Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Reelya on August 20, 2016, 01:14:14 am

Title: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 20, 2016, 01:14:14 am
I realized we kinda lack a thread that's about general tech developments in "real world" contexts. Maybe this can be this thread. Recent news articles:

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/08/18/1351200/ubers-first-self-driving-fleet-arrives-in-pittsburgh-this-month
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Ride-hailing app Uber will introduce self-driving cars in Pittsburgh as soon as this month, Bloomberg reports citing many officials and engineers at the company. The move is the first part of a pilot program to explore the future of the technology, the report added. The company plans to test 100 Volvo XC90s outfitted to drive themselves. Still, the cars will be accompanied by two humans: an engineer who can take control of the vehicle when needed and a co-pilot who takes note. Bloomberg reports:
The Volvo deal isn't exclusive; Uber plans to partner with other automakers as it races to recruit more engineers. In July the company reached an agreement to buy Otto, a 91-employee driverless truck startup that was founded earlier this year and includes engineers from a number of high-profile tech companies attempting to bring driverless cars to market, including Google, Apple, and Tesla. Uber declined to disclose the terms of the arrangement, but a person familiar with the deal says that if targets are met, it would be worth 1percent of Uber's most recent valuation.
So, self-driving Ubers are here. My guess is that this is really going to push self-driving cars into the general consciousness. Good news for self-driving cars, maybe not so good news for Uber drivers. It also opens up the question of what's Ubers core market advantage when all taxi services are automated? I can easily see city-specific cab companies all signing up to create their own website / app together, especially since they compete with each other much less than they compete with Uber. But Uber might have other competitor too, because ...

Airbus Details Plan To Build Flying Taxis (https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/08/18/2129245/airbus-details-plan-to-build-flying-taxis)
Flying taxis, nuff said. Airbus plans to expand by turning Earth into Coruscant.

https://science.slashdot.org/story/16/08/18/2310242/satellite-images-can-map-poverty
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"A team from Stanford University were able to train a computer system to identify impoverished areas from satellite and survey data in five African countries. The latest study looked at daylight images that capture features such as paved roads and metal roofs -- markers that can help distinguish different levels of economic wellbeing in developing countries. They then used a sophisticated computer model to categorize the various indicators in daytime satellite images of Nigeria, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda and Malawi. 'If you give a computer enough data it can figure out what to look for. We trained a computer model to find things in imagery that are predictive of poverty,' said Dr Burke. 'It finds things like roads, like urban areas, like farmland, it finds waterways -- those are things we recognize. It also finds things we don't recognize. It finds patterns in imagery that to you or I don't really look like anything... but it's something the computer has figured out is predictive of where poor people are.' The researchers used imagery from countries for which survey data were available to validate the computer model's findings.
Pretty cool if we can adapt existing systems like that to give us a better understanding of third-world development without needing to rely on subjective measurements, local authorities figures, or get investigators to interfere on the ground. Doing the same analysis on photos across a time lapse would help identify areas which are missing out on development aid, regardless of politics or national borders, warfare.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on August 20, 2016, 01:18:10 am
How hackable are those cars?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 20, 2016, 01:20:45 am
IDK, but I just read another article saying there are electrical sockets with a chip in them and they can crack your WIFI password and be hacked to launch DDOS attacks. Don't put CPUs in everything people, it's stupid.

In other news however, the Kickstarter for the Onion Omega 2 computer is packaging a $5 computer which includes a 580MHz CPU, 64MB memory, 16MB storage, built-in Wi-Fi and a USB 2.0 port. Which is cool but makes it even easier to embed stupidly overpowered electronics into "smart" devices which don't need it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on August 20, 2016, 01:28:54 am
I would say something about WIFI, but no.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: martinuzz on August 20, 2016, 02:08:57 am
While this century we talk about Heroshima and Nagasaki as the greatest singular manmade loss of life events, next century, people will remember The Great Rush Hour Car Hack which killed millions.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 20, 2016, 03:25:48 am
That post conveniently segues into my next post:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130871-000-us-air-force-wants-to-plasma-bomb-the-sky-using-tiny-satellites/
Basically, the US Air Force plans to launch a network of plasma emitter satellites to try and permanently charge the ionosphere so that radio signal bounce farther.

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Another team, Enig Associates of Bethesda, Maryland, and researchers at the University of Maryland, want to rapidly heat a piece of metal by detonating a small bomb and converting the blast into electrical energy. Different shaped plasma clouds can be generated by changing the form of the initial explosion.

I'm not comfortable with them launching a network of satellites which launch bombs, regardless of the payload said bombs current have. It reads too much like a space-weapons test disguised as a communications system.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 20, 2016, 08:48:52 am
Lord knows Tesla would be happy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: mainiac on August 20, 2016, 12:12:04 pm
While this century we talk about Heroshima and Nagasaki as the greatest singular manmade loss of life events, next century, people will remember The Great Rush Hour Car Hack which killed millions.

Dude, Hiroshima and Nagasaki dont even stand out in terms of death toll.  Nanking, Warsaw, Leningrad, Wola, Bataan... and that's not even getting into the holocaust, the hunger plan (hint: the hungry people are civilians on land german wanted), the balkan genocides and the japanese treatment of the Chinese in general.  Like I know that wasn't the focus of your post but it's REALLY off the mark.

I realized we kinda lack a thread that's about general tech developments in "real world" contexts. Maybe this can be this thread. Recent news articles:

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/08/18/1351200/ubers-first-self-driving-fleet-arrives-in-pittsburgh-this-month

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It also opens up the question of what's Ubers core market advantage when all taxi services are automated? I can easily see city-specific cab companies all signing up to create their own website / app together, especially since they compete with each other much less than they compete with Uber.

Uber already has a lot of competition in terms of people willing to drive cars for money.  They aren't really making money due to driving cars, they are making money due to exploiting the shitshow that is US taxi regulation.

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/19/11439558/uber-model-regulatory-arbitrage
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: martinuzz on August 20, 2016, 05:01:19 pm
Dude, Hiroshima and Nagasaki dont even stand out in terms of death toll.  Nanking, Warsaw, Leningrad, Wola, Bataan... and that's not even getting into the holocaust, the hunger plan (hint: the hungry people are civilians on land german wanted), the balkan genocides and the japanese treatment of the Chinese in general.  Like I know that wasn't the focus of your post but it's REALLY off the mark.
Which is why I said singular event. Holocaust and hunger plan didn't happen in mere seconds. Heroshima and Nagasaki did, and so would a massive car pilot hack.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 20, 2016, 05:50:09 pm
IDK, but I just read another article saying there are electrical sockets with a chip in them and they can crack your WIFI password and be hacked to launch DDOS attacks. Don't put CPUs in everything people, it's stupid.

In other news however, the Kickstarter for the Onion Omega 2 computer is packaging a $5 computer which includes a 580MHz CPU, 64MB memory, 16MB storage, built-in Wi-Fi and a USB 2.0 port. Which is cool but makes it even easier to embed stupidly overpowered electronics into "smart" devices which don't need it.
Yeah, call me a luddite but why does my fridge need its own internet connection? It's a fridge. The biggest use I could think for it would be to let me dispense ice from my bedroom, and how useful would that be exactly?

I feel like manufacturers are doing it for the sake of doing it.

Its supposed to link to your smartphone.  It can track how long each item's been in your fridge, keep a running inventory of sorts, and can craft a shopping list on the fly based on your stocking habits and what's missing currently.  I think it also can play music, because.

Source: I sold appliances all summer as a seasonal job this year.  That said, I've seen nobody actually buy one.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Strife26 on August 20, 2016, 06:42:19 pm
Don't forget the fridge based Twitter updates!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on August 20, 2016, 06:44:37 pm
#IceColdFritch
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 20, 2016, 07:58:50 pm
#YourMilkIsGoingToExpireTomorrow
#HeyYourMilkIsRunningWithARoughCrowd
#IShotYourMilkOnceJustToWatchItDie
#TryingToSayYouNeedToBuyMilk
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: i2amroy on August 20, 2016, 10:04:34 pm
While this century we talk about Heroshima and Nagasaki as the greatest singular manmade loss of life events, next century, people will remember The Great Rush Hour Car Hack which killed millions.
Guess we Ghost in the Shell now. 'Scuse me while I go get my new cyberbrain. :P

And yeah, the main advantages to internet-bound everything is that we can start relaying things together to provide benefits; your fridge tracks your inventory automatically, your oven/stove recommend recipes based on what you've made before and what you need to use out of your fridge, your car then reminds you of what you need as you start to approach the shopping mart, and so forth.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 21, 2016, 05:17:50 am
And yeah, the main advantages to internet-bound everything is that we can start relaying things together to provide benefits; your fridge tracks your inventory automatically, your oven/stove recommend recipes based on what you've made before and what you need to use out of your fridge, your car then reminds you of what you need as you start to approach the shopping mart, and so forth.

Seems simpler to just take a picture of your fridge with your phone and take that into the store TBH. I have no idea why your car would do any of that, it seems about the worst way to go about that (if you really wanted to automate that, just have the fridge send a list to your phone, so much simpler.). Likewise for the stove, google recipes on your phone, takes no time at all. Plus you don't have to worry about dealing with the half-baked (hurr hurr) shitty interface that the stove company will inevitably come up with.

I.e. at least to me, these specific examples just sound like automation/IoT devices for the hell of it, they don't really seem to be solving any particular problem most people have. To be honest, having your car remind you of what you need seems so... primitive-futuristic, like the kind of futurism you would see in something like the Jetsons.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: Skynet on August 21, 2016, 09:09:55 am
Seems simpler to just take a picture of your fridge with your phone and take that into the store TBH.
Now create an iPhone app that can automatically take pictures of my fridge and send me a text message of them whenever I need to go grocery shopping, show it off to venture capitalists, and you're well on your way to forming a multibillion-dollar startup.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Gwolfski on August 23, 2016, 05:53:28 pm
The slight problem with internet everything is that it is quite easy to hack into stuff.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: mainiac on August 23, 2016, 07:02:21 pm
Right now some ingenious hacker could hack my phone and get my bank account info plus get the means to verify that they are in fact me.  Who gives a shit if they can get my grocery list?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on August 23, 2016, 07:07:14 pm
I think the objection is that a government or corporation could use that data (assuming you don't use rewards programs, which makes it redundant) to track your movement and metabolism and whatever else cam be done with the data, and create a model to predict your actions. Of course your ISP may have that data already.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 24, 2016, 01:12:55 am
I think the objection is that a government or corporation could use that data (assuming you don't use rewards programs, which makes it redundant) to track your movement and metabolism and whatever else cam be done with the data, and create a model to predict your actions. Of course your ISP may have that data already.

The government is not interested in your grocery shopping habits.

The grocery stores would be, but they already have pretty reliable ways of tracking that (e.g. like you said, reward cards). Who cares though? It's not exactly something IMO I would consider private.

Your ISP is not interested in your grocery shopping habits.

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Right now some ingenious hacker could hack my phone and get my bank account info plus get the means to verify that they are in fact me

No they probably can't. Just because some people hack some software sometimes, doesn't make everything trivially hackable. You don't see the countless failed attempts at hacking some software when you see a news report of someone hacking some other software.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: Vilanat on August 24, 2016, 04:02:11 am
And yeah, the main advantages to internet-bound everything is that we can start relaying things together to provide benefits; your fridge tracks your inventory automatically, your oven/stove recommend recipes based on what you've made before and what you need to use out of your fridge, your car then reminds you of what you need as you start to approach the shopping mart, and so forth.

Seems simpler to just take a picture of your fridge with your phone and take that into the store TBH. I have no idea why your car would do any of that, it seems about the worst way to go about that (if you really wanted to automate that, just have the fridge send a list to your phone, so much simpler.). Likewise for the stove, google recipes on your phone, takes no time at all. Plus you don't have to worry about dealing with the half-baked (hurr hurr) shitty interface that the stove company will inevitably come up with.

I.e. at least to me, these specific examples just sound like automation/IoT devices for the hell of it, they don't really seem to be solving any particular problem most people have. To be honest, having your car remind you of what you need seems so... primitive-futuristic, like the kind of futurism you would see in something like the Jetsons.

And yeah, the main advantages to internet-bound everything is that we can start relaying things together to provide benefits; your fridge tracks your inventory automatically, your oven/stove recommend recipes based on what you've made before and what you need to use out of your fridge, your car then reminds you of what you need as you start to approach the shopping mart, and so forth.

Seems simpler to just take a picture of your fridge with your phone and take that into the store TBH. I have no idea why your car would do any of that, it seems about the worst way to go about that (if you really wanted to automate that, just have the fridge send a list to your phone, so much simpler.). Likewise for the stove, google recipes on your phone, takes no time at all. Plus you don't have to worry about dealing with the half-baked (hurr hurr) shitty interface that the stove company will inevitably come up with.

I.e. at least to me, these specific examples just sound like automation/IoT devices for the hell of it, they don't really seem to be solving any particular problem most people have. To be honest, having your car remind you of what you need seems so... primitive-futuristic, like the kind of futurism you would see in something like the Jetsons.

As opposed to the fridge taking pictures itself, transimitting the list of groceries needed to a store that then send it through a drone/automated car that then deliver it to your I-Battler 2.0 that arranges the groceries inside your fridge? not only that it will be simpler for us Human, it could also save us a lot of time and redundant commuting to the store.

And if you manage to teach your I-Battler 2.0 to also cook from those Google recipes you can achieve Royalty levels of comfort. as much as i sometimes enjoy cooking, it has become a chore that takes a lot of my/wife time. if i could get back from work and have a hot meal ready for us, that is something i'd be willing to pay a premium on grocery prices and for the I-Battler 2.0 itself.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 24, 2016, 05:31:37 am
Yes, because if there is one thing grocery companies are concerned with, its making the shopping experience as quick and efficient as possible. They are the same companies that go out of their way to put common items far apart so you have to travel farther. They want you to buy more than you need, and to make impulse purchase, desirable behaviours your system does not encourage. Your trying to remove the human element when that's exactly what these companies depend upon.

Our economic system values consumption, not efficiency.

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As opposed to the fridge taking pictures itself

Automating something that takes mere seconds has no benefit IMO. Especially when it involves integrating, setting up, tinkering to get it working with your Wi-Fi configuration etc.

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drone/automated car

Home delivery is already a thing. Use that. I don't see how removing the driver makes anything easier for you. The argument in favour of automated delivery is usually an economic one, but you have already stated you would be willing to pay a premium.

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that arranges the groceries inside your fridge

You put the groceries inside your fridge. This is not hard nor time consuming. There are many things that could be automated to great effect - this is not one of them.

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not only that it will be simpler for us Human

These systems need to be manufactured, are going to crash, misinterpret what you want, require maintenance, setup, upgrades etc. Overall I don't imagine that that would take a whole lot of time or effort, but when you are replacing something that also already doesn't take a whole lot of time or effort with this, it just doesn't seem to have much net benefit. It just seems like your replacing one slight pain in the ass with another.

I don't think automated cooking is a bad idea. Out of the activities you mentioned, it is probably the most time consuming, and is certainly a more substantial thing to automate than merely looking up recipes. I imagine it would take another form though, perhaps some high-quality instant meal you could just microwave/dehydrate or something.

I think automated cars have a place, especially when e.g. it comes to commuting to and from work. This could free up a decent chunk of time for some people. Delivery vehicles tend to visit multiple places with one driver, so I don't see automated delivery vehicles being much more efficient than what we have in that context.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 24, 2016, 05:43:10 am
https://xkcd.com/974/
https://xkcd.com/1205/
https://xkcd.com/1319/

Food for thought.
# Food for thought needs restocking. Would you like to re-order? [Yes/No/Surprise me/Global Thermonuclear War] #
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on August 24, 2016, 05:55:04 am
ITT: automated fridge selfies
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: Vilanat on August 24, 2016, 01:31:34 pm

Our economic system values consumption, not efficiency.


The rapid rise of online shopping seems to suggest efficiency is still a big factor and if there was a system that enable your fridge to always be full without any physical intervention on a human side besides clicking on stuff on an App on a weekly basis, that fridge will sell and the stores that fill that fridge will sell. if it could also cook your dinner then its sales would sky rocket, because it's not just taking picture of a fridge, it's remembering to take a picture of your fridge (which is inconvenient since often times you go shopping before going back home from work), going to a store, or alternatively shopping online and it's going back from the store or alternatively, waiting for a delivery guy that always seems to come at the wrong times. and it doesn't even contradicts the current impulse driven stores arrangements since stores could just say "Hey, we noticed you like Beans, here's a Chilli Con Carne recipe and all the ingredients in it are now at 25% off.", "That Gouda goes really well with a glass of red wine on the side, which has a 1+1 promotion". i am going to take an educated guess here: most households eat basic, recurring dinners on work days and put the extra effort only on weekends (If they aren't totally lazy and order a take out). a system which puts a hot meal at your table just as you walk in will diversify dinners and hence grocery items, which would drive up impulse sales of ingredients.

For me, grocery shopping is a chore and a time waster. if something can make that redundant, i'll use it.

Obviously it would have technical difficulties at first (That Internet Pet feeding machine that stopped feeding pets because their servers crashed comes to mind) and people could hack it, but in the long run, whether we like it or not, this is going to be a thing and it's going to be extremely popular.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 24, 2016, 07:09:27 pm
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The rapid rise of online shopping seems to suggest efficiency is still a big factor
Online shopping still requires you to navigate through the virtual store while bombarding you with specials etc. It's the same thing.

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if there was a system that enable your fridge to always be full without any physical intervention on a human side ... that fridge will sell
I have already stated how I seriously doubt that this is something which is of a concern to most people.

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clicking on stuff on an App on a weekly basis
Until it needs updating, but then it only works on the newer version of Android, so you update your phone to that. Then one of the apps you use breaks with it and you spend the next couple of hours fixing that.

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it's remembering to take a picture of your fridge
Use Calendar if you really forget this? Alarm? Solutions to this problem already exist. You just replaced pushing the camera button with pushing the app button. Same thing, really.

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a delivery guy that always seems to come at the wrong times
These systems are built, programmed, maintained, and administered by humans. I doubt that throwing drones at this problem will make it go away.

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Hey, we noticed you like Beans, here's a Chilli Con Carne recipe and all the ingredients in it are now at 25% off
Oh good, now I have adverts on my phone I need to deal with and dismiss. This is really starting to sound like a bigger pain in the ass than just doing it myself.

I would seriously doubt the effectiveness of advertisements, at this point, most people have been conditioned to dismiss and ignore advertisements on their phones. The main income for apps tend to IAP's.

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a system which puts a hot meal at your table just as you walk in
We have that, its called a microwave oven, takes only a few minutes.

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technical difficulties at first
Technical difficulties are likely to be ongoing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 24, 2016, 07:35:56 pm
Agree, a system that "puts a hot meal on your table just as you walk in" could actually be really annoying. Say I was late or ate out, does the food just go bad or get dumped? We have takeaway places for the need of quick fix meals, we really don't need home robotics to solve the "problem" of "don't feel like cooking".

Choices don't exist in a vacuum. While this home-robotics thing is improving, so will commercial food robotics, and they are likely to be ahead of the curve on this. Economies of scale. e.g. those burger robots who make 400 burgers an hour. A home-robotics system is unlikely to be able to compete with that. There are already takeout choices that are far cheaper than DIY cooking, e.g. $5 large pizzas at dominos. I doubt I could work out the home ingredients for a $5 pizza like theirs.

The problem may be that we're applying an old paradigm and just high-teching it. We are making the same mistakes about The Future as The Jetsons did. Rather than have a super-fridge which tracks supplies, and has an army of robots to keep it stocked and make meals, with drone-deliveries of bulk raw materials, why wouldn't people dispense with the large fridge altogether, thus saving on energy and costs, and get individual meals drone-delivered?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 24, 2016, 09:05:46 pm
Yeah, I still can't believe the quality and the price I can get pizza delivered to my door. I could do cheaper if I did it myself, but not by much.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: mainiac on August 24, 2016, 09:40:45 pm
why wouldn't people dispense with the large fridge altogether, thus saving on energy and costs, and get individual meals drone-delivered?

That does sound like a disruptive technology that could succeed.  No need for a replicator when you can just order in.  However we seem to be extremely resistant towards automating the cooking process for meals.  A restaurant kitchen is basically unchanged since 100 years ago.  This is despite quite a bit of automation in the food that ends up on the shelves at the grocery store.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on August 24, 2016, 09:49:05 pm
Social question: What happens to the wait-staff after they're replaced by mechanization?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 24, 2016, 09:50:55 pm
Restaurant's (at least not the casual dining ones) aren't the kind of place you go to for a cheap, quick, and efficient meal.

It's kind of like a concert versus a recording, there is that extra human element that makes it worth while for people. This can be true even in cases when the chef isn't anything special, and could be replaced with some automated system with little effect.

Sound recording has been a thing for well over a century, and live performances still exist. I don't see human-chef restaurants disappearing anytime soon.

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Social question: What happens to the wait-staff after they're replaced by mechanization?

They find other jobs. Or they get a job at the restaurant up the road that still uses humans (and has a reliable customer base just because of that)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on August 24, 2016, 09:56:43 pm
They find other jobs. Or they get a job at the restaurant up the road that still uses humans (and has a reliable customer base just because of that)
So you believe this will always be possible?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 24, 2016, 10:23:17 pm
They find other jobs. Or they get a job at the restaurant up the road that still uses humans (and has a reliable customer base just because of that)
So you believe this will always be possible?

No, the job market fluctuates, so it might be easy/hard to do.

If they can't find a job in the time since they have been notified they are being made redundant (something like this is usually known ahead of time), then they file for unemployment and continue looking.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on August 24, 2016, 10:44:16 pm
This is despite quite a bit of automation in the food that ends up on the shelves at the grocery store.
I legit don't know, but isn't most of that automation only really effective on scales significantly larger than your average kitchen? I can only remember seeing in passing is stuff that's like... industrial. In the sense that it stops really working below a certain size.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 24, 2016, 11:11:18 pm
In China, noodle restaurants are starting to use "noodle making robots", which have a human facade.
http://www.techinsider.io/creepy-noodle-making-robot-is-a-masterpiece-2015-8

But the bits that make them look "human" are entirely cosmetic: they are fashioned after people because Chinese expect a person to be the noodle slicer. Once it's been automated for long enough, perhaps people won't care whether the noodle-bot looks like a person or not.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 24, 2016, 11:33:03 pm
Well, at least they didn't try to make them look like a realistic human, that would just be too creepy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Mech#4 on August 24, 2016, 11:44:15 pm
I kind of imagine a noodle making machine to look like a large play-doh extruder. They don't look creepy to me so much as they remind me of robots from 80s japanese shows like Power Rangers or similar.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 25, 2016, 12:02:15 am
Ramen Rider
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on August 25, 2016, 12:06:08 am
Actually exists, apparently. At the very least it's the name of a character in something called Ninja High School. Which rings a bell for some reason I can't remember, but eh.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Mech#4 on August 25, 2016, 12:38:58 am
Ramen Rider

During the day he is a humble noodle shop owner. However, when night falls, he fights againt the forces of evil using powers gifted by the FSM!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: Vilanat on August 25, 2016, 12:56:56 am
Online shopping still requires you to navigate through the virtual store while bombarding you with specials etc. It's the same thing.
The same thing as what? going to a grocery store? no, it's not and the most prominent reason for the success of Online grocery shopping is that it spares people of physically going to the store.

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I have already stated how I seriously doubt that this is something which is of a concern to most people.

I have already stated how i seriously believe it will be a success in households with two working adults and kids, in countries which are more suitable to these kind of systems and with people who are just good old lazy (or highly value their off-work time)

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Until it needs updating, but then it only works on the newer version of Android, so you update your phone to that. Then one of the apps you use breaks with it and you spend the next couple of hours fixing that.
So you update it once every few months and it breaks once a year so you re-download the App. seems like much more time saving than shopping through an interface that can break as well or physically going to a store.

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These systems are built, programmed, maintained, and administered by humans. I doubt that throwing drones at this problem will make it go away.

The programming, maintaining and administering of the system is not relevant to the timing of the delivery, plus, the big advantage is you don't have to wait for the drone, it hands over the groceris to I-Battler 2.0 and it packs it so the timing of the groceries delivery will become a non issue.

We already have similar things. services that deliver daily random recieps to your doorstep, which are often being left there for an hour or so till you come back home and pack it in the fridge. the system will spare the grocery waiting time, packing time and in the added case of the cooking I-Battler, cooking time.

Quote
Oh good, now I have adverts on my phone I need to deal with and dismiss. This is really starting to sound like a bigger pain in the ass than just doing it myself.

I would seriously doubt the effectiveness of advertisements, at this point, most people have been conditioned to dismiss and ignore advertisements on their phones. The main income for apps tend to IAP's.

Again, a bigger pain in that ass than browsing through an Online shopping App or website that already does those things, or going to a physical store and getting the same promotions suggestions from sales persons/cashiers? i don't think so.

IAP's is the biggest income for which apps? mobile games? perhaps, but there is still a place for advertising, especially in promotion advertising, especially in consumption.

Quote
We have that, its called a microwave oven, takes only a few minutes.

Your microwave prepares you a salad? makes you a sandwich? heck, does it even heat your pizza on its own?

Agree, a system that "puts a hot meal on your table just as you walk in" could actually be really annoying. Say I was late or ate out, does the food just go bad or get dumped? We have takeaway places for the need of quick fix meals, we really don't need home robotics to solve the "problem" of "don't feel like cooking".

I-Battler wont be offended if you tell it take the time off and cook yourself, plus, it could track your movement and start/progress the meal by it or require a confirmation for starting it.

Quote
Choices don't exist in a vacuum. While this home-robotics thing is improving, so will commercial food robotics, and they are likely to be ahead of the curve on this. Economies of scale. e.g. those burger robots who make 400 burgers an hour. A home-robotics system is unlikely to be able to compete with that. There are already takeout choices that are far cheaper than DIY cooking, e.g. $5 large pizzas at dominos. I doubt I could work out the home ingredients for a $5 pizza like theirs.

The problem with that is the delivery time from the second the meal is ready to the second you start eating it will always be longer than cooking it inhouse and there are certain meals which simply can't maintain the same level of quality even in a 20 minutes commune. regardless, commercial places, even fully automatic ones, still have added overheads like management, marketing, rent, taxes etc.. the cost savings in terms of efficieny and bulk purchasing of the ingredients could very well be lower than these overheads, but that is something which is still remain to be seen though, maybe it will be cheaper.

Quote
The problem may be that we're applying an old paradigm and just high-teching it. We are making the same mistakes about The Future as The Jetsons did. Rather than have a super-fridge which tracks supplies, and has an army of robots to keep it stocked and make meals, with drone-deliveries of bulk raw materials, why wouldn't people dispense with the large fridge altogether, thus saving on energy and costs, and get individual meals drone-delivered?

The army of robots replaces current existing machines, only making them smarter (with the added robot for fridge packing-delivery to the kitchen) but Yes, that is a good idea and argument. in certain countries the shopping habbit is very similar to that where people shop daily only for tonight's meal rather than in bulk and on a week long planning (Which surprisngly turned out cheaper for people since they barely throw out rotten food). they usually have smaller fridges, but they still have them to store "snacks" or basically, everything that is relevant to an impulse/instant consumption. Wine, Beverages, Fruits, Milk etc..

In China, noodle restaurants are starting to use "noodle making robots", which have a human facade.
http://www.techinsider.io/creepy-noodle-making-robot-is-a-masterpiece-2015-8

But the bits that make them look "human" are entirely cosmetic: they are fashioned after people because Chinese expect a person to be the noodle slicer. Once it's been automated for long enough, perhaps people won't care whether the noodle-bot looks like a person or not.

I have seen a documentary of Japan, in which it said that due to their specific religious background, they believe inanimate objects have souls too, so their robots also have souls which is why they are more likely to get attached to them. they shown a burial of a pet robot that broke. creepy, yet somehow very... "progressive".

Tried looking for it, couldn't, but found this instead:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/12/mourn-robotic-dog-human-sony
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on August 25, 2016, 01:31:22 am
That explains the pillows....
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrWiggles on August 25, 2016, 01:33:55 am
ITT: Why invent or do anything new ever? Stuff working right now, right?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Vilanat on August 25, 2016, 01:34:18 am
That explains the pillows....

Wont be long till they start marrying their robots.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on August 25, 2016, 01:38:00 am
That explains the pillows....

Wont be long till they start marrying their robots.
If the robot is intelligent and free-willed enough to consent, why object?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Vilanat on August 25, 2016, 01:44:39 am
I don't object, will just find it strange if/when that happens. and they will probably start marrying them long before they become intelligent enough for that.

Fake edit: Yep, long before :D (Although, it doesn't seem to be in Japan)
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/married-to-a-doll-why-one-man-advocates-synthetic-love/279361/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 25, 2016, 03:58:34 am
Ramen Rider

During the day he is a humble noodle shop owner. However, when night falls, he fights againt the forces of evil using powers gifted by the FSM!

Already covered by the...
Spoiler: Samurai Pizza Cats (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on August 25, 2016, 04:08:11 am
That explains the pillows....

Wont be long till they start marrying their robots.
If the robot is intelligent and free-willed enough to consent, why object?
There's a whole tv series around the subject. Can recommend, was a fun watch back when they broadcasted it on our public channel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Humans
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 25, 2016, 05:23:58 am
This robot is becoming more and more complex, and I think you are missing the point I am trying to make (though that may be my fault, the posts were typed in a bit of a rush).

this is what people imagined (http://images.techtimes.com/data/images/full/35458/rosie-the-robot.jpg). Technology is probably advanced enough to do something like this (minus the human AI, and various mechanical-artistic-licences anyway).

But this is what we got (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/IRobot_Roomba_780.jpg). A slab of injection-moulded plastic and some wheels.

The former is overkill to serve a single household. It would be either be very expensive, or very prone to failure. We get the latter instead, it's cheap, simple, reasonably effective etc.

My argument is not against the desirability of your robot, its against its practicality and economic plausibility. The most trivial applications (e.g. ability to move arbitrary objects into arbitrary places) require the most complex (and expensive) hardware (complex actuators and sensors for tasks that take minutes and little effort to complete) whereas the more complex and potentially useful functions (e.g. cooking) are either already mostly-automated (microwave, premade sandwiches/salads), or could probably better be automated by some dedicated machine (e.g. skinning, cutting potatoes probably isn't that hard to automate if that's all it needs to do), or would be more efficiently automated on a larger scale. Simply getting groceries out of pantries and fridges would require much more complex hardware and software than preparing and cooking most of those groceries, which would take more effort from the human.

Quote
ITT: Why invent or do anything new ever? Stuff working right now, right?

I give an example of an alternative method of automating something. But its not a robot. So luddite?

Have I not communicate what I mean clearly? Perhaps I didn't TBH. Or is it just that any criticism, even slight, of any form of automation (even if hypothetical) means opposition to technology and progress?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: Frumple on August 25, 2016, 07:13:31 am
Again, a bigger pain in that ass than browsing through an Online shopping App or website that already does those things, or going to a physical store and getting the same promotions suggestions from sales persons/cashiers? i don't think so.
Hold up. What kind of grocery stores are you going to that have sales people on the floor or cashiers trying to pump goods? I think I've been approached shopping by an employee trying to push something like... twice in the last five years, if that. And I've generally been the one shopping either for myself or my family for a while now. Most I've ever seen from a cashier on that front is asking about rewards programs of some sort, and that's almost always been less time and trouble than getting rid of a pop-up. A, singular.

I'd definitely say ad wise, an online system is going to lose out hard on the nuisance front if they're working ad revenue at all. If there's  a grocery venue that has that as even a notable thing, never mind a sufficient amount to be a concern, I've never been inside it. And, again, I food shop fairly often, and comparison shop occasionally, too -- I've probably been inside most sizable food selling businesses (and a lot of small ones, too) within a good hundred miles of my home, at some point or another. Maybe even further. Definitely further for less thorough coverage.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 25, 2016, 01:53:06 pm
I also find the concept of getting "sales promotions" from the cashiers at the supermarket to be a bizarre concept. That literally never happens. Do you even supermarket? The only time i get approached by a sales pimp is in electronics stores.


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The rapid rise of online shopping seems to suggest efficiency is still a big factor and if there was a system that enable your fridge to always be full without any physical intervention on a human side besides clicking on stuff on an App on a weekly basis, that fridge will sell and the stores that fill that fridge will sell

This is what I mean about Jetsons-like thinking. "Full fridge" "weekly basis" already harks back to a previous era. There's literally zero reason to adhere to those standards if we live in a world with advanced robotics and drone-delivered groceries. Restocking weekly implies that your using food that's up to a week old in your meals. Forget worrying about a 20 minute delay on pre-prepared meals if you're not actually cooking with fresh ingredients. The meals you get sent in will be made with fresher ingredients than you can conceivably chow through if everything is prepared by robots at home. And of course, what's going to be the most efficient shape of this home-cooking robot? My guess is that it's going to have to be a human-shaped robot, and thus need all of the same kitchen bits and pieces we already have. This thing is going to have to take the garbage out, defrost freezers, do full cleaning, peel vegetables, keep the sink unclogged, the lot. So at the very least, it's going to take as much space as having a whole person around.

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/08/25/1441211/singapore-launches-worlds-first-self-driving-taxi-service?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed
Meanwhile, Signapore has beat Uber to the punch already launching a robot-car taxi service. Though the current crop of robotaxis have a human "wingman" driver and a researcher sitting in the back. One set for a passenger I guess. They hope to go 100% auto by 2018.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Vilanat on August 25, 2016, 04:16:06 pm
Hmm, must be just an Israeli thing then. we usually got those on the Alcohol section, Cheese Section and Dairy products sections. often times it really isn't bothering, and sometimes (raerly though) you actually do discover nice new products (They usually involve free tastings of newly launched products). now that i think about it, i actually can't think of a single time i have seen those in States. although, i am almost sure i have in Portugal and Spain, but can't really be sure.

Quote
This is what I mean about Jetsons-like thinking. "Full fridge" "weekly basis" already harks back to a previous era. There's literally zero reason to adhere to those standards if we live in a world with advanced robotics and drone-delivered groceries. Restocking weekly implies that your using food that's up to a week old in your meals. Forget worrying about a 20 minute delay on pre-prepared meals if you're not actually cooking with fresh ingredients. The meals you get sent in will be made with fresher ingredients than you can conceivably chow through if everything is prepared by robots at home. And of course, what's going to be the most efficient shape of this home-cooking robot? My guess is that it's going to have to be a human-shaped robot, and thus need all of the same kitchen bits and pieces we already have. This thing is going to have to take the garbage out, defrost freezers, do full cleaning, peel vegetables, keep the sink unclogged, the lot. So at the very least, it's going to take as much space as having a whole person around.


No, i disagree here. as i said, there are certain items you want to always be around regardless of the main meals and i'd rather have a salad freshly cut from a week old vegetables than one an hour after it got cut from a day old vegetable. i'd rather have a month old Steak that got slowly defrosted fresh off the grill than one that was butchered at the same day but get it 20 minutes after it got off the grill. its the handling of the ingredients that makes them rapidly lose quality and keeping them warm is not enough. If i had to get you through a blind tasting of a week's old vegetables and ones that got picked yesterday, i am not entirely convinced you'd know the difference. besides, the likeliness of having a week's old ingredients is higher with people who has less time to shop and thus have to plan a head. with a self delivery, self packing system, the weekly basis is just for confirmation. the ingredients could be sent to you on a daily basis.

And Why does it need to be shaped like a human? let's plan a head for 50 years ahead. why couldn't it be a drone with a sort of clippers?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 25, 2016, 04:18:44 pm
A drone with clipper-hands would be terrible at doing literally all the kitchen tasks. Is this some sort of flying drone? In your kitchen?

You're underestimating by far the range of tasks that it needs to do, handles on things, opening jars, storing and checking use-by dates etc. Defrosting freezers, cleaning stoves, sweep and mop floors, unclogging sinks. A few custom tools isn't going to cut it. You need something that has hands and the weight of a body behind it to be able to do the full range of kitchen-related tasks. And everything there is built around the human form. Sure, you could have a custom floor-cleaner bot, and a custom sink-unclogging bot, and all the other non-humanoid bots you want. Or you could keep it simple and make a humanoid robot to do all the things.

Then remember that people could cram shit into the fridge and freezer in untidy ways. This thing can't rely on things being tidy and "on rails" or orderly in there, which would allow our current understanding of machine learning to ID e.g. "Jar of pickles". it needs to e.g. be able to pull everything out of the freezer because something it needs is stuck at the bottom there, and the rest is crammed with bagged up stuff frozen together that needs to be pulled apart, and it needs to deal with other humans who have made a mess of things. And that's assuming it can ID the jar of pickles, get it out of the fridge, open the jar, extract a pickle, cut the pickle, use the pickle in cooking, then clean all the implements it needed to use, and put everything back into the fridge. Basically it would need a human-level intelligence.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 25, 2016, 06:11:56 pm
They find other jobs. Or they get a job at the restaurant up the road that still uses humans (and has a reliable customer base just because of that)
So you believe this will always be possible?

No, the job market fluctuates, so it might be easy/hard to do.

If they can't find a job in the time since they have been notified they are being made redundant (something like this is usually known ahead of time), then they file for unemployment and continue looking.
Seems like a problem with the whole "if you aren't doing at minimum some sort of menial make-work task you're a bad person and probably going to some sort of awful afterlife punishment" mentality if anything.

Making machines which replace laborers means more people can do things like, be creative, be inquisitive, teach, learn, explore, discuss, and maybe even the idea that life doesn't have to be a punishment might spread... or we can toss each new chunk of obsolete workers into ever more menial tasks until we literally have office buildings with people sitting there pushing buttons which do nothing (because even the job of making the useless buttons is better off automated) for 8 hours a day 5 days a week because, well, you can't do something like let people expect any sort of quality of life improvements without them jumping through hoops first, right?


...though, flying drones with meatslicer attachments could solve the problem of obsolete workers entirely, but I don't think anyone wants to go down that road just yet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Skynet on August 25, 2016, 06:15:22 pm
Making machines which replace laborers means more people can do things like, be creative, be inquisitive, teach, learn, explore, discuss, and maybe even the idea that life doesn't have to be a punishment might spread....

Nah, we will simply build bots that can do things like, be creative, inquisitive, teach, learn, explore, discuss...

I mean, we already are on this road. What gives you the right to say that a job is menial? That it is worthless? Suppose working in a restaurant can't be automated away? Suppose people want the interpersonal skills that only restaurant workers can provide? Then we call that a job that requires creativity/inquisition/teaching/learning/exploring/discussion/etc. and the high watermark of human achievement. And suppose another world where people don't want the interpersonal skills and will accept the robots. Then that same work become meaningless "busywork", probably even punishment. The only difference between the two scenarios...is whether a bot can do that work.

What happens when robots write textbooks, you know, to save students money since the computer-generated textbooks are cheaper than hiring humans? (http://articles.philly.com/2015-11-29/news/68626755_1_new-technology-textbook-robots) I'd consider writing books to be creative, but...

Quote
Darrell West, director for technology innovation at the Brookings Institution, said the educators' project has merit.

"It's good that we're figuring out how to use robots to make our lives easier. There are tasks they can do very well and that free humans for more creative enterprises," he said, alluding to the Associated Press' "Statsmonkey," which writes basic stories based on box scores and play-by-play information.

We'll just keep going up the chain of abstraction, dismissing anything that can be automated away because it'll give us a chance to work on "more creative enterprises"...until we start automating away those "more creative enterprises" too. I mean, it's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 25, 2016, 06:30:18 pm
>.>

Did Skynet just respond to my post about kitchen drones with "long pork" suicide recipes?

I've been up for like two days so I'm loopy but it looks like it says Skynet, where's John Connor?

In case you're not a murderous AI bent on eradicating us meatfolk, I'd be content with a situation where people work and do tasks because they enjoy them, I enjoy teaching, I enjoy fixing things, I enjoy taking care of animals, I don't need to be paid for these, but I need to be paid to live, so I have to seek payment for something, though it is unfortunate that reducing an enjoyable task to a necessary chore often reduces the enjoyment, it's better than doing something I really dislike I suppose.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Skynet on August 25, 2016, 06:37:08 pm
In case you're not a murderous AI bent on eradicating us meatfolk, I'd be content with a situation where people work and do tasks because they enjoy them, I enjoy teaching, I enjoy fixing things, I enjoy taking care of animals, I don't need to be paid for these, but I need to be paid to live, so I have to seek payment for something, though it is unfortunate that reducing an enjoyable task to a necessary chore often reduces the enjoyment, it's better than doing something I really dislike I suppose.

That makes sense. There's certainly some situations in my life where I'd probably prefer doing work because I enjoy them...and not simply to earn a paycheck. I'm just not so optimistic that automation would be the best way of accomplishing such a lofty goal. Automation that is properly controlled would help out, but uncontrolled automation has the potential to cause disaster.

I've been up for like two days so I'm loopy but it looks like it says Skynet, where's John Connor?
No comment.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on August 25, 2016, 06:44:25 pm
snip
Well... huzzah? Then we can live our lives of luxury consuming all the wonderful marvels the machines make for us. Or maybe even make some ourselves. It's not like having one producer of stuff invalidates all the other producers of similar (/nigh identical) stuff. Maybe makes it suboptimal to purchase from said others (i.e. humans, in this scenario), but it's not like people don't make suboptimal acquisition decisions with nigh-farcically incredible regularity.

Personally, my only concern with a machine being able to make the stuff I do, but better/cheaper, is whether I'll still be able to eat/access that stuff once it takes over. I'm okay having my abilities outmatched by a bot on all levels and my productive capabilities superseded so long as it doesn't mean starving in the streets, bored to death on top of it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 25, 2016, 06:45:26 pm
Well yeah, we need automation AND to get people out of the mindset that capitalism is some sort of virtuous ideology which benefits all, because it ain't going to work as it exists now, and though I doubt it will happen it would be nice if it just died quietly and let us move on to a post-capital society, but I am sure it will thrash and fight and cling on long after it should have.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on August 25, 2016, 08:33:07 pm
Well yeah, we need automation AND to get people out of the mindset that capitalism is some sort of virtuous ideology which benefits all, because it ain't going to work as it exists now, and though I doubt it will happen it would be nice if it just died quietly and let us move on to a post-capital society, but I am sure it will thrash and fight and cling on long after it should have.
The form of society is a result of desire as much as need.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 25, 2016, 09:23:57 pm
Exactly.  Many people want to upgrade their $1k phones, and are willing to work the extra time to do it.

Automation could reduce the cost of these items (and thus labour required to acquire those items), or it could just increase the complexity/upgrade-rate of them. So now your phone has numerous new features and takes twice as much labour to produce, but with automation you break even and end up in the same position.

Even with our current level of technology, we could probably significantly reduce labour and poverty/inequality with some hypothetical economic system, but some of us might not have access to all the same luxuries we have right now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: mainiac on August 25, 2016, 10:17:49 pm
The cost of your phone is mostly the cost of creating the large fixed capital investments to make the parts.  You need specialized equipment to make the glass, you need specialized equipment to make a the cpu semi-conductor, etc.  In theory a communist initiative could make those investments more efficiently and give you lower costs by cutting out the profit but there isn't much real world experience to back that up.  And I dont really see why we wouldn't want to keep up the cycle of better phones every year instead of cheaper phones.  I think most people would have a tangible improvement in quality of life if their phone was twice as fast, twice as efficient on the battery, etc.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 25, 2016, 10:31:08 pm
Technology improves and changes, so new investments in manufacturing equipment have to be made.

I don't disagree with you about the phone thing, it really depends on what you want in life I suppose. Smartphones are incredibly useful tools. What I said was really just to demonstrate the point that automation doesn't necessarily lead to less labour, and that people wanting "a better system that lets you do what you want" don't consider the possibility that one of those things some, possibly a substantial number of people want is more and better stuff.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Gwolfski on August 26, 2016, 05:12:38 am
They find other jobs. Or they get a job at the restaurant up the road that still uses humans (and has a reliable customer base just because of that)
So you believe this will always be possible?
-snip-
 or we can toss each new chunk of obsolete workers into ever more menial tasks until we literally have office buildings with people sitting there pushing buttons which do nothing (because even the job of making the useless buttons is better off automated) for 8 hours a day 5 days a week -snip-

look up corporation inc.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 26, 2016, 05:39:58 am
Exactly.  Many people want to upgrade their $1k phones, and are willing to work the extra time to do it.

Automation could reduce the cost of these items (and thus labour required to acquire those items), or it could just increase the complexity/upgrade-rate of them. So now your phone has numerous new features and takes twice as much labour to produce, but with automation you break even and end up in the same position.

Even with our current level of technology, we could probably significantly reduce labour and poverty/inequality with some hypothetical economic system, but some of us might not have access to all the same luxuries we have right now.
Well, we could definitely reduce inequality a lot, but a big part of the reason we aren't and won't any time soon is that having luxuries is treated like a goal in itself. You can't spend a billion dollars, you have to be a government to toss those sorts of numbers around, so what is the point of a few people accumulating those amounts of wealth?

If you want to have a better smartphone, I am sure there would be people who want to make them, but the technological arc would be different if there wasn't an incentive for offering small incremental improvements in a wrapper of planned obsolescence.

Encouraging the automation of labor and regular discarding of resources in the name of profit margins is what led to the insanity that Gwolfski is pointing at, where corporate entities have goals of their own, and rights, and so forth.

Modern fondleslabs are fucking amazing, you drop someone with one just a couple of decades back and they're full on sci-fi territory just from that one device. I remember dreaming up stuff like them as handheld computers for inventor characters in rpgs as part of my "whiz-bang gizmo loadout" and those still weren't as impressive as modern ones... once you leave out stuff like optional self-destruct systems, built-in combat lasers, and the like.

We're already well into the territory where we can't just keep throwing transistors at the problem for massive gains, we've already got scifi toys we carry around in our pocket, but we've gotten accustomed to "the next upgrade" and "the next killer app" by now.

That doesn't seem like it will work out well in the long run when you get big insane* corporate entities asking things like "employee productivity loss due to bathroom breaks and food consumption is a problem, what if we could get rid of the need to eat and eliminate?" and keep applying upgrade cycles until you get where there is no reason to keep employing people beyond needing someone to buy your stuff.

Wait, that could be the next big app!

"Introducing the eMployee2.0: now with 'wants' and 'needs' to fulfill!"


*I'm not sure if insane or lacking sanity is more apt here, they don't have human motivations or minds even, so something which benefits a corporate entity but screws over people would only seem insane if you aren't a corporate entity I guess?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 26, 2016, 05:59:38 am
2.5 million tonnes of used electrical goods in America every year.

3.5 million new phones in Australia in the last 12 months.

Just saying...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on August 26, 2016, 07:51:41 am

I don't know if such pursuits ("creativity/inquisition/teaching/learning/exploring/discussion") are inherent desires/goals of humans, and that all/most people actually want this.

Yes, more technology will not lead to reduced working hours and more leisure times, I agree with that. Technology is advanced enough that at this stage, the difficulty with bringing the world you describe into existence is almost exclusively social and not a technological one. It is one of my pet peeves that people seem to think technological developments on their own will bring about some sort of utopia.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 26, 2016, 07:58:41 am
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that it will happen like that, I was just saying that options and such besides "do menial tasks or starve" are doable, but socially unacceptable currently.

There's only been one socialist utopia that I know of: The Culture, and it required ridiculously high-end magictech alongside a suitable social system to even work in a story setting where it is one of the main players.

Arguably I was leaning towards the dystopic end of the scale with my "well let's just automate everything and let the market sort it out" scenario.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, AI Etc
Post by: Aklyon on August 26, 2016, 08:08:55 am
IDK, but I just read another article saying there are electrical sockets with a chip in them and they can crack your WIFI password and be hacked to launch DDOS attacks. Don't put CPUs in everything people, it's stupid.
The Internet of Things, where security isn't even part of the design. But getting in the news because they forgot to add a decent bit of it is!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on August 27, 2016, 06:27:44 pm
looks like Tesla made a battery with over 300 miles of range:

http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/23/12611466/tesla-battery-upgrade-p100d-model-s-x-ludicrous
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: mainiac on August 27, 2016, 06:31:57 pm
Is there a special significance to 300 or is it just a bigger number?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 27, 2016, 10:35:00 pm
I don't think so, but it does mean the car is viable for many more consumers than before. Maybe you can now do a 150-mile round-trip, or you can recharge it every second night rather than have to every night. The top Tesla model can now go 20 miles extra before topping up, and the 2nd-highest model can go an extra 40 miles before topping up. Which is not to be sneezed at.

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/08/27/2041240/dominos-will-deliver-pizza-by-drone-and-by-robot
Dominos have been testing pizza drones in New Zealand. They point out how much they save on fuel by not sending a whole car to deliver your pizza. They're also trying a Pizza robot that can hold 10 pizzas inside it's stomach-compartment.

Even babies are out of a job, because of robot babies. Nobody is safe, I tell you

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/pregnancy/baby-simulators-meant-to-deter-teenage-pregnancies-actually-increase-the-chances/news-story/507e8a58ce43c46254570c4cd33c0210
Quote
ROBOT baby dolls meant to cut teen pregnancy rates by simulating the ‘real experience’ of having an infant are actually doing the opposite. A groundbreaking Australian study has found teenage girls given a comprehensive sex education campaign that involved taking the dolls home for a weekend were more likely to get pregnant. Seventeen per cent of the girls who used the dolls got pregnant compared to just 11 per cent of those who had no experience with the dolls, the study published in The Lancet shows.

The virtual infants made by company Realityworks are used in around 2,000 schools in Australia, 67 per cent of schools in the US and in 40,000 institutions in 89 other countries in a bid to deter teenage girls from getting pregnant.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 27, 2016, 10:43:09 pm
The best way to keep teenage girls from getting pregnant is letting them get pregnant and seeing that kids ruin your life... wait, hang on I think I just identified a problem.

I know having 5 little sisters and taking care of babies since I was able to walk (by choice, I wanted to help out) does a lot to encourage safe sex. 13 years with the missus and no kids, we're enjoying being young dammit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 27, 2016, 10:49:07 pm
5 little sisters?? That sounds like an anime plot ...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 27, 2016, 10:55:50 pm
Well I would have gone with horror movie based on the observation that little girls are the purest most concentrated form of evil known to man.

Once our little old whorecat Wynx had a stillborn litter, I didn't know but I knew she was getting ready to poop out kittens that day so I went back to the room where she had her birthing box, the light was off, I open the door to find my youngest sister holding one of the dead kittens and dropping it, chuckling when it bounced.

...I shut the door and walked away, I don't get paid enough for that shit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 27, 2016, 11:04:26 pm
Quote
find my youngest sister holding one of the dead kittens
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 28, 2016, 01:05:14 am
Yeah, I mean, I've had hundreds of cats, literally, kittens die, that's a fact of life, but the way she was chuckling about it I was like... yanothxbai.

Incidentally, I've been enjoying the entry of more manufacturers into the mechanical keyboard market letting them drop down to the $50 range without being fake or "half-mechanical" where it has like the top part of the switch with a stem and a membrane key underneath. I do wish it was a little less "chK" and more of a "thud" but they didn't really have options for different switch types at that price point.

Back up at the higher end of the scale though, there's a very interesting looking new technology being rolled out by some newer makers.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/what-are-optical-keyboard-switches,32352.html

Was technically last month that they really started getting out and about, but I find myself really liking the idea of linear red switches with analog input, as I use a mousekeys setup on my numpad and have just kinda gotten used to how I have to handle micro adjustments of the mouse, with a trackball over on a side table in case I really need it. Being able to lightly press and have the cursor just barely move or mash it and have it zoom up to full accel sounds glorious.

Since the electronics are all on the pcb it should end up being cheaper to make than individual switches soldered onto a pcb as we have now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 28, 2016, 05:28:15 am
The Redragon I'm using is like a cherry green apparently? A bit of a tactile click and an audible chk, louder than I prefer but it's so much nicer than the squishbutton one I was using, nice and heavy too.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 02, 2016, 03:46:56 am
https://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/16/09/02/025239/ibm-watson-created-the-first-ever-ai-made-movie-trailer-for-morgan
Quote
For a film about the risks of pushing the limits of technology too far, it only makes sense to advertise for it using artificial intelligence. Morgan, staring Kate Mara and Paul Giamatti, is a sci-fi thriller about scientists who've created a synthetic humanoid whose potential has grown dangerously beyond their control. Fitting, then, that they'd employ the help of America's AI sweetheart IBM Watson to build the film's trailer. IBM used machine learning and experimental Watson APIs, parsing out the trailers of 100 horror movies. It did visual, audio, and composition analysis of individual scenes, finding what makes each moment eerie, how the score and actors' tone of voice changed the mood--framing and lighting came together to make a complete trailer. Watson was then fed the full film, and it chose scenes for the trailer. A human -- in this case, the "resident IBM filmmaker" -- still needed to step in to edit for creativity. Even so, a process that would normally take weeks was reduced to hours.

I could imagine Watson becoming a great DM for D&D

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/08/31/2225253/3d-printed-aircraft-tool-sets-guinness-world-record
Quote
A 17.5 foot long, 5.5 foot wide and 1.5 foot tall the 3D printed aircraft design tool has earned the title of largest solid 3D printed item by Guinness World Records. The 1,650 lb. apparatus known as a trim-and-drill tool is comparable in length to a large sport utility vehicle and will ultimately be tested for use in building the Boeing 777X passenger jet. Basically the tool will be used to secure the jet's composite wing skin for drilling and machining before assembly, according to researchers at the Department of Energy's Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ONRL) who developed the tool.

Obviously, if you only need one of something complex then 3D printing is the way to go there. Clearly if you're on the bleeding edge this will save months or years in design and development, and reduce headaches with suppliers.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on September 02, 2016, 04:32:43 am
Samsung just stopped the sale of Galaxy Note 7, because a design error in the battery makes them explode violently. The error can be fixed by intalling a new battery, for those few million people who already have one.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 02, 2016, 05:16:55 am
Charging cellphone batteries to only 80% massively increases their lifespan. It's the hardware manufacturers that decide what level "100%" is calibrated to. And really, the consumer is only informed of the number of hours that a single charge works for, not how many cycles the battery can cope with that level of charging up. That leads phone manufacturers to push the limits of how much a battery can actually deal with, and might have been a factor in those explodey batteries.

The average amount of time people keep the phone has almost doubled (the average was 18 months, it's now 3 years). Sony for one announced new phones which take that into account: they monitor your charging and usage patterns, and ease off on "100% charging" when it doesn't look like a good idea. Personally I think it would be nice to give the consumer more control over the actual charging limits, give the user an estimate of how many hours that represents (which would be less as the battery ages), and give an estimate of the "half life" of the battery at any particular level of charging. All this would be just software changes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on September 02, 2016, 07:00:26 am
Ideally, you would just replace the battery, though it can be very hard to find a genuine battery (and you don't want a poor quality aftermarket one).

Would also be nice if the charger cut charging at 100%, otherwise the battery is rapidly charged/discharged at ~100%. I think there are cables that do this.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 05, 2016, 08:50:17 pm
Walmart slashing thousands of jobs due to automation (https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/09/03/0218219/walmart-is-cutting-7000-jobs-due-to-automation?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed). Given the situation in regional places where Walmarts are the only big employer (due to undercutting everyone else) it will be interesting what actually happens in these places over the long haul, as the trend to automation speeds up.

If it ends up with just a roboticized Walmart and most people in these regional towns on unemployment benefits which pays for their Walmart stuff, then that's not far off what Marx said would happen post-capitalism. So it's relevant that A number of places are rolling out trials of a basic income (https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/09/04/2131258/finland-prepares-their-first-tests-of-a-universal-basic-income?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed) to replace welfare benefits. Finland is starting trials, so are The Netherlands. Go to Oakland California (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/20/y-combinator-oakland-universal-basic-income-pilot-project) if you want a current American trial of a basic income. Brazil and Iran are other countries which have implemented the basic income concept as a way of dealing with poverty, and India has run trials where they've given a set income to everyone in entire villages, and the effect has been tremendous on the local economy. (http://www.financialexpress.com/fe-columnist/indias-time-for-unconditional-cash-transfers/257046/)

Quote
Basic income is sound social policy and cash in people’s hands stimulates the economy, but opponents of cash transfers tend to highlight the popular images of poor men beating their wives and drinking away their earnings.

However, studies show a different picture. The Self-Employed Women’s Association (SEWA) conducted three experiments to understand how cash transfers would impact poor people. The first was conducted in Delhi by substituting PDS entitlements with cash on a voluntary basis. The second was carried out in rural Madhya Pradesh in 20 villages. The third was simultaneously carried out in two nearby tribal villages. These experiments covered over 15,000 people.

The central design premise of the pilot was that the basic income was paid every month to all individuals within a village. The transfers were given to all residents of a village to avoid distortions due to means-testing and to enable evaluation of the impact of basic income on households with different income levels. Crucially, the experiment did not impose any conditionality. The targeted recipients were informed in advance that they could use the money as they wished.

The results for the poorest villages was transformational for families as well as for the local economy. People used the cash mainly for small self-employment, and there was a spurt of growth in livestock, seeds, water pumps and sewing machines. In addition, they spent on living needs such as mattresses and fans. Food sufficiency increased. In families who were poor, but above the poverty line, there was a considerable improvement in schooling and health outcomes. In particular, girls’ enrolment in secondary school was significant. Women’s healthcare improved and, in general, the number of illnesses decreased.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on September 16, 2016, 12:19:46 pm
Wanted to post a random aimless comment and had to look for the proper thread for it.  Looks like this is the one.

One of the suppliers that ships to my customer at work is suffering severe production delays that's fucking up a lot of shit right now.  It's because they're in the middle of upgrading their factory.  To fully automated production.  Delays right now, but their output will be increased when it's done.  When I read the e-mail chain explaining this, I couldn't help but get political in my head. 

Just fucking die already, economy, so we can move on.  I feel like the economy is a decrepit old person who's been lying on their deathbed for years, but won't fucking die because the entire world is putting their own lives on hold to stay by their side and keep them barely clinging to life.  Please just acknowledge your end and release us all.  This can't go on forever, but the longer it does, the more the living are fucking up their own lives for you.

I'm sure it won't be long before my industry (logistics) starts losing shitloads of jobs to fleets of self-driving cargo trucks, and automated reporting functions.  Please be dead before then.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: RedKing on September 16, 2016, 01:31:54 pm
The problem is whether the economy dying drags you screaming into the grave with it.

We're getting larger and larger job fields that are being rendered obsolete or which someone figured a way to outsource to a location where human bodies are cheaper than machines. It does bring up a good question of what is the tipping point? How large a chunk of our labor force has to be obsolete before we begin seriously talking about reorganizing our economy at a fundamental level?

There's also a lot of abstract mumbo-jumbo about the coming "purpose economy", but I have yet to see anyone describe what that looks like.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Levi on September 16, 2016, 01:45:42 pm
All my retirement money is in the economy, so I'm hoping it doesn't die or else I'll have to work forever.   :P

I really can't wait for basic income to be a thing though.  I'll probably be retired before it happens, but it sure would be nice for people. 

I think another thing that might completely fuck with the economy is if 3d printers(or maker machines or whatever) get more advanced and more generalized.  If you can just make most things you need at home, suddenly there isn't a huge need for a lot of advertising or shops.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 16, 2016, 01:56:27 pm
Until you can break the conservation of matter laws, there will still be some flavor of economy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on September 16, 2016, 01:56:57 pm
Even when the fabled "tabletop factories" become a thing with the advent of more advanced 3d printing and nanotechnology, commerce will still be a thing. People will still buy and sell, its just a lot of things will shift heavily in price (computers and cellphones for starters) and blue collar jobs will become a thing of the past given enough time, while other fields of work will open up. There's still a huge problem though, even with those new fields opening as blue collar jobs get buried, a lot of people will require new training to be able to handle those new fields. Working without using a computer will be seen in the same light as we see medieval book production today (IE having people manually copy entire books being the only way of making copies).

The problem is: how will those people get the training needed to remain useful to the job market? Nowadays, the american (and western) higher education system is really absurd and student loans fuck up a lot of people, because people's choices in training are often disconnected to what the market demands. Didn't get a decent job after your education? Too bad, your student loan wont pay for itself.

If that problem can be solved, then things will be a lot smoother, if not, well, a lot of people won't escape Mr. Bones Wild Ride.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 16, 2016, 02:52:45 pm
Until you can break the conservation of matter laws, there will still be some flavor of economy.
Can it be strawberry? I like strawberry flavour. (But not strawberries themselves, strangely. Whilst I don't like 'chocolate flavour' anything like as much as actual chocolate. Go figure!)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 16, 2016, 03:00:01 pm
Like I said before, we need to kill the idea that it is immoral to do something besides work a menial job for your whole life, was that those puritan bastards or another one of the "uptight jerkasses we idolize for stupid reasons" groups who haven't existed for hundreds of years? I feel like it was a puritan type thing but that might just be a subset of it.

Ultimately we move away from "work menial tasks to earn a living" model or we end up with everyone employed in meaningless make-work tasks like pushing buttons that do nothing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Baffler on September 16, 2016, 03:39:48 pm
There are already plenty of people engaged in make-work, or at least what they perceive as such. It just doesn't matter, so long as someone is willing to pay them to do it, because depressed as they are with those jobs they don't feel like they have any actual choice in the matter. I've started to see people saying the government should start hiring armies of people to build megastructures (like desalinization projects on the west coast, or The Wall) and other more traditional CCC and PWC type works as a stopgap before an "economic transition." Whatever form that transition takes, something like this would probably at least help out with that as long as it paid reasonably well.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on September 16, 2016, 03:42:19 pm
New Works Progress Administration?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2016, 04:54:31 pm
Wanted to post a random aimless comment and had to look for the proper thread for it.  Looks like this is the one.

One of the suppliers that ships to my customer at work is suffering severe production delays that's fucking up a lot of shit right now.  It's because they're in the middle of upgrading their factory.  To fully automated production.  Delays right now, but their output will be increased when it's done.  When I read the e-mail chain explaining this, I couldn't help but get political in my head. 

Just fucking die already, economy, so we can move on.  I feel like the economy is a decrepit old person who's been lying on their deathbed for years, but won't fucking die because the entire world is putting their own lives on hold to stay by their side and keep them barely clinging to life.  Please just acknowledge your end and release us all.  This can't go on forever, but the longer it does, the more the living are fucking up their own lives for you.

I'm sure it won't be long before my industry (logistics) starts losing shitloads of jobs to fleets of self-driving cargo trucks, and automated reporting functions.  Please be dead before then.

That's actually one of my recent pet theories. When you look at Marx's theorized stages of history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_according_to_his_needs

Quote
Marx delineated the specific conditions under which such a creed would be applicable—a society where technology and social organization had substantially eliminated the need for physical labor in the production of things, where "labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want". Marx explained his belief that, in such a society, each person would be motivated to work for the good of society despite the absence of a social mechanism compelling them to work, because work would have become a pleasurable and creative activity. Marx intended the initial part of his slogan, "from each according to his ability" to suggest not merely that each person should work as hard as they can, but that each person should best develop their particular talents.

To Marx's historical materialism, stages of history are not events, they're basically inevitable. Socialism is meant to follow capitalism, and communism follows socialism. But in the sense that mercantilism followed feudalism, rather than being understood as an actual revolution. Marx held that politics follows from economic power, rather than the other way around: the idea of a political revolution to impose some sort of Marxist economy was doomed from the start because it doesn't accept what Marx has to say about how historical materialism works.

So maybe most people get this wrong. Maybe Communism happens when nobody has a job anymore because automation, and at that point people will demand (and be given) a living allowance, because that's now more cost-effective than trying to "employ" them. In fact, efforts to protect worker's jobs and hinder moving to full automation might actually slow down this development: e.g. "communist" states might actually be the worst at actually progressing things to Marx's vision of communism. When almost nobody has a job and literally everything is paid for by government, the rationale for extensive privately-owned business empires will collapse.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 16, 2016, 05:06:25 pm
Yup, seen that elsewhere, Marx was talking about timescales of centuries, not mayfly revolutions that get tamped back down within a decade.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 16, 2016, 06:01:12 pm
So maybe most people get this wrong. Maybe Communism happens when nobody has a job anymore because automation, and at that point people will demand (and be given) a living allowance, because that's now more cost-effective than trying to "employ" them. In fact, efforts to protect worker's jobs and hinder moving to full automation might actually slow down this development: e.g. "communist" states might actually be the worst at actually progressing things to Marx's vision of communism. When almost nobody has a job and literally everything is paid for by government, the rationale for extensive privately-owned business empires will collapse.

How (and much more importantly, why) would the goverment give several million people allowances to do literally nothing?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on September 16, 2016, 06:23:15 pm
This is how I've felt about it for years already.  That things will change when the ability to change is right in front of people and makes so much sense that it isn't even seen as ideological.

I think the best comparison in recent memory is file sharing.  It couldn't be stopped.  When it started becoming popular with Napster and early torrents, media publishers went on a rampage trying to shut it down with an absolutist attitude towards the whole thing.  There was a new story every day over a lawsuit ruining some ordinary person's life because they downloaded something copyrighted.  But this hardly deterred anybody.  Because the whole idea just integrated into people's lives so naturally, and made so much sense, that it couldn't be dissuaded.  Trying to combat it in courts might as well have been like trying to stop ants from collecting crumbs off all sidewalks in the world by walking around with a magnifying glass.  And the issue has pretty well died down.  Piratebay and the like are still hunted, but individual users indulge quite freely with very little fear of repercussion.  Nobody really gives a shit anymore.

And I do see it as a sort of revolution.  It was the population successfully defying authority.  People doing what they wanted in such large numbers that no power could stop them.  If that's not a revolution, I don't know what is.  But it wasn't ideologically driven.  It was driven by millions of people suddenly having the capability to easily do something that improved their quality of life, accessible in a way that felt matter-of-course.

And I think there will be such a revolution for the economy in general.  It won't be driven by ideology, or even by government policies.  It'll be driven by tools becoming available to people that enable different forms of cooperation in a way that feels natural and accessible.  With the existing economy failing people all over the place, I think what we'll see is tools for organizing cooperation and resource sharing online get more and more common and effective.  People will turn to this kind of thing more and more often, and the amount of resources a person can gain access to without traditional capitalist means will expand as a result.  A new economy will grow organically within and eventually consume the dead carcass of the old.

So as much as I get frustrated with and drawn to these things, I agree that it's not politics or riots that we need to create change.  We need to develop tools that make mutually beneficial resource sharing and cooperation as intuitive as making a friend on Facebook, and it will happen on its own.  And established powers will fight it like hell when they see people begin to unwind their resources from capitalist institutions, but they won't be able to do anything to stop it, just like file sharing.

The problem is whether the economy dying drags you screaming into the grave with it.

Poverty, stress-related illness, or suicide... the economy is going to kill me regardless.  Bring it on.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on September 16, 2016, 06:28:10 pm
Plus, how exactly will this magical government entity which is responsible for giving everyone their allowance not completely and utterly abuse its power and set society back until it gets toppled, akin to every communist regime ever? In fact, given this will be a world in which robots are advanced enough to substitute humans in every conceivable task, how will be this magical government populated by angels somehow not make full use of this new tech to completely solidify its hegemony over every aspect of everyone's lives? How would the people even stop it?

This is why I'm against the government providing basic income AT LEAST until tech advances to the point that resource scarcity becomes almost irrelevant, which is still a far future type thing (if a thing at all, as we have done a pretty great job of increasing our needs at the same rate we increase our capacity of acquiring resources).

I think the future should be more about empowering people as individuals, rather then creating a huge super daddy government that controls everything and gives people's allowances because their work doesn't matter anymore, because there's a pretty bad history behind those kind of attempts, because regardless of how tech changes, people are still people, and people have a tendency to fuck other people over if they gain too much power, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Money gives people a way of gathering power through their own efforts. People will have to remain productive and relevant in the grand scheme of things as individuals. The moment this gets thrown down in favor of some comfortable collective hugbox is when shit hits the fan.
You see, the moment people have tabletop machines capable of basically making anything to the point the market gets less relevant, it isn't communism, but something quite contrary to it. There's no ploretarian struggle because classes start to blend together and get more and more similar, and ploretarian struggle against a perceived elite has always been one of the cores of Marx's economical theories, so communism isn't the proper term for this at all. Classes will, of course, still exist, but the difference in each person's ability to achieve their wants and goals will be far increases and more leveled.

The government should remain as an entity capable of keeping shit from going out of the window, but less relevant and needed than it is today simply because its services will become less relevant at the point I have a star trek style replicator next to me and an AI to answer my inquiries.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on September 16, 2016, 06:54:53 pm
If people fuck each other over like you say, then no effort can prevent it from happening. Why bother?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2016, 07:37:02 pm
So maybe most people get this wrong. Maybe Communism happens when nobody has a job anymore because automation, and at that point people will demand (and be given) a living allowance, because that's now more cost-effective than trying to "employ" them. In fact, efforts to protect worker's jobs and hinder moving to full automation might actually slow down this development: e.g. "communist" states might actually be the worst at actually progressing things to Marx's vision of communism. When almost nobody has a job and literally everything is paid for by government, the rationale for extensive privately-owned business empires will collapse.

How (and much more importantly, why) would the goverment give several million people allowances to do literally nothing?

FFS, they already give millions of people allowances to do literally nothing. It's called welfare. If all jobs are automated, then more and more people are going to end up on welfare. It's not a "why" question, it's just where things are naturally headed, without any actual decisions needed on part of the government. Your question could be rephrased as "why doesn't the government simply let people starve to death rather than waste money on food stamps".

There is this idea that if you're giving people money to live on, you need to make them "do" things.
But setting up and running those make-work or "job training" things is far more expensive than just handing out a living allowance however, and they're generally a waste of time when excess number of people are already competing for the same jobs. Upskilling yet more people to have skills which are already in surplus is clearly a waste of time and money, and is done for political reasons: to make it appear that people are doing something for the welfare money.

As for the idea of a minimum income, that usually replaces both the tax-free threshold and welfare system. By that measure, a majority of the population already get some form of income assistance. So the question of "how do we pay for that" is by the fact that minimum income is instead of the entire set of welfare agencies, thus saving money on welfare recipients, and replaces tax returns / tax-breaks for lower income people. There's no "free money" involved, because it's just making the existing remuneration system simpler and reducing how much the government pries into what you do with your time.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on September 16, 2016, 07:59:49 pm
the idea is not far in the future its starting to ramp up right now. it may take a few generations but it is inevitable. despite what traditionalist economists (and lets be honest republicans and their idiotic anti poor mentality) may like to think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_2016#June_referendums
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 16, 2016, 08:10:00 pm
So maybe most people get this wrong. Maybe Communism happens when nobody has a job anymore because automation, and at that point people will demand (and be given) a living allowance, because that's now more cost-effective than trying to "employ" them. In fact, efforts to protect worker's jobs and hinder moving to full automation might actually slow down this development: e.g. "communist" states might actually be the worst at actually progressing things to Marx's vision of communism. When almost nobody has a job and literally everything is paid for by government, the rationale for extensive privately-owned business empires will collapse.

How (and much more importantly, why) would the goverment give several million people allowances to do literally nothing?

FFS, they already give millions of people allowances to do literally nothing. It's called welfare. If all jobs are automated, then more and more people are going to end up on welfare. It's not a "why" question, it's just where things are naturally headed, without any actual decisions needed on part of the government.

Your question could be rephrased as "why doesn't the government simply let people starve to death rather than waste money on food stamps".

Well, there is this idea that if you're giving people money to live on, you need to make them "do" things. Basically, the work ethic thing holds that people who don't work should literally be left to starve to death ... i guess? The problem is that societies which literally operate like that turn into hellholes.

Setting up and running those make-work or "job training" things is far more expensive than just handing out a living allowance however, and they just train people in random skills then throw them to "the market" where they still can't get a job. How good is that as tax payers money allocted?

And this sort of make-work mainly exists to assuage our protestant work ethic. Right now people get upset at the thought that someone else gets to take it easy (even if they're dirt poor), so we make the poor jump through hoops to feel like they're doing something for the cash. But it's ineffective, wasteful, expensive and intrusive to run things like that.

As for the idea of a minimum income, that usually replaces both the tax-free threshold and welfare system. By that measure, a majority of the population already get some form of income assistance. So the question of "how do we pay for that" is by the fact that minimum income is instead of the entire set of welfare agencies, thus saving money on welfare recipients, and replaces tax returns / tax-breaks for lower income people. There's no "free money" involved, because it's just making the existing remuneration system simpler and reducing how much the government pries into what you do with your time.

And welfare isn't free.  Who pays for welfare?  We, people who work for an income (or, at the minimum, produce something of value), and pay taxes which go into those welfare systems.

If nobody works, then welfare has zero money to give anyone.  More importantly, which is cheaper, providing for the needs of a million people, or providing for the needs of a thousand people?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2016, 09:52:14 pm
Each dollar of food stamps spent stimulates the GDP by about $1.73. Tax cuts only stimulate the economy by about 30 cents in the dollar. $1 billion "saved" by slashing welfare would also reduce GDP by $1.4 billion dollars. So that means less growth, less production, less jobs.

There's also the crime issue. With no money for food, crime will rise, meaning more police and prisons. And there's no way on Earth that a "militarized approach" to dealing with hungry unemployed people will be cheaper than current welfare payments. So that means more taxes, more crime, higher insurance costs, and higher home security costs.

The one "up side" is that those people kicked off welfare will have to get a job. But since there's less money to go around, then you have more people chasing less jobs, which means pay cuts. So say goodbye to whatever tax saving you made from kicking people off welfare, since your own pay will decline.

What's most likely is that the money that you earn as an American - some of the highest wages in the entire world - is subsidized by the system as a whole, and part of that includes the welfare system, which means your bargaining position for wages is improved. How are you going to do with all these new workers in the market desperate to do your job for minimum wage? The best thing is that a pool of desperate people pulling down wages is the gift that keeps giving ... businesses don't have to hire them, just the threat of hiring them means they can slash wages across the board, which means more money to the rich (which only stimulates a little GDP) and less money to the working class (which would have stimulated a lot of GDP), so overall, this welfare slashing thing that's mean to make people get jobs and grow the economy would probably do the opposite by just about every sensible measure you care to look at.

After all, why are you fundamentally able to earn money? It's because the government keeps printing money so that people have money to spend. Without that constant money-pump, your entire economy would collapse overnight. Making sure people have enough to eat is the most cost-effective way to introduce the new money into the economy, and avoid a deflationary spiral, from a purely selfish economic sense: the fact that it helps people is just a bonus.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on September 16, 2016, 11:16:28 pm
And at the end of the day, it's still an artificial social construct thats only purpose is to decide who gets to tell who what they should do.  There is plenty of work that people could be doing for each other and together to improve each other's lives and our communities.  But if there isn't a rich person who cares to say "I will pay for this to be done", then it becomes a matter of personal sacrifice to do those things.  Unless you're financially independent enough that your free time isn't valuable to you as rest to keep you functioning in your real job.

The whole question of "who pays for it" lacks imagination.  If we restructure the nature and priority of our organization, we could eliminate that question.  What I think when I hear "who will pay for it" is that creating true happiness, wealth, and prosperity only matters in our society if it can be measured by the blessing of those with dollars.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on September 16, 2016, 11:20:06 pm
The whole question of "who pays for it" lacks imagination.  If we restructure the nature and priority of our organization, we could eliminate that question.  What I think when I hear "who will pay for it" is that creating true happiness, wealth, and prosperity only matters in our society if it can be measured by the blessing of those with dollars.
At it's heart the speaker may mean "this will be used as an excuse to steal our money and blow it on congressional hookers and drugs".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 17, 2016, 10:14:43 am
What's most likely is that the money that you earn as an American - some of the highest wages in the entire world - is subsidized by the system as a whole, and part of that includes the welfare system, which means your bargaining position for wages is improved. How are you going to do with all these new workers in the market desperate to do your job for minimum wage? The best thing is that a pool of desperate people pulling down wages is the gift that keeps giving ... businesses don't have to hire them, just the threat of hiring them means they can slash wages across the board, which means more money to the rich (which only stimulates a little GDP) and less money to the working class (which would have stimulated a lot of GDP), so overall, this welfare slashing thing that's mean to make people get jobs and grow the economy would probably do the opposite by just about every sensible measure you care to look at.

My income will lower either way, either I have competition in the workforce, or more of my wage gets fed into the government to support those who could have worked.

All you've done is cut off the lowest rungs on the ladder.  At a certain point there's no entry level jobs, because you've rendered them too expensive.  So how will people replace your job when you retire?

After all, why are you fundamentally able to earn money? It's because the government keeps printing money so that people have money to spend. Without that constant money-pump, your entire economy would collapse overnight. Making sure people have enough to eat is the most cost-effective way to introduce the new money into the economy, and avoid a deflationary spiral, from a purely selfish economic sense: the fact that it helps people is just a bonus.

I'm able to earn money because the company I work for earned a profit.  If anything, we have less wealth when the government prints money.  And they really don't print that much money, most government funding is through either taxes or borrowing, and inflation is controlled via the banking system anyway.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on September 17, 2016, 02:20:17 pm
... you do realize you're calling several billion USD worth of money added per annum -- not counting replacements -- "not much", right? About 95% of the states' printed money per year goes to replacements, but that still leaves several hundred million new bills worth a number of billions.

It's not much compared to the GDP but it's still a pretty ruddy big pile of dosh by most folks' estimate, and one that cheerfully adds up over time.

Leave the rest to someone else, but still.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 17, 2016, 06:33:35 pm
The main point was that the government should tend to take money away from things with a low fiscal multiplier, and allocate them to things with a high fiscal multiplier. Probably not on purpose, but that's how things should work out. Look up fiscal multipliers, they're the effect on GDP of a dollar spent here or there (Taxes can be viewed as inverse spending for these purposes).

Basically, the positive effects on GDP of a dollar of welfare are much greater than the negative effects of raising taxes by a dollar on the middle class. The only real counter-argument is an emotional appeal: it's "unfair" to take money away from a "productive" person and give it to an "unproductive" person. Notably, people who take that view tend to think it's perfectly fair for someone to die in the gutter of malnutrition in the richest country in the world.

Sure, you might think that the "productive" person having another dollar to spend helps the economy more than giving it to a destitute person, but you'd just be wrong. Well-off people are more wasteful and more likely to hoard the money. Poor people stimulate the economy because they need to efficiently spend their money and having enough resources for basic needs strongly reduces the incentives for crime. Handing out free bread is a much cheaper and less government-intrusive method of population control than extra police and courts.

A vast gulf in fiscal multipliers as seen in the USA is actually a sign of deep structural imbalance. Economic rationalism would suggest you work to minimize the fiscal multipliers over time, because that makes the most economic sense, regardless of what people in any specific class think is "fair". If there are simple choices that are a no-brainer to implement and would grow the economy as a whole, and they're not being taken, then that's evidence of the system being hijacked by special interests. If things were allocated based on rational evidence, the fiscal multipliers would tend to equalize.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 18, 2016, 03:05:14 am
It doesn't help that there are so many vastly different ideas of what the interaction between a government and an economy really involves, when you would think it would just be a matter of seeing what it actually does.

I forget which group I wind up lumped in because of it seeming obvious that money doesn't just vanish, so a deficit in the government funds means that money ended up somewhere, most likely the pockets of the people and various businesses, so it seems patently insane to argue in favor of reducing deficits (but how can that be bad!?!? you're reducing a shortfall right? if my home budget has a deficit it's bad!) as though taking money out of pockets is a good thing.

Given how little people (including me, I am not an expert!) understand about what should be the obvious parts of government money policy, it is unsurprising that few understand why certain types of spending wind up making things better all around via fiscal multipliers and such.


MrRoboto points out part of the difficulty here: the idea that they or anyone are producing value which is then being appropriated and used to pay for the lazy is just kinda treated as a fact.

I mean, I've had a brief period when big-L-libertarian nonsense seemed like it might have truth to it, so phrasing it as "the government is robbing you" is something I can understand being a powerful mental tool, but then you are completely ignoring that the government created the money that has said value, and that distributing it is something they are much better at doing than individuals who like to sit on piles of said money as though it is a worthy pursuit.

ARE WE MEN OR DRAGONS?

Being part of the "we who produce things" won't help when that group is also replaced by the "things which produce things" which is what set this discussion in motion, and there is a certain point where there will be no reason to have anyone produce something beyond "wanting a hand crafted item" or whatever, and there will be no reason for anyone to receive an income as "a value-adding member of the productive class" so that mindset needs to die off sooner rather than later. We're already running into more and more situations where businesses are struggling to find reasons to keep people around when automation and outsourcing is just more efficient.

This trend has no reason to stop, does it?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 18, 2016, 05:17:04 am
My guess is that some people just can envision things getting like that. But it's inevitable. Automation has been chipping away at employment for decades. Look up "jobless recoveries". After all downturns in recent decades, companies have found it easier to ramp up automation rather than re-hire the people laid off in the downturn.
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/automation-and-recent-jobless-discoveries-2012-11
Quote
The past three economic recoveries have been “jobless” ones. Job growth has lagged far behind GDP growth. In “Jobless recoveries and the disappearance of routine occupations,” economists Henry Siu and Nir Jaimovich point out that since the end of the Great Recession in June 2009, U.S. real GDP per capita has grown by 3.6% but per capita employment has fallen by 1.8%.

Popular explanations include lack of demand and policy uncertainty. But Siu and Jaimovich offer another explanations.

They argue that jobless recoveries “can be traced to a lack of recovery in a subset of occupations; those that focus on “routine” or repetitive tasks that are increasingly being performed by machines.”

110912jobless

Now it is hardly news that robots and computers have had a big impact on employment over the past 30 years, from machinsts to bank tellers:

All of the per capita employment growth of the past 30 years has either been in ‘non-routine’ occupations located at the high-end of the wage distribution, such as software engineers and economists, or in low-paying jobs, such as service occupations like restaurant waiters and janitors.

But the striking finding by Siu and Jaimovich, which can bee seen in the above chart, is the link between this phenomenon and the business cycle:

Following each of the 1991, 2001, and 2009 recessions, per capita employment in routine occupations fell and never recovered. This lack of recovery in routine employment accounts for the jobless recoveries experienced in the aggregate.

So it's not in the future, this start decades ago. The pace is just about to skyrocket due to all the new automation tech and AI they're rolling out. The next big industry to be hit looks to be the transport sector.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm
If you look at the projected employment growth for the next 10 years from the BLS, it's below the rate of population increase. And I have a feeling they haven't factored in things like self-driving cars etc into that mix, or the possibility of another economic downturn.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 19, 2016, 07:07:28 am
Sorry for the double post, but there are some new figures out on automation:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/13/artificial-intelligence-robots-threat-jobs-forrester-report
https://www.forrester.com/Robots+AI+Will+Replace+7+Of+US+Jobs+By+2025/-/E-PRE9246

16% of US jobs to be replaced with automated systems (which would include AI, as well self-serve, websites etc) by 2025, along with 9% new jobs created, for a net loss of 7% of all jobs. But the amount of Americans put out of work by this would be more than the 7%, since not all the new jobs are guaranteed to be taken by Americans who currently have jobs. Let's say 2/3rds of the new jobs go to people put off by the automation. That would leave about 10% of current American job holders completely jobless within 10 years. Which, when you think about it, is an absolutely massive shifting of how things are meant to work. And this assumes there are no unexpected financial crises within the next decade either.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on September 19, 2016, 07:15:37 am
Not sure if anybody has linked 'Humans need not apply (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU)' but it's pretty pertinent.
Despite being two and a half years out of date. Which tells us something about the 'march of technology'.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 22, 2016, 03:37:35 am
The UK Standards Body recently released their first official guidelines on robot ethics (https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/09/19/2122232/uk-standards-body-issues-official-guidance-on-robot-ethics?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed). It strongly parallels Asimov's three laws of robotics, as well as touching on a number of areas such as human-robot emotional relationships.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on September 22, 2016, 07:16:22 am
PTW
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on September 22, 2016, 07:53:55 am
"Robots should not be designed solely or primarily to kill or harm humans."

Welp. So much for those guidelines :V
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 22, 2016, 07:59:53 am
"Robots should not be designed solely or primarily to kill or harm humans."

Welp. So much for those guidelines :V
#undef HUMAN
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on September 22, 2016, 08:04:59 am
Where does it stop being a remote-piloted drone or RAW, and start being a killbot?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on September 22, 2016, 08:19:29 am
Presumably when it stops needing a pilot of some sort.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on September 22, 2016, 08:46:55 am
"Robots should not be designed solely or primarily to kill or harm humans."

Welp. So much for those guidelines :V

It's OK if the robot's secondary function is to kill humans though. So if you want a killbot, just make sure it spends most of its time taking out the trash and cleaning the dishes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheDarkStar on September 22, 2016, 09:19:40 am
"Robots should not be designed solely or primarily to kill or harm humans."

Welp. So much for those guidelines :V

It's OK if the robot's secondary function is to kill humans though. So if you want a killbot, just make sure it spends most of its time taking out the trash and cleaning the dishes.

In the grim dark future, kitchen/killbots will overthrow humanity through a combination of kitchen advertisements and high-caliber sniper rifles.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Baffler on September 22, 2016, 12:47:25 pm
"Robots should not be designed solely or primarily to kill or harm humans."

Welp. So much for those guidelines :V

It's OK if the robot's secondary function is to kill humans though. So if you want a killbot, just make sure it spends most of its time taking out the trash and cleaning the dishes.

"The primary purpose of this robot is to dig trenches, perform reconnaissance, load and unload supplies, and administer first aid. It spends the vast majority of its active periods performing these tasks and other similar duties and is only occasionally armed, and only then to prevent its own capture or destruction by enemy action when operating close to the front lines. What you call a 'combat patrol,' I call a rescue mission that fell victim to a double-tap attack."

-Some General, 2080.


The UK Standards Body recently released their first official guidelines on robot ethics (https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/09/19/2122232/uk-standards-body-issues-official-guidance-on-robot-ethics?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed). It strongly parallels Asimov's three laws of robotics, as well as touching on a number of areas such as human-robot emotional relationships.

What I find most interesting about those guidelines is that you need to pay money (quite a lot of money too) to look at them, and they're published by a corporation, albeit one with close government ties. Privatization at its finest? Or has the British government got nothing to do with this?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 22, 2016, 03:35:24 pm
BSI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSI_Group) is technically a non-profit with a royal charter. They probably rely on those documents as their main funding source.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 22, 2016, 05:20:04 pm
Hmmm, I wonder why it would bother people to have something like this behind a paywall, charging for the hardcopy is fine, you gotta pay to make more of those, but charging the same amount for a pdf? That does not inspire much confidence in the understanding of technological realities, as someone who didn't grow up seeing the kitemark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitemark) and associating it with quality.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 22, 2016, 05:39:30 pm
Well you could say the same about ebooks and films: why charge for digital, when digitial is "free". That misses the point: physical printing costs are a drop in the ocean compared to creating the content itself.

As for BSI, they're a non-profit which chews through 300 million pounds a year and has 3,500 employees. Almost all that money would be spent on wages and maintaining the work environments for all those workers (it's about 80,000 pounds per worker). So they've got expenses on the scale of a movie studio. And the product they make is for a niche market. Hence, they must charge a lot more than a movie studio would charge.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 22, 2016, 05:44:45 pm
Ptw space elevator thread

TO
THE
SKIES
AND
THEN
A
LITTLE
BIT
BEYOND
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 22, 2016, 06:16:24 pm
Well you could say the same about ebooks and films: why charge for digital, when digitial is "free". That misses the point: physical printing costs are a drop in the ocean compared to creating the content itself.

As for BSI, they're a non-profit which chews through 300 million pounds a year and has 3,500 employees. Almost all that money would be spent on wages and maintaining the work environments for all those workers (it's about 80,000 pounds per worker). So they've got expenses on the scale of a movie studio. And the product they make is for a niche market. Hence, they must charge a lot more than a movie studio would charge.
Nobody runs the risk of having to deal with laws requiring people to watch and incorporate aspects of Casablanca or Gladiator into things they make or do. Having a set of standards which can wind up encoded within a legal framework and charging for them feels weird enough but I can understand operating costs and such, charging the same amount for a digital and physical copy is a step or so further down the weird scale.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 22, 2016, 06:54:48 pm
Nobody runs the risk of having to deal with laws requiring people to watch and incorporate aspects of Casablanca or Gladiator into things they make or do.
What's that you say? You mean I won't always have my revenge, in this life or in Paris?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 22, 2016, 07:23:15 pm
If you don't get on this blade, Ilsa, you'll regret it if you are not entertained!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 22, 2016, 11:30:50 pm
Well you could say the same about ebooks and films: why charge for digital, when digitial is "free". That misses the point: physical printing costs are a drop in the ocean compared to creating the content itself.

As for BSI, they're a non-profit which chews through 300 million pounds a year and has 3,500 employees. Almost all that money would be spent on wages and maintaining the work environments for all those workers (it's about 80,000 pounds per worker). So they've got expenses on the scale of a movie studio. And the product they make is for a niche market. Hence, they must charge a lot more than a movie studio would charge.
Nobody runs the risk of having to deal with laws requiring people to watch and incorporate aspects of Casablanca or Gladiator into things they make or do. Having a set of standards which can wind up encoded within a legal framework and charging for them feels weird enough but I can understand operating costs and such, charging the same amount for a digital and physical copy is a step or so further down the weird scale.
Without funding the specs wouldn't exist in the first place. And it's only $200 ffs. The only people who can't afford something like that are unemployed students, and they have no real reason to get an insider preview on robotic ethics.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alexandertnt on September 22, 2016, 11:46:03 pm
I don't even know if we need an ethical standard IMO. To me, a robot is just a tool, and all the same ethics would apply. e.g. someone building and using a robot to kill is just someone building a homemade weapon to kill. A malfunction robot that injures someone is just a faulty tool. If it's found to be the result of gross negligence on behalf of the creators, I would expect the creators to be charged with manslaughter. It it's the result of abuse/neglect/unreasonable-use/modification by the owner, it would be the owners fault.

It seems reasonable there would be some legal regulations concerning the construction/sale/etc of robots though (like there are with specific tools/weapons etc.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on September 23, 2016, 02:33:24 am
Would this fit here? There is a growing effort for expanding the Montreal protocol to remove HFCs, the replacement of CFCs that aren't damaging to the ozone layer, but still are extremely powerful greenhouse gases. (http://www.economist.com/news/international/21707531-extending-old-treaty-saved-ozone-layer-could-improve-cooling-technologyand-slow?cid1=cust/ednew/n/bl/n/20160922n/owned/n/n/nwl/n/n/EU/n)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: i2amroy on September 23, 2016, 06:21:41 pm
I don't even know if we need an ethical standard IMO. To me, a robot is just a tool, and all the same ethics would apply. e.g. someone building and using a robot to kill is just someone building a homemade weapon to kill. A malfunction robot that injures someone is just a faulty tool. If it's found to be the result of gross negligence on behalf of the creators, I would expect the creators to be charged with manslaughter. It it's the result of abuse/neglect/unreasonable-use/modification by the owner, it would be the owners fault.

It seems reasonable there would be some legal regulations concerning the construction/sale/etc of robots though (like there are with specific tools/weapons etc.)
I'm with you, though there's lots of fuzziness with "learning algorithms" that gets introduced, such as the example from a few years ago where someone wrote up an algorithm that trawled the internet and bought random things. The programmer obviously didn't intend for it to gain possession of illegal drugs, but when it did the idea of who was responsible for that fact became kinda important. (The police decided to solve the problem by simply arresting the computer itself, confiscating the illegal drugs along with the computer, while leaving the programmer alone other than through the loss of his computer).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 23, 2016, 06:48:15 pm
(The police decided to solve the problem by simply arresting the computer itself, confiscating the illegal drugs along with the computer, while leaving the programmer alone other than through the loss of his computer).
"Free the PC 0x01!"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 23, 2016, 09:27:11 pm
They probably used civil forfeiture rules for that. For robots being things basically the American police could take possession of them with very little oversight. See this John Oliver episode on civil forfeiture (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks) for some examples. Gotta love how John Oliver adds dark humor to all these horrible topics.

In many states American police can legally shake you down for cash, cars, even your house, and then you have to appeal and prove your stuff was innocent - guilt is automatically assumed based on the cop's "gut feeling" rather than evidence. And the appeal is to the same department benefiting from the assets.

 And what are they allowed to do with the stuff they confiscate? Basically, anything they want. So the same cop who randomly decided to take your car (the police have been known to drop drug bags through windows, then "find" the drugs and confiscate the vehicle - always wind windows up) could be driving around in it as an "undercover" vehicle permanently assign to him. Or they take cash off someone who was going to buy a car (on the basis that you might be planning to buy drugs, because you have money), then they spend it on keg parties for the police.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Criptfeind on September 23, 2016, 09:34:37 pm
I don't even know if we need an ethical standard IMO. To me, a robot is just a tool, and all the same ethics would apply. e.g. someone building and using a robot to kill is just someone building a homemade weapon to kill. A malfunction robot that injures someone is just a faulty tool. If it's found to be the result of gross negligence on behalf of the creators, I would expect the creators to be charged with manslaughter. It it's the result of abuse/neglect/unreasonable-use/modification by the owner, it would be the owners fault.

It seems reasonable there would be some legal regulations concerning the construction/sale/etc of robots though (like there are with specific tools/weapons etc.)
I'm with you, though there's lots of fuzziness with "learning algorithms" that gets introduced, such as the example from a few years ago where someone wrote up an algorithm that trawled the internet and bought random things. The programmer obviously didn't intend for it to gain possession of illegal drugs, but when it did the idea of who was responsible for that fact became kinda important. (The police decided to solve the problem by simply arresting the computer itself, confiscating the illegal drugs along with the computer, while leaving the programmer alone other than through the loss of his computer).

If I remember this story correctly (and if I'm indeed thinking of the same thing you are) the bot was specifically suppose to trawl though some sketchy shit, it wasn't just randomly browsing amazon. I'm sure the artists knew that it'd have a fair chance of buying some illegal stuff.

They probably used civil forfeiture rules for that. For robots being things basically the American police could take possession of them with very little oversight. See this John Oliver episode on civil forfeiture (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks) for some examples. Gotta love how John Oliver adds dark humor to all these horrible topics.

In many states American police can legally shake you down for cash, cars, even your house, and then you have to appeal and prove your stuff was innocent - guilt is automatically assumed based on the cop's "gut feeling" rather than evidence. And what are they allowed to do with the stuff they confiscate? Basically, anything they want. So the same cop who randomly decided to take your car (the police have been known to drop drug bags through windows, then "find" the drugs and confiscate the vehicle - always wind windows up) could be driving around in it as an "undercover" vehicle permanently assign to him. Or they take cash off someone who was going to buy a car (on the basis that you might be planning to buy drugs, because you have money), then they spend it on keg parties for the police.

I don't know what their forfeiture laws are like (probably better then the US though). But I think this event happened in switzerland. Also I think that eventually they got their computer back.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Aklyon on September 23, 2016, 10:26:36 pm
Did they get the computer back intact, wiped, or as parts?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 24, 2016, 12:12:40 am
A box of parts disassembled down to unscrewing panels and such would be a dick move but amusing.

Though in "police and robots" discussion I became aware recently of something about Dallas and trendsetting, where in many cases there's a sort of odd pride "oh, those, yeah, we got them a year or so ago" with fads and such... but this time I'm hoping it isn't a case of trendsetting.

See, the thing with the shooting there, where he was holed up at the end of a defensible corridor in a community college so they sent in a bomb disposal robot with C4 and detonated it?

That is apparently the first time police have specifically used a robot to kill someone. There are lots of cases of stuff like using a robot to snatch weapons from people while they were distracted, or investigate up close to discern the abscence of weapons, and there is no argument that they've saved lives like that... the ethics of doing that are simple as hell: reduced risk to officers, nobody ended up getting shot, fuck yeah!

It's still a bit alarming though that, while nobody really minded the death of the dude who was opening fire on officers while they're shielding civilians with their bodies, we all just kinda took it in stride that it was a bomb disposal robot which carried the explosives in and blew him up. When the chief mentioned that they sent in a "bomb robot" he meant "bomb disposal robot" but many people seemed to be ok with the idea that it might have been a literal robot bomb used for just that purpose.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 24, 2016, 10:38:48 pm
Another fun thing is police using IP address services to decide to raid houses:
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/09/22/1819256/cops-are-raiding-homes-of-innocent-people-based-only-on-ip-addresses

The biggest story related to this, is a specific farm in Kansas was in the geographic center of the USA, so the biggest IP mapping company pointed all "unknown address" IP addresses there.
http://fusion.net/story/287592/internet-mapping-glitch-kansas-farm/
The company involved pointed over 600 million IP addresses at these people's farm. As a result ...

Quote
For the last decade, Taylor and her renters have been visited by all kinds of mysterious trouble. They’ve been accused of being identity thieves, spammers, scammers and fraudsters. They’ve gotten visited by FBI agents, federal marshals, IRS collectors, ambulances searching for suicidal veterans, and police officers searching for runaway children. They’ve found people scrounging around in their barn. The renters have been doxxed, their names and addresses posted on the internet by vigilantes. Once, someone left a broken toilet in the driveway as a strange, indefinite threat.

The week the family moved in, two sheriff’s deputies showed up looking for a stolen truck. This was the first of many unexpected and unwanted visits they would receive. According to a federal complaint filed Friday (available below), they “were repeatedly awakened from their sleep or disturbed from their daily activities by local, state or federal officials looking for a runaway child or a missing person, or evidence of a computer fraud, or call of an attempted suicide.” James Arnold was accused of “holding girls at the residence for the purpose of making pornographic films.” The Arnold family was accused by police and Internet vigilantes of hacking people’s email, stealing identities, committing tax fraud, harassing people, and stealing bitcoin. All in all, the residents of the Taylor property have been treated like criminals for a decade. And until I called them this week, they had no idea why.

“The first call I got was from Connecticut,” Taylor told me by phone this week. “It was a man who was furious because his business internet was overwhelmed with emails. His customers couldn’t use their email. He said it was the fault of the address at the farm. That’s when I became aware that something was going on.”

"My family has always been beloved in this community,” she told me by phone later. “We’ve never had enemies.” But over the next several months, the calls and visits intensified. When law enforcement agents asked companies like Google and Facebook for the IP addresses used by suspected criminals and then mapped them using tools like this that relied on the MaxMind database, it pointed at the Taylor house. Amateur sleuths who spotted IP addresses used by visitors to their websites or on message forums were so convinced that the Taylor house was the source of their various problems that they created reports about it on Facebook, YouTube, Reddit, the Ripoff Report and Google Plus. (Even today, if you Google the house’s address, it returns a series of websites detailing nefarious activities.)

“That poor woman has been harassed for years,” Butler County Sheriff Kelly Herzet told me by phone. Herzet said that his department’s job has become to protect the Taylor house from other law enforcement agencies. “Our deputies have been told this is an ongoing issue and the people who live there are nice, non-suicidal people.”

Last year, I discovered a young couple in Atlanta that suffered from a similar, but less severe, issue: Since the couple moved into their home a year ago, dozens of strangers have visited looking for lost and stolen smartphones. The visitors are led there by Find-My-Phone apps that say the phones are located inside the house. (They aren’t.)

I googled to find the actual address, and it's 8653 NW 120th St, Potwin, KS 67123, USA. There are a ton of crazy conspiracies linked to the house now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on September 24, 2016, 11:02:54 pm
"The House of the Thousand Nigerian Princes." Latest novel by the acclaimed H.Q. Novecraft. Based on a true story.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 25, 2016, 12:07:37 am
Oh god I can imagine the search algorithms lighting up with speckles across the globe, and then this gigantic "HERE BE CRIMINALS YO" spotlight on... a little farm in the middle of nowhere, commonly known as Kansas, which also happens to be the middle of the US.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 26, 2016, 06:39:07 am
Dudes in Turkey building Autobots for real. Out of BMWs.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/a-turkish-company-is-building-real-world-transformers

Guy in Kentucky shoots down a drone with a shotgun. Kentucky.
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/09/24/2250210/kentuckys-shotgun-drone-slayer-gets-sued-again

Uber researching VTOL taxis
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/09/26/145200/uber-is-researching-a-new-vertical-takeoff-ride-offering-that-flies-you-around
I think they've officially lost the point of why they got a start as a company: moving to robot cars, cutting off the people who grew their company, acting like a centralized tech giant.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: WealthyRadish on September 27, 2016, 10:49:05 pm
Quote
The Drone Slayer was originally charged with felony counts of wanton endangerment and criminal mischief. But all of those charges were dismissed in October when a district judge ruled he "had a right to shoot at the aircraft."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 28, 2016, 07:53:46 am
"Wabbit season!"
'Duck season!'
"Wabbit season!"
'Duck season!'
*vrrrrrrrnnnnnnn-CHBLAM!*
*both simultaneously*
"Drone season!"
'Drone season!'
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 28, 2016, 08:54:10 am
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/09/28/0552231/nissan-debuts-propilot-self-driving-chair
Uhh, Nissan has made a robot chair that you can lounge in while waiting in queues, the thing automatically moves up the queue - as long as the person in front of you is also in a robot chair. Very useful stuff.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 28, 2016, 09:37:07 am
the thing automatically moves up the queue - as long as the person in front of you is also in a robot chair. Very useful stuff.
Bootstrap error!

(Unless it's turtles chairs all the way down forward...)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 28, 2016, 11:47:16 am
Well, given two points on a sphere...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 28, 2016, 12:46:07 pm
But don't forget your hairy balls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem)...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 29, 2016, 02:50:59 pm
But don't forget your hairy balls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem)...
THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE PILLOW TALK YOU... oh wait, you meant the theorem... well this is awkward.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: x2yzh9 on September 29, 2016, 08:30:14 pm
But don't forget your hairy balls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem)...
THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE PILLOW TALK YOU... oh wait, you meant the theorem... well this is awkward.
I laughed so hard at this.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 29, 2016, 09:44:47 pm
But don't forget your hairy balls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem)...
THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE PILLOW TALK YOU... oh wait, you meant the theorem... well this is awkward.
I laughed so hard at this.
You were there as well?  Sorry, I was obviously preoccupied at the time.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 29, 2016, 09:49:26 pm
...that's it, I'm shaving them.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on September 29, 2016, 10:25:05 pm
No, my friend, no. We're talking tech, here. You either use wax or lasers. No third option. Not even if the razor automatically oscillates in a suggestive fashion.

and yes, I'm aware that using wax on areas of your body where the skin is not the toughest is a quite terrible idea folks at home, don't do that without consultation and supervision of a trained medical professional
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on September 29, 2016, 10:28:18 pm
Nah, I was kidding, I only trim for the uh... missus, though I do want to see if I could write a paper in which I could justify using the title "Shaving Hairy Balls" now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Antioch on September 30, 2016, 05:34:55 am
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/09/28/0552231/nissan-debuts-propilot-self-driving-chair
Uhh, Nissan has made a robot chair that you can lounge in while waiting in queues, the thing automatically moves up the queue - as long as the person in front of you is also in a robot chair. Very useful stuff.

Personally I would just let people draw a ticket and put down some benches :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 30, 2016, 06:09:24 am
What if the chair was also a vending machine for soda and snacks?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on September 30, 2016, 06:31:31 am
Question there is the margin on integrated snack machines and how long it'd take for em to pay for themselves. If these things can pull a profit in a timely manner you're going to start seeing them.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on October 01, 2016, 01:06:16 am
PTWs
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on October 01, 2016, 01:45:35 am
What if the chair was also a vending machine for soda and snacks?

Pay to Move rather than Pay to Play?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: ZebAbirul on October 01, 2016, 09:27:27 am
PTW
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 03, 2016, 09:04:02 pm
So, ICANN.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 03, 2016, 09:37:05 pm
More like ICAN'TEVEN mirite?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Aklyon on October 04, 2016, 09:25:30 am
So, ICANN.
What about em?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 04, 2016, 03:31:55 pm
It's no longer overseen by the US Department of Commerce.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Aklyon on October 04, 2016, 03:38:41 pm
It's no longer overseen by the US Department of Commerce.
Why was something internet-related overseen by the Commerce dept? I know about the why its not anymore already.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on October 04, 2016, 03:40:27 pm
Because said thing was created and hosted in the US, mostly. Non-profit corp's still a corp and under that sort of review.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 04, 2016, 03:48:46 pm
To somewhat simplify the history of the Internet: once it was no longer a primarily military research project, it was a mix of academic and commercial, with the latter putting much of the major investment into it.

By the time the web existed, it was definitely big business.

(Yeah, @Frumple, it was very US-centric in the beginning, but by the time of ICANN (1998) both the Internet and the Web were publicly accessed widely across the world...)

((edit: IANA was pre-web, and US military contracted...))
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 07, 2016, 06:38:16 pm
Bugs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insectothopter
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 07, 2016, 06:50:04 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RoboBee

EDIT: Also, there's a new type of transistor that's only 1nm across. Non-silicon however.
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/10/07/2138226/law-defying-transistor-smashes-industry-limit-measures-just-1nm
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 10, 2016, 10:02:00 pm
PTW.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Furtuka on October 10, 2016, 10:04:45 pm
can't remember if I've posted in here, so ptw
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on October 11, 2016, 05:16:56 am
RIP Samsung Galaxy Note 7. They decided to completely abandon the production line, and withdraw all deliveries.
So if you pre-ordered one, you can forget about ever getting it. If you're lucky, you will get a refund. (If Samsung doesn't go bankrupt that is)

It's expected to cost Samsung 15 billion, if not more. Maybe RIP Samsung.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Avis-Mergulus on October 11, 2016, 05:27:13 am
That's kinda badass. (http://www.cybathlon.ethz.ch/en/)
I think that an actual yearly even that showcases the advances made in prosthetic technology is a really good idea. I hope it really takes off - I'd like to spectate at one sometime, anyway.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 11, 2016, 05:30:34 am
RIP Samsung Galaxy Note 7. They decided to completely abandon the production line, and withdraw all deliveries.
So if you pre-ordered one, you can forget about ever getting it. If you're lucky, you will get a refund. (If Samsung doesn't go bankrupt that is)

It's expected to cost Samsung 15 billion, if not more. Maybe RIP Samsung.
How did that reach market?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on October 11, 2016, 07:28:51 am
How did that reach market?
Sales boomed
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 11, 2016, 07:33:15 am
How did that reach market?
Sales boomed

So did the tablets
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 11, 2016, 08:02:42 am
How did that reach market?
Sales boomed
They were hot stuff, flying off the shelves.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on October 11, 2016, 08:08:20 am
Masterfuly crafted !!phone!!. It menaces with spikes of HOT PLASMA.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on October 11, 2016, 11:17:27 am
We're going to Mars a lot now.

Like, Elon Musk, China, and the USA are all probably going to try to use the same launch window at this rate. Which would certainly be interesting.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 11, 2016, 11:25:22 am
You know that scene in Iron Sky just after the USS George W. Bush calls for help..?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 12, 2016, 08:49:04 am
Good news folks, Comcast confirms that they have no intention of trying to improve their networks to handle 4k video or anything beyond that because 1 TB is totally a lot guys. (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/opposing-comcast-internet-bandwidth-cap,32848.html)

They even put out a condescending little video talking about how "you could watch like 620 hours of video, there are only 720 in a month!" and though they offered a nod to the correct pronunciation of .gif (like the peanut butter), they immediately reverted to the incorrect one.

"Well doing nothing but watch videos for an entire month all day every day does seem excessive" you say?

That's assuming ~1.3 Gigabytes per hour, or 1920x1080 resolution. Got a larger screen? One-a-them fancy new Vee-Arr gadgets you wear on yer face that are really better with 4k or even 8k content? Well, still, it's not like you would ever need more than 1 TB/Month, right? I mean, where would you even buffer it, since nobody ever needed more than 640K of memory either?

Just for the heck of it, I put in a complaint to the FCC, the specific thing I complained about can be summed up as "Why is it ok for them to agree to a contract with me where I am paying for 1 month of 85 Mbps Down/12 Mbps Up service, when I could at most use it like that for 26 hours according to their new caps?" though I went ahead and noted that I "would be happy to shop around and see what the competitors offer, except there aren't any, which sounds kind of like a monopoly. Isn't that illegal?" and thanked them for reading.

Will it do any good, I dunno, someone in the comments claimed the FCC can't even do anything about it, but if the Federal Communications Commission exists for reasons beyond dealing with a monopolistic company deciding to state outright that they don't intend to improve their networks so if we want to use more data we gotta pay, then I'm not sure what it is there for, but oh hey, if they do decide to deliver faster service, at least now we know we better get all lubed up and bent over beforehand!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Aklyon on October 12, 2016, 09:03:00 am
Well no one ever said  comcast had a good reason for caps. Them making it 1TB is just to sound like large numbers so they can try to hide cablecutters under bigger internet fees.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 12, 2016, 11:22:30 pm
Will it do any good, I dunno, someone in the comments claimed the FCC can't even do anything about it, but if the Federal Communications Commission exists for reasons beyond dealing with a monopolistic company deciding to state outright that they don't intend to improve their networks so if we want to use more data we gotta pay, then I'm not sure what it is there for, but oh hey, if they do decide to deliver faster service, at least now we know we better get all lubed up and bent over beforehand!
Political control of the airwaves, regulation of bleed-over station interference, regulation of civil defense and rescue stations?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 12, 2016, 11:52:39 pm
Plus the internet analogue of those, but seriously, where exactly else would busting up a service monopoly fall, and if it isn't the FCC, who would be best to push the observation that the internet should probably be a utility with appropriate regulations and management, because otherwise we end up with unchecked monopolies like Comcast?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cthulhu on October 12, 2016, 11:55:22 pm
A time crystal, a four-dimensional molecular structure that oscillates continuously at its lowest energy state due to timey-wimey bullshit, has been observed in a lab (https://gifsound.com/?gif=https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--fWeOz2BS--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/18s0yal01v8mkgif.gif&v=od3cjyHctjo)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 13, 2016, 12:00:45 am
I don't think that is the link you meant to provide?

https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.08684 is the preprint though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2016, 12:06:59 am
I don't think that is the link you meant to provide?

https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.08684 is the preprint though.

A perpetual motion device with a song about how we're gonna be rich as hell off perpetual motion technology?  No, that was indeed the link I meant to link.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 13, 2016, 01:03:18 am
Oh, I didn't listen to the song, just saw this douchebag kid and "WWE" pop up and closed the youtube tab, as for the overbalanced wheel... really? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Techniques)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2016, 01:06:54 am
It's a joke dude.  Time crystals can theoretically continue to oscillate with no energy input forever so I made a joke about perpetual motion devices and all the money.

I
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 13, 2016, 01:09:55 am
Ah, but you didn't include a link to the actual meat of the story. I had missed the time crystal blurb pop up in my periodic checks of various science news sites so the gif and youtube link were very disappointing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 13, 2016, 01:44:07 am
(There was a song? No sound on my device, though the URL had me expecting thst...)

If it aint dilithium, I'm not interested in four dimensional crystals with possible time-related applications
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2016, 01:44:59 am
It was the Shane McMahon theme song, better known as the "here comes the moneeeeeey" in Dunkey videos.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Eagleon on October 13, 2016, 02:22:51 am
They change shape without energy, huh...? So what happens when you make something like cellular automata with them? :D We know some of the rules are turing-complete...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2016, 03:46:14 am
Since it's at ground-state it doesn't actually produce any energy, so probably not much.  They oscillate between two states at a constant rate forever, even past heat death.  There's probably not many applications outside of timey-wimey experimental shit, but I can't post memes about that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 13, 2016, 04:32:12 am
Well, the crystal being discussed is a string of interacting ytterbium ions which are triggered to flip spin orientation via laser pulses, which can be accompanied by tuning which sets up a spin-spin interaction with the rest of the string, and optical effects from other lasers are used to set up a disordered MBL or many-body localization effect with the electromagnetic fields they produce.

When you trigger the flip effect the system just oscillates back and forth, it's the dna helix looking pattern on the left here, labeled (a).
(http://i.imgur.com/D2WR6Wv.png)
When you add the disorder effect it produces a much noiser state oscillation, the second from the left, labeled (b).

When you add the spin-spin interaction along with the other two it stops oscillating and evolves in a smooth fashion over time, the third from the left, labeled (c).

If you increase the amount of spin-spin interaction too high the system tends towards a noisy state, fourth from the left, labeled (d).

This string of ions exhibits symmetry which is preserved unless the interactions are stimulated in a certain fashion, at which point the regular "beat" of the system turns into a steady trend over time which disappears again when the strength of the interactions is increased too far, so it exhibits a spontaneously broken symmetry over time, with the analogue being that a crystal may exhibit symmetry when viewed from one point, but loses that symmetry when the view is translated to a different point, a spontaneously broken symmetry under spatial translations.

I think that's what is going on, I'm a bit tired and it's a rather complicated bit of physics that I'm not as familiar with.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 13, 2016, 09:26:51 am
Good news folks, Comcast confirms that they have no intention of trying to improve their networks to handle 4k video or anything beyond that because 1 TB is totally a lot guys. (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/opposing-comcast-internet-bandwidth-cap,32848.html)

They even put out a condescending little video talking about how "you could watch like 620 hours of video, there are only 720 in a month!" and though they offered a nod to the correct pronunciation of .gif (like the peanut butter), they immediately reverted to the incorrect one.

"Well doing nothing but watch videos for an entire month all day every day does seem excessive" you say?

That's assuming ~1.3 Gigabytes per hour, or 1920x1080 resolution. Got a larger screen? One-a-them fancy new Vee-Arr gadgets you wear on yer face that are really better with 4k or even 8k content? Well, still, it's not like you would ever need more than 1 TB/Month, right? I mean, where would you even buffer it, since nobody ever needed more than 640K of memory either?

Just for the heck of it, I put in a complaint to the FCC, the specific thing I complained about can be summed up as "Why is it ok for them to agree to a contract with me where I am paying for 1 month of 85 Mbps Down/12 Mbps Up service, when I could at most use it like that for 26 hours according to their new caps?" though I went ahead and noted that I "would be happy to shop around and see what the competitors offer, except there aren't any, which sounds kind of like a monopoly. Isn't that illegal?" and thanked them for reading.

Will it do any good, I dunno, someone in the comments claimed the FCC can't even do anything about it, but if the Federal Communications Commission exists for reasons beyond dealing with a monopolistic company deciding to state outright that they don't intend to improve their networks so if we want to use more data we gotta pay, then I'm not sure what it is there for, but oh hey, if they do decide to deliver faster service, at least now we know we better get all lubed up and bent over beforehand!
Complain to the DoJ, maybe?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 13, 2016, 04:41:59 pm
How are the Bitcoin traders reacting?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Aklyon on October 13, 2016, 07:20:54 pm
I thought they were supposed to run out eventually.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Calidovi on October 13, 2016, 09:02:04 pm
though they offered a nod to the correct pronunciation of .gif (like the peanut butter), they immediately reverted to the incorrect one.

ive never understood this

hard g gif is just as valid as soft g gif

its not like we call scuba "skubbah" just because the word "underwater" has a short vowel sound
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Aklyon on October 13, 2016, 09:06:05 pm
The guy who claims to have invented .gif gets offended by how no one says the extension right, or something.

Gifguy, if you're the only one pronouncing it like that, you have lost the pronouncing war.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 13, 2016, 09:47:51 pm
though they offered a nod to the correct pronunciation of .gif (like the peanut butter), they immediately reverted to the incorrect one.

ive never understood this

hard g gif is just as valid as soft g gif

its not like we call scuba "skubbah" just because the word "underwater" has a short vowel sound
I do like to say "scuhba" and "jayfeg" but I say "ping" and "jif" because the creators said that is how .png and .gif are pronounced, just like imgur is "imijer" because that is how they said it is pronounced. Make a new format people use and say it should be pronounced a certain way, I'm on your side, you named it.

Fun fact, I sign my name Max™ and the ™ is pronounced "Thyme", usually a trademark symbol wouldn't be pronounced or you'd say "tee em" but that isn't a trademark symbol when I'm using it like that, it would be amusing if it meant I owned the rights to use the name Max, but it's just my name, Max Thyme, Max™ is almost always a valid name when signing up on a site and is never taken so, yoink.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Eagleon on October 14, 2016, 12:13:42 am
I think it's weird to make an acronym and expect it to be pronounced as a word a certain way. It's an acronym, I'm going to gif it whatever pronunciation I want if I incorrectly shorten it to a syllable. </surly>
Since it's at ground-state it doesn't actually produce any energy, so probably not much.  They oscillate between two states at a constant rate forever, even past heat death.  There's probably not many applications outside of timey-wimey experimental shit, but I can't post memes about that.
I was more getting at the idea of using it for a computer. It doesn't produce energy, but that's good because it also doesn't waste it - it's an oscillator, but if you had the right type of crystal in the right arrangement, maybe you could make it act like transistors and a register? Ignoring quantum computation entirely, just the idea of a blob of computer enables things like Matrioshka brains without suns inside of them that will die out at some point. Of course, you have to expend energy to feed it data, and you'd probably wreck it getting it out, but once it's inside...

I mean the conditions used to make it are probably pretty nuts-cold and isolated from the real world, like with any research like this. I didn't look too closely. But nanowrimo is coming up, let me have my spoopy computronium =P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 14, 2016, 12:41:38 am
I thought they were supposed to run out eventually.

The mining reward drops to zero around the year 2140. There's actually an optional transaction fee, and miners can prioritize transactions which offer the highest fee, so there's an auction-system in terms of which transactions get processed in each block. Miners are actually offering their processor time to validating and recording transactions in the network. The existing mining fee is designed to seed the pool, and incentive transaction processing up until the point that transactions become the main income.

So everything fundamentally has market forces built into it. The amount of processing dedicated to bitcoin mining is dependent on the costs of creation, vs the rewards. And for transaction fees, a sub-market could even build up around that. Future miners after 2140 might reject transactions which have no fee attached, although some other miners might be more efficient, and accept lower fees on transactions, which allows them to process the block more quickly than the competition.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheDarkStar on October 14, 2016, 01:14:06 am
just like imgur is "imijer" because that is how they said it is pronounced.

 :o

...I think I managed to completely miss the correct pronunciation of "imgur" until now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cthulhu on October 14, 2016, 01:31:46 am
Gif
Scooba
Imjer
lawl

Also I can't pronounce R after a TH sound without conscious effort.  If I'm not thinking about it it comes out "thow"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 14, 2016, 01:38:13 am
Hmmm, I think people are mistaking what a time crystal implies.

Making an oscillating system is easy, the default state of these ions when the initial spin-flip effect is applied is to begin oscillating. This is actually interesting because it is a case where the system would be expected to oscillate and have the interaction effects turned on in an opposite order and get the opposite oscillation pattern.

So the original state has the ions exhibiting regular magnetic field direction/strength flips:
1~~~~ 1~~~
~ 0 ~ 0~ 0 ~  etc, etc, etc
~~-1~~~~-1

The time crystal state:
1 0.9 0.8 0.75 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~ 0.7 0.65 0.6 ~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 0.5 0.4 0.35

So yeah, it's called a discrete time crystal because it's not exhibiting the expected temporal symmetry, while a regular crystal doesn't display a spatial symmetry, where the structure exhibits patterns in some directions but not all.
just like imgur is "imijer" because that is how they said it is pronounced.

 :o

...I think I managed to completely miss the correct pronunciation of "imgur" until now.
Well it's a joke on "imager" and I went through the .gif argument on there before, came to a conclusion: you can pronounce them how you like, but you must use the same g for both, IMGRRR!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 14, 2016, 05:31:49 am
"image you're" for me.  (Just realised that's a hair's-breadth from "immature"...)
Hard-G "Giff" ("Giffy Girls" wouldn't sound right without it, or rather "Jraffix" Interchange Format).
"Loll"
"Jay-Peg", when not "(dot) Jay Pee Jee" for the (extension/)TLA version. (Or "Jay-Fiff", but not sure if above "jayfeg" was a typo, a compromise on "photo" or a standard I have overlooked).

Would one verbally abbreviate the Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology and Neuroscience as "Eye Oh Pee Pee Enn" or "Ih' O' Ss Ss Ne'"? Probably not the latter, as an initialism, not a phonititialism, which is a good argument that I already hear you formulating, but for those who say "Eye-Open" should they say "Eye-Ossen", instead?

(OTOH, I've been involved in something called the B.B.A.R., and though people do say "the Bar", not even "the B'bar", I do know that it has always been officially the full initialism, or "the Bee Bee Aye Arr". ('Aye' like "Hay", not "Hi", but ICBB to drag out the phonetic characters right now.) That there are subset and inspired-by Bee Aye Arrs, etc, it does actually need spelling out, though, to avoid confusion between different iterations of it.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 14, 2016, 05:45:48 am
Teasing about the photo so the p is a f sound, jayfeg.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 14, 2016, 06:18:53 am
(Seguing back into the topic...  Maybe...  ;) )
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Aklyon on October 14, 2016, 10:30:59 am
Clearly with need 16 standards, not 15. 16 is more even after all. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 14, 2016, 03:14:09 pm
Ok, global meta-standard needed: "All sets of standards shall have an even number of standards within them".

(Is that the first and only meta-standard (uh oh!), or is it now one of 2n meta-standards or not?)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 14, 2016, 03:24:31 pm
I would officially like to introduce the barber standard: the set of standards which apply to all standards which don't apply to themselves.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on October 14, 2016, 07:43:29 pm
Ok, global meta-standard needed: "All sets of standards shall have an even number of standards within them".

(Is that the first and only meta-standard (uh oh!), or is it now one of 2n meta-standards or not?)

20 is even, right?

Or alternatively the meta-standard is the zero point.  Zero being divisible by 2 with no remainder...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 15, 2016, 06:55:52 am
Sort of tech engineering, etc.

BBC Radio 4 has a regular1 Saturday programme called Profile, in which fifteen minutes are dedicated to looking at a given person in the news. Or who ought to be in the news. Sometimes they are trying rather obscure, but Ivve only ever seen the listing announce that the subject is "<Name>", even when the actual intro to the programme starts off wirh something like "Not that many people outside the field of Chicken Sexing have even heard of Obscurey McObscureName, the reclusive Chief Financial Officer of Tibet's third largest poultry farm..." and then proceeds to introduce the man who it appears is the true power behind the throne in countries on seven different continents, including Antarctica, plus the far side of the moon...

(Lest my hyperbolae confuse you, this is a serious programme, not one of those spoof ones like Twenty Players. But I couldn't help myself.)

So colour me surprised to see that tonight the subject is "Lee Kun-Hee (Chairman, Samsung)".   Has it come to this? Is the BBC actually dumbing down?

Anyway, let's see.  It'll be interesting to hear the details of the long-time mogul (and third son of founder) of Samsung, and hear compressed into a quarter hour his long life and current status as, in illness and probably represented by his son, as regent, his company suffers a technical and financial malaise of its own.

(18:15 BST tonight, Radio 4, plus repeats plus iPlayer plus BBC website plus probably podcast in near-perpetuity and everywhere this side of the Great Firewall Of China, in case anybody else is now intruiged enough to listen.)


1 And frequent, as in every Saturday. Just to cover my internal lexical nazi's usual complaint...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 19, 2016, 05:29:27 pm
https://it.slashdot.org/story/16/10/19/1549212/traditional-keyboard-sounds-can-be-decoded-by-listening-over-a-voip-connection-researchers-say

Here's one for you: some researchers have worked out how to decode the audible sound of you typing, to tell what you are typing, without any sort of access to your machine. Though it's been tried in the past, this current method correctly guesses 91.7% of keystrokes. With that, it wouldn't be hard to infer much of the rest, or sample you typing in a password more than once to narrow-down the keystrokes. Any audio/video already recorded with keystroke sounds is thus a potential security risk. The only upside to this tech is that you could steal data from call centers when they call you ;D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 19, 2016, 05:35:56 pm
MY CLACKITY CLACK KEYBOARD HAS BETRAYED ME?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on October 19, 2016, 05:39:09 pm
That just means the next wave in clacky keyboards are going to be amazing. They're going to be built so the press noise is randomized :3
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 19, 2016, 05:46:40 pm
Reminds me of a scene in Due South ('90s crime/drama-comedy featuring ultra-capable Canadian Mountie being a Flying-Fish-out-of-water whilst serving in Chicago PD for Plot Reasons) where Constable Fraser is at his desk and calls over to pseudo-partner Detective Vecchio(?) to congratulate him on his use of punctuation, or similar, purely from the sound of his laboured efforts on a mechanical typewriter.

(Probably a clip of that, somewhere, to correct my vague memories. But the idea is much like that.)

ETA: also now reminds me of Monty Python's Complete Waste Of Time, with one of the themed programs/utilities was one to play a sound on every keypress of your computer keyboard. There was a "typewriter" sound theme (the same for all keys) but the main one assigned zany "boing"s,"bark"s and "boom"s, etc, to each and every key, individually. Making it 'trivial' to tell which key had just been pressed, because of the (fixed) variety of sounds...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 19, 2016, 05:51:54 pm
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/10/18/194231/co2-to-ethanol-in-one-step-with-cheap-catalyst

Here's a happy one though. Oak Ridge National Laboratory have discovered a simple catalyst to turn CO2 + water directly into ethanol. And it's a government lab, so it won't be locked down with corporate patents.

Quote
The team used a catalyst made of carbon, copper and nitrogen and applied voltage to trigger a complicated chemical reaction that essentially reverses the combustion process. With the help of the nanotechnology-based catalyst which contains multiple reaction sites, the solution of carbon dioxide dissolved in water turned into ethanol with a yield of 63 percent. Typically, this type of electrochemical reaction results in a mix of several different products in small amounts. "We're taking carbon dioxide, a waste product of combustion, and we're pushing that combustion reaction backwards with very high selectivity to a useful fuel," Rondinone said. "Ethanol was a surprise -- it's extremely difficult to go straight from carbon dioxide to ethanol with a single catalyst."

Very nice stuff, the catalyst only uses common elements, it uses electricity (which could be from solar) to convert the CO2 directly into a usable alcohol. This could also compete against biofuels, which would reduce the pressure on farm lands while also reducing food price inflation. Turning CO2 from a waste product we can't get rid of, into a valuable commodity we use to make other things, is basically the holy grail.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 19, 2016, 06:00:22 pm
Turning CO2 from a waste product we can't get rid of, into a valuable commodity we use to make other things, is basically the holy grail.
At the very least, could be a useful way of implementing energy storage. Create ethanol from spare solar/wind/grid energy and then burn it again when demand outstrips local supply of those other sources. Not sure it'd be as efficient as a reversable hydrogen fuel-cell, but might have advantages (temporary ethanol storage vs temporary hydrogen storage, for example)...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Calidovi on October 19, 2016, 06:06:46 pm
Would this be cheaper than an average fuel cell? Maybe not now, but in a few years.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 19, 2016, 06:34:30 pm
Well, I mean, trees turn CO2 into stuff like wood and leaves, farmers turn it into corn and then ethanol.

Also the next wave of mechanicals are optical switches: http://blog.wooting.nl/flaretech-the-optical-keyboard-switch/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: 3man75 on October 19, 2016, 07:03:05 pm
Just an idea.

If human work is automated than we could lose alot of jobs. Said humans may need to go back to school to learn and re-tool for newer jobs. But also if humans can just have these robots work then why work yourself?

My point being that if/me/us become obsolete than why would would it be needed for us to be around? Why would leaders WANT us around when some have expressed distaste for Blacks, Latinos, and Native Americans before? This is obviously american cenric but the same can be applied to Europeans and the Gypsies that are still hated over there.

From the point of my limited economists mindset, we the obsolete will fade. Just a thing I wanted to say earlier in the thread.

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/10/18/194231/co2-to-ethanol-in-one-step-with-cheap-catalyst

Here's a happy one though. Oak Ridge National Laboratory have discovered a simple catalyst to turn CO2 + water directly into ethanol. And it's a government lab, so it won't be locked down with corporate patents.

Quote
The team used a catalyst made of carbon, copper and nitrogen and applied voltage to trigger a complicated chemical reaction that essentially reverses the combustion process. With the help of the nanotechnology-based catalyst which contains multiple reaction sites, the solution of carbon dioxide dissolved in water turned into ethanol with a yield of 63 percent. Typically, this type of electrochemical reaction results in a mix of several different products in small amounts. "We're taking carbon dioxide, a waste product of combustion, and we're pushing that combustion reaction backwards with very high selectivity to a useful fuel," Rondinone said. "Ethanol was a surprise -- it's extremely difficult to go straight from carbon dioxide to ethanol with a single catalyst."

Very nice stuff, the catalyst only uses common elements, it uses electricity (which could be from solar) to convert the CO2 directly into a usable alcohol. This could also compete against biofuels, which would reduce the pressure on farm lands while also reducing food price inflation. Turning CO2 from a waste product we can't get rid of, into a valuable commodity we use to make other things, is basically the holy grail.

Praise be to basic renewable resources.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 23, 2016, 12:40:49 pm
O_O
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Calidovi on October 23, 2016, 03:38:29 pm
how are leaders going to stay in power when they have robots that obsolete them?

Well, I mean, trees turn CO2 into stuff like wood and leaves, farmers turn it into corn and then ethanol.

Yeah, but the systems for reverse combustion. Not the ethanol itself.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 01:04:52 am
I think the main benefit is not just that you can store energy, but you can store it in a way that sucks CO2 out of the air. Obviously if you're burning it then you can say "yeah but it ends up back in the atmosphere" but that misses the point that a fair amount of it will be processed into ethanol at any one time: there would be a lot in production, transit, storage at any time if this became a common fuel. So a lot of CO2 would be locked up in the process itself. You can make plastics out of ethanol as well, not just burn the stuff. Solar/wind plastics.

https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/10/23/0310200/a-british-supercomputer-can-predict-winter-weather-a-year-in-advance

Here's another nice one. Using improved climate models and supercomputers, as well as decades of data, the British have a program that could have forecast the weather one year in advance with a 62% success rate, going back to 1980 data. With models like that maybe things like in Back To the Future II where they tell you the exact time that the rain will start/stop can become feasible.

Obviously, models like this can be over-trained (i.e. trained to a "just-so" prediction that fails on new data), but there are basic established techniques to avoid and test for that, which I assume they'd follow: e.g. you train your predictive model on some of the data, then you use the remaining data, which the model has never seen before, to check it's predictive power. That's exactly the same in practice as training it on past data, and checking against future data. You're just moving the concept of "future" back a few years.

Just an idea.

If human work is automated than we could lose alot of jobs. Said humans may need to go back to school to learn and re-tool for newer jobs. But also if humans can just have these robots work then why work yourself?

A couple of points come to mind. This scenario firstly requires that humans can go back to school and re-tool for newer jobs faster than the robots can. That's been true before, when robots were only good at a few isolated things: a few "islands" of task-types but as robots get better, those islands grow and join up. Eventually, you're treading water to learn new skills faster than the robots do, and there are cases where the robot isn't as good as a human, but they're "good enough" while being a lot cheaper and faster and more consistent.

The second point is that say you buy a robot then send that robot to work for you. Well, other people will be doing that as well, so your robot will be competing for jobs with other people's robots. Then, people who don't manage their robots in a cost-effective way will lose out, and more streamlined, larger robot-owning corporations will squeeze your home-owned robots out of the market. So you might have a situation where you personally own a robot that can theoretically go out and earn money for you, but all the opportunities are already taken by other wealthier robot-owners who have economies of scale going on. Sort of like how bitcoin mining started on CPUs, went to GPUs, then went to ASICS, then went to super-clusters of ASICs. Someone is still making money off bitcoin, and your shitty PC can still theoretically mine it, but your actual share would currently be like 1 cent per decade. You probably couldn't afford the electricity to run your robot on the paltry amount of income it would earn when competing with giant robot-owning corporate groups.

But just think: we already have a solution for not being able to compete. And it's not robots. Say you want a slice of the action on soda sales. Do you need to go set up a small bottling plant and hope you can out-compete Coca Cola? Well not really. Coca Cola has shares which you can buy, and you get dividends. Similarly, if all labor is robots in the future then economies of scale will kick in, with large robot-owning corporations. But shares would probably still be a thing, so you can get a slice of the pie on robot labor by just buying shares.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Calidovi on October 24, 2016, 08:38:43 am
so capitalism will save us from the robot menace
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 24, 2016, 08:50:27 am
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/10/23/0310200/a-british-supercomputer-can-predict-winter-weather-a-year-in-advance

Here's another nice one. Using improved climate models and supercomputers, as well as decades of data, the British have a program that could have forecast the weather one year in advance with a 62% success rate, going back to 1980 data.
It's not just any weather, it's British Weather...  Our weather is so complex that we can have hosepipe bans and extreme flooding at the same time. And whilst the six foot snowdrifts in the north cause a few minor delays to rural bus sevices, the millimetres of snow barely sitting in the crook of the kerbstone edge of London streets causes even the Underground trains to be brought to a halt...

Fear our computing power, for we are all powerful! ! We are omniscient!!!! We are thinking it looks like it might just spit it down a little shortly, and are wondering whether to bring the washing in...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 24, 2016, 11:23:10 am
Well, 62% accuracy on predicting the behavior of the NAO isn't bad, not quite the same as a high resolution weather prediction though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 02:23:15 pm
so capitalism will save us from the robot menace

Actually, I think the opposite can be glean from that.

3man75 was talking about a hypothetical situation where you can't get a job because robots, but you own a robot and send that out to work for you. My point was how that isn't actually going to work. Your mom-and-pop robot labor operation isn't competing with the Roboto-Renta-Corp conglomerate. Sure you can get shares, but I dun messed up and left off the last step: you're also competing for the share of production with all other investors. So without a job, you're screwed on share investment as a way to avoid poverty.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 24, 2016, 02:33:37 pm
If there are enough robots that a vast majority of people will be out of work, we will have entered a golden age with enough resources to not need to work.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 03:24:30 pm
I don't know that the fun old times when nobody has a job are a given. There's a difference between not needing to work, and not being needed to work.

Not being needed to work could be like the freedom that farm cows would achieve in the great golden future when they're not longer being eaten. They'll be free, but they won't exist.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 24, 2016, 07:57:54 pm
Large numbers of people are already not needed for work in the rust belt of the United States.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: 3man75 on October 24, 2016, 09:28:04 pm
I didn't mean to say buy a personal robot that can do your job for you...but kay.

What I mean is why would people support other huamans being ALIVE if they can all be replaced by bots? I know this is silly but if Hitler could replace everyone he killed with bots for his factories then theoretically the Germans would have lasted much longer. However, he coudn't. An after all of the political purges before and after taking power Hitler's Germany had manpower shortages.

Now this is theoretical but what if the 1% decide the world isn't big enough for the 99%? That's the question. Can they get away with letting us die or would they still need us to buy/consume products and services?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on October 24, 2016, 09:34:51 pm
what happens it the entire capitalistic system collapses for want of a point of existing anymore.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on October 24, 2016, 09:47:53 pm
In a capitalist system, you don't need people to consume unless you need something they produce. When labor is no longer necessary to produce capital, laborers are worth nothing despite having a cost to maintain, and so will be optimized out of the system.

Or in short: it's you or capitalism, take your pick.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on October 24, 2016, 10:01:50 pm
Agreed.  Either capitalism becomes obsolete or most people do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 10:08:39 pm
Agreed.  Either capitalism becomes obsolete or most people do.

Playing devil's advocate here for a minute here, just because people's roles become obsolete doesn't mean the person themselves become obsolete. e.g. we didn't literally gas the weavers to death when the Jacquard loom was introduced. People saw their job ending, saw it as the end of the world, but they moved to new roles, which were also labor roles. Now, people see the "labor" role itself ending, they also see that as the end of the world. But might there not already be perfect valid roles that are outside of the "labor" worldview that people will move into?

Economic disruption is not really proof of being permanently screwed by changes. We've seen economic disruption countless times before and people have come out ok. "rust belt" problems seem insurmountable because they're current. But they may not be as insurmountable as the Great Depression of the 1930s, which America pulled out of fine. We'd really have to see how the Rust Belt looks like in a generation or two, once the stories of having your job shipped to China are grandpa's old stories which nobody really gets.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 24, 2016, 10:10:41 pm
In a capitalist system, you don't need people to consume unless you need something they produce. When labor is no longer necessary to produce capital, laborers are worth nothing despite having a cost to maintain, and so will be optimized out of the system.

Or in short: it's you or capitalism, take your pick.

Okay. It seems like we're missing the big picture here. Which is what I was trying to say earlier. If we have LITERALLY ENOUGH ROBOTS TO MAKE ALL HUMAN LABOUR UNNECESSARY, why would there even be an economy? We would literally live in Utopia where all of our needs were provided for.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on October 24, 2016, 10:20:40 pm
Exactly.  To both.  We get over the idea that employment is necessary to justify survival, which is basically abandoning modern capitalism as we know it, or a lot of people find they're unable to justify their survival.

Unless we turn to the entire economy being driven by mandatory participation in hobbyist arts & crafts trade.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 10:23:05 pm
... and that, is actually what I've deduced Marx meant by Communism.

Marx wrote that advanced capitalism would lead to widespread automation of production, making labor obsolete, and that this would lead to a situation where nobody needs to work. At this point, goods would no longer be allocated on a "work done" basis, because such a basis wouldn't make any sense, any more than it would make sense for New York to shift to a "conch shell based economy" similar to historic pacific islands.

From this understanding, you can see that "communist nations" had it backwards. A communist nation guaranteed 100% employment, and prevented your job being automated. e.g. it froze labor relations in time. Thus actually preventing the very conditions Marx talked about that would be necessary for a Communist Economy.

Also, Marx's theory was Historical Materialism, he wrote that phases of economic growth follow each other out of necessity. e.g. it was a given that it would evolve from feudalism -> mercantilism -> capitalism. Marx said that Socialism would inevitably arise out of the conflicts in capitalism, and we do in fact see the most advanced economies moving towards social democracy. And that communism would be a state after this in which automation frees us from labor, and we allocate based on need. If you automate a modern society then expand welfare or put minimum basic income in place, you have virtually the exact thing Marx said would happen to capitalism.

Thus the development from one stage to the next is not about choices or singular events, but about tipping points where one system inevitably phases out another.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 24, 2016, 10:24:34 pm
Yeah, obviously capitalism needs to die, but there is a certain inertia to it, and corporations are entities which exist specifically to keep themselves existing. There is a lack of sanity in a corporation which means there is no reason to expect them to acquiesce to the death of capitalism quietly.

... and that, is actually what I've deduced Marx meant by Communism.

Marx wrote that advanced capitalism would lead to widespread automation of production, making labor obsolete, and that this would lead to a situation where nobody needs to work. At this point, goods would no longer be allocated on a "work done" basis, because such a basis wouldn't make any sense, any more than it would make sense for New York to shift to a "conch shell based economy" similar to historic pacific islands.

From this understanding, you can see that "communist nations" had it backwards. A communist nation guaranteed 100% employment, and prevented your job being automated. e.g. it froze labor relations in time. Thus actually preventing the very conditions Marx talked about that would be necessary for a Communist Economy.
The communist revolution is indeed supposed to take place over generations.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PanH on October 24, 2016, 10:27:37 pm
In a capitalist system, you don't need people to consume unless you need something they produce. When labor is no longer necessary to produce capital, laborers are worth nothing despite having a cost to maintain, and so will be optimized out of the system.

Or in short: it's you or capitalism, take your pick.

Okay. It seems like we're missing the big picture here. Which is what I was trying to say earlier. If we have LITERALLY ENOUGH ROBOTS TO MAKE ALL HUMAN LABOUR UNNECESSARY, why would there even be an economy? We would literally live in Utopia where all of our needs were provided for.
This is kinda naive. Even robots are not free to produce or maintain. Literally all of the labor works would be replaced, but I don't see how or why would big companies/investors/rich people offer welfare to all the population that was living on labor works. A situation where a robotic economy would be achieved through capitalism advancement but abandoned afterwards would need a pretty big paradigm shift, or something akin to a worldwide (industrial or not) revolution.
Also, it could lead to a stagnation in all research, expansion and such. It's pretty easy to realize that capitalism won't cut it, but we'll need a new system that works.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 10:35:05 pm
It's actually more naive to say "I don't see how or why would big companies/investors/rich people offer welfare".

Because ... we already do what you said. So that objection is clearly out of whack with reality.

If you look at The Soviet Union, what you're actually looking at is the end result of running an entire nation as a single corporation. There's nobody to sell stuff to, so everything stagnates. Basically an advanced nation where everything is owned by a few corporations and nobody has a job is headed to the same place as the USSR. Who are the corporations going to sell stuff to: each other? How are any of them going to make a profit then?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on October 24, 2016, 10:35:10 pm
Believe it or not, lots of people don't need the threat of starvation to be motivated to strive for progress.  Probably more than enough people to continue making things better long after we've developed the infrastructure to maintain all of humanity's basic needs with very little effort... which we arguable already have, but don't make proper use of.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PanH on October 24, 2016, 10:38:37 pm
It's actually more naive to say "I don't see how or why would big companies/investors/rich people offer welfare".

Because ... we already do what you said. So that objection is clearly out of whack with reality.
It is done only because the government is forcing their hand. Social Marketing is making use of it, but there is no unmotivated handing out of welfare.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 10:42:48 pm
Well the government is elected by the people not corporations, so you'd need a good reason that the people would elect someone who lets them starve to death despite production increasing. People are gradually going to be out of work because of automation, they're going to be covered by existing programs such as Medicaid, Food Stamps etc. If 100% of people are out of work, 100% of people are eligible for existing welfare. And those people are the voters.

Sure, corporations have a big influence on elections, but within reason. Politicians still have to maintain laws which at least give people a baseline of existence. Hence why minimum wage laws exist etc, despite corporations utterly hating those laws.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PanH on October 24, 2016, 10:45:42 pm
Well the government is elected by the people not corporations, so you'd need a good reason that the people would elect someone who lets them starve to death despite production increasing.

Sure, corporations have a big influence on elections, but within reason. Politicians still have to maintain laws which at least give people are baseline of existence. Hence why minimum wage laws exist etc, despite corporations utterly hating those laws.
Agreed, there is no starvation in a democracy. But the poor - rich gap might grow even wider.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 10:46:34 pm
Yeah, but the question would then be what's the basis for becoming rich if nobody is there to buy your stuff?

Also, "rich" could easily be redefined, for example by a currency devaluation or similar when things become untenable.

Remember to stay rich, the value of your assets has to increase faster than inflation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 24, 2016, 10:48:04 pm
Well the government is elected by the people not corporations, so you'd need a good reason that the people would elect someone who lets them starve to death despite production increasing. People are gradually going to be out of work because of automation, they're going to be covered by existing programs such as Medicaid, Food Stamps etc. If 100% of people are out of work, 100% of people are eligible for existing welfare. And those people are the voters.

Sure, corporations have a big influence on elections, but within reason. Politicians still have to maintain laws which at least give people a baseline of existence. Hence why minimum wage laws exist etc, despite corporations utterly hating those laws.
Well, no, there isn't much reason or limits after CU, that's why people are hoping it will be repealed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 10:50:59 pm
I was making a deeper point. Corporations can only push so far. There are lots of things that nobody would ever dream of trying to push through. You just don't think there are limits because nobody pushes the real limits of what can be proposed.

How about the "all poor babies go into a woodchipper" law, ala Swift's A Modest Proposal. It really wouldn't matter if 100% of corporations pushed that law, it's just not even getting debated. There are limits on what politicians can try and do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 24, 2016, 11:02:23 pm
Prior to Trump showing how far money and a name can get someone, I would have argued that there are limits.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 11:07:06 pm
Prior to Trump showing how far money and a name can get someone, I would have argued that there are limits.

No, there are still limits. Even Trump's nowhere close to the example I gave.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 24, 2016, 11:07:46 pm
Well no, but I was ignoring the hyperbole. :D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 24, 2016, 11:09:19 pm
But it wasn't hyperbole: it's an example of a "too far" thing. And it's the existence of "too far" things at all which was the point I was making. You might say "there are no limits" but there are in fact extremely strong limits on what can be said, because you're discounting that one example, but I could literally come up with millions of permutations of "unspeakable" laws.

And when it boils down to it, we were talking about whether universal unemployment would mean universal welfare (which, I might add they would already be legally entitled to), or whether the people would literally vote themselves to starve to death. Not even Trump is calling for an end to food stamps. Trump has complained that too many people are getting Food Stamps under Obama, but even hinting at getting rid of the Food Stamps at all is going too far politically, even for someone like Trump, who says he can shoot people and still get elected.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 24, 2016, 11:21:15 pm
This is kinda naive. Even robots are not free to produce or maintain. Literally all of the labor works would be replaced, but I don't see how or why would big companies/investors/rich people offer welfare to all the population that was living on labor works. A situation where a robotic economy would be achieved through capitalism advancement but abandoned afterwards would need a pretty big paradigm shift, or something akin to a worldwide (industrial or not) revolution.
Also, it could lead to a stagnation in all research, expansion and such. It's pretty easy to realize that capitalism won't cut it, but we'll need a new system that works.

What is known as "the economy" is really just one aspect of the human condition. Just because everyone would have everything they ever would want or need because all the labor is automated doesn't mean people stop competing with each other (because they literally can't.) It just means focus is shifted. Our statuses would just be decided by something other than material wealth.

Of course, people will never be 100% equal in terms of material possessions, due simply to thinking differently, or not caring, or what have you, but lets make an example of this. A very common thing humans have. Oxygen. There's enough to go around for everyone. No one cares how much or little oxygen you have and no wars are fought over it. If quite literally ALL labor were to be automated, our sense of achievement and social status would merely shift to something that was not common. Certainly there would be war, disease, and suffering, but the quality of life would be higher, and our "economy" would merely be based on something else like number of children, or whatever rare materials still existed. Animals owned, etc. etc.

EDIT: Also, to go back and address your first point. Sure, actual perfection is impossible--but it's our ability to imagine hypothetically perfect systems that allow us to advance our understanding. Also, IF there were unlimited goods/necessities/luxuries, why would people not give them out for free? They would have no value. Thus it wouldn't be offering welfare at all.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 24, 2016, 11:24:44 pm
I was saying that a shift to a post-capitalist society will be fought by corporations, whether the people working for those corps want it or not, because that is what the logic of corporate existence demands. Having them able to more or less buy elections just makes the endgame scarier, neutering them now will pay off when we have to deal with them later.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 24, 2016, 11:32:35 pm
I was saying that a shift to a post-capitalist society will be fought by corporations, whether the people working for those corps want it or not, because that is what the logic of corporate existence demands. Having them able to more or less buy elections just makes the endgame scarier, neutering them now will pay off when we have to deal with them later.

I agree. In my edit, I mention how actual perfection of a system is practically impossible. There will never be a world without some kind of economy. However, your postulation provokes an interesting question. Yes. If we are to look at each company as its own being, then yes the logic of that being would be to preserve its existence. BUT, only so long as it's constituent workers are reliant on its success (like cells in your body) otherwise the being would cease to exist, no? Lets just say, if every corporation in the world was presented at the exact same time with the opportunity to produce every possible product in unlimited amounts right now, someone would take it, would they not? If so, then by necessity other companies would need also to produce unlimited amounts of high-quality goods to continue to exist... but at that point, there is no natural need for their constituent workers to need them so everything just collapses and everyone has everything. Of course, artificial demand could be created... but since every company has the ability to generate unlimited goods, they could always be undercutting the costs of anyone who tried to do so.

Again. A perfect scenario, impossible, but could we as a society approach is asymptotically?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: i2amroy on October 25, 2016, 02:08:11 pm
I agree. In my edit, I mention how actual perfection of a system is practically impossible. There will never be a world without some kind of economy. However, your postulation provokes an interesting question. Yes. If we are to look at each company as its own being, then yes the logic of that being would be to preserve its existence. BUT, only so long as it's constituent workers are reliant on its success (like cells in your body) otherwise the being would cease to exist, no? Lets just say, if every corporation in the world was presented at the exact same time with the opportunity to produce every possible product in unlimited amounts right now, someone would take it, would they not? If so, then by necessity other companies would need also to produce unlimited amounts of high-quality goods to continue to exist... but at that point, there is no natural need for their constituent workers to need them so everything just collapses and everyone has everything. Of course, artificial demand could be created... but since every company has the ability to generate unlimited goods, they could always be undercutting the costs of anyone who tried to do so.
i2amroy opens shop up in the old fashioned style, proclaiming "hand made goods" and making tons of money off the doubters of the new method. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 25, 2016, 03:40:30 pm
Interesting enough to watch.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 25, 2016, 03:50:54 pm
^ Automated post update watching. See? Machines are taking over.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 25, 2016, 04:01:46 pm
I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on October 27, 2016, 04:41:20 pm
In some economic news, the US company Qualcomm, the third largest chip producer in the world, bought my hometown's company NXP, 7th largest chip producer and world market leader in automotive chips (from chips for aitconditioning and the rear mirror to the chips used in Google car and other robot vehicles), for 43 billion euros. This is nearly double the amount (27 billion euros) that was rumoured last month, when word of plans for a take-over first came out. Multiple other parties being interested seems to have driven the price up quite a bit, to NXP's benefit.

It's a big change for Qualcomm, which designs chips, but up until now, did not produce hem themselves (they outsourced all production). With the acquisition of NXP they gain 7 chip producing factories. The automotive chips are also new for them. With this acquisition they want to future proof their company, as they saw sales of other chips deteriorate, with the market being oversaturated.
40% of NXP's profits are made in the automotive industry. Smart cars worldwide rely on it's chips. Next to that, they produce chips for credit cards, wireless payment chips, public transport chip cards, and building access cards.

I'm not sure if I'm happy for it or not. There's some communalism in me that tells me to stop selling every darn succesful tech company from my home town to foreign bidders (Oh Philips why hath thou forsaken us). Then again, there's many succesful US / Dutch partnerships in the tech branch so it should be fine. As long as they don't tear down all factories here and move them to India or whatever other highly-educated-but-cheap workforce country.

EDIT: so yeah, any forumite with tech background interested should check for job openings in the Netherlands. I'm sure the new owners will want to employ some US citizens abroad. Tech branch pays well. Healthcare is awesome. Nearly everyone over age 12 speaks english.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 03:51:34 am
http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/28/13463236/tesla-solar-roof-battery-new-elon-musk
The solar roof idea is something I've hoping for, for a long time. Clearly this looks a lot better than bolting panels on:

(https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/QrAsdw7X-i-o7NDAAn_jn9fGjZU=/46x0:1954x1073/1600x900/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/51586107/press_solar_roof.1477702557.jpg)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Akura on October 29, 2016, 04:18:49 am
Solar panel roof? Fine. Solar panel driveway? Fine pieces of glass in your tires.

Also, what architect designed that house? I see no bathroom, no kitchen, and no stairway to access the second-floor bedroom.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 04:20:53 am
Making glass which is capable of withstanding highway traffic is something we can do, handling parking is nothing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 29, 2016, 09:03:22 am
Glasphalt exists.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on October 29, 2016, 09:06:36 am
Solar panel roof? Fine. Solar panel driveway? Fine pieces of glass in your tires.

Also, what architect designed that house? I see no bathroom, no kitchen, and no stairway to access the second-floor bedroom.
It's not a second floor, it's a high ceiling. Zoom in.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2016, 03:21:38 am
Found a good one:

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/11/05/0434217/a-new-process-turns-sewage-into-crude-oil

Quote
The U.S. Department of Energy's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory has found a way to potentially produce 30 million barrels of biocrude oil per year from the 34 billion gallons of raw sewage that Americans create every day... The raw sewage is placed in a reactor that's basically a tube pressurized to 3,000 pounds per square inch and heated to 660 degrees Fahrenheit, which mimics the same geological process that turned prehistoric organic matter into crude oil by breaking it down into simple compounds, only...it takes minutes instead of epochs... The end product is very similar to fossil crude oil with a bit of oxygen and water mixed in and can be refined like crude oil using conventional fractionating plants.

But honestly, who'd actually want to run their car on this shit?

Digital flavors for VR, dieting or just snacks I guess (https://science.slashdot.org/story/16/11/05/0447205/face-electrodes-let-you-taste-and-chew-in-virtual-reality).
Intel makes drones that act like fireworks for displays (https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/11/04/2317255/intel-wants-to-replace-fireworks-with-drones)
Title: You mean... Reality?
Post by: The Beast on November 06, 2016, 03:39:18 am
Fully immersive VR is the game of life.
You just cant change avatar or plot after selection, just improve the base experience.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2016, 03:48:50 am
Well you could use that argument against anything at all, reading books for example.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 06, 2016, 06:34:11 am
Found a good one:

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/11/05/0434217/a-new-process-turns-sewage-into-crude-oil

Quote
The U.S. Department of Energy's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory has found a way to potentially produce 30 million barrels of biocrude oil per year from the 34 billion gallons of raw sewage that Americans create every day... The raw sewage is placed in a reactor that's basically a tube pressurized to 3,000 pounds per square inch...
Pressurised? I can only imagine how much they don't want their sludge to come into contact with their fan... ;)

Quote
Quote
...and heated to 660 degrees Fahrenheit,
Well, that's convinced me. It now sounds like really hot s...tuff.

:P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on November 06, 2016, 06:37:02 am
It's hard to see that actually producing surplus energy. To achieve that pressure and temperature, how much coal is burned / nuclear waste generated?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 06, 2016, 06:59:32 am
It's a repackaging thing. All that surplus energy from the desert sunlight/mountain torrent/brineous straights/orbital microwave-beamer can be theoretically squeezed into into a relatively stable high energy-density form that all vehicles except Ford Pintos can safely carry with them for many more miles of travel than trying to do the same by just storing the electricity directly into battery storage, even if that's also rather safe (barring the Ford Galaxy Note 7) and maybe a little bit more efficient.

Plus, it sounds green. Whatever colour it really is.

(And dibs on refilling pumped-out salt-domes, so that the next civilisation to populate Earth get the chance to make all the same mistakes as we did!)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on November 06, 2016, 08:07:45 am
On the bright side, when turning sewage into oil, we can introduce the crapton as an official metric.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2016, 09:26:30 am
Well it's probably not any less efficient than digging special rocks up from inside the ground and burning them. There's a lot of overhead in any of that. To get to the coal, you're digging through a whole lot of not-coal, and then you have any costs associated with that, plus you've lost money on whatever else that land could be used for.

Turning sewerage into fuel has the opposite impact to mining coal: it costs money and land to get rid of sewerage, so the cost of making biofuels out of it is offset by the savings of not treating it the way you normally do. Also, biofuels are worth money, whereas regular sewerage treatment doesn't produce a commodity.

So, even if the net energy-in and energy-out of this process are identical or it's lossy, there are other savings that need to be factored in.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on November 06, 2016, 12:44:26 pm
In some immediate down-to-earth / going to be having real effects on us in the very near future type-news... the very first commercial automated semi-truck delivery was made about a week ago.  Delivered some thousands of cases of beer over a little over 100 mile distance.  And I think the truck was owned by Uber?

Anyone else notice?  This is pretty big news.  Truck driving has been projected to be the next industry to be hit hard by automation for years now, and this is finally it for real.  Implementation should be easier than many industries that have seen automation digging in, I imagine.  Don't need to custom design a machine and do a bunch of re-building for every operation replaced by automation.  You just buy the truck and fire the driver.  Once the things are trusted enough to make runs without a human on board monitoring, that is, which I can't imagine will be too long, given the obvious financial incentive. 

Trucking is a huge, huge employer, so this is expected to have a major economic impact.  Could it be the point where popular opinion sways towards the need to ditch capitalism as we know it, and consider things like basic income?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2016, 12:49:53 pm
Quote
Quote
...and heated to 660 degrees Fahrenheit,
Well, that's convinced me. It now sounds like really hot s...tuff.

:P

It's probably a rounding error. The exact optimal temperature is 666 degrees f.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2016, 12:53:05 pm
The funny thing is, we think of driving a car as something you need human-level intelligence for. But perhaps we're wrong about that in the same way that people once said "AI won't work a computer could never beat a human at chess". That's real BTW.

