Post by: Toady One on July 13, 2014, 07:34:43 pm
Development page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments. Specific bugs should be reported on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/), and specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0). Questions and comments about the development page or DF development somewhat more broadly work here, though any contentious topics that lead to derails are discouraged -- there are threads for those too.
If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here. In the past, we've all found the practice of making questions limegreen works pretty well. You do that like this:
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]making questions limegreen[/color]
Here is the last reply from the last thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=100851.msg5470695#msg5470695
The current plan is to continue on with bug-fixing for the next long while. We're still deciding exactly how we'll proceed after that (the link just above has some discussion of job priorities in the first response). We'll update the dev page when more is settled.
Post by: Putnam on July 13, 2014, 07:37:36 pm
Post by: monk12 on July 13, 2014, 07:48:51 pm
PTW
Post by: Mesa on July 13, 2014, 07:54:30 pm
PTW
Post by: Untelligent on July 13, 2014, 07:54:33 pm
Post by: monk12 on July 13, 2014, 07:57:11 pm
What's the difference between lethal combat and no-quarter combat?
Lethal combat means swords have been drawn and the fight can result in serious injury or death, but surrender is an option. No quarter means no surrender.
Post by: Footkerchief on July 13, 2014, 08:01:27 pm
What's the difference between lethal combat and no-quarter combat?
Lethal combat means swords have been drawn and the fight can result in serious injury or death, but surrender is an option. No quarter means no surrender.
Strangely, I've still gotten people to yield during no-quarter combat.
Post by: Toady One on July 13, 2014, 08:03:44 pm
Post by: xaritscin on July 13, 2014, 08:25:48 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on July 13, 2014, 08:26:44 pm
is the colapse of trees a feature or that's gonna be fixed too?, i had to cut several roots from the ground in order to carve my current fortress and this has caused several trees to colapse. if this is a feature maybe it could count as choping trees, so wood is generated from the colapsed ones. i dont have all the details. but should be logical.
Not a feature -- it's on the bug tracker. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6749)
Post by: Xanmyral on July 13, 2014, 09:56:31 pm
Post by: Authority2 on July 13, 2014, 10:29:57 pm
no quarter is for when an AI critter finally realizes that you still attack people that have already yielded, so they don't fall for your tricks again. That and animals.I got an elf to enter no quarter by throwing it out of a tree by the neck. Some goblins too, by stabbing them. Actually, I've hardly ever seen merely nonlethal or lethal combat, it's all just no quarter.
Post by: Talvieno on July 13, 2014, 10:34:00 pm
No quarter happens all the time. I think it's bugged.no quarter is for when an AI critter finally realizes that you still attack people that have already yielded, so they don't fall for your tricks again. That and animals.I got an elf to enter no quarter by throwing it out of a tree by the neck. Some goblins too, by stabbing them. Actually, I've hardly ever seen merely nonlethal or lethal combat, it's all just no quarter.
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on July 13, 2014, 10:54:14 pm
Is there currently any way to determine why people are fighting?
Should people default to no-quarter, or is that a bug?
Should we expect certain people, as a result of the personality rewrite, to engage in spontaneous violence?
(one of the personality description lines is "is given to rough-and-tumble brawling, even to the point of starting fights for no reason")
Post by: Putnam on July 13, 2014, 10:58:07 pm
Post by: Toady One on July 13, 2014, 11:01:40 pm
Post by: Toady One on July 13, 2014, 11:32:31 pm
Quote from: Xanmyral
What determines if someone knows where a site or person is? Does it randomly pick someone from the pot and makes sure they know the spot, or does it keep track of every location that unit knows (i.e.: when you speak to someone if I recall they get realized and stuff is made for them, is this done before hand or only in piecemeal until you've talked to them)? With the rumor mill in full force, would other people learn where a site is from that person given time?
Right now it's pretty simple -- people know areas within ~20 tiles of home, unless they had a traveling position in the past, in which case they can direct you anywhere. I had some memory concerns with detailed site knowledge for hist figs, and the guide system was sort of unsatisfying, so I'm easing into it.
Quote from: Urist Da Vinci
Is there currently any way to determine why people are fighting?
...
Should we expect certain people, as a result of the personality rewrite, to engage in spontaneous violence?
(addressed the no quarter question above) Aside from the occasional aside, it can be impossible to figure out why a fight is happening. That's a reasonably short-term goal. Some people will fight people they don't like if they are properly unbalanced personality-wise, but they don't quite get to the point where they pick fights for fun. I might jump all-in on that trait when it's easier to understand what's going on.
Quote from: Putnam
Can you confirm what the numbers in the ORIENTATION token mean? Research tells me they're probably female_chance:bisexual_chance:male_chance, but I could be wrong (especially in the middle).
It's a by-caste tag, so you'd use it twice for each caste if you want to set all the numbers. <male/female>:<disinterested chance>:<lover-possible chance>:<commitment-possible chance> It uses the chances to put an individual critter into any of the 9 possible configurations. Defaults are, if I remember, 75:20:5 for the same gender, and 5:20:75 for the opposite. That leads to a 3x3 grid, with numbers in it. I'm not invested in the current ones if there are better ideas, but it's probably not all that easy to make a good selection when the categorization is ad hoc anyway. I would have used caste instead of gender to allow more interesting outcomes for many-casted critters, but the optimizations would be a nightmare (already had to jump from 2 to 6 relationship pools...). Of course, all relationships are still eternal, so the lover thing is kind of broken now (sometimes it won't advance beyond lover because one of the parties is not interested in committing, but still neither ever breaks it off, ever... not unrealistic in individual cases, but strange overall).
Oddly enough, we thought retired adventurers would start forming relationships with 0.40.01+, so we wanted to have a better spectrum available, but then we didn't get around to the gen/pre-retirement specification menu, so all adventurers are still tagged with the special "undetermined" flag...
edit: corrected typo 25->20
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on July 14, 2014, 12:22:48 am
Oh, yeah, I forgot -- I also put in no quarter for intruders on sites w/ entities w/ required kill ethics. This was because there's no justice system, so you could just yield to get out of any trouble, making killing you the quick fix. Since the new cultural groups carry some ethics with them, it's possible that's carrying over to markets in some way, but that's really the most charitable interpretation. It's probably something more messed up. If anybody decides to jump in on the side of a fleeing animal, for instance, they'd adopt its no quarter stance, and I know that kind of thing happened in testing (fixed that instance, but who knows). For example, they'd be like "there's a fight (scared animal)! animal? neutral. but I hate that guy! let's jump in on the side of the animal! no quarter? no problem!"
I generated a world where those entities had ACCEPTABLE rather than REQUIRED, and that appears to have stopped the market massacres, at least in the one market I have been to so far.
Post by: Toady One on July 14, 2014, 12:41:57 am
It does raise the question of who the intruder is, because I think it has happened for people in their starting town. But there are guests sometimes.
Post by: Mesa on July 14, 2014, 12:52:24 am
With the fundamentals put by 0.40, kingdom "mode" is not that far away (though I still want my fort mode skills in adventure mode, especially since all the workshops in dwarven forts are a thing)...Though I guess army battles should happen beforehand...
Post by: Footkerchief on July 14, 2014, 01:17:13 am
So what's in the development plans for the nearest future as far as "bigger" features go (after taverns and job priorities and any other fun tidbits)?
With the fundamentals put by 0.40, kingdom "mode" is not that far away (though I still want my fort mode skills in adventure mode, especially since all the workshops in dwarven forts are a thing)...Though I guess army battles should happen beforehand...
There are many big-ticket features on the dev page. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
Post by: MaskedMiner on July 14, 2014, 01:23:43 am
I mean, I started playing DF around 2011 and once I learned to play it there were few bugs that were personally annoying me... Like I discovered from wiki that you can tame exotic animals, including megabeasts, which wasn't really major thing but I considered that to be so awesome feature that I was bugged by being unable to do it.
So later that eventually got fixed, though in meanwhile I was bothered by kobolds getting wiped out by starvation bug, but in my countless fortresses I never managed to capture a megabeast because for some reason only forbidden beasts ever attacked me. And the long play time brought attention to me that world really stopped being alive after world generation. Even adventure mode wasn't that interesting since elf/goblin/dwarf sites didn't no longer exist.
So whats my point? The fact that this version bought back adventure mode sites and that world is now activated has made it so that game has finally gotten to the point where I'm personally completely happy with it and don't feel rush for new versions with other awesome cool features any longer :)
Anyway, I do have some actual questions that I'm sure someone has probably asked before so anybody can please fill me in, I haven't checked forums since 34.'s final update.
Are tamed megabeasts eventually going to be able to breed?
Currently in worlds with long history, bronze colossi tend to get wiped out due to fact they don't breed and in world gen they aren't stronger than other megabeasts. When they are eventually randomized as well and more magic happens, is there going to be new way of getting more of them? Like crazy mages creating new ones or something?
Are eventually civilizations and megabeasts going to have a more priority on what sites they invade? I know that civilizations make war because of torture and treatment of plants and such, but they do seem to be rather harsh on kobolds. Currently kobolds seem to get wiped out since they don't breed much and one army or megabeast is enough to wipe out all of them out. I'd imagine that civilizations and megabeasts wouldn't really bother kobolds much due to fact kobolds aren't much of a threat(well, I guess dragon might want to kill them if they steal from dragon, but yeah otherwise they get wiped out to extinction before year 200 so I never get to see them on medium history on fortress mode), but yeah. Kobolds are about same amount of threat and as bandit camps and I don't think bandit camps get wiped out by civilizations or megabeasts. Or at least they keep popping up more often than kobolds. Even besides improving kobolds' survival chances, I'd imagine young megabeasts would be more careful than adult size ones.
(BTW, really funny that kobolds sometime steal divine metal treasures from vaults :') They have become master thieves)
Vaults' residents make me wonder if demons are eventually going to have multiple randomized types as well(I guess they might already have since all goblin civilization demons seem to be humanoid)? I heard 2d version had three types of demons with one being weak, one being lusty tentacle monster and one being boss type, do demons have that type thing going on or are they going to eventually?
EDIT: Umm, how to make those questions glow same green as you guys do? <_<; Thanks in advance Edit: Nevermind figured it out
In adventure mode sometimes when I start a game there is "Bandit led by (x) are harassing people on the street!" thing going on, but after killing all bandits and even after going to their leader and killing him, they are still saying that. Is there currently a way to resolve that "quest" so that people on the site stop saying they are being harassed?
Is future versions going to have bandit leaders with combat abilities again? Currently they seem to be lords and masters without armor and only a knife. Also, why do some demon masters run at sight of adventurer and others one shot kill me?
Are we eventually going to be able to search in legend mode by species/race?
Post by: WillowLuman on July 14, 2014, 01:48:59 am
Post by: samanato on July 14, 2014, 02:22:35 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SmileyMan on July 14, 2014, 02:24:29 am
Right - brown-nosing out of the way, now for the questions (with apologies for the suggestion-lite bits after):
Are there plans to do more with yielded opponents, such as taking them prisoner?
I'd love to march into the bandit camp that's been harassing a town, dispatch the henchmen and then drag the leader back to the lord and see him put in the dungeons while I receive my rewards.
Will an equivalent of the old quest markers ever make a comeback, or do we have to keep track of destinations by ourselves now?
Maybe a system where certain topics in the Q screen could be 'marked' by the player, and then the relevant sites could be highlighted in the nearby sites list.
Post by: CypherLH on July 14, 2014, 02:43:48 am
Do you think the current conversations between NPC's can often be a bit too spammy, any plans to tone it down at all?
Is the current "rumor" system working as intended? I ask because it seems like NPC's have a tendency to not care much when you inform them of completed tasks. Not sure if the rumor system is broken or if the NPC reactions to the things are just very subtle now.
Any chance we'll get any significant new features or functionality in the short-term, perhaps appended to the end of the bug fix cycle?
Post by: Lemunde on July 14, 2014, 02:58:11 am
Post by: samanato on July 14, 2014, 03:02:34 am
Post by: Lemunde on July 14, 2014, 03:07:39 am
There seems to be an overabundance of wood even in savannas and deserts with cacti. Should this be balanced, in your opinion, or is it intended to make wood an easier accessed resource? As of now, it doesn't go with the elven diplomat dialogue, since part of the challenge of a tree fell quota is not getting a hundred elven bowmen at your doorstep, and the new trees kind of nullify that.
I could still see that happening if someone made an above ground fort out of wood. Personally I like the larger quantities. It's more realistic and it's nice to see something that makes the game easier instead of harder for a change.
Post by: fricy on July 14, 2014, 03:32:26 am
Post by: thvaz on July 14, 2014, 03:50:29 am
There seems to be an overabundance of wood even in savannas and deserts with cacti. Should this be balanced, in your opinion, or is it intended to make wood an easier accessed resource? As of now, it doesn't go with the elven diplomat dialogue, since part of the challenge of a tree fell quota is not getting a hundred elven bowmen at your doorstep, and the new trees kind of nullify that.
I could still see that happening if someone made an above ground fort out of wood. Personally I like the larger quantities. It's more realistic and it's nice to see something that makes the game easier instead of harder for a change.
I would like to see a pre-processing of the wood though. I don't like how they just "explode".
Toady, there is any time frame to resume work on the night creatures? Vampires and Werecreatures aren't working well in Adventurer mode, and I remember you wanted to include some more.
Post by: therahedwig on July 14, 2014, 05:30:25 am
Are conversation system improvements on the short-term todo list? (could really use some sort of filtering/sorting options) I would apply this same question to the Log system as well, it can start to contain A LOT of stuff. Would be nice to be able to flag items or selectively suppress certain items, etc.You can already filter the dialogue list: each question has a couple of keywords, and if you type those in at any moment during perusing the dialogue list, you can filter the list.
Quote
The more I look at this sentence, the more redundant it feels.
Any chance we'll get any significant new features or functionality in the short-term, perhaps appended to the end of the bug fix cycle?
That said, Toady's already mentioned he wanted to get the fruit harvesting in for dwarf mode as soon as possible. And he's always done a couple of small releases after a really big release like this.
Edit: Btw, I want to mention that the new morale system is going to make vaguely realistic horses hilarious: They're flight animals and a large part of horseback riding is paying attention to the comfort of the horse.
Post by: Knight Otu on July 14, 2014, 05:35:45 am
What happened to the [POWER] token?As far as I can tell, it still works as it is supposed to be. Powers simply seem to have fewer reliable targets now. (That said, there's an old power bug I should go and check.)
Also, everyone should try to remember - "Ever/Eventually is a long time", "It's planned, but there's no timeline", and "It would be nice to have, but there's no timeline." :P
Post by: Talvieno on July 14, 2014, 08:12:11 am
When can we expect the features from fruit and fruit bearing plants to be fully implemented? At present gathering fruit bearing plants only gathers the plants which are essentially useless on their own. From looking over the RAWs one can deduce that there's something else that needs to be done with these plants to make their fruits usable. In the short term modders can simply go through and adjust the tags on these plants to let you gather their fruit like any other kind of plant, but I'd still be interested in knowing what the ultimate goals of this feature are.He's said elsewhere that it would be soon. It'll either be during the bugfixing cycle or the next major update. He's stated he plans on making the brewables make more sense, and that he wanted to get the plants (and trees) to be a little more realistic - in fact, he's even said that if we want to submit changes of our own (provided they're correct), we can. I can't link you to exactly where he said that (not a good day for me), but it was in response to a question I asked, and in a FotF reply.
Post by: Vorox on July 14, 2014, 08:33:50 am
Post by: cephalo on July 14, 2014, 08:55:21 am
Of course, all relationships are still eternal, so the lover thing is kind of broken now (sometimes it won't advance beyond lover because one of the parties is not interested in committing, but still neither ever breaks it off, ever... not unrealistic in individual cases, but strange overall).
Hmm, this becomes a major issue when you're talking about royal succession.
Do entities still need to be married (committed) to produce children?
EDIT: Now that I think about it, it's not that bad, but it does seem like a very high chance of relationship failures ending royal lines.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on July 14, 2014, 09:59:53 am
Post by: Jakob on July 14, 2014, 10:02:59 am
Post by: Footkerchief on July 14, 2014, 10:06:23 am
Are tamed megabeasts eventually going to be able to breed?
Megabeast reproduction is on the dev page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html).
Currently in worlds with long history, bronze colossi tend to get wiped out due to fact they don't breed and in world gen they aren't stronger than other megabeasts. When they are eventually randomized as well and more magic happens, is there going to be new way of getting more of them? Like crazy mages creating new ones or something?
Probably yes:
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html
Rainseeker: Speaking of the bronze colossuses; could it possibly be that you have it be connected together with a bunch of bolts or something that could fall off and that's the way you could kill it even if it's solid.
Toady: I guess one of the things to consider is why is it there? Was it made by somebody?
Capntastic: Some sort of supernatural intervention.
Toady: I don't remember anymore, but was the one in Jason and the Argonauts made by Hephaestus or something? So created by a forge god type thing, right? Then there's the idea; could they have been made by old dwarves, then you have the problem of, well, can your dwarves make them? And then you get into the whole automaton segue into steampunk and so on. Then there's just them being ... or are they some kind of bronzey spirit of nature type thing, that's just kind of wondering around, causing trouble.
Ampersand: I don't know if you've ever played Morrowind or anything, but in the lore of Morrowind or Daggerfall even, the dwarves did in fact make a gigantic mecha.
Toady: Yeah, they had all kinds of steam automatons, right? I remember ... no I won that game, I think, if you're talking about the big statue at the end. So there's a notion of dwarves there, just ... there's something about steam [that] bothers me, I don't know why. Having all these steam powered ...
Ampersand: I don't think their giant machine was steam powered, it was part of Lorkhan ...
Toady: Oh yeah that's right, there's magic and stuff, and we don't have a whole lot of that, but we should, yeah. I don't remember what our thoughts on automatons were completely; I believe that having something like an intelligent automaton walking around would be an artifact type situation.
Are eventually civilizations and megabeasts going to have a more priority on what sites they invade? I know that civilizations make war because of torture and treatment of plants and such, but they do seem to be rather harsh on kobolds. Currently kobolds seem to get wiped out since they don't breed much and one army or megabeast is enough to wipe out all of them out. I'd imagine that civilizations and megabeasts wouldn't really bother kobolds much due to fact kobolds aren't much of a threat(well, I guess dragon might want to kill them if they steal from dragon, but yeah otherwise they get wiped out to extinction before year 200 so I never get to see them on medium history on fortress mode), but yeah. Kobolds are about same amount of threat and as bandit camps and I don't think bandit camps get wiped out by civilizations or megabeasts. Or at least they keep popping up more often than kobolds. Even besides improving kobolds' survival chances, I'd imagine young megabeasts would be more careful than adult size ones.
Yes, the current invasions are an unfinished placeholder.
Vaults' residents make me wonder if demons are eventually going to have multiple randomized types as well(I guess they might already have since all goblin civilization demons seem to be humanoid)? I heard 2d version had three types of demons with one being weak, one being lusty tentacle monster and one being boss type, do demons have that type thing going on or are they going to eventually?
They're already randomized. (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Demon)
Is future versions going to have bandit leaders with combat abilities again? Currently they seem to be lords and masters without armor and only a knife. Also, why do some demon masters run at sight of adventurer and others one shot kill me?
Yes, villains are unfinished (dev page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)). Cowardly demons is a bug.
Are we eventually going to be able to search in legend mode by species/race?
Most likely yes, but reminder that suggestions go in the Suggestions forum.
Are there plans to do more with yielded opponents, such as taking them prisoner?
I'd love to march into the bandit camp that's been harassing a town, dispatch the henchmen and then drag the leader back to the lord and see him put in the dungeons while I receive my rewards.
Yup (this all applies to NPCs too):
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Justice
Surrender to those seeking you
You have to follow orders to remain in surrendered state (generally to go to a location or drop your weapon)
When you make a command that follows an order, there should be an option to skip ahead to stages of the journey (such as to a dungeon or halfway through the journey back if you want to attempt to escape from your captor)
If you leave the surrendered state, you should be attacked until you surrender again, though force should not necessarily be lethal immediately
Punishment
Initial beatings
Cutting off some small body part
Branding (requires wounds to support art image from crafts)
Stocks, buried to neck, tied to post
Caned, whipped, hammered
Executions
Imprisonment (until there are ways to escape, might as well retire the character, at which point rescue might be possible by a subsequent character)
Are conversation system improvements on the short-term todo list? (could really use some sort of filtering/sorting options) I would apply this same question to the Log system as well, it can start to contain A LOT of stuff. Would be nice to be able to flag items or selectively suppress certain items, etc.
One was already mentioned:
Quote from: Urist Da VinciIs there currently any way to determine why people are fighting?
Aside from the occasional aside, it can be impossible to figure out why a fight is happening. That's a reasonably short-term goal.
Any chance we'll get any significant new features or functionality in the short-term, perhaps appended to the end of the bug fix cycle?
There will be new features after bug fixing as usual, but the length of the bug fix cycle is somewhat TBD, depending how broken the game is.
Will the future functions of civ leaders apply to players that are civ leaders?
Where possible, yes:
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
AFFILIATION ARC: You should be able to rise to the top of an entity (civilization, town, etc.) in adventure mode. While the full set of responsibilities that would entail will have to wait, it should at least be possible to attain this status for the first version. You should be able to do things for individuals. This could earn you favors from sleeping in their home and food gifts all the way to a marriage offer. There can be smaller entities like bandits and cults which could offer more unsavory tasks for similar privileges (steal, kill, kidnap, etc.). Can earn right to sleep in the large hall in town if you've become affiliated with them, but vagrancy needs to be punished and the camping must be harsher before this is meaningful.
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Your followers
List of followers and ability to look at their information
Being able to take along aggrieved people for a time if you are seeking justice for them
Reputation with entity (see below) allowing for easier followers
Being able to issue orders to attack targets
It should depend, but orders to kill civilians, especially people they know, should result in various negative reactions, possibly including hostility and violence -- your behavior should cause these reactions as well
Being able to issue orders to distract and lead off targets
Being able to issue orders to stay at a site for general purposes (defense, caring for livestock, etc.)
Depending on loyalty, they should not follow unreasonable orders for long (like guarding a random wilderness location)
Expansion of personality system to support more value-judgment-based properties such as bravery vs. cowardice/apathy/recklessness
Better morale failures
Having your own entity name for your group if you have a high enough profile (or before that, but nobody will care)
Toady, there is any time frame to resume work on the night creatures? Vampires and Werecreatures aren't working well in Adventurer mode, and I remember you wanted to include some more.
Vampire issues are on the tracker. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6547)
Do migrating armies show up in fortress mode? Is it possible to create a fortress that intercepts any armies heading towards your civilization?
Fort Mode only gets targeted invasions for now, but you'll get passers-by later.
Are there plans to fix the piles of people in forts and such this version? It tends to be an FPS killer which makes it very hard to play.
It's on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6804), and yeah it's a bad one.
Post by: XArgon on July 14, 2014, 10:08:41 am
First of all, thanks for the great work, Toady! :)
Also,
Now that climbing is implemented, is a landscape rewrite planned any time soon, such as having some steep cliffs generated without ramps?
Post by: Footkerchief on July 14, 2014, 10:14:15 am
Also,
Now that climbing is implemented, is a landscape rewrite planned any time soon, such as having some steep cliffs generated without ramps?
No specific timeline, but they'll be back:
Quote from: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=100851.msg3670528#msg3670528
I'd like to have high cliffs back, and climbing was the main obstacle there, but I need to continue to be a bit careful there. The old situation with cliffs everywhere was still bad -- might have to wait for the 3D veins and landforms and things. I like ladders and ropes... I don't even recollect at this point (burned out as I am since this is the last answer I'm typing up) what the block was for getting rope ladders in before, so I'll have to see what happens there.
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html
When cliffs come back - when we get a notion of a cliff as an external feature - the problem with cliffs coming back was that you didn't have a way to climb, they were everywhere and you didn't have a way to climb in adventure mode. But cliffs can start to come back first probably as external features, just like the lava and so on, like lava and bottomless pits used to be these features underground, there are going to be special features above ground where you have a bit more interesting things that it also can have a handle on so it doesn't just put them everywhere and at that time you can start to think about a cave entrance that looks more interesting. The problem was that there's no real sheer faces to make a cave entrance look more like you'd expect a cave entrance to look like, so it just has to dig down, right? It has to dig in the dirt until it gets a cave entrance for you, which is really disappointing because you go and they all look like these little pits. So it's something we want to change but it's something that has an intermediate step that needs to go in first and I'm not sure when the aboveground thing ... when we put in things like canyons and mesas and other interesting constructions aboveground.
Post by: MaskedMiner on July 14, 2014, 10:50:53 am
Like there seems to be three basic categories for spoilery vault guardian monsters :P The animal like one, the humanoid one and huge monster one. Are there going to be multiple different demon categories or are they going to be same "Humanoid goblin leaders and ones you can unleash by digging adamantinum are just as random as forbidden beasts" so far? Like, I remember demons from hell being anything from salt six legged anteaters to floating cloud with wings to humanoid demons like goblin leader ones.
But thanks for answering the other questions :)
Post by: Footkerchief on July 14, 2014, 11:02:12 am
I meant if there are going to be MULTIPLE different randomized demon types
Like there seems to be three basic categories for spoilery vault guardian monsters :P The animal like one, the humanoid one and huge monster one. Are there going to be multiple different demon categories or are they going to be same "Humanoid goblin leaders and ones you can unleash by digging adamantinum are just as random as forbidden beasts" so far? Like, I remember demons from hell being anything from salt six legged anteaters to floating cloud with wings to humanoid demons like goblin leader ones.
But thanks for answering the other questions :)
All the randomized creature stuff is unfinished, so that kind of change is definitely fair game. However, I don't think Toady has specific plans yet, and I don't think he'd spoil them if he did.
Post by: thvaz on July 14, 2014, 11:02:23 am
And there is my doubt about the rest of the night creatures that were cut out for the 32.01 release.
Post by: MaskedMiner on July 14, 2014, 11:05:21 am
I meant if there are going to be MULTIPLE different randomized demon types
Like there seems to be three basic categories for spoilery vault guardian monsters :P The animal like one, the humanoid one and huge monster one. Are there going to be multiple different demon categories or are they going to be same "Humanoid goblin leaders and ones you can unleash by digging adamantinum are just as random as forbidden beasts" so far? Like, I remember demons from hell being anything from salt six legged anteaters to floating cloud with wings to humanoid demons like goblin leader ones.
But thanks for answering the other questions :)
All the randomized creature stuff is unfinished, so that kind of change is definitely fair game. However, I don't think Toady has specific plans yet, and I don't think he'd spoil them if he did.
Ah, ok, I see... Well, thanks for fast answers :)
Post by: Puzzlemaker on July 14, 2014, 02:48:44 pm
Do migrating armies show up in fortress mode? Is it possible to create a fortress that intercepts any armies heading towards your civilization?
Fort Mode only gets targeted invasions for now, but you'll get passers-by later.
What if you make a natural blockade, and the only way through is through your fort? I set up a map like that, I haven't gotten around to testing it though.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=8934
There is a spot you can build that's a landbridge between the goblin and dwarf civilizations, the only way through. Would the game just crash, or would they just magically phase through?
Post by: mnjiman on July 14, 2014, 04:26:54 pm
To make a comparison, in .34.11 I was able to make 15 bedrooms (bed and a door 2x2), a small dining room, a workshop area, a farm and be able to produce about 1k value in good before the first Liaison+Traders came in fall (from what I remember). My dwarves would be able to reach about adept-expert in certain skills.
In 40.03, I have made 50 bedrooms (bed and a door 2x2), a large dining room, fully built workshop area, a fully connected kitchen area, farm and proper ramp accesses, and was able to make 5.5k in good for trades. My dwarves have already reached Master and High Master in certain area's.
I do agree that this change was in the right direction, however I do feel that I am progressing too quickly now.
Post by: Footkerchief on July 14, 2014, 04:32:47 pm
Is the following observation a intentional or unintentional change: In Fortress mode the speed in which the calendar time passes seemed to have slowed down. In addition to this, the rate at which dwarves learn their skills seemed to have increased greatly.
To make a comparison, in .34.11 I was able to make 15 bedrooms (bed and a door 2x2), a small dining room, a workshop area, a farm and be able to produce about 1k value in good before the first Liaison+Traders came in fall (from what I remember). My dwarves would be able to reach about adept-expert in certain skills.
In 40.03, I have made 50 bedrooms (bed and a door 2x2), a large dining room, fully built workshop area, a fully connected kitchen area, farm and proper ramp accesses, and was able to make 5.5k in good for trades. My dwarves have already reached Master and High Master in certain area's.
I do agree that this change was in the right direction, however I do feel that I am progressing too quickly now.
Related bug report here. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7111)
Post by: Cobbler89 on July 14, 2014, 05:01:43 pm
Mind you, I'm not saying "homosexuality shouldn't be in the game," (although, honestly, I like the fact that I can play Dwarf Fortress without usually being reminded of current cultural conflicts). I'm just saying things in the game should be interesting beyond satisfying some people's need to see their notion of equality championed in game design and should not be jarringly modern considering the supposed, fuzzy cultural cutoff date. And, by extension, there are things that could be a lot more directly and immediately interesting that are almost impossible to do in a way that doesn't fit the cultural setting. Things that shaped the plot of The Iliad and the Norse Sagas. Such as concubines and ye olde ritual blood brotherhood.
Post by: Footkerchief on July 14, 2014, 05:16:20 pm
Are there plans to add concubinage? And are dwarves ever going to become blood brothers or things like that? I am pretty sure these would both be more historically fitting to the pseudo-historical fantasy setting than the (to my knowledge) largely modern thing of having homosexual relationships that are treated as basically the same as heterosexual relationships. I am also pretty sure they would contribute more to the gameplay than simply causing there to be some sterile couples, and would contribute more to the forums than simply causing the denizens to argue over homophobia.
Mind you, I'm not saying "homosexuality shouldn't be in the game," (although, honestly, I like the fact that I can play Dwarf Fortress without usually being reminded of current cultural conflicts). I'm just saying things in the game should be interesting beyond satisfying some people's need to see their notion of equality championed in game design and should not be jarringly modern considering the supposed, fuzzy cultural cutoff date. And, by extension, there are things that could be a lot more directly and immediately interesting that are almost impossible to do in a way that doesn't fit the cultural setting. Things that shaped the plot of The Iliad and the Norse Sagas. Such as concubines and ye olde ritual blood brotherhood.
Suggestions belong in the Suggestions forum, where there are already a number of related threads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=search2;params=eJwtzDEOgCAQRNG72FhbeB4CyyRgkDULaEw4vIuh-_OKsf62meD72re-dCejdq0S-DHE55VQoTaouQNUDef0TmGpxkfR5VFoii5Bwn88CFYoKBJnai5mlA_LDi71).
Post by: fricy on July 14, 2014, 05:31:03 pm
Are there plans to add concubinage?Masterwork mod had concubines, but cut later on Toady's request, so I think it's highly unlikely they'll ever be added.
Post by: Alev on July 14, 2014, 05:34:36 pm
Post by: Cobbler89 on July 14, 2014, 05:48:35 pm
Post by: sal880612m on July 14, 2014, 06:00:36 pm
Will minecarts ever be viable as a method of transit?
Post by: Alev on July 14, 2014, 06:03:20 pm
Hopefully this isn't too suggestion-y:Probably planned, though I can't find anything in the DFtalks.
Will minecarts ever be viable as a method of transit?
Post by: lue on July 14, 2014, 06:03:28 pm
Are there plans to add concubinage?Masterwork mod had concubines, but cut later on Toady's request, so I think it's highly unlikely they'll ever be added.
Really? Seems weird that Toady would interfere with a mod, so [citation needed], if you could.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 14, 2014, 06:03:44 pm
Right now they're all pretty much set for any season with short growth durations that allow you to get a crop every season (or more), while the underground plants all have seasons, which doesn't make much sense.
Post by: Putnam on July 14, 2014, 06:07:11 pm
Are there plans to add concubinage?Masterwork mod had concubines, but cut later on Toady's request, so I think it's highly unlikely they'll ever be added.
Really? Seems weird that Toady would interfere with a mod, so [citation needed], if you could.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125672.msg4230754#msg4230754
Post by: Uristsonsonson on July 14, 2014, 06:24:56 pm
Maybe Toady plays Masterwork? Oh great Toady, which mods do you use when you're just playing for fun?Are there plans to add concubinage?Masterwork mod had concubines, but cut later on Toady's request, so I think it's highly unlikely they'll ever be added.
Really? Seems weird that Toady would interfere with a mod, so [citation needed], if you could.
Post by: Putnam on July 14, 2014, 06:45:35 pm
Post by: lue on July 14, 2014, 06:52:07 pm
Are there plans to add concubinage?Masterwork mod had concubines, but cut later on Toady's request, so I think it's highly unlikely they'll ever be added.
Really? Seems weird that Toady would interfere with a mod, so [citation needed], if you could.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125672.msg4230754#msg4230754
Thanks, Putnam. It's a shame that extramarital sex is for whatever reason too controversial to exist though. (However, I don't care enough to press this issue any more than I already may have.)
Post by: Putnam on July 14, 2014, 07:11:35 pm
Post by: lue on July 14, 2014, 07:25:48 pm
Calling concubinage "extramarital sex" is like calling slavery "honest work".
Forgive me if I'm just being ignorant here, but from what I understand about concubinage (which isn't much, I'll admit), "honest work" is disingenuous, while "extramarital sex" isn't, so I don't get the analogy.
Post by: Uristsonsonson on July 14, 2014, 07:39:03 pm
Post by: monk12 on July 14, 2014, 07:49:22 pm
Calling concubinage "extramarital sex" is like calling slavery "honest work".
Forgive me if I'm just being ignorant here, but from what I understand about concubinage (which isn't much, I'll admit), "honest work" is disingenuous, while "extramarital sex" isn't, so I don't get the analogy.
Bearing in mind that most places which practice concubinage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubine) tend to treat women like chattel, a concubine is like a wife with fewer rights (civil, human, or otherwise.) Depending on the culture it's somewhere between "I'd marry her if I could" and "sex slave," more often on the sexual exploitation end of that spectrum.
Or to put it another way, it may be normal for a multitude of cultures, but only because it is also normal for those cultures to broadly designate large swathes of the population as inferior in various ways.
Post by: Cobbler89 on July 14, 2014, 07:56:05 pm
And in some cases it could be worse than usual: according to Greek legend, Jason actually married Medea in her homeland of Colchis, but when they returned to Jason's home in Greece he claimed she was just a concubine -- and guess who Jason's kinsmen believed. It was particularly stupid of him considering, again according to legend, Medea was a mighty sorcerous (and he knew this because that's how she'd basically saved his neck previously!), who retaliated by poisoning Jason's second wife and their son, burning their castle to the ground and taking off on a dragon to find some other throne to weasel her way into (where she later shows up in Theseus's story trying to poison him so she can inherit his father's throne instead, but I'm getting off topic now...).
Although I do think The Iliad and the legend of Jason and Medea are pretty good examples of how it doesn't have to be about the sex for concubinage to contribute drama, but then, I'm also the guy who keeps being reminded of Homer's battle sequences whenever he reads over and over that "the copper spear strikes the goblin hammerman in the left lowered arm, tearing the muscle and tearing the fat!"
(Apologies again for dragging this off topic, though I do hope I can at least be moderately edifying/interesting while the discussion is out here... reading all that mythology has got to help me with something...)
Post by: sal880612m on July 14, 2014, 08:08:54 pm
Post by: Toady One on July 14, 2014, 08:29:59 pm
Quote from: MaskedMiner
In adventure mode sometimes when I start a game there is "Bandit led by (x) are harassing people on the street!" thing going on, but after killing all bandits and even after going to their leader and killing him, they are still saying that. Is there currently a way to resolve that "quest" so that people on the site stop saying they are being harassed?
I had a note to fix up the rumor, and it slipped near the end when it got complicated. It should end up being part of this process. There's some trickiness to getting some forms of rumors to win-out over other forms, especially when they are half-handled and so on.
Quote from: MaskedMiner
(more random demons?)
As with night creatures and the new critters and another category we haven't even started, we have a scheme more or less decided, based in most cases on the EGA colors. No clue when we'll get there.
Quote from: HugoLuman
What happened to the [POWER] token?
I don't actually remember, since it was an early change. If it's gone, it was probably an effect of the new stuff. Is the issue that certain megabeasts no longer take over sites for mods? I could revisit that. I think the takeover code still exists.
Quote from: samanato
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: SmileyMan
Are there plans to do more with yielded opponents, such as taking them prisoner?
I'd love to march into the bandit camp that's been harassing a town, dispatch the henchmen and then drag the leader back to the lord and see him put in the dungeons while I receive my rewards.
Footkerchief linked the most relevant portion from dev -- there was also some stuff there about tying and gagging and interrogating (under the hero role oddly enough) that are relevant. Returning a bandit for glory or bounty is one of the things we wanted to do with that role.
Quote from: SmileyMan
Will an equivalent of the old quest markers ever make a comeback, or do we have to keep track of destinations by ourselves now?
Maybe a system where certain topics in the Q screen could be 'marked' by the player, and then the relevant sites could be highlighted in the nearby sites list.
Yeah, there's a line to walk between forced quest/journal entries and the complete aimlessness we have now. We were considering things along your lines, with a way to mark topics, either when they are said or from Q.
Quote from: CypherLH
Do you think the current conversations between NPC's can often be a bit too spammy, any plans to tone it down at all?
Is the current "rumor" system working as intended? I ask because it seems like NPC's have a tendency to not care much when you inform them of completed tasks. Not sure if the rumor system is broken or if the NPC reactions to the things are just very subtle now.
It has been toned down, he he he. It was even worse when you could hear everything represented by a blue !. But yeah, it's still pretty bad in crowded rooms.
The rumors aren't the problem right now as much as not being able to see your reputation levels easily, and certain of those might not be affecting all the reps they should. A major thing is that instead of "it was inevitable", they should report any reputation effects. I tried to put your top rep in the greeting, but it might take something as cheesy as asking "what do you think of me?" to get enough information.
Quote from: samanato
There seems to be an overabundance of wood even in savannas and deserts with cacti. Should this be balanced, in your opinion, or is it intended to make wood an easier accessed resource? As of now, it doesn't go with the elven diplomat dialogue, since part of the challenge of a tree fell quota is not getting a hundred elven bowmen at your doorstep, and the new trees kind of nullify that.
It was supposed to be easier to get wood earlier, and then have that be balanced with the regrowth speed. I don't know that the saplings are currently growing properly (they were at some point, but we know how that goes), but it takes a long time to get those old-growth forests you are chewing through in the beginning. The elves should definitely be changed now. It would be funny if they singled out specific old trees or parts of the map.
Quote from: thvaz
Toady, there is any time frame to resume work on the night creatures? Vampires and Werecreatures aren't working well in Adventurer mode, and I remember you wanted to include some more.
...
It is more like the fact that they don't try do disguise themselves, and the fact that werecreatures are useless in adventurer mode right now. The initial ideas Toady had when he started implementing them were much more interesting.
And there is my doubt about the rest of the night creatures that were cut out for the 32.01 release.
He he he, we should remember how dangerous it is for us to disappear on night creature tangents. We certainly still want to do them, but we try to show restraint. The vampire/werewolf problem might be higher priority, especially as broken as werewolves are. Now that the world is bumping around, it might be worth it to try to let werewolves live in towns and see how they go. Having a cottage suddenly go nuts might be fun, though properly we'd want to think about the counter-measures being taken or whatever allowed them to survive to that point.
Quote from: cephalo
Do entities still need to be married (committed) to produce children?
Yeah, that part is all the same. Lovers is a hand-holdey term until further developments ensue.
Quote from: Jakob
Are there plans to fix the piles of people in forts and such this version? It tends to be an FPS killer which makes it very hard to play.
Footkerchief linked the bug on the tracker, and I fixed it today (in two and hopefully all forms -- there's lots of pop code).
Quote from: Puzzlemaker
Do migrating armies show up in fortress mode? Is it possible to create a fortress that intercepts any armies heading towards your civilization?
...
What if you make a natural blockade, and the only way through is through your fort? I set up a map like that, I haven't gotten around to testing it though. (map) There is a spot you can build that's a landbridge between the goblin and dwarf civilizations, the only way through. Would the game just crash, or would they just magically phase through?
If I remember, they phase. It was easier to handle the pathing/connectivity AI that way. Ideally, you'd be fully a part of the world. The only real problems I recall with that is the game-related one of early difficult attacks, and having the AI consider your intervening existence (they don't think much about intervening sites now because there are no battles). Maybe people should just have to eat those attacks now. The armies do lose time entering your fort's time warp, but that's not a huge deal if they are just crossing the space and exiting the other side.
Quote from: mnjiman
Is the following observation a intentional or unintentional change: In Fortress mode the speed in which the calendar time passes seemed to have slowed down. In addition to this, the rate at which dwarves learn their skills seemed to have increased greatly.
To make a comparison, in .34.11 I was able to make 15 bedrooms (bed and a door 2x2), a small dining room, a workshop area, a farm and be able to produce about 1k value in good before the first Liaison+Traders came in fall (from what I remember). My dwarves would be able to reach about adept-expert in certain skills.
In 40.03, I have made 50 bedrooms (bed and a door 2x2), a large dining room, fully built workshop area, a fully connected kitchen area, farm and proper ramp accesses, and was able to make 5.5k in good for trades. My dwarves have already reached Master and High Master in certain area's.
I do agree that this change was in the right direction, however I do feel that I am progressing too quickly now.
Footkerchief linked the bug report -- it's mostly the speed split and larger AI rewrite, I think, and every job is possibly affected, possibly 10x where I didn't catch the wait time. Where things have gotten out of whack, we need to nudge them back, and it could be a lengthy process. There's a generic "job" move that functions as a throttle for job completion, but there are places that avoid that (I think liaison meetings for example go at warp speed now -- not that people seem to mind that).
Quote from: Mephansteras
On a related question about plants: Are there plans to go through and give the various aboveground plants more realistic seasons and growth durations, as well as reasonable harvest seasons for things like fruit?
Right now they're all pretty much set for any season with short growth durations that allow you to get a crop every season (or more), while the underground plants all have seasons, which doesn't make much sense.
Yeah, I'd like to have the seasons be correct, where seasons even exist, and the biomes are also too non-specific in most cases. Right now it's a combination of research/data-entry time combined with not having farming finalized and so worrying about wasting mine (or anybody's) time entering info. I haven't gotten close enough to tackling farming think about how the plant issue is going to be handled.
Okay so while Toady is clearly against concubinage, is he in general against the idea of having a some sort of extramarital consort/mistress that could lead to things like illegitimate heirs and other such intrigues?
It was a while ago, but I really just set the child board up on the condition that none of the really explicit material be in there (I originally had the body part mods in mind). Meph decided what was in and out on his own, but I can't say I disagree (I don't have a definite opinion on this specific case, since I don't know the implementation, but I would have agreed with removing anything like sexual slavery). I'm not against adding extramarital stuff or other variety/antics/etc. If, when break-ups and so on are added to the relationship code, DF ends up like a reality show, that could be for the best.
Post by: Cobbler89 on July 14, 2014, 08:54:57 pm
Post by: lue on July 14, 2014, 09:21:28 pm
It seemed like my misunderstanding was thinking that concubinage was more consensual that it appears to be. Shows you what you get for thinking in the abstract sometimes :) (my working definition was just "institutionalized affairs for the powerful", without any of the typical context).
Just because it's been on my mind for the past day or so now: How did you decide upon CP-437 as the encoding of choice for the game? And do you still think it's a decent choice? (OK, I admit, maaaybe I just want to see a bunch of U+1F3F0 EUROPEAN CASTLE icons on the world map some day, and come across some U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW in the snowier hamlets... :P )
Post by: Scruiser on July 14, 2014, 09:35:34 pm
Post by: King Mir on July 14, 2014, 09:39:14 pm
Lovers is a hand-holdey term until further developments ensue.There's a joke to be made here, you know it. I don't know what the joke is, but it needs to be made.
Post by: Alev on July 14, 2014, 09:44:30 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on July 14, 2014, 09:45:02 pm
Lovers is a hand-holdey term until further developments ensue.There's a joke to be made here, you know it. I don't know what the joke is, but it needs to be made.
I was just gonna say "As it ever was."
Post by: samanato on July 14, 2014, 09:59:34 pm
- How do you plan to rework the tree-cap diplomacy of the elves? Singling out one particular tree and not telling you would be pretty !!FUN!!ny (and a little faeish, which I've always pictured elves as being), but would go into luck-based mission territory imo. Or is it the whole civ and the culture, that are changing?
- Are the expanded list of goals planned to be used in more secrets? (they don't seem to work now)
Post by: cephalo on July 14, 2014, 10:32:07 pm
It seemed like my misunderstanding was thinking that concubinage was more consensual that it appears to be. Shows you what you get for thinking in the abstract sometimes :) (my working definition was just "institutionalized affairs for the powerful", without any of the typical context).
Hmm, for some cultures, the English word concubine (as it would be translated) actually denotes a highly respected position for someone who would otherwise be low status. I think in some Asian cultures these women were supposed to help bear heirs for the king, and they lived very well compared to their non-concubine peers. Probably not strictly consensual, but monarchy is often a situation where 'everyone' was basically a slave to the monarch, no matter who you were.
Post by: samanato on July 14, 2014, 10:40:10 pm
Post by: mnjiman on July 14, 2014, 11:36:16 pm
Post by: thvaz on July 15, 2014, 01:55:15 am
The werecreatures would be fun if after a rampage you had to discover the responsible by tracking it back to his home, in case you weren't present at the moment.
Post by: golemgunk on July 15, 2014, 02:10:20 am
Quote
The elves should definitely be changed now. It would be funny if they singled out specific old trees or parts of the map.
That would be neat, I can see an elf diplomat adopting a tree, giving it a name like the ones in their sites, and holding your fort responsible if it gets felled.
Post by: Cobbler89 on July 15, 2014, 06:06:50 am
It seemed like my misunderstanding was thinking that concubinage was more consensual that it appears to be. Shows you what you get for thinking in the abstract sometimes :) (my working definition was just "institutionalized affairs for the powerful", without any of the typical context).
Hmm, for some cultures, the English word concubine (as it would be translated) actually denotes a highly respected position for someone who would otherwise be low status. I think in some Asian cultures these women were supposed to help bear heirs for the king, and they lived very well compared to their non-concubine peers. Probably not strictly consensual, but monarchy is often a situation where 'everyone' was basically a slave to the monarch, no matter who you were.
It's the broader term in general, which is why I picked it over "mistress" originally despite the usual negative connotations (like how "witch" is usually negative... except when it's not). Then again, I also mentioned blood brothers as another ancient relationship status, and somehow we're not talking about that. So I don't understand my own derail and... yeah, I should probably shut up and go to work, heh heh. 8^)
[ETA:] Actually, I have an on-topic question! Is it a bug that kobolds steal from vaults, or are they really that badass?
Post by: Mesa on July 15, 2014, 07:18:06 am
I've seen some named trees in 0.40.01 so I think that it may partially be implemented already, but don't quote me on that.QuoteThe elves should definitely be changed now. It would be funny if they singled out specific old trees or parts of the map.
That would be neat, I can see an elf diplomat adopting a tree, giving it a name like the ones in their sites, and holding your fort responsible if it gets felled.
Post by: SmileyMan on July 15, 2014, 07:22:36 am
If, when break-ups and so on are added to the relationship code, DF ends up like a reality show, that could be for the best.Day 10 in the Big Brother Fortress. Urist is in the magma forge.
Post by: Talvieno on July 15, 2014, 11:33:31 am
I am perfectly ALL for having to deal with armies crossing your fortress site early on. It's realistic and it means you really, really don't want to pick a road or major highway as a site for your fortress, unless you think you can bunker down quickly. It also means that safer areas will be near the mountainhome - just build near there, and you'll often get dwarves that pass through on happenstance that can help save your fortress.Quote from: PuzzlemakerDo migrating armies show up in fortress mode? Is it possible to create a fortress that intercepts any armies heading towards your civilization?
...
What if you make a natural blockade, and the only way through is through your fort? I set up a map like that, I haven't gotten around to testing it though. (map) There is a spot you can build that's a landbridge between the goblin and dwarf civilizations, the only way through. Would the game just crash, or would they just magically phase through?
If I remember, they phase. It was easier to handle the pathing/connectivity AI that way. Ideally, you'd be fully a part of the world. The only real problems I recall with that is the game-related one of early difficult attacks, and having the AI consider your intervening existence (they don't think much about intervening sites now because there are no battles). Maybe people should just have to eat those attacks now. The armies do lose time entering your fort's time warp, but that's not a huge deal if they are just crossing the space and exiting the other side.
Thanks for the answers, Toady! :)
Post by: monk12 on July 15, 2014, 12:01:49 pm
Post by: Authority2 on July 15, 2014, 12:30:56 pm
I'm kinda hoping that's a scenario that will pop up when we get starting scenarios; "Build a fort at Tarwin's Gap; there's no strategic resources or anything of note, it's just the route the goblins use when they come to siege us. Be in their way."And instead of pathing into your fort, they try to go past it while you intercept them!
Post by: nomoetoe on July 15, 2014, 06:42:30 pm
Post by: Talvieno on July 15, 2014, 06:47:46 pm
will a race (like goblins for example) be utterly terrified of you if you were to kill hundreds/thousands of them?I believe that ties in with reputation and kills - you can boast about your kills, so I think it's safe to say there's eventually going to be a good reason to do so.
Post by: samanato on July 15, 2014, 07:10:00 pm
I am perfectly ALL for having to deal with armies crossing your fortress site early on. It's realistic and it means you really, really don't want to pick a road or major highway as a site for your fortress, unless you think you can bunker down quickly. It also means that safer areas will be near the mountainhome - just build near there, and you'll often get dwarves that pass through on happenstance that can help save your fortress.
Which actually reminds me,
Would embarking in, say, the same joyous forest that an elven civ has settled in, eventually be considered a breach of territorial claims and trigger hostility, and therefore a Very Bad Idea? What if the settlement is fairly far from the nearest forest retreat, hamlet etc.? How would territories and boundaries of civs in general work, while balancing out the gameplay? (since people might not examine every civ in legends mode and see which region is safe to colonise)
Post by: Dirst on July 15, 2014, 09:03:42 pm
I am perfectly ALL for having to deal with armies crossing your fortress site early on. It's realistic and it means you really, really don't want to pick a road or major highway as a site for your fortress, unless you think you can bunker down quickly. It also means that safer areas will be near the mountainhome - just build near there, and you'll often get dwarves that pass through on happenstance that can help save your fortress.
Which actually reminds me,
Would embarking in, say, the same joyous forest that an elven civ has settled in, eventually be considered a breach of territorial claims and trigger hostility, and therefore a Very Bad Idea? What if the settlement is fairly far from the nearest forest retreat, hamlet etc.? How would territories and boundaries of civs in general work, while balancing out the gameplay? (since people might not examine every civ in legends mode and see which region is safe to colonise)
Which actually reminds me,
When civilizations get recognizable borders, how will we recognize them? Will we be prevented from embarking in anyone else's territory, or at least anyone we're not at war with? I suspect national borders will be something more nuanced that claiming entire biomes.
Post by: Murphy on July 15, 2014, 09:12:20 pm
You can already filter the dialogue list: each question has a couple of keywords, and if you type those in at any moment during perusing the dialogue list, you can filter the list.Problem is, you can't filter by creature type. for example, if you forget the name of a titan, you can't filter by "titan" and find it out.
Post by: Footkerchief on July 15, 2014, 09:47:37 pm
You can already filter the dialogue list: each question has a couple of keywords, and if you type those in at any moment during perusing the dialogue list, you can filter the list.Problem is, you can't filter by creature type. for example, if you forget the name of a titan, you can't filter by "titan" and find it out.
Also can't filter the conflict summaries by the names of anyone involved. There's lots of deficiences, but I think they'll get sorted out soon enough.
Post by: thvaz on July 16, 2014, 01:37:57 am
You can already filter the dialogue list: each question has a couple of keywords, and if you type those in at any moment during perusing the dialogue list, you can filter the list.Problem is, you can't filter by creature type. for example, if you forget the name of a titan, you can't filter by "titan" and find it out.
Also can't filter the conflict summaries by the names of anyone involved. There's lots of deficiences, but I think they'll get sorted out soon enough.
Yes, the filter isn't working. And every animal you see generate an event as if it was attacking you (even if it doesn't), so finding the relevant event is really difficult.
Post by: XXSockXX on July 16, 2014, 02:53:59 pm
Quote from: Toady One
I tried something like that in 34.07 and it didn't work:Quote from: ValtamToady, is it possible to bring a dead body (say, from the wilderness) inside a fortress and memorialize it? Or does it need to be part of the fortress history to do so?
So like, bringing a dead body from faraway, dropping it in a fort, retiring, and then assuming control of the fort with the body there? Hmmm... I have no idea. I don't remember what comes along for the ride to maintain the identity of the body, and if that's the same stuff used in the memorial list (or if the memorial list relise on the unit-in-play list).
I had 3 types of corpses at an embark site, a dwarf adventurer who had starved on site, some dwarfs he had killed elsewhere and some dwarf corpses found in lairs (from worldgen). None of them showed up in the unit list, I couldn't memorialize them or assign tombs to them. The dwarfs would not bury them, and they actually put the corpses and body parts in the refuse pile, not the corpse pile.
Post by: SmileyMan on July 16, 2014, 04:19:16 pm
And every animal you see generate an event as if it was attacking you (even if it doesn't), so finding the relevant event is really difficult.You can however simulate being complete mad by standing in the town square and shouting about the raven that attacked you last week :D
Post by: smjjames on July 17, 2014, 10:10:54 am
Code: [Select]
go baby!
usz: 0
post baby
usz: 0
post clean
usz: 0
Post by: Darkweave on July 17, 2014, 10:31:45 am
Just out of curiosity, what does this error set in the errorlog mean?Code: [Select]go baby!
usz: 0
post baby
usz: 0
post clean
usz: 0
I believe it was some leftover test code related to this bug: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6571 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6571).
Post by: Footkerchief on July 17, 2014, 10:32:11 am
Just out of curiosity, what does this error set in the errorlog mean?Code: [Select]go baby!
usz: 0
post baby
usz: 0
post clean
usz: 0
He he he, yeah, I left some baby test code in by accident. go baby! = enter the scheduled birth function, post baby = after babies are born, post clean = after it puts them away in their historical spots. the usz is the number of units in play at the time. We want the first number and the last number to be the same, except perhaps in weird edge cases. I'll try to remember to take it out for next time...
Post by: 94dima94 on July 17, 2014, 04:23:26 pm
I like the new possibility to grab/block/paarry enemy attack while they're attacking. However, if somebody tries a punch, a scratch or a kick, I can't know which hand/foot they're using.
I really like to grab somebody's hand mid-punch, twist it and break it (I managed to do it one or two times), but it's always a blind guess, because in the attack screen it only says "attacks with punch" or similar. There's the risk of trying to block a right punch grabbing the left hand and looking like an idiot...
Post by: Toady One on July 17, 2014, 04:48:31 pm
Post by: Putnam on July 17, 2014, 04:52:30 pm
Post by: Toady One on July 17, 2014, 04:59:58 pm
edit: from a code search, "SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS" in the raws always maps to the observer skill (and OBSERVER/OBSERVATION don't map to anything).
Post by: Putnam on July 17, 2014, 05:01:38 pm
EDIT: ninja'd
Post by: Toady One on July 17, 2014, 05:03:18 pm
Post by: Putnam on July 17, 2014, 05:18:35 pm
Post by: thvaz on July 17, 2014, 05:24:36 pm
Post by: Vattic on July 17, 2014, 10:42:09 pm
PTW
Post by: Talvieno on July 18, 2014, 02:59:46 am
Post by: MaskedMiner on July 18, 2014, 05:45:17 am
Are those slade fortresses with upright sword in them still in game? I can't find them with stock menu, building menu or even lever trick.. So umm, are they still in game or are they just really rarer? Or is every method of finding them fixed?
In one of older version there were those unnamed whatever underground animal men civilizations, what is the plan for those? Is every type of animal men going to have their own tribal civilization or were those 7 underground "civilizations" placeholders for something else?
Post by: Vattic on July 18, 2014, 11:18:07 am
Post by: Gremdavel on July 18, 2014, 11:58:09 am
Are refuse stockpiles supposed to terrify certain dwarves?
Does said refuse contain any body parts of dwarves? If so, then yes.
Post by: Footkerchief on July 18, 2014, 12:34:32 pm
Are refuse stockpiles supposed to terrify certain dwarves?
Does said refuse contain any body parts of dwarves? If so, then yes.
Bug report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7435). I marked it as "no change required," but I'm interested in Toady's view.
Post by: samanato on July 18, 2014, 01:30:25 pm
Post by: Hades on July 18, 2014, 01:41:25 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on July 18, 2014, 01:42:13 pm
Are nomadic entities planned for the future, and if so, how would they be handled? We already have underground animal-men tribes, and I can see the current overworld animal-men forming roaming bands. (Centaurs maybe?) Would they also be drawn from existing entities, for example human outsider tribes?
Dwarf Fortress used to have nomads, and it's likely that they'll be back in some fashion, given that it is a historical human civ structure. Even now, occasional groups are called nomadic (I had that with a civ somehow only controlling a tomb, I think). For the most part, I expect they'll work much like existing entities and entity groups, being a mix of historical figures and faceless masses generated at the dawn of the world, as opposed to them drawing away from other civ sites, though the latter will probably happen as well.
Post by: samanato on July 18, 2014, 02:08:50 pm
Dwarf Fortress used to have nomads, and it's likely that they'll be back in some fashion, given that it is a historical human civ structure. Even now, occasional groups are called nomadic (I had that with a civ somehow only controlling a tomb, I think). For the most part, I expect they'll work much like existing entities and entity groups, being a mix of historical figures and faceless masses generated at the dawn of the world, as opposed to them drawing away from other civ sites, though the latter will probably happen as well.
Ah, thanks for the answer.
Spoiler: Also, another question. (click to show/hide)
Post by: Scruiser on July 19, 2014, 02:14:03 am
Question in spoiler
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Alev on July 19, 2014, 06:02:23 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on July 19, 2014, 06:16:38 pm
I'm not going to green this question, but: For adventurers, in the 'Q' screen, both 'events' and 'groups' have the key set as 'e'. It toggles, however. Anyways, has this been reported yet?
Yup. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6996)
Post by: Alev on July 19, 2014, 06:17:55 pm
Ok, thanks.I'm not going to green this question, but: For adventurers, in the 'Q' screen, both 'events' and 'groups' have the key set as 'e'. It toggles, however. Anyways, has this been reported yet?
Yup. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6996)
Post by: mnjiman on July 19, 2014, 07:32:59 pm
Post by: Untelligent on July 19, 2014, 09:32:22 pm
Actually, that gives me a few thoughts now that invaders come from groups on the world map.
Can you be at war with a civilization from one race and still get merchants from a different civilization of that race now?
Post by: Dirst on July 19, 2014, 10:59:24 pm
Would starting a war with the elves help as well?
Not sure about sending weapons home, but if the elves are at war with your civilization, any elven merchants you do see would be from a completely different elven civilization, so I don't think drowning their caravans to make them angry too would help at all.
If the elves went to war with your mountainhome, they would be at war with you as well. Or maybe the causality is reversed... you gave one to many elven merchants a magma bath, and now an elven army is marching on your capital.
Post by: Inarius on July 20, 2014, 06:08:47 am
Post by: mnjiman on July 20, 2014, 11:18:19 am
Post by: Talvieno on July 20, 2014, 11:27:14 am
Post by: Footkerchief on July 20, 2014, 11:42:19 am
Currently there are two ways of interacting with the world from fortress mode and theoretically have an impact in doing so. Through trade and through war (killing off sieges.) If you were too read (from your liason) that your dwarven home land was being invaded by elves, could trading weapons to your dwarven brethren help their cause and have a meaningful impact? Would starting a war with the elves help as well?
Off-screen combat doesn't yet take weapon stockpiles into account.
Post by: thvaz on July 20, 2014, 12:08:41 pm
Post by: Talvieno on July 20, 2014, 12:19:13 pm
Deep sites weren't supposed to be in this release?Isn't that what the deep dwarven fortresses are? Maybe I got them confused at some point. My mistake, then.
Post by: Knight Otu on July 20, 2014, 12:25:27 pm
Post by: Talvieno on July 20, 2014, 12:47:21 pm
The deep dwarven sites are in. Those are the dark grey ones in the center of the mountains, and they are only accessible by tunnels, I'm pretty sure.Huh, I haven't seen any, and I've been looking for them. I'll edit my post, though.
Post by: Alev on July 20, 2014, 01:15:39 pm
I haven't been to any, but I've seen them on the map.The deep dwarven sites are in. Those are the dark grey ones in the center of the mountains, and they are only accessible by tunnels, I'm pretty sure.Huh, I haven't seen any, and I've been looking for them. I'll edit my post, though.
Post by: Untelligent on July 20, 2014, 01:48:34 pm
Post by: thvaz on July 20, 2014, 02:03:51 pm
Post by: Talvieno on July 20, 2014, 02:22:12 pm
Post by: PigtailLlama on July 20, 2014, 07:05:55 pm
Quote from: Toady One
- Babies don't start strapped with a knife
Don't you realize what that meant Toady? That means they are destined to be a great warrior or assassin. Some babies are born with spoons of varying materials, but a knife? That means they know what kind of world they're born into. It's got as much validity as animals being appointed administrative positions! :P
Post by: Scruiser on July 20, 2014, 07:52:08 pm
Were these tokens only added to go with the new personality update or do they also indicate near term plans for expansion to secret motivations?
Also, nice job in integrating the personality goal expansion with the existing necromancy goal process. Its always fun to see thing come together like that.
Post by: golemgunk on July 20, 2014, 10:06:10 pm
So the wiki had some new Secret Goal tokens listed: STAY_ALIVE, MAINTAIN_ENTITY_STATUS, START_A_FAMILY, RULE_THE_WORLD, CREATE_A_GREAT_WORK_OF_ART, CRAFT_A_MASTERWORK, BRING_PEACE_TO_THE_WORLD, BECOME_A_LEGENDARY_WARRIOR, MASTER_A_SKILL, FALL_IN_LOVE, SEE_THE_GREAT_NATURAL_SITES.
What's the difference between "STAY_ALIVE" and "IMMORTALITY"?
Post by: King Mir on July 20, 2014, 10:42:51 pm
I imagine STAY_ALIVE is for people who are hunted or inflicted with disease and not for people obsessed with their own mortality.So the wiki had some new Secret Goal tokens listed: STAY_ALIVE, MAINTAIN_ENTITY_STATUS, START_A_FAMILY, RULE_THE_WORLD, CREATE_A_GREAT_WORK_OF_ART, CRAFT_A_MASTERWORK, BRING_PEACE_TO_THE_WORLD, BECOME_A_LEGENDARY_WARRIOR, MASTER_A_SKILL, FALL_IN_LOVE, SEE_THE_GREAT_NATURAL_SITES.
What's the difference between "STAY_ALIVE" and "IMMORTALITY"?
Post by: Putnam on July 20, 2014, 10:49:27 pm
Post by: Scruiser on July 20, 2014, 10:53:35 pm
Yeah that makes sense. Stay alive doesn't seem to act as a secret motive during world-gen (as I mentioned with raw modification and world-gen test). It would make sense to have separate goals for those that just want to stay alive versus historical figures actively seeking immorality.I imagine STAY_ALIVE is for people who are hunted or inflicted with disease and not for people obsessed with their own mortality.So the wiki had some new Secret Goal tokens listed: STAY_ALIVE, MAINTAIN_ENTITY_STATUS, START_A_FAMILY, RULE_THE_WORLD, CREATE_A_GREAT_WORK_OF_ART, CRAFT_A_MASTERWORK, BRING_PEACE_TO_THE_WORLD, BECOME_A_LEGENDARY_WARRIOR, MASTER_A_SKILL, FALL_IN_LOVE, SEE_THE_GREAT_NATURAL_SITES.
What's the difference between "STAY_ALIVE" and "IMMORTALITY"?
None of them work at the moment AFAIK, so it's somewhat irrelevant.Yeah they are pretty much just fortress mode personality characteristics as far as I can tell.
Post by: xaritscin on July 20, 2014, 11:05:17 pm
Post by: SmileyMan on July 21, 2014, 02:03:06 am
Post by: Knight Otu on July 21, 2014, 09:18:15 am
Perhaps STAY_ALIVE is the default, since it is the de facto motive of all living beings?Could be. Which means it really shouldn't work for secret goals. Would be awkward if everyone went necromancer, only to have nothing to animate. It doesn't seem to show up in the XML export if I recall correctly, though.
Post by: Dirst on July 21, 2014, 09:33:12 am
Perhaps STAY_ALIVE is the default, since it is the de facto motive of all living beings?Could be. Which means it really shouldn't work for secret goals. Would be awkward if everyone went necromancer, only to have nothing to animate. It doesn't seem to show up in the XML export if I recall correctly, though.
"Is your secret goal to stay alive?"
"I'm not saying."
"Do you mean to say that you don't want to stay alive?"
"No, just saying I'm not saying what my secret goal is."
"It's not like staying alive is a bad thing. Come on, you can tell me."
"I'm not telling you my secret goal, all right?"
"I think your secret goal is to stay alive, and you're just embarrassed to -- Gaaaaaaa!"
"No, actually my secret goal is to rid the world of really annoying people."
Post by: Sergarr on July 21, 2014, 09:44:09 am
or [BRING_PEACE_TO_THE_WORLD]Perhaps STAY_ALIVE is the default, since it is the de facto motive of all living beings?Could be. Which means it really shouldn't work for secret goals. Would be awkward if everyone went necromancer, only to have nothing to animate. It doesn't seem to show up in the XML export if I recall correctly, though.
"Is your secret goal to stay alive?"
"I'm not saying."
"Do you mean to say that you don't want to stay alive?"
"No, just saying I'm not saying what my secret goal is."
"It's not like staying alive is a bad thing. Come on, you can tell me."
"I'm not telling you my secret goal, all right?"
"I think your secret goal is to stay alive, and you're just embarrassed to -- Gaaaaaaa!"
"No, actually my secret goal is to rid the world of really annoying people."
Post by: jwest23 on July 21, 2014, 10:20:40 am
Perhaps STAY_ALIVE is the default, since it is the de facto motive of all living beings?
Maybe. Though I'd think it might drive caution and cowardice instead, and be the opposite of some new deathwish-like tag such as DIE_IN_BATTLE.
Post by: Inarius on July 21, 2014, 03:16:23 pm
Perhaps STAY_ALIVE is the default, since it is the de facto motive of all living beings?
Maybe. Though I'd think it might drive caution and cowardice instead, and be the opposite of some new deathwish-like tag such as DIE_IN_BATTLE.
could be linked to some Walhala myth, or Djihad.
Post by: Saram-61-97-kon on July 22, 2014, 05:50:22 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Witty on July 22, 2014, 05:56:54 pm
Are armor and weapon modifications (like thin, rectangular etc.) different from the unmodificated item? If yes, can you tell us what is changed? And what properties does the vault-clothing has?
No they are exactly the same. The only thing that makes them unique is the divine metal they are made out of typically.
Post by: Saram-61-97-kon on July 22, 2014, 05:57:13 pm
Post by: Scruiser on July 22, 2014, 05:59:10 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And a question to the community: what does PTW mean (I'm not a native speaker)? I guess something like thank you, but I couldn't find the proper meaning for this abbreviation. Google told me that it means "poison the well"...Posting to Watch (so any new posts to thread makes it come up in your feed of new responses). Try Urban Dictionary next time you are looking for internet slang.
Post by: therahedwig on July 22, 2014, 06:02:40 pm
And a question to the community: what does PTW mean (I'm not a native speaker)? I guess something like thank you, but I couldn't find the proper meaning for this abbreviation. Google told me that it means "poison the well"...
Post to watch.
There's an option in the reply form to receive e-mail notifications for a thread when it updates.
However, you can also just hit 'Notify' and have the same effect without posting, and while I understand posting PTW to inform the original poster that they're interested inmthe content, I wish it weren't so... dry. Or incomprehensible. Two years ago people still wrote post to watch full out, I had to break my brain as well to remember the context.
Post by: Saram-61-97-kon on July 22, 2014, 06:10:59 pm
Post by: Keldane on July 22, 2014, 06:58:08 pm
Post by: monk12 on July 22, 2014, 07:57:54 pm
If I'm not mistaken, most people who 'post to watch' do so because once you've posted in a thread, new replies appear when you click "Show new replies to your posts". It's purely a matter of quickly tracking specific threads from a single screen, if I'm remembering correctly.
This. I'd rather not have my email spammed when people respond to threads I'm interested in, and I'd rather be able to hang out and check on them via the forum instead of in my email anyway.
Post by: Rip0k on July 23, 2014, 05:04:56 am
Post by: Silverionmox on July 23, 2014, 08:18:54 am
Will different cultures within the same species, or different civilizations, have distinct behaviour? Will there be something else besides trained practices and probability range of personality traits? How will it matter for the AI? Will it be moddable, and if so, how and to which extent?
Post by: Footkerchief on July 23, 2014, 08:59:23 am
How are culture differences going to be handled?
Will different cultures within the same species, or different civilizations, have distinct behaviour? Will there be something else besides trained practices and probability range of personality traits? How will it matter for the AI? Will it be moddable, and if so, how and to which extent?
DF Talk #5 focused on procedural cultures and cultural differences. (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_5_transcript.html)
Post by: cephalo on July 23, 2014, 09:12:34 am
Are there major differences between the historical resolution that happens in world-gen and the historical resolution that happens in the calendar between games? If so, what are the biggest differences?
Post by: Dirst on July 23, 2014, 10:54:10 am
Posting to Watch (so any new posts to thread makes it come up in your feed of new responses). Try Urban Dictionary next time you are looking for internet slang.Yeah, but even then there's context that might escape a non-native speaker. When I first looked up PTW as a slang term, the Internet tried to tell me it means "pass the weed."
Post by: Quietust on July 23, 2014, 01:27:52 pm
Version 0.40 added GET_ITEM_DATA and ITEM_REACTION_PRODUCT so reactions can create different types of items depending on what material they're given. In previous versions, you could use GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:reagent:NONE to directly copy the material from a reagent (instead of specifying a MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT), but using GET_ITEM_DATA:reagent:NONE appears to simply not produce an item - is this something that's supposed to work, or something that you weren't expecting anybody to do?
Post by: Untelligent on July 23, 2014, 06:35:31 pm
Post by: dree12 on July 23, 2014, 07:21:35 pm
Man, that bugfix changelog's (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/changelog_page.php) getting pretty tall.
I like how Toady's fixing all these smaller issues. They're quick changes most of the time, and fixing them really adds to the game's polish. I'd rather 10 small bugs be fixed than one major big bug (unless the latter bug is gamebreaking, of which not many are left).
I'm especially looking forward to elven diplomats coming back in the coming version.
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on July 23, 2014, 08:29:56 pm
Quote
•stopped hyper-obese digesting dwarves from constantly recalculating insulation/mass data (UristDaVinci)
1. It is terrifying.
2. Actually Ag solved that bug - I had nothing to do with it: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5971
Quote
0005971: Fat dwarves eating causes lagInsert yo mama joke about gravitational time dilation here.
Wasted CPU can be expected to be on the order of 5-10%
Post by: Scruiser on July 23, 2014, 09:13:24 pm
Man, that bugfix changelog's (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/changelog_page.php) getting pretty tall.
I like how Toady's fixing all these smaller issues. They're quick changes most of the time, and fixing them really adds to the game's polish. I'd rather 10 small bugs be fixed than one major big bug (unless the latter bug is gamebreaking, of which not many are left).
I'm especially looking forward to elven diplomats coming back in the coming version.
Yeah the small things often stop much larger features from coming into play properly. Example: Elven diplomat. Now that the elves will start hating on me for cutting trees, I can finally get on board with all the anti-elf forum memes and start pointless wars. I'm Glad Toady is taking the time to quash these :)
Post by: Authority2 on July 23, 2014, 09:18:46 pm
Post by: Witty on July 23, 2014, 09:54:17 pm
Post by: Toady One on July 23, 2014, 11:29:07 pm
2. Actually Ag solved that bug - I had nothing to do with it: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5971
Ah, whoops. Fixed that -- I wonder if that means I left you off another one.
Post by: Elone on July 24, 2014, 01:24:38 am
Do the AI-controlled climbing creatures consider the wall/cliff/whatever height for their increased climbing cost?
Post by: thvaz on July 24, 2014, 05:44:18 am
Post by: Dame de la Licorne on July 24, 2014, 02:22:49 pm
<snip> Nevermind, found the answer.
-Dame de la Licorne
Post by: Shashu on July 25, 2014, 12:06:28 am
Quote
I also cleaned up some problems with the projectile code to move them over to a slightly more acceptable place, though there are doubtless some issues. Fixing a rounding error screwed up a lot of the other analysis, so I still had to wing it for now.
Could someone comment on the significance of this? How does archery compare now to DF2012? I heard there was some sort of wackiness in 40.01-40.03 but I'm not sure of the scope.
Post by: Putnam on July 25, 2014, 01:26:04 am
Absurdly Powerful Bolts/Arrows (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5516)
Bolts, crossbows and other ranged weapons have excessive SHOOT_FORCE values, leading to ranged combat issues (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6870)
Rounding Error in Calculation of Projectile Velocities (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6262)
Post by: Mu. on July 25, 2014, 07:02:59 am
I remember similar performance issues during the first few 3D releases.
Post by: therahedwig on July 25, 2014, 07:26:06 am
Can we expect any significant performance improvements from the next few updates? You mentioned that you fixed calendar lag, and that this should have some impact on fortress mode, which sounds good. The framerate in fortress mode quickly becomes unbearable, despite keeping worlds and region sizes as meager as possible. My current fortress has about 100 pop, is 3 years old, and has breached two cave systems. I have an average of 39 FPS. This is without much clutter: my corridors are currently free of any goblin bodyparts.The big activated world feature of this release means that the Calender is running at all times during gameplay. The Calender being basically all AI-interactions outside of your direct game.
I remember similar performance issues during the first few 3D releases.
Any optimisations to the Calender is also an optimisation to fort mode. In fact, if I am not mistaken, fort mode's lag is precisely because of the Calender being unoptimised.
EDIT: On second thought, there may now be more pathing issues due to trees as well as birds and the new climb/jump mechanics.
It will never go fully back to previous levels, because the Calender is a huge part of Dwarf Fortress as a game, but it will definitely be optimised.
Post by: dree12 on July 25, 2014, 08:26:13 am
Can we expect any significant performance improvements from the next few updates? You mentioned that you fixed calendar lag, and that this should have some impact on fortress mode, which sounds good. The framerate in fortress mode quickly becomes unbearable, despite keeping worlds and region sizes as meager as possible. My current fortress has about 100 pop, is 3 years old, and has breached two cave systems. I have an average of 39 FPS. This is without much clutter: my corridors are currently free of any goblin bodyparts.The big activated world feature of this release means that the Calender is running at all times during gameplay. The Calender being basically all AI-interactions outside of your direct game.
I remember similar performance issues during the first few 3D releases.
Any optimisations to the Calender is also an optimisation to fort mode. In fact, if I am not mistaken, fort mode's lag is precisely because of the Calender being unoptimised.
EDIT: On second thought, there may now be more pathing issues due to trees as well as birds and the new climb/jump mechanics.
It will never go fully back to previous levels, because the Calender is a huge part of Dwarf Fortress as a game, but it will definitely be optimised.
I think it makes sense for DF to get progressively slower over time, since hardware is a whole order of magnitude faster than when DF was first released.
Of course, optimizations are nice, especially since they allow more depth in the simulation later on.
Post by: thvaz on July 25, 2014, 08:41:21 am
Post by: Footkerchief on July 25, 2014, 09:20:42 am
Can we expect any significant performance improvements from the next few updates? You mentioned that you fixed calendar lag, and that this should have some impact on fortress mode, which sounds good. The framerate in fortress mode quickly becomes unbearable, despite keeping worlds and region sizes as meager as possible. My current fortress has about 100 pop, is 3 years old, and has breached two cave systems. I have an average of 39 FPS. This is without much clutter: my corridors are currently free of any goblin bodyparts.
I remember similar performance issues during the first few 3D releases.
There's a good chance this slowness is caused by bugs. Some reports:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7536
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6913
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7119
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6015
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7284
Post by: Deathworks on July 25, 2014, 03:00:25 pm
Are there plans to go into addressing the limitations and crash bugs in world gen during the current short term debugging?
Personally, I like to gen medium worlds with a history of 500 years (actually, I would love to run the default 1050 years, but this is currently impossible), and even with less than 400 years, the game often crashes, either while creating the world or finalizing sites or other things. So, I am curious whether I still have to remain careful about this.
Yours,
Deathworks
Post by: Footkerchief on July 25, 2014, 03:10:28 pm
Hello!
Are there plans to go into addressing the limitations and crash bugs in world gen during the current short term debugging?
Personally, I like to gen medium worlds with a history of 500 years (actually, I would love to run the default 1050 years, but this is currently impossible), and even with less than 400 years, the game often crashes, either while creating the world or finalizing sites or other things. So, I am curious whether I still have to remain careful about this.
Yours,
Deathworks
This sounds like the crash you're talking about (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6752), but I don't think I've seen corroboration for 0.40.03+. As always, crashing sets of world gen params are useful.
Post by: Deathworks on July 25, 2014, 04:16:22 pm
This sounds like the crash you're talking about (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6752), but I don't think I've seen corroboration for 0.40.03+. As always, crashing sets of world gen params are useful.
Actually, I had posted a report with world gen params for 0.40.02 that did the trick for me:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7115
And looking through the crash report, it seems to be a different one. There is no special lag or anything, just that the game simply crashes - and I mean that it simply disappears - no crash report box from Windows, no nothing; the game's window simply disappears or the screen switches to the desktop and the task is no longer in the task manager.
Yours,
Deathworks
Post by: Footkerchief on July 25, 2014, 04:31:05 pm
Post by: Shashu on July 26, 2014, 12:15:35 am
Quote
07/25/2014 The bug processing continued today.
Ahhhh, so satisfying to observe.
Post by: Darkweave on July 26, 2014, 03:30:35 am
There are two specific examples I'm thinking of. Firstly aboveground animal people aren't very interesting yet (DFTalk #3) and at [FREQUENCY:100] (adopted value from the parent creature) many of the (much more interesting) giant creature varieties are almost never seen in the lifetime of an average fortress in a savage biome. Secondly, while thematically interesting, having dragons grow linearly over 1000 years often leaves players disappointed when their fortress is attacked by a youngish dragon, especially new players who don't realise there is a long growth time, or that it can be modded, and are anticipating oodles of Fun when one arrives.
Edit: Unsustainable grazers, such as elephants, until our dwarves can feed our livestock, is another example.
Post by: thvaz on July 26, 2014, 03:42:13 am
Are there any plans for some default raw tweaks to areas of the game that likely aren't going to come back into development focus for a while but aren't necessarily bugs? There are two specific examples I'm thinking of. Firstly aboveground animal people aren't very interesting yet (DFTalk #3) and at [FREQUENCY:100] (adopted value from the parent creature) many of the (much more interesting) giant creature varieties are almost never seen in the lifetime of an average fortress in a savage biome. Secondly, while thematically interesting, having dragons grow linearly over 1000 years often leaves players disappointed when their fortress is attacked by a youngish dragon, especially new players who don't realise there is a long growth time, or that it can be modded, and are anticipating oodles of Fun when one arrives.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5462 This bug is about the animal man, and it's marked as Probably Quick Fix, maybe today Toady will fix it.
Post by: Darkweave on July 26, 2014, 03:52:15 am
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5462 This bug is about the animal man, and it's marked as Probably Quick Fix, maybe today Toady will fix it.
Oh okay, good stuff - hopefully he'll decide it warrants a fix. I swear I spent ages searching for a report on it, maybe I screwed up one of the filters.
Post by: thvaz on July 26, 2014, 04:12:37 am
Bay12games is undoubtedly among the greatest in the industry.
Post by: darkflagrance on July 26, 2014, 08:22:44 am
We players could probably restore some of that functionality (making them processable, brewable, etc), but I was wondering: are these plants a priority to be fixed as part of the tree/plant improvements that are part of this version, and should we expect them to be fully implemented as part of the current wave of bugfixing? Could we players effectively "fix" them ourselves with functions already extant in the game? Or are they unfinished because you want to add additional tags/mechanisms that will use these placeholder plants?
Post by: Footkerchief on July 26, 2014, 09:03:13 am
As per this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141276.0), it appears that many of the new plants are currently non-functional.
We players could probably restore some of that functionality (making them processable, brewable, etc), but I was wondering: are these plants a priority to be fixed as part of the tree/plant improvements that are part of this version, and should we expect them to be fully implemented as part of the current wave of bugfixing? Could we players effectively "fix" them ourselves with functions already extant in the game? Or are they unfinished because you want to add additional tags/mechanisms that will use these placeholder plants?
For what it's worth, there's a report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6940).
Post by: PigtailLlama on July 26, 2014, 12:29:33 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on July 26, 2014, 12:32:11 pm
Given the latest news regarding fixes to long-time bugs, will military dwarves automatically prefer the weapon they are carrying when activated and assigned to a uniform with the individual weapon option included? It'd be nice to have a properly-working "minuteman" militia composed of miners, woodcutters, hunters, and rangers that could immediately arm themselves and defend the fort.
When requesting a bug fix, it never hurts to link the report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1451).
Post by: MrWiggles on July 26, 2014, 09:15:11 pm
Post by: dree12 on July 26, 2014, 09:17:51 pm
Given the latest news regarding fixes to long-time bugs, will military dwarves automatically prefer the weapon they are carrying when activated and assigned to a uniform with the individual weapon option included? It'd be nice to have a properly-working "minuteman" militia composed of miners, woodcutters, hunters, and rangers that could immediately arm themselves and defend the fort.
When requesting a bug fix, it never hurts to link the report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1451).
On the other hand, this could be a problem if an immigrant Adept Swordsdwarf arrives with Adept Woodcutter skill (is that possible?). One may prefer this dwarf switch weapons.
Both are fairly minor issues since the equipment can be modified to specify the exact weapon to carry.
Post by: monkeyfetus on July 27, 2014, 11:40:22 am
Relevant posts from the old dev page I found:
Quote from: The old dev page
Core94, RANDOMIZED REGIONS AND THEIR FLORA/FAUNA, (Future): The current good/evil regions should be scrapped and replaced by a system that aligns a region to varying degrees with a set of spheres. In this way you could end up with a desert where the stones sing or a forest where the trees bleed, with all sorts of randomly generated creatures and plants that are appropriate to the sphere settings. It's important that randomly generated objects be introduced to the player carefully during play rather than just being thrown one after another to allow for immersion, though there's also something to be said for cold dumping the player in a world with completely random settings, provided they can access enough information by looking/listening and having conversations, etc.
Bloat238, REGIONAL EVIL EXPLANATIONS, (Future): Right now, the regions just go bad or good without explanation. There needs to be a backdrop for this, even if magic isn't in the game yet. The evil could be linked to certain historical figures in the region that need to be removed or else the evil keeps replenishing.
Relevant Threetoe story and analysis (http://"http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_forest_befouled.html")
Post by: Mopsy on July 27, 2014, 11:57:15 am
I'm just asking when and how?
Bad idea.
Post by: Knight Otu on July 27, 2014, 12:13:30 pm
Right now, AFAIK, every evil area has foul fog, evil rain, AND undead. When do you plan to give evil areas more variance/personality? For the most part, you've already explained your vision for non-binary good/evil sphere aligned areas, corruption by historical events and malevolent intelligences, and cleansing/purification, so mostly I'm just asking when and how? Like, what sort of stuff would go along with this or happen at the same time, and what needs to be in the game before you can even start working on this?Generally, questions of when get the answer "No timeline, but it's planned", and questions of how get the answer "We haven't worked out the details yet." As you quoted yourself, the eventual plan is to scrap the Good/Evil regions in favor of sphere-influenced lands, and Toady has mentioned that not all spheres would be suitable to become land-influencing. I'd actually say that many of the moving parts required are already in place. We have randomly-generated creatures, we have interactions, we have sphere links on materials (though technically they wouldn't be placed yet), we have the ability to generate things after history starts running (because, let's face it, it's always !!sad!! when DF generates stuff that can never see the light of day - many of the generated evil weathers, and now spoiler materials, and depending on your settings, unique demons won't be used anywhere). There's still several moving parts that are needed to make those regions interesting, I'd say, as well as lots of detail work, but I'd say Toady might be able to add it in now.
Post by: thvaz on July 27, 2014, 12:40:18 pm
Right now, AFAIK, every evil area has foul fog, evil rain, AND undead. When do you plan to give evil areas more variance/personality? For the most part, you've already explained your vision for non-binary good/evil sphere aligned areas, corruption by historical events and malevolent intelligences, and cleansing/purification, so mostly I'm just asking when and how? Like, what sort of stuff would go along with this or happen at the same time, and what needs to be in the game before you can even start working on this?Generally, questions of when get the answer "No timeline, but it's planned", and questions of how get the answer "We haven't worked out the details yet." As you quoted yourself, the eventual plan is to scrap the Good/Evil regions in favor of sphere-influenced lands, and Toady has mentioned that not all spheres would be suitable to become land-influencing. I'd actually say that many of the moving parts required are already in place. We have randomly-generated creatures, we have interactions, we have sphere links on materials (though technically they wouldn't be placed yet), we have the ability to generate things after history starts running (because, let's face it, it's always !!sad!! when DF generates stuff that can never see the light of day - many of the generated evil weathers, and now spoiler materials, and depending on your settings, unique demons won't be used anywhere). There's still several moving parts that are needed to make those regions interesting, I'd say, as well as lots of detail work, but I'd say Toady might be able to add it in now.
I would like to add that not every evil region is the same. In 0.40.xx I had a world with an evil region that didn't had evil weather, just undead. In 0.34.XX at least I am pretty sure you could have a region with only evil rain, or only evil fog, or only undead.
edit: typos
Post by: therahedwig on July 27, 2014, 12:43:47 pm
Right now, AFAIK, every evil area has foul fog, evil rain, AND undead. When do you plan to give evil areas more variance/personality? For the most part, you've already explained your vision for non-binary good/evil sphere aligned areas, corruption by historical events and malevolent intelligences, and cleansing/purification, so mostly I'm just asking when and how? Like, what sort of stuff would go along with this or happen at the same time, and what needs to be in the game before you can even start working on this?Generally, questions of when get the answer "No timeline, but it's planned", and questions of how get the answer "We haven't worked out the details yet." As you quoted yourself, the eventual plan is to scrap the Good/Evil regions in favor of sphere-influenced lands, and Toady has mentioned that not all spheres would be suitable to become land-influencing. I'd actually say that many of the moving parts required are already in place. We have randomly-generated creatures, we have interactions, we have sphere links on materials (though technically they wouldn't be placed yet), we have the ability to generate things after history starts running (because, let's face it, it's always !!sad!! when DF generates stuff that can never see the light of day - many of the generated evil weathers, and now spoiler materials, and depending on your settings, unique demons won't be used anywhere). There's still several moving parts that are needed to make those regions interesting, I'd say, as well as lots of detail work, but I'd say Toady might be able to add it in now.
To expand further, it's on the dev list under Adventurer role: Explorer.
If we'd psychoanalyse( ;) ) the development behaviour of the Toad, you'd see he sorta tries to work off the list. Explorer is the last of the adventurer roles before basic skills, so going by that it could take a while.
On the other hand, he's also gone off the list order. I never thought he'd implement multi-tile trees so soon, for example. And he's already put in the little pokédex you have in the Q-menu, which is under explorer role, so in truth: Who knows?
Post by: Spish on July 27, 2014, 02:04:08 pm
Post by: monk12 on July 27, 2014, 03:20:32 pm
Quote from: Devlog
Animal people and giant animals had a frequency rewrite (thanks to ab9rf for looking at that closely).
Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you!
Post by: Untelligent on July 27, 2014, 06:23:16 pm
Maybe I'll try a thousand-year world later.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on July 28, 2014, 03:27:03 am
I really hope my causeway will see some use (after I retire my fort, of course.).
Post by: therahedwig on July 28, 2014, 09:44:20 am
You said that the adventure mode AI has some basic emotions and opinions on thing, and while it's understandable that they find a lot of things terrifying(like vampires and criminals), being for the best(like the new overlord they actually don't want to talk about), or being terrific(haven't come across this yet), I can't figure out what they are trying to express with 'it was inevitable'.
Post by: Untelligent on July 28, 2014, 10:32:12 am
What does it really mean when they say "It was inevitable"?
I've been assuming it means they're indifferent to the whatever.
Post by: therahedwig on July 28, 2014, 10:40:38 am
What does it really mean when they say "It was inevitable"?
I've been assuming it means they're indifferent to the whatever.
That can't be: They have the option to say "I don't care either way".
So my question still stands.
Post by: Dirst on July 28, 2014, 11:28:57 am
Seems to me like a version of "It is sad, but not unexpected" without the sadness.What does it really mean when they say "It was inevitable"?
I've been assuming it means they're indifferent to the whatever.
That can't be: They have the option to say "I don't care either way".
So my question still stands.
Post by: Authority2 on July 28, 2014, 11:34:23 am
Post by: Alev on July 28, 2014, 12:14:41 pm
Maybe it was something they wanted to do and would have done if you hadn't.Or since they live in a violent world, the are desensitized to mass murder.
Post by: Deathworks on July 28, 2014, 12:24:16 pm
It would be helpful to find a similar set of parameters for 0.40.04 (or whatever newest release is available).
I manually (that is within the game rather than editing the init file) entered the data into 40.05, the current release, and it crashed the game just as before. While finalizing the sites, the task simply vanishes, no warning, no comment, nothing.
Here are the parameters just in case I mistyped something and the ones crashing 40.05 are not the ones I posted before:
Code: [Select]
[WORLD_GEN]
[TITLE:MEDIUM REGION]
[SEED:123Doom123]
[HISTORY_SEED:123Doom123]
[NAME_SEED:123Doom123]
[CREATURE_SEED:123Doom123]
[DIM:129:129]
[EMBARK_POINTS:10000]
[END_YEAR:330]
[BEAST_END_YEAR:200:-1]
[REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
[CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
[ELEVATION:1:400:1200:401]
[RAINFALL:0:100:200:200]
[TEMPERATURE:25:75:200:200]
[DRAINAGE:0:100:200:500]
[VOLCANISM:0:100:3200:3200]
[SAVAGERY:0:100:300:200]
[ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[MINERAL_SCARCITY:500]
[MEGABEAST_CAP:25]
[SEMIMEGABEAST_CAP:50]
[TITAN_NUMBER:10]
[TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:400:1000000:1000000]
[DEMON_NUMBER:30]
[NIGHT_TROLL_NUMBER:14]
[BOGEYMAN_NUMBER:14]
[VAMPIRE_NUMBER:0]
[WEREBEAST_NUMBER:0]
[SECRET_NUMBER:0]
[REGIONAL_INTERACTION_NUMBER:28]
[DISTURBANCE_INTERACTION_NUMBER:28]
[EVIL_CLOUD_NUMBER:14]
[EVIL_RAIN_NUMBER:14]
[GENERATE_DIVINE_MATERIALS:1]
[GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:200:300:800]
[EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:200:300:800]
[PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:20]
[PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:2]
[COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:1]
[VOLCANO_MIN:200]
[REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:260:1:1]
[REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:260:1:1]
[REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:1500:3:3]
[REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:1500:2:2]
[REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:1000:1:1]
[REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:1500:3:3]
[REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:1500:3:3]
[EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:1000]
[RIVER_MINS:300:100]
[PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:0]
[OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
[SUBREGION_MAX:5000]
[CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:3]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:100]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:15]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:13]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:5]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:5]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:5]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:5]
[LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:3]
[CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
[CAVE_MAX_SIZE:200]
[MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:30]
[NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:60]
[ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:0]
[SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
[TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:40]
[TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:-1]
[SITE_CAP:-1]
[PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
[ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
[RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
[DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
[SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
[VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]Yours,
Deathworks
Post by: thvaz on July 28, 2014, 12:40:13 pm
Maybe it was something they wanted to do and would have done if you hadn't.Or since they live in a violent world, the are desensitized to mass murder.
Yes. Like a feeling of resignation.
Post by: Knight Otu on July 28, 2014, 01:07:52 pm
Post by: thvaz on July 28, 2014, 01:39:14 pm
Post by: Untelligent on July 28, 2014, 02:20:29 pm
crashy world params
The bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/bug_report_page.php) is probably a more helpful place to post crashes than this thread.
Post by: Dirst on July 28, 2014, 02:59:54 pm
The future of that particular fortress is... bleak.crashy world params
The bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/bug_report_page.php) is probably a more helpful place to post crashes than this thread.
But I agree with the bug tracker suggestion.
Post by: MrWiggles on July 28, 2014, 04:44:01 pm
What is the deal with underground animal men turning into vampires? There a lot of them running around, killing people at towns, and it looks like they don't mind to hide their identities as a vampire. In legends I saw one that got cursed by a god by profaning a temple, this is intended?It is intended that Animal Men become vampires or the frequencies of Animal Men Vampires intended?
Post by: thvaz on July 28, 2014, 05:18:08 pm
What is the deal with underground animal men turning into vampires? There a lot of them running around, killing people at towns, and it looks like they don't mind to hide their identities as a vampire. In legends I saw one that got cursed by a god by profaning a temple, this is intended?It is intended that Animal Men become vampires or the frequencies of Animal Men Vampires intended?
The fact that they are profaning temples.
Post by: Scruiser on July 28, 2014, 05:22:41 pm
I.e. of the following elements which is more useful: A quick idea, a detailed summary, hypothetical tags and RAWs for an idea, detailed implementations, back and forth discussion over a contentious idea, research about historical background, free-form brainstorming, etc.
Just want to make my suggestion forum posts more likely to be useful or inspiring.
Post by: CaptainArchmage on July 28, 2014, 05:28:10 pm
It seems like the game is getting in order more and more! Hopefully it should now be possible to run a succession game with most things fixed.
Post by: dree12 on July 29, 2014, 09:04:08 am
Now that the population cap has been fixed, does this mean we will still get migrants when the units list gets exceptionally large? In at least 0.34.11, when the units list totalled over 1,000 units (dead or alive, not just citizens) the number of migrants started to drop significantly.
It seems like the game is getting in order more and more! Hopefully it should now be possible to run a succession game with most things fixed.
While the units list including dead or alive units is probably a bug, it makes sense to me that fortresses with 1000 alive units (!) should get fewer migrants until the FPS threat has passed, for performance reasons. Eventually, when the number of citizens is very large, emigration should happen.
Post by: King Mir on July 29, 2014, 12:03:14 pm
Profaning temples is the normal way to become a vampire. The only problem is, where do these animal people find temples to profane; aren't they all on the surface in cities? So I guess it is probably a bug; underground populations shouldn't profane temples.What is the deal with underground animal men turning into vampires? There a lot of them running around, killing people at towns, and it looks like they don't mind to hide their identities as a vampire. In legends I saw one that got cursed by a god by profaning a temple, this is intended?It is intended that Animal Men become vampires or the frequencies of Animal Men Vampires intended?
The fact that they are profaning temples.
Post by: Knight Otu on July 29, 2014, 12:08:01 pm
Profaning temples is the normal way to become a vampire. The only problem is, where do these animal people find temples to profane; aren't they all on the surface in cities? So I guess it is probably a bug; underground populations shouldn't profane temples.I'm pretty sure the animal people who profane temples come from among those outcasts that occasionally settle in those cities with temples.
Post by: Mr S on July 29, 2014, 12:10:15 pm
Also, enough of a jerk to profane a temple.
Seems legit.
Post by: dree12 on July 29, 2014, 01:44:11 pm
Profaning temples is the normal way to become a vampire. The only problem is, where do these animal people find temples to profane; aren't they all on the surface in cities? So I guess it is probably a bug; underground populations shouldn't profane temples.I'm pretty sure the animal people who profane temples come from among those outcasts that occasionally settle in those cities with temples.
Whenever I see an animal person in a human civilization, I can with 90% certain say that it is definitely a vampire. I have yet to incorrectly call out a vampire from a flashing animal-person.
Post by: tyrannus007 on July 29, 2014, 02:50:30 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on July 29, 2014, 04:49:33 pm
Can you make this release's new dialogue more moddable? In the game's data/speech folder, you can change a lot of the stuff people say in adventure mode, but the new dialogue ("It is inevitable", etc) hasn't been added yet.
The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments. Specific bugs should be reported on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/), and specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Post by: thvaz on July 29, 2014, 04:51:22 pm
Profaning temples is the normal way to become a vampire. The only problem is, where do these animal people find temples to profane; aren't they all on the surface in cities? So I guess it is probably a bug; underground populations shouldn't profane temples.I'm pretty sure the animal people who profane temples come from among those outcasts that occasionally settle in those cities with temples.
Whenever I see an animal person in a human civilization, I can with 90% certain say that it is definitely a vampire. I have yet to incorrectly call out a vampire from a flashing animal-person.
In previous versions they used to stay in the homes flashing. Now they run rampant in the towns killing everyone they meet ( but not you - if they see the player they just run away).
My question was to confirm if there is a bug about the amount of vampire animal men. I'm usually finding 5 or 6 alive in every town I go, and many more dead (I imagine those were recently killed by the population)
Post by: CaptainArchmage on July 29, 2014, 09:39:08 pm
Now that the population cap has been fixed, does this mean we will still get migrants when the units list gets exceptionally large? In at least 0.34.11, when the units list totalled over 1,000 units (dead or alive, not just citizens) the number of migrants started to drop significantly.
It seems like the game is getting in order more and more! Hopefully it should now be possible to run a succession game with most things fixed.
While the units list including dead or alive units is probably a bug, it makes sense to me that fortresses with 1000 alive units (!) should get fewer migrants until the FPS threat has passed, for performance reasons. Eventually, when the number of citizens is very large, emigration should happen.
Right, but really if it is because of FPS, it should be an option in the .init files. Plus, it is more of a dead units problem.......
Post by: ICBM pilot on July 30, 2014, 02:52:03 am
Post by: CLA on July 30, 2014, 05:53:03 am
Will cobalt be added?Looking at the wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt#History), it doesn't seem to me that it would fit with the rough historical/technological frame that has been set for DF.
It would probably be fairly trivial to add with a mod, though.
Post by: Putnam on July 30, 2014, 08:46:13 am
Will cobalt be added?Looking at the wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt#History), it doesn't seem to me that it would fit with the rough historical/technological frame that has been set for DF.
It would probably be fairly trivial to add with a mod, though.
Yeah.
Code: [Select]
[INORGANIC:COBALT]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:cobalt]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten cobalt]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:boiling cobalt]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:0:7:1]
[BUILD_COLOR:0:7:1]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:2]
[SPEC_HEAT:421]
[MELTING_POINT:12691]
[BOILING_POINT:15269]
[SOLID_DENSITY:8900]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:7750]
[MOLAR_MASS:58933]
[IMPACT_YIELD:787500]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:1575000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:437]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:787500]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:1575000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:437] bulk modulus 180 GPa
[TENSILE_YIELD:225000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:450000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:107] young's modulus 209 GPa
[TORSION_YIELD:225000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:450000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:107]
[SHEAR_YIELD:225000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:450000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:300] shear modulus 75 GPa
[BENDING_YIELD:225000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:450000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:300]
[MAX_EDGE:10000]
[STATE_COLOR:ALL:GRAY]
Post by: rustybob on July 30, 2014, 01:25:48 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on July 30, 2014, 02:09:35 pm
will you ever optimize the game, so that, say, i can run a 200 dwarf fort at 100 fps for 20 ingame years?
It's not possible to guarantee anything, but optimizations are part of the long-term plan.
Post by: Putnam on July 30, 2014, 03:45:14 pm
Post by: Inarius on July 30, 2014, 05:18:53 pm
Post by: Streeter on July 30, 2014, 08:23:15 pm
Post by: Miuramir on July 31, 2014, 11:36:47 am
will you ever optimize the game, so that, say, i can run a 200 dwarf fort at 100 fps for 20 ingame years?
"Premature optimization is the root of all evil" (Donald Knuth) Remember, DF is in early Alpha, with a multi-decade possible release window. A very vague estimate is 1.0 in around 20 years; the computer you'll be running it on then might be expected to be as much more powerful than a good Core i7 as the Core i7 is more powerful than an 80486. And quite possibly with an even more drastic change in architecture.
At this point in time, it seems moderately likely that future computer developments will be in the direction of "wider", more parallel, architectures. You can get computers with four CPUs each with 15-cores / 30-threads *today*; that's 60 traditional cores, none of which is individually faster than a desktop core. Put in one to four Kepler card for an additional 2,880 micro-cores each if you want. Today, taking serious advantage of that sort of width requires a fair amount of effort; in twenty years, that might be the sort of hardware you have in your phone to run retro games on, and compilers will handle it all automatically.
It's not out of the question that by the time DF is closing in on 1.0, the logical optimization might be to use one traditional core per dwarf, and one micro-core per chunk of map to handle its fluids and temperatures. People might end up saying "Well, I only have an old 96-core, so I try to keep my forts under 80 dwarves".
On the other arm, if we get real quantum computing, programming for that will be a different world. As I understand it, pathfinding would be one of the things it would be better at than traditional computing; perhaps most of DF will run on the deterministic side, with pathing offloaded to the "QPU" card.
The point is, there's no way to tell that far out; it's better at this stage to concentrate (as Toady generally has been) on the actual world generation and gameplay; and worry about serious optimization in another decade or so as the game closes in on Beta status, once it becomes more clear what to optimize *for*.
(Side note: On these time scales, it's not out of the question that some kid playing DF now will grow up to work for Intel and design a CPU *specifically to run DF-like tasks*. Think big! :)
Post by: Inarius on July 31, 2014, 12:44:42 pm
Post by: thvaz on July 31, 2014, 01:30:31 pm
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
Post by: Quietust on July 31, 2014, 03:52:34 pm
It's most definitely not a bug - there is explicit logic in the migrant code (known to exist in 0.34 and dating back to at least 0.23, if not the very first release) which checks the size of the in-play Units list (including dead invaders and livestock) in order to limit the number of migrants that can arrive; once it reaches 1000, it limits you to 10 (though I'm pretty sure auto-generated pets and family members didn't count), and once it reaches 3000, migrants stop entirely.Now that the population cap has been fixed, does this mean we will still get migrants when the units list gets exceptionally large? In at least 0.34.11, when the units list totalled over 1,000 units (dead or alive, not just citizens) the number of migrants started to drop significantly.
It seems like the game is getting in order more and more! Hopefully it should now be possible to run a succession game with most things fixed.
While the units list including dead or alive units is probably a bug, it makes sense to me that fortresses with 1000 alive units (!) should get fewer migrants until the FPS threat has passed, for performance reasons. Eventually, when the number of citizens is very large, emigration should happen.
Post by: samanato on July 31, 2014, 04:51:10 pm
I've posted a bug report about this; I'm not sure, if the visibly bugged neighbours list in the embark screen is connected to this (neighbours can literally disappear at the moment of embark seemingly) but invasions are definitely missing from my experience and many others.
Post by: Footkerchief on July 31, 2014, 05:28:01 pm
How extensive will be the changes required to fix invasions at the moment, which appear to be broken? It appears to have something to do with neighbours not pathing correctly, though there may well be other reasons. Has the "army will camp forever" message something to do with goblin armies not moving?
I've posted a bug report about this; I'm not sure, if the visibly bugged neighbours list in the embark screen is connected to this (neighbours can literally disappear at the moment of embark seemingly) but invasions are definitely missing from my experience and many others.
Don't forget to link the report! (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7739)
Post by: Toady One on July 31, 2014, 05:46:19 pm
Quote from: lue
How did you decide upon CP-437 as the encoding of choice for the game? And do you still think it's a decent choice?
It is the one we grew up with on our DOS computers. We already had a bunch of the codes memorized and knew how they looked so it was easy to work with. Working without graphics has been good for us since things have been quick to add, relatively speaking (compared to Armok 1, say), but there's certainly the problem with too many characters overlapping now.
Quote from: samanato
How do you plan to rework the tree-cap diplomacy of the elves? Singling out one particular tree and not telling you would be pretty !!FUN!!ny (and a little faeish, which I've always pictured elves as being), but would go into luck-based mission territory imo. Or is it the whole civ and the culture, that are changing?
I don't have more to add to the original question and answer. I'd assume the elves would tell you the name of the tree and exactly where it is and kind of rub your nose in it.
Quote from: Cobbler89
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: nomoetoe
will a race (like goblins for example) be utterly terrified of you if you were to kill hundreds/thousands of them? and would they be scared of a weapon used to kill many of there kind?
That doesn't happen specifically along racial lines, but it probably should. It can effectively happen sometimes based on entity rep (which can be somewhat racial), though the effect occurs more in terms of having people pass on ambushing or harassing you than general terror. Lots left to do!
Quote
Quote from: samanatoWould embarking in, say, the same joyous forest that an elven civ has settled in, eventually be considered a breach of territorial claims and trigger hostility, and therefore a Very Bad Idea? What if the settlement is fairly far from the nearest forest retreat, hamlet etc.? How would territories and boundaries of civs in general work, while balancing out the gameplay?Quote from: DirstWhen civilizations get recognizable borders, how will we recognize them? Will we be prevented from embarking in anyone else's territory, or at least anyone we're not at war with?
It's still hard to say how it's going to turn out, or if it should always be clear-cut in terms of territory. As far as I can tell, the historical precedents are all over the place. I don't think it'll be too difficult to be clear about territorial claims on embark and that kind of thing, when it matters, but I don't have specific plans for how it'll be. We still don't have a well-defined notion of property/ownership/etc. at all, for anything.
Quote from: Talvieno
Are refuse stockpiles supposed to terrify certain dwarves?
Are they being terrified by dead dwarf bodies? That's supposed to be scary, but there was that thing I mentioned back when I was talking about quests, where things like teeth would scare them under certain circumstances. I think there's probably a little too much flipping out as opposed to just negative thoughts, and that'll change when I do that thought rewrite I need to finish before job priorities.
Quote from: MaskedMiner/samanato
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: MaskedMiner
In one of older version there were those unnamed whatever underground animal men civilizations, what is the plan for those? Is every type of animal men going to have their own tribal civilization or were those 7 underground "civilizations" placeholders for something else?
The underground ones were always a bit more civilized equipment-wise, but I don't know that the aboveground ones are going to remain in their animal population state. We'll probably be in better shape once we have things like better-defined nomadic human pops.
Quote from: Vattic
Are we going to see plant genetics and cultivar breeding in future?
I tried to take them all out from the list we have, so there'd be room for that to go its own way if we ever get there.
Quote from: Scruiser
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: Untelligent
Can you be at war with a civilization from one race and still get merchants from a different civilization of that race now?
I'm remembering that I didn't fiddle with the "nearby" tag yet? If I remember, the concern was that you couldn't build a relationship with a trader (i.e. have year-to-year agreements work at all) if it sent different ones every time. We'll probably need the economy/caravan rewrite before it would be good to change it.
Quote
Quote from: ScruiserSTAY_ALIVE, MAINTAIN_ENTITY_STATUS, START_A_FAMILY, RULE_THE_WORLD, CREATE_A_GREAT_WORK_OF_ART, CRAFT_A_MASTERWORK, BRING_PEACE_TO_THE_WORLD, BECOME_A_LEGENDARY_WARRIOR, MASTER_A_SKILL, FALL_IN_LOVE, SEE_THE_GREAT_NATURAL_SITES.
Were these tokens only added to go with the new personality update or do they also indicate near term plans for expansion to secret motivations?Quote from: twentytentaclesWhat's the difference between "STAY_ALIVE" and "IMMORTALITY"?
I wanted to make sure the systems were under the same umbrella moving forward, but I don't have specific near-term goals for them. STAY_ALIVE was just a way to get people to eat, when I tried to have motivations for each choosable action... I'm not sure if I want to stick what that system or not. Theoretically, I want to be able to attack core motivations so that certain action trees can naturally collapse so stuff is more reactive without having to respect individual causes, but overall it's also clumsy. It'll probably see more use/decisions when I handle the dwarf thoughts before job priorities, since that'll lead us to longer-term moods and different emotions.
Quote from: cephalo
Are there major differences between the historical resolution that happens in world-gen and the historical resolution that happens in the calendar between games? If so, what are the biggest differences?
There are many, many differences. The calendar doesn't have army battles, new necro towers with grave-robbing from battlefields, megabeast attacks, production, trade, thieves, snatching etc. etc. etc. It's just not done yet.
Quote from: Quietust
Version 0.40 added GET_ITEM_DATA and ITEM_REACTION_PRODUCT so reactions can create different types of items depending on what material they're given. In previous versions, you could use GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:reagent:NONE to directly copy the material from a reagent (instead of specifying a MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT), but using GET_ITEM_DATA:reagent:NONE appears to simply not produce an item - is this something that's supposed to work, or something that you weren't expecting anybody to do?
To copy an item? I didn't implement that, due to corpsey concerns or just an oversight (don't recall). I can throw something in if people aren't expecting corpses/body components... I'm not sure how that would/should work, especially given the diversity of the inputs. I don't remember if copy even works on corpses (in terms of moving wounds and all the other data). A corpse cloning reaction might be beyond me for now.
Quote from: Elone
Do the AI-controlled climbing creatures consider the wall/cliff/whatever height for their increased climbing cost?
Nope. Any non-adjacent or persistent-from-move-to-move considerations are more expensive or difficult to set up, and I haven't done anything with that yet.
Quote from: thvaz
The new stealth mechanics are integrated in some way in fortress mode?
Everything except the actual vision arcs (so no facing, but all those things you see when you press 'S' in adv mode are in). It is the reason critters sneaking into the fort are generally much easier to spot... I'm not sure if the kobolds and snatchers are ever successful now. Hopefully sometimes. They need to be taught to crawl and move across open areas quickly, since that helps a lot.
Quote from: darkflagrance
are these plants a priority to be fixed as part of the tree/plant improvements that are part of this version, and should we expect them to be fully implemented as part of the current wave of bugfixing? Could we players effectively "fix" them ourselves with functions already extant in the game? Or are they unfinished because you want to add additional tags/mechanisms that will use these placeholder plants?
The harvesting stuff I haven't done should make them more reasonable. The dwarves aren't meant to just tear up grape vines and so on. They should pick fruit in season, and I'm hoping to get there in this cycle.
Quote from: therahedwig
What does it really mean when they say "It was inevitable"?
It means pretty much that I haven't gotten around to giving them something better to say, even if there was a reputation change etc., due to time constraints as much as anything. Certain conversation replies default to boring things, and it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket.
Quote from: Knight Otu
What determines whether a civ will use words from other languages to name their gods? It doesn't seem to be random chance - apparently, dwarves will do so more readily than other civs.
Just looking at the code, it seems to be feeding in the entity's language index, so there shouldn't be other languages. Probably just a bug, unless I'm misunderstanding. The choice of words is determined by the spheres, and that can go away from the preferred entity words, but they should all be in the dwarf language.
Quote from: thvaz
What is the deal with underground animal men turning into vampires? There a lot of them running around, killing people at towns, and it looks like they don't mind to hide their identities as a vampire. In legends I saw one that got cursed by a god by profaning a temple, this is intended?
Knight Otu mentioned the outcast groups -- and that's where they are coming from. Occasionally the underground people move into sewers and so on, and their historical leader is subject to the bad decision-making that plagues other historical city dwellers (like profaning temples). Their new rampaging behavior is all buggy though. The underground is stuffed with people that don't like each other, and they probably are buggy within their own groups as well, and it leads to an eruption of critters I think.
Quote from: Scruiser
What kind of and in what format do you find suggestions most helpful?
I.e. of the following elements which is more useful: A quick idea, a detailed summary, hypothetical tags and RAWs for an idea, detailed implementations, back and forth discussion over a contentious idea, research about historical background, free-form brainstorming, etc.
I think I've gotten something out of suggestions in any of those formats. I prefer suggestions with less fighting, but that's a forum guidelines thing (and I'll generally skip posts in which somebody is being rude). There's usually not much of a point in going into code implementations or coding time estimates, though there will be exceptions to that as with anything.
Quote from: CaptainArchmage
Now that the population cap has been fixed, does this mean we will still get migrants when the units list gets exceptionally large? In at least 0.34.11, when the units list totalled over 1,000 units (dead or alive, not just citizens) the number of migrants started to drop significantly.
As Quietust brought up, that's an unrelated old intentional thing I haven't dealt with yet. It's sometimes difficult to just cull dead units, since so many little bits and references can depend on them, but just shutting down the unit list is silly as well.
Quote from: samanato
How extensive will be the changes required to fix invasions at the moment, which appear to be broken? It appears to have something to do with neighbours not pathing correctly, though there may well be other reasons. Has the "army will camp forever" message something to do with goblin armies not moving?
I've posted a bug report about this; I'm not sure, if the visibly bugged neighbours list in the embark screen is connected to this (neighbours can literally disappear at the moment of embark seemingly) but invasions are definitely missing from my experience and many others.
This is the first time I've heard about it, and I have no idea why it is happening. I've seen plenty of invasions, but long-term forts aren't a common thing for me to test for time reasons. I don't think the camp message has anything to do with it, since that seems very common, and it wouldn't change or be changed by the neighbor status. I'll just have to check out saves and see what is going on. Losing neighbor status would be trouble for various reasons, assuming they aren't being conquered etc.
Post by: Chevaleresse on July 31, 2014, 05:57:34 pm
Post by: Scruiser on July 31, 2014, 06:02:54 pm
Probably the wrong spot for this, but I've seen complaints about how much of a FPS hit .40 is due to the calendar/worldgen thing. What if worldgen was run at a certain point every year? (Say, just before the liason is triggered?)Suggestions forum if you want to talk about any specific details (I'll see you over there if you want to talk ;D). If it really is just a question about the FPS of world-gen, you probably want to reword it and not ask for a specific idea (the "worldgen was run at a certain point every year").
Post by: lue on July 31, 2014, 06:08:40 pm
Probably the wrong spot for this, but I've seen complaints about how much of a FPS hit .40 is due to the calendar/worldgen thing. What if worldgen was run at a certain point every year? (Say, just before the liason is triggered?)
The 0.40.05 release saw optimizations to the calendar1, and I don't see as severe slowdowns due to the calendar anymore. At least for me, any hit to the FPS has now been lessened greatly.
1 For me, I'm now able to go through the two weeks in adventure mode on the largest sized world in basic gen within a very reasonable timeframe. In 0.40.01, trying the same slowed my computer to a crawl and I think the kernel even stepped in and killed some processes because of it.
Post by: therahedwig on July 31, 2014, 06:32:07 pm
Quote
It means pretty much that I haven't gotten around to giving them something better to say, even if there was a reputation change etc., due to time constraints as much as anything. Certain conversation replies default to boring things, and it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket.
Thank you, this answer made me burst out in laughter.
I'm now imagining all "it was inevitable" being said with an expression of being slightly at loss for words:
Adventurer: I slayed the mighty dragon!
Lady: ...Whu... It was... inevitable?
Post by: Vattic on July 31, 2014, 07:32:01 pm
Post by: monk12 on July 31, 2014, 07:40:17 pm
QuoteIt means pretty much that I haven't gotten around to giving them something better to say, even if there was a reputation change etc., due to time constraints as much as anything. Certain conversation replies default to boring things, and it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket.
Thank you, this answer made me burst out in laughter.
I'm now imagining all "it was inevitable" being said with an expression of being slightly at loss for words:
Adventurer: I slayed the mighty dragon!
Lady: ...Whu... It was... inevitable?
I was picturing it as more DF's equivalent of "Yeah, Whatever."
Adventurer: I slayed the mighty dragon!
Lady: It was inevitable. What, you want a medal or something?
Post by: King Mir on July 31, 2014, 08:22:03 pm
Post by: Cobbler89 on July 31, 2014, 10:01:01 pm
Also, it is fantastic hearing about the bugfixes.
Long live the cause!
Post by: hermes on August 01, 2014, 12:06:07 am
Quote from: Trophy Log
Reactions will also trim away pieces of bodies properly. All jobs that affect body components (anything that uses bone, for example) will now carve away pieces of the body component, which'll leave a "partially butchered" wound type on the limbs etc. that were used in jobs if the skeleton is animated. Leather from skins is still not computed according to size, though -- that's a slightly more difficult problem since they use a custom product tag for tanning.
Woah woah woah... does this mean scalping is now possible? Trophy taking?
Post by: Alev on August 01, 2014, 01:28:39 am
Post by: thvaz on August 01, 2014, 02:18:03 am
Cool about the stealth. We may want to clean the area in front of the fortress then. If it is difficult for them to enter, maybe they should restrict themselves to victims outside the fortress. Some dwarves who like the outdoors should go out sometimes while "On Break" to "help" their abductions/thefts.
Post by: Knight Otu on August 01, 2014, 05:55:17 am
I've cooked up a save for a bug report I'll post later today, but I think I've found a similarity between the divinities - the divinities in question are the improper-named ones (The Strong Call, the Bewilderment of Cats).Quote from: Knight OtuWhat determines whether a civ will use words from other languages to name their gods? It doesn't seem to be random chance - apparently, dwarves will do so more readily than other civs.
Just looking at the code, it seems to be feeding in the entity's language index, so there shouldn't be other languages. Probably just a bug, unless I'm misunderstanding. The choice of words is determined by the spheres, and that can go away from the preferred entity words, but they should all be in the dwarf language.
Post by: Henny on August 01, 2014, 10:46:52 am
Quote
It means pretty much that I haven't gotten around to giving them something better to say, even if there was a reputation change etc., due to time constraints as much as anything. Certain conversation replies default to boring things, and it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket.It was inevitable that it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket.
Post by: therahedwig on August 01, 2014, 01:43:10 pm
Post by: amistospindraca on August 01, 2014, 06:38:52 pm
QuoteIt means pretty much that I haven't gotten around to giving them something better to say, even if there was a reputation change etc., due to time constraints as much as anything. Certain conversation replies default to boring things, and it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket.
Thank you, this answer made me burst out in laughter.
I'm now imagining all "it was inevitable" being said with an expression of being slightly at loss for words:
Adventurer: I slayed the mighty dragon!
Lady: ...Whu... It was... inevitable?
I was picturing it as more DF's equivalent of "Yeah, Whatever."
Adventurer: I slayed the mighty dragon!
Lady: It was inevitable. What, you want a medal or something?
"Certain conversation replies default to boring things, and it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket." Making "inevitable" is the LAST resort in a conversation suggests Toady's sense of humor is more subversive than I previously recognized.
Post by: CaptainArchmage on August 01, 2014, 09:01:06 pm
So, the [SPOILER] forts underground are no longer in? That explains why I haven’t been able to find them, fortunately I do not now need to explore underground with an adventurer to confirm their non-existance. Hopefully they’ll go back in soon (like, next bugfix version maybe? If you can remember why they were taken out?) 8)
I think it would be great to see the next larger-ish version not take as long as this one did. I get this time around a lot of changes were made, though.
Hopefully I should be able to play some more of this new version soon - scheduling guys.
Post by: Untelligent on August 01, 2014, 09:43:21 pm
February 2012: $12586.51
July 2014: $15273.52
Close to the record, but not quite.
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2014, 10:05:04 pm
Post by: Alev on August 02, 2014, 12:47:15 am
Post by: thvaz on August 02, 2014, 02:19:34 am
However, by volume of searches, Dwarf Fortress had only its fifth best month:
Google Trends (http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dwarf%20fortress)
Maybe it is because many people already know about DF.
Post by: Valtam on August 02, 2014, 11:35:07 am
Didn't know about this new thread, will try to help out with questions next time.
Post by: Dame de la Licorne on August 02, 2014, 02:39:13 pm
Do you have an idea as to how much you still need to implement before being able to tackle various fort mode start scenarios?
As in, being able to do a hermit fort scenario without having to kill off six of the starting seven? Or some sort of last dwarves/generational scenario without having to re-roll fifty thousand times (exaggerated, yes, but the point stands) to get six of the starting seven to be age matches? And so on.
Note that I'm not asking "when", I'm asking "what still needs to be done before."
Thanks for the game, and all of your ongoing answers.
-Dame de la Licorne
Post by: Alev on August 02, 2014, 06:34:41 pm
Quote from: Today's devlog
Some more bugs were eaten by toad...Heh.
Also, autocorrect, 'were' and 'toad' were words last I checked.
Post by: vallannion on August 03, 2014, 02:59:24 am
Post by: thvaz on August 03, 2014, 03:04:32 am
On a slightly longer term front, do we know what the current goals are after adding useful smaller features like job priorities? Are we getting around to sending out dwarf mode armies now / all of the old Army Arc ideas given that we now have an active world with real diplomacy to play with? Or is it going to be more improvements for adventure mode?
Toady talked some time ago about doing proper taverns for adventure and fortress mode, and maybe some of the things related to it (parties, music). This would allow the ability to a player to have visitors in their fortresses for some time beyond the usual merchants/diplomats.
Anyway, probable the next step after job priorites is here:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Post by: magmaholic on August 03, 2014, 06:46:13 am
Are there any plans to degrade item quality over time?It seems weird that you cannot see the dents and scratches in the armor that you find in lairs,or find them partly rusted. You cannot see blades broken in half,smashed-in helmets rendered unusable by the fierce blows of a silver warhammer,or simply swords and daggers losing their edge when used often.It would make quality armor much rarer,and you would not have piles of items everywhere(THOUSAND year old socks? stolen iron greaves in kobold caves,hundreds of years old,even if iron held in crappy conditions rusts away really fast?).It would also make scrapping and repairing broken equipment a much more essential part of the fortress mode-cannot mine with a broken pick,can you?It would make the game much more entertaining and long-lasting,when you cannot dig straight for the cotton candy.
Post by: Knight Otu on August 03, 2014, 06:59:44 am
hey,toady.Yes.
Are there any plans to degrade item quality over time?It seems weird that you cannot see the dents and scratches in the armor that you find in lairs,or find them partly rusted. You cannot see blades broken in half,smashed-in helmets rendered unusable by the fierce blows of a silver warhammer,or simply swords and daggers losing their edge when used often.It would make quality armor much rarer,and you would not have piles of items everywhere(THOUSAND year old socks? stolen iron greaves in kobold caves,hundreds of years old,even if iron held in crappy conditions rusts away really fast?).It would also make scrapping and repairing broken equipment a much more essential part of the fortress mode-cannot mine with a broken pick,can you?It would make the game much more entertaining and long-lasting,when you cannot dig straight for the cotton candy.
Quote
Req149, FINISH ITEM DAMAGE, (Future): Fully implement item wear-and-tear, especially during combat. People throwing tantrums should be able to damage items in their square rather than just throwing them.
Req164, ITEM DAMAGE ISSUES, (Future): Handle projectile damage for odd objects. There are also problems with projectile damage being used when ammo is used in close combat
Bloat308, QUALITY/DAMAGE CUSTOM STOCKPILES, (Future): Allow stockpiles to specify quality/damage state.
Post by: SteveTheRed on August 03, 2014, 11:36:55 am
Quote from: TalvienoAre refuse stockpiles supposed to terrify certain dwarves?
Are they being terrified by dead dwarf bodies? That's supposed to be scary, but there was that thing I mentioned back when I was talking about quests, where things like teeth would scare them under certain circumstances. I think there's probably a little too much flipping out as opposed to just negative thoughts, and that'll change when I do that thought rewrite I need to finish before job priorities.
I found that some of my dwarves (those with low tolerances for danger) were becoming horrified on seeing dead goblin bodies in the refuse stockpile when dumping other things there. Mantis item 0007435 has more detail.
Post by: Eric Blank on August 03, 2014, 11:22:54 pm
Post by: Spish on August 04, 2014, 10:05:05 pm
Post by: Hotawotwot on August 05, 2014, 01:27:43 am
Post by: Knight Otu on August 05, 2014, 03:35:24 am
Will removing teeth/tongues ever impair/inhibit speech?Ever is a long time. So, probably yes.
Post by: Footkerchief on August 05, 2014, 12:09:24 pm
Will removing teeth/tongues ever impair/inhibit speech?Ever is a long time. So, probably yes.
Also, it's on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7240), so you can monitor any progress there.
Post by: Quietust on August 05, 2014, 01:38:23 pm
(I'm guessing "no" for IT_MATERIAL, since it's only used with weather effects, and there's no WEATHER_CREEPING_ITEM or WEATHER_FALLING_ITEM, as amusing as it would be to have it rain fish or have a cloud of locusts drift by)
Post by: Knight Otu on August 05, 2014, 01:57:34 pm
Looking into interaction details revealed two new breath attack types: TRAILING_ITEM_FLOW and UNDIRECTED_ITEM_CLOUD. How exactly are they used? Do they work with both CDI and IT_MATERIAL?For what's it's worth, this is an item breath that I believe works as well as any item breath currently will work (that is, no damage, item spatter coloring the floor, etc)
(I'm guessing "no" for IT_MATERIAL, since it's only used with weather effects, and there's no WEATHER_CREEPING_ITEM or WEATHER_FALLING_ITEM, as amusing as it would be to have it rain fish or have a cloud of locusts drift by)
Code: [Select]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:MATERIAL_EMISSION]
[CDI:ADV_NAME:Shoot disks]
[CDI:USAGE_HINT:ATTACK]
[CDI:BP_REQUIRED:BY_TOKEN:LH2]
[CDI:MATERIAL:INORGANIC:IRON:TRAILING_ITEM_FLOW:TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_LARGESERRATEDDISC]
[CDI:VERB:shoot large disks:shoots large disks:NA]
[CDI:TARGET:C:LINE_OF_SIGHT]
[CDI:TARGET_RANGE:C:15]
[CDI:MAX_TARGET_NUMBER:C:1]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:2400]
Post by: samanato on August 05, 2014, 02:19:46 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on August 05, 2014, 02:30:30 pm
Post by: Alev on August 05, 2014, 06:21:57 pm
Post by: Witty on August 05, 2014, 08:17:34 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: monk12 on August 05, 2014, 08:39:59 pm
Quote
Stopped dwarves from breeding like animals, technically speaking
So... what exactly does this mean?
Post by: Alkhemia on August 05, 2014, 08:43:32 pm
QuoteStopped dwarves from breeding like animals, technically speaking
So... what exactly does this mean?
It was that dwarves were calling their own code but also the animal breeding code, which just picks out a dwarf male somewhere to be the father.
Post by: monk12 on August 05, 2014, 09:15:09 pm
Post by: PigtailLlama on August 06, 2014, 11:08:44 am
Post by: Izu on August 06, 2014, 07:20:50 pm
Quote from: Toady One
Stopped dwarves from breeding like animals, technically speaking
This made my day
Quote from: Toady One
I put in a preliminary fix for backspace not working on OSX, but we'll have to see how that turns out.
Thanks so much! It was bugging me for ages!
Post by: Alev on August 07, 2014, 12:08:41 am
Yeah, this.Quote from: Toady OneI put in a preliminary fix for backspace not working on OSX, but we'll have to see how that turns out.
Thanks so much! It was bugging me for ages!
Post by: Scruiser on August 07, 2014, 01:13:10 am
Quote from: Toady One
Stopped dwarves from breeding like animals, technically speakingI will transfer saves to and from this version (40.06) periodically when I want to have a year of out of wedlock births. With some self-narration I can build up some pretty interesting stories. This is also great if I have a dead civ and I want to rebuild it quickly. No need for those long slow buildups of relationships!
Post by: Zavvnao on August 07, 2014, 09:23:05 am
I mean this in that I like reading, and the fact no one ask for stories after donating makes me worry they will no longer be an option eventually.
Post by: Knight Otu on August 07, 2014, 09:35:14 am
I hope no one asking for stories anymore for the donations stops you from offering in the futureErr... where did that come from?
I mean this in that I like reading, and the fact no one ask for stories after donating makes me worry they will no longer be an option eventually.
I have to admit I never really tried it, but I rather doubt that saves are generally backwards-compatible, just forwards-compatible.Quote from: Toady OneStopped dwarves from breeding like animals, technically speakingI will transfer saves to and from this version (40.06) periodically when I want to have a year of out of wedlock births. With some self-narration I can build up some pretty interesting stories. This is also great if I have a dead civ and I want to rebuild it quickly. No need for those long slow buildups of relationships!
Post by: therahedwig on August 07, 2014, 09:53:04 am
I hope no one asking for stories anymore for the donations stops you from offering in the futurehm? Zavvnao, the story reward is not the same as the threetoe stories, story reward is only a few hundred words. Threetoe just hasn't finished any new large stories in the meantime. Though I'm sure he's flattered by you missing that :)
I mean this in that I like reading, and the fact no one ask for stories after donating makes me worry they will no longer be an option eventually.
Post by: lethosor on August 07, 2014, 11:56:29 am
Transferring saves to previous versions generally isn't a good idea - any "patches" made to the save when loading it for the first time in a new version (the "Handling compatibility issues..." stage) are one-way, since implementing the reverse procedure wouldn't be possible in already-released versions. Attempting to load a save from a newer version could cause a variety of difficult-to-diagnose problems (or DF could simply refuse to recognize/load them).Quote from: Toady OneStopped dwarves from breeding like animals, technically speakingI will transfer saves to and from this version (40.06) periodically when I want to have a year of out of wedlock births. With some self-narration I can build up some pretty interesting stories. This is also great if I have a dead civ and I want to rebuild it quickly. No need for those long slow buildups of relationships!
Post by: Zavvnao on August 07, 2014, 12:30:29 pm
I hope no one asking for stories anymore for the donations stops you from offering in the futurehm? Zavvnao, the story reward is not the same as the threetoe stories, story reward is only a few hundred words. Threetoe just hasn't finished any new large stories in the meantime. Though I'm sure he's flattered by you missing that :)
I mean this in that I like reading, and the fact no one ask for stories after donating makes me worry they will no longer be an option eventually.
okay ^^ I know I missunderstood now then.
Post by: Footkerchief on August 07, 2014, 03:48:56 pm
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/changelog_page.php?version_id=45
- 0003981: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop] Having multiple active beekeepers causes dwarves with "Installing Colony in Hive" Job to become stuck (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0006368: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop] Crash if bees die in a hive with yet ungathered products. (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0004014: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Cancellation and Suspension] "Dwarf cancels Install Colony in Hive: Could not find Path" drops FPS (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0005726: [Dwarf Mode -- Interface, Announcements: Message Spam] Beehives + burrow = "cancels Install Colony In Hive: Forbidden area" (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0004223: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop] Dwarves don't "split" bee hives, only use wild ones (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0003961: [Dwarf Mode -- Interface, Tasks] Dwarf interrupted during beehive stocking doesn't lose job (Toady One) - resolved.
Post by: Scruiser on August 07, 2014, 04:37:16 pm
Transferring saves to previous versions generally isn't a good idea - any "patches" made to the save when loading it for the first time in a new version (the "Handling compatibility issues..." stage) are one-way, since implementing the reverse procedure wouldn't be possible in already-released versions. Attempting to load a save from a newer version could cause a variety of difficult-to-diagnose problems (or DF could simply refuse to recognize/load them).So its a one way transition? Will, I guess I will enjoy the lack traditional family structure while it lasts...
Post by: thvaz on August 07, 2014, 04:45:24 pm
A crapton of beekeeping bugs just got fixed!Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/changelog_page.php?version_id=45- 0003981: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop] Having multiple active beekeepers causes dwarves with "Installing Colony in Hive" Job to become stuck (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0006368: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop] Crash if bees die in a hive with yet ungathered products. (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0004014: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Cancellation and Suspension] "Dwarf cancels Install Colony in Hive: Could not find Path" drops FPS (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0005726: [Dwarf Mode -- Interface, Announcements: Message Spam] Beehives + burrow = "cancels Install Colony In Hive: Forbidden area" (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0004223: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop] Dwarves don't "split" bee hives, only use wild ones (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0003961: [Dwarf Mode -- Interface, Tasks] Dwarf interrupted during beehive stocking doesn't lose job (Toady One) - resolved.
I like how Toady is fixing bugs in batches, making half broken features become fully (or almost) operational.
Post by: smjjames on August 07, 2014, 05:28:15 pm
A crapton of beekeeping bugs just got fixed!Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/changelog_page.php?version_id=45- 0003981: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop] Having multiple active beekeepers causes dwarves with "Installing Colony in Hive" Job to become stuck (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0006368: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop] Crash if bees die in a hive with yet ungathered products. (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0004014: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Cancellation and Suspension] "Dwarf cancels Install Colony in Hive: Could not find Path" drops FPS (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0005726: [Dwarf Mode -- Interface, Announcements: Message Spam] Beehives + burrow = "cancels Install Colony In Hive: Forbidden area" (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0004223: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop] Dwarves don't "split" bee hives, only use wild ones (Toady One) - resolved.
- 0003961: [Dwarf Mode -- Interface, Tasks] Dwarf interrupted during beehive stocking doesn't lose job (Toady One) - resolved.
Yeah, awesome that beekeeping is at least more functional.
Still waiting on some of the fort mode bugs before getting into it for the new version, mostly the 'can't brew' issue, some of the tree stuff, and maybe the merchant buggyness.
Post by: Footkerchief on August 07, 2014, 06:17:55 pm
mostly the 'can't brew' issue
We're still waiting on a save that demonstrates an actual bug (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7447) -- it's not clear whether one exists. So far, all the cases have actually been a much older quirk (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=434).
Post by: cephalo on August 07, 2014, 07:31:17 pm
mostly the 'can't brew' issue
We're still waiting on a save that demonstrates an actual bug (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7447) -- it's not clear whether one exists. So far, all the cases have actually been a much older quirk (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=434).
That and barrels being tied up forever for hauling tasks.
Post by: Quietust on August 08, 2014, 08:13:43 am
Transferring saves to previous versions generally isn't a good ideaIt's not just a bad idea - it's completely impossible because Dwarf Fortress won't even acknowledge that the savegame even exists because its version number is out of range. In order to even get it to load, you'd have to change the savegame's version number (in every single .DAT file), and then you'd run into all sorts of problems (such as outright crashes if the save format changed between those two versions, which happens quite frequently).
(or DF could simply refuse to recognize/load them)In other words, this.
Post by: greycat on August 08, 2014, 03:20:32 pm
mostly the 'can't brew' issue
We're still waiting on a save that demonstrates an actual bug (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7447) -- it's not clear whether one exists. So far, all the cases have actually been a much older quirk (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=434).
That and barrels being tied up forever for hauling tasks.
That and that, and people installing DF2012 graphics packs and breaking their raws.
The main fort mode issues for me are "no invasions (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7739)" (allegedly fixed in upcoming 0.40.07) and "sparring dwarves only wrestle (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7519)" (which you can work around with danger rooms or micromanaging weapon drills). Followed by a very distant third, "new plants are not all implemented".
Post by: Footkerchief on August 08, 2014, 03:27:20 pm
Followed by a very distant third, "new plants are not all implemented".
(report) (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6940)
Post by: greycat on August 08, 2014, 05:32:33 pm
:D
Post by: Redzephyr01 on August 09, 2014, 02:58:00 pm
Post by: thvaz on August 09, 2014, 03:01:13 pm
Will creatures that take up multiple tiles (other than wagons) ever be implemented?
Ever is a long time. So, probably yes.
Post by: Footkerchief on August 09, 2014, 03:21:09 pm
Will creatures that take up multiple tiles (other than wagons) ever be implemented?Ever is a long time. So, probably yes.
While this answer is technically valid, there's a lot more information available:
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html
Rainseeker: Right. Well, I have a technical question here; 'How exactly long, wide and tall is a tile in Dwarf Fortress? Are they cubes?'; this is from Lonewolf.
Toady: What the traditional answer is [is] that they're not so big that a dwarf doesn't have to crawl under another dwarf to get through a corridor but at the same time they're big enough to hold a thousand dragons as long as nine hundred and ninety nine of them are lying down. On the other hand it's a serious question because so much would ride on giving an answer; that's why I haven't so far. Because the second that you give an answer the game becomes constricted and you need things to make more sense; suddenly everything needs to make sense. I'm not ready to do that; I think there's something to be said for it - something to be said for nailing that down - but it would really kind of invite things like multi-tile creatures and stuff that I'm just not ready to do. There are some good things about multi-tile creatures; I think they'd be kind of cool. But path finding would need to be changed heavily, and there'd be other issues with them. Would they be too easy to kill for example by hiding off somewhere that they can't get to and shooting at them or whatever; so they'd need to be smart enough to avoid situations like that which might be difficult. So that's kind of one of the main problems - the large creatures - why I haven't established a number yet.
[...]
Capntastic: Will you be able to climb things in the future, like climb a dragon and punch its brain?
Toady: There's the issue with ... It's a question of multi-tile creatures partially - which is a difficult problem - but just the fact that there's the wrestling, and even without multi-tile creatures you've got things like groundhogs that can currently jump up and bite your eyes. That's one of the problems I'm having when I was doing my groundhog tests: twenty versus a guy with a knife, who wins? If the groundhog problem is solved, which it needs to be solved - not for this release most likely but at some point - then that means that that same thing will happen to you when you're fighting a giant creature. I think it would be cool to jump up on things, beyond just Shadow of the Colossus it's a common thing in Ray Harryhausen stuff and so on. So with the large creatures I think it'd be really cool to jump up on them and climb them and swing from them and so on. It wouldn't be as dramatic visually of course as Shadow of the Colossus but it certainly would be a lot of fun.
Quote from: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1788.msg28203#msg28203
Just having a chase routine isn't sufficient -- if the multi-tile creature chases something and manages to get around a corner, it'll then be stuck or have some very rudimentary routines to try to get out, which would be anticlimactic. I prefer the large creatures to have brains (or at least potential brains) than extra tiles. The main issue is path finding and how it currently handles it via connected component numberings, which really only work perfectly for creatures that move like dwarves now. Other creatures currently work mostly okay with them, but multi-tile creatures wouldn't work at all. I don't think it would be impossible to change this, but I don't have and have not seen any feasible ideas for handling the issue.
There are also many Suggestions threads, of course. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97361.msg2818434#msg2818434)
Post by: Dante on August 09, 2014, 07:23:11 pm
Post by: CaptainArchmage on August 09, 2014, 08:30:11 pm
Quote
Made unretired forts unhide fully, flowing from surface and all units
Required animal hauling labor for various jobs
Added new labors for hauling trade goods, pulling levers, removing constructions and hauling water
Made laborless building construct/destroy jobs take furniture hauling
Attached trap cleaning to clean labor
Added another adjustment to designation jobs to help them vs. paths that became bad
We should really get the ability to designate areas for cleaning, too. That would be a great change for the next version.
Post by: palu on August 09, 2014, 09:43:50 pm
Quote
Required animal hauling labor for various jobsYes!
Added new labors for hauling trade goods, pulling levers, removing constructions and hauling water
Made laborless building construct/destroy jobs take furniture hauling
Attached trap cleaning to clean labor
Post by: crapabear on August 09, 2014, 09:53:50 pm
Post by: Talvieno on August 09, 2014, 10:00:54 pm
I think you said at one point that you plan on implementing the ability to perform actions whilst falling in adventure mode. If my adventurer were in the process of falling down a deep vertical shaft and I removed a heavy object from my backpack and threw it, would the conservation of horizontal momentum be respected? In other words, would my falling adventurer be propelled in the opposite direction?I think that would be ridiculously difficult to do on a set of tiles like DF does, not to mention that the effect would be imperceptibly small anyway.
Post by: Putnam on August 09, 2014, 10:09:53 pm
Post by: Talvieno on August 09, 2014, 10:11:03 pm
Nethack does it.really... Huh. Color me impressed. Still haven't seen it in DF, though, even on a horizontal plane. Throwing a blue whale does nothing towards pushing you in the opposite direction.
Post by: Footkerchief on August 09, 2014, 10:45:20 pm
I think you said at one point that you plan on implementing the ability to perform actions whilst falling in adventure mode. If my adventurer were in the process of falling down a deep vertical shaft and I removed a heavy object from my backpack and threw it, would the conservation of horizontal momentum be respected? In other words, would my falling adventurer be propelled in the opposite direction?
I think it can be safely assumed that the first implementation of mid-fall actions will not include conservation of momentum.
Post by: Talvieno on August 10, 2014, 01:15:00 am
Post by: King Mir on August 10, 2014, 02:27:00 am
It wouldn't be imperceptibly small generally; if you throw a heavy backpack while falling, you'd noticeably move in the opposite horizontal direction. However, there's not usually enough time during a fall to do that kind of thing. Currently we can try to grab tree branches and cliff sides during a fall, which is more practical.I think you said at one point that you plan on implementing the ability to perform actions whilst falling in adventure mode. If my adventurer were in the process of falling down a deep vertical shaft and I removed a heavy object from my backpack and threw it, would the conservation of horizontal momentum be respected? In other words, would my falling adventurer be propelled in the opposite direction?I think that would be ridiculously difficult to do on a set of tiles like DF does, not to mention that the effect would be imperceptibly small anyway.
Post by: therahedwig on August 10, 2014, 05:20:49 am
Do note this means our labour exempt kids a nobles won't do them anymore.QuoteRequired animal hauling labor for various jobsYes!
Added new labors for hauling trade goods, pulling levers, removing constructions and hauling water
Made laborless building construct/destroy jobs take furniture hauling
Attached trap cleaning to clean labor
Post by: Talvieno on August 10, 2014, 10:08:53 am
Keep in mind that realistically you shouldn't be able to throw heavy enough objects to make a noticeable difference. At the very most (realistically) it would have the same effect as you would notice from pushing off a wall , as that's the most force your arms could exert. Thinking you could throw a dragon-loaded backpack in real life would be ridiculous, and although if you could, it would propel you in the opposite direction, realistically you would just be pushing off of it.It wouldn't be imperceptibly small generally; if you throw a heavy backpack while falling, you'd noticeably move in the opposite horizontal direction. However, there's not usually enough time during a fall to do that kind of thing. Currently we can try to grab tree branches and cliff sides during a fall, which is more practical.I think you said at one point that you plan on implementing the ability to perform actions whilst falling in adventure mode. If my adventurer were in the process of falling down a deep vertical shaft and I removed a heavy object from my backpack and threw it, would the conservation of horizontal momentum be respected? In other words, would my falling adventurer be propelled in the opposite direction?I think that would be ridiculously difficult to do on a set of tiles like DF does, not to mention that the effect would be imperceptibly small anyway.
Also realistically, if you fall 20 z's and somehow manage to grab onto a cliff face, it would rip your arm off. :P But I consider that an acceptable break from reality, if it means I live a little longer.
Did I use "realistically" enough in this post? :-[
Post by: King Mir on August 10, 2014, 10:33:14 am
It won't make a difference in slowing your fall, but throwing a 60 pound backpack in mid aid should make a difference in where you land. So doesn't need to be unrealistically heavy. It's not really a useful thing to do though. Firing a bow should have a comparable effect, since your arms are working just as hard, but again, firing a bow while falling or being thrown isn't practical. Firing a preloaded crossbow could be slightly more realistic, and would push you more.Keep in mind that realistically you shouldn't be able to throw heavy enough objects to make a noticeable difference. At the very most (realistically) it would have the same effect as you would notice from pushing off a wall , as that's the most force your arms could exert. Thinking you could throw a dragon-loaded backpack in real life would be ridiculous, and although if you could, it would propel you in the opposite direction, realistically you would just be pushing off of it.It wouldn't be imperceptibly small generally; if you throw a heavy backpack while falling, you'd noticeably move in the opposite horizontal direction. However, there's not usually enough time during a fall to do that kind of thing. Currently we can try to grab tree branches and cliff sides during a fall, which is more practical.I think you said at one point that you plan on implementing the ability to perform actions whilst falling in adventure mode. If my adventurer were in the process of falling down a deep vertical shaft and I removed a heavy object from my backpack and threw it, would the conservation of horizontal momentum be respected? In other words, would my falling adventurer be propelled in the opposite direction?I think that would be ridiculously difficult to do on a set of tiles like DF does, not to mention that the effect would be imperceptibly small anyway.
Also realistically, if you fall 20 z's and somehow manage to grab onto a cliff face, it would rip your arm off. :P But I consider that an acceptable break from reality, if it means I live a little longer.
Did I use "realistically" enough in this post? :-[
It would be cool to model this accurately, but it doesn't really add value to the game. Especially when there are more pressing ways to make falling better, such as having some notion of landing on your feet.
Post by: Zavvnao on August 10, 2014, 11:57:10 am
Post by: smjjames on August 10, 2014, 05:33:19 pm
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7937
Post by: Meph on August 10, 2014, 10:03:52 pm
Quote
I am slightly late, I just wanted to give a bit of background info:QuoteQuote from: sal880612m on July 14, 2014, 08:08:54 pm
Okay so while Toady is clearly against concubinage, is he in general against the idea of having a some sort of extramarital consort/mistress that could lead to things like illegitimate heirs and other such intrigues?
It was a while ago, but I really just set the child board up on the condition that none of the really explicit material be in there (I originally had the body part mods in mind). Meph decided what was in and out on his own, but I can't say I disagree (I don't have a definite opinion on this specific case, since I don't know the implementation, but I would have agreed with removing anything like sexual slavery). I'm not against adding extramarital stuff or other variety/antics/etc. If, when break-ups and so on are added to the relationship code, DF ends up like a reality show, that could be for the best.
Concubines were added as a game mechanic to get more dwarves in a fort with low migration, since they are civ-members that give birth to children without being married. That meant that you can more easily replenish your numbers. Side effect was of course that they are owned as pet, can be butchered, and that migrants arrive with them. In the current mod that is no longer needed, since dfhack allowed me to make the Townportal, a building that spawns new civ members, simulated as migrants that arrive directly teleported from the mountainhomes.
So one feature got removed, another added, both having the same game mechanic of generating more fort members. Thats it.
Post by: therahedwig on August 11, 2014, 10:18:51 am
Are there any plans to have dwarf personalities modified by circumstance? Like, a dwarf who doesn't value family starting to value family because their relationships with their family is so good in game. Or a dwarf that is naturally pessimistic becoming more optimistic because they are surrounded by optimistic dwarves. In other words, dwarves are affected by nature, but are they going to be affected by nurture?
I know Toady has mentioned 'training' your adventurer's personality, and I know that dwarves can become traumatised, but I can't remember anything specific outside that, and I sorta refuse to believe there hasn't been... It's just, my searching skills are failing me?
Post by: Knight Otu on August 11, 2014, 10:26:02 am
I'm curious, I know there must be something about it somewhere but my searching skills are failing me.It's definitely been talked about, mostly in the context of children being born with fully-formed personalities. This bit is from DF Talk 3, but there should be others.:
Are there any plans to have dwarf personalities modified by circumstance? Like, a dwarf who doesn't value family starting to value family because their relationships with their family is so good in game. Or a dwarf that is naturally pessimistic becoming more optimistic because they are surrounded by optimistic dwarves. In other words, dwarves are affected by nature, but are they going to be affected by nurture?
I know Toady has mentioned 'training' your adventurer's personality, and I know that dwarves can become traumatised, but I can't remember anything specific outside that, and I sorta refuse to believe there hasn't been... It's just, my searching skills are failing me?
Quote
Rainseeker: I have a question from guyinthecrowd: [6]'Will the environment a dwarf is raised in affect what they like/dislike? For example, if a dwarf is unhappy as a child being raised in a fortress made entirely out of mined Orthoclase, will said dwarf dislike Orthoclase as an adult? Or as a counter-example, if a dwarf is happy whilst being raised in a room of Kaolinite, will said dwarf like Kaolinite when they become an adult?'
Toady: That's kind of a specific example, and I guess that's what it comes down to though. We've had discussions in the past about how the babies pop out right now with fully formed personalities and likes and dislikes and so on, and how that's silly. So then you've got to answer some nature versus nurture questions yourself and then decide what is it that influences these things? I haven't thought about that deeply what's going in the game and what's not for that, it's just recognized as one of those third-tier problems that eventually needs to be dealt with in terms of future development. So I don't have specific opinions on the things put there, but certainly children should acknowledge their parents' professions and if they're given toys as a child that should be able to influence them and so on. It's not difficult to do any specific example of that, especially if you add things like kids playing with toys which obviously has to happen sometime - we have these toys that no-one ever uses; right now they're just trade goods which is kind of silly, the same thing for musical instruments - and once they can use those things then adding a specific influence there is something that's pretty trivial. You just need to have enough of those things that the process seems natural. Like I said it's not a high priority thing, but it's something we'd like to do, vaguely along those lines.
Post by: therahedwig on August 11, 2014, 10:40:35 am
The reason I'm asking was because I was considering Dwarf Fortress as a story generator, and one of the key elements of writing a good story is character arcs.
Now, DF already gives us what 9 to 5 writers call 'character trees': Basically, the entirety of the thoughts and preferences screen. A character arc is the story of the cause of changes to a character's character tree. So, once changes to the thoughts and preferences screen become more possible, DF will be able to tell us much more varied stories than it does now. (Though, the stories it tells about people who refuse to change is pretty impressive/entertaining as well)
Post by: Talvieno on August 12, 2014, 10:33:57 am
Post by: Authority2 on August 12, 2014, 11:08:16 am
edit: Oh, a change that happened before my time. Ignore this post.
Post by: smjjames on August 12, 2014, 11:24:19 am
Toady, in version 34.08, traps started blocking caravan wagon access to the trade depot, and the wagons can't path over them. Minecart tracks do the same thing. Is this intended, or a bug? (link to report) (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5927)
Just to add a note of context, it's an ongoing debate within the community whether traps blocking wagons is a bug or not, some feel like it should be a feature or is intended, some feel like it's a bug, but there's no real consensus or agreement.
Post by: golemgunk on August 12, 2014, 04:43:01 pm
Quote
Removed requirement that a creature have a baby/child state to breed
does this mean the only requirement for a creature to breed now is a male and female caste?
Post by: Mr S on August 12, 2014, 06:29:09 pm
Post by: Neonivek on August 12, 2014, 06:34:57 pm
No, there will still need to be other relevant tags such as gestation time and clutch size or litter size. This means that they don't necessarily need to have a child life stage, like kittens or poults.
To admit childhood is pretty much the stage between infant helplessness and adult sexual activity.
Post by: Mr S on August 12, 2014, 06:40:29 pm
But it is also possible to have creatures that birth/hatch/spawn fully formed, but smaller individuals. Examples would be spiders, crocodiles, some fish, etc.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 12, 2014, 06:48:21 pm
No, there will still need to be other relevant tags such as gestation time and clutch size or litter size. This means that they don't necessarily need to have a child life stage, like kittens or poults.
There is no gestation time tag, and [LITTERSIZE] or [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] are not necessary for creatures to give birth. Clutch size probably is important for egg-layers though. I don't know what would happen to an egg-layer that did not have a clutch size.
If a gestation tag has been added, then the wiki needs to be updated, as there is not one listed there.
Post by: Mr S on August 12, 2014, 08:14:32 pm
Post by: smjjames on August 13, 2014, 08:35:42 am
Quote from: devlog
Fixed problem causing underground animals to be placed beyond their number (and then replaced at the higher number, and so on)
Whoo, at least the fortresses should be more manageable to go through now.
Post by: Shashu on August 13, 2014, 12:40:47 pm
Quote
Whoo, at least the fortresses should be more manageable to go through now.
Is that what was causing extreme slowness when walking through a fortress in adventure mode? I wonder if there's a similar bug affecting dark fortresses and their surroundings, which I've found almost impossible to approach due to the game slowing down.
Post by: Eric Blank on August 13, 2014, 02:42:00 pm
Post by: Talvieno on August 13, 2014, 02:49:49 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on August 13, 2014, 03:13:20 pm
Toady, in past versions, adding [GRASSTRAMPLE:50] to a creature would cause it to trample grass flat almost immediately, but in the current version (40.08) it appears to do nothing. Was this removed intentionally? If so, I'm curious as to why, and if it is coming back in the future.
(link to report) (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7981)
Post by: Talvieno on August 13, 2014, 03:27:32 pm
Post by: smjjames on August 13, 2014, 04:07:30 pm
QuoteWhoo, at least the fortresses should be more manageable to go through now.
Is that what was causing extreme slowness when walking through a fortress in adventure mode? I wonder if there's a similar bug affecting dark fortresses and their surroundings, which I've found almost impossible to approach due to the game slowing down.
Well, it's a similar problem in that it's badly overpopulated.
Quote from: bugtracker changelog
- 0004430: [Dwarf Mode -- Stockpiles] Large gems not moved to stockpile (Toady One) - resolved.
Yay! This one was particularily annoying. Might also fix some gem based artifacts not being stored.
Post by: Vattic on August 14, 2014, 07:54:11 am
Quote
Made invaders not come back as ghostsAre there plans to bring this back and make it functional? Haunted battlefields seem like a missed opportunity.
Post by: smjjames on August 14, 2014, 02:31:16 pm
Quote from: bugtracker changelog
- 0000895: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Hunting] Items disappear (become invisible) after getting pushed by flowing water, burning in magma, or encased in ice (Toady One) - resolved.
YAY! THANK YOU TOADY ONE! :D
Just out of curiosity (and to actually make a question for the green text), what was causing that bug to happen?
Post by: Untelligent on August 14, 2014, 02:38:16 pm
QuoteMade invaders not come back as ghostsAre there plans to bring this back and make it functional? Haunted battlefields seem like a missed opportunity.
There's a ton of night creature types that they've planned but not implemented, and there's certainly a ton of stuff with the existing night creatures that's planned but not implemented, so I'm gonna go with a "probably".
Stuff like this gets removed because it's causing problems and the framework to do it properly isn't done yet.
Post by: Footkerchief on August 14, 2014, 02:49:09 pm
Toady, in version 34.08, traps started blocking caravan wagon access to the trade depot, and the wagons can't path over them. Minecart tracks do the same thing. Is this intended, or a bug? (link to report) (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5927)
Just to add a note of context, it's an ongoing debate within the community whether traps blocking wagons is a bug or not, some feel like it should be a feature or is intended, some feel like it's a bug, but there's no real consensus or agreement.
This was just answered:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5927#c29047
My recollection is that this was an intentional change, and the code is consistent with that, though I don't have any specific notes about it. I like not having wagons going back and forth over pressure plates, anyway, though suggestions are welcome in the suggestion forum.
Post by: Dame de la Licorne on August 15, 2014, 03:32:04 pm
Loving the bug report spree, there are several that I've found annoying now on the resolved list. Yay! Here's my question: given the recent mention in the devlog of "Added embark warning if civ is dead", are there any plans to remove the hard-coded randomly generated traders/migrants that were implemented in response to many reports and/or complaints of "no traders/migrants" a couple of major releases ago? (I don't remember exactly when that was implemented.)
-Dame de la Licorne
Edit: Please ignore this question, it was based on faulty knowledge.
Post by: Talvieno on August 15, 2014, 08:35:38 pm
Hiya,Hardcoded-only traders and migrants have been gone for a long while now (I think since 34.xx). Except for the starting seven (and possibly the first migrant wave, but I can't recall specifically), dwarves are historical figures if possible. I've seen former caravan guards show up at my fortress, for instance, and migrants are... well, still randomly generated, but most definitely not sprung to life from nothingness. Having a dead civ means no more migrants, and no more merchants.
Loving the bug report spree, there are several that I've found annoying now on the resolved list. Yay! Here's my question: given the recent mention in the devlog of "Added embark warning if civ is dead", are there any plans to remove the hard-coded randomly generated traders/migrants that were implemented in response to many reports and/or complaints of "no traders/migrants" a couple of major releases ago? (I don't remember exactly when that was implemented.)
-Dame de la Licorne
Post by: King Mir on August 15, 2014, 08:48:06 pm
All migrants are historic figures, until historic figures run out. You should still get non-historic migrants after that. Those are randomly generated, as usual.
There are two migrant waves that always come. After that, if your civ is dead, no migrants are supposed to come. As far as I know, this is still supposed to be the case. It seems to be possible to have no outpost liaison in the latest version, but still get traders and migrants, but that may be a bug with liaison succession, not dead civs.
So if your civ is small, but not dead you should get randomly generated migrants.
Post by: Talvieno on August 15, 2014, 08:55:42 pm
Post by: CaptainArchmage on August 15, 2014, 10:24:36 pm
Quote
Added pole-setting parameters for world gen, allowed north+south pole and no-pole options
Wait, so we can now have a world with two poles, or no poles at all? What happens with the no-pole options? Probably the release will hit before this question can be answered.
Post by: smjjames on August 15, 2014, 10:53:49 pm
The latest devlog showed this:QuoteAdded pole-setting parameters for world gen, allowed north+south pole and no-pole options
Wait, so we can now have a world with two poles, or no poles at all? What happens with the no-pole options? Probably the release will hit before this question can be answered.
Maybe it's in a radial fashion?
Post by: MrWiggles on August 16, 2014, 01:02:48 am
Post by: thvaz on August 16, 2014, 01:33:30 am
I would hazzard a guess, to say that the no pole option, is as it is now.
Did you never see a glacier in DF? The option as it is now is that we always have one pole, ramdonly choose between north and south.
Post by: hermes on August 16, 2014, 03:21:19 am
Post by: reality.auditor on August 16, 2014, 08:18:23 am
The Suggestions phase begins, woot!What suggestion phase? He said (fortunately) that he is back to bugs, at least for time being. I am happy that he actually checks suggestions forum, though. It will motivate many people to post there with better ideas.
It still worries me, as there are still tons of bugs to fix and I see that Toady already gets bored. Pray that your "favourite" bug will be fixed before Toady has enough and start doing something fun (adding more
In fact, I would like to see (after decent multimonth bugfix phase, of course... hey, I can dream) suggestions phase culuminating in bigger release full of mini-features, fixes to non-bugs and other small, small things. Details are where devil lies, after all, and in my opinion DF needs some polishing around rough edges.
Post by: smjjames on August 16, 2014, 08:26:05 am
Post by: therahedwig on August 16, 2014, 08:31:47 am
Quote
It still worries me, as there are still tons of bugs to fix and I see that Toady already gets bored. Pray that your "favourite" bug will be fixed before Toady has enough and start doing something fun (adding more bugs features). IMO it is bad to change gears so soon, because next bugfix crunch will be after next major release - in other words, in 2-3 years.Whoa, dramatic much?
1) I don't know if you've ever developed any project, but briefly doing something else is not a sign of boredom, it's a sign of making sure you don't turn into a vegetable while keeping your output high :)
2) 2014 is very likely to have been the longest release cycle, because Toady said in an interview he 'finally has enough clay to play with'. Basically, implementing new features is going to be significantly easier because all the base frameworks are in the game now.
(This is why a lot of people are super excited about this release despite it not bringing 'much' to fort mode.)
Post by: reality.auditor on August 16, 2014, 09:57:49 am
1) I don't know if you've ever developed any project, but briefly doing something else is not a sign of boredom, it's a sign of making sure you don't turn into a vegetable while keeping your output high :)I know it is possible he did it just for a change.
2) 2014 is very likely to have been the longest release cycle, because Toady said in an interview he 'finally has enough clay to play with'.I will believe it when it happens. There was thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140305.0) showing (unintentionally, poor guy that created thread tried to show opposite, but failed epically) ugly trend of releases to be longer, and longer, and longer... interestingly, there are distinct two tiers of release lengths.
Post by: therahedwig on August 16, 2014, 10:18:02 am
I will believe it when it happens. There was thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140305.0) showing (unintentionally, poor guy that created thread tried to show opposite, but failed epically) ugly trend of releases to be longer, and longer, and longer... interestingly, there are distinct two tiers of release lengths.I respect that you wish to do that, but all I have to say to that thread is that applying statistics to a single person's habits is a really bad idea to begin with, on multiple levels. :/
Post by: Talvieno on August 16, 2014, 10:31:02 am
Hiya,Perhaps I need to clarify as well... To the bolded portion specifically: This hasn't been the case since 40d. Ever since 31.xx, a dead civ means no more migrants, and no more traders.
Given the immediate responses to my most recent question, I wanted to clarify it. Originally in the 31.xx releases, if your chosen civ was dead, the fort never received traders or migrants after the first autumn or so. It was then changed at some point in response to confusion/questions/(possible complaints?) from the players so that now, even if the civ has been dead hundreds of years, every fort gets randomly-generated traders and migrants until it hits the pop cap.I was wondering if there were plans to remove the random generation of traders for dead civs now that there is a warning saying that the civ is dead? So that, if the civ is dead, the fort doesn't receive dwarven traders (at least until ToadyOne gets around to implementing trading routes and relationships with specific traders as part of the caravan arc).
-Dame de la Licorne
Post by: Dame de la Licorne on August 16, 2014, 10:39:04 am
I could have sworn that a fort still got traders, even if the chosen civ is dead. But apparently I'm wrong.
-Dame de la Licorne
Post by: therahedwig on August 16, 2014, 10:46:58 am
Post by: Untelligent on August 16, 2014, 10:48:17 am
I would hazzard a guess, to say that the no pole option, is as it is now.
The one-pole option is what the current worlds are (one pole at one end of the map and an equatorial (hot) region at the other). A two-pole option would have the hot region in the middle. A no-pole world wouldn't have any latitude-based temperature scaling, just normal variance like you see with the other world parameters.
Post by: Dirst on August 16, 2014, 02:28:35 pm
And the Flatlanders are still left without an option for a central pole... and I want the four Elephants and the giant turtle, too.I would hazzard a guess, to say that the no pole option, is as it is now.
The one-pole option is what the current worlds are (one pole at one end of the map and an equatorial (hot) region at the other). A two-pole option would have the hot region in the middle. A no-pole world wouldn't have any latitude-based temperature scaling, just normal variance like you see with the other world parameters.
"What's this? After a lot of rock, we seem to be mining through... hide?!"
More seriously, do the new map layout options imply some kind of edge-wrapping behavior?
Post by: monk12 on August 16, 2014, 02:33:28 pm
I will believe it when it happens. There was thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140305.0) showing (unintentionally, poor guy that created thread tried to show opposite, but failed epically) ugly trend of releases to be longer, and longer, and longer... interestingly, there are distinct two tiers of release lengths.I respect that you wish to do that, but all I have to say to that thread is that applying statistics to a single person's habits is a really bad idea to begin with, on multiple levels. :/
Yeah, I'll give that theory more credence when somebody shows me another 20+ year development cycle that did the same.
And the Flatlanders are still left without an option for a central pole... and I want the four Elephants and the giant turtle, too.
"What's this? After a lot of rock, we seem to be mining through... hide?!"
So what does this make the demons, then?
Post by: Talvieno on August 16, 2014, 02:44:30 pm
Very badass white blood cells.And the Flatlanders are still left without an option for a central pole... and I want the four Elephants and the giant turtle, too.
"What's this? After a lot of rock, we seem to be mining through... hide?!"
So what does this make the demons, then?
Post by: Rockphed on August 16, 2014, 02:57:37 pm
Talvieno,
I could have sworn that a fort still got traders, even if the chosen civ is dead. But apparently I'm wrong.
-Dame de la Licorne
I know that in 40d it was possible to run a fort with no migrants or dwarf traders if you had a dead civ. If your civ was only almost dead, like say 1 or 2 people hiding in the back end of nowhere (or the migrants fleeing your just abandoned fort), you would still get migrants and traders.
Post by: Urist_McDagger on August 16, 2014, 03:04:29 pm
Post by: King Mir on August 16, 2014, 08:59:45 pm
I have thought about making a mod where all rocks are organic tissue. . .
"What's this? After a lot of rock, we seem to be mining through... hide?!"
Not that I'm gonna. It was part of brainstorming how to make DF into a completely different game.
Post by: Eric Blank on August 16, 2014, 09:25:53 pm
Have you ever thought of implementing possible mutations in the game? For example above ground cattle living underground lose their eyesight but gain heightened hearing or something similar? Basically just readapting different creatures to the biome they're found in?
That should probably go in the suggestion forum, but there has been some talk of this, iirc, for birth defects, regional effects and as a way for hybridization to occur between two species. That was years ago, though.
Post by: Trif on August 17, 2014, 02:55:43 am
Have you ever thought of implementing possible mutations in the game? For example above ground cattle living underground lose their eyesight but gain heightened hearing or something similar? Basically just readapting different creatures to the biome they're found in?
From DF Talk #20:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_20_transcript.html
Capntastic: So the deep down dwarves, when they come up, maybe they should just be very very allergic to the sun?
Toady: Well they will be cave adapted.
Rainseeker: Exactly.
Capntastic: But extremely cave adapted, have another tier.
Toady: Maybe blind, they'll just lose their eyes.
Capntastic: They'll be blind and they'll be completely white, you know, like those cave fish.
Toady: Beardless, beardless, no, they'll have flesh that replaces the beard or something like these tendrils that come out..
Capntastic: Fleshy beards?
Toady: Translucent fleshy beards that generate light, but they don't have eyes, so it doesn't mean anything. And yeah, they have alcohol detectors in their stomachs and so on, they waddle around and roll in the mud. And yeah, so that's about like a dwarf. That's what we expect from a dwarf.
Rainseeker: Ya, that's pretty good.
Toady: A Cthulu-esque mob that comes out of the deep.
Capntastic: But they're friendly and they talk with a Scottish accent.
Toady: That's right. Scottish deep spawn. It's interesting being in this position, because now we've got all kinds of choices. I'm not sure those are the choices we're going to make, but got all kinds of choices, so it should be cool.
Post by: Inarius on August 17, 2014, 04:06:54 am
Post by: smjjames on August 17, 2014, 09:28:02 am
Post by: Sephimaru on August 17, 2014, 04:43:07 pm
Also: Awsome how many bugs are getting squished. Does anybody know how much he has fixed, percentage wise?
Post by: King Mir on August 17, 2014, 06:27:24 pm
I really, really like the pole options.233 bugs were fixed since 40.02. There are about 2400 unresolved bugs in the bug tracker... So 9%. But a lot of those are really old bugs that nobody's bothered to close.
Also: Awsome how many bugs are getting squished. Does anybody know how much he has fixed, percentage wise?
Post by: Shinziril on August 17, 2014, 09:17:54 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on August 17, 2014, 11:41:16 pm
Post by: thvaz on August 18, 2014, 02:33:36 am
We also dont know how many older outstanding bugs, are no longer reliviant, as they've disappeared from the changes due to the last content update. There maybe few score more bugs that are gone too just from that.
There aren't many, most of the relevant ones were already identified and marked as fixed in 0.40.01. There are many, many "esoterical" bugs, that happens sometimes when all the conditions are just right (or wrong) and are very hard to reproduce.
Post by: Farmerbob on August 21, 2014, 02:18:26 am
"Adjusted projectile firing speed which became broken during wagon fix" was one of the recent patch notes.
I really would like to know how projectile firing speeds became broken due to fixing wagons.
I am baffled as to how the two things might be related.
On a side note, I can very easily imagine a dwarf muttering that they would "Fix your little red wagon" as they take aim aim at some elf. So maybe there is a connection between wagons and projectiles after all!
*grin*
Post by: Footkerchief on August 21, 2014, 08:03:21 am
This might be a little strange here, but I have to ask.
"Adjusted projectile firing speed which became broken during wagon fix" was one of the recent patch notes.
I really would like to know how projectile firing speeds became broken due to fixing wagons.
I am baffled as to how the two things might be related.
On a side note, I can very easily imagine a dwarf muttering that they would "Fix your little red wagon" as they take aim aim at some elf. So maybe there is a connection between wagons and projectiles after all!
*grin*
I don't know the precise answer, but the wagon fix was "Removed some vestigial code stopping wagons from moving properly after move/attack speed split". So the fix ended up affecting creature speeds in general.
Post by: Farmerbob on August 21, 2014, 11:44:51 pm
This might be a little strange here, but I have to ask.
"Adjusted projectile firing speed which became broken during wagon fix" was one of the recent patch notes.
I really would like to know how projectile firing speeds became broken due to fixing wagons.
I am baffled as to how the two things might be related.
On a side note, I can very easily imagine a dwarf muttering that they would "Fix your little red wagon" as they take aim aim at some elf. So maybe there is a connection between wagons and projectiles after all!
*grin*
I don't know the precise answer, but the wagon fix was "Removed some vestigial code stopping wagons from moving properly after move/attack speed split". So the fix ended up affecting creature speeds in general.
I know there is probably a perfectly valid reason for it, but it's also possible that there was something funny in there too! I was imagining dwarven crossbow wielders loading wagons into crossbows in some circumstances or something :)
Post by: Keldane on August 22, 2014, 12:07:45 am
I was imagining dwarven crossbow wielders loading wagons into crossbows in some circumstances or something :)This seems like a reasonable explanation for how embarking can drop wagons onto inaccessible roofs, pillars, and other strange formations.
"Load up the wagonbow, Urist! We have orders to settle a new land!"
Post by: Cobbler89 on August 23, 2014, 09:41:18 am
Quote
•Made attacker always look at target upon initiating attackHow am I supposed to fight gorgons now??
Well, actually, in all seriousness, if you don't mind my asking: How did this make a difference? I thought vision mostly mattered for sneaking, and you can't attack someone you don't already see, so I'm having a hard time guessing what the impact of that bug was.
Post by: smjjames on August 23, 2014, 09:56:53 am
Quote•Made attacker always look at target upon initiating attackHow am I supposed to fight gorgons now??
Do what Perseus did? lol
Post by: reality.auditor on August 23, 2014, 04:26:25 pm
How did this make a difference?I bet it is related to at least some cases of victim not retaliating in reaction of attack from player.
Post by: Rockphed on August 23, 2014, 07:50:23 pm
Quote•Made attacker always look at target upon initiating attackHow am I supposed to fight gorgons now??
Well, actually, in all seriousness, if you don't mind my asking: How did this make a difference? I thought vision mostly mattered for sneaking, and you can't attack someone you don't already see, so I'm having a hard time guessing what the impact of that bug was.
If you attack someone who cannot see you, sometimes they parry and strike back. Toady essentially made it so that even if you had perfect concealment, you were visible to people who you attacked in melee, and if they attacked back, they see you.
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 24, 2014, 12:26:38 pm
If there's a cardinal sin of fantasy, it's how little insight you get into the genuine medieval and classical era, especially the life of the average person.
Post by: Talvieno on August 24, 2014, 12:59:04 pm
Also that attacking creatures simply weren't always turning to face their target. Basically, you could backstab someone while they were attacking you... or attack someone while facing away.Quote•Made attacker always look at target upon initiating attackHow am I supposed to fight gorgons now??
Well, actually, in all seriousness, if you don't mind my asking: How did this make a difference? I thought vision mostly mattered for sneaking, and you can't attack someone you don't already see, so I'm having a hard time guessing what the impact of that bug was.
If you attack someone who cannot see you, sometimes they parry and strike back. Toady essentially made it so that even if you had perfect concealment, you were visible to people who you attacked in melee, and if they attacked back, they see you.
Post by: King Kravoka on August 24, 2014, 03:32:00 pm
Post by: BenLubar on August 24, 2014, 05:15:50 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on August 24, 2014, 09:11:35 pm
How do you intend to get players in the medieval mindset?
If there's a cardinal sin of fantasy, it's how little insight you get into the genuine medieval and classical era, especially the life of the average person.
Is there a reason to assume that "get players in the medieval mindset" is a development goal?
When will you work on the ability to attack other sites?
While there's no specific timeline, this feature is on the dev page, so it'll probably get done sooner than the vast amount of stuff that's not on the dev page:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Military
Dwarven armies
Ability to send out fortress dwarves to lead larger groups of surrounding dwarves out around mid-level maps (or just go alone)
Ability to send equipment and fortress dwarves out to train surrounding dwarves
Ability to attack sites and entity populations with your dwarven armies
Ability to set fires and select supplies to haul back when sacking a site
Post by: Cobbler89 on August 25, 2014, 06:12:36 am
And now another curiousity...
Quote
•Fixed problem allow the player to become invisible among many units even when clearly visibleThis is obviously an issue if it's happening due to, well, anything other than a reasonable "blends in with the crowd" evaluation. But I am curious: Is being able to hide by blending in with a crowd something that is planned or might otherwise be going in as a feature someday?
Thanks again for all the bugfixes, Toady! (And, again, for... Dwarf Fortress! Just Dwarf Fortress!)
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 25, 2014, 06:29:44 am
How do you intend to get players in the medieval mindset?
If there's a cardinal sin of fantasy, it's how little insight you get into the genuine medieval and classical era, especially the life of the average person.
Is there a reason to assume that "get players in the medieval mindset" is a development goal?
done sooner than the vast amount of stuff that's not on the dev page:
You see why i make assumptions :P.
Post by: Footkerchief on August 25, 2014, 08:55:32 am
Quote•Fixed problem allow the player to become invisible among many units even when clearly visibleThis is obviously an issue if it's happening due to, well, anything other than a reasonable "blends in with the crowd" evaluation. But I am curious: Is being able to hide by blending in with a crowd something that is planned or might otherwise be going in as a feature someday?
Several powergoals touch on hiding in crowds:
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
PowerGoal66, IT WAS WORTH THE TIME, (Future): The guards are hunting you because you have a stolen diamond. You dip into a group of mourners that are a viewing a body just as the guards appear. They dare not stop you from slipping into the solemn crowd. You pretend to mourn the body, holding its head in your hand as you hide the diamond in the corpse's mouth. Although you are subsequently apprehended and imprisoned for twenty years, after you are released, you dig up the body and claim the prize.
PowerGoal88, YOUR NAUGHTY CHILD, (Future): You and your sons follow a train of people from various towns going to see the prophet Shangris. When you arrive, Shangris tells people to overthrow the king. Shangris also says he is parentless -- that he sprang up from a hole in the ground. You leap up from the crowd and claim truthfully to be Shangris's father. Your sons come up and say that they are his brothers. Shangris holds a knife to your neck, screaming that he has no father. Your sons step back. The confusion disorients the crowd, allowing your evil son Shangris to escape.
In general, given all the stealth/disguise stuff that's on the dev page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), I think the impact of crowds on those mechanics will be respected.
You see why i make assumptions :P.
There are many dev goals, but I don't think "get players in the medieval mindset" is one of them per se.
Post by: thedrelle on August 25, 2014, 12:07:37 pm
Quote
Stopped necromancer towers from doing various inappropriate townish things that lead to tower proliferation etc
LOL Mental image: The tower that dreamed of being a town.
Post by: PigtailLlama on August 26, 2014, 09:26:32 am
Post by: thedrelle on August 26, 2014, 11:58:23 am
I'd love to see a fruit tree-eating dwarf now. Just standing there, gnawing on the bark of the uprooted tree ignoring the fruit on it, while spiting the elves.
on the object is an engraving of a dwarf, a tree and some elves. The dwarf is biting the tree. the elves are making a plaintive gesture.
Post by: Little Kingpin on August 27, 2014, 11:09:49 am
For that matter, could we end up with a culture in the world that keeps moving around without settling down, like medieval Gypsies?
Post by: Dame de la Licorne on August 27, 2014, 11:29:54 am
Are we ever going to have non-dwarves try to immigrate? Like human refugees show up looking for safety and we can either accept them as citizens or lock them out until they move on? Or hurl magma at them, that works too.
For that matter, could we end up with a culture in the world that keeps moving around without settling down, like medieval Gypsies?
I'd like to add to this, will we eventually be able to get dwarven immigrants from another civ? Particularly if our chosen embark civ is already dead or dies during fort mode gameplay.
-Dame de la Licorne
Post by: Eric Blank on August 27, 2014, 02:09:02 pm
Hiya,Are we ever going to have non-dwarves try to immigrate? Like human refugees show up looking for safety and we can either accept them as citizens or lock them out until they move on? Or hurl magma at them, that works too.
I'd like to add to this, will we eventually be able to get dwarven immigrants from another civ? Particularly if our chosen embark civ is already dead or dies during fort mode gameplay.
-Dame de la Licorne
Yes on both counts, presumably. Toady does intend to add the possibility of multi-racial or species fortress management, and there will in the future be travelers, potentially refugees, visiting for various reasons. Travelers showing up is, as I understand, waiting for functional inns to be operable in your fortress (so you can like offer them a room and food/drink/other goods for a price), which was going to happen soon-ish, but not tomorrow.
For that matter, could we end up with a culture in the world that keeps moving around without settling down, like medieval Gypsies?
in the last FoTF post, toady said this:
Quote from: Toady One
QuoteQuote from: MaskedMiner
In one of older version there were those unnamed whatever underground animal men civilizations, what is the plan for those? Is every type of animal men going to have their own tribal civilization or were those 7 underground "civilizations" placeholders for something else?
The underground ones were always a bit more civilized equipment-wise, but I don't know that the aboveground ones are going to remain in their animal population state. We'll probably be in better shape once we have things like better-defined nomadic human pops.
These nomadic populations, when Toady implements them, will probably be something like gypsies or at least nomadic hunter-gatherer societies. And if they're defined through the raws like normal civs, they could be made into any number of things.
Post by: smjjames on August 29, 2014, 03:12:28 pm
At least sort of fixed according to Toady One.
Post by: Simca on August 31, 2014, 04:51:50 am
I meant if there are going to be MULTIPLE different randomized demon types
Like there seems to be three basic categories for spoilery vault guardian monsters :P The animal like one, the humanoid one and huge monster one. Are there going to be multiple different demon categories or are they going to be same "Humanoid goblin leaders and ones you can unleash by digging adamantinum are just as random as forbidden beasts" so far? Like, I remember demons from hell being anything from salt six legged anteaters to floating cloud with wings to humanoid demons like goblin leader ones.
But thanks for answering the other questions :)
As far as I can tell, the wiki is just incomplete in the entry for Demons and there are truly multiple demon types with different characteristics. For example, Phantoms seem to dodge very well but are otherwise weak but have a strong attack. Banshees also dodge very well but are weak in both defense and offense. Brutes are absolute monsters with incredible combat skills - 1 brute obliterated my military (and then killed every dwarf in the rest of my fort) - by putting his axe through their heads or necks within 1-2 attacks in every fight.
It only seems like the randomization is which animal the demon is based on, as well as the element it embodies (hatred, fear, blinding, etc), but there still appear to be core 'types' of demons, unlike Forgotten Beasts (who are only distinguishable by the "watch out for its X ability!" messages).
Post by: Knight Otu on August 31, 2014, 05:12:14 am
As far as I can tell, the wiki is just incomplete in the entry for Demons and there are truly multiple demon types with different characteristics. For example, Phantoms seem to dodge very well but are otherwise weak but have a strong attack. Banshees also dodge very well but are weak in both defense and offense. Brutes are absolute monsters with incredible combat skills - 1 brute obliterated my military (and then killed every dwarf in the rest of my fort) - by putting his axe through their heads or necks within 1-2 attacks in every fight.No, the various demons are pretty much identical in terms of attributes, natural skills, and personality, and their natural attacks depend on their form. There are only two divisions of demons - demons, and unique demons (the demon lords that raise the slade spires - they have higher natural skills for example).
Post by: Taffer on August 31, 2014, 01:05:02 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on August 31, 2014, 01:57:38 pm
I can't seem to find this issue on the bug tracker, but all historical figures blink blue in Adventure mode when graphics are turned on. This is not only distracting, but could confuse new players. Are there any plans to fix this blinking?
2278 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2278)? If it's on the tracker, it'll probably get fixed.
Post by: Taffer on August 31, 2014, 04:45:05 pm
I can't seem to find this issue on the bug tracker, but all historical figures blink blue in Adventure mode when graphics are turned on. This is not only distracting, but could confuse new players. Are there any plans to fix this blinking?
2278 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2278)? If it's on the tracker, it'll probably get fixed.
Thank you kindly.
Post by: Putnam on August 31, 2014, 04:59:23 pm
Post by: Taffer on August 31, 2014, 05:42:45 pm
Oh, okay, legendaries and other blinkers, I thought you meant all historical figures. That'd be bad. Historical figures include all of your fortress members and basically anyone who has a name at all.
Should have phrased it better, but I still think it's pretty bad. It includes your own character, for example, and I personally find it very annoying. At any rate, I hadn't noticed that bug in the bug tracker.
Post by: Toady One on August 31, 2014, 08:09:00 pm
Quote from: Dame de la Licorne
Do you have an idea as to how much you still need to implement before being able to tackle various fort mode start scenarios?
As in, being able to do a hermit fort scenario without having to kill off six of the starting seven? Or some sort of last dwarves/generational scenario without having to re-roll fifty thousand times (exaggerated, yes, but the point stands) to get six of the starting seven to be age matches? And so on.
Note that I'm not asking "when", I'm asking "what still needs to be done before."
Something like a hermit scenario doesn't take much of anything. Others take more stuff, like having hill dwarves or more mechanics involving religions. The specific ones you brought up don't require additional features, just an interface that interacts with the breadth of current variables.
Quote from: Quietust
Looking into interaction details revealed two new breath attack types: TRAILING_ITEM_FLOW and UNDIRECTED_ITEM_CLOUD. How exactly are they used? Do they work with both CDI and IT_MATERIAL?
(I'm guessing "no" for IT_MATERIAL, since it's only used with weather effects, and there's no WEATHER_CREEPING_ITEM or WEATHER_FALLING_ITEM, as amusing as it would be to have it rain fish or have a cloud of locusts drift by)
Knight Otu put up a CDI example, and I think that's how they work, since they operate through creatures. The regional reactions are reasonably malnourished in terms of the attention they've received.
Quote from: Witty
With the current model of morale, do diffrent creatures exude diffrent levels of horror? IE is a dragon more horrifying to a militia dwarf than say an alligator or a gazelle?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
They mostly judge by size and special attacks, in terms of morale during a fight. They don't have a pure horror reaction to the big monsters though.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: Talvieno
Toady, in past versions, adding [GRASSTRAMPLE:50] to a creature would cause it to trample grass flat almost immediately, but in the current version (40.08) it appears to do nothing. Was this removed intentionally? If so, I'm curious as to why, and if it is coming back in the future.
I don't recall changing anything intentionally, and the combination of adding trees and the attack/move split stuff could very well have messed it up, if it's a new problem for this set of releases.
Quote from: Vattic
(Made invaders not come back as ghosts)
Are there plans to bring this back and make it functional? Haunted battlefields seem like a missed opportunity.
We have some notes regarding both old battlefields and various hauntings/ghosty stuff, so it's quite possible it'll happen on the long journey. I'm not sure I'd call it a missed opportunity, since there's a lot of work to do to make it worthwhile.
Quote from: smjjames
(Items disappear after getting pushed by flowing water, burning in magma, or encased in ice)
Just out of curiosity (and to actually make a question for the green text), what was causing that bug to happen?
The items were removed from the ground when pushed, and then there was a section that had the item sometimes be redirected 45 degrees off so that the pushing of piles wouldn't be 100% orderly. Finally, the item was placed back on the ground at its new location. The problem was that if the redirection failed because an obstacle was detected, it bailed early and never replaced the item properly on the ground. That's why tight hallways made it happen more often. A lot of the item's information was retained overall, hence its appearance on certain lists and so on.
Quote from: Dirst
do the new map layout options imply some kind of edge-wrapping behavior?
Nope. That's a time-consuming change that isn't likely to make it in any time soon... probably almost as annoying to add as whole other planes of existence in the end.
Quote from: Farmerbob
I really would like to know how projectile firing speeds became broken due to fixing wagons.
There was an old flag from before the attack/move split that stopped people from moving too often, and it was messing up wagon speed. But projectile firing delays were also being governed by that flag (as that was one of the actions that didn't get updated to the new system). So there was still a delay, but it ticked off many times faster than it was supposed to.
Quote from: Cobbler89
(Made attacker always look at target upon initiating attack)
Well, actually, in all seriousness, if you don't mind my asking: How did this make a difference? I thought vision mostly mattered for sneaking, and you can't attack someone you don't already see, so I'm having a hard time guessing what the impact of that bug was.
I was having a problem where, after doing a sneak attack, the target would correctly initiate an attack on me (since they now know where you are briefly), but their vision cone would remain pointing the wrong way for a long while. It looked weird. So just a technical change more or less.
Quote from: BenLubar
How much data about historical figures is stored after that figure dies? Is, for example, the hair color of that person retained after they're killed?
Yeah, it maintains the unit definition where that is stored on disk without cleaning it out and can load it from there as necessary (for a body, for example). There are a few pieces that are deleted for historical figures that die in world generation, and a lot of information is never generated for them. There's a spot for the historical troll lair victims for instance where it creates the physical description on the spot for the first time so it can make the bodies correctly, if I remember. Same thing for historical zombies and mummies.
Post by: thvaz on September 01, 2014, 06:13:48 am
Post by: Knight Otu on September 01, 2014, 07:11:34 am
Post by: Dame de la Licorne on September 01, 2014, 07:13:27 am
Post by: Inarius on September 01, 2014, 08:43:40 am
Long live the cause !
Post by: Urist McVoyager on September 01, 2014, 05:24:33 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on September 01, 2014, 05:30:44 pm
Here's a question, though I don't know if anyone else asked it or if it's been answered: I was under the impression that we'd be able to interact with Hill Dwarves to some degree in Fortress mode in this release, but I haven't seen anything about it. What needs to be done before that comes available? I'm just talking about little things like being able to send people out to help them, nothing major like sending out campaign forces en-mass to attack others.Those two things, probably would use very similar feature or use the same underlying features.
Post by: Dirst on September 01, 2014, 07:45:45 pm
Quote from: Dirstdo the new map layout options imply some kind of edge-wrapping behavior?
Nope. That's a time-consuming change that isn't likely to make it in any time soon... probably almost as annoying to add as whole other planes of existence in the end.
Thanks for all of your hard work. I might humbly suggest map-wrapping (or at least some notion of non-flat maps) before moving on to planes of existence. Hacking in non-Euclidian geometry on one world is hard enough, hacking it into a multiverse simultaneously might prove... difficult.
On a completely different topic, the current tantrum and insanity systems are "placeholders" but do you have a broad-strokes idea of what needs to be done before this part of the AI (artificial insanity) engine is fleshed out? I would love to see someone actually appoint a yak to a noble position and mean it! This would be a legitimate loyalty cascade between loyalty to the noble and loyalty to the country.
Post by: MrWiggles on September 01, 2014, 10:12:13 pm
Post by: Gashcozokon on September 02, 2014, 03:19:06 am
And animals being given official appointments, weren't unheard of for medieval Europe.
heh Medieval Europe; They still do stuff like that.
Quote
(In 1986, the ferret was named the official mascot of the Massachusetts Colonial Navy, and Pokey the ferret [the first ferret that held the Navy's mascot title] spawned one of the first-ever lines of stuffed ferret toys.) (http://www.cypresskeep.com/Ferretfiles/Domestic-FUSA.htm)
While I'm in this thread I might as well ask a question: Could [Give/Take] profile options be added to the Depot? If a hauling route were linked and it's endpoints included in pathing for getting items from the deep to trade it could save a lot of steps if the Dwarves could count a cart as closer than dragging stuff the full way.
Post by: thedrelle on September 02, 2014, 12:06:23 pm
would we be able to send dwarves from our fort into the hill dwarf communities for any purpose? my though is that useless dwarves could be instructed to join the hill dwarves to help them in some way or another.
Post by: Talvieno on September 02, 2014, 12:18:15 pm
here's an interesting question, or perhaps just a suggestion:I can't link you specifically to where it was said (FotF somewhere, I think), but the short answer is that yes, that's planned for the future.
would we be able to send dwarves from our fort into the hill dwarf communities for any purpose? my though is that useless dwarves could be instructed to join the hill dwarves to help them in some way or another.
Post by: Valtam on September 02, 2014, 01:08:27 pm
here's an interesting question, or perhaps just a suggestion:I can't link you specifically to where it was said (FotF somewhere, I think), but the short answer is that yes, that's planned for the future.
would we be able to send dwarves from our fort into the hill dwarf communities for any purpose? my though is that useless dwarves could be instructed to join the hill dwarves to help them in some way or another.
Here it is, from DF Talk #12, it's a large one (I've bolded and colored the relevant parts)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also relevant: in that same DF Talk, there's a question right there from Rainseeker that says "Are you thinking that you'd allow dwarves to train, or you could set up training that happens off the map, basically?"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hope it helps.
Post by: Talvieno on September 02, 2014, 01:30:47 pm
Post by: Areyar on September 02, 2014, 02:32:54 pm
Do you have a formed idea how hill dwarf<>Fortress trade/transport will be formulated for the player-fort?
It would be kind of funny to see armies of wrestlers tromping around the map if one 'forgets' to send swords.
Or would this work by conscripting hill dwarves for a 50 dorf axemob, these show up at your depot or wherever and pick up the required equipment from your stockpiles, then leave to fill their slot in the 'roaming army entity'?
Will armies train their troops and if so where? In the field or in barracks at a specified home-site?
About taverns and inns:
Will there be more types of transient visitors from surrounding sites besides the usual traders and envoys?
For example: visiting relatives, farmers from a hill trading some greens at a 'foodshop' for coin then buying manufactured goods, like mugs and socks from a 'goods shop'. Adventurers! looking for good equipment, supplies and quests/rumours. etc. (You did say that the economy will return. :D )
Post by: Dirst on September 02, 2014, 02:36:44 pm
About taverns and inns:I like this idea, unless they are ‼Adventurers‼ then I'd rather keep them away from the booze :)
Will there be more types of transient visitors from surrounding sites besides the usual traders and envoys?
For example: visiting relatives, farmers from a hill trading some greens at a 'foodshop' for coin then buying manufactured goods, like mugs and socks from a 'goods shop'. Adventurers! looking for good equipment, supplies and quests/rumours. etc.
Post by: Eric Blank on September 02, 2014, 02:41:18 pm
Post by: Areyar on September 02, 2014, 02:41:39 pm
edit: Oh my! I just generated a world in 0.40.10 and got some major towerspam. Gonna see how many death-gods there are...(6) then try to meet some. heheeheeee!
Post by: smjjames on September 02, 2014, 04:13:30 pm
Indeed. one more job for the sheriff. or !!hammerer!!
edit: Oh my! I just generated a world in 0.40.10 and got some major towerspam. Gonna see how many death-gods there are...(6) then try to meet some. heheeheeee!
This just got fixed (again), apparently the towers were still trying to act like towns, so Toady One turned off that stuff for now.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6691
Post by: StagnantSoul on September 02, 2014, 09:34:20 pm
Post by: Valtam on September 02, 2014, 09:52:56 pm
About taverns and inns:I like this idea, unless they are ‼Adventurers‼ then I'd rather keep them away from the booze :)
Will there be more types of transient visitors from surrounding sites besides the usual traders and envoys?
For example: visiting relatives, farmers from a hill trading some greens at a 'foodshop' for coin then buying manufactured goods, like mugs and socks from a 'goods shop'. Adventurers! looking for good equipment, supplies and quests/rumours. etc.
This specific question is covered in a DF Talk episode. Basically Toady plans for a wide array of characters to hang out at the inns/taverns. Mainly adventurers, but bandits can also be around there and maybe cause a bit of a stirrup, but not always. With bandits and multirracial civilizations there might be also a chance to have goblins peacefully strolling around your fort. Implementing music and musical performance could lead to wandering bards. Hopefully we could also see liars and con-artists impersonating all the above people and scamming the hell out of our dwarves.
The actual quote is this one:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Mercenaries and swords for hire. That's pretty rad.
RIght now, as the world advances, people tend to be more and more related between themselves, with historical figures having a lot of cousins, aunts, brothers and stuff. If visiting relatives are implemented, we could expect huge family meetings per dwarf (with all its deadly consequences) and related shenanigans. It might be pretty cool.
Quote from: StagnantSoul
It would be great to send an army marching off to attack neighbours. Maybe you're at war with the elves, and you want to wipe out the elves that have been attacking you? Send thirty tough dwarves after them, keeping a few home to cover goblin defence, and when your soldiers return home, they'd have goods from the elves. No more elves attacking you, or maybe you could have an option to show some mercy, and the next caravan to come by has a diplomat, offering lower prices for peace. This could be a use for mounts too, send your dwarves off on some mounts and they'll get to the enemy faster and carry more. If you raided goblins, you could get rare war creatures, like trained ogres and cave dragons.
You're supposed to be able to do even more than that! Not just sending your elite, fortress-groomed dwarves into the fray, but also leading a pack of drunks and poorly trained militia from the hill sites to where the battle rages. Spoils of war and loot surely is planned, although I can't remember where I have seen that. Maybe it was a power goal or something like that.
Post by: bluephoenix on September 03, 2014, 04:35:32 am
Who knows maybe it'll be there in a year or two.
Post by: Kogan Loloklam on September 03, 2014, 02:45:08 pm
Are you planning on creating a situation similar to Fear/Hate or such ingrained into a civilization similar to animal training and other "developments"? Or any other morale Fear/Hate kind of emergent behavior that changes on a cultural level from exposure?
If a site is subjected to tons of tiger attacks over time, and the Elves who go to subjugate it field war tigers, will it induce fear? How about when the elves occupy the site, which has goblins living peacefully in it. Will they murder the goblins because all elves from that culture know the only good goblin is a dead goblin despite anything said individual goblin may or may not have done.
Real life examples:
Racism
Bigotry
Hatred of Wolves
War Elephants (Okay, this one is more of an example of how much fear a good mount can be...)
And that also goes to slaughtering loved critters from other civilizations as a method of war
Real life example:
Buffalo Massacre
Post by: hermes on September 04, 2014, 01:59:51 pm
Post by: Dirst on September 05, 2014, 10:56:50 am
Quote
Wooden chests brought by elven traders are grown nowI bet the Elves felt really icky when they first realized what they had been carrying around with them.
Post by: Inarius on September 07, 2014, 04:46:57 am
Quote
Allowed recover wounded jobs to bring dwarves to hospital floor if no beds are available
Stopped recover wounded jobs from bringing dwarves to non-hospital beds
Made doctors remove dwarves from traction properly (checks weekly)
That's great news !
Post by: smjjames on September 07, 2014, 09:31:18 am
QuoteAllowed recover wounded jobs to bring dwarves to hospital floor if no beds are available
Stopped recover wounded jobs from bringing dwarves to non-hospital beds
Made doctors remove dwarves from traction properly (checks weekly)
That's great news !
I usually provide enough beds for the whole military.
He also fixed the rest+knockout bug which fixes most of the issues with dwarves not getting recovered. So, yeah, that's a sizeable chunk of the healthcare bugs fixed.
Post by: tyrannus007 on September 07, 2014, 01:43:34 pm
Quote
- Stopped civs from sending a squad when they failed to find thieves/snatchers to send
That must be why the kobolds have been sending so many ambushes lately.
Post by: reality.auditor on September 07, 2014, 04:53:15 pm
Quote
Good. Siege in first year is a little too hardcore even for DF. Good to know that was not intentional.
- Stopped civs from sending a squad when they failed to find thieves/snatchers to send
Post by: cephalo on September 09, 2014, 11:37:00 am
It seems to happen when I have too much hot weather on the map, but I'm not sure.
Post by: Putnam on September 09, 2014, 05:48:57 pm
Post by: lethosor on September 09, 2014, 06:11:42 pm
Are the dipscripts even doing much of anything right now?They're used to control diplomat meetings (the actual displayed text is located in data/dipscripts/text) - the wiki (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Dipscript) has more information. For example, elves_firstcontact displays different messages depending on the number of trees removed:
Code: [Select]
[INITIAL_LOAD]
[DIPSCRIPT:ELVES_FIRSTCONTACT]
[IF:GLOBAL:TREESREMOVED:>:GLOBAL:0]
[TEXTVIEWER:elves_firstcontact1]
[ELSE]
[TEXTVIEWER:elves_firstcontact2]
[ENDIF]
[HISTORY_DIPEV:FIRSTCONTACT]
Post by: smjjames on September 09, 2014, 11:00:20 pm
Civ Zone Kitchen 5959: Null Unit Assignment (Id 28978)
Civ Zone Captive Room 5960: Null Unit Assignment (Id 28978)
I believe they occured while I was raiding a dark pits in an attempt to do the 'cause trouble' quest/agreement. Which seems kind of broken because even though I raided the dark pits my captian mentioned and assassinated the goblin noble there (was actually going to try to question her or make a demand, but whoops, oh well), it's still not completed.
I did report it back at base though and while one of the militia commanders replied with 'it's for the best', my captian said 'it was inevitable' and then said 'Stozu Silverynightmares is dead. It is done.'. Those two statements are a bit contradictory in their tone or something, lol.
Post by: Chevaleresse on September 09, 2014, 11:15:01 pm
Post by: WillowLuman on September 10, 2014, 01:15:14 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on September 10, 2014, 01:34:25 pm
Were you planning on adding curious underground structures back into the game, or have they been replaced by vaults?
Might be obsolete by now, but:
Quote from: MaskedMiner/samanatoSpoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: cephalo on September 11, 2014, 07:07:17 am
Do worldgen population limits (MAX_POP_NUMBER, etc.) affect expansion post-worldgen, or can a civ theoretically expand to populate the entire world? If the hard cap is still in effect, what happens to player created units (starting 7 and adventurers) over the entity population cap?
This would be very easy to test with minimal effort. Set those numbers super high and see what happens.
Post by: Knight Otu on September 11, 2014, 11:03:57 am
Do worldgen population limits (MAX_POP_NUMBER, etc.) affect expansion post-worldgen, or can a civ theoretically expand to populate the entire world? If the hard cap is still in effect, what happens to player created units (starting 7 and adventurers) over the entity population cap?Back when Toady added births, he said that the world gen limits still apply to new births:
Quote
I suppose today is as good a day as any to add birth to the world. It schedules various conceptions throughout the world, and those add births to the schedule -- it still has to respect the same artificial population caps used in world generation to avoid overpopulation.If the player manages to overflow the limits, I would assume that this simply prevents new (off-site) births from being scheduled until such a time that the still-occurring deaths reduce the numbers below the limits.
Post by: Dirst on September 12, 2014, 09:36:52 am
Quote
- Stopped fort dwarves from throwing their clothes off into a pile during unretire after being visited by adventurer
- Stopped fort animals from getting clothing during unretire after being visited by adventurer
Is a visit from an adventurer so disruptive that it makes people strip off their clothes and throw them at animals?
What are you people doing in these forts? ???
Post by: MrWiggles on September 12, 2014, 09:39:47 am
Post by: Knight Otu on September 12, 2014, 05:03:38 pm
Post by: Toady One on September 12, 2014, 06:21:56 pm
Post by: Authority2 on September 13, 2014, 12:33:49 am
"Take everything you want, just don't kill us!"Quote
- Stopped fort dwarves from throwing their clothes off into a pile during unretire after being visited by adventurer
- Stopped fort animals from getting clothing during unretire after being visited by adventurer
Is a visit from an adventurer so disruptive that it makes people strip off their clothes and throw them at animals?
What are you people doing in these forts? ???
It's the living world; rumors of your randomly murderous ways can spread now.
Post by: Knight Otu on September 13, 2014, 10:02:10 am
Yeah, you can still set GRAZER, but there's a STANDARD_GRAZER now that doesn't have an argument, and I've replaced all of my own GRAZERs with it (so giant creatures work). It sets GRAZER to 20000*G*(max size)^(-3/4), where G defaults to 100 but can be set in d_init, and the whole thing is trapped between 150 and 3 million, I think, so grazers larger than rhinos/elephants end up needing the same amount of grass, for now anyway, and they should survive.Thanks! I'll have a look how this measures up with my mods' formula.
So... the new formula reaches its floor of 150 at about 300,000, it seems? That's rather early. A G of 500 moves the floor us to a body size of around 2,700,000, which is nearly rhino-size, and that G gives horses a grazer value of 532 (Vanilla 120, me 280, new at G100 150 (106 without the floor)). Have I missed something here?
Post by: xaritscin on September 13, 2014, 10:35:40 am
Post by: Knight Otu on September 13, 2014, 10:48:30 am
that means that Elephants and other large sized beast like it are actually viable (?)That's the idea, yes. As a matter of fact, if my above calculations are correct, every grazer that's a little larger than a donkey will eat the same amount of grass.
Edit - I think I caught my error. I remember reading that internally, body sizes are divided by 10. If Toady's formula is directly from the code, then it uses the adjusted body size. That means the formula does reach the 150 floor at about rhino-size, horses get a grazer value of 598, and if it weren't capped, elephants would still get a grazer value of 106 to my 72. It's pretty generous.
Post by: Toady One on September 13, 2014, 12:13:48 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on September 13, 2014, 03:03:29 pm
Post by: Urist_McDagger on September 14, 2014, 06:44:03 pm
Quote from: Toady OneQuote from: LemundeThere's been some discussion about studded weapons since the big update earlier this year. Specifically I'm wondering if, for example, a silver mace studded with lead would do more damage than a normal silver mace due to the added weight?
Improvements to items don't do anything weight/damage-wise yet, but we'd hope to have it matter at some point.
Oh, great. Didn't realise it had already been answered. Thanks.
Post by: Footkerchief on September 14, 2014, 08:13:21 pm
Will (Decorate item with X) and (Stud item with X) have any effect on the item apart from increasing it's value? I think studding a shield with steel spikes ought to improve shield bash and giving an iron hammer platinum studs should increase it's force on impact.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1719248#msg1719248
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: LemundeThere's been some discussion about studded weapons since the big update earlier this year. Specifically I'm wondering if, for example, a silver mace studded with lead would do more damage than a normal silver mace due to the added weight?
Improvements to items don't do anything weight/damage-wise yet, but we'd hope to have it matter at some point.
Post by: CaptainArchmage on September 15, 2014, 06:06:22 pm
Quote
Messed around with some of the lag culprits: stale activities, enemy detection, over-active food consumption logging, and so on. Doubled the speed of the test save, but it's hard to say how it'll transfer in general, though the fixed trouble spots would come up in every fort with lots of dwarves.
Alright, so FPS doubled on the broken save? Will any of the changes make an improvement on large map sizes, or is it just high-population forts for now?
Post by: King Mir on September 15, 2014, 10:17:18 pm
Today’s devlog:For now? high population forts are the bigger bug; they make old forts die fps death instead of a constant factor that can be mitigated by playing a smaller map.QuoteMessed around with some of the lag culprits: stale activities, enemy detection, over-active food consumption logging, and so on. Doubled the speed of the test save, but it's hard to say how it'll transfer in general, though the fixed trouble spots would come up in every fort with lots of dwarves.
Alright, so FPS doubled on the broken save? Will any of the changes make an improvement on large map sizes, or is it just high-population forts for now?
Post by: Authority2 on September 15, 2014, 10:27:06 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on September 16, 2014, 08:20:15 am
Post by: Aquathug on September 18, 2014, 11:10:56 am
Post by: BenLubar on September 18, 2014, 12:43:10 pm
Out of curiosity, what language is DF written in?
It's C++.
Post by: BenLubar on September 18, 2014, 12:45:08 pm
Ignore that - I seem to be remembering a bug that got fixed at some point.
