For example using source revision repository.
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From what I've gathered from the hundreds of times this question has come up, it basically boils down to Dwarf Fortress being Toady and Three-toe's project - they don't want it forked, they don't want contributions, they don't want people insisting that the way so-and-so did it is better or that they should add so-and-so's feature, etc.
By making the source code public, they would invite a lot of criticism, and "suggestions" from other programmers, and be put under pressure to meet other people's visions of what the game should be - if they don't, then a fork of the game could usurp the main branch and strip toady of what is essentially the result of his seemingly endless strange mood (to put it in DF terms).
Basically, this is toady's masterpiece, and he wants it to remain his. Open sourcing it during his lifetime would put that at risk, and while it may not be likely, there is a chance that he could essentially lose everything he's worked so hard to create once other people are free to modify and criticize.
Dwarf Fortress has never been about the money, so arguing that donations would increase is pointless - If it was about money he has had opportunities to monetize the game before. The fact that it is still after all this time based on donations is a testament to his devotion to the dream, regardless of the financial payoff.
Edit: And I'm saying this as someone who is very much in favour of free software - personally, I would love it if DF were re-licensed under the GPL, and I'm sorta hoping that toady will do something like this in his will, but as long as he's still able to work on it, he has his reasons for keeping the code closed.
Nice answer. Cleared up all my doubts. One thing to note is that I wasn't trying too get him to release the code just to earn money. It was just that people seem to think that open source leads them to lose money when it is quite the opposite. I simply didn't think it from his point of view (the pressure on him to develop the game the way others want and not him). After all, it *is* his baby. So yeah, its better to drop the idea.
Thanks for the detailed answer Jenniretta. :D
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He turned down a degree in mathematic academia
Actually he didn't. Right now Toady still holds a Ph.D in Mathematics from Stanford University. You can even view his dissertation thesis paper here (http://math.stanford.edu/theses/tarn_thesis.pdf).
He turned down a job in mathematic academia, if i remember correctly.
Close enough, it's been a while since I read the articles I got all that info from. I know he did pass on the academia job though.