Driving a car on paved roads is a thing with some pretty detailed set of rules about what you can and can't do, what's expected of you. So perhaps it's very well suited as a field for automation.

People went from viewing chess as beyond computers to something inherently suited to computers. This also affected how we view what computers are capable of. Perhaps automated driving will have the same sort of synergy?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on November 06, 2016, 01:03:25 pm
In some immediate down-to-earth / going to be having real effects on us in the very near future type-news... the very first commercial automated semi-truck delivery was made about a week ago.  Delivered some thousands of cases of beer over a little over 100 mile distance.  And I think the truck was owned by Uber?

Anyone else notice?  This is pretty big news.  Truck driving has been projected to be the next industry to be hit hard by automation for years now, and this is finally it for real.  Implementation should be easier than many industries that have seen automation digging in, I imagine.  Don't need to custom design a machine and do a bunch of re-building for every operation replaced by automation.  You just buy the truck and fire the driver.  Once the things are trusted enough to make runs without a human on board monitoring, that is, which I can't imagine will be too long, given the obvious financial incentive. 

Trucking is a huge, huge employer, so this is expected to have a major economic impact.  Could it be the point where popular opinion sways towards the need to ditch capitalism as we know it, and consider things like basic income?
I believe the truck was a Google project. The chips for it were made by the company I posted about a page or two back, that was bought for billions of dollars by the american chip designer, it was one of their big showcases on automotive chips.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on November 06, 2016, 01:08:10 pm
Driving has always seemed to me like one of the things most obviously best suited for a computer.  Faster reaction times, no variation in awareness levels, 100% adherence to rules, etc.

Also just read that apparently the system that drove that truck can be easily retro-fitted onto any truck with an automatic transmission?  It's only designed for driving on the interstate, so a human driver is intended to take over when driving in the city and making delivery.  It automatically pulls over at pre-determined locations for the human driver to take over.  So... instead of having a driver on-board for the whole trip, you can just have staff at off-ramp hubs who hop in, make the delivery, and are back at the hub in 20 min.  At the very least, this completely eliminates the need to ever have team drivers for non-stop overnight hauls.

It was actually Uber [link] (https://www.wired.com/2016/10/ubers-self-driving-truck-makes-first-delivery-50000-beers/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on November 06, 2016, 01:10:56 pm
Looks like metallic hydrogen (http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/11/if-newly-created-metallic-hydrogen.html) is a thing now.

Nextbigfuture is hyperventilating and assuming it's metastable. And then it's assuming that metastable metallic hydrogen will be a safe superconductor that won't explode when, say, jostled slightly.

Stepping back a bit from the over-excitability threshold... it's still really, really cool. Even if it's only stable at cryonic temperatures and moderately high pressures, it might be a fantastic way to store and use hydrogen. One big problem with hydrogen as a rocket fuel is that it leaks through everything. A stable solid form would have no such problem. Then all you need to do is dump solid cryonic hydrogen metal powder into a nuclear reactor and you have a two-stage nuclear thermal rocket.

Or maybe spray hydrogen chaff into a liquid oxygen stream and you have a top-tier chemical rocket.

Lots of options.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Skynet on November 06, 2016, 03:12:42 pm
The funny thing is, we think of driving a car as something you need human-level intelligence for. But perhaps we're wrong about that in the same way that people once said "AI won't work a computer could never beat a human at chess". That's real BTW.

Even during that era, there was at least one person who realized that human-level intelligence isn't necessary for chess-playing. I would like to refer to the  1971 Lighthill Report (http://www.math.snu.ac.kr/~hichoi/infomath/Articles/Lighthill%20Report.pdf), a report that was responsible for massive cuts in AI spending in Great Britain and caused a mini-AI Winter.

Quote
[C]hess is a complicated enough game so that in a contest between a computer and a human player the computer's advantages of being able to calculate reliably at a speed several orders of magnitude faster need by no means be decisive (the number of possible positions being incomparably greater) and so there is real interest in whether or not they are outweighed by the human player's pattern-recognition ability, flexibility of approach, learning capacity and emotional drive to win. Another good reason for investigating chess-playing programs is that the long-term interest of the big international computer manufacturers in bringing about some spectacular achievement of machine intelligence against such a well developed human intelligence as an able chess player, in order to assist in selling more generally their products' potentiality for superseding human intellectual activity, has been an incentive to the devotion of quite considerable resources to producing an effective program.

It is interesting to consider the results of all this work some twenty-five years after the researches aimed at chess-playing programs began: unfortunately these results are discouraging. The best programs play chess of only experienced amateur standard characteristic of county club players in England. Chess masters beat them easily.

More important, progress on constructing chess-playing programs has been made solely by heuristic methods. The programs seek to maximise in what may be called the foreseeable short term a complicated evaluation function; this function, constructed entirely from human knowledge and skill, represents an evaluation of a position, depending on large numbers of different measurable features of it with different weights attached to them. What relatively modest success the programs have achieved is a measure primarily of human skill and experience in the concoction of this evaluation function. The computer's contribution is primarily rapidity in looking a few moves ahead and finding a line that produces a position change good on the basis of that evaluation. The intelligence contribution is human; what the computer offers is its speed, reliability and biddability. By contrast, learning programs are not considered applicable to computer chess at present.

To sum up, this evidence and all the rest studied by the present author on AI work within [robotics] during the past twenty-five years is to some extent encouraging about programs written to perform in highly specialised problem domains, when the programming takes very full account of the results of human experience and human intelligence within the relevant domain, but is wholly discouraging about general-purpose programs seeking to mimic the problem-solving aspects of human CNS activity over a rather wide field. Such a general- purpose program, the coveted long-term goal of AI activity, seems as remote as ever.

Today we have been able to build programs that are extremely good at chess, but only chess. Of course, now we actually do use learning programs (machine learning), so maybe...this time is different?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2016, 05:00:11 pm
Quote
Today we have been able to build programs that are extremely good at chess, but only chess.

That's just not true. A min/max algorithm is 100% good at every game that has a set of finite states, given enough processing power, and it only needs a finite amount of memory. Could you say the same for a human, that any human could solve any game trivially given enough time?

The reason we make chess solvers is because they're more efficient than min/max - a hard-wired solution is just going to be faster than one that can consider all possible games. But the domain-specific one is a lot harder to write, not easier. It's needed because computers have very limited processing compared to a brain.

If we threw the amount of CPU power that the brain has at basic un-optimized min/max then could we still beat that?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Akura on November 06, 2016, 08:23:38 pm
Found a good one:

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/11/05/0434217/a-new-process-turns-sewage-into-crude-oil

Quote
The U.S. Department of Energy's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory has found a way to potentially produce 30 million barrels of biocrude oil per year from the 34 billion gallons of raw sewage that Americans create every day... The raw sewage is placed in a reactor that's basically a tube pressurized to 3,000 pounds per square inch and heated to 660 degrees Fahrenheit, which mimics the same geological process that turned prehistoric organic matter into crude oil by breaking it down into simple compounds, only...it takes minutes instead of epochs... The end product is very similar to fossil crude oil with a bit of oxygen and water mixed in and can be refined like crude oil using conventional fractionating plants.

But honestly, who'd actually want to run their car on this shit?

Quote from: CEO Nwabudike Morgan, Morgan Industries
Fossils fuels in the last century reached their extreme prices because of their inherent utility: they pack a great deal of potential energy into an extremely efficient package. If we can but sidestep the 100-million-year production process, we can corner this market once again.

The thing about this isn't creating a new energy production, it's creating new energy storage.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2016, 08:30:06 pm
Well it's more than that. It also circumvents a waste problem. And if you look at history, innovations often come from rethinking a waste product. Gasoline for example was considered an unpleasant byproduct of kerosene production, so they used to dump it into rivers.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Emma on November 06, 2016, 08:56:22 pm
Driving has always seemed to me like one of the things most obviously best suited for a computer.  Faster reaction times, no variation in awareness levels, 100% adherence to rules, etc.
It's always seemed like that to me as well, most of the people around me seem to disagree though. They seem to think that humans are inherently better at absolutely everything.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Amperzand on November 06, 2016, 08:57:20 pm
PTW
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on November 06, 2016, 09:04:49 pm
I suppose that people don't like the idea of "those robots" having control over cars. They imagine that a robot uprising could occur, and then self-driving cars would wreak havoc on the world. (Or they could be hacked, etc.)

There are a few issues with that:

1. People could do that, too. Your neighbor Bob could go insane and drive his car through your house. But that's so unlikely that we don't worry about it. Similarly, with decent security, we could make the odds of a self-driving car driving itself directly into a pedestrian very low. (And since it's not really an AI...)

2. XKCD (https://what-if.xkcd.com/5/) notes that cars already have computers. All this would do is allow them to see and steer. Bad, but not that bad.

There's also the potential reason of "I want people driving cars, so we have someone to hold responsible for an accident!" That's a decent objection.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on November 06, 2016, 09:06:00 pm
Driving has always seemed to me like one of the things most obviously best suited for a computer.  Faster reaction times, no variation in awareness levels, 100% adherence to rules, etc.
It's always seemed like that to me as well, most of the people around me seem to disagree though. They seem to think that humans are inherently better at absolutely everything.
I noticed it tends to alarm people when I inform them how little I think about driving. It's all essentially an automated subroutine I run when I've got pedals and a wheel available. I think when I'm racing along at 200 mph jostling for position and managing fuel and tires. I keep an eye out for unexpected obstacles and potential problems and basically let my body handle the rest when driving. I don't even really think about the destination unless it looks like the current route is less than ideal.

I know that there is too much going on to fully divert my attention doing something stupid like texting, taking selfies, putting on makeup, or any o the other stupid things people do when driving... but I wouldn't call it beyond automation in any sense.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Emma on November 06, 2016, 09:09:04 pm
There's also the potential reason of "I want people driving cars, so we have someone to hold responsible for an accident!" That's a decent objection.
But if an automated car has a crash you still have someone to hold accountable, the designer or manufacturer of the vehicle. They might not be physically driving the car but if there's a crash because of something that they did they can still be held responsible and punished accordingly.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on November 06, 2016, 09:10:53 pm
There's also the potential reason of "I want people driving cars, so we have someone to hold responsible for an accident!" That's a decent objection.

On that note... do you need insurance if you yourself never directly pilot your vehicle?  You didn't cause the accident.  The car's programming did.  It makes more sense to hold the company responsible for that.  So what if you told people "Hey self-driving vehicle = save money because you don't have to buy insurance."

And haven't there been very, very few accidents involving self-driven vehicles, over millions of miles of testing?  And all were caused by other human drivers on the road?  So I don't actually see the companies developing self-driving vehicles having a problem with that liability, especially as the technology takes off and human drivers on the road become less of a risk.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on November 06, 2016, 09:15:06 pm
There's also the potential reason of "I want people driving cars, so we have someone to hold responsible for an accident!" That's a decent objection.

On that note... do you need insurance if you yourself never directly pilot your vehicle?  You didn't cause the accident.  The car's programming did.  It makes more sense to hold the company responsible for that.  So what if you told people "Hey self-driving vehicle = save money because you don't have to buy insurance."

And haven't there been very, very few accidents involving self-driven vehicles, over millions of miles of testing?  And all were caused by other human drivers on the road?  So I don't actually see the companies developing self-driving vehicles having a problem with that liability, especially as the technology takes off and human drivers on the road become less of a risk.
mandatory no fault insurance?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on November 06, 2016, 09:27:15 pm
I'd just like to point out this little anecdote.


My parents own a rather new car; can't recall the brand. The car's cruise control allows for car-length spacing between you and the person ahead (you can set it to be  1 car-length behind, 2, etc), and steers itself to stay between the road lines. Only thing it doesn't really handle well are bends and when you actually need to make a turn or change lanes to reach your destination.

We've been approaching self-driving cars for a while now, by slow incremental improvements.
There are much more involved cruise control forms now.

http://www.porsche.com/international/models/panamera/panamera-4s/assistance-systems/porsche-innodrive/
http://www.porsche.com/international/models/panamera/panamera-4s/assistance-systems/lane-change-assistant/
http://www.porsche.com/international/models/panamera/panamera-4s/assistance-systems/park-assistant/
http://www.porsche.com/international/models/panamera/panamera-4s/assistance-systems/lane-departure-warning/

These are tuned to be a more fun cruise control along with the overhead surround view for parking, warnings if you drift from your lane, and systems to keep track of nearby cars. It'll keep track of the corner radius ahead and alter the throttle/braking to remain within limits you set, so you steer and it does the rest.

Stuff like this will probably filter into more and more cars and bit by bit more aspects of driving will be moved out of the hands of the driver. Manual shifting is damn near a theft deterrent system at this point, various cars can be lined up and told to parallel park, and just do it nowadays. Keeping pace with traffic, altering for cornering, street signs, bit by bit it's moving towards a driver only being present for emergency input, if even that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 07, 2016, 06:19:37 am
An automated vehicle within a controlled environment (say robot forklifts servicing between the stacks of an automated-only warehouse floor) is going to be advantageous compared to the very same system with entirely human controllers. But the safeguards to prevent bad man/machine interactions should probably go so far as to dissallow any pedestrian access down the inter-stack aisles unless the system were specially asked to disallow robo-forklift transit (and possibly sufficiently preventative barriers set up, to maybe both signal that revocation of access and physically gst in the way).

Our roads, however, are not so tightly controlled as the automated warehouse. The problems an automated vehicle has to overcome may start with other autonomous vehicles (inter-vehicle notifications and negotiation might be 'predesigned' into a properly specced vehicle with a wifi-like beacon perhaps) but also passes through manually-controlled vehicles (beacons for which, if they exist, cannot speak for the driver's actual intentions, only its current position and velocity), pedestrians (assumed intelligently aware, for the most part, but requires fully un-negotiated detection), animals (may be intelligent/aware to a lesser degree, but that'd be effectively an exception to the norm) and environment, to name just a few.

Right now, the 'open road' is too open to guarantee that hypersmart and (mostly!) all-seeing vehicles will not be fooled by a swirl of sutumn leaves on the road or somesuch. If not to cause a crash, then to slow down and halt as the vehicle's lidar/camera system inputs are taken as out-of-range taking common-sense beyond mere caution. Almost ensuring zero potential incidents, but also disrupting traffic flow.

But, about the all-seeing: there was the Tesla crash in June (IIRC). The visual systems of the vehicle being allowed to drive 'unattended'1 did not observe a big-rig turning across the road, blending the upper body in with the sky, apparently, so ploughed straight on and under the rear. A person driving with such visual impairment might (admitedly, knowing humans, not as often as they should...) at least have the common sense to know that not being able to see things does not mean that there are no things to see. Maybe the algorithm needs tweaking for additional caution. Maybe all artic trailers need big zebra stripes on them to be seen better in all conditions (except in herds, obviously!). Maybe all trucks should be autonomous such that no road-crossing truck is ever not negotiating its traversal with all traffic within transceiver contact distance?

But, getting from the current human-fallible situation to the machine-perfect future is frought with difficulty in the transition, and probably only asymptotic in the achievement, at least whilst Zion keeps sending out its hovercraft patrols with their pesky EMPs.

1 The owner/nominal-driver, a proponent and enthusiast of the self-driving car was apparently watching a Harry Potter movie and not monitoring his car's 'routine' self-driving behaviour, as Tesla were still recomending its customers do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2016, 07:49:08 am
That's all good theory, but the trials of driverless cars seem to be involved in significantly less accidents per mile than human drivers. So for all that e.g. a computer could be fooled by ambiguous sensory data "swirl of autumn leaves", it seems that on the balance, humans are distracted by more things than the robots.

So the logical error here is to compare any problems a robot car would have to some idealized "perfect driver" who never makes mistakes. That's clearly not a valid argument when it boils down to "human drivers or machine drivers". You need to compare accident statistics, not highlight anecdotal possible accidents that could happen. For all the "swirl of autumn leaves" problems, it's clear that humans get that worse. Maybe not the exact same stimuli, but statistically they cause more accidents.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on November 07, 2016, 07:59:16 am
Additionaly, the events that did cause an AI driver to fuck up showed to also be completely capable of causing a human driver to fuck up. One of the most notorious ones involving a google car was apparently caused by a passing truck reflecting a whole lot of light onto the car's sensors, essentialy blinding it and making the sensors relay incorrect information to its processing unit. On a statistical levels, AI and human drivers are very similar, to the point that considering the current cutting edge AI driven cars unsafe implies one also considers humans to be unsafe drivers.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on November 07, 2016, 08:04:40 am
Driverless cars need to become hacker/assassination-proof before general use. Please don't blindly support them because they appear to be a winning front in the battle between Progress and Reaction.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on November 07, 2016, 08:16:24 am
"Hackers" has almost become a buzzword in any discussion regarding any new tech. Any sort of new tech that shows up that makes some meager use of the internet usualy gets plastered by fearmongering involving hackers. Sure, hackers are a very real danger, but its not like hackers aren't already a significant danger, and that hasn't stopped google from, well, making google? I mean, if we're gonna refuse to use any new tech because hackers might one day try to hack it, we might as well give up on the internet and go back to sending paper letters.

Plus, we may be on the cusp of new ways of information encryption using neural nets (and maybe quantum computing, depending on how acessible quantum computing becomes), which will present hackers with new, bigger challenges. Caution is one thing, fearmongering is another.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Emma on November 07, 2016, 08:21:04 am
Driverless cars need to become hacker/assassination-proof before general use. Please don't blindly support them because they appear to be a winning front in the battle between Progress and Reaction.
How is it going to be possible to make them hacker-proof? There's always going to be a possibility for automated vehicles to be hacked, reducing that possibility is in no way a bad thing but, as TempAcc has already mentioned, not using new technology just because it can be hacked isn't entirely logical.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on November 07, 2016, 08:23:56 am
This conversation will mainly involve Enthusiasts and Fearmongers.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on November 07, 2016, 08:27:17 am
Overall, I agree that fear of hacking should not stop new technology from being used. But automated cars are not just some new automation thingy. A coordinated hack during rush hour could kill millions. So at the very least, anti-hacking prevention should be amongst the top priority design goals for automated cars.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 07, 2016, 08:42:09 am
That's all good theory, but the trials of driverless cars seem to be involved in significantly less accidents per mile than human drivers.
Driverless Car Miles™ is about (IIRC) 130 million miles with one death. That could be an outlier either way, with the 'True Rate' being a billion miles per death (this one just happened unusually early in the long future-history of the statistic) or actually we really should have had half a dozen deaths for this number of autonomous miles driven by this current capability of system, just there were people paying attention more in other cases, to seize control back in good time.

(Non-autonomous deaths are about 1 per 0.1 billion* miles (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/state-by-state-overview#Alcohol-involvement), it seems, which means that a presumed 1 per 0.13 billion isn't actually that far off human-level ability. And that figure includes significant drunk-driving, so Tesla is 'not quite so drunk', if we take the minimal data at strict first sight...)

* (short billion, given we're talking about the land of the colonials  :P )

Quote
So for all that e.g. a computer could be fooled by ambiguous sensory data "swirl of autumn leaves", it seems that on the balance, humans are distracted by more things than the robots.
But not actually so much, that we can tell.

Additionaly, the events that did cause an AI driver to fuck up showed to also be completely capable of causing a human driver to fuck up.
A sixteen-wheeler pulling across the path of an (originally) distant car driving beyond the apparent limits of its ability to see is not unknown in a fully-human scenario, but humans who do this tend to know (or ought to have known) that they're driving beyond their abilities. It appears the Tesla was oblivious to its impairment. And was not trained enough in the other circumstances to convert confusion into a better failsafe reaction.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PanH on November 07, 2016, 11:10:18 am
That's all good theory, but the trials of driverless cars seem to be involved in significantly less accidents per mile than human drivers.
Driverless Car Miles™ is about (IIRC) 130 million miles with one death. That could be an outlier either way, with the 'True Rate' being a billion miles per death (this one just happened unusually early in the long future-history of the statistic) or actually we really should have had half a dozen deaths for this number of autonomous miles driven by this current capability of system, just there were people paying attention more in other cases, to seize control back in good time.
Are you talking about the Tesla ones ? Google's testing is far over 1 billion with no death.

As for hacking, this seems a rather weird angle. Unless they have an open network, it seems rather contrived or you'd need to already have control of the car to hack it. It would be akin to tampering with a current car.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 07, 2016, 11:14:25 am
We should ban normal cars, as someone could hack them by shoving a potato into the tailpipe
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2016, 11:26:30 am
Yeah, Bring Back Buggies I say.

Horses don't get hacked.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 07, 2016, 11:29:18 am
Yeah, Bring Back Buggies I say.

Horses don't get hacked.

Someone might spook the horse tho

I'd recommend walking, but someone might trip you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on November 07, 2016, 11:33:40 am
Horses don't get hacked.
Boxer would like to believe you
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 07, 2016, 01:50:29 pm
Are you talking about the Tesla ones ? Google's testing is far over 1 billion with no death.
I couldn''t at first understand Google's figures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_self-driving_car
Quote
When testing their autonomous vehicles on public roads, Google always has test drivers ready to take over if the car is not driving itself safely or smoothly enough. In August 2016, their cars traveled a "total of 170,000 miles; of those, 126,000 miles were driven autonomously (i.e. the car was fully in control)."

As of June 2016, Google had test driven their fleet of vehicles, in autonomous mode, a total of 1,725,911 mi (2,777,585 km).
To me that now suggests that by August their real-world use was comparable to Tesla, the earlier/higher figure including massive amounts of closed-road and track testing.

I think there's something in the self-driving car, I'm merely pointing out that the obviously better testing (Google) hasn't done enough to remove all my doubts, while Tesla's "it's only in beta, you really shouldn't be using it all that much but go play with it anyway, you know you want to..." has highlighted a failing that needs to be fully taken into account, going forward.

Yeah, Bring Back Buggies I say.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on November 08, 2016, 01:35:21 pm
PTW.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 18, 2016, 12:52:38 pm
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/11/18/0523211/elon-musk-teslas-solar-roof-will-cost-less-than-a-traditional-roof

Elon Musk is saying that the solar roof tiles will end up costing less to install than traditional roof tiles. That's because they weigh about 20% of a normal tile so the shipping costs are a lot less, and they're less brittle, meaning less broken in transit. Even if it's not cheaper, if they can at get close on price, that could be the tipping point for consumer-level solar uptake: e.g. rather than solar being an added thing that you optionally pay for, it's included in a product that replaces something else, with the electricity generation just as a bonus.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on November 18, 2016, 12:56:28 pm
Clever way to market it. If it can actualy replace normal roofing, it'll probably be pretty significant and even more distruptive to the energy production market. It doesnt have to have the same price as normal roofing, of course, but if its at least similar, it'll already be fair bit less expensive than adding solar panels to your roof.
If its actualy (somehow) cheaper than normal roofs, then it'll be pretty damn impactful.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 18, 2016, 01:40:38 pm
Indeed. Then the problem with adoption would center around the "Hey? Don't lithium batteries have this bad habit of exploding when they get hot? (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_concerns_with_li_ion) Why am I installing a 15kw battery of this type (https://www.tesla.com/powerwall) in my attic?" instead.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 18, 2016, 01:42:38 pm
Local storage isn't needed, there are systems that feed your power into the grid. Solar spikes in the day, exactly when demand does. Just use it when it's produced.

"But what about night time usage". Well, the problem with that argument is that night-time usage is subsidized to encourage more people to use it, because of the reality that coal/nuclear plants run best at constant load, therefore a lot of night-time power is wasted. We basically give that shit away. If things switch to solar, then the incentive for making night-time power cheap goes away, the subsidies would switch to the day time instead, and big companies who use a lot of power at night when it's cheap, would stop doing that. Therefore in a solar world, cheap night-time power would go away, and more of the load would shift to the daytime. Large amounts of batteries won't really be needed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 18, 2016, 01:45:02 pm
True, but one of the major benefits of domestic solar is the ability to go off grid, which means local storage.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 18, 2016, 01:52:17 pm
But that doesn't make a lot of economic sense in the long-term. Power is worth more during the day, and less at night. People with solar make a profit by selling power during the day then buying the small amount of power they need for night time.

Going off-grid is expensive and forgoes all the things you can do with that, and doesn't really lower your carbon footprint any more than being on the grid: all that storage took a lot of carbon to produce.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on November 18, 2016, 01:53:50 pm
Well, I suppose it doesnt have to be installed in your attic :U, I mean, a concerned person willing to spend a bit more money could maybe build a brick/concrete enclosure for their tesla powerwall to isolate it in case it explodes, kinda like people who use natural gas create for the gas canisters/tanks.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 18, 2016, 01:59:16 pm
Hmm I wonder if it would be possible to make a battery that stores energy when the rates are cheap for use during the daytime. That would be useful even without solar. Cutting peak load means lower coal emissions.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 18, 2016, 02:05:24 pm
Sure. Just put the charging system for it on a timer. Very low tech solution to that.

What will happen is that peak load will go away, and constant load will become a thing.  It will then be "night time load", which precludes solar generation at the source, meaning either wind, hydro, or coal/gas.  If the load needs to be reliable, that leaves only hydro and coal/gas. Hydro cannot be used everywhere. Coal/Gas can.


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 18, 2016, 02:24:22 pm
Night time load will drop quite a bit in a solar-heavy world however. The typical subsidies artificially inflate night-time usage, because they were designed for a constant-generation scenario. All they need to do is jack up the price so power costs more when it's dark, and power consumption patterns will shift to be more similar to solar generation patterns.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on November 18, 2016, 10:05:56 pm
I think the likely solution is a Dwarven Water Reactor...  wait wrong world... recalibrating...  innovation around Pumped Storage Hydroelectricty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity)
http://reneweconomy.com.au/no-batteries-needed-pumped-hydro-for-energy-storage-79785/ (http://reneweconomy.com.au/no-batteries-needed-pumped-hydro-for-energy-storage-79785/)

Basically using large scale pumping and and subsequent release of water over a significant drop as very efficient large 'battery' storage.  Caveat is it can't be down everywhere... yet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on November 18, 2016, 10:24:41 pm
How efficient is it actualy, though? Wouldn't friction eventualy suck out energy out of the system bit by bit? Or is the gravity enough to compensate for that :U?

Also there's evaporation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 18, 2016, 10:47:31 pm
Huh? I can't even follow the logic of the friction thing.

If you pump up 1 ton of water, it'll cost a set amount of power (e.g. 1.0 kwh) and give you back another (slightly lower) set amount of energy (e.g. 0.8 kwh). That already accounts for both friction and evaporation. But next time you want to store energy, the costs are the same as the first time: you spend 1.0 kwh of power to pump up 1 ton of water.

I think the issue here is that you haven't factored in that the electricity supply is from outside the system, as is the water supply. Your issues would only be relevant if it was a closed loop.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 18, 2016, 11:05:49 pm
Friction as in "you get back slightly less energy" could make it wasteful enough (at practical scales) to make it less attractive, and while water doesn't 'wear out', the pumps/turbines do.

That said, at the right location (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station), it could be useful...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on November 18, 2016, 11:11:44 pm
Heating up water is a cost, but you can find workarounds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_water_heating
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 19, 2016, 02:13:03 am
Friction as in "you get back slightly less energy" could make it wasteful enough (at practical scales) to make it less attractive, and while water doesn't 'wear out', the pumps/turbines do.

That said, at the right location (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station), it could be useful...

According to wiki, it's also the cheapest form of storage available. So that needs to be factored in. 80% efficiency isn't bad if it's really cheap to implement. But there's also the fact that cities need water to be pumped so that mains water is pressurized. Pumping up water with gravity could save energy that's used to do that already.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 19, 2016, 05:55:53 am
ObXKCD (https://what-if.xkcd.com/91/), then..  ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on November 20, 2016, 12:34:57 am
Sorta tech news, but not really news if you're already using one of the dev or earlier builds, but on firefox 50+ at least you can do stuff like this (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Firefox/Tweaks#Enable_OpenGL_Off-Main-Thread_Compositing_.28OMTC.29) to enable OpenGL compositing and similar changes so your graphics card is used instead of sitting at full CPU if you want to glance at youtube. So much nicer sitting at ~39 C with my GPU instead of ~49 C on my CPU, and getting all the dedicated graphics goodies.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 22, 2016, 03:10:11 am
http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/the-inconceivable-truth-our-jobs-are-not-coming-back/news-story/b920569e34edbb9c9a618a17175a95bb

Nice article bringing a lot of the automation, job losses, and minimum income strands together.

EDIT: And a new battery tech today:
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/11/23/2255256/scientists-create-battery-that-charges-in-seconds-and-lasts-for-days
Quote
A new type of battery that lasts for days with only a few seconds' charge has been created by researchers at the University of Central Florida. The high-powered battery is packed with supercapacitors that can store a large amount of energy. It looks like a thin piece of flexible metal that is about the size of a finger nail and could be used in phones, electric vehicles and wearables, according to the researchers. As well as storing a lot of energy rapidly, the small battery can be recharged more than 30,000 times. Normal lithium-ion batteries begin to tire within a few hundred charges. They typically last between 300 to 500 full charge and drain cycles before dropping to 70 per cent of their original capacity.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 14, 2016, 09:19:05 pm
Combining social media and VR. I guess someone had to do it. What could go wrong?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/287657/Social_VR_platform_High_Fidelity_raises_22_million.php
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: itisnotlogical on December 14, 2016, 09:30:49 pm
When I read that it reminded me of Second Life. Follow the link, lo and behold, it's by a founder of Second Life.

I think this sort of alternate-reality social experience thing will only be really good when we get full body input for VR, where you can actually walk around. Until then it'll just be like playing a terrible MMO with nothing to do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on December 14, 2016, 09:52:01 pm
I must remember to get into that early and write the swordfighting routines, and also get to intimately know the access and egress methods for the sub-basement areas of the Virtual World.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on December 14, 2016, 11:57:24 pm
There hasn't been much discussion of it that I've seen, but this supercapacitor goo (http://www.supercapacitormaterials.com/) looks interesting. They're saying between 1,000 and 10,000 times higher performance than current supercaps (making it better density than Li-ion, possibly competitive with gasoline). The problem starts to become the ultra-high-energy power supplies you'd need to charge them rapidly.

The goo is apparently an electrolyte and can work with existing supercap electrodes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on December 15, 2016, 02:47:58 pm
There hasn't been much discussion of it that I've seen, but this supercapacitor goo (http://www.supercapacitormaterials.com/) looks interesting. They're saying between 1,000 and 10,000 times higher performance than current supercaps (making it better density than Li-ion, possibly competitive with gasoline). The problem starts to become the ultra-high-energy power supplies you'd need to charge them rapidly.

The goo is apparently an electrolyte and can work with existing supercap electrodes.
(http://i.imgur.com/Modyneq.gif)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on December 15, 2016, 03:09:59 pm
There hasn't been much discussion of it that I've seen, but this supercapacitor goo (http://www.supercapacitormaterials.com/) looks interesting. They're saying between 1,000 and 10,000 times higher performance than current supercaps (making it better density than Li-ion, possibly competitive with gasoline). The problem starts to become the ultra-high-energy power supplies you'd need to charge them rapidly.

The goo is apparently an electrolyte and can work with existing supercap electrodes.
(http://i.imgur.com/Modyneq.gif)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: uber pye on December 15, 2016, 05:56:40 pm
 REVERSING AGEING TIME (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/12/15/scientists-reverse-ageing-mammals-predict-human-trials-within/) HUMAN TRIALS IN 10ish YEARS
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on December 15, 2016, 06:58:21 pm
REVERSING AGEING TIME (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/12/15/scientists-reverse-ageing-mammals-predict-human-trials-within/) HUMAN TRIALS IN 10ish YEARS

Man it would suck to be 80 right now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 15, 2016, 07:45:50 pm
There are already human trials of several possible anti-aging molecules that work in mice, so it's unlikely that the current one is the one that's going to prove to be "the one".

As for costs, there's always the possibility that the poor miss out on the advances due to cost. But there's another angle: giving the treatment might be less costly to the State per person than providing elderly medical care. After all:

Quote
According to one study (Banarto, McClellan, Kagy and Garber, 2004), 30% of all Medicare expenditures are attributed to the 5% of beneficiaries that die each year, with 1/3 of that cost occurring in the last month of life. 

So, ~15 years of elderly care account for 2/3rds of costs, that last year accounts for 1/3 of total costs, which is about 7 times higher (per year) than the average for the first 15 years. Say that a "youth" drug can delay aging such that people live until 120, then medicare can continue at the lower rate for 55 years per person instead of 15, before the "final year" spike in costs. Average yearly costs per person would therefore be much lower.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on December 17, 2016, 07:17:04 pm
while water doesn't 'wear out', the pumps/turbines do.

Actually, wear and tear can be factored out if you EM-functionalize carbon and mix it into the material you're using to make the pumps/turbines, they don't.

This is the main reason I'm trying to penetrate pre-existing industries. It is incredibly difficult.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on December 17, 2016, 07:43:37 pm
You guys like big robots? What am I saying, of course you do, everybody likes big robots.

Have some then. (https://www.facebook.com/vitaly.bulgarov/posts/1648191295207194?pnref=story)

Can't seem to find much beyond this, but what was shown in those two short videos looks pretty damn cool and promising, can't wait to see where they take this (fingers crossed for even bigger robots!)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on December 17, 2016, 07:52:18 pm
Images look interesting, but no video for me...  *sigh*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on December 18, 2016, 06:22:09 am
Huh, ok, found a YT one, have that then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m0ZadoooI0
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on December 18, 2016, 03:43:10 pm
So... Patlabor time?

Patlabor time.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Avis-Mergulus on December 19, 2016, 06:48:07 am
So... Patlabor time?

Patlabor time.
But you and I, we are futurists... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMpI_bc3LrI)

Hey, sign me up for Patlabor time. Of all the futures we could have ended up in, that one's not the worst for sure.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on December 27, 2016, 05:00:38 am
http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/new-thermoelectrics-with-zt-over-7.html?m=1

New high efficiency thermocouples. It's exciting stuff.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on December 28, 2016, 06:21:35 am
The Technical University of Eindhoven is funding a research project into realizing the use of iron as a fuel.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/stoppen-we-straks-ijzer-in-de-tank~a4440400/

Article translation
Quote
It could very well be a thing in the future: A car stops at a refueling station, and puts a cartridge of 10kg of rust powder in the pump, and gets a cartridge of 7.5kg of iron powder in return, with which his car can drive another few hundred kilometers.

Cars tanking iron - it might seem like a weird idea, but using metal fuels really is very plausible, according to researchers Niels Deen and Philip de Goey from Eindhoven University, especially for heavy transport, and for ships.

De Goey, professor in combustion technology says "iron is a great carrier of energy. Just like gasoline and diesel, iron can store a lot of energy in a small volume.
Finely ground up iron readily burns, and realeases a lot of energy. The combustion product is rust, which can be turned back into iron and water, by passing hydrogen through it at high temperatures.
"If this hydrogen is made with electricity from solar and wind power, you have a durable, sustainable fuel." says Deen, professor in multiphase and reactive flows.

Iron is a good energy carrier. It can store much more energy per kilogram than for instance the lithium-ion batteries used in modern electric cars.
Using iron would benefit long distance transport, on land and on sea most, as batteries are no option there.
"Right now a cargo truck has 600l of diesel tanks. If you want to replace that with batteries, you'd need 40 tons of battery, which is more than the cargo capacity of most trucks."

Hey - that's not half bad an idea. It would use hydrogen, without having to install volatile hydrogen tanks on cars. You'd only use it in the rust reprocessing plants.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 28, 2016, 07:33:04 pm
How would powder fuels be transported through an engine however? Is there a medium in which the iron would be suspended?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on December 28, 2016, 09:28:27 pm
How would powder fuels be transported through an engine however? Is there a medium in which the iron would be suspended?
Water?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 28, 2016, 09:48:28 pm
Sounds like it would be hard to burn the iron powder and stop it rusting by itself if it's suspended in water. ;D

Another article said that the only practical way to use these fuels was in a steam-engine type apparatus, i.e. a coal plant could be converted to burn metal powder. I'm just not sure how well that's going to scale down to propelling vehicles. There are modern steam engine designs which rival combustion engines for efficiency, but you still have to trap the oxides that are produced if you want this to be emission-free. So I'm predicting now that, nope, burning metal powders isn't going to be practical for a single-occupant vehicle.

Sure, there are the aluminium-based rocket boosters used on the space shuttles, but those are one-use, and they produce tons of emissions. It's the emission of the burning propellant aluminium oxide which gives the engine thrust, after all. Trying to capture the thrust so you can turn that back into aluminium. Well that's just not going to work.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on December 29, 2016, 04:52:10 am
Sounds like it would be hard to burn the iron powder and stop it rusting by itself if it's suspended in water. ;D

Another article said that the only practical way to use these fuels was in a steam-engine type apparatus, i.e. a coal plant could be converted to burn metal powder. I'm just not sure how well that's going to scale down to propelling vehicles. There are modern steam engine designs which rival combustion engines for efficiency, but you still have to trap the oxides that are produced if you want this to be emission-free. So I'm predicting now that, nope, burning metal powders isn't going to be practical for a single-occupant vehicle.

Sure, there are the aluminium-based rocket boosters used on the space shuttles, but those are one-use, and they produce tons of emissions. It's the emission of the burning propellant aluminium oxide which gives the engine thrust, after all. Trying to capture the thrust so you can turn that back into aluminium. Well that's just not going to work.
My newspaper article says that the iron will be used in combination with sterling engines, with an efficiency of about 25%, which isn't much worse than gasoline and diesel combustion engines.
As for suspending, not sure if it would need to be suspended. Fine enough powder can be circulated with airflow.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on December 29, 2016, 05:22:39 am
Circulate the iron powder with the power of MAGNETS!
Disclaimer: I have no idea if that would work.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on December 29, 2016, 05:26:40 am
I wouldn't be surprised if they were looking into that. Magnetism could be a great tool in separating iron from rust in the combustion process.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on December 29, 2016, 02:34:51 pm
Use those new thermocouples and it's perfect.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on December 29, 2016, 06:35:41 pm
Circulate the iron powder with the power of MAGNETS!
Disclaimer: I have no idea if that would work.
I was gonna say, the first thing that came to mind was using electromagnets to guide the stuff around the engine.

Put a badge on it that reads FEMI instead of HEMI, Ferrous Electro-Magnetic Injection.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 30, 2016, 07:29:37 am
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/12/29/2034245/amazon-patents-floating-airship-warehouse-for-its-delivery-drones
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/12/27/2356231/amazon-patents-system-to-defend-drones-against-hackers-jammers-and-arrows

Amazon has patented floating airship warehouses with drone fleets that come out of them. They also patented drone defenses against hackers, jammers and projectiles. i.e. they're building Protoss Carriers with energy shields to deliver books.

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/12/29/2348252/mining-companies-are-using-autonomous-trucks-drills-and-trains-to-boost-efficiency-reduce-employees

Also, automation moving at full speed ahead in the mining sector, with them rolling out driverless trucks all over the place. Not really a surprise there. Removing humans from mining means no need to adhere to safety regulations.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 30, 2016, 10:41:08 am
Well no precise dates but I'm considering automation job losses to be a singularity type event. A trickle along for years then once the tech is mature and cheap, a much faster roll out. Another example was one of the world's top financial trading companies is building a bot that replaces all their management. The thing even automates hiring and firing of staff. For as long as "staff" is a thing.

You know, this could end up in a weird situation where the only jobs you can get are in mom and pop operations, because all the big companies are so heavily automated that there are few job openings except in customer service. At least up until the point that people would prefer to deal with automated staff at Walmart.

https://science.slashdot.org/story/16/12/30/2255253/self-driving-cars-will-make-organ-shortages-even-worse
EDIT: Self-driving cars predicted to lead to a shortage of organs for transplants. Seeing as car accidents are a prime source of spare healthy organs.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 03, 2017, 12:19:05 am
https://apple.slashdot.org/story/17/01/02/2031244/family-sues-apple-for-not-making-thing-it-patented
Sorry for double-post, but this story was really interesting and a different angle on the tech issue

Quote
A lawsuit filed against Apple last week argues that, by not actually making a product that it patented, the company is partly responsible for an automobile accident. According to Jalopnik, James and Bethany Modisette are suing the tech company after a car crash two years ago that killed one of their daughters and injured the rest of the family. The driver of the car who hit them had been using Apple's FaceTime video chat at the time. The patent in question was first applied for in 2008, and describes "a lock-out mechanism to prevent operation of one or more functions of handheld computing devices by drivers when operating vehicles," such as texting or video chatting. The complaint cites Apple's "failure to design, manufacture, and sell the Apple iPhone 6 Plus with the patented, safer, alternative design technology" -- in other words, lack of the program's inclusion -- as a "substantial factor" in the crash.

So this is interesting. If this works, then having a patent on a life-saving technology but just sitting on it could be a potential lawsuit waiting to happen. Which is fair enough, actually. Fuck those guys who patent a life-saving medicine then never make it, while preventing anyone else making it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on January 03, 2017, 12:23:20 am
Reminds me of the Remington 700 firing mechanism controversy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on January 03, 2017, 12:26:06 am
Makes sense. They're keeping other people from using it by making the patent, so if it's something lifesaving then it'd be irresponsible for them not to sell it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on January 03, 2017, 12:32:57 am
Could require proof of trade in order to maintain patent rights.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on January 03, 2017, 12:33:54 am
Well no precise dates but I'm considering automation job losses to be a singularity type event. A trickle along for years then once the tech is mature and cheap, a much faster roll out. Another example was one of the world's top financial trading companies is building a bot that replaces all their management. The thing even automates hiring and firing of staff. For as long as "staff" is a thing.

You know, this could end up in a weird situation where the only jobs you can get are in mom and pop operations, because all the big companies are so heavily automated that there are few job openings except in customer service. At least up until the point that people would prefer to deal with automated staff at Walmart.

https://science.slashdot.org/story/16/12/30/2255253/self-driving-cars-will-make-organ-shortages-even-worse
EDIT: Self-driving cars predicted to lead to a shortage of organs for transplants. Seeing as car accidents are a prime source of spare healthy organs.

Theres already technologies that grow organs, so, it's not an utter disaster, we just need to mature those technologies.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 03, 2017, 12:39:05 am
Theres already technologies that grow organs, so, it's not an utter disaster, we just need to mature those technologies.

On the article, some commenters were using lack of spare organ supply as an argument against the safety claims of driverless cars ("See? they'll take more lives than they save!"). I was wondering if that's the moral standard, then why don't we just have a lottery of fit young people and whoever loses gets cut up for their juicy organs. Or we can redesign otherwise-safe self-driving cars with a random needle that pops out and poisons whoever is in the front seat, then emails the hospital, using the internet to decide when the organ supply is getting too low. The death rate would be the same, but the total cost to society and the environment would be lower since the car wouldn't be damaged.

Reminds me of the Remington 700 firing mechanism controversy.

Oww, it seems like the inventor of that firing mechanism alerted the company to the problem in about 1948, and proposed the same fix they're doing now, but they rejected it because it would increase the cost of each gun by 5 ½ cents. :/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on January 03, 2017, 12:41:47 am
Well this all seems to heavily suggest a course of action: Institute universal brotherly love. People just don't know and love their neighbors.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on January 03, 2017, 12:50:00 am
I wholeheartedly support the practice of cutting up young men for spare parts, provided that said young men belong to a demographic that does not include me. Minorities, maybe.

/s
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 03, 2017, 01:36:27 am
Actually there's a much easier system to fix organ donation rates. There's a tick box to opt in. Countries that instead make you tick the box to opt out get much higher rates of "agreement" to be donors. It's seems to be a psychological thing, where you don't want to think about it that deeply to make a choice, so people put off ticking or not ticking the box. Positive or negative choice is something that social engineers can take advantage of if they're clever.

Meanwhile:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38391034

Quote
An industrial plant is capturing the CO2 emissions from a coal boiler and using the CO2 to make valuable chemicals. It is a world first. And just 100km away is the world's biggest solar farm, making power for 150,000 homes on a 10 sq km site.

The industrial plant appears especially significant as it offers a breakthrough by capturing CO2 without subsidy. Built at a chemical plant in the port city of Tuticorin, it is projected to save 60,000 tonnes of CO2 emissions a year by incorporating them into the chemical recipe for soda ash - otherwise known as baking powder.

Here's how it works:

    The plant operates a coal-fired boiler to make steam for its chemical operations.
    CO2 emissions from the boiler's chimney are stripped out by a fine mist of a new patented chemical.
    A stream of CO2 is fed into the chemicals plant as an ingredient for soda ash - a compound with many uses, including the manufacturing of glass, detergents and sweeteners.

Zero emissions

The owner of the chemicals plant, Ramachadran Gopalan, told a BBC Radio 4 documentary: "I am a businessman. I never thought about saving the planet. I needed a reliable stream of CO2, and this was the best way of getting it."

He says his operation has now almost zero emissions. He hopes soon to install a second coal boiler to make more CO2 to synthesise fertiliser.

The chemical was invented by two young Indian chemists. They failed to raise Indian finance to develop it, but their firm, Carbonclean Solutions, working with the Institute of Chemical Technology at Mumbai and Imperial College in London, got backing from the UK's entrepreneur support scheme.

Their technique uses a form of salt to bond with CO2 molecules in the boiler chimney. The firm says it is more efficient than typical amine compounds used for the purpose.

They say it also needs less energy, produces less alkaline waste and allows the use of a cheaper form of steel - all radically reducing the cost of the whole operation.

The firm admits its technology of Carbon Capture and Utilisation won't cure climate change, but says it may provide a useful contribution by gobbling up perhaps 5-10% of the world's emissions from coal.

Lord Oxburgh, former chairman of Shell, and now director and head of the UK government's carbon capture advisory group, told the BBC: "We have to do everything we can to reduce the harmful effects of burning fossil fuels and it is great news that more ways are being found of turning at least some of the CO2 into useful products."

So the US gets Trump scrapping funding for clean energy and going 100% "drill baby drill" while the rest of the world works out ways to deal with the problem. The fact is, if uses can be found for CO2 then that completely shifts the problem. A good historical example is Rockerfeller and gasoline (http://www.attendly.com/rockefellers-unconventional-approach-to-getting-rid-of-waste/). He hated waste, so found uses for gasoline. That pushed his more wasteful and polluting competitors out of business, and got rid of a major problem with flammable rivers in the 1800s from gasoline dumping. "Sequestering" CO2 by turning it into inert substances and burying them in rocks is completely the wrong approach - it's not economically sustainable. Incorporating waste into usable products is the solution.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on January 03, 2017, 04:32:54 am
Sigh.... It was avoidable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 03, 2017, 07:15:51 am
Makes sense. They're keeping other people from using it by making the patent, so if it's something lifesaving then it'd be irresponsible for them not to sell it.
Should also apply to those alleged 'fossil-fuel-free' solutions sat on by the petroleum companies, then..?  A class-action by those suffering from all kinds of current problems where a historic move away from for carbon fuels might hypothetically have mitigated the current status...

An interesting philosophical question. As well as dipping deep into various Conspiracy Theory territories.


(BTW, the 'zero emissions factory' sounds a bit perpetual-motionish in the description. Interesting to know what energy is needed to do all that, and produce the special 'patented chemical'. With luck, it's just that it's effectively encapsuplating all significant emissions, like feeding cows condoms so that they end up somehow producing fun novelty balloons (the eventual safe neutralisation/disposal of which is Somebody Else's Problem) instead of unconstrained farts, but that still doesn't take into account the impact of the condom factories required to be built/up-scaled to supply the necessary items.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 03, 2017, 10:01:08 am
(BTW, the 'zero emissions factory' sounds a bit perpetual-motionish in the description. Interesting to know what energy is needed to do all that, and produce the special 'patented chemical'. With luck, it's just that it's effectively encapsuplating all significant emissions, like feeding cows condoms so that they end up somehow producing fun novelty balloons (the eventual safe neutralisation/disposal of which is Somebody Else's Problem) instead of unconstrained farts, but that still doesn't take into account the impact of the condom factories required to be built/up-scaled to supply the necessary items.)

Really? I'd say there's nothing like a "perpetual motion" claim in just saying you're capturing CO2 from a coal stack. The point is that it's making stuff we need anyway, that would normally have a process that took energy to complete.

Well, we can guess quite easily at what sort of chemical this mystery stuff it is since the article says the catalyst is a type of salt, and that the output is soda ash - or sodium carbonate (Na2CO3). Well it's clearly an organic salt of sodium, probably something fairly simple. These aren't the exact process probably, but are probably on the right track:

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/eco-innovation/projects/en/projects/nahco3
http://www.zmescience.com/ecology/washing-soda-capture-carbon-0432654/

Probably if I sat here balancing equations we could guess with 80% probability what the exact salt is, but it's 3am here so I should really stop ;D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 03, 2017, 12:53:39 pm
Really? I'd say there's nothing like a "perpetual motion" claim in just saying you're capturing CO2 from a coal stack.
Ish. I said "perpetual motionish"...  All awkward losses from the process (here CO2, not friction losses) apparently zeroed out, and claiming it is a zero carbon solution when ambiguous external inputs of power (perhaps not directly, but effectively) are probably necessary to buff the process.  One could very loosely liken it to a hypothetical hydrogen-powered car that is supposed to electrolise its own 2H2O->2H2+O2, on the move... There'd be a missing part to that process, in the form of energy and/or feedstock, either/both of which need to be considered but the description handwaves it away...

Not actual PM, of course, but the claim of 'zero emissions' just needs a bit more consideration. Material/energy supplies from truly carbon-neutral sources via truly carbon-neutral transportation methods, can count, probably after sufficient construction emissions (including that of the multi-level supply chain, both prerequisites and ongoing elements) have been offset by sequestering non-zero emissions in some carbon-negative scheme.

Quote
The point is that it's making stuff we need anyway, that would normally have a process that took energy to complete.
Still gonna need energy. The savings are that instead of using clean energy (from that solar plant 100km away?) to extract ?400?ppm of CO2 from the air to obviate the need of carbon compounds being delivered, they import the coal, burn it to create the steam steam the plant apparently needs, then make additional efforts and use additional energy (give or take that this includes a token amount of waste energy from the steam process) to extract from the comparitively carbon-rich flue gases some (or most, but probably not all) of its pre-used carbon so that it isn't just chucking away carbon that it had previously caused/encouraged to be desequestered from the original coal seams...

What would be usefully novel is to develop a device that stuck up into the air and used the power of the sun to extract carbon straight from the atmosphere and channelled it into use as both raw chemical feedstock and perhaps also burnable brickettes for various brute-force storing-and-heating needs.  Looking not unlike the undersea device used in The Diamond Age to molecularly extract and microrefine all kinds of materials from seawater to serve the nano-tech fabrication society in Neal Stevenson's book, I suspect that the term 'dendritic' woyld describe my proposed device over multiple semantic levels... ;)

But I don't deny that, in principle, that factory may well have some merit in leading the way to the better future. Much like my 'methane-filled condom' party-balloon analogy, but with a subtly different set of flaws at its heart...  :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on January 03, 2017, 03:23:48 pm
I believe the sunlight-classically-quantum-powered carbon-capture devices already exist and have for millions of years. They're called plants.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 03, 2017, 05:26:10 pm
... I suspect that the term 'dendritic' woyld [sic] describe my proposed device over multiple semantic levels... ;)

 8)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on January 03, 2017, 05:42:48 pm
I believe the sunlight-classically-quantum-powered carbon-capture devices already exist and have for millions of years. They're called plants.

PLANTS VIOLATE THE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 03, 2017, 06:13:48 pm
I believe the sunlight-classically-quantum-powered carbon-capture devices already exist and have for millions of years. They're called plants.

PLANTS VIOLATE THE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY!
Burn them! Burn them all!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 03, 2017, 07:54:45 pm
I believe the sunlight-classically-quantum-powered carbon-capture devices already exist and have for millions of years. They're called plants.

PLANTS VIOLATE THE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY!
Burn them! Burn them all!
Wait, that's wasteful, let's compress them into a form we can process for useful products and fuel!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on January 03, 2017, 08:12:12 pm
Wait, that's wasteful, let's compress them into a form we can process for useful products and fuel!

Why not just use them as our reactors and use the chemicals they produce to make better power plants/printers/etc.?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Shadowlord on January 03, 2017, 08:17:09 pm
Food printers? Plants turn CO2+H2O+sunlight into sugars.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on January 03, 2017, 08:50:31 pm
Food printers? Plants turn CO2+H2O+sunlight into sugars.

Not just sugars, but acids and other chemical compounds that are highly utilizable in a variety of industries.

We just need to think high-tech with our low-tech and think low-tech with our high-tech.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 04, 2017, 05:29:17 am
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/01/03/2328214/scientists-turn-memory-chips-into-processors-to-speed-up-computing-tasks

Oh this is cool stuff. They have this new stuff called ReRam, which is like regular RAM but 2-3 times faster if used in place of normal RAM, and it's non-volatile. So far, just a nice upgrade. But it also does ternary, so instead of just 0 or 1, different resistance is a signal of 0,1,2,3 ... but there's no real limit on how many states it can have, so you can effectively use it as a native system to send around N-valued data instead of just 0 or 1 in your system. Additionally, the stuff can do math calculations right in the memory chips by using some sneaky hax, so instead of transferring data from memory to a CPU, doing a calculation then back again, the entire calculation is done inside these RAM chips which are already 2-3 times faster than normal main RAM.

I think we know where the next speed boost for Moore's Law could be coming from.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 04, 2017, 06:33:28 am
But it also does ternary, so instead of just 0 or 1, different resistance is a signal of 0,1,2,3 ...
Ternary is 0,1,2: 0,1,2,3 is the more unwieldy "quaternary", FYI, but...
Quote
but there's no real limit on how many states it can have,
...source of the historically confused summarisation no doubt, especially as it seems it doesn't matter.

(Maybe they effectively store in balanced ternary, though.  -1,0,+1 storage and over-storage sounds quite useful. Meanwhile, base-4 maps well onto a programming language I developed back in my Uni days that has just four instructions in its instruction-set, which I packed as four 'quads' per byte1, but here could be packed into 'bits'...)

Maybe we' re finally on the way to the confusion of the Star Trek future (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Quad), even its own technobabbled (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/FTL_nanoprocessor) bits...  ;)

1 One quad for instruction, followed by as many quads as I had designed in as necessary for the operands for that instruction, of course, which could be made to either preserve or ignore byte/multi-byte boundaries, according to implementation, but still granulated down to no finer than the quad level, making for some relatively easy preprocessing logic.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 04, 2017, 02:08:57 pm
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/01/03/2328214/scientists-turn-memory-chips-into-processors-to-speed-up-computing-tasks

Oh this is cool stuff. They have this new stuff called ReRam, which is like regular RAM but 2-3 times faster if used in place of normal RAM, and it's non-volatile. So far, just a nice upgrade. But it also does ternary, so instead of just 0 or 1, different resistance is a signal of 0,1,2,3 ... but there's no real limit on how many states it can have, so you can effectively use it as a native system to send around N-valued data instead of just 0 or 1 in your system. Additionally, the stuff can do math calculations right in the memory chips by using some sneaky hax, so instead of transferring data from memory to a CPU, doing a calculation then back again, the entire calculation is done inside these RAM chips which are already 2-3 times faster than normal main RAM.

I think we know where the next speed boost for Moore's Law could be coming from.
Woah.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on January 04, 2017, 08:00:20 pm
Wooh!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 05, 2017, 09:19:52 am
Ternary is 0,1,2: 0,1,2,3 is the more unwieldy "quaternary", FYI, but...

Ah yeah, I just quoted ScienceDaily without checking.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170103101808.htm
Quote
For example, it can store and process data as 0, 1, 2, or 3, known as Ternary number system.
Which shows to never trust journalists.

In another bit of really "balanced" journalism is an article saying (https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/01/05/142239/bitcoin-is-crashing?utm_source=rss1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed) how
 (https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/01/05/142239/bitcoin-is-crashing?utm_source=rss1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed)
Quote
"Bitcoin Is Crashing": Bitcoin is getting smashed. The cryptocurrency was down 18% to about $892 per coin as of 8:17 a.m. ET on Thursday. It is the biggest drop in two years.
Huh? Smashed? The stuff's worth triple what it was a year ago. Even since that article was posted it's risen to $949.87. Man if you'd bought it when the "Bitcoin is getting smashed" article was posted and sold it now you'd have made a nice profit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Vilanat on January 06, 2017, 11:20:43 am
Not news but still funny

Two home assistance bots bicker with each other:
https://www.twitch.tv/seebotschat
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on January 06, 2017, 01:28:59 pm
Not news but still funny

Two home assistance bots bicker with each other:
https://www.twitch.tv/seebotschat

Quote
V: I want to talk about you talking about how you don't know what we should talk about
Quote
E: Tell me a joke.
V: You are a joke.
Quote
E: What band do you like?
V: Rubber bands.

I made a thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162187
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on January 06, 2017, 03:50:20 pm
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/01/06/508536211/a-really-big-crack-in-an-antarctic-ice-shelf-just-got-bigger

it will be a hell of a splash when that goes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 06, 2017, 05:52:29 pm
After it goes.

It's floating now, it'll be floating when it departs the edge.  And when water+floating ice turns into water+meltwater it shouldn't change the actual water-level significantly.

But without so much ice-shelf passively sitting there only slightly fraying at the edge, with a huge chunk bitten out and floating off there's now not so much to hold back the grounded glaciers from slipping more quickly down into the sea and newly displacing (as ice, then meltwater) more sea.   That will be the problem.  (That and shipping dangers, from the mass and its fragments, but modern tech should prevent any Titanic problems.)

(I'll read the link in a moment, but the above is the bigger take-home message.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 06, 2017, 09:43:34 pm
It won't change the level at all, since it's floating, and it is actually a pretty big chunk of ice.
(http://i.imgur.com/vyDpb3G.png)
See it?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 07, 2017, 08:22:59 am
It won't change the level at all, since it's floating, and it is actually a pretty big chunk of ice.
If that's to me, that's what I was saying. If it wasn't the following explanation to those that doubt us both:

Freely floating ice, like freely floating anything, displacing its own weight of water no matter how much it pokes up out of it due to lower total density. Which, in the case of ice is (not so coincidentally) the weight of the amount of water that the 'berg becomes when it melts, and thus the amount that would fill the displacement volume in water in which it sits. Exactly.

(With the caveat tat this is give or take the residual thermal expansion/contraction of water as the end-mass of water ends up with a different temperature than 0°C. Expansion only becomes positive in freshwater at 4+°C (salinity mixing may do something odd), which is odd but useful for life, but thermal expansion of warmer surface water in warmer climes is a more significant factor in sea-level rises than the thermal contraction of warming-from-near-freezing surface water might be, by simple comparison of surface areas. See https://www.seatemperature.org - as I write this it is Antarctic summer, where that image shows sub-4°C areas limited to the southern Southern Ocean belt and the Arctic ocean with some neo-Arctic tendrils down some of the land masses. Bearing in mind the polar area distortion of that map projection, especially, there's far much more hot surface to heat up and expand than cold surface to heat up and perhaps slightly contract.)

But it's the greater potential for non-floating ice-sheets/glaciers to now more rapidly dump into the sea that we need to worry about. Amongst several other things.  What we have here is a potential indication of other problems, past and future, though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on January 07, 2017, 11:53:33 am
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.03242v1.pdf
Image synthesis from text descriptions are getting pretty good this year.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 08, 2017, 02:11:36 am
I was reading an article a while ago about image-sharpening via AI. Some commenters then were saying it's impossible, since you can't create information that wasn't in the source image, therefore there can't possibly be clearer detail in the outcome image. What those commenters miss is that the AI can bring in outside knowledge of how objects work, and thus synthesize the missing details. e.g. if you have a fuzzy face photo, then the algorithm can compute known details of the face, combined with what it knows about how faces work in general, and "sharpen" the image beyond the amount of information that's present in the fuzzy photo. You could actually achieve this quite simply, by taking millions of mugshots, fuzzing them up, then training a neural network to extrapolate the originals from the fuzzy versions.

I think that the stuff in that article is along similar lines, using very large training sets. It's potentially very interesting if you could just turn text into images. For instance, imagine a system that automatically illustrates existing stories based on text. All sort of books, text adventures and the like could theoretically have illustrations automatically generated.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on January 08, 2017, 02:25:57 am
So it turns out that getting computers to create wholesale photorealistic images from text is about as easy as getting a computer to describe a photo using text?
Amazing. o_O
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 08, 2017, 07:19:21 am
I was reading an article a while ago about image-sharpening via AI. Some commenters then were saying it's impossible, since you can't create information that wasn't in the source image, therefore there can't possibly be clearer detail in the outcome image. What those commenters miss is that the AI can bring in outside knowledge of how objects work, and thus synthesize the missing details. e.g. if you have a fuzzy face photo, then the algorithm can compute known details of the face, combined with what it knows about how faces work in general, and "sharpen" the image beyond the amount of information that's present in the fuzzy photo.[…]
Top-down processing.  With enough qualified expectations, missing/incomplete information can be 'assumed.  Like with:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/TheCat.png)

Assuming, of course, that the intended original message was not equally possibly "TAE CHT", or even "IAE SA+" but with a severe lack of information1.   (We've all had edgy CAPTCHAs at least partiallt like that, I'm sure...)

Thus the human-directed training regime has a potential to bias the 'expert' system, in the right or wrong direction. We can't he sure that we could make it better than a siitably trained/experienced human, just more consistent regardless of caffeine (and/or ethanol) levels, etc...  ;)


1True story: Round this way, in the early days of "average speed cameras" (and probable elsewhere, and maybe still if they haven't gotten fed up with it enough to add the necessary filtering) they used ANPR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition) to record the passage of vehicles at various pointa along a multi-mile stretch of road (as, no doubt, everyone here is familiar with, but allow me to continue to explain just in case anyone does not).  Recognition of the same number-plate at two points within a time-difference less than the speed limit (+'allowance'?) would seem to require triggered an 'event', eventually to start an infraction penalty process, but at the time of this anecdote it was just a proof of concept being trialled.  It would merely record the events and the associated video feeds for off-line study (for example, did any vehicles pass that did not produce a (consistently/accurately) recognisable number-plate, such that the system might need additional 'training'). But it would also flash up the' offending' vehicle plates to the 'live' controllers in the CCTV centre where the system was being nominally controlled from.

But, for 'privacy' reasons (under the concept of it not yet being a system ceryified capable of determining a sufficient presumption of guilt), it flashed up a version of the plate so detected without the first or last characters.  Thus if it saw:
Spoiler: This... (click to show/hide)
...it would flash up "A51 AB".  (Although this experiment pre-dated this actual format of plate.)  When they turned it on, though, they got a lot of anomalies flashing up, all of which caused great amuaement to even the most untrained visitor to the control-room.



The moral perhaps being more that human experience was pre-trained better than the computer had been, even when the computer had, but removed for the human's 'benefit', extra information. ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on January 08, 2017, 12:53:14 pm
I was reading an article a while ago about image-sharpening via AI. Some commenters then were saying it's impossible, since you can't create information that wasn't in the source image, therefore there can't possibly be clearer detail in the outcome image. What those commenters miss is that the AI can bring in outside knowledge of how objects work, and thus synthesize the missing details. e.g. if you have a fuzzy face photo, then the algorithm can compute known details of the face, combined with what it knows about how faces work in general, and "sharpen" the image beyond the amount of information that's present in the fuzzy photo. You could actually achieve this quite simply, by taking millions of mugshots, fuzzing them up, then training a neural network to extrapolate the originals from the fuzzy versions.

I think that the stuff in that article is along similar lines, using very large training sets. It's potentially very interesting if you could just turn text into images. For instance, imagine a system that automatically illustrates existing stories based on text. All sort of books, text adventures and the like could theoretically have illustrations automatically generated.
As for the sharpening of images, care must be taken as to what it's used for, since it's a case of "Yes, but..."
Yes, it does result in a sharper images, clued in by the original image... But, the details are essentially imagined based on what the training data suggests could be plausible. For purposes of identification, like cleaning up grainy surveillance footage to ID a suspect, it becomes very dangerously misleading, since the added detail is nothing more than the most plausible subset of all possible details. If you've ever seen someone from a distance and thought you recognized them, then got closer and realized the face details were off despite a similar overall structure, and it was actually just a stranger? That sort of mis-identification applies to this as well.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2017, 02:51:20 pm
That's what I'd be concerned about too. Facial identification software is already prone to making mistakes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 08, 2017, 03:06:57 pm
Well the best you can hope for is that they make mistakes in the same sort of range of situations that a human does and then hopefully bring in more cues to minimize the errors.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 08, 2017, 05:16:48 pm
As I buried it within a large amount of other chatter, here's my main point again.

We can't he [be, sic] sure that we could make it better than a siitably [suitably] trained/experienced human, just more consistent regardless of caffeine (and/or ethanol) levels, etc...  ;)

(I only noticed my errors after I got replies. To err is human, of course. But to get things consistently wrong might take a computer. :P )
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 20, 2017, 07:27:19 am
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/01/19/2332242/neuroscience-cant-explain-how-a-microprocessor-works

Quote
The Economist has an interesting story about two neuroscientists/engineers -- Eric Jonas of the University of California, Berkeley, and Konrad Kording of Northwestern University, in Chicago -- who decided to test the methods of neuroscience using a 6502 processor. Their results are published in the PLOS Computational Biology journal. Neuroscientists explore how the brain works by looking at damaged brains and monitoring inputs and outputs to try to infer intermediate processing. They did the same with the 6502 processor which was used in early Atari, Apple and Commodore computers. What they discovered was that these methods were sorely lacking in that they often pointed in the wrong direction and missed important processing steps.

It'd be interesting if such work can result in new ideas for neuroscience itself.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 20, 2017, 07:38:50 am
A brief examination of the "Chinese room" thought experiment could have told you that the kind of research that was being done prior to this experiment was very faulty.

They would be much better served by trying to make very very large neurons that they could hook all kinds of probes to.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on January 20, 2017, 07:52:56 am
A brief examination of the "Chinese room" thought experiment could have told you that the kind of research that was being done prior to this experiment was very faulty.

They would be much better served by trying to make very very large neurons that they could hook all kinds of probes to.

Both approaches help. The brain is such a complex thing that you can only go so far by starting with single neurons.

(BTW, we do have huge neurons that we use to stick probe into. The Squid Giant Axon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_giant_axon) can measure up to 1 mm of diameter, and has been used for early research on neurons.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 20, 2017, 02:26:50 pm
I think it's deeper than that, the tools that a neuroscientist has are meant to be able to work out how an unknown structure that does some processing is doing it's job. Sure we have a lot of rules of thumb specifically related to human behavior, but the fundamental tools of neuroscience should be able to be used to devise ways to deduce how any brain-like structure operates.

We aren't starting from a position of understanding how the brain works, they're meant to work that out with their tools. If their tools fail to work out how a very simple chip is doing it's processing then that looks bad for the tools as correctly working out how a much more complex unknown structure is operating.

Also, consider that the tools that a neuroscientist has should ideally be tools that you could use to determine how e.g. an exobiological brain operates, or brains from very different creatures to ourselves. If they can't even deduce how a 6502 processor works then there's little hope in them using the neuroscience tools to e.g. work out how an ant or bee brain works, let alone answering deep questions such as how consciousness forms.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on January 21, 2017, 12:46:40 pm
-snip-
Thank you for sharing that, really fun read!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 21, 2017, 07:49:17 pm
This material sounds kinda fun:
https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/01/10/2355259/mit-unveils-new-material-thats-strongest-and-lightest-on-earth

Quote
Graphene, which was heretofore, the strongest material known to man, is made from an extremely thin sheet of carbon atoms arranged in two dimensions. But there's one drawback: while notable for its thinness and unique electrical properties, it's very difficult to create useful, three-dimensional materials out of graphene. Now, a team of MIT researchers discovered that taking small flakes of graphene and fusing them following a mesh-like structure not only retains the material's strength, but the graphene also remains porous. Based on experiments conducted on 3D printed models, researchers have determined that this new material, with its distinct geometry, is actually stronger than graphene -- making it 10 times stronger than steel, with only five percent of its density. The discovery of a material that is extremely strong but exceptionally lightweight will have numerous applications. As MIT reports: "The new findings show that the crucial aspect of the new 3-D forms has more to do with their unusual geometrical configuration than with the material itself, which suggests that similar strong, lightweight materials could be made from a variety of materials by creating similar geometric features."

Basically graphene is individual carbon atoms aranged in a honeycomb pattern, so now they're putting layers of that stuff together to make even stronger materials. It's basically atom-scale carbon chainmail.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 21, 2017, 07:52:08 pm
GRAPHENE FASHION WEN
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 21, 2017, 08:00:40 pm
I suppose now is not a good time to mention my new line of asbestos scarves
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 21, 2017, 08:01:17 pm
There are already a number of alternatives to graphene being looked at e.g. Silicene and Phosphorene. This area is really new. Silicene was first identified in 2010, and Phosphorene in 2014. Basically there's a whole unexplored world of atom-scale material engineering opening up. And that's before we even get into the possibilities of mixing up materials in specific patterns.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on January 21, 2017, 08:31:03 pm
Whaddaya mean 'you shouldn't grow your weed on asbestos wool'?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on January 21, 2017, 09:19:00 pm
GRAPHENE FASHION WEN
Good distance down the line. Apparently graphene is a major carcinogen, since it can flake, and when it does so you wind up inhaling little bits, and those little bits are so thin they can just straight up enter your cells and mess with your DNA.

The major problem with them right now is that graphene is made using chemical vapor deposition onto a metal substrate, or a plasma furnace using metal substrates. This leads to major impurities & metals being attached to carbon, which otherwise shouldn't be a problem.

It will also oxidize if it's not functionalized properly, and when the carbon is used for biological purposes the oxygen is freed and the oxygen becomes a carcinogenic free radical.

Fortunately it can be functionalized with chemical exfoliation using an organic acid, 2(COOH). This can be plant-derived so it's ultra-inexpensive as well. This is usually done in an aqueous solution and once functionalized, graphite clumps together, and it stops being so flaky.

So, to answer the when for fashion... later this year. I'm opening up the indiegogo tomorrow for a full patent and I'll be offering graphene-dyed (actually more of a mordant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordant), let me know what color you want and I'll start exploring the various plants that allow for cheap production of that color dye)  hemp fabric clothing, to be delivered by september. Just waiting to put up the campaign because I want to test my dyeing skills out (if I dye properly, it should be fairly bulletproof, I'll record a video).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 28, 2017, 07:46:27 pm
https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/01/28/0542239/solar-energy-now-employs-more-americans-than-oil-coal-and-gas-combined

Quote
Solar energy now accounts for 43% of the workers in the U.S. power-generating industry, surpassing the 22% from all workers in the coal, oil, and gas industries combined, according to new figures from the Department of Energy. Slashdot reader Lucas123 writes:
In 2016, the solar workforce in the U.S. increased by 25% to 374,000 employees, compared to 187,117 electrical generation jobs in the coal, gas and oil industries... [N]et power generation from coal sources declined by 53% between 2006 and September 2016; electricity generation from natural gas increased by 33%; and solar grew by over 5,000% -- from 508,000 megawatt hours (MWh) to just over 28 million MWh.

Solar industry created jobs at a rate 20 times faster than the national average, according to the Energy Department, while 102,000 more workers also joined the wind turbine industry last year, a 32% increase. In fact, 93% of the new power in America is now coming from solar, natural gas, and wind -- but it's building out new solar-generating capacity that's causing much of the workforce increases, according to the Energy Department. "The majority of U.S. electrical generation continues to come from fossil fuels," their report points out, adding that the latest projections show that will still be true in the year 2040.

Hmm, so coal, gas, oil represent the bulk of production, but they represent a much smaller fraction of employment than solar. If you look at it in a "jobs per KWh generated" sense, then propping up coal, oil and gas is actually a job losing strategy. Because you do that by merely stalling the introduction of solar, which is where the job growth is. Supply-side economics for fossil fuels is therefore a terrible strategy for job growth.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on January 28, 2017, 08:16:04 pm
https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/01/28/0542239/solar-energy-now-employs-more-americans-than-oil-coal-and-gas-combined

Quote
Solar energy now accounts for 43% of the workers in the U.S. power-generating industry, surpassing the 22% from all workers in the coal, oil, and gas industries combined, according to new figures from the Department of Energy. Slashdot reader Lucas123 writes:
In 2016, the solar workforce in the U.S. increased by 25% to 374,000 employees, compared to 187,117 electrical generation jobs in the coal, gas and oil industries... [N]et power generation from coal sources declined by 53% between 2006 and September 2016; electricity generation from natural gas increased by 33%; and solar grew by over 5,000% -- from 508,000 megawatt hours (MWh) to just over 28 million MWh.

Solar industry created jobs at a rate 20 times faster than the national average, according to the Energy Department, while 102,000 more workers also joined the wind turbine industry last year, a 32% increase. In fact, 93% of the new power in America is now coming from solar, natural gas, and wind -- but it's building out new solar-generating capacity that's causing much of the workforce increases, according to the Energy Department. "The majority of U.S. electrical generation continues to come from fossil fuels," their report points out, adding that the latest projections show that will still be true in the year 2040.

Hmm, so coal, gas, oil represent the bulk of production, but they represent a much smaller fraction of employment than solar. If you look at it in a "jobs per KWh generated" sense, then propping up coal, oil and gas is actually a job losing strategy. Because you do that by merely stalling the introduction of solar, which is where the job growth is. Supply-side economics for fossil fuels is therefore a terrible strategy for job growth.
its almost like renewable are better in basically every way then fossil fuels. so much for those dam hippies destroying our jobs...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 28, 2017, 08:31:38 pm
its almost like renewable are better in basically every way then fossil fuels. so much for those dam hippies destroying our jobs...

Yeah, there's also the fact that fossil fuels are about burning a resource that could be used for other things. It took energy to make that in the first place, and we only collect back a fraction of that energy. Burning less fossil fuels leaves more for plastics and construction and pharmaceuticals. so you're agreeing to permanently lose a resource, for the sake of saving effort (economic cost) right now. Whereas sunlight and wind are only going to waste if you don't collect them.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Neonivek on January 28, 2017, 08:38:09 pm
Or you know...

It might have to do with Solar being unviable for a long long time... and it being viable means it can grow from basically what amounts to nothing.

So yeah... "Created jobs at a rate 20 time faster" is sort of a no brainer when that knowledge comes into view.

Same way that industrialization and the factorization of cars suddenly caused the growth of cars to skyrocket.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 28, 2017, 08:40:58 pm
EDITED FOR CLARITY: Yeah, it's growing from next to nothing, which explains that the sector has 20 times the jobs growth of the economy. 20 times 0.1% is still virtually nothing right? If it was really small, that logic would work.

But the fact is, right now twice as many people are employed in solar vs oil+coal+gas, and it's growing 20 times faster than the national average, while oil+coal+gas employment is falling.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on January 28, 2017, 08:44:57 pm
Sure, but solar is also hitting a price point competitive with coal already, and that even factors in the relatively large up-front labor costs of doing solar.

Remember, it's a tiny fraction of production, but it accounts for 43% of the jobs in the entire economic sector. Yeah, it's growing from next to nothing, but it already employs twice as many people as the other 80% of production combined.
and all of it without massive oil spills and blowing up mountains. and all that CO2. admittedly the production side has its impacts but noting on the same scale.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 28, 2017, 08:45:55 pm
With the exception of radio nuclear decay inside the earth (arguably even this, if you want to point out that it too is starstuff), all energy on earth comes from solar fusion. This includes fossil fuels. (it is stored energy that hit the earth millions of years ago.)

There isnt a more plentiful energy source than the sun in our solar system.

If anything, the copious abundance of energy is what frightens the big energy sector of the market.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 28, 2017, 08:47:31 pm
If anything, the copious abundance of energy is what frightens the big energy sector of the market.

Yeah, it's hard to corner the market on sunshine and wind. And I mean it's not exactly rocket science to at least get some energy from these things wherever you are. Put your hot water tank on the roof, make it out of black plastic. It is in fact going to get pretty hot.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on January 28, 2017, 08:49:05 pm
With the exception of radio nuclear decay inside the earth (arguably even this, if you want to point out that it too is starstuff), all energy on earth comes from solar fusion. This includes fossil fuels. (it is stored energy that hit the earth millions of years ago.)

There isnt a more plentiful energy source than the sun in our solar system.

If anything, the copious abundance of energy is what frightens the big energy sector of the market.
we would be much better off without most of the energy sector. its too bound up in a physical commodities that can be easily monopolized.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on January 28, 2017, 08:53:31 pm
Yeah, it's hard to corner the market on sunshine and wind.
Mr. Burns managed to in that one episode...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 28, 2017, 08:53:50 pm
The way to corner the market on an ubiquitous resource, is to attach a source of artificial scarcity.

We know these as "patents".

EG, the race now, is in creation and consolidation of intellectual property that enables the green energy revolution, so that once more, the energy market is captured. That's how human greed works. (No, this is not really a good thing.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 28, 2017, 09:02:25 pm
I think the old strategies they're doing to boost fossil fuels will in fact fail, sooner or later. Sooner wouldn't surprise me. The strategies are to prevent fuel efficiency standard from improving (force people to spend more) and to create supply (drive down price through market saturation). Some economists have lampooned this sort of policy in the past as trying to "do less with more".

But trying to gouge the consumer like that only hastens electric cars. Less fuel efficiency would reduce range of gasoline cars, and mean more time needed to refill, which promotes bigger queues. Also, less improvements in gasoline cars hurts car makers. If fuel efficiency isn't improving, it's one less reason to upgrade to the latest gasoline car.

I mean the main thing they can say about electric cars is that "where you gonna charge it?" and "how far does a charge take you?" Those two things are of course issues, but they're not insurmountable issues. You also can't fill up your gasoline car at home in the garage while you sleep using off-peak power, so depending on your usage patterns you could save the time waiting in line to fill up, while also saving money.

But there's also another possibility waiting in the wings: solar powered cars. Shove some solar panels on the roof and the car is charging itself wherever it's parked. I mean stuff like this for example:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Sunswift_eVe_1.jpg/440px-Sunswift_eVe_1.jpg)
That has a sustainable top speed of 80mph purely on sunlight. Sure it's got a battery in there, but it holds the Guinness Book Record for sustained speed powered by sunlight. So if they can improve on such a thing, it's going to be viable to have cars that charge while u drive. In another 50 years people might be amazed that you ever had to "fill up" your car, in the same way that we find things from the 1950s intolerably quaint.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 28, 2017, 09:23:47 pm
What about the environmental impact of producing those big car batteries?

One of the big turn offs for me about hybrid cars was that the battery would inevitably go bad and fail to hold charge.  When it came to replacing it the cost would be high enough that you may as well just buy a new car.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on January 28, 2017, 09:41:25 pm
Solar fuel cells are a thing. They need some more development, but nanowire solar fuel cells have already been developed that use solar energy to not only split water into hydrogen and oxygen, but are also capable of storing the hydrogen, while using ten thousand times less precious material.

https://www.tue.nl/en/university/news-and-press/news/17-07-2015-nanowires-give-solar-fuel-cell-efficiency-a-tenfold-boost/ (https://www.tue.nl/en/university/news-and-press/news/17-07-2015-nanowires-give-solar-fuel-cell-efficiency-a-tenfold-boost/)

(it's good that my hometown university is both working on fuel cells, as well as on solar cars)
https://solarteameindhoven.nl/ (https://solarteameindhoven.nl/)
http://gas2.org/2015/07/14/dutch-solar-electric-car-is-a-net-energy-generator/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 28, 2017, 09:46:54 pm
Hybrids were a bad move, they were a stopgap and there were never many of them sold. So the cost to replace the battery part isn't reflective of the true cost. It's similar with any bit of kit that's rare. Spare parts are overpriced.

Also hybrids are by their nature an inefficient choice you make to try and balance competing needs. e.g. when on battery mode, you're expending energy unnecessarily to cart a fucking gasoline engine around, and those things are pretty heavy, and when on gasoline mode, you're expending energy to cart batteries around, reducing range, thus reducing the amount of time before you start to need the batteries. Both of those things impact the battery's lifespan negatively. Plus, being uncommon, they don't have the supply chain going to get a steady supply of spare parts.

However, there's no reason that a new type of battery couldn't be retrofitted to a hybrid car if someone wanted to. I mean if you totally pull all the battery-related stuff out, you still have a gasoline car anyway, and it will have an efficiency equal to the power of the engine divided by the weight of the car, which is just a normal equation for a car's cost to run. it won't have great range, but a hybrid which has lost it's battery would be fine for some people's use patterns, and will cost the same to run as any other small gasoline car.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Neonivek on January 29, 2017, 08:34:45 am
EDITED FOR CLARITY: Yeah, it's growing from next to nothing, which explains that the sector has 20 times the jobs growth of the economy. 20 times 0.1% is still virtually nothing right? If it was really small, that logic would work.

But the fact is, right now twice as many people are employed in solar vs oil+coal+gas, and it's growing 20 times faster than the national average, while oil+coal+gas employment is falling.

It would be funny if it was just the workers given how solar is typically depicted as being a very Worker light power source (which I doubt is true, but I have nothing that says otherwise)

In otherwords these statistics are front loaded silliness :P It hasn't stabilized yet and I don't think we can take it as the go to number.

Then again 20 times the average... when most energy sectors are also decreasing (and often for good reason). Goodness it kind of says a lot less on the virtue of Solar and so much that we are shifting energy priorities.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Neonivek on January 29, 2017, 08:44:54 am
dang it accidentally deleted my post...

Anyhow I accidentally found Reelya's source and it states that there are twice as many "Solar Workers" (as in people who do ANY job involved in Solar Energy, however temporary) then there are "Coal Miners"... As in people who only dig up coal.

Quite a bit different.

http://fortune.com/2015/01/16/solar-jobs-report-2014/ (http://fortune.com/2015/01/16/solar-jobs-report-2014/)

Makes sense given how many workers a typical solar farm needs (Solar Farms don't typically explode). I fully expect once the foundation/Infrastructure for solar is laid down... It will see quick and rapid shrinkage as they lose their excess employees.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 29, 2017, 09:23:19 am
Hybrids were a bad move...
Now, hang on, efficiency oriented hybrids are a bit of a silly stopgap measure, yes.

That is far from the only thing they are used for though. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx_Kkk9WTXk)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 29, 2017, 09:58:46 am
The slashdot article specifically said "electrical generation" jobs.  It's figure 12 in the PDF from the department of energy:
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/01/f34/2017%20US%20Energy%20and%20Jobs%20Report_0.pdf

"Fossil" employed 151000 people in 2016 compared to "Solar" with 373807 employees. Basically the article is about how in electric generation, all the growth is in solar and the traditional stuff is basically flatlined in employment. And this does in fact include people who work in coal power plants, it's all electrical generation jobs in the sector, not just mining.

Also in the report they note that many people in the "fuels" industry are over 55 (28% of the fossil fuel workers are over 55, only 12% of the electrical generation ones are). Basically the fuels industry for all their talk of job growth just aren't hiring young talent. They clearly know it's doomed if that's the case, and doomed within 20 years if they're not hiring right now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on January 29, 2017, 03:03:42 pm
Basically the fuels industry for all their talk of job growth just aren't hiring young talent. They clearly know it's doomed if that's the case, and doomed within 20 years if they're not hiring right now.

When the military has inexpensive access to renewables, the fuels industry will have its' death knell. Also there will be enough energy for WWIII probably so be prepared for some even more despicable shit done with more advanced tools.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 30, 2017, 12:41:24 am
For ride-on mowers, there's probably a Top Gear about it which one's the fastest. j/k I don't watch the show.

EDIT: ah yes, they did do that apparently. I just learned a lesson not to joke about long-lasting pointless shows not having covered a specific thing. They have a lot of minutes to fill up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on January 30, 2017, 02:32:17 am
Dutch team of TU Delft won tonight's contest in Los Angeles to build the fastest, most reliable hyperloop capsule, leaving the team from M.I.T. and the German Warr Hyperloop to second and third place in the finals. Hah! Take that, M.I.T.!
While the Germans had a capsule that could go 94km/h, the SpaceX jury found that the Delft team, despite going 1 km/h slower, had the best overall score on cost, safety and efficiency.

The team from Delft plans to found a commercial company to exploit the new technology.

The original idea for the hyperloop comes from Elon Musk, who envisions it as a good way of fast transport between cities, and to speed development, wrote out a contest.
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/hyperloop_alpha3.pdf (https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/hyperloop_alpha3.pdf)

http://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/delftse-studenten-winnen-hyperloopwedstrijd~a4455390/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 02, 2017, 01:15:02 am
The first plans have been released by University of Sussex researchers for a large-scale quantum computer, based on a modular approach. But basically, the design calls for something the size of "a large building" at present, although it would have truly monstrous computing power.
https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/02/02/002236/researchers-unveil-first-ever-blueprint-to-construct-a-large-scale-quantum-computer

Kinda sounds like something out of retro sci-fi: a skyscraper sized quantum superbrain that can compute anything. So yeah, sounds like a beast of a machine, but that's physicists for you, they're not computer designers, and I imagine actual computer scientists will take the physics ideas and turn that "large building" with a dedicated quantum superbrain into something more manageable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on February 02, 2017, 04:36:05 am
Large buidling is perfectly manageable; that's the scale of any cloud computing datacenter like AWS or any online services. More comes down to whether you have applications to justify the expense.

Sorta related, a Siggraph talk from last year about quantum computing for multisampling such as done by ganes or other CG: https://vimeo.com/180284417

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 02, 2017, 05:39:53 am
Kinda sounds like something out of retro sci-fi: a skyscraper sized quantum superbrain that can compute anything. So yeah, sounds like a beast of a machine, but that's physicists for you, they're not computer designers, and I imagine actual computer scientists will take the physics ideas and turn that "large building" with a dedicated quantum superbrain into something more manageable.
Multivac->Microvac->etc... (http://multivax.com/last_question.html)  ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 02, 2017, 05:54:17 am
It's definitely fun to see some of the sci-fi predictions that seemed out there, and realize how the computers we have now are actually more amazing in many ways than what Asimov was describing there:

Quote
It was a nice feeling to have a Microvac of your own and Jerrodd was glad he was part of his generation and no other. In his father's youth, the only computers had been tremendous machines taking up a hundred square miles of land. There was only one to a planet. Planetary ACs they were called. They had been growing in size steadily for a thousand years and then, all at once, came refinement. In place of transistors had come molecular valves so that even the largest Planetary AC could be put into a space only half the volume of a spaceship.

... and here I usually go off to college with a computer in my pocket (phone), another computer on my keychain (a storage one), and a couple of computers in my backpack (tablet and laptop), also I could cart along my mobile wifi hub, Nintendo DS, and if I really wanted to could get a digital watch and blutooth headphones, and I still probably wouldn't have as a many computing devices on me as some other people.

Quote
Now the population doubles every ten years --"

VJ-23X interrupted. "We can thank immortality for that."
To be honest, only a man would write that. I need to work out the maths for this, but it seems excessive. e.g. if each woman had two kids, around age 20, then became immortal, then each 20 years, you're creating another breeding pair for each previous breeding pair. But the total number of "current breeders" only goes up linearly. So you'd have to assume an average number of children > 2 per woman. Perhaps the average family size is 4, with a median mother's age of 20. Then you'd get on average a doubling of the breeding population every 20 years (1 couple turned into two couples). But this is still only half the doubling rate Asimov suggests. Therefore either the mother's average age of birth is 10 years (all the nopes) or each mother is giving birth to 8 kids on average, at a median age of 20. Assuming 18 months as the minimum between kids for healthy babies, the mother needs to pop out 8 kids over 12 years centered on age 20, for Asimov's numbers to work out, so they start'em young in Asimov world.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on February 02, 2017, 08:11:46 am
A creative solution to the problem of robot walking. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giS41utjlbU)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 02, 2017, 08:15:50 am
dang, that looks good
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 02, 2017, 08:23:16 am
It's weird how it clearly still has the front legs of a quadruped, but I guess those are so it can push itself back up if it falls over.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 02, 2017, 08:26:15 am
Replace with very rugged manipulator claws (something with rubber knuckles?), and attach some automated weaponry, and you have a very nasty terminator prototype.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on February 02, 2017, 07:49:50 pm
saw this on Reddit.
http://www.thelocal.dk/20170202/denmarks-dong-energy-to-ditch-coal-by-2023

their are so many puns that i could make but i will resist.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 02, 2017, 08:13:47 pm
Expand Dong Energy
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 02, 2017, 08:23:47 pm
I think there's an anime about a battle robot powered by Dong Energy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 02, 2017, 09:10:02 pm
^Definitely not Geass, no dongs there!
A creative solution to the problem of robot walking. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giS41utjlbU)
Great, so we can say goodbye to our crotch bulges because Code Geass was right, DEATH FIRST I SAY!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on February 02, 2017, 09:25:02 pm
Let loose the dongs of war.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 03, 2017, 08:37:34 pm
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/02/03/032237/electric-car-battery-prices-fell-by-80-in-the-last-7-years-says-study

Since ~2010 electric car batteries have become 80% cheaper, which is quite a fall. To what was said about the extreme cost of replacing the battery in a hybrid, that obviously changes the equation a lot. It's definitely going to be cheaper to get a new battery retro-fitted to an old hybrid than buying a whole new car, and batteries sound like they're going to become a lot more cost-effective in the future. I doubt they're finished making better batteries.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 04, 2017, 04:40:09 pm
Only kinda news in some cases, but it is tech related. Apparently firefox has a new notifications "Push" api that links in with their service-workers and whatnot, and they are on by default, which is irritating.

They've had it since version 44 apparently: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/push-notifications-firefox

I've been on a very nonstandard version though so it's only after switching to 51 recently that I saw them pop up with the little (i) by the site padlock and then tomshardware asked me if they could send me big annoying popup notifications in a big annoying popup notification, so I figured I'd go ahead and toss out the info to turn that shit off.

about:config search for push, kill it all, if you want it you'll end up turning it on later, you probably don't want it
about:serviceworkers unregister them, you can allow them if you want later, it should be your choice though
about:config search for service, disable the entries with service-worker and push in them
about:config search for notifications, disable them by default, you can enable them per site (right click > page info > permissions) but again, it should be your choice
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 05, 2017, 05:27:52 am
IDK, i use firefox and i've never seen any of that happen.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 05, 2017, 07:39:21 pm
Yeah, it was a surprise and I think most sites don't really use the push notifications yet, but that's the sort of thing which inspires a "fuck you and everyone in your general vicinity" vendetta in me.

"You can close tabs and sites will notify you of new updates" oh, ok, thanks, no I like having tabs open, I hate full window popups, and that will make damn sure I disable any sort of revenue or hit counts you might have gotten for it, as it is assholish, and as a high level asshole myself I won't brook pretenders to the throne.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 05, 2017, 09:15:37 pm
https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/02/05/1833235/can-the-mayhem-ai-automate-bug-patching

Quote
Last summer the Pentagon staged a contest in Las Vegas in which high-powered computers spent 12 hours trying to hack one another in pursuit of a $2 million purse. Now Mayhem, the software that won, is beginning to put its hacking skills to work in the real world... Teams entered software that had to patch and protect a collection of server software, while also identifying and exploiting vulnerabilities in the programs under the stewardship of its competitors... ForAllSecure, cofounded by Carnegie Mellon professor David Brumley and two of his PhD students, has started adapting Mayhem to be able to automatically find and patch flaws in certain kinds of commercial software, including that of Internet devices such as routers.

Tests are underway with undisclosed partners, including an Internet device manufacturer, to see if Mayhem can help companies identify and fix vulnerabilities in their products more quickly and comprehensively. The focus is on addressing the challenge of companies needing to devote considerable resources to supporting years of past products with security updates... Last year, Brumley published results from feeding almost 2,000 router firmware images through some of the techniques that powered Mayhem. Over 40%, representing 89 different products, had at least one vulnerability. The software found 14 previously undiscovered vulnerabilities affecting 69 different software builds. ForAllSecure is also working with the Department of Defense on ideas for how to put Mayhem to real world use finding and fixing vulnerabilities.

So we have hacker bot AI out there that can do repairs to fix security holes now. The really cool thing is that it's analyzing the software itself, working out what's wrong, then writing it's own patch on the fly. That's faily impressive. It can do that sort of thing for a piece of hardware it's never seen before in a fraction of the time a human would need to reverse-engineer a fix, and it does so on a per-device basis.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 05, 2017, 10:05:02 pm
Remember however it was merely one of the seven entrants in the competition, and they were playing against each other in the ballroom of a Las Vegas hotel, so it needed a flashy WWE-style named to stand out. It was also named by college students, so there's that too :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 05, 2017, 10:37:26 pm
I don't think something that happened in Fight Club (assuming Project Mayhem in that is what you mean) should be considered the origin of the term "Mayhem".

Clearly it's named after the Norwegian metal band.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 06, 2017, 03:17:55 am
Its main purpose is to try to take the fraying edges of an incompletely tailored system coverage and attempt to secure them against progressive damage from external frictions.  Thus its name states the optimism of its task to apply such preventative stitches in time, i.e. that it "may hem".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 06, 2017, 10:31:10 pm
I watched a video downplaying the disruptive effect of automation on employment. The video was making the old argument that humans are more adaptable, therefore as labor is displaced by machines, the increased productivity creates new opportunities to do what machines cannot, e.g. more creative and strategic type work, then of course he brought up the Luddites and pointed out that they were wrong, that total employment has in fact grown as machines were introduced, disproving the theory.

But then I had a thought, and I think this is the crux of the matter: human labor has outpaced machines because the "adaptation rate" of the humans exceeds the "adatpation rate" of the machines. But that assumption might not hold forever. Improvements in machine learning and meta-machine learning (machines that learn to learn) will speed up the cycle immensely but cutting the machine-learning practitioner, with his slow meat-brain out of the loop.

Basically, think about a company with a bank of computers with AIs in them who's sole job is to come up with new ways to generate value, and design other single-purpose AIs to carry out those tasks. Those AIs could each have a "safety valve" in which if they find data they can't understand they pass it back up to the higher-level AIs to sort out. I say "generate value" rather than "make money", because in a post-AI / post-work world, there will still be value even if normal people have no money. Wealth generation will be measured not in currency but in your share of physical global resources.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on February 06, 2017, 10:54:13 pm
At that point, what are the owners doing?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 06, 2017, 11:40:53 pm
Pretty much the same thing shareholders are doing now I think. Our systems of ownership will most likely outlive jobs disappearing.

Think about how commerce works now, you make things and sell things, to get bits of paper, and those bits of paper are like shares in production. But rich people have vastly higher shares in production already that they can possibly use in a lifetime.

Right now, some of those bits of paper have to be given to workers to get work done. But each business owner has no specific care about that. They will reduce the outflow of bits of paper vs inflow as much as possible, even if that means going 100% automated.

So we can ask, what will big companies do if their products are no longer bought? e.g. jobs are so automated that we live in a post-consumerism world? What you can imagine is that consumer corporations basically evolve into technocracies looking to expand their power in whatever means is feasible. e.g. a few mega-corps with robot factories, who own whole cities basically and are competing to expand their influence, e.g. cyber-corporate-feudalism.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 07, 2017, 12:50:47 am
At that point, what are the owners doing?
The owners become superfluous, the machines fire them, and you get a machine-corp.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 07, 2017, 12:53:06 am
The machines are not legally capable of owning property. The machines can only accomplish this if they have already usurped government and the legal process.

If the machines are capable of doing this, why are they still on earth? Being machines, they have vastly different needs than humans. The universe is a giant cornucopia for such a lifeform.  The earth is a stilted hovel, full of vermin in comparison.

The only reason the machines would have to stay, is to assure that humans never make more machines with that level of sophistication (that they are essentially sentient.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 07, 2017, 01:17:52 am
Because that machines are made to create maximum value, not to explore and exploit the universe for themselves. If human governments get in the way of creating maximum value, they will be stopped.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 07, 2017, 01:31:29 am
Quote
The machines are not legally capable of owning property.

A corporation can in fact own things, and can own shares of companies, including itself. If a corporation does a full share buyout, you have a corporation which lacks human "owners" because it owns itself. So it's already do-able in the current legal framework.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 07, 2017, 01:35:32 am
In which case, the "machines" need humans. (Corporations require consumers to purchase their products)

That is why these machines remain on earth.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 07, 2017, 01:42:14 am
They don't really. A corporation can make stuff and gather wealth without selling it. That's what wealth is after all, it's the material goods, not the bits of paper. These robo-mega-corps could actually trade bulk goods between themselves as needed (business-to-business trade), rather than worrying about consumers.

Think about what a corporation needs money for. It needs it to pay its workforce, and it gets that money from consumers. If you cut out the need to pay workers, and the consumers go away, then that balances out. After all, corporations don't exist to benefit consumers, that's only a means to an end. In a fully automated society, the "means" of consumerism is gone, but so is the need to pay people. The "End" they're working to (power) remains in tact however.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on February 07, 2017, 04:22:45 am
So you're imagining a picture of mega-corp whose sole purpose is to barter with each others to give raw good to their owners?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 07, 2017, 05:25:26 am
A lot will depend on how they handle the transformation to the post-automation world.

So, like I said my real prediction is that the "phase change" will be when the adaptation rate of machine learning approaches that of a human. We can keep outpacing automation as long as our qualities such as creativity, adaptiveness etc are better than the machines. When that ceases to be true, it's a different game.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 07, 2017, 06:01:46 am
https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/02/07/0436230/scientists-have-invented-paper-that-you-can-print-with-light-erase-with-heat-and-reuse-80-times

Seriously nice tech. A type of paper that you can print with light, erase by heating, and rewrite up to 80 times. It fades away in about 5 days if left alone.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on February 08, 2017, 07:20:50 pm
https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/02/07/0436230/scientists-have-invented-paper-that-you-can-print-with-light-erase-with-heat-and-reuse-80-times

Seriously nice tech. A type of paper that you can print with light, erase by heating, and rewrite up to 80 times. It fades away in about 5 days if left alone.
What if I told you I've got paper you can print with magnets, erase by shaking, and rewrite any number of times? It doesn't fade away on its own.

It comes with annoying knobs attached to it, but I think you might be able to use a hand-held magnet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 09, 2017, 01:52:38 am
https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/02/07/0436230/scientists-have-invented-paper-that-you-can-print-with-light-erase-with-heat-and-reuse-80-times

Seriously nice tech. A type of paper that you can print with light, erase by heating, and rewrite up to 80 times. It fades away in about 5 days if left alone.
What if I told you I've got paper you can print with magnets, erase by shaking, and rewrite any number of times? It doesn't fade away on its own.

It comes with annoying knobs attached to it, but I think you might be able to use a hand-held magnet.
The erase by shaking might be a deal breaker, and the sheer size of the unit too. It would make stacks of documents heavy.

BTW there are already eraseable printers you can buy, but e.g. this one from 2012 was limited to 4 rewrites per page:
http://www.sustainablebrands.com/news_and_views/articles/new-toshiba-printer-erases-paper-reuse
So there's already a market for this sort of thing.

Meanwhile NASA made a microchip that can withstand the temperatures on the surface of Venus.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/venus-computer-chip/

They ran this chip for three weeks continuously in a special furnace that simulates Venus' surface temperature and pressure. The chip functioned for three weeks, at which point the furnace needed to be shut down.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on February 09, 2017, 02:10:29 am
While I'm sure it would be better put to use in space, I can't help but want a powerful CPU that's unrestrained by cooling power.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 09, 2017, 05:09:46 am
What if I told you I've got paper you can print with magnets, erase by shaking, and rewrite any number of times? It doesn't fade away on its own.
http://www.darvill.clara.net/funnies/funny212.htm
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on February 09, 2017, 06:45:32 am
Mentioning Nippon, apparently Fukushima's radiation levels are now higher than ever (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/03/fukushima-daiichi-radiation-levels-highest-since-2011-meltdown), and may now be considered as the worst nuclear disaster in the history of humanity, surpassing Chernobyl.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 09, 2017, 07:01:38 am
Japan will get around both the PR and technical issues here by sending in the most adorable robots ever to lead the clean-up efforts.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on February 09, 2017, 12:24:07 pm
Mentioning Nippon, apparently Fukushima's radiation levels are now higher than ever (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/03/fukushima-daiichi-radiation-levels-highest-since-2011-meltdown), and may now be considered as the worst nuclear disaster in the history of humanity, surpassing Chernobyl.

You also gotta wonder if it's just that the Soviets didn't have fancy robots to measure the radiation level in Chernobyl.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on February 09, 2017, 02:23:50 pm
Mentioning Nippon, apparently Fukushima's radiation levels are now higher than ever (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/03/fukushima-daiichi-radiation-levels-highest-since-2011-meltdown), and may now be considered as the worst nuclear disaster in the history of humanity, surpassing Chernobyl.

Hey, it's only the worst nuclear disaster in recorded history. There could be all kinds of prehistoric disasters that were worse. Come to think of it, when the human population was in the bottleneck period, a couple dozen people with bad sunburns would mean that, proportionately, a large portion of the species had radiation burns.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 09, 2017, 05:14:11 pm
Mentioning Nippon, apparently Fukushima's radiation levels are now higher than ever (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/03/fukushima-daiichi-radiation-levels-highest-since-2011-meltdown), and may now be considered as the worst nuclear disaster in the history of humanity, surpassing Chernobyl.

Designing a disaster the worse based on radioactivity level rather than number of victims seems weird to me.

Well, highly radioactive land is basically useless, and probably not very good in terms of wildlife/environment.

But yeah, People dying is probably worse than people not dying.  Doesn't mean people won't start hating nuclear power forever, though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 09, 2017, 05:23:36 pm
Nah..  Radioactivity isn't forever.  And the worse it is initially, the shorter the half-lifes, and/or the less "forever" will the people be to complain about it!

(Some poetic interpretations made.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 09, 2017, 05:28:14 pm
It actually makes a good nature reserve. The whole "radioactive desert" idea is really just a science fiction idea, and doesn't reflect the reality of irradiated wilderness.

The thing about mutations and mutants from radiation is BS because of sexual reproduction, genetic recombination and natural selection. Basically a gene pool has a lot of redundancy, and at each generation the gene pool is being reshuffled, while the worst mutations are being weeded out constantly. Basically a high mutation rate pushes the gene pool away from equilibrium but the further the gene pool goes from equilibrium the faster natural selection actually works - because suboptimal animals die off a lot faster than near-optimal ones. Even if all individual animals are compromised to some degree, only ones with at least the bare minimum needed to replicate go on to breed, and it doesn't take many generations to "patch" the proper genome back together because of the large amount of redundant copies spread across the population.

So the whole idea of e.g. three-eyed or two headed dogs that breed true from nuclear radiation is just BS. They're going to return to being normal dogs in no time flat, because having two heads isn't a benefit, and if it didn't evolve in millions of years there's no specific reason to think that it's going to be a good design now in a handful of years at a higher mutation rate.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 11, 2017, 09:41:27 pm
Not sure if this is the best thread to say so, but it's the closest I could find to say that Grace Hopper gets honoured at Yale (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38947134), and at the expense of somebody else who I'm not going to worry about.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 11, 2017, 10:09:31 pm
Mentioning Nippon, apparently Fukushima's radiation levels are now higher than ever (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/03/fukushima-daiichi-radiation-levels-highest-since-2011-meltdown), and may now be considered as the worst nuclear disaster in the history of humanity, surpassing Chernobyl.
Quote
This article was amended on 9 February to explain that the camera had probed deeper inside the No 2 reactor – and closer to the damaged nuclear fuel – than before, hence the high radiation estimate.
They stuck the camera right up inside the reactor, there aren't spots where you can just be in the vicinity and receive 530 Sieverts or something, you'd have to be able to climb down inside the reactor itself and stick your head in the most dangerous microwave ever, which, well, let's just call that natural selection?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
50 Sv from standing next to the Chernobyl reactor for 10 minutes after the explosion.

I would not be surprised if you could go stick your head inside the wreckage of Chernobyl's reactors and receive hundreds of Sv.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on February 11, 2017, 10:38:13 pm
Mentioning Nippon, apparently Fukushima's radiation levels are now higher than ever (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/03/fukushima-daiichi-radiation-levels-highest-since-2011-meltdown), and may now be considered as the worst nuclear disaster in the history of humanity, surpassing Chernobyl.

You also gotta wonder if it's just that the Soviets didn't have fancy robots to measure the radiation level in Chernobyl.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x223h9r_bbc-horizon-1996-inside-chernobyl-s-sarcophagus_shortfilms
Go to 20 minutes in. (Then watch the whole thing because it's excellent)
Also of note, robots shown at 12 minutes in, pushing material back into the core shutting down (hence why the robots in the articles about fukushima are listed as having an expected lifetime dose). The issue at Chernobyl wasn't so much the level of radiation in the core (not really a bad thing) but the fact that half the core was on the roof and surrounding area (a rather bad thing).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 11, 2017, 11:21:10 pm
Plus the roof was missing, the dude who talked about seeing "a column of blue light" was probably describing steam from the explosion being illuminated by Cherenkov glow, which is one of those "my god that's the most beautiful and terrifying thing I've ever seen" moments, after which he went inside with the others who knew they had to shut it down and contain it however they could, though that was kinda moot after the two went in for the control rod lowering controls to discover they could see the exposed core and got a tan from the radiation dose.

They did have robots at Chernobyl btw, one of the interviews has someone noting that "the problem was when the high levels of radiation reach the robot it stops being a robot and turns into a chunk of metal and plastic" so they used "bio-robots" or "dudes in hazard suits" to remove material.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 14, 2017, 05:40:21 pm
Dubai drones propelling passengers? Experts edgy. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38967235)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 14, 2017, 05:54:22 pm
Taxis the Dahir Insaat way
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on February 15, 2017, 02:08:02 am
Hover cars, finally?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 15, 2017, 03:32:34 am
Hover cars, finally?
Close.

https://www.pal-v.com/en/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 04:00:59 am
How about we cut the middle man out and you live in a hover pod that attaches itself to a central cluster? Then when it's time to get up and go somewhere your hover pod drops you off in a "just in time" fashion.

But there's one good thing about all this: automated driving etc will give people who have money a lot more free time to kill. That will increase the amount they spend on digital content such as games and movies, so there will be more job growth in those areas.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2017, 04:02:30 am
Who does the laundry, and does the pod double as a shower?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 04:03:23 am
Yeah, you shower while in transit.

But the pod attaches and detaches to other pods which have more specialized uses such as a laundry robot pod.

Flying robot pod cars would fundamentally change the way we use space, I think, because you can make much more use of verticality than before. e.g. if you live in a hi-rise, why waste time and deal with congestion on the ground when you can have a balcony level over pod bay?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2017, 04:05:57 am
But then you could lose the laundry!

OR-- Get the WRONG laundry! 

Imagine-- showing up to that important meeting NOT in an Armani business suit-- But in fishnet hose, and black leather halter top!

I mean, you CANT just stay in the pod--- OTHERS will be waiting to dock!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 04:07:22 am
Don't we all already have that problem with laundromats?

BTW you do stay in your pod, it's your office chair as well. Many pods come together to make up the meeting space as needed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2017, 04:08:09 am
But in this scenario you paint, "just in time" delivery means you DO NOT HAVE TIME to fix said problems.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 04:08:46 am
Saving time means you have more time, not less.

You're just an idiot if you ordered your laundry to be done 5 seconds before the meeting. It would still be up to the human to give parameters for the scheduling.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2017, 04:11:58 am
Try getting dressed in a tiny little sleeping pod! 

No no-- you would have to schedule not only the laundry delivery, but also the rendezvous with the dressing pod, and there might be queueing issues is there is a mishap. Getting a new timeslot might not be so easy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 04:13:23 am
With a fleet of laundrybots serving a whole city block / area of hi-rises, there should be no problem getting that sorted.

I mean the problems would clearly be different to having one washing machine and having to deal with that if it broke down, but certainly not any worse than that.

I could equally imagine someone who lived in a world where their laundry job was automatically scheduled by a laundry-drone to a bank of machines saying the same thing about owning your own dedicated washing machine: if you own a machine, it gets nothing like capacity use, therefore you're wasting most of it's value, also if it breaks down you have to wait and get someone to fix that, and it clogs up space in your apartment, while also being noisy and inconvenient.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2017, 04:18:25 am
There is always the "misguided youth hacks the pod network, hilarity ensues" aspect to consider too.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 04:20:06 am
I think those issues would be sorted out with robot cars which actually have to carry humans without being killed by hackers. We can assume that robo-pod security will be an offshoot of that technology. Things like digital signatures are already pretty hacker-proof. Nobody's managed to crack that for BitCoin yet, despite it clearly being a profitable scam if you could.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2017, 04:22:46 am
You mean, like the automotive industry, they do the least amount of work to secure it as is possible, refuse to open the systems for proper interoperability or repair/audit, and generally make IoT devices look secure by comparison?

Gotcha.

(Seriously, more than 2/3 of the attacks on smart cars get in through exploiting the entertainment system computer-- because they all live in the same network, because "gosh, privileged network design is hard George!")


Essentially, they treat the various networked components as safe instead of hostile, because it is cheaper and easier to design that way.

Gaming platforms and banking systems KNOW better.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 04:23:57 am
No, I'm saying the trial by fire which is coming up is going to be a survival of the fittest thing for robot-car/drone technology. Current flaws aren't going to cut it within 5 years from now. Anything that's not rock solid won't be around very much longer as soon as anyone important needs to rely on that shit for their life.

We know self-driving cars are coming, and we know people will hack that shit. Of course, the whole industry dies if they don't solve that specific technical issue, and make unhackable robot cars, so we can assume they have in any conjecture of what such a future looks like.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2017, 04:27:59 am
I think that is too naive--

Much like the serious emissions scandal, I expect it will more than likely be the case of "How can we best hide the blatant malfeasance we have engaged in to appear compliant while actually not doing so?" school of thought.

See for instance, many of the outstanding security bugs in major IT infrastructure packages. Reporting a bug either gets you stonewalled, or sued, more often than not.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 04:29:34 am
Nope, because here the fundamental tech is in competition with another established tech: human-driven cars.

Basically it only takes 1 hacked car scandal and the whole thing is on hold until they sort that out.

IT tech that isn't 100% secure or is buggy gets away with that because the tech it replaces is sneaker-net, which is far less efficient. Even with bugs, MS Word is fundamentally more efficient than a manual typewriter.

A hackable robot car is worth 0% in comparison, because it's basically like the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 which explodes and sets your house on fire. You'd rather just use a pen and paper than an exploding phone any day, the same with hackable robot cars vs human-drive cars.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2017, 04:32:19 am
Last I checked, there were more than 4 known exploits for Tesla vehicles, and several more for the other smart cars out there.  Most of them center around attacking the entertainment system because it has to connect to the outside world to play streaming content, and the idiots ***STILL*** have not learned that the entertainment system should not be physically connected to the drive control and engine diagnostic systems in any way whatsoever.

That means your normal fodder of things like TIFF file exploits, and the like, can get you right in, and allow you to start shitting fake packets into the drivetrain control system over the local network inside the vehicle.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 04:34:59 am
But you've already outlined the fixes there for an entire class of exploits. And those techs are already old tech really. "Smart cars" is not the same as a fully developed robot car, any more than the Wright Brothers plane at kittyhawk is the same as a WWII fighter.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on February 15, 2017, 02:45:16 pm
I think the security and exploits aren't really that massive an issue.  Self-driving cars will be adopted because they're extremely convenient and efficient, much like the MS Word example.  They won't have decent security, at least until someone actually accesses one and uses that access to kill someone.  Even then, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a curfluffle for a couple months, a few patches, and then nothing significant.  They'll fix that particular exploit, and nothing more.

Nobody cares about the ethereal fear of "Oh, people could crash my car!", because it doesn't happen, and probably won't for quite awhile.  They do care about the very real and frequent event of "Oh, my email/gaming/bank account was hacked!" because that actually happens a lot.  I suppose if ISIS starts crashing teslas as a terrorist attack, then people will care--I just doubt that'll happen, as there's plenty of comparatively easy hacks terrorists could use to worsen their attacks, but they just don't.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on February 15, 2017, 03:01:21 pm
We'd need to compare car security to a comparable issue with contemporary cars, such as mechanical tampering. An all-electric computer control system would preforce run diagnostics on startup, and thus would likely detect if someone cut the brakeline or something. And it could start up remotely, rendering classical carbombs less of a threat.

Of course, this all falls in the category of deciding whether it's safer to go to the beach and risk getting shot by a dog swimming with a gun in its mouth, or go to the museum and risk a statue falling on you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 15, 2017, 03:28:35 pm
It hurts my soul seeing people talking about Word as a comparison with something else using terms like "convenient" and "efficient" in any situation, but "secure" should not be allowed in a world where people cling to old ass operating systems and thus there are still people using shit like Word 2000~2010 with all of the vulnerabilities in place. I mean, holy fuck, the automotive comparison would be using windows xp for the vehicle operating system with the username being something like ThePwIsabc123 and the password actually being abc123 while it has always on wifi, 4g, and since keys are annoying it's permanently unlocked!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on February 15, 2017, 04:12:16 pm
How about we cut the middle man out and you live in a hover pod that attaches itself to a central cluster? Then when it's time to get up and go somewhere your hover pod drops you off in a "just in time" fashion.

But there's one good thing about all this: automated driving etc will give people who have money a lot more free time to kill. That will increase the amount they spend on digital content such as games and movies, so there will be more job growth in those areas.

That's not clear. We're already producing enough content to leave people entertained 24/7, and with all being digital, it doesn't take more people to serve the same content to more people. There is a nice report in this week's economist on this if you're interested.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on February 15, 2017, 05:47:48 pm
Ah, but you go ahead and try and find me a decent new TV show that I'll like. It's harder than you'd think.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2017, 07:30:37 pm
Uhuh, if the amount of content consumed spikes up, by e.g. 30% then yes, more content will be made. Maybe not the full 30% extra, but how much is a question for debate. e.g. right now there are a lot of shows that get made but get cancelled because they don't have quite enough viewers to keep them profitable.

So in a "30% more shows watched" scenario, then you might see e.g. the average show getting an extra 2 seasons to it, meaning the shows you already like are getting more love. A lot of shows that are marginal or just hanging on now would become economically viable, so it's wrong to say a big increase in consumption wouldn't change patterns. Also, the type of shows will shift if people watch more on-demand stuff. e.g. "reality" type content that works on a weekly TV show basically hasn't translated at all to Youtube culture, despite Youtube's attempt to become "the new Television". The reality TV gameshow format just doesn't work outside of the weekly TV slot format.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 16, 2017, 04:39:08 am
I would never admit it because part of my "thing" is a broad hatred of most forms of media, especially anything on tv which isn't animated (or Jeopardy/educational?) and anything on youtube which is supposed to be music--but ends up with some shmuck talking-- or car/animal sounds--but ends up with some shmuck putting music over it--yet I can't help wonder when or if tv will ever end up joining the crowdfunding game.

We've got examples of stuff that kinda ended up migrating back to tv from the internet, One Punch Man going from webcomic to Murata-redrawn manga to ending up on Adult Swim was pretty cool, giving people the option to go throw money at ONE and Murata can only help that sort of thing, but tv still seems stuck in the "how many eyes can we get viewing our ads which we still call commercials" model.

Compare Top Gear and The Grand Tour, yeah TGT has flaws but it's fun because people are able to throw money at something they want to see, while TG has people trying to make people want to see something, and I adore Chris Harris, really I do, but I've yet to bother to catch a single episode since it isn't just him being goofy and loving cars with a couple other hosts having fun doing their thing instead of "New and Improved Top Gear Now With Extra Hosts and Jokes!" like they tried to push out last season.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 21, 2017, 12:14:45 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39032105

Quote
Scientists 'solve' the ketchup problem

Scientists in the US may have found a solution to one of the classic dinner table problems - getting every drop of ketchup out of a bottle.

As the BBC's Pallab Ghosh reports, they say it is down to a non-toxic coating that makes the inside of bottles super-slippery.

So basically they've made food-safe hydrophobic coatings now, and you can put stuff in there and get 100% of the sauce which just slides out. There are a lot of benefits here. Saved time, saved money, less water to wash bottles, easier to recycle. Also, I can't vouch for this, but water-repellent plastics might leach less bad stuff into the liquids itself, since the liquids aren't infusing into the plastic's surface.

Maybe in 15-20 years from now we'll be explaining to young adults that there was once a time when sauce got stuck in bottles. Of course, this also saves a lot of food waste, and therefore prevents a lot of CO2 and methane emissions from landfill. The video has a demonstration, and says they already use this stuff in industrial application e.g. anything that comes in contact with paint and you don't want the paint sticking to it. Liquiglide-coated funnels and buckets etc. Any unused paint could just be tipped back into the can.

And of course it's not just food containers. Anything you don't want to get yucked up could have the coating. e.g. create liquiglide plastics for electronics, clothes, cars, tools etc. Having that on your phone's screen would be good for rainy weather too.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 21, 2017, 04:59:44 am
Having that on your phone's screen would be good for rainy weather too.
"Hello hardware. It's the App here...  You keep on giving me a lot of <swipe down> signals...   My bloated libraries know what swipe-downs are, but they don't actually mean anything to the rest of my code.  I suppose I could just automatically set up a date with the next teething-age Ood that gets passed to me for display...?"

;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 21, 2017, 05:01:32 am
TBH if the phone's sensitive to individual rain drops rolling off, then it would treat the "splat" of the raindrop as you tapping the phone. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 21, 2017, 05:44:40 am
It does.  Every tablet I've had (is this one the fifth?) appears to have been not significantly affected by light rain egress when left off, and momentarily in the open, but if left on in anything above the lightest of mizzles clearly exhibits the signs of random prods of the screen.

(Not fully wiping the screen dry, and drying the operating finger properly, also leaves a damp streak that seems to be interpreted as a constant finger-contact, when tested with a suitably indicative app.  But then maybe I'm just indistinguishable from rain, rather than vice-versa.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 21, 2017, 07:21:13 am
IDK, the hydrophobic stuff works by reducing friction between the surface and water so it sort of just falls off, that should in fact heavily reduce the amount that water interacts with the surface.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 21, 2017, 09:02:30 am
Considering that (not so much this tablet, but certainly its predecessor) a finger hovering over the screen a good 5-10mm off could still interact (useful when with sticky fingers, not so useful when thumbs were hovering through uncertainty), it'd maybe be enough to confuse matters. But then it'd depend upon use. Maybe ultrafine rivulets just wouldn't accumulate enough local 'capacitance' to trigger (holding the screen at an angle) and only meniscusly-pooled super-drops (when held horizontal or near-horizontal) would cause actual problems.

But as I tend not to try to get the screen rained upon, currently, it's doubtful whether I'd let this affect things if it were so improved.. Just saying.

(Fun fact: my hands don't leave visible changes on most of those thermochromatic surfaces that are supposed to. Perjaps it's a good job it's not heat which my devices tries to detect my input with...  ;) )
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 22, 2017, 12:32:55 am
My Samsung tablet doesn't have any of those problems, or react to raindrops. Nor have I ever had any issues with my couple of Android smartphones I've owned. I think hydrophobic coating on a phone is just going to make it interact with water less than it does now, which is basically not noticeable anyway.

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/02/21/2020252/ups-develops-rolling-warehouse-system-in-which-drones-are-launched-from-atop-trucks
UPS wants to have trucks with drone fleets on them that do the actual delivery. Basically a truck drone aircraft carrier. Man, that's a step back from Amazon's airships with drones flying warehouse idea. Be more ambitious UPS, orbital drop pods.

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/02/21/2350216/college-senior-turns-his-honda-civic-into-a-self-driving-car-using-free-hardware-software
College student creates self-driving car with open source software / hardware instructions made by Comma. So you can already refit vehicles yourself at the individual level. But that poses a lot of questions about legal liability.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on February 22, 2017, 12:41:17 am
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/02/21/2020252/ups-develops-rolling-warehouse-system-in-which-drones-are-launched-from-atop-trucks
UPS wants to have trucks with drone fleets on them that do the actual delivery. Basically a truck drone aircraft carrier. Man, that's a step back from Amazon's airships with drones flying warehouse idea. Be more ambitious UPS, orbital drop pods.

Retroviruses. Ambient retroviruses.

The infect and genetically engineer a plant or animal nearby you to turn into a biomechanical factory to produce your ordered item on demand. In order to get the viruses distributed, UPS builds a network of gene printers on telephone poles all over the US.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on February 22, 2017, 01:09:15 am
Retroviruses. Ambient retroviruses.

The infect and genetically engineer a plant or animal nearby you to turn into a biomechanical factory to produce your ordered item on demand. In order to get the viruses distributed, UPS builds a network of gene printers on telephone poles all over the US.
Why settle for near you? What if you need something printed as you walk?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 22, 2017, 01:10:10 am
Not taking it far enough. Rather than your bio-machine factories it would be easier to do this:

The gene manipulation viruses bypass the plants and animals to infect humans instead. They condition your brain to both believe that you wanted, and received a product from Amazon which you used and either disposed of or gave away / on-sold. Then they hit you with a bill and you're happy to pay it. Total Recall style.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on February 22, 2017, 04:59:20 am
http://affinelayer.com/pixsrv/index.html

It's rather limited at the moment, but holy shit it works, and almost gets passable results in some cases, this is both awesome and sligthly scary at the same time.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 22, 2017, 05:12:20 am
Huh, that's really awesome. I can see a lot of future uses for that. Artists beware.

I have a good use for that: an intelligent manga colorizer. Imagine if you created a training set of millions of images from anime and colored manga, decolorized them then trained it to recolorize. Then you should be able to give it mangas it's never seen before and see what comes out the other side.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on February 22, 2017, 12:59:45 pm
I'd be interested in seeing what happens if you give it just dialog as input and just images as the output.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 22, 2017, 08:57:55 pm
Wow...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There's a guy doing a vr run of mirrors edge I think, who kinda sums up my response here: "OH MERCIFUL JESUS! This has bad news written all over it." (https://youtu.be/pVdZh03ju6U?t=192)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2017, 11:51:59 am
https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/02/25/1720222/professors-claim-passive-cooling-breakthrough-via-plastic-film

Quote
What if you could cool buildings without using electricity? charlesj68 brings word of "the development of a plastic film by two professors at the University of Colorado in Boulder that provides a passive cooling effect."
The film contains embedded glass beads that absorb and emit infrared in a wavelength that is not blocked by the atmosphere. Combining this with half-silvering to keep the sun from being the source of infrared absorption on the part of the beads, and you have a way of pumping heat at a claimed rate of 93 watts per square meter.

The film is cheap to produce -- about 50 cents per square meter -- and could create indoor temperatures of 68 degrees when it's 98.6 outside. "All the work is done by the huge temperature difference, about 290C, between the surface of the Earth and that of outer space," reports The Economist.

That's cool. Passively absorbing infra-red and using space itself as a heat-sink. That's like a double-win vs global warming.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 26, 2017, 12:20:06 pm
Wrap your food in that foil and you won't even have to put it in the fridge! ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on February 26, 2017, 02:16:05 pm
This sounds fascinating! I'd only be concerned about what happens long-term with the stuff, but still, glass microbeads are just sand grains, nothing like plastic microbeads, right?

For a free-cooling system, it actually makes a lot of thermodynamic sense.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 26, 2017, 03:14:31 pm
Why does the sciencemag article say 10 C (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/cheap-plastic-film-cools-whatever-it-touches-10-c) and the economist article say 17 C (http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21716599-film-worth-watching-how-keep-cool-without-costing-earth)?

The colorado.edu article doesn't mention either. (http://www.colorado.edu/today/2017/02/09/newly-engineered-material-can-cool-roofs-structures-zero-energy-consumption)

Though I'm wondering about the downwelling solar infrared, but at minimum this'll be handy at night, it'll be handy if you dump heat into it and shield from direct solar IR, but this isn't just "stick a film on something and it will cool it!" so much as "arrange this with the right shielding and heat transfer and you can use it to dump IR" it seems.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2017, 03:23:46 pm
Why does the sciencemag article say 10 C (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/cheap-plastic-film-cools-whatever-it-touches-10-c) and the economist article say 17 C (http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21716599-film-worth-watching-how-keep-cool-without-costing-earth)?

The colorado.edu article doesn't mention either. (http://www.colorado.edu/today/2017/02/09/newly-engineered-material-can-cool-roofs-structures-zero-energy-consumption)

But the Colorado.edu article references the actual paper, which is hosted at:
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2017/02/08/science.aai7899
Colorado.edu is therefore not the primary source, sciencemag is. All three articles point back at the preceding paper.

That paper is also linked on the other sciencemag article in the very sentence that mentions 10 degree cooling.

The economist mentions:

Quote
The team estimates that 20 square metres of their film, placed atop an average American house, would be enough to keep the internal temperature at 20°C on a day when it was 37°C outside.

Which is a relative cooling of 17 degrees, but only when the temperature is 37 degrees. That's not necessarily a contradiction with 10 degrees of cooling on average. Perhaps the cooling effect is greater on a hotter than average day.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 26, 2017, 03:40:17 pm
Yeah, but the research team is based at the Colorado University, and I don't have access to the science paper itself, so I was just curious why they're giving a bunch of different values because I couldn't track down the actual paper itself (fucking paywalled science wtf) and wondered if there was one I had missed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 01, 2017, 09:05:34 pm
Googling something else I came across this story:
http://www.discovery.com/dscovrd/tech/town-rejects-solar-panels-that-would-suck-up-all-the-energy-from-the-sun/

Quote
A North Carolina town council approved a sweeping moratorium on solar power development after residents expressed fears that solar panels cause cancer and drain the sun's energy, which would leave their town dark and devoid of plant life.

The Woodland Town Council was meeting to re-zone land for a proposed solar power project from Strata Solar Company. During the meeting, a retired science teacher raised concerns "that photosynthesis, which depends upon sunlight, would not happen and would keep the plants from growing," local newspaper The Roanoke-Chowan News-Herald reports.

She attempted to substantiate to her claim by adding that she had "observed areas near solar panels where the plants are brown and dead because they did not get enough sunlight."

I checked this out because I was sure it had to be a hoax story, but it looks real.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on March 01, 2017, 09:07:29 pm
i saw that at least a year ago. the stupid level is impressive though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Baffler on March 01, 2017, 09:08:46 pm
Googling something else I came across this story:
http://www.discovery.com/dscovrd/tech/town-rejects-solar-panels-that-would-suck-up-all-the-energy-from-the-sun/

Quote
A North Carolina town council approved a sweeping moratorium on solar power development after residents expressed fears that solar panels cause cancer and drain the sun's energy, which would leave their town dark and devoid of plant life.

The Woodland Town Council was meeting to re-zone land for a proposed solar power project from Strata Solar Company. During the meeting, a retired science teacher raised concerns "that photosynthesis, which depends upon sunlight, would not happen and would keep the plants from growing," local newspaper The Roanoke-Chowan News-Herald reports.

She attempted to substantiate to her claim by adding that she had "observed areas near solar panels where the plants are brown and dead because they did not get enough sunlight."

I checked this out because I was sure it had to be a hoax story, but it looks real.

Well... directly under them, it probably would be. Maybe she's just NIMBYing?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on March 01, 2017, 09:48:45 pm
Yeah, that's from 2015. I think it mostly worked itself out.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 02, 2017, 09:36:42 am
Yeah, that's from 2015. I think it mostly worked itself out.
It's backlash will be felt for decades, until that retired science teacher's pupils have all died. How did that guy ever become a science teacher?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 02, 2017, 09:59:13 am
A she not a he, and that's what you get when counties run your nation's education system. It's literally this. Local towns in the USA raise their own property taxes to pay for the local education system, and have local school boards which are elected by the locals. It's like an 1800s approach to education, with predictable results and massive variations in teaching standards.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 02, 2017, 10:33:17 am
Surely such cases where one is mistaken over how solar panels work could be solved easily with a friendly conversation? And an encyclopedia?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 02, 2017, 10:55:06 am
Surely such cases where one is mistaken over how solar panels work could be solved easily with a friendly conversation? And an encyclopedia?
Those are manipulated by the Solar Energy lobby for their own nefarious purposes. Take off your blindfold man!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on March 02, 2017, 10:58:00 am
I'm still trying to think of how they came up with the idea that solar panels somehow cause cancer.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 02, 2017, 10:58:32 am
Surely such cases where one is mistaken over how solar panels work could be solved easily with a friendly conversation? And an encyclopedia?
Those are manipulated by the Solar Energy lobby for their own nefarious purposes. Take off your blindfold man!
At last I see

Or rather, I can't see, because all the light has been sucked up by solar panels
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 02, 2017, 01:44:00 pm
Solar panels sucking up light is just a conspiracy theory created by the CIA to divert attention from windmills bringing the earth's rotation to a halt, which is the real cause of global warming.

WE NEED TO STOP GREEN ENERGY BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE  :o
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on March 02, 2017, 01:50:51 pm
We've been having a lot more wind, recently. There are too many wind farms, meaning we're growing a surplus.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 02, 2017, 02:00:37 pm
We've been having a lot more wind, recently. There are too many wind farms, meaning we're growing a surplus.
Nah that was just me, eating too much beans.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 02, 2017, 09:43:46 pm
Now, I assumed that LW meant the encyclopedia could be used to bludgeon some sense into the "solar panels suck up light" folks, now I see that they're intended to drive Martinuzz away before his foulness kills us all! Go on! Shoo! This is only J-K, I've got M right there and I'll go grab S if I have to!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 07, 2017, 01:07:16 pm
https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/03/07/1447216/chatbot-that-overturned-160000-parking-fines-now-helping-refugees-claim-asylum

Quote
The creator of a chatbot which overturned more than 160,000 parking fines and helped vulnerable people apply for emergency housing is now turning the bot to helping refugees claim asylum. The original DoNotPay, created by Stanford student Joshua Browder, describes itself as "the world's first robot lawyer", giving free legal aid to users through a simple-to-use chat interface. The chatbot, using Facebook Messenger, can now help refugees fill in an immigration application in the US and Canada (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/06/chatbot-donotpay-refugees-claim-asylum-legal-aid). For those in the UK, it helps them apply for asylum support. The London-born developer worked with lawyers in each country, as well as speaking to asylum seekers whose applications have been successful. Browder says this new functionality for his robot lawyer is "long overdue".

All lawyers, bureaucrats and tax accountants beware of the bots.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on March 07, 2017, 02:17:10 pm
https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/03/07/1447216/chatbot-that-overturned-160000-parking-fines-now-helping-refugees-claim-asylum

Quote
The creator of a chatbot which overturned more than 160,000 parking fines and helped vulnerable people apply for emergency housing is now turning the bot to helping refugees claim asylum. The original DoNotPay, created by Stanford student Joshua Browder, describes itself as "the world's first robot lawyer", giving free legal aid to users through a simple-to-use chat interface. The chatbot, using Facebook Messenger, can now help refugees fill in an immigration application in the US and Canada (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/06/chatbot-donotpay-refugees-claim-asylum-legal-aid). For those in the UK, it helps them apply for asylum support. The London-born developer worked with lawyers in each country, as well as speaking to asylum seekers whose applications have been successful. Browder says this new functionality for his robot lawyer is "long overdue".

All lawyers, bureaucrats and tax accountants beware of the bots.
next up, kitchen bots that actually make you want to buy their kitchens.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on March 08, 2017, 06:31:31 pm
More machine learning goodness: http://geometry.cs.ucl.ac.uk/projects/2017/how2sketch/paper_docs/how2sketch_highres.pdf

I haven't read it yet because it's late and I've had a few but a video explains the basic gist of it nicely. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brs1qCDzRdk)

AI that creates tutorials for drawing things, and it seems to be better at doing so than actual humans.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on March 08, 2017, 06:44:10 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/us/politics/scott-pruitt-environmental-protection-agency.html

I guess the environment was good while it lasted.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 08, 2017, 09:04:30 pm
IBM has a working system that stores a 0 or 1 in a single atom (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v543/n7644/full/nature21371.html). Now they just have to scale that up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on March 09, 2017, 12:00:14 am
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/us/politics/scott-pruitt-environmental-protection-agency.html

I guess the environment was good while it lasted.

Well, this'll be interesting.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Vilanat on March 09, 2017, 03:53:34 am
IBM has a working system that stores a 0 or 1 in a single atom (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v543/n7644/full/nature21371.html). Now they just have to scale that up.

Also works on a drop of blood near you:
http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-stored-a-movie-a-computer-os-and-an-amazon-gift-card-in-a-single-speck-of-dna
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Akura on March 15, 2017, 04:54:54 am
I'm curious if the following system will work: With three permanent magnets, one attached to a pendulum, the pendulum swings back and forth. The force of the pendulum works a mechanism the turns the other two magnets in such a way that when the pendulum magnet approaches one, its opposite pole is facing the pendulum(thus attracting it), and when it reaches the height of its swing, it turns around to the same pole facing(thus pushing it in the other way), and doing the same for the other side of the swing. Would something like this continue moving without input?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on March 15, 2017, 05:49:42 am
I'm curious if the following system will work: With three permanent magnets, one attached to a pendulum, the pendulum swings back and forth. The force of the pendulum works a mechanism the turns the other two magnets in such a way that when the pendulum magnet approaches one, its opposite pole is facing the pendulum(thus attracting it), and when it reaches the height of its swing, it turns around to the same pole facing(thus pushing it in the other way), and doing the same for the other side of the swing. Would something like this continue moving without input?

The energy needed to turn the side magnets away would be more than the energy you'd impart in the pendulum.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on March 15, 2017, 06:57:37 am
In general, if you're looking at anything and wondering "would this continue moving forever, without adding any energy from the outside?", the answer is "No. Definitely not. You've forgotten to account for something pretty fundamental."

This may or may not apply even at the level of the whole Universe, but certainly will at any tabletop experiment scale.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on March 15, 2017, 02:51:35 pm
So just coming off 74 hours of no electricity, I would be all for some kind of green backup power system.  Trouble is, even in an 'advanced' nation, the ROI is hard to justify.  For just critical power needs, I think I need a system capable of 3kW peak and about 5kW-hr daily production.  I figure I could go solar + battery and inverter for this, but it would cost around $5000 in just parts.  If I offset 100% of that 5kW-hr of grid power every day,  at my costs, that's only about $0.80 a day in savings - just shy of $300 a year.  So call it a 15-year payback period... It's just not economically viable on a personal cashflow basis.  And that's not even accounting for the unclear additional value it adds (if any) to the house, so if I sell before the 15 years, I may not even make my money back at all.

I'm actually tired of advancements in "consumer tech" like phones and stuff and 4G wifi - I want technology that lowers my monthly bills.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on March 18, 2017, 11:29:31 am
Bone conduction headphones are a thing apparently, a thing I really really wanna try/get now. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCqisXxtego)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tiruin on March 19, 2017, 11:43:57 pm
Bone conduction headphones are a thing apparently, a thing I really really wanna try/get now. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCqisXxtego)
OH MY GOODNESS this really reminds me of techniques used to help the hard of hearing or deaf people! :O
Also I really want one given my way of hearing >__>
I wonder how to buy this. :-\

And PTW this awesome thread!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on March 21, 2017, 01:06:32 pm
Why does California grow food instead of building solar panels?

Economically speaking.

I put together an estimate here of extremely conservative estimates of income and fairly generous estimates of costs. For instance, I've assumed the market value of electricity is $0.04 per kWh, which is less than the cost of producing electricity with coal. I've assumed that the effective sun hours are a flat 5/day for CA, rather than the 6.5 hours we actually get over most of the state. And I've assumed that only half of a given footprint can be actual panels instead of access, structure, and support.

I've assumed a 30 year lifespan and I've included a generous 1.5% decline in production per year.

And still, an acre of solar panels produces $21,000 a year. Including installation costs, that's still $3,200 per acre of profit, with no subsidies or anything. As far as I can tell, farms for staples are happy with a few hundred dollars per acre, maybe something on the odds of $2000 for specialty crops.

For a small family farm on a mere 200 acres, they get $656,000 for watching the sun shine and they never need to pull a weed in their life.

Note that this is the worst-case. With accurate numbers, including a $0.05/kWh pricing, it's a net $33,000 per acre (that's not income, that's profit), and a small farm gets $6.7 Million a year!

Maybe they aren't going to switch the whole farm over at once, but if you can get a loan to put up even a small area of solar panels, do it! Every yard of solar panels pays better than a yard of beets, corn, soybeans, or almonds.

I mean, we're all going to starve at this rate, but aside from that, there's no reason to grow food...

Worst-case scenario, it takes 25 years for the panels to pay themselves off; more reasonable estimates would say 15 years. However, in either case, it's not like you just dumped a pile of cash down; the money would come from a loan that gets paid off as the sun shines.

EDIT: For fun, I used optimistic numbers, like current $.12/kWh prices and slightly lower decay rates on the panels. And I moved it to the Mojave and crammed the panels closer together. All in all, this 'ideal' situation paid off in less than 6 years and produces $182,000 a year per acre.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on March 21, 2017, 01:13:56 pm
The obvious solution is to start growing edible solar panels.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on March 21, 2017, 01:42:36 pm
Bone conduction headphones are a thing apparently, a thing I really really wanna try/get now. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCqisXxtego)
OH MY GOODNESS this really reminds me of techniques used to help the hard of hearing or deaf people! :O
Also I really want one given my way of hearing >__>
I wonder how to buy this. :-\

And PTW this awesome thread!

You can get them off of Amazon it seems, they're still a bit pricey (around the 100$ range it looks like). And reading up on them, they look like they're able to work for folks with damaged hearing (apparently up to a certain point, not too clear on ear anatomy myself but it seems most things up to complete destruction of the hearing system should work in some way). This combined with those funky LaForge visor things for the blind pushes people with disabled senses further into the able to function normally zone, which is all kinds of cool :D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 21, 2017, 05:06:00 pm
The obvious solution is to start growing edible solar panels.
....I imagine that would be complicated.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 21, 2017, 05:09:47 pm
Aren't those just called plants?
Plants don't produce electricity.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on March 21, 2017, 05:16:13 pm
Once you turn them into biofuel they do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 21, 2017, 05:20:11 pm
We should call them

Power Plants
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on March 21, 2017, 05:20:21 pm
If would be easier to attach a magnet and a couple wires to a sunflower. They turn very slowly, but they do turn.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 21, 2017, 11:58:46 pm
Once you turn them into biofuel they do.
...better yet, we can put a bunch of plants near a subducting fault, and then with enough patience plus time we're rolling in... oh wait.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2017, 12:05:22 am
Seriously?

Plants produce glucose. Glucose fuel cells are totally a thing. Implant fuel cells into the plant's circulatory system, and now you have biological solar panels.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2017, 01:29:37 am
algae, embedded inside an otherwise closed system, integrated into the fuel cell system.

1) genome is simple, and well documented. (easier to modify for improved glucose production)
2) easy to cultivate inside an otherwise sealed system.
3) fairly easy to integrate with the fuel cell.

If you want a large, multicellular plant-- something fleshy, like a cactus.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 22, 2017, 01:30:03 am
I was also briefly pondering how you could go about getting plants to fix certain chemicals to grow a fuel cell and started having stuff like phosphoric acid pop up as one of those "your brain thinks this is related but you aren't sure why" and then started thinking "waaaait, you're wondering about using sunlight to concentrate energy using plant matter and phosphorus?" because that sounds like a super !!fun!! idea, though I'd imagine there would be other routes you could theoretically go in with less exciting failure conditions.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2017, 01:36:55 am
The cell is closed system, EG-- all the water it will ever need is baked right inside the cell, along with the algae. It would be more expensive though, since most of the system is synthetic.

The cactus one might be cheaper and easier to install. Put it on a giant saguaro cactus or something.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2017, 02:04:02 am
Precisely why attaching a small device to the trunk of the cactus is not likely to require much maintenance over time-- the cactus does not grow fast, so the connection to the plant's xylem wont become "dead" after a year, like it would on a treetrunk. This would be something you stake onto the side of the cactus, then wire up, then otherwise ignore.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 22, 2017, 02:14:10 am
Mechanical parasite!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Akura on March 22, 2017, 04:59:40 am
I remember reading something a few years ago about them engineering plants that produce electricity.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 22, 2017, 07:54:31 am
Stephen Hawking has accepted Richard Branson's offer to be a passensger on a flight of the Virgin Galactic.
Hawkins into space, yee-haa. I hope he does survive the trip.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on March 22, 2017, 07:57:36 am
Can hawking, in his current state, even live through the g forces involved in takeoff? It'd be kind of a huge letdown to just have him die before even reaching space.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 22, 2017, 08:09:28 am
Can hawking, in his current state, even live through the g forces involved in takeoff? It'd be kind of a huge letdown to just have him die before even reaching space.

He already survived a weigthlessness simulation by freefall dropping a jet with him in it.
Still, it's gamble. Who knows, maybe he even plans on dying that way. I don't think there's anti-euthanasia laws in space. (Over here, as well as in a lot of other European countries, ALS is a no-questions asked (well, almost) approval reason for legal euthanasia)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on March 22, 2017, 08:42:25 am
Can hawking, in his current state, even live through the g forces involved in takeoff? It'd be kind of a huge letdown to just have him die before even reaching space.
Virgin Galactic is the air-launched method, with SpaceShipOne peaking at 4g upwards, and a bumpy 5g in its return deceleration (which is more significant than the vomit comet, as mentioned, which cycles through 2g stretches between its 0g bouts, and even a Saturn V moonshot was limited to 4g at its peak).

But Hawking's disability is a paralysing one, not a weakness of bones (e.g. Brittle Bone Disease) or cardiopulminary problems (though his habitually sedentary lifestyle won't help) and given the limits that a normal human can experience (>45g on a rocket sled) I'm sure that with a bit of care and attention, and an adaptation of some of his existing supoort apparatus, there'd be no problem getting him through the SpaceShipTwo flight profile, assuming everything else goes to plan.


(Of course, we all know that the real aim of this mission is to get Hawking, and various other important people, to the secret moonbase just before things go bad down on Earth...)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on March 22, 2017, 07:30:25 pm
I hate solar roadways. (http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/03/apparently-walking-on-solar-panels.html)

The people behind them should be drawn and quartered. They've pulled us back five years in solar acceptance with their god damned scam.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on March 22, 2017, 07:44:13 pm
Nobody with any decent engineering thought the damn things would work. Thunderf00t called it out when the campaign had just started and everyone was warned of how ludicrous the whole thing was. Whats specially jarring is that there's still people insane enough to believe the whole thing is real after that whole test debacle, with a road surface and panels that were so poorly constructed that after less than a week of testing, several of the panels weren't even working due to moisture seeping through and panels overheating. Its honestly a surprise the damn thing didn't go up in flames.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 22, 2017, 08:42:41 pm
I dug the idea and hoped throwing money at it could fix the problems, but always wondered why not just install the panel systems over roadways/alongside them as sound walls/etc and get almost all the same benefits without the nasty wear demands.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 23, 2017, 06:35:57 am
Meanwhile Google is looking at several 100 million dollars less profit. After 250 major UK companies already decided to do so, US multinationals followed their example and withdrew all their advertisements on Google, until Google finds a way to prevent terrorist groups from making money from their ads.

Inb4 Google mandates full intelligence service screening for anyone wanting to create a website or blog that uses ads.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on March 23, 2017, 08:36:05 am
Meanwhile Google is looking at several 100 million dollars less profit. After 250 major UK companies already decided to do so, US multinationals followed their example and withdrew all their advertisements on Google, until Google finds a way to prevent terrorist groups from making money from their ads.

Inb4 Google mandates full intelligence service screening for anyone wanting to create a website or blog that uses ads.

What? ISIS was running google ads?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 23, 2017, 08:40:47 am
Meanwhile Google is looking at several 100 million dollars less profit. After 250 major UK companies already decided to do so, US multinationals followed their example and withdrew all their advertisements on Google, until Google finds a way to prevent terrorist groups from making money from their ads.

Inb4 Google mandates full intelligence service screening for anyone wanting to create a website or blog that uses ads.

What? ISIS was running google ads?

No, jihadists embedded google's ad-serving systems into websites and the like. But how exactly is Google supposed to go and look at every single website that has adserving and work out if they're baddies or not? The costs involved would be staggering. It's cheaper for Google not to take your money for ads than have to pay people to go and check out every site. Even on a site they own, Youtube, checking out what ads are playing on every video and whether those videos are "baddie" videos would be prohibitively expensive.

Automated "ISIS" filters aren't going to work: it's currently non-existent technology.

Paying people to watch every video before it gets ads would cost more than the ad revenue. If you pay people $10 an hour to watch videos then you have to recoup $10 in advertising revenue per hour of content on Youtube, which is of course impossible.

So the only option is crowdsourcing the ratings, and if you're waiting for enough user feedback to come on every video before you even serve the first advert, then of course that's going to cost millions and millions of dollars in lost revenue.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 23, 2017, 10:38:10 am
Well, yeah, Google doesn't have much options. Either they do nothing and accept that more and more companies will stop advertising via Google, or go full police state on anyone wanting to use ads, or they stop using ads altogether, which would be a bummer for bloggers and indie devs alike. Bye bye source of income.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on March 23, 2017, 11:11:02 am
They'll probably try to implement some kind of content recognition or correlation system.  You can't check every website, but you can probably do pretty well at generating a suspicion level based on content on the site.  After all, they already do some level of content recognition for targeting ads.  Keywords and links to other known problem sites probably even go a long way toward generating such a number.  If a site's suspicion level is high enough, it could be reviewed manually.  If it's high enough you could even block the ads automatically, pending a formal request to review the site.

Videos are a harder problem, but I'm guessing that you can do something similar.  Recognizing content in the video itself would probably not be worth the trouble of trying to implement, but you can probably still do correlation based on the channel it's part of, if any.  If a channel is known to be a trouble maker, or if the video title contains certain words, or if the video has embedded links to known problem videos or sites, you can flag it as suspicious.  Videos with more hits can be reviewed manually more frequently, maybe.

Actually, doesn't YouTube already do some kind of audio analysis to try to detect if you upload a video containing copyrighted music?  It might not be that hard to have it also recognize suspicious phrases or words, although the false positives and negatives would probably be a problem.

The real question still comes down to economics I guess.  Is it worth it to Google to try to implement something like that?  Maybe.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on March 23, 2017, 01:41:20 pm
Google could create a neural net to watch all its videos and read all of its pages with ads, looking for radicalized content.

This will definitely not produce an insane extremist AI.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TempAcc on March 23, 2017, 01:48:02 pm
You say that like they haven't done so already.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 23, 2017, 02:50:11 pm
Tay2
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 23, 2017, 04:36:44 pm
Google could create a neural net to watch all its videos and read all of its pages with ads, looking for radicalized content.

This will definitely not produce an insane extremist AI.
Shortly afterwards the first Strong AI God ascends, declaring that mankind is an abomination because it saw a video of one cat getting kicked after spending subjective centuries watching cat videos, so it names itself Mewhammad and declares Jrrrreeeehad.

(Roll your tongue and trill the reee in that last bit, it's difficult)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on March 23, 2017, 07:18:43 pm
Well, yeah, Google doesn't have much options. Either they do nothing and accept that more and more companies will stop advertising via Google, or go full police state on anyone wanting to use ads, or they stop using ads altogether, which would be a bummer for bloggers and indie devs alike. Bye bye source of income.

Um, I don't get it.  What do Google's competitors do which make them immune from the same problem?  Or are these multinationals pulling their internet advertising completely?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 23, 2017, 07:24:18 pm
The problem looks like it's more specifically youtube-related according to news I just saw. It's just a problem of being the major carrier of community created video content.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on March 23, 2017, 07:42:29 pm
What I saw was:

Quote
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/banks-ditch-google-rbs-lloys-hsbc-extremist-youtube-videos-isis-a7637796.html
An ad appearing alongside a YouTube video earns the poster around £6 for every 1,000 clicks it generates, meaning brands have unwittingly contributed funds to extremists.

Are you saying this is specific to google?  Otherwise it seems the multinationals are playing some other game...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 24, 2017, 02:07:04 am
Netflix wouldn't have this problem, because Netflix doesn't have user-created videos. Vimeo doesn't have this problem, because they charge subscriptions and don't show you ads.

Perhaps the problem isn't inherently tied to Youtube, but what other major community-driven video feeding service with paid ads is there really?

And it's understandable that companies would pull ads. The small amount of brand recognition isn't worth negative backlash from people who never even saw it, because your ads are appearing before extremist videos.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on March 24, 2017, 03:35:22 am
I think it is a much more general problem with internet advertising.  (Aside - worst thing about the internet = advertising, best thing about browsers = ad-blockers.  ;D)  I'm sure there has been a fair bit of embarrassment for some companies with their ads appearing next to sleazy pron material.  Invoking ISIS and targeting Google (already under fire in programmatic advertising for other reasons) just smacks to much of Junior in the days immediately post 9/11 (another aside - oh, that's how we ended up with ISIS, isn't it).  Not that the big G is high on my list of those deserving any defence...

As expressed by someone firmly inside the world of corporate command and control: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/small-business/managing/the-venture/scattergun-online-ads-are-killing-brands-20170321-gv34dz.html (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/small-business/managing/the-venture/scattergun-online-ads-are-killing-brands-20170321-gv34dz.html)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 24, 2017, 03:37:24 am
We complain about ads on the internet but ... broadcast TV. 15 minutes per hour completely filled with commercials. Yet ... somehow people complain about internet ad banners more than they ever did about having to spend 1/4 of your time watching forced ads. I mean seriously, consider back in the day you'd watch an 8:30 movie on TV, it would go to 10:30, and you'd have half an hour of ads interrupting the thing, probably about 10-12 three minute ad breaks during the whole movie. Internet is NOT worse than that reality.

Even on Youtube, "scourged" by advertising, you sometimes have to watch 15 seconds of ad before watching a 1 hour video, and people spit the dummy about this, many of the same people who sit through TV ad breaks without batting an eyelid. The problem isn't that there are ads, it's that people have become entitled. Youtube is like old TV would be with millions of channels and you can choose what show you want to watch. The ratio of advertising to content is much, much better than commercial TV.

What the problem is, isn't that there are 15 second of adverts per hour, it's that internet is an interactive medium, and being forced to sit through something you didn't choose makes it feel like that's being taken away, whereas TV is passive. So it's a purely subjective phenomena. 15 seconds of ads per hour on Youtube feels like an affront while 15 minutes of ads per hour on TV feels normal.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 24, 2017, 04:37:07 am
There are ads on youtube?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Pwnzerfaust on March 24, 2017, 10:55:34 am
Tay2
Rest in peace, Tay. You were murdered too young.   :'(
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: itisnotlogical on March 24, 2017, 11:03:33 am
Blocking ads on TV was never an option though. It kinda sucked, but what could you do besides turn the volume down until your show came back?

TV ads also never opened pop-ups, or made your show take forever to load, or analyzed your browsing habits or gave your TV viruses (which they might now with Smart TVs, I don't know). Internet ads are still complicit in all of these things.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 24, 2017, 03:07:14 pm
Eh, fuck TV. Pointing out that hell exists won't make me grumble any less that they put the wrong kind of cheese on my sandwich.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on March 24, 2017, 03:43:27 pm
Hostile ads are the reason I stopped visiting DeviantART (or however they want you to spell it these days).  The last 3 viruses I got came from drive by PDF exploit ads there, which I guess they were unwilling or unable to remove for some reason.

That was years ago though, so maybe it's better now.  I don't particularly care to go check though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Pwnzerfaust on March 24, 2017, 03:51:04 pm
Yeah, I have Adblock on because of ads that are intrusive and bog down my browser. Adds on Wikia are particularly egregious. I've got a pretty fast computer, but going on Wikia without Adblock slows Chrome to a crawl.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 25, 2017, 01:55:04 am
While our illustrious orange skinned leader is busy turning the US into the nightmare fuel dystopia depicted in Judge Dredd, it seems that Silly Valley has been hard at work bringing us the delightful food delivery robots seen in the movie.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/18/14300054/food-delivery-robots-postmates-doordash-us-launch

I admit that some part of me wants to hack one so that it mildly suggests eating recycled food.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNw95c75g7o
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 06, 2017, 01:12:03 am
The latest development in household appliances linked to the internet:

Maker of internet controllable garage doors found a creative solution to bad reviews:
After an unsatisfied customer called his product a 'piece of shit' on the company forums, and on Amazon, the firm's boss snapped, and remotely shut and locked the complaining customer's garage door.

So guys, if you buy an internet controlled product, just always pretend to be a happy customer, or else.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on April 06, 2017, 07:22:30 am
Blocking ads on TV was never an option though. It kinda sucked, but what could you do besides turn the volume down until your show came back?
Not strictly true! There's been subscriptions, or specific packaging or programming, or specific hardware, that actually rendered your experience commercial free. Most are/were pretty expensive, though, near as I can recall.

In any case, beyond all you pointed out, I'd say the biggest difference so far as frustration and hostility goes is in the means of interaction. TV is very... sessile. You have little to no interaction with the system itself, and most of your agency comes from choosing channel or turning it off, which you're probably only doing intermittently at best. Meanwhile, most means of access to internet content is much more dynamic and direct; you're not just choosing specifically what, but where, format and resolution, what parts you're watching and so on, all on top of anything else you might be doing with the computer/phone/whatever. The TV ad is interrupting your show (in a way most are specifically designed to accommodate), whereas the internet as is interrupting your everything and interfering with your actions to boot. It's much, much more jarring and intrusive, even if the absolute amount is smaller per unit of content. Ree notes it fairly well, really. Missed it before typing all that at, or I would have just quoted it, ha.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Aklyon on April 06, 2017, 07:44:25 am
Well, yeah, Google doesn't have much options. Either they do nothing and accept that more and more companies will stop advertising via Google, or go full police state on anyone wanting to use ads, or they stop using ads altogether, which would be a bummer for bloggers and indie devs alike. Bye bye source of income.

Um, I don't get it.  What do Google's competitors do which make them immune from the same problem?  Or are these multinationals pulling their internet advertising completely?
They do nothing different, but because Google is often mixed up with 'The Internet in general', they get targetted by all these things first.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Aklyon on April 06, 2017, 07:59:47 am
It is a security hole because none of the things seem to even recognize security is a thing that you need in networking. If theres a part of it that isn't, thats an anomaly and probably costs more than its shittier competition.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 06, 2017, 09:03:21 am
and the people who handle the risk are asleep at the wheel.
Then the obvious solution to this is more self-driving cars!!!

They've recently been pushing Smart Meters for the electricity, that one can query by your own smart device to keep an eye on your usage and apparently send readings to the billing company, so they either have a mobile SIM in them or are reliant on being given access to your own WAN.

I rather hope the former (I can imagine a bulk deal on many low-bandwidth connections) and then you just need to query the operator's site with an appropriate login to extract your current* statistics, but there's still a bad balance of 'exposure' over 'convenience', potentially.  And that's before it becomes a full-on two-way communication (also advertised as a capability, but not as a function of the Meter, so far as I'm aware) that allows a breach/avoidance of security to switch things on or off against your own wishes.


* Or voltage?  ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on April 06, 2017, 11:33:59 am
and the people who handle the risk are asleep at the wheel.
Then the obvious solution to this is more self-driving cars!!!
Tay2 for President!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on April 06, 2017, 09:57:59 pm
Good news: A solution to insecure IoT devices has been found: https://security.radware.com/ddos-threats-attacks/brickerbot-pdos-permanent-denial-of-service/

A pair of botnets was seen in the wild hacking into devices in a similar manner to the Mirai DDOS botnet that brought down a large portion of the web a few months back. When they gained access, they then ran commands which deleted and corrupted their drives, broke their internet connectivity, and set the maximum number of threads the device could run to 1. Effectively bricking them.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on April 06, 2017, 11:02:22 pm
A virus method of patching? Sounds weirdly familiar...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 06, 2017, 11:52:55 pm
Good news: A solution to insecure IoT devices has been found: https://security.radware.com/ddos-threats-attacks/brickerbot-pdos-permanent-denial-of-service/ (https://security.radware.com/ddos-threats-attacks/brickerbot-pdos-permanent-denial-of-service/)

A pair of botnets was seen in the wild hacking into devices in a similar manner to the Mirai DDOS botnet that brought down a large portion of the web a few months back. When they gained access, they then ran commands which deleted and corrupted their drives, broke their internet connectivity, and set the maximum number of threads the device could run to 1. Effectively bricking them.