Post by: Archereon on September 18, 2014, 12:58:50 pm
While I recall that roads aren't built and megabeast attacks don't occur after world-gen (outside of fortress mode) as well, that doesn't seem to destabilize things nearly as much as the goblin blitzkrieg. If it's not something that will happen for a long, long time (not until the next major version), is there any possibility that a sort of stopgag might be put in so that post-worldgen invasions can have diverse outcomes, even if it's just a population based dice roll?
Post by: Aquathug on September 18, 2014, 02:23:35 pm
Out of curiosity, what language is DF written in?
It's C++.
Cool. Thanks!
Post by: Putnam on September 18, 2014, 07:12:05 pm
Post by: Aquathug on September 18, 2014, 07:26:30 pm
The official word is "an unsanctioned mess of C and C++", IIRC. You can sorta see Toady's pre-DF coding style in Liberal Crime Squad, which was one very large C++ file with no classes.
Just browsed through the LCS source.
This is insane.
Post by: PigtailLlama on September 19, 2014, 12:34:15 pm
How will fruit and vegetable refinement be handled?
Will fruits and vegetables still bear a biscuits/stew/roast description when cooked, or will they be different and more plausible such as pie, jam or cobbler?
If fruits and vegetables are able to be pressed into drinkable juice, or millled into meal, powder or spice, can these juices and spices be used to make finer drinks?
Post by: Knight Otu on September 19, 2014, 12:49:31 pm
Latest news brings up three questions:All of those are pretty much Tavern "arc" questions. Tavern work is one of the leading candidates for the post-bugfix large release work, and would likely include recipes, improved meals and drinks, using spices, and the like. For the next release, yes, cooked fruits will still use the in-raw meal item types.
How will fruit and vegetable refinement be handled?
Will fruits and vegetables still bear a biscuits/stew/roast description when cooked, or will they be different and more plausible such as pie, jam or cobbler?
If fruits and vegetables are able to be pressed into drinkable juice, or millled into meal, powder or spice, can these juices and spices be used to make finer drinks?
Post by: KrEstoF on September 19, 2014, 12:51:33 pm
Do you think you could prioritize fixing the bug where pulped body parts still function? I think this is a terrible bug which ruins all forms of combat in the game.
Post by: lethosor on September 19, 2014, 02:11:38 pm
Post by: CaptainArchmage on September 20, 2014, 11:19:39 pm
Quote
so we'll see how fortress-wide meltdowns are affected
So we’re going to have more ways a 200 dwarf fort can end in mass rioting?
Post by: KrEstoF on September 21, 2014, 01:58:26 am
If you're talking about this report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6854), its status (our primary method of indicating priorities) is already "confirmed".
I don't know what "confirmed" is supposed to mean, aside from some admin reproduced the bug. What I'm asking is just that it actually gets fixed. There are other similar bug reports with the "new" status, and they deserve a higher priority than "minor", imo.
Post by: therahedwig on September 21, 2014, 04:42:52 am
The only bugs that do get priority are crashes.
To get back on topic, the current devlog sounds foreboding.
Post by: MrWiggles on September 21, 2014, 04:56:28 am
Why is your pet bug more important then someone elses pet bug? You don't think ToadyOne is aware there are bugs in the game?If you're talking about this report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6854), its status (our primary method of indicating priorities) is already "confirmed".
I don't know what "confirmed" is supposed to mean, aside from some admin reproduced the bug. What I'm asking is just that it actually gets fixed. There are other similar bug reports with the "new" status, and they deserve a higher priority than "minor", imo.
Post by: smjjames on September 21, 2014, 08:42:20 am
KreEstoF, what Lethosolor is trying to say is that is that the bugtracker doesn't do priorities(priorities you see on the bug tracker are always done by reporters). Toady just chooses at near-random.
The only bugs that do get priority are crashes.
To get back on topic, the current devlog sounds foreboding.
There's a couple of adventure mode crashes that I'd really like him to look at but he doesn't seem to have looked at.
Yeah the newest devlog sound foreboding in the sense of !!!FUN!!! and bugs.
Post by: Quietust on September 21, 2014, 02:18:08 pm
Why does Dwarf Fortress stop CMV recording once the file size exceeds 5 million bytes? Was there originally some reason behind that limitation? (the relevant code is in g_src/interface.cpp lines 1385-1391)
Post by: DG on September 21, 2014, 04:36:02 pm
Post by: KrEstoF on September 21, 2014, 05:20:23 pm
Gee, I dunno? Maybe because combat is an important part of the game, and practically all one does in adventure mode? You might as well face it, but it's what most awesome stories amount to. Maybe when your platoon of dwarves manage to pulp all of a dragon's limbs, but it still wipes out your fort because they're entirely functional, you will change your mind.Why is your pet bug more important then someone elses pet bug? You don't think ToadyOne is aware there are bugs in the game?If you're talking about this report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6854), its status (our primary method of indicating priorities) is already "confirmed".
I don't know what "confirmed" is supposed to mean, aside from some admin reproduced the bug. What I'm asking is just that it actually gets fixed. There are other similar bug reports with the "new" status, and they deserve a higher priority than "minor", imo.
Post by: smjjames on September 21, 2014, 07:41:24 pm
Gee, I dunno? Maybe because combat is an important part of the game, and practically all one does in adventure mode? You might as well face it, but it's what most awesome stories amount to. Maybe when your platoon of dwarves manage to pulp all of a dragon's limbs, but it still wipes out your fort because they're entirely functional, you will change your mind.Why is your pet bug more important then someone elses pet bug? You don't think ToadyOne is aware there are bugs in the game?If you're talking about this report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6854), its status (our primary method of indicating priorities) is already "confirmed".
I don't know what "confirmed" is supposed to mean, aside from some admin reproduced the bug. What I'm asking is just that it actually gets fixed. There are other similar bug reports with the "new" status, and they deserve a higher priority than "minor", imo.
You should be using swords or axes or spears against a dragon anyway, not warhammers and maces.
I thought he had done the dwarf thought rewrite already, well, I knew he was doing a dorf brain rewrite, but didn't know he was holding off on the main part of it until after the release.
Post by: monk12 on September 21, 2014, 07:50:56 pm
Post by: Shashu on September 21, 2014, 07:54:10 pm
Post by: King Mir on September 21, 2014, 08:23:45 pm
Can someone summarize what the thought rewrite entails? It sounds exciting.All I know is it's needed for job priorities.
I assume it's about making all the new personality traits have an effect on behavior in dwarf mode, instead of being descriptions only.
Post by: reality.auditor on September 23, 2014, 06:50:46 am
I assume it's about making all the new personality traits have an effect on behavior in dwarf mode, instead of being descriptions only.Sooo... now (or at least in 0.34) pretty much only jobs affected by personality was broker/manager (you WILL know when you get dwarf prone to procrastination) and hospital care (taking aside supposedly fixed healthcare bugs, you HAVE to have someone that enjoy helping others).
If you are right, in future every job will be like this...? Dear Armok.
This will be un-fun (as in forced micromanagement hell).
I hope game will have some way to indicate that certain dwarves are unsuited to given job. And immigrants will be generated with professions and skills with at least some skew in direction of their personality (to today I remember philosophers with "intelectual discourse = waste of time" character trait, clearly showing profession and skill generation is/was totally random and indepedent from personality).
Post by: DeKaFu on September 23, 2014, 08:44:01 am
So basically, ripping out the happy/sad thought system and putting it back in a form that uses and complements the various other newly-added dwarf brain changes already in place, instead of just being an arbitrary happiness sliding scale on the side that's not affected by anything else.
Can't remember where I read that though, so I might be wrong.
Fakedit: Found it.
Quote from: Devlog
The mind has been rewritten quite a bit -- people now experience emotions according to different circumstances (lots of awkward monologues there), and they consider actions differently. The main outstanding issue is that I didn't get around to converting existing dwarf mode thoughts, so they sort of exist concurrently with the new emotions and that needs to be changed.
Post by: smjjames on September 23, 2014, 09:14:59 am
I assume it's about making all the new personality traits have an effect on behavior in dwarf mode, instead of being descriptions only.Sooo... now (or at least in 0.34) pretty much only jobs affected by personality was broker/manager (you WILL know when you get dwarf prone to procrastination) and hospital care (taking aside supposedly fixed healthcare bugs, you HAVE to have someone that enjoy helping others).
If you are right, in future every job will be like this...? Dear Armok.
This will be un-fun (as in forced micromanagement hell).
I hope game will have some way to indicate that certain dwarves are unsuited to given job. And immigrants will be generated with professions and skills with at least some skew in direction of their personality (to today I remember philosophers with "intelectual discourse = waste of time" character trait, clearly showing profession and skill generation is/was totally random and indepedent from personality).
It's only micromanagement hell if you let it, also, DT will be of major help because you can sort by how suited what dwarves are to what jobs.
Post by: Scoops Novel on September 23, 2014, 01:44:40 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on September 23, 2014, 07:06:10 pm
Will you go on a pub crawl to research the tavern arc? How do you generally research, come to that?
This movie probably counts as source material:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
PowerGoal48, ROAD HOUSE, (Future): Onlookers led by you stop a fight, and somebody demands to see the manager. The manager appoints you official bar bouncer.
Post by: smjjames on September 23, 2014, 07:16:03 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on September 23, 2014, 07:42:57 pm
Post by: smjjames on September 23, 2014, 07:49:54 pm
Post by: LeeDub on September 24, 2014, 12:56:38 am
Post by: Greiger on September 24, 2014, 03:48:37 am
...
Does anyone know how to email a snorkel?
Post by: TsiOriol on September 24, 2014, 11:44:55 am
We love you Toady! Don't give up! Make sure to reemerge to breathe every so often! Here I'll help.
...
Does anyone know how to email a snorkel?
We may need to dwarf up a reverse 3-d printer.
Post by: Uronym on September 24, 2014, 12:50:31 pm
We love you Toady! Don't give up! Make sure to reemerge to breathe every so often! Here I'll help.
...
Does anyone know how to email a snorkel?
We may need to dwarf up a reverse 3-d printer.
You're both being ridiculous. Toady is amphibious, he doesn't need to come up for air!
Post by: Lielac on September 24, 2014, 01:34:00 pm
We love you Toady! Don't give up! Make sure to reemerge to breathe every so often! Here I'll help.
...
Does anyone know how to email a snorkel?
We may need to dwarf up a reverse 3-d printer.
You're both being ridiculous. Toady is amphibious, he doesn't need to come up for air!
Nope, adult toads don't have gills, only tadpoles; once the tadpole matures into a toad, it loses the ability to breathe water in exchange for breathing air.
Post by: Bralbaard on September 24, 2014, 02:31:17 pm
We love you Toady! Don't give up! Make sure to reemerge to breathe every so often! Here I'll help.
...
Does anyone know how to email a snorkel?
We may need to dwarf up a reverse 3-d printer.
You're both being ridiculous. Toady is amphibious, he doesn't need to come up for air!
Nope, adult toads don't have gills, only tadpoles; once the tadpole matures into a toad, it loses the ability to breathe water in exchange for breathing air.
Some adult toads and frogs hibernate underwater, slowing their metabolism, and breathing through their skin.
Toady will be ok for the next few months.
Post by: Lielac on September 24, 2014, 03:35:47 pm
We love you Toady! Don't give up! Make sure to reemerge to breathe every so often! Here I'll help.
...
Does anyone know how to email a snorkel?
We may need to dwarf up a reverse 3-d printer.
You're both being ridiculous. Toady is amphibious, he doesn't need to come up for air!
Nope, adult toads don't have gills, only tadpoles; once the tadpole matures into a toad, it loses the ability to breathe water in exchange for breathing air.
Some adult toads and frogs hibernate underwater, slowing their metabolism, and breathing through their skin.
Toady will be ok for the next few months.
But hibernation means they're barely doing anything. A coding spree hopefully means the opposite.
(Don't forget to take breaks, Toady!)
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on September 24, 2014, 07:53:57 pm
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/#2014-09-23
(emerging for update) still working on it... lots of lists... things to type... (submerging)
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/4/13/1302727835559/Toad-007.jpg)
Post by: FoiledFencer on September 25, 2014, 06:44:53 am
Hey toady, not to nag but:
Do you think you could prioritize fixing the bug where pulped body parts still function? I think this is a terrible bug which ruins all forms of combat in the game.
Piggybacking on this question:
With pulping, it seems like there are lots of injuries that are not easily sorted with a splint and some stitches - are there any plans to incorporate amputation of mangled limbs? Thanks for the great work!
Post by: Scoops Novel on September 26, 2014, 12:43:38 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on September 26, 2014, 01:34:29 pm
How do you envision conversation?
Do you mean dwarves having conversations in Fortress Mode?
Post by: Scoops Novel on September 26, 2014, 01:49:02 pm
How do you envision conversation?
Do you mean dwarves having conversations in Fortress Mode?
and adventure. I'm wondering if it's going to be a thorough, heavily moddable system tied up with the thought rewrite, written more or less in character, or it's going to be abstract (The vampire makes a jokes referencing events 300 years ago. It is scintillating) like books. Or even if he'll use a chatbot. (Please use a chatbot)
Post by: reality.auditor on September 26, 2014, 05:12:53 pm
and adventure. I'm wondering if it's going to be a thorough, heavily moddable system tied up with the thought rewrite, written more or less in character, or it's going to be abstract (The vampire makes a jokes referencing events 300 years ago. It is scintillating) like books. Or even if he'll use a chatbot.I bet on prewritten sentences indicating emotions, like now in adventure mode (and rarely combat reports in fort mode). But I would be fine with abstract.
Post by: Kishmond on September 26, 2014, 05:23:35 pm
It's like one of those Minecraft taglines.
Post by: Lielac on September 26, 2014, 05:36:10 pm
and oh my god 119 eleme-- er, emotions. Emotion elements. The periodic table of dwarfy emotions! With "types"... yes, I can see a periodic table of the elements equivalent here.
...
is this going to blow up into another session of feature creep though
and what's the version number gonna be like, I wonder
Post by: Zarathustra30 on September 26, 2014, 08:16:14 pm
The 6 emotions present in dwarf mode were horror, terror, fear, shock, grief, and rage. What were the remaining 10?
Post by: smjjames on September 26, 2014, 09:20:28 pm
What are the 119 emotions?
The 6 emotions present in dwarf mode were horror, terror, fear, shock, grief, and rage. What were the remaining 10?
love, melancholy/depressed, beserk rage, those emotions that nobles get when demands aren't met..... I'm also curious as to what the 16 are.
Still, 119 emotions or emotes, wow, that goes from like I dunno, a dull novel to a shakesperian play, it's a huge amount of new interactions. Or maybe a simple melody to a complex symphony or opera would be a better example.
It'll no longer be the rather simple, now it'll be a complex interaction.
Now that things are livelier and with the conversations, Will we get to peek in on the conversations of our dwarves in fort mode? You know, see Urist McFuturedad on his pregnant wife and future child, see the soldiers comment on the slaying of the FB or be concerned about injured comrades, see our dwarves pay thier respects to the dead, grumble about the shortage of copper, etc.
Edit: Oh, will the 119 emotions also be applied to the other races and be visible in adventure mode?
Post by: Fieari on September 26, 2014, 11:41:03 pm
Will grief mean more than appreciation of art now?
Will dwarves become acclimated to splendor, and no longer be brought to tears in awe at their masterwork dining room after eating there all their lives? On the flip side, if they lose said legendary diningroom and then have to deal with lesser quality, will they see it as a major loss, or still as an "okay" diningroom?
Post by: Urist McDepravity on September 27, 2014, 01:01:30 am
Quote
usually through the stress/stability measurements which replace the "happiness" meterDoes this mean there's no "positive excitement" (like joy of giving birth, which should be neither "stable" nor "stressed") status anymore?
Post by: WordsandChaos on September 27, 2014, 02:22:53 am
This wheel, for instance, is probably some indication on the kind of thing we might expect:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
No idea on the practical effects. It'll certainly be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm impressed.
So dread is not quite the same as fear, nor terror.
Fear is the base emotion - covers everything, more of less.
Terror is the immediate reaction to an immediate and terrible threat, eg: Urist Mc Butcher charging at you with a meat cleaver.
Dread is the long-term anticipatory emotional state arising only in situational context, eg: from the potential for Urist McButcher to come charging at you with a meat cleaver because he's found out you've been schtupping his wife.
Post by: Robsoie on September 27, 2014, 03:21:39 am
Post by: Mopsy on September 27, 2014, 06:49:02 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on September 27, 2014, 07:18:11 am
Post by: PigtailLlama on September 27, 2014, 08:46:51 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on September 27, 2014, 10:10:43 am
I guess you could say that this update was... very emotional. 8)
:'(
Post by: tyrannus007 on September 27, 2014, 06:18:57 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on September 28, 2014, 02:26:17 pm
The 6 emotions present in dwarf mode were horror, terror, fear, shock, grief, and rage. What were the remaining 10?
Judging by the string dump, they were:
suspicion, alarm, shock, horror, grief, triumph, rage, grim satisfaction, satisfaction, fear, sadness, love, bliss, vengefulness, terror
Edit - and joy. Then it's the full 16.
Post by: Putnam on September 28, 2014, 03:45:18 pm
Post by: Sizik on September 28, 2014, 05:35:24 pm
Post by: Valtam on September 28, 2014, 11:26:26 pm
How many of the emotions are ones that have long German names that have no equivalent in English?
Everything is schadenfreude for us, as soon as we start talking about the demise of everyone else's fortresses.
In a more serious note, which ones are you talking about, specifically?
Post by: smjjames on September 29, 2014, 09:19:39 am
How many of the emotions are ones that have long German names that have no equivalent in English?
Everything is schadenfreude for us, as soon as we start talking about the demise of everyone else's fortresses.
In a more serious note, which ones are you talking about, specifically?
The only one I know of is schadenfreude.
Just wondering here, when will the bug where attacking armies in post worldgen are always successful, leading to Mongol Horde style waves of mass conquerings, be fixed? It creates a real problem for longer term gameplay for any single world. This bug is mainly notable in fort mode, but it seems to happen in adventure mode as well.
This bug I think: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8202
Post by: Knight Otu on September 29, 2014, 10:10:13 am
Just wondering here, when will the bug where attacking armies in post worldgen are always successful, leading to Mongol Horde style waves of mass conquerings, be fixed? It creates a real problem for longer term gameplay for any single world. This bug is mainly notable in fort mode, but it seems to happen in adventure mode as well.It's a deliberate placeholder for now, and not a bug as such, and timeline questions rarely have good answers. Also see this Twitter exchange (https://twitter.com/Bay12Games/status/504069257546592256):
This bug I think: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8202
Quote from: Bay12Games
Quote from: TinyPirate@Bay12Games any word when civilizations won't lose any time they are attacked? #dwarffortress@TinyPirate Army fights are a large issue, and there are obstacles to even just making it a coin flip, so no short term plans.
Post by: CLA on September 29, 2014, 04:19:36 pm
I assume they got scrapped because it would have been too much work to research and integrate footprints for every creature, but is that still planned to be added in the far future?
I'd say that's great opportunity for the community to collect some data and transform it in a meaningful format.
Post by: Valtam on September 29, 2014, 07:58:51 pm
Reading about them I noticed something else I was going to ask anyway, and it is, how are living encampments and search posses going to be implemented in the current frame? Right now tents are just fancy backdrops for either unjustified murder or meaningless, one-sided interactions, what with their occupants being always asleep.
Haven't commited enough crimes in a single savefile to provoke manhunts against me, but I think they're non-existant by now. I might be wrong.
Post by: smjjames on September 29, 2014, 09:49:39 pm
Thanks for bringing the footprints, CLA. I was pretty sure I saw them somewhere through the development cycle, also a bit sad to realize they didn't make the cut.
Reading about them I noticed something else I was going to ask anyway, and it is, how are living encampments and search posses going to be implemented in the current frame? Right now tents are just fancy backdrops for either unjustified murder or meaningless, one-sided interactions, what with their occupants being always asleep.
Haven't commited enough crimes in a single savefile to provoke manhunts against me, but I think they're non-existant by now. I might be wrong.
FIFY also bug report link http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6798
Whatever is going on with the camps, even animals are affected. I posted up two odd ones (the second one is even stranger than the first, which looked like some sort of horse thief situation (or llama thief, as it were), or something) which have animals included. Also, the first odd save, which I had met earlier in a hillock, didn't seem to have any real reason to be hostile to me when they woke up. Though understandably, you'd be spooked to suddenly find a stranger in your tent when you wake up.
Post by: CLA on September 30, 2014, 03:58:11 am
Thanks for bringing the footprints, CLA. I was pretty sure I saw them somewhere through the development cycle, also a bit sad to realize they didn't make the cut.Yeah, I even added the tiles that would have been used to the tileset page on the wiki before realizing that they weren't in the game. I guess it's one of those things where DF has to know what it wants. "you see the footprint of a racoon", or displaying an image of a racoon footprint? The former has the obvious advantage that you - as player - don't need to know what a racoon footprint looks like (still have to know what a racoon is though). Whereas I think an image of a footprint would be more fun to play, as the game relies more on your own knowledge; I like that in games. You wouldn't even have to know what animal it is, just using your common sense (it's a big creature. it's a small creature. it has claws, it doesn't) should get you reasonably far. Although I think providing a scale of reference would be nice.
Of course ideally, you could do both, image and text. With text getting more concrete and informative as your character's skill increases. At worst, you see the image of a footprint with text "about as big as your hand, they point north", while a legendary tracker might give you "young brown bear, running north; about a day old"
In either case, images aren't really necessary and just cosmetic/flavor. Not to mention you'd have to do them for every creature you add. I think it could work with procedurally generated creatures, though.
Post by: Knight Otu on September 30, 2014, 10:24:07 am
Post by: nomoetoe on September 30, 2014, 11:57:38 am
What amused me is that the one who was appointed as queen dreamed of ruling the world. she kind of gets her wish. c:
Post by: Toady One on September 30, 2014, 09:37:49 pm
Quote
Quote from: Urist McVoyagerI was under the impression that we'd be able to interact with Hill Dwarves to some degree in Fortress mode in this release, but I haven't seen anything about it. What needs to be done before that comes available? I'm just talking about little things like being able to send people out to help them, nothing major like sending out campaign forces en-mass to attack others.Quote from: AreyarDo you have a formed idea how hill dwarf<>Fortress trade/transport will be formulated for the player-fort?
We're pretty much ready for hill dwarves, if I remember. We'd just need to get into some starting scenarios that involve them, and hill dwarf mechanics would be added one by one.
Aside from the timing/sync issues we've been over, there are some issues with equipment in general that are more or less related to your dwarves only needing to eat a few meals a year. If your fortress gets to a sort of county/duchy/kingdom level, it won't be possible to manage all of the equipment using fortress production. We also can't have more than a few hundred dwarves at the fort at a time. So your relationship with off-map dwarves will probably start reasonably intimate and then drop off to a more representative/liaison level with some incidental interactions. I'm not sure precisely how it'll all work though. It seems like the sort of thing that'll work itself out once we establish the market/fair setup for your depot and allow you to send out dwarves and have dwarves brought in.
Quote from: Dirst
the current tantrum and insanity systems are "placeholders" but do you have a broad-strokes idea of what needs to be done before this part of the AI (artificial insanity) engine is fleshed out? I would love to see someone actually appoint a yak to a noble position and mean it! This would be a legitimate loyalty cascade between loyalty to the noble and loyalty to the country.
I'm not really sure how it should work at this point. Once we get the new stress/stability system in, it'd probably just be the sort of thing that can be addressed directly. The easiest way would probably be to assign specific issues to people that have been having trouble for a while, but I have no idea if that's something that should happen.
Quote from: cephalo
I have been messing around with the new options for temperature map settings, and I'm getting a common map rejection called "Placed farming entity without orchard crops". What might have caused that to happen and why is it something that a map should not have?
As far as I can tell, it means it couldn't find local trees with edible growths for them to grow in their orchards, for civs with OUTDOOR_ORCHARDS/INDOOR_ORCHARDS. As with all the other mechanics, it could have unintended issues. So if there are edible growth-bearing trees in some forest that would normally get elves (or whatever elf-like race), then something didn't work out. There's also the larger issue of giving them some kind of "common_domestic" tree to compensate or something.
Quote from: smjjames
What are these two errors? Never seen these before.
Civ Zone Kitchen 5959: Null Unit Assignment (Id 28978)
Civ Zone Captive Room 5960: Null Unit Assignment (Id 28978)
Looks like a night troll lair where it couldn't load a prisoner or one of the trolls. Could have a variety of causes, but I'm not aware of a specific known culprit at this point.
Quote from: HugoLuman
Do worldgen population limits (MAX_POP_NUMBER, etc.) affect expansion post-worldgen, or can a civ theoretically expand to populate the entire world? If the hard cap is still in effect, what happens to player created units (starting 7 and adventurers) over the entity population cap?
It uses the TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION number to prevent births, across civs, but it doesn't look like it uses MAX_POP_NUMBER to control individual civs. The global cap is only used for births set up away from the fort, and doesn't affect the starting units.
Quote from: Archereon
While I recall that roads aren't built and megabeast attacks don't occur after world-gen (outside of fortress mode) as well, that doesn't seem to destabilize things nearly as much as the goblin blitzkrieg. If it's not something that will happen for a long, long time (not until the next major version), is there any possibility that a sort of stopgag might be put in so that post-worldgen invasions can have diverse outcomes, even if it's just a population based dice roll?
Knight Otu answered another question about this with a twitter quote where I said even coin flips would be difficult, and it is tricky to do -- the armies already break up into little squads and go to different parts of town and all that when you are in the mid-level zoom, and that sort of thing leads to a variety of hassles with determining the outcome. I'm not sure what the progression is going to be, but it won't be a quick fix situation.
Quote from: Quietust
Why does Dwarf Fortress stop CMV recording once the file size exceeds 5 million bytes? Was there originally some reason behind that limitation?
It would be a strong statement to say there was a reason for it, even if I could remember it now. I'm assuming the original ~2005 implemention was just in single buffer that got dumped after the movie was fully recorded, and I set aside 5 million bytes for it. I have no idea what twisted logic informed the retention of the limit, or if I just didn't think about it. As for now, I can't think of a reason to keep it. I'm not sure if the movie upload site is still in use or if it has a movie size limit of its own.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
Will you go on a pub crawl to research the tavern arc? How do you generally research, come to that?
It depends on the subject. I have lots of books, and there's also the internet. I don't have a specific process. For taverns, I have a modest amount of personal experience, and there's lots of other stuff out there online and in a few books I have laying around to round it out.
Quote from: FoiledFencer
With pulping, it seems like there are lots of injuries that are not easily sorted with a splint and some stitches - are there any plans to incorporate amputation of mangled limbs? Thanks for the great work!
I don't have a specific plan, but lots of amputations were bound to happen something or another.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
How do you envision conversation?
There are lots of things to improve about the current system, but now that it has been pulled out of its own mode and put in with the rest of the actions it seems a little more like we want it to be. Lots of challenges -- managing the text of lots of people talking at once, giving people distinct "voices" based on culture/personality/mannerisms/etc., having your own voice/tone/registers/etc., managing more and more possible questions you'd want to ask without it being impossible to find the options, etc. I don't have clear solutions to all of those problems, just thoughts and ideas and so on.
Quote from: Zarathustra30
What are the 119 emotions?
People have a guessing thread now, so we'll have to wait!
Quote from: smjjames
Will we get to peek in on the conversations of our dwarves in fort mode? You know, see Urist McFuturedad on his pregnant wife and future child, see the soldiers comment on the slaying of the FB or be concerned about injured comrades, see our dwarves pay thier respects to the dead, grumble about the shortage of copper, etc.
Edit: Oh, will the 119 emotions also be applied to the other races and be visible in adventure mode?
There's an issue with having many conversations at once and keeping FPS up (since it has to search the world and other such things when they discuss rumors and so on). So it'd have to generate them when you look at them, and that'd probably cause some temporal problems. They do have those emotional outbursts, since those aren't FPS heavy, and most other things can probably be brought over. We were toying around with the idea of having the new "thought paragraph" be a series of utterances, but we ended up going with a more standard format, at least for the time being.
The emotion system actually started in adventure mode and applies to everybody -- a lot of the new circumstances are restricted to dwarf mode for the time being though, just because more is going on there and the thoughts I converted were originally set up with dwarf mode in mind.
Quote
Quote from: FieariDo each of the emotions have a distinct in game effect, aside from just a note on the dwarf information screen?
Will grief mean more than appreciation of art now?
Will dwarves become acclimated to splendor, and no longer be brought to tears in awe at their masterwork dining room after eating there all their lives? On the flip side, if they lose said legendary diningroom and then have to deal with lesser quality, will they see it as a major loss, or still as an "okay" diningroom?Quote from: Urist McDepravityDoes this mean there's no "positive excitement" (like joy of giving birth, which should be neither "stable" nor "stressed") status anymore?
Distinct is certainly a strong word at this early juncture, and there are a few that currently mark a passing up of a potential flip-out that probably shouldn't have a noticeable effect by design (other than something extreme not happening). There aren't really secondary effects either -- having grouch-prone people causing irritation in irritable people when they talk to them, but only while actually grouchy, would be the sort of thing that's now in reach. I'd expect these first-pass emotions to be a touch more interesting than the up/down of previous thoughts, meaning that there'll be some new quirks and melt-downs and a great deal more variety in who is experiencing general stress trouble and how much. They don't perform whole new interesting behaviors for each emotion or anything like that, and aside from the time it takes to add, that sort of thing is tricky since we want dwarves to simply labor a lot of the time. There's a lot to do just with the secondary dwarf-to-dwarf interactions though and other smaller changes that should be pretty interesting.
The personality change/shifting standards/acclimation question has been sitting on the table for a long while, but I haven't much with it yet -- we did do that thing with dwarves getting tired of specific food/drink types, and a few other individual counters, though having dwarves get tired of craftsdwarfship would be a sad, angsty thing. General changes in personality have to be approached more carefully, and I'm not sure when we'll try to actually shift a facet. It happens a lot in real life (just growing up mostly, though kids should start with way more out of whack facets), but facet changes need to occur through a clear process so it isn't mushy and confusing and character-killing, especially since we are using the emotions in part to more clearly establish the dwarves as distinct characters.
The old positive happiness status was just a sum of thought +/- values added to owned possessions, and it didn't do anything aside from indicating that your dwarf wasn't in danger of throwing a tantrum or worse. In that way, all of the new positive emotions indicate this sort of "positive state" with more clarity and with some diversity respecting the dwarf, and as secondary effects are added, it'll fully justify the change.
Quote from: Robsoie
Is this going to work in Adventure mode too so we can finally get something else than "it was inevitable" in answer to incredible adventure feats ?
What I'm doing is only marginally related to that -- "it was inevitable" doesn't come from the emotion system, but rather a "rational" response to information/opinion/rumor you are passing along that they don't have a reply for. Some of the converted thoughts will probably show up in adventure mode (I'm not sure which ones), but I haven't yet broadened my scope beyond the dwarf thought update I've been doing.
Quote from: Sizik
How many of the emotions are ones that have long German names that have no equivalent in English?
He he he, I think they are all more or less regular English words. I was considering how I might handle that language/culture specific situation back when I was thinking about how language generation might work... it would be cool to have some kind of procedural emotion word creator when we get to languages, say. Then certain circumstances could make certain civ creatures feel something others wouldn't be able to conceptualize, or something. The "many words for snow" situation is related as well, and a sort of cliche that should be fully explored for our tacky fantasy generator. But that's all backburner speculation.
Quote from: CLA
Whatever happened to these (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2012.html#2012-07-30) composite footprint images?
I assume they got scrapped because it would have been too much work to research and integrate footprints for every creature, but is that still planned to be added in the far future?
I'd say that's great opportunity for the community to collect some data and transform it in a meaningful format.
Yeah, it was partially the time, and partially that we weren't sure about them overall... for graphics, it's the sort of thing we'd like, since they are fun and educational and stuff, but it makes the bar for modding in creatures higher in a new and different way. I still have the little program that changes images into ASCII footprint thingies, but I'm not sure I'll be starting up on that any time soon.
Quote from: Valtam
how are living encampments and search posses going to be implemented in the current frame? Right now tents are just fancy backdrops for either unjustified murder or meaningless, one-sided interactions, what with their occupants being always asleep.
Haven't commited enough crimes in a single savefile to provoke manhunts against me, but I think they're non-existant by now. I might be wrong.
Yeah, it ended up poorly -- tents became trouble during development, and I'm still not sure how to have them packed up and so on while armies don't even have equipment. Many armies just don't stop and hang out during the day -- they only stop and instantly sleep, so it is a weird setup. There are guards in the camp that wander around at night, so it shouldn't be utterly one-sided. I'm not sure what's going to happen, but a lot more work needs to be done with army movements and intent and supplies and messengers and all that.
The search posses themselves would be easier to fix. I've seen posses in towns during testing, but I don't think the camps can do them despite what I had hoped for. And they are just an army on the map, so it'd be good luck to even notice that a town was hunting you.
Post by: Untelligent on October 01, 2014, 12:01:08 am
Post by: Button on October 01, 2014, 12:09:02 am
Quote from: Zarathustra30What are the 119 emotions?
People have a guessing thread now, so we'll have to wait!
Please don't keep silent on the guessing thread's account. I'd rather not bear the forum's wrath for delaying the news.
Post by: Putnam on October 01, 2014, 12:35:30 am
Post by: Uronym on October 01, 2014, 06:13:40 am
Quote from: SizikHow many of the emotions are ones that have long German names that have no equivalent in English?
He he he, I think they are all more or less regular English words. I was considering how I might handle that language/culture specific situation back when I was thinking about how language generation might work... it would be cool to have some kind of procedural emotion word creator when we get to languages, say. Then certain circumstances could make certain civ creatures feel something others wouldn't be able to conceptualize, or something. The "many words for snow" situation is related as well, and a sort of cliche that should be fully explored for our tacky fantasy generator. But that's all backburner speculation.
Only Germans experience schadenfreude, zeitgeist or zugzwang! They also have 11 words for philosopher and 8 for psychologist! (someone who knows German back me up please)
Post by: LordBaal on October 01, 2014, 07:23:28 am
Post by: Knight Otu on October 01, 2014, 09:05:27 am
Only Germans experience schadenfreude, zeitgeist or zugzwang! They also have 11 words for philosopher and 8 for psychologist! (someone who knows German back me up please)Philosoph, Denker, Dummquatscher, Dummschwätzer... nope, can't get to 11, and I cheated. :P
Post by: Showbiz on October 01, 2014, 09:25:48 am
Only Germans experience schadenfreude, zeitgeist or zugzwang! They also have 11 words for philosopher and 8 for psychologist! (someone who knows German back me up please)Hm, I speak (swiss-)german fluently, but I have just one Word for Philosopher and a few more for Psychogolist, all rather colloquial, though.
Post by: cybergon on October 01, 2014, 09:51:27 am
Post by: Dirst on October 01, 2014, 09:54:50 am
That means it's actually closer than I thought. Once Dwarves get mounts, we'll have citizens tilting as windmills in no time!Quote from: Dirstthe current tantrum and insanity systems are "placeholders" but do you have a broad-strokes idea of what needs to be done before this part of the AI (artificial insanity) engine is fleshed out? I would love to see someone actually appoint a yak to a noble position and mean it! This would be a legitimate loyalty cascade between loyalty to the noble and loyalty to the country.
I'm not really sure how it should work at this point. Once we get the new stress/stability system in, it'd probably just be the sort of thing that can be addressed directly. The easiest way would probably be to assign specific issues to people that have been having trouble for a while, but I have no idea if that's something that should happen.
The personality change/shifting standards/acclimation question has been sitting on the table for a long while, but I haven't much with it yet -- we did do that thing with dwarves getting tired of specific food/drink types, and a few other individual counters, though having dwarves get tired of craftsdwarfship would be a sad, angsty thing. General changes in personality have to be approached more carefully, and I'm not sure when we'll try to actually shift a facet. It happens a lot in real life (just growing up mostly, though kids should start with way more out of whack facets), but facet changes need to occur through a clear process so it isn't mushy and confusing and character-killing, especially since we are using the emotions in part to more clearly establish the dwarves as distinct characters.I can see a Dwarf getting tired of performing the same exact job over and over and over again like smelting copper (absent a preference for copper) but I imagine getting tired of crafting would require some very outlier values for a Dwarf. By the way, she's in my current fort.
As for growing up emotionally, do you envision this being part of the caste-like life stages currently planned? Or are you more interested in researching how people really mature? One result I found fascinating is that teens understand risks just fine but that they vastly over-estimate the benefits from risky behaviors.
Post by: smjjames on October 01, 2014, 10:20:12 am
Quote from: Zarathustra30What are the 119 emotions?
People have a guessing thread now, so we'll have to wait!
Aw, oh well, we can wait a little, guessing is fun anyway. :D
Quote from: Valtamhow are living encampments and search posses going to be implemented in the current frame? Right now tents are just fancy backdrops for either unjustified murder or meaningless, one-sided interactions, what with their occupants being always asleep.
Haven't commited enough crimes in a single savefile to provoke manhunts against me, but I think they're non-existant by now. I might be wrong.
Yeah, it ended up poorly -- tents became trouble during development, and I'm still not sure how to have them packed up and so on while armies don't even have equipment. Many armies just don't stop and hang out during the day -- they only stop and instantly sleep, so it is a weird setup. There are guards in the camp that wander around at night, so it shouldn't be utterly one-sided. I'm not sure what's going to happen, but a lot more work needs to be done with army movements and intent and supplies and messengers and all that.
The search posses themselves would be easier to fix. I've seen posses in towns during testing, but I don't think the camps can do them despite what I had hoped for. And they are just an army on the map, so it'd be good luck to even notice that a town was hunting you.
Can't you at least try to do something about the sleeping forever part (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6798)? Valtams point is that they contribute nothing to the whole adventure mode experience if they sleep forever.
Also, what's up with those two armies that I found that had animals in them? The first one (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9820) I interpreted as a horse theif type situation, but I have no logical explaination for the second one (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9825), which includes the animal recruit thing (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6708)
As for the posses, I think I actually had a few of those while I was killing off an isolated dwarven civ since a hillock (and possibly a fortress) actually sent a few soldiers to try and kill me. Wasn't sure if they were bandits since they sort of acted like bandits, but then I decided that they were posses.
In a more recent adventure save, I killed an ambush which was hostile to me near a town and then when I approached the hamlet, a new one ran out (also hostile), which I killed. Then when I went into the hamlet, the first person I talked to called me a murderer (I'd never been to that town before). Not sure if that was because I killed the second group that went after me or some other reason, but I decided that I just wasn't welcome there and went elsewhere.
Post by: Dirst on October 01, 2014, 10:28:42 am
In a more recent adventure save, I killed an ambush which was hostile to me near a town and then when I approached the hamlet, a new one ran out (also hostile), which I killed. Then when I went into the hamlet, the first person I talked to called me a murderer (I'd never been to that town before). Not sure if that was because I killed the second group that went after me or some other reason, but I decided that I just wasn't welcome there and went elsewhere.You probably had one of the posse members' eyelashes on your sleeve or something, and the citizen recognized that corpse immediately :)
Post by: smjjames on October 01, 2014, 10:37:28 am
In a more recent adventure save, I killed an ambush which was hostile to me near a town and then when I approached the hamlet, a new one ran out (also hostile), which I killed. Then when I went into the hamlet, the first person I talked to called me a murderer (I'd never been to that town before). Not sure if that was because I killed the second group that went after me or some other reason, but I decided that I just wasn't welcome there and went elsewhere.You probably had one of the posse members' eyelashes on your sleeve or something, and the citizen recognized that corpse immediately :)
There was some blood on my weapons, not sure if that counts too. Either way, I got the feeling that I just wasn't welcome there.
Post by: Footkerchief on October 01, 2014, 11:38:48 am
Can't you at least try to do something about the sleeping forever part? Valtams point is that they contribute nothing to the whole adventure mode experience if they sleep forever.
Also, what's up with those two armies that I found that had animals in them? The first one I interpreted as a horse theif type situation, but I have no logical explaination for the second one, which includes the animal recruit thing
I keep trying to click these words but nothing happens?
Post by: Mel_Vixen on October 01, 2014, 01:32:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I wonder though too what the 120 states of mind will be.
Post by: smjjames on October 01, 2014, 01:53:54 pm
Can't you at least try to do something about the sleeping forever part? Valtams point is that they contribute nothing to the whole adventure mode experience if they sleep forever.
Also, what's up with those two armies that I found that had animals in them? The first one I interpreted as a horse theif type situation, but I have no logical explaination for the second one, which includes the animal recruit thing
I keep trying to click these words but nothing happens?
Are you trying to hint 'link the bug report'?
Also, fixed with links that shall activate at your click.
Post by: Mr S on October 01, 2014, 03:23:43 pm
Post by: Cobbler89 on October 01, 2014, 05:41:01 pm
You've struck embedded links. Praise the data miners!Sigged.
Post by: Footkerchief on October 01, 2014, 05:59:55 pm
Are you trying to hint 'link the bug report'?
Also, fixed with links that shall activate at your click.
Yes, and thanks!
Post by: smjjames on October 01, 2014, 07:27:34 pm
Post by: thvaz on October 02, 2014, 01:58:45 am
Post by: cephalo on October 02, 2014, 08:36:02 am
Heheh, I'm just thinking of how this will look in game.
"Urist expresses the emotion of 'berzerk'."
Post by: Snaake on October 02, 2014, 12:25:39 pm
The many words thing for snow is actualy a myth. Like in german the natives up in the north use compound words. In german you have something like "Pulverschnee" which means very powdery snow.
...
Well, Finnish already has a few words for different kinds of snow that don't translate directly, even though we do have a powder-snow compound too, not to mention the somewhat more scientific terms for different shapes of snow crystals, which are also compounds and probably direct translations (to?/)from English.
Nuoska, tykky, and hanki come to mind. And the Sami and other reindeer-herding probably do have a few more... each. Oh, and those 3 were words for different kinds of snow on the ground. There's several words for snow falling too, even if the basic version is just "it's raining snow" (the direct translation-equivalent of "snowing", "lumettaa" is only used for when skiing slopes etc make/spread artificial snow).
Long way of saying that it's not as much of a legend as you might think. Of course some translation can almost always be made, but you end up losing some of the meaning that usually only natives understand.
Post by: Authority2 on October 02, 2014, 04:29:08 pm
Post by: Cobbler89 on October 02, 2014, 06:05:41 pm
As I understand it, what makes the "[northern-bound culture here] have [surprisingly large number here] words for snow!" thing a myth isn't so much that it isn't literally true as that people mistakenly think it's completely different from the surprising number of snow-related words used by any non-tropics-bound culture. In English, for example, we have snowing vs. flurries vs. blizzards, snowbanks vs. snowdrifts, snowflakes vs. "ice crystals" (sometimes synonymous and sometimes not), frost and some variations thereon, slush when the stuff is half melted... and probably more that I'm forgetting. Now, granted, we don't have individual words for light snow vs. heavy snow, dry snow vs. wet snow (short of slush), pure white snow vs. dirty street snow vs. yellow snow... but only because we don't do compound words much in modern English.
On the other hand, cultures do have interesting words for specific, nuanced things like "the way snowbanks made of unadulterated fluffy snow shimmer in the sunlight". Even if they don't have such words in relation to snow, they have some in relation to something. And that, really, might be more interesting to come up with some stock examples to demonstrate than the mere number of words that can be had for a given thing in varied contexts.
Post by: Rockphed on October 02, 2014, 08:30:40 pm
In the guessing thread I already alluded to the possibility that dwarves will have many names for things being inevitable. ;^) (I don't think "It was inevitable" is ever going to get old... it achieved instant mimetic status not unlike the killer carp, completely intolerable nobles, or the dwarven obsession with cheese; like them, it will probably be fondly remembered well beyond the era when it was dominant.)
As I understand it, what makes the "[northern-bound culture here] have [surprisingly large number here] words for snow!" thing a myth isn't so much that it isn't literally true as that people mistakenly think it's completely different from the surprising number of snow-related words used by any non-tropics-bound culture. In English, for example, we have snowing vs. flurries vs. blizzards, snowbanks vs. snowdrifts, snowflakes vs. "ice crystals" (sometimes synonymous and sometimes not), frost and some variations thereon, slush when the stuff is half melted... and probably more that I'm forgetting. Now, granted, we don't have individual words for light snow vs. heavy snow, dry snow vs. wet snow (short of slush), pure white snow vs. dirty street snow vs. yellow snow... but only because we don't do compound words much in modern English.
On the other hand, cultures do have interesting words for specific, nuanced things like "the way snowbanks made of unadulterated fluffy snow shimmer in the sunlight". Even if they don't have such words in relation to snow, they have some in relation to something. And that, really, might be more interesting to come up with some stock examples to demonstrate than the mere number of words that can be had for a given thing in varied contexts.
English has the weird habit of absconding with vocabulary. At some point we stopped trying to translate perfectly good words and just started using them.
Post by: Authority2 on October 03, 2014, 05:03:49 am
English has the weird habit of absconding with vocabulary. At some point we stopped trying to translate perfectly good words and just started using them.It's not even a unique trait - English is just a very visible example.
Post by: smjjames on October 03, 2014, 09:50:09 am
English has the weird habit of absconding with vocabulary. At some point we stopped trying to translate perfectly good words and just started using them.It's not even a unique trait - English is just a very visible example.
Mainly because the British Empire spread it all over the place.
Post by: flabort on October 05, 2014, 07:48:58 pm
PTW for the new thread.
Will the harvesting of fruit trees take fruit from the tree itself, or will it take from only the ground where they fall? Or both?
Post by: Shashu on October 05, 2014, 10:09:58 pm
Post by: lethosor on October 05, 2014, 10:15:56 pm
Will we have to generate a new game to get the full effects of the thought rewrite, or will preexisting dwarves start exhibiting the full range of new behaviors when imported to the new version?
Right now I think I can get through with a thought-wipe.Presumably, dwarves will exhibit the new behaviors after their thoughts are wiped.
Post by: Enemy post on October 08, 2014, 11:41:33 am
Thanks, Toady!Philosoph, Denker, Dummquatscher, Dummschwätzer, Sittlichkeitfabrik, Felsensitzen, Griechisch, fullen mit pelz, lebenhacker, klug Hans, Ubergenius. And there's your 11 words for Philosopher.Only Germans experience schadenfreude, zeitgeist or zugzwang! They also have 11 words for philosopher and 8 for psychologist! (someone who knows German back me up please)Philosoph, Denker, Dummquatscher, Dummschwätzer... nope, can't get to 11, and I cheated. :P
8 words for pyschologist:
Psychologe, gehirn Arzt, Sigmund Freud, dorf hexendoktor, kanapee fragesteller, gehirnhandwerker, Barmann, David Hasse..nein., geist klempner.
Note, I am not German, despite my* amazing command of the language, and translations may not be entirely accurate.
*Google translate.
Post by: smjjames on October 08, 2014, 02:52:01 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on October 08, 2014, 03:00:36 pm
A lot of those are slang anyway.A lot of them are a whole lot of nothing, actually. I don't think most of them would qualify in the original English, and babelfishing them just makes it worse (I'm not even sure what fullen mit pelz would be back-translated... "blah" with fur?). geist klempner is the closest to an actual German slang - Seelenklempner.
Post by: Dirst on October 08, 2014, 03:07:18 pm
Looks like füllen mit pelz literally translates to "full with fur" which vaguely resembles the English slang "stuffed shirt" (the shirt is more useful/valuable than the pompous person stuffed into it).A lot of those are slang anyway.A lot of them are a whole lot of nothing, actually. I don't think most of them would qualify in the original English, and babelfishing them just makes it worse (I'm not even sure what fullen mit pelz would be back-translated... "blah" with fur?). geist klempner is the closest to an actual German slang - Seelenklempner.
I tried to Google füllen mit pelz, with and without the umlaut, and came up empty. I don't think it's a common phrase in German.
Post by: Knight Otu on October 08, 2014, 03:25:11 pm
Post by: Enemy post on October 08, 2014, 03:42:44 pm
Post by: Dirst on October 08, 2014, 04:06:23 pm
I made them up.I had an inkling of that with Ubergenius, but what sounds silly in one language might be perfectly normal in another.
Post by: DG on October 09, 2014, 01:28:20 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: smjjames on October 10, 2014, 08:14:16 am
Post by: Inarius on October 10, 2014, 08:34:01 am
But I was wondering the same thing !
Post by: Untelligent on October 10, 2014, 09:54:42 am
Post by: Valtam on October 10, 2014, 10:14:08 am
I'm sure the devlog will bear fruit before the weekend's up.
Also worth noting that fruit will be ripe for harvesting pretty soon!
Post by: CLA on October 10, 2014, 03:18:00 pm
I doubt it would be useful to see every emotion, but will some emotions get their own status icon? Will some not be displayed anymore? Are "melancholy", "madness", "terrified" "enraged", etc even emotions in the sense we're talking about, or are they special cases?
Any chance we might even be able to set them to other tiles ourselves?
I'm not sure if this is the right place for the following question, but here it probably gets most exposure to people that could know an answer.
As the list in graphics_example.txt hasn't been updated for a while, which entries in entity_default.txt are eligible for a custom creature graphic? I assume all POSITION and PERMITTED_JOB entries, but some others are possible, even without being listed as POSITION; namely things like QUEEN, or BARON_CONSORT. They are only referred to as SPOUSE_<gender>. Can we assume that all these are valid creature graphic tokens as well? Are there any others?
There is some discussion about it here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144246.msg5713540#msg5713540) for the purpose of documenting it on the wiki here (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Graphic_set#Professions)
Post by: Cobbler89 on October 10, 2014, 08:47:38 pm
Yesssss... Yesssss! !!YESSSSSS!!
That's one less micromanagement facet for hunter-gatherer fortresses (or hunter-gatherer stages during the establishment of a fortress). Specifically, it's less the biggest micromanagement facet of such fortresses (or fortress phases).
Thank you, Toady One!!!
Post by: flabort on October 10, 2014, 08:49:56 pm
I'm sure the devlog will bear fruit before the weekend's up.
Quote
So far we've got plant gathering zones that renew gathering jobs, all gathering jobs now pick up usable item spatter on the ground in a 3x3 square, and gather jobs first process growths from a shrub and then only pick the shrub if the shrub itself is usable. Since there are a variety of growths that can be grabbed at one time, I'm also experimenting with multi-item hauls, though that hasn't moved beyond the gather job yet. There'll probably need to be an upgrade to zones at some point that allow them to handle z-coords and cover more space, but that's a little out of scope for this time. Next I'd like to allow dwarves to pick growths from trees, which of course will require some kind of stepladder or other tool if the fruit is a z-level above the ground.Or before it starts.
Post by: smjjames on October 10, 2014, 09:05:37 pm
Multi-item hauls! That'll definetly help take some of the PITA out of cleaning up after a goblin siege where the dwarves will only carry one sock at a time (which is silly) or when they haul heavy bins when it would be more efficient to get several lighter items and take them to the bin.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on October 10, 2014, 11:19:03 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on October 11, 2014, 01:23:14 am
Is widespread multi-item hauling within the scope of 0.40.xx?
Currently. Most defiantly, as presented by the Dev Log its part of Fruit Hauling and Fruit Hauling is part of the next release. Though the real answer, is it is until it isn't. And it wont be if the experiment fails or it seems solvable but too time consuming to solve it right now.
Post by: Putnam on October 11, 2014, 01:51:36 am
Quote
I'm also experimenting with multi-item hauls, though that hasn't moved beyond the gather job yet.
Post by: MrWiggles on October 11, 2014, 02:05:00 am
Post by: Putnam on October 11, 2014, 02:17:31 am
Post by: Zarathustra30 on October 11, 2014, 03:32:21 am
Post by: Putnam on October 11, 2014, 03:49:40 am
Post by: PigtailLlama on October 12, 2014, 08:05:57 pm
If ladders get implemented as a solution to the picking corundum, does that mean we have to build higher walls thanks to siegers carrying ladders on intent of scaling walls 1 or 2 z-levels high?
Post by: Witty on October 12, 2014, 10:37:55 pm
Post by: DG on October 13, 2014, 01:46:46 am
Post by: dwarfed one on October 14, 2014, 02:14:28 am
Quote
Next I'd like to allow dwarves to pick growths from trees, which of course will require some kind of stepladder or other tool if the fruit is a z-level above the ground.I'm instantly imagined a goblin with stepladder going to my fortress walls.
Post by: Inarius on October 14, 2014, 06:44:02 am
Quote
I'm instantly imagined a goblin with stepladder going to my fortress walls.
That's what I thought, too.
Post by: cephalo on October 14, 2014, 08:18:46 am
Post by: Dirst on October 14, 2014, 09:39:50 am
Standing on the top rung of a step ladder is extremely dangerous. I'm sure the dwarves don't care at all.This is a Dwarven stepladder. It has four parts, and all four of them are top steps.
Post by: Valtam on October 14, 2014, 10:22:35 am
Post by: smjjames on October 14, 2014, 10:59:00 am
Are ladders also useful for engraving second floor's walls in that 3x3 radius?
That would definetly be a future potential application.
Post by: Knight Otu on October 14, 2014, 11:05:37 am
But unlikely for the next version, I'd say. With such a specific focus for the feature, it's most likely that'll only work for harvesting tree growths.Are ladders also useful for engraving second floor's walls in that 3x3 radius?
That would definetly be a future potential application.
Post by: Mr S on October 14, 2014, 12:09:47 pm
Second !!FUN!! idea. Line your entry road to the trade depot with wooden ladders. Really piss off the elves.
Post by: CLA on October 14, 2014, 12:21:46 pm
Post by: PigtailLlama on October 14, 2014, 06:49:37 pm
QuoteI'm instantly imagined a goblin with stepladder going to my fortress walls.
That's what I thought, too.
And then I imagined one of my dwarves kicking the ladder off the wall, falling into the pit he just jumped over to get there...
Post by: cephalo on October 15, 2014, 08:25:55 am
And then I imagined one of my dwarves kicking the ladder off the wall, falling into the pit he just jumped over to get there...
Oh yes. Stepladders are one the most dangerous tools. In the real world, more injury and death by ladder than any other tool. (I recently attended OSHA training at my workplace.)
Post by: Mel_Vixen on October 15, 2014, 11:26:05 am
Post by: Knight Otu on October 15, 2014, 12:11:33 pm
How does a stepladder work though? Is it furniture? Is it a tool (like a bag or bucket)?I feel that the last dev log fully answered this - they are tools that get carried around.
Quote
I decided to go with a stepladder tool. Dwarves can build them, carry them around and climb up on them to access an extra 3x3x2 block of potential fruit above their heads
Post by: smjjames on October 15, 2014, 02:46:39 pm
According to the questlog, it started Slate 20th, it's now Limestone 14th. I've checked, the army commander is there in the second tent to the east. I actually visited it months earlier and had to check legends on the location of the commander, then went to the site and there it was, just outside the forest retreat.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9926
They're also all civillians for some reason, but that's probably a different bug.
Going to use fire to kill them so that I don't get the kills associated with me and see what happens next with the invasion.
Edit: Dang buggy army, they respawned again, although I didn't kill all of them the first time.
Edit2: They respawned again even after giving them a magma bath via DFhack.
Post by: Dirst on October 15, 2014, 05:06:16 pm
You know, the sleeping army bug (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6798) is probably holding up lots of post worldgen interactions, case in point, here's one which has had the army stuck sleeping at the departure point for almost FIVE MONTHS.Maybe this is why the invaders always win? :)
According to the questlog, it started Slate 20th, it's now Limestone 14th. I've checked, the army commander is there in the second tent to the east. I actually visited it months earlier and had to check legends on the location of the commander, then went to the site and there it was, just outside the forest retreat.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9926
They're also all civillians for some reason, but that's probably a different bug.
Going to use fire to kill them so that I don't get the kills associated with me and see what happens next with the invasion.
Edit: Dang buggy army, they respawned again, although I didn't kill all of them the first time.
Edit2: They respawned again even after giving them a magma bath via DFhack.
Post by: smjjames on October 15, 2014, 06:32:50 pm
You know, the sleeping army bug (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6798) is probably holding up lots of post worldgen interactions, case in point, here's one which has had the army stuck sleeping at the departure point for almost FIVE MONTHS.Maybe this is why the invaders always win? :)
According to the questlog, it started Slate 20th, it's now Limestone 14th. I've checked, the army commander is there in the second tent to the east. I actually visited it months earlier and had to check legends on the location of the commander, then went to the site and there it was, just outside the forest retreat.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9926
They're also all civillians for some reason, but that's probably a different bug.
Going to use fire to kill them so that I don't get the kills associated with me and see what happens next with the invasion.
Edit: Dang buggy army, they respawned again, although I didn't kill all of them the first time.
Edit2: They respawned again even after giving them a magma bath via DFhack.
Maybe..... I did think of that too... Should we make it into a FotF question?
Post by: Putnam on October 15, 2014, 08:28:40 pm
Post by: therahedwig on October 16, 2014, 04:42:05 am
Basically, the game doesn't calculate the full conflict yet, it doesn't look at anything either side is carrying, their tactics, their leaders, etc. It just goes 'army a attack site b, army a is now in control of that site'.
Post by: Putnam on October 16, 2014, 01:37:53 pm
Post by: smjjames on October 16, 2014, 02:05:34 pm
Yeah, it's an intentional placeholder. Not sure where this "bug" meme came from.
Maybe because there's a bug report on it?
Post by: Knight Otu on October 16, 2014, 02:20:09 pm
Not as far as I know. The bug (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8202) that you've linked to earlier describes a different possible bug that along with the placeholder of always winning causes a quick destruction of a civ, but it isn't the placeholder.Yeah, it's an intentional placeholder. Not sure where this "bug" meme came from.
Maybe because there's a bug report on it?
Post by: Mr S on October 16, 2014, 02:20:41 pm
Bug == (Feature - GameBreakThreshhold); +/- Coefficient of Suspension of Disbelief
Post by: Inarius on October 17, 2014, 02:10:32 am
Post by: Knight Otu on October 17, 2014, 02:17:30 am
Post by: PigtailLlama on October 17, 2014, 08:17:29 am
Post by: smjjames on October 17, 2014, 08:22:16 am
Once the stepladder is done, can wheelbarrows and minecarts get the same carrying capacity/stockpile moving treatment?
What do you mean by that? I get the wheelbarrows part, but I thought minecarts already have a carrying capacity treatment?
Post by: PigtailLlama on October 17, 2014, 08:50:45 am
Once the stepladder is done, can wheelbarrows and minecarts get the same carrying capacity/stockpile moving treatment?
What do you mean by that? I get the wheelbarrows part, but I thought minecarts already have a carrying capacity treatment?
By that I mean dwarves stack hauling tasks upon the container or tool used to carry said hauled item, instead of carrying them one at a time to the stockpile.
Post by: Dirst on October 17, 2014, 09:39:40 am
Well, the stepladder itself doesn't carry anything. It's just a tool being added at the same time multi-item hauling is being tested. This is mostly because having a Dwarf pick one apple at a time, and running each one down to a food stockpile 60m below ground, would be a bit silly.Once the stepladder is done, can wheelbarrows and minecarts get the same carrying capacity/stockpile moving treatment?
What do you mean by that? I get the wheelbarrows part, but I thought minecarts already have a carrying capacity treatment?
By that I mean dwarves stack hauling tasks upon the container or tool used to carry said hauled item, instead of carrying them one at a time to the stockpile.
My understanding of wheelbarrows is that it simply makes the hauled item "weightless" for movement purposes. Therefore, multi-item hauling ought to work well with wheelbarrows once the fruit-picking tests are completed.
I have this funny mental image of a Dwarf struggling to push a heavily-laden wheelbarrow up a set of stairs, insisting that somehow this is easier.
Post by: Mr S on October 17, 2014, 12:48:18 pm
Post by: smjjames on October 18, 2014, 09:05:22 am
Quote from: 10/17 devlog
some extra conversation options regarding the emotions of the person you are talking to and what they think about other people (including yourself).
Thank you! :D It'll definetly make it easier to understand (and perhaps analyze and bug check) peoples reactions and what the heck is going on or like why x attacked y.
Not a question, just saying thanks. :D
Post by: Robsoie on October 21, 2014, 03:57:02 pm
Will fruit be existing and harvestable in adventure mode (and will stepladders usable in there too ? ) ?
Post by: Putnam on October 21, 2014, 03:58:45 pm
Post by: Robsoie on October 21, 2014, 04:00:25 pm
edit : my bad, yes fruits too, never noticed that before :) .
Post by: Toady One on October 21, 2014, 04:01:52 pm
Post by: Robsoie on October 21, 2014, 04:02:44 pm
Hmm, some idea for roleplaying a merchant in my next adventures :)
Post by: smjjames on October 21, 2014, 04:06:48 pm
You can also pick the flowers or catkins or whatever off of the trees when they're there.
Post by: smjjames on October 22, 2014, 02:22:45 pm
Wonder if he'll release on the 24th because Civ:BE also releases that day. Hopefully Mike Mayday updates his tileset soon after or Fricy at least posts the compilation soon after.
Post by: PigtailLlama on October 26, 2014, 03:00:00 pm
Post by: Pseudopuppet on October 26, 2014, 05:40:33 pm
Post by: Inarius on October 27, 2014, 02:54:25 am
Dwarves live longer than 100 :)
Post by: taptap on October 27, 2014, 04:52:44 am
Post by: Cobbler89 on October 27, 2014, 07:33:45 pm
Quote
•Made weather init option clear up weather properly instead of just turning off the global simulationDoes this mean I can no longer play Dwarves in Washington State? 8^(
True story: I once tried to turn an entire 2x2 embark into a giant rain funnel. Only having so many murky pools at the top to make the rain turn into actual water kinda made it anticlimactic. I'd love to try again if/when sufficiently torrential downpours could put a bit of water on any surface, and see what happens.
Post by: Uronym on October 27, 2014, 08:06:55 pm
Quote•Made weather init option clear up weather properly instead of just turning off the global simulationDoes this mean I can no longer play Dwarves in Washington State? 8^(
True story: I once tried to turn an entire 2x2 embark into a giant rain funnel. Only having so many murky pools at the top to make the rain turn into actual water kinda made it anticlimactic. I'd love to try again if/when sufficiently torrential downpours could put a bit of water on any surface, and see what happens.
Surely there are some embarks that are rainy all the time, right? I don't know how the global weather simulation works...
Post by: Putnam on October 27, 2014, 08:32:15 pm
Quote•Made weather init option clear up weather properly instead of just turning off the global simulationDoes this mean I can no longer play Dwarves in Washington State? 8^(
i don't get this joke
i live in washington state
it's almost a desert here, excepting the occasional basement-flooding downpour
Post by: WillowLuman on October 27, 2014, 08:36:28 pm
Post by: Putnam on October 27, 2014, 09:14:33 pm
Post by: smjjames on October 28, 2014, 12:11:21 am
Not to do a shameless plug, but could you check out the repeatable town crashes (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8290)* and the midmap error crash (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1680)? For the midmap error one, it crashes so reliably for me that I try to generate worlds which don't have civilization sites on the right edge so that I can avoid it.
*Theres several different example saves in there, no idea if they all have the same cause and the third one is wierd in that the inhabitants react as if I'm hostile, or it's a goblin site, unrelated to the crash though.
If being a shameless plug like that is frowned upon for this thread, I'll remove the post.
Post by: LordBaal on October 28, 2014, 08:13:57 am
Post by: Dirst on October 28, 2014, 09:23:16 am
Post by: LordBaal on October 28, 2014, 09:42:13 am
Post by: tfaal on October 30, 2014, 05:12:10 pm
Also is there any difference, in terms of dwarf happiness or behavior, between the many different positive emotions? Will dwarves who are aroused by there spouses behave differently from dwarves who are feeling fond of their friends? What about dwarves who are "interested" by fine furniture rather than feeling pleasure from it?
Post by: Footkerchief on October 30, 2014, 06:15:53 pm
Probably means a lot more lethality for blunt weapons.
Post by: smjjames on October 30, 2014, 10:55:58 pm
What is the significance of the colors on the new thought screen? For example, arousal from talking to spouses, and fondness from talking to friends are cyan, while satisfaction from work and bliss from sleep are both green. What's similar about the cyan emotions? What's different between the green emotions and the cyan emotions?
Also is there any difference, in terms of dwarf happiness or behavior, between the many different positive emotions? Will dwarves who are aroused by there spouses behave differently from dwarves who are feeling fond of their friends? What about dwarves who are "interested" by fine furniture rather than feeling pleasure from it?
In a similar line of questions, what emotion is behind the 'stumbles around obliviously' (which happens to be a fast blinking light cyan exclaimation mark)? I thought maybe it was like the 'thousand mile stare' or something, but I'm probably wrong.
Also, might be helpful for companions to state why they were feeling depressed or 'stumbling around obliviously' and I've had insane/melancholy companions state they were fine when obviously they aren't.
Post by: Dirst on October 31, 2014, 09:36:10 am
In a similar line of questions, what emotion is behind the 'stumbles around obliviously' (which happens to be a fast blinking light cyan exclaimation mark)? I thought maybe it was like the 'thousand mile stare' or something, but I'm probably wrong.You've never had someone visibly upset just say they are "fine"?
Also, might be helpful for companions to state why they were feeling depressed or 'stumbling around obliviously' and I've had insane/melancholy companions state they were fine when obviously they aren't.
This leaves an opening for social skills to reveal the person's actual emotional state.
Urist McLonely: "I am fine." But his expression betrays that he is sad.
Post by: Untelligent on October 31, 2014, 06:11:19 pm
Quote
Stopped zombies from interrupting your sleep to ask if they can help you with something
Best Halloween bugfix ever
Post by: hermes on November 01, 2014, 10:48:52 am
QuoteStopped zombies from interrupting your sleep to ask if they can help you with something
Best Halloween bugfix ever
Heh yeah that's a good one that goes on the pile of hilarious bugs I never even encountered or heard about before. :)
Quote from: Bug eating Toad
Increased default embark points to compensate for more default equipment (stepladder etc.)
I can understand this from a reasonable-game POV but I never really understood the notion of adding crutches and whatnot to the standard embark. Do the dwarves seriously expect to get crippled before the carpenter's workshop is up and running? (Could be craftsdwarfs wkshop, am inebriated) In the same vein, do they really need to get those high-hanging mangoes a few weeks earlier?
Post by: LordBaal on November 01, 2014, 11:10:52 am
Do the dwarves seriously expect to get crippled before the carpenter's workshop is up and running?Expect? You could say they pretty much look forward for it.
Post by: Toady One on November 01, 2014, 03:12:51 pm
Quote from: cybergon
Is the way that time passes in fortress mode ever going to change? Or did you already put a ring on it?
I don't have any plans to change it. People like to see their dwarves grow up and so on, and I think you'd have to run the equivalent of a 144 year fort to see a baby turn into a child if you were running at adventure mode speeds. It's also difficult to support variable speeds. Nothing's permanent though.
Quote from: Dirst
As for growing up emotionally, do you envision this being part of the caste-like life stages currently planned? Or are you more interested in researching how people really mature?
I'd be more interested in modeling it correctly, loosely speaking, and I'd like to try to avoid using castes for too many things, since they are bulky and difficult to transition temporary states (wounds etc.) between at the moment. I'm not sure how it'll end up. There could be transformations that operate on one section of the creature's body/mind or another, but then the individual unit drifts from its caste entry, which is also a problem that can get out of hand if overused.
Quote from: DG
Will goblin invaders be subject to the new personalities/thoughts when invading in Dwarf Mode or will they be more homogenous brain-wise?
It all uses the same stuff... which can be strange and buggy, as you can see with the tantrum-throwing crundles and so on.
Quote from: CLA
With the new set of emotions, what will change about status icons?
I doubt it would be useful to see every emotion, but will some emotions get their own status icon? Will some not be displayed anymore? Are "melancholy", "madness", "terrified" "enraged", etc even emotions in the sense we're talking about, or are they special cases?
Any chance we might even be able to set them to other tiles ourselves?
I'm not sure if this is the right place for the following question, but here it probably gets most exposure to people that could know an answer.
As the list in graphics_example.txt hasn't been updated for a while, which entries in entity_default.txt are eligible for a custom creature graphic? I assume all POSITION and PERMITTED_JOB entries, but some others are possible, even without being listed as POSITION; namely things like QUEEN, or BARON_CONSORT. They are only referred to as SPOUSE_<gender>. Can we assume that all these are valid creature graphic tokens as well? Are there any others?
We have the new longer temporary states, which use new exclamation points -- every other temporary emotional state uses the dark blue exclamation point, but that's only for the ones that put a dwarf out of work. I think the downward red arrow has been claimed by the high stress states.
For graphics, it takes any unknown leftover string and just assumes you mean a position token.
Quote
Quote from: Zarathustra30Is widespread multi-item hauling within the scope of 0.40.xx?Quote from: PigtailLlamaOnce the stepladder is done, can wheelbarrows and minecarts get the same carrying capacity/stockpile moving treatment?
By that I mean dwarves stack hauling tasks upon the container or tool used to carry said hauled item, instead of carrying them one at a time to the stockpile.
Whatever job priorities entails is going to be the main post-bug push for 0.40.xx. It's unclear what's going to get picked up there at this point. It's also unclear how potential bugs like "bring half-full bin to single haul item" are going to be handled. So regarding multi-item hauling, I can't really hazard a guess. The stepladder isn't really related to the hauling tasks, since the dwarf carries all the haul items kind of like a pack mule from the caravan does, then they just peel off individual storage jobs which happen to be in related locations because all of the hauled items are of similar types. I haven't had to address how the dwarves pick different initial haul items to chain together or how they choose multiple destinations, which are the tricky problems.
Quote
Quote from: PigtailLlamaIf ladders get implemented as a solution to the picking corundum, does that mean we have to build higher walls thanks to siegers carrying ladders on intent of scaling walls 1 or 2 z-levels high?Quote from: ValtamAre ladders also useful for engraving second floor's walls in that 3x3 radius?
I didn't do anything either of these. Engraving high up's not really important until we get multi-z room definitions, though I can see how it would be aesthetically useful and how it would make it easier to engrave those rooms without staggering dig jobs.
Quote from: CLA
Will dwarves use backpacks to carry fruits, too?
It didn't come up, since they just carry them in their arms.
Quote from: Pseudopuppet
When do you decide it's time to work on the next major update? In a general way, I mean. At what point do you stop bugfixing and adding minor features and think "Yep, I think it's time to start working on DF20XX"?
I don't know that there's been a uniform way that works, except maybe the part where I say that I hope it doesn't happen that way each time before it happens. Ideally, there wouldn't be large releases, but it has also been the case often enough that we might find ourselves on a long road again before too many months have passed, all effort to the contrary.
Quote from: LordBaal
When do you plan to separate the loading time for ranged attacks, as for example crossbows firing slower than bows, and lend us the values for modding, like for example a repeating crossbow and such? It's in the plans?
I don't have a timeline for it. It's definitely in the plans. There are a number of actions that need to be moved over to the new system, and I think the only hiccup with ranged weapons is adding some sort of "loaded/ready" state to it that is governed by a new action. That's not hard, but it's just annoying enough to see it bumped a few times.
Quote
Quote from: tfaalWhat is the significance of the colors on the new thought screen? For example, arousal from talking to spouses, and fondness from talking to friends are cyan, while satisfaction from work and bliss from sleep are both green. What's similar about the cyan emotions? What's different between the green emotions and the cyan emotions?
Also is there any difference, in terms of dwarf happiness or behavior, between the many different positive emotions? Will dwarves who are aroused by there spouses behave differently from dwarves who are feeling fond of their friends? What about dwarves who are "interested" by fine furniture rather than feeling pleasure from it?Quote from: smjjamesIn a similar line of questions, what emotion is behind the 'stumbles around obliviously' (which happens to be a fast blinking light cyan exclaimation mark)? I thought maybe it was like the 'thousand mile stare' or something, but I'm probably wrong.
The cyan and green were just interpersonal vs. solitary good emotions, though really there'll be some circumstances that cause the lines to blur. The actual power of the emotion in terms of eustress or distress is based on the emotion and its numeric strength, where the emotion is determined by the personality+circumstance. Every circumstance has a base numeric strength, which can depend on things like how well you know somebody, but are mostly just numbers. The personality takes the emotion and can raise or decrease the numeric strength, so that a not-so-cheerful dwarf that should be feeling jovial-50 as a baseline might only feel jovial-20.
Overall, one dwarf might feel pleasure-50 at seeing a door, while another might feel interest-20, based on their personality facets and values. Interest is a level-one eustress emotion, so the dwarf gets a 20/8=2 eustress bonus each step, while pleasure is a level-two eustress emotion, so the dwarf gets a 20/4=5 eustress bonus each step (the levels one to four correspond to a divisor of 8, 4, 2 and 1). Things like anguish are level-four distress emotions, so anguish-75 would add 75/1=75 distress points each step. Several of the emotions are neutral, and don't effect the stress level. They only add their eustress/distress value while their sentence is bright in the paragraph -- the gray ones are just for informational purposes. The numeric portion of the emotion is invisible... it seemed clutterful to add intensifiers all over the paragraph. The eustress/distress levels of the emotions are pretty arbitary, but align more or less with the seriousness of the word.
I think I mentioned in a previous FotF that we'd be starting with this stress stuff, but the idea would be to have more secondary effects and behaviors from the emotions later. We have the temporary breakdowns, some running away and so on, but there's a lot more to be done.
The new temporary states like oblivious or depressed (and the old tantrums) are governed by relative anxiety, depression and anger propensities. The permanent states are governed in the same way (which has been the case).
Post by: LordBaal on November 01, 2014, 09:13:48 pm
Post by: Rose on November 01, 2014, 11:08:52 pm
Post by: jefam99 on November 02, 2014, 09:10:14 am
Post by: Footkerchief on November 02, 2014, 10:24:41 am
this may be the wrong place to ask, but i was curious. since my dwarves seem to party a lot, i was wondering if you planned to add holidays, like a yearly Christmas party, or something similar and randomly generated.
This is a popular suggestion, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=search2;params=eJwtzEEOgCAMBMC_ePHswfcQaJuAQWoKakj6eIvhtjvZrMfHFyDUVTddNMhIu6Ua-XXA55WpkdmgOxwEzXHJfe4rS3OYxCpShSnWhDL9z4PIC0TDyDmh7_UDj_IuWg..) and it's part of the long-term plan:
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
Bloat92, BETTER PARTIES, (Future): Official and commemorative parties. If it is a party for a unit, they can invite friends and family. If it is an official party, it can start from the top nobles and go down. There can be organized feasts and so on.
Post by: smjjames on November 02, 2014, 11:02:07 am
I removed some specific bug timing questions -- since they were either confirmed or crashes, there's not much more to say, anyway, and I should get to them eventually.
Aw come on, way to dodge the question. lol. I'm not slamming you or anything. Although for some reason I'm the only one even reporting on those crashes in towns, in my bug report log anyway.
Quote from: tfaalWhat is the significance of the colors on the new thought screen? For example, arousal from talking to spouses, and fondness from talking to friends are cyan, while satisfaction from work and bliss from sleep are both green. What's similar about the cyan emotions? What's different between the green emotions and the cyan emotions?
Also is there any difference, in terms of dwarf happiness or behavior, between the many different positive emotions? Will dwarves who are aroused by there spouses behave differently from dwarves who are feeling fond of their friends? What about dwarves who are "interested" by fine furniture rather than feeling pleasure from it?Quote from: smjjamesIn a similar line of questions, what emotion is behind the 'stumbles around obliviously' (which happens to be a fast blinking light cyan exclaimation mark)? I thought maybe it was like the 'thousand mile stare' or something, but I'm probably wrong.
The cyan and green were just interpersonal vs. solitary good emotions, though really there'll be some circumstances that cause the lines to blur. The actual power of the emotion in terms of eustress or distress is based on the emotion and its numeric strength, where the emotion is determined by the personality+circumstance. Every circumstance has a base numeric strength, which can depend on things like how well you know somebody, but are mostly just numbers. The personality takes the emotion and can raise or decrease the numeric strength, so that a not-so-cheerful dwarf that should be feeling jovial-50 as a baseline might only feel jovial-20.
Overall, one dwarf might feel pleasure-50 at seeing a door, while another might feel interest-20, based on their personality facets and values. Interest is a level-one eustress emotion, so the dwarf gets a 20/8=2 eustress bonus each step, while pleasure is a level-two eustress emotion, so the dwarf gets a 20/4=5 eustress bonus each step (the levels one to four correspond to a divisor of 8, 4, 2 and 1). Things like anguish are level-four distress emotions, so anguish-75 would add 75/1=75 distress points each step. Several of the emotions are neutral, and don't effect the stress level. They only add their eustress/distress value while their sentence is bright in the paragraph -- the gray ones are just for informational purposes. The numeric portion of the emotion is invisible... it seemed clutterful to add intensifiers all over the paragraph. The eustress/distress levels of the emotions are pretty arbitary, but align more or less with the seriousness of the word.
I think I mentioned in a previous FotF that we'd be starting with this stress stuff, but the idea would be to have more secondary effects and behaviors from the emotions later. We have the temporary breakdowns, some running away and so on, but there's a lot more to be done.
The new temporary states like oblivious or depressed (and the old tantrums) are governed by relative anxiety, depression and anger propensities. The permanent states are governed in the same way (which has been the case).
So, the 'stumbling around obliviously' is due to anxiety? Not sure if I'm understanding it right and 'stumbling around obliviously' doesn't seem like it would be due to anxiety. Maybe it just needs to be reworded, I don't know.
Though it does sound something like PTSD, no idea.
Edit: Dang quotes being funky.....
Post by: Quietust on November 02, 2014, 01:08:12 pm
So, the 'stumbling around obliviously' is due to anxiety? Not sure if I'm understanding it right and 'stumbling around obliviously' doesn't seem like it would be due to anxiety. Maybe it just needs to be reworded, I don't know.In the past, unhappy dwarves always threw tantrums. Now, highly stressed dwarves will either throw a tantrum, slip into depression, or stumble around obliviously. Which one gets chosen depends on the dwarf's personality the same way insanity does - tantrums lead to Berserk (influenced by anger propensity), depression leads to Melancholy (influenced by depression propensity), and stumbling leads to Raving (influenced by anxiety propensity).
Post by: DG on November 02, 2014, 10:47:05 pm
Post by: smjjames on November 03, 2014, 02:26:32 am
From toady one on the devlog: 11/02/2014Toady One The stress timer in adventure mode was moving far too quickly.
I bet this would explain the companions not seeming to decompress their stress very well and eventually going crazy. It'll also help the prisoners not slip into depression too much, which, as a game mechanic, just made waiting for them to recover even more annoying.
It may also explain http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8485.
Post by: Inarius on November 03, 2014, 01:13:27 pm
Post by: Mr S on November 05, 2014, 07:54:19 pm
Post by: Pidgeot on November 05, 2014, 08:19:59 pm
I have seen somewhere a few years ago you said DF had more or less 100k lines of code. With all the additions (DF 2012 + 2014), how much is it, now, roughly ?
3 months ago, Toady estimated it at 450k. (https://twitter.com/Bay12Games/status/495072149569146880) I'd imagine the real number to be slightly higher, since that was purely based on semicolons; function definitions etc. are likely going to add a bit.
Post by: Sergarr on November 08, 2014, 11:41:14 am
Really shows how much more has been added into the game.I have seen somewhere a few years ago you said DF had more or less 100k lines of code. With all the additions (DF 2012 + 2014), how much is it, now, roughly ?
3 months ago, Toady estimated it at 450k. (https://twitter.com/Bay12Games/status/495072149569146880) I'd imagine the real number to be slightly higher, since that was purely based on semicolons; function definitions etc. are likely going to add a bit.
Post by: Kumil on November 08, 2014, 12:15:07 pm
depression leads to Melancholy (influenced by depression propensity)Shouldn't this be reversed ? Depression is a stronger emotion than Melancholy.
Post by: Mr S on November 08, 2014, 01:24:50 pm
While melancholy can be described differently by various folks, being in a state of melancholy would seem to imply having passed some threshold of depression.
Post by: smjjames on November 08, 2014, 08:45:51 pm
Quote from: 11/8 devlog
I'm going to plug away for the next few days on the attackers/goblins-always-win issue for world advancement.
Awesomeness.
Anybody remember if the 'armies sleeping forever' bug/unfinished feature is related to the 'attackers always winning' bug or a completely separate problem?
Post by: Witty on November 08, 2014, 08:56:35 pm
Post by: smjjames on November 08, 2014, 09:04:46 pm
I was just wondering if they were related in some way.
Post by: Toady One on November 08, 2014, 09:11:39 pm
Post by: smjjames on November 08, 2014, 11:26:27 pm
Also, slapping [NO_SLEEP] onto the four main races will make them stop falling asleep in those camps, but while they will do local patrols, they don't do anything (even the armies on the march still camped at their departure point, which btw, are all civillians for some reason) and you can't do anything with the camped armies.
Post by: mndfreeze on November 09, 2014, 02:44:34 am
On performance, are there any plans to streamline or further increase the performance of the game in general? For example, offloading processing cycles to a high end GPU if you have one (or any GPU for that matter) so the CPU can do other tasks? And does the game support multithreading or is there plans for better multithreading support if it does have it? I know the complexities of this game are massive, but I have a pretty new high end gaming machine and for sure my system still starts to bog down pretty dang hard when I get up near 200 dwarves, forget it if a dragon is lighting my entire map on fire at the same time...etc.
Post by: Max™ on November 09, 2014, 05:48:05 am
As I recall Toady saying, he doesn't see himself as a programmer so much as a game designer (an awesome one, at that) who ended up hacking his way through a jungle of code with a machete he made himself. At this point he's many years along the trail, and some of the suggestions amount to "just rip up the jungle and replant it" though they may seem like "grab a new machete!" at first. I'm no programmer myself, but I have been running exclusively linux, and arch most recently, for years... so there are things I can do, and things I'm comfortable with regarding poking around at bits of code. I myself have gotten a really good grasp of PLAYING df, and am even comfortable with various minor modifications/and such... but just from what I know of how the game operates currently? That's one of those things that we could say, forgo any other features for an arbitrary period of time and hope Toady stumbles on a doable fix before too long... or we can keep playing with the new stuff and hope he stumbles onto said fix along the way, or perhaps someone here finds a way to do it and gets him to implement it.
He added in a lot of stuff with this update, the foundations for lots of cool things, but he's still dealing with a lot of the direct, less directly obvious, and chain-reaction kabooms from this as he goes.
tl;dr, he has plans, I think someone can find one of the listed version goals somewhere that relates to it, but it's a big interlinked problem with no quick fix that we know of yet.
Post by: Mopsy on November 09, 2014, 03:57:48 pm
« Reply #666 on: Today at 08:44:34 »
I have a question that may have been asked in the past...
...offloading processing cycles to a high end GPU...
...is there plans for better multithreading support...
Are you the Devil?
Post by: PigtailLlama on November 09, 2014, 05:47:08 pm
Post by: mndfreeze on November 09, 2014, 09:11:14 pm
« Reply #666 on: Today at 08:44:34 »
I have a question that may have been asked in the past...
...offloading processing cycles to a high end GPU...
...is there plans for better multithreading support...
Are you the Devil?
Ye.....I mean. No. Of course not. >;)
Post by: Urist McVoyager on November 09, 2014, 10:27:52 pm
I seem to recall that being mentioned in one of the FotF replies.
Post by: Putnam on November 09, 2014, 10:32:44 pm
Quote from: PseudopuppetWhen do you decide it's time to work on the next major update? In a general way, I mean. At what point do you stop bugfixing and adding minor features and think "Yep, I think it's time to start working on DF20XX"?
I don't know that there's been a uniform way that works, except maybe the part where I say that I hope it doesn't happen that way each time before it happens. Ideally, there wouldn't be large releases, but it has also been the case often enough that we might find ourselves on a long road again before too many months have passed, all effort to the contrary.
Post by: MrWiggles on November 09, 2014, 10:40:01 pm
Post by: SuicideJunkie on November 09, 2014, 11:58:22 pm
The numeric portion of the emotion is invisible... it seemed clutterful to add intensifiers all over the paragraph. The eustress/distress levels of the emotions are pretty arbitary, but align more or less with the seriousness of the word.What about using alternative words rather than separate intensifiers?
EG:
Urist was interested in a fine chair.
Vabok was fascinated by a masterwork statue.
Tosid was annoyed by being caught in the rain.
Sigun was vexed by being caught in the blood rain.
Sufficiently weak emotions could also lose their color to de-emphasize them.
Post by: Putnam on November 10, 2014, 12:30:18 am
Post by: Frogging101 on November 12, 2014, 06:47:54 pm
So I'm wondering what internally is the difference between world generation and the activated world? Why can't they both implement the same ways of simulating things?
Post by: cephalo on November 12, 2014, 08:21:37 pm
Post by: Toady One on November 12, 2014, 09:18:16 pm
Post by: cephalo on November 12, 2014, 09:49:05 pm
(weapon skills are taken into consideration, and before retirement you might want to appoint skilled weapon people to official positions so they aren't as likely to move to your next fort)
Nice! Ok so I think I can deduce that if weapon skills are taken into consideration, that numbers of troops must also be...
Right?
Post by: Toady One on November 12, 2014, 10:11:40 pm
Post by: Frogging101 on November 12, 2014, 10:34:58 pm
(that is what makes it weird -- it doesn't look at the non-historical part of the army, due to some annoyances I couldn't iron out in the short time I had... since your fortress is 100% historical, that gives you a significant advantage, and you already have the defensive bonus from being a fortress... so you should be almost unstoppable against vanilla civs, which is better than always losing. modded civs with strong historical critters will have roughly the same advantage they experience in world gen, in one-on-one combat)
What do you mean by non-historical? Isn't every named creature stored in history?
Post by: Toady One on November 12, 2014, 10:46:30 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on November 12, 2014, 11:18:06 pm
Is equipment available involved in any way? Eg one civ has access to steel and full coverage armor and the other to exclusively wood breastplates and spears?
And does the creature type matter in any way? eg; larger creatures getting an advantage over smaller ones, etc...
Post by: Toady One on November 12, 2014, 11:26:19 pm
Post by: cephalo on November 13, 2014, 09:34:00 am
I wonder though if you could just gen up some temporary soldiers before the battle to fill out the population, and then purge them when it's over. If one serves with distinction maybe you could elevate them to historical.
EDIT: Ok, I have a question.
What happens to non-historical army pops after a failed attack? Are they all killed? Are none killed? Is the army destroyed or does it just go attack elsewhere?
Post by: Sizik on November 13, 2014, 11:00:26 am
I'm a bit confused about world activation and how it is internally different from initial world generation. The latest update addressed an issue where attackers would always win whenever attempting to conquer a site in the activated world. As far as I can tell, this was an "intentional" workaround/stub because correctly determining the outcome wasn't implemented, and still isn't fully implemented. This struck me as odd because WG has been able to do this for a long time already.
So I'm wondering what internally is the difference between world generation and the activated world? Why can't they both implement the same ways of simulating things?
I'd speculate that the main difference is that post-worldgen simulation has to take into account the actions of the player. That includes both dealing with things the player has done (which are likely recorded in much more detail than happens in worldgen), and interacting with the player while they're currently playing (which happens in (semi) real-time).
Post by: Dirst on November 13, 2014, 11:32:53 am
I agree that always winning is better than always losing when it comes to player forts. I can see that it would be a significant task to do this exactly right.From the Announcements thread:
I wonder though if you could just gen up some temporary soldiers before the battle to fill out the population, and then purge them when it's over. If one serves with distinction maybe you could elevate them to historical.
EDIT: Ok, I have a question.
What happens to non-historical army pops after a failed attack? Are they all killed? Are none killed? Is the army destroyed or does it just go attack elsewhere?
Though the quirk of the system I mentioned in fotf (army pops not mattering) give defenders better odds in the abstract fights. The army pops aren't killed, but they don't fight either, and if their commanders and other accompanying historical figures are killed they'll retreat back home.
Post by: Rip0k on November 13, 2014, 03:57:57 pm
I'm a bit confused about world activation and how it is internally different from initial world generation. The latest update addressed an issue where attackers would always win whenever attempting to conquer a site in the activated world. As far as I can tell, this was an "intentional" workaround/stub because correctly determining the outcome wasn't implemented, and still isn't fully implemented. This struck me as odd because WG has been able to do this for a long time already.
So I'm wondering what internally is the difference between world generation and the activated world? Why can't they both implement the same ways of simulating things?
I'd speculate that the main difference is that post-worldgen simulation has to take into account the actions of the player. That includes both dealing with things the player has done (which are likely recorded in much more detail than happens in worldgen), and interacting with the player while they're currently playing (which happens in (semi) real-time).
pretty much.. but let's not forget the time speed weirdness. That is: in-game time speed of Fortress mode vs Adventurer mode vs everything else :P
Post by: Zarathustra30 on November 13, 2014, 07:19:20 pm
Edit: I was so excited about the Dev Page, i missed the DF Talk, which answered my question.
Post by: smjjames on November 13, 2014, 07:38:45 pm
I'm a bit confused about world activation and how it is internally different from initial world generation. The latest update addressed an issue where attackers would always win whenever attempting to conquer a site in the activated world. As far as I can tell, this was an "intentional" workaround/stub because correctly determining the outcome wasn't implemented, and still isn't fully implemented. This struck me as odd because WG has been able to do this for a long time already.
So I'm wondering what internally is the difference between world generation and the activated world? Why can't they both implement the same ways of simulating things?
I'd speculate that the main difference is that post-worldgen simulation has to take into account the actions of the player. That includes both dealing with things the player has done (which are likely recorded in much more detail than happens in worldgen), and interacting with the player while they're currently playing (which happens in (semi) real-time).
pretty much.. but let's not forget the time speed weirdness. That is: in-game time speed of Fortress mode vs Adventurer mode vs everything else :P
Yeah, I read somewhere that if fort mode was played in adventure mode timescale, you'd have to play the equivalent of a 117 year fort for a year to go by, or was that for 12 years to go by?
Post by: Footkerchief on November 13, 2014, 07:56:08 pm
I feel Jubilation at the recent confirmation of the Tavern Arc.
Are there plans to change the mechanics of citizen mastication and potation? (i.e. Will dwarves use mugs?)
Yes, mugs were mentioned in the QA section of the latest DF talk (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145645).
Post by: monk12 on November 13, 2014, 09:50:15 pm
Post by: crapabear on November 13, 2014, 11:02:28 pm
It looks like there's an entry for this floating around on the eternal suggestions page, currently sitting about seven ranks below "feces and urine"
Post by: reality.auditor on November 14, 2014, 06:27:49 am
Well, I hope that four major points mentioned in dev page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) will get their own separate releases. Otherwise you can kiss next decade goodbye.
Post by: hermes on November 14, 2014, 08:22:46 am
Post by: mnjiman on November 14, 2014, 12:20:36 pm
Post by: monk12 on November 14, 2014, 01:00:43 pm
Oh dear, it looks like bugfixing phase ended. :(
Well, I hope that four major points mentioned in dev page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) will get their own separate releases. Otherwise you can kiss next decade goodbye.
Quote from: DF Talk #22
The nice thing about this, I think, having it set up in four separate sections, clearly delineated, is that we at least know, unlike some of the previous releases, that there are going to be pauses, where we can do some bug-fixes, do some small suggestions, in between. We’re going to try our best to do, when necessary, releases while we’re actually working on one section. But at least we’ll have that, that we can have some breaks, that there’s not going to be another two-year release...
Post by: therahedwig on November 14, 2014, 03:03:51 pm
At what point during the development timeline will trading with civilizations in Fortress Mode be finalized so that trade exports affect the demands and exports of those civilizations? To clarify, right now you could trade a civilization hundreds of crafts or food every year and the value of those items do not adjust for the proceeding year. My question is when will this be adjusted/coded so that it matters what you trade and the amounts due to demands by other sites taking into account what you export.
That will still take a while, as it's effectively the next step in bringing back the economy, and as far as I can tell, taverns, fortress starting scenario's and job priorities come first. Arefacts are the closest thing to what you're describing, and those are basically... historical figures of a sort.
Post by: cybergon on November 14, 2014, 06:17:49 pm
And on a kind of similar note, do you ever plan on making civilizations go through some sort of progression so perhaps we see tiny groups of nomads who eventually become either a horde or settle as a tribe and then turn into a proper kingdom?
Post by: MrWiggles on November 14, 2014, 07:25:27 pm
I know that sooner or later every fortress falls and you can reclaim it afterwards with a group of brand new dwarfs. But will we ever have scenarios where we actually get a chance to continue the history of the original group as something like refugees or slaves who break free?
Sounds like a reasonable and interesting starting scenario. So the answer is probably yes, but no time line. The Dwarf Talk goes a bit more into starting scenarios, and the one listed there, was not the definitive list.
Post by: palu on November 14, 2014, 09:28:30 pm
Post by: mnjiman on November 14, 2014, 10:39:00 pm
Do you mean historical figures as in historical information data saved with each Civ Site?At what point during the development timeline will trading with civilizations in Fortress Mode be finalized so that trade exports affect the demands and exports of those civilizations? To clarify, right now you could trade a civilization hundreds of crafts or food every year and the value of those items do not adjust for the proceeding year. My question is when will this be adjusted/coded so that it matters what you trade and the amounts due to demands by other sites taking into account what you export.
That will still take a while, as it's effectively the next step in bringing back the economy, and as far as I can tell, taverns, fortress starting scenario's and job priorities come first. Arefacts are the closest thing to what you're describing, and those are basically... historical figures of a sort.
Post by: Putnam on November 14, 2014, 10:49:17 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on November 15, 2014, 07:16:36 am
Post by: Rose on November 15, 2014, 09:50:42 am
Artifacts are not historical figures. Historical figures refers only to the creatures you'll see in the legends mode "Historical Figures" listing.
Historical Figurines.
Post by: Inarius on November 15, 2014, 01:44:11 pm
Will there be any other types of games than dices ? I would be very interested if you could talk more about these (if you have already thought enough about it !)
Post by: Vattic on November 15, 2014, 01:51:26 pm
Will there be any other types of games than dices ? I would be very interested if you could talk more about these (if you have already thought enough about it !)
There will likely be card games too at least.
Quote
Toady:From DFTalk (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html).
It's all going in with ... There's going to be nothing wrong with having your tavern meeting hall, your dwarves decide to throw a party there, there happens to be a merchant there; that's actually part of the idea, to have your dwarves around those people so that one of your dwarves could challenge a visiting merchant to a Tacticus game or something and that was one of the main things we were planning to explore with that, these interrelationships and also just the games themselves. We were thinking, well, if you've got a dwarf and an outsider playing a game you should be able to pop in and control the dwarf and just pop up a little game screen and play with some games. The starting point for that was adventure mode, because of course going in a tavern and just rolling dice or playing a little game of some kind is a perfectly reasonable thing for an adventurer to do. The problem with adventure mode mechanics sometimes is that they don't make it into dwarf mode until way later, like with the combat reports where that kind of fighting was going on but you couldn't read the text of what actually happened until recently. The idea this time is to get the dice games and card games and board games - or whatever we end up adding first - into both modes at the same time, so that you'd be able to control your dwarves playing against the outsiders, and perhaps if your dwarves are playing with each other you'd be able to pick one of them to jump into. I'm not quite as certain about that but it might be required just to give you the opportunity to do this very much. If two people are playing a game at a table in a meeting hall then they're going to be playing that game for a certain amount of time, like several days in dwarf mode the way it works, or at least a couple of days ...
Rainseeker:
A very addictive game.
Toady:
So it'll probably just pop up a little notification in the top left corner, one of those little letters or something, just letting you know that you can jump into something if you want, and then you'd be able to pop in and play the game in frozen time, so no time passes while you're resolving it, and then when you leave the game would either adjourn or they'd continue sitting at that table for the same amount of time they would have, so that it doesn't feel like there's any meta-gaming going on that way. I mean jumping into someone's head and playing a game for them is already kind of meta-gaming, so it's not that big a deal. You could, if one of your gambling addict dwarves decides to gamble away your anvil or something, then maybe you can jump in there and win the game for him.
I'd like to know more too.
Post by: Urist McPanzerbeard on November 15, 2014, 06:19:20 pm
There will likely be card games too at least.I like the idea of cards having similar properties to coins, with art depicting historical events/figures and such, different sets of cards for different civs. Would be a pretty fun thing to collect in adventure mode too.
Post by: palu on November 15, 2014, 10:21:19 pm
Post by: smirk on November 16, 2014, 12:33:35 am
I have heard of randomly generated games. I'm so hyped !
Will there be any other types of games than dices ? I would be very interested if you could talk more about these (if you have already thought enough about it !)
From the latest DFTalk (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html#22.d) (important bits underlined):
Quote from: DFTalk 22
Toady:
Hehe. Yeah it's about time. It's about time for the instruments, and... We're also going to do dancing and storytelling and some other things that people can do in taverns. And this will also carry over in general to any parties that the dwarves throw, I mean once you have a tavern it'll be more likely that dwarves will throw a party there, but they'll sometimes will still throw them in the statue gardens or other places that you set up for them. But they'll be able to use their instruments and probably also have children playing with toys, just get all the items up and running. So you have this little bustling stuff going on in your fortress. People, for a while now, have been clamoring for the return of recipes, which we had very briefly, and those will make it back.
And your fortress will be able to kind of get a reputation based on the services you have available, and the quality of the drinks you're selling. And we're toying with the idea of having a local dish, that kind of thing. So that's all, that's all on the table for this, and in the notes . You'll be able to rent rooms to people. Finally you'll be able to have games. We're trying to randomly generate some games. We'll do what we can with dice games, and board games. They've have all been around for thousands of years so it's all fair, and your dwarves will be able to gamble, he he he. And we'll be able to... We're thinking because we have it in adventure mode anyway, the ability to play games when we do that part, which we'll talk about in a second, that you'll also be able to play the games directly if one of your dwarves is playing, just to give you a chance to see it, and to experience the game.
Threetoe:
And to stop your dwarf from gambling away all the treasure of your fortress...
Toady:
He he he. It's also important to understand what property means in the fortress because until we have that, perhaps the dwarves will be able to gamble away your entire crafts pile. And it'll be up to you to stop them, or to kill the guest with magma... He he, after they win your stuff.
Post by: Authority2 on November 16, 2014, 04:01:21 am
On the item is an image of dice, a siege and a dwarf. The dwarf is grasping for the dice. The siege is severing the dwarf, which flies away in an arc.
On the item is an image of gold goblets and a traveler. The goblets are being taken by the traveler. The traveler is laughing.
Post by: Inarius on November 16, 2014, 05:22:05 am
Quote
We're trying to randomly generate some games. We'll do what we can with dice games, and board games. They've have all been around for thousands of years so it's all fair, and your dwarves will be able to gamble, he he he. And we'll be able to... We're thinking because we have it in adventure mode anyway, the ability to play games when we do that part, which we'll talk about in a second, that you'll also be able to play the games directly if one of your dwarves is playing, just to give you a chance to see it, and to experience the game.
Well,smirk, it's AFTER reading this that I asked this question, not before. Quoting last DFTalk won't help a lot...what Toady said was interesting but, I want(ed) to know more, hence my question about if it was possible to have more details about it.
Post by: nomoetoe on November 16, 2014, 10:23:50 pm
How much do we have to donate to have you do a guitar piece per season?Enough to feed him and house him. c:
Post by: Clownmite on November 18, 2014, 04:39:04 pm
I know a more intensive linguistics rewrite is a later power goal, but I think especially with the world being activated it would make it a little easier to keep track of the hundreds of historical guys running around if some of them had slightly more "familiar" names / epithets.
On that note, are there any plans to be able to mark characters as "interesting" and/or be able add some brief notes to them that would persist through the modes?
Perhaps marking a character as interesting makes their name show up in light blue instead of white when their name comes up (similar to how PCs show up in Legends), so it's a little easier to track throughout the adventure mode screens. And when browsing Legends mode and you see him highlighted, you can add a note that he killed your character, and later you see these when he shows up in Fortress Mode.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 19, 2014, 08:38:28 am
Post by: smjjames on November 19, 2014, 09:21:10 am
Quote from: 11/18/2014 devlog
I cleaned up some crashes today. One of them involved a night creature that had wandered into a shop and killed the owner... the creature then somehow got assigned as the owner. The crash happened when the night creature tried to come up with things to say to potential shoppers, since it didn't have a civilization as a frame of reference. I fixed that part, but I still have no idea why it thought it should change professions in the first place...
Toady One, I just want to say, you're awesome :D and thanks for fixing the midmap error one.
Post by: Sergarr on November 19, 2014, 02:34:36 pm
When will places have names related to their particular features (naming a forest full of apple trees the Forest of Apple Trees, for example)?
Post by: Dirst on November 19, 2014, 03:08:39 pm
At what point in the future will places (like deserts and forests) have names which are not set in stone, but given to them by civilizations living near them?The response to these sorts of questions tends to be "Planned, but no specific time line" unless it's imminent in the current cluster of releases. I don't think overhauling names is in the current cluster (but I wouldn't mind being wrong!).
When will places have names related to their particular features (naming a forest full of apple trees the Forest of Apple Trees, for example)?
Post by: Knight Otu on November 19, 2014, 03:26:41 pm
Quote from: Dev page
Store region names by entity, not all places would have names, ability to give names to the regions/rivers/peaks etc. that you discover
Post by: LordBaal on November 20, 2014, 07:07:05 am
Quote from: Toady One
...a night creature that had wandered into a shop and killed the owner... the creature then somehow got assigned as the owner. The crash happened when the night creature tried to come up with things to say to potential shoppers, since it didn't have a civilization as a frame of reference. I fixed that part...
I imagine him... "oh! new costumers, and I didn't even finished eating the last owner, it's all a mess, I hope they don't notice... now... what do I say... hi... welcome, what can I... aghhh.... this is too hard!"
By fixed I hope you mean we have awesome daemons and werewolves running shops in a extremely baffling and amicable way...
Post by: Dirst on November 20, 2014, 10:52:21 am
Surprisingly, this is not a new problem.Quote from: Toady One...a night creature that had wandered into a shop and killed the owner... the creature then somehow got assigned as the owner. The crash happened when the night creature tried to come up with things to say to potential shoppers, since it didn't have a civilization as a frame of reference. I fixed that part...
I imagine him... "oh! new costumers, and I didn't even finished eating the last owner, it's all a mess, I hope they don't notice... now... what do I say... hi... welcome, what can I... aghhh.... this is too hard!"
By fixed I hope you mean we have awesome daemons and werewolves running shops in a extremely baffling and amicable way...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: smjjames on November 20, 2014, 11:04:37 pm
Surprisingly, this is not a new problem.Quote from: Toady One...a night creature that had wandered into a shop and killed the owner... the creature then somehow got assigned as the owner. The crash happened when the night creature tried to come up with things to say to potential shoppers, since it didn't have a civilization as a frame of reference. I fixed that part...
I imagine him... "oh! new costumers, and I didn't even finished eating the last owner, it's all a mess, I hope they don't notice... now... what do I say... hi... welcome, what can I... aghhh.... this is too hard!"
By fixed I hope you mean we have awesome daemons and werewolves running shops in a extremely baffling and amicable way...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
What movie is that clip from?
Post by: Frogging101 on November 21, 2014, 12:01:27 am
Surprisingly, this is not a new problem.Quote from: Toady One...a night creature that had wandered into a shop and killed the owner... the creature then somehow got assigned as the owner. The crash happened when the night creature tried to come up with things to say to potential shoppers, since it didn't have a civilization as a frame of reference. I fixed that part...
I imagine him... "oh! new costumers, and I didn't even finished eating the last owner, it's all a mess, I hope they don't notice... now... what do I say... hi... welcome, what can I... aghhh.... this is too hard!"
By fixed I hope you mean we have awesome daemons and werewolves running shops in a extremely baffling and amicable way...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
What movie is that clip from?
The Terminator (1984) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088247/)
Post by: CaptainArchmage on November 21, 2014, 09:02:05 pm
Quote
All breeding also occurs within touch range now, though there isn't a new activity for it or anything. Some more tools for breeding and animal population control are now in place. Due to the raw changes, it won't be available in old saves without tweaking the raws.
Wonder if this is going to change things for dwarves too?
Quote
Today saw the addition of an oft-requested feature -- the ability to geld! We stayed away from new parts, but there's a body part tag for it on appropriate male critters, as well as a job and so on. The job takes place at the farmer's workshop after the animal is designated in a way similar to slaughtering. The process is modeled with a wound within the existing framework.
This may have some interesting results in combat.
Post by: Putnam on November 21, 2014, 09:04:52 pm
Post by: smjjames on November 21, 2014, 09:11:23 pm
Nah, it just means that certain lower body wounds will cause sterility. It'll be more interesting for mods that add important parts.
Can a random lower body wound inflicted through combat or other cause, cause sterility now?
That is, is it possible via random chance to induce sterility outside of the gelding interaction (since it works via a wound) or is it only possible to achieve the sterility via the gelding interaction?
Hey, someone has to ask, lol.
Edit: added some clarification. The answer is probably no, but it's still a valid question.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on November 21, 2014, 09:21:29 pm
Edit: I mean, will there be a way to automatically designate a certain species/cast, or will we have to be on the ball?
Post by: Putnam on November 21, 2014, 09:37:03 pm
Will the gelding reaction be automated? If not, why?
Quote
The job takes place at the farmer's workshop after the animal is designated in a way similar to slaughtering.
Unless by "not automated" you mean "there's a little minigame".
Post by: Mel_Vixen on November 21, 2014, 09:58:09 pm
Also a werewolf should regenerate those too right?
Are there any behaviorchanges planned in the future to accommodate the new breeding? Like males going activly after females?
Post by: Cobbler89 on November 21, 2014, 10:53:54 pm
Catsplosion: another casualty of the gradual improvements in the Fortress.
Surprisingly, this is not a new problem.Quote from: Toady One...a night creature that had wandered into a shop and killed the owner... the creature then somehow got assigned as the owner. The crash happened when the night creature tried to come up with things to say to potential shoppers, since it didn't have a civilization as a frame of reference. I fixed that part...
I imagine him... "oh! new costumers, and I didn't even finished eating the last owner, it's all a mess, I hope they don't notice... now... what do I say... hi... welcome, what can I... aghhh.... this is too hard!"
By fixed I hope you mean we have awesome daemons and werewolves running shops in a extremely baffling and amicable way...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
What movie is that clip from?
The Terminator (1984) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088247/)
Urist McJunker wonders, "Why do the Snatchers only attack at night?"
Post by: Eric Blank on November 22, 2014, 03:09:41 am
Does the new breeding mechanic play nice with egg-laying critters?
Females spend nearly their entire adult lives on the nest box, because if one clutch is gathered late or hatches she will instantly lay another clutch in that same box, and they can't have other creatures sharing rooms with them because if one of those extras steps on her nest box tile she will get disturbed and the eggs die. Because of this, every other clutch dies because when one clutch hatches the female immediately lays a second, and the hatchlings immediately disturb her and thus kill the eggs, and the player must micro-manage egg layers pastures to get them to breed at a reasonable rate, which means only females, or only one female, per pasture. But with this mechanic, a male must share a room with egg-laying females, correct? Otherwise fertilization will never occur. But then the male must immediately be removed...
Post by: Knight Otu on November 22, 2014, 04:29:50 am
will the removed parts be *ahem* ready for consummation after the fact?No. There are no parts.
Also a werewolf should regenerate those too right?Transformation cures all wounds, neutering is a wound, so they should recover from neutering - not that I expect either weres or civilized creatures to be eligible for gelding.
Are there any behaviorchanges planned in the future to accommodate the new breeding? Like males going activly after females?Presumably there are plans, but likely there is no timeline.
Post by: Farmerbob on November 22, 2014, 07:25:14 am
This has the potential to cause some very strong emotional reactions in sentients.
Can dwarves or other sentients be neutered intentionally by the player?
If so, when a dwarf or other sentient is neutered, will it cause appropriate bad thoughts?
If both of these things have been considered, will neutered dwarves or sentients seek out lycanthropy or other potential magical cures?
If I neuter all the elves in a trade caravan, will their civilization declare war on my dwarves?
Post by: smjjames on November 22, 2014, 08:50:12 am
Post by: Knight Otu on November 22, 2014, 08:59:20 am
Post by: locustgate on November 22, 2014, 09:24:48 am
I wonder if Toady One realizes the can of worms opened here, heh.
How so.....if you eat beef there is a 80% chance that meat came from a castrated bull (steer), they are castrated because the lack of T causes less muscle development and more marbling, fat in muscle. Castration of house animals hasn't been entirely common until more recent times though the only real focus is a decrease/maintenance of population and avoiding people tossing kittens onto the side of the road because they were to fucking short sited to even give it a though of neutering a cat instead of killing a litter of kittens ever few months, may they be castrated themselves. I doubt Toady will allow players to castrate people, as it is seen as a form of torture which dwarves are 100% against.......the players not so much. Also didn't toady say he wouldn't add torture?
Which brings my question:
Will castrating cows affect meat production......eventually
Post by: Footkerchief on November 22, 2014, 10:27:29 am
Can dwarves or other sentients be neutered intentionally by the player?
If so, when a dwarf or other sentient is neutered, will it cause appropriate bad thoughts?
If both of these things have been considered, will neutered dwarves or sentients seek out lycanthropy or other potential magical cures?
If I neuter all the elves in a trade caravan, will their civilization declare war on my dwarves?
It only works through the Farmer's Workshop, just like designating slaughtering at the Butcher, so sentients aren't taken into consideration.
Post by: Nopenope on November 22, 2014, 11:57:18 am
Toady, since you've made it clear in your last talk that you intend to break away from the much frustrating dev cycles with long hiatuses, how do you know whether a release will include a feature worth upgrading to .41.01 (or higher)? As you progress, do you usually know when you intend to add such a feature, and do you know what it will be?
Post by: Knight Otu on November 22, 2014, 12:04:17 pm
Post by: smirk on November 22, 2014, 12:15:27 pm
Quote from: devlog
To avoid having to create new bodies for the males, there was also a small addition to the raws to allow body part tags to be added/removed after a caste has bodies. It only works with the simple tags like LOWERBODY/STANCE/SIGHT/GUTS/etc. rather than tissue flags at this point, but it's useful for a few things. For example, after declaring the male caste, [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_TYPE:LOWERBODY][BP_ADD_TYPE:GELDABLE].
This is pretty cool. Anything that makes raws more flexible makes me happy.
Toady, would you consider allowing those tissue flags to be modified the same way at some point, or would it be too complicated on the programming end to bother with?
Post by: Nopenope on November 22, 2014, 01:10:45 pm
Toady no longer uses the Cores to determine version numbers. IIRC, he still has a list on what certain features are "worth" for version numbers, but that list isn't public. Besides, he doesn't decide on the version number until the release is feature-complete.Ah. Since when did he abandon the core system? I guess the wiki should reflect this. Nevertheless, the question still stands, if appropriately edited.
Post by: Knight Otu on November 22, 2014, 01:18:30 pm
I believe he abandoned it with version 0.31.01.Toady no longer uses the Cores to determine version numbers. IIRC, he still has a list on what certain features are "worth" for version numbers, but that list isn't public. Besides, he doesn't decide on the version number until the release is feature-complete.Ah. Since when did he abandon the core system? I guess the wiki should reflect this. Nevertheless, the question still stands, if appropriately edited.
Post by: Nopenope on November 22, 2014, 01:30:00 pm
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Version_number
Post by: Putnam on November 22, 2014, 04:16:42 pm
Hrm,
This has the potential to cause some very strong emotional reactions in sentients.
Can dwarves or other sentients be neutered intentionally by the player?
If so, when a dwarf or other sentient is neutered, will it cause appropriate bad thoughts?
If both of these things have been considered, will neutered dwarves or sentients seek out lycanthropy or other potential magical cures?
If I neuter all the elves in a trade caravan, will their civilization declare war on my dwarves?
Quote
The job takes place at the farmer's workshop after the animal is designated in a way similar to slaughtering.
Since just quoting that doesn't seem to work... slaughtering is designated in the Z->animals menu. It only counts for animals. You cannot do it to anything other than fortress animals, and when you designate them, the creature is dragged to the butcher's shop and slaughtered. Gelding is the same, except they're dragged to the farmer's workshop and gelded.
Post by: reality.auditor on November 22, 2014, 04:47:54 pm
Toady probably will have to address it after complaints of players.
Post by: Toady One on November 22, 2014, 04:56:16 pm
they can't have other creatures sharing rooms with them because if one of those extras steps on her nest box tile she will get disturbed and the eggs die. Because of this, every other clutch dies because when one clutch hatches the female immediately lays a second, and the hatchlings immediately disturb her and thus kill the eggs
I couldn't find a bug report for this -- the eggs are supposed to last a week unattended, the egg-sitting behavior is fairly high priority, and the timer resets if there is any sitting at all, so minor disturbances shouldn't matter. I don't have a lot of in-game experience though -- does the weekly timer seem to be broken? Or do they not go back to their box?
Post by: Eric Blank on November 22, 2014, 05:47:14 pm
Post by: Calathar on November 22, 2014, 06:10:24 pm
I couldn't find a bug report for this -- the eggs are supposed to last a week unattended, the egg-sitting behavior is fairly high priority, and the timer resets if there is any sitting at all, so minor disturbances shouldn't matter. I don't have a lot of in-game experience though -- does the weekly timer seem to be broken? Or do they not go back to their box?I believe there is some confusion over how egg laying worked exactly (I didn't know there was a weekly timer, and it isn't mentioned on the wiki). There are a lot of variables involved, mainly due to whether or not the eggs are fertilized. It is hard to tell if the eggs failed to hatch due to an egg-layer with insufficient time on the nest box, interruption by other creatures, or because the egg wasn't fertilized in the first place. I was under the impression that the bird needed to stay on the nest box the whole time, and no creature could ever be on the nest box other than the mother, or the eggs would never hatch. However, I vaguely remember seeing an elk bird move off of a nest box (for training as I recall), thinking the eggs were ruined, then seeing them hatch anyway.
The concern is that you'll need males close to the females under the new system, and current approaches to handle the confusion (I'm looking at you, Incubation Chamber on the wiki http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Nest_box) don't have them present. It's hard enough to tell if eggs are fertilized as they are now (you essentially just wait two seasons and hope something hatches), and it seems that it will be even harder in the future when you also need males (who may not even be interested in the females according to http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7651) nearby. On top of that, short times between eggs collected / hatched and laid would seem to make it difficult for the males to fertilize the eggs.
Post by: smjjames on November 22, 2014, 06:26:43 pm
they can't have other creatures sharing rooms with them because if one of those extras steps on her nest box tile she will get disturbed and the eggs die. Because of this, every other clutch dies because when one clutch hatches the female immediately lays a second, and the hatchlings immediately disturb her and thus kill the eggs
I couldn't find a bug report for this -- the eggs are supposed to last a week unattended, the egg-sitting behavior is fairly high priority, and the timer resets if there is any sitting at all, so minor disturbances shouldn't matter. I don't have a lot of in-game experience though -- does the weekly timer seem to be broken? Or do they not go back to their box?
The Toady One does not have a lot of experience playing his own game? lol.
I don't think anybody knew of the weekly timer, at least I didn't see it documented. It might not be reported as a bug because nobody really knew how exactly it was supposed to work.
Post by: Sergarr on November 22, 2014, 06:30:44 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on November 22, 2014, 06:58:40 pm
Post by: locustgate on November 22, 2014, 08:48:44 pm
When will items have their own descriptions and prefstrings (analogous to the creature ones)? I'd love to see a dwarf that "likes mugs for their roundness" or something silly like that.
No offense, but why? It seems like it would just slow down the game for no real reason, sorry I'm not trying to be mean I honestly wonder why someone would like an item over something else, a weapon is understandable, but a cup, plate, fork, etc, doesn't really make sense to me.
Post by: Putnam on November 22, 2014, 09:19:52 pm
When will items have their own descriptions and prefstrings (analogous to the creature ones)? I'd love to see a dwarf that "likes mugs for their roundness" or something silly like that.
No offense, but why? It seems like it would just slow down the game for no real reason, sorry I'm not trying to be mean I honestly wonder why someone would like an item over something else, a weapon is understandable, but a cup, plate, fork, etc, doesn't really make sense to me.
I don't see where that was said at all.
Post by: BlackFlyme on November 22, 2014, 09:53:45 pm
When will items have their own descriptions and prefstrings (analogous to the creature ones)? I'd love to see a dwarf that "likes mugs for their roundness" or something silly like that.
No offense, but why? It seems like it would just slow down the game for no real reason, sorry I'm not trying to be mean I honestly wonder why someone would like an item over something else, a weapon is understandable, but a cup, plate, fork, etc, doesn't really make sense to me.
Having a preference for items is already in the game. Sergarr is just asking about custom prefstrings and descriptions for items, like what animals and plants already have. Though plants only have prefstrings.
Post by: King Mir on November 22, 2014, 09:58:34 pm
Post by: TBeholder on November 22, 2014, 10:02:59 pm
However, I vaguely remember seeing an elk bird move off of a nest box (for training as I recall), thinking the eggs were ruined, then seeing them hatch anyway.Perhaps for feeding (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4637)?
A dwarf training the bird visits the nest's tile and apparently it's okay. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106388.msg3157881#msg3157881)
Post by: Nopenope on November 23, 2014, 04:08:52 am
Post by: MrWiggles on November 23, 2014, 06:06:22 am
Back to naughty bits, is there any reason as to why females won't be neuterable just like males, since there isn't any new body part involved?
ToadyOne and ThreeToes have set a soft/hard limit to the technology of 14th century Europe. And spaying wasn't practice then. Its a pretty invasive surgery. Where as Gelding can be done as crudely, as tying a really tight know around the testis and waiting for them to fall off.
Post by: Authority2 on November 23, 2014, 07:00:22 am
Back to naughty bits, is there any reason as to why females won't be neuterable just like males, since there isn't any new body part involved?Probably moddable.
Post by: MrWiggles on November 23, 2014, 07:38:18 am
Back to naughty bits, is there any reason as to why females won't be neuterable just like males, since there isn't any new body part involved?Probably moddable.
Oh sure. Pretty much put the same tags for the Castes that lets gelding on the males to include females too. Should work out mostly fine.
Post by: Nopenope on November 23, 2014, 10:15:56 am
Post by: smjjames on November 23, 2014, 10:27:09 am
I'm feeling pretty talkative today (thanks to the people who replied to me by the way). Oh well, anyway, we all know about the way you go on tangents when something you want to implement requires a framework that doesn't exist yet so you add it, and then it turns out this framework requires another addition that you add in too and so on (such as world activation requiring full-fledged sites requiring elf orchards requiring fruit etc.) so my question is, what circumstances led you to add the ability to geld? What more "tangential" features do you think will be added along the way?
I don't think it was neccesarily any circumstances that led him to add it, he was just adding a commonly suggested thing.
As for tangenital features, some behavioral changes might be needed such as mate seeking. Though not to the point where they lust after the opposite sex, but I could imagine that bug showing up with all of your dwarves being hedonistic dwarves or something.
Not that having hedonistic dwarves would be a bug, but you have to find a point between too little and too much as far as game mechanics goes.
Post by: samanato on November 23, 2014, 10:44:13 am
Post by: xaritscin on November 23, 2014, 01:44:40 pm
will adventurers be able to tame or buy domesticated creatures? i mean, like getting war/hunting dogs or even exotic pets as aditional support. also exotic mounts
Post by: Knight Otu on November 23, 2014, 01:52:58 pm
i dont know if this has been asked or if i didnt saw it in the development plan but.Yes, this is planned (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html):
will adventurers be able to tame or buy domesticated creatures? i mean, like getting war/hunting dogs or even exotic pets as aditional support. also exotic mounts
Quote
Adventurer Role: Hero
*Mounts
**Can buy them as with livestock, handled as with livestock
Basic Adventure Mode Skills
*Raising livestock
**Ability to buy a livestock animal and lead it around
**Keep track of your animals as with hunted animals so they are not easily and permanently lost
Post by: Keldane on November 23, 2014, 02:29:40 pm
Post by: Putnam on November 23, 2014, 03:23:14 pm
Before I ask this of Toady, I'll ask this of the community - is touch range same-tile only, or is it adjacent tiles, like hand to hand combat?
Adjacent.
Post by: MrWiggles on November 23, 2014, 07:20:37 pm
Will gelding potentially change animal behaviour, making them less likely to fight for the pasture, for example?I don't think hormones are modeled (yet). If it did change behavior beyond the animal ability to mate, it probably would have been said. The post was just talking about changes to mating.
Post by: endlessblaze on November 24, 2014, 11:25:47 am
such as ◀Sword►
on the list. im craving a ◀!!<<bone Sword>>!!► just for the shear awesomeness of running around with a magical flaming bone sword. who cares bone is not the best material for a sword. its AEWSOME!
(even more awesome if its dragon bone and has fire opal on it)
Post by: Knight Otu on November 24, 2014, 11:34:58 am
Post by: endlessblaze on November 24, 2014, 12:28:18 pm
I also like the dip things in poison idea. I mean right now we have people leaving coins in evil clouds then coming to get them before throwing the coins at things and husking them, killing them by vomiting to death. all good ideas, personally I would love to fill a moat with fb secretions of death.
Post by: Sergarr on November 24, 2014, 02:38:27 pm
not sure if this has been asked already but how high is implementing the magic itemsIf Toady implements magic swords, they're more likely to have a random SPHERE effect.
such as ◀Sword►
on the list. im craving a ◀!!<<bone Sword>>!!► just for the shear awesomeness of running around with a magical flaming bone sword. who cares bone is not the best material for a sword. its AEWSOME!
(even more awesome if its dragon bone and has fire opal on it)
It may result in a sword which makes enemy very unhappy upon being hit. Or may render enemy completely unfertile. Or may curse enemy so that he will never be successful at fishing ever again. Or make enemy the worst trader known to this world.
There are many spheres.
Post by: Dirst on November 24, 2014, 02:42:17 pm
A skilled swordsman can do any of those things with a normal sword :)not sure if this has been asked already but how high is implementing the magic itemsIf Toady implements magic swords, they're more likely to have a random SPHERE effect.
such as ◀Sword►
on the list. im craving a ◀!!<<bone Sword>>!!► just for the shear awesomeness of running around with a magical flaming bone sword. who cares bone is not the best material for a sword. its AEWSOME!
(even more awesome if its dragon bone and has fire opal on it)
It may result in a sword which makes enemy very unhappy upon being hit. Or may render enemy completely unfertile. Or may curse enemy so that he will never be successful at fishing ever again. Or make enemy the worst trader known to this world.
There are many spheres.
(http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsbook/pb/inigo.jpg)
Post by: Keldane on November 24, 2014, 03:56:21 pm
Adjacent.
Much appreciated, Putnam.
Post by: endlessblaze on November 24, 2014, 04:13:20 pm
Post by: BlackFlyme on November 24, 2014, 04:25:42 pm
but isn't there a sphere for fire? I need to brush up on my sphere knowledge. I haven't checked them since I made that entity file
Spheres. (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Sphere)
Post by: endlessblaze on November 24, 2014, 07:29:46 pm
(endlessblaze cancels resume playing DF: discussing evil ideas on fourms)
Post by: Eric Blank on November 24, 2014, 07:36:56 pm
Post by: endlessblaze on November 24, 2014, 07:59:28 pm
what about rainbows?
rain could make it rain....but rainbows :-\
WAIT! I just rembered something could have more than one sphere... :o
darkness+fire
a dark flame that blinds those it touches (temporally)
rain+fire I think that goes without saying.
rain+darkness.....
think of the possibilities! :o the power. THE POWER!!! (endlessblaze is taken by a hopeful mood)
Post by: smjjames on November 24, 2014, 08:02:19 pm
And the birth sphere effect spawns babies of the species you're fighting whenever you strike them. :P
And the pregnacy sphere would um.... you know, impregnate, lol XD
Lets get our brains out of the gutter here though and look at another one, How about lightning? Shoots lightning or gives the target a massive shock. Mjolnir anybody?
Not all of them are suitable as spheres for weapons though, like coasts, what would you do for that? Though that's often paired with other water related spheres.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on November 24, 2014, 08:40:23 pm
I for one hope that IF such magical weapons come into play they alongside normal artefacts and named Antiques get properly bound into the history of the world, say by becoming artefacts of a religion and some such."The underpants of Saint Urist! He wore them for 7 years straight!"
Post by: endlessblaze on November 24, 2014, 09:02:45 pm
im thinking a weapon with one sphere could have different effects than a weapon with the same sphere.
like one sword with lighting sphere fires lightning bolt as a built in ranged attack while another sword shocks on contact.
it would be cool to see a bow/crossbow that shot lightning bolts instead of arrows/bolts and eliminate the ammo. or if that seems to overpowered for the great toads likening it could CHARGE the ammo.
the religion aspect could be interesting.
maybe a temple to a lightning god could have
(some DF language name here) deaththunder the snowing sparks
this is an magical artifact short sword. all craftdwarfship is of the highest quality. electricity courses through its blade.
it is made of silver and encircled with bands of gold opal. it menaces with spikes of gold. on the item is the image of a dwarf and (some god of lightning here) in silver.the (god of lightning) is smiting the dwarf.
the sword is considered sacred by the followers of (lightning god)
then if an adventure takes it without permission....ANGRY PRIEST! RUN!
it would be cool to see a helm or face veil with the water sphere allowing you to breath underwater (give it to a dwarf and build atlantics anyone?)
Post by: Spinning Welshman on November 26, 2014, 07:40:12 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on November 26, 2014, 08:10:32 pm
Post by: endlessblaze on November 26, 2014, 09:24:04 pm
Post by: Tomsod on November 26, 2014, 09:31:43 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
On a lighter note, I am about to start a cross-training program for my sworddwarves. This should help us against goblins, at least in long-term.
Post by: MrWiggles on November 26, 2014, 11:47:07 pm
Another single-purpose profession?Armor Making, Arms Making and Tool Making though they have synergies are different specializations. Or are you decrying the plethora of other jobs?We definitely need to do something to stop those skills from multiplying so much! Fortress needs smiths, NOT wax workers, armokdammit.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
On a lighter note, I am about to start a cross-training program for my sworddwarves. This should help us against goblins, at least in long-term.
Post by: golemgunk on November 27, 2014, 03:57:03 am
I had expected the job to fall under the labors of animal caretakers or dissectors, or maybe surgeons (good training eh?)
I thought surgeons too, since it's literally a surgery.
Post by: LordBaal on November 27, 2014, 09:11:04 am
So now animals don't reproduce with spores like the Orks from 40K?
Post by: Inarius on November 27, 2014, 12:50:25 pm
Quote
Added gelding and associated profession/skill/etc.
I also would have thought as either a medical skill (like surgery) or animal something (like animal caring or training). Creating a new competence for just gelding is (IMHO) a waste of time and clarity in skills unless....unless...it will eventually become a fighting skill :p
About multiplication of skills, I think someday Toady will simplify it and it will be much better after that, like for all things he did before. (first steps, densification, complexification, complete mess, then rationalisation and new system)
Why not creating, for example, a "Creating" skill, which will include potery,metalsmith,wax worker, leather, cloth, etc...and could be coupled with a material preference ? I know it's not the place to make suggestion, but here is my question related to profession anyway :
Do you plan one day of simplifying the profession tree, and if yes, could you tell us more about it ?
Post by: smjjames on November 27, 2014, 01:08:14 pm
anyways @mr-wiggles: He's probably referring to the farming category with its plethora of specializations.
Post by: Pseudopuppet on November 27, 2014, 03:22:28 pm
Also, thanks for adding gelding.
Post by: MrWiggles on November 27, 2014, 05:00:04 pm
Any more plans for optimization soon? Even with only 80 fort dwarves there is still quite a significant difference in FPS from .34 to .40. This is worrying for a lot of people.Nopes. ToadyOne has made it an urgent goal, to make DF run only as slowly as possible.
Also, thanks for adding gelding.
Post by: Putnam on November 27, 2014, 05:03:36 pm
Any more plans for optimization soon? Even with only 80 fort dwarves there is still quite a significant difference in FPS from .34 to .40.
I'd actually like to see the data on this! Mostly because speculating on causes of slowdown is my favorite counterproductive thing to do.
EDIT: No sarcasm, I really do enjoy speculating on slowdown causes even though that's a fruitless endeavor leading to nothing but sorrow if acted upon
...goddammit let me go on record as not making fun of anybody here
Post by: smjjames on November 27, 2014, 05:16:57 pm
Any more plans for optimization soon? Even with only 80 fort dwarves there is still quite a significant difference in FPS from .34 to .40.
I'd actually like to see the data on this! Mostly because speculating on causes of slowdown is my favorite counterproductive thing to do.
EDIT: No sarcasm, I really do enjoy speculating on slowdown causes even though that's a fruitless endeavor leading to nothing but sorrow if acted upon
...goddammit let me go on record as not making fun of anybody here
Theres several threads scattered around, this one is the most recent: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145703.0 , long discussion over here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143631.0, theres a few more threads further back and there's probably a few in the DF fort mode and general questions sections.
Other than the trees dropping leaves and fruit in the fall, nobody really agrees on what's causing the lag issues.
I don't think anybody has done a thorough scientific look at the possible causes yet. Though Toady One proably has better tools to do that.
I do agree that Toady One needs to urgently look at the FPS issues.
Post by: reality.auditor on November 27, 2014, 06:16:27 pm
Nopes. ToadyOne has made it an urgent goal, to make DF run only as slowly as possible.Sarcasm fail. Actually, Toady indeed makes DF run as slowly as possible - albeit unintentionally (by adding new features).
Post by: Putnam on November 27, 2014, 06:38:35 pm
Post by: smeeprocket on November 27, 2014, 06:42:40 pm
Anything more than that and my forts die fps deaths before they fall any other way.
Post by: endlessblaze on November 27, 2014, 06:49:22 pm
Post by: Tristan Alkai on November 27, 2014, 11:00:39 pm
Does the new breeding mechanic play nice with egg-laying critters?
Females spend nearly their entire adult lives on the nest box, because if one clutch is gathered late or hatches she will instantly lay another clutch in that same box, and they can't have other creatures sharing rooms with them because if one of those extras steps on her nest box tile she will get disturbed and the eggs die. Because of this, every other clutch dies because when one clutch hatches the female immediately lays a second, and the hatchlings immediately disturb her and thus kill the eggs, and the player must micro-manage egg layers pastures to get them to breed at a reasonable rate, which means only females, or only one female, per pasture. But with this mechanic, a male must share a room with egg-laying females, correct? Otherwise fertilization will never occur. But then the male must immediately be removed...
If Toady didn't change behaviour to reflect change (breeding on touch instead of spores), I predict that some species will have problems with breeding (egglayers?...) and it will be significantly slower in some cases (grazers on any bigger pasture, anyone?).
Toady probably will have to address it after complaints of players.
I also wonder whether the new breeding system will play nice with egg-layers. In earlier versions, I studied the wiki and decided that birds were the best livestock for leather production, and kept them for that purpose. With leather in mind, I actively (and, with very few exceptions, successfully) tried to avoid harvesting the eggs, which involved disallowing them in both the kitchen menu and food stockpiles. To ensure continued reliable supply with minimal micromanagement under the new system, I would like to see either an option to revert to the previous breeding by pollen behavior, or a way to disallow egg-layers from laying non-fertilized eggs. This sort of thing would especially benefit elk birds, according to what I have read about them on the wiki.
On the "disturbing the mother" issue: Back in 34.11, I actually had eggs hatch after I had slaughtered the mother on two separate occasions (both incidents involved geese, if it matters). According to my admittedly limited experience, eggs hatched very consistently unless moved to a food stockpile. Then again, I was following the recommendations of using a battery farm, albeit without the doors (I left space to install them later, but the area was off to the side with no through traffic, and hatchlings that were free to wander were much easier to pick up and move to a different stall).
This might also be the place to ask about a way to "automatically forbid eggs laid in this box" so they can hatch (I seem to remember forbidding the nest box itself and that not working). Better yet, "automatically forbid eggs laid in this box, then un-forbid them three months after they get laid," under the premise that if they haven't hatched by that point they never will. An automated system could keep track of when they got laid much better than the player.
Post by: reality.auditor on November 28, 2014, 08:52:59 am
If you really think that, then you have absolutely no idea what "as slowly as possible" means.In my book, adding tons of details that does not influence gameplay and almost never are visible in any way (except bugs, of course) certainly counts. It makes game slower for no benefit of anyone.
Post by: PigtailLlama on November 28, 2014, 11:42:56 am
Quote from: Toady One
- Got rid of mating-at-a-distance
Thank goodness. I'm running a fortress here, not a baby factory. Even then, if I was running a baby factory, it would be gobbo babies to use as catapult ammo.
Post by: Pseudopuppet on November 28, 2014, 02:06:37 pm
If you really think that, then you have absolutely no idea what "as slowly as possible" means.In my book, adding tons of details that does not influence gameplay and almost never are visible in any way (except bugs, of course) certainly counts. It makes game slower for no benefit of anyone.
World activation is required framework if Toady wants to go into further development of the economy and armies, despite it being almost unnoticeable during the gameplay of your fort.
Post by: endlessblaze on November 28, 2014, 03:28:36 pm
Post by: Putnam on November 28, 2014, 04:21:42 pm
If you really think that, then you have absolutely no idea what "as slowly as possible" means.In my book, adding tons of details that does not influence gameplay and almost never are visible in any way (except bugs, of course) certainly counts. It makes game slower for no benefit of anyone.
No, I am dead serious. "As slowly as possible" is a gigantic exaggeration. "As slowly as possible" is perfectly synonymous with "Your FPS is 1/(total age of the universe past present and future)".
Post by: MrWiggles on November 28, 2014, 08:09:51 pm
Post by: Authority2 on November 29, 2014, 04:34:16 am
Post by: Putnam on November 29, 2014, 04:42:21 am
By which I mean that I'm not speaking for Toady at all, just feeling the exasperation behind what's being said here without even being the target of it. It's that annoying an idea to me.
Post by: Authority2 on November 29, 2014, 05:21:44 am
Post by: reality.auditor on November 29, 2014, 07:01:13 pm
World activation is required framework if Toady wants to go into further development of the economy and armies, despite it being almost unnoticeable during the gameplay of your fort.No, world activation does not count, as it already influences game in very visible ways, like one of your 7 dorfs suddenly being king. That sometimes king has somewhat... unrealistic expectations is completely different issue.
Nope. Key word is "possible". Game that is so slow as you said wolud be impossible to play. So it is not possible that DF with this kind of speed would be released, let alone popular.In my book, adding tons of details that does not influence gameplay and almost never are visible in any way (except bugs, of course) certainly counts. It makes game slower for no benefit of anyone.No, I am dead serious. "As slowly as possible" is a gigantic exaggeration. "As slowly as possible" is perfectly synonymous with "Your FPS is 1/(total age of the universe past present and future)".
This all is tempest in teapot anyway, as all I did was aswering to somenone's else hyperbolic sarcasm.
Post by: Putnam on November 29, 2014, 07:32:45 pm
World activation is required framework if Toady wants to go into further development of the economy and armies, despite it being almost unnoticeable during the gameplay of your fort.No, world activation does not count, as it already influences game in very visible ways, like one of your 7 dorfs suddenly being king. That sometimes king has somewhat... unrealistic expectations is completely different issue.Nope. Key word is "possible". Game that is so slow as you said wolud be impossible to play. So it is not possible that DF with this kind of speed would be released, let alone popular.In my book, adding tons of details that does not influence gameplay and almost never are visible in any way (except bugs, of course) certainly counts. It makes game slower for no benefit of anyone.No, I am dead serious. "As slowly as possible" is a gigantic exaggeration. "As slowly as possible" is perfectly synonymous with "Your FPS is 1/(total age of the universe past present and future)".
This all is tempest in teapot anyway, as all I did was aswering to somenone's else hyperbolic sarcasm.
Nopes. ToadyOne has made it an urgent goal, to make DF run only as slowly as possible.Sarcasm fail. Actually, Toady indeed makes DF run as slowly as possible - albeit unintentionally (by adding new features).
is what I was replying to.
Post by: Toady One on November 30, 2014, 06:01:20 pm
Quote from: PigtailLlama
With the addition of fruits, nuts, legumes, and vegetables, what's the current planned roadmap of processed foodstuffs and meals?
The plan is pretty much to play around with it during the recipes section of the upcoming tavern stuff. That carves out some unspecified chunk depending on what can be done in a reasonable timeframe. I'm probably going to focus on the ingredients we have -- adjacent are yawning chasms of food production and preservation which are dangerous to timely releases, and I'm not sure how far I want to get into things like drink production rewrites and stuff like vinegar. I want a few more ingredients for recipes and so on, if they look time-safe when I get there. We should be seeing stuff like local recipes and specialties as part of this, though the scarcity of ingredients opens up the question of which substitutions are valid.
Quote from: Urist McVoyager
Is the current development plan to prolong this small-update development cycle as long as possible and see how far we can get with the minor patches and single-feature upgrades, rather than diving back deep into coding and coming back up for air in another year?
Putnam mentioned my reply to a previous question along these lines, and all I really have to add is that we've set up the upcoming four dev sections to at the very least be released independent of each other. I'm hopeful that those aren't the only release breaks we'll be able to have, but it's not known without having something to play with at which point in, say, the tavern section we'll have the first playable release. Just having the inn zones adds nothing and doesn't constitute a release, but finishing the randomized games shouldn't be required to have an enjoyable dwarf-mode tavern release. The latter two sections have similar issues. With Job Priorities, it's really a matter of how long it takes. I can release after the main job selection is rewritten if it ends up taking a while, but if it goes smoothly, I might be able to knock off the other bits as well and just release it all, which would save some time in that dig designation rewrites will tweak the selection loop. Hard to say until we're in it.
Quote from: Frogging101
I'm wondering what internally is the difference between world generation and the activated world? Why can't they both implement the same ways of simulating things?
The activated world has a great deal of additional information. The individual critters are more fleshed out, there's more information tracked for each site population, and there's more information to do with location. In world generation, we can take all the people generally in the same part of world and throw them into an army battle. After world generation, they need to be moved to the specific place where the battle takes place, and they leave tracking information as they move, etc., and when the battle actually happens, there's more data to be respected.
Quote from: crapabear
So once taverns/inns are implemented, we'll be up to two types of special rooms that are designated by placing furniture and then setting a zone (hospitals being the other one). I know you commented about this a bit in the new DF Talk episode, but do you think that now there's a good chance that all rooms and workshops will end up being defined this way?
I think we're leaning that way -- one of the open questions is how it ties into adventure mode work and where dwarf mode will end up in terms of tools and so on. The dwarf mode workshops are convenient to avoid a (further) proliferation of scatterable garbage that needs to be hauled around. I'd prefer for everything to converge toward something zone-ish so that we have one umbrella for the interface, but I still can't guarantee it'll work out that way. In the end, the workshop question can probably be punted in any case, if workshops are simply present in the zones but the zones handle all the action.
Quote from: mnjiman
At what point during the development timeline will trading with civilizations in Fortress Mode be finalized so that trade exports affect the demands and exports of those civilizations? To clarify, right now you could trade a civilization hundreds of crafts or food every year and the value of those items do not adjust for the proceeding year. My question is when will this be adjusted/coded so that it matters what you trade and the amounts due to demands by other sites taking into account what you export.
It would be foolish for me to guess -- we had supply/demand as a release with that earlier 9-release caravan/economy plan that didn't work out, and now all I know is that we'll have a more-than-sufficient framework in place once start scenarios are complete (with the corresponding property/law/etc. additions). It seems prudent to do sensible valuation before we get into theft and justice, but it wouldn't be strictly required. We'll have to see which way the game is heading when we set up the next ordered list of dev sections. The competition for the coveted fifth ordered dev section spot is intense, but we can't order too far ahead or we'll just end up changing it later (as with the caravan releases). I can almost never answer timeline questions with specificity.
Quote
Quote from: cybergonI know that sooner or later every fortress falls and you can reclaim it afterwards with a group of brand new dwarfs. But will we ever have scenarios where we actually get a chance to continue the history of the original group as something like refugees or slaves who break free?Quote from: paluAs part of starting scenarios, will starting dwarves be existing historical figures instead of being generated out of thin air? What about adventurers?
We've talked quite a bit previously about assuming individual previous historical critters. We don't really have a mechanism for playing a full group outside of fortress mode at this time, though we have dev items about single adventurers better able to lead groups and also playing as a "party". It would be funny to assume the role of your failed dwarves as an adventure mode party, assuming they were a small enough group. I expect start scenarios will be the first time we start to see historical options for dwarf mode, though I'm not sure which permutations we'll be trying. There's also the other sentiment we're mindful of that some people want to see fewer historical migrants so they can play certain kinds of forts. Hopefully a diversity of scenario options will address all of this.
Quote from: cybergon
And on a kind of similar note, do you ever plan on making civilizations go through some sort of progression so perhaps we see tiny groups of nomads who eventually become either a horde or settle as a tribe and then turn into a proper kingdom?
We had nomads badly done briefly somewhere back there, and it's still a constant in the code, but we're not sure when we'll do that properly. We have the refugee groups now that can resettle, but that's neither satisfying nor quite the same thing. Our subterranean animal peoples were another aborted experiment with camps. We would like to represent other civilization types, certainly, but it'll probably take a concerted push rather than whatever we've been doing.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
Are standard yearly player artifacts generally going to end up a little different from the full on god stolen paranoia breeding civilization symbolizing artifacts? Speaking of paranoia, will we be able to control the spread of information on our treasures?
Yeah, there will be significant differences in artifact standing. Some of the initial world gen ones will probably be beyond your capacity to create, at least for a while. The way the rumor system works now, we'd have to manually add the rumor for your artifacts, so the initial state is world ignorance of your achievement. We do want the information to get out -- it could end up working in a similar way as diplomats vs. your traps, unless you can brag about it or dwarves can have loose tongues (the invisible dwarf-mode conversations between dwarves and outsiders don't currently go deeply into rumors due to CPU constraints, aside from the giant news dump). It's hard to say what control you'll have -- it'll be ease of programming vs. fun, as with many things.
Quote from: Inarius
Will there be any other types of games than dices ? I would be very interested if you could talk more about these (if you have already thought enough about it !)
So far I've categorized the dice, board, and card/tile games I've found on wikipedia and elsewhere, decided which ones are more-or-less period (though that doesn't matter so much), made lists, done some code experiments and thought a bit. The idea is to randomize games starting from those templates, and then to get a little more adventurous over time once the code supports many almost-traditional games. The cut-off for the first random games release will probably be AI based -- we don't really mind if the opponents are terrible players, but utterly random moves are annoying (if unavoidable sometimes). Hopefully we can get at least one board game in without it being a total disaster.
Quote from: Ispil
How much do we have to donate to have you do a guitar piece per season?
It's hard to set aside enough time to feel like I can do a decent job with any of that these days.
Quote
Quote from: ClownmiteWe all love the nonsensical epithets that are generated for notable figures, but is there a chance of getting some more sensible ones intermingled in soon, such as "X the Swordsman", "X the Rock", "X the Wise", or "X One-eye" based on equipment, encounters, or physical/mental characteristics? I can imagine that, for instance, it would make it a little more engaging and easier to remember a journey to kill Bax the Pillager instead of Bax Cryptsquarreled the Foresty Glaive of Wandering
I know a more intensive linguistics rewrite is a later power goal, but I think especially with the world being activated it would make it a little easier to keep track of the hundreds of historical guys running around if some of them had slightly more "familiar" names / epithets.Quote from: SergarrWhen will places have names related to their particular features (naming a forest full of apple trees the Forest of Apple Trees, for example)?
It'll probably all have to wait for the language rewrite, since the current name storage is very restrictive. I can only refer to things in one specific way with a list of words that aren't linked tightly enough to the raws to refer to them directly as things stand.
Quote from: Clownmite
On that note, are there any plans to be able to mark characters as "interesting" and/or be able add some brief notes to them that would persist through the modes?
Perhaps marking a character as interesting makes their name show up in light blue instead of white when their name comes up (similar to how PCs show up in Legends), so it's a little easier to track throughout the adventure mode screens. And when browsing Legends mode and you see him highlighted, you can add a note that he killed your character, and later you see these when he shows up in Fortress Mode.
I don't have specific plans about this. Suggestions up in the suggestion section are welcome and read. It'd be interesting to see what sort of highlight systems would be most useful for people. I think I remember more suggestions about sorting.
Quote from: smjjames
Can a random lower body wound inflicted through combat or other cause, cause sterility now?
That is, is it possible via random chance to induce sterility outside of the gelding interaction (since it works via a wound) or is it only possible to achieve the sterility via the gelding interaction?
There are specific rare combat wounds complete with announcement. Perhaps too rare if nobody has seen them.
Quote from: Eric Blank
If we add a geldable tag to female critters, will this in turn allow specific females to be sterilized?
Yeah, it should work. I don't think I singled out males anywhere in the process (aside from the vanilla raws), but it can be reported as a bug if it isn't consistent.
Quote
Quote from: locustgateWill castrating cows affect meat production......eventuallyQuote from: samanatoWill gelding potentially change animal behaviour, making them less likely to fight for the pasture, for example?
Those doors are certainly more open now that the deed has been done. I haven't done anything with it yet aside from the actual reproductive effects.
Quote from: smirk
Toady, would you consider allowing those tissue flags to be modified the same way at some point, or would it be too complicated on the programming end to bother with?
Tissues are harder than tissue layers, since the tissue definitions aren't stored within the castes, so you can't apply changes to them for one and not the other. If you meant the tissue layers, that is pretty easy and is in my simple suggestions list. It's also reasonably straightforward though a bit harder to move variables from tissues to tissue layers so that they could be changed through a tissue layer method, at least for some of them.
Quote from: Sergarr
When will items have their own descriptions and prefstrings (analogous to the creature ones)? I'd love to see a dwarf that "likes mugs for their roundness" or something silly like that.
I have no idea -- item descriptions have lagged behind many other things in general... that screen has been nearly blank for many years. I'm not sure why that is. I think it might be because I'm waiting for adventure mode skills to bring forth item components or something, so it seems like a waste, but that only goes so far.
Quote from: Nopenope
we all know about the way you go on tangents when something you want to implement requires a framework that doesn't exist yet so you add it, and then it turns out this framework requires another addition that you add in too and so on (such as world activation requiring full-fledged sites requiring elf orchards requiring fruit etc.) so my question is, what circumstances led you to add the ability to geld? What more "tangential" features do you think will be added along the way?
Gelding was a common suggestion and was pulled off of the simple suggestions list. It wasn't really a tangent in the same way as many other additions. The suggestions board is filled with stuff along those lines, and the lists have all grown very long, so it's hard to say what'll be next.
Quote from: Inarius
About multiplication of skills, I think someday Toady will simplify it and it will be much better after that, like for all things he did before. (first steps, densification, complexification, complete mess, then rationalisation and new system)
Why not creating, for example, a "Creating" skill, which will include potery,metalsmith,wax worker, leather, cloth, etc...and could be coupled with a material preference ? I know it's not the place to make suggestion, but here is my question related to profession anyway :
Do you plan one day of simplifying the profession tree, and if yes, could you tell us more about it ?
I don't think it's an improvement to collapse everything down to one skill, though I think the current system suffers from a lack of overlap. At the same time, I'd like to separate experience/practice from knowledge (which could lead to some collapse of practiced skills, maybe). We had a kind of disastrous thing prepared for the Armok game, where the materials and different methods were taken into consideration, and I'm not really sure where we'll end up here. The new gelding stuff is a stark notice that things need to be adjusted, but a rewrite at the time would have been too time-consuming (since jobs/skills/professions/buildings are too closely linked), and the issue of bizarrely-specialized migrants is only tangentially related to the overall skill system -- there needs to be some sort of "life path" sim for non-historical critters, and the work histories of historical critters need to make sense. Even if somebody be trained as just a skilled gelder, it wouldn't have been a viable career for the average person.
The messiness of the skill system wouldn't matter so much if it weren't for the profession setting stuff, I suspect. We'll have to see how experiments play out with the start scenarios that remove/curtail v-p-l profession setting. Start scenarios would be strengthened by a knowledge system, but it's unclear what we'll get to. It'd be interesting to see how forts work if certain jobs can only be done in a tragically shoddy fashion if relevant knowledge is not possessed by any current citizens. It's the sort of thing that can be reverse-engineered into invention/knowledge advancement as well, though we have to be careful about that.
Post by: Inarius on November 30, 2014, 06:16:15 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on November 30, 2014, 07:05:40 pm
Thank you for your replies , Toady !
Hear hear!
Post by: Robsoie on November 30, 2014, 08:19:25 pm
About the "scenarios" and the player potentially leading dwarves surviving a fallen fortress, will it be possible through adventure mode to mount a "reclaim" army and try to force the goblins/demons out of your previously failed fortress they invaded , and then quit adventure mode and go to Fortress mode to resume the life of your reclaimed fortress with your victorious troops (assuming they managed it) instead of the usual new seven dwarves ?
I remember back in .40d you could reclaim your fallen fortress by leading sometime a big army of dwarves armed to the teeth and fight/die against the demons that were infesting the place.
It would be a lot of fun if this lost armed reclaim feature could make it back through the links between Adventure and Fortress mode.
Post by: Vattic on November 30, 2014, 09:22:50 pm
I remember back in .40d you could reclaim your fallen fortress by leading sometime a big army of dwarves armed to the teeth and fight/die against the demons that were infesting the place.
It would be a lot of fun if this lost armed reclaim feature could make it back through the links between Adventure and Fortress mode.
It will at least come back in some form. Toady mentioned it in the last DFTalk in relation to starting scenarios.
Quote
There's a lot of different directions that that'll go, but we've written them down on the development page to check out. For instance, reclaim mechanics can all be folded into the start scenario system: Why are you doing this reclaim, and what is the overall situation? Kinda bring back that situation we had before where you were allowed to take several soldiers with you, several groups of soldiers really, into the reclaim instead of just always starting with seven dwarves.From this transcript (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html#22.g).
Post by: Gashcozokon on November 30, 2014, 10:05:54 pm
We don't really have a mechanism for playing a full group outside of fortress mode at this time, though we have dev items about single adventurers better able to lead groups and also playing as a "party". It would be funny to assume the role of your failed dwarves as an adventure mode party, assuming they were a small enough group.
Reading this made me smile, and wonder if a starting scenario could be the reverse "Oregon Trail" type situation where you pick your location as per usual, but then watch the wagon progress via the Travel screen, dropping out to respond to ambushes or the like. Potentially finally settling in an unexpected location due to wagon damage.
Post by: Robsoie on November 30, 2014, 10:09:45 pm
It will at least come back in some form. Toady mentioned it in the last DFTalk in relation to starting scenarios.Thanks ! nice to see it's getting some thoughts.QuoteThere's a lot of different directions that that'll go, but we've written them down on the development page to check out. For instance, reclaim mechanics can all be folded into the start scenario system: Why are you doing this reclaim, and what is the overall situation? Kinda bring back that situation we had before where you were allowed to take several soldiers with you, several groups of soldiers really, into the reclaim instead of just always starting with seven dwarves.From this transcript (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html#22.g).
Post by: Cruxador on December 01, 2014, 03:50:17 am
Post by: Lord_lemonpie on December 01, 2014, 08:36:15 am
If not, will we at leats be able to sell captured invaders to human caravans?
Post by: caknuck on December 01, 2014, 10:10:29 am
Thanks!
Post by: Dirst on December 01, 2014, 10:43:29 am
The new gelding stuff is a stark notice that things need to be adjusted, but a rewrite at the time would have been too time-consuming (since jobs/skills/professions/buildings are too closely linked), and the issue of bizarrely-specialized migrants is only tangentially related to the overall skill system -- there needs to be some sort of "life path" sim for non-historical critters, and the work histories of historical critters need to make sense. Even if somebody be trained as just a skilled gelder, it wouldn't have been a viable career for the average person.
I've always kinda wondered where Strand Extractor migrants do their apprenticeships. There is another use for strand extracting bouncing around the Suggestions forum, but it's not (yet?) part of the core game.
Quote
The messiness of the skill system wouldn't matter so much if it weren't for the profession setting stuff, I suspect. We'll have to see how experiments play out with the start scenarios that remove/curtail v-p-l profession setting. Start scenarios would be strengthened by a knowledge system, but it's unclear what we'll get to. It'd be interesting to see how forts work if certain jobs can only be done in a tragically shoddy fashion if relevant knowledge is not possessed by any current citizens. It's the sort of thing that can be reverse-engineered into invention/knowledge advancement as well, though we have to be careful about that.
Maybe I'm reading too much into the bolded sentence, but it reminds me of all those contrived movie/TV situations where the expert needs to relay instructions to another character to defuse a bomb or treat a wound. Do you envision a task system where more than one Dwarf can be assigned to work together on the same job? Something like this already exists for squads, but the poor fisherman has to drag his giant sperm whale back to the butcher shop all by himself.
Post by: WillowLuman on December 01, 2014, 11:12:17 am
Post by: smeeprocket on December 01, 2014, 12:37:21 pm
Thanks Toady for the answers, and for the continued work on the game.The new gelding stuff is a stark notice that things need to be adjusted, but a rewrite at the time would have been too time-consuming (since jobs/skills/professions/buildings are too closely linked), and the issue of bizarrely-specialized migrants is only tangentially related to the overall skill system -- there needs to be some sort of "life path" sim for non-historical critters, and the work histories of historical critters need to make sense. Even if somebody be trained as just a skilled gelder, it wouldn't have been a viable career for the average person.
I've always kinda wondered where Strand Extractor migrants do their apprenticeships. There is another use for strand extracting bouncing around the Suggestions forum, but it's not (yet?) part of the core game.QuoteThe messiness of the skill system wouldn't matter so much if it weren't for the profession setting stuff, I suspect. We'll have to see how experiments play out with the start scenarios that remove/curtail v-p-l profession setting. Start scenarios would be strengthened by a knowledge system, but it's unclear what we'll get to. It'd be interesting to see how forts work if certain jobs can only be done in a tragically shoddy fashion if relevant knowledge is not possessed by any current citizens. It's the sort of thing that can be reverse-engineered into invention/knowledge advancement as well, though we have to be careful about that.
Maybe I'm reading too much into the bolded sentence, but it reminds me of all those contrived movie/TV situations where the expert needs to relay instructions to another character to defuse a bomb or treat a wound. Do you envision a task system where more than one Dwarf can be assigned to work together on the same job? Something like this already exists for squads, but the poor fisherman has to drag his giant sperm whale back to the butcher shop all by himself.
Please tell me how your fisherman caught a giant sperm whale! Those things don't generally get reeled in by anyone.
Post by: smjjames on December 01, 2014, 02:44:20 pm
Anyways, a sort of errorlog related query for you guys, I'm noticing that this save I have is generating lots of (20+) 'succession traveller out of bounds' errors while in the calendar screen. I haven't seen it do that before, and I'm thinking of making a bug report. However, that's the only thing to the bug, so I'm not sure if it's worthy of a bug report, then again, it could be indicative of some other problem. This is after my adventurer died, so it's not a fresh new game.
Not to mention that it's rather vague, like a 'theres this odd thing happening', and I have no idea how useful it would be to Toady One. It also happens when starting a new fort.
Edit: I think I'll just keep an eye on the save.
Post by: Putnam on December 01, 2014, 06:13:32 pm
Will we ever be able to enslave captured invaders/innocent elves, chain them up and make them do easy jobs?(e.g. Farming)
Dwarves consider slavery a capital offense; being a known slaver means you are executed.
Post by: smjjames on December 01, 2014, 06:21:10 pm
Will we ever be able to enslave captured invaders/innocent elves, chain them up and make them do easy jobs?(e.g. Farming)
Dwarves consider slavery a capital offense; being a known slaver means you are executed.
What about prisoners of war? I'm pretty sure there aren't any ethics tags regarding POWs and the Geneva Convention doesn't exist. Though there are general ethics for torture, so theres that.
Post by: Putnam on December 01, 2014, 06:58:34 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on December 01, 2014, 07:26:03 pm
Will we ever be able to enslave captured invaders/innocent elves, chain them up and make them do easy jobs?(e.g. Farming)
If not, will we at leats be able to sell captured invaders to human caravans?
specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0)
Was any consideration given to rolling the gelding task into the Animal Caretaker skill? If the Animal Caretaker skill/profession is intended to develop into a veterinary role, isn't having a separate skill duplicative?
Toady's last post covered this:
QuoteAdded gelding and associated profession/skill/etc.
I also would have thought as either a medical skill (like surgery) or animal something (like animal caring or training). Creating a new competence for just gelding is (IMHO) a waste of time and clarity in skills unless....unless...it will eventually become a fighting skill :p
About multiplication of skills, I think someday Toady will simplify it and it will be much better after that, like for all things he did before. (first steps, densification, complexification, complete mess, then rationalisation and new system)
Why not creating, for example, a "Creating" skill, which will include potery,metalsmith,wax worker, leather, cloth, etc...and could be coupled with a material preference ? I know it's not the place to make suggestion, but here is my question related to profession anyway :
Do you plan one day of simplifying the profession tree, and if yes, could you tell us more about it ?
I don't think it's an improvement to collapse everything down to one skill, though I think the current system suffers from a lack of overlap. At the same time, I'd like to separate experience/practice from knowledge (which could lead to some collapse of practiced skills, maybe). We had a kind of disastrous thing prepared for the Armok game, where the materials and different methods were taken into consideration, and I'm not really sure where we'll end up here. The new gelding stuff is a stark notice that things need to be adjusted, but a rewrite at the time would have been too time-consuming (since jobs/skills/professions/buildings are too closely linked), and the issue of bizarrely-specialized migrants is only tangentially related to the overall skill system -- there needs to be some sort of "life path" sim for non-historical critters, and the work histories of historical critters need to make sense. Even if somebody be trained as just a skilled gelder, it wouldn't have been a viable career for the average person.
The messiness of the skill system wouldn't matter so much if it weren't for the profession setting stuff, I suspect. We'll have to see how experiments play out with the start scenarios that remove/curtail v-p-l profession setting. Start scenarios would be strengthened by a knowledge system, but it's unclear what we'll get to. It'd be interesting to see how forts work if certain jobs can only be done in a tragically shoddy fashion if relevant knowledge is not possessed by any current citizens. It's the sort of thing that can be reverse-engineered into invention/knowledge advancement as well, though we have to be careful about that.
Post by: k33n on December 01, 2014, 09:22:45 pm
and
Have you updated to SDL2?
Post by: lethosor on December 01, 2014, 09:27:29 pm
No - DF still distributes SDL 1.2.13. SDL 1.2.15 works, as far as I know, but upgrading to SDL 2 could be a challenge.
Have you updated to SDL2?
Post by: k33n on December 01, 2014, 09:46:55 pm
No - DF still distributes SDL 1.2.13. SDL 1.2.15 works, as far as I know, but upgrading to SDL 2 could be a challenge.
Have you updated to SDL2?
Wouldnt SDL2 hardware acceleration solve everyones FPS issues?
Post by: mifki on December 01, 2014, 09:49:46 pm
No - DF still distributes SDL 1.2.13. SDL 1.2.15 works, as far as I know, but upgrading to SDL 2 could be a challenge.
Have you updated to SDL2?
Wouldnt SDL2 hardware acceleration solve everyones FPS issues?
They have nothing in common.
Post by: k33n on December 01, 2014, 09:51:16 pm
No - DF still distributes SDL 1.2.13. SDL 1.2.15 works, as far as I know, but upgrading to SDL 2 could be a challenge.
Have you updated to SDL2?
Wouldnt SDL2 hardware acceleration solve everyones FPS issues?
They have nothing in common.
So blitting 800 tiles with software has no performance effect?
Post by: mifki on December 01, 2014, 09:54:19 pm
No - DF still distributes SDL 1.2.13. SDL 1.2.15 works, as far as I know, but upgrading to SDL 2 could be a challenge.
Have you updated to SDL2?
Wouldnt SDL2 hardware acceleration solve everyones FPS issues?
They have nothing in common.
So blitting 800 tiles with software has no performance effect?
It's not done in software unless you have set PRINT_MODE to 2D. SDL 2 is just an another SDL version, they're all using OpenGL, no difference here.
But even in "2D" mode no, it has no performance effect because rendering is running on one core and world simulation on another.
Post by: k33n on December 01, 2014, 09:57:47 pm
No - DF still distributes SDL 1.2.13. SDL 1.2.15 works, as far as I know, but upgrading to SDL 2 could be a challenge.
Have you updated to SDL2?
Wouldnt SDL2 hardware acceleration solve everyones FPS issues?
They have nothing in common.
So blitting 800 tiles with software has no performance effect?
It's not done in software unless you have set PRINT_MODE to 2D. SDL 2 is just an another SDL version, they're all using OpenGL, no difference here.
But even in "2D" mode no, it has no performance effect because rendering is running on one core and world simulation on another.
mmmm, I dont think so. I program in c++ using SDL and have used both versions. There is no GPU use at all in SDL1, while pretty much everything is hardware accelerated in SDL2. And they don't use openGL at all.
Post by: monk12 on December 01, 2014, 10:07:05 pm
Will we ever be able to enslave captured invaders/innocent elves, chain them up and make them do easy jobs?(e.g. Farming)
Dwarves consider slavery a capital offense; being a known slaver means you are executed.
True, but didn't the ethics recently become less rigid and variable by individual dwarf? You might conceivably engineer a situation where all of your dwarves are sociopathic slavers which would make the interaction valid if you're willing to split off from the rest of your civilization's ethics.
It is the sort of timeline question where I expect the official answer to be "Sounds good, no timeline," but I seem to recall Toady touching on dwarf mode Prisoners of War and the like as part of the Thief arc... in a DF Talk maybe? Dunno.
Post by: Rose on December 01, 2014, 10:07:29 pm
A better question would be weather there's plans to upgrade the compiler and go for 64bit.
Post by: k33n on December 01, 2014, 10:11:11 pm
As a person who's delved into the inner workings of DF, including overriding the drawing, yes, it very much does use opengl.
A better question would be weather there's plans to upgrade the compiler and go for 64bit.
Oh, I wasnt talking about DF in general, just the SDL libs in my question.
Post by: mifki on December 01, 2014, 10:18:09 pm
No - DF still distributes SDL 1.2.13. SDL 1.2.15 works, as far as I know, but upgrading to SDL 2 could be a challenge.
Have you updated to SDL2?
Wouldnt SDL2 hardware acceleration solve everyones FPS issues?
They have nothing in common.
So blitting 800 tiles with software has no performance effect?
It's not done in software unless you have set PRINT_MODE to 2D. SDL 2 is just an another SDL version, they're all using OpenGL, no difference here.
But even in "2D" mode no, it has no performance effect because rendering is running on one core and world simulation on another.
mmmm, I dont think so.
As you wish.
Post by: smjjames on December 01, 2014, 10:44:21 pm
Post by: lethosor on December 01, 2014, 10:46:10 pm
Not to mention that DF usually only renders changed tiles (rendering of all tiles is usually only done when switching screens or resizing/zooming the window).So blitting 800 tiles with software has no performance effect?
It's not done in software unless you have set PRINT_MODE to 2D. SDL 2 is just an another SDL version, they're all using OpenGL, no difference here.
But even in "2D" mode no, it has no performance effect because rendering is running on one core and world simulation on another.
Edit: Removed some quotes
Post by: smjjames on December 01, 2014, 10:56:35 pm
Post by: lethosor on December 01, 2014, 10:59:04 pm
[SEASON_WINTER:A_D:D_D] should be the last line if you're using 0.40.19.
Post by: smjjames on December 01, 2014, 11:05:15 pm
Code: [Select]
BOX or DO_MEGA: the announcment will appear in a box and pause the game
P or PAUSE: the announcement will cause the game to pause
R or RECENTER: the announcement will cause the game to recenter (if possible)
A_D or A_DISPLAY: the announcement will be displayed in the main adventure announcement log (and on screen)
D_D or D_DISPLAY: the announcement will be displayed in the main dwarf announcement log (and at the bottom)
UCR or UNIT_COMBAT_REPORT: the announcement will be associated to the unit combat/hunting/sparring reports
UCR_A or UNIT_COMBAT_REPORT_ALL_ACTIVE: the announcement will be associated to any active unit combat/hunting/sparring reports, but if there are no reports it will not create one
[REACHED_PEAK:A_D:D_D:BOX]
[ERA_CHANGE:A_D:D_D:BOX]
[ENDGAME_EVENT_1:A_D:D_D:BOX:P:R]
[ENDGAME_EVENT_2:A_D:D_D:BOX:P:R]
[FEATURE_DISCOVERY:A_D:D_D:BOX:P:R]
[STRUCK_DEEP_METAL:A_D:D_D:BOX:P:R]
[STRUCK_MINERAL:A_D:D_D]
[STRUCK_ECONOMIC_MINERAL:A_D:D_D]
[COMBAT_TWIST_WEAPON:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_LET_ITEM_DROP:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_START_CHARGE:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_SURPRISE_CHARGE:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_JUMP_DODGE_PROJ:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_JUMP_DODGE_STRIKE:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_DODGE:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_COUNTERSTRIKE:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_BLOCK:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_PARRY:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_COLLISION:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_DEFENDER_TUMBLES:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_DEFENDER_KNOCKED_OVER:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_ATTACKER_TUMBLES:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_ATTACKER_BOUNCE_BACK:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_TANGLE_TOGETHER:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_TANGLE_TUMBLE:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_RUSH_BY:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_MANAGE_STOP:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_CHARGE_OBSTACLE_SLAM:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_LOCK:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_CHOKEHOLD:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_TAKEDOWN:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_THROW:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_RELEASE_LOCK:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_RELEASE_CHOKE:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_RELEASE_GRIP:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_STRUGGLE:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_RELEASE_LATCH:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_STRANGLE_KO:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_ADJUST_GRIP:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_GRAB_TEAR:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_STRIKE_DETAILS:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_STRIKE_DETAILS_2:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_EVENT_ENRAGED:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_EVENT_STUCKIN:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_EVENT_LATCH_BP:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_EVENT_LATCH_GENERAL:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_EVENT_PROPELLED_AWAY:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_EVENT_KNOCKED_OUT:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_EVENT_STUNNED:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_EVENT_WINDED:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_EVENT_NAUSEATED:A_D:UCR]
[MIGRANT_ARRIVAL_NAMED:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[MIGRANT_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[DIG_CANCEL_WARM:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[DIG_CANCEL_DAMP:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_DEFENDER:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_RESIDENT:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_THIEF:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_THIEF_SUPPORT_SKULKING:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_THIEF_SUPPORT_NATURE:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_THIEF_SUPPORT:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_MISCHIEVOUS:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_SNATCHER:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_SNATCHER_SUPPORT:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_AMBUSHER_NATURE:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_AMBUSHER:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_INJURED:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_OTHER:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[AMBUSH_INCAPACITATED:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[CARAVAN_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[NOBLE_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[D_MIGRANTS_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[D_MIGRANT_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[D_MIGRANT_ARRIVAL_DISCOURAGED:A_D:D_D]
[D_NO_MIGRANT_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D]
[ANIMAL_TRAP_CATCH:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[ANIMAL_TRAP_ROBBED:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[MISCHIEF_LEVER:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[MISCHIEF_PLATE:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[MISCHIEF_CAGE:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[MISCHIEF_CHAIN:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[DIPLOMAT_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[LIAISON_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[TRADE_DIPLOMAT_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[CAVE_COLLAPSE:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[BIRTH_CITIZEN:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[BIRTH_ANIMAL:A_D:D_D]
[BIRTH_WILD_ANIMAL:A_D:D_D]
[STRANGE_MOOD:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[MADE_ARTIFACT:A_D:D_D:BOX:P:R]
[NAMED_ARTIFACT:A_D:D_D:BOX:P:R]
[ITEM_ATTACHMENT:A_D:D_D]
[VERMIN_CAGE_ESCAPE:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[TRIGGER_WEB:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[MOOD_BUILDING_CLAIMED:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[ARTIFACT_BEGUN:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[MEGABEAST_ARRIVAL:A_D:D_D:BOX:P:R]
[BERSERK_CITIZEN:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[MAGMA_DEFACES_ENGRAVING:A_D:D_D]
[ENGRAVING_MELTS:A_D:D_D]
[MASTERPIECE_ARCHITECTURE:A_D:D_D]
[MASTERPIECE_CONSTRUCTION:A_D:D_D]
[MASTER_ARCHITECTURE_LOST:A_D:D_D]
[MASTER_CONSTRUCTION_LOST:A_D:D_D]
[ADV_AWAKEN:A_D:D_D]
[ADV_SLEEP_INTERRUPTED:A_D:D_D]
[ADV_REACTION_PRODUCTS:A_D:D_D]
[CANCEL_JOB:A_D:D_D]
[ADV_CREATURE_DEATH:A_D:D_D:UCR_A]
[CITIZEN_DEATH:A_D:D_D:UCR_A]
[PET_DEATH:A_D:D_D:UCR_A]
[FALL_OVER:A_D:UCR_A]
[CAUGHT_IN_FLAMES:A_D:UCR_A]
[CAUGHT_IN_WEB:A_D:UCR_A]
[UNIT_PROJECTILE_SLAM_BLOW_APART:A_D:UCR_A]
[UNIT_PROJECTILE_SLAM:A_D:UCR_A]
[UNIT_PROJECTILE_SLAM_INTO_UNIT:A_D:UCR_A]
[VOMIT:A_D:UCR_A]
[LOSE_HOLD_OF_ITEM:A_D:UCR_A]
[REGAIN_CONSCIOUSNESS:A_D:UCR_A]
[FREE_FROM_WEB:A_D:UCR_A]
[PARALYZED:A_D:UCR_A]
[OVERCOME_PARALYSIS:A_D:UCR_A]
[NOT_STUNNED:A_D:UCR_A]
[EXHAUSTION:A_D:UCR_A]
[PAIN_KO:A_D:UCR_A]
[BREAK_GRIP:A_D:UCR_A]
[NO_BREAK_GRIP:A_D:UCR_A]
[BLOCK_FIRE:A_D:UCR_A]
[BREATHE_FIRE:A_D:UCR_A]
[SHOOT_WEB:A_D:UCR_A]
[PULL_OUT_DROP:A_D:UCR_A]
[STAND_UP:A_D:UCR_A]
[MARTIAL_TRANCE:A_D:D_D]
[MAT_BREATH:A_D:UCR_A]
[NIGHT_ATTACK_STARTS:A_D:D_D:BOX]
[NIGHT_ATTACK_ENDS:A_D:D_D:BOX]
[NIGHT_ATTACK_TRAVEL:A_D:D_D]
[GHOST_ATTACK:A_D:D_D:UCR_A]
[TRAVEL_SITE_DISCOVERY:A_D:D_D:BOX]
[TRAVEL_SITE_BUMP:A_D:D_D]
[ADVENTURE_INTRO:BOX]
[CREATURE_SOUND:A_D]
[MECHANISM_SOUND:A_D]
[CREATURE_STEALS_OBJECT:A_D:D_D]
[FOUND_TRAP:A_D:D_D]
[BODY_TRANSFORMATION:A_D:D_D]
[INTERACTION_ACTOR:A_D:UCR]
[INTERACTION_TARGET:A_D:UCR]
[UNDEAD_ATTACK:A_D:D_D:BOX:P:R]
[CITIZEN_MISSING:A_D:D_D:UCR_A]
[PET_MISSING:A_D:D_D:UCR_A]
[STRANGE_RAIN_SNOW:A_D:D_D]
[STRANGE_CLOUD:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[SIMPLE_ANIMAL_ACTION:A_D]
[FLOUNDER_IN_LIQUID:A_D]
[TRAINING_DOWN_TO_SEMI_WILD:A_D:D_D]
[TRAINING_FULL_REVERSION:A_D:D_D:P:R]
[ANIMAL_TRAINING_KNOWLEDGE:A_D:D_D]
[SKIP_ON_LIQUID:A_D:UCR_A]
[DODGE_FLYING_OBJECT:A_D:UCR_A]
[REGULAR_CONVERSATION:A_D]
[CONFLICT_CONVERSATION:A_D:UCR_A]
[FLAME_HIT:A_D:UCR]
[EMBRACE:A_D]
[BANDIT_EMPTY_CONTAINER:A_D]
[BANDIT_GRAB_ITEM:A_D]
[COMBAT_EVENT_ATTACK_INTERRUPTED:A_D:UCR]
[COMBAT_WRESTLE_CATCH_ATTACK:A_D:UCR]
[FAIL_TO_GRAB_SURFACE:A_D:UCR_A]
[LOSE_HOLD_OF_SURFACE:A_D:UCR_A]
[TRAVEL_COMPLAINT:A_D:D_D:BOX]
[LOSE_EMOTION:A_D:UCR_A]
[REORGANIZE_POSSESSIONS:A_D]
[PUSH_ITEM:A_D:UCR_A]
[DRAW_ITEM:A_D]
[STRAP_ITEM:A_D]
[GAIN_SITE_CONTROL:A_D:D_D:BOX]
[FORT_POSITION_SUCCESSION:A_D:D_D:BOX:P:R]
[STRESSED_CITIZEN:A_D:D_D]
[CITIZEN_LOST_TO_STRESS:A_D:D_D]
[CITIZEN_TANTRUM:A_D:D_D]
[MOVED_OUT_OF_RANGE:A_D:D_D]
[CANNOT_JUMP:A_D:D_D]
[NO_TRACKS:A_D:D_D]
[ALREADY_SEARCHED_AREA:A_D:D_D]
[SEARCH_FOUND_SOMETHING:A_D:D_D]
[SEARCH_FOUND_NOTHING:A_D:D_D]
[NOTHING_TO_INTERACT:A_D:D_D]
[NOTHING_TO_EXAMINE:A_D:D_D]
[YOU_YIELDED:A_D:D_D]
[YOU_UNYIELDED:A_D:D_D]
[YOU_STRAP_ITEM:A_D:D_D]
[YOU_DRAW_ITEM:A_D:D_D]
[NO_GRASP_TO_DRAW_ITEM:A_D:D_D]
[NO_ITEM_TO_STRAP:A_D:D_D]
[NO_INV_TO_REMOVE:A_D:D_D]
[NO_INV_TO_WEAR:A_D:D_D]
[NO_INV_TO_EAT:A_D:D_D]
[NO_INV_TO_CONTAIN:A_D:D_D]
[NO_INV_TO_DROP:A_D:D_D]
[NOTHING_TO_PICK_UP:A_D:D_D]
[NO_INV_TO_THROW:A_D:D_D]
[NO_INV_TO_FIRE:A_D:D_D]
[CURRENT_SMELL:A_D:D_D]
[CURRENT_WEATHER:A_D:D_D]
[CURRENT_TEMPERATURE:A_D:D_D]
[CURRENT_DATE:A_D:D_D]
[NO_GRASP_FOR_PICKUP:A_D:D_D]
[TRAVEL_ADVISORY:A_D:D_D]
[CANNOT_CLIMB:A_D:D_D]
[CANNOT_STAND:A_D:D_D]
[MUST_UNRETRACT_FIRST:A_D:D_D]
[CANNOT_REST:A_D:D_D]
[CANNOT_MAKE_CAMPFIRE:A_D:D_D]
[MADE_CAMPFIRE:A_D:D_D]
[CANNOT_SET_FIRE:A_D:D_D]
[SET_FIRE:A_D:D_D]
[DAWN_BREAKS:A_D:D_D]
[NOON:A_D:D_D]
[NIGHTFALL:A_D:D_D]
[NO_INV_INTERACTION:A_D:D_D]
[EMPTY_CONTAINER:A_D:D_D]
[TAKE_OUT_OF_CONTAINER:A_D:D_D]
[NO_CONTAINER_FOR_ITEM:A_D:D_D]
[PUT_INTO_CONTAINER:A_D:D_D]
[EAT_ITEM:A_D:D_D]
[DRINK_ITEM:A_D:D_D]
[CONSUME_FAILURE:A_D:D_D]
[DROP_ITEM:A_D:D_D]
[PICK_UP_ITEM:A_D:D_D]
[YOU_BUILDING_INTERACTION:A_D:D_D]
[YOU_ITEM_INTERACTION:A_D:D_D]
[YOU_TEMPERATURE_EFFECTS:A_D:D_D]
[RESOLVE_SHARED_ITEMS:A_D:D_D]
[COUGH_BLOOD:A_D:D_D]
[VOMIT_BLOOD:A_D:D_D]
[POWER_LEARNED:A_D:D_D]
[YOU_FEED_ON_SUCKEE:A_D:D_D]
[PROFESSION_CHANGES:A_D:D_D]
[RECRUIT_PROMOTED:A_D:D_D]
[SOLDIER_BECOMES_MASTER:A_D:D_D]
[MERCHANTS_UNLOADING:A_D:D_D]
[MERCHANTS_NEED_DEPOT:A_D:D_D]
[MERCHANT_WAGONS_BYPASSED:A_D:D_D]
[MERCHANTS_LEAVING_SOON:A_D:D_D]
[MERCHANTS_EMBARKED:A_D:D_D]
[PET_LOSES_DEAD_OWNER:A_D:D_D]
[PET_ADOPTS_OWNER:A_D:D_D]
[VERMIN_BITE:A_D:D_D]
[UNABLE_TO_COMPLETE_BUILDING:A_D:D_D]
[JOBS_REMOVED_FROM_UNPOWERED_BUILDING:A_D:D_D]
[CITIZEN_SNATCHED:A_D:D_D]
[VERMIN_DISTURBED:A_D:D_D]
[LAND_GAINS_STATUS:A_D:D_D]
[LAND_ELEVATED_STATUS:A_D:D_D]
[MASTERPIECE_CRAFTED:A_D:D_D]
[ARTWORK_DEFACED:A_D:D_D]
[ANIMAL_TRAINED:A_D:D_D]
[DYED_MASTERPIECE:A_D:D_D]
[COOKED_MASTERPIECE:A_D:D_D]
[MANDATE_ENDS:A_D:D_D]
[SLOWDOWN_ENDS:A_D:D_D]
[FAREWELL_HELPER:A_D:D_D]
[ELECTION_RESULTS:A_D:D_D]
[SITE_PRESENT:A_D:D_D]
[CONSTRUCTION_SUSPENDED:A_D:D_D]
[LINKAGE_SUSPENDED:A_D:D_D]
[QUOTA_FILLED:A_D:D_D]
[JOB_OVERWRITTEN:A_D:D_D]
[NOTHING_TO_CATCH_IN_WATER:A_D:D_D]
[DEMAND_FORGOTTEN:A_D:D_D]
[NEW_DEMAND:A_D:D_D]
[NEW_MANDATE:A_D:D_D]
[PRICES_ALTERED:A_D:D_D]
[NAMED_RESIDENT_CREATURE:A_D:D_D]
[SOMEBODY_GROWS_UP:A_D:D_D]
[GUILD_REQUEST_TAKEN:A_D:D_D]
[GUILD_WAGES_CHANGED:A_D:D_D]
[NEW_WORK_MANDATE:A_D:D_D]
[CITIZEN_BECOMES_SOLDIER:A_D:D_D]
[CITIZEN_BECOMES_NONSOLDIER:A_D:D_D]
[PARTY_ORGANIZED:A_D:D_D]
[POSSESSED_TANTRUM:A_D:D_D]
[BUILDING_TOPPLED_BY_GHOST:A_D:D_D]
[MASTERFUL_IMPROVEMENT:A_D:D_D]
[MASTERPIECE_ENGRAVING:A_D:D_D]
[MARRIAGE:A_D:D_D]
[NO_MARRIAGE_CELEBRATION:A_D:D_D]
[CURIOUS_GUZZLER:A_D:D_D]
[WEATHER_BECOMES_CLEAR:A_D:D_D]
[WEATHER_BECOMES_SNOW:A_D:D_D]
[WEATHER_BECOMES_RAIN:A_D:D_D]
[SEASON_WET:A_D:D_D]
[SEASON_DRY:A_D:D_D]
[SEASON_SPRING:A_D:D_D]
[SEASON_SUMMER:A_D:D_D]
[SEASON_AUTUMN:A_D:D_D]
[SEASON_WINTER:A_D:D_D]
Post by: lethosor on December 01, 2014, 11:14:45 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 01, 2014, 11:23:34 pm
Post by: k33n on December 01, 2014, 11:44:50 pm
Post by: Putnam on December 01, 2014, 11:49:26 pm
Will we ever be able to enslave captured invaders/innocent elves, chain them up and make them do easy jobs?(e.g. Farming)
Dwarves consider slavery a capital offense; being a known slaver means you are executed.
True, but didn't the ethics recently become less rigid and variable by individual dwarf? You might conceivably engineer a situation where all of your dwarves are sociopathic slavers which would make the interaction valid if you're willing to split off from the rest of your civilization's ethics.
It is the sort of timeline question where I expect the official answer to be "Sounds good, no timeline," but I seem to recall Toady touching on dwarf mode Prisoners of War and the like as part of the Thief arc... in a DF Talk maybe? Dunno.
Values were added; ethics were not changed at all and are still perfectly rigid.
Post by: Weirdsound on December 02, 2014, 12:41:26 am
Will we ever be able to enslave captured invaders/innocent elves, chain them up and make them do easy jobs?(e.g. Farming)
If not, will we at leats be able to sell captured invaders to human caravans?
Quote
-Following debate on Dwarven ethics, seemingly concluding that slavery is a big no-no-
Are there any good suggestion threads on what can be done with prisoners? It feels a bit wrong that the dwarves have no standard official method of dealing with them. Sure, dropping them in magma or using them as training dummies is fun, but it would at least be nice if you had the option of ordering your hammerer to perform a proper execution of the POWs.
On a somewhat related note to the slave idea:
Is having Non-Dwarven members of your Civ move into your fortress something that might happen soon? I feel that as the worlds we gen up become more and more fleshed out and alive, it feels more and more contrived and artificial that player sites are the only ones where races other than than that of the controlling civilization cannot live. The upcoming Tavern Goals mention the ability to hire guests, which feels like it might be only a step or two away from having a handful of Elves and Humans living in your fortress for real....
And Since I am on the topic of taverns...
You mention that because the economy is not turned on, you will not be focusing on Tavern Revenue. Will there be some watered down system where the guests hand over a fixed amount coins for you to melt/hire other travelers with? Or will the sole reward of running the tavern at this point be flavorful - getting to play the games and meet the visitors?
Post by: mifki on December 02, 2014, 12:42:45 am
I'm still confused, are you guys saying that Dwarf Fortress uses OpenGL, or that SDL uses OpenGL?
Oh probably you're talking about the accelerated 2D API that's new (as I understand) in SDL2. Dwarf Fortress draws using OpenGL directly (when appropriate PRINT_MODE is set), which of course you can do with any SDL version.
Post by: Toady One on December 02, 2014, 01:12:57 am
Post by: smjjames on December 02, 2014, 08:10:35 am
(note on "empty announcement #" logs -- I would expect a few of these, since I had to hit a ton of announcements with the recent changes. They are as easy to fix as typos, but collecting the numbers somewhere would be helpful.)
Is the 'empty announcement 130' in relation to the sleeping army an intentional one for now because they section is incomplete?
Regarding the 'empty announcement 205', sure I can make a bug report for the empty announcement errors if that's what you mean. Can't supply a save because it's uncommon and unlike the 130 one, theres no consistent place that it happens. I have a suspicion though.
Post by: Knight Otu on December 02, 2014, 01:21:53 pm
Is having Non-Dwarven members of your Civ move into your fortress something that might happen soon? I feel that as the worlds we gen up become more and more fleshed out and alive, it feels more and more contrived and artificial that player sites are the only ones where races other than than that of the controlling civilization cannot live. The upcoming Tavern Goals mention the ability to hire guests, which feels like it might be only a step or two away from having a handful of Elves and Humans living in your fortress for real....The hiring guests section is having non-dwarves as members of your fortress, and Toady has said so previously in DFTalks, such as #20:
Quote
Threetoe: Next question is from Talvieno. He asks 'Will members of other civilizations eventually be able to join your civilization and live among your dwarves?'
Toady: I guess does the person mean other civilizations or other races? You can already have people in your civilization in worldgen that are humans or elves or even goblins that have joined up with the dwarf group and once the code supports it they will be able to move to your fortress. Right now there's just bugs where it treats them like pets sometimes and lots of strange stuff like that. Well, there's many problems. The official plan is to fix all of that up for the tavern and inn arc, when you can keep an inn, because there will be people living at your fortress on a semi-permanent basis.
Threetoe: Yeah, this is one of my favorite suggestions that someone had, to have dwarf mode inns.
Toady: Yeah, that's definitely going to be awesome. It'll be like Diner Dash, you'll be taking care of people trying to multi-task and that will eventually lead to people staying in your fortress longer term because we'll be working out the problems with multi-racial forts at that time and we'll have full integration not long after, I suspect.
You mention that because the economy is not turned on, you will not be focusing on Tavern Revenue. Will there be some watered down system where the guests hand over a fixed amount coins for you to melt/hire other travelers with? Or will the sole reward of running the tavern at this point be flavorful - getting to play the games and meet the visitors?The dev-page specifically mentions setting prices for the tavern releases, so we should get some revenue out of setting up a tavern. I imagine that note is more about that we won't get detailed numbers of what we're selling and how much we get from it, how many guests we had and so on.
Post by: Toady One on December 02, 2014, 01:39:55 pm
Quote from: smjjames
Is the 'empty announcement 130' in relation to the sleeping army an intentional one for now because they section is incomplete?
Regarding the 'empty announcement 205', sure I can make a bug report for the empty announcement errors if that's what you mean. Can't supply a save because it's uncommon and unlike the 130 one, theres no consistent place that it happens. I have a suspicion though.
These are likely newish bugs related to the announcement rewrite -- just having the number is enough to fix the error. They can be intermittent or otherwise hard to pin down, but that usually all comes from a simple typo around where the announcement is posted and hopefully I can just eyeball them all.
Post by: smjjames on December 02, 2014, 01:47:19 pm
Quote from: smjjamesIs the 'empty announcement 130' in relation to the sleeping army an intentional one for now because they section is incomplete?
Regarding the 'empty announcement 205', sure I can make a bug report for the empty announcement errors if that's what you mean. Can't supply a save because it's uncommon and unlike the 130 one, theres no consistent place that it happens. I have a suspicion though.
These are likely newish bugs related to the announcement rewrite -- just having the number is enough to fix the error. They can be intermittent or otherwise hard to pin down, but that usually all comes from a simple typo around where the announcement is posted and hopefully I can just eyeball them all.
Okay then. Edit: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8596
@smeeprocket: Beached whale probably, and the fisherdwarf just happened to get tasked to haul it.
Anyways, a sort of errorlog related query for you guys, I'm noticing that this save I have is generating lots of (20+) 'succession traveller out of bounds' errors while in the calendar screen. I haven't seen it do that before, and I'm thinking of making a bug report. However, that's the only thing to the bug, so I'm not sure if it's worthy of a bug report, then again, it could be indicative of some other problem. This is after my adventurer died, so it's not a fresh new game.
Not to mention that it's rather vague, like a 'theres this odd thing happening', and I have no idea how useful it would be to Toady One. It also happens when starting a new fort.
Edit: I think I'll just keep an eye on the save.
Just an update on this one. Apparently it's a symptom of this bug: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8582 . I can't continue that game because it always crashes.
Post by: dwarf_reform on December 03, 2014, 05:39:22 pm
Quote
Quote from: Ispil
How much do we have to donate to have you do a guitar piece per season?
It's hard to set aside enough time to feel like I can do a decent job with any of that these days.
.. Did Toady personally play the guitar piece thats packaged with the game? :O If so, amazing!! Also, sorry about my mangled use of the quote function..
Post by: Putnam on December 03, 2014, 05:48:17 pm
Post by: PigtailLlama on December 06, 2014, 09:39:39 pm
Post by: crapabear on December 06, 2014, 11:02:38 pm
Post by: Putnam on December 06, 2014, 11:05:50 pm
Do you think the tavern/inn release is going to end up requiring a full-scale resurrection of fortress economy? We'll be able to set the prices of drinks and rooms, but what use will we have for all the worthless coins(?) we collect from our guests?
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html#22.5
Threetoe: So the next question is from Matthew, and he asks, "Is there any chance of seeing a return of the dwarven economy any time soon?"
Toady: The things that we're working on with the start scenarios, as we may have mentioned before, are linked in to adding information about property and laws. That should get us positioned to really put that stuff back in. We had problems with not having the armies moving around made it impossible to do caravans properly. And we didn't really have any good information on who owned what and that kind of thing. So we've been working on it framework-wise all this time, and hopefully, once the start scenarios are complete, we'll be in a good position to make decisions about where we are with that. Whether it's going to be working straight in on trading stuff or continuing to come at it obliquely.
Threetoe: Like the thief arc, say?
Toady: Yeah, that kind of thing.
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html
Toady: So you're going to have the ability in your fortress to lay out several rooms. Rooms for people to sleep, meeting-hall-type places, some storerooms, that make up an inn or tavern, for people to come. They'll come at first just because they can. Your guests will be people like merchants, diplomats, adventurers, mercenaries, other travelers, and your dwarves will also be able to go. And the thing that you'll be able to do there... You'll be able to serve them drinks, for instance, you can sell them... We're not going for... We don't have the economy stuff yet, so we're not going for sort of full tycoon mode with spreadsheets...
Threetoe: Yeah it wouldn't exactly make any financial sense to do this, but it's just for fun.
Toady: Yeah, and it'll make more sense later, based on start scenarios and later when we do the economic work. Right now, we're just messing around. One of the big things that'll come out of this is... Remember back... When was that meetup? Was it like 2007/8?
Post by: smjjames on December 06, 2014, 11:55:34 pm
but what use will we have for all the worthless coins(?) we collect from our guests?
Melt them down maybe?
Post by: Untelligent on December 07, 2014, 02:20:18 am
Post by: Rockphed on December 07, 2014, 03:06:18 pm
Hire mercenaries, perhaps?
I suspect that when quest givers in adventure mode start being able to give monetary rewards, adventurers and fortresses will be able to hire mercenaries.
Post by: endlessblaze on December 07, 2014, 03:18:15 pm
you find some guys in a tent, assume there in an army.
they wont tell you who sent them, there civ, there group, there target, there reason. all they say is "im on an important mission" I want to claim a site for my civ and then eradicate the other civ, I want to know who sent that guy to my site(who failed to do much of anything) I want to interrogate him instead of talking to him before he gets to scare and stops yielding to run. ect,ect.
but I still want magic the most, magic, then inns and taverns,(and all related things like music and toys and multi-racial forts, we already have them in world gen we need them in player) I want to be able to enslave invaders (after moding the ethics to allow that and of course the !!fun!! from the uprisings)
Post by: smjjames on December 07, 2014, 05:14:08 pm
As for knowing which sites belong to who, you can just ask about the local ruler. You can get more info from legends viewer though.
I feel the same way about there not being enough information oftentimes and it's difficult to get info as to whats going on. Plus theres lots of things I'd like to ask but can't.
Post by: endlessblaze on December 07, 2014, 07:47:31 pm
assume I am part of a civ called
the gates of distruction
and we have 3 towns
town one has a site government by the name of fatefulwealth
town two has silentgleam
and my starting town called town 3 has bloodswords
now assume there is another civ called lostbones
there towns are ruled by the following site governments.
watercrushed
the seeds of birth
and
forestgleam
now when starting I have no idea what sites belong to what overall ruler only the local rulers
if i wanted to form a site government and over take the old one in THE OTHER CIV i would have know idea what towns were in my civ and what towns were the other civ, so im likely to attack my own in the in the confusion
THAT DRIVES ME INSANE!
Post by: Putnam on December 07, 2014, 07:52:26 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 07, 2014, 07:59:31 pm
Post by: endlessblaze on December 07, 2014, 08:04:02 pm
Post by: piratejoe on December 08, 2014, 04:43:14 pm
also when will kings and queens children become the king/queen and not a random dwarf/human/elf?
Post by: smjjames on December 08, 2014, 06:57:51 pm
will it be possible to create a civ or town/fortress with a adventurer in the future? say urist mc human gets a band of people and go's out far into the wilderness and him and his band of followers make a small hamlet that becomes a large town that is the capital of the new human civ with urist mc human as king
also when will kings and queens children become the king/queen and not a random dwarf/human/elf?
That would be a LONG ways off.
As for the kings and queens children becoming the next ruler, it's supposed to happen now. Although DF has no concept of a royal family, and so, it only looks at the next generation, not the grandchildren or whatever. Though in the case of the ruler not having any children or they're all dead, it goes to some random NPC.
The concept of royal family and better succession will be fleshed out.
Post by: Valtam on December 08, 2014, 08:13:14 pm
problem with legends is so much to sift through and not being able to use in while playing.
You can do either 2 things:
1. Familiarize yourself with Legends Mode, use filtering and stick to writing stuff down, studying your preferred civ's history and that of your neighbors. Right now (40.19) it's advisable to spawn tiny worlds, and as you play more and more with that world, you begin to relate with names and regions, however random they might appear at first. In these primary stages of development, a lot of DF systems harken back to a pen-and-paper era, and that (in my opinion) creates a special bond with that world.
2. Use Legends Viewer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=72702.0) and congratulate its developers.
Amended that second point. Thanks, smjjames.
Post by: smjjames on December 08, 2014, 08:21:30 pm
problem with legends is so much to sift through and not being able to use in while playing.
You can do either 2 things:
1. Familiarize yourself with Legends Mode, use filtering and stick to writing stuff down, studying your preferred civ's history and that of your neighbors. Right now (40.19) it's advisable to spawn tiny worlds, and as you play more and more with that world, you begin to relate with names and regions, however random they might appear at first. In these primary stages of development, a lot of DF systems harken back to a pen-and-paper era, and that (in my opinion) creates a special bond with that world.
2. Wait for Legends Viewer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=72702.0) to get updated.
Uh, Legends Viewer works with 40.19....... If you're encountering problems, then report on that thread.
Post by: Dirst on December 09, 2014, 07:50:31 am
I suspect that the 'I'm on an important mission' is a placeholder. Sure there will be a couple times when they don't want to tell you, but it's used way too often IMO.Getting software to explain why it is doing something is a surprisingly difficult problem in AI. When an NPC is engaged in a subtask, it may not be aware of its overall goal until it pops the subtask off of the stack.
Post by: Footkerchief on December 09, 2014, 10:43:36 am
will it be possible to create a civ or town/fortress with a adventurer in the future? say urist mc human gets a band of people and go's out far into the wilderness and him and his band of followers make a small hamlet that becomes a large town that is the capital of the new human civ with urist mc human as king
Yes, there's a lot of stuff related to this on the dev page:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Basic Adventure Mode Skills
Some survival skills
Ability to butcher corpses with an appropriate tool
Ability to make clothing and some other objects from hides
Ability to obtain a sharp (or at least non-smooth) edge on a rock
Extend adv mode starvation/dehydration times to appropriate number of days
Wood use
Ground debris/sticks/underbrush
Ability to chop down tree using appropriate tool
Ability to make simple wooden weapons and ammunition
Ability to use logs to make constructions
Site recognition for saving adventurer-made sites (will require entity pops first, see below)
Ability to name site
Digging and stone constructions
Ability to dig out soil tiles
Buried boulders in some soils
Ability to pull up surface boulders
Ability to make rough stone constructions
[...]
Entity populations
Track larger entity populations during world generation
Update site storage to account for a variety of sprawl
Growing crops
Ability to till tile (faster with tool)
Ability to plant seeds
Ability to pass time quickly (unlike current sleep command)
Ability to harvest plants
Ability to make a quern from a boulder
Ability to grind grindable plants (designating any proper container for products)
Ability to cook and appropriate tools for this
Raising livestock
Farms associated to entity population sprawl
Ability to buy a livestock animal and lead it around
Keep track of your animals as with hunted animals so they are not easily and permanently lost
Ability to build fences (more than one fence tile per tree used, as opposed to wall)
Ability to perform decisive attacks on unsuspecting or heavily injured opponent (a cow being slaughtered, for instance)
Tracking livestock breeding/pregnancy information
Grazing and drinking for livestock
Eggs, chickens and associated objects
Post by: thedrelle on December 09, 2014, 12:56:51 pm
We'll be able to set the prices of drinks and rooms, but what use will we have for all the worthless coins(?) we collect from our guests?
they could be used to pay the dwarves that work there, cleaning up and serving visitors, purchasing foodstuffs and supplies from the fortress or traveling merchants, they will pay a tax towards the fortress, and the rest is profit that goes to the owning entity, either it's the fortress or a dwarf that claimed it like any other room ( i would love to see that, shop and inns and stuff that are claimed by a dwarf, that dwarf becomes the keeper, and only takes jobs related to that place).
Post by: Shashu on December 09, 2014, 08:23:19 pm
Post by: Toady One on December 09, 2014, 09:02:10 pm
Post by: Putnam on December 09, 2014, 09:04:05 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 09, 2014, 09:43:58 pm
Just watching dwarves make poor decisions repeatedly as I fix their little minds...
You should post some of the funny stuff that you see. :)
Also, while you're at this whole thing, maybe look into http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6185 ? Then again, you're doing a total (or near total) priority rewrite.
Post by: endlessblaze on December 09, 2014, 09:48:51 pm
Post by: Rockphed on December 09, 2014, 11:30:57 pm
Actually, that sounds amusing. *Adopts plaintive gesture* "Oh Great Toad, grace us with knowledge of the poor decisions made by thine dwarves!"
Post by: smjjames on December 09, 2014, 11:50:37 pm
Post by: Toady One on December 10, 2014, 12:02:55 am
Post by: smjjames on December 10, 2014, 12:08:02 am
I also see lots of potential for bugs elsewhere in the system with other jobs, and maybe some confusion initially.
Post by: Toady One on December 10, 2014, 12:11:27 am
Post by: Mel_Vixen on December 10, 2014, 12:45:43 am
I did softwaretesting for a time (even got an ISTQB cert - not that it was worth anything), it might help if you break down the decission path and setup up your testscenario accordingly (i am sure you can set/lock/look up the dwarves mind and states already?) say if a dorf should mine if its hunger < 25 (or whatever) you look what happens if you lock the hunger at the boundary cases (24 & 25). If you combine the decisions the right way even a complex piece of software can (with luck) become maybe a half dozen testcases to cover all decisions.
Back in the day i worked for a big german carcompany (ok they did outsource) and we had some nightmarish software we had to test based on the written description - being for companies dealerships the software was as nightmarish as an complex AI.
edit: sorry if you know/have that stuff already dont want to sound like a jerk, just trying to be helpful
Post by: Rockphed on December 10, 2014, 05:39:49 am
it's 3 already? I should eat... wait, ...
Toady, have you been neglecting to eat properly? Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Post by: Scoops Novel on December 10, 2014, 08:51:11 am
Just watching dwarves make poor decisions repeatedly as I fix their little minds...
You should post some of the funny stuff that you see. :)
Sidles over
https://twitter.com/dwarfort_txt
Post by: LordBaal on December 10, 2014, 09:15:46 am
Post by: Dirst on December 10, 2014, 09:24:45 am
Post by: Footkerchief on December 10, 2014, 11:02:05 am
Oh great Toady, binarysmith of wonders! I must ask How hard would it be, or do you think it would be, and/or when do you see (if at all) implementing a better control over stocks in the game trough the manager. That's it, not only making orders but also managing that certain things are always in stock.
This sounds like the "standing production orders" feature that's been widely suggested, and it's on the dev page:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Standing Production Orders
Production triggers for new work orders
Being able to link work orders and triggers to buildings
Post by: Rose on December 10, 2014, 11:04:24 am
Post by: monk12 on December 10, 2014, 11:43:59 am
Yeah, adding a gearbox between jobs and dwarves allows all kinds of cool stuff to happen, but it'll have potential to just shoot gears all over the place, especially at first, and sporadically forevermore.
There's something beautiful about the phrase "sporadically forevermore."
Post by: smjjames on December 10, 2014, 11:57:13 am
In the meantime, there's a DFHack utility that lets you keep a minimum of X amount of items y in your fortress, and people will make more once the amount goes below that number.
It would be cool if that were implemented, would reduce some of the micromanagement and allow you to pay attention to other things more.
Post by: thedrelle on December 10, 2014, 01:00:25 pm
Oh great Toady, binarysmith of wonders! I must ask How hard would it be, or do you think it would be, and/or when do you see (if at all) implementing a better control over stocks in the game trough the manager. That's it, not only making orders but also managing that certain things are always in stock.
^ this. so very much this!
Post by: Sizik on December 10, 2014, 04:59:18 pm
Post by: Putnam on December 10, 2014, 04:59:59 pm
Do dwarves (in Fortress mode) ever change their gait?
Yes. Whenever they flee, they run or sprint. You can tell because they start moving faster than normal.
Post by: endlessblaze on December 10, 2014, 05:48:16 pm
will this make dwarfs stop mineing pits in such a way they fall in and die? I have never even made an effective pit trap thanks to this little quirk,
Post by: smjjames on December 10, 2014, 06:06:49 pm
12/06/2014Toady One It's all proceeding along. There are lots of special cases that were optimized in this way or that way over the years that I don't want to make any worse in the new system. When I got to rescheduling mining designations, I figured I wouldn't burn time on an additional rewrite, so I'm going to go ahead with the numeric digging prioritization system as well. There'll probably be 7 levels and a marker designation to start.
will this make dwarfs stop mineing pits in such a way they fall in and die? I have never even made an effective pit trap thanks to this little quirk,
That has nothing to do with job priorities though. Might help somewhat.
Post by: Dirst on December 10, 2014, 06:23:26 pm
I though each designated tile was basically its own job. That way a team of three miners can efficiently mine out half of five different rooms then go on break in unison.12/06/2014Toady One It's all proceeding along. There are lots of special cases that were optimized in this way or that way over the years that I don't want to make any worse in the new system. When I got to rescheduling mining designations, I figured I wouldn't burn time on an additional rewrite, so I'm going to go ahead with the numeric digging prioritization system as well. There'll probably be 7 levels and a marker designation to start.
will this make dwarfs stop mineing pits in such a way they fall in and die? I have never even made an effective pit trap thanks to this little quirk,
That has nothing to do with job priorities though. Might help somewhat.
Post by: Sergarr on December 10, 2014, 06:49:10 pm
That combined with agility increase of vampires makes them almost impossible to catch without abusing stealth.Do dwarves (in Fortress mode) ever change their gait?
Yes. Whenever they flee, they run or sprint. You can tell because they start moving faster than normal.
Post by: smjjames on December 10, 2014, 07:56:50 pm
I though each designated tile was basically its own job. That way a team of three miners can efficiently mine out half of five different rooms then go on break in unison.12/06/2014Toady One It's all proceeding along. There are lots of special cases that were optimized in this way or that way over the years that I don't want to make any worse in the new system. When I got to rescheduling mining designations, I figured I wouldn't burn time on an additional rewrite, so I'm going to go ahead with the numeric digging prioritization system as well. There'll probably be 7 levels and a marker designation to start.
will this make dwarfs stop mineing pits in such a way they fall in and die? I have never even made an effective pit trap thanks to this little quirk,
That has nothing to do with job priorities though. Might help somewhat.