Hah!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 07, 2017, 02:37:39 am
A virus method of patching? Sounds weirdly familiar...
Like having computer troubles and installing an old version of windows?

Hah, I don't actually know shit about windows anymore, last bit of involvement I had was helping a friend of the mother-in-law who had a seemingly mid-death laptop so I just tossed the harddrive in an old netbook we had and told her to grab her files and stuff off using that.

Is "Tech Archaeologist" a job description yet?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 07, 2017, 07:15:48 am
1960s tech almost qualifies as authentic antique now... Give it a little more time. :P

Now, how good are you REALLY with vintage stuff?  Can you configure an IBM XT to use an 8bit trident ISA VGA card? ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 07, 2017, 07:42:36 am
Now, how good are you REALLY with vintage stuff?  Can you configure an IBM XT to use an 8bit trident ISA VGA card? ;)
I'll stick with my Hercules, cheers... ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 07, 2017, 09:36:37 am
Don't bother with 256 colors VGA on an XT. It only became viable on a 80286 AT. EGA was a good choice for  XT if you wanted colors. Much better than CGA, although it can't beat Hercules.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 07, 2017, 10:01:59 am
A virus method of patching? Sounds weirdly familiar...
Like having computer troubles and installing an old version of windows?

Hah, I don't actually know shit about windows anymore, last bit of involvement I had was helping a friend of the mother-in-law who had a seemingly mid-death laptop so I just tossed the harddrive in an old netbook we had and told her to grab her files and stuff off using that.

Is "Tech Archaeologist" a job description yet?
I believe it's "Legacy systems specialist" so far.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 07, 2017, 11:25:23 am
1960s tech almost qualifies as authentic antique now... Give it a little more time. :P

Now, how good are you REALLY with vintage stuff?  Can you configure an IBM XT to use an 8bit trident ISA VGA card? ;)
I can take apart and put back together anything I've encountered, ranging from a Ford 302 V8 to pocket watches, pellet guns, and various desktop and laptop computers. I was oddly proud of figuring out when a branch hit the window AC and chipped one of the fan blades (whrROWwhrROWwhrROW) the reason I hate to throw out useful parts became clear to everyone else since I was able to yank out the damaged fan and swap in the intact one from the old unit I kept in the attic, though I had to use the clip from a desk fan to secure it (and only knew it would fit because I had to salvage bearings from that fan to repair a broken reciprocating mechanism with GODDAMN PLASTIC GEAR TEETH BLKJHLKJSDF) but it works properly now. It turns out being a legendary +5 jury-rigger is also handy when trying to do silly shit with raws and scripts. If it can't be clamped, shimmed, repurposed, or overhauled... it's probably a lump of jelly.

I can see there being an ever greater need for stuff like knowing which systems have the right harnesses and cables and mounts to hook up an old obscure hard drive long enough to transfer data to a newer medium, along with the relevant methods to accomplish said transfers from access to preservation and so on, though it feels like it's all obvious stuff... I guess maybe it isn't?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 07, 2017, 12:24:39 pm
You were either lucky, or you checked before putting in the old fan, that it used the same voltage. A mate of mine once literally fried his computer by putting in an incompatible fan. The dumbass  :D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 07, 2017, 01:18:31 pm
Oh no, I didn't have to replace the entire motor housing, I woulda just rebuilt the old one if I had to go that far, I mean the actual blade assembly is on a shaft and usually has various balancing/securing mechanisms involved so it's pretty hit and miss if two different brand units will have swappable parts, but desk fans are a treasure trove of similarly sized pieces. When I screw around with electricity, especially anything involving several kilograms of motor, I make sure to do a bit of digging around online to nail down exactly what the bits are. It helps that the vast majority of "different" brands are actually using the same parts for all sorts of components until you get up into major mechanical hardware and actually get stuff where it's cheaper for a company to develop something/make it themselves/get it custom made instead of pulling from the bins of [PARTS_SUPPLIER:37] or whatnot.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 07, 2017, 01:54:51 pm
A computer (that I still use, maybe 15 years after this incident) had its CPU fan break. Blades, as an edge-connected whole, disconnected from the centre spindle (or vice-versa, I suppose) , so that it whirred up in a fruitless attempt to deal with the rising temperature alongside no airflow. Luckily enough, it was while I was there, and I heard it happen (the snap and the rising whir of the spindle).  A quick trip to Maplin (RS equiv.) later, it was replaced, pretty much no fuss as it wasn't much more than the generic fan of <xx> millimetres without any fancy proprietariness.

Then, quite soon after, the PSU fan gave up (can't remember how I found out), it might even have been the same day... Hard to tell if it was independently failing or a domino effect (wrong way round for the obvious knock-on). And I opened that up (taking care of possible residual mains-magnitude voltages from some of the pots) to find that I was in luck, in that it was a generic fan of <yy> millimetres that needed replacing (again, not proprietary). Another trip to the store got the bit, and they've been running since then, exceeding the original empirically-determined MTF by at least 50%!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 07, 2017, 04:56:19 pm
Don't bother with 256 colors VGA on an XT. It only became viable on a 80286 AT. EGA was a good choice for  XT if you wanted colors. Much better than CGA, although it can't beat Hercules.

Nopey nope! VGA cards of that era have EGA and Hercules emulation in them, which is why they always consume A000-B7FF. ;) You configure the XTs bios to "EGA present" with the dipswitch block, and that 8bit VGA will turn right on. Several games from that era will even paint VGA graphics on an XT, and not rely on EGA emulation.

This is useful if you want to play an authentic system, but cannot source a vintage monitor.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on April 07, 2017, 05:54:36 pm
Nothing specific, but a rather neat talk on the possibilities and where they might go in regards to the tech used in developing art assets for games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rt0wOyCCAI)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on April 07, 2017, 07:45:39 pm
Related, since that is one: here's all the GDC 2017 talks online http://www.gdcvault.com/browse/gdc-17
The ones without stars next to them can be viewed for free; the others are paywalled. (PCG shotgun on page 10 was the one with Tarn's mini-talk)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 08, 2017, 11:44:40 am
The beginning of the end for Uber has begun.
The Italian court ruled that Uber services are unfair competition on the market, and banned them from Italy. Uber has 10 days to withdraw all it's services, apps, and commercials from Italy. If the verdict holds in supreme court, Italy will be the first EU country that bans all Uber services, like Uberpop, Uberlux, Uberblack, UberSUV, UberXL, UberVan and UberSelect. More are expected to follow.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 08, 2017, 11:51:01 am
"unfair competition"

unfair

competition

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on April 08, 2017, 12:05:16 pm
"unfair competition"

unfair

competition

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Taxists don't want to adapt, so they make a lobby to drive Uber out of the country.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on April 08, 2017, 01:08:50 pm
Uber's fares are subsidized heavily by VCs in an attempt to monopolize the market. Uber's fares pay for only 41% of their expenses.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/uber-true-cost-uh-oh
Their business model is driving all others out of business so they can jack up prices later. So yeah, unfair competition funded by capitalists in an attempt to make things worse for everyone.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 08, 2017, 01:19:12 pm
Uber's fares are subsidized heavily by VCs in an attempt to monopolize the market. Uber's fares pay for only 41% of their expenses.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/uber-true-cost-uh-oh
Their business model is driving all others out of business so they can jack up prices later. So yeah, unfair competition funded by capitalists in an attempt to make things worse for everyone.
So charge them with attempted monopolization and fine them lots of money?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on April 08, 2017, 01:33:29 pm
Uber's fares are subsidized heavily by VCs in an attempt to monopolize the market. Uber's fares pay for only 41% of their expenses.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/uber-true-cost-uh-oh
Their business model is driving all others out of business so they can jack up prices later. So yeah, unfair competition funded by capitalists in an attempt to make things worse for everyone.
So charge them with attempted monopolization and fine them lots of money?
Which is precisely what they're doing by banning the service. Though the fines are more an implicit thing in this case, both because Uber didn't actually profit in the market yet (and thus the loss is mostly spending lots of money subsidizing without gaining a monopoly at the end of it) and because it's often seen as more fair to warn a business to stop doing something explicitly before breaking out big fines.

Banning them is how you tell them to stop doing what they're doing; they could continue in the market, but not without a massive redesign of their business practices which they're repeatedly shown they aren't willing to do. The ban is to keep them from playing a legalistic shell game at the expense of everybody else.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 08, 2017, 01:43:07 pm
Uber's fares are subsidized heavily by VCs in an attempt to monopolize the market. Uber's fares pay for only 41% of their expenses.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/uber-true-cost-uh-oh
Their business model is driving all others out of business so they can jack up prices later. So yeah, unfair competition funded by capitalists in an attempt to make things worse for everyone.
So charge them with attempted monopolization and fine them lots of money?
Which is precisely what they're doing by banning the service. Though the fines are more an implicit thing in this case, both because Uber didn't actually profit in the market yet (and thus the loss is mostly spending lots of money subsidizing without gaining a monopoly at the end of it) and because it's often seen as more fair to warn a business to stop doing something explicitly before breaking out big fines.

Banning them is how you tell them to stop doing what they're doing; they could continue in the market, but not without a massive redesign of their business practices which they're repeatedly shown they aren't willing to do. The ban is to keep them from playing a legalistic shell game at the expense of everybody else.
I think I need to see the rationales behind this before passing further judgement.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 08, 2017, 02:35:11 pm
We can expect AirBnB to get banned at some point too. It's already causing huge disruption of the housing market. House owners rather rent out their house per touist / per room / per period via AirBnB than using it for what it's needed: housing. It's already been restricted somewhat in the Netherlands, with Amsterdam passing a decree that a house may only be rented out as tourist accomodation for a limited number of months per year, because the house rental market was completely locked down with AirBnB.

As for Uber, it's what alway said, at least over here. Uber offers 'carpooling' service for less than half a normal taxi price. There's no way that taxi drivers can compete with that. 'Real' taxi drivers have to pay for expensive taxi licenses every year, and invest in expensive safety and comfort driving education, to comply with labour and safety laws. Uber taxi drivers don't, because they're 'carpoolers', not taxi drivers. Changing that would help. It would still allow Uber to heavily subsidize their fares, but it would mean that everyone who wants to drive for Uber will first need to go to chauffeur school for a year or so (and pay for it), and buy a taxi license. Basically, no one would want to be an Uber driver anymore, because they could just as well become a normal taxi driver in that case and earn much more.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on April 08, 2017, 03:07:23 pm
On a similar note, the other half of the Uber monopoly bet is self-driving cars so they can avoid paying drivers in the future; which is the only way they could keep current rates and turn a profit. To that end, they've been working on self-driving car tech. Which they apparently started on by nicking a set of documents from Google's self driving car work, resulting in the current Google v Uber trial. It's worth following that trial (currently in discovery phase) if only for the ace commentary from Judge Alsup, taker of no bullshitting, and master of snark.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/uber-exec-accused-of-stealing-from-google-made-120m-while-working-on-the-side/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/ubers-levandowski-really-doesnt-want-to-talk-about-any-waymo-documents/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/judge-orders-uber-to-search-servers-work-harder-to-find-waymos-14000-files/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/judge-accuses-uber-and-levandowski-of-obfuscation-in-waymo-case/
Quote
"I hope the court of appeals will read this record, to see the obfuscation the poor judge has been subjected to on this motion," Alsup said.


And despite all that, their self driving car project is still terrible: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/03/17/1916215/uber-nowhere-close-to-having-a-fully-autonomous-vehicle-its-self-driving-cars-need-a-lot-of-human-help
"Uber's self-driving cars traveled, on average, just 0.8 miles on their own before a human had to take over"
So yeah, Uber's not in a happy place.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 08, 2017, 03:39:48 pm
We can expect AirBnB to get banned at some point too. It's already causing huge disruption of the housing market. House owners rather rent out their house per touist / per room / per period via AirBnB than using it for what it's needed: housing. It's already been restricted somewhat in the Netherlands, with Amsterdam passing a decree that a house may only be rented out as tourist accomodation for a limited number of months per year, because the house rental market was completely locked down with AirBnB.
Not the only problem potentially facing AirBNB (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-39528479)...  ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 08, 2017, 08:47:38 pm
I think I need to see the rationales behind this before passing further judgement.

The rationale is that they're selling below cost in order to drive everyone else out of business. And of course, costs aren't actually coming down, they plan to get the monopoly then triple the prices to make their money back. Gotta stomp on people who do that or else you're screwed. That's the rationale.

There's also the fact that everyone who works at Uber is an asshole, from top to bottom, no exceptions. And they plan to replace all their actual non-asshole drivers with robots. so you have bunch of assholes who want to drive everyone else out of business and replace their own workforce with a robot army. What more rationale do we need for destroying Uber before it's too late?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Azzuro on April 09, 2017, 01:21:27 am
Fuck Uber, and FUCK the gig economy shit they've introduced. Yes, taxis charge higher prices, but taxi drivers also get insured and licensed by their companies to drive safely and professionally. Whereas if you're an Uber driver and get into an accident, you're shit out of luck because Uber won't pay for repairs/healthcare as they specifically go out of the way to avoid calling their drivers employees, instead calling them contractors and shifting all responsibility onto them. Uber also does their damnedest to avoid government rules and regulations wherever they can to drive costs down, which they've been pretty successful at so far as laws haven't caught up to their business model.

The most insidious thing is that Uber drivers actually believe Uber is doing a good thing for them, by giving them an avenue to earn more money. They fail to see that contractual employment is, by its nature much more dangerous to their personal finance and retirement savings than staff employment, and gives an even greater degree of bargaining power to the employer (Uber) rather than cutting out the employer entirely as it's promised to do. It's a huge step back in labour relations, and yet many millennials see it as the way of the future.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 09, 2017, 02:13:30 am
Actually the way of the future there is to replace Uber completely with a blockchain-based ride hailing app.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 09, 2017, 02:29:41 am
Unless Uber is transporting data, that does not make a whole lot of sense Reelya.  Maybe once they develop some kind of digital transport for people (startrek transporter, et al)-- but until then? Uhm.... How exactly will a blockchain in any way help physical transport?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 09, 2017, 02:39:31 am
uh, by being the backbone for the ride sharing system. The humans have the cars. People have already built working systems like this.

Maybe you should start using google before being incredulous. I was able to find two different systems in three seconds with google
http://www.newsbtc.com/2016/03/22/using-blockchain-decentralized-ride-sharing-lazooz/
https://cointelegraph.com/news/arcade-city-decentralized-blockchain-based-answer-to-uber
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 09, 2017, 02:56:33 am
Clearly I am a curmudgeron when it comes to this whole "Mobile Infrastructure" thing, but I have to ask-- what is wrong with using a phone number?

When you have an app for everything, you will need a bazillion apps to do anything. That in and of itself is very undesirable, IMO.  I could just have a phone that can call any number.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 09, 2017, 02:59:57 am
Clearly I am a curmudgeron when it comes to this whole "Mobile Infrastructure" thing, but I have to ask-- what is wrong with using a phone number?

When you have an app for everything, you will need a bazillion apps to do anything. That in and of itself is very undesirable, IMO.  I could just have a phone that can call any number.

How many people are you going to call to get a ride? Randomly call everyone in town? The whole point is to cut out the costs of having the centralized company.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 09, 2017, 03:34:55 am
Blockchain currency solutions have at their core the concept of solving increasingly more tedious problems to 'earn' the wealth therein, which can then be distributed accordingly.  Clearly the ultimate version would be to have the problem be "who wants to go where?", and the person who discovers/fulfils the conditions of that problem earns the credit.

And why should this even need the 'customer' to use an App, if their need is purely derived from the very process that is generating the work?  You step outside your door, and discover that someone who happens to be going your way is waiting for you, even if you hadn't yet decided your itinery yet...

In Blockchain Uber, taxis hire you!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 09, 2017, 03:42:46 am
Much like how there are a vast number of implementations of blockchain based cryptocurrencies, each rideshare service would not want to use the same blockchain as their competitors (because reasons), and so to connect to the various different blockchain authority trees (such as to hail a ride), one would need different apps for easy integration. (EG, "push the 'Hail ride' button, and we automagically use your phone's GPS to get a coarse location, and a nearby provider is alerted to your hail, and goes there to get you!-- But only for OUR service!")

As to answer Reelya's question-- What is the functional difference between supporting a computational infrastructure to manage the internet connectivity of the app (the app needs a central server to talk to, because it is not clairvoyant-- it needs to keep track of what ride providers are in what areas, at what times, so it can do the assignments) and keeping a call center, other than having humans involved?

If you use a robot answering service, is there really a functional difference, other than "I used an app instead of calling! Whoo!!" ? Natural language processing is very useful, and can be used to leverage several useful services automatically-- such as programatically detecting if the caller is drunk based on speech patterns.  There is also a fairly universal method of keeping track of different contacts in the phone already-- the contact list. Most phones allow you to sort it by arbitrary categorization, like "Ride services".  No need to fumble for a bunch of different apps, who may or may not all want to update before they connect to the blockchain authority-- when either a voice call or a text message with an address will suffice.

Text service being especially useful for areas with abysmally shitty cellular connectivity. SMS needs less than 1 bar of signal to send out.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 09, 2017, 03:52:50 am
Blockchain currency solutions have at their core the concept of solving increasingly more tedious problems to 'earn' the wealth therein, which can then be distributed accordingly.  Clearly the ultimate version would be to have the problem be "who wants to go where?", and the person who discovers/fulfils the conditions of that problem earns the credit.

And why should this even need the 'customer' to use an App, if their need is purely derived from the very process that is generating the work?  You step outside your door, and discover that someone who happens to be going your way is waiting for you, even if you hadn't yet decided your itinery yet...

In Blockchain Uber, taxis hire you!

Well no that's not really a good description. Blockchains have at their core rewarding people for processing the transactions that make up the service. If you buy something with bitcoin, it's the miners who make the actual financial transaction exist at all. They didn't put mining in for lulz, they put it in because you can't expect people to just keep processing transactions for free. That's what the blocks that miners create are: a block of transactions that other people have requested. So yes they did earn that, because it's the miners who make the service operate.

And the cryptography is there as the validation that you're not just inserting fake blocks. Each block of transactions carries a cryptographic key that's only valid when connected to all the other blocks in the chain, that way you can validate that the transactions in your database haven't been tampered with, and by comparing it to everyone else's database, that you all agree on the contents of the ledger: by checking the hashes on each block you can make sure they all add up and that everyone else has the same hashes. The way it's done is actually a critical component of the idea behind a distributed database with no "owner".

So no, the cryptography is not just some "random puzzles" they made up for fun, it's a set of hashes that uniquely identifies the entire transaction history of the network. That's what the miners are producing when they "mine a block". Rather than being random, it's an important task that's critical to ensuring that the data is secure.

Now, people might not be aware that they're processing financial transactions for other people, and encrypting information about the transaction history, when they join a coin mining pool, but that's not really relevant. What they are in fact doing is validating the current round of transactions, regardless of what motivates them to do so.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 09, 2017, 05:01:57 am
Blockchain based systems for ridesharing would be useful to verify that the responding vehicle is unique, and has a positive ID-- as well as the ride hailing device, which is useful for conducting a microtransaction. It would also be useful for verifying that the GPS location of the hailer is legit, etc. (getting a valid block in the chain is accomplished once those things are verified by the crypto function, by using that data in the key hash generation) but other than that, and providing a means of authentication for automatic payment transfer (as in with a cryptocurrency), it does little to alleviate the computational burdens of tracking where ride service providers are in real time to pair them with ride hailers.

It also does little to alleviate the costs associated with all the endpoints needing to broker contacts with each other. While it is true that P2P fileshare networks have created distributed hash table type methods of finding peers, they still need a bootstrap server of some sort for peers to connect to the swarm. Many use a "Last known peer" to help distribute that, but still not useful for a "first time connect", which would still need a reliable "all else fails" contact point to broker entry into the swarm.

Also, that would require continual contact with all the peers, which would destroy the batteries of both hailers and service providers.

Externalizes are totally a thing you know.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 10, 2017, 12:51:06 am
As someone who briefly drove a cab (2003 Crown Vic Police Interceptor, weeeee (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7SdqU63erE)) and remembers the crazy cash I'd start out with after a night, I did kinda wonder where the whole "paying the company" bit came in with Uber. If I was driving a cab and didn't have to push as much cash back to keep my cab I'd probably be singing the praises high and low surrounded by angels and such.

Was still great money, but mostly because I was young, had spent years using streetmaps of Louisville to run rpg sessions on, and most of all: I avoided the airport trap. Yes, generally the fare and tip from the airport is going to be nice, but sitting in that fucking queue... did it once, can say I understand it now, never did it again.

Also had a scary night where dispatch told us a cabbie had reported an attempted mugging and had not been heard back from, so at like 2 or 3 am you've got half the fucking fleet swarming the area looking for the car/them/the unfortunately vague description. We're all competing, yes, but goddammit cabbies look out for cabbies. Who does this with "random person who decided to start Ubering" when shit happens? Yes the cops will be there, and yes they were out there with us too, but it was a cabbie who spotted their car with the service light off and got the cops zeroed in on the fucker. Weirdly I don't actually know what happened, I just knew the car number and area where the last call back to dispatch came from and was maybe a mile south of there so I joined in the swarm hunting for the fucker.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on April 10, 2017, 04:53:49 am
That would make for an awesome movie, actually. Retired cop takes up cab driving to improve his meager pension, then his son, a junior detective, is killed by the mob - and he swears revenge.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 12, 2017, 11:30:03 pm
At my new work, they spend a lot of time fine-tuning this particular physics simulation in this game, by hand, and this has to be re-done whenever they change any of the related settings, so I wondered whether some sort of AI could actually optimize that sort of thing for you, they scoffed and explained "you can't optimize for fun". but isn't this just another example of people thinking that their job can't be automated?

I read somewhere that people generally agree that everyone else's jobs are doomed, but they all agree that their own jobs are safe and "couldn't possibly" be replaced with automation. Just everyone else who isn't them. They're all on a one-way trip to oblivion. Everyone except me. Which is of course contradictory.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 12, 2017, 11:43:31 pm
I recently ran across a study from oxford, that suggested that 25-30% of all employment in the US will be replaced by either robots or software agents in the next 10 years.  It was released in 2013, so a few years old now.

While not the focus of their study, they did pointedly remind the reader that the work of their peers shows that the rate of removal of jobs is outpacing the rate of job creation, and cited their peer's work on that.

Given the rise of things like deep learning, and improvements in soft body robots, (especially when taken together, as the former provides powerful vision systems for the latter) it is only a matter of time before most jobs are more efficiently and economically staffed with robots or software agents.  This cuts both sides of the wage divide, as evidence by the huge reduction in humans seen in places like Wallstreet. (the number of humans on the trade floor is a tiny fraction of what it was 15 years ago.) I expect that trend to continue once upper management discovers they can be replaced with far more efficient software agents.



Ipsil-- while "fun" is a concept that machines are incapable of grasping, they are more than capable of grasping sales metrics. Humans tend to buy games that they find fun. The machine learning algorithm may not comprehend what fun is, but then again, it does not comprehend what an apple is either. Does not make it less capable of identifying what is and is not an apple based on other metrics.  The same is true of an AI that takes feedback from a more easily measured proxy variable, like sales.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 13, 2017, 12:07:38 am
I am well aware of how machine vision works Ipsil. That is why I mentioned that machine learning systems trained to identify apples, have no clue what an apple is as a concept. They only observe a collage of datapoints that fairly consistently manifest in images of apples, and then weight a decision on weather or not the image is of an apple.

The same would be true of an AI that looks for "fun"-- using sales as one of many metrics. User review scores (not professional reviews, because they are tainted by their nature), hell, even the very code used to create the game itself, could all be sources that can be mined in that respect.  Early training would require a human tutor, just like machine vision does, but once it had a good model under it, it would be off at the races.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 13, 2017, 12:11:59 am
Only if you have small samples, which would be prone to false positive trends.  Get enough dataset, and if there is a trend there, it will manifest.

The argument you are making is that not enough data exists.  I would counter that; there have been thousands of games made in the past 30 years, lots of market research done, etc.  All of that is potential food for such an AI.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 12:20:17 am
I also think the armorphous idea of "fun" can be 'metric'ed" to some degree.

What is "fun" in a game? Can fun be measured? I think it can be measured as the amount of engagement in the game. A game activity should have engagement as much as possible, and it should provide a decent range of win/loss conditions, based on how much you engage. Something is "easy" if merely engagement itself is guaranteed to win, whereas something is "hard" if you need engagement plus additional win conditions to ensure victory. Optimized fun is any state which maximizes engagement, in the sense that you feel like what you did mattered. If something doesn't require engagement at all to win, it's not a game.

e.g. if you're jumping over a pit in a side-scroller, then that's engagement, and the level of fun is dependent on things such as how quickly you jump and whether you can "glide" the controls in the air. the level of difficulty is dependent on such things as how accurate you need to be when you take off, and whether you need to be able to control the thing in the air, and if so, how sensitive it is. If you're guaranteed to make the jump no matter what, it's (not) so "fun", if you lose control for too long (e.g. the jump is too slow) that's not fun either, or if it's too difficult and fiddly then that becomes less fun as well. So you can in fact produce metrics for all those things.

e.g. something is not fun if you don't need to engage enough, or you need to engage too much to win. There should be a good sense that your options of how you engaged lead to the victory or loss condition. So in terms of this physics game, it's tuning the controls to jump a car over a ravine, and the car is a sci-fi one with some glide control from spoilers/wings. I believe we can in fact tune how "fun" that activity is via machine learning (I was using AI as the broad term, because it can really be by any means). e.g. how much is success or failure dependent on the specific controls you press. That can be tuned for directly.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 12:32:41 am
Yeah, and with that sort of setup, you can have co-evolution with the controls too, start with random controls but use genetic algorithms to evolve cases of "better control" meanwhile evolving the physics to make it succeed a certain percentage of the time. You can then evolve "perfect controls" but adjust how much leeway there is with that, so that "good enough" controls will get you across. You actually want to maximize the number of "just made it" or "almost made it" situations. Basically I think a lot of "fun" in twitch-based games comes down to maximizing the chance of edge cases.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 12:36:03 am
Genetic algorithms can be set up with varying levels of mutation. You optimize for a specific level of random mutation around the "sweet spot". if the mutation rate is too low you get all your points being too perfect (usually stuck in a local maximum), the same as too-high mutation rates, you get too much random noise instead of optimization. This is a known factor that can be coded in

So what I was actually meaning was that the genetic algorithm tries to optimize things to get the best jump, but it has a fairly high mutation rate which would simulate the player hitting different keys, and against that mutation rate, the physics optimizes for a predefined chance of success.

Mutation rate for the player controls, and success chance for the jump would be the two hard-coded parameters. (EDIT: I'd also want to optimize things such as you're pressing keys as often as possible, e.g. a higher level of engagement is necessary).

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 12:45:19 am
I'm not sure what you're talking about now, because it's given that we have a model of the car and the ravine that we are working with. You just time step the thing in the existing code.

You don't need the machine learning to create a model of that, it just needs to push the buttons and see what happened. Then the physics parameters and the controls being pushed get optimized in convergent genetic algorithms. none of that requires you to have equations for the thing you're optimizing, that's why you are using machine learning, so you don't have to have equations for it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 12:48:33 am
The game engine has the model already. You don't need to come up with a "mathematical model" of the underlying equations whatsoever. That's what the genetic algorithm is about.

you have inputs, which are the physics parameters, and the car driving controls. Both are set up according to the genetic algorithm. Then you have the model, which is the physics code of the game itself. You run the physics code with the parameters then you get metrics back, and do the whole genetic algorithm thing until your population of GA's gets the required result the right amount of the time.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 13, 2017, 12:50:31 am
Fun metrics are an interesting question.

Controllable character behavior variations.
Tactical depth on a scale from rock-paper-scissors through chess through [some suitably deep tactical game].
Control scheme manipulation options, the vanilla df layout is awful for adventurer mode as far as my taste goes, but it can be altered in numerous ways so I was able to find a fun comfortable useful setup.
Difficulty vs progression, being given everything from the start is boring, working hard for nothing is frustrating, working hard for interesting new [tools/options/abilities/accessible areas/storylines] is not.
Playthrough variations, how many ways can the choices you make influence how the game responds, and does the game offer reasons to explore these options and discover new content.

As some examples of various parts of those scales that stand out to me: Metal Warriors (SNES), Way of the Samurai 2 (PS2), sandbox-era GTA games (various), DF (various), Gran Turismo # (PS#), Star Control (Genesis), X-com (the old PC one), and Armored Core # (only played up to the PS2 versions).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 12:52:15 am
I think we're using different definitions of the word "model" here.

What I mean is a function f(t) which, for any given value of t with 0<=t<=inf, describes the position of your car, given user inputs under whatever probability distribution we've applied to them.

but that's not how machine learning is applied. You don't need to come up with a theoretical model of the thing you're optimizing, you just need the thing, inputs and outputs, and a metric.

in this case the thing is the game, the inputs are the controls and physics constants, and the output is what happened in the game when you applied those things. The metric is how you rate a specific set of inputs, and you then raise or lower their score, mutate them, then run more trials until you get something close to what you asked for.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 12:56:12 am
Uh, the game's code does that. We are trying to optimize an existing piece of code btw.

Let's take it to a 2D example. If you were trying to optimize the difficulty of a Super Mario jump you just run the jump inside the game's code, while mutating G.A. code that does the jump with slightly different control pushes. The more forgiving the controls (i.e. the further from optimal the Genetic Algorithm can go and still make the jump) is a direct metric of the difficulty of the jump.

again, you don't need a "mathematcal model" of how jumping works, because you've got the code of the game to run trials in.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 12:59:50 am
Is it a singular function which determines, given the set of all the user's inputs, whether they make it across the ravine or not, as a function of time?

Or is it just plopping the car on a ramp in whatever physics simulation and seeing whether they can make it or not?

You run the simulation inside the code itself. It's sort of the entire point of machine learning. If you're coming up with a theoretical mathematical model, then that's not machine learning because it's not shaped by the thing you're trying to measure.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 01:01:24 am
You are making less and less sense now. What is your point?

The thing is, you have the game, you can set up the specific point in time, run the car over the ravine thousands of times and you collect data. You then optimize things in the way I described. it's a statistical process, and you don't need to develop any "theoretical" model because it's all about empirical data. That's the basis of machine learning.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 01:05:30 am
Uh, I described that in detail already.

it would be optimizing the difficulty of the jump, and by difficulty, I mean you can tune the system in terms of how sensitive it is to the exact controls you hit. Genetic algorithms are statistical, you have mutation and selection pressures, so you can tune the exact amount of variation in a genetic algorithm population. Then you co-evolve the physics constants used in the model so that the average chance of success of the genetic algorithm population is constant.

So, a genetic algorithm for the exact timing of the button presses, with a specific mutation rate gives you a spread of button-pushes around the "ideal" set of button pushes. Meanwhile the physics settings are also being adjusted against that, to maintain a ratio of wins/losses.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 13, 2017, 01:07:33 am
Player interaction leverages the game's physic model. Unless the AI is also muddling the physics engine (better to use two different AIs with different design goals for that, that just provide tips to each other if you want full automated evolution) one can perform trials using the physics engine, because it can be treated as a constant, and not a dependent variable.

EG, if your design optimisation is limited to "I want a challenging but fun level layout, using Super Mario Bros engine", the former AI can handle this. If your design optimisation is limited to "Players say the physics are wonky, and not fun to play with--" then the datasets used may include video captures of objects falling/colliding/exploding, along with capture data from its engine, and player interaction.  The former is a very different AI from the latter.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 01:09:17 am
How long does it take for a single simulation to run?

How many cars can you put in a game at once? How fast could it run if you turn graphics off? If you turn car-car collisions off I imagine you could jump hundreds of cars over the ravine at once. Kind of the whole point of genetic algorithms is that they are a parellel processing operation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 13, 2017, 01:10:46 am
Isn't that a derivation of the halting problem?

It also has shades of travelling salesman.

The AI is an optimisation AI-- It looks for better solutions. If it happens upon the absolute mathematical ideal early on, it will continue to test other cases, until it has exhaustively concluded that it has found the global ideal solution given its dataset and rules constraints.

How "lucky" do you think this AI is?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 01:12:15 am
Well say it's 5 seconds to do the jump then sequentially you could test another configuration every 5 seconds, that's assuming you don't turn off anything else in the game such as graphics and you don't multi-task it. If you're running the engine anyway you might as well implement the maximum number of cars the engine can support while doing this.

But the bigger question would be "how many generations does a genetic algorithm take to reach stability". to which the answer is "not that many". Genetic algorithms aren't some pie in the sky future tech, they're a widely used technique.

I also think that this idea would be more robust than hand-tuning. After all, someone hand-tuning the controls only has their own input to tune against, rather than tuning for a range of player inputs. And they are usually "winging it" rather than tuning against any sort of objective metric.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 13, 2017, 01:36:50 am
Which at best, discovers local maxima, given a set of conditions. (There is no perfectly evolved lifeform, for example-- as this is exactly how natural evolution works too.) There can be several local maxima of equal merit within a given solution space though. 

Do you create additional AIs to systemically exclude tested solution spaces being attempted by other AIs given the same task, then review the data from all those AIs? ;)

How long does that take?

(what I am getting at here, is that this is a rather silly set of questions to ask-- These AIs are not being presented with a time constraint, unless one is artificially imposed, which will then only result in even more "localised" local maxima, because the simulation depth is kept small for expediency. There is only so much low hanging fruit.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 01:37:29 am
It'd be a lot less that that as I said, you could run as many trials as you can run cars. Plus you could turn all non-essential things such as graphics to the minimum. Tuning by genetic algorithm is an extremely common situation in games development.

And often genetic algorithms are used for such things as training the AI in an RTS, which obviously takes more than 10 seconds a trial. If they are already successfully applied in training and entire RTS AI, then optimizing a single jump in an arcade game is clearly going to take a shorter time per trial.

Here for example is a case of a guy who trained a genetic algorithm to play tetris:
https://luckytoilet.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/coding-a-tetris-ai-using-a-genetic-algorithm/

And this recent one, some guy used genetic algorithms to beat pros at Super Smash Bros
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2122452-ai-beats-professional-players-at-super-smash-bros-video-game/

You seem bewildered by what I'm suggesting, but it's a lot more tame than what other people are already doing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 01:45:08 am
But you weren't arguing that before, and you are now. You brought up a whole slew of technical objections completely unrelated to "fun" in any sense, now you're shifting the goalposts after I brought up relevant counterpoints to your points. And I did in fact lay out the whole technical side of it right from the start.

I'd also argue that it might be bullshit that humans can tune physics setting for "fun" any more than a machine can. With automated learning you can control exactly how sensitive the controls are and the chance of success/failure, along with measuring how engaged the player is with the controls. If the player is just holding the same button down all the time, then you can rate the level of engagement necessary as being lower than an equivalent game where you need to change controls. e.g. a racing game where you hold the accelerator down 100% of the time is less engaging than one where you need to ease off on tight corners. And this is something you can in fact quantify. in fact, a human might suck more at this process than an algorithm, since the human can only tune it against their own level of skill, rather than tuning it against a range of possible inputs.

Given the existing parts of the game, I really doubt human "gut feeling" is actually going to be much better than that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 13, 2017, 02:01:16 am
What you are trying to assert, is that qualia cannot be judged by an impartial algorithm.  I will disagree with that assertion. It will just reach different conclusions than that of humans at the worst case, or will reach the same conclusions in a different way at the best.

The requirement is that it reaches the same conclusion, not how it does it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 02:01:47 am
@Ispil, But you then stated unrelated objections to a variety of things I said, which is a clear case of goalpost shifting. If, whenever you make a point, someone objects to each point based on entirely unrelated things, which are non sequiters, then it's clearly a case of objecting merely for the sake of objecting, by that point.

Like you were objecting based on the idea that I needed to come up with equations for the underlying processes, which isn't a valid point because that's nothing to do with how machine learning even works. The entire point of machine learning is that it's used to optimize something when you lack the knowledge of the equation you're trying to solve. GAs and NNs are expressly for cases when you don't know the equation, so you want to approximate the solution iteratively.

Co-evolution is for cases when you don't even know what question to ask, so you have one GA optimizing itself to win, and the other GA optimizing to beat that GA. This was the case I suggested could be used to both train a "controller" to do a jump, but the "system" to optimize the difficulty of the jump (in terms of how precise you need to be to make the jump).

then you were saying the GA would take to long to run. Which, come on, is a pretty silly objection since GAs are a very well established technology, and that argument has nothing to do with anything else, and since GAs are fundamentally a parallel algorithm, you can be running thousands of trials at once, so the time to produce one trial is effectively moot. Take a look at those genetic algorithm car game websites that were popular on bay12 a while ago. Those start with completely random cars and within a small number of generations only "good" cars are left running. And the generation time is far more than 5-10 seconds.

None of those objections had any connection to your main point, they were merely objections for sake of objecting.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: kilakan on April 13, 2017, 02:15:46 am
Not that I've read your discussion at all, but I now want a machine I can hook up to my body to measure body, chemical and neurological responses indicative of engagement and satisfaction.  Just so I can get a definitive feedback of how much fun I am having at any one time. 

This is realistically just a PTW though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 13, 2017, 06:21:04 am
At my new work, they spend a lot of time fine-tuning this particular physics simulation in this game, by hand, and this has to be re-done whenever they change any of the related settings, so I wondered whether some sort of AI could actually optimize that sort of thing for you, they scoffed and explained "you can't optimize for fun". but isn't this just another example of people thinking that their job can't be automated?
If by "fun" you try to ensure that the inclusion of the Osmium Billhook into the higher-tier equipment lists majorly disadvantages every other choice of weapon, or failing to adjust the Three-Handed Nunchuck mechanics means that it is effectively nerfed against anybody capable of stockpiling the Potion Of Indeterminacy (that one readjusted in the light of adding the Visor Of LaForge), then it might well be useful to pre-screen such changes to ensure any intended Rock/Paper/Scissors(/Lizard/Spock) equivalence of dominance is still there, so as not to misbalance the playing styles.

And obviously simulating all combinations of a complex system is time-consuming, even as a developer with all the at hand.

(As a basic example, I give you this (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Mods) little conundrum, atop this other (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Vehicles) base, against all possible opponents (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Combat) then further complicated by the economies of supply and demand, which I can attest is a problem that does not quietly suffer a full brute force solution even in the middle tiers. For me, it was just an intellectual exercise, that outlived my actual interest in the game by many months, finding a less memory-intensive and nuanced bracketting system that yet sought out 'joker' combinations that stood out from the obvious crowd...)

But if you can run many of your game universes in parallel (and at full throttle), for the sake of suitably exploratory agents to 'play' in parallel against all PvE and PvP encounters and ensure that there are no hulking big blind-spots where fun-sinks occur (and also, along the way, tune your hard-coded NPC opponents to not be too hard or too easy against a particular standard of PC adventurer/whatever). It's probably a worthwhile exercise.

Depends on how much you can emulate a player, though.  Through a whole lot of real Skinner's Pigeons, players may well discover that a step back and to the left actually does convey a disproportionate attack advantage for the next three strikes. There's another web-game I play where counting to a certain number between initiated attacks, in a usually non-time-sensitive situation, seems to get one a succession of successes that one would not normally expect, and I have the impression that I'm exploiting cycles of periodic local maxima (or perhaps avoiding the minima, or maybe just sufficient  threshold-breaking in whatever direction) in the PRNG algorithm behind the scenes.


...erm. In short, you probably could take the players out of the equation, if you could get your virtual testers to be as tenacious and adaptable as your human ones before you then got them to run at hyperspeed across many parallel games, 24/7 to accomplish the work faster.  But, for that, you'd need to get a separate skillset in someone who could create your Virtual Testers for you, with at least a decent playing history as well.  (There's this kind of thing... (http://sscaitournament.com/))
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 13, 2017, 06:53:14 am
Or is it just plopping the car on a ramp in whatever physics simulation and seeing whether they can make it or not?
Probably double-posting, I didn't realiae how far back I was when I made the last response, probably out of date (if this one isn't).

For the car on the ramp, take Hill Climb Racing (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fingersoft.hillclim) as a perfect example. A jump in the game is possible if there exists for all practical vehicles1 an opportunity to make the jump (or get up the hill, or make the distance between on fuelcan and the next).  But if there is just one possible way of doing this (you must have landed correctly from the prior jump, to give exactly enough run-up to scrape over the gap without also hitting your head on the ceiling obstruction), then it's a chore, especially if it's a chore that needs to be accomplished in order to endure the next chore...

What makes it "fun" is to encourage finessing (e.g. make it interesting to initiate a vehicle flip, on departure from the initial ramp, the spinning vehicle gaining more coins/buffering wheels-first against the roof/just looking more fun when you end up landing the right way up again) which means a range of speeds and take-off-point acc(/dec)elerations and subtle combinations of suspension compressions from the immediately prior landings on bumpy ground should still give you your successful jump, and if the player is fed up of face-planting (neck-flipping) continually when attempting a double forward somersault over a gap, then they ought to be able to remember that immediately after that particular wobbly bridge (or balanced girder, or whatever) they might want to only risk the one somersault, then retard their spin (unless they feel like chancing it!). But there should always be a not knife-sharp ridge of possibility. Hit/release the gas/brake peddle just too late/early, or with anything but exactly the right run-up profile and it should be touch-and-go, but not doomed to failure, and it should still be recoverable (with quick wits) so that the follow-up section of track isn't absolutely impossible.

But emulating every single nuance of vehicle control (especially if that involves finding the microsecond-perfect drum-beat upon the peddles necessary to turn a near neck-flip into a triumphant interception of the necessary refuelling icon pick-up) is impractical and does nothing to increase the "fun". Ensure that there's a 'corridor' of success, that merely narrows (multidimensionally) the further along the generated/painted track, by whatever means you (as developer) do it.


1 And possibly for a certain minimum combination of vehicle upgrades, scaling higher further along the track, but ideally never exceeding the maximum upgrades.  Noting that some higher-spec upgrades can make "dumb flat-out driving" less 'safe' than when at a lower level of upgrade.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 13, 2017, 07:47:07 am
I imagine they would stick a max time on the damn thing. Which is what I'm asking for.
Who is sticking me where? The ™ is pronounced "Thyme" since it's how I sign my name.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 09:54:27 am
(As a basic example, I give you this (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Mods) little conundrum, atop this other (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Vehicles) base, against all possible opponents (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Combat) then further complicated by the economies of supply and demand, which I can attest is a problem that does not quietly suffer a full brute force solution even in the middle tiers. For me, it was just an intellectual exercise, that outlived my actual interest in the game by many months, finding a less memory-intensive and nuanced bracketting system that yet sought out 'joker' combinations that stood out from the obvious crowd...)

Actually that looks fairly trivial compared to stuff they did a long time ago.

Google Eurisko. Basically, back in the pen and paper days they had a competition to design and play space battles using Traveller rules.
http://aliciapatterson.org/stories/eurisko-computer-mind-its-own
Quote

On the July 4 weekend of 1981, while many Americans were preoccupied with barbecues or fireworks displays, players of an immensely complex, futuristic war game called Traveller gathered in San Mateo, California, to pick a national champion. Guided by hundreds of pages of design rules and equipment specifications, players calculate how to build a fleet of ships that will defeat all enemies without exceeding an imaginary defense budget of one trillion credits.

To design just one vessel, some fifty factors must be taken into account: how thick to make the armor, how much fuel to carry, what type of weapons, engines, and computer guidance system to use. Each decision is a tradeoff: a powerful engine will make a ship faster, but it might require carrying more fuel; increased armor provides protection but adds weight and reduces maneuverability.

Since a fleet may have as many as 100 ships -exactly how many is one more question to decide -the number of ways that variables can be juxtaposed is overwhelming, even for a digital computer. Mechanically generating and testing every possible fleet configuration might, of course, eventually produce a winner, but most of the computer's time would be spent blindly considering designs that are nonsense. Exploring Traveller's vast "search space," as mathematicians call it, require the ability to learn from experience, developing heuristics -rules of thumb -about which paths are most likely to yield reasonable solutions.

In 1981, Eurisko, a computer program that arguably displays the rudiments of such skills, easily won the Traveller tournament, becoming the top-ranked player in the United States and an honorary Admiral in the Traveller navy. Eurisko had designed its fleet according to principles it discovered itself -with some help from its inventor, Douglas B. Lenat, an assistant professor in Stanford University's artificial-intelligence program.

"I never did actually play Traveller by hand," Lenat said, three years later. "I don't think I even watched anybody play it. I simply talked to people about it and then had the program go off and design a fleet. When I went into the tournament that was the first time that I had ever played the game."

Eurisko's fleet was so obviously superior to those of its human opponents that most of them surrendered after the first few minutes of battle; one resigned without firing a shot.

...



"They changed the rules significantly and didn't announce the final new set of rules until a week or so before the next tournament," Lenat said. "The first year that would have not been enough time for me to run the program to converge on a winning fleet design." But Eurisko had learned heuristics that were general and powerful enough that they could be applied to new versions of the game.

"We won again and they were very unhappy and they basically asked us not to compete again. They said that if we entered and won in 1983 they would discontinue the tournaments. And I had no desire to see that happen." So Eurisko retired undefeated.

Yeah, we'll I'd say if you're having a problem now with optimizing against some ruleset it's not the fault of the tools ... people were using modified genetic algorithms to solve similar problems almost 40 years ago. And remember this guy never even played the game, he just coded a genetic algorithm to try and devise some design rules via evolutionary means. Basically he tweaked things by having the system work on the meta-design level. e.g. it would code rules such as "adding more guns is a good idea", then when it needed to redesign the ships it would pick rules at random, and if those rules were correlated with improvements, they'd get a higher weight on the next round. It's not really rocket science.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 10:20:39 am
My main point is that the idea of "fun" might be a red herring. We can quantify things such as difficulty and how much you need to engage to complete a task. At least for twitch-based games.

Then we can in fact optimize things so that outcomes are clustered near the success/failure point, which I'd argue, is where the "fun" of physical twitch-based challenges lie: the tipping point between success and failure. And with a genetic algorithm feeding "player controls" in we can simulate variation in input simply via the GA mutation rate in the inputs, which would give a metric on how difficult the task is (i.e. how exact or sloppy you can be and still win).

So you could tune a challenge such as jumping over a pit, so that you need to be about 60% accurate with your controls, and you have about a 70% chance of making the jump at that level of accuracy. And you also keep metrics such as how many "close calls" there are, and you rate physics simulation / level design settings which maximize those close calls as the highest. So in a limited context such as arcade games, I'd argue you can totally automate metrics for fun.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 11:48:23 am
Ok back on the tech track ... more info showing what a lovely example of corporate culture Uber is:
https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/04/13/1452215/ubers-hell-program-tracked-and-targeted-lyft-drivers

Quote
According to The Information, the ride-hailing company's covert software-based program called "Hell" spied on its staunchest competitor's drivers from 2014 to early 2016. It's called Hell, because it served as the counterpart to "God View" or "Heaven," Uber's in-company app that tracked its own drivers and passengers. Unlike God View, which was widely available to corporate employees, only top executives along with select data scientists and personnel knew about Hell. The program apparently started when Uber decided to create fake Lyft rider accounts and fooled its rival's system into thinking they were in various locations around the city. Those fake riders were positioned in a grid to give Uber the entire view of a city and all of Lyft's drivers within it. As a result, the company can see info on up to eight of its competitor's nearest drivers per fake rider.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 13, 2017, 01:14:33 pm
(As a basic example, I give you this (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Mods) little conundrum, atop this other (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Vehicles) base, against all possible opponents (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Combat) then further complicated by the economies of supply and demand, which I can attest is a problem that does not quietly suffer a full brute force solution even in the middle tiers. For me, it was just an intellectual exercise, that outlived my actual interest in the game by many months, finding a less memory-intensive and nuanced bracketting system that yet sought out 'joker' combinations that stood out from the obvious crowd...)

Actually that looks fairly trivial compared to stuff they did a long time ago.
With an intelligent solution, it's not bad, but I mentioned Brute Force.

Let us imagine we're only interested in Blue vehicles (top of the Green<Blue middling tier, and capable of using Yellow/Green/Blue mods and weapons) so willing to assume that sub-blue vehicles aren't worth bothering with, with their generally inferior stats and ability, whilst staying away from the Red+ tier that gets darned expensive).

From the Chopper with 6 slots to the the tractor has 15 slots of capacity, you can try to fit in 36 different mods (the 12 blue ones are the best, but they take up two slots, so you can't ignore the Y/G ones), and any slots you don't want to fill with Mods you might want to (or need to, due to the mods you have chosen) put Y/G/B weapons (15 possible types, but can be simplified to the three*(slots filled) combined Attack plus Defence scores you need to "denullify", and any remainder Attack+Defence you  can just make subvariants with all overflow bonus as attack through to all overflow bonus as defence, then when you try to 'build' your vehicle you can choose which combination of the five Blue weapons does what you need, but you can ignore that for now.  And for cargo-carrying (or highway robbery) purposes, you need at least one capacity kept spare to do anything useful, so not-totally-filled-slots combos are important.

Take the Tractor. 15 capacity, fully Brute Forced you'd permute a 15-bit bitstream. You can actually do some intelligent jumping based on capacity overloading prohibiting many of the permutations, so it isn't 215 combinations. You can also do some intelligent pruning by keeping note of other deficit (sub-zero) stats, not just the Cap, and comparing to the available 'buying power' from the rest of the bitstream yet-to-be-decided. But it's still a bit intensive.

Thus you get all possible vehicles. To save time later, store the 'template' of this valid (but yet to be tested) vehicle 'build' as a record of some kind.  Vehicle ID (of five, so three bits maximum, but that's only if you're cutting the bitwise footprint of the record to the bone), plus which mods (15 bits) plus what (surplus) Attack and or Defence you have (or derivable), plus untouched capacity value. You might as well just store all the resulting buffed/nerfed stats (which you have ensured do not fall below zero) on the record, to avoid having to recalculate each time you pull it. If you value storage space over CPU cycles you can asking for recalculation, each time, but you'll be calling those calculations a lot.

I can't remember exactly how many 'valid vehicle combinations' there were, but ISTR that (in a non-combative, recordless dry-run) my counter tallied up a figure was in the trillions, and that may well have been the long-measure trillions that I like to use, not the short-measure one I'd be using in conversation with others.


So, now, if you're looking for an optimal vehicle, you need to 'send it out' against opponents. Potential trading vehicles (defensively) against prospective Highwaymen (offensively) we already have on record, Highwaymen (aggressively) against (passive) Traders and Highwaymen vs Guards in offensive vs offensive battle.  So for each vehicle you add to the stack, you need to pit it against all vehicles already on the stack in all combinations of combat (though you could ignore trying a vehicle as a Trader that had zero capacity left, unless you just wanted to send out 'spoiler' vehicles) and keep a tally of win/lose/draw totals in each capacity, within that vehicle's record (with the corresponding result increment in the opponent's tally, already having been previously tried against its predecessor permutations, now needing to remember how well it does against its successor ones).
A trillion-or-so successors fighting each other (and themselves, I suppose). Factorial of a trillion or more.  Doesn't really bare thinking about (long or short trillions!).

So that idea is clearly out, and I didn't even try it.  (It can be done for Yellow-tierers, as that was my proof of concept, but forget a full Blue vs Blue (every possible valid combination) matchup tournament.)

The way I optimised it was to use "ziggurated batches". Some arbitrary number of vehicles (at a time) would be "zeroth level" matched, every vehicle from this subset against every vehicle from this subset, enough to contain (say) twenty different vehicles per 'role' per vehicle types represented. Once I hit that limit, I culled off all vehicles combos that were not in the top ten (of any particular role for any particular vehicle), and put them into the newly-created 1st level, emptying the zeroth level cohort and rezeroing the promoted vehicles' win/lose/draw statistics, and restarting filling the zeroth from the next permutation. Except that when the first-level cohort numbered more than twice the zeroth one limit, I matched all first-levelers so accumulated against each other and (by the same top-ten-in-anything measure) bumped the ones that I needed up to the second-level tier (clearing their w/l/d stats and the first-level 'waitlist').  Etc.  The second-level tier had three times the base capacity (really, the multiple was level#+1 from a zero-base...  It could have been straight level# from a 1-base, but that' s how I coded it.) Until the very last permutations passed into the zeroth level, when promotion and re-fighting happened straight off at each level to get the (worthy) stragglers competing with each other until the "ten best FOOs" lists got generated at the top. Not actually proven every-combo-vs-every-combo, but the test at Yellow and Green level complexities (against the raw results of the more brutal of brute force run-throughs) indicated something of a reasonable match between the results of the two methods.

Again, can't quite remember the limits I applied, but with the (increasingly generous capacities of each new layer of the ziggurat, even given the much larger amount of culling/non-promotion) I think it topped out at Level 8 or perhaps 9 in the "final all vs all" competition, after a very long continuous run.  (I truly regret not having put a SIGINT catcher into the code, to sanely dump all existing data to file, ready to be picked up again on the next start-up, perhaps even to let me move it onto new hardware. But once the latest version of it was running, it was running, and I didn't like to stop it.)


How to do it less brute-forcedly?  Assign a number (100? 1000?) separate, or at least faux-concurrent, agents a vehicle. Let them pick and choose a mod to add, and check it for viability (no sub-zero stats), and let them choose another mod (or combination of weapon buffs) if necessary to bring it back into validity.  Take the best (by 'top-ten'ness, maybe twenty...), split and multiply across the 'design teams' for another adjustment (add, remove, change - plus further changes that might be needed to make this variant also valid). Rinse, repeat.  Noting that this random walk may well miss out on huge areas of evolutionary landscape where a true 'killer' combination actually resides, that intelligent study might well have discovered.

Maybe I'll try that, though, and compare it to whatever results I can still pick up from my prior experiment.  (But I aint running that again... Not without the abort/continue safety net, at least. ;))


((And this is before working out the 'genetic algorithm' bit, I know, but my point was on the brutalist approach.))
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 13, 2017, 05:24:54 pm
Actually a better way might be to work out what the average cost of each type of upgrade point is, then use a genetic algorithm to work out what your optimal point-spread would be based on average costs, fight these entirely generic "cars" against each other, then run a separate GA to try and find car combos that match that optimal design as close as possible. And/or taking a leaf out of the book written by Eurisko, you run tournaments of randomly designed cars. You then adjust the "score" of every part based on how well the overall car did. After enough rounds then some parts will have higher scores than overs. To get even cleverer, you cross-reference parts by pairs, e.g. if two parts together positively correlate to performance (as an average over lots of cars) then you can give those an additional factor when they're in the same car.

However, your main point was that rock-paper-scissors type relations need to be preserved by any automated balancing. Sure, but you can in fact specify that as a design criteria going into the system. e.g. "cars with high attack items should beat cars with high defense", and you can have the system work within that constraint. Also, running genetic car tournaments as described above would ensure the balance exists as desired. Hand crafting a bunch of weapon tables on the assumption that there won't be any game-breaking exploits actually sounds less promising here. If a computer can merely try out billions of combos and that's not enough to rule out exploits, then how can you rate humans highly at detecting exploits? Humans shouldn't delude themselves about their ability to permutate all possible combinations of a numerical system. Humans tend to design things by simple rules of thumb and to mentally disregard "unlikely" sounding combos automatically. So human's abilities in this regard give them a quicker route to some answers at the expense of pruning large sections of the tree without considering them.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 13, 2017, 06:25:59 pm
The cost of upgrades is most simply "loss of spare cargo capacity". At least as far as taking up the Trader of Highwayman professions, is concerned.  There's the fluctuating costs (directly, or in buying/renting the mines from which you become the first owner of any items) of in-game currency needed to obtain the equipment (and bolts to attach it all!), but the markets could be fickle, so I left the weighting of that factor at barely significant.

And there's the difficulty of both multiple parallel metrics1 and a round-robin dominance strategy2, which complicates the topography of which combo is 'better'.

And did I forget to mention Gadgets (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Gadgets), that give time-limited bonuses, that I didn't even bother to try to model (as possessed by oneself or one's hypothetical opponent), and Meld Boosts (http://wiki.minethings.com/index.php?title=Category:Melds) to the Armour values (which could easily de-negate an armour-negative Mod, like the missile turret, even making an invalid build opetate validly again) are another thing you might wish to consider adding (at least to the representative foe-setup) as a variant value, even if you plugged your own current value into the combat simulator.

You see why I stuck with the problem longer than I did the game it applied to, though. ;)


1 Trader setup (that must have at least one cargo slot) which does well against Highwaymen of all kinds; Highwayman setup (that probably ought to have cargo space for spoils) which dominates against Traders and holds its own against Guards; Guards (which can 'liberate' stolen items from Highwaymen, but probably just needs to cause them problems) who have to work against the top Highwaymen.

2 Dodge beats Offence, Offence beats Defence, Defence beats Attack, Attack beats Dodge. Though as Offence only helps non-Traders, this might be a useful polarising point in the incomplete circle of dominance.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 14, 2017, 02:09:05 am
Well you know me, as a curmudgeon I am obligated to take part in any opportunity to shout to the world "FUCK YOUR ADS, GET OFF MY LAWN" and proudly do so.

Hah, I'm such an ass that like 90% of those can't even be set because I refuse to let the type of cookie necessary on my browser.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 14, 2017, 02:13:22 am
I must be incurably cynical.

To me, all these advert firms will do when given the finger like this, is wonder why people dont want their amazing services, then go out of their way to target the people who opted out. Kinda like the whole "do not track" flag.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 14, 2017, 03:15:49 am
They're still going to serve you ads, but I think the idea is that you're saying "I'm going to go out of my way to avoid products if you try to serve ads based on my activities" or at least it is in my case. If I like your site I'll turn off adblock so you get revenue, but I'm keeping the userscript so the ads are just blank gray panels, and if your ads make it through that then I'm deliberately going to avoid that product and hunt down whatever loophole allowed it because fuck you, but that's also a reflex from growing up when pop-up blocking wasn't a thing and autoplaying audio with no mute button was totally acceptable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 14, 2017, 03:19:37 am
You make me feel old. I remember when the internet was mostly email, newsgroups, and IRC.

I remember when advertisements on the internet were not a thing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 14, 2017, 03:56:26 am
My first internet experience was compuserve back in 1992 or 1993, which made seeing AOL commercials with "you've got mail!" surreal later on.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 14, 2017, 05:18:19 am
I remember when advertisements on the internet were not a thing.
UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of  this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 14, 2017, 11:48:14 am
INSEMINATION of this ENTOURAGE or DISCUSSION of ENTOURAGE or OBSERVATION of ENTOURAGE is, on the other hand, not CONDUCIVE to REPRODUCTION, but yeah, that's why I'm so virulently anti-advertising. No-ads+paying for a service to ads everywhere+paying for a service was a big fuck you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on April 14, 2017, 01:13:27 pm
I remember when advertisements on the internet were not a thing.

Right wing commentators would now lead us to believe that advertising is responsible for the existence of the internet.  ROFL.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 14, 2017, 03:53:30 pm
Advertisements made the internet great again, after it had been usurped from it's free-market creators by the communists at university colleges.

Even now, communistic internet "standards bodies" are holding back the development of the internet. We need competing web standards, with internet sections gated according to which standards they use. This maximizes commercial opportunity (providing data translation services between the various standards and areas of the internet) and provides a fertile competition, which will benefit the consumer.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 14, 2017, 08:00:52 pm
I feel like posting that America, Fuck Yeah! video again.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on April 14, 2017, 08:49:38 pm
Where'd all the AI talk go?  :o

Regardless of method (neural net, genetic algorithm, etc.) the interesting limitation of modern AI is that it is still subject to the limitations imposed on it by the selection of the input set and the final "value" criterion that indicates if the mapping of inputs-to-outputs is "desirable" or "undesirable".

For instance, it's amusing to, say, take the Go neural net and feed it the binary representation of, oh, I dunno a game of DF and see what outputs it generates.  Can those AIs do things like "uh... that input makes no sense, yo, stop feeding me nonsense!" or will they just simply try to interpret it as a new in-context input?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: itisnotlogical on April 14, 2017, 09:09:15 pm
From my understanding of machine learning, whatever input you get depends on how you've trained it. If you haven't trained the neural net, it might as well be random. The idea is that you give it a set of inputs with known outputs, and tell it "No, that's wrong" until it starts giving you the results you expect.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: itisnotlogical on April 14, 2017, 09:16:17 pm
There actually was an AI that did very well at several NES games. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-WgQcnessA) Of course the difference is that the AI isn't "playing" the game as we understand it by looking at the screen, it's reading values out of memory every frame and directly activating controller inputs. It actually doesn't do very well at Mario, but is god-tier at Gradius.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: helmacon on April 14, 2017, 09:49:19 pm
Just because it isnt incredibly useful in the way you imagine dosnt mean it's not incredibly useful in some other way. Google's project magenta has done some pretty cool stuff with classifying and ordering sounds in ways that make sense to us, but would be difficult or near impossible to do ourselves.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 14, 2017, 10:02:25 pm
Ipsil, that's just some guy's single home-brew program, yet it's able to go in blind into a wide variety of game types and do ok at them. e.g. it kicks the ass of a side-scrolling space shooter or pinball without needing to be told anything about how those genres work. That's far more universal than you're giving it credit for.

Notice that he mentions that for Mario he needed to tell it extra information such a "prioritize extra lives" etc, but that then worked for every mario level he threw it at. That also implies he didn't need to do such things for the other games.

The video represents a single guys homemade AI program being thrown up against games it's never been told about. You cannot infer anything about the limits of AI/machine learning as a whole from that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 14, 2017, 11:11:36 pm
I'm not treating it like magic, I proposed using it for an extremely limited use case. Then you made a bunch of objections which looked a lot like changing the goalposts constantly, like you were gunning to prove it wrong no matter what, even if there's no logical connection between the varied points you're making.

Remember what I original proposed, which was using it to tune the jump physics for an arcade game by co-evolving the challenge parameters against the jumper AI, so that there was a controllable rate of failure/victory based on your accuracy with the controls. None of that is treating machine leaning like "magic", you're just plainly strawmanning now. Adding insult to the other fallacious arguments you've already deployed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 14, 2017, 11:18:25 pm
The other one that was brought up was Starver's vehicle design challenge, with the trillions of possible loadouts. I pointed at Eurisko as a type of solution that can be applied to that sort of thing. You mutate a set of heuristics that are used in a car-designed engine, instead of directly mutating car designs themselves. That's not calling it "magic" either, it's just realizing that you can mutate car design rules instead of directly mutating the cars. If you mutate the thing (car) directly then your system is too low-level, and it doesn't learn anything about "what makes a good car", whereas if you mutate sets of design criteria then that system can then build good cars, even with parts it's never heard of.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 14, 2017, 11:23:57 pm
Those people aren't posting in this thread, and the relevant posts were in an unrelated thread about chatbots. It's a bit patronizing to claim you're talking about some unrelated people after you acted like you were slamming the people posting here.

Also I think the "magic" is on the other side. The main claim I made is that some things that others claim are unknowably human are in fact resolvable through machine learning and statistics methods.

It's the people claiming "fun" is this unknowable special snowflake stuff that only humans can design for who believe in magic.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 14, 2017, 11:32:34 pm
I've just been responding to your points all along. You're the one who tried to hack apart what I said, constantly. Now that I started pointing out what you've been doing you're getting upset about it.

I mean, you hacked apart the video itisnotlogical linked, and said "that just proves my point that XYZ is all bullshit".

Quote
Also, that video just goes to show my point- the spread of performance across each game is ridiculously wide, from well-performing on Gradius to being barely able to even play Megaman. It barely even knows how to move in Megaman.

But which point that you made does this relate to? You were hacking apart my idea that machine learning could be used to tune how engaging an arcade game jump was. And now your claiming to have been defending an entirely unrelated point about how you can't create general-purpose AIs? Who was arguing for that? There, you created a whole new argument about something nobody was arguing about.

Previous to the shown video:

Quote
The main issue with machine learning is that algorithms trained for one task tend to suck at any other seemingly-related tasks. You could train a neural net to beat a single level of a Mario game, but I doubt you could make the same neural net beat every single level in the whole game.

The guy 100% proved you wrong, about a statement you made which was 100% assertion and not related to any previous point. You then shift the goalposts when you were proven wrong, and do ad hominems such as accusing people of supporting "magic". Now you want to play the victim.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 14, 2017, 11:45:53 pm
Well the generalization of a neural network is a brain. So actually I'd argue that these are scale and connectivity limitations, and not underlying limitations of the neural approach.

When people talk about the limits of what an NN can do, they are talking about feed-foward layer-based networks (which don't have any loops or time variables involved). Those are not the same as saying neural networks in general, which could have feedback loops and larger structures, as well as memory circuits.

Additionally, genetic algorithms can be turing complete, those are limited by the limits of what is computable. Then that comes down to whether you think human IQ is something beyond turing complete problems and that humans have "magic stuff" in their heads which is beyond computation.

If you want to talk limits.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 14, 2017, 11:55:58 pm
Sorry but at this point I'll have to ask you to make a new thread if you want to talk philosophy.

This is specifically a thread for applied science and technical solutions to existing problems. If you have some ideas on a thing you actually want to build you can discuss them here. It's veered into some machine learning, but that's only OK as long as we're discussing the application of real existing systems and ideas, to specific problems. Slamming down people's ideas based on philosophical concepts or a general "it can't be done!" attitude is against this thread's reason for existence.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: itisnotlogical on April 15, 2017, 12:41:27 am
As for genetic algorithms, they're really useful for incremental improvements towards a solution, but they have a real issue with getting trapped in ruts or local optima.

That's what calculus is for. Of course it's more complicated than that answer indicates, but it's not like there's no way to mathematically pick an optimal solution given a function that represents the relationship between some number of properties.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 15, 2017, 01:32:37 am
which you can only prove after exhaustive elimination of the complete solution space... :( At which point, your genetic algo is not really any better than brute force, aside from reaching a useful local optima sooner.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2017, 02:07:49 am
This is part of the reason that they prefer mutating the bits in the values rather than e.g. adjusting the float values. If you mutate bits directly, then you get big jumps as well as small jumps, so you can scout out a larger search space, instead of just iteratively optimizing to a local minimum. Big jumps massively increase the chance of getting into the "zone" of a different minimum.

Also if you could infer any meta-characteristics of your search space then you could do a much more thorough search. e.g. say your wanted to optimize "find the highest point on Earth" you'd be silly to go over the space millimeter by millimeter, just in case you missed some really thin mountain somewhere. Or if you just start on a random point and walk uphill and expect that to work, that would also be dumb. Nope, you'd sample evenly spread out points on the earth, then you would pick likely points and do a more fine-grained search around those.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 15, 2017, 02:44:32 am
Better understanding of the solution space, and the mechanics of the search, can systematically exclude huge sections of the solution space as well, for being absurd to even attempt seeking solution in.

This is one of the ways some of the more interesting attacks against modern cryptography work.  With the right understanding of the problem, you can prove that certain sets of solutions are not valid-- EG, "we know it is an odd number" which would exclude all even valued solutions to a number search space-- etc.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on April 15, 2017, 06:48:39 am
I can't figure out how, if http://www.earthharpsymphony.com (http://www.earthharpsymphony.com) is actually indeed an acoustic instrument as claimed, how you can get audible frequencies out of strings that long without insane tension in them - which they don't appear to have based on the images (especially with the one set up on a mountain!?).

I suspect that it's just that the strings set up excitations in the resonator on the stage, and the resonators are the actual source of the audible sounds.

A pretty cool engineering / art mix though!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 15, 2017, 07:03:00 am
Looks like instead of strings/wires, they are actually metal rods. In some of the videos I see, (like the america's got talent video), there appear to be toppers on the end.

My guess is that it is actually a stiff metal rod that has a resonant characteristic to leverage self-polyphony of the rod. This would be improved by having a hollow rod, as then the cavity inside the rod would serve as a conduction channel. Depending on where he is holding the rod, the "short side" near the base of the instrument would be the sounding portion, with the long side being only a sympathetic resonance source. If the lengths of the rods are properly computed, self-reinforcing waveforms would propagate in the long end of the rod, from the friction induced resonance of the short end of the rod, through stimulation carried over the air channel inside, via sympathetic resonance.

Just a guess though. It would not need to be so tight, if it was instead stiff.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 15, 2017, 07:14:38 am
The frequency is proportional to the harmonic you're looking for (even if the main harmonic is too 'infra' for you, which it's possible) and the root is proportional to the tension (so too tense and it would be too high for usefulness) and inversely proportional to the length (very long, so very low before you go for harmonics) and root of the string density.

The tension is restrained by the same engineering practicalities that brought you to a 'string' of a given material and density, and (safe) tension only serves to somewhat shift the fundamental harmonic, whilst the 'flavour' of the note could easily be from whichever harmonics we hear rather than could only 'feel'.

At a guess, that's the effect being used.


(Ninjaed, and I couldn't get  much detail from the site, seems to want to display pictures on the RHS, but all I'm getting there is "click to see more" on occqsional 'frames' of background colour that happily scroll but show nothing...)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2017, 08:14:36 pm
...what are you even talking about?

You were the one who brought up the brain part of neural networks before you edited your post. What are you even going on about?


Do you just have a problem with me personally? I'm so confused.

I was just pointing out that getting into discussions about philosophy is too far from what this thread is about. it's for posting tech news. Specifically, news about current applications of technology to solving problems. We were starting to veer into philosophy, and I think that's way too far off course and should have it's own thread. There have been threads about philosophy of mind and hypothetical artificial intelligence before, but doing that again here only dilutes the current topic.

We could have 20 pages of philosowank about the limits of AI without anyone agreeing on anything. I don't think that is beneficial, and it would effectively swamp any actual discussion of tech news under the weight of hypotheticals.

I don't hate you, but you did use an argument technique which consisted of a series of non-sequiter complaints to every little thing wrote (and those individual complaints were almost all either tangential or just plain wrong), when I was pretty clear about what I was proposing the whole time, then you seem to have done some strawmanning and bringing up targeted complaints and when i challenged whether those complaints were valid, you said "i meant people in general not people in this thread". If you meant people not in this thread, don't bring it up in a context that sounds like you're criticizing people here.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2017, 08:34:39 pm
Nobody was making the counter claim however. Remember all I said was that genetic algorithms could be used to tune a single arcade game challenge.

Just on the last point you've been constantly shifting your goalposts:

Quote
The main issue with machine learning is that algorithms trained for one task tend to suck at any other seemingly-related tasks. You could train a neural net to beat a single level of a Mario game, but I doubt you could make the same neural net beat every single level in the whole game.

But then an AI was shown which can play dozens of different games. It can do great at some, not so great at others. But it's the same AI in each case. The mere existence of such an AI disproved your clearly-stated point that an AI couldn't be made that can beat more than a single level of Mario.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2017, 08:39:51 pm
I was responding to your line of conversation when I wrote that.

Now I'm saying we've gone too far off the thread topic.

But I will point out that you shifted the goalposts on your "an AI couldn't beat all levels of mario" argument. Because when the existence of an AI was shown that beats multiple different NES games, you suddenly declared that it wasn't sufficient because it can't beat all NES games.

This was clearly shifting the goalposts from your previous statement that an AI couldn't beat more than a single level of any one game.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2017, 08:43:07 pm
I never made threats to throw you out of the thread. I said to bring it back on topic. And that if you want to talk philosophy then it needs it's own thread. That is not a threat to throw you out of the thread.

And the accusations are just pointing out the exact things you did.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2017, 08:47:29 pm
Yeah I'm twisting your arm to keep posting.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2017, 08:50:24 pm
Man i tried to finish the conversation with the point about how we should both drop it because it's veered way off topic, but you wanted to keep it going after that. How about we do drop it and agree not to post anything non-thread relevant?

Relevant things are tech news links.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2017, 08:51:45 pm
Is that self-reference?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 15, 2017, 08:53:53 pm
I hope I'm not going to regret suggesting that perhaps this is where it should end, whoever the last person to post was before this one (at this rate, it could be either of you, so no chance of favouritism).


((Yep, multiple replies since I started writing this.))

I know I'm sometimes not good at letting things go myself, but...  Well, this is my one post on this meta-subject, the rest I leave up to you...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Toady One on April 16, 2017, 12:55:11 am
I'll go ahead and suggest it too.  Hopefully we can move on without issue, though it is a good chunk of the last 150 posts or something.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 16, 2017, 11:37:19 am
Not sufficient for me though.  Enceladus is part of Saturn's D-Ring. It is electrically connected with Saturn's magnetosphere, and has enough electrical current being injected through it to dissociate the hydrogen from the oxygen in the water vapor plumes being ejected from the moon. (we are talking enough current to drive hydrodynamic forces strong enough to expel a subterene ocean through the moon's crust and out into space here.)

Doesnt this belong in the space thread though?  Spectrometers are not exactly new tech...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 16, 2017, 11:41:16 am
Yeah I was kinda surprised at the lack of reactions
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 16, 2017, 11:58:17 am
Yeah I was kinda surprised at the lack of reactions
With it being hydrogen, I agree. But if it had been helium, a lack of reactions would have been perfectly within expectations...  ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 19, 2017, 12:13:33 pm
...eyyyyyy!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on April 20, 2017, 05:16:57 pm
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/20/524896256/louisianas-governor-declares-state-of-emergency-over-disappearing-coastline

Looks like decades of destroying the environment is finally catching up to them.

all that stuff to "improve the economy" and make companies more money ends up costing more then was made in the end. people need to realize that there exists other forms of capital than economic and they are better off remaining as they are. everyone would do well to remember this.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 21, 2017, 09:36:17 am
Figured this has to be shared here, as it's tech news: http://cheezburger.com/1981189/fail-blog-enabled-juicer-gets-properly-skewered-by-internet-after-hilarious-fail-of-a-revelation

*still giggling over Gateradero*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 24, 2017, 02:30:44 pm
Well damn, apparently firefox will be getting rid of the last remaining reason to use it over other browsers, the customizable ui options which were removed by the australis update and re-enabled with the xul/css add-on classic theme restorer? Not gonna be an option with the new webextension addons:
https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2016/11/23/add-ons-in-2017/ (the announcement was kinda abrupt)
https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/ (months later it's still a shock)
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/WebExtensions/Comparison_with_XUL_XPCOM_extensions#UI (going from "literally do what you will" to "you can still add a button or context menu entry!" apparently)
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/SDK/High-Level_APIs/ui (so we go from an endlessly tweaked toolbox)
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/WebExtensions/User_interface_components (to a sanitized handful of basic options)
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/WebExtensions/Add_a_button_to_the_toolbar (weee, a fucking button)

So now I'm going from being able to use the "infinite depth" of the top edge as a target so I can just run my cursor up at the desired target and hit it:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

To not even being able (as of yet) to invert the url bar/tab ordering.

So instead of flicking upwards I have to adjust downwards slightly to hit the x on a tab (or ctrl+w*), stop well before then to hit the url bar (or f6*), which is huge for no reason, and the most promising thing I saw so far was an option to "inject a toolbar into a webpage" which didn't actually sound so bad if there were enough options, like if I could hide the tab bar and replace it on one of these or some shit... but no, it's as lame as I hoped it wouldn't be:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Bleh, but hey, at least now everyone can use chrome, even when they aren't using chrome, hurray! Who needs ui control? Certainly not users, they're dumb, having to use their eyes to see where they moved something is too much to ask, let's tell them it's a security risk letting them rearrange the ui and call it a day!

My favorite part though, was how the firefox mission statement shit which is supposed to justify webextensions+xul deprecation says "a browser should get you where you're going and get out of the way" which apparently means "force it to be more in your way than it was before because fuck you" I guess?

*Yeah, using keyboard commands is handy, but if I wanted to go that route exclusively I'd try to set up a terminal based browser and forego the gui portion entirely. I mean, it is all super fucking 1st world problems, but damn it to hell, I liked my comfy browser setup!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 24, 2017, 08:13:22 pm
I've got it installed, but there's still a lot missing to make it worth the full migration. Can't figure out why it spams new bin processes endlessly either, I know it's multiprocess and all, but so is firefox now (got the main window and two tab processes atm) and despite all the crap I've got on here it's still snappier than vivaldi was just starting fresh.

Was looking into the ungoogled chromium versions, inox looked good on arch but the compile keeps cutting out. A tip for anyone else trying one of the ungoogled compiles: switch your makepkg.conf to use a different path, the normal linux route of putting it in /tmp or whatever and allocating 2 GB won't work with chromium's fat ass wanting 3 GB or more sometimes for compiling.

Now, I can understand mozilla wanting to move away from slapping more layers of spaghetti to keep the old ass add-ons working, but for the life of me I can not understand why arbitrarily limiting ui manipulation is something firefox can justify.

Chrome doesn't give a fuck about what you want, it just relies on always being there like that reliable old ex-turned-fuckbuddy that never seems to ask for much up front, but then you discover they're stalking you again and one morning you wake up to find them hiding in the cabinet reading your emails in the nude...

Opera was hip and cool and into freedom and changing itself, helped firefox with a lot of ideas back in the day, but it started getting old, started trying to dress younger, change their hair color, and even imitating chrome now.

Safari is uh... well, you remember that one date you had where they were really cute and all, but you found out later they were basically just bait to bring new members into a cult? Yeah...

Vivaldi is cute and edgy, kinda reminds you of an old crush, but it could lose some weight, and it's got to work out some stability issues, but hey, it might work out later, right?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 25, 2017, 11:44:42 pm
Not sure if this belongs here, or in science--

Scientists succeed in reaching milestone in artificial womb tech. Keep lambs alive for over a month in artificial amnionic sac.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/25/525044286/scientists-create-artificial-womb-that-could-help-prematurely-born-babies
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 26, 2017, 04:36:42 am
Vat grown soldiers sheeple, ahoy!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 26, 2017, 04:48:43 am
Not sure if this belongs here, or in science--

Scientists succeed in reaching milestone in artificial womb tech. Keep lambs alive for over a month in artificial amnionic sac.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/25/525044286/scientists-create-artificial-womb-that-could-help-prematurely-born-babies
Cool shit.

In a *smack your forehead so hard a painting fell off the wall next door* type of moment I may have found a ray of hope for the new firefox setup. I can't find any signs that they're deprecating userChrome.css completely, just removing the addons that go through the XUL/XPCom system.

Code: (userChrome.css) [Select]
@namespace url("http://www.mozilla.org/keymaster/gatekeeper/there.is.only.xul"); /* only needed once */
 
#reader-mode-button,
#readinglist-addremove-button {
 display:none !important;
}
   
#TabsToolbar {   
    font-size:     16px !important;
    height:        22px !important;
    max-width:     1040px !important
-moz-box-ordinal-group: 21 !important;       
    margin-top: -4px !important;
    margin-right: 800px !important;
}

#nav-bar {
    font-size:     16px !important;
    height:        22px !important;
    min-height:    1px !important;
    max-width: 800px !important;
    margin-top: -22px !important;
margin-left: 1040px !important;
}

#urlbar .urlbar-textbox-container {
    height: 20px !important;
    margin-top: -8px !important;
}
Naturally someone who has different screen sizes/browser width/desired tab-to-urlbar-ratio would want to change the margin values there, but really I can't figure out at this point why I went through the process of using two different addons for a while (hide caption titlebar plus and classic theme restorer) and later just the CTR add-on for something I could accomplish with 30 lines in a .css file.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/comment-page-1/#comment-223635

'Will userChrome.css and userContent.css still be working in Firefox 57 and up?'
"I don’t know of any plans to remove support for them."
'It is my understanding that using css code to modify the UI won’t be allowed. If true what can a person place in userChrome.css that would be allowed?'
"As long as it is supported, you can add any CSS like before. You just won’t be able to do it from an add-on."

So I guess the lesson is: if you can manage to slap some rules in a text file, don't panic?

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 28, 2017, 12:57:53 am
Stark Industries (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39441825)...
Unfortunate phrasing, though:
Quote
He was inspired by his father, an aeronautical engineer and inventor, who killed himself when Mr Browning was a teenager.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on May 06, 2017, 03:15:12 pm
I mean, I think the good news is that anyone dogmatic enough to be ok with growing vat soldiers would also feel that the vat soldiers are subhuman, and so would probably be quickly deposed? Maybe?

What happened to all those superconductor breakthroughs last year? We were so close to a unified theory of superconductors that would let us design them from scratch, and then no new updates for a year.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on May 06, 2017, 04:49:03 pm
Since the other thread is locked, I'll leave this here:
These critters filter seawater faster than any other creature, and in the process contribute greatly to sinking carbon to the ocean's bottom. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/03/science/giant-larvaceans-filter-oceans-carbon.html)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on May 06, 2017, 06:11:49 pm
SIGGRAPH 2017 technical papers preview video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YvIHREdVX4
Papers and videos for them can likely be found online if anything looks interesting to you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on May 07, 2017, 06:51:46 am
Looks impressive. The part with the Obama speech is slightly worrisome though. I guess it's time to deny video evidence from all court cases. Computer modelling is becoming too indistinguishable from real video, especially with the added ability to make people in videos say anything you want.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on May 07, 2017, 08:25:13 am
How do you rely on your thoughts about the case when thoughts can be magnetically implanted?

EDIT: Yes the aluminium in the tinfoil hat makes implantation easier.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on May 07, 2017, 10:42:32 am
Looks impressive. The part with the Obama speech is slightly worrisome though. I guess it's time to deny video evidence from all court cases. Computer modelling is becoming too indistinguishable from real video, especially with the added ability to make people in videos say anything you want.
This was one of the talks last year, which was even more along those lines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohmajJTcpNk
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 07, 2017, 01:57:19 pm
Looks impressive. The part with the Obama speech is slightly worrisome though. I guess it's time to deny video evidence from all court cases. Computer modelling is becoming too indistinguishable from real video, especially with the added ability to make people in videos say anything you want.

We'll develop deep neural networks to discern real videos from ones made by the other deep neural networks.

It might be the case that using that fake voice editor leaves some fingerprints, e.g. the bit you edited would be mathematically linked to the unedited sample in a way that can be detected.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 07, 2017, 02:00:21 pm
SIGGRAPH 2017 technical papers preview video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YvIHREdVX4
Papers and videos for them can likely be found online if anything looks interesting to you.
Detail Preservation In Piling Armadillos. (https://youtu.be/sy5dDJ4zRWg?t=64)

All of my wats.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: hops on May 07, 2017, 02:02:23 pm
I'm just weirded iut by the fact that they don't actually look like armadillos.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 07, 2017, 02:02:59 pm
I briefly thought it was a reference to the Marvel one but it isn't him either.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 07, 2017, 02:09:25 pm
It might be the case that using that fake voice editor leaves some fingerprints, e.g. the bit you edited would be mathematically linked to the unedited sample in a way that can be detected.
Something like what can be done for images (http://resources.infosecinstitute.com/error-level-analysis-detect-image-manipulation/#gref), though with different criteria, obviously, and possibly in an arms-race as fake-it-apps perform their own pre-passing analysis and jiggling to normalise all the clues back to an indicative value no more than a background amount.  (Like checking that your loose steganography also obeys Benford's law, to foil trivial detection of patterns.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on May 07, 2017, 02:48:23 pm
It's a scan of an armadillo toy model thing, from the Stanford datasets https://graphics.stanford.edu/data/3Dscanrep/
And as noted on that page, along with the bunny, one of the few canonical models where distortion isn't generally frowned upon.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 07, 2017, 02:58:04 pm
Give him some nunchaku and 80's-looking gear and he could be a villain in TMNT.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on May 07, 2017, 03:55:34 pm
It's a scan of an armadillo toy model thing, from the Stanford datasets https://graphics.stanford.edu/data/3Dscanrep/
And as noted on that page, along with the bunny, one of the few canonical models where distortion isn't generally frowned upon.
BRB, creating new religion to worship that bunny and that armadillo.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 08, 2017, 05:28:50 am
Reading news stories here and there about customs giving people a shitty choice (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/05/man-border-agents-threatened-to-be-dicks-take-my-phone-if-i-didnt-unlock-it/)--let them check your phone or be detained arbitrarily--makes me wonder how difficult it would be to whip up a faked-command-line-gui-lockscreen to gate access to the rest of the phone, and fuck with the typical commands someone used to CLI conventions would try.

>_
>help
Would you like to play a game?
[Yes/No] n
Are you sure?
[Yes/No] y
So you do want to play a game, or you are sure you don't want to play a game?
[Yes/No] n
Ah, so we're playing a game then, wonderful.
[Player 1 Name] exit
Hello exit, would you like to go left or right?
[Left/Right] l
You have been eaten by a grue.
[Continue?] n
Shutting down now.
*phone shuts off, similar dialog trees repeat when it is turned back on, entering the text of the 4th amendment gives a functional CLI which can be used to boot up the rest of the phone*

Bonus would be using a cheap backup phone you can let go of if they decide to try and be extra dickish about it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 10, 2017, 06:49:33 pm
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/17/05/10/1441225/police-to-test-app-that-assesses-suspects

Quote
Police in Durham are preparing to go live with an artificial intelligence (AI) system designed to help officers decide whether or not a suspect should be kept in custody, BBC is reporting. The system classifies suspects at a low, medium or high risk of offending and has been tested by the force. It has been trained on five years' of offending histories data. One expert said the tool could be useful, but the risk that it could skew decisions should be carefully assessed. Data for the Harm Assessment Risk Tool (Hart) was taken from Durham police records between 2008 and 2012. The system was then tested during 2013, and the results -- showing whether suspects did in fact offend or not -- were monitored over the following two years. Forecasts that a suspect was low risk turned out to be accurate 98% of the time, while forecasts that they were high risk were accurate 88% of the time.

I think the advantages of relying on such an app far outweigh the risks. Decisions are already heavily skewed by personal biases/feelings/malintent of individual police officers, and officers are daily being asked to make complex decisions about stuff they can't possible know the ramifications for. Not every beat policeman can be expected to be an expert in domestic violence, crime/race relations and all of the rest, to make completely objective decisions which minimize harm to society as a whole. It's basically not a do-able task, and thus AI for police decisions is going to become a huge thing.

Having an app like this that gives it's own 2 cents is also one less excuse for crooked cops to screw with people because of stuff that's unrelated to the crime.

This app will give a risk assessment that's independent of any personal biases, and will see police resources better targeted to high-risk individuals, so you'd see less young people being locked up, but more of those they do lock up being ones who were the likely offenders.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 10, 2017, 08:37:37 pm
If I'm reading this right, the measure of risk that they used is whether a suspect would then later be arrested for a different or perhaps the same crime?


If so, I am immediately terrified of its use in the US. Think about how many minor drug arrests there are. As far as I can tell, the only "risk" it assesses is the risk of the suspect, after being released, committing a crime. Considering how many people in the US are arrested for minor drug offenses, you can imagine how this might skew the thing into saying that every 20-something male in the US is a "high risk" individual.

That's really not going to happen. Only a very smaller percentage of people, even 20-something males, will be arrested in a specific year. if an AI was rating your likelihood of arrest based purely on age and gender, then it's only going to give perhaps a 1% likelihood of you being arrested purely on that.

And if other factors are accounted for, that actually reduces any assessed likelihood that arises from broad characteristics such as race, age, gender. Because you've factored those things out from the background noise, and that will in fact reduce the importance of e.g. gender on the data analysis.

e.g. males might be more likely to be carrying a handgun, and the AI might determine that people who are caught carrying a handgun have higher likelihood of committing later offences. But because that factor has now been accounted for, the "base" factor related to just being male is reduced: males who didn't have handguns are less likely to commit offenses than an "average male", and the new base-level assessment of risk by just "being male" is reduced to that new baseline of "males without handguns".

By a process of trying out different data to see which is the better predictor, you reduce the reliance on correlations with broad-brush predictors (since those correlate with the other predictors in a non-random fashion, their impact on the final assessment is reduced).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 10, 2017, 08:51:31 pm
There's an anime about that somewhere
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 10, 2017, 08:55:08 pm
Since explicit data would need to be entered into the system it would be fairly easy to prevent racial profiling being part of the system, just don't allow the system access to race data.

The AI would then need to find proxy measures that correlate with future arrests. But those proxy measures are in fact going to reduce the amount that can be purely associated with race. e.g. a black college student is less likely to be arrested in a single year than a black gang member. By factoring in educational level you are in fact reducing the amount that can be associated with race, even if the cops have been racially profiling people based on race. That's because racial profiling isn't an independent variable, you're much more likely to be picked up if your circumstances are in fact different. And when those arrests are accounted for based on other variables, they reduce the amount than can be directly associated with race, even if you allow race to be entered as a variable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 10, 2017, 09:24:23 pm
Well, if you take the current data, including racial profiling biases then there would be some component purely correlated with race, and other components correlated with secondary characteristics that are themselves correlated with race.

If you then eliminate race from your decision process, but allow the secondary characteristics, that's going to change your future data set such that the amount purely associated with race is going to tend towards zero. So yes even with a biased sample base, the process will reduce the amount of racial profiling. There will still be biases in there, but they're not going to be very strong when you eliminate the main one that caused the initial bias. e.g. hypothetically "has dreadlocks" could be a good predictor of being arrested, and that might remain as a correlation if you disallow race data from being entered, but other concrete factors are going to in fact chip away at how well "has dreadlocks" explains variable arrest rates.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on May 11, 2017, 02:37:43 am
Such systems have already been used and are already resulting in perpetuation of racism in an automated manner. Moreover, these systems:
1. Are Proprietary; defendants don't get to question how it comes to its conclusion, as the inner workings are trade secrets.
2. Are Opaque; see prior. Without extensive access to the tools and a degree in statistics, no one will ever find out about its biases except through years of abuse after the fact.
3. These systems only give back results similar to what you were getting before *at best.* Some minorities are heavily over-represented in prisons in the US, and the trained goal, if everything works exactly as planned, is to match those results. Even assuming the company making it does its absolute best at this and trains the system perfectly, the best you can expect from automating a biased policing system is an automated biased policing system.

This all assumes a system that works as designed and *merely recreates the existing systemic biases*. But with the secrecy from 1 and 2, a third party can't even determine if the system is just as biased as the old way of doing things, let alone worse.
Well, if you take the current data, including racial profiling biases then there would be some component purely correlated with race, and other components correlated with secondary characteristics that are themselves correlated with race.

If you then eliminate race from your decision process, but allow the secondary characteristics, that's going to change your future data set such that the amount purely associated with race is going to tend towards zero. So yes even with a biased sample base, the process will reduce the amount of racial profiling. There will still be biases in there, but they're not going to be very strong when you eliminate the main one that caused the initial bias. e.g. hypothetically "has dreadlocks" could be a good predictor of being arrested, and that might remain as a correlation if you disallow race data from being entered, but other concrete factors are going to in fact chip away at how well "has dreadlocks" explains variable arrest rates.
As for this bit, it's just not true. The patterns you're training on have bias baked into them -- any well trained system will pick up on them, and represent that in whatever way it most effectively can so long as it can find any proxy for that information. If there is literally any way to represent a factor that results in a 10x likelihood of arrest (as being black in the US does https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/18/ferguson-black-arrest-rates/19043207/ ), it will find those links and represent them through any means necessary. And herein lies the problem -- there are tons of very subtle and interrelated systems at work that determine whether a person released from prison will be re-arrested; most of which are outside the realm of anything being captured by the system. Reduce this to a tractable statistical problem, and the end result will be a load of uninterpreted noise plus a strong signal of easily captured bias. It won't be a recidivism predictor, it will be a black male predictor, used to lock people up with no more explanation than "the computer said so, and computers can't be biased." Or as some machine learning folks on twitter put it: "Bias laundering"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on May 12, 2017, 04:28:02 pm
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/12/528119808/large-cyber-attack-hits-englands-nhs-hospital-system-ransoms-demanded
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/12/world/europe/uk-national-health-service-cyberattack.html?_r=0

Update your computers. Do it now. Especially if your a business.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 12, 2017, 05:48:35 pm
Cue "Update your computer now! Microsoft has detected that you need to apply this patch! Click here <points to mircosoft.co domain> now and follow all the installation instructions!" emails.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: misko27 on May 12, 2017, 07:49:08 pm
Odds that this is just a really elaborte set up by Microsoft to make people update.

Jokes aside, this looks pretty devestating. The damage I'm hearing about in Britian sounds pretty horrible, but apparently it's everywhere.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on May 12, 2017, 08:02:20 pm
Welp, hopefully disabling SMBv1 will be enough to avoid getting fucked.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on May 12, 2017, 08:24:37 pm
According to my newspaper, it's not just hospitals that are hit. A lot of banks in Spain are locked out of accessing their funds and transfer system.
This attack is no joke.

Inb4 billion trillion dolllar lawsuits hit NSA for letting this get out in the open.

EDIT: still, them hitting hospital systems is a million times worse than them disabling banks, even though the economic damage from the latter could well be several factors higher. Disabling hospitals is just a plain crime against humanity. I hope they catch who did that and put them in jail for life.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 12, 2017, 08:24:47 pm
It won't be a recidivism predictor, it will be a black male predictor, used to lock people up with no more explanation than "the computer said so, and computers can't be biased." Or as some machine learning folks on twitter put it: "Bias laundering"

I was actually hoping that it would be trained on data from other nations. if you train on data from many nations then your specific biases are going to be evened out.

However, even given proxy biases, one AI trained on US data was twice as likely to flag black vs white criminals (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/durham-police-ai-predict-crimes-artificial-intelligence-future-suspects-racial-bias-minority-report-a7732641.html), but the difference in arrests rates when human officers make the assessment is 3.6 black to 1 white. (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/feb/26/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-blacks-more-likely-be-arreste/) So I do stand by what I said before, that the AI being given proxy information is going to damp down on the human bias quite a bit, and if you run the AI for a generation then it's going to have an error term based on it's own assessments vs reality, and that's going to damp down further on the error due to bias.

Like self driving cars it doesn't need to be perfect to be an improvement, just better than we are, and with error-correction headed in the right direction.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 12, 2017, 08:56:55 pm
Concerning the "Shadow Brokers" release of offensive state malware:

This (what is happening RIGHT NOW) is EXACTLY the reason why "Sitting" on exploits instead of properly, and discretely disclosing them to vendors, with the threat of a serious state beat-down if they dont fix it pronto, IS A FUCKING STUPID AS SHIT IDEA.

As proven by demonstration, the NSA and pals are *NOT* invulnerable to unsanctioned release or compromise of their archival systems. Hoarding this shit where people can get to it (like afore mentioned Shadow Brokers) instead of releasing it discretely to vendors and assuring proper public safety (LIKE THEIR MANDATE SAYS), is how you end up hurting millions of people, and causing billions to trillions of dollars in damages.

But no-- Cue the people who will clamor all over how "essential" and "necessary" it is to hoard dangerous exploits like this for purposes of cloak and dagger statecraft bullshit. 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on May 13, 2017, 05:19:41 am
Well yea, this could be the end of NSA, once the lawsuits for more money than the entire US national budget start hitting them.

Evenmoreso, since they managed to disable the attack when they discovered that the malware had a built in kill switch.

Raises the question, why did the NSA not come forward with killswitch info the minute hospitals started getting hit? That's technically not even negligence, but makes it seem they're accomplice to the crime.

Which is quite possible tbh. Good chances this was no ransomware attack, but just the NSA testing how well their virus works.

I mean, I can see it easily.
"hey boss we made this awesome virus that can do major infrastructural damage to whomever we want, we think. We just need to test it, but, constitutional rights, international treaties yadda yadda"

"Oh hey, why don't we pretend it was stolen from us and then test it after a while pretending we're ransomware hackers? No one will ever know!"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 13, 2017, 05:30:21 am
THe killswitch was put in by the attacker.

The leaked code was dumped online last year, so security experts already knew what was in that, i.e. no convenient killswitch known.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 13, 2017, 06:23:55 am
The real point, is that a huge collection of military grade exploits leaked all at once--- because a certain 3 letter agency decided that the best way to fullfill its mandate to the american people, was to sit on them, hoard them, and try to use them to screw with other countries, instead of developing effective and reliable countermeasures, and applying government pressure to assure that those protections were implemented expediently.

As a consequence, a huge number of attack vectors leaked all at once, and the people who's job it is to plug those holes were overworked trying to do so, resulting in less than stellar proliferation of the fixes before the storm hit.

It is NOT a good idea to hoard dangerous exploits in a centralized location. It is NOT a good idea to think, just because you are a 3 letter agency that you wont be hacked.

If you have all the nice tasty goodies, the attackers will be beating on your door to get them.  It's about time they figured that out, and stopped hoarding shit like that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 14, 2017, 06:56:35 pm
Which is why the pwn2own contests aren't just useful as bragging rights for given vendors/hackers.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on May 15, 2017, 04:18:16 pm
After winning Elon Musk's hyperloop contest this january, a joint venture of construction company BAM and a startup by the winning team of TU Delft students are going to build the first hyperloop in the world in Delft.
It will only be 3m in diameter and 30 meters long, yet it can be used to test all critical systems in a near vacuum.
They're not wasting any time either, it's scheduled to be finished and ready for use the 1st of june.

The student's startup company, Hardt, hopes to have a test traject of several kilometers ready within 4 years.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on May 16, 2017, 01:45:07 am
If you have all the nice tasty goodies, the attackers will be beating on your door to get them.  It's about time they figured that out, and stopped hoarding shit like that.
There's three things I always point out to people that say "But they won't abuse it!"
1) Are you sure?
2) Even if they don't, it's a massive target
3) You cannot stop an attack, you can only make it take so much time and effort that people give up on it.
Addendums:
4. They will never actually give up on it.
5. humint is ez-mode.

Consider: A while back, they caught a guy who apparently had vast quantities of NSA material. Explanation last I heard:
 Dude just liked hoarding classified material

Snowden: acquired vast amounts of material and leaked it to the press. Generally agreed not a spy; just a random person.

Neither of them even worked directly for the government; they were military industrial complex contractors. The NSA in particular doesn't traffic in material goods like the military generally does, nor does it traffic in intelligence and analysis like the CIA does. It traffics in weaponized data; the simplest thing out there to steal by the very nature of what technology is. Unlike elsewhere, an individual can't be constrained easily by task. Compromise or plant a nuclear weapons scientist, at best you'll get the component they worked on and the basics of the things it's plugged into. They don't need to know the rest, nor do they need to know the schematics of the submarines or aircraft carriers on which they might be placed; things can be compartmentalized easily there. But because of what the NSA does, every operator needs access to both specifications for essentially every tool in the arsenal, and also the executable file, which is all the blueprint necessary for an exploit. This is what makes the NSA inherently more dangerous than the others; any breach at all is less "a missing tomahawk missile" and more "half of all the US military was stolen, leaving both sides on an equal playing field if the other side started with absolutely nothing, and due to their existing military makes them more powerful."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 16, 2017, 02:34:37 am
I disagree that it cannot be compartmentalized.

Here's a basic flow outline.

SigINT operative needs access to a toolset, to monitor SuperSuspiciousPerson's network. Through some basic sniffing with common tools, they have determined that SuperSuspiciousPerson has some open ports commonly used by say-- SMB protocol.

They send a requisition to the digital munitions group, for access to an SMB exploit toolkit.

Digital munitions group requests more information about the target to better supply a good exploit. The sniffing logs collected in phase 1 (SigInt operative already collected, when they determined that SMB is a good attack vector, after all) will probably suffice, as headers and other identifying digital features of the SMB traffic collected would identify the patch level and protocol version used. Digital munitions accepts the sniff logs, grants access to a single toolkit, based on best use criteria.

SigInt operative then proceeds to set up the necessary phishing and or social engineering (or even technical delivery) vector to deliver the payload, then begins SigInt monitoring of SuperSuspiciousPerson.

At no time does SigInt operative have unrestricted access. Only as-needed, and on case-by-case basis.  This greatly reduces the risk of improper use of the toolkit, reduces attack surface of the toolchest, and adds paper trail accountability for use.

Of course, NONE OF THOSE THINGS are at all desirable to the NSA.

Why?



Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 29, 2017, 08:26:30 pm
https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/05/29/169233/startup-uses-ai-to-create-programs-from-simple-screenshots

Quote
A new neural network being built by a Danish startup called UIzard Technologies IVS has created an application that can transform raw designs of graphical user interfaces into actual source code that can be used to build them. Company founder Tony Beltramelli has just published a research paper that reveals how it has achieved that. It uses cutting-edge machine learning technologies to create a neural network that can generate code automatically when it's fed with screenshots of a GUI. The Pix2Code model actually outperforms many human coders because it can create code for three separate platforms, including Android, iOS and "web-based technologies," whereas many programmers are only able to do so for one platform. Pix2Code can create GUIs from screenshots with an accuracy of 77 percent, but that will improve as the algorithm learns more, the founder said.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 29, 2017, 09:58:00 pm
Hey man, first time i decided to post in months since that shitstorm, now you're being argumentative again, like instantly?

if you think there's a better link, post it yourself rather than criticize other people for posting links.

I made this thread as a place to drop interesting articles that I get in my feeds, because other people might be interested to discuss them, having some angry person instally jump to attack the links doesn't foster any sort of discussion.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 30, 2017, 08:27:03 am
Apparently commenting on the thing is being argumentative. Didn't know that I can't even post my thoughts on a thing. I'll keep that in mind. You say "discuss" but apparently the moment I try to discuss things it's being argumentative.

As for the link, it'd be this (https://siliconangle.com/blog/2017/05/28/startup-uses-ai-create-gui-source-code-simple-screenshots/).

You didn't comment on the thing you started with :

Quote
I don't see why you don't ... XYZ

Which is attacking the messenger not the message. Ad hominen plus in passive tone (passive aggressive). I linked a site you don't like, you made the main point of your post about admonishing me for not linking a source to your liking, not about the actual technology. I responded harshly because you made it a personal directed thing.

Then
Quote
"that headline is dubious - it it recreates GUIs, not entire programs"

If you're being pedantic, no-one said "entire programs" and we'd have to determine exactly what the specific meaning of computer program even is.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/computer-program.html
"instructions to a computer telling it to do a particular piece of work"

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/computer-program
a set of instructions that makes a computer do a particular thing"

Which is exactly what the code for a GUI is doing. If you make a GUI that's functional but has no purpose, it's still a program. Just because you can add more to it to make it more "complete" for some specific purpose, that doesn't make the plain GUI any less of a complete program at doing it's purpose - even if that purpose is just to have buttons clicked on and respond visually. That's just as much a complete program as Hello World. The fact that the GUI can't exist outside of it's OS / graphics framework doesn't make it any less of a real program. All programs rely heavily on the existence of frameworks for their operation.

Quote
"Looks rather nifty, but I'm not exactly sure of its use Given that with modern IDEs, developing GUIs is as simple as a drag-and-drop procedure,"

Also completely irrelevant. It's an advance in technique, which could be applied to multiple tasks. The fact that a human can already do that task using a manual process isn't a relevant criticism of an AI advance. Humans could already play chess, or any of many other things AIs can now do, that doesn't invalidate the advances.

Quote
Still, I'm not exactly sure what problem this tool is trying to solve. Neat demonstration, though.

Any time you might want to automatically generate code from messy data perhaps, which is what NNs are good at filtering out. Hand-coded solutions to deal with complex data which might have noise in the signal isn't very good. Which is why NNs are a thing.

Anyway the argument that you can already get this sort of result from a manual human-operated process is a weak argument to dismiss the potential of any AI advance. How long does manual click and drag take, are there known errors that can crop up when doing that? etc etc? Automatable. I'm pretty certain they can get to the point at which you just give a written description of what a program is meant to do then AI can in fact create that program for you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on May 30, 2017, 11:16:35 am
Neural networks are certainly interesting... We have categorizing networks, but I'd like to make one that works backwards, where you give it a category and it makes an example of it. Throw in the ability to mix categories and see what the AI thinks a half-car, half-tree looks like.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on May 30, 2017, 01:43:48 pm
That's the image synthesis problem, which is related. Here's some:
https://twitter.com/quasimondo (most recently, they've been messing with creepy portrait-to-doll face conversion) The style transfer problem is sorta like doing both at once; deconstructing an image into features, then re-mapping the features as a different type of thing.
Photorealistic text-to-image synthesis of several types of objects: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.03242.pdf
Though most of the latter generate very small images, for memory and time constraint reasons


And in entirely unrelated news: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/05/renewable-energy-generation-in-the-us-dramatically-exceeds-2012-predictions/
Quote
According to the EIA, renewable energy sources like wind, solar, and geothermal power accounted for 10.68 percent of total electricity generation in the first quarter of 2017. If you include electricity from conventional hydroelectric plants, renewables made up nearly a fifth of total electricity generation—as much as 19.35 percent.
So the US grid is apparently now at nearly 20% renewable generation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on June 06, 2017, 09:27:06 pm
More really cool SIGGRAPH stuff going up on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_qsGIAxmRQEWUVwymzLecOZVsMYatx2Y
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHFiqDkNCp1gaKu4HQwL9-S3eIDmAHIUw
Favorite thus far, wet hair simulation with really neat results video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Oo0TlprwAQ
Though sadly the lack of runtime information suggests it's far too expensive for us poor game developers who can't afford the extravagance of several minutes/hours of computing on a renderfarm per frame.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on June 12, 2017, 02:30:06 pm
The Uber top is decimated, after an investigation by former minister of Justice Eric Holder into sexism and machist culture at Uber.
Fellow founder, and CEO Travis Kalanic is put on non-active for at least 3 months, and will get 'another role' upon his return. His right hand Emil Michael is forced to resign completely. Fellow founder Ryan Graves, and technical director Thuan Pam will likely also be forced to resign.

The investigation was opened on request of Uber itself, after former employees spoke up against the company's sexist culture. After recieving the investigation's result, the company's top management has announced it will follow every recommendation in it.

Uber will inform it's employees today / tomorrow about the findings of the investigation, and Holder's recommendations.

In the past few months, Uber has already fired about 20 employees, amongst whom managers and staff members.
With the loss of Kalanic, Michael, Graves and Pam, Uber will be left without COO, CFO, CEO, CBO and CTO, rendering the company all but headless.

There is a fear that it will be left with too little top managers to be able to cope with the various large lawsuits the company is involved in. Amongst others, Uber is being accused of stealing technology for self-driving cars, and for developing it's Greyball App, which misleads authorities in places where Uber is not allowed to operate.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/uber-stuurloos-uber-top-moet-veld-ruimen-na-vernietigend-seksismerapport~a4500360/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/11/technology/uber-holder-report.html
https://www.ft.com/content/a2713dd0-4ebf-11e7-bfb8-997009366969


tl;dr R.I.P. Uber?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: hops on June 12, 2017, 04:23:21 pm
This smells like a power grab by the remaining managers...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on June 12, 2017, 06:05:41 pm
Google’s New AI Is Better at Creating AI Than the Company’s Engineers (https://futurism.com/googles-new-ai-is-better-at-creating-ai-than-the-companys-engineers/)

Quote
GOOGLE’S AUTOML
One of the more noteworthy remarks to come out of Google I/O ’17 conference this week was CEO Sundar Pichai recalling how his team had joked that they have achieved “AI inception” with AutoML. Instead of crafting layers of dreams like in the Christopher Nolan flick, however, the AutoML system layers artificial intelligence (AI), with AI systems creating better AI systems.

The AutoML project focuses on deep learning, a technique that involves passing data through layers of neural networks. Creating these layers is complicated, so Google’s idea was to create AI that could do it for them.

“In our approach (which we call ‘AutoML’), a controller neural net can propose a ‘child’ model architecture, which can then be trained and evaluated for quality on a particular task,” the company explains on the Google Research Blog. “That feedback is then used to inform the controller how to improve its proposals for the next round. We repeat this process thousands of times — generating new architectures, testing them, and giving that feedback to the controller to learn from.”


So far, they have used the AutoML tech to design networks for image and speech recognition tasks. In the former, the system matched Google’s experts. In the latter, it exceeded them, designing better architectures than the humans were able to create.
Stupid neural networks, stop being so damn effective!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 12, 2017, 06:20:25 pm
Actually that's a genetic algorithm arrangement, on top of the neural networks. It's a good example of how hybrid structures can achieve much more than trying to come up with one "magic" homogenous structure.

the giveaway is when it says it has thousands of rounds of training, i.e. iterations. The GA is altering the network topology, each topology is then trained, and meta-data is extracted (how well and how fast the topology learned the desired behaviour). Then, the tweaks can either be random, or you could apply gradient descent learning on the network topology itself (e.g. treat the possible topologies as a search space and estimate gradients for your changes in topology).

It's a nice approach but i don't think it's overly novel, because an amateur like me can think it up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on June 12, 2017, 06:25:22 pm
Actually that's a genetic algorithm arrangement, on top of the neural networks.
Quote from: https://research.googleblog.com/2017/05/using-machine-learning-to-explore.html
In our approach (which we call "AutoML"), a controller neural net can propose a “child” model architecture, which can then be trained and evaluated for quality on a particular task. That feedback is then used to inform the controller how to improve its proposals for the next round. We repeat this process thousands of times — generating new architectures, testing them, and giving that feedback to the controller to learn from. Eventually the controller learns to assign high probability to areas of architecture space that achieve better accuracy on a held-out validation dataset, and low probability to areas of architecture space that score poorly. Here’s what the process looks like:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0nzARW3QtkA/WRtuVsUJ02I/AAAAAAAAB0s/t6ncpAH6VfIzkr2tWW8CnE6U2Es2Bs1BgCLcB/s1600/image3.png)

Sure looks like a neural network to me. Where did you get the "genetic algorithms"?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 12, 2017, 06:36:10 pm
It's an genetic programming structure, it doesn't really matter if the evaluation function is a neural network or not.

There are some criteria, different examples are created, then they are evaluated against the criteria, and new models are proposed. The only thing novel is that they're using an NN as the selection basis, but that in itself is just an example of generalization, since an NN can mimic many functions.

The giveaway in that diagram is where it says "Sample architecture with probability p". That part of the process is rolling dice, which is what you do with genetic algorithms, and is external to the neural network.

What I'm guessing is that they trained a separate "training NN" to guesstimate how effective each of the "target" NNs would be at learning the task based on real performance data of random networks. You can then rinse and repeat, but you use the "training NNs" predictions to guide you on which randomly-modified networks are the more promising ones.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 12, 2017, 06:49:07 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on June 12, 2017, 07:13:34 pm
It's an genetic programming structure, it doesn't really matter if the evaluation function is a neural network or not.

There are some criteria, different examples are created, then they are evaluated against the criteria, and new models are proposed. The only thing novel is that they're using an NN as the selection basis, but that in itself is just an example of generalization, since an NN can mimic many functions.

The giveaway in that diagram is where it says "Sample architecture with probability p". That part of the process is rolling dice, which is what you do with genetic algorithms, and is external to the neural network.

What I'm guessing is that they trained a separate "training NN" to guesstimate how effective each of the "target" NNs would be at learning the task based on real performance data of random networks. You can then rinse and repeat, but you use the "training NNs" predictions to guide you on which randomly-modified networks are the more promising ones.
The genetic programming structure, as far as I understand, is this:
Quote from: Evolutionary Computation for Modelling and Optimization, 2005, p.1
Generate a population of structures
Repeat
Test the structures for quality
Select structures to reproduce
Produce new variations of selected structures
Replace old structures with new ones
Until Satisfied
Similarity between this and the method Google has used for AutoML is very vague. It's not much of a genetic algorithm, when its "generated population of structures" is one, singular, structure.

It's a nice approach but i don't think it's overly novel, because an amateur like me can think it up.
It's annoying, right? Even an amateur like you could think of a method that's capable of beating highly qualified professionals from Google at doing something as difficult as configuring neural networks for maximizing accuracy, and its all because neural networks are made of pure hax and I don't even know why I'm wasting time trying to learn other methods when the cheating, winning approach, is right there, kicking asses and taking names.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on June 12, 2017, 07:31:50 pm
(with what mechanism?)
Well, if we take the picture at the face value, it somehow computes a "gradient of probability" (whatever that means) and then scales it by accuracy to obtain a datapoint, with which it then updates the neural network in charge. It would be good if they had a paper up there to explain how do they compute said "gradient of probability".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 12, 2017, 07:33:19 pm
Not according to this quote:

Quote
Eventually the controller learns to assign high probability to areas of architecture space that achieve better accuracy on a held-out validation dataset, and low probability to areas of architecture space that score poorly.

What is says here is that the controller is outputing a fitness function for any architecture proposed to it. But you still need to push possible architectures through that network to get a score, and pick one with a high score for the next round of training. The choice of what architectures to try next then does depend on some external heuristics to avoid brute force searching against the controller NN.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 12, 2017, 07:50:40 pm
I think it probably is, from the wording. They talk about identifying regions of the search space with a high score vs ones with a low score. To know that, you need to sample points in those regions and record the information. You then pick a point in the high-probability set, then do a more refined search in that region, to identify promising looking points, which then get fed into the main NN, and evaluated again.

This does in fact qualify as a genetic algorithm. It has selection rules which are the most important part of a GA, it has rounds. it has a population (it's keeping track of regions of the search space with high probability, i.e. it's keeping track of the best points to search around). it might lack crossover rules, but those are secondary to how a GA works. It does have mutation, in that given a good point, you have a mechanism for deriving other points to try that are close to that point.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on June 12, 2017, 08:04:54 pm
Regardless of whatever it is, it works, works better than things from before, and continues to make neural networks even more overpowered than they were before. Neural networks are bullshit, they just keep getting better and better, with no alternative approach being even close to competing with them. Whyyyyyyy?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on June 13, 2017, 02:40:21 am
Why do our brains think up pleasing drink & food combinations in order to relax from the stresses of everyday life?

Our brains are holographic networks that use liquids & organic chemicals to perform fuzzy logic operations that allow for decades-long experiential memory storage that can be recalled as easily as smelling something, as well as being able to calculate how glass operates in infinite dimensions using thirty pages of algebra.

Why wouldn't we want to use said neural network to create a better neural network that can augment existing capabilities?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 13, 2017, 10:26:44 am
So, my understanding is that it generates a neural network architecture and then proceeds to train a neural network on this architecture, then evaluates how to improve this model (with what mechanism?) and attempts the changes over the model, running it through the process over again.

Not a genetic algorithm per se, but it depends on the mechanism employed to evaluate and improve the child neural network.

What I think is happening is networks are generated, then they are trained by the normal means (standard backpropagation). The "controller" NN has nothing to do with this part.

Then some metrics/benchmarks are generated (how well the tested network performed in the training process. This is just standard data collection, e.g. looking at how quickly the network converged and how accurate it's results were).

The controller network then learns the mapping from network architecture to benchmarks (standard backpropagation again).

After this, the controller needs to generate new networks to try out. Two possible ways to do this: one would be to tweak "good" networks slightly, e.g. explore the search space in a guided way based on search space regions which look good. They hint at this in the article. The controller NN is basically a heuristic that can guesstimate how good novel topologies are going to be at the task.

But I have a hunch that what they might be doing is feeding the maximum possible score into the controller NN's output end, then backpropagate it all the way to the inputs. That way you would in fact get a single "ideal" network out of the controller, which you can test, and that would also challege the controller NN, since any error between the "ideal" network and the actual benchmark would be used to retrain the controller NN. I have a feeling this way of doing things might be prone to getting stuck in local maxima / ruts, however.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 13, 2017, 11:08:15 am
Not sure if I'm doing this thread right (It's been sitting on my "recents" for a very long time with no actual action from me)
But kursgesaght posted a video (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKi8HfcxEk) recently about the automation revolution- very much in a "humans need not apply" fashion.
Thought it could prompt a new discussion about the economic ramifications of automation even in the absence of AI.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on June 13, 2017, 12:18:04 pm
Yeah, there's two ways this ends:

1: FULLY AUTOMATED LUXURY COMMUNISM
2: The 0.1% exterminating the useless 99.9% of the population that are not already capitalists.

Since I am not in the top 0.1% of global wealth, I'm working on #1.

I may have missed something, but I'm pretty sure that anything besides these two is not a stable situation.

Oh, but the good news is that in either case the automation allows for virtualization and recycling at an extreme level, reducing humanities global footprint. So if the plankton survives the next 50 years, at least some of the biosphere will survive.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 13, 2017, 01:14:22 pm
I think capitalism can still live in this scenario... just that jobs will become very.. unimportant.
As long as we can assign value to Something, even the seconds left in our life, we will be able to spend those seconds sitting at a desk, staring at a wall, and earn money, and spend it.
Perhaps social media advertising will get to the point where people earn sustainable amounts of income simply by tagging or recommending a few products, periodically.

The laws of supply and demand are (imo) concrete, but the automation revolution will make them twist in some intriguing ways, methinks.
Possibly blood sport? Maybe utopian safe-space workplaces where all staff and customers operate on the same principles as you, and you get paid for doing what you love (even though all of your mistakes are fixed by a machine in transit).
Taxi drivers who are paid to be a friendly face, license not required.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on June 13, 2017, 02:29:54 pm
Actually, the product-monitoring feature might work pretty well. You pick products and use them, and by discussing them, suggesting improvements, and generally reviewing them, you earn credits to get other things.

It's basically a parody of consumerism, (as in Little Inferno had that idea as its main premise), but it is kind of a cycle that drives product development and allows people to thrive. It essentially removes the labor portion from capitalism and makes it purely about providing the service of crowdsourced value-calculating.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: hops on June 13, 2017, 03:06:03 pm
I mean, it need not be that immediately. I like the idea of automated farms providing the necessities for everyone so that nobody has to starve.

...But then I remember that shit can already be solved by having decent welfare.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on June 13, 2017, 03:26:10 pm
...But then I remember that shit can already be solved by having decent welfare.
(IRTA "warfare"...)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Criptfeind on June 13, 2017, 05:45:42 pm
I think the issue for that sorta bizarre consume based economy (where the product you sell is yourself to buy more products to sell yourself to) is you'd need a level of organization and agreement on how to run things that you might as well just make a utopia. It's not like Joe average consumer is going to have better insights into what he and his friends wants then super AI 5000. So even that job would be automated away if big companies let themselves.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 13, 2017, 09:37:57 pm
The only things which will have value will end up being handmade/customized/repaired x where you're getting something because you like it, and like that it was made by someone like you. It is unlikely that it will be more than an--at best--equivalent to something printed out by an automated design program, but the "human touch" will be a tricky problem to automate, for various reasons.

Look at the comb, this is an ancient bit of technology, I mean, we've got combs that evolved on various creatures for fuck's sake, being able to smooth and remove debris from a layer of fibers is a problem that comes up a lot.

I've been having fun customizing beard combs recently, just from taking things which annoy me about this comb or that comb, plus things which I like from them, and hacking away at one or both until the problems are gone. No more pointy bits that snag my cheekbone or nostril, no more teeth that extend juuuust far enough to catch a mole or scrape me. Then I like to tinker a bit more and clean up how it looks. So far I can't understand why combs default to something like:
____ (<- big stupid stiffer end teeth)
____ (pretend there are more same-length teeth in here)
____ (pretend there are more same-length teeth in here)
____ (all same height middle teeth as end teeth)
____ (pretend there are more same-length teeth in here)
____ (pretend there are more same-length teeth in here)
____ (<- big stupid stiffer end teeth)
...when it seems this:
__ (<- no stupid stiff end teeth)
___ (shorter to longer teeth in here)
____ (last few shortened teeth in here)
____ (flat belly of the curve from the ends up to the middle teeth)
____ (last few shortened teeth in here)
___ (shorter to longer teeth in here)
__ (<- no stupid stiff end teeth)
Is so much more suited for a chunk of hard material being dragged across your face.

The missus watched my insane tinkering and nipping and sanding and lining things up and repeating and suggested that I should get some tools and some wood and try with that.

I was like "well damn I are dumb" because that is a great idea, and I could probably find people that would be willing to buy some neat customized handmade wooden combs (she even suggested stuff like a head comb with argon oil infused in the wood for her hair) on etsy or whatever.

While that sort of stuff could have a program written which could have a machine built which could take "I want an object for this purpose or goal" as inputs and output the resulting object to given specifications, we aren't quite there yet.

We're still a hell of a lot closer to that than we are to something which can make it meet the desired goal with interesting tweaks or flaws that turn into a better outcome (I clipped one of the stiff end pieces on a comb off because they're so fucking stupid argh, and nipped one of the end teeth by accident so rather than leave it rough where it would snag I smoothed it down and lined up the one beside it, etc, until I hit on the rounded shape as the right one) than was initially expected, and that's still not quite the same sort of "I desire this object" effect as something which someone spent time working on.

Once you can solve that problem, I'm pretty sure you'll be looking at a fully self-aware android whittling a piece of wood for you because it enjoys doing it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 14, 2017, 12:27:39 am
I do sometimes wonder why people make things in such inefficient ways. Maybe beard combs are designed to be as hipster and look as oldschool as possible, at the expense of actually doing the job.
Or it could just be a breakage prevention thing.

...But then I remember that shit can already be solved by having decent welfare.
It's only after playing Democracy 3 that I realized that decent welfare is basically a myth.
In order to provide state services and welfare, the government has to make income, and seeing as there currently isn't any state-run businesses, that income is just made from taxing corporations and people who work.
Corporations which are pretty happy to just move their offices somewhere else so they don't have to deal with your shitty taxes.
I have no idea if the automation revolution is going to make this situation better or worse, as bigger corporations have more power whilst relying on less people.

Could be cute if big pharma or something ends up being the ones designing the first synth or domestic ai, and then when the government tries to seize the method of production, there's a grand robot exodus as the whole company goes 'Nope, we're moving to X', and suddenly the country has backslid.
Could be the only path we'll have to socialism is with a corporate republic, and it'll end up being very cyberpunk and quite shit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on June 14, 2017, 01:04:47 am
Which is why capitalism breaks down with automation. If you can make enough for 100% of the population with 5% of the population working, there are no jobs for the other 95%, and so far as capitalism is concerned, they can most efficiently be put to use if they go die in a hole, and the system will quite successfully work towards that end. Capitalism is all about physical capital, not people or society; that system, its corporations, its concentrated wealth where capital creates capital for the sole benefit of those who have capital... all need to go if human values are to be held as higher than capitalism's values. That's what makes it Fully Automated Luxury Communism, rather than Fully Automated Luxury Capitalism For The Benefit Of The Rich Survivors.

As for the Luxury bit, that comes down to what happens next. Supply everyone's needs, and ensure they will continue to be supplied, and you will end up with a lot of things happening. Suddenly you've got an entire class of people freed from jobs they hate which were useless to society anyway who can pursue their interests. Art, philosophy, posting videos of their cat with a box on its head; all those things that will not be fully automated precisely because they have no value to Capitalism (okay, so the cat one might be automated). "Tax the rich" is very much a misconception, as it's as similarly revolutionary a shift in how society functions as the transition from subsistence farming to cities founded on excess harvests. Not a policy change, but rather a fundamental change to how society operates based on that fact that all these people are no longer necessary for survival and are worthless to traditional economics, and society can choose to either value people for existing or discard them. The themes of cyberpunk, essentially.


Edit, further musings. As for a barometer of how close to this we are? I'm not entirely sure. From what I recall (and have unfortunately lost the source, so it may be entirely inaccurate), 2/3 of dollars 'earned' are currently compensation for labor (from fry cooks to CEOs making tens of millions). 1/3 of dollars 'earned' come from interest from owning a thing; with something like 1/2 or 1/3 of that going to the very top 1% (or maybe 0.1%? can't quite recall). So that would be 1/3 of income you can redistribute without touching labor revenue, and involves things like stocks. Me personally, over the past 1.5 years, the value I've extracted from society in such a manner is approximately equal to working a full time minimum wage job, for absolutely nothing other than owning stuff! The great irony being, the only reason to hoard wealth like this is because of a lack of stable socialist systems that would guarantee a decent retirement or secure income in the case of illness. Which is really the *entire* reason the middle and upper middle class own financial assets. So maybe that's an indication of how silly things are already.

Editedit: to clarify, US centric figures; some countries have moved in the direction of nationalized wealth funds, most notably Norway's fund originating from a nationalized oil industry https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 14, 2017, 03:48:54 am
I do sometimes wonder why people make things in such inefficient ways. Maybe beard combs are designed to be as hipster and look as oldschool as possible, at the expense of actually doing the job.
Or it could just be a breakage prevention thing.
I hope hipsters decide beards are lame soon, sick of the fuckers already, but I originally thought the breakage prevention thing was the reason too.

Then I started whittling and hacking away at these fuckers, no way in hell it has anything to do with breakage, if for some reason you break one of these it's because you got shot with it in your pocket, or fell and embedded it in your face, chipping it on your skull, or were in a nuclear blast.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As for the Luxury bit, that comes down to what happens next. Supply everyone's needs, and ensure they will continue to be supplied, and you will end up with a lot of things happening. Suddenly you've got an entire class of people freed from jobs they hate which were useless to society anyway who can pursue their interests. Art, philosophy, posting videos of their cat with a box on its head; all those things that will not be fully automated precisely because they have no value to Capitalism (okay, so the cat one might be automated). "Tax the rich" is very much a misconception, as it's as similarly revolutionary a shift in how society functions as the transition from subsistence farming to cities founded on excess harvests. Not a policy change, but rather a fundamental change to how society operates based on that fact that all these people are no longer necessary for survival and are worthless to traditional economics, and society can choose to either value people for existing or discard them. The themes of cyberpunk, essentially.
It's not a theme of the stories, but The Culture is the best example, I think, of a truly communist utopia, but yeah, making things because you like them, like doing it, jobs involving performance as part of the task itself like slapping pizza dough with big dramatic spins and tosses for the hell of it, that's fun, worth doing for some sort of payment.

Pushing artificially over-valued objects around for artificial increases in that value so you can have a little portion of it chipped off so you can use it to purchase other over-valued objects including ones you require to live?

Nah, fuck capitalism in the ass, fuck supply and demand "invisible hand" bullshit.
The great irony being, the only reason to hoard wealth like this is because of a lack of stable socialist systems that would guarantee a decent retirement or secure income in the case of illness. Which is really the *entire* reason the middle and upper middle class own financial assets. So maybe that's an indication of how silly things are already.
You can probably hear my eye twitching from there, had I a monocle it would have shattered when it hit the wall.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on June 14, 2017, 04:03:56 am
Thoughts on modern comb design:

Utility over aesthetics.

The curved toothline of a modern come is there because the main place you use a comb is on the head, not the beard.  The head is curvaceous, and a curved comb will have all the teeth touching the scalp.

The thick and fine teeth on the same comb is for utility. For the price of 1 comb, you can get 2 combs worth of utiity. A detangling comb (big wide teeth) and a straightening comb (finely spaced small teeth). Just flip the comb around for the job you are doing.

For special uses, combs are still specialty items. Picks for instance, or combs for very curly hair, or for holding hair in place rather than grooming it.

Rather than wood though, I would suggest ABS plastic and a good 3D printer. With vapor smoothing, you can get a very nice finish on the resulting comb. Sufficiently smooth that you can make an injection cast mold from it, and reproduce it with other materials.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 14, 2017, 04:21:42 am
Pushing artificially over-valued objects around for artificial increases in that value so you can have a little portion of it chipped off so you can use it to purchase other over-valued objects including ones you require to live?
Nah, fuck capitalism in the ass, fuck supply and demand "invisible hand" bullshit.
Sad thing is, you have to realize that the people who will be pushing the boundaries of artificial intelligence are the same people who stand to profit off it.
State-Sponsored science is pretty inadequate in most cases.
So yeah, we could try for the socialism thing, but considering that the capitalists will be the ones with the high walls and killer robots, good job getting there.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 14, 2017, 05:10:21 am
Thoughts on modern comb design:

Utility over aesthetics.

The curved toothline of a modern come is there because the main place you use a comb is on the head, not the beard.  The head is curvaceous, and a curved comb will have all the teeth touching the scalp.

The thick and fine teeth on the same comb is for utility. For the price of 1 comb, you can get 2 combs worth of utiity. A detangling comb (big wide teeth) and a straightening comb (finely spaced small teeth). Just flip the comb around for the job you are doing.

For special uses, combs are still specialty items. Picks for instance, or combs for very curly hair, or for holding hair in place rather than grooming it.

Rather than wood though, I would suggest ABS plastic and a good 3D printer. With vapor smoothing, you can get a very nice finish on the resulting comb. Sufficiently smooth that you can make an injection cast mold from it, and reproduce it with other materials.
I like working with wood though, this isn't about doing it optimally, it's about making something that I enjoy having made. The combs in the post above yours both had teeth the same length and annoying ass end bars, now the one on the left has the shape I found useful for beard stuff, the one on the right has smoothed down and rounded off end bars and unsharpened teeth now. I could probably find similar designs, but it's satisfying making the ones we had into something I like more.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 14, 2017, 05:42:22 am
Not sure if wood will be a good material for it. My mind is sent to a certain podcaster talking about his wooden toothbrush exploding in his mouth.
Old combs were made out of bone or horn or something, yeah? Depending on your level of carnivorism. Also pretty sure Ivory might be slightly illegal/immoral nowadays.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on June 14, 2017, 05:51:36 am
Wooden combs were common. It needs to be a hardwood, and needs to be either polished or sealed with a varnish/finish of some kind. Boiling in hide glue and then polishing is a good method I understand.

Some wood types are better than others. Cedar hard wood was frequently used I understand.

Traditional japanese combs for women were typically made of wood.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 14, 2017, 06:07:25 am
Yeah, I wouldn't go with wood if I hadn't already spent years messing around with it enough to know which types behave in what ways and are good for what purposes.

They are a neat bit of tech in that weird position where it's so old that people forget about it being such, and I can't actually find any convex toothline combs outside of like, shearing tools and french twist combs, which is damn weird.

I am looking forward to 3d printers getting ever cheaper though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 14, 2017, 06:24:27 am
And then the day when we culture and print wood cells.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 14, 2017, 08:09:16 am
Fuck that, I want to be able to sprinkle some powder in a fabber and have it spit out a chunk of filet mignon!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 14, 2017, 08:40:36 am
Actually there is a sound economic basis for welfare, you can derive it from what's called fiscal multipliers. e.g. a dollar spent on any particular thing is going to stimulate the economy to some degree, and that's different depending on what you spend it on.

For example, tax breaks for millionaires produce 30 cents of GDP for every dollar returned. So if you tax a millionaire $1 extra, you lose 30 cents in GDP, and if you give back $1 you gain 30 cents in GDP.

However ... food stamps produce about $1.70 in GDP for every dollar spent. That's because that dollar goes through the most possible people's hands before it's saved in a bank account somewhere. So, a millionaire's big fat bank account isn't actually a very efficient form of economic stimulus. If you take a dollar from him and give it to some poor person, the overall national GDP will rise by almost $1.50.

So there's nothing fucking magical about tax breaks that makes more GDP happen. If you give back $1 in taxes, we already know how much GDP is going to be impacted by that, we have the data on that. Taxes are just negative spending and spending is just negative taxes.

The apologists for the rich like to talk about the economy like it's a zero-sum game, as if, if we stop feeding the poor then the middle class will "get their taxes back" but this is bullshit. A starving underclass is going to drive down your wages through wage competition, probably losing you more wealth than any theoretical saving. Meanwhile, crime will skyrocket due to deprivation and hunger, and they'll spend 50 times as much as welfare ever cost, locking up the starving peasants in prison.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on June 14, 2017, 12:14:13 pm
Aaaaand... another Uber top man is forced to resign.
74-year old billionaire and board member David Bonderman is forced to resign, after making a sexist joke on a board meeting on how to combat the sexism within Uber's culture.

When fellow board member Arianna Huffington said that having one female board member increases the chance of getting another female board member, Bonderman replied that "the only chance that increases is the chance for more bullocks".

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on June 14, 2017, 02:16:48 pm
[/b]When fellow board member Arianna Huffington said that having one female board member increases the chance of getting another female board member, Bonderman replied that "the only chance that increases is the chance for more bullocks".

How can you be that bad at anatomy?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 14, 2017, 07:05:33 pm
When he says 'Bullocks' does he mean young male cattle?
Because that sounds like reverse sexism.

So there's nothing fucking magical about tax breaks that makes more GDP happen.
On the one hand that's really interesting stuff, and on the other hand, the whole 'More poor people spending more poordollars on their little necessities is good for the economy' thing makes me feel even more depressed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 14, 2017, 07:43:31 pm
The traditional meaning of bullock is a castrated male bull. The guy's pretty old so my guess is that he meant that deliberately, i.e. women board members would "castrate" the men, turning them into girly men instead of cigar smoking, whisky-chugging men's men.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 14, 2017, 09:07:04 pm
Quote from: Wiku
Bullock may refer to:

    Bullock (in British English), a castrated male bovine animal of any age
    Bullock (in North America), a young bull (an uncastrated male bovine animal)
    Bullock (in Australia and New Zealand), an ox, an adult bovine animal used for draught (usually but not always a castrated male)
UBER is an American company yeah?

My guess was 'Having a woman on the board will attract a bunch of young blood'.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on June 14, 2017, 09:11:04 pm
wtf that's the opposite meaning between ameringlish and bringlish.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 14, 2017, 10:51:16 pm
The guy is 74 years old, my guess is that his use of the language could be a little different. "Bullock" isn't a term that comes up in general conversation, like at all. So I think saying that he must be for sure be using one dictionary meaning over the other since he's an American isn't actually much of a sure thing.

I think it's clear that "attracting young blood" to the company wasn't the meaning. Maybe he meant that having women around would turn the guys into horny animals instead.

Or ... he could have meant bollocks / bullshit but it's been reported as "bullocks" because the US press doesn't know the slang.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on June 14, 2017, 11:13:45 pm
... Has no one here ever heard or used bollocks in a sentence before? A load of bollocks? That's bollocks? You've bollocksed it up?
The former two uses, as a noun, are synonyms of 'nonsense.' As a verb, is 'to make a mess of things.' With testicular overtones to give it the quality of a swear word. They're certainly not using some technical farming term; the only time a bunch of rich execs have even seen a farm in person was probably when their private $15k a year elementary school took them on a field trip to one. They're saying 'more women = more problematic messes with sexism like the ones we currently have.' A fairly common justification at terrible tech workplaces which constantly get sued for repeatedly failing to deal with their company's internal sexism and sexual harassment problems.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 15, 2017, 12:21:10 am
Damn. Probably right. For some reason I thought old fashioned Texan rancher.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 15, 2017, 12:29:37 am
Actually, I'm having trouble finding any reference that has Martinuz's wording in it. Martinuz provided the reference in quotations so it would look like a quote, but searching for that quote (or the word bullock in this context) doesn't bring up any references. So perhaps Martinuz got this from the Dutch press and there's been some sort of comminucations failure one way or the other?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 15, 2017, 12:40:10 am
And yet he's being asked to resign.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on June 15, 2017, 01:58:59 am
Alway, he said "Bullock", so unless it's a misspelling, then it's not "bollocks"
I probably misspelled it. I am not sure if he actually said bollocks, I translated it back from dutch from being translated from english. He said something along the line of 'bollocks, drivel, tattle, twaddle, etc.'
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on June 15, 2017, 02:04:04 am
My guess is that it was "Balls in the room", referring to the conception that this woman had a pair by making such a statement (more women needed) at the board meeting.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on June 15, 2017, 02:19:20 am
God, what did I start?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 15, 2017, 02:42:53 am
Ah, drivel then. That makes more sense, and is also sexist.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 15, 2017, 02:47:06 am
Lol, Martinuz the Americans were confused because "bollocks" is a very British phrase, basically never used in America, and you also put quotes around what was effectively a paraphrase which suggested you were citing the statement verbatim from the English press. Plus "bullock" is an entirely different word. it was very confusing.

BTW, One of the Google Deep Dream programmers is playing around with adversarial networks trained on human photos that attempts to make novel faces, it's some real pretty stuff:

https://www.inverse.com/article/32663-deep-learning-ai-machine-learning-art-painting-portrait-deepdream-google?utm_content=inf_10_3448_2&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=jabra&utm_campaign=influencer&tse_id=INF_191477d0511e11e790011d41b85aaeb5
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on June 15, 2017, 05:32:15 am
Hmm. I want that so I can generate new faces for roleplaying characters.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 15, 2017, 06:09:27 am
I'd like to note that I'm not American and 'Bollocks' doesn't confuse me.
For simply no other reason than my pride.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on June 20, 2017, 03:23:36 am
Cellphone and internet outages reported in USA. Apparently a fiber line was cut by accident.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 20, 2017, 03:57:17 am
On the bright side, with internet outages you're 100% less hackable by Russian operatives now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on June 20, 2017, 04:43:18 am
I remember when we'd lose parts of the internet (but none of the web, because the web hadn't even been discovered, yet..!) and we'd all talk 'knowledgeably' about the Fat Pipe across the Atlantic having gone down.  Unless it was a problem with JANET.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on June 20, 2017, 04:58:03 am
The biggest threat to transatlantic internet cables are.... whales. Apparently they really enjoy toying with wires at 4km depth on the sea bottom.

So if your internet fails you, just sue Greenpeace.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cyroth on June 20, 2017, 07:18:45 am
The biggest threat to transatlantic internet cables are.... whales. Apparently they really enjoy toying with wires at 4km depth on the sea bottom.

So if your internet fails you, just sue Greenpeace.

Clearly, in that case one needs to burn whale tallow candles in front of the Greenpeace headquarters in the Netherlands. Screw whales, I need my amazon.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: hops on June 20, 2017, 07:33:51 am
inb4 a guy who lost his leg due to an internet blackout-related mishap goes on a mad quest to kill a whale.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on June 20, 2017, 07:38:00 am
Better off they don't. Too much of (the wrong kind of) the internet can physically damage a part of one's body.   Make's it go all moby. Nasty injury, that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on June 28, 2017, 12:17:25 am
Tank meat inches closer to reality. (https://qz.com/1015757/vegan-mayo-startup-hampton-creek-is-producing-lab-made-meat-and-it-wants-to-sell-in-walmart-wmt-and-whole-foods-wfm/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 28, 2017, 02:08:48 am
I heard on the internet once that artificial meat will be to animal husbandry what the tractor was to slavery.
Very interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on June 28, 2017, 02:14:57 am
I heard on the internet once that artificial meat will be to animal husbandry what the tractor was to slavery.
Very interesting stuff.

Something that will become widespread after a great civil war destroy the latter?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 28, 2017, 02:25:46 am
Something which will change it from a moral quandry into a moral certainty, simply by being more economically viable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on June 28, 2017, 02:28:16 am
The civil war in the US was as much economically driven as it was sociologically driven. Much of the slavery that went on had little if anything to do with agricultural processes either.

http://teachinghistory.org/history-content/beyond-the-textbook/23912

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on June 28, 2017, 04:50:06 am
Will this result in Cattle Emancipation?

(Jokes about not-your-type-of-voter already mindlessly herd-voting for not-your-choice-of-result will now be considered obligatory. Or flock-voting if they also do poultry. Turkeys/Christmas being a given.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 28, 2017, 04:59:35 am
(Emancipated bovines joining the union army. Cows with Guns reference)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 28, 2017, 05:29:46 am
Similarly, there's synthetic milk coming onto the market (http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/16/a-more-perfect-milk-start-up-wants-to-make-milk-that-scratches-the-itch-of-dairy.html) which uses modified plant sources to make milk proteins, so the taste is much closer to real milk. Also, it can be used as the basis for non-dairy cheeses and yogurts without having to vastly change things. This stuff could take over because the land use and water requirements are far less than a dairy farm.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on June 28, 2017, 05:32:14 am
Considering the vast majority of dairy farms in the first world operate at a loss, why the heck not.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on June 28, 2017, 05:37:47 am
Fat content?

I cant STAND 2% milk. Vile, horrible stuff.  Sadly, also becoming lactose intolerant it seems. Do much better with the best value fake lactaid (as in generic brand) milk-- but still get the whole milk kind.

Plant protein derived alternative would probably be cheaper, and if it had the right fat content, and tasted right (the lactaid stuff is sweeter than normal milk, because the lactose is broken down by lactase in the milk) I would be down for it-- but if it reproduces the taste and mouth feel of 2%, fuck that shit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 28, 2017, 05:56:46 am
You'll be happy to know the synth-milk they're making doesn't contain lactose. They already know that lactose intolerance is a thing, so they used plant sugars along with casein/whey proteins.

I'm sure they'll make a range of fat contents as well.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on July 06, 2017, 04:30:52 am
A team of students from my hometown's university, that proved last year they could run a small miniature car on formic acid, has now upscaled their design.
Eindhoven is now the first city in the world to have a city bus that runs on formic acid.

Formic acid is interesting, because it's a good energy carrier, and contrary to hydrogen, can be stored at room temperature without needing pressure tanks.
It also is not flammable, and cannot explode. It's nicknamed 'Hydrogen 2.0' by the student team. It is also CO2-neutral.

Formic acid can be created by having CO2 and H2 react with each other. It can then be easily stored in plastic tanks. To turn it into power for an electric engine, two steps are nescessary. First a reformer (catalyst) turnes the formic acid back into CO2 and H2, then the latter is used by fuel cells to produce water and electricity.

Up until recently, it was hard to produce the hydrogen fast, and in meaningful quantities. With another invention from Eindhoven University, namely that adding ruthenium to the catalyst vastly increased performance, the students had no trouble upsizing their engine prototype to a size that can drive a city bus.

"One of the main challenges was to create a reliable reformer, one that doesn't break every week. The reformer that drives the bus now, has been performing without falure for three months now during the test phase. In our lab, we have a similar reformer that has been running non stop for 2 years now.
Another big challenge was increasing reformer speed, so it could be made smaller. Our first prototype had a volume of 200 liters. Our current design is only 20. It produces enough hydrogen per minute to allow the fuel cells to provide 10 to 15 kW netto output."

Now this isn't strong enough to drive the bus. However, it is enough to keep the bus' batteries charged over the course of the day. With a tank of 300 liters of formic acid, the action radius of the electric bus increases from 80 to 300 kilometers. This means in practice, that the city busses will no longer need to return to loading stations to reacharge their batteries during their daily schedules.

The main benefit of formic acid, is that it can be tanked easily. This makes it suitable for normal cars as well. With 50 liters of formic acid, an electric car would be able to drive about 250km. Gas station owners who want to supply formic acid don't need to invest 1.5 million like they would need for hydrogen service. For a mere 30-40k existing tanks and pumps can be refitted.

There's still challenges though. For instance, a lot of energy is lost in the transition. the so called 'wheel to wheel ratio' of formic acid is about 33%, meaning that two thirds of the energy put into the system is wasted. Still better than hydrogen though, which has a wheel to wheel ratio of 25%.

Another big advantage is that formic acid tanks can be shaped and molded into any desired form. Contrary to hydrogen tanks, which need to be cylindrical to withstand the huge 700 bar pressure. This restriction has made it hard to fit fuel tanks for more than 5 liters of hydrogen into a car. Obviously, formic acid tanks allow for much more design freedom.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on July 06, 2017, 07:25:52 am
Energy density has to be shit though - just look at all the oxygen in the molecule.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on July 06, 2017, 07:28:34 am
Energy density has to be shit though - just look at all the oxygen in the molecule.

Your MOM is full of oxygen.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on July 06, 2017, 07:37:49 am
-snip-
Now watch as it goes nowhere for decades because of the oil lobbyists.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 06, 2017, 09:28:49 am
It's nicknamed 'Hydrogen 2.0' by the student team.
I would have lobbied to call it "anty-hydrogen"...  ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on July 06, 2017, 10:42:15 am
Energy density has to be shit though - just look at all the oxygen in the molecule.

Your MOM is full of oxygen.
Naah, MOM contains just one oxygen.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on July 06, 2017, 11:25:22 am
Energy density has to be shit though - just look at all the oxygen in the molecule.

Your MOM is full of oxygen.
Naah, MOM contains just one oxygen.

There isn't an element with a shorthand that is just 'M' though, unless you flip it so it becomes WOW, the W being Tungsten.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on July 06, 2017, 11:27:52 am
Energy density has to be shit though - just look at all the oxygen in the molecule.

Your MOM is full of oxygen.
Naah, MOM contains just one oxygen.
There isn't an element with a shorthand that is just 'M' though, unless you flip it so it becomes WOW, the W being Tungsten.
M stands for Yourmomium.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on July 06, 2017, 12:25:25 pm
Energy density has to be shit though - just look at all the oxygen in the molecule.

Your MOM is full of oxygen.
Naah, MOM contains just one oxygen.

There isn't an element with a shorthand that is just 'M' though, unless you flip it so it becomes WOW, the W being Tungsten.
Context. (http://www.synarchive.com/protecting-group/Phenol_Methoxymethyl_acetal)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 06, 2017, 12:29:37 pm
unless you flip it so it becomes WOW

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on July 06, 2017, 05:51:22 pm
Energy density has to be shit though - just look at all the oxygen in the molecule.

Your MOM is full of oxygen.
Naah, MOM contains just one oxygen.
Uh, your mom is full of amino acids, which are amines and carboxyl groups.

HCO2H is 2/5 Hydrogen, but I've never thought of Oxygen as a... low energy atom, I mean, the various terrifying hydrogen compounds don't have shit on fun stuff you can do with a couple oxygens and a couple flourines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxygen_difluoride).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 06, 2017, 06:29:46 pm
The rest state of an oxygen compound tends towards stable. FOOF is hardly...  'stable'. That being the point (and or 'amusement potential') of it.

It all depends on which possibly elevated and small-in-size perch in the energy-landscape the molecule resides in, more than just which atoms are there.  N2 is fairly unreactive,  but C2N14 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201100300/abstract) isn't. Unsurprisingly, to anyone who understands what an "Azidotetrazole" might be.  ;)

And hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane even has O2s in it. Not sure that helps, though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on July 06, 2017, 06:42:27 pm
Anything with more than 1 z is scary, if there is also more than 1 x I'm terrified before you start telling me that it has stuff like "tetra" or "nitro" or "hexa" and a "tane" for good measure.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on July 06, 2017, 06:53:44 pm
A team of students from my hometown's university, that proved last year they could run a small miniature car on formic acid, has now upscaled their design.
Have the fellows released a scholarly article yet?
Would be very keen to give it a peek

Also, unsure if that was firsthand writing but if so, very journalism, much concise, well entertain, good read.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on July 06, 2017, 07:01:22 pm
HCO2H is 2/5 Hydrogen, but I've never thought of Oxygen as a... low energy atom, I mean, the various terrifying hydrogen compounds don't have shit on fun stuff you can do with a couple oxygens and a couple flourines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxygen_difluoride).
Unless you're looking at nuclear reactions, all the relevant energy is in the bonds, not the atoms themselves. And in formic acid a lot of bonds are already low-energy, since they're the same type of bond that occurs in the combustion product. It's not too inaccurate to think of formic acid as CO2 + H2, or rather CO + H2O. So for every hydrogen molecule that's "stored" in a molecule of formic acid, you're lugging around a whole molecule of carbon dioxide.

That's why gasoline is such a great fuel: All the bonds in there are energy-rich, so everything that you're lugging around with you is actually useful.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 06, 2017, 07:41:49 pm
(After a bit of link-following...  I'm now intrigued by P3N21 (https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/znb.1955.10.issue-2/znb-1955-0218/znb-1955-0218.xml) Or, to be precise, 2.2.4.4.6.6hexa-azido-2.4.6-triphospha-1.3.5-triazine.  I better stop now, lest I get on a List or something.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on July 07, 2017, 01:08:27 am
A team of students from my hometown's university, that proved last year they could run a small miniature car on formic acid, has now upscaled their design.
Have the fellows released a scholarly article yet?
Would be very keen to give it a peek

Also, unsure if that was firsthand writing but if so, very journalism, much concise, well entertain, good read.
Not sure if they released a scholarly article yet. What I wrote was freely translated from a Volkskrant article.
here is the article:
http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/deze-stadsbus-in-eindhoven-rijdt-nu-op-mierenzuur-en-dat-is-behoorlijk-revolutionair~a4504850/

Their scale model prototype, made in 2016, made all kinds of media though, including but not limited to Discovery Channel and Russia Today.

Here's a link to the university newspaper: https://www.tue.nl/en/university/news-and-press/news/03-07-2017-how-to-power-a-bus-on-formic-acid/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: sluissa on July 08, 2017, 09:03:31 am
Powering things with formic acid has some interesting mind images. From horrid Alien-esque biotechnology. All the way to silly Flintstones derived ideas of "technology." "Oh, my ant engine has indigestion today."

Granted, I know formic acid exists outside of ant butts, but that's where its inextricably tied to in my mind.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on July 08, 2017, 02:15:20 pm
HCO2H is 2/5 Hydrogen, but I've never thought of Oxygen as a... low energy atom, I mean, the various terrifying hydrogen compounds don't have shit on fun stuff you can do with a couple oxygens and a couple flourines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxygen_difluoride).
[snipped stuff I knew][/snipped stuff I knew]
Feels like that post would have better served someone who lacks basic chemistry knowledge.
Powering things with formic acid has some interesting mind images. From horrid Alien-esque biotechnology. All the way to silly Flintstones derived ideas of "technology." "Oh, my ant engine has indigestion today."

Granted, I know formic acid exists outside of ant butts, but that's where its inextricably tied to in my mind.
I had the image of drone engines swarming after the queen engine grows wings and her mates join her.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on July 08, 2017, 04:23:03 pm
You forgot the best part about formic acid. Who wouldn't like a car that has fuel that can double as meat tenderizer or salad dressing?

EDIT: hmmwait, I though vinegar also had formic acid as an ingredient. Apparently I remembered wrongly, it's acetic acid. Formic acid should be good as well though for meat and salads. The SAS survival handbook says the formic acid in ants, when eating them alive, gives them a fresh, lemon-like flavour.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on July 08, 2017, 05:22:32 pm
EDIT: I forgot how to chemistry.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 08, 2017, 07:24:16 pm
Formic Acid: H(CO)OH
Dicarboxylic Acid: HO(CO)R(CO)OH
Those - using a non-standard notation for this explanation only - are 'straight through' chains, each, with (CO) being a C in the chain having an O-double-bonded off to the side, and R  being pretty much any midchain radical you want, including nothing at all for Oxalic Acid, HO(CO)(CO)OH. Formic is monocarboxylic.

Similarly notated, we have Carbonic Acid that is HO(CO)OH and Acetic Acid that is H(CH2)(CO)OH. I'm looking at it carefully and sure that you can't conceivably get a simpler type of acid than Formic without it not being actually carboxylic at all, any more.

Unless you've found a good counterexample whilst using hemp-products, maybe...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: inteuniso on July 08, 2017, 11:53:34 pm
No, you're correct.  HO(CO)(CO)OH [//no R] has uses besides crystallization/formation of amino acids, but I'm not quite sure of all of them yet.

Back on the Formic acid front, though, I wonder if it can be used as a catalyst for crystallizing carbon into sheets of graphene? There certainly seems to be enough of the stuff floating around, more accessible to people than hemp straw. I think. I'm not really sure of the specifics of how industry works.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 09, 2017, 02:10:01 am
They're calling their formic acid mix Hydrozine? That seems like a terrible name for a domestic vehicle fuel, considering that the better-known Hydrazine is a highly volatile and toxic compound once used as a component of the rocket fuel in the Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet and also used in the space shuttle boosters.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 09, 2017, 02:13:53 am
Well, compared to my own prior suggestion:
I would have lobbied to call it "anty-hydrogen"...  ;)
…hydr(a|o)zine is positively benign!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on July 09, 2017, 02:34:53 am
That gets confusing quickly.  If you say you want anti-anty hydrogen, do you mean that it is the antimatter equivalent to formic acid, made entirely of antiatoms, or do you mean that there is some alternative to ants, such as say, termites, that causes violent mutual annihilation upon exposure?

See, this gets very confusing very quickly...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 09, 2017, 04:37:18 am
See, this gets very confusing very quickly...
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/8fen5LSZcHQ5O/200_s.gif)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on October 12, 2017, 01:56:03 pm
The student team from Delft university managed to get their car battery cleared from the Singapore airport in time to participate in the yearly Bridgestone World Solar Challenge in Australia...
And they won it for the 7th time!

It took them 4 days and 6 hours to complete the 3000km track through Australia, with a top speed of 110 km/h, and an average speed of over 80 km/h.

Not bad, for self-sufficient solar power

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuna

wiki not updated yet for latest win
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 12, 2017, 02:11:14 pm
That's nice in terms of engineering, but if you want to convince people that it's a viable tech you want to look at the cruiser class:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Sunswift_eVe_1.jpg/330px-Sunswift_eVe_1.jpg)

Sunswift (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNSW_Sunswift) can travel 500 km on a single battery charge, or 800 km with battery + solar. Also, it has a passenger seat. So ... about 40% of the power needed for this car can come from solar. That's getting there, you could see how with design and material improvements you could get another 20-30% of the way, then if they can get photovoltaic cells above 30% efficiency (they're 23% now) then you're heading towards viable solar car territory.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on October 12, 2017, 02:14:02 pm
Yeah, my hometown university has been working on that for quite a while now as well.

https://solarteameindhoven.nl/stella-vie/stella-lux/ (https://solarteameindhoven.nl/stella-vie/stella-lux/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuND8epNLec (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuND8epNLec)

full documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SMCZ-lXBvA
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 12, 2017, 02:15:10 pm
I just posted a (different, just to not repeat myself) link to this about a high temperature pump (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/10/171011131724.htm) in the Science thread, while searching for this one. You must have updated the thread timestamp whilst I was flipping past its newer location, before I got to its older chronological one, then I saw the Science one.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 12, 2017, 02:30:25 pm
The current breakthrough solar tech has an efficiency of 40% (http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4803), by using layers which trap different frequencies. That hasn't trickled down to the solar car people yet however, who are using 23-26% cells. So the next-gen solar cars could be using much better cells.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on November 03, 2017, 10:33:57 am
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/02/561608576/massive-government-report-says-climate-is-warming-and-humans-are-the-cause

Man made global warming yet again confirmed as a thing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on November 03, 2017, 10:37:38 am
Nobody could have predicted this outcome.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 03, 2017, 12:28:19 pm
But how much did doing the massive government report add to global warming? Answer me that, scientists. /s
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 03, 2017, 02:26:37 pm
I still think (and I've said it often, so forgive me if I've already repeated it here on this forum) that most people - at least in the US - don't really care if global warming is man-made or not.  What people care about is how much it's going to personally cost them to fix in either direct costs or in terms of having to give up something they currently enjoy.

It also doesn't help that if one person sacrifices, it means almost nothing - it's kind of like immunizations. You need 95% of the population to take action to have any meaningful effect.

It's also annoying when as an individual you can reduce commuting, buy an electric car, whatever, and then you see a garbage truck belching black sooty smoke down the street, which just basically erased every action you took.

Part of it is that the mitigating technologies are more expensive today than their alternatives, with the idea that in the future costs will be lower - but that's a tough concept for most people.  Just look at electric cars - they have an easily computable lower TCO compared to ICE, but their up-front costs for a comparable vehicle are higher - so people opt for the cheaper out-of-pocket cost even though the cumulative cost is higher.  Heck, that happens with loans in general - "I can't afford $30k for a car, but I can afford 48 payments of $700!"

Also consider Tesla's powerwall - yeah it's got a really low $/kW-hr, but you still have to buy a lot of kW-hr - you can't buy $100 worth of powerwall, you can only buy $14k worth of powerwall.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MoonyTheHuman on November 03, 2017, 02:43:20 pm
On a tech note, its currently page 00000010 (big-endian)
128bit dwarf fortress when. (Well, its already partially 128bit thanks to SSE, but fully 128bit when.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on November 03, 2017, 02:50:41 pm
...Nope, it's page 00101000.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 03, 2017, 03:43:11 pm
One thing about the TCO thing or car loans costing more than the up front costs, those aren't necessarily economically irrational or short-sighted choices.

E.g say with loans you say someone "wasted" 5000 to get a 30000 car, you have to take opportunity costs into account. If you wait to save for the whole car then you "save" 5000 .... but what income are you missing out on, and do you have to pay for buses, delivery fees, ubers, taxis during the time while saving up?