We'll just have to see what effect the job priority rewrite has on this. The problem is not that they channel next to each other, it's that they'll stand on a tile that's in the proccess of being channeled.
Post by: Dirst on December 10, 2014, 08:04:09 pm
We'll just have to see what effect the job priority rewrite has on this. The problem is not that they channel next to each other, it's that they'll stand on a tile that's in the proccess of being channeled.Basically this
(https://ellenlandreth.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/cutting-off-branch.jpg)
but with a beard.
Post by: LordBaal on December 10, 2014, 08:47:48 pm
Post by: Lemunde on December 10, 2014, 10:48:45 pm
It has just been stuff like... why isn't he mining... why isn't he mining... oh there he goes... why did he leave those two squares? I have no idea (5 tests and changes later)... didn't leave any this time... try one more time... left two squares... oh I think I have it... now he isn't mining again... why did you mine there instead of there? Oh < is not >... okay it looks like it works now... but the marker designation looks bad... there now it is better... it's 3 already? I should eat... wait, where did that designation go? it disappeared... I have to fix that first... okay it works now... let me try to toggle the markers... why don't they mine... he isn't mining... oh, whoops... okay... he mined half... why did he mine half? oh it was the hauling jobs clearing wrong... okay he mined out the rooms... now let's see if smoothing works...
I have had so many days like this. If you've ever tried to program your own game or application you eventually come across this problem that's so aggravating that you forget to eat and completely lose track of time.
Post by: flabort on December 10, 2014, 11:54:43 pm
I have had so many days like this. If you've ever tried to program your own game or application you eventually come across this problem that's so aggravating that you forget to eat and completely lose track of time.It's not just programing. I've had this happen when drawing, when doing physics tests, when doing chemistry puzzles, etc. All the arts and sciences, if they present something challenging/frustrating enough, can cause you to lose time. Er... lose track of time. Even READING can do it.
I... don't eat often when left to my own devices.
But programing is, of course, especially well suited for this kind of situation.
Post by: Inarius on December 11, 2014, 02:53:13 am
Quote
I have had so many days like this. If you've ever tried to program your own game or application you eventually come across this problem that's so aggravating that you forget to eat and completely lose track of time.
That is so true.
Post by: MrWiggles on December 11, 2014, 05:06:44 am
I though each designated tile was basically its own job. That way a team of three miners can efficiently mine out half of five different rooms then go on break in unison.12/06/2014Toady One It's all proceeding along. There are lots of special cases that were optimized in this way or that way over the years that I don't want to make any worse in the new system. When I got to rescheduling mining designations, I figured I wouldn't burn time on an additional rewrite, so I'm going to go ahead with the numeric digging prioritization system as well. There'll probably be 7 levels and a marker designation to start.That has nothing to do with job priorities though. Might help somewhat.
will this make dwarfs stop mineing pits in such a way they fall in and die? I have never even made an effective pit trap thanks to this little quirk,
They are, but the issue isn't with job designation or path finding. The issue is the dorfs understanding context, and understanding the future of their actions.
The dorfs right now, cannot foresee that digging away A will mean they'll fall to their doom. And can be a quite a hard problem to solve. I would imagine that dorfs still dig the top left corner (and I think lowest) portion first, after they've respected this new designation system.
Post by: LordBaal on December 11, 2014, 07:13:41 am
From what I gather dwarven logic will be the same. It's just that YOU (the player) will be able to assign priorities to the designations so you can control what is done first after moving to the next layer of work and so on. This way if you order channeling trough 3 levels you put the higher priority on the first one, the second most higher to the second one and the third to the third one, so they don't channel the second floor first, then the third and then the first falling two levels. Also it would seem that until ALL work from one priority is done the work on anything of the following priority will be on hold.
In shot, you are in charge of providing the dwarves as safe work environment... poor dwarves.
Post by: Kumis on December 11, 2014, 10:58:28 am
Are there plans to integrate smoothing/fortification carving/engraving into this in any way? That is will we now be able to say, "Priority 1 dig this bit, priority 2 smooth this bit, priority 3 carve fortifications here."? That is, designations overlapping in space (but not in phases/time).
Post by: smjjames on December 11, 2014, 11:39:19 am
Post by: Knight Otu on December 11, 2014, 11:56:51 am
Um, the next version with the job priorities will be save compatible with 40.19, right?I don't see why it wouldn't be. Right now, it seems to me that you'd just need to convert designations into priority 1 designations for compatibility, populate whatever mechanism holds the "help wanted ads" with the unassigned jobs, and let already assigned jobs run their course. I think save breaking stuff will happen in the three other sections, but job priorities will likely be fine.
Post by: Footkerchief on December 11, 2014, 06:35:02 pm
Post by: Uronym on December 11, 2014, 09:33:18 pm
I'm surprised that vein mining is getting implemented before multi-Z-level deposits -- seems like it'll necessitate a rewrite.
Toady is probably going to do a geology rewrite in the future; he probably wants it to be more robust for when he starts doing ravines, canyons, steeper mountains, and other geological features that he talked about a lot in recent DF Talks, but that's a very deep rabbit hole. Assuming he made these tiered designations work in the third dimension, he (probably) won't need to rewrite it when he gets to the better mineral veins in the near future.
GavJ has these really cool pictures of better three-dimensional geology... (http://cauliflowerlabs.blogspot.com/2014/09/geovox-geology-simulator-for-game-worlds.html)
Post by: smjjames on December 12, 2014, 12:45:08 am
I'm surprised that vein mining is getting implemented before multi-Z-level deposits -- seems like it'll necessitate a rewrite.
Actually, it could just be something like the DFhack designation tool where you can designate a whole vein for mining. Granted it designates the WHOLE thing, even parts you don't see. So, it could just be a designation that says 'mine out this vein'.
If anything, the only rewrite would have to do with the pathing and digging out accross z levels.
Post by: MrWiggles on December 12, 2014, 07:34:52 am
I'm surprised that vein mining is getting implemented before multi-Z-level deposits -- seems like it'll necessitate a rewrite.
Actually, it could just be something like the DFhack designation tool where you can designate a whole vein for mining. Granted it designates the WHOLE thing, even parts you don't see. So, it could just be a designation that says 'mine out this vein'.
If anything, the only rewrite would have to do with the pathing and digging out accross z levels.
I think Fookercheif is talking about having veins go across multiple z levels.
Post by: Vattic on December 12, 2014, 01:51:53 pm
I know I heard mention of this before in DFTalk or one of these threads, but searching has failed me.
Post by: Uronym on December 12, 2014, 03:17:56 pm
Why is there a 2x2 minimum embark size limit?
I know I heard mention of this before in DFTalk or one of these threads, but searching has failed me.
I am very interested in this too!
Post by: Dirst on December 12, 2014, 03:49:51 pm
It could also be as simple as "dig out this tile and designate any adjacent tiles of the same material with this same include-adjacent style of designation."I'm surprised that vein mining is getting implemented before multi-Z-level deposits -- seems like it'll necessitate a rewrite.
Actually, it could just be something like the DFhack designation tool where you can designate a whole vein for mining. Granted it designates the WHOLE thing, even parts you don't see. So, it could just be a designation that says 'mine out this vein'.
If anything, the only rewrite would have to do with the pathing and digging out accross z levels.
Just be careful with layer stones!
Post by: Zarathustra30 on December 12, 2014, 11:46:46 pm
It could also be as simple as "dig out this tile and designate any adjacent tiles of the same material with this same include-adjacent style of designation."I'm surprised that vein mining is getting implemented before multi-Z-level deposits -- seems like it'll necessitate a rewrite.
Actually, it could just be something like the DFhack designation tool where you can designate a whole vein for mining. Granted it designates the WHOLE thing, even parts you don't see. So, it could just be a designation that says 'mine out this vein'.
If anything, the only rewrite would have to do with the pathing and digging out accross z levels.
Just be careful with layer stones!
I can see it now: "Dig out this chunk of diorite." "The entire cavern has collapsed!"
Post by: hermes on December 14, 2014, 11:40:41 am
Post by: smjjames on December 14, 2014, 12:58:11 pm
Maybe I'll just have to force myself to get into it, I dunno, lol.
Or maybe I'm just waiting for this job priority rewrite.
No pressure on you though Toady One.
Post by: hermes on December 15, 2014, 02:25:12 am
When adding new features/screens to the game, control wise do you have a scheme you are following that will be consistent with the future rewrite, or are the controls decided upon without an eye to the future because you know the UI rewrite is coming?
Maybe this was asked before or maybe it's not clear... It's just that even after playing for years the other night I hit a wall with the
Post by: Andreus on December 15, 2014, 06:17:32 am
Post by: MrWiggles on December 15, 2014, 06:24:03 am
Post by: palu on December 15, 2014, 11:26:29 am
Post by: Inarius on December 15, 2014, 11:48:30 am
Post by: LordBaal on December 15, 2014, 12:43:41 pm
Post by: Lord_lemonpie on December 15, 2014, 02:51:05 pm
Nevermind, hemp is already in the game, sorry for my ignorance D;
Post by: MrWiggles on December 15, 2014, 05:26:25 pm
This is also a suggestion.Will you add Hemp/Cannabis as a crop from which you can make cloth and oil (which you also can in real life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp)) in patch 4.20?
Nevermind, hemp is already in the game, sorry for my ignorance D;
Post by: Putnam on December 15, 2014, 05:39:09 pm
Also, maybe 0.41.01? But I doubt that. I mean, I'm not saying it's not, but 0.40.20 seems more likely.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on December 15, 2014, 07:13:53 pm
Post by: flabort on December 15, 2014, 07:19:02 pm
Post by: wobbly on December 16, 2014, 07:31:35 am
For example at the moment I have 2 haulers in a military squad who are not set to train & yet they simply ignore all hauling jobs in favour of indivual combat drill/resting.
Post by: Kumis on December 16, 2014, 08:30:53 am
How does the new system treat military dwarves?
For example at the moment I have 2 haulers in a military squad who are not set to train & yet they simply ignore all hauling jobs in favour of indivual combat drill/resting.
I've noticed this in prior iterations of the game. I'm not aware if there was ever a priority split between Hauling and Individual Drill, but I mostly saw my inactive Military-cum-Haulers (stop snickering) mostly engaging in Individual Drill. The trick is to not assign them any barracks, at least during their inactive months. This must be done manually I'm afraid.
Edit: or are you asking if there'll be any change to this system? In which case please ignore!
Post by: wobbly on December 16, 2014, 08:51:55 am
Post by: PigtailLlama on December 16, 2014, 06:02:32 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 16, 2014, 06:11:58 pm
Haulers carry (heavy) full bin to pickup single item (lighter) (Toady One) - resolved. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5964)
and
Conflict between hauling jobs (i.e. filling containers) and other jobs using items in those containers (Toady One) - resolved. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5992)
Sounds like he found a way to fix some of the inefficiencies with the current hauling system.
Post by: malvado on December 16, 2014, 08:14:34 pm
*Creatures singing at the Inns or at other social events?
*Creatures getting overly drunk and behaving like drunk people do?
Anyone know what the status on invaders use of siege engines is? Catapults and other wall breaking monstrosities?
Post by: Putnam on December 16, 2014, 08:19:10 pm
So right now I'm seeing that Inn's are probably going to be implemented pretty soon , did Toady say if he would implement / work on :
*Creatures singing at the Inns or at other social events?
*Creatures getting overly drunk and behaving like drunk people do?
Anyone know what the status on invaders use of siege engines is? Catapults and other wall breaking monstrosities?
http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html
Post by: Thief^ on December 17, 2014, 05:32:57 am
Guess what bugs have been fixed (or at least checked off) for the next release? :D
Haulers carry (heavy) full bin to pickup single item (lighter) (Toady One) - resolved. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5964)
and
Conflict between hauling jobs (i.e. filling containers) and other jobs using items in those containers (Toady One) - resolved. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5992)
Sounds like he found a way to fix some of the inefficiencies with the current hauling system.
Yeeaaaaah!
Post by: lethosor on December 17, 2014, 03:06:29 pm
Also, http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.htmlSo right now I'm seeing that Inn's are probably going to be implemented pretty soon , did Toady say if he would implement / work on :
*Creatures singing at the Inns or at other social events?
*Creatures getting overly drunk and behaving like drunk people do?
Anyone know what the status on invaders use of siege engines is? Catapults and other wall breaking monstrosities?
http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html
Post by: Untelligent on December 17, 2014, 07:28:40 pm
Post by: Putnam on December 17, 2014, 07:29:35 pm
Post by: Zarathustra30 on December 17, 2014, 07:51:47 pm
But I just generated a 1050 year world...
Post by: Putnam on December 17, 2014, 09:15:55 pm
But I just generated a 1050 year world...
It'll probably be save compatible.
Post by: endlessblaze on December 17, 2014, 09:30:45 pm
IM FEALING EVIL
Somewhat pointless right now as this update does not seem to affect evil potential.... Maybe with the hauling a job updates I will be able to build death traps better.....I have never been able to make them work right aside from weapon traps.....I want to make a death pit but my miners tend to kill themselves.
Post by: smjjames on December 17, 2014, 11:51:25 pm
Wallbuilding (and roadmaking) uses a seperate, skill-less labor in the next update! Now I won't need eighty masons running around!
And I won't have to suspend masonry activities while I'm doing wall building. I can just have my masons churn out blocks while the plebs (haulers and stuff) go about building the walls. I assume floors are included in this, right?
Doesn't seem like theres much left to add for job priority rewrite. Plus the significant hauling overhaul on the side.
Post by: Uronym on December 18, 2014, 07:29:17 am
hauling overhaul
Haha. Ha.
Sounds like there will be a lot less micromanaging in the new version. If masons/carpenters/whatever aren't necessary to build things, then we can indeed just have random people who aren't busy doing them rather than temporarily suspending all mason/carpenter/whatever jobs, enabling the labor on everyone, then disabling it on non-mason/carpenter/whatever dwarves when finished. Similarly, we won't have to constantly re-designate ore or stone for the miners to mine; we could simply tell them to mine the entire cluster/vein without tedious supervision. With any luck we won't have to un-designate all ore-mining jobs when we, say, want more rooms dug out; I assume we can just designate a higher-priority level to important jobs. Then, the miners will just do the high priority job and go back to work on the magnetite cluster afterward. I hope.
This all sounds much less tedious and unpleasant!
Post by: Ribs on December 18, 2014, 07:42:54 am
This may have been the smoothest development cycle I've ever seen from Toady. Maybe it's because the features added this time were very technical, giving no room for creative feature creeping. I wonder if the next one (taverns and inns) will go as smoothly.
But either way, thank you for your hard work guys! Here's a couple of questions, though:
Will wall/road building jobs ever go back to having skills associatted with them (that actually influence in the quality/ speed of the job)? I mean, it does make sense to have your guys need some skill in masonry if they want to build a stone wall... it's not exactly unskilled labor like hauling.
Actually, considering that even jobs like pump operating have a skill associated with them, will hauling jobs ever get a skill?
Post by: LordBaal on December 18, 2014, 08:10:12 am
Now only rest to have the manager keeping stocks of certain things at certain levels and being able to set the material employed for furniture/crafts (ie specific woods or stones) directly on the workshops without needing stockpile tricks! That would make life far more easier to a lot of us.
Toady, this changes with the hauling and all that sounds like something serious, will it be savegame compatible? I'm kind of in the middle of a huge fort (450+ seats dining room with granite pillars) but also would love to have the new features you have implemeted.
Will wall/road building jobs ever go back to having skills associatted with them (that actually influence in the quality/ speed of the job)? I mean, it does make sense to have your guys need some skill in masonry if they want to build a stone wall... it's not exactly unskilled labor like hauling.
My guess is that masonry is still influential for the speed of everything and the quality when applicable (roads for example), only that just as hauling, now its a separated labor masonry for crafting things as furniture and for building things like walls, that's it, if you want to only your masons to build things then disable "build constructions" from everyone else. On the contrary if you don't want your legendary mason to be bothered building a wall then you disable the labor for him and let anyone else do it.
That way you get to decide who is actually going to be constructing stuff. Just like deconstruction works right now, with the only difference being that the masonry skill might still be important to the speed/quality of the job.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on December 18, 2014, 08:39:45 am
Toady, are building jobs like walls and floors now decoupled from the workshop jobs that used the same materials? Like, will I still need to have my manager restrict the masonry workshops so that all my wall-building grunts don't also build my chairs and tables, or is that gone?
Never mind- all power to the Toad!
Post by: reality.auditor on December 18, 2014, 01:29:16 pm
Post by: endlessblaze on December 18, 2014, 04:00:17 pm
Post by: Uronym on December 18, 2014, 04:18:03 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on December 18, 2014, 04:40:16 pm
like the bug were if you give a miner in the military a pick he will go put his up and fight with his fist or get another that you did not assign.....PLEASE FIX THAT! we need to have multipurpose miners without the hassle
Here's the bug report. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1451) It would be helpful to upload recent-version saves to DFFD (http://dffd.wimbli.com/) and the post the link at the report.
Post by: Naryar on December 18, 2014, 07:29:11 pm
Also there are a few military issues that need to be solved. Lack of sieges maybe, kill/move orders not working certainly. It's making fort mode unfairly and excessively FUN.
Post by: CaptainArchmage on December 18, 2014, 07:41:23 pm
Post by: Zarathustra30 on December 19, 2014, 12:41:41 am
so does anyone know what's next, after 0.40.20 ? Curious.
Also there are a few military issues that need to be solved. Lack of sieges maybe, kill/move orders not working certainly. It's making fort mode unfairly and excessively FUN.
TAVERNS!!!
Post by: Putnam on December 19, 2014, 12:42:47 am
Anyway,
http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Read that. It's the development roadmap for the near-future.
Post by: hermes on December 19, 2014, 01:16:29 am
1) It crashed after about a minute, only thing I had done is initiate an auto-mine and then watch that happen. Guess I'll need to experiment a bit to see if it is reproducible.
2) For the new job system to work properly, should we be turning on all jobs for pretty much all dwarves?
Post by: Zarathustra30 on December 19, 2014, 01:25:18 am
1) It crashed after about a minute, only thing I had done is initiate an auto-mine and then watch that happen. Guess I'll need to experiment a bit to see if it is reproducible.
Check your gamelog.txt. It may be bug 8633 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8633).
Post by: hermes on December 19, 2014, 01:42:20 am
Post by: wobbly on December 19, 2014, 04:19:12 am
Post by: Mr S on December 19, 2014, 07:32:18 am
In addition, unless I've misunderstood, Toady has said that there will be an initial selection of start scenarios to pursue when it's released, with the possibility of further future releases expanding the possible scenario types. That will depend on how both the story line and technical mechanics of those work.
As usual, Sounds Good, No Timeline.
Post by: LordBaal on December 19, 2014, 07:53:26 am
As for the taverns and the "set prices", does that means economy will be coming back? At least partially? And this opens up a lot of interesting options. Hiring visitors could mean you could privatize your military (mercenaries) or even industries (you hire lumberjacks, or miners, or crafters)?
Post by: Knight Otu on December 19, 2014, 08:14:39 am
Well, in real life a hell of a lot of towns started as/from military outpost, and if western movies are to be believed, from taverns too.The economy will, at least most likely, not return yet:
As for the taverns and the "set prices", does that means economy will be coming back? At least partially? And this opens up a lot of interesting options. Hiring visitors could mean you could privatize your military (mercenaries) or even industries (you hire lumberjacks, or miners, or crafters)?
Quote from: Dev page
Without more economic activity, dealing with fortress mode tavern revenue and the supply of adventure mode taverns isn't the focus at this point.
Quote from: DF Talk 22
Threetoe: So the next question is from Matthew, and he asks, "Is there any chance of seeing a return of the dwarven economy any time soon?"
Toady: The things that we're working on with the start scenarios, as we may have mentioned before, are linked in to adding information about property and laws. That should get us positioned to really put that stuff back in. We had problems with not having the armies moving around made it impossible to do caravans properly. And we didn't really have any good information on who owned what and that kind of thing. So we've been working on it framework-wise all this time, and hopefully, once the start scenarios are complete, we'll be in a good position to make decisions about where we are with that. Whether it's going to be working straight in on trading stuff or continuing to come at it obliquely.
Post by: smjjames on December 19, 2014, 11:34:56 am
As a side question, will the residential areas of goblin sites ever have furniture or will they always be spartan? I imagine that the one and two tile rooms would only have a bed and maybe a chest or cabinet, while larger chambers will have more furniture.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on December 19, 2014, 12:37:01 pm
Post by: smeeprocket on December 19, 2014, 04:13:01 pm
Would it be possible to get more control over gender in the future? As well as the pronouns used themselves? I don't expect trans dwarves in the vanilla game, but being able to have enough control to mod it in thoroughly would be really nice. Being able to designate pronouns for a caste would be pretty much solve the problem, I think.
Post by: smjjames on December 19, 2014, 04:19:49 pm
Post by: Dirst on December 19, 2014, 04:24:08 pm
At the risk of causing arguments and flaming, with the hope that I can just ask the question and that will not happen...Suggestions belong in the suggestions forum, but that said I'd really like to have control over whether a genderless caste is known as "he" or "she" or "it" or "they".
@smjjames, imagine you added a genderless "golem" caste to your Dwarves. Right now, it would be referred to as a "she" consistent with how ant men castes are named. smeeprocket's idea would let you pick how the game refers to golems.
Post by: smeeprocket on December 19, 2014, 04:29:50 pm
You should be able to name the castes already? Unless I'm missing what you mean by being able to designate a pronoun.
edit: tbh I'm kind of scared to start a new suggestion topic on its own.
I just wanted to add a quick note that having control over pronouns would be really nice.
Post by: smjjames on December 19, 2014, 04:32:27 pm
Post by: smeeprocket on December 19, 2014, 04:36:32 pm
Dirst explained it though, so it's ok smeeprocket.
edited my note as his is less likely to cause arguments.
Post by: Rockphed on December 20, 2014, 06:46:54 am
You should be able to name the castes already? Unless I'm missing what you mean by being able to designate a pronoun.
edit: tbh I'm kind of scared to start a new suggestion topic on its own.
I just wanted to add a quick note that having control over pronouns would be really nice.
Take it to the suggestions forum. If we let you add quick notes that aren't related to current development, which caste pronouns aren't, then before long this thread will be full of quick notes, and then full on suggestions. Toady typically doesn't even answer sugquestions anyway. He does look at the suggestion forum on a regular basis. Now go make your suggestions thread of the exact post you posted here.
Post by: Vattic on December 20, 2014, 12:38:11 pm
He does look at the suggestion forum on a regular basis. Now go make your suggestions thread of the exact post you posted here.
I know there was a big gap where he didn't and then recently he caught up, but I didn't know he was following regularly again.
Now that you've caught up with the suggestions forum do you mean to read it more regularly again?
Post by: Knight Otu on December 20, 2014, 03:05:52 pm
That's the plan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=100851.msg5470695#msg5470695), at least.He does look at the suggestion forum on a regular basis. Now go make your suggestions thread of the exact post you posted here.
I know there was a big gap where he didn't and then recently he caught up, but I didn't know he was following regularly again.
Now that you've caught up with the suggestions forum do you mean to read it more regularly again?
Quote
Quote from: VatticDo you plan to try and keep up with the suggestions board now you've cleared the backlog?Yeah, it would be a shame to fall back again. It's on my daily checklist, anyway.
Post by: Vattic on December 20, 2014, 08:08:00 pm
Post by: Uronym on December 20, 2014, 11:34:17 pm
I heard there was a job available to a fool. See above for my resume.
So you wanna take the new job in my fort for a "paramedic trainer"?
Don't worry, there is excellent pay; you get all the food and drink you want for as long as you live! (which may be just a little shorter than normal)
Post by: Andreus on December 21, 2014, 06:16:02 am
1. So I've noticed at the moment that in a lot of situations, worldgen often creates human societies which are both agglomerations of humans and a large number of members of other species such as animal men, and also tend to be ruled by a long succession of vampires, sometimes not even of human origin. Will human societies tend to stay more human in the future?
1a. Will there be a raws option to have entities reject supernatural beings as members and/or rulers?
2. In relation to the above, are we going to see more granularity in how civilizations treat members of their society that aren't the primary race - second class citizens, pariahs, slaves, or exiling them completely? Will these be options in the raws? (I know we technically have slaves right now, but they have this odd tendency to not stay slaves after a couple of generations)
3. On the subject of naming conventions - creatures of all races save kobolds generally tend to follow the same naming convention - Noun Noun-Noun (the Adjective Nouns of Nouning) - with no respect to things like familial surnames. There are several questions related to this:
3a. Are we eventually going to see this replaced by other naming conventions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131682)?
3b. Will there eventually be word lists which are exclusively used as first names?
3c. Will we start seeing commoner dwarves and humans named after their profession - e.g. Urist Smith, Urist Fisher, Urist Weaver, etc?
3d. Will we start seeing entities forming around a family name - e.g. great houses, clans, trade families?
4. Are intelligent megabeasts - I'm mainly thinking dragons here - going to have more options for dealing with them in the future? Are we, for example, going to be able to make an offering of gold, gems or trinkets to a dragon to appease it? I'll stop short of asking whether we can make virgin sacrifices every year to keep forgotten beasts away.
5. Will there be an option to make gods of an entity unable to deliver curses?
6. In terms of gods in general, it seems that gods are currently specific to their respective entities. Are we eventually going to see seperate cultures of the same race having overlap in their pantheons? Will we get a raws option to encourage this happening?
7. A complex question here. We currently have magical power in the form of learning the secrets of life and death, thus gaining immortality and the power to raise zombies. Are we eventually going to get more forms of magic, and would it be possible to have an entity position dedicated to the research and acquisition of magical power, and the education of those who have it?
I think I have more questions but those are all the ones I can think of, and there's already seven, so I'll leave it at that for now.
Post by: smjjames on December 21, 2014, 07:44:38 am
1. Sounds kind of suggestion territory.
2. Possibly planned.
3. Theres already another suggestion thread on that, in addition to the one you linked: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145713.0 The whole 3a-d is suggestion territory.
4. Certainly planned, more interaction options besides 'kill it!' would be cool for the intelligent megabeasts. Dragons need to be made not glass cannons first though.
5. No idea. Dwarven dieties don't do the curse stuff as much as human dieties do, and the elven 'forces' are different from the dieties.
6. No idea, sounds like suggestion territory though.
7. Suggestion territory.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on December 21, 2014, 06:30:02 pm
Number 7 is covered by mods already, i think, just put in new secrets (see the modding subforum) not sure if dorfs read stuff in fortmode though or if you can setup a dedicated profession.
Post by: Rockphed on December 22, 2014, 05:54:20 am
7. A complex question here. We currently have magical power in the form of learning the secrets of life and death, thus gaining immortality and the power to raise zombies. Are we eventually going to get more forms of magic, and would it be possible to have an entity position dedicated to the research and acquisition of magical power, and the education of those who have it?
There used to be, and possibly still is, a Druid position among the elves. I would not be surprised if forces start giving secrets out to the Druids and the Druids start teaching apprentices. I imagine that there would be tags to govern this behavior so you could mod different secret positions that didn't involve running off and building a tower with zombies.
At any rate, "eventually" is a long time. Dwarf fortress has been in development for 10 years. It is currently less than 50% done, as shown by the version number. This sort of question is like asking "is there going to be another ice age", the answer to which is "unless humans do really, really impressive climate control, yes. But we don't know when."
Post by: Nopenope on December 22, 2014, 08:34:00 am
Adding to that, do you have any plans as to make driftwood usable?
And by the way, did you eat lutefisk at Christmas?
Post by: Footkerchief on December 23, 2014, 11:08:06 am
Adding to that, do you have any plans as to make driftwood usable?
This is a popular suggestion. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=search2;params=eJxLTClLzEtOTalRrzGoUapJKgKxTIGs4oz88vjk_NyCnNSSVKAYSKg0KSs1uSQ-Py-nEiqSX1QCZBWl5qSCjYEKxadkFgGFU1KLk0EiqYlFyRlAvkuQp1tIuL-_CwCXsy19)
Post by: smeeprocket on December 23, 2014, 04:42:32 pm
You should be able to name the castes already? Unless I'm missing what you mean by being able to designate a pronoun.
edit: tbh I'm kind of scared to start a new suggestion topic on its own.
I just wanted to add a quick note that having control over pronouns would be really nice.
Take it to the suggestions forum. If we let you add quick notes that aren't related to current development, which caste pronouns aren't, then before long this thread will be full of quick notes, and then full on suggestions. Toady typically doesn't even answer sugquestions anyway. He does look at the suggestion forum on a regular basis. Now go make your suggestions thread of the exact post you posted here.
I've done as you asked, but I honestly expect it to be more work in moderation for Toady than just having the post here.
Post by: smjjames on December 24, 2014, 10:13:18 am
Quote from: 12/23/2014 Toady One devlog
Let's see... there was a farming bug, where having multiple farmers on the same field caused issues. I also stopped the dwarves from deciding it's a good idea to channel their own square.
Awesome, thanks Toady One! :D
Would it still be possible to force them to channel under their own square if they absolutely have to? Like for example they get themselves stuck on a ledge and they refuse to climb out? I (and others) have used that bugged behavior to dig vertical shafts, however, the ramp designation should still work for that. Edit: Apparently someone tried to do vertical shafts and found that they couldn't, they've posted a bug report on it. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8667) There are workarounds that can be done, so it's not a massive issue.
Have you checked about dwarves channeling under each other? I swear that this happens sometimes since they'll also deconstruct under each other and also stand on the tile being deconstructed. Though with the dwarves not channeling under themselves anymore, we'll just have to see if they still channel under each other.
idea while typing: Oh hey, I don't know if they already do, but with the climbing, maybe also enable them to channel or ramp out awkward spots by climbing next to it or above/below it and doing the work from there? Just an idea.
Post by: LordBaal on December 24, 2014, 10:25:42 am
Quote from: 12/23/2014 Toady One devlog
I also stopped the dwarves from deciding it's a good idea to channel their own square.Wait what? 85% of the fun on DF came from that behavior! Then have a good day sir! I won't play anymore! :P
Keep the good work Toady!
Post by: smjjames on December 24, 2014, 10:30:26 am
Quote from: 12/23/2014 Toady One devlogI also stopped the dwarves from deciding it's a good idea to channel their own square.Wait what? 85% of the fun on DF came from that behavior! Then have a good day sir! I won't play anymore! :P
Keep the good work Toady!
Sure it's fun once in a while, but when you're trying to do a large channeling project or a large designation, it just gets annoying and in the way.
Up next though, can we please have them use more common sense while deconstructing stuff? Like trying not to stand on the tile that is being deconstructed? It's annoying when they keep hurting themselves by standing on the scaffold that is being deconstructed, and woe is the dwarf standing on a scaffolding hanging many z levels in the air.
Post by: LordBaal on December 24, 2014, 01:25:20 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 24, 2014, 04:45:09 pm
Post by: teh sam on December 24, 2014, 06:49:53 pm
Thanks Toady! This new dev plan has me really pumped!
Post by: Putnam on December 24, 2014, 07:09:48 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 24, 2014, 08:30:53 pm
Sometimes you will credit fixes to others, Quietust comes to mind. Do these other people have access to the code, or do they suggest bug fixes by examining the kind of memory items that dfhack and other programs access?
Thanks Toady! This new dev plan has me really pumped!
While those guys are knowledgeable in coding, they don't have access to the code in the way you think. The fixes are largely from binaries in DFhack that fix some bugs (the '90% of fort mode creatures don't grow to adult size' bug for example).
Some of the fixes he credits are typos for example.
Post by: Quietust on December 25, 2014, 10:15:43 pm
Most of the time, when a bugfix is credited to me, it's because I took the time to disassemble and analyze parts of the game's code (generally the specific parts that were known to be broken), figure out why it wasn't working, and produce a binary patch to make it work correctly.Sometimes you will credit fixes to others, Quietust comes to mind. Do these other people have access to the code, or do they suggest bug fixes by examining the kind of memory items that dfhack and other programs access?
Thanks Toady! This new dev plan has me really pumped!
While those guys are knowledgeable in coding, they don't have access to the code in the way you think. The fixes are largely from binaries in DFhack that fix some bugs (the '90% of fort mode creatures don't grow to adult size' bug for example).
Some of them were found by people playing recent versions of the game, while some have been lurking in the code for over 7 years (until I stumbled across them during my analysis of version 0.23.130.23a).
For example, the bugfix for #7747 looked like this to me:
Code: [Select]
.text:00474940 mov esi, offset _ui
.text:00474945 call sub_455CE0
.text:0047494A test al, al
.text:0047494C jz short loc_474962
.text:0047494E cmp bl, 3
.text:00474951 jge short loc_47495A
.text:00474953 cmp [esp+ebp+14h+var_4+1], 0
.text:00474958 jnz short loc_474962
->
.text:00474940 mov esi, offset _ui
.text:00474945 call sub_455CE0
.text:0047494A test al, al
.text:0047494C jz short loc_474962
.text:0047494E inc ebp
.text:0047494F and ebp, 3
.text:00474952 nop
.text:00474953 cmp [esp+ebp+14h+var_4], 0
.text:00474958 jnz short loc_474962
Post by: LordBaal on December 26, 2014, 06:54:07 am
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on December 26, 2014, 10:46:10 pm
Sometimes you will credit fixes to others, Quietust comes to mind. Do these other people have access to the code, or do they suggest bug fixes by examining the kind of memory items that dfhack and other programs access?
Thanks Toady! This new dev plan has me really pumped!
While those guys are knowledgeable in coding, they don't have access to the code in the way you think. The fixes are largely from binaries in DFhack that fix some bugs (the '90% of fort mode creatures don't grow to adult size' bug for example).
...
Yes, I just troubleshoot using DFHack and WinDbg on the same DF download that everyone else has.
Post by: Toady One on December 28, 2014, 10:36:05 pm
Quote from: Dirst
Do you envision a task system where more than one Dwarf can be assigned to work together on the same job?
I'm not really sure how things like the apprentice system are going to work, or things like teaching job-related skills. It would be cool to have certain larger scale jobs that can involve several skilled dwarves as well, but I haven't thought about it at all.
Quote from: k33n
What curly bracket style do you use in c++?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
No idea why. It has been 23 years now I think, though I don't remember when it solidified, and I didn't adopt it from any one place that I remember.
Quote
Quote from: WeirdsoundYou mention that because the economy is not turned on, you will not be focusing on Tavern Revenue. Will there be some watered down system where the guests hand over a fixed amount coins for you to melt/hire other travelers with? Or will the sole reward of running the tavern at this point be flavorful - getting to play the games and meet the visitors?Quote from: crapabearDo you think the tavern/inn release is going to end up requiring a full-scale resurrection of fortress economy? We'll be able to set the prices of drinks and rooms, but what use will we have for all the worthless coins(?) we collect from our guests?
We're still working it out, but we imagine they'll still be trading something, even if they're just pining for the economy's return when they do it. It could be related back to hiring visitors and some other things, hopefully in such a way that it'll work out well enough as we bring the economy online. But yeah, not the priority for this one. Unless they are giving you chickens or service or something, we'll find some point for the coins to start.
Quote from: Vattic
Why is there a 2x2 minimum embark size limit?
I didn't want to work out whatever problems might have come from having a map smaller than the display width. I'm still not sure what the problems might be, though if the nanofort people haven't had trouble they might not be serious.
Quote from: hermes
When adding new features/screens to the game, control wise do you have a scheme you are following that will be consistent with the future rewrite, or are the controls decided upon without an eye to the future because you know the UI rewrite is coming?
Without hope, pretty much. I just tried to fit things on the 'd' tab this time. I don't have enough details about the future controls to be able to do much to accommodate them. It doesn't seem to build upon itself the same way the underlying structure generally does, though perhaps that's simply a personal failing.
Quote from: palu
What was Scamps code?
I remember there was a line with like an 'fb' on it, and then a blank line with a semicolon, and another mess. He's only five.
Quote from: wobbly
How does the new system treat military dwarves?
The military stuff wasn't involved, since there weren't any jobs there. Activities still exist as book-ends for jobs, more or less, priority-wise.
Quote from: Ribs
Will wall/road building jobs ever go back to having skills associatted with them (that actually influence in the quality/ speed of the job)? I mean, it does make sense to have your guys need some skill in masonry if they want to build a stone wall... it's not exactly unskilled labor like hauling.
Actually, considering that even jobs like pump operating have a skill associated with them, will hauling jobs ever get a skill?
We'll probably get back to proper masons doing wally mason things... the way it merges with the architecture skill or whatever it ends up being is unknown, and I'm not sure which parts of the overall process of building a large stone structure use which talents and what the skills are, in the same way I don't know much about any of the professions in the game... apparently I should have fuller's earth and tenterhooks and carding and giant meter-long cloth shears.
Quote from: wobbly
I'm curious how dynamic the starting scenarios will be. Will military outposts/taverns still be able to grow in to traditional forts?
Yeah, I probably should have been careful with the wording, since the word scenario in games brings some baggage with it. It might be difficult for something like a prison colony's administration to change its remit to something more general, but even if everything starts stacked up in a certain way, we'd like it all to be mutable eventually. Each fort will exist in the same framework, even if the circumstances are different, though since the changes have to be coded, they probably won't all be possible at first.
Quote from: smjjames
With taverns, is there going to be a barista (or bartender) occupation? Then again, the brewer could fill this role easily and I've occasionally seen brewers in the drinking mounds.
As a side question, will the residential areas of goblin sites ever have furniture or will they always be spartan? I imagine that the one and two tile rooms would only have a bed and maybe a chest or cabinet, while larger chambers will have more furniture.
If there's something to do, somebody's gotta do it, though I don't recall that we have an example of a named professional dwarf that isn't entity-associated (nobles, admins, soldiers) or that doesn't have a craft skill (the workshop workers), so it'll be an interesting subject to tackle, though at first it could just be a labor setting (at least until we get more structure in with the start scenario stuff, at which point the inn/tavern zone might become a better-understood sub-organization in the fort).
Furniture in adventure mode sites got caught in a bad spot with the world gen site stockpiles not really getting the proper things produced, and now for beds etc. it wants an item from one of the site piles and they often aren't there -- it causes the furniture shortages in human buildings. With the goblin cells, I didn't even bother trying to place anything yet. For the gobs especially, I'd like them to take on the personality of their residents, since the gobs are supposed to tolerate all manner of decorations and individual variations, but that's wishful thinking until it happens.
Quote from: FearfulJesuit
Are designation priority numbers only relative to each other, or do they get taken into account with respect to other sorts of jobs, as well? Like, it's obvious that a miner will dig out a hallway labeled "1" before he goes after one labeled "7"; but will the top-priority hallway take precedence over hauling jobs while the lowest-priority hallway won't, or something like that?
The priority-designation jobs are all above the hauling jobs, but if you enable all the jobs on one dwarf, they should respect the priorities compared to each other, even for different kinds of jobs. I'm not sure what else would be the most useful, and we'll probably let it marinate for a while.
Quote from: Vattic
Now that you've caught up with the suggestions forum do you mean to read it more regularly again?
Knight Otu mentioned it was the plan, and so far we're doing okay. It's weird when you get caught up, since you kind of have to dig through the churning mass in the front page, which makes note-taking a chore, so we're more getting re-caught up every few weeks to avoid that.
Quote from: Andreus
1. So I've noticed at the moment that in a lot of situations, worldgen often creates human societies which are both agglomerations of humans and a large number of members of other species such as animal men, and also tend to be ruled by a long succession of vampires, sometimes not even of human origin. Will human societies tend to stay more human in the future?
2. In relation to the above, are we going to see more granularity in how civilizations treat members of their society that aren't the primary race - second class citizens, pariahs, slaves, or exiling them completely? Will these be options in the raws? (I know we technically have slaves right now, but they have this odd tendency to not stay slaves after a couple of generations)
6. In terms of gods in general, it seems that gods are currently specific to their respective entities. Are we eventually going to see seperate cultures of the same race having overlap in their pantheons? Will we get a raws option to encourage this happening?
7. Are we eventually going to get more forms of magic, and would it be possible to have an entity position dedicated to the research and acquisition of magical power, and the education of those who have it?
1. I haven't seen animal people as parts of human societies. Never in the shops or anything. Are you talking about the site lists? Those are generally 'monsters' in the sewers.
2. I don't know that the sort of critter is always going to be the main factor, but we're going to explore social status with start scenarios.
6. The localized pantheons became an odd part of the game when the gods started to actually do things. We're going to mess around with additional setups when we do the w.g. artifact stuff.
7. I'm not sure what or when. Clearly more will happen eventually.
Quote from: Nopenope
Have you made up your mind about what you intend to do with commented out demonic fortresses as yet?
Adding to that, do you have any plans as to make driftwood usable?
And by the way, did you eat lutefisk at Christmas?
We have some plans now, involved with the upcoming overall w.g. artifact additions. As of now, they are still secret plans.
I think there's something in the notes about driftwood, along with being able to pull up boulders.
Lutefisk was on the 27th this time, though the main event was a toddler with his grandfather's electric toothbrush cleaning the house. They've really improved the batteries on those things.
Quote from: smjjames
Have you checked about dwarves channeling under each other? I swear that this happens sometimes since they'll also deconstruct under each other and also stand on the tile being deconstructed. Though with the dwarves not channeling under themselves anymore, we'll just have to see if they still channel under each other.
I haven't looked at this. I didn't remove the check for a dwarf for deconstructions, but it's possible it's broken.
Post by: gabrek on December 28, 2014, 11:42:12 pm
Post by: lethosor on December 28, 2014, 11:55:30 pm
It's possible for 2x2 embarks to be smaller than the screen width as well, which doesn't seem to be causing problems. There do seem to be problems with underground wildlife (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146493.0) on 1x1 maps, however.Quote from: VatticWhy is there a 2x2 minimum embark size limit?
I didn't want to work out whatever problems might have come from having a map smaller than the display width. I'm still not sure what the problems might be, though if the nanofort people haven't had trouble they might not be serious.
Post by: Vattic on December 29, 2014, 01:12:24 am
Post by: Sizik on December 29, 2014, 09:00:04 am
It's possible for 2x2 embarks to be smaller than the screen width as well, which doesn't seem to be causing problems. There do seem to be problems with underground wildlife (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146493.0) on 1x1 maps, however.Quote from: VatticWhy is there a 2x2 minimum embark size limit?
I didn't want to work out whatever problems might have come from having a map smaller than the display width. I'm still not sure what the problems might be, though if the nanofort people haven't had trouble they might not be serious.
The restriction was probably put in place when the game was limited to 80x25 tiles.
Post by: Knight Otu on December 29, 2014, 09:07:58 am
Post by: xaritscin on December 29, 2014, 10:26:23 am
its not like it isnt good for militia training but makes it complicated to keep an eye in the rest of the fort because you have to keep checking the units menu looking at the possible menaces.
adding a set(or even a random) time between creature appearance would be good. right now cavern creatures appear more frequently than aboveground creatures. life in a cavern should be a rare appearance, just saying.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on December 29, 2014, 11:35:17 am
Post by: Dirst on December 29, 2014, 02:55:36 pm
Thanks Toady for the answers and your untiring work on this fantastic game.Quote from: DirstDo you envision a task system where more than one Dwarf can be assigned to work together on the same job?
I'm not really sure how things like the apprentice system are going to work, or things like teaching job-related skills. It would be cool to have certain larger scale jobs that can involve several skilled dwarves as well, but I haven't thought about it at all.
There are a few Suggestions threads concerning apprentices, and without delving too deeply I'm pretty sure the suggested systems are approximately 100% incompatible with each other... which will keep everyone guessing about what will actually happen.
As for multiple critters on the same task, the simplest solution is for completion time to equal 1 / ( 1/a + 1/b + 1/c + ... ) where a, b, c, etc. are the times it would take individuals to complete the task. The secret sauce will be deciding how many help on the job and the quality level of the combined work.
Post by: Catharsis on December 29, 2014, 06:43:07 pm
Oh, and better animal (and farming in general) automation. Auto-milking, butchering, shearing, spinning, dyeing, weaving, cooking etc. It's really zero fun micromanaging most of these. Just throw a breeding pair/thread/cookorbrew limit on there and work out the kinks.
Post by: Putnam on December 29, 2014, 06:44:28 pm
Yeah, I know it's no fun, but all of the stuff that is broken I just want fixed before any more new features get added...
Oh, and better animal (and farming in general) automation. Auto-milking, butchering, shearing, spinning, dyeing, weaving, cooking etc. It's really zero fun micromanaging most of these. Just throw a breeding pair/thread/cookorbrew limit on there and work out the kinks.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0
Post by: Catharsis on December 29, 2014, 06:50:27 pm
Post by: Putnam on December 29, 2014, 06:56:51 pm
Eh, I already know it's been requested a bunch of times. My main point was please just don't add a bunch more half broken stuff on top of what's already broken.
The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments. Specific bugs should be reported on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/), and specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here. In the past, we've all found the practice of making questions limegreen works pretty well. You do that like this:Code: [Select][color=limegreen]making questions limegreen[/color]
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on December 29, 2014, 06:59:53 pm
Quote from: wobblyI'm curious how dynamic the starting scenarios will be. Will military outposts/taverns still be able to grow in to traditional forts?
Yeah, I probably should have been careful with the wording, since the word scenario in games brings some baggage with it. It might be difficult for something like a prison colony's administration to change its remit to something more general, but even if everything starts stacked up in a certain way, we'd like it all to be mutable eventually. Each fort will exist in the same framework, even if the circumstances are different, though since the changes have to be coded, they probably won't all be possible at first.
Just to clarify, there is no way in which two forts will be different if you start them from different starting scenarios but then change them such that they are identical (if you could do such a thing)? I ask (again) because on the development page, there are quotes like,
Quote from: Development Page
We're also holding off on "work crew" approaches for similar reasons, and it's quite possible these might arise with guilds and other features when the nature of the fortress is understood through the scenario.
that make it sound like the scenario really does determine (via hard-coding at the start) some things about how "the nature of the fortress is understood". It would be cool if that sort of thing was also dynamic, such that the game would understand at some point that you're making a fortress of a certain nature (e.g., a wayside tavern(-fortress)) based on how you're building it, and then perhaps manipulate certain features and behaviors based on that as necessary (and would hopefully not get that wrong too often).
Sorry about the slightly repeated question; it's just an appeal for clarification as stated.
Post by: Toady One on December 29, 2014, 10:27:30 pm
Quote from: Development PageWe're also holding off on "work crew" approaches for similar reasons, and it's quite possible these might arise with guilds and other features when the nature of the fortress is understood through the scenario.
[makes] it sound like the scenario really does determine (via hard-coding at the start) some things about how "the nature of the fortress is understood". It would be cool if that sort of thing was also dynamic, such that the game would understand at some point that you're making a fortress of a certain nature (e.g., a wayside tavern(-fortress)) based on how you're building it, and then perhaps manipulate certain features and behaviors based on that as necessary (and would hopefully not get that wrong too often).
I didn't mean nature as an intrinsic and unchanging thing, but just "how it is now". I don't plan to have anything set as a permanent trait of the fort, but if mechanisms of change aren't added, the related variables/etc. are effectively constant. So it's just a matter of doing the work, like anything else. Our goal is to have the starting state be fully mutable, so that, for instance, you could become a focal point for a religion or a destination for prisoners later on in your game, even if you started as a roadside inn, assuming the transitions make some kind of sense. The mechanics for these transitions/additions/subtractions are up in the air -- detection can be hard, and manual selection can be immersion-breaking/clunky, so we're going to have to see what happens. I think the only example we have now is that choice to become a barony, which isn't that interesting since we didn't add negative consequences. It seems like become a popular destination relies on your work on your tavern zones and then waiting for rumors/rep to build, pilgrimage stuff can depend on the quality of your temple and chance, and stuff like receiving prisoners would be a more explicitly decided thing.
So yeah, this isn't related to "missions" or "scenarios" that you might select in, say, a strategy game. We're simply adding some background for why your fortress is being founded, and that by necessity puts some initial structure in place. Just as the entity positions and historical links etc. are all stored in a dynamic fashion, these new data structures will all be alterable as mechanics go in. The currently released fort's relationship to its parent society already has many assumptions in place that are more hard-coded than anything we'll be adding, and these current facts will also be encoded in a more free-form fashion (the way the caravan works, the way the liaison works, the number of starting dwarves, the law, property and labor, etc.).
Post by: bigmac3003 on December 30, 2014, 02:09:10 am
It sounds strange the way I'm putting it so let me give you some examples.
I've felt like a jerk for a while because my companion got his foot cut off by a gobbo a while back, and he has no family or anyone to leave with, so I just let him crawl and follow me around. I want to be able to throw his arm over me and help him walk, or drag him away from dangerious situations.
That also brings up a few other things, like when a companion decides to take a dip in the river I jumped across, I really wish I could grab their arm and pull them out before they drown, or grab them as they jump for the less athletic ones.
Or even pick up a person and carry them, or just grab someone by the arm, like maybe someone put a bounty on you, or the guards need you to leave, maybe they can drag you out by the upper arm or even throat.
And lastly, but not least. Hugs. With the emotion system in right now people tend to cry alot, what they need are hugs. lots of hugs really bad.
Especially when I bring a chunk of my dead companion to their family to prove their death, as to say your sorry but they died fighting beside you.
I guess you could also add hand holding (for married couples only! :-[)
Post by: Putnam on December 30, 2014, 02:10:52 am
Post by: Eric Blank on December 30, 2014, 03:09:34 am
Dragging people away from their own stupidity would be an awesome feature to throw in the suggestions forum.
Post by: GreenScape on December 30, 2014, 03:12:25 am
Post by: utunnels on December 30, 2014, 03:26:57 am
Quote from: smjjamesHave you checked about dwarves channeling under each other? I swear that this happens sometimes since they'll also deconstruct under each other and also stand on the tile being deconstructed. Though with the dwarves not channeling under themselves anymore, we'll just have to see if they still channel under each other.
I haven't looked at this. I didn't remove the check for a dwarf for deconstructions, but it's possible it's broken.
I know it needs to be fixed.
But this problem is kinda cool.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133103.msg4754790#msg4754790
Post by: lethosor on December 30, 2014, 08:50:53 am
Have you switched to c++11/14? How much did it make a coding easier?Both compilers he uses (MSVC 2010 and GCC 4.5) are from 2010, but both support some C++11 features. I'm not sure exactly which ones he uses, however.
Post by: Footkerchief on December 30, 2014, 10:54:57 am
I know this may sound a little odd but is it possible for non-lethal/fighting type grappling to ever become a thing, or even a planned feature?
It sounds strange the way I'm putting it so let me give you some examples.
I've felt like a jerk for a while because my companion got his foot cut off by a gobbo a while back, and he has no family or anyone to leave with, so I just let him crawl and follow me around. I want to be able to throw his arm over me and help him walk, or drag him away from dangerious situations.
That also brings up a few other things, like when a companion decides to take a dip in the river I jumped across, I really wish I could grab their arm and pull them out before they drown, or grab them as they jump for the less athletic ones.
Or even pick up a person and carry them, or just grab someone by the arm, like maybe someone put a bounty on you, or the guards need you to leave, maybe they can drag you out by the upper arm or even throat.
There's this:
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
Bloat271, DRAGGING PEOPLE AROUND, (Future): Ability to drag somebody around instead of releasing a wrestling hold when you move.
There's also at least one Suggestions thread that touches on the friendly aspect:
It would probably work with wrestling, being able to drag your opponent around, but i guess it would also help if your allies jump into a pool of water.You'd be able to drag them out, slowing down there inevitable deaths.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on December 30, 2014, 05:01:41 pm
How do invaders find their way to a fort now, do they have to path over other sites to get to the fort?
Post by: CaptainArchmage on December 30, 2014, 11:22:50 pm
I'm not sure if I'm going to be trying one of those anytime soon but it could lead to more tower or 16x1 or 1x16 road fortresses.
Quote
I also fixed a crash that has been happening in unretired forts (generally when the caravan arrived).
Was this bug back in DF2010 or DF2012? I remember there was some kind of crash issue I'd had on one fortress that affected fortresses on windows but not the mac version of the game or vice versa, and that was in DF2012, I think.
How do invaders find their way to a fort now, do they have to path over other sites to get to the fort?
How do invaders find their way to a fort now, do they have to path over other sites to get to the fort? - KillzEmAllGod
I've put that in lime green and also put it out of quotes since I'd really like that one answered by Toady, if possible.
Post by: Putnam on December 30, 2014, 11:24:36 pm
Post by: CaptainArchmage on December 30, 2014, 11:30:14 pm
It was happening specifically in unretired forts, which you couldn't do before 0.40.01.
....... I had read that as "non-retired forts", which is why. But the crash-as-the-caravan-rolled-in bug did hit me once and on a succession game actually, so it is probably documented on these forums somewhere.
Post by: lethosor on December 30, 2014, 11:37:36 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on December 30, 2014, 11:41:22 pm
....... I had read that as "non-retired forts", which is why. But the crash-as-the-caravan-rolled-in bug did hit me once and on a succession game actually, so it is probably documented on these forums somewhere.
Caravan arrivals have historically triggered a variety of crashes, many of which have since been fixed, so there's probably no connection.
Post by: k33n on December 31, 2014, 12:59:03 am
Post by: Manzeenan on December 31, 2014, 02:19:58 am
[GETS_UNNECESSARILY_EXCITED]
[LIKES_1X1EMBARK]
Post by: Vattic on December 31, 2014, 02:29:51 am
Post by: LordBaal on December 31, 2014, 09:42:07 am
Post by: Rose on December 31, 2014, 11:12:48 am
Threading is such a huge can of worms you don't even know.
Post by: reality.auditor on December 31, 2014, 11:26:16 am
multi-threadingForget about it. No, seriously. This was done to death already zilion times here. It will NOT be done. You are welcome.
Post by: Footkerchief on December 31, 2014, 11:28:29 am
Toady, have you thought when/if you ever going to implement what in most people eye's might seem like two critical improvements to the code, that's it, 64 bits and multi-threading?
64-bit:
Quote from: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146696.msg5888504#msg5888504
Quote from: JapaOn that note, do you have plans of attempting a 64bit build?
Yeah, I did the first attempt on that and it totally failed, since my express MSVC doesn't even support it. If I want to continue using MSVC, I'll have to buy it now I think, or go through some weird process which doesn't work for half of the people. It caused everything to be delayed.
Quote from: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146696.msg5888709#msg5888709
Quote from: MiuramirI was just going to link to Visual Studio Community 2013 myself; it claims to have all the functionality of Visual Studio 2013 Pro, but is free to download and use for individuals and teams of up to 5 developers (plus academic, research, and open-source use). If this doesn't do the job, I'm sure a collection could be arranged to get you the workflow tools you need to move to 64-bit; IMO it's a matter of when, not if.
Money's not the problem. I just need something that works, I didn't have that last time I tried, and I didn't want to risk gumming up progress with new compiler mishaps. I guess once I get this release cleaned up we'll be at the best lull I'm going to find for a while, although I still have no idea how it's going to work.
You didn't used to have to change your computer... if that's true, we'll have to wait a bit longer.
Multithreading:
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_9_transcript.html
Rainseeker: Here's a technical question; 'Recently in computer architecture the paradigm has shifted to multiple cores. I was wondering if Dwarf Fortress will support multiple threads eventually, and if so what timescale it will occur in.'
Toady: It is my understanding that the SDL stuff is now multicored, with the graphics and the graphics display and so on. Now obviously people, when they're asking about it, that's one important point but people are curious like 'why can't I have seventeen dwarves pathing at once' or 'why can't you take that stupid ass weather simulation and make that go happen on some core, preferably not at all'. It's complicated, and from what I gather it would be a really difficult long project and it's probably not going to happen. That's what I gather. Now there are some things, like these micro multithreading of a smaller process just to get through one loop faster, it can break it up and then come back without it being a case of running path finding at the same time as you're running a fluid simulation, and that stuff, the more I know about that the better, probably, and maybe that's feasible. As for splitting up the path finding and stuff: some people have discussed about how that might work, but as for whether anything is actually going to come of that, I wouldn't bet on it anyway.
Post by: Dirst on December 31, 2014, 11:51:43 am
I hope the switch-over is as simple as changing a couple flags in the code and re-compiling in the new environment.
Post by: Rose on December 31, 2014, 12:11:03 pm
I hope the switch-over is as simple as changing a couple flags in the code and re-compiling in the new environment.Sadly, in development, things are rarely this simple.
It's quite likely that everything will explode on upgrade.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on December 31, 2014, 01:21:01 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on December 31, 2014, 01:30:34 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on December 31, 2014, 02:06:36 pm
Two of the starting scenario examples were a prison and a religious center. Are the features necessary for these going to be added, or will new starting scenarios be added later?
The necessary features will be added eventually, but probably not all of them in the first release of start scenarios. The targeted frameworks sound pretty big:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Fortress Starting Scenarios
Framework
Expand framework of law, custom, rights, property and status as needed to provide a variety of scenarios
Foundation of laws, both natural and supernatural
Explicit standing of different citizens vs. civilization authorities
Possible expansion of religious and family concepts to provide sufficient scenarios
Starting scenarios
Various possiblities that guide or govern fortress activity: frontier settlement, religious site, prison colony, mining company, military citadel, roadside inn, secondary/future palace of the monarch
Drastic changes to migrants based on starting scenario
Caravans/diplomatic relationships based on starting scenario
Reclaim mechanics should be folded into this
Generalize starting scenario relationships to every site foundation
Hill/deep dwarves
Ability to bring extra dwarves appropriate to the starting scenario
Entity populations surrounding your fortress in appropriate environments, both above and below ground
Ability to move dwarves in and out of surroundings
Relationship with surrounding dwarves
Ability to trade/demand food in depot or similar place with surrounding dwarves
Post by: Knight Otu on December 31, 2014, 03:29:28 pm
It's so big, it's wearing adamantine and slade spires for jewelry. ;) At least that's what I said in another thread.Two of the starting scenario examples were a prison and a religious center. Are the features necessary for these going to be added, or will new starting scenarios be added later?
The necessary features will be added eventually, but probably not all of them in the first release of start scenarios. The targeted frameworks sound pretty big:
Post by: riffraffselbow on December 31, 2014, 03:34:14 pm
It always bugs me when priority systems don't have this kind of automation, because I always end up having to go back in and manually advance things to fit something in at the bottom. By the way, it'd be nice, when assigning priorities, to see some kind of indication of how many tasks each priority level has in it currently, or at least a binary "lightbulb" telling me if a level has any tasks.
Post by: Putnam on December 31, 2014, 03:34:45 pm
With the priority-designation system, could we get some kind of (maybe optional?) conveyor-belt automation? So when all the tasks labeled 1 (or maybe all the tasks labeled 1 in some subset of labors, like "mining" or "farmwork" (maybe grouping by labor group, individual skill, or not at all should be another option)) are finished, all the 2s become 1s, the 3s become 2s, etc.
It always bugs me when priority systems don't have this kind of automation, because I always end up having to go back in and manually advance things to fit something in at the bottom. By the way, it'd be nice, when assigning priorities, to see some kind of indication of how many tasks each priority level has in it currently, or at least a binary "lightbulb" telling me if a level has any tasks.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0
Post by: monk12 on January 01, 2015, 08:55:56 pm
Quote from: Threetoe
You people always come through when we depend on you- and we do depend on you for the Rock & Roll lifestyle we have become accustomed to.
This gave me a good laugh.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on January 02, 2015, 12:37:20 am
A.K.A. The Shaft of Enlightenment and the Planepacked glitch.
It is terrifying.
Post by: flabort on January 02, 2015, 03:16:37 am
Wait, no, that's a 24hour clock. Just half a day before 2015.
Post by: Darkweave on January 02, 2015, 09:40:39 am
and
I was listening to some of the older DFTalks and was particularly interested in the game vs simulation discussions. What parts of the game do you currently feel are the worst offenders in terms of being way too gamey or way too simulationey? Are there any parts of the game for which you think you got the balance almost spot on?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on January 02, 2015, 09:43:39 am
Looking over the bug tracker change log, I see bug 6397 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6397) and bug 1416 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1416) have been fixed.Noooooooooooooooooo. Those were the best bugs in the whole game. I never got to make my own planepacked and I'm sad i'll never get to now.
A.K.A. The Shaft of Enlightenment and the Planepacked glitch.
It is terrifying.
It is terrible.
Post by: flabort on January 02, 2015, 09:46:25 am
What I'm saying is a future release will introduce a similar bug, and you'll get your planepacked.
But no timeline on what feature could possibly rebreak the game.
Post by: Max™ on January 02, 2015, 10:10:21 am
giant meter-long cloth shears.....see, you say that, but all I see is "urist-long method of selectively removing limbs for !!Science!! purposes", strange.
Post by: endlessblaze on January 02, 2015, 10:06:06 pm
Don't worry. The planepacked glitch existed before burrows, but the incarnation that Toady just fixed was for the Burrow version.
What I'm saying is a future release will introduce a similar bug, and you'll get your planepacked.
But no timeline on what feature could possibly rebreak the game.
I hope so. I never did my planepack either, was hopeing for lots of stuff first.....
Post by: Manzeenan on January 02, 2015, 11:48:48 pm
Post by: endlessblaze on January 03, 2015, 01:23:15 am
I will agree that planepacked would fit as a feature nicely, just seems like something dwarfs would be able to do.
Post by: Darkweave on January 03, 2015, 05:35:34 am
Hill/deep dwarves
Entity populations surrounding your fortress in appropriate environments, both above and below ground
Ability to move dwarves in and out of surroundings
Relationship with surrounding dwarves
Ability to trade/demand food in depot or similar place with surrounding dwarves
Dwarven armies
Ability to send out fortress dwarves to lead larger groups of surrounding dwarves out around mid-level maps (or just go alone)
Ability to send equipment and fortress dwarves out to train surrounding dwarves
As it stands right now we can embark on the opposite side of the world to the rest of our civilization. Presumably this could mean very long travel times when interacting with existing hill and deep dwarves especially when trying to set up armies or come to their aid? It also wouldn't make much sense for hillocks half-way across the world to be under the control of our barony when other dwarf baronies are already much closer. Will we eventually have dwarves founding hillocks in the vicinity of our own fortresses when we embark or as our fortress grows more powerful? If so do you envision this as something we control, perhaps sending some of our own citizens to found a new hillock, or will it be something the parent civilization does in the background? What if our surroundings are unsuitable for hillocks eg terrifying glaciers surrounded by goblin pits? What if our parent civ is dead(-ish)?
Post by: Areyar on January 03, 2015, 05:48:04 am
Why not use a mandate-like system for starting scenarios?
I mean, that is what a mandate is right?
You could get a mandate from your King in some scenarios, to ignore at your own peril.
It also gives the liason an extra function.
Too suggestiony:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Footkerchief on January 03, 2015, 11:23:33 am
Let's say I embark at the opposite side of the world to my civilization's settlements/hills/halls. How are local hill dwarf settlements - so that we have some to interact with - going to be formed? Will some be founded when we embark? When we become a barony? Will some of our own dwarves request permission to go and form a hill site and then receive their own migrants from our parent civ? What if we embark on a terrifying glacier or have similarly unsuitable surroundings for hill dwarves? If our civ is otherwise dead when we embark are we effectively screwed when it comes to having hill dwarf interaction?
Dwarven hillocks, the hill dwarf sites, were added to the world in 0.40.01, so they're already out there waiting to be interacted with.
I'm going to risk being hammered by posting a suggestion right here . . . but I'll take the risk.
Why not use a mandate-like system for starting scenarios?
I mean, that is what a mandate is right?
You could get a mandate from your King in some scenarios, to ignore at your own peril.
It also gives the liason an extra function.
Too suggestiony:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The overlap has been noted:
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html#22.32
Threetoe: The next question is from Jacob, and he asks, "Will nobles give a better explanation why they want something?"
Toady: Well, there isn't really much of a reason right now. They do have their preferences, where if they prefer a certain material, they'll ban its export and then demand that you make stuff out of it. And that's really all the reasons that we have right now. I think as the start scenarios and other things move forward, we'll probably slowly move away from arbitrary demands being one of the forces at work in your fortress and move it over toward things that actually make a little more sense. And then hopefully, by that time you won't need better explanations or we'll provide them when they're necessary.
Post by: Dirst on January 03, 2015, 11:31:38 am
The overlap has been noted:"When I was a lad, I know you and Mom couldn't afford a mini-forge for me to play with. But now I'm mayor, and I'll have them now! Tell the craftsdwarves to make mini-forges! Bring them to..."Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html#22.32Threetoe: The next question is from Jacob, and he asks, "Will nobles give a better explanation why they want something?"
Toady: Well, there isn't really much of a reason right now. They do have their preferences, where if they prefer a certain material, they'll ban its export and then demand that you make stuff out of it. And that's really all the reasons that we have right now. I think as the start scenarios and other things move forward, we'll probably slowly move away from arbitrary demands being one of the forces at work in your fortress and move it over toward things that actually make a little more sense. And then hopefully, by that time you won't need better explanations or we'll provide them when they're necessary.
"Urist, we had just as much as anyone else in this Fort. We didn't get you a min-forge because you're clumsy and you'd probably crush a hand."
"What? These are perfectly safe for any dwarf. See? It's per-- Ouch!"
Post by: Darkweave on January 03, 2015, 12:18:17 pm
Post by: Virtual Russian on January 04, 2015, 10:25:15 am
Could we see an upgrade to the very young ceramics industry? I am a professional potter and have some very simple/reasonable suggestions that would make it much more realistic. I doubt any of these would require serious work and could be implemented quickly.
1. Earthenware should be able to be glazed by lead. It would consume galena, historically it was dusted onto earthenware pots and then glaze fired. This is the only way to properly waterproof earthenware, ash glazes are for stoneware or porcelain and would leak on earthenware. Tin is a colorant in glaze, tin glazed earthenware is actually a lead glaze. Interestingly, a properly made lead glaze is safe for food. So syndromes are not needed.
2. Allow for production of mugs, potters live and die on mug production, it would be a nice addition.
3. Porcelain should be more like steel. It should require at least 1 fuel, 1 kaolinite and one flux stone. Realistically it would also require sand. Real Porcelain is the combination of Kaolin, Feldspar and Silica/sand. This would probably increase its value further. In the time period DF is supposed to imitate in European history porcelain was nearly worth its weight in gold. The King of Saxony once traded a regiment of Dragoons to another King in exchange for some large porcelain vases.
4. Perhaps this isn't possible, but tin glaze is traditionally painted on with certain oxides. Perhaps glazers could put imagery onto the ceramic the way it goes on clothes or the way crafts reference history. Colours as follows: Cobaltite gives blue, Rutile gives yellow, Iron gives brown, copper gives green. Traditionally these are processed, but use of raw materials would be fine.
If these were added we would have a much more realistic ceramic industry, though I am grateful its in the game at all.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 04, 2015, 10:34:22 am
Post by: therahedwig on January 04, 2015, 10:35:35 am
*whispers*This needs to go to the suggestions forum, read the first post*whispers*
Could we see an upgrade to the very young ceramics industry? I am a professional potter and have some very simple/reasonable suggestions that would make it much more realistic. I doubt any of these would require serious work and could be implemented quickly.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 04, 2015, 10:37:38 am
Post by: Footkerchief on January 04, 2015, 12:52:44 pm
Post by: bluephoenix on January 04, 2015, 08:57:08 pm
Quote
I fixed a problem today which sometimes caused dwarves not to fight monsters/invaders, especially if there were lots of other dwarves in line-of-sight.
Praise the lord! :P
Great to see this bug gone, it caused a lot of headache for quiet a few people.
Post by: flabort on January 04, 2015, 10:27:09 pm
Post by: Dirst on January 05, 2015, 02:16:27 pm
So dwarves are vulnerable to moral hazard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard). Seems compatible with their tendency to go on break just when their skills are needed most!QuoteI fixed a problem today which sometimes caused dwarves not to fight monsters/invaders, especially if there were lots of other dwarves in line-of-sight.
Praise the lord! :P
Great to see this bug gone, it caused a lot of headache for quiet a few people.
Post by: Button on January 07, 2015, 02:41:49 pm
Did you give bloated tubers & muck roots seeds? If so, will they be plantable/farmable now?
Did you remove the seed product from the brew-from-plant reaction? If so, will we need to get our seeds from radishes, potatoes etc. some other way?
Did you change reaction code in such a way that the existence or nonexistence of the reaction's products in the material no longer determines whether the reaction can begin? If so, what other reactions have been touched?
Or did you just do a quick-and-dirty fix like the instantly-disintegrating fake seed?
40.24 is out and he gave them seeds.
While I'm happy that we'll be able to plant bloated tubers and muck roots now, I'm also sad because I was hoping for changes to the reaction code.
Post by: Toady One on January 09, 2015, 04:49:31 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 09, 2015, 04:53:14 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on January 09, 2015, 04:58:14 pm
Derails are fun, why prune them?
From the OP:
The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments. [...] Questions and comments about the development page or DF development somewhat more broadly work here, though any contentious topics that lead to derails are discouraged -- there are threads for those too.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 09, 2015, 06:28:44 pm
Post by: Zarathustra30 on January 10, 2015, 10:30:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: endlessblaze on January 10, 2015, 11:43:06 pm
I am quite excited by the most recent devlog (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/#2015-01-10), but I shall strive to remain calm.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
.....SO MUCH AEWSOME!
Edit: [glow=Green] also forgot to ask.
Does this
We'll have more information about visitor interactions as we get closer to that. There will be an economic aspect but it won't yet be emphasized. We're going to deal with any remaining issues with multi-species forts for this release, and there'll be opportunities to incorporate some visiting critters into your fort on a more permanent basis (most likely mercenaries/adventurers).
Mean we will be able to have elves and goblins in our forts soon? I'm realy craveing that eleven agility and memory in my troops and and other industry's[/glow]
Post by: Farmerbob on January 11, 2015, 01:54:49 am
If a substantial part of the fortress community likes a specific food or drink, the production of that food and drink would have a higher priority than other foods and drinks, and the cooks and brewers would complain if they didn't have the materials to keep stocks at an acceptable level. That, in turn, would lead to the farmers putting a higher priority into tending and harvesting the components required for making the drinks and foods that the fortress wants.
To make this more... fun... Nobles and officers of the fortress could have exaggerated weighting. If the king likes plump helmets, he counts as ten dwarves. A noble might count as five, and a mayor or sheriff three.
This could lead to interesting social conflict. If the king who really likes plump helmets discovers that they are now gone, he's going to have a bad thought. If he sees someone eating a plump helmet while he still hasn't gotten one himself, he's going to have an angry thought, and might even call for the hammerer.
This could extend into trade caravans, as automatic weighting. Traders talk to people. They learn what the fortress likes, and even without the player requesting anything at all, they will automatically attempt to bring with them things that the fortress dwarves want. Again, higher ranking dwarves count for more.
We might even see traders bringing gifts to fortress officers, small gifts of varying quality and value that are simply given to the fortress nobles and officers directly. For a mayor or sheriff, that might be a good high quality serving of booze to be drunk on the spot when the officer meets with the trader. For a noble, it might be a trinket made of a metal or stone that they favor. For a king it might be a piece of furniture made of preferred metal, stone, or wood, encrusted with gems they like, and engraved with scenes of the deity they worship.
If the trader has been happy with the fortress's purchasing habits in the past, a very nice gift will be given. If the fortress has been aggressive in the past, there might be no gift, or a very low quality gift, though nobles and kings would always get at least a token something, if the trader is very unhappy, the gift might be something the noble or king is known to dislike...
Of course gifting in this manner would likely then require a place for items to be placed. Perhaps a new stockpile type for gifts? Fortress officers would then store their gifts in these stockpiles, and if anyone else touches the gifts...
I know at least some of this is being planned, but I'm wondering to what degree it's been planned, and how interactive it would be.
Post by: Eric Blank on January 11, 2015, 01:56:37 am
With multi-species forts, will intelligent pets/non-civilized animal-men or whatever (gorlaks!) be eligible for citizenship, or will it only be possible for other already civilized species to become citizens for now?
When a creature signs on to the fortress roster, will you have them keep the ethics and values of their homeland or immediately adopt all of the customs of their adoptive country, or some average inbetween?
Post by: WordsandChaos on January 11, 2015, 06:46:36 am
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on January 11, 2015, 07:41:12 am
Post by: LordBaal on January 11, 2015, 08:06:09 am
Standing orders! Hell yeah! Maybe it could be something between the book keeper and the manager.
Post by: Rose on January 11, 2015, 11:18:17 am
Post by: Dirst on January 11, 2015, 01:56:59 pm
Good gods yes this is going to be awesome!So, eventually we will have yaks appointed as generals and cows convicted of murder...
With multi-species forts, will intelligent pets/non-civilized animal-men or whatever (gorlaks!) be eligible for citizenship, or will it only be possible for other already civilized species to become citizens for now?
When a creature signs on to the fortress roster, will you have them keep the ethics and values of their homeland or immediately adopt all of the customs of their adoptive country, or some average inbetween?
Post by: tps12 on January 11, 2015, 02:20:46 pm
Quote
We're going to deal with any remaining issues with multi-species forts for this release
Will this release fix bug 4692 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4692)?
Post by: MDFification on January 11, 2015, 02:31:16 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on January 11, 2015, 03:05:42 pm
That's the idea, yes.QuoteWe're going to deal with any remaining issues with multi-species forts for this release
Will this release fix bug 4692 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4692)?
Since the next release is going to add in intellectual needs for dwarves, does that mean we can expect some sort of temple zone at some point after the tavern update?Possibly as part of the start scenarios. One of those Toady plans for the start is establishing a religious site. That would be a good place to add spiritual needs and the spiritual zones and activities to fulfill them.
Post by: Putnam on January 11, 2015, 06:01:29 pm
Will there be barfights with the inclusion of taverns and inns? Please say yes.
Barfights were already sorta included in 0.40.01. You can even set up the aggression level in the arena as "brawl".
Post by: endlessblaze on January 11, 2015, 06:06:28 pm
Post by: lethosor on January 11, 2015, 06:18:33 pm
will we be able to listen in on the story telling and conversations? if so the story telling could be a good way to learn about your worlds history if it ever includes historical stories, and give a deeper insight into your civilization if the story being told is a legend or fairy tale.(Green-glowing text on a dark background isn't nearly as easy to pick out as green text.)
Post by: Jakob on January 11, 2015, 06:40:12 pm
will we be able to listen in on the story telling and conversations? if so the story telling could be a good way to learn about your worlds history if it ever includes historical stories, and give a deeper insight into your civilization if the story being told is a legend or fairy tale.
"In 223 Ozboth the Baths of Killing was killed by Urist the Dwarf"
"That's terrifying"
x100
Post by: Dirst on January 11, 2015, 09:56:10 pm
I'd expect the stories to be more like the description of an in-game book, though probably skewing toward lighter "writing" styles. In the eventual nursery zones, we might even get children's tales.will we be able to listen in on the story telling and conversations? if so the story telling could be a good way to learn about your worlds history if it ever includes historical stories, and give a deeper insight into your civilization if the story being told is a legend or fairy tale.
"In 223 Ozboth the Baths of Killing was killed by Urist the Dwarf"
"That's terrifying"
x100
Post by: Knight Otu on January 12, 2015, 06:34:28 am
will we be able to listen in on the story telling and conversations? if so the story telling could be a good way to learn about your worlds history if it ever includes historical stories, and give a deeper insight into your civilization if the story being told is a legend or fairy tale.From DF Talk #12:
Quote
Rainseeker: Could you perhaps listen to the story? Like with the game, you could just jump in and listen to it?
Toady: You'd certainly be able to see what the story is about. If it's randomly generating the dude talking ... I threatened at one point to do a poetry generator, I've threatened these things, and if it comes down to it now it seems early because we haven't done the grammar rewrites and the things that I wanted to do with that stuff, so it might not happen immediately. Before I play too much with language I wanted to get through those things, but if it's just ...
[snip]
Toady: That's right ... You should be able to see what they're about, even if it isn't giving you the blow-by-blow, and there are things it can do, like if he's retelling the story of a war, he can talk about ... you know we've got the different list of events that happened and the storyteller might highlight a particular duel from that war, just mention it or whatever ... So you'll get some information, I doubt we'll be jumping too far off the deep end on that one right now, and what else ... singing, and dancing ... what else do people do to entertain themselves? I don't know if they're going to be putting on plays...
Capntastic: Boasting.
Toady: Yeah, just talking all kinds of crap.
Rainseeker: That would be kind of cool, have them lying about stuff they've done, they tell a story but it's actually a lie.
Toady: Yeah we can finally use those personality traits, those lying skills, and their creativity. And they could make up fake stories, it's not boasting, it's just telling a funny story or whatever. So it should be cool; one of the main things of that release is just getting your dwarves in there and not just having these stand around and talk parties. There's a place for that, but not in a dwarf fortress ... and they don't even have drinks, they're just sitting there talking to each other, I guess they've all just really close friends talking about old times and doddering around or something. But not anymore.
Post by: endlessblaze on January 12, 2015, 06:49:15 am
This...is....going....to be.....AEWSOME
Post by: Areyar on January 12, 2015, 12:23:24 pm
><
market places can be so loud.
maybe that at some point only some of the closest speakers can be understood (depending on their loudness).
The master creator is working on some very exiting stuff to be sure! :D
Post by: Afghani84 on January 12, 2015, 03:40:53 pm
thank you so much for all the great work. DF is definitely one of the most amazing games i've ever played!
I was wondering if and when we can expect a fix to the overlap issues between military equipment and certain jobs (miners, woodcutters). I know it's not a major issue but it is one that annoys me the most :D
I also would love to see the option to resize stockpiles and activity zones implemented in dwarf mode!
Post by: Inarius on January 12, 2015, 04:57:38 pm
Quote
hey toady!
thank you so much for all the great work. DF is definitely one of the most amazing games i've ever played!
I was wondering if and when we can expect a fix to the overlap issues between military equipment and certain jobs (miners, woodcutters). I know it's not a major issue but it is one that annoys me the most :D
Moreover, this is more a bug fixing thing, so I think you should post elsewhere if you want to have a chance to be heard and replied.
Post by: Tawa on January 12, 2015, 06:36:32 pm
Because it would be hilarious if it was something like:
Urist McBard (to Urist McAudience1): "In a time before time, Dedak Storydwarf struck down Urist Legendaxe in the Fake Hills."
Urist McAudience1 (to Urist McBard): "That is terrific!"
Urist McAudience1 (to Urist McAudience2): "In a time before time, Dedak Storydwarf struck down Urist Legendaxe in the Fake Hills."
Urist McAudience2 (to Urist McAudience1): "That is terrific!"
Urist McAudience2 (to Urist McBard): "In a time before time, Dedak Storydwarf struck down Urist Legendaxe in the Fake Hills."
Urist McBard (to Urist McAudience2): "That is terrific!"
Urist McBard (to Urist McAudience1): "In a time before time, Dedak Storydwarf struck down Urist Legendaxe in the Fake Hills."
Ad infinitum, of course.
Post by: Inarius on January 13, 2015, 05:10:32 am
Urist McBard (to Urist McAudience1): "In a time before time, Dedak Storydwarf struck down Urist Legendaxe in the Fake Hills."
Urist McAudience1 (to Urist McBard): "That is terrific!"
Urist McAudience1 (to Urist McAudience2): "In a time before time, Dedak Storydwarf struck down Urist Legendaxe in the Fake Hills."
Urist McAudience2 (to Urist McAudience1): "That is terrific!"
Urist McAudience2 (to Urist McBard): "In a time before time, Dedak Storydwarf struck down Urist Legendaxe in the Fake Hills."
Urist McBard (to Urist McAudience2): "It was inevitable!"
Urist McBard (to Urist McAudience1): "In a time before time, Dedak Storydwarf struck down Urist Legendaxe in the Fake Hills."
Because Urist McBard already knows.
Post by: Urist_McDagger on January 13, 2015, 08:32:10 am
Post by: SupremeSandwich on January 13, 2015, 10:00:11 am
Post by: Knight Otu on January 13, 2015, 12:56:51 pm
Will recipes (when added) include non-food recipes? i.e recipes to recreate artifactsThe recipes will likely only be for consumables, and probably only for actual food rather that other things like alchemy, at least at the start. Either way, artifacts would not be among the things recipes would be used for.
Will we be able to create fixed events during world creation; things such as a specific text/book, or perhaps a song, that will then appear in the game by someone either not specified or a person of importance?It seems possible, though not particularly likely, that songs and stories get a raw format of their own, which could work like (or be part of) the descriptions raws. I wouldn't count on it for the time being though.
Post by: Manzeenan on January 13, 2015, 09:16:38 pm
Similar to necromancy
Post by: Naryar on January 14, 2015, 04:09:05 am
Post by: Tabris01 on January 14, 2015, 09:01:29 am
Post by: Zarathustra30 on January 14, 2015, 10:31:32 am
I feel like this has been asked but will there be books that grant experience to the reader? Or more aquired abilities?
Similar to necromancy
I don't think this quite answers your question, but Toady mentioned something about a knowledge system in the November FOTF reply (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.msg5844095#msg5844095), potentially going in during start scenarios, though it's really up in the air at this point.
Which brings me to a related question. How do you intend to mitigate feature creep during starting scenarios? It's beginning to sound like a magical, solve-everything release, which means it will take a very long time to implement.
Post by: Dirst on January 14, 2015, 11:12:35 am
It's related to the scenarios because your mission might be to acquire new knowledge for your civ. Right now the only civ-level knowledge is domesticating animals, but that might be expanded to learning how to work new-to-your-civ plants or ores or items. This could easily wait to a second or third release of the scenario feature.I feel like this has been asked but will there be books that grant experience to the reader? Or more aquired abilities?
Similar to necromancy
I don't think this quite answers your question, but Toady mentioned something about a knowledge system in the November FOTF reply (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.msg5844095#msg5844095), potentially going in during start scenarios, though it's really up in the air at this point.
Which brings me to a related question. How do you intend to mitigate feature creep during starting scenarios? It's beginning to sound like a magical, solve-everything release, which means it will take a very long time to implement.
If scenarios differ only in their embark resources and Mountainhome mandates, they seem relatively lightweight on gameplay. If running an Outpost is practically a different game from running a Temple, then yes it could turn into a bloat catastrophe. I have faith in Toady that he won't do the minimum, nor will he destroy the game.
Post by: neblime on January 14, 2015, 01:35:35 pm
do you have plans on how to implement multi tile creatures graphically? for example, will a bronze collosus be a bunch of Cs in the shape of a collosus, or using existing characters to make different parts look like a foot or a head or whatever?
x
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 14, 2015, 01:42:37 pm
Post by: neblime on January 14, 2015, 01:49:23 pm
Eventually I would like to see different body parts on different tiles, so dwarves would have to climb on a colossus to attack its head.well that's in the current dev list, so maybe within 10 years? :D
you make a good point with the wagons but that's a pretty easy creature to represent so I don't know if that would be the approach later
Post by: Manzeenan on January 14, 2015, 02:15:22 pm
Wagons are already in the game, so I expect they should be modelled like that, at least at first. Eventually I would like to see different body parts on different tiles, so dwarves would have to climb on a colossus to attack its head.siege engine revamps, no military is going to take on a multi tile chunk of hostile bronze lol
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 14, 2015, 02:39:20 pm
As I often say, beasts are generally too weak at the moment.
Post by: Dirst on January 14, 2015, 02:47:05 pm
A bronze colossus is supposed to be 1/4 as big as the Statue of Liberty. That means it should take up that many tiles. A bunch of dwarves with hand weapons should not give it much trouble. That is what giant, deadly contraptions and magma are for.The issue isn't so much that the militia can hack a bronze colossus until it stops moving if they have hard enough weapons. The issue is that it can scamper down a narrow staircase to get at your militia while a merchant's cart requires a 6m-wide ramp.
As I often say, beasts are generally too weak at the moment.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 14, 2015, 02:50:00 pm
Post by: BenLubar on January 14, 2015, 05:18:30 pm
Post by: Rose on January 14, 2015, 11:26:29 pm
Post by: CaptainArchmage on January 14, 2015, 11:42:19 pm
With temples are we going to have new furniture (such as, altars)? Or will that be covered by existing furniture (like tables)?
Post by: Rose on January 14, 2015, 11:49:49 pm
Post by: Fieari on January 15, 2015, 01:53:11 am
Obviously it'd happen eventually, just want to know about the timeframe. I can't imagine that there would be a command to desecrate an altar, but a tantruming dwarf might do so unthinkingly.
Post by: Naryar on January 15, 2015, 06:24:57 am
Now all of this has official justification ! Finally !
Post by: LordBaal on January 15, 2015, 06:41:37 am
I would love to have customize gods for civs, or at least something more controllable, like the Mountain God for dwarves and such.
Post by: Lielac on January 15, 2015, 08:21:21 am
Can a single temple designation be aligned to more than one deity, or would you need to make overlapping zones?
Post by: LordBaal on January 15, 2015, 08:31:36 am
Can a single temple designation be aligned to more than one deity, or would you need to make overlapping zones?Was wondering the same. If you dedicate a big temple for a single god then worshipers of that god might get a bigger happy thought praying there than say, the same temple but shared with the whole pantheon of 26 more gods which they don't worship.
Chapels to the goddess of mining right in the entrance of the mines...
Also Toady, you mention music, and music is well, noise, sound, does this means that the noise mechanics are getting an update? Would taverns be noisy? What about the music? Should we expect some changes regarding sound?
Post by: Dirst on January 15, 2015, 10:18:53 am
Temples! PRAISE ARMOK! I might actually take a break from Minecraft to build ridiculous monuments here for a change.I would expect overlapping zones, at least for an initial release. And if the overlapping rooms logic applies to zones, it would decrease the "value" of each zone. The Goddess of Death and Greed would not be pleased :)
Can a single temple designation be aligned to more than one deity, or would you need to make overlapping zones?
If you have, say, four deities, you could use four different zones that overlap at a single corner. You have a big altar thing in the overlap, and appropriate furniture in each of the dedicated areas.
There is plenty of precedent for temples to be far-and-away more elaborate than any other buildings in the area, and even in the time of kings the temples often rivaled the palaces. Toady, do you intend to leave the temple design up to the player (simple shrine to megaproject) or will the requirements increase as the number of worshipers and/or fort wealth increase?
Post by: Knight Otu on January 15, 2015, 11:41:18 am
Will the new temples in fort mode tie into desecration and curses (in the initial release)?That's extremely unlikely. As Toady said in the devlog, they're not doing much with temples yet.
There is plenty of precedent for temples to be far-and-away more elaborate than any other buildings in the area, and even in the time of kings the temples often rivaled the palaces. Toady, do you intend to leave the temple design up to the player (simple shrine to megaproject) or will the requirements increase as the number of worshipers and/or fort wealth increase?For the first release, I doubt that there'll be much, if anything, in terms of requirements beyond a meeting zone. That seems more like start scenario territory.
With the addition of temples, will religious festivals and observances ever come into play?Ever? Yes. :P Religious festivals and holy days are at least implied on the old dev page. For example:
Quote
Bloat382, MORE SPHERE LINKS FOR TEMPLES, (Future): Right now, only certain deity spheres get architecture links in their corresponding temples. There's more that can be done there, and the concept can be expanded from architecture to many other elements of the faith/temple, so that certain type of items/creatures/festivals/rituals/etc. occur in the temple.
PowerGoal82, ON KARNAK'S GOOD SIDE, (Future): It is the Holy Day of Karnak. The people gather in their customary place at night in the Baron's orchard for their prayer circle. After the prayer, the player is elevated to one of the positions within the priesthood emphasizing Karnak's association with the sun rather than one emphasizing his association with suffering
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 15, 2015, 01:04:27 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on January 15, 2015, 01:19:25 pm
Will the main version number update with the addition of taverns?It's pretty likely - Toady said that they're about halfway (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146696.msg5888264#msg5888264) to 0.41 in the "new" system (that's been in effect since 0.31.01).
Post by: CaptainArchmage on January 15, 2015, 05:22:27 pm
This might lead to some interesting events in our fortresses.
Post by: MrLupenTails on January 15, 2015, 09:23:39 pm
Post by: endlessblaze on January 15, 2015, 09:37:20 pm
Post by: Putnam on January 15, 2015, 09:57:49 pm
all things considered with multi-culture forts comeing in (starting with the tavern arc) it's probably going to be possible to at least get animal pepole in you forts, I think NPC villages and civs can already do so (I see Sasquatch recruits on the surface all the time) but I would love confirmation and details. If someone like a animal man joins or fort will we get access to there tech, like will we be able to make blow Darts?
(made less impossible to read)
Post by: endlessblaze on January 15, 2015, 10:00:45 pm
Post by: Rose on January 15, 2015, 10:01:55 pm
Post by: Putnam on January 15, 2015, 10:03:31 pm
Post by: Uronym on January 15, 2015, 10:27:48 pm
With the addition of temples will the "defile the temple" night-creature creating event now be able to happen in our own fortresses?
This might lead to some interesting events in our fortresses.
Urist McHeretic, Cheese Maker has been smitten for defiling a holy place!
Urist McHeretic, Cheese Maker has been found dead.
Urist McApostate, Miller has been smitten for defiling a holy place!
The wereskunk Urist McApostate has appeared! A skunk twisted into humanoid form. Now you will know why you fear the night.
Urist McDeathworship, Animal Caretaker prays to Thêdbish, the god of death and resurrection.
Urist McDeathworship, Animal Caretaker has received a strange tablet from Thêdbish, the god of death and resurrection.
Rakust McLegendary, Armorsmith cancels worship: interrupted by yak hair.
Post by: Rockphed on January 16, 2015, 12:14:58 am
Also, if we have people who worship a megabeast or titan in our fortress, will we be able to create a temple to said creature? If it invades, it could see the temple in its honor and either decide that it is a nice place to stick around, or just that since we worship it, it doesn't need to murder all our citizens.
Post by: nasobema on January 16, 2015, 03:39:15 am
All the things that are planned for the future are interesting enough.
But currently the development seems to proceed in a good pace.
At it becomes clear, why the changes before 40.1 have such deep impact.
Post by: Gargomaxthalus on January 18, 2015, 05:44:09 am
Temples ! Elaborate obsidian altars! Flowing rivers of blood ! Officialized magma sacrifices ! Yessss!
Now all of this has official justification ! Finally !
Vanilla dwarves will NEVER choose to engage in blood sacrifice.
Post by: Naryar on January 18, 2015, 10:51:50 am
Temples ! Elaborate obsidian altars! Flowing rivers of blood ! Officialized magma sacrifices ! Yessss!
Now all of this has official justification ! Finally !
Vanilla dwarves will NEVER choose to engage in blood sacrifice.
Even to the gods of death ?
If it isn't goblin sacrifice it will be animal sacrifice.
Post by: Lielac on January 18, 2015, 01:15:55 pm
Temples ! Elaborate obsidian altars! Flowing rivers of blood ! Officialized magma sacrifices ! Yessss!
Now all of this has official justification ! Finally !
Vanilla dwarves will NEVER choose to engage in blood sacrifice.
Even to the gods of death ?
If it isn't goblin sacrifice it will be animal sacrifice.
Mmmm, I doubt it. While the ethics don't prohibit it outright, I think the TORTURE ethics are the most closely applicable. AS_EXAMPLE, FOR_INFORMATION, FOR_FUN, and ANIMALS are all UNTHINKABLE, and I'd say ritual sacrifice is gruesome enough to fall under those for at least sapient kills. However, I'm stretching things here, so I think there will be ETHIC:RITUAL_SACRIFICE coming along sooner or later. (MAKE_TROPHY also seems applicable...)
Spoiler: The full ETHIC text for vanilla dwarves (click to show/hide)
Post by: Untelligent on January 18, 2015, 04:00:10 pm
Post by: Dirst on January 18, 2015, 04:02:22 pm
Mmmm, I doubt it. While the ethics don't prohibit it outright, I think the TORTURE ethics are the most closely applicable. AS_EXAMPLE, FOR_INFORMATION, FOR_FUN, and ANIMALS are all UNTHINKABLE, and I'd say ritual sacrifice is gruesome enough to fall under those for at least sapient kills. However, I'm stretching things here, so I think there will be ETHIC:RITUAL_SACRIFICE coming along sooner or later. (MAKE_TROPHY also seems applicable...)Spoiler: The full ETHIC text for vanilla dwarves (click to show/hide)
It depends on how gruesome the sacrifice is imagined to be. Capital punishment tends to be pretty gruesome all by itself, and vanilla dwarves are okay with that. Remember that all of the innovations in capital punishment intended to reduce the convict's suffering (starting with the guillotine and currently at lethal injection) occurred well after the timeframe for DF. They're also okay with a Fell Mood turning a random citizen into a piece of furniture.
So in short, I can see vanilla dwarves being convinced to go along with sacrifices, but only for "enemies"/"criminals" in some official sanctioned manner.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 18, 2015, 05:56:47 pm
Hammering is gruesome, but since the first blow of a hammer to the head should be instant death, it is not really torturous. Dwarves could sacrifice goblins to Armok by hammering, though I think casting into magma would be more appropriate in that case. Gods should vary in their demand for sacrifices, with some wanting none, others wanting animals and the bloodiest wanting prisoners. Dwarves could then embark on Aztec-style "flower wars" to capture prisoners for sacrifice.
Dwarven ethics never stopped horrors like restraining live goblins and slowly shooting them to death with wooden bolts, so I doubt they would get in the way of sacrifices.
Post by: Neonivek on January 19, 2015, 12:26:11 am
Crucifixion is just about the perfect execution in terms of prolonged death. With those who die of it tending to die of suffication. I could go into the science involved but suffice it to say... it was pretty bad.
Quote
Hammering is gruesome, but since the first blow of a hammer to the head should be instant death, it is not really torturous
Assuming that the goal is to strike the head.
Though to be fair if Hammering was a REAL execution method it is likely favored for being a flexible system.
Someone sentenced to two hammerings? Well you could hit their head and pretty much guarantee their death...
Or you could crush their legs... or their hands... intentionally and spare them at a high cost... One could also give people who had TONS of hammerings basically a torturous excruciating death... or just one to their head to kill them instantly.
As well surviving hammering as a justification for allowing you to live is also something that likely would be built right into the system... a trial by fire sort of deal.
It could be as cruel or as kind as the dwarves need it to be... and frankly I don't believe Dwarves are super humane... They just dislike concepts they believe are "underhanded" or "Needlessly cruel". The idea of fair play is bred into them.
Post by: Ancalagon_TB on January 19, 2015, 12:37:45 am
Post by: Neonivek on January 19, 2015, 03:45:15 am
Being Broken at the wheel may be the closest historical equivalent to a cruel hammering :/
Well that and... Shattering people's knees with a blunt instrument... was also something that was done.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 19, 2015, 05:41:44 am
How does dwarven hammering work? I never use the hammerer, since I prefer to execute tantrum risks and useless nobles by magma, but it seems a more protracted procedure than I thought. I thought that the hammerer just smashed the victim on the head until it exploded into gore, usually only once if physics make any sense.
Post by: Inarius on January 19, 2015, 07:44:48 am
Post by: LordBaal on January 19, 2015, 08:18:37 am
Post by: King_of_Baboons on January 19, 2015, 09:12:47 am
How did we pass from inns with merry songs and happy music to temples of doom and medieval torture with so much easiness and eagerness??
you can't play df without becoming an evil overlord half-way through the game because: realistic and gory health systems + freedom to do everything you want + a bunch of lunatic players = Evil !!SCIENTIFIC!! Experiments.
Post by: Dirst on January 19, 2015, 10:30:41 am
How did we pass from inns with merry songs and happy music to temples of doom and medieval torture with so much easiness and eagerness??Yes, getting hammered at a tavern does sound much more pleasant.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on January 19, 2015, 11:34:16 am
How did we pass from inns with merry songs and happy music to temples of doom and medieval torture with so much easiness and eagerness??
Sigged
What were Toady's views on torture? I know that he didn't want dwarves doing it, but is he willing to implement it at all, or does he think that torture will also make DF "that game"?
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 19, 2015, 12:58:40 pm
you can't play df without becoming an evil overlord half-way through the game because: realistic and gory health systems + freedom to do everything you want + a bunch of lunatic players = Evil !!SCIENTIFIC!! Experiments.
The health system is not realistic. When was the last time you saw a punched hand explode into gore through a gauntlet?
Torture already exists in DF adventure mode, at the hands of the player (I have read stories of players snapping all an enemy's fingers before finally putting them out of their misery days later). Fortress dwarves have also been observed doing it, even on their own kind (dwarven child care and forgotten beast poison experiments). Legal systems where confession and torture play a major part would be a good addition for some civilisations, though Toady may not want dwarves doing it; it is far easier for a lazy lawman to tear out his suspect's teeth until he confesses the crime than to do a proper investigation to be sure of getting the right culprit, and such systems were (and in some places still are) thus very popular.
Post by: thedrelle on January 19, 2015, 01:27:13 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 19, 2015, 02:25:19 pm
Post by: Putnam on January 19, 2015, 04:26:48 pm
you can't play df without becoming an evil overlord half-way through the game because: realistic and gory health systems + freedom to do everything you want + a bunch of lunatic players = Evil !!SCIENTIFIC!! Experiments.
The health system is not realistic. When was the last time you saw a punched hand explode into gore through a gauntlet?
Torture already exists in DF adventure mode, at the hands of the player (I have read stories of players snapping all an enemy's fingers before finally putting them out of their misery days later). Fortress dwarves have also been observed doing it, even on their own kind (dwarven child care and forgotten beast poison experiments). Legal systems where confession and torture play a major part would be a good addition for some civilisations, though Toady may not want dwarves doing it; it is far easier for a lazy lawman to tear out his suspect's teeth until he confesses the crime than to do a proper investigation to be sure of getting the right culprit, and such systems were (and in some places still are) thus very popular.
Player stuff doesn't count at all.
What were Toady's views on torture? I know that he didn't want dwarves doing it, but is he willing to implement it at all, or does he think that torture will also make DF "that game"?
Goblins certainly do some awful stuff.
Post by: MrLupenTails on January 19, 2015, 04:30:00 pm
Edit: When I asked the last two questions, I was referring to world generation scenarios. It would suck if all religions seemed the same for each race.
Post by: Putnam on January 19, 2015, 04:32:14 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 19, 2015, 05:56:09 pm
Post by: Dirst on January 19, 2015, 06:00:48 pm
It will not show up in game at first, since temples are currently barely developed, but it makes sense that some religions are more violent than others. That does not necessarily mean that the god is associated with a more violent thing; gods of the sun and fertility also received sacrifices."Our god has spoken. He demands that we establish an order of knights to enforce his will upon our plane. And he demands a shrubbery."
Post by: Mr S on January 20, 2015, 09:07:59 am
Post by: thedrelle on January 20, 2015, 12:55:48 pm
Post by: King_of_Baboons on January 20, 2015, 02:07:33 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 20, 2015, 03:39:14 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 20, 2015, 10:43:27 pm
Randomly generated plays would be a wonderful addition to the DF world. Surrealism would come centuries early.
Narrator: "In the year 1066, Urist McSoldier killed a creature composed of ash by bashing it in the foot with a pair of pants, but the creature removed Urist's heart, liver, and guts first."
Actor: *Has impromptu surgery onstage, or imitates it if he has had the procedure already*
And then the narrator drinks the actor's blood until the actor dies.
Post by: Neonivek on January 21, 2015, 04:48:44 am
and guiltishly doing two
Will religions be fleshed out in terms of how their tenants, outside spheres and the individual gods, work? Such as if they allow multiple god worship, accept new gods to the pantheon, and what they consider to be profane? I guess I don't really need a specific answer I guess what I mean is: Is there going to be more to religions outside the individual gods?
Oddly enough that is what I am really interested in because one of the things I found interested was the religion dynamics within the game. For example some wars or disagreements being made because of the worship of deities often within the same religion (Oddly often with gods of death... which makes sense 'fictional world' wise but not 'world history' wise) and I was just like "Is that god the evil god of this pantheon? or are they just fighting over godly supremacy".
Post by: Inarius on January 21, 2015, 05:03:45 am
Post by: reality.auditor on January 21, 2015, 07:36:01 am
He clearly said he added temples only because he did not want only one entry on list. I am surprised dwarves even do anything at all. Probably because Toady has to code "go to large location and perform some activity resulting in some thought" for taverns anyway.
So don't expect religion being fleshed out in any capacity in near future. In this context, I find all these questions about religion premature.
Post by: LordBaal on January 21, 2015, 07:45:24 am
Post by: Dirst on January 21, 2015, 10:33:26 am
So don't expect religion being fleshed out in any capacity in near future. In this context, I find all these questions about religion premature.It's not the Near Future of the Fortress thread :) Toady One has created a fantastic game that sparks a lot of interest, and some people are curious about what he sees as the long-term goals of the project.
Post by: King_of_Baboons on January 21, 2015, 10:44:48 am
Post by: LordBaal on January 21, 2015, 11:03:02 am
Post by: Knight Otu on January 21, 2015, 11:13:57 am
Does the temples being fully developed suggest a possible use for the gods and more dynamics between the religions? Or when finished just be focused on individual temples and inside fortress dynamics?
and guiltishly doing two
Will religions be fleshed out in terms of how their tenants, outside spheres and the individual gods, work? Such as if they allow multiple god worship, accept new gods to the pantheon, and what they consider to be profane? I guess I don't really need a specific answer I guess what I mean is: Is there going to be more to religions outside the individual gods?
That's arguably starting scenario territory, or rather, a small part of the huge "framework for starting scenarios" territory (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html):
Quote
Framework
Expand framework of law, custom, rights, property and status as needed to provide a variety of scenarios
Foundation of laws, both natural and supernatural
Explicit standing of different citizens vs. civilization authorities
Possible expansion of religious and family concepts to provide sufficient scenarios
Are taverns going to be re-sized?Because the current taverns are so tiny that I doubt someone could trow a party there.Likely not in this release, but in the ill-fated short term release list, tavern were linked with large manors for that reason, to be able to get large structures where needed (temples would then also get larger, as I recall). So, eventually it should happen.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 21, 2015, 11:39:39 am
Narrator: "In the year 1066, Urist McSoldier killed a creature composed of ash by bashing it in the foot with a pair of pants, but the creature removed Urist's heart, liver, and guts first."
Actor: *Has impromptu surgery onstage, or imitates it if he has had the procedure already*
And then the narrator drinks the actor's blood until the actor dies.
If the narrator was a vampire, yes.
Post by: therahedwig on January 22, 2015, 05:59:42 am
Quote
22-01-15 01:24
(Toady One) Continuing to go through stuff -- breaks and generic parties are gone, needs are in, and people go to hang out at taverns and temples according to their needs. There are simple activities set up, and the next project is to flesh those out with randomized stuffs so that we can move on to visitors.
Post by: Knight Otu on January 22, 2015, 06:02:19 am
Post by: Fieari on January 22, 2015, 06:35:37 am
Post by: Naryar on January 22, 2015, 08:57:54 am
Well, not exactly gone, but replaced by something more interesting.
Also you will be able to make more rooms without random parties and stuff. Which is good.
Post by: LordBaal on January 22, 2015, 09:17:33 am
Post by: smjjames on January 22, 2015, 09:34:46 am
Also:
Will (or do) stringed instruments have string that is actually made of, well, string? Whether it's catgut (actually sheepgut, although knowing dwarves, it actually COULD be from cats) or metal string. I'm just wondering this because I find a rock harp to be impossible to play.
Oh and:
ALSO!
Will artifact instruments give really high quality thoughts to other dwarves? I imagine that masterwork quality instruments will give better quality thoughts than fine quality. Though the dwarfs own instrument skill would come into play, after all, a dabbling music player could play an artifact flute badly.
thought branching off of that last one:
EDIT!!!
Will they also sing along to the music? You know, like drinking songs, or just folksy songs, or even bard songs.
Sorry for that string of questions there, I had one thought after another there.
Post by: Dirst on January 22, 2015, 10:37:52 am
I suspect that songs would have a description of style and contents, similar to books. Instrumental would be a style I suppose.
Having multiple dwarves get up and play together would be awesome, and could be part of a general mechanism on cooperation on big tasks. There are two ways to improve a task with multiple participants: improve the quality or shorten the time. Shortening the time to perform a song doesn't make much sense (unless you are Alvin and the Chipmunks), so this is a way to ease into one cooperation metric without complicating the interface.
Given that many elements of the tavern arc seem ripe for re-use elsewhere in the game, how much planning and future-proofing do you attempt when adding new features into the game?
Post by: Manzeenan on January 22, 2015, 12:58:54 pm
Post by: Vattic on January 22, 2015, 06:53:48 pm
Will better musicians/instrument quality reduce breaks or "needs"? (whatever the new break system is)I'd imagine it'll give a mood boost at least.
Will badly performed music give a negative mood beyond being woken up by it?
Post by: golemgunk on January 22, 2015, 07:35:21 pm
Quote
I'd imagine it'll give a mood boost at least.Will badly performed music give a negative mood beyond being woken up by it?
Urist was annoyed after being woken up. Urist was enraged by awful music.
Speaking of which, Will dwarves eventually have different tastes in music or other arts?
If an unskilled musician plays a piece, those with more talent might hear all the things wrong with the performance, but a casual observer who doesn't know better might have no problem with it. Maybe a sculptor who really likes making statues of ugly monsters and cockroaches might still offend others with his work even if they're masterfully crafted.
Post by: Mopsy on January 22, 2015, 07:50:56 pm
It's not the Near Future of the Fortress thread :) Toady One has created a fantastic game that sparks a lot of interest, and some people are curious about what he sees as the long-term goals of the project.
The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments. Specific bugs should be reported on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/), and specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0). Questions and comments about the development page or DF development somewhat more broadly work here, though any contentious topics that lead to derails are discouraged -- there are threads for those too.
If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here.
Emphasis mine. My interpretation of these guidelines is that while forward-looking questions of a "What do you think about X?" or "Will you ever implement Y?" nature are allowed, they are not encouraged. Like Toady writes in the quoted post, answering all those questions takes time and when they aren't related to current development he usually won't have much to tell us. In the past, he has preferred to deal with more speculative matters in DF Talks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=44597.0). I believe that it's better to direct curious people to the thread I just linked than to tell them to "Just ask away about whatever! We all have something we'd like to try and fast-track an answer to by posting it in the wrong thread!".
Edit: To clarify, nobody should post their questions directly in the thread I linked to. The first post in the thread gives instructions for emailing questions to Toady. If you want to know more about what may happen in DF in the distant future, follow those instructions and be patient.
Post by: RLPudding on January 23, 2015, 04:09:31 pm
I think it would be very interesting to just open a pub in fortress mode and sell home-grown/made booze and food
Post by: Knight Otu on January 23, 2015, 04:33:25 pm
Post by: Putnam on January 23, 2015, 04:41:17 pm
Damn am I excited for this, mostly because of the multi-racial fortress thing. I wonder if troll bouncers are possible? Blind cave ogre bouncers? Ettins?
Post by: Dirst on January 23, 2015, 04:50:02 pm
Establishing a roadside inn is one of the starting scenarios Toady is looking at for that section of the dev plans. This would probably involve fewer migrants (you'd likely have employees and people looking for jobs), no sieges, trouble with patrons, especially bandit-y ones, and so on.With an unassuming hatch in the back room that open to a sprawling underground fortress...
Post by: Rose on January 23, 2015, 10:28:45 pm
Post by: flabort on January 24, 2015, 12:15:59 am
As far as room-groupings such as the mayorial suite, will these be added in with the temples/taverns, or will it wait until a subsequent release?
Will one of the new zones eventually replace the Trade Depot?
Post by: Knight Otu on January 24, 2015, 07:32:35 am
With multi-racial forts being worked on, will other races' unique abilities come into play? For example, elves growing wood?Only to the extent that they already exist codewise, I'm sure. Toady won't take that much of a detour to actually add elves being able to make trees grow the grown wood items they sell, for example.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 24, 2015, 07:57:59 am
Post by: LordBaal on January 24, 2015, 08:13:30 am
Post by: Knight Otu on January 24, 2015, 09:35:08 am
Why? It is a necessary mechanic for elves to work, and certainly if elves will ever be playable, which I am in favour of.Exactly. It's important for elves to work for when they become playable. Not so much for dwarves who hire elves. Besides, what exactly elves do with their trees is an unresolved question at the moment, and will likely depend on the world's metaphysics. Right now, it would just be a distraction.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 24, 2015, 10:15:06 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on January 24, 2015, 11:42:06 am
Post by: KillerClowns on January 24, 2015, 02:09:33 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Manzeenan on January 24, 2015, 05:27:01 pm
Will there be barfights that increase combat skills
Post by: MrWiggles on January 24, 2015, 09:06:13 pm
I swear if there are barfights broken noses better start being able to heal.Most of the skills in DF are gained through use. So the presumable answer, is yes. As they'll be employed.
Will there be barfights that increase combat skillsand train medical dwarves?
Post by: BenLubar on January 25, 2015, 12:48:15 am
Post by: Vattic on January 25, 2015, 01:08:59 am
Will there be any leisure activities that consume the fort's supplies? For example, a dwarf might have knitting as a hobby and use up thread, or have a shell collection and take ownership of some of the shells in the stockpile.They used to do something like this before the economy was turned off pending a recode. Dwarves would buy items they liked from shops. It meant some dwarves would fill their rooms with scepters or similar.
Post by: Baffler on January 25, 2015, 02:17:34 am
But an elf in a dwarf fortress would still function like an elf in an elf fortress. If elves are to become permanent residents in dwarf fortresses, it will become theoretically possible to make a fort of nothing but elves if the starting dwarves die, so players can play as elves anyway. That means full functionality must exist for elves, else players doing this will be unable to get wood without resorting to cheap penis jokes.
Not quite, because an elf that is part of a Dwarven entity has Dwarven ethics, and presumably has access to the same technology and techniques. An elf (probably) doesn't know how to grow wood from birth, and even if they did Dwarven culture would likely view this ability as useless outside of a few niche applications.
Post by: Rose on January 25, 2015, 03:24:34 am
Post by: LordBaal on January 25, 2015, 03:58:09 am
Post by: Knight Otu on January 25, 2015, 05:50:08 am
Are there plans to expand the current list of musical instruments? It's pretty limited at one percussion, one string, and three wind instruments.I think the new devlog indirectly answers this question now - Toady mentioned that there would be four instrument skills, versus the three types of instrument already in the game. So presumably, there'll be at least one keyboard instrument. Should be interesting, considering most could count as furniture that has to be built.
Post by: therahedwig on January 25, 2015, 07:31:10 am
Dwarven Pipe Organ Mega Projects Go.Are there plans to expand the current list of musical instruments? It's pretty limited at one percussion, one string, and three wind instruments.I think the new devlog indirectly answers this question now - Toady mentioned that there would be four instrument skills, versus the three types of instrument already in the game. So presumably, there'll be at least one keyboard instrument. Should be interesting, considering most could count as furniture that has to be built.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 25, 2015, 07:34:33 am
Not quite, because an elf that is part of a Dwarven entity has Dwarven ethics, and presumably has access to the same technology and techniques. An elf (probably) doesn't know how to grow wood from birth, and even if they did Dwarven culture would likely view this ability as useless outside of a few niche applications.
Not if the elf came in as an adult migrant with existing skills and ethics. These elves might then raise their children as elves as well, leaving possibility for cultural intolerance, racism, inquisition and so on.
Post by: Naryar on January 25, 2015, 07:55:10 am
Dwarven Pipe Organ Mega Projects Go.Are there plans to expand the current list of musical instruments? It's pretty limited at one percussion, one string, and three wind instruments.I think the new devlog indirectly answers this question now - Toady mentioned that there would be four instrument skills, versus the three types of instrument already in the game. So presumably, there'll be at least one keyboard instrument. Should be interesting, considering most could count as furniture that has to be built.
Yeah. They'l be steam-powered as well - put a boiler room on the bottom of the pipe organ, fill it with water, put a magma man inside it (Or a bin with !!lignite!! inside), enjoy.
Post by: smjjames on January 25, 2015, 08:28:51 am
Also, bouncing off the current devlog:
Could tavern visitors potentially introduce other forms of poetry/music/dance with x chance of it catching on or someone getting inspired by it?
Also, will the tavern visitors occasionally pick up an instrument (assuming you have the one they want) and start playing or do their own singing or poetry? Would be great to see those from cultures besides that of our dwarves culture.
Are there plans to expand the current list of musical instruments? It's pretty limited at one percussion, one string, and three wind instruments.I think the new devlog indirectly answers this question now - Toady mentioned that there would be four instrument skills, versus the three types of instrument already in the game. So presumably, there'll be at least one keyboard instrument. Should be interesting, considering most could count as furniture that has to be built.
He also talks about stats and even a generator for the instruments, so yes, that pretty much got answered.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 25, 2015, 09:08:35 am
Quote
He also talks about stats and even a generator for the instruments, so yes, that pretty much got answered.
ChurnDweller the Luxurious Beard of Loathing. This is a monstrous construction twisted into the form of a wind instrument. It menaces with spikes of bituminous coal. Beware it's mournful wail! Now you will know why you fear the nighttime revelry!
Post by: Witty on January 25, 2015, 10:28:33 am
Will artifact instruments have any unique quality or effect when played?
Post by: Knight Otu on January 25, 2015, 11:36:12 am
He also talks about stats and even a generator for the instruments, so yes, that pretty much got answered.Huh. I guess it could be an instrument generator. I took it that the music generator would instead be informed by the instrument stats in the civilization.
Post by: Pseudopuppet on January 25, 2015, 04:47:49 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on January 25, 2015, 05:19:47 pm
Does the new entertainment stuff apply to adventurers? Will I be able to play as a bard soon?It might not happen in the first release (then again, it might), but if it doesn't, it should happen soon enough thereafter. Toady seems determined to manage the tavern stuff in two or three releases (I had predicted at least four releases), so either way you should get to play a bard relatively soon.
Post by: Cobbler89 on January 25, 2015, 08:03:31 pm
Quote from: Toady (devlog)
There will be both knowledge and skill-based components to this -- so you can't compose a poem of a variety you aren't familiar with, no matter how good you are, but once you learn the rules, the quality will depend on your skills/atts.By what process will knowledge of poetic forms be acquired? Will skill affect how quickly a character picks it up?
Post by: palu on January 25, 2015, 10:20:33 pm
Post by: smjjames on January 26, 2015, 12:40:37 am
Will we also be getting combat styles and per-weapon skills/attributes, similar to instruments?
He literally says that it's something that he and Zach had planned. We'll probably get those in another development session when he is looking into combat stuff, which he isn't atm.
Here's a question that is somewhat less dev related and more fun:
Of the poem varieties/styles/forms that you're adding, what's your favorite?
Post by: Align on January 26, 2015, 05:04:14 am
Does the new need system that replaced breaks utilize zoos, statue gardens, and similar ilk at all? Or will those need to wait for their own new zones and associated needs? Have you considered modable zones with modable needs?I would expect all those existing zones to still be used for Idle dwarves, and those who are just filling a need to socialise without drinking or singing.
Do dubious believers have lower spiritual needs (less breaks for prayer or whatever they do)?
How will dwarves fulfil their needs when there's no appropriate zone? Prayer could be done wherever I suppose, but socialising or merrymaking seems like they'd need some sort of organization. Or do they just get increasingly intense bad thoughts?
Post by: Knight Otu on January 26, 2015, 08:53:46 am
Toady twittered that it is an instrument generator.He also talks about stats and even a generator for the instruments, so yes, that pretty much got answered.Huh. I guess it could be an instrument generator. I took it that the music generator would instead be informed by the instrument stats in the civilization.
Does the generator try to generate each style of instrument for each entity, or are there some ways to control the output if we don't want, for example, wind instruments for a given entity?
Post by: cephalo on January 26, 2015, 11:59:08 am
I suppose that randomly genned instruments will require randomly generated skills. Sounds ugly.
Post by: Footkerchief on January 26, 2015, 12:10:11 pm
I'm a bit concerned by 'skill-like' stats for instruments. The shear number of skills in this game, and the complex interactions between them, are one of the things that puts a fairly large burden on the player, making 3rd party tools like Therapist a necessity for many. If there isn't an overhaul of the skill system planned, I would just go with ordinary skills for each instrument. I don't think we need 'skill-like' anything.
In the short term, it's only a necessity insofar as it's also a necessity to optimize dwarves' roles and have a perfect fortress. In the long term, there'll be more autonomy (e.g. work crews) and less reliance on micromanaging.
Post by: Baffler on January 26, 2015, 12:41:22 pm
Post by: Dirst on January 26, 2015, 12:51:02 pm
Do dubious believers have lower spiritual needs (less breaks for prayer or whatever they do)?My guess is that a dwarf will still want about the same amount of time off, they'll just apportion that according to what is important to them.
How will dwarves fulfil their needs when there's no appropriate zone? Prayer could be done wherever I suppose, but socialising or merrymaking seems like they'd need some sort of organization. Or do they just get increasingly intense bad thoughts?
And merrymaking does not require an organized party. It's just that random merrymaking in the workshop parts of the fortress could lead to stress for the more dutiful citizens. "Urist, this is neither the time nor the place... No, seriously, stop it now... Urist, have you ever heard of a Fell Mood?"
Post by: crapabear on January 26, 2015, 01:31:52 pm
Post by: Putnam on January 26, 2015, 02:23:08 pm
I'm a bit concerned by 'skill-like' stats for instruments. The shear number of skills in this game, and the complex interactions between them, are one of the things that puts a fairly large burden on the player, making 3rd party tools like Therapist a necessity for many. If there isn't an overhaul of the skill system planned, I would just go with ordinary skills for each instrument. I don't think we need 'skill-like' anything.
I suppose that randomly genned instruments will require randomly generated skills. Sounds ugly.
No, that would be professions. Skills aren't quite so bad.
Post by: Uronym on January 26, 2015, 10:20:23 pm
But some of the skills we have right now, I really cannot understand...
Gelding? Really?
Crutch Walking? I've never seen someone go exceptionally fast with crutches. Is that a Paralympic event?
Lye, Potash and Soap Making seem strangely specific as well. As I understood it these were just basic tasks rural farmers did.
Milker? Is that the skill of not getting kicked? What effect does this one even have?
Pump Operator? Do you ever get better at turning the screw/cranking/whatever?
Others seem to be awkwardly categorized. For instance, what exactly is different between a mason and a stonecrafter? Or a bowyer and a carpenter? And then there are the social skills. I really don't think it works that way in real life... Talking with your friends for a few days won't necessarily make you a Legendary Comedian or a Great Liar... or is this the secret?
I assume that at some point there will be a rewrite of this, as there will be a rewrite of many things, this being alpha and all. I hope it has less skills, too.
Post by: Putnam on January 26, 2015, 10:23:55 pm
For instance, what exactly is different between a mason and a stonecrafter? Or a bowyer and a carpenter?
I can play Dwarf Fortress; thus, I can win national Smash Brothers tournaments. They're both just video games, right?
I can play the guitar fairly well; therefore, I can play the violin fairly well. They're both just string instruments, right?
Post by: Uronym on January 26, 2015, 10:26:44 pm
I can play Dwarf Fortress; thus, I can win national Smash Brothers tournaments. They're both just video games, right?
I can play the guitar fairly well; therefore, I can play the violin fairly well. They're both just string instruments, right?
Then we ought to have a throne-making mason skill, a table-making mason skill, a cabinet-making mason skill, a millstone-making mason skill, etc., as well as copies of all of those skills for every single material, including different varieties of stones, such as harder rocks and softer rocks (gypsum vs granite, for instance), and also different varieties of wood, and perhaps even a skill for every single alloy, right?
Post by: Mr S on January 26, 2015, 10:30:43 pm
Case in point. A person would certainly take their dog to the vet to be neutered (gelding), but to the groomer to get a trim (shearing, animal caretaking, et al).
Edit: I see what you did there. And indeed there are also real life goldsmiths, silversmiths, pewtersmiths, coopers, warrens, cobblers, ad neaseum. And in future we will likely see Dorfs differentiating their trade based on their material preferences, skills, economic factors, etc. I'd hardly say that development of the game is at a point where narrowing options is in order.
Post by: Putnam on January 26, 2015, 10:33:10 pm
I can play Dwarf Fortress; thus, I can win national Smash Brothers tournaments. They're both just video games, right?
I can play the guitar fairly well; therefore, I can play the violin fairly well. They're both just string instruments, right?
Then we ought to have a throne-making mason skill, a table-making mason skill, a cabinet-making mason skill, a millstone-making mason skill, etc., as well as copies of all of those skills for every single material, including different varieties of stones, such as harder rocks and softer rocks (gypsum vs granite, for instance), and also different varieties of wood, and perhaps even a skill for every single alloy, right?
I see nothing wrong with those being knowledge and/or subskills, really. Great mason who knows how to make all types of furniture is given talc where they're not familiar with it and make a crappy table, once, then (due to being great) quickly picks up on the skill.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on January 26, 2015, 10:42:16 pm
Well that would just be ridiculous complexity. Plus it would mean legendary granite chair makers would have absolutely no ability to make gypsum tables which is just absurd. Then that would increase memory usage by making an incredibly large amount of things tracked by each dwarf. Also it would mess with modding support. You can't make new skills, but if the skills are limited to gabbro chair maker then you have the gabbro chair making skill increased by making cheese chairs because the system wouldn't be good for that. Now it might seem like I'm missing the point, but if you ask anybody who's knowledgeable on the subject they'd say that making crossbows is very different from making chairs, but chairs and tables are pretty similar. It's even different from a gameplay perspective, crafters make trade goods, and masons or carpenters whatever make furniture. The downsides of this significant realism increase is: a few people get confused when they tell their mason to make stone crafts. Then I suppose all the people complaining about "OH MY GOSH TWO SKILLS FOR WORKING WITH STONES THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR ME" could be considered a downside.I can play Dwarf Fortress; thus, I can win national Smash Brothers tournaments. They're both just video games, right?
I can play the guitar fairly well; therefore, I can play the violin fairly well. They're both just string instruments, right?
Then we ought to have a throne-making mason skill, a table-making mason skill, a cabinet-making mason skill, a millstone-making mason skill, etc., as well as copies of all of those skills for every single material, including different varieties of stones, such as harder rocks and softer rocks (gypsum vs granite, for instance), and also different varieties of wood, and perhaps even a skill for every single alloy, right?
Post by: King Mir on January 26, 2015, 11:31:07 pm
Post by: cephalo on January 27, 2015, 09:51:17 am
I think a better model than having separate skills for stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, would be to use the same model as the fighting and archer skill. That is, you add another skill "stone working" that will help the labors of stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, in addition to the existing skills. And there's doesn't need to be a strict hierarchy, just two skills associated with one labor. So for example you could have wood crafting share a skill with bone carving, and another skill with wood cutting, but wood cutting would not help with bone carving.Maybe the whole skill system could use some cleaning up. That doesn't sound too hard. Some kind of soft-hierarchical system like King Mir suggested above across the board. Any product that has no quality levels should fall under some umbrella skill. All farmers can milk a cow, a yeti, whatever.
Post by: LordBaal on January 27, 2015, 10:53:17 am
Thing is, most of those things do require skills. In the case of milking you can take a lot longer or even get injuried (or end up dead) if you dont know what you are doing. However since tamed animals are 100safe and docile in the game you dont get to see that.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 27, 2015, 11:54:49 am
Post by: Align on January 27, 2015, 12:03:45 pm
Post by: Uronym on January 27, 2015, 01:18:48 pm
Do you think that the current skill system is a bit "gamey"? It is hard to tell how it works, exactly, but, for instance, a Legendary Miner can mine something like 15× faster than an unskilled miner. Is it just a multiplier placed on the time/quality for most jobs? Do you think it is reasonable as it is? What to you envision in its place, if anything?
I am not a Miner, or a Milker, or a Mason, but to me, the skill differences seem a bit extreme. In the case of Milker, or other non-quality skills generally, perhaps it would make more sense if a highly skilled worker simply failed less often, instead of performing the job 15× faster. Or maybe it would be better to not have skills, but something more simple: you either know it or you don't.
Urist knows how to milk a cow. (from father Rakust)
Urist knows how to make hardwood furniture. (from personal experience)
Urist does not know how to construct metal mechanisms.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 27, 2015, 02:06:49 pm
I think I'd prefer if that degree of realism waited until the game lets dwarves try and learn without necessarily doing, like by observation of others, or planning carefully.
Learning milking without doing it is almost impossible. Practical experience is necessary. Watching alone should not increase skill past novice, though I would like to see demonstrations like those for combat with other skills. Dwarven children should also be able to be apprenticed and educated.
Post by: Sizik on January 27, 2015, 02:57:48 pm
(starting to get suggestiony, but...)I think a better model than having separate skills for stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, would be to use the same model as the fighting and archer skill. That is, you add another skill "stone working" that will help the labors of stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, in addition to the existing skills. And there's doesn't need to be a strict hierarchy, just two skills associated with one labor. So for example you could have wood crafting share a skill with bone carving, and another skill with wood cutting, but wood cutting would not help with bone carving.Maybe the whole skill system could use some cleaning up. That doesn't sound too hard. Some kind of soft-hierarchical system like King Mir suggested above across the board. Any product that has no quality levels should fall under some umbrella skill. All farmers can milk a cow, a yeti, whatever.
I think having a (non-random) procedurally-generated skill tree would be a good extension of this, with certain broad categories (i.e. the skills/labors we have now) pre-set. As an example, say Urist is assigned to be an armorer, and he makes a copper gauntlet. Before he makes it, he has some existing experience in the armorsmith skill. Afterwards, he gets experience in the following skills:
- Copper gauntlet making
- Gauntlet making
- Copper armor making
- Copper item making
- Metal gauntlet making
- Metal Armor making
- Armor making
- Metal item making
- Forge use
Post by: smjjames on January 27, 2015, 03:18:11 pm
Post by: Sizik on January 27, 2015, 03:23:34 pm
Post by: cephalo on January 27, 2015, 05:14:22 pm
Oh yeah? I bet you to milk a cow.
Thing is, most of those things do require skills. In the case of milking you can take a lot longer or even get injuried (or end up dead) if you dont know what you are doing. However since tamed animals are 100safe and docile in the game you dont get to see that.
In game terms, there is none of that though. If there were, or if the milk was different somehow according to skill, then it's worthy of the player's attention. Otherwise, just lump it in to some general skill.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 27, 2015, 06:01:37 pm
In game terms, there is none of that though. If there were, or if the milk was different somehow according to skill, then it's worthy of the player's attention. Otherwise, just lump it in to some general skill.
Livestock animals are far too tame in a game where carp were once dreaded. Farming in DF now is so easy it can be barely described as such.
Post by: King Mir on January 27, 2015, 07:45:11 pm
Really what needs to happen is a decoupling of skills and labor, but still keeping an interface that shows what skills go with what labors.
Another problem is that many skill shouldn't really go above "proficient". You can't really be a legendary crutch walker, or furnace operator, but some skill is involved.
Post by: Putnam on January 27, 2015, 07:59:19 pm
Post by: Magnus on January 28, 2015, 02:58:24 am
Currently they display On Break when searching for victims, but according to the devlog the On Break status is being replaced in favor of tavern visits... will a vampire respect this even though it doesn't drink? If someone displays "Going to Tavern" while heading to the bedrooms it's pretty much a dead giveaway of vampirism... Any thoughts?
And I know it might be an intended feature, but I still want to ask, is vampire alcoholism going to be looked into?
It seems strange to me that a being who killed thousands before coming to your fortress should be reduced to a shambling wreck after a couple of years there. Is it possible to only have them display that they need alcohol in the thoughts page, but not actually have them affected by withdrawal?
Post by: LordBaal on January 28, 2015, 08:40:53 am
Post by: cephalo on January 28, 2015, 09:30:28 am
And you can milk a cow everyday since you are born, but that doesn't make you a tad good in gelding by itself.
That maybe true, but don't let real life get in the way of the game. Even the mighty Dwarf Fortress doesn't simulate everything and has plenty of abstraction. Knowing someones milking or gelding skill is just not useful to the player. If a skill has no current impact on the course of events, leave the player out of it entirely, at least until something changes and it begins to matter.
I suppose you can have the opinion that basic farming chores should be more difficult, but modeling that in a way that is fun is not a small undertaking. Given the limited resources available, for my part I would like to see the game move forward in other ways.
Post by: LordBaal on January 28, 2015, 10:01:26 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 28, 2015, 10:53:10 am
That maybe true, but don't let real life get in the way of the game. Even the mighty Dwarf Fortress doesn't simulate everything and has plenty of abstraction. Knowing someones milking or gelding skill is just not useful to the player. If a skill has no current impact on the course of events, leave the player out of it entirely, at least until something changes and it begins to matter.
I suppose you can have the opinion that basic farming chores should be more difficult, but modeling that in a way that is fun is not a small undertaking. Given the limited resources available, for my part I would like to see the game move forward in other ways.
Farming chores are not very basic, and farming is not easy, especially with DF primitive levels of technology. Toady has just made it piss easy for now while he works on other things, but I am fairly sure that he will eventually come to it. It seems a strange double standard that players would not mind embarking and all being killed instantly by undead, but would object to DF farming actually approaching real farming in difficulty for the dwarves.
Post by: Manzeenan on January 29, 2015, 12:23:54 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 29, 2015, 04:14:13 am
Post by: Align on January 29, 2015, 04:30:30 am
Post by: Baffler on January 30, 2015, 07:42:50 pm
Post by: Zarathustra30 on January 30, 2015, 08:20:13 pm
However, the 2015-01-24 devlog (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/#2015-01-24) suggests that knowledge will be binary, meaning there is no "amount" of knowledge, but whether you know it or you don't. I wonder if this will be merely for artforms or be expanded to all reactions.
Post by: Toady One on January 30, 2015, 11:19:05 pm
Quote from: GreenScape
Have you switched to c++11/14? How much did it make a coding easier?
I don't know about the 14 one, but if I remember, 11 had the auto keyword, which I thought was very useful. I didn't find anything to do with the other 11 features that I recall, like the lambda stuff.
Quote from: CaptainArchmage
How do invaders find their way to a fort now, do they have to path over other sites to get to the fort?
They walk over the land on a path avoiding water, but it doesn't concern itself with other sites at this point. Handling the resulting mess is a time-sink of army stuff or other diplomatic permissiony stuff that just wasn't on the table while I was trying to get them to go from A to B. Proper army stuff is still basically not done in almost all ways.
Quote from: k33n
What techniques do you use to help you maintain such a large and sprawling codebase?
I think it's something I just became better at, compared to what I used to be doing. Try to name variables sensibly, comment carefully where you know you'll need it in a year, know why past projects have failed and watch out for those problems, try to keep frameworks general, think about the future, when there are bugs try to prevent similar things from cropping up later, etc. That's all an ideal to aspire to, anyway. I don't have particular tools, though I mess around with my notes in various forms.
Quote
Quote from: Novel Scoopshave you thought about updating the effects of sobriety?Quote from: NaryarWith the tavern update, will some of the more immoderate dwarves will actually become drunk, with different degrees of drunkenness (I suppose it would be shown in the Wounds screen as Tipsy, Drunk, Dead Drunk, etc., like Stunned and the other status effects), and cause drunken shenanigans all over your fort ?
Yeah, we've thought about it for this release. It'll be a challenge to see if it can work with the constant drinking of the dwarves, or if that makes the game too much like pinball. We'll probably have more to say later.
Quote from: Darkweave
I've really missed the DFTalk frequency we had a few years ago. Are there any plans to get back to a more regular schedule with those? If not is that more because of scheduling conflicts or a lack of topics to discuss?
I was listening to some of the older DFTalks and was particularly interested in the game vs simulation discussions. What parts of the game do you currently feel are the worst offenders in terms of being way too gamey or way too simulationey? Are there any parts of the game for which you think you got the balance almost spot on?
It's a mix of all that. We had trouble scheduling and we didn't have topics which compounded those problems I think, and now it has been long enough that it's hard to jumpstart it. There was that emergency episode that was cobbled together, and that's the sort of future I see for it at this point.
I never feel like I'm done with anything, so it's hard to give a positive evaluation to any of the balance. The start scenario framework stuff is an injection of simulation into what I think is the gamey relationship of the fort to the parent civ, in part. Artifacts are also gamey and we're addressing that soon too, partially. I'm sure the list goes on and on there. On the other side, the weather simulation was done too early I think -- it could be much better, simulation-wise, but even as it stands, it grinds too much for such a tangential contribution to the game. I might be happy that it is there when I get back to it, but it might also be rooted out when that happens. Weather's kind of the easy target... I'm sure I've gone too deep down other rabbit holes as well. Sometimes the data isn't kept up. I haven't been good with material values or animal differentiation.
Quote from: Darkweave
As it stands right now we can embark on the opposite side of the world to the rest of our civilization. Presumably this could mean very long travel times when interacting with existing hill and deep dwarves especially when trying to set up armies or come to their aid? It also wouldn't make much sense for hillocks half-way across the world to be under the control of our barony when other dwarf baronies are already much closer. Will we eventually have dwarves founding hillocks in the vicinity of our own fortresses when we embark or as our fortress grows more powerful? If so do you envision this as something we control, perhaps sending some of our own citizens to found a new hillock, or will it be something the parent civilization does in the background? What if our surroundings are unsuitable for hillocks eg terrifying glaciers surrounded by goblin pits? What if our parent civ is dead(-ish)?
Right now, there are no migrants actually traveling to the fortress and the fort has no associated hill/deep dwarves. When we get to the start scenario hill dwarves on the dev page, everything will be local (except the stuff that shouldn't be). I'm not sure exactly what control you're going to have -- it'll likely be a key part of the embark setup that you select. The location and state of the parent civ will matter more than they do now.
Quote from: flabort
What reasons did the necromancers have for attacking their zombies? Is it related to the necro siege I got where all the sieging zombies left immediately?
Nah, it was just the "evil dead are bad" trigger the living get against the undead. There was something that stopped necromancers from having that before, but it was lost somewhere. They always started the fights, and it's a current failing of the system that the undead defend themselves against attackers that aren't normally their targets, so the necromancers generally lost.
Quote
Quote from: endlessblazeDoes this mean we will be able to have elves and goblins in our forts soon?Quote from: Eric BlankWith multi-species forts, will intelligent pets/non-civilized animal-men or whatever (gorlaks!) be eligible for citizenship, or will it only be possible for other already civilized species to become citizens for now?
When a creature signs on to the fortress roster, will you have them keep the ethics and values of their homeland or immediately adopt all of the customs of their adoptive country, or some average inbetween?
Yeah, there'll be various critters. What happens at the fringes I'm not quite sure yet -- we'd like the occasional animal person or gorlak, but certain intelligent critters should be less likely. Since we don't have entities for them yet, and likely won't be time-sinking ourselves into that, there'll probably just be certain exceptions that come to visit. The existing civilized ones are easier, so certainly humans, elves and gobs will be a more normal thing.
If I remember, they'll have their ethics and values from their homeland at first, and any change will have to be programmed in. That doesn't necessarily mean all sorts of options will open up for you workshop-wise or whatever. Everything has to be manually worked on that deviates from your entity definition, so it's a case-by-case large project to make it interesting.
Quote from: Farmerbob
I am curious if standing orders for finished products, especially drinks and foods, will consider the likes and dislikes of the community. I'm also wondering how deep standing orders will percolate through the community, and to what degree standing orders might interact with likes and dislikes of fortress dwarves and potential trader interactions.
The intent of the standing orders is to produce things you need, officially. Having standing orders set up by the dwarves is a different sort of thing. I'd like to explore more dwarf autonomy, in various ways, but that's not what we'll be doing now.
Quote from: smurfingtonthethird
Will there be barfights with the inclusion of taverns and inns? Please say yes.
Putnam mentioned that they are sorta in the game already, partially, but it is a crucial part of a tavern release, yeah. They'll matter more when we get to gambling, but we'll probably play around with it in the first release as well.
Quote from: MDFification
Since the next release is going to add in intellectual needs for dwarves, does that mean we can expect some sort of temple zone at some point after the tavern update?
I think this came up in a subsequent dev log, but yeah, we're starting with a simple temple similar to the tavern that'll be able to better satisfy the spiritual needs of dwarves that care. We aren't going full into the details until we get to the related start scenarios, but it'll be something.
Quote from: Tawarochir
What will the stories sound like when spoken?
Anybody's guess at this point -- we have the bad starting point of the legends screen, and we can strive to do better than that.
Quote from: Manzeenan
I feel like this has been asked but will there be books that grant experience to the reader? Or more aquired abilities?
Similar to necromancy
We've got the new knowledge stuff coming in this time, at least on a limited basis, and that's an appropriate use for books. We haven't really fully divided/figured out the split between theoretical and experienced/practical skill, so it's hard to say how something like a "manual on goldsmithing techniques" would work in the game. I'm not sure when we'll get to that sort of thing -- this current version has elevated books like "poetic forms of the dwarven kingdom" as the most likely candidate for inclusion.
Quote from: Tabris01
If books are used in some way, will they or some kind of writing material be needed in administration, at least from a certain point of time?
Like for the bookkeeper? I imagine, yeah, though I'm not sure when we'll get to that sort of thing. The original conception of dwarf fortress has the adventurer finding diaries and production logs and so on, and that's still floating around as an idea.
Quote from: Zarathustra30
How do you intend to mitigate feature creep during starting scenarios? It's beginning to sound like a magical, solve-everything release, which means it will take a very long time to implement.
I don't think I've put it forward that way, and that's not the intention. Certain dev sections, like the caravan arc in the past, did develop a sort of gate-keeper feeling about them, and the start scenario framework comes up that way (many times in this post), but that doesn't mean that a lot needs to be implemented all at once. It just means that a stronger basis for property, status and law enables a lot of different possibilities to be explored properly. I expect we'll be able to divide up the start scenario section into edible chunks and then aim at some interesting additions. The important thing will be to try to make the most extensible framework possible without spending two years on it.
Quote from: neblime
do you have plans on how to implement multi tile creatures graphically? for example, will a bronze collosus be a bunch of Cs in the shape of a collosus, or using existing characters to make different parts look like a foot or a head or whatever?
We've tried some things out, and it seems okay. It wouldn't be a big block of C's or D's, but more likely various symbols with distinguishable limbs and so on (not unlike the trees). There are lots of potential problems with that, and it's hard to get right in 3D for the tall humanoids, but I think it's possible to do something good without burning too much time on it. The snakes and blobs are the easiest, and things like dragons aren't so bad, especially because they can still vaguely pull off a 1 tile corridor even at large-ish sizes (the 16-tile-long-with-tail test dragon wasn't bad even with a 1-tile thick body, just a bit spindly, but not bad). The giants are trickier, though it would be funny to see a couple of O's stomping their way along the ground toward your fort. Overall though, it's something of a stylistic change and not one I'd be entirely happy with. The large trees have kind of forced it, though. The giants and dragons are like little squirrels now, and it would be best to change that, even at the cost of losing some of the imaginative weight of "that green D is very scary".
Quote from: BenLubar
If you were implementing them now, would furniture like chairs be tools?
We'd probably have almost every crafted object be of the same item type, since there's so much overlap in variables and so many things are multi-use. That might still happen as we go along, but in most cases it's an annoying rewrite, and it has to be done for each crafted item type separately.
Quote from: Japa
With the addition of temples, will religious festivals and observances ever come into play?
He he he, somebody already pointed out the "ever". But yeah, we're hoping to have those, and they're on the dev pages. We thought we were going to start with fairs as the first scheduled community events, but now I'm not sure. The myth stuff we do prior to the first artifact release might clarify it a bit, though it might not.
Quote from: CaptainArchmage
With temples are we going to have new furniture (such as, altars)? Or will that be covered by existing furniture (like tables)?
It's still under consideration. It depends on how far we want to go into temples before we have the additional information which will be granted by the next two major cycles (world gen artifact myth stuff, and religious start scenario framework stuff).
Quote
Quote from: FieariWill the new temples in fort mode tie into desecration and curses (in the initial release)?Quote from: CaptainArchmageWith the addition of temples will the "defile the temple" night-creature creating event now be able to happen in our own fortresses?
He he he.
Quote from: Lielac
Can a single temple designation be aligned to more than one deity, or would you need to make overlapping zones?
Right now it is one or all. You'd use multiple zones for some-deities-but-not-all setups at this point.
Quote from: LordBaal
does this means that the noise mechanics are getting an update? Would taverns be noisy? What about the music? Should we expect some changes regarding sound?
There's potential for that now with what I've done, but it's unclear exactly how that's going to matter meaningfully in dwarf mode, if you mean the disturbance stuff. There's going to be all kind of interaction with music in terms of producing and enjoying it, and it might trouble people with beds adjacent.
Quote from: Dirst
Toady, do you intend to leave the temple design up to the player (simple shrine to megaproject) or will the requirements increase as the number of worshipers and/or fort wealth increase?
By the time we get to "requirements" for temples, we'll be in embark scenario territory and the whole idea will be changed. You can make what you want, and the quality will be taken into account when it checks if it satisfies this or that dwarf or attracts these or those. I'm not sure about what specifics there will be. If the place is crowded to the point of dwarves being stuck on the floor, that should be a problem at some point. If the goal is glorification, that'll need to be quantified somehow for the game to understand it, and there might be differing elements based on the object of worship etc.
Quote from: MrLupenTails
Is it going to be possible to play as the different animal people in Adventurer mode or Fortress mode? (Such as Cave Swallowmen, etc.) Will these animal people be capable of making their our temples or religious totems?
They still don't have proper sites or moving groups. Something like that is needed for full realization. We're definitely going to do something with them for this time, but I wouldn't expect a broad expansion yet. Playable critters might be premature, though having animal people visiting the fortress starts to inspire such rumblings, and at some point you might find yourself with dozens of playable choices... at which point we'll need a friendlier menu.
Quote from: endlessblaze
all things considered with multi-culture forts comeing in (starting with the tavern arc) it's probably going to be possible to at least get animal pepole in you forts, I think NPC villages and civs can already do so (I see Sasquatch recruits on the surface all the time) but I would love confirmation and details. If someone like a animal man joins or fort will we get access to there tech, like will we be able to make blow Darts?
I think the sasquatch recruits are like the alligator recruits (just a naming mistake for wandering historical monsters), and the animal people in cities are all "outcast" groups living in the sewers etc. This'll be expanding somewhat for this next release, though it'll have to be directed right now toward dwarfy visitor type critters rather than a broad rewrite. The tech question is difficult -- the clothing part of it might be the most pressing issue. Not sure what'll happen yet.
Quote from: Rockphed
Considering that a lot of religious worship involves music, will the music creation activities in taverns be extended to happen in temples? Or do you see temples more as places for quiet reflection and prayer?
Also, if we have people who worship a megabeast or titan in our fortress, will we be able to create a temple to said creature? If it invades, it could see the temple in its honor and either decide that it is a nice place to stick around, or just that since we worship it, it doesn't need to murder all our citizens.
It's easier to start it the quiet way and then make it the other as appropriate. That said, there could be religious music this time. It's up in the air for now. I certainly don't have a specific way I'm thinking about the temples -- it should be up to the culture and the nature of the object of worship probably, in time.
Yeah, if you have a citizen that worships whatever, it is in the list. This'll matter most if you start to bring in outside people... you'd theoretically be able to set up a temple in your fort to the elven regional spirit if you've invited an elf to join up. Perhaps that should upset traditionalists, or any dwarves of good character.
Quote from: MrLupenTails
Can we create our own custom deities through a noble or by using the temple? Will dwarves be able to change religion? Can we enforce punishment on heresy or blasphemy? Will some religions be more violent? Will some religions be more peaceful?
Edit: When I asked the last two questions, I was referring to world generation scenarios. It would suck if all religions seemed the same for each race.
We're not doing too much with it now, but things will be more interesting when we get embark scenarios with religious components. I don't expect all of the religions to be the same at that point. I'm not sure what you mean by custom deities.
Quote from: King_of_Baboons
When a historical figure becomes a legend by defeating an evil beast,or when they become a important leader,they usually receive engravings,statues and books that concerns their heroic acts.Will such people receive a song in their honor?Maybe even a play about them?
He he he, yeah, we're doing songs and poems, and those have topics. Plays were in the list of things that necromancers were going to write, but I didn't get to it, and it's not currently on the plate for this release.
Quote from: Neonivek
Does the temples being fully developed suggest a possible use for the gods and more dynamics between the religions? Or when finished just be focused on individual temples and inside fortress dynamics?
and guiltishly doing two
Will religions be fleshed out in terms of how their tenants, outside spheres and the individual gods, work? Such as if they allow multiple god worship, accept new gods to the pantheon, and what they consider to be profane? I guess I don't really need a specific answer I guess what I mean is: Is there going to be more to religions outside the individual gods?
Oddly enough that is what I am really interested in because one of the things I found interested was the religion dynamics within the game. For example some wars or disagreements being made because of the worship of deities often within the same religion (Oddly often with gods of death... which makes sense 'fictional world' wise but not 'world history' wise) and I was just like "Is that god the evil god of this pantheon? or are they just fighting over godly supremacy".
Not for these tavern releases, but we'll be seeing two key pushes for religion with the artifact stuff and then with the start scenario stuff. There'll be a more coherent myth generation first, and then there'll be global religious concerns with the religious embark scenarios. The frameworks that come up there will also answer some of the questions about status and relationships within the religion in ways that can't be addressed now, and the test myth generator we've been working with goes well beyond individual gods.
The current religious disagreements involving gods are sphere-based I think, so it's mostly over some vague conceptual disagreement that sort of amounts to "evil god to my god". I don't recall if there are numeric penalties just from the god being a different god, though they do penalize non-belief. We'll have more information to work with there, though it's anybody's guess what gets focused on first once the frameworks are improved.
Quote from: Inarius
In relation to religion ,is any sort mythology generation (god X father of god Y, genealogy tree, relationships between gods like in most mythology or things like this) an idea you are working on, or will gods remain independant from each other ?
We've been toying around with a test generator and have quite a bit lined up now for the world gen artifact releases which will follow the tavern releases. All sorts of new stuff should make it in.
Quote from: Fieari
Does the new need system that replaced breaks utilize zoos, statue gardens, and similar ilk at all? Or will those need to wait for their own new zones and associated needs? Have you considered modable zones with modable needs?
The need system, though impoverished in many ways, isn't completely dedicated to the new zones -- a lot of the old stuff will be incorporated. I'm not sure about moddable needs -- like moddable attributes or moddable spheres, there's a point where a concept is basic and modding doesn't make as much sense, but where you can imagine some extension or another (especially as it concerns custom attributes/needs vs. fantasy or specific items or whatever). Right now I don't have any plans, and I'm not sure what people would want.
Quote from: smjjames
When dwarves go play music in the taverns or temples, will they just play solo or is there the possibility for them to group up in (whether impromptu spur-of-the-moment or not) bands?
Will (or do) stringed instruments have string that is actually made of, well, string? Whether it's catgut (actually sheepgut, although knowing dwarves, it actually COULD be from cats) or metal string. I'm just wondering this because I find a rock harp to be impossible to play.
Will artifact instruments give really high quality thoughts to other dwarves? I imagine that masterwork quality instruments will give better quality thoughts than fine quality. Though the dwarfs own instrument skill would come into play, after all, a dabbling music player could play an artifact flute badly.
Will they also sing along to the music? You know, like drinking songs, or just folksy songs, or even bard songs.
Groups will be required for some forms of music, and many (most?) of the dances.
String materials are planned. I'm still considering gut -- in the current raws, intestines annoyingly become a meat-with-a-name after butchery, and there's a difficulty in teasing that apart. Gut is possible, wire is almost guaranteed. Silk strings are also likely. I guess animal hair and waxed linen also came up -- I'm not sure about those, or others.
I don't have special plans for artifact instruments -- with the artifact dev arc so close, punting on all such considerations seems prudent.
Yeah, singing. It's going to be tied to the poetic forms as well.
Quote from: Dirst
Given that many elements of the tavern arc seem ripe for re-use elsewhere in the game, how much planning and future-proofing do you attempt when adding new features into the game?
For this time, that work was already done pretty much -- the activity system I used for combat training held up through robberies and now seems to be working into tavern/temple stuff. The old parties were not using that framework, and now they're gone. I try to keep the future in mind, but it's only possible up to a point. It is always an important consideration for me, since long-term projects live and die by it. Haven't done a perfect job by any means, of course -- this time for instance, we're still coping with rooms vs. zones vs. buildings as well as the awkward and ancient instrument item type. There's a scheduling/time-sink component that goes into refactoring decisions, and I'm trying not to get bogged down. It's hard to say what the correct overall decision is there, but it'll be confronted somewhere along the line.
Quote from: Manzeenan
Will better musicians/instrument quality reduce breaks or "needs"?
The quality can make people happier, certainly, but I'm not sure they should impact overall length of free time a dwarf wants. There's a positive aspect to needs now that improves skill rolls and so on, so even if the time spent is the same, there's still a benefit to doing a proper job.
Quote from: Vattic
Will badly performed music give a negative mood beyond being woken up by it?
He he he, terrible buskers should be arrested in certain places, but we haven't gotten to the crime stuff yet. Yeah, a bad performance will likely matter, though in certain contexts perhaps not, in the same way that skill won't matter at all in certain taverney dances where all are welcome.
Quote from: golemgunk
Will dwarves eventually have different tastes in music or other arts?
Given the preference lists they already have, I expect that'll be the case, yeah.
Quote from: Japa
With multi-racial forts being worked on, will other races' unique abilities come into play? For example, elves growing wood?
All of the combat abilities come for free, pretty much. The industrial stuff is a bit more difficult, especially the parts that are currently so nebulously defined as elven wood-growing (no associated reactions/interactions etc.). I'm going to look at what I can do, but not overly tax myself at this point with so much already on the plate.
Quote from: flabort
As far as room-groupings such as the mayorial suite, will these be added in with the temples/taverns, or will it wait until a subsequent release?
Will one of the new zones eventually replace the Trade Depot?
We're packed full of enough things for this release I think, so I'm going to wait on setting up the suites, but I've set up the system with that in mind, so hopefully it won't be a nightmare when we get there. When we get to the hill dwarves and the fair/market relationship with them, I imagine the trade depot is on the clock, though I'm not sure what form the new stuff will take technically. It would be cool to have all sorts of people visiting and trading in a more sprawling space.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
Are you looking around the world for pub inspiration and drinking culture? Come to think of it, I'm sure there are regional twists beyond what you drink and how much.
I haven't really looked into it, but I saw your thread.
Quote from: BenLubar
Will there be any leisure activities that consume the fort's supplies?
I can't think of anything special off the top of my head for this time, unless you count the use of instruments and toys -- they might not be so readily trade-able. We were considering gambling nobles getting the fort into trouble on occasion, but we have to be careful about it. Vattic mentioned the old shops, and when the economy rearises we'll see what happens this time.
Quote
Quote from: smjjamesCould tavern visitors potentially introduce other forms of poetry/music/dance with x chance of it catching on or someone getting inspired by it?
Also, will the tavern visitors occasionally pick up an instrument (assuming you have the one they want) and start playing or do their own singing or poetry? Would be great to see those from cultures besides that of our dwarves culture.Quote from: Cobbler89By what process will knowledge of poetic forms be acquired? Will skill affect how quickly a character picks it up?
I'm not sure how the information is going to diffuse right now -- some visitors will bring other forms, but it's unclear at this point in any mode how things are going to spread. I'll have more info later. There'll probably be at least something along those lines in both modes, even if it is half-assed.
Yeah, there will be visitor use of instruments -- I don't know at this point how bards will work, especially when it comes to building-style instruments. Perhaps those aren't so popular with traveling musicians, but I don't really have any idea. Perhaps the existence of building-style instruments in a tavern will attract suitable talent if it exists.
Quote from: Witty
With the new break system, will dwarves make friends/grudges more frequently now?
Will artifact instruments have any unique quality or effect when played?
I'm not sure... they already hang around in meeting halls and so on, so I'm not sure what the particular issue is there.
We haven't done anything magicky yet. They'd just be like a super-quality instrument right now. The real artifact stuff is coming soon enough that we might as well wait for it.
Quote from: Pseudopuppet
Does the new entertainment stuff apply to adventurers? Will I be able to play as a bard soon?
Yep, next release you should be able to make some sort of living that way, to the extent that means anything. Failure should also be possible. They can't throw you in prison yet, and they don't have apples sitting around to throw at you, but maybe there'll be some way they can express disapproval when you offend them.
Quote from: smjjames
Of the poem varieties/styles/forms that you're adding, what's your favorite?
It's all generated, so that isn't really answerable. I thought the Sanskrit configurations you read in all manner of directions were interesting, and I hadn't really thought about tonal poetry before -- it kind of highlights how silly it is to do poetry at all before we know more about the languages (if there are no tones in the language, there shouldn't be poetry that describes their use -- and so on, and so on, but we just have to whiff everything for now).
Quote from: Align
Do dubious believers have lower spiritual needs (less breaks for prayer or whatever they do)?
How will dwarves fulfil their needs when there's no appropriate zone? Prayer could be done wherever I suppose, but socialising or merrymaking seems like they'd need some sort of organization. Or do they just get increasingly intense bad thoughts?
Yeah, the lower needs for lower belief is already in. If you don't bother helping your dwarves out, they won't operate at their peak. The incidental chats they have might be enough to stave off stress, but there's now, for instance, a positive effect on all skill rolls from satisfying needs well, so having proper taverns and temples will lead to a better place overall.
Quote from: Knight Otu
Does the generator try to generate each style of instrument for each entity, or are there some ways to control the output if we don't want, for example, wind instruments for a given entity?
Each entity can ask for a batch each of keyboard, stringed, wind and percussion instruments (and leave off any of those groups), and you can still feed in the fixed INSTRUMENT tokens. The generated instruments are different for each instance of a given entity.
Quote from: crapabear
Now that inns will (I'm assuming) exist in the world, will townspeople in adventure mode stop automatically giving us permission to sleep in their homes whenever we ask?
He he he, maybe not just yet. If the system is robust enough to avoid death, it'll be considered.
Quote from: Uronym
Do you think that the current skill system is a bit "gamey"? It is hard to tell how it works, exactly, but, for instance, a Legendary Miner can mine something like 15× faster than an unskilled miner. Is it just a multiplier placed on the time/quality for most jobs? Do you think it is reasonable as it is? What to you envision in its place, if anything?
Certain skill effects like that are gamey, yeah, and they are still scattered around. I think there needs to be more detail in all of the industrial jobs to combat this, but there are problems there with item proliferation and my personal lack of knowledge. I'm not as worried about the addition of skill/knowledge types, since that can be presented cleanly enough, as long as the number of labor settings doesn't increase (or that system gets partially blasted) and there doesn't have to be fussing around with dwarf choice for jobs. We're hoping to get to some changes to labors once we're done with the artifact stuff, but since it's a core part of the game the experiments will be tricky.
Quote from: Magnus
How will vampire feedings be handled in relation to taverns and breaks? Will they still be called "On Break"? And I know it might be an intended feature, but I still want to ask, is vampire alcoholism going to be looked into?
When I got rid of breaks, I ran into that, and put a marker in the code that it needs to be dealt with. It won't be "on break", but I'm not sure what it'll say. I'm not sure when we'll look at vampire alcoholism, but it seems to make more sense to me not to have them still suffer ill effects when they can't do anything about it, if that's the current form of the problem.
Post by: Urist McGoombaBrother on January 30, 2015, 11:53:42 pm
Probably has been asked before somewhere in this lengthy thread.
Any plans to extend the 256 ASCII-Tiles in the future? Probably to 512 or even unlimited tiles for optical differences. As there are so many tiles having multi-uses, it is quite confusing sometimes. I am not referring to adding graphics, just implementing other tiles not included in the ASCII e.g. horizontal brackets/letters or something like that. Same regarding colours. Any plans to increase them from 16 to e.g. 256 colours or even 24-bit? Some parts of the code like the color-definiton tokens seem to support them already. Or will that cause major recoding?
Post by: Putnam on January 31, 2015, 12:03:43 am
Many thx for all the interesting info.
Probably has been asked before somewhere in this lengthy thread.
Any plans to extend the 256 ASCII-Tiles in the future? Probably to 512 or even unlimited tiles for optical differences. As there are so many tiles having multi-uses, it is quite confusing sometimes. I am not referring to adding graphics, just implementing other tiles not included in the ASCII e.g. horizontal brackets/letters or something like that. Same regarding colours. Any plans to increase them from 16 to e.g. 256 colours or even 24-bit? Some parts of the code like the color-definiton tokens seem to support them already. Or will that cause major recoding?
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_10_transcript.html
Rainseeker: Let's talk about ASCII characters!
Toady: Alright.
Rainseeker: Because your game is ASCII, and ASCII is probably the most fun graphical representation of a game I've ever played. It's definitely old school ... but I think that the complexity of your game totally overwhelms even noticing it's ASCII after a while. Macbeth asked this interesting question; 'As the project gets more complex do you expect that these ASCII character sets won't be able to support the detail you're adding? What are your plans for displaying that information?'
Toady: It's already at that point, if you've seen the elves versus elephants or goblins versus goats or whatever issues come up ...
Rainseeker: 'Why are those elephants shooting arrows at me? I don't understand!'
Toady: And there are methods of getting around that to some extent, but eventually you hit a wall. You saw with world generation recently the human sprawl I went with lines and whatever the letter is called (æ) when you put an 'a' and an 'e' together for the hill farms, and eventually your bag runs out of ... bag stuff ...
Rainseeker: Tricks.
Toady: There's no more tricks in the bags, no more little characters in the bag. And so then you hit that point where you're like 'do you just go over to a tileset at that point? Do you experiment with Unicode stuff? If you add just a new IBM codepage r256 grid characters or whatever ...' If we add another grid of characters that look promising and just stick with that, that's kind of counterproductive in a way, because once you jump up beyond 256 you're free to move about the country at that point and go up to 65'000 or millions or whatever the rewrite entails. At the same time there's something to be said for the ASCII mode of the game, which I like because I can develop it quickly and I don't have to ... Zach and I drawing is not the same as other people drawing ... or maybe the problem is it's the same as other people drawing who aren't artists. And we can't use other people's tilesets without worrying about legal business, and more so not just legal business but ongoing development; if we've got a tileset then are there release delays when we wait for new pictures, or if a person drawing a tileset bails do we try and find somebody that can draw in the same style as they do, or does it become some kind of hellish hybrid of different art styles. It's difficult when we don't have an employee that we can employ for several years, or a person who will stick with the project. People stick with the project, like Baughn's been helping us for quite a long time, but what happens? If Baughn leaves, I do have some trouble with linux and mac support and so on, and other people can help with that, and I'm not sure graphics is the same way where someone can just step in and do the exact same thing, although artists are talented and there's probably someone who can do that, but I don't know if I can count on that or not. Then there's the legal question, I don't know how to do that properly; I have to make sure I can find someone I can trust who isn't going to lift a glyph from Nintendo without me noticing. So there're a lot of questions, it's not completely ruled out, but there're a lot of questions. The other method would be just to add another 256 characters if I don't just go with some Unicode font or something. And in a sense there's a charm at least with the vanilla, of adding just another 256 characters, because it's an extension that's required, but it still sticks within the same kind of poetic form. But there's going to be like seven people that agree with that assessment and a whole crapload of people that are like 'what the hell are you thinking?' So we're kind of there in a sense ... not super pressing at least, not anymore pressing than adding graphics to the game always was with running out of characters to display the information. But it's certainly already hit that wall in several places, and it's only filling it out more as time goes on.
Post by: Urist McGoombaBrother on January 31, 2015, 12:36:27 am
However that link is already more than four years old. Many new features, many new items (like all the tree tiles) were added in the meantime. "Hitting the wall" as Toady says appears due to that for sure closer than back then. Any change in that attitude? Also I am not referring to graphics, which for sure will cause major and long time dedicated work. Just extending it from 256 tiles to some more. Additional tiles could be derived from e.g. UNICODE. I am no specialist regarding copyright. But as most of the UNICODE-tiles are from various recent/historic alphabets, I can't believe they are more restricted than ASCII.
Post by: DG on January 31, 2015, 12:39:09 am
Post by: Vattic on January 31, 2015, 01:12:24 am
Post by: Manzeenan on January 31, 2015, 01:37:40 am
Post by: Cobbler89 on January 31, 2015, 01:44:57 am
C++14 mostly works a few kinks out of C++11 -- little fixes and enhancements to the stuff that didn't even exist before. If you like auto, one thing of note is that in C++14 auto works for function return types (not to be confused with writing auto before the function name in order to write the return type after, which was already in C++11 for similar yet different reasons). I also recommend, even in C++11, becoming passingly familiar with decltype, which can be used to get auto-like effects (of tying a type to a variable rather than repeating the type explicitly) in some situations where auto wouldn't work.Quote from: GreenScapeHave you switched to c++11/14? How much did it make a coding easier?
I don't know about the 14 one, but if I remember, 11 had the auto keyword, which I thought was very useful. I didn't find anything to do with the other 11 features that I recall, like the lambda stuff.
I'd also recommend a familiarity with at least the concept of smart pointers (which were added in C++11), for the same reason I'd recommend a familiarity with at least the concept of container classes -- they both make it easier to avoid a lot of the dangers of pointers and dynamic memory. In particular, the shared_ptr + weak_ptr combo can help avoid dangling references (although you have to code the weak_ptr uses for the case where the thing they refer to goes away, but they make that pretty easy).
That's my two cents' worth on the nearly universally applicable, anyway; make of it what you will. ;^)
As for lambdas, as far as I can tell they're mostly to help support functional programming composability styles -- sort of thing you'd find useful to no end if you came from a Haskell background, but it's an entirely different mindset with its own pros and cons...
Quote
...Unicode...Switching gears, I wonder whether an issue with the whole text tileset limit has less to do with a specific character set and more to do with the fact that it's mapped to a specific character set instead of either mapping to specific tiles (more like the graphics pack method, but for the things that are currently character-based tiles) or else to tiles 1 through n in a tileset of at least n tiles, either way requiring (for good user experience; I doubt it could be program-validated) that the tileset provided make sense with/match up to whatever is mapped to them in the raws and init files. Unicode, of course, would provide a way to achieve the latter sort of mapping, with the added bonus that if the raws/inits were written in Unicode the tiles used could still be specified as letters/symbols, but the disadvantage that Unicode has a lot of extra complication because it's designed for universal text handling, not game spritesheets. Also just my two cents' worth, feel free to take it or to leave it. ;^)
Post by: Mel_Vixen on January 31, 2015, 02:41:30 am
Thanks for all the answers Toady. You mentioned that we might get the occasional Human elf or goblin on our doorsteps, will your fort be a possible destination for refugees?
Also hooray for fleshed out animalpeople.
Post by: Astarch on January 31, 2015, 03:54:34 am
Quote from: GreenScapeHave you switched to c++11/14? How much did it make a coding easier?
I don't know about the 14 one, but if I remember, 11 had the auto keyword, which I thought was very useful. I didn't find anything to do with the other 11 features that I recall, like the lambda stuff.
14 was mostly minor cleanup, changes to constexpr etc...
The simplest way lambdas are useful is that you can use the functions in <algorithms> without needing to add tons of boilerplate.
c++11 has a few other features that don't really necessitate a massive rewrite, the explicit nullptr to replace NULL, range based for loops:
Code: [Select]
for (auto& thing : someContainer){foo(thing);}static assert if you do any metaprogramming, technically not needing to put a space between each > when nesting templates is a c++11 feature that was added really early. Stuff that is nice but might require rewriting old code is move constructors, smart pointers, and initializer lists.C++14 mostly works a few kinks out of C++11 -- little fixes and enhancements to the stuff that didn't even exist before. If you like auto, one thing of note is that in C++14 auto works for function return types (not to be confused with writing auto before the function name in order to write the return type after, which was already in C++11 for similar yet different reasons). I also recommend, even in C++11, becoming passingly familiar with decltype, which can be used to get auto-like effects (of tying a type to a variable rather than repeating the type explicitly) in some situations where auto wouldn't work.Quote from: GreenScapeHave you switched to c++11/14? How much did it make a coding easier?
I don't know about the 14 one, but if I remember, 11 had the auto keyword, which I thought was very useful. I didn't find anything to do with the other 11 features that I recall, like the lambda stuff.
C++11 auto/decltype function signatures are a huge pain in the ass and probably aren't worth it if you're not doing a lot of generic programming, which I suspect is not going on in DF. C++14 auto function signatures are nice, but I don't know if Toady is using new enough compilers for them.
Quote
As for lambdas, as far as I can tell they're mostly to help support functional programming composability styles -- sort of thing you'd find useful to no end if you came from a Haskell background, but it's an entirely different mindset with its own pros and cons...
Toady's an algebraist isn't he? I bet he'd enjoy Haskell.
Post by: Putnam on January 31, 2015, 05:47:15 am
Quote from: CaptainArchmageHow do invaders find their way to a fort now, do they have to path over other sites to get to the fort?
They walk over the land on a path avoiding water
Does this mean that they avoid rivers? If so, will they simply give up if the fort is surrounded by rivers, or will they just go right over?
Post by: Cruxador on January 31, 2015, 06:29:40 am
Post by: Majoras123 on January 31, 2015, 07:01:57 am
Quote
Quote from: PseudopuppetQuoteDoes the new entertainment stuff apply to adventurers? Will I be able to play as a bard soon?
Yep, next release you should be able to make some sort of living that way, to the extent that means anything. Failure should also be possible. They can't throw you in prison yet, and they don't have apples sitting around to throw at you, but maybe there'll be some way they can express disapproval when you offend them.
Will there ever be magical songs to control your enemies and bolster your allies ala D&D Bards?
Post by: smjjames on January 31, 2015, 08:54:01 am
Will there ever be magical songs to control your enemies and bolster your allies ala D&D Bards?
You can have music to bolster or give courage to your allies without magic even being involved. As for the controlling part, I guess some psychological intimidation might be involved, but really, the magic is really far off.
A thought of my own:
With shrines (I guess those would be small temples), will ancestor worship be in?
Post by: Vivalas on January 31, 2015, 10:39:11 am
Will military squad orders be updated along with the new justice system. For example, will the kill order be replaced with an attack order, where you can set the terms of engagement for your troops. The options would be something like, non-lethal, lethal, and no-quarter, so that you could target your own dwarfs without loyalty cascades and maybe attempt to capture invaders like goblins or kobolds. I was thinking being able to quell riots and beat dwarves would be fun along the lines of running a totalitarian fort.
Will there be prison zones, so you could have rooms designated for prisoners, like holding cells and cells. Would this be considered as part of the prison colony scenario? Will we be able to shackle, torture, and restrain prisoners based on civ ethics?
This ties into the justice system, but if it's too early to answer then okay :)
Post by: Cobbler89 on January 31, 2015, 12:03:13 pm
Now that you mention it, that's quite possible. I was thinking more about programming in general than about Toady's background in mathematics.Quote from: GreenScapeHave you switched to c++11/14? How much did it make a coding easier?
I don't know about the 14 one, but if I remember, 11 had the auto keyword, which I thought was very useful. I didn't find anything to do with the other 11 features that I recall, like the lambda stuff.QuoteAs for lambdas, as far as I can tell they're mostly to help support functional programming composability styles -- sort of thing you'd find useful to no end if you came from a Haskell background, but it's an entirely different mindset with its own pros and cons...
Toady's an algebraist isn't he? I bet he'd enjoy Haskell.
Post by: Paaaad on January 31, 2015, 02:03:13 pm
QuoteQuote from: FieariWill the new temples in fort mode tie into desecration and curses (in the initial release)?Quote from: CaptainArchmageWith the addition of temples will the "defile the temple" night-creature creating event now be able to happen in our own fortresses?
He he he.
...I'm going to take that as a 'Yes'.
Post by: LHLF on January 31, 2015, 02:20:53 pm
I don't know if this has been asked, but won't there be a special skill for creating instruments? Making an instrument is really complex, not something that any craftsman can just do. Besides, we have special labors and workshops just for making soap and ash, so why not? hahaha
Post by: Knight Otu on January 31, 2015, 02:26:08 pm
A thought of my own:I doubt it. Given the myth generator Toady mentioned, it's possible that it comes in with the Artifacts section or the Starting Scenarios section, though.
With shrines (I guess those would be small temples), will ancestor worship be in?
Are temple effects on immigration on the table for the tavern release? What about pilgrimages?As you mentioned, it would almost certainly be part of the Starting Scenarios. For the tavern releases... I guess it depends on how flexible the code is for attracting tavern visitors. It could well be the case that Toady just needs to add a few things for it to work.
I think Toady means oceans and lakes here - the wandering groups in adventure mode don't particularly care about rivers that I've seen, and from my understanding, they follow the same general code.Quote from: CaptainArchmageHow do invaders find their way to a fort now, do they have to path over other sites to get to the fort?
They walk over the land on a path avoiding water
Does this mean that they avoid rivers? If so, will they simply give up if the fort is surrounded by rivers, or will they just go right over?
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 31, 2015, 02:49:01 pm
Post by: mifki on January 31, 2015, 04:05:22 pm
Thx for the quick answer.
However that link is already more than four years old. Many new features, many new items (like all the tree tiles) were added in the meantime. "Hitting the wall" as Toady says appears due to that for sure closer than back then. Any change in that attitude? Also I am not referring to graphics, which for sure will cause major and long time dedicated work. Just extending it from 256 tiles to some more. Additional tiles could be derived from e.g. UNICODE. I am no specialist regarding copyright. But as most of the UNICODE-tiles are from various recent/historic alphabets, I can't believe they are more restricted than ASCII.
Interesting thing about moving to Unicode is that it would give access to a lot of different characters that can perfectly fit the game, and for free. While still staying in text mode for quicker development without all the complications of graphical tiles that Toady mentioned.
Post by: Knight Otu on January 31, 2015, 04:24:06 pm
Of course, the relevant display tiles would still need to be created (not all of them can be used, of course). Then again, if you go Unicode, you can essentially go freeform. Got a few hundred tiles the game'll never use on its own, such as control characters that would just be blanks? Characters that would be too large or detailed to fit the default resolution? Pack 'em with game-relevant tiles instead.Thx for the quick answer.
However that link is already more than four years old. Many new features, many new items (like all the tree tiles) were added in the meantime. "Hitting the wall" as Toady says appears due to that for sure closer than back then. Any change in that attitude? Also I am not referring to graphics, which for sure will cause major and long time dedicated work. Just extending it from 256 tiles to some more. Additional tiles could be derived from e.g. UNICODE. I am no specialist regarding copyright. But as most of the UNICODE-tiles are from various recent/historic alphabets, I can't believe they are more restricted than ASCII.
Interesting thing about moving to Unicode is that it would give access to a lot of different characters that can perfectly fit the game, and for free. While still staying in text mode for quicker development without all the complications of graphical tiles that Toady mentioned.
Post by: BenLubar on January 31, 2015, 04:55:26 pm
Until then, I'm sticking with either the default CP437 tiles or TWBT if I really want to use a custom tileset.
Post by: lethosor on January 31, 2015, 06:01:26 pm
Post by: Greiger on January 31, 2015, 06:18:55 pm
And second just in-case that first one does get thrown out. Will races without alcohol_dependent eventually take offence when visiting your fortress if there is no water whatsoever available, or will they perfectly happy to drink mug after mug like water like our dwarves do?
Post by: King Mir on January 31, 2015, 08:40:13 pm
And second just in-case that first one does get thrown out. Will races without alcohol_dependent eventually take offence when visiting your fortress if there is no water whatsoever available, or will they perfectly happy to drink mug after mug like water like our dwarves do?Historically, water was unsafe to drink, so booze, possibly watered down, was the norm. Maybe elves wouldn't mind drinking crudely filtered swamp water, but it hardly seems right for them to expect it.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on January 31, 2015, 09:43:41 pm
here is an good Article on the issue (http://leslefts.blogspot.de/2013/11/the-great-medieval-water-myth.html)
Another issue would be that many Asians and American Natives cant (generally) hold theyr liquor because they hadnt developed any cooping mechanism for alcohol. Did those people get more sick? Were they dying left and right because of either drunkenness or to much water? I would guess not ;)
edit: as further point, in medieval Germany the right to brew beer was given out by the King (Baron, duke whatever) and most often only big cities or certain wealthy families could get that right. There was even a so called Beerwar between Görlitz ind Zittau in the Lusitanean league. If beer and booze would have been so essential to survival this whole Setup wouldnt have existed but everyone would have been allowed to brew. Instead beer was a lowgrade luxury and trading it sometimes including long distances was profitable. That would have happened if you children and LIfestock would have died left and right.
Speaking of which, lifestock, your fricking cows drank water every day, if the water was so seriously bad then these should die too.
Post by: EternallySlaying on February 01, 2015, 01:09:44 am
With the advent of Taverns, will some people who come in be lone/small groups of merchants? Obviously if they start coming in force as soon as you declare a tavern zone, it would mean a constant supply of things for rock goods; but if they only came with enough export profit, it could balance.
With music and such, will some people sell services for goods. Like paying for a performance(s) with trinkets, or for a traveling weaponsmith to work for roughly 10% of what he makes (or some other agreed upon condition)? On that note, if you have a renowned legendary flute-dwarf, can you sell his services for goods?
I read earlier that music can increase the bravery of dwarves, assuming this is true, Will we be able to assign military music dwarves? So we can march in to the beat of the drum British style, or a flute Spartan style?
edit: had stupid thought petting my cat... COULD WE HAVE CATS BE INSTRUMENTS? A dwarf could pet it to make it purr, and change the rate of petting to change the pitch of the purr. The cat could decide to just leave, causing riots as the music stops, or could scratch attackers when brought to battle. Finally an important way to use cats. Scamps could !!code!! this himself!
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 01, 2015, 06:36:17 am
Livestock, especially then, were not usually very healthy specimens, being full of parasites and weak compared to their modern, selectively bred counterparts. Murrain (disease of cattle and sheep) killed huge numbers of animals throughout the Middle Ages.
While it is easy to exaggerate how dangerous drinking water was, it was only sensible to do so frequently if the source was clean (a spring, or melted snow). Still water could be safe to drink, but if an animal died in the water and was not dragged away or eaten quickly then it could soon become very nasty indeed. Past people and animals were often ill and frequent pestilences kept population down.
Post by: Man In Zero G on February 01, 2015, 10:35:19 am
So, bringing it full circle to the original question:
They may or may not be unhappy if there's no water being served in your tavern, but they're definitely going to be unhappy if the only water you've got available is stagnant 'murky pool' water.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 01, 2015, 10:40:58 am
Humans and elves might want some, in which case the purity might become an issue.
Post by: Man In Zero G on February 01, 2015, 10:43:21 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 01, 2015, 10:44:39 am
Post by: Man In Zero G on February 01, 2015, 10:47:00 am
Cleaning wounds with booze should also be an option, and non fruit based alcohol should require water to brew.These are suggestions that have been around for years.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 01, 2015, 02:27:51 pm
Post by: eternaleye on February 01, 2015, 05:04:19 pm
1.) Direct mapped to single codepoints
In this case, Toady'd be using it the same way he currently uses ASCII - one cell is one character; you just have a bigger menu to choose from. This might allow, say, ☭ for elves if Toady decided it. However, it could at least give us mechanisms as ⚙, the various arrows for minecart route designations (maybe ➿ for rollers?), coffins as ⚰, a proper pick character in ⛏, chains ⛓...
2.) Indirect mapped from IDs to codepoints
Toady gives IDs to things that can occupy a graphical cell, and those are then mapped (likely in a moddable way) to Unicode codepoints, which are then displayed. With this, users could individually decide that elves should show up as ☭ (I so would).
3.) Indirect mapped from IDs to graphemes
Toady creates IDs for things that can occupy a graphical cell, and then the mapping is to graphemes - single visual units that may be made of multiple codepoints, generally as base + list of combining characters. This would allow you to have, say, Forgotten Beasts be represented as their base character with a strange combining character (or several) - for instance, a cat of ash with an extra eye? Gray c͒
4.) Indirect mapped via display-engine-specific abstraction
Here, each backend (text, SDL, etc) would specify what it can display in a tile; it instantiates the first ID mapping that can support it. This could thus do ASCII on non-unicode terminals, Unicode on uxterm, rendered Unicode or (if configured) a tileset on SDL, etc. Might be implemented using SFINAE, or otherwise.
Also, as far as "needing more tiles", there's a very good set of libraries for rendering text to an in-memory image that support unicode: In particular, Pango + Harfbuzz + Freetype. Arbitrary unicode-based tiles could be rendered from fonts on the fly. (This might make adding custom tilesets _easier_ in some ways; drop in a font.)
Post by: Putnam on February 01, 2015, 05:41:30 pm
Post by: FoiledFencer on February 01, 2015, 07:28:57 pm
Water wasnt unsafe to drink, people drank booze because it tastes good, it was the coke of medieval times. Also the booze argument doesnt hold up if you have to make booze with water because you need some kind of base, so you will have all your heavy metals and stuff in your booze. With the alcohol concentrations of around 3-6% in beers you cant kill many of the natural bacteria that would settle in beer (actually for that effect you should go north of 20%) after its opened, thats why people added hops later (which we still need iirc) because it keeps the beer form spoiling..
Beer would not be safe on account of the alcohol, but because part of the process involves boiling the water you use for your base. Of course, they could just go ahead and boil their drinking water, but like you said, beer is tasty and since most brews would be very weak you could drink it all the time.
Post by: Untelligent on February 01, 2015, 07:44:40 pm
Quote
Well, we're back with more content full of meticulously researched detail! Musical instruments and procedurally-generated art forms are next. Then tabletop games for your dwarves to play! Then artifacts and magic!
wat
Post by: Putnam on February 01, 2015, 07:56:40 pm
Post by: eternaleye on February 01, 2015, 09:26:12 pm
Wouldn't as it is right now be the easiest way? I.E, there's a CREATURE_TILE/CASTE_TILE token which is used to assign tiles by number, so that a creature with tile 195 will have ├ as its tile (or with Unicode, Ã (assuming it uses base 10 instead of base 16 as it does now))
Well, it varies. First of all, moving to Unicode at all (if you're using actual unicode, and not just treating "any int below 0x10FFFF" as an encoding space for ids) would require sparse tilemaps - since the useful bits are scattered all over the codepoint space. That means one file per tile, if you want it to be any kind of usable.
If you integrate Pango support, then you don't need the tileset rewrite (you use fonts, and generate the pixmaps), but at the cost of one more library. If you want users to be able to substitute tiles with this, then either users get good at editing fonts (which may be workable), or you go to option 3:
Some mapping between Internal IDs and (Unicode) tile IDs, probably in a textual config file. You need internal ids, rather than just mapping one codepoint to another, to avoid aliasing issues (I want to map my custom creature to c and cats to the cat emoji; wat do? CREATURE_TILE/CASTE_TILE alone can't do this properly without modding the vanilla files, which someone who wants a drop-in mod would find disagreeable.). This is actually already sort of done for trees, as I understand it - so not a large leap to make. If you use the existing CREATURE_TILE/CASTE_TILE stuff as defaults, this mapping file can be pretty tiny.
However, once you're using Pango, then supporting full-on graphemes becomes almost trivial - you just map to strings rather than individual codepoints, and Pango handles the differences in rendering. You need to validate them to ensure you only use the first grapheme in the string, but Pango has helpers for that kind of thing.
Post by: monk12 on February 01, 2015, 09:28:40 pm
QuoteQuote from: FieariWill the new temples in fort mode tie into desecration and curses (in the initial release)?Quote from: CaptainArchmageWith the addition of temples will the "defile the temple" night-creature creating event now be able to happen in our own fortresses?
He he he.
...I'm going to take that as a 'Yes'.
I rather hope that means "Yes, and it will be spectacular."
Post by: eternaleye on February 01, 2015, 09:34:31 pm
QuoteQuote from: FieariWill the new temples in fort mode tie into desecration and curses (in the initial release)?Quote from: CaptainArchmageWith the addition of temples will the "defile the temple" night-creature creating event now be able to happen in our own fortresses?
He he he.
...I'm going to take that as a 'Yes'.
I rather hope that means "Yes, and it will be spectacular."
Well, tantrums are likely a good reason to want locking doors on your temples, at least. Also setting them far from stuff that might anger dwarves. (Tavern barfights? Gambling?)
Post by: Waparius on February 02, 2015, 12:09:51 am
Well, tantrums are likely a good reason to want locking doors on your temples, at least. Also setting them far from stuff that might anger dwarves. (Tavern barfights? Gambling?)
Heretics? Gods who refuse to answer prayers? :p
Also holy crap ARTIFACTS! MAGIC! I was excited enough by temples & taverns!
Post by: Align on February 02, 2015, 02:42:00 am
1.) Direct mapped to single codepointsDammit even after i googled around, found and installed code2000, i still get error blocks instead of proper glyphs
In this case, Toady'd be using it the same way he currently uses ASCII - one cell is one character; you just have a bigger menu to choose from. This might allow, say, ☭ for elves if Toady decided it. However, it could at least give us mechanisms as ⚙, the various arrows for minecart route designations (maybe ➿ for rollers?), coffins as ⚰, a proper pick character in ⛏, chains ⛓...
Post by: Rose on February 02, 2015, 04:21:28 am
Post by: Knight Otu on February 02, 2015, 06:05:27 am
Post by: endlessblaze on February 02, 2015, 07:29:38 am
Post by: LordBaal on February 02, 2015, 08:02:30 am
Post by: Broken on February 02, 2015, 08:53:21 am
Finally, The One Ring, Thor's Hammer, The Singing Sword, The Golden Goblin of the Fourth Age, The Fountain of Youth, Sting (the short sword, not the singer) and many, many other things...The one pig tail sock!
Now that we will have temples, will we got a way to commision art works of a certain theme in demand? To be able to make
appropiate engravings and statues, without depending of the whims of the rng?
Post by: endlessblaze on February 02, 2015, 09:13:26 am
I kinda want to have magic artifacts so I can have
(some DF language name here) deaththunder the snowing sparks
this is an magical artifact short sword. all craftdwarfship is of the highest quality. electricity courses through its blade.
it is made of silver and encircled with bands of gold opal. it menaces with spikes of gold. on the item is the image of a dwarf and (some god of lightning here) in silver. the (god of lightning) is smiting the dwarf.
the sword is considered sacred by the followers of (lightning god)
The Lightning God thing came from someone mentioning the possibility of holy artifacts.
Post by: LordBaal on February 02, 2015, 09:28:45 am
The one pig tail sock!Three Pig Tail Socks for the smelly-tree hugger-kings under the sky,
Seven for the awesome Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, and magma, and vomit, and magma,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die eaten by a GCS,
One for the Dark Toad on his dark throne
In the Land of Armok where the Shadows lie.
One Sock to rule them all, One Sock to find them,
One Sock to bring them all* and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Armok where the Shadows lie.
*outside the fortress to be killed..
Post by: Tawa on February 02, 2015, 11:45:13 am
Quote from: Threetoe in the February Report
Then tabletop games for your dwarves to play!Tabletop games, you say?
What extent shall these exist to?
If they're randomly generated, I swear I'm going to generate as many worlds as I need until I get a game called Dungeondragon or something to that extent.
Post by: Knight Otu on February 02, 2015, 11:57:38 am
Quote from: Threetoe in the February ReportThen tabletop games for your dwarves to play!Tabletop games, you say?
What extent shall these exist to?
If they're randomly generated, I swear I'm going to generate as many worlds as I need until I get a game called Dungeondragon or something to that extent.
Here's a relevant quote from the last DFTalk:
Quote
Toady: ... Finally you'll be able to have games. We're trying to randomly generate some games. We'll do what we can with dice games, and board games. They've have all been around for thousands of years so it's all fair, and your dwarves will be able to gamble, he he he. And we'll be able to... We're thinking because we have it in adventure mode anyway, the ability to play games when we do that part, which we'll talk about in a second, that you'll also be able to play the games directly if one of your dwarves is playing, just to give you a chance to see it, and to experience the game.
And here's one from earlier in the thread:
Quote from: InariusWill there be any other types of games than dices ? I would be very interested if you could talk more about these (if you have already thought enough about it !)
So far I've categorized the dice, board, and card/tile games I've found on wikipedia and elsewhere, decided which ones are more-or-less period (though that doesn't matter so much), made lists, done some code experiments and thought a bit. The idea is to randomize games starting from those templates, and then to get a little more adventurous over time once the code supports many almost-traditional games. The cut-off for the first random games release will probably be AI based -- we don't really mind if the opponents are terrible players, but utterly random moves are annoying (if unavoidable sometimes). Hopefully we can get at least one board game in without it being a total disaster.
Post by: Reelya on February 02, 2015, 12:02:38 pm
Water wasnt unsafe to drink, people drank booze because it tastes good, it was the coke of medieval times. Also the booze argument doesnt hold up if you have to make booze with water because you need some kind of base, so you will have all your heavy metals and stuff in your booze. With the alcohol concentrations of around 3-6% in beers you cant kill many of the natural bacteria that would settle in beer (actually for that effect you should go north of 20%) after its opened, thats why people added hops later (which we still need iirc) because it keeps the beer form spoiling.
here is an good Article on the issue (http://leslefts.blogspot.de/2013/11/the-great-medieval-water-myth.html)
That article is good, but the guy is selective of his sources and omits numerous medieval sources which contradict his argument. That sort of omission is normally a red flag. There are more than one source from the middle ages saying people should drink beer or wine, and avoid water. And the arguments were that it promoted health, not taste.
https://zythophile.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/was-water-really-regarded-as-dangerous-to-drink-in-the-middle-ages/
Hildegard for example says not to bathe, drink or cook with the waters of the Rhine or Danube rivers. She makes no such warning about beer or wine, recommending them over water for people with medical problems of the lungs for example. So there was a definite concept around ~1200AD that brewed drinks were a safer alternative to many existing water sources, or for the infirm.
So, in other words either extreme is false: some water was seen as safe, other water was seen as dangerous, and beer/wine were seen as a safe fallback if you couldn't access clean water, and was said to be just better all round than water if you were ill or weak.
Post by: LordBaal on February 02, 2015, 12:39:27 pm
Post by: reality.auditor on February 02, 2015, 05:58:42 pm
Quote from: threetoe
You may have thought we were giving up, or just fixing bugs for the rest of the foreseeable future.I would actually be happy about latter thing...
Quote from: toady
Hopefully we'll see them come into use in the tavern and temple activities soon.Temple activities? I see Toady could not resist feature creep after all. Ah well, it is not like temples are bad thing. It just will take more time.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on February 02, 2015, 05:58:53 pm
Water wasnt unsafe to drink, people drank booze because it tastes good, it was the coke of medieval times. Also the booze argument doesnt hold up if you have to make booze with water because you need some kind of base, so you will have all your heavy metals and stuff in your booze. With the alcohol concentrations of around 3-6% in beers you cant kill many of the natural bacteria that would settle in beer (actually for that effect you should go north of 20%) after its opened, thats why people added hops later (which we still need iirc) because it keeps the beer form spoiling.
here is an good Article on the issue (http://leslefts.blogspot.de/2013/11/the-great-medieval-water-myth.html)
That article is good, but the guy is selective of his sources and omits numerous medieval sources which contradict his argument. That sort of omission is normally a red flag. There are more than one source from the middle ages saying people should drink beer or wine, and avoid water. And the arguments were that it promoted health, not taste.
https://zythophile.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/was-water-really-regarded-as-dangerous-to-drink-in-the-middle-ages/
Hildegard for example says not to bathe, drink or cook with the waters of the Rhine or Danube rivers. She makes no such warning about beer or wine, recommending them over water for people with medical problems of the lungs for example. So there was a definite concept around ~1200AD that brewed drinks were a safer alternative to many existing water sources, or for the infirm.
So, in other words either extreme is false: some water was seen as safe, other water was seen as dangerous, and beer/wine were seen as a safe fallback if you couldn't access clean water, and was said to be just better all round than water if you were ill or weak.
Note too that beer requires boiled water to make, and the great beer belt of Germany and the Low Countries sits on top of one of Europe's best aquifers.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on February 03, 2015, 12:50:28 am
That article is good, but the guy is selective of his sources and omits numerous medieval sources which contradict his argument. That sort of omission is normally a red flag. There are more than one source from the middle ages saying people should drink beer or wine, and avoid water. And the arguments were that it promoted health, not taste.
https://zythophile.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/was-water-really-regarded-as-dangerous-to-drink-in-the-middle-ages/ (https://zythophile.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/was-water-really-regarded-as-dangerous-to-drink-in-the-middle-ages/)
Hildegard for example says not to bathe, drink or cook with the waters of the Rhine or Danube rivers. She makes no such warning about beer or wine, recommending them over water for people with medical problems of the lungs for example. So there was a definite concept around ~1200AD that brewed drinks were a safer alternative to many existing water sources, or for the infirm.
So, in other words either extreme is false: some water was seen as safe, other water was seen as dangerous, and beer/wine were seen as a safe fallback if you couldn't access clean water, and was said to be just better all round than water if you were ill or weak.
The author did mention those medical texts but those are indeed medical texts and not well distributed nor understandable by the 95% illiterate Populace thus not commonplace knowledge. Bingen is btw. around the corner of my current Fort ... i mean Home, and as such i know the Area a bit, there a good number of cities along the Rhine and it feed-ins, rivers were the sewers of the period so that bathing or drinking from them was indeed unhealthy no question there. Even more so then the populations grew in later periods culminating the 19th and 20th century industrialisation when you could etch PCBs in the waters of those rivers.
Yet, like FearfulJesuit adds and from personal experience having lived in medieval cities (thanks to my hometown not being bombarded in WW2) i can attest that many houses had theyr own wells and and that quite a few of the public fountains were fed by the aquivers, local springs or cisterns which guaranteed relative fresh and clean water for the general city population.
My take away here is that we need medical texts (and bibles) so future dorfs can bicker about whether Water was good or bad, before industrialised brewing allowed each dwarf to bath in booze :P
A few basic books/scrolls/tablets for the dorfmode temples and monasteries would be awesome unless we get mostly oral traditions.
Apart from this thoughs another question:
Will there be immigrants or dwarfs that are or choose to be priests, preaching to the people in your temple? How about barmaids/bartenders and wenches?
Post by: Jordan~ on February 03, 2015, 01:54:32 am
Post by: Vattic on February 03, 2015, 06:06:32 am
Will dwarves still drink from barrels?
Post by: Button on February 03, 2015, 04:51:20 pm
Will there be immigrants or dwarfs that are or choose to be priests, preaching to the people in your temple? How about barmaids/bartenders and wenches?
If we have wenches, can we also have... male wenches? Whatever the male equivalent of a wench is.
Post by: Putnam on February 03, 2015, 04:51:52 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on February 03, 2015, 09:17:13 pm
Post by: EternallySlaying on February 03, 2015, 10:13:29 pm
Of all the places in life I don't want to go, I think I don't want to go to a dwarven strip club the most.
With cages, dumping, and chains, it could easily be done. Which brings me to a question, Can an imprisoned creature be forced to perform (with obvious risk to the health of the holder if said creature should try to misbehave)? If so would this include adventure mode, where a creature you take could be forced to perform, or, if you're taken prisoner, could you be forced to perform? Also, would this potentially be outlawed or endorced by certain groups/monarchs/deities?
I would expect this act to anger the
It's a rather dark topic, but this is also a forum with threads like Dwarven Day Care and Merfolk farming.
Post by: Miuramir on February 04, 2015, 12:52:33 am
Can an imprisoned creature be forced to perform (with obvious risk to the health of the holder if said creature should try to misbehave)? If so would this include adventure mode, where a creature you take could be forced to perform, or, if you're taken prisoner, could you be forced to perform?
Somehow I don't think this is going to end up as Simon Smith and his Amazing Dancing Bear (Muppet version) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GND0R8Q8Qgg). But it *could*.
Post by: Dirst on February 04, 2015, 09:00:16 am
Of all the places in life I don't want to go, I think I don't want to go to a dwarven strip club the most.What about when the game generator comes up with strip poker?
Post by: Dirst on February 04, 2015, 09:03:16 am
The game already has ethics for slavery and torture, and since these are things that dwarves don't do they're likely to be pretty far down the priority list.Of all the places in life I don't want to go, I think I don't want to go to a dwarven strip club the most.
With cages, dumping, and chains, it could easily be done. Which brings me to a question, Can an imprisoned creature be forced to perform (with obvious risk to the health of the holder if said creature should try to misbehave)? If so would this include adventure mode, where a creature you take could be forced to perform, or, if you're taken prisoner, could you be forced to perform? Also, would this potentially be outlawed or endorced by certain groups/monarchs/deities?
I would expect this act to anger thetree-huggerscannibalsElves, potentially drawing them to war... leading to more prisoners.
It's a rather dark topic, but this is also a forum with threads like Dwarven Day Care and Merfolk farming.
Post by: Cruxador on February 04, 2015, 09:37:54 am
Will there be immigrants or dwarfs that are or choose to be priests, preaching to the people in your temple?
Quote from: DevLog
We're not doing much with temples until later, but for this release devout dwarves will be able to pray in them (fulfilling their spiritual needs).It sounds like for now, nothing of the sort happens. As for the eventual future, religious sects are specifically discussed under Fortress Subgroups in dev.html, so they're going to use that system, whatever it winds up being. We can presume priests will be the big players of those groups, and will do some manner of preaching, though perhaps Toady can elaborate further on this.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 04, 2015, 10:59:32 am
If we have wenches, can we also have... male wenches? Whatever the male equivalent of a wench is.
A servant, a barman, or a male prostitute, depending on the context.
Post by: Button on February 04, 2015, 11:21:47 am
I don't want to pressure Toady but I also want to know how resigned I should be.
Post by: Mr S on February 04, 2015, 01:14:51 pm
Post by: toboo123 on February 04, 2015, 03:57:33 pm
Post by: BenLubar on February 05, 2015, 08:26:31 pm
Code: [Select]
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:3000]
[BODY_SIZE:1:168:15000]
[BODY_SIZE:12:0:60000]but the data structure for dwarves has the sizes as 300, 1500, and 6000.Why did you decide to make the raws use a different scale in the text files than in the game?
I remember hearing about some scaling similar to this when you announced plant growths.
Post by: Putnam on February 05, 2015, 09:24:09 pm
Quote
reactions can now be categorized within shop menus and they can provide information during job selection to stop it all from being overwhelming.
This may be the best thing that has ever happened to modding.
Is there finalized syntax for that yet, or will that have to wait?
Post by: Zarathustra30 on February 05, 2015, 10:49:03 pm
How do procedurally-generated buildable instruments work? Is there a new [buildable] "token" in the generated raws, or are there additional buildings for each large instrument?
If it is a token, will modders have access?
Can we assign dwarves to play music or do they merry-make only by their own accord?
Is my foaming at the mouth normal or should I check for dog bites?
Edited for clarity and additional question
Post by: Mel_Vixen on February 06, 2015, 04:16:29 am
Post by: Knight Otu on February 06, 2015, 05:32:02 am
How do procedurally-generated buildable instruments work? Is there a new [buildable] "token" in the generated raws, or are there additional buildings for each large instrument?I would expect it to work like furniture. I assume that it should be accessible to modders either way - either it's an instrument token, or it's a new buildable item type looking a lot like instruments.
If it is a token, will modders have access?
Did i get that right that subassemblies of an instrument have now theyr own material, thus we get a alder violine with steel strings? If so can those decoration-like subassemblies be raw-defined for objects and could we then add properties to them? This would be interresting for multimaterial weapons, making for example wooden spears with steel tips possible or giving obsidian swords propper wooden handles.Yes, at least strings will have their own materials. I'd assume drum skins and such as well. It's most likely that
1) only instruments receive such "decorations" for now, because that's where Toady needed them, and
2) that they're raw-definable. Otherwise instrument modding would take a hit.
Post by: Cruxador on February 06, 2015, 05:56:23 am
Quote from: Devlog
some large instruments placed as little buildingsI'm pretty sure this is outside the scope of this release, but imagine if they were built much larger. Like, if you could build a pipe organ in Dwarf Fortress, and place a console the same way you'd construct furniture but then you need to build windboxes (out of like twenty pipes and I guess some wood or something) and link them, and you'd need to link bellows and either have a dwarf man them or link them to a waterwheel somewhere, and actually make something really cool with the mechanism system to have pipes providing your dwarves with music from a legendary organist all over your fortress.
When, if ever, might pipe organs be on the table? Or are they just to ancillary? Would you want to wait for restructuring of the mechanism system before getting into transferal of air pressure, or what kind of things might hinder this?
Post by: LordBaal on February 06, 2015, 07:16:25 am
Sorry if I stride you as close minded.
Post by: Cruxador on February 06, 2015, 07:23:11 am
I have a single, open question. Why randomly generated instruments? I get it's an experiment, and people do want them too, I get randomly made creatures, demons and even plants yeah, but.... I don't really get the need of randomly made instruments, hopefully it won't be too confusing to learn what a "fiblergausth" is, how it looks and how it's supposed to be played or what it sounds like.The general philosophy for the game is that everything should have random elements, to enhance replayability. For instruments, I think you're overestimating the degree of variation. More likely we're going to see something like the twelve-stringed long-necked Dog Lute from the Confederation of Apples. Minor variations on a template, in other words. And having local flavors of instruments, just like having local flavors of poetic forms, helps enhance the color and interest of your world.
Sorry if I stride you as close minded.
Post by: Knight Otu on February 06, 2015, 07:45:00 am
Yeah, it's pretty unlikely that you'll see what amounts to nonsense words. They'll likely be named in a similar way to the random items that already exist for the vault dwellers with their sheer skirts and barbed axes. Rather than a nokzamtalin as it would be named dwarven language, you'd get a battle drum for instance. Perhaps once item descriptions are in, the nokzamtalin could become possible, but until then, the names will probably remain in English words.I have a single, open question. Why randomly generated instruments? I get it's an experiment, and people do want them too, I get randomly made creatures, demons and even plants yeah, but.... I don't really get the need of randomly made instruments, hopefully it won't be too confusing to learn what a "fiblergausth" is, how it looks and how it's supposed to be played or what it sounds like.The general philosophy for the game is that everything should have random elements, to enhance replayability. For instruments, I think you're overestimating the degree of variation. More likely we're going to see something like the twelve-stringed long-necked Dog Lute from the Confederation of Apples. Minor variations on a template, in other words. And having local flavors of instruments, just like having local flavors of poetic forms, helps enhance the color and interest of your world.
Sorry if I stride you as close minded.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 06, 2015, 08:28:03 am
Post by: LordBaal on February 06, 2015, 09:00:53 am
Post by: Miuramir on February 06, 2015, 04:32:03 pm
Why randomly generated instruments?
DF is eventually expected / intended to procedurally generate entire fantasy worlds. It's already closer to that than any other software I'm aware of; but procedurally generating *cultures* is a seriously under-explored area.
Music and poetry, sometimes combined into song, is one of the most powerful and obvious differentiators of culture. Toady is working on procedural generation of all three, and that is going to be very interesting to see how it works out.
And as for your other objection, most people are not familiar with real pre-1400 (or even pre-1600) instruments by either name or sound. Without looking it up, which of the veena or the bandora is ancient, and which is mid- renaissance and technically post-period for DF? (1) If someone referred to a "wait-pipe", what then-common instrument would that be? (2) And of the salpinx, sackbut, aulos, and zampogna, which would have been the companion instrument implied by that description? (3)
How many of those simple, common, examples has the average DF player *ever* heard played... heck, how many of them has even the average music historian even heard played? I've enjoyed live performances of Piffaro (http://www.piffaro.org/), an awesome renaissance band which occasionally dips back into late medieval, and they perform with a bewildering variety of instruments most people have neither heard, nor heard of... and most of theirs are several hundred years closer to familiar modern instruments.
tl;dr: Procedurally-generated cultures demand ways that the cultures are different, and music is a great way to show that. Additionally, most actual historical instruments have strange names and stranger sounds to modern players, to the point that in a listing of dulcian, krumhorn, launedda, fiblergausth, swarabat, tiexianzai, charango, grajabpi... does your invented "fiblergausth" look any stranger? (All of the others are real historical instruments.)
(1) The veena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_veena) dates from antiquity (shows up on coins from mid-300s), whereas the bandora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandora_%28instrument%29) is believed to only date back to around 1560.
(2) The "wait pipe" was slang for the shawm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawm)
(3) The description implies use in a medieval or renaissance ceremonial European town band, which would typically be comprised of shawm and sackbut (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sackbut) players.
Post by: Inarius on February 06, 2015, 05:11:49 pm
Post by: Zarathustra30 on February 06, 2015, 05:43:04 pm
...Additionally, most actual historical instruments have strange names and stranger sounds to modern players, to the point that in a listing of dulcian, krumhorn, launedda, fiblergausth, swarabat, tiexianzai, charango, grajabpi... does your invented "fiblergausth" look any stranger?...
Now I mostly agree with you. However, most instruments have names similar to what they sound like, to the point where they could be considered onomatopoeia. It would be hard to replicate that with procedural generation, and there could be some mental disconnect between name and function.
Post by: LordBaal on February 06, 2015, 09:28:31 pm
Post by: Putnam on February 06, 2015, 09:33:20 pm
...Additionally, most actual historical instruments have strange names and stranger sounds to modern players, to the point that in a listing of dulcian, krumhorn, launedda, fiblergausth, swarabat, tiexianzai, charango, grajabpi... does your invented "fiblergausth" look any stranger?...
Now I mostly agree with you. However, most instruments have names similar to what they sound like, to the point where they could be considered onomatopoeia. It would be hard to replicate that with procedural generation, and there could be some mental disconnect between name and function.
Oboe? Piano? Harpsichord? A lot of the "names similar to what they sound like" are almost entirely due to the association of the sound with the instrument, which is pretty much all a cultural thing.
Post by: Max™ on February 07, 2015, 04:30:47 am
Amazing.
Post by: Cruxador on February 07, 2015, 06:36:28 am
Wait, this time next year we could have a dorf get an urge to make something awesome, run off and gather some wood, wires, a few pieces of metal, and a couple of gems... then turn them into a frickin' lightning-shooting literally "electric" guitartifact, which could then end up becoming the holy item for a church of rock?Shooting lightning seems like an odd choice for an instrument, I wouldn't say it's something that's certainly in. Becoming a holy item of a church is also not something that's been talked about – sure, the potential is there, but it would have to be in fortress start scenarios and it would be pretty incidental to the point of that release. In the (fairly unlikely, in my opinion) even that Toady does go off that far on tangents, it definitely won't be done by a year from now.
Amazing.
Post by: Fieari on February 07, 2015, 07:25:50 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 07, 2015, 09:25:16 am
If you need to have learned (or at least heard) a music style, or poetical style, before using it-- how are new styles generated? Would a new type of strange mood create a style, or are they only created on day one of worldgen?Toady's been talking as though they're wholly culturally-based in origin, so day 1 seems more likely. A strange mood for a poet seems way more awesome though, especialy if his legendary skill is in the use of his new form of poetry. A god giving poetry to mortals, Odin-style, would also be cool.
Post by: Max™ on February 07, 2015, 03:48:39 pm
*-+Well, lightning was just what I went with for the electric guitar part, and I figure dorfs can worship megabeasts that kill their families, why not an awesome rock guitar, right?Wait, this time next year we could have a dorf get an urge to make something awesome, run off and gather some wood, wires, a few pieces of metal, and a couple of gems... then turn them into a frickin' lightning-shooting literally "electric" guitartifact, which could then end up becoming the holy item for a church of rock?Shooting lightning seems like an odd choice for an instrument, I wouldn't say it's something that's certainly in. Becoming a holy item of a church is also not something that's been talked about – sure, the potential is there, but it would have to be in fortress start scenarios and it would be pretty incidental to the point of that release. In the (fairly unlikely, in my opinion) even that Toady does go off that far on tangents, it definitely won't be done by a year from now.
Amazing.
Post by: JesterHell696 on February 08, 2015, 03:59:23 am
Post by: Putnam on February 08, 2015, 04:13:15 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 08, 2015, 06:54:51 am
That's more a DFTalk question, I think, since actual lust isn't quite a thing yet AFAIK (no out-of-wedlock intercourse... and for that matter, no intercourse at all)
There in intercourse since the gelding update, but sexual desire should be greatly expanded.
Post by: Footkerchief on February 08, 2015, 11:03:27 am
with the upcoming addition of taverns and the recent addition of both sexual preferences and lust propensity what are your thoughts on one of worlds oldest professions, prostitution? as taverns and bars where being used as makeshift brothels for centuries and some evidence's that temples to fertility goddesses had sacred prostitution as far back as 1800BCE.
Very old quote from a thread on this subject:
Speaking of cheap tricks, were people turned off because Ultima (7?) had prostitutes? Ultima 7p2 had a nude lesbian scene. That kind of thing doesn't bother me. I'm not sure what I think about dwarven prostitutes though, or even dwarven marriage. Both genders seem like a bunch of heavy drinking workaholics, though they do share beds with their spouses (and their pets). The dwarves I'm portraying aren't "slightly stupid" in a general sense, as they are very talented artisans and engineers -- this mechanical/crafting bent pulls them away from the common man analogy. They are also emotionally unbalanced and strangely attracted to lava flows, though.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 08, 2015, 11:07:01 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 08, 2015, 02:44:49 pm
Post by: Rex Invictus on February 08, 2015, 02:47:48 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 08, 2015, 03:21:31 pm
I think since then, though, Toady has become more conscious of potential scandal. He did remove crass words from the game's dictionaries, for example. And even there, he's thinking it's not a thing for dwarves which would make it unlikely in dwarven taverns.
Other species than dwarves can run taverns, though, especially with multi species forts...
"Obok's Gentleman's Club" may be shunned by most dwarves, but less scrupulous peoples may avail of it.
Post by: golemgunk on February 08, 2015, 05:07:03 pm
Is there any plan to fix some of the issues of egg-laying civilizations? plz. for kobolds.
He was planning on doing proper Kobold sites back when he was doing elf, gob, and dwarf sites, I imagine some egg problems will be be a part of that whenever he gets back to it.
Post by: LordBaal on February 08, 2015, 06:42:22 pm
Post by: JesterHell696 on February 08, 2015, 11:00:14 pm
I think since then, though, Toady has become more conscious of potential scandal. He did remove crass words from the game's dictionaries, for example. And even there, he's thinking it's not a thing for dwarves which would make it unlikely in dwarven taverns.
the potential scandal is a non-issue in my mind, the game grand theft auto V has off screen prostitution and has sold over 34 million units and made take 2 interactive over 1 billion in revenue, this is in spite of the "Hot Coffee Mod" scandal of a previous game, its like they say, there is no such thing as bad publicity.
I mean even the game dragon age had a scene where the player could engage in prostitution with two nugs no less. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Nug
Very old quote from a thread on this subject
The main reason it came to mind is because of the Lust Propensity value, I've had dwarves with a very high lust value and it just made me think of adultery, cuckoldry and prostitution and while the first two aren't relevant to the current dev ark prostitution is relevant for taverns and temples.
Post by: Cruxador on February 09, 2015, 05:44:56 pm
I feel the same. But the game is Toady's livelihood, we can hardly fault him for being inclined towards caution.I think since then, though, Toady has become more conscious of potential scandal. He did remove crass words from the game's dictionaries, for example. And even there, he's thinking it's not a thing for dwarves which would make it unlikely in dwarven taverns.the potential scandal is a non-issue in my mind
Post by: Man In Zero G on February 09, 2015, 07:02:09 pm
Never mind. It's not worth it.
-end edit-
The prostitute question's been answered by Footkerchief, and like nearly every feature-creep inducing suggestion-disguised-as-a-question, the answer is most probably going to be "Maybe later, maybe not, no specific timeline on that." if Toady addresses it at all. Any further discussion is pointless here, and belongs in suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Post by: Urist McGoombaBrother on February 10, 2015, 12:57:49 am
with the upcoming addition of taverns and the recent addition of both sexual preferences and lust propensity what are your thoughts on one of worlds oldest professions, prostitution? as taverns and bars where being used as makeshift brothels for centuries and some evidence's that temples to fertility goddesses had sacred prostitution as far back as 1800BCE.
Very old quote from a thread on this subject:Speaking of cheap tricks, were people turned off because Ultima (7?) had prostitutes? Ultima 7p2 had a nude lesbian scene. That kind of thing doesn't bother me.
Dwarven nude lesbian scenes ... Sounds interesting. Of course just from pure scientific point of view. ;-)
Post by: Baffler on February 11, 2015, 05:19:05 pm
-snip-
... Let's just agree to disagree there.
Anyway, with multiracial forts coming into play for the next release, will it be possible to define multiracial entities as well?
Post by: King_of_Baboons on February 13, 2015, 12:07:28 pm
Anyway, with multiracial forts coming into play for the next release, will it be possible to define multiracial entities as well?
With the possibility of multiracial entities being added in the near future,will it be possible to have interracial marriages between 2 different races and maybe some sort of hybridization as well?(half-elves and half-goblins?)
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 13, 2015, 01:29:36 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on February 13, 2015, 02:34:57 pm
How are things looking regarding save compatibility? I'm guessing it's at least tricky to inject the new stuff into existing saves.
Post by: Eric Blank on February 13, 2015, 02:45:55 pm
A simple control mechanism to decide which species can interbreed: creature class tokens. Can_hybridize_with:(class) on females of the species. If their husband is a different species and not that class, no children will result.
Post by: Vattic on February 13, 2015, 03:23:44 pm
Anyway, with multiracial forts coming into play for the next release, will it be possible to define multiracial entities as well?
With the possibility of multiracial entities being added in the near future,will it be possible to have interracial marriages between 2 different races and maybe some sort of hybridization as well?(half-elves and half-goblins?)
I would be surprised if we got hybrids. They were mentioned in a recent (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html)DFTalk. Seems they will need a lot of groundwork first.
Quote
Threetoe:
Okay, so the last question: 'I was reading the suggestion thread on interspecies breeding the other day, and I was hoping that you could discuss the notion of extending the breeding system to include such things as hybrids to a greater extent, primarily half-breeds among the sapient beings like elves, humans, dwarves, etc., and all the possible fun that arises from that, aside from stuff like discrimination, ethnic cleansing and increased interracial tensions, a more diverse and less static set of races populating the world would no doubt contribute to the richness of the game.'
Toady:
Yeah, I mean we're for it. The snatcher story, for instance, had an elf-goblin hybrid which didn't even have a human component to it.
Threetoe: Yeah, I've written a few stories about this. We definitely want to entertain these possibilities.
Toady:
Basically, we would have done it already, it's just a matter of overcoming some technical challenges. Do you just create new raws for all of the half forms? Then what happens if there are quarter forms and so on, or if you have one part elf, human, dwarf and goblin? Does it try and average the raws or come up with a one-to-one correspondence between the different body parts? It's kind of like the polymorph problem where you turn into another humanoid and right now your equipment just drops on the ground, even though the werewolf could theoretically hold things and wear things that were stretchy enough, or something, or just stayed on, like a little hat. It doesn't know how to do that, or transfer wounds, for that matter. Once we understand how that works, which is an easier problem than coming up with a mixture of creatures, then there's also the centaur problem, of taking pieces of creatures and gluing them onto each other; taking the top half of a person and gluing them onto most of a horse, except for the head. These are all easier problems than trying to procedurally just come up with the child of two creatures, but it's still an intriguing problem. So I'm not sure I'd just jump in and be, like, here's the half and two-halves breeding can just do a Mendelian genetics type thing, and sometimes they're a whole, sometimes it's one race or another, sometimes it produces another half, like half-elf/half-goblin. It could work that way, but it would be interesting to be able to get something more smeared, but it's difficult. That's part of the reason it hasn't happened yet; it's an intriguing and difficult problem.
Post by: LordBaal on February 13, 2015, 03:33:34 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 13, 2015, 04:59:30 pm
Cross breeds between species (calling them "races" is somewhat inappropriate, since races have no problem breeding with each other) exist on Earth as well (mules are an obvious example, and cross breeding would allow mules to be born in DF). However, they are infertile.
Post by: Vattic on February 13, 2015, 05:16:25 pm
Night creatures kidnapping other creatures is different, since they do not produce any offspring.They do mate and produce offspring. Sometimes you find quite large families of them.
Cross breeds between species (calling them "races" is somewhat inappropriate, since races have no problem breeding with each other) exist on Earth as well (mules are an obvious example, and cross breeding would allow mules to be born in DF). However, they are infertile.
Maybe all the sapient creatures do come from one species, but became more diverse for in-universe reasons.
Post by: Putnam on February 13, 2015, 06:09:11 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 13, 2015, 07:11:40 pm
It's still different, since they convert the kidnapped into their own species before mating.
I was completely wrong about night creatures. I have actually never seen one in game, having only seen werebeasts, vampires and the undead attacking my forts out of the supernatural creatures.
Post by: reality.auditor on February 14, 2015, 08:22:53 am
How are things looking regarding save compatibility? I'm guessing it's at least tricky to inject the new stuff into existing saves.Major releases of DF never are save-compatibile. And making it so would be horrible waste of time. In this case "it is alpha!" excuse actually works.
Post by: lethosor on February 14, 2015, 08:29:46 am
0.21, 0.22, and 0.23 were save-compatible, as were 0.27 and 0.28.How are things looking regarding save compatibility? I'm guessing it's at least tricky to inject the new stuff into existing saves.Major releases of DF never are save-compatibile. And making it so would be horrible waste of time. In this case "it is alpha!" excuse actually works.
Post by: reality.auditor on February 14, 2015, 08:58:54 am
Interesting, didn't knew that (I get to knew DF from 40d). Anyway I somehow doubt it will repeat ever, especially with change in versioning number system.0.21, 0.22, and 0.23 were save-compatible, as were 0.27 and 0.28.How are things looking regarding save compatibility? I'm guessing it's at least tricky to inject the new stuff into existing saves.Major releases of DF never are save-compatibile. And making it so would be horrible waste of time. In this case "it is alpha!" excuse actually works.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 14, 2015, 10:31:30 am
Post by: Fieari on February 15, 2015, 12:25:38 am
Another major lack of information in the languages are words for local creatures-- it's weird that there can be no Dwarven words for creatures they encounter every day. That said, I understand that there might be... technical issues, given that modders can add new creatures (or take them away). Do you have any thoughts regarding how you might fix this in the future? For example, would the creature names go in the language file or the creature file?
Post by: Putnam on February 15, 2015, 02:19:20 am
I mean, it's not insurmountable, but just imagining the amount of tokens makes me wanna barf a little.
Like, here's an excerpt from the first language file I found on my computer:
Code: [Select]
[T_WORD:DATE_VERB:rusama]Now, let's try it out with some stuff to facilitate poetry and other language.
First of all, obviously we need conjugation rules to preserve our sanity:
Code: [Select]
[TRANSLATION:TROLL]
[VERB_PRESENT:o:i:u:u:a:n] first person singular, first person plural, second singular, second plural, third singular, third plural
[VERB_PAST:o:i:u:u:a:n] troll words all have exactly 6 letters. I figure this is a good example mostly to show the difficulty, heh.
[VERB_FUTURE:o:i:u:u:a:n] Same for all tenses because I'm lazy and, again, six letters.
[VERB_PARTICIPLE:e:t] past participle, present participle; but then, the game already has this.
Second, we need our verb.Code: [Select]
[T_WORD:DATE_VERB:rusam:REGULAR] what kind of language would this be without irregular verbs? Some sort of conlang?... wait a minute
[SYLLABLES_PRESENT:roo-sah-moh:roo-sah-mee:roo-sah-moo:roo-sah-moo:roo-sah-mah:roo-sah-min] I guess it'll just assume that identical syllables will rhyme in this system.
[SYLLABLES_PAST:roo-sah-moh:roo-sah-mee:roo-sah-moo:roo-sah-moo:roo-sah-mah:roo-sah-min] I mean, this is obviously a dumb way to go about it, but whatever, silly example.
[SYLLABLES_FUTURE:roo-sah-moh:roo-sah-mee:roo-sah-moo:roo-sah-moo:roo-sah-mah:roo-sah-min]
[SYLLABLES_PARTICIPLE:roo-sah-may:roo-sahmt]
And that's just off the top of my head, there's more that's important. The game already organizes words by theme in language_SYM.txt and each individual word is given certain parts of speech in the files, and this isn't going at all into other such things, such as number, gender (though that's probably not a problem for dwarven poetry, heh), tense, case, mood or voice.
The system could probably just include default behaviors for case/conjugation/tense etc. and you'll end up with elven esperanto or whatever, but in general it'd just be far harder for modders to make their own languages. The pronunciation I guess you can apply rules to as well, so that's nice, but in general it seems like something... again, not insurmountable, but horrifically tedious. I know some people enjoy that kind of thing (I know quite a few do!), but it'd be a bit odd to require a bunch of wikipedia time for a language.
On the other hand, materials are pretty ludicrous right now, so it fits right in.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 15, 2015, 05:06:51 am
Post by: Mel_Vixen on February 15, 2015, 06:33:58 am
How far would the musical forms go? Can i dare to hope that Dwarf fortress procedurally generates and plays "midi"-files with songs the various cultures have writen?
Post by: Knight Otu on February 15, 2015, 06:52:48 am
Can i dare to hope that Dwarf fortress procedurally generates and plays "midi"-files with songs the various cultures have writen?Surely you're not expecting anything other than a "No" here?
The dwarven "language" isn't, having only a few random words, no grammar, and no words for things that dwarves encounter every day. A whole RAWS system for grammar and more words could be given by modders to Toady and implemented if he cannot be bothered to do it."cannot be bothered to do it"? Where did you get that idea? Toady plans to do a large language overhaul, it just isn't happening anytime soon.
Post by: WordsandChaos on February 15, 2015, 07:19:31 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 15, 2015, 09:23:52 am
Post by: Inarius on February 15, 2015, 01:07:30 pm
Anyway, I just wanted to say that poetry and music in a game (has it already been in any game before?) is really wonderful. Thank you Toady !
Post by: Knight Otu on February 15, 2015, 01:24:55 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on February 15, 2015, 02:04:00 pm
Can i dare to hope that Dwarf fortress procedurally generates and plays "midi"-files with songs the various cultures have writen?Surely you're not expecting anything other than a "No" here?
Eh random/procedural poetry sounded like a pipedream before, music is similar but more on the emotional and not in the informational side coupled to cultural experience and such - although with both, language and music, modern computers have theyr problems.
Yet there are certain rules and patterns that govern it, i would think, after all modern Rock or classic sinfonias cause the same emotions in sourthamerican natives as they do in fat European Westerns.
Sure that question is on the extreme side but as a whole DF is pretty much on the extreme side :P
Post by: KillerClowns on February 15, 2015, 11:35:51 pm
Quote
A poetic riddle intended to complain about someone recently deceased, originating in The Amber Relic. The poem is two to three couplets. Forms of parallelism are common throughout the poem, in that certain lines often share an underlying meaning and they sometimes have reversed word orders. The ending of every line of the poem rhymes with every other. The second line of each couplet presents a different view of the subject of the first line. The first line has six syllables. The second line has ten syllables.
An entire poetic form about complaining in riddles about the recently dead? Now there's an interesting cultural clue...
Post by: Untelligent on February 16, 2015, 12:21:46 am
Quote
There are several problems to work out (sometimes it demanded some specific hundreds of thousands of stanzas).
Dwarf Fortress might have the honor of being the first game where a bug briefly caused wagnerian operas to be randomly generated.
When the language overhaul gets done and Toady's old threat to generate the poems themselves becomes feasible, those infinite monkeys trying to rewrite shakespeare are gonna have some competition.
Post by: Miuramir on February 16, 2015, 01:14:37 am
QuoteA poetic riddle intended to complain about someone recently deceased, originating in The Amber Relic. ...
An entire poetic form about complaining in riddles about the recently dead? Now there's an interesting cultural clue...
Perhaps because the dead might actually be listening? "Yeah, Uncle Urist was always really unstable, seems he'd go berserk at the slightest provocation. I hated that, and him. ... What do you mean, who is that behind me? AAAAUGHH!" (Violent Ghost tears off complainer's limb...)
Post by: monk12 on February 16, 2015, 06:58:22 am
Post by: King_of_Baboons on February 16, 2015, 12:47:41 pm
This whole thing about poetry and music makes me more anxious every day!
But think about it:with the addition of randomly generated poetry,music,art and religion in the next update,it means that Dwarf Fortress will not only create amazing worlds and histories but it will also create unique randomly generated CULTURES as well.
So maybe if we remove all the fantasy stuff,add the economy system back again and hope that the culture stuff is not broken in the next update....maybe we could use DF to simulate real life stuff?Could DF be used to simulate real life worlds?
I know it sounds impossible,but it would be cool if was true.
Post by: kulik on February 16, 2015, 01:07:14 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on February 16, 2015, 01:22:08 pm
Will poetry include profanities, ridicule, and erotic themes?There are several forms that are ribald (vulgar, sexual) in nature, a few that satirize or complain about a subject, and one that praises a lover (and also is ribald). It seems that's reasonably well-covered, though I guess there's always the potential to add more.
Post by: WordsandChaos on February 16, 2015, 01:54:33 pm
"The ending of every line of the poem rhymes with every other." - Does this mean it's using an alternating rhyme scheme or more: ABCBDBEB etc?
Post by: Dirst on February 16, 2015, 02:01:57 pm
These descriptions are awesome. I love the comments on stanza, metre, syllabic counts, and the other technical poetic structure/form detail. It's impressive how varied the styles get. Generator has a surprising love of tercets and assonance. So many speak stanzas in the style the serpent.I read that as AAAAAAAAAAA.
"The ending of every line of the poem rhymes with every other." - Does this mean it's using an alternating rhyme scheme or more: ABCBDBEB etc?
Post by: Toady One on February 16, 2015, 02:41:31 pm
Post by: King_of_Baboons on February 16, 2015, 03:14:01 pm
I would like to make some questions if you don't mind:
Who exactly made those poems and who is going to make new ones?Because every single book in our worlds is made by crazy necros in their towers and its weird that only necromancer towers can be used to store books.It would be nice to see libraries and non necromancer writers.
How are the fortress mode/adventure mode tavern activities going?I really want to be able to sing and play games with my
What kind of !!FUN!! awaits us regarding religion and the scenarios?I'm sure you plan to add some sort of religion induced fun since almost everything can bring a fortress to ruin in this game.
And how long will take for the update to get finished?
Post by: WordsandChaos on February 16, 2015, 03:21:08 pm
These descriptions are awesome. I love the comments on stanza, metre, syllabic counts, and the other technical poetic structure/form detail. It's impressive how varied the styles get. Generator has a surprising love of tercets and assonance. So many speak stanzas in the style the serpent.I read that as AAAAAAAAAAA.
"The ending of every line of the poem rhymes with every other." - Does this mean it's using an alternating rhyme scheme or more: ABCBDBEB etc?
Bah, of course! Overthinking/attempting to remember some half-digested university lectures does not make for good poetic comprehension.
How much semi-random knowledge, on any number of topics, have you acquired over the years through having to research all these different subjects?
Post by: Sizik on February 16, 2015, 03:23:25 pm
These descriptions are awesome. I love the comments on stanza, metre, syllabic counts, and the other technical poetic structure/form detail. It's impressive how varied the styles get. Generator has a surprising love of tercets and assonance. So many speak stanzas in the style the serpent.I read that as AAAAAAAAAAA.
"The ending of every line of the poem rhymes with every other." - Does this mean it's using an alternating rhyme scheme or more: ABCBDBEB etc?
"Every other" means like ABABAB
Post by: WordsandChaos on February 16, 2015, 03:29:31 pm
These descriptions are awesome. I love the comments on stanza, metre, syllabic counts, and the other technical poetic structure/form detail. It's impressive how varied the styles get. Generator has a surprising love of tercets and assonance. So many speak stanzas in the style the serpent.I read that as AAAAAAAAAAA.
"The ending of every line of the poem rhymes with every other." - Does this mean it's using an alternating rhyme scheme or more: ABCBDBEB etc?
"Every other" means like ABABAB
I think he has it right - 'every line rhymes with every other' would suggest AA. I guess just 'every other lines rhymes' or 'uses an alternating rhyme scheme' would cover ABAB. I think it's just worded a bit awkwardly.
Perhaps 'all lines use the same rhyme' / 'uses a mono-rhyme scheme' or something, would be clearer.
Post by: Knight Otu on February 16, 2015, 03:34:15 pm
Post by: Toady One on February 16, 2015, 04:21:21 pm
Post by: WordsandChaos on February 16, 2015, 04:50:40 pm
Post by: Dirst on February 16, 2015, 05:11:06 pm
(monorhymes are much less common now, and I've changed the monorhyme wording to "The ending of every line of the poem shares the same rhyme.")Yes, we should save our AAAAAAAAAAA's for screams of terror when our dwarves come up against opponents for which they are woefully unprepared.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on February 17, 2015, 09:31:01 pm
The poem/story "The lay of Leithian" had over 4000 lines ... again being left unfinished to being later turned into prose.
Maybe its a bit late to say this but i for one wouldnt mind a work consisting out of 1000 and more Stanzas. Maybe call it an "epic" and let it be something akin to an Artifact.
Post by: tps12 on February 17, 2015, 10:37:20 pm
Post by: Toady One on February 17, 2015, 11:30:20 pm
Post by: Button on February 18, 2015, 12:04:28 am
I interpreted the "some specific hundreds of thousands of stanzas" problem to mean like a form that requires exactly 314159 stanzas of 26 lines each or something.
I see what you did there. 5 internets to you.
Post by: Dirst on February 18, 2015, 06:52:16 am
I interpreted the "some specific hundreds of thousands of stanzas" problem to mean like a form that requires exactly 314159 stanzas of 26 lines each or something."But I tell you what the Queen wants is impossible. The story of her mandate to create floodgates in our desert fortress cannot be told in less than 314160 stanzas! Art bows not to any dwarf!"
Post by: Authority2 on February 18, 2015, 08:48:45 am
New sigquote.I interpreted the "some specific hundreds of thousands of stanzas" problem to mean like a form that requires exactly 314159 stanzas of 26 lines each or something."But I tell you what the Queen wants is impossible. The story of her mandate to create floodgates in our desert fortress cannot be told in less than 314160 stanzas! Art bows not to any dwarf!"
Post by: Cruxador on February 18, 2015, 12:27:26 pm
I know that as an initial release, it's likely to be at its most fundamental, but I'm also interested in the future, and oppositional poetry (or music, like rock-offs or the dixie style of dueling banjos and whatnot) seems like really great fodder for interesting stories.
Post by: CrzyMonkeyNinja on February 18, 2015, 04:12:31 pm
-snip-
( music, like rock-offs or the dixie style of dueling banjos and whatnot) seems like really great fodder for interesting stories.
I must agree, especially considering how frequent musical challenges are in some mythologies.
Post by: Dirst on February 18, 2015, 04:44:35 pm
The demon went down to Bur-Cabor the Trees of Pitch, he was looking for a soul to steal.-snip-
( music, like rock-offs or the dixie style of dueling banjos and whatnot) seems like really great fodder for interesting stories.
I must agree, especially considering how frequent musical challenges are in some mythologies.
He was in a bind 'cos he was way behind and he was willin' to make a deal.
When he came across this young man sawin' on a fiddle and playin' it hot.
And the demon jumped upon a hickory stump and said: "Boy let me tell you what:
"I guess you didn't know it, but I'm a fiddle player too.
"And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
"Now you play a pretty good fiddle, boy, but give this demon his due:
"I bet a fiddle of gold against your soul, 'cos I think I'm better than you."
The boy said: "My name's Urist and it might be a sin,
"But I'll take your bet, your gonna regret, 'cos I'm the best that's ever been."
Post by: Authority2 on February 18, 2015, 08:47:55 pm
Post by: Max™ on February 18, 2015, 09:44:18 pm
It is full of spelling errors and any rhymes are completely accidental. It has been written in a circular form due to a misunderstanding involving the accidental inclusion of the number pi in the verse number from a popular type of epic in the southern lands.
Post by: Urist McGoombaBrother on February 20, 2015, 11:42:22 pm
Post by: Putnam on February 21, 2015, 12:17:51 am
Currently there are many materials, reactions and nearly all workshops hardcoded. The glass industry might be a good example. Are there any plans to un-hardcode some of those? Also any plans to enable multi-level workshops for modding? I mean by that to be able to mod in a workship with a multi-level-structure similar to the metalsmith forge, where you first select a material (Iron, Steel, ...), then a category (weapon, armour, ...) and finally a product (short sword, axe, ...).
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/dwarves/#2015-02-05
reactions can now be categorized within shop menus and they can provide information during job selection to stop it all from being overwhelming.
Post by: Urist McGoombaBrother on February 21, 2015, 12:53:00 am
edit: And will this allow to e.g. just define categories like Material X, Material Y, Material Z and Product A, B, C, D, E. And then each of the 5 products will be automatically assigned to each of the 3 categories without having to create fifteen individual reactions?
Was there some statement regarding un-hardcode certain stuff or extend the various stockpile tokens like wood, stone, no-stone-stockpile, etc. too?
Post by: Putnam on February 21, 2015, 02:03:47 am
Post by: Noodz on February 22, 2015, 10:26:31 am
Post by: Knight Otu on February 22, 2015, 10:58:59 am
Will banquets be an aspect of the new entertainment system? When agriculture is given a new look, will there be a harvest feast? What about religious banquets?So far we've heard nothing that says that feasts and banquets are part of the tavern updates, but the old dev page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html) mentioned them for the better parties bloat, so if they aren't part of the tavern updates, they should come into play some time:
Quote
Bloat92, BETTER PARTIES, (Future): Official and commemorative parties. If it is a party for a unit, they can invite friends and family. If it is an official party, it can start from the top nobles and go down. There can be organized feasts and so on.
Post by: vlademir1 on February 22, 2015, 11:37:30 pm
Anyway I came with purpose:
Is there any intent at this point to integrate elements of the poetic form generator with the music generator for lyrical styles when voice is called for in the song format?
Post by: Knight Otu on February 23, 2015, 05:44:17 am
Man has it been ages since I bothered to log in :(
Anyway I came with purpose:
Is there any intent at this point to integrate elements of the poetic form generator with the music generator for lyrical styles when voice is called for in the song format?
I think this quote answers your question:
Quote from: smjjamesWill they also sing along to the music? You know, like drinking songs, or just folksy songs, or even bard songs.
Yeah, singing. It's going to be tied to the poetic forms as well.
Post by: Mason11987 on February 23, 2015, 09:40:38 am
Post by: abculatter_2 on February 24, 2015, 02:50:36 am
Post by: Knight Otu on February 24, 2015, 11:47:51 am
Are there any plans for a music audio synthesizer, so we can press a button and hear a generated song in-game? Or be able to see the individual notes of the song? Or are songs not that in-depth?Just like poems, songs are not going to be that in-depth. It'd be even harder to get them right.
Post by: abculatter_2 on February 25, 2015, 08:23:37 pm
Yeah, in hindsight that did seem kind of a ridiculous expectation.Are there any plans for a music audio synthesizer, so we can press a button and hear a generated song in-game? Or be able to see the individual notes of the song? Or are songs not that in-depth?Just like poems, songs are not going to be that in-depth. It'd be even harder to get them right.
Post by: LordBaal on February 26, 2015, 07:05:45 am
Post by: DVNO on February 26, 2015, 02:29:05 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on February 26, 2015, 03:56:31 pm
And there is still the manual option of breaking out the ol' acoustic guitar and letting out some chords to generate the song being outlined as well. Honestly that sounds like a fun meta-game in itself to me. :)
I look forward to hearing people's take on the various songs!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 26, 2015, 04:22:05 pm
And there is still the manual option of breaking out the ol' acoustic guitar and letting out some chords to generate the song being outlined as well. Honestly that sounds like a fun meta-game in itself to me. :)
I look forward to hearing people's take on the various songs!
5 internets for the first to post a song played on the correct Dwarven instrument.
This is a granite 9-string, it menaces with spikes of alpaca wool...
Post by: Mel_Vixen on February 26, 2015, 08:20:24 pm
Post by: Dirst on February 26, 2015, 11:34:46 pm
Well there are some autocomposing (List on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_composition#Software)) programs out there (maybe even libraries?) so if we can export the descriptions and a bit of context one could maybe use a 3rd party program to generate the songs and then reimport them to soundsense.Oh, so that's what pouring magma onto kittens sounds like!
Post by: Shashu on February 26, 2015, 11:46:04 pm
Quote
And here are some of the musical forms from a medium world
Whoa. Worth the wait.
Post by: Willfor on February 27, 2015, 12:53:16 am
There will be some challenges ahead.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 27, 2015, 02:50:55 am
Please tell me I'm wrong and this will be a somewhat useful part of the game.
Post by: Inarius on February 27, 2015, 02:58:58 am
Quote
somewhat useful part of the game.
Well, does the name of the necromancer books or the region you visit, or the color, length of hair and scratching nose and name of the dwarves is important ?
Post by: PTTG?? on February 27, 2015, 03:07:46 am
Quotesomewhat useful part of the game.
Well, does the name of the necromancer books or the region you visit, or the color, length of hair and scratching nose and name of the dwarves is important ?
Names of items and places are essential to identify what NPCs are talking about, and point taken about biographical details... but still, if you're telling a story about a game, you might pause to tell your audience that the dwarf who was swinging around that masterwork sock had long blond hair, but you probably aren't going to mention the musical stylings of a fort nearly as frequently.
I suppose it's subjective. For me, song detail beyond "it's an upbeat song played on stone bongos" is more fine-grained than I can imagine using.
Post by: Putnam on February 27, 2015, 03:36:29 am
Also, since when was
save the king or something.
ever what the game was about? It's a fantasy world simulator. It generates cultures. Music styles are a ludicrously, ridiculously, incredibly important part of culture. I cannot emphasize this enough. I am not sure if there's a single culture on the planet Earth that does not have music as a part of its culture.
Post by: Fieari on February 27, 2015, 03:38:28 am
But mostly, I'm looking forwards to seeing fans attempting to create instances of their fortress's music. The poetry that's come out so far has already been superb.
Post by: Nopenope on February 27, 2015, 05:10:21 am
Toady has stated before that languages are not his speciality and he may want to delegate them to somebody in the community who is better with such things. If this is in the next release, he may want to look to modders to help him with language raws.
Didn't Threetoe major in ancient languages or something?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 27, 2015, 05:13:29 am
Just imagine, far traveling Lollo the Minstrel arrives at the fort and blows everyone's minds by playing the bongos in a way no Dwarf in this part of the world has ever heard. Old folks grumble about lack of respect (bongos being used exclusively at funerals in these parts), kids ditch work and cut their hair like Lollo. Culture spreads...
And if that all sounds boring, don't worry, apparently it all links in to martial arts and stances in the end. :)
Post by: Knight Otu on February 27, 2015, 05:53:47 am
It seems pretty odd that when notes and beats and such are named, the names aren't chosen randomly, but sequentially from the language file (cuthefi - cede - otoga are axe - back - bad for example), but I'm guessing that's temporary
Post by: Henny on February 27, 2015, 08:48:46 am
Post by: JimiD on February 27, 2015, 08:49:54 am
Post by: Naryar on February 27, 2015, 10:05:39 am
The music just needs to have a simple description.
I mean, that is fine:
Code: [Select]
A devotional form of music directed toward the worship of Nokor Bonehell the Fate of Witches originating in The Glaze of Belts. The rules of the form are applied by composers of individual songs. The music is played on a tangath and a nish. It is performed in the agek rhythm.
The tangath always does the main melody, should be graceful and glides from note to note.
The nish always does the main melody and should be made sweetly.
The form has a well-defined multi-passage structure: a brief introduction and a brief theme and a brief series of variations on the theme possibly all repeated.
The introduction accelerates as it proceeds, and it is to become softer and softer. The passage is performed using the bemong scale.
The theme is slow, and it is to be very soft. The passage is performed using the bemong scale.
The series of variations slows and broadens, and it is to become softer and softer. The passage is performed using the berim scale. One could make something simpler but I suppose a bit of fluff is good.
then it becomes overly complex
Code: [Select]
Scales are conceived of as two chords built using a division of the perfect fourth interval into eight notes. The tonic note is fixed only at the time of performance.
As always, the bemong heptatonic scale is thought of as two disjoint chords drawn from the fundamental division of the perfect fourth. These chords are named anam and izeg.
The anam tetrachord is the 1st, the 3rd, the 5th and the 8th degrees of the fundamental perfect fourth division.
The izeg tetrachord is the 1st, the 4th, the 7th and the 8th degrees of the fundamental perfect fourth division.
As always, the berim heptatonic scale is thought of as two disjoint chords drawn from the fundamental division of the perfect fourth. These chords are named mabdug and izeg.
The mabdug tetrachord is the 1st, the 2nd, the 5th and the 8th degrees of the fundamental perfect fourth division.
The agek rhythm is a single line with thirty-two beats divided into four bars in a 8-8-8-8 pattern. The beats are named ucat (spoken uc), ngarak (nga), enir (en), ugath (ug), lisig (li), etag (et), erong (er) and osed (os). The beat is stressed as follows:
| - x x - X - - - | x - - x x ! x - | X x x - x - - - | - X x - x - x - |
where ! marks the primary accent, X marks an accented beat, x is a beat, - is silent and | indicates a bar.i mean what
Complexity is only good if it is meaningful. If it is only complexity for complexity's sake, and not for gameplay's/story's sake, it becomes a chore.
I'll take the creatures in DF example. If an animal is not here because it is an important part of gameplay (keas for their stealing and fun potential, elephants for war elephants or eventually work elephants, cats, dogs, GCS, etc) and/or important part of fluff (ravens for their symbolic power, elephants because they are highly symbolic and should be very important to civilizations that domesticate them, elk for being both symbolic and important grazers and prey) and/or memetic status in DF (carp, giant sponge, etc), then it should not be in DF and just causes clutter. (I'm looking at you, giant thrips or peach-faced lovebird men.)
Same for all other features. Adding various forms of crafting, lots of forms of crafting even is fine, considering dwarves ARE "fond of industry".
Are we going to describe the color, form and shape of the crystals contained into each single granite wall in my fort next ?
Post by: Urist Arrhenius on February 27, 2015, 10:11:36 am
Post by: reality.auditor on February 27, 2015, 10:27:03 am
Post by: Man In Zero G on February 27, 2015, 10:39:22 am
So if you don't care about the long, detailed description; don't look for it and you're not gonna be bothered with having to read it ever.
The really funny part of all this is how people have been gushing for days about how cool it would be to use the music descriptions to auto-generate DF music with software or by hand... Then Toady gives us descriptions with exactly the amount and type of information that would needed to actually start to be able to do it - and people complain about "too much detail".
Post by: Neonivek on February 27, 2015, 10:42:11 am
Yep, these details are complete, utter overkill. Ah well.
It kind of is... It sounds more written for a text book on advanced music theory.
Than it is something to be explained to someone trying to understand it.
Heck imagine if someone described Jazz that way? Or a song.
really funny part of all this is how people have been gushing for days about how cool it would be to use the music descriptions to auto-generate DF music with software or by hand... Then Toady gives us descriptions with exactly the amount and type of information that would needed to actually start to be able to do it - and people complain about "too much detail".
For me it isn't about "Too much detail"
It is about no details I can use. I can certainly describe genres of music, songs, instruments, poems, or types of poems... but by far that is not QUITE how I would describe them unless I was writing an essay.
So I think it needs MORE details... some we can use.
Post by: Man In Zero G on February 27, 2015, 10:52:13 am
So I think it needs MORE details... some we can use.
I definitely agree with you there. Like I said, to musical experts who understand the terminology, these descriptions are probably amazing; to the layman though, they are a pretty dense read. Some rephrasing for the average Urist would definitely be welcome - there's not a problem with too much detail, clearer language is what's needed.
Post by: Dirst on February 27, 2015, 10:55:01 am
I think that Man in Zero G's point was that these details would allow a piece of software to generate random songs that a human would recognize as being the same style. Now, whether it's meaningful to a typical human player is a different matter. If a player only wants to scan the first few lines of a description for a broad overview, then just don't scroll down.really funny part of all this is how people have been gushing for days about how cool it would be to use the music descriptions to auto-generate DF music with software or by hand... Then Toady gives us descriptions with exactly the amount and type of information that would needed to actually start to be able to do it - and people complain about "too much detail".
For me it isn't about "Too much detail"
It is about no details I can use. I can certainly describe genres of music, songs, instruments, poems, or types of poems... but by far that is not QUITE how I would describe them unless I was writing an essay.
So I think it needs MORE details... some we can use.
It's only overkill if it adversely affects gameplay in an FPS or memory-consuming sense. We're well past worrying if a world's savefile will fit on a hard drive.
Post by: Untelligent on February 27, 2015, 11:16:09 am
I think that Man in Zero G's point was that these details would allow a piece of software to generate random songs that a human would recognize as being the same style.
And perhaps one day Dwarf Fortress itself will be able to generate .midis from these details. Gotta plan ahead for these things.
Post by: Baffler on February 27, 2015, 12:11:56 pm
Quote
The music is played on a tangath and a nish. It is performed in the agek rhythm.
That doesn't mean anything right now, and it's really important to understanding the form. Descriptions are going in of the instruments, but the rhythmic structures, and in some cases source poetry, aren't mentioned. Unless they're listed separately somewhere we can easily access, that might be a problem.
Post by: Knight Otu on February 27, 2015, 12:23:21 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on February 27, 2015, 02:45:01 pm
The really funny part of all this is how people have been gushing for days about how cool it would be to use the music descriptions to auto-generate DF music with software or by hand... Then Toady gives us descriptions with exactly the amount and type of information that would needed to actually start to be able to do it - and people complain about "too much detail".
Point of order, they aren't the same people.
Post by: Miuramir on February 27, 2015, 03:08:41 pm
* This is probably in progress, but a quick reminder note of what general type of instrument each is would be good. Even the very basic info ("reed aerophone") would give a starting idea, and a bit more detail would be good (e.g. "conical bore double-reed aerophone in an upper register" would let us go "well, it's sort of vaguely oboe-ish".)
* I am concerned that the rhythms described appear to be disjunct from the meter of the poetry (where present). I would think that if you're dealing with writing music to a poem, there would be some sort of routine that would give it decent odds of having the rhythm(s) based on variants of multiples or divisors of the stress of the poetic meter. (Or, conversely, in cases where the music comes first, create a poetic form that lines up well with it.)
* Toady mentioned something about improvements to vocals, but one point is that there doesn't seem to be a way to readily describe certain sorts of actual choral music in the current structure.
** I think there needs to be a "chorus" block that represents one-or-more singers doing a task. E.g. you might try and describe something typically Western as "A singer in a high register sometimes does the main melody and sometimes is silent; a chorus in a middle register sometimes does the main melody and sometimes provides harmony; a chorus in a lower register provides harmony and rhythm, and should accent the beat."
** As alluded above, "silent" needs to be an option, for pieces that have a soloist for some parts but not a lead vocalist (or instrumentalist) for the whole thing.
* There doesn't seem to be a way to represent non-vocal, non-instrumental human noises, which are a big part of various musical styles (particularly early ones). Hand clapping, finger snapping, foot stomping, and so on should be in as rhythm choices at least.
* The rhythms tend to be extremely complex, and involve long, eccentric patterns. I'm not saying these are beyond examples of human music, because there's some pretty weird stuff out there... but statistically speaking, I think the generator needs to be tuned to prefer forms that are comprehensible and performable by ordinary folks a bit more. In particular for styles and uses that in-game are supposed to be used by ordinary dwarves.
* Similarly, "common folk" songs should probably dial back on the ornaments a bit. We're getting a lot of trills, grace notes, arpeggios, etc. for someone who's not a professional opera singer equivalent.
* Historical music that changes *scale systems* (not just key) in mid-song is pretty rare as I understand it. Among other things, before valves and modern keyboard instruments it is difficult to produce instruments that even do multiple keys, and multiple scale systems in the same song would be demanding and rare. A society that relies primarily on vocals and/or true chromatic instruments might be an exception. In our world, IIRC that would primarily be the early organ variants, such as the ancient Greek hydraulis.
Post by: Footkerchief on February 27, 2015, 03:25:57 pm
And perhaps one day Dwarf Fortress itself will be able to generate .midis from these details. Gotta plan ahead for these things.
Given the precision of the chords and rhythms, it looks pretty damn close. Arrange the chords into some kind of progression, arpeggiate them as per the beat, and run them through placeholder instruments... I think that would do it?
It would be a shame to have all those words and no sound.
Post by: Robsoie on February 27, 2015, 03:40:06 pm
Complexity is only good if it is meaningful. If it is only complexity for complexity's sake, and not for gameplay's/story's sake, it becomes a chore.Agreed 100% , when it serves the storytelling, it's great, when it's not, it's just overkill for complexity sake.
By example, there are descriptions in current DF that are lacking and do not live up to the potential of their purpose in term of story telling, so much they would be more worth than music when it comes to story telling .
In one of my most long 40.x adventure, i managed to get into a necromancer tower, and found 2 books that sounded like they had some actual storytelling worth :
(http://i.imgur.com/niqtc9C.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/J3hiTB3.gif)
But that was all for the description, only "an appetizer" instead of actively telling me a summary of what this was really about.
So i had to cheat and check the legends by fakely-retiring my guy, so i can access the legend mode and finally cross the various information of it to actually figure out what was going on with these intriguing book subjects.
And see that the elf in question was an herbalist that wandered from elven places to other elven places and finally became the druid of his last destination, still wandering he defeated a goblin but on one of his travel was then killed by a night creature.
The corpse of that druid was found by the necromancer author of the book and was then raised to undeath, and checking at the dates, it really looks like that was the 1st named undead the necromancer created, making the creature of some importance to that necromancer, as i can imagine for story telling purpose this was his first success and display of power, a milestone in his life.
Basically lots of interesting story telling stuff ... the kind of description that should be in the description of the books themselves instead of forcing you to retire/save cheat and go check the legends, because they're meaningfull in understanding the characters stories, and who the necromancer is (well was due to the bugs) .
Post by: Knight Otu on February 27, 2015, 03:50:36 pm
* This is probably in progress, but a quick reminder note of what general type of instrument each is would be good. Even the very basic info ("reed aerophone") would give a starting idea, and a bit more detail would be good (e.g. "conical bore double-reed aerophone in an upper register" would let us go "well, it's sort of vaguely oboe-ish".)Yeah, Toady specifically notes that the instruments will be described in the forms in the final version of the descriptions, and that more general instrument requirements (I guess in the form of "a metallic wind instrument") will become possible as well.
* Similarly, "common folk" songs should probably dial back on the ornaments a bit. We're getting a lot of trills, grace notes, arpeggios, etc. for someone who's not a professional opera singer equivalent.I'm guessing that's where the note comes into play that Toady only took one musical form from each civilization, and that some forms of civilizations are closer to the Bald Vessel form in complexity.
Post by: Appelgren on February 27, 2015, 04:05:17 pm
But I can't wrap my head around the unusual scale systems (like dividing the octave into 24 notes and then building random tetrachords). It comes dangerously close to being"grey goop" for me. Or intriguingly alien but ultimately samey goop. Adding some familiar scales/modes to the mix would make the random scale systems more interesting to me.. Just like forgotten beasts seem more special in a world where theres also ordinary bears, cats and capybaras etc.
Post by: Man In Zero G on February 27, 2015, 04:32:16 pm
Point of order, they aren't the same people.Didn't mean to imply that they were, it was meant as further illustration of my point: What's important to some players is not to others. The technical parts are important to the people who want to try to actually make this music, but not to the people who don't care about it.
The "funny" part of it is: these details, like practically all cosmetic details in DF, are something we're likely to have to go into a separate screen to look for. In other words, the presence or absence or these details will not negatively affect the people who don't want to see them beyond "I'm not going to press that key... but if I do, I won't scroll down". Whereas their absence would negatively impact the people who're jazzed about actually making this music, and their presence can only enhance these player's experience. If the removal of a detail will not affect your game experience, but will harm another player's, why ask for it? The complaints about the quantity or complexity of the detail seem kind of silly in that light.
All that said, sure, the wording and descriptions could be clearer. Absolutely. And that can be done without losing the level of detail.
It's also the first draft he's shown and it even says "subject to change!" right there at the top. This stuff is not exactly how we're gonna see it when it gets to us. It's still being refined.
Post by: thvaz on February 27, 2015, 04:54:40 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on February 27, 2015, 07:21:07 pm
I enjoyed figuring out the cross-rhythms/polyrhythms (I'm a huge Captain Beefheart fan).
But I can't wrap my head around the unusual scale systems (like dividing the octave into 24 notes and then building random tetrachords). It comes dangerously close to being"grey goop" for me. Or intriguingly alien but ultimately samey goop. Adding some familiar scales/modes to the mix would make the random scale systems more interesting to me.. Just like forgotten beasts seem more special in a world where theres also ordinary bears, cats and capybaras etc.
It seems to have solid precedent. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtonal_music#History)
Also, this one looks fairly conventional:
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/dwarves/early_musical_forms.html
The uto hexatonic scale is thought of as two disjoint chords spanning two perfect fourths. These chords are named ngub and ozse.
The ngub trichord is the 1st, the 5th and the 6th degrees of the semitone octave scale.
The ozse tetrachord is the 8th, the 10th, the 11th and the 13th (completing the octave) degrees of the semitone octave scale.
Post by: WordsandChaos on February 27, 2015, 07:29:12 pm
The Elder Scrolls series has a hundred odd books that didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. Diablo II and III had a bunch of superfluous dialogue options/random bits of lore that gave backstory and info into the world and didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. The Lord of the Rings, Song of Ice and Fire, Warhammer, Snow Crash, Moby Dick, and thousands of other bits of media include other bits of 'fluff' that don't directly impact the main focus of the game/book/experience, but would make each thing more shallow if those bits of lore and fluff, etc, were missing.
Here's the fantastic thing about all of it: it's optional. It's not shoved into your face. You have to actively make an effort to go and look at it, and you can ignore it if you're not interested. And if you aren't that's fine. Not everyone read the pages and pages concerning who was wearing what suit made by which company in American Psycho. Not everyone read any of the books in the Elder Scrolls. Not everyone gave a damn about the pages upon pages of derail on whatever topic in Snow crash. The point is that some people were interested and did. This is why the Silmarillion, the World of Ice and Fire book, or the Black Library exists:
Because some like to delve deeper.
Post by: Toady One on February 27, 2015, 09:44:10 pm
Quote
Quote from: Urist McGoombaBrotherAny plans to extend the 256 ASCII-Tiles in the future? Probably to 512 or even unlimited tiles for optical differences. As there are so many tiles having multi-uses, it is quite confusing sometimes. I am not referring to adding graphics, just implementing other tiles not included in the ASCII e.g. horizontal brackets/letters or something like that. Same regarding colours. Any plans to increase them from 16 to e.g. 256 colours or even 24-bit? Some parts of the code like the color-definiton tokens seem to support them already. Or will that cause major recoding?
...
I am not referring to graphics, which for sure will cause major and long time dedicated work. Just extending it from 256 tiles to some more. Additional tiles could be derived from e.g. UNICODE. I am no specialist regarding copyright. But as most of the UNICODE-tiles are from various recent/historic alphabets, I can't believe they are more restricted than ASCII.Quote from: lethosorBesides, moving to Unicode would require rewriting a large portion of the display code that relies on 8-bit display tiles.
Even a basic addition of another character page is not a rewrite I feel comfortable doing. The DF part is fine -- it'd take a while, but I could do the DF side of it once I knew what data to push where. However, I have no idea how to set up additional texture atlases while still keeping the speed up in OpenGL, assuming it wouldn't require a completely different approach, so I can't really start. It's way on the back burner for this reason. The game could probably use another thousand characters at this point to remove fundamental overlaps. That's potentially independent of the item graphics problem, though they both run into the texture atlas issue (if you want more than a few item pictures). Item pictures are also complicated by material considerations -- those aren't prohibitive, but take us into graphics territory that I don't want to get mired in.
Quote from: Manzeenan
If temples are affected by material wealth within its zones and number of worshippers will there be a chance for positive blessings such as attribute/skill boost? Or is this related to artifacts? Also will dieties bless the fort with materilas/objects such as the procedurally genereated ones, will certain deities be more likely to gift certain materials eg. god of gems gives some rare gems?
I don't have a specific positive effects plan in place right now. It's kind of lumped in with magic.
Quote from: Heph
You mentioned that we might get the occasional Human elf or goblin on our doorsteps, will your fort be a possible destination for refugees?
The obstacle isn't the multi-species fort stuff so much as the number of people for that one, which is more of a hill-dwarf problem. If I remember, the refugees can already choose your fort as a destination for camping next to, but they don't actually enter the fort. It'll probably be best to put that one off until we have the broader infrastructure in place for hill-dwarves (which are just a group of numerous associated critters living near the fort).
Quote from: Putnam
QuoteThey walk over the land on a path avoiding waterDoes this mean that (invaders) avoid rivers? If so, will they simply give up if the fort is surrounded by rivers, or will they just go right over?
Ah, yeah, I should have been less vague -- Knight Otu clarified that I meant oceans and lakes. The bridging/fording problem is being ignored until we dig in a bit. Overall the regional pathfinding should be a lot easier than the fort pathing. Even though we don't have the map at every resolution away from the play area, it doesn't change that often and the effect of bridges etc. can be tracked. It already knows river width everywhere.
Quote from: Cruxador
Are temple effects on immigration on the table for the tavern release? What about pilgrimages? By immigration effects, I mean things like getting more worshippers of a certain god if you have a big temple to it, or more devout worshipers if you have awesome temples in general. It seems like it would be more crucial for start scenarios where making a temple to a god is your primary goal, but on the other hand it could be a relatively low-hanging fruit. Pilgrimages on the other hand, fit quite perfectly with the "temporary visitor" idea being dealt with in the tavern release, but if they're to be relic-oriented like medieval Christian pilgrimages, it might make more sense to wait until some more artifact stuff is done.
It's possible -- as you say, it's a low-hanging fruit. Those are numerous though, now, with all of the additions. I'd put even odds on something basic to put some meat on the new temple locations, though they won't achieve parity with taverns yet.
Quote from: Majoras123
Will there ever be magical songs to control your enemies and bolster your allies ala D&D Bards?
As with other "ever" questions, it's really hard to say, and magic is sort of an amorphous blob in the future, but we're one step closer to that now by actually having songs, anyway, he he he. Magic will certainly profit by having all of these different threads to work with when we get there, and it'll be a fun challenge to generate intricate and interconnected systems that use the elements at our disposal.
Quote from: Vivalas
Will military squad orders be updated along with the new justice system. For example, will the kill order be replaced with an attack order, where you can set the terms of engagement for your troops. The options would be something like, non-lethal, lethal, and no-quarter, so that you could target your own dwarfs without loyalty cascades and maybe attempt to capture invaders like goblins or kobolds. I was thinking being able to quell riots and beat dwarves would be fun along the lines of running a totalitarian fort.
Will there be prison zones, so you could have rooms designated for prisoners, like holding cells and cells. Would this be considered as part of the prison colony scenario? Will we be able to shackle, torture, and restrain prisoners based on civ ethics?
I don't anticipate doing anything with justice/military for this time, depending on how drunks work out, but when we get deeper into the law stuff we'll see some changes. It's too far off to speculate exactly which ones.
Quote from: Greiger
With the look into the multi tile critters and the pathfinding changes that will require, were there any thoughts on tackling other parts of the pathfinding that is a bit lackluster? Like flier pathfinding, or things like one way or grasp_required kinds of pathfinding that came up back when ropes for climbing was mentioned?
And second just in-case that first one does get thrown out. Will races without alcohol_dependent eventually take offence when visiting your fortress if there is no water whatsoever available, or will they perfectly happy to drink mug after mug like water like our dwarves do?
So far the general pathing experiments have all fizzled, and the only idea on the table for multi-tile pathers is them not being bright about long distances and using all available data for short distances -- like fliers.
I'm really not sure how the foray into drunkenness is going to go yet. Some responsible parties may draw the line, but our critters have never been good at that. I'll be happy enough to see the visitors served at all for now.
Quote from: EternallySlaying
With the advent of Taverns, will some people who come in be lone/small groups of merchants? Obviously if they start coming in force as soon as you declare a tavern zone, it would mean a constant supply of things for rock goods; but if they only came with enough export profit, it could balance.
With music and such, will some people sell services for goods. Like paying for a performance(s) with trinkets, or for a traveling weaponsmith to work for roughly 10% of what he makes (or some other agreed upon condition)? On that note, if you have a renowned legendary flute-dwarf, can you sell his services for goods?
I read earlier that music can increase the bravery of dwarves, assuming this is true, Will we be able to assign military music dwarves? So we can march in to the beat of the drum British style, or a flute Spartan style?
We won't see little groups of traveling merchants for a while -- there's the hill dwarf side of that (as they visit you as the market center) and the "economy/caravan" side of that. Neither one is going in for the tavern release.
We are hoping to have some sort of exchange for visitors staying on and doing something for you. I'm not as sure about farming out your own people.
Military music is important, but sadly neglected so far. I'm not sure what's going to happen there either.
Quote from: Broken
Now that we will have temples, will we got a way to commision art works of a certain theme in demand? To be able to make
appropiate engravings and statues, without depending of the whims of the rng?
That's still a separate dev item, but it's up on the dev page. The main minor obstacle is just setting up an interface for it. Not sure when.
Quote
Quote from: HephWill there be immigrants or dwarfs that are or choose to be priests, preaching to the people in your temple? How about barmaids/bartenders and wenches?Quote from: ButtonIf we have wenches, can we also have... male wenches? Whatever the male equivalent of a wench is.
I don't know the extent to which we'll be messing with the religious stuff. It won't be the focus until later. We should see a number of things going on in the tavern, but they are interesting new jobs that don't really have analogs elsewhere in the fortress -- somewhere between the artisan/labor professions and entity position appointments. I'm still mulling over exactly how they are going to function, be filled and be described. Certain aspects of it might need to punted for the status/etc. framework, or they might be the vanguard for it.
Quote from: Jordan~
Are there any plans to allow greater control over surface features in the raws - e.g. defining rock features, day/night cycles, light levels and other climatic conditions, and so forth? Roughly how far down the line might that be? For instance, will modders ever be able to make worlds in which it's always day or always night, there are no mountains, there's a ceiling instead of a sky, the world is divided into chambers, the sun is green, there are four moons, etc. etc.?
Once world generation has any variation in those things, it'll be possible. I don't have a timeline for any of it. The test myth generator contains certain implications along these lines, and we'll have to see how that interacts with world generation parameters and other raws when I glue it all together. In any case, getting interesting fantasy-type world spanning features and other oddness is a goal. It might be the push I need to get regular canyons in the game, he he he.
Quote from: Vattic
Will mugs get a non-trade use with the new taverns?
Will dwarves still drink from barrels?
We're hopeful for mugs and goblets and so on. A dwarf without easy access to a cup will probably still guzzle like a bear.
Quote from: toboo123
relating to the talk of multi-tile creatures do you plan on changing how size influences combat such a giants attack hitting multiple dwarves and hitting their entire body or making it so a warhammer can't instantly cave in the entire skull of a massive creature.
That would be on the menu when we get to the overall change, yeah.
Quote from: BenLubar
(regarding body size)
Why did you decide to make the raws use a different scale in the text files than in the game?
If I remember, there were 32 bit variables being blown out by multiplications for the largest creatures all over the place and I didn't want to track them all down.
Quote from: Putnam
(on reaction categories)
Is there finalized syntax for that yet, or will that have to wait?
It's fixed assuming it doesn't get any more interesting. In any reaction's def, assign it to a category with [CATEGORY:<token>].
[CATEGORY:<token>]
[CATEGORY_NAME:<text>]
[CATEGORY_DESCRIPTION:<text>]
[CATEGORY_PARENT:<token>]
[CATEGORY_KEY:<key>]
The subtokens to define the category's details just need to appear below the CATEGORY somewhere once. The nesting can go as deeply as needed. It only shows reaction categories in the relevant workshops if your fort's entity has a permitted reaction within the category nesting, which will hopefully avoid some clutter in complicated mods. We'll have to see what else is necessary as we go. Things like material assignments linked to categories (to handle stuff like glass coming out into the raws) are elevated to "low-hanging fruit" status now, but aren't in the game.
Quote from: Zarathustra30
How do procedurally-generated buildable instruments work? Is there a new [buildable] "token" in the generated raws, or are there additional buildings for each large instrument?
If it is a token, will modders have access?
Can we assign dwarves to play music or do they merry-make only by their own accord?
Instruments can get [PLACED_AS_BUILDING], which allows them to be placed as other furniture. It hasn't been generalized to other item types, since instruments didn't get turned into tools.
There aren't official musical assignments at this point. I'm not sure how things will work later when there'll be more structure/roles in place. Once tavern jobs are more sorted there could be something.
Quote from: Heph
Did i get that right that subassemblies of an instrument have now theyr own material, thus we get a alder violine with steel strings? If so can those decoration-like subassemblies be raw-defined for objects and could we then add properties to them?
They are just for instruments now, as an improvement type which can be used in reactions. Generalizing to everything was tempting, but too big a fish to fry for now, time-wise. We still don't have a true multi-material item in the sense that multiple materials are recognized as equal parts of the item. That's a hard rewrite given the pervasiveness of having a single item material throughout everything.
Quote from: Cruxador
When, if ever, might pipe organs be on the table? Or are they just to ancillary? Would you want to wait for restructuring of the mechanism system before getting into transferal of air pressure, or what kind of things might hinder this?
There are little hand-held ones in the game (based on the real-life portative organ), and we also currently have double-a-dwarf size building ones (complete with bellows -- though I'm not sure it'll require a second operator yet, kind of depends how dances turn out), but anything requiring multiple tiles will have to wait for the restructuring yeah, and probably more. It might be tricky to get it to understand how a water flow (for example, in the hydraulic ones) causes pipes to sound, assuming we'd need to pay attention to that level of detail, and I don't know that we'll ever have an air pressure model -- it's potentially very expensive. With the one-tile building instruments, that's all hand-waved away, which is good for now.
Quote from: Fieari
If you need to have learned (or at least heard) a music style, or poetical style, before using it-- how are new styles generated? Would a new type of strange mood create a style, or are they only created on day one of worldgen?
I haven't done any of the post-day-one stuff yet, so we'll have to see. They get a number of styles to start, and I figured there would have to be some generated in world gen by bards etc. as it goes, so that they can intermingle (there are already variables for instance to make a poetic form based on a specific song rather than a musical form, and all other permutations -- then you could have a class of poem "sung to the tune of X" and so on). I'm not sure what'll make it in post-wg in terms of composition and new inventions of art forms. It's not any more difficult than doing it in world gen, really, but we never get to all of the easy stuff on the first pass.
Quote from: Baffler
with multiracial forts coming into play for the next release, will it be possible to define multiracial entities as well?
It'd be a large rewrite, since the "race" variable for entity definitions is scattered all over the place. I'm going to deal with a lot of those dependencies just to get the multispecies forts running, and we'll see where we are when that work is done. Good fortune would be a full gutting, but I'm going to skip what I can for time. I'm not sure what a multiracial raw def would mean in terms of starting pops. It would be easiest just to split it in half/etc. I guess, though the test myth generator's interweaved stories of various critter origins is a large wrench in this process that might be worth waiting for.
Quote from: King_of_Baboons
With the possibility of multiracial entities being added in the near future,will it be possible to have interracial marriages between 2 different races and maybe some sort of hybridization as well?(half-elves and half-goblins?)
Vattic brought up the hybrid quote -- it's a difficult problem. The marriages are as easy as allowing them, but I'm not sure when it'll come up. Once there are other critters living in your forts, there'll be a bit more pressure in that direction anyway.
Quote from: Knight Otu
How are things looking regarding save compatibility? I'm guessing it's at least tricky to inject the new stuff into existing saves.
Right now, it's still compatible. It was too difficult to get the old saves to generate new instruments without crashing everything, so they'll be somewhat impoverished. The dwarves might be able to make completely freeform stuff or nothing at all. I'll know more when dwarves are using the new forms. I'm trying to maintain the basic compatibility so I have an easier time with old bug report saves and so on, and there might be some use of the new art stuff in old forts (instrument defs are the hard part, so they might get singing forms, poetry and dance, but I can't promise it). Other things like taverns/temples/needs etc. should work immediately in old forts, though you won't have as many varied visitors because entire classes of visitors (bards etc.) won't exist in the old worlds.
Quote from: Fieari
You stated that the language RAWs don't have enough information yet to actually construct poetry at this time, like for stressed feet and whatnot. Any plans for putting in new RAW tags for this, even if you don't fill them in yourself? I'd bet the community would love to help with data-entry work like that. (that or someone might be able to write a program to generate the information based on rules)
Another major lack of information in the languages are words for local creatures-- it's weird that there can be no Dwarven words for creatures they encounter every day. That said, I understand that there might be... technical issues, given that modders can add new creatures (or take them away). Do you have any thoughts regarding how you might fix this in the future? For example, would the creature names go in the language file or the creature file?
I haven't planned out how or when I'm going to do the linguistics additions. It's a very large project, and for that reason it's hard to justify starting it now, though the number of features that want something are slowly increasing (yeah, to the point where I had to fudge a few parameters).
The main obstacle to adding new words on the fly is the rules for their generation. I already have simple preliminary rules in place for each of the languages for when I make their stock words, and you can also see a kind of word generator in place for kobold utterances. It would just need to set those up with more care, and I feel pretty confident with world-gen/post-world-gen incorporation now after all of this generation, so I expect adding new words during the game would be fine. There are related topics involving language change overall that also benefit from a system that allows change.
Quote from: King_of_Baboons
So maybe if we remove all the fantasy stuff,add the economy system back again and hope that the culture stuff is not broken in the next update....maybe we could use DF to simulate real life stuff?Could DF be used to simulate real life worlds?
I think there have been mods along these lines. Nothing would stop you from having various human entities modeled on various peoples, though there isn't a raw format for specific dances etc. yet, so you wouldn't be able to align everything. Once we have enough content in DF, we're planning to have a world gen slider(s) from real-world-no-dwarves to gray-goo-world-no-dwarves, with regular fantasy in between. I'm not sure when the proper time to do that is -- certainly "not having dwarves" would need to be addressed in a more favorable way than "only adventure mode works", but that's a can of worms we've been successfully putting off for a decade or more.
Quote from: King_of_Baboons
Who exactly made those poems and who is going to make new ones?Because every single book in our worlds is made by crazy necros in their towers and its weird that only necromancer towers can be used to store books.It would be nice to see libraries and non necromancer writers.
How are the fortress mode/adventure mode tavern activities going?I really want to be able to sing and play games with my living meat shields companions!
There are going to be a few new classes of "content creators" now that'll be active in world generation and also visiting your fortresses and so on. You should also get a chance to be one in adventure mode, though I'll have to expand my vocabulary of negative words to describe your skill-less attempts. There aren't new prose authors though. It would be nice, and I was considering adding something to complement the new poetry books that are going to floating around, but there might just be poetry books and necromancer books for a bit.
The activities haven't been going since I've been working on the art form generation. Once dances are generated, I'll have everything in place and we'll be able to get critters running around.
Quote from: WordsandChaos
How much semi-random knowledge, on any number of topics, have you acquired over the years through having to research all these different subjects?
I don't know when that started exactly, but most things I learn now are somehow related to something I'll be working on in the game. I recently got through reading several law codes/commentaries from various civilizations in preparation for that framework, which is something I never would have ventured into without DF. It's hard to say how much, though. I don't feel particularly well-rounded.
Quote from: Cruxador
Is poetry and music going to stay within te current modern western paradigm? Or might we have things like freestyle, forms that blend poetry and music (like rap) or forms of oppositional poetry like flyting and rap battles?
I'm not sure how to answer the first question without more specifics. There are aspects of the poetic forms that are difficult/impossible in the typical western languages (not just tones, but some of the positional stuff, etc.). There are already very free poems -- the verse paragraphs don't specify most parameters.
I haven't gotten into poetry recital at all yet (aside from what we now have in songs), and that's still up in the air. I don't want to promise any competitive/etc. forms since that's tougher work to organize in-game, though it's an important theme and we were hoping to do something. The immediate frontier of possible features has grown larger again...
Quote from: Urist McGoombaBrother
Currently there are many materials, reactions and nearly all workshops hardcoded. The glass industry might be a good example. Are there any plans to un-hardcode some of those? Also any plans to enable multi-level workshops for modding?
The glass industry will be ready to come out once the categories can take materials, if I remember. So it's basically just sitting there now, once the wind blows that way, like many other things. Save compat is an issue -- because the glasses are hard-coded, there'll probably need to be a save compat break. I have long lists of small things that I can accomplish during save compat breaks, and I guess this is another one. Another issue is having to read about glass a bit more -- I think our current crystal glass is bizarre and needs to be replaced, if I remember.
I'm not sure what multi-level means. Like upgrades? Maybe I forgot to paste that in from the question. We'll probably get to the de-building-ification of workshops before we do anything like upgrades, which'll accomplish something similar through furniture.
Quote from: Noodz
Will banquets be an aspect of the new entertainment system?
He he he, I read that as Nintendo Entertainment System and was confused. I imagine we'll look into culture surrounding foodiness a bit with the recipe release (which is just after this tavern one and bug-fixing). There'll be replacements for the removed parties, but what exactly those'll be is still unclear. They'll involve the new art forms in various ways, most likely. Food service for groups probably won't be well-organized this time.
Quote from: Mason11987
DF Data structure question: Could you list what the 16 historical figure flags refer to? Based on work from the DFHack team we know that bit 3 flags a deity, 4 a force, and 8 a ghost. The rest are unknown but I've been doing some digging and I know that all the other bits are in use (except possibly 1, 2, and 5)
Yeah, the first one is for whether associated artwork should be revealed -- don't remember if/how that works anymore. Second is whether or not its initial equipment has been created. Five and six are whether it has "skeletal" or "rotting" for it's deity name (should probably be in a deity profile somewhere instead). Seven is a temp world gen flag for "I've acted". Nine, ten, eleven are whether skin/meat/bones have been destroyed in its death, for corpse generation in tombs etc. Lots of exceptional cases there that don't work probably. Twelve through fifteen are copies of the quest-type flags -- brag on kill, kill quest, chat worthy and flashes. Sixteen being on means to never cull the hf.
Post by: Vattic on February 27, 2015, 10:26:41 pm
Post by: Robosaur on February 27, 2015, 10:46:54 pm
Post by: Pidgeot on February 27, 2015, 11:25:03 pm
QuoteQuote from: Urist McGoombaBrotherAny plans to extend the 256 ASCII-Tiles in the future? Probably to 512 or even unlimited tiles for optical differences. As there are so many tiles having multi-uses, it is quite confusing sometimes. I am not referring to adding graphics, just implementing other tiles not included in the ASCII e.g. horizontal brackets/letters or something like that. Same regarding colours. Any plans to increase them from 16 to e.g. 256 colours or even 24-bit? Some parts of the code like the color-definiton tokens seem to support them already. Or will that cause major recoding?
...
I am not referring to graphics, which for sure will cause major and long time dedicated work. Just extending it from 256 tiles to some more. Additional tiles could be derived from e.g. UNICODE. I am no specialist regarding copyright. But as most of the UNICODE-tiles are from various recent/historic alphabets, I can't believe they are more restricted than ASCII.Quote from: lethosorBesides, moving to Unicode would require rewriting a large portion of the display code that relies on 8-bit display tiles.
Even a basic addition of another character page is not a rewrite I feel comfortable doing. The DF part is fine -- it'd take a while, but I could do the DF side of it once I knew what data to push where. However, I have no idea how to set up additional texture atlases while still keeping the speed up in OpenGL, assuming it wouldn't require a completely different approach, so I can't really start. It's way on the back burner for this reason. The game could probably use another thousand characters at this point to remove fundamental overlaps. That's potentially independent of the item graphics problem, though they both run into the texture atlas issue (if you want more than a few item pictures). Item pictures are also complicated by material considerations -- those aren't prohibitive, but take us into graphics territory that I don't want to get mired in.
This has probably already crossed your mind, or been suggested before, but... at least in principle, it should "just" be a matter of using a 3D texture (http://content.gpwiki.org/index.php/OpenGL:Tutorials:3D_Textures), which is essentially just multiple 2D textures placed next to each other in memory. They work just like 2D textures, except you use a third coordinate to specify which of the loaded textures to use.
This approach would require all of the involved textures to have the same width and height... but if the tiles have to be the same size anyway, that gets handled by having the same amount of tiles on each texture. You could also allow tilesets with an arbitrary number of tiles if you padded smaller textures by adding blank areas.
Actually, doesn't this problem already exist with creature graphics? They're in separate textures too, so I'm assuming you're switching out the atlas for those - is the performance hit too large to use the same approach for multi-tileset renering? (If it is, using a 3D texture would allow you to handle creature graphics by just adding them as extra layers to the 3D texture...)
Post by: mifki on February 27, 2015, 11:36:30 pm
Even a basic addition of another character page is not a rewrite I feel comfortable doing. The DF part is fine -- it'd take a while, but I could do the DF side of it once I knew what data to push where. However, I have no idea how to set up additional texture atlases while still keeping the speed up in OpenGL, assuming it wouldn't require a completely different approach, so I can't really start. It's way on the back burner for this reason. The game could probably use another thousand characters at this point to remove fundamental overlaps. That's potentially independent of the item graphics problem, though they both run into the texture atlas issue (if you want more than a few item pictures). Item pictures are also complicated by material considerations -- those aren't prohibitive, but take us into graphics territory that I don't want to get mired in.
I don't see any problems with OpenGL part here. Anyway DF rendering code works with one texture only and loads all the tiles into it, getting pointers to some data for the loaded tiles. Then renderer just finds that data by tile number for each changed tile, and does its job. I don't think any graphics card exists now with maximum texture size < 2048x2048, that gives us 16k 16x16px tiles - more than enough.
Screen buffer currently uses 4 bytes for each screen tile - tile number, fg, bg, brightness. It doesn't seem to be very difficult to change it so that tile number is `short` instead of `char` (assuming that you use functions from the graphics lib and don't access these bytes manually all over the place). Then the old code will work as before but you'll be able to pass tile numbers >256 where you want and load them from raws. Other options are possible as well like making better use of the brightness byte - currently only one bit is used, but another several bits can be used to alternate tileset as the first bit alternates set of colours (again, it has nothing to do with OpenGL textures - if I'm not mistaken, it should be only several lines to change in the graphics code). And yes, Unicode characters can be used so that you don't have a problem with the actual tile images you mentioned earlier.
Another interesting question is with colours - here we don't have a problem with data types, and I think I saw a piece of code in DF that seems to approximate colour token values to 16 available colours. Being able to load more than 16 colours from the config file and use them for approximation seems to be much easier than all that tileset stuff. I don't care that much about colours though.
Of course it's all just a theoretical talk in case it helps you to understand graphics stuff, it all depends on your priorities.
Post by: Verdant_Squire on February 27, 2015, 11:43:42 pm
Post by: Charles2531 on February 28, 2015, 12:14:04 am
With the additions of poems now, obviously poems will need to be written on something at some point. Is it right to assume we will see some type of paper industry added into the game, along with actual book production. Have you thought much about how this will be implemented, for example, whether books have to be handwritten or if there will instead be printing presses? Possibility of informational texts that could help dwarves learn new skills (this might be most balanced without printing presses as such books would therefore be time-consuming to produce, and therefore expensive)?
Also, any chance of some form of Level-of-Detail pathfinding in the future? I posted a suggestion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148460.0) a couple weeks ago for what I think would be a fairly simple and efficient way of implementing it if you're interested. More efficient pathfinding would open up a decent amount of processing power for more processor-intensive features in the future.
Post by: Urist McGoombaBrother on February 28, 2015, 12:47:28 am
Quote from: Toady One
I'm not sure what multi-level means. Like upgrades? Maybe I forgot to paste that in from the question. We'll probably get to the de-building-ification of workshops before we do anything like upgrades, which'll accomplish something similar through furniture.
I mean by that to be able to mod in a workship with a multi-level-structure similar to the metalsmith forge, where you first select a material (Iron, Steel, ...), then a category (weapon, armour, ...) and finally a product (short sword, axe, ...)
Let's say you want to mod in additional types of steel and want to assign all steel types to a custom created seperate Steel Forge. As far as I have understood you currently have to make tons of unique reactions, one for each possible product and finally get one huge list in the custom workshop with "Make Steel Axe/Helmet/Large Serrated Disc/etc./Make Nickel Steel Axe/Helmet/Large Serrated Disc/etc./Make Damascus Steel Axe/Helmet/Large Serrated Disc/etc. ... With multi-level I mean you can create a custom Steel forge, and as with the standard forge you first select material (Steel, Nickel Steel, Damascus Steel), then define the categories like weaponry etc and finally all the possible products are automatically assigned to those categories according to the Material tokens (ITEM_HARD, ITEM_WEAPON, etc.), you assigned to the specific materials.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on February 28, 2015, 01:32:28 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Emphasis mine.Quote from: Putnam(on reaction categories)
Is there finalized syntax for that yet, or will that have to wait?
It's fixed assuming it doesn't get any more interesting. In any reaction's def, assign it to a category with [CATEGORY:<token>].
[CATEGORY:<token>]
[CATEGORY_NAME:<text>]
[CATEGORY_DESCRIPTION:<text>]
[CATEGORY_PARENT:<token>]
[CATEGORY_KEY:<key>]
The subtokens to define the category's details just need to appear below the CATEGORY somewhere once. The nesting can go as deeply as needed. It only shows reaction categories in the relevant workshops if your fort's entity has a permitted reaction within the category nesting, which will hopefully avoid some clutter in complicated mods. We'll have to see what else is necessary as we go. Things like material assignments linked to categories (to handle stuff like glass coming out into the raws) are elevated to "low-hanging fruit" status now, but aren't in the game.
Post by: Spitzkrug on February 28, 2015, 02:30:38 am
Post by: expwnent on February 28, 2015, 02:47:24 am
Will we hear the music, or it will be just described as text?
I very much doubt it.
Post by: Neonivek on February 28, 2015, 03:32:43 am
Will we hear the music, or it will be just described as text?
I very much doubt it.
I am now just picturing someone hearing an angelic chorus whenever reading the descriptions.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on February 28, 2015, 05:53:15 am
For the reaction category syntax, is it like this
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
or like this?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Knight Otu on February 28, 2015, 06:14:56 am
Wait a second...The latter, from Toady's wording:
For the reaction category syntax, is it like thisSpoiler (click to show/hide)
or like this?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's fixed assuming it doesn't get any more interesting. In any reaction's def, assign it to a category with [CATEGORY:<token>].So the category token goes into the reactions, and one of the reactions also includes the category details.
[CATEGORY:<token>]
[CATEGORY_NAME:<text>]
[CATEGORY_DESCRIPTION:<text>]
[CATEGORY_PARENT:<token>]
[CATEGORY_KEY:<key>]
The subtokens to define the category's details just need to appear below the CATEGORY somewhere once. The nesting can go as deeply as needed. It only shows reaction categories in the relevant workshops if your fort's entity has a permitted reaction within the category nesting, which will hopefully avoid some clutter in complicated mods. We'll have to see what else is necessary as we go. Things like material assignments linked to categories (to handle stuff like glass coming out into the raws) are elevated to "low-hanging fruit" status now, but aren't in the game.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on February 28, 2015, 08:28:23 am
Though, thinking back on it, one could replicate interpretation 1's functionality by adding [REACTION:NULL_REACT] on top of the first [CATEGORY] token and leaving the rest of the reaction empty.
Post by: crapabear on February 28, 2015, 11:18:20 am
If not, what kind of experiments are you doing with your test myth generator? Is it something that came up because of the addition of temples, or something that may end up being folded into starting scenarios? What kinds of myths are we talking about, and how crazy can the results get?
Post by: Knight Otu on February 28, 2015, 11:32:18 am
Toady mentioned a "test myth generator" several times in this last reply, but I think this is the first time I've heard it mentioned. Does anybody remember it being mentioned elsewhere?He mentioned it a few times in the reply before this one as well. It's a generator he created for the upcoming Artifacts portion, presumably at first to give these artifacts some context, but apparently it evolved (if it didn't start there anyway) to include changes to how religions work, divine relationships, and things. I've tried to gather the quotes from that reply below.
If not, what kind of experiments are you doing with your test myth generator? Is it something that came up because of the addition of temples, or something that may end up being folded into starting scenarios? What kinds of myths are we talking about, and how crazy can the results get?
Quote from: NeonivekDoes the temples being fully developed suggest a possible use for the gods and more dynamics between the religions? Or when finished just be focused on individual temples and inside fortress dynamics?
and guiltishly doing two
Will religions be fleshed out in terms of how their tenants, outside spheres and the individual gods, work? Such as if they allow multiple god worship, accept new gods to the pantheon, and what they consider to be profane? I guess I don't really need a specific answer I guess what I mean is: Is there going to be more to religions outside the individual gods?
Oddly enough that is what I am really interested in because one of the things I found interested was the religion dynamics within the game. For example some wars or disagreements being made because of the worship of deities often within the same religion (Oddly often with gods of death... which makes sense 'fictional world' wise but not 'world history' wise) and I was just like "Is that god the evil god of this pantheon? or are they just fighting over godly supremacy".
Not for these tavern releases, but we'll be seeing two key pushes for religion with the artifact stuff and then with the start scenario stuff. There'll be a more coherent myth generation first, and then there'll be global religious concerns with the religious embark scenarios. The frameworks that come up there will also answer some of the questions about status and relationships within the religion in ways that can't be addressed now, and the test myth generator we've been working with goes well beyond individual gods.
The current religious disagreements involving gods are sphere-based I think, so it's mostly over some vague conceptual disagreement that sort of amounts to "evil god to my god". I don't recall if there are numeric penalties just from the god being a different god, though they do penalize non-belief. We'll have more information to work with there, though it's anybody's guess what gets focused on first once the frameworks are improved.Quote from: InariusIn relation to religion ,is any sort mythology generation (god X father of god Y, genealogy tree, relationships between gods like in most mythology or things like this) an idea you are working on, or will gods remain independant from each other ?
We've been toying around with a test generator and have quite a bit lined up now for the world gen artifact releases which will follow the tavern releases. All sorts of new stuff should make it in.Quote from: JapaWith the addition of temples, will religious festivals and observances ever come into play?
He he he, somebody already pointed out the "ever". But yeah, we're hoping to have those, and they're on the dev pages. We thought we were going to start with fairs as the first scheduled community events, but now I'm not sure. The myth stuff we do prior to the first artifact release might clarify it a bit, though it might not.Quote from: CaptainArchmageWith temples are we going to have new furniture (such as, altars)? Or will that be covered by existing furniture (like tables)?
It's still under consideration. It depends on how far we want to go into temples before we have the additional information which will be granted by the next two major cycles (world gen artifact myth stuff, and religious start scenario framework stuff).Quote from: MrLupenTailsCan we create our own custom deities through a noble or by using the temple? Will dwarves be able to change religion? Can we enforce punishment on heresy or blasphemy? Will some religions be more violent? Will some religions be more peaceful?
Edit: When I asked the last two questions, I was referring to world generation scenarios. It would suck if all religions seemed the same for each race.
We're not doing too much with it now, but things will be more interesting when we get embark scenarios with religious components. I don't expect all of the religions to be the same at that point. I'm not sure what you mean by custom deities.
Post by: Naryar on February 28, 2015, 02:36:21 pm
These song descriptions are sodding great. Don't add anything to the gameplay?
The Elder Scrolls series has a hundred odd books that didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. Diablo II and III had a bunch of superfluous dialogue options/random bits of lore that gave backstory and info into the world and didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. The Lord of the Rings, Song of Ice and Fire, Warhammer, Snow Crash, Moby Dick, and thousands of other bits of media include other bits of 'fluff' that don't directly impact the main focus of the game/book/experience, but would make each thing more shallow if those bits of lore and fluff, etc, were missing.
Here's the fantastic thing about all of it: it's optional. It's not shoved into your face. You have to actively make an effort to go and look at it, and you can ignore it if you're not interested. And if you aren't that's fine. Not everyone read the pages and pages concerning who was wearing what suit made by which company in American Psycho. Not everyone read any of the books in the Elder Scrolls. Not everyone gave a damn about the pages upon pages of derail on whatever topic in Snow crash. The point is that some people were interested and did. This is why the Silmarillion, the World of Ice and Fire book, or the Black Library exists:
Because some like to delve deeper.
I'm not complaining about the presence of fluff, every game needs some and Dwarf Fortress more than most other games. I'm complaining about the unnecessary complexity of it.
And I read the books in Morrowind. It helps immersion and makes you feel things. Also, it's a book, in a game !
Post by: Putnam on February 28, 2015, 02:50:25 pm
These song descriptions are sodding great. Don't add anything to the gameplay?
The Elder Scrolls series has a hundred odd books that didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. Diablo II and III had a bunch of superfluous dialogue options/random bits of lore that gave backstory and info into the world and didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. The Lord of the Rings, Song of Ice and Fire, Warhammer, Snow Crash, Moby Dick, and thousands of other bits of media include other bits of 'fluff' that don't directly impact the main focus of the game/book/experience, but would make each thing more shallow if those bits of lore and fluff, etc, were missing.
Here's the fantastic thing about all of it: it's optional. It's not shoved into your face. You have to actively make an effort to go and look at it, and you can ignore it if you're not interested. And if you aren't that's fine. Not everyone read the pages and pages concerning who was wearing what suit made by which company in American Psycho. Not everyone read any of the books in the Elder Scrolls. Not everyone gave a damn about the pages upon pages of derail on whatever topic in Snow crash. The point is that some people were interested and did. This is why the Silmarillion, the World of Ice and Fire book, or the Black Library exists:
Because some like to delve deeper.
I'm not complaining about the presence of fluff, every game needs some and Dwarf Fortress more than most other games. I'm complaining about the unnecessary complexity of it.
Quote
You alone, though you come again and again, can unmake him. Whether I allow it is within my wisdom. Go unarmed into his den with these words of power: AE GHARTOK PADHOME [CHIM] AE ALTADOON. Or do not. The temporal myth is man. Reach heaven by violence. This magic I give to you: the world you will rule is only an intermittent hope and you must be the letter written in uncertainty
elder scrolls got some "unnecessary complexity" too
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 28, 2015, 03:55:01 pm
Did people really skip large sections of American Psycho? How did they know when the section ended if they were not reading it?
Post by: Edmus on February 28, 2015, 08:12:45 pm
Sorry if this's already been asked or answered, I've not been watching development as closely as I want to.
Post by: Curious Key on March 01, 2015, 03:01:20 am
When engravings and statues can be commissioned, will this extend to being able to demand poets and musicians compose pieces pertaining to specific HFs or events?
Sorry if this's already been asked or answered, I've not been watching development as closely as I want to.
Sounds like a good idea to me. I can just imagine a self-absorbed mayor commissioning loads of statues of himself, and the rebellious masons depicting him as being surrounded by maggots in every one. :P
Post by: WordsandChaos on March 01, 2015, 06:46:02 am
-snip-
I'm not complaining about the presence of fluff, every game needs some and Dwarf Fortress more than most other games. I'm complaining about the unnecessary complexity of it.
And I read the books in Morrowind. It helps immersion and makes you feel things. Also, it's a book, in a game !
I don't really have a great deal of musical theory knowledge, but I'm glad it's there. If you're not going to be able to understand all the mega-technical stuff, and apparently some of it is just plain bizarre from a western musical perspective (which is also cool), then pretty much everything below the, "The chorus is fast. The verse is slow." etc can be ignored. The top bit pretty much gives us the outline of the music in a more sensory fashion. We can piece some idea of slow chanting priests over the top of a fast moving mandolin. It could be elaborated on in terms of fluff for the average music listener, but I don't think the technical details detract from it.
Post by: utunnels on March 01, 2015, 07:44:35 am
When population reach 100, my fps never goes beyond 30. So I'm afraid I won't be able to have monarches. It would be nice to remove some population limits like we can set pupulation caps now.
Post by: Farmerbob on March 01, 2015, 10:32:10 am
Two tavern and mug related questions:
First, have you considered adding 'breaking mugs' as a celebratory tavern activity? The breaking of the mugs would generate happiness in the craftsdwarf who made the mug, and the breaker of the mug, with the happiness generated being dependent on the craftdwarfship of the mugs? Dwarves would always collect the best mugs they could from the stockpiles.
Second, have you considered allowing artifact mugs and musical instruments to be added to taverns as part of the décor, increasing the happiness of dwarves that see them in much the same way as levers can be admired? Perhaps do the same with figurines, jewelry, and scepters in temples?
Post by: Dirst on March 01, 2015, 11:08:04 am
Second, have you considered allowing artifact mugs and musical instruments to be added to taverns as part of the décor, increasing the happiness of dwarves that see them in much the same way as levers can be admired?You ate a Cracker Barrel recently, didn't you? :)
Post by: Putnam on March 01, 2015, 08:07:14 pm
Since there will be taverns, doesn't it mean there will be more units on the map? Is it possible to have more population related settings?
When population reach 100, my fps never goes beyond 30. So I'm afraid I won't be able to have monarches. It would be nice to remove some population limits like we can set pupulation caps now.
You can adjust that in the entity raws, y'know.
Post by: utunnels on March 01, 2015, 08:28:22 pm
You can adjust that in the entity raws, y'know.I know, but editing raws will cause some complications, for example, when I want to install a new graphic pack.
Post by: Putnam on March 01, 2015, 08:45:30 pm
Post by: utunnels on March 01, 2015, 09:03:19 pm
Entity raws aren't edited by graphics, last I checked.Fine, I'll give it a try. But can I really have a king if I add a REQUIRES_POPULATION tag under monarch? Editing raws seems more difficult than editing d_init, and if I understand correctly, I have to generate a new world.
Post by: Andeerz on March 02, 2015, 01:53:11 am
Might the general ideas underlying the music/poetry style generation perhaps be co-opted for the generation of not only musical and poetic styles, but also other styles of art (or any other kind of meme) and even technologies? Also, with the potential future for book writing and some of the proposed/current mechanisms for information and knowledge transfer (storytelling, etc.), will generated cultural (and possibly technological) knowledge be able to spread, persist, change, and even be lost?
I could easily foresee this applying to architectural styles, for example, to make culturally distinct building layouts and structural motifs generated by one culture that could also be spread to and modified by other cultures. Or, even more exciting, perhaps even combat styles, designs of tools, weapons, workshops, and other technology could be generated, and varied in style and function in a manner based on this as a foundation! Though I think this would have to be in a manner that factors in perceived needs, prerequisite knowledge (on the individual or population-wide, or higher level depending on level of abstraction), as well as economic, cultural, and other interconnected factors that are crucial in determining how and when inventions and discoveries come about. :D
Post by: Putnam on March 02, 2015, 03:10:24 am
Combat styles seem exceedingly likely to be learned in a similar fashion, knowledge-wise, from previous statements.
Post by: Max™ on March 02, 2015, 07:28:44 am
Quote from: Toady One
The obstacle isn't the multi-species fort stuff so much as the number of people for that one, which is more of a hill-dwarf problem. If I remember, the refugees can already choose your fort as a destination for camping next to, but they don't actually enter the fort. It'll probably be best to put that one off until we have the broader infrastructure in place for hill-dwarves (which are just a group of numerous associated critters living near the fort).
First... wow, I just now realized "hill-dwarves=the folks in the hillocks, deep dwarves=the fortress folks we usually play with"... the things you can more fully appreciate after playing both adventurer and fortress mode shouldn't be ignored, I wish I had tried out adventurer mode long before I finally did.
As for the quoted bit there, yeah, you mostly see refugees show up sitting just outside of fortresses, often just on the edges of mountain tiles, sometimes you can find them along rivers near stinky-treehumper sites, I've found some just outside of dark pits and fortress as well. They all sleep constantly though, I think they got missed in the army bugfix. I've encountered tent sleeping army groups but only at night, refugees tend to always be sleeping sadly, as it seems like it would be interesting to find out what happened, help out, take advantage of opportunities, and so forth.
________________________________________________________________
Regarding multi-racial forts, I recently began my initial steps into modding my game here and there, mostly just a few tweaks and stuff, my biggest step so far has been getting a race incorporated into the world, producing gear and wearing it correctly, surviving world-gen, and not taking over the map in the process. Though part of that was finding that non-dwarf fortresses can be really interesting, and that removing the [TOLERATES_SITE:CAVE_DETAILED] tag and just leaving the [LIKES_SITE] one intact means they actually stick around in the forts for the most part where before I had to struggle to avoid them sprawling across the map taking over everything.
Where was I going, oh yeah, multi-racial forts. I learned to my surprise (though it seems obvious enough now since you can reclaim from other dorf civs) that I was able to move my dorfs into an entirely non-dwarf fort and set up shop. That works normally until I was trying to get the angels (modded race is steel angels, mini-bronze colossus but steel, etc) to trade with their neighbors and made a new world after fixing it so they would, I found one of the reclaim options wasn't lost from a beast or dragon or whatnot, it was taken over by goblins apparently.
So I set out, start to explore the fort and get spammed with ambush notifications, angels are dangerous as hell when hostile so I said heck with it and spammed dfhack's tweak makeown on them until they were all part of my civ and I didn't have to risk being killed. Now, they show up as tame instead of no job or whatnot, so it isn't ideal, but it is kinda a type of multi-race fort as is, right?
Well, I was still expecting the angels to make trade depots so I decided to add [CIV_CONTROLLABLE] to see that they performed all the reactions, could build the right stuff, and so forth. Well, during world gen I found another case of a fort being taken over (angels don't avoid evil areas like dorfs do) so I moved in expecting to have to dfhack convert some residents.
Well, boy did I get a surprise:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Still, I assume the only problem with multi-race forts is said issue of the second race being listed as "tame" instead of being able to do jobs and such normally.
_______________________
Now for a question:
I could swear I remember seeing you say you wish there were an easier way to switch between fort and adventure modes. Do you have any ideas on how you would be going about this, or when you would be shooting for pushing it out?
Right now you can do it with dfhack mode set > 2 (arena mode) > loo(k) and (a)ssume control of a creature > mode set > 1 (adventurer mode), then dfusion > 2 (adventurer tools) > 2 (change adventurer) and you should be able to travel, save, retire at locations, and so forth normally. You can do it the other way but I think you need to toss in the mode set > 4 (unretire fortress) step or it won't display the interface right, but I haven't tried that way in a while as it is easier to just retire the adventurer nearby and then unretire the fortress again normally.
With the addition of advfort letting me do things like start in a fortress, dismantle some forges with steel anvils, melt them down into bars, dismantle a magma smelter downstairs to make a magma furnace, and bit by bit forge myself a set of exceptional to masterwork gear, it's clear that there are a lot of areas of overlap that already work surprisingly well, but being able to more readily step into a dorf and explore the world or lead a battle or do some risky construction (normal dorfs won't climb a sheer wall to build a floor 10 z off the ground too happily) and then hop back into fortress mode would be amazing.
I saw something about wanting to be able to add a way to take part in the games directly, sounds like that might be just a couple steps away from what I mentioned.
Post by: Urist Arrhenius on March 02, 2015, 02:50:59 pm
The music and poetry generation is incredibly exciting to me. I feel it opens up the framework for all sorts of memetic goodness!I would love to see distinct architectural styles enter the game. Many community challenges rely on employing specifically architectural styles and limitations, and having a cultural basis would be really interesting. I would love to have a fort where my dwarves preferred everything was constructed using sloped roofs and central pillars surrounded by statutes, or whatever gets generated. Even if that cultural preference didn't effect gameplay in any way, besides giving me an architectural style to work within.
I could easily foresee this applying to architectural styles, for example, to make culturally distinct building layouts and structural motifs generated by one culture that could also be spread to and modified by other cultures. Or, even more exciting, perhaps even combat styles, designs of tools, weapons, workshops, and other technology could be generated, and varied in style and function in a manner based on this as a foundation! Though I think this would have to be in a manner that factors in perceived needs, prerequisite knowledge (on the individual or population-wide, or higher level depending on level of abstraction), as well as economic, cultural, and other interconnected factors that are crucial in determining how and when inventions and discoveries come about. :D
Post by: Andeerz on March 02, 2015, 08:39:47 pm
The march report says that there's dancing styles too.
Combat styles seem exceedingly likely to be learned in a similar fashion, knowledge-wise, from previous statements.
Oh, that is most fantastic!
In that case, allow me to rephrase my question a bit, and introduce some new ones for Toady:
You mentioned in January that musical/dance/poetic styles are generated by culture. By "generated by culture", do you mean generated by the culture as a whole, or will individuals/groups within the culture generate this knowledge? And after this knowledge is generated, who or what possesses this knowledge? Can this knowledge be spread, changed, and even lost by whatever possesses it? If so, how?
Also, from what has been shown of the music/poetry style generation so far, it seems like the differences between styles generated by different cultures are all pretty much random. Is this correct? And, if so, will this be the case for other kinds of generated knowledge, such as combat styles? Or will other things factor in? For example, with music styles, might a culture's exposure to another music style factor into the generation of their own music style, perhaps basing their new style on the other resulting in a style sharing certain features? For another example with combat styles, will a culture frequently exposed to a specific combat style or enemy generate a combat style geared towards countering the other combat style or particular enemy?
Stemming from this... a combat style can be considered a technology in a very real sense. Do you foresee this sort of knowledge generation possibly serving as a foundation for generation of technologies by cultures, including the improvement of existing technologies? In this case, I mean tools, workshops, weapons, etc.
Post by: Veroule on March 03, 2015, 01:46:49 am
Actually I have most of the code for handling the data structures that underlie the graphics functions written for a switch to a 65536 symbol base. It was something I was working on before Baughn kicked me out SDL project, however many years ago that was. I saw it was going to be necessary and started writing the parts that I could. If I recall correctly, Baughn's tileset code is wide open, calculating the number of tiles entirely from the tileset file and defined dimensions; of course being compiled with 32bit definitions sets 1 limit, and 64bit would set a different limit. Baughn was less particular about signing and sizing so the limit on number of tiles in the code he wrote should be around 2 billion. The speed in his code is largely dependent on the GPU and graphics card memory, I was never able to pick through all of it to optimize data handling. Even older graphics card should easily be able to handle 1024 symbol tilesets.Quote from: Urist McGoombaBrotherAny plans to extend the 256 ASCII-Tiles in the future? Probably to 512 or even unlimited tiles for optical differences. As there are so many tiles having multi-uses, it is quite confusing sometimes. I am not referring to adding graphics, just implementing other tiles not included in the ASCII e.g. horizontal brackets/letters or something like that. Same regarding colours. Any plans to increase them from 16 to e.g. 256 colours or even 24-bit? Some parts of the code like the color-definiton tokens seem to support them already. Or will that cause major recoding?
...
I am not referring to graphics, which for sure will cause major and long time dedicated work. Just extending it from 256 tiles to some more. Additional tiles could be derived from e.g. UNICODE. I am no specialist regarding copyright. But as most of the UNICODE-tiles are from various recent/historic alphabets, I can't believe they are more restricted than ASCII.Quote from: lethosorBesides, moving to Unicode would require rewriting a large portion of the display code that relies on 8-bit display tiles.
Even a basic addition of another character page is not a rewrite I feel comfortable doing. The DF part is fine -- it'd take a while, but I could do the DF side of it once I knew what data to push where. However, I have no idea how to set up additional texture atlases while still keeping the speed up in OpenGL, assuming it wouldn't require a completely different approach, so I can't really start. It's way on the back burner for this reason. The game could probably use another thousand characters at this point to remove fundamental overlaps. That's potentially independent of the item graphics problem, though they both run into the texture atlas issue (if you want more than a few item pictures). Item pictures are also complicated by material considerations -- those aren't prohibitive, but take us into graphics territory that I don't want to get mired in.
Post by: utunnels on March 03, 2015, 02:03:39 am
Post by: LordBaal on March 03, 2015, 07:05:21 am
Yes you can have floors or draw bridges but they can't really block the entities spawning at the edge.
Post by: mardouille on March 03, 2015, 09:56:57 am
I know about the retiring fortress and all but I think it would be nice if you could hop from one fortress to another with one of your adventurer.
Also, are there plans to translate the game to other languages?
Post by: LordBaal on March 03, 2015, 10:32:09 am
Post by: Knight Otu on March 03, 2015, 10:52:33 am
Now that the game is interlocking it's two modes more deep (taverns for adventurers anyone?), have you thought of making the time more standard, or have you ever thought on making fortress time as slow as adventure time?
Quote from: cybergonIs the way that time passes in fortress mode ever going to change? Or did you already put a ring on it?
I don't have any plans to change it. People like to see their dwarves grow up and so on, and I think you'd have to run the equivalent of a 144 year fort to see a baby turn into a child if you were running at adventure mode speeds. It's also difficult to support variable speeds. Nothing's permanent though.
Post by: King_of_Baboons on March 03, 2015, 12:28:25 pm
Will it be finally possible to make acts of profanation or heresy in Adventure Mode?
Will players be able to create their own cults and religions with their own laws and rules?
In the late winter of 27568485630,Raul Tilaturist founded the Church of Armokism in the Mythical Plains.
In the late winter of 27568485630,The Church of Armokism declared war to the Warcraftism Cult.
Post by: falcc on March 03, 2015, 02:18:54 pm
What do you see as the long term future of poisons and poison classes? Will there be generated poison classes so various creatures could be immune to one another or susceptible to one another? I know poisoning isn't very Dwarfy, but could creatures gradually develop immunity or cures for various kinds of creature poisons? I'm thinking fish growing immune to anemones, but also adventurers developing poison immunities through controlled exposure.
Post by: Scoops Novel on March 04, 2015, 10:58:58 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on March 04, 2015, 01:26:59 pm
Post by: Pootis on March 04, 2015, 03:54:46 pm
What's the timeframe for the current release? Will this one be another year+ in development or are we moving towards a more frequent cycle of updates?
Post by: Knight Otu on March 04, 2015, 04:17:36 pm
Apologies if this has already been asked, but:
What's the timeframe for the current release? Will this one be another year+ in development or are we moving towards a more frequent cycle of updates?
As always, the plan is to have more short-term updates, and to that end, Toady and ThreeToe have created the four-section dev plan on the dev page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), of which job priorities is done (for now), and taverns is in progress. The sub-items are mostly natural breaks where Toady thinks he can release a new version when it takes too long.
Quote
Threetoe: Okay, after the first section, which is job priorities, then we move on to do dwarf fortress mode inns and taverns. Because we want to add something fun, so that we aren't just doing another giant release for the sake of everybody's sanity with their interface problems.
Toady: Yeah, the two-year release was really long, he he. And there was a lot of foundational work that was done. And we're trying to break this next one up. Well we always try, he he, but we're going to succeed this time! We're breaking this one up into some smaller fun stuff.
When will humans finally be able to steal dwarven steel making technology? We could do it by 1400, and we are very good at stealing ideas.
I believe this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1776138;topicseen#msg1776138) is the latest post on this matter:
Quote
Quote from: MephansterasAre Elves going to have any preference/dislike for trading for metal? They can't really tell if it was made using charcoal or coke, and it's generally superior to what they can do natively, so could that be something effected by the ruler's preferences?
Also, will we eventually see other civs trying to trade for your metalworking secrets? A human king offering an alliance in exchange for you teaching some human smiths how to make steel, for example?
In the same way that they might no longer trade for clothing that doesn't fit, elves might reject metal weapons as a matter of entity definitions, but not as a matter of tree-cutting ethics. I guess if there's a ruler that can override the entity defs, then they'd buy metal. It probably won't happen now.
I haven't really thought about technology issues that much, but it would be reasonable to go into what the permitted jobs and reactions mean in the entity defs (whether it is a matter of knowledge or cultural preferences for example). At that point it would definitely be fair to pass the information around as a game mechanic, even if your dwarves don't look kindly upon it happening (I imagine that would be the norm).
Post by: SimRobert2001 on March 04, 2015, 05:39:38 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on March 05, 2015, 10:10:43 am
With the new poetry, is there a specific artifact that peots can make? Such as a great peom that inspires bravery?Since that borders on magic, and would require some changes for moods, that's pretty unlikely.
-------------
Edit
-------------
That interview does put a new spin on Toady's multi-tile creature experiments. I hadn't expected boats to be on the short list for the fifth spot. That's just boats, and not full vehicles, I assume? There are generally fewer obstacles on the water, after all. (below it on the other hand...)
Also, Cruxador's twelve-stringed long-necked dog lute from earlier in the thread almost makes an appearance. ;D
Post by: Cruxador on March 05, 2015, 02:12:02 pm
Is this specifying "positive" because of curses like the worldgen ones or?Quote from: ManzeenanIf temples are affected by material wealth within its zones and number of worshippers will there be a chance for positive blessings such as attribute/skill boost? Or is this related to artifacts? Also will dieties bless the fort with materilas/objects such as the procedurally genereated ones, will certain deities be more likely to gift certain materials eg. god of gems gives some rare gems?
I don't have a specific positive effects plan in place right now. It's kind of lumped in with magic.
Quote
I didn't really mean specific details of given forms. The latter two questions were meant to elaborate upon the first. Rap came up twice because it's a very good example that a lot of people are familiar with of something that contains significant elements of poetry but which isn't often called that, especially outside of academia.Quote from: CruxadorIs poetry and music going to stay within te current modern western paradigm? Or might we have things like freestyle, forms that blend poetry and music (like rap) or forms of oppositional poetry like flyting and rap battles?
Post by: SimRobert2001 on March 05, 2015, 07:29:16 pm
With the new poetry, is there a specific artifact that peots can make? Such as a great peom that inspires bravery?Since that borders on magic, and would require some changes for moods, that's pretty unlikely.
Also, Cruxador's twelve-stringed long-necked dog lute from earlier in the thread almost makes an appearance. ;D
Yea, but there's mods that do something similar. It basically gives the target a different tag. HOWEVER, all that has to happen is that dwarves that go by have a simple personality change, or even a different, powerful thought. Such as 'has been elated to see a poem by urist"
Post by: Andeerz on March 06, 2015, 01:59:55 pm
Post by: Button on March 06, 2015, 06:20:37 pm
Post by: Putnam on March 06, 2015, 06:23:57 pm
Post by: Untelligent on March 06, 2015, 07:13:08 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 07, 2015, 04:12:07 am
Toady, is Needlegrass intended to be Achnatherum, Aristida, Stipa, or another genus?Maybe it's none of those and it's just a literal name like feather trees.
Post by: WordsandChaos on March 07, 2015, 05:27:55 am
You mean a "peom" written by urist. Who is a "peot". I'm sorry... I can't get over that amusing mispelling. It made me giggle. Peot.
Peyote? You'll have to wait for the herbalism expansion for hallucinogens...
Post by: Scoops Novel on March 08, 2015, 01:22:00 pm
Post by: AoshimaMichio on March 08, 2015, 02:46:08 pm
I'm about to embark and give my group of dwarves name of "Ninurcerol, The Escorted Lenses". I play the game and fortress comes to end, either retired or abandoned. Then I embark into another fortress with same civilization as previous one and give this group of dwarves same name; "Ninurcerol, The Escorted Lenses".
Now what does DF think about this? Will it consider this group to be new group with new ID who just happens to have same name or does it any checks whether another group with same name exists? I kinda want to have world-wide organization going around building things... I know nothing stops me from doing it anyway, but it would be nice to know my groups have actual connection beyond just having same name.
Post by: RoaryStar on March 08, 2015, 02:52:07 pm
I got question about internal workings in following scenario:
I'm about to embark and give my group of dwarves name of "Ninurcerol, The Escorted Lenses". I play the game and fortress comes to end, either retired or abandoned. Then I embark into another fortress with same civilization as previous one and give this group of dwarves same name; "Ninurcerol, The Escorted Lenses".
Now what does DF think about this? Will it consider this group to be same as previous one or will it be new group who just happens to have same name? I kinda want to have world-wide organization going around building things...
I know nothing stops me from doing it anyway, but it would be nice to know my groups have actual connection beyond just having same name.
As a programmer, I can say that I'm 99.99% sure it's just a new group who happens to have same name.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on March 08, 2015, 03:04:23 pm
As a programmer I agree with your assesment. DF does already lots of great things, so I'm hoping it would do such simple check.I got question about internal workings in following scenario:
I'm about to embark and give my group of dwarves name of "Ninurcerol, The Escorted Lenses". I play the game and fortress comes to end, either retired or abandoned. Then I embark into another fortress with same civilization as previous one and give this group of dwarves same name; "Ninurcerol, The Escorted Lenses".
Now what does DF think about this? Will it consider this group to be same as previous one or will it be new group who just happens to have same name? I kinda want to have world-wide organization going around building things...
I know nothing stops me from doing it anyway, but it would be nice to know my groups have actual connection beyond just having same name.
As a programmer, I can say that I'm 99.99% sure it's just a new group who happens to have same name.
Post by: Putnam on March 08, 2015, 05:11:05 pm
Post by: Appelgren on March 08, 2015, 09:35:21 pm
Also: I tried out the kulet heptatonic scale on a microtonal synth (http://offtonic.com/synth/ (http://offtonic.com/synth/)) and those quarter tones sounded way better than I thought. :P
Post by: nonfish on March 08, 2015, 10:33:26 pm
Quote
A solo celebration dance originating in The Slick Rampart...This is making me wonder...
Will dwarven dancing be restricted to taverns? Or could extremely happy dwarves (such as those just completing an artifact or realizing a life goal) spontaneously break out into dance to celebrate?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 09, 2015, 12:07:59 am
From the new dance forms:QuoteA solo celebration dance originating in The Slick Rampart...This is making me wonder...
Will dwarven dancing be restricted to taverns? Or could extremely happy dwarves (such as those just completing an artifact or realizing a life goal) spontaneously break out into dance to celebrate?
...causing Dwarves who observe him to also break out into a dance. Resulting in a fortress-wide dance cascade! What an awesome time for a forgotten beast to strike. :)
Post by: AoshimaMichio on March 09, 2015, 01:26:47 am
It's not even a check, each group has a unique ID. The name is not used for identification at all.Naturally, but will the ID be the same or not?
Post by: Putnam on March 09, 2015, 02:04:42 am
Post by: LordBaal on March 09, 2015, 07:44:22 am
Post by: thvaz on March 09, 2015, 08:15:00 am
Post by: Zarathustra30 on March 09, 2015, 11:11:14 am
Post by: Dirst on March 09, 2015, 11:17:12 am
The dwarves will actually dance during play following the rules of the dance styles? (solo dances vs group dances and so on). How do you think in displaying them, and how will be displayed the music being performed?My guess is that there will some sort of flash tile to indicate dancing, because there's no way to draw the head movements and side-kicks in the current UI. I expect that dancing partners can occupy the same tile, what would be impressive is if the tile-to-tile movements actually related to the dance descriptions.
Post by: WordsandChaos on March 09, 2015, 02:04:48 pm
Would it be possible for dancing to be weaponised/afflicted? I'm thinking along the lines of dancing mania: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_mania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_mania). I have a compelling mental image of the potential for a forgotten beast to coat a Fortress in dust that renders dwarves unable to do anything but dance until dead, or a Pied Piper character who just shows up at the fort and leads Dwarves off the map with their mesmerising music...
Secondly: How do hostiles deal with music? If a Goblin army lays siege to your fort, and your tavern area happens to be throwing an amazing gig, are attackers in ear-shot likely to drop what they're doing and just start rocking out because the bard's got sick flute skills?
Post by: Mel_Vixen on March 09, 2015, 02:46:30 pm
The dwarves will actually dance during play following the rules of the dance styles? (solo dances vs group dances and so on). How do you think in displaying them, and how will be displayed the music being performed?My guess is that there will some sort of flash tile to indicate dancing, because there's no way to draw the head movements and side-kicks in the current UI. I expect that dancing partners can occupy the same tile, what would be impressive is if the tile-to-tile movements actually related to the dance descriptions.
In the last interview Toady mentioned Dancing, he said there something about conveying the concept of Dancing to the Player when you see weird pathing (let me pull that section)
Quote
This whole thing is mostly just so dwarves can sing drinking songs. The poetry is going to link up with the dancing and the music and it’ll be able to describe what your dwarf is going when he’s moving left and to the right in the tavern and you’ll be like, ‘is this dwarf’s path-finding broken?’ and it’ll say he’s ‘dancing to the urist’ or whatever and you’ll say, ‘what’s that?’ and it’ll pop-up the five paragraphs that you always never knew you wanted about dwarven dance theory.
Post by: thvaz on March 09, 2015, 07:16:46 pm
snip
Cool, that is what I wanted to know.
Post by: Max™ on March 10, 2015, 12:22:54 am
Secondly: How do hostiles deal with music? If a Goblin army lays siege to your fort, and your tavern area happens to be throwing an amazing gig, are attackers in ear-shot likely to drop what they're doing and just start rocking out because the bard's got sick flute skills?That would be the best thing ever, defeating a siege with the power of rock!
Post by: Putnam on March 10, 2015, 12:49:12 am
Post by: golemgunk on March 10, 2015, 08:12:22 am
Also, do songs, dancing, etc. only occur at parties, or will we see people doing them just for fun in their down time?
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on March 10, 2015, 08:22:21 am
Post by: crapabear on March 11, 2015, 10:25:41 pm
Post by: Putnam on March 11, 2015, 11:48:27 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 12, 2015, 04:52:16 am
If so will they be something 'adventurer bards' can take part in?
And following on from that thought, will your fortress be nominated as a potential festival location?
That would be hilarious...
Post by: blazing glory on March 12, 2015, 07:04:33 am
Making a net of cage traps doesn't seem very effective.
Post by: Button on March 12, 2015, 07:41:20 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on March 12, 2015, 11:31:59 am
What are your thoughts on putting real-life illicit/illegal drugs in the game? Specifically, I'm expanding the products made from the real-world plants, and I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate to add hemp buds and their associated syndrome.
Absolutely. If Toady does not add it, I may make a cannabis mod myself. It could also make some good dialogue as dwarves make even less sense than before.
Post by: Scoops Novel on March 12, 2015, 11:34:55 am
Post by: King_of_Baboons on March 12, 2015, 12:46:50 pm
Quote
forming teacher-student links,
Does that mean that the "skill system" that we have for jobs and combat will eventually be replaced by a knowledge based system?(a dwarf who did a certain job for his entire life is considered an expert in that area and a dwarf who has been doing a job for 2 months is considered a novice)
Will said knowledge be transferred via family relationships?(Urist's parents teach him how to be a blacksmith/Urist's wife teaches him poetry)
Will dwarves be forced to learn things by themselves?Vanod's home is being constantly harassed by criminals.He decides that he had enough of them and since there are no warriors in his village he starts to train some combat skills by himself by fighting the wild animals that roam nearby his home.
And now,an unrelated question:
Will vampires/werebeasts and any other night creature that you are planning to add to game be able to marry other night creatures and have vamire/werebeast sons?I feel like this would be a nice alternative for generating new night creatures instead of the very rare profanations and an awesome quest to have in adv mode.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on March 12, 2015, 05:03:24 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 12, 2015, 06:30:05 pm
Are there going to be any entity tokens to customize what types of art forms civilizations get? Like if I want dwarves to only make dances that are really slow, or elves to have mostly fast music. Is speed of music even part of the styles I haven't looked at the dance or music styles since they seemed really complicated. Anyway, there's probably things one might want to customize other than speed.Although, as most civs are at least a little multi-species these days, limiting art forms by species is a bit arbitrary. Culture influences come mostly from your upbringing. Toady's even made sure all the dances can be performed equally by Dwarves as well as cave spiders.
Why would a bunch of goblins who've lived all their lives amongst Dwarves suddenly start dancing to the latest Dark Pit beats?
Unless it were some kind of militant goblin independence thing. Hmm...
Post by: vjmdhzgr on March 12, 2015, 07:04:20 pm
No, I mean in the entity. I'm not asking if you can make it physically impossible for goblins to do dwarf dances, I'm asking if you can make it so that certain civilizations make art forms of certain types more often. Like if you could make it so most dwarven poetry is quite long or that most dwarven dances are solo celebration dances. They'd still probably generate short poetry forms, but it'd be nice to be able to make certain types more common.Are there going to be any entity tokens to customize what types of art forms civilizations get? Like if I want dwarves to only make dances that are really slow, or elves to have mostly fast music. Is speed of music even part of the styles I haven't looked at the dance or music styles since they seemed really complicated. Anyway, there's probably things one might want to customize other than speed.Although, as most civs are at least a little multi-species these days, limiting art forms by species is a bit arbitrary. Culture influences come mostly from your upbringing. Toady's even made sure all the dances can be performed equally by Dwarves as well as cave spiders.
Why would a bunch of goblins who've lived all their lives amongst Dwarves suddenly start dancing to the latest Dark Pit beats?
Unless it were some kind of militant goblin independence thing. Hmm...
Post by: King_of_Baboons on March 13, 2015, 06:14:37 pm
Will different civs be able to write their own "national anthem" or something like that?
Post by: Scoops Novel on March 14, 2015, 05:29:59 am
Post by: Edmus on March 14, 2015, 06:31:02 am
Post by: Fieari on March 14, 2015, 08:51:01 am
I'm thinking this could be something fun to dedicate an adventurer to, especially if you need to gather history to sing about from people across the lands. Enough depth to the system, and there'd be some real challenge to it.
Post by: Silicoid on March 14, 2015, 11:47:56 am
Quote
finished up the teacher-student links and decided to augment that with the formation of performance troupes that can gallivant about. You'll also see them in your forts when we get to that part. A group of goblin poets had the honor of making the very first one, and they decided to call themselves the Fungi of Hell. After fourty years, five of the original eight founding members had met violent ends (including one that ended up in an elf belly), and another had left to become a baron at a dwarf fort, but they were still going strong with new members, including some bards and dancers and poets-turned-bard and so on.
After a typo, I managed to screw things up badly enough that my first large world test had hundreds of artists split into just three gigantic world-wide societies based on their art form, but I've put some controls on size and made them mix together properly again. It would have been bad to suddenly have two hundred dancers show up at the fort and ask for drinks after a performance.
Next up, the books! Then the festivals
That is not a bug but a feature.
Post by: Cruxador on March 14, 2015, 06:32:00 pm
Have you thought about establishing "forts" in cities? I'm thinking anything from walled communities to ghettos to Christians worshipping in the catacombs.This came up in one of the earlier dwarf fort talks. Short answer is yes.
Post by: Robsoie on March 14, 2015, 08:34:10 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=51245.msg5651974#msg5651974
Unfortunately it later appeared that it was just the worldgen that had put in fact a temple so close to a castle that their underground mixed a bit.
Post by: hops on March 15, 2015, 11:43:21 pm
Of course, Footkerchief or someone will probably manage to find something, but at this point I'll take looking dumb over wasting more time trying to find an official answer to this.
Is there any official plan to implement emigration to Dwarf Fortress? How is it going to work? Will the player have control over it?
In fact...
Will the players be able to turn away migrants in the near future?
Post by: Vattic on March 16, 2015, 12:20:53 am
Scenarios are coming in the near future and may lead to changed migration.
Post by: Ops Fox on March 16, 2015, 02:10:24 am
Is the work you intend to do on farming with tracking moisture going to be laying the groundwork for some future farming updates that you plan to do or will this probably be your only pass at farming for some time? also do you only intend to track moisture for "dirt" tiles and exclude plain stone so as to minimize computing?
[Edited for grammar. Extend the question]
Post by: Gokajern on March 17, 2015, 12:48:10 pm
Post by: LordBaal on March 17, 2015, 12:55:47 pm
I don't want to be perceived as judgmental or even critic of your work because certainly I haven't earned such rights, and I know DF lore is based but quite different from the standard fantasy setting, however still, don't you think it's a little out of character for goblins to mind about poetry like this?
Post by: Knight Otu on March 17, 2015, 01:35:48 pm
What is the effect of art on the world? In a recent devlog it is mentioned that a human created an art form for moral lessons in a gobling civ, does the civ change its moraility based on the poems? Is art right now only for entertainment? Will we ever see the pen being mightier than the sword?It's almost certainly just entertainment right now. Civilizations changing is planned and technically possible already, but it's not really in the confines of the tavern release. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the morality lesson form was not chosen because of the creator's dissatisfaction with goblin society, but somewhat randomly. And you know what they say about "ever" questions. :P
Post by: palu on March 17, 2015, 04:21:08 pm
Post by: Baffler on March 18, 2015, 10:57:56 am
What is the effect of art on the world? In a recent devlog it is mentioned that a human created an art form for moral lessons in a gobling civ, does the civ change its moraility based on the poems? Is art right now only for entertainment? Will we ever see the pen being mightier than the sword?It's almost certainly just entertainment right now. Civilizations changing is planned and technically possible already, but it's not really in the confines of the tavern release. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the morality lesson form was not chosen because of the creator's dissatisfaction with goblin society, but somewhat randomly. And you know what they say about "ever" questions. :P
Or they're just lessons that promote Goblin morals (or those of the author's race.) Maybe goblin children grow up hearing stories of Bone Gnarlycarnage who murdered his way to the top like a true goblin and sat in his rightful place on a throne of skulls for 1500 years before he got turned inside out by a demon or whatever.
Post by: Kogan Loloklam on March 20, 2015, 07:49:43 pm
(referring to the study of poetic elf forms that returned to his civ. Human Seeker of truth finds religion in dwarvish god of hate, and starts a temple in his civ.)
Will 'schools' of (dance/poetry/song/exc.) Attempt to supress divergent styles?
Will religions have style flavors, and if so, can they be declared heretical?
Will religions try to destroy each other and purge megabeast cults and other non-civ religions?
Will favoritism lead to teachers spreading knowledge of rare forms only to their "best student"?
If the previous is true, could that lead to murder?
Mostly I am curious about the kinds of murderous motivations these new changes might add.
Edit: aaaaand updated devlog expanding this train of thought...
Will religions sometimes consider certain knowledge heretical and hold book and/or people burning to supress it?
And if so...
Will religious hit squads(or other 'suppression of knowledge' crews) show up to kidnap tavern patrons or even your own dwarves? And can you choose between giving up or hiding Uristileo possibly risking an inquisition attack and Civil War in your fort?
Post by: LordBaal on March 20, 2015, 10:14:53 pm
Quote from: Toady
So you knew you were getting libraries, right? I mean...You know what? I think I can speak in the name of all of us DF fans, when I say WE LOVE YOU!
However remember to put your questions in green for us to answer you :P
Post by: Mel_Vixen on March 20, 2015, 11:26:15 pm
Quote
So you knew you were getting libraries, right?
No that came out of the Blue! But actually the loss of knowledge is a very common thing in early history. a human brain can only store so many facts and details (without forgetting fudging etc.) thats why some native civilisation sgot rather primitive after the population shrunk due to one thing or another.
So now maths and engineering :P will we get differential gears and banana Spaces?
Generally speaking what are the highest ideas the dorfs or any other civ can come up with? What about spheres and the Metaphysical/magical stuff in the world?
i know its banach space
Post by: Urist Arrhenius on March 20, 2015, 11:46:54 pm
Post by: Zarathustra30 on March 21, 2015, 12:02:34 am
At this point, I am too excited to ask questions. I can only speculate wildly.
This new "knowledge" thing could lead to some pretty weird stuff. I was under the impression it was coming on the civilization/site level, but the individual level is just astounding. I was expecting something like procedurally generated reactions, but with knowledge and levels and stuff, that could mean individuals create things in their own unique way. Or train animals.
Ah! I do have a question, oh Great Toady One! Are there plans to integrate the animal training knowledge with rest of the knowledge system before the next major release? (The one after this one)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 21, 2015, 02:13:19 am
Post by: Kestrel on March 21, 2015, 06:46:52 am
Would reading books give some dwarfs a happy thought?
Do different forms of art, music, poetry, and literature have the typical ranges of quality (masterwork, etc.) associated with them?
Post by: Naryar on March 21, 2015, 07:01:42 am
i am vibrating with anticipation
Post by: WordsandChaos on March 21, 2015, 07:34:09 am
Post by: endlessblaze on March 21, 2015, 07:57:47 am
Post by: Shashu on March 21, 2015, 10:07:29 am
Quote
So you knew you were getting libraries, right?
This kind of thing is why DF will always be miles ahead of its imitators. Awesome!
Post by: thvaz on March 21, 2015, 10:08:52 am
Quote
human values are randomized for each instance of civilization now
woot
Post by: Robsoie on March 21, 2015, 11:35:45 am
Quote
The outlines are ready for mathematicians, philosophers, historians, geographers, doctors, naturalists, and astronomers. I'm using the same master-student framework for them as they work on research projects,Interesting, i wonder if it will work at gameplay time and NPC will teach and learn while you're walking around, or if this NPC development will be worldgen only.
Quote
So you knew you were getting libraries, right?It was inevitable.
Post by: Broken on March 21, 2015, 11:59:06 am
Does that mean there will be maps in Libraries, allowing to discover new locations?
Post by: Vattic on March 21, 2015, 12:49:58 pm
Quote from: Toady One
human values are randomized for each instance of civilization nowDoes this mean we are likely to see humans fighting amongst themselves now?
Are the values similar to spheres in that related ones are more likely to group together and vice versa?
Post by: Man In Zero G on March 21, 2015, 01:41:05 pm
Quote
The outlines are ready for mathematicians, philosophers, historians, geographers, doctors, naturalists, and astronomersAre we getting the Philosopher back?! That would be cool.
The second thought I had reading the dev log was this scenario:
A thriving civilization, scholars from around the world congregating and exchanging ideas, storing the collective knowledge of the world in a vast, Alexandria-like Library.
Then the dragon/goblin army led by their demonic Overlord/fire-breathing titan/adventure mode PC shows up, slaughters the scholars and burns the library, setting back the pace of learning by centuries. Awesome.
So - books do burn, right? Will this be a thing?
Post by: Inarius on March 21, 2015, 01:44:57 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on March 21, 2015, 02:29:40 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on March 21, 2015, 02:50:17 pm
What about spheres and the Metaphysical/magical stuff in the world?That will probably have to wait for the mentioned myth generation stuff for the Artifacts section.
Are we getting the Philosopher back?! That would be cool.No. There'll be dwarves of a philosophical bent, that may be called philosophers even, but there won't be a singular noble position called the Philosopher.
Post by: stolide on March 21, 2015, 02:55:33 pm
https://soundcloud.com/nethodsod/the-grasping-oaks (https://soundcloud.com/nethodsod/the-grasping-oaks)
It should be quite easy to program, since all I did was follow the two meters exactly, and then pick a random sequence from the chords for the melody. It alternates between the two chords, and has a brief segment where I randomly picked any notes from the whole scale. That happens between 1:45 and 2:30.
Post by: Paaaad on March 21, 2015, 06:55:47 pm
Post by: Man In Zero G on March 21, 2015, 07:01:32 pm
Also, if a dwarf arrives at your fort with a book, or makes one after arriving, where would it be stored if you don't have a library defined?Books are, if I am not mistaken, currently stored in finished goods stockpiles. I doubt that will change.
Post by: Paaaad on March 21, 2015, 07:15:21 pm
Ah. I was really just wondering if a dwarf would stick a book they owned in their chest, cabinet, or even just under their bed if they had the option.Also, if a dwarf arrives at your fort with a book, or makes one after arriving, where would it be stored if you don't have a library defined?Books are, if I am not mistaken, currently stored in finished goods stockpiles. I doubt that will change.
Post by: Man In Zero G on March 21, 2015, 07:30:17 pm
Post by: Kogan Loloklam on March 21, 2015, 08:48:44 pm
I already brought this up in the suggestions, but how do you feel about the game producing actual music following the rules you generate? As in, simple one voice folk songs that you hear when you walk by a musician who's playing. I made a song following one of your formats by just picking random notes and rests within the chords generated for a form.
https://soundcloud.com/nethodsod/the-grasping-oaks (https://soundcloud.com/nethodsod/the-grasping-oaks)
It should be quite easy to program, since all I did was follow the two meters exactly, and then pick a random sequence from the chords for the melody. It alternates between the two chords, and has a brief segment where I randomly picked any notes from the whole scale. That happens between 1:45 and 2:30.
Spoiler: "Text of the song I think" (click to show/hide)
This song should be accompanied by a chant. Given the name, I suspect it should be an elvish chant of an unspecified but specific poetic form. It's a primary melody done passionate and loudly. Also the chordal guidelines were 'melancholic and soft' for the instrument.
Generated music suffers from the interpretation problem. Toady couldn't make something that could do this justice, although we can take the data and demonstrate the richness it represents. That is what really makes this game great. I look forward to hearing what you output on the next release, but don't expect this in the game because it isn't practical. Unless you really want to argue my opinion of the tone being not soft or melancholic is an error on my part and most of the world would disagree? I guess he could eliminate the descriptions and make it an entire generated sound file, but then he'll have to make that poetry generator he always threatens about in the form he threatens, and a text to speech synthesizer, and other stuff that is inconsistent with an ascii game he made.
No, what you ask for is and always will be in the realm of user created content. Inspired by DF, but made by us. Please though, make more, inspired by the legends of worlds you play in.
Post by: stolide on March 22, 2015, 01:21:31 am
I already brought this up in the suggestions, but how do you feel about the game producing actual music following the rules you generate? As in, simple one voice folk songs that you hear when you walk by a musician who's playing. I made a song following one of your formats by just picking random notes and rests within the chords generated for a form.
https://soundcloud.com/nethodsod/the-grasping-oaks (https://soundcloud.com/nethodsod/the-grasping-oaks)
It should be quite easy to program, since all I did was follow the two meters exactly, and then pick a random sequence from the chords for the melody. It alternates between the two chords, and has a brief segment where I randomly picked any notes from the whole scale. That happens between 1:45 and 2:30.Spoiler: "Text of the song I think" (click to show/hide)
This song should be accompanied by a chant. Given the name, I suspect it should be an elvish chant of an unspecified but specific poetic form. It's a primary melody done passionate and loudly. Also the chordal guidelines were 'melancholic and soft' for the instrument.
Generated music suffers from the interpretation problem. Toady couldn't make something that could do this justice, although we can take the data and demonstrate the richness it represents. That is what really makes this game great. I look forward to hearing what you output on the next release, but don't expect this in the game because it isn't practical. Unless you really want to argue my opinion of the tone being not soft or melancholic is an error on my part and most of the world would disagree? I guess he could eliminate the descriptions and make it an entire generated sound file, but then he'll have to make that poetry generator he always threatens about in the form he threatens, and a text to speech synthesizer, and other stuff that is inconsistent with an ascii game he made.
No, what you ask for is and always will be in the realm of user created content. Inspired by DF, but made by us. Please though, make more, inspired by the legends of worlds you play in.
That specific song form should have chants, yes. Also, those chords will never sound melancholic, unless you use notes outside them, or use extremely carefully considered expression. A vocalist would certainly make that easier.
What I am suggesting, is that simple one voice songs can be generated within the meters and scales generated by DF. That's what I did. I didn't put in chants, because that would be difficult to generate. The song that I made only has things that I thought would be easy to program.
The idea is that such a song is more like a jam session by the musicians in the game. You would hear it when within a certain distance of musicians that are playing, and the song would be appropriate to the song form that the musician plays.
Toady, would you consider making key parts of the randomly generated musical forms stored in such a way that they could be reasonably easily accessed by external programs that convert them into audible music?
Post by: MrWiggles on March 22, 2015, 03:45:12 am
[/quote]
They're more then likely in the histoy of the world. Which means you dump out as .xml files.
Post by: Kogan Loloklam on March 22, 2015, 07:48:07 am
That specific song form should have chants, yes. Also, those chords will never sound melancholic, unless you use notes outside them, or use extremely carefully considered expression. A vocalist would certainly make that easier.I get that those notes are probably difficult to play melancholic. I'm not a musician and don't know what all the descriptions mean, nor do I know what a rofela is. I do know that upbeat music played on an indian flute can sound pretty melancholic to me. It would be cool to have a musical change as you approach musicians. Not sure what he plans now for adventures approaching it. Maybe something like "You hear music and/or singing to the northeast or something. Playing a different speical tract of music at the same time would definitely improve atmosphere. I wonder if he is planning that?
What I am suggesting, is that simple one voice songs can be generated within the meters and scales generated by DF. That's what I did. I didn't put in chants, because that would be difficult to generate. The song that I made only has things that I thought would be easy to program.
The idea is that such a song is more like a jam session by the musicians in the game. You would hear it when within a certain distance of musicians that are playing, and the song would be appropriate to the song form that the musician plays.
Toady, would you consider making key parts of the randomly generated musical forms stored in such a way that they could be reasonably easily accessed by external programs that convert them into audible music?
As for the xml dump, specify how you would find it useful. Like MrWiggles says, right now you are likely to get it in the same format as exists currently.
(Edit: question in blue was answered by Simrobert2001. Thanks Simrobert2001.)
Toady, will you be making a different soundtrack that plays according to events in game to improve situational awareness? Like a 'combat to the death' tract, a 'I hear music' tract, a 'I'm quick traveling' tract, exc...
And...
How do you plan to display adventures approaching music?
Post by: King_of_Baboons on March 22, 2015, 08:12:30 am
Its so beautiful.....
Please consider adding some of those awesome ideas:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149573.0
Post by: lethosor on March 22, 2015, 08:32:11 am
specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Post by: CLA on March 22, 2015, 09:17:13 am
Do you have any plans to have them create books while in player fortresses? Will we be able to create libraries ourselves (like a hospital or temple zone or whatever) and attract scholars?
I assume none of this would make it in this release anyway, but do you have plans to do this a few years down the road from now?
Edit: just noticed
Quote from: devlog
The outlines are ready for [...] geographers [...]
Does this include cartography? And by extension, will that mean the world map you see in adventure mode will be influenced by your civs cartographic/geographic knowledge? Will we be able to find physical maps?
In general, will the book framework be used for anything else than actual books? I'm thinking of pamphlets, proclamations, wanted posters, and as mentioned, maps.
Post by: stolide on March 22, 2015, 10:02:39 am
They're more then likely in the histoy of the world. Which means you dump out as .xml files.
Yeah, but I expect it's just the paragraphs we see, which means you need a text parser to pick out the important bits if you want something to just plug into DF and spit out music. If we get something that looks more like creature or civ raws, then it just has to go to the right variables and get the numbers it needs.
Post by: catoblepas on March 22, 2015, 12:04:23 pm
Post by: flabort on March 22, 2015, 12:16:55 pm
Since necros are not the only ones making books now, will we see existing professions creating books to pass down knowledge? (Fisherdwarfs giving casting techniques or guides to what fish are best when, animal trainers cataloging things that they tamed, miners keeping diaries, craftsdwarves writing about the proper usage of tools, etc)
Although the reason I didn't see it might be because it's venturing into suggestion territory, we do know that the new artists are getting books, so it's more like who else will be getting book-writing functionality?
Post by: Ribs on March 22, 2015, 03:46:35 pm
Post by: Authority2 on March 22, 2015, 06:19:46 pm
Post by: Dirst on March 22, 2015, 07:08:18 pm
After reading the brilliant devlog, I wish the game would tell us stories instead of us having to search the histories for them now."DF, tell me a story."
"Yadda yadda yadda... Your fortress has crumbled to its end."
Post by: LordBaal on March 22, 2015, 08:17:06 pm
By fiery magma and clowns.After reading the brilliant devlog, I wish the game would tell us stories instead of us having to search the histories for them now."DF, tell me a story."
"Yadda yadda yadda... Your fortress has crumbled to its end."
Post by: Putnam on March 22, 2015, 08:29:59 pm
After reading the brilliant devlog, I wish the game would tell us stories instead of us having to search the histories for them now.
https://xkcd.com/1425/
I mean, it's not "virtually impossible", but it'll certainly be quite a diversion when it happens.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on March 22, 2015, 08:42:58 pm
Often great writers/artists like that other Adams everyone knows, the late Terry Pratchett and alike leave unfinished works to very untimely deaths. Will we be able to see such works?
Also now with books more commonplace will the Bookkeeper actualy keep book?
Post by: Idranel on March 22, 2015, 09:17:23 pm
Have you heard about weighted A* search which introduces a constant factor w (with w > 1) to A*'s admissible heuristic to improve execution time by trading off the optimality of the results to be no worse than w times the optimal solution ?
Edit for clarification: My intention is to get a quick yes/no-like answer before I'll attempt to write a potentially redundant, proper, lengthy and formal suggestion post about ε-admissible search algorithms that are based on weighted A*.
Post by: SimRobert2001 on March 22, 2015, 10:51:39 pm
Quoteiirc, we were told that toady wont include new music because its actually him playing the music, and that takes a lot of time from programming.
Toady, will you be making a different soundtrack that plays according to events in game to improve situational awareness? Like a 'combat to the death' tract, a 'I hear music' tract, a 'I'm quick traveling' tract, exc...
Post by: Vattic on March 23, 2015, 04:06:22 am
Post by: Putnam on March 23, 2015, 04:12:29 am
Post by: MrWiggles on March 23, 2015, 07:17:17 am
Suggestions go to the Suggestion Forum. There have many threads about path finding. Necro one or start a new one.
Have you heard about weighted A* search which introduces a constant factor w (with w > 1) to A*'s admissible heuristic to improve execution time by trading off the optimality of the results to be no worse than w times the optimal solution ?
Post by: Galena on March 23, 2015, 07:44:25 am
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2015, 07:52:02 am
Quote
a good thing, since the early tests without books led to the expected and repeated tragic loss of knowledge and the constant rediscovery of previously known facts without much progress toward advanced techniques.
Oddly enough it isn't always a loss of knowledge caused by tragedy in real life.
An extremely common event is simply that no one can or is willing to adopt the technology and is lost simply through disuse.
It is why with technology that there is something known as the "Social cost of new technology"
It is why even though we had many books on technology that existed that we "rediscovered currently known facts" over and over again.
Post by: Delioth on March 23, 2015, 10:23:43 am
Toady- have you thought about tweaking with crossbows/ranged weapons having fixed ranges? i.e. the idea of firing a crossbow from a 3z high tower to get extra range?
Post by: KillerClowns on March 23, 2015, 10:26:48 am
Post by: Idranel on March 23, 2015, 11:54:51 am
Suggestions go to the Suggestion Forum. There have many threads about path finding. Necro one or start a new one.
Have you heard about weighted A* search which introduces a constant factor w (with w > 1) to A*'s admissible heuristic to improve execution time by trading off the optimality of the results to be no worse than w times the optimal solution ?
I might just do that but it'll end up being quite long. I'd prefer not to waste his (and my) time by writing too much about things he is already aware off.
In the interest of saving everyone's time I think this is a perfectly valid yes/no-question before writing a long and formal suggestion post. And I've tried my best to keep it simple without sounding like I'm suggesting he should do x or y.
Weighted A* is one of these basic concepts quite a few other things are based on. To my surprise it seems to be rare to encounter it outside of lectures on autonomous robotics/driving but to assume he never heard of them feels like underestimating Toady.
Post by: Andeerz on March 23, 2015, 04:19:02 pm
Post by: mangulwort on March 23, 2015, 04:20:05 pm
Post by: Fieari on March 23, 2015, 11:46:14 pm
If I think up a new fantasy philosophy, can I have the philosophers in game discover it? Or when the history department at my local IRL university thinks up a new historiography method, do we have to wait for it to be hard coded in or can we just add it to the RAWs ourselves?
For that matter, what about ideas that aren't just ambiguously correct, but are clearly wrong? People wrote books and chased down clearly false ideas plenty of times in history. It's a part of science too, to propose an idea that might not work out.
Seeing a civilization that, for example, firmly believes in the physicality of darkness (and light being the lack of said darkness) would be fascinating. Or seeing libraries devoted to a false idea that side tracked all their researchers into not being able to develop a particular technology would be amazing.
Two reasons a civilization might not have a technology-- either they aren't studying, or they're studying the wrong things.
Post by: MrTimms on March 24, 2015, 12:44:06 am
Will the new knowledge "tech forest" be accessible in the RAWs?
If I think up a new fantasy philosophy, can I have the philosophers in game discover it? Or when the history department at my local IRL university thinks up a new historiography method, do we have to wait for it to be hard coded in or can we just add it to the RAWs ourselves?
Please, based Toady.
Post by: Putnam on March 24, 2015, 05:59:01 am
Suggestions go to the Suggestion Forum. There have many threads about path finding. Necro one or start a new one.
Have you heard about weighted A* search which introduces a constant factor w (with w > 1) to A*'s admissible heuristic to improve execution time by trading off the optimality of the results to be no worse than w times the optimal solution ?
I might just do that but it'll end up being quite long. I'd prefer not to waste his (and my) time by writing too much about things he is already aware off.
In the interest of saving everyone's time I think this is a perfectly valid yes/no-question before writing a long and formal suggestion post. And I've tried my best to keep it simple without sounding like I'm suggesting he should do x or y.
Weighted A* is one of these basic concepts quite a few other things are based on. To my surprise it seems to be rare to encounter it outside of lectures on autonomous robotics/driving but to assume he never heard of them feels like underestimating Toady.
To put a wrap on this: I'm almost entirely sure that Dwarf Fortress already uses weighted A*, at least based on the fact that pathing has various weights that you can adjust in-game, with the default being 2.
Post by: expwnent on March 24, 2015, 06:15:50 am
To put a wrap on this: I'm almost entirely sure that Dwarf Fortress already uses weighted A*, at least based on the fact that pathing has various weights that you can adjust in-game, with the default being 2.
He was talking about a particular enhancement which does not produce optimal paths but runs faster than A*. Fun fact: you can actually prove that the only way to make A* faster (explore fewer vertices) without sometimes getting suboptimal paths is by using a better distance heuristic. The proof is on wikipedia if you're interested.
For users: decrease the Normal path cost to 1 in your forts to make A* faster. DF uses the High traffic designation weight in the distance heuristic, so if actual path weights are closer to that, it will explore fewer vertices.
Post by: reality.auditor on March 24, 2015, 06:30:18 am
And about false knowledge... this is pretty hard topic, as you can be mistaken in gazilion ways. In fact, humanity is always mistaken - it just gets less wrong with time. Fortunately, it is enough.
Post by: Cobbler89 on March 24, 2015, 07:45:38 am
Post by: Rose on March 24, 2015, 07:50:03 am
Post by: endlessblaze on March 24, 2015, 07:58:37 am
I wouldn't be surprised if we get books about themselves.
This is "on the self" a gold bound book. It menaces with spikes of ruby. The book details the creation of itself, it as often praised by scholars for its tendency to stir self reflection in the reader.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 24, 2015, 08:04:46 am
Will the new knowledge "tech forest" be accessible in the RAWs?It's pretty unlikely for this time around. Raws will apparently influence the available topics so we get books like "Anatomy of the Magma Crab" or "Caring for your Plump Helmet farm", but I'd expect that RAWification of innovations will have to wait until (or even until after) the innovations affect what the civ can do.
If I think up a new fantasy philosophy, can I have the philosophers in game discover it? Or when the history department at my local IRL university thinks up a new historiography method, do we have to wait for it to be hard coded in or can we just add it to the RAWs ourselves?
Post by: Urist_McDagger on March 24, 2015, 11:16:24 am
Quote
that implies some investigators will need to be at least well-read if not skilled in various topics (there aren't currently joint research projects).Does that mean that, eventually, we will have hunters that have read books about specific critters and know how they usually act in a state of terror? I.e. that we will have hunters that do not run up next to an elephant before it has dealt a lethal blow?
If so; will this be expanded upon to enable hunters/players to aim for lethal points in sentient creatures/critters, if they've read a book about the biology of, say, humans?
Post by: Eric Blank on March 24, 2015, 01:03:21 pm
Will Kobolds dance in the next update? In the raws they seem to not understand the concept of music but Koblds must have some way to express joy when they successfully steal treasure.
They might not be able to sing, but damn can they dance!
Alternatively, their expression of joy may be obnoxious screaming.
Post by: Zavvnao on March 24, 2015, 02:22:32 pm
I mean things at most like hints of how the ancient Romans had a gear-like computer for guessing stars, and ancient Egyptians understood steam power, but wheres just at novelty levels?
Also, for elves and dwarves, I could see either or both knowing a lot about sound like the ancient Maya, who had temples that could turn the sound of clapping into the sound of a bird. The acoustic understanding would fit dwarves living in winding, underground places. Elves, it would fit their nature and such in a more natural way.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 24, 2015, 10:37:28 pm
I kind of like the idea at the moment where one badass ranger journeys into the depths of the world and tames the giant olms through sheer force of will.
Post by: Ribs on March 25, 2015, 12:06:29 am
Post by: Zarathustra30 on March 25, 2015, 12:46:31 am
Post by: LordBaal on March 25, 2015, 09:35:49 am
Post by: Robsoie on March 25, 2015, 10:09:48 am
That led me to wondering then if accidentally or by bug or by facetious adventurer bringing it , a necromancer book end into the fortress library, will that fort be filled by lots of new necromancers in no time ?
Post by: LordBaal on March 25, 2015, 10:24:49 am
fort be filled by lots of new necromancers in no time ?That should be fun.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 25, 2015, 10:50:03 am
Post by: blue sam3 on March 25, 2015, 04:53:09 pm
With the 1400 cut-off date, could we expect world-gen ruins that hint at more advanced things you can't be build by any of the civs?
I mean things at most like hints of how the ancient Romans had a gear-like computer for guessing stars, and ancient Egyptians understood steam power, but wheres just at novelty levels?
Also, for elves and dwarves, I could see either or both knowing a lot about sound like the ancient Maya, who had temples that could turn the sound of clapping into the sound of a bird. The acoustic understanding would fit dwarves living in winding, underground places. Elves, it would fit their nature and such in a more natural way.
That could be a decent extra source of "new" inventions, actually - you could have people wandering around in the ruins, finding old stuff, playing around with it, and making related advances.
Post by: Vattic on March 25, 2015, 05:04:26 pm
I assume that a lot of people in the generated world will have some reader skill even if minimal, as what would be the point for a writer to write a book in worldgen if none can ever read it, and with the teacher/student system i guess the reader skill will now be learnable.Book title "A is for Adamantine". I hope most won't be able to read and that reading be seen as a status symbol.
Post by: Urist Arrhenius on March 25, 2015, 05:15:47 pm
and with the teacher/student system i guess the reader skill will now be learnable.This actually brings up a good point.
In adv mode will the player be able to become a student of a scholar, and later become a teacher themselves? Will adv players be able to create books?
Post by: MrTimms on March 25, 2015, 11:26:37 pm
Post by: SimRobert2001 on March 26, 2015, 01:11:22 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on March 26, 2015, 08:14:08 am
Post by: Baffler on March 28, 2015, 05:50:06 pm
How will the game actually differ between short and long world gen? What will the technological differences be?
Further, Will research be conducted in our own fortresses? If that research is fruitful, will it spread out of the fort in some way, say travelling scholars visiting the library as well as the tavern?
Post by: Urist McGoombaBrother on March 30, 2015, 01:27:04 pm
When this is moddable and one day ingame-functionality is added, will we be able to add custom effects to those innovations? e.g. double blade axe => 10 per cent faster chopping than with standard axe, double blade axe with extra sharp blades => 20 % faster chopping than standard axe, etc.
Also when moddable, will we be able to add tech trees for completely random studies e.g. plump helmet science or tree hugging techniques for elves? Just for personal amusement and to be able to find books or engravings about this or that.
Just, for the big picture, is the innovation system currently implemented as major feature of the adventure mode only? Or is this also a major topic for fortress mode?
Post by: Dirst on March 30, 2015, 01:41:48 pm
Post by: Toady One on March 30, 2015, 07:44:16 pm
Quote from: Verdant_Squire
since music/poems/dances seem to be civ specific, will there also be a degree of cultural diffusion where nearby civilizations learn/adopt some of the traditions of their neighbors? It'd be neat if stuff like local cultural regions and stuff would emerge over time in game.
We have the innovations spreading through books and teachers, and we have artists writing books and teaching their students as well, and those students can be from various cultures, but it doesn't have an easy way to go back to the student's town once a student leaves home, since they'll either remain with their troupe or go off to become a noble and not pass on artistic data. With the festivals I'm working on now, it might be possible to have a broader transfer, but right now it doesn't transfer local forms from one place to another, and I don't have info for adopted forms outside of individual knowledge yet or any form evolution (just the occasion new form).
So at the individual level, we have some diffusion, and we have books that get copied around spreading through the world, but nothing new gets in the bones of the civs yet -- but we're right on the brink and it's not very difficult now to take that step at some point.
Quote
Quote from: Charles2531With the additions of poems now, obviously poems will need to be written on something at some point. Is it right to assume we will see some type of paper industry added into the game, along with actual book production. Have you thought much about how this will be implemented, for example, whether books have to be handwritten or if there will instead be printing presses? Possibility of informational texts that could help dwarves learn new skills (this might be most balanced without printing presses as such books would therefore be time-consuming to produce, and therefore expensive)?Quote from: KestrelIf you make libraries available to fortress mode, could they be used to improve dwarf skills like diagnostics and architecture?
Would reading books give some dwarfs a happy thought?
Do different forms of art, music, poetry, and literature have the typical ranges of quality (masterwork, etc.) associated with them?Quote from: catoblepasAre there any upcoming plans to include training manuals or something similar for dwarves to train skills with?
We've been fudging books for a while now, and I'm not sure if that's going to change yet. Depending on how you think of the printing press, it's either before or after the 1400 cutoff it seems, so we could toy around with that later. Right now, everything is hand-copied in world generation in the libraries.
There are currently no practical skill books. We need to link innovations to existing skills, and we need more innovations that cover existing skills. And there's probably room for generic books describing the basic work of professions beyond that, perhaps -- it depends on what a skill means as the knowledge system expands.
I haven't yet associated the typical quality levels to poems, though there are related skills and it might fit to do so, since we already assign skill levels to engravings and so forth. I'm still messing around with it.
Quote from: crapabear
what kind of experiments are you doing with your test myth generator? Is it something that came up because of the addition of temples, or something that may end up being folded into starting scenarios? What kinds of myths are we talking about, and how crazy can the results get?
These myths are meant to take the world from its starting point (whether that's primordial chaos, or an endless mud flat, or a cosmic egg, or coupled divine beings, or nothingness, or an endless cycle, or whatever), and then bring the story up to the point where the year 1 situation of world generation has solid backing, in terms of the existence of the proto-civs, the land, the megabeasts, the underground, all of it. Yeah, we started playing with it more seriously because of the upcoming w.g. artifacts and the religious stuff coming for start scenarios, and now we're pretty sure the myth generator will be put in the game either before or during the first w.g. artifact release, since they'll be tied together. And who knows what else will happen.
I'm not sure how to evaluate the quality of the results -- say, after some stuff happens and we have some freshly created dwarves, the celestial ibis mates with the sun and lays an egg which contains the progenitors of a giant-sized race who all come to reside in their lost city and forge the device which weaves the destiny of the dwarves and the dwarves rebel and break the device and that's why dwarves grow old and die now, or whatever. It just grinds away and things happen, tossing in different worlds and nature spirits and forces and races and artifacts and second-generation gods and whatever. At the end there's a kind of overlap where everything is explained (why dwarves die, etc.) but you've also sort of started history -- this leads to questions about whether you'd be able to play in an actual Age of Myth where dwarves don't yet age and the sun doesn't exist, or something. As usual, the number of options will simply expand over time, and the myths will only be partially used at first. It leads to lots of interesting relationships that differ from world to world, and we'll try to use those in the ways people talk and what they can do, but it's a large project.
I also tried to experiment a bit with building origin stories from the facts at hand, so it can trace back and find the relevant events and make a paragraph containing only the pertinent bits, so different races might see things differently, but that's all very rough. There's also the matter of the current "localized" pantheons, and how that will play out when there's actually a unifying correct story is unfortunate, in terms of cultural differences. We might play around with distortions of the true data, and just having everybody be partially wrong (or everybody is right, in their way), but that's always hard, especially early on when we don't have a good handle on the data structures for correct data. Lots of options, lots of ways to handle it, and we'll only get to some of them. We might be approaching the point where we can actually have a nice slider for the simple world gen parameters, in terms of supernaturalness (although dwarves would stay at the lowest setting for a long while yet).
Quote from: Edmus
When engravings and statues can be commissioned, will this extend to being able to demand poets and musicians compose pieces pertaining to specific HFs or events?
It seems within the realm of possibility -- setting up the menu for specifics of the poems would be kind of a nightmare, but sending in one focal point (and materials) is about what we're planning to do for the other artwork, so it should all work together.
Quote from: utunnels
Since there will be taverns, doesn't it mean there will be more units on the map? Is it possible to have more population related settings?
It isn't much different from the merchants that visit you with several units. Without the start scenarios, the settings for how visitors work will probably be simple and artificial if we have any. I'm not sure yet exactly how you'll publicize your existence in this first release -- it'll either just happen or be a on/off switch.
Quote from: Farmerbob
Two tavern and mug related questions:
First, have you considered adding 'breaking mugs' as a celebratory tavern activity? The breaking of the mugs would generate happiness in the craftsdwarf who made the mug, and the breaker of the mug, with the happiness generated being dependent on the craftdwarfship of the mugs? Dwarves would always collect the best mugs they could from the stockpiles.
Second, have you considered allowing artifact mugs and musical instruments to be added to taverns as part of the décor, increasing the happiness of dwarves that see them in much the same way as levers can be admired? Perhaps do the same with figurines, jewelry, and scepters in temples?
I haven't considered it at all -- right now a broken masterpiece mug would make the craftsdwarf upset, unless this is an idiom I'm not familiar with.
I'm not sure how the association of objects with taverns will work -- we're going to just get started on the specifics of dwarf mode activities once I polish off festivals. Certain instruments need to be placed as furniture, and they can be admired. I'm not sure about other objects -- I haven't done anything with displaying items yet.
Quote from: Andeerz
From what has been shown of the music/poetry style generation so far, it seems like the differences between styles generated by different cultures are all pretty much random. Is this correct? And, if so, will this be the case for other kinds of generated knowledge, such as combat styles? Or will other things factor in? For example, with music styles, might a culture's exposure to another music style factor into the generation of their own music style, perhaps basing their new style on the other resulting in a style sharing certain features? For another example with combat styles, will a culture frequently exposed to a specific combat style or enemy generate a combat style geared towards countering the other combat style or particular enemy?
I'm starting with people generating new forms from scratch, because the morphing/influence of forms is more work. It's certainly doable, but it'll take more time.
Quote from: MaxTM
I could swear I remember seeing you say you wish there were an easier way to switch between fort and adventure modes. Do you have any ideas on how you would be going about this, or when you would be shooting for pushing it out?
There are plenty of ways to think of how it might be, but I don't really like the idea of just being able to become one of the dwarves at any time and then switch back. It seems like it'd nullify fort obstacles and it would also destroy the autonomy of the selected dwarf and their circle of relations. So that sort of direct/flippant transfer isn't so high a priority for me. Something more controlled seems fine, especially when we get to the point of assuming the role of a given historical figure as a beginning for adventure mode. No schedule as usual.
Quote from: utunnels
Is there a reason why we can't construct most buildings near the edge? We can build floors and draw bridges and use them to seal the map anyway. So why not walls?
It was originally to stop sieges from breaking if I remember, but it is as old as the left-right orientation of the map so it has probably been outmoded in many ways. I'm hesitant to mess with it.
Quote from: King_of_Baboons
Will it be possible to create or completely change the poetry/religion/combat styles of your civilization while you play Fortress/Adventure Mode?
Will it be finally possible to make acts of profanation or heresy in Adventure Mode?
Will players be able to create their own cults and religions with their own laws and rules?
I don't think you'll have manual control over art/etc. at this point. Not sure if it'll be related to the ability to further specify item construction jobs from the dev pages.
I don't remember if there's any direct way for you to topple furniture like dwarves do, so it might not work that way. The rest depends on how dwarf temples evolve and whether or not violence against temple people is recognized, but there might not be any in dwarf mode yet. I bring that up because the adventure mode mechanics for that will likely be working with whatever happens in dwarf mode.
I'm not going to do any rule setting until the start scenario rewrite guts everything.
Quote from: falcc
What do you see as the long term future of poisons and poison classes? Will there be generated poison classes so various creatures could be immune to one another or susceptible to one another? I know poisoning isn't very Dwarfy, but could creatures gradually develop immunity or cures for various kinds of creature poisons? I'm thinking fish growing immune to anemones, but also adventurers developing poison immunities through controlled exposure.
Yeah, I never got around to doing anything with those classes, but the whole idea was that there'd be groupings for immunity purposes as you describe. I don't know much about the controlled exposure stuff -- depending on the critter, I've heard everything from that being reasonable to it just causing worse anaphylaxis on repeated exposure. In general, exposure and so forth are important for our fantasy stuff, and it'll hopefully all be handled in a single system that could be used for whatever syndrome.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
How do you feel about ancient technologies such as Hero's steam engine (62ish AD) and the Antikythera mechanism (205 BC)?
I don't have strong feelings about them, and a lot of what I've encountered seemed to be speculative. To the extent that people demonstrate things, we can continue to add innovations. I think differential gears come up somewhere below. I don't want to turn DF into a steampunk game, but valid stuff that can be done with steam within the cutoff is fine. There are some things people might have figured out but didn't for whatever reason, and we'll be leaning away from those.
Quote from: Urist Tilaturist
When will humans finally be able to steal dwarven steel making technology? We could do it by 1400, and we are very good at stealing ideas.
I'm not sure how I'm going to handle that -- we'll have a better idea once reactions can be tied to innovations. It might be the harder problem to prevent stealing at that point, the way people write things down.
Quote from: Pootis
What's the timeframe for the current release? Will this one be another year+ in development or are we moving towards a more frequent cycle of updates?
We're finishing up the framework/world gen/legends part, and then we have a dwarf and an adventure part to do. My history of development time estimation indicates that I should not bother trying to guess. The general idea is to try to do things in smaller chunks. Pushing recipes and games out of this release and into the next one has been useful. Now I just need to get through the next two sections without doing anything too extra, and we'll be fine. The libraries/innovations were the only real sidetrack unrelated to taverns so far, and each of the giant releases have been worse on that score I think. The multispecies fort stuff is a bit nebulous timewise -- that really depends on how the code cooperates when it is told of its new responsibilities.
Quote from: Knight Otu
That interview does put a new spin on Toady's multi-tile creature experiments. I hadn't expected boats to be on the short list for the fifth spot. That's just boats, and not full vehicles, I assume?
As with other additions, we'll go down the road for a bit and get where we go. Boats are going to be coded as general moving map sections, which presumably covers giant traps and siege engines as well. As you say, boats are in many ways the easiest one to do (although a few things about them like sails are harder than, say, a generic moving wall section).
Quote from: Button
Toady, is Needlegrass intended to be Achnatherum, Aristida, Stipa, or another genus?
I don't remember. The ones that didn't get jotted down in the raws are lost to time. I don't recall having a preference either.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
Do you look at real "reclaims" for inspiration?
Not really... the reclaims were one of the first mechanics, and that was just a Moria thing at the time.
Quote from: nonfish
Will dwarven dancing be restricted to taverns? Or could extremely happy dwarves (such as those just completing an artifact or realizing a life goal) spontaneously break out into dance to celebrate?
We're starting with taverns. We have those celebration dances, but I wasn't thinking of something so spur of the moment at the time...
Quote from: Zarathustra30
Will cats and small children be in danger due to sections punctuated by kicks?
I hope not!
Quote from: WordsandChaos
Would it be possible for dancing to be weaponised/afflicted? I'm thinking along the lines of dancing mania: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_mania. I have a compelling mental image of the potential for a forgotten beast to coat a Fortress in dust that renders dwarves unable to do anything but dance until dead, or a Pied Piper character who just shows up at the fort and leads Dwarves off the map with their mesmerising music...
Secondly: How do hostiles deal with music? If a Goblin army lays siege to your fort, and your tavern area happens to be throwing an amazing gig, are attackers in ear-shot likely to drop what they're doing and just start rocking out because the bard's got sick flute skills?
It's not possible to do that yet, though I guess it is a step closer now that we have dancing, so that's something.
I think it might actually be possible that the attackers will hear the music and some of them might even be moved to tears by it... but they can still accommodate their other emotions and motivations, so it wouldn't change the outcome -- combat priorities are pretty high.
Quote from: golemgunk
How does a tavern compare to a dining hall in the mind of a dwarf? If both are available, do they prefer one over the other for their parties or needs?
Also, do songs, dancing, etc. only occur at parties, or will we see people doing them just for fun in their down time?
We're at the cusp of figuring that out -- a dining hall can be part of a tavern, or it can be owned by a specific dwarf, or be its own public place. We'll have to play around with it a bit to see how the social needs get satisfied -- I'd assume those would default to a tavern, where for a special occasion there might be choices, and some dwarves would prefer the quieter dining hall to eat if they don't have their own room.
There aren't parties in the same way as before now, so the songs etc. will be during down time. As stuff comes in to replace the old parties, we'll see them there too. At first, most of the goofing around will probably happen when enough dwarves are together in a spot and they just decide to group up.
Quote from: crapabear
The newest devlog mentions worldgen teacher-student links. Do you think the framework you'll set up for this will end up being the same framework you'll eventually use to model the transfer of other forms of knowledge? Like fighting styles, etc.?
Probably -- the necromancers, artists and scholars all do things with the same link types.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Will festivals and competitions continue to occur after initial worldgen?
If so will they be something 'adventurer bards' can take part in?
And following on from that thought, will your fortress be nominated as a potential festival location?
As a kind of capstone to the release when we are at the end of the adventure part, we were hoping to get a festival competition in there, maybe even a prize. It's up to time considerations at this point.
For fortresses, it's a number-of-critters concern, I suppose, if the festival isn't local. Depending on how the festivals I'm working on now are coded up for world-gen (there will be several different kinds), we might see some naturally happen for the fort locally, but of course there'd need to be some backing code since it's a played mode with more detail.
Quote from: blazing glory
Will there ever be more ways to capture animals?
He he he, well, you'll probably be able to psychically lasso them from your flying boat in "ever" time. I don't have a particular plan on this. I'm not sure when we'll be herding animals and things like that. I agree that it shouldn't all be traps and cages. We might have a bit more work on this once you can keep adventure livestock, but I'm not sure.
Quote from: Button
What are your thoughts on putting real-life illicit/illegal drugs in the game? Specifically, I'm expanding the products made from the real-world plants, and I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate to add hemp buds and their associated syndrome.
We already have a ton of alcohol in the vanilla game and aren't against adding the drunkenness effects from that, or deleterious long-term physical effects. I wasn't in a rush to add hemp effects when I added the plant, but I don't have a strong view on that in the game.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
Have you thought about establishing "forts" in cities? I'm thinking anything from walled communities to ghettos to Christians worshipping in the catacombs.
Yeah, it comes up a bit thinking about things -- it would be fun to have some kind of dwarven merchant colony later on. It's very similar to hill dwarves, though there has to be space made if you have building permission on the surface or sewer levels, which is a little harder since we've only just done a bit with flexibility in structures. It would be an entertaining scenario, though it wouldn't be able to load much of the city at a time.
Quote from: King_of_Baboons
Does that mean that the "skill system" that we have for jobs and combat will eventually be replaced by a knowledge based system?(a dwarf who did a certain job for his entire life is considered an expert in that area and a dwarf who has been doing a job for 2 months is considered a novice)
Will said knowledge be transferred via family relationships?(Urist's parents teach him how to be a blacksmith/Urist's wife teaches him poetry)
Will dwarves be forced to learn things by themselves?Vanod's home is being constantly harassed by criminals.He decides that he had enough of them and since there are no warriors in his village he starts to train some combat skills by himself by fighting the wild animals that roam nearby his home.
Will vampires/werebeasts and any other night creature that you are planning to add to game be able to marry other night creatures and have vamire/werebeast sons?I feel like this would be a nice alternative for generating new night creatures instead of the very rare profanations and an awesome quest to have in adv mode.
Skills won't be replaced, just complemented -- there's still a large element of practice in everything. Books should only help with that, not push it aside.
Once we add innovations that span all of the professions, they'll leave the scholarly realm and there will be other knowledge transfer methods.
Self-teaching is the default right now -- in world gen, people join the "hero" professions and pick up skills, and your dwarves eventually learn to do any job you assign them. Having harder-to-pass gates of entry would be a new thing, and the innovation system might be the way that ends up happening. At some point, we were also going to add low quality items (if the same system stays in, it would be from -1 to -5 with tasteful adjectives), and this would be what you get from your zero-skill dwarves. Rising out of that state might not be achievable through practice alone, depending on what's going on.
We had some weird power goal about curses passed through bloodlines. We'll support it at some point.
Quote from: vjmdhzgr
Are there going to be any entity tokens to customize what types of art forms civilizations get? Like if I want dwarves to only make dances that are really slow, or elves to have mostly fast music. Is speed of music even part of the styles I haven't looked at the dance or music styles since they seemed really complicated. Anyway, there's probably things one might want to customize other than speed.
I mean in the entity. I'm not asking if you can make it physically impossible for goblins to do dwarf dances.
I haven't done specific tokens that customize art forms. There are a ton of parameters, and I don't even have a basic raw format yet.
Quote from: King_of_Baboons
Will different civs be able to write their own "national anthem" or something like that?
There are commemoration/celebration type songs, and there might be military music, but I don't specifically have generic national anthems. I'm not sure when that sort of things started up.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
Will musicals have a look in?
I'm not doing anything with plays, though the dances sometimes have portions that act out stories. Plays are important, and I'm sure we'll get there sometime. I don't know anything about the development of musicals in particular.
Quote from: Edmus
Do you feel that older art types like engravings require work to bring more in line with these new art forms? Statues and engravings are entirely 'what', whereas poems and books seem to be far more 'how' based.
Yeah, all of the visual arts from sculpture to architecture to engraving (to the ones we are missing completely) don't have any broad stylistic information that we now have for poems, music and dance, and it would be good to understand something like "forms" in a similar way so that cultures can be differentiated and evolve. We had a clumsy stab at sphere-based temple architecture before, but it needs to be more coherent than that was.
Quote from: Fieari
Will adventurers be able to compose songs, write music, and choreograph dances? Form a traveling performing troupe of your own?
I'm not sure exactly how it is going to work out in terms of menus and all that, since it could get quite complicated and I'd really like to avoid that right now, but you'll be able to do some basic things. I'll know more when I dig into the adventure side of things -- just getting tavern maps and visitors up and running will be necessary first, and dwarf mode work will also determine some things first.
Quote from: Ops Fox
Is the work you intend to do on farming with tracking moisture going to be laying the groundwork for some future farming updates that you plan to do or will this probably be your only pass at farming for some time? also do you only intend to track moisture for "dirt" tiles and exclude plain stone so as to minimize computing?
Are you talking about the entry on the development page? There are more items than moisture in that section. I'm not sure when or what we'll be doing exactly.
Quote from: Gokajern
What is the effect of art on the world? In a recent devlog it is mentioned that a human created an art form for moral lessons in a gobling civ, does the civ change its moraility based on the poems? Is art right now only for entertainment? Will we ever see the pen being mightier than the sword?
Between art, religion and philosophy, I'm sure we'll see something, probably a touch this time. Certain philosophy books and certain poetry has specific variable content based on values/ethics, and entity value variables are freed up from the entity definition. The only thing we lack now are processes which cause something to be influential enough to change the base values. We have the books and troupes -- we don't have speeches or other social behavior for scholars, aside from taking students. It might be a bit much to do movements now. There's a vast periphery now of new possibilities around the recently added features that'll be taken advantage of as we go, in any case.
Quote from: LordBaal
The most recent features add new interactions to the world beyond "stab/rob/eat them" among the races. Indeed your last dev log (03/16/2015) seem to indicate certain easiness on the interaction. I'm simply curious, how a grown up, free human walks to a goblin site door and ask to become an poetry apprentice? What do it takes to survive such endearing quest?
I don't want to be perceived as judgmental or even critic of your work because certainly I haven't earned such rights, and I know DF lore is based but quite different from the standard fantasy setting, however still, don't you think it's a little out of character for goblins to mind about poetry like this?
It's always been like that since we've had populations moving around -- we haven't worried yet about goblins being accepted into human towns, and so forth. We wanted to have some mixtures instead of complete separation, and there are possible trade links everywhere, instead of a state of total irrevocable war. The valid issues will be handled to some extent as we go (including issues with the grown-up abducted dwarves and all that). Right now people can become students of nearby masters that they can reasonably have heard about.
Quote from: palu
Will art forms evolve? For example, musical forms might, over time, change, merge, or even split into two different styles?
It has to be done manually, so to save time I'm just sticking with the from-scratch generators for now. It's certainly a fair thing to do -- there's some ickiness with slight alterations and delineating when something becomes something else, since the computer doesn't handle half-merged content well.
Quote from: Kogan Loloklam
Will the next release allow religion to inflitrate a civ like poetry?
(referring to the study of poetic elf forms that returned to his civ. Human Seeker of truth finds religion in dwarvish god of hate, and starts a temple in his civ.)
Will 'schools' of (dance/poetry/song/exc.) Attempt to supress divergent styles?
Will religions have style flavors, and if so, can they be declared heretical?
Will religions try to destroy each other and purge megabeast cults and other non-civ religions?
Will favoritism lead to teachers spreading knowledge of rare forms only to their "best student"?
If the previous is true, could that lead to murder?
Mostly I am curious about the kinds of murderous motivations these new changes might add.
Edit: aaaaand updated devlog expanding this train of thought...
Will religions sometimes consider certain knowledge heretical and hold book and/or people burning to supress it?
And if so...
Will religious hit squads(or other 'suppression of knowledge' crews) show up to kidnap tavern patrons or even your own dwarves? And can you choose between giving up or hiding Uristileo possibly risking an inquisition attack and Civil War in your fort?
Nothing so violent yet... this release isn't really focused on the religious aspects. We'll get there in two stages with the myth generator and then the religious start scenario framework changes (which will presumably include quite a bit of w.g. framework work to make the start scenarios fit into the world).
We are considering some artist/scholarly antics, though.
Post by: Toady One on March 30, 2015, 07:44:55 pm
Quote from: Heph
So now maths and engineering :P will we get differential gears and banana Spaces?
Generally speaking what are the highest ideas the dorfs or any other civ can come up with?
Differential gears are certainly one of the popular "did they or didn't they" technologies -- just in my quick run through, they were hypothesized in the Greek mechanism as well as the Chinese south-pointing chariot. I don't remember finding anything definitive online. I went ahead and made them a difficult tech (and added the pointing chariot and astrarium -- abstractly for now of course).
They can get divergence of the harmonic series and invent a symbol for addition, but no banach spaces. They can build a theory of rainbows using water-filled spheres and a camera obscura, and they can calculate the height of the atmosphere based on atmospheric refraction using the law of refraction (though it tries not to get into the actual shape of the world, since that might vary). They can make oil of vitriol and spirit of niter in theory, though I don't remember if we have any vitriols at all. Historians can start to understand how cultural differences and state bias affects source reliability and think a bit about social forces. They can come up with dedicated hospitals with specialized wards, staffing, medical labs and treatment for many illnesses. All sorts of other stuff -- as far as I can tell, none of this bumps up against the soft 1400 cut off, though there was disputed material here and there, in every field, and people are welcome to comment or advocate for inclusion/removal if they have information.
Quote from: Urist Arrhenius
Given the realistic nature of DF technology/science, to what degree will chemistry, mathematical, and similar books be randomly generated?
The books are randomly generated in the process of history (and in materials), but the content placed in the books is based on the knowledge of the writer, which depends on the currently fixed set of innovations available. The set of innovations will begin to include some randomized fantasy stuff over time, and it might make reference to the raws in terms of chemistry perhaps later (and in ways related to the whole "does it affect the game?" set of concerns with reactions and all that). It isn't randomly generating math theorems or anything, though I can see something vaguely happening along those lines for certain magic forms (as with the Threetoe story involving magic).
The specific text of the books doesn't go deeply into the theorems or anything -- it would be better to have more, but we have a large list we're working with so we can't spare more than a sentence or two at this time.
Quote from: Zarathustra30
Are there plans to integrate the animal training knowledge with rest of the knowledge system before the next major release? (The one after this one)
There aren't concrete plans to integrate the knowledge system with any practical side of play yet. It's a tricky and dangerous sort of change. We hope to work it into everything, but we don't have a time scale for that.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You mentioned dwarf, elf and human scholars but not goblins. Does that mean goblins won't have scholars (except poets!) or just that you haven't decided what they'll specialise in yet?
Their civilization doesn't value scholarship, so it doesn't happen there. Goblins that are so inclined can become scholars elsewhere. Some of the random human civs don't have scholars either. The way the goblin stuff generally works, there'd be goblins that make the personal decision to think about such things even in the goblin civ, but the system doesn't support local individual choices of that kind yet.
Quote from: Broken
Does that mean there will be maps in Libraries, allowing to discover new locations?
Not yet, but we're working toward that. It has been on the dev pages in several forms forever, and now we have one more reason and avenue to get there.
Quote from: Vattic
Does this mean we are likely to see humans fighting amongst themselves now?
Are the values similar to spheres in that related ones are more likely to group together and vice versa?
I don't remember if values made their way to world generation war causes the same way as religious sphere opposition and ethics, since they were added later. Maybe not. Certain pairings should probably be included, though lots of them probably wouldn't bother people the same way as eating people.
Right now, the value randomization is all independent, and hopefully it can work that way. Some of the sphere relationships are meant to exclude things that don't make sense (especially as it concerns super/subsets), and the other are to build small groups of related spheres, but if it doesn't have to rule out certain value combinations, it would be best to keep them all. If something really doesn't make sense, we'll probably prevent it eventually.
Once values can change more during play, there might be some that move together depending on the source of the change (if the source is more general), so I'm not sure they'll remain completely independent. Some of the initial philosophically-inspired value changes that we get will probably be along a single value axis, since the written works refer to those directly.
Quote from: Man In Zero G
A thriving civilization, scholars from around the world congregating and exchanging ideas, storing the collective knowledge of the world in a vast, Alexandria-like Library.
Then the dragon/goblin army led by their demonic Overlord/fire-breathing titan/adventure mode PC shows up, slaughters the scholars and burns the library, setting back the pace of learning by centuries. Awesome.
So - books do burn, right? Will this be a thing?
Right now all the covers are still made out of stone sometimes, and the pages don't have materials (or whatever it does for that item improvement). I'm still debating taking a further detour into better materials for books (and then doing scrolls or whatever instead of books oftentimes). It might be best to wait. Books might still be destroyed in world gen when bad things happen, and in regular play when really bad things happen.
Quote from: stolide
How do you feel about the game producing actual music following the rules you generate? As in, simple one voice folk songs that you hear when you walk by a musician who's playing. I made a song following one of your formats by just picking random notes and rests within the chords generated for a form.
Would you consider making key parts of the randomly generated musical forms stored in such a way that they could be reasonably easily accessed by external programs that convert them into audible music?
I don't think I could make music following the rules I generate, especially because some of the descriptors use emotional words in a way that makes it a difficult and subjective problem.
I don't have a raw format for the forms at this point, and they aren't considered part of the xml either. It's a time-consuming conversion, so I probably won't do anything for this time. I'd consider doing something, but I'm not sure what the correct choice is at this point between raws and xml. Raws are more useful for more people, but I don't know if it has settled down yet or what's going to happen.
Quote from: Paaaad
With the advent of library's, will bookcases become a thing, or will books be stored in existing furniture?
I haven't added anything like that -- I won't get to library maps until the adventure-mode tavern changes at the end of this release process, most likely, and we haven't decided to what extent libraries will be in fort mode yet.
Quote from: Kogan Loloklam
How do you plan to display adventures approaching music?
Like the sound behind a wall? We have those exclamation points for speech and walking, and we can probably use the musical notes provided by the ASCII for music. Might use musical notes for visible people as well, but we'll see once I get to the dwarf mode musical activities (which aren't too far away now).
Quote from: CLA
Will we get these scholars in the fortress? (like the old philosopher)
Do you have any plans to have them create books while in player fortresses? Will we be able to create libraries ourselves (like a hospital or temple zone or whatever) and attract scholars?
Quote from: devlog
The outlines are ready for [...] geographers [...]
Does this include cartography? And by extension, will that mean the world map you see in adventure mode will be influenced by your civs cartographic/geographic knowledge? Will we be able to find physical maps?
In general, will the book framework be used for anything else than actual books? I'm thinking of pamphlets, proclamations, wanted posters, and as mentioned, maps.
If we get the libraries into fort mode, which will probably happen to a small extent, we'll have fort mode scholars and books in a very basic capacity. And yeah, the idea was that they'd be analogous to taverns and temples as meta-multi-zone location thingies that can attract outsiders.
The geography innovations include several related to cartography, but as with everything else we aren't tying it into the actual game yet. But yeah, that's the idea. We have several dev items on maps and we'd have you interact with them once they go in.
The "written content" framework functions beyond books, and presumably we'll use it for everything. It now works for poems, music and choreographies now whether they are in a book or not, and any items that eventually spring up in a scroll sort of form should be able to use it.
Quote from: flabort
Since necros are not the only ones making books now, will we see existing professions creating books to pass down knowledge? (Fisherdwarfs giving casting techniques or guides to what fish are best when, animal trainers cataloging things that they tamed, miners keeping diaries, craftsdwarves writing about the proper usage of tools, etc)
Although the reason I didn't see it might be because it's venturing into suggestion territory, we do know that the new artists are getting books, so it's more like who else will be getting book-writing functionality?
I haven't added other authors than the ones mentioned at this point.
Quote from: Ribs
How will our new visitors react to having the fortress closed and being unable to leave, especially during a siege? Will they freak out and eventually go crazy like merchants currently do, or will they react more reasonably (either by accepting that there's a good reason for being stuck there or perhaps even demanding to be let out if there's no good reason for the fortress' entrance to be blocked)?
The merchant code is archaic, so I doubt the new visitors'll have the same issues. I'm not sure what'll happen at this point, though, if anything. They don't really have decent recourse if they don't break things, but I suppose they could just annoy people if they are impatient.
Quote from: Heph
Will there be partial and unfinished works?
Also now with books more commonplace will the Bookkeeper actualy keep book?
It isn't like that yet, though since we have that part of world gen working in weeks, it should be possible. Once people write after world gen, it'll be a more natural result (since it surely wouldn't be a fast job), though it would need to be added explicitly as with anything.
The bookkeeper does not yet keep a book.
Quote from: Idranel
Have you heard about weighted A* search which introduces a constant factor w (with w > 1) to A*'s admissible heuristic to improve execution time by trading off the optimality of the results to be no worse than w times the optimal solution ?
Edit for clarification: My intention is to get a quick yes/no-like answer before I'll attempt to write a potentially redundant, proper, lengthy and formal suggestion post about ?-admissible search algorithms that are based on weighted A*.
Yeah, I've heard about it. Initial complications are that (if I remember, been a while) we might blow out some variables if we multiple up beyond the traffic weights we're already using, and imperfect paths are kind of bad news for the appearance of reality, which leads to all sorts of trouble (false bug reports, etc).
Quote from: Vattic
Do you have plans for gorlaks, or other non civilised creatures making poems, songs, dances, and similar?
We're hoping to get our first animal person etc. "heroes" in for the visitor part this time. Once they exist as historical figures... various things can happen. I'm not going fully into entity definitions for the side races this time -- and regardless there's the interesting question of the arts for intelligent solitary/mega critters that won't have entities (except in weird circumstances). Not sure what'll happen and no specific plans.
Quote from: Galena
Will dwarves read books while on break? And if they read books, will they be able to gain skill from them?
It's quite possible, assuming we get our dwarven libraries up to the point that they have books in them, which seems like a first step. We don't have skill books at this point, so the most they'd be able to do is learn the pythagorean theorem or something.
Quote from: Delioth
Toady- have you thought about tweaking with crossbows/ranged weapons having fixed ranges? i.e. the idea of firing a crossbow from a 3z high tower to get extra range?
Part of the problem is the visual range in general -- we just don't have a lot of room to work with, certainly not anything approaching the actual range of these weapons. I haven't come up with a solution or thought about it very hard though. It would be appropriate to do something, and the tower example would happen naturally if we get parabolas up for everything (which would get us to the range problem again though, so it doesn't actually work).
Quote from: KillerClowns
where will knowledge of adamantine working come from?
Where it'll stand after the myth generation and after the tech stuff gets worked into actual jobs is anybody's guess. In general, both supernaturally-inspired knowledge and a slow slog of experimentation are on the table. We're hoping to get some of our generated fantasy stuff innovation-tree'd up in a way that'll allow stuff like "mage colleges" (or whatever millions of other types can be concocted, not necessarily the typical "scholarly" ones) with some heft and consequences.
Quote
Quote from: FieariWill the new knowledge "tech forest" be accessible in the RAWs?
If I think up a new fantasy philosophy, can I have the philosophers in game discover it? Or when the history department at my local IRL university thinks up a new historiography method, do we have to wait for it to be hard coded in or can we just add it to the RAWs ourselves?
For that matter, what about ideas that aren't just ambiguously correct, but are clearly wrong? People wrote books and chased down clearly false ideas plenty of times in history. It's a part of science too, to propose an idea that might not work out.Quote from: Urist McGoombaBrotherAre the innovations moddable? E.g. Is it possible to add some more innovations or even entire innovation chains via modding or is everything hardcoded? With innovation chain I mean let's say for woodcutting first investigate single blade axe, than double blade axe, than double blade axe with extra sharp blades, etc.
When this is moddable and one day ingame-functionality is added, will we be able to add custom effects to those innovations? e.g. double blade axe => 10 per cent faster chopping than with standard axe, double blade axe with extra sharp blades => 20 % faster chopping than standard axe, etc.
Also when moddable, will we be able to add tech trees for completely random studies e.g. plump helmet science or tree hugging techniques for elves? Just for personal amusement and to be able to find books or engravings about this or that.
Nope, not yet. I'm still not sure how to interact with a few things -- certain things like "biography" are linked to the ability to write that kind of book, which is going to require a syntax like any of the job connections we do later, and trickier problems like how the ability of philosophers to write on individual happiness or government allows them to inject their values into specific books about the subject (with lots of associated text branching on values). It's also kind of like spheres -- there's a fundamentalness to a few of the innovations that resists rawification (since it basically amounts to the open-source question). We'll probably figure it out, one way or the other, anyway. Presumably the technological advances will matter in some way -- probably ties to whatever item raws eventually say about things like agricultural purpose/efficiency/etc., or how a non-item innovation itself merges with however farming output works. It'll be complicated and piecemeal, I imagine, since there's a great variety to be handled.
Doing incorrect information is hard when we don't even have "correct" information done. We'll get to specific cases eventually, but the myriad wrong paths people can take are harder to do. It'll be part of the myth stuff as each society looks at the generated story from its perspective, but maybe not much on the first pass.
Quote from: Cobbler89
So will people still write books about other people's books about other people's books about mugs?
I haven't changed anything about that, though the scholars have generally been writing about their research instead of commenting. The necromancers get bored.
Quote from: Urist_McDagger
Does that mean that, eventually, we will have hunters that have read books about specific critters and know how they usually act in a state of terror? I.e. that we will have hunters that do not run up next to an elephant before it has dealt a lethal blow?
If so; will this be expanded upon to enable hunters/players to aim for lethal points in sentient creatures/critters, if they've read a book about the biology of, say, humans?
It all depends on the direction things go. We have books about various behaviors of various animals, but since few of those behaviors are actually in the raws yet, it doesn't really matter until the game itself is more interesting, and then there'd be the additional step.
Quote from: Zavvnao
With the 1400 cut-off date, could we expect world-gen ruins that hint at more advanced things you can't be build by any of the civs?
Entire civilizations don't die off often enough for this to happen much yet, but it's theoretically possible to have a ruined town with a ruined library now that has books describing things well beyond what is known by anybody living. As the innovations get linked to actual in-game objects, the living and dead civs will differentiate more.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
How will people discover new knowledge at the beginning of time? Will worldgen just create wisemen who then write books or pass on teachings through teacher/apprentice relationships? Or will gods n' demons grant the knowledge?
The initial scholars discover the simple innovations (those without prereqs) by spending time thinking during their turns. When the myth stuff goes in, all the prometheus gift/demon "gift"/etc.etc.etc. stuff will start to come in as well. As we expand the innovations over to the game's professions, scholars won't control the whole mundane process I expect, and we'll have technologies spring up in regular communities outside of the library setting, and spread in ways aside from books.
Quote from: Ribs
Will scribes make copies of important books to distribute them, possibly to other libraries across the world?
Yeah, the libraries currently obtain copies of books that reside in other libraries over time with some respect for distance, but we don't have scribes separated out as a person you can find yet.
Quote from: Zarathustra30
Is some knowledge protected? Will dwarves prevent the spread of metalworking techniques outside of their civilization?
We don't have anything like that yet. It'll be more important when they matter and hopefully we'll remember at that time before the wrong book copy gets sent out to a human library.
Quote from: LordBaal
Everyone will be capable of reading any book? I mean, different languages won't affect reading/speaking (just yet)?
We don't have different languages for the books yet. I'm not sure when I'll get into that. Attaching a translation token to the written content would be simple enough, but we'd also need the knowledge of languages inside the people, and it would still make playing quite annoying without various mitigation (especially if you can't read the various slabs/books that actually do stuff when you triumphantly obtain them). It is something we want to do though -- once you can take the slab etc. to a translator etc. it would be fun again (and open up more possibilities for how it all turns out).
Quote from: Robsoie
That led me to wondering then if accidentally or by bug or by facetious adventurer bringing it, a necromancer book end into the fortress library, will that fort be filled by lots of new necromancers in no time?
It depends on how books are understood to belong to a library or which books are understood as being the ones to read -- the game won't see things that aren't properly transferred (although in the fort they might not care as long as the zone is right -- haven't gotten there yet, assuming we do much with libraries there this time). The way artifacts are stored on sites, it might recognize original books brought to a library, but it would have to work harder to understood copies you've pilfered from one library to another, since those don't have "artifact" status and the library tracks its copies separately by necessity.
Quote from: Mephansteras
Will the new system allow for things like training medical dwarves? Will it be possible to have reactions that look for a book of a particular topic/type?
Eventually, it'll all be linked up, but I haven't rawified innovations yet, not even with a sphere-style tag, until we're ready to risk blocking off chunks of dwarf mode to tech-starved dwarf civs, which would be frustrating until that's mitigated in many ways.
Quote from: Vattic
Will there be harder books that require greater reading skill than others?
I haven't sorted that out -- it isn't just the reading skill, but the scholarly/art skills/knowledge as well. It seems like some books should require not only prerequisite skills but also prerequisite knowledge to understand at all, whereas others might actually implicitly provide prerequisite knowledge as well as the topic knowledge while imparting some skill as well, depending on the subject, length of study, etc.
It's vaguely related to the overall adoption of an innovation -- at some point, losing books/scholars shouldn't matter if everybody in the civ picks up a concept from an early age or there are representative artifacts everywhere, but that only applies to some things that lend themselves to cultural absorption/reproduction (some of the more esoteric innovations never get that way, even after thousands of years, or they occupying a middle ground where they'd be more obvious but not without work).
Quote
Quote from: Urist ArrheniusIn adv mode will the player be able to become a student of a scholar, and later become a teacher themselves? Will adv players be able to create books?Quote from: Novel ScoopsCan the game be modded so scholars genuinely "know" what they're supposed too and actually teach the player? i.e, rip from various ancient textbooks and treatises which the player can then be taught and tested on?
I'm not sure we'll be doing this one for this release -- the performance stuff is a little easier to make fun, where making the teacher-student process for scholars work seems like it would take a lot of writing and conversation and passage of time, and having any actual mechanics there would require a lot more resolution in the knowledge lists, perhaps. It's kind of like becoming the bookkeeper of a fortress -- it's possible to work out a game from there and make it fun, and it should be an option in the spirit of doing everything, but it doesn't feel like the path of least resistance, especially with what's on the table now. That said, playing things like wizard's apprentices is very standard fantasy, and the way things are going, that's all going to be part of the same system (in the more 'understandable' generated magics, anyway), so the circles might wrap around in weird ways.
Quote
Quote from: SimRobert2001How will the game actually differ between short and long world gen? What will the technological differences be?Quote from: BafflerWill research be conducted in our own fortresses? If that research is fruitful, will it spread out of the fort in some way, say travelling scholars visiting the library as well as the tavern?
As I mentioned in one of those logs, the technologies won't yet affect the playable aspects of the game, and I haven't broken down the hands-on labors into their innovations for the most part. Even where I have, it doesn't matter. So the practical differences are very small, and it doesn't affect dwarf buildings or jobs. As we figure out how to manage larger changes, there'll be differences, but it's hard to say how that's all going to interact with other changes, especially where the supernatural is involved. We'll probably have a few options as well, if the changes become intrusive.
Assuming we do libraries in fort mode this time, they'd get books as a first step very likely. At that point, the game would understand what's there, and any scholars moving around would be able to read and use them as the calendar advances, and presumably the copying procedure would also continue -- every w.g. process needs to be continued manually into post w.g., but I'm trying to keep that up to date between modes.
Quote from: Urist McGoombaBrother
Just, for the big picture, is the innovation system currently implemented as major feature of the adventure mode only? Or is this also a major topic for fortress mode?
Calling it a major feature for either mode would be a stretch. This was just for wholesome and diverse libraries this time, and we'll go from there.
Post by: Sorg on March 30, 2015, 08:22:00 pm
Thanks, Toady!
Post by: Urist Arrhenius on March 30, 2015, 08:37:56 pm
The specific text of the books doesn't go deeply into the theorems or anything -- it would be better to have more, but we have a large list we're working with so we can't spare more than a sentence or two at this time.If I understand you correctly, and this is mostly an issue of not having enough time to type out detailed descriptions, could this sort of thing be outsourced to your loving public? It wouldn't be at all hard for the community to flesh out scientific descriptions, especially of genuine scientific advancements.
Post by: Max™ on March 31, 2015, 12:29:52 am
Having the option to start as a "sprung from the earth" or "historical figure"... I don't even know where to begin, as it stands there are several ways you can go about achieving something similar with your own dorfs (with dfhack you can mode set switch to arena mode from fort mode, assume control of someone, then mode set to adventurer mode and dfusion change adventurer to make them save properly and such) or with folks you encounter as an adventurer (dfusion change adventurer will swap control) and it is fun having the additional interactions and such, but being able to start up and have a background with family and friends and such? *squee*
I see what you mean about the fort mode obstacles getting trivialized if you can just swap to someone and go through abusing practiced adventurer mode strategies (have you seen the whole Kisat Dur thing Broseph Stalin started codifying/collecting?) to turn away a siege before swapping back... though I am curious now what happens if I ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of a dorf mid-siege.
Now a question: Is the "greatly respected for heroic acts" line in legends mode a "higher rank" than "legendary hero", and is there a similar sort like "greatly feared as a killer" beyond even "legendary killer" possible? I ask because simply returning kids to their family will have them call you a legendary hero, and I'm pretty sure after a handful of kids returned to the same civ you show up as "greatly respected" in legends.
I love saving kids, the cuteness of them running up to their parents with the whole "mother, is it you?" dialogue, the dorflet embraces mayor, all of it, and the way people actually respond after a bit of time has passed is fantastic. I've had people in neighboring hillocks and such start to recognize me and be amazed to meet me after having rescued a horde of munchkins, which is super satisfying. Honestly didn't know this wasn't a feature before, as I started around 40.06~ and only started adventuring seriously after around 40.14 I think, but it's great having that extra little interaction with the world, as well as a purely positive method of gaining fame.
Oh man, I might get to see them start dancing or throwing a party to celebrate the reunion at some point, hah, that'll be fun. Now to figure out how to resolve the "my mother lives in Oilfountain" and "my father lives in Basementchannels" situations better than using dfusion to make them follow me to the relevant spot, though I suppose just being able to summarize how you reunited them with soandso in soandso a certaintime ago would work.
Post by: DG on March 31, 2015, 01:34:58 am
Post by: jefam99 on March 31, 2015, 03:02:20 am
Post by: Vattic on March 31, 2015, 03:15:02 am
Post by: endlessblaze on March 31, 2015, 07:58:13 am
Like say, if a human moves into the fort with a scourge can we learn to make scourges?
Post by: Dirst on March 31, 2015, 10:11:15 am
How do you envision innovations affecting gameplay, and will it be used as an excuse to move some things out into the raws? I'm imaging several substitute reactions like INEFFICIENT_UNRELIABLE_STEELMAKING, INEFFICIENT_RELIABLE_STEELMAKING and EFFICIENT_RELIABLE_STEELMAKING, but there are others that don't map so well into current raws like using math innovations to unlock siege engines.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 31, 2015, 10:56:16 am
Post by: Elagn on March 31, 2015, 11:02:12 am
Post by: Mephansteras on March 31, 2015, 11:12:17 am
Post by: Untelligent on March 31, 2015, 01:07:18 pm
Post by: Urist McGoombaBrother on March 31, 2015, 01:08:41 pm
I was curious, with the new groups like bands and similar how big of a problem will loyalty cascades be? If my fortress is invaded by someone who is in a band with one of my dwarves, will i have to deal with my dwarf once i have killed off the invaders?
When someone, let's say an elf, is in a band of your dwarves, how is this elf able to invade your fort? Isn't he supposed to be already in your tavern and play all day long? But I guess interesting will be to see, how this said elf is reacting, when his whole family is besieging you, because you tried to sell them some wooden chairs. Will he stay loyal to his band and attack his own family or the opposite way round? Or does that elf try to stay neutral and doesn't do anything at all?
Post by: Chaoseed on March 31, 2015, 04:28:02 pm
I'm not sure how to evaluate the quality of the results -- say, after some stuff happens and we have some freshly created dwarves, the celestial ibis mates with the sun and lays an egg which contains the progenitors of a giant-sized race who all come to reside in their lost city and forge the device which weaves the destiny of the dwarves and the dwarves rebel and break the device and that's why dwarves grow old and die now, or whatever.
This is awesome.
...this leads to questions about whether you'd be able to play in an actual Age of Myth where dwarves don't yet age and the sun doesn't exist, or something.
This is super awesome.
I think it might actually be possible that the attackers will hear the music and some of them might even be moved to tears by it... but they can still accommodate their other emotions and motivations, so it wouldn't change the outcome -- combat priorities are pretty high.
Sure, that's what the Zentraedi thought...;)
Thanks for all the cool details!
Post by: Cobbler89 on March 31, 2015, 05:55:02 pm
We've been fudging books for a while now, and I'm not sure if that's going to change yet. Depending on how you think of the printing press, it's either before or after the 1400 cutoff it seems, so we could toy around with that later. Right now, everything is hand-copied in world generation in the libraries.
Right now all the covers are still made out of stone sometimes, and the pages don't have materials (or whatever it does for that item improvement). I'm still debating taking a further detour into better materials for books (and then doing scrolls or whatever instead of books oftentimes). It might be best to wait. Books might still be destroyed in world gen when bad things happen, and in regular play when really bad things happen.Might the oldest and/or earthiest cultures in the game use clay tablets? Wax tablets? Stone tablets?
(Not sure whether to color that or consider it too suggestiony...)
"This drink is good, I want another."Quote from: FarmerbobTwo tavern and mug related questions:
First, have you considered adding 'breaking mugs' as a celebratory tavern activity? The breaking of the mugs would generate happiness in the craftsdwarf who made the mug, and the breaker of the mug, with the happiness generated being dependent on the craftdwarfship of the mugs? Dwarves would always collect the best mugs they could from the stockpiles.
Second, have you considered allowing artifact mugs and musical instruments to be added to taverns as part of the décor, increasing the happiness of dwarves that see them in much the same way as levers can be admired? Perhaps do the same with figurines, jewelry, and scepters in temples?
I haven't considered it at all -- right now a broken masterpiece mug would make the craftsdwarf upset, unless this is an idiom I'm not familiar with.
So, if this is anything like how "creatures can react to signs of death now" translated to "a stray tooth will paralyze an entire army with fear", it's entirely possible that the goblin siegers will leave a river of tears as they approach any fortress with taverns audible from outside, and players will trap their most annoying dwarves in "taverns" scattered across the surface to make ambushers evident by their tear-rivers?Quote from: WordsandChaosWould it be possible for dancing to be weaponised/afflicted? I'm thinking along the lines of dancing mania: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_mania. I have a compelling mental image of the potential for a forgotten beast to coat a Fortress in dust that renders dwarves unable to do anything but dance until dead, or a Pied Piper character who just shows up at the fort and leads Dwarves off the map with their mesmerising music...
Secondly: How do hostiles deal with music? If a Goblin army lays siege to your fort, and your tavern area happens to be throwing an amazing gig, are attackers in ear-shot likely to drop what they're doing and just start rocking out because the bard's got sick flute skills?
It's not possible to do that yet, though I guess it is a step closer now that we have dancing, so that's something.
I think it might actually be possible that the attackers will hear the music and some of them might even be moved to tears by it... but they can still accommodate their other emotions and motivations, so it wouldn't change the outcome -- combat priorities are pretty high.
It isn't randomly generating math theorems or anything, though I can see something vaguely happening along those lines for certain magic forms (as with the Threetoe story involving magic).Cross product of two 3D vectors, anyone?
Quote from: BrokenDoes that mean there will be maps in Libraries, allowing to discover new locations?Not yet, but we're working toward that. It has been on the dev pages in several forms forever, and now we have one more reason and avenue to get there.
This compass has a new feature!Quote from: CLAWill we get these scholars in the fortress? (like the old philosopher)
Do you have any plans to have them create books while in player fortresses? Will we be able to create libraries ourselves (like a hospital or temple zone or whatever) and attract scholars?
Quote from: devlog
The outlines are ready for [...] geographers [...]
Does this include cartography? And by extension, will that mean the world map you see in adventure mode will be influenced by your civs cartographic/geographic knowledge? Will we be able to find physical maps?
In general, will the book framework be used for anything else than actual books? I'm thinking of pamphlets, proclamations, wanted posters, and as mentioned, maps.
If we get the libraries into fort mode, which will probably happen to a small extent, we'll have fort mode scholars and books in a very basic capacity. And yeah, the idea was that they'd be analogous to taverns and temples as meta-multi-zone location thingies that can attract outsiders.
The geography innovations include several related to cartography, but as with everything else we aren't tying it into the actual game yet. But yeah, that's the idea. We have several dev items on maps and we'd have you interact with them once they go in.
In all seriousness... Once we have maps, I suppose it will be possible for them to get out of date as the lay of the land changes?
Ah, I get it, scholars are researchers and necromancers are academics. ;^)Quote from: Cobbler89So will people still write books about other people's books about other people's books about mugs?
I haven't changed anything about that, though the scholars have generally been writing about their research instead of commenting. The necromancers get bored.
Post by: Neonivek on April 01, 2015, 06:09:28 am
Post by: Verdant_Squire on April 01, 2015, 09:59:32 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on April 01, 2015, 10:01:42 am
Post by: sewvi on April 01, 2015, 11:01:12 am
Post by: Paaaad on April 01, 2015, 03:50:07 pm
Snip.
specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Post by: sewvi on April 01, 2015, 03:51:40 pm
Post by: Inarius on April 01, 2015, 05:00:48 pm
The use of map can change a lot of thing, mostly (perhaps for the first time in a video game ?) the fact that we can have a distorted vision of the world. It will force the player to stay within the boundaries of the "known" world make a better game. The player could have a stronger impression of being a part of a culture and a land if it is the only one he knows. The "unknown land" could actually mean something.
However, I think I have read somewhere that Toady said that, for now, it won't actually be real maps.
So you will probably have to wait a long time before your question becomes topical.
Remember : the implementation of all of this is just accidental, the real things were poetry, dancing, music, and the way they are learnt.
Libraries, knowledges and maps are just here by chance :)
Post by: dmatter on April 02, 2015, 06:42:54 am
While I'm on this sort of topic, the printing press was invented in China around (according to Wikipedia) 1041 to 1048 and seems to have been perfected in Korea. So, we could have printing presses in DF without it violating the soft 1400s issue.
Anywho, on to my !!!questions!!! (some of which might be answered):
1) Do you plan on having the number of philosophers/schools of thought vary depending on societal phenomena? IE, can we expect to see things like an influx of philosophers during prolonged periods of war, sort of like the Axial age?
2) Someone mentioned Alexandria earlier. Which made me think of an article I read that talked about how most of Alexandria's knowledge was lost before it was burnt down. As such, are we going to eventually see certain historical figures implementing policies that erode the knowledge base? IE, such as cutting funding to maintaining libraries (and their books) and possibly even cutting academics. I'd also ask about (ideological) cronyism but that is probably so far down the road it isn't even worth asking about at this point.
Additionally, how are books going to be impacted by wear in fort mode? Is there going to be to a book maintenance labor, or, le gasp, a new sort of noble dealing exclusively with books and book maintenance?
3) There was also mention of forts within cities in the last set of questions, which makes me wonder will we (eventually) see boulevard sort of phenomena? IE, civ leaders demanding that large sections of walls be torn down and remain so for some cities/forts within cities? Or that a certain tile path always remain open to the 'heart' of a fort in fortress mode?
Post by: tahu16 on April 03, 2015, 08:37:16 am
1) Will you lower the experience gaining of the current "Find out yourself" method of training for the balance? Will it take more time to train a legendary X without books in the future?
2)Are you planning to introduce other training helping methods, like the master-pretence relationship?
3)What are your plans about diseases?
Post by: BFEL on April 03, 2015, 12:37:15 pm
will we (eventually) see boulevard sort of phenomena? IE, civ leaders demanding that large sections of walls be torn down and remain so for some cities/forts within cities? Or that a certain tile path always remain open to the 'heart' of a fort in fortress mode?In a more generalized sense relating to this do you plan to have characters that can force or otherwise threaten the player to do things, such as the above example? If so, what is the extent of it? We already have the "export the wrong thing/don't meet a mandate and a random dwarf dies" consequence, would we see similar consequences for missing a mandated road or such?
Post by: DarkwingUK on April 03, 2015, 04:05:45 pm
Thanks for all of the exciting updates! I saw that you are working on history books, and I was wondering whether the books you are talking about are just book titles like "This is a comparative biography of those three mayors, in such and such a style," or whether there will be books that record some of the significant events or citizens of our fortress that took place during fortress mode. I always loved the little stories that you get when you engrave a slab, but sometimes you have a dwarf that you really followed closely and when they die you would love to have some kind of recording of who they were and what they did in a more comprehensive way. As it stands, once they die you can't read about their preferences and friends and relationships while still in Fortress Mode as far as I can tell, so they become slightly lost. Also it would be amazing to have a little access to some of that history that we get in legends mode, but written from a citizen's point of view while still in fortress mode!
Thanks!!
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 04, 2015, 11:28:53 am
The reason I'm so interested in this is because it'd make fortress life significantly more interesting, and it is also quite an important thing when recreating historical cities in general.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on April 04, 2015, 12:02:05 pm
Being a vampire in a wandering troupe would be a sweet deal i assume, the cattle comes on its own and as long you don't overdo it noone will notice that you guzzle a dwarf or two after the festivities.
Post by: WordsandChaos on April 05, 2015, 03:17:23 am
Post by: Max™ on April 05, 2015, 06:41:53 am
"Ok, let's hurl something... anyone up for some dorf tossing?"
*looks around at a couple folks wincing and rubbing missing limbs from the last time that was tried*
"Right, bad idea... anyone got some hammers or spears? No? Fine, what's that you got there, Bard? Oh, it's an heirloom... fine, just give us the metal parts on the front there."
*whoom, whoom, whoom, ptwang*
Post by: Dirst on April 05, 2015, 07:38:55 am
Post by: Zavvnao on April 05, 2015, 11:23:42 am
I had meant that there could be pre-worldgen ruins, (like how there are caves or temples or labrynths and such that re pre-worldgen) that have "modern" things in the sense of how they existed to ancient people in the form of novelties since slaves where easier at that time than steam power.
Plus, you said you wanted a generic fantasy world generator, and hints of an ancient precursor race is very cliche in fantasy.
Post by: unchow on April 05, 2015, 02:44:56 pm
I think this would tie in nicely to the "do dwarfs read in their downtime" question, even if all dwarfs remained perfectly literate.This might not make as much sense for "knowledge" books, since people don't typically pick up "Siege engineering for dummies" in their spare time, but it might be a middle-ground between a common "one dwarf reading one book alone" occurrence and a relatively rare "giant festival" event. Similar to small groups of dwarfs dancing in their free time outside of the festival events?
Also, I know that language isn't really an explicit thing right now, and you mentioned getting books translated. Would you ever consider having different languages influence each other and change? Historically, languages like English have been notorious for stealing words from neighbors, and also developing into a massive number of different local dialects (much in the way cultural values flow between different populations). Is this a topic you would ever want to approach?
Post by: Neonivek on April 06, 2015, 07:54:13 pm
So I am going to make an assumption that later on there will be events, disasters, curses, creatures, what have you that will just flat out wipe civilizations off the face of the map where only their ruins still exist.
Because these happen in game, do you plan to make the players immune to such events, give them a fighting change, forewarn them that making a fortress in such a situation would be bad, or just allow them to fall to the civ wide death curse, or do you have something else in mind? Or is there just never going to be these sort of cataclysmic events?
ugh double questions
Will you ever do something with the population so it feels less like the population limit is hit within the first 100 years and the world just constantly reincarnates the same 20,000 souls over and over again? Or is that just an ingrained issue?
I would love to do a third question... >_< but I'll wait.
Post by: Putnam on April 06, 2015, 08:32:53 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on April 07, 2015, 12:27:23 pm
Post by: LordBaal on April 07, 2015, 01:48:38 pm
Post by: Neonivek on April 07, 2015, 02:10:26 pm
It was probably something about what would need to fall into place in order for worlds to become significantly larger so that we aren't talking about countries or continents the size of Europe... but rather world spanning games.