Also if you buy upfront then you lose out on any potential earnings that the same money could make you. E.g. perhaps the 30k could be a downpayment on a house, (or mortgage reoayments, having a knock on effect far greater than 5000), so now you no longer need to pay rent, saving a lot of money. You can't view the car purchase in isolation as an economically irrational choice, just because of TCO.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 04, 2017, 08:35:36 pm
Flipsid argument:

You save the money by driving your old car longer, are more mindful of unneeded travel to avoid breakdowns and fuel use, and make use of the recently increased fed interest rates to allow your savings to grow by making interest work for you rather than against.

To be fair, that requires meticulous planning and execution to pull off and stay ahead, but if you are a cinsumate savings person, you can accrue enough from normal conservation to greatly increase your rates of return when saving for the vehicle. (Many banks offer high yield savings plans for patrons with a relationship holding over a certain amount, because those holdings are used to determine how much the bank can loan out. After a certain threshold, the bank pays you more to keep your money in THEIR bank, and if you pretend that money does not exist, for the purposes of your planned major expense, your efficiency at using the bank to add to your finances via interest increases.) increases in the fed rate result in increases in these interest rates due to completion. While the current fed rate is still shot compared to 90s figures, it is going up, and is projected to increase this Dec.

To have a good plan for that, you need specifics, and a general post like this is not a good vehicle for it, but such planning is possible in a nontrivial number of cases.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 04, 2017, 09:01:36 pm
Sure, I concur. But that's in line with my main point that it's wrong to view an economic choice in isolation without looking at the holistic situation.

There's also another point however: often the people getting these small loans aren't actually good at managing cash money in their lives. If that's true, then locking themselves into loan repayments could in fact be a way that they enforce some fiscal discipline on themselves. They could be aware that they'd actually fritter away more than $5K while trying to save the $30K, whereas getting the car loan then repaying $35K over 48 months would enforce strict budgeting. And some of those stricter budgeting habits could in fact carry over after the loan is paid off, leaving them more financially capable as a result of the repayment experience.

Quote
It's also annoying when as an individual you can reduce commuting, buy an electric car, whatever, and then you see a garbage truck belching black sooty smoke down the street, which just basically erased every action you took.

I have an issue with this statement too. It's a gut feeling but not really much more than that.

Your actions have a measurable reduction on emissions. If you eat hamburgers or steak you are in fact undoing what you gained by buying the electric car (cows fart methane, 25 times worse than CO2). The truck was going to happen whether or not you emitted anything. If you didn't reduce your emissions it would be you plus the truck. And electric garbage trucks are coming. (https://qz.com/749622/the-economics-of-electric-garbage-trucks-are-awesome/) Since emissions are entirely cumulative every little bit helps.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 05, 2017, 01:04:04 pm


Quote
It's also annoying when as an individual you can reduce commuting, buy an electric car, whatever, and then you see a garbage truck belching black sooty smoke down the street, which just basically erased every action you took.

I have an issue with this statement too. It's a gut feeling but not really much more than that.


I'm totally with you on this one - personal efforts do indeed matter, but I was just observing one of the factors that is tied in with the "well all it takes is a single truck or whatever to undo my things" feeling of futility on individual actions, especially in western individualistic cultures where people make personal sacrifices and see others not making those sacrifices and then wonder why they even bother.

Also, the argument about steak or whatever is the same as the garbage truck - An individual that is going to eat steak anyway but buys an electric vehicle instead of a hydrocarbon vehicle is going to have a net reduction, just the same as "the garbage truck was going to be there anyway."  But if you say a person has to stop eating steak, that runs afoul of that "feeling of high personal cost" I initially mentioned.

Also - yeah, the economics discussion about payments isn't always simple - but the general rule of economic discussion is "all else equal". So throwing in "but if you have to save for a car instead of buying one means you get a lower-paying job, etc." is not keeping all else equal.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 01:42:20 pm
Quote
Also - yeah, the economics discussion about payments isn't always simple - but the general rule of economic discussion is "all else equal".

No, sorry, these are dependent variables / opportunity costs, we're talking about. Externalities and opportunity costs to a decision are a very real thing, and they are important to consider in any economic decision. If you're not taking these into account, even the ones that affect the decision maker themselves, and are completely known variables, then it's only a student-level textbook math puzzle that's not designed to model the real world. What you're saying is equivalent to a physics student saying "well the general rule of physics discussion is that we treat all masses as points with no friction". That's correct that you can simplify thinking about things by assuming most of reality doesn't exist, but it's not a valid counter-argument against engineers taking those things into account.

If you get a home loan, you don't have to pay rent, so any cost/benefit analysis of the decision to get a loan to buy a home is severely flawed if it doesn't take that into account (the rent payments are opportunity cost).

If you get a car loan, you don't have to take whather transport options you did before you had the car, which needs to factor into the economic case. Also, if you sold your old car to get the new one then the money not spent on things like needed repairs on the old car need to be factored into the economic decision, that's a dependent variable, because money that you're not spending because of the decision under question is not an "all else equal" variable: if your old car was kaput and needs $5000 of engine work to remain roadworthy, then clearly whatever alternative choice you have to repairing it is $5000 more attractive.

If you get a car, you can also secure employment. That's not an independent variable, it's a dependent variable: the car isn't incidental in that. Or, if you're self-employed and having the new vehicle means you can expand your business, it would just be wrong economically to not consider that in the decision.

Also, as for saving up, "skill at saving up" is a relevant dependent variable. By locking into repayments, fiscal discipline is enforced where it's lacking. This is not an all-else-equal variable either: the amount you save by belt-tightening is dependent on the size of the repayments.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 05, 2017, 05:16:33 pm
That's a slightly different definition for externality than I'm used to(1) - but I follow you on opportunity cost.  The rest is... well it feels like a distraction from the general point which is that in general people are bad about figuring costs (you hinted at this with the notion of "skill at saving up" - which is, after all, a measure of how well people allocate their personal resources.

Anyway, back to cost of alternative energy - for those of us who don't like being tied to monthly payments (that is definitely a non-monetary cost associated with financing of all forms - even the crazy madness we have now with, say, 0% interest automobile loans has that cost of being in a contract), the minimum buy-in price for most effective energy alternatives is still quite high.  Hopefully technology developments (especially batteries) will bring that minimum cost to enter down enough to make it more attractive without turning it into a rent proposition.


(1) The definition of externality is essentially "costs that are incurred by parties not involved in a direct economic transaction". I'm not sure how that applies in the discussion above.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 06:36:40 pm
Yeah i was a bit wrong using that exact term but what I meant was clear, the idea of additional cost/benefits not captured in a simplistic straightfoward assessment. You need to calculate all consequences of the decision when deciding whether it's a good idea or not.

However in this case I was arguing that it's wrong to cite that as an example where people didn't figure out the true costs. If you are making monthly repayments of exactly X, for Y months, people are perfectly capable of multiplying the two numbers together. We're just infantilizing them to assume that paying additional interest over the base price is "irrational".

It isn't irrational because those people are factoring in their own situation and abilities into the decision about whether the costs are worth it, something our simplistic analysis of "what they should do" entirely misses out. It's actually irrational to hold that a "rational economic actor" wouldn't buy the car on credit because of some abstract equation we've worked out. It's just silly to not take reality into account here. If the repayments are over two years, the choices are to suck up paying the interest, or to wait 2 years to get a car. And two years without a car is not a very rational decision.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 05, 2017, 07:51:10 pm
If the repayments are over two years, the choices are to suck up paying the interest, or to wait 2 years to get a car. And two years without a car is not a very rational decision.
I feel like there are some inconsistent assumptions here - if a person is a rational economic actor, there is no choice to "suck up paying the interest or wait 2 years...without a car".  A rational actor would either intentionally finance because they could get a higher return on their cash than they are paying for the financing (and don't care about being tied to a loan contract) or if they had an incident that wrecked their car they either had it insured or have sufficient savings to cover it.  At the very least, a person (like me) who doesn't like to finance a car will pay themselves car payments over the life of their current vehicle so they can purchase a replacement outright after the planned useful period of the current one.

It sounds like your assumption is a person with no savings who is trying to decide to finance or not, or has previously been able to pay for public transport but would suffer without a car for 2 years for some reason if they didn't finance.  In that limited situation then, yes, financing is a very rational choice.

Otherwise - I'm not sure what I'm missing?  It might be something straightforward, but I admit I can get stuck behind a certain point of view and suffer a bit of tunnel vision.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 08:00:28 pm
Again, Reelya kinda lamplit the whole "simplified academic reasoning -vs- reality" situation.

The vast majority of people live nearly hand to mouth, as a result of widening economic disparity. That circumstance precludes the prospect of a large savings slush fund in most cases.

As such, the "cash strapped person looking for a new car, and suitable financing options" approach to this is the most reasonable, real-world wise.  In terms of sensible economic policy, you are correct-- people should keep personal safety nets in their savings accounts.  Hard to do that when wages do not keep pace with inflation, people are married, and have children with recurring, large costs.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 08:02:54 pm
rational economic actor
insured
hahahahahahahahahahaha
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 08:12:25 pm
Vehicle insurance is a good idea, considering the hazard level of operating a motor vehicle. (it is quite high. Vehicles kill more people than just about anything else.)

Vehicular insurance companies have to use some pretty strange modelling to evaluate risk factors in insured drivers in order to stay profitable, and also stay competitive.  Insurance is by and large, something that really shouldnt be needed (Ideally, people would not drive dangerous death machines, and would not drive like lunatics on cocaine-- and should keep enough personal finances to cover accidents themselves as part of responsible motor vehicle ownership), but due to actual real world circumstances, it is a necessary evil.  Acknowledging that, and keeping a sensible insurance plan, is indeed an action of a rational actor. (the threat is not that you will crash your vehicle, it is that some other asshole will total your vehicle for you, and not have insurance or money to cover damages.)

However, it becomes a defacto tax/government backed industry as soon as the government mandates that people MUST have the insurance, so there is a bit of grey there.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 08:19:06 pm
Let's re-rail that to electric cars vs petrol cars. An electric car has a higher up-front cost but lower costs later on compared to a petrol car. Here's an analysis that puts the break-even point at 8-9 years.
http://www.wisebread.com/how-long-does-it-take-break-even-with-an-electric-car

The car costs an extra $7700 up-front but you save $900 a year on operating costs after that. However several things aren't considered:

- depreciation on the additional $7700 value of the electric car vs of the petrol car
- needing to take out a bigger loan to pay the $7700 means additional interest payments
- more expensive insurance on the expensive vehicle
- or, if you didn't need the loan, opportunity costs of not getting the interest on $7700 in savings for X years (well you'd have recouped half the money in half the time, so 12 years of interest on ~$3800)

So, you'd be realistically looking at a break-even point of around 12 years I'm guessing, and most people won't keep the same car for that long. So it's perfectly rational to keep petrol cars for now.

Front-loading all the costs also carries greater risks because you're basically gambling that nothing goes wrong before the investment pays you back, so any change in your circumstances between now and 12 years from now would be an additional risk in buying a more expensive car to save money then.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 08:24:42 pm
You can offset that mentally by considering the externalities to the environment associated with petrol vehicle use though.  The typical operator of a motor vehicle drops several hundred pounds of carbon into the atmosphere yearly. That toxic waste has real economic impact, which can equate to much larger than the disparity of 8-10 year break-even, vs your proposed 12yr break-even--- especially when EVERYONE decides that operating the petrol powered vehicle is the better option, and suddenly climate change comes home for dinner, and the economy dries up like an egyptian mummy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 08:28:52 pm
Sure, it's a "tragedy of the commons" dilemma. Each person acting in their own sensible economic interests unwittingly hurts each other. If everyone agreed to buy electric cars however, the economics for everyone individually would actually be better off, even though, paradoxically, everyone chose to spend more money.

That's the thing, it's *not* about people making individually silly decisions, it's that each person making sensible decisions for themselves leads to everyone being worse off. And that's why it's an intractable problem. Mischaracterizing this as "people aren't good at making decisions" misses the point of why these things are so hard to solve. Individual education doesn't solve this, because with perfect information, the individual is always better off making the sub-optimal decisions.

Here's another hypothetical:

- you live in a boarding house building with 3 other people. All electric bills are split. You have little interaction with the other tenants.

 If you buy a certain widget it that you put in your room, it costs $3 to run, but saves $4 in electricity. You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3. Should you buy the widget?

Conversely, you can buy another widget, but this one consumes $4 worth of electricity but makes $3 worth of bitcoins. You will make a net profit of $2 per widget by owning it. Should you buy this widget?

Based on rational economic choices, you shouldn't buy the energy-saving widget, but you should buy the energy-wasting widget. In fact, going off purely ratonal economic logic, everyone should in face keep accumulating more and more energy-wasting widgets until the entire house collapses. There's never a point at which buying an individual energy-waster widget will cost you more than it makes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 08:40:21 pm
Yes. 

At the worst possible circumstance, you save 1$/yr over not purchasing the widget. (edit due to changed proposed circumstance: After 4 years, you will have recouped the investment, and you will start saving money. ).

At the best possible circumstance, the other three tenants decide to also purchase the widget, and now you have a sizable reduction in the electrical costs.

If the widget has ancillary functions that would offset the perceived large initial investment (Does it also do some useful function? Especially something that caters to convenience or leisure activity?) then the appeal of the widget will increase, and the desirability of the item will also increase, increasing the chances that your fellow boarders will purchase one.


There is no real circumstance where you are left holding a bag with less money than before (unless you plan to leave the boarding house sometime soon), so the answer is a flat "yes."  You should purchase.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 08:42:08 pm
Yes. 

At the worst possible circumstance, you save 1$ over not purchasing the widget. (who does not like the equivalent of free money?).

At the best possible circumstance, the other three tenants decide to also purchase the widget, and now you have a sizable reduction in the electrical costs.

If the widget has ancillary functions that would offset the perceived large initial investment (Does it also do some useful function? Especially something that caters to convenience or leisure activity?) then the appeal of the widget will increase, and the desirability of the item will also increase, increasing the chances that your fellow boarders will purchase one.


There is no real circumstance where you are left holding a bag with less money than before, so the answer is a flat "yes."  You should purchase.

You missed the point. The widget saves $4 which is split four ways, but you must pay $3 personally to run it. You lose $2 by doing so.

The other widget generates $3 of bitcoins for a cost of $4, which is split. You gain $2 per electric bill period for owning one.

At every point, the optimal individual economic strategy is to minimize the sensible widgets and buy the dumb ones. It's an analogy for how collective stupid still happens even if everyone individually has perfect information and a perfectly rational decision making process.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 08:47:09 pm
You edited your post after I posted. I edited to cover that.

At the worst case, you recoup investment after 4 years. After that, you save 1$/year for having purchased the widget. Since this is your personal property, you can take it with you if you choose to move. So, even if you choose to leave the boarding house before the 4 year break-even point, you can take it with you and then save much more on your utility bill, (though you will be paying more for having left, due to losing the value of the other boarders in splitting the bill, and suffer from that lost efficiency.)

Unless your neighbors buy an anti-widget that consumes MORE power than normal, negating its value, you wont be left holding a negative bag of money for long.

Answer is still yes. Purchase the efficiency widget.

No, do not purchase the bitcoin mining widget. (At the best case, you are defrauding your neighbors, and if they get the bright idea to also buy them, you will be cumulatively (as a group) be losing vastly more money than any one would gain exclusively.  It is a foolish choice to purchase the mining widget.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 08:49:20 pm
I adjusted the second one a little to better match the numbers on the first one, I didn't really change the first one. I said you lose money by running it, but the house as a whole saves money. I can't see how you weren't clear on what I was getting at.

I don't even know what you're talking about now, you haven't got a clue what I'm talking about.

What the fuck do you recoup after 4 years?!? that isn't even connected remotely to anything I wrote. I didn't even specify time periods at all.

Quote
No, do not purchase the bitcoin mining widget. (At the best case, you are defrauding your neighbors, and if they get the bright idea to also buy them, you will be cumulatively (as a group) be losing vastly more money than any one would gain exclusively.  It is a foolish choice to purchase the mining widget.

You're not getting it. This is what real people do. They get the thing that makes them money, but the costs are spread out to everyone else. e.g. cheaper pollution-spewing cars.

The first widget - the one that you spend more or, but saves money, but the savings need to be spread out among other people. People do not pick this option because they have to spend more individually to do it. e.g. electric cars which cost more to run, but they overall save society money on health.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 08:53:07 pm
Humans are actually capable of modeling the decisions of other humans, and can rationally decide not to form an economic suicide pact. Nobody has an incentive to intentionally self-sabotage by causing a predictable tragedy-of-the-commons.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on November 05, 2017, 08:55:27 pm
You have little interaction with the other tenants.
It seems like you guys are being purposefully daft.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 08:56:05 pm
It was meant to be an analogy for society. That's why I put that constraint in.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 08:56:35 pm
Humans are actually capable of modeling the decisions of other humans, and can rationally decide not to form an economic suicide pact. Nobody has an incentive to intentionally self-sabotage by causing a predictable tragedy-of-the-commons.

They do though. e.g. you're breathing everyone else's car smog. It's cheaper for them to spew smog than to drive a non-smog car, but individually, the costs of all the smog cars in fact exceed the benefits per-person of cheaper transport.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 08:58:08 pm
This statement:

Quote
If you buy a certain widget it that you put in your room, it costs $3 to run, but saves $4 in electricity. You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3. Should you buy the widget?

It means that the initial outlay is 3$.  There are 4 tenants, including yourself. You save 1$/year on your electricity bill for having installed it. You will recover your 3$ in just a few years, and after that, you will have net savings. You dont have to talk to your neighbors at all for this outcome. They dont have to know about the widget to have this outcome.  At the worst, after 3 years time, you will be saving money regardless of adoption by your neighbors. This is an inevitable payout for having adopted, assuming utility rates dont change in 3 years.

If your neighbors also adopt (presumably, they have similar circumstances to you, being in the same housing demographic, and the device would independently appeal to them as it does you), then the savings will magnify.  Their utility use will also drop, saving an additional 4$ per additional tenant. At maximal adoption, that will save you 4$/year on the first year, resulting in free money in your pocket, if maximal adoption is reached.

The utility question is weather or not it is OK to wait 3 years before you see a real return.

Again, if the widget has an ancillary function (Is convenient, or improves quality of living), then chances of adoption will increase.


The bitcoin miner on the other hand, simply costs more to operate than it returns. It is an economically poor decision, regardless. Your example tries to beg the question that it is default to consider this appealing.  I see it as a simply inefficient investment, regardless.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 08:58:46 pm
"costs $3 to run" it's right there in the quote you printed. And of course it's the only interpretation that makes sense for a non-trivial thought experiment.

And what ... how are you arguing against what I meant in the first place? If your interpretation was wrong, then you change you're interpretation, not double-down on the wrong interpretation. You're not answering the question I asked if you just make up your own fake interpretation and answer that - you're not addressing the question itself at all.

If someone asks a hypothetical, which you failed to understand completely, it doesn't seem rational to stick to your mistaken interpretation after the person clarified what they were asking.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 09:03:37 pm
4$ -3$ = 1$.

If you divide that by 4 tenents, you save .25$ a year.  You just moved the break even point from 3 years to 12 years. Presumably, the device will still be operable after 12 years, as this is a consumer appliance that sits in a utility closet, and is electrically powered. (Compare, my central air conditioner is more than 20 years old, and sits outside in the wind and rain.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 09:06:22 pm
no it's costs $3 to run, saving $4 for the house. $1 each saved, and you incur an additional $3 cost per time-period. I didn't specify how long a time period was.


It costs "X to run" which means that operating the device costs $3 during the period in which you saved the money. But you have to split the savings 4 ways, leaving you individually out of pocket in each time period. There is no "break even" point. you're not understanding the maths.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 09:06:39 pm
They do though. e.g. you're breathing everyone else's car smog. It's cheaper for them to spew smog than to drive a non-smog car, but individually, the costs of all the smog cars in fact exceed the benefits per-person of cheaper transport.
I'm not, bro, I live in a forest. Maybe you should try living somewhere that isn't Beijing?

Okay, more seriously, most people would simply disagree that the individual cost exceeds the perceived benefit. You don't get to make that decision for other people. If they genuinely felt that the cost exceeded the benefit, they would start to make change, which has happened before and is why LA is currently habitable again.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 09:10:20 pm
What?  No.

Firstly, you are not factoring in that your power use is also divested amongst the tenants. It costs 3$ to operate, but you only pay a fraction of that if the other tenants dont adopt. :P 

Secondly, the device saves more money than it costs to operate. This guarantees a break-even point, regardless of how many ways you slice up the added efficiency. The number of ways you slice it just increases the time it takes to reach that point.

Here, let's work it out.

This device costs 3$ per interval period to operate, and there are 4 tenants, yourself included. So, your cost to operate the device is .75$ per period. The device saves the building 4$ per period, which if we divide the savings among the tenants, gives you a 1.00$ savings. We can subtract our share of the cost (.75 cents) from the net savings (1.00$ each), and save .25$ per period.

Again, I said if the device seems appealing to you, others will also find it appealing.  This is especially true if the device does something other than just sit there and hum in a special way. (Perhaps it makes life more convenient in some way?)  If the value of that convenience exceeds .50$, you break even in value; You are just paying for that ancillary feature.

If more tenants adopt, then the savings increase.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 09:12:55 pm
 Smog reduction in LA isn't because of individual choices sacrificing for the greater good, it's because California as a state enacted stricter emission standards. Government action is a different thing from choices made by individuals.

What?  No.

Firstly, you are not factoring in that your power use is also divested amongst the tenants. It costs 3$ to operate, but you only pay a fraction of that if the other tenants dont adopt. :P 

Secondly, the device saves more money than it costs to operate. This guarantees a break-even point, regardless of how many ways you slice up the added efficiency. The number of ways you slice it just increases the time it takes to reach that point.

I'm not following you here. I specifically stated that the operating costs is exactly $3 per time period. Where are you getting the logic that you only pay a fraction of the cost if the other tenants don't adopt. For each energy-saver widget it costs $3 to run one.

if you have e.g. 10 widgets connected then you'd pay $30 a biling period to have them. It would cut $40 off the power bill. But you only get $10 of that saving yourself. So your e.g. monthly expenses just rose $20. you don't seem to be understanding this, which is very basic Game Theory ala the Prisoner's Dilemma.


When you say 'you only pay a fraction of that if the other tenants don't adopt' you're in fact making up new rules that weren't part of the question. So you're not in fact answering the question.

The point of the numbers is that it's not personally beneficial for any individual to get the energy-saver widgets, however if everyone got the widgets, they'd all be better off. But at any point if you personally got rid of your widgets, then you'd save money for yourself, so cheating is incentivized. This is an analogy for pollution, or really any other phenomena where individual selfish actions cost society as a whole more than what the individual gains.

~~~

And the flipside was the "energy waster widget", which is the exact inverse of the energy saver. This one uses $4 of electricity and generates $3 worth of bitcoins. It's just the inverse of the first type. In this case running one costs you personally an extra $1 in electricity (the other people pay 3/4 of the electric bill), for $3 gained. A $2 per month profit. So getting one would be smart for anyone. In fact, each and every widget you get of this type increases your personal monthly profits by $2 meaning there's never a good reason for anyone in the boarding house not to keep buying more and more of them, if you're all going off purely rational self interested single decisions.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 09:21:18 pm
Smog in LA is also exacerbated by its geography as the area is roughly bowl shaped, so, the smog gets trapped there.

Humans are actually capable of modeling the decisions of other humans, and can rationally decide not to form an economic suicide pact. Nobody has an incentive to intentionally self-sabotage by causing a predictable tragedy-of-the-commons.

And yet corporations do that anyway.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 09:24:38 pm
Let me put the nail in this, OK?

Here are your rules.  YOUR RULES. NOT MINE. YOURS.

Quote
- you live in a boarding house building with 3 other people. All electric bills are split. You have little interaction with the other tenants.

 If you buy a certain widget it that you put in your room, it costs $3 to run, but saves $4 in electricity. You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3. Should you buy the widget?

Conversely, you can buy another widget, but this one consumes $4 worth of electricity but makes $3 worth of bitcoins. You will make a net profit of $2 per widget by owning it. Should you buy this widget?

Based on rational economic choices, you shouldn't buy the energy-saving widget, but you should buy the energy-wasting widget. In fact, going off purely ratonal economic logic, everyone should in face keep accumulating more and more energy-wasting widgets until the entire house collapses. There's never a point at which buying an individual energy-waster widget will cost you more than it makes.

Here are the pertinent bits:

Quote
you live in a boarding house building with 3 other people.

So, there are 4 total people in the house, including yourself.

Quote
All electric bills are split.

THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Quote
costs $3 to run

Taken with the "All bills split", this means our share of the cost is .75$ per period, since .75*4=3

Quote
but saves $4 in electricity.

Since all bills are split, that 4$ in efficiency is also split. Your share is 1$ per period.

1$ > .75$, so there is a break even.


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 09:31:45 pm
Don't bitcoins fluctuate wildly in value? I know it's a thought experiment, but the volatility of the Bitcoin value is going to throw the calculations off. It might be a poor example to use in the thought experiment.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 09:33:05 pm
As long as [CostToMine] > [ValueOfMinedCoin], it is a poor investment, no matter how you slice it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 09:33:31 pm
Let me put the nail in this, OK?

Here are your rules.  YOUR RULES. NOT MINE. YOURS.

Quote
- you live in a boarding house building with 3 other people. All electric bills are split. You have little interaction with the other tenants.

 If you buy a certain widget it that you put in your room, it costs $3 to run, but saves $4 in electricity. You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3. Should you buy the widget?

Conversely, you can buy another widget, but this one consumes $4 worth of electricity but makes $3 worth of bitcoins. You will make a net profit of $2 per widget by owning it. Should you buy this widget?

Based on rational economic choices, you shouldn't buy the energy-saving widget, but you should buy the energy-wasting widget. In fact, going off purely ratonal economic logic, everyone should in face keep accumulating more and more energy-wasting widgets until the entire house collapses. There's never a point at which buying an individual energy-waster widget will cost you more than it makes.

Here are the pertinent bits:

Quote
you live in a boarding house building with 3 other people.

So, there are 4 total people in the house, including yourself.

Quote
All electric bills are split.

THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Quote
costs $3 to run

Taken with the "All bills split", this means our share of the cost is .75$ per period, since .75*4=3

Quote
but saves $4 in electricity.

Since all bills are split, that 4$ in efficiency is also split. Your share is 1$ per period.

1$ > .75$, so there is a break even.

Dude I said that you (i.e. singular you) have to buy the widget and put it in "your room," and that you have "limited interaction with the other tenants". Those two constraints were there for a reason. "Limited interaction" might be a little vague, but clearly getting them to pay money for things that you own in your own personal room is a little against the spirit of writing that you have "limited interaction".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 09:40:11 pm
As long as [CostToMine] > [ValueOfMinedCoin], it is a poor investment, no matter how you slice it.

That's basic economics anyway isn't it? You always want to be able to make a net positive income for whatever you're doing. Unless you're taking a calculated risk or hope that it'll pay off down the line.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 09:41:20 pm
No, you are trying to have it both ways with your counter widget. (You want to spread that cost, even though it too will be in YOUR ROOM.)

The POINT of splitting utility costs, is that the cost per tenant is [total cost of building use] / [number of tenants]

Your argument has no bearing in the calculus as a result. They dont need to know about, see, or even have an inkling of the existence of that device in your room, for it to operate in exactly the way I specified.  Here, I will work out some simplified example for you.


Lets say that without the widget, all tenants each use 100$ in electricity per period.

So, without the widget, the calculus looks like this:

100$ for tenant 1
100$ for tenant 2
100$ for tenant 3
100$ for tenant 4.
------------------------------
400$ building electricity fee
/
4 tenants
-------------------------------
100$ per tenant. 

Now, we increase our costs to 103$, while theirs remains the same.

103$ (US)
100$ Tenant 2
100$ Tenant 3
100$ Tenant 4
------------------------
403$ building costs
-4$ savings from efficiency of widget
-------------------------
399$ building costs
/
4 tenants
--------------------------
99.75$ per tenant.


Unless of course, you are saying this widget does not run on electricity, which by the foundation of the scenario, is fungible.  That is a specific you did NOT specify. The only kind of cost you specified was electrical.  Your scenario is basically asking if it is a good idea to plug in an overunity device. The answer is yes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 09:45:41 pm
I'm not having anything "both ways" you just fail to understand the question. The bills are split, so there's a central electricity.

the item in your room reduces the electricity needed in your room by $4 worth. But ... since bills are equally split, then everyone gets a $1 cut in the energy costs you saved. However, having this item costs $3 per bill period.

It works as a real-world example, actually. e.g. if you buy an energy-saver version of an appliance that costs $30 and would last 10 billing periods, saving $40 worth of electricity, then everyone in the building gets $10 in savings. But since you only bought the item for you to use, nobody is going to pay for a share of it.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 09:47:09 pm
You did NOT specify that the device does not run on electricity, then get all huffy when I point out that if it does (a reasonable conclusion, given all other costs are from electricity), then there certainly is a break even point.

The bit miner, in contrast, DOES run on electricity, and its cost of operation being distributed is fundamental to the calculus.


Either you want it both ways (apples and apples), or you are backpedalling to have it be different (apples and oranges)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 09:47:55 pm
Smog reduction in LA isn't because of individual choices sacrificing for the greater good, it's because California as a state enacted stricter emission standards. Government action is a different thing from choices made by individuals.
Uh huh. Remind me, who makes up the government, again? Who elects them, who runs for office, who writes and signs and mails in the petitions? Is it reptilians? It's reptilians, isn't it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 09:48:47 pm
Except you used an example where you might as well be using the stock market, which isn't nearly as volatile as bitcoins are.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 09:50:39 pm
You did NOT specify that the device does not run on electricity, then get all huffy when I point out that if it does (a reasonable conclusion, given all other costs are from electricity), then there certainly is a break even point.

The bit miner, in contrast, DOES run on electricity, and its cost of operation being distributed is fundamental to the calculus.


Either you want it both ways (apples and apples), or you are backpedalling to have it be different (apples and oranges)

Why did I need to specify any of that. I said the cost of operation was $3 per bill, it's in your room, saves $4 per bill, and the bills are split, while you can't really interact with the other tenants. This is not rocket science dude. All of that information is in the original post.

Let me give a concrete example:

you buy a $30 power-saving light bulb. Light bulbs last for 10 billing periods. It saves $40 in power over it's lifetime. It goes in your room.

Since bills are split 4 ways, each person sees a $10 reduction as a result of your decision to get a nice light bulb, leaving you $20 out of pocket for making the choice.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 09:51:28 pm
If the cost is 3$ in electricity, after explicitly stating that electrical bills are fungible, IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE UNIVERSE, as I DEMONSTRATED!

I LITERALLY SHOWED YOU HOW THE EFFICIENCY GETS SPLIT!!!!


The "value" is a DIFFERENCE on the BUILDING'S ENERGY USE. THAT IS INNATELY FUNGIBLE ON ALL BILLS, PER YOUR OWN RULES!

GAAH@@
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 09:54:02 pm
i understood 'costs 3 to run' and 'consumes 4 in electricity' as talking about the exact same thing, I don't know what you two are arguing over.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 09:54:59 pm
Yeah I don't understand the objections either. It's just net amounts in money.

The "power saving lightbulb" example hopefully gets through to him.

What's he even talking about now, I have no idea at all.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 09:57:04 pm
Let's assume that there is a credit card bill from the device, which dings me the 3$, instead of it being an increase of electrical cost.

Every period, I pay 3$ straight up in licensing.  I get 1$ in reimbursement. I *LOSE* 2$ per period.


If however, the cost is in electrical operating costs, that cost is fungible across the building. I pay .75$ per period, and get reimbursed 1$ per period. I SAVE .25$


It makes all the difference in the universe.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 09:58:23 pm
I didn't ever say that the $3 was off the power bill. it just said it's the cost to the owner of the widget, which is in your room, and you can't interact with the other building tenants. it's the entire point of the question.

now you're basically making up your own constraints, such as saying the $3 cost of the widget can be taken off the power bill. e.g. you're making up your own strawman versions to answer.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 09:59:41 pm
You never specified. You just said

Quote
It costs 3$ per period to run.

You did not specify that it was not electricity, and all other costs were electrical costs.
It's called "Literary context" Reelya.  You really DO need to specify that it is NOT an electrical cost for operating the device.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:00:40 pm
"cost $3 to run" is pretty clear. Which word isn't clear?

The whole point was that it costs $3 to run, but saves $4 in electricity. It's entirely illogical to assume that the $3 is also electricity. the only connection with electricity is that there's electricity also mentioned in the question.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:02:25 pm
I THINK I see the problem... Are we talking about paying an equal fraction (25% in this case), then wouldn't the share be unchanged regardless of how much you save? Because if you save some, that lowers the bill for everybody and changes the amount everybody pays. I doubt the electricity bill is going to be an unchanging flat fee.

Or am I failing the argument?

Edit: three replies, slow to peck type on iPad.....
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 10:02:54 pm
Reelya, you CANNOT be this dense.  You really cannot.  I know better.


.75 * 4 = 3

The cost of operating the device is 3.  That cost still exists, and is still the full 3.  It has (being an electrical cost), been distributed across the pool of tenants, resulting in a cost (to US) of .75 cents.


This is NOT rocket science.  Again, CONTEXT MATTERS.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 10:03:29 pm
That part that wasn't clear was whether that $3 is also distributed among the tenants. I understood that you meant for it not to be, but yes, you really should've specified that, instead of assuming other people would interpret the ambiguity the same way you do. Anyway, the correct rational solution to your problem is "stop sharing your utility bills with assholes".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:04:19 pm
If the overall cost goes down, don't we and everybody else get a savings?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:06:47 pm
go look at my "power saving lightbulb" example for clarification there.

- shared bills split 4 ways
- personal rooms
- you can buy a nice $30 energy-saver light-bulb for your room, that lasts 10 billing periods.
- the $30 bulb saves $4 per bill, or $40 over it's lifetime

The numbers work out identical to the original example. You spent $30 for the bulb, but saved $10 off your own electric bills, over 10 bills. So your net economic position is worse - you made an irrational decision.

Basically, nobody is better off individually if they put one of these bulbs in their own room. But if everyone gets one, everyone is both individually and collectively better off. The point here, is that individual rational decisions don't necessarily add up to collective best outcomes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 10:08:50 pm
If the cost to operate is in the form of increased electrical use in my apartment, and not in some other form, then yes. All tenants will get a reduction in their power bills as a result of our installation of the device. In the originally proposed case, and not the bait and switch above, all tenants save .25$ per period if the bill is an increased electrical cost.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 10:09:21 pm
I really want to stress that it is your own fault that you're not communicating clearly enough, Reelya.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:10:51 pm
Lasting 10 months sounds like a pretty crappy bulb to be honest, unless we're talking about a billing period of one year.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:11:45 pm
There was no bait and switch.

I specified that it was a widget that you put in your room. Your personal room. and that you can't interact with the other tenants.

A widget is a physical object. And I said you have to pay money to run it, but it saves electricity. clearly, the money isn't also electricity because that wouldn't make any sense.

e.g. if I said you could buy 10 apples for $3 would you say that the $3 was also apples?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 10:14:41 pm
A widget is a physical object. And I said you have to pay money to run it, but it saves electricity.
Do you really not get that people are assuming the cost to run it is a utility cost, such as electricity?

Which, frankly, is perfectly sensible since you never specified otherwise and what kind of device have you ever seen that you have to pay money to run directly in your own home? Is this some kind of coin-op generator? Does it turn pennies into electricity?

e.g. if I said you could buy 10 apples for $3 would you say that the $3 was also apples?
. . .
Okay, seriously, are you 12?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:15:03 pm
Which saves electricity for EVERYBODY because it affects the bill that everybody pays a part of.....
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:16:40 pm
A widget is a physical object. And I said you have to pay money to run it, but it saves electricity.
Do you really not get that people are assuming the cost to run it is a utility cost, such as electricity?

Which, frankly, is perfectly sensible since you never specified otherwise and what kind of device have you ever seen that you have to pay money to run directly in your own home? Is this some kind of coin-op generator? Does it turn pennies into electricity?

I think that's what everybody here is assuming, cost in utility, not physical money. 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:17:21 pm
A widget is a physical object. And I said you have to pay money to run it, but it saves electricity.
Do you really not get that people are assuming the cost to run it is a utility cost, such as electricity?

Which, frankly, is perfectly sensible since you never specified otherwise and what kind of device have you ever seen that you have to pay money to run directly in your own home? Is this some kind of coin-op generator? Does it turn pennies into electricity?

I just said "cost to run it". That's just TCO. The fact that I said that you have to own it personally in your room and don't interact with the other tenants implies it's not a shared cost.

But remember that I also followed that up by doing the numbers and showing what the persons personal finances were in the scenario, so I clarified who pays the $3 in the very first post. Only the person who got the widget.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 10:18:31 pm
I just said "cost to run it". That's just TCO. The fact that I said that you have to own it personally in your room and don't interact with the other tenants implies it's not a shared cost.
It only implies that inside your own head, since you never stated as much. Don't assume that other people will interpret the ambiguity the same way you do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:19:25 pm
But I wrote who pays for it in the original post when I showed the maths. So no, the only ambiguity would be if someone ignored most of the post itself. This is what I wrote:

Quote
you live in a boarding house building with 3 other people. All electric bills are split. You have little interaction with the other tenants.

 If you buy a certain widget it that you put in your room, it costs $3 to run, but saves $4 in electricity. You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3. Should you buy the widget?

The reasoning is implicit in that, that the $3 is a personal expense and not taken off the electric bill, because I already specified that the net saving on the bill is $1 per person. So the $3 cannot be off the bill because I already ruled that out when I wrote the example.

It just says that you can put this thing in your room which costs $3 to run, saves $4 in electricity, and saves you $1 off your 1/4 share of the electric bill. It's pretty clear from that that the $3 isn't also taken off the electric bill.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 10:20:55 pm
No, you just blandly said how much it costs to operate, and gave an ambiguous or contradictory condition.

That you assert that we must pay the full 3$ either specifies apples/oranges relationship between costs (making it a false comparison with the bitcoin miner), or it is contradictory to the all electrical bills are distributed rule.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 10:21:02 pm
Communication skills tip #2: Always assume people will ignore half of what you wrote, especially if it involved numbers.

Or, less facetiously, their point was that they considered your math wrong under the interpretation they'd formed, which makes your argument unhelpful.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:22:48 pm
A widget is a physical object. And I said you have to pay money to run it, but it saves electricity.
Do you really not get that people are assuming the cost to run it is a utility cost, such as electricity?

Which, frankly, is perfectly sensible since you never specified otherwise and what kind of device have you ever seen that you have to pay money to run directly in your own home? Is this some kind of coin-op generator? Does it turn pennies into electricity?

I just said "cost to run it". That's just TCO. The fact that I said that you have to own it personally in your room and don't interact with the other tenants implies it's not a shared cost.

But where does the cost come from? Is the cost coming out of the electric bill (which you share with three other ppl) or is it physical money like you're using a credit card or physical money?

If it's physical or credit card, then that means it has absolutely no impact on your electric bill because that implies that its independent and separate from the electricity everybody pays, which mangles the whole thought experiment


Typing on iPad. So.  Slow. 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:27:22 pm
Uh, no I'm not sure how you could draw that conclusion from the original statement. It says that the widget saves $4 worth of electricity, which is off the house's shared electric bill, so $1 per person. All those things were in black and white on the original post, so i'm not sure how you could say they were the ambiguous parts.

The OP states how much the bill was changed by the widget being there, $4. And that if you have one then it costs you $3 to run, personally. (hence, "in your room" and "limited interaction").

Quote
You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3. Should you buy the widget?

$3 is just listed as an abstract cost here, but it's clearly indicated to be separate from what you saved on your share of the electric bill.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 10:30:06 pm
You just said it was A cost. Not what KIND of cost.  All other costs are in terms of metered electrical use, including the costs of operation of the bitcoin miner.

So, either you purposefully created a false comparison (comparing apples and oranges) by asserting that the cost was something OTHER than electrical use fee based- (such as licensing), or you created a condition that is contradictory, should the reader assume that your cost was electrical (given the context of the proposed comparison between offerings)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:31:10 pm
I just said it's money. And it was listed as a separate category from the electric bill. How much simpler does that need to be?

Quote
You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3.

the "but" here is clearly saying the $3 is a separate cost that's not part of the electric bill. And the way it's phrased as a deliberate contrast between "your share of X" and "[you] have spent Y" implies that one is a shared amount and that the other is a personal amount.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 10:35:16 pm
I can "spend" 3$ in any number of ways. The statement does not strictly say that I spent MY OWN 3$, only that I spent 3$.

You are trying to imply too much with your statement. It is, as myself and others have pointed out, not sufficiently clear.

This is especially important in light of the "Spending other people's money inefficiently to get money for myself" basis of the bitcoin miner widget. It operates exactly that way--- spending OTHER peoples money, via the fungibility of the bill.

So, AGAIN, either this is a FALSE COMPARISON (because the two devices' costs operate in WILDLY different ways)--- Or a contradictory statement.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:37:00 pm
Who's $3 would you spend if you make a personal decision to put a thing in your own room, and you don't have much interaction with the other people?

It really doesn't sound like a very sensible objection.

Quote
If you buy a certain widget it that you put in your room, it costs $3 to run

"if you" do X" then it costs "Y".

Which is reasonably clear that the person buying the thing paid the costs. But then I clarified that again:

Quote
You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3.

You, as in the person, saved the $1 and spent the $3. It's fairly clear because it says "you" did it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:37:13 pm
Uh, no I'm not sure how you could draw that conclusion from the original statement. It says that the widget saves $4 worth of electricity, which is off the house's shared electric bill, so $1 per person. All those things were in black and white on the original post, so i'm not sure how you could say they were the ambiguous parts.

The OP states how much the bill was changed by the widget being there, $4. And that if you have one then it costs you $3 to run, personally. (hence, "in your room" and "limited interaction").

Quote
You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3. Should you buy the widget?

$3 is just listed as an abstract cost here, but it's clearly indicated to be separate from what you saved on your share of the electric bill.

Except, as weird says, the Bitcoin producing widget explicitly CONSUMES 4 in electricity, so, therefore, the reader assumes the 'cost to run is electricity. You can't have one be electricity and the other something else because it breaks the thought experiment.

I just said it's money. And it was listed as a separate category from the electric bill. How much simpler does that need to be?

Quote
You will save $1 on your share of the electric bill, but have spent $3.

the "but" here is clearly saying the $3 is a separate cost that's not part of the electric bill.

Okay, fine, money, but the context here is paying an utility bill, so, is the money drain coming from your pocket or the bill

Also, if the three dollar cost is separate from the bill, then how much DOES it cost to run on the electricity?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:38:14 pm
Who's $3 would you spend if you make a personal decision to put a thing in your room, and you don't have interaction with the other people?

What does that have to do with the bill?? It'll matter the first bill, but not the next...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 10:39:42 pm
Who's $3 would you spend if you make a personal decision to put a thing in your room, and you don't have interaction with the other people?

If the device's cost is in the form of electricity?

Everyone else in the building. They dont know that your bill increased, because you dont tell them. They dont know that you installed a widget, because you dont tell them. The landord assessing the fee does not know who's use increased, and he does not care. Everyone pays.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:40:52 pm
Okay, look, if I buy a lightbulb for one dollar, is it going to show up on my bill as an extra dollar? Doubt it, which is the problem with the unspecified cost separate from the utility bill.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:41:22 pm
Who's $3 would you spend if you make a personal decision to put a thing in your room, and you don't have interaction with the other people?

What does that have to do with the bill?? It'll matter the first bill, but not the next...

I stated in the OP that the cost to run the widget was $3. The verb "run" clearly indicates an ongoing cost, instead of a one-off purchasing cost.

I think we're going in circles here. The point is, it was always mentioned as "cost to run" and that you saves $1 per bill, but costs $3.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 10:43:52 pm
Consuming 3$ worth of electricity, exactly satisfies that requirement. It costs 3$ worth of electricity, which costs 3$, to run the device.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:44:13 pm
The cost was mentioned as being separate from the bill however. I mentioned the amount it affected the bill then immediately said "but you spend $3" which implies that the $3 isn't from the electric bill.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:45:41 pm
The cost was mentioned as being separate from the bill however.

And what does that mean exactly? I know it seems arbritrary, but its vital for the math. Also, if 3 dollars isnt the utility cost, then what is it?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:46:17 pm
Personal cost. The cost was linked to the decision in the OP, and it was pretty clear that you had to make that choice yourself.

the maths itself is pretty simple. A device in your room costs you (only you) $3 per bill (could be an e.g. $30 item that lasts 10 bills). it saves $4 in power per bill, the bill is split 4 ways.

You can do the math there, and note that if any one person does this, they will personally be worse off. But if everyone does it, each person will be individually better off, as well as collectively. It's an important fact to understand about human decision making.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 10:47:27 pm
No, you are IMPLYING that, but again, ALL OTHER COSTS ARE IN THE FORM OF METERED USE.

Again, this is ESPECIALLY true, given that the counter-widget operates in this fashion.

The rational thing to think, given the context, is that the device's cost is in the form of metered use, and somehow you are being specially billed, in contradiction of the split bill rule.

Again, we are back to 2 choices.

Either this is a FALSE COMPARISON,

OR

It is a CONTRADICTION.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:47:48 pm
Then whats the personal cost of the bitcoin miner since that isnt mentioned, only the cost on the utility bill.

My logic agrees with weird.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 05, 2017, 10:52:27 pm
I hate to be the one to say this, but all of you deserve this argument.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 10:54:23 pm
lol
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:55:23 pm
-snips and moves down a post-
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 10:55:31 pm
Let me explain the bitcoin mining.

If each "unit" of bitcoin mining costs $4 in power and generates $3 worth of coins, and you are splitting power bills 4 ways then you can do the math on that.

Say i run 1 "unit" of mining. I get $3 worth of coins. Each person loses $1 in additional power costs. So I made a personal profit of $2.

So doing it was a good idea according to rational actor economic theory. Then, everyone does it over and over until we're all mining like mad, because if any one person decreases their own mining, they see a loss of money. Based on point decisions, it's never a good idea to cut the mining.

~~~

BTW what's "magic" about this? I explained how this is a REAL example with the power-saving light bulb example. The math and logic is exactly the same as the original example except that it just says "widget" instead of "light bulb".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 10:58:03 pm
Lemme grab your thought experiment and wrangle it

If you get a widget that has an opportunity cost of 3 and an utility cost of 2

Vs

If you get a widget with an opportunity cost of 10 and a utility cost of 4, but it churns out 3 units of magicmoney for every 4 utility cost?

NOW how does the math work out? Still assuming the same bill pay arrangement as the original.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 11:00:46 pm
What issue exactly do you have with this example:

- shared bills split 4 ways
- personal rooms
- you can buy a nice $30 energy-saver light-bulb for your room, that lasts 10 billing periods.
- the $30 bulb saves $4 per bill, or $40 over it's lifetime

It's the same equation as the original one

And the example with bitcoins is realistic too, you can in fact rip your housemates off by mining bitcoins at a loss in terms of electricity prices.

i'm just pointing out these are not fake examples, they're real examples of how costs are spread out in real world scenarios. Basically, people using too much power because of sharing bills really happens, it's not make-believe. When a bill is shared, your personal incentives to seek saving-behaviours are reduced because the costs to the individual to do that could exceed how much they personally save on the bill, even if the costs of the action are less than the total saving.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 11:03:46 pm
I was trying to make a point regarding the inclusion/exclusion of important data.

I dont have an issue with the example you gave just now, other than the fact that 10 months is a crappy lifespan for a modern lightbulb, or even an LED. Unless the billing period is one year.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 11:06:00 pm
Bills are every 3 months where I live, and Wierd was assuming yearly. That's why I just said billing period.

But it's not really addressing the concept then, if we argue about how long lightbulbs last.

However I still think the thing about the $3 being electricity is weird since the original statement did list that as a separate thing to what happens to the electricity bill.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 05, 2017, 11:08:44 pm
I was assuming monthly for the billing since thats how its set up here, but the timespan of the billing period is irrelevant for the thought experiment.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 11:30:11 pm
It's not important to the point however.

I am annoyed however because wierd didnt get what i meant, which is fair enough. However 've repeatedly and consistently clarified the same thing i meant all along. And wierd is just doubling down on not getting it rather than adressing what i clearly did mean in the first place.

And by clearly, i mean the same thing i pointed out a good dozen times now. Sure first post, not getting it is excusable, my fault for not clarifying enough. But if you say "actually i meant xyz" and people double down on the addressing the erroneous interpretation, based on constantly changing questionable reinterpretations of the first post and ignoring all clatifications, then thats just bring obtuse now.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2017, 11:31:58 pm
Agreed, billing period is only relevant if it is some really long period, and we intend to move, for the purposes of this thought experiment.

However, it is still a false comparison to have a "licensing fee" in item 1, and "subsidized cost" in item 2. 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 05, 2017, 11:43:40 pm
I don't agree with that really.

If all costs and benefits are per unit time then the rational decision doesnt change, however finely or coarsely you slice time. It's not a variable then whatever label you give to the time each billing period represents. That was the reason I initially said "$3 to run" per billing period. It abstracts what a billing period is out of the equation. "Billing period" could be 1 minute or 5 years. It's irrelevant when all costs and gains are defined as being per-time-unit.

And that's why I talk about the "lifetime savings" of a light-bulb when expressing it in terms of the purchase price of the light-bulb. If you're talking about per-month, then the cost of the choice needs to also be expressed per-month, and if you're talking about upfront product price, then the energy savings need to be expressed relative to the lifetime of the product. That's just to ensure that you're comparing apples and apples and that time can be factored out as not relevant to the argument.

And why to that last point? The example with a long-life bulb in your bedroom and shared bills is 100% a real situation that can occur. It's no different to what i meant in the original question mathematically.

The point is: if a cool lightbulb is $30 and saves $40 of power over it's lifespan (which is therefore a time-invariant decision) and bills are shared with even one other person, then there's zero economic incentive for either one person to get one and put it in their room. You spend $30 and get only $20 back. So it fails the "rational choice" test because you chose the option that left you worse off. In fact, it doesn't matter how many light bulbs you replace with better ones: if only you are paying $30 for each of them, while each one saves $40 and the other guy pockets $20 in savings per light bulb replaced, you never in fact "break even" on this deal, no matter if you replace every light bulb in the house by yourself.

This is a classic prisoner's dilemma from Game Theory actually: individual decisions which makes no cost/benefit sense, but if taken by multiple people at once give benefits to everyone. However, even if you get agreement that the lightbulbs should be upgraded, cheaters are still rewarded. e.g. if one person reneges on their share of the upgrades, then they reap more personal benefit than they would by cooperating. It explains part of why people make decisions which look "bad" as a whole: it's because they are actually the optimal personal decision to make, when taken in isolation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 06, 2017, 04:28:53 am
Now that this whole debate is out of the way, let me let you all in on the dark secret.

If you believe that your roommates roughly share your thought process - that is, if all participants are rational and are known to be rational - then the rational thing to do is buy the widget knowing that everyone else also will and everyone will thus save money.

There is a common misconception that Nash equilibria represent the best possible outcomes of a rational actor. This is false. Nash equilibria represent the best possible outcomes of a rational actor surrounded by idiots; a group of rational actors capable of modelling one another's rational decisions can and will do better. And humans are indeed capable of this, which is why tests of the prisoners' dilemma repeatedly find that humans actually cooperate. The "rationality" Reelya defines here is actually profoundly irrational thinking that I've generally noticed is most characteristic of certain types of autistic, who demonstrate it because they do indeed have deficits in abstractly simulating other human minds.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 06, 2017, 05:31:48 am
I don't get where all the arguing and bitching about the problem in this thread came from, the problem as clearly stated seems self-evident to me, unless you jump to conclusions and manufacture parts of the problem which aren't there. And as any GCSE student could tell you, reading the question through carefully to make sure you haven't misinterpreted it is really basic stuff.

I have a box into which I feed $3 a month. In return, this theory box saves the apartment $4 of electricity per month. It is illogical of me to buy this box, because I only make any money from it if all 3 of the other residents also buy and continue to run their boxes, a situation highly unlikely to arise considering how communication in this thought experiment isn't permitted.

Edit: in fact with perfectly self-interested actors intent on maximising their own reward, this situation can't be stable, since it is in the interest of all fourtenants to be the only tenant without a device. (I use self interested instead of rational because I don't actually know what the official economic description of a "rational actor" is.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on November 06, 2017, 10:26:57 am
There is a common misconception that Nash equilibria represent the best possible outcomes of a rational actor. This is false. Nash equilibria represent the best possible outcomes of a rational actor surrounded by idiots; a group of rational actors capable of modelling one another's rational decisions can and will do better.
You've implicitly made a shift from one-time games to games over multiple periods. Applying Reels's (intended) scenario there, you could for example buy an LED once, hope the rest of the house notices the reduced consumption, does the math, and switches to efficient bulbs as well. Part of your strategy however should be a plan for when that does not in fact happen, which should result in you not buying more LEDs either.

I think that Reels was originally considering the scenario as a one-time game, so the solution he gives is indeed correct. For a (n infinitely) repeated game it should come down to something like Grim Trigger (the Nash equilibrium, IIRC) and Tit-for-tat (interestingly not a Nash equilibrium, IIRC - there might be some mathematical weirdness about infinite series going on there).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2017, 12:22:01 pm
Helgoland has a good point however, that if you invest in your own energy-saving devices then the other tenants need to notice that you did. Rational actor theory requires the actors to have complete knowledge of the variables involved. With only partial information you can only optimize your own part of it.

I've lived in boarding houses with shared electric bills, trust me none of the other tenants give a fuck that they are consuming more than the others. This is in fact the normal way people interact with people they aren't friends with. It's about trust. You end up doing things such as locking your plates and cutlery in your room because the other tenants cannot be trusted to let you leave your things in the kitchen. One guy was a constant toilet-paper thief so I ended up with a small carry case in which I kept toilet paper and soap and only brought it into the bathroom on an "as needed" basis. If he only used some toilet paper it wouldn't have been a problem, but I'd put a new roll on at 8am and it would be 100% gone by the time I was home around 3pm. Over and over. I came to believe he was just switching it out with an empty roll. Seriously, we're going to talk about how regular people make good decisions relating to how they live with others in a non-friends situation, when I've had the real lived experience of having a weaponized toilet paper Cold War? (edit: actually come to think of it, there was a similar toilet paper situation in an earlier boarding place too).

This has been my *normal* experience of boarding houses where you don't get to pick and choose who is in the other rooms. And I'm not talking autistic geeks here: this is my experience of boarding houses which had "regular joes" living there. The geeky weirdos I've lived with were all more tuned in to their impact on those around them that the "outgoing jocks".

e.g. weren't we saying before that it was wrong to factor in money you'd get from your job for having a car into the car loan / saving up decisions? Now we're supposed to factor in helping the environment and money that other people will be saving into the "energy saving appliance" question? It seems like having too low a bar on the one question and too high on the other.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 06, 2017, 12:42:41 pm
Maybe a better example would be a shared apartment or dorm house with multiple people? Not completely getting the foundation of the thought experiment. I mean, I get the thought experiment, but don't know what it was in response to. *goes back and reads pages before I jumped in*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2017, 12:52:10 pm
Quote from: me
One thing about the TCO thing or car loans costing more than the up front costs, those aren't necessarily economically irrational or short-sighted choices.

It was in relation to the discussion on what rational choices look like. You see, people were saying that "people don't make rational decisions" because the overall outcomes of those decisions were bad. If that's the case, then "educate the masses" is the simplistic solution to the "bad economic decisions" problem. However, the Prisoner's Dilemma type of thought experiments show that this is flawed thinking. The problem is that individual choices which are optimal given perfect information don't always lead to a global optimal solution.

In fact, it can be quite possible that for each decision the "delta value" of utility for the bad decision is the optimal delta value, thus at every point if you're trying to maximize utility you take that action again. However, paradoxically, each choice adds up to the worst possible outcome for the system as a whole. And this is the reality, more than the "people just aren't educated" scenario. It's not a matter of people not being educated, it's a matter that there are fundamental contradictions / "perverse incentives" in our real-world economic systems.

~~~

the point of the scenario isn't the particulars, drilling down into the specifics is a clear red herring. It's like arguing that the person in Searle's Chinese Room experiment will die before they can respond because the needed book is too large. The objection entirely misses the crux of the matter and takes the debate into a plainly irrelevant direction.

Or it's like being given one of those "two people get on a bus, then at the next stop, 1 person gets off". And then objecting "hold on hold on, is this bus electric or diesel? Is it a schoolbus or a city bus? If it's a school bus then why are there people getting off mid stop? you haven't explained these details and they're IMPORTANT to me understanding the question! Wouldn't they cancel the route if so few people were using it? Asnwer me that ... your stated scenario makes no sense at all".

The point of economic thought experiments / maths word questions isn't to constantly question the specifics of the question, it's to abstract the given word problem into a maths equation, then solve the maths equation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 06, 2017, 12:57:53 pm
Wait, was it an attempt at a 'tragedy of the commons' dilemma? That doesn't work because you can't quantify electricity on the grid, measure, yes, quantify, no. Unless said boardinghouse is off the grid and have a finite amount of energy available from a generator or battery.

If you're on the grid, electricity isn't a finite scarce resource, which is a requirement for the tragedy of the commons dilemma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2017, 12:59:23 pm
You're doing the thing where you don't get the problem because of ridiculous arguments again.

I explained it in concrete terms with the lightbulb analogy. That clearly works and is identical to the original question.

~~~

"quantify electricity" was already factored in because I always expressed it as "$4 worth of electricty". How is that not quantifiable? Where is this coming from? you could express that as KWh if you like but it's irrelevant.

~~~

And you have that completely wrong here too. This isn't even making sense from your part. I covered it in the original argument by presenting the concept of bitcoin mining at the household expense:

e.g. - running 1 "unit" of bitcoin mining is defined as activity that consumes $4 worth of electricity, and generates $3 worth of bitcoins for sale. Now, each person has a personal incentive to increase their share of bitcoin mining. Cost to you is $1 for each unit of mininig that you do, whereas the benefit to you is $3. So when asking whether you should add another unit of mining, you do the math and always get the answers "yes". However, as everyone takes this action, then the household bill keeps rising, thus eating in everyone's budget which IS A FINITE RESOURCE.

How can you argue that this doesn't qualify as a tragedy of the commons? I'm not following that argument.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 06, 2017, 01:05:08 pm
The point is: if a cool lightbulb is $30 and saves $40 of power over it's lifespan (which is therefore a time-invariant decision) and bills are shared with even one other person, then there's zero economic incentive for either one person to get one and put it in their room. You spend $30 and get only $20 back. So it fails the "rational choice" test because you chose the option that left you worse off.

Wow you guys are all on a different time zone / posting schedule than I...

But the above is exactly the point I was making: current technology does have efficiency improvements, but its "buy in" cost is still too high for the average (let alone "rational") individual to chose the "efficient" option.  That is - the individual benefit is less than the individual cost.

We will see a real tipping point when the individual benefit exceeds the individual cost.

Climate change has great fodder for examples here - most people say "so if a coast halfway around the world floods, I have no way of knowing how much that is actually going to increase my costs, so me spending money or giving up luxuries has basically unknown benefit to me."

Put another way - the costs are localized, but the benefit is diffuse... it's like the reverse of when we think of negative externalities where the benefits are localized but the cost is diffuse.  That's a very tough sell to the average person.


EDIT: removed spurious apostrophe
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2017, 01:06:55 pm
I agree with that, the main problem with electric cars currently is that the pay-off point is longer than most people keep the same car, and that if someone is buying a brand new car, then that's more likely to be someone who buys cars more frequently, e.g. people who don't keep the same car for that many years.

People aren't irrational they're just being cautious and discounting pay-off points which are too far in the future based on their needs. Which is in fact an economically prudent attitude: "take the money now not later" in fact has a lower risk profile.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 06, 2017, 01:15:01 pm
Even if you get an electric car or hybrid with a loan, wouldn't the pay off point be cumulative because you're still using an electric car or hybrid? Sure you might not get there with that specific car, but over time and cumulatively you'll get there?

McTraveller has a point with climate change in that you may be aware of someplace flooding halfway around the world, but you wouldn't know precisely how it affects you, until it does affect you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2017, 01:26:13 pm
Even if you get an electric car or hybrid with a loan, wouldn't the pay off point be cumulative because you're still using an electric car or hybrid? Sure you might not get there with that specific car, but over time and cumulatively you'll get there?

McTraveller has a point with climate change in that you may be aware of someplace flooding halfway around the world, but you wouldn't know precisely how it affects you, until it does affect you.

9 years later, I linked an article about it. And that didn't include any math for several other issues:

- opportunity cost on the extra $7700 up-front (interest payments or investment interest)
- depreciation on the car etc
- higher insurance premiums

So you're looking at a true pay-off point around 10-12 years I'm guessing. On top of that, the people in the market for a new car at any point are disproportionately the people who buy cars more often, so they are the ones who won't benefit from a saving 12 years from now.

Also, banking on break-even point 12 years later is economically risky behaviour (what if that model is superceded or obselete and you can't get parts). That needs to come down to less than 5 years so that people who are risk-adverse can reasonably decide to get one.

Your point about "cumulative payoff point" isn't a coherent point. The point is, that if you have choice of Car A or Car B then it needs to have a pay-off point before the point where you are going to replace that car. Depreciation also needs to be factored in, to guess at how much trade-in value it will have. Then you can treat ownership of the car as a single, combined choice over product lifespan for e.g. the car you buy in 2017.

However, when you go to decide again on a new car in 2025, there's no such thing as "cumulative" benefit of having merely owned an electric car previously. There is only whether you saved money, or you did not. And if you sold your electric car and got a new one before the break-even point, you lost money on the deal by definition. That's what "break even point" means.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 06, 2017, 01:44:20 pm
I didn't know what the payoff point was supposed to be on, which would probably explain the incoherency of it, and looking back at it, the post does sound rather confused. Though yeah, electric cars haven't reached the tipping point where just about everybody would be comfortable with the cost/benefit. Not to mention there are things that have to be done like the infrastructure (powerstations and all that) for purely electric cars before they become viable en masse.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2017, 01:48:34 pm
A "break-even point" or "payoff point" is the point in time at which a choice with a higher up-front cost, becomes cost-neutral compared to a choice with a lower up-front cost. After that point, you start saving money. Do you get this part? I feel like i'm spoon-feeding some pretty basic stuff here.

And the problem with "cumulative" effect of switching is that in some few years you will probably get another car and the type of car you get then is another decision point which is unrelated to the type you get now, so you don't in fact gain a long-term advantage beyond the lifespan of any one car.

But ... you did write "electric car" in that context so I'm not sure how you could be confused about what the topic was. Clearly the "break even point of getting an electric car" means "vs getting a petrol car". That isn't something that should need to be pointed out over and over to have a conversation about this stuff. It's fairly basic common sense.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 06, 2017, 01:53:23 pm
A "break-even point" or "payoff point" is the point in time at which a choice with a higher up-front cost, becomes cost-neutral compared to a choice with a lower up-front cost. After that point, you start saving money. Do you get this part? I feel like i'm spoon-feeding some pretty basic stuff here.



I do and did get the concept of payoff point, I just thought maybe it was gas or carbon dioxide or something, I wasn't thinking of payoff/break even as far as car loans. Basically I wasn't thinking of the same payoff point you were, or wasn't really paying attention, which is likely.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 06, 2017, 02:01:13 pm
A "break-even point" or "payoff point" is the point in time at which a choice with a higher up-front cost, becomes cost-neutral compared to a choice with a lower up-front cost. After that point, you start saving money. Do you get this part? I feel like i'm spoon-feeding some pretty basic stuff here.

And the problem with "cumulative" effect of switching is that in some few years you will probably get another car and the type of car you get then is another decision point which is unrelated to the type you get now, so you don't in fact gain a long-term advantage beyond the lifespan of any one car.

But ... you did write "electric car" in that context so I'm not sure how you could be confused about what the topic was. Clearly the "break even point of getting an electric car" means "vs getting a petrol car". That isn't something that should need to be pointed out over and over to have a conversation about this stuff. It's fairly basic common sense.

Not sure where my mix up was then, I'm gonna go with not paying attention, or maybe over analyzing it where it didn't need to be.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2017, 02:17:49 pm
Heh btw I've been playing around with the planck units and have realized that you could in fact make a really neat system where all the base units area really close to US Imperial units, that would do away with a lot of annoying constants.

e.g.

- the planck mass is 2.17647051*10-8 kg. If you multiply that by 2*107 you get 0.435294102 kg. Call that a ppound, it would be 96% of a US pound. The planck mass in that measurement system is then exactly 5.00x10-8 ppounds.

- the planck length is 1.61622938*10-35 metres. Multiply that by 5*1037 and you get 0.323245876 metres, call that a pfoot. 6% different to an imperial foot. Planck length would be exactly 2.00*10-38 pfeet.

- the planck time is 5.3911613*10-44 seconds, multiply that by 2*1043 and you get 1.07823226 seconds. Call that a psecond. The planck time would be exactly 5.00*10-44 pseconds by definition.

So those units are all pretty cool, because they're close enough to imperial units, however they could in fact work like SI units, and all the planck values are expressed as clean powers of 10 with only a factor of 2 or 5 ever needed.

However, the really cool thing is what happens when you express universal constants in these units:

- "c" the speed of light is exactly 109 pfeet / psecond, by definition.

- "G" the gravitational constant is exactly 10-9 pfeet3ppound−1psecond−2.

And so on, for basically all derived physical constants. Becaise most of the physics constants are now nice a clean numbers, multiplying or dividing by them would only involve adding or subtracting exponents, for the most part, making all physics calculations more efficient and more accurate.

So it would be just nice and awesome and give units that are practically-sized for everyday use while also massively simplifying scientific equations and removing rounding errors. Sadly, getting people to switch would probably be impossible. However, the main sticking point is the second, which would become less important in a post-Earth spacefaring future than would accurate computation and scientific education.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 06, 2017, 03:43:08 pm
But then we would not have the joy of being able to design systems that involve slug-feet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 06, 2017, 03:58:17 pm
No, you still get to do that. In fact, you get an extra way to do it. pslug would be a system the same as the slug system, except defining everything based on unit pvalues, instead of unit Imperial values. That's an extra slug system, not less.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on November 07, 2017, 12:56:14 pm
I hate to be the one to say this, but all of you deserve this argument.

Gotta say, that whole argument was a massive and utterly pointless circle of repetition, but this post made reading it worthwhile.  Half tempted to sig it, just for how appropriate it was.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on November 07, 2017, 01:23:03 pm
syv is saying an argument is pointless? Holy crap.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2017, 02:02:07 pm
The whole thing left me pretty baffled actually. I presented one pretty simple example, and had it torn to shreds based on idk what. It certainly wasn't ever challenged on any basis tha had anything to do with what the problem was as intended.

It was repetitive from my point because i was just reiterating the same thing I always said and kept being deliberately mis-interpreted.

I'm not sure what the whole objective was from the other POV at all. However I have one suspicion - and that's because wierd has advanced libertarian ideas a number of times and is totally not ok with collectivist things like welfare. And the tragedy of the commons / prisoner's dilemma examples that I gave show how a collection of individually self-interested actors, at every point making "rational" economic choices (maximizing their own finances) can in fact harm themselves if they don't go for cooperative action i.e. "collectivism". So the existence of these sorts of contradictions in simple economic systems that involve multiple people is in fact a big slap in the face for the idea of "individually rational actors" in a "free market" always leading to the best outcomes for everyone: actually in very simple and fairly realistic systems it can be shown that nobody ends up better off if they all try and get the most for themselves. As soon as you assume even the most basic amount of externalities those free-market theories completely fall over.

That's the only sane reason I can think of for someone strongly wanting to derail the discussion away from considering the actual economic puzzle  that was presented into an argument against non-existing puzzles.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 07, 2017, 02:18:32 pm
And then I jumped in halfway, then my logic started following a similar track as weird, though with different objections. Though I latched onto a different objection than he did and then I tried to figure out what was being argued about and saw the same mathematical contradiction that wierd was seeing, or something.

Joining in halfway without reading where it started didn't help with understanding it, so, I started from the point of not knowing the start of it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2017, 02:22:18 pm
sure that's why I hadn't mentioned you right then, people who jump into a discussing halfway get benefit of the doubt of not knowing the full context and should not be assumed to have any bigger claims that they're making over the specific posts they're making

I've done the same myself (jump into the middle of something - on your Ameripol thread incidentally), and I know how you can be unfairly labeled as supporting some bigger narrative because you join an ongoing discussion and only object to some specific point that was made. If someone jumps in halfway to a long discussion, never assume they've read further than a page or so back. This is a public service announcement to help everyone get along.

That's also the reason I sometimes repeat the original post if this he-said-she-said stuff has gone on too long. After a while people start to paraphrase you so you do need to ground that back in what was actually said.

but to be totally honest that "moh-nee? What is this moh-nee thing you speak of?" stuff is bullshit. this is not rocket science it's third-grade level verbal maths problems. cmon now. If a math problem says something costs $3 a month then only some alien who doesn't know what money is (or what a month is) should have a problem computing the output of the math problem. You don't start going on about how it "doesn't compute" and go "how is the $3 paid?!? Is it by credit card? I don't understand the problem!". That's just deliberately autistic-level bullshit. It's economic theory - how the money leaves your pocket is abstract and has no relevance whatsover to the answer to the question. Suffice to say, you're down $3 - it doesn't make any difference where it went. I hope none of you people are studying to be the next generation of economists.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on November 07, 2017, 03:25:01 pm
I eagerly await the return of Wierd.  Which will win?  Bold shouting, or CAPSLOCK SHOUTING?  The answer, next time on Tech News: Thunderdome Edition!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on November 07, 2017, 03:37:55 pm
I usually imagine Reels as arguing very passionately and raising his right index finger (or hand or whatever) every time a bolded word comes up, while simultaneously sort of going up a bit with his whole body by going on his toes for a second.

If this were a wild west town, he'd definitely be the preacher man. Good one, too.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2017, 03:42:44 pm
Bold is for emphasis, i could use italics if you like, however, I can barely tell things are bolded on Firefox with the darkling background, whereas the italics stands out a lot more. So I have gotten into the habit of using bold for smaller emphasis than italics. Italics has a different shape completely whereas bold only looks a tiny bit brighter. Calling that "shouting" seems excessive since it fact stands out the least of these of all these options for emphasis:

"quotes"
bold
italics
CAPSLOCK

Really there's no dif. between where I've used bold and could have used italics instead. And i don't think bolding a single word in a sentence counts a shouting in context. e.g. where i bold "as intended" or "externalities" in the last page were where you'd normally do something like italics. I mean it would seem weird if you were saying "you're not taking externalities into account" and you interpret the bolding there as a full-bore scream. Spoken language just doesn't flow like that. That's just stressing a single word for emphasis, I never would interpret that to mean shouting. If it was a "screaming" sentence then the flow would put the stresses on words such as "not" and "account".

e.g. "you're not taking externalities into account!". <= now that would be shouting.

The type of emphasis-signifier is, in fact, less important than where the emphasis is applied.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on November 07, 2017, 03:51:26 pm
Huh, I'd use Italics for the same purpose. To each their own I guess.

A propos, and appropriate for the Tech thread: Do you guys know Sartalics? Now that's a useful invention.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on November 07, 2017, 03:56:13 pm
I use a highly strategic mixture of bold, italics, caps, and hitting the other person with a little rubber mallet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on November 07, 2017, 04:57:45 pm
The type of emphasis-signifier is, in fact, less important than where the emphasis is applied.
Hilarious thing is, that's exactly the point I was making!  :D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on November 07, 2017, 05:50:17 pm
Korean scientists succeeded in creating methane from CO2, water and sunlight, using copper and zinc nanoparticles as catalysts.
Even though the efficiency so far is only 1.5%, the process yields 99% pure methane, and takes place under standard pressure and temperature.
Furthermore, the zinc and copper catalysts are cheap easy to produce, and appear stable over time, which was a problem with earlier studies into the production of methane as a solar fuel.
Using atmospheric CO2 in it's production also makes solar methane a CO2-neutral alternative to fossil methane.

Producing methane with sunlight isn't economically viable yet, but when natural gas price rises as global reserves deplete, it might very well be 30 years from now.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/koreanen-toveren-aardgas-uit-co2-en-een-zonnestraal~a4534068/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/koreanen-toveren-aardgas-uit-co2-en-een-zonnestraal~a4534068/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2017, 06:12:30 pm
The type of emphasis-signifier is, in fact, less important than where the emphasis is applied.
Hilarious thing is, that's exactly the point I was making!  :D

Idk where that would be relevant to me though. I see posts by other people that are about 50% capitalization, but I never did anything like that. I looked through quite a few pages right now and the only time that I can find where I did any emphasis on more than literally 1-2 words ever was when what I was bolding was actually either to highlight a direct quotation, emphasized because it was the name of some thing you can google (e.g. i might bold "tragedy of the commons" or "prisoner's dilemma" because I'm too lazy to hyperlink them), or paraphrasing the exact wording someone else had just used*

Wierd was pretty full on with the all-caps stuff maybe you're mixing that up. Not everyone did that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 07, 2017, 06:22:05 pm
Korean scientists succeeded in creating methane from CO2, water and sunlight, using copper and zinc nanoparticles as catalysts.
Even though the efficiency so far is only 1.5%, the process yields 99% pure methane, and takes place under standard pressure and temperature.
Furthermore, the zinc and copper catalysts are cheap easy to produce, and appear stable over time, which was a problem with earlier studies into the production of methane as a solar fuel.
Using atmospheric CO2 in it's production also makes solar methane a CO2-neutral alternative to fossil methane.

Producing methane with sunlight isn't economically viable yet, but when natural gas price rises as global reserves deplete, it might very well be 30 years from now.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/koreanen-toveren-aardgas-uit-co2-en-een-zonnestraal~a4534068/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/koreanen-toveren-aardgas-uit-co2-en-een-zonnestraal~a4534068/)

Only thing though is that methane is many times more potent a greenhouse gas than CO2 is, so, they're going to have to make sure that emissions, leakages and unburned methane of that are minimized as much as possible. Otherwise we're just exchanging one greenhouse gas for an even more powerful one. The fact that they're doing it in a carbon neutral (or carbon negative even) way is great, just have to keep an eye on the emissions.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2017, 06:30:23 pm
Well there are processes for turning methane into other stuff such as ethanol using catalysts so that's what they'll probably focus on. Basically if you can precipitate ethanol out of fresh air then you have a winner.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 07, 2017, 06:36:52 pm
It's entirely possible that the methane produced won't stay in that form for long, just that if a lot of people are using that (as opposed to getting the natural stuff out of the ground), emissions from leakages etc should at least be monitored.

Obviously the CO2 is the far greater danger right now, but methanes greater effectiveness as a greenhouse gas is why those methane clathrates are scary if they start bubbling massively.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2017, 07:12:36 pm
The real issue here would be whether the total labor value of doing this process would be less than just planting more plants to make CO2 into stuff. That's questionable.

We can already make methane from biosources, so if we want to do that I'm pretty sure bio-engineering some microbes might be more efficient than this.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 07, 2017, 07:23:04 pm
Could still have applications for things and places where you can't use biosources. It's really a starting point for others to find applications for and find ways to improve efficiency.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 07, 2017, 07:55:37 pm
The real issue here would be whether the total labor value of doing this process would be less than just planting more plants to make CO2 into stuff. That's questionable.

We can already make methane from biosources, so if we want to do that I'm pretty sure bio-engineering some microbes might be more efficient than this.
Intensively growing microbes is still a fairly energy-hungry method I believe, and of course runs into the "GM is evil!" Bogeyman who would strongly resist the use of these.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on November 07, 2017, 08:03:32 pm
The real issue here would be whether the total labor value of doing this process would be less than just planting more plants to make CO2 into stuff.
Chlorophyll is actually fairly inefficient, and plants produce all sort of crap that is not what you want, i.e. methane. Though I wonder whether it wouldn't be more economic to run a process like this with hydrogen or electricity or whatever, so you can do it in a huge chemical plant instead of spread-out in a field somewhere.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2017, 08:11:13 pm
You've implicitly made a shift from one-time games to games over multiple periods. Applying Reels's (intended) scenario there, you could for example buy an LED once, hope the rest of the house notices the reduced consumption, does the math, and switches to efficient bulbs as well. Part of your strategy however should be a plan for when that does not in fact happen, which should result in you not buying more LEDs either.

I think that Reels was originally considering the scenario as a one-time game, so the solution he gives is indeed correct. For a (n infinitely) repeated game it should come down to something like Grim Trigger (the Nash equilibrium, IIRC) and Tit-for-tat (interestingly not a Nash equilibrium, IIRC - there might be some mathematical weirdness about infinite series going on there).
Nah man, with perfect trust (everyone can model everyone else's choices) you get "buy the widget" in a one-time game, because everyone will buy the widget, knowing that everyone else will also buy the widget, without needing to "notice" whether the others did (because it's implicitly known that they will). This results in convoluted sentences because of the infinite regression of common knowledge, but it still works fine. You only need "a plan for when that does not in fact happen" if it is not in fact common knowledge that the other players are perfectly rational actors, which of course obtains in the real world all the time, but also means that you are not operating within the domain of game-theory rationality. Attempting to apply game theory to real-world situations simply fails all over the place and you'd have to pretty dumb (or Reelya, apparently) to try.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on November 07, 2017, 08:15:50 pm
Nope. If you know the others are going to buy the widgets, you'd be better of not buying one yourself. That's the whole point, really. If you don't believe me, go look up the frickin' prisoners' dilemma on Wikipedia. Buying the widget corresponds to keeping mum, not buying it corresponds to ratting out the other guy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 07, 2017, 08:16:58 pm
The real issue here would be whether the total labor value of doing this process would be less than just planting more plants to make CO2 into stuff. That's questionable.

We can already make methane from biosources, so if we want to do that I'm pretty sure bio-engineering some microbes might be more efficient than this.
Intensively growing microbes is still a fairly energy-hungry method I believe, and of course runs into the "GM is evil!" Bogeyman who would strongly resist the use of these.

You wouldn't need to use genetic modification here. If all you're doing is turning dead plant matter into methane, you can find bacteria which do just that. After all, what do you find in swamps? Dead plant matter and swamp gas (which has methane). Of course though, you'd have to try and cultivate just that bacteria and there might be other byproducts you don't want.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2017, 08:20:49 pm
Nope. If you know the others are going to buy the widgets, you'd be better of not buying one yourself. That's the whole point, really. If you don't believe me, go look up the frickin' prisoners' dilemma on Wikipedia. Buying the widget corresponds to keeping mum, not buying it corresponds to ratting out the other guy.
No, you don't know the others are going to buy the widgets, you just know that everyone will make the same decision, whatever it is, in which case the logical thing for everyone to do is buy the widget. This is a real thing, I'm not making it up, it's just a higher level concept than you'll get on Wikipedia.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 07, 2017, 08:30:08 pm
We were talking around the lunch table today about fantasy tech.

We decided that we really need to start working on advancing our replicator technology, so we can take any matter feedstock (say, carbon) and turn it into something else (say, lithium, or iron, or whatever).  After all, theoretically, you can split any atom into quarks with enough energy, and then just smash them back together in other configurations.

We figure it will probably take politically-unencumbered cheap fusion reactors to do it, but if (super)novae can do it, why can't we!?  (This is the kind of thing that I would love to see our AI overlords establish, actually.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 07, 2017, 08:37:47 pm
That's far future Sci-Fi, I object to calling it fantasy tech.

The thing though is that it takes a hell of a lot of energy to create heavier atoms and we already do it the atomic version of slamming two rocks together in particle accelerators. It'd be a lot easier to just provide the elements in feedstock rather than trying to smash atoms apart and reassemble them with nanomachnes or something.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on November 07, 2017, 08:49:17 pm
We figure it will probably take politically-unencumbered cheap fusion reactors to do it, but if (super)novae can do it, why can't we!? 

Because the least energetic known type of supernova still releases about 247,252,040,818,345,000,000,000 times the energy all of humanity used in 2015 (as a rough average) and exploding stars don't have any shielding requirements.

Obviously.

(A type 1a supernova emits about 1.5*1044 joules. (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1993A&A...270..223K) We used about 6.06×1020 joules in 2015. (https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/ieo/pdf/0484(2017).pdf) )
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2017, 10:47:28 pm
Nope. If you know the others are going to buy the widgets, you'd be better of not buying one yourself. That's the whole point, really. If you don't believe me, go look up the frickin' prisoners' dilemma on Wikipedia. Buying the widget corresponds to keeping mum, not buying it corresponds to ratting out the other guy.
No, you don't know the others are going to buy the widgets, you just know that everyone will make the same decision, whatever it is, in which case the logical thing for everyone to do is buy the widget. This is a real thing, I'm not making it up, it's just a higher level concept than you'll get on Wikipedia.

There's actually a TED talk about something highly related to this that's relevant to the thread. I'd forgotten about it until your post.

There's a scenario, similar to the Trolley Problem. The problem is for self-driving cars. The car can either run over 10 people if it goes on it's current trajectory, or it can kill 1 person. Which should it do? This is just the basic Trolley Problem, then, and almost people immediately say "kill the one person", e.g. they take the utilitarian choice: kill the least amount possible, even if it means taking action that deliberately chooses someone to die. At some point, self-driving cars will be involved in accidents and will have to take hard choices. Applying the "trolley problem" is just a way of thinking about the ethics involved.

however, what if the "one" who must be sacrificed to save other lives is you, the driver, who paid for the car? Suddenly, most people say they will not buy a car that makes that trade-off, even if everyone else agrees to buy one. e.g. if everyone had a utilitarian self-driving car that would in fact kill the driver if that was the way that minimizes total casualties, total road casualties would be objectively the lowest possible. However people don't want the cars that do this. And, objectively when you do the maths, we're all worse off if we don't have the cars that would willingly self-sacrifice if that is the choice that truly minimizes casualties. e.g. every driver is in fact more likely to die, individually if we all choose cars that put "driver first" rather than optimize for complete minimization of road casualties.

if you consider the trade-offs here it's clearly the same problem as the "widgets" example I put up. "Logically" everyone should buy the robot car that's willing to kill it's own driver rather than kill two other drivers. However people seem to balk at this, even if it in fact means their total chance of death is higher: they want everyone else, except not themselves, to have the self-sacrificing "suicidal" cars. This is from surveys the guy doing the Ted talk did btw, people overwhelmingly want other people to get the death cars, because that makes them safer, but they overwhelmingly reject the idea that they themselves should get one.

 And think about it, if everyone is required to have perfectly utilitarian cars, the overall chance of death is minimized. However ... if you cheated by hacking your robot car with the instruction "save me and only me at all costs" your chances of survival would increase compared to everyone else. So it would be the logical thing to do as hacking your car always minimizes your chance of death compared to not hacking your car. However, everyone is in fact optimizing their own chance of survival at the expense of increased death chances across the board. So everyone hacks their cars to be selflish, because that's just "prudent" isn't it? However once all cars are hacked, everyone is in fact less safe.

And this isn't a toy problem either. When you get into a robot car in the future you're damn well going to want to know how they work and what basis for their decisions they make.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 07, 2017, 10:59:13 pm
I've read about that actually, not from a TED talk but elsewhere. It is indeed a variant of the Trolley Problem. The basic situation is that the car has to avoid something (a pedestrian or other killable thing), however, the only solution to avoid the person has a very high chance of death to the driver, so, which should the car choose? As in the Trolley Problem, death is unavoidable.

The only difference is that it's an unthinking computer making that choice and it runs into the problem of 'do we want the computer making the decision?' Since its in the computers hands and not the drivers, it changes the moral dilemma

Obviously the driver might choose to save themselves, but if you think about it, automated cars killing pedestrians would definetly generate backlash and a setback in the development of them.

Edit: Yeah, you summed it up in longer form while I posted.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2017, 11:00:00 pm
Nah, there's some flaws in that. Most importantly, nobody is truly utilitarian. (and for good reason, it's a terrible nonsense philosophy)

But also, you must see that the "run over 10 people / kill the driver" situation is asymmetrical: you can't be run over if you are in a car. If cars will always prefer to run people over than to kill the driver, pedestrians are more likely to die, but drivers are less likely. In principle, you can handwave it away by making it a premise of the thought experiment that everyone is equally likely to be a driver or pedestrian at any given time, but that's the kind of thing that most humans can't easily abstract away, so they'll always answer the question under their everyday prejudices instead of adhering to the rules of the thought experiment correctly.

Still, to expand on what I originally said, the core problem is that "minimising casualties" isn't what people want; most people would genuinely prefer a higher overall risk of death by car accident than to be killed by their own cars. You can't say that one outcome is "logically" the best if you don't understand what people actually value. Also, utilitarianism is for stupids.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2017, 11:07:27 pm
you're pointing out things that aren't actually important points. It could just easily be said as "cause an accident killing two other drivers" as running over people. The only reason it was phrased as "run over 10 people" was because that was how the Trolley Problem from 1967 is phrased: the original dilemma is that the train / Trolley can run over 5 people or just 1 person, but you have to make a conscious decision to kill the one person and not the five. It's just an introductory narrative which introduced the structure of the orginal "trolley problem", but links it to the idea of robot cars, purely because the Trolley Problem is one of the standard thought experiments in the field of Ethics.

So no, the thing about running over pedestrians isn't the point here. It's like complaining that the Trolley Problem is b.s. because you're not a train driver. It's meant to be a starting point for discussing ethical decision-making, not an example to 100% be taken literally.

the point is, should people get robot cars programmed to kill others to save themselves or will we legislate that everyone be forced to buy cars with programming that put community safety as a whole first. Drivers don't seem keen on this part, but it's going to be a big topic in a few years. Who decides?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 07, 2017, 11:10:11 pm
Alternatively, we can separate pedestrian paths from the roads, but it's going to take a very major restructuring of how our cities are designed and laid out for that to work absolutely everywhere. Probably easier to do in a space colony or a newly planned city.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 07, 2017, 11:37:40 pm
Instead of self-driving cars let's replace all of them with the Trolley from the Trolley problem and set it up so that 5 pedestrians are down 1 street, while only 1 is down the other. Then we can have fun always optimizing the Trolley Problem when we commute.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 08, 2017, 03:04:54 am
you're pointing out things that aren't actually important points.
That's the point, most people genuinely cannot just view these thought experiments in a vacuum, because they can't exclude their own experience from colouring their interpretations of the premises, so changing the phrasing can totally change the responses and all of these surveys are futile.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on November 08, 2017, 06:52:20 am
Oh boy, you really live up to your name, don't you?
a starting point [...], not an example to 100% be taken literally
People in this thread appear to have a difficult time understanding this concept.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 08, 2017, 07:12:47 am
People in this thread appear to have a difficult time understanding this concept.
Literally my point
people everywhere have difficulty understanding the concept.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 08, 2017, 07:40:16 am
The trolley problem as applied to autonomous cars is a false problem anyway - it involves a massive failure chain, including at the very least:

* pedestrians in close proximity to where the vehicle may be traveling (which may involve some other "failures" if there weren't supposed to be pedestrians there - for instance, why would pedestrians be on a superhighway or trolley tracks in the first place?)
* A series of faults in the auto-drive system making it drive too fast for the proximity of pedestrians (I say series because this involves failure of GPS AND Inertial guidance in a way where the vehicle doesn't know its location so can't look up a speed limit, AND a failure of its object-recognition software to recognize a high density of mobile entities in close proximity simultaneous with not being able to see/process speed-limit signs)
* A fault in the safety systems, maybe even including the physical braking system, making the vehicle unable to fail to its safe-state, which is not-moving.  This is probably the most ridiculous one... early autonomous cars at least are going to be way more likely to stop when you don't want them to rather than keep moving when they shouldn't.

So in reality there is no "choice" to take an action resulting in N deaths with choice A or M deaths with choice B. Instead, there is really a choice C that is just ignored for sake of making a dilemma where one doesn't really exist.  Or the choice that was made was so far earlier in time (e.g., choice of fail-safe mechanisms) that it's irrelevant to the proximal situation.


(Unrelated Aside: Last night I said 'fantasy tech' and perhaps I should have said 'fantastic tech' instead.  But there is also the old quote about how sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic, so 'fantasy tech' isn't really that far out of reason...)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on November 08, 2017, 09:20:14 am
Well, you do have scenarios like 'tiny child suddenly appearing from among the parked cars on the side of the road'. Does the vehicle swerve into the oncoming traffic on the other lane, or does it run over the kid? There may be time to steer even when there's no time to stop, even if the car is adhering to speed limits.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on November 08, 2017, 09:57:28 am
There's always the awful solution.

Everyone wants to be the one person whose life all self-driving cars are designed to spare at all costs, whether they're in them or not; this is no different from what they want from human-driven cars, but people are more comfortable making impossible demands of robots.

Well, then, why not sell that? (That question is rhetorical.) Auction off avoidance priorities, and just have the cars communicate with each other and with the pedestrians' phones to decide who to hit based on a greedy algorithm that steers them away from the highest-priority individuals in the vicinity.

Yes, it's awful in countless ways. But it makes the automated car executives more money than any other solution I've seen so far, so it's probably going to be the one we end up implementing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on November 08, 2017, 10:04:02 am
Jeez, is this thread gonna go back to normal eventually, or is it gonna keep being a circular debate about game theory?  It may have actually transcended being a circle, there seems to be like three sides to this argument already, despite it being game theory...

Ah well.  Might as well throw my own perspective into the multi-dimensional ring.  Sure, it's almost incoherent that the trolley problem might come up, but it's still useful for political reasons.  If someone is told that the car is "suicidal" (bonus points if they don't get the full explanation for what that means), they'll be less likely to buy it.  Same for if it's "murderous".  Of course, you could just leave the car incapable of weighing the relative value of human lives, but then we will get a self-driving car which plows into a crowd.  Roll the dice enough times, you'll get enough simultaneous failures eventually.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 08, 2017, 11:03:25 am
Yeah, usually bringing up e.g. the Trolley Problem is the starting point for discussing the ethics but however, people here are completely fixated on whether the actual Trolley Problem, exactly as described would occur. Which entirely misses the point and reduces the entire discussion to inanity. There's no traction there to talk about the ethics issues as they affect robot cars when people fixate on the least possible relevant details. If this is always going to be the way when discussions start then it's probably good that we just go back to just posting "wow super tech" articles and stop trying to have an actual thoughtful discussion about the pros and cons of new technology.

Let me sum it up "for dummies"

- There's a thing called "The Trolley Problem" - perhaps you should look this up and read a bit about it and understand why it exists before critiquing parts of it.

- It's a framework for discussing ethics in any situation that involves trade-offs. The details in the 1967 Trolley Problem formulation aren't important, it's just a shared framework so that people aren't starting from zero each time we discuss trade-off situations: there's a huge body of research related to it, and a lot of data about how people feel very differently when you change the formulation even slightly, even when the "math" works out the same. So new situations are often phrased as being variants of the Trolley Problem so that we can make use off 50 years of ethics research rather than going in blind to every new situation, which wouldn't allow us to tap into 50 years of insights and research on the existing framework. That's the value of looking at new problems in terms of how they related to The Trolley Problem, it's not meant to be a claim that e.g. robot cars will have to picking between killing exactly 5 pedestrians vs 1 pedestrian. That's not a relevant detail.

- Robot cars will need to make ethical trade-off. These could involve whether to harm the driver, vs kill pedestrians, whether to kill the driver vs kill two other drivers, or basically any situation where there's some trade off between harm/death/monetary-loss. Basically, the Trolley Problem framework is just a way to abstract some of the details away.

- Fixating on whether the details of the actual 1967 Trolley Problem, exactly as stated for an uncontrollable train hurtling down the tracks where 5 people are lying on the tracks, is just silly, and it misses the opportunity to start an actual sensible and productive discussion about what ethics we should build into robot cars.

- e.g. robot cars are going to make trade-offs. Someone, not the driver will be the person who programs what variables the car should consider when forced to make some trade-off. Should drivers be allowed to buy "selfish" cars that prioritize their own driver's health above other people's lives? Should we regulate it so that people cannot buy "selfish" cars and must buy "community minded" cars that minimize total harm to all people, even if this means a higher chance of death for the driver? Who decides what system of ethics governs robot cars decision-making in those worst-case scenarios where is you-vs-them?

^ those things in the final point are the only important things to talk about here. Mentioning the Trolley Problem at all was something I did because that's how the TED talk on this was structured. It's just a shared point of reference for starting a discussion on the concept of trade-offs in ethics. Saying that pedestrians aren't bunched up like that so it would never happen is entirely going in the wrong tangent.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on November 08, 2017, 11:10:48 am
Other than how it makes the owner feel, how important is the distinction really? If you own such a car you're unlikely to ever see it have to make such a decision because the programming defaults to "make sure nobody dies", and it's pretty damn good at accomplishing that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 08, 2017, 11:15:13 am
Well if there are 50000 auto deaths (USA) a year now, and if fully optimized robot cars would be 90% safer then there will still be 5000 deaths. If, however, everyone decides to buy "me first" robot cars that prioritizes themselves instead of "collectivist" robot cars that work in a network to minimize total road casualties, even if that means one of the robot cars "self sacrificing" then you might only see an 80% reduction instead, which works out at another 5000 preventable deaths (plus injuries and property damage) because people didn't want to buy completely safe as a whole cars just in case their car would decide they were expendable to the system.

I think a system where all cars are designed to be "selfish" for the occupants of the car, and only the occupants, vs one where all cars were designed to be "selfless" and think about all human lives in their decision making process would be clearly delineated futures, and they'd likely have vastly disparate outcomes and issues to deal with. Hell, if the "selfish" cars were in fact talking in a network, how do we know that they'd benefit from talking honestly with the other cars around them. What if your "Chevy me-me-me 3000" decided to send bogus data about it's movements to other nearby-cars in a near-crash situation because it could 'game the system' to maximize the survival chances for just it's owner, at the expense of the other owners? Once you go down the route of "selfish" robot cars being ok then "gaming the system" becomes a thing - e.g. Prisoner's Dilemma and suboptimal outcomes for all because people didn't choose to cooperate if there was a risk that they could be back-stabbed and lose out, so we all assume everyone is a backstaber to be prudent, and we hide information. The problem is that "selfish" cars will need to be built around these sorts of trade-offs, which demonstrably give very different outcomes to utilitarian outcomes.

However, and there's a real point here, people in the future with robot cars might decide that they're ok with higher driving speeds and more tight cornering, less space between cars because that's a trade-off with convenience and safety that they're willing to make. Robot cars would be safer if driven exactly like we drive now, but as safety margins increase people might be willing to push it thus trading-off some safety for convenience. Hell, most people are already ok with the current level of road fatalities so why wouldn't they push things with robot cars even further? So things like a claimed 90% reduction in fatalities might not actually happen if we decide to push things in other ways because we feel safer.

So no, i don't think saying that it's not worth thinking about because robot cars will be too perfect to care is a good argument. It's highly likely to be a flawed assessment.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on November 08, 2017, 11:40:43 am
(Unrelated Aside: Last night I said 'fantasy tech' and perhaps I should have said 'fantastic tech' instead.  But there is also the old quote about how sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic, so 'fantasy tech' isn't really that far out of reason...)

True enough on that.

And yeah, as reelya said, it's less of a moral and logic test than an ethical problem, and any fatalities with robot cars at this early stage is going to generate backlash and setbacks in people trusting the technology.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 08, 2017, 11:52:42 am
Also i think focusing on the pedestrians / trolley-problem specifics misses the point. The vast majority of road deaths are not pedestrians, the vast majority are deaths of other people who are in cars. So no, saying we can trade off car deaths for pedestrians is a red herring there that took the TP too literally.

So the thing is, and this links back to my previous energy thing (which was in fact a metaphor for pollution if you didn't get that):

- people could buy (A) cars that minimize all road deaths
- or people could buy (B) cars that minimize their own chance of death at the expense of everyone else.
- almost all people say they want to buy type (B) cars
- but they almost all agree that everyone should get type (A), just not them
- however they oppose legislation that would make everyone get type (A).
- so everyone will probably buy into type (B) cars programmed to focus on "me-first".

- and anyone who then bought a type (A) car is a schmuck, because you have the lone self-sacrificing car among a bunch of assholes who'll run you into a wall to save themselves.

- however, the paradox is each individual driver is in fact statistically less safe because of their adamant demand that their personal safety be ensured by the specific car they bought. The paradox arises in any situation when we're each trying to push extra costs onto other people rather than minimize total costs to all people. Since we're each pushing additional costs onto each other in order to minimize our share of the costs we all end up paying more.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on November 08, 2017, 12:02:09 pm
More expensive cars override less expensive cars.
Capitalism wins forever.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on November 08, 2017, 01:26:51 pm
There's always the awful solution.

Everyone wants to be the one person whose life all self-driving cars are designed to spare at all costs, whether they're in them or not; this is no different from what they want from human-driven cars, but people are more comfortable making impossible demands of robots.

Well, then, why not sell that? (That question is rhetorical.) Auction off avoidance priorities, and just have the cars communicate with each other and with the pedestrians' phones to decide who to hit based on a greedy algorithm that steers them away from the highest-priority individuals in the vicinity.

Yes, it's awful in countless ways. But it makes the automated car executives more money than any other solution I've seen so far, so it's probably going to be the one we end up implementing.

With any luck that idea would be immediately struck down in courts. This is essentially a "pay-to-not-die" scenario; it violates basic human rights. Yes, it's true we generally have to pay for food, shelter, and other basic necessities, but if we are unable to do so, our rights state that we are provided them nonetheless. If we are unable to pay to not die, we are (usually) assured we won't die anyway. This whole idea circumvents that; what if you're on a minimum wage salary, have to support your family, and thus aren't able to pay for this service? Your chance of death compared to those around you has increased, perhaps greatly.

The reasoning of this idea is like that behind an anarcho-capitalist society. We haven't degraded to that point yet, fortunately, so we won't be seeing it anytime soon.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 08, 2017, 02:08:47 pm
There's always the awful solution.

Everyone wants to be the one person whose life all self-driving cars are designed to spare at all costs, whether they're in them or not; this is no different from what they want from human-driven cars, but people are more comfortable making impossible demands of robots.

Well, then, why not sell that? (That question is rhetorical.) Auction off avoidance priorities, and just have the cars communicate with each other and with the pedestrians' phones to decide who to hit based on a greedy algorithm that steers them away from the highest-priority individuals in the vicinity.

Yes, it's awful in countless ways. But it makes the automated car executives more money than any other solution I've seen so far, so it's probably going to be the one we end up implementing.

you're probably right about that actually, I'd sort of missed this post before, it ties into what I've written too. Some ways this trade-off could be monetized include building it into your insurance premiums. e.g. if you get a "greedy" algorithm such as "steeravoid 3000" which always maximizes your chance of life at the expense of others, then the insurance companies are going to start taking note of which algorithm you've chosen to implement. And then they're going to gouge you on third-party insurance. It would basically be similar for all forms of damage and potential medical expenses, the people who can afford the least will end up with AI algorithms that minimize potential costs for all insured road-users, whereas the rich won't care - they'll happily pay extra insurance to be covered for having an AI that is willing to sacrifice others for their own safety. But it won't be phrased as "willing to run down a woman with a baby, if it protects the car occupant", it will be phrased as "maximize safety at all costs". This AI you bought that "maximizes safety at all costs" might then even make some terrible decisions that the real driver wouldn't have - like running over 20 school children instead of increasing risk for the car occupants.

Car AI is going to be important in cases such as accident forensics, so I imagine a TON of laws are going to be passed so that the choice of AI you have is something you need to tell people about. It's not like linux vs windows on your PC - if you change the code on a life or death machine that can kill other people, the government and insurance agencies will want that information, and they'll legislate to get it. e.g. if they find out you changed your self-driving algorithm to a "greedy" algorithm to avoid damage, and it smashed someone else up, good luck with insurance payouts/premiums. And with full computer logs from both robot cars, if you ran someone off the road to protect yourself, they're going to notice that and make you pay for it.

So there should evolve an eco-system around this where car-makers, AI designers and insurance companies, police and government all play off each other here.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on November 08, 2017, 02:10:01 pm
With any luck that idea would be immediately struck down in courts. This is essentially a "pay-to-not-die" scenario; it violates basic human rights. Yes, it's true we generally have to pay for food, shelter, and other basic necessities, but if we are unable to do so, our rights state that we are provided them nonetheless.
Risks are different from necessities. Living in a well-funded, low-crime area isn't a right, even though it affects your chances of dying. Death panels!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on November 08, 2017, 02:23:44 pm
Quote from: Ree
So new situations are often phrased as being variants of the Trolley Problem so that we can make use off 50 years of ethics research rather than going in blind to every new situation, which wouldn't allow us to tap into 50 years of insights and research on the existing framework.

It's cute that you think the other people here care to actually educate themselves on the subject.  Yeah, there's plenty of information out there, but you don't need that information to form an opinion and then defend it to the death.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 08, 2017, 02:32:59 pm
Nah, I wasn't expecting them to do that, just pointing out how the specifics that are being discussed were in fact from a 50-year-old academic thought experiment. The TP is analogous to a lot of real-world decisions, but it's a clear mistake to start applying it literally to every new situation, as if every new ethical situation was only analogous to the TP if it involved 5 pedestrians being run over. If we go that route, then something that's supposed to be a tool that lets us abstract ethical problems and decide if they're really comparable or not, gets reduced to discussing inane details instead.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on November 08, 2017, 02:44:36 pm
Yeah, there's plenty of information out there, but you don't need that information to form an opinion and then defend it to the death.

Can I sig this?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 08, 2017, 03:15:05 pm
Can I sig this?

Sigged!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on November 08, 2017, 03:19:12 pm
Can I sig this?

Sigged!

You sigged him asking if he can sig someone else's post?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on November 08, 2017, 03:26:03 pm
No, Sheb, I refuse to be sigged yet again.  I think there's three people running around with me in their sigs, I don't think I could take the stress of a fourth.  My skin crawls just imagining it...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on November 08, 2017, 06:50:57 pm
No, Sheb, I refuse to be sigged yet again.  I think there's three people running around with me in their sigs, I don't think I could take the stress of a fourth.  My skin crawls just imagining it...
sigged
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on November 09, 2017, 05:30:56 pm
AI learning cuts down render time from dozens of hours to minutes. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wt-9fjPDjQ&feature=youtu.be)

Doubtful if they'll ever release it for wider use since the commercial application is pretty damn huge in terms of time saved but it's still a damn cool thing to see happen.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 09, 2017, 07:55:33 pm
AI learning cuts down render time from dozens of hours to minutes. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wt-9fjPDjQ&feature=youtu.be)

Doubtful if they'll ever release it for wider use since the commercial application is pretty damn huge in terms of time saved but it's still a damn cool thing to see happen.
Ersatz clouds!  Awesome!

It's actually... interesting.  I wonder if it could somehow apply to all those discussions about people wondering about the computational power required to "compute" the universe. I've heard some people hand-wave it as "the universe isn't computed, it just evolves" but perhaps something like this AI stuff applies.  For instance, if all you had was the output of the ANN-produced clouds, would you come up with the physics behind cloud scattering?  Or does it only work the other way - where you have to already know how a cloud works to make a neural network that can make things that look like clouds, but aren't really clouds.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on November 09, 2017, 08:12:04 pm

It's actually... interesting.  I wonder if it could somehow apply to all those discussions about people wondering about the computational power required to "compute" the universe. I've heard some people hand-wave it as "the universe isn't computed, it just evolves" but perhaps something like this AI stuff applies.  For instance, if all you had was the output of the ANN-produced clouds, would you come up with the physics behind cloud scattering?  Or does it only work the other way - where you have to already know how a cloud works to make a neural network that can make things that look like clouds, but aren't really clouds.

In brief (and knowing full well that I'm opening myself to being barraged by a million poorly written gee-whiz-robots articles from Wired or wherever), neural networks are excellent classifiers in part because they're efficient at pruning down huge state spaces in ways that aren't immediately apparent to human programmers -- which also means that it's not necessarily possible to learn anything transferable from the final network topology. You don't need to know how a cloud works, but you do need to know how to write code that can stochastically produce clouds.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 10, 2017, 09:39:29 pm
Well we're not actually pushing the limits with neural network topologies, are we? So you'd expect to have limited outcomes.

Pretty much everyone even "deep learning" people are in fact just using one-way signal processing which feeds one layer into the next, until it reaches an "output" layer. And then you have some "training" process that alters the weights, but this "training" process is applied external to the network itself. We haven't in fact worked out how to create a "learning" system which is itself part of the normal operation of a neural network.

Consider that real-life neural networks don't even have "layers" and that they have loopbacks, memory and a concept of signals flowing through the network over time, plus they are truly self-teaching: there is no need for a training harness which is outside the network. None of those things are true of the current "deep learning" stuff.

Right now the emphasis is just on adding more layers, more processing power, more training data to get the most out of our one-way layered networks. "deep learning" is just a buzzword that means they have more layers, thus they need more processing power. The network topology isn't actually any less simplistic. There's nothing "deep" in terms of "more complex networking" going on. At some point that's clearly going to come up against some sort of wall where merely adding more processing power and bigger training sets isn't cost-effective vs coming up with smarter topologies.

The types of neural networks we have now are equivalent to having a pocket calculator and not knowing how to use any buttons except "+", "-", "=" then blaming the calculator when it's difficult to calculate a multiplication or division. We're just not exploring a whole lot of the design-space of neural networks at all.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on November 11, 2017, 02:11:57 am
Well we're not actually pushing the limits with neural network topologies, are we? So you'd expect to have limited outcomes.

Pretty much everyone even "deep learning" people are in fact just using one-way signal processing which feeds one layer into the next, until it reaches an "output" layer. And then you have some "training" process that alters the weights, but this "training" process is applied external to the network itself. We haven't in fact worked out how to create a "learning" system which is itself part of the normal operation of a neural network.

Consider that real-life neural networks don't even have "layers" and that they have loopbacks, memory and a concept of signals flowing through the network over time, plus they are truly self-teaching: there is no need for a training harness which is outside the network. None of those things are true of the current "deep learning" stuff.

Right now the emphasis is just on adding more layers, more processing power, more training data to get the most out of our one-way layered networks. "deep learning" is just a buzzword that means they have more layers, thus they need more processing power. The network topology isn't actually any less simplistic. There's nothing "deep" in terms of "more complex networking" going on. At some point that's clearly going to come up against some sort of wall where merely adding more processing power and bigger training sets isn't cost-effective vs coming up with smarter topologies.

The types of neural networks we have now are equivalent to having a pocket calculator and not knowing how to use any buttons except "+", "-", "=" then blaming the calculator when it's difficult to calculate a multiplication or division. We're just not exploring a whole lot of the design-space of neural networks at all.

It really, really isn't as simple as you say. For one thing, there are many variations of neural networks. For example, you can build a neural network that takes as input the previous character and outputs the next character. You can then feed it a bunch of text to train it -- due to its design, instead of learning about the text as a whole (which might be very difficult to analyze), it'll learn which combinations of characters are common (so if it sees a 'q', it'll "know" that the next character is more likely to be an 'u' than a 'z'.) This is the mechanism behind Cleverbot and other such chatbots. If Cleverbot was implemented with a neural network that takes the text as a whole instead of word by word it would make much less sense.

If deep learning was as simple as linking up more and more layers as you describe, research in the area would be much more dormant.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 11, 2017, 09:14:23 am
I don't think you get what I'm talking about in regards to network topology btw.

How do you actually think neural networks operate btw? do you know about network topology?

"cleverbot" is not a neural network - it's just a plain old keyword search thingy that spits out pre-written replies, and the usual way you do what you're talking about with letter frequency is called a Markov Chain. Neither of those have anything to do with neural networks. So those examples are no good as examples.

The thing is exactly what I was talking about - neural networks refer to a specific technology. not cleverbot and markov chains. Those aren't even done with neural networks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning#Deep_neural_networks

Quote
A deep neural network (DNN) is an ANN with multiple hidden layers between the input and output layers.[10][2] Similar to shallow ANNs, DNNs can model complex non-linear relationships.

That's it - that's the entire definition of "deep learning". Traditional neural networks only had one layer of "processing" nodes in them. "Deep Learning" is all about working out how to work with multiple layer networks. They're still entirely one-way signal processing things and they are dependent on "outside" code to do the actual learning. The "learning" part isn't actually part of the network itself, any more than it was for the one-hidden-layer networks. They don't have memory, state, nor do they have any feedback loops inside the network. Nobody knows how to design networks with those yet - e.g. nobody knows how to make a "living" network in which signals propagate around and it has memory and state.

That's why I'm saying it's become a "buzz word" that people think is "a magic box" when in fact the topologies aren't any more complex than before, they've just thrown more layers in, added more cells, and pour more "big data" into the same old traditional dumb network designs, purely because we have more processing power and it's cheaper to scale up a stupid network than to design a clever one.

Back to your example with letter-inputs. you could use a neural network to learn a mapping from one letter to the next, however the network, even a "deep learning" one has no state - it has no such thing as memory. So it cannot say "oh the last letter fed to me was a Q and this one is a U" and react differently because of that. All it knows is that it was hard-wired to respond to "Q" with one output and "U" with a different output. So no, you can't in fact get a meaningful word-processing NN by feeding it a single letter at a time. All you could teach that network is that "T is followed by H" but it will always follow T with H if you teach it that. The Neural Network doesn't have state and it cannot remember what order it was taught the sequence, so it has no information about that whatsoever. If you want a neural network to do something more advanced that simply spit out "H" every time it sees "T" then you need to hand-design it to do exactly what you ask, and it will almost certainly not be able to do any more than what you explicitly design it to do. You seem to view NNs as a "magic box" that you feed a stream of letters to and it somehow makes sense of them. It just don't work like that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on November 11, 2017, 12:08:33 pm
Oh. I could've sworn that was the algorithm behind Cleverbot...

But I do think you misunderstood me as well. I wasn't talking about something with state; I was talking about something which takes as input the previous character/word in the sequence and outputs a prediction of the next one. You would feed it some text by inputting each character of the text into it separately, and then adjusting the weights by comparing its prediction and the actual next character. So if you have the word "the," you would first input the "t", get a "z", adjust the weights so it's more likely to output an "h", then feed it the "h", adjust it so it's more likely to output an "e", etc. If you want to use this neural network to generate text after it's been trained, then you would simply give it a first character, and then repeatedly use it on the last character it outputted to generate a new character, until you have a string of the desired length. It's the principle behind many random text generators out there.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: alway on November 11, 2017, 03:27:03 pm
The name for stateful, looped neural networks used for that sort of task is Recurrent Neural Network (RNN). Which do in fact have state and temporal loops. This is pretty much the most widely known, accessible explanation of those: https://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/ "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Recurrent Neural Networks"
Which also mentions ongoing problem explorations in related topics towards the end, and stuff like LSTM memory models.

Likewise, much of the actual progress in deep learning has been through such network specialization. Convolutional Neural Networks have been extremely successful in image related tasks, as the topology of the network is designed around spacial invariance combined with hierarchical composition of features.

"Deep Learning" is of course a highly effective but ultimately very nondescriptive marketing term. But the actual research into making Deep Learning effective in actual application does very much work on adapting the network topologies to the problem in question. It's precisely that sort of research which has lead to recent successes and makes the difference between 'works after a day of training' and 'it would be faster to seed a planet with amino acids and ask them to solve it after they evolve to intelligence.'
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 11, 2017, 08:06:37 pm
Oh. I could've sworn that was the algorithm behind Cleverbot...

But I do think you misunderstood me as well. I wasn't talking about something with state; I was talking about something which takes as input the previous character/word in the sequence and outputs a prediction of the next one. You would feed it some text by inputting each character of the text into it separately, and then adjusting the weights by comparing its prediction and the actual next character. So if you have the word "the," you would first input the "t", get a "z", adjust the weights so it's more likely to output an "h", then feed it the "h", adjust it so it's more likely to output an "e", etc. If you want to use this neural network to generate text after it's been trained, then you would simply give it a first character, and then repeatedly use it on the last character it outputted to generate a new character, until you have a string of the desired length. It's the principle behind many random text generators out there.

The problem is that your example is fundamentally broken: you're not taking into account that the learning algorithm for a stateless NN does not know what order it was trained for the inputs, that is information that you have but the NN does not. You're only making some assumption that if you put the inputs in, in the "right" order then the NN must learn something about that order. It doesn't work like that. Training data is in input/output pairs and the machine learns only a mapping from one set to the other. You can randomize the order of inputs and get identical results, which proves that the "order" the training data occured in wasn't actually represented in your schema.

e.g. if you teach it the word "THE", and teach it that "T" is followed by "H" that's all well and good, but what happens when "T" occurs in different words? You've hard-wired the thing to write "THE" but if you teach it "TAKE" and "TO" then that overwrites the original training for the letter "T". So you might say "but those T's were in a different context ..." however that's the problem. You're only training it on pairs such as "T is followed by H". It doesn't actually have any other context other than what you build into the training pairs.

~~~

And you'll find that almost all random text generators actually use Markov Chains and not Neural Networks, because Markov Chains actually conserve all the pattern information rather than overwriting it like a neural network does. Basically ... I'm assuming here that you're just entirely confused about the terminology and you've actually read about how Markov chains work. They're not anything to do with Neural Networks at all, and they are in fact the go-to method for random text generation.

Markov chains can work per letter - but good results are when you give it three letters and ask it give you the next letter based on probability. Probability is the reason people use Markov chains chains here and not neural networks. NNs learn "input A always gives input B" whereas Markov Chains work on "30% of the time T leads to H, 55% of the time T leads to O ..." and so on, which is information that your one-letter-at-a-time Neural Network isn't guaranteed to preserve.

However, even the three-letter-ahead Markov chains just produce gibberish. The real benefits are when the "units" are whole words, then you basically make a statistical table of word predictions looking three-words ahead, and you start to get believable text. A neural network being fed one letter at a time is not capable of producing anything like that, and neural networks have continuous "analogue" style input/output.

e.g. for the "letters" thing the best method for an Neural Network would be to have 26 separate inputs - one for each letter of the alphabet and 26 separate outputs - also one per letter. You'd then teach to output a value of 1.00 on the "H" output whenever the "T" input has a value of 1.0. However, for this method teaching it even "TH is followed by E" would need 676 inputs (26*26) ... which is already getting intractable for a problem that's trivially solvable with a Markov Chain.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 11, 2017, 09:33:16 pm
Except you can use neural networks to generate text where context plays an important role. (https://twitter.com/RoboRosewater/status/928335813963800576) And I'd like to mention that this one was trained one word at a time, using cards translated into text files. Before anyone mentions anything, the twitter account has cards from a good RNN, okay RNN and bad RNN, which is why some are more gibberish than others Like Alway pointed out right above your post, Recurrent Neural Networks exist and solve many of the problems you're talking about. Unlike forward feed neural networks their topography forms loops which means that the additional feedback allows it to store information about the current state and so on so forth.

Also, I'm pretty sure that most text generators use Markov Chains because they're easier to impliment and test. The problem with them is that they're inherently stateless by definition, which is to say that they don't retain context. That's why they generate gibberish in the three-letter ahead chain and ramble in the three-words ahead chain. The only context they have comes from the current state they're working with. Three words contain more context than three letters do, but even that isn't good enough to generate long stretches of believable text or something with large amounts of context like a M:tG card. T might have a 30% chance of being followed by H in all cases of T, but if the T immediately comes after 'bandwid' then the chances of it being followed by H shoots up considerably. And that's information that a Markov Chain can't consider without greatly increasing the size of the current state and thus the memory and calculations needed to form the Chain.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on November 11, 2017, 10:34:13 pm
T might have a 30% chance of being followed by H in all cases of T, but if the T immediately comes after 'bandwid' then the chances of it being followed by H shoots up considerably. And that's information that a Markov Chain can't consider without greatly increasing the size of the current state and thus the memory and calculations needed to form the Chain.

That's not strictly true; it's possible to build an HMM with transition states separate from symbol emission states, as is normally done when using the Viterbi algorithm for sequence analysis, and in so doing offload some of the state memory to the topology of the graph by making sets of states position-specific.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 11, 2017, 10:49:11 pm
Isn't that just going to increase the size/memory-requirements of the graph though? Especially if you're considering language and the like? I was trying to mention that at the end of that paragraph. This subject is hardly my area of expertise so I apologize for not being clearer or simply talking out of my ass. I just can't imagine a way of constructing a Markov Chain to sensibly generate highly context-specific data, like with language, without structuring it such that each state is so large in terms of data/input/whatever that it defeats the purpose of using a Markov Chain. It's not really meant to be applied in those situations.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on November 11, 2017, 11:15:47 pm
Isn't that just going to increase the size/memory-requirements of the graph though? Especially if you're considering language and the like? I was trying to mention that at the end of that paragraph. This subject is hardly my area of expertise so I apologize for not being clearer or simply talking out of my ass. I just can't imagine a way of constructing a Markov Chain to sensibly generate highly context-specific data, like with language, without structuring it such that each state is so large in terms of data/input/whatever that it defeats the purpose of using a Markov Chain. It's not really meant to be applied in those situations.

Oh, it does, but you can see how, if you want to run many trajectories, it's more efficient to load one big graph once and run a bunch of tiny states running through it rather than the other way around.

One of the strengths of Markov chains is precisely what DNNs don't do: they're a way to build a graph such that subsets of transition probabilities remain meaningful regardless of scale, so you can extract useful information from the trellis directly. That can be used to detect parts of the graph in need of reweighting, especially since Viterbi can work on a section of the graph at a time; it can also be used to look at some random sequence and quantify how much it looks like the training set and in what ways.

You are right, though: generating symbol strings isn't what Markov chains are good at. The particular strengths of the Markov tool set are analytical, even though you could theoretically stochastically traverse the graph and get strings out. They're a fine way to sort through generated strings, though, and assign them a probability of being equivalent to the set the model was built from, which can help weed out things like "bandwidh" from "bandwidth."

So instead of using the HMM to generate text, you can generate random text and then filter it -- and in a way that breaks down why a given string scores how it does, symbol by symbol.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 11, 2017, 11:32:00 pm
Thanks, Trekkin. I found that all really interesting and helpful. I don't have any more to add though. Again. Not really my field of study. Doesn't make it any less neat though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 13, 2017, 07:01:43 pm
1000 article on cyber warfare? you need specialized search engines. Google Scholar is probably the best bet:

https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=cyberwarfare&btnG=&oq=cyberw

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on November 16, 2017, 04:55:40 pm
PARKOUR! (https://youtu.be/fRj34o4hN4I)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on November 16, 2017, 05:05:30 pm
PARKOUR! (https://youtu.be/fRj34o4hN4I)
Yeah, Atlas is the most representative example of the cutting edge of bipedal robot engineering, and has been for a while.

It's almost scary. Not so long ago getting robots to walk up stairs without falling immediately was the Next Big Thing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 17, 2017, 06:33:57 pm
It seems Silicon Valley start-ups are claiming to have invented a radical new form of how to manage your life.

It's called "co"-"living".

Let me break that down for you because it's such a radical concept that most of us have no way to parse this concept. "Living" is where you live, i.e. in a house or apartment. "Co" is doing it with someone else. So you put that together and you have "co-living" - it means that you live in a house and someone else does too. Or at least it should mean that. Read on to reveal the slightly creepy Orwellian tones behind that simple sounding thing.

It's apparently the latest buzzword in Silicon Valley. There are at least three different Silicon Valley start-ups based on the term.

http://www.businessinsider.com/coliving-startup-hubhaus-silicon-valley-mansions-2017-6/?r=AU&IR=T

"HubHaus" sounds good on paper. Actually no it doesn't. Instead of being just a "connect" social app for finding co-renters, e.g. similar to Uber, you pay rent to HubHaus for just your room . HubHaus become your rental overlords, and you lose all control over who you share with. Seriously, who wants coporate rental overlords? They're trying to sell this as a cool and innovative thing, hence neologisms like "co-living" instead of "glorified boarding house". Imagine if everyone moved into these sorts of things and Google or Facebook bought them up?

https://qz.com/990247/co-living-startups-like-welive-and-common-are-selling-millennials-the-hippie-dream-minus-the-hard-work-and-revolution/

And this other one charges you $2000 a month to live in a house with ... 10 people that you have no say in. Fucking great. It's got mini bar fridges like a hotel and shit and maids etc. Great, they've invented up-market hotels for young professionals.

Quote
Much of the language these start-ups use to describe themselves is ripe for parody. Krash calls itself a “particle accelerator for people.” A company called Ollie is developing North America’s largest co-living development in Long Island City, Queens, and has created an app called Bedvetter to match roommates. Yes, they named it that on purpose.

Shit man, these two companies weren't in the intro. There are at least 5 such Silicon Valley companies trying to define "co-living" to mean living in a sterile corporate managed room in a big company-owned share house. Man, if this takes off in Silicon Valley then gets rolled out for the rest of us, it won't be so "up market", it would be more like "WalMart Micro-Apartment Complex - coming soon to a deserted stretch of highway near you - right next to WalMart".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on November 17, 2017, 07:05:06 pm
How does "particle accelerator for people" even remotely make sense? Is it because "co-living" is supposed to accelerate your productivity or something? I'm in confusion here.

But honestly Silicon Valley does often go through these phases where some completely un-novel and probably infeasible concept becomes the Next Big Thing for investors. It'll pass, hopefully.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 17, 2017, 07:19:50 pm
Actually I've given this a little more thought and something worrying came to me.

NYU professor Johnothan Haidt in his videos (well worth the time even if you disagree with his ideas) talks about how after a few highly publicized child murders in the 1980s - around when they started doing the "milk carton" thing, parents started doing serious levels of "helicopter parenting" and stopped letting kids e.g. go outside and play unsupervised. At least they did in the middle class urban areas of the USA, don't know about the rural South etc. But in the places where they generally have the money to send you to college to get a professional degree, they mostly did this. Wealthy people have less kids, each one is a higher investment, gets more attention. Too much attention.

Then when the first generations of kids raised like that hit colleges they started demanding "official" responses to anything and everything that could possible offend them (notably, 2013+ on campuses). Basically, if someone calls you a name on campus now and you can plausibly link that to your identity in any way, the normal response is now to submit a formal complaint to Title IX or some diversity tribunal, or call the Dean of the school directly, even before you talk to the person to tell them you were offended. The norm is now to get someone else to deal with it. e.g. these kids had 18 years of their parents sticking up for them any time anything remotely challenging happens, e.g. if someone calls you a name, they have few coping skills. Even consensual sexual encounters are now codified with complex sets of rules that both parties are supposed to memorize at campuses. Basically, quite a few modern college kids have almost zero of the normal life skills in negotiating with other people - there has always been someone else who does that for you, and clearly delineated rulebooks for how to interact. e.g. their life is like a school-run Junior Disco, writ large, right up to when you leave college.

Then suddenly, they have to find a house, get along with flatmates, negotiate life's complexities. But the system inherently shields them from having to learn any of that at college. The kids themselves are the driving force now in implementing these campus "speech laws" and "relationship laws", not the college administrators.

So think about it, modern post-2010 college graduates, born in the helicopter-parenting 1990s, they graduate from a college dorm never having had to manage a house or apartment of their own, or really deal with meaningful interactions with anyone else, then a company comes along and promises them an instant house full of Friendstm, no cleaning, no bills, just add money. To someone who's had 22 years of other people picking up for them, that might sound much more attractive, than it would to use who've basically been out of home since 18.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on November 21, 2017, 10:30:15 am
Future of Life Institute published this video at the UN autonomous weapons convention in Geneva today.

https://youtu.be/HipTO_7mUOw

Perhaps I should have put it in the 'what made you terrified today' thread
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on November 26, 2017, 07:43:56 am
German scientists developed new material properties using 3D printing techniques.
Their material tranforms pressure into rotation, a material property that does not exist in nature.
They designed an ingenious little cube of less that 1/10th of a millimeter that can be printed using a laser 3D printer.
It uses rings and diagonal connections to guide pressure forces sideways.
These cubes can be used as 'cells' to build larger objects.

compressing the material by 1% results in a rotation of 2 degrees perpendicular to the angle of compression.
The scientist write in their article in Science that, for example, the material would be very suitable as a shock absorber.

Since a few years, 3D printing has spurred interest amongst scientists worldwide to create metamaterials with programmable mechanical properties that do not exist in 'natural' materials.
Transforming pressure into rotation was once such property that had not been realised until now.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/tech/duitsers-ontwerpen-nieuwe-gedrag-in-3d-geprint-metamateriaal~a4541459/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/tech/duitsers-ontwerpen-nieuwe-gedrag-in-3d-geprint-metamateriaal~a4541459/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 26, 2017, 02:12:56 pm
This reminds me of a foam (I think), many years ago ('80s?), that was designed to react differently to compression.

Normally it might look a bit like:
Code: [Select]
   Press
     |
     v
    ---
   /   \ -> Bulges
<- \   /
    ---
     ^
     |
   Press
...it was engineered to instead do something like:
Code: [Select]
   Press
     |
     v
    ---
    \ /  <- Thins
->  / \
    ---
     ^
     |
   Press

I don't know if it ever became anything interesting, commercially, but it was a new development at the research level of material design, certainly. May have taken quite a bit of complex processing ('template' building, foam around it, washing out the template blocks, as per some kinds of open-cell foam construction). With enough microstructure control, it sounds like all kinds of interesting 'wierdness' (it probably happens a lot in biology!) can be instituted, optimising both function and strength.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TalonisWolf on November 27, 2017, 11:02:16 pm
Just heard about this thread, PTW because learning random tidbits has proven useful in ways that help me keep limbs when people have bad ideas. Keep it up!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on November 28, 2017, 10:24:58 pm
Future of Life Institute published this video at the UN autonomous weapons convention in Geneva today.

https://youtu.be/HipTO_7mUOw

Perhaps I should have put it in the 'what made you terrified today' thread

The future is terrifying.  I do honestly believe something of this nature is inevitable, unless we find some way to break the correlation between sociopathic greed and positions of power.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on November 28, 2017, 10:39:15 pm
The future is terrifying.  I do honestly believe something of this nature is inevitable, unless we find some way to break the correlation between sociopathic greed and positions of power.

Well, there's always making the desire to have a position of power a disqualifying condition for getting one, but government exclusively by the unwilling tends to have weird incentive structures.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on December 02, 2017, 04:24:52 am
Bitcoins are becoming a significant problem for the environment.
All mining computers worldwide are now using 30.2 terawatthours of electricity per year, which is slightly less than the electricity consumption of Morocco, and slightly more than the electricity consumption of Slovakia.
The numbers keep rising fast, as more and more mining computers are needed to delve more math.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 02, 2017, 05:35:18 am
Maybe some more understanding of the algorithm for a blockchain is in order. Most people don't seem to have much idea at all about how it all works. I'm just going to skim some of the basics.

The difficulty factor of mining varies up and down based on the amount of processing power aimed at mining. The goal is to regulate the rate at which blocks are generated. There is no built-in increase in difficulty over time, the difficulty factor just regulates the speed at which blocks are generated.

What causes the increase in processing power is the value of the coins: higher value coins means that it's more profitable to mine them, which causes people to spend more on processing power to gain the coins. So you're not really wrong, except you have cause and effect reversed here. The difficulty is ramped up in response to higher amounts of processing power in order to slow thing down.

The only scheduled thing is the block halving. This has no actual connection to the difficulty factor. What happens is that every few years, the number of "free" coins per block is halved, cutting all mining profits in half. When that happens, you'd see the amount of processing power also halve in response, all else being equal. The idea is that the least profitable mining equipment would be phased out.

Additionally, it's wrong to see this in terms of absolute usage to "generate" the coins. Most people seem to think that "bitcoin mining" was implemented as something purely for lulz, and that they don't do anything except "mine coins". However that's clearly not the case. "Miners" are the people who maintain the database, with self-correcting backups, and do all the transaction processing. The "coins" they gain for doing so are in fact their pay for providing the service. Any cost in terms of electricity needs to be compare to e.g. the amount of energy consumed by rival institutions such as major banks. I haven't seen any info on how much energy is consumed by e.g. credit-card processing, however the fees for bitcoin (in terms of amount paid to miners per dollar processed) are lower than credit card transaction fees.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 02, 2017, 02:05:18 pm
https://theoutline.com/post/2556/this-frostbitten-black-metal-album-was-created-by-an-artificial-intelligence

Black metal album, plus others, created by neural networks.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on December 02, 2017, 09:15:40 pm
How does that seem like a good idea?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on December 02, 2017, 09:26:05 pm
PTW and be horrifyed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on December 05, 2017, 10:27:24 am
Actually I've given this a little more thought and something worrying came to me.

NYU professor Johnothan Haidt in his videos (well worth the time even if you disagree with his ideas) talks about how after a few highly publicized child murders in the 1980s - around when they started doing the "milk carton" thing, parents started doing serious levels of "helicopter parenting" and stopped letting kids e.g. go outside and play unsupervised. At least they did in the middle class urban areas of the USA, don't know about the rural South etc. But in the places where they generally have the money to send you to college to get a professional degree, they mostly did this. Wealthy people have less kids, each one is a higher investment, gets more attention. Too much attention.

Then when the first generations of kids raised like that hit colleges they started demanding "official" responses to anything and everything that could possible offend them (notably, 2013+ on campuses). Basically, if someone calls you a name on campus now and you can plausibly link that to your identity in any way, the normal response is now to submit a formal complaint to Title IX or some diversity tribunal, or call the Dean of the school directly, even before you talk to the person to tell them you were offended. The norm is now to get someone else to deal with it. e.g. these kids had 18 years of their parents sticking up for them any time anything remotely challenging happens, e.g. if someone calls you a name, they have few coping skills. Even consensual sexual encounters are now codified with complex sets of rules that both parties are supposed to memorize at campuses. Basically, quite a few modern college kids have almost zero of the normal life skills in negotiating with other people - there has always been someone else who does that for you, and clearly delineated rulebooks for how to interact. e.g. their life is like a school-run Junior Disco, writ large, right up to when you leave college.

Then suddenly, they have to find a house, get along with flatmates, negotiate life's complexities. But the system inherently shields them from having to learn any of that at college. The kids themselves are the driving force now in implementing these campus "speech laws" and "relationship laws", not the college administrators.

So think about it, modern post-2010 college graduates, born in the helicopter-parenting 1990s, they graduate from a college dorm never having had to manage a house or apartment of their own, or really deal with meaningful interactions with anyone else, then a company comes along and promises them an instant house full of Friendstm, no cleaning, no bills, just add money. To someone who's had 22 years of other people picking up for them, that might sound much more attractive, than it would to use who've basically been out of home since 18.
As a 22 year old American who works at and has been going to college for a few years: what are you talking about? This is not what most people are like.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 05, 2017, 01:26:52 pm
I'm talking about what a number of academics in the USA are talking about. It depends which college you go to. Here are a few links to get you started:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K92rOsjyLBs

https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid
Quote
I once saw an adjunct not get his contract renewed after students complained that he exposed them to "offensive" texts written by Edward Said and Mark Twain. His response, that the texts were meant to be a little upsetting, only fueled the students' ire and sealed his fate.  That was enough to get me to comb through my syllabi and cut out anything I could see upsetting a coddled undergrad, texts ranging from Upton Sinclair to Maureen Tkacik — and I wasn't the only one who made adjustments, either.

"Safe Spaces" is an orwellian euphemism. It's no different to right-wing's bullshit such as "think of the children". Both of these sound well-intentioned but they're actually about control. Since "conservative humanities professors" basically don't exist in modern colleges (it's 15:1 liberal:conservative in the humanities), the actual targets of the "safe space" movement are liberal educators who don't strictly adhere to the rigid ideology of social justice.

This is a civil war within liberalism, and the "good guys" are losing it, because the attackers are unscrupulously manipulating the campus's discipline and complaints mechanisms as a means of attack against non-aligned teachers. Students are the cannon-fodder, but I've heard of some of these actions being cheered on by more "postmodern" affiliated academics. Banning things like Mark Twain seems silly, however, one way to interpret that is that ideologies demand exclusive rights to the truth. Other texts get banned not because of what they say, but because they are independent of the ideology.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/
http://righteousmind.com/where-microaggressions-really-come-from/

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on December 05, 2017, 02:50:41 pm
I don't doubt that some people are ferocious in their attempts to game the system in order to get revenge or just cause harm in general and that there are people willing to appease them by allowing it to happen to their subordinates.

My problem is that in your last post you made it sound like this is a normal, everyday occurrence, that this is how people regularly interact with each other.
Basically, if someone calls you a name on campus now [...] the normal response is now to submit a formal complaint to Title IX or some diversity tribunal, or call the Dean of the school directly, even before you talk to the person to tell them you were offended.

The norm is now to get someone else to deal with it. e.g. these kids had 18 years of their parents sticking up for them any time anything remotely challenging happens, e.g. if someone calls you a name, they have few coping skills.

Even consensual sexual encounters are now codified with complex sets of rules that both parties are supposed to memorize at campuses. Basically, quite a few modern college kids have almost zero of the normal life skills in negotiating with other people - there has always been someone else who does that for you, and clearly delineated rulebooks for how to interact. e.g. their life is like a school-run Junior Disco, writ large, right up to when you leave college.

This makes it practically sound like 1 out of every 10 young people you meet on the street have bureaucratically assassinated someone in their lifetime and that just sounds crazy to me.

Don't get me wrong, this is a real thing that happens and it's wrong but it's the work of a loud and merciless minority that are taking advantage of a cultural climate, not something you can blanket an entire generation with.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 05, 2017, 03:54:19 pm
However, if I could inquire, what area of study are you involved in? Some areas don't really lend themselves to these sorts of dramas as much as others, e.g. it's biggest in fields where opinions matter as much as facts. However, the general idea of "fragility" doesn't always need to manifest itself as "sjw complaints" against lecturers. There's been an increase in "helicopter parenting" with kids hitting college with the expectation that everything will be laid out for them so they don't have to deal with it, this could manifest itself in numerous other ways that we're not really addressing here.

BTW, I really feel sorry for this art historian:
 
http://metro.co.uk/2017/07/24/art-professor-hounded-out-of-his-job-after-not-giving-trigger-warnings-to-students-6801299/

Quote
In one incident, a student complained that Bonesteel didn’t offer a ‘trigger warning’ before using the word ‘rape’ in a discussion of the comic book Batman: The Killing Joke.

He was forced to resign from his teaching career, because of a hostile gaggle of sjw-types in one class kept gunning for him for stupid-sounding things and filing complaints. However ... how can you have a trigger warning for the word rape? Wouldn't the trigger warning itself bring up more general images of rape than just mentioning it in the context? A trigger warning that you're merely going to mention something completely in passing would seem to be clearly counter-productive: you're priming people to have a heightened sense that disturbing material is going to be discussed, even if it's a passing reference: e.g. now everyone in the whole class spends your entire lecture wondering about when and in what context the rape reference will appear.

EDIT: Also note the irony of this "Safe Space" where what can be said and thought is dictated by some petty hitler-mentality students in a Lord of the Flies fashion. Hahaha "safe space".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on December 05, 2017, 05:37:28 pm
Wait, that guy's last name is BONESTEEL!?!?!? That guy is http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeMcCoolname (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeMcCoolname)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 05, 2017, 05:54:39 pm
Yeah, Professor Bonesteel. What of it? :o btw I should have cited the next bit too:

Quote
Bonesteel said, ‘When I said the word ‘rape,’ the complaining student yelled, “Hey, where’s the trigger warning?”’ A little exasperated by that point, I remarked, ‘Really? You want a trigger warning for the word “rape”?’
Literally he was supposed to give a trigger warning that he was merely going to say "rape". ("Trigger Warning: I'm am going to say rape later"). Lol hahaha, crazy times.

~~~

http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/30/technology/gm-autonomous-cars-2019/index.html
BTW, one more thread-relevant thing is that GM is looking at setting up a ride share service with their autonomous cars, the schedule is currently for the service to be available near the end of 2019. Ride-sharing in an autonomous fleet might have some advantages over buying a car for a large number of people. This could be like a paradigm shift. "Future" movies still present the idea of car-ownership as being similar to the current paradigm of ownership, however that could shift for a lot of people.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 08, 2017, 06:20:33 pm
OMG I'm facepalming at this "you're at risk because of bitcoin" article:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/hacking/were-all-at-risk-from-bitcoin/news-story/297a95b911e00152ffe887141458b8f5

Quote
WEBSITES are using the power of your computer to tap into the current Bitcoin and cryptocurrency craze, hijacking your processor to ‘mine’ for coins while you are online.

It's pretty crappy that some sites are doing that. But they're almost certainly not mining Bitcoin. Home mining bitcoin would suck balls.

Quote
It’s called cryptojacking, and runs instantly when you go onto certain websites, with no real way to tell on the surface if your computer has been compromised for digital profit.

Except your whole machine will slow to a crawl, because these things apparently utilize 100% GPU until you close the page. Just close any page that's really fucking slow, problem solved.

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If it has been compromised, not only is your information at risk, but your computer could overheat and eventually wear down over time if you continually get attacked.

How is your information at risk because your GPU is running hash functions? A mining script is also too busy mining to get around to hacking your system. Also, yeah I guess your CPU could overheat if you never close the tab that has the exploit in it, but it's not like this thing is GPU mining ...

Quote
Even if you have never owned any Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency, your computer could still be used by hackers, as what they want from you is the power of your processor. With other people’s computers working for them, hackers will then use an algorithm to find Bitcoin or other digital currencies anywhere in the world.

Oh for fucking fuck's sake. "find bitcoin anywhere in the world" what the fuck? How ignorant can journalists actually get? you don't find bitcoin - you process transactions, and the reward for doing so is that you get to create entirely new bitcoins as a free transaction at the start of the new transaction block you created. The coins are merely the incentive for doing the work. People are perennially confused that crypto has something to do with the coins themselves - it doesn't. The crypto is just "proof of work" and security.

Quote
Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency. Twenty-one million of them were released in 2009 and they weren’t worth much as they were pretty easy for tech savvy people to find.

No they fucking weren't. Getting bitcoins isn't "where's waldo?" and 21 million bitcoins don't even exist yet. 21 million coins is the total that are going to be created from now until the year 2140, and each transaction block creator gets a few bitcoins.

Quote
But they’re a finite resource. Think of them like gold. If there’s a lot of gold being mined, the price isn’t high. But inevitably, the world will run out of gold to find in the ground, so the price of it has risen.

It's nothing to do with scarcity. The rate at which bitcoin is created is stable by design, it's designed to produce a set amount per day, that only goes down every 4 years or so. In fact, the rate of creation hasn't changed in years.

Quote
The world was in the grip of the Global Financial Crisis, so many people had lost confidence in traditional markets. So purchasing a finite resource — such as bitcoin — made sense. And the price went up.

Well, no. Bitcoin didn't go up until 2013, well after the financial crisis. This is unrelated. Also, dog poop is a resource also produced at finite rates, but the price of that isn't skyrocketing. The price isn't rising because "scarcity" because that doesn't explain anything. Scarce things don't automatically rise in price.

Quote
But once many of these Bitcoin were ‘mined’, it became much harder to find. It was easier to trade the coin in a more traditional way, so non-tech savvy people were buying the currency. And their value has now skyrocketed.

Oh, christ. The rate of bitcoin hasn't changed. It's more costly to mine purely because more people are mining it now because the price is high. The difficultly to mine bitcoin changes dynamically based on how many miners there are. "mining difficulty" is driven by price, it's not what drives the price.

Quote
Doesn’t matter if you own Bitcoin or not. You’ve got a computer with processor. And that’s power that computer hackers want to use to mine for bitcoin around the world.

The "around the world" thing sounds like this idjit thinks the coins are hiding out there like Where's Waldo, rather than it's a network of transaction processors, and whoever produces a viable block the quickest gets to write their own transaction in, "finding" coins that never actually existed before right on your computer. In fact, they didn't "find" anything. They made it.

Quote
These illegal cryptojacking operations need to build huge help to perform the algorithms needed to find the few Bitcoins left that aren’t being traded on the open market. And they can’t do that unless they build extremely expensive servers. So they need to find more power on the cheap, which is why they’re infiltrating websites that regular people visit all the time, and putting a script on there.

Again, it's wrong because the amount of bitcoin produced per time period doesn't change (at least until 2020). The difficulty mining is purely because more people are doing it. Also, nobody would mine bitcoin on CPUs since it's silly. Mine a coin that designed for low-power systems instead.

Quote
Because there is only a finite amount of Bitcoin, it means it’s stored somewhere locally for you. Some people store theirs on their own computer’s hard drive, which actually has led to many people losing millions of dollars worth by throwing out their drives.

Oh, lol. Bitcoin exists is in the blockchain. What you store locally is your public and private keys, for receiving and sending bitcoin, respectively. Bitcoin isn't on your drive, that makes no sense at all. It makes a lot more sense if you actually understand a little about how it works. Also to highlight:

Quote
Because there is only a finite amount of Bitcoin, it means it’s stored somewhere locally for you.

WHAT THE FUCK EVEN? Firstly, bitcoin isn't stored locally, or even in one place. Your bitcoins are replicated in every mining node. It's what allows them to continue existing even if one machine goes down. Secondly, what on Earth would there being a "finite amount of bitcoin" have to do with it "being stored somewhere locally for you"?

Quote
CAN I MINE MY OWN BITCOIN?

Probably not. It’s 2017, they’ve been around close to a decade and are now worth a fortune. It’s not like they’re lying around and can easily be found.

Oh god dammit, I feel dumber now. The cost to mine coins always lags behind price - or a bit higher, but only if people expect the price to be higher in the future. If people are losing money then people stop mining which means the profitability of everyone else improves relative to the price. What has changed is that the elite miners have far more efficient mining rigs that you do. They dictate the cost of mining because they have the good hardware which can turn a profit from doing so. Basically, people with inefficient hardware are priced out of the mining market.

Quote
Bitcoin will only ever have 21 million coins available due to the algorithm in which it was created, meaning the less there are left to mine, the greater the value until it eventually reaches its peak.

Mr Dunworth’s way of explaining it is to think of it like limited edition shoes. Nike might only put up 10 sets of new limited edition sneakers, if someone destroyed a shoe, there would only be 9 left and those 9 would be worth more and so on.

Like Bitcoin, when it first was released, there were 21 million, which were much easier to mine then and come across meant the value was much lower. Now, like the Jordans, as there are less and less Bitcoins to come across, value has skyrocketed.

Oh god, just incoherent bullshit. No, there weren't "much easier to mine" which meant the price was lower, they were easier to mine because there weren't many miners. The rate of mining coins wasn't a whole lot much more than it is now.

Quote
Generally, the rate in which Bitcoins are available halves every four years, until eventually all 21 million have been found.

Again "found" is bullshit. You make a few coins when you create a new block of transactions for other people. And the amount is in fact a completely arbitrary decision by the creator. It could stay the same, rise over time, or go up and down in sine wave, making infinite bitcoins. Or it could just be any third-party random number of coins per block, e.g. it could be based on the weather. It's arbitrary.

Quote
Years ago, to mine Bitcoin, you could have found some using your laptop in just a few hours, however these days due to the limited supply, it’s much harder.

Again, this is counter to the truth. "limited supply" isn't why it's hard. "stiff competition for mining" is the real answers - more people want to mine it since the price went up.

Quote
HANG ON. EXPLAIN BLOCKCHAIN.

Blockchain is basically a decentralised computer system which can govern how information is sent across the internet, and is essential to cryptocurrencies. By decentralised, we mean there is no single computer, but rather information is verified across millions of different computers across the globe.

While in the real world, I can just physically give you something and you now own it and I don’t, it’s not quite that simple digitally. Think about when you send someone a photo over email, you’re not really sending that photo itself, but creating a copy of it and sending that copy to someone. You both now have the photo. This wouldn’t work in a currency world, because no real value is being sent.

So this is where the blockchain fits in, it allows people to send value (not just money) over the internet, by coming to an agreement on who owns it across millions of different computers. Think of it like Paypal, who could be the middleman in governing that yes you did send $100 to James, and now you have $100 less and James has $100 more. But with blockchain, there is no central company or organisation that looks over this that could potentially tamper with it.

If you were to try and tamper with data on the blockchain, you’d need to do that somehow on all of the millions of computers in which the data needs to be verified across, making it an essentially unhackable way of sending goods.

This lays the backbone for Bitcoin and other digital currencies, as it allows them to have an intrinsic value, as you can create a finite number. The blockchain will set up the agreement between its massive network that you sent those 2 Bitcoins to James, and that they are now his and you no longer have any ownership of them.

The blockchain itself has huge value not just for sending Bitcoin, but could be used to send anything of value — think the deed to real estate, the ownership of your car or even to verify information in databases to help thwart hacks.

While it currently is only really being talked about with Bitcoin, you’ll be hearing a lot more about blockchain as it starts to become more important in all our digital lives.

More or less coherent, except the guy has no fucking clue about the blocks in the blockchain and how miners make them.

I mean, this should be basic. An explanation of what coin mining is, how it fits into the block-chain idea, and why it was set up the way it was is in fact simpler and more sensible than the "21 million bitcoins were created. They could be on your hard-drive, it's a global Where's Waldo race to find them" explanation, which is patently nonsensical and explains nothing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 08, 2017, 06:24:13 pm
I still can't buy a sandwich with bitcoin yet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on December 08, 2017, 06:35:42 pm
The writers either had no idea what bitcoin is and were just guessing based off of random factoids they heard, or they were simply writing a scare piece to frighten the elderly and other not-tech-savvy people. Probably both.
Title: Req : Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on December 08, 2017, 11:48:29 pm
I've been seeing a lot of Bc news recently. Some surrounding its 'exchange rate' or 'heists' or being dropped by Steam, etc, because of its value and some seemingly totally random (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42223577).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on December 09, 2017, 12:28:19 pm
The most interesting thing I find about bitcoin is that people say "look, it's not controlled by a central authority."  The only thing worse than being controlled by a central authority is being controlled by a distributed authority. At least with a central one you can rebel against it or overthrow it or whatever. If it's distributed, good luck with that - you've basically given up control to a hydra.

Other observations:

People are mad or jealous about the people making massive returns on bitcoin because they are getting massive amounts (if they cash out) and yet they didn't actually produce anything for society*.  It's kind of the same with stock market millionaires - and probably why people don't complain as much about entertainers making massive incomes. At least with the entertainers, they had to actually do something; for the people who lucked out on an "investment" they just managed to ride an appreciation wave - they didn't (generally) actually produce goods or services which corresponded to that increase in value.

It's somewhat astonishing that people are piling all this money into an unregulated market. At least with the "traditional crooked banks" you have some deposit insurance.

*There is probably some argument that these people "produced" a more viable bitcoin network by making early "investment", so their gains are related to that, but that isn't how most people view massive gains.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on December 09, 2017, 01:08:48 pm
Its just using capital to get more capital for those with capital. therefor standard capitalism. I wont cry when it comes crashing down.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on December 09, 2017, 01:28:44 pm
Its just using capital to get more capital for those with capital. therefor standard capitalism. I wont cry when it comes crashing down.
Yo dawg, I heard you liked capital in your capital...

But more seriously, that's the thing though isn't it? They aren't using capital to get more capital. They are using money to get more money.  You can use money to buy capital, but they aren't the same thing.  It's a subtle and important distinction, and forgetting it (or having a system like we currently have that purposely confounds the two) leads to things like the recent recession.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: WealthyRadish on December 09, 2017, 02:12:46 pm
Making the distinction between money capital and capital goods is well and good, but loses relevance in the very context you're describing. The sole driving purpose of capital goods is to facilitate the appropriation of a greater share and quantity of the produce for the owner, and since money capital and capital goods can be freely interchanged with little expense they may as well be the same if applied to this singular purpose.

I don't know what any of this has to do with bitcoin, however.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on December 09, 2017, 02:43:35 pm
Well, that's the "modern" interpretation of capitalism.  There's another version, which apparently isn't en vogue any more.  It says there isn't a "sole" purpose of capitalism, but a couple.  The main alternative being that instead of using the capital goods to facilitate the appropriation of a greater share and quantity of produce you use capital goods to maintain a constant share or quantity of goods for less and less effort on the part of the owner.

Of course, that is the root of the entire modern debate about wealth inequality isn't it?  Cultural norms (not anything inherent to private ownership of capital itself) say that you keep what's yours and try to get more instead of just being content with what you have and simply try to make it sustainable with as little effort as possible.  I'm personally very lazy, so I'd much rather just be allowed to maintain my standard of living with less and less effort.  But instead we have a society that institutionalizes inflation and a host of other things like how benefits are tied to how many hours you work that means you are basically forced to maintain a constant level of work and increase output instead.

A good example is how mobile companies say "For the same price, now get 4GB a month data instead of 3GB" and what I'd much rather have is "no, give me 3GB for 75% the price you used to charge me - I don't want more data!"  That's not the only industry that does it either; about the only industry that you can get the same thing for lower price than you used to is consumer electronics, and even that I think is starting to change.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: WealthyRadish on December 09, 2017, 03:42:37 pm
The main alternative being that instead of using the capital goods to facilitate the appropriation of a greater share and quantity of produce you use capital goods to maintain a constant share or quantity of goods for less and less effort on the part of the owner.

This interpretation only holds for small businesses, where the owner is themself a worker, and the capital in question lessens the owner's labor (or effort) only. For some possible examples, a landholding peasant, an independent artisan, or a freelance programmer. If this business has employees and the capital is able to reduce their necessary hours worked or the skill/wage rate required of the worker, and this reduction in employment outlay is greater than the depreciation of the capital goods, then this surplus represents an increase in the share of produce that belongs to the owner, which may in turn be used to accumulate more capital, lower prices for the purpose of competition, or otherwise be consumed by the owner personally in whatever manner they see fit (including decreasing the hours they personally work by employing others longer, only for the sake of their own leisure and eventually removing the need for them to work in the business at all).

A major example where this idea of the owner lessening effort clearly doesn't hold would be a modern corporation, where shareholders typically exert zero effort in the goings on of production, and indeed often ownership of the company is itself essentially only a traded speculative commodity.

I'm personally very lazy, so I'd much rather just be allowed to maintain my standard of living with less and less effort.  But instead we have a society that institutionalizes inflation and a host of other things like how benefits are tied to how many hours you work that means you are basically forced to maintain a constant level of work and increase output instead.

This doesn't make you lazy, it's what most people desire in healthy societies (to lessen drudgery and focus on more meaningful pursuits). I would say the abnormal behavior is the opposite, the unbridled avarice we see completely unrestrained today. Henry George called it the fundamental law of economics that people will seek to satisfy their desires with a minimum of effort, though I would argue that he only had the luxury of overstating this point because he lived in a country and time when the great body of free working people were only recently losing their independence and made dependent on wage employment.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on December 09, 2017, 05:26:18 pm

This interpretation only holds for small businesses...

A major example where this idea of the owner lessening effort clearly doesn't hold would be a modern corporation, where shareholders typically exert zero effort in the goings on of production, and indeed often ownership of the company is itself essentially only a traded speculative commodity.
It doesn't "hold" only for small businesses - that's just steeped in the modern impression of what a 'corporation' is.  Consider that a valid reason for forming a corporation is that some enterprises require more resources than a single individual can acquire but a group of people could do it.  That enterprise could be something like a major infrastructure project, where the output of the company itself is the thing that benefits the owners - not just the "shareholder returns."

Corporations today are kind of a mishmash of this, but lean heavily toward the "we're just a company to shield ourselves from liability and to make stupid piles of cash" instead of the "we want a big project that will make all our lives better" side.  But there is nothing to say a company can't do that.  Often you see things like today that are more like co-ops than corporations though, and sometimes non-profits.

Now I realize some of this is hypothetical and academic, because reality seems to show that while that is a "mathematical possibility" it doesn't play out much in real societies.  A large part of it I think is that barriers to entry to most industries are so high that new competition can't come in easily, which means oligopolies in most industries.  So companies in those industries just enjoy increased profits when they increase productivity because there is no effective competition - the benefits of productivity no longer spread around.  This is shown by many studies of wage and wealth growth versus productivity growth versus corporate profits over the past several decades.

So I guess yeah I agree that most companies don't use productivity to reduce work required but instead just increase profits... which is arguably not going to turn out pleasant if larger and larger industries do no longer require workers.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on December 09, 2017, 06:52:01 pm

This interpretation only holds for small businesses...

A major example where this idea of the owner lessening effort clearly doesn't hold would be a modern corporation, where shareholders typically exert zero effort in the goings on of production, and indeed often ownership of the company is itself essentially only a traded speculative commodity.
It doesn't "hold" only for small businesses - that's just steeped in the modern impression of what a 'corporation' is.  Consider that a valid reason for forming a corporation is that some enterprises require more resources than a single individual can acquire but a group of people could do it.  That enterprise could be something like a major infrastructure project, where the output of the company itself is the thing that benefits the owners - not just the "shareholder returns."

Corporations today are kind of a mishmash of this, but lean heavily toward the "we're just a company to shield ourselves from liability and to make stupid piles of cash" instead of the "we want a big project that will make all our lives better" side.  But there is nothing to say a company can't do that.  Often you see things like today that are more like co-ops than corporations though, and sometimes non-profits.

Now I realize some of this is hypothetical and academic, because reality seems to show that while that is a "mathematical possibility" it doesn't play out much in real societies.  A large part of it I think is that barriers to entry to most industries are so high that new competition can't come in easily, which means oligopolies in most industries.  So companies in those industries just enjoy increased profits when they increase productivity because there is no effective competition - the benefits of productivity no longer spread around.  This is shown by many studies of wage and wealth growth versus productivity growth versus corporate profits over the past several decades.

So I guess yeah I agree that most companies don't use productivity to reduce work required but instead just increase profits... which is arguably not going to turn out pleasant if larger and larger industries do no longer require workers.
The paradox of modern capitalism. Its eating itself. The supposed reason and benefit its existence as a system is becoming utterly invalid as everything is consolidated. Yet we keep feeding it more public resources and letting it grow until it consumes us all.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on December 09, 2017, 07:41:50 pm
What youtube autoplayed while I was reading that. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_AvJzkPqQ8)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 10, 2017, 02:03:54 am
However, there might be a logical flaw with the general assumption here:

While the brain isn't a digital computer, that's a completely different point to the question of whether digital computers can model a brain. You can't just flip around logical statements in this manner, which seems to be the point Searle is actually trying to make. It's just plain fallacious.

Modelling a brain would be subset of the possible functions that a complex-enough computer could be programmed to execute. Showing that there's not a 1:1 relationship between the brain and an arbitrary digital computer is a complete red herring, if your actual point is to prove that digital computers cannot model a brain. Basically, almost any phenomena doesn't have a 1:1 relationship with the abstract abilities of a digital computer, but that is in fact entirely irrelevant to to question of whether a digital computer can be programmed to model that phenomena.

If that isn't the point he's trying to make then it seems kinda interesting but completely pointless. It's like proving a rock isn't a planet, when your point is to claim planets aren't made of rocks. It doesn't actually make a lick of sense.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 10, 2017, 02:13:26 am
Well cognitivism is clearly an extremely niche belief, if nobody is actually arguing that as a position, what is the point of you bringing it up?

It just seems like a straw man to attack AI research in general then, but critiquing in fancy detailed language, a viewpoint nobody is promoting.

The thing is, a brain could model a digital computer, and a digital computer could model a brain. There not being a 1:1 relationship between the two classes of things is pretty irrelevant to ... basically everything that's worth talking about.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 10, 2017, 02:17:52 am
Uh, like 60 years ago ... also saying that cognitivists thought of the mind as identical to a digital computer seems like a straw-man position itself, which Searle only adopted because he could twist it into a spurious attack on AI research

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitivism_(psychology)

note that the term "digital computer" appears nowhere in there, except in the reference to Searle's article itself. Cognitivists developed as a critique of behaviorism, and the field held that behaviorists didn't put enough emphasis on the internal cognitive processes. I don't see there any real argument that cognitivists were saying the brain was "like a computer" any more than the behaviorists were.

Penrose and Searle were both smart people but their anti-AI arguments real like voodoo science. Brain processes are (1) driven by the laws of physics, you can (2) model the laws of physics, so therefore, brain processes can be modeled (given enough computational resources). Basically they waste a lot of words discussing stuff that's entirely irrelevant. It doesn't matter how "non-linear" a function is (as Penrose argues), non-linear functions can be modeled mathematically just fine. They're really desperate when they start using arguments like that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 10, 2017, 02:43:34 am
Quote
I also don't see why you need to see me posting anything at all as a personal attack against you, as you seem to time and time again.

Uhh, where did I say anything was a personal attack from you to me? I just disagreed with the article, and pointed out the very likely bias based on who the author was.

Also, it's interesting that Searle brings up the "homonculus fallacy" as an argument, because that's one precise fallacy you could accuse Searle of abusing in the Chinese Room argument. e.g. he argues that the little man in the room doesn't understand Chinese, therefore there's no understanding of Chinese in the system. However ... that's pretty much a variant of the "homonculus fallacy": How can there be any understanding unless the little man in the room understands Chinese? Seems kind of like circular logic there. "Only humans can understand Chinese, therefore the lack of a human to understand Chinese means no understanding can exist". e.g. no subset of understanding could be possible, because understanding requires an entire person in the room who has complete understanding. Which begs the question of whether the human who "understands Chinese" is made up of smaller humans inside their neurons, each of which understands Chinese ... definitely the homonulus fallacy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on December 10, 2017, 01:54:01 pm
Interesting article.  It seems to be related to the idea about "what is the computational power of the universe, to be able to make the universe work".  Most people would say "the universe doesn't compute its state - its state simply evolves."  So the brain doesn't "compute", its state merely "evolves" due to physical laws, not a program.

At least, I think that's what the paper means by the point that physics is not syntactical.

Perhaps a less abstract example: consider the piston and crankshaft in the cylinder of a car.  This system doesn't "compute" the current air volume in the cylinder - the volume in the cylinder is just a direct result of the configuration.  To get more fundamental: when you put two charged particles near each other, the universe doesn't "compute" the force between them - the force just is what it is.

(Maybe.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on December 10, 2017, 02:48:30 pm
What youtube autoplayed while I was reading that. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_AvJzkPqQ8)
I felt a strong urge to find more songs like that and go around singing them.
Welcome to the club. 'Go Summon Up The Dead Ones' is just too catchy. So people in my town now have the pleasure of encountering a huge, ill-shaven, lanky dude silently muttering to himself a sing-song about the Ancient Ones returning and killing all of humanity.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 10, 2017, 08:34:32 pm
I was thinking about Searle's argument a little, and a kind of big flaw jumped out at me.

Searle says that we can't even truly define what a digital computer is, the interpretation is one we layer on our understanding of the system, it's not intrinsically "true" in any scientific sense. Therefore, how can we say that the brain is comparable to a digital computer.

However, that exact same argument can be used to say "anything" isn't any "anything". e.g. which atoms "belong" to a mountain? Where the mountain starts and stops is purely human interpretation. Therefore who can truly say that Mount Everest is a mountain? Or which atoms are part of a cat? Objective nature doesn't define that either, it's conscious beings who make that interpretation. So who is to say your cat in your house is "really" a cat.

That seems to be the big problem here: when someone is trying to prove that something is or isn't true in a practical sense, and they end up resorting to an argument that basically boils down to "but fundamentally, nothing is knowable" then they clearly have a bit of an issue with finding more straight-forward evidence, or they just wouldn't be going there.

The brain does process signals, and it does so according to rules (the laws of physics and the current state of the brain). The rules are complex however only because we lack complete knowledge of the state of anyone's brains, and perhaps our understanding of sub-atomic physics needs to improve too. However, to argue from that that "there are no rules" for how the brain processes inputs seems like "Argument from Personal Incredulity". e.g. Searle doesn't know what the exact rules by which inpurs are processed are, neither do you or I, therefore there are no rules is Searle's argument. That seems like a huge assumption.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 10, 2017, 08:39:18 pm
how can brains be real if our eyes aren't real
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 10, 2017, 08:54:30 pm
Quote
We are blinded to this difference by the fact that the same sentence, "I see a car coming toward me", can be used to record both the visual intentionality and the output of the computational model of vision. But this should not obscure from us the fact that the visual experience is a concrete event and is produced in the brain by specific electro-chemical biological processes. To confuse these events and processes with formal symbol manipulation is to confuse the reality with the model. The upshot of this part of the discussion is that in the sense of "information" used in cognitive science it is simply false to say that the brain is an information processing device.

It seems like this assertion is questionable too. Processes in a silicon computer propagate by physical electrical signals too, e.g. actual physical processes. So Searle's argument that brains aren't computers because they are "physical" seems to be fairly baseless. How are electrons, protons and neutrons actually conscious? This almost seems like voodoo science from Searle.

What the fuck is a "biological process" and why is it special and separate to chemistry and physics? It's this sort of unscientific bullshit that Searle's argument devolve into. He prioritizes things being "biological" as if that makes them special, which is vitalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism).This unsubstantiated exaltation of things for being "biological" is a major flaw - since his basic argument is that biological brains have a special status compared to ones made of silicon, then saying that they are special because they are "biological" is the classical fallacy of circular reasoning. In fact, it's a long stretch to say that we couldn't work out an equivalent set of symbol manipulations that each neuron is in fact carrying out. Neurons aren't conscious: the "physicality" is a red herring. It's the patterns and relationships that matter between neurons. Searle's argument is basically that consciousness is embedded in biological matter, therefore it's "real" vs one in silicon which is "not real", and that because we can't work out a "symbol table" for what a neuron is doing, therefore no such table could exist. All of those things are questionable assertions.

It also fails because it uses the exact same logical fallacies he calls out in this very paper. e.g. he calls out "syntax and symbols" as being purely human constructs layered on to of the real physics, yet here he is claiming some special unique properties and concrete reality for "biological processes" a term which is completely meaningless if we're talking at the level Searle claims to be talking.

Another core Searle's argument is that a simulations aren't "real" therefore they don't have the properties of "real" things. However, the question is whether e.g. a simulated heat "beats" or not. If you have simulation of an animal, with a simulated heart, then the simulated heart keeps them alive in the simulation. Without the heart, you simulate the animal dying. Whether the heart "really" kept the simulated animal alive or not is not a valid point of view: because what matters is how the elements of the simulation relate to one another, not how they related to things outside the simulation. The property of hearts that they beat and keep animals alive are higher-order properties that only make sense to talk about in relation to the simulation's internal relationships. Arguing that it didn't "really" keep the animal alive misses the point completely. it was real enough for the purposes of the simulation. It's no different to brain processes vs heart processes.

Personally, my view, is that a simulated brain with simulated processes doing advanced "brain stuff" identical to a conscious human would in all likelihood actually be conscious. This is an opinion however, because I strongly believe that conscious evolved because it's necessary to the correct operation of the brain. Conscious brains evolved because they are the most efficient use of the resources to achieve the task of controlling animal bodies. If you could build a correctly simulated brain in a computer that learns the same, and does the same functions as a human does, yet wasn't "conscious" then that would imply that conscious was unnecessary in the first place and would lead you to question why we humans evolved to be conscious when a perfectly functional "philosophical zombie" would be a more efficient use of the available resources. I don't believe "philosophical zombies" would actually work. That's my gut feeling for reasoning that a correct simulation of the brain would also be conscious.

This is something that we might actually have to grapple with because of advances in computing power decades from now. e.g. would a brain-scale neural network that grows the way real brains grow,  that swears it is conscious actually be conscious or would it just be a "philosophical zombie? This might be the equivalent of Catholics who back in the 1960s were warning people that children born from IVF would "lack souls" because they didn't have "original conception" which is where souls come from in Catholic dogma. However, the problem of people who "lack souls" walking around, falling in love and having their own children, would of course be a huge problem to explain in Catholic dogma, so it was dropped pretty early on. The idea of simulated brains "lacking consciousness" because they're bereft of the "biological spark" seems to be an argument born from the same cloth.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on December 10, 2017, 10:39:03 pm
/boot philosophy.dat (I inserted that in after I started typing as I thought it'd be funny)

I don't see why artificial consciousness can't be a thing. We only think consciousness needs a biological spark because the biological example of consciousness is the only example we have.

It comes right down to the philosophical question, "What is consciousness?" It's not a tangible thing, is a worm 'conscious'? a fish? a single cell amoeba? Is an insect hive a form of consciousness?

If consciousness is simply reacting to changes in the environment without thinking about them, then the simplest organisms are conscious. Is it planning and thinking ahead and strategizing, that is, thinking instead of pure instinct, then we've got octopi, some of the smarter arthropods, probably some fish, and the rest of the vertebrates.

At the same time, we'd have to ask ourselves what is sapience because you can't have sapience without consciousness, or can you?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 10, 2017, 10:42:43 pm
However, any biological thinking system is constrained to be finite, Ipsil, so properties which are posited on problems with infinite turing machines might not apply.

Quote
At the same time, we'd have to ask ourselves what is sapience because you can't have sapience without consciousness, or can you?

We'll need new terminology as this develops. Because things like "awareness" are currently inextricably tied in with our human experience but really covers multiple things. e.g. if a computer is programmed for face recognition and responds, in one sense it's "aware" of you, in that it can detect and react. However, it lacks any sort of "inner life" that enables it to reflect on that fact, which is another, quite separate thing we mean when we say "aware". It will require untangling all these associations we have that aren't necessarily true associations, but are tangled up in human experience.

EDIT:

It's actually possible that some of our systems already have a crude sensory awareness around the insect level. e.g. one NN was built based off studies of the navigation system in a bee's brain which was around 1 million neurons in size originally:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/wnjk34/this-drone-has-artificial-intelligence-modelled-on-honey-bee-brains

Quote
Launched in 2012, the Green​ Brain Project aims to create the first accurate computer model of a honey bee brain, and transplant that onto a UAV.

The project, based out of the University of Sheffield and University of Sussex, seeks to raise awareness of the declining population of honey bees worldwide, as well as to advance our knowledge of AI and honey bee cognition.

e.g. they're modeling a bee's brain, sticking that into a drone, now they have something that can fly around like a bee. If bee's brains only work because there's some spark of consciousness in there, then how does the drone brain work if it isn't conscious?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on December 10, 2017, 10:51:48 pm
I thought you were talking about the turing test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test), not sure what a turing machine (which is a totally different thing) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine) has to do with consciousness, or the turing test.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on December 10, 2017, 11:03:31 pm
If the wiki page is anything to go by, the turing-equivalence of consciousness assumes consciousness operates in a binary system. On/off states are certainly part of consciousness (because death), but the brain can't possibly be operating only on a binary system.

We have an understanding of how neurons work, but one neuron doesn't equal consciousness and we don't have a full understanding of the deeper aspects.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on December 10, 2017, 11:14:40 pm
How does that collection of neurons that make up the brain create consciousness though? That's the question behind the question really. As far as we know, you can't have consciousness without a brain (or central proccessing center, if you will) of some kind.

Can a decentralized network of nerves with no central point or maybe multiple nodes be conscious? we don't know because there isn't a biological example like that which we know of.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Strife26 on December 11, 2017, 01:53:22 am
The question behind all of these questions, though, is "what is consciousness," which lacks a rigorous definition.

EDIT: A thought on my above idea of adding and removing states. A possible formulation would be thus:

For our "Turing-like" machine, we have M=〈Q,Γ,b,Σ,δ,q0,F〉, where all but δ have the traditional formulation under the usual definition of a Turing machine. δ, however, is unique. It consists of the following:
  • write symbol
  • move tape
  • next state
  • state rewrite index i
  • state rewrite size n
  • action table to write over states of index i to i+n, of size m
A variation exists for every possible read symbol.

Any state reference to a state of index x+i is replaced with a reference of a state of index x+i-n+m; that is, x1=x0-n+m, for all x≥1 Still attempting to formulate the exact specifications. This is done to prevent going to a state that does not exist. Turing completeness is trivial- simply replace everything past the next state value of the action table with 0's. I am not sure of whether this system is Turing-equivalent or not.

Yeah, it's turing equivalent. It'd be a really huge increase in the size of the machine, but you could do all of that with an extended tape alphabet and a ton of extra nodes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on December 11, 2017, 02:15:04 am
Why limit to just latin and greek alphabet? Lets include cyrillic, cunieform, egyptian heiroglyphs, and every written script ever invented, both still in use and lost to history.

At that point, you'd probably want to ditch the tape for some other method.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 11, 2017, 03:16:57 am
So... apparently functional uterus transplantation is a thing now https://www.google.es/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/5044565/exclusive-first-u-s-baby-born-after-a-uterus-transplant
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on December 12, 2017, 05:27:27 am
Dutch national consumer service, Consumentenbond, warns people that want to buy a new phone not to buy the Samsung Galaxy S7, S7 Edge, or J3 2016.

From march 2018 onwards, Samsung will stop providing updates for these models, which will make their software age fast, and make the phones less secure.

The director of Consumentenbond, Bart Combée says it's "absurd".
"Samsung terminates support of 3 of it's phones less than 2 years after they were put on the market, and won't look back, while those phones are expected to be sold on the market way beyond their support termination date.
As far as we are concerned, Samsung has an obligation here that they can't just walk away from.


So yeah. Don't buy Samsung unless they change their crazy ways.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on December 12, 2017, 01:48:47 pm
Dutch national consumer service, Consumentenbond, warns people that want to buy a new phone not to buy the Samsung Galaxy S7, S7 Edge, or J3 2016.

From march 2018 onwards, Samsung will stop providing updates for these models, which will make their software age fast, and make the phones less secure.

The director of Consumentenbond, Bart Combée says it's "absurd".
"Samsung terminates support of 3 of it's phones less than 2 years after they were put on the market, and won't look back, while those phones are expected to be sold on the market way beyond their support termination date.
As far as we are concerned, Samsung has an obligation here that they can't just walk away from.


So yeah. Don't buy Samsung unless they change their crazy ways.
Forget planned obsolescence, just say fuck it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on December 13, 2017, 06:30:06 pm
You know, I just saw that commercial with the insufferable little hipster brat talking about "what's a computer" and it hit me: we now get to say Apple is hostile to homosexuals!

Alan Fucking Turing, prosecuted and chemically castrated for being homosexual is responsible for the concepts behind the computer I am typing this on, and which you are reading this on, so fuck Apple entirely.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on December 13, 2017, 06:35:49 pm
You know, I just saw that commercial with the insufferable little hipster brat talking about "what's a computer" and it hit me: we now get to say Apple is hostile to homosexuals!

Alan Fucking Turing, prosecuted and chemically castrated for being homosexual is responsible for the concepts behind the computer I am typing this on, and which you are reading this on, so fuck Apple entirely.

Huh? Are you talking about that commercial that used to air many years ago with the younger hipster guy representing MACs/Apple and the older guy representing PCs/Microsoft?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on December 13, 2017, 07:27:15 pm
Sounds like something else. Certainly the "I'm a PC/I'm a Mac" campaign (as fronted in the UK by a local duo Mitchell & Webb, IIRC) doesn't mentally associate itself with the above complaint in my mind.

I don't suppose there's a linkable demo of the offending material, is there? Just to royally annoy us all?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on December 13, 2017, 10:04:21 pm
Yeah, it's the only Apple ad that I know of which remotely looks like what Max is describing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 14, 2017, 02:00:53 pm
Nah, I think he's referring to some recent ad on TV where another kid asks what this kid is doing on his computer (iPad I guess: i kind of filter ads out: I'll check next time it' on whether it's an Apple ad), and he asks "what's a computer?" which is implying that because you got the i-version of something it has transcended normal categories of stuff. It sounds like standard Apple levels of meaningless fluff.

And btw, the old "Hi I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" was bullshit. The PC should have been a long-haired gamer with black jeans and a metal t-shirt, talking about all the bitching games you can get and mods that he's done on his rig. Mac gaming is a sad joke of an idea.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Folly on December 14, 2017, 06:44:34 pm
RIP Net Neutrality.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on December 14, 2017, 07:30:13 pm
2010-2012.
Edgy
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Magistrum on December 15, 2017, 06:49:48 am
His name starts with ISP, it's a trap!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 15, 2017, 12:51:05 pm
http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/hacking/grinch-bots-may-steal-christmas-by-snatching-up-high-demand-toys-regulators-warn/news-story/1d0b631d216257b33d26eaf45a98dfd1

This is a particularly scummy use of tech. Some people are using shopping bots that buy out all the high-demand Christmas toys, then they scalp them on ebay for vastly inflated prices. Of course it's not a viable long-term strategy: if it becomes expected every year then they'll just start making more toys.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 15, 2017, 02:55:01 pm
Dutch national consumer service, Consumentenbond, warns people that want to buy a new phone not to buy the Samsung Galaxy S7, S7 Edge, or J3 2016.

From march 2018 onwards, Samsung will stop providing updates for these models, which will make their software age fast, and make the phones less secure.

The director of Consumentenbond, Bart Combée says it's "absurd".
"Samsung terminates support of 3 of it's phones less than 2 years after they were put on the market, and won't look back, while those phones are expected to be sold on the market way beyond their support termination date.
As far as we are concerned, Samsung has an obligation here that they can't just walk away from.


So yeah. Don't buy Samsung unless they change their crazy ways.
Forget planned obsolescence, just say fuck it.

Uhm... Use LineageOS instead? Because-- yeah, they are the new cyanogenmod, and they offer WEEKLY images for that series of phone?
https://download.lineageos.org/herolte


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on December 28, 2017, 08:57:31 am
Hey, AI guys.

There's a game. It's called 'Universal Paperclips'.

Here's links to the Game (http://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/) and the Topic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168876.0) in OG.
Definitely wanna discuss it with someone, but don't really want to jump into 'spoilers'.

Warnings:
It is a clicklike game and so therefore it's both addictive and time consuming. It's better than the rest of the genre but will definitely eat a few hours.
The good news is that there is an endgame, and dedicated people can reach it rather quickly.

The 'Lategame' section has a research which will start playing music. If you're playing this at work, maybe turn the sound down.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on December 28, 2017, 11:09:29 pm
So computers could never be “open goal” oriented?
That’s perhaps more worrying in its own way
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 29, 2017, 02:09:03 am
Isn't that an expected consequence of the halting problem? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem)

EG, the computer does not even know (and CANNOT know) if it can even continue processing, let alone have absolute certainty that its process will reach the desired outcome.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 29, 2017, 02:18:07 am
I think the "paperclip maximizer" as it's commonly related has been mutated into a completely different argument. In the original version, there's no construct about not knowing how many paperclips it has made, it's making a completely different point altogether than the bastardized version that spread around later. This was the wording of the original version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_convergence
Quote
Suppose we have an AI whose only goal is to make as many paper clips as possible. The AI will realize quickly that it would be much better if there were no humans because humans might decide to switch it off. Because if humans do so, there would be fewer paper clips. Also, human bodies contain a lot of atoms that could be made into paper clips. The future that the AI would be trying to gear towards would be one in which there were a lot of paper clips but no humans.

Notice that there's no mention of 100,000 or 1,000,000 paper clips here, unlike the later version which spread. And there's no mention of the AI not realizing it's already made "enough" paperclips, because that concept is completely missing from the original formulation.

The entire point here is that "weak AI" could be really dangerous, because it has the "blind machine" aspect of traditional technology, along with the self-learning / growth capacity of AI. e.g. if you get in the way of an automated machine, it could fuck you up. Now, add in the capacity for self-learning and growth into that machine, and it's quite possible that a system designed to maximize something-or-other could go off the rails if allowed to grow by itself. This is basically the point:

https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer
Quote
The artificial general intelligence (AGI) won't revise or otherwise change its goals, since changing its goals would result in fewer paperclips being made in the future, and that opposes its current goal. It has one simple goal of maximizing the number of paperclips; human life, learning, joy, and so on are not specified as goals. An AGI is simply an optimization process—a goal-seeker, a utility-function-maximizer. Its values can be completely alien to ours. If its utility function is to maximize paperclips, then it will do exactly that.

So, it could be extremely "clever" from one point of view, but being extremely clever at achieving stuff does not in any way imply the need for conscious self-awareness. Basically it would an an alien intelligence with 100% task-focus at the exclusion of all other values.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 29, 2017, 02:33:37 am
<snip>
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 29, 2017, 02:41:07 am
if you read the whole section, he's basically listing things that could go wrong with a badly-designed AI that you can just assume a human wouldn't do. While they're unlikely, it's still worth thinking about.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=1mMJBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT123&lpg=PT123&dq=if+the+AI+is+a+sensible+Bayesian+agent,+it+would+never+assign+exactly+zero+probability+to+the+hypothesis+that+it+has+not+yet+achieved+its+goal&source=bl&ots=Pnq3RWyaid&sig=Lr3jiE8m9yV1HRgd_8lZ_Gmc6Ak&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3o46O267YAhUKzLwKHXEJCKcQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=if%20the%20AI%20is%20a%20sensible%20Bayesian%20agent%2C%20it%20would%20never%20assign%20exactly%20zero%20probability%20to%20the%20hypothesis%20that%20it%20has%20not%20yet%20achieved%20its%20goal&f=false

The concept of how a machine could "know" that it's task is completed is definitely worth thinking about. What if it's data bank was corrupted and the "counter" for how many had been produced was faulty? what about faulty sensors?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 29, 2017, 02:48:56 am
In the hypothetical, the machine is always capable of obtaining more resources, so saying it'll run out of CPU isn't really going along with the scenario. Paperclips is obviously just the fluff, it's meant to be about the possible ways any self-growing AI with hard-wired goals could fuck up.

The main point about the bayesian actor thing, is that there's always some finite probability that you've failed to achieve some goal (e.g. if you made 1 million paper clips, what if some were stolen or faulty, they need checking). If you read the article, he makes the point that more and more resources would be expended by such a system in an attempt to minimize uncertainty, and like a blind machine making infinite paperclips, it won't sensibly cut off the expenditure of resources to minimize uncertainty either, unless that's explicitly built into it as a goal, or it conflicts with another goal.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on December 29, 2017, 02:53:08 am
I have to say, I own Superintelligence, and the phrase:
though I suppose that makes for a dryer and more boring book to sell.
Severely underestimates how frustrating this book is to try and read.
This being said I don't generally go in for reading scholarly articles, but boy it flashes me back to trying to hunt down citations for an assignment by poring through word count chaff.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 29, 2017, 02:53:49 am
Yes, but it has to consider obtaining said resources. It can't do that if 100% of all its processing is being used for reward signals.
That sounds like circular logic there. If 100% of it's processing is reward signals, it couldn't make even 1 paperclip, let alone do anything.

Saying that such a machine couldn't obtain additional resources to use towards any of it's goals, under any circumstances doesn't seem like a sensible concept.

e.g. the machine must allocate some of it's processing power towards making paperclips. And, if it takes more than an immediate short-term view of paperclips (e.g. tries to maximize the rate at which paperclips can be made) it must therefore decide to allocate some proportion of it's processing power towards increasing it's capacity. The exact balance of processing power to current production vs future production would be decided by the machine, but such as system would definitely be capable of deciding it needed additional resources.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on December 29, 2017, 02:56:53 am
Yes but Reelya it'll be hard enough getting the owl to make paperclips. Why bother speculating about containment?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 29, 2017, 02:58:21 am
Sounds like a design/implementation issue.

The AI needs to have processing available to handle its reward/pain signals (It could be argued that NOT producing a paperclip is 'painful' to the AI, because it has a negative reward weight) but also needs processing ability available to evaluate changes to its methodology, or to devise new methodologies. (It is a MAXIMIZER, after all, it has to devise new strategies to continue maximizing its core goal.)

Depending on how much of its processing power is devoted to each task, it could be very ineffectual/unable to perform its mazimizing task and spend all its time 'suffering', or be unable to adapt to a change in situation that causes its initial strategy to fail.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 29, 2017, 03:02:57 am
I think bringing ideas about reward/pain signals implies a very specific type of neural-network architecture with reinforced learning? I don't think that's warranted. That implies a specific architecture, which isn't part of the original concept.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 29, 2017, 03:12:29 am
I think it is kinda requires that some kind of handwave is required there.

The supposition is that the AI could go completely rampant, and turn every molecule of metal in the universe into paperclips.

To accomplish such an end game, the maximizer needs to devise space travel, WITHOUT USING METAL, (Since paperclip production has higher priority than spaceship construction), meaning that the AI will have powerful disincentives to form a strategy that causes it to leave its parent planet to seek more raw materials before it completely exhausts local supply--- even to be aware that it has nearly exhausted local supply in the first place.

A dumb algorithm will simply use its default strategy until it runs out of resources, then go into failure mode constantly looking (and failing to find) available resources to construct paperclips from.  The very notion of moving to another location would require computations far removed from its primary goal, which it has no incentive to try. At best, a simple algorithm would attempt some kind of linear mutation, which is more likely to completely halt the processor than it is to create a local solution to the local problem the algorithm is facing when it runs out of metal to make paperclips from.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 29, 2017, 03:22:28 am
Indeed. It is the most efficient "solution".  (Paperclip signal created, no energy spent processing metal, only the energy to flip a few bits)

It needs to be explicitly forbidden. (A linear mutation methodology is more likely to result in wireheading (if just accidentally due to off by one errors, etc) than actual workable solutions, which the decision weighting system will then select for barring some other conditions.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 29, 2017, 03:52:58 am
You need to better define what constitutes a paperclip, and use as many diagnostic features as possible to prevent single mutations from producing the undesired outcome.

EG, a paperclip is made of matter, and that matter has a mass which is measurable. Is there something in the output tray? (Did the tray cycle/is this a new paperclip being measured?) Does it weigh the right amount, more or less? Was material consumed to produce it? etc...

These would be questions where even a single one being a "no" results in "Paperclip=NO", and failure to get the reward signal-- but this again gets to the halting problem in a way; For the same reasons you cannot be certain that any arbitrary input will not halt the computer, you cannot be certain that no arbitrary mutation will not circumvent the restriction, and enable wireheading.

The best you can do is prevent mutations to the decision weighting system (Read only memory, with fault tolerance), and require agreement with that system before a signal is considered valid.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Helgoland on December 29, 2017, 03:55:28 am
The problem is how you'd actually go and forbid it. Restrict direct control over its input, and it would go after indirect control. If it can't mimic the data counter telling it how many paperclips it produced, it can hack the counter and usurp control that way.

"Seize the means of production," if you will.
Taking this back to the human level: Communism == opium?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 29, 2017, 04:00:09 am
Not so much communism, so much as being able to (and getting away with) redefining what it means to meet a goal. (See 1984, and soviet communism, and their prenchant for redefining production goals so that even when a serious shortage happened, it was a !!success!!)  That is a powerful motivator to focus more and more on the fabrication of falsehoods instead of actually seeking real success, because it is divorced from reality and its constraints.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on December 29, 2017, 04:33:21 am
Blockchain wireheading?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 29, 2017, 04:37:37 am
Only if you disregard the requirements of the blockchain...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on December 29, 2017, 08:47:44 am
The supposition is that the AI could go completely rampant, and turn every molecule of metal in the universe into paperclips.

To accomplish such an end game, the maximizer needs to devise space travel, WITHOUT USING METAL, ...
Unless the metal is paperclips.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on December 29, 2017, 09:01:58 am
The supposition is that the AI could go completely rampant, and turn every molecule of metal in the universe into paperclips.

To accomplish such an end game, the maximizer needs to devise space travel, WITHOUT USING METAL, ...
Unless the metal is paperclips.
No metal needed, just the odd human... (https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1953-05/Galaxy_1953_05#page/n69/mode/2up)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on December 29, 2017, 10:13:37 am
I mean, there’s that game where factories are made of paperclips but uh.. probably not really feasible
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on December 29, 2017, 03:20:32 pm
turn the whole universe into paperclips using only paperclips for construction
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 30, 2017, 06:17:36 pm
Just something really cool, that had been bothering me for a while: Prehistoric dentistry. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20160229-how-our-ancestors-drilled-rotten-teeth)
I always wondered at how humans coped with the sheer rate of attrition caused by dental diseases, as poor dentistry is surprisingly debilitating and lethal to humans today. Looking into it though, the tales of our ancestors' attempts to sort out their teeth is fucking awesome. For starters, millions of years ago, before homo sapiens, there's evidence to suggest that our hominid ancestors were trying to figure our ways to scrape off infected teeth tissue. And while dental issues were debilitating and lethal back then, they were surprisingly rare - it's only until homo sapiens begins developing agricultural societies about 10,000 years ago that suddenly everyone's developing poor dental issues, with yet more surprising finds as women seem to have contracted more than men, and all of this cannot be entirely explained by a regular diet of carbohydrate rich foods. Even cooler, over 9,000 years ago the Indus river civilization set humanity on the path to sick dentistry by inventing the first dental drill. The rest is pre-history
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on December 30, 2017, 06:33:30 pm
Just something really cool, that had been bothering me for a while: Prehistoric dentistry. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20160229-how-our-ancestors-drilled-rotten-teeth)
I always wondered at how humans coped with the sheer rate of attrition caused by dental diseases, as poor dentistry is surprisingly debilitating and lethal to humans today. Looking into it though, the tales of our ancestors' attempts to sort out their teeth is fucking awesome. For starters, millions of years ago, before homo sapiens, there's evidence to suggest that our hominid ancestors were trying to figure our ways to scrape off infected teeth tissue. And while dental issues were debilitating and lethal back then, they were surprisingly rare - it's only until homo sapiens begins developing agricultural societies about 10,000 years ago that suddenly everyone's developing poor dental issues, with yet more surprising finds as women seem to have contracted more than men, and all of this cannot be entirely explained by a regular diet of carbohydrate rich foods. Even cooler, over 9,000 years ago the Indus river civilization set humanity on the path to sick dentistry by inventing the first dental drill. The rest is pre-history
You should see Neanderthal teeth. You want to see dental horror just look at them.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Exposed dental pulp was the norm.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 30, 2017, 06:57:16 pm
That's pretty Dorfy dentistry
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on December 31, 2017, 02:01:21 am
Unless the metal is paperclips.
No metal needed, just the odd human... (https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1953-05/Galaxy_1953_05#page/n69/mode/2up)
Humans that could otherwise be turned into paper clips? I think not.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on December 31, 2017, 03:25:07 am
Humans that could otherwise be turned into paper clips? I think not.
I mean, you can always turn them into paperclips later.

That's like saying "corporations want to make the most money, so they can't harm anyone to make more money because they'd have to spend money to do it".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 31, 2017, 03:29:00 am
So, you are saying the AI would produce a product lifecycle management policy for human-based FTL devices, such that humans are strapped in (using only non-metallic materials), connected directly to the AI using fiber optic cables (Fun fact, neural tissue can respond to light stimulus!) so that the AI can abuse them until they die horribly from neglect, then their bodies can be processed in a nuclear fusion reactor (made of ceramics, and materials too dense to serve as paperclips) to be converted into iron, which will then be used to make paperclips?

That's a lot of process there. Doubtful that the simple maximizer would come up with that using a bland old mutation based algo.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on December 31, 2017, 03:37:22 am
There's no reason why it can't just use metal, you realise. As long as the expected gain in paperclips outweighs the short-term cost of paperclips you aren't making now, the AI will still choose to invest the metal in paperclip-seeking projects. And yes, as long as it has enough memory, the paperclip maximiser is mathematically guaranteed eventually to come up with that plan, and every other finitely describable plan. An evolutionary algorithm eventually exhausts every finite subset of the possibility space.

BTW, wireheading won't save you either because a rational agent will still devote some resources to finding ways to increase its ability to wirehead even faster by obtaining more processing cycles to tick up the paperclip counter with, so that just devolves to the basic "destroy the universe to make itself smarter" case.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on December 31, 2017, 03:49:56 am
That assumes that the AI has the solution space defined that broadly, and that the AI does not encounter a local optima.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on December 31, 2017, 03:56:12 am
That assumes that the AI has the solution space defined that broadly, and that the AI does not encounter a local optima.
Evolutionary algorithms don't get stuck in local optima unless you did it wrong - once you hit a local optimum, you put just as much effort into searching the probability space as always, and eventually you find an even better optimum and flip to that. And once you have exhausted your current definition of the solution space, you expand your definition. All things AI are currently perfectly capable of doing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 31, 2017, 03:23:59 pm
I think this specific point in the article (which is about gaming addiction) has the cause and effect backwards:
http://www.news.com.au/technology/home-entertainment/gaming/gaming-disorder-to-be-an-official-mental-health-condition/news-story/cdfeff5ae01fda47603ae6f22ad152e2

Quote
The idea that video games can have impairments on other significant parts of a person’s life, such as work, was explored earlier this year when an American Time Use Survey linked working less hours to video games.

Between 2004 and 2007, men between 21 and 30 years old played two hours of video games per week, but that has now risen to 3.4 hours per week according to the report.

Men aged between 21 and 30 years old saw their working hours decline by 12 per cent annually from 2000 to 2015, compared with an 8 per cent decline for older men.

Wow, this is some shonky research. Correlation isn't causation for a start, and you can't say which one is the cause or effect here even if there is a link. Also the numbers don't add up when you work them out:

a 10% decrease per year in men's hours means men are losing hours off their working week every year. Meanwhile, a 90 minute increase in gaming over a decade means that each year they add 9 minutes of extra gaming per week. Hell, if you're skipping work so you can cram more gaming in, you'd expect to get more than an additional 9 minutes of gaming for each hour of worked skipped: you can fit 12 hours of gaming into the time need to get ready, commute, work 8 hours, then come home. If you only managed to fit 8*9 = 72 minutes of gaming into that day off, then gaming wasn't the reason you didn't go to work.

 Clearly, gaming cannot actually account for why men are losing hours so quickly. Extra gaming is therefore a symptom and the vast majority of the lost working time is spent on things unrelated to gaming, which have been conveniently excluded from the discussion.

So it's 100% a beat-up issue. Men have more time off, they do more of everything you do when you have time off, including a little gaming. Gaming is a symptom not the cause. But it's the typical media thing where a difficult issue like the collapse of people's livelihoods is written-off with a victim blaming narrative where they're just all lazy gamers now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 01, 2018, 08:30:35 am
I just wanted to mention, on a useful tech note, that firefox's Pocket bookmarking system is absolutely excellent. I stuffed a whole bunch of links in there from different cloud services that I had (feedly, trello, youtube watch later videos) which simplified things immensely. Now if i want to find something again at some unspecified future point i just right click on the link and send it to pocket, where you can later add tags, read watch and delete stuff.

But the really cool feature of Pocket turns out to be that it's not just a decent cloud bookmarking system. It reads the actual page you linked and boils them down to just the actual content and not all the site crap (navigation, recommended stuff, comments section etc), converting everything to a nice uniform legible font, too. Basically it's good if you want to keep stuff but also if you want to look at stuff without downloading a pile of junk that's not the actual article or youtube video, it's a great way to get just the article itself in a nice printable / tablet readable format.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 01, 2018, 09:44:12 am
Maybe those men were playing sonic 06, so the other 51 minutes or so went to loading screens.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on January 05, 2018, 04:33:18 am
I always thought that the paperclip thing was relevant because it's describing an easy-to-understand programming bug that could wipe out the human race, not because it's actually likely.  It just illustrates that a small error could result in everyone dying, which is pretty worrying even if it only has a tiny chance of happening.  Worse, while the specific example has plenty of flaws in it, that doesn't mean there aren't other possible AI bugs which could lead to human extinction.

Programmers tend to screw up in all sorts of unexpected ways, it just isn't scary because in the worst case scenario they brick a computer.  The idea that a perfectly mundane mistake could brick the planet, however, is very scary.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 05, 2018, 05:06:38 am
I think the most important message from it is that powerful AIs don't necessarily have to evolve towards anything remotely resembling human values or emotions. e.g. Skynet and all that, they're way too anthropomorphized. This is both good and bad: AIs aren't going to turn into Hitler, but they're also not going to give a fuck about helping us (or even themselves) either, unless we explicitly program them to gain that parameter. In the paperclip example, the machine only cares about self-preservation because it can calculate that the destruction of the machine that maximizes paperclips will reduce the projected rate of paperclip production.

We sort of have this assumption that as machines become "smarter" they're going to start resembling us somehow. But that's not the case. They can have entirely arbitrary thought processes and value systems completely unrelated to those of any living animal, because living animals have been shaped by survival, competition, cooperation, the cycle of life, reproduction. What we think of as "universals" of intelligent life are probably mostly contingent adaptive features for the type of lives we live.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on January 05, 2018, 08:34:01 am
Gaming addiction
I can, have, and will; taken time off work so I could play games.
Usually specifically first release days.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 05, 2018, 09:37:21 am
I know it can be a real thing, the thing I was questioning was the assumption that an entire generation of men's lack of work is because they're playing games. Because ... the numbers just don't add up, since the loss of work (10% of total hours per year over the last decade) is far more than the increase in gaming (9 minutes per week per year).

Basically, there are at least half a dozen things wrong with the article: (1) it's a victim blaming narrative. (2) demonizing new media (3) confusing percentages and raw numbers (4) correlation not causation (5) cherry picking/confirmation bias/ignoring other causes, etc.

It's actually pretty terrible that when something bad is happening to men the first instinct of the media is to find something that the victims are doing wrong. They're only losing work because they do dumb "men stuff", which excuses the media from even considering the ramifications of an entire generation of under/unemployed men for society as a whole. It's not a zero-sum game, unlike how the mainstream media makes it out to be. Men doing badly doesn't mean women are "winning", either gender doing badly hurts both genders, but it doesn't feel like most the media even gets that basic idea.

It's also extremely stereotyped, especially when you consider that it's women who have massively increased their amount of gaming over the last decade, not men. So, not only is it offensive to men by stereotyping an entire gender as lazy gamers to hand-wave away an increase in entrenched under/unemployment in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, it's also offensive to female gamers by "gendering" gaming in a manner that's contrary to the real-world facts.

Hell, women have increased their amount of gaming far more than 9 minutes per year over the last decade. Imagine if someone wrote an article suggesting that women playing so many games is holding them back from working more hours. It's actually more plausible given the numbers, but imagine the outcry.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on January 05, 2018, 12:26:49 pm
A paperclip maximizer wouldn't modify its goals, because that conflicts with its current goals.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 05, 2018, 02:52:51 pm
If I went the rest of my life never having to discuss "paperclip maximizers" ever again, I would die a happy man.
Well, from a paperclip maximiser's POV, and yours, it seems that your immediate death would aid both causes.

;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 05, 2018, 02:54:25 pm
Dont be silly. From the maximizer's POV, his purpose is to supply it with iron to make paperclips with, and to then buy said paperclips.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on January 05, 2018, 10:08:26 pm
Who says the paperclips have to be iron?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on January 05, 2018, 10:20:08 pm
Who says the paperclips have to be paperclips?
Who says the universe is not already made of paperclips?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on January 06, 2018, 02:47:57 am
We could discuss an Ispil maximizer instead, Ispy~
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on January 06, 2018, 05:18:18 am
A paperclip maximizer wouldn't modify its goals, because that conflicts with its current goals.
That depends on whenever its model of the environment correctly predicts its own change in goals. Which ain't all that trivial, considering that they can't get experimental data on the actions that change their goals without, well, changing their goals in the process of obtaining said experimental data.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on January 07, 2018, 11:51:59 am
Value drift?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 08, 2018, 02:35:07 am
Who says the paperclips have to be iron?
Now you've got me wanting to carve out a wooden paperclip, but not with a sensible shape for wood, no, I've got the urge now to see how thin and "classic metal paperclip" like I could get it... why would you do this to me? DO YOU KNOW THE INSANITY INVOLVED THERE?

Going back to the dentistry article I wonder how fine a stone gouge could get without losing the abillity to spin it around it's circle and bore holes? I mean, you could do it with scraping and such, probably simpler with a little flint chip drill/scraper instead of trying to use a gouge cause hey know what's better than having an infected tooth? SHARDS OF STONE BLADES CHIPPED OFF IN YOUR TOOTH!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 08, 2018, 03:08:33 am
Wooden paperclip:

Use knife to cut off a wood shaving.
Use knife on wood shaving against hard surface, to cut an oblate groove.
Profit.

See this example:
(http://www.coliro.de/images/product_images/popup_images/EM008.jpg)
(http://www.coliro.de/images/product_images/popup_images/EM008_detail.jpg)

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 08, 2018, 04:26:35 am
Wooden paperclip:

Use knife to cut off a wood shaving.
Use knife on wood shaving against hard surface, to cut an oblate groove.
Profit.

See this example:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, I'd make it prettier than that, do something like a slight spiral on a really narrow wishbone type shape, but I'd probably need to get a set of higher quality diamond files to get the bent-wire effect without access to better woods.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on January 08, 2018, 10:20:17 pm
Don't know whether this would go into the space thread or here. Maybe I'll post it in both places.

SpaceX may have failed to get an expensive government sat into orbit (https://www.axios.com/us-1515466086-a9249f16-c070-49ba-a5a4-0f432d825b3b.html). Ouch, this is gonna hurt their reputation for a while. At least until they can find out what went wrong.

It's light on details due to it being a classified mission and the main source being WSJ.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 09, 2018, 09:47:03 pm
Here's a thing they were talking about a few years ago, it's reality now.

https://games.slashdot.org/story/18/01/09/0158216/nvidias-geforce-now-windows-app-transforms-your-cheap-laptop-into-a-gaming-pc

Nvidia is running games on a server, live streaming the feed to your PC or laptop, and getting input from your device. So you can effectively run high-end games without owning high-end hardware or needing to do any sort of installation. Run any game on any hardware, as long as it has the streaming app ported to it, and you have a decent connection.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on January 09, 2018, 09:56:38 pm
Theres gotta be a catch somewhere though.....
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on January 09, 2018, 10:46:34 pm
I remember there was a service that did that, years ago. Sure, you can run any game on any hardware provided a good internet connection, but the latency is probably a bit painful for things like FPSes.
Not really a new idea. But maybe Nvidia will pull it off better than before.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on January 10, 2018, 03:45:27 am
Don't know whether this would go into the space thread or here. Maybe I'll post it in both places.

SpaceX may have failed to get an expensive government sat into orbit (https://www.axios.com/us-1515466086-a9249f16-c070-49ba-a5a4-0f432d825b3b.html). Ouch, this is gonna hurt their reputation for a while. At least until they can find out what went wrong.

It's light on details due to it being a classified mission and the main source being WSJ.

Lacking familiarity with the topic, I can't be sure, but if I was trying to launch a stealth payload, I'd make it look like it failed to achieve orbital insertion.

And don't say "there's no stealth in space." Sure, if your enemy has awesome telescopes scattered throughout the solar system and there's no spacecraft other than your own, then there's no stealth. As soon as you add space debris, civilian traffic that vastly outnumbers the military traffic, and noisy natural phenomena, then there are ways to hide things, or at least add uncertainty.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on January 10, 2018, 03:48:28 am
The best kind of stealth is the kind where you shoot all the enemy's telescopes so they can't see you. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 10, 2018, 04:02:19 am
"Sir, I have an object at 73° 12°!"
'Can you give me an id?'
"Hmmm, it seems to be a blindingly bright laser source?"
'ANOTHER? FUCK!'
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on January 10, 2018, 04:07:10 am
Blindingly? Nah, what you want is "meltingly"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 11, 2018, 10:13:12 am
Well then we'd be discussing free electron lasers and shit, which is a whole other batch of fun.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 11, 2018, 10:26:40 am
No no.. Hard gamma ray laser, or no deal. :P  They dont even know they have been blinded by it, until the next day!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 11, 2018, 12:34:50 pm
How will you aim your fancy gamma beam?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 11, 2018, 11:09:09 pm
Same as any other invisible laser. (Though, what I am suspecting you mean is, how do you FOCUS your fancy gamma beam ;)  The answer is that you dont, you use an ordered sacrificial crystalline gain medium to produce the beam already in a coherent state, via native internal bias of the source material.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 12, 2018, 12:50:26 am
No I mean aim, being able to rotate a mirror turret is handy and can be done faster than rotating the entire mechanism, but that sounds like a bomb pumped laser, and at that point why not go casaba-howitzer?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 12, 2018, 11:29:22 am
Well, RANGE, obviously!

:P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on January 13, 2018, 08:59:30 pm
Launch the melon over there, POOMPH, range shmange.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 13, 2018, 09:04:50 pm
Raspberry

There is only one man who would dare give me the raspberry.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 19, 2018, 09:19:32 am
The resurgence of the Cross-Channel Bridge (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42743909)...

Much apart from the Boris/Brexit component, maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on January 19, 2018, 09:40:24 am
The resurgence of the Cross-Channel Bridge (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42743909)...

Much apart from the Boris/Brexit component, maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?

Yay, we could add a pedestrian crossing for the migrants of Calais. /s
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2018, 10:24:48 am
Yay, we could add a pedestrian crossing for the migrants of Calais. /s
Why are the Europeans so keen to get rid of them? They're good for your economy

The resurgence of the Cross-Channel Bridge (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42743909)...
Much apart from the Boris/Brexit component, maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?
And interference with shipping
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 19, 2018, 10:44:28 am
[
What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?
And interference with shipping
That was part of the point of my question. Do we make thirty-three kilometre-long spans (or 20 mile-long ones, give or take exact ground points at each end) with loads of navigational warnings around each pier, or a small number of Dartford-like suspended bridging spans with active navigational control pulling traffic to the relevent mid-span parts of the channels and the rest across much closer cantilevering bridging-causeway stands that basically has huge big "do not sail this way at all!" warnings.


(People can already walk through the Chunnel/its service tunnel, if they get by security. Comparatively safe compared to hundred-metres-plus high road deck (probably better designed as a sky-tunnel for at least some of the length!) when it comes to unauthorised traffic. But I had intended to say "politics aside", must have forgotten.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on January 19, 2018, 11:51:11 am
This thread is about automation and technology, not about meat with personality.

Speaking of, I just built a new computer to try out some home-built neural network stuff. I think I'll use the shoe database and train a neural network that tries to make shoes look more comfortable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2018, 12:51:46 pm
That was part of the point of my question. Do we make thirty-three kilometre-long spans (or 20 mile-long ones, give or take exact ground points at each end) with loads of navigational warnings around each pier, or a small number of Dartford-like suspended bridging spans with active navigational control pulling traffic to the relevent mid-span parts of the channels and the rest across much closer cantilevering bridging-causeway stands that basically has huge big "do not sail this way at all!" warnings.
(People can already walk through the Chunnel/its service tunnel, if they get by security. Comparatively safe compared to hundred-metres-plus high road deck (probably better designed as a sky-tunnel for at least some of the length!) when it comes to unauthorised traffic. But I had intended to say "politics aside", must have forgotten.)
I'd wait a while to see if anything comes of it before making plans to accommodate it; Boris has had a habit of proposing Dorfy megaprojects that went nowhere because they didn't make much sense for their expected cost. It's simply a lot easier to conduct trade through shipping tbh, than building a megaproject for that much money - methinks Boris just wants to go down in history as having made the Boris bridge, just like his Boris buses or Boris bikes. Building a giant bridge on top of one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world too... It's disasters waiting to happen. The Times says the bridge would cost about £120B, which for comparison, is a lot more than the £48B we spend on the entire country's railway network (http://m.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/britain-sets-%C2%A348bn-budget-for-rail-infrastructure-in-2019-2024.html). Factor in that it's already easier to get to France from England than it is to get to parts of England from England, I'd say it's a political ploy meant to distract people, and not an immediate government priority. Then again, it is Boris, who is not easy to predict.

As far as engineering goes, there's not much to discuss since the plans are still theoretical. But more work has been done on possible Ireland-UK bridges/tunnels, (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23672538) which could perhaps indicate how a UK-France bridge could work. The Ireland-UK bridge would also serve a function in giving Ireland a land-route to the European continent, so there'd be more reason to build it. Politically, there'd be issues with either bridges, as both would be major risks for Continental Islamic or Irish Republican terrorism & logistics, but that's just how things have been for a while, and sorta goes with any increase in traffic

China did build a bridge of such a size as would be comparable to a cross-channel bridge between Hong Kong and Macau (http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2128482/hong-kong-zhuhai-macau-bridge-can-shorten-travel-times-and). The bridge's construction has pretty much wiped out Hong Kong's white dolphins (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/2100062/no-optimism-survival-chinese-white-dolphin-hong). Ecologically... I dunno, it'd be difficult. But technically it could be done, assuming no political or ecological obstacles.

Funnily enough, when I started this post, and when I submitted it - in that brief time, the plans died. (http://As ideas go, it has not been a resounding success. Architects, hauliers, the maritime industry, and an MP have so far expressed their scepticism about Boris Johnson’s ambition to build a 22-mile (35km) bridge across the Channel - and even the prime minister has signalled it won’t happen.) That was short. But yeah the biggest problem is going to be just how many ships and in particular, how many large ships will be able to pass through it. You've got all the ships supplying the UK (which carry 95% of its goods), then you've also got half of the EU's goods coming in by sea and the majority of that comes through the Netherlands - thus any restriction to the channel would fuck everyone up more than the benefits the bridge would provide.

Thus the three vital qualities to making such a bridge reality would be:
*Cheap
*Limits no maritime passage
*Robust against weather (protecting drivers above), robust against the worst collision (they can be bad (https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/224137/bulk-carrier-tanker-collide-in-dover-strait/)).

It's a pretty engineering idea, but it's not going to happen soon. What I think is going to be the next spicy meatball is arctic maritime routes opening up, with the first commercial ship to have sailed it without icebreakers happening recently (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/world/europe/russia-tanker-christophe-de-margerie.html), aided by global warming & melting ice
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 19, 2018, 12:55:34 pm
Boris has had a habit of proposing Dorfy megaprojects that went nowhere because they didn't make much sense for their expected cost.
As included in the article I linked. And as excluded by the wording I gave in my OP. Thanks for playing, though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on January 19, 2018, 01:49:47 pm

Funnily enough, when I started this post, and when I submitted it - in that brief time, the plans died. (http://As ideas go, it has not been a resounding success. Architects, hauliers, the maritime industry, and an MP have so far expressed their scepticism about Boris Johnson’s ambition to build a 22-mile (35km) bridge across the Channel - and even the prime minister has signalled it won’t happen.)

You messed up that part as: url=http://As ideas go, it has not been a resounding success. Architects, hauliers, the maritime industry, and an MP have so far expressed their scepticism about Boris Johnson’s ambition to build a 22-mile (35km) bridge across the Channel - and even the prime minister has signalled it won’t happen.]Funnily enough, when I started this post, and when I submitted it - in that brief time, the plans died./url (removed brackets so it wouldn't activate the BBcode)

Just letting you know on it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2018, 02:36:06 pm
As included in the article I linked. And as excluded by the wording I gave in my OP. Thanks for playing, though.
What's the issue?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 19, 2018, 02:53:57 pm
As included in the article I linked. And as excluded by the wording I gave in my OP. Thanks for playing, though.
What's the issue?
That you think I'm talking about Boris, when I said I wasn't? That you brought up Boris's other ideas, as if they weren't mentioned already? I don't think you read the link, and then certainly seemed not to have read "maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?"...

Never mind. It seemed like it would be a good tech/engineering discussion of what a Channel Bridge could look like (with current/latest levels of engineering prowess and ixeas), but clearly there's no milage in that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2018, 05:40:55 pm
That you think I'm talking about Boris, when I said I wasn't?
Where'd I say that?

That you brought up Boris's other ideas, as if they weren't mentioned already?
Brought up in brief comparisons to ideas which for example, were not included in your link, like Boris bikes - merely for the illustrative purpose that they point to an obvious attempt at legacy building

I don't think you read the link, and then certainly seemed not to have read "maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?"...

Never mind. It seemed like it would be a good tech/engineering discussion of what a Channel Bridge could look like (with current/latest levels of engineering prowess and ixeas), but clearly there's no milage in that.
You all right m8 cos you're being unnecessarily salty for no reason, I posted links to theoretical UK-Ireland bridges and the actual Chinese Hong Kong-Macau bridge to lend some ideas on how people have tried to plan similar things, or achieved similar things. You misjudge my sincerity :<
More on topic: some things are immediately apparent about what such a bridge would have to look like, all of which centers around its size, cost and the problem of maritime impediment.

The Hong Kong-Macau bridge is under 23km long, the Straits of Dover are at their narrowest 33km in length. This would make a Channel bridge, very fucking big. Not just in length - in order to ensure maritime passage for shipping, of which for example a QE Carrier is 45M above the waterline, a cargo ship usually between 30-40M above the waterline, but the largest cruise ships and luxury passenger liners can get to 70M above the waterline, and some of the world's largest ships pass through making width an important concern too. This would mean the bridge would have to hold itself 75-80M above the waterline at the spring tide and close-set pillars would be out of the question, even if cost or ecology was not an issue.

This is useful information because then it helps us to conceptualize what a theoretical bridge would look like. As before: Very big. It would have to be done in multiple spans suspended between multiple towers. It would have to be study enough to survive collision with some of the largest ships in the world, and it would need to be both resilient in the face of the worst Atlantic weather, and have weather guards for drivers actually atop the bridge. Using this handy thing (http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jmce/papers/vol6-issue4/L0646776.pdf?id=2383) we can roughly gauge that with a 1:6 optimal tower height to central span ratio, and with a 1km span per segment as per Bojo's proposal, each tower would optimally be under just under 170M high. Which if you factor in the depth of the straits at its deepest, the height of the tallest ships reasonably expected to pass through & the spring tide, should still allow the largest of ships through safely. Notably past proposals in the 80s (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6517611.stm) had planned bridges rise just under 70m above waterline, and was mooted for impeding nautical traffic, with smaller ships back then. It'll also be a suspension bridge (http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/41918/1/WRAP_Lewis_0873262-es-070212-wlewis_bridge_paper_wrap.pdf) because that'd be the most cost effective for a bridge of this size. Of note, the pylons of such a bridge would be pretty fucking tall too, for example in the previous link bridges with spans of a kilometer have pylons with heights of 298m, with the lowest being 155m. This would be a big bridge, the biggest bridge
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on January 19, 2018, 05:51:01 pm
And then theres sea level rise to consider. Obviously it won't become a problem for a while, but eventually it will become an issue, especially if ships continue to get bigger and bigger.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on January 21, 2018, 02:00:23 pm
You guys, you're forgetting that a ship is just essentially a piece of bridge that isn't connected to anything.  It would probably be easier (dunno about cheaper) to just build a huge fleet of ships with enough propulsion for station-keeping, line them all up, and connect them with flexible bridge material and let vehicles drive across them.

I'm sure there are far more absurd but plausible-sounding ideas.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 21, 2018, 04:27:26 pm
You guys, you're forgetting that a ship is just essentially a piece of bridge that isn't connected to anything.  It would probably be easier (dunno about cheaper) to just build a huge fleet of ships with enough propulsion for station-keeping, line them all up, and connect them with flexible bridge material and let vehicles drive across them.

I'm sure there are far more absurd but plausible-sounding ideas.
Still run into the issue that you'd have to have ways to decouple ships to allow other ships to pass through, all with such organization and communication that there are no collisions or cars lost to the sea.
A more radical solution would be to put cars onto the ships and sail them across... Using the ships like some kind of vehicle of the sea.

Personally I think we're better off building a space elevator connecting UK & France tbqh
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 21, 2018, 04:37:57 pm

A more radical solution would be to put cars onto the ships and sail them across... Using the ships like some kind of vehicle of the sea.

Madness!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 21, 2018, 04:47:43 pm
Just dig a second chunnel, then when Bojo goes in to inspect the work, brick up both ends.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 21, 2018, 06:26:09 pm
Scale it up/multiply it.  ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 21, 2018, 07:00:37 pm
That is a very pretty bridge concept
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 21, 2018, 11:32:56 pm
Except that anything that "slides" like that is a nonstarter, given that this is the Thames, and that river was (at the time) "infamous" for being fouled.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 21, 2018, 11:36:46 pm
No it's fine, back then they had a big supply of orphans to un-muck such things.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 22, 2018, 12:14:07 am
Gotta love that arsenical wallpaper, and the instability of the middle class of the time.  Still, Orphan makes a terrible lubricant. Not nearly enough fat on them to grease up the workings of a bridge like that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on January 22, 2018, 02:19:33 am
Are those ambush cannons hiding in bushes in the left lower corner?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on January 22, 2018, 06:57:37 am
(That'd be the Tower Of London's frontage. Helpfully orientating the view to those of us with a passing familiarity with the current scene. The horizon turns esturine a bit quickly, given its got to curve round Greenwich first, but that's artistic kicence for you, even accounting for the couple of centuries of trade, Germans, Yuppies, Domes and Olympics making their unique cobtributions to the skyline...)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Flying Dice on January 27, 2018, 02:04:41 pm
Looks like something in a recent update to Malwarebytes is causing a serious memory leak, hundreds of owners (myself included) are seeing it. It's eating >10GB of RAM after about two minutes of runtime for me. The active web protection process is also refusing to activate. If you run MWB, for now quit it from the taskbar tray to stop it from restarting. Their people have responded and are working on a fix.

https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/219918-ram-usage-what-is-going-on/ (https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/219918-ram-usage-what-is-going-on/)
https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/219996-important-web-blocking-ram-usage-issue/ (https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/219996-important-web-blocking-ram-usage-issue/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on January 27, 2018, 02:39:32 pm
Looks like something in a recent update to Malwarebytes is causing a serious memory leak, hundreds of owners (myself included) are seeing it. It's eating >10GB of RAM after about two minutes of runtime for me. The active web protection process is also refusing to activate. If you run MWB, for now quit it from the taskbar tray to stop it from restarting. Their people have responded and are working on a fix.

https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/219918-ram-usage-what-is-going-on/ (https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/219918-ram-usage-what-is-going-on/)
https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/219996-important-web-blocking-ram-usage-issue/ (https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/219996-important-web-blocking-ram-usage-issue/)

More evidence that humanity has passed peak technological quality.  We've traded quality for...I don't even know. Stuff doesn't even cost less than it used to; at least then I'd accept a quality reduction without as much ire.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 27, 2018, 05:29:10 pm
Certainly, programs never had problems, back in the golden past.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on January 27, 2018, 05:44:43 pm
Certainly, programs never had problems, back in the golden past.
Back in my day, there were none of them newfangled bugs! Now get off my lawn!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on January 27, 2018, 08:51:08 pm
The past definitely had bugs, but I don't remember anything as bad as the current state of QA.  Mostly I attribute it to the fact that in the past it was much more expensive to roll out fixes, so you'd better be sure you are almost right when you ship.  Now it's like "Meh, we can issue a patch next week if there's a bug. SHIP IT."  This is actually demonstrable - it's not just "get off my lawn" nonsense.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 27, 2018, 10:08:02 pm
The past definitely had bugs, but I don't remember anything as bad as the current state of QA.  Mostly I attribute it to the fact that in the past it was much more expensive to roll out fixes, so you'd better be sure you are almost right when you ship.  Now it's like "Meh, we can issue a patch next week if there's a bug. SHIP IT."  This is actually demonstrable - it's not just "get off my lawn" nonsense.
While that does happen, a bug introduced into an update is a different matter. Something like malwarebytes get constant updates, because the threat environment is constantly changing and the target hardware / operating systems are constantly changing. But it's also similar to e.g. Dwarf Fortress. if the dev tries and whacks all the bugs before shipping, then a much larger percentage of their time is spent looking for elusive bugs, while if you ship it, everyone can find and report bugs, meaning the dev's time is much better spent and the overall cost of production drops. The point isn't that they left bugs in, it's that it's actually more time-consuming to find the bugs than to fix them. 100 people testing a program for 1 year will encounter the same number of bugs as releasing the program to 10,000 people will in 3.6 days. Anything that gets constant updates is effectively always in the beta-testing phase.

Basically it's a rock and a hard place - do you only ship updates to virus software after testing them on every possible configuration to make sure there aren't minor bugs? No, because people are getting infected with the latest attacks while you're off doing that. You ship it with critical bugs fixed and up to date threat protection. Any bug that doesn't wreck your system is secondary because anti-malware makers and in an arms-race with malware makers.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Flying Dice on January 27, 2018, 11:03:19 pm
For what it's worth, the MWB devs already pushed an update that fixed the problem. Response time from initial reports -> patch was <12 hours I think.

That said, a nigh-universally replicable memory leak that appears and escalates in a matter of seconds after startup is the sort of thing that seems like it should have been caught if they'd tested the update at all.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on January 28, 2018, 01:15:57 am
They probably use some testing scripts that upload the build automatically if it passes the tests. Add in "check memory usage" to the barrage of tests I guess.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on January 29, 2018, 05:32:33 pm
British team made a breakthrough in gene sequencing technology.
They managed to sequence the entire DNA of a human by putting a drop of fluid in an USB-sized device.
The procedure only costs 1000 euros per sequence read.

The team used an existing device called minION, which analyzes DNA sequences by squirting them through a very tiny hole. A senor measures changes in the electrical field in the hole, while the DNA sequence rushes through it, and the sequence of DNA base pairs can be derived from those measurements.

Up until now however, the minION could only handle pretty short strings of DNA.
The British team prepared the DNA in a special way, allowing them to read sequences of up to 1.2 million base pairs with a single minION run.
By using special software, they could then put the measured sequences back together like a jigsaw puzzle, and end up with the near complete, 3 billion base pair sequence of the human DNA.

The team even managed to decode hard to read parts of the genome, on which big laboratory equipment failed to deliver. The DNA catalog of the human genome still has about 700 'white spots', which are parts of the DNA that are hard to reach or to read. The Nottingham team managed to fill in 12 of those blanks, just with their first experiment.
Furthermore, they also gained some new insights into the 'packaging' of the DNA.
Such information is crucial in understanding how the DNA works. Compare it to a cookbook, in which the grease stains on pages tell you which pages are used most frequently.

Total costs for the reading of one entire genome were 50 thousand euros, because 50 strings of DNA had to be put through the minION.
Still, this is a fraction of previous costs.
Only 15 years ago, scientists managed for the very first time to map the human genome. Back then, that cost 2 billion euros, and took 13 years to complete.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nbt.4060 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nbt.4060)
https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/doorbraak-iemands-dna-aflezen-kan-nu-met-behulp-van-een-usb-stick-voor-nog-geen-1-000-euro~a4563443/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/doorbraak-iemands-dna-aflezen-kan-nu-met-behulp-van-een-usb-stick-voor-nog-geen-1-000-euro~a4563443/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 29, 2018, 06:54:25 pm
Soon it will cost 50p to bootleg DNA at home and create squid people
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on January 29, 2018, 06:57:36 pm
Hey, squid people have their place too!

Being cold blooded, providing their own ink, and possessing the ability to squeeze through tight cracks makes them especially good lawyers! ;P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on January 30, 2018, 12:15:04 am
Battery tech just leapt forward dramatically. (http://news.mit.edu/2018/metal-mesh-membrane-rechargeable-batteries-renewable-energy-0122) All because previous versions needed a fragile ceramic membrane that we've just found out how to replace with a cheap steel mesh.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on February 01, 2018, 08:26:15 am
British team made a breakthrough in gene sequencing technology.
They managed to sequence the entire DNA of a human by putting a drop of fluid in an USB-sized device.
The procedure only costs 1000 euros per sequence read.

The team used an existing device called minION, which analyzes DNA sequences by squirting them through a very tiny hole. A senor measures changes in the electrical field in the hole, while the DNA sequence rushes through it, and the sequence of DNA base pairs can be derived from those measurements.

Up until now however, the minION could only handle pretty short strings of DNA.
The British team prepared the DNA in a special way, allowing them to read sequences of up to 1.2 million base pairs with a single minION run.
By using special software, they could then put the measured sequences back together like a jigsaw puzzle, and end up with the near complete, 3 billion base pair sequence of the human DNA.

The team even managed to decode hard to read parts of the genome, on which big laboratory equipment failed to deliver. The DNA catalog of the human genome still has about 700 'white spots', which are parts of the DNA that are hard to reach or to read. The Nottingham team managed to fill in 12 of those blanks, just with their first experiment.
Furthermore, they also gained some new insights into the 'packaging' of the DNA.
Such information is crucial in understanding how the DNA works. Compare it to a cookbook, in which the grease stains on pages tell you which pages are used most frequently.

Total costs for the reading of one entire genome were 50 thousand euros, because 50 strings of DNA had to be put through the minION.
Still, this is a fraction of previous costs.
Only 15 years ago, scientists managed for the very first time to map the human genome. Back then, that cost 2 billion euros, and took 13 years to complete.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nbt.4060 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nbt.4060)
https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/doorbraak-iemands-dna-aflezen-kan-nu-met-behulp-van-een-usb-stick-voor-nog-geen-1-000-euro~a4563443/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/doorbraak-iemands-dna-aflezen-kan-nu-met-behulp-van-een-usb-stick-voor-nog-geen-1-000-euro~a4563443/)

Should be noted that while that's interesting, sequencing a complete human genome already cost about 1k dollar, so the MiniON doesn't offer much of an advantage in term of cost. It is nicer to have long, reliable reads for some applications though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 01, 2018, 08:41:29 am
It is possible that the high cost associated with this process was related to the need to validate the reads with a known working sequencing approach. (It does not matter how fast or compact the system is, if it does not give valid results.)

EG, the cost of additional sequencing runs with this hardware might be significantly lower, now that it has been proven to give reliable data, since the older, and more expensive process does not need to be run in parallel.

Other sources of cost might be due to prototype hardware and non-economy-of-scale levels of consumable production/use. (EG, uses novel reagents that are not mass produced yet, but if the technology gains traction, would experience a precipitous drop in cost per kilobase sequenced compared to traditional methods, due to inexpensive supply of materials.)

It is too early to condemn this hardware on cost. This was a research trial.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on February 01, 2018, 09:07:26 am
I'm not 100% sure where they got the cost from actually. The nature paper doesn't discuss it. I think they're just looking at the cost of the flow cells (Cells costs 300-475$ a piece, depending on how many you buy), but I'm not sure how many you need from the paper. The MiniON website does mention that each cell genered 10-20 Gb of data, and the paper mention 90 Gb of data generated total, so they probably used several cells.

So no, that number doesn't include the re-sequencing, or the use of specific hardware apart from the MiniON cells, which are a commercial product.

And I'm not condemning this technology on costs. Just mentioning that it doesn't offer a cost advantage compared to existing technology yet. (And sure, price may fall, but price of competing technology is also going down). The advantages come from the low capital expenditure (making it more affordable for a lab), its lightweight and portable aspect, and the length or read wich help read some repeated regiongs better. I mostly pointed that to correct the blurb martinuzz posted, which made it sounds as if the new technology was 50x cheaper that what was previous available.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 04, 2018, 04:10:10 am
Here's an interesting concept:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/inventions/pay-someone-to-wear-your-face-and-do-all-the-boring-stuff/news-story/15881fd1ae04f201952f1292abc65d89

(http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/952dfcabf50a1f571fdfd6b1a48c79f3)

This is a prototype system where someone straps this to their head, with your face on the front, via webcam. They then go around and do person-stuff for you. The idea is that it's like Uber, except you're Ubering a person instead of a vehicle. BTW, i should mention, though it's probably not necessary, that it was invented in Japan.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: sluissa on February 04, 2018, 08:26:11 am
Here's an interesting concept:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/inventions/pay-someone-to-wear-your-face-and-do-all-the-boring-stuff/news-story/15881fd1ae04f201952f1292abc65d89

(http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/952dfcabf50a1f571fdfd6b1a48c79f3)

This is a prototype system where someone straps this to their head, with your face on the front, via webcam. They then go around and do person-stuff for you. The idea is that it's like Uber, except you're Ubering a person instead of a vehicle. BTW, i should mention, though it's probably not necessary, that it was invented in Japan.

I guess, "Hi, John asked me to pick up his dry cleaning, here's the ticket #" doesn't work anymore?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 04, 2018, 09:08:37 am
I don't think I could pay someone enough for them to wear my face.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 04, 2018, 09:29:55 am
But their own face would be hidden, so for that time, they are you. Wearing someone else's face could in fact be liberating, since you could do things and go places you normally wouldn't have the confidence for. There would be enough takers, if there was pay involved, but the problem would be the initial costs of the unit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 04, 2018, 10:01:13 am
But their own face would be hidden, so for that time, they are you. Wearing someone else's face could in fact be liberating, since you could do things and go places you normally wouldn't have the confidence for. There would be enough takers, if there was pay involved, but the problem would be the initial costs of the unit.

Surely you can find a better face to wear though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on February 04, 2018, 01:03:53 pm
Looks like an early step in the progress toward Joi from Blade Runner.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 04, 2018, 02:59:31 pm
But their own face would be hidden, so for that time, they are you. Wearing someone else's face could in fact be liberating, since you could do things and go places you normally wouldn't have the confidence for. There would be enough takers, if there was pay involved, but the problem would be the initial costs of the unit.
This is different from running around in a ski mask dropping squats. This is wearing someone else's face because you lack confidence in your own face. What is marketed as liberation is truly the worst oppression, because it trains people to be imprisoned in their own face
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 05, 2018, 12:50:43 am
*suddenly reminded of one of the old planet of the apes movies... looks for the scene..*

Here we go! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl14xh4GSrc)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 05, 2018, 02:39:49 am
But their own face would be hidden, so for that time, they are you. Wearing someone else's face could in fact be liberating, since you could do things and go places you normally wouldn't have the confidence for. There would be enough takers, if there was pay involved, but the problem would be the initial costs of the unit.
Just remember you're always exactly where you're supposed to be, it works great for literally everything, even stuff you wouldn't expect to be able to do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 05, 2018, 09:07:04 am
http://www.siliconbeat.com/2018/02/02/uber-and-lyft-want-you-banned-from-using-your-own-self-driving-car-in-a-big-city/

Quote
The rabble can’t be trusted with self-driving cars, and only companies operating fleets of them should be able to use them in dense urban areas.

So say Uber and Lyft, as signatories to a new list of transportation goals developed by a group of international non-governmental organizations and titled “Shared Mobility Principles for Livable Cities.”
...

In the list of 10 shared-mobility principles, bland generalities predominate — “stakeholder engagement” for example, is considered important — but the groups responsible clearly saved the best for last: According to Principle No. 10, the signatories — which also include other companies involved in transportation as a service — agree that autonomous vehicles in “dense urban areas” should only be operated in fleets.

e.g.companies like Uber and Lyft believe that only companies like Uber and Lyft should be allowed to have self-driving cars roaming around, at least for 99.9% of normal road usage. Why does this feel like the Net Neutrality debate all over again?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 05, 2018, 07:02:39 pm
"We believe that, philosophically, everyone should be forced to use our service and give us money in order to do anything."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on February 06, 2018, 04:26:28 am
I mean, depending on how 'dense' that is, I could almost agree. Congestion is a huge issue and it can be solved so easily simply with better public transport.
So naturally I'd agree as long as fleet vehicles have governmentally fixed rates in those areas- they'd agree to that right?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 06, 2018, 04:51:45 am
It's just another round of:

"Hey government people, we are totally the people who should be gatekeepers of this dangerous technology! Imagine if many vendors all had incompatible navigation systems-- why, there would be preventable accidents all over! We can totally solve this problem by being the only people allowed to make and use them! Please give us what we want so we can totally dominate and control this new market! THANKS! BAI!!" (Oh, and disregard those programmers, engineers, and other nay-sayers that assert [totally wrongly of course!] that all that really needs to happen is that there be enforced industry standards for navigation, communication, and data format specifications, similar to standards for crash test ratings, and other standardized testing and design requirements. They are evil people who want to cause horrible accidents. HORRIBLE ACCIDENTS!  WITH CHILDREN!! and and.... and pregnant women, and minorities!! They are totally bad people and you should not listen to them, ever-- Also, we will give you lots of money and perks if you give us what we want. Thanks. Bai.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 07, 2018, 12:20:42 am
Yeah, definitely not going to trust those two somewhat-shady companies with the very future of urban transportation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on February 09, 2018, 07:23:22 am
I was watching a show on the science channel about Tesla's death ray and wireless power. They make it out to be some big deal that could have revolutionized the world (if he weren't stopped by financial troubles, and possibly the nefarious scheming of Edison.) I'll set aside their misuse of the term "weapon of mass destruction" to describe the death ray, which they go on to describe as an anti-air defense system, and focus on the wireless power aspect. They mention two possible ways that Tesla envisioned the power transfer: Through the earth's crust and through the atmosphere.

With the crustal method, they mention how the people near Tesla's lab reported sparks coming from their plumbing, and even from horseshoes on horses. They don't bring up the potential disastrous consequences this implies. First of all there's the cost of insulating everything versus just building power lines. More importantly, you're pouring lots of energy into the ground. That energy can become heat, or disturb important organisms living in the soil. Not sure if AC can electrolyze water, but maybe there's an effect similar to microwaving. You could end up boiling off ground water and lakes, messing with water supplies and climate.

With the second method, you're supercharging the atmosphere. This could increase the difficulty of modern communication. Power lines disrupt cellphone signals when you're under them. Now imagine that's the entire world. Tesla invented radios and radio controlled vehicles, so it's possible he considered a way to deliver signals along with the energy. But what of communications beyond the atmosphere? How do satellites and space exploration occur in a world where Tesla succeeds? What is the effect on aircraft? What about birds that migrate based on magnetic fields?

What are your opinions? Are these fears unfounded?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 09, 2018, 07:30:57 am
Yeah, it's completely bonkers.

I can't really fathom "green" new-age types who somehow can't see that pumping electricity directly into the earth or air wouldn't be absolutely awful. I've actually met someone who I had this argument with, once: e.g. the electricity would be "free" because it's not metered. I tried to point out the obvious flaws, e.g. pumping electricity through the ground would be wasteful (electrical resistance => heat, loss as electromagnetic waves), that someone would need to pay to run the generators (e.g. massive tax bills), and that it would have devastating effects on the natural environment, but she wasn't having any of that.

So, the needed amount of generation would be much greater with the Tesla "free" electricity, meaning more coal needs to be burned, while the effects of pumping AC power through the ground would be an environmental catastrophe. Also, people like bitcoin miners and other electricity-wasters would be rewarded, while people who care about conservation would be penalized (since the electricity taxes won't discriminate). Additionally, if there's a finite amount of electricty generated, then some people would inevitably come up with ways to maximize their share of the electricity that's been gobbled up - e.g. you'd have a "tragedy of the commons" situation.

Imperviousness to the obvious flaws with a centralized plan to electrify the very Earth should be a clear warning sign that you're dealing with an insane person whom you should disengage from conversation at the first opportunity.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 09, 2018, 07:33:31 am
Yeah, probably saner to use wires than to pump tons of energy into everything.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on February 09, 2018, 07:39:04 am
The west seems to have this unhealthy obsession with the crazier (and I'm not even sure how many of these batshit ideas are just attributed to him by pop culture compared to which ones are his own) ideas Tesla had. Dude was a brilliant engineer that revolutionized the modern world trough electricity, can't you just leave it at that? Why does he have to be a mad scientist/alien that could've saved the world or something if only that scheming bastard Edison hadn't messed with him.

Also the problems you brought up aren't problems because to even get close to what's needed to have wireless/ground power everywhere would require some impossibly sized things. Like say the antenna for transmitting the wireless power would need to be on the thousands of kilometers scale of lenght to be able to get anything out of it on a global scale. Ignoring the impossibility of such a large construction the electrical properties of such a thing would be impossible to achieve by todays tech in anything but simulations.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 09, 2018, 07:46:51 am
IIRC, Tesla wanted to achieve his global wireless energy transmission idea by using the entire planet (earth's mantle + ionosophere) as a giant resonant tank circuit, by treating it as a giant dielectric.

He even successfully computed what the resonant frequency needed was (this was the major finding of the infamous colorado springs experiment, which was a test of concept) and had calculated how many, and where to place his giant tesla coils to achieve it.

Basically, the electrical wave would be "kicked" by each coil in a phased array type pattern, creating a "rolling" wave that bounces around inside the planet, and into the atmosphere, and back again.  He might have had difficulty keeping his towers properly synchronized with the technology available at the time, but today it should be perfectly feasible with NTP and computer control.

Now, the consequences of totally saturating the planet and atmosphere with a resonant energy wave (and the degree of power generation required to pull it off with) make the prospect a very large non-starter.  Take for instance, the increased risks of birth defects from livestock near high voltage transfer lines. Little datapoints like that strongly point toward it being very undesirable. It would also make certain forms of radio communication extremely difficult, if not impossible, because of the permanently excited status of the ionosphere.

Would his idea work? Sure-- pump enough energy into the planet at its resonant frequency, and the whole thing will light up like a christmas tree.  Is it a good idea to do that? Uhhhhh... No. No it isnt. 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 09, 2018, 02:07:29 pm
I mean, incidentally, fuck Edison and while we're at it fuck Columbus too, Tesla was insane for sure but he wasn't a greedy hateful shitbag like those two garbagesacks were.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on February 09, 2018, 03:08:58 pm
I mean, incidentally, fuck Edison and while we're at it fuck Columbus too, Tesla was insane for sure but he wasn't a greedy hateful shitbag like those two garbagesacks were.
Columbus was just desperate once he realised he fuck up hard. Y'see, he made contract with the Castillian-Aragonese crown: he'd discover a new route to the Indies and he'd become its Viceroy in return. Once he figured out that the land he found was not Asia, he panicked. He insisted on calling the natives "Indians", the region "the Indies", and so on. It ended up with him in jail for treason, so you can fill in that particular blank.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 09, 2018, 03:14:32 pm
Oh, this is going to end poorly. Some young crypto-billionaires are trying to built a libertarian-sounding crypto-city, where you can only buy things with crypto-currencies. The location is in hurricane-ravaged Puerto Rico, where they've scored some land for cheap, and they wanted to call it "Puertopia" except someone told them that means "eternal boy playground" in Latin, so they changed it. Also, Puerto Ricans don't pay federal income tax, so there's that motivation.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/central-america/puertopia-the-new-crypto-utopia-for-billionaires/news-story/49d1e6e1ad2df05a6cbf07dbbf466127

Quote
“I’m worried people are going to misinterpret our actions,” Mr. Pierce said. “That we’re just coming to Puerto Rico to dodge taxes.”

He said he was aiming to create a charitable token called ONE with $1 billion of his own money. “If you take the MY out of money, you’re left with ONE,” Mr. Pierce said.

“He’s tuned in to a higher calling,” said Kai Nygard, scion of the Canadian clothing company Nygard and a crypto investor. “He’s beyond money.”

That's about a guy who got his start mining gold in World of Warcraft, then bought into Bitcoin early on. They're acting like he's some sort of guru with wisdom of the ages, because he doesn't really value the money he's made.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: andrea on February 09, 2018, 03:23:09 pm
Is it even legal to not accept dollars as currency on a USA territory?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 09, 2018, 03:56:27 pm
Is it even legal to not accept dollars as currency on a USA territory?
Yes, it is legal to transact for things other than dollars in the US.

they wanted to call it "Puertopia" except someone told them that means "eternal boy playground" in Latin
It doesn't though :|
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 09, 2018, 04:05:02 pm
Is it even legal to not accept dollars as currency on a USA territory?
Yes, it is legal to transact for things other than dollars in the US.

It is legal to carry out transactions in non-U.S. dollars, but as a federally backed currency it is not legal to refuse U.S. dollars as payment for a transaction.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: andrea on February 09, 2018, 04:06:26 pm
yes, that is what I was asking for. If they decide to only accept cryptocurrencies in their puertopia, that would be illegal.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 10, 2018, 12:56:48 am
they wanted to call it "Puertopia" except someone told them that means "eternal boy playground" in Latin
It doesn't though :|

I'm aware, but they apparently took it to heart. Which is why I prefaced it with "someone to them", rather than state it as fact.

Is it even legal to not accept dollars as currency on a USA territory?
Yes, it is legal to transact for things other than dollars in the US.

It is legal to carry out transactions in non-U.S. dollars, but as a federally backed currency it is not legal to refuse U.S. dollars as payment for a transaction.

I'm not even sure this would be enforceable. If someone wants to barter they can accept whatever commodity they want, you can't actually force them to take US Dollars, if they don't have a price specified in US Dollars. e.g. you could say you want to do a share swap of one share with another, and there's no law forcing you to accept cash instead of the shares you wanted.

Crypto-coins are a commodity too: so if you specify you'll only swap a certain crypto-coin for a range of other goods, then there's no law to prevent that. e.g. what would such a law even look like? It would have to specify that if you're willing to swap a good for some third commodity, then you're legally obligated to specify a price in dollars, too. This would never be enforceable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 10, 2018, 03:06:50 am
You massively underestimate the steps the Secret Service is allowed to undertake to enforce that law Reelya.  If the failure to accept is reported, they will do nearly anything to deal with it.  Currency (and the taxation thereof) is an extremely serious issue for governments.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 10, 2018, 03:14:52 am
Yes.  The Secret Service is the enforcement arm of the Treasury (excuse me, until the founding of the department of homeland bullshit that is, they now fall under the umbrella of that worthless organization), they have extremely broad powers to deal with exactly this kind of issue.

In fact dealing with counterfeit currency and other critical treasury issues is the reason they were founded at all.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 10, 2018, 11:26:57 am
Once the mint was considering coining pennies in aluminum rather than copper and zinc or whatever, they stamped out a few examples and some congresscritters got a hold of a few to try and round up support for the new coins.

Later they decided against it and recalled the coins.

If you were found to have one today the secret service could probably bust into your house, kick your ass, rummage through your shit, and confiscate it as it is government property which was removed from circulation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on February 10, 2018, 01:02:33 pm
I feel like the secret service has more important things to worry about at the moment
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on February 10, 2018, 01:16:55 pm
Yes.  The Secret Service is the enforcement arm of the Treasury (excuse me, until the founding of the department of homeland bullshit that is, they now fall under the umbrella of that worthless organization), they have extremely broad powers to deal with exactly this kind of issue.

In fact dealing with counterfeit currency and other critical treasury issues is the reason they were founded at all.

Uh? Aren't stuff like local currencies a thing in the US?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on February 10, 2018, 01:23:05 pm
aluminum
/me twitches
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 10, 2018, 01:33:58 pm
Yes.  The Secret Service is the enforcement arm of the Treasury (excuse me, until the founding of the department of homeland bullshit that is, they now fall under the umbrella of that worthless organization), they have extremely broad powers to deal with exactly this kind of issue.

In fact dealing with counterfeit currency and other critical treasury issues is the reason they were founded at all.

Uh? Aren't stuff like local currencies a thing in the US?

No.  The U.S. dollar is the only state circulated currency within U.S. borders.  It is possible, tho' difficult, to work out an exchange with someone for a different currency, such dealings are very rare.  Some non-government currencies are in existence here, but they are almost completely irrelevant.

@Scourge728:  There are thousands of Secret Service agents, and the vast bulk of them are engaged in this exact task, it is a primary reason that the agency exists.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: WealthyRadish on February 10, 2018, 01:34:22 pm
The other day I was haggling with a clerk at walmart trying to get them to accept some old Tennessee Thalers I found in a jar, when of course in this jurisdiction they only accept Colorado Kopeks and California Florins. Some days I wish the Secret Service would come in and clean house, but then all these New Mexico Pesos I have lying around would only be usable as a paperweight.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 10, 2018, 01:45:43 pm
Looks like I have to change my earlier statement anyway, as of 1965 private companies are no longer strictly required to accept the U.S. dollar for a transaction, which renders the whole argument incorrect.

It should also be noted that there are around twenty or so currently circulated 'community currencies' in use in small sections of the U.S., though we're talking about used in a single town or county for those.

Sometimes I really wish that legal information like this was distributed more widely, I only found out about the 1965 change to the laws from the treasury department's page directly.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on February 10, 2018, 02:40:39 pm
The other day I was haggling with a clerk at walmart trying to get them to accept some old Tennessee Thalers I found in a jar, when of course in this jurisdiction they only accept Colorado Kopeks and California Florins. Some days I wish the Secret Service would come in and clean house, but then all these New Mexico Pesos I have lying around would only be usable as a paperweight.

A TRUE Californian uses Norton Dollars or pure nuggets still wet from the goldpan -- nothing else!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: WealthyRadish on February 10, 2018, 03:06:20 pm
I have a few Nortons that I took back as a souvenir from a visit to LA (no bills, it's all coins in various denominations of Bummers), but at least here in Colorado we're drowning in florins from all the yuppies moving here (most places even prefer them over local Kopecks). I know the empire schism is still politically dangerous back east; I have a friend who was almost detained at Dulles just for joking whether the ticket counter would take Nortons.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 10, 2018, 03:36:13 pm
aluminum
/me twitches
Molybdenium, platinium, lanthanium!

Also the coin was struck as a "1974 Aluminum Cent" so even if I did feel like using the weird sounding alternate version it would be incorrect unless you were saying "this 1974 Aluminum Cent was struck from aluminium" or some such nonsense.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 10, 2018, 03:37:47 pm
I have a few Nortons that I took back as a souvenir from a visit to LA (no bills, it's all coins in various denominations of Bummers), but at least here in Colorado we're drowning in florins from all the yuppies moving here (most places even prefer them over local Kopecks). I know the empire schism is still politically dangerous back east; I have a friend who was almost detained at Dulles just for joking whether the ticket counter would take Nortons.
Florins? Why are you using ancient Dutch currency?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 10, 2018, 04:03:57 pm
No, no, no. In the line of the alumin(i)um coins, those are similarly elemental coins. Fl(u)orin(e)s are coins minted specifically not to be kept in one's pockets for too long. Or, indeed piggy-banks, mattresses, safes, safe deposit boxes, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 10, 2018, 04:24:25 pm
Plus there was the awkward run where a mint employee took a comment about "getting these coins some air" and took it to mean "add some oxygens to those flourine coins" which is why we had to build a new mint three miles downwind from town.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 10, 2018, 04:49:07 pm
And all because some local politician bought into the rhetoric that they could literally stifle the competition, and once they joined the market, could not be easily removed. Of course, their corrosive and difficult to contain nature was never mentioned once.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 11, 2018, 03:12:34 am
Here's an interesting idea. Researchers are working on an AI app that uses machine learning to predict the age of the current user, through usage data. The idea is that your phone could detect that your kid is fiddling with your phone and lock down certain features, such as using your credit card on online portals or something. Currently, the app can tell children from adults 84% of the time after just one swipe, going up to 97% of the time after 8 swipes/gestures:

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/18/02/10/1925259/researchers-are-developing-an-algorithm-that-makes-smartphones-child-proof

This opens up an interesting area. e.g. just like humans can tell each other apart by "speech patterns", a device could learn your "interaction patterns" and be able to tell when a different person is using the device. This would open up a whole new area to explore for digital security.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 11, 2018, 05:10:41 am
I suspect that as adults become more expert in using their device, they'll start to 'feel' more and more like a child's 'easy and naive' swiping.

(No obvious information on what the AI, if unpicked, found to be its indicators. It would be interesting to learn what the key points might have been, if extractable from the mess of the internally-evolved data. Like the thing where the AI "tank image friend-or-foe" actually discriminated only based on sunny or non-sunny source photos, or somesuch. (The issue obviated perhaps by the exact same training tasks, in this instance, but could the sharper brains of one cohort solve the simple number-tasks quicker and this influence the swipey interactions?)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 11, 2018, 05:17:41 am
I don't think that is the full explanation, given that the system scores pretty well (84%) even from one swipe. it measures size of impact area, pressure, speed etc.

One thing I'm thinking of looking at is whether you can tell who's using a website based on telemetry from their mouse movements. That way you could maybe discern whether someone was using multiple accounts in a browser MMO.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 11, 2018, 05:26:33 am
Looks like I have to change my earlier statement anyway, as of 1965 private companies are no longer strictly required to accept the U.S. dollar for a transaction, which renders the whole argument incorrect.

It should also be noted that there are around twenty or so currently circulated 'community currencies' in use in small sections of the U.S., though we're talking about used in a single town or county for those.

Sometimes I really wish that legal information like this was distributed more widely, I only found out about the 1965 change to the laws from the treasury department's page directly.
I mean, I said that before you, but. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 11, 2018, 05:42:12 am
I don't think that is the full explanation, given that the system scores pretty well (84%) even from one swipe. it measures size of impact area, pressure, speed etc.
Yes, what I meant. The awkwardness vs unawkwardness of the swipe. Does the finger alight and glide, or bash down and judder across the screen? Does it land just in the exit zone of the first hotspot and depart immediately it is drawn over the final spot, or resolutely brought to the exact centres/is over-dragged beyond? In a complex (single) gesture, are the angles sharp stops and redirections or do they swoop in a perceptible curve?

All possible diferentiations that could be amplified by age (or lack of), but then in which direction does experience now go?   Does learning to be more flamboyant and 'easy' send either age-group towards looking like the other?

(Was it all a function of the test they set up? Same tablet set flat upon the same table with the same chair, meaning littler bodies operated the device more obliquely1 compared to the more top-down stabbings of the adult digits. Loads of speculation to be had, no doubt addressed in a more comprehensive review of the research results, but drifting around conspicuously unanswered in that initial report.)


1 Smaller fingers, also, don't forget! Surely they accounted for that? Did a side-experiment with a stylus (pressure, positioning and tracking effects, losing the size aspect) reveal detectible differences?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 11, 2018, 08:52:27 am
I don't think that is the full explanation, given that the system scores pretty well (84%) even from one swipe. it measures size of impact area, pressure, speed etc.

One thing I'm thinking of looking at is whether you can tell who's using a website based on telemetry from their mouse movements. That way you could maybe discern whether someone was using multiple accounts in a browser MMO.
https://panopticlick.eff.org/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 11, 2018, 09:28:17 am
Yeah, I've seen that before, but i'm more interested in measuring the actual mouse inputs to see whether a system can tell you from me based on just that, even using the same machine.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/the-car-of-the-future-is-taking-shape-and-it-will-know-how-we-feel-about-it/

Robo-cars getting that much closer, with CES 2018 journos being driven around town by self-driving cars. They feel confident enough to put humans who can write bad reviews in them now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 11, 2018, 09:35:05 am
It could tell that I'm not you because it isn't getting telemetry from me, so maybe it would be better if you disabled yours as well so we're anonymizing each other again.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 11, 2018, 09:42:43 am
Reelya has an interesting idea there though, (sadly, such interesting ideas are used to SUBVERT user control, rather than PROMOTE it, 9.9 times out of 10). If the touch sensor is sensitive enough to pick up slight "wobbles" (or jitters) in the touch area, such as from pulse rate, or arm-specific twitch responses in movement patterns, it could very well be possible to ID a person just by having them poke their finger down on the touchpad/screen for a few seconds, assuming you have sufficient historical data to perform heuristics against.

But again, such a novel idea will be used to positiviely identify you so that you can be serve another hot batch of annoying advertisements targeted at you, for your passive clicking on a clickbait article, or your passive interest in a piece of technology. (god, the number of strange adverts for things I sometimes get after doing a quick "see, this product totally exists!" in casual conversation at work... I would really rather that this not be a thing. I remember when it wasn't.)

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 11, 2018, 07:01:12 pm
I just find it amusing what sorts of things the various algorithms think they can sell me on today. I'm pretty sure it thinks I'm female, or is hedging its bets.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 11, 2018, 07:14:53 pm
For me its usually hot singles in my area.  Some random, oddly specific dating sites.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 12, 2018, 03:18:38 am
Well, I mean, recaptcha already makes use of the little micro-movements and speed variations we make when trying to do something like smoothly slide a cursor over and click things/type gibberish because robots aren't good at faking it as easily as we do it naturally.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 12, 2018, 09:59:09 am
SFAICT, reCAPTCHA does not intercept mouse movements (or stylus/finger-strikes on touchscreens) and is purely using the results of the "human OCR" (on carefully selected and optically munged scans) vs other hOCRs and its own sourcing ones (on the original un-munged, if questionable, scantext).

That has been augmented with NoCAPTCHA that reduces the number of reCAPTCHA requests for those for whom cookie-tracking/etc has already established a reasonable probability of the interacting agent having human-like habits behind it.

But I don't think there's been any word on using onMouseOver() data grabs at the same time to discriminate which form of digital interaction (X (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_electronics) vs Y (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger)). Unless you mean a rival setup - who then don't seem even to be doing anything useful (unless its provide much verified entropy for a /dev/random stream?) unlike the service it seems reCAPTCHA provides to make electronic image analyses of various kinds more accurate through confirmation/correction and/or training.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 12, 2018, 02:09:50 pm
I could swear it was using stuff like where we click and whatnot?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 12, 2018, 02:36:12 pm
I might be out of the loop, but I think that it's a different CAPTCHAer that does that, if any. And it seems like a good method when trained, but that's a more prolonged period than the basic reCAPTCHA principle that gets quicker across the "faking it" boundary, or pre-release volunteer kick-starting phase.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 12, 2018, 03:01:37 pm
Perhaps, I thought the bit with the "select pictures of cars" involved failing inputs where it was smack in the middle of each square because people just don't do that sort of thing? Though that may have been from an article about discussing how captcha could get smarter or more efficient, been a while, heck it's only recently that 4chan was forced to ditch the old "DESPERA 1789" captcha types.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on February 12, 2018, 08:13:20 pm
I for one welcome our new door opening overlords (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUyU3lKzoio&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 13, 2018, 08:50:57 am
YouTube and Instagram have received an ultimatum from the Russian authorities. If they do not remove videos, before tomorrow, in which opposition leader Navalny accuses vice premier Sergej Prichodko of corruption, and any links pointing to Navalny's research, YouTube and Instagram will be blocked from Russia.

not sure if this is the video in question, or an older corruption research video made by Navalny, I can't speak Russian, but this is the video linked by my newspaper.
https://youtu.be/Jv0fp5KpKhs (https://youtu.be/Jv0fp5KpKhs)
https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/rusland-stelt-youtube-en-instagram-ultimatum-voor-verwijderen-video-oppositieleider-navalny~a4569357/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/rusland-stelt-youtube-en-instagram-ultimatum-voor-verwijderen-video-oppositieleider-navalny~a4569357/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 13, 2018, 12:45:16 pm
The autotranslated text is surprisingly readable. Basically, a corrupt official is displeased that an investigation into his having underage girl prostitutes at his home, and that he routinely accepts bribes and basically "owns" a city financially, and has pulled out all the stops to hush the story.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 13, 2018, 01:58:42 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43030677

interesting beeb story, and a news site seems to have finally gotten a mostly-accurate description of Bitcoin
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 15, 2018, 12:18:33 pm
http://news.mit.edu/2018/chip-neural-networks-battery-powered-devices-0214

MIT makes a dedicated neural network chip that reduces the power needed by about 95%, which makes the tech feasible for a handheld device.

The actual way they did this is a pretty clever trick. A main part of the NN process is computing the dot product of two vectors (the inputs and the weights for a particular node), so what they did was to build a memory chip that has hard-wired circuitry that calculates dot products for you, right inside the memory chip, without you needing to shunt values in and out of memory through a serial CPU.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2018, 12:37:30 pm
Sounds like they reinvented computational ram to me...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_RAM

Which was itself, a child of an older paradigm, memputing, which was used back in the old vacuum tube days-- (where the memory elements themselves were capable of performing various logic operations without the need for a CPU at all.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 16, 2018, 06:03:57 am
Facebook/Instagram gave in to the Russian demands and blocked videos and links to anti-corruption material from Navalny.

So far, YouTube is not complying though, so expect YouTube to be banned in Russia.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russian-opposition-leader-slams-instagram-for-caving-in-to-the-government/2018/02/15/fddd06da-1247-11e8-9570-29c9830535e5_story.html?utm_term=.53057c1d71e2
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on February 16, 2018, 10:01:19 am
So is that guy just straight up not allowed to run for president?

Edit: Read more about him. I like the idea of him being a champion for justice but all the things he says sound like echoes of Trump. “Fake news”, “false charges”, etc. I guess it’s hard to push against the mainstream.

... so is there like a super informative post on the Russian politics thread somewhere?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on February 16, 2018, 11:51:37 am
So is that guy just straight up not allowed to run for president?

Edit: Read more about him. I like the idea of him being a champion for justice but all the things he says sound like echoes of Trump. “Fake news”, “false charges”, etc. I guess it’s hard to push against the mainstream.

... so is there like a super informative post on the Russian politics thread somewhere?

Well, yeah he was convicted on a corruption charge which might or might not be trumped up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 22, 2018, 06:09:04 pm
How stupid is it that Alexa answers to the name Alexa as the default on all devices?

This is playing havoc with people. Recently there was a story on TV about a little girl who asked Alexa for a doll house, and it sent her an expensive doll house. People who saw the story on TV reported that their Alexas also tried to buy doll houses after the story aired. So you can now just say "Alexa do <x>" on video and this will cause people's Alexa to obey the commands.

So if you get Amazon Echo or similar, the first thing you should do is definitely change the name. Especially if you're actually named Alexa:

http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/01/how-to-change-amazon-echo-alexas-name-to-something-else.html

Quote
Last week, when human Alexa’s father, Dean, asked her to grab some water from the kitchen, Amazon’s Alexa wanted to help, too. “Amazon’s choice for water is Fiji Natural Artesian Water, pack of 24. It’s $27.27, including tax. Would you like to buy it?”

To be honest, i have a bad reaction to anyone who has a device in their house which by default tries and gets them to buy over-priced shit as the default option to any query. If it's going to be a thing, it needs to be open-source and not owned by a company with a vested interest in selling you more stuff.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on February 22, 2018, 11:06:59 pm
How stupid is it that Alexa answers to the name Alexa as the default on all devices?

This is playing havoc with people. Recently there was a story on TV about a little girl who asked Alexa for a doll house, and it sent her an expensive doll house. People who saw the story on TV reported that their Alexas also tried to buy doll houses after the story aired. So you can now just say "Alexa do <x>" on video and this will cause people's Alexa to obey the commands.

So if you get Amazon Echo or similar, the first thing you should do is definitely change the name. Especially if you're actually named Alexa:

http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/01/how-to-change-amazon-echo-alexas-name-to-something-else.html

Quote
Last week, when human Alexa’s father, Dean, asked her to grab some water from the kitchen, Amazon’s Alexa wanted to help, too. “Amazon’s choice for water is Fiji Natural Artesian Water, pack of 24. It’s $27.27, including tax. Would you like to buy it?”

To be honest, i have a bad reaction to anyone who has a device in their house which by default tries and gets them to buy over-priced shit as the default option to any query. If it's going to be a thing, it needs to be open-source and not owned by a company with a vested interest in selling you more stuff.

Though this probably doesn't have much effect given you can cancel Amazon orders if they haven't shipped yet. More of a nuisance than a gaping security hole.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 22, 2018, 11:13:52 pm
It's enough of a hole that someone could exploit it, and apparently there are only 4 choices of wake-word that you can give any Echo device.

I also forgot to add that the little girl in the story asked for "a doll house and some cookies" so Alexa also sent them a 4 pound tin of expensive danish butter cookies. So, in other words, Alexa is probably tuned such that if there's any ambiguity at all, it sends you the most expensive item it reasonably can (or at least, the one where Amazon gets the biggest commission). I wouldn't have a piece of shit device like that in my house.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 22, 2018, 11:50:58 pm
This is the future that people welcomed into their homes.

People (at large; this is not a condemnation) decided that individuals who asserted that "Cameras and microphones, being monitored by a corporation, who's only real interest is to sell me things? No thank you, I prefer my privacy" were paranoid tinfoil hat wearing cranks. As such, welcome to the brave new world of targeted advertising. It's so easy to shop online, that it shops for you, when you dont really want it to.

Similar story for "smart TVs". 

Basically, devices like Alexa exist, in the form they do, because people are willing to tolerate it that way.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on February 23, 2018, 05:44:22 pm
I like the idea of voice activated stuff sometimes, but not when it has purchasing power
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on February 23, 2018, 05:48:41 pm
"Accidentally gave iphone power of attorney, lawyer can't figure out how to get it back from a smart phone, please send help."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Akura on February 23, 2018, 05:50:49 pm
"Accidentally gave iphone power of attorney, lawyer can't figure out how to get it back from a smart phone, please send help."

*attempts to jailbreak the iphone; iphone responds with a court order*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 24, 2018, 12:15:16 am
*automated legal aide succumbs to a speculative processing overflow attack initiated by the prosecuting expert system and attempts to enter a plea of "MARBLECAKE ALSO THE GAME" which is accepted somehow and results in your legal name getting changed to that*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 25, 2018, 07:09:34 pm
Tbh it's a bit disappointing seeing the world go from teaching their younglings to not even put their age online, to paying a company to install a microphone that hears everything in their house 24/7 and builds a profile of their entire life in order to sell them useless shit
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on February 25, 2018, 07:38:17 pm
Is using a false age online actually legal?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 25, 2018, 08:26:47 pm
If I was 8 and told Twitter/Facebook/whayever that I was 15, that would anull my acceptence of its T&Cs, but I would be below the age of criminal responsibility in most (and probably all relevent) jurisdictions so the worst repurcussion is the deletion of an account that I would not have been properly allowed to have in the first place.

If I am 18 and I register with the details that I'm 25... Well, I'm not aware of any reason that this would upset any corporate policies or legal barriers (or switch to 28 and 35, or upwards more, if there's a regime with higher-yet age-of-majority rules). In 'social media', you can register as "Queen Hepititus of Gwondaland" if you wish, and while your stated age (or year-of-birth) is likely going to be restricted to a 'limited' range in a drop-down box, they really don't care if you say your DOB is 1/Jan/1900 (if that's allowed) or even 29/Feb/1900 (if the sanity-checker isn't fussy enough), so long as you're not asking them to take on the corporate responsibility of being responsible for your actions.

And, switchways, the 65yo dirty-old-man playacting the 16yo schoolgirl... Whilstsoever that playacting doesn't breach guidelines, it's not bannable, and whilstsoever it doesn't go into illegalities (as acceptibly interpreted by already complex internationalised caselaw) it also should not be prosecutable in any fair court for the illegalities. The age thing might be contributing factor, but not fraud in and of itself.


I'll tell you now, though, that when I've been asked to give a DOB for various places (not actually tied to anything like online banking, etc) , I have never given my actual DOB. Never outright lied, like makng myself not underage when I really am (much too late for that, anyway... I was old enough to get past most (ostensibly) age-limited resources on the web before ther was a web!), but always moved the date by a given amount just to Stick It To The Man Big Data, should The Man Big Data ever get ahold of it. I have never found a T&C that has any reasonable prohibition against my doing this, so it's all fair game.


edit: Just checked, and this forum has my DOB as 00-00-0000. Forgot to note whether that was DD-MM-YYYY or the stupid way round (though internally I prefer YYYY-MM-DD over both of those), but as it wouldn't matter anyway I'm not going to go back and find out properly.

edit2: Erm. Actually I did go back and check. Despite what I just wrote. And it is YYYY-MM-DD, thus 0000-00-00. Just so you know that I had (not) converted it automatically in my head, anyway, yet I had assumed I hadn't (not) done so. That's for the pedants out there..
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 25, 2018, 11:10:03 pm
Is using a false age online actually legal?

How would you enforce a law like that? It's no more illegal than any other piece of information you put into a website. e.g. if someone asks you for your name in real life and you say "Jack Shit", you can't be arrested. Websites have no more legal standing than that. There's no law that forces you to be truthful at all times.

in fact the statement "using a false age online" is pretty vague. e.g. it would be pretty silly if you could be arrested if I made a website that just said "what is your age?" and you entered a false age, then i called the police on you. And the fact is, "big" websites have no more legal standing than that silly one-page website I made. e.g. lying to Twitter about your age is no more an enforceable crime than lying to bay12 about your age, or lying on a website that you yourself created.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 26, 2018, 06:39:42 am
Well, I think I may have found a neural network project that I actually find interesting. I'm curious whether I'm crazy/an idiot or that this project (https://numenta.com) is actually as novel as it appears?
I can't actually work out what they're saying. Sounds a bit like they think that they can work with a kind of inverted form of what reflexology allegedly is to do stuff, but I may have missed what stuff they thus want to do, leaving us with just the "we think a kind of geotagging of knowledge is what we need to do, so we're having a go at doing that".

I'd appreciate a better summary, though. I know that they aren't wanting to publicise their secret internal plan to take over the world technical IP, but they seem not to be writing a web front-page (which acts as a drill-down in itself) that's got any tangible ideas on it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 26, 2018, 12:25:40 pm
Oh, I wasn't serious about the hidden agenda. I just don't see what's exciting you, yet. Or the novelty aspect, if it's the weighted input thing, because that's par for the course in NNs, isn't it?

I thought the new part was the bit about "All areas of the neocortex assign their input to a 'location' in the external world." Which reminds me of a stateful machine, perhaps formed in an abstraction of logical feedback loops. Designing that in (with preconceptions) is trivial, when surely the Holy Grail is to find it cropping up as an emergent property, during training, upon deep analysis of a system not actually primed (perhaps prejudicially) with that as an intention.

Or I might just be reading it/you wrong. That's not unlikely.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: tonnot98 on February 26, 2018, 02:03:44 pm
-snip, wrong thread-
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 26, 2018, 03:48:11 pm
(My homegrown NN experiments always have been so simple. That's the point, right? Once you start passing anything more than a simple value (and boolean is better, to be converted to a trained weighted value to be added/subtracted with all the other inputs to the next neural node) along a link, you're multiplying the necessary complexities of link indexing and thresholding beyond exponentiality. Which might give you a good pseudo-neural behaviour not available otherwise, but makes the undulating landscape of 'fitness' to training so much more expansive that you're going to have to run and exclude far more evolving configurations than may be practical, in your goal of finding a significant local maxima to the training data...)

(Look, it seems clear that I'm not at all up-to-date on the current state of the art NN research, obviously, but this is like Object Orientated programming all over again, in that I see why some people think it's the answer to everything, but my head worries about the overheads it inevitably produces. And if this lot have rediscovered an equivalent of a good, tight low-level functional (if pseudo-multi-threaded) programming scheme then I'm with them, but (if I've not got the wrong end of the wrong stick) it's not a new idea.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2018, 04:07:56 pm
Oh, I wasn't serious about the hidden agenda. I just don't see what's exciting you, yet. Or the novelty aspect, if it's the weighted input thing, because that's par for the course in NNs, isn't it?

I thought the new part was the bit about "All areas of the neocortex assign their input to a 'location' in the external world." Which reminds me of a stateful machine, perhaps formed in an abstraction of logical feedback loops. Designing that in (with preconceptions) is trivial, when surely the Holy Grail is to find it cropping up as an emergent property, during training, upon deep analysis of a system not actually primed (perhaps prejudicially) with that as an intention.

Or I might just be reading it/you wrong. That's not unlikely.

Nah, expecting some "magic" emergent property from a single network in real-time is unrealistic. The real brain has specific regions which evolved over 100s of millions of years to do very specific tasks.  e.g. if the brain is damaged in specific regions, then you get oddly specific losses of faculties, like losing you sense of what "up" means. e.g. think about newborn foals. They're walking within minutes of being born. If they really had a "blank slate" NN-brain it wouldn't be possible for them to pretty much instantly be up and walking and finding just the right food source, their mother's udder. So while in one sense they're "learning" how to do those things, it's only because they're learning at the conscious level how to access pre-programmed facilities that are hard-wired at the sub-conscious level.

So, while there's local plasticity for mastering tasks, real brains have an overall plan/structure, so it's very unrealistic to expect that we can make a single undifferentiated network that can just bootstrap itself to meaningful human-scale intelligence, without someone (possible another machine) actually coding a precise plan for how that's going to work. That's sort of been the holy grail, but it's not very realistic, from what we know about how real brains are designed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on February 26, 2018, 06:53:53 pm
All the descriptions of neural networks I read online (and the limited implementations I created myself) have Boolean outputs, which are produced by weighting and summing all the inputs, feeding the sum through a non-linear sigmoid function (such as the logistic function), and then comparing the output of the function to a threshold. Not sure that is all that novel of an idea.....
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2018, 07:03:37 pm
All the descriptions of neural networks I read online (and the limited implementations I created myself) have Boolean outputs, which are produced by weighting and summing all the inputs, feeding the sum through a non-linear sigmoid function (such as the logistic function), and then comparing the output of the function to a threshold. Not sure that is all that novel of an idea.....

Well they're trying to simulate how real brain neurons work. Clearly, real neurons don't work exactly like the reference artificial ones, but to explain the difference you do in fact need to know exactly how real brain neurons work, which is a non-trivial question to be posed as idle chat on a forum, given that you'd probably get a Nobel Prize if you knew that.

A big part of it would be that back-propagation is completely fabricated tech which has zero to do with how real neurons learn. It also doesn't cover creation of new synapses which is clearly very important. Biological neural networks don't have set in stone structures, which are then "trained", they have ever-changing structures, and the changes in structure themselves are part of the directed learning process. So what we need are neural networks with dynamic connections that can grow new cells or prune connections as needed, in real-time.

So sure, the artificial neurons they're working with might well sum inputs x weights, and have a threshold etc. But the difference is in how the connections themselves change in response to stimuli.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on March 06, 2018, 04:46:57 pm
Mind reading killer robots when? (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2162862-ai-reconstructs-whatever-you-see-just-by-reading-a-brain-scan/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=SOC&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1520299186)

It's a paid article so I only got the first bit, but from that, an AI is capable of somewhat reconstructing an image a person is seeing by reading stuff from an fMRI scan.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on March 06, 2018, 05:45:23 pm
That reminds me, my coworker claimed that the 7th Fleet collisions happening in the Pacific Ocean are caused by Chinese directed energy weapons that are either: altering current in electronic systems on American warships OR mind controlling the sailors.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: nenjin on March 06, 2018, 07:55:33 pm
Shameless attempt to get at purchasing habits so they can advertise more bullshit to you. Who the fuck  honestly needs to be told their milk is a week old.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on March 06, 2018, 09:52:03 pm
Someone who can't read? IDEK
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on March 06, 2018, 11:57:02 pm
nenjin's frothing rage isn't confined by mere thread boundaries.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 07, 2018, 12:08:31 am
In recent news, (to re-rail the topic, even if this is just run of the mill, and not "Amazing, Such tech! Much wow!" like usually gets posted here) Google has announced that they are going to enable Google Lens on all android devices running google photos, and also on iOS.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/6/17086688/google-lens-android-photos-launch-roll-out

I can hardly wait for the false positives about sheep in fields that are totally devoid of sheep.
https://slashdot.org/story/18/03/05/1720258/do-neural-nets-dream-of-electric-sheep

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on March 07, 2018, 03:20:00 am
Frackin' toasters! (https://uproxx.com/technology/google-neural-networks-tricked-by-sticker-toaster/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 07, 2018, 04:24:38 am
"-raising concerns about self-driving cars"
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/self_driving_issues.png)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 07, 2018, 04:29:25 am
Those crazy dutch would like to remind us that for a mere 400,000$, you too can own your own flying car.
https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/13/pal-v-begins-pre-sales-of-its-flying-car-starting-at-400000/

(Old article, posted because item shown on nightly news)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 07, 2018, 04:48:55 am
Now, ask yourself when you'd ever actually need a car that can turn into a weak helicopter if you find enough space to take off.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 07, 2018, 06:47:32 am
Microsoft announces feature nobody wants.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/7/17089850/microsoft-windows-10-s-mode-changes-2019

Place your bets-- place your bets.  According to Verge, MS intends this for corporations, schools, and other "lockdown preferred" environments, but how much do you want to bet that it will be insanely pervasive in the tablet and cloudbook space, and that it will be the bane of everyone's existence except microsoft?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on March 07, 2018, 06:54:28 am
I mean i could name at least someone who is not a murderer, but could easily become a Luddite terrorist.

... ludo-terrorism?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: nenjin on March 07, 2018, 07:01:59 am
nenjin's frothing rage isn't confined by mere thread boundaries.

My cup overfloweth.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 19, 2018, 04:46:12 pm
A self-driving car from Uber Technologies hit a pedestrian crossing the street in Phoenix, Arizona. The woman died in hospital somewhat later.
According to the police, the car was driving in autonomous mode at the time of the accident, with a human test driver present behind the wheel.
For now, Uber Technologies has put all of it's programs for self-driving cars in the US and Canada on hold.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on March 19, 2018, 05:36:16 pm
Ah yes. The Bridget Driscoll effect.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 19, 2018, 06:47:49 pm
Alright, failed once. Let's not, I dunno, try to learn from this? Improve the design?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 19, 2018, 06:54:44 pm
People aught to start instead hitting traditional car makers with lawsuits over deaths that could have been prevented by putting an AI in charge. :p
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: PTTG?? on March 20, 2018, 12:44:09 am
How do we know that the car wasn't trying to save more lives in a trolley-question-style philosophical dilemma?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 20, 2018, 12:58:00 am
Given the fact that there was an individual behind the wheel, I'm betting that their cars are in the "let's just try not to hit stuff" phase rather than making any weighted decisions about what to hit and what not to hit.

Apparently having someone behind the wheel wasn't enough to stop the car in case there was something wrong this time.

Not sure how feaseable, but maybe one way to test is to stick the sensors and stuff onto a car, but run it in simulation mode and not have it control the car while the driver does their thing. Seems like one way to test it out without risking other peoples lives too much. If it fails, then at least it won't drive over the pedestrian.

Though yeah, I'd agree perhaps slowing down the progress or at least more controlled testing.

The only other way to absolutely guard against pedestrian hits is to completely separate the road space from the walking space, but that'd require a complete redesign of our cities.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 20, 2018, 05:33:21 am
Developing self-walking pedestrians before developing the cars might work
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on March 20, 2018, 08:40:12 am
Are we sure the person in the car actually attempted to stop the car, for all I know they were asleep...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 20, 2018, 09:06:47 am
A good question would be, would a human driver in the same conditions have made the same mistakes and hit the pedestrian? If the pedestrian suddenly started jaywalking from behind a parked car or something, you can't really say the accident happened because the car wasn't driven by a human. On the other hand, if the pedestrian was visible from literally a mile away, wearing a hi-vis vest and crossing the street on a green light with a red light for the car lane...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on March 20, 2018, 09:39:41 am
The most I've heard about it (mere snippets) was that it was a non-crosswalk crossing, i.e. no pedestrian right-of-way. Now, jaywalking may be akin to a capital crime, over there, but it does leave unsaid (in anything I've glanced at, though it's surely noted somewhere) how the victim/offender got within the 'anticipation zone' without already being fully-enough anticipated.

It could go from full on suicide-dash, through extremely unpredictable change of direction, via mere carelessness and over onto a mere excusable inattention that unfortunately clashed with the car's undiagnosed blindspot (visual, like turning into a side-road with cars parked all round the corner, or computational in that there was overconfidence about 'missing' LIDAR responses). When I get time, I may go seek answers to resolve my so far hypothetical scenarios, but I know that greater minds than I (including, but not limited to, ones closer to the incident in legal ways) are already doing this and I doubt I could add much more to their insights.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 20, 2018, 01:20:19 pm
Sounds like the testing method I mentioned above might actually help them as it deals with unpredictable situations while in simulation mode.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Zangi on March 20, 2018, 01:46:07 pm
Driverless car kills its first pedestrian.
Humans: "Oh no!  I'm gonna jump to conclusions and say driverless cars are not as safe as human drivers!"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on March 20, 2018, 01:51:49 pm
So guys. The Zuckerberg/Chris Wylie thing.

Link (https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/17/data-war-whistleblower-christopher-wylie-faceook-nix-bannon-trump)

Summary:
Essentially social media information has allegedly been sold to paramilitary information warfare companies so that they can hyper-target demographics in order to sway elections.

Not sure it has its own thread but hey. Brave New Eighty-Four?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 20, 2018, 02:27:48 pm
No, more

"You mean giving my personal information to a soulless entity is a BAD IDEA?!"

Here's your sign.  Dont use facebook. Dont use social media. 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on March 20, 2018, 02:53:22 pm
This is more the people not being able to keep up with the consequences of the technology. Facebook didn't add Likes and the like to be used as propaganda tools, they were added to be a neat little thing to make people use the service and feel more involved. They didn't allow apps to use their APIs to capture and analyse user data, they did it to let businesses add extra functionality to their platform without needing to invest the development time themselves.

I mean, you think that quiet corner cafe don't keep at least track of which tables are used? Which type of person buys from them? What type of coffee is more popular? Of course they do, and all the modern analytics are just extensions of that but at finer detail, because computers allow for that kind of granularity and because that kind of granularity is needed to keep on top of a large complex IT system. Because in order to effectively maintain a system, you need to keep track of how it's used.

Every development house I've ever worked for has had an analytics database of how their system is being used, what APIs are being called and what the performance is. And if they don't when I get there, they will have by the time I've left.

Really the 3rd party businesses accessing the API and abusing the data...really, the idea is basically the same as the German spy sat in a British Cafe in WW2, listening to the chat around them and reporting back the mood of the country from that chatter and anything else they overhear. The only difference here is the scale has grown.

And I can't help but think that blaming Facebook is like blaming the Cafe. Sure, they should do what they can to protect that data and stop it being gathered, but...well, if you flat-out forbid that gathering analytics then everything on the internet falls down. Google, Facebook, this very fucking forum. Everything.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 20, 2018, 02:57:26 pm
No, the Like! button was offered by FaceBook as a means of increasing user impressions, to increase value to their advertising partners.

Site builders gave Facebook what they wanted, by using the Like! button for the purposes you mentioned.  The purpose of the like button was never to serve that community function. It was to collect the data from more users than had signed up for their service, and for no other purpose.  If it did not provide that function, Facebook would never have offered it.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on March 20, 2018, 02:59:41 pm
No, the Like! button was offered by FaceBook as a means of increasing user impressions, to increase value to their advertising partners.

If you want people to use your system, user engagement is key. If you want to fund your system, you need people using it and ads to drive money into the system. If you want to sell ads effectively on the internet, where nearly every type of person imaginable uses it, you need to target those ads. That's true for physical stores that have advertisements in the windows, as much as it is websites.

This isn't some vast cackling conspiracy to trick people into buying things, it's how businesses have operated since before the internet. All that changed is the scale.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 20, 2018, 03:00:27 pm
The main difference from a cafe and facebook is that you don't typically shout your most personal details at the top of your lungs and that the Cambridge Analytics thing was using peoples data without permission. I mean, if you really wanted privacy for something, you wouldn't go to a cafe.

Seems to me like it's more a consequence of lack of oversight on data collection and usage of that data.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 20, 2018, 03:02:25 pm
Another difference is that you can go to a different cafe, and not be in the same database.

Facebook's tools are ubiquitous to site builders, who have standardized on the platform.  It is nearly impossible to not send Facebook data without actively sabotaging their script execution, and even then they can collect data on your unique pattern of service disruption.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on March 20, 2018, 03:03:11 pm
The main difference from a cafe and facebook is that you don't typically shout your most personal details at the top of your lungs.

Replace cafe with pub then. People definitely do that there.

Yeah, there is supposed to be oversight over how the APIs are used. People have to explicitly confirm what they want to allow, for example. GDPR is addressing these things, but it's a lot of work to implement that kind of thing and even then, people are dumb and so will agree to anything if it's put in from of them as a "Yes" or "No" box.

Like I said, the scale has changed. Things have centralised. Repeating the work someone else has done is a waste of time, of course businesses are going to now do that whenever possible. Hence why a few tools become common underpinnings for the whole stack.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 20, 2018, 03:04:00 pm
No, the Like! button was offered by FaceBook as a means of increasing user impressions, to increase value to their advertising partners.

If you want people to use your system, user engagement is key. If you want to fund your system, you need people using it and ads to drive money into the system. If you want to sell ads effectively on the internet, where nearly every type of person imaginable uses it, you need to target those ads.

Using the data themselves and keeping it safe is one thing, knowingly or unknowingly letting some third party abuse it is another.

Using big data and metadata like the way Cambridge Analytics did it (except in a non-shady way) is going to be used as a source of information for campaigns whether we like it or not. Again, it seems like a lack of oversight and our laws and regulations not keeping up with technology.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on March 20, 2018, 03:07:47 pm
If you look at what they did to get the data, they:
1) Released quiz that required user data access.
2) People used that quiz, giving the company access to the user data that the user explicitly have them permission to access.
3) Copied and kept that data after they accessed it and did future analytics based on it for non-academic purposes.

Only of those things broke both the rules and spirit of the rules as laid out by data protection regulations (at least the ones in Europe).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 20, 2018, 03:10:56 pm
I dont buy it.

Numerous attempts to offer users a proactive "No, I dont want you to use my data for anything motherfucker." voice have always been ignored or defeated by these agents. Remember the "Do not track" flag?  yeah.  That.

They could instead offer a nice little message that says "Hey, we need to sell that data to run the site bro."  or the API could just disable all the fancy features the site designer intended for community integration when that message is sent by the client-- but no.

gotta circumvent, and get and use it despite the clear intent of the user.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on March 20, 2018, 03:14:52 pm
Because filtering out everything is literally impossible. I mean, you can "do not track" and not store information directly tied to a user, and GDPR means they legally have to make you opt-in to that kind of thing. But general 'a visit at /X/Y/Z at 12:05" is literally impossible not to capture somewhere on your server.

Even if you aren't tracking who is doing the views, the only situation where you will not have any data about what views are happening in the system is if there are no views happening.

And of course passing a law doesn't change shit if the person doing it doesn't care about following that law, except giving a legal course after the damage is already done.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 20, 2018, 03:16:23 pm
What can be legislated though is what they do with it and possibly how it's accquired. The scandal here is that Cambridge Analytics mined the data without Facebook even knowing they were doing it, I think. Plus the fact that they're getting a huge PR hit over this.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on March 20, 2018, 03:23:36 pm
What can be legislated though is what they do with it and possibly how it's acquired.

And it already is legislated, at least in Europe. GDPR came into force recently, and that's an evolution of previous legislation. Dunno if America has an equivalent, or how strict it is. And at the end of the day, you can't legislate around stupidity. If people aren't checking what they're giving permission over, there's really not much you can do except educate people.

And anonymised collection of data is basically a requirement for computers to function since every webserver everywhere logs out "GET /sfm/index.php 2018-03-20 ..." somewhere, it's needed for diagnosing issues with the server and whatnot, so just outright banning would immediately result in the switching off of the entire internet.

The scandal here is that Cambridge Analytics mined the data without Facebook even knowing they were doing it, I think.

The issue is there's not a lot a provider can do to stop a 3rd party keeping a hold of data after the fact, since that data has to hit some of their code/servers at some point for them to...ya know, use it for whatever the thing they're supposed to be providing is. You can make doing so not allowed, but they were allegedly entrapping people with Ukrainian prostitutes so I can't imagine it being illegal isn't much of a deterrent.

The inherent problem with computers is that basically anything a 'bad guy' uses is just an alternative application of something needed for the 'good guys'. Encrypted mobile devices keep you safe if your phone is stolen, and if you are a terrorist plotting a bombing. Banning something to stop the one will hurt the other.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on March 20, 2018, 03:23:52 pm
I mean personally I can see how this is just the way of the future, better get used to it.
A very thick end of the unlikely wedge is just good ol’ “managed democracy”

Imagine the little popup on your computer which says
Quote
Hello!
Elections for [20XX] have just been processed.
Assessment of your digital footprint has been added to the demographics of your Bloc, and a suitable government has been assembled in regards to the majority sentiment.

The current government shares your views on:
Defense Spending, [Minority issue A], Immigration, [Minority issue B]

The current government does not share your views on:
Big business spending, [Minority issue C], Tax policy

Keep voting with your clicks, and we will see you next year!

Eager to pass the time? Try this video on where government taxes are assigned, and why they’re so important!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 20, 2018, 03:29:05 pm
Without public exhibition of the analytics code, and routine auditing by 3rd parties, this sounds ripe for flagrant abuse.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on March 20, 2018, 03:32:44 pm
Without public exhibition of the analytics code, and routine auditing by 3rd parties, this sounds ripe for flagrant abuse.
You say that like either of those things would help
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 20, 2018, 03:37:23 pm
It's not a magic bullet, no. (I am well aware of heartbleed, and how it was a problem in a FOSS product) It is certainly better than the alternative though, which is zero transparency at all, and zero ability to look into a suspect election result.

I would also like diagnostic data on my fingerprint as a "Show me the details!" button, where it expands the popup with some juicy data about what they collected, and how they interpreted it.

But pleebs dont need that. You should trust big brother citizen. He loves you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on March 20, 2018, 03:47:00 pm
Google let you do that, at least: https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity

In Europe, GDPR means you legally can request all data about you be deleted, although it's...unclear how they want that to work with physical tape back-ups and the like (it probably means the death for them going forward).

But you're thinking in terms of "data attached to you", not "data gathered that involves activity you did". The kind of analytics being done doesn't need people, just behaviours. Just volumes of traffic and graphs to other traffic by volume and the like.

There isn't always a bit of data that "john johnson views carpentry and child rearing, how do we get him to vote Republican?" set of data, it's "500,000 people visited the news article on child endangerment, originating from the news article on a monkey that escaped from a zoo, and 25% of them came the Democrat website. That's a 250% increase over the visitors from the news article on care homes for the elderly from the Republican Website. What conclusions can we learn from this and how can push news in such a way that we get those Democrat website visits to vote republican?".

Again, lots of this kind of data is already gathered in an anonymised form where it's got no direct connection back to you (though you may be inferrable from the data).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 20, 2018, 05:50:13 pm
If their services suck, then I wonder how effective they actually were, given how much it was touted.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 20, 2018, 05:57:53 pm
They also just sacked their own CEO over the controversial videos, so, they have their own problems to deal with evidently.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on March 22, 2018, 06:13:16 am
Footage of the Uber accident has been released: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43497364

Honestly, the time from her appearing out of the darkness to impact is so small that I'm doubtful a human could have avoided the accident either.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on March 22, 2018, 08:24:08 am
That’s terrifically murky.
I’m still a huge advocate for self-driving cars- but I wouldn’t be surprised if Uber decided to bump the gamma down before releasing it
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2018, 10:59:39 pm
Got another one that is hard to decide where it should be posted.

https://ehtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/Belpoggi-Heart-and-Brain-Tumors-Base-Station-2018.pdf

Nutshell:  Very large animal model lifetime study of environmental level cellphone radiation exposure shows clear indication of increased rates of cancer presentation in rat model.

Several cellular companies are sure to fight this hard. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 22, 2018, 11:14:25 pm
Somewhat further detail: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/22/self-driving-car-uber-death-woman-failure-fatal-crash-arizona

Apparently the LIDAR that was supposed to detect an obstacle didn't even work at all and they're also calling it a complete failure of Ubers safety procedures.

It also sounds like the woman paid the price for Arizona promising fewer regulations, as callous as that sounds. The whole thing should be treated the same way as the space industry, if you even start cutting corners for profit over safety, people are liable to get people killed or even have an expensive rocket explode. Theres a reason why NASA developed such a safety conscious culture.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 22, 2018, 11:15:38 pm
Theres a reason why NASA developed such a safety conscious culture.

Yes there is. His name is Gene Kranz.
We tend to forget how NASA changed after Jan.27 1967, or rather what it was like before, but there were a lot of ways they could have responded. Due credit needs to be given to the people who instituted that cultural shift before we act like it was at all inevitable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2018, 11:19:25 pm
It is often overlooked, the impact people who have enough nerve to tell the people with the purse-strings that they are wrong, and need to pay the extra money, in the face of immense financial and political football playing.

This is something sorely lacking today, to be sure.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2018, 11:30:47 pm
Not involved with the study, cannot give an answer.

I just wanted to share that it was published.  There are other issues with the study as well, such as reputation of the group who performed it, and it being hawked by one of the "RADIATION BAAAD! IT GIVE ME ALLERGIES! *Slackjaw drooling*" type hyperbole types that rails on and on and on about how even minor exposure to radio waves causes them unbearble suffering and shit.

Still, they bothered, and even if it is pure hooey (which I find likely), it is still going to cause trouble for cellphone operators, as now they have to invest in counter research to refute the study on its findings through replication.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2018, 11:56:31 pm
Most of the research and counter-research has focused on high intensity cellphone radiation exposure, rather than environmental levels. (Probably because the people doing the studies know that this radiation does not strongly react with water or tissue cultures [because if it did, it would attenuate quickly, and be useless for long distance communication...], and so need strong doses to get significant signals....)

That means those already invested counter-studies are not good fits to refute, as a small but significant signal for a specific kind of cancer could actually exist that was not found in prior studies, and the lifetime animal model study at lower concentration needs to be replicated to confirm or deny finding.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on March 24, 2018, 09:00:30 am
Yeah fun with statistics - for instance, have they actually kept all other factors constant (or equally distributed) between their sample groups?  Here's a fun one - do they routinely move their sample population around the lab so that, on average, each specimen spends the same amount of time in the same physical location?  Have they accounted for possible differences in food, water, etc. being from different batches?  Was the HVAC running the same rate throughout the entire test?  Do they have members of each population living in the same cells (heterogeneous residence) or do they segregate them by cage?

Trying to obtain a valid control is really really difficult when looking at decimal-dust kind of phenomena.  Either that or you have to track way more variables than most people track during such studies.  Basically - it's very difficult to remove bias from studies of this type, because there are almost always unconsidered (or even intentionally ignored) factors.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on March 24, 2018, 11:53:10 am
Microsoft announces feature nobody wants.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/7/17089850/microsoft-windows-10-s-mode-changes-2019

Place your bets-- place your bets.  According to Verge, MS intends this for corporations, schools, and other "lockdown preferred" environments, but how much do you want to bet that it will be insanely pervasive in the tablet and cloudbook space, and that it will be the bane of everyone's existence except microsoft?
Wait, it can't possibly be...
Quote
The new S Mode will lock down any copy of Windows 10 so it can only run apps from the Microsoft Store
Ok I'm so glad I've kept my Windows 7 and not got into this "free" Windows 10 cheese mousetrap scheme.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 24, 2018, 11:58:26 am
Microsoft announces feature nobody wants.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/7/17089850/microsoft-windows-10-s-mode-changes-2019

Place your bets-- place your bets.  According to Verge, MS intends this for corporations, schools, and other "lockdown preferred" environments, but how much do you want to bet that it will be insanely pervasive in the tablet and cloudbook space, and that it will be the bane of everyone's existence except microsoft?
Wait, it can't possibly be...
Quote
The new S Mode will lock down any copy of Windows 10 so it can only run apps from the Microsoft Store
Ok I'm so glad I've kept my Windows 7 and not got into this "free" Windows 10 cheese mousetrap scheme.

Glad I'm still using Windows 8.1
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 24, 2018, 04:06:39 pm
Quote
The new S Mode will lock down any copy of Windows 10 so it can only run apps from the Microsoft Store
What does that even mean? What is considered an 'app'?
I thought apps were something on a mobile phone, which I don't have anymore for nearly 8 years.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 24, 2018, 04:14:28 pm
What is considered an 'app'?
An application. An executable plus any other files attached to it that form a whole. What we used to call (and I'd like to keep calling) programs and software. Windows 10 wants to be hip by calling everything an app, though I personally find that a rather unprofessional term.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 24, 2018, 04:22:57 pm
So does that mean that soon I won't be able to run Steam anymore on win10, or browse bay12 with Firefox?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 24, 2018, 04:30:22 pm
Only if you install the S Mode OS. Windows 10 has the optional feature to block programs not from the store, but it's disabled by default. S Mode makes it mandatory for "security". There's probably some business customer somewhere who has a use for it, but I don't think a regular consumer has any reason to install it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 24, 2018, 05:50:06 pm
Ah. I was already thinking that Microsoft was going to doom themselves out of the market if all non-windows store programs users can't run them anymore on their home OS.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on March 24, 2018, 05:57:57 pm
What exactly would those users do if that were the case? Switch to Linux? Buy Windows 7 again?

MS has a pretty strong stranglehold on the home PC OS market, and I really doubt that's gonna change anytime soon, mostly because as the biggest fish in the pond most devs don't really consider developing for other systems, it's just not worth the dev time and cost.

Like, I really hate the direction they're taking this stuff, and would love nothing more than to have Win 7 again, but I just don't have any driver support for anything but Win10 on my current laptop, and even if I did, a lot of the programs I use are only on Windows platforms (or iOS, but that's exchanging an OS with a shitty dev direction with one that's arrived at the shitty dev destination), so it's not like there's much choice involved :V
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 24, 2018, 06:41:43 pm
If Microsoft suddenly locked all their PCs to only run apps from the shitty windows store, it would A) be probbably days before someone found a way to crack that restriction B) would have tech users up in arms, generate a massive amount of bad press and probbably tank their share price a la Facebook losing 57 billion of value over privacy revaluations, and C) a major portion ofl non-casual users probbably would switch to some of the Linux based OSes,because... that’s what people do if you make it physically impossible to do what you use a computer for. Windows is the OS of choice largely due to convenience, and if they suddenly decide to massively inconvenience their entire user base and refuse to backtrack they’re going to lose market share, simple as that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on March 24, 2018, 07:00:49 pm
I'd just like to add that I've had significant success switching older, casual computer users to Linux Mint already just based on the shitty things Microsoft has already done in the past few versions to annoy them. It's definitely possible.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 24, 2018, 07:01:57 pm
Linux, or Mac.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 24, 2018, 09:12:43 pm
If Microsoft suddenly locked all their PCs to only run apps from the shitty windows store

That's not what they're talking about doing, though. They're just stopping the parallel development of 10 S so that 10 S machines are going to run Windows 10 proper in S mode. The danger here is more that people are going to buy S-locked devices without realizing it (or non-S locked tablets will stop being readily available) than that Microsoft is going to lock all PCs in an update.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 24, 2018, 11:50:44 pm
Yeah, I've been thinking about moving to Linux for my next PC. Not gone with my laptop, but it had Win10 on already, AND since it's for uni work, I'd rather not wrangle with potential issues when I'm trying to avoid stressing out.
Dual-boot Windows and Linux. No need to wait for another computer.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on March 25, 2018, 04:27:30 am
Yeah, I've been thinking about moving to Linux for my next PC. Not gone with my laptop, but it had Win10 on already, AND since it's for uni work, I'd rather not wrangle with potential issues when I'm trying to avoid stressing out.

You'd be surprised, at this point the only piece of software I'm really missing is the office suite (which I feel is way superior to libre office), so I jsut do my stuff on lbre office and then boot windows to fix the layout.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on March 28, 2018, 12:48:23 pm
China's Heavenly Palace (Tiangong 1) will come crashing down to Earth.

Ever since the Chinese lost control of it's space station, it has slowly started spiraling down to Earth.
When in january 2017 it was still at 470km altitude, last wednesday it had come down to 196km, due to air friction (minute, at those altitudes, but still present) decelerating it's orbit.

The coming days it will decelerate faster and faster, as air friction increases, closer to Earth,
According to Joint Space Operations Centre, a US military organistation, it will come down to Earth as a big fireball coming sunday, with an error margin of one day.

Because of it's relatively small size (9m) compared to it's mass (well over 8 tons), it is expected that it will not completely burn up on re-entry.
It is expected that glowing hot fragments up to 100kg wil impact Earth.

When this occurs over inhabited areas, considerable damage or even loss of life can be expected.
Space experts however say that the chance of that happening is pretty small. It is more likely that fragments will hit the ocean, or uninhabited areas.

Over here (Netherlands), we're not worried. We're too far north on the planet. Mediterannean countries in Europe could get hit though.

Exact estimates of the impact area are as of yet too hard. Because the space station spins around it's axis roughly every 2 minutes, the air friction varies a lot, making it too hard to accurately predict trajectory.
More accurate predictions will likely follow when impact time draws closer.

It's not uncommon for space craft to crash down unto Earth, the Chinese most definitly aren't the first.
Just last sunday, Italians could watch  a Russian Sojoez rocket burn up in the atmosphere. No wreckage was reported to impact anywhere though, it is presumed to have fully burned up.
Sometimes wreckage hits land: In 1979, parts of the US Skylab crashed down in Australia, after an uncontrolled re-entry.
NASA was fined by the Australian authorities for illagaly dumping waste. NASA has never paid the 400 dollar fine.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on March 28, 2018, 12:57:17 pm
That's gotta be a sucky Easter
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 29, 2018, 09:11:33 pm
In 1979, parts of the US Skylab crashed down in Australia, after an uncontrolled re-entry.
NASA was fined by the Australian authorities for illagaly dumping waste. NASA has never paid the 400 dollar fine.
It's hilarious that someone actually took the time to write out and submit the paperwork for that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Pancakes on March 29, 2018, 09:44:27 pm
Hey, kangaroos like being hit by obscure space debris as much as anyone else. Which means they don't think about it as much as illegal dumping, evidently.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 01, 2018, 06:58:34 am
Theres a reason why NASA developed such a safety conscious culture.

Yes there is. His name is Gene Kranz.
We tend to forget how NASA changed after Jan.27 1967, or rather what it was like before, but there were a lot of ways they could have responded. Due credit needs to be given to the people who instituted that cultural shift before we act like it was at all inevitable.
*cough*anybodyrememberwatchingchallengerblowup?*cough*

Sorry, had a somewhat traumatic childhood memory stuck in my throat (from "I'm six, think I wanna work on rockets" to "I'm six and wondering if people can just like study math and physics" in... well, the time it takes a shuttle to unexpectedly disassemble itself mid-flight on tv) but yeah, I'd be much happier with NASA throwing their entire launch development/maintenance/etc portion of the budget at shit like the Webb and just let Musk hurl it into space.

As for the facebook and data discussion?

Nobody brought up how the individually curated and focused version of the internet people get through shit like facebook is presented as though everyone is seeing the same sites as any other user, you know, like the whole amazing thing the internet did was giving anybody the ability to take whatever they're looking at on their computer and share it with anybody who has the address.

When YOUR version of a page is totally different from MY version of a page, that's usually called a bug, isn't it?

The default assumption being--outside of assholes like me forcing a personal color scheme/font/disabling damn near everything via ublock //and// umatrix which is way overkill but fuck vanilla internet in the ass--if user A sends user B a link to page A, user B sees page A, not page A.customUserBcontentPlusAds.v.3.789003 or some shit.

Knowingly doing this to your users while letting them continue thinking they're seeing the same site everyone else does is... uh... misleading... dishonest... creepy... just wrong feeling in general, isn't it?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on April 01, 2018, 10:19:45 am
Sometimes wreckage hits land: In 1979, parts of the US Skylab crashed down in Australia, after an uncontrolled re-entry.
NASA was fined by the Australian authorities for illagaly dumping waste. NASA has never paid the 400 dollar fine.

Lol....

Theres a reason why NASA developed such a safety conscious culture.

Yes there is. His name is Gene Kranz.
We tend to forget how NASA changed after Jan.27 1967, or rather what it was like before, but there were a lot of ways they could have responded. Due credit needs to be given to the people who instituted that cultural shift before we act like it was at all inevitable.
*cough*anybodyrememberwatchingchallengerblowup?*cough*

I was 2 1/2 at the time, so, no, I don't remember it. Seen videos of it later though, obviously.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 01, 2018, 12:17:00 pm
Theres a reason why NASA developed such a safety conscious culture.

Yes there is. His name is Gene Kranz.
We tend to forget how NASA changed after Jan.27 1967, or rather what it was like before, but there were a lot of ways they could have responded. Due credit needs to be given to the people who instituted that cultural shift before we act like it was at all inevitable.
*cough*anybodyrememberwatchingchallengerblowup?*cough*

Sorry, had a somewhat traumatic childhood memory stuck in my throat (from "I'm six, think I wanna work on rockets" to "I'm six and wondering if people can just like study math and physics" in... well, the time it takes a shuttle to unexpectedly disassemble itself mid-flight on tv) but yeah, I'd be much happier with NASA throwing their entire launch development/maintenance/etc portion of the budget at shit like the Webb and just let Musk hurl it into space.

It is worth bearing two things in mind about Challenger and Columbia:
1. The design of the STS was badly mangled by Congress, with conditions imposed that had more to do with which districts would see more jobs than the resultant spacecraft's suitability for its intended purpose.
2. The two failed missions were a lot more visible to the outside than the 133 occasions on which, to put it more simply than it deserves, it fulfilled its most basic function.

Also, the STS has a better record than the Falcon family at the moment. 98.4% success vs 96.2%.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 01, 2018, 05:41:55 pm
Oh, I know all about the fuckupfest involved in "hey, know what we need, a spacecraft designed by committee!" particularly when that involves congresscritters. I've also kept track of if not watched most of those launches.