Assuming there are plans for that ever to be possible
Post by: Button on April 07, 2015, 03:11:54 pm
Ok here is something
So I am going to make an assumption that later on there will be events, disasters, curses, creatures, what have you that will just flat out wipe civilizations off the face of the map where only their ruins still exist.
These already happen, if you gen your worlds right.
"Eighty-eight rocs attack!"
Post by: Neonivek on April 07, 2015, 11:53:35 pm
But I don't think of that as intended behavior.
Post by: Dirst on April 08, 2015, 06:29:32 am
Yeah you can flood your world with so many monsters that it can be impossible for a population to grow...Duplicated raws hilarity is not intended behavior, but making the world unlivable by having more dragons than dwarves is how you set up a nice little spot for adventure mode :)
But I don't think of that as intended behavior.
Post by: utunnels on April 08, 2015, 08:38:44 pm
Major/game breaking bugs:
- Stranded caravans and other foreign units.
- Underground stockpiles turn the tiles into above ground.
- Previous fortress members turn hostile after reclaiming but don't attack.
Other problems:
- Nobles being re-appointed.
- Items scattered around, containers toppled, etc
- Rooms have to be re-assigned.
- Underwater tiles submerged even if there're walls blocing the water.
Post by: MrWiggles on April 08, 2015, 09:05:39 pm
Is there any recent plan to fix reclaim and unretire?ToadyOne plans for it to remain broken for the rest of time.
Major/game breaking bugs:
- Stranded caravans and other foreign units.
- Underground stockpiles turn the tiles into above ground.
- Previous fortress members turn hostile after reclaiming but don't attack.
Other problems:
- Nobles being re-appointed.
- Items scattered around, containers toppled, etc
- Rooms have to be re-assigned.
- Underwater tiles submerged even if there're walls blocing the water.
As for a more serious answer. Then yea. Probably Whenever Reclaiming and Unretiring comes up again. And of what ToadyOne has spoken about the nearer future development, its probably when ToadyOne and ThreeToes get to starting scenarios.
Post by: Neonivek on April 09, 2015, 06:36:34 am
I think I actually asked the "Bigger worlds" question before...
In fact I believe I asked it twice before
This means this is the THIRD time I have asked Toady about bigger worlds... But I don't remember if I did EXACTLY.
And you know what? Give me a year and I am sure I'll ask Toady again. This is saaaaaad!
Post by: Scoops Novel on April 09, 2015, 09:37:02 am
Post by: Sizik on April 09, 2015, 11:16:46 am
I actually completely forgot what my question was...
It was probably something about what would need to fall into place in order for worlds to become significantly larger so that we aren't talking about countries or continents the size of Europe... but rather world spanning games.
Assuming there are plans for that ever to be possible
Well, one factor is increased computing speed and memory size. Possibly 64-bit and/or parallelization to make it run faster.
Post by: DeusTempestas on April 09, 2015, 06:12:59 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on April 09, 2015, 06:57:27 pm
ToadyOne talked about parallelization, and doesn't belive it'll off much to DF. Though that topic been discussed to death elsewhere. Generally ends with folks saying that because DF wasn't made with parallelization from the start, that it'd be a similar project to just restarting DF from nearly scratch.I actually completely forgot what my question was...
It was probably something about what would need to fall into place in order for worlds to become significantly larger so that we aren't talking about countries or continents the size of Europe... but rather world spanning games.
Assuming there are plans for that ever to be possible
Well, one factor is increased computing speed and memory size. Possibly 64-bit and/or parallelization to make it run faster.
Post by: Cobbler89 on April 09, 2015, 08:30:14 pm
Has the difference between multi-threading/concurrency and parallelization been discussed? From what I've seen, we've all talked to death the fact that Dwarf Fortress wasn't designed for multi-threading... But, I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't know the difference between parallelization and concurrency until (recently) I saw this: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/CPP/C-PP-Con-2014/Overview-of-Parallel-Programming-in-CPP And if I understand correct from that talk, performing the same calculation (e.g. pathfinding, temperature updates, maybe AI choices) on massive sets of data at once (e.g. every creature on the map, every object and tile on the map) simply isn't suitable for multi-threading (concurrency) regardless of program design, but is very much suited for parallelization -- basically, as long as within the same type of calculation no two objects depend on the results of the other's current calculation of the same type, only the state from the previous tick, and as long as it isn't more if-else branching than actual calculating, then it might be as simple as flagging the loops in question to compile to code that tells the processor, in effect, "See how we're performing the same calculation on all the entries in this list? Feel free to run as many of them at the same time as you can," and then processors have a lot of different non-thready ways to achieve that. (Of course, it's possible that as time goes on compilers will get good at spotting those situations without any help from the programmer and that sort of code will end up happening automatically, but I imagine if, say, it would work except for one thing that makes it not valid/safe/whatever, explicitly asking for it would prompt the compiler to tell you what you need to correct in order for it to happen.) Just my thoughts after seeing that talk, anyway; I'm sure Toady will figure out what will work best at some point in looking at optimizations.ToadyOne talked about parallelization, and doesn't belive it'll off much to DF. Though that topic been discussed to death elsewhere. Generally ends with folks saying that because DF wasn't made with parallelization from the start, that it'd be a similar project to just restarting DF from nearly scratch.I actually completely forgot what my question was...
It was probably something about what would need to fall into place in order for worlds to become significantly larger so that we aren't talking about countries or continents the size of Europe... but rather world spanning games.
Assuming there are plans for that ever to be possible
Well, one factor is increased computing speed and memory size. Possibly 64-bit and/or parallelization to make it run faster.
Post by: Scoops Novel on April 10, 2015, 04:25:17 am
A foot race... Will there be other sports? Dwarfs vs Goblins football?
A foot race... Will there be other sports? Dwarfs vs Goblins football?
FTFY
Post by: Robsoie on April 10, 2015, 04:59:30 am
Post by: Button on April 10, 2015, 09:32:13 am
Post by: Chymor on April 12, 2015, 02:15:01 am
Or the theory of Humorism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism) which provides an explanation for how herbs can help healing, but also recommends Bloodletting as a cure to disease?
Adding wrong theories that block/slow down progress in certain fields while they are dominant would provide a lot of fun interaction (people disproving other peoples work and other conflicts) and a nice way to avoid everyone learning everything too fast.
Post by: Knight Otu on April 12, 2015, 11:30:38 am
A foot race... Will there be other sports? Dwarfs vs Goblins football?
A foot race... Will there be other sports? Dwarfs vs Goblins football?
FTFY
From the dev log:
Quote
The game looks at the values and ethics of the civilization and the overall purpose of the occasion to come up with the schedule of events -- performances, competitions (from art to various races to wrestling to etc. etc.), processions and ceremonies, with various little details.Do note that much of that will likely be legends mode only for the time being.
The since the knowledge system appears to be "theory" based, what about wrong theories?
This is from the last set of answers:
QuoteQuote from: FieariWill the new knowledge "tech forest" be accessible in the RAWs?
If I think up a new fantasy philosophy, can I have the philosophers in game discover it? Or when the history department at my local IRL university thinks up a new historiography method, do we have to wait for it to be hard coded in or can we just add it to the RAWs ourselves?
For that matter, what about ideas that aren't just ambiguously correct, but are clearly wrong? People wrote books and chased down clearly false ideas plenty of times in history. It's a part of science too, to propose an idea that might not work out.
...
Doing incorrect information is hard when we don't even have "correct" information done. We'll get to specific cases eventually, but the myriad wrong paths people can take are harder to do. It'll be part of the myth stuff as each society looks at the generated story from its perspective, but maybe not much on the first pass.
Post by: DVNO on April 12, 2015, 08:07:09 pm
Post by: Rockphed on April 12, 2015, 08:53:39 pm
Instrument string throwing is totally a feature...
To me it sounds like a rubberband shooting contest. A bit odd, but a test of skill nonetheless.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on April 12, 2015, 11:10:00 pm
Edit: Nevermind. You literally answered that in the sentence that inspired the question.
Hurrah! We won't be befuddled by unproductive dwarves with wanderlust.
Post by: therahedwig on April 13, 2015, 06:11:15 am
Quote
Theoretically, the dwarf can go up to 150% and down as low as 50% in their effective skills,
So I predict what'll happen is that legendary dwarves will be neglected and locked away, while lesser skilled dwarves will get more entertainment and will be pampered, because it's more efficient to have multiple dwarves at the same quality than one dwarf being super efficient ;)
Post by: cephalo on April 13, 2015, 08:45:52 am
Being too comfortable is more likely to negatively affect productivity than stressors, to a degree anyway.
Post by: endlessblaze on April 13, 2015, 09:02:56 am
It would make sense to see something like
"He does not work well under pressure or stress"
For some dwarves and.
"Works well under pressure"
Or something of the like for others.
This would be more realistic than just have all dwarves be negatively or positively impacted becasue it respects the differences of individuals
Post by: Inarius on April 13, 2015, 09:11:19 am
Quote
This would be more realistic than just have all dwarves be negatively or positively impacted becasue it respects the differences of individuals
That's very true. I hope this will be taken into account. I reformulate the question, in green, this time.
Will the dwarves be impacted by stress according to their personnality ? Can stress be "positive" for productivity sometimes ?
Post by: Urist Arrhenius on April 13, 2015, 10:00:59 am
Post by: Inarius on April 14, 2015, 02:16:15 am
The death of a loved one isn't the sort of thing that increases productivity.
Unless you are an artist, for example.
Post by: Dirst on April 14, 2015, 09:16:46 pm
Not to turn this into a suggestion thread, but I'm not sure the stress thing needs to change, because these sorts of stressors are shown to pretty much universally decrease productivity. The death of a loved one isn't the sort of thing that increases productivity. Neither does not getting enough to eat, or anything like that. Happy employees are productive employees, and the type of stress that makes you work more actively usually relates to demands in the workplace, not tragedy at home.The terms you're looking for are eustress and distress. At the moment, we only seem to have distress.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on April 14, 2015, 09:54:22 pm
All thoughts, including being interested in furniture and the like, are considered eustress.Not to turn this into a suggestion thread, but I'm not sure the stress thing needs to change, because these sorts of stressors are shown to pretty much universally decrease productivity. The death of a loved one isn't the sort of thing that increases productivity. Neither does not getting enough to eat, or anything like that. Happy employees are productive employees, and the type of stress that makes you work more actively usually relates to demands in the workplace, not tragedy at home.The terms you're looking for are eustress and distress. At the moment, we only seem to have distress.
Post by: Rose on April 15, 2015, 09:58:39 pm
Post by: Max™ on April 16, 2015, 01:28:02 am
Urist McDancer cancels open door and get on floor: interrupted by web-spewing three-eyed dinosaur.
Post by: Vattic on April 16, 2015, 01:50:48 am
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 16, 2015, 01:54:24 am
Post by: Putnam on April 16, 2015, 03:48:52 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 16, 2015, 05:29:56 am
Also, stress seems to have become pretty easy to manage recently, are you making any Fun changes to encourage players to allow dancing Dwarves (besides slight increase in productivity?).
Seems like the min-maxers might not bother with dance floors at all.
Post by: HartLord on April 16, 2015, 03:15:20 pm
Post by: Dirst on April 16, 2015, 04:52:27 pm
Do you plan to have activities other than dancing that use area divisions in the next release?I think a spectator area would be useful for a fistfight, too :)
Post by: MrWiggles on April 16, 2015, 05:08:08 pm
We can rattle off probably lots of concepts that can make use of a division area. Sermons. Trails. Union Meetings. Operating Theater. Maybe get refactored for training by observing.Do you plan to have activities other than dancing that use area divisions in the next release?I think a spectator area would be useful for a fistfight, too :)
Post by: Brienne on April 17, 2015, 05:50:16 am
I wrote a suggestion here about "astronomy and astrology" http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=24818.msg6168773#msg6168773 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=24818.msg6168773#msg6168773)
One of common interest in past civilizations is astrology/astronomy. People thought messages were hidden in sky, they tried to understands god(s) and watched stars, comets, eclipses... and "explained" them.
I guess it could fit with DF universe.
IG, astrology could give clues about what happens in the world, may warns about future siege, necro/FB attacks...
Astronomy could help for travels, caravans stuff (frequency for ex), trade, special conditions stuff (stars alignment allowed special alloys and dwarves could predict that)... Artists could leave/come for astronomic events, like celtic priest gathering during full moon night,... could give astro moods...
It may needs special buidlings (mirror, glass, books,...)
Does it fit with knowledge and religion stuff you re working on? Does it interest you ?
Post by: Kishmond on April 17, 2015, 06:58:43 pm
Why is the cap for a job order in the manager screen 30?
I frequently make orders larger than that, especially since the bigger your fort the more necessary the manager becomes.
Post by: MrWiggles on April 17, 2015, 07:44:07 pm
Have you considered having Dwarves shove chairs and tables out of the way to make room to dance? Or is that too complicated for now?Considered? I would personally be very shocked if the thought didnt cross Threetoes or ToadyOne mind. Its probably been verbalized. Though without furniture objects being very static permanent things right now. Its probably the biggest headache with furniture right now, is how static they are.
Well, probably. But I think there like four kinds of DF players, and so not every feature will be used by every player type. I mean, there lots in Fort Mode player's dont have to engage with if they don't want to. They can also just go into the raws, and mute all the dorfs stress needs.
Also, stress seems to have become pretty easy to manage recently, are you making any Fun changes to encourage players to allow dancing Dwarves (besides slight increase in productivity?).
Seems like the min-maxers might not bother with dance floors at all.
Post by: SimRobert2001 on April 18, 2015, 01:30:45 am
This doesn't really relate to any features in develpoment, but I think it's a good question.
Why is the cap for a job order in the manager screen 30?
I frequently make orders larger than that, especially since the bigger your fort the more necessary the manager becomes.
Im not 100% sure, though i do know that df hack has a fix for that.
Post by: reality.auditor on April 18, 2015, 05:44:36 am
This doesn't really relate to any features in develpoment, but I think it's a good question.I think it is to force your manager to do more job. Of course, it could be solved in way that is more convenient to player. For example, you could write "56" and DF would automatically create two jobs - 30/30 and 26/26.
Why is the cap for a job order in the manager screen 30?
I frequently make orders larger than that, especially since the bigger your fort the more necessary the manager becomes.
Post by: Cruxador on April 18, 2015, 06:35:09 am
Logically, the most historical cases would include writing alongside graphical representations, which brings up a second question. Has any thought been given to such aesthetic concerns as illustration and calligraphy? This was pretty common practice especially in religious contexts. The monks of Western Christendom was well known for illuminated manuscripts for a good period, and the calligraphy and beauty of copies of books (most especially the Koran) have been an esteemed artform in Arabic cultures from the Islamic golden age. Eastern calligraphy focuses on short phrases, to my understanding, but is also worth incorporating in some respects probably. While that might not be a priority for the tavern release, it does tie in to the science, art, and religion themes that his release has picked up, and tavern signage (especially in German and Japanese usage) would probably use the same code foundation.
I interpreted this question differently, not referring to content but to difficulty of prose in a more fundamental sense. In real life, I wouldn't expect an adult or teenager with a low level of literacy to understand most translations of Kant, just because the material is difficult even if it might be a clever person who wouldn't have trouble with the concepts. There's also an issue of dialectal divergence, including things like the standard Freshman example where people mistake "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" to mean "Where are you Romeo?". But that's more complicated than what I would assume could be boiled down to a variable denoting level of prose and an accompanying level of reading skill needed for comprehension, with potentially an incomplete understanding (enough to use but not to write on) accompanied by a stressor for border cases.Quote from: VatticWill there be harder books that require greater reading skill than others?
I haven't sorted that out -- it isn't just the reading skill, but the scholarly/art skills/knowledge as well. It seems like some books should require not only prerequisite skills but also prerequisite knowledge to understand at all, whereas others might actually implicitly provide prerequisite knowledge as well as the topic knowledge while imparting some skill as well, depending on the subject, length of study, etc.
It's vaguely related to the overall adoption of an innovation -- at some point, losing books/scholars shouldn't matter if everybody in the civ picks up a concept from an early age or there are representative artifacts everywhere, but that only applies to some things that lend themselves to cultural absorption/reproduction (some of the more esoteric innovations never get that way, even after thousands of years, or they occupying a middle ground where they'd be more obvious but not without work).
Related to the dev log but not to development, there's been a lot of unsightly double-minus usage lately (--). You can easily make an n-dash (–) with Alt+0150 or, if you prefer, an m-dash (—) with Alt+0151. I like the n-dash better but either would be preferable to the double minus.
Post by: Fieari on April 20, 2015, 12:13:18 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 20, 2015, 12:20:17 am
With non-dwarf permanent residents, does that mean individuals will have their own civilization's moral code attached? Or to put it in laymans terms, if you have an Elf resident, will they be dismayed by woodcutting? Will moral codes be alterable in game, so that your Elf resident may become numb to tree death over time because of cultural immersion?I imagine that each elf's application for Dwarf Fortress residence involves being locked up with a pile of wood, an axe and regular visits from the hammerer. Soon get rid of those pesky morals. :)
Post by: Untelligent on April 20, 2015, 01:09:38 am
Related to the dev log but not to development, there's been a lot of unsightly double-minus usage lately (--). You can easily make an n-dash (–) with Alt+0150 or, if you prefer, an m-dash (—) with Alt+0151. I like the n-dash better but either would be preferable to the double minus.
All a matter of taste -- aesthetically, I like the double dash best, personally.
Post by: FeralMagus on April 20, 2015, 09:19:05 am
With humans being able to settle down in our forts, will it be possible to specify the size of armor and clothing we craft in order to accommodate them?
Post by: Rose on April 20, 2015, 09:22:30 am
Post by: Cruxador on April 20, 2015, 10:22:04 am
Rather, it's a matter of style. The "double dash" is a style borne of inadequate keyboard skill and you'd be hard-pressed to find any formalized style which supports it; if any such thing exists it's definitely not one widely used. You'll note that all major writing software will automatically replace a single dash with an n-dash and most will do the same for the double dash. A convention created to work around a limitation is inherently not correct as it exists purely to mimic the style which was desirable in the first place. This is akin to using an apostrophe in the place of an accent.Related to the dev log but not to development, there's been a lot of unsightly double-minus usage lately (--). You can easily make an n-dash (–) with Alt+0150 or, if you prefer, an m-dash (—) with Alt+0151. I like the n-dash better but either would be preferable to the double minus.
All a matter of taste -- aesthetically, I like the double dash best, personally.
Post by: therahedwig on April 20, 2015, 10:56:53 am
Rather, it's a matter of style. The "double dash" is a style borne of inadequate keyboard skill and you'd be hard-pressed to find any formalized style which supports it; if any such thing exists it's definitely not one widely used. You'll note that all major writing software will automatically replace a single dash with an n-dash and most will do the same for the double dash. A convention created to work around a limitation is inherently not correct as it exists purely to mimic the style which was desirable in the first place. This is akin to using an apostrophe in the place of an accent.Related to the dev log but not to development, there's been a lot of unsightly double-minus usage lately (--). You can easily make an n-dash (–) with Alt+0150 or, if you prefer, an m-dash (—) with Alt+0151. I like the n-dash better but either would be preferable to the double minus.
All a matter of taste -- aesthetically, I like the double dash best, personally.
Seriously, you guys are really going to fight over N-dashes of all things?
Shall I give a conversation killer? Toady doesn't use a CMS for the website if you look carefully. Which means he hand-edits it in notepad. Which means that N-dash is filtered out unless he uses the unicode thingymabob for it. In other words: It'd be a bother.
Post by: Eric Blank on April 20, 2015, 05:40:18 pm
Post by: Dirst on April 20, 2015, 06:51:56 pm
A visitor from a hippy civ should be offended by wooden chairs.
An elf who signed on to a member of your fort knows what to expect.
I'd expect a hippy hireling to be offended, but less so since they did willingly enter a contract with you knowing what you do.
"Urist, that loudmouth drunk, told everyone in the bar about the secret lumber mill!"
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 20, 2015, 10:46:05 pm
A visitor from a hippy civ should be offended by wooden chairs.
An elf who signed on to a member of your fort knows what to expect.
I'd expect a hippy hireling to be offended, but less so since they did willingly enter a contract with you knowing what you do.
"Urist, that loudmouth drunk, told everyone in the bar about the secret lumber mill!"
They should know what to expect, but at the same time, citizenship doesn't mean brainwashing (usually!). An elf made to work in the carpenter's workshop should feel a huge amount of stress for the first couple of years at least. And when in-fort factions are introduced will hopefully be a founding member of the radical save-the-crundles cult.
Post by: nomoetoe on April 20, 2015, 11:18:57 pm
Anyway, I started a new fortress in a new world, besides the 3 insanities caused by failed artifact making attempts everything is going well, I actually have a fully armored almost legendary skilled military, and the resources to make steel, c: I wonder how long it will be before everything goes horribly, horribly wrong.
Post by: endlessblaze on April 20, 2015, 11:28:57 pm
Keas, freaking keas. stealing and stuff.
Anyway, I started a new fortress in a new world, besides the 3 insanities caused by failed artifact making attempts everything is going well, I actually have a fully armored almost legendary skilled military, and the resources to make steel, c: I wonder how long it will be before everything goes horribly, horribly wrong.
put everthing inside, then build a roofed over hall as the entrance.
line with cage traps. keas will fly into them in an attempt to get inside.
tame or sell or butcher or something else.
say bye bye to thiveing keas
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 21, 2015, 12:18:23 am
This would apply to individuals who are not criminals per se, but who just won't respect some local customs, wood use being the standard example, and basically nobody likes them. (Actually, this can apply to dwarves too, if they have exotic morals.)
Post by: Button on April 21, 2015, 10:44:00 am
Toady, with forts now being playable with members of other civs as citizens, will there also be a mechanism allowing non-civilized creatures like tamed pets to become citizens in the same way? What will happen to the relationship between a pet owner and a "pet" who is thus considered a citizen?
There is a difference between having a visitor of another race and a citizen of another race. Visitors would have all of the ethics and values of their home civs (with individual variation), but a citizen is a member of the fort's civ, pretty much by the definition of "citizen." A category in between of hirelings (such as mercenaries and commissioned artists) make for an interesting gray area.
There is still the question though of what will happen with gremlins or, in modded games, other tameable sapients. I usually mod animal people tameable, so the question of when a captured "wild" sapient is considered a citizen is a good question.
Judging by the way naming conventions with tame sapients work now, I'd guess that if they're fortress-born, they'll be considered citizens; but if they're wild-caught, they never will be.
Post by: Spish on April 23, 2015, 08:58:26 pm
With non-dwarf permanent residents, does that mean individuals will have their own civilization's moral code attached? Or to put it in laymans terms, if you have an Elf resident, will they be dismayed by woodcutting? Will moral codes be alterable in game, so that your Elf resident may become numb to tree death over time because of cultural immersion?If nothing else, they could just do what any respectable dwarf citizen would under disagreeable circumstances: go insane.
Actually, that'd be interesting; a class of citizens whose mental well-being is tied directly to the environment.
Post by: sirvente on April 25, 2015, 01:09:16 pm
Post by: Putnam on April 25, 2015, 02:33:19 pm
Post by: Severedicks on April 25, 2015, 10:03:58 pm
Post by: Max™ on April 25, 2015, 10:49:27 pm
What is the definition of a k-chain of polyhedrons in a Banach space? What do you mean by a 'sum' of polyhedrons?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Could these methods be used to allow an adventurer to carry a quest log which could be recovered after their death, bonus question: could npcs occasionally have these with potentially interesting stuff or even just banal notes jotted down when you find their corpses?
Post by: skyte100 on April 25, 2015, 11:04:40 pm
Naturally one would have to kill you the moment you read it. For there are things man was not meant to know.What is the definition of a k-chain of polyhedrons in a Banach space? What do you mean by a 'sum' of polyhedrons?First thing that came to mind, and I know it's just a harmonic equation.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Could these methods be used to allow an adventurer to carry a quest log which could be recovered after their death, bonus question: could npcs occasionally have these with potentially interesting stuff or even just banal notes jotted down when you find their corpses?
Post by: Mel_Vixen on April 26, 2015, 01:34:21 am
Post by: DG on April 26, 2015, 01:35:28 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on April 26, 2015, 05:33:31 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on April 26, 2015, 10:58:00 am
Sounds like the alchemy-shop is back now (in a way) lets hope we are getting some phosphorus for our dorfs. Scrolls and books sound really sexy especialy since we can make them now. Will there be some kind of Fungus based paper? Furthermore will it be possible to use certain fabrics like silk (used for some time in china (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts))?
Sexy scrolls and books should be available based on the sexual prudishness of the area. In some places, they would be black market only.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on April 26, 2015, 04:21:10 pm
Quote
Today I got to work on some dwarfy library stuff -- like heating limestone and related minerals in the kiln for the quicklime, and then making "milk of lime" with that, so that the animal hides can be soaked and turned into parchment. The extra steps are there because both sorts of lime can be used for many other purposes which we will get to in later releases.
What sort of other uses do you envision?
Post by: Mel_Vixen on April 26, 2015, 04:51:07 pm
QuoteToday I got to work on some dwarfy library stuff -- like heating limestone and related minerals in the kiln for the quicklime, and then making "milk of lime" with that, so that the animal hides can be soaked and turned into parchment. The extra steps are there because both sorts of lime can be used for many other purposes which we will get to in later releases.
What sort of other uses do you envision?
Well lets do some quick wikisurfing: Quicklime was used in cement, plaster and may have been used as ignitionsource in greek fire. You can use quicklime to absorb Airmoisture which might help with preserving food and as heatsource for food (selfheating meals). It is also used in certain fertilizers to regulate acidity. Its used to pull sulfur from raw-iron, its E number is E529, was used in producing soap as well as a bleaching powder which doubled as a pretty effective desinfection powder.
So i would say there are some possibilities :P
Post by: blue sam3 on April 26, 2015, 04:55:37 pm
What is the definition of a k-chain of polyhedrons in a Banach space? What do you mean by a 'sum' of polyhedrons?
Right, we'll go through this one step at a time:
A Banach space is a complete normed vector space. That is: start with a field (probably R or C), and a set. Define two functions: one ("scalar multiplication") that takes an element of your set (we'll call them vectors) and an element of your field (we'll call them scalars) and gives you another vector, and another ("addition") that takes two vectors and gives you a third, and have them work exactly as you would expect addition of vectors and scalar multiplication to work in Rn (including having a vector (that we'll call 0) such that 0 + x = x for all vectors x - you can think of this exactly as you would n-dimensional space, except that it may be infinite dimensional, which makes weird stuff happen. Now define a third function (our "norm" - we'll denote the norm of a vector x by |x|) that takes vectors and gives you a non-negative real number that's supposed to represent how "big" that vector is (or "how far it is from zero", if that helps). Have this function be something sensible as far as representing a distance from zero goes (only zero on the zero vector itself, never negative, multiplying the vector by a scalar multiplies the norm by the absolute value of that scalar, and the norm of the sum of two vectors is no bigger than the sum of the norms - if it seems a bit weird that it's an inequality, think about adding the vectors (1,0) and (0,1) in R2, and notice that the line from 0 to (1,1) is shorter than 2.
That brings us to completeness. This one's a little harder to explain, but roughly, it means that there's no gaps in your space (relative to your norm) - for example, the rational numbers aren't complete, they're full of little gaps (the irrational numbers), but the real numbers are (no, I'm not going to prove that here). To be more precise: If we take any infinite sequence of vectors in our space, say it is Cauchy if they are "eventually arbitarily close together" - that is, a sequence (a_n) is Cauchy if, for every e > 0, there is a N such that for all n and m > N,
|a_n - a_m| < e. Say that the sequence converges if there is a vector a in our space such that the vectors are "eventually arbitarily close to a" - that is, (a_n) converges to a if, for every e > 0, there is a N such that for all n > N, |a_n - a| < e. If you think about this for a while, you might think that every Cauchy sequence should converge - and this is precisely what it means for a space to be complete. You can think of Cauchy sequences that don't converge as sequences that are trying to converge, but the thing that they're trying to converge to is missing, roughly (this is where the "no gaps" thing comes from).
Now, if all of that seemed horrible, here's the good news: in finite dimensions, they're all basically the same as Rn with the standard "square the coordinates, add them up and square root it" measure of size that you learnt in school.
I presume you know what "polyhedron" means in normal, 3 dimensional space. Here, we're talking about something that's basically the same, but in a more general banach space: the convex hull of finitely many points in a 3-dimensional subspace of that Banach space (or probably any embedded copy of R3) - what this means is that you take anything in your plane that's basically 3 dimensional (think of taking a flat slice of 3-dimensional space, then try to think about taking a 3d slice of 4d space, then just stop worrying about how many dimensions the big space has), pick some (finitely many) points in it, join them together with lines, and fill in the inside of the shape that you get. There's probably some non-degeneracy condition as well (no picking all of the points in a straight line/plane, probably). He might also be using the term to mean polytopes in general (it makes more sense with the k-chains later); which is exactly the same, except rather than only picking 3d slices, we pick slices of any (finite) number of dimensions n out of our space, then proceed as above (with the non-degeneracy condition (if it exists) now probably being something like "not all lying in the same n-1 dimensional space).
Now, on to sums of things that don't make sense to have sums: This is one of the single least satisfying definitions in all of mathematics, but the formal sum of some set of objects literally just means "write them down with + signs in between (and coefficients on the front so you can write 3x instead of x+x+x)". Whilst there are ways to formalise it with free abelian groups and stuff, basically nobody ever bothers, and that's what it comes down to. You can add things up exactly as you'd expect
A k-chain of polyhedron is now easy to define: it's a formal sum of k-dimensional polytopes (this is why I think he's talking about polytopes in general, rather than 3 dimensional ones in particular - if I were talking about the latter, I'd miss the "k" off the start). You can then define some actual content on these things: you can form something called a group (somewhere you can add up [as above], have something that acts like zero when adding things [the empty chain: the formal sum of no things], and you have a "-x" for every x [the same chain with all coefficients replaced by minus themselves] - all of this is true of general formal sums, and is exactly that formalisation that I was talking about above), and you have a boundary operator, that takes a k-chain of polyhedra, and gives the chain of (k-1 dimensional) polyhedra made up of its faces (so it would take a cube to the sum of the six squares that make up its faces, for example).
Post by: Severedicks on April 27, 2015, 05:17:03 am
Post by: reality.auditor on April 27, 2015, 08:03:00 am
Post by: Dirst on April 27, 2015, 08:36:00 am
For sake of our melting non-mathematician brains, could you talk about it in separate thread? :PI have two very distinct memories of learning the math that I now use quite a bit in my job. The first was the technique they show you in calculus right after you bang your head against the wall using the "limit as h → 0" method. The second was learning that subspace is a real scientific term.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on April 27, 2015, 03:38:21 pm
I was really bothered by that fact, because it means that warp drive in Star Trek actually uses a hyperspace where speed limits do not apply.For sake of our melting non-mathematician brains, could you talk about it in separate thread? :PI have two very distinct memories of learning the math that I now use quite a bit in my job. The first was the technique they show you in calculus right after you bang your head against the wall using the "limit as h → 0" method. The second was learning that subspace is a real scientific term.
Anyway, How many quires fit into a codex, and can they be on multiple subjects?
Great job on all of this. I cannot wait for the upcoming release. I shall acquire all knowledge!
Post by: Inarius on April 28, 2015, 04:42:07 am
Post by: Dirst on April 28, 2015, 06:36:23 am
Will you sum the donation received via patreon (or other websites, if any, one day) to those received via the website when you announce the monthly report ?You were expecting perhaps the harmonic mean rather than the sum? I think you want to ask if Toady will be breaking down the the donations by source or only reporting an aggregate.
So, the real question is will the announcement be in the form of vector in RN or in the form of a scalar "taxi" norm?
Post by: Severedicks on April 28, 2015, 07:35:14 am
For sake of our melting non-mathematician brains, could you talk about it in separate thread? :P
The reason I'm asking this here is because I've been reading up on Tarn's thesis (which I should add is about polyhedral k-chains) so I figured, why not ask the man himself? Sorry if it looks out of place.
Post by: Inarius on April 28, 2015, 08:00:57 am
Will you sum the donation received via patreon (or other websites, if any, one day) to those received via the website when you announce the monthly report ?You were expecting perhaps the harmonic mean rather than the sum? I think you want to ask if Toady will be breaking down the the donations by source or only reporting an aggregate.
So, the real question is will the announcement be in the form of vector in RN or in the form of a scalar "taxi" norm?
No, but, he could just give the donations received via the site, and not including those received by other means. Hence my question.
Post by: Cruxador on April 28, 2015, 08:18:27 am
There's nothing really wrong with that, but it's just a question that's more appropriate to either a general mathematics thread or (more useful from a practical standpoint, probably) to just email him.For sake of our melting non-mathematician brains, could you talk about it in separate thread? :P
The reason I'm asking this here is because I've been reading up on Tarn's thesis (which I should add is about polyhedral k-chains) so I figured, why not ask the man himself? Sorry if it looks out of place.
Post by: Batgirl1 on April 28, 2015, 09:49:30 pm
Post by: Putnam on April 28, 2015, 10:28:04 pm
With books and instruments done, what is the next thing coming up on the DF to-do list? :D
greentexted for question asking
also http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Post by: arkhometha on April 29, 2015, 09:07:15 am
Post by: Dirst on April 29, 2015, 09:28:25 am
Do boogeymen ever go extinct? In case of a no, do you plan to add a way to make them go extinct, since it would be kinda of strange seeing them in the Age of Fairy Tales?Why not have fairy tales about boogeymen? :)
Post by: LordBaal on April 29, 2015, 10:32:55 am
Post by: arkhometha on April 29, 2015, 11:11:24 am
That's what I want. The age of Fairy Tales to happen, or the age of civilization.Do boogeymen ever go extinct? In case of a no, do you plan to add a way to make them go extinct, since it would be kinda of strange seeing them in the Age of Fairy Tales?Why not have fairy tales about boogeymen? :)
The Age of Fairy Tales was a time when fantastic creatures were few and far between, and some even doubted their existence.
The Age of Civilization was a time when fantastic creatures were but mere stories told by travelers.
It seems strange that in these ages you can't walk alone during the night without getting ambushed by dozens of boogeymen.
Post by: Dirst on April 29, 2015, 04:02:08 pm
Thus the bit about "stories told by travelers"!That's what I want. The age of Fairy Tales to happen, or the age of civilization.Do boogeymen ever go extinct? In case of a no, do you plan to add a way to make them go extinct, since it would be kinda of strange seeing them in the Age of Fairy Tales?Why not have fairy tales about boogeymen? :)
The Age of Fairy Tales was a time when fantastic creatures were few and far between, and some even doubted their existence.
The Age of Civilization was a time when fantastic creatures were but mere stories told by travelers.
It seems strange that in these ages you can't walk alone during the night without getting ambushed by dozens of boogeymen.
For the record, I agree with you that they should be extinctable or vanish on their own as the world becomes mundane.
Post by: Cruxador on April 30, 2015, 08:31:57 am
For that I think we should deepen the waters of what are they precisely, where from where did they come from, where did they go, where did you come from boogeymen joe.... arrh ehmmm I mean, they should be redefined as something that has a reason, a reason that preferably can be stabbed or burned to death. Right now they simply exists and that's it.Myths about why the world works like it does are an eventual goal already.
Post by: Toady One on May 01, 2015, 11:03:37 pm
Quote from: Urist Arrhenius
If I understand you correctly, and this is mostly an issue of not having enough time to type out detailed descriptions, could this sort of thing be outsourced to your loving public? It wouldn't be at all hard for the community to flesh out scientific descriptions, especially of genuine scientific advancements.
I'm not sure what I'll need or how it'll change, so I don't want to set something like that up. When we get to the point where a raw format is more possible, I imagine it might happen on its own.
Quote from: Max TM
Is the "greatly respected for heroic acts" line in legends mode a "higher rank" than "legendary hero", and is there a similar sort like "greatly feared as a killer" beyond even "legendary killer" possible?
For some reason, that is actually a lower rank -- I think the convoluted logic at the time was that you had performed heroic acts but weren't yet recognized as a "hero". Getting to noun status is higher than any of the acts-type statements. "Legendary hero" is currently the top setting.
Quote from: DG
Toady, with visitors now coming to a fort, how important do you feel it is to have the ability to place arbitrary restrictions on which parts of a fort can be accessed? Like guards at the entrance to the royal chambers turning away everyone who isn't a noble without invitation, keeping random sightseers out of your secret defences, jailers granting or rejecting visitation rights, librarians supervising browsing or borrowing, kids being shooed out of taverns by the bouncer or any other thing you could imagine. "Sounds good, no time line" or closer on the horizon than that?
We've had outsiders coming to meetings for a while, and it didn't really come up, even though they could remember the positions of traps to pass on to invading armies. I don't really have a stronger reason to prioritize it now. If visitors could actually cause real trouble, it would matter more. Perhaps it will come up when we have more crime.
Quote from: jefam99
I was curious, with the new groups like bands and similar how big of a problem will loyalty cascades be? If my fortress is invaded by someone who is in a band with one of my dwarves, will i have to deal with my dwarf once i have killed off the invaders?
Although it would be difficult to end up in that situation (if the dwarf is still in the band), it would theoretically be considered... ideally we'd like cascades not to occur, but the whole idea of storing multiple entity memberships is to create complex conflicts, so hopefully some interesting stuff will happen as we go. Once we reach critical mass on those sorts of conflicts (which probably won't happen until we get subentities in the fort), we'll probably come up with some better faction formation/handling code, and better ways of showing what's going on to the player as well.
Quote from: endlessblaze
with multicultural forts coming out with knowlage transfer will we be able to gain the tech from other civs?
Like say, if a human moves into the fort with a scourge can we learn to make scourges?
It'll be a while before the knowledge system is linked to any actual stuff, but at that point, the transfer would be pretty straightforward. It might depend on how the linkages are set up for certain of them -- enabling something like a workshop reaction would probably be (almost) automatic, but having traders bring something acquired by a civ would require several auxiliary updates after the transfer for the civ to avoid problems.
Quote from: Dirst
How do you envision innovations affecting gameplay, and will it be used as an excuse to move some things out into the raws? I'm imaging several substitute reactions like INEFFICIENT_UNRELIABLE_STEELMAKING, INEFFICIENT_RELIABLE_STEELMAKING and EFFICIENT_RELIABLE_STEELMAKING, but there are others that don't map so well into current raws like using math innovations to unlock siege engines.
The ones we have now would most often just be a can-you-or-can't-you toggle for various jobs (reaction or otherwise) or items etc. But yeah, as we come to have a better chemistry system it could get really interesting. This aspiration is complicated by our profound ignorance.
Quote from: Elagn
How is the naming of innovations going to happen? For example with the Pythagorean Theorem, virtually everyone nowadays knows it as the Pythagorean theorem, yet it someone else had come up with it, it would be called something totally different? Is the game going to use the common, modern names so they are easy to look up for the players, or are the names of the innovations going to be more randomly generated or named after their inventors?
Yeah, I'm trying to stick with our efforts to leave Earth proper names out of the game. It gives descriptions of the innovations that should help people to look them up, though sometimes that is very clumsy as we try to dodge all the names they rely on. We're hoping to give the named ones names of their discoverers, yeah, though I don't think I did that yet, if I remember.
Quote from: Cobbler89
Once we have maps, I suppose it will be possible for them to get out of date as the lay of the land changes?
That's a hope -- not just maps that were formerly accurate, but maps that were never accurate in the first place. I wonder how that's going to turn out bug-report-wise though... In any case, we first vaguely played around with this in those 10-year legends mode snapshots, and various refinements in the amount and type of data stored should be possible. I'm not sure when we'll actually get to maps, but having them referred to as an innovation is another source of development pressure in that direction anyway.
Quote from: Verdant_Squire
You mention that maps might be a thing that could happen with this update ... does this mean that we can expect an Adventurer's omniscient knowledge of the landscape will disappear soon, and we will have to rely on various maps or road signs to understand where we are going? Will these maps be subject to various degrees of inaccuracy, with some areas artificially inflating or shrinking depending on lack of knowledge or even cultural bias? Could these include landmasses that don't exist in the world or could they even be missing landmasses that haven't been discovered yet?
I don't think displayed maps will happen this update -- they are referred to in the knowledge system, and cartographers might write interesting books said to have maps, but seeing maps will be a bit too far afield now, time-wise, but yeah, as for the inaccuracies the above response applies, and we're hoping for it as we move along.
Quote
Quote from: dmatter1) Do you plan on having the number of philosophers/schools of thought vary depending on societal phenomena? IE, can we expect to see things like an influx of philosophers during prolonged periods of war, sort of like the Axial age?
2) Someone mentioned Alexandria earlier. Which made me think of an article I read that talked about how most of Alexandria's knowledge was lost before it was burnt down. As such, are we going to eventually see certain historical figures implementing policies that erode the knowledge base? IE, such as cutting funding to maintaining libraries (and their books) and possibly even cutting academics. I'd also ask about (ideological) cronyism but that is probably so far down the road it isn't even worth asking about at this point.
Additionally, how are books going to be impacted by wear in fort mode? Is there going to be to a book maintenance labor, or, le gasp, a new sort of noble dealing exclusively with books and book maintenance?
3) There was also mention of forts within cities in the last set of questions, which makes me wonder will we (eventually) see boulevard sort of phenomena? IE, civ leaders demanding that large sections of walls be torn down and remain so for some cities/forts within cities? Or that a certain tile path always remain open to the 'heart' of a fort in fortress mode?Quote from: BFELIn a more generalized sense relating to [3] do you plan to have characters that can force or otherwise threaten the player to do things, such as the above example? If so, what is the extent of it? We already have the "export the wrong thing/don't meet a mandate and a random dwarf dies" consequence, would we see similar consequences for missing a mandated road or such?
1) I don't have particular plans along those lines. It won't happen unless I have a clear handle on the influences in question, since I wouldn't know how to model it.
2) Yeah, I'm hoping to plant the seeds for this sort of thing with the upcoming frameworks for start scenarios. We want civilizations that have their own character, and then we want differing individuals and groups in those civilizations to be able to interact with those systems as well, so that we have various forces of internal change. Each of the mechanics we put in place will accomplish something, and we'd need three or four different mechanics for the Alexandria example you gave to pop up naturally (we don't even have mechanics for natural decay at all, except perhaps for the w.g. resource stockpiles). Hopefully interesting things will start to happen from the beginning of the big framework addition, since the ethics/law/property settings on societies will be able to shift, sometimes drastically.
3) I haven't thought about boulevards or eminent domain stuff, but it raises interesting questions about just how far personal mandates can go vs. the official will of the fortress (the player) in fortress mode internally, and externally, what other sorts of things the monarch might request. We'll see some of it with the first structured embark scenarios, and it should grow from there as we get to armies and trade/economics (the two major things we always seem to never quite get to fully). If you have a tight link with your civilization, I expect you could end up with some taxing requests, but hopefully we'll also get to positive aspects of the relationship. Eventually we're hoping to have intelligent megabeasts and other critters do the same thing. Overall, a fortress mode game with a lot of decisions that need to be made should be entertaining, with the option to be kind of farflung or otherwise left alone if you prefer that sort of game. It's easy enough to allow both sorts.
Quote from: tahu16
If I understand, books will provide experience for a skill, when a dwarf is reading it (in the far, future version).
1) Will you lower the experience gaining of the current "Find out yourself" method of training for the balance? Will it take more time to train a legendary X without books in the future?
2)Are you planning to introduce other training helping methods, like the master-pretence relationship?
3)What are your plans about diseases?
Books won't necessarily provide experience for a skill, but yeah, there should eventually be book that function that way, though I'm not sure how much you'll be able to increase certain skills with books. For the elements of skill that we don't turn into knowledge, books might still apply, but perhaps the skill gain won't be direct, but potential or something, once you actually get to work. As for "find out yourself", we were thinking that when we get there, the knowledge system will actually make the situation much more drastic -- certain jobs won't even be possible (you'd essentially be "researching" the knowledge), and for those that a dwarf without skill or knowledge can attempt (because its a well-known part of their civ), there would be negative quality classes and very slow if any skill increases depending on the example. So they'd get a completely crude shoddy crap chair that breaks, over and over... like me trying to make a chair. I know chairs exist and could attempt the job, but my first attempt would be in the -4 range... it might even hurt the dwarf that tried to sit on it. We should add splinters.
But yeah, you could be fine without books if you had a master, and we're definitely planning on having those and even larger guild-type structures in force mode.
Both natural and supernatural diseases are all in the notes, and we'll just add in different sorts as we go. The existing syndrome effects in the raws should be a great help. The "random" nature of natural diseases could be quite annoying in the game, but if it fits into the larger happenings of the world and there's some exposition, it's probably fine to just wipe out 60% of a fort once in a while, he he he -- or give you the choice to turn away all migrants before it happens, perhaps, sometimes. We try to keep the player's enjoyment in mind, so hopefully it can be added with reasonable care.
Quote from: DarkwingUK
I saw that you are working on history books, and I was wondering whether the books you are talking about are just book titles like "This is a comparative biography of those three mayors, in such and such a style," or whether there will be books that record some of the significant events or citizens of our fortress that took place during fortress mode. I always loved the little stories that you get when you engrave a slab, but sometimes you have a dwarf that you really followed closely and when they die you would love to have some kind of recording of who they were and what they did in a more comprehensive way. As it stands, once they die you can't read about their preferences and friends and relationships while still in Fortress Mode as far as I can tell, so they become slightly lost. Also it would be amazing to have a little access to some of that history that we get in legends mode, but written from a citizen's point of view while still in fortress mode!
He he he, there'll be events, though, like engravings of cheese, I'm not sure "significant" will always apply.
Quote from: Solarius Scorch
Given the master-apprentice model being introduced, will such pairs emerge in the fortress mode eventually?
Yeah, we're hoping that becomes a mainstay of fortress life in time, along with bringing the guilds back.
Quote from: Heph
Will certain nightcreatures, Vampires come to mind, be able to become students and teachers? Also will people actively search for new teachers to broaden their horizon once they learned everything from the old one? Would be nice to see wandering scholars. And finally will animals be part of the troupe? I don't remember if it came up earlier but it would nice to see trained animals, it could work similar to dances with some generated performances and some basic tricks.
I think vampires take part in normal w.g. life, unless I'm missing something -- the suspicions of people will screw up their site ties sometimes now, but I think their students might even follow them out of town if they flee. There could also be issues with vampire students returning to places where they are not welcome, though I'm not sure what'll happen. Students will sometimes leave teachers, for reasons or just to wander, but they don't really have a learned-everything check at this point. I haven't done anything with animals.
Quote from: Dirst
Toady I don't want to spoil the hunt for anything in the current version, but do you have any favorite Easter eggs that you left in prior versions of DF or other Bay12 games?
I don't know that there are any unfound ones left... there have been less of them over time, since the early ones tend to get written out as systems get generalized, and it's sort of sad to see them go.
Quote from: Zavvnao
Toady, what you said about my one response makes sense, but I was talking about pre-worldgen ruines, and was not clear bout that.
I had meant that there could be pre-worldgen ruins, (like how there are caves or temples or labrynths and such that re pre-worldgen) that have "modern" things in the sense of how they existed to ancient people in the form of novelties since slaves where easier at that time than steam power.
Plus, you said you wanted a generic fantasy world generator, and hints of an ancient precursor race is very cliche in fantasy.
We've included some of these in the myth generator, and we're hoping that everything will be explained and that you'll be able to find and interact with some very old things. The flipside is that it's tricky to determine when "year 1" should be, in terms of running the situation in more detail with more actors and spatial information. We're just going to toy around with it in the artifact release.
Quote from: unchow
Is there any intent to handle the issue of literacy down the road? Within the scope of this update it sounds like everyone will be able to read everything, which makes sense. Throughout history, it was common for largely illiterate groups of people to congregate in taverns (or the like) and have one literate person read a piece aloud. If a significant number of a fortress couldn't read well enough to get a happy thought from a book of poetry, a single literate dwarf could read the poem to his/her peers even if no one is an actual poet, and then everyone would be happier.
I think this would tie in nicely to the "do dwarfs read in their downtime" question, even if all dwarfs remained perfectly literate.This might not make as much sense for "knowledge" books, since people don't typically pick up "Siege engineering for dummies" in their spare time, but it might be a middle-ground between a common "one dwarf reading one book alone" occurrence and a relatively rare "giant festival" event. Similar to small groups of dwarfs dancing in their free time outside of the festival events?
Also, I know that language isn't really an explicit thing right now, and you mentioned getting books translated. Would you ever consider having different languages influence each other and change? Historically, languages like English have been notorious for stealing words from neighbors, and also developing into a massive number of different local dialects (much in the way cultural values flow between different populations). Is this a topic you would ever want to approach?
Yeah, differentiating abilities to speak and read/write in each language is the eventual goal.
We have a little list of dev goals concerning information about languages, and I've had an interest in linguistics for quite a while, so I'm hoping to get a lot in there. Once we have more information, various forms of language change will be on the table, though there are some concerns with exactly how to store them if there are lots of individual changes over time (and then store which speakers use which dialect).
Quote from: Neonivek
So I am going to make an assumption that later on there will be events, disasters, curses, creatures, what have you that will just flat out wipe civilizations off the face of the map where only their ruins still exist.
Because these happen in game, do you plan to make the players immune to such events, give them a fighting change, forewarn them that making a fortress in such a situation would be bad, or just allow them to fall to the civ wide death curse, or do you have something else in mind? Or is there just never going to be these sort of cataclysmic events?
Will you ever do something with the population so it feels less like the population limit is hit within the first 100 years and the world just constantly reincarnates the same 20,000 souls over and over again? Or is that just an ingrained issue?
As I stated above with plagues, I think my overall inclination is to go ahead with horrible random disasters, but to lean toward giving the player reasonable warnings that allow them to make decisions (like the turning away of migrants) which might be painful but could help. There are certain things like earthquakes which don't really have something like that, and I think it might be too much just to totally destroy a fort like the old demon timer from 2D (where you didn't even see a demon and it just ended the game, pending an adventure mode run). Rarely wiping out half of the dwarves in a quake on the other hand... I can kind of get on board. Sim City made it entertaining enough when a city-wide disaster struck, and we can probably manage -- especially if the effects of the disaster reverberate outward in a way that can be enjoyed for as long as you're playing the world, rather than just forcing you to rebuild and continue locally. I'd definitely understand turning that off though, for people that are just interested in working on fort-centered projects and so on.
The non-historical entity populations (you can see them in one of the text exports) were there to allow the population to increase beyond the historical figure cap, though that also tops out when you hit the site cap (at some hundreds of thousands). There's nothing much that can be done about it. Even if we overcome the memory issue (by successfully getting to 64 bits, say), there will still be FPS issues that stop it all the same. As long as we can keep things playable at 20000 hist figs, it doesn't really bother me. You couldn't meet and meaningfully interact with that many people easily even over many games. The main issue as I see it is how the non-historical people are... non-historical, and it might not be enough for them to just direct you toward the historical ones.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
How will you handle "off to tame the giant mantis" quests?
The naturalist innovation branch kind of made those seem a little odd, as stand-alone independent events (and we haven't added any general domestication stuff so there'll be even more information later). Still, they have kind of an epic feel to them and there should be things like that -- perhaps with more of a story to them. So far they are as they were, and we'll see how they evolve -- there's this issue of the tamed animals not fully being incorporated over time into the civ, and that should happen in some cases instead of whatever half-broken invasions-only state they are in now. I kind of feel like I'm forgetting something on this one...
Quote from: Button
Since this will (hopefully) be a shorter development cycle on the new release, will the corresponding post-release bugfix drive also be shorter, or do you just fix bugs until you're bored of fixing bugs?
It'll probably be shorter than six months or whatever, yeah. I think somebody calculated out what usually happens... was it 1:4 or something? There isn't a fixed schedule though. Hopefully we can get the releases shorter than this one is turning out, but it'll be tricky with some of the framework releases. Still trying to figure out how that'll be divided up.
Quote from: DVNO
I just found and quite liked Threetoes' Stories, is there a chance of another one coming out?
He has been writing one, but the reward responsibilities have increased... and I suspect this May is going to be the most intense reward period we've ever had due to the Patreon bump. We may yet see something, since there has been progress.
Quote from: Japa
You mention that spectator areas and such will be automatic. will we still be able to designate them if we want to have a dedicated auditorium? Will this ever be expanded to other activities like gladiator arenas?
Once we get to more interesting spectacles, there'll probably be more control. For spontaneous dance activities we aren't really planning to set them up. We have the new performance artforms, but we don't really have organized performances -- this might be come up when we have our visitors further along, since they include troupes. As it currently stands, the troupes would just join in with tavern revelry and by their example teach your dwarves lots of new songs and so on. When I'm done, they'll be able to perform as a unit, but they won't need a special stage or anything.
Quote from: Vattic
Might we get rowdy creatures dancing on tables?
Somebody brought up the stepladders, and we do have some more code for it, but I don't think I'll get to it this time.
Quote from: Putnam
Will the new libraries have any raw-defined and/or randomly generated secret books in them, which is to say anything with IS_SECRET:MUNDANE_RECORDING_POSSIBLE in them?
There could be some quirky way that a necromancer (or post w.g. adv) gets a book to a library, but I haven't expanded or linked that SECRET system into the innovation/knowledge system -- I think that ongoing neglect is because of the upcoming obliteration coming with the myth/artifact stuff... then it'll be much more common, though I'm not sure how much of the SECRET stuff will survive vs. new general linkages with knowledge and whatever else. So you might have to wait one more step, but there'll be some intense interaction modding changes coming.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Have you considered having Dwarves shove chairs and tables out of the way to make room to dance? Or is that too complicated for now?
Also, stress seems to have become pretty easy to manage recently, are you making any Fun changes to encourage players to allow dancing Dwarves (besides slight increase in productivity?).
Seems like the min-maxers might not bother with dance floors at all.
For now yeah, I don't want to mess with moving buildings. There are too many variables and potential hangers-on that could get screwed up. They are one of the main reasons "moving fortresses" are going to be their own release topic most likely. It would be nice to just kind of toss them around like stepladders, and it kind of relates to fluid workshop ideas floating around, but there's this unfortunate thing where chairs etc. get these whole rooms attached to them and all that. There'll need to be a large reckoning later where we try to reformulate them.
Satisfying a dwarf's needs has a positive effect now -- min-maxers that ignore that are neither minning nor maxing. I'm not sure I want to keep jamming stress effects. We kind of need the threat of emigration, a frightening enough proposition that I imagine people would start to care quite a bit about happy dwarves.
Quote from: HartLord
Do you plan to have activities other than dancing that use area divisions in the next release?
All of the activities try to set aside some space for themselves, like a place for the musicians and a place for those listening (just so the musicians end up near each other), but dances are the only ones with three places.
Quote from: Brienne
One of common interest in past civilizations is astrology/astronomy. People thought messages were hidden in sky, they tried to understands god(s) and watched stars, comets, eclipses... and "explained" them.
I guess it could fit with DF universe.
IG, astrology could give clues about what happens in the world, may warns about future siege, necro/FB attacks...
Astronomy could help for travels, caravans stuff (frequency for ex), trade, special conditions stuff (stars alignment allowed special alloys and dwarves could predict that)... Artists could leave/come for astronomic events, like celtic priest gathering during full moon night,... could give astro moods...
It may needs special buidlings (mirror, glass, books,...)
Does it fit with knowledge and religion stuff you re working on? Does it interest you ?
He he he, yeah, we've actually played around a lot with astronomy in side projects, and that's probably one reason we never really focused on it in DF. We'll eventually jump right into that stuff from a lot of different directions, including the astrology angle (and having different calendars as well and so on). Science-wise, the innovation system has an entire branch for astronomy, and eventually that'll be linked into various aspects of the game in terms of navigation and so on.
Quote
Quote from: KishmondWhy is the cap for a job order in the manager screen 30?Quote from: reality.auditorI think it is to force your manager to do more job. Of course, it could be solved in way that is more convenient to player. For example, you could write "56" and DF would automatically create two jobs - 30/30 and 26/26.
It has been so long that I don't recall the reason. It does seem like the manager should have to do some sort of work, but the artificial limit is strange. The standing order change coming up will probably shake this up a bit, though I expect it will be limited for this release unless we get lucky. Hopefully we can find a good balance.
Quote from: Cruxador
So written stuff is books and could include scrolls, but despite already being used, not much reference was made for slabs, and engravings haven't come up at all. Do you suppose that literate dwarves might make and enjoy text-oriented engravings? These do seem to be things that are only prevalent in more modern times with widespread literacy but the Egyptians were also known for it, and it would be a good way to get a lot of book content into the fortress as well.
Logically, the most historical cases would include writing alongside graphical representations, which brings up a second question. Has any thought been given to such aesthetic concerns as illustration and calligraphy? This was pretty common practice especially in religious contexts. The monks of Western Christendom was well known for illuminated manuscripts for a good period, and the calligraphy and beauty of copies of books (most especially the Koran) have been an esteemed artform in Arabic cultures from the Islamic golden age. Eastern calligraphy focuses on short phrases, to my understanding, but is also worth incorporating in some respects probably. While that might not be a priority for the tavern release, it does tie in to the science, art, and religion themes that his release has picked up, and tavern signage (especially in German and Japanese usage) would probably use the same code foundation.
Yeah, I think it'll be good for written content to be included on engravings and slabs. I'm not sure what I'll get to, but it should go in sometime, especially for dwarves, who would reasonably like that sort of thing.
We've considered illustrations and some of the other qualities of books, probably because of the Name of the Rose scriptorium, he he he... I think there might even be an illustration object sitting around unused from when we first added books, but we didn't get to it then, and we probably won't make it this time either. I'm not sure why. Probably just a question of time as usual. I haven't gotten into stuff like calligraphy at all because the overall lack of language work has prevented us from exploring orthography in general.
Quote from: Fieari
With non-dwarf permanent residents, does that mean individuals will have their own civilization's moral code attached? Or to put it in laymans terms, if you have an Elf resident, will they be dismayed by woodcutting? Will moral codes be alterable in game, so that your Elf resident may become numb to tree death over time because of cultural immersion?
Well, they have the values and ethics from their origin civilization, but these haven't had a broad implementation as it concerns most fortress mode situations, so it'll be an ongoing process. We'll probably play around with it a little bit, especially as we look at their thought screens and see the discrepancies. I haven't done anything with personality alteration in general (outside of that general numbness counter) -- these kind of character changes/growth/etc. are one of the most important parts of stories, so we'll get to it sometime, but I don't have anything scheduled. The new non-dwarf residents will just put some new pressure on the change, which is how things often eventually get done.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Toady, with forts now being playable with members of other civs as citizens, will there also be a mechanism allowing non-civilized creatures like tamed pets to become citizens in the same way? What will happen to the relationship between a pet owner and a "pet" who is thus considered a citizen?
Button mentioned tame gremlins, which are probably the oddest case now, since they'd probably be the new "citizen-but-also-pet" mess. Regular not-so-intelligent pets would not be considered citizens. Gremlin pets were made tameable by us so that they could revert and pull interior levers (as if they were pretending to be tame the whole time)... I'm not sure what should happen there.
Quote from: Solarius Scorch
Seeing as the issue different cultural norms in your fortress becomes prominent, is it possible for citizens to not only join the fort, but also be banished from it (or leave on their own accord)?
This would apply to individuals who are not criminals per se, but who just won't respect some local customs, wood use being the standard example, and basically nobody likes them. (Actually, this can apply to dwarves too, if they have exotic morals.)
The response is pretty much as with Fieari's question above -- as they get to care about more things, it'll be an issue that needs to be dealt with, but we aren't sure when it's going to come up in enough important cases for it to matter. The issue of banishment also came up when were considering hill dwarves. Those aren't all that far away now, and the ability to send dwarves out to the hills or back will have to be considered now with the existence of non-dwarf residents and how they'd react to that.
Quote from: Severedicks
What is the definition of a k-chain of polyhedrons in a Banach space? What do you mean by a 'sum' of polyhedrons?
Is it like the union of all polytopes in the sum? Does the induced space act as a vector space? For a given polytope [P], how are defined g[P], [P]+[Q] or [-P]?
I don't have much to add to what blue sam3 said. You can think of the normed abelian group as a kind of "density" on the faces of the chain, and the negative signs are from the orientation (you can imagine a counterclockwise face canceling out a chain of the same density with the same clockwise face). The boundary chain gets the orientation induced by the orientation of the face. You can think of it as a union or equivalence class of various chains or whatever -- once the operations are established formally, I just think of it all visually as oriented polyhedra with densities, and it suffices to draw stuff in 2D for most tinkering. The preliminaries section of the paper has the three formal equivalences that are in effect -- (-g)[P] = g[-P] (so negative densities flip the orientation). (g1+g2)[P] = g1[P] + g2[P], so densities just act like you'd expect and you can add them. And finally g[P1 U P2] = g[P1] + g[P2], which gets at what a sum of polyhedral chains means for us -- it's a union of all the polyhedra we are considering, and you can decomposes stuff however you like. These are just formal operations to make working with the objects easier.
Quote from: Max TM
Could these methods be used to allow an adventurer to carry a quest log which could be recovered after their death, bonus question: could npcs occasionally have these with potentially interesting stuff or even just banal notes jotted down when you find their corpses?
It really depends on where we go with it. A book that has stuff in it can have whatever in it. We just need to work on various cases as we go.
Quote from: Heph
Will there be some kind of Fungus based paper? Furthermore will it be possible to use certain fabrics like silk (used for some time in china)?
Pig tails can be made into paper like the other "thread" plants. We haven't gotten to silk paper.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
Is purely vocal knowledge and history going to be covered?
The master-apprentice stuff works that way, and your dwarves can learn art forms from all over the world from visiting troupes (which they can then try themselves, often badly). I haven't done much with oral or written history -- there are lots of events and that makes it difficult to model knowledge of them.
Quote from: Zarathustra30
How many quires fit into a codex, and can they be on multiple subjects?
That's the very next to-do with books, but the existing book structures already support multiple "pages" improvements on different topics, so hopefully we'll be able to do that. I'm not sure how the codex maker is going to choose, with a preference by author or by topic or whatever.
Quote from: Inarius
Will you sum the donation received via patreon (or other websites, if any, one day) to those received via the website when you announce the monthly report ?
Yeah, as we've been doing with mail contributions and PayPal, we'll just add everything together.
Quote from: Batgirl1
With books and instruments done, what is the next thing coming up on the DF to-do list?
There's still a bit to do with books, but visitors to fortress mode taverns/inns are our next big topic.
Quote from: arkhometha
Do boogeymen ever go extinct? In case of a no, do you plan to add a way to make them go extinct, since it would be kinda of strange seeing them in the Age of Fairy Tales?
They don't. Later on, I imagine the interaction with them will change as their origin is more explained, and that various world changing outcomes will be possible eventually -- the upcoming myth generator will be one of the first steps in establishing (randomly) what is going on. Our place-holder is just that they are some sort of incarnation of the night that doesn't have a number attached.
Post by: Ianflow on May 01, 2015, 11:41:32 pm
2. With what you just said about Earthquakes, have social stigmas affecting the fort's business been considered? (a la what happened during chinese feudalism if a large enough natural disaster occurred)
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 02, 2015, 03:35:19 am
I honestly can't wait for chairs with splinters. Maybe a dwarf injured many times will finally get furious and just smash the damn thing? Or we could use it as an element of a very benign trap? :)
Post by: Mel_Vixen on May 02, 2015, 03:58:29 am
Negative results would be awesome though i hope that certain proficiencies will be easier to master then others like sewing were you can correct mistakes and get more training without using to many resources.
To bad that there wont be any animals in troupes, eh dancing Bear-men will have to do instead of dancing bears.
Post by: tahu16 on May 02, 2015, 05:30:30 am
With enough luck and "accidents", will it be possible to make a fortress, where the only citizens are , well ... batmen?
(or any other non-dwarf immigrants, like humans, animal-men etc.)
Yes! Hopefully, this will be a ‼Challenge‼
Post by: Cruxador on May 02, 2015, 07:57:21 am
As I stated above with plagues, I think my overall inclination is to go ahead with horrible random disasters, but to lean toward giving the player reasonable warnings that allow them to make decisions (like the turning away of migrants) which might be painful but could help. There are certain things like earthquakes which don't really have something like that, and I think it might be too much just to totally destroy a fort like the old demon timer from 2D (where you didn't even see a demon and it just ended the game, pending an adventure mode run). Rarely wiping out half of the dwarves in a quake on the other hand... I can kind of get on board. Sim City made it entertaining enough when a city-wide disaster struck, and we can probably manage -- especially if the effects of the disaster reverberate outward in a way that can be enjoyed for as long as you're playing the world, rather than just forcing you to rebuild and continue locally. I'd definitely understand turning that off though, for people that are just interested in working on fort-centered projects and so on.Seems to me that earthquakes could solve the old problem with calculating structural integrity of player-made structures being resource-intensive. Maybe mix it up a bit, so even a hall in stome could collapse if it's too big and not braced, but that would be rare, while on the other hand if you've got a fort suspending in mid air by a beam of soap, that's gonna fall on any earthquake.
Post by: arkhometha on May 02, 2015, 08:02:37 am
Post by: Vattic on May 02, 2015, 10:07:01 am
Post by: BFEL on May 02, 2015, 12:05:28 pm
Thank you for the answers, Toady!A fortress entirely of Batmen who's parents were murdered and swore to fight crime as THE Batman. Best. Fort. Ever.
With enough luck and "accidents", will it be possible to make a fortress, where every citizen are , well ... batmen?
(or any other non-dwarf immigrants, like humans, animal-men etc.)
Yes! Hopefully, this will be a ‼Challenge‼
Post by: Alfrodo on May 02, 2015, 12:49:40 pm
Post by: therahedwig on May 02, 2015, 01:27:04 pm
Will the distant update require new worlds for the changes to occur?Considering that everything with new jobs and new civ knowledge requires a regen for mods, I imagine the tavern update will need it yes.
Basically, if the civs never get told about poetry being a thing they oughta generate, they won't generate it, so no dancers and poets. Furthermore, books, instruments and the knowledge to make them are also a typical thing that civs need to understand civ-wide before your dwarves can do them, so that probably needs regening as well.
I imagine you'd be able to define a tavern, but that's basically it.
Post by: Knight Otu on May 02, 2015, 03:04:58 pm
Assuming the update remains save-compatible*, that's about the size of it, yeah:Will the distant update require new worlds for the changes to occur?Considering that everything with new jobs and new civ knowledge requires a regen for mods, I imagine the tavern update will need it yes.
Basically, if the civs never get told about poetry being a thing they oughta generate, they won't generate it, so no dancers and poets. Furthermore, books, instruments and the knowledge to make them are also a typical thing that civs need to understand civ-wide before your dwarves can do them, so that probably needs regening as well.
I imagine you'd be able to define a tavern, but that's basically it.
Quote from: Toady One
Right now, it's still compatible. It was too difficult to get the old saves to generate new instruments without crashing everything, so they'll be somewhat impoverished. The dwarves might be able to make completely freeform stuff or nothing at all. I'll know more when dwarves are using the new forms. I'm trying to maintain the basic compatibility so I have an easier time with old bug report saves and so on, and there might be some use of the new art stuff in old forts (instrument defs are the hard part, so they might get singing forms, poetry and dance, but I can't promise it). Other things like taverns/temples/needs etc. should work immediately in old forts, though you won't have as many varied visitors because entire classes of visitors (bards etc.) won't exist in the old worlds.*And even if this release does, I'm assuming a break in save compatibility will come up sooner rather than later. I didn't have one on the table for the artifacts section originally, but with the mythology generator incoming, it's also a candidate now.
Post by: Authority2 on May 02, 2015, 03:12:27 pm
Ooh, definitely sounds like a good suggestion. You should make a thread.As I stated above with plagues, I think my overall inclination is to go ahead with horrible random disasters, but to lean toward giving the player reasonable warnings that allow them to make decisions (like the turning away of migrants) which might be painful but could help. There are certain things like earthquakes which don't really have something like that, and I think it might be too much just to totally destroy a fort like the old demon timer from 2D (where you didn't even see a demon and it just ended the game, pending an adventure mode run). Rarely wiping out half of the dwarves in a quake on the other hand... I can kind of get on board. Sim City made it entertaining enough when a city-wide disaster struck, and we can probably manage -- especially if the effects of the disaster reverberate outward in a way that can be enjoyed for as long as you're playing the world, rather than just forcing you to rebuild and continue locally. I'd definitely understand turning that off though, for people that are just interested in working on fort-centered projects and so on.Seems to me that earthquakes could solve the old problem with calculating structural integrity of player-made structures being resource-intensive. Maybe mix it up a bit, so even a hall in stome could collapse if it's too big and not braced, but that would be rare, while on the other hand if you've got a fort suspending in mid air by a beam of soap, that's gonna fall on any earthquake.
Post by: Max™ on May 02, 2015, 08:02:19 pm
Recently I figured out how to fake vertical jumps as an adventurer (and Rumrusher promptly expanded it to allow control when throwing your opponents around) but I had to use Roses' method from the propel.lua script of turning your dorf into a projectile to do so.
This leads me to a question:
An active projectile has several flags which were critical in getting my dorfs hopping up into trees (and goblin towers) like PARABOLIC and NO_COLLIDE plus NO_IMPACT_DESTROY, but for the life of me I can't determine what HIGH_FLYING does, would you happen to recall if it is an outdated tag or just for something else entirely? Oh, and do any of the numerical flags there have an effect on the way a projectile lands? When you jump you can land on your feet, using the launch.lua script right now you basically have to keep a hand free and grab on to a wall or tree to stop yourself, or just skid to a stop and hope your armor/toughness can take it.
I am also so freakishly excited for the artifacts/myths update, like [*HEAVY BREATHING INTENSIFIES*] type, though I'm dying to go explore and see how all the music and library stuff plays out, always new stuff popping up to surprise me in the current version, totally new stuff is a treat!
Post by: Greiger on May 03, 2015, 11:17:17 am
Post by: Knight Otu on May 03, 2015, 11:27:48 am
Quote from: HephSo now maths and engineering :P will we get differential gears and banana Spaces?
Generally speaking what are the highest ideas the dorfs or any other civ can come up with?
Differential gears are certainly one of the popular "did they or didn't they" technologies -- just in my quick run through, they were hypothesized in the Greek mechanism as well as the Chinese south-pointing chariot. I don't remember finding anything definitive online. I went ahead and made them a difficult tech (and added the pointing chariot and astrarium -- abstractly for now of course).
They can get divergence of the harmonic series and invent a symbol for addition, but no banach spaces. They can build a theory of rainbows using water-filled spheres and a camera obscura, and they can calculate the height of the atmosphere based on atmospheric refraction using the law of refraction (though it tries not to get into the actual shape of the world, since that might vary). They can make oil of vitriol and spirit of niter in theory, though I don't remember if we have any vitriols at all. Historians can start to understand how cultural differences and state bias affects source reliability and think a bit about social forces. They can come up with dedicated hospitals with specialized wards, staffing, medical labs and treatment for many illnesses. All sorts of other stuff -- as far as I can tell, none of this bumps up against the soft 1400 cut off, though there was disputed material here and there, in every field, and people are welcome to comment or advocate for inclusion/removal if they have information.
Post by: Greiger on May 03, 2015, 12:20:47 pm
/me commits Sudoku.
(Seriously thanks, I missed that :))
Post by: Shashu on May 04, 2015, 08:46:08 pm
- Wow, great devlog!
* a red panda man that became an herbalist in a human village for some years before taking up a wandering life as a musician
* In adventure mode, you can now play as animal people if they are close to a civilization
* you could play an elf or even a goblin if some already live in a human city[/li]
So much unexpected good stuff coming in this release!!
Post by: SimRobert2001 on May 04, 2015, 09:44:46 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 04, 2015, 10:07:24 pm
So, what part of the visitors will visitors play in our fortresses? Are any of them capable of betraying us during a siege, and say, opening a drawbridge?Spies like vampires with false histories that have them from friendly civs when actually they're from the dark pits down the road, perhaps? That would be cool! High lasher skill being the dead giveaway that gets them the room in the tavern located just above the magma pit...
Post by: Asmageddon on May 04, 2015, 11:57:04 pm
Post by: Putnam on May 04, 2015, 11:59:25 pm
Specific bugs should be reported on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/), and specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Post by: Lord Herman on May 05, 2015, 01:17:28 am
Post by: SupremeSandwich on May 05, 2015, 04:15:28 am
Post by: MrWiggles on May 05, 2015, 04:21:17 am
The question about writing being used in engravings made me wonder, will we also see graffiti on walls of towns and ruins, like the drawings found on walls in Pompeii? If so, might it also be possible for adventurers to make their own graffiti?If its on the books, then chances are, they adventure will be able to do so as well. I dont remember anything about graffiti being a part of the old dev goals. Though it sounds like a reasonable actions, for the entities to take.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on May 05, 2015, 04:21:59 am
I am realy biased but i think its a great addition that we can play now immigrated critters. I realy hope that it actualy could be possible to get a civilized critter population at a site going and not just 4 Tortoise-men recruits and a Legendary Rat-man fighter.
I hope we get some prejudice and such at some point in the future might be interesting to go against [procedural]Stereotypes when my goblin fights his way up out of the ghetto.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 05, 2015, 04:48:59 am
As animal people are playable now can gnomes become playable assuming they've joined the civ?What are gnomes?
Post by: Knight Otu on May 05, 2015, 05:02:16 am
Small humanoids that live in good (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Mountain_gnome) and evil (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Dark_gnome) mountains.As animal people are playable now can gnomes become playable assuming they've joined the civ?What are gnomes?
They can't speak, but neither can plump helmet men, and Toady indicated on Twitter that they do become playable, so presumably the same would happen to gnomes. Whether things stay this way is another question.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 05, 2015, 05:31:37 am
Small humanoids that live in good (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Mountain_gnome) and evil (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Dark_gnome) mountains.As animal people are playable now can gnomes become playable assuming they've joined the civ?What are gnomes?
They can't speak, but neither can plump helmet men, and Toady indicated on Twitter that they do become playable, so presumably the same would happen to gnomes. Whether things stay this way is another question.
Huh. Thanks! Never run into a gnome before. Although I did spot a plump helmet man once.
Post by: Sizik on May 05, 2015, 08:27:09 am
2. Douse yourself in gnomeblight.
3. ???
4. !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Robsoie on May 05, 2015, 08:45:37 am
Currently a civilisation inherit all its ethics values from the entity that spawned it, ethic/values will then never change through the course of that civilisation existence.
But in real world, things change, you have ethics that evolve with the people in power, with the influence of culture/religion or simply with the time etc.
With the philosophers and philosophy going to appear in DF, will we see changes in ethics/value within a civilisation with the moving of time, or the rise in prominence from a specific philosopher (or religious leader) , possibly then leading it to break from its entity and even change the war/peace dynamics with other civilsations that had previously exact same ethics/values (due to spawning from same entity) and so made wars possibly happening between those civilisations while it was previously unlikely
Post by: Eric Blank on May 05, 2015, 10:20:34 am
Post by: Button on May 05, 2015, 10:36:20 am
Post by: LordBaal on May 05, 2015, 11:11:13 am
Will naturalized non-dwarves be possible in migrant waves? In the starting 7? I know we can naturalize visitors to the fortress, I'm just wondering if it'll be possible to get pre-naturalized folks. :)Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the plan is eventually have the 7 come from a real population, then it would be possible (don't see why not). However if I recall right we don't have that yet and the starting 7 are "created from thin air". Starting scenarios should get to that I think.
Post by: Sizik on May 05, 2015, 12:02:09 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 05, 2015, 06:20:29 pm
OH MY GOSH YOU CAN PLAY AS A PLUMP HELMET MAN THIS IS THE BEST UPDATE EVER!!!! I can't wait to do all sorts of stupid plump helmet man things like steal plump helmets from dwarven fortresses and release them back into the wild, or butcher and eat dwarves.Small humanoids that live in good (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Mountain_gnome) and evil (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Dark_gnome) mountains.As animal people are playable now can gnomes become playable assuming they've joined the civ?What are gnomes?
They can't speak, but neither can plump helmet men, and Toady indicated on Twitter that they do become playable, so presumably the same would happen to gnomes. Whether things stay this way is another question.
Post by: Spish on May 05, 2015, 06:28:09 pm
They can't speak, but neither can plump helmet men, and Toady indicated on Twitter that they do become playable, so presumably the same would happen to gnomes. Whether things stay this way is another question.And on that note, how come it's mechanically possible to hold (admittedly one-sided) conversations with babies, but not creatures with the [UTTERANCES] tag? (ie kobolds and modded species)
Granted situations where you can actually speak to kobolds in adventure mode are incredibly rare, but still (modding!). I think it would be pretty funny if you could force prisoners to join you, and order them around while they spit and bark about your mother in their primitive tongue.
Post by: scriver on May 06, 2015, 08:39:52 am
Quote from: devlog
Our first was a red panda man that became an herbalist in a human village for some years before taking up a wandering life as a musician
Does this mean your dwarves (or I guess that would be citizens now that they can integrate) can up and leave your fortress now?
Post by: Knight Otu on May 06, 2015, 09:17:29 am
No, that's just the regular world gen migrations/job changes at work.Quote from: devlogOur first was a red panda man that became an herbalist in a human village for some years before taking up a wandering life as a musician
Does this mean your dwarves (or I guess that would be citizens now that they can integrate) can up and leave your fortress now?
Post by: Scoops Novel on May 06, 2015, 10:20:09 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 06, 2015, 10:37:08 pm
Would be interesting to see an increase in non-lethal fights after a series of bloody hammerings of visitor murders. Or to learn just how much Fun could be had in trying to keep warring factions segregated in a lawless fort.
Post by: Vattic on May 07, 2015, 01:48:44 am
Post by: Mel_Vixen on May 07, 2015, 02:41:59 am
Post by: HartLord on May 07, 2015, 07:09:36 am
A Sparrowman bard ... getting everyone naked. The fandom and its cliches are a constant in every universe *facepalms laughing*
Well, at least he's not the captain of a pirate ship on top of that.
Post by: scriver on May 07, 2015, 07:52:58 am
No, that's just the regular world gen migrations/job changes at work.Quote from: devlogOur first was a red panda man that became an herbalist in a human village for some years before taking up a wandering life as a musician
Does this mean your dwarves (or I guess that would be citizens now that they can integrate) can up and leave your fortress now?
Oh dammit, I assumed it was in Fortress Mode. That's what I get for reading too much into things ;)
Post by: Button on May 07, 2015, 09:28:10 am
Will animal people who join surface entities learn to speak? I ask because the latest dev post implies they might sing songs.
Wild animal people can already speak. Find some in adventure mode sometime :).
Post by: Max™ on May 07, 2015, 11:24:06 am
"Just now I attacked soandso."
"Just now soandso was attacked by someone."
"I hear soandso and soandso were fighting not long ago."
Post by: Pirate Bob on May 07, 2015, 01:16:05 pm
Quote from: devlog 5/6/2015
It's possible we'll have some "neutral territory" behavior in place to curb the fighting if it is too common, but there's also room for the sheriff for crimes that are committed. It'll be lend a little spirit to the fortress, in any case.This sounds amazing - a little crime from the outside would definitely make the fortress more interesting. One concern:
Is it possible that your sheriff enacting justice on visitors who commit crimes could result in retaliation (such as a siege) from the visitors' civilizations?
Post by: Dirst on May 07, 2015, 01:53:56 pm
The consequences of this would be awesome.Quote from: devlog 5/6/2015It's possible we'll have some "neutral territory" behavior in place to curb the fighting if it is too common, but there's also room for the sheriff for crimes that are committed. It'll be lend a little spirit to the fortress, in any case.This sounds amazing - a little crime from the outside would definitely make the fortress more interesting. One concern:
Is it possible that your sheriff enacting justice on visitors who commit crimes could result in retaliation (such as a siege) from the visitors' civilizations?
"It was a trying time, children. One that the fort almost didn't survive. The villainous humans sent siege after siege against us, cutting off our trade for years and felling several of our finest warriors. All over some bellyaching about 'cruel and unusual' punishment. If you ask me, you come to a dwarf fortress and commit a crime, don't have an thin skull 'cuz you know the Hammerer'll be a-comin'!"
The children looked up in unison at the wooden training hammer behind the teacher's lectern. They understood.
Post by: Urist Arrhenius on May 07, 2015, 01:58:30 pm
This would be amazing. And totally realistic.Quote from: devlog 5/6/2015It's possible we'll have some "neutral territory" behavior in place to curb the fighting if it is too common, but there's also room for the sheriff for crimes that are committed. It'll be lend a little spirit to the fortress, in any case.This sounds amazing - a little crime from the outside would definitely make the fortress more interesting. One concern:
Is it possible that your sheriff enacting justice on visitors who commit crimes could result in retaliation (such as a siege) from the visitors' civilizations?
Post by: Vattic on May 07, 2015, 02:46:45 pm
Cheers for answering my question. Not sure how I missed that especially as I remember seeing lizardmen/reptile men lisping.Will animal people who join surface entities learn to speak? I ask because the latest dev post implies they might sing songs.
Wild animal people can already speak. Find some in adventure mode sometime :).
Post by: Rafal99 on May 08, 2015, 03:42:43 am
First bug that comes to my mind is Miners/Woodcutters dropping all their equipment when switched from military to civilian (bug #2143 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2143)) which sounds quite similar to situation mentioned in the devlog, where fortress guests drop all their clothes because they needed new ones for civilian set...
Post by: Lord_lemonpie on May 08, 2015, 03:52:09 pm
I imagine writing those might help with stress and coping with the losses/traumas.
Post by: Streeter on May 08, 2015, 08:53:40 pm
Background: At one point you were working on a 64-bit executable. This would help immensely with my embarks, as I can't start anything larger than 5x5 without freezing/crashing to desktop. A large address aware patch helps tremendously, but it's still a bit of a hack. So, my questions are these...
Edit: Question numero uno has been answered, thank you lethosor. New question ahoy!
Edit2: Lethosor is on a roll!
Edit3: One of these isn't really about future development and more of a "fun fact" type of deal. Crossing it out just in case.
What prevented you from being able to release a 64-bit binary for 40.x? Problems setting up the toolchain? Having to replace certain libraries?- Have you considered pre-patching the game with large address aware as a temporary hold until 64-bit becomes a reality?
- Besides allowing far more RAM allocation, do you know if any of the newer 64-bit instruction sets and registers could help Dwarf Fortress in certain computational tasks? Such as pathing and procedural generation?
- For every person on the forum that asks about multithreading, barging in acting as if concurrency isn't difficult/bug prone/often counter-productive like some kind of magic wand, do you kick a puppy in game?
What would you say is the #1 cause of bugs in your code that you end up finding out through the public bug tracker?Lightning Round Edit: What version of MSVC/Visual Studio are you working with?
Post by: lethosor on May 08, 2015, 09:47:23 pm
Quote from: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146696.msg5888504#msg5888504
Quote from: JapaOn that note, do you have plans of attempting a 64bit build?
Yeah, I did the first attempt on that and it totally failed, since my express MSVC doesn't even support it. If I want to continue using MSVC, I'll have to buy it now I think, or go through some weird process which doesn't work for half of the people. It caused everything to be delayed.
Quote from: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146696.msg5888709#msg5888709
Quote from: MiuramirI was just going to link to Visual Studio Community 2013 myself; it claims to have all the functionality of Visual Studio 2013 Pro, but is free to download and use for individuals and teams of up to 5 developers (plus academic, research, and open-source use). If this doesn't do the job, I'm sure a collection could be arranged to get you the workflow tools you need to move to 64-bit; IMO it's a matter of when, not if.
Money's not the problem. I just need something that works, I didn't have that last time I tried, and I didn't want to risk gumming up progress with new compiler mishaps. I guess once I get this release cleaned up we'll be at the best lull I'm going to find for a while, although I still have no idea how it's going to work.
You didn't used to have to change your computer... if that's true, we'll have to wait a bit longer.
Post by: Streeter on May 08, 2015, 10:07:53 pm
In fact, I think I'll add that to my list of questions. :P
Post by: lethosor on May 08, 2015, 10:19:57 pm
Edit: very little of DFHack would have to be rewritten (mostly the code that deals with vtables, which I believe works with newer gcc versions without problems). As long as it uses the same compiler as DF, nothing should change aside from some possible new compiler errors.
Post by: Streeter on May 08, 2015, 10:32:49 pm
Thanks for the answers. Looks like four of my questions remain, pending anyone else jumps in. :)
Post by: Dirst on May 08, 2015, 11:12:23 pm
That would be a major, major undertaking. No, even major-er than you're thinking.
And coincidentally I am doing !!SCIENCE!! on pets at the moment, but nothing with puppies I'm afraid :)
Post by: Rose on May 08, 2015, 11:29:13 pm
The free 2010 version doesn't support 64bit, but all the newer ones do.
Switching to a newer compiler would also bring some speed increases.
Post by: SimRobert2001 on May 08, 2015, 11:38:03 pm
Post by: Rose on May 08, 2015, 11:43:12 pm
Post by: expwnent on May 09, 2015, 01:06:11 am
Yeah I don't see multithreading helping nearly enough to be worth the problems unless we're talking about vectorizing some upkeep tasks to the GPU (with a fallback for systems without suitable hardware). Things like temperature, lighting, structural integrity for realistic cave-ins, etc. that can survive a one tick delay.
That would be a major, major undertaking. No, even major-er than you're thinking.
GPU programming is much harder than parallel CPU programming. In terms of work effort to value of output it would be better to do CPU parallelism, and even then it would make debugging much harder and Toady is more interested in adding features than optimization.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on May 09, 2015, 01:43:50 am
- 64-bit - a tedious conversion that will take a lot of time for not much gain. Will be needed one day.
- Multithreading - Very complicated, and likely not going to happen. Massive gains. (There was some talk about parellelization being an easy conversion for for-loops, though)
Post by: expwnent on May 09, 2015, 02:11:13 am
Post by: Streeter on May 09, 2015, 02:45:59 am
Post by: lethosor on May 09, 2015, 06:20:49 am
I'd imagine that's true for switching to a newer version of MSVC, but making the jump to GCC wouldn't make all that big a difference? I'm a bit surprised by that! Shows how poor a coder I am. :PDF already uses gcc on Linux and OS X
Thanks for the answers. Looks like four of my questions remain, pending anyone else jumps in. :)
Post by: Alfrodo on May 09, 2015, 09:39:30 am
When do you and Zach think you can grace us with your magnificent update? August? October? 2016?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 09, 2015, 09:51:35 am
To change the topic quickly:
When do you and Zach think you can grace us with your magnificent update? August? October? 2016?
From May report:
Quote
It's technically possible that we could get a Dwarf Fortress release by the end of the month, and I've written everything out on a theoretical daily schedule that would make it, but I suspect bugs, non-DF hassles and other issues will drag it out by a bit. We're doing well though, in terms of not having another giant multi-year wait.
Post by: Alfrodo on May 09, 2015, 10:25:18 am
To change the topic quickly:
When do you and Zach think you can grace us with your magnificent update? August? October? 2016?
From May report:QuoteIt's technically possible that we could get a Dwarf Fortress release by the end of the month, and I've written everything out on a theoretical daily schedule that would make it, but I suspect bugs, non-DF hassles and other issues will drag it out by a bit. We're doing well though, in terms of not having another giant multi-year wait.
...oh, oops.
that soon? wow.
Post by: Greiger on May 09, 2015, 11:35:06 am
(Not that I don't have faith in ya toady :) I would very much like to see it this month)
Post by: Alfrodo on May 09, 2015, 11:41:24 am
Post by: reality.auditor on May 10, 2015, 06:51:49 am
Quote
It's possible we'll have some "neutral territory" behavior in place to curb the fighting if it is too common,If Toady already encountered it during testing, it is almost certainly too common.
Post by: Witty on May 10, 2015, 11:07:42 am
Post by: Dirst on May 10, 2015, 07:51:45 pm
How much is lag an issue when you're testing features/debugging? Do you have methods or debug tools that circumvent it?Sort of like that famous Dismember Button? :)
I suspect the test sessions are spoiling out reams of debugging data to virtually guarantee bad FPS. But I am interested in how Toady handles this as well, maybe turning off some of the background stuff until the foreground stuff is less-than-certain to crash the game.
Post by: Button on May 11, 2015, 10:48:27 am
Sort of like that famous Dismember Button? :)
:o
Post by: Max™ on May 11, 2015, 02:21:39 pm
Oh wait, I just noticed your name... damnit all.
Post by: Spish on May 11, 2015, 08:08:28 pm
And to rephrase my previous question, are kobolds getting their own combat/fort mode dialogue anytime soon? Those guys seem awfully quiet compared to everyone else.
Post by: Urist Arrhenius on May 11, 2015, 08:38:46 pm
Post by: Max™ on May 11, 2015, 09:12:42 pm
Incidentally, a discussion in the adventurer board reminded me of something I've meant to ask before but never remembered.
Is the "cause trouble for [insert group]" quest/assignment broken? If not is there a certain less obvious trigger for completion? I've heard and tried fistfights, I've tried maiming various members of said group in sight of other members, I've tried exterminating entire cities save a couple of survivors who I regaled with the tales of my murderspree, and numerous other permutations of this to no avail, I return to the guard captain/lord/lady/etc and give an update, they give a canned response, and it never shows as completed in the log.
Post by: Spish on May 11, 2015, 09:58:41 pm
Kobolds have utterances so they won't be very useful to talk to.They did, at one point, yell at the player in an amusing non-language during adventure mode. Love the small details like that, don't see why it can't also extend to fortress mode.
Post by: DG on May 12, 2015, 01:24:47 am
Post by: Zarathustra30 on May 12, 2015, 03:20:15 am
Are migrants still a thing, or are they completely replaced by visitors?
Are there separate population caps for visitors and citizens?
Why do visitors come? (At the moment. I know it will radically change with start scenarios)
Why do visitors leave? Do they depart on a timer, when their needs are satisfied, random chance, etc?
Just how "citizeny" are visitors? Do they follow traffic designations? Do they trigger traps? Can we assign them labor? Can the military kill them? etc.
Thank you for your time. I cannot wait for the next release!
Post by: Glanzor on May 12, 2015, 04:44:29 am
What about refugees from wars and such?
They would seem like the most logical example for something like that but are not mentioned in the recent dev log.
Post by: Cruxador on May 12, 2015, 05:39:39 am
Are migrants still a thing, or are they completely replaced by visitors?Altering the migration system is part of the start scenario. ("Drastic changes to migrants based on starting scenario" and "Ability to trade/demand food in depot or similar place with surrounding dwarves") meaning this will be dealt with again soon. As this is a near future goal, it's unlikely that bulk migration of dwarves as a normal thing rather than an exception is being handled now. Thus, we can presume that the current migration events remain unchanged for now.
Post by: Kogan Loloklam on May 12, 2015, 08:02:08 am
It's rare, but I can think of a few times I wished to have a paticular monster eliminated. Mayors and such ask all the time, it'd be nice if we could specify a will of the fortress quest.
If so...
In the next release or two can we set adventurers out after offsite creatures that annoyed us? And will we be able to track rumors we heard about it via a quest management screen or something?"
I'm actually kind of geeking out about that last one. The fortress of Nimemonol is locked down tight. The last assault of Tomusil the Deprivation of Cavities was a high cost. Then the Caravan arrives, telling a rumor that the Human adventurer you asked to slay the foul beast, Pundik Paddlebrook, succeeded. You celebrate. The gate are opened. A festival begins! Children laugh and play in the streets! The inn breaks out the good wine! You are elated! ... And then the beast returns. The adventure you asked to take care of the dragon lied. The dragon ravages your marketplace. Dwarves die in droves.
The survivors pickup the pieces. The beast demanded a high price. Every Granite 5 you have to send a cow and 4000 gold coins. A goblin adventurer comes by your decimated populace. He asks if you have any tasks. A new quest tab is added to your quest screen. "Slay Pundik Paddlebrook. Given to Streras Gobsnot on 8 Slate, year 126."
I know that most the items in scenario are some ways off, but I think it's coming. I'm just interested in our interaction with adventurers right now in the current release plans. Or in the next release plans.
Darnit. Okay. One more... (which was anseered by MrWiggles below)
Wine quality and aging and options to "break out the good wine" for a festival in the near future?
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 12, 2015, 09:43:05 am
In the next release or two can we set adventurers out after offsite creatures that annoyed us? And will we be able to track rumors we heard about it via a quest management screen or something?"
This one is good.
"Oh brave adventurer, you've killed the terrible hill giant that was terrorizing this land and earned eternal gratitude of our fortress. Here, take this artifact pomelo wood bucket, you totally earned it."
Post by: Max™ on May 12, 2015, 10:00:23 am
"We fled from somesite after the army of soandso descended upon it, none of us are brave enough or capable of doing so, but you would have our eternal gratitude if you would aid our cause." Then while talking to random mercs and such "heading to soandso looking for work" you could add an option "join me to help end the siege at somesite by turning back the army of soandso" with additional modifiers to group size based on the familiarity/relations to the site even.
I love this game
Post by: Kogan Loloklam on May 12, 2015, 11:42:39 am
Post by: Max™ on May 12, 2015, 11:48:28 am
Post by: timotheos on May 12, 2015, 12:04:25 pm
If not now how about later when book learning and/or apprenticeships get added?
Also how would animal men visitors and citizens react to a zoo full of their dumb cousins?
These taverns are sounding better and better, so many more groups to be cruel too. With so many more possibilities.
Post by: thvaz on May 12, 2015, 12:12:14 pm
And what about traders? As the caravans bring an entourage of soldiers and merchants, won't they be another kind of visitors (renting rooms and going to parties at the inn)?
Post by: Button on May 12, 2015, 12:14:29 pm
Also how would animal men visitors and citizens react to a zoo full of their dumb cousins?
I doubt they'd have too much of a reaction. IRL humans don't get too bent out of shape at seeing apes in zoos.
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 12, 2015, 12:21:26 pm
Also how would animal men visitors and citizens react to a zoo full of their dumb cousins?
I doubt they'd have too much of a reaction. IRL humans don't get too bent out of shape at seeing apes in zoos.
They could even prefer their own cousins. "Look son, a giraffe. This is how we all used to look like..."
Post by: Rose on May 12, 2015, 12:34:36 pm
With non-dwarf visitors being able to join the fort as citizens will we be able to make clothes & armour of the correct size? ie. large items for humans and XXL for hippomen?
If not now how about later when book learning and/or apprenticeships get added?
Also how would animal men visitors and citizens react to a zoo full of their dumb cousins?
These taverns are sounding better and better, so many more groups to be cruel too. With so many more possibilities.
I would imagine being able to make clothes outside your size could depend on skill.
So you have a hippo-man clothier that eventually learns to make dwarf sized clothing.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on May 12, 2015, 01:37:19 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on May 12, 2015, 02:11:08 pm
Wine quality and aging and options to "break out the good wine" for a festival in the near future?This has defiantly talked about. Not only about adding quality to booze, but also to expand booze making mechanically. Like having booze need water. I believe this was generally talked about in the cooking redux. Which can totally be in the near future, as cooking is closely tied tavern and inns, right?
Do you envision spies or other such traitors coming to the fortress later on?If there are spies in World Gen, then eventually they'll be spies in Adventure Mode and Fortress Mode.
Post by: TBCoW on May 12, 2015, 02:19:25 pm
Now that they can join various sites, can an adventurer recruit one not from the site but a 'wild' one? If so, how would other followers react - would they attack them as they are treated as wild animals or would they let them live?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 12, 2015, 10:12:21 pm
Imagines glorious loyalty cascade...
Post by: Dirst on May 13, 2015, 12:16:32 am
What happens if your civ goes to war while your inn is full of visitors from your new enemy's civ? Are there any mechanics to let you know, or will the visitors just turn hostile one day without notice? Would going to war effect the reactions of short-term and long-term visitors in the same way? How will friends of visitors react?We have always been at war with East Asia.
Imagines glorious loyalty cascade...
Post by: Ianflow on May 13, 2015, 02:03:18 am
thus
1. Is there any chance of a job/position labelled "government clerk", to free up the mayor's time? Between meeting with liasons (possibly once a season, and even 1 meeting can take over a season), consoling citizens (a la camp counselor) and now approving long term guests or new citizenship requests, is there a chance to free up the mayor's time?
2. Additionally, will how dorfs vote be changing in the near future? Currently they work by voting for the dorf they'd enjoy drinking best with, but will we be seeing a change to vote by merit? Dorfs who have the patience, kindness, etc to do so, more than just being able to talk about what goods we want to order from the company catalog
Additionally I want to ask along the lines of Research
1. Will we be likely to see that research affects the way Dorfs do things? For example with Dorf Chemistry, the boiling of water might (with research unlocked) be used for the distillation of water for use in hospitals, or for the purification of wells. Or in general, would dwarves be able to research ways to clean certain particles (FB dust, spit, blood, etc) from surfaces in ways that would prevent contamination?
2. Are we likely to see art forms and intellectual concepts die off? More than the library of alexandria analogy that was proposed, will we see concepts die off the way that Latin as a language died off? (only practiced in scholastic sense and such)
And lastly (I know I ask a lot of questions, sorry!)
1. With multi-racial and potentially multi-cultural forts, are interracial marriage and adoption on the tables for next release?
Post by: reality.auditor on May 13, 2015, 07:52:02 am
Post by: Dwarfu on May 13, 2015, 08:26:21 am
Post by: Dwarfu on May 13, 2015, 09:01:49 am
1. Is there any chance of a job/position labelled "government clerk", to free up the mayor's time?
New positions or mayoral changes aren't slated fort his release, and haven't been mentioned for the near future. You can currently mod your own positions and split out the mayoral duties if you wish.
2. Additionally, will how dorfs vote be changing in the near future?
Again, no slated changes to the voting functionality has been slated or mentioned for the near future.
1. Will we be likely to see that research affects the way Dorfs do things?
This has been mentioned as an eventuality with knowledge discoveries affecting workshops and skills. But it isn't on the table for this release.
2. Are we likely to see art forms and intellectual concepts die off?
Not sure here, as it seems there is a possibility to have all knowledge holders of a given form killed, though there may be books, etc. with the knowledge in them.
1. With multi-racial and potentially multi-cultural forts, are interracial marriage and adoption on the tables for next release?
No.
Post by: Dwarfu on May 13, 2015, 09:05:01 am
About animal people.
Now that they can join various sites, can an adventurer recruit one not from the site but a 'wild' one?
The functionality of playing/recruiting them was mentioned only in regards to the ones that went through the act of civilization and joined a civ.
Post by: arkhometha on May 13, 2015, 09:09:24 am
Post by: Glanzor on May 13, 2015, 10:04:52 am
About animal people.That is already possible. I do that every time I play as an elf.
Now that they can join various sites, can an adventurer recruit one not from the site but a 'wild' one? If so, how would other followers react - would they attack them as they are treated as wild animals or would they let them live?
In earlier versions non-elven non-animal man followers would attack them but I think they stopped doing that with the last major update.
Post by: Max™ on May 13, 2015, 07:59:31 pm
With musical instruments being used now, are we going to see other non musical related use of "musical" instruments? Like invaders sounding horns to attack or bells being used to wake up the militia soldiers that are sleeping? Or is this behavior part of the army arc?First thing that came to mind:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Naturally I will be testing to see if there are any early bugged instruments that turn out to be skull-splattering doomtoys under certain conditions.
Post by: Admiral Obvious on May 14, 2015, 12:52:13 am
I'm not exactly sure what the exchange rate would be, like 1 golden coin for 10k elven bark currency notes? If this is even how it's going to work.
I can just see a possible expansion of the use of currency in this next update as a likely next step. Money for furniture/weapons/food/beer/bounties and whatnot.
Post by: Dwarfu on May 14, 2015, 02:11:28 am
If the monster hunters are successful in their endeavors during their stay in your fortress, will they make their own trinkets from their kills as they do offsite?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 14, 2015, 02:50:43 am
I think designing notorious trap/vampire/zombie/yak filled labyrinths to send the world's best adventurers into could be tremendous fun. And betting on the outcome! Then if no-one survives, retire and take it on yourself. :)
Post by: MrWiggles on May 14, 2015, 05:23:22 am
With musical instruments being used now, are we going to see other non musical related use of "musical" instruments? Like invaders sounding horns to attack or bells being used to wake up the militia soldiers that are sleeping? Or is this behavior part of the army arc?I predict ToadyOne will answer question as follows: "Sounds reasonable. No timeline."
There was this aspect related to combat, with squads keeping formations. That all had to be cut during the last long dev cycle or the one before that. Horns and things in armies back in the olden days were used a lot for signaling changes. So whenever ToadyOne and ThreeToes revisit that topic, is probably when this'll become pertinent again.
You mentioned inns will attract visitors due to their reputations sometime back. Would the caverns also attract adventurers due to reputation (monsters found, previous adventurers killed, wealth uncovered, or something?).He already stated in the Dev Log that adventures will travel to the Fort and ask permission to slay a beast inside a residing cave. If the adventures aren't currently using that in game rumor to decide where to travel to, then its more then like an eventual plan for them to use that information.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 14, 2015, 06:22:05 am
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 14, 2015, 05:10:42 pm
Since visitors will be visiting local "establishments", will minting currency have a greater purpose than just to be used as an export item?I believe Toady's said that the main point of running taverns is currently for fun, and people visiting the tavern won't actually be paying for anything. Though, I guess past fun now that adventurers can visit your tavern it could be a source of non-dwarven soldiers which has practical uses.
I'm not exactly sure what the exchange rate would be, like 1 golden coin for 10k elven bark currency notes? If this is even how it's going to work.
I can just see a possible expansion of the use of currency in this next update as a likely next step. Money for furniture/weapons/food/beer/bounties and whatnot.
Post by: Max™ on May 14, 2015, 05:35:35 pm
Then later I can use a !!lute!! for it!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Robsoie on May 14, 2015, 05:44:45 pm
I believe Toady's said that the main point of running taverns is currently for fun, and people visiting the tavern won't actually be paying for anything. Though, I guess past fun now that adventurers can visit your tavern it could be a source of non-dwarven soldiers which has practical uses.I can imagine setting up a tavern in the exterior of a fortress in an evil region would be certainly very fun with various undead animals showing up, dead tavern visitor raising regularly into undeath and new visitor to fight, without mentionning some evil clouds moving around the tavern for more husk-ification hilarity.
That lead me to ask
Will visitors decide to never put a foot anymore into a tavern when the death toll start to increase ?
I imagine it must not be very tempting to travel all the way to a backward tavern famous for the myriads of corpses lying around it and your fellow tavern goers murdered horribly by husks and undead giant sperm whales jumping around.
Post by: Admiral Obvious on May 14, 2015, 06:21:52 pm
Since visitors will be visiting local "establishments", will minting currency have a greater purpose than just to be used as an export item?I believe Toady's said that the main point of running taverns is currently for fun, and people visiting the tavern won't actually be paying for anything. Though, I guess past fun now that adventurers can visit your tavern it could be a source of non-dwarven soldiers which has practical uses.
I'm not exactly sure what the exchange rate would be, like 1 golden coin for 10k elven bark currency notes? If this is even how it's going to work.
I can just see a possible expansion of the use of currency in this next update as a likely next step. Money for furniture/weapons/food/beer/bounties and whatnot.
I knew that, I just was wondering what could possibly happen in the future. If I were a tavern keeper, I wouldn't keep serving freeloaders. I know it takes time to implement though.
Post by: DG on May 14, 2015, 07:38:03 pm
Post by: Ianflow on May 14, 2015, 08:38:17 pm
Post by: LordBaal on May 15, 2015, 07:38:24 am
(http://www.infendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/guitaraxe-495x274.jpg)
Post by: King Mir on May 15, 2015, 06:41:14 pm
Music, a very important part of Dwarf culture.It's a real Chillaxe!
(http://www.infendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/guitaraxe-495x274.jpg)
Post by: Amperzand on May 15, 2015, 09:44:26 pm
Post by: Thursday Postal on May 15, 2015, 10:59:17 pm
Will elves and humans get vitamin D deficiency from being underground too long? Will carnivorous animal people get sick from eating only plump helmets?
Post by: SimRobert2001 on May 16, 2015, 01:16:00 am
Will there be any 'compatability' problems for multispecies forts other than culture?Todays hint seems that yes, there will be compatability problems for creatures that have ethics different than your own. Probably in a way a dwarf can walk past a creature in a cage, and get a bad/good thought from It.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on May 16, 2015, 02:40:05 am
Will there be any 'compatability' problems for multispecies forts other than culture?
Will elves and humans get vitamin D deficiency from being underground too long? Will carnivorous animal people get sick from eating only plump helmets?
While Vitamin D isnt modelled there could always be a thought similar to the one dorfs have for being aboveground, same goes for food. None of these were mentioned/confirmed yet as far as i remember.
Food poisoning and food related effects arent in yet but can be added by modding with syndromes, creating a "carnivore"-critterclass and adding a related syndrome to all plants should do the trick. The syndrome framework was created with these things in mind.
Another problem that i potentially can see is that dwarfs get bad thoughts or develop negative reactions to
Post by: Putnam on May 16, 2015, 02:47:43 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 16, 2015, 04:24:35 am
Post by: Knight Otu on May 16, 2015, 05:14:37 am
does the changes about ethics mean that adopted humans can now do high boots at our dwarven workshops?I don't really see where ethics and high boots connect. Anyway, until the knowledge system expands to more things, it's most likely that the non-dwarf citizens that work for you can only do what your civilization can, even if their birth civ can't. So if your civilization has no ability to craft high boots, you likely won't be able to hire outsiders to do it for you amd/or steal their secret techniques of high boot crafting.
Post by: Nibblewerfer on May 16, 2015, 08:40:22 am
Post by: MrWiggles on May 16, 2015, 02:05:03 pm
With the ability for jobs like butchering to affect the creature based on its ethics will elves be able to butcher a sentient corpse if given the task if they are a member of your fortress or will they attempt not to offend the dwarves?There has been no talk about fortress entities refusing to do labors they have set. So probably not.
Post by: Souleater17 on May 16, 2015, 03:00:41 pm
Post by: arkhometha on May 16, 2015, 04:01:25 pm
With the ability for jobs like butchering to affect the creature based on its ethics will elves be able to butcher a sentient corpse if given the task if they are a member of your fortress or will they attempt not to offend the dwarves?Questions are supposed to be in green.
Post by: MrWiggles on May 16, 2015, 08:48:21 pm
With the ability for jobs like butchering to affect the creature based on its ethics will elves be able to butcher a sentient corpse if given the task if they are a member of your fortress or will they attempt not to offend the dwarves?
There has been no talk about fortress entities refusing to do labors they have set. So probably not.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 16, 2015, 11:19:52 pm
You just answered this a second time and the question still isn't anything to do with refusing labors...With the ability for jobs like butchering to affect the creature based on its ethics will elves be able to butcher a sentient corpse if given the task if they are a member of your fortress or will they attempt not to offend the dwarves?
There has been no talk about fortress entities refusing to do labors they have set. So probably not.
Post by: DVNO on May 17, 2015, 01:29:27 am
With the ability for jobs like butchering to affect the creature based on its ethics will elves be able to butcher a sentient corpse if given the task if they are a member of your fortress or will they attempt not to offend the dwarves?
the magic 8-ball points to yes, as they keep their ethics. If you slap [CIV_PLAYABLE] under the elf civ and start a fort with them they have no problem butchering sentients right? The code is there already.
Toady mentioned that just because a human can forge iron high boots, your fort can't just start teaching the secrets of high boot production. But i think the difference for this case is that [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:ACCEPTABLE] is a core ethic where forging with specific reagents is it's own system, with it's own separate tags.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 17, 2015, 03:04:09 am
Mind you butchering seems to work in a different order to other workshop jobs, so perhaps I'm mistaken.
Looking forward to "Horrified at being served a Goblin roast. x20"
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 17, 2015, 03:12:09 am
Though if non-dwarven residents can still use their original ethics, then it may be possible for them to butcher, though I wouldn't know for certain. It may rely on the base-civilization's ethics, which may prevent the butchering of sapients entirely.
It's something to look forward to discovering, at the least.
Post by: Rockphed on May 17, 2015, 10:57:18 am
According to the devlog, it is just the work satisfaction thought that is affected at the moment. So elves may be depressed or angered by chopping trees, for example.
Though if non-dwarven residents can still use their original ethics, then it may be possible for them to butcher, though I wouldn't know for certain. It may rely on the base-civilization's ethics, which may prevent the butchering of sapients entirely.
It's something to look forward to discovering, at the least.
I imagine that civ-playable elven retreats will have horrified dwarven butchers butchering dwarven invader corpses rather than dwarven fortresses being inundated with goblin meat butchered by their elven immigrants.
Post by: LordBaal on May 17, 2015, 11:22:53 am
Quote from: Toady
We trust you'll respect this new situation in your labor settings.Yeah.. yeah, sure, yeah... sure.
(http://www.gabicus-rex.com/images/pics/evil-smiley-face.jpg)
Post by: Kogan Loloklam on May 17, 2015, 11:49:42 am
Post by: endlessblaze on May 17, 2015, 11:54:07 am
Put them in your military, give them metal gear, and watch the goblin guts fly.
Post by: Rose on May 17, 2015, 01:10:07 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on May 18, 2015, 02:59:55 am
SNAAAAAAAKE!!!!!!
*cant resist* Badger badger badger ...
Post by: DVNO on May 18, 2015, 09:04:52 am
I wonder if this stuff also plays out in Adventure mode when Human civs get random/procedural ethics. Would be damn funny if a Butcher from a Civ A that cant butcher pigs or somesuch works for Civ B, has enough of this shit and start throwing slicing knives. More diverse ethics would be cool for such cases and/or religion relate ethics.
procedural/random ethics? I hope civ ethics can be turned static or variable on a per ethic level in the raws, I usually like to modify my games so no matter how different the cultures of DF are, they can all agree on one thing: baby-snatching and slavery are A-OK.
(It's a great way to get multi-racial factions in world-gen don't judge me)
Post by: Putnam on May 18, 2015, 12:49:52 pm
Also, baby snatching ain't an ethic.
Post by: Knight Otu on May 18, 2015, 01:01:07 pm
Also, the standard migration from LIKES_SITE/TOLERATES_SITE is already doing a lot for creating multi-racial sites in world gen without need for slavery and kidnapping.
Post by: DVNO on May 18, 2015, 01:05:07 pm
There is literally no way the random ethics can work except having it in the raws, since humans are the only ones who actually get the randomness.
Also, baby snatching ain't an ethic.
This is what I mean:
I hope it can be set like
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:VARIABLE]
((ect))
Instead of an all encompassing tag like [ETHICS_VARIABLE] or something
Post by: Admiral Obvious on May 18, 2015, 06:00:16 pm
Each entity would need to be able to store a separate post randomized variable, which now that I think about it isn't that hard, you'd just need to add a whole extra line (or more) of code to tell the game to keep the set variable.
Post by: Max™ on May 18, 2015, 06:47:42 pm
I'd like to note that it's the values that'll be randomized for humans in the next release. Those are distinct from the ethics. (And I don't think we know for sure if it's one tag for randomizing all values, or a per-value tag that allows mixing fixed and random values) .Yup, simply removing likes site from dark fortresses for gobs gives the dual effect that the populations don't spike into the 10k range, making them far more pleasant to explore as an adventurer, and it encourages them to integrate more widely into the world, leading to lots of interesting multi-racial communities.
Also, the standard migration from LIKES_SITE/TOLERATES_SITE is already doing a lot for creating multi-racial sites in world gen without need for slavery and kidnapping.
Post by: DVNO on May 18, 2015, 06:53:11 pm
Post by: Dirst on May 18, 2015, 08:41:50 pm
[ETHIC:OATHBREAKING:PUNISH_REPRIMAND-ISH]There is literally no way the random ethics can work except having it in the raws, since humans are the only ones who actually get the randomness.
Also, baby snatching ain't an ethic.
This is what I mean:
I hope it can be set like
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:VARIABLE]
((ect))
Instead of an all encompassing tag like [ETHICS_VARIABLE] or something
Post by: Max™ on May 18, 2015, 09:52:56 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 18, 2015, 10:13:39 pm
Scribes will make copies of your codices, then...take the copies off to other fortresses, returning with new ones next Spring? Sell them to merchants? While scholars will stay put and study the works? Or go find new ones to study? Or pay adventurers to visit the local tower library and bring back a rare copy of The Dwarf - My Biggest Mistake...?
Post by: TheNewerMartianEmperor on May 18, 2015, 11:37:47 pm
Post by: jason0320 on May 19, 2015, 12:34:25 am
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 19, 2015, 11:00:18 am
Well, setting the tag to variable, if set to be variable, each time it's read would mean that the ethic could change every time the game is started, or any time the variable is read. It's unlikely that keeping the variable... on variable would work, because that means that the entity will have what I can call "severe mood swings" based on their ethics. May be a good thing, but probably not.Civilization ethics currently can't be changed in an ongoing game so setting them to variable would randomize it for the one time that it's supposed to be randomized, then any further randomization would be ignored because the civilization already exists and ignores any changes to the entity raws. Or Toady could just code it to randomize once at the generation of each civilization to make sure nothing crazy happens, which would probably be quite easy.
Each entity would need to be able to store a separate post randomized variable, which now that I think about it isn't that hard, you'd just need to add a whole extra line (or more) of code to tell the game to keep the set variable.
Post by: DG on May 19, 2015, 09:30:15 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on May 20, 2015, 02:59:01 am
Since visitors will be visiting local "establishments", will minting currency have a greater purpose than just to be used as an export item?
I'm not exactly sure what the exchange rate would be, like 1 golden coin for 10k elven bark currency notes? If this is even how it's going to work.
I can just see a possible expansion of the use of currency in this next update as a likely next step. Money for furniture/weapons/food/beer/bounties and whatnot.
What's the the mechanic of tree growing?Coloured for legibility
Post by: Knight Otu on May 20, 2015, 11:47:37 am
Does the new scholar occupation system mean that the old Philosopher Noble position is returning?No, it reconfirms that the noble position is deader than dodos, to be replaced by occupations of a philosophical bent like the scholar. A singular noble named Philosopher per civilization won't happen. Maybe a court philosopher or the like.
Post by: Spish on May 20, 2015, 12:00:16 pm
Or better yet, the blood of their enemies?
Post by: Max™ on May 20, 2015, 02:39:17 pm
Post by: Amperzand on May 20, 2015, 07:43:42 pm
Will citizens who secretly murdered other citizens attempt to hide the corpses? And how would that affect the investigation?
Post by: LordBaal on May 21, 2015, 07:27:34 am
Post by: Amperzand on May 21, 2015, 03:53:51 pm
Post by: Max™ on May 21, 2015, 06:57:24 pm
Pffthahahahahaha
Post by: Amperzand on May 21, 2015, 07:12:09 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on May 21, 2015, 09:20:37 pm
Is that comic lifted from somewhere, or did you do that yourself? 'Cause if that's from somewhere link me, and if you did it, good job.
The comics sauce as far as google can tell is the user Coldspiral from devianart (http://coldspiral.deviantart.com/art/CSI-Usaniseth-155119395) .
Post by: Amperzand on May 21, 2015, 09:28:24 pm
Post by: LordBaal on May 22, 2015, 01:27:04 am
Post by: Amperzand on May 22, 2015, 03:06:45 pm
Since we're getting rather off-topic;
How much love will Adventure Mode be getting in the coming updates?
Post by: falcc on May 22, 2015, 03:20:42 pm
Post by: Putnam on May 22, 2015, 03:25:04 pm
Will goblins eat and drink when they visit your fort? Will they need to eat and drink as citizens? Do you plan to have any measures put into place to discourage extensive fort gobbification if they don't need sustanence?
No and no. They do not need to eat or drink.
Post by: LordBaal on May 22, 2015, 03:42:19 pm
Post by: Putnam on May 22, 2015, 03:53:39 pm
Post by: LordBaal on May 22, 2015, 03:56:51 pm
(http://www.webconnoisseur.com/images/comicbooksimpson.png)
:P Really, just personal tastes I guess. And a less gamey gameplay I think.
Post by: Man In Zero G on May 22, 2015, 05:03:48 pm
But they don't strictly need to. They won't die or anything if they don't.
However, they're probably not going to because of coding. But they should have the option to.
Post by: LordBaal on May 23, 2015, 11:07:36 am
I didn't knew they can't eat. I always remove the no-eat/drink/sleep from their raws, so far the thrive just as fine but didn't know they where incapable of it.
Post by: Witty on May 23, 2015, 11:24:05 am
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 23, 2015, 01:58:27 pm
Post by: Dirst on May 23, 2015, 08:15:56 pm
Post by: Max™ on May 23, 2015, 09:45:53 pm
Post by: Spish on May 23, 2015, 10:03:47 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on May 24, 2015, 03:20:24 am
Post by: MrWiggles on May 24, 2015, 10:19:11 pm
I can see food being to goblins as booze is to dwarves. In so far as they don't really need it, but can become rather violent without it.Except that dorfs need booze. They become physically and mentally unhappy without it. Whereas gobos never need to eat.
Post by: Putnam on May 24, 2015, 10:55:57 pm
Post by: Amperzand on May 25, 2015, 03:30:42 pm
Because I think it'd be more interesting to need to treat your wounds properly and wait a reasonable time for them to heal fully, rather than sleep being like Wolverine.
Post by: Ariachus on May 25, 2015, 03:57:52 pm
Post by: Putnam on May 25, 2015, 04:09:11 pm
Post by: Max™ on May 26, 2015, 04:00:36 am
Post by: PFunk on May 26, 2015, 09:00:03 pm
Post by: Alfrodo on May 26, 2015, 09:14:14 pm
I had a thought with respect to text engraving. Could it be a feature one day that noble mandates could be directed by the nobles or the manager to be engraved on slabs and placed in communal areas as was often done with ancient laws? These could then be removed as they deprecate and placed in the garbage, or preserved in the library, or taken into annals by scholars, found by adventurers visiting ruins, as well as vandalized by dwarves who don't like the 'laws' and thus could be punished for it?
A suggestion, thinly disguised as a question. But a very good suggestion nonetheless.
Post by: Ariachus on May 27, 2015, 12:36:22 am
Post by: Putnam on May 27, 2015, 12:47:15 am
Post by: DG on May 27, 2015, 03:31:38 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on May 27, 2015, 04:23:57 am
I had a thought with respect to text engraving. Could it be a feature one day that noble mandates could be directed by the nobles or the manager to be engraved on slabs and placed in communal areas as was often done with ancient laws? These could then be removed as they deprecate and placed in the garbage, or preserved in the library, or taken into annals by scholars, found by adventurers visiting ruins, as well as vandalized by dwarves who don't like the 'laws' and thus could be punished for it?
AGH MY EYES
Post by: Max™ on May 27, 2015, 04:08:45 pm
Adventurer cosmetic rerolls are great. Any implementation of rerolling options is great in my book. Probably a long time until I get the ones I want in world gen though.I'm super psyched over the fun and silly bugs that will no doubt emerge from "more lively inns and taverns", but yes, the ability to see the appearance and personality and such beforehand... heck to have a personality at all, that's pretty cool news.
That and the possibility of assuming the role of a historical figure have me all giddy.
Post by: xaritscin on May 27, 2015, 04:16:33 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 27, 2015, 09:39:40 pm
now that we have libraries and all that stuff, wouldnt be the time to implement a way to craft foreign weapons? maybe trade tomes with other civilizations or have dorfs discover how to do it through experimentation. i dunno, it would be a good addition to the system..Toady said knowledge won't effect actual fortress workshops in the initial release, but yeah that seems to be one of the eventual goals for this arc.
Post by: DG on May 28, 2015, 12:21:34 am
heck to have a personality at all, that's pretty cool news.
Something like this should cover most of us.
Choose your personality:
Default Adeventurer (psychopathy)
Other
Post by: Eric Blank on May 28, 2015, 12:46:01 am
It also seems interesting to play the neediest possible adventurer, as a challenge.
Post by: Amperzand on May 28, 2015, 02:20:11 am
heck to have a personality at all, that's pretty cool news.
Something like this should cover most of us.
Choose your personality:
Default Adeventurer (psychopathy)
Other
I certainly use such worthless stats as Empathy and its like for free points.
Post by: Max™ on May 28, 2015, 02:31:08 am
....
Post by: DG on May 28, 2015, 04:01:58 am
Post by: Amperzand on May 28, 2015, 04:55:34 pm
Post by: cybergon on May 28, 2015, 10:46:16 pm
Post by: DG on May 28, 2015, 11:01:14 pm
Most "Will there ever" DF questions can be loosely answered with a "Yes" except where it conflicts with Toady's thematic scheme or is judged too gamey. Of course, continued and persuasive argument can change anyone's mind.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on May 28, 2015, 11:05:19 pm
Will there ever be a way in adventure mode to cheat death? Not like vampires or undead, I'm talking something more like the bottled fairies from zelda or transfering your spirit to other people or things like in yugioh, you know what I'm saying?
You are a few versions to late for this. Bodysurfing (transfering your mind to a new body) was in after toady seperated the Mind frrom the body, you had to sleep in the right spot in adv. to activate that but then you could end up in cavern creatures and somesuch. Good times but it was a Bug and since fixed. That being said with the current Body/mind separation and association systems in place you it is possible in the future.
Iirc. in the forum for stories there was one guy/gal that used DF hack to summon the minds of Gods down into peasants so it cant be to far of coding vise. As always though no timetable.
Instaheals are possible with Modding. People noticed that wounds arent carried over in transformations and used that for Instaheals. In essence you would need a potion that transforms you into a fluffy wambler (and back) for 1 Tick which gives you a fully healed body.
Post by: cybergon on May 28, 2015, 11:38:54 pm
You are a few versions to late for this. Bodysurfing (transfering your mind to a new body) was in after toady seperated the Mind frrom the body, you had to sleep in the right spot in adv. to activate that but then you could end up in cavern creatures and somesuch. Good times but it was a Bug and since fixed. That being said with the current Body/mind separation and association systems in place you it is possible in the future.
Iirc. in the forum for stories there was one guy/gal that used DF hack to summon the minds of Gods down into peasants so it cant be to far of coding vise. As always though no timetable.
Instaheals are possible with Modding. People noticed that wounds arent carried over in transformations and used that for Instaheals. In essence you would need a potion that transforms you into a fluffy wambler (and back) for 1 Tick which gives you a fully healed body.
I know it's possible, what I'm asking is if there's ever going to be an actual mechanic in-game that allows us to cheat death, like gaining the favor of a god or a trinket that rewinds time, it doesn't matter since I'm not asking for specifics anyway. I'm asking if it's something Toady plans to or wants to add to the game in some way or another.
Post by: LordBaal on May 29, 2015, 10:02:03 am
Post by: TBCoW on May 30, 2015, 10:52:43 am
When a creature joins your fort and isn't assimilated yet and then happens to get a mood, does it create an artifact a dwarf would make or does it make an artifact related to items of former civilization this creature belonged to?
Post by: King Mir on May 30, 2015, 02:42:08 pm
One thing came to my mind when i was reading changelog about assimilating:More likely the would simply be ineligible for moods.
When a creature joins your fort and isn't assimilated yet and then happens to get a mood, does it create an artifact a dwarf would make or does it make an artifact related to items of former civilization this creature belonged to?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 30, 2015, 07:04:14 pm
Strange moods can make an item of any type, regardless of whether the civilization can make it. Bowyers might make a completely useless artifact blowgun, or a weaponsmith could make a maul which dwarves can't even wield. Some mods have even added in weapons that no civilizations have access to as special secret artifact weapons. I think they might be more likely to make an item they can normally make, as I can't recall seeing any non-dwarf weapons in vanilla, but I haven't had many artifact weapons either.One thing came to my mind when i was reading changelog about assimilating:More likely the would simply be ineligible for moods.
When a creature joins your fort and isn't assimilated yet and then happens to get a mood, does it create an artifact a dwarf would make or does it make an artifact related to items of former civilization this creature belonged to?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2015, 07:07:21 pm
Are special dwarven martial arts done by secret dwarven monks in secret underground lairs going to be a thing?
Post by: Max™ on May 30, 2015, 10:35:41 pm
Strange moods can make an item of any type, regardless of whether the civilization can make it. Bowyers might make a completely useless artifact blowgun, or a weaponsmith could make a maul which dwarves can't even wield. Some mods have even added in weapons that no civilizations have access to as special secret artifact weapons. I think they might be more likely to make an item they can normally make, as I can't recall seeing any non-dwarf weapons in vanilla, but I haven't had many artifact weapons either.They just aren't eligible at all, I've done a lot of research on artifacts and such, the usual methods for forcing a mood just don't work on races outside the current fort race (i.e. if you are playing as humans they are the ones eligible, not dorfs who might live there) and npc's during adventurer mode just don't seem to respond at all, though I've tried all sorts of stuff to make one run off and make an artifact it hasn't happened yet. Though I did have limited success doing it with advfort and recently got an artifake script working successfully so I suppose I'm something of an expert on the subject now.
I also really hope Kisat Dur will be able to be made into a formal thing.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 30, 2015, 11:52:48 pm
Well they might not be able to have strange moods now, but they also aren't able to do pretty much anything right now. So I wouldn't make any assumptions about multi-racial forts based off of current ones.Strange moods can make an item of any type, regardless of whether the civilization can make it. Bowyers might make a completely useless artifact blowgun, or a weaponsmith could make a maul which dwarves can't even wield. Some mods have even added in weapons that no civilizations have access to as special secret artifact weapons. I think they might be more likely to make an item they can normally make, as I can't recall seeing any non-dwarf weapons in vanilla, but I haven't had many artifact weapons either.They just aren't eligible at all, I've done a lot of research on artifacts and such, the usual methods for forcing a mood just don't work on races outside the current fort race (i.e. if you are playing as humans they are the ones eligible, not dorfs who might live there) and npc's during adventurer mode just don't seem to respond at all, though I've tried all sorts of stuff to make one run off and make an artifact it hasn't happened yet. Though I did have limited success doing it with advfort and recently got an artifake script working successfully so I suppose I'm something of an expert on the subject now.
I also really hope Kisat Dur will be able to be made into a formal thing.
Post by: Max™ on May 31, 2015, 02:16:30 am
Post by: scamtank on May 31, 2015, 08:22:34 am
Post by: Fieari on May 31, 2015, 10:04:26 am
Do you feel like this is a bug, to be removed in the future if possible, or is it a feature (that could maybe be communicated to the player better, like being able to talk to the person you are possessing)?
Post by: Lac on May 31, 2015, 10:12:26 am
The devlog about parchment making mentioned "the new ability to place improvements on products". What does this mean, exactly? Is the decoration/improvement system being extended? Overhauled?It's something he devlogged about on the 5 Feb when he coded for generated musical instruments ["components made of various materials (though they work like item improvements on the final product)"]. My interpretation: When a new item is generated from component items, it uses an existing 'improvements' property to store the material of each component used (e.g. a scroll made from a pine roller and a cedar roller with a lambskin sheet). And it sounds like this can be generically specified in the raws (a scroll is created from two rollers and a sheet, add an improvement: 'a scroll made from a %1% roller and a %2% roller and a %3% sheet' (or maybe 3 separate improvement entries)). I'm surprised he didn't just link back to the original component items, but then he'd have to code a dynamic/meta OO system that I'd imagine is quite hard to code/debug.
Post by: Putnam on May 31, 2015, 07:45:34 pm
Post by: Max™ on May 31, 2015, 09:37:49 pm
Toady, what are your personal feelings towards the "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" situation that currently exists with regards to adventure mode personality? By which I mean, you are possessing an individual who has their own personality (even if we now get to choose what that may be) and can only watch as you use their body to do whatever, leaving them the freedom only to weep uncontrollably at the death and murder you cause.I think he said that it was an unintended--if extremely metal--side-effect of the personalities changes that your adventurer gets a muted personality with no control. If he didn't put the personalities in at all then besides not being able to interact with a retired adventurer I can imagine there would be several other issues with objects trying to point to the adventurer's soul if it was removed and those sort of things tend to cause crashes/instability.
Do you feel like this is a bug, to be removed in the future if possible, or is it a feature (that could maybe be communicated to the player better, like being able to talk to the person you are possessing)?
Post by: Spish on May 31, 2015, 10:52:31 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on May 31, 2015, 11:35:23 pm
Its the first of June for a few hours, our only hope for survival seems missing and the world is in Peril. Where is Toady One, why didnt he answer questions and where is the monthly report? Is he ok? Is Scamps mourning that overcoded himself? Did df Become so powerful Toady segfaulted himself? Questions over question while we battle the encroaching Darkness ...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 01, 2015, 06:22:10 am
*from the diaries of a lost world*:In case you haven't seen it, and you're desperate for Toady's soothing text, there's a May 28th update on the Patreon page on reverse engineering genetics or something that should tide you over until the monthly report.
Its the first of June for a few hours, our only hope for survival seems missing and the world is in Peril. Where is Toady One, why didnt he answer questions and where is the monthly report? Is he ok? Is Scamps mourning that overcoded himself? Did df Become so powerful Toady segfaulted himself? Questions over question while we battle the encroaching Darkness ...
Post by: Toady One on June 01, 2015, 04:08:17 pm
Quote from: Ianflow
1. I was reading about how you wrote that poetry and songs used terminology that is "commonly used". I mentioned this in passing to a friend who's a big dance fan and gaming fan, and she brought up that there is terminology. Have you thought about opening this matter up to the community for input?
2. With what you just said about Earthquakes, have social stigmas affecting the fort's business been considered? (a la what happened during chinese feudalism if a large enough natural disaster occurred)
1. I found some dance terminology, and I've posted my first pass of the paragraphs. If there's more universal terminology, it would work in suggestions.
2. I haven't planned out much of anything along those lines.
Quote from: tahu16
With enough luck and "accidents", will it be possible to make a fortress, where the only citizens are , well ... batmen?
(or any other non-dwarf immigrants, like humans, animal-men etc.)
Yeah, once you get your first permanent sign-up who isn't just visiting, you can end the dwarfiness if you like.
Quote from: Alfrodo
Will the distant update require new worlds for the changes to occur?
Most of them will, yeah. There was no easy way to update the existing saves with randomly generated instruments that'll be respected everywhere, or the new raw jobs. A few bits here and there will work.
Quote from: Max TM
An active projectile has several flags which were critical in getting my dorfs hopping up into trees (and goblin towers) like PARABOLIC and NO_COLLIDE plus NO_IMPACT_DESTROY, but for the life of me I can't determine what HIGH_FLYING does, would you happen to recall if it is an outdated tag or just for something else entirely? Oh, and do any of the numerical flags there have an effect on the way a projectile lands? When you jump you can land on your feet, using the launch.lua script right now you basically have to keep a hand free and grab on to a wall or tree to stop yourself, or just skid to a stop and hope your armor/toughness can take it.
I'm not sure what any of these things are. Are they names from a script or DF hack headers? I'm not sure what you mean by numerical flag. I can't figure out which one HIGH_FLYING could refer to, since there isn't anything along those lines. There is a bit (like #13?) that does controlled jumps so you land on your feet. The first bit also controls how items land, but shouldn't relate to unit landings.
Quote from: SimRobert2001
So, what part of the visitors will visitors play in our fortresses? Are any of them capable of betraying us during a siege, and say, opening a drawbridge?
Nothing interesting like that.
Quote from: Lord Herman
The question about writing being used in engravings made me wonder, will we also see graffiti on walls of towns and ruins, like the drawings found on walls in Pompeii? If so, might it also be possible for adventurers to make their own graffiti?
I'm not sure when we'll get to things like that. Writing things in blood on random walls seems popular. It resides somewhere between the current engraving and spatter systems, probably.
Quote from: SupremeSandwich
As animal people are playable now can gnomes become playable assuming they've joined the civ?
Gnomes are not treated like animal people or gorlaks. Currently considered too drawn by booze stockpiles to be useful contributors.
Quote from: Robsoie
Currently a civilisation inherit all its ethics values from the entity that spawned it, ethic/values will then never change through the course of that civilisation existence.
But in real world, things change, you have ethics that evolve with the people in power, with the influence of culture/religion or simply with the time etc.
With the philosophers and philosophy going to appear in DF, will we see changes in ethics/value within a civilisation with the moving of time, or the rise in prominence from a specific philosopher (or religious leader) , possibly then leading it to break from its entity and even change the war/peace dynamics with other civilsations that had previously exact same ethics/values (due to spawning from same entity) and so made wars possibly happening between those civilisations while it was previously unlikely
We've been aware of the possibility, and the civilizations are all set up to allow them to change away from the definitions. It just needs to have a mechanic. For philosophers, something about how their influence is felt, either through talking or writing or an influential intermediary, etc. We wanted to get to something small this time, but it might not happen now.
Quote from: Eric Blank
If we see several animal men of the same species settle in a human civ, could the population take off, where that species could become a significant portion of the population, or even 1-2% in a handful of sites? Or will these be relegated exclusively to historical figures and their special roles?
They don't get treated as abstract site populations at this point. We were mulling that over when the heroes went in, and thought it would be a reasonably straightforward addition to just move a segment over, preferably with some historical explanation, but we haven't done it yet. It would help them to make little enclaves -- the heroes will hardly ever make families, since you don't often get the same type in the same place.
Quote from: Button
Will naturalized non-dwarves be possible in migrant waves? In the starting 7?
LordBaal mentioned starting scenarios as being a time that this might start to happen, and I'd certainly want to wait at least until we have some more explanatory text. Starting Dwarf Fortress and having nothing but humans come in your first wave would be odd, and we'd want to lay out something about what happened to the hillocks and so forth so that the player understands what's going on (the current position holders are odd enough). I'm not sure how much the first embark scenario release will cover (since there's a lot of potential ground to cover now), but the main goal is to engage the fort more with the world as it exists.
Quote from: Sizik
Do you use any SIMD instructions (e.g. SSE), or do you know if your compiler(s) use them? Why or why not?
I haven't done anything explicitly that I'm aware of, though compiler optimizations squeeze another 10% out with every version and I'm not sure what is going on down there.
Quote from: Spish
how come it's mechanically possible to hold (admittedly one-sided) conversations with babies, but not creatures with the [UTTERANCES] tag? (ie kobolds and modded species)
The babies belong to a creature type that can speak intelligibly, which is what it checks to start, I think.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
Would the ability to base animal men civ's off their bestial counterpart be in the raws anytime soon?
I'm not sure what that entails. The bestial counterpart has no civ. Any traits would need to be inferred somehow, and there isn't much relevant data now.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Will fort visitors 'learn' what kind of behavior they can get away with while at the fort (sheriff present or not, hammerer equipped with platinum warhammer or featherwood crossbow, etc).
They'll understand what's up, hopefully, though I'm not sure there'll be room for a learning process.
Quote from: Pirate Bob
Is it possible that your sheriff enacting justice on visitors who commit crimes could result in retaliation (such as a siege) from the visitors' civilizations?
It wouldn't work that way without a rumor to pass the information, and I don't think one gets created during executions... hmmm... although I think it might pick up on the slayer identification in the historical event, which might be enough for certain personal considerations. The civ members don't generally have time to check all those though.
Quote from: Lord_lemonpie
Are there any plans to make regular dwarfs write diaries?
Having diaries was one of the original plans way back when we conceived of the game (as part of the adventure mode high score procedure in the ruined fort), but now it's a way lower priority. There are getting to be more kinds of writing though, so rather than being fundamental, I expect it'll be one of the things that happens as we have more dwarves writing.
Quote from: Streeter
Have you considered pre-patching the game with large address aware as a temporary hold until 64-bit becomes a reality?
Besides allowing far more RAM allocation, do you know if any of the newer 64-bit instruction sets and registers could help Dwarf Fortress in certain computational tasks? Such as pathing and procedural generation?
LAA came up but I wasn't sure if it would introduce new bugs at random so I never tried it.
I don't know anything about 64 bit ramifications outside of numbers being larger.
The current state on that overall is that the base code is incompatible with 64 bits (the window creation, message pump etc.), and then the supposedly free MSVC stopped working with some kind of expiration window.
Quote from: Witty
How much is lag an issue when you're testing features/debugging? Do you have methods or debug tools that circumvent it?
It doesn't really come up. Most of the time, I have very few units and items on the map, or I'm doing a ton of logging which gums up the works all on its own.
Quote from: Spish
Since wild animal men are now eligible for immigration, will it also be possible to mod feral creatures like, for instance, gnomes and trolls to be able to join civilizations?
And to rephrase my previous question, are kobolds getting their own combat/fort mode dialogue anytime soon? Those guys seem awfully quiet compared to everyone else.
It'll be possible to mod it, though only gorlaks have the setting in vanilla. The game doesn't recognize animal people in any special way -- I've just put a new creature tag in their creature variation (and the gorlak def).
You mean screaming kobold utterances at random? No near-term plans.
Quote from: Urist Arrhenius
You mentioned we'll be in control of whether or not visitors can stay. Will this control be expanded to migrants?
A complete overhaul of the migrant system comes with embark scenarios (every one relates you to your parent civ and neighbors in a different way), but not this time.
Quote from: Max TM
Is the "cause trouble for [insert group]" quest/assignment broken? If not is there a certain less obvious trigger for completion? I've heard and tried fistfights, I've tried maiming various members of said group in sight of other members, I've tried exterminating entire cities save a couple of survivors who I regaled with the tales of my murderspree, and numerous other permutations of this to no avail, I return to the guard captain/lord/lady/etc and give an update, they give a canned response, and it never shows as completed in the log.
It should flag as complete if you've had any conflict at all with the relevant group, and you should give a report of a specific incident that it counts when you report it (or say there will be no rest for the enemy if it can't find one). I can look at a bugged save on the tracker if one's available.
Quote from: Zarathustra30
Are there separate population caps for visitors and citizens?
Why do visitors come? (At the moment. I know it will radically change with start scenarios)
Why do visitors leave? Do they depart on a timer, when their needs are satisfied, random chance, etc?
Just how "citizeny" are visitors? Do they follow traffic designations? Do they trigger traps? Can we assign them labor? Can the military kill them? etc.
Visitors have their own cap.
Visitors come because you have a relevant location designated, with some reputation effects.
Visitors leave once they check off their itinerary items, which usually involves a certain amount of drinking/research/praying, waiting for a residency petition to be heard, etc.
Visitors are like merchants until they become residents, then they are like dwarves.
Quote from: Glanzor
Now that we have foreign people asking for shelter in the fortress:
What about refugees from wars and such?
They would seem like the most logical example for something like that but are not mentioned in the recent dev log.
I haven't done anything additional with them, and the scale there is much larger than single visitors. That's more along the lines of the additional of hill dwarves later, where the numbers will be beyond what can reasonably be loaded.
Quote from: Kogan Loloklam
will you be able to use a kind of kill orders thing to make use of monster hunters to clean out pesky troublemaking critters?
If so...
In the next release or two can we set adventurers out after offsite creatures that annoyed us? And will we be able to track rumors we heard about it via a quest management screen or something?"
Right now you can use them how you like. They might end up a bit more autonomous, but it's easier just to let you order them around once they sign up.
The offsite stuff is all for later.
Quote from: timotheos
With non-dwarf visitors being able to join the fort as citizens will we be able to make clothes & armour of the correct size? ie. large items for humans and XXL for hippomen?
That's the big thing that still needs to be done with them... it would best if you didn't have to fiddle, but it might end up that way. It'll be difficult as the size becomes more diverse, and there has always been the open question of child-sized clothing and so on which is a similar nightmare we'd rather not get into... ever...
Quote from: thvaz
Travellers going to other places wouldn't be another fit category of visitors?
And what about traders? As the caravans bring an entourage of soldiers and merchants, won't they be another kind of visitors (renting rooms and going to parties at the inn)?
Like just passing through? The time difference is a problem there. It's best to go around if you actually want to get somewhere and the game expects you to arrive. The meandering drunk adventurers that show up are kind of on a long journey to nowhere.
But yeah, there are lots of opportunities for different kinds of visitors, and we just need to get to it all. It's to the point where the merchants and their escorts could go party in the tavern as it stands. They'd just need to leave somebody behind at the depot. They could do two-week or month-long shifts, I guess, if they stay a few months.
Quote from: FearfulJesuit
Do you envision spies or other such traitors coming to the fortress later on?
Yeah. We're into that stuff and will slowly inflict it on everybody once we're ready. I don't expect to get there for some time, though.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
What happens if your civ goes to war while your inn is full of visitors from your new enemy's civ? Are there any mechanics to let you know, or will the visitors just turn hostile one day without notice? Would going to war effect the reactions of short-term and long-term visitors in the same way? How will friends of visitors react?
It's possible that it'll start to fall apart quickly, yeah, since we don't have any information restriction mechanisms on that kind of information yet. They cache their reactions to people for a while to save the processor, but it probably won't take long for them to reevaluate, especially if the walk to a new part of the fort or a dwarf they haven't seen comes to where they are standing. I don't think long-term visitors will be as impacted -- their new status should provide a buffer in the calculations.
Quote from: Ianflow
Are we likely to see art forms and intellectual concepts die off? More than the library of alexandria analogy that was proposed, will we see concepts die off the way that Latin as a language died off? (only practiced in scholastic sense and such)
Since the knowledge doesn't have practical uses yet, it's either simply known or not. Once a branch can be explored by a civ, the same potential is there, so something can just be rediscovered after it is lost without really changing character. I guess some difference exist when branches work together and a civ only has one -- as with the elves and some randomized humans. Art forms can be lost as practiced forms, and then reintroduced through books by people that just know them but don't use them, but they can just start using them, so it's not that impressive. Nothing fundamentally shifts in how it is used.
Quote from: Dwarfu
How are the visitors (adventurers, artists, scholars) going to arrive? Accompanying caravans, accompanying migrant waves, on their own? Will there be special announcements to draw attention to their arrival?
Right now they come on their own and get their own announcement. They are listed with the merchants in the unit screen until they sign up (if they want to sign up), at which point they move to the dwarfy list.
Quote from: arkhometha
With musical instruments being used now, are we going to see other non musical related use of "musical" instruments? Like invaders sounding horns to attack or bells being used to wake up the militia soldiers that are sleeping? Or is this behavior part of the army arc?
Nothing like that for this time. But yeah, it's good to have bells and horns now, with hope for the future.
Quote from: Admiral Obvious
Since visitors will be visiting local "establishments", will minting currency have a greater purpose than just to be used as an export item?
I'm not exactly sure what the exchange rate would be, like 1 golden coin for 10k elven bark currency notes? If this is even how it's going to work.
I can just see a possible expansion of the use of currency in this next update as a likely next step. Money for furniture/weapons/food/beer/bounties and whatnot.
Until we get back to the economy in earnest, it's best not to mess around with it too deeply. There should end up being some kind of exchange with the visitors, ideally, since they want your booze, but we still haven't done anything yet. For this reason "Set prices/activities" is not purple with the rest of the tavern stuff on dev.
Quote from: Dwarfu
If the monster hunters are successful in their endeavors during their stay in your fortress, will they make their own trinkets from their kills as they do offsite?
I haven't gotten into anything like that. We'd like to have everything be consistent between play and world gen, but most things are way easier to implement in world gen.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You mentioned inns will attract visitors due to their reputations sometime back. Would the caverns also attract adventurers due to reputation (monsters found, previous adventurers killed, wealth uncovered, or something?).
Yeah, they come for the caverns and stay for the monsters. Right now, it's just a simple trigger, though a bit more might be done before the end.
Quote from: Robsoie
Will visitors decide to never put a foot anymore into a tavern when the death toll start to increase ?
He he he, yes, right now the death trap information is considered public.
Quote from: Thursday Postal
Will there be any 'compatability' problems for multispecies forts other than culture?
Will elves and humans get vitamin D deficiency from being underground too long? Will carnivorous animal people get sick from eating only plump helmets?
We haven't added anything new like that.
Quote from: Souleater17
Will visitors be able to pursue romantic relationships with other visitors and the permanent residents of your fortress?
Yeah, they can form regular relationships as well. There are still creature-type restrictions.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So, scholars and scribes. How does it all fit together on a worldwide scale? Is there a system for passing knowledge around from one fort to another or between friendly civilizations?
Once play begins, the relevant parts are getting the game to recognize which copies are in your library (artifacts are pre-done), and where books go when you trade them away. Handling the trader part is less likely, since they still don't actually exist. Individual scholars move around after world generation, though I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do all the same site/item work from world gen until I get a better handle on items (it's all pretty much the same problem).
Quote from: jason0320
What's the the mechanic of tree growing?
There are various timers and then it decides to grow out that sort of tile, such as a brank or trunk extension etc. (or change from a sapling to a multi-tile tree), according to the parameters set in the raws. The raws also determine which growths are active and whether they are falling, and so on. I'm not sure if you wanted to know something specific.
Quote from: Spish
Would adventurers be able to fill their mugs with drinks from barrels?
Or better yet, the blood of their enemies?
Yeah.
Quote from: Amperzand
Will citizens who secretly murdered other citizens attempt to hide the corpses? And how would that affect the investigation?
How much love will Adventure Mode be getting in the coming updates?
Incidentally, is there any intention to expand the adventure mode medical system?
There's nothing like that. We aren't doing any complicated crime stuff until we get to the complicated crime part of the game.
We're going to try to keep going as we are going with this release -- there's the basic part, the world gen part, the fort part, and the adventure part. As far as I can tell looking ahead, the releases will have room for that kind of growth without being overlong (unless this already counts as overlong).
Adventure mode medical stuff is up on the old dev pages, and that's still the idea -- that we'd somehow get to each dwarf mode job. Clearly healthcare is more important than doing adv versions of some of the more obscure dwarf jobs, but it's unclear when it'll be slated. All we've decided are that the artifact/myth stuff is next, then the embark scenario/law/property stuff.
Quote from: Fieari
Toady, what are your personal feelings towards the "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" situation that currently exists with regards to adventure mode personality? By which I mean, you are possessing an individual who has their own personality (even if we now get to choose what that may be) and can only watch as you use their body to do whatever, leaving them the freedom only to weep uncontrollably at the death and murder you cause.
Do you feel like this is a bug, to be removed in the future if possible, or is it a feature (that could maybe be communicated to the player better, like being able to talk to the person you are possessing)?
He he he, I'm not sure everything is a bug or a feature. This is more like... a situation that arose, one which is very difficult to get right. I'm adding in needs for this version, adding more rather than less personality, but I think the crying part is somewhat extreme. If it judges correctly, it can be cool, but if it is completely wrong about what happened, it's goofy, and there's no really reliably way of making the correct choice. It doesn't bother me much as long as it doesn't take control out of your hands, and it might work out fine when you are taking control of historical figures later. I'm not sure what I think about various expansions to this way of thinking -- the needs part works out well enough, I think, but a more explicit separation of you from your character I'm less comfortable with. I guess it already happened with the "No. That's disgusting." refusal of eat commands earlier on, and I'm sort of against that now, since the game just checks if you are hungry but you might have some other compelling reason to eat... whatever it was. Like becoming a vampire, and so on. The more your character is marked as explicitly squeamish though, the more okay it is, but it still can't judge the degree of your necessity.
Post by: Inarius on June 01, 2015, 04:58:05 pm
If a visitor signs in and becomes a full member of the civilization, will he make engraving or artefact in relation to his former or his current civilisation ? I suppose he will do the same as a Dwarf would do (migrants also writes on walls about things they saw in their former locations, don't they ?), but I'm not sure.
Post by: Button on June 01, 2015, 05:04:37 pm
Visitors are like merchants until they become residents, then they are like dwarves.
So... does that mean they'll go crazy if they're stuck on the map too long?
Are visitors cool with leaving through the caverns?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 01, 2015, 05:39:39 pm
Post by: Putnam on June 01, 2015, 05:46:19 pm
Are there plans for making artifacts magical, like a magic fire sword or healing chalice?
http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Non-player artifacts will likely have some interaction upheavals related to this. Also, there's already a "magical" indicator for items in the game, which can be seen in the in-game help (?) menu.
Post by: Robsoie on June 01, 2015, 06:17:41 pm
Post by: Max™ on June 01, 2015, 06:18:26 pm
Quote from: Toady One
*stuff about the flags*Sorry, those are the names they're given in the dfhack gm-editor, forgot those aren't all pulled from the names you gave.
Lemme see... oh... my... Armok... it works! Thank you so much Toady!
Post by: Putnam on June 01, 2015, 06:23:30 pm
Post by: Max™ on June 01, 2015, 06:45:41 pm
gm-editor uses DFHack headers, so that.Yar, in dfhack it was flags[12] that did it, that was the most annoying part really, that you had to grab a wall or tree to stop yourself. I've now jumped cleanly up into a tree, you could grab someone and give them an alley-oop up onto a wall and they'll land fine, though that does mean it isn't a simple matter of chucking enemies and having them grind across the ground... unless I have it check and flip the flag back, [Toady]he he he[/Toady].
Post by: MDFification on June 02, 2015, 08:00:06 am
Post by: Knight Otu on June 02, 2015, 08:42:21 am
Post by: xaritscin on June 02, 2015, 11:19:27 am
taking in account that practically most of the species with an intelligent or can learn tag will be coming to the fortress. would be feasible to expect stuff like night creatures, evil biome sentients or even released demons to be able to visit and maybe settle in the fortress?
Post by: Dirst on June 02, 2015, 11:58:26 am
this may be a really foolish question but,"Okay kids, it's time again for the Annual Wear Costumes And Go Begging Around The Neighborhood holiday. I'd recommend steering clear of the ol' man Darktangle the Girdle of Boats' place. He means well, giving our really nice cat brain roasts, but remember that he gives off deadly dust constantly."
taking in account that practically most of the species with an intelligent or can learn tag will be coming to the fortress. would be feasible to expect stuff like night creatures, evil biome sentients or even released demons to be able to visit and maybe settle in the fortress?
My guess is that unique creatures would be constitutionally incapable of living in a normal society, but a semimegabeast like a Minotaur could make for a very interesting immigrant-wave-of-one. They might have demands before joining... such as being exempt from certain labors, leading a squad, etc.
Post by: Button on June 02, 2015, 12:32:01 pm
this may be a really foolish question but,
taking in account that practically most of the species with an intelligent or can learn tag will be coming to the fortress. would be feasible to expect stuff like night creatures, evil biome sentients or even released demons to be able to visit and maybe settle in the fortress?
Toady said that there's a boolean (on/off) tag which will determine whether a wild critter can come visit your fortress, and that the tag would, in vanilla, only be on animal people and gorlaks. Making tag combinations which are not present in vanilla work together has not historically been a high priority in DF development. Expect weird behavior if you mod the tag onto semimegabeasts.
Post by: Cruxador on June 02, 2015, 01:46:24 pm
Will the game notice the difference? I realize the answer is probably no for the upcoming release, since it's a very peripheral feature and not a normal use case anyway. But this relates to the idea of the world perceiving player intentions, which is, unless I'm mistaken, the biggest purpose of fortress start scenarios. Will those likely have the possibility to change during play? This also seems like it could related to army arc stuff once your active fort is treated more like a normal site for the purposes of wars and you (presumably, if I understand intended future design intentions correctly) can use nobles for politicking.Quote from: tahu16With enough luck and "accidents", will it be possible to make a fortress, where the only citizens are , well ... batmen?
(or any other non-dwarf immigrants, like humans, animal-men etc.)
Yeah, once you get your first permanent sign-up who isn't just visiting, you can end the dwarfiness if you like.
And not related to that, but also a start-scenario thing: Do you have any plans yet about adding social strata beyond noble/common, such as slaves? I got to thinking of that in connection with visitors and the "Explicit standing of different citizens vs. civilization authorities" note, but it seems like it would be pretty necessary for the prison colonies in general, and could be useful depending on how fulfilling of an implementation you want with religious sites, which would arguably have hierarchy based in faith and might have relevant religious precepts, and the mining companies and military citadels which would probably be differently organized compared to the relatively anarchic situation we've got now.
Post by: Knight Otu on June 02, 2015, 02:06:30 pm
And not related to that, but also a start-scenario thing: Do you have any plans yet about adding social strata beyond noble/common, such as slaves? I got to thinking of that in connection with visitors and the "Explicit standing of different citizens vs. civilization authorities" note, but it seems like it would be pretty necessary for the prison colonies in general, and could be useful depending on how fulfilling of an implementation you want with religious sites, which would arguably have hierarchy based in faith and might have relevant religious precepts, and the mining companies and military citadels which would probably be differently organized compared to the relatively anarchic situation we've got now.Status is specifically mentioned on the dev page for the starting scenario framework, along with "Explicit standing of different citizens vs. civilization authorities." Also, from the last DF Talk:
Quote
The migrants that come - I mean there might not be migrants that come - they might have a certain type of character to them. To really understand that, we're gonna need to add a framework to the game that lets you understand exactly what it is that the citizen's standing is in the civilisation. I mean, are these sort of serfs that are bound to your fortress, are they kind of frontier dwarves, are they almost employees of your mining operation, you know.. So there's a lot of different ways to think about it, and so we'd like to set up a framework of law, customs, rights, property, and status, so that we can understand these things and we can make these scenarios very explicit.
Post by: Rezznov on June 02, 2015, 04:38:16 pm
First post by the way!
Post by: rocer31 on June 03, 2015, 08:34:17 pm
Post by: xaritscin on June 03, 2015, 08:55:20 pm
I remember seeing in the planned features about ships, so Will there be anything involving ships added soon? Also, since there will be ships, and in another reply it was mentioned advanced crime was planned, will that lead to piracy as well?
from what can be gathered of the development page, ships should serve as transport between cities which have access to ports...kinda like a teleport...
Post by: Putnam on June 03, 2015, 09:04:55 pm
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
Boats of some kind might go in early to make different regions more accessible, but you won't be able to be a pirate or an undersea civ for quite a while.
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_5_transcript.html
Rainseeker: I have another question here from Van, and he says, curiously enough, that you should cover vehicles in one of the upcoming DF Talks, and he wants to talk about siege vehicles, mounts, and boats.
Toady: I remember I made that post. Someone wrote a thing about boats, and then I posted a giant thing about boats, and the siege vehicles were going to run into the ideas about boats. I don't remember if we've actually had that on at the DF Talk or not, talking about ...
Rainseeker: Boats I'm not sure.
Toady: The siege vehicles, like multi-tile things that can move around and so on.
Rainseeker: Maybe talk a little bit about multi-tile stuff.
Toady: A large issue there is turning; should you only be able to point in four directions, because it's kind of mathematically impossible to have more without breaking the grid system or breaking the relationships between grids and, or changing the number of grids, and you can't do any of those things really safely. Now even if the thing turns four directions it can still more in many more directions by doing kind of an up-up-over, up-up-over, up-up-over thing. So it's not like they'll be completely dissatisfying, it's just if you're trying to navigate a narrow thing that you'd normally be able to navigate, like a narrow channel that you'd normally be able to navigate a boat through but suddenly you have to corner and it's like, turn ninety degrees or whatever, then you might run into issues, or you make all the boats squares or something, I think that'd be pretty ugly though. But as far as covering it on a DF Talk we can always put it up for vote. Next month is taken by adventure mode, but after that it's up to ...
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_8_transcript.html
Toady: Yeah. The other problem that I was going to mention ... well one of the sub-problems I was going to mention for liquids was boats; boats are important once you get to fluids. Then you've almost got like a cave-in problem; does this multi-tile thing that you've built, perhaps tile by tile, and in whatever shape; does it float? And if so how deep does the boat float and how much of it shows above the surface of the water. It could do that, once it understands the boat as a multi-tile object that's not so hard to calculate, because you have the total mass of the boat and how many air tiles dip down at each level, those kind of things are pretty easily calculated, it would just be a known quantity for that boat and then you could stick it in the water. If you have some giant galleon or something you'd have a couple of tiles below the surface of the water and a couple of tiles above the surface of the water, and you can just walk around on it and stuff; it'd be really cool. The other fluid problem was multiple liquids. It doesn't seem so bad at first if I want to add a couple more liquid types like oil and I mentioned sand before. Sand, you want to be able to build on it or walk on it or whatever has its own problems, but even if you just consider other liquids like actual liquids, like oil and ... I'm not sure what else people have suggested, blood ... and giant alcohol silos.
Quote from: http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_21_transcript.html
Threetoe: Ok, the next question's from Akos: Will you ever implement ports that make sieges and trading possible on isolated islands, how much do you plan to make oceans part of the gameplay, will you have navies or pirate ships that can fire on fortresses?
Toady: So we love this stuff, right? We have, we played Pirates! and Ancient Art of War at Sea and stuff, and...
Threetoe: And multiple submarine simulators.
Toady: Right now I'm reading the whole kind of history of one of the big greek wars and there's triremes ramming everyone and doing all kinds of things and so on. So yeah, we love boats. We've talked in the past about how boats might work so we don't need to go into kind of the technical details, those'll be in the transcripts of the old talks. But it's definitely one of the things that we're planning to do. And kind of incorporate it fully into gameplay everywhere.
Post by: Jairl on June 03, 2015, 11:22:43 pm
Quote from: SizikDo you use any SIMD instructions (e.g. SSE), or do you know if your compiler(s) use them? Why or why not?
I haven't done anything explicitly that I'm aware of, though compiler optimizations squeeze another 10% out with every version and I'm not sure what is going on down there.
You really wouldn't see much SSE usage with compiler optimizations... actually you wouldn't see much "optimization" with compiler optimizations either. Compiler optimizations mostly are "stop producing horrible assembly code" more than "make my code faster."
SSE is a "form" of parallel processing within a single processor environment, in that the same instruction is executed on multiple pieces of data in a single cycle. You REALLY need to set it up right to be using it, just like you need to actually thread your code to get multi-threading.
Vectorized math isn't really that hard and I'm surprised you're not explicitly using it.
Post by: Rose on June 04, 2015, 02:03:29 am
Quote from: StreeterHave you considered pre-patching the game with large address aware as a temporary hold until 64-bit becomes a reality?
Besides allowing far more RAM allocation, do you know if any of the newer 64-bit instruction sets and registers could help Dwarf Fortress in certain computational tasks? Such as pathing and procedural generation?
LAA came up but I wasn't sure if it would introduce new bugs at random so I never tried it.
I don't know anything about 64 bit ramifications outside of numbers being larger.
The current state on that overall is that the base code is incompatible with 64 bits (the window creation, message pump etc.), and then the supposedly free MSVC stopped working with some kind of expiration window.
Yeah, you have to register it to your microsoft account to keep using it, which costs nothing.
Post by: Robsoie on June 04, 2015, 07:11:11 am
In current version while megabeast/undead can still come, when playing Fortress mode goblin sieges (extremely) rarely happen and sometime not at all in dozen of years of fortress running. Will this be improved in the upcoming version ? or will all those multi-species mixing in fort will make goblin siege even less likely ?
Post by: Mel_Vixen on June 04, 2015, 09:25:45 am
Toady you mentioned that the Books deal with migration paterns, do herdanimals/birds and such actually migrate ingame?
Post by: Knight Otu on June 04, 2015, 01:53:45 pm
Toady you mentioned that the Books deal with migration paterns, do herdanimals/birds and such actually migrate ingame?No, that's just a generated research topic.
Post by: Dirst on June 04, 2015, 02:39:55 pm
The specific volume compared the airspeeds of various types of swallows when migrating with coconuts.Toady you mentioned that the Books deal with migration paterns, do herdanimals/birds and such actually migrate ingame?No, that's just a generated research topic.
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on June 04, 2015, 03:49:51 pm
African or European?The specific volume compared the airspeeds of various types of swallows when migrating with coconuts.Toady you mentioned that the Books deal with migration paterns, do herdanimals/birds and such actually migrate ingame?No, that's just a generated research topic.
Post by: Max™ on June 04, 2015, 05:56:29 pm
I... I don't know. *aieeeee*African or European?The specific volume compared the airspeeds of various types of swallows when migrating with coconuts.Toady you mentioned that the Books deal with migration paterns, do herdanimals/birds and such actually migrate ingame?No, that's just a generated research topic.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 04, 2015, 06:42:03 pm
I... I don't know. *aieeeee*African or European?The specific volume compared the airspeeds of various types of swallows when migrating with coconuts.Toady you mentioned that the Books deal with migration paterns, do herdanimals/birds and such actually migrate ingame?No, that's just a generated research topic.
Trick question. It's aquatic.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: King Mir on June 04, 2015, 07:56:23 pm
Post by: IRON_GAUNTLET on June 05, 2015, 07:09:03 am
Post by: BesorgterZwerg on June 05, 2015, 12:46:52 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on June 05, 2015, 03:01:48 pm
With more additions to the game, the more burden falls on the already very strained FPS of Dwarf Fortress. Will there be Improvements on the game-performance in the next realease(s), that could make mega-projects or larger fortresses in general more pleasant to play with?Content releases such as the coming one rarely feature performance upgrades. The bugfix releases afterwards could, however.
Post by: Spish on June 05, 2015, 09:27:26 pm
Post by: palu on June 06, 2015, 08:45:05 am
Post by: Alfrodo on June 06, 2015, 09:20:04 am
With the scenarios/law/property update, might we possibly see the return of the economy?Not until the economy improves....
But maybe, the economy needs to be less broken before it can come back. That'll probably be its own thing, though.
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 06, 2015, 12:32:12 pm
Post by: cybergon on June 07, 2015, 03:23:06 am
Also it kinda bothers me that experienced weaponsmiths and milkers can both be considered legends when one makes masterworks and the other is just a really fast tit-squeezer.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on June 07, 2015, 04:06:16 pm
Will the dabbling-to-legendary scaling of professions ever change? Specially now that the master-apprentice mechanic is a thing in world gen.You've never seen a legendary milker in action. There's a real reason people tell legends about their tit-squeezing.
Also it kinda bothers me that experienced weaponsmiths and milkers can both be considered legends when one makes masterworks and the other is just a really fast tit-squeezer.
Post by: Max™ on June 08, 2015, 12:15:55 am
Post by: ClorrProdigal on June 08, 2015, 01:54:53 am
This is gold :DWill the dabbling-to-legendary scaling of professions ever change? Specially now that the master-apprentice mechanic is a thing in world gen.You've never seen a legendary milker in action. There's a real reason people tell legends about their tit-squeezing.
Also it kinda bothers me that experienced weaponsmiths and milkers can both be considered legends when one makes masterworks and the other is just a really fast tit-squeezer.
Post by: Button on June 08, 2015, 07:50:08 am
Hypothetically speaking... if fortress wealth is high but population low, and our parent civilization happens to be dying/dead; would outsiders sense the opening and flock to the fortress, inadvertently compensating for the lack of migrants?
The lack of migrants is a longstanding misconception. You will get migrants in the same proportion whether your civ has conquered the world or gone completely extinct.
Post by: Alfrodo on June 08, 2015, 07:07:15 pm
Post by: Spish on June 08, 2015, 10:29:49 pm
The lack of migrants is a longstanding misconception. You will get migrants in the same proportion whether your civ has conquered the world or gone completely extinct.Really now? I was under the impression migrants were no longer being generated out of thin air.
Post by: Alfrodo on June 08, 2015, 10:35:19 pm
The lack of migrants is a longstanding misconception. You will get migrants in the same proportion whether your civ has conquered the world or gone completely extinct.Really now? I was under the impression migrants were no longer being generated out of thin air.
I believe the first 2 are. The rest are taken from historical figures, and can have kills, be vampires etc.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 08, 2015, 10:50:43 pm
Basically, I'm wondering about how our newly retirable fortresses are to play in the dwarven economy, and whether or not we are going to be able to have retired fortresses add specific types of products to the pool of tradable goods. (For example, if the mountainhomes do not trade in milk opals, but a player fortress has access to milk opals, and exports large milk opal gems before being retired, does it get added to that civ's list of exportable gems, and can future player embarks in that world then import milk opals to their fort...)
Post by: Putnam on June 08, 2015, 10:58:32 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 09, 2015, 12:05:33 am
IIRC, the position on that is basically that retired fortresses are not much different than other fortresses and should affect the world the same way when it comes to trade.
So it's based upon simple mineral availability in the embark?
I'm honestly not sure how it really works with current fortresses, whether it's what is in the mountainhomes, alone, or whether the whole civ's global mineral availability is counted. Or, for that matter, plants or seeds.
For that matter, is domesticating and exporting animals something that makes future embarks capable of embarking with war tigers?
Post by: Putnam on June 09, 2015, 12:17:46 am
Post by: Button on June 09, 2015, 08:01:58 am
The lack of migrants is a longstanding misconception. You will get migrants in the same proportion whether your civ has conquered the world or gone completely extinct.Really now? I was under the impression migrants were no longer being generated out of thin air.
I believe the first 2 are. The rest are taken from historical figures, and can have kills, be vampires etc.
While historical figures are available for migration, other migrants are still generated from thin air to fill out the total that the game wants to give you.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on June 10, 2015, 12:30:08 pm
Post by: Alfrodo on June 10, 2015, 03:59:14 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on June 10, 2015, 05:23:56 pm
From my experience creatues aren't even truly domesticated in world generation. If you look at the animal knowledge screen in fortress mode it will say general familiarity not domesticated, and you won't be able to embark with them. Aside from that they seem to act as if they've been domestiated. I've also heard animal knowledge transfers to your whole civ when you talk to the liaison, so I'd guess based off of the rest of this that you'll be able to buy the animals from caravans, but not embark with them.IIRC, the position on that is basically that retired fortresses are not much different than other fortresses and should affect the world the same way when it comes to trade.
So it's based upon simple mineral availability in the embark?
I'm honestly not sure how it really works with current fortresses, whether it's what is in the mountainhomes, alone, or whether the whole civ's global mineral availability is counted. Or, for that matter, plants or seeds.
For that matter, is domesticating and exporting animals something that makes future embarks capable of embarking with war tigers?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 10, 2015, 05:36:37 pm
Today's update suggests that excessive alcohol will effect characters, including Dwarves, adversely. If lack of alcohol continues to effect Dwarves badly, and too much alcohol also effects them badly, how does one achieve the right balance in fortress mode?
Do we just try to keep everyone busy, or what?
Post by: monk12 on June 10, 2015, 05:49:27 pm
Post by: Putnam on June 10, 2015, 05:50:07 pm
Quote
terror/rage enchantments and so on
Post by: falcc on June 10, 2015, 05:53:16 pm
When the tavern games update happens will there specifically be drinking games or will there just be games that happen in the same space as drinking? How about drinking contests?
Does drunkenness have any impact on combat? Lowered hit ratio? Additional force? Restricted to wild attacks?
and
Can vampires get drunk by drinking booze? Can vampires pick up the drunkenness syndrome from feeding on drunks?
I'd love to be able to have my vampire drink a bunch of hearty dwarves under the table in a contest, goad them into a fight, and then get pleasantly drunk from the losers afterwards.
Post by: Max™ on June 10, 2015, 11:13:21 pm
I got hit in the head by Putnam's zipper, I don't even know where he lives but I heard a sonic boom several seconds afterwards and it was warm from atmospheric heating.Quoteterror/rage enchantments and so on
Post by: Mel_Vixen on June 11, 2015, 02:24:21 am
That begs few a quick questions:
Apart from dwarfs regarding booze will addiction be based on the material/syndrome? Will there be possible withdrawal effects now that you go into recreational stuff and effects? Also if we mod mood lightening substances/antidepressants (say Agomelatin) would it be possible to change a melancholic dorf from a failed mood into working condition?
Post by: Vattic on June 11, 2015, 02:52:30 am
Are we likely to see some dwarves become the fort drunk?
On the topic of immoderation might we see abstinent dwarves at some point and if so is the slowing effect here to stay?
Are we likely to see creatures stagger about and move involuntarily?
Will booze stealing creatures get drunk?
The dizziness, if that's what Toady uses for ataxia, will at least slow a creature down and sometimes make them pass out.
Does drunkenness have any impact on combat? Lowered hit ratio? Additional force? Restricted to wild attacks?
Post by: Button on June 11, 2015, 08:01:50 am
I am not saying someone is going to mod weed now but someone is going to mod weed now.
Now? I've never touched the stuff irl, but I asked Toady for permission ages ago, and will be including edible hemp buds in the next Expanded Plants release. :)
Quote
Also if we mod mood lightening substances/antidepressants (say Agomelatin) would it be possible to change a melancholic dorf from a failed mood into working condition?
I don't think so... Melancholia is implemented as a form of insanity, not as part of the mood system. And anyway, they never eat again after a failed mood, and you can't direct them to any particular place to get exposed to a contact/inhalation, syndrome so even if it would work you'd have to be creative to apply the effect. Though you could presumably apply antidepressants as a preventative measure to traumatized dwarves.
Post by: Alu on June 11, 2015, 08:38:47 am
If yes, will the innkeeper at some point also serve dwarfs in meeting halls?
It always bothered me, that every single dwarf needs to fetch food&drink by themselves every time and dont just get served by a waiter, or pick it up from the bar or something.
Post by: DG on June 11, 2015, 08:44:33 am
Post by: Kishmond on June 11, 2015, 08:58:32 am
Now that you are integrating inns, will there be an innkeeper job?
If yes, will the innkeeper at some point also serve dwarfs in meeting halls?
It always bothered me, that every single dwarf needs to fetch food&drink by themselves every time and dont just get served by a waiter, or pick it up from the bar or something.
You can kind of simulate a bar with a couple tiles of a food/drink stockpile right next to the tables. Set it to take from your larger food/drink stockpile, say in the basement.
Post by: thedrelle on June 11, 2015, 12:04:44 pm
question: will this mean that some dwarves will use alcohol in extremis to deal with grief? will there be booze suicide spirals now?
Post by: Knight Otu on June 11, 2015, 12:23:50 pm
Now that you are integrating inns, will there be an innkeeper job?We're not quite sure what the tavern keeper does, but it exists as an occupation:
If yes, will the innkeeper at some point also serve dwarfs in meeting halls?
It always bothered me, that every single dwarf needs to fetch food&drink by themselves every time and dont just get served by a waiter, or pick it up from the bar or something.
Quote from: Toady in the 05/18/2015 devlog
I'm setting up the occupation assignment for the new taverns, temples and libraries. They work kind of like position appointments. This time I think we're going with tavern keepers, performers, scribes and scholars. Priests are off the table for this release since they are currently handled by a separate entity and we'll have to tackle that later, but temple performers should still be able to do sacred dances and so forth. Tavern performers are special artists like those from the traveling troupes -- dwarves will still sing, dance and tell stories without needing to be given an occupation.
Post by: Nopenope on June 12, 2015, 10:33:13 am
Post by: DG on June 12, 2015, 11:35:38 am
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 12, 2015, 11:44:33 am
Post by: monk12 on June 12, 2015, 11:56:23 am
Post by: Vattic on June 12, 2015, 12:18:05 pm
I must have missed this debate, since I can't envision a scenario where third party utilities being good would result in the closure of the subforum.Toady's reply (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21806.msg238694#msg238694) in the mentioned thread.
Post by: HavingPhun on June 12, 2015, 03:07:05 pm
Also, what would you say was the most difficult and or interesting piece of creating the world generator for DF. Excluding legends and history. Is there anything else that you would like to eventually add or change with the world generation?
Post by: Spish on June 12, 2015, 03:08:17 pm
Regarding the new effects of alcohol:I think a good way to balance it would be to have satisfied citizens be willing to settle for water if available, while unhappy dwarves guzzle more booze than they need, as a way of drowning their sorrows in alcohol. Or partying if they have nothing better to do. Oh look, someone else beat me to it.
Today's update suggests that excessive alcohol will effect characters, including Dwarves, adversely. If lack of alcohol continues to effect Dwarves badly, and too much alcohol also effects them badly, how does one achieve the right balance in fortress mode?
Do we just try to keep everyone busy, or what?
On that note it would be cool if a drink's value (and psychological effectiveness) was directly correlated to its alcoholic potency.
Post by: Max™ on June 13, 2015, 12:40:40 am
Toady, I am interested in how you generate the local maps in dwarf fortress, such as the maps that your adventurer and dwarfs run around in. How do you make the edges of each local map match up? How do you make sure that the elevation of a local map corresponds with the elevation of the world tile that it is within?
Also, what would you say was the most difficult and or interesting piece of creating the world generator for DF. Excluding legends and history. Is there anything else that you would like to eventually add or change with the world generation?
Spoiler: Danger Will Robinson (click to show/hide)
I know sometimes I get the urge to fort it up, more often I want to run around being a murderhobo, but sometimes I just get the urge to gen worlds and poke at the histories to see what I find. That's a hell of an achievement, making world-gen interesting enough that folks just want to play with it instead of the game at times.
Post by: stinkasectomy on June 13, 2015, 02:48:22 am
will a tall, broad, muscle-and-lard-bound dwarf never be drunk? and if an already small dwarf has a few combat amputations, will they die as soon as they touch a drop?
actually, better examples: will gnomes (being the smallest guzzlers) now run into booze stockpiles and just die. and will polar bears or other large drinkers be getting drunk at all?
having size based effects seems logical but gnomes will make things hard. while having drunkenness be size independent could lead to people (me) deliberately leaving a barrel of booze out to get and giants or ettins drunk before sending in the military.
that said, I was reading the raws and I noticed that dwarves have a liver that is 50% larger than a humans, so...
do you plan on making drunkenness (and/or any other syndromes) strength/duration be related to liver size?
(and then maybe make gnomes livers take up most of their chest cavities?)
Post by: Nahere on June 13, 2015, 02:52:52 am
Post by: stinkasectomy on June 13, 2015, 04:09:27 am
Syndromes can already have the SIZE_DILUTES tag, so presumably alcohol will just use that.
i knew they CAN but i was unsure if they all do. a quick check of the wiki informs me that
SIZE_DILUTES
SIZE_DELAYS
are both optional tags
I only have a basic understanding of syndromes, but having the same syndrome (based on dwarves being usually a little dizzy but sometimes dying in rare cases) seems that gnomes in particular would often drink themselves to death while larger bears would hardly get tipsy, not to speak of giants
adult gnomes are ~15,000cm3
adult dwarves are ~60,000cm3
adult giant sloth bears are ~933,000cm3 (the largest non-semimegabeast CURIOUSBEAST_GUZZLER)
adult giants ~9,000,000cm3 CURIOUSBEAST_GUZZLER
Post by: Putnam on June 13, 2015, 04:11:24 am
Post by: Amperzand on June 13, 2015, 06:57:50 pm
Post by: Putnam on June 13, 2015, 07:07:08 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 13, 2015, 07:28:06 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 13, 2015, 07:31:47 pm
To start with a metaphor, I remember that the game Cities XL was originally meant to be a sort of MMO SimCity, but the company couldn't put together the money or servers for an MMO, and went bankrupt, so the company that bought the game just sold it Singleplayer. The game was originally meant to have each city require resources that it couldn't produce, itself, so you had to set up trade deals with other player's cities. In the released game, however, when your main city needs something, you have to save it, then start your own new city to generate and trade away that resource you need, and start trade between your two cities.
Much of the original idea behind Dwarf Fortress, as I remember it, was about how it would be cool to let players build a fortress, then, when they are done with it, they could revisit that fortress as an adventurer or something, and see the impact that fortress had on the surroundings. Toady's talked about how he likes doing things like minting coins, then seeing how far abroad those coins can be found in other markets. The whole "Losing is Fun" thing started, at least allegedly, as a way to encourage players to keep playing the same world over and over, because every continuation of play in the same world compounded the history and meaning of that world to the player.
Now, with retirement and caravans/taverns that allow for player fortresses to interact without crumbling, I'm wondering at the direction Toady wants to take with encouraging players to reuse the same worlds, building more and more forts that can interact.
Since I remember a large portion of why mineral scarcity was introduced was to accomplish something similar to this for the caravan arc down the road, where you need more constant trade between forts, I'm wondering if there's something similar to what happened in Cities XL planned for DF.
Furthermore, the only "multiplayer" DF has ever had has always been from "succession games", where saves were passed around. Older suggestions at multiplayer were based around an idea that multiple forts could be played in the same year, and then at the turn of Spring, a save merging could take place to allow "simultaneous play". This relied upon the continuation of world events largely only happening on an annual basis, and determined at year start, however. The (relatively) recent world activation, however, shows that the world is to be running more-or-less constantly in the background, which scuttles any attempt at mock-simultaneous play without using some arbitrary limiters of how worldmap actions take place.
Toady, since we now have both retiring forts and you are adding in more free-wheeling caravans, traders, wanderers and hill-dwarves, plus there are going to be starting scenarios, I'm curious about how you want retired player forts to interact with active player forts in the long run. Are you going to try to get towards a retirement system where forts have saved import needs/export capacities or other pushes/pulls upon new player forts?
(I.E. build a new fort to support the next fort or sustain your last fort. "The mountainhomes need steel, set up a mine, and export iron or steel." "The mountainhomes is rich in steel, now we need you to build a watchpost at this location and train these steel-clad but rookie soldiers into stalwart defenders of the realm.")
Do you consider potential goals like potential "mock-simultaneous" play or taking steps to encourage succession multiplayer across multiple forts (sharing world saves after abandoning/retiring) as a means of encouraging play in a shared history worthwhile? For that matter, how much is this notion of compounding historic depth still a driver of your focus as a developer after all this time?
EDIT: Correcting typo
Post by: Max™ on June 13, 2015, 08:30:24 pm
Hmmm, I was just reading and thinking about the libraries and drunken behavior at taverns. A stern old elf waiting outside a library that unfortunately ended up next to a tavern, you pass by, he greets you, you ask if he needs any help with anything, he's like "yeah, can you go kill all those noisy jerks next door?", and you're like 'can I? I was just about to anyways!' or something.
We'll be able to drink ourselves into a stupor, scrawl bad poetry in a library book, fall into a coma, and die in the stacks, I can't wait.
Post by: cybergon on June 14, 2015, 04:42:43 am
Are we likely to see some dwarves become the fort drunk?
Some? Become? Aren't they all already?
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 14, 2015, 10:17:43 am
I think that is sort of the direction where the embark scenarios are meant to go, though with the added depth of embark scenarios checking and adapting on the fly more fluidly, which may already be something he intended. As the saying goes he went to improve hauling and ended up creating the minecarts and physics to handle them.
I think that should be referred to as minecart "physics", because they behave very oddly, but anyway...
Asking for an explanation of intent can be more informative than an assumption, especially for a project that has gone on this long. There can be evolution of intent over time, and it's worth asking whether Toady was making minecarts because he thought it was a pretty and interesting cog to spend time polishing, or whether he saw it as suddenly more immediately necessary to the overall machine than he previously did.
Post by: Max™ on June 14, 2015, 05:06:16 pm
Post by: golemgunk on June 14, 2015, 05:57:48 pm
... deliberately leaving a barrel of booze out to get and giants or ettins drunk before sending in the military.
That would be really cool, and it even has a precedent in several old stories. The cyclops in The Odyssey and the Japanese Orochi come to mind.
Post by: Cruxador on June 15, 2015, 03:05:08 am
I'm not sure how inebriation squares with the current relationship DF dwarves have with alcohol. Maybe dwarven drunkenness in Fort Mode will be restricted to "recreational" drinking a dwarf can do in taverns during their break (where they can presumably drink too much in too little time) while the "functional" drinking to get through the working day isn't counted toward them getting drunk? Otherwise I'd expect they'd need to drink water sometimes or dilute their alcohol.Well, the dwarven liver is three times the size of a human one, implying that dwarves require much more booze to feel an effect. Given the pace of eating and drinking in fort mode it should be fine.
Post by: Inarius on June 15, 2015, 03:13:37 am
Well, I hope.
Post by: Knight Otu on June 15, 2015, 08:12:31 am
Post by: Dirst on June 15, 2015, 10:19:49 am
Simple temple praying for the adventurer perhaps (as opposed to "talk to your god")."O Armok, I live to serve you! Are you pleased with my actions dispensing justice in this world?"
Segmentation fault (core dumped).
Post by: Max™ on June 15, 2015, 12:26:34 pm
return amen
/home/armoksbeard/.df/hack/scripts/scamps-is-best-coder.lua:43: attempt to index global 'tuna' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
/home/armoksbeard/.df/hack/scripts/scamps-is-best-coder.lua:48: in function 'lkjser33333333'
/home/armoksbeard/.df/hack/scripts/scamps-is-best-coder.lua:60: in function ',,,(^..^),,,'
./hack/lua/dfhack.lua:461: in function <./hack/lua/dfhack.lua:425>
(...tail calls...)
Post by: RoaryStar on June 15, 2015, 12:35:52 pm
How do you handle events? Do you, say, loop through every/certain intervals of items/units/etc, or do you use another method?
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 15, 2015, 03:14:34 pm
How do you handle events? Do you, say, loop through every/certain intervals of items/units/etc, or do you use another method?
Define "events".
If it's something like when a party is started, there is a counter for those things on each dwarf (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Syndrome#Counter_Triggers), which is incremented every single frame.
In general, Toady seems to avoid scheduler-style updates for reasons I don't understand, and prefers update-every-freaking-item-in-the-game-every-single-frame methods, which help lead to FPS decay.
Post by: Putnam on June 15, 2015, 03:54:12 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 15, 2015, 04:15:32 pm
There are scheduler-type updates for a lot of things. If you look at a filling or emptying bunch of water, you can see the pattern of updates going over it. Items are checked for for pathability or w/e every 1,2,4,8, etc. up to IIRC 1024 ticks (said IIRC in an interview).
He's done it for water, certainly, because it's such a massive hit to FPS if he doesn't that he pretty much had to.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It doesn't happen for almost anything creature-related, and probably should, as there's little reason to update thirst, hunger, readiness to party and the like between actual turns within which the creature can actually make decisions based upon those properties.
Water, for that matter, could be handled differently. Minecraft, for example, largely only checks when neighboring tiles are changed, rather than periodic polling. (Although Minecraft's system obviously has bugs and serious exploits associated with it, especially since they don't handle flows well or units of water less than a block.) I'd also made a suggestion a while back (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61215.msg1430380#msg1430380) on treating water as a whole body, rather than a series of tiles that individually flow, which should also preserve FPS, especially with large bodies like oceans.
Post by: NJW2000 on June 15, 2015, 04:49:13 pm
Selfish and irrelevant question:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
?Post by: Cruxador on June 15, 2015, 04:59:20 pm
Is there any likelihood of a more detailed relationship system e.g. social calls, grudges turning into friendships, feelings of indebtedness, proposals (turned down), unrequited love, non-mutual hatred, hatred generally, gifts, stuff that happens to us normally, any or all of these?Yes but not in this release.
Quote
Selfish and irrelevant question:I didn't even know there was a way to start it doing that.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Robsoie on June 15, 2015, 05:01:31 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=notification
Post by: Putnam on June 15, 2015, 05:14:32 pm
Post by: Max™ on June 15, 2015, 09:14:21 pm
Will barfights inspire troubles later on or is it forgive and forget type stuff for non-serious brawling?
Post by: DG on June 16, 2015, 06:54:56 am
"Oh no, Rakust has been bitten by a weregopher! What will we do!?"
"She must be fed the tears of a unicorn before the new moon!"
Post by: Kogan Loloklam on June 16, 2015, 07:42:48 am
I'm not talking about alcohol breath. I'm talking about contact poisoning or other contamination issue that increases the alcohol consumption flag. Or other already present syndromes.
Post by: WordsandChaos on June 16, 2015, 07:54:34 am
Is it now possible for drunk-inducing breath to exist?
Post by: Dirst on June 16, 2015, 08:12:16 am
Not talking about alcoholic breath? Why not!?The SYN_CLASS or equivalent tag should be in the raws, so it should be pretty easy. And even if it's not in the raws, the folks who spend their free time inspecting DF string dumps will find it anyway.
Is it now possible for drunk-inducing breath to exist?
Post by: Cruxador on June 16, 2015, 09:46:02 am
Linking syndromes sounds like a good way to implement antidotes.That also relies on a syndrome vector being able to change concentration by a negative amount.
"Oh no, Rakust has been bitten by a weregopher! What will we do!?"
"She must be fed the tears of a unicorn before the new moon!"
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 16, 2015, 11:56:12 am
Linking syndromes sounds like a good way to implement antidotes.
"Oh no, Rakust has been bitten by a weregopher! What will we do!?"
"She must be fed the tears of a unicorn before the new moon!"
Such a thing would require the capacity to actually order dwarves to gather specific things ("What part of the pea plant do I gather again? Oh well, I'll just uproot the whole thing!" "Hey, there's a whole pea plant here! I don't know which part is the pea, so I'll just not eat any of it...") as well as order dwarves to not only drink specific things, but things that are not normal drinking items, and/or mix drinks.
Not saying it would be a bad thing, mind you, I'm sure people would love the ability to point to specific things they want done, but that's a huge step up in Interface specificity. Right now, it's hard to even keep dwarves from deciding the hospital operating room isn't an appropriate place to have lunch, even when it's being actively used by a dwarf bleeding out from a syndrome.
Post by: Dirst on June 16, 2015, 11:59:53 am
Right now, it's hard to even keep dwarves from deciding the hospital operating room isn't an appropriate place to have lunch, even when it's being actively used by a dwarf bleeding out from a syndrome."Try the red sauce. It's got an interesting flav-- oh my eyes are melting!"
Post by: NJW2000 on June 16, 2015, 12:26:01 pm
Is there any likelihood of a more detailed relationship system e.g. social calls, grudges turning into friendships, feelings of indebtedness, proposals (turned down), unrequited love, non-mutual hatred, hatred generally, gifts, stuff that happens to us normally, any or all of these?Yes but not in this release.
QuoteSelfish and irrelevant question:I didn't even know there was a way to start it doing that.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Cheers, crux + others, can't wait to watch my militia commander turn down the lovestruck peasant that ran out in the middle of the seige to propose :P!
Post by: RoaryStar on June 16, 2015, 02:15:51 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Okay, thanks for the information.
Post by: Eric Blank on June 16, 2015, 02:17:05 pm
Linking syndromes sounds like a good way to implement antidotes.That also relies on a syndrome vector being able to change concentration by a negative amount.
"Oh no, Rakust has been bitten by a weregopher! What will we do!?"
"She must be fed the tears of a unicorn before the new moon!"
Hey Toady, can syndrome concentrations be reduced, or can syndromes be otherwise directly 'cured' rather than simply counter-acted (removing the syndrome, such that the afflicted isn't now afflicted with a syndrome with opposite effects, but is no longer affected by the original syndrome) now?
Linking syndromes sounds like a good way to implement antidotes.
"Oh no, Rakust has been bitten by a weregopher! What will we do!?"
"She must be fed the tears of a unicorn before the new moon!"
Such a thing would require the capacity to actually order dwarves to gather specific things ("What part of the pea plant do I gather again? Oh well, I'll just uproot the whole thing!" "Hey, there's a whole pea plant here! I don't know which part is the pea, so I'll just not eat any of it...") as well as order dwarves to not only drink specific things, but things that are not normal drinking items, and/or mix drinks.
Not saying it would be a bad thing, mind you, I'm sure people would love the ability to point to specific things they want done, but that's a huge step up in Interface specificity. Right now, it's hard to even keep dwarves from deciding the hospital operating room isn't an appropriate place to have lunch, even when it's being actively used by a dwarf bleeding out from a syndrome.
My greatest hope would be that experienced diagnosers can recognize syndromes and prescribe curatives (which the patient may or may not be willing to take without a direct order to do so) rather than simply prescribe surgeries. Hopefully less micromanagement than having to watch every dorf's medical status and find and prescribe the medication yourself.
Post by: Button on June 16, 2015, 03:00:15 pm
Linking syndromes sounds like a good way to implement antidotes.
"Oh no, Rakust has been bitten by a weregopher! What will we do!?"
"She must be fed the tears of a unicorn before the new moon!"
Such a thing would require the capacity to actually order dwarves to gather specific things ("What part of the pea plant do I gather again? Oh well, I'll just uproot the whole thing!" "Hey, there's a whole pea plant here! I don't know which part is the pea, so I'll just not eat any of it...") as well as order dwarves to not only drink specific things, but things that are not normal drinking items, and/or mix drinks.
Not saying it would be a bad thing, mind you, I'm sure people would love the ability to point to specific things they want done, but that's a huge step up in Interface specificity. Right now, it's hard to even keep dwarves from deciding the hospital operating room isn't an appropriate place to have lunch, even when it's being actively used by a dwarf bleeding out from a syndrome.
Chain + stockpile, with a raising bridge or minecart delivery system to be safe.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 16, 2015, 05:40:48 pm
Right now Dwarves are diagnosed by a doctor and the medical team use the resources to hand to fix the problem. There's no need for the player to do anything but keep the hospital stocked up. The only thing extra needed in this case is a medicine cabinet and some chemists to keep it stocked up. Doesn't sound too complicated.Linking syndromes sounds like a good way to implement antidotes.
"Oh no, Rakust has been bitten by a weregopher! What will we do!?"
"She must be fed the tears of a unicorn before the new moon!"
Such a thing would require the capacity to actually order dwarves to gather specific things ("What part of the pea plant do I gather again? Oh well, I'll just uproot the whole thing!" "Hey, there's a whole pea plant here! I don't know which part is the pea, so I'll just not eat any of it...") as well as order dwarves to not only drink specific things, but things that are not normal drinking items, and/or mix drinks.
Not saying it would be a bad thing, mind you, I'm sure people would love the ability to point to specific things they want done, but that's a huge step up in Interface specificity. Right now, it's hard to even keep dwarves from deciding the hospital operating room isn't an appropriate place to have lunch, even when it's being actively used by a dwarf bleeding out from a syndrome.
Doing specific things like hunting unicorns and mixing up potions step at a time seems more appropriate for adventure mode.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on June 16, 2015, 05:41:17 pm
Post by: cybergon on June 16, 2015, 08:16:47 pm
Linking syndromes sounds like a good way to implement antidotes.
"Oh no, Rakust has been bitten by a weregopher! What will we do!?"
"She must be fed the tears of a unicorn before the new moon!"
I can see the alchemist skill wiping off all the dust and cobwebs in its lab.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 16, 2015, 10:36:22 pm
Right now Dwarves are diagnosed by a doctor and the medical team use the resources to hand to fix the problem. There's no need for the player to do anything but keep the hospital stocked up. The only thing extra needed in this case is a medicine cabinet and some chemists to keep it stocked up. Doesn't sound too complicated.
Doing specific things like hunting unicorns and mixing up potions step at a time seems more appropriate for adventure mode.
If you're talking about procedurally selected cures to procedurally generated syndromes and diseases, however, "keeping your hospital stocked" may involve tossing in every random extract and excretion of every plant and creature to ever exist. You'd need some method of throttling or else candy stitches are going to be the least of your hospital-controlling concerns.
Beyond that, you, at some point, need the capacity to actually gather said unicorn tears in the first place, and then designate them for stocking your hospital.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 17, 2015, 12:21:40 am
Bitten fisherdwarf is diagnosed with weretortoise infection, none of the medicine in the cupboard will do the job, so the doctor (or herbalist or someone) starts running around collecting all the ingredients in a race against time.
Herbalist screams 'I must have unicorn tears!!'.
Caravan is fresh out.
Herbalist goes insane, and kills half the inn.
Weretortoise takes out the rest.
Sounds pretty Fun to me. :)
Post by: Rose on June 17, 2015, 01:46:47 am
Just hope they're more accurate than mideval vampire cures.
Post by: flabort on June 17, 2015, 01:48:59 am
Well, you can solve this with either the "stock the hospital with everything!" approach, or adding a "rumors" tab to the Z screen, allowing diplomats to bring tales of supposed cures and other news, and store Liason stuff under the Rumors tab, so that you can know in advance what the cure might be and stock the hospital with those things.Right now Dwarves are diagnosed by a doctor and the medical team use the resources to hand to fix the problem. There's no need for the player to do anything but keep the hospital stocked up. The only thing extra needed in this case is a medicine cabinet and some chemists to keep it stocked up. Doesn't sound too complicated.
Doing specific things like hunting unicorns and mixing up potions step at a time seems more appropriate for adventure mode.
If you're talking about procedurally selected cures to procedurally generated syndromes and diseases, however, "keeping your hospital stocked" may involve tossing in every random extract and excretion of every plant and creature to ever exist. You'd need some method of throttling or else candy stitches are going to be the least of your hospital-controlling concerns.
Beyond that, you, at some point, need the capacity to actually gather said unicorn tears in the first place, and then designate them for stocking your hospital.
Nah, see, that's where scholars come in. You can read through your accumulated library, and see if there's any books about were-creature cures.Or this. This would work too.
Just hope they're more accurate than mideval vampire cures.
Post by: cybergon on June 17, 2015, 02:10:47 am
Post by: Cruxador on June 17, 2015, 02:16:23 am
How about, now that we have inns and taverns, you get to hire adventurers to bring the special ingredients you need for a cure if you don't have them?Chances are they don't have time to leave the map and come back before the patient dies.
Post by: DG on June 17, 2015, 05:22:36 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 17, 2015, 05:46:22 am
Nah, see, that's where scholars come in. You can read through your accumulated library, and see if there's any books about were-creature cures.Excellent!
Just hope they're more accurate than mideval vampire cures.
Injured Fisherdwarf is diagnosed with weretortoise infection
Doctor rushes off to library and demands a cure
Urist McAmateur the new scholar scribbles down a recipe
Urist McHerbalist rushes around in a mood gathering ingredients
Recipe is made by Urist McChemist and given to the patient just in time
Recipe is found to be useless due to Urist's poor knowledge
Weretortoise wipes out half the fortress
Library is burned down by lynch mob
The age of Dwarven cooperation is upon us!
Post by: Dirst on June 17, 2015, 07:10:55 am
Unfortunately for Urist's reputation, the next couple caravans were very well-stocked...
Post by: DG on June 17, 2015, 07:26:35 am
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 17, 2015, 04:35:35 pm
How about, now that we have inns and taverns, you get to hire adventurers to bring the special ingredients you need for a cure if you don't have them?
This would have to be a system if you have certain required animal parts.
I mean, if you require giant red panda back toenails or ice wolf nervous tissue for a cure, and it's not on the map, you pretty much would have to commission the animal to be found. (Or retire and set off as an adventurer, yourself...)
All things considered, unless the preferences screen has an overhaul, this sort of thing would be preferable, anyway, as it's kind of ridiculous that dwarves from tropical climates all prefer ice wolf milk or something.
Post by: LordBaal on June 18, 2015, 10:39:56 am
Post by: Alfrodo on June 18, 2015, 11:34:48 am
Soo.... can we have zombie virus now?
We already have it. (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Undead#Thralls.2C_Husks.2C_and_Zombies)
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 18, 2015, 12:16:40 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on June 18, 2015, 02:15:14 pm
If we port over a save from 0.40 to the new version, will we get visitors?Assuming the saves do stay compatible (last we heard, they were, but that could change still), visitors would be one of the few features available to old saves in the new version, since some classes of potential visitors already exist in those worlds - mercenaries, beast hunters, and such.
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 18, 2015, 02:16:41 pm
Post by: tahu16 on June 19, 2015, 06:59:18 am
Post by: Alfrodo on June 19, 2015, 08:33:40 am
What is your plan regarding the rest of the literature? Will we ever see novels, epics and other "entertaining" books?
Your last post implies there are different research subjects from people like naturalists. How many more research fields are we going to see and are they going to be of any use? Are we going to see people like chemists, geologists, material scientists, and physicists making books too? An earlier post also implied stories can be told. Will books be a medium for storytelling?
Post by: DG on June 22, 2015, 12:00:44 am
Post by: Cruxador on June 22, 2015, 04:43:52 am
Post by: Knight Otu on June 22, 2015, 05:10:26 am
Post by: Cruxador on June 22, 2015, 05:22:40 am
Or maybe, just maybe, as a little theory, the two animal men just stood out of the mostly-unmentioned mass of dwarves, humans, and elves that surrounded them.That's a distinct possibility to be sure; the latest devlog does take on a bit of a lackadaisical meander and the devlogs go for what's interesting regardless, though usually as a contrast to the new (or intended) norm. At any rate, I'd say that even two animal men in a village should be the exception rather than the norm, for the sake of keeping them interesting.
Post by: Knight Otu on June 22, 2015, 05:40:40 am
Post by: WordsandChaos on June 22, 2015, 07:53:47 am
Post by: Alfrodo on June 22, 2015, 09:19:59 am
How do the taverns work for Elves or Goblins? Dwarves and humans seem like they'd be pretty standard 'put walls around a tap and some chairs' affair. Do Elves and Goblins have taverns? Do they even have a cultural equivalent, or are you thinking that Elves/Goblins do something radically different as a passtime?
Quote
Elves/Goblins do something radically different as a passtime?
I feel like I should pull Snoop Mango out from the Blind drunk thread again...
EDIT: Here you go.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 22, 2015, 10:09:27 am
Goblin civs, meanwhile, don't need to drink anything, but they also have a social "order" based mostly upon "might makes right" and extreme libertarianism/anarchy. As such, they probably drink alcohol for the giggles frequently between rounds of snorting lines of other mind-altering substances off of kidnapped children and social inferior torture parties.
As for the animalpeople, there are a huge variety of them, but they also seem to be rather rare, at least, outside of them being absorbed into a "real" civ. Naturally having a shell or claws are no match for an organized military, and they are rather short-lived. Given what was in "Root", one would expect them to be most heavily aligned with elf civs, although maybe more peaceful members of subterranean races will be common in dwarf civs. I look forward to finding out that I have the bat man in one of my immigrant waves.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 25, 2015, 09:18:26 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on June 27, 2015, 01:25:22 am
Post by: Toady One on June 27, 2015, 04:05:18 am
Post by: burned on June 27, 2015, 04:10:33 am
I assume the latest devlog points to the game recognizing the influence of the seasons on daylight. Do you have any ideas about how this would be expanded, if it ever is- day-night cycles in fort mode, or eternal summer days in polar regions?
I'm not sure how day and night cycles could be properly represented in fort mode, but I also don't think that's what he meant (http://www.weather.com/forecast/regional/news/record-west-heat-wave-northwest-great-basin-latejun2015).
Edit: Doh! ;]
Post by: kulik on June 27, 2015, 08:54:32 am
Post by: jason0320 on June 27, 2015, 09:38:51 am
Will the dwarven economy be fixed and republished in future versions?
Will the path finding problem of player civilization's flyer and aquatic creatures (if a aquatic creature enters a tile with over 3/7 water it will wrongly recognize that tile as dangerous terrain and start spamming "creature cancels task: dangerous terrain" and so do flyer creatures) be fixed in future versions?
Will the issue of egg laying creatures eating their own eggs be fixed in future versions?
Will hard coded buildings like smelter be soft codded?
Will hard coded raws like water be soft codded?
Will there be more multi-tile creatures like wagon?
Will amber and coral be added in the game?
Will there be more magic than necromancy be added in the game?
Will there be more threetoe's stories?
Will the "plane" features in this story (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_journey.html) be added in the game?
Post by: Knight Otu on June 27, 2015, 10:35:46 am
Will there be plantable trees in future versions?Yes, no, maybe, no timeline; apply to the questions as needed. :P
Will the dwarven economy be fixed and republished in future versions?
Will the path finding problem of player civilization's flyer and aquatic creatures (if a aquatic creature enters a tile with over 3/7 water it will wrongly recognize that tile as dangerous terrain and start spamming "creature cancels task: dangerous terrain" and so do flyer creatures) be fixed in future versions?
Will the issue of egg laying creatures eating their own eggs be fixed in future versions?
Will hard coded buildings like smelter be soft codded?
Will hard coded raws like water be soft codded?
Will there be more multi-tile creatures like wagon?
Will amber and coral be added in the game?
Will there be more magic than necromancy be added in the game?
Will there be more threetoe's stories?
Will the "plane" features in this story (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_journey.html) be added in the game?
More seriously, most of these questions have been answered before, and for most, the answer is "yes, but there's no timeline for it yet. At some point, there will be plantable trees, a new economy, more hard-coded stuff moved into the raws (though actual fluids like water have more problems), multi-tile creatures have gotten experimented with, magic has been mentioned for the Artifacts section, the story was partially to highlight how planes could work in the game, etc
Post by: lethosor on June 27, 2015, 11:00:04 am
They are in the game, strictly speaking, but they're not used for anything besides forgotten beasts and other randomly-generated creatures at the moment.
Will amber and coral be added in the game?
Edit: It might be possible to find crafts made from these materials as well.
Post by: NJW2000 on June 27, 2015, 11:09:07 am
Unfortunatley, we can't genetically synthesize giant megabeasts from a time before time out of vermin entobed in amber, yet :P, that'll have to be a later release.
Are coral FBs are a hint that sea FBs (AKA Krakens hype hype hype) will someday be added in the game?
Post by: Alfrodo on June 27, 2015, 11:22:01 am
I thought amber was a gem.
Unfortunatley, we can't genetically synthesize giant megabeasts from a time before time out of vermin entobed in amber, yet :P, that'll have to be a later release.
Are coral FBs are a hint that sea FBs (AKA Krakens hype hype hype) will someday be added in the game?
I think that's more a hint that coral will be added. Forgotten beasts just take any material, Coral is a material, so it takes it.
I've had forgotten beasts made out of vomit and blue diamond. Coral FBs probably hint at coral reefs or more entertaining seascapes.
Post by: NJW2000 on June 27, 2015, 11:23:34 am
Post by: Alfrodo on June 27, 2015, 11:32:54 am
Just hundreds of dwarves diving into the nearby ocean to collect some brain coral only to drown 3 seconds after they touch water...
Post by: NJW2000 on June 27, 2015, 11:46:31 am
Post by: MrWiggles on June 27, 2015, 12:36:30 pm
I wonder how dwarves would get at coral anyway, noting their super drowning skills.Dorf Engineering. Just empty a section of the ocean.
Just hundreds of dwarves diving into the nearby ocean to collect some brain coral only to drown 3 seconds after they touch water...
Post by: NJW2000 on June 27, 2015, 12:51:27 pm
I wonder how dwarves would get at coral anyway, noting their super drowning skills.Dorf Engineering. Just empty a section of the ocean.
Just hundreds of dwarves diving into the nearby ocean to collect some brain coral only to drown 3 seconds after they touch water...
A fine summary of said reasons :P
Post by: Amperzand on June 27, 2015, 02:50:15 pm
Post by: Vattic on June 27, 2015, 03:25:19 pm
Post by: jason0320 on June 27, 2015, 09:24:32 pm
More seriously, most of these questions have been answered before, and for most, the answer is "yes, but there's no timeline for it yet. At some point, there will be plantable trees, a new economy, more hard-coded stuff moved into the raws (though actual fluids like water have more problems), multi-tile creatures have gotten experimented with, magic has been mentioned for the Artifacts section, the story was partially to highlight how planes could work in the game, etcOk thanks.
Post by: Robsoie on June 27, 2015, 11:12:51 pm
Humans from around oceans sometimes bring coral crafts or at least did in older versions.
And sometime the coral comes to you by itself (http://i.imgur.com/oExtE.jpg) too
Post by: blazing glory on June 28, 2015, 03:04:58 am
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 28, 2015, 03:17:28 am
Later, will it be possible to get Dwarves to hunt properly (as in, bringing the kill back to the fortress.) with melee weapons such as spears?
They used to be able to use other weapons in older versions, according to the wiki. It could definitely still be a possibility in the future.