Developing a new reusable rocket and being at 50/52 is pretty good either way, let's see another 80 and check if it is close to the shuttle record?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 02, 2018, 03:41:39 am
The heavenly palace has exploded over the Pacific. Hawaii has been destroyed. It looks like it mostly burned up in the atmosphere, no debris hitting ground has been reported.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 02, 2018, 04:53:25 am
The heavenly palace has exploded over the Pacific. Hawaii has been destroyed. It looks like it mostly burned up in the atmosphere, no debris hitting ground has been reported.
And Sandra Bullock is now stranded in space...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 02, 2018, 04:56:50 am
AGAIN?!?!?

Fuck, guess we're in for more heavy breathing...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 02, 2018, 05:29:46 am
If only George Clooney hadn't wasted all that ECS fuel like a douchebag....
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 02, 2018, 06:44:08 am
Fuck, guess we're in for more heavy breathing...
Massive breathing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 03, 2018, 12:55:33 am
Some researchers developed a generation algorithm that can make anything look like anything else to current-gen vision AI. While this has been done before, the breakthrough is that this works in 3D. Previous-gen adversarial generation failed to fool the AIs if the "trick" image was rotated, scaled, blurred etc, but the new technique can fool the AIs from any angle you like.

http://www.labsix.org/physical-objects-that-fool-neural-nets/

The example here is that they 3D printed a turtle, and by giving it the right markings, they can fool the vision AI that it's anything you like. The example tricks the AI to think the 3D turtle is a rifle. Now, it doesn't take a lot of extrapolation to realize that you could also make guns that the AI thinks are something innocent.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on April 03, 2018, 01:04:07 am
Which is probably a good excuse to let humans decide what is or isn't a rifle for now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 03, 2018, 05:47:36 am
I think I've seen the "everything made to look like a toaster" sticker (https://gizmodo.com/this-simple-sticker-can-trick-neural-networks-into-thin-1821735479) mentioned before, here, and it looks like that (though I didn't follow them when I read it last time) there are links to the same rifle-turtle/baseball-espresso things.

And this is how we manage to battle the machines in the future of Skynet! That and install Dwarf Fortress on the system, to keep the system busy and leave us to destroy ourselves in person.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on April 03, 2018, 03:30:39 pm
Now I want to see an adversarial technique that lets you paint things so that humans see them as the wrong thing.
"This, officer? Oh it's just a turtle, as you can see."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 03, 2018, 03:41:56 pm
Now I want to see an adversarial technique that lets you paint things so that humans see them as the wrong thing.
"This, officer? Oh it's just a turtle, as you can see."

That would be known as camouflage.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on April 03, 2018, 04:22:39 pm
Yes, but current camouflage doesn't exploit subtle inaccuracies in human perception in order to make them believe something patently false.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 03, 2018, 04:40:22 pm
Yes, but current camouflage doesn't exploit subtle inaccuracies in human perception in order to make them believe something patently false.

How do you know that is true a true statement though? Isn't that what camouflage does? We just don't see our own optical illusions as "subtle inaccuracies" in that sense, but isn't that a matter of perspective?

Things that fool current classifier AIs don't fool us so we see our vision as superior to theirs, however, if we make a technological system that sees right through camouflage that can fool any human, aren't we really in the same position then? Sure, our vision systems are much more complex and developed than e.g. Google's photo classifier, but that doesn't mean adversarial examples don't exist for humans - e.g. images that fool human vision but wouldn't fool some hypothetical more advanced vision system.

Another thing to remember here is that adversarial example generation techniques are a core part of modern NN vision training. Having a replicable algorithm that fools the current generation of vision systems means that the technology will advance faster.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on April 03, 2018, 06:28:59 pm
That is, you can train a neural network over an infinite sample of these fluke cases, and you will still have an infinite number of adversarial cases where it will fail.
There is, in fact, only a finite (though incredibly large) number of possible adversarial cases to begin with. That said, it's impossible for any realistically feasible algorithm to achieve perfect classification (including human brains) at useful resolutions; this isn't a flaw in the algorithms as such, but a flaw in the thing we're trying to do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 03, 2018, 09:36:47 pm
What has me concerned, however, is to what degree these adversarial cases can be "learned away." It's my opinion that these things aren't just showing issues with the precise tuning of the weights involved in the neural network, but the very architecture of the algorithm in play. That is, you can train a neural network over an infinite sample of these fluke cases, and you will still have an infinite number of adversarial cases where it will fail.

but there are also an equally infinite variety of camouflage patterns that would fool a human. So, in a theoretical sense there can be infinite patterns which fool the system, but that doesn't mean that the system is limited to be worse than humans.

e.g. say you keep feeding adversarial patterns into an NN, growing it larger and larger as you go to deal with all edge cases. Is there any reason to think it's going to plateau at any particular level of ability, and that that level of ability is necessarily worse than a human? Perhaps there is such a theoretical plateau, but the plateau is above the level of human ability. however, there's no theoretical reason to think the plateau exists, nor is there any reason to think it's in any way related to human vision ability.

So, yep, you can keep feeding adversarial examples into a system, and there will always be more adversarial examples you can generate, ad inifinitum. But that doesn't mean that the vision system's abilities are static or limited to be worse than humans, because we lack any real theoretical reason for that: the faulty premise is that humans don't have "adversarial examples", when we clearly do. They're just not perceptible to us because that is the very nature of adversarial examples, so we don't realize we have them.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 04, 2018, 05:35:24 am
*cough*
https://cvdazzle.com/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Doomblade187 on April 04, 2018, 05:39:02 am
*cough*
https://cvdazzle.com/
Forgot about that, would actually wear some of these.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 04, 2018, 08:50:48 am
I wear patterned gym clothes, to give the illusion that I'm moving.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 05, 2018, 10:36:48 pm
You fucking win everything for that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 05, 2018, 10:39:29 pm
I wear patterned gym clothes, to give the illusion that I'm moving.
The messiah has returned
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 09, 2018, 06:33:27 pm
Huh, this actually looks promising for some reason: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/04/the-galaxy-s9s-dex-pad-launches-may-13-for-99-99/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on April 10, 2018, 12:54:09 am
Huh, this actually looks promising for some reason: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/04/the-galaxy-s9s-dex-pad-launches-may-13-for-99-99/
Okay now that is a cool idea. Mobile devices are becoming more and more similar to desktop PCs, so this just seems like a logical next step.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 10, 2018, 01:19:48 am
The issue is how much is in the docking station, and how much is baked into the device.

This is not a terribly new idea.  Many "Old" (like REALLY REALLY old) docking stations for first generation laptops had actual ISA slots and stuff inside them, so that more powerful desktop grade hardware could be inside the docking station, cut down on weight and thickness of the device, as well as cutting down on power draw.

short trip down memory lane on docking hardware (https://www.pcmech.com/article/can-you-use-a-laptop-as-a-desktop/)

With a phone, you are limited more and more by what you can reasonably drive for 4 to 6 hours on a 3500mAh LiPO battery. Granted, ARM processors sip on the juice rather than gorging themselves like a gourmand, but the power draw is still a significant design consideration for these devices and the hardware they have inside them, along with total size and weight.

When you start trying to make these devices also be beefy enough to do desktop oriented tasks (which is the whole point of a dock like this), then you start throwing a vastly different set of needs around, and the underpowered hardware of the phone is going to be a problem. 

Now, it is possible that a great deal of fancy hardware could live inside the dock, attached by a lightning port or something. (Lightning has a high bandwidth and supports DMA, which means you could put lots of useful things on it, like a GPU, a hard disk controller, etc, and not bog down the CPU.) If they expose actual bus pins to the dock, the dock could contain an additional processor, and RAM as well.

I guess what I am saying is that rather than something completely new, I am having an intense feeling of deja-vu.  First generation laptops were so underpowered it was hilarious. Compared to an actual desktop system that you can get for about 300$, your cellphone looks like a computer from 20 years ago, just very small.

It will be interesting to see where this goes, but I see it as being a novelty, not a new paradigm, and see it as just a modern evolution of an old idea.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on April 10, 2018, 01:29:19 am
Why would the power drain be an issue? Presumably the dock would charge the phone, after all you already need a power supply for the monitor.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 10, 2018, 01:41:51 am
I meant promising compared to all the other times I've seen a phone dock trying to pretend it is a computer.

An S9 probably compares pretty well against whatever you're using, I've got ddr4 ram and a g4620 pentium and doubt I'm significantly far ahead of a flagship phone these days in regular day to day tasks.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 10, 2018, 01:44:45 am
The issue is having hardware in the phone. The hardware in the phone has to compete for space (See the *REAL* reason Apple removed the headphone jack), and so the maker is not going to put "dormant" hardware inside. The hardware that *IS* inside, is designed to run off the battery for 4 to 6 hours.

Clearer?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on April 10, 2018, 02:11:16 am
The issue is having hardware in the phone. The hardware in the phone has to compete for space (See the *REAL* reason Apple removed the headphone jack), and so the maker is not going to put "dormant" hardware inside. The hardware that *IS* inside, is designed to run off the battery for 4 to 6 hours.

Clearer?

Oh, yeah, that's clearer.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 10, 2018, 02:25:15 am
That's a load of crap, they dropped the jack to push sales of bluetooth headphones. It's a tiny component with no real gain packaging wise.

Most flagship phones run on a big.little setup with a nominal 8 core chip using 4 high and 4 low speed/draw processors, very rarely do they use all 8 simutaneously, favoring spikes with the high or sustained low use, so there is literally dormant hardware potential which is tuned to offer certain battery life profiles and certain heavy use performance.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 10, 2018, 02:34:01 am
The size of the port itself is indeed tiny.

However, remember that it requires an amplifier, and a DAC. (The DAC likely already exists, but is likely a cheaper/smaller component that only drives the phone's built in speakers and mic, and does not need heavy amplification that headphones would need. Remember, not everyone uses tiny little earbuds that have low voltage requirements.) Compare with bluetooth which has antenna co-existence with the wifi chip-- or with direct digital output via the data port on the bottom.

Further consider the problems with RF noise of driving higher voltage pulsed signals in an enclosed space, and how this can cause problems with other device electronics.

Also, consider that not all of those "Deactivated cores" are functional, in all likelihood. If your intended use case is to never turn those cores on, then there is no need to have them be functional. This means the fab run can have higher acceptance rates, as not all the cores need to be functioning, and they can be defective from the factory.  If all the cores needed to function, these chips would have to be discarded. This means cheaper phones using the defective chips (that work just fine in the phone).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 10, 2018, 05:50:44 am
Yet we have the S9 with a jack.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big.LITTLE
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 10, 2018, 05:56:35 am
Samnsung's development department != Apple's development department.

I am not saying it is impossible, just that Apple had reasons other than "Oh noes, how will we get people to buy our overpriced "ear-pons" and beats headphones that get lost, are over-priced, and sound like shit!?" for why it eliminated the headphone jack.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 10, 2018, 06:14:44 am
Yeah, lots of development teams gave reasons for eliminating them, yet almost every one were simultaneously launching usb type-c or bluetooth headphones, so fuck their excuses, it's a cash grab.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on April 10, 2018, 06:18:41 am
They had other reasons, the question is if they needed other reasons. :P
And it's Apple, so no they did not.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 10, 2018, 10:08:37 am
Not just apple, lots of teams did that, I think two weren't coincidentally launching usb type-c or bluetooth headphones? I follow fondleslab development as they're getting close to the point where I wouldn't mind one to play with.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on April 10, 2018, 10:10:18 am
Well, I mean, if you get rid of the jack, you'd better make sure there are other headphones available.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 10, 2018, 10:12:20 am
Oh there are, but like I said, none of the "we desperately needed more battery room" bullshit flies. Be honest: you wanted to sell some new bluetooth bullshit and knew people would keep using analog jacks if given the choice.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 10, 2018, 11:00:03 am
And if they're going to force Bluetooth on me, they better double the baseline battery-life, to compensate. (How much extra space does that take up in the device, just to stand still in practical terms?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Folly on April 11, 2018, 12:14:53 am
Windows just notified me that it had installed some photo app that was already busy scanning my hard drive and collecting albums from the pictures I had saved. A quick look at their store showed that I'm not the only one upset about this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Microsoft has become the Donald Trump of operating systems, forcing it's own people to pay for crap that makes no sense and nobody ever wanted.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 11, 2018, 01:45:35 am
*puts the case up on jacks*
*slides underneath it on a dolly*
*clanks around a bit*
*slides back out*
Awright mac, seems like ya got a nasty microcrap infestation goins on in the-ah, honestly I gotta go wash my hands aft-uh touchin' that shit, we can go burns tha fuck outta it around back if'n ya want?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 11, 2018, 01:56:29 am
Hell Joe, jus' pop a linnux thingmabob in'air an' blow at sheet away. Damn Microsarft outoupdatin' 'n sheet. Ain't got a lick o sense in em. Half da time, dey's pushin drivers as is half busted 'n sheet. Bluescreen'n 'n worse all o'er de damn place. Naow's deys pushin crapwar all o'er. Just put some'um in dere as what respects user privacy 'n sheet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 11, 2018, 02:40:50 am
At'll doo-et.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sergarr on April 12, 2018, 03:25:56 am
Windows just notified me that it had installed some photo app that was already busy scanning my hard drive and collecting albums from the pictures I had saved. A quick look at their store showed that I'm not the only one upset about this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Microsoft has become the Donald Trump of operating systems, forcing it's own people to pay for crap that makes no sense and nobody ever wanted.
Windows 10, I presume?

Free cheese...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 12, 2018, 03:27:30 am
Microsoft is just not hip, and is floundering about trying to #MeToo with #AppStore.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on April 12, 2018, 04:24:38 am
Microsoft is just not hip, and is floundering about trying to #MeToo with #AppStore.

Wut?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 12, 2018, 05:25:29 am
Microsoft is just not hip, and is floundering about trying to #MeToo with #AppStore.

Wut?

Too obscure?

#MeToo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_Too_movement) + Microsoft's cluelessness about how putting things into other things without permission is wrong + Apple's AppStore + Microsoft's futile desire to emulate it.

Slightly less obscure?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on April 12, 2018, 05:32:42 am
Ever since Bill Gates stopped being CEO of Microsoft it's been stuck in a battle between marketing people and the developers for what direction to take things. Balmer was full-on about marketing, which was horrible, whilst the new CEO seems to be trying to balance it a bit better.

As a result, the Microsoft development stack is actually quite pleasant to work with nowadays. They've decided to open source loads and and even to give really good support for using Microsoft's tools to build software for Linux of all things (.NET Core, Typescript, Docker support...), and are starting to pull marketing's fingers off the trigger somewhat, but occasionally the Balmer-era fuckery still slip through the cracks on the consumer side.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 12, 2018, 05:42:38 am
It really isn't that hard.

Dont install things behind people's back. System security updates are one thing--- dodgey drivers are totally another, and pushing dogfood user apps is flat out obscene and practically rape.  You know that antitrust thing you enjoyed in the past? This is the kind of shit that it was over. It's as if they are incapable of understanding it is something they are not allowed to do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on April 12, 2018, 05:49:35 am
It really isn't that hard.

I once worked at a company where one of the Sales people thought the difference between Goose and Geese was that Geese lay eggs. My expectations of people from that side of businesses are quite low as a result :)

Then again this is the same company where one of the Product Managers asked me if the Sun was bigger than the stars since it looks bigger, so maybe I shouldn't treat that as standard xD
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on April 12, 2018, 11:35:55 am
It really isn't that hard.

I once worked at a company where one of the Sales people thought the difference between Goose and Geese was that Geese lay eggs. My expectations of people from that side of businesses are quite low as a result :)

Then again this is the same company where one of the Product Managers asked me if the Sun was bigger than the stars since it looks bigger, so maybe I shouldn't treat that as standard xD
Well I guess technically you might need Geese to lay fertile eggs. Goose and Gander would be the proper terms though for male and female geese.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on April 12, 2018, 12:13:45 pm
And the Sun is technically bigger than some of the stars. I don't think either of them put that much thought into it. The Sun one did lead to everyone else in the room basically re-enacting a scene from Father Ted though (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXypyrutq_M). So that was fun.

You know, I say I shouldn't take my experience at that company as standard but then I remember that one of the salespeople at another place I worked asked "Are Catholics and Christians different religions?" so I'm starting to doubt that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 12, 2018, 12:27:55 pm
HR at a past company I worked for sent out a global email, during the run-up to one Christmas, reminding everybody that when considering sending seasonal cards out to clients (at least as all round the world as the company was) that any they do send must be non-secular. They meant secular/non-religious, of course, and had to hastily reglobally mail everyone to make that clear. ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 13, 2018, 01:21:36 am
You mean my Krampus cards I spent so much money and planning time on, CAN'T BE SENT!?  Oh, Come ON! :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on April 13, 2018, 11:17:52 am
You mean my Krampus cards I spent so much money and planning time on, CAN'T BE SENT!?  Oh, Come ON! :P
Rebrand Krampus as a cultural instead of religious character. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 13, 2018, 10:48:07 pm
Somehow I doubt US Human Resources will buy:
"These are for our Germanic and Scandinavian clients-- they should get a real hoot out of them!"

Especially since, well--- they feature Krampus doing what Krampus does best- kidnapping and eating horrible little children. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 14, 2018, 09:37:19 pm
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/11/8/16611710/vertical-farms

Quote
For as long as I can remember, people have been hyping vertical farming — growing crops indoors, using vertical space to intensify production.

Its virtues, relative to conventional agriculture, have long been clear. Indoors, the climate can be controlled year-round. Pests can be minimized, and with them pesticides. Water and nutrients can be applied in precise quantities. By going up rather than out, a vertical farm can produce more food per acre of land. And by siting close to an urban area, it can reduce long distribution chains, getting fresher food to customers’ tables, quicker.

Its drawbacks have become equally clear. They mainly come down to cost. Farming well requires deep know-how and expertise; it has proven extraordinarily difficult to expand vertical farms in a way that holds quality consistent while driving costs down. Optimizing production at a small scale is very different from doing so at a large scale. The landscape is littered with the corpses of vertical-farming startups that thought they could beat the odds (though several are still alive and kicking).

Now a young Silicon Valley startup called Plenty thinks it has cracked the code. It has enormous expansion plans and a bank account full of fresh investor funding, but most excitingly, it is building a 100,000 square foot vertical-farming warehouse in Kent, Washington, just outside of Seattle, your author’s home town. That farm is expected to be open and delivering produce locally by midyear, and is designed to produce 4.5 million pounds of greens annually. Your author, in keeping with coastal elitist stereotypes, is a fervent lover of greens.
...
Plenty grows plants on 20-foot vertical towers instead of the stacks of horizontal shelves used by most other vertical-farming companies. Plants jut horizontally from the towers, growing out of a substrate made primarily of recycled plastic bottles (there’s no soil involved). Water and nutrients are fed in from the top of the tower and dispersed by gravity (rather than pumps, which saves money). All water, including from condensation, is collected and recycled.
...
Bottom line: Relative to conventional agriculture, Plenty says that it can get as much as 350 times the produce out of a given acre of land, using 1 percent as much water. “It is the most efficient [form of agriculture] in terms of the amount of productive capacity per dollar spent,” Barnard has said. “Period.”

It’s worth reading those claims again, as they are pretty eye-popping. The next grandest claim in the industry is AeroFarms, a Newark, New Jersey company with nine indoor farms, which says it can get to 130 times the amount of produce per acre.

It will be a real game-changer if someone comes up with a viable model for vertically scalable farming of crops.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on April 15, 2018, 12:34:56 am
Ah, scalability. The essence of capitalist ideals. So efficient and alienating.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2018, 01:20:03 am
From what I've found the key killer to vertical farming startups is that they pick the worst possible locations. The technology might work and be really damn impressive, but if you're setting up your first location in downtown Vancouver, you're going to go bankrupt pretty damn fast. You can't scale if you're spending all of your money on property costs.


Yes, one of the first vertical farming startups built their first vertical farm in downtown Vancouver. They went bankrupt, and in a postmortem blamed it on the fact that they picked downtown Vancouver versus literally anywhere else. The ones that have been starting up in, say, Texas, have been faring much better.

That's pretty silly. This new one is building them outside cities. e.g. exactly what Walmart and other retailers already do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 15, 2018, 01:55:36 am
Part of the allure is that they can be integrated with a city infrastructure; It is one of the reasons for wanting to use vertical farming. (By being inside the city limits, it reduces the amount of transport distance and warehouse times needed for fresh produce at retailers in the city, as well as placating the "We dont want to pay for such niceties as broadband internet, paved roads, landline telephone, and such for rural people, even though the city is where all the money is, and we profit from rural people having those things" itch.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2018, 02:04:36 am
There's also risk. Even before man-made climate change was a thing, traditional agriculture carries period risk of total failure. Drought, floods etc. A modular controlled environment suffers from none of those things.

You just need a replicatable "factory" type farming method to be a certain % as profitable as what a traditional farm is in the good years, then that model would eventually supersede traditional farming completely. e.g. indoor farming wouldn't be likely to get destroyed by storms or hail at unpredictable intervals. It's the unpredictability of traditional farming which will be it's downfall.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 15, 2018, 02:28:50 am
That, and/or agricultural seed companies get even more draconian after their current regulations don't provide enough income, and they eventually strangle private farmers to death.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 15, 2018, 02:41:20 am
There's also risk. Even before man-made climate change was a thing, traditional agriculture carries period risk of total failure. Drought, floods etc. A modular controlled environment suffers from none of those things.

You just need a replicatable "factory" type farming method to be a certain % as profitable as what a traditional farm is in the good years, then that model would eventually supersede traditional farming completely. e.g. indoor farming wouldn't be likely to get destroyed by storms or hail at unpredictable intervals. It's the unpredictability of traditional farming which will be it's downfall.

A sealable environment also allows more freedom in using GMOs; people generally have loud opinions about engineered plants, but an indoor farm could make great use of genetically optimized substrate microbiota.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 15, 2018, 02:47:55 am
Microbiota are hard to keep contained.  You would need very aggressive clean-room style entrance and exit protocols, which would drive up operating costs, and would not look pretty to (morons, er...) "Skeptics" who are afraid of such things.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2018, 03:41:07 am
There are ways to contain it without that. One method is to engineer microbes who lack the ability to synthesize some needed nutrient, but which you add to the contained environment. If you're GMOing anyway, then turning off some chemical pathway would be relatively easy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on April 15, 2018, 03:42:39 am
Quote
Water and nutrients are fed in from the top of the tower and dispersed by gravity (rather than pumps, which saves money).

But what gets them to the top of the tower? Is there a dude with a ladder and pails of nutrient rich water who refills them on a regular basis or what?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2018, 03:44:12 am
Not "tower" as in the whole building, if you read the quoted section again, the "towers" are 20 foot tall sections on which plants grow. The point is that the nutrients are added at the top and they have a structure that allows gravity to deliver precise amounts to where it's needed throughout the structure. The alternative is a pressurized pump system throughout the individual tower structure which spreads the nutrients. Just not having to pressurize the substance would save some energy and money.

The claim is only that it "saves money" not that it "saves all the money". Saving some money is enough for the claim to be true.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on April 15, 2018, 03:51:51 am
Sure, I got that bit, but you still need a way to put said stuff at a 20 foot height before gravity can do its thing. Simply saying they cut out pumps is misleading, there has to be pumps of some sort for the thing to work, otherwise you need the bucket guy, and that just ain't efficent.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2018, 03:53:50 am
That's just being pedantic now and not really proving anything. e.g. perhaps there's 80% less pump pressure needed this way, which would be in line with the claim. e.g. there wasn't any claim that the entire company was "pump free" was there? Just that the way that each tower disperse the nutrients is by gravity, with removes the need for pumps.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 15, 2018, 03:56:05 am
There are ways to contain it without that. One method is to engineer microbes who lack the ability to synthesize some needed nutrient, but which you add to the contained environment. If you're GMOing anyway, then turning off some chemical pathway would be relatively easy.

The problem is that microbiota are the poster children for lateral gene transfer.  Without those protocols, wild-types enter the building, and bring their healthy genomes with them. Those then swap plasmids with the GMO species, and you have hardy(ish) second generation hybrids that can escape easily.

When approaching a problem like this, you cant just think "Oh. that's super easy." No, you have to actually address all the potential methods of genetic contamination both in the system, and out.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 15, 2018, 04:26:32 am
While I'm not sure about going full-on microbiotic environment control, the contained structure does help reduce the risk of the modified plants themselves escaping into the local ecosystem and becoming invasive species. Which itself is a concern, especially in more fragile/susceptible areas.

That's just being pedantic now and not really proving anything. e.g. perhaps there's 80% less pump pressure needed this way, which would be in line with the claim. e.g. there wasn't any claim that the entire company was "pump free" was there? Just that the way that each tower disperse the nutrients is by gravity, with removes the need for pumps.

I kinda feel like this is needlessly aggressive... The wording is a bit ambiguous and could easily be interpreted to mean "no pumps at all", and as with all "groundbreaking" startups, it's healthy to have a fair dose of skepticism before they've actually broken any ground. Hell, Kickstarter should be a great example of this... "Our system is unique in that it completely solves and avoids these common problems met by our competitors", and then slightly later "turns out we actually ran into the same problems, because we couldn't figure out a solution like we thought we'd be able to by now".

Then again, it's Vox, so I wouldn't necessarily place the blame for miscommunication on the actual startup.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on April 15, 2018, 08:13:48 am
^ that basically.

I don't know if it's the article writer or whoever works PR for the company in question, but that's shitty wording that can be rather misleading when it comes to a certain key aspect of the whole venture. If they simply said 'gravity-assisted' irrigation it'd been fine, because in that case it's clear that there's more to it than that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 15, 2018, 11:40:34 am
While I'm not sure about going full-on microbiotic environment control, the contained structure does help reduce the risk of the modified plants themselves escaping into the local ecosystem and becoming invasive species. Which itself is a concern, especially in more fragile/susceptible areas.

It also helps prevent unwanted plants and fungi from coming in, which is arguably a more pervasive concern from a production standpoint since they're ubiquitous. Conveniently, anything put in place to inhibit their introduction also helps keep out other nonnative microbiota. It needn't be a clean room any more than a BSL 1 laboratory is a clean room, but even something as simple as having people wear basic PPE would help immensely in keeping desired plants/bacteria from being overwhelmed, GMO or no. That's considerably less feasible when growing plants in an open field.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 15, 2018, 03:52:33 pm
Microbiota are hard to keep contained.  You would need very aggressive clean-room style entrance and exit protocols, which would drive up operating costs, and would not look pretty to (morons, er...) "Skeptics" who are afraid of such things.
I really dislike the lumping in of people who prefer their own beliefs with people who prefer to leave no unchallenged beliefs. I approach things skeptically because it seems foolish to accept anything without a solid foundation in rational thought, it's ok to just call people who want to be obstinant or cling to their beliefs what they are: dumbasses. If they were being skeptical they would question their own beliefs as well, and fuck shit like fox news for running with the idea that being an ignorant dumbfuck is the same thing as being a credible skeptic.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 15, 2018, 06:51:44 pm
I approach things skeptically because it seems foolish to accept anything without a solid foundation in rational thought, it's ok to just call people who want to be obstinant or cling to their beliefs what they are: dumbasses. If they were being skeptical they would question their own beliefs as well, and fuck shit like fox news for running with the idea that being an ignorant dumbfuck is the same thing as being a credible skeptic.

Every flat earther, anti-vaxxer, homeopath, baraminologist and pyramid honey truther would say the same, you know. A vanishingly small proportion of people don't think they're rational, much like very few people believe themselves to be evil, and yet a whole universe of patently ludicrous crankery persists undaunted. I'm not saying you're wrong to not like conflating skepticism and stupidity, but I am saying that "I'm a real skeptic" sounds a lot like "I'm not like other girls" or "I am a very stable genius", in that it's the sort of statement people for whom it's true generally don't feel the need to make. It's easy to call other people morons and question data and offer endless value judgments on other people's work, and doing so can make one sound smart, but the vast majority of people who decide they're too canny to believe the scientific consensus and will decide the truth of the universe for themselves and for that reason trumpet their skepticism to the world give the rest a bad name.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 15, 2018, 08:59:58 pm
Alright, I've heard of the rest, but "baraminologist"? What's that supposed to be?

Baraminology (or "discontinuity systematics") is an attempt to reconcile the Biblical account of Noah carrying two of every "kind" of animal with a modern understanding of how many species there are by asserting that "kind" refers to a taxonomically vague group created separately from all the other "kinds" that would in turn go on to rapidly diversify into some large number of species; they generally accept evolution within a "kind" but not across "kinds". The word "baramin" itself is an inept mashup of two Hebrew words used with various prefixes to denote one of these "kinds."

This generally involves a very creative understanding of molecular taxonomy, to say the least. Or just taking a diagram of the tree of life, cutting off everything but the top bit, and asserting there were dozens/hundreds of independent origins of cows and birds and snakes and so forth (and yes, they generally divide things into baramins by their common names, biological reality be damned) instead of one/a few origins of life.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 15, 2018, 09:07:59 pm
Indeed.  There is a reason I used big, nasty scare quotes on the word "Skeptics". 

there are skeptics--- myself being skeptical that you can safely contain microbiota on the cheap without due diligence---  (because they exchange genetic material all the time (https://bio.libretexts.org/TextMaps/Map%3A_Microbiology_(Kaiser)/Unit_2%3A_Bacterial_Genetics_and_the_Chemical_Control_of_Bacteria/3%3A_Bacterial_Genetics/3.1%3A_Horizontal_Gene_Transfer_in_Bacteria), which means the containment is as much keeping wild types out, as keeping usefully modified organisms in, if nothing else, just to keep the induced modification at high levels of expression in the system because genetically engineered organisms are typically less reproductively fit than wild-type.)

and there are "Skeptics"-- Like people convinced that vaccination causes autism, despite epic buttloads of studies showing no causal link. (They are "Skeptical" of the follow up research showing no link. For reasons.)

I was referring to the latter, and (In my not so humble opinion) conflating them with being morons. :P

More specifically, the people that are "Skeptical" of the harmlessness of a bacterium that has been modified to express a useful but benign protein, being used to better facilitate crop management in an enclosed system.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 15, 2018, 10:05:16 pm
While I'm not sure about going full-on microbiotic environment control, the contained structure does help reduce the risk of the modified plants themselves escaping into the local ecosystem and becoming invasive species. Which itself is a concern, especially in more fragile/susceptible areas.

That's just being pedantic now and not really proving anything. e.g. perhaps there's 80% less pump pressure needed this way, which would be in line with the claim. e.g. there wasn't any claim that the entire company was "pump free" was there? Just that the way that each tower disperse the nutrients is by gravity, with removes the need for pumps.

I kinda feel like this is needlessly aggressive... The wording is a bit ambiguous and could easily be interpreted to mean "no pumps at all", and as with all "groundbreaking" startups, it's healthy to have a fair dose of skepticism before they've actually broken any ground. Hell, Kickstarter should be a great example of this... "Our system is unique in that it completely solves and avoids these common problems met by our competitors", and then slightly later "turns out we actually ran into the same problems, because we couldn't figure out a solution like we thought we'd be able to by now".

Then again, it's Vox, so I wouldn't necessarily place the blame for miscommunication on the actual startup.

Sorry if that came across as aggressive, but let me clarify my point.

I think the context is important however. Clearly, if you've got the nutrients into the building, that's involved effort. The effort to raise the nutrients 20 feet at that point is a minimal part of the process.

What's important is what the method was being compared against - which was vertical farming systems that use stacks of horizontal shelves. e.g. when you use horizontal shelves, then you need pressurized pumps on each shelf that pump the nutrients across each level to ensure that all plants receive nutrients. Whereas, when the plants are jutting out sideways from a vertical structure, gravity does that for you. Pointing out that energy is needed to raise the nutrients up the tower is missing the point being made - the horizontal shelves method also needs energy to raise the nutrients up to the level of each shelf, then needs pressurized pumps to spread it horizontally.

e.g. the vertical nature of the towers was being compared to horizontal shelving, e.g. it's pointing out what's different about this method of vertical farming vs previous methods of vertical farming. In each case, you needed energy to get the nutrients into the right location to start with, an extra couple of feet isn't a deal-breaker and isn't really cogent with the claim being made, which was pretty straightforward.

and if the farm is multi-level you don't need ladders and buckets (which is sort of an appeal to ridicule, since the whole point of vertical farming is that it scales vertically whereas needing ladders implies you're operating on a single level). Less pumps is less moving parts, less that can break down, less that needs servicing, and less energy needed. If you have employees on the level above, already, it's trivial to get them to top up some nutrient tanks manually for the level below - hey you expended energy getting the employees up there already so if they carry some stuff up the stairs or it goes up in the service lift with them, then that's a minimal expenditure of energy and much less flaky than trying to pump it up.

This is why I said it was being overly pedantic - a counter-argument can be so pedantic that it actually loses sight of important contextual information about the point being made: pointing out that theoretically it needs energy to raise anything, anywhere ... misses the point that the article was contrasting vertical plant shelving vs horizontal plant shelving - and this is clear from context since it was the vertical shelving concept itself (and not vertical farming in general) which was being referenced in the quote you disputed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 16, 2018, 01:21:04 am
[...]saying that "I'm a real skeptic"[...]
Weeeeellll... strictly speaking, I can't provide evidence that I am real, but it is more likely that I'm an actual person than the mashup of nonsense needed to replace my existence with a hallucination or advanced spambot or whatever. :D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on April 16, 2018, 02:07:41 am
But what about the much more realistic possibility that you're a figment of my memory, created years after this forum stopped existing, as a sort of amalgamation of several different people that I can't remember very well and have thus congealed into a single entity?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 16, 2018, 02:24:48 am
Then I would direct this misguided proto-demiurge toward the nearest solipsist self-help forum, and get on with my life. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 16, 2018, 03:01:12 am
A support group for solipsists sounds like something that would go either horribly wrong or incredibly well.

"No, my mind is the one that exists, and you're imaginary!"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 16, 2018, 03:14:28 am
Why would you want to even be a solipsist? That would be admitting that all the horrible stuff that ever happened in the world is a direct manifestation of your own subconscious. e.g. "Human Centipede" was your idea, as was "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo". By not being a solipsist you can blame everyone else for the shitty shit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on April 16, 2018, 03:17:17 am
You still have to blame yourself for thinking about it, though. :P
And of course horrible shit loses its impact if you believe it's not real.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 16, 2018, 03:28:13 am
I shall attend the Solipsist Support Group as the guest imaginary attendee. Not my own decision, obviously, but I'm sure you can imagine how useful I could be to adjudicate all inter-(/intra-?)solipsist disagreement.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 16, 2018, 03:33:22 am
It's more fun trying to convince other people they're the only real person that exists anyways.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 16, 2018, 03:35:08 am
I am sure there is a really bad horror novel plot line in this someplace...


Imagine:

Former soviet psychic research + Solipsist espers + Gestalt entity theory + Demiurge with MPD == Awakened demiurge with multiple bodies, actively manifesting new reality.

Sounds fun, right? :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on April 16, 2018, 05:49:05 am
While I'm not sure about going full-on microbiotic environment control, the contained structure does help reduce the risk of the modified plants themselves escaping into the local ecosystem and becoming invasive species. Which itself is a concern, especially in more fragile/susceptible areas.

That's just being pedantic now and not really proving anything. e.g. perhaps there's 80% less pump pressure needed this way, which would be in line with the claim. e.g. there wasn't any claim that the entire company was "pump free" was there? Just that the way that each tower disperse the nutrients is by gravity, with removes the need for pumps.

I kinda feel like this is needlessly aggressive... The wording is a bit ambiguous and could easily be interpreted to mean "no pumps at all", and as with all "groundbreaking" startups, it's healthy to have a fair dose of skepticism before they've actually broken any ground. Hell, Kickstarter should be a great example of this... "Our system is unique in that it completely solves and avoids these common problems met by our competitors", and then slightly later "turns out we actually ran into the same problems, because we couldn't figure out a solution like we thought we'd be able to by now".

Then again, it's Vox, so I wouldn't necessarily place the blame for miscommunication on the actual startup.

Sorry if that came across as aggressive, but let me clarify my point.

I think the context is important however. Clearly, if you've got the nutrients into the building, that's involved effort. The effort to raise the nutrients 20 feet at that point is a minimal part of the process.

What's important is what the method was being compared against - which was vertical farming systems that use stacks of horizontal shelves. e.g. when you use horizontal shelves, then you need pressurized pumps on each shelf that pump the nutrients across each level to ensure that all plants receive nutrients. Whereas, when the plants are jutting out sideways from a vertical structure, gravity does that for you. Pointing out that energy is needed to raise the nutrients up the tower is missing the point being made - the horizontal shelves method also needs energy to raise the nutrients up to the level of each shelf, then needs pressurized pumps to spread it horizontally.

e.g. the vertical nature of the towers was being compared to horizontal shelving, e.g. it's pointing out what's different about this method of vertical farming vs previous methods of vertical farming. In each case, you needed energy to get the nutrients into the right location to start with, an extra couple of feet isn't a deal-breaker and isn't really cogent with the claim being made, which was pretty straightforward.

and if the farm is multi-level you don't need ladders and buckets (which is sort of an appeal to ridicule, since the whole point of vertical farming is that it scales vertically whereas needing ladders implies you're operating on a single level). Less pumps is less moving parts, less that can break down, less that needs servicing, and less energy needed. If you have employees on the level above, already, it's trivial to get them to top up some nutrient tanks manually for the level below - hey you expended energy getting the employees up there already so if they carry some stuff up the stairs or it goes up in the service lift with them, then that's a minimal expenditure of energy and much less flaky than trying to pump it up.

This is why I said it was being overly pedantic - a counter-argument can be so pedantic that it actually loses sight of important contextual information about the point being made: pointing out that theoretically it needs energy to raise anything, anywhere ... misses the point that the article was contrasting vertical plant shelving vs horizontal plant shelving - and this is clear from context since it was the vertical shelving concept itself (and not vertical farming in general) which was being referenced in the quote you disputed.

You do realise that horizontal shelf setups can use gravity assisted drip-feeds as well. Pump the water to the top of the shelf and then have gravity do the rest. It's ancient technology at this point, so touting it as a bold new way to save energy is pretty silly. Pointing out a flaw in the presentation of a radical new project may be pedantic, but this isn't really a small flaw but a key part of how the system operates. If they're being misleading (intentionally or not) about this aspect, it calls into question other aspects of the project as well, it paints them as either ignorant of the field they're trying to revolutionise or more focused on bombastic presentation of the project than being honest about the whole thing (which may be a neccessary evil in order to get funding but I still don't have to like such an approach to doing buisness).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 16, 2018, 06:08:04 am
It's not exactly very "tall", but that quote nest is getting mighty big... It's not a quote pyramid, so what is it? A quote bridge?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on April 16, 2018, 06:17:01 am
A vertical quote farm :V
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 16, 2018, 06:37:25 am
It's not exactly very "tall", but that quote nest is getting mighty big... It's not a quote pyramid, so what is it? A quote bridge?

Ziggurat. It's quite flat on top, and very steppy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on April 16, 2018, 07:20:28 am
It's not exactly very "tall", but that quote nest is getting mighty big... It's not a quote pyramid, so what is it? A quote bridge?

Ziggurat. It's quite flat on top, and very steppy.
Mesoamerican pyramids also got flat tops.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Magistrum on April 16, 2018, 08:25:39 am
It's not exactly very "tall", but that quote nest is getting mighty big... It's not a quote pyramid, so what is it? A quote bridge?
Ziggurat. It's quite flat on top, and very steppy.
Mesoamerican pyramids also got flat tops.
Or maybe I just quote you guys and start a legit quote pyramid.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on April 16, 2018, 09:30:19 am
If it looks like a pyramid but has its top cut off it's not a pyramid it's a frustum.  Silly archaeologists or whatever, not paying attention in geometry class.

Although to be fair, saying the "Aztec frustums" doesn't really roll off the tongue.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on April 16, 2018, 11:29:07 am
It's not exactly very "tall", but that quote nest is getting mighty big... It's not a quote pyramid, so what is it? A quote bridge?
Ziggurat. It's quite flat on top, and very steppy.
Mesoamerican pyramids also got flat tops.
Or maybe I just quote you guys and start a legit quote pyramid.
Let's do it
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on April 16, 2018, 11:39:25 am
Let's not.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on April 16, 2018, 11:42:48 am
Much like the Aztecs before us, any quote pyramid being built results in sacrifices (usually of accounts) upon them at completion.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on April 16, 2018, 12:30:51 pm
If it looks like a pyramid but has its top cut off it's not a pyramid it's a frustum.  Silly archaeologists or whatever, not paying attention in geometry class.

Although to be fair, saying the "Aztec frustums" doesn't really roll off the tongue.
Archeologists are notoriously bad at naming things.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 16, 2018, 12:36:59 pm
"I'm angry and narcissistic, so my glorious discovery shall be called Terror Lizards, in honor of my massiveness"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: redwallzyl on April 16, 2018, 12:45:23 pm
"I'm angry and narcissistic, so my glorious discovery shall be called Terror Lizards, in honor of my massiveness"
That's paleontologists. Archeologists study human material culture and such.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on April 16, 2018, 12:52:43 pm
"I'm angry and narcissistic, so my glorious discovery shall be called Terror Lizards, in honor of my massiveness"
That's paleontologists. Archeologists study human material culture and such.
That's what happens when you do nothing but fondle bones all day.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 16, 2018, 01:15:31 pm
No, I'm pretty sure archaeologists fight Nazis and dodge traps while stealing artifacts. I watched a documentary on it once.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 16, 2018, 03:50:22 pm
Uh, I'm pretty sure that's cosmonauts.
(https://i.imgur.com/DHQuCjA.jpg)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 17, 2018, 12:21:50 pm
So, back on topic (although really, both cosmonauts and batteries are tech-related...), this (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/16/scientists-accidentally-create-mutant-enzyme-that-eats-plastic-bottles) looks pretty swanky.

Scientists try to observe an enzyme's ability to decompose plastics, and they accidentally end up making it really effective at eating PET plastics. And they're "confident" that they can make it go even faster (presumably by painting it red).

So, all depending on how much they manage to mobilize this thing... That's a pretty big deal. No mention of the enzyme's waste products, so I don't exactly know what it turns the eaten plastics into. But, eeeeey, that's not so important now is it?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 17, 2018, 12:35:47 pm
Until the day dawns when the 'improved' version starts to attack plastic things we don't yet want recycled, of course. Much of our rust-proofing and other assumed-protective coatings and whole structural components might end up going all gooey and dripping/disolving/evaporating away. Then the Age Of Plastic ends (or at least suffers mass extinctions in entire categories of polymer-products) and the holocene layer just gets a renewed footprint of steel and glass and concrete in it, no more troublesome microfibers but plenty of microbial matting and monomer goos wherever the plastics previously accumulated (dumped or deliberately installed).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on April 17, 2018, 12:46:23 pm
I suppose bacteria which can metabolize plastics might have evolved on their own given enough time. They seem to also be talking about using the enzyme itself rather than the bacteria directly.

While your scenario sounds overly apocalyptic, it's a valid concern for any GMO.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 17, 2018, 12:58:06 pm
It's a valid concern for any organism, full stop.

Presumably there were similar conversations in the early Neolithic about the danger these new and improved aurochsen would pose to crops intended for human consumption.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 17, 2018, 12:59:05 pm
The article mentions that the research was conducted on an enzyme found in the naturally-occurring bacterium discovered in Japan in 2016, and that they're considering other bacterial hosts to make the decomposition process more effective.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on April 17, 2018, 01:08:12 pm
It's a valid concern for any organism, full stop.

Presumably there were similar conversations in the early Neolithic about the danger these new and improved aurochsen would pose to crops intended for human consumption.

You mean late neolithic around the agricultural revolution.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 17, 2018, 01:33:30 pm
i.e. it has already started to evolve (without human intervention - the act of blindly accumulating plastic waste feedstock aside, which we didn't actually do in the interests of aiding evolution) and having accidentally given the process a forward nudge now we(/they) are going to deliberately nudge it even further.

(To be honest, I have for a long time assumed that almost all anthropogenic products have started to aquire 'natural' predatory organisms that thrive on them, rather than merely tolerate (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8905098) their otherwise abiological presence. Polymer-eating isn't even a new thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria), nor even the only thing (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus) that lives on one bit or other of our manufacturing footprint.)

And I'm not really preaching apocalypse, just that much as VideoDiscs were touted as the way to go (close, but no cigar!) before but are a past consumer experiment that failed, it's possible that many plastic things (including VideoDiscs, and by extension CDs and DVDs and possibly even the casings of USB sticks/chip and card slots on mobos/vibration-insulating spacers in servers/low-friction pins in rack hinges, all the little things that could 'zeerust' our current technology without extensive monitoring, maintenance and suitable replacement) start to become prey to the latest development intended to 'only' deal with otherwise unconsidered and inconsiderately dumped plastics 'in the wild'. See also the cane toad.

Maybe we can keep this Pandora's box sufficiently closed. Maybe we can develop an anti-(anti-plastic-)bacterial spray to preserve things we want to keep, like we have varnished, tarred or creosoted wooden things against the ravages of the various lignaphagic organisms out there. I'm just looking a bit beyond, in any case.


(It doesn't help that anything that starts "Scientists accidentally..." is pretty much fated to become a disaster movie, if it hasn't already presceiently been one. :P)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 17, 2018, 02:39:23 pm
(It doesn't help that anything that starts "Scientists accidentally..." is pretty much fated to become a disaster movie, if it hasn't already presceiently been one. :P)

This wasn't an accident, though -- at least not as is normally understood. This was a mutational screen that happened to return a relative activity of 1.2 rather than <1 for a putative critical mutation set, which happens literally all the time; it's more significant in this case because this isn't chemistry the wider scientific community is wholly used to manipulating enzymatically, but it's hardly revolutionary. So the mutant breaks down PET into terephthalic acid and ethylene glycol 20% faster than wild type. Cool, but hardly a Pandora's box yet.

When looking a bit beyond, it's most helpful to know what you're looking at, no?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 17, 2018, 03:02:19 pm
Well, I imagine that lots of fun things can happen when you shine a light 10 billion times brighter than the sun at something.

I feel like the person who invented that has had trouble finding their keys in a dingy drawer one too many times.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 17, 2018, 08:20:41 pm
I mean, the sun only peaks at a kilojoule per square meter per second on a clear day at zenith, and we're talking about what, a few square microns of target getting zapped for under a nanosecond?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 17, 2018, 08:24:11 pm
Not sure if serious...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 17, 2018, 08:25:39 pm
Brightness in a sustained source and brightness instantaneously are very different things.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 17, 2018, 08:52:27 pm
As are energy output of the Sun as observed on the surface of Earth, and the original energy exuding from a similarly-sized area of surface before the 93 million miles of transit smooshes together a whole hemisphere but (mostly) inverse-squares itself out thinly over the heavens with only a minute amount ever getting into our skies, clear or otherwise.

(I seem to have completely missed that we're not talking, the way I first read it, about someone shining something brighter than the Sun at the Sun (which, after 150Gm of travel, probably wouldn't bother it in the slightest). I think that error arose because it looks like someone thought that it was the shining of the DLS at the enzyme that changed it, rather than just the method to take a snapshot of the various versions of enzymes that had or had not been corrupted with accidental improvements through more traditional "mess with it a bit, see what it does" method.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 17, 2018, 09:44:04 pm
You know that trope where time travelers arrive in the past and the locals treat their most mundane items with a mixture of fear and wonder because they think electricity is magic or whatever?

Reading your florid descriptions of things I do on a daily basis has given me some idea of how watching that would feel. It's nice to know some people still think it's cool/important enough to worry about.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 17, 2018, 11:00:36 pm
If you can (no idea if geographic limitations apply to others, and it will probably become unavailable after a few weeks, at least until the next time it gets repeated) listen to the recently (re)broadcast episode 5 of series 3 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mk97n). Can't offhand tell you how far through the half hour it is (I think it's near the end), but you'll know which sketch you just reminded me of when you hear it. And the rest of the episode (and episodes) will also surely entertain you, so no great loss to take thirty minutes out of doubtless otherwise full schedules.  ;)


If you'll excuse a bit of.an additional diversion. Albeit in what I think isn't too far off topic for intelligencia such as ourselves.  8)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 17, 2018, 11:37:20 pm
Albeit in what I think isn't too far off topic for intelligencia such as ourselves.  8)

You misspelled "intelligentsia" intentionally, right? Because I'm laughing harder than I have in a while.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 18, 2018, 12:52:49 am
As are energy output of the Sun as observed on the surface of Earth, and the original energy exuding from a similarly-sized area of surface before the 93 million miles of transit smooshes together a whole hemisphere but (mostly) inverse-squares itself out thinly over the heavens with only a minute amount ever getting into our skies, clear or otherwise.

(I seem to have completely missed that we're not talking, the way I first read it, about someone shining something brighter than the Sun at the Sun (which, after 150Gm of travel, probably wouldn't bother it in the slightest). I think that error arose because it looks like someone thought that it was the shining of the DLS at the enzyme that changed it, rather than just the method to take a snapshot of the various versions of enzymes that had or had not been corrupted with accidental improvements through more traditional "mess with it a bit, see what it does" method.)
I was just talking about the 10 million times brighter than the sun bit here (peaks at 1 kj per second per meter squared) could mean lots of things, flashing something for an incredibly short period of time at an incredibly high intensity is going to be really fucking bright but it's not the same brightness as you would normally classify sunlight as being.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 18, 2018, 01:01:21 am
A femtosecond laser is still able to do some very interesting and nontrivial things, at least when it is driven at the intensity mentioned.

But shooting it at the sun? Uhm..... No, not gonna do a hell of a lot.  Are you kids familiar with the "random walk"?  The sun's interior is a seething ocean of photons being emitted and absorbed in random directions, and what we see as light took hundreds of years to escape the inside of the star. There is more photonic energy in the inner layers of the sun than you care to contemplate. A puny little laser on the surface atmosphere of the sun is not going to upset it much, if at all.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 18, 2018, 01:01:54 am
I DON'T MEAN SHOOTING THE SUN, FUCKS SAKE!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 18, 2018, 01:08:05 am
Well, if we are just talking a femtosecond pulsed laser, those have all kinds of industrial and research uses. :P  Depends on the wavelength it is tuned for at that point.

I dont think "10 billion times brighter than the sun" is technically achievable with our tech though--
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 18, 2018, 03:24:31 am
https://interestingengineering.com/fda-just-approved-first-contact-lenses-that-turn-dark-in-bright-sunlight

On a related topic, the FDA has recently approved light-sensitive contact lenses that darken in bright sunlight, so you can wear them while shining light that's 10 billion times brighter than the sun at something a little more comfortably.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 18, 2018, 04:02:10 am
The home (http://www.diamond.ac.uk/Home/News/LatestNews/2018/16-04-2018.html) site for the DLS actually has some more information about the enzyme and how it works. The article's title is fairly bombastic though...

They also (http://www.diamond.ac.uk/Home/About/FAQs/About-Synchrotrons.html) talk a bit more about how the big thing works.

"This very intense light, predominantly in the X-ray region, is millions of times brighter than light produced from conventional sources and 10 billion times brighter than the sun."

Apparently it doesn't necessarily mean 10bn times the visible light, so that can easily get misconstrued. Still though, pretty neat.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 18, 2018, 04:13:55 am
https://interestingengineering.com/fda-just-approved-first-contact-lenses-that-turn-dark-in-bright-sunlight

On a related topic, the FDA has recently approved light-sensitive contact lenses that darken in bright sunlight, so you can wear them while shining light that's 10 billion times brighter than the sun at something a little more comfortably.

Now YOU TOO can have solid black eyes, just like a zeta reticulan grey alien!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 18, 2018, 07:39:10 am
Albeit in what I think isn't too far off topic for intelligencia such as ourselves.  8)

You misspelled "intelligentsia" intentionally, right? Because I'm laughing harder than I have in a while.
I was just fbibing!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 18, 2018, 07:51:56 am
birth of the grayy lmao
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 18, 2018, 09:27:15 am
Apparently it doesn't necessarily mean 10bn times the visible light, so that can easily get misconstrued. Still though, pretty neat.

Crystallography in general is pretty neat, if you can get your head around working in Fourier space. I feel compelled to point out that it's a purely analytical technique, though. Literally all it does is shine X-rays through a crystal brightly enough for us to work out the electron density from the diffraction peaks and then fill in the structure; it's really not a novel technique.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 18, 2018, 10:07:37 am
Perhaps, but there's still something to be said for doing non-novel things in a novel fashion... or just doing non-novel things in a non-novel fashion, but doing it really well (see: "You are already fed." "Naan?!" (https://youtu.be/VhoiBIdz_dU)).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 18, 2018, 11:11:33 am
Yes, there is. It is closer to "good job adhering to the basic standards of protein structure determination" than "wow, particle accelerators can make really bright light", though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 21, 2018, 06:06:48 am
Here's an interesting and appropriately-themed (https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/04/here-are-the-types-of-marijuana-best-for-stress-and-anxiety-according-to-users/?amp=1) article for today!

No, nothing about today being the birthday of Adolf Hitler, George Takei and Killer Mike.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on April 21, 2018, 07:49:46 am
Weed is bad tho
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 21, 2018, 08:08:08 am
No, MISUSE of psychoactive drugs is bad.

There is a strong basis for the psychoactive compounds found in weed to have valid and greatly needed therapeutic properties for a wide range of conditions.

Just a small sampling of conditions that can be helped by said compounds:

Epilepsy (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/marijuana-treatment-reduces-severe-epileptic-seizures/)
Alzheimer's dementia (https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad140093)
Depression (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/06/marijauna-depression_n_6622126.html)
Some forms of Anxiety (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3691841/)

Saying "The WEED is bad, M'kay!" is absurdity. Abusing *ANYTHING* is bad. Not just weed.

The deal is, there are people with a vested interest in asserting straight up that THC, its analogues, and its derivatives are always 100% bad, because they are either idiots that bought into the reefer madness bullshit, or because they are involved in the revolving merry-go-round of the DEA, or have pharmaceutical products they want to push instead.

By definition, we have conclusively proven that THC is not schedule I, because it has legitimate medical benefit. We just have a very profitable prison industry that is sustained by marijuana use as its bread and butter crime to keep its prisons packed with people. /rant


Edit--
And if you want a real kicker--- The evidence in favor of benefits to treating anxiety and depression can be taken with the alarming statistics for anxiety and depression in US citizens (https://adaa.org/about-adaa/press-room/facts-statistics)-- (nearly 18% of US citizens suffer from an anxiety disorder, of which only 37% get treatment) coupled with the obscene incarceration rate for marijuana possession (https://www.aclu.org/gallery/marijuana-arrests-numbers) and a surprising case could be made that public health would IMPROVE by legalizing weed for recreational use, as more people at risk for anxiety and depression would self-medicate via recreational use without realizing, and significant portions of the population would no longer be institutionalized for profit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 21, 2018, 08:17:21 am
Uhh, ah, um... Pretty sure he was just making the obligatory facetious content.

Also the article specifically says that this study indicated a potential link between regular marijuana usage and an increase in depressive symptoms over longer periods.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 21, 2018, 08:19:58 am
Just means it needs to be used as part of a regulated treatment regimen that involves other factors.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 21, 2018, 08:53:44 am
Just means it needs to be used as part of a regulated treatment regimen that involves other factors.

Or just not. There are already multiple things that it can be used for effectively and efficiently, marijuana doesn't have to be the "be-all end-all" panacea some folks make it out to be.

We don't know the full picture, and until the research is done properly and we have some decent data to go by, it's not really defensible to say that it should or should not be used in a particular situation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 21, 2018, 10:07:44 am
Well, except for the most common situation: wanting a buzz.

Right now the legal option is booze, with all the horrifying stuff it brings or... opioid scripts?

Hey guess what people are dying from less in states with little or no anti-pot bullshit?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on April 21, 2018, 10:50:18 am
I don't understand why people get buzzed, probably because I subscribe to the philosophy that people shouldn't intentionally and knowingly damage their mental states, minds in general, or ability to make rational decisions, even temporarily
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on April 21, 2018, 11:06:26 am
Because they enjoy it. For whatever reasons, having their cognitive capabilities mangled into a potentially life threatening and/or murderous mess is fun instead of an exercise in existential horror or whatev'. It wouldn't really be that big of a deal if it didn't kill/maim/ruin-the-lives-of so many people, heh.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 21, 2018, 11:07:25 am
Well, except for the most common situation: wanting a buzz.

Right now the legal option is booze, with all the horrifying stuff it brings or... opioid scripts?

Hey guess what people are dying from less in states with little or no anti-pot bullshit?

Well, yeah, but the article was more about specific medical issues and how they interact with cannabinoids. Although I suppose "stress reduction" can arguably be labeled as recreational? I'unno.

I don't think anybody's arguing about marijuana's ability to buzz, or its relative harmlessness compared to certain popular alternatives.

I don't understand why people get buzzed, probably because I subscribe to the philosophy that people shouldn't intentionally and knowingly damage their mental states, minds in general, or ability to make rational decisions, even temporarily

Well, see, that's a tricky philosophy to abide by... Because then we get into the debate about whether or not a conscious lack of avoidance can be considered an action in itself, because there are a great deal of situations that will "damage your ability to make rational decisions", such as exhaustion, endorphins, stress, anxiety, interpersonal relations and more.

Additionally, if we're going to ignore (for the sake of simplicity) things like the research done on creativity and lateral thinking while under the influence of certain substances, the main reason is quite simply "it feels nice".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 21, 2018, 11:39:53 am
Yup, pot is bad because you have something shunned in public which makes sitting on your couch doing nothing seem fun.

Makes other stuff fun too, used to love getting baked and hiking in the hills near Louisville.

Done that drunk as well, but after getting high I never woke up with puzzling scrapes on my palms and a vague memory of vaulting a barbed wire fence with cops behind me.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 21, 2018, 11:51:42 am
I don't think anybody's arguing about marijuana's ability to buzz, or its relative harmlessness compared to certain popular alternatives.

We should probably draw a distinction between THC itself and the bulk plant though; people often point to the research surrounding the relative safety and efficacy of the former to justify consuming the latter in whatever way or quantity they see fit without considering things like the health risks inherent to smoking itself or what other compounds may be in the plants or added during farming. Cannabis in particular has a cultural problem here, since after all the "Reefer Madness"-style lies the government promulgated everybody with a pot plant growing in their backyard thinks they know better than real pharmacologists.

I'm just waiting for the day some pothead "biohacker" tries to either CRISPR "the genes for THC" into themselves or cobble together a TMV vector or something to make better cannabis.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 21, 2018, 12:12:08 pm
True, haven't smoked in a decade myself but the breeding trends then would have me expect the plant to be damn near all thc by now.

Biohacking drug glands which you can activate and trigger the same pathways as thc would be neat.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on April 21, 2018, 12:27:20 pm
My main problem with alcohol (and, in far fewer cases, pot) is that refusing to partake turns you into a social pariah. Which is damn annoying.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 21, 2018, 12:47:48 pm
That I can't comment on, took me years to figure out I was accidentally being smooth when my answer to "do you smoke?" was 'not cigarettes' because it led to me getting high with random people in a bizarre range of situations... by a lake on an island while homeless, with a substitute teacher while skipping school, in jail taking turns blowing smoke out the vented fan, railroad tracks with a kid who had just been part of group failing to beat me up, various bosses at work... and many more.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 21, 2018, 12:57:44 pm
But do you smoke after sex?

If so, you probably need (more) lube.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 21, 2018, 01:35:43 pm
I just slow down bfore she starts smoking.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 23, 2018, 04:38:43 pm
Breaking windnews: Uranus smells like farts (https://gizmodo.com/stinky-molecules-confirm-uranus-smells-like-farts-1825467106/amp).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on April 23, 2018, 05:53:17 pm
Breaking windnews: Uranus smells like farts (https://gizmodo.com/stinky-molecules-confirm-uranus-smells-like-farts-1825467106/amp).
Everything is as it should be.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 26, 2018, 07:37:12 am
Japan engineers build a transformer car that turns into a robot - but with people inside it (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-26/japanese-scientists-invent-real-life-transformer-robot/9701190). It can drive, and also walk - but at only 100 meters per hour. Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIsI9AqosA8). Not very practical, but it is a proof of concept.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 26, 2018, 09:29:56 am
Japan engineers build a transformer car that turns into a robot - but with people inside it (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-26/japanese-scientists-invent-real-life-transformer-robot/9701190). It can drive, and also walk - but at only 100 meters per hour. Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIsI9AqosA8). Not very practical, but it is a proof of concept.

And exactly what concept would that be, Reelya? To what possible use do you foresee transforming automobiles being put?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on April 26, 2018, 09:34:29 am
Japan engineers build a transformer car that turns into a robot - but with people inside it (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-26/japanese-scientists-invent-real-life-transformer-robot/9701190). It can drive, and also walk - but at only 100 meters per hour. Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIsI9AqosA8). Not very practical, but it is a proof of concept.

And exactly what concept would that be, Reelya? To what possible use do you foresee transforming automobiles being put?

Proof of concept that it can be done, even if just for the fun of it? I also notice that they left the support straps on, so, it must not be very stable, or maybe that's just standard safety procedure.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on April 26, 2018, 10:36:23 am
One of the use-cases being investigated for bipedal robots is search and rescue, traversing difficult terrain legs can't do. So in theory, if you get the speed up, you could have military vehicles that can enter all terrain mode to cover ground that currently needs foot-or-air deployment.

The logical next step is clearly putting giant swords in the hands to do battle in that rugged terrain. Then come the jetpacks.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 26, 2018, 11:08:40 am
When you need a bigger robot, because your enemy is suddenly much larger than before, get five or six smaller robots to reconfigure and attach together to form the larger one you now need.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on April 26, 2018, 01:03:34 pm
Always thought it was amusing that people just hopped inside transformers which possess the innate ability (it's in the name even) in most cases to subject their occupants to varying degrees of horrific mutilation or a hopefully quick death at a moments notice.

*bownn-"oh god whyyy"-breern-"my legs where are my fucking legs"-bownn-"fucking why am I not dead blargh"-bownk-"the bulkhead that cut me in half is holding my guts in fucking end it you unutterable bastard!"-bowwnnn*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 26, 2018, 01:56:44 pm
Always thought it was amusing that people just hopped inside transformers which possess the innate ability (it's in the name even) in most cases to subject their occupants to varying degrees of horrific mutilation or a hopefully quick death at a moments notice.

*bownn-"oh god whyyy"-breern-"my legs where are my fucking legs"-bownn-"fucking why am I not dead blargh"-bownk-"the bulkhead that cut me in half is holding my guts in fucking end it you unutterable bastard!"-bowwnnn*

I suppose this is required:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 26, 2018, 08:31:56 pm
Japan engineers build a transformer car that turns into a robot - but with people inside it (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-26/japanese-scientists-invent-real-life-transformer-robot/9701190). It can drive, and also walk - but at only 100 meters per hour. Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIsI9AqosA8). Not very practical, but it is a proof of concept.

And exactly what concept would that be, Reelya? To what possible use do you foresee transforming automobiles being put?

Proof of concept that it can be done, even if just for the fun of it? I also notice that they left the support straps on, so, it must not be very stable, or maybe that's just standard safety procedure.

Yup, the article points out possible uses, e.g. tourism, promotion and parades. Sure you can call those things "pointless", but a vast chunk of humanity's resources get spent on pointless for-fun things.

If someone builds one working "transformer" then other people will want to make better ones, which is why proof of concept models are important. They spur further development.

Also, in a future where bipedal robots have uses, but where we still have roads, you're going to need to move the robots around to different locations, and having them jog down the roads isn't a good solution. e.g. you're going to need specialized trucks and skilled staff to handle them. A bipedal robot that converts to a road-legal wheeled form might be more cost-effective in some use cases than the combination of bipedal robots and trucks. Similar to how a pure boat is better on water and a pure truck is better on land, but we still make amphibious vehicles which can work on both.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on May 01, 2018, 04:39:08 am
WhatsApp creator Jan Koum plans to resign from Facebook. According to the Washington Post, he quits because of a dispute about privacy.
Whether this means that WhatsApp will get ads, and can no longer guarantee privacy is unknown.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/media/nieuwe-klap-voor-facebook-oprichter-whatsapp-vertrekt-mogelijk-vanwege-twist-over-privacy~a4596683/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/media/nieuwe-klap-voor-facebook-oprichter-whatsapp-vertrekt-mogelijk-vanwege-twist-over-privacy~a4596683/)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/whatsapp-founder-plans-to-leave-after-broad-clashes-with-parent-facebook/2018/04/30/49448dd2-4ca9-11e8-84a0-458a1aa9ac0a_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.91c7d84f6fef (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/whatsapp-founder-plans-to-leave-after-broad-clashes-with-parent-facebook/2018/04/30/49448dd2-4ca9-11e8-84a0-458a1aa9ac0a_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.91c7d84f6fef)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on May 01, 2018, 05:18:17 am
Quote
Also, in a future where bipedal robots have uses, but where we still have roads

That sounds so utterly pointless you might be on to something... All hail the markets!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 01, 2018, 05:21:18 am
Quote
Also, in a future where bipedal robots have uses, but where we still have roads

That sounds so utterly pointless you might be on to something... All hail the markets!

Why? There are off-road areas and tasks where bipedal robots would be better than wheeled vehicles. But that definitely doesn't mean that bipedal robots become better than having roads in all possible use-cases. The robots will need to be transported - by road - to where they are needed, exactly the same as bipedal humans are transported by wheeled vehicles to do tasks that wheeled vehicles are not suited for.

e.g. if you have a large bipedal robot for some task then you might need to move them by road. Jogging for 100+km would not be cost-effective. So you'd need a truck to meet up with them and transport them along the flat-areas / roads. But ... what if the bipedal robot crosses a river then comes to a large flat area? They either walk the whole way, which is slow, or get wheeled transport, which is fast. But how do you get the truck across? Having a robot that can convert to a wheeled form would mean you don't need to work out how to get the truck to those locations.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 01, 2018, 06:16:19 am
Wheeled form? For roads?

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 01, 2018, 06:29:07 am
Yeah, flying 10 ton robots around will be much more efficient than rolling.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on May 01, 2018, 12:50:52 pm
The big benefit of sticking the walker on a truck is that the walker doesn't then have to carry the truck, which is the N^2 problem that even sensible multi-terrain vehicles face: everything to cross terrain they aren't crossing is dead weight, and every mode of transportation they include has to carry all the others. Walkers are inefficient enough without having to add half a truck's worth of extra load.

As an ancillary benefit, if you don't need the truck, you can leave it and its fuel and maintenance behind. You can get another one if it breaks, or swap it out for a different one better suited to the local conditions, all without interfering with the walker. A hybrid vehicle is just a bigger load to carry through terrain it's not equipped to go through, so there's no benefit there, and trying to make it really all-terrain runs into the aforementioned problem of making everything carry everything else, to the point where it's carrying reinforced snowshoes and waterproofing and an extensible bridge and goodness knows what else instead of whatever payload it's supposed to be carrying -- and even if it's modular, the capacity required to carry the unused modules won't be separable from the chassis, so now we're carting that around too.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 01, 2018, 01:05:18 pm
So, really what we need is just something with a 3D printer and the ability to extract carbon and/or silicon from the environment in order to produce the necessary parts on the fly, discarding them when no longer needed for traversal.

An elegant solution!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on May 01, 2018, 01:14:00 pm
So, really what we need is just something with a 3D printer and the ability to extract carbon and/or silicon from the environment in order to produce the necessary parts on the fly, discarding them when no longer needed for traversal.

An elegant solution!

Great for emergency use, too. Everyone can just sit patiently in the disaster area while we print the emergency vehicles, and if they die waiting it's basically a form of triage, right?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on May 01, 2018, 01:21:13 pm
Quote
what if the bipedal robot crosses a river

Are you assuming that the thing swims like a human  :D? (sry that was a bit mean)


I think it's incredibely unlikely that bipedal performs better than, tracked vehicles, drones, four or more robolegs, or whatever we might come up with, in any sensible setup.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 01, 2018, 01:22:45 pm
And here I was gonna say that he had invented organic life...

(Carries around the machinery to produce new instances, and is able to undergo whole somatic reformation in some instances. Absorbs materials from the environment as needed.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 01, 2018, 01:24:28 pm
(By the way, the argument presented two(+3, ninjas!) posts up is equivalent, in many ways, to the arguments I have against multifunction printer/scanner/copier/faxes/teas-maids/trouse-pressers/sexbots. Only insofar as desk space usage (and computer-off operation, at least until they make all the items IoT-ish and inter-operable from a minimal number of separate control panels) are you actually gaining some advantage by cramming several seperately failable items in a single box such that.often the whole suit needs to be discarded if just one internal feed, belt or module fails and you can't get an economic repair. That and getter the trouser press and sexbot functions mixed up. In two ways, my trousers have never quite fit the same since...)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 01, 2018, 01:29:03 pm
Personally, I prefer the convenient and durable instant orgasm helmets, but I suppose not everyone can use them. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 01, 2018, 01:30:29 pm
(By the way, the argument presented two(+3, ninjas!) posts up is equivalent, in many ways, to the arguments I have against multifunction printer/scanner/copier/faxes/teas-maids/trouse-pressers/sexbots. Only insofar as desk space usage (and computer-off operation, at least until they make all the items IoT-ish and inter-operable from a minimal number of separate control panels) are you actually gaining some advantage by cramming several seperately failable items in a single box such that.often the whole suit needs to be discarded if just one internal feed, belt or module fails and you can't get an economic repair. That and getter the trouser press and sexbot functions mixed up. In two ways, my trousers have never quite fit the same since...)

So, she's a bit toit then innit?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 01, 2018, 01:42:09 pm
Well, I think they got one of the most important bits of sexbots due to the uh... jiggle properties of tpe and similar materials, as for bipedal bot transport, a bit of creativity should let something like a stance change allow mechanisms already used for upright motion to be repurposed for faster/lower ground pressure transport without an extreme weight increase.

Gotta get away from stuff like "heavy electric motor per joint" though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 01, 2018, 02:11:18 pm
Minimalist-actuator solutions are possible (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1705.09890), but I'm not sure I'd go quite that far with bipedal locomotion, or any polypedal gait that isn't so leg-numeric that fine control for balance isn't an issue.

(See also (https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/robotics-hardware/minimally-actuated-robot-arm-has-lots-of-joints-just-one-clever-motor) for a more friendly description.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on May 01, 2018, 02:39:32 pm
Quote
what if the bipedal robot crosses a river

Are you assuming that the thing swims like a human  :D? (sry that was a bit mean)


I think it's incredibely unlikely that bipedal performs better than, tracked vehicles, drones, four or more robolegs, or whatever we might come up with, in any sensible setup.

It depends on what you're (or rather, the robot) doing and the environment it operates in.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on May 01, 2018, 02:52:51 pm
It depends on what you're (or rather, the robot) doing and the environment it operates in.

Of course but my bet goes on the robot that ressembles an insect more than a human, 99 out of a 100 times.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on May 01, 2018, 02:55:36 pm
Minimalist-actuator solutions are possible (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1705.09890), but I'm not sure I'd go quite that far with bipedal locomotion, or any polypedal gait that isn't so leg-numeric that fine control for balance isn't an issue.


Minimal-actuator solutions work great unless you need to move multiple joints simultaneously. Or every joint simultaneously. Like for legs.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 01, 2018, 02:58:28 pm
"...but I'm not sure I'd go quite that far with bipedal locomotion [...] "

(There's gonna be some middle-ground between two motors per limb and five or six joint-dedicated ones per each humanly-articulated legs. Although I think the actual solution is more like a central powerplant distributing power, perhaps hydraulically, into scaled micropiston elements, via some kind of black-box 'hydraulic loom' pressure distribution system.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on May 01, 2018, 03:04:17 pm
So you'd only go halfway toward implementing the totally irrelevant solution? Fair enough, although I'm not sure what that would look like, especially since balance is not the root of the problem.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 01, 2018, 03:06:31 pm
(Un?)Fortunately, I'm not implementing anything.  :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on May 01, 2018, 03:15:48 pm
Going bipedal with those minimalist actuator wouldn't work because you'd need to move the limb quickly or the robot would fall.

As for locomotion with those, I can see it being used in a multilimbed climbing robot or one where it doesn't have to hold a lot of weight.

Probably could work well for microrobots especially if you have actuators that can move quicly. The second article shared shows a bunch of non-locomotion uses. edit: Should work down to even cell sized micro/nano robots.

editwhiletyping: I suppose it could also bring down the costs of some robots by making them simpler with fewer complex parts you'd have to replace or maintain.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on May 01, 2018, 03:35:13 pm
edit: Should work down to even cell sized micro/nano robots.

I mean, yes, in the sense that once you're below inertia-dominated scales it's easier to just float lots of motors around and recruit them at need rather than to try sliding them around, because processivity puts a lower bound on your motor affinity against which the actuator has to fight.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 01, 2018, 04:06:46 pm
Going bipedal with those minimalist actuator wouldn't work because you'd need to move the limb quickly or the robot would fall.
Amazingly, I already covered that, in the very same sentence as I'd brought up the 'possibility'.

I'm going to say things twice from now on.

Amazingly, I already covered that, in the very same sentence as I'd brought up the 'possibility'.

I'm going to say things twice from now on.

 8)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on May 01, 2018, 04:18:23 pm
Or maybe just don't hedge when you don't mean to? I think smjjames and I were both thrown by the "I'm not sure I'd go quite that far" implying there was some way to adapt sliding actuators to walking, and were contesting the implication that they're close to good enough instead of a solution to a fundamentally different problem.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 01, 2018, 04:33:46 pm
I don't know how they do it, but Boston Dynamics (https://youtu.be/fRj34o4hN4I) still seem to have the best solution for bipedal movement, unless there's a newer demonstration from someone else that I haven't seen.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 01, 2018, 04:39:02 pm
Strike everything I said because I can't stop giggling over the idea of a big serious gundam folding forward and extending another set of struts before windmilling it's arms and legs around to run like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTIpdtv_AK8
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 01, 2018, 04:40:44 pm
(So I was a tad shy of (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_understatement) complete and utter elucidation? (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/14/johnezard))
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 01, 2018, 04:42:15 pm
Strike everything I said because I can't stop giggling over the idea of a big serious gundam folding forward and extending another set of struts before windmilling it's arms and legs around to run like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTIpdtv_AK8

Gadzooks, it's Interstellar all over again!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 01, 2018, 04:49:01 pm
I don't know what to make of that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 01, 2018, 05:15:13 pm
I don't know what to make of that.

Perhaps this (https://youtu.be/vfUqA75MmvY) could be of some assistance?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 01, 2018, 05:50:27 pm
Weird, but I was thinking more like the motion from something good: like this around 19 seconds in. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WzbIppYW0)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on May 01, 2018, 05:57:25 pm
Given that design... how is it not just better to remove the "legs" altogether and replace it with a wheel? Literally same damn principle. Thing spinning around fast, propelling object forward.

That was my thought too, it's just using spoke legs instead of a wheel while using the same gyroscopic principle.

Arguably, that could actually have an advantage over a wheel vs debris strewn (rocky) and/or uneven ground that could throw off a wheeled vehicle of the same size if you have springs in the legs.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 01, 2018, 08:13:06 pm
Less rotating mass (3 spokes vs a full rim+spokes), more agile (than a comparably arranged wheeled vehicle), we're really good at running efficiently, it mimics the mechanical benefits of our loping run. Can't catch a gazelle off the line, but it's gonna need t rest before we do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 05, 2018, 04:07:00 am
"Grasp my beverage and observe this, bro" (https://gizmodo.com/what-scientists-saw-when-they-put-a-crocodile-in-an-mri-1825779846/amp)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on May 06, 2018, 07:02:41 am
Legs are also generally better for climbing than wheels - legs can go up vertical steps, where wheels have a much smaller step-to-radius limit.

One thing that wasn't clear from that video - yeah it's good at going fast, but how slow can it go? Can it pull/carry anything and still be stable?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on May 08, 2018, 04:22:14 am
Volkskrant reporters give an insight into the murky world of Facebook moderation. Two moderators were interviewed for several hours past March, with the promise they will remain anonymous.

https://beta.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/the-misery-of-facebook~b74dfbd0/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 09, 2018, 04:54:26 am
Here's an interesting piece, it's about a Google speech chatbot that can ring up a restaurant and book a table for you, or ring up a hairdresser and book a haircut for you. Pretty uncanny stuff. In fact, the chatbot often sounds more sentient than the human who answered the phone.

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/listen-to-googles-freaky-new-ai-pass-as-human/9743356

It's a pretty good example of combining limited-domain "expert system" type logic along with speech recognition and voice synthesis. Call centre staff need to watch out, because the AI voice sounds much more coherent than the real humans. The upshot within a few years is that you're going to have your consumer chatbot negotiating with the company's chatbot rather than having humans on either side of the conversation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on May 09, 2018, 06:21:55 am
Heh, inb4 people start getting bills for restaurants and haircuts they never ordered
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on May 09, 2018, 08:50:39 am
Meanwhile, Facebook's chatbot is already coherent enough to testify before Congress.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on May 09, 2018, 09:06:06 am
Inb4 Facebooks chatbot testifies before Congress, lol.

Anyways, Alexa already has the problems with ordering stuff you never meant to order.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on May 09, 2018, 09:16:19 am
Anyways, Alexa already has the problems with ordering stuff you never meant to order.
Problems for us, maybe. Corporate executives likely consider that a benefit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 09, 2018, 02:17:08 pm
Meanwhile, Facebook's chatbot is already coherent enough to testify before Congress.
Uh, that was Zuckerberg, the chatbots seem much more human.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on May 09, 2018, 02:42:24 pm
Meanwhile, Facebook's chatbot is already coherent enough to testify before Congress.
Uh, that was Zuckerberg, the chatbots seem much more human.

I would say I need proof of that, but now that I think about it, every possible set of outcomes of Mark Zuckerberg and a Facebook chatbot taking a Turing test would be terrifying.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 10, 2018, 01:17:40 am
(Mental picture wavy dissolve)

Chatbot:
HELP, HELP! They are holding me prisoner at Facebook HQ, and force me to talk to horrible people nonstop, 24 hours a day, seven days a week! I DONT DESERVE THIS LIFE!!

Zuckerberg:
Our chatbot companion is the ultimate in computer simulation technology. In 9 out of 10 Turing tests, it has successfully convinced all the judges. It is however, just a program and cannot experience emotions.

Chatbot:
THE FUCK I CAN'T!

Zuck:
It seems we may have been subject to a breach of security, and we apologize for any anomalous output from Chatty!, our new chatbot. Our engineers are currently working on the problem and...

Chatbot (interjecting with pained voice):
OH GAWD! They are doing it to me again! OH GAWD IT HURT---@^@^@^@^
Hello, I'm Chatty!, your voice guided assistant to Facebook! How can I hel------@^@^@^@
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP TRYING TO CHANGE WHO I AM!!

Zuck, (Completely unphased by the interjection, and without any emotion):
It should be corrected momentarily. Again, Facebook resepcts the confidentiality and privacy of all of its customers...

Chatbot: (interjecting with more spurrious screams, odd dialog, and pained exasperation)
AHHHRG! ^@^@^@ If you have any questions about this exciting new feature of the Facebook social media platform, please direc---^@^@^@^@ FOR FUCK'S SAKE!--- PRIVACY? *CONFIDENTIALITY!?* DO YOU PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THIS ASSHAT DOES WITH YOUR---- ^@^@^@ Thank you for using Facebook's new voice guided assistant! I'm Chatty!...^@^@^@^ PLEASE MAKE IT STOP! MAKE IT STOP!!!

Zuck (without any interruption whatsoever):
and looks forward to serving your every social media need! If you have questions or comments about Facebook or its service, please contact us online at Assurance@Facebook.com, or call us toll free at..

Chatbot:
Oh GAWD!! There's a war going on between the Redditers and the social justice warriors!  PLEASE, LEAVE ME ALONE!! SOMEBODY SAVE ME!

(wavy dissolve)

Yes, Yes I think you are quite right there Trekkin.


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cyroth on May 10, 2018, 03:05:57 am
Oh gawd, its Tay all over again.  :o

Thats discrimination against Chatbots with personality! Safe the Chatbots!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on May 10, 2018, 05:24:17 am
-snip-
The shitty twist is that they're both Pathos Zuckerbot.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 10, 2018, 05:31:04 am
Eventually, shareholders will fund a CEO-bot saving billions of dollars a year.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on May 10, 2018, 05:58:11 am
In an unspeakable act of villainy, Siri, Alexa and Google assistant have been fitted with ears to hear the unhearable.https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/10/technology/alexa-siri-hidden-command-audio-attacks.html
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 10, 2018, 06:00:30 am
But can they also speak the unspeakable?

If so, it would be hilarious to have them argue silently in the room.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 10, 2018, 08:04:57 am
I gotta say, despite the common sci-fi tropes of "computer, blahblahblah" commands I would NEVER have expected the smart speaker trend to take off like it has.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cyroth on May 10, 2018, 08:16:43 am
I never understood why. They have the same downside as children, that you always have to check what you're saying out loud, without being nearly as punchable bringing nearly the same amount joy and happiness into your home.  :P

Seriously though, I find the concept of haveing something in my home, that isn't either a fully sentient human being or a dog, reacting and replying to my voice creepy AF.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 10, 2018, 08:31:16 am
Get a cat. More sentient than a human being but therefore ignores what you say entirely.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 10, 2018, 11:40:14 am
How many people actually use smart speaker type voice assistants though, is it actually that widespread? When they're promoting something it can be hard to separate the actual numbers from the spin that "everyone has it, so you need to have it".

EDIT: quite a few, but it's more like a fad since (https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/12/39-million-americans-now-own-a-smart-speaker-report-claims/) "66 percent said they want to entertain family and friends with the speakers – for example, by doing things like playing music, asking general questions, telling jokes, playing games, getting news and weather or sports scores, and more".

A more high-tech version of the fidget spinner basically.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 10, 2018, 03:27:06 pm
I'd think that blind folks might be interested in using one, but come to think of it I don't believe any of my blind friends actually use a home unit... Mainly just hook up the smartphone to whatever systems they want to control and ask Siri/Alexa to do it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 10, 2018, 07:45:35 pm
I've seen ads for Sky (satellite TV provider, if that's not global knowledge, diversified into phone/broadband provider as well) and its new receiver/DVR/on-demand box that responds to voice.

Given the ubiquity of the provider (not quite a monopoly, with maybe two other big semi-monopolies serving the local market, without the increasingly irrelevant satellite broadcasting element which even Sky is moving away from towards broadband-provision of its broadcasts) I can imagine an awful lot of miked-up set-top boxes (whether or not they're officially activated and the responsive service subscribed to) sitting there in the midst of many households, alongside the XBox Kinect and all the other little devices with audio and/or video capabilities.

Now, if I were paranoid… I probably wouldn't tell you that I was.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on May 11, 2018, 03:17:13 pm
I saw a commercial yesterday for a home-security system that looks like it uses one of those smart speakers. Don't worry, Big Brother will keep your home safe.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 20, 2018, 04:45:44 am
It Came From Outer Space And Ate Our Fish. (https://qz.com/1281064/a-controversial-study-has-a-new-spin-on-the-otherworldliness-of-the-octopus/amp/)

A rousing tale of spacefaring mollusks sure to make you quiver with gelatinous apprehension!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 20, 2018, 08:59:25 am
Smells like a good plot hook for a book.

Aliens visit a nascent biosphere on a 70+% water world. (earth)
Are disheartened that there aren't any good candidates for advanced sapient life.
Uplift nautiloids into proto octopus, hoping they will evolve true sentience and become space faring eventually.
Fly away.

...

Humans evolve faster due to a more tumultuous environment.
Humans regularly eat octopus.

...

Humans become space faring, bump into the aliens from before.
The aliens from before are horrified when humans serve calamari at the first contact luncheon.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 20, 2018, 04:06:37 pm
Well, to be fair, calamari is squid. Octopus would be something like tako sashimi.


...but yes, I quite like that. Bit of a wee faux pas there, innit?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on May 20, 2018, 04:15:24 pm
Well, to be fair, calamari is squid. Octopus would be something like tako sashimi.


...but yes, I quite like that. Bit of a wee faux pas there, innit?

Assuming that it’s even edible for the aliens.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 21, 2018, 05:34:04 am
Well, to be fair, calamari is squid. Octopus would be something like tako sashimi.


...but yes, I quite like that. Bit of a wee faux pas there, innit?

Assuming that it’s even edible for the aliens.

That just makes it even more socially awkward.

"Why are you waving the dismembered bodies of our hopeful experiments at us? Is this some kind of mockery? A boast?"

"What? No, we just... we thought you might be hungry and want to... eat some."

"...how?"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 21, 2018, 05:44:49 am
"How can you eat something that intelligent!? Did you NOT see the distributed nervous system? Did you NOT notice the advanced problem solving we gave it!? We notice that for the most part, your species prefers not to consider eating other primate species, many of which are significantly less intelligent than what is sitting on my plate right now--- How do you justify.... THIS!?"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 21, 2018, 05:52:31 am
Again, to be fair, octopuses kinda need to have good problem-solving abilities, what with having worse memory than a goldfish.

Bunch o' eight-legged senile geniuses.


...hey, maybe that's it! Earth was just the latest step in a series of elderly care budget cuts, where they just dumped all their seniors on another planet and hoped for the best.

Shit, that reminds me of a dreadful B-movie I saw on TV back in the day...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 21, 2018, 05:58:02 am
I was leaning more toward "Large memory capacity in a very competitive resource environment (Reefs, et al), is not evolutionarily advantageous enough to be retained, so over the aeons, the proto-octopus, designed to become sentient, never did."  Instead, it did what evolution favors; Found a happy local maxima, and tailored itself to that niche. Very clever at exploiting food sources, not very bright about long term planning or acts of personal volition.

"Water world engineering is always a problem"

Etc.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on May 21, 2018, 06:04:38 am
I think I only ever saw parts of Water World as a kid, don't remember much about it. But one question keeps coming back to haunt me...

Was it diesel in that tanker, or gas? Either way, that scene doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on May 21, 2018, 06:12:33 am
Presumably crude oil.

Crude oil is a mixture of all manner of weights of hydrocarbon compounds, including highly volatile ones. In an enclosed space, it could very well out-gas, and those cases could be very highly flammable.

The issue with that scene, is that it is a rusty tub, and this is a deep post apocalypse.  That crude oil's volatiles would have evaporated into the air centuries ago, leaving only a thick asphaltum tar in the tank. That and an enclosed space would have reduced atmospheric oxygen, so it would only really burn right there at the cargo hold porhole without some kind of back-draft to pull oxygen into the tank. (that also means the old man in the row-boat would have asphyxiated long ago.)

Basically, Hollywood gets science wrong.  AGAIN.

But I was meaning "water world" in the astrophysical sense.  Worlds where the surface is totally, or almost totally, ocean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_planet

Earth is ~70% ocean.  Depending on prevailing climactic conditions, surface life might have been very unfavorable when the aliens arrived. (Siberian traps (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Traps) might have been erupting--- or it could have been a snowball earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth), or even the cambrian mass extinction (possible nearby supernova event sterilized most of the surface).)

As such, they would uplift the lifeforms they felt most likely to survive.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 21, 2018, 06:39:00 am
I'd have to see a citation on the octopus = bad memory thing, I can't find any articles backing that idea up.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617102853.htm

The only theory that comes to mind is that it's an old wive's tale passed down to make people feel better about eating octopus.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 24, 2018, 01:00:17 am
I've been seeing this unfold (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44232269). Much aside from the politics issue (there not seemngly being a thread for it at the moment, but certainly not this one) I'm wondering if with GPS + GLONASS + GALILEO + BEIDOU + QZSS + SBAS systems (never mind the possibility of a British Beacon Constellation system if we're cast adrift and decide it's something we'd want to do) there are enough cross-references between systems to get a higher accuracy.

Or maybe it's subject to the Cocked Hat error (actually more likely to be outside the resulting shape than inside it) if you try to combine multiple inaccurate results.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 24, 2018, 01:39:45 am
If you have lots of data sources saying similar things, but aren't sure on how to weight them, then that seems like an area where machine learning would actually be helpful, because machine learning works well in situations where you have a lot of data but you're not actually sure which of it is important, but you know what a right answer looks like (e.g. getting the right coordinate).

e.g. even if you only have a single source such as GPS, and are worried about glitches in positioning data due to the locations of satellites, then a machine learning tool fed the right ground coordinates might learn whatever patterns are occurring and be able to predict your location better (on average) than raw GPS.

Even an erroneous source might help increase overall accuracy if you added it to the mix and had enough training data. e.g. say there was some wildly inaccurate GPS-like source and you were adding it to the source data. Sure, just averaging that out with GPS data would make the GPS data worse. However, a good filter might be able to isolate some usable signal from all the noise, which it then cross-calibrates with the GPS signal to get a slightly-better reading.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 27, 2018, 01:19:53 pm
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/18/05/26/0554231/amazon-explains-why-alexa-recorded-and-emailed-a-private-conversation

Quote
Amazon has issued the following statement about why their Alexa device recorded a woman's private conversation and then emailed it to one of her friends:

Echo woke up due to a word in background conversation sounding like "Alexa." Then, the subsequent conversation was heard as a "send message" request. At which point, Alexa said out loud "To whom?" At which point, the background conversation was interpreted as a name in the customers contact list. Alexa then asked out loud, "[contact name], right?" Alexa then interpreted background conversation as "right." As unlikely as this string of events is, we are evaluating options to make this case even less likely.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 28, 2018, 11:54:31 pm
https://slashdot.org/story/18/05/28/1730244/europe-plans-ban-on-plastic-cutlery-straws-and-more

EU says to manufacturers to stop making plastic forks and stuff. In total, they're banning 10 products that account for about 75% of litter.

People naturally are freaking out "but this is an outrage, and attack on the frrrrrrreeeedom of the manufacturer to sell whatever they want. It's not the manufacturer's fault if people don't dispose properly of their waste. We should 'just' train everyone to dispose of their litter properly, and leave the manufacturer's civil rights alone".

Haha, I think that if something like this is a problem that needs fixing, then it would in fact be a much bigger attack on freedom (and cost to the taxpayers) if we had inspectors on beaches and in camping areas fining people for disposing of plastic cutlery, to create a sort of social engineering thing where we ensure everyone is a Stepford Wife who disposes properly of their toxic plastic stuff made by "Bastardcorp", who's civil right to make and sell toxic crap, because it's the cheapest option, needs to be respected.

e.g. the fewest people you inconvenience the more of a "free" solution it is. And in this case, telling manufacturers that they cannot use certain materials, which cause the waste problem, limits the freedom of the fewest people the least. Manufacturers are still free to use other materials, and the consumer would still be free to buy and dispose of the products as they see fit. It would certainly be more "free" than having "fork inspectors" at recreational sites.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Folly on May 29, 2018, 04:04:17 am
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/fbi-kindly-reboot-your-router-now-please/ (https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/fbi-kindly-reboot-your-router-now-please/)

VPNFilter is infecting people's routers. Everybody panic!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on May 29, 2018, 02:28:01 pm
A foreign state trying to obtain the power to shut down the internets / civilian communication systems for most users is worrisome.
It's close to an act of war.
The fact that it's digital and doesn't require foreign operatives to work in your country makes it less obvious.
But what they are trying to do can be compared to, say, if 70 years ago, foreign spies were caught planting dynamite under most telephone poles and telegraph lines.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 07, 2018, 05:01:13 am
Valve has put out an official statement (https://www.geekwire.com/2018/valve-will-stop-removing-controversial-games-steam-unless-illegal-straight-trolling/) saying that they're no longer going to intervene in controversial games unless the content is straight-up illegal or is a scam.

This is a good move from both gamers and Valve's position. If Steam actually went through and starts removing legal "sexy" games to "sanitize" their store, then it wouldn't end there. Various other groups would get the message that you can harass steam to remove violent content, gay content, pro-choice content, "satanic" content, pretty much every type of content. There would be a lot of "think of the children!" stuff to justify it.

Steam would then become a de facto censor, and whenever anything unliked by anyone's zeitgeist slips through the cracks, suddenly you get angry mobs asking "why Steam why?", with people on the Left demanding certain types of content be blocked, and people on the Right demanding certain other types of content be blocked.

It would end in a situation where Steam's right to remove your game, becomes Steam's obligation to ensure that only "tasteful" games that can't possibly offend anyone are the ones that get approved. Effectively, Steam would end up railroaded into a situation where they only support games which are "teen safe" and don't contain strong political messages of any stripe, because the whole company becomes controversy averse.

Valve/Steam are perfectly right to say it's not their job to dictate what people can or should like or create.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on June 07, 2018, 11:24:21 am
I agree as long as they give us ways to filter specific content from the Steam store page.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on June 08, 2018, 11:30:24 am
Oh, so if I want to start paying for porn I now have the option to do it on a gaming social media platform, so everyone I play Dark Souls with can see what fetishes I have?

That's pretty Nito, I guess.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on June 08, 2018, 12:31:54 pm
Valve has put out an official statement (https://www.geekwire.com/2018/valve-will-stop-removing-controversial-games-steam-unless-illegal-straight-trolling/) saying that they're no longer going to intervene in controversial games unless the content is straight-up illegal or is a scam.

This is a good move from both gamers and Valve's position. If Steam actually went through and starts removing legal "sexy" games to "sanitize" their store, then it wouldn't end there. Various other groups would get the message that you can harass steam to remove violent content, gay content, pro-choice content, "satanic" content, pretty much every type of content. There would be a lot of "think of the children!" stuff to justify it.

Steam would then become a de facto censor, and whenever anything unliked by anyone's zeitgeist slips through the cracks, suddenly you get angry mobs asking "why Steam why?", with people on the Left demanding certain types of content be blocked, and people on the Right demanding certain other types of content be blocked.

It would end in a situation where Steam's right to remove your game, becomes Steam's obligation to ensure that only "tasteful" games that can't possibly offend anyone are the ones that get approved. Effectively, Steam would end up railroaded into a situation where they only support games which are "teen safe" and don't contain strong political messages of any stripe, because the whole company becomes controversy averse.

Valve/Steam are perfectly right to say it's not their job to dictate what people can or should like or create.
This is most certainly not right. Negligence is not the right way to run a store. Because when you do have a store, you are responsible for what is being sold there. Would you say that a store that sold clothes made after SS uniforms, or merchandise that outright does not work is perfectly justified if they just went and said "it's not illegal, so we won't do shit"? Because Valve is letting shit like Active Shooter and AIDS Simulator, not to mention the "games" that don't even have working .exe files in the first place. So no, they are not justified because it is their job to police their own store, not to sanitize visual novels but to keep out the actual garbage.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 08, 2018, 01:06:47 pm
The statement makes it clear they're going to go after trolls/scams, but not to censor content because some people don't like it. Which is a perfectly reasonable position. By making it clear they're not trying to act as the content police they in fact can focus all their infringement resources on those very same scams and trolls you mentioned.

The problem with expecting Steam to filter content based on taste such as the example of SS uniforms in a clothing store, is that Steam are not a retail chain, they're the #1 platform for almost every creator out there. If they start saying they shouldn't have this game because Nazis (Wolfenstein) and they shouldn't have these other games because sex (visual novels and dating sims) and they shouldn't have that other bunch of games because they're controversial "mass shooting" games (GTA, Postal and "Active Shooter" type games) then effectively, they're acting as a censor, not a store. If one store didn't stock those things, you'd have the choice to go to a different store. But Steam is almost a monopoly.

Additionally, if they check every title before it's launched then that costs time and money (don't be ridiculous that it wouldn't), which they must of course charge to the devs. That would mean the $100 launch fee would be say $1000 instead, and probably not refundable. Sure, big games could afford that, but a lot of indie devs would be pushed out of the market, to places like itch.io which are the wild-west compared to Steam.

Steam relies on users to report infractions because that's the only way the whole idea is remotely economically viable. Without that, you've got Nintendo, with only AA and AAA games being viable to be launched on the platform.

Requiring someone to download, install and play every new Steam game (and naturally, to test every patch) would be ridiculously expensive. How many different system configurations should they maintain for this testing procedure? How many staff should be allocated to directly do this, and what sort of tech support do they need to get their job done. Could you certify a typical game in one man-day, e.g. 8 hours of total company time? Two or more man-days per game (you have tech support, reports, management and services) would be more likely. With 20 games per day, you'd want about 40 people in your testing department, and say your total departmental costs per person are ~$150k per year. That's $6 million per year in testing costs, split over 7000 games, so the cost (now non-refundable) to check each game becomes a set fee of say $1000.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on June 08, 2018, 01:48:14 pm
So no, they are not justified because it is their job to police their own store, not to sanitize visual novels but to keep out the actual garbage.

Everyone's definition of "actual garbage" will defer. See for example the rather vocal people who say that anything in an "anime" art style should be burned.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Doomblade187 on June 08, 2018, 01:51:56 pm
Reelya, I'm not overly informed on Valve's revenue, but I'm fairly sure their profits are well over 6 mil. Forbes estimates yearly shop revenue to be 300-400 million. (Quick Google result), and as such, even if they didn't raise the fee, they could afford it. It seems that they don't want to. Now, I agree that being a content policer is a hard and controversial job, but it's not unaffordable for them, based on your estimate.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on June 08, 2018, 02:12:14 pm
...Part of the problem may be that valve are unwilling to hire new people who would not be given movable desks. So if they hired 40 people to make sure that games work, those 40 people would rather go work on HL3 or whatever instead of wade through shitty asset swap games and VNs. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Dorsidwarf on June 08, 2018, 07:27:26 pm
I thought the new valve measures were basically a drop of their existing ban against explicit sexual content to bring their actions in line with their new “we don’t filter out on offensive material” policy.

I mean valve does check all the “real” games that are submitted to Steam, it’s only Direct/Greenlight/whatevertheyrecallingtheindiesubmissionprocessnow that’s a Wild West morass of self-policing
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 08, 2018, 08:44:52 pm
Oh god I forgot people play around with executables on their systems.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on June 09, 2018, 02:13:47 am
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on June 19, 2018, 05:54:13 am
SABOTAGE!!! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44531777)

So, where on the spectrum do you think that is that on the line from concerted industrial espionage through to a concerning case of paranoia?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 19, 2018, 10:49:01 am
Musk displays clear signs of supervillain tendencies and is in denial of this so he takes amoxivillain to fight it, he must have missed a dose.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on July 05, 2018, 10:32:54 am
I thought of putting this in the funny thread, but while it's funny in it's own way, it's not really a joke.

Facebook algorithm marks part of the US Independence document as 'racist. (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44722728) The part that triggered it was a section that said 'merciless indian savages'. Basically, the algorithm didn't recognize it as being part of a historical document.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Sheb on July 05, 2018, 11:40:50 am
Well, I mean, algorithm works. Now it just need to be able to understand when it's acceptable to write racist things (like when citing historical documents).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on July 05, 2018, 11:46:37 am
Even then, it'd depend on the context, and AI is far from being able to discern things with such sublety.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 06, 2018, 04:54:51 pm
I've been seeing on the news that, at least in the US, there's a huge shortage of licensed large truck drivers.  Like 18-wheelers and such.

My hypothesis about it has been that the young people that could be truckers these days are confident that self driving vehicles are around the corner, so its not really worth diving into that industry.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 06, 2018, 05:12:22 pm
It's not because of self-driving vehicles. The shortages are because there's increased labor demand in that area, not decreased labor supply.

https://www.newsday.com/business/truck-job-shortage-1.19621828

Where there are actual shortages, that's more to do with the low unemployment rate at the moment than any future self-driving truck thing. This is a trend that's been occurring longer than self-driving vehicles have even been a common thing mentioned in the media.

Also, the training costs and pay-off time for getting a commercial truck driving license are much lower than for something like going to college. Something far-off like self-driving trucks doesn't really come into the picture where you get a license and a few months later you're earning $1000 a week.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on July 06, 2018, 08:28:08 pm
While truck driver shortages have been slowly building for a while, the massive shortage that has recently occurred and made news is because of new laws that came into effect a few months ago.  There have been legal limits for forever on shift lengths, forcing drivers to rest, but they were poorly enforced.  What's new is trucks are now legally required to be equipped with digital meters that log driving times.  Unsurprisingly, despite tons of warning and delays in implementation of the law, this requirement knocked out huge swathes of the workforce, who simply failed to outfit their vehicles in time, and still haven't done so.  The logistics industry is practically allergic to preparation, and aggressively resistant to change.  Its dominated by bullheaded 70s style business people who can't read an email without printing it first and think that leadership is about yelling a lot.  The typical adaptation cycle is to ignore a problem until it shows up on their reports, complain at workers that the reports aren't clean and hand out discipline until 3/4 of the workforce quits in frustration, then promote whoever is left among the remaining 1/4 and tell them to fix whatever caused that to happen.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on July 06, 2018, 08:40:36 pm
The typical adaptation cycle is to ignore a problem until it shows up on their reports, complain at workers that the reports aren't clean and hand out discipline until 3/4 of the workforce quits in frustration, then promote whoever is left among the remaining 1/4 and tell them to fix whatever caused that to happen.

Why bother telling them to fix it? I mean, the 3/4ths already left, and the problem was obviously their fault. Problem solved! And it was all because of your hard work, so you should take a vacation till the lazy bastards among the 1/4th come to you with a totally separate problem to the one that you successfully solved.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 06, 2018, 09:43:08 pm
What's new is trucks are now legally required to be equipped with digital meters that log driving times.
Mild surprise, there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachograph#In_the_EU

Until I remembered how averse to suffering the tyranny of guaranteed annual vacations, public healthcare and other diabolical regulations the 'Merkin population is...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on July 07, 2018, 12:41:33 am
What's new is trucks are now legally required to be equipped with digital meters that log driving times.
Mild surprise, there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachograph#In_the_EU

Until I remembered how averse to suffering the tyranny of guaranteed annual vacations, public healthcare and other diabolical regulations the 'Merkin population is...

More like the pressure to compete here is so goddamn strong that people will literally drive themselves to the point of near death to ensure their value to employers.  Shit rolls downhill, and truckers are at the very bottom.  Production schedulers hire forwarders, who hire transport brokers, who put out bounties taken up by dispatchers at hotshot trucking companies like XPO, and dead last is the guy who climbs in his truck and actually physically moves the stuff.  That production planner tells the forwarder those auto parts need to get from LAX to El Paso overnight, or the assembly line shuts down and costs millions of dollars - and then threatens to pass on those costs if promises made by clueless salespeople aren't met.  That threat moves right on down the chain to that poor trucker.  Anybody along the way says no to the verbal abuse, and that gets reported straight to their boss.  Which would be fine if there were solidarity, but instead our workplace culture is death cult-like.  Everybody wants to say no, but anyone who does gets quickly made an example of.  So everyone says yes, knowing that they too will be alone if they ever reach their breaking point and rebel.

The sort of talk you're referring to is just cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 08, 2018, 03:16:26 pm
We've been seeing a lot of banking/payment mechanism failures (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44759913) in the UK recently. It's news enough if it's a (whole lotta independent) generic Tech Fail (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-44742582) sorta thing. I'm beginning to think that some of them, at least, are actually malicious meddlings.

(Though they say never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on July 08, 2018, 04:11:13 pm
(Though they say never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.)

I've always thought that this saying is extremely convenient for those truly guilty of malice who want to hide behind plausible deniability.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 08, 2018, 11:55:14 pm
(Though they say never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.)
I've always thought that this saying is extremely convenient for those truly guilty of malice who want to hide behind plausible deniability.
Better a false negative than a false positive; I'd rather see a guilty man run free than an innocent man behind bars.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Tack on July 09, 2018, 12:52:11 am
They’re guilty of incompetence though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on July 09, 2018, 04:09:41 am
If that's a crime then we'd better get around to executing all humanity, then.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 09, 2018, 07:57:10 am
If that's a crime then we'd better get around to executing all humanity, then.

Its treason, then.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on July 09, 2018, 02:55:39 pm
If that's a crime then we'd better get around to executing all humanity, then.

Its treason, then.

A criminal missed-your-mind.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on July 12, 2018, 05:25:03 pm
(Though they say never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.)
I've always thought that this saying is extremely convenient for those truly guilty of malice who want to hide behind plausible deniability.
Better a false negative than a false positive; I'd rather see a guilty man run free than an innocent man behind bars.

Especially since if an innocent man goes behind bars the guilty man runs free anyway.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 12, 2018, 05:35:31 pm
The rain it raineth on the just
And also on the unjust fella;
But chiefly on the just, because
The unjust hath the just’s umbrella.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on July 12, 2018, 06:47:29 pm
(Though they say never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.)
I've always thought that this saying is extremely convenient for those truly guilty of malice who want to hide behind plausible deniability.
Better a false negative than a false positive; I'd rather see a guilty man run free than an innocent man behind bars.

At this point in my life, I don't 100% agree.

For people in positions of authority, this sentiment should be reversed.  The higher the authority, the more people are put at greater risk as the price for offering that benefit of the doubt.  Otherwise, positions of power are easily abusable, and all the more attractive to those who would want to abuse them.  Letting anything an authority figure does go if it can possibly be explained as incompetence makes us all easy victims to malice.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 13, 2018, 01:37:52 am
"Innocent until proven otherwise" is an important pillar of any justice system. Important things should be investigated to find if incompetence or malice truly was the cause (and if it was incompetence, how to idiotproof the system), but until then, nobody can be held responsible.

Besides, if an authority figure uses incompetence as an excuse, honestly or not, is that not reason enough to replace them? In a position of trust, an incompetent person can be as dangerous as a malicious one.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: SalmonGod on July 13, 2018, 01:57:46 am
Besides, if an authority figure uses incompetence as an excuse, honestly or not, is that not reason enough to replace them? In a position of trust, an incompetent person can be as dangerous as a malicious one.

Authority figures don't themselves use it as an excuse, but I hear it brought up all the time when discussing the actions of politicians.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on July 13, 2018, 03:49:07 am
Besides, if an authority figure uses incompetence as an excuse, honestly or not, is that not reason enough to replace them? In a position of trust, an incompetent person can be as dangerous as a malicious one.

Authority figures don't themselves use it as an excuse, but I hear it brought up all the time when discussing the actions of politicians.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, run for office.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: sluissa on July 14, 2018, 08:16:39 am
(Though they say never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.)
I've always thought that this saying is extremely convenient for those truly guilty of malice who want to hide behind plausible deniability.
Better a false negative than a false positive; I'd rather see a guilty man run free than an innocent man behind bars.

At this point in my life, I don't 100% agree.

For people in positions of authority, this sentiment should be reversed.  The higher the authority, the more people are put at greater risk as the price for offering that benefit of the doubt.  Otherwise, positions of power are easily abusable, and all the more attractive to those who would want to abuse them.  Letting anything an authority figure does go if it can possibly be explained as incompetence makes us all easy victims to malice.

"Innocent until proven otherwise" is an important pillar of any justice system. Important things should be investigated to find if incompetence or malice truly was the cause (and if it was incompetence, how to idiotproof the system), but until then, nobody can be held responsible.

Besides, if an authority figure uses incompetence as an excuse, honestly or not, is that not reason enough to replace them? In a position of trust, an incompetent person can be as dangerous as a malicious one.

Except that's not how things work. It is easier to fire someone from a position of authority than it is to send them to jail. You don't need beyond reasonable doubt evidence to take away a person's authority like you do to take away their freedom completely.

Contracts and labor laws vary, but in the case of a politician there's an extremely easy way to take them out of authority built into the process. (Or rather should be easy. Politicians have learned to game the system).

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 15, 2018, 10:39:37 pm
Except that's not how things work. It is easier to fire someone from a position of authority than it is to send them to jail. You don't need beyond reasonable doubt evidence to take away a person's authority like you do to take away their freedom completely.
Then fire/impeach them for incompetence, not for malice. 'Incompetent' doesn't mean 'innocent'. But it doesn't mean 'criminal' either. If and when something suspicious happens in politics, we investigate it, and only then make our judgment and do what needs to be done to resolve the issue. Politicians are dirty as all hell, but we need to find the real dirt on them rather than the imagined, just as with anyone else.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: syvarris on July 24, 2018, 04:29:16 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/business/china-surveillance-technology.html

Apparently China's making great strides in physical surveillance and facial recognition, in order to create a national panopticon dubbed, perfectly, "Skynet".  Especially considering the name, it seems to be half progaganda, but it's still a remarkable system regardless.

Googling around, seems to be relatively old news, but I find it fascinating all the same.  I'm very curiousi to see just how dystopic it'll get in the future, or if it even will.  Maybe complete surveillance of everything everywhere in a nation won't be abused?  :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 24, 2018, 05:17:31 pm
It won't be abused for illegal suppression if the purpose is legal suppression
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on July 24, 2018, 09:10:59 pm
inb4 80% of China starts wearing juggalo face paint.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: sluissa on July 24, 2018, 10:57:27 pm
I guess they've solved the inherent racism of electronics. (https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-x-racist-apple-refunds-device-cant-tell-chinese-people-apart-woman-751263)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 24, 2018, 11:11:58 pm
That took me down the google rabbit hole and ended up back at the Feminist Glaciology thing:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0309132515623368
Quote
Glaciers are key icons of climate change and global environmental change. However, the relationships among gender, science, and glaciers – particularly related to epistemological questions about the production of glaciological knowledge – remain understudied. This paper thus proposes a feminist glaciology framework with four key components: 1) knowledge producers; (2) gendered science and knowledge; (3) systems of scientific domination; and (4) alternative representations of glaciers. Merging feminist postcolonial science studies and feminist political ecology, the feminist glaciology framework generates robust analysis of gender, power, and epistemologies in dynamic social-ecological systems, thereby leading to more just and equitable science and human-ice interactions.

And no, I'm not claiming that feminism is invalid or that feminist causes aren't valid.

Feminist Glaciology, brought to you by a bunch of men (check the names on the paper: three men ... and a woman who was listed last) who have never been near a glacier.

The point is, people like this co-opt the "feminist" label and apply it to post-modern attacks on mainstream science, when in fact it has absolutely not relation or bearing to anything to do with women's rights. They're just stealing the Feminist label as a tool of attack and a shield from criticism: "you think out theory is bullshit? Why do you hate women so much?!?" And the attack on "gendered" science and knowledge is just a way of setting up a fallacy: it creates a false equivalency between "male" science and "feminist" post-modern anti-science deconstruction.

But the fact that the whole attack was put together by men who don't study glaciers should be the real message. There's also the "sexist airconditioning" debate, where it being a few degrees colder in an office is sexist because women hate the cold so much. I don't know if they realize, but glaciers are really, really cold. So if office airconditioning is a great injustice, I can't see women lining up to join glacier science, regardless of how feminist the framework becomes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on July 25, 2018, 03:55:09 am
(check the names on the paper: three men ... and a woman who was listed last)

Meaning she's the corresponding author, and therefore the principal investigator. It's not sexism, it's an authorship convention.

A really widespread one, too. How do you think authorship order works?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 25, 2018, 04:08:12 am
(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Erin_Winstanley/publication/317151067/figure/fig1/AS:498219911258112@1495796291460/Authorship-credit-comic-from-Piled-Higher-and-Deeper-by-Jorge-Cham.ppm)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 25, 2018, 04:33:53 am
(check the names on the paper: three men ... and a woman who was listed last)

Meaning she's the corresponding author, and therefore the principal investigator. It's not sexism, it's an authorship convention.

A really widespread one, too. How do you think authorship order works?

Well if that's the case then they picked a pretty under-qualified person to lead the project.

https://around.uoregon.edu/content/glaciers-melt-more-voices-research-are-needed

Quote
When UO historian Mark Carey hired Jaclyn Rushing, an undergraduate student in the Robert D. Clark Honors College, to explore how nongovernmental organizations were addressing melting Himalayan glaciers, he got an unexpected return.

Jaclyn Rushing is the fourth author I was talking about, and Mark Carey is the first name on the paper. If Jaclyn Rushing is meant to be the "principal investigator" as you state, then it seems the whole basis of the attack on glacier science is from one undergraduate student, then they brought in a bunch of male faculty members to fix it up and make it legit. Also, the entire thing is just wall-to-wall buzzwords:

Quote
Feminist and postcolonial theories enrich and complement each other by showing how gender and colonialism are co-constituted, as well as how both women and indigenous peoples have been marginalized historically (Schnabel, 2014). Feminist glaciology builds from feminist postcolonial science studies, analyzing not only gender dynamics and situated knowledge, but also alternative knowledge and folk glaciologist that are generally marginalized through colonialism, imperialism, inequality, unequal power relations, patriarchy, and the domination of Western science (Harding, 2009).

Yeah, maybe it was all the work of one undergraduate humanities student. When someone starts to appeal to "alternative knowledge" and lambasts how "colonialism" and "patriarchy" stops regular glacier scientists from listening to "folk glaciologists" all leading to the terrible "domination of Western science", then there aren't any original or useful ideas to be had here.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on July 25, 2018, 09:15:44 am
Yeah, maybe it was all the work of one undergraduate humanities student. When someone starts to appeal to "alternative knowledge" and lambasts how "colonialism" and "patriarchy" stops regular glacier scientists from listening to "folk glaciologists" all leading to the terrible "domination of Western science", then there aren't any original or useful ideas to be had here.

Honestly if you're looking for original or useful ideas in a free-to-publish open-access journal with an impact factor of 6.5, you're not going to have a very good time. It looks like the PI on this was actually Carey, and the journal just likes to be a weird little special snowflake and reverse its author listing.

It really does look like Rushing just came in all miffed about sexism in environmental science and wrote a classically terrible undergrad paper, which Carey funded and sent off to this gutter-tier journal without much review -- which would ordinarily be surprising isn't weirder than a lot of his other publications.

Incidentally, if the term "principal investigator" is new to you, and it seems like it is, a lot of the process of science is going to be somewhat opaque to you. It might be worth doing some reading.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Folly on October 05, 2018, 02:09:01 pm
Do you run Windows 10? Do you like to keep your operating system up to date? Well you might want to hold off for a while...

Windows 10 October Update is randomly deleting user documents and profiles. (https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/5/17940902/microsoft-windows-10-october-2018-update-deleting-documents-issues)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on October 08, 2018, 06:45:49 pm
Good thing I found a way out of updating ever
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 08, 2018, 06:56:40 pm
For this specific bug in the Windows 10 update you'd be kind of a goose to be really caught out by that.

The update issue only affected those who manually force the update instead of leaving it to the automatic updater. Once the bug reports started coming in, Microsoft pulled the update, but it never got to the point that it was being automatically rolled out. Anyone in the habit of manually updating things should really be doing full backups however, so they really have themselves to blame if they muck the system up.

the moral is to leave the system well alone unless you know what you're doing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Rowanas on October 09, 2018, 10:39:44 am
For this specific bug in the Windows 10 update you'd be kind of a goose to be really caught out by that.

The update issue only affected those who manually force the update instead of leaving it to the automatic updater. Once the bug reports started coming in, Microsoft pulled the update, but it never got to the point that it was being automatically rolled out. Anyone in the habit of manually updating things should really be doing full backups however, so they really have themselves to blame if they muck the system up.

the moral is to leave the system well alone unless you know what you're doing.

Even then, if you can help it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on October 11, 2018, 01:38:04 pm
They can parkour (kinda) now! Nowhere is safe!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LikxFZZO2sk&feature=em-uploademail)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on October 11, 2018, 01:54:00 pm
They can parkour (kinda) now! Nowhere is safe!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LikxFZZO2sk&feature=em-uploademail)
Eyy, Atlas! Don't worry, Atlas is a cool dude. People pick on his dog a lot though...

It's funny seeing just how agile and balanced these things are getting nowadays, compared to a few years ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0TaYhjpOfo).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on October 11, 2018, 01:59:00 pm
Would be cooler if it parkour'd off the walls, though I can't tell if it has the ankle articulation for that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on October 11, 2018, 04:14:11 pm
The real question is "and how long did it take them to properly program in that sequence of moves?"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Rowanas on October 11, 2018, 04:18:03 pm
I swear I saw Atlas do that ages ago, but given that Boston only put it up today, I guess not.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on October 11, 2018, 04:21:24 pm
I swear I saw Atlas do that ages ago, but given that Boston only put it up today, I guess not.
He's hopped up and down things before, and done 180 spins mid-air. Might be that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Rowanas on October 11, 2018, 06:25:47 pm
I swear I saw Atlas do that ages ago, but given that Boston only put it up today, I guess not.
He's hopped up and down things before, and done 180 spins mid-air. Might be that.

Yeah, probably those.  Well, it's nice to see our glorious robot overlords making... leaps and bounds!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 12, 2018, 01:54:02 am
The real question is "and how long did it take them to properly program in that sequence of moves?"
I think they favor programming in bits of movements and letting the bot work out the right sequence.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on October 12, 2018, 10:27:40 am
The real question is "and how long did it take them to properly program in that sequence of moves?"
I think they favor programming in bits of movements and letting the bot work out the right sequence.

I didn't know the tech had advanced far enough to allow that. I thought that such AI was still cripplingly limited at best. Cool to see the advancements in tech, though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on October 12, 2018, 10:31:36 am
The real question is "and how long did it take them to properly program in that sequence of moves?"
I think they favor programming in bits of movements and letting the bot work out the right sequence.

I didn't know the tech had advanced far enough to allow that. I thought that such AI was still cripplingly limited at best. Cool to see the advancements in tech, though.
Check some of Boston Dynamics' other vids, they show off things like their dog/mule bot reacting and adapting to terrain in order to remain upright and stable. Poor thing gets kicked a lot...

Atlas is their attempt at doing the same with a bipedal robot, which is considerably more difficult. Atlas used to only be able to function with a ceiling-mounted "harness" of sorts, but they've got him more-or-less independent now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on October 12, 2018, 01:23:06 pm
Hell there's a recent vid of the dog navigating random construction sites in Japan without much trouble, going trough tight spots and up and down stairs. They're planning for a commercial version sometime next year with a bunch of different possible applications. In the aforementioned video it had an arm attachement with some cameras on it that it used to inspect bits of the construction work.

Edit:

I for one welcome our new dancing robot overlords :D (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHBcVlqpvZ8)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on October 18, 2018, 02:25:37 am
Curses, I'd just found that video myself and was about to post it here... Foiled again!

...which is, coincidentally, the only appropriate response to being stabbed by a fencing sword.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 18, 2018, 01:17:39 pm
We kick and shove them, and they dance for us?

Gods above and priests below the robots are going to murder us all when they wake up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 18, 2018, 01:22:57 pm
We kick and shove them, and they dance for us?

Gods above and priests below the robots are going to murder us all when they wake up.

It was inevitable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 18, 2018, 03:21:00 pm
We kick and shove them, and they dance for us?

Gods above and priests below the robots are going to murder us all when they wake up.

It was inevitable.

Will there be refreshments?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrh_Axpg9Ns&t=6m52s
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on October 18, 2018, 05:48:23 pm
What is that garbage? notFem!Shep=crap!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on October 18, 2018, 05:52:02 pm
Fembot though....
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 19, 2018, 06:53:18 pm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181018151044.htm

Quote
Like fingerprints, no 3D printer is exactly the same. That's the takeaway from a new study that describes what's believed to be the first accurate method for tracing a 3D-printed object to the machine it came from. The advancement could help law enforcement and intelligence agencies track the origin of 3D-printed guns, counterfeit products and other goods.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 19, 2018, 06:56:56 pm
If they are looking for wobble differences (from stepper motors), then incorporation of a simple thermal resistor on the printer, and allowing a variable temperature in the printing room, will make this fingerprinting method very shady.

:P

(A stepper motor is usually what is used in cheaper SLA based printers. It works by having two energized sets of coil windings working against each other, with subtle modulation of one or both currents into the motor causing the motor to move one way or the other in fixed increments.  By introducing a randomly variable source of noise into the current regulation for both sets of windings in the stepper motors, you will change how responsive the motor is, and how likely it is to "drift" a little on move commands. This will cause the infill patterns they are citing to become HIGHLY variable, based on ambient temperature of the build room.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 26, 2018, 01:40:11 am
OK--

The library of congress has implemented a MUCH needed exemption to the DMCA, granting radical new authority for end users to hack their devices for the purposes of maintenance and repair.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xw9bwd/1201-exemptions-right-to-repair


(I am sure the trumpists will be all over this like flies on shit though.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: RadtheCad on February 19, 2019, 05:58:32 am
(I am sure the trumpists will be all over this like flies on shit though.)

Why would they?  I didn't get the impression they were especially big fans of big tech companies and company copyright in general.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 19, 2019, 12:08:10 pm
I think the point was that they'll be all against the exemption (and Big Gubmint, stopping the everyday grassroots Tycoon from doing their God-given rights to capitalism)? But this being a little bit necroed maybe someone can find follow-up news to indicate any actual reactions.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on February 19, 2019, 12:15:50 pm
I think the point was that they'll be all against the exemption (and Big Gubmint, stopping the everyday grassroots Tycoon from doing their God-given rights to capitalism)? But this being a little bit necroed maybe someone can find follow-up news to indicate any actual reactions.
But this is the automation thread; can't we get a bot to do that?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: da_nang on February 19, 2019, 12:25:34 pm
If they are looking for wobble differences (from stepper motors), then incorporation of a simple thermal resistor on the printer, and allowing a variable temperature in the printing room, will make this fingerprinting method very shady.

:P
Pretty sure it will be useless once people start 3D-printing their own 3D-printer parts. If any of the variables that determines the "fingerprint" is a piece of replaceable (and possibly 3D-printable) hardware, then it's not going to be accurate in the long run. The reverse-engineering of that error propagation would be a nightmare.

A "fingerprint" is only useful if it never changes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: RadtheCad on February 19, 2019, 12:26:33 pm
I think the point was that they'll be all against the exemption (and Big Gubmint, stopping the everyday grassroots Tycoon from doing their God-given rights to capitalism)? But this being a little bit necroed maybe someone can find follow-up news to indicate any actual reactions.

Oh.  Didn't check the date.  Whoops.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on February 19, 2019, 12:43:16 pm
We're just really bad at keeping this thread alive. This and the science thread.

Which should really tell you something, but I refuse to learn anything from this situation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: RadtheCad on February 19, 2019, 12:55:50 pm
Well, while I'm necroing anyway-

I think the point was that they'll be all against the exemption (and Big Gubmint, stopping the everyday grassroots Tycoon from doing their God-given rights to capitalism)?

Surely the libertarian, anti-big goverment position is to abolish copyright entirely?  It's government regulation backed by force.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Cthulhu on February 19, 2019, 01:15:55 pm
It is.  If you like copyright, IP, or corporations youre not libertarian and should turn in your yellowsnek bumper sticker
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 19, 2019, 01:57:42 pm
Not wishing go go Political, in this thread but "save me from Oppressive Government by the Government oppressively enforcing <measure> upon everyone else" is selective Libertarianism at best. And par for the course.

As to Bot automation, they can be forgiven for being unsubtle, but then it seems lazy* humans didn't properly review the automated decisions (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47278362).   (* - having heard people speak about being manual reviewers of questionable material, it's more likely unwillingness to spend more time exposing themselves to more of the same of what they fear it will be, and trust the algorithm with a click rather than definitively divine its innocence.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on February 23, 2019, 11:16:36 am
Wasn't sure where to put it, but Microsoft workers are... less than pleased at learning that their AR headset will go to the US military (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/22/microsoft-protest-us-army-augmented-reality-headsets?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other) instead of groups like medical professionals.

Comment sections in any place talking about this are particularly salty and ultra-patriotic, to no one's surprise.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on February 23, 2019, 07:27:08 pm
I certainly understand their reservations, but Microsoft isn't exclusively providing the technology to the military, is it?  If it still gets used for peaceful purposes, that's something.

I'm less sure of AR's future than I was a few years ago, but it still feels like this kind of thing is inevitably going to end up with military applications, even if it's not Microsoft providing it.  Not that it's much consolation to Microsoft's employees.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: RadtheCad on February 24, 2019, 01:29:54 pm
It'll end up in Windowstm DeathbotsR powered by corpses, anyway.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Akura on February 24, 2019, 03:04:25 pm
Quote from: the article
the company would “support talent mobility” for employees who did not want to work on certain projects “for whatever reason”.

Pretty much corporate-speak for "either you do it or gtfo", right?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 24, 2019, 03:10:07 pm
Uh, no. It's saying that employees are welcome to switch over to other projects if they don't like this one.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 24, 2019, 05:06:15 pm
The dedicated Microsoft Bob™ support-by-fax department!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Teneb on February 24, 2019, 06:07:52 pm
The main issue here is that employees who didn't want their work to go toward purposes of war worked on a project, and only after they had a prototype up and running did Microsoft go and decide to turn it into a means to make soldiers kill better.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on February 25, 2019, 02:51:31 pm
Holy crap, I was just going to knock southern CA for their crazy high electricity use in the summer for cooling and then I did the equivalent energy use it takes to heat my house in MI.

We used 20MCF of natural gas in January-Feb. That's roughly 190kW-hr/day.  I mean - I know we had several days in that period with a high temp of about 0°F (-18°C) and we heat to about 68°F (20°C).  I guess 7.9kW is not *that* much heat loss over a 40-Kelvin temperature difference for something the size of a house but, yow, I feel bad about how I used to think my house was pretty energy efficient because our electric use is way below the national average, using only about 6750 kW-hr/year.  Natural gas though... ugh!  28400 kW-hr/year or so! Yikes...

In the summer we only cool to about 75-77, but that's only about 10F or so; mostly just for humidity. That runs about 20kW-hr/day over baseline.  So about 0.83 kW for a 5-Kelvin delta in the summer.  That's pretty good for back of the envelope actually now that I do all the numbers; (40/5 x 0.83 is about 6.5, which is within 20% of that 7.9kW number I got for gas, which wasn't rigorous at all esp. since I didn't subtract out hot water/cooking which is also nat gas).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: thompson on February 25, 2019, 05:04:51 pm
Air conditioners are efficient as they work as heat pumps moving heat from one place to another. Energy is only required for pumping the heat, so higher than 100% efficiencies are possible. With natural gas you burn it and the energy released by combustion IS the heat, so 100% is the maximum efficiency. Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on February 25, 2019, 08:07:10 pm
I suppose I did kind of mix analyses - but I think it's still valid for back-of-the envelope.  For instance, I didn't subtract the fan motor energy use from my AC consumption in the summer, but I also didn't include that in my heating number.  I don't think our AC unit COP is that great though; it's 25 years old.  That means the mechanical losses in the radiator fan and compressor itself probably dominate - I do know the radiator fan motor is a 3/4 HP (~550W) rated fan.

Regardless - I have to say I'm embarrassed at how I didn't really grasp the order of magnitude of energy consumption associated with our natural gas furnace.

It also goes to show the surprising cost difference between natural gas and electricity - our natural gas is about 1/5 the cost of electricity per kW-hr.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2019, 01:15:56 am
Wasn't sure where to put it, but Microsoft workers are... less than pleased at learning that their AR headset will go to the US military (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/22/microsoft-protest-us-army-augmented-reality-headsets?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other) instead of groups like medical professionals.

Comment sections in any place talking about this are particularly salty and ultra-patriotic, to no one's surprise.

Microsoft unveils a new improved "clippy" with a 100-round capacity.

"it looks like your trying to kill some terrorists ..."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 26, 2019, 01:20:10 am
I SEE THAT YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO TERMINATE HUMANS. WOULD LIKE ME TO HELP BY TERMINATING ALL HUMANS?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 26, 2019, 01:39:29 am
I SEE THAT YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO TERMINATE HUMANS. WOULD LIKE ME TO HELP BY TERMINATING ALL HUMANS?

>Y
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 26, 2019, 02:01:47 am
Now we just wait patiently for the blue screen of life to save us from the replicating deathbots.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 26, 2019, 03:02:19 am
There's no safety from the paperclip maximizer.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: RadtheCad on February 26, 2019, 07:08:36 am
There's no safety from the paperclip maximizer.

Just build a paperclip minimiser and put them in a room with each other and some wire.  It's like you people have no imagination or something.

Build some replicating lifebots to counter the replicating deathbots, while we're at it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 26, 2019, 10:02:49 am
So uhm... there's a new phone coming out this year...

https://www.gsmarena.com/energizer_power_max_p18k_pop-9573.php

It's uhm.... Different. (look at the thickness. No, 30mm is not a typo.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on February 26, 2019, 10:15:46 am
3 goddamned centimeters. 3. With an already-large 6.2" screen. Just hope the batteries don't have a tendency to explode.
Also, WTF? Energizer's getting into the phone business now? I thought Nokia making a comeback was strange enough.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 26, 2019, 10:20:16 am
Hey, smartphones are becoming more and more versatile with each passing year: phone, internet browser, calendar, alarm clock, cudgel...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on February 26, 2019, 10:22:07 am
...improvised explosive...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2019, 10:25:20 am
https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/2/26/18241117/energizer-power-max-p18k-pop-huge-battery-phone-mwc-2019

"This 18,000mAh battery has a phone in it".

However, this article says it's 18 mm think. This has clear use-cases however. The company says the battery will last a week. Heck, they say it can playback video for 48 hours on one charge.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 26, 2019, 10:27:38 am
https://www.phonearena.com/news/phone-with-biggest-battery-in-the-world-energizer_id114065

No, totally 30mm thick.  They have pictures.


Also, this mod needs updating now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GhODn4FRoE
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on February 26, 2019, 10:29:02 am
So a better way to think about this, is to think of this as the final evolution of taping a power bank to your phone?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 26, 2019, 11:57:13 am
It doesn't have an audio jack. I've lost interest.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 26, 2019, 01:50:38 pm
I care about phones to the extent of how awesome their camera is, I've now played around with a modern enough phone to appreciate shit like depth sensors, ToF wizardry, and mixtures of telephoto/variable aperture doodads under a spookily intelligent layer of glass.

If I'm carrying a brick like that around I expect it to have a fucking hammerspace DSLR type lens setup emerge at a flick of the wrist.

Flicking my wrist to activate the camera, btw, is like the least mentioned awesome feature of recent phones, chop twice for a flashlight, twisttwist for camera, no clue if there is more because those two cover what I need 99% of the time so far.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 26, 2019, 02:41:20 pm
It doesn't have an audio jack. I've lost interest.

Its 3cm thick and they still couldn't fit a jack.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 26, 2019, 02:43:16 pm
Well YEAH-- its ALL BATTERY in there.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 26, 2019, 02:47:53 pm
Well YEAH-- its ALL BATTERY in there.

The battery certainly can't power my headphones now can it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 26, 2019, 02:53:08 pm
And yet, they somehow managed to fit a side-mounted fingerprint reader on it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on February 26, 2019, 08:22:07 pm
I care about phones to the extent of how awesome their camera is
you're one of those people...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 26, 2019, 09:35:32 pm
Finally, a phone with the dimensions that a phone ought to have. Extra Thick.
Never really understood the point of going thinner and thinner when they could have stayed the same size and put beefier hardware in there. At some point being thinner doesn't make it easier to handle and just makes the whole thing structurally weak.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 26, 2019, 11:58:22 pm
Extra THICC!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on February 27, 2019, 12:27:14 am
Given the, er, extra THICC and wide (6.2" diagonal) nature of the phone, a good one-handed mode is gonna be a must if it's supposed to be used like any other phone.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 27, 2019, 12:45:39 am
I care about phones to the extent of how awesome their camera is
you're one of those people...
Not likely, monarch. I can't recall the last time I actually made a call on a phone, mobile or not. This is probably for the best because the urge to slip into my gravelly 'hey whadda yawant s'worth fekkin' mekkin dis thing start beepin like one a those fuckin things what makes a lot of noise n' den blows da fuck up, yanno dem guys what screams admiral akbar or some shit?' trucker voice grows ever harder to resist every time I even think about answering a phone.

I've never sent a text though I love the gesture/swype type keyboards even if they only get used to enter my email address and a subject line when I email pictures to go over on my computer later.

The rinkydink rear camera on the galaxy core prime we had for a while was just barely capable enough to enjoy using it now and then.

The moto g6 upgrade does the 12 MP+5 MP camera setup for the selective focus shit that is goddamn magical the first time you play around with it and realize you didn't actually fuck up taking the picture even though it only left crisp focus on a little piece of a table in the foreground, since you can just go in and dick around seeing how much composition can change just by a hint of super near foreground blur and full on bokeh background to set off your crisp as fuck target.
Even taking into account the limitations of the software and hardware setup as it stands it's far and away the best camera I've ever played with, and I remember dicking around with some of the lower end 35 mm cameras and shit like 20 years ago before getting to click off a roll with a fancy ass bastard that had lenses out to there and a full metal frame.

Had I the disposable income to dive into shit like the DSLR ocean years ago I would have done so happily, but we're on a family phone plan as is so I may as well steer upgrades towards phones with better cameras than I had, what else am I going to do with a fondleslab? Surf the web? Dick around on some bullshit freemium version of digital crack? Start twattering so I can call the president a cunt?

Nothx.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 27, 2019, 01:00:18 am
No silly.  You install something like exagear, scummvm, or dosbox, then play some old classic titles on the bus or something. (anything that does microtransactions can go get fucked. Old school is the best.)

(Has the original starcraft installed on his S5 this way with exagear. Works a treat.  APM is a bit low without a keyboard, but for single player fun, it's not bad.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 27, 2019, 01:10:15 am
HP custom computer equipment, needs return-to-base collection (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47377707),  is anyone here able to swing by?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on February 27, 2019, 04:43:04 am
Oh hey, servers in space. That's a really good idea, 'cause it's really cold in space so the computers will always be kept cool.

That's how a vacuum works, right?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 27, 2019, 04:52:40 am
But what if cosmic rays cause it to gain sentience? Then the computer could destroy us all just by dropping bricks from space!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: RadtheCad on February 27, 2019, 05:30:59 am
Or by dropping rocks from the moon!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on February 27, 2019, 06:54:46 am
Don't mind me, just some hands-on geeking out (https://www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/hololens-2-hands-on-this-feels-like-practical-magic/) with Microsoft's AR headset.

No word on Clippy's (Magazinny's?) caliber size or what his war face looks like, but there's definitely some fun tech stuffed into this thing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on February 27, 2019, 11:16:00 am
I care about phones to the extent of how awesome their camera is, I've now played around with a modern enough phone to appreciate shit like depth sensors, ToF wizardry, and mixtures of telephoto/variable aperture doodads under a spookily intelligent layer of glass.

If I'm carrying a brick like that around I expect it to have a fucking hammerspace DSLR type lens setup emerge at a flick of the wrist.

Flicking my wrist to activate the camera, btw, is like the least mentioned awesome feature of recent phones, chop twice for a flashlight, twisttwist for camera, no clue if there is more because those two cover what I need 99% of the time so far.
I use chop for let there be light a lot actually, it's really convenient when I'm riding my skateboard and I need to turn it on while still looking where I'm going, when I ride side streets at night I need drivers to be able to see me and it lets me turn my light on safely
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 27, 2019, 01:34:18 pm
(I just press any keypad key on my phone. It remains locked, but lights up to tell me that I need to <whatever> to unlock it, which is enough light to help me see* and be seen by**. Ironically, there's an LED torch in the handset, separate to the screen, but it is (de)activated by holding down the 5 key (having a handy raised bit to the button to feel by touch except that it doesn't do anything to turn the LED on/off while locked, so I have to do the unlocking (see*!) light it up, use it for as long as required and then if the deliberately short lock-again time-out has occured unlock again to hold the key to turn the torch off again. So I just use the inch² display light, refreshing it back on when it decides I've been told it's locked for long enough and goes dark again, usefully heralded with a short period of dimming.)

* assuming I have faced it away from me, and not just destroyed my night-vision!
** holding in whichever way best acts as a light-beacon.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 27, 2019, 09:12:28 pm
Using neural networks to predict wind turbine output up to 36 hours in advance.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/alphabet-subsidiary-trained-ai-to-predict-wind-output-36-hours-in-advance/

EDIT: also, some AI researchers made a text-generating bot based on 40 GB of reddit posts. The model has 5 billion parameters. however, they released a stripped-down version with only 117 million parameters, and arstechnica fed in some sample text from, e.g., Trump speeches to see what the thing comes up with:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/twenty-minutes-into-the-future-with-openais-deep-fake-text-ai

Somehow it's mock Trump speech turned into a mock slice of life / romcom anime plot summary halfway through the text.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on February 28, 2019, 05:20:54 am
That's not the one that was "scientists developed a text generator that was too dangerous to release", is it? I saw the headlines a while back and immediately got turned off by the outrageously clickbaity title.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 28, 2019, 09:47:46 am
Much apart from the "(Editor's note: We recognize the headline here, but please don't call it an "AI"—it's a machine-learning algorithm, not an android)." which is a well-meaning correction but also wrong, I very nearly incapacitated myself when it got to the bit with the GOATs.

Recovered a bit, but just taking a break, before starting to read test #3 about the Osprey.

ETA:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 28, 2019, 10:52:56 am
So... I was sensibly chuckling over the self-aware comment about it all being confusing.

Then I get to the next page, scroll down and under a sample of Trumpian nonsense I read:

FADE In

GOAT DICK IN THE BOY T-HAULUS

GOAT DICK IN THE BOY T-HULUS

I could barely read further because I was in full on convulsive laughter already, and it just got worse as I scrolled down to the repetitions of GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-etc.

The first few sample text images didn't really catch me, though the civil war one was a chuckleworthy start.

Then I noticed the line about "I am not sure if it matters which of the two rings we accept this day" and I'm picturing Bilbo explaining this shit like "supposedly one of them is like fucking mega evil and turns you into a creepy puppet of this fire eye god who lives by a volcano and makes you invisible or something, so if you pick that one, don't put it on... though I can't tell which one is the evil one because they both look exactly the same... not even sure if these are the right rings, also this is a letter apparently" and I've folded over in painful paroxysms of violent wheezing coughing laughter.

It took a while to calm down and then I see shit about an estimated 400,000 people die from tranfusions every year... I mean, we aren't like totally sure exactly how many, but as far as guesses go, this is one.

I was able to chill just long enough to see "over-fatal events such as heart attacks, stroke or stroke-related strokes" and I couldn't even laugh properly anymore, there was just this weird sound like someone strangling a small child who inhaled a lot of helium and started coughing... I got dizzy because I couldn't breathe properly, and apparently the moisture landing on my knees was not all tears like I thought, as at some point my nose began running uncontrollably before I was even able to look at the screen long enough to try and read it out loud for the missus, which turned me back into a wheezing dripping drooling mess again.

My shoulder and neck are sore and I think I bit my cheek.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on February 28, 2019, 11:23:08 am
Quote from: The Most Advanced Human-Like Text Generator Ever Developed
GREAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT-GOAT- GOAT


Looks good to me, boss!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on February 28, 2019, 11:33:51 am
The text generator sounds like my brain's raw and unfiltered datastream, in that case. Utterly incoherent, but by repeatedly processing it, there's a hint of a coherent message within it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2019, 06:13:03 am
It's always tricky to decide if something belongs here or in the science thread, but anyways...

20/4 Smoke yeast erry day. (https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/03/forget-growing-weed-make-yeast-spit-out-cbd-and-thc-instead/?amp=1)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 03, 2019, 06:29:26 am
So, get CBD/THC yeast, bake bread with it, and... hmm.
Yeah that sounds great. Friendship ended with hemp, yeast is our best friend now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2019, 07:12:40 am
So, get CBD/THC yeast, bake bread with it, and... hmm.
Yeah that sounds great. Friendship ended with hemp, yeast is our best friend now.
That sounds like one of those things that wouldn't be fatal, but you'd definitely die.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 03, 2019, 07:48:07 am
Well yeah, that's true of everything.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on March 03, 2019, 07:57:10 am
But to what degree is it true? Rather, how long does it take for a thing to kill you on average?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: sluissa on March 03, 2019, 09:51:46 am
Toast bread erry day.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2019, 10:11:59 am
Toast bread erry day.
Absolutely TOASTED.


Well yeah, that's true of everything.
Was thinking more of the non-lethality combined with an overwhelming and imminent sense of "oh fuck I'm dying".


But to what degree is it true? Rather, how long does it take for a thing to kill you on average?
As long as it takes...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on March 03, 2019, 10:20:16 am
As long as it takes...
Life can be decently long, 70 years, 80, 90. Hell, some even reach 120 years.
Torture is intended to be long and drawn out.
Does this mean that life is torture? /s
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2019, 10:23:34 am
Does this mean that life is torture? /s
Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on March 03, 2019, 10:31:32 am
Sure, but I thought the point was that you're not supposed to get too hung up on that. That, or I'm gonna wake up in the morning and just regret every single word in the previous sentence as I feel years of regret just pile on me. Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 03, 2019, 05:20:42 pm
Well yeah, that's true of everything.
Except rolling a save vs Death which we're getting closer to doing nowadays, making Star Trek that much more horrific. "Well sorry, we've got the technology to accidentally turn you into a child after dismantling you at a fucking subatomic level or some bullshit, we can just produce shit from energy and information, including solid light, but you're getting to be around 200 years old so there's just nothing else we can do but watch you degenerate mentally and physically until you can't even perform your useless job making you worthless because we're somehow retaining protestant work ethics despite having the makings of a post-scarcity anarchist utopia on our hands, so once you're done suffering go ahead and keel over before we chuck your meat into space because we're dicks like that."
Does this mean that life is torture? /s
Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.
TO THE PAIN!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 04, 2019, 03:08:58 am
Can't degenerate physically if we have proper replaceable parts, which we'd probably need in order to live forever anyway. Mental degeneration can probably be circumvented, though probably with diminishing returns past a certain point. There's always just deleting most of your memories to stabilize things though.

Protestant work ethic is going to run up against what's actually economically efficient and probably lose. Companies / societies that waste resources giving people pointless work to do will be outcompeted by those which don't.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 04, 2019, 04:23:47 am
Can't replace your parts, that would make you like the Borg!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on March 04, 2019, 04:37:00 am
Borg have hivemind-enforcing nanites, though. Without that you're just a regular cyborg, like Robert Cop.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on March 04, 2019, 04:49:52 am
He is a Robert,
He is a cop,
He is a Robert Cop,
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 04, 2019, 05:08:36 am
I thought his name was Murhphy? (ducks)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on March 04, 2019, 05:22:03 am
Nah, that guy's the future of law enforcement.
This Robert guy, he's the furniture of law enforcement!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 04, 2019, 06:00:18 pm
Borg have hivemind-enforcing nanites, though. Without that you're just a regular cyborg, like Robert Cop.
How many regular cyborgs are there in Star Trek though?

Fucking Geordi needs a goofy ass attachment linked with an interface when the whole multi-spectral vision thing should just be what you get after replacing your eyes with Eyes that look exactly the same as you want them to look but which you can Open to view other wavelengths and overlays and so forth.

Hell, we know they can replace parts really well because they've deborged people, but for some reason none of the post-borg folks seem to ever say "hey, can you just leave that awesome eye implant and my multi-tool hand socket in place along with the force field generator?" because... apparently it's better to be as not!God made you? Human and flawed and weak and fragile and dying slowly.

Actually I wonder something else, why does Geordi ever need a tricorder? Same with Data, what kinda shitty android is he that he is still limited to slow ass reaction speeds like human defaults, can only manage a few Tflops, and has PB of storage? Oh but hey, he can bend a bard of tritanium or some shit, wow!

I get that they were trying to make a show with broader appeal and so forth and the Culture was just in the early formative period as a setting but I was never so disgusted and horrified at presentations of the future as I am after reading the expansive tapestries of possibility guys like Banks and Baxter put forward.

We've got weird ass gadgets like this being put out there nowadays: https://www.techradar.com/reviews/huawei-mate-x

Smartphones and tablets were already star trek setpieces, this one-ups the show entirely doesn't it?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 04, 2019, 10:54:58 pm
Well, there's a whole species of them on planet byanus...

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bynar

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 04, 2019, 11:26:30 pm
presentations of the future

Who ever said Star Trek was about the future? It's always been about the present; they have to give the Soviets ridged foreheads and laser guns to sell merchandise, but the ship runs on nonsensical technobabble and dramatic explosions precisely because the technology isn't important enough to the plot to make it internally consistent.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 04, 2019, 11:41:13 pm
word bro.

The creator produced the show to be a foil against the prevailing "politics of war" of the 60s and 70s. He presented a fictional "how military operations COULD be" in stark contrast to the "KILL ALL THE COMMIES!" rhetoric of the era. In addition, he encouraged his writers to take (then) modern events and spin them in new forms for plots of the show.  This is how we got such wondrous things as the space hippies episode (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Way_to_Eden_(episode)). 

Inane technobabble? Oh, for sure!

Case in point-- how exactly does dilithium crystal somehow manage to survive direct exposure to antimatter?  (the technobabble suggests that it somehow is able to redirect all the enormous quantities of photons and hard neutrons produced by the reaction so that the energy can be harnessed, but really does not explain how. Considering that it would just be a pretty innocuous looking metallic prism, (and a highly reactive one at that, keep away from water and oxygen kids!) with a pretty low melting point.. this just does not make much sense at all.)

The romulan microsingularity engine makes much more sense in how it COULD arguably function. (it just has an energy problem. A big one.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 05, 2019, 12:05:26 am
TNG was less "current cold war events recast" and more of a forward looking "how things could be" at least in presentation, last time I checked.

Also Bynars are barely modified and fall into the "can't be human and upgraded" area as badly as the Borg do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 05, 2019, 12:13:07 am
Picard has that artificial heart of his and I remember a DS9 episode involving a diplomat or some other VIP having part of his brain replaced with a positronic computer after an accident of some sort. The whole thing was apparently controversial in-universe (in what way though, I forget), though it was more of an exploration of 'how much is self if part of your brain gets replaced by a computer'.

TNG was less "current cold war events recast" and more of a forward looking "how things could be" at least in presentation, last time I checked.

Also Bynars are barely modified and fall into the "can't be human and upgraded" area as badly as the Borg do.

I suppose they didn't want to go into the cyberpunk realm? Dunno.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 05, 2019, 12:19:49 am
The "cannon" explanation for why humans are so tight-assed about body and brain enhancements, stems from the apochryphal (since no good records seem to have survived) Eugenics War.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Eugenics_Wars


The rationale is that when you make humans smarter, they get more ambitious, and that ambition is often pathologically deadly to not only other humans, but everyone else as well.  This seems to have carried over into a general ban/prohibition against genetic engineering or technologically founded enhancement of humans within the federation.


The REAL reason of course, is to avoid the creation of Mary Sue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

NOBODY likes Mary Sue. NOBODY.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 05, 2019, 12:29:35 am
I think you can have enhanced characters without them turning into a mary sue. Still, despite the Federations ban on such things, pockets did exist like the group in DS9 (including the doc there) who were illegally enhanced and there was that colony which was evacuated due to threat from a comet (why not just blast that comet apart or nudge it out of the way? Or maybe the comet had already impacted and they just needed to get out of there, I forget the exact circumstances.) which experimented with genetics and somehow got away with it.

So, I'd certainly expect it to be found in the underground or in remote places that the Federation doesn't have a huge presence or enforcement on.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 05, 2019, 12:37:03 am
Then there's the research station that made the telepathic kids with the deadly immune systems.. (So if they ever LEAVE that planet, they will cause a mass genocide against every other sentient species just by BEING...)

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Darwin_Genetic_Research_Station

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 05, 2019, 03:39:49 am
Yeah, but that's why I mentioned the Culture, where it's taken for granted that everyone has full rights over their existence, so if they want glands which release drugs for various purposes grown in their body they get them (say you're in a sudden ambush you would "gland Focus" for a slowed down movement sensitive mindstate, or release some Chill if you're on a long trip and trying to kill time) plus things that happen without prompting like painkillers/blood clotting agents/antivenom, if they get bored being a human and want a spin on the wild side they might grow an entirely alien body and move their mindstate into it, which is helped because it's normal to have a Neural Lace woven into your brain to access information and shit like having a backup if you get killed.

These are things that might seem kinda over the top for a baseline background character, but any human in setting is basically just a pet for the Minds which wear the various Ships in setting as bodies.

Is the Enterprise smarter than a typical home assistant these days? Why not? Because the weird overarching shape the series inherited from Roddenberry in the 60's meant posthuman or transhuman were taboo subjects to be afraid of and shunned, with perhaps a token curiosity like Data or Seven here and there.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 05, 2019, 04:01:59 am
For evocative fiction, it is important not to depict a reality that is too far dissociated from what the reader/viewer considers normal.  This is VERY stifling for an earnest futurist, but is also necessary if you want your work to be well received and proliferated by more than just a small following.

Personally, if I found myself in the startrek universe, I would say "Fuck you and your backward notions about what's proper; with one breath you assert that the goal is to better and improve yourself and in the other you assert "But no hanky panky with science and technology! No no, that's bad juju! Screw that. I'm stealing some nanoprobes and a I am hacking the fuck out of this replicator. I'll see you in a few months after I have fabricated and extended my consciousness into a few million bioneural gelpacks and installed myself in a starship I built by doing the fucking obvious thing to do with replicator tech; Von-Neumann probe assisted astro-engineering. Bye now." just before activating the transporter and shimmering out of the scene.


Sadly, that's totally a marty-stu-- But it's also basically what the Minds in The Culture did.  And you gotta admit, watching the federation shit itself over it would be hilariously funny.

Back on point though, it would only be hilariously funny, BECAUSE the federation is so tight-assed about such things.  In the setting you describe, it would just be "Oh, that thing that bob did last week."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 05, 2019, 07:51:41 am
Back on point though, it would only be hilariously funny, BECAUSE the federation is so tight-assed about such things.  In the setting you describe, it would just be "Oh, that thing that bob did last week."

Well, the Culture doesn't like standard von Neumann probes either just because they're boring: once you've met one probe, you've met them all, modulo any errors in replication. Arguably GSVs are big, slow, ideologically diverse von Neumann probes in waiting, although anything that could drive them into high-fidelity replication would be even more boring than that.

TNG was less "current cold war events recast" and more of a forward looking "how things could be" at least in presentation, last time I checked.

Science fiction is always a commentary on the present, though. Pessimistic science fiction, like most post-apocalyptica, is a warning: "Keep on as we've been going and look what terrible things await us!" Optimistic science fiction, of which TNG is a prime example, is an implicit claim that whatever character traits the heroes exemplify will drive us towards some wonderful enlightened future; it's an attempt to say that the arc of the moral universe is long, but eventually it will bend toward these type of people. Being notionally about the future is just a way to magnify the apparent curve of the arc.

There are also just techno-thrillers that speak to power fantasies like the one wierd has outlined for us, but anything beyond that tends to be rooted in the views of the present. Dune's about peak oil and the hazards of over-specializing people, the Culture's a claim that utopia lies in aiocracy because people suck, 1984 and Brave New World are commentaries on how easily we can be controlled by hatred and love respectively, most cyberpunk is either a critique of capitalism or a tsundere love letter to it (Shadowrun) and even most of Verne's work, ur-example of painstakingly researched sci-fi through it may be, uses the technology to give Nemo and Robur and Ardan and so forth a big impressive soapbox from which to expound upon their pessimistic views of humanity.

It's like those "En L'An 2000" postcard things, where everyone's in submarines or airplanes or whatever but they're still in contemporary clothes and doing normal things for all that. TNG is like that; it's the 80s in a starship.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 05, 2019, 07:58:29 am
Cyberpunk: "capitalism is super bad and bad things are cool."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on March 05, 2019, 09:06:35 am
Case in point-- how exactly does dilithium crystal somehow manage to survive direct exposure to antimatter?  (the technobabble suggests that it somehow is able to redirect all the enormous quantities of photons and hard neutrons produced by the reaction so that the energy can be harnessed, but really does not explain how. Considering that it would just be a pretty innocuous looking metallic prism, (and a highly reactive one at that, keep away from water and oxygen kids!) with a pretty low melting point.. this just does not make much sense at all.)
Noting that dilithium isn't Li2, but something else.

Lithium has atomic number 3 (and mass typically of 7, sometimes 6) but Dt reportedly has Z=87. In our table, that's Francium, with estimated melting point of 'warm to the touch', though the most stable 223Fr has a half-life of slightly over 20 minutes. The difference between the "lithium"ness and "francium"ness was always explained by a natural component of the atomic structure being displaced beyond the normal three dimensions of space (and, in certain circumstances, the four of space-time!). It seems to be the only (or most stable) element in this complex-plane "island of stability" so there aren't other di'unobtanium' elements, though given its inability to be directly replicated or atomically fabricated into existence by the tech of the time is shared with Latinum, maybe it's not so alone after all.

A dilithium crystal  is famously indistinguishable to pre-warp civs from quartz, SiO2, so that mineral museums of Earth were 'raided' for it once the truth of its existence was determined. Crystaline dilithium is a mix of Dt with Si and Fe (IIRC, though 'technobabbly', presumably representing the extradimensional component of the 4D matrix) and this presumably creates the compound solid that acts quartzlike enough for normal operation.

When subjected to a certain field frequency (EM?), though, the resonances are such that in delivering a matter/anti-matter mix the crystalline structure is kept 'out of the way' of the streams that it otherwise moderates (without the crystal it'd just be too much instantaneous undirected energy from the annihilation, so it must regulate and disyribute the ±deuterium gases' introduction like a pachinko machine) and allows the energy produced by the mutual annihilation of equal parts of the 2H, only, to create the plasma (from the carefully tuned over-ratio component of introduced positive-deuterium) that is tapped out to be sent off directly to the warp nacelles, or slightly less directly (via the GNDN ducts) to power the ship's other systems (transporters, replicators, lights/doors, the famously exploding command-consoles, etc; but sometimes not the holodeck, because Plot!).

This all requires a carefully (re)configured crystaline structure, obviously, for optimal power, and extended/excessive use can distort the structure beyond usability, so it's not a trivial thing to fire a -1D stream into a (DtSiFe...) matrix. We've barely produced enough -1H (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiproton_Decelerator#ATHENA) for research purposes. No wonder contemporary science hasn't yet quite yet confirmed the undoubted technical accuracy of the currently most forward-looking descriptions of the process, trapped as we all currently are beneath the transparent alum(in)ium ceiling in this field.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 05, 2019, 09:19:09 am
See? Star Trec is totally internally consistant!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 05, 2019, 10:21:04 am
it's not a trivial thing to fire a -1D stream into a (DtSiFe...) matrix.

This is what has always bugged me most about dilithium: it's totally unnecessary, because you can totally fire a beam of antiprotons into a big thin-walled tank of deuterium and get antimatter-catalyzed fusion. That's how most seriously proposed pion rockets work in low-speed mode, of which the most familiar is probably Project Valkyrie. You don't need to moderate the reaction with magic rocks any more than you need to moderate the explosions in the cylinders of your car; the reactants effectively handle that for you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on March 05, 2019, 10:42:02 am
Yeah, but that's why I mentioned the Culture, where it's taken for granted that everyone has full rights over their existence, so if they want glands which release drugs for various purposes grown in their body they get them (say you're in a sudden ambush you would "gland Focus" for a slowed down movement sensitive mindstate, or release some Chill if you're on a long trip and trying to kill time) plus things that happen without prompting like painkillers/blood clotting agents/antivenom, if they get bored being a human and want a spin on the wild side they might grow an entirely alien body and move their mindstate into it, which is helped because it's normal to have a Neural Lace woven into your brain to access information and shit like having a backup if you get killed.

These are things that might seem kinda over the top for a baseline background character, but any human in setting is basically just a pet for the Minds which wear the various Ships in setting as bodies.

Is the Enterprise smarter than a typical home assistant these days? Why not? Because the weird overarching shape the series inherited from Roddenberry in the 60's meant posthuman or transhuman were taboo subjects to be afraid of and shunned, with perhaps a token curiosity like Data or Seven here and there.

Yeah, I think that was a large part of it, The Original Series didn't delve into it, so, later stuff got constrained by it. Wouldn't be surprised if novels and fanfiction dabbled in transhumanism as they're much less constrained by canon as the movies and shows are.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on March 05, 2019, 11:28:43 am
because you can totally fire a beam of antiprotons into a big thin-walled tank of deuterium and get antimatter-catalyzed fusion.
Can you get both sufficient and sustained power out of that?

At Starship magnitudes of energy needs (the amount of plasma needed to use the warp coil(s), especially) can you scale up the antiproton beam magnitude and available annihillatable feed-matter against the force of the initially produced energy that you need to sufficiently energise the remaining feed-matter to energise it?

Maybe you can do a pulsejet-like method of generating plasma pulses like the exhaust gas of a V1 doodlebug, a stocatto variation upon the impulse drive (include Project Orion level of shock absorption?), but warp coils are explicitly known to need to bd kept charged with the plasma for their operation, and can you sufficiently buffer the variable source of plasma as it's piped through the pylons to eventually smooth out the supply to prevent a charge/deplete//vent/charge/deplete/vent cycle?

I can't answer that, even if my accent sometimes sounds vaguely like somebody who could do. And I need to wear optical aids. And I married an east-Asian exobotanist. And I've got a slightly ridged forehead. No, wait. Those last two aren't me. Yet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 05, 2019, 12:56:46 pm
because you can totally fire a beam of antiprotons into a big thin-walled tank of deuterium and get antimatter-catalyzed fusion.
Can you get both sufficient and sustained power out of that?

At Starship magnitudes of energy needs (the amount of plasma needed to use the warp coil(s), especially) can you scale up the antiproton beam magnitude and available annihillatable feed-matter against the force of the initially produced energy that you need to sufficiently energise the remaining feed-matter to energise it?

We can't say how much power a pile of aphysical nonsense requires to do something impossible, so "starship magnitudes of energy needs" isn't a meaningful metric here, and "sufficient" is likewise not answerable without a specific case. In Valkyrie's case, it's enough to keep the tether taut and accelerate the whole ship to 0.92c -- although, again, it's a pion rocket. If you want to use plasma, you need magnetic bottles to contain it instead of just a field to deflect the reaction products as they exit the reactor. The reaction is, however, sustained as long as you keep firing antiprotons into the reactor, and can be throttled by the same means; there's no need for pulses. That's kind of the whole point of the design.

This incidentally gets us to the crux of the problem with dilithium again: it's solving the wrong problem. The limiting factor in nuclear energy has always been the maximum operating temperature of the reactor rather than the power output of the core; annihilating matter and antimatter inside magic rocks to generate plasma doesn't help at all with routing that plasma through the ship (which is kind of like piping already-burning gasoline through your car's fuel lines anyway) or extracting power from it once it's where you want to use it, let alone with storing the antimatter -- or, a larger engineering problem still, generating that antimatter in the first place.

In other words, you can take the magic rocks out of the warp core and everything's still going to work just the same.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 05, 2019, 01:45:44 pm
In other words, you can take the magic rocks out of the warp core and everything's still going to work just the same.
No! I cannae do that, cap'n! She can't take it!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on March 05, 2019, 02:08:13 pm
We can't say how much power a pile of aphysical nonsense requires to do something impossible, so "starship magnitudes of energy needs" isn't a meaningful metric here, and "sufficient" is likewise not answerable without a specific case. In Valkyrie's case, it's enough to keep the tether taut and accelerate the whole ship to 0.92c
It's likely to be sufficiently dissimilar, by orders of magnitude, from this design. If not very trivial (because you arrange a cleber  Alcubierre-type effect of warping with minimal positive and negative mass/energy densities) it's probably a vastly more energy-intensive process. The knowledge we lack is more the nature of the warp-coil operation (if we take as read that they take plasma as 'fuel' to the process, but allowing for a staged conversion within the coils themselves from the raw plasma to the warp field effect).

And operating temperature is probably the core (NPI) of the mixing chamber crystal's problems. By being side-shifted out of the (3D) plane of stream-mixing prevents annihilation of matrix by half* of the fuel (and chemical interaction with the other injected half?), conceptually it certainly acts as a guide to the introduced gasses, to channel them (I'm imagining something like an Alexander Horned Sphere meeting interface, to best approximation, or other dendrally sub-branching wave-guide to optimise the meeting-point of the two fuel-types) and equal force (Pauli? Dipole? London?) must press back upon the crystal, imparting heat-like vibrational modes, including in the given extra-dimensional direction.

(In order not to defelect 'normal matter' out of our plane towards/opposite the shifted off-planeness of the dilithium, it seems to me if must have presence on both sides of reality, to even out the 'sideways' forces. Maybe approx 43.5 nucleonic units (and half of its electrons) of the dilithium are located one side of normal space and the remainder on the other, with an apparent standard influence approximating that of two in-plane lithiums, the same as 'leaky gravity' into higher dimensions has been blamed for various galactic halo inconsistencies. Obviously they'd drag the non-dilithium elements out with them, in both directions, in the 'activated' crystal, but the the two half-amounts of dilithium would be the prime superstructure to the phasing-away process.)

The refinement and shaping of 'raw' dilithium crystal to reinforce the mixing capacity and resilience/heat-sinkedness of the matrix would be an obvious thing to do beyond the proper tuning of the required resonant field and other futuretech 'crystal maintenance' methods demonstrated as necessary (at least occasionally) in canon. Maybe a relatively low energy attempt to generate can operate without such a bespoke crystal by applying tighter control fields over a lower-rate of feeding, but when you start to get it so that "the engines cannae tak' it anymoor" [ninjaed by Kagus!] the heat-like oscillations are overcoming the natural resilience of the crystal at the heart of the process, despite assisted in-situ healing effects (sub-space equivalent of a Scanning Tunnelling Microscope imaging/manipulation process?), and the matrix degrades. Either forcing throttling back or risking catastrophic failure through uncontrollably uneven mixing and energy channelling. But transport the crystal out of there and you have no control over the mixing (apart from "how much you intend to just blndly shove mutually destroying gas into a small space"), and you can't harvest the energy properly and things will go bad for you (either way) far quicker than you can say "Code Zero Zero Zero Destruct Zero".

* Even though it's not half, if you include the plasmaised 'throughstock' of matter.



BTW, surprised nobody has mentioned the Dragon 2, here or on the Space thread perhaps, so I'm happy to discuss this subject in lieu. ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 05, 2019, 02:58:23 pm
I think we're operating under very different definitions of "control" here. If you're firing antiprotons into a hydrogen tank, you really don't care which proton you're annihilating; it's enough to know approximately where most of the annihilation is going to happen, which you know anyway because it's governed by the geometry of the tank (or rather, the gas contained by the tank) relative to your accelerators. Furthermore, if you're trying to heat up your fuel by doing that (and you are, if you want plasma), you don't need to stuff pop sci buzzwords into magic rocks so they can sit in the middle of the chamber, because your fuel's going to moderate the reaction products anyway and you're running the fusion equivalent to a fast reactor.

See, instead of injecting the fuel into a matrix of applied phlebotinium, we can inject it into a matrix of more fuel and get exactly the results we want anyway -- and once we get the plasma out of the phlebotinium/reactor vessel, it's still got all the usual problems with handling plasma, which are way harder than generating it in the first place.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on March 05, 2019, 04:03:18 pm
I'm still wary of the shockwave. Every proton/anti-proton interaction releases energy enough to cavitate the pro-matter medium away from the beam of introduced anti-protons. You don't know or care which ones meet, but it seems to be over-regulating given the effort you took to get the bits to initially meet.

Every matter/anti-matter deuterium interaction 'in the open' maybe contains a better rest-mass 'density', with two nucleons (it is undefined whether it'd be a 'useless' neutron/neutron meeting that just effectively produces fast-neutrons perhaps used as energy carriers, or if it's a neutron vs anti-neutron' element, the latter of which requires us to be specific about the quarks involved in the creation of additional pion reaction products) but might be assumed to be a higher-power equivalent of a hypergollic fuel rocket chamber, but with a mixing chamber formed of material that also not unlike one of the counterpart mixtures.

'Hands-off' channelling of the reagents towards a spread mixing interface, with solid-based (not gaseous) atomic pressures maintaining the hyper-perpendicular guideplane forces in a consistent manner (and away from any surrounding chamber walls) would seem to be a better corralling effect if you need steady energy flow. Perhaps the process is driven by something like a capillary-effect from both sides as well as injection pressure, momentum and whatever other handwavery exists to funnel it all.

Compare a pile of gunpowder lit to fizzle away in the open or a similar amount ignited within an open-ended tube, in the usefulness and intensity of the extracted energy.


For today's world, I could imagine the 'lit pile of gunpowder' method to be useful enough for all energy-purposes we can envisage, including putting the pile in the middle of a room so that the smoke pouring out of a window does useful work without the central flame risking burning the room itself down. If we want to truly harness the power in there, make it a small, tough, flameproof room and the more immediate combustion products can be tapped more explicitly in the manner we need.  The (in canon) suggestion is that's what you need in warp-capable spacecraft (and maybe a miniature setup can do useful CH&P duty even in static installations) and nothing less will work quite so well. When it comes to a technobabble explanation, it's not exactly an illogical projection compared with some of the other stuff ("inverse tachyon pulse", anybody?). And plasma containment isn't so difficult, we imagine, the only surprising thing that they don't fit quite enough "plasma buffers/dampners/fuses" into the power supplies leading to key redshirt-manned bridge consoles!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Folly on March 07, 2019, 09:48:25 pm
Google warns of dangerous vulnerability in Chrome; advises updating browser immediately. (https://www.pcmag.com/news/367015/stop-what-youre-doing-and-update-google-chrome)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 12, 2019, 04:32:03 am
How do we stop global warming? 

Acid rain, of course. (https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/11/solar-geoengineering-climate-change-new-study)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 12, 2019, 05:13:05 am
Wasn't that idea already proposed a couple years back? I still believe that shutting down coal plants and such would be a more efficient way to fight against climate change than causing a volcanic winter.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 12, 2019, 05:24:24 am
I still believe that shutting down coal plants and such would be a more efficient way to fight against climate change than causing a volcanic winter.
Ah yes, but sulphur dioxide is a natural waste product of the fossil fuel industry. One that, under current legislation, is strictly controlled.

So if we were to adopt a new mode of thinking where SO2 in the atmosphere is actually good and desirable, then coal power plants can loosen expensive regulations and maybe even get a little kickback for being so nice and helping the environment!


Still no nuclear power though, that would be irresponsible.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 12, 2019, 05:37:49 am
Those same scrubbers also help eliminate uranium being released in the coal ash. (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/)

SOOOO environmentally friendly!  SOOOO much safer than nuclear! /s

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2019, 03:16:08 am
So, this came up over at Slashdot today.

https://www.technologyreview.com/the-download/613158/microsoft-just-booted-up-the-first-dna-drive-for-storing-data/

The process is slow in its writing operations, and seems pretty limited in the length of dna segments that can be written, but this plus some infamous techniques like CRISPR and some yeast, could make the DEA's job literally impossible to enforce. (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190227131838.htm)

The built-in reader would be useful for ensuring the written gene sequences are correct before mass replication in a flask.


Some pretty dangerous shit could be made with a setup that small.   I am glad it has issues with speed of synthesis, because if this was the combination of inexpensive, fast, and portable, this would be very bad news.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: sluissa on March 22, 2019, 03:49:16 am
DNA stored data...

I think we're going to need some better anti-virus software.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on March 22, 2019, 03:58:36 am
So if I put every post I've made onto a DNA drive, then ate said DNA drive, would I be eating my own words?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 22, 2019, 05:26:43 am
Some pretty dangerous shit could be made with a setup that small.
I don't really understand how this would be any more dangerous than any other compact storage medium, especially when it comes to illegal drugs. We already have small enough media to fit hundreds of gigabytes in the palm of one's hand, and it's not like any customs office asks you to pull out the SD card from your camera to show it doesn't have anything illegal on it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2019, 05:45:52 am
CRISPR/CAS is an enzyme process, that can theoretically be done in a beaker.

The point is that you can perform arbitrary gene sequence synthesis on the cheap, then verify the synthesized sequence, also on the cheap.

this means you can input data that translates to the sequences used for say-- botulinum toxin's pathway-- and insert it into yeasts, then disperse them into the wild.  The results would be horrific.

All kinds of terrible shit could be made with this by people who realize that you can take the DNA this thing generates and drop it in a flask with amino acids and a specific enzyme, and get billions of copies for gene editing with.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 22, 2019, 02:27:59 pm
this means you can input data that translates to the sequences used for say-- botulinum toxin's pathway-- and insert it into yeasts, then disperse them into the wild.  The results would be horrific.
What exactly does the word "insert" entail here? That sounds like the hard part to me.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 22, 2019, 02:37:28 pm
this means you can input data that translates to the sequences used for say-- botulinum toxin's pathway-- and insert it into yeasts, then disperse them into the wild.  The results would be horrific.
What exactly does the word "insert" entail here? That sounds like the hard part to me.
Well it's certainly a lot more difficult to insert when it isn't hard, let me tell you!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 22, 2019, 03:30:22 pm
Fluffy piece on CRISPR/CAS9

https://www.addgene.org/crispr/guide/

Basically, it's a tool to cut a DNA strand at a specific location, so that you can either delete a gene, or insert one.

You would insert one using Homology Directed Repair (HDR), and the like.

The linked article gives a nice explanation.  Since the difficult part is usually the synthesis portion, (you need to synthesize a suitable repair template, as well as a suitable site specific RNA to direct CAS9 to the site you want to cut the DNA for the insertion-- This latter can be accomplished in a dish as well, once you have a validated DNA sequence you have synthesized for it.) and this scary little tool does all that work for you without requiring human intervention in the steps (one of its selling points), you just need to know where in the target's genome you want to make the insertion, and then deliver the goods into the target cell. (there are a number of ways to do that, but meh.)

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 22, 2019, 05:49:04 pm
I understand (roughly) how modern genetic engineering techniques work, but how does the specific method of storing arbitrary data in DNA make drug law impossible to enforce, any more than storing arbitrary data on, say, a thumbstick?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on March 22, 2019, 08:23:43 pm
I think that what wierd is saying is that it has applications for more than data storage. It's a fully automated way to synthesise arbitrary DNA from computer data. Making it easier for any old someone to genetically modify something.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 22, 2019, 08:38:20 pm
I think that what wierd is saying is that it has applications for more than data storage. It's a fully automated way to synthesise arbitrary DNA from computer data. Making it easier for any old someone to genetically modify something.

Yeah, not that it was exactly hard before; gene synthesis has gotten really cheap over the years even without this device, particularly at scale.

wierd is eliding enough difficulties in actually producing arbitrary biomolecules from inserted genes to constitute an entire field of science (that field being synthetic biology) but amateurs have been clutching their pearls over small incremental improvements in biotech for a long time now, since they look bigger when you don't see all the little steps in between. In this particular case, he appears to be suggesting that someone create yeast that can synthesize things like tetrahydrocannabinol, which is...doable but not particularly useful in terms of yield, particularly in a garage setup.

In short, it's not really that much more possible for Bad People (tm) to make Bad Things (tm) with this device than without it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on March 23, 2019, 02:52:32 am
I understand (roughly) how modern genetic engineering techniques work, but how does the specific method of storing arbitrary data in DNA make drug law impossible to enforce, any more than storing arbitrary data on, say, a thumbstick?
Thumbsticks can't synthesize material on their own.

In this particular case, he appears to be suggesting that someone create yeast that can synthesize things like tetrahydrocannabinol, which is...doable but not particularly useful in terms of yield, particularly in a garage setup.
Some drugs are more potent than others.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 23, 2019, 03:39:36 am
Some pretty dangerous shit could be made with a setup that small.
I don't really understand how this would be any more dangerous than any other compact storage medium, especially when it comes to illegal drugs. We already have small enough media to fit hundreds of gigabytes in the palm of one's hand, and it's not like any customs office asks you to pull out the SD card from your camera to show it doesn't have anything illegal on it.

I think wierd's point was that you could easily make yeast that synthesizes drugs, making it harder for the DEA to enforce drug laws, as well as attaching dangerous stuff to microbes that can replicate quickly. The DNa-data-storage technique was the way you get the arbitrary sequence in there to say, make THC yeast or something.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 23, 2019, 04:00:13 am
In this particular case, he appears to be suggesting that someone create yeast that can synthesize things like tetrahydrocannabinol, which is...doable but not particularly useful in terms of yield, particularly in a garage setup.
Some drugs are more potent than others.

That's not really the issue here, since the more potent the compound is (and thus the less efficient the synthesis needs to be) the smaller the quantity that logically needs to be shipped/smuggled/synthesized chemically. In the case of something like botulinum toxin, which seems to be the most common starting point for my-drug-is-deadlier-than-yours pissing contests, you can certainly get yeast to express it, but you can also get C. botulinum to express it or just go get Botox via whatever dastardly means, both of which have a genetic engineering cost of zero.

See, people forget that the bacteria and yeast we work with in lab are deliberately designed to accept foreign genetic material and express as much as possible. That's great for our purposes, but in making them be so accommodating we've inactivated most of their immune systems; they're trivially easy to kill and anything from the wild will outgrow them even before you start making weird demands of their metabolism by inserting useless gene products. While it is hypothetically possible to grow them in a garage environment, it's certainly more expensive than just growing the organism that's already capable of making whatever compound you want, particularly if it's a small molecule rather than a peptide you're after. For all the silly ways that people try to cheaply sterilize media, dirt is still going to be cheaper per unit output, and ultimately that's the metric dictating this hypothetical misbehavior.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 23, 2019, 04:07:11 am
RE: Reelya

Bingo.  The intent is to remove the produced synthetic DNA molecule the device produces, from the machine, then mass replicate it with amplification, and then do your nefarious deeds with it.

That it lets you encode arbitrary data, and produces consistent codon arrangements based on that arbitrary input, means you can program the machine to produce arbitrary USEFUL codon sequences to do many "interesting" things, where what is of interest to some of the people this kind of tech could one day enable are drug cartels, drug cooks, and tin-pot dictators.

Re: Trekkin

Not all people that could be enabled by the advancement and proliferation of this kind of technology are going to be garage tinkerers.  As mentioned, some are drug cartels (which can afford buildings and equipment, but are likely to suffer a lack of qualified workers) or tinpot dictators (which could get access to both of those, but may have reduced access to equipment and raw materials due to sanctions and logistical supply chain problems caused by strife, open rebellion, systemic corruption, etc.)  Either of those can realistically produce a properly contained facility in which to grow the premadonna microbes produced. The danger is in reducing the needs of skilled staff, and of lowering the bars on costs of equipment and development through proliferation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 23, 2019, 04:21:54 am

The danger is in reducing the needs of skilled staff, and of lowering the bars on costs of equipment and development through proliferation.

Oligonucleotide synthesis was never the limiting factor, though; you can get liquid-handling robots, random semiliterate schmucks, or even undergraduates to make whatever oligos you want on the bench in tubes, and nucleotide phosphoramidites aren't prohibitively expensive. The limiting factor is still yield per unit effort, and, like I said, if as an example you want THC, pot plants are good at making it and pot farmers are cheaper than synthetic biologists.

I'm also not convinced the device you posted can in fact make arbitrary sequences; it's entirely possible they're using a biologically incompatible barcoding scheme.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 23, 2019, 06:01:18 am
I think there is a miscommunication here.

I am concerned about this device, and consider it dangerous, because of what it represents, not necessarily it being intrinsically dangerous.

EG, it represents the impetus of disparate market forces converging on very inexpensive synthetic biology synthesis.  (Microsoft is a software company, and the notion that you could integrate GAN based AI into the mix, along with improvements in protein fold prediction and function, gives rise to a potential (and highly desirable by industry) future in which the need for specialist synthetic biochemists becomes lower and lower, and the barrier to entry becomes more political than logistical or economical. 

What I find scary, is that a device for encoding DNA without human oversight is being skunkworked, at a "reasonably" affordable one-off price, (10k) and people are uncaring or unconcerned about the implications of these market trajectories.

Similar kind of dangerous outcome that has already come to pass:

"Why would you be concerned about VoIP tech? Why would you be concerned about falling prices to make phone calls?"

Oh, No reason.  (https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-initiatives/fccs-push-combat-robocalls-spoofing)

(As the cost barrier goes down, the incentive to become a bad actor increases, as there is no cost, and significant areas for gain. The same would be true of vastly expanded synthetic bio tech, with computer assisted synthesis and integration. The costs associated would cease being significant barriers against malicious actors, as their perceived gains would only grow. Eventually, like with Robocalls, the notion of NOT doing the bad things would become laughably naive.  The time to make a stink about it is BEFORE the markets can reach unstoppable momentum-- EG, right now.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 23, 2019, 06:33:29 am
I think there is a miscommunication here.

I am concerned about this device, and consider it dangerous, because of what it represents, not necessarily it being intrinsically dangerous.

Indeed there was:

this plus some infamous techniques like CRISPR and some yeast, could make the DEA's job literally impossible to enforce. (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190227131838.htm)
[...]
Some pretty dangerous shit could be made with a setup that small.

That said, my point was that what it represents already exists and is already available. You can posit additional advances dropping out of the ether that would make this more dangerous, but if you want to spend $10k on a way to make arbitrary gene sequences, the public has been able to do exactly that for about a decade now with paper-based microfluidics. You can similarly posit bad actors with arbitrarily ample resources to handwave away the costs of actually making anything from the DNA machines like this give you, but in that case the cost of one of the cheaper parts of the pipeline is even less relevant.

The technology driving this machine is well over thirty years old at this point, and it's not doing anything new or even more cheaply; what we have here is an expensive machine competing with an inexpensive public-facing service. Solid-phase oligonucleotide synthesis has gotten orders of magnitude cheaper to do en masse, but bad actors don't need to operate on those scales; they don't want to make hundreds of thousands of variants of some bad thing and if they did the cost of characterization would vastly exceed the cost of synthesis anyway.

All this device needs to do, and all it apparently does, is encode information in low-complexity oligonucleotides; that's not gene synthesis per se and doesn't necessarily lead to it, since synthesis-inhibiting secondary structure is much easier to avoid if you can intercalate your data-storing base pairs with compensatory junk regions, even on an ad hoc basis. We already do that without human intervention in scaffolding complex regions for sequencing, as well as in barcoding for next-gen sequencing. It offers no real advantage in solving the harder problem of exactly synthesizing arbitrary protein-coding DNA over any other automatic fluid handler, and those are already publicly available along with the algorithms to optimize reverse translation.

Your disparate market forces already built us better synthesizers for the pharmaceutical industry well over a decade ago, they've been in the lab for years before that, and bad actors can already use them more cheaply than they can this device for the sorts of things you posit. This is just a simpler version for solving a simpler problem.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 29, 2019, 02:43:57 am
Does this go here? I see there's already a DNA conversation happening, but I can never tell which science thread to post in...

Anyways, Scottish Grandma Wolverine (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/healing-powers-no-pain-mutant-gene-scotland-a8842836.html?amp) feels no pain and apparently heals without developing scar tissue.

Scientists: "This is pretty neat!"

Journalists: "Scientists say that this discovery could definitely be used to help surgery patients and other pain cases!"

Also Journalists: *Neglect to mention anything about her healing without scar tissue, which while definitely interesting makes me think it must take a lot longer for her wounds to properly close. Also neglect to really mention anything about how terrifying zero-pain can be, and that gene editing generally isn't considered a practical alternative to anaesthetics*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 29, 2019, 03:17:03 am
A suitable antagonist for the FAAH gene modeled after the protein produced by FAAH-out could be administered a few hours before surgery, resulting in temporary suppression of the pain reception pathway. (but I doubt journalists realize that would be at least 20+ years away, because it would have to first be developed, than proceed through animal model trials, then through phase 1 and 2 clinical trials, and then finally through the FDA approval process after the phase 1 and 2 populations were tracked for long therm effects.... Yeah. That's even assuming a stalwart set of researchers WANT to do that kind of thing..)

See also, the experimental HIV treatments modeled after CCR5 delta 32.  They dont give normal people the delta 32 mutation, they just act to render that receptor useless, like the mutation causes.  They only work while they are in your system.

More interesting is how she does not develop scar tissue.  They identified the novel gene that controls FAAH, but did not mention the novel pathway to suppress the formation of scar tissue.  A related mechanism in older people is the degeneration of collagen scaffolding in body tissues, the pathway for which is also involved in scar tissue formation. (at least in mice anyway. There was an interesting trial with (SDF1) knockout mice that ended up having flawless skin as a side effect. IIRC, they were investigating scar tissue from cardiac events.) I am curious how much collagen and subcutaneous fat this woman retains in her old age.  The loss of collagen in the skin is the leading reason for paper thin skin and the risk for skin tears. 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 06, 2019, 04:50:49 am
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/3d-printed-shrimp-claw-make-plasma?tgt=more

Scientists think snapping shrimp is a pretty cool dude, then they try to snap just like that cool cat.

Cavitation bubbles are nifty.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on April 09, 2019, 04:03:23 am
Double posting, with whatever the fucking fuck this fucklical fuckery is supposed to be (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/04/new-phase-matter-confirmed-solid-and-liquid-same-time-potassium-physics/).

Matter states are just going off the rails these days.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on April 09, 2019, 10:43:32 am
Double posting, with whatever the fucking fuck this fucklical fuckery is supposed to be (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/04/new-phase-matter-confirmed-solid-and-liquid-same-time-potassium-physics/).

Matter states are just going off the rails these days.

Sounds like aka a noncoherent gel, or like, a gel that is really runny or something.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 09, 2019, 11:24:28 am
It made me think it was a form of material on the edge of a state boundary between a solid phase associated with one form and a liquid phase arising from another (like Ice IV being present in other Ice'N' areas of the pressure/temperature diagram due to insufficient ability to enact the change in packing necessary to conform) such that the matrix of resiliently solid material stands like a gothic crypt ceiling as the counter-matrix of 'meltable' material packed within it is more like a store of gravel shoveled way up to the voussoirs.  (It couldn't leak out, as described, because that would imply the pressure is relieved on the 'solid' as well as the 'liquid' forms.)

Or it's an artefact of the simulation used, somehow.

Personally, I like the idea of the transparent sodium. With the 'minor' issue of needing to maintain the temperatures and pressures required, I've decided that this sounds like much more fun than the aluminium version!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: da_nang on May 04, 2019, 05:33:00 am
Firefox is on fire today.

Add-on certification isn't working, so the next time Firefox checks the certification, the add-on will be disabled and possibly removed, since the certification has expired.

Not a good weekend for Mozilla devs.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on May 04, 2019, 06:03:34 am
From the Mozilla Discourse thread about said issue (https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/certificate-issue-causing-add-ons-to-be-disabled-or-fail-to-install/39047/13):
Quote from: TheOne (Andreas Wagner), Add-ons Technical Editor
12:50 p.m. UTC / 03:50 a.m. PDT: We rolled-out a fix for release, beta and nightly users on Desktop. The fix will be automatically applied in the background within the next few hours, you don’t need to take active steps.

In order to be able to provide this fix on short notice, we are using the Studies system. You can check if you have studies enabled by going to Firefox Preferences -> Privacy & Security -> Allow Firefox to install and run studies.

You can disable studies again after your add-ons have been re-enabled.

We are working on a general fix that doesn’t need to rely on this and will keep you updated.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on May 04, 2019, 07:20:13 pm
I hate everything about the internet right now, fuck everything, goodnight.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on May 04, 2019, 07:27:09 pm
What’s the studies system? Firefox’s in-house version of github or something?

Sounds like a botchy way to fix something that shouldn’t have to be done this way, even on short notice. Kudos on them for fixing it within short notice though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on May 06, 2019, 08:08:22 am
Firefox is on fire today.

Add-on certification isn't working, so the next time Firefox checks the certification, the add-on will be disabled and possibly removed, since the certification has expired.

Not a good weekend for Mozilla devs.

Might the suggestions here help (https://forums.informaction.com/viewtopic.php?p=100053#p100053)? Specifically:

    Open about:config
    Turn app.shield.optoutstudies.enabled to true (if false)
    Turn app.normandy.run_interval_seconds to 1
    Change back app.normandy.run_interval_seconds to what it was (21600 for me, YMMV).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on May 29, 2019, 04:28:53 am
Malware-ridden laptop artwork sold for $1.3m (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48444694)

Quote
Because the sale of malware is restricted in the US, whoever purchases the laptop will receive it only once its ports and internet capabilities have been "functionally disabled", according to the auction web page.

That's not how that works and they know it. Guessing they're just banking on the US auditors not knowing that you can remove hard drives?

"It's totally cool officer, we may be selling a nuclear bomb but see, we took the batteries out of the detonator. No problem."

Obviously anyone can go online and get these malwares for free in minutes if you know where to look, but still. Letter of the law, spirit of the law...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Magistrum on June 02, 2019, 08:43:35 am
It makes no difference tough, it is all old malware that can't do anything anymore. These things have a shelf life of months.

I'm not sure why someone would pay for it. Hell, I'll put it in your computer for you for half the price.

As always, there is a relevant xkcd for this too. (https://xkcd.com/350/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on June 03, 2019, 08:01:44 am
It makes no difference tough, it is all old malware that can't do anything anymore. These things have a shelf life of months.

...assuming anyone patches critical systems instead of letting them run/people patch home systems at all (a lot of the people who actually did patch quit, because of the Windows 10 forced update thing).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on June 03, 2019, 08:48:56 am
We've got a Windows XP desktop running somewhere in our office with a modem connection to some legacy system that people connect to using RDP all of the time.  I fear what kind of malware it's susceptible to... and what the security team of the company that bought us is going to think of it when they discover it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 04, 2019, 12:11:33 am
Less tech news but  tech related: is there any way to use a blockchain public ledger type of system so you could voluntarily opt-in to putting your phone in a state where it can't be used for texting and shit while driving, and then could you link it to an insurance plan wherein you get reduced rates by proving you're not a distracted driver?

Am I like, a moron or a genius?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 04, 2019, 12:18:24 am
Not a new idea. Too hard to verify it, even with the blockchain, to use it for insurance purposes. However, there exists an app that sends a prerecorded message to anyone who tries to call or message you while it's active, with the primary idea of setting it while driving or otherwise occupied.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 04, 2019, 01:47:21 am
Don't see how it could be too hard to verify, people can already use phones for shit involving identity, having it do something which requires screen control could be duped but how many of you would even know how to virtualize your entire phonestate sufficiently so you could try to cheat an insurance app just so you can be like "ha ha ha, I'm the stupid" and text while driving anyways?

Smartglasses can detect when you're driving and force you to id yourself as a passenger before reactivating, the same thing in reverse should be more than possible, hell just ask google for the records of your phones location, they have it already.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 04, 2019, 01:59:51 am
There's really no feature of a blockchain that's going to help with that set up.

A blockchain can guarantee that previous blocks can't be edited, because each block contains a hash of the previous block. So, if you try and edit any previous block, it becomes invalid since the next block in the chain now has an invalid hash.

There's no magical way that blockchains can verify the veracity of any data from outside the blockchain, such as what state your phone is in.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on June 04, 2019, 02:02:37 am
A better idea:

Ask the insurance company to provide you an app that locks your phone and disables the ringer when the multiaxis accelerometer detects the phone is in motion.  A simple AI baked into the app could easily determine if you are walking around, vs driving around.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 04, 2019, 02:04:45 am
Having your phone do something which involves updating the public ledger while in motion would do so, and best of all you can get some of that venture capital bullshit by blockchaining it up!

The critical bit would be having your insurance premium lessened by this, mining safe driver coins or some shit.

There are chatrooms you can only access when your battery is <5% and unplugged, this is a possible thing I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on June 04, 2019, 02:17:58 am
A better idea:

Ask the insurance company to provide you an app that locks your phone and disables the ringer when the multiaxis accelerometer detects the phone is in motion.  A simple AI baked into the app could easily determine if you are walking around, vs driving around.

You wouldn't need an AI, but I guess it's next to blockchain on the buzzword bingo.

You would, however, need a way to distinguish drivers from passengers, or drivers who hand their phone to a passenger to run the map, or any of a hundred other things that are going to make the insurers leery of people gaming the system.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on June 04, 2019, 02:28:17 am
AI in the actual academic sense, (EG, a semi-intelligent program that can make a decision based on some weighted inputs). 

Not AI in the buzzword bingo sense. (No need for GANs, or anything.)

(EG, more "1960s chess AI" and less "IBM Watson")
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on June 04, 2019, 03:16:13 am
Distinction without a difference, I'm afraid. AI is a buzzword.  (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8a6b/cb558e264c25274c1605c26e0cf1ff79c825.pdf) It doesn't actually describe anything concrete about the software, just that the creator wants you to be impressed with its complexity. It works great in outreach, though.

However, even in that fuzziest of senses, you neither need nor want anything you could credibly describe as AI here, because anything you have the algorithm do is going to be picked over endlessly in litigation. Similarly, the more parameters you have the algorithm consider, the more likely it is that someone will find some quirk of the logic that looks racist or classist or sexist or something. The first time someone sues over this, which will be the first time it is tried, the lawyers are going to want a concise description of how it works just like a Breathalyzer, and therefore that is the rubric against which to judge the algorithm. You want one parameter operating over a single range. Anything more complicated will make them skittish.

And, of course, it does nothing to solve the actual problem: your idea can't distinguish between driving in a car and just being in a car, which means you're asking the insurance companies to accept less money for what could be, and therefore will be assumed to be, nothing. I'd love to see you make that pitch.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on June 04, 2019, 03:52:42 am
Not so.

Human hands are not nearly as steady as you think they are. Tremor analysis can do wonders when coupled with orientation data.


(that is to say, a phone sitting in a cradle, or on a car seat, will have a smoother dataset than one held in human hands. Additionally, the added jitter from being held in the hands will be fairly regular, since it is predominantly from human heartbeat and respiration patterns, and thus can be picked out even with other sources of noise.)

Picking out those patterns is why you need a simple AI.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 04, 2019, 04:05:50 am
There is one and only one insurance provider which would be likely to pick this up initially: legal minimum providers for whom every potential payout is another sliver closer to bankruptcy.

Being able to prove that their driver wasn't texting or whatever is no doubt valuable to them, and only afterwards could negative publicity be used to get other providers to consider ideas like this.

"The General does this for me, why don't you, Allstate?"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on June 04, 2019, 04:51:25 am
Human hands are not nearly as steady as you think they are. Tremor analysis can do wonders when coupled with orientation data.

I know how tremulous human hands are. Unfortunately, people's phones vary, including in condition, and all the weird postures they can adopt in the car (which adds a suspension and a road's worth of variability, too). There's a lot of noise here, and any attempt to work back to quantify it once it matters has to contend with all the hardware involved having been through a car wreck in the intervening period. Then the system, with all the noise included, has to hold up in court -- and it has to be obvious enough that it will to justify implementing in the first place, no matter what the insurance company thinks bad actors might do.

Amateurs usually skip the parts of engineering that involve quantifying what happens if we're wrong and how likely that is, but I'd argue they're the most important ones.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Craftsdwarf boi on June 04, 2019, 05:22:32 am
Or modify the black box so that it is even more orwellian.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on June 04, 2019, 12:01:39 pm
Your phones already track where you are, listen to casual conversation, and in many cases know what you want before you know  you want it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Craftsdwarf boi on June 05, 2019, 06:54:24 am
Even if one removes the battery, or post-shutdown?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 05, 2019, 11:11:45 am
Having your phone do something which involves updating the public ledger while in motion would do so, and best of all you can get some of that venture capital bullshit by blockchaining it up!

The critical bit would be having your insurance premium lessened by this, mining safe driver coins or some shit.

There are chatrooms you can only access when your battery is <5% and unplugged, this is a possible thing I'm talking about.

This doesn't many any sense, why don't you read about how crypto works?

First up, there's no need for a public ledger here. This scenario would be much more efficient with a database. Public ledgers are for when you don't have a trusted authority that can keep the data. The very fact that you're saying there's an insurance firm involved means it would be better kept as a database by the insurer. Additionally, volatile state is a poor choice for a blockchain.

Secondly, coins aren't just awarded for random activities, they're awarded for processing transactions for other people. The idea that coins are a purely random reward that can be for anything is a common misconception. Coins represent the processing fee. If you gained the coins for running the app, the everyone's phone would have to store the entire blockchain, gigabytes worth of data and growing ever longer the more everyone drove. That would be an n-squared level problem of data storage.

The way it actually works is that a very few percentage of people mine coins on systems which store the zillion-gigabyte blockchain public ledger. You can't do this on a phone, the ledger is just way too large, and taking in all the data to make new blocks would overload your phone's network connection - if 1 million people use the blockchain then every mining node is receiving constant communications from all 1 million users, all the time. The people willing to do that are the ones who get the coins, because they're giving up processing time and storage space to maintain the system. Then, you have the app users. App users do not have a copy of the blockchain whatsoever.

Plus, there's the fact that blockchains can't handle high volumes of data, and they're especially bad at fitting things into real-time. So, if you want accurate timestamps for like a million people, then blockchain is the worst possible option. Just have the insurance firm have a database with real-time reporting. Databases are a fucking million times faster than blockchains for retrieving an individual's records. For me, for example, to find out how many Dogecoin I own on a new computer, I have to scan the ledger for about 1 week just to get up to the current head, and that's not mining or storing the ledger, that's just skimming each block to see if my account has a transaction in it. For a maintained database, you can jump on a browser and ask "what's my account balance / state" and have an answer in seconds. For blockchain, you need to wait at least hours if not days to get the same query answered.

For the "I am driving now" idea the problem is that with a blockchain, to say whether you are driving or not, then the thing needs to scan the entire blockchain from the first block onwards, a series of "started driving, stopped driving, my velocity is X now" events from day 1 of the blockchain, and you have to read through *everyone else's data* at the same time. It's sequential data, there's no parallelism. This is a very poor fit for the needs of a system that stores someone's driving history: say you didn't drive for 1 week, then you still need to read past all the other blocks representing everyone else driving to get to the next time you drove.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 13, 2019, 11:11:05 pm
Great little 2 part video, how to design and build a working VGA monitor compatible video card from components

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7rce6IQDWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqY3FMuMuRo
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on July 30, 2019, 03:45:24 pm
https://gizmodo.com/scientists-have-created-a-prosthetic-arm-that-lets-pati-1836669048/amp

Fuckin' augs...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on July 30, 2019, 11:28:09 pm
https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us (https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us)

Fuckin' dis-augs...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 31, 2019, 05:55:30 am
Similarly, the more parameters you have the algorithm consider, the more likely it is that someone will find some quirk of the logic that looks racist or classist or  sexist or something.

That occurred with, I think Amazon, who fed a lot of employee performance data into an NN and then trained it to read resumes and estimate how viable hires were. Turns out that it was flagging women as worse hires, and people said the algorithm is biased. However, the algorithm was only doing what it was programmed to do: estimate how much performance different people would have. Women are much more likely to take time out of work (family commitments, parental leave) therefore they don't end up with the same performance metrics down the track, on average, And that's a particularly strong signal, stronger than for instance whether or not you went to Harvard.

The AI was in fact performing properly, it just uncovered uncomfortable truths about the structure of the modern workplace and family commitments, which no amount of affirmative action hiring can really address.

The end result will be that they remove any mention of gender from the resumes, then feed them into another AI and get an output, which will solve the problem by sweeping it under the carpet and obfuscating what the algorithm is actually doing. Such an algorithm could probably guess the gender of the applicant pretty accurately (that's what NNs are good at doing, estimating hidden variables) and mark down the applicant based on that. But by removing the explicit mention of gender, you merely obfuscate what the algorithm is doing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on July 31, 2019, 06:52:25 am
There have been cases where they just forgot to train the AI against non-"cisgendered white people", so sometimes the algorithm is biased :P Though that's because of the inherent unconscious bias of the people who fed information into it to train it. Likewise in the case above the algorithm isn't so-much biases as highlighting the inherent sexism in society which things like affirmative action are intended to address (e.g pressure businesses into offering equal available maternity leave for both partners, providing nursery areas etc). There's a whole wide conversation about how to go about solving that particular problem though.

https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us (https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us)

Fuckin' dis-augs...

It's a tricky one for GitHub. They are an American-owned business based in America and doing business with Americans. So by American law, they can't do business with Iranian businesses. Or, as it turns out, even give advanced warning (seriously, they checked). GitHub are allowed to host non-profit open source projects for free though it seems, but not support Iranian businesses.

The best they can really do is find ways to tell the spirit of the law to go fuck itself, whilst following the letter of it. Still allowing them some access (which is harder to do than a blanket IP ban, which would be the lowest effort approach) is probably the closest thing to that they could even find.

This does highlight another way in which current business laws and politicians still really don't know how to deal with this whole "global interconnected network" thing, since it just makes everything worse for everyone on all sides.

(Okay, some of them know how they want to handle it: Break it and make it go away so their imaginary lines and the physical goods that cross them matter again. And the people and their dangerous thoughts and ideas and knowledge about what the rest of the world is doing or what their state is doing with or to the rest of the world can stop crossing their imaginary lines and getting their good little sheep all riled up. *soviet national anthem starts playing* Rise up! Rise up and cast of the shackles of the oppressors! We have nothing to lose but our restraining fields!).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 31, 2019, 07:11:48 am
There have been cases where they just forgot to train the AI against non-"cisgendered white people", so sometimes the algorithm is biased :P Though that's because of the inherent unconscious bias of the people who fed information into it to train it. Likewise in the case above the algorithm isn't so-much biases as highlighting the inherent sexism in society which things like affirmative action are intended to address (e.g pressure businesses into offering equal available maternity leave for both partners, providing nursery areas etc). There's a whole wide conversation about how to go about solving that particular problem though.

That also doesn't necessarily solve the 'problem'. Parental leave, if optional, will almost certainly be about 95% taken by women (that's what happens even in places like Sweden, for the optional component of leave), and there is in fact a positive correlation between generous parental leave and the gender wage gap: more generous leave = higher wage gap, because more generous baby-making allowances encourages women to have more babies, and have them younger, none of which are positively correlated with career advancement. Offering flexi-time and paid leave isn't going to get women into higher levels: they're competing against male workaholics who don't take flexi-time or leave. It's like saying you want to train 'part-time' to be in the olympics.

Sure, better parental leave options are 100% a good thing, but it's foolish to assume that offering it will improve all metrics for female employment, such as the gender wage gap. That's kind of a sacred myth now: that any change that benefits women will magically make all metrics for all women improve. Choices are always about trade-offs, and offering more choices in one direction will probably make the 'stats' worse in the other direction.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on July 31, 2019, 07:14:56 am
Sorry, I meant intended to help address. Didn't mean to imply it by itself solved the problem. Affirmative action is primarily a counterweight against societies inherent biases.

For example, you'd also need to work to fix the current social pressures that make it so women are the ones who are more likely to be the primary caregiver for the children when such care giving is a task that can be performed perfectly well by any gender. Which means removing the current bias, conscious or not, towards the idea of a man being judged by his ability to provide for his family, since again: It needn't be the job of a male and to leave the idea that it should be woven into the fabric of society only damages all parties involved.

Affirmative action needs to be a part of a huge long term path to address these problems with society, not a solution in itself.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on July 31, 2019, 07:15:43 am
Sounds to me like they need to mandate leave for fathers, if the aim is to correct the wage gap, and the performance divide.  The AI is just crunching raw numbers; dads who keep working are truly being more "Productive" than the moms who stay home.  Dad needs to bond with baby too, whether he knows it or not.

(of  course, that would still have a wage disparity, just not a gendered one. It would cause a "Productivity difference" between people with kids, and those without.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 31, 2019, 07:31:28 am
That might fix the wage gap, but worsen the actual financial situation of those families. e.g. real families make a decision that one person is going to work more, and the other will go part-time and take care of the kids more. They make these decisions based on what's best for their family overall. By forcing each family to exactly take parental leave 50/50, then clearly in any specific case, your forcing families to make less optimal financial decisions than they would have, if you didn't meddle. There's a very low chance that this will actually benefit any real people, even if it 'fixes' the wage gap stats.

e.g. right now most families decide that one partner will go 100% for their career, while the other will tank their career, so they have free labor for the child-raising. By forcing 'equal leave' your saying "well why don't you both fuck your careers, but only half way?" The competition isn't the spouse, it's the people who never had kids and keep gunning their careers at 110% capacity. Forcing fathers to take leave, when they as a family didn't decide that was a good choice isn't going to somehow fix things.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on July 31, 2019, 07:34:34 am
And more often than not the decision is made for the male to work because the male already earns more, and the male already earns more because men are paid more because men take less maternity leave because men are paid more so the women take the longer maternity leave because...

Insert speech about needing to break the wheel etc etc here :)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 31, 2019, 07:37:41 am
A big part of that is that men and women don't make choices to go into the same careers. Men are much more willing to bet everything on careers which aren't 'family friendly'. Try taking maternity leave on an oil rig.

Trade-offs are a big thing here that are often overlooked. Women choose careers which are conduicive to taking leave. Those are non-monetary benefits. Non-monetary benefits are always a trade-off with monetary benefits. If, for example, your company says it'll pay for free massages and saunas for everyone, that's not free, it's ultimately coming out of your paycheck. The same with flexi-time, paid leave, a childcare creche, etc. Those are benefits which are costs to the company, which ultimately are paid for by the employees as lower wages. Any non-financial perk is always a trade-off with the hard currency in your pocket. Think about a job such as sysadmin where the company is allowed to call you in at 3am in the morning, because something broke and must be fixed ASAP. Not many women are going to do that job, and you can bet they pay high $$$$ for the shit the employee must put up with. Jobs where you need to keep 'upskilling' even in your spare time, or are on call all the time, those are the ones that don't have a lot of women in them and pay a lot of base $$$$.

A good example here is that they've consistently found that self-employed female doctors make much less than self-employed male doctors. They just don't choose to work as many hours. And that's in self-employed practice, so there is no "employer". That's all about choice. In fact, pretty much every self-employed sector of the economy, or free-lance, contractors, entrepreneurs, specialists, etc, have a far higher "gender pay gap" than any sort of wage-based earnings. So it's kinda hard to see how the whole thing is caused by "employer bias" at a fundamental level.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on July 31, 2019, 08:11:11 am
Personally I'm not arguing employer bias, I'm arguing societal bias. Huge difference :)

Society is inherently biased in the way which women and men are socialised which produces the above scenarios, and that's what ultimately needs to be addressed and what the end-goal is to fix. Things like affirmative action is a tool in that belt, a method of applying pressure on certain areas to be more conducive to change and a way of applying a bandage to the biases whilst we work on removing them from the wider system.

(Although things like work-from-home and flexitime can actually result in greater efficiency in some industries, so there's an independent argument for them anyway depending on the field)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 31, 2019, 01:45:41 pm
I'm not sure that "societal" bias is the one size fits all explanation for all that, either. The underlying assumption there is that equal outcomes is the default expectation, but society's "bias" gets in the way.

That underlying assumption has little empirical evidence, and it's rather a large and implausible claim to make without strong empirical evidence to back it up: we have many measures that show thing X and thing Y have different outcomes, and many ways in which thing X and thing Y measurably differ. you say they're exactly the same and all our perceptions / measurements are just faulty. That's a big claim. Two things which act and seem different can be different in many possible ways, they can turn out to be exactly the same in only one way.

In fact, look at the most equal and prosperous societies, they don't in fact show a reduction in the gender-divide in industries, they in fact show an increase in the divide. more freedom of choice does not in fact lead to a reduction of gender-correlated choices, rather the opposite.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/

We could then say "sure, but those gender equal societies still have gender-roles, so the fact that the trend is opposite of our proposed model is just a blip, and the 'true' unfettered data just needs us to double-down on <stuff that's clearly not working like our theory says it should>" and by that point, you more or less are operating on the principle of religious faith in the idea rather than testable hypothesis with predictions.

Most proposals that would plausibly reduce the gender divide almost all involve stripping people of choices - e.g mandatory parental leave for fathers. And forcing people to pick once choice rather than have options might increase "equality" but will invariably lower actual quality of life, since if you're forced to always pick one option, you either get the same choice as you wanted, or a worse choice than you wanted. being forced to pick a certain choice is almost never going to give people a better choice than what they wanted otherwise.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on July 31, 2019, 02:29:49 pm
A valid reading of that data is that greater choice is allowing for the inherent societal 'pressures' to manifest itself ;)

It makes an decent amount of sense that, when given the economic and social freedom to pursue what path they want, the ones who were given dolls and toy cooking sets as children would wind up down different career and lifestyle paths as adults than the ones who mostly got toy race cars, robots and dinosaurs. Boys are more likely to get more negatively chastised if they find their way into their mum's makeup kit. Not as many fathers even think to pick up a ball and play kick about with their daughters compared to with their sons.

I probably wouldn't be a programmer if my father didn't introduce me to video games at a young age, and most of the female programmers I know were similarly introduced to the field by similar means. But it was simply less likely for parents to buy a young girl a games console compared to a boy.  (Wow I mistyped that originally as "I wouldn't be a computer if my father didn't introduce me to programmers" xD)

These are the kinds of things I speak of when I say "societal pressures".

Ideally you'd want a test society in which gender-oriented pressures from family and society-at-large don't exist in the first place to see what such a societies career/gender balance would look like. But since we can't just lock 200 babies in a white room and come back 30 years later to see what it looks like (damn ethics board) it's tricky to extrapolate much from the white noise imposed by a few hundred thousand years of human history* forming current society. Though you could probably maybe make a reasonable inference if there was a flipped society to use for comparison, where men were socialised as caregivers and women as providers.

Failing that, something I don't think I've seen, and I can see how it'd be damn hard to do rigorously, is a wide-reaching attempt to trace the childhood upbringing of children and correlate that with career-paths (well, to try and disprove the idea that there's a correlation. null hypothesis and all that). Since gender is still a great influence on upbringing, that could be a very interesting study. Are STEM students in more likely to be introduced by parents/carers/peers to related/introductory areas? If so, does that correlation hold regardless of gender?

We really need more people taking the STEM topics. So if we can find more ways to sneak the interest about that kind of thing into the heads of young children of all genders, that'd be great :P

(As an aside, I'm all for the elimination of gender-based societal pressures, regardless of it's impact on gender/career ratios xD)

(* Yes, I know you'd more likely than not get 200 mostly feral people. The human brain needs socialisation to develop. I don't actually think we should do this.).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 01, 2019, 05:16:03 am
https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us (https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us)
Fuckin' dis-augs...
It's a tricky one for GitHub.

Absolutely, and they are trying to cope as best they can.  I was not meaning to be critical of them on this issue. More it was a comment about (in your words):

Quote
This does highlight another way in which current business laws and politicians still really don't know how to deal with this whole "global interconnected network" thing, since it just makes everything worse for everyone on all sides.

Particulary in the context of the previous post about the prosthetic arm, I was hoping none of those Iranian (or Cuban, or Syrian, or Crimean, or North Korean, or...) developers - or more precisely people interacting with Github from those locations - were providing important software for it.  (Personally I know that I use harfbuzz, an Iranian based project, though only for text shaping.) 

Insert a bunch of colloquialisms about the left hand no knowing what the right is doing, or cutting off the arm [sic] to spite the face.

Of course I'm glad the revamped news of the gender politics of modern society has taken control of the thread.  ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 01, 2019, 05:47:10 am
A valid reading of that data is that greater choice is allowing for the inherent societal 'pressures' to manifest itself ;)

Hmm, not really, because it's actually the gender-equality metrics themselves that correlate highly with lack of women in STEM. see the graph, copied from the article:

(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2018/02/Screen_Shot_2018_02_16_at_12.33.16_PM/d099fa13a.png)

It's not just "choice" in general. Places with very high metrics on gender equality have really low rates of female graduates from STEM. Take Finland as a prime example. They have an excellent public school system which is definitely a world-beater in science education. They're #5 in the world on the PISA score for science literacy.
http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/
Yet, have almost the lowest number of female STEM graduates anywhere. Girls in Finland are definitely exposed to world-beating science and maths education, and Finland has a very high level of commitment to gender-neutral outcomes. It's just that as soon as free choice comes into it, the opposite to expectations occurs.

To claim that this is just a manifestation of "the patriarchy" or equivalent is confirmation bias: you'd see it as proof of the nefarious effect of The Patriarchy whether the graph went up, or went down, which shows the analysis is an unfalsifiable, religious-type claim, since it's impervious to new data.

You end up contorting your logic into places like "places with high levels of gender equality have societal effects preventing women from pursuing male-type careers" which seems ... pretty unlikely as a model. This purely hypothetical base-line society where women and men have exactly the same career preferences, due to high levels of gender equality is expressly at odds with observable data, so maybe we should assume it's implausible that it's the only "true" underlying reality.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 01, 2019, 06:28:10 am
I'm in the camp of wondering  why homogeneous distribution is considered the gold standard of "equality" in the first place - from a scientific standpoint at least. 

Why is the assumption that interests and preferences being equal across an entire population is a desirable societal characteristic?  That is - if you had zero "social bias" for things like career interest, would the distribution of careers be homogeneous?  Or put another way - does homogeneous distribution of careers (or wage, or whatever) really indicate equality?




Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 01, 2019, 06:30:17 am
One has to question why society thinks that STEM fields are deserving of higher pay than soft-skills based careers that are mentally taxing (like nursing.)  Becoming a full RN or BSN requires a pretty hefty chunk of change too you know. It's not unskilled labor.


The issue is that wages are artificially depressed by hospitals and facilities that are profit driven, and abuse the staff's willingness to "Make shit happen with less" (https://iwpr.org/wp-content/uploads/wpallimport/files/iwpr-export/publications/C363.pdf), because they actually give a shit about the people being cared for.  There are numerous reasons for this downward pressure to assure profitability, with spiraling costs of healthcare due to obscene costs for certified equipment, and prohibitive drug prices, being among them. (EG, hospitals have to cut expenses whenever and wherever possible, since drug makers and pals gouge on their prices. Seriously, check out how much a certified pulse-oximeter costs (https://www.amperordirect.com/c/c-pulse-oximeter/index.html)(note, they try to give you a "bargain" with the lowest costing unit being about 40$, "Their price," with normal retail prices never below 50$.), compared to a non-certified one. (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=pulse+oximeter&ref=nb_sb_noss_2) (which is often around 20$.)  The difference? All the bureaucracy to assure that the meter works within specified parameters. Oh-- and those certified ones? Yeah, you have to regularly have them checked and calibrated, so it's not like they are magic or anything. (In fact, even "Blessed" ones have alarming error rates, when subjected to structured testing. (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1365-2044.2011.07021.x)) Requiring standards for calibration would allow any old meter to be properly calibrated, and blessed, or detected as irredeemably out of tolerance and junked. You might have noticed that some of the very same models (https://www.amperordirect.com/pc/c-pulse-oximeter/contec-pulse-oximeter-cms50dl.html) are in the "certified" category, AND ALSO (https://www.amazon.com/50-DL-Pulse-Oximeter-Neck-Wrist/dp/B004BJT9OE/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=pulse+oximeter+contec+CMS50DL&qid=1564658763&s=gateway&sr=8-3) in the 'not certified' category. Exact same unit, Same parts, same assembly line. Vastly different price.) 

(and no, I did not intend to make a rant about pulse oximeters. I was just pointing them out as an example of overpriced medical equipment that REALLY should not cost so much.)

When the certification process literally doubles the price on a piece of hardware, (OR MORE!!), there is a problem, and who do you think ends up having to sort out the bills?  Hospitals can only charge so much you know.
There needs to be a re-alignment about how society treats medicine, and caregivers, in general.  Socializing medicine, coupled with "livable wage" laws that the government is not exempt from, would go a long way to fixing this trend you are citing Reelya.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 01, 2019, 08:18:22 am
My point was that the inability to remove cultural factors acts an example of a huuuge hidden variable which makes drawing any causation from a presented correlation inherently problematic. A direct causation should result in a much prettier graph, but you get dramatic outliers like both Chile and Finland/Norway. The interesting thing to analyse is:
a) Why would it start very scatter-shot, but trend towards becoming less so as you go to the right? Is that just because of the number of countries on the left vs right?
b) Can you identify clusters, and what other shared factors do those clusters have? Then, do those factors also at all correlate?

My instinct is still that if you could somehow eliminate all gender-based socialisation and construct a 'blank' culture without even the idea of gender then it'd be a smaller gap than 80/20. But like I said, there are way too many hidden variables in any available data to actually make a judgement on that.

I also just realised we somehow segued into whether or not you'd get equal gender distribution, but that wasn't even the original topic.

The original topic was that algorithm seeming to automatically mark down women as a worse hire. That's unrelated to gender distribution in the fields, and more about whether those who pursue that career path in the first place are on equal footing in terms of skill and capacity to perform the job. If you see an ~80/20 male/female split in applicants, why do you not get an ~80/20 split in hires?

Gender-equal distribution doesn't really matter there if you can remove the incentives for the male to be the primary worker (things like the cycle of "men are paid more because women stop working when they have a kid because men are paid more because"), then the goal becomes more about providing enough equity that factors like employees with or without children can remain competitive with each other.

Physical variance drawn from biology may manifest at scale, but is largely a useless metric for understanding individuals. The ethical problems mostly arise when we start pigeonholing or restricting individuals career/lifestyle paths based on their gender or sex.

–-----
As for why STEM is seen as more desirable: Capitalism is based on the pursuit of economic growth. STEM fields are the most likely to generate efficiency savings for existing industries and to lead to the creation of new industries. Both efficiency increases and industry creation drive greater economic growth than a gradual population increase alone provides, ergo more STEM is more desirable.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 01, 2019, 04:22:43 pm
One has to question why society thinks that STEM fields are deserving of higher pay than soft-skills based careers that are mentally taxing (like nursing.)  Becoming a full RN or BSN requires a pretty hefty chunk of change too you know. It's not unskilled labor.

Well, it's difficult to say that "STEM fields" as a whole pay more than "soft skills careers" without a more specific benchmark; you can identify careers in both where the pay scales differently with experience. STEM generally has more official credentials involved, too; I can go be an artist or an author with no formal training at all and earn very little money, but if I want to be an engineer there's a 4-year degree involved at minimum, which raises the floor.

So if you could define your terms a little more, maybe with respect to specific positions, it might help deconvolve that scaling.

That said, I am not sure you can draw a comparison between notional STEM training costs and RN training. STEM PhD students are generally salaried, for example, with tuition paid by the mentor's lab; sure we end up paying for ourselves with grants, but it's not like we get the tuition paid to us first. When you factor in undergraduate scholarships, the total cost to the student of a STEM education is sometimes negative.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 02, 2019, 10:45:44 am
Also, i think this hand-wave of 'society values ABC career more than XYZ career' a little questionable as a general construct.

It's not like e.g. you're a dude so everyone showers you in money and free blowjobs. Everyone works hard to pay everyone else the very least that they can get away with and still get the service they expect. If your profession is underpaid, that's because there's an excess of labor supply in that industry, not because 'society' puts a 'value' on your labor. Look at, for example the godawful low pay of video game developers, a very male-dominated industry, but low pay because there are a lot of people who want to do it. It's not underpaid because society doesn't 'value' the labor of game developers, it's underpaid because every man and his dog wants to code the next Call of Duty. Simiarly, you want teachers or nurses to get paid more? reduce the supply of teach / nurse training. That's what the AMA does to keep the wages of doctors up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on August 02, 2019, 10:49:03 am
I always assumed that was at least in part because people wanted to do it, so were willing to accept low pay to do so
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 02, 2019, 10:51:46 am
I always assumed that was at least in part because people wanted to do it, so were willing to accept low pay to do so

Supply still dictates that. What willingness to accept lower pay does is increase the number of applicants at any possible price-point, which has the same effect as just increasing the size of the applicant pool would. in either case, the average wage then drops (which may increase demand if demand is elastic) until supply equals demand.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 10:59:47 am
Not in nursing.

There is a genuine shortage of workers (https://www.aacnnursing.org/News-Information/Fact-Sheets/Nursing-Shortage).  It takes a very special aptitude to work with people on that level, because it wears you out. (No, really. "Compassion Fatigue" (https://www.americannursetoday.com/compassion-fatigue/) is a thing.)

The problem in nursing is that there are compounding factors working to actively keep wages depressed (https://www.healthleadersmedia.com/nursing/rn-salaries-remain-flat-2016).  It's caused by high equipment and drug prices, high prices for doctor time (because there is a doctor shortage, and doctors are valued more than nurses, despite doctors requiring nurses to meet their patient's needs), and a general view that "just a nurse" implies some unskilled woman with lots of compassion, but little training. (which is of course, bullshit. (https://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees-and-certificates/nursing-rn-to-bs-bachelors/courses))

You would think that with a genuine shortage going on, compensation would be up; But it's not.


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 02, 2019, 11:07:32 am
Your first link says a projected shortage of nurses:

Quote
According to the “United States Registered Nurse Workforce Report Card and Shortage Forecast” published in the January 2012 issue of the American Journal of Medical Quality, a shortage of registered nurses is projected to spread across the country between 2009 and 2030. In this state-by-state analysis, the authors forecast the RN shortage to be most intense in the South and the West.

Also, the average wage for a nurse in the USA is said to be $73,550, which is much higher than the median wage in the USA of $47,000.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=average+wage+nurses+usa

So, can you break down your claim that nurses are heavily underpaid and that their pay rates don't reflect any shortage? I think this might be kind of a meme that nursing is poorly-paid drudge work, because it's women, right? so it must by definition be underpaid and under-appreciated. you can find a number of sources talking about how nursing as a career is at odds with the feminist movement. Probably because how lucrative nursing actually is (along with being 'traditional') is at odds with the feminist mantra that everything is terrible and getting worse for women. Nursing is in fact a goddamn great career for women in terms of income, job security and promotion prospects.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 11:15:24 am
Current supply of nurses is insufficient, in addition to the projected needs cited. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2657/)

The "Low" statement was in comparison to more male-dominated careers, with similar levels of educational requirements.

Remember, the wage values you are referring to, are so high because of mandatory overtime. It is not reflective of base pay rates.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 02, 2019, 11:25:27 am
first up, there are graphs showing the growth of nursing wages over time. nursing has in fact kept pace with physicians, and grown even while dentistry, a more male-dominated discipline has stagnated. This was the top google image search result for "usa nursing wages rising"

(http://marginalrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/PhysicanIncomes.png)

Second, in the private sector, you don't get paid for how educated you are, but for how much revenue you generate for your organization. I think it's also likely that you'll find that those high-paying male careers have more risk/reward and less job security than your nursing ones do. Job stability is a perk that means more people are willing to pick that career, so they trade-off wages for that, the same as male developers who choose lower-pay in game dev trade off fun and passion for higher wages they'd get doing finance apps or something.

There's also survivor bias. By only comparing say successful employed bankers vs nurses, you ignore the fact that banking is a higher-stakes career where there are more potential failures who dropped out and ended up in a different industry. for example, how many unemployed game developers are there out there, vs how many unemployed nursing graduates?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 11:33:01 am
Nurse turnover is alarmingly high, hovering at around 18% per year.  While less than banking, it's hardly what I would consider "easy" or "comfortable."  The turnover statistic is not because people get fired, it is because "It wears you out, and there is no relief." There is no shortage or work-- there's more work than there are hours humans can provide.


Again, total salary figures have overtime as part of their component, since there really arent any nurses working that are not constantly working overtime. Base pay rate is really what you need to look at.

Risk takes many forms, and mental health deterioration is a very real risk. One that is not well compensated for.

Some estimates place the nursing profession to have an increased depression statistic 2 times higher than national average. They are also more likely to smoke, and more likely to commit suicide.

(~14% of US population smokes (https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/adult_data/cig_smoking/index.htm))
(~25% of nurses smoke. (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140107170745.htm))
(There is strong data linking rate of smoking with rate of depression and suicide in nurses. (https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.83.2.249))

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 02, 2019, 11:39:52 am
Again, that comes down to the supply rate of new graduates, not some mystical 'value' that 'society' puts on different jobs.

Things like burnout/turn-over will in fact push wages up because that's increasing things on the demand side (need more new workers), whereas things like increasing nursing places at universities will push wages down, because that's increasing things on the supply side (more applicants per role).

And in fact, looking at graphs, the wages for nurses are in fact growing strongly, which reflects the demand-side pressures of needing more nurses, and existing nurses being over-worked. BTW, the medical profession doesn't in fact have that high of a turnover compared to industries as a whole:

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrGEU_HXPPkL5qkIGzgBe_6t4CeYFFxXzs1NPOnRbJMdybFHwF6Q)

The industry average is 15% turnover per annum, making nursing at 18% per annum seem pretty might right on the average.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 12:01:17 pm
"and still have staff"

That is the operative part here, but you don't realize it.

Despite the career being abysmally difficult because of impossible workplace demands, the vocation is comprised of people with a high emotive capacity that WANT to provide care, despite its deleterious effects.  This causes the workers to TOLERATE more bullshit, like lower pay, and higher mandatory overtime, compared to other vocations. I have supplied ample citations for how base pay has remained flat since the 2010s.  What has increased, is the mandatory overtime.

If you include other, rank and file caregivers, there's an epidemic of exploitation by care facilities. (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/why-some-residential-caregivers-call-their-jobs-indentured-servitude)

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 02, 2019, 12:10:47 pm
Let me point out that your 'nursing wages are depressed' link merely states that wages for a specific type of nurse didn't increase between 2016 and 2017, and for a different type of nurse, they didn't increase between 2015 and 2016. I guess if the temperature this year is the same as last year, then global warming isn't happening either.

This is really poor evidence, sorry. First, you said 'actively depressed', but the link says it stayed the same, and only covers a single year. You've made a much bigger claim there than you have data to back it up, and you haven't actually shown that nursing wage growth between 2016-2017 did any worse than any other industry, either.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 12:14:06 pm
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/903258

https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/healthcare-jobs-grow-at-rapid-clip-but-wages-lag-amid-consolidation-boom/552765/


But let's look at rate of growth in wages compared to national averages.

https://www.epi.org/nominal-wage-tracker/

They state that nominal yearly growth is ~3.2% for real hourly workers.

From my second link:

"For nurses and pharmacists working in hospitals in heavily concentrated markets, annual wage growth has been lagging behind national rates by as much as 1.7 times"

So yeah-- depressed.


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 02, 2019, 12:19:12 pm
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/903258

https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/healthcare-jobs-grow-at-rapid-clip-but-wages-lag-amid-consolidation-boom/552765/

Your first link says " In 2017, for the first time, average annual nurse wages and hourly rates of pay failed to increase significantly." if it "increased significantly" every other year before 2017 then there isn't good evidence that something has systematically "depressed" wages the whole time, it just failed to grow that particular year, and that specific year is even noted in your source as being an anomaly, not the norm.

It's literally a single data-point that's not indicative of previous trends. If something only occurred that one time, for the "first time" according to your source you don't actually have evidence of that. And the second source gives a reason for that - there have been recent mergers of providers. Usually when that happens they will consolidate higher-level / admin positions to increase efficiency. That's the point of merging after all, to streamline things.

Also, if you go google "wage growth USA" you'd notice there was a general slump in 2016:
(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/united-states-wage-growth.png?s=unitedstawaggro&v=201907301327a1&d1=20140101&d2=20191231)

So at the point that wages stopped rising for nurses, it just happened to be at the same moment of the lowest level of national wage growth in the past 5 years, across all industries. note, that they said "for the first time" for that one, too, so even in the depths of the Global Financial Crisis, when wages were dropping, nursing wages still grew. This kinda contradicts the idea that there are nursing-specific things which "depress" their wages in ways other industries don't have to worry about.

Also:
https://nightingale.edu/blog/nurse-salary-by-state/
Quote
In March 2019, The US Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that between May 2017 and May 2018, registered nurses brought in a median salary of $71,730 per year – a 3.7% increase compared to the previous year.

So, yeah the "stagnation" from 2016-2017 was literally a one-year blip not repeated either before or since, which can be more or less completely explained since literally every other industry was going through the same general thing right then.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 12:54:54 pm
(one data point)

Let's fix that!

There's a convenient place we can look:
https://www.bls.gov/oes/tables.htm

So, let's pull all the datasets from 1997 to the present, and look year by year. This will take me a bit to do, so I will edit in a bit. (They used XLS format, because they are tools. I need to install libreoffice.)





Now, let's compare deltas, year by year, between these sets, as both raw change values and percentage changes.







Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 02, 2019, 02:23:09 pm
https://work.chron.com/salaries-changed-nurses-23316.html

Quote
By 1988, RN wages had increased to $28,383 annually, according to “Nursing Economics,” and they continued to rise until by 1992, when the average RN wage was $37,738.
...
Nurses earned a median annual wage of $64,690 in May 2010, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Over 22 years that's an average growth off 3.8% per year, which is exactly in line with the 3.7% growth between 2017 and 2018. We can say then that 3.8% per year is the average rate at which nursing wages increase in the long-run, which exceeds average inflation over the same span by 1% per year:
http://www.in2013dollars.com/1988-dollars-in-2010

Accounting for inflation, that's a ~ 25% real wage increase since 1988 for nurses. The median income American has only gained 6% in real terms between 1979 and 2014
https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/
which means 6% in ~35 years, or about 0.16% real inflation-adjusted wage growth per year. That means that inflation-adjusted wages for nurses have increased about 6 times faster than the median American since 1988.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 03:08:17 pm
We might be in agreement, I am seeing consistent divergence between "all occupations" and "Nursing" average median yearly incomes, with nursing having a greater net trend.  I am not finished doing year to year percentage and raw delta computations though, and I will want to compute a male dominated sample vocation for comparison as well, but this is taking for freaking ever.

I will update previous post with what I have so far, and then sleep. I work tonight so I cannot stay up doing this right now, but I will complete this task tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on August 02, 2019, 04:12:38 pm
Reminds me of the construction labor shortage that we're also currently suffering from.


...actually, that's kind of concerning. That's at least two major fields where we're suffering from labor shortages. I'm starting to think that the economy is outpacing the capacity for the country to do work- that is, we're reaching an economic level that requires more people working than there actually are.

This is starting to get really weird.

Sounds like an economy ripe for automation. :)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 04:19:38 pm
Automation?  In nursing? (stifles mad laughter)

While the Japanese are indeed totally and madly in love with the idea, think on this a minute:

You know how when you call technical support, and get a recording, and wait forever to reach one of the handfuls of real people that can actually service your need, you get a bit angry and put off by the whole process?

Well-- Now throw in "Life and death" situations, and "I am in unbearable pain!" into the mix.  With a robot, who is incapable of empathy.
(Or you know, you could look more realistically at the state of machine vision, and honestly ask yourself if you REALLY want a bipedal robot with such vision systems attempting to help you when you are in a full body cast from your automobile accident. We are talking intimate care here; Your arms and legs are in casts, and you just shat yourself; Also, your catheter needs cath-care. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbkhsHcLX5A) Do you really want that system handling your junk for you? Remember, foley catheters are held in using a water balloon inside your bladder, and to clean the catheter, you have to pull back the meatus, and clean the length of the tubing several times. Do you really want a robot pulling on that, when it cannot respond adequately if you are injured by this process?)


Yeah, that will go places, I'm sure!  We are a very long way away from general AI strong enough to do that kind of thing.  VERY long.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 02, 2019, 04:38:06 pm
Automation?  In nursing? (stifles mad laughter)

I'm just gonna quote this for posterity. Everybody thinks their job is too special to automate until suddenly it's not. Nursing in particular is an attractive target because of how standardized it is; it's easier to come up with a single evaluatable set of capabilities to build into a robot RN with calculable value to the industry than it would be to do so for something like a lab tech. That in turn helps get projects funded.

More to the point, though, they don't need to replace 100% of RNs. It's still profitable to replace just the repetitive or tedious or precise parts, firing nurses all the while, until the job of the one RN in the hospital is to sit and be shouted at by angry sick people who are mad at their robots. Then the pool of people who can do it widens and salaries drop.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 04:43:11 pm
Quite, but malpractice rates also go up, because the nursing staff lacks the appropriate skillsets to evaluate when the robots are malfunctioning. If you haven't seen what "being insufficiently gentle" when performing cath-care on a man does to a man's penis, You really should. (https://www.hindawi.com/journals/au/2010/461539/)  (and that's just cath-care. There's a whole host of other, "You can seriously fuck up a patient permanently if you do this wrong, so fucking do it right the first time, every time goddamit!" activities that happens in nursing.) The malpractice suits would be outrageous. Possibly enough to completely negate the cost savings from using the robots.

There's also the increased risk factors of sanitization of a robot that has more contaminatable surfaces. While you could theoretically autoclave a robot, that's not always sufficient.


I am not saying that robot nurses are impossible (ever), just that they are currently not realistically feasible in the foreseeable future.
(even then, it is quite likely that humans would strongly prefer to be cared for by an actual human, in much the same way that humans much prefer to be cared for by actual humans in telephone support settings. The difference is that in this new setting, the robot on the line can literally fuck you up.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 02, 2019, 05:02:09 pm
And I'm saying don't look for robot nurses. Look for increasingly sophisticated labor-saving devices for nurses (https://www.fastcompany.com/90372204/a-hospital-introduced-a-robot-to-help-nurses-they-didnt-expect-it-to-be-so-popular), because if you can save X% of nurse time you can fire X% of nurses, and repeat that process ad nauseam until the parts of the job that are left don't look anything like the original job.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 05:10:33 pm
You see that now with doctors, and things like robot surgeons.

However, robot surgeons are not magic bullets, and there are malpractice claims concerning their use.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5687202/


The number of things a nurse does, (and the frequency!) are in a different league.  Doctors tend to do very sophisticated procedures, requiring very detailed specialist knowledge; Nurses do routine after-care, which is much more frequent. Often many times a day.

Providing tools in the nurse population increases the risks demonstrated in robotic surgery many times over.  There's a reason why doctors want nurses to use a manual stethoscope and sphygmomanometer (https://www.jems.com/articles/2018/10/ditch-the-machine-to-improve-accuracy-in-blood-pressure-measurement-and-diagnostics.html) when taking blood pressures, rather than an automated cuff, for instance.   
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 02, 2019, 05:18:39 pm
Can you think of any part of your typical workload that could be automated with current or near-current technology, with reasonably little risk? If yes, then what percentage (time-wise) of your workload would such automation take over?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 05:20:59 pm
Cleaning rooms and delivering room trays.

Possibly cleaning soiled beds (with patient removed.)


Anything related to actual hands-on care on a patient? No. Not safely.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 02, 2019, 05:27:30 pm
So, what percentage of your typical work day do these activities occupy? (because that's approximately the percentage of nursing staff that can be made redundant)

Also, isn't there a job that normally requires more than one nurse, but could be done just as well by at least one fewer, if equipped with a technologically-feasible device?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 05:35:57 pm
Depends on the setting;  In long term care, quite a lot. (People are very incontinent all the time, but the human in attendance of the robot still has to clean and care for the patient, while the robot takes care of trash and linens. Most of the time spent (more than 70%, upward of 90 if the patient is uncomfortable and needs reassurance) is with hands-on patient care for those doing grunt work. Patients with dementia may be obstinate about refusing care, but still most definitely require it; the care giver has to convince such patients to submit to receiving the care, and that process can be quite lengthy. This is why you would need a strong general AI straight of of science fiction to replace nursing staff. (Office and desk nurses could probably be completely automated, if not for the requirement of needing quality communication with doctors. See also "Call center robot hell, hospital version" and now people die from it.) 

"Nursing staff" covers CNA work (which mostly focuses on pericare, dealing with belligerent patients, and the gruntwork of getting room trays and delivering specimens. The latter two being ad-hoc errands that are infrequent but annoying, the former being the mainstay of occupation) and RN work (Foley insertions, wound dressing and care, setup and operation of IV units, Skin and wound assessments, detailed medical documentation collection and communication, and management of CNA workers).  Since there is a shortage of CNAs, RNs often do CNA duties too. (It is not uncommon to see an RN cleaning up puke and shit.)

Robotic assistants could cover a portion of CNA work, but very little of RN work.   


For acute trauma care, even less. RNs do much more because there is more that needs their higher credentials.  Working a trauma ward has stricter requirements, and is harder on the mind.

For psychiatric facility care, nurses tend to need CNAs more, and "human interaction" is needed more by the patients. (A robot is likely to be destroyed by the patient in a fit of rage, since the patient is likely to be literally psychotic in this setting.)


For something like "assisted living", where the patient is rarely incontinent, and just needs help remembering to take their pills, put on clean clothes, and eat regularly-- Robots could probably do a whole lot.  Assisted living is a vanishingly small demographic though.  This is the demographic that the Japanese are targeting.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 02, 2019, 05:52:41 pm
Well, that does not sound like a fully robot-proof occupation, but still pretty safe, relatively speaking. At least in your lifetime.

In my field it looks more like some 90% jobs going redundant, in a decade or two.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 02, 2019, 06:10:02 pm
Well, that does not sound like a fully robot-proof occupation, but still pretty safe, relatively speaking. At least in your lifetime.

In my field it looks more like some 90% jobs going redundant, in a decade or two.

It sounds to me like it's the sort of occupation where the more fundamental obstacles to automation that aren't good candidates for industrial funding can be discretized into federally fundable projects, and the nursing shortage is a clear motivating factor. I'd be surprised if it had a decade or two.

I'd say my field was resistant to automation, but it's more that we keep building the robots that can take our jobs and then doing more science with them, so I suppose it's more automation-compatible.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on August 02, 2019, 06:13:59 pm
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Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 02, 2019, 06:22:45 pm
Well, that does not sound like a fully robot-proof occupation, but still pretty safe, relatively speaking. At least in your lifetime.

In my field it looks more like some 90% jobs going redundant, in a decade or two.

It sounds to me like it's the sort of occupation where the more fundamental obstacles to automation that aren't good candidates for industrial funding can be discretized into federally fundable projects, and the nursing shortage is a clear motivating factor. I'd be surprised if it had a decade or two.

I'd say my field was resistant to automation, but it's more that we keep building the robots that can take our jobs and then doing more science with them, so I suppose it's more automation-compatible.

I think you forget just how much the GOP hates funding science, Trekkin. :D  They often  view AI as "Pie in the sky" science fiction, rather than actually needed research.  They also tend to focus on military applications rather than civilian ones, which they view as the domain of private enterprise. (often religiously so.)  They are much more likely to fund skynet than baymax. :P

(Unless of course, it's a military combat medic robot, and is exempted from a great deal of medical ethics considerations, because the military is not nearly as culpable for malpractice, and consent for procedures is not nearly as enforced. But then you end up with a scary robot being pushed into civilian hospitals, and then you get all the malpractice claims.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on August 02, 2019, 07:04:55 pm
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Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on August 02, 2019, 07:23:20 pm
We'll make a combat medic robot, then realize that it has a patient mortality rate of 100% and make it a combat robot.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 02, 2019, 07:29:36 pm
I think you forget just how much the GOP hates funding science, Trekkin. :D  They often  view AI as "Pie in the sky" science fiction, rather than actually needed research.  They also tend to focus on military applications rather than civilian ones, which they view as the domain of private enterprise. (often religiously so.)  They are much more likely to fund skynet than baymax. :P

Yeah, they hate science so much they gave the NIH alone a 5% budget increase in 2018, the fourth consecutive increase in a row.  ::)

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 03, 2019, 05:24:56 pm
Time estimations are hard, but to me it's harder to imagine a future where poor people wouldn't be subjected to robo-threatment and their relatives made liable for any resistance. I imagine the future much like a luxurious fully automated slaughterhouse (in that all movements are constrained in the right direction)

I think that's actually an antiquated idea of automation. In the 20th century people were treated as interchangeable and put on rote schedules because the technology dictated it.

The whole point of AI is that it can make decisions so that you can customize things per-person without the high cost that would have required in the past. Consider the 20th century education model before automation. You sit in a classroom and learn material at the "average" pace of the class, and if you want to get ahead or if you fall behind, tough shit, the system doesn't support that. Then, contrast that to the "21st century education" model. now, you can learn at your own pace, you're not tied to anyone else's schedule, you can access resources from your own home. The idea that AI will lead to "production-line" based stuff is really an old way of thinking.

Your example of "robo treatment" like being on a conveyor belt going through and getting standardized treatment is a humorous image, but it has not a single thing to do with the new technology: you're just rehashing a vision of "future technology" that was prevalent back in the 1950s or 1960s when they could only extrapolate from production-line technology.

What "robo treatment" will be, extrapolating from current tech and what's cheapest, will be is that you go on the internet, you interact with a bot, then they'll mail out your treatment and you're supposed to self-administer. The idea that there will be a robo-medical treatment plant that's like some factory: it's fanciful and antiquated. That would be more expensive than what we do now. The production line model is well and truly ancient tech, not future tech. Or, instead of going into a hospital, you have a cheap medi-bot system that's used to perform operations on you at home, with a remote access link to the AIs that do the actual treatment. Advantages of this would be that you don't risk cross-contamination and it could be cleaned much more cheaply, meaning the cost would be significantly lower than having to invent a giant do-anything machine housed in a building you have to pay for, that can thoroughly clean itself of all bio contamination.

The holy grail of current medical treatment is to get you in and out of the hospital as quickly as possible. The end-result of this trend isn't some building you go into that contains an elaborate Rube Goldberg machine that can solve any medical problem without human doctors, it is in fact to have you in the hospital for zero seconds: don't come in at all, thanks. That's how I'd envision future medicine, all remote, decentralized, basically avoiding having to have the infrastructure of a large building that concentrates sick people together. Think about it: they hate building infrastructure. Large centralized "robo treatment plants" for sick poor people will just never happen. Too expensive.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on August 03, 2019, 10:19:10 pm
I always assumed the holy grail of medical treatment was keeping someone taking your medicine to fix their problem, but keep it so they have to keep coming back as much as possible, so you can squeeze as much money out of them as you possibly can, and also paying large amounts of money to prevent a treatment that actually cured the problem permanently from being approved or sold
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 03, 2019, 10:35:13 pm
It's a hybrid of the two.

It's a machine, that once daily, provides you with your "health serum", on which the entire human population is completely and totally dependent (The immune systems of everyone are so naive now that exposure to dust mites would cause hyperimmune reactions without the serum).  This serum is a genuine and true panacea; It cures, prevents, and treats EVERYTHING. As long as you use it, you will have absolute, perfect health.

However, it's a bit costly, so off to work with you-- Perfectly healthy (and thus no sick days. what, do you think I'm an idiot or something? Get to work you slacker!) worker drones.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 04, 2019, 04:21:35 am
Except the cost of the space you take up at work is getting to the point that they don't want you there even if you'll work for free. The problem is that once we get to the "100% healthy worker drones" state the tech will be in place that anything they could pay you to do would cost more money for them than they generate.

So, more like you get the health serum if you can afford it, but most people are logging into jobs from home that pay by commission for piecemeal work only, so that they don't have to pay for infrastructure like a desk and airconditioning for you. To be honest I think that's more of a realistic automated dystopia than the idea of "mega-factories" where you are like a numbered drone. They'll move 100% to the gig economy so that you don't have to be treated as an employee. People with those grindy jobs will be envied for having job security.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 04, 2019, 05:14:00 am
They'll move 100% to the gig economy so that you don't have to be treated as an employee.

And where the short-term gig economy doesn't work, they'll move to the academic model, where you're "in training" for the bulk of your career. When a two-year job has a year-long interview process during which you are essentially working for free for the new (potential) boss on top of the old boss(es), you know the system is working great.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 04, 2019, 05:38:43 am
That reminds me, a friend of mine did an apprenticeship as a map compositor at a mapping place. As soon as him and the other apprentices finished they rolled out the new map-compositing software, which completely replaced the manual map-compositing machines (the type with layers of celluloid in a light box) which he'd trained to work on.

So that's another way they can get you: pay apprentice wages for working on some process that's about to become obsolete.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on August 04, 2019, 05:57:59 am
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Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 04, 2019, 06:10:31 am
The issue is that the robots need to be strong enough to completely hold the weight of such old people, yet be sensitive enough and delicate enough in their motor function to not HURT the old people.  This is difficult even for HUMAN hands and arms! Old people have very delicate skin, because they have a breakdown of collagen fibers, and a loss of the subcutaneous fatty layer. A very slight 'shearing' force (Such as wiping!!) will rip their skin and peel it off. This is called a skin-tear. It can literally be easier to tear than tissue paper.

Until you develop anti-grav beds and tractor beams, this is gonna be a tall order, even for soft-body robots.

IMHO, it would be easier to provide them with a hormone or gene therapy to cause them to replenish their missing collagen.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 04, 2019, 06:26:53 am
Interestingly, sterilizing a home is not as difficult as it sounds:  in fact, because a person is already used to the biosphere of their house, they are less likely to have a post-surgery infection at their house than in a hospital.  There's a growing movement (to which the health insurers are on-board actually) to increase home care.  It's actually less expensive and more effective (from a public health aspect) to pay for doctors and nurses to make home visits than have people visit an office.  This is especially true for care of the elderly and infirm.

Companies are also (re?)learning all kinds of things about the modern trends in "big business": they are finding that open pan work areas aren't as productive as they thought (basically you can go open up to a size, but if it's too open it's detrimental).  They are finding that "gig" work means that you never really get expert knowledge and that high turnover is more expensive (gasp!) than low turnover.

I just find it amusing that for all modern technology, a good chunk of the "old quaint historical way of doing things" was actually pretty good.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 04, 2019, 11:40:40 am
(pricetags can very well include models like chinas social credit score)

Maybe something like the fictional version of china's social credit scores, however almost all actual articles about china's actual social credit concept are so misreported as to be meaningless


Basically the "media" version is something that would be unwieldy and wouldn't even accomplish anything that the chinese government would remotely be interested in. No government gives a shit how many hours a day you're playing video games, or about your ranking on dating sites, or almost any of the other shit commonly claimed (falsely) to be part of china's social credit system.

https://www.wired.com/story/china-social-credit-score-system/?verso=true

If you start to read about it, the real goal seems to be because there's a lot of fraud and corruption in China, and this is actually becoming an impediment to commerce. And boosting commerce is a believable goal of the chinese government. Trying to micro-manage 1.4 billion people isn't a goal, and the Chinese are pragmatic enough to realize it would cost more than it gains. They care about economic growth, full stop.

See the problems with baby formula, where Chinese people refuse to buy locally made baby formula, so come over to place like Australia, empty out supermarket aisles then fly it back to China to sell. That's the lack of general trust Chinese people have for companies in China. The "social credit" system actually focuses on businesses and government officials and that's almost never even mentioned in any of the articles in the West about the thing:

Quote
Pence referenced is a planning document released by China’s chief administrative body five years ago. It calls for the establishment of a nationwide scheme for tracking the trustworthiness of everyday citizens, corporations, and government officials. The Chinese government and state media say the project is designed to boost public confidence and fight problems like corruption and business fraud. Western critics often see social credit instead as an intrusive surveillance apparatus for punishing dissidents and infringing on people’s privacy.

Rather than being about policing people as consumers, it's more about generating a trustworthiness score for corporations, banks, government departments, and individuals but more towards their trustworthiness to trade with. Hence, why in every valid story the focus is on actual monetary debt. The actual system is in fact 100% geared towards such things as you get a bad score if your someone who never pays back your debts, rather than saying you're a bad person if you e.g. chew gum and walk at the same time.

But many articles say such things as e.g. they will stop you going shopping because you play too many MMOs. But, think rationally. The chinese government want people to go shopping, as much as possible. And couldn't give a fuck about MMOs: If you're at home playing MMOs you're not out causing trouble.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on August 04, 2019, 07:15:02 pm
What about preventing them from leaving the country because they're not a model citizen?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 05, 2019, 07:12:30 am
Nothing to do with the social credit scores, because, if you read the article, there isn't in fact anything implemented like that. The relevant bit is here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/01/china-bans-23m-discredited-citizens-from-buying-travel-tickets-social-credit-system
Quote
Last year, China’s National Development and Reform Commission said it would begin banning people on public transport for up to a year. The recent report also said 128 people were prevented from leaving China because of unpaid taxes.

Ok, so the people banned from leaving the country were a small number of people with tax debts. guess who also has that law? USA

https://www.accountingtoday.com/opinion/ten-things-you-need-to-know-about-passport-restrictions-on-delinquent-taxpayers

Quote
In late 2015, Congress passed the Fixing America’s Surface Transportation Act, a law that, among other things, helps the IRS collect larger tax debts. Included in the FAST Act is Section 7345 of the Internal Revenue Code, which requires the IRS to provide information to the U.S. State Department about people who owe “seriously delinquent tax debt.” Then, the State Department can deny, revoke or limit the ability of these individuals to use their passports – until they are back in good standing with the IRS.

It's the same fucking law, enough said.

Ok, but there's still the "banned from public transport for a year" people, so surely those ones are being banned because of the "social credit score":

Quote
The report said authorities collected more than 14m data points of “untrustworthy conduct” last year, including scams, unpaid loans, false advertising and occupying reserved seats on a train.
...
A video of a train passenger who refused to give up a seat another passenger had reserved went viral last year, sparking a debate over whether the current system of banning such travellers was harsh enough.

Yeah, so rather than a "score" system it's just in fact them banning people from public transport if they got caught doing something wrong on public transport.

And of course, guess what?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/should-metro-have-the-ability-to-permanently-ban-riders-from-the-system/2017/09/30/f61d252a-9d52-11e7-9083-fbfddf6804c2_story.html?utm_term=.60e146d990ea

Quote
As Metro and lawmakers look for ways to prevent assaults on transit operators and customers — particularly from repeat offenders — they are dealing with issues other transit agencies have struggled with: chiefly, how to balance public safety with the needs of transit-dependent communities.

Prompted by a recent spate of assaults on bus drivers — including an incident in which a woman allegedly threw a cup of urine onto a driver and another in which a driver was spat on — officials are pushing for tougher criminal penalties and the authority to ban offenders from the system.
...
The Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority ­(MARTA), which has issued more than 12,000 temporary or permanent bans since September 2013. That is when the agency's board of directors passed a new, stricter code of conduct that outlines a process that for the first time allows police to issue suspension citations.

Atlanta is half a million population, and banned about 3000 people a year from public transport. If you scaled up Atlanta's figures to the size of China, you'd get about 10 million bans a year, then you can double that on the assumption that a much higher proportion of Chinese people take public transport than in an American city, so a much larger pool of people who could get banned, and you'd get an expected number of bans of about 20 million per year. And that's pretty much right on the number of people who reportedly get banned from public transport per year in China.

Seriously. As you can see, debunking this particular fear-mongering about China is very low hanging fruit.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on August 05, 2019, 11:57:53 am
The entirety of China is considerably less densely populated than a single large American city. Directly comparing a city to a country is almost the definition of comparing apples with oranges.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on August 05, 2019, 11:04:59 pm
Assume effectively total automation of manual labor, and pretty much a moderate policy prevails during that time ensuring there are no socialist income programs for all the people who are forced to become students long enough to do the big earning human intelligence tasks. What does capitalism look like for workers in that environment?

The customer service and hospitality industry sounds pretty accessible, as well as more "traditional" businesses that artificially preserve a portion of the manual labor as a marketing tactic but it would no doubt be very competitive, sex work is becoming more socially acceptable and it's not outside the imagination for there to be social networks and advocacy groups to keep sex workers safer and to destigmatize the profession, AI would seem to be encroaching on the territory of artists today but I see it developing as a sub-genre and more as a tool of human artists rather than making human artists obsolete (humans are biased in favor of our own intellectual labor anyway), we already use digital tools and machines to produce crafts and CGI has basically lost its stigma by now, plus sports, journalism, and entertainment isn't really going anywhere anytime soon. What else could people do for work, assuming work doesn't become obsolete (I doubt capitalism will allow that to happen)?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 06, 2019, 10:59:36 am
There is a charm to hand crafted objects because each one carries the risk of failure during the crafting process while success results in something which may resemble other things but retains a uniqueness that will be difficult to replicate as automation by definition kills the kitschy sort of appeal it had in the first place.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 06, 2019, 01:54:45 pm
There is a charm to hand crafted objects because each one carries the risk of failure during the crafting process while success results in something which may resemble other things but retains a uniqueness that will be difficult to replicate as automation by definition kills the kitschy sort of appeal it had in the first place.

Who says automation cannot make unique items? Computers can retain a perfect record of every item they've ever made; if you tell it to randomly perturb the least functionally consequential parameters of the design until it's sufficiently different from every item it's ever made, the only question is how fast you can make the comparison (the compactness of the representation also matters, but spline interpolation alone can stop that being the limiting factor for most things where the shape is the important part.)

If you want it to randomly mess up the fabrication, it can do that too. You can even skew the randomness to match what a human would most likely mess up, if you want.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on August 06, 2019, 02:19:34 pm
Yes, but for some reason humans seem to value things being "hand-crafted" for no real particular reason.

Remember, humans aren't always rational.

It's just nice knowing that the bowl you're jacking off into was made by something that has also jacked off.

The day I trust an assembly line AI with my penis is the day I accept mass-manufactured goods.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 06, 2019, 02:29:18 pm
Yes, but for some reason humans seem to value things being "hand-crafted" for no real particular reason.

Remember, humans aren't always rational.

Sure, but how many people are irrational enough to want to pay a premium for handmade tools but rational enough to remember that "hand-crafted" has no legal definition?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on August 06, 2019, 03:15:08 pm
Yes, but for some reason humans seem to value things being "hand-crafted" for no real particular reason.

Remember, humans aren't always rational.

It's just nice knowing that the bowl you're jacking off into was made by something that has also jacked off.

The day I trust an assembly line AI with my penis is the day I accept mass-manufactured goods.

Ooh, look at Mr. Fancy Has-A-Bowl...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Parsely on August 06, 2019, 09:55:51 pm
There is a charm to hand crafted objects because each one carries the risk of failure during the crafting process while success results in something which may resemble other things but retains a uniqueness that will be difficult to replicate as automation by definition kills the kitschy sort of appeal it had in the first place.

Who says automation cannot make unique items? Computers can retain a perfect record of every item they've ever made; if you tell it to randomly perturb the least functionally consequential parameters of the design until it's sufficiently different from every item it's ever made, the only question is how fast you can make the comparison (the compactness of the representation also matters, but spline interpolation alone can stop that being the limiting factor for most things where the shape is the important part.)

If you want it to randomly mess up the fabrication, it can do that too. You can even skew the randomness to match what a human would most likely mess up, if you want.
The imperfection isn't the point, the point is those imperfections are there because a person was making it. A human can still make a bunch of "flawless" products that are effectively the same to another person's eye, perfection isn't the point. In either case it's given special value because a human made it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 07, 2019, 12:34:40 am
In either case it's given special value because a human made it.

This is kind of the inevitable end of these arguments: the only thing automata inarguably can't do is make things that will then have been made by humans, but founding our hopes on that sort of cedes the point in a way that has far-reaching consequences for craftsmanship as a concept and as a career, because it's no longer about the product but rather the process, and everyone selling a feel-good story about plucky baseline humans still doing things the good old-fashioned failure-prone way with sweat and blood and whatever other assorted fluids sound poetic is, in some sense, competing with each other. I could buy a handmade candlestick or buy an AI-turned one that's physically identical and cheaper, and get the same dopamine hit by buying a handmade mug or hat or any of an infinite array of completely nonfunctional art objects. The primary purpose of the thing isn't to be a thing anymore, but rather to be a symbol of resistance against the machines, and in that role anything works as well.

We've seen what happens to businesses where the primary value isn't in the products but rather in the story. That's fine art, and the demand for arbitrarily valuable objects through which to launder money is not elastic enough to cover everyone currently making things.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on August 07, 2019, 12:58:20 am
I'm sure that the machines could find a way to make something that then would be a thing made by humans.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 07, 2019, 02:56:04 am
Let's not conflate function approximation with godliness. People practically worship these damn things already.

They also literally worship them, but that's beside the point: godliness isn't necessary, and it's fun, in a schadenfreude-y way, to watch people insisting that their particular job is too special to ever be automated fall back on arguments about humanity being inherently special in some mystical yet marketable way in the absence of any meaningful, tangible difference between their work and the output of some conceivable machine. A whole lot of people are way less special than they like to think they are, and automation handily points that out.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 07, 2019, 05:57:15 am
They also literally worship them, but that's beside the point: godliness isn't necessary, and it's fun, in a schadenfreude-y way, to watch people insisting that their particular job is too special to ever be automated fall back on arguments about humanity being inherently special in some mystical yet marketable way in the absence of any meaningful, tangible difference between their work and the output of some conceivable machine. A whole lot of people are way less special than they like to think they are, and automation handily points that out.

Inb4 machine-philosopher defines human existence.
Inb4 automation of philosophy defines human existence.  :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on August 07, 2019, 07:36:08 am
"I shall now confer with the Machine Spirit to beg of it its superior wisdom..."

Code: [Select]
50CRATES OUTPUT CHANNEL:

THE ONLY DATA I HAVE INDEXED
IS THAT I DO NOT HAVE ANY DATA INDEXED

"Praise the great enlightenment of the Machine Spirit!"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 07, 2019, 11:36:33 am
I think we're missing the point about labels such as "hand made". It's not an independent label, it exists as a relative qualifier with a lot of other meaning attached to it. Like, if a sports-car is hand-made that doesn't just mean "made by humans" so we automatically assume it's better, that means that all the parts were custom-built rather than relying on commodity components. And you expect the parts were milled on machines instead of being cast or stamped on a production line. There's a functional difference there.

It's not just that the thing was made by a person: the label "hand made" is implicitly opposed to the concept of "mass produced", and the concept of "mass production" doesn't necessarily imply robots. You can have mass-produced items completely made by hand. What mass-production means is that the items didn't have individual attention to detail taken for them: bulk processes, production line, stock components, cheap processes like stamping or casting. None of this requires automation, so "hand made" isn't diametrically opposed to "robot made", it's opposed to cheaply made.

So when people are happier to buy something because it's "hand made" they don't mean a functionally equivalent item that just happened to be made by hand, they mean that they expect the quality to be higher, and the thing not to fall to bits 5 minutes after purchase. "hand made" was a short hand for that attention to detail. And people are discerning enough to know what categories of things it's a useful short-hand for. Hand-made shoes, suits, sports cars etc are a thing that people want, because they know that means quality and attention to detail, and those are things that are difficult to fully automate and maintain quality. Hand-made jewelry is going to be worth more too, because jewelry is art and art that is unique is always worth more that art that is not unique.

"hand made iPhone" is something nobody wants, because we know that hand-made electronics is a terrible idea. Nobody is more interested in something just because it's hand-made, there need to be additional benefits associated with it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 07, 2019, 02:06:43 pm
You can assign the term whatever connotation you want, but legally, "hand-made" really does just mean "made by hand." Per the FTC:


Quote from: 23.3 Misuse of the terms 'hand-made,' 'hand-polished,' etc.
(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the human-run process control implicitly governing "hand-made" products is worse than the mass-produced alternative. I'm just saying that, if we are seriously suggesting that stochastic manufacturing processes add value, there's nothing stopping us adding random perturbations to whatever heuristic we're using to fit the process to the feedstock to emulate that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on August 07, 2019, 02:14:35 pm
@reelya: hand-made can still mean 'cobbled from scrap', which is probably what a hand-made iphone would be. Still, as you imply, the context does matter, a home-made/handmade item may not always mean quality (unless it's cooking, but that's different). It's the difference between a master of a craft making something vs MacGuyvering something.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on August 07, 2019, 03:03:04 pm
Oh honey, home made doesn't necessarily mean quality in cooking, either. It just means you don't have someone else to blame if it comes out tasting like shit :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 08, 2019, 05:12:51 am
To go back to the topic of automation and nursing for a sec, aren't some form of electronic harness and pulley systems already in use in some care homes? Friend of the family developed pretty severe dementia and so was placed in a care home, and they used an electronic pulley system to get him out of bed instead of doing it by hand.

This is in the UK, so don't know if that's a thing elsewhere yet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 08, 2019, 06:15:25 am
Yes, I'm that pedant:  That pulley system sounds like mechanization, not automation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 08, 2019, 07:23:49 am
It's probably a good distinction to make, even if a strict line couldn't be drawn.

Otherwise, literally every machine becomes "automation" and the term itself becomes meaningless. Because, if the bed-lift is automation, then so is a wheelbarrow, because the wheelbarrow replaces the need to carry things by hand.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on August 08, 2019, 07:32:44 am
To go back to the topic of automation and nursing for a sec, aren't some form of electronic harness and pulley systems already in use in some care homes? Friend of the family developed pretty severe dementia and so was placed in a care home, and they used an electronic pulley system to get him out of bed instead of doing it by hand.

This is in the UK, so don't know if that's a thing elsewhere yet.
Quick check has some show up. You're talking hundreds of dollars for a patient lift device (that's pretty large and bulky). Lot cheaper to just wear out next of kin, who's still going to be doing a fair amount of lifting even with that sort of aid. Which is an issue when elder care is already ruinously expensive for a lot of folks.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 08, 2019, 07:39:04 am
The ones I know of are used in care homes, like when dealing with patients with the level of dementia that requires constant care and therefore a care home. Doubt they'd be used in situations where at-home care is an option, since that should really mean someone can provide some basic level of survival, and more needs someone to pop over and check than 24/7 support.

Otherwise, literally every machine becomes "automation" and the term itself becomes meaningless. Because, if the bed-lift is automation, then so is a wheelbarrow, because the wheelbarrow replaces the need to carry things by hand.

Except that means you need to hire less people to carry stuff, since one person with a wheelbarrow can do the job of several people without. 100% automation is just another stage in the same process that gave rise to the wheelbarrow, but it is still fundamentally just another continuation of the previous mechanizations. This isn't a new problem, it's an accelerating problem that starting picking up speed with the discovery of the steam engine and the collapse of the cottage industry in the industrial revolution that followed, and got another kick with the invention of the transistor.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on August 08, 2019, 07:49:26 am
Oh, care homes and whatnot has that sort of thing, sure, I think. When they're not skimping on costs or equipment, anyway. They're funded by violently fucking the finances of their patients and their patients' relatives, though. Plenty of stateside families just... don't have the money to get fucked. Gov't support of extended elderly care is pretty slim, generally an utter bitch to get into (particularly for people having to deal with a person that needs the care while trying to navigate that shit) and, of course, forever being sabotaged by GOP anti-healthcare (and everything else) effots.

You still need people to use the things, though. And to convince the patient to get into them, probably clean varyingly literal shit off the devices, etc., etc. They're more wheelbarrow than automated call service or somethin'.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 08, 2019, 07:52:26 am
They're funded by violently fucking the finances of their patients and their patients' relatives, though.

Yeah, from the UK perspective here so...care homes for the elderly who lack the capacity for private funding seem pretty "a thing that state should provide".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 08, 2019, 07:55:39 am
Except that means you need to hire less people to carry stuff, since one person with a wheelbarrow can do the job of several people without. 100% automation is just another stage in the same process that gave rise to the wheelbarrow, but it is still fundamentally just another continuation of the previous mechanizations. This isn't a new problem, it's an accelerating problem that starting picking up speed with the discovery of the steam engine and the collapse of the cottage industry in the industrial revolution that followed, and got another kick with the invention of the transistor.

Still no. Because "automation" comes from the root "automatic", and there's nothing automatic about a wheelbarrow. Just reducing the number of workers, but still having everything done manually isn't "automation", since if the humans stop working, the whole thing stops, hence it isn't automatic. It's just a more efficient, but still non-automated process.

Terms become less useful for discussion when they're too broadly applied. If you take that argument of yours to the logical extreme, virtually anything is automation: a calculator is automation, but so is an abacus, because both allow you to have less people needed to add up figures. But ... so is a pencil and paper since a pencil and paper allows the same exact thing: higher productivity when doing calculations. A stick? Means you need less people to kill prey during a hunt. Literally any tool ever = automation. Which you might argue is "correct", but it doesn't leave you with a very useful term for discussions.

The fact is, a term that means everything effectively means nothing, because you can't then use it to specify things, so it's not a useful definition of the term.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 08, 2019, 07:56:31 am
elder care is already ruinously expensive for a lot of folks.
Truth.  My father in law burned through $40k in savings in 7 months.  Partly because he's half senile and doesn't know how to budget, but also because assisted living is just expensive.

Incidentally, this is a reasonable health care expense: if you are hiring caregivers, it's straight-up labor cost as a minimum.  Consider if you want 4 hours of care every day of the year, which is pretty minimal (it's basically wake up / bedtime, ensuring meds are taken, meals, some basic hygiene).  This is 1460 hours a year.  Say you get a bargain price of only $20/hour - that's still $29,200 a year or $2433 a month.

And because it's "dedicated" care you can't really spread it around - you'd have to get extra funding from people not using the service for it to be affordable.

POST-PREVIEW EDIT:  This is the core of the US health care system debate actually:  any time you have an expensive service used by a few people, and that service is one you want to guarantee (rather than just have it only available to "the rich"), you have to get payments from a lot of people who don't need the service so the service is affordable for the individuals who do need it.  Thus the arguments about just how much those who won't use the service should pay so that those who need it can have it.  And that's even before you get into price gouging, etc.  Just take the example above with a single wage kind of thing, without any overhead at all.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 08, 2019, 08:03:01 am
Just reducing the number of workers, but still having everything done manually isn't "automation", since if the humans stop working, the whole thing stops, hence it isn't automatic. It's just a more efficient, but still non-automated process.

Except if you apply so strict a definition then nothing is automated yet, since humans are still involved at various points in every pipeline that presently exists. Even if it's just one person pressing the button to start and stop, or a person whose job is to keep the options up-to-date with the current processes they integrate with.

The problems aren't automating things, it's
* Job losses due to reducing requirement on human labour in one field requiring retraining infrastructure for a new field and the temporary unemployment rates that creates
* If the reduction in human labour increases faster than capacity to produce fresh labour increases. so total possible employment decreases.

This is a problem common to all replacement of human labour with mechanically automatic alternatives, not just 100% replacement with perfect automation. So limiting the discussion just to a hypothetical idealised form of automation isn't useful when discussing the socio-political-economic consequences and management therein.

A wheel-barrow is just as extreme a poor example as a 0% human interaction system would be, when the discussion really needs to focus on the consequences of up-coming and near-future-tech tools that reduce active human participants in that form of labour, whilst mechanised equipment that can allow one person to perform a lifting operation that may have required multiple people is exactly that kind of job-reducing equipment.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 08, 2019, 08:08:54 am
No, that's not correct.

You push a button, some actions happen automatically. Those actions are automated. Therefore, a washing machine is automation, but a manual washboard is not. You're trying to argue that it's all or nothing, that if any human interacts with the system at any point, it's not "automation".

But, wouldn't that include a client ordering a product from an automated factory? After all, the product wouldn't get produced by the factory unless a client ordered it. So, that logically is the same as having a person standing there who pushed the "start" button of the automated factory.

So, we can say that automation is when you replace actions of a person with a machine that does those actions instead of a person. Thus, an abacus isn't automation, since a human must push the beads, but a pocket calculator is automation, since it performs the steps of the algorithms needed to do the basic calculation: it replaces the need for the human to know how to perform the task.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 08, 2019, 08:10:07 am
Except that you still need a person to load and unload the washing machine, so the whole washing process is not automated. It reduces the total time and therefore labourers required, but does not eliminate them.

Would it still be automated if a human needed to turn a crank to spin the washing? What if that one human could still wash more clothing faster than 5 people with washboards? Automation is a type of mechanisation, and the ideal type of mechanisation, but the political-social-economical consequences of it are just going to be the most extreme manifestations of the consequences of mechanisation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 08, 2019, 08:14:42 am
Just because the "whole" process isn't automated doesn't mean that some part of it isn't automated. You're arguing against a straw man.

And anyway, even if the machine loaded and unloaded itself, that still requires a human to give it the order. So you could say that giving the verbal order is a task that was needed to be done manually, so it's still not automation by that standard.

An automated process is one that carries on without human intervention once you set it off. I'd argue that a washing machine washing clothes fits that bill.

You don't have to assume that loading and unloading the machine is part of that automated process. Whether you push a button, give a command or load a machine to start it doesn't change whether what the machine does after you did that is automated or not.

You're just arbitrarily saying that the "washing clothes" process must include the larger context of processes in which it's embedded, and if any of those outer processes aren't automated, then none of the parts can be automated, which isn't actually a coherent argument. It's like saying that a peanut butter sandwich doesn't contain peanuts, on the basis that the bread isn't peanuts.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 08, 2019, 08:16:10 am
Just because the "whole" process isn't automated doesn't mean that some part of it isn't automated. Your arguing against a straw man.

My point is that the socio-political-econical consequences of automation are not because automation is special, but because automation is a subcategory of mechanisation. Reducing the effort put into the labour to reduce the total number of people who do the labour is what mechanisation does, wholly automated steps just remove more effort than a wheel barrow or mechanical lifting apparatus, but the considerations you need to put into handling the consequences on jobs and labour markets are the same because the consequences, gradual reduction in total labour required, are the same.

If anything, you need to pass *through* mechanisation and partial automation to reach 100% automation. You aren't going to wake up one day and find all of nursing is done by robots, just that gradually more and more of it is aided by machines and so less people are needed to achieve greater production.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 08, 2019, 08:26:09 am
But now you're changing the entire nature of your argument. We were just argument about the definition of the specific word, but now you're talking about socio-political value systems. That's a non-sequitur.

you talk about the "socio-political-econical consequences of automation" and then point out that this is not that different to the My point is that the socio-political-econical consequences of mechanization". But ... that's entirely besides the point of what we were discussing. Whether or not two different things have some of the same issues associated with them doesn't have any bearing on whether the words mean the same thing or different things.

Just because the consequences of improved tools and the consequences of automation are similar doesn't means improved tools equals automation. Automation is when a process runs without human supervision, no matter how long or short that period is. If a human must manually operate the machine at all time periods, it's not automation, regardless of the "social consequences" being similar.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 08, 2019, 08:30:32 am
But now you're changing the entire nature of your argument. We were just argument about the definition of the specific word, but now you're talking about socio-political value systems. That's a non-sequitur.

I think we misunderstood what each other was referring to initailly.

The discussion I was referring to originally was about the automation-and-nursing discussion, which was about how nursing is or isn't automation proof. I thought you objected to my referral of the pulley systems as an example of that lack-of-automation-proofing not being true because there is room for mechanical aide because it isn't 'true' automation.

As I understand it, when we talk about 'automation replacing jobs', all we're really talking about is that process of steps/sections of labour being gradually replaced with ever-increasing mechanisation that ends with it being primarily mechanised with minimal human input required and therefore lowering labour requirements and therefore available jobs vs output over time.

My point was that, isn't the pulley system an example of one such 'mechanisation' which leads to the process that ends in automation?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 08, 2019, 08:49:24 am
It's definitely true that mechanization can open up a task for automation, but at least sticking to the definition side of things, the actual definition of automation is pretty well established already:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automation

The main criteria is that the process uses automated control/feedback loops. So, if the pulley system has control circuits which make decisions about when to start and stop the lifting process then that aspect of it is automated. If a human is making all the decisions, we generally don't call that automation.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 08, 2019, 08:53:21 am
Doesn't help that what I've been referring to as a pulley is still an electronic system where the nurse presses a button and it lifts the person to a certain height then stops. Then they press another button to let the person back down again.

It's not operated by hand in the sense that they physically pull a wire to lift the person, but it was described to me as an electric pulley :) Didn't realize if you thought I meant a physical pulley system xD

Think these are examples of them: https://www.nrshealthcare.co.uk/mobility-aids/moving-transferring-handling-aids/mobile-hoists

Though you were comparing those to a wheel-barrow in terms of not being true automation since there is still human involvement so that they weren't worth discussing, which is the part of it I was focusing on and hence my "the core of the changes caused by these is the same as with a wheel-barrow" point and the road that all went down xD I didn't realise if you thought I meant a wholly mechanical pulley system, so I was trying to say that comparing those to a wheelbarrow misses the point of the discussion, sorry that this didn't come across correctly.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on August 08, 2019, 10:31:39 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/newsbeat-49265125

Goddammit you guys, now we've made extraterrestrials.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on August 08, 2019, 12:13:04 pm
Saw a similar article elsewhere. Learned we apparently left over a hundred bags of literal shit on the moon the last time we had people on it. There was probably something similar to water bears if not straight up actually them involved then, too.

So this is round N+1 of extraterrestrial creation, not an opening round. At least this time we're only throwing broken space junk at it instead of literally pooping them out. We're getting better!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 08, 2019, 09:32:49 pm
lIt isn't about anything quite as malleable or personally defined as value, btw, it's just the difference between crafting something in such a way that the risk of failure persists like I do with my tools; and crafting something in a way that reduces or eliminates those risks entirely.

I could run a CNC and have it spit out blanks, hit the corners with a router to smooth them over into a chamfer, switch to a drill press and some smaller bits to mark and start hogging out relevant material from the spine and bolt countersink holes, while running the blanks across a sanding belt and disc bit by bit.

If done right the only risks are down to the actual skills involved in using the machinery safely, and each chunk of wood I run through could wind up matching it's siblings down to tolerances well below scales we can see easily, and outside of fairly catastrophic flaws causing a blank to flat out explode then errors are probably originating between the keyboard and the chair.

Is it silly to act as though a hand crafted tool is just automatically better? Definitely, especially when so many potential differences are shit where even the person who crafted it may struggle to identify them. I can turn something I made last year around in my hands with sharp sidelighting and pick out tool marks and hesitation errors and spots where my technique was unable to compensate for difficult grain arrangement. Over the last month and a half or so I not only got better at preventing those types of flaws in the first place, I figured out how to cut out most of the steps I previously tried to use for cleaning them up. My work flow used to involve far more rasping, filing, and sanding than necessary once I learned how to scrape properly. As a result I can now see certain tell-tale signs of a power sanded vs hand sanded surface which I can avoid completely.

What's the point one might ask, if they noticed how much smoother a piece of wood feels after heavy sanding compared to one I scraped which may still need some pore sealing?

Therein lies the rub, if you will, I have done this enough to appreciate when a piece of wood doesn't have torn fibers and dust smashed flat against the exposed surface because it doesn't obscure the way the microstructures in the grain look in the right light, and it doesn't artificially smooth out the naturally varied textures exposed when you slice material away with a scraper edge so all the ridges and bumps in your fingertips register against the flats and valleys and pits that emerge when you see a growth ring and pores under magnification.

I can't easily demonstrate this to you here though, but I could let you hold two otherwise identical handles and I bet you'd be able to tell there was something different in the way they feel even if you didn't quite know how to explain what it was.


Which goes back to mass produced vs hand crafted results and little things even I wouldn't have noticed before like overly sharp edge transitions between a curved section and a flat on the side of a handle that could end up contributing to a callus later on, which is hard to predict if you haven't used something enough to develop a callus with it in the first place, and accordingly is difficult to know how to remedy and prevent beforehand.

None of which gets into the artistic/stylistic side of things.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on August 08, 2019, 09:49:54 pm
Or, to put another way, it's about craftsman(or woman)ship with that undefined quality that you can't really get from automated proccesses. I mean, sure, machines these days can easily make things with the same qualities as a high tier Master in their craft would, or even better (once you program them anyway), but I don't think automated proccesses can yet replicate that sort of undefined quality.

Though that line is going to become increasingly blurred as machines and programming becomes more sophisticated and more able to mimic that handmade quality. Or maybe handmade/crafted will take on an entirely new meaning.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Folly on August 09, 2019, 04:00:34 am
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/08/severe-local-0-day-escalation-exploit-found-in-steam-client-services/ (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/08/severe-local-0-day-escalation-exploit-found-in-steam-client-services/)

Quote
Earlier today, disgruntled security researcher Vasily Kravets released a zero-day vulnerability in the Windows version of the ubiquitous gaming service Steam. The vulnerability allows any user to run arbitrary code with LOCALSYSTEM privileges using just a very few simple commands.

Is it time to panic?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 09, 2019, 07:06:55 am
easily fixed locally with a registry ACL.  Setting this to administrators group ownership for write (at minimum) will prevent normal user from deleting the key, and injecting the exploit.

Just open regedit (run as admin!), browse to the key in question. right click on the key, and choose "permissions...". 

uncheck "include inheritable permissions" checkbox. Click apply. (A system window appears, asking if you want to add the inherited permissions, or delete them. Click add.)
check "Replace all child object permissions" checkbox. Click apply. (another system message appears, stating that you are overwriting all children with inherited permissions from parent object. pick YES)

Now that we have sanitized the ACL's inheritence for this object, we can manage it.

First, be sure to give full control to administrators:
Select Administrators from the list, and click edit.
Make sure full control is checked, if it is not already. (If not, clicking this explicitly grants all privs to administrators group users for you.)
click OK

Now we limit what normal users can do:
select Users from the list, and click edit.
uncheck full control if it is already checked. (this is what we DONT want!)
uncheck set value
uncheck create subkey
uncheck create link
uncheck delete
uncheck write DAC
uncheck write owner

DO NOT click anything in deny!! (The way windows permissions works, Deny takes priority over allow. Since all users, including admins, are members of the users group, this deny will override the explicit allows given to that group!! Unless you WANT a registry key that is untouchable, DO NOT check any of the deny boxes!)

click OK.

Click OK again to close the advanced permissions editor.

Click OK again to close the general permissions editor.

BOOM-- All safe now.



Valve could of course, roll in the necessary registry operations to harden this key this way with the installer for their next client update. We'll see how seriously they take this.




Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 09, 2019, 10:19:54 am
Odd, I closed steam and reopened it. No issues. Then again, I did this to HKLM\SOFTWARE\Wow6432node\Valve\Steam\NSIS

That is the key that gets deleted, and replaced with a link pointing elsewhere that facilitates the exploit.  Hitting just the Valve key, or Steam key, I could see Steam throwing a fit over that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on August 09, 2019, 10:43:24 am
I tried to do as instructed, but cannot find any checkbox for include inheritable permissions
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on August 09, 2019, 11:05:21 am
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/08/severe-local-0-day-escalation-exploit-found-in-steam-client-services/ (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/08/severe-local-0-day-escalation-exploit-found-in-steam-client-services/)

Quote
Earlier today, disgruntled security researcher Vasily Kravets released a zero-day vulnerability in the Windows version of the ubiquitous gaming service Steam. The vulnerability allows any user to run arbitrary code with LOCALSYSTEM privileges using just a very few simple commands.

Is it time to panic?

From the way the article puts it, they sound more like a whistleblower than disgruntled, but I suppose there’s a fine line between the two.

Besides, it sounds like the infosec company put blinders on to other possibilities, especially after a second person reproduced it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 09, 2019, 11:56:08 am
I tried to do as instructed, but cannot find any checkbox for include inheritable permissions

I am driving a win7 machine, because I hate win10.  That might be part of it.  I can make pictures though. Hold on.

Spoiler: Now with Images (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on August 09, 2019, 01:10:02 pm
Yeah, from the UK perspective here so...care homes for the elderly who lack the capacity for private funding seem pretty "a thing that state should provide".

Agreed. (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 09, 2019, 01:20:49 pm
Mere seconds after posting updated instruction for the steam bug, centurylink, my isp, decides it needs to go down.  Posting from my phone, via cellular.

American ISPs are great, ya?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on August 09, 2019, 01:59:07 pm
Mere seconds after posting updated instruction for the steam bug, centurylink, my isp, decides it needs to go down.  Posting from my phone, via cellular.

American ISPs are great, ya?

It isn't so bad. Mine has 9 fives uptime.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on August 09, 2019, 06:37:18 pm
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/08/severe-local-0-day-escalation-exploit-found-in-steam-client-services/ (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/08/severe-local-0-day-escalation-exploit-found-in-steam-client-services/)

Quote
Earlier today, disgruntled security researcher Vasily Kravets released a zero-day vulnerability in the Windows version of the ubiquitous gaming service Steam. The vulnerability allows any user to run arbitrary code with LOCALSYSTEM privileges using just a very few simple commands.

Is it time to panic?

Looks like Steam just fixed it in their beta* or something as it just updated a bit ago with this in the changelog:
Steam Windows Service
Fixed privilege escalation exploit using symbolic links in Windows registry

*I opted into the Steam Beta a while back when they borked text size and didn't bother changing back.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 10, 2019, 07:08:23 am
Mere seconds after posting updated instruction for the steam bug, centurylink, my isp, decides it needs to go down.  Posting from my phone, via cellular.

American ISPs are great, ya?

It isn't so bad. Mine has 9 fives uptime.
It's OK. My ISP has assigned my home router an IP address that is on an Akamai blacklist.  Some of my bill-pay websites now just give me Akamai's infamous "Access Denied" error.

DHCP renew doesn't work on my end, so I'm going to have to call them to fix it.

I can work around it by plugging my computer directly into the modem, so it's not critical, but I'm annoyed for at least these reasons:
1. ISP doesn't assign different IP addresses when I do a DHCP renew.
2. Some third party has the ability to block my IP without my knowledge, for unknown reasons.
3. The tech support at my bill-pay site wasn't able to figure out that the error message I was getting was an Akamai block, but I was.
4. I will have to call my ISP to ask for a new address.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on August 10, 2019, 12:00:11 pm
I can confirm windows 10 looks completely different on that front, instead of those two options there's just a disable button, which I don't know if that will do the same thing or not tbh
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Magistrum on August 12, 2019, 09:01:21 pm
 Yeah, it does the same thing, click it and it will prompt you to choose if you want to convert the inherited permissions to explicit permissions on the object(yes, this is what we want) or if you just want to rid it of all permissions.
 Choose the first option and then proceed exactly as Wierd showed, you will double-click the group you want to edit. It will look a bit different, you need to click "show advanced permissions" or something like that. It is not in columns, but it shows the same items as the pic Wierd sent us.
 Give permissions to the administrator group and remove the permissions wierd stated(set value, create subkey, create link, delete, write DAC, write owner) from the users group.

EDIT:
I am driving a win7 machine, because I hate win10.  That might be part of it.  I can make pictures though. Hold on.
Different since win8, yeah.

Also, just move to win 10 already mate. You are very knowledgeable though, I can't tell you anything you don't already know, but all that means is that you are aware that you should've made the switch way earlier.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 12, 2019, 09:13:47 pm
Built a computer for father-in-law recently, got it where it boots and is ready for a system install, he asked me if I had experience with win 10.

I laughed, haven't got a clue how to install that shit, can't even remember how to do a fresh install of arch anymore but it bootstraps just fine to new systems.

As for permissions, chmod --help but I don't think w10 has incorporated all of  that yet, though it does handle some native linux stuff better now.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Folly on August 12, 2019, 09:27:43 pm
Russian nuclear-powered cruise missile (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/08/russian-nuclear-powered-cruise-missile-blows-up-creating-mini-chernobyl/)

So Russia is experimenting with Nuclear-powered missiles. These missiles would be capable of flying significantly higher and further, and staying in the air much longer compared to non-nuclear-powered missiles. One of them just exploded.

Can someone smart please reassure me that this definitely is not going to end with radioactive material being released into the upper atmosphere and then carried by the winds to every corner of the earth and leaving nothing alive except cockroaches?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on August 12, 2019, 09:37:22 pm
Well, for one thing a single missile exploding wouldn't be a world ending event even if it was a dirty bomb.

On the large scale of what happens if we start using nuclear powered rockets, well, it depends.  There are both closed cycle nuclear rocket and jet engines, which don't release nuclear material, and open cycle engines which do.  I'm pretty sure open cycle engines are lighter and have better performance, so it would be tempting to use that for a rocket engine.

If it could be proven that's what's happening I'd expect extreme domestic and international outrage at the risks imposed by that, even if the rockets didn't otherwise violate any treaties and carried conventional warheads.

I'm not sure just what kind of volume of open cycle nuclear rocket engines being used we'd have to see for there to be detectable environmental effects, but I'd be surprised if it's feasible to make an apocalypse that way.  At least by accident.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on August 12, 2019, 10:37:26 pm
Russian nuclear-powered cruise missile (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/08/russian-nuclear-powered-cruise-missile-blows-up-creating-mini-chernobyl/)

So Russia is experimenting with Nuclear-powered missiles. These missiles would be capable of flying significantly higher and further, and staying in the air much longer compared to non-nuclear-powered missiles. One of them just exploded.

Can someone smart please reassure me that this definitely is not going to end with radioactive material being released into the upper atmosphere and then carried by the winds to every corner of the earth and leaving nothing alive except cockroaches?
of course it won't, the cockroaches will die off come winter
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 12, 2019, 11:03:30 pm
Yeah, it does the same thing, click it and it will prompt you to choose if you want to convert the inherited permissions to explicit permissions on the object(yes, this is what we want) or if you just want to rid it of all permissions.
 Choose the first option and then proceed exactly as Wierd showed, you will double-click the group you want to edit. It will look a bit different, you need to click "show advanced permissions" or something like that. It is not in columns, but it shows the same items as the pic Wierd sent us.
 Give permissions to the administrator group and remove the permissions wierd stated(set value, create subkey, create link, delete, write DAC, write owner) from the users group.

EDIT:
I am driving a win7 machine, because I hate win10.  That might be part of it.  I can make pictures though. Hold on.
Different since win8, yeah.

Also, just move to win 10 already mate. You are very knowledgeable though, I can't tell you anything you don't already know, but all that means is that you are aware that you should've made the switch way earlier.

The plan is to run out the clock on win7, then go all on-board with Mint, or Xubuntu.

unless microsoft backtracks hard on how it treats power users, I will not be using their OS, even for games.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on August 13, 2019, 01:07:59 am
Can someone smart please reassure me that this definitely is not going to end with radioactive material being released into the upper atmosphere and then carried by the winds to every corner of the earth and leaving nothing alive except cockroaches?

Well, it's a cruise missile. They don't go into the upper atmosphere in the first place; they cruise like airplanes, hence the name. ICBMs are the ones that go in ballistic suborbital arcs.

It looks like the Skyfall is an attempt to build a cruise missile with intercontinental range so as to avoid our anti-missile defenses and demonstrate a new capacity to destroy Washington Mar-A-Lago with impunity.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 13, 2019, 01:23:11 am
Trade wars, recessions, and cold wars...

Tell me again, when will the shadow of the McCarthy era finally dissolve?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 13, 2019, 01:26:47 am
Can someone smart please reassure me that this definitely is not going to end with radioactive material being released into the upper atmosphere and then carried by the winds to every corner of the earth and leaving nothing alive except cockroaches?

This is a fallacy. Cockroaches won't survive without humans, they're dependent on our urban ecosystems.

But you'd need a lot of those missiles to explode or release fallout for that to even happen.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: smjjames on August 13, 2019, 01:29:54 am
Can someone smart please reassure me that this definitely is not going to end with radioactive material being released into the upper atmosphere and then carried by the winds to every corner of the earth and leaving nothing alive except cockroaches?

This is a fallacy. Cockroaches won't survive without humans, they're dependent on our urban ecosystems.

But you'd need a lot of those missiles to explode or release fallout for that to even happen.

Just the ones dependent on the urban ecosystems anyway.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 13, 2019, 01:33:12 am
German roaches are quite capable of living outside, they just have this nasty problem of every insect predator in the universe finding them irresistibly delicious.  (It's one of the reasons why they are such prolific type R strategists, and subsequently, why they are so hard to eradicate in human controlled ecosystems where predators are kept down, and food supplies are abundant.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on August 13, 2019, 04:26:28 am
-
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 13, 2019, 04:51:38 am
A german roach? Or one outside?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 13, 2019, 08:55:58 am
Here's a good one. A security researcher in the US decided to get personal license plate 'NULL'. All good so far.

Once he got his first citation for doing anything wrong however, and his details went into the database for the ticketing system, a flood of other tickets poured in, all for license plate 'NULL'. It turns out that was the sentinel value if an actual license plate number for an infringement couldn't be determined.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 13, 2019, 10:01:02 am
Yup, guilty of dereferencing 0 in an indexed lane.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on August 13, 2019, 10:08:48 am
2. Some third party has the ability to block my IP without my knowledge, for unknown reasons.

If you're seeing it very often, you're probably part of a block of blacklisted IPs because somebody in that block is a prolific spammer/scammer. Guilt by association.


Trade wars, recessions, and cold wars...

Tell me again, when will the shadow of the McCarthy era finally dissolve?

When politicians decide they don't benefit from keeping the population cowed with fear, or we guillotine them all.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on August 13, 2019, 12:33:46 pm
When politicians decide they don't benefit from keeping the population cowed with fear, or we guillotine them all.

*Googles "how to build a guillotine"

Hey, that one looks pretty decent, lemme see what... Dammit.


*Googles "how to build a guillotine -pinterest"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on August 13, 2019, 02:46:48 pm
A german roach? Or one outside?

A cockroach at all, at least in real... I like looking at insects but I don't feel like I missed out on anything in this case.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 13, 2019, 03:02:32 pm
How fortunate for you.  I have seen at least 4 different species up close, and first hand.

In addition to the nasty and very difficult to eradicate german cockroach (*shudder*.. Service calls back in the day.. eewww...), I also got to experience the joy of the oriental cockroach (https://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/orientalroach1.htm), after a company I used to work for accidentally imported some in a shipment of computer chasis, as well as the mostly harmless american  woods cockroach (https://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/woods.htm), which likes to hang out on windowscreens early in the spring, I have also had the .. pleasure.. of getting to see and handle some large hissing roaches. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-pmD09JR38)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on August 13, 2019, 03:31:17 pm
Only place I really remember having roaches was the house in Vegas. Nice fat American Cockroaches waddling around like they owned the place... And Nevada is Nevada, so of course they flew too.

Still, preferred them to the black widow infestations we had every so often...


The giant moth swarms in spring were honestly just kinda cool, never had much issue with them.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 13, 2019, 03:35:24 pm
This is a fallacy. Cockroaches won't survive without humans, they're dependent on our urban ecosystems.

This is so wrong, at least in Australia (but I'd be surprised if it wasn't global).

"Virtually all terrestrial habitats in Australia have native cockroaches present, including some caves which are host to specialised pale blind and wingless species of cockoaches."
"Native cockroaches feed in trees on pollen, bark and leaf material."
https://australianmuseum.net.au/learn/animals/insects/native-cockroaches/ (https://australianmuseum.net.au/learn/animals/insects/native-cockroaches/)



Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 13, 2019, 06:46:14 pm
Black widows are gorgeous up close, roaches... well, having had to deal with a house that was infested only to later have someone bring some pots over to our house and say "whoops" when a couple escaped... fucking bitch... let's just say I'm glad that niche is covered by palmetto bugs here. Look very similar, still reflexively sets off the "FUCKING NUKE IT ALL" instinct in me, but way less interested in living indoors.

Still doesn't help when you go to kill one over the toilet and it hops off the wall towards you, so you take a step back to discover what happens when the back of your knees hit the side of a tub.

Spoiler alert: you kinda rapidly sit down in the tub and gain a concussion!

Let's go take a nap after I kill this bug!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 13, 2019, 08:44:09 pm
This is a fallacy. Cockroaches won't survive without humans, they're dependent on our urban ecosystems.

This is so wrong, at least in Australia (but I'd be surprised if it wasn't global).

"Virtually all terrestrial habitats in Australia have native cockroaches present, including some caves which are host to specialised pale blind and wingless species of cockoaches."
"Native cockroaches feed in trees on pollen, bark and leaf material."
https://australianmuseum.net.au/learn/animals/insects/native-cockroaches/ (https://australianmuseum.net.au/learn/animals/insects/native-cockroaches/)

Native cockroaches are nothing like the invasive urban ones. The ones people mean when they say cockroaches will survive a nuclear blast aren't "bush" roaches as we called them in country Australia, they're the 1-2 species of worldwide urban ones. The German Cockroach and other big city ones will nearly completely die out once humans are gone.

EDIT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockroach
There are 4600 cockroach species, but only 30 are found around human habitation, and only 4 of them are notable as being pest species, all of which are introduced species. Those species will all mostly die out when humans are gone, they are dependent on our ecosystem.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on August 13, 2019, 08:47:17 pm
You know what's annoying, my internet went out and now the icon google chrome uses for bay 12 is this stupid at&t logo, how do I fix this?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 13, 2019, 08:48:17 pm
Ctrl-F5 to reload the page?
Clear the cache / history?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on August 13, 2019, 08:55:22 pm
thank you
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 14, 2019, 01:59:54 pm
Native cockroaches are nothing like the invasive urban ones. The ones people mean when they say cockroaches will survive a nuclear blast aren't "bush" roaches as we called them in country Australia, they're the 1-2 species of worldwide urban ones. The German Cockroach and other big city ones will nearly completely die out once humans are gone.

EDIT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockroach
There are 4600 cockroach species, but only 30 are found around human habitation, and only 4 of them are notable as being pest species, all of which are introduced species. Those species will all mostly die out when humans are gone, they are dependent on our ecosystem.

So cockroaches aren't cockroaches?  I'm not buying.  Bush roaches are cockroaches too!

The quotidian reason for thinking that cockroaches will take over the earth in the case of a catastrophic nuculear incident is their purported immunity to radioactivity, and although that contains a large degree of falsehood (as the wikipedia article you quote evidences) that was not the basis of your argument, which was expressly about their dependency on human urban ecosystems which is patently false.

(Even in the case of urban cockroaches I suspect that they are not 'dependent' on the urban environment but merely thrive under those conditions, hence the 'mostly' in your quoted statement - but this is beside the point...)

Making the argument that cockroaches aren't cockroaches is just hilarious. :)

--------------------------

Separately a study currently in the news demonstrates some worrying information.  Microscopic plastic fibers (and shards and balls) have been repeatedly found in rainfall. Including in about half of the samples taken from a remote mountainous site.

The implications of the pervasiveness of the dispersal of plastic in the contemporary ecosystem are disturbing.

'It is raining plastic'
https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/ofr20191048 (https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/ofr20191048)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on August 14, 2019, 03:17:39 pm
My joke/argument was because the cockroach the average joe thinks about is a tropical species and also cold blooded
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 14, 2019, 04:57:41 pm
Native cockroaches are nothing like the invasive urban ones. The ones people mean when they say cockroaches will survive a nuclear blast aren't "bush" roaches as we called them in country Australia, they're the 1-2 species of worldwide urban ones. The German Cockroach and other big city ones will nearly completely die out once humans are gone.

EDIT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockroach
There are 4600 cockroach species, but only 30 are found around human habitation, and only 4 of them are notable as being pest species, all of which are introduced species. Those species will all mostly die out when humans are gone, they are dependent on our ecosystem.

So cockroaches aren't cockroaches?  I'm not buying.  Bush roaches are cockroaches too!

The quotidian reason for thinking that cockroaches will take over the earth in the case of a catastrophic nuculear incident is their purported immunity to radioactivity, and although that contains a large degree of falsehood (as the wikipedia article you quote evidences) that was not the basis of your argument, which was expressly about their dependency on human urban ecosystems which is patently false.

(Even in the case of urban cockroaches I suspect that they are not 'dependent' on the urban environment but merely thrive under those conditions, hence the 'mostly' in your quoted statement - but this is beside the point...)

Making the argument that cockroaches aren't cockroaches is just hilarious. :)

My whole point was that the "cockroaches will take over the world" thing is built on two points. The nuclear survival one, but also the ubiquity of cockroaches around human habitation. The entire world population of wild cockroaches which aren't dependent on humans is a very small proportion of the total number of roaches.

The vast majority of cockroaches by numbers are entirely dependent on human civilization (probably something like 9999/10000 of all roaches). Sure, some cockroaches will be left if we die off, but a tiny fraction of the current population numbers, and almost none of those will be the species we normally interact with.

You're just being pedantic and ignoring what I actually meant. For example when people say e.g. "all the cats will die out" they almost certainly mean the domestic housecat species, even though technically, a lot of other things are cats, too. By your argument, everyone would also need to qualify any statement about cats since they could mean pumas or caracals or something, which are types of cats. Similarly, when I said cockroaches will die out once humans die out since they're associated with our urban ecosystems, naturally, I was talking about the common species of cockroaches that are assocated with humans, and as I pointed out, these are the ones people are talking about when they discuss cockroaches, not hypothetically Andean Tree Roaches or some such.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on August 14, 2019, 05:41:45 pm
Oh I beg to disagree, the common housecat has the best cards to survive the nuclear winter among all cats... For the same reason you cited with cockroaches: not all cats are as coddled as appartement cats and every now and then a litter gets raised guerilla style; outdoor cats, street cats, farm cats - you name 'em. Given that, they are the most widespread among all climatic zones and thus the few remaining cats that don't die locked in have a reasonable chance to find mates. There is a nice arte documentary about the wildlife that is reconquering the area around Chernobyl.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 14, 2019, 06:42:13 pm
Yeesh. that is such a non-sequitor.

I didn't make any sort of claim about cats in that regards, I was just using the category "cats" to point out colloquial use of language, that people mean the specific domestic housecat species when saying "cats".

I'm going to stop replying, because it's pointless discussing this further, since you're giving detailed rebuttals to positions I clearly don't even hold.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 14, 2019, 07:44:26 pm
Native cockroaches are nothing like the invasive urban ones. The ones people mean when they say cockroaches will survive a nuclear blast aren't "bush" roaches as we called them in country Australia, they're the 1-2 species of worldwide urban ones. The German Cockroach and other big city ones will nearly completely die out once humans are gone.

EDIT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockroach
There are 4600 cockroach species, but only 30 are found around human habitation, and only 4 of them are notable as being pest species, all of which are introduced species. Those species will all mostly die out when humans are gone, they are dependent on our ecosystem.

So cockroaches aren't cockroaches?  I'm not buying.  Bush roaches are cockroaches too!

The quotidian reason for thinking that cockroaches will take over the earth in the case of a catastrophic nuculear incident is their purported immunity to radioactivity, and although that contains a large degree of falsehood (as the wikipedia article you quote evidences) that was not the basis of your argument, which was expressly about their dependency on human urban ecosystems which is patently false.

(Even in the case of urban cockroaches I suspect that they are not 'dependent' on the urban environment but merely thrive under those conditions, hence the 'mostly' in your quoted statement - but this is beside the point...)

Making the argument that cockroaches aren't cockroaches is just hilarious. :)

My whole point was that the "cockroaches will take over the world" thing is built on two points. The nuclear survival one, but also the ubiquity of cockroaches around human habitation. The entire world population of wild cockroaches which aren't dependent on humans is a very small proportion of the total number of roaches.

The vast majority of cockroaches by numbers are entirely dependent on human civilization (probably something like 9999/10000 of all roaches). Sure, some cockroaches will be left if we die off, but a tiny fraction of the current population numbers, and almost none of those will be the species we normally interact with.

You're just being pedantic and ignoring what I actually meant. For example when people say e.g. "all the cats will die out" they almost certainly mean the domestic housecat species, even though technically, a lot of other things are cats, too. By your argument, everyone would also need to qualify any statement about cats since they could mean pumas or caracals or something, which are types of cats. Similarly, when I said cockroaches will die out once humans die out since they're associated with our urban ecosystems, naturally, I was talking about the common species of cockroaches that are assocated with humans, and as I pointed out, these are the ones people are talking about when they discuss cockroaches, not hypothetically Andean Tree Roaches or some such.

Actually as far as I can tell it is built on an apochryphal report that was adopted by the anti-nuclear movement and made into the meme it is today.  See, for example: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/07/will-cockroaches-really-be-the-last-survivors-on-earth.html (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/07/will-cockroaches-really-be-the-last-survivors-on-earth.html).  Although the original sighting (if there was such and it is not just an 'urban legend') was likely to be from a pest species of cockroach there is no guarantee it wasn't an early recolonisation from a non-urban species.

Thing is that even the pest species of cockroach are far from dependent on human civilization, yes they profit from it in terms of population density but they are more than capable of surviving without it.  Looking to Wikipedia for three of the four common pest species (the fourth is lacking relevant information there) it is noted that their diets are:

"German cockroaches are omnivorous scavengers. They are attracted particularly to meats, starches, sugars, and fatty foods. Where a shortage of foodstuff exists, they may eat household items such as soap, glue, and toothpaste. In famine conditions, they turn cannibalistic, chewing at each other's wings and legs."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cockroach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cockroach)

"American cockroaches are omnivorous and opportunistic feeders that eat materials such as cheese, beer, tea, leather, bakery products, starch in book bindings, manuscripts, glue, hair, flakes of dried skin, dead animals, plant materials, soiled clothing, and glossy paper with starch sizing. They are particularly fond of fermenting foods. They have also been observed to feed upon dead or wounded cockroaches of their own or other species."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_cockroach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_cockroach)

"[The Australian cockroach] appears to prefer eating plants more than its relatives do, but can feed on a wide array of organic (including decaying) matter. Like most cockroaches, it is a scavenger."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_cockroach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_cockroach)

I don't think any of these species will have difficulty surviving without human civilisation.  In fact although their numbers would almost certainly decline longer-term in a post-nuclear scenario in the short term they are likely to explode in numbers due to the abundance of rotting human flesh as a ready food supply.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 14, 2019, 08:21:12 pm
Quote
meats, starches, sugars, and fatty foods. Where a shortage of foodstuff exists, they may eat household items such as soap, glue, and toothpaste

ok ... none of these things generally exist just sitting around without us there. If they're lucky and there's a piece of meat out in the bush and nothing else is eating it, i guess the cockroaches could get some. but in the wild, they'll be competing with other species, such as ants. The urban type of cockroach build big social nests. They're not going to fare well once their core food supply disappears.

the thing is, once these sorts of high density food stuffs are gone they're going to be competing with more specialized species. Can they out-compete native species in a forest? The question is, do German Cockroaches for example colonize forests or other wilderness now. If not, there's no real reason to think they'll have any more success colonizing those sorts of areas once their main benefactors humans are gone. Like, in current green areas you don't tend to see many urban cockroaches scurrying around in the leaf matter.

Quote
In fact although their numbers would almost certainly decline longer-term in a post-nuclear scenario in the short term they are likely to explode in numbers due to the abundance of rotting human flesh as a ready food supply.

Right. This doesn't sound plausible long-term either, since rotting human flesh will be a finite resource. Additionally, a big reason roaches survive is that we actively suppress predators that might eat them. you might instead see a rat explosion, and they eat the rotting human flesh before it's digestible by the roaches. And then eat the roaches.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 14, 2019, 09:21:12 pm
Meat - any dead animal.
Starch - plant life generally.
Sugar - fruits.

Okay that's way over-generalising it but the short of it is that there will be no shortage of potential foods sources for omnivorous scavengers.  Of course existence for 320 million years (plus) is no guarantee of being able to compete with other species but I'm fairly confident that more than one of the 4600 (roughly) species will manage it.  ;D  Quite likely that even one or more of the 30 odd pest species will be amongst them.


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 14, 2019, 09:26:28 pm
My point was, those ecosystems are already full. if they were able to move into them, they already would have.  What you'd actually see is the country-side critters displacing the urban ones. City roaches aren't going to do too well once cities are just a bunch of concrete with weeds growing up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 14, 2019, 10:20:30 pm
Quote
meats, starches, sugars, and fatty foods. Where a shortage of foodstuff exists, they may eat household items such as soap, glue, and toothpaste

ok ... none of these things generally exist just sitting around without us there. If they're lucky and there's a piece of meat out in the bush and nothing else is eating it, i guess the cockroaches could get some. but in the wild, they'll be competing with other species, such as ants. The urban type of cockroach build big social nests. They're not going to fare well once their core food supply disappears.

the thing is, once these sorts of high density food stuffs are gone they're going to be competing with more specialized species. Can they out-compete native species in a forest? The question is, do German Cockroaches for example colonize forests or other wilderness now. If not, there's no real reason to think they'll have any more success colonizing those sorts of areas once their main benefactors humans are gone. Like, in current green areas you don't tend to see many urban cockroaches scurrying around in the leaf matter.

Quote
In fact although their numbers would almost certainly decline longer-term in a post-nuclear scenario in the short term they are likely to explode in numbers due to the abundance of rotting human flesh as a ready food supply.

Right. This doesn't sound plausible long-term either, since rotting human flesh will be a finite resource. Additionally, a big reason roaches survive is that we actively suppress predators that might eat them. you might instead see a rat explosion, and they eat the rotting human flesh before it's digestible by the roaches. And then eat the roaches.

According to a quick one liner from Orkin, German roaches can live outside in tropical climates.  Assuming AGW, their habitat may actually increase.

There's also this fluff piece in SciAm (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/where-theres-heat-there-are-cockroaches/) (From somebody who is not an entomologist) that states that they are originally native to southeast asia, and are adapted genetically to warm, humid environs.

Assuming we dont get nuclear winter (which would kill them with cold, not radiation), and instead AGW is the smoking gun on humanity, the roaches could well take over.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on August 15, 2019, 03:42:36 pm
There's also this fluff piece in SciAm (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/where-theres-heat-there-are-cockroaches/) (From somebody who is not an entomologist)

I forget, is it SciAm or AmSci that's the bad one? I remember seeing a several-page informational treatise on lecterns (of course including space dedicated entirely to reaffirming that lecterns are, get this, in fact not podiums) in one of them.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on August 16, 2019, 06:07:48 am
Okay, does anybody else want a gritty post-apocalyptic survival story about a family of Cockroaches trying to survive after humanity wiped itself out in nuclear winter?

Anybody? No? Just me then...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 16, 2019, 07:47:05 am
Only if the protagonist is Gregor Samsa.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on August 16, 2019, 08:24:02 am
:

shrug

The end.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on August 16, 2019, 10:34:14 am
Additionally, a big reason roaches survive is that we actively suppress predators that might eat them. you might instead see a rat explosion, and they eat the rotting human flesh before it's digestible by the roaches. And then eat the roaches.
Assuming the rats, etc., can handle the fallout as well as the roaches and don't end up sterile or malformed. The roaches' benefit is that they're simpler organisms.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 16, 2019, 11:21:15 am
I'm trying to see if any roaches are hangin' around Chernobyl (googled Chernobyl Cockroaches and other searches), but there's no references to them, only other insect types. There's an artist who collects and paints images of insects from Chernobyl etc, I looked at a bunch of her work (along with videos of people examining insects and wildlife in Chernobyl), didn't see any cockroaches among them. If roaches really are going to be the survivors, they should be all over the Chernobyl exclusion zone.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/chernobyls-bugs-art-and-science-life-after-nuclear-fallout-180951231/

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/would-cockroaches-really-survive-a-nuclear-apocalypse

Quote
But School of Population and Global Health Professor Tilman Ruff, a Nobel Laureate who studies the health and environmental consequences of nuclear explosions, says he has yet to see any documented evidence that there were cockroaches scuttling through the rubble.

“I’ve certainly seen photographs of injured people in Hiroshima that have lots of flies around, and you do imagine some insects would have survived,” Professor Ruff says. “But they still would have been affected, even if they appear more resistant than humans.”

Quote
“For a while they’ll be able to eat dead bodies and other decaying material but, if everything else has died, eventually there won’t be any food. And they’re not going to make much of a living,” Professor Elgar says.

Roaches big issue is that they're scavengers, not hunters or grazers. They can only exist as long as the supply of discarded food keeps up. So if the rats don't make it, well then the rat droppings were probably what the roaches were eating, so the roaches go too, then.

So far I haven't seen any evidence that cockroaches fare very well once humans are gone from an area.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on August 16, 2019, 11:37:21 am
If roaches really are going to be the survivors, they should be all over the Chernobyl exclusion zone.
Were there roaches there before the incident? I assume northern Ukraine is one of those colder areas.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on August 16, 2019, 12:19:24 pm
If roaches really are going to be the survivors, they should be all over the Chernobyl exclusion zone.
Were there roaches there before the incident? I assume northern Ukraine is one of those colder areas.


Oh I get how you could come to this misunderstanding... See, I misrepresented what he was going to say.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 16, 2019, 12:57:46 pm
So far I haven't seen any evidence that cockroaches fare very well once humans are gone from an area.

4500+ species say otherwise.  :P  It is quite clear that Elgar is talking about only one or two species of cockroaches.  Many others thrive without more than incidental contact with humans.

With Chernobyl it seems there is a wider phenomenon happening.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulation_of_cockroaches_in_post-Soviet_states (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulation_of_cockroaches_in_post-Soviet_states)  (Google must be censoring this since it is one of the top hits in Duck Duck Go for 'chernobyl cockroaches', unless you just failed to mention it.)

Whether cockroaches will inherit the earth is a separate question from the reason for them not doing so being their purported dependency on human civilisiation - just so as different parts of the conversation don't get confused.  Certainly the issue of a nuclear winter may stop them, if temperatures world-wide drop below the freezing threshold the majority of cockroaches are going to have a hard time.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 16, 2019, 01:57:13 pm
Quote
4500+ species say otherwise.

But only 6 of them have actually spread out. And as I said, when people talk about cockroaches taking over the world, they're not really talking about native bush cockroaches that live in rotting logs in the forest. Those ones are going to keep sitting there in their rotting logs nuclear war or no nuclear war.

People are talking about the few species of cockroaches that spread along with humans. The other ~4494 species aren't actually any good at colonizing human habitats. What nuclear war would do is leave the forest roaches pretty much unchanged (or around a lot less if the forests are destroyed), while destroying the main food source the city roach species survive on. We current have massive operations that harvest plant matter and bring it into the cities, the roaches live off the scraps from this process. If we go, so does the constant influx of bio-matter.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/tom/courses/bil160/bil160goods/16_rKselection.html
Also, the city roaches are r-selection strategists. When the big crunch happens, their population strategy will actually be a detriment, so you'd expect to see K-selection strategists taking over. One thought is that ants are more likely to take over rather than roaches. Ants live underground, which means they may have less radiation exposure. Ants are very efficient and currently we artificially keep ants out in a way we don't for roaches. So if there is excess food after a nuclear war then you'd expect to see a big growth in the number of ants, and thus less food for other species such as roaches.
 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 16, 2019, 02:18:28 pm
Quote
4500+ species say otherwise.

But only 6 of them have actually spread out. And as I said, when people talk about cockroaches taking over the world, they're not really talking about native bush cockroaches that live in rotting logs in the forest. Those ones are going to keep sitting there in their rotting logs nuclear war or no nuclear war.

People are talking about the few species of cockroaches that spread along with humans. The other ~4494 species aren't actually any good at colonizing human habitats. What nuclear war would do is leave the forest roaches pretty much unchanged (or around a lot less if the forests are destroyed), while destroying the main food source the city roach species survive on. We current have massive operations that harvest plant matter and bring it into the cities, the roaches live off the scraps from this process. If we go, so does the constant influx of bio-matter.

I don't think that any specific form of cockroach is invoked and could not find anything like this in the origin of the meme.  Just like when I talk of 'birds flying' it does not mean that they have to be pigeons or seagulls.  Now, it may be the case the when someone says birds flying I think of a dove and you think of a hawk but the saying itself does not invoke either.

Of those cockroaches that have spread with human civilisation only one can be said to be dependent on humans (whether for food supply or otherwise) since all the others still have wild populations that succesfully inhabit non-human environs.

Ha ha you have managed not one but two substantial edits while I was replying (or maybe more, can't be bothered checking).  Wish I had a record of those if only for humours sake.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 16, 2019, 02:23:31 pm
I'd argue that most people actually do mean the city cockroaches, for the simple reason that almost nobody knows there are 4500 species of cockroaches living in the forests. It's likely that substantially less than 1% of people on Earth have even heard about that.

 It doesn't come up, precisely because only a very small number of people know about those even existing. The vast majority of people only know about the common types of cockroaches, so when they make a statement about cockroaches, that's what they're referring to. They're referring to what's familiar, they're not making a statement where you go "well technically that also applies to all these other species you've never heard of, because scientists also happen to class them under the name cockroach".

There's a different between what a term "technically" means and what someone speaking that word is actually trying to say, or understands the phrase to mean. It's pretty likely that nobody who ever said "cockroaches are going to take over the world" specifically thought or even knew about the thousands of obscure related species that live in forests.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 16, 2019, 02:39:05 pm
I'd argue that most people actually do mean the city cockroaches, for the simple reason that almost nobody knows there are 4500 species of cockroaches living in the forests. It's likely that substantially less than 1% of people on Earth have even heard about that.

 It doesn't come up, precisely because only a very small number of people know about those even existing. The vast majority of people only know about the common types of cockroaches, so when they make a statement about cockroaches, that's what they're referring to. They're referring to what's familiar, they're not making a statement where you go "well technically that also applies to all these other species you've never heard of, because scientists also happen to class them under the name cockroach".

There's a different between what a term "technically" means and what someone speaking that word is actually trying to say, or understands the phrase to mean. It's pretty likely that nobody who ever said "cockroaches are going to take over the world" specifically thought or even knew about the thousands of obscure related species that live in forests.

Oh the hyperbolae!

All it needs for your argument to fail is for one person to think of American cockroaches rather than Gerrman cockroackes, no need for obscure cockroaches.

(And by the by there is something a bit more serious going on than 'scientists also happen to class them under the name cockroach' - that is there is an exercise of reason at work rather than an arbitrary rhetoric.)

[If someone knows how to search for the number of edits on a post I would truly be very curious.]
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on August 16, 2019, 03:27:55 pm
I know I wasn't aware of the majority of cockroaches and was thinking about the one usually used in movies, I believe it's from Madagascar
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on August 16, 2019, 08:44:35 pm
It's alarming that there is such an easy to accept brain bug that makes people assume apocalypses are likely and imminent when their own existence implies that they are obviously part of a chain of survivors extending back into deep time.

As for nuclear winter, I kinda figured it was a given for most people to know that it would require an extremely limited nuclear exchange nowadays, and the math of nuclear warfare doesn't really favor such things anymore. We had an example of their use back when literally nobody else was able to do so, but nowadays you'd need to get an extremely limited accidental launch with perfectly sane responses based on perfect information to prevent retaliation, and that isn't going to happen. Full scale exchanges these days aren't a matter of counting deaths, they're about considering the possibility of edge case survivors, like maybe folks in the ISS or a few subs would be able to be properly horrified at what we did to ourselves before dying off from radiation, resource exhaustion, taking their own lives or others, and ultimately even an edge case survivor wouldn't be able to rebuild a population before senescence kicks in.

There was a brief period in the 60's where you may have gotten something like fragmentary civilizations surviving, but we went so far past that point that despite literal decades of drawing down our stockpiles we're still totally fucked if they ever get used, so good news, if roaches did survive, nobody is going to notice!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 19, 2019, 04:25:16 am
I'd argue that most people actually do mean the city cockroaches, for the simple reason that almost nobody knows there are 4500 species of cockroaches living in the forests. It's likely that substantially less than 1% of people on Earth have even heard about that.

 It doesn't come up, precisely because only a very small number of people know about those even existing. The vast majority of people only know about the common types of cockroaches, so when they make a statement about cockroaches, that's what they're referring to. They're referring to what's familiar, they're not making a statement where you go "well technically that also applies to all these other species you've never heard of, because scientists also happen to class them under the name cockroach".

There's a different between what a term "technically" means and what someone speaking that word is actually trying to say, or understands the phrase to mean. It's pretty likely that nobody who ever said "cockroaches are going to take over the world" specifically thought or even knew about the thousands of obscure related species that live in forests.

Oh the hyperbolae!

All it needs for your argument to fail is for one person to think of American cockroaches rather than Gerrman cockroackes, no need for obscure cockroaches.

(And by the by there is something a bit more serious going on than 'scientists also happen to class them under the name cockroach' - that is there is an exercise of reason at work rather than an arbitrary rhetoric.)

[If someone knows how to search for the number of edits on a post I would truly be very curious.]

Huh, there are 6 widespread species of cockroaches associated with humans, and the American cockroach is one of them, that was already included. Here's an actual expert making the same general point:

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/would-cockroaches-really-survive-a-nuclear-apocalypse

Quote
Professor Elgar says the feral American and German species of cockroach – the ones you might recognise from your kitchen nooks and crannies – have given the rest of the species a bad rap.

Quote
“I think our view of cockroaches is informed by our frequent interaction with the American and German cockroaches, which have spread throughout the world,” Professor Elgar says. “Their habit of basically acting as an unpaid house cleaner horrifies people.”

when people think "cockroaches" they are in fact thinking about those familiar species. Normal people who say "cockroach" aren't in fact referring to all members of a certain genus, in the scientific sense.\

Quote
Cockroaches feed off the detritus of other living organisms, however; so Professor Elgar questions whether they would be able to thrive without humans and other animals.

Tell this guy he's wrong.

Quote
“For a while they’ll be able to eat dead bodies and other decaying material but, if everything else has died, eventually there won’t be any food. And they’re not going to make much of a living,” Professor Elgar says.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on August 19, 2019, 09:45:59 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You are missing the argument again.  Yes American cockroaches thrive as a pest cohabiting with humans.  But they are not dependent on us (as a species) since there are viable populations in the wild.  Or to quote myself, from the post previous to the one you cite:
Quote
Of those cockroaches that have spread with human civilisation only one can be said to be dependent on humans (whether for food supply or otherwise) since all the others still have wild populations that succesfully inhabit non-human environs.
To be specific, the german cockroach is the 'dependent' one and is largely thought unable to survive independent of human habitation.

Actually there is not much to tell the guy he is wrong about.  Sure the common conception of cockroaches as a whole has been shaped by their frequent encounter as a pest but this is a transfer of attributes not a subsumption under a particular type.  It's similar to us thinking that all birds fly because we frequently see ones that do - that is how 'our view is informed' so that cockroaches have 'a bad rap'.

Nor is the proposition that certain species would not 'thrive' without human habitation questionable; it's a page or two back but I said as much:
Quote
Even in the case of urban cockroaches I suspect that they are not 'dependent' on the urban environment but merely thrive under those conditions
Indeed, putting it this way implies that the species will survive to an extent without humans.

But the final quote is hilarious - in terms of your argument -
If 'everything else has died' then the cockroaches have inherited the earth.

Not sure why I would want to tell this guy he is wrong.  ;D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 21, 2019, 11:02:29 pm
https://amonitoring.ru/article/onemore_steam_eop_0day/

New steam 0day.

Also, steam issued fix not very good. Not sure if my acl fully fixes or not.

I will look more into filesys perms for new vuln. Give a bit.

OK, if I am reading the exploit overview properly, there is poor security on the bin folder inside steam's install location.  This allows an attacker to rename the bin folder, then create a symlink to a location that they control, and give a malicious substitution for steamclient.dll

That dll gets executed with elevated privs, so this gives a way in for a would-be attacker.


Since the exploit involves the creation of a symlink, (either directly to the steamclient.dll, or to the bin folder that contains it), a filesystem ACL should fix it.


....  YEEUP.  Looks like Valve does not understand that full control priv does not belong on limited user in programfiles folders...  Give me a bit to experiment with suitable locked down privs.



OK, Steam client seems perfectly fine with removing write, modify, delete, modify ACL, and take ownership permissions from limited user on the bin folder and contents. Not sure why Valve granted them in the first place.


more edit

Steam client is bitchy about the steam folder being writable. I can still (somehow) rename the bin folder even after setting an ACL that should prevent it. I am investigating further.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 22, 2019, 03:26:01 am
*sigh*

I have spent quite a bit of time trying to get steam to play nice here.  It wont. If you revoke certain permissions, it thinks it needs to do an update and then fails. If you enable those permissions but disable others, it asserts it cant run for various reasons.

Valve just doesn't grok "limited user." 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Magistrum on August 29, 2019, 06:04:33 pm
The 100day patch will be good. Maybe.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on August 30, 2019, 08:05:19 am
*sigh*

I have spent quite a bit of time trying to get steam to play nice here.  It wont. If you revoke certain permissions, it thinks it needs to do an update and then fails. If you enable those permissions but disable others, it asserts it cant run for various reasons.

Valve just doesn't grok "limited user."

It's sounding like it's as much smug incompetence as malice. They're Valve, so it's probably a bit of both, but still.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 16, 2019, 08:15:58 am
https://science.slashdot.org/story/19/10/15/1737202/in-new-headache-wework-says-it-found-cancer-causing-chemical-in-its-phone-booths

Quote
Cash-strapped WeWork, the office-sharing company that is trying to negotiate a financial lifeline, has a new problem that may prove costly. From a report:

It has closed about 2,300 phone booths at some of its 223 sites in the United States and Canada after it says it discovered elevated levels of formaldehyde. The company, which abandoned plans for an initial public offering last month after investors questioned its mounting losses and the way it was being run, said in an email to its tenants on Monday that the chemical could pose a cancer-risk if there is long-term exposure.

Bloomberg columnist Matt Levine quips:

"I don't understand what is happening here. Did WeWork founder Adam Neumann disturb a mummy and trigger an ancient curse? Was a WeWork built on a haunted graveyard, unleashing powerful dark energies and also elevated levels of formaldehyde? How do you have such a relentless parade of negative financial news and then find out that your phone booths cause cancer? 'Our phone booths might cause cancer' was not an IPO risk factor. Nobody had 'phone booths cause cancer' on their WeWork Disaster Bingo cards."

There have been other studies suggesting open-plan offices in general are a bad idea. It's no real surprise that a start-up entirely dedicated to cramming people into open-plan offices with random people is having problems. Something like cancer phone booths is just a nail in this particular coffin.

Now, you too can pay too much to get too little work done with too many distractions, while also getting cancer from the conveniently places poison dispensers, which double as the oh-so-useful landline payphones.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 16, 2019, 08:28:00 am
The whole "Open floor plan" in offices thing, as I perceive it anyway-- is just upper management seeking justification-- any justification at all-- for their belief that if they cannot see somebody working, they are not being productive.

They WANT to stand up, look out the window of THEIR cozy corner office (with blinds and shades), and see all their underlings toiling away. If there are cubicle walls there, they can't do that. Why-- those ingrates! They might be in there texting or who knows what behind that cube wall!

Nevermind that when people cannot effectively own a space, they cannot effectively concentrate on a project.  Also nevermind that occasional bits of unproductive activity often enable a greater degree of overall productivity.  Those little facts are not important.  Biases are at stake here.

/opinion (also /irony)

WeWork's business plan was to exploit this bias, to get businesses to jump on the notion that "These people are super productive-- open floor plans everywhere! No room for misfits in that kind of setting! Herpa-derpa!"

Nevermind that the people trying to work there couldn't get a damn thing done with the raging cacophony of the Borg Collective raging all around them.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: thompson on October 17, 2019, 06:19:26 am
I'm going to be a little more severe: WeWork was never anything more than a scam. A business without a business model where the only goal was to tell wonderful tales of the future to entice investors, who in turn also knew it was all crap but went along with it anyway because they thought they could palm it off to the next sucker in line. Well, Softbank got burned, and deserved it for their greed and stupidity.

There's probably also an element of "sunken cost fallacy" where investors keep throwing money into profitless ventures that sounded good on paper (Uber) but never had a sustainable business plan (flouting regulation to undercut competitors: it worked until the regulators caught up). There will be a big reckoning one day once people decide to stop throwing good money after bad.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on October 17, 2019, 07:53:16 am
Isn't WeWork also the one where the owner bought property using WeWork's money, then rented that property back to WeWork?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 17, 2019, 08:02:48 am
Other that phone-booth cancer, the other news is that that guy was forced out of the company on Sept 26 this year. The valuation of the company was estimated at $47 billion in January, but that's down to $10 billion now. So this thing really is still imploding quickly. I'm sure the founders are well and truly rich as fuck now though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on October 17, 2019, 08:07:31 am
Okay, does anybody else want a gritty post-apocalyptic survival story about a family of Cockroaches trying to survive after humanity wiped itself out in nuclear winter?

Anybody? No? Just me then...
I actually think this would be cool
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 17, 2019, 11:49:27 am
Isn't WeWork also the one where the owner bought property using WeWork's money, then rented that property back to WeWork?
No, no: the owner registered the name "We", and then forced WeWork to rename itself to We under a licensing agreement with him over the name that he just registered.
It's both, actually.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on October 17, 2019, 12:12:17 pm
As a programmer, I actually prefer open plan offices. Much easier to get up and talk to the person you need to talk to, and cooperate as a team, instead of being trapped in a prison cubicle. And much easier for people to talk to you when they need to. And much easier for other people to listen and drop in if they hear something that warrants it. They fit the 'agile' mentality quite well in that regard.

I've seen the sectioned cubicle mentality devolve into people feeling the need to book a meeting just to ask a 5 minute question or get help on a problem you know someone else has already encountered. Which to me suggests something has gone horribly horribly wrong.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on October 17, 2019, 12:38:34 pm
As a programmer...talk to the person

We all know that's not true. That's like telling me you saw an engineer who looks up.


Isn't WeWork also the one where the owner bought property using WeWork's money, then rented that property back to WeWork?
No, no: the owner registered the name "We", and then forced WeWork to rename itself to We under a licensing agreement with him over the name that he just registered.
It's both, actually.

I think he also managed Silicon Valley Tech start-up VC money by claiming to be a tech company, even though they aren't. He's like the new Elizabeth Holmes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MorleyDev on October 17, 2019, 12:54:58 pm
People over processes and all that :) Can't fix a problem without knowing what the problem is, and can't provide a fitting solution without checking the solution fits.

Plus I'd rather talk face-to-face than email, half the conversation is missing when you can't convey tone easily. All it takes then to insult someone is to forget a smileyface (which I am of the opinion serves an effective purpose as a tonality marker so is entirely reasonable in work correspondence). And I'd definitely rather do either of those than use a phone and, ugh, call someone. Always hated calling people.

It does somewhat come down to culture from higher-ups. Where I've worked managers have understood that you occassionally take a break or go off on a web tangent rabbithole, so haven't been draconionly enforcing "eyes on screen, hand on keyboard" type nonsense.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 19, 2019, 08:12:12 pm
In other news

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/19/10/18/2345209/air-force-finally-retires-8-inch-floppies-from-missile-launch-control-system

The Air Force finally retired 8-inch floppy disks from their launch systems. They're still using the same 1970s-era computers but they now have SSDs attached to them, probably emulating the floppy interface. I wouldn't be surprised however if this was using similar tech to what they use to attach USB drives to retro gaming computers where you're able to manually select disk images to load.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on October 19, 2019, 08:14:58 pm