Post by: Alfrodo on June 28, 2015, 11:52:25 am
Later, will it be possible to get Dwarves to hunt properly (as in, bringing the kill back to the fortress.) with melee weapons such as spears?
Alternatively, get your military to rough up the wildlife... and set up a butchers shop directly atop the corpse...
Post by: Alfrodo on June 29, 2015, 09:01:45 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on June 29, 2015, 11:46:21 pm
Will there be quests involving books or libraries?
You must venture to the return counter with this book within 3 days, or you shall surely suffer the wrath of the late fees!!!
Post by: Max™ on June 30, 2015, 04:16:44 am
'I don't know how to process an economic transaction where I don't receive something in exchange.'
"Fine, that'll be 300 dorfbucks and let's say I sold you your teeth so I don't have to knock them out."
'300 dorfbucks for my teeth?' *begins punching self in the mouth*
Post by: DG on June 30, 2015, 06:22:15 am
Post by: Toady One on July 01, 2015, 05:30:29 pm
Quote from: Inarius
If a visitor signs in and becomes a full member of the civilization, will he make engraving or artefact in relation to his former or his current civilisation ? I suppose he will do the same as a Dwarf would do (migrants also writes on walls about things they saw in their former locations, don't they ?), but I'm not sure.
Through all the places it decides on artwork, it's an unwholesome mixture of the creature's mind and the current site you are playing. That's not necessarily "wrong", but it could afford to be more systematized.
Quote from: Button
So... does that mean [visitors]'ll go crazy if they're stuck on the map too long?
Are visitors cool with leaving through the caverns?
You'll have some room beyond what normally happened with stranded visitors, and it'll let you know you are messing with somebody.
If I remember, there hasn't been any functioning army travel through the caverns once play begins and people have been stranded in the deep sites if they don't live in a fortress. I don't recall exactly what the issue is, but it'll need to be sorted out.
Quote from: MDFification
With the new visitors, how does the justice system interact with them? If they get upset and knock something over, do they get dragged into your jail for a bit? If one of them kills another, do your dwarves punish the murderer or is that left to an external justice tracker to handle?
Right now, all of the crimes that happen on the site are handled by dwarven justice.
Quote from: Cruxador
[regarding fort becoming dwarfless] Will the game notice the difference? I realize the answer is probably no for the upcoming release, since it's a very peripheral feature and not a normal use case anyway. But this relates to the idea of the world perceiving player intentions, which is, unless I'm mistaken, the biggest purpose of fortress start scenarios. Will those likely have the possibility to change during play? This also seems like it could related to army arc stuff once your active fort is treated more like a normal site for the purposes of wars and you (presumably, if I understand intended future design intentions correctly) can use nobles for politicking.
And not related to that, but also a start-scenario thing: Do you have any plans yet about adding social strata beyond noble/common, such as slaves? I got to thinking of that in connection with visitors and the "Explicit standing of different citizens vs. civilization authorities" note, but it seems like it would be pretty necessary for the prison colonies in general, and could be useful depending on how fulfilling of an implementation you want with religious sites, which would arguably have hierarchy based in faith and might have relevant religious precepts, and the mining companies and military citadels which would probably be differently organized compared to the relatively anarchic situation we've got now.
Yeah, the idea of embark scenarios is not to limit the game, but to make it more interesting by better understanding the situation that caused your dwarves to embark in the first place. Although some aspects of a given scenario might take a while to change or require specific mechanics that we won't get to in the initial release, it's all going to be built out of the same sorts of bits and pieces that bump against each other in the rest of the game, so it shouldn't be static.
Knight Otu mentioned that setting up an idea of status was a specific goal of that release. We haven't established a specific set of goal statuses or anything yet (and I'm not sure it'll even be set up like that), but the noble/common distinction isn't even the main target (and it already exists more than any other distinction in the game by virtue of the position/land holder mechanics). We have the criminal stuff and the economy and religions and guilds and all that we're looking forward to, and we don't yet have a fitting backbone for any of it. There are already slaves in the game (with the gobs and some humans), but they don't do anything and aren't thought about in any particular way. I imagine that'll just be something we'll have to figure out with the rest of it.
Quote from: Rezznov
Currently in the game, animal men from underground, such as Cave Swallow Men and Olm Men, can form bands of outcasts in the civilizations screen on legends. I have read you also plan on making animal men playable in adventure mode. My question is: Will it be possible to play as an animal man member of these crude animal man civilizations? Or, will we be restricted to animal men living in Dwarven, Human, Elven, and Goblin civilizations? Thanks!
Not at this point -- the animal people that become historical adventurer types are separated from their abstract-not-at-all-realized societies. We still need to do the underground civs, and the aboveground animal people in their natural habitats, however they live.
Quote from: Robsoie
In current version while megabeast/undead can still come, when playing Fortress mode goblin sieges (extremely) rarely happen and sometime not at all in dozen of years of fortress running. Will this be improved in the upcoming version ? or will all those multi-species mixing in fort will make goblin siege even less likely ?
There was one pathing error that has been fixed for the next version that should improve the frequencies in some cases (some mountain embarks). We'll have to see where it goes from there. The species mixing doesn't change anything.
Quote from: King Mir
With all these poets and philosophers in the world will there be fewer soldiers, hunters, beast tamers and other violent historic figures? Are worlds going to be a more peaceful and cultured places?
If I remember, I raised the numbers, though there might be a few fewer of the older professions. The human values determine the available scholars, but not the proportions of which professions are taken. Ideally, that would come up, but we haven't used the values in enough places.
Quote from: BesorgterZwerg
Will the scholars be able to study necromancer books? And even gain their power?
The trick is to get the books on site, which might require adventurer intervention until we get books moved out of towers in other ways. Once the book is there, then everything triggers as usual.
Quote from: palu
With the scenarios/law/property update, might we possibly see the return of the economy?
It won't be specifically in that release, but one of the central points of that release is to make it possible to implement an economy robustly. Then we'll have to decide whether it is time. There are a few other things we might want beforehand. Specifically, understanding the various industries and their processes and sites a bit better, and water transport, both of which might blow up any economic work if we don't have a handle on them first. Hard to say, though -- we need to think about which option is best, in whatever terms (the game, the code, etc). It might go the other way (real resources, production and caravans/trade first), or a completely different direction. The embark scenario framework is going to be somewhat disruptive, and we might not know until partway through that update which way it'll go... we'll have lot to choose from.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Will there be different burrow options for visitors/citizens/non-dwarves? What about alerts? How much control will we have over our visitors? Can I keep my visitors from running out into a goblin siege?
You'll at least be able to make certain meeting places off-limits to visitors and non-citizens, so they won't mill around there. I'm not sure what we'll need with the rest of the controls. You haven't been able to order merchants around, and I'm not sure I want you to be able to do that... perhaps giving them helpful hints to enchance or preserve their lives wouldn't be bad though.
Quote from: cybergon
Will the dabbling-to-legendary scaling of professions ever change? Specially now that the master-apprentice mechanic is a thing in world gen.
The changes don't impact anything immediately. I don't know what's going to happen in the future -- it could get very strange when we figure out how labors interact with innovations and adventure mode and all that.
Quote
Quote from: AlfrodoYour last post implies there are different research subjects from people like naturalists. How many more research fields are we going to see and are they going to be of any use? Are we going to see people like chemists, geologists, material scientists, and physicists making books too? An earlier post also implied stories can be told. Will books be a medium for storytelling?Quote from: tahu16What is your plan regarding the rest of the literature? Will we ever see novels, epics and other "entertaining" books?
As we've mentioned before, the innovations have not actually been tied into the game's industries yet, so that won't come up. We have naturalists, mathematicians, engineers, astronomers, historians, philosophers, doctors, chemists, and... I always forget one... it's nine, right? Dum de dum... maybe it's eight... [intervening walk to store] geographers!
Poetry books count as entertaining books I imagine. There are autobiographical adventures and alternate histories once these are innovated by historians, though I wouldn't count on those being entertaining to read as the player. Everything is pretty bare-bones right now. I anticipate other in-the-1400-cut-off forms of literature will receive similar treatment, whether they are derived from historians, poets, the festival angle, or something else entirely. We were originally going to have the necromancers write plays along with all their other writing way back when, but just ran out of time. I'm not sure where playwrights will fit into the overall scheme of things now, especially now that performances would be more or less required at the same time.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Today's update suggests that excessive alcohol will effect characters, including Dwarves, adversely. If lack of alcohol continues to effect Dwarves badly, and too much alcohol also effects them badly, how does one achieve the right balance in fortress mode?
We don't have rationing systems or other economic stuff, so it's really up to the dwarves now. Generally, some bad behavior and crimes and so forth should be anticipated from now on even with "perfect" play on your end. You might get the aforementioned controls later, as we get various frameworks up, but those will probably just bring new societal problems.
Quote from: falcc
When the tavern games update happens will there specifically be drinking games or will there just be games that happen in the same space as drinking? How about drinking contests?
and
Can vampires get drunk by drinking booze? Can vampires pick up the drunkenness syndrome from feeding on drunks?
I'd love to be able to have my vampire drink a bunch of hearty dwarves under the table in a contest, goad them into a fight, and then get pleasantly drunk from the losers afterwards.
I'm really not sure how it is going to shake out.
Alcohol is treated like a regular poison. I think vampires still get hit with those but are immune to most of the effects. So they don't get dizzy or nauseated, but they might still get a buzz, start a fight and pass out? I don't recall that bloodsuckers get blood syndromes from sucking people.
Quote from: Heph
Apart from dwarfs regarding booze will addiction be based on the material/syndrome? Will there be possible withdrawal effects now that you go into recreational stuff and effects?
I haven't done anything like that.
Quote from: Vattic
How will the effects of drinking take into account the unrealistically rare occurrence of drinking in fort mode? I half expect a similar issue to the were-creature one where it seems to last little time at all.
Are we likely to see some dwarves become the fort drunk?
On the topic of immoderation might we see abstinent dwarves at some point and if so is the slowing effect here to stay?
Are we likely to see creatures stagger about and move involuntarily?
Will booze stealing creatures get drunk?
There's a tag that lets effects be stretched out by a factor in fort mode (beyond the normal stretching). It gives us a bit of room to fit a full-fledged bender into the immoderate dwarf's rhythm of life.
Yeah, dwarves are different and some are more likely to run into trouble.
I'm not entirely certain how the most extreme abstinent dwarves are going to be handled in the long run. Either the slowing effect will go, or there just won't be dwarves that are that abstinent (at least personality-wise -- there could be room for philosophically abstinent dwarves).
The dizziness effect has never impacted pathing due to the nightmare that might bring to jobs and other activities. Hopefully there will be room for it in the future, but it seems like a can of worms right now.
Booze guzzlers are affected like other creatures.
Quote from: Alu
Now that you are integrating inns, will there be an innkeeper job?
If yes, will the innkeeper at some point also serve dwarfs in meeting halls?
We have the tavern keeper, and they serve drinks in the areas designated as part of the tavern, whether they are meeting halls or dining rooms.
Quote from: thedrelle
will this mean that some dwarves will use alcohol in extremis to deal with grief? will there be booze suicide spirals now?
They don't understand cause and effect with respect to syndrome emotions, so they don't know how to self-medicate.
Quote from: Nopenope
Toady, a couple of years ago, a very heated discussion took place about the possibility of an interface API, in which you joined in and explained why this was potentially harmful to your workflow. However, a long time has passed since then and the ingeniosity and skills of many prominent bay12 members has shown that such an interface is about to become a reality, what with third party tools like DFHack. In fact, the gap between the 2014 DF release and its dfhack equivalent has shown how much the ever growing userbase has become accustomed to these third party utilities making one's life easier, and this is likely to get worse as DF complexity rises and third party tools expand in scope. So my question is, will further development of third party tools eventually make you feel the dreaded pressure you mentioned back then? Would that prompt you to revise your current noncommital view towards such tools (causing you for instance to close the utilities forum) or affect your dev cycle priorities in any way?
In terms of people complaining to me, it hasn't become any worse. As the tools have developed, people have become dedicated to keeping things up to date (to the point of receiving financial support), and it seems to work. I'm not sure exactly how it works or what the delays are like, but it hasn't become an issue where people have tried to put any additional weight on me.
Quote from: HavingPhun
Toady, I am interested in how you generate the local maps in dwarf fortress, such as the maps that your adventurer and dwarfs run around in. How do you make the edges of each local map match up? How do you make sure that the elevation of a local map corresponds with the elevation of the world tile that it is within?
Also, what would you say was the most difficult and or interesting piece of creating the world generator for DF. Excluding legends and history. Is there anything else that you would like to eventually add or change with the world generation?
It generates 1-dimensional fractals for the edges, and it keeps edge data at different levels to sew things together. You could also use a more global method like perlin noise, etc. There are trade-offs. If I had a better handle on local modifications I might have switched over to a function that works globally, but as things stand I can stitch things well enough while maintaining complete control of the local shapes. Right now I track 48x48 blocks, 16x16 midlevel maps of each tile, and the world map. There's data for how rivers and underground caverns pass through edges and so forth -- it always has it up at the world map level, then when it pulls up a midlevel map, it generates all the crossing points etc. for use in generating local maps.
I'm no good with favorites/superlative type questions... the erosion and river-pathing stuff was interesting. It was cool to see the first division of the world into watersheds with the streams on every tile. We still have a lot of work to do on world gen, so... everything for the last question.
Quote from: Max^TM
Did I imagine this or were there ever plans to allow world gen to be restarted/the length between retire/abandon to be tweaked so you could do the normal couple of weeks or set it to like a year, ten, a hundred?
There are issues with putting the cat back in the bag, so world gen can't be practically restarted. The easiest thing would just be letting the calendar run longer, though that becomes impractical at some point. There'd need to be a new world gen written more or less to get up into the hundred year range, so that's way on the back burner. I'm not sure whether putting the cat back in the bag (ie, deleting/ignoring all expanded information) is easier than rewriting abstract world gen mechanics to respect the expanded information, but it's all hard.
Quote from: stinkasectomy
concerning inebriation becoming a syndrome, will this be related to body size ?
will a tall, broad, muscle-and-lard-bound dwarf never be drunk? and if an already small dwarf has a few combat amputations, will they die as soon as they touch a drop?
actually, better examples: will gnomes (being the smallest guzzlers) now run into booze stockpiles and just die. and will polar bears or other large drinkers be getting drunk at all?
having size based effects seems logical but gnomes will make things hard. while having drunkenness be size independent could lead to people (me) deliberately leaving a barrel of booze out to get and giants or ettins drunk before sending in the military.
that said, I was reading the raws and I noticed that dwarves have a liver that is 50% larger than a humans, so...
do you plan on making drunkenness (and/or any other syndromes) strength/duration be related to liver size?
(and then maybe make gnomes livers take up most of their chest cavities?)
It's related to body size, but the effect isn't so drastic that different dwarves are either dead or not drunk. I do fear for gnomes somewhat. Perhaps that's just the course of their lives.
The dwarven liver size was there for a reason, yeah, though I haven't decided how to take that one up. There'd need to be a whole new mechanic for relative bp sizes vs. syndromes, and I'm not sure I want to go there. It could just be a factor or shake itself out through the disease resistance att or whatever.
Quote from: NW_Kohaku
Toady, since we now have both retiring forts and you are adding in more free-wheeling caravans, traders, wanderers and hill-dwarves, plus there are going to be starting scenarios, I'm curious about how you want retired player forts to interact with active player forts in the long run. Are you going to try to get towards a retirement system where forts have saved import needs/export capacities or other pushes/pulls upon new player forts?
(I.E. build a new fort to support the next fort or sustain your last fort. "The mountainhomes need steel, set up a mine, and export iron or steel." "The mountainhomes is rich in steel, now we need you to build a watchpost at this location and train these steel-clad but rookie soldiers into stalwart defenders of the realm.")
Do you consider potential goals like potential "mock-simultaneous" play or taking steps to encourage succession multiplayer across multiple forts (sharing world saves after abandoning/retiring) as a means of encouraging play in a shared history worthwhile? For that matter, how much is this notion of compounding historic depth still a driver of your focus as a developer after all this time?
Yeah, we'd like to have retired forts continue on in every way possible, although some are clearly harder than others. It already works that way with migrants and baronies (to the extent they matter). Hill dwarves will be easy in this respect since they'll be separated from your fort to begin with. Production and trade are the hard ones (assuming we ignore impossible ones like forts having computers in them). We have pretty specific resource stockpiles stored for all of the non-player sites already, and getting retired forts into that system would be ideal -- then the issue would be deciding what the map/items look like when you load the fort's map again after a period of trade. It seems doable, with some fudging perhaps. Complex production chains are hard, but those are also hard on the non-player sites, especially when they involve custom reactions.
I think the succession stuff people have done has been among the most striking things that have happened with the game, and I'm not even sure I really need to encourage it specifically, but just keep adding in mechanics that make the experience more interesting. Respecting retired forts is in line with that, and respecting retired forts makes my life easier anyway -- having special exceptions makes coding more difficult (their saved maps/items/stockpiles/etc. are one of those issues, along with the time difference and the rest).
Having multiple games played in the same world is still the main goal we're aiming for. The forces of change have been slow in coming though, so we still haven't made the churning mess we want, and we spend time on other things that don't advance this goal. The embark scenario framework release is certainly a step in the direction of societal/economic change. The intervening artifact release on the other hand is more looking for other sorts of churn in a plotish direction. Aspects of it are pure fantasy/generation that aren't geared toward change immediately, though artifact powers and curses and that sort of thing will interact with resource use/production directly once we get there (allowing us famine etc., which counts as churn).
Quote from: Max^TM
Will barfights inspire troubles later on or is it forgive and forget type stuff for non-serious brawling?
If nobody dies, they'll be fine for now, I think. Death incidents are counted in relationship calculations, though ultimately their relationships are still kinda half-assed.
Quote from: Kogan Loloklam
Will forgotten beasts be able to infect syndromes like they can that are already linked? Paticularly Alcohol?
I'm not talking about alcohol breath. I'm talking about contact poisoning or other contamination issue that increases the alcohol consumption flag. Or other already present syndromes.
I haven't generated any of them like that. A creature in your raws could use the alcohol syndrome though. I might be misunderstanding though.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Hey Toady, can syndrome concentrations be reduced, or can syndromes be otherwise directly 'cured' rather than simply counter-acted (removing the syndrome, such that the afflicted isn't now afflicted with a syndrome with opposite effects, but is no longer affected by the original syndrome) now?
We haven't done anything like that yet.
Quote from: WordsandChaos
How do the taverns work for Elves or Goblins? Dwarves and humans seem like they'd be pretty standard 'put walls around a tap and some chairs' affair. Do Elves and Goblins have taverns? Do they even have a cultural equivalent, or are you thinking that Elves/Goblins do something radically different as a passtime?
It might shift as we have more time to do more things, but we're not doing anything ambitious for this time. I don't recall if goblins even make the building. Don't think so. Elf taverns are a touch abnormal but not too tree-y, like the market, so it accepts visitors so you don't need to climb.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Visitors are drawn from historical figures rather than randomly generated, right? Is it possible to follow around mercenaries, dance troupes and such in adventure mode and see them visit and settle in fortresses? Or to be a visitor yourself and petition for citizenship in one of your own retired forts?
Yeah, they are historical. You can follow them around, but there's no visible AI petition process in place outside of fortress mode. I'm not sure what we'll get for player adventurers, but we should know soon as we complete the performance stuff.
Quote from: kulik
Will I be able to recreate the Casablanca moment where the goblin occupation forces sing their songs in the Inn, and as I start to sing the anthem of oppressed folk other join me outvoicing the hated goblins?
He he he, it's probably more likely that people will just think you are rude for interrupting an ongoing activity. We will hope for slow improvement.
Quote from: NJW2000
Are coral FBs are a hint that sea FBs (AKA Krakens hype hype hype) will someday be added in the game?
Someday is always an odd thing with this game, but when we get to boats and multi-tile creatures, nature will take its course. One of the iconic things a multi-tile creature should do is use a giant tentacle to tear down a mast.
Quote from: blazing glory
Later, will it be possible to get Dwarves to hunt properly (as in, bringing the kill back to the fortress.) with melee weapons such as spears?
I don't have any specific plans for dwarf mode hunting, if I remember. Like most things, it might end up being expanded incidentally.
Quote from: Alfrodo
Will there be quests involving books or libraries?
I expect we'll see this more when we get to all the artifact quests in the next push after this one. Quests and all sorts of antics involving original books will happen on their own (with all the other artifacts) unless we explicitly rule them out.
Post by: Robsoie on July 01, 2015, 05:47:18 pm
Post by: Robsoie on July 01, 2015, 06:03:34 pm
Quote from: RobsoieIn current version while megabeast/undead can still come, when playing Fortress mode goblin sieges (extremely) rarely happen and sometime not at all in dozen of years of fortress running. Will this be improved in the upcoming version ? or will all those multi-species mixing in fort will make goblin siege even less likely ?
There was one pathing error that has been fixed for the next version that should improve the frequencies in some cases (some mountain embarks). We'll have to see where it goes from there. The species mixing doesn't change anything..
I imagine a goblin dark fortress launch an invasion to try to conquer your multi-species fortress.
Your fortress contains goblins that of course came from their original goblin site, that happens to be the one launching the invasion.
So invading goblins and defending ones may have some common faction/group membership and some may even be relatives.
With this multi-specie mix, will we then see much more loyalty cascades (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Faction#Loyalty_cascade) when siege is coming ?
Or will there be some change to that faction system ?
Post by: Vattic on July 02, 2015, 02:35:50 am
Post by: Kogan Loloklam on July 02, 2015, 07:04:58 am
I'm pretty sure procedural FBs pull from all available syndromes. So what I am asking is basically would a giant butterfly FB be able to infect the drunk syndrome into it's victim from it's poisonous powder in a manner that plays nice with current drunk syndrome, making an alcohol based drunk even drunker on FB butterfly dust.Quote from: Kogan LoloklamWill forgotten beasts be able to infect syndromes like they can that are already linked? Paticularly Alcohol?
I'm not talking about alcohol breath. I'm talking about contact poisoning or other contamination issue that increases the alcohol consumption flag. Or other already present syndromes.
I haven't generated any of them like that. A creature in your raws could use the alcohol syndrome though. I might be misunderstanding though.
But also anything with exposure flags. Will procedural based syndrome effects be able to tick a common flag. Like drunkenness. Taking them from buzzed to alcohol poisoned even though there was no alcohol.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on July 02, 2015, 07:06:46 am
Quote
The last time I went in there, we had another animal person sighting with a buggy peach faced love bird woman necromancer. She used to be a mercenary so she thought she was supposed to be bar-hopping, even though she had students back in her evil tower. That's fixed up now. It makes me look forward to a time when the boundaries of who is where can be a little more fuzzy.
Animal-people necromancers?! Barhopping mercenary Animal-people Necromancers?
I always had a thing for gothchicks but this game only keeps getting more awesome.
The fact that she was a merc is also interesting, heh i could even see still being a merc after becoming a necromantress. Raising the fallen for your work would make sense strategicly, collecting a few more minions and getting a bit of coin on the side. I mean the furniture in the towers, the materials for the dragonleather and diamond bound books need to be purchased as well and face it even as undieing thousand year old witch you want to get out for some recreation. So yeah looking forward too a world with less boundaries.
Post by: Knight Otu on July 02, 2015, 09:16:34 am
Post by: falcc on July 02, 2015, 12:57:15 pm
Booze guzzlers are affected like other creatures.
Does this mean creatures with the CURIOUSBEAST_GUZZLER tag can all be gotten drunk to some degree? Outside of tiny creatures like the gnomes would it be possible for creatures to drink themselves unconscious or to death if they're offered enough booze? I guess what I'm asking is whether I can get giants and ettins strategically drunk by setting out booze stockpiles.
This seems like the closest we've come to a tribute relationship with a megabeasts/semi-megabeasts so far.
Post by: Witty on July 02, 2015, 01:45:32 pm
Post by: Amperzand on July 02, 2015, 06:29:53 pm
Post by: Shashu on July 02, 2015, 10:32:40 pm
Quote
We should have our first adventure mode performers trying their very best to entertain the community in a few days.
Does this mean that Toady will be testing adventurer mode performers next? Or does it mean that we might see a release in the next few days?
Post by: Witty on July 03, 2015, 10:38:13 am
Post by: origamiscienceguy on July 04, 2015, 11:41:00 pm
Post by: Alfrodo on July 05, 2015, 01:44:04 am
Will a dwarf keep him/herself from consuming an unhealthy amount of booze?
Quote
They don't understand cause and effect with respect to syndrome emotions, so they don't know how to self-medicate.
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on July 05, 2015, 06:57:10 am
Quote from: thedrellewill this mean that some dwarves will use alcohol in extremis to deal with grief? will there be booze suicide spirals now?
They don't understand cause and effect with respect to syndrome emotions, so they don't know how to self-medicate.
Will this kind of thing still be implemented in the future? I'm particularly interested in seeing it used against not just grief/trauma, but also fears and phobias. (It's not wise, but it happens.)
Quote from: Max^TMWill barfights inspire troubles later on or is it forgive and forget type stuff for non-serious brawling?
Is it possible for dwarves of certain personality types to bond over tavern brawls, rather than have it be always solely a negative factor in their relationship?
Post by: Witty on July 05, 2015, 09:09:17 am
I recall you saying that the new format of the podcast would follow a more question and answer style now, which is certainly fine, but I also wouldn't mind having other DF-minded individuals to ask good questions when appropriate. A lot of useful information has come out from the dialogs you've had with Rainseeker and Captain.
Post by: Max™ on July 06, 2015, 10:48:52 pm
Will it be possible to spread knowledge of your deeds/increase your fame through these performances? Will the success of doing so depend on your skill in the performance?
So just basic telling people will work as it does, while blowing people away with a bardic tale and dance will lead to it being spread faster/people recognizing the tale itself and not just the deed?
Post by: NJW2000 on July 07, 2015, 03:00:03 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 07, 2015, 04:11:56 am
Post by: vjmdhzgr on July 07, 2015, 07:27:45 am
Bit of an obvious question, but will performances affect your fame, and will that mean you can get more people to follow you? Also, is fame one absolute value for each civ, or will a bard be able to get more singers than spearmen as companions?Well if you can gain fame, then it's now the only way to do so without also being known as a killer by everyone, so there's that at least already.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 07, 2015, 07:40:41 am
Post by: Dirst on July 07, 2015, 11:38:56 am
Oh god, adventurer performances make more sense than I was thinking at first.It'd be hilarious to get fame from a masterful telling of a rather pedantic achievement. Basically the beginning of stand-up comedy and/or motivational speakers.
Will it be possible to spread knowledge of your deeds/increase your fame through these performances? Will the success of doing so depend on your skill in the performance?
So just basic telling people will work as it does, while blowing people away with a bardic tale and dance will lead to it being spread faster/people recognizing the tale itself and not just the deed?
"So he killed a dingo. And?"
"I guess you just had to be there."
Post by: NJW2000 on July 07, 2015, 12:08:28 pm
This is an oak wood billboard. The inscription on the billboard reads,
Tonight, Urist "Stonecrafter-12" Roofbodice come all the way from Highanvil to perform his one-man semiautobiographical play,
"How I Mastered the Gabbro Goblet, and Other Metamorphic Merchandise".
This play refers to the creation of a masterwork gabbro mug in Highanvil by the dwarf Urist "Stonecrafter-12" Roofbodice, in the summer of 295.
Post by: Ghills on July 07, 2015, 01:48:03 pm
Dwarves are typically highly racist and isolationist, making multi-species forts a rarity in fantasy. How will that be reflected in-game, do we get different racism values between civs or options to have a dwarf-only fort?
You've mentioned that drunkenness is related to bodysize, but that suggests that humans will be less likely to be drunk than dwarves, which sounds backwards. Especially since alcohol functions like water in dwarven biology (otherwise they would not suffer slowness when drinking only water). Will there be a method by which dwarves are less susceptible to drunkeness?
Post by: Button on July 07, 2015, 02:32:14 pm
You've mentioned that drunkenness is related to bodysize, but that suggests that humans will be less likely to be drunk than dwarves, which sounds backwards. Especially since alcohol functions like water in dwarven biology (otherwise they would not suffer slowness when drinking only water). Will there be a method by which dwarves are less susceptible to drunkeness?
He also said that drunkenness will be counteracted by disease resistance. If dwarven disease resistance is sufficiently high relative to human disease resistance, it would balance out their relative sizes.
Additionally, it was my impression that Toady is removing the negative effects of sobriety as part of this next release.
Post by: Robsoie on July 07, 2015, 03:21:19 pm
Currently marriage are a male and a female start with socializing, developing the relation into the marriage in the end.
That's one of the way it happens in real world, but in real world there are very different cultures, in which marriage does not happen this way, by example marriage can be decided by parents of the male and the female, marriage can be polygamy with a man being married to several female (polygyny) and more rarely a female being married to several males (polyandry) and probably more ways.
Will a civ , influenced by a specific philosophy/philospher, be able to change its marriage culture to fit a different way from what happens in current version ?
Additionally, about religions, will there be an equivalent to philosophers in the religious domain, spreading their religion ? i can imagine with some cults trying to gain power, or to isolate from other, or to influence rulers, etc... even leading a civilisation to wage war against another, even within the same entity ?
Post by: Vattic on July 07, 2015, 03:39:11 pm
You've mentioned that drunkenness is related to bodysize, but that suggests that humans will be less likely to be drunk than dwarves, which sounds backwards. Especially since alcohol functions like water in dwarven biology (otherwise they would not suffer slowness when drinking only water). Will there be a method by which dwarves are less susceptible to drunkeness?
He also said that drunkenness will be counteracted by disease resistance. If dwarven disease resistance is sufficiently high relative to human disease resistance, it would balance out their relative sizes.
Additionally, it was my impression that Toady is removing the negative effects of sobriety as part of this next release.
Only could be.
I'm not entirely certain how the most extreme abstinent dwarves are going to be handled in the long run. Either the slowing effect will go, or there just won't be dwarves that are that abstinent (at least personality-wise -- there could be room for philosophically abstinent dwarves).
So it seems the love of booze is more a long standing cultural thing than biological, though it has lead to their big livers.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on July 07, 2015, 07:41:02 pm
Currently marriage are a male and a female start with socializing, developing the relation into the marriage in the end.Well, since 0.40 it could be a male and a male or a female and a female.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 08, 2015, 03:45:48 am
Post by: Putnam on July 08, 2015, 03:53:06 am
Post by: NJW2000 on July 08, 2015, 04:16:17 am
Post by: Robsoie on July 08, 2015, 06:26:44 am
Currently marriage are a male and a female start with socializing, developing the relation into the marriage in the end.Well, since 0.40 it could be a male and a male or a female and a female.
Ah yes, i completely forgot about that one.
That then add more to my question about the different types of marriages in regards to specific civ culture changes :
Will there be cultures spread by a philosopher into a civ that would set them to ignore or allow or disallow gay marriages ?
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on July 08, 2015, 07:10:56 am
Post by: Robsoie on July 08, 2015, 07:24:53 am
And those customs, culture, organisations were never set in stone, they were always changing through war/invasion/immigrations/philosophy/religion that were reshapping them constantly.
Post by: LordBaal on July 08, 2015, 08:13:00 am
Post by: Robsoie on July 08, 2015, 08:18:01 am
Post by: Button on July 08, 2015, 10:11:48 am
I don't actually keep giant insects, but everyone complains about how their GCS are homosexual, as they're much more valuable when breedable. I chose this example because not only is failure to breed GCS frustrating, it is also odd, as while I've obseverved animals like horses and cats being a little experimental in this regard, I am not sure how possible it even is for two same-gendered insects to engage in sexual activity, or for a male insect to choose to do so solely with male rather than female ones, or vice versa. I'm aware that people have suggested that this change, I just wondered if its going to happen.
First, homosexual insects are attested irl. Insect sexual attractions are usually based on pheromones, so if the pheromone preference circuits are wonky, you get gay bugs.
Second, it's a known bug that non-sapient critters have the same orientation distributions as sapient critters, which bumps up their apparent-asexuality numbers like whoa. It does this by creating a category of critters which experience attraction but don't want to get married. Obviously this doesn't make sense for most animals, but the code acknowledges it and treats them as effectively sterile.
Only 5% of (default) critters truly refuse to engage with members of the opposite sex - it's just that an additional 20% won't create children because they're afraid of commitment.
Minor plug, this is among the bugs fixed in the Modest Mod.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 08, 2015, 12:48:04 pm
Post by: Inarius on July 08, 2015, 03:50:50 pm
Quote
That raises the question (for me at least): Were people homophobic in the medieval ages?
If by "medieval ages" you meant medieval ages in Europe (if you don't, then the term "medieval ages" doesn't refer to anything, so please be more specific), the reply is yes, a lot. There could be acts that would be considered as homosexual acts today, sometimes in Orders, chivalry and places with rituals and only men, but it was as such forbidden and heavily repressed. (Think of the Knights Templar, who were accused of homosexuality and burnt for that, which gives you a strong evidence of how it was viewed).
Post by: Mel_Vixen on July 08, 2015, 04:55:06 pm
QuoteThat raises the question (for me at least): Were people homophobic in the medieval ages?
If by "medieval ages" you meant medieval ages in Europe (if you don't, then the term "medieval ages" doesn't refer to anything, so please be more specific), the reply is yes, a lot. There could be acts that would be considered as homosexual acts today, sometimes in Orders, chivalry and places with rituals and only men, but it was as such forbidden and heavily repressed. (Think of the Knights Templar, who were accused of homosexuality and burnt for that, which gives you a strong evidence of how it was viewed).
But thats only for the European Christian places. History has seen many Cultures and pre-christian Romans and Greeks were OK with homosexuality. There were even marriages in 2nd century Rome with binding contracts. Similar things can be said for Pre-columbian natives in the Americas. Before the African States were overrun by Missionaries they were also more egalitarian towards homosexuals but that turned around pretty much with Catholics and Evangelicals - today they like to spout the Myth that everyone was hetero before the West interfered.
Asia has its own history but there to many places werent as bad as Medieval Europe.
Europe isnt the Navel of the world, there were so many things happening elsewhere and personally i see Dwarf fortress humans as pretty much prechristian. Then again i do hope that we get some much better Civilisations stuff, laws and such were the legality and asseption can bet better reflected.
Post by: monk12 on July 08, 2015, 05:43:42 pm
Certainly as regards DF marriage (and culture in general) I expect there will be a range of taboos and particular social conventions about all sorts of things generated on a per-civ basis. Whether and how much Philosophers can affect that is a fair question.
Post by: Xazo-Tak on July 08, 2015, 08:58:43 pm
*slaughter this guy*
"I slaughtered this guy!"
*slaughter that guy*
"I slaughtered that guy!"
Post by: vjmdhzgr on July 08, 2015, 09:22:55 pm
Post by: Inarius on July 09, 2015, 02:52:02 am
Quote
Europe isnt the Navel of the world, there were so many things happening elsewhere and personally i see Dwarf fortress humans as pretty much prechristian. Then again i do hope that we get some much better Civilisations stuff, laws and such were the legality and asseption can bet better reflected.
I haven't said it was. The question of jwoodward48df was about medieval times, and as "Medieval ages" only exists in Europe, and is well defined in space and time, I replied. Of course, if you go back (Roman Ages), or further (Renaissance) or elsewhere, the reply is different. That's why I told it was only right for "Medieval ages", as asked in the question.
On the other hand, I quite agree with you about the need to make DF more than a medieval-copy. I think that the choice of 1400's is good, because at that time, a lot of civilisation where about the same level of development (China, Islamic world, Europe).
Post by: Cruxador on July 09, 2015, 04:03:40 am
I haven't said it was. The question of jwoodward48df was about medieval times, and as "Medieval ages" only exists in Europe, and is well defined in space and time, I replied. Of course, if you go back (Roman Ages), or further (Renaissance) or elsewhere, the reply is different. That's why I told it was only right for "Medieval ages", as asked in the question.I wouldn't say it's well-defined in Europe either. When does late antiquity end and the early middle ages begin? The crowning of Charlemagne has Holy Roman Emperor? When does the late middle ages end? The Peace of Westphalia? Those are sort of the most well-regarded dates, certainly with regards to medieval feudalism, social order, and the role of the church which are the biggest things we think of as defining the medieval period, but they're more of a German history than a European history.
Post by: expwnent on July 09, 2015, 04:18:29 am
Will I be able to sing songs of my defeated foes mid-battle?
*slaughter this guy*
"I slaughtered this guy!"
*slaughter that guy*
"I slaughtered that guy!"
Note to self: never lose a fight to Wayne Brady.
Post by: Button on July 09, 2015, 11:36:07 am
Obviously Emperor Ai and Dong Xian weren't married, but Imperial marriage wasn't exactly about love.
Also, I've seen and typed the word Emperor so much in looking up the details for and revising this post that it has ceased to look like a word.
Post by: Ghills on July 09, 2015, 12:51:38 pm
You've mentioned that drunkenness is related to bodysize, but that suggests that humans will be less likely to be drunk than dwarves, which sounds backwards. Especially since alcohol functions like water in dwarven biology (otherwise they would not suffer slowness when drinking only water). Will there be a method by which dwarves are less susceptible to drunkeness?
He also said that drunkenness will be counteracted by disease resistance. If dwarven disease resistance is sufficiently high relative to human disease resistance, it would balance out their relative sizes.
Additionally, it was my impression that Toady is removing the negative effects of sobriety as part of this next release.
I don't think any of that is confirmed.
He says "It could just be a factor or shake itself out through the disease resistance att or whatever." (emphasis added)
and
"I'm not entirely certain how the most extreme abstinent dwarves are going to be handled in the long run. Either the slowing effect will go, or there just won't be dwarves that are that abstinent (at least personality-wise -- there could be room for philosophically abstinent dwarves)."
So no, sounds like the slowing effect is still in, and we don't know what impact disease resistance will have. Unless I missed a post.
Post by: falcc on July 09, 2015, 09:04:57 pm
Post by: Max™ on July 11, 2015, 10:03:59 pm
Oh god, adventurer performances make more sense than I was thinking at first.This was just answered partially at least.
Will it be possible to spread knowledge of your deeds/increase your fame through these performances? Will the success of doing so depend on your skill in the performance?
So just basic telling people will work as it does, while blowing people away with a bardic tale and dance will lead to it being spread faster/people recognizing the tale itself and not just the deed?
Post by: Cruxador on July 12, 2015, 08:10:37 am
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2015, 08:11:09 am
Post by: MrWiggles on July 12, 2015, 06:55:37 pm
Is reputation as an artist going to get broadened to include non-performing arts which are already in the game, such as sculpting/statuary?I would presume, eventually.
Post by: Mr S on July 13, 2015, 03:15:28 pm
Like dose engravings of masterful POSTS, you mean?
FTFY
Post by: Scoops Novel on July 17, 2015, 04:22:22 am
I know you want to avoid the convention of "+20 flaming swords", and that artifacts are meant to be a rarity. Yet, a little (if commonplace) magic does keep things interesting in games like D&D, Skyrim, and Dungeon Crawl.
Masterpieces are currently the next best thing to Artifacts. Still, potions are planned, and Threetoe's stories seem to have a bit of lesser "hedge magic". I think Dwarf fortress can provide context to "throwaway" items in ways other games can't, and it doesn't have to signpost their effect's either.
Furthermore, judging by
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
What do you think?
Post by: Scoops Novel on July 17, 2015, 04:34:09 am
Will you add some method for adventurers or fortress citizens to learn how to read soon? Will fortress mode scribes even need to know how to read? And finally will there be any reason to read books in adventurer mode?
Will I be able to sing songs of my defeated foes mid-battle?
*slaughter this guy*
"I slaughtered this guy!"
*slaughter that guy*
"I slaughtered that guy!"
Is reputation as an artist going to get broadened to include non-performing arts which are already in the game, such as sculpting/statuary?
Limegreen guys! FTFY
Post by: Greiger on July 17, 2015, 06:24:12 pm
/me ducks out the door to avoid thrown beer mugs.
Post by: Putnam on July 17, 2015, 08:32:55 pm
anyway there are definitely syndrome effects associated with the drunkenness system so it should probably be the latter
Post by: Max™ on July 17, 2015, 09:12:30 pm
Do you have any plans for lower order "magical" items in the Artifact arc?I thought that was basically what the quality levels are. A masterwork is a +x sword or whatnot.
I know you want to avoid the convention of "+20 flaming swords", and that artifacts are meant to be a rarity. Yet, a little (if commonplace) magic does keep things interesting in games like D&D, Skyrim, and Dungeon Crawl.
Masterpieces are currently the next best thing to Artifacts. Still, potions are planned, and Threetoe's stories seem to have a bit of lesser "hedge magic". I think Dwarf fortress can provide context to "throwaway" items in ways other games can't, and it doesn't have to signpost their effect's either.
Furthermore, judging byit seems like mundane equipment could be a lot more- unexpected.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
What do you think?
Post by: Scoops Novel on July 17, 2015, 11:30:18 pm
Post by: Max™ on July 18, 2015, 06:34:54 am
Post by: Robsoie on July 18, 2015, 02:46:05 pm
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Quality
note that there's a lot of "unknown"
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on July 19, 2015, 09:34:55 am
Will there be any changes/additions to Legends mode, and if so, which are they?
Post by: falcc on July 19, 2015, 09:41:46 am
Will you be able to drink/sleep/dance at a tavern from your retired fort in adventure mode?
Post by: Max™ on July 19, 2015, 02:17:38 pm
Post by: dakenho on July 20, 2015, 01:57:18 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on July 20, 2015, 04:32:08 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on July 20, 2015, 08:47:58 pm
Many games site your work as inspiration/influence to their game, and many games seek to be fortress likes, do you ever worry about other games outpacing dwarf fortress?
I realize your question is for Toady One to answer, but it occurs to me that Dwarf Fortress is not a commercial game. If I were in Toady's shoes, anyone who bases a game off Dwarf Fortress is free advertising. I am curious what he thinks.
Post by: DarkwingUK on July 21, 2015, 03:05:00 am
Since last year's release we have been slowly getting more news of the outside world as we play in fortress mode. For me, it is fun and exciting to hear that a nearby fortress has been under attack, or that someone has stepped down from the nobility and someone else has taken their place.
My question: is it likely that for this release or one of the upcoming releases, you will put in an ability for us to open the world map while in fortress mode? Simply having the ability to see which cities are where would make that news much more accessible and engaging.
Also, with the ability for people to tell stories and sing songs, I imagine that with the upcoming release, we will have visitors coming to our taverns and sharing even more news from the outside world.
As we have with the outpost liaison, would there be a similar notification or interaction system with tavern visitors?
Post by: Max™ on July 21, 2015, 11:17:04 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on July 21, 2015, 11:37:33 am
Post by: LordBaal on July 21, 2015, 12:42:57 pm
Other interesting idea/suggestion would be to send an explorer that take "snapshots" of the arounds of your fortress, each time he comes back you can see what he "recorded", that's it, the shape of the terrain, were trees are, if there where some animals. The better memory the dwarf have, the most detailed and accurate the description is. You could enter those as simple snapshots without being able to explore beyond it, move or do thing on it. Kind of like those snapshots of fortress that some people upload on the internet with some kind of black magic I don't know.
But I'm digressing. On point being able to momentarily "retire" the fortress, load the arounds and then come back could be pretty awesome.
Post by: Alfrodo on July 21, 2015, 12:56:49 pm
Post by: mifki on July 22, 2015, 02:07:19 am
^Now I'm wondering if it would be possible to put something like the adventurer travel map above the fort mode minimap with dfhack.
This gave me an idea of instantiating an adventure mode screen on top of the fortress screen. It somewhat worked and I was able to walk around, and my dwarves were talking to each other... Most likely useless but very fun.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on July 22, 2015, 08:04:37 am
Why are goblin sieges so small? The largest one I've seen had 30 goblins. In the previous version the sieges were much larger, and armies in world gen seem to consist of hundreds or even thousands of soldiers.
Why don't the besieging goblins have cavalry? Haven't seen a single goblin riding a creature in this version.
Will goblin warriors become more skilled in the future? It's very easy to train dwarves to become highly skilled fighters in a relatively small amount of time, so the few goblins that do invade my fortress are easily defeated. This reminds me, will it take a longer time for dwarves to become skilled combatants in the future?
Post by: DarkwingUK on July 22, 2015, 02:28:01 pm
About seeing around your fortress, I think that it would be really memory and cpu intensive to have the fortress mode open, unless the parts of the map are separated and loaded individually as it's own site, one by one (obviously not at the same time). It would be like managing several fortress at the same time. Which granted would be really cool, but we(and our computers) can't manage a simple one, let alone several at the same time.
Other interesting idea/suggestion would be to send an explorer that take "snapshots" of the arounds of your fortress, each time he comes back you can see what he "recorded", that's it, the shape of the terrain, were trees are, if there where some animals. The better memory the dwarf have, the most detailed and accurate the description is. You could enter those as simple snapshots without being able to explore beyond it, move or do thing on it. Kind of like those snapshots of fortress that some people upload on the internet with some kind of black magic I don't know.
But I'm digressing. On point being able to momentarily "retire" the fortress, load the arounds and then come back could be pretty awesome.
Post by: Alfrodo on July 22, 2015, 02:35:42 pm
I.e. Will it be similar to the current state of strange moods or like engravings?
Post by: Vattic on July 22, 2015, 02:39:42 pm
Quote
I've been doing the particulars of the scholar occupation in the fort over the last few days, mostly making sure it plays nice with world generation and that everything advances at roughly the same rate. This means that having one random dwarf assigned to the library with no skills might not advance the state of the world's knowledge even after years of confused research (as I did with my miner, who immediately started pondering whether probing would make a good surgical technique). You can make quite a bit of progress if you attract some dedicated scholars and support them with your own scholars and scribes, probably more than any world generation site over the same number of years since you can expend all your effort toward the work, but it still takes time. Depending on how gregarious they are, scholars will tend toward discussing their topic with other researchers or working by themselves. Scholars will read books that you have on hand to avoid duplicating results, though I haven't yet duplicated the master-apprentice model from world gen (I'll probably have time to do something simple there), and they can commit their results to writing (which the scribes will then copy).From the dev log (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/).
Post by: Alfrodo on July 22, 2015, 03:12:20 pm
QuoteI've been doing the particulars of the scholar occupation in the fort over the last few days, mostly making sure it plays nice with world generation and that everything advances at roughly the same rate. This means that having one random dwarf assigned to the library with no skills might not advance the state of the world's knowledge even after years of confused research (as I did with my miner, who immediately started pondering whether probing would make a good surgical technique). You can make quite a bit of progress if you attract some dedicated scholars and support them with your own scholars and scribes, probably more than any world generation site over the same number of years since you can expend all your effort toward the work, but it still takes time. Depending on how gregarious they are, scholars will tend toward discussing their topic with other researchers or working by themselves. Scholars will read books that you have on hand to avoid duplicating results, though I haven't yet duplicated the master-apprentice model from world gen (I'll probably have time to do something simple there), and they can commit their results to writing (which the scribes will then copy).From the dev log (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/).
Ah.
I was thinking more about the artsy/poetry books, though. Rather than research. I'm guessing its more of the same though.
But considering that his literature examples included Historical Adventures and Alternate histories, it's probably the same.
Post by: Button on July 22, 2015, 03:25:15 pm
Post by: Alfrodo on July 22, 2015, 04:38:01 pm
But I didn't remember that post because... well. look to the left.
Post by: Button on July 22, 2015, 05:05:31 pm
I remember, I was just wondering how books would come into being in Fortress mode.
But I didn't remember that post because... well. look to the left.
That was more directed at some posters further up :).
Post by: Max™ on July 23, 2015, 01:12:07 am
Well THAT sounds fascinating as hell!^Now I'm wondering if it would be possible to put something like the adventurer travel map above the fort mode minimap with dfhack.
This gave me an idea of instantiating an adventure mode screen on top of the fortress screen. It somewhat worked and I was able to walk around, and my dwarves were talking to each other... Most likely useless but very fun.
Post by: Vattic on July 25, 2015, 11:05:55 am
Why are goblin sieges so small? The largest one I've seen had 30 goblins. In the previous version the sieges were much larger, and armies in world gen seem to consist of hundreds or even thousands of soldiers.They at least can be larger than 30, but reports of this are rare and tend to be from fairly long lived forts.
Will goblin warriors become more skilled in the future?
Quote
More highly trained attacking soldiers when approprateFrom the improved sieges section of the dev page (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html).
Post by: Max™ on July 26, 2015, 12:36:33 am
Quote from: Toady One
This doesn't impact specific ethics yet, so you won't have to worry that an elf-written book will make all your dwarves start eating dead bodies, but such a thing is now threatened for a later date by these changes.Thus were the book burnings and inquisitions of later versions set in motion.
Post by: endlessblaze on July 26, 2015, 12:40:36 am
Quote from: Toady OneThis doesn't impact specific ethics yet, so you won't have to worry that an elf-written book will make all your dwarves start eating dead bodies, but such a thing is now threatened for a later date by these changes.Thus were the book burnings and inquisitions of later versions set in motion.
book burnings? armok no, think about it, think of all the elf, and goblin bone bolts.
Post by: falcc on July 26, 2015, 12:46:17 pm
It's not quite as exciting as an ethics shift, but it'd be kind of neat to set your most radical dwarves to creating philosophical treatises and watch moods change in your fort. Especially if it can impact things like religiosity that determine needs.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 26, 2015, 07:18:27 pm
It would be interesting if gods didn't have only one type of controlled magic to bestow.
Post by: Knight Otu on July 27, 2015, 09:14:58 am
Do you plan to add randomly generated books of magic(not just necromancy)?
It would be interesting if gods didn't have only one type of controlled magic to bestow.
Eventually, yes. That may be a topic Toady hits in the World-Gen Artifacts releases, even.
Post by: LordBaal on July 27, 2015, 09:45:01 am
Post by: Dirst on July 27, 2015, 09:52:39 am
Would be possible to have some impromptu poem or sing a song made on the fly on a conversation, you know, in the sake of the arts of seduction?Anyone who taunts Giant Cave Spiders with Tomnoddy and Attercop will be summarily executed :)
Post by: MobRules on July 28, 2015, 10:38:12 am
Why are goblin sieges so small? The largest one I've seen had 30 goblins. In the previous version the sieges were much larger, and armies in world gen seem to consist of hundreds or even thousands of soldiers.They at least can be larger than 30, but reports of this are rare and tend to be from fairly long lived forts.Will goblin warriors become more skilled in the future?QuoteMore highly trained attacking soldiers when approprateFrom the improved sieges \section of the dev page (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html).
I just got a siege of 90 goblins and trolls at my DF2014 fort. (Though it is a dozen years old, and at a point where a siege that size was a mere inconvenience rather than a challenge)
Post by: Alfrodo on July 28, 2015, 10:48:46 am
Why are goblin sieges so small? The largest one I've seen had 30 goblins. In the previous version the sieges were much larger, and armies in world gen seem to consist of hundreds or even thousands of soldiers.They at least can be larger than 30, but reports of this are rare and tend to be from fairly long lived forts.Will goblin warriors become more skilled in the future?QuoteMore highly trained attacking soldiers when approprateFrom the improved sieges \section of the dev page (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html).
I just got a siege of 90 goblins and trolls at my DF2014 fort. (Though it is a dozen years old, and at a point where a siege that size was a mere inconvenience rather than a challenge)
You are a lucky man. I have to get my founding dwarves to sneak into goblin territory to get that.
Will reading philosophy books in adventure mode modify your own adventurer's values / ethics?
Post by: MrWiggles on July 28, 2015, 08:57:12 pm
Probably, there are recorded instances where the player's pawn, is crying from the action that the player is forcing the pawn to do, as it violates their mores and ethics. Though Toadyone and ThreeToe have said that they wouldnt ever make the game prevent a player's action because it went against morals and ethics.Why are goblin sieges so small? The largest one I've seen had 30 goblins. In the previous version the sieges were much larger, and armies in world gen seem to consist of hundreds or even thousands of soldiers.They at least can be larger than 30, but reports of this are rare and tend to be from fairly long lived forts.Will goblin warriors become more skilled in the future?QuoteMore highly trained attacking soldiers when approprateFrom the improved sieges \section of the dev page (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html).
I just got a siege of 90 goblins and trolls at my DF2014 fort. (Though it is a dozen years old, and at a point where a siege that size was a mere inconvenience rather than a challenge)
You are a lucky man. I have to get my founding dwarves to sneak into goblin territory to get that.
Will reading philosophy books in adventure mode modify your own adventurer's values / ethics?
Post by: Alfrodo on July 28, 2015, 09:57:19 pm
Quote
Probably, there are recorded instances where the player's pawn, is crying from the action that the player is forcing the pawn to do, as it violates their mores and ethics. Though Toadyone and ThreeToe have said that they wouldnt ever make the game prevent a player's action because it went against morals and ethics.
So I could get my adventurer to read Goblin philosophy to make them not sad?
Excellent.
Post by: MrWiggles on July 28, 2015, 10:20:12 pm
QuoteProbably, there are recorded instances where the player's pawn, is crying from the action that the player is forcing the pawn to do, as it violates their mores and ethics. Though Toadyone and ThreeToe have said that they wouldnt ever make the game prevent a player's action because it went against morals and ethics.
So I could get my adventurer to read Goblin philosophy to make them not sad?
Excellent.
Unless the raws have been changed, Goblins don't get sad because they're incapable of empathy. Its quality of their creature.
Post by: Spish on July 30, 2015, 05:13:18 pm
A tag, you say? Is it possible for intelligent megabeasts/semimegas to join civilizations, or perhaps even player fortresses in this manner?Quote from: SpishSince wild animal men are now eligible for immigration, will it also be possible to mod feral creatures like, for instance, gnomes and trolls to be able to join civilizations?
It'll be possible to mod it, though only gorlaks have the setting in vanilla. The game doesn't recognize animal people in any special way -- I've just put a new creature tag in their creature variation (and the gorlak def).
Post by: Max™ on July 30, 2015, 11:01:58 pm
You can actually form a band and go from town to town trying to get famous.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 31, 2015, 01:42:14 am
Post by: NJW2000 on July 31, 2015, 03:32:07 am
Heck, I could see that happening in fortress mode:
"Urist McCandyarmour cancels kill Noku Evilhell the Gruesome Slayer of Gods: no music."
Post by: jwest23 on July 31, 2015, 08:43:33 am
You can actually form a band and go from town to town trying to get famous.
"We're on a mission from Armok."
Post by: monk12 on July 31, 2015, 12:40:20 pm
I think he implied that they had to have a bit of a taste for music... wonder if they'd demand a song before every fight they got involved with :P
Heck, I could see that happening in fortress mode:
"Urist McCandyarmour cancels kill Noku Evilhell the Gruesome Slayer of Gods: no music."
I think that was just for the people who would perform with you; whether you can get a "Glory or Death" follower to serve as roadie is another thing (I'd assume so, but who knows?)
Post by: Dirst on July 31, 2015, 01:35:52 pm
With the worlds of Dwarf Fortress being somewhat dangerous, is it possible to hire fighting types with no real interest in the arts to join your troupe as bodyguards?You could always have some companions that aren't members of the troupe. Brings up a related question, though:
Is it possible for the player to establish a troupe and leave it, with the troupe remaining functional?
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on July 31, 2015, 02:29:32 pm
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2015, 04:25:34 pm
Quote from: Robsoie
I imagine a goblin dark fortress launch an invasion to try to conquer your multi-species fortress.
Your fortress contains goblins that of course came from their original goblin site, that happens to be the one launching the invasion.
So invading goblins and defending ones may have some common faction/group membership and some may even be relatives.
With this multi-specie mix, will we then see much more loyalty cascades when siege is coming ?
Or will there be some change to that faction system ?
The whole cascade thing shouldn't be as common, generally, due to all the rewrites over the years, though I'm not certain of the various bugs. It doesn't mark permanent enemies the way it used to.
Quote from: Kogan Loloklam
would a giant butterfly FB be able to infect the drunk syndrome into it's victim from it's poisonous powder in a manner that plays nice with current drunk syndrome, making an alcohol based drunk even drunker on FB butterfly dust.
But also anything with exposure flags. Will procedural based syndrome effects be able to tick a common flag. Like drunkenness. Taking them from buzzed to alcohol poisoned even though there was no alcohol.
The FBs don't know how to use various plant alcohol syndromes from the raws. There would need to be a system in place that tells them which tags/classes it is okay for them to co-opt, and there isn't anything like that yet.
Quote from: falcc
Does this mean creatures with the CURIOUSBEAST_GUZZLER tag can all be gotten drunk to some degree? Outside of tiny creatures like the gnomes would it be possible for creatures to drink themselves unconscious or to death if they're offered enough booze? I guess what I'm asking is whether I can get giants and ettins strategically drunk by setting out booze stockpiles.
I don't remember how much the curious beasts guzzle and guzzle... haven't looked at it for years, but yeah, if they drink and drink, you should be able to take them out. I don't recall it checking the fullness value, which would presumably save them if it did (since max fullness doesn't yet vary with size).
Quote from: origamiscienceguy
Will a dwarf keep him/herself from consuming an unhealthy amount of booze?
It isn't currently something they understand, but I'm going to balance it out so that only the extremest gluttons in rare circumstances will off themselves, if I get it right.
Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
Will [drunken self-medication] still be implemented in the future? I'm particularly interested in seeing it used against not just grief/trauma, but also fears and phobias. (It's not wise, but it happens.)
We don't have any specific plans, so it's like everything else at this point.
Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
Is it possible for dwarves of certain personality types to bond over tavern brawls, rather than have it be always solely a negative factor in their relationship?
There's nothing like that at this point, though I'm not sure it is considered a negative either. It's not the same as tantrum fistfights, anyway.
Quote from: Witty
Toady, because of the schedule conflicts you've had with Rainseeker and Captaintastic, would you ever be open to inviting other forum members to DFtalk?
We've had enough trouble getting together the Q&A episodes that I can't really imagine setting up anything more complicated at this point. If we got back into a rhythm with the regular episodes I imagine the format might be expanded, but it hasn't happened yet.
Quote from: Max^TM
Will it be possible to spread knowledge of your deeds/increase your fame through these performances? Will the success of doing so depend on your skill in the performance?
So just basic telling people will work as it does, while blowing people away with a bardic tale and dance will lead to it being spread faster/people recognizing the tale itself and not just the deed?
There isn't an added skill bonus to reputation for the incident knowledge passed, since there isn't yet an easy way to attach the method of spread to the rumor or anything like that, and there's no overall independent "spread strength" that can be acted on. You can pass basic information through poems/music.
Quote from: NJW2000
Bit of an obvious question, but will performances affect your fame, and will that mean you can get more people to follow you? Also, is fame one absolute value for each civ, or will a bard be able to get more singers than spearmen as companions?
Yeah, your performance reputation increases your maximum number of followers, though that still depends mostly on your social stats. Your reputation is in many categories (there are 4 types of entertainment fame currently), and it doesn't influence out-of-category people nearly as much, and you still need skills in the right category (art vs. battle) to get skilled people.
Quote from: Ghills
Dwarves are typically highly racist and isolationist, making multi-species forts a rarity in fantasy. How will that be reflected in-game, do we get different racism values between civs or options to have a dwarf-only fort?
You've mentioned that drunkenness is related to bodysize, but that suggests that humans will be less likely to be drunk than dwarves, which sounds backwards. Especially since alcohol functions like water in dwarven biology (otherwise they would not suffer slowness when drinking only water). Will there be a method by which dwarves are less susceptible to drunkeness?
There is a tolerance for differences personality variable, but it doesn't lead to widespread uniform prejudices. We're not sure how or to what extent we want to proceed with that sort of thing at this point.
I don't recall what we did with the liver size for this time. It's there and should be reflected in how fast dwarves get drunk/process syndromes. Somebody mentioned the disease resistance variable, though whether that affects alcohol tolerance depends on the syndrome def and I'm not sure I want it to end up going that way. There will be something in place by release.
Quote
Quote from: RobsoieRegarding the philosopher/culture changes potentials, i was wondering about marriage by example.
Currently marriage are a male and a female start with socializing, developing the relation into the marriage in the end.
That's one of the way it happens in real world, but in real world there are very different cultures, in which marriage does not happen this way, by example marriage can be decided by parents of the male and the female, marriage can be polygamy with a man being married to several female (polygyny) and more rarely a female being married to several males (polyandry) and probably more ways.
Will a civ , influenced by a specific philosophy/philospher, be able to change its marriage culture to fit a different way from what happens in current version ?
Additionally, about religions, will there be an equivalent to philosophers in the religious domain, spreading their religion ? i can imagine with some cults trying to gain power, or to isolate from other, or to influence rulers, etc... even leading a civilisation to wage war against another, even within the same entity ?Quote from: vjmdhzgrWell, since 0.40 it could be a male and a male or a female and a female.Quote from: RobsoieAh yes, i completely forgot about that one.
That then add more to my question about the different types of marriages in regards to specific civ culture changes :
Will there be cultures spread by a philosopher into a civ that would set them to ignore or allow or disallow gay marriages ?
There's nothing like that with marriage in the next version. We might see different systems when we get to the law/custom framework stuff, but it's unclear which directions we'll be going there -- the main concerns will be practical property stuff as it relates to hill dwarves and the economy and so forth, as well as the religious enhancements. The religious analogues to philosophers and cults and all that are up for those embark scenarios and as we continue along. Schisms and other trouble will happen at some point (it's in our internal religion notes, anyway).
Quote from: Xazo-Tak
Will I be able to sing songs of my defeated foes mid-battle?
The ones you've defeated in previous battles, yeah, and probably even the ones defeated in the current battle so far, I think, because they get incident reports/rumors as right they go down.
Quote from: vjmdhzgr
Will you add some method for adventurers or fortress citizens to learn how to read soon? Will fortress mode scribes even need to know how to read? And finally will there be any reason to read books in adventurer mode?
Yeah, that has been strange, since people don't know specific languages and the "reader" skill only ever came up as an incidental cruelty in adventure mode. I don't have literacy rates yet or anything like that, so we'll probably continue on in limbo, being generous to the unskilled dwarf. Adventure mode has had reasons to read books as long as we've had necromancers, and that's still the most stark example of a book you might want to read. You can pick up new art forms and scholarly knowledge, but you can't use the scholarly knowledge for much yet, unless you want to spread your values by glutting your own books in a library or something.
Quote from: Cruxador
Is reputation as an artist going to get broadened to include non-performing arts which are already in the game, such as sculpting/statuary?
It seems like the sort of thing that might happen once the adv skill stuff goes in, since you'll be producing pieces at that time. I'm not sure when individual fort dwarf skill reps will matter in fort mode, since the skill itself is sitting there and governs most of the things going on, but there could be a vector there for the change as well.
Quote
Quote from: Novel ScoopsDo you have any plans for lower order "magical" items in the Artifact arc?Quote from: FallacyofUristDo you plan to add randomly generated books of magic(not just necromancy)?
It would be interesting if gods didn't have only one type of controlled magic to bestow.
The Artifact arc will indeed be doing a few additional things -- we've mentioned the myth generator, and that by itself already sets up a lot of possibilities, some very quick and easy. Mainly what we're doing now is trying to really narrow it down to a few focused pushes so we don't end up with a 2 year magic release. We'll have more details on what makes the cut as that approaches.
Quote from: Greiger
Will all drinks be hardcoded to induce drunkenness or would it be possible for modders to create what would essentially amount to non-alcoholic drinks by omitting a syndrome tag?
The syndrome is in the plant alcohol template, not the "drink" item. The old dwarf alcohol counter still uses the drink item, I think, and there could be other old behaviors sitting around, but the syndrome itself is all out in the raw files.
Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
Will there be any changes/additions to Legends mode, and if so, which are they?
Nothing aside from all the new events and written content and that sort of thing. A few things like the festival details are currently legends mode only. But I haven't done anything like the 3rd party utilities.
Quote from: falcc
Will you be able to drink/sleep/dance at a tavern from your retired fort in adventure mode?
I haven't tried it yet, but I think drinking might haphazardly depend on the stockpile situation, and they might not understand where the mugs are. The occupations are the same in both modes and so are the zones, so dancing/performances and renting should work.
Quote from: dakenho
Many games site your work as inspiration/influence to their game, and many games seek to be fortress likes, do you ever worry about other games outpacing dwarf fortress?
We've already been outpaced in many ways. Every significant project seems to go its own direction though, and people play multiple games, so we aren't that worried about a sudden entire player-base depletion. Hopefully we can continue to survive for a time. In any case, it would be a sad thing if DF weren't outpaced utterly and completely in all ways over time, for the world of games as a whole.
Quote from: DarkwingUK
My question: is it likely that for this release or one of the upcoming releases, you will put in an ability for us to open the world map while in fortress mode? Simply having the ability to see which cities are where would make that news much more accessible and engaging.
Also, with the ability for people to tell stories and sing songs, I imagine that with the upcoming release, we will have visitors coming to our taverns and sharing even more news from the outside world.
As we have with the outpost liaison, would there be a similar notification or interaction system with tavern visitors?
Yeah, the news system is crappy -- world maps and more would help, although I'm not sure when I'll next get a chance to work on it. We were hoping to have visitors share news with the tavern keeper, though it hasn't happened yet.
Quote from: Puzzlemaker
Hey Toady, Do you have plans to reset or clean up the eternal suggestion system? What about doing another feature run based on the top suggestions?
We don't have a plan -- we haven't attacked all ten or so that won before and got on the dev page. I think some of them were vote-cleared when we moved them to dev, so I'm not even sure what would be fair in terms of comparing those to the ones that are now on the top. It was so long ago, anyway. If it were to be reset, something would probably have to be done with the comparable breadth/type of topics and so on to give the thing some lasting vitality, but that's been talked out in various ways and I don't know how to proceed.
Quote from: Alfrodo
Would books, like performances. Be able to be written in adventure mode provided you have a blank codice or scroll?
Yeah, it'll be in before the release, though you might not be able to bind a codex after you write on a quire.
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
Why are goblin sieges so small? The largest one I've seen had 30 goblins. In the previous version the sieges were much larger, and armies in world gen seem to consist of hundreds or even thousands of soldiers.
Why don't the besieging goblins have cavalry? Haven't seen a single goblin riding a creature in this version.
The pathing problem that's been handled for next time will have them appear more often. I'm not sure about the beakdogs -- it checks the site pops for them when it prepares the invading army to leave their site, but perhaps they fail to keep them in world gen properly. I'll check. The sizes of the armies sent to player fortresses are still governed by some ramp-up code for gamey reasons (so they never reach w.g. sizes -- which is also a cpu thing), and they are now also capped by who's actually available, so a few things could keep the sizes down. Then again, I'm not really sure what the final caps should be at this point. Maybe they are a bit low.
Quote from: Alfrodo
You mentioned being able to make codices and scrolls in fortress mode, but what will dwarves writing be like? Will they just do it themselves when they feel like it or will you be able to shout at your writer/wordsmith/scribe I need a book and I need it now!
I.e. Will it be similar to the current state of strange moods or like engravings?
It's more routine than a mood but it's not controlled entirely by you. You get to decide to have a library and who works there, then they do their thing. Once scholarship matters more, you might be able to direct it a bit.
Quote from: falcc
Just to clarify: if a philosophical outlook becomes popular can it change civilization or individual values now? Or do they just become familiar with a value position in order to write a reply? Can a goblin civilization be won over to the value of art or ...craftsgoblinship?
Yeah, they actually change. If you can get goblins to build a library, you could change them with books, but they start out being fairly against that sort of thing. Changing individuals after world gen doesn't spread to the entire civ and if I remember they won't build a library after w.g. is over. So we still need a few pieces to get all the way to your scenario, I think, with movements that act on groups through speaking etc.
Quote from: LordBaal
Would be possible to have some impromptu poem or sing a song made on the fly on a conversation, you know, in the sake of the arts of seduction?
We don't have adv mode relationship formation yet.
Quote from: Alfrodo
Will reading philosophy books in adventure mode modify your own adventurer's values / ethics?
Right now it would. As with the weird crying effects, it's something I'm not sure about yet in terms of overall direction.
Quote from: Spish
A tag [for gorlak/etc. visitors], you say? Is it possible for intelligent megabeasts/semimegas to join civilizations, or perhaps even player fortresses in this manner?
Once a critter has semimega+ status, I don't think they do the same wandering routines. They'll need to be handled in a different way to account for their importance, or the lines will end up becoming blurred, but they are still separate for this time.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
With the worlds of Dwarf Fortress being somewhat dangerous, is it possible to hire fighting types with no real interest in the arts to join your troupe as bodyguards?
You can't yet hire bodyguards using money (that's in the merchant role notes), but you can ask warrior-types to adventure with you without having them join you troupe, and they'll happily follow you around. You'd need to have some relevant talent or fame to get them to come along.
Quote from: Dirst
Is it possible for the player to establish a troupe and leave it, with the troupe remaining functional?
Yeah, though that is a little odd in the case of a new troupe.
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
How are the outcomes of world gen battles resolved? I've sometimes seen severely outnumbered armies win the battle despite losing three quarters of their warriors and their leader, with the enemy leader still alive and their casualties moderate. I also think that the leader's skills matter.
It's sort of tragic the way it pairs things piece by piece -- skill matters a lot and can lead to unrealistic scenarios when non-hf groups get chewed up like dynasty warriors, 10 at a time. We wanted to fit a more final system into the overall army rewrite, with lines and terrain and that sort of thing, but we haven't done that rewrite yet, so the cruddy system has remained in place for years.
Post by: LordBaal on August 01, 2015, 04:58:07 pm
Post by: crazyabe on August 02, 2015, 01:28:51 am
Post by: Knight Otu on August 02, 2015, 05:32:53 am
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on August 02, 2015, 08:32:01 am
Quote from: NJW2000Bit of an obvious question, but will performances affect your fame, and will that mean you can get more people to follow you? Also, is fame one absolute value for each civ, or will a bard be able to get more singers than spearmen as companions?
Yeah, your performance reputation increases your maximum number of followers, though that still depends mostly on your social stats. Your reputation is in many categories (there are 4 types of entertainment fame currently), and it doesn't influence out-of-category people nearly as much, and you still need skills in the right category (art vs. battle) to get skilled people.
May I inquire which categories of reputation there are exactly?
Quote from: Xazo-TakWill I be able to sing songs of my defeated foes mid-battle?
The ones you've defeated in previous battles, yeah, and probably even the ones defeated in the current battle so far, I think, because they get incident reports/rumors as right they go down.
Will singing songs of defeated foes mid-battle be interpreted as a taunt and/or cause opponents to re-evaluate how much of a threat you are (in either direction), or is there no such understanding currently?
Post by: Vattic on August 02, 2015, 11:02:40 am
How much, if any, control do you plan to give the player over caps like this? I only ask because we have editable pop caps and the like so players can adjust depending on how good a PC they have and how few FPS they can handle.Quote from: Daniel the FinlanderWhy are goblin sieges so small? The largest one I've seen had 30 goblins. In the previous version the sieges were much larger, and armies in world gen seem to consist of hundreds or even thousands of soldiers.
The pathing problem that's been handled for next time will have them appear more often. -snip- The sizes of the armies sent to player fortresses are still governed by some ramp-up code for gamey reasons (so they never reach w.g. sizes -- which is also a cpu thing), and they are now also capped by who's actually available, so a few things could keep the sizes down. Then again, I'm not really sure what the final caps should be at this point. Maybe they are a bit low.
Post by: Robsoie on August 02, 2015, 11:14:22 am
Post by: vjmdhzgr on August 02, 2015, 12:11:04 pm
Related to the multi-species fortress, without having to use the "kill" order from a squad, will you be able to prevent/block entrance to migrants that you suspect are possible spies/there to undermine your fort (migrant coming from a civ you're directly at war with by example) , or are demon worshippers bent on spreading evil (goblins by example) ?I'm pretty sure he's said he's not getting into spies or any other potential harmful visitors to a fortress for quite a long time now. Also I'm pretty sure that visitors have to ask to join your fortress permanently which allows you to choose whether or not you want them to join at which point you could deny them. Or you could lock doors, or drop them into pits of magma like you already can.
Post by: Dirst on August 02, 2015, 02:11:46 pm
Leaving would be odd for a brand new troupe... "Okay guys, now that we're all together and ready to perform, I'm moving on with my life. Bye."
Post by: Robsoie on August 02, 2015, 04:12:34 pm
Related to the multi-species fortress, without having to use the "kill" order from a squad, will you be able to prevent/block entrance to migrants that you suspect are possible spies/there to undermine your fort (migrant coming from a civ you're directly at war with by example) , or are demon worshippers bent on spreading evil (goblins by example) ?I'm pretty sure he's said he's not getting into spies or any other potential harmful visitors to a fortress for quite a long time now.
It is sad but not unexpected , hopefully he will consider this in his future development arcs, so much fun and FUN! potential in having some of your fortress citizens actually working against you.
Post by: MrWiggles on August 02, 2015, 08:29:06 pm
Post by: Amperzand on August 02, 2015, 08:36:24 pm
I liked having a list of things people asked me to do and where they were, without having to search submenus for relevant site-names.
Post by: Dirst on August 02, 2015, 09:41:07 pm
It is sad but not unexpected , hopefully he will consider this in his future development arcs, so much fun and FUN! potential in having some of your fortress citizens actually working against you.
"Well, this necromancer siege shows where Urist's loyalties were the whole time. First day he arrived I said, 'He's a rotten stinking corpse!' But nobody ever listens to me."
Post by: Inarius on August 03, 2015, 02:41:54 am
I liked having a list of things people asked me to do and where they were, without having to search submenus for relevant site-names."
--> Greened it for you.
Post by: Pootis on August 03, 2015, 11:53:49 am
Post by: Dirst on August 03, 2015, 12:48:56 pm
Post by: lethosor on August 03, 2015, 01:35:12 pm
Post by: Amperzand on August 03, 2015, 04:08:23 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on August 03, 2015, 07:41:21 pm
Will artists or otherwise copy other's performances without the original performer explicitly teaching them? Can performances or stories be circulated independent from the original performer?What do you mean? Like watching the performance then just doing it, without any teaching?
Cause there been stories in the Dev Log of troupes carrying on traditions and performance after the originator of the troupe, and their songs/dance left the group. So you can be taught different styles and dances/songs other then its originators.
Post by: lethosor on August 03, 2015, 08:14:40 pm
Thanks, I realize the green's needed, but for some reason the formatting tags don't appear on this computer.It's just this:
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]...[/color]Edit: also copyable in the first post, for future reference.Post by: Dirst on August 03, 2015, 08:46:25 pm
Post by: AceSV on August 04, 2015, 03:35:22 pm
Post by: Bumber on August 05, 2015, 02:02:14 am
Do you have any new kinds of divine retribution in mind? Inflicting a random FB syndrome seems like low-hanging fruit, although maybe it doesn't work as well for world gen desecration events.
Post by: Max™ on August 05, 2015, 02:57:01 am
Post by: Inarius on August 05, 2015, 04:47:02 am
About vampires, will the creature (after they are transformed) stay in the fortress, even if being caught (and are seen as ennemy) ? In legends mode, usually, they flee from their location just after being discovered to save their life, which is quite coherent with their goal (immortal life).
Post by: Robsoie on August 05, 2015, 05:19:17 am
About curses
In current version, there are 2 curses, one in worldgen that can make a npc into a vampire when he offend a deity and one at gameplay time when you attract the sight of a mummy in a tomb .
None of those curses can be currently dispelled/removed in any ways out of death, so assuming there may be some more curses type in the future, will there be additionally some way to dispell/remove them ?
Post by: Rose on August 05, 2015, 05:37:45 am
Post by: Robsoie on August 05, 2015, 06:20:56 am
Post by: LordBaal on August 05, 2015, 07:14:51 am
Will there be guards or anything to protect temples from desecration and give a challenge to adventurer looking for vampirification ? (especially as vampire curse is more like a big bonus instead of an actual curse in adventure mode)For the time being. I think (or hope at least) eventually there will be more challenges after becoming a vampire.
I wonder this too, it seems now overly easy to end up with a cursed fortress in no time. Also will the kind of courses be specific to the gods? I mean, the god of death would make vampires and zombies, the one of hunting werebeast, the one of health/sickness perhaps FB syndromes or something else (if is planned to have different that kind of things as courses), and so on?
Post by: Dirst on August 05, 2015, 08:21:12 am
Will there be guards or anything to protect temples from desecration and give a challenge to adventurer looking for vampirification ? (especially as vampire curse is more like a big bonus instead of an actual curse in adventure mode)I think damage from sunlight would be an easy way to make bloodsucking less popular. And by damage, I don't mean sparkling >:(
Overall, it's nice to see all of the disparate game concepts getting knit together very nicely.
Post by: Broken on August 05, 2015, 09:00:15 am
I expect some sort of divine plague retribution is a goal which is another step closer with the temple desecration in play.
Once temple desecration is implemented, you can already do this with a little modding. Just make a sindrome that can
be inflicted through divine ire with some way of infecting other dwarfs and you are ready to go. So you can make an illness that rots eyes and makes you puke, and make the vomit transmit it.
Post by: Button on August 05, 2015, 09:00:36 am
I haven't seen goblins use mounts or war animals in 0.40, are they going to come back in the next version?
This was addressed in Toady's last FotF update.
I'm not sure about the beakdogs -- it checks the site pops for them when it prepares the invading army to leave their site, but perhaps they fail to keep them in world gen properly. I'll check.
Post by: AceSV on August 05, 2015, 09:16:13 am
I haven't seen goblins use mounts or war animals in 0.40, are they going to come back in the next version?
This was addressed in Toady's last FotF update.I'm not sure about the beakdogs -- it checks the site pops for them when it prepares the invading army to leave their site, but perhaps they fail to keep them in world gen properly. I'll check.
Ah okay, thanks. I guess I accidentally skimmed over that part. I'm still concerned about mod armies crashing, since that's a big part of the fun for me.
Post by: Pootis on August 05, 2015, 12:09:39 pm
Will artists or otherwise copy other's performances without the original performer explicitly teaching them? Can performances or stories be circulated independent from the original performer?What do you mean? Like watching the performance then just doing it, without any teaching?
Cause there been stories in the Dev Log of troupes carrying on traditions and performance after the originator of the troupe, and their songs/dance left the group. So you can be taught different styles and dances/songs other then its originators.
Like an artist seeing a performance and copying it (with or without the originator's permission), or just anyone hearing a cool story and repeating it later.
Post by: monk12 on August 05, 2015, 01:04:44 pm
It's sad that secret vampires aren't secret anymore, it was fun in past version to not notice one got into a migrant wave.
I interpreted the dev log to mean that migrant vampires still have their secret identities and cover stories and whatnot, it's just that dwarves being cursed in your fortress (presumably in public view) don't generate one to hide their newfound vampireness and immediately go on a monster spree. To be fair, killing the witnesses is the first step in forging a secret identity, so perhaps it's the kind of thing that will come up when more general crimes and murders can be plotted by dwarves.
Post by: falcc on August 05, 2015, 03:01:11 pm
Will artists or otherwise copy other's performances without the original performer explicitly teaching them? Can performances or stories be circulated independent from the original performer?What do you mean? Like watching the performance then just doing it, without any teaching?
Cause there been stories in the Dev Log of troupes carrying on traditions and performance after the originator of the troupe, and their songs/dance left the group. So you can be taught different styles and dances/songs other then its originators.
Like an artist seeing a performance and copying it (with or without the originator's permission), or just anyone hearing a cool story and repeating it later.
Since performances are attached to pre-generated forms, anyone that sees a performance will be able to use that form and that topic for their own performance and it'll essentially be the exact same thing as the performance they saw, give or take some skill.
Post by: Zavvnao on August 05, 2015, 07:33:49 pm
Would temple desecration in destroyed towns still cause curses? And how will animal men/women populations interact with destroyed sites in future or current interactions?
I hope my questions about abandoned towns are not too repetitive. And thank you for the game.
Post by: WingSoap on August 06, 2015, 03:59:31 am
Post by: Knight Otu on August 06, 2015, 10:21:50 am
Will there be ethnic cleansings in multi-race civs?There aren't any intra-civ genocides in the current multi-race civs, and changing that isn't within the scope of the release. The changes were mostly for the multi-race fortresses that now become viable, and I'm sure you can adjust existing traps to kill whoever you don't want.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on August 06, 2015, 12:19:40 pm
It's sad that secret vampires aren't secret anymore, it was fun in past version to not notice one got into a migrant wave.I'm pretty sure that Toady just meant that vampires that get cursed at your fortress are revealed immediately, world generation ones will still be secret. Also I think werebeasts are curses along with vampires, making it 3 curses. The main question you asked is still good though.
About curses
In current version, there are 2 curses, one in worldgen that can make a npc into a vampire when he offend a deity and one at gameplay time when you attract the sight of a mummy in a tomb .
None of those curses can be currently dispelled/removed in any ways out of death, so assuming there may be some more curses type in the future, will there be additionally some way to dispell/remove them ?
Post by: Capsicum on August 06, 2015, 05:03:36 pm
Post by: Dirst on August 06, 2015, 09:17:27 pm
What are your plans (if any) to present legends mode information to players in a more organic (in-game) way?I thought it was kinda funny when I saw an ant man soldier become obsessed with its own mortality and try to extend its life by any means... then die of old age in less than a year.
This is the kind of stuff that should be relayed thru bards and added to the known Legends available in fort or adventure mode, though the omniscience of Legends mode is rightfully walled off.
Post by: Pootis on August 07, 2015, 11:17:09 am
Post by: reality.auditor on August 09, 2015, 06:44:18 pm
It's sad that secret vampires aren't secret anymore, it was fun in past version to not notice one got into a migrant wave.You read it wrongly. Vampires coming with migrants are still secret. Only those desecrating in fortress mode aren't.
Post by: NJW2000 on August 09, 2015, 06:47:33 pm
Being cursed by vengeful gods every time a temple gets messed with (always) sounds a little gamey to me. Will we ever have options for worldgen to tone down direct divine influence like that?
Can't you already, with no. of vampire curse types? Or does that just do the number of variations?
Post by: Rockphed on August 09, 2015, 08:47:02 pm
Being cursed by vengeful gods every time a temple gets messed with (always) sounds a little gamey to me. Will we ever have options for worldgen to tone down direct divine influence like that?
Can't you already, with no. of vampire curse types? Or does that just do the number of variations?
That just turns down the variations, though I think that vampire curses all end up being samey as currently implemented. I know that if you want your rawified secrets to show up you need to set the number of generated secrets to a low number. I assume the same is true for curses.
Post by: golemgunk on August 09, 2015, 08:54:55 pm
Will temple defilers be cursed 100% of the time?
If so, an invading squad of goblins with a few trolls in tow could make for a hectic battle.
Post by: Spish on August 09, 2015, 11:42:22 pm
Being cursed by vengeful gods every time a temple gets messed with (always) sounds a little gamey to me. Will we ever have options for worldgen to tone down direct divine influence like that?If current Legends are any indication, then only a select few deities will be cursehappy; the rest don't really seem to care.
Post by: Miuramir on August 12, 2015, 11:13:17 am
Being cursed by vengeful gods every time a temple gets messed with (always) sounds a little gamey to me. Will we ever have options for worldgen to tone down direct divine influence like that?
I'm not sure "gamey" is a good description; it is usually used to imply that something is done because the needs of engine or game mechanics override the way things "should" be based on the setting. That's not really the case here.
Some religious, mythological and fantasy settings have deities that pay very personal attention to their followers (and followers of their rivals), and some do not. Some settings have deities that are extreme sticklers for compliance to a long list of fiddly rules, and others have more laid-back cosmic forces who simply expect support for their sphere of interest. In some settings the god or gods are vast, terrifying cosmic forces beyond mortal comprehension, and in others the gods are the genius loci or numinous spirits of individual springs and crossroads. And in some settings, you can have *all* of these sorts of things, depending on the individual god in question.
DF eventually needs to handle all of these options, and hopefully generate others we've not even thought of yet. This means that ideas and code for "interventionist" deities need to be developed, debugged, and play-tested; it's almost always easier and less problematic to turn down that sort of thing later than to turn it up and find that things break.
It is likely that in future versions there will be some world generation settings to adjust various procedurally-generated parameters of the cosmos based on personal preference: prevalence of magic, involvement level of the gods, and so on. Presumably, if you prefer a setting with distant and less involved gods, you'd not use presets designed to generate, say, something along the lines of Greek myth; where merely boasting that you are a Legendary +5 Weaver gets you turned into a new sort of hideous monster by a jealous goddess (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachne).
Post by: Knight Otu on August 12, 2015, 02:56:13 pm
Those who don't seem to care mostly don't have temples to be desecrated. Temples are mostly only built in large human cities (I suppose the next version may have dwarf temples), and only two of them, I believe. And I think there's also still a tendency that only a few gods keep getting selected for temple building.Being cursed by vengeful gods every time a temple gets messed with (always) sounds a little gamey to me. Will we ever have options for worldgen to tone down direct divine influence like that?If current Legends are any indication, then only a select few deities will be cursehappy; the rest don't really seem to care.
Post by: Robsoie on August 12, 2015, 03:01:42 pm
And will they be built in random odd place or will there be some checks to have them in more appropriate locations (difficult to imagine death-based deities temples being tolerated in a city ruled by a lord that is worshipping life-based deities , or good-based deities temples being built in evil regions)
Post by: Robsoie on August 12, 2015, 03:03:02 pm
Post by: Dirst on August 12, 2015, 03:18:35 pm
Will the fake deities be able to have their own temples to help cover they're in fact demons impersonating a deity ?I thought that demons impersonated a "real" deity. If that's the case, then the temple would even "work" by cursing people who desecrate it.
The interesting bit would be what happens if the demon sets foot in said temple.
Post by: Dirst on August 12, 2015, 03:27:59 pm
Quote from: Novel ScoopsDo you have any plans for lower order "magical" items in the Artifact arc?Quote from: FallacyofUristDo you plan to add randomly generated books of magic(not just necromancy)?
It would be interesting if gods didn't have only one type of controlled magic to bestow.
The Artifact arc will indeed be doing a few additional things -- we've mentioned the myth generator, and that by itself already sets up a lot of possibilities, some very quick and easy. Mainly what we're doing now is trying to really narrow it down to a few focused pushes so we don't end up with a 2 year magic release. We'll have more details on what makes the cut as that approaches.
Toady, are you getting close enough to hint at what might make the cut in myth generation for the upcoming release?
Also, are there any raw changes that are firm enough that you feel comfortable discussing them yet? (And hopefully at least part of the myth generator is in the raws...)
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams
Post by: TheCheeseMaker on August 12, 2015, 11:04:55 pm
Related, will human merchants sell armor and clothing dwarf sized, or will they still bring sizes completely useless for a dwarf?
Post by: Neonivek on August 13, 2015, 01:10:58 am
I know that the old "How the HECK did that dwarf kill the Bronze Colossus" thing is odd... but I am always kind of incredulous that basically in this world where Godzilla roams the earth that instead of armies, teams, or groups of people trying to take it down... People just decide to do it solo all the time.
And
How much longer are we going to be stuck with oddly fragile megabeasts? or to rephrase: At what point are you going to work on fixing up relative strengths in world gen?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 13, 2015, 03:16:51 am
Quote
The upcoming release is part 1 of the taverns arc, which will be followed by part 2 (Presumably? Toady might be bored of fun and games by now). Then the artifact arc is due to begin. So it's going to be quite a while (years?) before we see the myth generator.
Toady, are you getting close enough to hint at what might make the cut in myth generation for the upcoming release?
Also, are there any raw changes that are firm enough that you feel comfortable discussing them yet? (And hopefully at least part of the myth generator is in the raws...)
Post by: WordsandChaos on August 13, 2015, 07:59:15 am
Will History ever have events that are less solo-fights and wars and more like... A group of people teaming up on a monster? or is the solo meant to reflect that he is the "leader"?
The current system doesn't simulate actual battles. It's more like 5000 Elves and 5000 dwarves line up and then, literally, take turns combating single opponenets until the battle ends.
But hopefully at some point we can have the battles be more.. err, battle-esq.
Post by: Alfrodo on August 13, 2015, 10:33:42 am
Will History ever have events that are less solo-fights and wars and more like... A group of people teaming up on a monster? or is the solo meant to reflect that he is the "leader"?
The current system doesn't simulate actual battles. It's more like 5000 Elves and 5000 dwarves line up and then, literally, take turns combating single opponenets until the battle ends.
But hopefully at some point we can have the battles be more.. err, battle-esq.
That's why you have experienced, heavily armed and armored demigod necromancers being taken out by puppies in world gen.
Post by: Max™ on August 14, 2015, 05:37:25 am
It does happen, it's just not described well in legends because it usually ends up being recorded as whoever landed the killing blow or initated the conflict dueling soandso.
Post by: Mr S on August 14, 2015, 08:15:27 am
Post by: Vattic on August 14, 2015, 09:56:28 am
Post by: lethosor on August 14, 2015, 12:16:14 pm
Post by: Max™ on August 14, 2015, 09:47:09 pm
Then I walked into a town with bodies impaled on stakes and tied to trees with ropes and such.
Sounds morbid to call it a magical experience, but it really was.
Post by: TheFlame52 on August 15, 2015, 09:16:02 am
Yeah, and I thought that a lot of the stuff in world gen descriptions didn't happen in game.What, really? I want to see!
Then I walked into a town with bodies impaled on stakes and tied to trees with ropes and such.
Sounds morbid to call it a magical experience, but it really was.
Post by: Max™ on August 16, 2015, 02:24:06 am
The top few images of this album: http://imgur.com/a/K7TEyYeah, and I thought that a lot of the stuff in world gen descriptions didn't happen in game.What, really? I want to see!
Then I walked into a town with bodies impaled on stakes and tied to trees with ropes and such.
Sounds morbid to call it a magical experience, but it really was.
I was honestly amazed.
Also super excited because I saw Toady noting that reactions will be able to preserve artifact status. Being able to add decorations and whatnot to existing artifacts suddenly becomes an option, among other things.
Post by: Sunday on August 16, 2015, 07:47:25 am
The top few images of this album: http://imgur.com/a/K7TEyYeah, and I thought that a lot of the stuff in world gen descriptions didn't happen in game.What, really? I want to see!
Then I walked into a town with bodies impaled on stakes and tied to trees with ropes and such.
Sounds morbid to call it a magical experience, but it really was.
I was honestly amazed.
Also super excited because I saw Toady noting that reactions will be able to preserve artifact status. Being able to add decorations and whatnot to existing artifacts suddenly becomes an option, among other things.
If you get killed by a bandit in its camp, and then you go to that camp with a later adventurer, sometimes you can see the body of your previous adventurer (and his/her companions, if any) impaled on a spike.
Pretty cool.
Post by: Zavvnao on August 16, 2015, 10:51:02 am
Post by: LordBaal on August 16, 2015, 03:43:32 pm
Post by: Alfrodo on August 16, 2015, 03:45:17 pm
If you ever hae the game to the point where dwarves can be impaled in fortress mode, will the dwarves both be depressed yet have good thoughts from being impaled on their favorite wood?
I think they're impaled posthumously, So They can't exactly remark on how wonderful the poplar wood spear being shoved through them is.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on August 16, 2015, 04:09:59 pm
If you ever hae the game to the point where dwarves can be impaled in fortress mode, will the dwarves both be depressed yet have good thoughts from being impaled on their favorite wood?Urist felt annoyance after recieving a major wound recently. Urist felt pleasure after admiring a fine mahogany spear recently.
Post by: Neonivek on August 17, 2015, 12:57:06 am
Will History ever have events that are less solo-fights and wars and more like... A group of people teaming up on a monster? or is the solo meant to reflect that he is the "leader"?
The current system doesn't simulate actual battles. It's more like 5000 Elves and 5000 dwarves line up and then, literally, take turns combating single opponenets until the battle ends.
But hopefully at some point we can have the battles be more.. err, battle-esq.
That's why you have experienced, heavily armed and armored demigod necromancers being taken out by puppies in world gen.
It is also why I asked my question as to "When it will change"
Post by: Buttery_Mess on August 17, 2015, 04:00:34 am
Post by: Dirst on August 17, 2015, 08:35:45 am
I'm guessing that kobolds won't be able to take part in poetry and written traditions.ee cummings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._E._Cummings) had the [UTTERANCES] tag ;)
Post by: Kitsune on August 17, 2015, 09:44:25 pm
Edit: To clarify I'm only talking about NPCs cursed with the werebeast/vampire curse.
Post by: crazyabe on August 18, 2015, 01:21:41 am
Post by: Urist_McDagger on August 18, 2015, 07:15:47 am
You have odd objectives, even for DF.Hey, man no judging. I just want to be a legendary bard.
Post by: Robsoie on August 18, 2015, 07:54:18 am
will people be able to get married outside of their respective species in the new version?
Quote from: Dr. Peter Venkman
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
Post by: NJW2000 on August 18, 2015, 10:21:40 am
Will you be able to lie about achievements, like persuading a demon you that it was you(ergo, not you) who wiped out the entire Murderfurnace civilization single-handedly?
You have odd objectives, even for DF.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on August 19, 2015, 11:46:31 am
Post by: SMASH! on August 20, 2015, 07:19:10 am
Post by: Mr S on August 20, 2015, 04:54:29 pm
Post by: LordBaal on August 20, 2015, 09:06:47 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 20, 2015, 10:38:47 pm
Post by: Jacob/Lee on August 20, 2015, 10:42:02 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on August 21, 2015, 01:07:35 am
Will it be possible for expert soldiers to take apprentices instead of following normal barracks training routines (eventually)? Fighting styles as a later goal are listed on the dev page, and I was wondering if veteran soldiers could eventually take some less seasoned troops and teach them a new method they came up with, or just give them general training in a more direct way than the usual.He answers this question right in blog post. Generalized Apprentice Master relationship will take more work, and they'll work on it later.
Post by: Knight Otu on August 21, 2015, 03:48:05 pm
Can we mod random beast/interactions generator? I would like to change undead stats and give bigger cooldown for webbers, it is possible to mod GCS like this, but not random beasts. Is it possible to add this generators in raws?Eventually that should happen, but not in the foreseeable future. Toady has mentioned a few times that dragons are a prime target for "raw-based" random generation.
will people be able to get married outside of their respective species in the new version?Very unlikely. The work Toady did was mostly to make multiracial fortresses work from what he said, not to expand the existing multiracial entities. If it does happen, it'd be probably an unintended behavior.
Will there be cursed NPCs that seek a cure, seek to hurt as few people as possible and even some that seek to spread the curse more than they want to kill?The first would require that there are cures. I'd expect that it's an eventual goal that some werecurses/vampires allow struggling against the monster side or embracing it for ambitions more, as those are pretty common tropes in stories.
Edit: To clarify I'm only talking about NPCs cursed with the werebeast/vampire curse.
Post by: Sefzaps on August 21, 2015, 05:14:47 pm
Post by: falcc on August 22, 2015, 09:11:47 am
Will scholars be attracted to your fortress based on what literature you have? As in, if you have a lot of books related to medicine will you get visitors with medical skills looking to study there? Perhaps we'd finally have a reliable way to train doctors.
Knowledge has no impact on skills, so even if your scholars know all about medicine they won't be any better at bone-setting or anything else used in fort mode.
Post by: Alfrodo on August 22, 2015, 10:02:27 am
Will scholars be attracted to your fortress based on what literature you have? As in, if you have a lot of books related to medicine will you get visitors with medical skills looking to study there? Perhaps we'd finally have a reliable way to train doctors.
Knowledge has no impact on skills, so even if your scholars know all about medicine they won't be any better at bone-setting or anything else used in fort mode.
Makes sense, Just because I researched masonry for a while on Google doesn't mean I become good at it.
Post by: Robsoie on August 22, 2015, 10:42:11 am
Will there be real consequence to a NPC/player actions making himself "enemy" to a civ ? And with civs getting different ethics than an entity, will the enemity propagate toward other allied civs or will it stay local only ?
Will we see in the future the justice system of the fortress mode taking effect in adventure mode too with some kind of guard/hammerer/assassins squads dispatched by location leaders to bringing people to justice for minor crimes or trying to put a lethal end to their murder spree ?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on August 22, 2015, 12:01:48 pm
I think they mean training doctors by getting doctors to migrate to your fortress with your medical library, and then as Toady said in the dev blog " During research discussions, if somebody is better at skills associated to the topic and has broader knowledge, the dwarves (or permanent residents) can decide to strike up an arrangement. This will allow scholars to teach their students directly, and they can teach all of their present apprentices at once to speed things up"Will scholars be attracted to your fortress based on what literature you have? As in, if you have a lot of books related to medicine will you get visitors with medical skills looking to study there? Perhaps we'd finally have a reliable way to train doctors.
Knowledge has no impact on skills, so even if your scholars know all about medicine they won't be any better at bone-setting or anything else used in fort mode.
Post by: Max™ on August 22, 2015, 06:09:37 pm
Seeing at how the worst murdering rampages/crimes can be done in complete impunity in adventure mode, will there be something done about it in next version that is more appropriate than those "spits" or calling one a murderer without any more consequence ?I eagerly await being able to become the enemy of a civilization and have adventurers go on quests to track me down, military squads be dispatched when they fail, and diplomats eventually arriving to ask me politely to stop killing everyone.
Will there be real consequence to a NPC/player actions making himself "enemy" to a civ ? And with civs getting different ethics than an entity, will the enemity propagate toward other allied civs or will it stay local only ?
Will we see in the future the justice system of the fortress mode taking effect in adventure mode too with some kind of guard/hammerer/assassins squads dispatched by location leaders to bringing people to justice for minor crimes or trying to put a lethal end to their murder spree ?
Post by: Spish on August 22, 2015, 11:02:05 pm
I eagerly await being able to become the enemy of a civilization and have adventurers go on quests to track me down, military squads be dispatched when they fail, and diplomats eventually arriving to ask me politely to stop killing everyone.On that note, when can we expect to see smaller entities (bandits and criminal organizations, animal men tribes, rebels) and roaming encounters (*) interacting with our fortresses directly? Is that type of thing covered with the whole visitation dealie?
Post by: Chevaleresse on August 23, 2015, 03:25:32 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 24, 2015, 07:54:31 am
Post by: NJW2000 on August 24, 2015, 07:59:29 am
When will conversation be on the cards?
Huh? Do you mean in fortress mode?
Post by: Dirst on August 24, 2015, 09:12:45 am
To be fair, I've never noticed a dwarf say "It was inevitable" in fortress mode.When will conversation be on the cards?
Huh? Do you mean in fortress mode?
Post by: NJW2000 on August 24, 2015, 09:19:00 am
Pausing = the thought/quotes on personality page, and slow motion = combat reports. Where they do randomly talk. To their enemies.
The latter is pretty limited, to be fair. The only times they don't do generic fear statements is when they choose to say something totally inappropriate. It's actually pretty rude to tell someone that you have no hope after getting sunburn if you've just hammered their spinal column through their guts.
Post by: Dirst on August 24, 2015, 09:27:29 am
I think conversations are related to time schemes in fortress mode: you see everything speeded up, so it would only be relevant to have your information slowed down enough to have individual sentences if you were pausing or examining something in slow motion.I get why there's no routine conversation in fortress mode (it's not like the entity has [TRANSLATION:OLD_ENTISH]), but it'd be nice to see topics of conversation pop up on the Thoughts and Preferences screen (Urist felt pride discussing her battle with a cave dragon.). I think think the bardic tales in the upcoming release will go a long way in that regard, but the reality is there are some people who really do just like to hear themselves talk.
Pausing = the thought/quotes on personality page, and slow motion = combat reports. Where they do randomly talk. To their enemies.
The latter is pretty limited, to be fair. The only times they don't do generic fear statements is when they choose to say something totally inappropriate. It's actually pretty rude to tell someone that you have no hope after getting sunburn if you've just hammered their spinal column through their guts.
Post by: NJW2000 on August 24, 2015, 09:49:30 am
I heard some guy (on this thread?) talk about how he managed to merge adventure interface onto his fort so he could hear his dwarves talking, I think.
Post by: Nopenope on August 24, 2015, 04:45:47 pm
Will scholars be attracted to your fortress based on what literature you have? As in, if you have a lot of books related to medicine will you get visitors with medical skills looking to study there? Perhaps we'd finally have a reliable way to train doctors.
Knowledge has no impact on skills, so even if your scholars know all about medicine they won't be any better at bone-setting or anything else used in fort mode.
This may sound like a stupid question but what's the point of knowledge then? Gameplay-wise, I mean.
Post by: Putnam on August 24, 2015, 05:31:02 pm
Will scholars be attracted to your fortress based on what literature you have? As in, if you have a lot of books related to medicine will you get visitors with medical skills looking to study there? Perhaps we'd finally have a reliable way to train doctors.
Knowledge has no impact on skills, so even if your scholars know all about medicine they won't be any better at bone-setting or anything else used in fort mode.
This may sound like a stupid question but what's the point of knowledge then? Gameplay-wise, I mean.
It will matter later. Actually making them matter in the current release would probably make it take a few more months.
Post by: Robsoie on August 24, 2015, 05:34:03 pm
This may sound like a stupid question but what's the point of knowledge then? Gameplay-wise, I mean.If i have no idea if Toady has knowledge being something important or just some flavor text gimmick, but i would imagine an application in DF context of knowledge and lack of it would be that a character without having had the knowledge of a skill teached to him would then acquire/train such skill very slowly.
So in the medecine example , a bone setting dwarf would get his skill improve by using it (much) more slowly than the bone setting dwarf that would have had a medecine scholar teaching him all there is to know about bone setting.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 25, 2015, 02:17:48 am
Although I suspect studying under a medical scholar will probably just produce more medical scholars (i.e book writers) for now. Hopefully we'll know more at the end of the month.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 25, 2015, 02:30:46 am
Don't forget that the upcoming release is only part 1 of the whole taverns n' knowledge arc. The rest (including practical application, apprenticeships, games and recipes and no doubt all sorts of other stuff) is all on the way but Toady doesn't want another multiple year wait for the next release.Will scholars be attracted to your fortress based on what literature you have? As in, if you have a lot of books related to medicine will you get visitors with medical skills looking to study there? Perhaps we'd finally have a reliable way to train doctors.
Knowledge has no impact on skills, so even if your scholars know all about medicine they won't be any better at bone-setting or anything else used in fort mode.
This may sound like a stupid question but what's the point of knowledge then? Gameplay-wise, I mean.
Post by: Dirst on August 25, 2015, 05:15:18 am
Don't forget that the upcoming release is only part 1 of the whole taverns n' knowledge arc. The rest (including practical application, apprenticeships, games and recipes and no doubt all sorts of other stuff) is all on the way but Toady doesn't want another multiple year wait for the next release.I'm not sure those features would make me feel better about DF healthcare.
"Alrighty patients, I'm back from the tavern. Who to see next? Eenie Meenie Minie Moe..."
Post by: Devin on August 26, 2015, 02:46:13 am
Post by: NJW2000 on August 26, 2015, 03:44:38 am
Post by: Dirst on August 26, 2015, 09:56:01 am
Quote from: Toady One
It feels like we're entering a period of posts along these lines where there will sometimes be interesting logs like the last log, and often logs that are just lists of now-unbroken known features, he he he. The collection of problems is growing smaller, anyway!Dirst cancels doing anything useful at work: pressing F5 continuously
Okay, maybe not, but this is definitely welcome news.
Post by: Malrone on August 26, 2015, 02:11:32 pm
So, to the Toady One, I ask a Big question and a Small question.
Big:
Right now, dwarves are traumatized by the idea of dead goblins, even after centuries of violence between these peoples. Will the emotions system draw more on family and politics in the future to correct for this, or perhaps will ethics draw more granular distinctions between species and not just all sentience? The current method of managing this reaction, of systematically traumatizing dwarves until their personality is nothing but the emotional equivalent of scar tissue, is somewhat distressing.
Small:
As libraries, books, scholars, and the various forms of "hard" knowledge are added to the game, will the player be able to influence what ideas are generated or spread? Could propaganda be manufactured and cultural education eventually be implemented?
Post by: Inarius on August 26, 2015, 04:00:33 pm
you should green (edit --> lime green) your text if you want Toady to see them !
Post by: Malrone on August 26, 2015, 09:05:16 pm
The difference between player ethics and dwarven ethics (as defined by the game) is something I've always found to be rather striking. We've built mermaid farms, corpse disposal chutes to recycle bodies into workable bone, elaborate eugenics and genocide machines, concocted schemes to raise our children into ideal soldiers straight from the womb, and generally been capable of a detached amoral calculative mindset. All the while, the dwarves themselves approach something of a Kantian ideal, and apply their civilization's ethics to all creatures capable of higher thought.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on August 27, 2015, 03:15:57 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on August 27, 2015, 04:31:17 pm
Post by: Malrone on August 27, 2015, 05:15:10 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on August 27, 2015, 05:24:07 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on August 27, 2015, 06:44:18 pm
It's rare after a point, but it does and has happened. The Chinese industrial revolution circa 1000 was completely reversed, we don't know what Corinthian Bronze actually is, Damascus Steel is a lost art only recently (and only barely) recovered, and all attempts at figuring out how to make Greek Fire have failed. Having a technology rich history generation that can't include such tragedies as the destruction of the libraries of Alexandria and Baghdad, for example, would be a notable absence I think.Thats not true at al. Damascus Steel was an iron ore found in northern India. It stopped, not because anything was lost but because the deposits ran out. There is no need to place techniques on it.
Corinthian Bronze was probably an alloy of copper and gold or silver or high quality bronze. Though we don't know what it was, because there no known example of it. There is no need to place techniques on it.
Greek Fire, maybe the only actually lost thing here. Though napalm is is probably more effective version of it. Greek Fire is really interesting, as its one of the earliest if not the first example of compartmentalization in order to secure state secrets.
And Alexandria didnt exclusively have originals nor did Baghdad. So while the several destruction of the Alexandria library did lose some knowledge, probably not as much as romantically believed.
And roman underwater concrete is awesome. But it wasn't ever lost. Concrete was used well after the roman era. It also wasnt superior to modern concrete. So while there are lots of roman concrete left, roman over engineered. And most of Roman concrete isn't around. The issue here, is how that knowledge was preserved. It was mostly passed on in master apprentice relationships, and whose recipe change over time, with new knowledge, new needs and probably most important, what you have on hand. The quote unquote rediscovery of underwater concrete to redo the parisian sewers, was done to avoid unions. If the state could figure out how to do it, they didnt need to rely on union workers to do the work.
Post by: Malrone on August 27, 2015, 08:43:41 pm
I did some research and found this (http://fee.org/freeman/chinas-historic-error/). I'm more in agreement with you now (if not completely), but some exceptional situations still stand out. That they're just that -exceptional- might make it wise to discount them at this stage of game development, yes.
Post by: MrWiggles on August 27, 2015, 09:19:21 pm
Though I think its a bit hyperbolic to say that the Chinese empire could have had an industrial revolution in the 15th century. One of the key things that allowed for that to happen in European was the invention of artificial chemical fertilizer which greatly reduced the number of manpower needed to form. And China wouldnt have had that in the 15th century.
Post by: Malrone on August 28, 2015, 03:31:45 am
Post by: Rockphed on August 29, 2015, 07:23:43 pm
Not could. Did. (http://fee.org/freeman/chinas-forgotten-industrial-revolution/)
Between those two posts, I think I can come up with all sorts of things my political opponents are doing wrong. Wrong, ya hear! Now get off of my lawn, ye dang kids!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 30, 2015, 05:03:43 pm
I think conversations are related to time schemes in fortress mode: you see everything speeded up, so it would only be relevant to have your information slowed down enough to have individual sentences if you were pausing or examining something in slow motion.I get why there's no routine conversation in fortress mode (it's not like the entity has [TRANSLATION:OLD_ENTISH]), but it'd be nice to see topics of conversation pop up on the Thoughts and Preferences screen (Urist felt pride discussing her battle with a cave dragon.). I think think the bardic tales in the upcoming release will go a long way in that regard, but the reality is there are some people who really do just like to hear themselves talk.
Pausing = the thought/quotes on personality page, and slow motion = combat reports. Where they do randomly talk. To their enemies.
The latter is pretty limited, to be fair. The only times they don't do generic fear statements is when they choose to say something totally inappropriate. It's actually pretty rude to tell someone that you have no hope after getting sunburn if you've just hammered their spinal column through their guts.
Interestingly enough, I seem to recall that in the process of creating a tool which told you more about your process, someone found out that the creatures in fortress mode do have conversations (or what passes for them in DF), it's just we don't see them.
Frost demon "Look at the sky! Do you think we're in hell?"
Post by: Max™ on August 30, 2015, 10:36:22 pm
Post by: Putnam on August 30, 2015, 11:12:50 pm
I think conversations are related to time schemes in fortress mode: you see everything speeded up, so it would only be relevant to have your information slowed down enough to have individual sentences if you were pausing or examining something in slow motion.I get why there's no routine conversation in fortress mode (it's not like the entity has [TRANSLATION:OLD_ENTISH]), but it'd be nice to see topics of conversation pop up on the Thoughts and Preferences screen (Urist felt pride discussing her battle with a cave dragon.). I think think the bardic tales in the upcoming release will go a long way in that regard, but the reality is there are some people who really do just like to hear themselves talk.
Pausing = the thought/quotes on personality page, and slow motion = combat reports. Where they do randomly talk. To their enemies.
The latter is pretty limited, to be fair. The only times they don't do generic fear statements is when they choose to say something totally inappropriate. It's actually pretty rude to tell someone that you have no hope after getting sunburn if you've just hammered their spinal column through their guts.
Interestingly enough, I seem to recall that in the process of creating a tool which told you more about your process, someone found out that the creatures in fortress mode do have conversations (or what passes for them in DF), it's just we don't see them.
Frost demon "Look at the sky! Do you think we're in hell?"
you can look at them by setting up announcements.txt to show the conversations in combat reports IIRC
Post by: DarkwingUK on August 31, 2015, 04:08:37 pm
I hope you don't mind two questions!
The beauty of the game has always been about the persistence of history after death (of fortress, of characters), and my questions relate to that.
I noticed that there is a menu in the units lists dedicated to dead dwarves. Is there a reason why we cannot see any information about them after they are dead (in the live units list we can see their thoughts, preferences, and relationships. In the latest version especially, because slabs seem much less likely to indicate who killed them (usually just says bled to death), the dwarves very much disappear when they are dead.
Now that there are songs, dances, and books with topics, do you plan some way of designating a person to be memorialised through art, similarly to how it was possible by engraving slabs?
Post by: lethosor on August 31, 2015, 07:30:19 pm
I noticed that there is a menu in the units lists dedicated to dead dwarves. Is there a reason why we cannot see any information about them after they are dead (in the live units list we can see their thoughts, preferences, and relationships.You can get to this information through dead dwarves' relatives (or with DFHack, for that matter), so it's not a technical reason. I'd say it's simply an oversight, since the unit information screen used to be far less interesting than it is now. I'm pretty sure this has been suggested in the suggestions forum before, anyway, so Toady will probably look at it.
Post by: MrWiggles on August 31, 2015, 08:37:58 pm
Dear Toady,So with question like these, the answer will be: "That sounds good, but no time table."
I hope you don't mind two questions!
Now that there are songs, dances, and books with topics, do you plan some way of designating a person to be memorialised through art, similarly to how it was possible by engraving slabs?
Generally, if it sounds reasonable to be included with a feature present in the game but isnt already, then if not outright planned for, it may sneak itself in. Its not lost on most of of us, that great deeds or histories make their way into song dance, and poem.
Post by: Dirst on September 01, 2015, 06:45:59 am
"As you wish, Duke."
Urist McPoet withdraws from society and works secretly...
"Right. I did not mean a song about the time he left three of his squadmates to die because he was busy getting a fresh pair of socks."
Post by: Rockphed on September 01, 2015, 07:27:41 pm
"Urist McPoet, compose a song about our Champion who single-handedly slew a sieging army with the jawbone of an ass."
"As you wish, Duke."
Urist McPoet withdraws from society and works secretly...
"Right. I did not mean a song about the time he left three of his squadmates to die because he was busy getting a fresh pair of socks."
But the truth wants to be free!
Post by: Toady One on September 01, 2015, 08:34:09 pm
Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
May I inquire which categories of reputation there are exactly?
Will singing songs of defeated foes mid-battle be interpreted as a taunt and/or cause opponents to re-evaluate how much of a threat you are (in either direction), or is there no such understanding currently?
We have hero, buddy, grudge, animal training partner, violent brawler (instigating non-lethal attacks on non-hostiles), psychopath (instigating lethal attacks on non-hostiles), trade partner, friendly, killer, murderer, adventuring companion, member of respected group, member of hated group, enemy fighter, friendly fighter, bully, brigand, loyal soldier, monster, storyteller, poet, bard and dancer -- these can be tracked variously at the individual-individual or individual-entity level, first through active rumors and then more abstractly, though not all of them are saved over the long haul and only occur when rumors are active.
Quote from: Vattic
How much, if any, control do you plan to give the player over caps like [army invader numbers]? I only ask because we have editable pop caps and the like so players can adjust depending on how good a PC they have and how few FPS they can handle.
There are lots of numbers that could afford to come out at this point. Not really sure when it'd happen.
Quote from: Amperzand
Is there any intention of bringing some equivalent to the pre-DF2014 quest menu back?
I liked having a list of things people asked me to do and where they were, without having to search submenus for relevant site-names.
There are some problems with storing goals the way they were done before, in that we don't want the original giver to be centralized (except for certain things like squad tasks or kidnap relatives) and we need to handle imperfect information and so on, but we do need to add a way to promote and remember and see the rumors/tasks you are working on in their own space. There might need to be some sort of prompt in the conversation to let you flag something, since you can get a lot of information dumped on you at once to the point where you wouldn't be able to flag what you want easily in the log screen after even one conversation (especially with all the starting home town data in your mind), but in-conversation meta-prompts have the issue of being anti-immersive. Perhaps there's an in-between solution that isn't too obscure. Universal remember button? Classified recommendations from log screen? There's too much data for the ubiquitous date or faction/storyline ordered journal/quest-list to really work by itself now.
Quote from: Pootis
Will artists or otherwise copy other's performances without the original performer explicitly teaching them? Can performances or stories be circulated independent from the original performer?
Yeah, they can pick up the knowledge by being spectators, but this doesn't mean they'll be talented. There are practical experience measures for each form as well as general skills -- if the copying artist doesn't have practical experience, they can still use their skills to make an effort during their first performance, and they'll build up experience over time. Abstract knowledge of forms and specific works can also be learned from books, which'll allow the reader to attempt them. It's a little generous in that you can pick up a form without a lot of specific examples -- in real life, you wouldn't get all the nuances from a few examples, even if you were skilled, but it's kind of a cpu issue to be too fussy with the checks.
Quote from: Bumber
Do you have any new kinds of divine retribution in mind? Inflicting a random FB syndrome seems like low-hanging fruit, although maybe it doesn't work as well for world gen desecration events.
Nothing in mind for this release. It seems like future temple desecrations will all be in-game now, and not just part of world gen, so perhaps it's best if those are inflicted upon the unsuspecting player as they arise.
Quote from: Inarius
About vampires, will the creature (after they are transformed) stay in the fortress, even if being caught (and are seen as ennemy) ? In legends mode, usually, they flee from their location just after being discovered to save their life, which is quite coherent with their goal (immortal life).
Ideally we'd have all the world gen complications transferred over, including the suspicion that slowly builds as they fail to age, but it isn't in there yet.
Quote from: Robsoie
In current version, there are 2 curses, one in worldgen that can make a npc into a vampire when he offend a deity and one at gameplay time when you attract the sight of a mummy in a tomb .
None of those curses can be currently dispelled/removed in any ways out of death, so assuming there may be some more curses type in the future, will there be additionally some way to dispell/remove them ?
Yeah, I imagine it'll happen as an expansion to the interaction system over time. I'm not sure precisely when -- we may or may not get to it in the next round that comes with the myth/artifact stuff, but there's a lot on the table for that one.
Quote from: Japa
Will enough temple desecrations result in your fortress showing symptoms of an evil biome? Dead rising, raining blood, etc?
The evil biomes from pre-history aren't related to desecrations, so it didn't come up. One of the targets for the myth generator is to explain why those places are the way they are, and that'll involve relating it to some mechanic or another. I'm not sure what that'll mean for temple desecration.
Quote from: Robsoie
Will there be guards or anything to protect temples from desecration and give a challenge to adventurer looking for vampirification ? (especially as vampire curse is more like a big bonus instead of an actual curse in adventure mode)
There's nothing like that now.
Quote from: LordBaal
will the kind of courses be specific to the gods? I mean, the god of death would make vampires and zombies, the one of hunting werebeast, the one of health/sickness perhaps FB syndromes or something else (if is planned to have different that kind of things as courses), and so on?
It would be better to keep everything in character -- we've had such a small curse menu for the gods to choose from up until now that we didn't bother. As we get more options, I think divisions will happen naturally.
Quote from: Zavvnao
Would temple desecration in destroyed towns still cause curses? And how will animal men/women populations interact with destroyed sites in future or current interactions?
Yeah, the gods don't care about having active worshippers at a site, so toppling statues in ruined temples would not be recommended. I'm not sure what the second question means -- like will they move in and have little animal person ruin-warming parties at the temples? Or something about the current outcast groups? I don't remember if they still get cursed after the main civ gets chased out or how that works.
Quote from: Capsicum
What are your plans (if any) to present legends mode information to players in a more organic (in-game) way?
The only legends mode presentations in fort/adv mode are organic (engravings, rumors, etc.). What's missing is a more systematic way of doing it, and the issues there are with game-spoiling information about e.g. invasion forces heading for your fort that you shouldn't know about, etc. I don't recall if there are also technical issues with loading up a legends-type mode while the fort is active... I don't think so.
Quote from: golemgunk
Will regular creatures with the building destroyer tag be cursed from toppling statues?
Will temple defilers be cursed 100% of the time?
Yeah, I think a strategic temple might be bad for an invasion force. This mechanic will certainly need to be updated as we go along, at least in terms of consecrating the temple so it can't be placed instantly through the interface as if that somehow communicates with the gods directly.
Quote from: Robsoie
Speaking of temples, are every deities going to have temples in a worldgen ?
And will they be built in random odd place or will there be some checks to have them in more appropriate locations (difficult to imagine death-based deities temples being tolerated in a city ruled by a lord that is worshipping life-based deities , or good-based deities temples being built in evil regions)
I haven't changed which deities have temples in world gen from the current release. Ideally there'd be hidden temples in cities and isolated temples in the wilds later on.
Quote
Quote from: DirstToady, are you getting close enough to hint at what might make the cut in myth generation for the upcoming release?
Also, are there any raw changes that are firm enough that you feel comfortable discussing them yet? (And hopefully at least part of the myth generator is in the raws...)Quote from: Shonai_DwellerThe upcoming release is part 1 of the taverns arc, which will be followed by part 2 (Presumably? Toady might be bored of fun and games by now). Then the artifact arc is due to begin. So it's going to be quite a while (years?) before we see the myth generator.
Nope! I won't know what's in or out until we're into the bug-fixing cycle when we update the dev pages (and even after that it'll be subject to change of course). I expect large swaths of the myth generator to make it into world gen params, but I don't have any idea what kind of raw/objects changes to expect.
The gambling/games/price-setting/rent/etc. part of the tavern release was made problematic by the lack of economy, and we might wait on that until the value of things is more natural and coins are floating around again (or whatever ends up happening). The myth generator goes in with the artifact release (there might be one release there or we might find a good split point).
Quote from: TheCheeseMaker
In the next version humans can live with the dwarves. Will we be able to make armor that would fit them? Or would they be forced to use the armor bought off the human merchants?
Related, will human merchants sell armor and clothing dwarf sized, or will they still bring sizes completely useless for a dwarf?
Handling the non-dwarf clothing production problem is one of the remaining issues. It'll be handled before release (I think with some new workshop options). I'm not sure I'll get to merchants though. I think there are some archaic issues with that code which would need to be handled.
Quote from: Neonivek
Will History ever have events that are less solo-fights and wars and more like... A group of people teaming up on a monster? or is the solo meant to reflect that he is the "leader"?
I know that the old "How the HECK did that dwarf kill the Bronze Colossus" thing is odd... but I am always kind of incredulous that basically in this world where Godzilla roams the earth that instead of armies, teams, or groups of people trying to take it down... People just decide to do it solo all the time.
And
How much longer are we going to be stuck with oddly fragile megabeasts? or to rephrase: At what point are you going to work on fixing up relative strengths in world gen?
World gen doesn't have any respect for parties/companions/whatever in world gen that are used in adventure mode or in dwarf mode squads -- it would be good to have these things.
I'm not sure when we'll next be looking at world gen combat in terms of survivability etc.
Quote from: Zavvnao
If you ever hae the game to the point where dwarves can be impaled in fortress mode, will the dwarves both be depressed yet have good thoughts from being impaled on their favorite wood?
If they were alive, it would probably work that way now, though I don't remember if "upright weapon" buildings are admire-able.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
I'm guessing that kobolds won't be able to take part in poetry and written traditions. But, will they be able to play music and therefore participate in other cultures that way? Could a kobold develop a new musical style or dance style, to which a poetic form might become attached? As I understand it, there's some cross pollination between poetic forms, music and dance.
Yeah, they currently have some music, but the difficulty would be getting it to pass around, since kobolds don't integrate into other societies well. If somebody else observed a kobold musical form in secret (which effectively limits it to you and your friends)... hmmm, I don't think they'd set words to it, since we only have poetic forms or specific poems associated to musical forms at the time of the forms creation, and new poetic forms don't consider music. You'd need to have a derived music form that has the kobold form as its ancestor, but we haven't done direct evolution of forms of the same kind yet. Specific musical compositions can have attached poetic forms, but that might require the parent musical form to have an associated poetic form as well. In any case, there are some avenues but I don't think it gets all the way there yet.
Quote from: Urist_McDagger
Will you be able to lie about achievements, like persuading a demon you that it was you(ergo, not you) who wiped out the entire Murderfurnace civilization single-handedly?
We haven't gotten into false rumors yet... it is kind of a can of worms. The current rumor system would support you saying whatever, and people would believe it and pass it around and reputations would change, but there aren't any detections/reality checks/etc. for them to use, so it would be too powerful. If non-players can do it there would be lots of bug reports.
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
Will there be an easy way to view the values of a civilization aside from reading the profiles of fortress residents?
We don't currently have anything like that for next time, though you can pick up some information from books and so on.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
In the example master-apprentice situation you described, would the apprentice Dwarves actual medical skills increase as they study, or just the abstract 'knowledge of medicine'. I mean, how much of a real-game impact does this have at the moment?
Knowledges are all linked to skills, so the doctors and engineers can actually pick up some skills that are used in regular jobs, though that wasn't the focus.
Quote from: Sefzaps
Will scholars be attracted to your fortress based on what literature you have? As in, if you have a lot of books related to medicine will you get visitors with medical skills looking to study there? Perhaps we'd finally have a reliable way to train doctors.
We aren't to the point yet where specific books are considered. Hopefully sometime.
Quote from: Robsoie
Seeing at how the worst murdering rampages/crimes can be done in complete impunity in adventure mode, will there be something done about it in next version that is more appropriate than those "spits" or calling one a murderer without any more consequence ?
Will there be real consequence to a NPC/player actions making himself "enemy" to a civ ? And with civs getting different ethics than an entity, will the enemity propagate toward other allied civs or will it stay local only ?
Will we see in the future the justice system of the fortress mode taking effect in adventure mode too with some kind of guard/hammerer/assassins squads dispatched by location leaders to bringing people to justice for minor crimes or trying to put a lethal end to their murder spree ?
We're not doing anything with this for the next version. The justice framework will begin to go in with the release after the artifact release, though it'll happen in stages.
Quote from: Spish
when can we expect to see smaller entities (bandits and criminal organizations, animal men tribes, rebels) and roaming encounters (*) interacting with our fortresses directly? Is that type of thing covered with the whole visitation dealie?
I'm not sure when. When is always a hard question. We've wanted to do things with megabeasts and smaller groups for some time now. It might be more natural once some of your forts have to deal with their own hill/deep dwarves (which is on the short-term list a few large releases down the line).
Quote from: KingMurdoc
Is the current difficulty of the living dead (particularly zombies raised in worldgen) intended? For that matter, are goblins/etc supposed to be as weak as they are currently?
No, I'd like to change them, though I only have a partial impression of where they are right now. Goblins should presumably be more variously equipped, have more skill levels, and have some interesting special guests, at the very least, in addition to the tactical stuff we've talked about before.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
When will better conversation be on the cards?
Things have changed slowly over time, and I don't think there'll be a specific push. They'll just continue to change. Dwarf mode is difficult -- there's a bit there, but the main things people talk about have been omitted for speed reasons.
Quote from: Devin
For those of us who miss DF Talk and would like to hear from you about all the recent development in new episodes, can we volunteer to help somehow? We could collect a list of good questions for you to discuss in an episode and do the audio editing from the raw take to make it sound nice, for instance. That would probably reduce the work involved for you to pretty much just the time you were talking on mic.
We have the Q&A emails sitting there, and the audio editing doesn't take all that long. The main issue is that we don't have a general topic in mind, since we've done the broad strokes in past episodes, and it's lackluster repeating the dev logs or future of the fortress replies (that is, talking about specific current developments). By the time we could do an episode about, say, the myth generator, in any level of planned-out detail, it'd already be being programmed and come up on the dev log or in here. So that's the main issue. We just haven't settled into a pattern of topic selection that works reliably over the long haul without being repetitive.
Quote from: Malrone
So, to the Toady One, I ask a Big question and a Small question.
Big:
Right now, dwarves are traumatized by the idea of dead goblins, even after centuries of violence between these peoples. Will the emotions system draw more on family and politics in the future to correct for this, or perhaps will ethics draw more granular distinctions between species and not just all sentience? The current method of managing this reaction, of systematically traumatizing dwarves until their personality is nothing but the emotional equivalent of scar tissue, is somewhat distressing.
Small:
As libraries, books, scholars, and the various forms of "hard" knowledge are added to the game, will the player be able to influence what ideas are generated or spread? Could propaganda be manufactured and cultural education eventually be implemented?
Having the dwarven culture normalize genocide is also kinda distressing... but there should probably be some respect given to the situation between long-warring civilizations of any kind. I'm not really sure how much that helps with mental trauma. Regardless of species, it is a little odd when finding a pile of long-dead bodies causes many individual bad emotional experiences.
You could always arrange for books and scholars you don't like to be dumped, as with nobles. I don't have research direction settings, but that seems like something that might be part of the official will of the fortress. Perhaps with the library/temple embark scenarios we'll see some entity positions that directly relate to that kind of thing.
Quote from: FearfulJesuit
You've hinted before that the current dev cycle may lay the groundwork for a future reworking of technology during gameplay- technologies that you will or won't have access to depending on research, with the ability to advance your fortress's knowledge by investing in research. If so, do you also envision- whether in fort mode or simply in worldgen- situations where a civilization would lose access to a technology they once had?
That seems like something that might happen -- since we don't yet have a link between the knowledge (as contained in books and scholars) and the practical aspects, it's hard to say how it'd work. Technologies that are learned by lots of people and have lots of physical examples laying around seem harder to lose than a random non-obvious observation about the geometry of the atmosphere or whatever, but it would almost have to be taken case by case, in terms of how it permeates the larger society and whether the form of its permeation contains the elements of its re-invention/discovery (that would also be related to how easily it would spread/be stolen I suppose).
Quote from: DarkwingUK
I noticed that there is a menu in the units lists dedicated to dead dwarves. Is there a reason why we cannot see any information about them after they are dead (in the live units list we can see their thoughts, preferences, and relationships. In the latest version especially, because slabs seem much less likely to indicate who killed them (usually just says bled to death), the dwarves very much disappear when they are dead.
Now that there are songs, dances, and books with topics, do you plan some way of designating a person to be memorialised through art, similarly to how it was possible by engraving slabs?
I think I removed all that information because the tense of it makes it seem like the dwarf is still alive, and scrubbing the information also made the dwarf seem... deader. It'd be fine to leave it available, but it needs to be cleaned up. I haven't done any of the art commissioning stuff. When we get to that, there are more possibilities now, but it's hard to say what'll be first.
Post by: Robsoie on September 01, 2015, 08:53:18 pm
Post by: Max™ on September 01, 2015, 09:22:56 pm
Quote from: Toady One
I don't recall if there are also technical issues with loading up a legends-type mode while the fort is active... I don't think so.There is an open-legends.lua script available and it works magnificently. It is more handy in adventurer mode because it gives so much access to information that can be hard to access right now.
Post by: lethosor on September 01, 2015, 09:31:32 pm
Quote from: Toady One
I don't recall if there are also technical issues with loading up a legends-type mode while the fort is active... I don't think so.The only issue I'm aware of (which inspired the script Max mentioned) is that the legends viewscreen cleans up game objects when LEAVESCREEN is pressed, which crashes if the world isn't unloaded afterwards (the main purpose of the script is to prevent this step).
Post by: Max™ on September 01, 2015, 10:39:26 pm
Post by: Dirst on September 02, 2015, 05:02:29 am
Post by: uebersoldat on September 02, 2015, 10:27:56 am
Even if just one aspect can be offloaded to another core, like weather or pathing that would help so much! I would finally be able to actually PLAY a huge, old fort!
Post by: therahedwig on September 02, 2015, 10:31:30 am
Quote
The sooner the better, unless I'm mistaken and it's just as easy to program those with more content as it is now?
I think in a way that sort of sums it up, yes. The actual answer is that it would be a full architecture rewrite and I guess that's sorta easier at the end of the road than in the middle of it, for so far it would be easy at all.
Post by: RoaryStar on September 02, 2015, 11:47:12 am
Can someone direct me to an official stance on the state of the FPS monster? I have followed these FotF posts for a while now and it seems like everyone is just ignoring the issue. I can't see how the game can progress much further without multi-threading. The sooner the better, unless I'm mistaken and it's just as easy to program those with more content as it is now?
Even if just one aspect can be offloaded to another core, like weather or pathing that would help so much! I would finally be able to actually PLAY a huge, old fort!
Multithreading isn't the only thing that can be done; quite a few algorithm optimizations can be done too.
Unfortunately, most of those optimizations require a rewrite at least somewhere.
Hmmm...
Toady, do you build DF in MVS' release mode or debug mode? Release mode takes a longer time to compile, but the end result gets a lot of compiler optimizations; yes, there's a few problems that need to be cleaned up if you do, but the binary runs much faster than debug builds.
Post by: lethosor on September 02, 2015, 12:16:58 pm
Release mode (on Windows, at least) - things compiled in MSVC's release and debug modes aren't binary-compatible with each other, and DFHack is only binary-compatible with DF when compiled in release mode. Also, there obviously aren't debug symbols in any executables, which likely rules out the use of debug mode with GCC on OS X/Linux as well.Can someone direct me to an official stance on the state of the FPS monster? I have followed these FotF posts for a while now and it seems like everyone is just ignoring the issue. I can't see how the game can progress much further without multi-threading. The sooner the better, unless I'm mistaken and it's just as easy to program those with more content as it is now?
Even if just one aspect can be offloaded to another core, like weather or pathing that would help so much! I would finally be able to actually PLAY a huge, old fort!
Multithreading isn't the only thing that can be done; quite a few algorithm optimizations can be done too.
Unfortunately, most of those optimizations require a rewrite at least somewhere.
Hmmm...
Toady, do you build DF in MVS' release mode or debug mode? Release mode takes a longer time to compile, but the end result gets a lot of compiler optimizations; yes, there's a few problems that need to be cleaned up if you do, but the binary runs much faster than debug builds.
(Toady probably uses debug mode during development, though.)
Post by: Sizik on September 02, 2015, 01:03:15 pm
Post by: uebersoldat on September 02, 2015, 01:20:25 pm
I think improving memory/cache performance would be easier to do than multithreading.
Anything would be really nice. The features are great but I can't get over the worsening FPS issue, even on a 4690k. It's just...I don't get it. Why ignore it and continue adding features? My forts are getting less and less old before I just get tired of waiting for dwarf to get from point A to point B and retire it.
EDIT: perhaps I am just not experiencing enough !FUN!
Post by: Knight Otu on September 02, 2015, 02:40:37 pm
Post by: Nikita on September 02, 2015, 08:14:22 pm
Post by: Vattic on September 03, 2015, 02:06:12 am
Oh and some repetition of information in the DF Talk episodes is not unwelcome. It's nice to hear people talk about their projects and it can give a differently nuanced sense of things.
Post by: Aquillion on September 03, 2015, 05:42:43 am
Of course, players exploiting strategically placed temples run the risk of attackers being "cursed" with undeath or vampiric status, which would just mean they're now even harder to deal with.Quote from: golemgunkWill regular creatures with the building destroyer tag be cursed from toppling statues?
Will temple defilers be cursed 100% of the time?
Yeah, I think a strategic temple might be bad for an invasion force. This mechanic will certainly need to be updated as we go along, at least in terms of consecrating the temple so it can't be placed instantly through the interface as if that somehow communicates with the gods directly.
Post by: Lightman on September 03, 2015, 01:44:12 pm
Cheers Toady.
Oh and some repetition of information in the DF Talk episodes is not unwelcome. It's nice to hear people talk about their projects and it can give a differently nuanced sense of things.
I agree. If it came to one-or-the-other, I'd rather have Toady and ThreeToe read their Future of the Fortress, instead of posting on this thread (and call it a 'DF talk'). I find it much more cumbersome digging through this giant thread, if I want to view something I missed in the past. Of course, if they prefer doing a post to a recording, that's understandable.
Post by: monk12 on September 03, 2015, 03:57:20 pm
Cheers Toady.
Oh and some repetition of information in the DF Talk episodes is not unwelcome. It's nice to hear people talk about their projects and it can give a differently nuanced sense of things.
Indeed; very often enough time has passed since the first Talk to make even a reiteration a welcome confirmation that the game (or a given aspect of it) is on the same path. And more often than not, rephrasing old information allows for better inference of intent, which is valuable to consider when dealing with a project this size.
I agree. If it came to one-or-the-other, I'd rather have Toady and ThreeToe read their Future of the Fortress, instead of posting on this thread (and call it a 'DF talk'). I find it much more cumbersome digging through this giant thread, if I want to view something I missed in the past. Of course, if they prefer doing a post to a recording, that's understandable.
Or both. Both is good (if perhaps more work than Toady wants to do.)
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 03, 2015, 05:48:45 pm
I'm wondering though, as anyone looked into the "gauntlet bug" (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6273 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6273)) along the way?
Post by: MrWiggles on September 03, 2015, 07:09:55 pm
Well, there are FPS changes through out development. Its remaining about the same. Even when dramatically large things like the extra z levels were added. ToadyOne is just not making ground on that sluggishness. And to my understanding what really causes slow down, wouldnt really be solved by multithreading anyhow.I think improving memory/cache performance would be easier to do than multithreading.
Anything would be really nice. The features are great but I can't get over the worsening FPS issue, even on a 4690k. It's just...I don't get it. Why ignore it and continue adding features? My forts are getting less and less old before I just get tired of waiting for dwarf to get from point A to point B and retire it.
EDIT: perhaps I am just not experiencing enough !FUN!
Every reveal tile takes more system resources and every item in the game takes more system resources. And these are two things that grow a lot during gameplay.
Post by: Max™ on September 03, 2015, 08:02:40 pm
Ah, excellent to see all this progress, will be glad to see all the Fun that will ensue in .40.25.I'm betting on .48.00 myself.
Hmmm, this might explain why adventurer mode runs so fast, the only times it really slows down is when I've got 5 or 6 thousand (or more) creatures to load within my sight/sound range.
Every reveal tile takes more system resources and every item in the game takes more system resources. And these are two things that grow a lot during gameplay.
Post by: Amperzand on September 03, 2015, 10:05:33 pm
With this wonderful temperature system in place, is there any intention to make it matter for individual units outside of spontaneous combustion or flash-freeze, e.g, hypothermia, heat-stroke?
And;
How likely is more complete structural simulation within the near future, e.g, needing structural columns in especially wide rooms, ETC?
Post by: Inarius on September 04, 2015, 03:46:31 am
Two questions;
With this wonderful temperature system in place, is there any intention to make it matter for individual units outside of spontaneous combustion or flash-freeze, e.g, hypothermia, heat-stroke?
And;
How likely is more complete structural simulation within the near future, e.g, needing structural columns in especially wide rooms, ETC?
All of this are more like suggestions than questions. You should post them in the appropriate topic, or, you will probably hear the same reply than everybody who does the same (not for now, why not, i don't know when)
Post by: Putnam on September 04, 2015, 03:48:50 am
Ah, excellent to see all this progress, will be glad to see all the Fun that will ensue in .40.25.I'm betting on .48.00 myself.
i give it like 98% confidence that it's not above 0.42.01
and like 98% confidence that it's not below 0.41.01
Post by: MrWiggles on September 04, 2015, 05:16:34 am
Two questions;
How likely is more complete structural simulation within the near future, e.g, needing structural columns in especially wide rooms, ETC?
This has been discuss a few times. There isn't a simulation limit that preventing that from happening. Its a UI and display issue. So far, ToadyOne and ThreeToes havent found a way to present things like load and tension on constructions, that they like. And from whats been discussed this is the barrier to removing the simple cave in rules.
Post by: Dirst on September 04, 2015, 09:16:36 am
Sudden cave-ins communicates that there was a problem, but a system "that they like" would give some advance notice in time for the player to do something about it.Two questions;
How likely is more complete structural simulation within the near future, e.g, needing structural columns in especially wide rooms, ETC?
This has been discuss a few times. There isn't a simulation limit that preventing that from happening. Its a UI and display issue. So far, ToadyOne and ThreeToes havent found a way to present things like load and tension on constructions, that they like. And from whats been discussed this is the barrier to removing the simple cave in rules.
Post by: Vattic on September 04, 2015, 12:25:28 pm
With this wonderful temperature system in place, is there any intention to make it matter for individual units outside of spontaneous combustion or flash-freeze, e.g, hypothermia, heat-stroke?
Back in 40d creatures caught outside in extreme cold would slowly die from exposure. We had BURN, HEAT, and COLD damage / attack types; The COLD damage type would cause frostbite when critical. These were removed with the new combat system from what I understand with a desire to use the temperature system instead. I haven't embarked on a glacier in many versions to see if the cold upsets the dwarves.
Post by: Witty on September 04, 2015, 04:08:23 pm
Back in 40d creatures caught outside in extreme cold would slowly die from exposure. We had BURN, HEAT, and COLD damage / attack types; The COLD damage type would cause frostbite when critical. These were removed with the new combat system from what I understand with a desire to use the temperature system instead. I haven't embarked on a glacier in many versions to see if the cold upsets the dwarves.
I've actually done a little bit of science on this.
From what I've seen, it's basically impossible for any creature to suffer any sort of cold damage naturally. In the arena, even when setting the temperature to absolute zero, a dwarf will take quite a while to start suffering cold damage. The current material templates for skin and such leave a lot to be desired on this front, but there's probably screwy numbers across all relevant boards here.
Post by: expwnent on September 04, 2015, 05:34:25 pm
I've actually done a little bit of science on this.
From what I've seen, it's basically impossible for any creature to suffer any sort of cold damage naturally. In the arena, even when setting the temperature to absolute zero, a dwarf will take quite a while to start suffering cold damage. The current material templates for skin and such leave a lot to be desired on this front, but there's probably screwy numbers across all relevant boards here.
Do you really mean absolute zero, or zero dwarf-degrees, which corresponds to far below absolute zero?
Post by: crazyabe on September 04, 2015, 05:38:40 pm
Post by: Witty on September 04, 2015, 10:15:03 pm
Do you really mean absolute zero, or zero dwarf-degrees, which corresponds to far below absolute zero?
Actual absolute zero. Or like 9508 °Urist
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 05, 2015, 03:58:41 am
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on September 05, 2015, 08:50:32 am
Will singing songs of defeated foes mid-battle be interpreted as a taunt and/or cause opponents to re-evaluate how much of a threat you are (in either direction), or is there no such understanding currently?
Post by: Alfrodo on September 05, 2015, 09:23:44 am
I'll take that to mean no, the gauntlet bug will reign eternally. :V
Well. I guess that's that.
*Removes Chitin Gauntlet Reaction*
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 05, 2015, 10:38:42 am
Post by: Vattic on September 05, 2015, 10:54:27 am
Very interesting. Cheers for clearing that up.Back in 40d creatures caught outside in extreme cold would slowly die from exposure. We had BURN, HEAT, and COLD damage / attack types; The COLD damage type would cause frostbite when critical. These were removed with the new combat system from what I understand with a desire to use the temperature system instead. I haven't embarked on a glacier in many versions to see if the cold upsets the dwarves.
I've actually done a little bit of science on this.
From what I've seen, it's basically impossible for any creature to suffer any sort of cold damage naturally. In the arena, even when setting the temperature to absolute zero, a dwarf will take quite a while to start suffering cold damage. The current material templates for skin and such leave a lot to be desired on this front, but there's probably screwy numbers across all relevant boards here.
Post by: Amperzand on September 05, 2015, 01:39:40 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on September 05, 2015, 06:56:08 pm
From whats been described, I am going to say no. The arts performance, seems to be (for now) pretty formally structured. The performers start their act (maybe in a few preconfigured spots like taverns), and then a formal crowd watches them. It seems like those not inside the crowd don't actually acknowledge the performance.
Will singing songs of defeated foes mid-battle be interpreted as a taunt and/or cause opponents to re-evaluate how much of a threat you are (in either direction), or is there no such understanding currently?
So there no ambient or passive acknowledgment. However, I'm willing to bet ToadyOne and ThreeToes are aware of things like war drums and bagpipes, which are meant to be performances that are meant to be heard passively.
Post by: crazyabe on September 06, 2015, 11:18:26 am
[MAT_FIXED_TEMP:0]
Do you really mean absolute zero, or zero dwarf-degrees, which corresponds to far below absolute zero?
Actual absolute zero. Or like 9508 °Urist
Post by: TheFlame52 on September 06, 2015, 11:52:16 am
Post by: Dirst on September 06, 2015, 12:59:50 pm
Was the test putting Urist in a tile at DF Absolute Zero, hitting him with a projectile that was DF Aboslute Zero, or coating him in spatter that was DF Absolute Zero? Simply hitting someone with a hot or cold object may not get the effect you want. The raws definitely specify the temperature at which creatures' tissues take cold damage. For critters made of standard materials it's anything at or below 9900 Urists (-68 Fahrenheit, -55.56 Celsius). This implies that your adventurer can frolic naked on a glacier with nary a care.[MAT_FIXED_TEMP:0]
Do you really mean absolute zero, or zero dwarf-degrees, which corresponds to far below absolute zero?
Actual absolute zero. Or like 9508 °Urist
Post by: crazyabe on September 06, 2015, 01:05:00 pm
All of the aboveWas the test putting Urist in a tile at DF Absolute Zero, hitting him with a projectile that was DF Aboslute Zero, or coating him in spatter that was DF Absolute Zero? Simply hitting someone with a hot or cold object may not get the effect you want. The raws definitely specify the temperature at which creatures' tissues take cold damage. For critters made of standard materials it's anything at or below 9900 Urists (-68 Fahrenheit, -55.56 Celsius). This implies that your adventurer can frolic naked on a glacier with nary a care.[MAT_FIXED_TEMP:0]
Do you really mean absolute zero, or zero dwarf-degrees, which corresponds to far below absolute zero?
Actual absolute zero. Or like 9508 °Urist
Post by: Zavvnao on September 06, 2015, 01:17:24 pm
I'm not sure what the second question means -- like will they move in and have little animal person ruin-warming parties at the temples? Or something about the current outcast groups? I don't remember if they still get cursed after the main civ gets chased out or how that works.
Thinking about it, I mean if they move in or pass by in migratory routes? And I think I am also wondering this about refugees or other moving entities and how ruined towns provoke different responses.
Post by: reality.auditor on September 07, 2015, 09:17:36 am
I can't see how the game can progress much further without multi-threading.Multi-threading issue was done to death on this forum. Generally, it is not possible, since it requires complete rewite of critical parts of code. It would be easier just to simply start from scrath at this point.
Why ignore it and continue adding features?Because new features are what Toady and majority of players wishes, so it gets maximum priority, like it or not.
And question for Toady, since it was not directly addresed:
There was already mentioned something that looks like bug. Dwarves see corpse and reacts like sentient was just killed before their very own eyes. At least this is how it is described in their personal thoughts. It goes without saying that there is big difference between seeing just lying corpse and witnessing actual killing in proccess.
Is it considered bug by you, or it is something intended?
Post by: TheFlame52 on September 07, 2015, 09:23:01 am
Post by: Knight Otu on September 07, 2015, 12:53:31 pm
With the new multi-species forts, how will creatures like trogs and gorlaks fit in? Will they be able to become citizens? I really want to make blind cave ogre shock troops now.Last we heard, gorlaks and animal people are the only creatures that have the necessary creature token for them to become citizens.
Post by: TheFlame52 on September 07, 2015, 12:56:06 pm
Post by: crazyabe on September 07, 2015, 01:55:12 pm
Ah. Elephant seal man shock troops, then.Why not Sperm Whale men shock troops?
Post by: TheFlame52 on September 07, 2015, 01:57:59 pm
Post by: crazyabe on September 07, 2015, 04:01:43 pm
Or did toady Not make working Whales?
Post by: Dirst on September 07, 2015, 04:40:49 pm
What Ar'nt Whales Air breathing mammals?All DF aquatic creatures are "water breathing."
Or did toady Not make working Whales?
Post by: Max™ on September 08, 2015, 02:43:50 am
Post by: Nikita on September 08, 2015, 02:48:15 am
Probably to simplify it because something that big is going to crush itself on land, and that's more a problem to deal with once multi-tile creatures with collapse physics are in place I'd guess?
Were-wagon militia?
Post by: MrWiggles on September 08, 2015, 04:45:41 am
Probably to simplify it because something that big is going to crush itself on land, and that's more a problem to deal with once multi-tile creatures with collapse physics are in place I'd guess?It probably has to do with the fact that respiration isn't (currently) model in DF. So getting mammals to breach to breath would be annoying. I would also be willing to bet, that for them to be consider not under water, they would need to be one tile above the ocean tile.
Post by: Nikita on September 08, 2015, 08:49:31 am
Probably to simplify it because something that big is going to crush itself on land, and that's more a problem to deal with once multi-tile creatures with collapse physics are in place I'd guess?It probably has to do with the fact that respiration isn't (currently) model in DF. So getting mammals to breach to breath would be annoying. I would also be willing to bet, that for them to be consider not under water, they would need to be one tile above the ocean tile.
Dwarves can breathe (with enough swimming skill) so long as there is no water on the z-level above them. Otherwise they start drowning. They also will attempt to exit the water as soon as they are 4/7 tiles deep. However, there is nothing like "get a breath and then return to work". If we apply that to whales, they would just wash ashore and never go back.
Post by: DVNO on September 10, 2015, 03:21:11 pm
Post by: Max™ on September 10, 2015, 06:54:22 pm
Post by: Kitsune on September 12, 2015, 01:22:49 am
Quote
Adventurer Role: Slayer of Night Creatures
Curses and exposure
The slaves of night creatures could have extreme effects from proximity that also affect you if you make a business of hunting them.
I saw this on the development page and I was wondering.
What kind of "extreme effects" are there going to be?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 12, 2015, 03:06:16 am
If they're not doing so already, will fortress artists draw on their own personal histories for inspiration now?
And: Will that personal history effect personalities in the next release? Dislikes gorlaks due to childhood trauma. Fearless since surviving dragon attack at age of 7 or some such stuff.
Post by: Amperzand on September 12, 2015, 03:43:56 am
Post by: iceball3 on September 13, 2015, 02:10:23 am
Which of the upcoming arks are you considering for making various temperature related tweaks/adjustments/reworks, if any? Mainly concerning how temperature affects bodies of creatures in moderate conditions, but I'm curious if you have anything else planned in temperature nonetheless.
In it's current state, temperature is kind of wonky, though understandably it gets the job done for extremes, so it would make sense if nothing is planned at the current juncture.
Post by: SimRobert2001 on September 13, 2015, 06:16:16 am
Post by: Silverybearded on September 13, 2015, 11:26:46 am
Post by: Knight Otu on September 14, 2015, 02:10:38 pm
Will the temples make it possible to remove curses? And I'm not necessarily talking about werecurses, but biome-curses and evil weather as well.Not in the next version. I'd expect that things like that come in when Toady decides to tackle the Slayer of Night Creatures adventurer role, though it's possible that the myth generator work sees a few steps into that territory as well.
Post by: Eric Blank on September 14, 2015, 07:43:44 pm
Similarly, if one performer in a dance/song/what-have-you that requires at least two participants performs well, and the other poorly, does the performance of one affect the performance of the other? (eg, if one does horribly, do their mistakes prevent the other from performing to the best of their abilities as well, such that they interfere with one-another not just on a reputation level but by actually mucking up the skill rolls of the others involved.)
Post by: TheFlame52 on September 14, 2015, 08:16:06 pm
Post by: Dirst on September 14, 2015, 08:16:19 pm
Post by: Max™ on September 14, 2015, 09:13:27 pm
Eric, are you talking about DF or "Dancing with the Stars"? :)Don't know what the second one has to do with it (and by Armok I am so happy I know nothing about it, please leave my ignorance blissful) but I am eager to see how this works out in game. Plus things like, could a less-popular or even jealous artists boo you try to try to turn the crowd?
Post by: iceball3 on September 14, 2015, 09:34:28 pm
I can suddenly imagine a society of sentients that, instead of brawling, solve their problems with Dance-offs.Eric, are you talking about DF or "Dancing with the Stars"? :)Don't know what the second one has to do with it (and by Armok I am so happy I know nothing about it, please leave my ignorance blissful) but I am eager to see how this works out in game. Plus things like, could a less-popular or even jealous artists boo you try to try to turn the crowd?
Post by: Kitsune on September 14, 2015, 11:41:24 pm
Would there king be the best and dancing? Or is there a corrupt king that doesn't know a thing about dancing that later gets defeated by the heroes of dancing, where at first the king laughs at them trying to dance as a way to defeat him but BY THE SEAR POWER OF DANCING it disintegrates the king and the dark clouds looming over the castle haling in the new era of peace and free dancing (the corrupt king outlawed dancing before hand when he was king).I can suddenly imagine a society of sentients that, instead of brawling, solve their problems with Dance-offs.Eric, are you talking about DF or "Dancing with the Stars"? :)Don't know what the second one has to do with it (and by Armok I am so happy I know nothing about it, please leave my ignorance blissful) but I am eager to see how this works out in game. Plus things like, could a less-popular or even jealous artists boo you try to try to turn the crowd?
Post by: MrWiggles on September 15, 2015, 01:39:46 am
Do you plan on adding any features of DFhack to the main game? Things like additional interfaces or adding spatters with reactions?This was up on the Eternal Suggestion voting thing. It wasn't in the selection to be included in the game, if I recall.
Post by: Appelgren on September 15, 2015, 04:54:50 am
Is the emotion system involved, more than in a basic "good performance = happy feelings" way. For instance, could a ribald poem (intended to praise a lover) make a dwarf randy or embarrassed?
Post by: cephalo on September 15, 2015, 08:33:47 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 15, 2015, 12:21:28 pm
Post by: LordBaal on September 15, 2015, 12:24:32 pm
"Behold, mortals. I am Lord of The Dance. Avert thine eyes, for they cannot comprehend the full magnitude of The Moves."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 15, 2015, 12:35:49 pm
And since I am a derp and forgot to greenscreen my question way back when...
Are there any plans concerning long-standing bugs specific to modding in Adventure Mode? Like the Gauntlet Bug ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6273 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6273) ), Production Dimension Lunacy ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3712 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3712) ), or the endless woes of goblin ( see http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8028 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8028) ) and kobold ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7966 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7966) ) adventurers?
Or what about incomplete additions to original DF2014, like the inability to conquer non-human sites ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8001 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8001) )?
Post by: Rockphed on September 15, 2015, 10:34:36 pm
Heresy. owo
And since I am a derp and forgot to greenscreen my question way back when...
Are there any plans concerning long-standing bugs specific to modding in Adventure Mode? Like the Gauntlet Bug ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6273 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6273) ), Production Dimension Lunacy ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3712 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3712) ), or the endless woes of goblin ( see http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8028 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8028) ) and kobold ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7966 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7966) ) adventurers?
Or what about incomplete additions to original DF2014, like the inability to conquer non-human sites ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8001 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8001) )?
In general, unless Toady has specifically mentioned starting working on a specific bug in the Dev Log, it is not on the table for the current release. The same goes for whatever suggestion you want to ask a question. I know you don't want to hear that. I want all the bugs out of Dwarf Fortress yesterday, but until somebody copies Toady a bunch of times, I don't think he is likely to change his methods.
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 15, 2015, 10:53:34 pm
Granted, 90% of the bugs I run into only become relevant because I'm prone to modding the game in ways no one was anticipating, so they're not essential to most sane players. XP
That "can't conquer non-human sites" did get assigned to someone ages ago, implying that there were plans to look into it at some point.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on September 15, 2015, 11:19:17 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 16, 2015, 05:56:20 am
Also, Talking of goblin dancers coming to visit, will it be possible as a non-goblin adventurer to visit the local dark fortress and take part in their poetry reading sessions (assuming you aren't at war)? Or will the inhabitants all try to kill you the moment you arrive?
Post by: Max™ on September 16, 2015, 11:08:15 am
How much of a task would it be for there to be an option to be able to limit the z level of the world?Advanced world gen can do that. Reduce all of the "z-levels above ground", "z levels between level x and level y" and the minimum/maximum elevation.
Be warned it makes pretty boring worlds and you'd have to fiddle around a bit to get one where dorfs could embark.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 16, 2015, 11:39:58 am
Post by: Vattic on September 16, 2015, 12:43:14 pm
I want all the bugs out of Dwarf Fortress yesterday, but until somebody copies Toady a bunch of times, I don't think he is likely to change his methods.Assuming they could handle multiple copies of each other working on the project simultaneously.
Post by: Dirst on September 16, 2015, 12:48:33 pm
I want all the bugs out of Dwarf Fortress yesterday, but until somebody copies Toady a bunch of times, I don't think he is likely to change his methods.Assuming they could handle multiple copies of each other working on the project simultaneously.
Toady Forty-Two: Who was working on the temperature updates?
Toady Three, Toady Nineteen, Toady Twenty-Five, Toady Thirty, Toady Thirty-Four, Toady Forty-Four, Toady Sixty-One: (in unison) I am!
Toady Forty-Two: *facepalm*
Post by: cephalo on September 16, 2015, 03:56:23 pm
I want all the bugs out of Dwarf Fortress yesterday, but until somebody copies Toady a bunch of times, I don't think he is likely to change his methods.Assuming they could handle multiple copies of each other working on the project simultaneously.
Asking for a tantrum spiral if you ask me. Laptops flying around... Threetoe hauling people to some spare room in +chains+... yeesh.
Post by: Witty on September 16, 2015, 11:39:32 pm
Post by: Amperzand on September 17, 2015, 02:15:02 am
I want all the bugs out of Dwarf Fortress yesterday, but until somebody copies Toady a bunch of times, I don't think he is likely to change his methods.Assuming they could handle multiple copies of each other working on the project simultaneously.
Asking for a tantrum spiral if you ask me. Laptops flying around... Threetoe hauling people to some spare room in +chains+... yeesh.
This sounds amazing and somebody who can art needs to draw or animate it.
Post by: Max™ on September 17, 2015, 02:20:26 am
I was amazed to encounter a cheetah hunting an ibex recently while exiting travel mode. Did you put anything in to encourage this behavior or did the game just do that?
The only thing that would have made it flawless was if the cheetah latched on with a bite and put a stranglehold on the ibex instead of clawing at the head until it died, but it was still an amazing little bit of behavior to stumble across.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 17, 2015, 02:22:04 am
Do festivals have any flavor text as for the exact reason they're being held? (like how wars have reasons for the conflict?) Will goblins have festivals in celebration of murder or the recent pillaging of the mountainhome?Toady mentioned someplace that they can commemorate historical events, like the defeat of a dragon for example.
edit: There we go:
Quote
The festivals that rise to the level of importance required for legends mode tracking are established as part of a fair in large markets with multiple trade partners, for religious purposes in temple cities, or to commemorate specific events such as the slaying of a dragon. The game looks at the values and ethics of the civilization and the overall purpose of the occasion to come up with the schedule of events -- performances, competitions (from art to various races to wrestling to etc. etc.), processions and ceremonies, with various little details.
Post by: Aquillion on September 17, 2015, 04:00:33 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 17, 2015, 04:56:40 am
Of course, we all know from our experiences with engravings that most festivals will end up celebrating things like the theft of a round of cheese by a kobold ten years ago.Commemorated annually with a fun game of Kobold rolling no doubt.
Post by: Dirst on September 17, 2015, 09:38:00 am
Quote from: Toady One
We've been continuing to work on bugs and tweaking everything... the overall list has been halved so far this month, which is a nice feeling.Release in 17 days! Overly simplistic linear extrapolation for the win...
Post by: NJW2000 on September 17, 2015, 10:59:53 am
Of course, we all know from our experiences with engravings that most festivals will end up celebrating things like the theft of a round of cheese by a kobold ten years ago.Shhh! Don't you want Saint Krildus's Cottage Cheese Kleptomancy Day off?
Post by: Alfrodo on September 17, 2015, 05:15:58 pm
Quote from: Toady OneWe've been continuing to work on bugs and tweaking everything... the overall list has been halved so far this month, which is a nice feeling.Release in 17 days! Overly simplistic linear extrapolation for the win...
I hope so. I've been waiting for the update to play. The hype is overwhelming.
Take your time toady.
Post by: NJW2000 on September 17, 2015, 05:17:49 pm
Post by: Kitsune on September 17, 2015, 07:32:49 pm
Just as I get back into dwarfiness for the first time in a while. I like my current fort. Oh well, an obsoletion timer will only make my play that much more interesting, I guess.
Will the elves ever bring something better than cloth? Will UristMcNoble every get the slade toy swords he asked for? And will UristMcMason ever finish that artifact? Or will the update consume them all?
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 17, 2015, 07:40:42 pm
Post by: Kitsune on September 18, 2015, 12:35:28 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Now everything is spoiled. I know it was all inevitable, but I wanted to believe.
Post by: Amperzand on September 18, 2015, 06:28:47 am
Speaking of, are there plans to make that less of an omni-purpose response to everything?
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 18, 2015, 10:55:50 am
And I'm not really sure of any SANE use for the "it was inevitable" response. Personally it sounds more like a reaction that's neutral regarding the event itself, but positive concerning the initiator of the event. Basically "yeah sure, I always knew you could do that" or some such thing.
Post by: iceball3 on September 18, 2015, 12:36:51 pm
Just as I get back into dwarfiness for the first time in a while. I like my current fort. Oh well, an obsoletion timer will only make my play that much more interesting, I guess.Well, you'll still have a bit of time after the release, too, where toady typically releases a flurry of bugfixes all at once before he starts working on new features, yeah?
Post by: Button on September 18, 2015, 02:21:50 pm
Quote from: Toady OneWe've been continuing to work on bugs and tweaking everything... the overall list has been halved so far this month, which is a nice feeling.Release in 17 days! Overly simplistic linear extrapolation for the win...
It was halved this month, and it will be halved next month, and halved the month after that. The release will only happen in 100 years when the tortoise dies.
Post by: monk12 on September 18, 2015, 02:56:20 pm
Quote from: Toady OneWe've been continuing to work on bugs and tweaking everything... the overall list has been halved so far this month, which is a nice feeling.Release in 17 days! Overly simplistic linear extrapolation for the win...
It was halved this month, and it will be halved next month, and halved the month after that. The release will only happen in 100 years when the tortoise dies.
HL3 confirmed.
Post by: Kitsune on September 18, 2015, 04:40:36 pm
Quote from: Toady OneWe've been continuing to work on bugs and tweaking everything... the overall list has been halved so far this month, which is a nice feeling.Release in 17 days! Overly simplistic linear extrapolation for the win...
It was halved this month, and it will be halved next month, and halved the month after that. The release will only happen in 100 years when the tortoise dies.
HL3 confirmed.
Chell as playable character and hats confirmed.
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 18, 2015, 05:05:17 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on September 18, 2015, 05:09:46 pm
It is terrifying.
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 18, 2015, 06:49:22 pm
It was inevitable.
Post by: Kitsune on September 20, 2015, 12:22:09 am
Post by: MrWiggles on September 20, 2015, 12:40:46 am
When are there going to be elaborate houses/stores in towns? (aka more elaborate multi-leveled and not wooden boxes) Are generated inns going to be multi_leveled?Question like these can be answered, "When/if human city generation gets redone. And there isn't a time line for that."
Quote
Are there going to be gods that can transform entities in the world to look like themselves? There lots of stories where dick gods change how folks look. Right now they can curse them into vampires and werewolves and other things. Presumably, their entire body will, at some point, be open for grabs to be changed.Are there going to be cults that say worship a god that is depicted as dragon that blesses devout cultists to become a dragonWill a god depicted as a dragon be able to bless a adventurer/history-figure (that do many things in the name of that god) to become a dragon/humanoid dragon and curse defilers to become kobolds? This isprobableway to specific but could work about the same with gods depicted as animals.
ToadyOne added this 'soul' thing to entities, which are independent to bodies. I imagine that offers a lot of potential flexibility to change bodies while keeping the person the same.
Post by: Kitsune on September 20, 2015, 12:44:12 am
ToadyOne added this 'soul' thing to entities, which are independent to bodies. I imagine that offers a lot of potential flexibility to change bodies while keeping the person the same.
I love the sound of that! Thanks for the response!
Post by: Putnam on September 20, 2015, 01:17:48 am
Are there going to be gods that can transform entities in the world to look like themselves? There lots of stories where dick gods change how folks look. Right now they can curse them into vampires and werewolves and other things. Presumably, their entire body will, at some point, be open for grabs to be changed.
ToadyOne added this 'soul' thing to entities, which are independent to bodies. I imagine that offers a lot of potential flexibility to change bodies while keeping the person the same.
1. Werewolves are already full body transformations, just ones that happen to happen every full moon.
2. Entities are civilizations. You're talking about units. Souls were added in 0.31.01 at the latest, just in case anyone's wondering if this is upcoming. And yeah, units keep their souls when they undergo body transformations, which are already in the game.
Post by: Amperzand on September 20, 2015, 01:38:35 am
Post by: Dirst on September 21, 2015, 04:09:07 pm
Honestly, a community-made Slaves to Armok Chapter 3 would be pretty awesome. What genre would it even be? Another RTS?Nah, it would be some kind of 4X game. You'll be able to tell the Yogscast fans because they will always always always send dwarves to the moon. Even if they have to capture some dwarven prisoners because they're playing another race.
Post by: Amperzand on September 21, 2015, 11:58:49 pm
Speaking of elephants, if I, or anyone I can influence, ever adds firearms to the game, there needs to be an Elephant Gun, preferably break-action and chambered in 30x173mm.
Post by: Rose on September 22, 2015, 04:46:50 am
Post by: cephalo on September 22, 2015, 08:52:29 am
Once we get the ability to make differently-sized clothing for our non-dwarf citizens, will traders pay more for clothing in their size?
I'm going to say no on that. Assigning values by culture is an enormous can of worms that will certainly require a major, economy based update. I can't imagine a compelling reason for a band-aid for that one issue.
EDIT: Another aspect to this question is that if our forts are multicultural, then it makes sense that other civs will also be multicultural and there may be a need for dwarf sized clothing in a human civ (for example).
Post by: Moddan on September 22, 2015, 11:15:24 pm
Post by: Vattic on September 23, 2015, 03:37:14 am
EDIT: Another aspect to this question is that if our forts are multicultural, then it makes sense that other civs will also be multicultural and there may be a need for dwarf sized clothing in a human civ (for example).Other sites already are multicultural.
Post by: Dirst on September 23, 2015, 11:30:33 am
Multiracial =/= MulticulturalEDIT: Another aspect to this question is that if our forts are multicultural, then it makes sense that other civs will also be multicultural and there may be a need for dwarf sized clothing in a human civ (for example).Other sites already are multicultural.
Things are still a bit fuzzy on how new citizens come around to the fort's ethics.
Post by: cephalo on September 23, 2015, 01:19:03 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 23, 2015, 04:46:31 pm
Still, clothing size isn't something you can learn.Why not? People aren't all one size, you know.
After hundreds/thousands of years of living together you'd think Dwarf tailors would have figured out the dimensions of a human by now. It's not like human visitors to your fort are the first encounter with an alien race...
Post by: Lielac on September 23, 2015, 06:31:48 pm
I think cephalo was comparing clothing size to cultural values. A human can learn dwarven ethics, but they couldn't become short and squat enough to fit into dwarven clothing barring magical intervention. Or vise versa, with dwarves in a human civ. So there would be a need for clothes tailored to human dimensions being shipped to the Mountainhomes, and clothes in dwarven dimensions being shipped to the rolling plains of the human holdings.Still, clothing size isn't something you can learn.Why not? People aren't all one size, you know.
After hundreds/thousands of years of living together you'd think Dwarf tailors would have figured out the dimensions of a human by now. It's not like human visitors to your fort are the first encounter with an alien race...
-slinks back into lurkerdom-
Post by: Rose on September 23, 2015, 11:29:37 pm
Post by: Vattic on September 24, 2015, 02:54:45 am
Fair point. I think cephalo meant multiracial, as I did, considering the conversation was about civs needing varied clothing sizes for their varied race citizens. Words are hard.Multiracial =/= MulticulturalEDIT: Another aspect to this question is that if our forts are multicultural, then it makes sense that other civs will also be multicultural and there may be a need for dwarf sized clothing in a human civ (for example).Other sites already are multicultural.
Things are still a bit fuzzy on how new citizens come around to the fort's ethics.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 27, 2015, 05:08:10 am
Another issue is with armor, where you may very well WANT to pre produce to have it available when you get your recruits (and to train those producing it). It'd get messy to have one logic for leather gloves and another for leather armor. Also, allowing Urist to order items would also mean you don't have control over the material used (what kind of cloth, or leather), although I guess a selection to allow/forbid leather for clothing might work. Such a system might allow Urist to ask for a specific material/color if available, but in that case the item received would have to be a "best fit" based on what's available when the item is produced (if Urist is keen on wearing "something special now and again" he might be more likely to try to order additional stuff to better fit his taste when the materials are available, possibly with a "don't bother if you can't match my request" for these extra luxury items to avoid a huge pile of unnecessary luxury items).
Would the above be worth the effort to implement? Probably not.
Post by: JesterHell696 on September 27, 2015, 07:30:29 am
Edit: answered. (Toady & MrWiggles)
Post by: MrWiggles on September 27, 2015, 08:03:31 am
Toady is the fortress mode economy ever going to return? if so how and if not why?Yes it'll return. My understanding, it has to do with figuring out what to do with Caravans, and hill dorfs. There is also the stacking issue that coins have. We should be seeing some return with the Taverns, but not what was there in 40d.
Post by: JesterHell696 on September 27, 2015, 09:50:28 pm
Yes it'll return. My understanding, it has to do with figuring out what to do with Caravans, and hill dorfs. There is also the stacking issue that coins have. We should be seeing some return with the Taverns, but not what was there in 40d.
I vaguely remember something about it returning but I was wondering if it was hearsay, wishful thinking or something Toady had actually said as the last thing I remember Toady saying about economy was something about how in some starting scenarios (Temples) it wouldn't make sense but couldn't remember where and I know that some of the people who frequent this topic keep a better track of these things then I and reply when they know, so thanks.
Toady I remember you saying something about the player affecting adventure mode personality's, can you choose both personality facets and beliefs and does it work like attribute distributions with points that you spend to increase or lower your value or do you just select a value you want?
Edit:with the addition of bards and traveling musicians will there be followers who's motivation is not death and glory?
I'm not sure if this would fit DF talk more or if its even still a thing (last one was almost 12 months ago) so I'll ask here.
Edit2: Answered. (MrWiggles)
Post by: Dirst on September 28, 2015, 04:51:40 am
I saw that in the merchant arc it says ability to hire bodyguards and buying cottages and other properties, do you see the possibility to hire farmers to till you fields, cooks to prepare food or the ability to custom order armor/weapons from a blacksmith ect.Have you tried fort mode? :P
Post by: JesterHell696 on September 28, 2015, 05:23:56 am
Have you tried fort mode? :P
Yep, I just want to play fort mode at adv mode time scale and with all the plans to make it possible to do every thing in adv mode that you can do in fort mode I was wondering if I could use a hiring system to run a fortress as an adventurer. ;D
Post by: MrWiggles on September 29, 2015, 02:30:15 am
This was talked about in DF Talf. There was even some discussion about the ability to let large swath of time pass, and playing as your avatar kid. There was some talk about everything in fort mode being able to be done in adventure mode, and everything happening in adventure mode to be respected in fort mode.
I saw that in the merchant arc it says ability to hire bodyguards and buying cottages and other properties, do you see the possibility to hire farmers to till you fields, cooks to prepare food or the ability to custom order armor/weapons from a blacksmith ect.
Post by: malvado on September 29, 2015, 04:54:28 am
Wood : not floating?
I've been a bit curious as to why wood does not currently float , I understand it might be a code issue , but shouldnt it be pretty simple to implement togheter with a direction in which it floats in case its in a river?
Are small fishing boats planned? This could potentially be combined with other fishing tools such as nets, cages and so on for catching specific species.
I know there's been talk about harbors for ocean / trade rutes , but how about using them for basic fortress use both on surface and underground? Like a dock for those sea boats or a way to get from one specified point to another with a boat. Even though we might not get "ocean traders" at the moment , it would have been nice to be able to build a harbor / dock that could be interpretated by the world game so that other entities could be in connection with you as long as they also have harbors. Even though traders and diplomats wouldnt appear due to current limitations while playing ingame , at least on paper and when you are playing another fortress in another location.
Post by: Dirst on September 29, 2015, 04:58:55 am
Might have been asked before but a few questions :These questions would fit in better at the Suggestions Forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Wood : not floating?
I've been a bit curious as to why wood does not currently float , I understand it might be a code issue , but shouldnt it be pretty simple to implement togheter with a direction in which it floats in case its in a river?
Are small fishing boats planned? This could potentially be combined with other fishing tools such as nets, cages and so on for catching specific species.
I know there's been talk about harbors for ocean / trade rutes , but how about using them for basic fortress use both on surface and underground? Like a dock for those sea boats or a way to get from one specified point to another with a boat. Even though we might not get "ocean traders" at the moment , it would have been nice to be able to build a harbor / dock that could be interpretated by the world game so that other entities could be in connection with you as long as they also have harbors. Even though traders and diplomats wouldnt appear due to current limitations while playing ingame , at least on paper and when you are playing another fortress in another location.
Post by: malvado on September 29, 2015, 05:05:08 am
Might have been asked before but a few questions :These questions would fit in better at the Suggestions Forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Wood : not floating?
I've been a bit curious as to why wood does not currently float , I understand it might be a code issue , but shouldnt it be pretty simple to implement togheter with a direction in which it floats in case its in a river?
Are small fishing boats planned? This could potentially be combined with other fishing tools such as nets, cages and so on for catching specific species.
I know there's been talk about harbors for ocean / trade rutes , but how about using them for basic fortress use both on surface and underground? Like a dock for those sea boats or a way to get from one specified point to another with a boat. Even though we might not get "ocean traders" at the moment , it would have been nice to be able to build a harbor / dock that could be interpretated by the world game so that other entities could be in connection with you as long as they also have harbors. Even though traders and diplomats wouldnt appear due to current limitations while playing ingame , at least on paper and when you are playing another fortress in another location.
I'm pretty sure they have been suggested allready , just wondering if Toady has said anything about this or if the wise one will talk about it...
Post by: JesterHell696 on September 29, 2015, 07:06:12 am
This was talked about in DF Talf. There was even some discussion about the ability to let large swath of time pass, and playing as your avatar kid. There was some talk about everything in fort mode being able to be done in adventure mode, and everything happening in adventure mode to be respected in fort mode.
Cool thanks I'll look though them again see if I can find it.
Edit: found it, its kind of funny I remember spending the whole day reading the DF talks back in 2012 when I first started playing and remembered the stuff about artifacts and magic but the adventure mode stuff was completely forgotten, probably because at the time I was only playing fortress mode and wasn't interested in adv mode.
Post by: LordBaal on September 29, 2015, 08:35:57 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on September 29, 2015, 11:01:42 am
Post by: Toady One on September 29, 2015, 11:06:21 am
Quote from: Nikita
With all this talk of knowledge-sharing, are there any plans to make civilization-wide domestication of animal species possible? So you can e.g. domesticate a Roc or a Dragon in one fortress, and have it available at embark the next time?
It was the eventual idea to get to that final step, yeah. There are various associated difficulties with that, code-wise, so it wasn't an immediate thing.
Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
Will singing songs of defeated foes mid-battle be interpreted as a taunt and/or cause opponents to re-evaluate how much of a threat you are (in either direction), or is there no such understanding currently?
They don't think of performances as taunts, but if you have a song about a relevant incident, it could pass the information and thereby alter your reputation and cause a morale change. There isn't a straightforward way of making that happen though, since we don't have full control set up in composition or improvisation (since it will be a lengthy process of creating an interface with the breadth for it).
Quote from: TheFlame52
This is more current than future, but does strength effect size in growing creatures? The dwarven child care thread has produced absolutely enormous dwarves and we were wondering if their high strength early in life is why.
There's that raw tag that makes tissue size dependent on strength for muscles. I don't know if it is related to your enormous babies.
Quote from: reality.auditor
There was already mentioned something that looks like bug. Dwarves see corpse and reacts like sentient was just killed before their very own eyes. At least this is how it is described in their personal thoughts. It goes without saying that there is big difference between seeing just lying corpse and witnessing actual killing in proccess.
Is it considered bug by you, or it is something intended?
It stores them differently, but yeah, they are quite troubled when considering the incident. It's a situation that should be improved, but we do want there to be some reaction.
Quote from: TheFlame52
With the new multi-species forts, how will creatures like trogs and gorlaks fit in? Will they be able to become citizens? I really want to make blind cave ogre shock troops now.
Gorlaks and animal people can go all the way. The slow-learner types generally haven't been given the option to become heroes or shift populations to sites. You could add the tags for that though.
Quote
Quote from: DVNOCan the new Dwarf Scribes decipher the secrets of life and death from slabs and books necromancers 'donate' to your fortress after falling into a spike trap filled with were-hyenas?Quote from: Max^TMwill transcription of the secrets of life and death involve becoming a necromancer? I assume yes but have no idea how it will end up working.
Hmmm... I don't think it has the scribes themselves "read" the material and learn it. They just copy the symbols without understanding them. The scholars can read them, and interested dwarves on their free time. Perhaps the scribes should be given more credit, though they often don't have the scientific background for the scholarly works -- that hasn't stopped the other aspiring necromancers though.
Quote
QuoteAdventurer Role: Slayer of Night Creatures: Curses and exposure
(*) The slaves of night creatures could have extreme effects from proximity that also affect you if you make a business of hunting them.Quote from: KitsuneWhat kind of "extreme effects" are there going to be?
He he he, who knows! More generally, the framework we want there would cover anything that you could get from "magic exposure", for any kind of magic -- we'd like to slowly add support for varieties of afflictions that can build up over time, co-opting the syndrome system mostly. We just need to support a few vectors for adding that kind of syndrome with the right amounts, and have it understand what's going on well enough to merge with other systems. I have no idea specifically what'll go in first. We might see the first ones with the artifact arc, but it depends on how those powers veer.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So, artists dig through their personal histories for inspiration now, that's cool. Do the engravers and sculptors do that right now? I seem to recall only seeing past history of the fortress location (and the fortress) in my works.
If they're not doing so already, will fortress artists draw on their own personal histories for inspiration now?
And: Will that personal history effect personalities in the next release? Dislikes gorlaks due to childhood trauma. Fearless since surviving dragon attack at age of 7 or some such stuff.
The engravers/crafters use an older routine that was more centered around doing stuff for the fort, where the new artists consider their whole experience. Presumably, fort artists should be a bit more fort-centered (though they use their own prefs oftentimes), but we'll have to see what happens as we get to the specific commissions and so on. We haven't done any personality changes as you describe, just the values stuff we mentioned.
Quote from: iceball3
Which of the upcoming arks are you considering for making various temperature related tweaks/adjustments/reworks, if any? Mainly concerning how temperature affects bodies of creatures in moderate conditions, but I'm curious if you have anything else planned in temperature nonetheless.
In it's current state, temperature is kind of wonky, though understandably it gets the job done for extremes, so it would make sense if nothing is planned at the current juncture.
I'm not sure when the next set of changes will occur here. Could happen with the artifact stuff if it blows that way, or it might wait until we get into some of the exploration stuff.
Quote from: SimRobert2001
I remember a year or two ago when I researched the various effects of metals on the human system. (Lead leading to mental deficiencies, for example.) What became of that information?
Do you mean as an official project? I don't remember organizing that, though there was a lot going on during the medical additions. If it is posted on the suggestion forum, then it is probably hanging out in the notes somewhere.
Quote from: Eric Blank
When an unskilled fool joins a performance and totally blows it, will this be reflected by the audience and other performers' reactions? So, can they in a sense crash the party, ruin the mood? Does their poor performance only affect themselves, eg. "Urist is known to be a terrible dancer" or does the outcome of that one fool's sloppy performance affect how audiences view the rest of the performers and the performance overall?
Similarly, if one performer in a dance/song/what-have-you that requires at least two participants performs well, and the other poorly, does the performance of one affect the performance of the other? (eg, if one does horribly, do their mistakes prevent the other from performing to the best of their abilities as well, such that they interfere with one-another not just on a reputation level but by actually mucking up the skill rolls of the others involved.)
Yeah, the overall performance quality can be affected by an unskilled performer, though people can tease apart the performers so it isn't a total loss in terms of rep. If you have a troupe, you can prevent people from spoiling your performances, but if you are just starting up a song in a bar by yourself, anybody might jump in. You could strategically pick a form without additional voices. It doesn't yet let you glare at people or otherwise establish your solo status in advance.
Rolls are currently independent. It would be funny if people could trip each other though, with saving-throw type rolls to recover both dancers, and so on.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Do you plan on adding any features of DFhack to the main game? Things like additional interfaces or adding spatters with reactions?
I don't know what the features are. Reactions and interactions will be expanded over time (I expect the upcoming artifact arc will have various additions).
Quote from: Appelgren
How does reactions to performances work?
Is the emotion system involved, more than in a basic "good performance = happy feelings" way. For instance, could a ribald poem (intended to praise a lover) make a dwarf randy or embarrassed?
It goes a touch beyond good/bad, making use of prefs and a few traits vs. content, but it isn't super-duper-interesting either.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
How much are festivals implemented for adventure mode in the upcoming release? I assume you won't be able to take part in the games yet, but can you see them happening?
Also, Talking of goblin dancers coming to visit, will it be possible as a non-goblin adventurer to visit the local dark fortress and take part in their poetry reading sessions (assuming you aren't at war)? Or will the inhabitants all try to kill you the moment you arrive?
Nah, we wanted to get there as kind of a culmination of the adv stuff for this release, but it just isn't in the cards time-wise. I'm not sure when we'll get to it now. Maybe when we add candles. A lot of the processions have candles.
They still all try to kill you over there as part of their ethics. We'll have to wait for things to be more nuanced before you can visit.
Quote from: Witty
Do festivals have any flavor text as for the exact reason they're being held? (like how wars have reasons for the conflict?) Will goblins have festivals in celebration of murder or the recent pillaging of the mountainhome?
Yeah, there's information for every festival in legends mode about why it was organized. The themes can depend on the society.
Quote from: Max^TM
I was amazed to encounter a cheetah hunting an ibex recently while exiting travel mode. Did you put anything in to encourage this behavior or did the game just do that?
There's a predator-prey unit reaction type, I remember that much, for LARGE_PREDATOR to use on the others. I don't recall if I made the predators chase properly, but if they did, they do. They won't eat the bodies or anything.
Quote from: Amperzand
It was inevitable.
Speaking of, are there plans to make that less of an omni-purpose response to everything?
Yeah, that's the response when there isn't anything else programmed. It has to be handled instance by instance. Over time things will improve.
Quote from: Kitsune
Will a god depicted as a dragon be able to bless a adventurer/history-figure (that do many things in the name of that god) to become a dragon/humanoid dragon and curse defilers to become kobolds? This is way too specific but could work about the same with gods depicted as animals.
As different interactions are added to the game, and different goings-on, we'll have more leeway to categorize and group and restrict based on qualities. Hopefully we'll be able to get into that a bit for the artifact release, since we'll have the creation myth generator to leverage and that's the point of it.
Quote from: Japa
Once we get the ability to make differently-sized clothing for our non-dwarf citizens, will traders pay more for clothing in their size?
Hmm... I'm not sure if they'd care. They have price alterations based on random stuff over the years, but I don't think they consider that. Could be wrong. Could go in when I do it.
Quote from: JesterHell696
Toady is the fortress mode economy ever going to return? if so how and if not why?
We were hoping to do a bit this time, but it didn't turn out that way. It's hard to do it justice without some more information, and we're going to be setting up a lot of the framework in the release after the artifact release. After that release, we'll have outlying dependent sites, status, customs, property, law and all sorts of useful stuff. Then we'll have to see where we branch -- we could get right into production and caravans and agriculture, or we might go somewhere else. The framework is meant to handle the economy, the justice system, and more nuanced diplomacy -- many avenues will open at once. That's three big pushes down the line, so it would be pointless to speculate more.
Quote from: JesterHell696
Toady I remember you saying something about the player affecting adventure mode personality's, can you choose both personality facets and beliefs and does it work like attribute distributions with points that you spend to increase or lower your value or do you just select a value you want?
Edit:with the addition of bards and traveling musicians will there be followers who's motivation is not death and glory?
You can either randomize your personality and values according to your creature type and culture (just tapping 'r' until you get a paragraph/needs you like), or you can go in and set your values/personality facet by facet manually (in a gigantic slider list). Your personality in the latter case is still restricted by creature type (so you can't make a very altruistic goblin), but you can set as many values outside of your culture as you want (instead of the standard 3 or so). It isn't based on a point system, since one personality isn't supposed to be better than another (though there will always be min-maxy settings that you can use to make your character have fewer needs, etc.).
Yeah, you can have your performance troupe that just wants to perform, with no wanna-die checks at all.
Quote from: malvado
Wood : not floating?
I've been a bit curious as to why wood does not currently float , I understand it might be a code issue , but shouldnt it be pretty simple to implement togheter with a direction in which it floats in case its in a river?
Are small fishing boats planned? This could potentially be combined with other fishing tools such as nets, cages and so on for catching specific species.
I know there's been talk about harbors for ocean / trade rutes , but how about using them for basic fortress use both on surface and underground? Like a dock for those sea boats or a way to get from one specified point to another with a boat. Even though we might not get "ocean traders" at the moment , it would have been nice to be able to build a harbor / dock that could be interpretated by the world game so that other entities could be in connection with you as long as they also have harbors. Even though traders and diplomats wouldnt appear due to current limitations while playing ingame , at least on paper and when you are playing another fortress in another location.
Floating: it's just a somewhat annoying problem CPU-wise, and low-priority, so it hasn't been done.
Once we manage to get boats floating around there's no reason not to have them visit a seaside or navigable-river fort, but I don't anticipate doing it before that. We're hoping to do small boats when we do boats in general, to make the human waterfronts interesting especially at first, and then for boaty purposes.
Post by: LordBaal on September 29, 2015, 12:35:12 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on September 29, 2015, 12:42:47 pm
Thanks for those answers Toady!
Post by: malvado on September 29, 2015, 12:52:23 pm
Consider me the first one to test out wood floating in the future whenever it gets implemented :D
Post by: PTTG?? on September 29, 2015, 02:14:06 pm
Post by: origamiscienceguy on September 29, 2015, 03:55:27 pm
Post by: cephalo on September 29, 2015, 04:19:29 pm
Will there ever be an incentive to keep your dwarves clean? Diseases maybe?
Injuries get infected if your dwarves aren't clean I believe.
Post by: PTTG?? on September 29, 2015, 04:26:40 pm
Will there ever be an incentive to keep your dwarves clean? Diseases maybe?
Gonna be honest, there's no way to keep dwarves clean if they don't take the time to do it themselves, so all that does is punish players if the RNG determines that a specific dwarf is a slob and starts spreading disease everywhere.
Post by: Kitsune on September 29, 2015, 04:28:22 pm
Thanks for those answers Toady!
Post by: Alfrodo on September 29, 2015, 05:42:50 pm
Thanks for the answers anyway.
Post by: JesterHell696 on September 29, 2015, 08:46:28 pm
Post by: iceball3 on September 29, 2015, 08:52:26 pm
Are people going to have further reservations against engaging in combat with upcoming emotional tweaks? As it is, if there is something that is considered a civ enemy, the dwarf civilians tend to opt for engaging it in combat if it is not threatening enough (say, a wild Dingo Man who got in a scuffle with one of the war dogs), or is the current behavior intended?
Will we be able to issue orders to dwarves, military or not, to avoid engaging certain units, or otherwise force/order them to provide quarter to their opponents?
It has been rather worrying seeing large amounts of completely passive dingo people crossing the map, only to get jumped by my war dogs... And several civilians who happen to be nearby. Everyone involved was Horrified at seeing the corpse of a sentient, but they were the ones who jumped someone who had only tried fleeing.
Post by: Dirst on September 30, 2015, 05:07:23 am
iceball3, I'm just imagining your woodcutter hiding in a corner, covered head-to-toe in dingo man blood, rocking back and forth muttering "What have I done?"
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on September 30, 2015, 05:50:04 am
You can either randomize your personality and values according to your creature type and culture (just tapping 'r' until you get a paragraph/needs you like), or you can go in and set your values/personality facet by facet manually (in a gigantic slider list). Your personality in the latter case is still restricted by creature type (so you can't make a very altruistic goblin), but you can set as many values outside of your culture as you want (instead of the standard 3 or so). It isn't based on a point system, since one personality isn't supposed to be better than another (though there will always be min-maxy settings that you can use to make your character have fewer needs, etc.).
So there is a relatively easy way to view the values of different civilizations outside Fortress mode! Unfortunately not for the values of goblins and kobolds without modding and it's certainly a bit clunky, but it's better than nothing.
Post by: thedrelle on September 30, 2015, 11:32:53 am
They still all try to kill you over there as part of their ethics. We'll have to wait for things to be more nuanced before you can visit.
It is unethical for a goblin to not kill dwarves, elves or humans who crash their poetry readings.
Post by: NJW2000 on September 30, 2015, 11:38:15 am
Post by: Max™ on September 30, 2015, 01:52:18 pm
Post by: LordBaal on September 30, 2015, 02:45:35 pm
Oh dear, being able to change your personality and have it matter, and sliders, why am I excited about sliders?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Porto on September 30, 2015, 03:31:09 pm
Oh dear, being able to change your personality and have it matter, and sliders, why am I excited about sliders?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Such a great show.
Post by: Urist McVoyager on September 30, 2015, 09:08:18 pm
How will visitors petitioning to become citizens interact with population caps? I assume the petitions themselves will work like Liaison visits where we get a new screen with the relevant information and a choice about the petitioner. Will we still get those petitions even if we've already hit our cap?
Post by: Kitsune on October 01, 2015, 12:24:58 am
Oh dear, being able to change your personality and have it matter, and sliders, why am I excited about sliders?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Such a great show.
Who names there
Post by: forfor on October 01, 2015, 03:29:01 am
edit: Lord Baal: sorry, I'm new to the forum XD
Post by: LordBaal on October 01, 2015, 07:09:39 am
Post by: Adrian on October 01, 2015, 08:47:07 am
ie. For the imprisonment of the valued upper class, the banishment of a troublemaker, making a certain deity the official fortress religion, a declaration of war, etc.
Post by: Dirst on October 01, 2015, 08:55:27 am
Will people petitioning the fortress be a mechanic designed for that single purpose, or will it be part of a framework allowing for different kinds of petitions?I want a pony!
ie. For the imprisonment of the valued upper class, the banishment of a troublemaker, making a certain deity the official fortress religion, a declaration of war, etc.
A system like the old fashioned SimCity "biggest problems facing the city survey" would be useful. The problem is the screen will be clogged with the elves asking you to spare the trees, dwarves petitioning for the expulsion of their grudges, and indecipherable graffiti from kobolds.
Post by: Urist McVoyager on October 01, 2015, 09:26:46 am
Post by: Tilogour on October 01, 2015, 11:16:38 am
As I remember historial figures can do that.
Post by: Knight Otu on October 01, 2015, 03:21:54 pm
Are you going to add possibility to tame wild animals in adventure mode?Eventually, something like that should be able to happen. It's mostly a question on how the historical figures do it, and how the new knowledge system. I can't find the relevant quotes right now, though.
As I remember historial figures can do that.
Post by: Witty on October 01, 2015, 09:05:06 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 01, 2015, 10:40:36 pm
Do dwarven children (and children in general, I presume) get any negative thoughts if there are no toys to play with? Also, how does a child determine which toys they can play with? Will they just take things they like from the stockpile? Wouldn't this cause some issues if you intend to trade those items?- Urist McChild has bestowed the name Magma the Death of Elves on a copper mini-forge.
- Urist McChild is depressed due to the sale of a favorite toy
- Dwarven Children are performing a satirical play based on the loss of Magma the Death of Elves the copper mini-forge
- Urist McChild is tantruming!!
Post by: LordBaal on October 02, 2015, 05:35:57 am
If that's the case I predict an 140% increase of magma incidents involving children.Do dwarven children (and children in general, I presume) get any negative thoughts if there are no toys to play with? Also, how does a child determine which toys they can play with? Will they just take things they like from the stockpile? Wouldn't this cause some issues if you intend to trade those items?- Urist McChild has bestowed the name Magma the Death of Elves on a copper mini-forge.
- Urist McChild is depressed due to the sale of a favorite toy
- Dwarven Children are performing a satirical play based on the loss of Magma the Death of Elves the copper mini-forge
- Urist McChild is tantruming!!
Post by: cephalo on October 02, 2015, 09:25:02 am
Do dwarven children (and children in general, I presume) get any negative thoughts if there are no toys to play with? Also, how does a child determine which toys they can play with? Will they just take things they like from the stockpile? Wouldn't this cause some issues if you intend to trade those items?- Urist McChild has bestowed the name Magma the Death of Elves on a copper mini-forge.
- Urist McChild is depressed due to the sale of a favorite toy
- Dwarven Children are performing a satirical play based on the loss of Magma the Death of Elves the copper mini-forge
- Urist McChild is tantruming!!
Heheh, toys will be the doom of every fortress. It's the new minting of coins.
Post by: omega_dwarf on October 02, 2015, 09:48:18 am
Expansion on that:
Potential attributes: strength (toy axes/toy hammers), agility (toy axes/hammers, toy boats), endurance (mini-forges), disease resistance (with pets), focus (having a toy to play with), analytical ability (puzzleboxes), willpower (higher-quality [more difficult] puzzleboxes? Other children competing for the same toys?), creativity (all toys), patience (lack of toys), spatial sense (toy forges, toy axes/hammers), kinesthetic sense (toy axes/hammers, toy boats)
Potential skills: balance, coordination, axeman/hammerman, dodger, fighter, kicker, striker, thrower, wrestler, misc. object user, armor/shield user, climber, concentration
Other skills children might have something in, depending on circumstances (some are already in, I think): fisher, trapper, animal trainer, cook, wood burner, herbalist, tracker
Edit: This is my first FotF question (I think), so lmk if I did anything wrong.
Post by: Inarius on October 02, 2015, 10:22:55 am
Edit: This is my first FotF question (I think), so lmk if I did anything wrong.
No, it's fine :)
I have four questions :
Will other races (for example goblins and humans) play too ?
Will we see children play in Adventure mode, too ?
If goblins and humans play too, what is the determinent of "being able to play". Can animal-people children play too ? Or any other intelligent race ?
Could a Dwarf children without arm play, too ? (And by that, I'm also asking about any other race who cannot manipulate with fingers)
Post by: Button on October 02, 2015, 01:16:21 pm
Do you anticipate any workshops moving to the raws in this release?
Do you have an idea of when you plan to move the remaining workshops into the raws?
Do you anticipate any new workshops in this release, or only new activity zones?
Post by: MrWiggles on October 02, 2015, 10:19:52 pm
If this was going to happen, it would have more then likely appeared in the update blog.
Do you anticipate any workshops moving to the raws in this release?
Quote
When it becomes relevant to whats currently being worked on in the game.
Do you have an idea of when you plan to move the remaining workshops into the raws?
Quote
If there were any new workshops they would have been mention inside the update blog.
Do you anticipate any new workshops in this release, or only new activity zones?
Post by: lethosor on October 02, 2015, 10:23:24 pm
Post by: Kitsune on October 03, 2015, 01:23:43 am
Will there be singing (and not the story telling/poetry stuff)?
Post by: Cruxador on October 03, 2015, 01:48:31 pm
You should consider looking into it when you get past the initial bugfixes after this release. Some of the stuff they've done is really cool, and although I imagine you won't care to incorporate much of it, it's definitely worth spending a couple hours at least looking at what they've done, and maybe looking deeper if something interests you.Quote from: TheFlame52Do you plan on adding any features of DFhack to the main game? Things like additional interfaces or adding spatters with reactions?
I don't know what the features are.
Post by: MrWiggles on October 03, 2015, 09:57:05 pm
To be fair, Toady doesn't mention a lot of raw-related changes in the devlog - for example, he didn't mention that brewing was moved to the raws prior to 0.40.01.Yea, but he has a history of talking about changes to the workshop.
Post by: WordsandChaos on October 04, 2015, 11:18:48 am
First: Are there any plans, however far in the future, for expanding relationship types? At the moment we have a number of positive relationship types, but only a single negative relationship type - Grudges. Do you plan to divide the negative relationship types up at some point in the future so that players can see why a Dwarf might dislike another? grudges at the moment see to cover everythign from mild disdain to murderous hatred. It'd be interesting, if feasible, to narrow that down into categories - envy, rivalry, obsessive, dislike, hate, etc. I'm really interested by the potential to elaborate on the stories that we are currently able to abstract from the interactions of our dwarves under the current relations system, by providing more varied sources of !!Drama!!
Second: Do you have any further plans for the catacombs and other underground areas? At the moment they're interesting to walk around, but they're mostly just filled with statues and are otherwise empty, negating any good reason to explore them.
Edit: Cleaned my first question up a bit.
Post by: Putnam on October 04, 2015, 12:46:52 pm
"You are a killer. You killed Avuz the Flames of Fortune. You are a legendary hero. You are a pleasure to speak with."
Post by: WordsandChaos on October 04, 2015, 02:11:41 pm
Post by: Camulus on October 04, 2015, 09:21:11 pm
The prospect of children playing make believe has brought an interesting question to my mind.
Will it be possible for the player to be fooled by their dwarve's imaginations, whether by rumors, lies or lapses in judgement ?
For example, the ancient "cry wolf" fable, where a dwarven child may act as if it has seen a terrible monster in the caverns, or believe that it has, spreading this story to the adult dwarves and if a certain percentage of the population believe it, a message for the player pops up stating "So and so has arrived" even though it has not.
The same goes for a drunk wandering into the tavern, shouting that an army is approaching (while it may merely be travelers heading to fortress), where the player may get a message of an approaching siege or some of the more gullible dwarves may head into a panic, even going so far as to attack the travelers.
I am not quite sure whether this psychological state idea is a viable implementation to the game, but I imagine it can be quite entertaining and chaotic if done realistically.
This is my first time utilizing this thread, not sure whether this post would be better suited within the suggestion subforum?
My question got me thinking of another question:
Will there be provisions for myth creation within the world at a later stage? With creatures and gods created within the minds of the races that in fact do not exist. This may be an interesting addition to religion and legends mode in general.
Something along the lines of "Archexion was a mythical being within the The Golden Hammers. It was believed to be a great two-headed dragon who swam the oceans of the world and had an outer shell of obsidian. It was associated with drownings and famine."
Doomsday myths, local legends(of supposedly cursed places and haunted houses) can also exist, all meshing in with the lies and rumors system above.
Post by: MrWiggles on October 05, 2015, 01:48:56 am
(http://puu.sh/kyUxW/f8ff12c18e.png)Yes. Or well, thats a goal. Weather or not the player is fooled, would probably depend on the players wit and perception. This was started with vampires, and dorfs having the ability to go missing, as these are steps to provide the player with more imperfect information. Right now Players don't have to act on the accusation of a dorf on nother dorf, when the suspect is obviously erroneous or the vampire is known by the player. The groundwork for in fortress mode crime is already in place as well.
Will it be possible for the player to be fooled by their dwarve's imaginations, whether by rumors, lies or lapses in judgement ?
Post by: forfor on October 05, 2015, 02:44:11 pm
Post by: Robsoie on October 05, 2015, 04:50:21 pm
Will it be possible for the player to be fooled by their dwarve's imaginations, whether by rumors, lies or lapses in judgement ?That would be great if in adventure mode the npc you're talking to are able to lie about a subject or exaggerate/downplay it to serve their own interest and end into trying to manipulate the player characters.
I can imagine a mayor that dislike you and find your presence in his town unacceptable telling you about a wolf that has killed some sheeps in the farms , and that it would be great for the town farmers that you should kill it in a specific location.
Only for you to run instead into the lair of a night troll whole family.
Post by: DarkwingUK on October 05, 2015, 04:52:31 pm
I hope two questions is ok!
I noticed in some recent posts that you said that you might wait on games until the economy comes in later on. Does that mean that you are considering reducing taverns part 2 to just recipes and moving more quickly to artifacts? Or are there more things that you plan to add in taverns part 2?
Also, I was wondering how you conceptualise the fog of war within fortress mode. I notice that there is the thing happening that the caverns are obscured until we start exploring them. But it seems that once tiles are revealed, that we can generally see monsters in those tiles whether or not they can be seen by an individual dwarf. Is it a design decision to let the player see creatures that dwarves can't see? Or is your idea that later, we will be limited to knowing what our dwarves know? Just curious!
Post by: thedrelle on October 06, 2015, 11:48:57 am
Will it be possible for the player to be fooled by their dwarve's imaginations, whether by rumors, lies or lapses in judgement ?That would be great if in adventure mode the npc you're talking to are able to lie about a subject or exaggerate/downplay it to serve their own interest and end into trying to manipulate the player characters.
I can imagine a mayor that dislike you and find your presence in his town unacceptable telling you about a wolf that has killed some sheeps in the farms , and that it would be great for the town farmers that you should kill it in a specific location.
Only for you to run instead into the lair of a night troll whole family.
I would love to see the visiting diplomat lying about events that have occurred around you. like the elven caravan diplomat boasting about his community successfully destroying several human villages, only to hear from humans in your tavern that that totally hasn't happened.
Post by: Kitsune on October 06, 2015, 12:54:32 pm
Will it be possible for the player to be fooled by their dwarve's imaginations, whether by rumors, lies or lapses in judgement ?That would be great if in adventure mode the npc you're talking to are able to lie about a subject or exaggerate/downplay it to serve their own interest and end into trying to manipulate the player characters.
I can imagine a mayor that dislike you and find your presence in his town unacceptable telling you about a wolf that has killed some sheeps in the farms , and that it would be great for the town farmers that you should kill it in a specific location. :P
Only for you to run instead into the lair of a night troll whole family.
I would love to see the visiting diplomat lying about events that have occurred around you. like the elven caravan diplomat boasting about his community successfully destroying several human villages, only to hear from humans in your tavern that that totally hasn't happened.
"Dwarfs! Who are you gonna believe us might elves or that human that knows noth-
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also
Toady what are you going to do differentiate transformations that change a npc's soul/mind (like spouse conversation) and transformations that do not? Will willpower have any effect on the transformation of there mind/soul?
Post by: Tilogour on October 06, 2015, 01:22:19 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I understand my hero don't know where he is in
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
(BTW: I can't sleep if I'm in territory of enemy civ)
Do you intend to something with this (a little change) or it's fine and it's done well now?[/color]
I'm sorry for my English. I hope you can understand me.
Post by: Amperzand on October 06, 2015, 01:37:34 pm
Post by: reality.auditor on October 06, 2015, 04:29:44 pm
Post by: Gorobay on October 06, 2015, 07:18:06 pm
Post by: Alfrodo on October 06, 2015, 07:49:59 pm
How do you pronounce “Cichi Cichi”, the name of the poisonous berry from Threetoe’s stories?
Si - Che Si - Che
Source: Microsoft Anna
Post by: darkflagrance on October 07, 2015, 10:09:23 am
Quote from: bay12 twitter
"Hey Tarn, will we have undead trumpeters in the next version?"
Only vampires. When the zombie's soul is deleted, it forgets all its tunes.
NOOOOO! Tell me at least that musically-inclined necromancers will at some point be able to command their skeletons/zombies to play instruments and conduct Bone Orchestras?
Post by: LordBaal on October 07, 2015, 10:20:09 am
(http://i.imgur.com/bvqvRa0.gif)
Post by: lobster1050 on October 08, 2015, 01:36:57 am
Post by: UristMcTruman on October 08, 2015, 07:49:30 am
Post by: Dirst on October 08, 2015, 07:57:02 am
Will there be salt evaporation ponds in order to harvest and export salt? This could be cool for coastal fortresses -or towns- to be able to send their production in the inland regions.I think we'll see if there is a place for additives/spices when recipes come out. In the meantime, it's much dwarfier to just mine rock salt :)
Post by: thedrelle on October 08, 2015, 12:03:06 pm
Will there be salt evaporation ponds in order to harvest and export salt? This could be cool for coastal fortresses -or towns- to be able to send their production in the inland regions.I think we'll see if there is a place for additives/spices when recipes come out. In the meantime, it's much dwarfier to just mine rock salt :)
WHAT!?! Collect salt from water?!? PREPOSTEROUS!
Post by: Kitsune on October 08, 2015, 05:10:10 pm
Will there be salt evaporation ponds in order to harvest and export salt? This could be cool for coastal fortresses -or towns- to be able to send their production in the inland regions.I think we'll see if there is a place for additives/spices when recipes come out. In the meantime, it's much dwarfier to just mine rock salt :)
WHAT!?! Collect salt from water?!? PREPOSTEROUS!
Salt from water should be called ELF SALT!
Post by: LordBaal on October 08, 2015, 09:03:46 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on October 08, 2015, 09:33:31 pm
I dont get it. Invaders are coming from populations now? Or the goblins were butchering the mounts mid siege?Yea, they been coming from populations since the last major update I believe.
Is there any plans for tree nuts (hazelnuts, pecans, almonds etc.)? Right now, it is impossible to gather them like fruits or berries.If those tree exist in the game currently, then probably. Unknown time table when it'll happen. If they aren't, then probably when above ground ecology is revisited.
Post by: Putnam on October 08, 2015, 10:05:45 pm
I dont get it. Invaders are coming from populations now? Or the goblins were butchering the mounts mid siege?Yea, they been coming from populations since the last major update I believe.
Three major updates ago; 0.40.14 and 0.40.20 were both major updates.
Post by: gordy on October 08, 2015, 10:43:51 pm
Quote
Salt from water should be called ELF SALT!
You made me snort my tea!
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 08, 2015, 11:26:18 pm
Post by: thedrelle on October 09, 2015, 10:50:52 am
Nah, elf salt would be derived from elf blood, following the usual creature-material logic. Which winds up making it the most dwarvenly elf thing ever.
got us there.
so the ruling is:
Extracting Salt from the ground :dwarvenly
Extracting salt from the Sea : Frou frou Elvenly
Extracting salt from the blood of the elves : Epic dwarvenly
Post by: LordBaal on October 09, 2015, 10:51:53 am
Completely forgot about it. Thanks.I dont get it. Invaders are coming from populations now? Or the goblins were butchering the mounts mid siege?Yea, they been coming from populations since the last major update I believe.
Three major updates ago; 0.40.14 and 0.40.20 were both major updates.
Post by: crazyabe on October 09, 2015, 10:53:23 am
Extracted salt from the blood of elves, would likely be edible for vampires as well...Nah, elf salt would be derived from elf blood, following the usual creature-material logic. Which winds up making it the most dwarvenly elf thing ever.
got us there.
so the ruling is:
Extracting Salt from the ground :dwarvenly
Extracting salt from the Sea : Frou frou Elvenly
Extracting salt from the blood of the elves : Epic dwarvenly
Post by: Vattic on October 09, 2015, 11:02:26 am
Post by: crazyabe on October 09, 2015, 11:05:09 am
What if it's an underground sea you are getting the salt water from?I belive that falls under "Extracting Salt from the ground."
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on October 09, 2015, 12:15:59 pm
Post by: falcc on October 09, 2015, 12:21:26 pm
and
You mentioned on twitter that invading armies don't really know why they're there right now, and so they can't be swayed by music, or really anything else to give up their murderous/thieving intentions. Once you have a different system in place (whenever that will be) do you intend to have invaders judging the situation at the fort as individuals or will they continue to have more of a generalized morale?
I imagine there has to be some CPU issues with having every invader's personality coming into play, but it would be really neat to eventually have humans drafting their bards into the army and having them get caught up in beautiful music the Dwarves are playing, and maybe defecting. Or getting caught up in a dance that knocks them off a cliff. All very humorous things.
Post by: finka on October 09, 2015, 12:35:04 pm
I think I seen Toady commenting on false rumours/achievments/etc that for now it would be too much work, so it got delayed to unspecified time (see you in few years).Not only that, but that it requires careful thought how to implement false rumours/etc. so that the unwitting player encountering them for the first time realises that it's not a bug.
Post by: Kitsune on October 09, 2015, 03:07:32 pm
QuoteSalt from water should be called ELF SALT!
You made me snort my tea!
I'm sorry I wasn't trying to make you snort tea. Be happy the tea snorting didn't somehow kill you, I know I'm happy I'm not a tea snort murderer.
PS don't do drugs or snort tea, drink tea.
Post by: Crandal on October 09, 2015, 04:27:40 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on October 09, 2015, 05:46:39 pm
With the addition of potential animal-people to Fortress Mode, will we see adjustments and fixes to the old flight and swimming pathing issues that keep units from flying or swimming and get them stuck?Eventually, more then likely. Though ToadyOne hasnt said he worked on those pathing issues for this release, so its unlikely they're there.
I suspect they'll get revisited when pathfinding gets revisited, which maybe when we get boats or other multitile things that move.
Post by: crazyabe on October 09, 2015, 05:51:00 pm
we do have ONE multitile thing, or did you forget about Wagons, i would guess that the fixes would be part of the bug fixes after the releaseWith the addition of potential animal-people to Fortress Mode, will we see adjustments and fixes to the old flight and swimming pathing issues that keep units from flying or swimming and get them stuck?Adjustments. Eventually, more then likely. Though ToadyOne hasnt said he worked on those pathing issues for this release, so its unlikely they're there.
I suspect they'll get revisited when pathfinding gets revisited, which maybe when we get boats or other multitile things that move.
Post by: forfor on October 09, 2015, 08:45:55 pm
Post by: crazyabe on October 09, 2015, 08:47:21 pm
Does tea snorting fall under throwing or misc. objects in terms of combat skill? ;)Nether, it falls under drug use ;D
Post by: MrWiggles on October 09, 2015, 08:51:54 pm
The Wagon is a special case. And when ToadyOne talked about multitile creatures or boats, the Wagon was never brought up as an example as to how ThreeToe or ToadyOne will want to solve those issues.we do have ONE multitile thing, or did you forget about Wagons, i would guess that the fixes would be part of the bug fixes after the releaseWith the addition of potential animal-people to Fortress Mode, will we see adjustments and fixes to the old flight and swimming pathing issues that keep units from flying or swimming and get them stuck?Eventually, more then likely. Though ToadyOne hasnt said he worked on those pathing issues for this release, so its unlikely they're there.
I suspect they'll get revisited when pathfinding gets revisited, which maybe when we get boats or other multitile things that move.
Post by: crazyabe on October 09, 2015, 08:53:51 pm
Still they are a simple MTCThe Wagon is a special case. And when ToadyOne talked about multitile creatures or boats, the Wagon was never brought up as an example as to how ThreeToe or ToadyOne will want to solve those issues.we do have ONE multitile thing, or did you forget about Wagons, i would guess that the fixes would be part of the bug fixes after the releaseWith the addition of potential animal-people to Fortress Mode, will we see adjustments and fixes to the old flight and swimming pathing issues that keep units from flying or swimming and get them stuck?Eventually, more then likely. Though ToadyOne hasnt said he worked on those pathing issues for this release, so its unlikely they're there.
I suspect they'll get revisited when pathfinding gets revisited, which maybe when we get boats or other multitile things that move.
(Multi Tile Creature)
Post by: GoblinCookie on October 10, 2015, 05:25:52 am
Post by: SimRobert2001 on October 10, 2015, 05:33:07 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 10, 2015, 06:43:22 am
I know this isn't part of the release, but how is a wagon in its current state, different from the multi-tile creatures you WANT to create?Probably won't get much more than, 'the wagon code is old and wouldn't work properly.'
Here's a quote from an interview (basically, wagons don't path):
Quote
Has creating multi-tile trees made multi-tile hostile monsters more plausible?
It has made large single-tile monsters look more ridiculous, but the code isn't really related. My only real problem with multi-tile critters, if I remember, is the pathfinding.
[deleted]930d, 10h23
Huh... does that mean that wagon paths are somewhat worked out ahead of time (since you can display wagon-accessible paths on the fly)?
I suppose it's pretty simple to calculate whether or not a wagon can fit somewhere and pathfinding is an entirely different beast.
TarnAdams930d, 10h54
Yeah, wagon paths are a special case. If I tried to use that code for a bunch of monsters the game would die, and wagons don't consider most places. It's not an impossible problem, but it's difficult to make fast, I think.
Post by: MrWiggles on October 10, 2015, 09:04:50 pm
And the Wagons cant jump or climb either. And ToadyOne has spoken about wanting smaller creatures to climb larger creatures to.
The problem with boats, thats been brought up so far, is what to do when boats travel diagonally is that the volume of the boat changes. Boats would also require creatures to climb ropes. Which was on the to-do list pretty recently (recently in terms of releases), but it was axed do to problems.
Post by: Forwe on October 11, 2015, 02:09:57 am
Are there any plans to allow modding specifics of ranged weapons(like amount of ammo held, reload time, projectiles fired in one shot),
and to change reloading to seperate action(for example, you can shoot, and immediately after that stow your crossbow and draw your sword)
Post by: LordBaal on October 11, 2015, 06:27:55 am
I'm sorry if it has been asked already, but:It's one of my biggest desires. Specially the different reloading speeds. Generally a crossbow should take more time to reload but have better armour penetration than a bow and son on... and having your marksmen employing proper meele weapons would be glorious (but somehow disastrous for your population if the dwarf police don't use the featherwood crossbows in beatings anymore).
Are there any plans to allow modding specifics of ranged weapons(like amount of ammo held, reload time, projectiles fired in one shot),
and to change reloading to seperate action(for example, you can shoot, and immediately after that stow your crossbow and draw your sword)
As everything, this is planned, not release date. I bet most likely when armies reworks comes around.
Post by: isitanos on October 11, 2015, 06:25:06 pm
Post by: Dirst on October 12, 2015, 10:06:28 pm
Reading about how performers can make mistakes made me wonder whether pupils (or fans that only saw the performance once or twice) can misinterpret their master's work, potentially creating all new forms of dance and poetry based on a mistake. That would be both hilarious and wonderful.This explains twerking.
Post by: Kitsune on October 12, 2015, 10:40:11 pm
Reading about how performers can make mistakes made me wonder whether pupils (or fans that only saw the performance once or twice) can misinterpret their master's work, potentially creating all new forms of dance and poetry based on a mistake. That would be both hilarious and wonderful.This explains twerking.
That's a big mistake. If pupils can misinterpret dance/poetry and make new forms of dance and stuff (as stated by isitanos) will drinking increase the chance of misinterpretation?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 12, 2015, 10:45:47 pm
Edit: Oh wait, did you mean population caps before sieges start, or actual caps on number of sieging baddies?
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 13, 2015, 03:40:25 am
Post by: MrWiggles on October 13, 2015, 07:57:24 am
Pretty sure no one can get drunk yet. Though you could make them get drunk with the raws by adding a syndrome for drunkiness. I believe its left out so far, because there isnt yet a means to prevent dorfs from getting drunk.
will drinking increase the chance of misinterpretation?
Post by: Vattic on October 13, 2015, 09:18:59 am
Does the new init option give you the flexibility for different siege pop caps for different hostile races? I find goblins come too late, but zombies often turn up way too early (which, yes, is jolly good Fun, but would be nice to slow them down a bit on occasion).I suspect the latter based on previous FotF replies.
Edit: Oh wait, did you mean population caps before sieges start, or actual caps on number of sieging baddies?
Quote from: Daniel the FinlanderWhy are goblin sieges so small? The largest one I've seen had 30 goblins. In the previous version the sieges were much larger, and armies in world gen seem to consist of hundreds or even thousands of soldiers.
The pathing problem that's been handled for next time will have them appear more often. -snip- The sizes of the armies sent to player fortresses are still governed by some ramp-up code for gamey reasons (so they never reach w.g. sizes -- which is also a cpu thing), and they are now also capped by who's actually available, so a few things could keep the sizes down. Then again, I'm not really sure what the final caps should be at this point. Maybe they are a bit low.
In relation to above:
Quote from: VatticHow much, if any, control do you plan to give the player over caps like [army invader numbers]? I only ask because we have editable pop caps and the like so players can adjust depending on how good a PC they have and how few FPS they can handle.
There are lots of numbers that could afford to come out at this point. Not really sure when it'd happen.
Post by: Button on October 13, 2015, 10:37:31 am
Pretty sure no one can get drunk yet. Though you could make them get drunk with the raws by adding a syndrome for drunkiness. I believe its left out so far, because there isnt yet a means to prevent dorfs from getting drunk.
Actually, Toady has already implemented drunkenness as a syndrome for this next release, including alcohol poisoning if you get too much of it.
He also expanded syndromes in general quite a bit to support this. I'm very much looking forward to what the modders will do with the new syndrome structure.
Post by: MrWiggles on October 13, 2015, 01:36:30 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on October 13, 2015, 03:03:29 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on October 13, 2015, 04:35:28 pm
Historical figures can receive wounds in worldgen they can't get anywhere else (ex. missing eyes). Are there any plans to make this possible post-gen?
The answer to question like these is always yes.
Post by: Mr S on October 13, 2015, 04:59:13 pm
Post by: Dirst on October 13, 2015, 05:22:52 pm
Are you sure those can't be had in Fortress Mode? As to the eye loss example listed, it could happen in Fort (see: FB Dusts, Dwarven Childcare, et al), but I've not seen it myself due to combat in Fort mode. Tends to be that when one is shot in the eye, death follows pretty rapidly. But are there outlier cases where they could be seen in Fort mode? Maybe. Needs more !!SCIENCE!!If some bow shots can not-quite penetrate a cloak, it stands to reason that one might not-quite penetrate an eyeball.
Post by: Urist McVoyager on October 13, 2015, 08:53:31 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on October 14, 2015, 06:43:21 pm
Are you sure those can't be had in Fortress Mode? As to the eye loss example listed, it could happen in Fort (see: FB Dusts, Dwarven Childcare, et al), but I've not seen it myself due to combat in Fort mode. Tends to be that when one is shot in the eye, death follows pretty rapidly. But are there outlier cases where they could be seen in Fort mode? Maybe. Needs more !!SCIENCE!!There's a difference between getting a damaged eye and completely losing it, as in grey/missing.
Post by: Align on October 15, 2015, 11:31:34 am
Now that books are copied and spread, will they still be referred to as single physical things? Or will it be something more abstract that holds for all copies of a book, regardless of materials etc.
Post by: Dirst on October 15, 2015, 12:45:39 pm
Necromancers in the current version will write books about other books, but it gets weird when it says something like "It concerns the two-humped camel leather bound book The Arrogance of Hills", so...Although it's rare, the game is perfectly capable of generating distinct books with the same title in the same world. Calling it "'The Arrogance of Hills' by Urist McWordy" might work.
Now that books are copied and spread, will they still be referred to as single physical things? Or will it be something more abstract that holds for all copies of a book, regardless of materials etc.
Post by: LordBaal on October 15, 2015, 03:34:51 pm
Post by: thedrelle on October 16, 2015, 11:51:20 am
A Necromancer goes out into the world looking for a book of power and finally finds it after years of searching. he then goes out, finds a secluded place to read it, maybe spending untold years hunting for just the right ambiance in old ruins and finally, finally, it all comes together, his spells are ready, his staff is charged, his amulet of warding is primed...
he cracks open the book only to find it's a book of elven poetry by the same name.
Post by: Kitsune on October 16, 2015, 05:20:27 pm
I don't know, There's something humerous about this idea:
A Necromancer goes out into the world looking for a book of power and finally finds it after years of searching. he then goes out, finds a secluded place to read it, maybe spending untold years hunting for just the right ambiance in old ruins and finally, finally, it all comes together, his spells are ready, his staff is charged, his amulet of warding is primed...
he cracks open the book only to find it's a book of elven poetry by the same name.
Elven poetry is a powerful ward against dwarves.
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 16, 2015, 11:31:44 pm
Elven poetry is a powerful ward against dwarves.
And a powerful dragon attractant.
Post by: Neonivek on October 17, 2015, 04:37:56 am
With music though if they don't actually have a name for a particular piece they just give it a number and usually what KIND of music it was (like if it was a solo). "George Mustache's Symphony #24"
With books though... What is the exact method for naming untitled books?
I know with fiction TYPICALLY you make the title the main characters.
Post by: crazyabe on October 17, 2015, 11:35:20 am
That is quite a problem
Post by: Kitsune on October 17, 2015, 02:08:31 pm
So a fiction book by Elves with 328 main characters who are trees, and 199 who are Elves...
That is quite a problem
Problem is a understatement! How am I gonna ship all these trees together?
Post by: crazyabe on October 17, 2015, 02:11:31 pm
As small pieces back to the Mountain Home of course!So a fiction book by Elves with 328 main characters who are trees, and 199 who are Elves...
That is quite a problem
Problem is a understatement! How am I gonna ship all these trees together?
Post by: exdeath on October 17, 2015, 05:34:05 pm
Wich one came first on dwarf fortress:
The color R: 128 G:128 B:0, or the fact that df needed a color brown (what the first one I said, is named on df)?
Post by: Sizik on October 17, 2015, 05:43:08 pm
A question:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_palettes#Microsoft_Windows_default_16-color_palette
Wich one came first on dwarf fortress:
The color R: 128 G:128 B:0, or the fact that df needed a color brown (what the first one I said, is named on df)?
Post by: exdeath on October 17, 2015, 06:23:27 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 18, 2015, 10:47:18 am
Post by: Rose on October 18, 2015, 10:49:41 am
I have a need to make my dwarves produce TPS reports.
Post by: Mr S on October 18, 2015, 01:16:06 pm
Post by: Sizik on October 20, 2015, 09:26:37 am
Post by: Dirst on October 20, 2015, 09:38:21 am
Would you ever consider livestreaming DF development (e.g. on Twitch)?More regular communications would be great (weekly podcast-ish thing rather than big DF Talks), but watching someone debugging code is not my idea of fun. And being watched while debugging code sounds like even less fun.
Post by: cochramd on October 20, 2015, 09:55:53 am
My observations seem to agree with this; nevertheless, this is one black box I personally wish Toady would let us all look inside.Taming already trained infants contributes very little to the training level of a species. Perhaps if training levels did anything this wouldn't be so trivial.Training levels help your animal trainers train creatures to higher levels. Even a legendary animal trainer can only get an animal to about superior if your civ hasn't encountered that animal before.
Furthermore, will having one fortress's training levels spread to the entire civilization as well as being able to fully domesticate a species in fortress mode ever be implemented?
Post by: Knight Otu on October 20, 2015, 03:04:43 pm
Furthermore, will having one fortress's training levels spread to the entire civilization as well as being able to fully domesticate a species in fortress mode ever be implemented?Fortress training should spread slowly as your civs' caravans leave you already, you just can't reach domesticated level yet because there were some technical complications regarding domesticated breeds and some other things.
Quote from: NikitaWith all this talk of knowledge-sharing, are there any plans to make civilization-wide domestication of animal species possible? So you can e.g. domesticate a Roc or a Dragon in one fortress, and have it available at embark the next time?It was the eventual idea to get to that final step, yeah. There are various associated difficulties with that, code-wise, so it wasn't an immediate thing.
Post by: Inarius on October 21, 2015, 02:07:26 am
Quote
More regular communications would be great (weekly podcast-ish thing rather than big DF Talks), but watching someone debugging code is not my idea of fun. And being watched while debugging code sounds like even less fun.
Twitter already exists for this kind of communication. And if you read it, you would have seen that he writes much more in it than he used to.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 21, 2015, 07:10:19 am
Post by: Dirst on October 21, 2015, 08:14:44 am
Post by: GoblinCookie on October 21, 2015, 08:44:05 am
I think if Toady communicates any more than he already does, he won't have enough time to actually update the game. Occasional forum discipline, Dftalk once per major update, interviews a few times a year, monthly Future of Fortress report, monthly financial report and post on Patreon, weekly development update, daily (almost) Twitter including replies to questions. I gather he answers email too on occasion. How much more communication do you need?
That is my thought on the matter too.
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 21, 2015, 09:50:57 am
Not accessible for editing by anyone of course, but simply so curious source divers can get a better look at how upcoming features will work.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 21, 2015, 04:39:11 pm
Could work, but the current way he gives feedback is alight too. What would be more interesting is if the code itself was visible in-between updates.Is that something other closed source games developers do?
Not accessible for editing by anyone of course, but simply so curious source divers can get a better look at how upcoming features will work.
Post by: reality.auditor on October 21, 2015, 04:48:08 pm
No. It is kinda entire point of "closed" in "closed source".Could work, but the current way he gives feedback is alight too. What would be more interesting is if the code itself was visible in-between updates.Is that something other closed source games developers do?
Not accessible for editing by anyone of course, but simply so curious source divers can get a better look at how upcoming features will work.
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 22, 2015, 11:49:41 am
Post by: LordBaal on October 22, 2015, 01:19:52 pm
Quote from: Toady
"I also added a numbered tag to reactions so that they won't use up entire bone stacks making multiple products if you don't want them to (the dwarves were making giant piles of bone plectrums out of a single yak skeleton all at once). I don't remember if this was already possible in some way, but there's a new tag anyway."
Post by: cochramd on October 22, 2015, 01:26:12 pm
So are you going to keep talking about he not communicating enough or are we gonna get around the fact he already comunicated by updating the log again and gave us among some clean ups this little jewel:Quote from: Toady"I also added a numbered tag to reactions so that they won't use up entire bone stacks making multiple products if you don't want them to (the dwarves were making giant piles of bone plectrums out of a single yak skeleton all at once). I don't remember if this was already possible in some way, but there's a new tag anyway."
Wait, why would you not want them to do that if it means you produce more crafts in less time?
Post by: LordBaal on October 22, 2015, 02:20:32 pm
Post by: Toady One on October 22, 2015, 03:05:39 pm
Post by: LordBaal on October 22, 2015, 04:03:10 pm
Post by: Button on October 22, 2015, 05:48:17 pm
Wait, why would you not want them to do that if it means you produce more crafts in less time?
This is a huge deal when you're making something that needs to go into a container, because if you get too big a stack of items, you'll have too many "units" of liquid/powder and they won't be put into the container - and so they spill on the floor and can't be used. I ran into this a lot when I was trying to make reactions to consolidate booze into fewer barrels.
Does this number tag indicate the exact number of units to be used per reaction, the max number of units to be used per reaction, the max number of products per reaction, or the exact number of products per reaction?
How will this new tag interact with multiple-reagent reactions?
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 23, 2015, 02:18:01 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on October 23, 2015, 05:46:13 pm
I'm still gonna be leery of more bone edits. It tends top royally screw with adventure mode crafting. Right now it's a choice between consume a whole stack of bones, or require two separate stacks but only take 1 from each. >.>? Right now bone crafting works correctly in adventure mode, at least in my mod. It's cloth/thread crafts that have problems.
Post by: syyrah on October 24, 2015, 06:55:15 am
I have been hearing something about myth generator, and just wondering if there have been a change of plans.
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 24, 2015, 01:37:14 pm
I'm still gonna be leery of more bone edits. It tends top royally screw with adventure mode crafting. Right now it's a choice between consume a whole stack of bones, or require two separate stacks but only take 1 from each. >.>? Right now bone crafting works correctly in adventure mode, at least in my mod. It's cloth/thread crafts that have problems.
Unless they fixed that...I could've sworn bone stacks still interacted oddly with adventure mode reactions.
Then again I also have the perpetual issue of skulls refusing to be usable no matter what I do, which others have figured out how to work around. >.<
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 24, 2015, 08:49:53 pm
Woohoo!
edit: Just as clueless as Edmus below me...
I know lots of people have lots of opinions on the matter, but what do you see as the main potential of a 64 bit Dwarf Fortress?
Post by: Edmus on October 24, 2015, 09:17:37 pm
Asking on behalf of all three clueless people. :P
Post by: lethosor on October 24, 2015, 09:29:39 pm
The main benefit people see in a 64-bit build is the ability to address (i.e. use) more memory - 32-bit code uses 32 bits to refer to memory locations, which allows it to use up to 4 GB of memory (which Windows further restricts to 2 GB by default, which can be reached with large enough worlds/maps), while 64-bit code uses 64 bit pointers and can use up to 16 exabytes of memory (17179869184 GB if I did the math correctly).
Post by: LordBaal on October 24, 2015, 11:26:57 pm
In simple terms: You have a car, and there's only a single gas station in the world, you can only go within the range your gas tank allow it from the gas station. This would be something like virtually making the fuel tank infinite. Sure, you still take the same time to get anywhere, but now you can literally go anywhere.
Post by: Eric Blank on October 24, 2015, 11:32:09 pm
Will bookcases be used for anything outside of designated libraries? How will they behave in adventure mode? If they're unwalkable tiles we won't be able to stand on them to access books, so we'd need to use the command for interacting with a building, right? Will we be able to both place and remove from them? Will it be restricted exclusively to books?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 25, 2015, 12:10:05 am
Speed wont improve all that much, but thing the game can track at the same time would, so in theory that could lead to bigger maps, more population and a lot of other things.Except that, just like the car, right now DF gets heavier and slower the more stuff is running around. So, if there's no speed improvement the result is not being able to do any more than is currently possible (besides super large world generation). However, Toady has obviously put some effort into making DF 64-bit eventually so I'm wondering what he's thinking it'll be used for. Is it just big worlds? Is it prep for the planned multiple planes of reality? There's plenty of theoretic possibilites.
In simple terms: You have a car, and there's only a single gas station in the world, you can go from a to b with a single tank of fuel but you can't go further. This would be something like virtually making the fuel tank infinite. Sure, you still take the same time to get anywhere, but now you can literally go anywhere.
Post by: King Mir on October 25, 2015, 12:26:17 am
Post by: Rose on October 25, 2015, 12:32:09 am
Post by: LordBaal on October 25, 2015, 08:30:53 am
Now what we need are quantum processors to really speed up the game :p
Post by: Putnam on October 25, 2015, 02:31:14 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on October 26, 2015, 04:46:22 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 26, 2015, 04:50:59 am
Post by: Dirst on October 26, 2015, 08:08:05 am
Will it be restricted exclusively to books?Soon enough we'll have dwarf children stuffing smaller dwarf children into lockers.
Post by: cochramd on October 26, 2015, 08:15:59 am
I think you mean "coffers".Will it be restricted exclusively to books?Soon enough we'll have dwarf children stuffing smaller dwarf children into lockers.
Post by: Pidgeot on October 26, 2015, 03:46:02 pm
Have you decided how you will distribute the 64-bit builds (once they're ready)? Will it be a single ZIP per OS, containing both 32 and 64-bit executables, or one ZIP for OS/bitness combination?
Post by: FearfulJesuit on October 27, 2015, 05:36:37 am
Post by: LordBaal on October 27, 2015, 07:22:44 am
In the hope that I can do a bit of early prep work for PyLNP:
Have you decided how you will distribute the 64-bit builds (once they're ready)? Will it be a single ZIP per OS, containing both 32 and 64-bit executables, or one ZIP for OS/bitness combination?
I'm guessing it would be two separate zips. That would help ease confusion among most players, and it's pretty much the "standard" on how software is handed out when it has a 32 and 64 bits versions.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 27, 2015, 07:57:52 am
I haven't seen any updates about gambling and dwarf in taverns, and they're still listed as "future goals" on the dev outline page. Are they still going in this release?The original plan was for the taverns release to be split into two parts, with gambling and tavern games in the second release. Toady hasn't said that this isn't the case any more, but he has made some vague comments about gambling needing the economy and, maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a kind of excited can't-wait-to-dig-deep-into-this vibe around the myth generator so we'll have to wait and see whether part two follows part one or if it all gets mixed up. Either way, they don't seem to be part of the upcoming release.
Post by: Dirst on October 27, 2015, 08:13:39 am
Maybe it would work better is we phrased it as "There is a myth that gambling will be in the next release..." ;)I haven't seen any updates about gambling and dwarf in taverns, and they're still listed as "future goals" on the dev outline page. Are they still going in this release?The original plan was for the taverns release to be split into two parts, with gambling and tavern games in the second release. Toady hasn't said that this isn't the case any more, but he has made some vague comments about gambling needing the economy and, maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a kind of excited can't-wait-to-dig-deep-into-this vibe around the myth generator so we'll have to wait and see whether part two follows part one or if it all gets mixed up. Either way, they don't seem to be part of the upcoming release.
Post by: Putnam on October 27, 2015, 01:48:44 pm
I haven't seen any updates about gambling and dwarf games in taverns, and they're still listed as "future goals" on the dev outline page. Are they still going in this release?
they never were AFAIK, they were always the release after this
Post by: reality.auditor on October 27, 2015, 02:39:24 pm
so how big could embarks get? The players on supercomputers could actually do something to scale now?Nope, supercomputers rely on many processors working in parallel. Since DF is one-threaded, it wouldn't preform better than on your home computer.
Post by: malvado on October 27, 2015, 04:23:55 pm
1 : I've found DF to be an awesome game and I really love to see what other players are able to do as well , but as the time goes by I'd love to be able to add other players fortress to the world I'm currently playing or perhaps have some option that they can be added to a new world that you create.
Has Toady ever thought about implementing some sort of function so that some of your fortresses can be saved and used in new worlds you create? Likewise an Import function where you could add several fortresses to a new map ( or if it was possible to an existing map somehow ) you create or get from other players?
I could perfectly live with restrictions to what was imported (such as only the fortress empty of dwarves and anything they have made ).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 27, 2015, 05:07:27 pm
Been looking through the forums and can't say I've found any good answer to a question I have, so here it goes :So, assuming the same geographic conditions, your world could be host to an exact replica of Doomforests which Dwarf families could visit at weekends? Hmm.
1 : I've found DF to be an awesome game and I really love to see what other players are able to do as well , but as the time goes by I'd love to be able to add other players fortress to the world I'm currently playing or perhaps have some option that they can be added to a new world that you create.
Has Toady ever thought about implementing some sort of function so that some of your fortresses can be saved and used in new worlds you create? Likewise an Import function where you could add several fortresses to a new map ( or if it was possible to an existing map somehow ) you create or get from other players?
I could perfectly live with restrictions to what was imported (such as only the fortress empty of dwarves and anything they have made ).
Can't this be done with DFhack at the moment, export a map, import into quickfort, or something?
Post by: Mr S on October 27, 2015, 05:11:25 pm
As to Toady's intent, something like this hasn't been discussed in any Word of Toad I'm aware of. Ergo, this question may be better suited to the suggestions threads.
Bottom line, in the current, or near future, state of play, if you'd like to roam around other players' current, failed or retired fortresses, I'd suggest getting involved in one of the delightful succession games dancing about the forums. It's FUN!!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 27, 2015, 05:15:17 pm
Post by: burned on October 27, 2015, 05:35:16 pm
Are there any changes to the tileset in the new version, or can we just plug in our favourite (basic tileset) from day one?
Updates in the past have introduced new uses for existing characters in the default character tileset (e.g. minecarts, stepladders, trees and their roots, etc), but there is no precedent for the default character tileset to ever change. You should be able to switch to the character tileset of your choice immediately in the init.txt.
The only case where that may become an issue is when a custom character tileset was using a formerly unused character for something that is now being used for something new. That would be on you or the creator of the character tileset in question to correct.
Even creature tilesets work immediately barring sets that rely on raw changes. Creatures/professions are sometimes added (e.g. the upcoming tavern and performance jobs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144246.msg6259674#msg6259674)), change (e.g. the skeleton and zombie tokens changed to the animated token in 34.01) or removed entirely (e.g. arsenal dwarf, dungeon master, philosopher, etc).
The elements that are present in the creature tileset that are not present in the new update and vice versa are ignored gracefully and the the creature tilesets only need to be updated if you want to take advantage of the new things.
Been looking through the forums and can't say I've found any good answer to a question I have, so here it goes :
1 : I've found DF to be an awesome game and I really love to see what other players are able to do as well , but as the time goes by I'd love to be able to add other players fortress to the world I'm currently playing or perhaps have some option that they can be added to a new world that you create.
Has Toady ever thought about implementing some sort of function so that some of your fortresses can be saved and used in new worlds you create? Likewise an Import function where you could add several fortresses to a new map ( or if it was possible to an existing map somehow ) you create or get from other players?
I could perfectly live with restrictions to what was imported (such as only the fortress empty of dwarves and anything they have made ).
Threetoe: I know that you don't have plans for a multiplayer option any time soon, do you at least have plans for shared worlds with trade between players?
Toady: So, we've seen these ideas and things like this in the suggestion board and so on, so that you might be able to export a file that has a trade caravan that you sent off the side of the map or an army that you've marched off the side of your map and then you save it in the file that might be, you know, lightly encrypted in some way and you could send it off to your friend. And then your friend could load it in their fort - it might not even know if it would be an army or a trade caravan or something and then they get that marching on the map. You could kinda send those back and forth. It's a fun idea, it's not really a high priority idea and then there's difficulties with the raws. You'd have to make sure they had the same kind of raw files that you do exactly or the whole thing would break down. And even things like world history and so on can get in the way if you're not in the same world then references that you send off the map on like the artwork on an item for instance up would no longer be legal so there'd be all kinds of little bugs and things to work out and all kinds of the particulars to iron out. So it just hasn't been a high priority... I think it's a cool idea to have but it's not something that's gonna happen anytime soon. (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_21_transcript.html)
Post by: JesterHell696 on October 27, 2015, 10:03:24 pm
1. I've noticed that in 40.24 all my retired adventurers are asexual, do we get to choose our adventurers sexuality?
2. Does the ability to choose your adventures personality open the possibility to choose your adventurers preferences or deity and worship level in the near future?
3. What skills have been added to adventure mode character creation and adventure mode in general?
4. With the addition of writing things in adventure mode what if any "support" crafting is available, for instance can the player make parchment to write on or is writing "paper" only available from world gen sources?
5.You mentioned writing a (bad) essay, does this mean that there are negative quality levels for music, dancing and writing or just that it was bad by comparison? if there are negative quality level what are they called?
6. You mentioned player character having feelings in adventure mode what sort of feelings can an adventurer experience and what event or action can effect an adventurers feelings?
Post by: MrWiggles on October 27, 2015, 11:02:08 pm
How have you notice this? To my understanding retired Adventures are nearly inert things once they've retired and very nearly stop doing things in the world on their own, and stay where they're retired. ToadyOne has talked about starting families, and then playing as your progeny. So eventually paramours going to be a thing for PCs in adventure mode.
1. I've noticed that in 40.24 all my retired adventurers are asexual, do we get to choose our adventurers sexuality?
Quote
2. Does the ability to choose your adventures personality open the possibility to choose your adventurers preferences or deity and worship level in the near future?Thats been talked about to in the Dwarf Talks. And maybe? There been talks about just playing a selection of folks that exist in the world previously, and over making character exist out of whole cloth.
Quote
4. With the addition of writing things in adventure mode what if any "support" crafting is available, for instance can the player make parchment to write on or is writing "paper" only available from world gen sources?Like with almost all questions like this, the answer is. Eventually. The paper has to come from some sorta economic chain, and the overall goal is to have player be part of any of those arbitrary points in the economic chain. So you could probably make paper and vellum eventually.
Quote
5.You mentioned writing a (bad) essay, does this mean that there are negative quality levels for music, dancing and writing or just that it was bad by comparison? if there are negative quality level what are they called?Yes. You start out as low in the associated skills and ability to perform those acts, you preform badly.
Quote
6. You mentioned player character having feelings in adventure mode what sort of feelings can an adventurer experience and what event or action can effect an adventurers feelings?This has been talked about before in in Dorf Talks podcast. And mostly this is is an issue of the computer understanding your intent, and player agency and their ability to role play out how they're playing their character. And computers suck at reading intent. It doesn't really have a means to gracefully learn how you should feel about being stuck in the cold, or slaying members of your own kind or thieves.
Post by: Putnam on October 27, 2015, 11:04:15 pm
How have you notice this? To my understanding retired Adventures are nearly inert things once they've retired and very nearly stop doing things in the world on their own, and stay where they're retired. ToadyOne has talked about starting families, and then playing as your progeny. So eventually paramours going to be a thing for PCs in adventure mode.
1. I've noticed that in 40.24 all my retired adventurers are asexual, do we get to choose our adventurers sexuality?
DFHack; unfortunately, the script I wrote doesn't really distinguish between "asexual" and "adventurer", which seems to be its own state (the first flag in the orientation flags is set to true for adventurers and adventurers only; none of the other flags are set).
I'd say that adventurers aren't so much asexual as indeterminate; they are controlled by you, after all. Maybe when adventure romance comes in their orientation will be determined by either your choice or your actions.
Post by: JesterHell696 on October 28, 2015, 03:52:46 am
How have you notice this? To my understanding retired Adventures are nearly inert things once they've retired and very nearly stop doing things in the world on their own, and stay where they're retired. ToadyOne has talked about starting families, and then playing as your progeny. So eventually paramours going to be a thing for PCs in adventure mode.
I had a short genned world (45 years) and retired 20 Demi-god adventurers to receive as migrants and they've all shown up as asexual in dwarf therapist and DFhack so I figured that the adventurers sexuality was left blank by default resulting in only asexual adventures and given that he's allowing us to choose personality facets I was wondering if sexual orientation counted or not.
Thats been talked about to in the Dwarf Talks. And maybe? There been talks about just playing a selection of folks that exist in the world previously, and over making character exist out of whole cloth.
Almost everything has been talked about at one point or another like I know he's talked about playing as historical figures before, my question was about the near future because Toady said we could choose our personality facets now and this is sort of an expansion of that.
Like with almost all questions like this, the answer is. Eventually. The paper has to come from some sorta economic chain, and the overall goal is to have player be part of any of those arbitrary points in the economic chain. So you could probably make paper and vellum eventually.
I was not asking about the whole chain of production but simple parchment which is made from animal hide (this is why paper was in quotation marks) which we can "half" make now with butchering, I was basically wondering if I could write the story of my defeated foes on their own flayed skin.
Yes. You start out as low in the associated skills and ability to perform those acts, you preform badly.
So what are the negative quality levels for these actions called? shoddy? poor? horrible? and where do they fit in comparison to the preexisting quality levels, shoddy>normal>well-crafted ect.
This has been talked about before in in Dorf Talks podcast. And mostly this is is an issue of the computer understanding your intent, and player agency and their ability to role play out how they're playing their character. And computers suck at reading intent. It doesn't really have a means to gracefully learn how you should feel about being stuck in the cold, or slaying members of your own kind or thieves.
I just found out about bay12 twitter and this post caught my attention
Quote
Bay 12 Games @Bay12Games Sep 24
You can finally figure out why your adventurer is crying with the "Express your emotions" option.
So what can my adventurer feel and what will make him feel it?
Post by: JesterHell696 on October 28, 2015, 04:03:12 am
DFHack; unfortunately, the script I wrote doesn't really distinguish between "asexual" and "adventurer", which seems to be its own state (the first flag in the orientation flags is set to true for adventurers and adventurers only; none of the other flags are set).
I'd say that adventurers aren't so much asexual as indeterminate; they are controlled by you, after all. Maybe when adventure romance comes in their orientation will be determined by either your choice or your actions.
I figured that the game just left them blank by default which would make them asexual by default right?
Edit: I probably should have edited this onto my last post, my bad.
Post by: Pidgeot on October 28, 2015, 05:26:39 am
In the hope that I can do a bit of early prep work for PyLNP:
Have you decided how you will distribute the 64-bit builds (once they're ready)? Will it be a single ZIP per OS, containing both 32 and 64-bit executables, or one ZIP for OS/bitness combination?
I'm guessing it would be two separate zips. That would help ease confusion among most players, and it's pretty much the "standard" on how software is handed out when it has a 32 and 64 bits versions.
That's my guess too (that's how I handle PyLNP on Linux, after all), but the alternative is not unheard of, especially with games.
Of course, mostgames have assets which are many times larger than the binaries...
Post by: MrWiggles on October 28, 2015, 05:27:51 am
Well, as with the last several cycles, the focus of the next release cycled changed. Right now, its suppose to still be focusing on Taverns, which may lead to getting the economy to interact with fort mode. But who knows. Maybe we'll get the adventure mode starting packages, that's been talked about.Thats been talked about to in the Dwarf Talks. And maybe? There been talks about just playing a selection of folks that exist in the world previously, and over making character exist out of whole cloth.
Almost everything has been talked about at one point or another like I know he's talked about playing as historical figures before, my question was about the near future because Toady said we could choose our personality facets now and this is sort of an expansion of that.
Quote
No indication about paper in for adventure mode, and paper is abstracted (for now) in Fort mode. So no reason to believe that paper has been changed.Like with almost all questions like this, the answer is. Eventually. The paper has to come from some sorta economic chain, and the overall goal is to have player be part of any of those arbitrary points in the economic chain. So you could probably make paper and vellum eventually.
I was not asking about the whole chain of production but simple parchment which is made from animal hide (this is why paper was in quotation marks) which we can "half" make now with butchering, I was basically wondering if I could write the story of my defeated foes on their own flayed skin.
Quote
Oh that. The emotional engine that drives all the creatures isn't turned off when you're controlling an adventure. Its just been obscured, but its possible now to gleam what you're character if feeling. They have the same range of emotions as any other creature with the same cause and effect for them. But due to the typical action players take, your character is generally sobbing.This has been talked about before in in Dorf Talks podcast. And mostly this is is an issue of the computer understanding your intent, and player agency and their ability to role play out how they're playing their character. And computers suck at reading intent. It doesn't really have a means to gracefully learn how you should feel about being stuck in the cold, or slaying members of your own kind or thieves.
I just found out about bay12 twitter and this post caught my attentionQuoteBay 12 Games @Bay12Games Sep 24
You can finally figure out why your adventurer is crying with the "Express your emotions" option.
So what can my adventurer feel and what will make him feel it?
Quote
Where? Personalty facets have been brought up twice in the logs, and I checked the twitter until they announced the release of the Paetron.Thats been talked about to in the Dwarf Talks. And maybe? There been talks about just playing a selection of folks that exist in the world previously, and over making character exist out of whole cloth.
Almost everything has been talked about at one point or another like I know he's talked about playing as historical figures before, my question was about the near future because Toady said we could choose our personality facets now and this is sort of an expansion of that.
Post by: JesterHell696 on October 28, 2015, 08:24:35 am
Well, as with the last several cycles, the focus of the next release cycled changed. Right now, its suppose to still be focusing on Taverns, which may lead to getting the economy to interact with fort mode. But who knows. Maybe we'll get the adventure mode starting packages, that's been talked about.
This is basically why I asked, its a sort of "is this in and not mentioned or is it on the table for for addition after this release during bug fixing" kind of deal, there's just noway of really knowing where DF's development will head next if you don't ask.
No indication about paper in for adventure mode, and paper is abstracted (for now) in Fort mode. So no reason to believe that paper has been changed.
Well Toady did post about writing a (bad) essay about his character leaving his home town for adventure and leaving it in the library on 10/17/15 so with writing in adventure mode I figured I'd ask about whether my only option for writing supplies would be from world gen library's or if I could make parchment from my enemies skin, ink from their blood and a quill from their bones... I didn't like my chances but I hadn't read anything about it either so thought I'd ask.
Oh that. The emotional engine that drives all the creatures isn't turned off when you're controlling an adventure. Its just been obscured, but its possible now to gleam what you're character if feeling. They have the same range of emotions as any other creature with the same cause and effect for them. But due to the typical action players take, your character is generally sobbing.
Yeah I get that about adventure modes handling of the previous emotion system but he's also said something about how he's change the emotions effects to include bonus's for dwarves that are happy or "well taken care of" in fortress mode and if that effects adventure mode what things does it work off of?
I'll see if I can find a quote.
Edit:
Quote from: ManzeenanWill better musicians/instrument quality reduce breaks or "needs"?
The quality can make people happier, certainly, but I'm not sure they should impact overall length of free time a dwarf wants. There's a positive aspect to needs now that improves skill rolls and so on, so even if the time spent is the same, there's still a benefit to doing a proper job.
Where? Personalty facets have been brought up twice in the logs, and I checked the twitter until they announced the release of the Paetron.
Are you asking where did he say you can choose personality? because if so it here.
Quote from: JesterHell696Toady I remember you saying something about the player affecting adventure mode personality's, can you choose both personality facets and beliefs and does it work like attribute distributions with points that you spend to increase or lower your value or do you just select a value you want?
Edit:with the addition of bards and traveling musicians will there be followers who's motivation is not death and glory?
You can either randomize your personality and values according to your creature type and culture (just tapping 'r' until you get a paragraph/needs you like), or you can go in and set your values/personality facet by facet manually (in a gigantic slider list). Your personality in the latter case is still restricted by creature type (so you can't make a very altruistic goblin), but you can set as many values outside of your culture as you want (instead of the standard 3 or so). It isn't based on a point system, since one personality isn't supposed to be better than another (though there will always be min-maxy settings that you can use to make your character have fewer needs, etc.).
Yeah, you can have your performance troupe that just wants to perform, with no wanna-die checks at all.
So I figured if this is in now I should ask if we could see preferences/sexuality/deity worship level added as a player choice in the after release bug fixing releases (near future) because it not that far from what already in game for this release.
Actually reading this over he mentioned min-max setting in personality facets effecting needs at the bottom and that might be apart of the system I was talking about with character being happy getting bonus's and the adventurer expressing themselves.
Post by: LordBaal on October 28, 2015, 08:28:57 am
I was basically wondering if I could write the story of my defeated foes on their own flayed skin.(https://i.imgur.com/mBMXd57.jpg)
I know we all should be used to this kind of thing here.... but you upped the game somehow.
Mental note: never anger JesterHell696
Post by: Button on October 28, 2015, 09:34:42 am
Post by: Ribs on October 28, 2015, 09:23:45 pm
Quote
10/28/2015 Toady One: I finished handling the last personality needs in dwarf mode -- dwarves can swipe and own and wear trinkets again somewhat like they did before, for instance, with the avaricious and extravagant dwarves doing it more than others.
So, are monarchs going to be particularly interested in wearing crowns or other type of regal headwear, or you don't see dwarven nobility swinging that way?
Also, will we be able to equip our military with trinkets after this release?
Post by: JesterHell696 on October 28, 2015, 09:38:51 pm
I know we all should be used to this kind of thing here.... but you upped the game somehow.
Mental note: never anger JesterHell696
I'm just a bit curious about with the way dwarf fortress tracks things if I write was the story of how I killed somebody on their own flayed skin inked in their own blood with a quill made from their own bones and give their next of kin the parchment with that that story written on it whether it'd be possible for the next of kin to realize that their reading the story of their loved ones death on that loved one skin.
Its just some simple scientific curiosity, nothing more.
Post by: Putnam on October 28, 2015, 09:45:16 pm
Post by: Button on October 29, 2015, 10:47:56 am
they would recognize their loved one's skin regardless of what is written on it
Not necessarily. If you make a weapon out of a goblin bone it loses its association with the goblin the bone came from. Might work the same way with parchment.
Post by: LordBaal on October 29, 2015, 11:20:55 am
I just know, deep in my heart, we'll have tomes upon tomes of books that depict their own creation, starting with the murder of the beings from which the materials came from.I know we all should be used to this kind of thing here.... but you upped the game somehow.
Mental note: never anger JesterHell696
I'm just a bit curious about with the way dwarf fortress tracks things if I write was the story of how I killed somebody on their own flayed skin inked in their own blood with a quill made from their own bones and give their next of kin the parchment with that that story written on it whether it'd be possible for the next of kin to realize that their reading the story of their loved ones death on that loved one skin.
Its just some simple scientific curiosity, nothing more.
Post by: Dirst on October 29, 2015, 11:39:46 am
Although I think you're right, it would be more fun the other way.they would recognize their loved one's skin regardless of what is written on it
Not necessarily. If you make a weapon out of a goblin bone it loses its association with the goblin the bone came from. Might work the same way with parchment.
"I am a famous adventurer, and I have killed many ne'er-do-wells. Look, I've written a book about my adventurers."
"Brother? Murderer! *spit*"
Post by: falcc on October 29, 2015, 11:39:28 pm
Will adventurers have a need to bathe with this release, or is there still just an invisible counter for dirtiness somewhere? Speaking of which, since world gen civs can go through the complicated process needed to make paper, are they any closer to managing world gen soap?
and
With the new item modification changes will glazing something increase skill now, or is the new multi-material code entirely different from whatever causes that bug?
Post by: 4kn on October 30, 2015, 04:24:18 am
unfortunately fps death is one of the major issues for me. as i understand it will only get worse whith the development of the game.
do you manage performance (read:fps rate) of the game in some specific way or just go back to optimizing code when perfomance falls below an "acceptable" level?
is there any specific timeframe to transfer code to multithread?
credits for question concretization to Shonai_Dweller
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 30, 2015, 06:18:37 am
hi! i hope Toady will notice this question.Questions for Toady in Lime Green or his beady toad eyes can't see them or something.
unfortunately fps death is one of the major issues for me. as i understand it will only get worse whith the development of the game.
do you manage performance (read:fps rate) of the game in some specific way or just go back to optimizing code when perfomance falls below an "acceptable" level?
is there any plan to transfer code to multithread?
And "Is there a plan..." generally has the answer, "yes eventually if it's feasible, but nothing concrete right now (Unless it's on the front page blog)"
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 30, 2015, 05:39:54 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on October 30, 2015, 07:09:20 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on October 30, 2015, 08:38:51 pm
hi! i hope Toady will notice this question.Toady doesn't want to waste time on optimization when what's being optimized isn't final. Like there might be ways to optimize the temperature system then later he ends up almost completely redoing it, meaning his optimizations were a waste. So there's generally not much optimization as the game is just approximately 40.24% done.
unfortunately fps death is one of the major issues for me. as i understand it will only get worse whith the development of the game.
do you manage performance (read:fps rate) of the game in some specific way or just go back to optimizing code when perfomance falls below an "acceptable" level?
is there any specific timeframe to transfer code to multithread?
credits for question concretization to Shonai_Dweller
Post by: Toady One on October 31, 2015, 01:18:37 pm
Quote from: iceball3
Are people going to have further reservations against engaging in combat with upcoming emotional tweaks? As it is, if there is something that is considered a civ enemy, the dwarf civilians tend to opt for engaging it in combat if it is not threatening enough (say, a wild Dingo Man who got in a scuffle with one of the war dogs), or is the current behavior intended?
Will we be able to issue orders to dwarves, military or not, to avoid engaging certain units, or otherwise force/order them to provide quarter to their opponents?
I don't think the situation has changed. Dwarves'll jump into active combats to try to save people they like, but it isn't great in practice and I'm open to improving it. It would be best not to have to micromanage their behavior though, if possible.
Quote from: Urist McVoyager
How will visitors petitioning to become citizens interact with population caps? I assume the petitions themselves will work like Liaison visits where we get a new screen with the relevant information and a choice about the petitioner. Will we still get those petitions even if we've already hit our cap?
As it stands, I think visitors can always petition to join, and visitors can always go up the visitor cap. Anybody that actually becomes a resident counts against the pop cap, but you can go over if you accept a petition when you are at or above the pop cap (you just won't get immigrants after that). You can also say no to petitions, of course, so the pop cap remains under your control.
Quote from: Adrian
Will people petitioning the fortress be a mechanic designed for that single purpose, or will it be part of a framework allowing for different kinds of petitions?
ie. For the imprisonment of the valued upper class, the banishment of a troublemaker, making a certain deity the official fortress religion, a declaration of war, etc.
The petition system should work for any future relevant agreement when we get around to it. Right now there are residency and citizenship petitions, but yeah, anything similar that goes through official channels should ideally end up there as we go.
Quote from: Witty
Do dwarven children (and children in general, I presume) get any negative thoughts if there are no toys to play with? Also, how does a child determine which toys they can play with? Will they just take things they like from the stockpile? Wouldn't this cause some issues if you intend to trade those items?
Many stockpiled objects are subject to use already, so I'm not sure why this is any more of an issue. There's no unhappy thought at this point, though certainly we'll need to do something over time for toys to truly have a point. Right now they are content to make believe or do music/dance stuff.
Quote from: omega_dwarf
Do children gain social or physical skills from playing with toys? Or even combat skills, like dodging? Toys irl help babies develop their minds and coordination (iirc), so it would stand to reason that a new system of Dwarven Child Care(TM) could be coming about! (You know, to replace other...methods...involving zombies, small animals, and dull spikes, for instance....)
I haven't gotten into anything like that.
Quote from: Inarius
Will other races (for example goblins and humans) play too ?
Will we see children play in Adventure mode, too ?
If goblins and humans play too, what is the determinent of "being able to play". Can animal-people children play too ? Or any other intelligent race ?
Could a Dwarf children without arm play, too ? (And by that, I'm also asking about any other race who cannot manipulate with fingers)
Yeah, intelligent children of all sorts play, including adventure mode children (it gives an announcement when they start an activity or if you come upon it midstream, though there aren't generally toys around so stuff like make believe is more common). They need to be able to pick up a toy to play with toys at this point, but they can still play in other ways.
Quote from: Button
IIRC, the ability to define reaction menus in the raws is going in in this release. Are we going to be able to add any of them to hardcoded workshops, or only to those defined in the raws?
You can add custom reaction menus to any building that currently accepts a reaction. Many of those are hardcoded workshops/furnaces, but the usual ones are still unusable (jeweler, etc).
Quote from: Kitsune
Will the adventurer be able to serve drinks and food at a tavern?
Will there be singing (and not the story telling/poetry stuff)?
You can't currently take any of the new occupations.
In the generated musical forms, there are often singers and chanters (and speakers) of both poetry and nonsense sounds. There is a skill for singing (which also applies to chanting) and a skill for speaking.
Quote from: WordsandChaos
First: Are there any plans, however far in the future, for expanding relationship types? At the moment we have a number of positive relationship types, but only a single negative relationship type - Grudges. Do you plan to divide the negative relationship types up at some point in the future so that players can see why a Dwarf might dislike another? grudges at the moment see to cover everythign from mild disdain to murderous hatred. It'd be interesting, if feasible, to narrow that down into categories - envy, rivalry, obsessive, dislike, hate, etc. I'm really interested by the potential to elaborate on the stories that we are currently able to abstract from the interactions of our dwarves under the current relations system, by providing more varied sources of !!Drama!!
(after Putnam brings up adv mode reputation types)
I know that, it's more the mechanics aspect of it: we've got acquaintances, friend, family, lovers, spouse etc, which seems to cover neutral and positive. And then negative has 'grudge' which is assumedly everything under one heading, from mild disdain for someone you met once, to murderous hatred. I don't know the mechanics all that well, but different opinions/rationales create different actions/responses.
Second: Do you have any further plans for the catacombs and other underground areas? At the moment they're interesting to walk around, but they're mostly just filled with statues and are otherwise empty, negating any good reason to explore them.
Yeah, the dwarf mode relationship screen uses a much, much older system that could afford to have an injection of the new reputation code (they use a lot of the new code, but it doesn't get displayed in the relationship list, if I remember). So a dwarf can actually understand that somebody that gets in a fist-fight has violent tendencies, but that isn't reflected. They can also form specific feeling about people that have, e.g., killed their relatives. So partially it's a display problem, but at the same time, yeah, encoded states (the grudge in particular) need to be worked over into the new system.
The whole "treasure hunter" adventure role on the dev pages is about diving into underground areas and other such places and making that more challenging and rewarding. We just haven't gotten anywhere on that yet. At least the artifact release could lead to some real rewards as a first step.
Quote from: Camulus
Will there be provisions for myth creation within the world at a later stage? With creatures and gods created within the minds of the races that in fact do not exist. This may be an interesting addition to religion and legends mode in general.
The idea on the table now for the myth generator is to have slider(s) that go from "all myths are fake, no magic, no dwarves" to "no raw/objects creatures at all, weird magic" -- depending on how it all works, we can tease some of that apart so you can have a low-magic-low-religion world that is still dwarfy. It'll be molded as we go, but the broad strokes are reasonably straightforward (in terms of cutting/allowing content), and the myth generator doesn't care whether what it is generating is real or fictional in-game (it can produce weird ideas about the origin of the universe on the fly as needed). At the midpoint of all sliders, you'd have typical fantasy races with a myth generator that leads to a somewhat more global situation than we have now (where all pantheons are local), but where such a situation (with real, local gods) could still roughly happen, if that's how it really is. It's just harder to do sweeping religious cultural differentiation when there's a single clear unlost constantly-manifesting metaphysical truth about the universe that presumably acts as a corrective to pantheon-level schisms, though they can still differ on the smaller points and blow those up, or differ on interpretation depending on the manifestations and their own will to correct. Etc etc.
Quote from: forfor
will there ever be greater levels of interaction with deities? For instance having them come visit a fort to curse/bless stuff or seeking them out in adventure to kill them/seek some kind of blessing etc. would add an extra layer of FUN as you couldn't necessarily differentiate between these God visitors, and the traveling demons who like to impersonate them. You could also tailor the gods gift/curse to match their godly purview aka God of trade or God of war etc.
We haven't done much with it, but the upcoming artifact release is going to veer heavily into this territory. It's unclear exactly what we'll get though, since we won't get to most magical things on that pass.
Quote
Quote from: DarkwingUKI noticed in some recent posts that you said that you might wait on games until the economy comes in later on. Does that mean that you are considering reducing taverns part 2 to just recipes and moving more quickly to artifacts? Or are there more things that you plan to add in taverns part 2?Quote from: syyrahAre the recipes and procedural generation of games still in plans for the release after this one?Quote from: FearfulJesuitI haven't seen any updates about gambling and dwarf games in taverns, and they're still listed as "future goals" on the dev outline page. Are they still going in this release?
So, yeah, we had planned to break the tavern stuff up and get two reasonably short releases in. Then we did the normal thing and this release ended up not quite as short, and then we started feeling a little uncomfortable continuing on in the same vein for too long. And getting a bit over-excited about the myth stuff as we played around with the generator side project. Coupled with the gambling vs economy+justice problem, we are leaning toward the artifact release now after this. I still really like the random games and recipe ideas though. They may find side generators of their own lighting a fire under them before long.
Quote from: DarkwingUK
Also, I was wondering how you conceptualise the fog of war within fortress mode. I notice that there is the thing happening that the caverns are obscured until we start exploring them. But it seems that once tiles are revealed, that we can generally see monsters in those tiles whether or not they can be seen by an individual dwarf. Is it a design decision to let the player see creatures that dwarves can't see? Or is your idea that later, we will be limited to knowing what our dwarves know? Just curious!
It's a processor issue partially, though the dwarves are all doing more LOS stuff as of 0.40.01 I think. I'm not sure if I'd restrict your vision even if I could though -- the vision ranges it uses are short, and you should be able to see sieging armies march across a flat map at you from the edge if you have a lookout without that restriction. So there hasn't been much impetus to push forward on it, and we instead have used the invisible ambushers to hide important critters that want to be hidden, and the one-time hidden map to provide a sense of exploration below (which will matter more when there's more to find).
Quote from: Kitsune
Toady what are you going to do differentiate transformations that change a npc's soul/mind (like spouse conversation) and transformations that do not? Will willpower have any effect on the transformation of there mind/soul?
I'm not really sure -- spouse conversion isn't a proper interaction/syndrome effect yet, and I haven't considered how it would work technically. As we move into general magic effects, I imagine various "resistances" will be possible, whether by willpower or some other trait/item/etc., to maintain playability against wizards. I suspect there will also be times when magic-using creatures aren't meant to be contested though, he he he, so "class balance" won't drive everything. It's difficult to say what'll go in on this magic pass in the artifact release until later. We might not get to a spouse converter update, but other soul-level stuff might go in. We're leaving it all on the table until we cut down to a set of artifact and other powers we think will be the most entertaining for a single release.
Quote from: Gorobay
How do you pronounce “Cichi Cichi”, the name of the poisonous berry from Threetoe’s stories?
I think we might have said chee-chee chee-chee.
Quote from: darkflagrance
NOOOOO! Tell me at least that musically-inclined necromancers will at some point be able to command their skeletons/zombies to play instruments and conduct Bone Orchestras?
Who knows what we'll get to. There'll probably be music-based magic before people order animated critters to perform music/dance, but hard to say how it'll go or when.
Quote from: UristMcTruman
Will there be salt evaporation ponds in order to harvest and export salt? This could be cool for coastal fortresses -or towns- to be able to send their production in the inland regions.
With specific industries, it's hard to say when or what is going to happen, since I don't yet have a timeline for the way through that. The production side of the economy will see the existing industries become more active post-w.g. (there's already some w.g. stuff, though it's mostly invisible) before new ones are added most likely, and then we'll see how work areas develop etc. How new fort industries are added as we go is anybody's guess.
Quote from: falcc
How do the new performance areas understand Z-levels? Is there a risk if a statue garden is set up on a battlement that drunken Dwarves will be dancing off the edge all the time? Or knocking livestock over the edge. Will there be tumbling down hills?
and
You mentioned on twitter that invading armies don't really know why they're there right now, and so they can't be swayed by music, or really anything else to give up their murderous/thieving intentions. Once you have a different system in place (whenever that will be) do you intend to have invaders judging the situation at the fort as individuals or will they continue to have more of a generalized morale?
The dance floors they pick out for themselves are blocked out on activity initiation from within the zone they are in, so there shouldn't be anything too catastrophic.
There will probably always be some fudging going on with large armies of invaders -- they can't all have personal moments all the time, for the sake of the processor, and some sort of generalized morale is a fine thing for an army battle. We want them to be able to understand and change their intent though, so that something like a sudden diplomatic, dramatic or magical moment would even be possible. Right now nothing can get through the "army controller", and the army controller should really be more of a (possibly very strong) suggestion than a puppet string.
Quote from: Crandal
With the addition of potential animal-people to Fortress Mode, will we see adjustments and fixes to the old flight and swimming pathing issues that keep units from flying or swimming and get them stuck?
It's difficult/near-impossible to really fix some of the problems in a satisfying way, but we'll see what comes up. I haven't had a good deal of experience with modded flyer-dwarf civs and their bugs, and the new fort critters haven't caused me trouble so far, though I'm sure all of the same issues apply, so it'll rely on saves/reports etc. My go-to solution would simply be to mostly turn off their flying, though, depending on the bug. No general pathing expansion has panned out so far.
Quote from: GoblinCookie
At the moment foreign race soldiers working for a site are given equipment from the civilization they originally migrated from but according to the soldier classes of the civilization itself. Not only does this result in soldiers going to battle wearing foreign insignia on their armor but more seriously it results in soldiers lacking weapons if the civ they came from lack that weapon. With the ability to make armour and clothing for different race critters in fortress mode, will this situation be fixed; also will weapons/cloaks/backpacks/quivers/flasks also resize as well?
I haven't changed how equipment generation works, so any bugs there are likely to still be in the game, but they should use the equipment you make for them regardless of that. I haven't added sizing to anything that didn't had race-sizing to begin with (e.g. weapons, etc).
Quote from: isitanos
Reading about how performers can make mistakes made me wonder whether pupils (or fans that only saw the performance once or twice) can misinterpret their master's work, potentially creating all new forms of dance and poetry based on a mistake.
There's nothing like that. Morphing a form into a new form would require a specific push in that direction, which we didn't do, even for people being intentionally inspired rather than making mistakes. The new forms which are generated in-game by artists don't rely on other forms.
Quote from: Urist McVoyager
Will we see necromancers team up with vampires? Like, the vampire goes on break, drinks a dwarf dry, and then lets a necromancer friend raise the corpse as a zombie?
It sounds like a cheerful match. None of the untoward characters really have any interaction with each other (aside from the general ones everybody can do), which is a shame, since it would set up more interesting plots. We can only hope for the future. We have various notes about villainous lieutenants, plots and allegicances, but so far nothing has moved forward. A main part of the artifact release is to have the artifacts be useful, desired by those that could use or just covet them, and to have a plan put forward for the actors to obtain them from others (including forts) through their own actions or through their agents (including advs) -- this may provide angles for joint villainous action, as we plan to spend a bit of time with NPC agents to continue livening things up.
Quote from: Sizik
Would you ever consider livestreaming DF development (e.g. on Twitch)?
I haven't watched livestreamed development, so I don't know how to make it unboring. Everybody that has come by to film etc. here has had plans to showcase development, which they then scrap after a few minutes because it is so dull.
Quote from: cochramd
Will the exact mechanics of training levels ever be explicitly explained? I have observed that a creature's pet value is is inversely proportional to how many of them need to be trained in order to advance through the training levels. I have also observed that maintenance training, war or hunting training and training already trained infants into fully tame animals all contribute less to training levels than training a fully wild animal does; this has caused me to hypothesize that the contribution of any given training session to the training levels is directly proportional to the increase in an animal's training level caused by that session. I have also heard from another guy who trains a lot of animals that training levels do have an effect on in-fort training
Pet value... like the trading value? I don't see any of that in the code, but I might be missing something. Every tame animal job increases overall fort training points for that animal by 10, and the fort training knowledge levels are attained at 30, 100, 250 and 500 (it zeroes points when it increases level). War and hunting jobs are also worth 10 points, but a maintenance job is only worth 3. Looks like training infants is 10 too, though I could have missed some conditional on any of these. If your fort level is higher than the civ level for a given animal, 10 points of knowledge are transferred with each caravan that gets off the map (so it'd take 88 years worth of caravans to bring the civ all the way up to "expert" I guess, but just 3 years to get every subsequent fort to start at "few facts"). Sounds like the sort of thing that could be sped-up with all the new knowledge/books once we start linking in-game industries to it. There's also the unexplored matter of why your civ level would be lower than your fort level if your fort is the last one, as opposed to part of a large civilization, and why a trainer migrant coming from an old expert fort would lose knowledge.
The fort level of knowledge has a strong effect on in-fort training. If you know nothing about the animal, the animal training roll must be 30 to get past semi-wild and 100 to be masterfully trained (with 40/50/65/80 for the others). "Few facts": 20/30/40/60/70/90. "Familiar": 15/20/30/50/60/80. "Knowledgeable": 10/15/25/40/50/70. "Expert": 5/10/20/30/40/60. The calculations for skill rolls are complicated, but by these numbers, your trainers are almost twice as good at expert-level fort knowledge, if they weren't already great trainers in their own right (in which case they'll probably crack 100 most times without help).
Quote from: Button
Does this number tag indicate the exact number of units to be used per reaction, the max number of units to be used per reaction, the max number of products per reaction, or the exact number of products per reaction?
How will this new tag interact with multiple-reagent reactions?
It's the max number of times it generates a batch of products per reaction (so it is a reaction tag, not a product or reagent tag). Reagents are used up until the max is reached -- and this just applies to those kinds of reagents which led to multiple products to begin with (bone stacks, etc.). Many reactions involve bringing a simple non-stacked/non-divisible item over as at least one of the reagents, and those wouldn't be affected, since only one batch is possible.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I know lots of people have lots of opinions on the matter, but what do you see as the main potential of a 64 bit Dwarf Fortress?
People answered better than I could, but for me, the starting point is getting rid of the 2/3GB limit on memory, since it is hit more and more in-game these days.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Will bookcases be used for anything outside of designated libraries? How will they behave in adventure mode? If they're unwalkable tiles we won't be able to stand on them to access books, so we'd need to use the command for interacting with a building, right? Will we be able to both place and remove from them? Will it be restricted exclusively to books?
They are walkable for simplicity this time. We'll probably want them to be unwalkable at some point, since attaching bookcases to book-shaped levers and so on seems popular, but I just treated them like other storage furniture for now. They aren't used outside of libraries. Was there not an adventure mode command to put something in a chest/cabinet etc.? Seems like the kind of thing I wouldn't have done yet. Those all have the same fate, and I didn't change anything for this time. At the same time, a book doesn't need to be in the case to be recognized as being in the library -- it just needs to be in one of the library's zones.
Quote from: Pidgeot
Have you decided how you will distribute the 64-bit builds (once they're ready)? Will it be a single ZIP per OS, containing both 32 and 64-bit executables, or one ZIP for OS/bitness combination?
I'll probably have a bunch of separate zips, but the list is getting long the way it is formatted now. But that's the way I'm leaning. We'll also enter a sort of annoying save compat territory -- even if I manage compat between the bitnesses, 64-bit saves will often be too large for 32 bit DF to load. I imagine there could be "false" bug reports over this, but I'm not sure how to handle it without spending a zillion years coding calculations estimating memory sizes before load or something.
Quote from: malvado
Has Toady ever thought about implementing some sort of function so that some of your fortresses can be saved and used in new worlds you create? Likewise an Import function where you could add several fortresses to a new map ( or if it was possible to an existing map somehow ) you create or get from other players?
I could perfectly live with restrictions to what was imported (such as only the fortress empty of dwarves and anything they have made ).
burned had the big quote about the raws and historical information on items etc. being difficult to move between different worlds. So if something happened it'd most likely just be a simple map, perhaps with general info about things like door positions etc. The context that we've been thinking about this most lately is in terms of a general world/site/hf editor. That broader prospect also has large format/compat issues -- the editor save format would need to be virtually guaranteed to be compatible with future versions (much more so than active worlds/saves). It might be doable in text (which is future-safer), though that would be bad for maps themselves (since they'd be way smaller in the compressed binary format -- the arena text format isn't rich enough). Anyway, the game is getting far enough along though that we can kind of start to think about how an editor might work without slowing down overall development much. We were toying around with prototyping it, but there are many, many, many things potentially on the plate for the next few releases, so it's unclear if we'll get a glimpse at something like that. Seems potentially entertaining, anyway, to be able to make worlds or places directly for w.g. or fort or adv and pass them around.
Quote from: JesterHell696
1. I've noticed that in 40.24 all my retired adventurers are asexual, do we get to choose our adventurers sexuality?
2. Does the ability to choose your adventures personality open the possibility to choose your adventurers preferences or deity and worship level in the near future?
3. What skills have been added to adventure mode character creation and adventure mode in general?
4. With the addition of writing things in adventure mode what if any "support" crafting is available, for instance can the player make parchment to write on or is writing "paper" only available from world gen sources?
5.You mentioned writing a (bad) essay, does this mean that there are negative quality levels for music, dancing and writing or just that it was bad by comparison? if there are negative quality level what are they called?
6. You mentioned player character having feelings in adventure mode what sort of feelings can an adventurer experience and what event or action can effect an adventurers feelings?
1. Putnam mentioned that they are "indeterminate" -- it's just a place-holder until we actually have actions that allow you to set it. We might have explicit setting where in-game behavior isn't enough, but we haven't done anything more with it yet.
2. I'm not sure when, but full customization of worship and other preferences certainly fits with the rest now.
3. Just the art skills and a few of the conversation skills, if I remember. I don't think I added the scholar skills since you can't participate yet.
4. There's no new crafting in adv mode, aside from composing things and writing them down.
5. No, it just seemed bad. I haven't added a basic quality to written content, and I'm not sure if I will, though it seems like there could be something (and it would match the engravings etc. to judge them "objectively" in that way, even if it's a little strange to not dig into why it is considered so).
6. They generally have the same circumstance/emotion code as dwarf mode, though they have a few extra ones that occur in conversations and aren't able to do many things dwarves can do. It's just like the dwarf mode thought window though, with their little quotes about their emotions.
Quote from: Ribs
So, are monarchs going to be particularly interested in wearing crowns or other type of regal headwear, or you don't see dwarven nobility swinging that way?
Also, will we be able to equip our military with trinkets after this release?
That's all still the same. It would be nice for there to be more outfits and so on, but it also adds logistic troubles we are already swimming in, particularly with the military.
Quote from: falcc
Will adventurers have a need to bathe with this release, or is there still just an invisible counter for dirtiness somewhere? Speaking of which, since world gen civs can go through the complicated process needed to make paper, are they any closer to managing world gen soap?
and
With the new item modification changes will glazing something increase skill now, or is the new multi-material code entirely different from whatever causes that bug?
None of this came up.
Quote from: 4kn
do you manage performance (read:fps rate) of the game in some specific way or just go back to optimizing code when perfomance falls below an "acceptable" level?
is there any specific timeframe to transfer code to multithread?
Pretty much the latter. There are various things that go on -- optimizations while I'm working, suggestions from people that slowly get incorporated, and so on. It's not an entirely passive process, but there isn't a flowchart or anything.
There's no timeline for multithreading. As far as I can tell from conversations and forum threads about this, it would be difficult or impossible to do at all in a large sense. There's more hope for targeted improvements, but that still has the problem of me not knowing a thing about it or where best to apply it, and the risk of a months-long delay with zero gain on the other end.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
How do adventure mode taverns function? Are booze stockpiles managed in some way, or do they just regenerate while the adventurer is off-site? Do npc dwarves drink, dance, fight and sing without nudging from adventurers? Do they drink too much and die all over the world while the adventurer isn't around?
We aren't diving into the w.g. stockpiles in any serious way yet, and there's no post-w.g. production, so we're just doing a replenish on map gen for now. Once we have post-w.g. production and consumption of the resource stockpiles in whatever the first economy release will be, then doing more realistic stocking of the tavern will be on the table hopefully as part of a coherent system.
Everybody intelligent in the tavern who is so inclined does all the new stuff without nudging, when they are in play. They don't drink and die all over the world though. They visit taverns all over the world, but it doesn't try to simulate specifics in any way yet.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Why do the king and nobles always stay in the capitol, even when said capitol has been conquered/destroyed?
Is it different between world gen and post? Post w.g., I haven't looked at the refugee code, but perhaps they don't join refugees because of their site position links or something. Nobody understands how to leave once a place has been conquered (rather than running beforehand). The whole army thing is fundamentally unfinished and uninteresting right now.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 31, 2015, 01:52:45 pm
Also, can we tell what the kids are doing when playing these games in fortress mode?
Kinda expect someone here will be able to answer at least the latter.
Post by: Toady One on October 31, 2015, 03:02:15 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 31, 2015, 03:08:50 pm
Post by: lethosor on October 31, 2015, 03:23:19 pm
It seems to me that as long as saves are compatible, they shouldn't take much more memory to load (if anything, 32-bit saves might take less memory, since structures with pointers like STL strings would take up less space in memory). Granted, saves that take over 2/3/4 GB of memory probably won't be loadable by 32-bit DF, but there aren't too many of those around currently.Quote from: PidgeotHave you decided how you will distribute the 64-bit builds (once they're ready)? Will it be a single ZIP per OS, containing both 32 and 64-bit executables, or one ZIP for OS/bitness combination?
I'll probably have a bunch of separate zips, but the list is getting long the way it is formatted now. But that's the way I'm leaning. We'll also enter a sort of annoying save compat territory -- even if I manage compat between the bitnesses, 64-bit saves will often be too large for 32 bit DF to load. I imagine there could be "false" bug reports over this, but I'm not sure how to handle it without spending a zillion years coding calculations estimating memory sizes before load or something.
Regarding that, what sorts of issues are you running into with 32/64-bit compatibility? The main issue being mentioned is the difference in sizes of integer types (namely "long"), which I suppose you could resolve with fixed-width types (stdint.h), although it would be a pain to rewrite an entire project (or even just the (un)serialization code) to use those.
Post by: Knight Otu on October 31, 2015, 06:31:47 pm
I'm of two minds regarding the potential to jump straight to the artifact releases. On the one hand, it's sad that games and recipes would have to wait longer (hopefully not that much longer though) - on the other hand, MYTH GENERATOR! I've been looking forward to that so long!
Post by: TheFlame52 on October 31, 2015, 07:08:22 pm
Post by: falcc on October 31, 2015, 09:32:38 pm
As of now, a dwarf can go their whole life without eating their favorite food or seeing their favorite material. Are there plans to make dwarves' likes and dislikes change based on their environment?
There's a whole Fortress Talk about the development of the game's cultures, including making people's favorites more in line with their environment. Obviously no timeline exists.
http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_5_transcript.html (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_5_transcript.html)
Post by: Max™ on October 31, 2015, 09:50:08 pm
Hmmm, regarding army movement/army controllers/refugee behavior. I seem to recall those groups lacking an army_controller when Putnam and I were poking around trying to force sieges/teleport on the travel map. The former worked occasionally, the latter works fine. Is adding a default controller that leads a unit to a relative or nearby site or even just keeps them from sleeping eternally possible? I've followed refugees immediately after sacking a site and walked across the entire map with them, they just kinda stayed pointed at a given location until they hit an arbitrary location, bounced around a bit, and then when I let them travel freely again and caught up they just walked back to the campsites outside the sacked site and dozed off eternally.
The kids thing is kinda sad but gives me a new goal: will children remain unwilling to trade in any way, even little things like giving them toys or food later when they have to eat in adventurer mode? If I make some toys and "accidentally" leave them lying around, will they play with them?
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 31, 2015, 10:29:07 pm
Post by: Max™ on October 31, 2015, 11:46:14 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 01, 2015, 03:09:39 am
EDIT: Well shit. Seems they reject personal trading too. Son, I am disappoint.
Post by: Dirst on November 01, 2015, 06:21:06 am
That's the actual trade screen, I thought. Lemme double-check, but... >.<Children in DF know better than to accept gifts from strangers. I find it hard to consider this a bad thing.
EDIT: Well shit. Seems they reject personal trading too. Son, I am disappoint.
Post by: Neonivek on November 01, 2015, 11:19:38 am
A good way to understand children is that they are adults without the ability to understand or cope with things in general.
As someone once said: "Children are like adults without their lids on"
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 01, 2015, 04:19:21 pm
Ohh Toady if you ever have to think of how to handle children in terms of psychology.
A good way to understand children is that they are adults without the ability to understand or cope with things in general.
As someone once said: "Children are like adults without their lids on"
So basically your average dorf as-is. o3o
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on November 01, 2015, 04:28:48 pm
Post by: JesterHell696 on November 01, 2015, 08:47:21 pm
Post by: Andreus on November 01, 2015, 09:51:16 pm
Quote from: Toady One
I finished handling the last personality needs in dwarf mode -- dwarves can swipe and own and wear trinkets again somewhat like they did before, for instance, with the avaricious and extravagant dwarves doing it more than others.
Does this mean that we'll once again have dungeon masters who wear sixteen crowns and twenty capes and not a stitch else?
Post by: omega_dwarf on November 01, 2015, 10:48:07 pm
(And I don't really support the off-color "child care" that exists atm; haven't ever tried to implement it, either.)
Post by: Max™ on November 01, 2015, 11:48:00 pm
Post by: AceSV on November 02, 2015, 12:37:29 am
2. Will taverns exclusively dispense alcohol, or would it be possible to make something like coffee and tea with a different syndrome? If a food item comes with an alcohol-like syndrome, a magic mushroom for instance, is there a mechanic by which dwarves would recognize that food as syndrome-inducing or would they just chow down haphazardly?
4. If one were to mod in a civilization that was intelligent but did not have hands, like a race of dragons or alien blobs or whatever, would they be able to recruit visitors to manufacture items for them? If they permit slavery or are baby snatchers, would they be able to recruit captives to manufacture items for them?
5. Can visitors bring reaction knowledge with them? Let's say I've modded the game to play as goblins instead of dwarves. If a dwarf furnace operator joins my fortress, would he be able to manufacture steel? Conversely, if I'm playing dwarves, will my goblin visitors be able to produce whips and loincloths?
(I feel like some of these must have been asked before, but I don't remember an answer)
Post by: Silverybearded on November 02, 2015, 04:53:37 am
Will there be more things disguised as things? (Will it possible to learn the true nature of disguised things from people who know about it?) What about secret doorways?
And on that note, long-term goal question: Will there be the possibility of automatic lever handling? So that I can assign dorfs to guard lever-controlled doors, who will pull the lever when someone friendly wants through, or assign certain lever positions to certain alarm settings...
Post by: Knight Otu on November 02, 2015, 06:59:30 am
No, that's more of a status need similar to kings with crowns and such, which Toady has mentioned as not in the game yet.Quote from: Toady OneI finished handling the last personality needs in dwarf mode -- dwarves can swipe and own and wear trinkets again somewhat like they did before, for instance, with the avaricious and extravagant dwarves doing it more than others.
Does this mean that we'll once again have dungeon masters who wear sixteen crowns and twenty capes and not a stitch else?
1. What's the plan for paper-making industry? Will there be multiple types of "paper", like papyrus, large leaves, parchment, velum, hemp, dwarven beard hair fiber paper, plump helmet pulp paper? Will we be able to use paper to make other objects, like paper crafts, paper charms, paper windows or paper armor?Toady has mentioned papyrus, parchment, and paper in the dev log, so different types of paper are in. I think he mentioned that any cloth plant can be used for paper. There might be paper crafts, but anything else probably isn't on the table for this release.
3. Will it be possible to define a civilization with more than one species? for example, PeanutButter Elves and Jelly Elves that live together in the Sandwich civilization?No. Toady mentioned previously that this probably is too much work for this release. You could fake it with different castes, though.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
5. Can visitors bring reaction knowledge with them? Let's say I've modded the game to play as goblins instead of dwarves. If a dwarf furnace operator joins my fortress, would he be able to manufacture steel? Conversely, if I'm playing dwarves, will my goblin visitors be able to produce whips and loincloths?Not yet, no I'm pretty sure. They only bring their arts, values, and ethics right now as far as I remember.
Post by: WordsandChaos on November 02, 2015, 08:51:19 am
Post by: AceSV on November 02, 2015, 08:13:39 pm
3. Will it be possible to define a civilization with more than one species? for example, PeanutButter Elves and Jelly Elves that live together in the Sandwich civilization?No. Toady mentioned previously that this probably is too much work for this release. You could fake it with different castes, though.
It'd be a large rewrite, since the "race" variable for entity definitions is scattered all over the place. I'm going to deal with a lot of those dependencies just to get the multispecies forts running, and we'll see where we are when that work is done. Good fortune would be a full gutting, but I'm going to skip what I can for time. I'm not sure what a multiracial raw def would mean in terms of starting pops. It would be easiest just to split it in half/etc. I guess, though the test myth generator's interweaved stories of various critter origins is a large wrench in this process that might be worth waiting for.
Ah, okay. I do wonder if it would be possible to coax two species into getting along more frequently. Like if the PeanutButterElf civ was in the same starting biome as the JellyElf civ, could you guarantee a strong mixing of their populations. That's probably something we'll need to test ourselves.
Post by: eternaleye on November 03, 2015, 12:04:52 am
There's no timeline for multithreading. As far as I can tell from conversations and forum threads about this, it would be difficult or impossible to do at all in a large sense. There's more hope for targeted improvements, but that still has the problem of me not knowing a thing about it or where best to apply it, and the risk of a months-long delay with zero gain on the other end.
One thing to keep in mind is that there are multiple approaches to concurrency and/or parallelism, and they can have exceedingly different tradeoffs.
In particular, the ones I see as most likely to be useful:
1.) OpenMP
OpenMP is a framework designed to allow adding parallelism with minimal changes, while keeping the code entirely capable of compiling in single-threaded mode. It works by way of adding special #pragma directives immediately before the code that needs to behave in interesting ways in a parallel setting. Likely the most useful to you are:
"#pragma omp parallel for" - instructs the compiler to try and parallelize what it can of the for loop that follows the directive
"#pragma omp critical" - instructs the compiler that the following block or function is a 'critical section' that must execute in only one thread at a time
"#pragma omp master" - similar to critical, but must execute only in the main thread
OpenMP is supported in GCC and can be enabled via the -fopenmp compiler directive, and in Visual Studio 2010 and newer (though only OpenMP 2.0) (https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/tt15eb9t.aspx) with the /openmp directive.
2.) Speculative computation
It may be possible to predict _partial_ information early, and then speculatively compute results for each possible value the unknown information could take. This could be of value for any function that either does not modify state itself and merely calculates what modifications would be, or is an input to a later conditional. The results could then be stored in a map from the inputs to the output value, saving later computation if the prediction is correct. This is very much a time-memory tradeoff, and would need parameters to decide how much CPU and memory to spend on it.
I suspect a big place this might help is temperature and water level fluctuations - if a cell usually fluctuates between two values, and the parameters are relatively predictable, this could drastically reduce the main-thread's CPU load for such things: Once all the parameters are known, it just looks up the appropriate value.
This is a special case of memoization, in which the function is called speculatively to aggressively memoize values not yet encountered.
Memoization itself might be a useful trick as well, though it doesn't make use of threading. However, memoization-based techniques only work if all inputs to a function are known/declared/factored into the key of the map.
3.) Independent calculations that synchronize on tick
I suspect there are some _kinds_ of calculations that rarely or never interact with each other before the next tick. Running these in threads and then synchronizing on a semaphore at the end of a tick could be a relatively low-impact change.
Post by: 4kn on November 03, 2015, 07:03:36 am
One thing to keep in mind is that there are multiple approaches to concurrency and/or parallelism, and they can have exceedingly different tradeoffs.
I love you! almost as much as i will be loving ToadyOne as soon as he'll implement those tricks in DF code.
Post by: DarthAgnan on November 03, 2015, 10:21:45 am
5. Can visitors bring reaction knowledge with them? Let's say I've modded the game to play as goblins instead of dwarves. If a dwarf furnace operator joins my fortress, would he be able to manufacture steel? Conversely, if I'm playing dwarves, will my goblin visitors be able to produce whips and loincloths?Not yet, no I'm pretty sure. They only bring their arts, values, and ethics right now as far as I remember.
So, if immigrants now bring their values with them, does this mean that now you will be able to take say a goblin (or an elf? not sure which) into your fort and make him a butcher so he can butcher dwarf (etc.) corpses since goblins (or elves?) are ok with butchering intelligent beings?
Post by: Urist McVoyager on November 03, 2015, 02:56:18 pm
Post by: Bouchart on November 03, 2015, 03:25:43 pm
Post by: Mr S on November 03, 2015, 06:19:10 pm
5. Can visitors bring reaction knowledge with them? Let's say I've modded the game to play as goblins instead of dwarves. If a dwarf furnace operator joins my fortress, would he be able to manufacture steel? Conversely, if I'm playing dwarves, will my goblin visitors be able to produce whips and loincloths?Not yet, no I'm pretty sure. They only bring their arts, values, and ethics right now as far as I remember.
So, if immigrants now bring their values with them, does this mean that now you will be able to take say a goblin (or an elf? not sure which) into your fort and make him a butcher so he can butcher dwarf (etc.) corpses since goblins (or elves?) are ok with butchering intelligent beings?
I'm going to say no. While the immigrants bring their values, the do not necessarily bring their ethics with them. Also, it has been stated that immigrants will not bring technologies or reactions with them. Since Dwarven ethics preclude a "Butcher Urist" order from being issued at the butcher shop, I don't see how this could happen. In Vanilla forts, at least.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 03, 2015, 09:15:23 pm
Post by: AceSV on November 04, 2015, 01:08:05 am
5/15/2015 Toady One: I mentioned in some Future of the Fortress or other that ethics and values don't instantly assimilate when you grant resident or citizen status to a visitor that petitions to stay at your fortress, and that we'd make sure to have some definite evidence of that fact. I started by diversifying the "work satisfaction" thought by feeding in the job type and filtering it through the individual. In particular, any elves that have the misfortune of signing up for dwarven life can now emotionally process the experiences of tree felling, butchery and animal caging. We trust you'll respect this new situation in your labor settings.
That makes me wonder. I've made mod races that don't like to kill trees or don't like to kill animals, but there is no penalty for doing those things in fortress mode, except that you can't trade such items with your home civ. Perhaps they will now be penalized with emotional distress. I wonder if they can outright refuse though, as far as I know the only activity that can be refused is the butchering of sapients.
Post by: TBeholder on November 04, 2015, 03:05:28 am
What if there was a species and/or civ value(s) for basic aggresion level? Adjusted by mental characteristics and standing orders.Quote from: iceball3the dwarf civilians tend to opt for engaging it in combat if it is not threatening enough (say, a wild Dingo Man who got in a scuffle with one of the war dogs), or is the current behavior intended?I don't think the situation has changed. Dwarves'll jump into active combats to try to save people they like, but it isn't great in practice and I'm open to improving it. It would be best not to have to micromanage their behavior though, if possible.
There's no unhappy thought at this point, though certainly we'll need to do something over time for toys to truly have a point. Right now they are content to make believe or do music/dance stuff.What if... toys adjusted probabilities for preference generation? And reduced tendency to spend time on wandering (which is when they may be bitten by badgers) in favour of playing with toy(s) more or less at one tile - generally in quarters or wherever individual possessions are stored?Quote from: omega_dwarfDo children gain social or physical skills from playing with toys? Or even combat skills, like dodging? Toys irl help babies develop their minds and coordination (iirc), so it would stand to reason that a new system of Dwarven Child Care(TM) could be coming about! (You know, to replace other...methods...involving zombies, small animals, and dull spikes, for instance....)I haven't gotten into anything like that.
What if... both office/workplace and personal equipment like this could be defined in raws for civ roles - with lists of tags for variations (including empties for optional things) and values of preference/importance?Quote from: RibsSo, are monarchs going to be particularly interested in wearing crowns or other type of regal headwear, or you don't see dwarven nobility swinging that way?That's all still the same. It would be nice for there to be more outfits and so on, but it also adds logistic troubles we are already swimming in, particularly with the military.
Also, will we be able to equip our military with trinkets after this release?
Post by: Deinos on November 04, 2015, 07:15:38 am
5/15/2015 Toady One: ...can now emotionally process the experiences of tree felling, butchery and animal caging.
Aw hell, elves don't even like catching animals for training?
Post by: Button on November 04, 2015, 10:50:19 am
5/15/2015 Toady One: ...can now emotionally process the experiences of tree felling, butchery and animal caging.
Aw hell, elves don't even like catching animals for training?
Wait wait wait. Does that mean that if we have elven residents, they can tame animals for us without capturing them first? Just go up to them and say "sup"?
Post by: Knight Otu on November 04, 2015, 12:28:25 pm
No. Whatever it is that elves do is not yet implemented as an actual job. (though elves do bring animals in cages...)5/15/2015 Toady One: ...can now emotionally process the experiences of tree felling, butchery and animal caging.
Aw hell, elves don't even like catching animals for training?
Wait wait wait. Does that mean that if we have elven residents, they can tame animals for us without capturing them first? Just go up to them and say "sup"?
Post by: Dirst on November 04, 2015, 12:32:54 pm
Wait wait wait. Does that mean that if we have elven residents, they can tame animals for us without capturing them first? Just go up to them and say "sup"?"Hey Urist, any more elven volunteers? We aren't making any progress on the dragon training. This pleases me."
Post by: LordBaal on November 04, 2015, 12:42:21 pm
Post by: Deinos on November 05, 2015, 12:55:00 am
Post by: AceSV on November 05, 2015, 01:24:51 am
Post by: Putnam on November 05, 2015, 01:25:21 am
Post by: Eric Blank on November 05, 2015, 01:28:34 am
Is there any chance the FORCED entity tag, to make people wear certain items, could be enhanced? There doesn't seem to be a way to make enemy entities wear full armor, especially on their lower bodies, hands, and feet. I would really like it if there's a way to make enemies wear full suits of armor, and to perhaps make monarchs etc. wear jewelry. It would be much appreciated.
The forced variable doesn't work like that, actually. It just means that civilizations will always have access to clothing of those type, as opposed to 'common' or 'uncommon' or 'rare' which set the RNG to roll for whether or not a given civilization will have access to those items. High boots for instance are common for dwarves, but not forced, so sometimes, if your civ doesn't know how to make them because the RNG rolled against it, then you can't buy them from the caravans or order them made. If its FORCED, then that item is guaranteed to be available to evey civ of that entity.
It doesn't dictate what members must wear. There currently isn't a way to do that, and asking for that would belong in the suggestions forum, more likely.
Post by: Putnam on November 05, 2015, 01:31:35 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 05, 2015, 03:15:51 am
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 05, 2015, 07:52:31 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 05, 2015, 08:08:02 am
If it is not going to be changed in the next release in order to make foreign race AI soldiers use equipment from their own civilization; what equipment are the animal people that now take up residence in sites going to be given since they have no entity of their own with equipment to use?Didn't Toady already say:
Quote
they should use the equipment you make for them regardless of thatIn other words, if they don't use equipment you make for them, it's a bug to be fixed during bug fixes.
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 05, 2015, 01:47:13 pm
If it is not going to be changed in the next release in order to make foreign race AI soldiers use equipment from their own civilization; what equipment are the animal people that now take up residence in sites going to be given since they have no entity of their own with equipment to use?Didn't Toady already say:Quotethey should use the equipment you make for them regardless of thatIn other words, if they don't use equipment you make for them, it's a bug to be fixed during bug fixes.
I am talking about the AI soldiers *not* your own soldiers. If an animal person joins an AI settlement and it gets drafted into the army of that settlement, then what equipment is it going to use as it's own entity does not have any equipment.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on November 05, 2015, 03:05:31 pm
In the case the new update is released before the end of this month and the next FotF reply, this question is pointless.
Post by: Cruxador on November 05, 2015, 06:07:19 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 06, 2015, 05:22:07 am
Some will always prefer spikes, pits and dogs of course...
- I assume that's possible anyhow, is feeling horror at goblin corpses a 'value'?
Post by: Lielac on November 06, 2015, 06:20:52 am
Quote from: Toady One
(or if you want, put forth an argument you don't agree with just to start trouble)
-evil cackling- Playing devil's advocate is now a possibility! Can we shout an argument for everybody in earshot to hear to start trouble faster, or do we have to piss off everybody individually?
Post by: Silverybearded on November 06, 2015, 10:29:44 am
Post by: Dirst on November 06, 2015, 11:05:35 am
What, exactly, does the player do when he argues with someone? Do I get a prompt saying "Argue [ETHICS:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:PUNISH_CAPITAL], because it degrades the fabric of society", or something like that?Well, since that line of argument is torturing for fun, it really wouldn't be in your interest to argue for capital punishment, now would it? :)
Post by: Silverybearded on November 06, 2015, 11:20:04 am
Please. The entire premise of DF is torturing for fun. Thus, this line of reasoning could be a game-breaker.What, exactly, does the player do when he argues with someone? Do I get a prompt saying "Argue [ETHICS:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:PUNISH_CAPITAL], because it degrades the fabric of society", or something like that?Well, since that line of argument is torturing for fun, it really wouldn't be in your interest to argue for capital punishment, now would it? :)
Post by: Putnam on November 06, 2015, 11:46:55 am
Post by: Knight Otu on November 06, 2015, 12:47:36 pm
- I assume that's possible anyhow, is feeling horror at goblin corpses a 'value'?No, it's an emotional response to seeing a goblin corpse.
What, exactly, does the player do when he argues with someone? Do I get a prompt saying "Argue [ETHICS:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:PUNISH_CAPITAL], because it degrades the fabric of society", or something like that?Most likely, you'll see a string similar to the ones displayed for values in the dwarf descriptions (something like "I believe that family is one of the most important things in life." or "Anyone with half a brain should find the idea of family loathsome.") or that dwarves already say to illustrate their values ("There's nothing like a good friend." as with Toady's example on Twitter a few days ago.) Also note that ethics aren't values, and I believe Toady has only mentioned arguing about values.
Post by: Chaoseed on November 06, 2015, 09:54:37 pm
Quote from: Toady One(or if you want, put forth an argument you don't agree with just to start trouble)
-evil cackling- Playing devil's advocate is now a possibility!
"Hello, I'd like to start an argument..."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Putnam on November 06, 2015, 10:36:21 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on November 08, 2015, 08:18:38 pm
Let's say I've modded the game to include 20ish possible civilizations and they don't all show up in worldgen. Would it be possible for the races that weren't generated as civilizations to show up as visitors? Also, if a civilization goes extinct during history, can people from it still appear as visitors later?The first part of that question is no unless you do some weird modding I'll explain in a moment which from what has been said will probably work. The second question would definitely be yes, if the people still exist. Most of the time neither civilizations or the creatures making those civilizations never really go extinct. There's often a king hiding around in a cave somewhere, or maybe a few creatures not from the initial civilization still populating it somehow. Or in the case of the creatures, there'd likely be some outcasts hiding in the wilds, or some that had been abducted by goblins, or just living in another civilization in some form. It will be very unlikely that they'll visit since there'd be very few of them, but maybe if you make a tavern right next to the cave of the old king of the last dwarf civilization, he might come visit.
So while the answer first question in the most basic sense is no, I'm pretty sure you could do some odd things to get it to work. Basically you'd need a way for the creatures from the civilization that never generated to exist without the civilization. In vanilla I think all creatures that have entities only show up from those entities and are never in the wild or something. However, with the next update there'll be creatures like crundles, and aboveground animal people which can join civilizations despite never having had one themselves. So you could add in a [BIOME:SUBTERRANEAN_WATER] [UNDERGROUND_DEPTH:1:2] to dwarves and then if their civilization never showed up a few wild dwarves might still join a civilization and you'd get them as guests potentially. You might need them to be a seperate [CREATURE:WILD_DWARF] though, I don't know if creatures can both be in a civilization and in the wild, it might work, but that could be a backup plan. Of course this would result in the creature being found in the wild and uncivilized, and the visitors you get would only have values and knowledge or whatever from the civilization they joined rather than their own, but it is a way it could probably be done.
Post by: cochramd on November 09, 2015, 02:23:44 pm
- The lost wax method: a master model would be created from wax, then destroyed in order to create the mold, which itself would be destroyed to create the casting.
- Sand casting: a master model would be made of some sturdy material such as rock or metal, then used to create molds. This does not destroy the master model, though the casting would still destroy the mold. This process has the advantage of not needing to create a new master model, but also the disadvantage that some complex shapes are hard or impossible to cast with this method; this would probably be best represented in the game by this method being unable to create some or all statues and figurines.
Post by: Button on November 09, 2015, 03:41:13 pm
Quote from: ButtonDoes this number tag indicate the exact number of units to be used per reaction, the max number of units to be used per reaction, the max number of products per reaction, or the exact number of products per reaction?
How will this new tag interact with multiple-reagent reactions?
It's the max number of times it generates a batch of products per reaction (so it is a reaction tag, not a product or reagent tag). Reagents are used up until the max is reached -- and this just applies to those kinds of reagents which led to multiple products to begin with (bone stacks, etc.). Many reactions involve bringing a simple non-stacked/non-divisible item over as at least one of the reagents, and those wouldn't be affected, since only one batch is possible.
Well, what I really want to know is how it'll interact with reactions which take more than one stacking item. This doesn't come up much in vanilla obviously, but let's say I make a mixed-fruit brewing reaction that requires two fruit and produces 10 fruit punch. I want to limit the size of the product to 20, to keep it in line with other brewing reactions in terms of how fast you can crank it out. So I use [MAXREACTIONS:2] or whatever the tag is.
Now here's the tricky bit: let's say the brewer picked up a 5-stack of strawberries and a 1-stack of pomegranates (in that order). In the current system, brewing these together would form a 30-stack of fruit punch - even though the reagents are defined in identical quantities, they function as absolute minimums, and proportions are ignored.
In the new version with [MAXREACTIONS:2], what happens? Do we get a 10-stack of fruit punch and 4 leftover strawberries; a 20-stack of fruit punch and 2 leftover strawberries; or a 20-stack of fruit punch, 1 leftover strawberry and 1 leftover pomegranate (because the strawberries were picked up first, so the game pulls from the strawberry pile until it hits the reaction cap)?
Post by: Dirst on November 10, 2015, 01:19:47 am
Quote from: Captain Queeg
Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox DID exist, and I'd have produced that key if they hadn't of pulled the Caine out of action. I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officers...
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 10, 2015, 05:37:01 am
So while the answer first question in the most basic sense is no, I'm pretty sure you could do some odd things to get it to work. Basically you'd need a way for the creatures from the civilization that never generated to exist without the civilization. In vanilla I think all creatures that have entities only show up from those entities and are never in the wild or something. However, with the next update there'll be creatures like crundles, and aboveground animal people which can join civilizations despite never having had one themselves. So you could add in a [BIOME:SUBTERRANEAN_WATER] [UNDERGROUND_DEPTH:1:2] to dwarves and then if their civilization never showed up a few wild dwarves might still join a civilization and you'd get them as guests potentially. You might need them to be a seperate [CREATURE:WILD_DWARF] though, I don't know if creatures can both be in a civilization and in the wild, it might work, but that could be a backup plan. Of course this would result in the creature being found in the wild and uncivilized, and the visitors you get would only have values and knowledge or whatever from the civilization they joined rather than their own, but it is a way it could probably be done.
You would need either a seperate creature, in which case the dwarves would be naked and unarmed or you would have to make a [LAYER_LINKED] dwarf entity. Crundles however would not be able to join civilizations however except as pets, since they are not intelligent creatures :D.
Post by: Knight Otu on November 10, 2015, 10:48:10 am
Will future editions have certain metalworking tasks involve casting, and possibly not involve an anvil at all? I'm no expert on the production of metal statues, but cursory research indicates that it involves only casting and polishing, not banging on it with a hammer. Furthermore, if casting is implemented, will mold-making be a different skill and/or labor than casting? How will the skills interact in terms of determining the quality of the output?Questions like that tend to get answers along the line of "Sounds good, we're all for it, but there's no timeline when we'll add it. (and thus don't know the details yet)" Toady has mentioned being all for molds in the context of creating anvils before, though, so it may happen some day.
Post by: CLA on November 11, 2015, 05:24:29 am
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2015-11-10
bandits will also occasionally arrive to relax as well.
Are there plans for a "global justice" system, or rather something like supra-regional extradition agreements? That could involve a bandit visiting our Tavern being wanted by our parent civ and consequently being arrested and extradited with a liaison. (and could then the same happen to our adventurer?)
More generally, do you have any plans beyond "It would be nice to have" for the Justice and Diplomacy "arcs" to have intertwined features such as described above?
I'm thinking of extradition agreements, trade or common law unions, and prisoner exchange with enemy civs.
Oh, that reminds me:
Will nobles write special books that progress statesmanship/law like the other books do to their field? Specifically, will we see law compendiums, reforms, capitularies, etc?
I read back a bit through the devlog but couldn't find anything.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on November 11, 2015, 05:31:10 pm
I meant gorlaks. And, I know those things, but it's mostly the only solution. The [LAYER_LINKED] civilization is good, but it would be really odd for some of them considering that they're talking about worlds with 20 different entities, I doubt many of which would make sense underground. Could use combinations of them though.So while the answer first question in the most basic sense is no, I'm pretty sure you could do some odd things to get it to work. Basically you'd need a way for the creatures from the civilization that never generated to exist without the civilization. In vanilla I think all creatures that have entities only show up from those entities and are never in the wild or something. However, with the next update there'll be creatures like crundles, and aboveground animal people which can join civilizations despite never having had one themselves. So you could add in a [BIOME:SUBTERRANEAN_WATER] [UNDERGROUND_DEPTH:1:2] to dwarves and then if their civilization never showed up a few wild dwarves might still join a civilization and you'd get them as guests potentially. You might need them to be a seperate [CREATURE:WILD_DWARF] though, I don't know if creatures can both be in a civilization and in the wild, it might work, but that could be a backup plan. Of course this would result in the creature being found in the wild and uncivilized, and the visitors you get would only have values and knowledge or whatever from the civilization they joined rather than their own, but it is a way it could probably be done.
You would need either a seperate creature, in which case the dwarves would be naked and unarmed or you would have to make a [LAYER_LINKED] dwarf entity. Crundles however would not be able to join civilizations however except as pets, since they are not intelligent creatures :D.
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 11, 2015, 06:13:03 pm
I meant gorlaks. And, I know those things, but it's mostly the only solution. The [LAYER_LINKED] civilization is good, but it would be really odd for some of them considering that they're talking about worlds with 20 different entities, I doubt many of which would make sense underground. Could use combinations of them though.
[LAYER_LINKED] only works for cavern creatures, there is no way to make layer-linked surface creatures for some reason; it would also be good to have weapons made of stone for both of them as well being an option as opposed to simply metal or wood. Ideally you should no longer be able to have people basically living like animals and the game should automatically assign all intelligent beings to a generated entity with items to match (so no 2handed weapons for one handed creatures) without us having to do any work. The same would apply to intelligent (semi) megabeasts and would make the seriously underwhelming giants, ettins and minotours actually a threat.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on November 12, 2015, 02:27:44 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 12, 2015, 05:15:02 am
Will biographies contain a detailed list of the life events of the individual in question, similar to the one in legends mode?Pretty sure book details are still at the 'description of the content of a book' stage this time round. It'd be a heck of a task to render legends in all the different styles that books are described as having.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on November 17, 2015, 01:20:01 am
Post by: AceSV on November 18, 2015, 11:58:15 pm
1) Are the gods of DF "real"? Did primordial dwarves look at the mountains and think to themselves "there must be a great power to have built such things" and start worshiping an idea, or is there a genuine personality that hears dwarves when they pray and feels the scratches of their picks against its mountains? Or is the truth somewhere in between?
2) How random do you think deities should be? For example, would a deity be able to have domain over contradicting spheres, such as Fire and Water or Sun and Caverns? I tried using randomization to generate mythological associations, and got unintuitive combinations like a Wind God that was associated with Slug Men and Brewing and a Trickery God that was depicted as a Sperm Whale Man and rode upon a Giant Desert Scorpion. There were strong opinions about whether or not that was okay. If/when gods and mythology are expanded upon to include such information, would they be completely random like that, or would there be some guidance in the algorithms to prevent certain combinations?
EDIT: Oops, forgot to green
Post by: Putnam on November 19, 2015, 12:14:18 am
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on November 19, 2015, 12:55:42 am
More overall contextualization would be good.
If nothing else, it would be nice to be able to search by profession, gender, and race. At present, one can only search for names, which is particularly useless when their only distinguishing trait is their language.
Speaking of which, will we see family names in the future? Seeing as all the Vanilla cultures practice marriage, it's an odd exclusion.
And speaking of cultures, it occurs to me that while it makes sense for the likes of the Dwarves not to practice child labor, Goblins and some of the upcoming randomized Human civs are less likely to care. Are we going to get an ethics tag for this?
Post by: Inarius on November 19, 2015, 03:05:16 am
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on November 19, 2015, 04:53:11 am
@Urlance Woolsbane : your "question" seems more suggestions for me. You should perhaps put them in the appropriate topic. Otherwise, you'll probably have the same reply than many...The thing is, they're almost certainly things Toady has thought of himself, so making Suggestion topics would probably be pointless.
Post by: iceball3 on November 19, 2015, 03:13:07 pm
In order to satiate whatever the hell this argument is (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=153854.0), do you mind telling us what mathematics went in to determining the "size" of various creatures?Cubic Centimeters. The measurement of "Size" is volume, which can be extrapolated from weight by getting the density of flesh which is something that is already measured from real life creatures that DF's are modeled off of.
Post by: Vattic on November 19, 2015, 08:42:08 pm
Will we be seeing a tidier Legends Mode? A family tree option would be pretty cool, as would an option to toggle through levels of detail (e.g. show everything that happened to an individual/show everything except the injuries he inflicted on others/show only the non-fighting bits.)
More overall contextualization would be good.
Better Legends Mode is a long standing desire Toady has spoke of since time immemorial. Family trees are on the old dev pages.
Quote
Bloat 51 is the family tree interface. ... The tree interface is one of those things that always seems like it's going to get done soon, but I never actually get around to it. It wouldn't take much longer than a relationship dump, so it's just a matter of setting aside time for it.
Post by: Mr S on November 20, 2015, 12:26:09 pm
Post by: iceball3 on November 20, 2015, 12:47:46 pm
On 10/17/15 Toady said "Four more things to go.", and the Hype Train has not yet left the station at full steam!? Frankly, I'm disappointed, Forum. B)The overseer forgot to mandate the construction of more minecarts!
Either that or someone tried to fill them with lava whilst they were made of wood. Oops.
Post by: Button on November 20, 2015, 01:11:33 pm
On 10/17/15 Toady said "Four more things to go.", and the Hype Train has not yet left the station at full steam!? Frankly, I'm disappointed, Forum. B)
It would be wonderful if the new release came out in time for Thanksgiving, so I could spend the weekend playtesting and updating my mods. But I'm trying not to get my hopes up. :P
Post by: Bouchart on November 20, 2015, 01:16:14 pm
Post by: cochramd on November 20, 2015, 02:28:07 pm
Post by: LordBaal on November 20, 2015, 02:41:13 pm
Post by: SimRobert2001 on November 20, 2015, 04:45:30 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 20, 2015, 05:38:42 pm
Those four things could also be replaced with "four things and a buttload of bugs.I don't think anyone's expecting a bug free release. It's 4 things, a week of closed testing then 6 months of open testing, bug reporting/fixing/tweaking.
Post by: Silverybearded on November 20, 2015, 06:27:24 pm
Quote
[Striked out based on what the blog says](*) clean up some stuff with personality needs (mainly polishing off adventurer arguments over values)(*) go through some more non-dwarf item code testing in the fort(*) let long-term residents bug you a bit if you aren't holding up your end of arrangements
(*) tavern reputation improvements/indications(*) allow diplomats and bandits to visit your tavern(merchants are harder due to old code, will probably skip)
(*) clean up conflicts with meetings/witness reports and the new time-off mechanics(*) improve spectator text (again...)
(*) improve performance text (again...)
(*) rumor display (maps perhaps, though if that falls through we might skip)(*) payment as bard (or something, it's hard in the current framework)
(*) position as bard (as above)(*) a few minor improvements to musical form descriptions(*) more distinctions in individual composition as opposed to form (it'll still be very sparse for now)
(*) test passing incident rumors by song, in particular changing non-art reputations by lyrical content
What did I miss?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 20, 2015, 09:12:45 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on November 21, 2015, 05:38:25 am
From the list of remaining things:I think you're wrong about "tavern reputation improvements/indications". I'm pretty sure that refers to reputation of Dwarf Mode taverns, not reputation effects reducing tavern prices. I assume the actual finished item is "more distinctions in individual composition as opposed to form".Quote[Striked out based on what the blog says](*) clean up some stuff with personality needs (mainly polishing off adventurer arguments over values)(*) go through some more non-dwarf item code testing in the fort(*) let long-term residents bug you a bit if you aren't holding up your end of arrangements(*) tavern reputation improvements/indications(*) allow diplomats and bandits to visit your tavern(merchants are harder due to old code, will probably skip)
(*) clean up conflicts with meetings/witness reports and the new time-off mechanics(*) improve spectator text (again...)
(*) improve performance text (again...)
(*) rumor display (maps perhaps, though if that falls through we might skip)(*) payment as bard (or something, it's hard in the current framework)
(*) position as bard (as above)(*) a few minor improvements to musical form descriptions
(*) more distinctions in individual composition as opposed to form (it'll still be very sparse for now)
(*) test passing incident rumors by song, in particular changing non-art reputations by lyrical content
What did I miss?
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 21, 2015, 11:34:25 am
Post by: LordBaal on November 22, 2015, 09:36:56 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 22, 2015, 06:56:55 pm
I predict an early christmas release.When is early Christmas?
Round here the shops switch to Christmas mode the moment Halloween is over... :)
Post by: AceSV on November 22, 2015, 09:43:47 pm
Post by: DVNO on November 22, 2015, 11:18:55 pm
Post by: Dirst on November 23, 2015, 12:35:00 am
I predict an early christmas release.It would be awesome if the release came out "Black Friday" (which is actually Thanksgiving afternoon this year) and messed all the USians' shopping. Or the people in line with their laptops can sing the praises of DF to others in the line... You know they don't dare leave and lose their place.
Post by: Putnam on November 23, 2015, 01:27:08 am
My prediction is that he'll aim for a January release and start labeling them DF2014, DF2015, DF2016 instead of v.numbers. I'm excited to try the new features, but given that the last major version completely destroyed sieges, I'd rather see it progress slow and smooth and just make the game well.
What? Why? You may notice the current version is the 24th version in the 0.40 line.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 23, 2015, 02:24:35 am
Forum naming system is kind of confusing actually. DF2014 (version that everyone's playing released in Jan 2015). Followed by...DF2015? (Final release probably well into 2016).
Post by: SimRobert2001 on November 23, 2015, 05:57:25 am
DF20xx is a forum invented system. Would be odd for Toady to suddenly change the way he numbers the versions.
Forum naming system is kind of confusing actually. DF2014 (version that everyone's playing released in Jan 2015). Followed by...DF2015? (Final release probably well into 2016).
They are named after the year the major updates they were basedvon csme out.
Post by: SmileyMan on November 23, 2015, 03:24:39 pm
My prediction is that he'll aim for a January release and start labeling them DF2014, DF2015, DF2016 instead of v.numbers.You're confusing Toady with EA, and Dwarf Fortress with DwarfBall :)
Post by: cochramd on November 23, 2015, 03:31:25 pm
But that could involve someone throwing a dwarf.My prediction is that he'll aim for a January release and start labeling them DF2014, DF2015, DF2016 instead of v.numbers.You're confusing Toady with EA, and Dwarf Fortress with DwarfBall :)
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 23, 2015, 06:40:26 pm
My prediction is that he'll aim for a January release and start labeling them DF2014, DF2015, DF2016 instead of v.numbers. I'm excited to try the new features, but given that the last major version completely destroyed sieges, I'd rather see it progress slow and smooth and just make the game well.
It didn't completely destroy them, and the pathfinding bug that contributes to them being rarer has already been said to be fixed.
They had trouble pathing into/around mountains...lots of em.. toady said these are fixed for the next version, you still wont get them as often though because the reason they are different now is because of world activation, they need a reason to attack you now, they need too raise the army, and they need to march all the way to your fort now, they can and sometimes do, get destroyed on the way, and a lot of the time, they are too busy fighting other forts/other races to fight you your fort isn't the "center of the universe " anymore. world activation is a huge change.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 23, 2015, 10:41:16 pm
Now the real issue is the management of body parts and stress.
Post by: Putnam on November 24, 2015, 01:48:41 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 24, 2015, 02:45:27 am
But basically, I set both population triggers to 1 in entity.txt (Not sure which has an effect - worked though, first siege in Spring, year 2 at pop 21). Then I reduced the max site pop for goblins to about 80 I think (figured it might work like Populous and encourage a lot of emigration). Limited Dwarves and Elves to 3 civs each, humans to 5, goblins and kobolds to 50 each (forget why I didn't leave them at unlimited, possibly worldgen got stuck in a reject loop?). Made goblins require food to help reduce their total pop as suggested someplace around here.
Then basic worldgen with max sliders on everything. End result after 1050 years is goblins all over the place with plenty of choice of embark spots. I selected a scenic valley with goblin neighbors that included a fortress.
First time to play with the raws, so no idea yet what helped and what was redundant. All I know is I didn't have to tackle advanced worldgen, and you can choose a Fun embark without having to think about it too much.
Post by: Silverybearded on November 24, 2015, 06:24:01 am
"Discovered a bug: The steward of the dwarven Mountainhome, despite his longstanding grudges and secret alliance with the humans, failed to assassinate the Elven king during the 100-year-peace celebration."
"Wait, scratch that: The assassin was on his way, but lost his way in the labyrith, then decided to play with the magic trap. I... think he's alive? What on earth did that thing DO?"
Post by: reality.auditor on November 24, 2015, 05:17:04 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on November 24, 2015, 05:21:12 pm
GIMME THEM TEMPLES
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 24, 2015, 05:37:51 pm
I'm frankly just waiting for the day when Toady writes:
"Discovered a bug: The steward of the dwarven Mountainhome, despite his longstanding grudges and secret alliance with the humans, failed to assassinate the Elven king during the 100-year-peace celebration."
"Wait, scratch that: The assassin was on his way, but lost his way in the labyrith, then decided to play with the magic trap. I... think he's alive? What on earth did that thing DO?"
Its the fantasy matrix.
Post by: HMHAMz on November 24, 2015, 07:48:28 pm
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on November 24, 2015, 08:13:35 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on November 25, 2015, 02:16:24 am
And desecrated temples.
And music!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 25, 2015, 02:24:40 am
There will be joy.And the Elven carpenters will weep in their thousands. Gwa ha ha ha ha!!
And desecrated temples.
And music!
Post by: Silverybearded on November 25, 2015, 07:41:13 am
Quote from: Toady One
[E]lves [...] can now emotionally process the experiences of tree felling, butchery and animal caging. We trust you'll respect this new situation in your labor settings.Yes, quite. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VideoGameCrueltyPotential) There is nothing like (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ElvesVersusDwarves) ensuring all residents are (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYouElves) safe and happy. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlatantLies)
Post by: Neonivek on November 25, 2015, 07:56:44 am
I am going to be really pissed.
Not that I can really mean anything... but my feelings will be hurt :'(
Post by: Button on November 25, 2015, 11:03:30 am
Post by: Vattic on November 25, 2015, 11:24:14 am
I swear Toady, if you ever have characters discounting magic as superstitious mumbo jumbo in spite being an actual factual force that everyone can see infront of their eyes and recreate in a laboratory environment.I dunno there are bound to be simple folk who never encountered magic, or became jaded having been tricked by sham wizards (snake oil anyone?). I mean there are people alive today that don't, and do, believe in some strange things.
I am going to be really pissed.
Not that I can really mean anything... but my feelings will be hurt :'(
Post by: Putnam on November 25, 2015, 02:47:43 pm
I swear Toady, if you ever have characters discounting magic as superstitious mumbo jumbo in spite being an actual factual force that everyone can see infront of their eyes and recreate in a laboratory environment.
I am going to be really pissed.
Not that I can really mean anything... but my feelings will be hurt :'(
Toady has specifically denounced "factory magic" (the kind that usually can be recreated in a laboratory environment) in DFTalks. AFAIK, that means he's going for "extremely rare artifacts of power" rather than "the local level 5 wizard making +1 long swords".
Post by: Amperzand on November 25, 2015, 02:54:19 pm
Quote from: Toady One
We're done with the list
The Hype Train is leaving the station, all aboard the Hype Train.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on November 25, 2015, 02:56:12 pm
Oh dear. Call the SCP Foundation...Quote from: Toady OneWe're done with the listThe Hype Train is leaving the station, all aboard the Hype Train.
Post by: Willfor on November 25, 2015, 04:10:18 pm
This is also somewhat up in the air given his statements of support for a slider-based system of magic levels in worlds. From none to zany. I imagine that there might actually be good cause for "magic isn't real" sentiments in worlds where it's either not at all present or just slightly present.I swear Toady, if you ever have characters discounting magic as superstitious mumbo jumbo in spite being an actual factual force that everyone can see infront of their eyes and recreate in a laboratory environment.
I am going to be really pissed.
Not that I can really mean anything... but my feelings will be hurt :'(
Toady has specifically denounced "factory magic" (the kind that usually can be recreated in a laboratory environment) in DFTalks. AFAIK, that means he's going for "extremely rare artifacts of power" rather than "the local level 5 wizard making +1 long swords".
Post by: Neonivek on November 25, 2015, 09:09:08 pm
Post by: Amperzand on November 25, 2015, 09:17:32 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 25, 2015, 10:33:20 pm
Quote
We're doing release mode tests now and going through the churn of tweaks that happens before it's ready enough to go.
Hype Train has no brakes.
Post by: Rose on November 26, 2015, 01:59:59 am
Flat-Earth Atheism is certainly an annoying trope.Round-Earth Theism is pretty annoying too.
Post by: Silverybearded on November 26, 2015, 02:20:27 am
I think he means this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatEarthAtheist).Flat-Earth Atheism is certainly an annoying trope.Round-Earth Theism is pretty annoying too.
Also, is there any other devblog that keeps you so much on the edge of your seat?
Post by: Amperzand on November 26, 2015, 03:22:08 am
Post by: Silverybearded on November 26, 2015, 03:34:22 am
Post by: Amperzand on November 26, 2015, 06:11:03 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 26, 2015, 08:09:25 am
From how far away will visitors come? Will it be a case of no human neighbours=no human visitors or will travellers journey to the far ends of the planet in search of legendary Dwarfish mead and dingo roasts?
Post by: cochramd on November 26, 2015, 08:21:16 am
This is also somewhat up in the air given his statements of support for a slider-based system of magic levels in worlds. From none to zany. I imagine that there might actually be good cause for "magic isn't real" sentiments in worlds where it's either not at all present or just slightly present.Zany, you say?
ALL ABOARD THE HYPE TRAIN, FIRST STOP: EBERRON!
Post by: LordBaal on November 26, 2015, 09:17:53 am
ALL ABOARD THE HYPE TRAIN, FIRST STOP: EBERRON!- Don't you mean Erebor?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: cochramd on November 26, 2015, 12:21:45 pm
I'm pretty sure that using "Eberron" as shorthand for "fantasy setting with insanely high amounts of magitech" is not going to get me sued any more than using "kleenex" in place of "facial tissue" would.ALL ABOARD THE HYPE TRAIN, FIRST STOP: EBERRON!- Don't you mean Erebor?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LordBaal on November 26, 2015, 12:39:31 pm
Anyway... I think early Christmas release would be something like second week of December.
Post by: cochramd on November 26, 2015, 01:06:32 pm
Wow that joked passed way up over your head didn't it? ::)If anything, Erebor would be more likely to get me sued than Eberron would, since the latter has a much broader fair use policy. If the irony of that was the joke, no, it wasn't lost on me, I just saw no humor in it.
Post by: LordBaal on November 26, 2015, 01:13:23 pm
Post by: AceSV on November 27, 2015, 11:31:44 am
Post by: Dirst on November 27, 2015, 04:33:57 pm
What is the criteria for creatures coming to visit? Would gorlaks, troglodytes and trolls, or wandering overworld animal-folk be able to walk into your taverns and start partying or will they still operate as wild animals? Will wandering gorlaks/trogs/trolls/animal-folk be equipped with weapons or armor or skills from interacting with other civs? I haven't seen kobolds mentioned in the visitor examples, are they capable of visiting?They are definitely capable of visiting your tavern. Whether they are capable of paying for the things they take is a completely separate question.
Post by: Silverybearded on November 28, 2015, 07:41:45 am
Post by: AceSV on November 28, 2015, 08:25:50 pm
What is the criteria for creatures coming to visit? Would gorlaks, troglodytes and trolls, or wandering overworld animal-folk be able to walk into your taverns and start partying or will they still operate as wild animals? Will wandering gorlaks/trogs/trolls/animal-folk be equipped with weapons or armor or skills from interacting with other civs? I haven't seen kobolds mentioned in the visitor examples, are they capable of visiting?They are definitely capable of visiting your tavern. Whether they are capable of paying for the things they take is a completely separate question.
And then there's whether they are capable and whether they are willing. But that brings up an interesting idea. You could have thieves that enter the fortress as visitors instead of hiding and running from the first cat that crosses their path.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on November 28, 2015, 11:46:17 pm
Post by: Amperzand on November 29, 2015, 01:04:18 am
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on November 29, 2015, 01:32:49 am
I don't think there's a way in current versions for people to dislike food, so I wouldn't think so, but if it becomes an issue, it should be easy enough for Toady to add.It wouldn't be so different from Dwarves not butchering sapients, after all.
You know, it occurs to me, what with the new changeable ethics, that you might wind up with cannibalistic Dwarves, in Vanilla.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 29, 2015, 01:37:10 am
Bug filled, unplayable, save corruption, broken combat, broken dancing, epic loyalty cascades.....
Ok, calmed down a bit now.
Post by: AceSV on November 29, 2015, 01:43:10 am
I don't think there's a way in current versions for people to dislike food, so I wouldn't think so, but if it becomes an issue, it should be easy enough for Toady to add.It wouldn't be so different from Dwarves not butchering sapients, after all.
You know, it occurs to me, what with the new changeable ethics, that you might wind up with cannibalistic Dwarves, in Vanilla.
But in the same vein, wouldn't elves be offended by sitting on wooden chairs on wooden tables?
Post by: Amperzand on November 29, 2015, 01:45:22 am
Post by: Silverybearded on November 29, 2015, 02:02:16 am
62 hours to go. Hype, hype, hype!!!Wait, how do you know that?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 29, 2015, 03:15:59 am
Twitter:62 hours to go. Hype, hype, hype!!!Wait, how do you know that?
Quote
Crash cleaned up with toys and make believe. 62 hours until you too can enjoy inebriated dwarven scholars arguing about the nature of power.
Post by: Silverybearded on November 29, 2015, 03:26:32 am
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/e/e4/Dwarf_male250x.gif/revision/latest?cb=20120511203039)Twitter:62 hours to go. Hype, hype, hype!!!Wait, how do you know that?QuoteCrash cleaned up with toys and make believe. 62 hours until you too can enjoy inebriated dwarven scholars arguing about the nature of power.
It's happening (http://www.tickcounter.com/countdown/20151202120000am/w5260/1/Dwarf_Fortress_update)
...alright, I gotta ask: Am I the only one who will keep that link open until it runs out?
Post by: Amperzand on November 29, 2015, 05:40:10 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 29, 2015, 07:05:51 am
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on November 29, 2015, 09:09:50 am
Post by: NJW2000 on November 29, 2015, 09:16:11 am
Oh well can't wait.Teeth chattering from expectation. Is it too early to start staying up in expectation for it?
Post by: AceSV on November 29, 2015, 11:16:03 am
Post by: Anonymax on November 29, 2015, 12:30:41 pm
62 hours to go. Hype, hype, hype!!!
Bug filled, unplayable, save corruption, broken combat, broken dancing, epic loyalty cascades.....
Ok, calmed down a bit now.
HYPE!!1!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: lethosor on November 29, 2015, 12:31:02 pm
Any sense of how quickly a new LNP would follow? It looks like last time the new version was released in January and the LNP followed in July.
That would be something to ask individual LNP maintainers. There are three different currently-maintained packs, which wouldn't necessarily be released at the same time.
The last major version (0.40.01) was released in July 2014, and from what I remember, two of those packs were released within a few days but missing some features they had in 0.34.11 (particularly utilities).
Post by: Button on November 29, 2015, 01:44:49 pm
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on November 29, 2015, 09:28:27 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 29, 2015, 10:19:54 pm
Post by: lethosor on November 29, 2015, 10:36:24 pm
Post by: Amperzand on November 29, 2015, 11:49:21 pm
Post by: Nasu Toad Snatcher on November 30, 2015, 09:17:06 am
Post by: Bouchart on November 30, 2015, 10:29:29 am
Post by: Nasu Toad Snatcher on November 30, 2015, 10:45:37 am
Uh, but I'm not trying to start an argument here. This IS where questions for the next Future of the Fortress reply are to posted, right?
Post by: Button on November 30, 2015, 11:29:41 am
This IS where questions for the next Future of the Fortress reply are to posted, right?
Yep! Highlight the question in limegreen to make sure Toady sees it.
That said, in answer to your question -
An improvement in the UI would make the game a lot more accessible to other people. What priority will UI that take in development?
Low. Toady's development priorities prioritize "what Toady feels like working on," not making the game accessible/expanding the userbase.
That said, stop being a douche Bouchart.
Post by: cochramd on November 30, 2015, 12:23:21 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mephansteras on November 30, 2015, 12:27:42 pm
So, yes, low for now, but specifically because he doesn't want to spend a full development cycle doing work that he's going to then immediately break and have to redo when he adds in the next set off features.
Post by: LordBaal on November 30, 2015, 12:48:27 pm
Toady will probably work to refine the UI once he fells he's done with most features or have a clearer picture on it. In the mean time it's good of us to exercise our minds :P
EDIT: Oh well, I didn't say anything that Mephansteras didn't said on his post already. Yeah that would be the reason.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on November 30, 2015, 02:57:58 pm
1. Did you intend for the tree density to increase quickly over time (and not just some of the time in some embarks, but always)?
2. If so, was this to remove strain on hardware?
3. Do you currently have methods in place to prevent tree density from increasing? If so, what?
4. Have those methods, if any, changed from DF2014 to DF2015?
Post by: LordBaal on November 30, 2015, 03:18:01 pm
Post by: thvaz on November 30, 2015, 05:36:06 pm
Eager for the new version!
Post by: King_of_Baboons on November 30, 2015, 06:33:06 pm
Also,with beer causing drunkness in people does that mean the we are somewhat close to get,or at least mod,potions that cause other effects in dorfs into the game now?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on November 30, 2015, 06:50:12 pm
Are adventurers experience any side effect caused by beer on this update?We are already at being able to mod potions that cause other effects in dorfs into the game now. They just can't tell the difference between those and alcohol so they drink whatever and it's difficult to control.
Also,with beer causing drunkness in people does that mean the we are somewhat close to get,or at least mod,potions that cause other effects in dorfs into the game now?
Post by: Demonic Gophers on November 30, 2015, 08:40:15 pm
Are adventurers experience any side effect caused by beer on this update?On Twitter, Toady talked about an adventurer who likes brawls, drinking, and trouble ending up "Bleeding, wasted in the mud". So it looks like adventurers will be able to get drunk.
Also,with beer causing drunkness in people does that mean the we are somewhat close to get,or at least mod,potions that cause other effects in dorfs into the game now?
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on November 30, 2015, 09:07:38 pm
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on December 01, 2015, 12:39:30 am
Post by: Amperzand on December 01, 2015, 01:08:31 am
Post by: Zarathustra30 on December 01, 2015, 01:40:15 am
Last minute question here. Can a down-on-his-luck "deity" come as a visitor to your tavern, or apply for citizenship? And if so, will his status have any !!FUN!! effects?
The question is not whether it can. The question is whether it was intended.
Post by: kemoT on December 01, 2015, 02:08:46 am
Post by: Toady One on December 01, 2015, 03:04:01 pm
Quote from: lethosor
Regarding that, what sorts of issues are you running into with 32/64-bit compatibility? The main issue being mentioned is the difference in sizes of integer types (namely "long"), which I suppose you could resolve with fixed-width types (stdint.h), although it would be a pain to rewrite an entire project (or even just the (un)serialization code) to use those.
I haven't tried it with DF (I just got the test project running), but we should get to that once we get through the bug-fix releases. Fortunately most of the project already uses bit-respecting typing (int32_t etc.), but there might be some trickiness choosing the right typedefs on every system, especially if we want save compatibility all around (not that it matters so much since the average 64 bit save will probably use too much memory to load in 32 bits anyway). Knowledgeable people have been PMing me tips, though we'll really have to see on the first big compile if it just splatters all over the place.
Quote from: Max^TM
Is adding a default controller that leads a unit to a relative or nearby site or even just keeps them from sleeping eternally possible?
If I make some toys and "accidentally" leave them lying around, will they play with them?
There's already code to add controller for people heading home, but it wasn't working well since it couldn't always find a home and didn't look very hard. The new release has some improvements, but we could afford some more.
If you drop toys near children, they should play with them, I think.
Quote
Quote from: Daniel the FinlanderI assume that the current growth rates of trees will be adjusted, because they grow ridiculously fast right now, but will trees grow at realistic speeds or at accelerated speeds? If the latter is the case, probably because of gameplay reasons, how much faster will they grow?Quote from: jwoodward48df1. Did you intend for the tree density to increase quickly over time (and not just some of the time in some embarks, but always)?
2. If so, was this to remove strain on hardware?
3. Do you currently have methods in place to prevent tree density from increasing? If so, what?
4. Have those methods, if any, changed from DF2014 to DF2015?
I'm not really sure how it'll end up. We need to deal with the youngest trees differently, since there's that pop when they get a full trunk and that happens too soon in the process. They can probably afford to grow slowly overall, so that you feel you are losing your forest by chopping it down, but I don't really have a feel for how it ends up after 20 years currently. Tree density should eventually depend on the rainfall, if that's broken -- there's a water use field that gets used during initial placement, but I don't recall how it acts or if it even exists after play begins. Nothing has changed for this time that I remember.
Quote from: AceSV
What's the plan for paper-making industry? Will there be multiple types of "paper", like papyrus, large leaves, parchment, velum, hemp, dwarven beard hair fiber paper, plump helmet pulp paper? Will we be able to use paper to make other objects, like paper crafts, paper charms, paper windows or paper armor?
Will taverns exclusively dispense alcohol, or would it be possible to make something like coffee and tea with a different syndrome? If a food item comes with an alcohol-like syndrome, a magic mushroom for instance, is there a mechanic by which dwarves would recognize that food as syndrome-inducing or would they just chow down haphazardly?
If one were to mod in a civilization that was intelligent but did not have hands, like a race of dragons or alien blobs or whatever, would they be able to recruit visitors to manufacture items for them? If they permit slavery or are baby snatchers, would they be able to recruit captives to manufacture items for them?
We have three branches for the release: papyrus, paper (from cloth plants) and parchment. Papyrus is easier to use if you can find it on the map (you make sheets directly at the farmer's workshop. Otherwise you'll have to set up a mill+press for paper (mill to slurry, press slurry to sheet), or go through the parchment process: calcium carbonate stones at kiln -> quicklime, quicklime at ashery -> milk of lime, hide + milk of lime at tanner -> parchment sheet. Currently in the game, a parchment sheet is called a "vellum sheet" when made from a cow (of any age). Otherwise, it is called "<animal> parchment sheet". These materials can currently only be use to make quires or scrolls (with rollers). Then you can bind the quires into codices with bindings.
The "drink" item is still special and is what the "immoderate" personality trait interacts with. They don't recognize where syndromes come from.
You can't use reactions/jobs outside of your entity, so if you didn't have the jobs to begin with, visitors don't bring their use. We haven't expanded dwarf mode to support non-dwarfy things.
Quote from: Silverybearded
You mentioned "books disguised as levers". Is this going to be a thing? Will I one day go in a library and try to take a book, only for the game to be like "Congratulations you found a secret lever HERE HAVE SOME MAGMA"
Will there be more things disguised as things? (Will it possible to learn the true nature of disguised things from people who know about it?) What about secret doorways?
And on that note, long-term goal question: Will there be the possibility of automatic lever handling? So that I can assign dorfs to guard lever-controlled doors, who will pull the lever when someone friendly wants through, or assign certain lever positions to certain alarm settings...
Who knows when. First chance would probably be the ruin-diving treasurey stuff.
The pathing is difficult but not impossible for the lever job. I suppose it's different from the one-way door problem, which is impossible in our path component system. But I don't have any plans for any of it.
Quote from: DarthAgnan
So, if immigrants now bring their values with them, does this mean that now you will be able to take say a goblin (or an elf? not sure which) into your fort and make him a butcher so he can butcher dwarf (etc.) corpses since goblins (or elves?) are ok with butchering intelligent beings?
Nope. The interface for building jobs still uses your base civ. I'm not sure how it could work -- perhaps you'd have to assign the unusual critter to the workshop profile or something.
Quote from: Urist McVoyager
Will we see an embark scenario where we found a new Civ all on our own?
I'm not sure what that would mean, since the overall civ is more like a culture in a lot of ways. We're hoping from the beginning of scenarios to have the ability to be much more split from your monarch/parent civ. I don't know about inventing a new civ from scratch though, outside of some sort of future editor.
Quote from: Bouchart
Will immigrant egg-layers like kobolds or a (presumably modded) animalman like a platypus man be able to use nest boxes?
I'm not sure. I haven't changed anything, so whatever woes modders have experienced will still be woes. Now they are more likely to be fixed though, as I learn about them, since the visitors are a vanilla feature, aside from the pathing stuff I don't know how to fix.
Quote from: GoblinCookie
If it is not going to be changed in the next release in order to make foreign race AI soldiers use equipment from their own civilization; what equipment are the animal people that now take up residence in sites going to be given since they have no entity of their own with equipment to use?
I can't be sure since it seems inconsistent overall, but the integrated animal people pops look like they get added like other site pops, and the independent animal people heroes get set to the parent civ of the site they first settle at, so my closest guess is that they'd act like those.
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
Will there be roadside inns outside of towns in the next update? I don't recall you mentioning in the devblog, just in the development notes.
Nope, I didn't get to it. I don't have enough of a framework yet for small places that aren't like the larger sites without killing memory -- it might all be grouped together now when I do little lumber sites and so on.
Quote from: Cruxador
Are petitions purely a player decision, or do other members of your civ have opinions? In other words, can unpopular decisions in immigration policy result in poor public happiness and unrest?
Nobody cares right now, but as with justice decisions, it would fit to have them care.
Quote from: Lielac
Can we shout an argument for everybody in earshot to hear to start trouble faster, or do we have to piss off everybody individually?
I haven't tried it. You can shout your values out. I just don't know how many people take you up on your offer.
Quote from: Button
Well, what I really want to know is how it'll interact with reactions which take more than one stacking item. This doesn't come up much in vanilla obviously, but let's say I make a mixed-fruit brewing reaction that requires two fruit and produces 10 fruit punch. I want to limit the size of the product to 20, to keep it in line with other brewing reactions in terms of how fast you can crank it out. So I use [MAXREACTIONS:2] or whatever the tag is.
Now here's the tricky bit: let's say the brewer picked up a 5-stack of strawberries and a 1-stack of pomegranates (in that order). In the current system, brewing these together would form a 30-stack of fruit punch - even though the reagents are defined in identical quantities, they function as absolute minimums, and proportions are ignored.
In the new version with [MAXREACTIONS:2], what happens? Do we get a 10-stack of fruit punch and 4 leftover strawberries; a 20-stack of fruit punch and 2 leftover strawberries; or a 20-stack of fruit punch, 1 leftover strawberry and 1 leftover pomegranate (because the strawberries were picked up first, so the game pulls from the strawberry pile until it hits the reaction cap)?
I don't even understand why two stacks were grabbed in the first place, so I have no idea. Was the "two fruit" one reagent def with an amount of two or two reagent defs with amounts of one? In any case, you all have played around with it a lot more than I have. In general, when it loops through the reagents, it checks what the potential multiplier is and goes with the minumum overall. The new behavior is to then cap that minimum by the new multiplier cap.
Quote from: CLA
Are there plans for a "global justice" system, or rather something like supra-regional extradition agreements? That could involve a bandit visiting our Tavern being wanted by our parent civ and consequently being arrested and extradited with a liaison. (and could then the same happen to our adventurer?)
More generally, do you have any plans beyond "It would be nice to have" for the Justice and Diplomacy "arcs" to have intertwined features such as described above?
I'm thinking of extradition agreements, trade or common law unions, and prisoner exchange with enemy civs.
Oh, that reminds me:
Will nobles write special books that progress statesmanship/law like the other books do to their field? Specifically, will we see law compendiums, reforms, capitularies, etc?
We had a bit about bounty hunting and so on, and we'll be exploring ideas of jurisdiction and so forth with the initial law framework, but I'm not sure how it'll play out. I'm pretty sure some of our laws will end up written down with the first law framework release. The new abstract knowledge framework has a single node for philosophy of law, and these things will probably join up and slowly be expanded. I've read through a number of disparate ancient law codes in preparation so far, so hopefully I can do it justice.
Quote from: vjmdhzgr
Now that the release is a lot closer to done than the last time I asked, what are the additions to the raws for this update going to be? Like are there now tokens to influence what kind of dance or music styles civilizations develop, or whether they build libraries and what they like to put in those libraries?
I guess it's too late now. It's in the file changes.txt. I don't think it says in there, but entity values influence how the art forms develop.
Quote from: AceSV
How random do you think deities should be? For example, would a deity be able to have domain over contradicting spheres, such as Fire and Water or Sun and Caverns? I tried using randomization to generate mythological associations, and got unintuitive combinations like a Wind God that was associated with Slug Men and Brewing and a Trickery God that was depicted as a Sperm Whale Man and rode upon a Giant Desert Scorpion. There were strong opinions about whether or not that was okay. If/when gods and mythology are expanded upon to include such information, would they be completely random like that, or would there be some guidance in the algorithms to prevent certain combinations?
There's already guidance preventing contradictions, and I know some people disagree with that to varying degrees. There are some cases it could allow with a bit of explanation or exposition (as with Poseidon and horses, or whatever). If it's just completely random, it ends up being too messy most of the time, in my opinion. The new myth generator should eventually allow for events to guide strange associations, so that you could end up with something weird, but since there's a story behind it, it feels better. Sometimes, maybe random associations just form without a cause-effect relationship, and that would be fine in moderation, and perhaps lead to some serendipitous flavor and variety, but it can easily overwhelm.
Quote from: DVNO
Can adventurers request permanent residence at Player Fortresses while playing them in adventure mode? If so, what noble would the adventurer need to speak to?
Yeah, the mayor/expedition leader should work (or the monarch). It checks for law making and/or meet workers, responsibility-wise.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
From how far away will visitors come? Will it be a case of no human neighbours=no human visitors or will travellers journey to the far ends of the planet in search of legendary Dwarfish mead and dingo roasts?
It lets them travel a long way right now (but not across water). I'm not sure how it'll end up over time.
Quote from: AceSV
What is the criteria for creatures coming to visit? Would gorlaks, troglodytes and trolls, or wandering overworld animal-folk be able to walk into your taverns and start partying or will they still operate as wild animals? Will wandering gorlaks/trogs/trolls/animal-folk be equipped with weapons or armor or skills from interacting with other civs? I haven't seen kobolds mentioned in the visitor examples, are they capable of visiting?
They need to arrive as a guest to fit in to the code. Wandering critters don't count. Gorlaks and animal people are still an odd case because it doesn't recognize the intelligent status of wilderness populations until they make a break and enter a civ. Kobolds are not capable of visiting. It doesn't change anything about wilderness populations equipment-wise or anything-else-wise -- there are breakaway segments that join as a city pop which is stored differently.
Quote from: Silverybearded
Are there any plans fiddling with SVN?
The wikipedia disambiguation gave support vector networks as the closest match, and I don't know what those are.
Quote from: Urlance Woolsbane
While this won't be an issue in Vanilla, what happens if you're playing a race that's not opposed to cannibalism, and you start serving the meat of sapients in your tavern? Will other races, particularly the ones whose kindred you've butchered, object to this state of affairs?
There's no food service right now, and we haven't handled that case in general.
Quote from: King_Of_Baboons
Are adventurers experience any side effect caused by beer on this update?
Yeah, all of them (except it doesn't take control of you to model erratic behavior), though it can take a bit of time to kick in as in real life, so you have to be careful.
Quote from: kemaT
Can adult dwarfs play with their children?
Nope, they don't really play with each other yet either, except in performances.
Post by: LordBaal on December 01, 2015, 03:20:22 pm
Post by: iceball3 on December 01, 2015, 03:26:51 pm
When it comes to deities, will they always be somewhat randomly generated, or are you considering making RAW defining deities to be an alternate option that one could take (if/when you get to it)?
Post by: Silverybearded on December 01, 2015, 04:19:09 pm
Anyway, as soon as world gen stops crashing, I will hopefully once again enjoy
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on December 01, 2015, 04:33:58 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 01, 2015, 04:43:19 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 01, 2015, 05:02:46 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 01, 2015, 05:14:03 pm
Quote from: DarthAgnanSo, if immigrants now bring their values with them, does this mean that now you will be able to take say a goblin (or an elf? not sure which) into your fort and make him a butcher so he can butcher dwarf (etc.) corpses since goblins (or elves?) are ok with butchering intelligent beings?
Nope. The interface for building jobs still uses your base civ. I'm not sure how it could work -- perhaps you'd have to assign the unusual critter to the workshop profile or something.
Drawing more questions off this statement, would this be indicative of seperated 'hired guest' labour roles mainly constraining them to military service and roles that cannot compel ethical conflict (such as the highlighted elven butchery in the uppermost quote) perhaps illustrated by a modified UI?
Eg: forseeably if animal men receive any improvements following the introductory launch release phase of thier occupancy within your base, would you be able to set them additional labours not typically assigned to workshops? IE: task amphibious races to unrestricted building functions in underwater/lava (with magma safe clothing) settings such as the breaching of aquifers due to [nobreathe], or task legendary climbing ability flying races to scaling inaccessible rough wall verticality in order to build walls/haul/deconstruct?
Very much looking forward to the new release within the next set of hours, certainly the air is wrife with excitement. :D
Post by: cochramd on December 01, 2015, 05:54:18 pm
1. When do you plan to have children and spouses inherit noble positions from their dead parents/spouses? While it's convenient that I can get rid of the nobility with a single unfortunate accident, it sucks knowing that all the work you put into making your baron/count/duke some very nice rooms with very nice furniture will be for naught once they croak.
2. On a related note, do you have plans to make the children and spouses of nobles act like nobles? No, I'm not a masochist, why do you ask?
3. I know you said you'll be planning on hunting down bugs for a while, but what new features do you plan to work on next?
Post by: Dirst on December 02, 2015, 12:47:19 am
Post by: JesterHell696 on December 02, 2015, 02:47:59 am
Post by: kemoT on December 02, 2015, 03:18:08 am
Post by: GoblinCookie on December 02, 2015, 08:36:32 am
2. At what point do you intend to switch to 64bit and what kind of new features will this allow you to implement?
3. Now animal people are in the spotlight, are you going to implement something like [LAYER_LINKED] for surface animal people giving them basic weapons and armour.
4. Also, are you going to add in stone weaponry to equip both surface dwelling animal people and potentially the existing layer-linked ones as well.
Post by: CLA on December 02, 2015, 09:24:41 am
Basically, every recorded event (dingo attacked, killed a deer, wandered around, climbed mountain) you could maybe find in legends mode, written in a paper we carry around, which can be found by other adventurers.
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 02, 2015, 11:09:05 am
I've got plenty of questions on my brain, but only three not related to the new release:
1. When do you plan to have children and spouses inherit noble positions from their dead parents/spouses? While it's convenient that I can get rid of the nobility with a single unfortunate accident, it sucks knowing that all the work you put into making your baron/count/duke some very nice rooms with very nice furniture will be for naught once they croak.
2. On a related note, do you have plans to make the children and spouses of nobles act like nobles? No, I'm not a masochist, why do you ask?
3. I know you said you'll be planning on hunting down bugs for a while, but what new features do you plan to work on next?
Inheritance is already a thing as of version 40.xx, but it depends on the nobel.
Check out world activation on the wiki for more info.
Post by: iceball3 on December 02, 2015, 11:14:30 am
It seems, primarily, 64 bit will permit almost arbitrarily large fortresses and almost arbitrarily large worlds with almost arbitrarily long histories and very large populations. Of course, there are the processing limitations on speed and whatnot, but people will be a lot less likely to hit the memory limits anyway now.
2. At what point do you intend to switch to 64bit and what kind of new features will this allow you to implement?
Post by: KaelGotDwarves on December 02, 2015, 12:07:10 pm
Toady: One of my biggest dreams as a modder would be the ability to lock the use of certain outfits and entity items to certain genders and positions (No men in dresses, royal guards/champions with unique outfits and weapons, different professions having preference for different outfits like priests). Would this be able to be added easily along with making clothes in various sizes for multi-creature forts?
Post by: Anonymax on December 02, 2015, 12:43:11 pm
if that happens i'll have to buy a 64bit pc just to play DFIt seems, primarily, 64 bit will permit almost arbitrarily large fortresses and almost arbitrarily large worlds with almost arbitrarily long histories and very large populations. Of course, there are the processing limitations on speed and whatnot, but people will be a lot less likely to hit the memory limits anyway now.
2. At what point do you intend to switch to 64bit and what kind of new features will this allow you to implement?
Post by: LordBaal on December 02, 2015, 01:38:38 pm
Most likely you just need to buy a 64 bits windows or install a 64 bits distro of linux and install more RAM (I recommend at least 8 for 64bit OS).
Post by: Pseudopuppet on December 02, 2015, 01:53:32 pm
Post by: Anonymax on December 02, 2015, 01:55:09 pm
Chances are you already posses one. The vast majority of current CPU's are 64bit, in fact from a few years it has been like that. What happens is that the 32 OS used to be/are more popular or commonly found.
Most likely you just need to buy a 64 bits windows or install a 64 bits distro of linux and install more RAM (I recommend at least 8 for 64bit OS).
thank you, I’ll start checking prices
Post by: LordBaal on December 02, 2015, 02:05:28 pm
When in doubt ask some friend that knows about computers for help. Or search on the internet. All you need to know is wich CPU you have.Chances are you already posses one. The vast majority of current CPU's are 64bit, in fact from a few years it has been like that. What happens is that the 32 OS used to be/are more popular or commonly found.
Most likely you just need to buy a 64 bits windows or install a 64 bits distro of linux and install more RAM (I recommend at least 8 for 64bit OS).
thank you, I’ll start checking prices
Post by: cochramd on December 02, 2015, 03:00:51 pm
Post by: Max™ on December 02, 2015, 03:30:51 pm
I'm sure I'll end up figuring out a workaround before this gets answered, but was this a deliberate change or a side effect of something else, and is it just one tag or am I going to have to hunt down several to "unfix" the "fix" there?
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 02, 2015, 03:35:36 pm
Are you going to revert the "no using materials from butchering sentients" adventurer rule, or at least make it ethics-dependant? If you DO make it depend on ethics, could outsiders be free to commit cannibalism?
Well, for now I'm gonna be making semi-megabeasts non-sentient in Adventurecraft, because this broke half the purpose of the majority of Wanderer's Friend derivatives.
Post by: Max™ on December 02, 2015, 03:49:51 pm
Also found various troll hide items scattered around in dorf forts (I notice those specifically because trolls have improved leather properties) so there's something we can do.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 02, 2015, 03:51:26 pm
There has to be a workaround somewhere because the main reason I didn't notice it last night was starting in a dorf run town with a tomb, so I just went down and butchered and crafted stuff from some of the dorf skeletons down there.
What heresy is this. How? D:
So far all I can think of is to just make semi-megabeast non-sentient. ;w;
Post by: GoblinCookie on December 02, 2015, 04:23:36 pm
2. On a related note, do you have plans to make the children and spouses of nobles act like nobles? No, I'm not a masochist, why do you ask?
What happens when some random price migrates to your fortress during the first year and then demands a royal bedroom? What if we got a dozen of them?
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 02, 2015, 04:30:14 pm
2. On a related note, do you have plans to make the children and spouses of nobles act like nobles? No, I'm not a masochist, why do you ask?
What happens when some random price migrates to your fortress during the first year and then demands a royal bedroom? What if we got a dozen of them?
You feed them to the royal dragon, clearly. -w-
Post by: cochramd on December 02, 2015, 04:58:39 pm
First, you ask yourself: "What's the worst thing that could happen if they all died in an unfortunate accident?". Second, you ask yourself: "Would that be worse than having to make room for all these bastards?"2. On a related note, do you have plans to make the children and spouses of nobles act like nobles? No, I'm not a masochist, why do you ask?
What happens when some random price migrates to your fortress during the first year and then demands a royal bedroom? What if we got a dozen of them?
Seriously, though, if the children and spouses of nobles start acting like nobles, then bedrooms will be our chief concern, since the whole family can just use the same throne room and dining room. It's not like Toady is cruel enough to make every member of a noble's family demand their own private dining room and throne room.
.....right?
Post by: Button on December 02, 2015, 05:21:44 pm
There has to be a workaround somewhere because the main reason I didn't notice it last night was starting in a dorf run town with a tomb, so I just went down and butchered and crafted stuff from some of the dorf skeletons down there.
What heresy is this. How? D:
So far all I can think of is to just make semi-megabeast non-sentient. ;w;
IIRC you've always* been able to butcher sentients, and make stuff from them; you just can't eat their flesh.
* for values of "always" which actually mean "since I started playing adventure mode in the early releases of 0.40.x"
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 02, 2015, 05:35:57 pm
Post by: Nahere on December 02, 2015, 05:51:19 pm
Derp. I could've sworn in DF2012, you couldn't butcher sentients at all unless you were starving. Then DF2014 changed that to universal butchery, and there was much rejoicing.This is correct. Notably, back in DF2012 if you found sapients that had already been butchered (say, in the lair of a night troll) you could eat it with no problems.
Post by: Max™ on December 02, 2015, 09:17:12 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 02, 2015, 09:31:22 pm
Yeah, I'm still playing around with it, but either goblin ethics are different enough or my interaction worked. Been too busy dancing to remember to test it on someone I hadn't marked.
Hmm. I wish it was possible to instead just make them unintelligent on death automatically.
Marking them with a "get in mah bellah" interaction seems silly.
Post by: Max™ on December 02, 2015, 10:24:37 pm
Eh, the only thing I find silly is that goblins are hit by this, I haven't tested elves, but they REALLY shouldn't be hit by it, as it is kinda one of their things.Yeah, I'm still playing around with it, but either goblin ethics are different enough or my interaction worked. Been too busy dancing to remember to test it on someone I hadn't marked.
Hmm. I wish it was possible to instead just make them unintelligent on death automatically.
Marking them with a "get in mah bellah" interaction seems silly.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 02, 2015, 10:43:15 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 02, 2015, 10:59:30 pm
Quote
I also fixed the older bug causing constructions to crash when placed over tree tiles.Woohoo, at last! Thank you Toady.
One less frustration to put up with while we focus on all the new ones.
:)
Post by: PTTG?? on December 03, 2015, 02:45:45 am
Is DF going casual on us now?
More seriously, are there plans to expand this system soon?
Post by: Amperzand on December 03, 2015, 02:47:21 am
Post by: Putnam on December 03, 2015, 02:48:12 am
Woah, I just noticed that there are tooltips in the craftdwarfshop->instruments/instrument pieces menu.
Is DF going casual on us now?
More seriously, are there plans to expand this system soon?
It is in the raws.
This allows for old, clunky systems like this:
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:SCP_294_DISPENSE_LIQUID_JUG] yeah turns out 294 is euclid, the hell
[NAME:Dispense liquid (jug)]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_J]
[REAGENT:container:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][HAS_TOOL_USE:LIQUID_CONTAINER][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:container]
[REACTION:SCP_294_DISPENSE_LIQUID_BUCKET]
[NAME:Dispense liquid (bucket)]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_B]
[REAGENT:container:1:BUCKET:NONE:NONE:NONE][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:container]
[REACTION:SCP_294_DISPENSE_LIQUID_BARREL]
[NAME:Dispense liquid (barrel)]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_SHIFT_B]
[REAGENT:container:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][FOOD_STORAGE_CONTAINER][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:container]
[REACTION:SCP_294_DISPENSE_LIQUID_FLASK]
[NAME:Dispense liquid (flask)]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_F]
[REAGENT:container:1:FLASK:NONE:NONE:NONE][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:container]
[REACTION:LUA_HOOK_SCP_294_SELECT_LIQUID_FOR_DISPENSING]
[NAME:Select liquid]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_S]
[REAGENT:anything:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][PRESERVE_REAGENT]
[PRODUCT:0:1:CHEESE:NONE:INORGANIC:TITANIUM_SCP]Where you'd just get 5 reactions ("dispense liquid (x)" followed by "select liquid")
to be this:
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:SCP_294_DISPENSE_LIQUID_JUG] yeah turns out 294 is euclid, the hell
[NAME:Jug]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_J]
[REAGENT:container:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][HAS_TOOL_USE:LIQUID_CONTAINER][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:container]
[CATEGORY:SCP_294_DISPENSE]
[CATEGORY_NAME:Dispense liquid into...] i am so in the honeymoon phase with these categories
[CATEGORY_DESCRIPTION:Various choices for containers to dispense the chosen liquid into.]
[CASTEGORY_KEY:CUSTOM_D]
[REACTION:SCP_294_DISPENSE_LIQUID_BUCKET]
[NAME:Bucket]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_V]
[REAGENT:container:1:BUCKET:NONE:NONE:NONE][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:container]
[CATEGORY:SCP_294_DISPENSE]
[REACTION:SCP_294_DISPENSE_LIQUID_BARREL]
[NAME:Barrel]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_L]
[REAGENT:container:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][FOOD_STORAGE_CONTAINER][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:container]
[CATEGORY:SCP_294_DISPENSE]
[REACTION:SCP_294_DISPENSE_LIQUID_FLASK]
[NAME:Flask]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_F]
[REAGENT:container:1:FLASK:NONE:NONE:NONE][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:container]
[CATEGORY:SCP_294_DISPENSE]
[REACTION:LUA_HOOK_SCP_294_SELECT_LIQUID_FOR_DISPENSING]
[NAME:Select liquid]
[BUILDING:SCP_294:CUSTOM_S]
[REAGENT:anything:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][PRESERVE_REAGENT]
[PRODUCT:0:1:CHEESE:NONE:INORGANIC:TITANIUM_SCP]
The workshop menu has two options: "Dispense liquid into..." and "Select liquid". "Dispense liquid into..." then opens a submenu containing "Jug", "Bucket", "Barrel" and "Flask".
it's so amazing
"Select liquid" is some DFHack wizardry you don't really need to know about to understand the UI setup.
Post by: WordsandChaos on December 03, 2015, 03:11:58 am
Post by: Amperzand on December 03, 2015, 04:30:18 am
Post by: Neonivek on December 03, 2015, 08:37:29 am
So I tried a Gila monster man and started underground (and I don't know how to navigate out of the underground)
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 03, 2015, 11:16:14 am
Incidentally, what does it take to make bows useful in adventure mode? They seem to unavoidably lock the player out of acting for a good five seconds whenever you shoot, while being remarkably ineffective.
I tend to stick to stealth when doing that. :V
Post by: Button on December 03, 2015, 12:35:11 pm
Post by: Mr S on December 03, 2015, 03:56:07 pm
Scholars stealing books from our libraries when they leave: intended, happy accident, or bug?
No, no. You just have to set the "Return to Library/Due Date" criteria with the Trade Liaison before allowing non fort scholars into your library. This is also where you set fines for overdue books. Slade crafts work well for this.
Rated D for Dorf.
Post by: spwndlove on December 04, 2015, 05:14:28 pm
Scholars stealing books from our libraries when they leave: intended, happy accident, or bug?
The same thing is happening in my fort. I assume that they're going to bring them back eventually...?
On a related note, is there a trick to getting scribes to copy written works in a library? My scribe isn't copying any works.
Here's an image of the entry for my library "The Golden Homes" in the Location menu (the other location is a tavern).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As you can see I have bookshelves, tables and chairs, writing material, and a scribe assigned.
I think the setup works generally because my scholar has filled numerous quires (many of which I have since bound into codicies). However, the scribe isn't copying any of them!
As you can see in the image above, I have "Total number of each to scribe" set to 2, so in my mind that should mean that the scribe has work to do until there are 2 copies of every work in the library? Is that not correct? If it is, does anyone know what I'm missing for the scribe to make copies?
The current scribe used to be the scholar that wrote most of the books/quires in my library, and he is a Talented Reader and a Novice Writer.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on December 04, 2015, 09:36:30 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 04, 2015, 11:43:27 pm
BTW, can you make a copy of a copy?Copy Of Copy Of New Text Document (132).txt
Post by: cochramd on December 05, 2015, 11:27:05 am
The current scribe used to be the scholar that wrote most of the books/quires in my library, and he is a Talented Reader and a Novice Writer.Well there's your problem; you can't expect a good author to mindlessly copy out his work over and over again! You need to assign someone useless like a potash maker to do the scribing.
Post by: Witty on December 05, 2015, 02:21:56 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on December 06, 2015, 02:06:50 am
Toady, there are certain Adventure Mode sites that are simply impossible to navigate due to lag, notably dwarven fortresses and goblin towers. Do you have any current plans to address this issue?He in fact hopes to add in crash bugs along with the lag.
Post by: Robsoie on December 07, 2015, 01:18:34 pm
While 34.11 and previous versions "spawned" sieges had often gob weapon masters, this does not happen in either df2014 or 42.x with the new "marching armies" of those versions and all the goblin sieges through the years i faced in any of my forts are always made of low skilled gob soldiers or recruits.
And considering they take 2/3 years to decide to come to your fortress in 42.01, it's important to note that the current dwarven military training can easily deliver a couple of legendary dwarves in only a couple of years by simply them sparring, transforming those gob sieges that were supposed to be threat a simple walk in the park when a single legendary dwarf can kill a dozen of those invading gobs by himself in no time.
So do you have plans to have gobs training their military skills in their dark sites the same as dwarves does in your fortress to get sieges challenging again ?
Post by: NJW2000 on December 07, 2015, 01:42:14 pm
You realise they're immortal, right? What would a dwarven weaponmaster look like after one thousand years of training? 8)
While 34.11 and previous versions "spawned" sieges had often gob weapon masters, this does not happen in either df2014 or 42.x with the new "marching armies" of those versions and all the goblin sieges through the years i faced in any of my forts are always made of low skilled gob soldiers or recruits.
And considering they take 2/3 years to decide to come to your fortress in 42.01, it's important to note that the current dwarven military training can easily deliver a couple of legendary dwarves in only a couple of years by simply them sparring, transforming those gob sieges that were supposed to be threat a simple walk in the park when a single legendary dwarf can kill a dozen of those invading gobs by himself in no time.
So do you have plans to have gobs training their military skills in their dark sites the same as dwarves does in your fortress to get sieges challenging again ?
Not criticising you, just saying that this could get quite fun quite quickly. Might even legitimatize danger rooms.
If he added stat gain physically two... gobbo weaponlords could tank out dragonfire.
Post by: Button on December 07, 2015, 02:01:45 pm
Also, did you take titan/megabeast worshippers into consideration when implementing the worship need & who you can build temples for?
Post by: Knight Otu on December 07, 2015, 02:57:48 pm
Also, did you take titan/megabeast worshippers into consideration when implementing the worship need & who you can build temples for?[/color]They should be good to go once they appear at your fortress.
Quote from: Rockphed...
Also, if we have people who worship a megabeast or titan in our fortress, will we be able to create a temple to said creature? If it invades, it could see the temple in its honor and either decide that it is a nice place to stick around, or just that since we worship it, it doesn't need to murder all our citizens.
...
Yeah, if you have a citizen that worships whatever, it is in the list. This'll matter most if you start to bring in outside people... you'd theoretically be able to set up a temple in your fort to the elven regional spirit if you've invited an elf to join up. Perhaps that should upset traditionalists, or any dwarves of good character.
Post by: Max™ on December 07, 2015, 03:14:26 pm
I encountered groups of human and dwarven astronomers and scholars and mathematicians hanging out on a hillside near the fort, there were a few soldiers nearby guarding them, which made it a real pain in my ass to try and feed off of them. They hung around talking some, just kinda hanging out quietly some, in little clusters of 2 to 5, before heading back inside the fort to the library.
Much like my previous encounter with a cheetah hunting an ibex, this looked like a really natural sort of behavior, astronomers hanging out on a hillside at night studying the stars, guards escorting them, I would not have been surprised to see a telescope set up out there if they existed.
Did you include anything to encourage this behavior, or expect something like it, whereby astronomers and philosophers and naturists and such actually go outside and observe their surroundings?
Post by: Robsoie on December 07, 2015, 05:48:44 pm
You realise they're immortal, right? What would a dwarven weaponmaster look like after one thousand years of training? 8)
Actually, he wouldn't look as insanely powerful as you think, because attributes have caps
Quote
Attributes are capped in Adventure mode and probably also in Dwarf mode. Those caps are governed by MENT_ATT_CAP_PERC and PHYS_ATT_CAP_PERC. By default the maximum attribute values (barring increases from vampirism and other interactions) are governed by the starting value as well as the median for that caste (that is the middle value in PHYS_ATT_RANGE, for example 1000 for most attributes for Dwarves). attribute_cap = starting_value + max {starting_value, median}
and for reference (gobs and most of every creatures use the default value) :
Quote
MENT_ATT_CAP_PERC
Default is 200. This means you can increase your attribute to 200% of its starting value (or the average value + your starting value if that is higher).
Quote
PHYS_ATT_CAP_PERCSo while logically powerful, a thousand year old ultra trained goblin wouldn't still be more unbeatable than your average long lived demigod or vampire-turned adventurer in adventure mode, but would still put a challenge to your fast learning legendary soldiers, what the currently weak soldiers gob unfortunately aren't able to.
Default is 200. This means you can increase your attribute to 200% of its starting value (or the average value + your starting value if that is higher).
Post by: Untelligent on December 07, 2015, 05:51:08 pm
Post by: Vattic on December 07, 2015, 07:35:53 pm
Personally I think it's stranger that your dwarves can become legendary in such a short time, and through training alone to boot.
While 34.11 and previous versions "spawned" sieges had often gob weapon masters, this does not happen in either df2014 or 42.x with the new "marching armies" of those versions and all the goblin sieges through the years i faced in any of my forts are always made of low skilled gob soldiers or recruits.
And considering they take 2/3 years to decide to come to your fortress in 42.01, it's important to note that the current dwarven military training can easily deliver a couple of legendary dwarves in only a couple of years by simply them sparring, transforming those gob sieges that were supposed to be threat a simple walk in the park when a single legendary dwarf can kill a dozen of those invading gobs by himself in no time.
So do you have plans to have gobs training their military skills in their dark sites the same as dwarves does in your fortress to get sieges challenging again ?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 07, 2015, 10:14:42 pm
I shouted my poetry outside the tavern in the rain but nobody came out to see me... :(
Post by: thvaz on December 08, 2015, 06:34:10 am
Personally I think it's stranger that your dwarves can become legendary in such a short time, and through training alone to boot.
While 34.11 and previous versions "spawned" sieges had often gob weapon masters, this does not happen in either df2014 or 42.x with the new "marching armies" of those versions and all the goblin sieges through the years i faced in any of my forts are always made of low skilled gob soldiers or recruits.
And considering they take 2/3 years to decide to come to your fortress in 42.01, it's important to note that the current dwarven military training can easily deliver a couple of legendary dwarves in only a couple of years by simply them sparring, transforming those gob sieges that were supposed to be threat a simple walk in the park when a single legendary dwarf can kill a dozen of those invading gobs by himself in no time.
So do you have plans to have gobs training their military skills in their dark sites the same as dwarves does in your fortress to get sieges challenging again ?
Training should have a limit in how it can improve military skill. After that, only real combat experience should matter.
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 08, 2015, 09:05:39 am
Post by: LordBaal on December 08, 2015, 09:10:20 am
Post by: Dirst on December 08, 2015, 09:30:46 am
By fixing the militia armor bug do you mean the old bug of them not wearing armor properly or something new? Does armor work fine now?The armor works just fine, and it always has. The problem is the dwarf who never learned to wear it properly :)
Post by: CharonM72 on December 08, 2015, 09:31:06 am
1. Currently, the coordinates output in the Legends.xml file for sites are very imprecise and can be off by a substantial amount from where the site actually is in-game. Is there a plan to remedy this? Like, accuracy to at least the tenths or hundredths place instead of to the ones place.
2. Region borders are not exported at all. Is there a plan to implement this?
Post by: Heretic on December 08, 2015, 12:06:56 pm
All we know that the most bugged game mode is generation of the world,especially in-game generation after retiring fortress and so on. I have seen bugs than alive dwarwes dying two or more times after retiring fortress(i meant without zombification) I have seen hostile to civ nobles that live in your fortress, that fighting with each other after unretirng and more and more...
Firstly about previos 40.24 version.
1. Will we ever have possibility to ask "What's happening?" or at least "to whom you serve?"in adventure mode?
2. I have seen a lot of loyalty cascade in adventure mode, for example than i rescued all merchants(about hubdred) from market and lord and some priests from temple, i created a band, captured hall. After it i leave the hall and one o priests that follows me tink that now he is lord... they started argue(i meant only speaking, it was in 40.24) and after hour IRL of shouting "I hear ... became a lord" they started a fight. After some point more and more merchants draws their knives... and after 10 minets IRL of fighting and about thousands pages of logs they killed my compainons and me. That's happened? In Legends i find only "Violent disagrement"
3.Is now any ingame method in adventure to understand to that faction nps belongs?
4.Why then you asked vampire about itelf in menu "ask about someone" he said : Vampire ... - it's me.
5. If you hear that army moving to settlement, how fast it will travel? Should you wait for weeks? For mounths?Will it come or not if you in settlement? Can player see how invaders capture the hall? Or it's only in abstract?
6. If you kill anyone you see in camp of marsing army, is it stop? Or enemies will load from absrtract to real and continue marsh after you leave camp?
Now about 42.xx
7.If i order "to wait" me for rescued that has no family, in fortress and after it retire adventurer and unretire fortress... will him/they asked to be migrants?
8.That reasons using mayor to accept this if fortress retired?
9.That i need to do to see negative effects of alchogol to dwarves in fortress mode? If i created a burrow with one barrel of any kind of wine/beer/etc will it work?
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 08, 2015, 12:25:59 pm
If the only events you're aware of are "bandits present in a camp" events, you'll have to spread the bandit events as a rumor, then the following screen should include the options to ask about the whereabouts of one of more people who are in change of that camp. Then you proceed to step two as usual, until the poor sap blurts out who their allies are.
Post by: Robsoie on December 08, 2015, 05:47:31 pm
edit : oops noticed that question was already asked a few posts before
Right now we can accept people into our fort and they will be sad being separated from loved ones. Will dwarves ever immigrate to our fortress to be with their families? Also, will dwarves ever emigrate from the fort for any reason?
Post by: Quarterblue on December 08, 2015, 08:22:17 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on December 08, 2015, 09:53:36 pm
Don't get me wrong, I love the new personality system, I just wish it was a little bit more connected to player input.
EDIT: And why do merchants bring unending torrents of blood? I really do not need salt water crocodile blood, fly ichor, polar bear blood, mule blood, pig blood, thrush blood, ant ichor, horse blood, fresh water crocodile blood, sea cucumber ichor, more horse blood, giant peach faced lovebird man blood, cow blood, more horse blood, brown bear blood, ant man ichor, gazelle blood, and blood blood. It's not like my resident vampire will drink it instead of the fresh stuff.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 08, 2015, 10:24:30 pm
Are games, recipes and gambling still on the table for this release cycle or are they going to be postponed to an undefined future date so as to make way for the incoming artifact cycle?Games and recipes were originally scheduled for the release after this one (Taverns Part 2). That seems to be not the case any more - gambling and legendary cupcakes requiring an economy to function properly and artifacts are more exciting because magic dorfs - but, yes would be nice to know if we'll see some simplified version of games in the near future or if it's off for a few years yet.
Post by: Quarterblue on December 09, 2015, 05:27:36 am
Games and recipes were originally scheduled for the release after this one (Taverns Part 2). That seems to be not the case any more - gambling and legendary cupcakes requiring an economy to function properly and artifacts are more exciting because magic dorfs - but, yes would be nice to know if we'll see some simplified version of games in the near future or if it's off for a few years yet.
You don't need to set up an entire economy framework for recipes and games. Recipes are basically cooking forms (like music forms or poetry forms), and games don't need to have gambling associated to it.
Post by: Amperzand on December 09, 2015, 05:29:15 am
I just wish dwarves took better care of themselves. I have a temple to Iwo and name-brand temple and I still have a large number of dwarves upset because they haven't prayed recently. I have lots of jobs, but dwarves still just go for the closest one, instead of choosing to take jobs that fit their personalities better.
Don't get me wrong, I love the new personality system, I just wish it was a little bit more connected to player input.
EDIT: And why do merchants bring unending torrents of blood? I really do not need salt water crocodile blood, fly ichor, polar bear blood, mule blood, pig blood, thrush blood, ant ichor, horse blood, fresh water crocodile blood, sea cucumber ichor, more horse blood, giant peach faced lovebird man blood, cow blood, more horse blood, brown bear blood, ant man ichor, gazelle blood, and blood blood. It's not like my resident vampire will drink it instead of the fresh stuff.
Personally I enjoy it more when they bring me entire barrels of sentient tears. Seriously guys, what are you doing with a barrel of Gremlin Tears?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 09, 2015, 07:20:15 am
Yes, you and I may think like that but...some people...lapse into multiple year strange moods when they start down certain paths and only they know best what might trigger such a reaction. Besides, magic dorfs.Games and recipes were originally scheduled for the release after this one (Taverns Part 2). That seems to be not the case any more - gambling and legendary cupcakes requiring an economy to function properly and artifacts are more exciting because magic dorfs - but, yes would be nice to know if we'll see some simplified version of games in the near future or if it's off for a few years yet.
You don't need to set up an entire economy framework for recipes and games. Recipes are basically cooking forms (like music forms or poetry forms), and games don't need to have gambling associated to it.
Post by: Nopenope on December 09, 2015, 08:15:31 am
Post by: Dirst on December 09, 2015, 09:55:30 am
Quote from: Toady One
I reduced the severity of syndromes from ingested spatter (which should stop self-cleaning cats spattered with alcohol from getting sick all the time).
You say that like it was a bad thing.
Post by: 0rion on December 09, 2015, 03:13:22 pm
Post by: Dirst on December 09, 2015, 03:46:24 pm
Did Toady ever speak about making multi-tile creatures ? In a near or far future ?Yes. Yes.
(Definitely not in the immediate future, unless Toady is packing a whopper of a surprise for us.)
Post by: Knight Otu on December 09, 2015, 03:56:52 pm
Post by: Inarius on December 09, 2015, 04:27:46 pm
Unless he makes a surprise, or is interested by the subject (as he already told about it some time ago) and decide to push it further in the next release, or later can do the "Trade & Caravan& Economy" without it, then it will be only in 2017 or 2018. Sometimes you can have big surprises, and things which should be minor becomes the biggest part of the release ! Or, if you are waiting for something specific, you can be disapointed not seeing it arrive.
That's the rule with DF.
Post by: Knight Otu on December 09, 2015, 04:39:23 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 09, 2015, 05:09:33 pm
Post by: 0rion on December 09, 2015, 05:55:02 pm
Definitely not in the next few feature releases - those will (most likely) be the Artifact and the Starting Scenario sections (maybe with the skipped part of the Tavern section inserted somewhere between). Then boats and multi-tile creatures could be the "fifth" section of the dev page (and they have some strong competition like economy work or thief role work).
I didn't know that there would be ships. These would be some sort of caravans I imagine ? I hardly imagine my dwarves building a ship going nowhere but near the fortress...
Also what is the "skipped part of the Tavern section" you mentionned ?
Post by: monk12 on December 09, 2015, 06:40:32 pm
Definitely not in the next few feature releases - those will (most likely) be the Artifact and the Starting Scenario sections (maybe with the skipped part of the Tavern section inserted somewhere between). Then boats and multi-tile creatures could be the "fifth" section of the dev page (and they have some strong competition like economy work or thief role work).
I didn't know that there would be ships. These would be some sort of caravans I imagine ? I hardly imagine my dwarves building a ship going nowhere but near the fortress...
Also what is the "skipped part of the Tavern section" you mentionned ?
Ships will probably start as accessories to trade, but I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of naval army/combat system is added at the same time.
The skipped bits of the Tavern section include recipes, drink quality, games and gambling, and "Set Prices/Activities." You can find this on the development page here (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), along with other tantalizing details about what is entailed by the imminent Artifacts and Starting Scenarios development.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 09, 2015, 06:46:48 pm
Are there any plans to bring back the idea of DF2012-style quests? As it stands, when discussing "army on the march" and "abducted child" rumors, the player is given the option to talk the other person into joining to escape or aid in a rescue mission, respectively.
Maybe beast, camp, and town harassment rumors could yield the option to offer to deal with the problem, starting it as a quest? Logically, the "agreements" section of the Quest log might be the best place to record and track agreements to exterminate bandits or beasts.
Post by: CypherLH on December 09, 2015, 07:09:15 pm
Quote
Ships will probably start as accessories to trade, but I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of naval army/combat system is added at the same time.
The skipped bits of the Tavern section include recipes, drink quality, games and gambling, and "Set Prices/Activities." You can find this on the development page here (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), along with other tantalizing details about what is entailed by the imminent Artifacts and Starting Scenarios development.
Adventure Mode will be TRULY amazing once some more of the development arcs are completed. I'm looking forward to being an actual Pirate, Fortune & Glory Archaeologist, Merchant Baron, and the like, in an actual simulated fantasy world. It feels a lot closer after the last couple releases, the bones of it are coming together, just needs a lot of fleshing out and bug fixes. Even in the current release I'm already in awe of what Toady has accomplished. You can stand in the middle of a typical town and watch the hustle and bustle, visit the rowdy Tavern, get yelled at by peddlers in the Market, delve into the sewers for adventure, etc. But its still just a pale shadow of where its headed if you look at some of the coming dev arcs.
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 09, 2015, 07:32:51 pm
Post by: Tugagon on December 10, 2015, 12:00:08 pm
Post by: SMASH! on December 10, 2015, 12:57:51 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on December 10, 2015, 04:01:25 pm
Post by: WillowLuman on December 10, 2015, 04:28:53 pm
Now you've gotten creating world unique instruments under your belt, could this lead to other unique tools and items such as some forms of weaponry?
How soon do you think we'll be seeing multi-part weapons?
Post by: Knight Otu on December 10, 2015, 04:30:50 pm
Now you've gotten creating world unique instruments under your belt, could this lead to other unique tools and items such as some forms of weaponry?Definitely. There actually already are "random" weapons for spoiler entities, not that they have any variance yet, but Toady definitely plans more randomized content.
I bet weapons are to exacting to be rng'ed up.I doubt it. The main problem right now is that there isn't much to vary for random weapons (and even less so for other items), as I've noticed in my random entity creature script. The main difficulty would be the "exposition" I guess.
How do you test new features? Do you make them in various separated prototypes and then add them to the game?Yes, Toady mentioned that a few times. The multi-tile creature tests were a separate prototype from what I remember, and I think the new needs system also started its life as such a prototype. (I'm not sure if the myth generator Toady experimented with counts as a prototype in your sense, since it apparently just generates the mythological background without the appropriate in-game content).
Post by: PTTG?? on December 10, 2015, 05:09:12 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 10, 2015, 05:20:51 pm
Post by: Evrett33 on December 10, 2015, 06:44:01 pm
Post by: thvaz on December 10, 2015, 07:06:32 pm
Will the amount of food that can be fairly effortlessly gathered off the surface from trees and bushes be nerfed a bit to help food/drink resource management not feel so trivial?
I don't think it will be nerfed. What may happen is that unprocessed food may soon not be as nutritious as processed food, or different foods may have different value of nutrition, so to feed a meal to a dwarf you may need one bread, or 2 plump helmets, or 5 apples, for example.
Post by: Amperzand on December 10, 2015, 07:41:31 pm
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on December 10, 2015, 09:36:25 pm
THEY DO NOT KNOW THE HORROR OF THE BOATMURDERED
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 10, 2015, 09:37:37 pm
Wait, that's the norm. o3o
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on December 10, 2015, 10:02:49 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on December 10, 2015, 10:06:46 pm
I bet weapons are to exacting to be rng'ed up.I doubt it. The main problem right now is that there isn't much to vary for random weapons (and even less so for other items), as I've noticed in my random entity creature script. The main difficulty would be the "exposition" I guess.
Exposition would defiantly be the load bearing feature. If you take thing like, swords or spears or hammers, as simply descriptive instead of prescriptive, the game could just generate us some very broad, dull "swords" that'll use the sword skills, but they're maces or hammers. If we get abstracted description of the sword that might help us? But unlike musical instruments, where its mostly abstraction, for combat there a fair bit of simulation.
Eventually the playerbase would learn what the descriptor mean for weapons, and we'll be able to tell when it give us fat swords or light hammers.
Post by: Amperzand on December 10, 2015, 10:43:18 pm
I bet weapons are to exacting to be rng'ed up.I doubt it. The main problem right now is that there isn't much to vary for random weapons (and even less so for other items), as I've noticed in my random entity creature script. The main difficulty would be the "exposition" I guess.
Exposition would defiantly be the load bearing feature. If you take thing like, swords or spears or hammers, as simply descriptive instead of prescriptive, the game could just generate us some very broad, dull "swords" that'll use the sword skills, but they're maces or hammers. If we get abstracted description of the sword that might help us? But unlike musical instruments, where its mostly abstraction, for combat there a fair bit of simulation.
Eventually the playerbase would learn what the descriptor mean for weapons, and we'll be able to tell when it give us fat swords or light hammers.
Certainly I think the majority of the weapons would have to remain unprocedural, but perhaps each civ could have a "Signature weapon" of sorts.
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 11, 2015, 06:32:12 pm
Post by: Amperzand on December 11, 2015, 06:39:28 pm
Post by: Verdant_Squire on December 11, 2015, 06:44:00 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 11, 2015, 06:52:06 pm
Right now, human villages aren't very interesting when compared to their towns, who now have several different types of buildings. Are there any plans to expand the buildings available to the smaller sites, so that we can perhaps see the occasional small inn, shop, or shrine in them?
The funny thing to me is that, while towns are more interesting than hamlets overall, the mead halls are more interesting than keeps. Keeps seem to never have supplies to take.
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 11, 2015, 06:54:40 pm
You'd think the reverse would make sense, wouldn't you.I JUST WANT TO GROW PIG TAILS YEAR ROUND WITHOUT FEELING LIKE I'M CHEATING
Post by: Dirst on December 11, 2015, 07:37:21 pm
You could mod shearable tails onto pigs... :)You'd think the reverse would make sense, wouldn't you.I JUST WANT TO GROW PIG TAILS YEAR ROUND WITHOUT FEELING LIKE I'M CHEATING
Post by: King Mir on December 11, 2015, 08:07:47 pm
...honestly, which is more filling? Most people... don't eat elephant hearts.What's wrong with elephant hearts? I mean there's conservation issues, sure. But all that solid muscle is probably tasty. Better than small chicken hearts you can buy.
The point is of course the size. An elephant heart is a bit bigger than a leaf of lettuce.
Post by: PTTG?? on December 11, 2015, 09:25:59 pm
...honestly, which is more filling? Most people... don't eat elephant hearts.What's wrong with elephant hearts? I mean there's conservation issues, sure. But all that solid muscle is probably tasty. Better than small chicken hearts you can buy.
Where do you think they get popcorn chicken?
Post by: Ves on December 11, 2015, 09:34:39 pm
Post by: Nopenope on December 12, 2015, 07:24:27 am
Post by: Ysyua on December 12, 2015, 07:57:17 am
I wouldn't mind seeing something like the current system for instruments for weapons. Could have differently sized weapons that may or may not require multiple parts or be a construction. It would make things like large stationary mechanical arbalests just as likely as fist-mounted morningstars. Skills could be weapon-type based I guess. A master uristsword user Master Small Bladed Weapon User or whatever.I bet weapons are to exacting to be rng'ed up.I doubt it. The main problem right now is that there isn't much to vary for random weapons (and even less so for other items), as I've noticed in my random entity creature script. The main difficulty would be the "exposition" I guess.
Exposition would defiantly be the load bearing feature. If you take thing like, swords or spears or hammers, as simply descriptive instead of prescriptive, the game could just generate us some very broad, dull "swords" that'll use the sword skills, but they're maces or hammers. If we get abstracted description of the sword that might help us? But unlike musical instruments, where its mostly abstraction, for combat there a fair bit of simulation.
Eventually the playerbase would learn what the descriptor mean for weapons, and we'll be able to tell when it give us fat swords or light hammers.
The Solonurist is a medium hand-held projectile weapon. It fires ålaths slowly but powerfully. It is made of a wood stock and metal string. It requires mechanisms. Uses the x projectile weapon skill.
The Uristotad is a small fist-mounted multi-blade weapon. Its blades extend mechanically. It is made from a bone mount and metal blades. It requires mechanisms. Uses the y fist-mounted weapon skill.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 12, 2015, 11:28:55 am
That's been my big pet peeve with the instruments. All of them could easily be given a name and adjective that sums them up by comparing them to a real-world instrument, because they're all built with real-world properties in mind. So I can never tell what the hell I'm looking at unless I go into the item description, when at a bare minimum the skill used and thus the instrument class (percussion, wind, string, etc) should be obvious at a glance.
Post by: therahedwig on December 12, 2015, 02:00:26 pm
Bleh. I'd rather not have the WEAPONS use the random gibberish names. <.<I think Toady has said several times he wants to get to the point of random generation slider, where we can either choose between 100% raw stuff or 100% generated alien world. I think the instruments were mostly a case of flexing the fingers for this then, and we'll get violin raws in the future.
That's been my big pet peeve with the instruments. All of them could easily be given a name and adjective that sums them up by comparing them to a real-world instrument, because they're all built with real-world properties in mind. So I can never tell what the hell I'm looking at unless I go into the item description, when at a bare minimum the skill used and thus the instrument class (percussion, wind, string, etc) should be obvious at a glance.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 12, 2015, 02:09:10 pm
Post by: Amperzand on December 12, 2015, 04:50:22 pm
(*) Made training marksdwarves want both combat and training ammunition and fetch stacks appropriately (thanks to ag for analyzing this one)
o0o
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on December 12, 2015, 06:52:55 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 12, 2015, 07:01:23 pm
In DFTalk #14 (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_14_transcript.html), you mention Werebeast-generation using the same selection of creatures as Forgotten Beast-generation, hence monstrosities like Weremaggots. It doesn't seem to have worked out that way, with a more mammalian/reptilian/real-world-based selection, and even wolves seemingly excluded from the pool. Will this change anytime soon?
Strange, I've seen a werewolf before. Granted, only once, but still.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on December 12, 2015, 07:21:58 pm
That's good to know. It must just be the odds. I've never seen one, not even in the Arena.In DFTalk #14 (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_14_transcript.html), you mention Werebeast-generation using the same selection of creatures as Forgotten Beast-generation, hence monstrosities like Weremaggots. It doesn't seem to have worked out that way, with a more mammalian/reptilian/real-world-based selection, and even wolves seemingly excluded from the pool. Will this change anytime soon?
Strange, I've seen a werewolf before. Granted, only once, but still.
Bleh. I'd rather not have the WEAPONS use the random gibberish names. <.<Aw.... :(
Imagine all the cool things you could get from invaders.
Don't you want your Dwarves marching into battle wielding Durfufujubakuses and clad in Kleejuses?
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 12, 2015, 07:23:16 pm
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on December 12, 2015, 07:26:08 pm
Hush, or you'll be neck-deep in werekobolds. o3oThere's an idea. With a bit of DFHackery, you could have them spout random, unintelligible taunts.
D'aawwwwwww!
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 12, 2015, 07:35:58 pm
Post by: Max™ on December 12, 2015, 08:20:30 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 12, 2015, 08:22:28 pm
*you're dropped out of fast travel*
*an alert pops up*
Kilishreembus!
Ah, the nostalgia.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 12, 2015, 08:45:38 pm
I also miss quests. ;w;
Post by: therahedwig on December 12, 2015, 09:08:15 pm
I miss that shit, yeah.
I also miss quests. ;w;
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=154579.msg6660840#msg6660840 this bodes well then.
Post by: Silverybearded on December 13, 2015, 01:31:03 am
*game suddenly stops*Care to explain for those who haven't been around since the forging of time?
*you're dropped out of fast travel*
*an alert pops up*
Kilishreembus!
Ah, the nostalgia.
Post by: Nopenope on December 13, 2015, 01:42:37 am
Here's a way to generate such gibberish, for the record (taken from the wiki (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Utilities#Kobold_name_generator)):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Silverybearded on December 13, 2015, 07:22:12 am
Post by: thvaz on December 13, 2015, 10:55:54 am
It is impossible to know how to build good reputation with a entity just following rumors. Killing bandits harassing a hamlet cause people to call you a killer. Kill a vampire and people will call you murderer.
Post by: jaked122 on December 13, 2015, 12:08:21 pm
Are there any plans to expand upon the information given about books, poems, music, etc?
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 13, 2015, 01:11:26 pm
Do you plan to come back with quests or assignments in adventure mode in any way?
This. Hell yes. I asked exactly this and suggested a few ideas how how it could work, at least UI-wise, a page or two ago.
Post by: thvaz on December 13, 2015, 01:19:46 pm
Or you could be a legendary singer and have people love you for a purely positive action ]
It's impossible to be a hero just singing.
Post by: Silverybearded on December 13, 2015, 07:25:23 pm
The dwarven language does not know the word "impossible".Or you could be a legendary singer and have people love you for a purely positive action ]
It's impossible to be a hero just singing.
Maybe you're not trying hard enough.
Post by: Max™ on December 13, 2015, 08:02:53 pm
*her lips crack, and a gravelly voice begins to croak out as chunks of frozen vomit fall to the floor from her long double braided beard*
TOADY! Did ye' fix the random bard-and-poet-murderin'?
I mean, yes, it is more fitting for people to show up and perform and hang out and socialize without biting each other to death while shanking their neighbors... but dang.
Edit:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 13, 2015, 10:09:50 pm
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on December 14, 2015, 01:33:01 am
Will settled dwarves ever leave the fortress for any reason? Like, say, an accused vampire fleeing justice? Or your dwarves fleeing a tyrannical overseer?
Toady has talked about emigration before. It will be added at some point, probably after player fortresses can interact with hillocks, which will be possible after the starting scenarios update. Dwarves will leave the fortress if they are unhappy.
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 14, 2015, 03:02:59 pm
Now that we have dwarves suffocating on their own vomit, will there ever be some kind of dwarven CPR or other advanced medical procedures?
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 14, 2015, 03:07:44 pm
Okay, well
Now that we have dwarves suffocating on their own vomit, will there ever be some kind of dwarven CPR or other advanced medical procedures?
A basic "first aid performed by whoever decides to haul the dwarf to the hospital" would likely be simpler to implement. o3o
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on December 14, 2015, 05:15:43 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 14, 2015, 05:44:38 pm
Sounds quite dorfy to me. o3o
Post by: therahedwig on December 14, 2015, 06:15:44 pm
Post by: Kiloku on December 15, 2015, 06:29:46 am
Post by: Rose on December 15, 2015, 07:47:14 am
Post by: LordBaal on December 15, 2015, 08:02:04 am
I don't have the patience or willingness to suffer such pests to find out in one of my forts.
Post by: Kiloku on December 15, 2015, 08:58:35 am
They already can, as far as I know.
When they settle in your fort, the military ones can only be members (not leaders) of squads, and they can't be assigned labors, they only do the job they offered initially (entertainer/scholar/religious figure)
Post by: vjmdhzgr on December 15, 2015, 10:27:50 pm
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on December 16, 2015, 03:05:30 pm
Not quite. I have heard of a "long-term resident", such as those you describe, becoming actual residents, and thus behaving just the same as your own dwarves.They already can, as far as I know.
When they settle in your fort, the military ones can only be members (not leaders) of squads, and they can't be assigned labors, they only do the job they offered initially (entertainer/scholar/religious figure)
Post by: Devin on December 17, 2015, 05:13:41 pm
The question's inspired by a thread on the suggestion board where everyone seems to think it's a good idea. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=154685.0) Hopefully just making them go hostile or maybe hostile and trying to escape would be workable to implement.
Post by: Fniff on December 17, 2015, 07:01:36 pm
I say that, because I like the music of Dwarf Fortress (I think the Fortress theme really summarizes the main theme of the game: Histories of Greed and Labor) and I like symmetry. :D
Post by: PTTG?? on December 17, 2015, 08:42:56 pm
Will there ever be an Adventurer Mode theme?
I say that, because I like the music of Dwarf Fortress (I think the Fortress theme really summarizes the main theme of the game: Histories of Greed and Labor) and I like symmetry. :D
Open the game and check again.
Post by: Putnam on December 17, 2015, 09:59:41 pm
Will there ever be an Adventurer Mode theme?
I say that, because I like the music of Dwarf Fortress (I think the Fortress theme really summarizes the main theme of the game: Histories of Greed and Labor) and I like symmetry. :D
Open the game and check again.
? there's still only two songs, the title and the dwarf mode
Post by: Ysyua on December 17, 2015, 10:01:45 pm
Will there ever be an Adventurer Mode theme?
I say that, because I like the music of Dwarf Fortress (I think the Fortress theme really summarizes the main theme of the game: Histories of Greed and Labor) and I like symmetry. :D
Open the game and check again.
? there's still only two songs, the title and the dwarf mode
I think he's referring to the fact that the title tagline changes. The "Histories of X and Y" thing.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on December 17, 2015, 10:17:04 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 17, 2015, 10:34:39 pm
Post by: Putnam on December 18, 2015, 01:42:43 am
Will there ever be an Adventurer Mode theme?
I say that, because I like the music of Dwarf Fortress (I think the Fortress theme really summarizes the main theme of the game: Histories of Greed and Labor) and I like symmetry. :D
Open the game and check again.
? there's still only two songs, the title and the dwarf mode
I think he's referring to the fact that the title tagline changes. The "Histories of X and Y" thing.
X is always a synonym of "greed" and Y a synonym of "labor".
Post by: Silverybearded on December 18, 2015, 02:22:06 am
There is only one fitting song for Dwarf Fortress, in either mode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjZ1B897Tuk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjZ1B897Tuk)What about these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlGw8QJC2-w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlGw8QJC2-w)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWz0qVvBZ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWz0qVvBZ0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBZ3Uw3fabo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBZ3Uw3fabo)
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 18, 2015, 10:58:18 am
Post by: Ysyua on December 18, 2015, 08:21:24 pm
What are the conditions for long-term residents being granted citizenship? Is this feature currently bugged?
The devlog for the 42.01 release says that there is "eventual" citizenship petitions. Does it simply take a long time?
E: missed a word
Post by: Toady One on December 18, 2015, 10:38:40 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 18, 2015, 10:45:23 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 19, 2015, 12:22:33 am
This bodes unwell. owoYeah, anyone know what this means?
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 19, 2015, 12:38:48 am
(probably busted, posted in the thread)
Can someone give toady a save with that?
I would but no fort going right now, last one fell into chaos.
like the guy asking in this thread.
Post by: iceball3 on December 19, 2015, 04:43:18 am
Granted, this is a dev arc that is likely much further down the line, if any, so i can understand if the answer is undecisive or just neither.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 19, 2015, 04:47:19 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 19, 2015, 04:51:26 am
That's not very likely to happen unless we get some hint of what the conditions are that should result in someone petitioning for citizenship.(probably busted, posted in the thread)
Can someone give toady a save with that?
I would but no fort going right now, last one fell into chaos.
like the guy asking in this thread.
Post by: Ysyua on December 19, 2015, 10:11:16 am
From the other thread:That's not very likely to happen unless we get some hint of what the conditions are that should result in someone petitioning for citizenship.(probably busted, posted in the thread)
Can someone give toady a save with that?
I would but no fort going right now, last one fell into chaos.
like the guy asking in this thread.
It's only supposed to take a few years if they are happy, so something seems to be going on. Of course, it tested out fine, as usual, but that's never stopped it from being totally broken. A bug report on the tracker coupled with a dffd save with some stale happy non-citizen-petitioning long-term residents will probably allow me to patch this up quickly.So you need residents who have been around for a few years with their needs reasonably satisfied.
Post by: Bumber on December 19, 2015, 04:02:38 pm
Post by: Ysyua on December 19, 2015, 04:56:06 pm
According to the Mantis change log, it's now been fixed.All hail the Toad!
Post by: Liamar on December 20, 2015, 05:44:14 pm
It would be amazing to be able to play a long game as a successful, god-like, adamantium-clad Necromancer, and then try to defeat him as another adventurer or try to survive the onslaught of his undead armies and raised legendary companions in fortress mode.
Being able to affect fortress mode with adventure mode actions and vice-versa would bring out the soul of this magnificent game.
Post by: Putnam on December 20, 2015, 08:25:39 pm
i think that's possible
Post by: Liamar on December 22, 2015, 05:22:34 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 22, 2015, 06:54:44 pm
But will that actually have that functionality? Will my Necromancer "control" that tower and invade my fort with his undead armies, or will he come alone if at all?
You can't take over the tower, no. It seems in early DF2014 you could conquer bandit camps, and I assume you could do the same to towers back then. But now only hamlets or towns can be taken over.
You can ask to join their group I think, so THAT might work.
Post by: Rose on December 23, 2015, 08:36:47 am
Post by: cochramd on December 23, 2015, 05:47:44 pm
Post by: SimRobert2001 on December 23, 2015, 06:35:56 pm
The biggest siege I've ever gotten in 42.03 was 120. However, all the sieges after it were smaller, even though my fortress continued to get wealthier. Is this a bug?
The Goblins could be running out of population.
Post by: cochramd on December 23, 2015, 07:18:04 pm
How do I check for this possibility? Legends mode?The biggest siege I've ever gotten in 42.03 was 120. However, all the sieges after it were smaller, even though my fortress continued to get wealthier. Is this a bug?
The Goblins could be running out of population.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on December 24, 2015, 01:36:35 am
Would this also mean dwarfs would need to learn how to craft certain items either from their master or reading it from a book/scroll, thinking that scholars would be able to study weapons and other objects and come up with a detailed design of it then that could be given to another dwarf to try and then think of a way to craft it.
Post by: Nopenope on December 24, 2015, 09:06:48 pm
Post by: Silverybearded on December 25, 2015, 03:33:37 am
How was the lutefisk?From Toady's blog:
Quote
I have only now regained the ability to speak. It was more like fish cartilage than fish jello this time. We all survived.
Post by: Neonivek on December 25, 2015, 11:52:08 am
Playing a Elephant Man sounds awesome.
Post by: Amperzand on December 25, 2015, 02:46:38 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 25, 2015, 03:22:18 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 25, 2015, 05:10:32 pm
Oh good god giant elephants are going to be fun. I predict the Elves use them as war-mounts.
Elephants are so large its impractical enough to keep them grazing reliably without throwing them into a cage periodically, certainly looking forward to future capabilities of speedy hunting companion giant elephants for all purposes.
Would giant elephants be large enough to qualify to be multi tile? (vertically above one layer but structurally the same) and would any of the multi-tile animals/creatures/mega-beasts/other relate to what your dwarves at ground level can reach? (unable to sever very much other than the legs of a bronze colossus for instance, without crippling it or gaining elevation?) or would it work normally?
What next, giant elephant werebeast night creatures?
Post by: reality.auditor on December 25, 2015, 06:37:01 pm
Quote
now we've got giant and person versions for most of the original animals. The newer animals from the sponsorship drive came with those forms, but we never did have giant elephants and various large bears and all the great cat people and so forth.
Uh, oh. I hope Toady did something to appearing frequency of humanoid animals - there were A LOT of complaints that whatever-mens clog up map entirely leaving no space for normal wildlife.
Would giant elephants be large enough to qualify to be multi tile?
Multitile creatures will not happen any time soon. Those giant elephants will be one-tile - like already existing gigantic monsters like bronze collosuses, dragons, forgotten beasts etc.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 25, 2015, 06:49:01 pm
In case it has not yet sunk in: DOOOOOOOOOOOM.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 25, 2015, 07:19:08 pm
Well.
In case it has not yet sunk in: DOOOOOOOOOOOM.
All the more reason to train your huntsdwarves in the art of the chainsaw. Rip and teeeaaar.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 25, 2015, 07:49:54 pm
Would giant elephants be large enough to qualify to be multi tile?
Multitile creatures will not happen any time soon. Those giant elephants will be one-tile - like already existing gigantic monsters like bronze collosuses, dragons, forgotten beasts etc.
I probably should have rephrased that to question whether all creatures based on large size will have a rehaul and rebranding as 'multi-tile' once they exceed a certain size. If we are doing math on the exact size of layers in comparison to existing animals that is.
Post by: reality.auditor on December 26, 2015, 08:37:25 am
I probably should have rephrased that to question whether all creatures based on large size will have a rehaul and rebranding as 'multi-tile' once they exceed a certain size. If we are doing math on the exact size of layers in comparison to existing animals that is.If/when Toady introduces multi-tile creatures, I guess they will be reworked by hand. I already can imagine it will be horrible pain in ass, and probably enemies digging/destroying tiles would have to be introduced earlier, unless you want big monsters stucked harmlessly on smallest obstacle.
I mean, you probably could introduce some automation (if size is between x1 and x2, tile size 2x2x2, if...then tile size 3x3x3, if size is that and it is FLAT monster, then 2x2x1 etc), but many creatures would have distinct shape (giant snakes, anyone? 1x3x1) and behaviour (again, giant snakes will move and change direction differently than standard gigantic monster) that you would have to describe in raws. And don't get me started on neccessity of describing what body parts are on what tile...
I think multi-tile monsters (and any interactions of them with everything else in game - in world generation, fortress and adventure mode) alone will be one major release, so about 1 year. This is how much hassle they will be.
Post by: Silverybearded on December 26, 2015, 01:50:34 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 26, 2015, 02:23:36 pm
Great. Now all I can think of is a trail of "S"s which gain one S every time it eats a dwarf.
[NO_BRAKES][DIES_ON_COLLIDE]
Post by: Amperzand on December 26, 2015, 03:59:55 pm
Some quick legends-trawling:
"Drinkis", Female Kobold. {Like Sankis, but even drunker and a kobold?}
"Stinkus", Male Kobold. {Really, game?}
"Beeris", Female Kobold.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 26, 2015, 06:40:17 pm
Great. Now all I can think of is a trail of "S"s which gain one S every time it eats a dwarf.
[NO_BRAKES][DIES_ON_COLLIDE]
My apple storage has been decimated. I have nothing left to brew with since that giant kingsnake slithered in, my dwarves are cutting off the sections but it just keeps getting longer.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 27, 2015, 12:51:24 am
Toady, did you delete creature_savage_tropical on purpose? >_>
Post by: Toady One on December 27, 2015, 01:07:57 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 27, 2015, 01:42:38 am
(it only had the big cats and a scorpion -- big cats are in their proper files now, and I mentioned the scorpion in the change log, it'll be back)
As I discovered afterward. I done derped, sorry about that.
In that case, minor question. Any plans regarding whether that delicious brain-rotting venom will stay as the way it is?
Post by: Naryar on December 27, 2015, 11:50:20 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 27, 2015, 12:00:46 pm
Post by: ArmokGoB on December 27, 2015, 05:54:13 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 27, 2015, 06:03:44 pm
Wait, Toady took out the GDS? Noooooooo!
Apparently it will be back someday. At least I hope it will be. ;w;
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 27, 2015, 06:06:11 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 27, 2015, 06:21:46 pm
You can put it back in?
The reason is that all those overgrown cats got moved into other files containing the normal and anthro versions, and giant desert scorpion is planned to be re-added, apparently with the addition of normal and anthro versions.
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 27, 2015, 06:22:25 pm
Will there ever be prisoners we can free in dungeons?
Will people ever commit crimes in worldgen?
Will we ever be able to find stolen children if they're anywhere besides in a dark fortress?
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on December 27, 2015, 10:08:13 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 27, 2015, 10:41:10 pm
Post by: SimRobert2001 on December 27, 2015, 10:50:46 pm
I'm pretty sure most vampires have hundreds if not thousands of sentient kills, though I don't know whether that's from the draining or the simple fact that they had 500 years to kill all those people.
The way it sounds, it could be the fact that they were draining/killing the people in a specific town, over and over. So, they would crank out those kills quickly. The problem is, those kills would deplete a town's population.
Also, as for zombies:
If i am reading it right, You did cure hte problem of zombie heads being to small to hit, right? Does a head even have a graps to spawn? WOuld a hand now be too small to hit?
Post by: Toady One on December 27, 2015, 11:04:13 pm
Post by: Thebestidentity on December 27, 2015, 11:16:54 pm
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 28, 2015, 12:05:55 am
Post by: Sizik on December 28, 2015, 12:20:46 am
Quote
Severing all non-smashed heads on a zombie kills it (smashing already worked), and severing or smashing any working grasp on a headless zombie kills it. Zombies can still be reanimated if they have a working grasp.So a normal human zombie will die if you cut it's head off, at which point it can be re-re-animated, then die if you cut an arm/hand off, can get re-re-re-animated, and then be permanently dead once you chop off the other arm?
Post by: thvaz on December 28, 2015, 12:40:59 am
The main problem with zombies was the fact that the AI didnt know how to deal with them. As an adventurer they werent so difficult. I think these solutions will work very well and make sense (a zombie shouldnt have any sense of self preservation after all)
Post by: Amperzand on December 28, 2015, 01:26:11 am
QuoteSevering all non-smashed heads on a zombie kills it (smashing already worked), and severing or smashing any working grasp on a headless zombie kills it. Zombies can still be reanimated if they have a working grasp.So a normal human zombie will die if you cut it's head off, at which point it can be re-re-animated, then die if you cut an arm/hand off, can get re-re-re-animated, and then be permanently dead once you chop off the other arm?
No, you need to cut off both arms. Happily, the limbs and head can then be reanimated separately.
Post by: Toady One on December 28, 2015, 01:31:34 am
Post by: Amperzand on December 28, 2015, 01:32:59 am
Post by: joeyshabidu on December 28, 2015, 10:48:42 am
On a related note, if you can advance time, it opens up the possibility to marry/create descendants. You could have things like family artifacts and hereditary attributes which would be pretty cool.
Post by: SirPenguin on December 28, 2015, 11:16:57 am
Undead have a lot of problems, but I thought the current "must-have-at-least-one-grasp" system was pretty clever. With all the other nerfs and changes I feel the grasp change isn't necessary, but hey, we'll see. Either way I'm glad to know the undead won't be the game-enders they are today
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 28, 2015, 01:16:10 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on December 28, 2015, 09:57:58 pm
Planned. Except maybe the hereditary attributes, besides what the genetics system gives the offspring from both parents. But yea, there plans to mary, and have offspring. Then play as your kid, don your old stuff and have at the world.