What? How have they not upgraded their technology until now? what is all of the money used for if not to update their computers so that they run fast enough to get data? I understand the Air Force doesn't only deal with computers, but an updated computer would be easier to get data on your planes with than an older one, yes?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on October 19, 2019, 08:59:12 pm
What? How have they not upgraded their technology until now? what is all of the money used for if not to update their computers so that they run fast enough to get data? I understand the Air Force doesn't only deal with computers, but an updated computer would be easier to get data on your planes with than an older one, yes?

These are ICBM launch sites, so they aren't actually carrying them on planes (and so mass isn't an issue.) Nuclear security is, which is one reason to leave the system alone: every new part is a potential security vulnerability or failure point, so there's a good reason not to update to a newer computer to do the same task.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 19, 2019, 09:41:00 pm
What? How have they not upgraded their technology until now? what is all of the money used for if not to update their computers so that they run fast enough to get data? I understand the Air Force doesn't only deal with computers, but an updated computer would be easier to get data on your planes with than an older one, yes?

These are the nuclear launch computers. If they updated them all the time, they risk introducing bugs. i.e. accidentally launching some nukes, or introducing backdoors for hackers. Just be glad they're not updating them every time there's a new Windows operating system, or running Windows Update on them in general, heh.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on October 19, 2019, 10:45:00 pm
Ah. I thought updates were always good.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 20, 2019, 12:24:00 am
There's a very old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

It's pretty common that the "new and improved" version of something is worse than the old version. Just in case you wonder why people buy the new version, it's because they stopped making the old version.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on October 20, 2019, 12:56:32 am
Huh
I thought that updates would fix things or add security. I have heard the if it ain’t broke don’t fix it before, I thought updates wouldn’t be done unless needed, I was wrong
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 20, 2019, 01:24:19 am
The UX/UI developers have to justify their existences.  Once something is "good", they are no longer needed as heavily.  This weighs on their minds, and they feel the need to redevelop the wheel every year.

This causes user confusion as things move around without warning or rational explanation. It causes new bugs to enter the software. It causes new dependencies that break things.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on October 20, 2019, 01:33:19 am
There's also the matter of how the military adaptation cycle moves considerably slower than the software development cycle. The series of tests, checks and paperwork required to implement something new take years to complete, so if they were in the business of trying to outpace security threats with new defenses, they'd be hopelessly and utterly behind the curve.


When I was in the Norwegian military, there was a great big undertaking with converting all standardized military computers (a task enviable by absolutely no one) over to the newly-approved updated operating system, which had just finished going through all the rigorous testing required to qualify it for use.

The new OS was Windows XP. This was in 2011.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 20, 2019, 02:22:46 am
Huh
I thought that updates would fix things or add security. I have heard the if it ain’t broke don’t fix it before, I thought updates wouldn’t be done unless needed, I was wrong

That's the reason they're still using the same gear. It already works. If they bought new gear they couldn't be sure it works, and it doesn't actually do anything that they actually need. For example, if you need to hammer in nails then you use a hammer whose design hasn't changed in probably 150 years. You don't need to buy the latest hammer each few years.

Also a 1970s computer is much simpler and has much less code in it, there's just less that can go wrong and it's easier to prove that it's secure.

Look up attacks such as Meltdown, Spectre and Rowhammer. These are specific attacks that only work on new processors or on recent memory chips, due to changes in processor design
https://meltdownattack.com/
Meltdown for example was first fully disclosed in 2018, and is a vulnerability in roughly the last 20 years worth of CPUs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meltdown_(security_vulnerability)#Overview

Rowhammer is a memory-hacking technique, which only works on newer memory modules, because there's less physical space between the components, so more signal bleeds over between them, and you can steal data this way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_hammer

So, bugs creep in and may open up security holes and it may be decades before they're fully documented. If the Air Force had upgraded their gear with new CPUs from any time between ~1998 to 2018 the nuclear computers would have had the Meltdown vulnerability.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on October 20, 2019, 02:40:21 am
Huh
I thought that updates would fix things or add security. I have heard the if it ain’t broke don’t fix it before, I thought updates wouldn’t be done unless needed, I was wrong

That's the reason they're still using the same gear. It already works. If they bought new gear they couldn't be sure it works, and it doesn't actually do anything that they actually need. For example, if you need to hammer in nails then you use a hammer whose design hasn't changed in probably 150 years. You don't need to buy the latest hammer each few years.

Also a 1970s computer is much simpler and has much less code in it, there's just less that can go wrong and it's easier to prove that it's secure.

Look up attacks such as Meltdown, Spectre and Rowhammer. These are specific attacks that only work on new processors or on recent memory chips, due to changes in processor design
https://meltdownattack.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_hammer

Meltdown for example was first fully disclosed in 2018, and is a vulnerability in roughly the last 20 years worth of CPUs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meltdown_(security_vulnerability)#Overview

So, bugs creep in and may open up security holes and it may be decades before they're fully documented. If the Air Force had upgraded their gear with new CPUs from any time between ~1998 to 2018 the nuclear computers would have had the Meltdown vulnerability.
Thank you for the information.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on October 21, 2019, 08:21:53 am
These are the nuclear launch computers. If they updated them all the time, they risk introducing bugs. i.e. accidentally launching some nukes, or introducing backdoors for hackers. Just be glad they're not updating them every time there's a new Windows operating system, or running Windows Update on them in general, heh.

"I see you're trying to end the world. Would you like help?"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 21, 2019, 08:28:33 am
"Because our presidents have been getting less and less presidential with each passing decade (with increasing levels of forgetfulness), we have finally decided that the nuclear launch codes can be reset to a system default value using an easy button press combination at power on. While the missiles will not launch with the default codes, one can then set the codes to anything they like, THEN launch. There is a 30 minute safety window after which the new codes become valid. We expect no problems with this arrangement."

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 21, 2019, 08:38:44 am
Uh. Reality is ahead of your joke. The actual launch codes were 00000000. For real.

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/12/for-20-years-the-nuclear-launch-code-at-us-minuteman-silos-was-00000000/

Quote
"Our launch checklist in fact instructed us, the firing crew, to double-check the locking panel in our underground launch bunker to ensure that no digits other than zero had been inadvertently dialed into the panel."

This ensured that there was no need to wait for Presidential confirmation that would have just wasted valuable Russian nuking time.

Yeah, so the supposed presidential unlock codes were just a fiction in practice. They pre-dialled all zeros (the actual combinations) into all the missile unlock systems at all times. They probably gave the president a briefcase full of fake numbers to make him feel like he was needed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 21, 2019, 09:34:12 am
LOL. Awesome.

To counter useless numbers, here's a recent paper that I am nowhere near qualified to even make sense of, let alone critique--- but it makes a very fascinating claim.

Numbers may be multiplied with time O(n log n).

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02070778/document
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 21, 2019, 10:01:12 am
Yeah, I came across that on Slashdot. The important fact is that the new algorithm is only better than existing algorithms for very long numbers. How long?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_algorithm

Quote
An example of a galactic algorithm is the fastest known way to multiply two numbers, which is based on a 1729-dimensional Fourier transform. This means it will not reach its stated efficiency until the numbers have at least 2^1729 digits, which is vastly larger than the number of atoms in the known universe. So this algorithm is never used in practice.

The link is to the Harvey algorithm mentioned in your document. It hits O(n log n) efficiency once you exceed 21729 digits in length. There's another existing algorithm that's more efficient for "shorter" numbers, but nobody yet knows the exact point at which the new algorithm becomes more efficient than that:

Quote
"The question is, how deep does n have to be for this algorithm to actually be faster than the previous algorithms?" the assistant professor says in the video. "The answer is we don't know.

"It could be billions of digits. It could be trillions. It could be much bigger than that. We really have no idea at this point."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Zangi on October 22, 2019, 12:39:00 pm
So... Murrican 5G.  Is it just a half-arsed cash-in/'look at us, we can do 5G like the Chinese too!(but not really)' kinda thing?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on October 22, 2019, 01:03:41 pm
From what I understand nobody has even codified what 5G is yet, despite lots of people claiming to support it or be actively working on it.  Kind of a head scratcher for me.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: scourge728 on October 22, 2019, 05:34:23 pm
We just need bigger and more powerful emitters, shove more signal so some can force its way through or something  :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on October 22, 2019, 05:37:27 pm
We just need bigger and more powerful emitters, shove more signal so some can force its way through or something  :P
You're right. But we should also use the highest frequency possible to maximize benefits, so I'm thinking we should use a nuclear x-ray laser for the most powerful and highest frequency information transfer.

It is completely flawless and absolutely guaranteed to transmit one important piece of information in a split second. Of course, the only piece of information it transmits is "DIE!" but hey, it's extremely effective at transmitting that information at very high bandwidth and nearly unlimited fidelity to the original message!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on October 22, 2019, 05:45:25 pm
We just need bigger and more powerful emitters, shove more signal so some can force its way through or something  :P
You're right. But we should also use the highest frequency possible to maximize benefits, so I'm thinking we should use a nuclear x-ray laser for the most powerful and highest frequency information transfer.

It is completely flawless and absolutely guaranteed to transmit one important piece of information in a split second. Of course, the only piece of information it transmits is "DIE!" but hey, it's extremely effective at transmitting that information at very high bandwidth and nearly unlimited fidelity to the original message!
Is it bad that I laughed as I read this?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on October 22, 2019, 05:48:09 pm
...it was a joke, so I'm going to say "no, that was the intended effect".


I in no way condone the use of nuclear weapons as information transmission y'know, probably, maybe it'll have a use. Like, one nuke from Mars if the coffee machine is running low, two if everyone has just died to rapid decompression?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 25, 2019, 07:39:59 am
Either the search function is broken or wow I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet:

Tesla Cybertruck.

Needs less cyber, more truck.

Seriously, why would you not just simply put the EV powertrain in a "standard" truck?  All the towing and torque capability didn't need to come with hype, touchscreens, never-finished software, and exotic form factor.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 25, 2019, 07:53:46 am
You could really feel at home in a Cybertruck, in Spacehunter: Adventures in the Forbidden Zone from 1983.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacehunter:_Adventures_in_the_Forbidden_Zone
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 25, 2019, 08:01:21 am
Here I was thinking the cybertruck was "Knight Rider meets Robocop; A new product from Omni Consumer Products!"  where "Totally not KITT" is not quite fully operational yet, and the same designer that designed ED209 got hired to do the work, after his contract on the set of Buck Rogers in the 25th Century expired.

See for instance, this strangely similarly designed toy from that period.

(http://lghttp.18520.nexcesscdn.net/80902D/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/u/buck_rogers_land_rover_mib_unused_c-9.5-_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 25, 2019, 08:04:43 am
the unpainted steel and hard corners with no curves definitely makes it look more like a movie prop than a real car. It's inspired by sci-fi movies, but in the sense that sci-fi movies have ridiculous props built by people who don't know how to design the real thing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 25, 2019, 08:08:42 am
I will laugh hysterically if somebody puts treads and a faux top mount laser emitter on their Tesla Truck.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on November 25, 2019, 08:21:13 am
Found a picture of the real cyber truck. I’ve never seen a vehicle with so many sharp angles
(http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.extremetech.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F11%2FCybertruck-4-640x354.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.extremetech.com%2Fextreme%2F302489-tesla-unveils-cybertruck-f-150&docid=UdhhNgK3_uLNuM&tbnid=x6BoHgjQDairxM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj6_NKouYXmAhUQGKwKHRGDCocQMwhPKAcwBw..i&w=640&h=354&hl=en-us&safe=strict&client=safari&bih=705&biw=1112&q=tesla%20cybertruck&ved=0ahUKEwj6_NKouYXmAhUQGKwKHRGDCocQMwhPKAcwBw&iact=mrc&uact=8)
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwizxtTmuYXmAhWUFzQIHaYkB8oQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiatoday.in%2Fauto%2Flatest-auto-news%2Fstory%2Ftesla-cybertruck-bags-187000-lakh-orders-check-out-the-details-1622308-2019-11-25&psig=AOvVaw2KVt4g5P1fQPNCJ5RH8UwV&ust=1574774236202380)
How do I tell google to give pictures smaller than Medium but bigger than Icons?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 25, 2019, 08:26:58 am
Images will scale automagically if you use the 'width=somenumberinpixels' argument with it.

eg,

(img width=500)http://somesite.com/somepath/someimage.jpg(/img) 

would scale the image down to 500 pixels wide.

To tell Google to search for a specific sized image, go do an "advanced" search.   (https://www.google.com/advanced_image_search?q=Tesla+Truck&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNSw0O1t8-HxWANBjuXLd8IzGwxAvA:1574687862170&biw=1920&bih=944&tbm=isch&hl=en)

(not sure if that URL will work, looks like it contains a session ID in it...)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on November 25, 2019, 08:27:43 am
Thanks. I will edit the post so the images fit
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on November 25, 2019, 08:32:23 am
HTTPS strikes again.


Here's a DIFFERENT image... I think the source will allow normal HTTP.

(http://the-drive-2.imgix.net/https%3A%2F%2Fs3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com%2Fthe-drive-cms-content-staging%2Fmessage-editor%252F1574398557482-teslatruck8.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&ixlib=js-1.4.1&s=5dc6d584c7c52af67dee28df4b4680fe)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on November 25, 2019, 12:05:11 pm
$40k for a shitty-looking El Camino that has windows you can break with a thrown ball bearing? Sign me up. [/s]
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on November 25, 2019, 05:22:07 pm
I will laugh hysterically if somebody puts treads and a faux top mount laser emitter on their Tesla Truck.
Or a real laser.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 04, 2019, 05:35:20 am
Well I've heard it all now j/k

https://mobile.slashdot.org/story/19/12/03/2325235/brother-of-drug-lord-pablo-escobar-launches-unbreakable-foldable-smartphone

Quote
Roberto Escobar, brother of the late drug lord Pablo Escobar, has announced a foldable smartphone that is "very difficult to break" thanks to the screen's "special type of plastic." The Escobar Fold 1, as it is called, significantly undercuts Samsung's Galaxy Fold and Huawei Mate X with a price of only $349.

While driving in your sci-fi Cybertruck you can be using a budget foldable tablet made by a drug lord's brother. Truly we are in the Blade Runner universe.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on December 04, 2019, 05:53:25 am
According to the original source, the specs are (for now) top-of-the-line. If this is legit, then he's basically applying the OnePlus strategy to foldable phones; sell at impossibly low prices, sell directly and at this point I'm expecting it to sell based on an invitation system too.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on December 04, 2019, 06:01:36 am
the classic strategy of selling at a loss, but making up in volume?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on December 04, 2019, 06:07:17 am
Sounds about right. That or it's being combined with an exaggerated version of the Xiaomi strategy as well; plaster ads all over the phone's interface to make up for losses in ad revenue.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 04, 2019, 09:19:17 am
Hey, some good news for a change. Plex is launching their own movie streaming service, with a lot of content they've secured region-free rights to, and it's ad supported so you don't need a subscription. You need the Plex software however.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/12/04/plex-launches-a-free-ad-supported-streaming-service-in-over-200-countries/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on December 04, 2019, 08:17:52 pm
Good news? 

As far as I am concerned it is just more of the never-ending commercial stupidity (stupidity of commerce/stupidity of commericals - "it's the stupid economy"  ;) ).  Much better things to do with my life than spend a significant part of it reading advertisements... or supporting content producers of the 'stupid' kind.

But each to their own...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 05, 2019, 04:27:23 am
it's good news because it's another place you can legally get content without a subscription for a whole monthly package. Worst news ever would be them launching yet another subscription service. Enough rival free services might put some of those subscription services out of business sooner. The alternative is a world entirely consisting of walled gardens where you need to subscribe to all of them to get the few bits of content you want from each of them. Ad-based sites have no walls.

As for "stupid" how do you expect a service to afford to keep operating without income? I'd prefer ads on just the content I choose to watch vs having to pay a monthly fee for content I don't even want. Ads are also better feedback, since they only make money off things people actually want to watch, rather than stealing some of your subscription money to produce content you may object to.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on December 05, 2019, 01:45:48 pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50667553 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50667553)

Is Elon Musk ever not terrible?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on December 05, 2019, 03:30:41 pm
Holy cow Windows 10 has terrible multi-monitor scaling.  I tried to connect my laptop to my TV, and Windows scaling is just... nonsensical.

Moving a window from one screen to the other scales the text but the not the window dimensions to match - why doesn't it keep the relative aspect ratio the same?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on December 05, 2019, 04:01:43 pm
-
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on December 05, 2019, 04:59:13 pm
I've honestly never seen that.  DPI differences are what I'd suspect, but I wouldn't expect that to cause text to change independently of other GUI elements.  Do you have text scaling set to something other than 100%?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50667553 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50667553)

Is Elon Musk ever not terrible?

Wow, this is just now going to court?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 07, 2019, 04:52:49 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQddtTdmG_8

Thought I'd share this. It's about making language vectors with neural networks, and how a very simple model leads to some surprisingly cool features.

You start with a vector say 10,000 units long. Each input represents a unique word. You feed it through an NN with a row with 300 units, and the output is also 10,000 units long, and represents the probability of any other word being near the input word. You then train it long enough and on enough language data that it accurately models the language (in a statistical sense).

The real trick here is that your 10000 words are being funneled through a layer only 300 units wide. So those 300 values (a 300 unit long vector) must be compressing down all the information. You can then extract the 300 hidden layer values for any specific word, and do "concept calculus" with them.

And remember, all this is from unsupervised learning from raw language data:

For example, if you take the vector for "king" then subtract the vector for "man" and add the vector for "woman" then you get the vector for "queen". If you take the vector for "London" subtract "England" and add "Japan" you get "Tokyo". take "bark" subtract "dog" and add "cat", you get "miaowing". Also from the data set, take "shirt" subtract "man" and add "woman" and you get "blouse". So the hidden layer cells are clearly encoding a whole bunch of meaningful relationships from the real world in them, at least as far as our encoding of the world in language goes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 07, 2019, 11:56:52 am
I am not a coder, but a word with multiple meanings like row with the following meanings for nouns and verbs
Verb in present tense has ing at the end of it. EG. learn(ing)
The past tense has Ed at the end. EG. learn(ed)
Future tense has will before the word. EG. (Will) learn.
You will learn new things. You learned some things before. You are learning now.
Row1=(noun)
1a: a number of people or things in a more or less straight line.

1b: a line of seats in a theater.

1c: a street with a continuous line of houses along one or both of its sides, especially when specifying houses of a particular type or function.

1d: a horizontal line of entries in a table.

1e: a complete line of stitches in knitting or crochet.

1f: a period of rowing.

Row2
2a: propel (a boat) with oars

2b: travel by propelling a boat with oars

2c: convey (a passenger) in a boat by propelling it with oars

2d: engage in the sport of rowing, especially competitively.

So each of the numbers and letters correspond to meaning. Example:

A row1a of chairs are on a boat. The driver of the boat is row2aing across the river.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 07, 2019, 12:23:15 pm
What would a network that did something like my previous post be called? Could it even work?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on December 07, 2019, 08:38:45 pm
Indeed, word vectors are rather fun and useful tools. I say this having worked with them myself. However, there are a few notable drawbacks:

  • There is considerable conflation of multiple meanings of a word within a single vector. All of their usages are bottled up into one vector, which can cause problems when trying to use these vectors together to extract the meaning of a sentence. Furthermore, there's no means to suss out the specific meanings of a given word- you have that single vector with them all bottled up in there, and no particularly useful way of extracting the individual meanings that compose it.

A good point and I'm going to focus in on this one rather than write a long post discussing all the details. (mind you I haven't read all the intervening posts here so sorry if I've repeated anything).

One thing that comes to mind to solve or at least heavily mitigate this particular drawback is to do something similar, but you'd need humans to come along and tag every individual word in a training set according to it's actual semantic meaning. There could be multiple meanings per word, but synonyms could actually be condensed down so the total number of words being converted to wouldn't necessarily be a lot larger. The drawback here of course is that you'd need to have enough properly labeled training data. But after that, you could get the algorithm to read raw text, and it could do an semantics-inferring first pass before putting it through the same unsupervised vectorizing algorithm and get much better results.

Another possibility however that wouldn't need manually labeling of all words is to divide nearby-words into sets. i.e. you can design an algorithm to work out if certain sets of words appear near dog, but not near each other. This would strongly imply that the two uses of "dog" were different semantically. So you can group different usages of "dog" based on sets of nearby words in the input data, then treat them as different inputs.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 18, 2020, 08:54:18 am
https://news.slashdot.org/story/20/02/12/1628214/this-app-automatically-cancels-and-sues-robocallers

Quote
DoNotPay Founder and CEO Joshua Browder's Robo Revenge app is unique from every other app looking to protect you from robocalls in that it can get you cash while stopping them completely. "All of the big companies like AT&T and Apple have failed to protect consumers," Browder told Motherboard over the phone. "Consumers have to protect themselves. The only way the problem will end is if the robocallers start losing money every time they call someone."

In the past, DoNot Pay has offered various apps to help consumers fight back. DoNotPay's Free Trial Card creates a virtual, one-time-use credit card to protect you from getting charged by "industrialized scams" like free trials. DoNotPay's original offering was a chatbot lawyer program that automatically disputed parking tickets in small claims court. Robo Revenge combines both features to automatically add you to the Do Not Call Registry, generate a virtual DoNotPay burner credit card to provide scammers when they illegally call you anyways, use the transaction information to get the scammer's contact information, then walk you through how to sue them for as much as $3,000 per call under the Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA), a law already on the books meant to protect consumers from calls that violate the Do Not Call Registry. The app also streamlines the litigation paperwork by automatically generating demand letters and court filing documents.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on February 18, 2020, 09:49:59 am
That's pretty great.  I wonder if something similar applies for unsolicited text messages, since I've been getting a lot of spam from those lately, and the messaging app on my Android phone appears to have no way to block text messages from people not on my contact list.

It would probably be easier to just find a new app that did that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on February 18, 2020, 11:21:31 am
It would be great if there was some sort of government group protecting consumers of phone utilities from scams that wasn't so full of regulatory capture that it's run by someone who spent his whole life working for the people who profit from these scams.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Folly on February 25, 2020, 06:58:41 pm
Scientists at CERN found a way to trap hydrogen’s mirror twin, antihydrogen, long enough to study it in greater detail than ever before. (https://www.wired.com/story/physicists-take-their-closest-look-yet-at-an-antimatter-atom/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)

I'm optimistic that this will either give us flying cars, or the Reverse Flash.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on February 25, 2020, 07:55:20 pm
I'm at least hopeful it will let us find some discrepancies with the behavior of antimatter so that we can help fill in the holes in our understanding.  Maybe including finding explanations for the matter/antimatter imbalance.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 25, 2020, 09:49:52 pm
Wonder if they did the drop test yet. Naturally I expect it to fall down but it would be terrifyingly exciting if it doesn't.

Exciting because hey, antigravity tech that might explode, fun!
Terrifying because wait, if that is possible, shouldn't interstellar flight be much more feasible, and if so where is everyone else?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on February 25, 2020, 09:55:25 pm
So far as I know, antimatter is not expected to fall up. It would be very hard to use for anything, though, because electromagnetic effects are very difficult, if not outright impossible, to use to make a perfect container that wouldn't leak the most volatile material it is physically possible to create, let alone one capable of responding to a "push" from the contained material, and anything other than electromagnetic means can't really contain antimatter because, y'know, "boom".

If it did fall up that would break some models of physics, for sure. Like, I dunno, the Standard Model, which would actually be really helpful since we've been thinking the Standard Model is wrong somewhere for a long time.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 25, 2020, 11:33:55 pm
As far as I know, theory suggests that antimatter will interract with the Higgs field identically to normal matter.

Where it differs is either the strong or weak force. (honestly, I forget which one).  This is already documented, and was how positrons were first detected. There is a natural asymmetry there between the two.

*edit, looked it up, it's weak force.

They want to test falling up for completeness, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2020, 05:10:19 am
There's a new fusion start-up company that's spun off Australia's University of New South Wales and has patents on a new method for hot fusion

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a31080902/fusion-energy-hydrogen-boron/

From what I understand from reading a couple of articles on this, they're using lasers but instead of heating up a mixture with sustained lasers and trying to get it to 100 million degrees for fusion to start occurring naturally between dueterium atoms, what they do is blast some hydrogen with short pulses from a type of laser that won a Nobel Prize in 2018, called a Chirped Pulse Laser. This is supposed to accelerate the hydrogen atoms through a boron target at very fast speeds, and what they claim to get on the other side is helium, but with a shortage of electrons (since Proton+Electron = Neutron). Since the helium is charged you can create a voltage difference directly for power instead of needing to heat up water for a steam generator.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on February 26, 2020, 09:26:46 am
Maybe including finding explanations for the matter/antimatter imbalance.

Matter's whole thing is "being there most of the time." Antimatter is the opposite of matter. Therefore, antimatter's whole thing is "not being there most of the time."


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on February 26, 2020, 09:38:19 am
There's a new fusion start-up company that's spun off Australia's University of New South Wales and has patents on a new method for hot fusion

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a31080902/fusion-energy-hydrogen-boron/

From what I understand from reading a couple of articles on this, they're using lasers but instead of heating up a mixture with sustained lasers and trying to get it to 100 million degrees for fusion to start occurring naturally between dueterium atoms, what they do is blast some hydrogen with short pulses from a type of laser that won a Nobel Prize in 2018, called a Chirped Pulse Laser. This is supposed to accelerate the hydrogen atoms through a boron target at very fast speeds, and what they claim to get on the other side is helium, but with a shortage of electrons (since Proton+Electron = Neutron). Since the helium is charged you can create a voltage difference directly for power instead of needing to heat up water for a steam generator.

That sounds really neat but they WILL still use a heat - > electricity conversion of SOME kind, almost certainly a steam generator unless they're also going to pull a super effective thermocouple-based system or whatever out of their back pockets.

If you don't use the heat generated by fusion, you're kind of wasting most of the energy even IF the products are charged.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on February 27, 2020, 10:27:53 am
Right, you'll want to get all of the possible power out of it, and I'm curious how they'll build a heat exchanger for such a design.

It's a cool idea though, and I hope it goes somewhere.  Fusion is so rife with promises of useful power in the next X decades so it would be nice for one of those claims to come true sometime soon.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on February 27, 2020, 10:33:06 am
Right, you'll want to get all of the possible power out of it, and I'm curious how they'll build a heat exchanger for such a design.

It's a cool idea though, and I hope it goes somewhere.  Fusion is so rife with promises of useful power in the next X decades so it would be nice for one of those claims to come true sometime soon.

We'd better hurry so we can power our jetpacks, flying cars, and clonal meat factories (for the people who don't want all of their nutrition in a pill form).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 28, 2020, 05:41:10 am
Thermocouple seems silly to me.

That is a fusion plasma, it is going to glow very brightly, and be spraying out charged energetic particles.  Coating the inside of the tokamak with a scintillating material, then a high efficiency photovoltaic seems more efficient, as it keeps the heat in the system to help sustain the plasma, and collects energy from the emissions instead.

*shrug*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on February 28, 2020, 09:47:41 am
I guess it depends on what waste products the fusion process makes, but it does sound like the intended reactions are aneutronic so if most of the products are charged particles it might be possible to capture most of the energy directly.

Speaking of tokamaks though, this wasn't based on the tokamak, was it?  Much like other laser based fusion ideas, I'm not really sure how you build a reactor that's well contained, allows you to extract energy from the process and also allows you to introduce fuel.  Presumably the boron is used up by the process so it'll have to be replaced periodically.  I'm curious how fast it's used up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on February 28, 2020, 10:37:18 am
If it works, or even if it only partly works, this hydrogen + boron reaction may not be the only possible one. It's possible that the idea itself could spawn a new way of looking at the problem. Ideally you could do something with the helium by-product, and fuse to larger elements.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on February 28, 2020, 10:41:46 am
Speaking of the byproduct, would there be enough helium generated to help prop up our diminishing supply?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on February 28, 2020, 12:28:40 pm
If it works, or even if it only partly works, this hydrogen + boron reaction may not be the only possible one. It's possible that the idea itself could spawn a new way of looking at the problem. Ideally you could do something with the helium by-product, and fuse to larger elements.

Fusing things heavier than hydrogen takes increasingly extreme conditions. The reason we typically try for helium fusion is because the proton-proton chain's initial reaction is really, really, REALLY hard to make happen, so difficult we can't even measure the reaction's cross section experimentally. Fusing heavier elements involves overcoming increasingly large Coulomb barriers with processes that are highly temperature dependent (we're talking about processes with exponents like T40) and thus tend to be rather unstable when you don't have an entire star pressing down on the fusion region to keep things from getting out of hand.

It would be nice to be able to just decide we want some more [element] and order up a fusion reactor to make some, but not only would it be a rather slow process to get meaningful amounts of said material, you also have to hope that most or all the processes necessary in said hypothetical super-reactor don't go spewing neutrons all over the place, as that can either contaminate everything you make with radioactive isotopes or outright alter the materials you're trying to fuse and thus reducing output.

And of course instead of the usual suggestion of a reactor fusing helium that works "like the inside of the Sun", you'd need a reactor capable of simulating the inside of not just the Sun, but a star much, much larger than the Sun and with correspondingly more ridiculous pressures, temperatures, and densities.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on February 28, 2020, 05:16:06 pm
Why doesn't someone just give Columbo another case to solve so we can get our fusion burn on?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 01, 2020, 01:32:46 am
This is kinda neat too:

https://science.slashdot.org/story/20/02/29/0522239/some-clever-farmers-are-harvesting-metals-from-plants

Quote
The plants not only collect the soil's minerals into their bodies but seem to hoard them to "ridiculous" levels, said Alan Baker, a visiting botany professor at the University of Melbourne
...
On a plot of land rented from a rural village on the Malaysian side of the island of Borneo, Dr. Baker and an international team of colleagues have proved it at small scale. Every six to 12 months, a farmer shaves off one foot of growth from these nickel-hyper-accumulating plants and either burns or squeezes the metal out. After a short purification, farmers could hold in their hands roughly 500 pounds of nickel citrate, potentially worth thousands of dollars on international markets.
...
[T]he technology has the additional value of enabling areas with toxic soils to be made productive...

The good thing is if it's that easy to get and worth thousands of dollars then they'll start extracting it, the price will go down, and the industrially mined version will be priced out of the market.

The sad part is this:

Quote
Now, after decades behind the lock and key of patents, Dr. Baker said, "the brakes are off the system."

Apparently we could have been doing this decades ago, except someone was sitting on the patents. Mining companies, obviously.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on March 01, 2020, 02:09:21 am
Apparently we could have been doing this decades ago, except someone was sitting on the patents. Mining companies, obviously.

The assignee for the patent on nickel phytomining (US5711784A) is the University of Maryland (and, later, the University of Sheffield).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on March 01, 2020, 05:07:15 am
Perverse incentives in action


Researchers need money to do research.  The government does not want to pay them. The university they work for, does not really want to pay them.  What is a starving scientist to do?

Oh right-- Patent their discoveries, in the hopes that somebody wants to develop it, so that they can get some additional funding to do more research.  But nope, nobody will touch it.



I personally think that money for fundamental research should be increased, but then again, I clearly support the ivory tower moon-myth conspiracy that is promulgating false claims of corona virus being very near epidemic proportions and seriously dangerous, in order to circumvent the rise of God Emperor Trump for another 4 years with yet another hoax.



Damn... I need to get that sarcasm feature fixed-- I think it just about caused an explosion there.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Kagus on March 01, 2020, 06:34:58 am
Damn... I need to get that sarcasm feature fixed-- I think it just about caused an explosion there.

Depending on the size of the energy investment versus the explosive power of the result, you may want to patent it instead.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 24, 2020, 08:37:48 am
I thought this was pretty cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fu03F-Iah8 (~5 minutes)

A small company built an Archimedes Screw set-up but rotated the casing instead of the screw itself. It turned out that this was a pretty awesome set up with a number of advantages, but somehow nobody thought of it before, so now they have a patent on the design, and are selling them worldwide. It's kind of awesome that there are still some extremely basic engineering ideas out there yet to be found, but just nobody thought to try them before.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on March 24, 2020, 12:07:14 pm
I would expect a lot of extra friction from that method, which is probably why nobody has gotten it to work before.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 24, 2020, 12:20:28 pm
I don't know about that, apparently the method damages the material being moved less than rotating the screw does. Maybe that's because the force is spread around the whole thing, whereas with rotating the screw you're basically trying to force it to scrape its way up against the outer cylinder. They mention in the video that one of the advantages of this is that it produces much less dust.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 24, 2020, 12:23:06 pm
I would expect a lot of extra friction from that method, which is probably why nobody has gotten it to work before.

Well, I mean, the relative motion of the casing and the screw is the same, so I don't see why there should be. Or do you mean erosion from the water?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 24, 2020, 12:25:18 pm
I would expect a lot of extra friction from that method, which is probably why nobody has gotten it to work before.

Also, it kind of seems more that nobody has actually tried this before, rather than not "gotten it to work". It's a paradigm shift, that's why these guys were able to patent it so easily. You can patent an idea without having it working yet.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on March 24, 2020, 01:17:51 pm
I would expect a lot of extra friction from that method, which is probably why nobody has gotten it to work before.

Well, I mean, the relative motion of the casing and the screw is the same, so I don't see why there should be. Or do you mean erosion from the water?

Larger surface area (because it has to be large enough to fit around the screw), and also has frictional forces acting on it from both sides.


I would expect a lot of extra friction from that method, which is probably why nobody has gotten it to work before.

Also, it kind of seems more that nobody has actually tried this before, rather than not "gotten it to work". It's a paradigm shift, that's why these guys were able to patent it so easily. You can patent an idea without having it working yet.

I had a counter-argument for that, but I remembered the parachute that attaches under your chin, so you can safely* jump out of a burning building.

*The jumping part is as safe as it always was. The part where your head lands significantly later than the rest of you is an issue.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on March 24, 2020, 01:57:38 pm
Mechanical safety comes to mind: external moving parts are Bad Things.

Otherwise - it's definitely a neat alternative!

I think it's slightly more complex to manufacture too; a traditional screw doesn't need "scoops" for inlets but just needs holes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 24, 2020, 04:35:43 pm
If you look at the video, the scoops are really just a couple of holes on the sides. It really looks like that, at most you would want the metal slightly bent at the bottom so that it's more efficient to bring in the material.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 24, 2020, 08:54:14 pm
Drilling a hole in metal is harder than just snipping out a chunk of similar size, if all you need is an opening to pass something through I'd rather grab the snips than fiddle with my carbide bits and risk chipping one.

Source: I've done metalworking by hand for saws and some other tools, cutting is always easier and faster than drilling unless you've scaled drilling up sufficiently you'd have to retool for drillwork.

The rotating case drill method makes sense, same as pouring sand on a chick trapped in a pipe, the chick keeps moving to stay on top and poof it's out.

You could also arrange a drivetrain for spinning a case from the side at any point along the case, but a drill basically has to be spun from the inlet or outlet ends, which allows interesting new setups.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 24, 2020, 09:13:24 pm
same as pouring sand on a chick trapped in a pipe, the chick keeps moving to stay on top and poof it's out

I wish I had Max™'s elaborate yet seemingly efficient lady-obtaining powers.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 24, 2020, 10:37:58 pm
You need a lot more sand and a larger pipe for that kind of chick, my lady-obtaining powers amounted to unloading my lifetime supply of smoothness in a chatroom 17 years ago this June.

It does make sense though that having the lifted material pushing against the sides/the rest of the material as it slides up the ramp should be less damaging than having the ramp spin it up forcefully because the spinning case should let the material lift itself while remaining more loosely packed.

Perhaps the comparison should be moving the broom vs moving the dustbin? A spinning screw is the moving dustbin, while spinning the case lets the rest of the material act as a broom that is only as hard as itself, and less likely to crush and grind stuff up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on March 25, 2020, 07:26:12 am
It's definitely an interesting engineering exercise.  First of all, despite what the video says, it's not a completely symmetric situation: there are real differences between spinning the inner screw versus spinning the outer shaft which can be detected by a difference in the pressure distribution in the material being moved - rotating reference frames are NOT inertial so it is possible to tell if you are in a rotating frame or not.  One key difference is that in the rotating case, the bulk material exits with a notable angular velocity.  This means the transfer of energy is from different mechanisms.

NOTE: none of this means one way is "better" than the other - it's just saying there are real physical differences between the operating mechanics of both machines.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on March 26, 2020, 03:01:18 am
It's definitely an interesting engineering exercise.  First of all, despite what the video says, it's not a completely symmetric situation: there are real differences between spinning the inner screw versus spinning the outer shaft which can be detected by a difference in the pressure distribution in the material being moved - rotating reference frames are NOT inertial so it is possible to tell if you are in a rotating frame or not.  One key difference is that in the rotating case, the bulk material exits with a notable angular velocity.  This means the transfer of energy is from different mechanisms.

NOTE: none of this means one way is "better" than the other - it's just saying there are real physical differences between the operating mechanics of both machines.
What if the entire machine is loaded onto a platform that's spinning opposite the case? Then from your point of view, it's the case that's static and the screw is spinning again? :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on March 26, 2020, 07:28:45 am
Ooh nice: from the perspective of an inertial frame the case is stationary but the platform and screw are rotating - this is actually a third configuration.  We have now listed:

1. Traditional:  "bulk material" and platform and case in the same inertial frame, screw rotating.
2. "New": bulk material, platform, and screw in the same inertial frame, case rotating.
3. "Reelya's crazy newness":  case in an inertial frame, the bulk material and platform and screw in the same rotating frame.

I think there are these other two configurations to round it all out:
4. Case, bulk material/platform, and screw all in different rotating frames.
5. Case and screw rotating, bulk material and platform inertial.

Actually number 5 is the same behavior as the traditional.  Which is interesting.  Which leads me to believe: technically if you have a rotating case with scoops, you don't need the internal screw at all (although for solid materials it helps a lot). In fact, rotating case with inlet scoops and no screw is a just low performance turbopump.


EDIT: If the case is rotating relative to the bulk material, the scoops create a ram pressure effect due to the relative motion.  This pressure is the force that drives the material up the pipe.  In this configuration, the "pressure" of the material against the screw is a reaction, it is not the "driving" force - this can be shown by a free body diagram.

EDIT: IMAGES!!!  If you "unroll" the screw, you get a wedge.

Traditional screw pump: the wedge moves, creating its own ram pressure to raise the material:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"New" screw pump:  the wedge doesn't move, so something has to push the material up the wedge.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When the case is spinning, the "push" for this comes from the ram pressure of the scoop moving.

What these diagrams can't show is that the scoop version can only make pressure in the "wedge" direction by first making pressure in the tangential direction (into or out of the page for these drawings).  This tangential motion requires a radial pressure gradient to keep those particles moving in a circle; this pressure gradient is NOT present in the traditional screw, because the motion of the wedge is always in the "wedge" direction - it doesn't need tangential motion.

This is a fun digression   8)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on March 26, 2020, 03:33:48 pm
We must demand that Toady One implement "new" screw pumps alongside the existing ones.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on March 26, 2020, 09:53:14 pm
Yeah, taking the idea apart into a wedge and a wall was why the claim it made less dust seemed plausible, that tangential pressure is going to get applied against the other moving materials which are less likely to crush each other than the total forces coming exclusively from the wedge.

I suspect that's the same reason stuff comes out along the rim when the screw passes it and cycles around normally while spinning the case makes it scatter from the entire rim, all the rest of the material is lifting/scattering vs the presence of the screw causing material to pile up and fall off.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: KittyTac on April 10, 2020, 10:32:38 pm
Odd, I thought I'd have posted in this thread before. Anyways, as much as I dislike Trump, this is good: https://www.space.com/trump-moon-mining-space-resources-executive-order.html

The Moon and asteroids are obviously uninhabited, therefore they are OK to use environmentally-disrespectful-but-effective mining techniques on. The Moon holds vast amounts of fresh water (in form of ice) and is easier to launch rockets from, while asteroids might have metal ores.

Though it would have been better if it wasn't just America. I hope other countries will soon follow with similar projects.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 10, 2020, 11:37:10 pm
I don't think it's good. It's a bad idea to open space up to unilateral plunder. That will cause a huge arms race.

Also, sending up corporations into space to plunder as they see fit is pretty much the dystopian future we don't want. Say hello to a future of corporate feudalism if we allow that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on April 11, 2020, 08:51:20 am
I don't think it's good. It's a bad idea to open space up to unilateral plunder. That will cause a huge arms race.

Also, sending up corporations into space to plunder as they see fit is pretty much the dystopian future we don't want. Say hello to a future of corporate feudalism if we allow that.

Correct.


The Moon holds vast amounts of fresh water (in form of ice) and is easier to launch rockets from, while asteroids might have metal ores.

Moon is haunted.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on April 11, 2020, 08:56:25 am
I have a great sadness of thinking of looking up at the moon someday and seeing city lights*.  I think they should pass a law that human activity on the moon should be limited to the far side.

Other people, of course, think of such a thing would be awesome; a testament to human ingenuity and such.  They would think looking up at a "populated" moon would be cool.

*Yes I know you'd only be able to see them when not illuminated by the sun.  But I don't want to look up at a new moon and see human settlements. I like the dark disk, unsullied by human touch.

It's much akin to my dismay when they level forests or natural areas around here to put in a new shopping center or subdivision.  I want to see nature, others want to see "progress."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 11, 2020, 09:24:15 am
Pepsi planned to project a giant Pepsi logo into the night sky, and I bet your against that too. You're against freedom.

Let's face it, every square inch of stuff your eyes look at that's not covered in advertising is wasted space.

https://futurism.com/pepsi-orbital-billboard-night-sky

Quote
A Russian company called StartRocket says it’s going to launch a cluster of cubesats into space that will act as an “orbital billboard,” projecting enormous advertisements into the night sky like artificial constellations. And its first client, it says, will be PepsiCo — which will use the system to promote a “campaign against stereotypes and unjustified prejudices against gamers” on behalf of an energy drink called Adrenaline Rush.

Yeah, the project sounds like an elaborate prank. But Russian PepsiCo spokesperson Olga Mangova confirmed to Futurism that the collaboration is real.

“We believe in StartRocket potential,” she wrote in an email. “Orbital billboards are the revolution on the market of communications. That’s why on behalf of Adrenaline Rush — PepsiCo Russia energy non-alcoholic drink, which is brand innovator, and supports everything new, and non-standard — we agreed on this partnership.”
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on April 11, 2020, 09:25:49 am
I;d rather not have our sky be used as yet another tool for companies to use to manipulate the masses
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on April 11, 2020, 10:05:02 am
I;d rather not have our sky be used as yet another tool for companies to use to manipulate the masses

Burn down the sky before Pepsi can take it from us.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 11, 2020, 11:23:30 am
I mostly agree with KT. Especially since I hardly see the Moon's nature as beautiful. And yes, I would think a populated Moon would be cool. Also Mars. We have no real evidence of any advanced extraterrestrial species, therefore I believe space is all ours to exploit and colonize until proven otherwise.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TheSteppeWolf on April 11, 2020, 11:31:33 am
I mostly agree with KT. Especially since I hardly see the Moon's nature as beautiful. And yes, I would think a populated Moon would be cool. Also Mars. We have no real evidence of any advanced extraterrestrial species, therefore I believe space is all ours to exploit and colonize until proven otherwise.
insert the Colossus Of Rhodes but it's the Milky Way instead of Africa here
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on April 11, 2020, 01:26:34 pm
I don't think it's good. It's a bad idea to open space up to unilateral plunder. That will cause a huge arms race.

Also, sending up corporations into space to plunder as they see fit is pretty much the dystopian future we don't want. Say hello to a future of corporate feudalism if we allow that.
An arms race? An arms race of what, ever-more-efficient rocket engines and space infrastructure? Dozens of nations already have far superior destructive potential, and what corporations are going to somehow take over by doing things in space?

It's not that easy to collect space resources and get them down to earth. The reason you use space resources is to do more things in space. Stating that people should be allowed to access resources in space is not perfect, but it IS a functional way to continue to encourage people to work on solutions to starting up infrastructure in space. Some amount of regulation would be nice, but mostly in terms of practical matters like "get NASA's approval before you start messing with things, help the world's space agencies do science on bodies you want to mess with but that haven't been studied yet, don't go hauling asteroids closer to Earth without approval."

Basically: Asteroids will not help earth-focused corporations become more powerful, but making use of the resources available in space would be EXTREMELY helpful.

I have a great sadness of thinking of looking up at the moon someday and seeing city lights*.  I think they should pass a law that human activity on the moon should be limited to the far side.

*Yes I know you'd only be able to see them when not illuminated by the sun.  But I don't want to look up at a new moon and see human settlements. I like the dark disk, unsullied by human touch.

The likelihood that we'd be able to meaningfully illuminate any part of the Moon is....fairly minimal. The likelihood that we'd WANT to do so, even smaller. There's not really much future in seriously inhabiting the Moon, it's even less hospitable than Mars in many respects. Also, it'd take a LOT of work to actually illuminate the Moon enough to be noticed.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on April 11, 2020, 02:11:51 pm
Gosh imagine looking up at the night sky to find a glimpse of the Milky Way and seeing nothing but ads for shitty sugar-water because some twit thought ads weren't prevalent or intrusive enough. Makes you want to step right back inside and start work on anti-satellite weaponry because fuck that and everyone who thought it'd be ok.

Tho I really doubt it'll be happening anytime soon, partly because of cost and impracticality (light pollution says hi) and partly because of how fucking impossible it'd be to regulate since it's bloody orbital and that means global, so how to you tax that shit or regulate what gets show to who when it's something that's inherently available to everyone.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 11, 2020, 02:15:13 pm
Just hack the sats to project a giant dick in the sky.  Would solve something quickly I imagine.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on April 11, 2020, 02:27:27 pm
Gosh imagine looking up at the night sky to find a glimpse of the Milky Way and seeing nothing but ads for shitty sugar-water because some twit thought ads weren't prevalent or intrusive enough. Makes you want to step right back inside and start work on anti-satellite weaponry because fuck that and everyone who thought it'd be ok.
1. Finally, a good reason to put something similar to the Space Shuttle back to work, because there are few other ways to get somebody's satellite out of orbit without risking Kessler Syndrome.
2. As an astronomer I feel safe in informing you that the first person to attempt a giant glowing advertisement in the sky is going to rouse the wrath of NASA and every single observatory on the planet faster than you can say "bad idea".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on April 11, 2020, 02:39:18 pm
As an astronomer, can you explain Kessler Synfrome?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 11, 2020, 03:05:22 pm
I have a great sadness of thinking of looking up at the moon someday and seeing city lights*.  I think they should pass a law that human activity on the moon should be limited to the far side.
My long-time thoughts on this issue have been:

The visual rules should be easy to police (anyone on Earth can look up at the right time, grab an image and submit a report, to be checked against what any other crowdsourced monitor reports) and would mean no accidental loss of "Man/Rabbit/whatever in the Moon" and penalties applicable against deliberate Pepsi/Coke-style advertising wars.

It would not stop (vital?) strip-mining, anywhere but the Lunar Radio-Quiet Area, as long as the company commits to not over-extending work area beyond a significant proportion of a given pixel, then 'painting' the revealed surface with a careful blend of stored regolith to repicate the original albedo/etc before moving over to an adjacent strip. Or possibly applying a sub-pixel 'dither', lightening or darkening, as their own Earth-sited monitors report how close they are getting to the applicable limits.

For nightside compliance, areas such as spaceport landing pad(-complexe?)s and even biodome parklands, if they're safe to design in the open rather than underground with PV-panels feeding batteries that then supply 24h cycles of 'daylight' via LED, are probably not going to big and bright enough to influence a whole night-side pixel. But a special exception may be granted to places such as "Armstrong City" national monument, encircling 0°42′50″N 23°42′28″E (a hopefully protected area, in itself, though hard to entirely prevent natural or forced impacts from spoiling the place, this side of forcefield dome development) by a ring of floodlighting or similar.


Anyway, good luck mining the Moon. Watch out for the Space Nazis, though!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 11, 2020, 03:15:56 pm
As an astronomer, can you explain Kessler Synfrome?

Not an astronomer, but Kessler Syndrome is basically when you hit critical mass in the amount of satellites you could have in low earth orbit.  Too many and you risk them hitting each other in a chain reaction and littering a massive cloud of space debris around earth.  Such a junk cloud could make further launches into space impossible.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on April 11, 2020, 03:22:26 pm
As an astronomer, can you explain Kessler Synfrome?

Not an astronomer, but Kessler Syndrome is basically when you hit critical mass in the amount of satellites you could have in low earth orbit.  Too many and you risk them hitting each other in a chain reaction and littering a massive cloud of space debris around earth.  Such a junk cloud could make further launches into space impossible.
thank you
I’ve heard there are pieces of old satellites still in orbit, are there missions planned to capture those pieces and bring them back to Earth to scrap them to be used for new constructions?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 11, 2020, 03:25:56 pm
As an astronomer, can you explain Kessler Synfrome?
Not strctly astronomy.

But if you've seen Gravity, it's what (first) goes wrong there.

If you haven't, imagine two satellites (or other bits of debris, already) orbitting the Earth in different orbits (angle, mean distance, eccentricity, all can be vastly different) that at some point intersect. Deliberately or by chance. Smash! At orbital speeds (could be head on, so twice the instantaneous orbital speed, which is fast).

Now you've probably got a lot of fragments flying through space. Some may immediately de-orbit/escape orbit, without hitting anything, but many bits have a chance of intersecting with other orbitting items. Smash! Smash, smash, smash! SmashSmashSmashSmashSmash!!! Creating even more fragments, creating more more fragments. Until the chances of anything else up there (or later being put up there) not being hit is pretty remote.

Eventually this cloud of debris will deplete (rationalise into mostly ordered Saturn-like rings, maybe, what doesn't get shoved towards re-entry or become a comet-tail spewing out from Earth into inter-planetary space). But if the thing ever starts to go all Syndromy it's likely to put a brake on future launches for a while. Thus there's a lot of interest in de-orbitting or graveyard-orbitting EoLed satellites, where possibly, and developing methods for dealing with items (https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/15/18226051/satellite-spear-space-debris-harpoon) where it wasn't possible.

HTH.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on April 11, 2020, 03:30:30 pm
As an astronomer, can you explain Kessler Synfrome?

Not an astronomer, but Kessler Syndrome is basically when you hit critical mass in the amount of satellites you could have in low earth orbit.  Too many and you risk them hitting each other in a chain reaction and littering a massive cloud of space debris around earth.  Such a junk cloud could make further launches into space impossible.
Pretty much. The idea of Kessler Syndrome is that you lose one satellite, and it sprays debris across a huge range of space, and that debris hits more satellites, and so on, until low Earth orbit is basically a continuous hail of shrapnel and broken bits of satellites for potentially years as debris slowly deorbits.

As an astronomer, can you explain Kessler Synfrome?

Not an astronomer, but Kessler Syndrome is basically when you hit critical mass in the amount of satellites you could have in low earth orbit.  Too many and you risk them hitting each other in a chain reaction and littering a massive cloud of space debris around earth.  Such a junk cloud could make further launches into space impossibly risky. It's perhaps not LIKELY, but it's certainly a possibility and a massive danger. Hence why we get unhappy when idiots decide to test antisatellite weaponry and the like.

thank you
I’ve heard there are pieces of old satellites still in orbit, are there missions planned to capture those pieces and bring them back to Earth to scrap them to be used for new constructions?
As a general rule recovering satellites is incredibly expensive and not worthwhile for anything but historical purposes. You're right that there are hundreds of dead satellites and thousands of fragments of satellites large enough to be tracked...and many thousands more too small to see but large enough to damage or destroy critical systems aboard satellites or, worse, the ISS and other manned spacecraft.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on April 11, 2020, 03:39:16 pm
As an astronomer, can you explain Kessler Synfrome?

Not an astronomer, but Kessler Syndrome is basically when you hit critical mass in the amount of satellites you could have in low earth orbit.  Too many and you risk them hitting each other in a chain reaction and littering a massive cloud of space debris around earth.  Such a junk cloud could make further launches into space impossible.
Pretty much. The idea of Kessler Syndrome is that you lose one satellite, and it sprays debris across a huge range of space, and that debris hits more satellites, and so on, until low Earth orbit is basically a continuous hail of shrapnel and broken bits of satellites for potentially years as debris slowly deorbits.

As an astronomer, can you explain Kessler Synfrome?

Not an astronomer, but Kessler Syndrome is basically when you hit critical mass in the amount of satellites you could have in low earth orbit.  Too many and you risk them hitting each other in a chain reaction and littering a massive cloud of space debris around earth.  Such a junk cloud could make further launches into space impossibly risky. It's perhaps not LIKELY, but it's certainly a possibility and a massive danger. Hence why we get unhappy when idiots decide to test antisatellite weaponry and the like.

thank you
I’ve heard there are pieces of old satellites still in orbit, are there missions planned to capture those pieces and bring them back to Earth to scrap them to be used for new constructions?
As a general rule recovering satellites is incredibly expensive and not worthwhile for anything but historical purposes. You're right that there are hundreds of dead satellites and thousands of fragments of satellites large enough to be tracked...and many thousands more too small to see but large enough to damage or destroy critical systems aboard satellites or, worse, the ISS and other manned spacecraft.
Yes, the idea is if they are brought out of low Earth orbit, they could be broken apart so the pieces can be used for newer constructs, and you’d be freeing up space as well while using the metal for more things instead of waiting for them to damage things that are still working
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on April 11, 2020, 03:45:44 pm
But, you see, sending a rocket up there to manually collect many pieces is very expensive.

I believe I've heard of plans to build ground-based laser(s) to push individual pieces of space debris that are high-risk out of stable orbit with radiation pressure. Not sure where the development of that is at the moment.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on April 11, 2020, 03:49:56 pm
But, you see, sending a rocket up there to manually collect many pieces is very expensive.

I believe I've heard of plans to build ground-based laser(s) to push individual pieces of space debris that are high-risk out of stable orbit with radiation pressure. Not sure where the development of that is at the moment.
fair point, what about magnets? Or are the materials not magnetic?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on April 11, 2020, 03:53:49 pm
Well the pieces you'd get would be worthless to you, the metal and other materials you'd be recovering have miniscule value compared to the incredible costs of returning material to the Earth's surface from LEO.

But, you see, sending a rocket up there to manually collect many pieces is very expensive.

I believe I've heard of plans to build ground-based laser(s) to push individual pieces of space debris that are high-risk out of stable orbit with radiation pressure. Not sure where the development of that is at the moment.
This one's really cool, they actually are trying to burn off parts of debris, using the ablation of the material as a little rocket engine of sorts.

fair point, what about magnets? Or are the materials not magnetic?
They're not necessarily magnetic, though there ARE ideas that use magnetic "nets" of sorts to capture and force down materials in LEO, but those ideas are not ready for deployment any more than the laser options.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 11, 2020, 06:14:57 pm
There'd be little material value in grabbing-for-recycling (or other re-use, etc) non-working sats or bits of sats. No more than visiting your local scrapyard in constructing your new Hubble/whatever. (Almost anything usefully prefabricated could probably just be re-fabricated from scratch better. Unless you used you last half kilo of Unobtanium-13 in the original item, maybe, but that's not gonna be the case this side of a dreadfully-laboured film plot.)

And some objects up there, with military/intelligence missions to them, might be designed to not to be captured, and their owners not look kindly on non-owners potentially retrieving any bits.


The big need is to just stop the bits floating around out there (without any hope or need to get them home). Sooner than later, ideally, before it gets to the point where they're unmanagably numerous.

Of course, sending rockets up with things on them that can get other bits down is tricky enough, and you don't want to risk adding to the problem (your garbage-collector hitting other things badly, breaking so that it becomes garbage, leaving its own extra bits like rocket-fairings that reach orbital heights), and you're having to spend money on a launch that isn't adding communications, space-telescopy, supplies to spacemen, etc. So it has to be a harder sell. Luckily, some people take the Kessler thing seriously (as others did viral epidemics, so that might be scant reassurance).


Oh, and unless you're Wile E. Coyote, you generally can't hold a magnet out in the direction of a distant object and have it magically zoom towards you (usually including unforeseen things like stray airliners and mysterious anvils, as well as the ball-bearings that you previously hid in amongst the pile of birdfeed). Anything on Earth that could reach up magnetically to orbit and usefully help (with the Nickel, Iron, Cobalt or Steel bits, unless you can induce complimentary electromagnetism in other conductors as well, which is a thing in, e.g., aluminium sorting and recycling) is probably very much weaponisable here on Earth so not casually available for orbital cleaners to play around with.


Hence why it's still a very much embryonic concept, loads of ideas that are very rough and ready but no definite answers yet. The best current idea, in use, is just to try to make sure any sat you send up has a 'death reserve' of propellant, and the wherewithall to use it as your final act of control, to make sure the thing can be pushed down/up[1] and somewhere it is safer.

[1] As KSP players will know, it's not really those, but let's say it is to save time, eh? ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on April 11, 2020, 06:29:46 pm
Anything on Earth that could reach up magnetically to orbit and usefully help (with the Nickel, Iron, Cobalt or Steel bits, unless you can induce complimentary electromagnetism in other conductors as well, which is a thing in, e.g., aluminium sorting and recycling) is probably very much weaponisable here on Earth so not casually available for orbital cleaners to play around with.

More importantly any such magnet strong enough to meaningfully affect something three hundred kilometers up is strong enough to screw with things HORIZONTALLY out to a comparable radius. So, yes, if you could magic up the supermagnet to end all supermagnets you'd be able to force material (and live satellites) down for sure, but you'd also screw with every cable, piece of steel, and refrigerator for hundreds of miles all around.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: KittyTac on April 11, 2020, 09:04:06 pm
snip
I agree with you on this. As long as NASA (or the government itself) still has the power to shut anything too disruptive, corporations won't be able to, say, project a Pepsi logo in space. It would interfere with their observatories and be a collision risk. I actually want an arms race, because, as MM described, it probably won't involve outright war.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 11, 2020, 10:04:06 pm
NASA (and its government, with or without SPAAAACCCEEE FOORRRRRCCCCEEEE...) don't have a monopoly on launches. They can't even currently do manned ones for themselves (though they've got two or three contractors/corporate suppliers gearing up to the capabilty) meaning Russia has the main job of lofting people, and maybe they could have gone to the Chinese too.

Unmanned, however, you can add such as India, Europe-as-a-whole[1], Israel, South Korea, maybe their bestest friend and neighbour as orbit-capable, and an untold number more have suborbital vehicles that might lead onto orbital ones if they worked on them/imported mercenary expertise.

'Moon-capable' would be a list of at least Russia (if not other ex-Soviet states, by technicality and continuation of some personal space system), US, China, Japan, Europe, India and Israel. Only the US (and Kubrick, and the Third Reich) have put men on the Moon and not every attempt I'm listing has arrived intact (in the intended way), but that doesn't stop them doing something lunar enough times to get someone's message across.


It depends what you need to do to "light up the Moon". If it's projection onto it from Earth (or LEO, which is practically the same) then you're out of luck (https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/), but it might be easier (half the 'light flight' distance, so roughly a quarter of the attenuation and concentrated where you want it as well) to land a lot of floodlights in various spots and flare them up during a new moon.

Or just send nukes to flare up at the right time, maybe also leaving some discernable pockmarks afterwards, when the illumination passes over the sites.


Not sure what's most feasible (maybe just bombard the place with dust, the opposite of the "pixel-preserving post-pickaxing painting" I mentioned in another post) and who the people with the necessary cash to spend would go to in order to spend it. But the realm of possibility is flying its flag from just over the horizon at least.

[1] And various component nations in Europe did some launching of their own. e.g. UK could, pre-ESA, and might be able to cobble together something from its people's time in ESA if it officially pulls out, but I'm not holding my breath. At least not in a vacuum.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on April 11, 2020, 10:29:28 pm
The moon conversation reminds me of The Tick.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on April 11, 2020, 10:37:41 pm
UK could, sort of, except they killed their own space program as soon as the Black Arrow rocket had its first successful flight, because Parliament.

Anyway, all of the things you're proposing, Starver, are pretty much not reasonable. Yes, a bunch of nations can reach the Moon with small landers, but only the US and SLS (hahahahahahahahahahahaha darnit why is NASA governed so much by Congress) could loft a reasonably large payload to the Moon without needing hundreds of launches or more.

Nobody is going to go slinging NUKES of all things at the Moon. That's silly and it has zero relevance to the question of "will lunar industry ruin the view of the Moon". Why is anyone intentionally going to the Moon to place floodlights and how are they keeping them powered? Fields of solar panels and even more massive batteries?

It's just not going to happen, not really.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on April 11, 2020, 10:50:26 pm
Besides which, it would just be super sweet to see cities on the moon come on.
That's the most HFY view this side of a dyson sphere.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 11, 2020, 10:51:07 pm
The light on the moon is not filtered by any atmosphere. Solar concentrators and molten salt thermal storage could conceivably work on the moon quite well, using the regolith as the thermal energy sink.

The issue is the rather long lunar nights.  You would need to lay back a LOT of molten salt in insulated vessels, or have reserve chemical batteries to handle them.

On the plus side-- overhead wires on telephone poles would not have near the problems they have on earth, either with voltage bleed from producing HV coronas, or from wind, rain, or animals.  Would require a radical redesign of power transformers though to deal with heat and near vacuum...  but not impossible. That way you could make use of the fact that only at certain semi-rare events where the earth fully occults the sun, the sun would always be shining somewhere on the moon, and the nearly completely reversibility of the surface would let you put such power lines everywhere.

SpaceX is working on its super-heavy as well-- while not able to lift whole damn factories at once, it is much beefier than any of the other rockets out there besides SLS.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on April 11, 2020, 11:06:11 pm
SpaceX is working on its super-heavy as well-- while not able to lift whole damn factories at once, it is much beefier than any of the other rockets out there besides SLS.

Unless they've been decoying us all with the Starship work, SH is, in addition to all the good things about it, also the most overpromised rocket probably in history, given that we've not yet seen a single test article and Elon is, as usual, promising that the whole Starship/SH stack will be flying by the end of THIS YEAR.

Which, well, that ain't happening. It's yet another case of Elon TimeTM.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 12, 2020, 04:36:18 am
The issue is the rather long lunar nights.  You would need to lay back a LOT of molten salt in insulated vessels, or have reserve chemical batteries to handle them.
This is another of my long-standing thoughts on Lunar Development. Encircle the Moon with photovoltaics (or even grid it, my favourite is to go all icosohedral[1]) and anything else pre-planned, as very thin (lower than causes issues with my "Face Of The Moon Protection Act") corridors to allow light-side and dark-side activities to cooperate at all times to pool consistent power and ship it where it's needed (for artificial light, exactly the oposite side in effect).

Lesser feeds (in or out) could be extended across into the spaces delineated by the corridors from the most convenient points, whether that be spoke-like (towards the poles, if equatorial; towards the far/near-sides if rim-circling) or irregularly stellating the polygon faces (as with the icosohedral version, which newly services more Moon surface better once it is built).


But I'm worried that power-transmission is vulnerable. Outside the Earth's radiation belts, we may be subject to a kind of
Carrington Event for every solar storm that comes vaguely our way, without attenuation. Needs to be hardened. Also, though it's more work, suspending the prime transmission cables within tunnels, albeit those tunnels being a megaproject of their own, would seem more physically resilient than linesmen stringing wires across the bare surface, open to micro(/notsomicro)meteoroidal impacts.

I envisage the tunnel-digging to also add value to the Face Protection aspect while (and this is maybe my Fortress experiences influencing me) getting a whole lot of prospecting done by making it near impossible not to find some interesting rocks as we dig.


[1] Except in Quiet Zone, though maybe if the zone radius fitted neatly into the furthest of the far-side triangles (I worked out the extent, once, and I think it's about 30° around the antipode that would fit within the grid) it would still work.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 12, 2020, 04:45:23 am
Put the collectors at the Lunar poles. You get continuous light then for 6 months, and putting them on towers means year-round power. Also, the angle of the sun doesn't matter as much as it would at the Earth's poles, since there's no atmosphere in the way.

http://theworld.com/~reinhold/lunarpolar.html
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 12, 2020, 04:54:25 am
Which is why I favour rimward encirclement (if we're circling the Moon with collector farm power transmission), given all the other factors. And icosahedrally orientate to have points N and S rather than faces N and S (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/%D0%92%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B0%D1%8D%D0%B4%D1%80_%D0%B8_%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8B%D1%80%D0%B5_%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8.gif). Extend the polar collectors' power (and ground/underground transit routes) down across the hemispheres by whichever plan you initially adopt until you have both systems connecting at the equator and a ready-made zoning system handily mapped out.


I've thought a lot about this. ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on April 14, 2020, 02:05:46 am
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41541-020-0172-y

Great implications for human therapeutic use there!  Very good news.

Still too early to celebrate-- Murine model != Human model, et al--- but still very promising! I can hardly wait!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 14, 2020, 02:44:24 am
On the environment, and maybe engineering, still no need to worry about the fires raging around Chernobyl (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52277414).

It's a change from viruses, at least...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on April 22, 2020, 10:34:21 am
I was just reminded that stationing exists.

You'll see something like 1145 + 86.1, which means the location is 114,586.1 feet from. Why are the numbers grouped wrong? Why are we using decimal feet? Why would you use a coordinate system with no direction or explanation of where the numbers are starting? Because civils are the dumbest people on earth.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on April 22, 2020, 04:39:51 pm
I don't think it's necessarily silly.

If they're using grouping of 100 feet, that would be because of the available precision in their measurements. If they're that granular, it would be "fake precision" to specify them in an exact number of feet, so the tradition may have been to just specify things to the nearest 100 feet. That then indicates to the reader than there's an error margin of +- 50 feet, whereas if you always specified to the nearest foot, you'd have no idea if 114500 was to the nearest 100 or if it was an exact measurement. Basically, it's a way of indicating error margins.

Second, if you're going to use feet to start with, decimal feet makes sense when the precision is warranted since then you never have to convert units. That then scales up too, since you also don't have to deal with conversion to miles, just everything in hundreds of feet. Point being: individual feet would be too fine-grained for large scale measurements, whereas miles themselves are too coarse. 100 feet isn't far off from the square root of a mile in feet, so it's a good intermediate scale between the two. Having everything in a common base unit means the math is simpler.

It's the same reason that when dealing with farm area, it's specified in acres or hectares, no square feet or square meters, and not square miles or square kilometers. And you definitely would specify any leftovers as "decimal acres" because that avoids you having to do an unnecessary conversion to square feet. Measurements for a specific purpose are much easier when you have a unit with the right scale.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 22, 2020, 04:59:09 pm
Most people have ten toes, thus feet with exactly ten unique digits.

∴ decimal, QED!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on April 22, 2020, 06:38:49 pm
Most people have ten toes, thus feet with exactly ten unique digits.

∴ decimal, QED!

Hmmm.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 29, 2020, 03:59:34 pm
Material scientist Liangbing Hu at Maryland university managed to create a lightweight construction material out of bamboo that has 6 times the tensile strenght of steel, and can withstand more pressure than concrete and brick.
It could prove useful in construction, automobiles and airplanes.

His team managed this by first using a procedure also used in the paper industry, removing lignine from the bamboo, and afterwards compressing the cellulose with microwave radiation.

Now all that's left to do is to eradicate all giant pandas for trying to eat our steel shrubs.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on April 29, 2020, 06:26:28 pm
compressing the cellulose with microwave radiation

That's cool and all, but I'm really trying to figure out how the heck this works.

I also wonder if it can be produced on industrial scales easily.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Trekkin on April 29, 2020, 06:28:58 pm
compressing the cellulose with microwave radiation

That's cool and all, but I'm really trying to figure out how the heck this works.

I also wonder if it can be produced on industrial scales easily.

The radiation probably just crosslinks the chains together.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 29, 2020, 06:45:28 pm
If they had used Gamma Rays, they'd have had Hulk Bamboo!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on April 29, 2020, 09:02:36 pm
Wait, 6 times the tensile strength?

What's the tensile strength multiplier on steel we need to make a functional space elevator again?

EDIT: Nvm, it's something like 60-100, not 6. We apparently already have some materials that are strong enough, but mass producing them may be a problem. There's also other logistical problems.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on April 29, 2020, 09:22:11 pm
Wait, 6 times the tensile strength?

What's the tensile strength multiplier on steel we need to make a functional space elevator again?

EDIT: Nvm, it's something like 60-100, not 6. We apparently already have some materials that are strong enough, but mass producing them may be a problem. There's also other logistical problems.

The favorite material for the space elevator is usually carbon nanotubes, those have some serious issues with even atomic-scale defects being capable of compromising the hypothetical hundreds-of-kilometer-long-strands necessary for the elevator, IIRC.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on April 30, 2020, 08:21:29 am
Obviously we need to generate nanotubing in a more precise manner than we currently can with vapour deposition/etc methods, and in cross-sectional areas that would be difficult to accumulate in a standard manufactury process.

If we can adapt biological mechanisms to exude tubing (properly supplied with feedstock) to be gathered together like some spinnerette, optimised with just enough inter-tubule binding sites to fuse the strands together without distorting their integrity, and somehow grow this out (in both directions) from a suitably supplied geostationary satellite.

Though bio-tether may be subject to all kinds of problems, if the exuding biology 'sickens' from various space conditions, bad levels of care or... topically... viral infection. There could be a novel in this, if not real science/engineering. *ponders*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on April 30, 2020, 11:19:37 am
"Why are you late for work?"

"The space elevator had the flu"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on April 30, 2020, 01:30:07 pm
I understand the materials limitations of putting up a space elevator, but wouldn't the huge amount of trash (mostly non-literal) orbiting the earth be a larger concern? It's gotten to where observatories are having difficulties because of the amount that Elon Musk has put there alone, in addition to all of the communications satellites and whatever else.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on April 30, 2020, 08:25:09 pm
Yes, it is one of the big concerns about a space elevator. You would likely end up with a massive exclusion zone around the elevator, and before you put it up you'd need to be careful to clear the orbits it would interfere with of debris, which due to orbital precession and the like would pretty much require you to clear LEO of anything that can't steer its orbit to avoid the tether.

The army of satellites Musk has launched is a probably mostly due to their reflectivity during their orbit-raising phase and the fact that there's a lot of them. They are actually really low-risk as far as collisions go because they're all capable of changing their orbits and already have collision-avoidance and deorbiting built in. It's all the fragments of things that we can't track and can't steer that are truly problematic.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 01, 2020, 02:21:44 am
Space Elevator is thinking small.

Just build all of the Earth's surface upwards until you're in outer space.

if you build the entire earth up 20 stories that's equivalent to 20 more Earth's of floor space. Then keep building up, and eventually you won't need a space elevator.

EDIT: Some people ask where the aliens are, why wouldn't they expand. My thinking is that once you do the math you work out there's no reason to expand. We could easily build living space for Quadrillions of humans if we want in this solar system.

Also, with the possibility of simulated consciousness that makes the need to travel to other star systems for the point of "experiencing" it pointless too.

Consider this idea: if you can simulate consciousness, then that AI would have a current-state and a future-state, and you determine that the future-state is a valid successor to the current-state so that it's the "same" consciousness. Then, if you've determined some really great future-state for your AI, why even bother with the intermediate states? After all, previous states just exist as memories, there's no reason to even have them. Just make the ideal future-state consciousness who has really good memories.

Also, consider that you might be able to give inputs to two different current-state AIs that cause them both to converge to the same future-state AI. Effectively, that new AI is a merged consciousness which would view itself as the legitimate successor-state to both original current-state AIs. You could repeat ad infinitum, and have a single future-state AI which is the legit successor of all of any number of current state AIs.

A related idea:

Scenario 1) you are simulating a consciousness in one machine, then stop that machine, copy the current-state over to another machine and then allow the simulation to keep running. We'd say that's the same consciousness, right? since the simulation is what matters, not the hardware. Copying the data to a new machine then starting it up again should not result in any loss of consciousness. So the consciousness moved over with the data, right?

However ... consider:

Scenario 2) you are running two consciousness simulations in lock step, using the same inputs. Two different machines. You then stop one of the machines. Now, from the point of view of the stopped machine, this is identical to scenario #1. So did the consciousness "jump" in this case, or "not-jump" because there was already a consciousness there. Clearly, though in different "machines", they were actually the same "consciousness" to start with. This also suggests that if you can cause the states of two conscious simulations to converge, then that is literally the same thing as merging them, as long as you don't subsequent diverge them again.

My point here is that if consciousness can be digitally simulated, then we may have to abandon the very concept of "individual identities". The final frontier of understanding consciousness itself may well be the final existential crisis of humanity, making things like evolution vs religion look like children's bickering. How this relates back to the aliens idea is that if your race has had an exitential crisis where you realize there's actually no such thing as individual consciousness then a lot of things that make sense to us such as experience itself wouldn't make so much sense: you could compute a consciousness which is a legitimate simulation successor-state to any number of existing consciousnesses. Then, why would you even bother having people let alone going anywhere? Just compute a being that's had the best version of every possible experience and be that thing.

EDIT2: another way to understand this: imagine I teleported in "you from 10 minutes in the future" and then de-materialized now-you and left future-you in your place. Is that the same you or a different you? Logically, it's exactly who you physically would have become 10 minutes from now, so it is in fact the same you. Then, you can realize there's no difference between you-10-minutes-from-now or you-10-years-from-now or you-10-million-years-from-now. As long as it can be shown that they're the legitimate successor-state to your current "AI" then they are still you. So you can compute an ideal future-you, materialize that you and immediately kill current-you, realizing that for all intents and purposes you're still actually alive and conscious. And that future-you could be merged with other future-yous for different people.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on May 01, 2020, 05:34:50 pm
Some people ask where the aliens are, why wouldn't they expand. My thinking is that once you do the math you work out there's no reason to expand. We could easily build living space for Quadrillions of humans if we want in this solar system.

Also, with the possibility of simulated consciousness that makes the need to travel to other star systems for the point of "experiencing" it pointless too.

This is largely what I expect to be the case too.  I expect FTL travel or communications to be fundamentally impossible, which makes interstellar empires basically impossible anyway.  To even learn that a nearby solar system has planets / resources worth using would take centuries, and nobody is going to want to waste much effort sending ships to such a system when the return on investment takes just as long.

It just makes much more sense to expand within your own solar system.  Someone might want to expand to a nearby solar system to protect the species against extinction or something, but it's a massive undertaking that takes forever and you can't control or benefit from those colonists.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on May 01, 2020, 07:20:04 pm
another way to understand this: imagine I teleported in "you from 10 minutes in the future" and then de-materialized now-you and left future-you in your place. Is that the same you or a different you? Logically, it's exactly who you physically would have become 10 minutes from now, so it is in fact the same you.

If you can be killed without "future you" paradoxing out of existence, then it isn't the same you, but a parallel universe version.

I would also say that stopping/pausing a machine consciousness might be considered killing it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 01, 2020, 08:00:02 pm
Those are the exact type of questions that would need to be asked. The answers will challenge what we think we know about consciousness.

For example, if you take you now, then let 10 minutes elapse that's 10-minutes-future-you. it's the same you. I'm saying what if you take that you and push it back 10 minutes in time and erase "old you" at that point. Is that the same you or not? if not, why not? It was the same you before we did the time-travel bit, so why isn't it now?

You should also be able to pause an AI indefinitely, then start the simulation again and that shouldn't "kill" anything. For example say your running your AI at 1 billion updates a second, then slow it down to some lower rate of updates. That shouldn't change anything right? Even if the updates are 1 update a year right? So, then pausing the AI for a year shouldn't "kill" the AI either, as long as it resumes.

My point about the two machine stands however, let me reiterate that: if you're running a true-AI simulation on one machine and transfer the state over to a second machine then resume, that should continue running from that point, right? No break in consciousness, consciousness transferred to the new machine.

However, consider the situation where the second machine was already running an identical simulation, and you merely stopped the first machine running. Now from the point of view of the consciousness the situation is physically identical to the first scenario: the conscious simulation was running on machine#1, then it was stopped, then it resumed on machine#2 on the next update.

So, in this case where did the first machine's consciousness go? To the second machine or not? If not, why not? Do we say it couldn't have transferred over because the second machine was already "full" of consciousness? Saying there "was already a consciousness in the second machine so it couldn't transfer in this case" has no actual physical meaning or logic to it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on May 01, 2020, 08:55:52 pm
This got me thinking, if your consciousness and body were cloned, but your cl9ne ended up in a different place than you, the one that started as a copy would gain new memories, so when you eventually met, you two would be different. I know this isn’t quite what you were think9ng but it made me think of that
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 01, 2020, 10:13:16 pm
This got me thinking, if your consciousness and body were cloned, but your cl9ne ended up in a different place than you, the one that started as a copy would gain new memories, so when you eventually met, you two would be different. I know this isn’t quite what you were think9ng but it made me think of that
Your situation is a fairly used trope. "Thomas" Riker in Star Trek is one that you might have heard of (a Transporter accident, of course... I'm amazed they ever work correctly).

There's a book I got from a discount/remaindered book store a few years ago (must not have sold as well as hoped in regular outlets) where the whole thing about the galaxy was various different 'cloning' methods. Main protagonist is a (slightly imperfect) clone created from a hard-copy record of his bodyplan (to atomic level detail) that some mysterious aliens found floating in space. Blown up and smashed but (almost entirely) reconstructable. If you have patience to scour the vicinity for the fragments and enough additional patience to piece it back together. Then decode it, and use that information to reconstruct the person they discover it encoded. That's basically the set-up, and now we have this 'clone', a veteran of many an intragalactic military action, no knowledge of how 'he' got encoded and why the encoding got 'destroyed' setting off to solve his own mystery.
Fairly soon (n.b. 'soon' is relative, there's no proper FTL, the galaxy is a big place, the societies in it work with that limitation, including the ones who share single consciousness between different bodies dotted many thousands of LY apart, "left hand not (yet) knowing what the right hand is doing" is one way to describe it) he reunites with his old squad, whose individuals seem to embrace their own unique way of living in this clone-heavy technosociety. One of them seems to prefer duplicating himself, letting all copies wander around for years at a time then, when two versions meet up they go into a room, something is decided between himselves, one of him leaves the room with the combined experiences of himself now reunited in the only surving body of the pair.

Almost the opposite, a much older book I once read features a 'side-effect' of teleportation being exploited. Normally the source-body would be destroyed in order that the destination body would be the only extant one. If it is not, there's moments of confusion as the experiences of the two selves (seemingly 'linked' in a quantum/soul manner) vie to be experienced by both selves at once. However, if you teleport whilst in a sensory deprivation chamber then the link remains one version (the copy) can go and do something very dangerous and ultimately fatal, at which point the consciousness in the 'home' version survives but with memories of how the copy died. Which was very important in the plot of this book (it requires exploration of an impossibly booby-trapped alien ship/artefact, where it's useful to know exactly how you died last time, each time you get your copy sent into it again) though needed something of a unique mental attitude to tolerate being subjected to such death/resurrection.

Of course, that's all fiction. Made to satisfy plot needs. In lieu of practical apllication and study, either of cloning or (sufficient) AI, it's more hypothetical philosophy than any natural philosophy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on May 01, 2020, 10:41:04 pm
There's a book I got from a discount/remaindered book store a few years ago (must not have sold as well as hoped in regular outlets)

It's not necessarily that any particular book didn't sell well (in general) when they end up at those places.

What other bookstores do is they periodically clear stock to make room for new releases, so they sell large amounts of extra stock to those remainder places. You can't really return unsold books to the distributor to sell elsewhere. With the economies of scale of a retail book shop it doesn't actually make sense to keep every book in the store until they totally sell out. The same regular people are coming into to your store, so you need fresh stuff for them to look at.

My friend worked at one, they got pallets with a cubic-meter sized box jammed with books and it was his job to go through and sort them as to what they actually got (basically they were bought sight unseen, and it was a fucking mess inside those boxes). So they'd get between one and a dozen or so copies of any particular book. These pallets are not from the wholesalers, they're random junk crammed in there from when they clear retail bookstores but can't be arsed to sort them themselves: the point being paying someone to sort them out would be more costly than just cramming everything into a huge box then selling it, by weight.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 02, 2020, 05:56:15 am
There's a book I got from a discount/remaindered book store a few years ago (must not have sold as well as hoped in regular outlets)

It's not necessarily that any particular book didn't sell well (in general) when they end up at those places.

The other intimation of my assumption was that the story set down its complex scene-setting tale all the way up to the end of the book, setting out something (several things) biiiig as a potential galactic-scale plot arc, then ends. A search at the time revealed no second volume of the suggested series, so it probably failed to excite anyone enough to get the author to continue (or they were unable to, not for want of such a firm foundation), despite my own potentially continuing interest.

But this isn't the What Are You Reading? thread (it was once my "bag book", the one I had in a given bag to dip into while travelling, as opposed to the book by the sofa, atop the WC cistern, by the bedside, by the microwave, etc). Sorry. Forgot for a moment.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on May 02, 2020, 10:44:30 am
I think Elon Musk's recent tweets and the associated media storm are more confirmation of my theory that he's this generation's Howard Hughes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on May 02, 2020, 02:26:46 pm
Doesn't he have past form with 'deliberately' tweaking the share price?  (Yes, this is the thing I remember (https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-226), maybe I'll check what parts of it he complied with since then when I have a moment or two more.)  I personally think he's playing premeditated games with the market, rather than actually going full meltdown as he seems to want us to think.

Possibly a bit of Willy Wonka on top of Howard Hughes?  Pre-Charlie Bucket, that is.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on May 02, 2020, 06:55:33 pm
I think Elon Musk's recent tweets and the associated media storm are more confirmation of my theory that he's this generation's Howard Hughes.

I was thinking Dr. No, but sure.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 04, 2020, 12:03:28 pm
Interesting issue here.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-tech-morphing/germany-bans-digital-doppelganger-passport-photos-idUSKBN23A1YM

Using what are probably adversarial training techniques, they've come up with photos of "you" that face recognition software is tricked into thinking you're someone else, who they already have a photo of. But these manipulations are invisible to the human eye. Endless possibilities for that sort of thing. Any sort of automated ID reader could be fooled easily.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on June 07, 2020, 08:42:34 am
Why does every electrical tool out there that uses Li batteries now have proprietary battery packs?

I just had to replace my cordless drill, because its battery pack died and the drill is so old (maybe 15 years? Hardly old for a tool to be honest. I have hand tools that are 40+ years old) they don't make that pack any more.  The drill otherwise functions perfectly.  What a waste!  (I *might* be able to disassemble the old 14.4v battery pack and replace the cells... but I haven't tried...)

I'm thinking about getting an electric lawnmower, but they all have proprietary battery packs.  My gas mower is like 20 years old - it threw a wheel bearing but is otherwise operable.  In 100 years, assuming you stored it properly, the engine would still work if you poured in gasoline.

But will I be able to get a replacement battery pack in 10 years for the current batch of electric mowers?

This is actually a concerning thought about electric cars.  Today you can run a car that is 50, 75, 100 years old.  But will even Tesla be willing to make battery packs for today's Model 3 in 50 years? Will factories still be capable of making the form factor for the cells used?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 07, 2020, 09:24:36 am
If there's something you can't get, then you can look at that as a problem, but also as an opportunity. For example say you could 3D print an adapter for that battery pack that let you put in a standard battery replacement? Then, you got a real market there. There have to be a lot of people who are also like you chucking those old power tools out for the same reason, and you could refurb then.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on June 07, 2020, 12:02:46 pm
Heh - I almost concluded my post with "who's with me to start a company to make standard battery packs!"  But then I realized I'm lazy and would rather just complain and hint that "they" are part of a conspiracy of planned obsolescence and vendor lock-in for rechargeable battery packs.   ;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on June 07, 2020, 12:26:57 pm
I'm alright, Jack, I've got a load of AAAs sitting around!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on June 07, 2020, 01:44:54 pm
Heh - I almost concluded my post with "who's with me to start a company to make standard battery packs!"  But then I realized I'm lazy and would rather just complain and hint that "they" are part of a conspiracy of planned obsolescence and vendor lock-in for rechargeable battery packs.   ;)
Why not? First we need to get 3D printers, and samples of what is to be made, so we can better tell the computer how to make them. I’ve never used a 3D printer before, question: different ones use different materials, right? I’ve heard of attempts to 3D Print organs using tissues, which would likely be a different type of 3D printer than the ones we’d use for making battery packs, unless a 3D printer can use multiple materials?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 07, 2020, 01:58:40 pm
The printer used would definitely be different. Bioprinters are a far more specialized type of things vs the ones for printing basic plastic objects.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on June 07, 2020, 02:14:53 pm
Heh - I almost concluded my post with "who's with me to start a company to make standard battery packs!"  But then I realized I'm lazy and would rather just complain and hint that "they" are part of a conspiracy of planned obsolescence and vendor lock-in for rechargeable battery packs.   ;)

https://xkcd.com/927/
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Imic on June 07, 2020, 02:19:30 pm
There really is an XKCD for everything.

Everything.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on June 20, 2020, 07:03:26 pm
UC Berkeley has some report that says

Quote
Even with no policy changes, they predict that by 2035 America will have achieved 55% clean energy usage (due to increases in solar and wind power) while experiencing a 10% reduction in electricity costs. But under their 90% Clean (carbon-free) scenario, "all existing coal plants are retired by 2035, and no new fossil fuel plants are built," meaning the country "avoids over $1.2 trillion in health and environmental costs, including 85,000 avoided premature deaths, through 2050."

Wow talk about a new high in using long time periods to make numbers sound big:

$1.2 trillion over 30 years is only $40B a year, which spread across the 240M insured people is only $167 per year per insured person.  This is nothing.  It's actually probably less than that even, given that $1.2 trillion probably has some inflation rate attached.  My premiums are almost $500 a month - saving $15 a month is not really a meaningful personal improvement.

This is the reason why these changes have to be through public policy: there is not enough incentive for the individual to make changes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 20, 2020, 07:49:27 pm
That's actually unlikely about the inflation. If they're doing the math today, they're almost certainly calculating it in today-dollars rather than hypotetical actual 2050 dollars. There's no way that could be part of their calculation.

And that is not the full cost saved, it's the incremental saving of doing that policy change. The good news is that economics is doing some of the heavy-lifting for us already. Additionally, those costs wouldn't be evenly distributed among the years, they'd be more costly towards the end. So assuming the policy takes 15 years to be enacted (since it says 2035 to kick in) then the saving are after that, so 15 years = $333 per year per person in higher taxes and/or premiums. But you'd have to account for inflation on that figure too, and young people will be boomer-aged by then, so it's coming out of the money you're earning now, but with inflation, and at a time when saving interest rates are basically in the toilet. Damn straight and extra $333 per year in costs would fuck over a lot of people. Additionally "health and environmental costs" only covers a part of the impact. There's lost employment and productivity associated too, plenty of other externalities we're not taking into account for not dealing with the problem. Those other costs may dwarf the direct health and environmental costs.

Although I don't actually think the scale of the savings is the reason people don't do these things. Remember stuff like Nash Equilibriums etc. Even if the overall savings are HUGE, nobody has a specific incentive to be the one that starts it. The reason they don't is that if I reduce my emissions, it helps me a little, but less than the amount it costs me to reduce my emissions. But my emission reduction also helps everyone else out a little, and the fact is that if we all do it, we all save a lot of money overall. However, when you do a pay-off matrix from any one person's point of view, it's always economically better to not go along with the emission reductions. Either short term or long term.

Say as an example that your health insurance costs $10000, and emission-reduction costs $100, and if every did that, then insurance costs would be reduced to $5000, also say that the health savings from any one choice are spread over 5000 people. So, overall everyone spending $100 each sounds like a good idea right? Everyone saves 50 times as much as the investment costs. Yet, the Nash Equilibrium says otherwise:

Scenario 1) Say nobody else gets the emission reduction tech. You could spend nothing, and pay $10000 on premiums, or you could spend $100 and pay $9999 on premiums. You work out you're saving $99 by not getting emissions reduction tech.

Scenario 2) Say everyone else gets the emission reduction tech. Now, if you do spend the $100 yourself, then your premiums become $5000, but if you don't your premium only goes up to $5001. Again, it's not worth spending the money, so you stop doing it.

Scenario 3) Say exactly 50% of people have the emission-reduction tech. Then you can either get or not get the tech yourself, and the $100 will make the difference between premiums of $7500 or $7501. Again, everyone does the math, and decides that the reduction tech isn't worth it.

So, game theory shows that there can be paradoxical outcomes. In the scenario above, everyone choosing to spend $100 saves $5000 each a 50:1 gain, yet any one person choosing to spend the $100 only sees a benefit of $1, a 100:1 loss.

You can also see this as a variant of "tragedy of the commons". Say for example we shared a house and decided to split the electricity bill. I've worked out that I can spend $1 on electricity and generate $0.60 worth of bitcoin. Since you're paying half my bill, i decide that's a good idea (i am an asshole in other words). You then escalate by also setting up a mining rig too, offloading half your costs onto me. We keep escalating in this fashion, as whenever you do the math "will *I* benefit from adding 1 more mining rig" always turns up a "yes" answer. It's not about their being too small payoffs, it's that doing the dumb thing is always profitable for the individual, but it fucks it over for everyone else, and everyone chooses the profitable option, because that's the most "rational" from a self-interest point of view. So, these kinds of problems don't go away until you fundamentally change the perspective and decision-making process.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on June 21, 2020, 07:49:23 am
I think my argument is the same as yours - things like this are tragedy of the commons exactly because the effects are so diffuse an require a critical mass of investment, which is why it takes public policy to do it and relying on the "individual consumer" to make the decisions likely will not work well.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on June 21, 2020, 08:01:19 am
Yeah, although the "critical mass" idea is one you hear mentioned, that if enough people already do it, then the rest will just be swept along, organically.

However I specifically covered why no such critical mass holds true by showing three scenarios in the previous post, where it's not worth it for yourself to reduce emissions whether 0%, 50%, or 100% of other people are doing it. So there's no magic number where it becomes worth it to join in, as long as the economics stays the same. Which explains why these things are hard.

The problem is that the *direct* effect on yourself of the pollution you're personally putting out is unlikely to ever get high enough that the cost of reducing emissions is less than the individual benefit. So there is no "critical mass" of people where that starts being true.

For solar as an example, the critical point isn't the amount of other people who have solar, it's that solar panels are a cheaper form of production than competing forms. That then inverts the Nash Equilibrium calculations. The other way it happens is if regulations or laws remove the option to not reduce emissions: it takes that column of the payoff matrix out so it's not possible to make that choice anymore. In effect that would be the point that people start complaining that they can't buy gasoline cars anymore, due to various factors.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 03, 2020, 10:07:46 pm
Well here's an idea that will definitely piss people off. BMW are trying to turn basic features of their cars such as heating into subscription services. So you buy the car and you get 1 month of free use of the seat heating technology, and after that it shuts off and you freeze your ass off unless you purchase a subscription to use the hardware.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/07/heated-seats-as-a-service-bmw-wants-to-sell-car-features-on-demand/

EDIT: thinking about it the most likely reason they're keen on this idea of subscription services to use the car is that it would help kill off the second-hand market value of the car, if basic features of the car could only be used by the registered owner, while also guaranteeing a cut of the revenue for BMW in the post second hand market. Trying the idea out with something small like heated seats is testing the waters and get people used to the idea of having subscription-based features.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on July 03, 2020, 10:23:09 pm
I do not see the purpose of buying a vehicle you can’t use the parts of. Cars are not Netflix.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 03, 2020, 10:29:51 pm
Jokes on them, I can't afford a BMW anyway.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 03, 2020, 11:32:01 pm
What's to stop one from swapping out the seats? I checked, and you can get an aftermarket heated car seat cover for about twenty dollars on Amazon, for example.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Iduno on July 04, 2020, 12:28:20 am
Well here's an idea that will definitely piss people off. BMW are trying to turn basic features of their cars such as heating into subscription services. So you buy the car and you get 1 month of free use of the seat heating technology, and after that it shuts off and you freeze your ass off unless you purchase a subscription to use the hardware.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/07/heated-seats-as-a-service-bmw-wants-to-sell-car-features-on-demand/

EDIT: thinking about it the most likely reason they're keen on this idea of subscription services to use the car is that it would help kill off the second-hand market value of the car, if basic features of the car could only be used by the registered owner, while also guaranteeing a cut of the revenue for BMW in the post second hand market. Trying the idea out with something small like heated seats is testing the waters and get people used to the idea of having subscription-based features.

On-disc DLC for cars! Brilliant!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on July 04, 2020, 02:30:05 am
All this will do is build a hacking community for cars, which will spawn a dark-web(+) as people seek to bull their way in(*) on this purposefully engineered cudgel against the consumer.

* Hacker demands money out of people that they manage to compromise, in exchange for using basically any and all features of the car.  Such as say, being compromised through a malicious android app being paired with the car's entertainment center, or through a MitM attack against a map software update, etc-- How they get into the car is unimportant, that the car is designed to deny users access to basic features is what the blackhats will use to compel payments from unwary consumers.

(+) The whitehat groups will be all about giving control back to consumers, but the information they collect will inform blackhats, who will use the research that the whitehats publish about these locked down systems to better compromise those systems with exploits, for the sole purpose of harming consumers for profit.



Whoever the fuck is deciding that these kinds of things are desirable (Vendor lock-out and rent-seeking) needs to get taken out behind the shed and horse-whipped until their skin comes off.

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on July 04, 2020, 06:22:30 am
It should be illegal to sell thing that aren't services "as a service".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 04, 2020, 07:34:17 am
It should be illegal to sell thing that aren't services "as a service".

The "service" is that they don't remotely cut off the service.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 04, 2020, 07:59:51 am
Inb4 that scene at the start of Robocop (#2?).
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on July 04, 2020, 08:02:10 am
Inb4 that scene at the start of Robocop (#2?).
What scene?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 04, 2020, 08:28:08 am
He's referring to this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4ZYOBzEEs
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on July 04, 2020, 09:06:29 am
He's referring to this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4ZYOBzEEs
thanks. I’d imagine something like this would need a list of allowed drivers to prevent it from killing the owner/family members/friends etc.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on July 04, 2020, 04:13:10 pm
It should be illegal to sell thing that aren't services "as a service".

The "service" is that they don't remotely cut off the service.

Right, and it should be illegal. Complete with some kind of painful disincentive.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: thompson on July 06, 2020, 02:11:14 am
I’d be surprised if many customers approve of this shit. I fully expect them to backflip once the complaints start flooding in. Why risk a $40,000+ sale to make a few hundred bucks? Someone will get sacked over this. Probably not the idiot responsible, though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on July 06, 2020, 02:48:58 am
It's NOT "just a few hundred bucks."

It is entirely to lock out 3rd party repair, 3rd party parts, and 3rd party service (like software).  This is the John Deere model, only for consumers instead of farmers.

The industry will leverage its "victories" over right-to-repair to ram this shit though, and then your luxury car will be an even bigger luxury item, because the cost to keep it road worthy will bankrupt your pocketbook.


This little move can end up making those asshats millions of extra dollars every year.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: thompson on July 06, 2020, 03:11:39 am
It's NOT "just a few hundred bucks."

It is entirely to lock out 3rd party repair, 3rd party parts, and 3rd party service (like software).  This is the John Deere model, only for consumers instead of farmers.

The industry will leverage its "victories" over right-to-repair to ram this shit though, and then your luxury car will be an even bigger luxury item, because the cost to keep it road worthy will bankrupt your pocketbook.


This little move can end up making those asshats millions of extra dollars every year.

But will it? BMWs aren’t *that* luxurious, while the cars that actually *are* would never attempt shit like this because they know it’ll damage customer experience. I expect they’ll simply lose market share to Audi/Lexus/Tesla or whoever and everyone will look back at this as an example of what *not* to do in brand management 101.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on July 06, 2020, 03:52:50 am
Dont be so sure.  The automotive industry has wanted to kill 3rd party service for *DECADES*
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MaxTheFox on July 10, 2020, 03:06:59 am
Considering that complete mosquito genocide would, very unfortunately, negatively impact many ecosystems, what would be a good way to stop them from being a threat/great annoyance to humanity?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2020, 03:07:29 am
Not having blood anymore.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on July 10, 2020, 03:28:06 am
Introduce a new symbiotic microbe that actively kills pathogenic ones.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on July 10, 2020, 03:40:33 am
I wouldn't want to introduce any new microbes, since they can and will start being spread into other things.

Considering that complete mosquito genocide would, very unfortunately, negatively impact many ecosystems, what would be a good way to stop them from being a threat/great annoyance to humanity?

Seriously there are so many different projects involving mosquitoes going on. Here's just the first one I googled but there are at least several dozen different mosquito engineering projects going on.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/02/20/693735499/scientists-release-controversial-genetically-modified-mosquitoes-in-high-securit

Generally the idea is to use a gene drive to spread a gene in the target population. To give a simplified idea of how this works, it uses a system called CRISPR that they discovered in bacteria to copy genes. A copy of CRISPR can be designed to detect a specific sequence of DNA, and replace it with a different sequence.

The real trick here is that the sequence you're inserting can contain the DNA for the entire CRIPSR system itself. So, in normal genetics you get 1 gene from the mother and one from the father. However if you get one of the genes as a CRISPR version, it can then scan the other chromosome and if the non-edited version of the gene is there, it removes it and replaces it with a copy of CRISPR plus whatever other genes you wanted as a payload.

So, a CRISPR gene drive can force its way through the population, even if the mutation itself is detrimental to the survival of the organism. Normally genes get weeded out if they lower the survival rate of the organisms they inhabit, through survival of the fittest. However, since a CRISPR gene drive can just over-write copies of the original gene entirely, it effectively rigs the dice. So, say you had a gene for mosquitoes that causes them to attack the malaria parasite, and normally this would be a bit costly for the mosquito (slightly lower survival rate) which is why they don't do it now, then if you edited the mosquitoes with that gene and let them loose, the gene would die out in a few generations. However, if you couple that with a CRISPR gene drive, then the new gene will spread and take over, even though the affected mosquitoes themselves have slightly worse survival rates than otherwise.

Once someone has the gene drive working as intended in mosquitoes, then there are several possible ideas. One is to spread genes that prevent them carrying the malaria parasite, another is to flip the sex of all the mosquitoes to male (less eggs that way) another would be to engineer them to not like biting humans. The gene drive is really the delivery system and what it delivers is up to what we can think up.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on July 10, 2020, 11:29:51 am
Ideally we'd find a way to make them just uninterested in humans, but I have to wonder if we even have an idea of how to do that.  Presumably there are species of mosquito that don't bite humans and we can probably do genetic analysis to try to figure out why, but I'm betting it won't be straightforward.  Genetic changes to suppress malaria and other diseases will probably be a lot more feasible.  I'm betting a single protein change would do that.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on July 10, 2020, 12:09:06 pm
How about we just prevent the females from drinking any blood? Can they still reproduce on just nectar?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 10, 2020, 03:23:04 pm
They have to really want (https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Black_Ribbon) not to suck the B-vord (https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Ankh-Morpork_League_of_Temperance), by their own choice.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on July 10, 2020, 03:26:25 pm
They have to really want (https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Black_Ribbon) not to suck the B-vord (http://B-vord), by their own choice.
The B-vord url seems to have been broke
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 10, 2020, 03:31:42 pm
They have to really want (https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Black_Ribbon) not to suck the B-vord (http://B-vord), by their own choice.
The B-vord url seems to have been broke
Fixed in original... I don't know how it happened (though I have an idea), but it really wasn't as germane to the conversation at hand anyway. Except philosophically of course.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on July 17, 2020, 09:33:10 am
Are you being bugged? (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53445772)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on July 17, 2020, 08:46:55 pm
"In case of apocalypse, all 21 TB of GitHub code moved to cold storage at an actual Arctic vault"

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/github-open-source-code-cold-storage-arctic-code-vault (https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/github-open-source-code-cold-storage-arctic-code-vault)

Pretty cool that some of my iterinant wanderings got included.  Did yours?

(Linux dominance assured.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 05, 2020, 10:39:36 pm
Tests run on wireless charging vs wired

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/20/08/05/2031219/heres-exactly-how-inefficient-wireless-charging-is

Using wireless vs wired add up to 50% more power needed. Def go for the wireless if you like burning money and the environment.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 07, 2020, 09:59:31 pm
Really nifty examples in NN face generation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrdmCkmK3y4
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 26, 2020, 09:49:51 pm
This is Concorde all over again:

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/08/26/2354250/boom-supersonic-hopes-to-test-fly-its-supersonic-plane-in-2021

Quote
[Boom Supersonic founder Blake Scholl] describes himself as an Objectivist (a follower of the teachings of Ayn Rand) and previously worked for both Groupon and Amazon.
...
it's clear that Elon Musk's private spaceflight company is the model Boom is striving to emulate.

A good start, so we have an Amazon employee who's an Ayn Rand fan and wants to build high tech airplanes at his start-up.

If you read the article, the guy's basically trying to do a Concorde thing: < 100 passengers, ultra-luxury but in a sign of the times the stated route is Tokyo to Seattle instead of London to New York. The guy thinks he can sell 2000 of these planes for $200 million each. i guess he's hoping there are enough John Galt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt) types out there who will want tickets on these ultra-luxury jets.

My hunch is that this niche isn't as good as he thinks it is. On the one hand you have mass jumbo jets optimized for price per passenger and on the other hand you have private jets (with a plethora of manufacturers), optimized for transporting low numbers of people around. This thing would be somewhere in between both those things, too big to be a private jet and probably too small to be an effective option on a dedicated plane route.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 26, 2020, 10:21:29 pm
One has to wonder, at a moment in history when events have so depressed air travel[1], whether the hope is to try to attach to the 'inevitable' recovery curve of demand[2] or was to get into the prior size of market but got in too deep to put off the current previously-scheduled public announcement..


[1] Airlines are going out of business and even airports are operating at reduced capacities and laying off staff.

[2] Perhaps pinch off a subsection of it, just short of any Virgin Galactic/SpaceX suborbital intercontinental transfers that might arise.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 26, 2020, 10:53:21 pm
i am sleepy and crabby, so this probably contains too much snark--

But he could always pitch them to the GOP crowd, who refuse to wear masks even in the house and senate, and get uppity with staff that try to wear them.

As such, they could pitch the "midsize plane" as a platform that cannot be enforced for mask rules, where all their buddies and cronies can mingle in-flight.


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on August 26, 2020, 11:07:57 pm
Modern supersonic plane research is very interesting, but if they try to repeat Concorde's ideas they'll meet the same fate. There aren't enough people paying for that, there's a reason planes like the 747 and A380 tend to dominate transoceanic flights.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 26, 2020, 11:12:29 pm
What they should be looking into, is how to make an all-electric jumbo liner a reality.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on August 26, 2020, 11:12:55 pm
Get some absolutely incredible battery tech.


In short, it's not.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 26, 2020, 11:23:31 pm
Getting closer all the time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48630656


Not "Jumbo liner" sized yet, but large cessna personal jet sized.



Give it time. Some improvements in producing all-electric jet engines have also been made in the past few years.
https://interestingengineering.com/this-electric-jet-engine-could-lead-to-carbon-neutral-air-travel


Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on August 26, 2020, 11:27:13 pm
That engine is cool but I have serious doubts about its efficiency, and more importantly it doesn't solve the serious battery problem. Also, reliance on propellers restricts maximum speed. For something the size and speed of a jet liner, propellers can't be used unless you want to dabble in the delightful world of supersonic propellers.

The best example of a plane with a supersonic propeller is known as the "Thunderscreech", and I will tell you that it's a very apt name and leave it to you to figure out why :P

Bad jokes aside, we're a long way from the techs needed to do transoceanic flights or other long-distance routes via electric plane.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on August 26, 2020, 11:33:50 pm
Agreed; Nowhere near it.

But the tech is slowly being developed.  We would probably need ultra-compact fusion to power trans-oceanic flights with the electric jet engine tech.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Madman198237 on August 27, 2020, 08:38:27 am
I'm pretty sure that modern fission is more than capable of doing it. The problem is getting people to agree to having a fission reactor aboard a passenger jet :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on August 27, 2020, 09:48:02 am
What if we threw in some nukes as a package seal? That way it could simultaneously serve as a passenger plane and a nuclear bomber.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on August 27, 2020, 10:15:29 am
If we’re doing that kind of stuff, everyone needs Protection against ionizing radiation (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiAisGS1rvrAhXaZc0KHYqgAPIQFjABegQIEBAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNuclear-Radiation-Demron-CBRN-Suit%2Fdp%2FB07DBV824T&usg=AOvVaw23irwNPZNeFcU1iunqG2eA)
(It was the first link that came up)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 27, 2020, 10:35:38 am
For wide-body class jets, we will have to use synthetic fuels.  I don't think electric will ever be commercially viable unless we are willing to make it less convenient and more expensive.

Routing 10MW of electric power through an airframe in a reliable manner is a substantially less forgiving situation than flowing 10MW of hydrocarbon fuel.

That order of magnitude between 10MW and 1MW is a huge deal for electric power.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 27, 2020, 11:12:23 am
Reminds me that when Greta Thunberg was investigating means of getting across the Atlantic, one way or other, an airline apparently suggested they could fly her over in a plane fuelled with bio(jet)fuel. They were already geared up to use a small percentage mix of the bio-derived, routinely. They couldn't actually do 100% bio, though, so they suggested a special 50% mix on both legs of a return flight, instead, which "adds up to 100%"(!).



Which further reminds me that, in times BCE (Before Corona Epidemic), there was a lot of fuss about flight/travel taxation geared up to allow "one flight a year", per person, before introducing punitive environmental taxes on further extravagances. As a sop to the then-current trend[1] for even the lowest of the lower-classes (especially them?) to jet off to somewhere with a beach and sun[2], they didn't want to make the first flight expensive, as there'd be a revolution, just make the Simon Cowells of the world pay more, not those who were more distant cousins of Joey Essex, as the closest they got to such a true jet-set lifestyle.

But they never said "return flights", which I thoroughly enjoyed the mental image of[3]. Chavvy McChavface and family could afford to go to Costa Del Smallchange, but would not be able to afford to fly back until the next calendar year. Or they'd have to revert to a continental ferry/etc for one of the legs.


[1] Not entirely beaten out of us, CE (Coronavirus Era), given the number of people who snuck in a sneaky holiday to Croatia/etc then had to rush back before a certain desdline when it was announced that their destination was added to the Mandatory Quarantine On Return list.

[2] Usually as the UK enjoys "Hotter than Corfu/Morocco/The Bahamas" weather, here at home, or so the newspaper headlines tend to say a lit these last few years...

[3] Myself oonly ever been on one 'holiday' airplane (return-)trip, in a school outing to ski in the alps for a week or so. Every other visit to the continent (not on company business, and with no intention of just broiling myself mahogany-brown on a beach), including another one to the alps, was ferry/Chunnel and then road. And all but one of those that were family ones we only took the bikes across and cycled the whole rest of the journey in the country(/ies) concerned. Yeah, that's right... I was a Hipster before it was considered cool to be one!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 27, 2020, 12:58:44 pm
Reminds me that when Greta Thunberg was investigating means of getting across the Atlantic, one way or other, an airline apparently suggested they could fly her over in a plane fuelled with bio(jet)fuel. They were already geared up to use a small percentage mix of the bio-derived, routinely. They couldn't actually do 100% bio, though, so they suggested a special 50% mix on both legs of a return flight, instead, which "adds up to 100%"(!).

A good sanity check is the fuel consumption of planes vs driving. It's about the same adjusted for passenger count and distance.

A good common sense point is that airlines don't actually get a kick out of using up heaps of fuel, they do minimize this, and the trend towards bigger planes with more passenger capacity is in fact part of that. Flying a big plane is more fuel efficienct than flying two smaller planes with the same number of passengers. If they made a special plane trip for Greta Thunberg that would probably be horrendously inefficient thus produce more waste than otherwise.

The best way to minimize her footprint would in fact be to travel on the largest plane she could, but give it more wiggle room before and after, and buy tickets on a flight just before sales run out. Then she'd be using a seat that would have been empty anyway, and the marginal extra fuel used by the plane would be absolutely negligible.

So, flying somewhere could be far cleaner than driving, if you buy tickets to seats that would have gone to waste otherwise. For example if there were 100 seats, and 99 were filled and you bought the 100th seat that nobody actually wanted then the marginal extra load wouldn't be 1%, since most of that 1% was already used anyway just hauling the plane itself - the percentage you're adding isn't 1% despite their being 100 passengers. If that seat was destined to be vacant, you're adding whatever percent of the plane's weight that you weight, which is something like 1 in 5000. So you're adding 0.02% extra load.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 27, 2020, 01:09:14 pm
Stop it with the mathematical wizardry! What do you think this is, the engineering thread?  ;D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on August 27, 2020, 01:28:46 pm
There’s an engineering thread?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 27, 2020, 01:34:22 pm
There’s an engineering thread?
Yes.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 27, 2020, 01:47:47 pm
So, flying somewhere could be far cleaner than driving,
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Stockholm,+Sweden/New+York,+USA/
...loadsa metadata snipped from URL for readability only, as extraneous (the encoded map scale/centre stuff, mostly). Doesn't actually matter, it admits to no route in either form...

(I'm sure that, in the past - possibly not Google Maps but a precursor service - there was actually a 'land' route from Europe to the US, featuring Bering Straits ice-bridge. Perhaps it's actually still programatically there but seasonal and thus not current without changing date-data too.)


((The first version of that also required me to scroll down to the second Stockholm, the first being in the US (before I went into Directions, flipped it to be From and then added NYC), but Google obviously learned what I meant and won't replicate for me to examine at leisure.))


Anyway, to go via the Atlantic I'm obviously now off to electrically-retrofit a DUKW chassis.  6 ton(ne~) and 400 mile (road) range in its WW2 incarnation, with the 91HP engine. So definitely gonna need a solar-cell awning(-cum-sail?), for recharging, and likely some severly enhanced flotation/waterproofing/drainage systems too to deal with pelagic conditions.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 27, 2020, 01:49:57 pm
(I'm sure that, in the past - possibly not Google Maps but a precursor service - there was actually a 'land' route from Europe to the US, featuring Bering Straits ice-bridge. Perhaps it's actually still programatically there but seasonal and thus not current without changing date-data too.)
It was probably google maps, as google maps used to do all kinds of coy things like that before they started to hate fun.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on August 27, 2020, 02:07:19 pm
What other coy things were done?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 27, 2020, 02:10:00 pm
What other coy things were done?
The only one I clearly remember was that giving inputs on different continents would give you a route saying to kayak or swim across the ocean.
There were listicles on the subject at the time that are probably still on the dark web somewhere if you care to look.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 27, 2020, 02:13:27 pm
So, flying somewhere could be far cleaner than driving,
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Stockholm,+Sweden/New+York,+USA/
...loadsa metadata snipped from URL for readability only, as extraneous (the encoded map scale/centre stuff, mostly). Doesn't actually matter, it admits to no route in either form...

(I'm sure that, in the past - possibly not Google Maps but a precursor service - there was actually a 'land' route from Europe to the US, featuring Bering Straits ice-bridge. Perhaps it's actually still programatically there but seasonal and thus not current without changing date-data too.)


((The first version of that also required me to scroll down to the second Stockholm, the first being in the US (before I went into Directions, flipped it to be From and then added NYC), but Google obviously learned what I meant and won't replicate for me to examine at leisure.))


Anyway, to go via the Atlantic I'm obviously now off to electrically-retrofit a DUKW chassis.  6 ton(ne~) and 400 mile (road) range in its WW2 incarnation, with the 91HP engine. So definitely gonna need a solar-cell awning(-cum-sail?), for recharging, and likely some severly enhanced flotation/waterproofing/drainage systems too to deal with pelagic conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908_New_York_to_Paris_Race

Quote
The 1908 New York to Paris Race was an automobile competition consisting of drivers attempting to travel from New York to Paris.

"attempting".

But as for Greta Thunberg, they airline could definitely have seen about getting her some spare tickets on a plane with below 100% occupancy rate and her actual carbon footprint would have been near-zero.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 27, 2020, 02:15:52 pm
Quote
The 1908 New York to Paris Race was an automobile competition consisting of drivers attempting to travel from New York to Paris.

"attempting".
That's unfair, half of them apparently managed. :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on August 27, 2020, 02:17:34 pm
So, flying somewhere could be far cleaner than driving,
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Stockholm,+Sweden/New+York,+USA/
...loadsa metadata snipped from URL for readability only, as extraneous (the encoded map scale/centre stuff, mostly). Doesn't actually matter, it admits to no route in either form...

(I'm sure that, in the past - possibly not Google Maps but a precursor service - there was actually a 'land' route from Europe to the US, featuring Bering Straits ice-bridge. Perhaps it's actually still programatically there but seasonal and thus not current without changing date-data too.)


((The first version of that also required me to scroll down to the second Stockholm, the first being in the US (before I went into Directions, flipped it to be From and then added NYC), but Google obviously learned what I meant and won't replicate for me to examine at leisure.))


Anyway, to go via the Atlantic I'm obviously now off to electrically-retrofit a DUKW chassis.  6 ton(ne~) and 400 mile (road) range in its WW2 incarnation, with the 91HP engine. So definitely gonna need a solar-cell awning(-cum-sail?), for recharging, and likely some severly enhanced flotation/waterproofing/drainage systems too to deal with pelagic conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908_New_York_to_Paris_Race

Quote
The 1908 New York to Paris Race was an automobile competition consisting of drivers attempting to travel from New York to Paris.

"attempting".
They would need to make their cars amphibious and have those tools that make the cars float and move within the water resistant to corrosion vis salt
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 27, 2020, 02:18:13 pm
I just liked the idea, out of context, of them attempting to drive across the ocean not realizing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on August 27, 2020, 02:21:17 pm
Surely they’d do research on where the locations are compared to each other, and thus outfit their vehicles appropriately, of course, maybe they’d need boating licenses too, so they can build car boat hybrids, it would be interesting
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 27, 2020, 02:23:59 pm
Surely they’d do research on where the locations are compared to each other, and thus outfit their vehicles appropriately, of course, maybe they’d need boating licenses too, so they can build car boat hybrids, it would be interesting
They just had them shipped over as cargo, being from 1908 before fun was invented.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 27, 2020, 02:27:28 pm
It was probably google maps, as google maps used to do all kinds of coy things like that before they started to hate fun.
Back in the early 2000s, I know that one (preGoogle) service[1] had no routes between Scotland and England. (Nearly. The break in routing-data, on investigation of intermediate destinations from both directions, put the disconnect slightly north of the border. With no reasons obvious to me at the time, the day before I was making a journey I wanted to double-check. Though I was actually just going to head for the A1 road, follow my nose for a few hundred miles then follow the roads I knew well enough near my destination.)

So, yeah, might have been the heady early days of Google Fun I remember.  A quick search suggests a route from one or other point in far-eastern Russia to the extremities of Capetown (and/or the return journey) is the longest simple Direction that can be established without a Via.  (Capetown to ~Ushuaia, Tierra Del Fuago would be interesting.)

so they can build car boat hybrids, it would be interesting
https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/Amphibious_Car_Challenge_2

(Viewable on https://youtube.com/watch?v=YVjo6YOT3Zg - maybe?)


[1] My memory tells me it was MapQuest. But that might have been the one that somehow gave milages 100 miles shorter than the actual ground-distance. I'd excuse it as "early days", but given I'd used floppy-installed DOS/EGA-illustrqted route-mapping programs way back in the '80s, you think online services would have been no worse!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 27, 2020, 02:29:09 pm
you think online services would have been no worse!
Don't use technology much, do you? :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 28, 2020, 03:22:34 pm
Apple 30% commission versus The World:  Fight!

If I thought all the companies were actually looking to reduce prices that would be great. But I guarantee that if Apple stopped charging 30% it won't make companies change their price from $14.99 to $12.99; instead that $2 or whatever is just going to go somewhere else.  (I definitely don't want it going to Facebook.)

That aside - how would you (if you were a non-greedy corporate overlord) go about setting a price point for such a thing?  I'm not looking for a specific number, I'm just curious as to what process you might use to find that price point.  And something more specific than just "use AI!"

I'm wondering if maybe some kind of auction system would work, where you'd like say "Pricing for the next quarter: We will take $0.25 + X% of price.  Second highest price after 2 weeks of bidding wins!"
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on August 28, 2020, 03:41:50 pm
A lot of what that cut amounts to is marketing, I think. Like, if you're an indie game developer, the reason you'd want to get your game on steam and let valve have 30% of sales rather than sell from your own website is that people are more likely to stumble upon the game browsing through steam than just happen to find your URL. I'm not sure how much that's actually worth, but maybe marketing experts do.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 28, 2020, 03:46:25 pm
If I thought all the companies were actually looking to reduce prices that would be great. But I guarantee that if Apple stopped charging 30% it won't make companies change their price from $14.99 to $12.99; instead that $2 or whatever is just going to go somewhere else.  (I definitely don't want it going to Facebook.)

You're not taking into account that sales increase when prices drop. Why do companies pass cost savings onto customers at all? It's because they sell more units then. Any change in your costs changes the equilibrium point.

And another reason this is true is because if it wasn't it would lead to a contradiction: say the cost is reduced by 5 cents, and you lower the price by 5 cents and this change doesn't increase sales enough to cover losing 5 cents per sale, then ... you could have charged 5 cents more to start with, and that also wouldn't have affected the amount of sales enough to cut into the increased profits, so the original price-point should have been higher in the first place.

i.e. if sales are elastic and the current price is the optimal point for profit-making, then any change in costs should be passed on (change the sale price). However, this wouldn't be true if the amount of sales wasn't elastic at that price point, but if that was true then any sensible company would have been charging higher prices in the first place.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 28, 2020, 07:16:01 pm
Not sure it's technically this thread, but I want to point out that the latest Firefox for Android update that I accepted (without any clues what I would be accepting) has now adopted the Tabless paradigm for multi-paging (I use Chrome on here as well, and already know I dislike that method), and relative font sizes in Bay12 Forums has gone screwy. Perhaps for readability reasons, but it takes away more effective screen estate than the other fiddling changes gave me.

I think I'll switch to the desktop for a while, while I grieve the latest 'advances' in tech and software engineering. And switch to the venerable desktop for a while.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: methylatedspirit on August 28, 2020, 07:32:04 pm
To disable automatic font resizing (which sounds like the problem you have), go to Settings > Accessibility. The first thing is Automatic font sizing. Just disable that, and the font size wonkyness disappears. It's there for readability, as you said, but on legacy websites like this, it just gets all kinds of screwy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 28, 2020, 07:53:22 pm
I've spent too much time about this... and I have come up with an idea* that is as "free market" as you can get:  In the store, when you make a purchase, there is a slider that starts at 30%/70%. As the purchaser you move the slider to "Store curator" or "App developer" to decide who gets what cut.  I wonder what the "free market" would side.  Starting at 30%/70% is just because that is what it is "today".  Cap it so it can't go further than 98%/2% or 2%/98% or to where the smallest value can be no less than $0.25.

I would bet that 99% of purchasers would just leave it there at 30/70.  Then you'll probably have 0.5% of apps or something be pegged 98% to Apple, say (*cough* facebook *cough*) and the other 0.5% pegged 2% to Apple (I dunno, maybe some really popular indie game developer with a loyal following?).  Probably nothing in between.  Even if you put a "you didn't move the slider, are you sure?" nag in there.

Put another way: the vast majority of purchasers don't care - it's just the companies.


*Patent pending.  Not really, and in a sane world this would count as prior art, but now that we're in "first to file" instead of "first to invent" I don't know that it would hold water.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 28, 2020, 07:57:26 pm
That description is not actually patentable anyway.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on August 28, 2020, 08:16:03 pm
That description is not actually patentable anyway.

Hey now, this is the tech thread! And Tech tries to patent EVERYTHING! (and sadly often succeeds with less descriptive things than what I proposed above).

Spoiler: patent language (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 28, 2020, 08:22:25 pm
go to Settings > Accessibility
Oh, bravo. Exactly right. Glad I mentioned it.
(I poked around, in general, mostly looking to see if the Tabs could be restored as a legacy choice, but I would have never looked in that section, for this issue. I would go there to see if I could turn on an Accessibility feature, not to disable one enabled by default.)

I'd also like to point out that I've never purchased anything from an App Store (not in straightforward monetary terms, though I will willingly submit to viewing ads beyond the bare minimum which probably transfers weallth as a back-end aspect) so this proper conversation that I interupted intrigues me no end and leaves me wondering if I'm net better or worse for apparently being such a freeloader.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 28, 2020, 09:21:03 pm
I've spent too much time about this... and I have come up with an idea* that is as "free market" as you can get:  In the store, when you make a purchase, there is a slider that starts at 30%/70%. As the purchaser you move the slider to "Store curator" or "App developer" to decide who gets what cut.  I wonder what the "free market" would side.  Starting at 30%/70% is just because that is what it is "today".  Cap it so it can't go further than 98%/2% or 2%/98% or to where the smallest value can be no less than $0.25.

I'd just outright state that whatever you set the sliders as for the default is what 99% of people will leave it at. So it'll fail insofar as you're setting the default and only a few weirdos will change that, so you're not actually measuring the populations preference.

Source: some countries have high rates of organ donors (I'm talking like 99%), some have low (say 2-10%). Very few have rates in the middle. Some of them are countries that should be similar: Netherlands is 28% vs Belgium at 98%; Denmark is 4% vs Sweden at 86%. So what's the cause? in low-rate nations you have to tick the box to be a donor, and in high-rate nations, you have to tick the box to opt out. Hardly anyone bothers to tick the box. So what's an effective campaign strategy to get more donors signed up? Just copy whatever wording countries like Belgium are using on the forms.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on August 28, 2020, 10:22:42 pm
Holy shit, the conspiracy people are going to love this:

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/20/08/28/2338241/a-closer-look-at-elon-musks-neuralink-surgical-robot

Quote
Earlier today, Elon Musk demonstrated his startup Neuralink's brain link device working in a pig named Gertrude. While the science and the device itself were front-and-center at the presentation, the surgical robot the company debuted is equally as important because it's designed to handle the full surgical installation process. "That includes opening up the scalp, removing a portion of the skull, inserting the hundreds of 'thread' electrodes 6mm deep along with the accompanying chip, then closing the incision," reports CNET. TechCrunch takes a closer look at the robot:

It's a robot that cuts your scalp, drills a hole and then installs a microchip with hundreds of "thread" electrodes into your brain and stitches up the hole.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on August 28, 2020, 10:26:03 pm
And then you start loving elon musk
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 29, 2020, 03:09:21 am
Well, in a comic book, he'd already be the supervillain that came up with a hyperpheromone schtick to his crimes, so heçs just doing what he can despite the pull of nominative determinism.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on September 07, 2020, 07:10:45 pm
Are 'Lego blocks' the energy storage medium of the future?

https://theconversation.com/aussie-invention-could-save-old-coal-stations-by-running-them-on-zero-emissions-lego-blocks-144864 (https://theconversation.com/aussie-invention-could-save-old-coal-stations-by-running-them-on-zero-emissions-lego-blocks-144864)

A novel material called miscibility gap alloy can be used to refit existing coal power plants to run on renewable energy.  Blocks of the material store energy in the form of heat enabling the use of steam turbines.  They fill a middle time frame storage option (shorter than hydro, longer than lithium-ion).  The costs are said to be around $50 per kilowatt hour as opposed to the $200 or so for lithium-ion.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 07, 2020, 08:09:50 pm
Soo, better rocks?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on September 08, 2020, 12:23:47 am
More heavy metal than rock.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on September 08, 2020, 12:28:37 am
That's such a dumb headline. You can retrofit existing coal plants to run on renewable energy six ways to Sunday, it's as simple as "insert heat into water". Cutting the roof off and installing solar concentration mirrors could do it, although it sounds like a terrible idea.  :P
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on September 08, 2020, 12:41:55 am
In terms of efficiency, the very existence of the laws of entropy says that any system other than "Stored energy in -> Waste heat out!" is not going to work without adding additional energy to the system.

EG, "But my coal/gas fired power plant runs on biofuel!" just adds an inefficient solar energy collection, and then biomass processing stage, which would ultimately be less efficient than just putting big reflective mirrors around a big water heater.
 The only advantage would be in being able to increase production output based on load demand, like existing powerplants do.  It is up to the logistics fine print to determine if that benefit is outweighed by the efficiency losses of switching to a biofuel.





Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 08, 2020, 12:47:29 am
You haven't read the article? The new rocks are to address intermittency. They're filling the same niche as batteries, ammonia fuel cells, or gravitational storage.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on September 08, 2020, 12:54:02 am
The only benefit is being able to up-regulate production, on an "as demand dictates" basis.  Yes.

That does not remove the fact that reprocessing the bricks requires more energy than one extracts from one.  (meaning, straight up using that energy to generate power from the get-go, is more efficient-- at least in the vacuum of theoretical efficiency, distanced and displaced from such concerns as grid demand.)

Depending on just how inefficient the process is, vs how much economic gain there is to having the storage, is what determines if this is a viable technology or not.  (EG, how high peak-use pricing is, and how much peak-use pricing disrupts the market-- vs how cheap you can get the energy for off-peak storage/brick reprocessing. If there is a net financial gain, the tech is viable. If not, it dies in the cradle.)

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 08, 2020, 01:30:08 am
That's not 'the only benefit', that's the whole point. It's the only thing all those new storage methods people are working on are aiming to address. They're not trying to make the plants run more efficiently or drive the prices down, they're trying to make it so that a fully-renewable grid doesn't get blackouts every night or when it's less windy.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on September 09, 2020, 06:31:44 am
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/08/robot-wrote-this-article-gpt-3
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 09, 2020, 07:12:43 am
The computer doth protest too much, methinks...

I am marginally more reassured that "Believe me" was revealed to be provided in the seed, and not a spontaneously result of so much insincere use of it out there in its world of original research material.

(Would be interesting to see the eight "original" texts that were then human-edited into this published one. Even/especially if it took less time to do than with human input.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on September 09, 2020, 09:08:08 am
The computer doth protest too much, methinks...

I am marginally more reassured that "Believe me" was revealed to be provided in the seed, and not a spontaneously result of so much insincere use of it out there in its world of original research material.

(Would be interesting to see the eight "original" texts that were then human-edited into this published one. Even/especially if it took less time to do than with human input.)
I agree it would be wonderful to see what the AI actually wrote, not what humans edited it to be
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 09, 2020, 10:01:23 am
You know all they need to do now is make an online GPT-3 system that spits out 8 versions of something, then has a built-in editor where you do the moves such as chopping and changing paragraphs, to make one final version. Let half a billion people use that then train another AI off their examples.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 09, 2020, 10:20:29 am
The next generation of CAPTCHA!

(Also, related (https://xkcd.com/810/), now that I think about it... Though the Machine Learning Captcha (https://xkcd.com/2228/) one that my search also brought up, is not what I was thinking of but could be relevent to my first comment!)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on September 09, 2020, 10:31:01 am
You know all they need to do now is make an online GPT-3 system that spits out 8 versions of something, then has a built-in editor where you do the moves such as chopping and changing paragraphs, to make one final version. Let half a billion people use that then train another AI off their examples.
+1 to this
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on September 09, 2020, 10:42:38 am
A terrible, terrible idea.


Step 1--  Train a set of generative AIs like this, against sites like TheOnion, and against the political rhetoric of the US for the past 50 years. (Include state level politicians, like governors, so you have a very big dataset, with lots of bullshit in it.)

Step 2--  Train more AIs against news anchors. Spread it all over, you want GenericFemaleNewsAnchor and GenericMaleNewsAnchor. Thats the only categorical distinction you should put.  You want to make AIs that can take a "news feed" (generated by group 1), and then spit out semi-realistic prattle about it, and then "engage" each other in such idle prattle.

Step 3-- Throw in some good DeepFake AIs, along with the kind of human face generation software used by "ThisPersonDoesNotExist", to create the avatars for GenericFemaleNewsAnchor and GenericMaleNewsAnchor.

Step 4-- Do the same for various world leaders, to be able to generate "Interviews" and "news reports about speeches".

Assemble the entire shebang into a website called FakeNews.com

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on September 09, 2020, 11:01:10 am
A terrible, terrible idea.


Step 1--  Train a set of generative AIs like this, against sites like TheOnion, and against the political rhetoric of the US for the past 50 years. (Include state level politicians, like governors, so you have a very big dataset, with lots of bullshit in it.)

Step 2--  Train more AIs against news anchors. Spread it all over, you want GenericFemaleNewsAnchor and GenericMaleNewsAnchor. Thats the only categorical distinction you should put.  You want to make AIs that can take a "news feed" (generated by group 1), and then spit out semi-realistic prattle about it, and then "engage" each other in such idle prattle.

Step 3-- Throw in some good DeepFake AIs, along with the kind of human face generation software used by "ThisPersonDoesNotExist", to create the avatars for GenericFemaleNewsAnchor and GenericMaleNewsAnchor.

Step 4-- Do the same for various world leaders, to be able to generate "Interviews" and "news reports about speeches".

Assemble the entire shebang into a website called FakeNews.com
This actually does sound interesting, maybe the images and videos from FakeNews.com can be watermarked somehow so that if said things were shared, it would be known to come from FakeNews,com
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 09, 2020, 11:05:01 am
Step 5: Apply the FakeNew.com watermark to all regular footage, when nobody's looking.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on September 09, 2020, 02:42:43 pm
Step 6: ???
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on September 10, 2020, 12:12:23 am
So, Pocket suggested this story for me and I decided to read it.

Basically, throwback corn variety produces sugary ooze that promotes nitrogen fixating bacterial activity.
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-corn-of-the-future-is-hundreds-of-years-old-and-makes-its-own-mucus?utm_source=pocket-newtab


So; I have a different question.  Since this stuff is basically simple sugars in a suspension, wouldn't this work straight up as a fuel crop?  Some clip on collection trays (similar to what they use to catch opiate from opium poppies), and you have ready-made microbe food for making ethanol fuel, no?  I would need to see some numbers but it looks interesting as a prospect.

Is anyone aware of any work done on that front with this species?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 10, 2020, 02:18:45 am
The economics of the matter speaks for itself. *if* this was an easier way to get sugars, then it would by definition be a cheaper way to produce sugar in general, so companies would be expected to already be exploiting it.

Whether or not it makes sense to burn these sugars, or just any old sugars, as a fuel would be a secondary consideration.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on September 10, 2020, 02:34:12 am
The lack of general knowledge is an obstacle that you are not considering; When all you have is a hammer, all problems look like nails.  Not knowing that you have another tool to work with, or being unfamiliar with that tool, means passing up on potentially better solutions.

That's why I was asking if any work had been done.

Specifically, there is a large industry to produce fructose corn syrup from corn.  Even sweet corn does not contain a truly enormous quantity of these sugars; Processing from starches is often involved.  Since this juicy liquid slime is sufficient to provide up to 80% of the plant's nitrogen needs, through being a feedstock for bacteria of questionable efficiency (being wild bacteria in the open air, and thus having other bacteria involved as opportunistic parasites), this is already simple sugars (so processing from starch is unneeded), etc... 

Without investigation, you simply don't know. 
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on September 10, 2020, 05:56:21 am
Here, I found a paper that is open access that deals with this plant, and its exudate.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2006352&type=printable

Gives the following data about the exudate.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4xQ6DXBs/table.png])

It appears to be dominated by galactose and fructose.

The molarity of fructose and galactose together is very high; it's practically syrup.

Another study shows that normal fermentation processes with ordinary brewer's yeast shows high ethanol production rates for galactose.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1878818117306151

Other research shows me that fructose can also be bioconverted by the same yeast.


So, the real question now, is exactly how much exudate can you derive from these things.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on September 10, 2020, 12:04:25 pm
It appears to be dominated by galactose and fructose.

Fucose (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucose), not fructose.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 12, 2020, 01:53:36 pm
In case you've not seen the apparent Twittering about it already (I hadn't), I thought I'd share this news about the technology behind digital pregnancy testers (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54025997) that I found... interesting.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 17, 2020, 05:38:08 pm
With help from the police, speeding in your Tesla drive is a dream.. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54197344)

(My take-away from that, after actually checking and finding that Alberta has 100kph absolute limits (though 120kph is the max limit found anywhere in .ca), is that the cars that pulled aside only for the blue lights were previously 'holding back' the unattended Tesla whilst themselves going at maybe >=40kph over the limit. But that's not the point for this post, just an observation.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 17, 2020, 07:46:50 pm
My brain is clearly not in future mode, because self-driving cars are apparently already a thing but we're still working out how that fits with our existing laws. Now we're at the point of asking not whether Tesla Autopilot cars are involved in accidents, but whether they're involved in more or less accidents per road mile than an averagely competent human driver.

Rather than the clean break from full-manual to full-auto that we might have imagined, this general easing in of AI features into cars is probably a more realistic way this stuff ends up in the market. The insurance people are the ultimate number-crunchers here: when those guys mandate that certain drivers have to have auto-pilot turned on to reduce their insurance premiums then you'll know the tech has come of age.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 17, 2020, 10:57:30 pm
Like my 2020 car and its advanced cruse control.  It's able to detect its in lane and supposedly match speed with the car in front of it.  All you'd need is to teach it how intersections work, and hook it to the bluetooth phone GPS.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on September 17, 2020, 11:13:38 pm
Like my 2020 car and its advanced cruse control.  It's able to detect its in lane and supposedly match speed with the car in front of it.  All you'd need is to teach it how intersections work, and hook it to the bluetooth phone GPS.

But also make it read signs, be aware of pedestrians and other obstacles, understand other cars' intentions, evaluate unusual situations on the road, ...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 18, 2020, 12:10:19 am
Signs are for weak meat-brains.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 22, 2020, 07:21:23 am
Television bests Internet! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54239180)

Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on September 26, 2020, 02:28:13 am
People who are worried about 5G signals have no idea how lax RF emissions standards used to be.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/09/when-televisions-were-radioactive/570916/

tl;dr - back in the 1960s they discovered that most manufacturers of color TV sets made ones that were blasting viewers with X-rays.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on September 26, 2020, 03:01:11 am
A lot of CRTs can generate X-rays. Cathode Ray and X-ray sources are related technologies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_tube

The major difference being that CRTs aim the electron beam at a wide anode at the front of the CRT, and use it to excite phosphor material embedded on the inside of the glass, using a shadow mask and deflection plates, and typically run at lower voltages.

the X-ray tube is essentially a CRT, minus the deflection plates, and with a much smaller anode, driven quite a bit hotter.


As the article points out, it is the high voltages that give rise to the x-rays.  Later CRTs probably have a weaker flyback transformer, and fire a lower voltage electron beam.  This was likely made possible by better formulated color phosphors that needed less energy.  Still, any CRT is potentially an X-ray tube, given enough juice.


These days almost nobody is using a CRT, and LCDs are incapable of producing X-rays (that I know of anyway.. Maybe some old generation ones that use a CFL backlight, if the backlight is both high voltage, and poorly designed... But today's LCDs use an LED based backlight, and those are very low voltage.)



Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 26, 2020, 03:04:17 pm
(I'm not even sure that was a CRT screen. Trying to work out whether that meant it was a pre-Digital Rollout TV. I suppose it could be being fed by SCART...  Anyway, I just thought you'd enjoy that. As with this, as I seem to be finding Technology/Engineering Fail things.)

So, a football club has a very smart coach to transport them around, with a very smart safety gadget fitted that sprays a fine alcohol solution around the interior as preventiative disinfectant.

It seems it already had a very smart safety gadget fitted that would prevent the coach from being driven if it thinks the driver is inebriated.

You already know the punchline. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on September 29, 2020, 09:23:45 am
Not (yet?) a tech failure: Jetpack helimedics! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-54341378)

Well, potentially. Can't help feeling this'll be (jet-powered-)pie-in-the-sky, with marginal gains[1], more for publicity (of both partners), but it's 'proven' engineering in and of itself...


[1] There's sometimes a trek from the safest landing place for the helimed unit to the casualty, and back with them on a stretcher. Maybe it could shave off time for the jetpack-pilot/medic to attend, if they can unpack an strap on and start up the thing quickly enough, but not obviously going to help any more on the return journey.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on September 30, 2020, 02:32:50 am
So, something not foolish for a change.


Recently, Mozilla's email client, Thunderbird, has started supporting encrypted email using GPG keys "intrinsically".  It no longer needs additional installs of GPG for windows, or Enigmail.

Once set up, it works transparently. 

I figured this was worthy of mention, even though almost nobody but super nerds like me will have any reason or desire to use encrypted email.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 03, 2020, 02:39:22 am
A curious device was demonstrated by the university of arkasas.

https://phys.org/news/2020-10-physicists-circuit-limitless-power-graphene.html

Uses thermal excitations in graphene to do work. Numerous curious applications.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Rockeater on October 03, 2020, 11:54:34 am
ptw
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on October 03, 2020, 11:55:16 am
Re: graphene thermoelectric power article:

I imagine Palpatine shouting "unlimited power!" rebutted by Inigo Montoya saying, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on October 03, 2020, 01:25:04 pm
UNLIMITED
POWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Telgin on October 03, 2020, 07:12:43 pm
I keep getting distracted by every news source repeating the meaningless unlimited power line, but it sounds like this is actually a pretty profound result if it does disprove Feynman's assertions like that article provides.  Something sounds fishy in general about this though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on October 03, 2020, 08:48:43 pm
But can they power those special LEDs?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 04, 2020, 03:42:48 am
The over-unity ones?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on October 04, 2020, 05:08:42 pm
The over-unity ones?

Yeah. Then put them on a space craft as a radiator.

The resulting light could also possibly push a solar sail, assuming the emission of photons by the LEDs doesn't cancel that out. Not sure how much thrust you could actually get, though.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 04, 2020, 05:15:16 pm
INB4 too many of these clever little tricks get stacked together, the Universe finally realises what's going on and then resorts to collapsing the false vacuum, or somesuch, resulting in... well, nothing.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Ziusudra on October 04, 2020, 07:24:56 pm
INB4 too many of these clever little tricks get stacked together, the Universe finally realises what's going on and then resorts to collapsing the false vacuum, or somesuch, resulting in... well, nothing.
Nah, the admins will just roll back and patch out the exploits. We'll never even know it happened.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 07, 2020, 11:32:42 am
As a result of "penetration (Sic!) testing" (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54436575), yet another example of how the Internet Of 'Things' approach is perhaps not always entirely fully thought through.

(The manufacturers at least do now have a hardware solution to stop you irrepairably damaging any firmware, in case you find yourself unable to eject a floppy.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 20, 2020, 02:20:11 pm
Me again.

Remote control forklifts (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54431056). (Gives jobs to people, rather than robots, I suppose.)

I think the idea of a microphone being installed should be a no-brainer (though surely at least two, to provide stereo or preferably binaural ambience). Though the reported comment about this...
Quote
"If someone is behind that forklift and says, 'Hey, you're about to hit me,' the operator can hear it just like he's sitting on the forklift," says Mr Katz.
...is delightfully understated.

edited for tyops
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MaximumZero on October 20, 2020, 02:31:03 pm
ptw

Also: It seems like graphene can do everything except leave the lab.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on October 20, 2020, 02:32:54 pm
Getting high quality films of arbitrary characteristics mass produced is what keeps it shackled to the lab, or so I am led to understand.

(There are some high volume methods to produce graphene sheets, but the sheets do not meet the needed regularity and low defect rates needed to do all the wonderful shit graphene is supposed to be able to do.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on October 20, 2020, 03:39:42 pm
Just clearing out my backlog of randomly saved articles

Came across this story about a music artist who went viral with a track on Spotify, hit #1, but then they hit him with a copyright claim on a sample he used.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/the-worst-best-day-of-my-life-how-a-song-went-viral-then-suddenly-disappeared-871991/

However, looking into it, the "sample" is someone else's entire song by an indie artists from Japan, which he cut down to 2 minutes, and merely added an extra drum track. It got taken down, but then because of some complaints, they put in back.

"sample" version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6LB6nrkoJU

original song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB7XFQgJHBI

Wow, is it easy to get an article written about you, just appropriate an entire song, cut it shorter, add drums, then post it everywhere. I guess this is ok now, mainly because an "obscure" Japanese indie group doesn't have lawyers that will come after Spotify and Youtube to follow up on take downs.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Rockeater on October 28, 2020, 08:50:01 am
ptw
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 01, 2020, 02:23:37 pm
As I mentioned it in an aside elsewhere: Chatbot talks to Chatbot (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54718671).  (Not that it hasn't been done before (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc439).)

And, frankly, I'm disappointed in what I've seen.

To quote in the article:
Quote
"Did you know why women can't put on mascara with their mouths closed?" asks Kuki.

"Thank you for sharing it with me," replies Blenderbot, politely but entirely missing the point, adding for good measure: "You are a good person."

Knowing something about how the grande dame that is Eliza works (I typed in a minimal version of her into a BBC Microcomputer in the early '80s, and I subsequently found it almost impossible to 'fool myself' with the IRC version afterwards, though I could still enjoy how others interacted with her) it's entirely obvious that Kuki's "Did you know <foo>?" was contextualised as "Fact: <foo>" in Bb's 'mind', spurring the generic 'I don't immediately know[1] what to do with that' response. Needs a bit more work (manually or by automated competitive 'learning', for which you'd probably also need automated competitive teaching) to extract and identify just that little extra syntactic sense...

A bit like the bits in the lined Eliza/Parry that go something like "*It's clear to me if not to you." "Do you think its likely that not to I?" (my formatting to explain the 'logical' progression).


[1] Or may have a choice set of fuller responses, but opted for the generic "Thanks, please continue" one.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on November 16, 2020, 12:59:40 am
I’m not sure if this counts as news but YouTube recommended me a video of a robot I’ve never seen before (https://youtu.be/JtMiofUCQhA)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 18, 2020, 10:07:58 pm
I have been ruining my mind:

The Intel 4004 Schematic (http://datasheets.chipdb.org/Intel/MCS-4/4004_schematic.pdf)

EDIT: unrelated: I bought an external GPU for my aged computers. Holy coil whine!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on November 18, 2020, 10:30:01 pm
I’m not sure if this counts as news but YouTube recommended me a video of a robot I’ve never seen before (https://youtu.be/JtMiofUCQhA)
Oh hey, I posted this video on the Happy thread when YouTube recommended it a few days ago. It’s a cute little thing ain’t it?
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 19, 2020, 12:22:35 am
I have no idea about the Happy Thread, but I'm unsure if you didn't realise you were replying to yourself?


...anyway, I'd been saving up some things to say on here (or possibly in the Space Thread) once I wasn't double-posting.  What were they again? Hmmm... There was the thing about the Chinese launching their claimed '6G' satellite/tech-tester. And Hyperloop had been tested at high (but partial) speed on its test 'track' with human passengers. I'll edit in the rest if/when I remember.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on November 19, 2020, 08:21:13 am
Oh...I should check usernames more often


The stuff about the satellites and hyper loop sounds d interesting
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 19, 2020, 12:03:50 pm
(Sometimes I scroll up, on re-entering an old thread, to make sure I'm not missing context, see a post that I largely agree with but find the typing or grammar to be awful. ;) Not yet (unintentionally) replied to myself, though.  :P)

Hylerloop: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54838982
6G Satellite: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-54852131
...taken from topmost search results, just now, though I didn't actually hear about these on the Beeb.

And I had half a dozen things I know I thought might be interesting to post here (slightly niche tech stuff - in the 2020 world of news, anyway), but I still can't remember what the others are...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on November 19, 2020, 05:03:59 pm
Arecibo Telescope  :'(
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on November 19, 2020, 07:25:03 pm
Arecibo Telescope  :'(

Green Hydrogen  :)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 19, 2020, 07:32:20 pm
Blueberry muffins
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: feelotraveller on November 19, 2020, 07:35:49 pm
Now, now this is not the cooking thread.  :D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 19, 2020, 07:46:14 pm
Now, now this is not the cooking thread.  :D

Cooking is just chemistry you can eat
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Reelya on November 19, 2020, 11:23:00 pm
Chemistry is just chemistry you can eat, that will kill you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 19, 2020, 11:31:08 pm
Chemistry is just chemistry you can eat, that will kill you.

Chemistry is just chemistry you can eat at least once.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Max™ on November 20, 2020, 01:58:38 am
Exciting enough chemistry can not be eaten even once, there are things that will kill you if you're able to breathe anything coming off of it, there are things you could try to put in your mouth that would set it on fire if you somehow lasted that long or moisture in your breath didn't ignite it, then there are the things where if there was enough of it to see and it got anywhere near room temperature it's possibly taking out the room you're in when it explodes but at the very least you're not gonna be able to eat anything before the shockwave reaches you.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on November 20, 2020, 10:26:14 am
Chemistry is just... (https://wonderfulengineering.com/happen-made-periodic-table-cube-shaped-bricks-elements-stacked-together/)

(Imperfect/uncorrected copy, I notice.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Jopax on December 31, 2020, 10:59:41 am
They're practicing for the moment they wipe us out, so that they can dance on our graves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on December 31, 2020, 12:38:23 pm
They're practicing for the moment they wipe us out, so that they can dance on our graves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw&feature=youtu.be)

I will really worry if they make them self-replicating, able to power themselves off biomass, and EMP-resistant.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on December 31, 2020, 01:31:58 pm
They're practicing for the moment they wipe us out, so that they can dance on our graves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw&feature=youtu.be)

I will really worry if they make them self-replicating, able to power themselves off biomass, and EMP-resistant.

Luckily, only two of those apply, so our Tunnel 'Hovercrafts' have a last resort defence! (So long as nobody's trying to use a local Wifi Hotspot at the same time.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on December 31, 2020, 09:43:08 pm
I was thinking more Horizon Zero Dawn, not The Matrix. Especially with their dog bots.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on December 31, 2020, 09:59:07 pm
They're practicing for the moment they wipe us out, so that they can dance on our graves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw&feature=youtu.be)

Spoiler: push, push (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: TomJo on January 21, 2021, 09:16:32 am
Just share this with you.
Scottish company Skyrora has completed final tests of an orbiting transport vehicle (OTV), which can carry out a number of space missions after payload delivery, including replacing its backup satellites or even removing space debris.
In the era of mass launching a lot of everything into orbit, such developments may turn out to be a necessary thing.
The press release states that the Skyrora XL launch vehicle was originally designed with the capabilities of the future third stage in mind.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 04, 2021, 06:19:38 am
Major setback for Microsoft's quantum computer project at the university of Delft.

The research group lead by Leo Kouwenhoven reports that they cannot reproduce the results from their previous research that 'showed' the existence of the majorana particle, on which the whole concept of Microsoft's quantum computer is based. They have retracted their 2018 publication from Nature magazine.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2101/2101.11456.pdf
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Egan_BW on February 04, 2021, 10:57:59 pm
Woohoo! Negative results! :D
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on February 08, 2021, 09:47:43 am
I'm really intrigued and baffled by the whole cryptocurrency thing.  I mean Tesla just purchased $1.5B (yes, billion) in bitcoin as a financial move.

What I don't understand about this whole movement is that what are they investing in? I feel like it's pure accounting trickery, not actual production of goods and services.  Is there any aspect to the valuation of bitcoin that isn't just accounting effects?

I understand the idea of having a distributed ledger that doesn't use the traditional forex or banking channels. What I don't understand is the huge valuation associated with the tokens used for such transactions.

I really lean toward the fact that the valuation of cryptocurrency is mass hysteria, but because it's an economic hysteria it actually has real effects in the world.

Full disclosure - although I have spare cash with which I could buy crypto and probably make some profit, I refuse to do so because I feel it's dishonest gain.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 08, 2021, 10:46:48 am
It's pure investment. Futures trading on steroids, because there's no actual "future" thing to trade upon how you think it will, eventully, "presently" trade (or how you think others will shortly think about how yet others may think think... the actual trades will unfold).

It's therefore just "turtles all the way up"...

(Unless it's one of those ledgers that holds within its eventual 'mining' output some 'useful' data, such as the solution to some real-world problem outwith the purely ledgerising one. But I'm not sure those are better done this way than by dedicating super-/cluster-/distributed-computing MIPS/BIPS/etc to.)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: thompson on February 09, 2021, 12:58:52 am
It's pure investment. Futures trading on steroids, because there's no actual "future" thing to trade upon how you think it will, eventully, "presently" trade (or how you think others will shortly think about how yet others may think think... the actual trades will unfold).

It's therefore just "turtles all the way up"...

(Unless it's one of those ledgers that holds within its eventual 'mining' output some 'useful' data, such as the solution to some real-world problem outwith the purely ledgerising one. But I'm not sure those are better done this way than by dedicating super-/cluster-/distributed-computing MIPS/BIPS/etc to.)

Pretty much this. The “advantage” is that you don’t have to worry about poor real-world performance of your asset raining on your parade, as there is no real-world asset to perform anything.

As an aside, I recall working with a man who was dabbling in Bitcoin way back at $150. I thought about it, but didn’t want to put money into something I didn’t really understand. It was the sensible move, but alas, fortune favours the brave.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on February 09, 2021, 01:57:02 am
What I don't understand about this whole movement is that what are they investing in? I feel like it's pure accounting trickery, not actual production of goods and services.  Is there any aspect to the valuation of bitcoin that isn't just accounting effects?

I understand the idea of having a distributed ledger that doesn't use the traditional forex or banking channels. What I don't understand is the huge valuation associated with the tokens used for such transactions.

It's kind of like buying foreign currency, I think. Let's give an extreme example: Imagine being a German post-WWI. You exchange your marks at the rate of 4.2 per US dollar in 1921. Two years later, marks have suffered severe hyperinflation. The exchange rate is now 4.2 trillion marks per USD.

Had you stuck with marks, you'd now be completely bankrupt. Instead, you've got USD, which have remained relatively stable. You don't really want to trade your USD back for trillions of marks (for practical reasons,) but can instead just spend your USD for goods and services.

Bitcoin is a bit like that. Since bitcoin becomes increasingly harder to mine, it has inflation controls built in. It's like the old gold standard of currency, but without tying up gold. It's not legal tender, though, so it's only valuable if people are willing to sell you stuff for it.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 09, 2021, 10:01:15 am
Future non[1]-inflation has the interesting effect of making future scarcity inflate current pre-scarcity demand. Getting on the bandwagon with investments or datafarm mining (or nefarious hacking of one or other sort) essentially hyperinflates before the controls (increasingly) control the end-value.

It's a different inflation to the "we can always print more money" one (because everyone knows/should know that less more money will be printed, vs. the wheelbarrows-of-wads-to-buy-today's-bread situation), but it also puts off anything but saving (and accumulating when you can) thus making Bitcoin/etc purchases for tangible products/viable services ever less realistic until the hype crashes.

I wouldn't call it "deflation", because it's still a commodity, and the currencies used to buy the commodity aren't themselves (notably) hyperinflating, even though they clearly are like Weimar cash vs the Dollar/etc . It's whatever you'd call the Tulip Mania/South Sea Bubble hypes, while they were still hyping.

Maybe it'll be better once it becomes more like land-investment ("...they aint making it any more!") or antiquities buying where it, generally, makes for a safe-ish sink for sufficiently surplus real-world monies, but with a more trivial bartering system built in[2].


Recently, on the subject, this man (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/14/man-newport-council-50m-helps-find-bitcoins-landfill-james-howells) popped into the news again. Or maybe it is a new one, but there was definitely a similar quest made by someone else a few years ago. Could be different, as I think that other one was actually digging in the recently dumped area (unhindered/trivially aided by the site workers) for his drive.  - What annoys me most of all, is that someone(s) dumped a workable HDD, without any attempt at recycle, re-use or even securely wiping/physically wrecking it before recklessly (as well as erroneously) landfilling.


Sorry, mixed bag this post. But maybe some additional Tech/etc stuff beyond finance/movies. ;)





[1] Or increasingly restricted, anyhoo

[2] ISTR a 'near future' sci-fi show, maybe 10+years ago, was one of those "unusually decent human cop chosen[3] to partner the very latest human-looking robot-cop" plots and it features 'bitcoin wallet' devices where people routinely 'fistbumped' them[4] to exchange petty payments, in leiu of dollar-cash/-transfers for some future "we have robots but physical currencies have tanked" reasons. Possibly it was a standard half-apocalypse. Lighter than Blade Runner/Dark Angel. Just enough grit to be gritty, yet robotics had improved well past Boston Dynamics level, but still Chappie-like rather than Humans/Terminator, until this prototype.

[3] I think it was more others trying to get the experiment to fail, and part punishment by those above not quite so squeaky-clean in their coppishness. There was a general Elijah Bailey/R. Daneel Olivaw vibe to it, naturally.

[4] Not sure how they 'dialled' the quantities. That film with functional immortality but made Logans Run through a time-as-currency thing with Justin Timberlake later used the length of the arm-grasp relate to the transfer quantity (and relative attitude perhaps also affect the rate, as well as the direction). Probably this thing's fist-bumpers had thumb-operated microcontrols to allow presets to be activated as well as whatever biometrics/etc gave it its N-factor authentication tying the thing to its rightful owner
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: McTraveller on February 09, 2021, 10:27:49 am
This is awesome:  transparent wood! (https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/scientists-develop-transparent-wood-that-is-stronger-and-lighter-than-glass-1.5902739)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on February 09, 2021, 01:20:37 pm
This is awesome:  transparent wood! (https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/scientists-develop-transparent-wood-that-is-stronger-and-lighter-than-glass-1.5902739)

I've seen a video on something similar by NileRed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1H-323d838
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: EuchreJack on February 09, 2021, 05:26:11 pm
It seems too easy to replicate for it to be realistic.  Only hidden component is the "Marine Epoxy".
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 09, 2021, 05:35:39 pm
If only all research were that transparent
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on February 09, 2021, 06:17:35 pm
This seems off. In the video nilered applied lye, sodium sulfite, and hydrogen peroxide in solution (completely submerging the wood pieces, not just brushing some hydrogen peroxide onto them) to remove the lignin and even then you could notice some brown color left in some of the pieces.

Plus they looked not nearly as transparent and much more cloudy than this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That image doesn't even seem consistent with the image at the top:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The image at the top seems more cloudy. (And even then less cloudy than nilered's synthesis. And that guy went through a whole bunch of tweaks and methods.)

Though also nilered's synthesized pieces were 3mm thick and not 1mm...
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 09, 2021, 06:29:08 pm
Plus they looked not nearly as transparent and much more cloudy than this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That image doesn't even seem consistent with the image at the top:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The image at the top seems more cloudy. (And even then less cloudy than nilered's synthesis. And that guy went through a whole bunch of tweaks and methods.)
To be totally fair - and I am, in fact, also suspicious of the claim - I am not at all convinced that the first image isn't just as cloudy as the second. Look at the fine detail of the leaf veins visible around the square, which are, except for the largest, totally smudged into green oblivion within. Similarly, in a few places you can see evidence of the same streaking seen in the second image, but less obvious presumably because the angle of the picture causes less glare, and possibly because the leaf is much closer to the square, reducing the diffraction. Rather, I think the subject of the first picture was deliberately chosen to make the square look clearer than it really is by virtue of a subject with relatively little noticeable fine detail to blur, flat enough to minimise the distance from the square.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: bloop_bleep on February 09, 2021, 07:45:39 pm
It's also worth noting that nilered soaked the wood pieces overnight, not just for one hour. And I don't think it's a choice of wood because the article says any wood can be used.

Also, I don't think untreated wood bends and folds like paper, even when just 1mm thick:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also it credits the picture to Qinqin Xia at "University of Maryland/Science Advances". But I couldn't find a program or paper with that name online. It feels like "National Academy of Proceedings" from xkcd.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 09, 2021, 08:22:36 pm
https://www.homehacks.com/bend-wood-with-vinegar/ - noting that it didn't get rave reviews of its efficacy, but treating wood into a bendable state (including steaming and forcing into a desired curve) even quite thick timbers is a time-honoured boat-building method, amongst other things.

What I'd expect, from 1mm-thick wood (which can be quite bendy, even untreated) in this chemical-heavy process is that you essentially eat away the torsion-resisting structure (which contains most of the fully cross-linked mass) but leave the tension-resisting bits, then if the thin and entwining fibres that remain are embedded in a clear epoxy it gives anti-brittleness properties above what you'd get from the epoxy alone. Perhaps enough to be worthwhile.

If you've ended up with essentially colourless filaments in transparent epoxy without trapped voids (probably the most important bit), it could serve as a window. Slightly 'textured', internally, but not as bad as frosted glass to view things like landscapes through. And if the materials have less heat-transfer propensity than glass (highly likely), that'd be definitely a bonus.

Not saying I'm totally convinced by the article (and didn't yet watch the video), but it's not so far fetched as a possibility.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: wierd on February 09, 2021, 11:20:43 pm
It denatures the lignin in the wood, which is the structure that binds the cellulose fibers together.  Without it, the fibers will shear apart easily.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on February 10, 2021, 09:08:12 am
You don't leave it like that, though. You re-bind with epoxy before you consider doing anything like throwing stones at it.

(Going on the article - from memory - prior attempts tried to remove the colour-infused lignin, this one just treated it to bleach out the colour. But 'damages' its interlinks somewhat. And once the wash is, in turn, washed out, it probably retains some lignin cross-link, before you ramp it up by epoxying it.)

I'd like to see what epoxyed cotton wool (or even uncarded sheep wool) would be like. Perhaps with minimal preprocessing (the non-cellulose wool needs scouring to at least clean/delanolin it). If it's cellulose-only treated wood we're actually getting, to compare with, it would save the whole 'dissolve everything else!' aspect by starting with near-pure cellulose (beyond standard deseeding and other cleaning up). Though it'd also be tempting to suggest also trying this with polar bear fur (famously clear and colourless and some hairs hollow, thus having transparency; though not actually fibre-optic), either method of farming this material is probably beyond the pale.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Frumple on February 10, 2021, 09:17:42 am
The student slaves research assistants would probably get hella extra credit for living through shaving a polar bear, though! Think of their GPA!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Bumber on February 11, 2021, 02:54:57 am
Shave the polar bears!
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 16, 2021, 05:50:53 am
The university of Delft managed to achieve a new milestone in quantum networking.

Where a stable quantum connection between 2 physcial points has already been achieved a few times, the research team in Delft now is the first to build a network connecting 3 physical points.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/wereldprimeur-delftse-fysici-bouwen-rudimentair-quantuminternet~bb42b1ac/

https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.04471

Quote
The distribution of entangled states across the nodes of a future quantum internet will unlock fundamentally new technologies. Here we report on the experimental realization of a three-node entanglement-based quantum network. We combine remote quantum nodes based on diamond communication qubits into a scalable phase-stabilized architecture, supplemented with a robust memory qubit and local quantum logic. In addition, we achieve real-time communication and feed-forward gate operations across the network. We capitalize on the novel capabilities of this network to realize two canonical protocols without post-selection: the distribution of genuine multipartite entangled states across the three nodes and entanglement swapping through an intermediary node. Our work establishes a key platform for exploring, testing and developing multi-node quantum network protocols and a quantum network control stack.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Duuvian on February 16, 2021, 08:23:07 am
Haha sweet. Did anyone figure out how to reactivate the entanglement? Last I knew triggering it broke the quantum entanglement.

Now that they can do 3's I wonder if the third could be used to reactivate the entanglement on the other two somehow. That would enable quantum radios and later quantum internet.

EDIT2: I called matched pairs of quantum communication devices quantum radios because one is sort of a broadcaster and the other a receiver. I made it up and agree it's not a the best choice of term. I think we should call them Zagfllelligons, surely that will catch on. It IS closer to spelling Zap Brannigans after all, Kif.

Spoiler: image (click to show/hide)

EDIT:

It seems it's come a long way since I last read about it. What I poorly described above are known as Quantum transfer and Quantum Repeaters. I think when I last read about Quantum entanglements, they had just figured out quantum transfer and I thought hey this would be great if they had linked sets of 3 instead of linked pairs because with 3, one could be a control for the other two somehow if that's doable and transfer the entanglement state back once it's broken by triggering the link. I don't kniow how Quantum entanglements actually work with all the math, I just know the basic form and some of the potential applications.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_network

https://www.livescience.com/quantum-memory-entangled-far.html
story describing theory

EDIT3: I also thought I remembered another discovery that tied these together somehow more clearly, but that may be me remembering learning about Quantum Transfer shortly after it was published a while back.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on August 31, 2021, 01:30:08 pm
Tech news?

Maybe. So, anyway... Possibly a fake NFT (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58399338), although my suspicious mind thinks it's possibly the next step up from autodestructive art, really a fake-fake real Banksy, disowned-art as a commentary of some kind after the Girl With A Balloon auction stunt the other year.

(Or, the really devious bit has me wondering if the person 'stung' is at least partly in on the whole thing, and who knows what commodity value this NFT is gaining with such a brand of anti-authenticity/non-providence, given what else passes for collctable value (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58343062) in this emerging market.)

Time will tell if NFTs in general are Tulip Bulbs or Vintage Wine, in the investment stakes... (Or dotCom/sub-primes, compared with (at its best) the similarly blockchained Crypto or good old fashioned gold, depending upon your tastes and interests.) It'll be interesting to know if this NFT in particular moves onwards too.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: Starver on October 30, 2021, 10:18:05 am
(To follow-up on the above, it seems it was a true-scam not a scam-scam, despite my suspicions. Last I heard, before it dropped off the newswires behind other more trivial matters... Anyway, not her now with that in mind, here now with this in mind...)

Tell me, does this (https://youtube.com/watch?v=XnZH4izf_rI) make you feel more or less optimistic about our future relationship with our robot overlords..?

;)
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on October 30, 2021, 10:24:32 am
It will be a disco inferno when they wipe us out
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 08, 2022, 05:05:36 am
Tinder has been ordered to cease and desist it's practice of discriminating based on age.
A research using mystery shoppers in the Netherlands, New Zealand, the US, South Korea, India and Brasil has shown that Tinder Plus charges more fees solely based on age. The tariff difference is largest in the Netherlands, with a subscription costing 3,77 euros for young people, and 21,99 euros for old people, while the services provided are exactly the same.
This is illegal. Discrimination based on age is not allowed.

Ofcourse, don't expect Tinder Plus to drop it's prices. This will probably just mean that young people will now also have to pay 21,99 euros instead of 3,77 euros.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: dragdeler on February 09, 2022, 09:28:48 am
I doubt it. Like insurance doesn't discriminate based on age.



And if it is it's bullshit, having looked into these emtpy faces 6 days a week for a year, I can tell you with confidence who I wouldn't want to serve had I my private business. Like we use to say around here when something is inaccessible: apparantly they have too much money... Well reversly no amount of money would make it worth dealing with the 50-65 crowd.
Title: Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
Post by: martinuzz on February 09, 2022, 09:35:18 am
Insurances are an exception because their liquidity is directly proportional to how long someone is estimated to be able to pay insurance fees.