On a related note, if you can advance time, it opens up the possibility to marry/create descendants. You could have things like family artifacts and hereditary attributes which would be pretty cool.
Post by: cochramd on December 28, 2015, 10:35:53 pm
Post by: Button on December 28, 2015, 11:15:53 pm
Do kids play with imaginary friends now? Do said imaginary friends not show up on the relationships screen? Because there's a kid playing with "Orshetdanman", and I can't find any "Orshetdanman" in the fortress.
An artifact toy, perhaps?
Post by: cochramd on December 29, 2015, 09:43:24 am
Ah, yes, my 39600 dwarfbuck beak dog bone puzzlebox. I hope he's very happy to have the privilege of playing with such a toy.Do kids play with imaginary friends now? Do said imaginary friends not show up on the relationships screen? Because there's a kid playing with "Orshetdanman", and I can't find any "Orshetdanman" in the fortress.
An artifact toy, perhaps?
Post by: Silverybearded on December 29, 2015, 10:16:15 am
Alt+Numpad-15 = ☼Ah, yes, my 39600 dwarfbuck beak dog bone puzzlebox. I hope he's very happy to have the privilege of playing with such a toy.Do kids play with imaginary friends now? Do said imaginary friends not show up on the relationships screen? Because there's a kid playing with "Orshetdanman", and I can't find any "Orshetdanman" in the fortress.
An artifact toy, perhaps?
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 29, 2015, 10:43:56 am
Alt+Numpad-15 = ☼
Ah, but Dwarfbucks is a more dwarvenly thing to say than ☼ though.
Or Sols, which is what I assume the currency would be called if it used that symbol. Odd for an underground race. :V
Post by: NJW2000 on December 29, 2015, 11:10:19 am
Post by: Silverybearded on December 29, 2015, 12:36:46 pm
Post by: cochramd on December 29, 2015, 12:50:44 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 29, 2015, 01:38:04 pm
Post by: Silverybearded on December 29, 2015, 05:53:36 pm
Quote
I also fixed a bug that was causing reanimated undead to end up on two sides of conflicts (which caused further issues).Mistêm Nökorthunen, dwarven zombie was killed by the hands of Mistêm Nökorthunen severed right hand!
Post by: cochramd on December 29, 2015, 07:57:27 pm
Oh, what a pity it is that there wasn't case where an animated hand of one person was not killed by the animated other hand of a person. It would've been such an excellent opportunity to make a joke about how the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.QuoteI also fixed a bug that was causing reanimated undead to end up on two sides of conflicts (which caused further issues).Mistêm Nökorthunen, dwarven zombie was killed by the hands of Mistêm Nökorthunen severed right hand!
Now, on some more serious notes:
Currently, coins have a quality factor in their value. Given that the point of coins is that every coin of the same material is supposed to have the same value, doesn't this defeat the purpose of coins?
I'm currently in the practice of obsidian casting, and I know damned well that a fair number of the floors and walls I'm casting in aren't magma-safe, but they hold anyways. One day, you're going to have to fix the system so that walls and floors made out of non-magma safe materials won't hold magma, but in turn perhaps you should make it easier to construct a magma-proof room. For instance, when I order that stone blocks be made I could order that they be made of magma-safe stones.And when I go to build floors or walls, there could be a handy option to restrict myself to magma-safe materials. What are you going to do to these ends?
Post by: Button on December 29, 2015, 08:36:18 pm
Currently, coins have a quality factor in their value. Given that the point of coins is that every coin of the same material is supposed to have the same value, doesn't this defeat the purpose of coins?
Are you sure they have quality modifiers? They definitely didn't in 0.40.24. If they do in 0.42, that sounds like a bug to me.
Post by: cochramd on December 29, 2015, 08:52:30 pm
Well, I'm just going off the wiki. I haven't made any coins, and I have no intention to do so.Currently, coins have a quality factor in their value. Given that the point of coins is that every coin of the same material is supposed to have the same value, doesn't this defeat the purpose of coins?
Are you sure they have quality modifiers? They definitely didn't in 0.40.24. If they do in 0.42, that sounds like a bug to me.
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 29, 2015, 09:02:29 pm
As it is, coins are worthless outside their country. Will there ever be money-changers, maybe when there's an economy update?
Post by: Toady One on December 29, 2015, 09:24:09 pm
Quote from: iceball3
When it comes to deities, will they always be somewhat randomly generated, or are you considering making RAW defining deities to be an alternate option that one could take (if/when you get to it)?
I'm not sure which parts of the myth stuff are going to be in parameters/raws initially. Getting an actual specific historical figure (e.g. a deity) out is more "world editor" territory. It would be nice but it is more work.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
if animal men receive any improvements following the introductory launch release phase of thier occupancy within your base, would you be able to set them additional labours not typically assigned to workshops? IE: task amphibious races to unrestricted building functions in underwater/lava (with magma safe clothing) settings such as the breaching of aquifers due to [nobreathe], or task legendary climbing ability flying races to scaling inaccessible rough wall verticality in order to build walls/haul/deconstruct?
I didn't have anything particular in mind, though certain of the animal people would be useful for non-standard tasks.
Quote from: cochramd
do you have plans to make the children and spouses of nobles act like nobles? No, I'm not a masochist, why do you ask?
I know you said you'll be planning on hunting down bugs for a while, but what new features do you plan to work on next?
I don't have particular plans there -- the status/family(law/customs/etc.) update might touch upon that, or that might be missed. It depends on what form it takes.
The current idea is to spread a bit from bugs into fixing some of the issues with adv rep/rumors/etc. and other things that make that part of the game un-fun, do some other simple suggestions, and then try out a 64 bit version, and then start the artifact/myth stuff (which we will have a dev update for when we map it out more clearly).
Quote from: GoblinCookie
Is there any hope that with the upcoming development dealing with prehistory that we will finally see the dark fortress [CHAT_WORTHY] bug fixed allowing us to raw define chat worthy nobles for civs with dark fortress sites?
Now animal people are in the spotlight, are you going to implement something like [LAYER_LINKED] for surface animal people giving them basic weapons and armour.
Also, are you going to add in stone weaponry to equip both surface dwelling animal people and potentially the existing layer-linked ones as well.
There's hope for bugs on the tracker, though there's a lot of them. We're going to continue working on them for a while. I don't remember the specifics of that report in particular.
We aren't going to get into the animal person entity for now. Not sure when. There's some backing necessary to make it work. Layer-linked didn't exactly turn out well.
Quote from: CLA
Will adventurers be able to write diaries at some point?
Basically, every recorded event (dingo attacked, killed a deer, wandered around, climbed mountain) you could maybe find in legends mode, written in a paper we carry around, which can be found by other adventurers.
I imagine you'll get more control over the writing you can currently do over time. There isn't a diary right now, and I don't know where that fits in with the invention of the autobiography and the chronicle and all that, in our knowledge system, but we wanted to do diaries back in the original 2002 plans, so it'll happen sometime.
Quote from: KaelGotDwarves
Toady: One of my biggest dreams as a modder would be the ability to lock the use of certain outfits and entity items to certain genders and positions (No men in dresses, royal guards/champions with unique outfits and weapons, different professions having preference for different outfits like priests). Would this be able to be added easily along with making clothes in various sizes for multi-creature forts?
Nah, it's harder and not really related at all, since it gets more at the clothing generation functions and the clothing AI, rather than the jobs. I don't know when it'll next be looked at.
Quote from: Pseudopuppet
I've noticed that you can restrict visitors from coming into your taverns, libraries, and temples. Will this ever extend to being able to ban certain races (of both visitors and your fort's own population) from accessing these locations? Like let's say I'm okay with letting human visitors and animal people hang in my taverns but elf visitors aren't allowed anywhere near my beer. Or let's say I want to treat the elves that are already within my population unfairly.
I didn't have particular plans for this. I'm not sure when we'll open up that can of worms.
Quote from: cochramd
Will we ever be able to create production orders for statues/figurines/engravings of specific things?
We were planning to do it at some point, probably with the material stuff. It's up on dev as "Ability to order the construction of a specific item or decoration of item in complete detail". This would include statues and figurines, though I fear the interface for that. I'm not sure about engravings, but it could be handled the same way, roughly.
Quote
Quote from: Max^TMToady... you monster... you fixed the sapient corpse butchering/eating/wearing.
I'm sure I'll end up figuring out a workaround before this gets answered, but was this a deliberate change or a side effect of something else, and is it just one tag or am I going to have to hunt down several to "unfix" the "fix" there?Quote from: Random_DragonAre you going to revert the "no using materials from butchering sentients" adventurer rule, or at least make it ethics-dependant? If you DO make it depend on ethics, could outsiders be free to commit cannibalism?
I don't recall changing anything in particular. I don't quite understand where the exact barrier is occurring. I don't recall a wear-based restriction message in adv mode.
Quote from: Button
Scholars stealing books from our libraries when they leave: intended, happy accident, or bug?
I think it's a bit buggish since it's too micromanagey and violent to control it the way it is (since you'd have to drown them or something). They should probably politely leave stuff that isn't theirs.
Quote from: Robsoie
While 34.11 and previous versions "spawned" sieges had often gob weapon masters, this does not happen in either df2014 or 42.x with the new "marching armies" of those versions and all the goblin sieges through the years i faced in any of my forts are always made of low skilled gob soldiers or recruits.
And considering they take 2/3 years to decide to come to your fortress in 42.01, it's important to note that the current dwarven military training can easily deliver a couple of legendary dwarves in only a couple of years by simply them sparring, transforming those gob sieges that were supposed to be threat a simple walk in the park when a single legendary dwarf can kill a dozen of those invading gobs by himself in no time.
So do you have plans to have gobs training their military skills in their dark sites the same as dwarves does in your fortress to get sieges challenging again ?
I've made note of it.
Quote from: Button
Toady, I've yet to get any titan/megabeast-worshipping historical figures as immigrants, despite targeting my worldgens towards creating them. Did you disallow them from immigration, or have I just been unlucky?
Also, did you take titan/megabeast worshippers into consideration when implementing the worship need & who you can build temples for?
I didn't do anything in particular with them, so they should show up like anybody else. I'm not sure how frequently it happens in world gen now though. I think you can target your temple toward any worshipped figure in the fort, unless it is busted.
Quote from: Max^TM
I encountered groups of human and dwarven astronomers and scholars and mathematicians hanging out on a hillside near the fort, there were a few soldiers nearby guarding them, which made it a real pain in my ass to try and feed off of them. They hung around talking some, just kinda hanging out quietly some, in little clusters of 2 to 5, before heading back inside the fort to the library.
Much like my previous encounter with a cheetah hunting an ibex, this looked like a really natural sort of behavior, astronomers hanging out on a hillside at night studying the stars, guards escorting them, I would not have been surprised to see a telescope set up out there if they existed.
Did you include anything to encourage this behavior, or expect something like it, whereby astronomers and philosophers and naturists and such actually go outside and observe their surroundings?
Nah, it was just lucky. We don't have very much scheduling yet outside of tavern visits, fakeish well trips, strolls, and going home at night.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I know they're small cute things, but is an adventurer gorlak supposed to be unable to open doors? I mean, he can hold a spear just fine...
Nope. I guess that's broken.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Right now we can accept people into our fort and they will be sad being separated from loved ones. Will dwarves ever immigrate to our fortress to be with their families? Also, will dwarves ever emigrate from the fort for any reason?
The sadness at separation is all due to kidnapped relatives, if I remember correctly, though you do have the family need thing which isn't as much of an emotional drain.
Quote from: CharonM72
1. Currently, the coordinates output in the Legends.xml file for sites are very imprecise and can be off by a substantial amount from where the site actually is in-game. Is there a plan to remedy this? Like, accuracy to at least the tenths or hundredths place instead of to the ones place.
2. Region borders are not exported at all. Is there a plan to implement this?
I didn't have any particular plans. There are lots of site variables it doesn't export yet, and lots of variables in general, and it's a long project to complete. There's a better rectangle stored within the site which it could put out if it isn't there. If it's just doing the x/y for the world map tile print, yeah, that one's pretty bad.
Region borders like the forests? There's lots of map data it isn't dumping in xml, but a lot of it is in the images. The entity influence areas aren't really important yet.
Quote from: Heretic
1. Will we ever have possibility to ask "What's happening?" or at least "to whom you serve?"in adventure mode?
2. I have seen a lot of loyalty cascade in adventure mode, for example than i rescued all merchants(about hubdred) from market and lord and some priests from temple, i created a band, captured hall. After it i leave the hall and one o priests that follows me tink that now he is lord... they started argue(i meant only speaking, it was in 40.24) and after hour IRL of shouting "I hear ... became a lord" they started a fight. After some point more and more merchants draws their knives... and after 10 minets IRL of fighting and about thousands pages of logs they killed my compainons and me. That's happened? In Legends i find only "Violent disagrement"
3.Is now any ingame method in adventure to understand to that faction nps belongs?
4.Why then you asked vampire about itelf in menu "ask about someone" he said : Vampire ... - it's me.
5. If you hear that army moving to settlement, how fast it will travel? Should you wait for weeks? For mounths?Will it come or not if you in settlement? Can player see how invaders capture the hall? Or it's only in abstract?
6. If you kill anyone you see in camp of marsing army, is it stop? Or enemies will load from absrtract to real and continue marsh after you leave camp?
7.If i order "to wait" me for rescued that has no family, in fortress and after it retire adventurer and unretire fortress... will him/they asked to be migrants?
8.That reasons using mayor to accept this if fortress retired?
9.That i need to do to see negative effects of alchogol to dwarves in fortress mode? If i created a burrow with one barrel of any kind of wine/beer/etc will it work?
1. You can ask about emotional state as well as troubles. There'll be more over time.
2. I dunno what happened. We're going to make some of the conflict causes more clear so we can work it out.
3. Nothing easy I remember. We'll probably be adding a few soon.
4. They say something like that when you ask where they are. They might have the same reply if you ask them what they think of themselves, since they aren't able to do that now.
5. It only takes days in general, and there are some stale rumors. You should be able to watch them capture the hall if they want to do that, but more likely it'll be a rampaging army, and the local-view destruction of buildings etc. isn't coded yet.
6. If you kill the soldiers, the army will be dead.
7. Hmm... I'm not sure. If they have an army controller from you, it might tie them up, but they are supposed to go stale after some days.
8. I didn't follow this one.
9. To see if they are drunk? Or too drunk? You can see their personality changes in their thoughts to see that they are drunk, but if they are really drunk, you'll have to look for vomit or dead bodies.
Quote from: Nopenope
Do you have plans for demonic fortresses (aka curious underground stuctures) to come back in any way, shape or form? Or were they supposed to be replaced by vaults?
I expect the myth generator stuff will cause a seismic event of sorts as regards all of the different things like that. I'm not sure what we'll have after that.
Quote
Quote from: Random_DragonAre there any plans to bring back the idea of DF2012-style quests? As it stands, when discussing "army on the march" and "abducted child" rumors, the player is given the option to talk the other person into joining to escape or aid in a rescue mission, respectively.
Maybe beast, camp, and town harassment rumors could yield the option to offer to deal with the problem, starting it as a quest? Logically, the "agreements" section of the Quest log might be the best place to record and track agreements to exterminate bandits or beasts.Quote from: thvazDo you plan to come back with quests or assignments in adventure mode in any way?
It is impossible to know how to build good reputation with a entity just following rumors. Killing bandits harassing a hamlet cause people to call you a killer. Kill a vampire and people will call you murderer.
I don't know that it'll be strictly DF2012-style, since we removed those for a reason, but it'll be improved significantly before we move on to the 64 bit stuff and beyond. There will be more recognition of what you've done as regards the "inquire about troubles" rumors, and some better handling of the ones you personally want to do interface-wise and socially (whether that's through promising to help or just expressing interest or "quest marking" it or whatever). The hearths will care about all the "troubles" stuff, instead of just other hearths... hopefully we can make people sort of sensible about what is actually dangerous to their communities. We have a list of about twenty smaller changes along these lines we want to finish as we do bugs and simple suggestions.
Quote from: HugoLuman
How soon do you think we'll be seeing multi-part weapons?
How soon? I have no idea. The instruments didn't really give us enough for it, though it was something I guess. It isn't necessary for the artifact stuff, though random things happen.
Quote from: TheFlame52
(numbers added)
1. Will we ever be able to customize our adventurer's likes and dislikes like we can their personality?
2. Will we ever get more Legends Mode tabs? Like for music/instruments, maybe?
3. Currently, underground plants are seasonal and aboveground plants can be grown at any time. This makes no sense. Will it ever be fixed/changed?
4. Now that we have dwarves suffocating on their own vomit, will there ever be some kind of dwarven CPR or other advanced medical procedures?
5. Will vampires in worldgen ever drain historical figures?
6. Will there ever be prisoners we can free in dungeons?
7. Will people ever commit crimes in worldgen?
8. Will we ever be able to find stolen children if they're anywhere besides in a dark fortress?
1. Yeah, though it's more likely when they matter more, since it'd take a bit of time to handle all the varieties.
2. Sure, dunno when. The art and instrument stuff are candidates now, if people want to read those paragraphs.
3. It made a tad more sense when there was no aboveground farming and there was seasonal flooding of the underground, maybe, but yeah, it's kind of strange now. Not sure when we'll get to the nuts and bolts of aboveground farming, since there's a lot to do in all of the various modes and it won't matter until they actually use those things post w.g..
4. It wouldn't matter... I don't recall actually making the vomit suffocate them yet when they are ko'd, though it seems like the sort of thing I'd do.
5. They should, since the regular goblins can already murder them.
6. It's a rare situation already from w.g., but I don't actually know what happens with them. It should be more common. We were going to get to some of that with the activation release before, but we cut all the prisoner/slave transport stuff over time.
7. They hardly commit crimes after world gen -- I imagine we'll start to see this when we have the first law release (after the artifact/myth stuff), but that it'll take longer to get to the full-blown justice/punishment release.
8. Yeah, I just haven't handled the odd cases at all yet.
Quote from: Verdant_Squire
Right now, human villages aren't very interesting when compared to their towns, who now have several different types of buildings. Are there any plans to expand the buildings available to the smaller sites, so that we can perhaps see the occasional small inn, shop, or shrine in them?
Yeah, there are a few things we're going to do at the different steps of the process, though towns will probably be quite a bit more interesting because they have more stuff and people. We didn't get to the inns we were expecting for this time, and the embark scenario release is going to involve several new situations which'll take place in smaller communities. Eventually we're also hoping to get to various smaller scale economic things like communal mills, ovens and fishing and so on, but that'll be farther off.
Quote from: Ves
Now we have guests arriving to use our Taverns and Libraries, what are the goals for their interactions with other Fortress facilities? I ask because a visitor got into a tavern brawl and broke his arm, but seems to be ignorant that there's a hospital across the corridor.
I don't have particular goals in mind now. People mentioned the hospital as a good candidate for the location treatment, and there are a few other things like your justice area and so on that might work, and work with the embark situation stuff. I don't know which way it'll go though. It's certainly reasonable for them to want medical care.
Quote from: Nopenope
How long does it usually take for a whole new release (Mac and Linux included) to compile these days?
Five hours or so? Four if everything goes really smoothly. That's for the whole release. The compiles themselves are about 60 minutes each, though linux actually goes on four cores so it only takes about 15-20.
Quote from: jaked122
Are there any plans to expand upon the information given about books, poems, music, etc?
I think we show all the information that's currently generated and stored, but maybe I missed stuff. Or do you mean new stuff? We can always do new stuff, but it'll be a bit before we loop back around to those.
Quote from: LordBaal
What happens if I tell a stinking tree huger hippie (read elf) citizen to cut down a tree?
That was one of the few cases I actually handled, so hopefully it works. It depends on the elf having elf ethics though. An elf that fully converted to human ethics before deciding to live at your fort wouldn't have any problems.
Quote from: vjmdhzgr
What affects the different types of visitors that show up at your fortress? For example, how do you get monster hunters to show up? I've never gotten one with two several year long taverns. Alternatively, is there anything that causes more mercenaries to show up rather than bards and poets? Can you end up attracting more of one scholar type than any others, like have 80% of your scholar guests be doctors?
People seem to not be seeing monster slayers -- it just takes reaching the underground, but apparently they are being fickle. I'll need to look into it. Some mercenaries prefer fortresses that are dangerous (that is, people have died recently), while that'll turn off some of the others. I haven't differentiated the scholar types yet that way.
Quote from: Devin
Might merchant caravans ever occasionally choose to fight when the player tries to seize goods, especially early on?
It's a reasonable suggestion.
Quote from: Fniff
Will there ever be an Adventurer Mode theme?
I never seem to get to any new music, so I wouldn't anticipate anything.
Quote from: iceball3
When considering the future of legal systems in various towns throughout the world, are you thinking of going for emulation of legislation bodies (including but not limited to the monarchical leader of the site), with change to law occuring over time in preference to the (potential) self interest or pressures from citizenry, OR are you considering keeping abstract and flatly inline with the site's local's and beliefs?
The plan is to have it be very varied, obscenely involved and mighty-morphable, though it all depends on what exactly we get to. We won't get to all of it, but hopefully the framework will be solid enough this time to support laws changing over time in a number of ways (common law w/ through judges, civil law, merging systems and accommodating customs, vampires, etc.). We have to make sure the associated historical figure and event load doesn't get out of control, though. It'll be interesting to see how that goes.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
How do worldgen vampire purges work? Do they just vanish, courtesy of an unknown act of the gods, or are there actual events involving vampire hunters/peasant mobs and such?
It's a minor history collection, but it shows up in the main list and is expandable. Right now the vampires can flee or be executed. We were hoping to get to some duels and innocent victims, but it ended up pretty sparse for the first pass.
Quote from: Japa
what compiler will you be using for the eventual 64bit DF?
Right now the plan is to use the MSVC that people suggested for Windows (2013 community, or whatever), and the test program worked with that. I have no idea what the linux/mac configurations are or how it would work there.
Quote from: KillzEmAllGod
When might the master/apprentice system enter fort mode and a skill system overhaul so that some dwarfs can only get so far in a skill and the speed a which they progress a bit like how attributes are limited?
Would this also mean dwarfs would need to learn how to craft certain items either from their master or reading it from a book/scroll, thinking that scholars would be able to study weapons and other objects and come up with a detailed design of it then that could be given to another dwarf to try and then think of a way to craft it.
I'm not sure when I'm going to get to that sort of thing, but it's something we wanted to do. We're going to be a bit cautious with the restriction of action based on skill/knowledge, since it might make certain forts totally unable to act, but we're planning to use negative qualities for that situation (and maybe completely stop some jobs). We'd like to kind of build up the knowledge and so forth along with the adv mode skills stuff, and then work that back into dwarf mode in the cases where it isn't too micro-fiddly, but I'm not sure how it'll be, or whether regular teaching etc. will come in before we even try to involve knowledge.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Would giant elephants be large enough to qualify to be multi tile? (vertically above one layer but structurally the same) and would any of the multi-tile animals/creatures/mega-beasts/other relate to what your dwarves at ground level can reach? (unable to sever very much other than the legs of a bronze colossus for instance, without crippling it or gaining elevation?) or would it work normally?
Regular elephants would qualify as multi-tile if we are particular about it. It depends on how much we want to fudge the "2m x 2m x 3m" tile guesstimate we float around. An elephant trunk itself could get a little - if we are weird. ()E- It starts to look bad.
The test dragons had separate limbs and a neck with a 157-yen head and a slinky tail, and you wouldn't be able to hit any part you aren't next to. I'm not sure about all of it though. It's harder to make random and mod creatures look good, and the tileset issue is also large and multi-troubling... though I don't want to go with a block/blob approach either. The counter-pressure is that trees and other future features are going to make one-tile giant creatures sillier and sillier, until they become too silly. Tall creatures are harder since you can only see a slice of them, so they always look bad, but the idea is that you'd be able to jump on them and the dragons and be on a specific body part, if we are lucky enough to make it work at all.
Quote from: Amperzand
How are Kobold names generated?
It's just goes by a list of possible consonants and vowels, with different endings. The vowels aside from the last two should all match. depebeDOGUS, etc. It's how we used to talk to our cats growing up. It might still happen with Scamps at times.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Any plans regarding whether that delicious brain-rotting venom will stay as the way it is?
I'm not sure. It'll be a deadly neurotoxic scorpion, but if we go with a real one that lives in the desert, it might be slightly different.
Quote from: Thebestidentity
Do undead created by evil weather effects exhibit the same changes to undead that were in the devlog?
Yeah, we don't have a mechanism right now that puts some sort of nethery-bad soul into them. I could make them stronger and faster (and might), but they won't block or get combat opportunities.
Quote from: Sizik
So a normal human zombie will die if you cut it's head off, at which point it can be re-re-animated, then die if you cut an arm/hand off, can get re-re-re-animated, and then be permanently dead once you chop off the other arm?
Something like that, yeah. I don't really like it, but I don't like the other way either. The thing that was Really unacceptable was that pulping the head killed it, but chopping off the head didn't. That was very strange and has been fixed now. The arm thing I could be talked either way on depending on nothing in particular. I'd prefer it to work some other way altogether, but that'll take some improvements to the magic system I think.
Quote from: thvaz
Can we still found armed and armored zombies in sieges or towers?
I didn't change anything about that... there are still a lot of contradictions with the zombies. They still somehow follow the necromancer like an army, despite not having any thinky behavior aside from attacking the living, and a necromancer even requires 50 of them to build a tower, as if they could be directed to do something complex like that. I imagine it'll slowly come into shape as the specifics of magic come in, and that'll hopefully lead to more interesting wizard towers etc. etc. as well.
Quote from: joeyshabidu
Hey Toady, cool game, I'm a big fan. I read in the dev overview that the ability to pass long periods of time in adventure mode is a work in progress. How's that coming along? It would be fascinating to enact a "2nd world gen" to see the consequences of player actions over significant periods of time.
Doing an actual second world gen is not going to be in the cards, since it's too hard to put everything back in the bag. The best I can probably manage is the ability to set how long the calendar runs. That's the sort of thing which will be randomly added when it comes up.
Quote from: cochramd
Do kids play with imaginary friends now? Do said imaginary friends not show up on the relationships screen? Because there's a kid playing with "Orshetdanman", and I can't find any "Orshetdanman" in the fortress.
I'm not sure what that is... That seems too long to be an instrument name, but I think Button's suggestion of an artifact toy is good. The make believe activity doesn't specify anything yet.
Quote from: cochramd
I'm currently in the practice of obsidian casting, and I know damned well that a fair number of the floors and walls I'm casting in aren't magma-safe, but they hold anyways. One day, you're going to have to fix the system so that walls and floors made out of non-magma safe materials won't hold magma, but in turn perhaps you should make it easier to construct a magma-proof room. For instance, when I order that stone blocks be made I could order that they be made of magma-safe stones.And when I go to build floors or walls, there could be a handy option to restrict myself to magma-safe materials. What are you going to do to these ends?
I don't expect it any time soon, since there are various technical issues with making non-magma safe material walls affected by temperature or even magma specifically. At that point, it would be a high priority to allow people to continue using magma in their fortresses.
Quote from: TheFlame52
As it is, coins are worthless outside their country. Will there ever be money-changers, maybe when there's an economy update?
Yeah, sometime around then. We'll probably do something small just to make it a little less confusing first. They aren't supposed to be completely worthless now as goods, and you could sell them for some amount of local coins, but that might be broken or have a way-too-unfavorable exchange rate.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 29, 2015, 09:43:32 pm
Quote
I never seem to get to any new music, so I wouldn't anticipate anything.Calling all musicians...
Post by: Max™ on December 29, 2015, 09:59:36 pm
Is there an indicator about a dance or song start attempt in place or are there plans to have one so we can "fill in" for the extra spot when npcs go to start a performance?
Hoping you're able to get the between-site taverns worked in as a mid-release bump like the world activation one was, those sound fun.
Post by: cochramd on December 29, 2015, 10:23:30 pm
A bit of investigation shows it was in fact an artifact toy. Nevertheless, imaginary friends sounds like a cool thing to implement.Quote from: cochramdDo kids play with imaginary friends now? Do said imaginary friends not show up on the relationships screen? Because there's a kid playing with "Orshetdanman", and I can't find any "Orshetdanman" in the fortress.
I'm not sure what that is... That seems too long to be an instrument name, but I think Button's suggestion of an artifact toy is good. The make believe activity doesn't specify anything yet.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 30, 2015, 01:04:27 am
QuoteQuote from: Max^TMToady... you monster... you fixed the sapient corpse butchering/eating/wearing.
I'm sure I'll end up figuring out a workaround before this gets answered, but was this a deliberate change or a side effect of something else, and is it just one tag or am I going to have to hunt down several to "unfix" the "fix" there?Quote from: Random_DragonAre you going to revert the "no using materials from butchering sentients" adventurer rule, or at least make it ethics-dependant? If you DO make it depend on ethics, could outsiders be free to commit cannibalism?
I don't recall changing anything in particular. I don't quite understand where the exact barrier is occurring. I don't recall a wear-based restriction message in adv mode.
I'm assuming it was unintended behavior then. I would link to the issue I opened back when I first noticed this, but Mantis is out for now.
I find it funny that the most common workaround for this in mods has been to add literal stupefying powers to the adventurer races.
Post by: Button on December 30, 2015, 03:16:43 am
Quote from: ButtonToady, I've yet to get any titan/megabeast-worshipping historical figures as immigrants, despite targeting my worldgens towards creating them. Did you disallow them from immigration, or have I just been unlucky?
Also, did you take titan/megabeast worshippers into consideration when implementing the worship need & who you can build temples for?
I didn't do anything in particular with them, so they should show up like anybody else. I'm not sure how frequently it happens in world gen now though. I think you can target your temple toward any worshipped figure in the fort, unless it is busted.
Btw, I did manage to gen an appropriate world & get some hydra-worshipper as immigrants. I could make a temple to the hydra, but nobody ever seemed to worship it. That was in 0.42.03 though so the choose-who-to-worship code in 0.42.04 may have fixed it.
Tangentially, I've noticed that immigrants with extensive family histories have a lot more gods on their worship list than those that were generated without families, or with only their immediate families. Did you make it so children adopt the gods of their parents, or how do they decide? Does it use the same logic in worldgen and at the coming of adulthood in fortress mode?
Whatever the logic, when you get 3 or 4 rungs down a family tree dwarves end up worshipping every god in the pantheon, which is a pain. Is this an intended challenge, or a bug in worship list pruning?
Post by: thvaz on December 30, 2015, 03:50:12 am
Quote
It made a tad more sense when there was no aboveground farming and there was seasonal flooding of the underground, maybe, but yeah, it's kind of strange now. Not sure when we'll get to the nuts and bolts of aboveground farming, since there's a lot to do in all of the various modes and it won't matter until they actually use those things post w.g..
I had forgotten about the seasonal flooding! How fun it was. So many innocent dwarves drowned.
Post by: BesorgterZwerg on December 30, 2015, 05:10:09 am
is there a plan for the near future to make the champion useful again?
I hoped a champion would act like a teacher and train my squads by leading combat demonstrations, give them a positive thought, etc. but right now its mechanic is broken.
Post by: Zarathustra30 on December 30, 2015, 05:12:52 am
Quote from: NopenopeDo you have plans for demonic fortresses (aka curious underground stuctures) to come back in any way, shape or form? Or were they supposed to be replaced by vaults?
I expect the myth generator stuff will cause a seismic event of sorts as regards all of the different things like that. I'm not sure what we'll have after that.
I know it was a metaphor, but I really hope Toady slips in underground features (like fissures) when he replaces Curious Structures. Underground rivers, batholiths, kimberlite tubes, oil basins, coal fires, nuclear reactors - there is an incredible number of crazy things Toady could include.
Post by: Knight Otu on December 30, 2015, 06:29:43 am
Post by: Robsoie on December 30, 2015, 10:36:28 am
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on December 30, 2015, 10:41:56 am
Post by: cochramd on December 30, 2015, 11:14:16 am
Orshet Dan Man?Orshetdanman, The Cremated Heaviness, an artifact beak dog bone puzzlebox. Yeah, I don't get it either.
Post by: Silverybearded on December 30, 2015, 12:45:22 pm
Bloodthorn charcoal?
Post by: Putnam on December 30, 2015, 05:12:22 pm
QuoteI never seem to get to any new music, so I wouldn't anticipate anything.Calling all musicians...
All I can come up with right now is some generic dorian (see: scarborough fair, rogue legacy pre-run themes) tripe.
Post by: BenLubar on December 30, 2015, 06:40:21 pm
[What] are the [short-term/long-term/no] plans to add nonverbal communication [to adventure mode]? Currently, spitting is possible and characters cry when they're upset, but there's no way to laugh or to smile or to tap someone on the shoulder or give someone a hug. (Okay, those last two can be done with the combat system in the current version, but it's not advisable if you want to stay friends.)
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 30, 2015, 07:57:32 pm
Something I just found out: Oftentimes, there will be merchants from several different civs in a shop. Just trade through the one from the civ your coins are from.Quote from: TheFlame52As it is, coins are worthless outside their country. Will there ever be money-changers, maybe when there's an economy update?
Yeah, sometime around then. We'll probably do something small just to make it a little less confusing first. They aren't supposed to be completely worthless now as goods, and you could sell them for some amount of local coins, but that might be broken or have a way-too-unfavorable exchange rate.
Post by: Knight Otu on December 31, 2015, 06:18:00 am
Side note: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html seems to be missing some of the latest updates - a lot of the stuff that was added in 0.42.01 is still marked as "partially done" even though the descriptions match what I've seen ingame.As far as I can see, none of the "partially done items" in the Tavern section are fully done, with maybe one exception -
* Fortress guests include merchants, diplomats, adventurers, mercenaries, bandits, travelers, etc. - Merchants aren't among the guests, and I suspect several types of travelers aren't either (for example people traveling to marry or take on positions elsewhere).
* Rooms rentable to outsiders - Technically, the rooms are rented, but the rooms are only rented to residents, not all travelers (and you get no monetary benefit, of course).
* Fortress's reputation as inn/tavern tracked - There's some kind of reputation, clearly, but as far as I'm aware, the plans were a bit farther-reaching, and depended a bit on recipes and drink quality.
* Tie-ins with fortress justice if things go badly - That's not happening right now, I'm pretty sure.
* Inns in some towns and on roads, with rooms available for the player - No road-side inns.
* Food and drink service for the player and others - There are only drink services.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 31, 2015, 11:49:40 am
* Food and drink service for the player and others - There are only drink services.
Though technically you can fill a mug with food and NPCs will "drink" it.
Or fill it with live animals/people via cage manipulation.
Post by: BenLubar on December 31, 2015, 12:51:23 pm
* Food and drink service for the player and others - There are only drink services.
Though technically you can fill a mug with food and NPCs will "drink" it.
Or fill it with live animals/people via cage manipulation.
I traded some bear spleens for a beer and the barkeep drank the spleens.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 31, 2015, 12:54:20 pm
Post by: Neonivek on December 31, 2015, 08:32:52 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 31, 2015, 08:42:08 pm
What what what what what.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 31, 2015, 09:44:49 pm
So uhh guys with the security leak... Is the newest game safe for download?
Que? D:
Post by: SimRobert2001 on December 31, 2015, 10:15:09 pm
So uhh guys with the security leak... Is the newest game safe for download?
Yes. It doesnt have any personal information.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 31, 2015, 10:16:39 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 31, 2015, 10:41:09 pm
If you actually thought this was a Steam game, I will eat you. :V
Post by: SimRobert2001 on January 01, 2016, 12:21:29 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 01, 2016, 02:46:28 am
Post by: Robsoie on January 01, 2016, 04:09:53 am
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=154663.0
Post by: SimRobert2001 on January 01, 2016, 04:16:07 am
Not a troll
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=154663.0
Oh, then i apoligize. What info would they have?
Post by: Silverybearded on January 01, 2016, 05:47:21 am
I have no idea whether that's possible, but I'll hold an eye out.
At least somethings's being done, what with the server migration and all.
Weird. Flying DIce said in that post something about people "who have had a hate-on for B12/Toady in the past".
Are there people who actively hate him? But why?
Post by: Amperzand on January 01, 2016, 06:49:22 am
Post by: therahedwig on January 01, 2016, 07:25:34 am
Weird. Flying DIce said in that post something about people "who have had a hate-on for B12/Toady in the past".This is the internet. If there's more than five people liking something, there's a sixth who hates it so much that they swear they will not rest until it's gone and dead.
Are there people who actively hate him? But why?
Post by: GoblinCookie on January 01, 2016, 08:19:00 am
Completely irrelevant to the above, but can giant animal variants be tamed by NPC civs? I ask only because if they can be, certain awesome LotR scenes can be recreated, and giant war elephants can only be amazing regardless.
It depends upon what the raws say, the I think that elves can tame giant animals but nobody else can other than the player as they have [PET_EXOTIC] in the raws rather than [PET].
Post by: TheFlame52 on January 01, 2016, 04:23:43 pm
Post by: Amperzand on January 01, 2016, 05:36:11 pm
Completely irrelevant to the above, but can giant animal variants be tamed by NPC civs? I ask only because if they can be, certain awesome LotR scenes can be recreated, and giant war elephants can only be amazing regardless.
It depends upon what the raws say, the I think that elves can tame giant animals but nobody else can other than the player as they have [PET_EXOTIC] in the raws rather than [PET].
That makes good sense. Thank you.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on January 01, 2016, 06:47:49 pm
Might rain also be done a bit better so it crosses different bioms instead of just raining perfectly in the biom that its allowed too?
This might be asking too much but how viable would it be to allow the game to be able to change the course of a river that might be prone to doing so? (Was thinking yellow river)
Well that was a lot about water and not about aquifers.
Post by: cochramd on January 01, 2016, 07:28:52 pm
Post by: Deboche on January 01, 2016, 07:30:15 pm
The thing about coins in the olden days is that you could just weigh them to see what they were worth. This seems to suggest that there will be fiat currency. Can anyone confirm it?Quote from: TheFlame52As it is, coins are worthless outside their country. Will there ever be money-changers, maybe when there's an economy update?
Yeah, sometime around then. We'll probably do something small just to make it a little less confusing first. They aren't supposed to be completely worthless now as goods, and you could sell them for some amount of local coins, but that might be broken or have a way-too-unfavorable exchange rate.
Post by: TheFlame52 on January 01, 2016, 07:31:34 pm
Does the number of goblins killed in a siege effect global goblin population? I very much like the idea of driving goblins to extinction just from the bodycount built by surviving sieges. However, I've noticed that goblins seem to retreat after half their number has been felled, so I'm torn between designing my trapline for maximum dead goblins and designing my trapline for killing goblins as quickly as possible, as it seems I cannot optimize for bothUse a more complicated trap, one that lures the goblins in and makes them walk out through a hall of terrifying spikes.
Post by: cochramd on January 01, 2016, 07:56:02 pm
Nyeh. I'm already 15 years and thousands of traps into this fortress, it's kind of late for such a project. Besides, I've already thought up 2 complex traps like that which would kill entire sieges and I've concluded that they would take way longer than any conventional trapline.Does the number of goblins killed in a siege effect global goblin population? I very much like the idea of driving goblins to extinction just from the bodycount built by surviving sieges. However, I've noticed that goblins seem to retreat after half their number has been felled, so I'm torn between designing my trapline for maximum dead goblins and designing my trapline for killing goblins as quickly as possible, as it seems I cannot optimize for bothUse a more complicated trap, one that lures the goblins in and makes them walk out through a hall of terrifying spikes.
Mind you, I may have some evidence that siege kills do affect world population. In every siege with trolls and/or beak dogs I've had, the trolls and beak dogs absorb the worst casualties because they're faster and reach the trapline first. In the first 2 or 3 big sieges, there were both trolls and beak dogs. In the 2 or 3 after that, there were only beak dogs. In my most recent big siege, there were only goblins. I might very well have seriously crippled if not destroyed the enemy's entire livestock supply.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on January 01, 2016, 09:01:30 pm
Post by: cochramd on January 01, 2016, 09:42:43 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 01, 2016, 10:27:56 pm
Currently tried to find bandits and completely failed.
I also spawned on top of a tree and had to jump down, luckily I only was bruised.
---
So since in the future Demigods will be genuinely semi-divine. Have you decided on the exact method the game will dole out their divine gifts? Random, player's choice, or somehow earned with direct interaction with your parent?
I do like how in essence Demigod is kind of an entirely different type of play.
Post by: waveclaw on January 01, 2016, 11:46:01 pm
Quote from: RobsoieWhile 34.11 and previous versions "spawned" sieges had often gob weapon masters, this does not happen in either df2014 or 42.x with the new "marching armies" of those versions and all the goblin sieges through the years i faced in any of my forts are always made of low skilled gob soldiers or recruits.
And considering they take 2/3 years to decide to come to your fortress in 42.01, it's important to note that the current dwarven military training can easily deliver a couple of legendary dwarves in only a couple of years by simply them sparring, transforming those gob sieges that were supposed to be threat a simple walk in the park when a single legendary dwarf can kill a dozen of those invading gobs by himself in no time.
So do you have plans to have gobs training their military skills in their dark sites the same as dwarves does in your fortress to get sieges challenging again ?
I've made note of it.
Armies can still have members with very high skills in 42.04.
In 1053 a marching army that just vistied Savotasob consisted of a lot of low-skilled goblins. some skilled marks-goblins and a single legendary goblin axeman, Sasir Gislaemoth.
My not-so legendary skilled marksdwarf and hammerdwarf squads easily dispatched the low skilled and marks-gobblins plus their trolls.
Sasir ate through all 20 warriors with ease: mostly through head-removing ax chops. Two taverns containing a combined 36 visiting solders then proceeded to get pasted to the fort walls.
Will siege armies ever have different goals?
That is, can they ever capture spoil such as taking animals in cages off of piles or in pastures to drag them off the map?
Right now there is only one kind of siege: kill everything that moves. There are already normal fort thieves and several kinds of thieving wildlife. There are a few thieve related goals on the dev page.
Having to keep an army from stealing you blind on top of butchering your citizens seems very medieval. Forts also would have to be very careful about leaving stuff outside the gates. Having a depot destroyed is inconvenient. Having everything that was stuck on it hauled off too (by something other than a random kea or buzzard) means rethinking some fort designs.
Post by: Max™ on January 03, 2016, 04:48:02 am
As the game goes "ha ha, nope" and crashes when an NPC drinks a cage which contains you, I never actually got to check and see if there were any Toadyism's included like the "there is no sunlight when you are dead" stuff. Is there a specific message if someone drinks you? I assume the usual "You have died in a cage." would pop up, but am naturally curious if there may be more.
Post by: Vattic on January 03, 2016, 11:21:57 am
I was thinking of doing it with magma to be thorough, but how on earth do you clear that out in time for the caravans? Too much work, I tell you.If the corridor you pump the magma into has drawbridges for a floor you can retract them and drop the magma bellow very quickly. If you drop it onto a grate over a deeper pit you can even catch the magma safe equipment.
Post by: PTTG?? on January 03, 2016, 03:45:54 pm
So after... accidentally discovering you can use some dfhackery to put someone in a mug and hand it to them and then they drink a hole in the universe and vanish, I tried the same trick with myself and was able to successfully get myself into a mug and hand it to someone.
As the game goes "ha ha, nope" and crashes when an NPC drinks a cage which contains you, I never actually got to check and see if there were any Toadyism's included like the "there is no sunlight when you are dead" stuff. Is there a specific message if someone drinks you? I assume the usual "You have died in a cage." would pop up, but am naturally curious if there may be more.
Reminds me of the dwarf who equipped most of an ikea as armor. I don't recall how effective it was, but he was definitely very slow because, you know, he was wrapped in several beds and a table or two.
Post by: TheFlame52 on January 03, 2016, 05:37:48 pm
Post by: eternaleye on January 03, 2016, 06:04:12 pm
Quote from: Japawhat compiler will you be using for the eventual 64bit DF?
Right now the plan is to use the MSVC that people suggested for Windows (2013 community, or whatever), and the test program worked with that. I have no idea what the linux/mac configurations are or how it would work there.
IIRC, you currently do Linux compiles under Ubuntu, yes? As long as you use a 64-bit install of Ubuntu, the default compiler will be 64-bit, just as it's 32-bit on a 32-bit install. If your Ubuntu system is 32-bit, it gets a little more finicky with cross-compilation and multiarch.
One thing to be aware of - be careful using GCC 5 or newer; libstdc++ has changed its ABI (http://developerblog.redhat.com/2015/02/05/gcc5-and-the-c11-abi/) and that may have painful portability consequences if you compile against the new ABI rather than the old one. GCC 5 can be made to compile against the old ABI; that requires passing -D_GLIBCXX_USE_CXX11_ABI=0 when building DF (and any C++ libraries DF links to).
Post by: cochramd on January 03, 2016, 08:06:51 pm
Post by: Button on January 04, 2016, 01:22:34 am
What makes an army conquer or destroy as opposed to pillaging? It's not site type.
I think you've got the associations mixed up. Site type tolerance is definitely involved in whether or not they'll conquer; the question is, if they won't conquer, will they pillage or destroy?
This is completely anecdotal so please take a whole spoonful of salt, but I believe it has to do with if there are any non-combatants, i.e. children, remaining. In 0.40 I ran into a site which was repeatedly pillaged until someone grew up at the site, and was then destroyed.
Edited for spelling.
Post by: Pooky on January 04, 2016, 09:59:46 am
Post by: Dirst on January 04, 2016, 10:05:56 am
Toady, what are the current plans for boats? I'd love to adventure to fareaway land or make a fortress on an island that isn't completely disconnected from the rest of the world. Though I understand this implies making harbors and a loooooot of related stuff.Toady's plan appears to be start with a harbor building/zone/whatever that teleports to other harbors, maybe with a wagon-like boat, but it wouldn't actually move on screen. Moving boats will wait for the framework that underlies moving siege engines, sliding walls, etc.
The current timeframe is "a year that starts with a 2" :)
Post by: therahedwig on January 04, 2016, 10:10:22 am
Toady, what are the current plans for boats? I'd love to adventure to fareaway land or make a fortress on an island that isn't completely disconnected from the rest of the world. Though I understand this implies making harbors and a loooooot of related stuff.check adventurer role:explorer (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
The next development goal is integrating the myth generator and having that tie to the artefacts, after which there's more reasons to build a fort for the starting scenarios...
So unless Toady decides that 'make a harbour' is a very important starting scenario, or that the myth generator must absolutely have Arks and other legendary boats, and that therefore we need boats in worldgen as well, it'll take a while.(Afaik one of the big problems was that without multi-tile created boats are a little bit underwhelming...)
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 04, 2016, 10:30:54 am
"Get your flails boys, we're going zombie-hunting!"
Post by: MuseOD on January 04, 2016, 10:49:40 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 04, 2016, 10:52:55 am
Post by: Dirst on January 04, 2016, 10:53:30 am
In the forseeable future will you do for food what has been done with music/dance/poetry? I'd really like to see legendary chefs execute extremely complicated signature dishes, and I'd like more complex food preparation reactions to be possible: meat preservation, fattening animals, etc.I would go more in the book direction (generated titles) than the instrument direction (generated words). If everything in the fort has generated words, logs are going to start reading like Dr. Seuss stories.
To the thingamajigger!
Post by: Knight Otu on January 04, 2016, 12:26:50 pm
In the forseeable future will you do for food what has been done with music/dance/poetry? I'd really like to see legendary chefs execute extremely complicated signature dishes, and I'd like more complex food preparation reactions to be possible: meat preservation, fattening animals, etc.Part of that was going to happen during the tavern section, especially the recipes and signature dishes, but since the first release took so long and the remainder would benefit from the economy, that has been postponed for now, and it's unlikely that they're part of the foreseeable future (that being mythology/artifacts and starting scenarios/law/status). After that, maybe it'll be revisited.
Post by: ZM5 on January 04, 2016, 01:19:45 pm
On a similar note, will we see customizable embark messages for modding purposes?
Post by: Button on January 04, 2016, 01:39:59 pm
Adventure mode related: don't know if this was addressed already, couldn't comb over the whole thread, but, are we gonna see personalized (and customizable in the "speech" folder) speech patterns for different races? It's kind of a strange dissonance right now that goblins and hostile bandits/criminals are as polite as any friendly race/group. Same goes for similar always-hostile modded civ. You'd think they'd "greet" you with insults and angrily tell you to "Go away!" as a "goodbye", and so on and so forth for the trade window and other talk options.
On a similar note, will we see customizable embark messages for modding purposes?
Please remember, questions to Toady go in limegreen :).
Post by: LordBaal on January 04, 2016, 01:44:14 pm
Post by: SimRobert2001 on January 04, 2016, 02:36:55 pm
When do you think locking this thread up and starting a new one for the new release?
Why would he? He hasnt before.
Post by: Toady One on January 04, 2016, 03:10:24 pm
Post by: LordBaal on January 04, 2016, 03:20:10 pm
Why would he? He hasnt before.
I'm going to leave this thread open for a while and start up a new one once we have the next path forward up on the dev pages. We'll do some bug-fix releases before we get around to that.
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 04, 2016, 05:38:37 pm
Post by: Silverybearded on January 04, 2016, 06:14:16 pm
Adventure mode related: don't know if this was addressed already, couldn't comb over the whole thread, but, are we gonna see personalized (and customizable in the "speech" folder) speech patterns for different races? It's kind of a strange dissonance right now that goblins and hostile bandits/criminals are as polite as any friendly race/group. Same goes for similar always-hostile modded civ. You'd think they'd "greet" you with insults and angrily tell you to "Go away!" as a "goodbye", and so on and so forth for the trade window and other talk options.You mean, other than what the [LISP] tag already does.
Quote
On a similar note, will we see customizable embark messages for modding purposes?You're gonna have to ask Meph (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=61165) about that one. His DF Masterwork contains customized messages.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on January 04, 2016, 06:17:02 pm
Post by: Putnam on January 04, 2016, 06:27:02 pm
Adventure mode related: don't know if this was addressed already, couldn't comb over the whole thread, but, are we gonna see personalized (and customizable in the "speech" folder) speech patterns for different races? It's kind of a strange dissonance right now that goblins and hostile bandits/criminals are as polite as any friendly race/group. Same goes for similar always-hostile modded civ. You'd think they'd "greet" you with insults and angrily tell you to "Go away!" as a "goodbye", and so on and so forth for the trade window and other talk options.You mean, other than what the [LISP] tag already does.QuoteOn a similar note, will we see customizable embark messages for modding purposes?You're gonna have to ask Meph (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=61165) about that one. His DF Masterwork contains customized messages.
So do a few others, not like anyone gives a shit about mods that aren't Masterwork.
Anyway, that's done by uncompressing the embark message file, editing it and recompressing. I'm actually not 100% sure why it's compressed.
Post by: LordBaal on January 04, 2016, 06:28:16 pm
Am I the only one hyped at the idea of a zombie nerf? ;w;Not at all. I'm hyped as well. I claimed for something along those lines from a long time now.
Post by: Silverybearded on January 04, 2016, 06:32:38 pm
Anyway, that's done by uncompressing the embark message file, editing it and recompressing. I'm actually not 100% sure why it's compressed.How do I decompress that file?
Post by: Putnam on January 04, 2016, 06:34:36 pm
Post by: Trainzack on January 04, 2016, 06:45:04 pm
There's a weird text file (WTF) decompressor around... and another on in perl. I can only remember the name of the WTF one, though. (It's something with WTF, just look up WTF weird text file dwarf fortress and you'll get it).Found it (http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=4175).
Post by: Silverybearded on January 04, 2016, 07:00:02 pm
Also, why do all other files in that folder return blanks? The help files can be disencrypted normally (although, again, incompletely), so someone who's got time could update the tutorial.
Finally, how do I find out about the speech tokens I can use?
Post by: Button on January 04, 2016, 07:08:18 pm
Post by: Robsoie on January 04, 2016, 07:44:03 pm
Every dwarves in every fortresses are completely hyped for this change too .Am I the only one hyped at the idea of a zombie nerf? ;w;Not at all. I'm hyped as well. I claimed for something along those lines from a long time now.
:D
Post by: ZM5 on January 04, 2016, 08:11:27 pm
You mean, other than what the [LISP] tag already does.Erm, that merely extends the s's in speech, it doesn't change what they actually say.
What I mean is more like...tokens in, for instance, the Goblin raw files pointing to text files in the speech folder that each contain different types of greetings for them, depending if they're hostile or not. Similar to how the race-specific "brag about kill" messages are currently used for dwarves and elves, or how Minotaurs use the lair_hunter_minotaur.txt file; different greetings/goodbyes could be specified for different races.
I.e if a goblin is an enemy of your civ but is currently non-hostile they'd be rude and greet you with, for example, "What do you want, *race*?" or "Keep it quick, I have more important things to do." and on "goodbye" would say something like "Now leave!" or "Begone!" - different types of greetings based on civ relations. Right now greetings are the same for each race (which, as I said, creates a dissonance when hostile races such as goblins are really polite as they're trying to kill you; greetings can be edited but that applies to everything currently).
This being part of the speech folder would make it more modable and customizable for individual races, which would be a great way for mods to add more flavor.
As for the embark message, I haven't played Masterwork but myself I'd rather not mess around with compressed files.
Also I don't mean just removing the "Strike the earth" and mentions of a "Mountainhome" to make it neutral; again, a token could be added for modding purposes to point to a different embark message. The dwarf one is the default, and alternates could be specified in the entity files.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 04, 2016, 09:37:50 pm
Does the personality of a leader determine the nation's foreign policy during worldgen? I've seen evidence to support it.Toady mentioned in df talk way back that the personallity effects how often they go to war, however with the new personality stuff from 40.xx there might be more, so short answer yes definitely effects some things, long answer (awaiting toady)
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 04, 2016, 09:45:15 pm
Quote from: RobsoieWhile 34.11 and previous versions "spawned" sieges had often gob weapon masters, this does not happen in either df2014 or 42.x with the new "marching armies" of those versions and all the goblin sieges through the years i faced in any of my forts are always made of low skilled gob soldiers or recruits.
And considering they take 2/3 years to decide to come to your fortress in 42.01, it's important to note that the current dwarven military training can easily deliver a couple of legendary dwarves in only a couple of years by simply them sparring, transforming those gob sieges that were supposed to be threat a simple walk in the park when a single legendary dwarf can kill a dozen of those invading gobs by himself in no time.
So do you have plans to have gobs training their military skills in their dark sites the same as dwarves does in your fortress to get sieges challenging again ?
I've made note of it.
Armies can still have members with very high skills in 42.04.
In 1053 a marching army that just vistied Savotasob consisted of a lot of low-skilled goblins. some skilled marks-goblins and a single legendary goblin axeman, Sasir Gislaemoth.
My not-so legendary skilled marksdwarf and hammerdwarf squads easily dispatched the low skilled and marks-gobblins plus their trolls.
Sasir ate through all 20 warriors with ease: mostly through head-removing ax chops. Two taverns containing a combined 36 visiting solders then proceeded to get pasted to the fort walls.
Will siege armies ever have different goals?
That is, can they ever capture spoil such as taking animals in cages off of piles or in pastures to drag them off the map?
Right now there is only one kind of siege: kill everything that moves. There are already normal fort thieves and several kinds of thieving wildlife. There are a few thieve related goals on the dev page.
Having to keep an army from stealing you blind on top of butchering your citizens seems very medieval. Forts also would have to be very careful about leaving stuff outside the gates. Having a depot destroyed is inconvenient. Having everything that was stuck on it hauled off too (by something other than a random kea or buzzard) means rethinking some fort designs.
I believe this almost same exact question was asked and answered in a df talk way back, dont remember which one.
he mentioned elf ambushes currently having the goal to "shoot a certain amount of arows and leave" and kidnappers and such.
so i guess yes.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 04, 2016, 10:18:53 pm
He also mentioned recently that vampire rulers currently impose harsh laws in worldgen, so that might also effect foreign policy.Does the personality of a leader determine the nation's foreign policy during worldgen? I've seen evidence to support it.Toady mentioned in df talk way back that the personallity effects how often they go to war, however with the new personality stuff from 40.xx there might be more, so short answer yes definitely effects some things, long answer (awaiting toady)
Post by: Trainzack on January 04, 2016, 10:45:45 pm
I believe this almost same exact question was asked and answered in a df talk way back, dont remember which one.
he mentioned elf ambushes currently having the goal to "shoot a certain amount of arows and leave" and kidnappers and such.
so i guess yes.
Relatively early on in number 2:
Quote from: Toady
Yeah. It's sad right now, of course. The goals depend on the critters. The humans goal is just to kill everybody. The goblins, when they send a large invasion, their goal is just to kill everybody. The elves are there to shoot a certain number of arrows or until their group gets spotted prematurely; they aren't trying to kill everybody, but they're just trying to mess with you. And if snatchers or item thieves come, which is another kind of invasion, they're just trying to make it out, and their escorts if they have any work like the elves, they just try and bother you a little bit and distract you. But that's about it;
Post by: WordsandChaos on January 05, 2016, 08:55:21 am
You mean, other than what the [LISP] tag already does.Erm, that merely extends the s's in speech, it doesn't change what they actually say.
What I mean is more like...tokens in, for instance, the Goblin raw files pointing to text files in the speech folder that each contain different types of greetings for them, depending if they're hostile or not. Similar to how the race-specific "brag about kill" messages are currently used for dwarves and elves, or how Minotaurs use the lair_hunter_minotaur.txt file; different greetings/goodbyes could be specified for different races.
I.e if a goblin is an enemy of your civ but is currently non-hostile they'd be rude and greet you with, for example, "What do you want, *race*?" or "Keep it quick, I have more important things to do." and on "goodbye" would say something like "Now leave!" or "Begone!" - different types of greetings based on civ relations. Right now greetings are the same for each race (which, as I said, creates a dissonance when hostile races such as goblins are really polite as they're trying to kill you; greetings can be edited but that applies to everything currently).
This being part of the speech folder would make it more modable and customizable for individual races, which would be a great way for mods to add more flavor.
As for the embark message, I haven't played Masterwork but myself I'd rather not mess around with compressed files.
Also I don't mean just removing the "Strike the earth" and mentions of a "Mountainhome" to make it neutral; again, a token could be added for modding purposes to point to a different embark message. The dwarf one is the default, and alternates could be specified in the entity files.
I'd love to be able to add/rewrite/edit all racial text in DF. The, now defunct, open source space sim Vega Strike had an xml file for each faction that you could add and change speech in - I spent a fair amount of time just adding stuff to the factions.
I expect that this kind of thing will come up if Toady decides to embark on a language re-write. I know that topic gets floated about a bit, but no idea if it's an official thing he'd like to do at some point in the far-flung future. Seems like it'd be pretty huge task, conlangs are pretty dense if you want to go the whole hog with them.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 05, 2016, 11:04:23 pm
Thanks for finding that ;)I believe this almost same exact question was asked and answered in a df talk way back, dont remember which one.
he mentioned elf ambushes currently having the goal to "shoot a certain amount of arows and leave" and kidnappers and such.
so i guess yes.
Relatively early on in number 2:Quote from: ToadyYeah. It's sad right now, of course. The goals depend on the critters. The humans goal is just to kill everybody. The goblins, when they send a large invasion, their goal is just to kill everybody. The elves are there to shoot a certain number of arrows or until their group gets spotted prematurely; they aren't trying to kill everybody, but they're just trying to mess with you. And if snatchers or item thieves come, which is another kind of invasion, they're just trying to make it out, and their escorts if they have any work like the elves, they just try and bother you a little bit and distract you. But that's about it;
Post by: Neonivek on January 06, 2016, 12:04:23 am
(usually do it when I change the dev page, so when I post the revised myth/artifact/magic stuff, it'll probably be locked and remade)
Big when.
Post by: Putnam on January 06, 2016, 12:06:39 am
Post by: cochramd on January 06, 2016, 12:07:17 am
not really, probably gonna happen before the end of the yearHe says, at the beginning of the year.
Post by: Putnam on January 06, 2016, 12:11:40 am
Optimistic is by May.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on January 06, 2016, 08:57:58 am
Post by: Dirst on January 06, 2016, 12:02:46 pm
I expect that this kind of thing will come up if Toady decides to embark on a language re-write. I know that topic gets floated about a bit, but no idea if it's an official thing he'd like to do at some point in the far-flung future. Seems like it'd be pretty huge task, conlangs are pretty dense if you want to go the whole hog with them.This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147824.msg5978189) is the most recent fan attempt of which I am aware. Toady could go in a completely different direction with the language, but it also important to remember that picking in-game conversation is not at all the same thing as devising a language. DF already has a much more organic conversation system than most other games, it's just that the world is so rich in detail that it pushes the boundaries of what the conversation engine can handle.
Would be nice to see someone who's bad at humor, though, even if we only get a description of the awfulness. "Urist's joke falls flat because the pun does not translate." or "Everyone nearby falls silent when Urist uses a light tone inappropriate to the situation."
Post by: ZM5 on January 06, 2016, 12:47:54 pm
That'd be pretty amusing, actually. Dwarf jokes are already something that'd be pretty amusing to think of, but myself I'd especially like to see bad goblin comedians, and goblin jokes in general. "Why did the chicken cross the road? Who cares, halfway across the road, it fell over and choked and died. Haha."I expect that this kind of thing will come up if Toady decides to embark on a language re-write. I know that topic gets floated about a bit, but no idea if it's an official thing he'd like to do at some point in the far-flung future. Seems like it'd be pretty huge task, conlangs are pretty dense if you want to go the whole hog with them.This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147824.msg5978189) is the most recent fan attempt of which I am aware. Toady could go in a completely different direction with the language, but it also important to remember that picking in-game conversation is not at all the same thing as devising a language. DF already has a much more organic conversation system than most other games, it's just that the world is so rich in detail that it pushes the boundaries of what the conversation engine can handle.
Would be nice to see someone who's bad at humor, though, even if we only get a description of the awfulness. "Urist's joke falls flat because the pun does not translate." or "Everyone nearby falls silent when Urist uses a light tone inappropriate to the situation."
Myself I was thinking less of "translations", although that'd be neat (that would take a LOT of work, though, so not something we'll see in the next version, or even for a long time afterwards), and instead a more simple "lines in english that are simply different quotes unique to each race and dependant on how they relate to you and your civ" - think that'd do until a full language rewrite.
Post by: Button on January 06, 2016, 12:51:59 pm
Post by: ZM5 on January 06, 2016, 02:18:41 pm
Post by: CharonM72 on January 07, 2016, 05:35:59 am
Apologies if this stuff was mentioned a long time ago. I haven't always been up to date with future plans.
Post by: Inarius on January 07, 2016, 07:31:36 am
Quote
like other planes (dreamworld, expanded underworld, afterlife (see below)) be considered for inclusion?
Toady has already said that he will do it, however, he also said it was one of the most complicated thing he planned to do. So yes, it's considered, but really, not for now.
Post by: LordBaal on January 07, 2016, 07:52:51 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 07, 2016, 12:02:55 pm
So you come back with your adventurer as a ghost. Silent Hillock...
I assume that DF's version of Pyramid Head would be a blind cave ogre wearing a minecart on his head?
Post by: therahedwig on January 07, 2016, 12:29:13 pm
Urist Towercared, cheesemaker: Lately, I am unsatisfied at the weather.So you come back with your adventurer as a ghost. Silent Hillock...
I assume that DF's version of Pyramid Head would be a blind cave ogre wearing a minecart on his head?
*The Engraver sings well*
Urist Towercared, cheesemaker: Snow is cold, and blood makes me feel disgusted.
*The Engraver sings artfully*
Cog Planeroped, Craftsdwarf: True, true.
*The Engraver collapses and start to make a horrid noise*
Urist Towercared, cheesemaker: What is going on? A fight?!
*The nightcreature Piramid Head has arrived! It is a humanoid creature twisted into wearing a minecart! Beware it's memetic qualities derived from the collision of young gaming lads and things of a semi-freudian sexual nature! Now you know why you fear the night!*
Cog Planeroped, Craftsdwarf: It is terrifying.
Post by: Knight Otu on January 07, 2016, 02:22:08 pm
Earlier I was looking at this (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_journey.html) old Threetoe story and was wondering, what with the upcoming magic and artifact arc, will things like other planes (dreamworld, expanded underworld, afterlife (see below)) be considered for inclusion? In addition, will an afterlife (beyond the ghost features, more in the sense of a physical place or something) be considered for both adventurers, possibly giving them a second chance or at least something to do after being killed, and for fortress mode, expanding the ghost mechanic, perhaps allowing things like channelling, interaction with the dead via mediums or dreams, etc?It's very unlikely that the artifact releases will include fully functional planes. Toady has likened them to the z-level update, and I don't recall him saying that they'll happen. It seems more plausible to me that, if planes are part of the myth generator (which they should, but not necessarily from the start), that the planes will simply be named and described.
Apologies if this stuff was mentioned a long time ago. I haven't always been up to date with future plans.
Ed: Okay, I found a quote where Toady does say that the test myth generator was "tossing in different worlds" etc, so that sounds that at least basic names and descriptions should be in. I still doubt he's going for fully functional planes.
Post by: Bumber on January 07, 2016, 03:11:09 pm
That'd be pretty amusing, actually. Dwarf jokes are already something that'd be pretty amusing to think of, but myself I'd especially like to see bad goblin comedians, and goblin jokes in general. "Why did the chicken cross the road? Who cares, halfway across the road, it fell over and choked and died. Haha.""Why did the fluffy wambler cross the road? It was inevitable. Haha."
Post by: Dirst on January 07, 2016, 03:27:22 pm
"...and then it was decreed that the punchline of every joke told by every dwarf will be 'sock.'"That'd be pretty amusing, actually. Dwarf jokes are already something that'd be pretty amusing to think of, but myself I'd especially like to see bad goblin comedians, and goblin jokes in general. "Why did the chicken cross the road? Who cares, halfway across the road, it fell over and choked and died. Haha.""Why did the fluffy wambler cross the road? It was inevitable. Haha."
Post by: LordBaal on January 07, 2016, 03:32:05 pm
Post by: Silverybearded on January 07, 2016, 05:53:02 pm
A carpenter makes fine beds to rest your heads;
An armor smith makes fine armor to protect our soldiers in battle;
A brewer makes fine beer for the neverending feasts;
and a cheesemaker makes fine swiss when stood between us and the enemy's archers."
Post by: Neonivek on January 07, 2016, 05:54:17 pm
This conversation seems to be veering in the direction of the Suggestions forum.
It always does but that is the nature of things.
Post by: Max™ on January 08, 2016, 03:05:57 pm
You could almost say it was inevitable.This conversation seems to be veering in the direction of the Suggestions forum.
It always does but that is the nature of things.
Post by: Neonivek on January 08, 2016, 05:50:05 pm
Is the lack of a Magic Sphere a conscious choice?
At this point I can't imagine it not being done unintentionally.
Post by: Putnam on January 08, 2016, 06:05:56 pm
Spheres aren't title-caps; there's a fortresses sphere, not a Fortresses Sphere.
To avoid ambiguity, I usually use all-caps for the name of the sphere; the SKY sphere, for example.
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 08, 2016, 07:02:46 pm
Post by: CharonM72 on January 08, 2016, 11:55:49 pm
Will adventure mode ever allow for persistent constructions and modification of terrain, and other fortress mode things like crafting furniture, using workshops, etc.? Kind of like the advfort mod, but officially supported and therefore without the limitations.
Post by: Max™ on January 09, 2016, 01:17:04 am
Actually: Are you still hoping to be able to get the between-site/roadside taverns and/or inns working for a 42.xx bump, a la the big 40.14 world activation or 40.19 stress/emotion changes update? I recall there being difficulties getting them in while the rest was ready to push out but can't find if there was more stated about what your plans there were.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on January 09, 2016, 01:04:29 pm
Please forgive me for my insolence as I'm sure this has been asked a million times, but I wasn't able to find the answer.
Will adventure mode ever allow for persistent constructions and modification of terrain, and other fortress mode things like crafting furniture, using workshops, etc.? Kind of like the advfort mod, but officially supported and therefore without the limitations.
Yes, at some point. It's in the plans somewhere and I'm pretty sure it was discussed on DF talk.
Post by: Trainzack on January 09, 2016, 08:24:56 pm
Yes, at some point. It's in the plans somewhere and I'm pretty sure it was discussed on DF talk.
The best that I could find:
Spoiler: DF Talk 9 Extra Hour (click to show/hide)
Post by: TheFlame52 on January 09, 2016, 09:09:35 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 10, 2016, 03:51:27 am
If I make a goblin adventurer and retire it at a goblin site, can it show up in a siege?Adventurer goblins aren't from goblin civs. You almost certainly don't have the option to retire at a dark pits, just as you can't retire dwarf, human or elf adventurers there.
Unless you're using mods to make goblin civs playable, in which case you probably want the mods forum.
--better question would be, can human or elf civ adventurers turn up in sieges? That would be Fun. Populate the nearby forest retreat with elephant man demi-gods then start a fortress mass-producing wood crafts for elf merchants.
edit-- Hmm. Seems like my current adventurer actually can retire in a goblin dark pits. Wonder what happens to them if you do that...
Post by: Lozzymandias on January 10, 2016, 08:28:14 am
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on January 10, 2016, 12:25:45 pm
--better question would be, can human or elf civ adventurers turn up in sieges? That would be Fun. Populate the nearby forest retreat with elephant man demi-gods then start a fortress mass-producing wood crafts for elf merchants.
Remember to drench your questions in limegreen.
Are there any long term plans to support multi threading in dwarf fortress, or any other measures to share computational load between cores and/or the GPU. It seems to me that FPS death is probably the biggest obstacle to long-term enjoyment.
Yes, but it will be very, very difficult to make multi-threading work. The game will be 64-bit in the near future, so that should help a bit.
Post by: Tygroux on January 10, 2016, 02:17:48 pm
Is there any plan to add a toggle to fort-mode ghosts? What are their short and long-term purpose?
Post by: TheFlame52 on January 10, 2016, 03:15:41 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 10, 2016, 05:07:40 pm
I agree retro fitting threading into a huge non threaded program is a daunting task, but it will probably have to be done at some point. I'd start with stuff that have a minimal data overlap with the rest of the program, with world events outside the fortress for fortress mode being a candidate (nothing happening outside should ideally affect anything inside except when someone from the outside brings the information into it, and vice versa). Implementing that might require two copies of the outside world state, with one being the "truth" and the other being what's known locally and thus being available for engravings etc (not separating data means it has to be protected against concurrent access instead, or you can get nasty hard to track down bugs when data is read at the same time as it's written/updated). The upside of that is that it could enable DF to deliberately twist the local knowledge on synchronization, if desired (i.e. diplomats, traders, and spies feeding lies and propaganda to the fortress, "fog of war" might obscure some knowledge about distant parts of the world, etc).
Post by: Max™ on January 10, 2016, 05:58:43 pm
Post by: King Mir on January 10, 2016, 10:09:57 pm
Being able to load more than 2 GB and have it accessible from speedy ram shouldn't be slower than shuffling 2 GB of data back and forth from the hard drive is.AFAIK, DF doesn't use the file system to shuffle things back and forth, except when saving and loading. So no gain there.
It really is a trade off between larger embarks on 64 bit and a slight performance advantage on 32 bit.
Post by: Max™ on January 11, 2016, 12:35:32 am
Maybe not in fortress mode, but adventure mode you can definitely see the difference when you are roaming around on foot and you cross into an empty hunk of desert vs a chunk of densely populated town with an insurrection taking place. If that was all sitting in ram already it wouldn't take as long, and indeed it wouldn't have the same pause at each new embark tile where the game pulls it up and unloads the tiles which are totally out of sight.Being able to load more than 2 GB and have it accessible from speedy ram shouldn't be slower than shuffling 2 GB of data back and forth from the hard drive is.AFAIK, DF doesn't use the file system to shuffle things back and forth, except when saving and loading. So no gain there.
It really is a trade off between larger embarks on 64 bit and a slight performance advantage on 32 bit.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 11, 2016, 05:28:06 am
Just to clarify: I think a move to 64 bits is a correct one and needed eventually regardless. However, it's just an enabler that doesn't achieve anything beyond larger embarks (that are faster to die the FPS death) on its own; additional work is needed to use the potential provided.
Post by: Dirst on January 11, 2016, 06:11:20 am
I don't play adventure mode, so I don't have any first hand knowledge of it. However, if DF loads and offloads tiles in adventure mode it would do that regardless of whether the code is compiled as 32 or 64 bit. Using 64 bit would make it possible to change the DF code to load everything into (virtual) memory instead however, resulting in a longer initial load time but avoiding the program loading/offloading data to/from the disk during the game. If the physical memory is insufficient (including the OS deciding DF shouldn't get more), you'd still get page fault loading/offloading as the OS swaps memory to/from disk during play.Pre-fetching can be done more intelligently than you're suggesting, and virtual memory is somewhat faster than file I/O. If the physical RAM is available you'll see an orders-of-magnitude improvement.
Just to clarify: I think a move to 64 bits is a correct one and needed eventually regardless. However, it's just an enabler that doesn't achieve anything beyond larger embarks (that are faster to die the FPS death) on its own; additional work is needed to use the potential provided.
64-bit also adds some future-proofing before 32-bit support gets crufty.
Post by: vomov on January 11, 2016, 07:04:46 am
Will we get a boatload of different versions, or a 'catch-all' download that figures out what we need?
It's not like the DF zip is huge or anything :)
Post by: Knight Otu on January 11, 2016, 09:49:07 am
What with the possibility of 64-bit, and we've already got SDL and legacy versions, I be curious:Separate downloads, in all likelihood.
Will we get a boatload of different versions, or a 'catch-all' download that figures out what we need?
It's not like the DF zip is huge or anything :)
Quote from: PidgeotHave you decided how you will distribute the 64-bit builds (once they're ready)? Will it be a single ZIP per OS, containing both 32 and 64-bit executables, or one ZIP for OS/bitness combination?
I'll probably have a bunch of separate zips, but the list is getting long the way it is formatted now. But that's the way I'm leaning. We'll also enter a sort of annoying save compat territory -- even if I manage compat between the bitnesses, 64-bit saves will often be too large for 32 bit DF to load. I imagine there could be "false" bug reports over this, but I'm not sure how to handle it without spending a zillion years coding calculations estimating memory sizes before load or something.
Post by: Dirst on January 11, 2016, 10:31:37 am
Separate downloads, in all likelihood.I think it would be easier for the saving client to write something in the file about how much memory was needed (or predicted to be needed) to handle that save.Quote from: PidgeotHave you decided how you will distribute the 64-bit builds (once they're ready)? Will it be a single ZIP per OS, containing both 32 and 64-bit executables, or one ZIP for OS/bitness combination?
I'll probably have a bunch of separate zips, but the list is getting long the way it is formatted now. But that's the way I'm leaning. We'll also enter a sort of annoying save compat territory -- even if I manage compat between the bitnesses, 64-bit saves will often be too large for 32 bit DF to load. I imagine there could be "false" bug reports over this, but I'm not sure how to handle it without spending a zillion years coding calculations estimating memory sizes before load or something.
Post by: Thief^ on January 11, 2016, 11:19:27 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 11, 2016, 11:24:51 am
If you just wanted to handle the load game case, only the memory allocation calls used there would need to be checked before use, but I'd do it throughout.
Post by: Thief^ on January 11, 2016, 12:24:41 pm
I find it highly unlikely that DF is written to be C++ exception-safe.
Post by: cochramd on January 12, 2016, 06:02:59 pm
Post by: iceball3 on January 12, 2016, 06:09:23 pm
What skill governs the construction of any given assembled instrument? I don't want to waste a lot of parts on instruments that aren't assembled well. I'm training one exceptional craftsdwarf (designated as the instrumentcrafter) in every skill that could possibly assemble instruments in my opinion: bonecarver, carpenter, clothier, glassmaker, leatherworker, masonry, potter, stonecrafter, weaver and woodcrafter, just to be safe.
I'm guessing the skill would be based on the workshop or workshop submenu you assemble it in, but I might not know well enough as I haven't messed with the new version as of lately.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 13, 2016, 06:59:02 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 13, 2016, 11:12:29 am
Quote
It's going okay so far. There's a more specific reputation for defending settlements from outlaws, and new hearth orders for fighting off outlaws, clearing out bandit camps and fighting nearby beasts.
Nananananana hype traaaaiiin!
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 13, 2016, 12:38:03 pm
Post by: burned on January 13, 2016, 02:11:32 pm
You recently added more hearth orders so I was wondering about this: Currently you can join a bandit gang (and even necromancer groups) in adventure mode as a lieutenant but they never seem to tell you to do anything, will you be making bandit leaders give players orders to harass nearby villages and, will players ever be able to establish their own bandit gangs?
Toady spoke about the concept behind agreements in DF Talk (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/df_talk.html) #21 when they were covering the "new" - for that time - conversation system. It starts around the 33 minute mark or you could read the transcript here (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_21_transcript.html).
Just search for "hats district!"
Although a part of what you are asking could be covered by the thief role framework, the idea behind agreements covers a multitude of possibilities beyond what you're asking much like the framework for the military training in 31.xx lead to seemingly unrelated activities like dancing, worshiping, children playing, etc in 42.xx.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 13, 2016, 02:38:49 pm
You recently added more hearth orders so I was wondering about this: Currently you can join a bandit gang (and even necromancer groups) in adventure mode as a lieutenant but they never seem to tell you to do anything, will you be making bandit leaders give players orders to harass nearby villages and, will players ever be able to establish their own bandit gangs?
Toady spoke about the concept behind agreements in DF Talk (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/df_talk.html) #21 when they were covering the "new" - for that time - conversation system. It starts around the 33 minute mark or you could read the transcript here (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_21_transcript.html).
Just search for "hats district!"
Although a part of what you are asking could be covered by the thief role framework, the idea behind agreements covers a multitude of possibilities beyond what you're asking much like the framework for the military training in 31.xx lead to seemingly unrelated activities like dancing, worshiping, children playing, etc in 42.xx.
Thanks friend!
Yeah, was listening to that last night. You can already rob people on the streets, and do get hearth agreements to harass people on the streets of an opposing faction, I was just wondering if toady was going to add that alongside the new hearth orders to bandit groups soon since they never seem to give you orders (within the next couple patches, because they feel a bit dry) I am also aware hes going to hit on it a bit with the artifact/myth stuff . I should have worded myself better.
Post by: burned on January 13, 2016, 04:34:16 pm
If I were to take a guess, even though the thief role is "lower" on the development, the framework for the Fortress Starting Scenarios covers things like "law, custom, rights, property and status" and "explicit standing of different citizens vs. civilization authorities" - which may or may not bleed over into adventure mode forcing those sorts of things sooner rather than later.
Exciting stuff!
Post by: cochramd on January 14, 2016, 11:44:49 am
Assembling instruments is made in the craftdwarf's workshop, which uses a whole bunch of different skills depending on what you make and the material(s) used, so cochramd's question is quite relevant. I suspect the answer is whatever skill was used to create the instrument body, based on some vague recollection of that having been stated/suggested. A definite answer would be useful, though.I did some !SCIENCE! on the matter and updated the wiki; just check the bottom of the page on instruments.
Yesterday I found myself pondering the following question: Will randomly generated sexual fetishes ever be incorporated into DF? I then immediately realized that this was not something I wished to continue pondering and applied the brakes to that train of thought. Somewhere between applying the brakes and sending that train of thought into reverse, I realized that I could joke about BDSM being a hard fetish to appease in DF because while we can make chains and oil, whips are not a native weapon......and are absolutely fucking lethal because they're made out of metal and not leather.
Post by: iceball3 on January 14, 2016, 11:50:01 am
I think it'll mostly be kept to vague or indirect preferences, as we're not modeling sex to a highly specific degree anyway. As it is, copulation is literally just two units bumping into each other once or twice, and that's probably as specific as it'll get.Assembling instruments is made in the craftdwarf's workshop, which uses a whole bunch of different skills depending on what you make and the material(s) used, so cochramd's question is quite relevant. I suspect the answer is whatever skill was used to create the instrument body, based on some vague recollection of that having been stated/suggested. A definite answer would be useful, though.I did some !SCIENCE! on the matter and updated the wiki; just check the bottom of the page on instruments.
Yesterday I found myself pondering the following question: Will randomly generated sexual fetishes ever be incorporated into DF? I then immediately realized that this was not something I wished to continue pondering and applied the brakes to that train of thought. Somewhere between applying the brakes and sending that train of thought into reverse, I realized that I could joke about BDSM being a hard fetish to appease in DF because while we can make chains and oil, whips are not a native weapon......and are absolutely fucking lethal because they're made out of metal and not leather.
Post by: Dirst on January 14, 2016, 12:53:45 pm
I think it'll mostly be kept to vague or indirect preferences, as we're not modeling sex to a highly specific degree anyway. As it is, copulation is literally just two units bumping into each other once or twice, and that's probably as specific as it'll get.But dwarves don't even have the BP_BUMP interaction...
Post by: Button on January 14, 2016, 12:59:03 pm
I think it'll mostly be kept to vague or indirect preferences, as we're not modeling sex to a highly specific degree anyway. As it is, copulation is literally just two units bumping into each other once or twice, and that's probably as specific as it'll get.But dwarves don't even have the BP_BUMP interaction...
... BP_BUMP is a greeting interaction.
AGH DIRST WHY DID YOU PUT THIS IN MY HEAD
Post by: Dirst on January 14, 2016, 01:35:58 pm
Post by: cochramd on January 14, 2016, 01:38:26 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 14, 2016, 02:13:38 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 14, 2016, 04:09:46 pm
Assembling instruments is made in the craftdwarf's workshop, which uses a whole bunch of different skills depending on what you make and the material(s) used, so cochramd's question is quite relevant. I suspect the answer is whatever skill was used to create the instrument body, based on some vague recollection of that having been stated/suggested. A definite answer would be useful, though.I did some !SCIENCE! on the matter and updated the wiki; just check the bottom of the page on instruments.
:
:
Thanks for the reference! Just to show that I've looked at it I can pick a nit: Leatherworking seems to be a possible assembly craft as well, and should probably be added to the footnote.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 14, 2016, 05:22:24 pm
Apologies if they actually exist and I've just missed them so far.
Post by: TheFlame52 on January 14, 2016, 05:41:26 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on January 14, 2016, 05:44:48 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 14, 2016, 06:48:29 pm
For that matter, Do you have any plans to make races other than dwarves playable?That's on the development page (including goblins and organizing raiding parties and such).
Post by: cochramd on January 14, 2016, 07:46:31 pm
Oh, did I miss that? I better go fix it.Assembling instruments is made in the craftdwarf's workshop, which uses a whole bunch of different skills depending on what you make and the material(s) used, so cochramd's question is quite relevant. I suspect the answer is whatever skill was used to create the instrument body, based on some vague recollection of that having been stated/suggested. A definite answer would be useful, though.I did some !SCIENCE! on the matter and updated the wiki; just check the bottom of the page on instruments.
:
:
Thanks for the reference! Just to show that I've looked at it I can pick a nit: Leatherworking seems to be a possible assembly craft as well, and should probably be added to the footnote.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on January 15, 2016, 12:24:10 pm
Post by: Dirst on January 15, 2016, 12:29:56 pm
In DF, scrolling a mouse's scroll wheel forward zooms the map out, and scrolling it backwards zooms it in. This is the opposite of most applications- why is this, and are there any plans to change it?The default is odd, but those are keybinds for "button 4" and "button 5" that you can change if you like.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 15, 2016, 05:31:10 pm
First thing I change with every new install. Since no-one ever remarked that it was strange I had assumed my mouse was the problem...In DF, scrolling a mouse's scroll wheel forward zooms the map out, and scrolling it backwards zooms it in. This is the opposite of most applications- why is this, and are there any plans to change it?The default is odd, but those are keybinds for "button 4" and "button 5" that you can change if you like.
Post by: Rose on January 15, 2016, 09:34:58 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on January 16, 2016, 02:06:48 am
Post by: TheFlame52 on January 16, 2016, 09:40:20 am
Post by: HiddenEyes056 on January 16, 2016, 10:14:14 am
If this is currently possible, or if there is a similiar work-around, I would love to know too.
Post by: lethosor on January 16, 2016, 11:48:20 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 18, 2016, 12:43:58 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 18, 2016, 09:40:54 am
Now that 42.05 is a thing, are giant desert scorpions back yet?Doesn't look like it.
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 18, 2016, 02:06:38 pm
Well, wound up re-adding them to Adventurecraft at least.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 18, 2016, 04:24:51 pm
1) At present, while the raws encompass a great deal, a number of elements remain either hardcoded (e.g. randomized creatures and Vanilla workshops) or placed elsewhere (e.g. boasts). Might we see any of these (with the obvious exception of clowns) moved to the raws in the near future?
2) And speaking of randomized creatures, I did a little test recently: I genned a world with 1000 types of werebeasts, and searched the uncompressed save with a hex-editor. I found that werereptile-curses are considerably more common (28 was the least amount I saw for a given animal, and it seemed common for them to be in the 40's) than weremammal or weremarsupial-ones (both of which seem to have between 8 and 15 of a given animal). And that's not counting werelizard-curses, which are in a league of their own with a whopping 138 instances. What gives?
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 18, 2016, 04:57:44 pm
2) I'd retry the world generation a number of times before trying to draw conclusions. Firstly, (pseudo)random chances being what they are, with a large enough set you'll get outliers. Also, I suspect some deities are more curse prone than others, and it wouldn't be strange if these deities had were curse preferences. Thus, I'd not just count the raw number of weres of each type, but also who cursed them into what. Multiple worlds would generate multiple sets of gods to offend.
Post by: Knight Otu on January 18, 2016, 05:00:58 pm
Probably not near future, though I imagine there's some small chance to get something out into the raws during the myth generation. But over time, more and more hardcoded elements should find their way into the raws, since that's an explicit goal (Including the randomized critters and thus the demons).
1) At present, while the raws encompass a great deal, a number of elements remain either hardcoded (e.g. randomized creatures and Vanilla workshops) or placed elsewhere (e.g. boasts). Might we see any of these (with the obvious exception of clowns) moved to the raws in the near future?
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 18, 2016, 05:24:07 pm
@Urlance Woolsbane:I should clarify: I was referring to the number of curse interactions and corresponding werebeast-types in the .DAT file, not the werecreature populations. Deities shouldn't come into it.
2) I'd retry the world generation a number of times before trying to draw conclusions. Firstly, (pseudo)random chances being what they are, with a large enough set you'll get outliers. Also, I suspect some deities are more curse prone than others, and it wouldn't be strange if these deities had were curse preferences. Thus, I'd not just count the raw number of weres of each type, but also who cursed them into what. Multiple worlds would generate multiple sets of gods to offend.
As for outliers, sure, that's a possibility, but the patterns I noticed were rather too consistent, methinks. And I don't think that werelizard-curses being more than three times as common as anything else I noticed is a statistical fluke (not to mention I'd noticed their frequency in the Arena.)
EDIT: I generated two more worlds, and the results were quite similar. Werelizard-curses were in the 130's in both, and the lowest amount for a reptile-curse I saw was 24. The lowest I saw for a mammal-curse was 5.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on January 18, 2016, 06:15:21 pm
Post by: malvado on January 18, 2016, 08:10:01 pm
Post by: Dirst on January 18, 2016, 09:31:05 pm
Any chances Workshops could get to use Wheelbarrows for picking up items?There's a blurry line between development questions and game suggestions, but this has veered pretty cleanly onto the suggestion side. Toady does read at least the first couple posts of each suggestion thread.
This means that thread owners over there really ought to make an effort to summarize the state of the debate in your OP.
Post by: Bumber on January 18, 2016, 09:46:32 pm
2) And speaking of randomized creatures, I did a little test recently: I genned a world with 1000 types of werebeasts, and searched the uncompressed save with a hex-editor. I found that werereptile-curses are considerably more common (28 was the least amount I saw for a given animal, and it seemed common for them to be in the 40's) than weremammal or weremarsupial-ones (both of which seem to have between 8 and 15 of a given animal). And that's not counting werelizard-curses, which are in a league of their own with a whopping 138 instances. What gives?
New stuff:)
(*) A few lizards
(I suspect by recently you didn't mean 42.05, though.)
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 18, 2016, 10:08:09 pm
Actually, I did mean 42.05, though I doubt the presence of a few new lizard-species has anything to do with this. Certainly, werelizards were already absurdly common in the Arena, in prior versions.2) And speaking of randomized creatures, I did a little test recently: I genned a world with 1000 types of werebeasts, and searched the uncompressed save with a hex-editor. I found that werereptile-curses are considerably more common (28 was the least amount I saw for a given animal, and it seemed common for them to be in the 40's) than weremammal or weremarsupial-ones (both of which seem to have between 8 and 15 of a given animal). And that's not counting werelizard-curses, which are in a league of their own with a whopping 138 instances. What gives?New stuff:)
(*) A few lizards
(I suspect by recently you didn't mean 42.05, though.)
Post by: Abadrausar on January 19, 2016, 05:32:55 am
RFC: generic variations
Procedural generation in Dwarf Fortress (DF) and modding possibilities are both leading in their respective categories, this makes DF deep and immersive.
We should have generic variations for each one of the DF objects (Ammo, Armor, Building, Body, Body_detail_plan, Bodygloss, Creature, Variation, Entity, Item, Interaction, Language, Material, Plant, Position, Syndrome, Tissue, Tool, Trap, Unit, Weapon, World, ...)
Why? better reuse of prototypes in modding, and almost all the necessary code is already there because nothing in the contextual lexical substitutions done by the variations is specifically and inherently vinculated to the creature prototypes.
If we are going this way, a syntax modification for the variations to indicate the kind of object that is being variated is also proposed.
Some examples of what we could do implementing this proposal:
Code: [Select]
[OBJECT:VARIATION]
[VARIATION:PLANT:SPROUTING]
[REMOVE_TAG:NAME]
[REMOVE_TAG:NAME_PLURAL]
[REMOVE_TAG:ADJ]
[CONVERT_TAG]
[MASTER:GROWDUR]
[TARGET:300]
[REPLACEMENT:60]
[CONVERT_TAG]
[MASTER:GROWDUR]
[TARGET:500]
[REPLACEMENT:100]
[CONVERT_TAG]
[MASTER:CLUSTERSIZE]
[TARGET:5]
[REPLACEMENT:1]
This could be used as:Code: [Select]
[PLANT:SPROUTING_MUSHROOM_HELMET_PLUMP]
[COPY_TAGS_FROM:PLANT:MUSHROOM_HELMET_PLUMP]
[APPLY_VARIATION:PLANT:SPROUTING]
[REMOVE_TAG:SEED]
[APPLY_CURRENT_VARIATION]
[GO_TO_END]
[SELECT_NESTED:ALL]
[GO_TO_START]
[SEED:plump helmet sproutings spawn:plump helmet sproutings spawn:4:0:1:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:SEED]
[ALL_NAMES:plump helmet sproutings]
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on January 19, 2016, 05:51:56 am
Procedural generation in Dwarf Fortress (DF) and modding possibilities are both leading in their respective categories, this makes DF deep and immersive.
We should have generic variations for each one of the DF objects (Ammo, Armor, Building, Body, Body_detail_plan, Bodygloss, Creature, Variation, Entity, Item, Interaction, Language, Material, Plant, Position, Syndrome, Tissue, Tool, Trap, Unit, Weapon, World, ...)
Why? better reuse of prototypes in modding, and almost all the necessary code is already there because nothing in the contextual lexical substitutions done by the variations is specifically and inherently vinculated to the creature prototypes.
If we are going this way, a syntax modification for the variations to indicate the kind of object that is being variated is also proposed.
Some examples of what we could do:Code: [Select][OBJECT:VARIATION]This could be used as:
[VARIATION:PLANT:SPROUTING]
[REMOVE_TAG:NAME]
[REMOVE_TAG:NAME_PLURAL]
[REMOVE_TAG:ADJ]
[CONVERT_TAG]
[MASTER:GROWDUR]
[TARGET:300]
[REPLACEMENT:60]
[CONVERT_TAG]
[MASTER:GROWDUR]
[TARGET:500]
[REPLACEMENT:100]
[CONVERT_TAG]
[MASTER:CLUSTERSIZE]
[TARGET:5]
[REPLACEMENT:1]Code: [Select][PLANT:SPROUTING_MUSHROOM_HELMET_PLUMP]
[COPY_TAGS_FROM:PLANT:MUSHROOM_HELMET_PLUMP]
[APPLY_VARIATION:PLANT:SPROUTING]
[REMOVE_TAG:SEED]
[APPLY_CURRENT_VARIATION]
[GO_TO_END]
[SELECT_NESTED:ALL]
[GO_TO_START]
[SEED:plump helmet sproutings spawn:plump helmet sproutings spawn:4:0:1:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:SEED]
[ALL_NAMES:plump helmet sproutings]
Shouldn't this go to the suggestions forum?
Post by: Dirst on January 19, 2016, 06:01:41 am
Post by: Abadrausar on January 19, 2016, 06:22:40 am
Might fit well into this particular corner (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155555.0) of the Suggestions forum.Well my point of view is that the hard work of implementing lexical substitution of tokens has been already done by Toady One, but then, this has been artificially restricted to only work for objects of kind creature, as I do not see why. So, I ask if the proposed evolution (Future of the fortress ;D :P) could land sometime in a distant future...
Or maybe, make clear why only the objects of kind creature have been considered for variations.
More of a modification of tokens that already exist than adding new tokens but well...
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 19, 2016, 11:51:19 am
Might fit well into this particular corner (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155555.0) of the Suggestions forum.Well my point of view is that the hard work of implementing lexical substitution of tokens has been already done by Toady One, but then, this has been artificially restricted to only work for objects of kind creature, as I do not see why. So, I ask if the proposed evolution (Future of the fortress ;D :P) could land sometime in a distant future...
Or maybe, make clear why only the objects of kind creature have been considered for variations.More of a modification of tokens that already exist than adding new tokens but well...
Perhaps you should have worded it as a question instead of a...order.
+1 for moving it to the suggestions forum.
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 19, 2016, 11:55:27 am
First, one reply you made implies that adventurers no longer being able to commit cannibalism and craft things (if modded in) from sentient body parts ( see issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171) ) was not intended behavior. Was that implication correct, or did I misunderstand something?
Second, are giant desert scorpions officially gone for good, or is the idea of re-adding them them just on hold for the moment?
Post by: Putnam on January 19, 2016, 12:14:12 pm
Might fit well into this particular corner (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155555.0) of the Suggestions forum.Well my point of view is that the hard work of implementing lexical substitution of tokens has been already done by Toady One, but then, this has been artificially restricted to only work for objects of kind creature, as I do not see why. So, I ask if the proposed evolution (Future of the fortress ;D :P) could land sometime in a distant future...
Or maybe, make clear why only the objects of kind creature have been considered for variations.More of a modification of tokens that already exist than adding new tokens but well...
Modifications are just as much suggestions as additions.
Post by: Knight Otu on January 19, 2016, 01:00:44 pm
Second, are giant desert scorpions officially gone for good, or is the idea of re-adding them them just on hold for the moment?Some kind of giant scorpion is coming, as stated in the file changes file. Just because that didn't happen at the first opportunity doesn't mean it's never going to happen.
Post by: cochramd on January 19, 2016, 04:07:31 pm
Everyone, start praying to Armok that we're getting war-trainable giant blind cave scorpions with venom of equal potency to giant desert scorpions, because I hate to pray to Armok alone.Second, are giant desert scorpions officially gone for good, or is the idea of re-adding them them just on hold for the moment?Some kind of giant scorpion is coming, as stated in the file changes file. Just because that didn't happen at the first opportunity doesn't mean it's never going to happen.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 19, 2016, 06:38:31 pm
Mind if I swipe that idea?Everyone, start praying to Armok that we're getting war-trainable giant blind cave scorpions with venom of equal potency to giant desert scorpions, because I hate to pray to Armok alone.Second, are giant desert scorpions officially gone for good, or is the idea of re-adding them them just on hold for the moment?Some kind of giant scorpion is coming, as stated in the file changes file. Just because that didn't happen at the first opportunity doesn't mean it's never going to happen.
Post by: domanite on January 19, 2016, 07:44:28 pm
Microsoft recently added support for using Clang as the compiler front-end for MSVC:Quote from: Japawhat compiler will you be using for the eventual 64bit DF?
Right now the plan is to use the MSVC that people suggested for Windows (2013 community, or whatever), and the test program worked with that. I have no idea what the linux/mac configurations are or how it would work there.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2015/12/04/introducing-clang-with-microsoft-codegen-in-vs-2015-update-1.aspx
Clang is cross-platform, so code written to it should be compile-able for all platforms. (knock on wood.)
Post by: cochramd on January 19, 2016, 10:40:39 pm
Go right ahead.Mind if I swipe that idea?Everyone, start praying to Armok that we're getting war-trainable giant blind cave scorpions with venom of equal potency to giant desert scorpions, because I hate to pray to Armok alone.Second, are giant desert scorpions officially gone for good, or is the idea of re-adding them them just on hold for the moment?Some kind of giant scorpion is coming, as stated in the file changes file. Just because that didn't happen at the first opportunity doesn't mean it's never going to happen.
Dear Toady, what in Armok's name is a frilly turban and can it fit under a helm? I can't any information on it anywhere, not even in the raws.
Post by: quekwoambojish on January 20, 2016, 02:59:35 am
Post by: Bumber on January 20, 2016, 03:29:50 am
Dear Toady, what in Armok's name is a frilly turban and can it fit under a helm? I can't any information on it anywhere, not even in the raws.It's a turban made of HFS fabric, and yes.
Post by: Bumber on January 20, 2016, 10:04:56 am
Quote
What's the reason for removing zombie wrestling? Is it difficulty, or because they were doing weird stuff with it (e.g., joint locks?) The stereotypical zombie, as I've seen them portrayed, congregates in a crowd of grasping arms. The difficulty should already be mitigated by the running and strength nerf.
Not saying they have to be stereotypical zombies, but it's a behavior that makes sense. If zombies are creatures of instinct, then primates are prone to grasping things.
Post by: cochramd on January 20, 2016, 01:17:47 pm
I got mine as an artifact made from cave spider silk actually, but it's a relief to know that it fits snuggly under a helm just like a normal turban to provide just a little extra protection for my militia commander's head. It's a shame, really, that we can't make turbans of our own, or else they'd be part of every soldier's gear. The thing is, though, I cannot for the life of me picture what a "frilly turban" looks like, and Google has failed to help me in such matters. Also, I read on the wiki that such HFS clothing is associated with certain spheres....do we know which spheres are associated with "frilly"?Dear Toady, what in Armok's name is a frilly turban and can it fit under a helm? I can't any information on it anywhere, not even in the raws.It's a turban made of HFS fabric, and yes.
Toady: A while back, you said that giving players control over what imagery was producing in statues, figurines, engravings, etc was on the to-do list. How far down the to-do list is it right now? I ask because I'm sick of the majority of engravings in my fortress being of political events, the creation of masterwork crafts and Rismal Dineddishes, that one fucking human who went on four or more fucking journeys through the Slow Forests taming giant lice on the second journey and taming giant dingoes on the fourth before becoming the ruler of the human civilization nearest to my current fort. (By the way, the engravings of Rismal never told me he became the leader of the human civilization and I never looked at the civ screen for them. I only knew he was leader because one year the human diplomat told me that his (the diplomat's) grandchild had become leader, replacing old Rismal. It gave me.....feels. Keep working your magic, Toady).
Post by: UristMcTruman on January 20, 2016, 01:19:10 pm
In your mental representation of those creatures, do Eagle Women have breasts?
Post by: Dirst on January 20, 2016, 01:22:12 pm
Hi Toady! Probably a stupid question, but...My guess for an animal person would be has.breasts=NOT(lays.eggs)
In your mental representation of those creatures, do Eagle Women have breasts?
Post by: UristMcTruman on January 20, 2016, 01:24:22 pm
Post by: cochramd on January 20, 2016, 01:27:20 pm
What about the platypus? :DI doubt it.
Quote
The newly hatched young are vulnerable, blind, and hairless, and are fed by the mother's milk. Although possessing mammary glands, the platypus lacks teats. Instead, milk is released through pores in the skin. The milk pools in grooves on her abdomen, allowing the young to lap it up.
Post by: Dirst on January 20, 2016, 01:28:27 pm
What about the platypus? :DDirst cancels glib answer: world too damned complicated
Post by: UristMcTruman on January 20, 2016, 01:30:10 pm
That will do perfectly. No need for teats. Teats are not safe for work.
Breasts without teats are still graphically acceptable.
Post by: Dirst on January 20, 2016, 01:33:17 pm
"mammary glands"It actually makes a difference in this case. The NSFW stuff should have been spoilered though.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on January 22, 2016, 09:31:06 pm
I didn't answer this before because I thought somebody else would show up and answer it better, but any items like "frilly turban", "blocky greaves", or "rounded gauntlets" are items generated on an individual world basis for use by angels. It's made out of divine metal cloth, which might be what was meant by HFS fabric, but I've never heard HFS fabric before and to me that sounds more like candy or clown silk. Divine metal is about half as good as adamantine, yet still a good bit above steel, and is also generated for each world with names like shimmering metal or glistening metal. The stats are always the same though. I don't know if it was ever experimented on how they behave in comparison to the item they're named after, which, considering the thread we're in Are the divinely generated armor and weapons identical to the items they're named after? Standard turbans can fit over helms fine though, and I do believe they would be put over helms not under, but the armor layers work either way.Dear Toady, what in Armok's name is a frilly turban and can it fit under a helm? I can't any information on it anywhere, not even in the raws.It's a turban made of HFS fabric, and yes.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 23, 2016, 06:40:18 am
Edit: Removed obsolete room statement above.
Edit 2: And corrected version reference...
Edit 3: This is getting messy: My gremlin did apply for citizenship directly and moved from the tavern room to a fortress one when it was approved, and immediately started to perform hauling. However, one of my dorfs is trying to train her, but she now ignores training and rather hauls stuff, drinks, sleeps, and goes back to hauling. Removed the Toady indication, since it's basically there already and bug corrections/tweaks seams to be what remains (I'll write a bug report, though).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 23, 2016, 07:57:58 am
Post by: Max™ on January 23, 2016, 08:41:46 am
As I recall they were the same stats as the vanilla items, but not modded ones.I didn't answer this before because I thought somebody else would show up and answer it better, but any items like "frilly turban", "blocky greaves", or "rounded gauntlets" are items generated on an individual world basis for use by angels. It's made out of divine metal cloth, which might be what was meant by HFS fabric, but I've never heard HFS fabric before and to me that sounds more like candy or clown silk. Divine metal is about half as good as adamantine, yet still a good bit above steel, and is also generated for each world with names like shimmering metal or glistening metal. The stats are always the same though. I don't know if it was ever experimented on how they behave in comparison to the item they're named after, which, considering the thread we're in Are the divinely generated armor and weapons identical to the items they're named after? Standard turbans can fit over helms fine though, and I do believe they would be put over helms not under, but the armor layers work either way.Dear Toady, what in Armok's name is a frilly turban and can it fit under a helm? I can't any information on it anywhere, not even in the raws.It's a turban made of HFS fabric, and yes.
Easiest way to see is something like a weapon where you removed the flat/shaft attacks from something like a battle axe in your raws but the divine metal versions still have them.
Post by: Dirst on January 23, 2016, 03:28:33 pm
Gremlins are an odd case that's become even more out of place with multi race fortresses. They can appointed as nobles and elected mayors that even make demands, but you can't see their demands [at least in 0.40.24]. You can't make clothes for them, but they now drink booze using cups. They are considered animals and can be butchered, yet they appear to be a lot more intelligent than e.g. trolls, and dance, sing, recite poetry read books, etc. What are the plans regarding them? Will they be moved to the fortress citizen category (e.g. by having tamed gremlins apply for residence and then get moved from the tame animal category, and then have them apply for full citizenship, or possibly fast track them to full citizenship via an automatically generated 'petition' once tamed), or demoted to mere animals? I guess the answer might be tied to how "wild" animal people populations and captives from them are to be treated?Gremlins are an odd creature to have in Dwarf Fortress anyway, since they are a thoroughly modern bit of folklore that emerged in the 1920s. A combination of unreliable aircraft and high altitudes combined to generate some convincing hallucinations of nasty little creatures sabotaging the planes.
Edit: Removed obsolete room statement above.
Edit 2: And corrected version reference...
Anachronism aside, gremlins ought to be a natural enemy of the mechanically inclined dwarves... I just wish there was a medieval equivalent to use for a better name.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 23, 2016, 10:17:39 pm
Gremlins are an odd creature to have in Dwarf Fortress anyway, since they are a thoroughly modern bit of folklore that emerged in the 1920s. A combination of unreliable aircraft and high altitudes combined to generate some convincing hallucinations of nasty little creatures sabotaging the planes."It ain't Wendell Willkie!" :P
Anachronism aside, gremlins ought to be a natural enemy of the mechanically inclined dwarves... I just wish there was a medieval equivalent to use for a better name.
Thanks to Ultima, my conception of Gremlins is as food-stealers. But I agree that the mechanical aspect of their lore is much more suited to Dwarf Fortress. It would be cool if they had some variation on the BUILDING_DESTROYER tag, that only affected constructions made with mechanisms.
As for alternative names, what about "Brownie," "Urisk," or "Hob"?
Post by: Dirst on January 23, 2016, 11:41:36 pm
As for alternative names, what about "Brownie," "Urisk," or "Hob"?I think Kilmoulis would be closer, because a Brownie is more associated with households and an Urisk with the wilderness, while a Kilmoulis typically inhabits a mill.
Post by: ragundo on January 24, 2016, 07:11:00 am
I'm trying to understand the way that nobility, trading and diplomacy are exported in Legends mode. They all use entity_site_links to connect entities to world sites.
entity_site_link has a int32 undocumented field, the 7th one, that seems to be a flags field, could you detail the meaning of those flags fields or at leat the following ones?
bit 00->(mask 0x001) related to trading
bit 01->(mask 0x002) related to nobility
bit 03->(mask 0x004) related to trading
bit 04->(mask 0x008) related to trading
bit 17->(mask 0x200) related to nobility
bit 18->(mask 0x400) related to nobility
bit 19->(mask 0x800) related to nobility
Thanks
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 24, 2016, 08:03:05 am
Post by: ragundo on January 24, 2016, 08:45:05 am
@ragundo: I recommend painting your question in green (any green will do) by updating your post, as the green color is a signal to Toady to read them (allowing him to skip or skim over the surrounding forumite chatter).
Thanks. It's my first time asking here.
Post by: LordBaal on January 26, 2016, 05:28:32 am
Post by: Mr S on January 26, 2016, 11:08:21 am
Post by: cochramd on January 26, 2016, 11:19:32 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 26, 2016, 12:06:28 pm
Quote
Then I added adjectives in the announcement names of people when you don't know their names, so the combat logs etc. aren't so ambiguous. It uses their most prominent feature (either the body shape or a specific part)... except for long hair, since I haven't made most people cut their hair yet.
So next time I run into bandits with distinctive noses and ears, I'll know to target them first. Actually, wait. This leads to a question.
If you meet an unnamed character identified by a distinctive feature that can be severed (nose, ears, etc), what happens to their descriptive adjective if you lop the identifying part off? Does it pick the next available feature, replace it with "the guy with a missing nose" instead, completely fail to update the identifier, crash, or what? o3o
Post by: Dirst on January 26, 2016, 12:23:37 pm
Oh that is amusing.This is human with a long nose's nose.QuoteThen I added adjectives in the announcement names of people when you don't know their names, so the combat logs etc. aren't so ambiguous. It uses their most prominent feature (either the body shape or a specific part)... except for long hair, since I haven't made most people cut their hair yet.
So next time I run into bandits with distinctive noses and ears, I'll know to target them first. Actually, wait. This leads to a question.
If you meet an unnamed character identified by a distinctive feature that can be severed (nose, ears, etc), what happens to their descriptive adjective if you lop the identifying part off? Does it pick the next available feature, replace it with "the guy with a missing nose" instead, completely fail to update the identifier, crash, or what? o3o
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 26, 2016, 05:05:32 pm
Missing body parts adjectives could be 'noseless', 'one-armed', 'neutered', etc.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 26, 2016, 05:49:53 pm
Reminds me of The Hobbit adventure game where every goblin had his own adjective. The nasty goblin enters, the hideous goblin goes south, the disgusting goblin attacks Thorin, with one well placed blow cleaves his skull, Gandalf says 'hurry up'...happy days. :)Urist McMonarch cancels attack, singing about gold.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 26, 2016, 06:13:20 pm
Could continue quoting this all day, but I sense Toady's pale bulbous eyes staring at us. Time to move on. Wait. Wait...Reminds me of The Hobbit adventure game where every goblin had his own adjective. The nasty goblin enters, the hideous goblin goes south, the disgusting goblin attacks Thorin, with one well placed blow cleaves his skull, Gandalf says 'hurry up'...happy days. :)Urist McMonarch cancels attack, singing about gold.
:)
Post by: Vattic on January 26, 2016, 07:51:16 pm
Reminds me of The Hobbit adventure game where every goblin had his own adjective. The nasty goblin enters, the hideous goblin goes south, the disgusting goblin attacks Thorin, with one well placed blow cleaves his skull, Gandalf says 'hurry up'...happy days. :)That last example makes me wonder how we know? I guess it falls into the same category as the extreme detail about all the internal damage we do to our enemies, but then we don't know their name.
Missing body parts adjectives could be 'noseless', 'one-armed', 'neutered', etc.
Post by: Amperzand on January 26, 2016, 08:15:09 pm
Post by: Edward_Tohr on January 26, 2016, 08:33:09 pm
Missing body parts adjectives could be 'noseless', 'one-armed', 'neutered', etc.
I'd be okay with the leading cause of adventurer death being "The noseless, eyeless, earless one-armed, one-legged human x♂x punches you in the head, and the injured part explodes in gore!" :P
Post by: Bumber on January 27, 2016, 10:27:50 am
I'm looking forward to decorating rooms with relevant engravings: temples will be covered in imagery of deities, barracks will be covered in imagery of battles and noble rooms will be covered in imagery of those nobles. It's a damned shame that there's no sort of engravings good for taverns or libraries.Cheese and artifacts/history, respectively. Or just cheese everywhere.
Post by: Button on January 27, 2016, 10:31:52 am
I'm looking forward to decorating rooms with relevant engravings: temples will be covered in imagery of deities, barracks will be covered in imagery of battles and noble rooms will be covered in imagery of those nobles. It's a damned shame that there's no sort of engravings good for taverns or libraries.
I've gotten a whole bunch of scholars writing books, for libraries. And taverns can have masterwork prepared meals or, as Bumber says, cheeses.
I've also received a couple engravings of historical festivals, which would also make sense for taverns, depending on what the festival is.
Post by: LordBaal on January 27, 2016, 12:29:48 pm
I'm looking forward to decorating rooms with relevant engravings: temples will be covered in imagery of deities, barracks will be covered in imagery of battles and noble rooms will be covered in imagery of those nobles. It's a damned shame that there's no sort of engravings good for taverns or libraries.(http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzopmk6QOU1rq0wemo1_1280.jpg)
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on January 27, 2016, 06:07:19 pm
(Never forget...)
Post by: cochramd on January 27, 2016, 07:27:03 pm
I hope Toady is reading all this and taking notes.
Post by: LordBaal on January 28, 2016, 06:05:20 am
Post by: SimRobert2001 on January 28, 2016, 06:16:49 am
Could we get to actually make flags and tapestry(or whatever those things that hangs from the wall are called) with our fortress simbols now?
Questions in green, please.
Post by: LordBaal on January 28, 2016, 06:56:48 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 28, 2016, 09:26:38 am
Post by: cephalo on January 28, 2016, 09:58:00 am
Post by: LordBaal on January 28, 2016, 10:18:42 am
Post by: NJW2000 on January 28, 2016, 12:46:20 pm
I think that with calmer dwarves, more
Post by: Just Some Guy on January 28, 2016, 07:35:07 pm
I mean, this seems like it would be a really useful tool for modders.
Post by: Greiger on January 28, 2016, 09:14:56 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 28, 2016, 09:33:56 pm
A theoretical answer to the banner question would be that when/if decorations like show cases, banners, tapestries, red carpets.red carpetscarpets
Given that I can already envision a production chain (specifically plant thread, which can be intercepted and dyed before arriving, goes to a craftshop where a clothier/sub-crafter type assembles it) carpets as a idea and a use in raising value seems like a logical point of decoration not explored upon within the game.
Does the future hold any *planned* developments where we can make our own non-carved natural wall embellishments such as the subject matter of carpets i mentioned above? ETC - Signage , IE - wooden and metal iconographic signs with different individual decoration rules *via workshop decoration modification*) but essentially work like tag on engravings, or carpets layered over floors detailing events as dictated or nothing at all.
Post by: burned on January 29, 2016, 02:25:28 am
A theoretical answer to the banner question would be that when/if decorations like show cases, banners, tapestries, red carpets.red carpetscarpets
Given that I can already envision a production chain (specifically plant thread, which can be intercepted and dyed before arriving, goes to a craftshop where a clothier/sub-crafter type assembles it) carpets as a idea and a use in raising value seems like a logical point of decoration not explored upon within the game.
Does the future hold any *planned* developments where we can make our own non-carved natural wall embellishments such as the subject matter of carpets i mentioned above? ETC - Signage , IE - wooden and metal iconographic signs with different individual decoration rules *via workshop decoration modification*) but essentially work like tag on engravings, or carpets layered over floors detailing events as dictated or nothing at all.
DF Talk #8 around the 1hr and 25min mark:
Toady: [] ... so I'd like to have ... the humans civilizations for example, it would be lame if they all had the same architecture, once I refresh my memory on what are the bits and pieces that make up the different architectures, what kind of different buildings there are and all that kind of stuff, they should make choices, then, and be able to have the towns have different characters to them when they make their walls or just their houses and various castles and little parapet things, and little spikes that stick out of the top with little flags on them, and minarets and all that kind of thing or whatever. As much diversity as you've got in the real world, as much as we can convey with a tile based format, that stuff should come across, it's one of those things where you have to engage in the project at some point and actually do it, and it's hard to time things which are superfluous in a sense, but they should be done. At first things will look vanilla, just as we get people to have walls properly and moats and tapestries and rugs and things, just making the towns look better, but as we get enough information to allow them to diversify then they should be able to do that, hopefully. (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_8_transcript.html)
Post by: thatkid on January 29, 2016, 05:45:41 am
Basically when can I reenact the classic trope of murdering someone's loved ones in front of them, extolling the virtues of power and martial prowess to them, and then having them hunt me down years later once they're ready to take me on?
Post by: ZM5 on January 29, 2016, 01:08:54 pm
Will we see backup weapons as an option? For example, you could have a squad of marksdwarves that uses crossbows as normal when at a certain range away from the opponent, but uses daggers or short swords if an opponent gets too close or if they run out of ammo.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 29, 2016, 01:32:24 pm
A theoretical answer to the banner question would be that when/if decorations like show cases, banners, tapestries, red carpets.red carpetscarpets
Given that I can already envision a production chain (specifically plant thread, which can be intercepted and dyed before arriving, goes to a craftshop where a clothier/sub-crafter type assembles it) carpets as a idea and a use in raising value seems like a logical point of decoration not explored upon within the game.
Does the future hold any *planned* developments where we can make our own non-carved natural wall embellishments such as the subject matter of carpets i mentioned above? ETC - Signage , IE - wooden and metal iconographic signs with different individual decoration rules *via workshop decoration modification*) but essentially work like tag on engravings, or carpets layered over floors detailing events as dictated or nothing at all.
DF Talk #8 around the 1hr and 25min mark:
Toady: [] ... so I'd like to have ... the humans civilizations for example, it would be lame if they all had the same architecture, once I refresh my memory on what are the bits and pieces that make up the different architectures, what kind of different buildings there are and all that kind of stuff, they should make choices, then, and be able to have the towns have different characters to them when they make their walls or just their houses and various castles and little parapet things, and little spikes that stick out of the top with little flags on them, and minarets and all that kind of thing or whatever. As much diversity as you've got in the real world, as much as we can convey with a tile based format, that stuff should come across, it's one of those things where you have to engage in the project at some point and actually do it, and it's hard to time things which are superfluous in a sense, but they should be done. At first things will look vanilla, just as we get people to have walls properly and moats and tapestries and rugs and things, just making the towns look better, but as we get enough information to allow them to diversify then they should be able to do that, hopefully. (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_8_transcript.html)
Ah excellent, thanks.
Post by: Mr S on January 29, 2016, 02:59:06 pm
A question regarding squads...
Will we see backup weapons as an option? For example, you could have a squad of marksdwarves that uses crossbows as normal when at a certain range away from the opponent, but uses daggers or short swords if an opponent gets too close or if they run out of ammo.
You've been able to assign multiple weapons to a squad kit for some time, with a bit of micromanaging. Getting the dwarves to think about using them is another matter entirely. In the example above, the "empty" crossbows use the Hammerdwarf skill when used as a melee weapon. A combat rewrite would be needed for the intended results.
Post by: iceball3 on January 29, 2016, 05:05:12 pm
Would it be more viable to do it with crossbow dwarves that only spar using daggers, and do isolate live target training? Or will they still prefer crossbow bashing if they have knife user skill?A question regarding squads...
Will we see backup weapons as an option? For example, you could have a squad of marksdwarves that uses crossbows as normal when at a certain range away from the opponent, but uses daggers or short swords if an opponent gets too close or if they run out of ammo.
You've been able to assign multiple weapons to a squad kit for some time, with a bit of micromanaging. Getting the dwarves to think about using them is another matter entirely. In the example above, the "empty" crossbows use the Hammerdwarf skill when used as a melee weapon. A combat rewrite would be needed for the intended results.
Post by: Button on January 29, 2016, 05:40:41 pm
Would it be more viable to do it with crossbow dwarves that only spar using daggers, and do isolate live target training? Or will they still prefer crossbow bashing if they have knife user skill?A question regarding squads...
Will we see backup weapons as an option? For example, you could have a squad of marksdwarves that uses crossbows as normal when at a certain range away from the opponent, but uses daggers or short swords if an opponent gets too close or if they run out of ammo.
You've been able to assign multiple weapons to a squad kit for some time, with a bit of micromanaging. Getting the dwarves to think about using them is another matter entirely. In the example above, the "empty" crossbows use the Hammerdwarf skill when used as a melee weapon. A combat rewrite would be needed for the intended results.
They'll either prefer shoot until they're out of ammo, then bash; or run up and stab despite having ammo. I'm not sure how they choose.
The closest you're likely to get in the current version is a modded-in "crossbow with bayonet" weapon, an exact duplicate of the crossbow defined in the raws except using the dagger skill instead of the hammer skill, and basing the melee attack off of the dagger stab attack. Then you can create a reaction to create one of these requiring a crossbow and a dagger as reagents.
Post by: Mr S on January 29, 2016, 11:56:05 pm
Post by: Heretic on January 30, 2016, 12:18:02 pm
1.Will there be a historically documented event in the spirit of "Columbus discovered America?" with the advent of ships. I mean, if some fraction will be able to reach new shores, it will somehow be reflected especially in its history?
2.Will the new phase of world activation include the emergence of professions and medicine into adventure mode?
3.Will you change the generation scheme for cities in the future? For example, similar to latest features, you can add geneartor architectural styles. And the profession of architect, that will include the ability to create tractate describing the new style, to become the city architect, to teach others, and so on (similar to other types of artists)
4.How soon the mechanics of mounts will be expanded? Now we can’t see them otherwise then in sieges.
5. Will there be any differences between the characteristics of animals of the same type?
Such as size distribution or other (interesting) differences (I don’t mean attributes and other stuff that’s already in game). It would be interesting to experience occasional anomalies such as albinism.
6. Will there be any complex cliffs or other landscape features? Today, the maximum that can make erosion - is + - 45 °, which looks like a beam, but not much of a canyon or even a ravine.
7.Will there be the tools for crafting such as a blacksmith hammers, knives for carving, and so on?
8. Our scientists can invent trip hammer and water powered trip hammer. Does it mean that these mechanisms will be ingame soon?
9.Will there be cursed city, that is special for werewolves and for vampires?
10.Will release with magic include some improvements for necromancers? Alchemy and other stuff that can make them stronger.
11.Will there be the religious wars? When one of the cults is especially militarized to destroy the others.
12. Will there be clans of mercenaries: normal soldiers, assassins, hired sales agents, and so on?
13.Will it be fixed when working dwarves throw weapons (axes, pickaxes, crossbows) when they are mobilized into army?
14. Won’t you add revolutions to fortress mode?Like your citizens are divided into two camps and these are fighting among themselves because of some disagreements.
15. Will there be certain game events in certain temples of the gods? I mean festivals in player fortress.
16. Won’t soldiers be able in fortress mode to throw a melee weapon? Like to throw an axe to head of fleeing goblin, and of course, get back the weapon if possible.
Post by: Inarius on January 30, 2016, 01:47:00 pm
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on January 30, 2016, 05:28:25 pm
Hey Toady, thanks for previous answers. Here is big stack of questions, collected from your russian fans. Several сommon questions, such as “How long before the new release? When it will be possible to send the army to the goblins? When you turn on the economy?” are not present in this compilation.
1.Will there be a historically documented event in the spirit of "Columbus discovered America?" with the advent of ships. I mean, if some fraction will be able to reach new shores, it will somehow be reflected especially in its history?
2.Will the new phase of world activation include the emergence of professions and medicine into adventure mode?
3.Will you change the generation scheme for cities in the future? For example, similar to latest features, you can add geneartor architectural styles. And the profession of architect, that will include the ability to create tractate describing the new style, to become the city architect, to teach others, and so on (similar to other types of artists)
4.How soon the mechanics of mounts will be expanded? Now we can’t see them otherwise then in sieges.
5. Will there be any differences between the characteristics of animals of the same type?
Such as size distribution or other (interesting) differences (I don’t mean attributes and other stuff that’s already in game). It would be interesting to experience occasional anomalies such as albinism.
6. Will there be any complex cliffs or other landscape features? Today, the maximum that can make erosion - is + - 45 °, which looks like a beam, but not much of a canyon or even a ravine.
7.Will there be the tools for crafting such as a blacksmith hammers, knives for carving, and so on?
8. Our scientists can invent trip hammer and water powered trip hammer. Does it mean that these mechanisms will be ingame soon?
9.Will there be cursed city, that is special for werewolves and for vampires?
10.Will release with magic include some improvements for necromancers? Alchemy and other stuff that can make them stronger.
11.Will there be the religious wars? When one of the cults is especially militarized to destroy the others.
12. Will there be clans of mercenaries: normal soldiers, assassins, hired sales agents, and so on?
13.Will it be fixed when working dwarves throw weapons (axes, pickaxes, crossbows) when they are mobilized into army?
14. Won’t you add revolutions to fortress mode?Like your citizens are divided into two camps and these are fighting among themselves because of some disagreements.
15. Will there be certain game events in certain temples of the gods? I mean festivals in player fortress.
16. Won’t soldiers be able in fortress mode to throw a melee weapon? Like to throw an axe to head of fleeing goblin, and of course, get back the weapon if possible.
Some of these smell like suggestions, but the stench isn't strong enough so I guess it's fine. I'll answer some of them, based on dev plans and DF talks:
4. At some point in the future
5. Yes, at some point
7. Yes, at some point
8. Yes, at some point
11. Yes, at some point
13. Yes, at some point
14. Yes he will, definitely. Probably in the starting scenarios release.
15. Yes, at some point
16. Yes, at some point
The thing is that Toady has no accurate plans for when stuff will be added, so asking "when" would be a little dumb because the answer almost always is "at some point in the future, when it's necessary or fitting"
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2016, 01:26:55 am
Post by: Max™ on January 31, 2016, 06:20:12 am
Will there ever be a point in the future where NPCs might seek revenge on their own?Interestingly, I was ordered to take out a bunch of bandits by a lord, a couple ran off and survived.
Basically when can I reenact the classic trope of murdering someone's loved ones in front of them, extolling the virtues of power and martial prowess to them, and then having them hunt me down years later once they're ready to take me on?
I later encountered them as ambushes in the town I attacked from.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 31, 2016, 12:01:54 pm
Will there ever be a point in the future where NPCs might seek revenge on their own?Interestingly, I was ordered to take out a bunch of bandits by a lord, a couple ran off and survived.
Basically when can I reenact the classic trope of murdering someone's loved ones in front of them, extolling the virtues of power and martial prowess to them, and then having them hunt me down years later once they're ready to take me on?
I later encountered them as ambushes in the town I attacked from.
I believe it happens to a limited extent.
Post by: Dirst on January 31, 2016, 10:11:12 pm
Will there ever be a point in the future where NPCs might seek revenge on their own?This should already be possible if you mod six fingers onto your right hand ;)
Basically when can I reenact the classic trope of murdering someone's loved ones in front of them, extolling the virtues of power and martial prowess to them, and then having them hunt me down years later once they're ready to take me on?
Post by: Toady One on February 01, 2016, 03:25:36 am
Quote from: Max^TM
Is there an indicator about a dance or song start attempt in place or are there plans to have one so we can "fill in" for the extra spot when npcs go to start a performance?
Yeah, we were going to do that, but there were complications with creating a blank spot for the player that they can hold on to for a bit. It's do-able, but we were in a rush before the 42.01 release at the point it came up. It'll probably just be a random addition in the future now.
Quote from: Button
I've noticed that immigrants with extensive family histories have a lot more gods on their worship list than those that were generated without families, or with only their immediate families. Did you make it so children adopt the gods of their parents, or how do they decide? Does it use the same logic in worldgen and at the coming of adulthood in fortress mode?
Whatever the logic, when you get 3 or 4 rungs down a family tree dwarves end up worshipping every god in the pantheon, which is a pain. Is this an intended challenge, or a bug in worship list pruning?
In world gen, the children inherit the religions of their parents as they grow up, so it starts to add up. The new temples turned this into a balance issue, which we haven't handled yet. In dwarf mode, as an early convenience, religion is just passed from the mother to the baby at birth, so the problem isn't compounded, but it is also a sillier system.
Quote from: BesorgterZwerg
is there a plan for the near future to make the champion useful again?
Nothing in the near future. It could come up when we get to status and customs after the myth stuff, but it's hard to say.
Quote from: BenLubar
[What] are the [short-term/long-term/no] plans to add nonverbal communication [to adventure mode]? Currently, spitting is possible and characters cry when they're upset, but there's no way to laugh or to smile or to tap someone on the shoulder or give someone a hug.
It's something we'd like to do -- we have those abstract mannerisms and we almost got to an actual wrestly hug with the reunions. There are always weird little complications.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Does the personality of a leader determine the nation's foreign policy during worldgen? I've seen evidence to support it.
Yeah, it uses several of the facets, but it's not super interesting.
Quote from: KillzEmAllGod
Water and liquids is something that the games never really done well since it was 2d, the lack of flooding from a river and the lack of a cave river as well as magma one makes the game feel a bit less then it was. Are there plans to change the way liquids work at some point so they allow flooding as well as be better on performance as well as moving across the same z level faster then it is now?
Might rain also be done a bit better so it crosses different bioms instead of just raining perfectly in the biom that its allowed too?
This might be asking too much but how viable would it be to allow the game to be able to change the course of a river that might be prone to doing so? (Was thinking yellow river)
Fluids were broken in 2D and were one of the main reasons we went to 3D in the first place, though we did give up the seasonal flooding for that. Bringing floods back is difficult. Changing the course of rivers is more difficult since it interacts with the world and mid-level maps. I'd ultimately like more diverse water systems etc. underground, but I'm not sure when we'll get to that again.
Quote from: cochramd
Does the number of goblins killed in a siege effect global goblin population?
Yeah, they are all real, but it doesn't know how to pull from outlying villages yet, so there's a limit on the area of the effect. Global populations can also increase if there are enough of them, regardless of what you are managing at your fort.
Quote from: Neonivek
So since in the future Demigods will be genuinely semi-divine. Have you decided on the exact method the game will dole out their divine gifts? Random, player's choice, or somehow earned with direct interaction with your parent?
I do like how in essence Demigod is kind of an entirely different type of play.
I'm not sure -- there'd probably be a player's starting choice, especially if there are significant differences, and the ability to let the computer decide, as with most things. Once it's far enough along that you might interact with your parent, then the starting situation might end up more restricted, but it's not clearly exactly how that would unfold. The extent of the smearing of powers over the character's life is one of those things that could be offloaded over time to the magic system generator if the myth maker understands divine parentage a bit better.
Quote from: waveclaw
Will siege armies ever have different goals?
It has been a hope for a long time, though the flipside of that is that it has taken a long time and we have no idea when we'll get there. The post w.g. armies have different goals now, and there are differences between the ones that attack the fort even now, but it needs a lot of work.
Quote from: Max^TM
As the game goes "ha ha, nope" and crashes when an NPC drinks a cage which contains you, I never actually got to check and see if there were any Toadyism's included like the "there is no sunlight when you are dead" stuff. Is there a specific message if someone drinks you? I assume the usual "You have died in a cage." would pop up, but am naturally curious if there may be more.
I don't think it understands at all what is going on. It's a bug so I didn't set up an easter egg for it.
Quote from: TheFlame52
What makes an army conquer or destroy as opposed to pillaging? It's not site type.
Post-world gen, it just works with a population check vs. army size since we haven't gotten into it. In world generation, it looks at the size of the army and whether or not the entity def likes the site type, whether they have an administrator position, whether they have people to relocate to the site in general, whether diplomacy is possible (e.g. can't communicate with kobolds, so no administrator), and if they enslave or kill civilians.
Quote from: cochramd
Toady, did you go and make cavern creatures hyper-fertile for reasons known only to you?
It's probably related to the bug fix that stopped creatures from requiring a marriage-frame-of-mind before breeding.
Quote from: MuseOD
In the forseeable future will you do for food what has been done with music/dance/poetry? I'd really like to see legendary chefs execute extremely complicated signature dishes, and I'd like more complex food preparation reactions to be possible: meat preservation, fattening animals, etc.
Yeah, that was the hope with the whole recipe thing that didn't make 42.01. I don't think we'll get to many nuances/new practices with the first pass, but they'd start coming in.
Quote from: ZM5
Adventure mode related: don't know if this was addressed already, couldn't comb over the whole thread, but, are we gonna see personalized (and customizable in the "speech" folder) speech patterns for different races? It's kind of a strange dissonance right now that goblins and hostile bandits/criminals are as polite as any friendly race/group. Same goes for similar always-hostile modded civ. You'd think they'd "greet" you with insults and angrily tell you to "Go away!" as a "goodbye", and so on and so forth for the trade window and other talk options.
On a similar note, will we see customizable embark messages for modding purposes?
Personalizing speech is a difficult problem, since adding the variation is a ton of work and it already takes a lot of time just doing the basic options. The "data/announcement" (where embark messages are), "data/dipscript" and "data/speech" folders are outdated and will wander to readable text raws over an unspecified timeframe.
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
Will civilizations that don't value knowledge and thus don't build libraries be able to develop technologically once practical uses for inventions are created?
I imagine the whole division will become less stark once the game actually starts using them for anything. Right now they really are knowledge-for-knowledge's-sake and the use of the value seemed appropriate.
Quote from: Button
Toady, do you expect you'll move the ability for improvements to change the colors of items out into the raws anytime soon?
I have no idea when a given thing will make it out, if it's not something I'm working on.
Quote from: CharonM72
Earlier I was looking at this old Threetoe story and was wondering, what with the upcoming magic and artifact arc, will things like other planes (dreamworld, expanded underworld, afterlife (see below)) be considered for inclusion? In addition, will an afterlife (beyond the ghost features, more in the sense of a physical place or something) be considered for both adventurers, possibly giving them a second chance or at least something to do after being killed, and for fortress mode, expanding the ghost mechanic, perhaps allowing things like channelling, interaction with the dead via mediums or dreams, etc?
Yeah, Threetoe wrote that story specifically because those are all things that we want to do. The myth generator/magic stuff we are doing with the next major release (or however it works) will form the groundwork for this to happen, though having critters located on two different planes requires a large rewrite so it isn't expected to be jumped into without some forethought.
Quote from: Neonivek
Is the lack of a Magic Sphere a conscious choice?
Yeah. When I was going through real-world pantheons to build the sphere list, there was stuff like "magic" under, say, Hecate, but I passed it over because it just seemed like the word didn't have a universal meaning we could work with. In a world where magic will be more real and diverse, a "magic" sphere might not even be coherent (it probably isn't that coherent in the real world for all the deities given that sphere, but I haven't really thought about it). The lack of coherence is probably true of many of the spheres, between cultures, really, but on the bright side we'd have an opportunity even in the no-magic worlds for custom affinities based on culture, so that a deity could be associated with divination or curses, for instance, even if such things don't work. And if they do work, all the better.
Quote from: Max^TM
Actually: Are you still hoping to be able to get the between-site/roadside taverns and/or inns working for a 42.xx bump, a la the big 40.14 world activation or 40.19 stress/emotion changes update? I recall there being difficulties getting them in while the rest was ready to push out but can't find if there was more stated about what your plans there were.
I still haven't quite figured out "small" sites. It might be delayed until it fits in with a larger small-site push (like the lumber/mining/isolated temple/etc. stuff that'll be starting up with the related embark scenarios). It would be nice to have stuff sprinkled all over without the associated overhead of the full site definition (bandit camps suffer from this now).
Quote from: cochramd
What skill governs the construction of any given assembled instrument?
It uses what it considers the most important piece of the instrument and, based on that, any of 10 crafty skills. It would be preferable to have things like luthiers, but we didn't get to that. I don't think there's an easy way to check right now, except after you've made one it'll be governed by the material type of the finished instrument. There is a weird thing where carpentry and masonry are used for large instruments though (instead of wood/stonecrafting). So a weird mess in addition.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
You recently added more hearth orders so I was wondering about this: Currently you can join a bandit gang (and even necromancer groups) in adventure mode as a lieutenant but they never seem to tell you to do anything, will you be making bandit leaders give players orders to harass nearby villages and, will players ever be able to establish their own bandit gangs?
You can essentially start a bandit gang now by getting friends together and being a jerk (demanding items and so forth), but yeah, it doesn't recognize your group unless you actually claim a site. You'll eventually get to name your group without a site claim, and hopefully the game can also be taught to treat your group properly based on your deeds. We're also hoping to blur the bandit distinction a bit, since all the village lords are essentially the more successful bandits right now anyway, in some sense. A portion of that might be reasonably near-term, depending on the various bandit changes we'll be doing over the next few releases. But yeah, at the base level, it's missing that a bandit leader can order you to harass a town, and the order they give to other people should be unified with that when it happens.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Would it be a simple thing to enable regular non-dwarf migrants now? Considering how multi-cultural civs are, it's actually a bit strange how they still seem to be all dwarves these days.
It's a simple thing technically to turn it on, but I'm not sure I'm ready to do it yet, since the existing clothing and military equipment issues would just be compounded. We'll probably stick with the petition baby step for a while longer.
Quote from: FearfulJesuit
In DF, scrolling a mouse's scroll wheel forward zooms the map out, and scrolling it backwards zooms it in. This is the opposite of most applications- why is this, and are there any plans to change it?
I don't remember the decision-making on any of the SDL port stuff. I wasn't even aware that it worked that way, though I might have been the one to set the option. I'd personally prefer it the other way.
Quote from: Urlance Woolsbane
And speaking of randomized creatures, I did a little test recently: I genned a world with 1000 types of werebeasts, and searched the uncompressed save with a hex-editor. I found that werereptile-curses are considerably more common (28 was the least amount I saw for a given animal, and it seemed common for them to be in the 40's) than weremammal or weremarsupial-ones (both of which seem to have between 8 and 15 of a given animal). And that's not counting werelizard-curses, which are in a league of their own with a whopping 138 instances. What gives?
There are more kinds of mammals (like 64 possible for werebeasts? it might leave off some amphibious/bat ones), so it reduces the chances of each specific one to avoid a mammal flood. The generic lizard is given more weight since it's more vague and presumably encompasses more things. It's a matter of taste I guess, though it was more about biasing toward a single werelizard curse type rather than handling 1000 different curse types gracefully. There are some unfinished notes in this section about repeats and so on, which would presumable have it go through each available animal in turn rather than use the weights to handle 1000 curses.
Quote from: vjmdhzgr
How exactly do the skill levels past legendary work? I believe it's generally recognized that legendary+5 is the highest meaningful skill level, but is there an actual decrease in how much each skill level gained does past that? A few years ago when the shaft of enlightenment bug was discovered, it was found that using it could bring skill levels above legendary+70, and that there was indeed a notable difference at that point. What was intended to happen with these incredibly high experience levels?
It depends on the skill. The roll result just goes up in a straight line with level, so people can always be measured against each other in contests like combat rolls, and a legendary+55 will perform roughly twice as well as a legendary+20. For craft jobs it's different since we only have 5 quality levels, and at some point you almost consistently roll high enough to get level 4, and level 5 is a flat 1/3rd chance (and 10 higher on the roll). However, you can technically still roll low enough to get lesser craft qualities, and every additional legendary level decreases the chance of those mistakes. It would just be very rare. Your raw roll still increases linearly. There's more that could be done with high craft quality, of course, but I don't really have a strict plan for how it should go.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
one reply you made implies that adventurers no longer being able to commit cannibalism and craft things (if modded in) from sentient body parts ( see issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171 ) was not intended behavior. Was that implication correct, or did I misunderstand something?
That's right. I didn't remember changing anything relevant, but something apparently happened. I atill haven't looked at what the old behavior was.
Quote from: quekwoambojish
How close are we to verbally/visually identifying what group a particular bandit or hearth person holds allegiance to?
We'd like to do something with this soon, since it's far too difficult to identify bandits that didn't harass you directly. This release is a bit crowded already, but it shouldn't be too much longer.
Quote from: Bumber reposting somebody from the release thread
What's the reason for removing zombie wrestling? Is it difficulty, or because they were doing weird stuff with it (e.g., joint locks?) The stereotypical zombie, as I've seen them portrayed, congregates in a crowd of grasping arms. The difficulty should already be mitigated by the running and strength nerf.
I didn't like the joint locks etc. I wouldn't have a problem with them holding you down and eating you alive, and we'll get there. The constant charging and tangling together is the substitute for now.
Quote from: ragundo
entity_site_link has a int32 undocumented field, the 7th one, that seems to be a flags field, could you detail the meaning of those flags fields or at leat the following ones?
bit 00->(mask 0x001) related to trading
bit 01->(mask 0x002) related to nobility
bit 03->(mask 0x004) related to trading
bit 04->(mask 0x008) related to trading
bit 17->(mask 0x200) related to nobility
bit 18->(mask 0x400) related to nobility
bit 19->(mask 0x800) related to nobility
residence
capital
fortress (used at least by those castles which aren't currently in)
local market (for villages to think about their market town)
trade partner (for markets to think about other markets)
monument (for a civ to know its tomb sites)
primary criminal gang
criminal gang
marked for invasion
land for holding (all regular sites get this if civ has nobles, whether they have a noble or not)
central holding land (only dwarf fortresses get this for now)
land holder residence (the regular sites where a baron etc. actually lives)
pushed out by invasion
marked for reclaim
failed to hold hostile occupation
Quote from: Random_Dragon
If you meet an unnamed character identified by a distinctive feature that can be severed (nose, ears, etc), what happens to their descriptive adjective if you lop the identifying part off? Does it pick the next available feature, replace it with "the guy with a missing nose" instead, completely fail to update the identifier, crash, or what? o3o
Yeah, we were hoping to change it on sever, but I haven't messed with the words/raws quite enough to make it clean (e.g. the formation of "one-eyed" or even "noseless" won't be generally possible without new raw strings, and I don't know if I'll have time to go through everything). Right now it gives them an adjective, but if you see them at a later point and the feature is gone/severed, they will get a different applicable adjective. This may or may not be changed prior to the release. The same goes for changes in weight/muscles etc. If you don't get their name, their adjective might change if you see them again.
Quote from: Amperzand
Does/will pain have any affect short of sudden unconsciousness?
Yeah, people that aren't in a martial trance that have pain above a certain level get all their rolls halved right now. There's still a lot of work to do, and hopefully we can clean up the "I got your toe, so you're ko'd" problem before too much longer.
Quote from: Just Some Guy
Will it ever be possible to define custom item specific improvements?
Whatever item component system we come up with will hopefully be flexible, but it's hard to say. It would probably be best to merge a custom item specific improvement system with a component system. It's a road fraught with danger though, item components...
Quote from: thatkid
Will there ever be a point in the future where NPCs might seek revenge on their own?
There's some stuff along those lines in the planning -- the hope is that once we fix up the hunt-the-player-I-don't-like mechanic, it'll be able to function generally so the player doesn't have to be involved. The issue standing in the way is just the amount of information that needs to be crunched.
Quote from: ZM5
Will we see backup weapons as an option? For example, you could have a squad of marksdwarves that uses crossbows as normal when at a certain range away from the opponent, but uses daggers or short swords if an opponent gets too close or if they run out of ammo.
Hopefully it'll be more interesting over time, but it's hard to say when any particular thing will go in.
Quote from: Heretic
1.Will there be a historically documented event in the spirit of "Columbus discovered America?" with the advent of ships. I mean, if some fraction will be able to reach new shores, it will somehow be reflected especially in its history?
2.Will the new phase of world activation include the emergence of professions and medicine into adventure mode?
3.Will you change the generation scheme for cities in the future? For example, similar to latest features, you can add geneartor architectural styles. And the profession of architect, that will include the ability to create tractate describing the new style, to become the city architect, to teach others, and so on (similar to other types of artists)
4.How soon the mechanics of mounts will be expanded? Now we can’t see them otherwise then in sieges.
5. Will there be any differences between the characteristics of animals of the same type?
Such as size distribution or other (interesting) differences (I don’t mean attributes and other stuff that’s already in game). It would be interesting to experience occasional anomalies such as albinism.
6. Will there be any complex cliffs or other landscape features? Today, the maximum that can make erosion - is + - 45 °, which looks like a beam, but not much of a canyon or even a ravine.
7.Will there be the tools for crafting such as a blacksmith hammers, knives for carving, and so on?
8. Our scientists can invent trip hammer and water powered trip hammer. Does it mean that these mechanisms will be ingame soon?
9.Will there be cursed city, that is special for werewolves and for vampires?
10.Will release with magic include some improvements for necromancers? Alchemy and other stuff that can make them stronger.
11.Will there be the religious wars? When one of the cults is especially militarized to destroy the others.
12. Will there be clans of mercenaries: normal soldiers, assassins, hired sales agents, and so on?
13.Will it be fixed when working dwarves throw weapons (axes, pickaxes, crossbows) when they are mobilized into army?
14. Won’t you add revolutions to fortress mode?Like your citizens are divided into two camps and these are fighting among themselves because of some disagreements.
15. Will there be certain game events in certain temples of the gods? I mean festivals in player fortress.
16. Won’t soldiers be able in fortress mode to throw a melee weapon? Like to throw an axe to head of fleeing goblin, and of course, get back the weapon if possible.
As Daniel said, generally it's hard to say exactly when what'll happen etc., so I'll just comment briefly as we go, often with the "dunno when" thing, because it's unavoidable.
1. We have that mountain summit announcement (and those horrible spammy river announcements), so I expect it's possible once boats are used.
2. I have no idea. Adventurer medical stuff is a popular suggestion anyway. Generally for professions, I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to do tools and all that.
3. We'd like to do it, but a variety of things come up, as usual.
4. It's lurking in the list of nearer term things we'd like to try in adv mode. Dwarves might never ride things, though it seems reasonable that a human diplomat might also be on a horse or something at times.
5. We have been behind on that sort of thing. I think cows still have alligator bites or whatever. It's hard to find time to do smaller variations.
6. We used to have bad cliffs, but they were a victim of not having climbing, if I remember. Now we have climbing, but it's still somewhat difficult in a few ways. We'll get there at some point.
7. This has been a central issue both with us not having adventure crafting and in the background of dwarf mode. We worry somewhat about the clutter and the problem of having to order up too many work items in dwarf mode. And there's also coming up with a good item list without having any background in any of the skills in our own lives. We're bound to screw up over and over, even with everybody helping us out over on the suggestions board.
8. This ties in with the previous question -- I don't expect to get to any particular thing soon, but we'd like to kind of rawify and build up the item/building lists together as we build up the knowledge list to match items that are already in the game until there's harmony there. It's bound to be a lengthy process.
9. I'm not sure what this is about vampire werewolf cursed cities. We have cities occasionally ruled by vampires. I'm not sure what else will happen.
10. This one is even harder to say than the others I'm not sure about. Something is going to happen on the first magic pass, and hopefully it'll be cool, even if it doesn't really involve the necromancers. It might.
11. We had some dev notes about schisms and so forth. It seems like something that should happen.
12. We have the one-person mercenaries now... but they aren't really, because there's no economy so they don't get paid. It stops that sort of thing from going forward, so I wouldn't expect more until we get there, but then it should be easier to think about.
13. Issues with civilian equipment vs. military equipment are popular over on the bug tracker. There are difficulties to getting it worked out in a way that handles the various situations, but we'd like to figure something out.
14. This is up for the embark scenarios release. I'm not sure which sorts will get to or what kinds of things dwarves will be up to, but they'll understand themselves and their place in society a bit better.
15. We were hoping to get the new world gen festivals active in-game but didn't make it. We have those w.g. festivals now though, so they'll make it over sometime. Next chance will probably be religious-themed embarks.
16. Only the player in adv mode throws things now, if I remember. It should be available to everybody... who knows when we'll get to the overall combat additions.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Do animal-men continue to civilize in the background after initial worldgen is complete? If so, would the presence of a player fortress in an otherwise unsettled region speed up this process?
No, it's another unfortunate world-gen only addition at the moment, partially because we haven't gotten around to any of the animal people entity stuff.
Post by: Trif on February 01, 2016, 03:47:21 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 01, 2016, 04:46:29 am
Quote from: Random_Dragonone reply you made implies that adventurers no longer being able to commit cannibalism and craft things (if modded in) from sentient body parts ( see issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171 ) was not intended behavior. Was that implication correct, or did I misunderstand something?
That's right. I didn't remember changing anything relevant, but something apparently happened. I atill haven't looked at what the old behavior was.
Ah, interesting. As far as I can recall, the old behavior was essentially no restriction at all. And even farther before that, it used to be that you couldn't butcher sentients in adventure mode at all, or possibly not unless starving. I think.
So in all three different instances, it's been an all-or-nothing approach to what can and can't be done.
In any case, thank you for the interesting answers as always.
Post by: Dirst on February 01, 2016, 08:06:09 am
Post by: cochramd on February 01, 2016, 10:38:25 am
Well, that certainly explains why the sieges always take a turn for the underwhelming after I crush a few big ones. Any plans to remedy that?Quote from: cochramdDoes the number of goblins killed in a siege effect global goblin population?
Yeah, they are all real, but it doesn't know how to pull from outlying villages yet, so there's a limit on the area of the effect. Global populations can also increase if there are enough of them, regardless of what you are managing at your fort.
Quote
You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that giant olms and giant toads were having babies more often (though that might also be the case), I was saying that among giant olms and giant toads double and triple births are as common as single births.Quote from: cochramdToady, did you go and make cavern creatures hyper-fertile for reasons known only to you?
It's probably related to the bug fix that stopped creatures from requiring a marriage-frame-of-mind before breeding.
3 new questions:
A) What exactly is a scholar doing when his job reads"Research!"?
B) My fort hit the wealth and population for FBs a long time ago. I got one, then didn't see any for over a decade. However, for the past 2 years, I've gotten one or two FBs per season, every season (not complaining, for the record). Is my drought and flood of FBs a coincidence that occurred because my embark was very far away from the stomping grounds of all but that first FB, or is there something deeper going on?
C) Related to the above, I've noticed that every time I do get 2 FBs in a single season, they come from different cavern layers. Is this a coincidence, or did you code "a cavern layer may only have a maximum of one FB appear in it per season" in somewhere?
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 01, 2016, 11:55:34 am
Well, that certainly explains why the sieges always take a turn for the underwhelming after I crush a few big ones. Any plans to remedy that?
Probably, once it is able to pull from populations a bit better.
Quote
You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that giant olms and giant toads were having babies more often (though that might also be the case), I was saying that among giant olms and giant toads double and triple births are as common as single births.
They don't have [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE], so it's not supposed to be uncommon to have twins/triplets/more.
Quote
A) What exactly is a scholar doing when his job reads Research?
Oh, you know, just thinkin' about scholarly pursuits and stuff. Probably thinking about a new idea involving their chosen focus, or writing a book, or talking about his passion with others, or something. Scholars don't do too much as of yet, as mentioned.
Quote
B) My fort hit the wealth and population for FBs a long time ago. I got one, then didn't see any for over a decade. However, for the past 2 years, I've gotten one or two FBs per season, every season (not complaining, for the record). Is my drought and flood of FBs a coincidence that occurred because my embark was very far away from the stomping grounds of all but that first FB, or is there something deeper going on?
Distance affects MBs for certain. Not sure about FBs, as they have always seemed somewhat random to me. May be that they have been on the map, but weren't announced due to being within an unexplored area of the map, only to be revealed once they have entered a viewable area.
Quote
C) Related to the above, I've noticed that every time I do get 2 FBs in a single season, they come from different cavern layers. Is this a coincidence, or did you code "a cavern layer may only have a maximum of one FB appear in it per season" in somewhere?
Each layer has its own population values, so it may just be on a layer where they would normally reside, but I do not know. I have seen multiple beasts on the same layer, but they could have wandered between layers through natural tunnels that connect layers, or it may have been coincidence.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 01, 2016, 12:43:53 pm
:Quote from: ButtonI've noticed that immigrants with extensive family histories have a lot more gods on their worship list than those that were generated without families, or with only their immediate families. Did you make it so children adopt the gods of their parents, or how do they decide? Does it use the same logic in worldgen and at the coming of adulthood in fortress mode?
Whatever the logic, when you get 3 or 4 rungs down a family tree dwarves end up worshipping every god in the pantheon, which is a pain. Is this an intended challenge, or a bug in worship list pruning?
In world gen, the children inherit the religions of their parents as they grow up, so it starts to add up. The new temples turned this into a balance issue, which we haven't handled yet. In dwarf mode, as an early convenience, religion is just passed from the mother to the baby at birth, so the problem isn't compounded, but it is also a sillier system.
:
I've had a look at my fortress' single parent pair's children, and they all worshiped the deity of their mother (as Toady said), but in addition to that, most of them had one additional deity, which differed between the children. All of the additional deities were from the dwarven pantheon, though. Thus, if no pruning takes place, the females will continue to rack up more and more deities over the generations, so it seems the problem is actually compounded (but I'm very far from getting a second generation of children), and I guess few fortresses or worlds last long enough for multi generation accumulation to be much of a problem.
Post by: cochramd on February 01, 2016, 12:44:39 pm
Oh, you know, just thinkin' about scholarly pursuits and stuff. Probably thinking about a new idea involving their chosen focus, or writing a book, or talking about his passion with others, or something. Scholars don't do too much as of yet, as mentioned.Those 3 things are covered under the Ponder X!Write! and Discuss X! jobs. It's not clear what Research! is.
Quote
Distance affects MBs for certain. Not sure about FBs, as they have always seemed somewhat random to me. May be that they have been on the map, but weren't announced due to being within an unexplored area of the map, only to be revealed once they have entered a viewable area.Oh, believe me, it was NOT a case of FBs hiding out in hidden parts of the map, we're talking fully exposed caverns.
Quote
Each layer has its own population values, so it may just be on a layer where they would normally reside, but I do not know. I have seen multiple beasts on the same layer, but they could have wandered between layers through natural tunnels that connect layers, or it may have been coincidence.Have you seen 2 come onto the map in the same cavern in the same season? I haven't, and I'm wondering if it's just a coincidence.
Post by: CharonM72 on February 01, 2016, 02:31:33 pm
Quote from: Max^TMActually: Are you still hoping to be able to get the between-site/roadside taverns and/or inns working for a 42.xx bump, a la the big 40.14 world activation or 40.19 stress/emotion changes update? I recall there being difficulties getting them in while the rest was ready to push out but can't find if there was more stated about what your plans there were.
I still haven't quite figured out "small" sites. It might be delayed until it fits in with a larger small-site push (like the lumber/mining/isolated temple/etc. stuff that'll be starting up with the related embark scenarios). It would be nice to have stuff sprinkled all over without the associated overhead of the full site definition (bandit camps suffer from this now).
If we start getting more sites or site-like things, then will they appear in the exported Legends data? If so, are there plans to make their (and other sites') locations more accurate than the world tile they're located on? It would make searching the world much easier with higher accuracy, and with the recent development of parsing tools (DF Hack's extended legends exporter, Legends Viewer, Legends Browser, World Viewer, etc. have all seen substantial development recently) it is now easier than ever to browse the extensive and fascinating histories developed in world gen.
Post by: Max™ on February 01, 2016, 04:04:25 pm
I know they have some of that code in place since you can ask whether you can stay the night and they will tell you there is a tavern/inn "some direction" as I recall.
Post by: Knight Otu on February 01, 2016, 05:23:21 pm
Post by: Nopenope on February 01, 2016, 07:49:13 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on February 01, 2016, 10:25:15 pm
From what people used to say back in the day, you would only be able to butcher sentient corpses if starving, but you could eat the meat if it was available at any time. However, I once had a character get to starving, and then wait a whole 'nother day, sitting around the corpse of a sentient creature, unable to butcher it. So I'm not very sure about that being able to butcher them if starving thing, however I know that regardless of hunger you could eat the meat of a sentient if it was available. So now it's the reverse and you can butcher them under all circumstances, but can't eat them under any circumstances.Quote from: Random_Dragonone reply you made implies that adventurers no longer being able to commit cannibalism and craft things (if modded in) from sentient body parts ( see issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171 ) was not intended behavior. Was that implication correct, or did I misunderstand something?
That's right. I didn't remember changing anything relevant, but something apparently happened. I atill haven't looked at what the old behavior was.
Ah, interesting. As far as I can recall, the old behavior was essentially no restriction at all. And even farther before that, it used to be that you couldn't butcher sentients in adventure mode at all, or possibly not unless starving. I think.
So in all three different instances, it's been an all-or-nothing approach to what can and can't be done.
In any case, thank you for the interesting answers as always.
Post by: Max™ on February 02, 2016, 01:17:44 am
Besides the missing "harass a town" orders, do bandits give any orders to their lieutenants? I recall someone mentioned being told to kill a local lord and such, which would be very exciting, but I've never encountered it. The only hearth quests I've gotten from non-lords was a criminal gang asking me to take out a local beast.
I eagerly look forward to more stuff moving back into this system, there are so many ways it can go too.
I do note that your comment regarding local lords being "the most successful bandit leaders" puts some of the missions I've gotten to go take out very peaceful animal-person lords and ladies in a new light. "You must slay the gorlak/polar bear woman/coyote man lord/lady in the next town over. Blah blah, vile creature, blah blah." I walk over and say hi and they're super cool, made me feel kinda bad kicking the little dude in the big round head, but then I got into the hitman mindset with all the bandit camp orders.
It is nice that they pull from local troubles, lots of criminal gangs in nearby towns, you get sent after them, lots of megabeasts, go take care of 'em newbie! Even got asked to take out the master of a dark fortress "under the radar, to avoid starting a war" once, loving the update!
Post by: martinuzz on February 02, 2016, 05:23:10 am
A) What exactly is a scholar doing when his job reads"Research!"?Either your dwarf is on it's way to the library to do any scholarly job, and the research will change into ponder, discuss, read or write once he gets there,
or you borked it a bit by kicking your dwarves out of the library with a civilian alert. Will fix when you allow access to the library again. Dwarves might also snap out of it when you remove them from their scholar position in the locations screen.
Post by: Button on February 02, 2016, 10:39:43 am
It feels silly to add to Toady's own words, but I'll comment anyway...:Quote from: ButtonI've noticed that immigrants with extensive family histories have a lot more gods on their worship list than those that were generated without families, or with only their immediate families. Did you make it so children adopt the gods of their parents, or how do they decide? Does it use the same logic in worldgen and at the coming of adulthood in fortress mode?
Whatever the logic, when you get 3 or 4 rungs down a family tree dwarves end up worshipping every god in the pantheon, which is a pain. Is this an intended challenge, or a bug in worship list pruning?
In world gen, the children inherit the religions of their parents as they grow up, so it starts to add up. The new temples turned this into a balance issue, which we haven't handled yet. In dwarf mode, as an early convenience, religion is just passed from the mother to the baby at birth, so the problem isn't compounded, but it is also a sillier system.
:
I've had a look at my fortress' single parent pair's children, and they all worshiped the deity of their mother (as Toady said), but in addition to that, most of them had one additional deity, which differed between the children. All of the additional deities were from the dwarven pantheon, though. Thus, if no pruning takes place, the females will continue to rack up more and more deities over the generations, so it seems the problem is actually compounded (but I'm very far from getting a second generation of children), and I guess few fortresses or worlds last long enough for multi generation accumulation to be much of a problem.
It was more of a problem when dwarves spent a higher percentage of their time worshipping. Toady really turned that down in 42.04; but in 42.03(?) I had some dwarves with 5 deities apiece who I couldn't get to do any productive work because they were constantly interrupted by worship needs.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 02, 2016, 03:10:16 pm
From what people used to say back in the day, you would only be able to butcher sentient corpses if starving, but you could eat the meat if it was available at any time. However, I once had a character get to starving, and then wait a whole 'nother day, sitting around the corpse of a sentient creature, unable to butcher it. So I'm not very sure about that being able to butcher them if starving thing, however I know that regardless of hunger you could eat the meat of a sentient if it was available. So now it's the reverse and you can butcher them under all circumstances, but can't eat them under any circumstances.
Most peculiar. But yeah, I miss being able to hand-make +troll leather loincloths+ after clearing out a dark pit. X3
Post by: Roofless on February 03, 2016, 09:17:26 am
Are there any near-term plans for introducing new (or reintroducing old) !!FUN!! parts to the game? I'm talking sieges, dangerous critters, better ways to generate dangerous worlds.
Post by: cochramd on February 03, 2016, 09:19:40 am
To elaborate a bit further, I removed [COMMON_DOMESTIC] from every animal except the dog. After making sure every animal had wild populations, I gave alpacas, llamas (which Modest Mod had given [PACK_ANIMAL]) and yaks the [UBIQUITOUS] tag. My line of thought was that dwarven civilization ALWAYS starts in the mountains, making these animals ALWAYS appear in every mountain biome would guarantee that every dwarven civilization I generate had access to shearable, milkable and hauling animals. I've generated 10 worlds, and in each world my civilization had domesticated yaks and llamas, but NEVER alpacas. I had made Dralthas and Elk Birds [PET] animals in the latter 5 worlds, but in all worlds it was the same case for above-ground animals; only above-ground animals with [PACK_ANIMAL] were ever domesticated. (Interestingly, 6 of those civilizations had domesticated donkeys and 8 had domesticated both kinds of camels, making them the most common 'variable' domestic animals.)
Post by: Button on February 03, 2016, 12:38:08 pm
I have recently found that aside from animals with the [COMMON_DOMESTIC] tag, the only above-ground [PET] animals that will be domesticated in worldgen are those with the [PACK_ANIMAL] tag. Why aren't the above-ground [PET] animals without the [PACK_ANIMAL] tag being domesticated?
To elaborate a bit further, I removed [COMMON_DOMESTIC] from every animal except the dog. After making sure every animal had wild populations, I gave alpacas, llamas (which Modest Mod had given [PACK_ANIMAL]) and yaks the [UBIQUITOUS] tag. My line of thought was that dwarven civilization ALWAYS starts in the mountains, making these animals ALWAYS appear in every mountain biome would guarantee that every dwarven civilization I generate had access to shearable, milkable and hauling animals. I've generated 10 worlds, and in each world my civilization had domesticated yaks and llamas, but NEVER alpacas. I had made Dralthas and Elk Birds [PET] animals in the latter 5 worlds, but in all worlds it was the same case for above-ground animals; only above-ground animals with [PACK_ANIMAL] were ever domesticated. (Interestingly, 6 of those civilizations had domesticated donkeys and 8 had domesticated both kinds of camels, making them the most common 'variable' domestic animals.)
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7767
Post by: cochramd on February 04, 2016, 12:33:32 am
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7767Okay then, looking at the date this was reported I'm going to assume it's near the bottom of the "to-fix" list if it's on the list at all. I'm still curious whether or not this is a bug or a feature as far as Toady is concerned.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on February 06, 2016, 06:30:35 pm
Post by: Bumber on February 09, 2016, 03:06:24 am
Post by: Thief^ on February 09, 2016, 10:36:36 am
Post by: Bumber on February 10, 2016, 12:09:18 am
It could be just a + tolerance. i.e. they can wear clothes that are too big by a certain amount, but not too small.I don't think so. The acceptable range seemed to vary with creature size in some way, IIRC, but unfortunately I didn't save my detailed results. I'm sure it wasn't a static amount, because that's the first thing I looked for.
Post by: Putnam on February 10, 2016, 01:29:39 am
Make creatures at regular intervals from 35000 to 100000, maybe 5000 each, and also a 35001-sized creature. If the 10001-sized creature can't wear 10000-sized wear, it's a + only tolerance. Then, check if the 35000 creature can wear 100000, and binary search (approximately) to determine the maximum. Add another caste that is, percentage-wise, the same size in comparison to the 100000 creature as the largest creature that the 35000 creature can wear the clothes of. If the 10000-sized creature can wear the clothes of the much larger creature, it's probably percentage-based.
Post by: Dirst on February 10, 2016, 07:46:20 am
And for those design elements you think of as relatively final, do you have a set of guidelines you use (for example, high contrast or accommodating red/green colorblindness)?
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 10, 2016, 10:23:17 am
Post by: DVNO on February 11, 2016, 06:06:18 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 11, 2016, 09:21:05 am
Post by: Inarius on February 11, 2016, 11:53:43 am
Post by: LordBaal on February 11, 2016, 12:08:45 pm
Post by: Button on February 11, 2016, 01:22:42 pm
Sometimes I see "I've heard i died" or "I am dead" or things like this from dwarves (in arena mode, but I suppose you could find this elsewhere). Even if it's quite fun to read (in a non sense way), what does it exactly mean ?
This is related to the way non-historical figures are referenced in dialogue. Non-historical figures all use the same "dummy" entity, so when a non-historical figure talks about a different non-historical figure, they think they're talking about themselves.
Post by: Mr S on February 11, 2016, 05:22:21 pm
Thanks for the great update Toady, it's really neat, however there seems to be an issue with the making of beds with custom woods. You can make them out of whatever wood you want but the material won't show up on the task list of the workshop. A minor bug.
What do you mean by "custom wood"? Have you modded in other tree types? Are their raws set up in a corresponding way with other trees? In the right raw files? Have you tried making a custom workshop with a reaction that turns logs into beds and tried making them from there?
Post by: LordBaal on February 11, 2016, 05:43:52 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 11, 2016, 05:44:23 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 11, 2016, 05:47:59 pm
Also, on a related note, when will I be able to legitimately open up a "bone carving" shoppe in a town or something similar instead of just peddling to people on the streets?
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 11, 2016, 06:00:12 pm
Are there any plans to add more materials options besides born, like horn or hoof? It's doable, but the most efficient way to make it work out (using reaction_class to group all desired materials for use in the same reaction) will work different from the way you have the reactions working now (namely, reaction_class makes it consume an entire stack, while).
Though personally I don't mind the other method consuming whole stacks, as it allows reaction mods to use bone and related materials in a way that's consistent with how leather reactions and the only non-buggy cloth reactions are used.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 11, 2016, 06:00:41 pm
So, I think i'm in love with the customizing of objects, and the ability to create bone items in adventure mode and also customize them, however, it seems like you only get the option to go into specifics when carving figurines in adventure mode and not , for example, amulets.When will we be able to do this or does it depend on your skill?
Also, on a related note, when will I be able to legitimately open up a "bone carving" shoppe in a town or something similar instead of just peddling to people on the streets?
Amulets don't have images on them by default. Unless you mean when you try to put an image on an amulet, then I can't answer that.
As for when you can set up a shop, the answer will probably be "when I get around to it". No specific timelines here, but I would wager that shops and other property ownership would come into play once development starts on a properly functioning economy.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 11, 2016, 06:05:09 pm
So, I think i'm in love with the customizing of objects, and the ability to create bone items in adventure mode and also customize them, however, it seems like you only get the option to go into specifics when carving figurines in adventure mode and not , for example, amulets.When will we be able to do this or does it depend on your skill?
Also, on a related note, when will I be able to legitimately open up a "bone carving" shoppe in a town or something similar instead of just peddling to people on the streets?
Amulets don't have images on them by default. Unless you mean when you try to put an image on an amulet, then I can't answer that.
As for when you can set up a shop, the answer will probably be "when I get around to it". No specific timelines here, but I would wager that shops and other property ownership would come into play once development starts on a properly functioning economy.
I mean when you try to put an image on one. You are unable to AFAIK , which is why I asked :).
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 11, 2016, 06:07:45 pm
In contrast, figurines have image properties on their own, hence working differently.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on February 12, 2016, 12:48:12 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on February 12, 2016, 01:55:27 pm
Will sand and clay tiles remain as infinite sources of the respective materials or will they become finite at some point in the distant future?Toady has mentioned a few times that he would like sand to work more like a liquid, and he mentioned back when the clay industry was added (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1943773#msg1943773) that they considered making clay finite.
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: NSQuoteWhere would you obtain clay from?Quote from: AreyarIt would be nice to see a mechanism where there is at least a small chance of a tile being mined out if clay mining will use the current sand collection interface. (Same for sand actually, but less so.)Right now it works like sand, and we were considering making it eat up the tiles after a number of uses, but it doesn't currently do that.
As such, it seems reasonable that sand and clay won't stay as infinite as they are right now.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 12, 2016, 04:17:24 pm
Given the scarcity of some cavern creatures that appear in small numbers and the interesting barriers of [cave_animal] preferences to level 1 obtaining additional jabberers at a high price or selling off some troglodytes (into slavery? ethics unknown, would they eat them? force them to work? I realise these are all questions in themselves.) would be helpful to breeding programmes that have hit a dead end.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on February 13, 2016, 10:59:05 am
Once player fortresses will be able to interact with hillocks and mountain halls, will they be able to interact only with nearby settlements that aren't too far away? Also, will new hillocks and mountain halls be founded near the player's fortress over time?
Post by: Vattic on February 13, 2016, 12:13:40 pm
Once player fortresses will be able to interact with hillocks and mountain halls, will they be able to interact only with nearby settlements that aren't too far away? Also, will new hillocks and mountain halls be founded near the player's fortress over time?From what I gather the smaller settlements are part of a push to have your fort expand without needing more chunks loaded to the same level of detail as fort mode. This is in part so we'll have big enough populations to draw from for the giant armies we'll need.
Post by: Witty on February 13, 2016, 06:44:51 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on February 13, 2016, 09:04:20 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 14, 2016, 03:33:20 am
Because of all the performing, dwarves don't talk to each other as much any more. This means dwarves don't form relationships as easily, though I have noticed that lovers marry sooner. Are you going to do something to balance this out?Not to mention that kids now are so intent on playing (alone) that I've so far failed to find any kid who's even passingly familiar with another. Kids occasionally recognize the beard of one or a few adults.
Post by: cochramd on February 14, 2016, 11:04:21 am
*sweats profusely*Will sand and clay tiles remain as infinite sources of the respective materials or will they become finite at some point in the distant future?Toady has mentioned a few times that he would like sand to work more like a liquid, and he mentioned back when the clay industry was added (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1943773#msg1943773) that they considered making clay finite.Quote from: Toady OneQuote from: NSQuoteWhere would you obtain clay from?Quote from: AreyarIt would be nice to see a mechanism where there is at least a small chance of a tile being mined out if clay mining will use the current sand collection interface. (Same for sand actually, but less so.)Right now it works like sand, and we were considering making it eat up the tiles after a number of uses, but it doesn't currently do that.
As such, it seems reasonable that sand and clay won't stay as infinite as they are right now.
But...but.....my infinite supply of trade goods made from expensive materials!
Currently, you can only trade with the dwarven caravan of your own civilization and the nearest human and elf civilizations. Will this ever change? Will travelers ever come from much further away to trade at the fort?
Post by: MrWiggles on February 14, 2016, 05:06:55 pm
However, items created at any point that connected can travel to any point. So while the Traders will never be that far away, their goods can be.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 14, 2016, 05:19:26 pm
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on February 15, 2016, 02:44:21 pm
Post by: Witty on February 16, 2016, 12:13:22 pm
Are fistfights supposed to be counted as crimes? Right now they're not, even if somedwarf dies in a brawl.
For what it's worth - the issue has been on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9322) for a while now
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 16, 2016, 02:54:16 pm
If I recall, images on amulets and other items are an improvement or decoration, hence why they don't yet work in adventure mode.
In contrast, figurines have image properties on their own, hence working differently.
Thanks!
Post by: Gashcozokon on February 17, 2016, 12:36:32 am
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 17, 2016, 12:45:56 am
The Yeti (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Yeti) and Samsquanch(sic); In relation to the new changes with Taverns and various Animal men having the option to try civilized life now. Where do they fit in? I ask because I notice they are not tamable, but I don't think they are like the <noun>men, If I make my Tavern/Library/Temple bitchen enough will there be a chance the local population may decide to stop kicking in the door and stop in for a pint?
They aren't intelligent, so barring any future changes, they won't be wanting to stop by a place where everybody will presumably know their name.
Post by: Gashcozokon on February 17, 2016, 03:29:43 am
They aren't intelligent, so barring any future changes, they won't be wanting to stop by a place where everybody will presumably know their name.Alright, sounds fair enough thank you. I think for my own purposes on this map then I am going to add trainable tags because the thought of and army of War Yeti is to funny to pass up.
Post by: Max™ on February 17, 2016, 01:15:39 pm
*Not sure if you've played with it, it puts up a gui line at the top left with the selected job/task, then careful movement in a direction activates said job, you can scroll through and change the jobs, and it will let you pull items from the ground/your hands/backpack I think to use yourself or at an appropriate workshop. Being able to perform construction/deconstruction/mining/tree cutting would be amazing for cases like libraries that spawn with the entrance underground, even if the changes reverted when you left the zone, simply being able to get inside while you're there would be a huge improvement.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 17, 2016, 03:04:02 pm
You mentioned adding helves/using them to make stone axes/possibly using those to enable tree cutting and such, but the issue with not being able to give those changes permanence being in place. Are you saying that you're considering basically adding some of the dfhack advfort script* (which allows some fort functionality) to adventure mode officially, and are you aware that we will be happy and love it even if site permanence isn't preserved everywhere?
*Not sure if you've played with it, it puts up a gui line at the top left with the selected job/task, then careful movement in a direction activates said job, you can scroll through and change the jobs, and it will let you pull items from the ground/your hands/backpack I think to use yourself or at an appropriate workshop. Being able to perform construction/deconstruction/mining/tree cutting would be amazing for cases like libraries that spawn with the entrance underground, even if the changes reverted when you left the zone, simply being able to get inside while you're there would be a huge improvement.
He has had player-site building planned for a long while, i'm sure he will figure something out. I for one am excited, I am sure he will do some clever restrictions (like having you "claim land" then only allowing you to change things there or something like that.) Or maybe just saving the areas you edit right away.
He has talked about "micro-sites" so maybe thats how he will do it.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 17, 2016, 09:29:40 pm
Post by: Max™ on February 17, 2016, 11:12:24 pm
He has had player-site building planned for a long while, i'm sure he will figure something out. I for one am excited, I am sure he will do some clever restrictions (like having you "claim land" then only allowing you to change things there or something like that.) Or maybe just saving the areas you edit right away.Well, the micro-sites would be needed for the roadside taverns, and awesome if that ends up working itself out soon. Either way, even if the same restrictions advfort has are present (only a few types of sites keep changes, lairs, player forts, I think towers maybe?) I really doubt anybody would mind at all, just having those sorts of jobs available in vanilla would be amazing.
He has talked about "micro-sites" so maybe thats how he will do it.
Course now I'm wondering what the interface would be, amusingly the first idea that came to mind besides the advfort overlay would be to let you attack the tree/ground/building with the appropriate tools/skills.
How does the game determine what material is used for outsider weapons? My testing so far has shown that if you mod copper to be unsuitable for use in weapons, it'll pick silver instead. What makes it choose though materials, over, say, iron?Oh god, yeah, I'm pretty curious about the outsider "entity" too, how much of that could be moved to the raws I wonder, if just so I could have a bearded outsider dorf.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 17, 2016, 11:19:48 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 18, 2016, 01:11:06 am
All I know is that you always start with a weapon that uses the spear skill, and another weapon that uses the dagger skill. Even if the weapons aren't allowed for any entities; for example, 'legendary' weapons modded in as a possible outcome of a mood.
Yeah. The weapon types I've pinned down concretely. It's always an item of type "WEAPON" that uses the specified skills, and excludes training weapons. You never spawn with civilian knives instead, because those are tools instead of weapons. And you never spawn with training spears because those have the training token thingy.
However, if you mod in addition weapons that fit the criteria, last I checked they'll be selected at random.
So it's MATERIAL that has me stumped. So far I've pinned down the idea that IS_METAL and MAYBE ITEMS_WEAPON are required tokens for a material to be used by outsiders, but I don't know what makes it favor copper unless forced to do otherwise.
Post by: crazyabe on February 18, 2016, 03:35:01 am
Just a Correlation but from what I under stand, you normally start with copper Picks in Fortress mode because they are cheapest.All I know is that you always start with a weapon that uses the spear skill, and another weapon that uses the dagger skill. Even if the weapons aren't allowed for any entities; for example, 'legendary' weapons modded in as a possible outcome of a mood.
Yeah. The weapon types I've pinned down concretely. It's always an item of type "WEAPON" that uses the specified skills, and excludes training weapons. You never spawn with civilian knives instead, because those are tools instead of weapons. And you never spawn with training spears because those have the training token thingy.
However, if you mod in addition weapons that fit the criteria, last I checked they'll be selected at random.
So it's MATERIAL that has me stumped. So far I've pinned down the idea that IS_METAL and MAYBE ITEMS_WEAPON are required tokens for a material to be used by outsiders, but I don't know what makes it favor copper unless forced to do otherwise.
Expanding on this: Would that mean you are getting a (Dagger Skill/Spear Skill) item of the cheapest metal in Adventure mode?
Post by: Amperzand on February 18, 2016, 04:48:51 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 18, 2016, 01:55:39 pm
Also interesting, if you muck with a civ to make them start without access to metal (while still having picks as digging tools), the embark screen will force steel picks on you anyway, and removing them will lead to the discovery that they aren't on your purchase list.
The solution is you can assign a pick to that civ as a WEAPON and that'll allow it to show up as made out of, for example, wood. At least, assuming you give them the token for wooden weapons. Which is the only way you're getting non-metal weapons on the embark screen, even if you mod in stone picks or such.
Post by: Max™ on February 18, 2016, 02:13:35 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 18, 2016, 02:16:54 pm
Post by: Max™ on February 18, 2016, 11:09:49 pm
Assuming you get to one of these replies before 42.07 is out, will the tree-cutting job involve moving to the travel screen like composing? I assume the mention of player-created data necessitates the transition to reload the map in the new state if that is the case.
If you do get 42.07 out before replying to this, is the push for adventurer-site creation related to the work needed to get the roadside taverns working?
Post by: Untelligent on February 18, 2016, 11:50:12 pm
Quote
Of course, chopping down trees isn't very interesting by itself. The reason we went forward with it now is that next we'll be using the logs for some construction options and finally adventurer-driven site creation to cap adventure mode features for this release. More on that as it is implemented!
That's a pretty big deal.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 18, 2016, 11:57:54 pm
Post by: Arbinire on February 19, 2016, 02:11:38 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 19, 2016, 03:54:14 am
2) If we designate our adventure built site as a fortress (if that's possible) can we actually reclaim it later in fortress mode?
Post by: Inarius on February 19, 2016, 08:36:04 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 19, 2016, 12:58:45 pm
And what about the potential for building an isolated shelter in the wilderness, would that eventually allow retiring in places that normally aren't safe to retire in?
Post by: Max™ on February 20, 2016, 01:51:32 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 20, 2016, 01:59:51 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 20, 2016, 11:39:52 pm
Sort of like the dark brotherhood from skyrim? (Like an assassins guild) Or at least will nobles who are having succession issues maybe confront you and ask you to kill another noble to help you up their social status if you have a reputation for killing things and offer monetary rewards, perhaps only communicating through messages and that brings me to my other question...
Will you ever add "couriers" who deliver messages to you from people who want you to do things for them/meat them somewhere and if so could we use this to order around members of our own organization.
also (unrelated)
You said on the adventure mode df talk toady that you wanted to keep workshops out of adventurer mode - since they were more an abstraction of a concept and would be overhauled later. What changed your mind?
(original question from a dude on reddit)
Can players no longer usher in the age of emptiness in a given world many adventure mode players are claiming you can no longer depopulate sites in adventure mode
Post by: Rose on February 21, 2016, 10:34:22 pm
Post by: DG on February 22, 2016, 07:04:14 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 22, 2016, 12:37:13 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 22, 2016, 12:39:03 pm
Have you taken any inspiration from the adventure Fort dfhack plugin?Doubtful, this has been planned since the beginning.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 22, 2016, 12:43:08 pm
Post by: burned on February 22, 2016, 04:08:11 pm
What's more likely is using adventure-mode mods as inspiration for some of the new content, the reaction stuff at least. But then again, those are ubiquitous and contain a wide array of content and ideas.
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html#9.mods_for_toady
Threetoe:The next question comes from Chevil, and he asks "How often does Threetoe play Dwarf Fortress and what mods does he use?"
Threetoe:Well, I don't use any mods, because I'm usually playtesting the legacy mode when it comes out, and I can't even resize my screen - that's how hardcore I am with Dwarf Fortress.
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html#9.mods_for_toady
Rainseeker: The13thRonin from the forums asks; [9]Do you ever play any of the mods for Dwarf Fortress in your spare time, and if so which one is your favourite?'
Toady: I guess the short ... I just haven't, I haven't done it. I read about them, I know people like orcs and so on, to kill them, but I haven't tried any of them myself. I guess I've seen mods when I load, because oftentimes I'll get a bug report and the save will just be a total conversion or something, and so they need to send their mods. So I've loaded up fortresses before and I'm like 'these are all dragon men'; so I've seen them there, but I've never played with a mod, because it's kind of like if I wanted something in the game, I'd probably just put it in. When it comes to that kind of thing, and I'm not really curious about how playing with other races is, because I know it's kind of buggy, and I know I want to more fully support it later, so I haven't really tried it out.
Based on what both Toady and Threetoe have said in the past I doubt mods, let alone dfhack, are contributing factors of inspiration.
In other words, why would either of them use mods or dfhack? If he "wanted something in the game, [he]'d probably just put it in."
Post by: Putnam on February 22, 2016, 04:20:42 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 22, 2016, 04:44:05 pm
If we need to make staves or similar first instead of going directly from a log plus a rock to an axe, my modder senses shall be tingling.
Actually...wait.
How will hafts for stone axes work, anyway? I'm assuming you'd use bone, or would you have to get wood in some other way first? Assuming harvesting branches from trees doesn't become a thing, that might cause something akin to the Anvil Paradox.
Post by: Just Some Guy on February 22, 2016, 04:54:05 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 22, 2016, 05:29:43 pm
Will adventurers be able to use stones in building? Will they be able to farm?
Farming is planned.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 22, 2016, 05:45:29 pm
Post by: gamerscout on February 22, 2016, 11:07:19 pm
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 22, 2016, 11:27:32 pm
Being indoors always chases bogeymen away, even if it's just a hole in the ground, like some lairs.
Post by: Libash_Thunderhead on February 22, 2016, 11:34:42 pm
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 22, 2016, 11:46:20 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 22, 2016, 11:47:47 pm
I can't seem to find anything about that on the dev page, though I swear I've seen it mentioned before that the game will eventually move more towards work-zones than workshops.
He mentioned it in df talk. Have you checked the old dev page?
Post by: Rose on February 22, 2016, 11:51:05 pm
And if they can, will that eventually migrate to fort mode as well?
I guess cloth should have some disadvantages. Maybe rot.
Post by: iceball3 on February 22, 2016, 11:52:53 pm
In what manner do boogeymen exist? Are they phantasmagorical, physical-just-summoned, or some kind of spiritual entity, like a ghost?
Looking forward, how do you think boogeymen should exist in relation to the citizens of fortresses? What sort of cultural influence do you think they should have? Will their degree of physicality vary with the "world fancifulness" settings you mentioned implementing at one point or another?
Do bogeymen set off traps? Should bogeymen set off traps?
Post by: Eric Blank on February 23, 2016, 03:30:30 am
Since you made a workshop, which workshops and reactions are available to us in adventure mode for now? All of them?
So we can entomb the dead now in coffins we made (they are a container), right? Will that actually count as them being properly memorialized? Can we make slabs to memorialize someone as well?
Post by: Dirst on February 23, 2016, 10:08:33 am
Oh, I'm suddenly remembering that boogeymen exist.Boogeymen are real things, but you are under such existential stress that perceptions are warped into phantasmagorical proportions. You see, boogeymen are the fervent supporters of a political party other than your own ;)
In what manner do boogeymen exist? Are they phantasmagorical, physical-just-summoned, or some kind of spiritual entity, like a ghost?
Looking forward, how do you think boogeymen should exist in relation to the citizens of fortresses? What sort of cultural influence do you think they should have? Will their degree of physicality vary with the "world fancifulness" settings you mentioned implementing at one point or another?
Do bogeymen set off traps? Should bogeymen set off traps?
Post by: Kiloku on February 23, 2016, 01:00:28 pm
Post by: therahedwig on February 23, 2016, 01:37:54 pm
Will workshops be replaced by zones or rooms eventually? Like a tavern, you build tools and store them in it.
Outside of him mentioning it in DF talk, the prime reason it isn't implemented yet seems to be the issue of tools and stockpiles. Like, should there only be a saw and hammer for carpetting, or does there need to be more and add sanding, pliers, rulers for measuring etc etc, and how to prevent the player going insane juggling all these.
Not sure though, my memory is a bit fuzzy lately.
Post by: Tharwen on February 23, 2016, 06:48:14 pm
Will the 30-item cap for manager jobs ever be lifted? Sometimes I need 100 statues or something to be made at once and it's tedious to add in several different jobs and sort out their priorities separately.
Post by: Max™ on February 23, 2016, 07:34:11 pm
Post by: ZM5 on February 23, 2016, 07:59:45 pm
Post by: DG on February 24, 2016, 12:08:49 am
Post by: Amperzand on February 24, 2016, 04:13:37 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 24, 2016, 06:05:54 pm
Will we eventually be able to define our own custom biomes, just like with custom weather effects?
Thats not really how the game works, the biomes are ingrained deeply into the simulation eg, swamps are based on a salinity maps, water maps , temperature, climate etc and a ton of other maps on the world map.It doesnt just randomly place biomes they come about based on climate and stuff like real life. If you mean defining something akin to a"good/evil" biome the plan is to base them off of spheres. I doubt we will be able to create our own, we might be able to edit raw files for them like with evil biomes and stuff though.
Post by: Illgeo on February 24, 2016, 06:07:22 pm
Will Armok appear in any capacity in generated mythology?
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 24, 2016, 06:12:06 pm
Do you plan to ever add any new Ages?Doubtful, the gods are procedurally generated, and I believe toady has said armok is not planned to appear in dwarf fortress without modding ever (though I might be wrong about armok).
Will Armok appear in any capacity in generated mythology?
What do you mean by more ages btw?
list of ages here, though most ages are based on adlibbing names of creatures and such.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Calendar
Post by: Illgeo on February 24, 2016, 06:18:43 pm
What do you mean by more ages btw?I'm aware of that list. I'm asking if he plans to ever add new ones, maybe connected to new mythology stuff, or something like that.
list of ages here, though most ages are based on adlibbing names of creatures and such.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Calendar
Hmm.
Actually, are gods are planned to ever be RAWable?
Post by: Untelligent on February 24, 2016, 06:42:06 pm
Post by: SammyLiimex on February 24, 2016, 07:39:16 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 24, 2016, 07:47:52 pm
Post by: lobster1050 on February 25, 2016, 06:58:53 am
Is it possible to dig/channel in adventure mode?
Will Bone carving and butchery adventure jobs be restricted to specific workshops, or there will be no changes?
Post by: Kiloku on February 25, 2016, 09:05:09 am
Is it possible to dig/channel in adventure mode?
Probably will be, but I guess not in the same release where we'll get woodcutting/construction
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 25, 2016, 09:52:38 am
Will Bone carving and butchery adventure jobs be restricted to specific workshops, or there will be no changes?
Toady has said in df talk several times that he doesn't like the idea of using workshops in adventure mode, so likely workshops in adventure mode will be specific to, for example making furniture and other "large" objects
Post by: Egan_BW on February 25, 2016, 10:09:54 am
Post by: Buttery_Mess on February 25, 2016, 01:48:18 pm
Post by: Dirst on February 25, 2016, 02:26:08 pm
Do you have a will or some other similar apparatus set up so that, in the event of some tragic event (perish the thought) leaving you unable to communicate, the source code for Dwarf Fortress will be made available to the public?Toady One has mentioned that his will specifies that the source code be released upon his death... unless such death is suspected of being motivated by getting access to the source code. Living wills (for the case of inability to communicate) are more complicated, and I don't know if Toady has one.
It pays to be prepared, but this is a pretty morbid topic. Hey, we get to build houses in Adventure Mode!
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on February 25, 2016, 03:21:23 pm
Post by: Dirst on February 25, 2016, 03:23:07 pm
Who would ever kill Toady for the game code? WHO COULD DO SUCH A THING?!Houses. Adventure Mode.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 25, 2016, 03:29:34 pm
Since I'm fairly certain I was the derp to think that up (though the "conjure logs from thin air with an axe" thing in WF was what inspired me to find a different option), if faked branches as a growth becomes vanilla I will be happydragon.
Especially since adding faked growths to all the trees is almost as time-consuming as modding venomous creatures to drop venom sacs. :V
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on February 25, 2016, 03:33:14 pm
Killing goblins, however, usually is.
ON TOPIC NOW!
Toady, do you ever plan on making spears and such able to attack from a longer reach?
If it were up to me, I'd redo some of the combat code, allowing dwarves armed with certain weapons to attack from one tile away, but I have no idea how hard that is, how long it would take, and how buggy the result would be.
Toady, do you ever plan on moving away from tiles/increasing the resolution of tiles? Of course, this would likely come WELL after multi-tile creatures, so the question is a little premature.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 25, 2016, 03:37:01 pm
Killing goblins, however, usually is.
But what if you are the goblins? :V
Post by: Dirst on February 25, 2016, 03:42:21 pm
They are perfectly fine with goblins killing goblins. It's anyone else killing goblins that they mind.Killing goblins, however, usually is.
But what if you are the goblins? :V
Post by: ZM5 on February 25, 2016, 03:57:18 pm
Thats not really how the game works, the biomes are ingrained deeply into the simulation eg, swamps are based on a salinity maps, water maps , temperature, climate etc and a ton of other maps on the world map.It doesnt just randomly place biomes they come about based on climate and stuff like real life. If you mean defining something akin to a"good/evil" biome the plan is to base them off of spheres. I doubt we will be able to create our own, we might be able to edit raw files for them like with evil biomes and stuff though.
Ahh, big shame then, I was thinking something akin to an evil/good/savage biome setup, just with being able to define only certain types of grass/rock/etc. to show up in said biome, instead of amid the generic types of material.
Post by: Dirst on February 25, 2016, 04:31:01 pm
It's not like biome definition is something that can't be moved to the raws (for example, a mod could shoehorn subtropical ranges between the tropical and temperate ones), but it would require modifying a lot of vanilla raws to have any impact, and doesn't seem worth the effort for the foreseeable future.Thats not really how the game works, the biomes are ingrained deeply into the simulation eg, swamps are based on a salinity maps, water maps , temperature, climate etc and a ton of other maps on the world map.It doesnt just randomly place biomes they come about based on climate and stuff like real life. If you mean defining something akin to a"good/evil" biome the plan is to base them off of spheres. I doubt we will be able to create our own, we might be able to edit raw files for them like with evil biomes and stuff though.
Ahh, big shame then, I was thinking something akin to an evil/good/savage biome setup, just with being able to define only certain types of grass/rock/etc. to show up in said biome, instead of amid the generic types of material.
If plants and creatures eventually transition to preferred environment parameters rather than named biomes, then the biome descriptions themselves become flavor text and moving them to the raws makes perfect sense. Then if you really do want to build your little house on a Prairie, you can.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 25, 2016, 07:00:59 pm
Maybe it will eventually get to that point.It's not like biome definition is something that can't be moved to the raws (for example, a mod could shoehorn subtropical ranges between the tropical and temperate ones), but it would require modifying a lot of vanilla raws to have any impact, and doesn't seem worth the effort for the foreseeable future.Thats not really how the game works, the biomes are ingrained deeply into the simulation eg, swamps are based on a salinity maps, water maps , temperature, climate etc and a ton of other maps on the world map.It doesnt just randomly place biomes they come about based on climate and stuff like real life. If you mean defining something akin to a"good/evil" biome the plan is to base them off of spheres. I doubt we will be able to create our own, we might be able to edit raw files for them like with evil biomes and stuff though.
Ahh, big shame then, I was thinking something akin to an evil/good/savage biome setup, just with being able to define only certain types of grass/rock/etc. to show up in said biome, instead of amid the generic types of material.
If plants and creatures eventually transition to preferred environment parameters rather than named biomes, then the biome descriptions themselves become flavor text and moving them to the raws makes perfect sense. Then if you really do want to build your little house on a Prairie, you can.
Post by: Max™ on February 26, 2016, 06:16:09 am
Or you could wait a week, and then you'd have happyplayers [not outtokillyouplayers] as well as regularish updates for the next update. Srsly, killing Toady is never the solution.Seems like that would be a natural sidegrowth of multitile creatures. You can almost fake it with interactions (except it would show as "the spinning spear" or "is engulfed in a burst of spears" since it would technically be shooting the item with a ~2 tile range) or go the other way and have longer weapons with low prepare/high recovery since they can be brought to bear "earlier" but there's still stuff like how would you display it, if at all, how do you handle intervening units, etc.
Killing goblins, however, usually is.
ON TOPIC NOW!
Toady, do you ever plan on making spears and such able to attack from a longer reach?
If it were up to me, I'd redo some of the combat code, allowing dwarves armed with certain weapons to attack from one tile away, but I have no idea how hard that is, how long it would take, and how buggy the result would be.
Post by: burned on February 26, 2016, 05:58:20 pm
Or you could wait a week, and then you'd have happyplayers [not outtokillyouplayers] as well as regularish updates for the next update. Srsly, killing Toady is never the solution.
Killing goblins, however, usually is.
ON TOPIC NOW!
Toady, do you ever plan on making spears and such able to attack from a longer reach?
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html
Rainseeker: Now if you have a spear lets say, a longer weapon, could you hit a person running at you sooner than he could hit you?
Toady: This is one of the main things we haven't done in terms of the combat arc, is reach. I mean, reach is a really really really really important concept that hasn't been explored in Dwarf Fortress yet and we were almost going to jump in, and because there are so many things you wanna do when you get this new combat stuff in, you wanna add all sorts of things that make it more and more realistic or whatever and so we drew the line. We were thinking about letting you sort of guard a square in a direction, so you'd sort of set your weapon like a spear in a certain direction so someone can't even enter that square, and it's going to be interesting when we start controlling space so that all the battles don't end up with two people next to each other all the time, 'cause people should be farther away from each other especially when fighting with weapons than they are right now, where it's, there's still no..
it's like there's all the interesting things about attacks interweaving with each other and so on but there's still no kind of calm periods or testing periods and it, it's not quite sure where that's going to fit in. And reach is a part of that, getting tired and like, losing your gas tank is part of that. Also though there's a there's a big psychological aspect of that, about seeing what the other person's gonna do and almost kinda playing poker with them to try and figure out.. do they always fall into a pattern where they jab left, jab right or whatever. And then there's a lot of things that come into fighting somebody that slows the pace down and we can only try to approximate this as best we can and we haven't really attempted that yet.
But it's definitely, for for people who still think that, that, that, you know it's way too wild right now the way people just kinda go at each other like beasts, it's, that's something we acknowledge and you know, I just mentioned, you know three or so things that would definitely help and I'm sure there's more out there. So they're all do-able, the psychological one's kinda the hardest, ‘cause I mean are you supposed to kind of memorize the patterns or just have the game give you a bonus over time if you're a better fighter than they are or something like that, the longer you fight them the more you kinda figure them out and get bonuses are some of the... so there's abstract ways to do it there are non-abstract ways to do it, we haven't really thought about what angle we're gonna take.
Toady, do you ever plan on moving away from tiles/increasing the resolution of tiles? Of course, this would likely come WELL after multi-tile creatures, so the question is a little premature.
As far as increasing the resolution of tiles - it has always been possible for you to use higher resolution tiles that suit your set up.
Post by: iceball3 on February 26, 2016, 07:29:28 pm
I think they mean resolution as in the resolution of mechanical detail, not graphical resolution.
As far as increasing the resolution of tiles - it has always been possible for you to use higher resolution tiles that suit your set up.
Post by: burned on February 26, 2016, 08:27:40 pm
I think they mean resolution as in the resolution of mechanical detail, not graphical resolution.
As far as increasing the resolution of tiles - it has always been possible for you to use higher resolution tiles that suit your set up.
I parsed their question with "and/or" in place of their "/" - I'm not sure how else to interpret what they meant. But, out of all the games that exist that will see an increase in "mechanical detail" - this is that game.
So, yes, there will be an increase in mechanical detail. ;]
Post by: Knight Otu on February 27, 2016, 04:07:52 pm
I parsed their question with "and/or" in place of their "/" - I'm not sure how else to interpret what they meant. But, out of all the games that exist that will see an increase in "mechanical detail" - this is that game.I read it as pixel-based/freeform movement and placement or the like (which isn't particularly likely to happen).
So, yes, there will be an increase in mechanical detail. ;]
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 28, 2016, 01:42:03 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 28, 2016, 01:43:36 am
What's the intended behavior for small goblin ambushes/sieges? Small groups of goblins will occasionally turn up before you hit the population trigger, then leave pretty quickly. Are these supposed to be ambushes? Thief groups? Simply lost goblins on their way to somewhere else? Goblin entities don't seem to have the [AMBUSHER] tag, but there seems to be some confusion as to what this tag actually does/is supposed to do.
Which is bloody weird because goblins are supposed to send ambushes. Then again, in early DF2012 the siege token had been removed from goblins and they'd siege anyway... :V
Post by: GoblinCookie on February 28, 2016, 06:59:59 am
Post by: Dirst on February 28, 2016, 12:31:41 pm
What has kept you from making it possible to define items at a creature level? So instead of having to have an entity in order not to walk about unarmed and naked, we would have tags along the lines of [CREATURE_HELMET:X] which would result in items being spawned along with the creatures clusters. What exactly are your plans to equip uncivilized intelligents, surely them walking around naked and unarmed is not the final intent?Smells... sugestiony.
My guess is that the most straightforward implementation would be to let truly uncivilized creatures just equip stuff they find. As for nomadic bands and proto-civilizations, that is already planned for the distant future iirc. Or maybe that was wishful thinking on my part :)
Post by: vjmdhzgr on February 28, 2016, 05:55:19 pm
Well [SIEGER] is for humans and dwarves. It implies a specific method of sieging, wherein they actually siege rather than just send large forces to attack. They make some campfires and wait around outside your fortress, which will presumably end up starving you once the food and caravan revamp happens where it's actually going to be likely you'll depend on outside food sources for food.What's the intended behavior for small goblin ambushes/sieges? Small groups of goblins will occasionally turn up before you hit the population trigger, then leave pretty quickly. Are these supposed to be ambushes? Thief groups? Simply lost goblins on their way to somewhere else? Goblin entities don't seem to have the [AMBUSHER] tag, but there seems to be some confusion as to what this tag actually does/is supposed to do.
Which is bloody weird because goblins are supposed to send ambushes. Then again, in early DF2012 the siege token had been removed from goblins and they'd siege anyway... :V
Post by: Untelligent on February 28, 2016, 07:18:26 pm
Post by: Libash_Thunderhead on February 28, 2016, 07:21:06 pm
Well [SIEGER] is for humans and dwarves. It implies a specific method of sieging, wherein they actually siege rather than just send large forces to attack. They make some campfires and wait around outside your fortress, which will presumably end up starving you once the food and caravan revamp happens where it's actually going to be likely you'll depend on outside food sources for food.Currently, creatures which are not your citizens and livestocks don't need to consume food. Which makes me wonder, if one day this is "fixed", will the siegers starve themselves before you run out of food?
Post by: Vattic on February 28, 2016, 07:30:03 pm
Currently, creatures which are not your citizens and livestocks don't need to consume food. Which makes me wonder, if one day this is "fixed", will the siegers starve themselves before you run out of food?I've often wondered if Toady will have us managing and destroying supply lines once we get to march armies about the world map.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 28, 2016, 08:12:40 pm
The development page suggests digging through your walls
Sweet zombie Jesus no. ;w;
Post by: Egan_BW on February 28, 2016, 08:55:32 pm
You are not living up to your avatar, it seems.The development page suggests digging through your walls
Sweet zombie Jesus no. ;w;
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 28, 2016, 09:16:09 pm
You are not living up to your avatar, it seems.
True, it's gonna be Funtastic. Though unlike the climbing and jumping, I can't see any sane way to balance digging invaders in a way that'll allow a fort to defend again them. Then again, if constructed walls and floors remain immune to the AI...ooh. This gives me ideas.
Post by: Untelligent on February 28, 2016, 09:39:03 pm
That being said, I look forward to the day when you can expect an invasion to do a little of everything: marching a large force of infantry through the obvious(ly trapped) entrances, having a smaller group of elite troops scamper over your walls, and sending mounted cavalry out to pick off the dwarves that were caught outside before they can run away. Meanwhile, while you're distracted, a squad of sappers is trying to dig in the back way, and you can see a disturbing contraption being built in the forest...
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on February 28, 2016, 09:50:24 pm
For three days he laid in the tomb. Then he got up and moaned, "brains... amen"The development page suggests digging through your walls
Sweet zombie Jesus no. ;w;
I'm going to hell for laughing at this.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 28, 2016, 10:18:56 pm
Post by: cochramd on February 29, 2016, 09:08:39 am
Also I have observed that every kind of animal will crowd in one corner or on one edge of their pasture and will sometimes even leave their own pastures, presumably because they want the attention of the dwarfs. You might want to set about fixing that behavior; I don't appreciate my grazers trampling their own grass and my war animals fighting each other for no reason, and I doubt anyone else does either.
Post by: Button on February 29, 2016, 10:55:53 am
I've seen my stonefall traps cripple a lot of enemies without killing them. These crippled enemies often make it off the map when the foe retreats. Does crippled enemies leaving the map alive have an effect on the rest of the world? Am I weakening the goblin civilization by not just killing but also crippling so many of their soldiers and warbeasts?
I don't know for sure, but based on offloading behavior in adventure mode and abstract combat in legends mode, my educated guess would be the following:
1. All injuries heal as far as they're able when a unit is offloaded.
2. Temporary syndromes are wiped (e.g. I've survived a GCS bite by going into Travel mode after a companion killed the beastie).
3. Permanent syndromes are persisted, but except in the case of syndrome classes hardcoded to be taken into account in abstract combat, don't effect anything.
4. In the case of a permanently-crippling blow, e.g. a bronze colossus ripping someone's leg off, in legends mode that only seems to be taken into account insofar as the same leg can't be ripped off twice. It doesn't appear to affect combat effectiveness.
tl;dr Probably not, except when they come back to attack you again.
Quote
Also I have observed that every kind of animal will crowd in one corner or on one edge of their pasture and will sometimes even leave their own pastures, presumably because they want the attention of the dwarfs. You might want to set about fixing that behavior; I don't appreciate my grazers trampling their own grass and my war animals fighting each other for no reason, and I doubt anyone else does either.
This seems to happen primarily with animals that have been pastured by their own trainers. I've split my war dog area into separate "trained" and "untrained" areas and assign them manually from the latter to the former once training takes place, and this has really cut down on war dog-on-war dog violence.
Post by: Toady One on February 29, 2016, 03:01:43 pm
Quote
Quote from: meYeah, they are all real, but it doesn't know how to pull from outlying villages yet, so there's a limit on the area of the effect. Global populations can also increase if there are enough of them, regardless of what you are managing at your fort.Quote from: cochramdWell, that certainly explains why the sieges always take a turn for the underwhelming after I crush a few big ones. Any plans to remedy that?
I mentioned the villages, which would mostly handle it, and it shouldn't always be fixed (e.g. if you kill them all).
Quote from: cochramd
A) What exactly is a scholar doing when his job reads "Research!"?
B) My fort hit the wealth and population for FBs a long time ago. I got one, then didn't see any for over a decade. However, for the past 2 years, I've gotten one or two FBs per season, every season (not complaining, for the record). Is my drought and flood of FBs a coincidence that occurred because my embark was very far away from the stomping grounds of all but that first FB, or is there something deeper going on?
C) Related to the above, I've noticed that every time I do get 2 FBs in a single season, they come from different cavern layers. Is this a coincidence, or did you code "a cavern layer may only have a maximum of one FB appear in it per season" in somewhere?
A) It's the organizational activity. They'd like to branch into something else, but it's either on a timer or they are having an issue. Sometimes they wait for a collaborator.
B+C) I think it was probably even less deep and more of coincidence. Just random chance, if you got them later. It doesn't care much about FB locations now, other than that they are underground. In general, large beasts of all kinds don't have any code at all about how they move around or attack or whatever, post worldgen. It wasn't part of the first world activation pass we did. There is a strict limit on the number of attacks per layer per season, and that's the sort of thing that'll be lifted once we get their post worldgen behaviors in.
Quote from: CharonM72
If we start getting more sites or site-like things, then will they appear in the exported Legends data? If so, are there plans to make their (and other sites') locations more accurate than the world tile they're located on?
Like exporting their mid-level rectangles in the xml? I should be able to do that.
Quote from: Nopenope
How come Threetoe doesn't post devlogs often these days?
He never appeared often. We just had that little insertable face and did it a few times. We didn't get into a rhythm with it.
Quote from: Max^TM
Besides the missing "harass a town" orders, do bandits give any orders to their lieutenants? I recall someone mentioned being told to kill a local lord and such, which would be very exciting, but I've never encountered it. The only hearth quests I've gotten from non-lords was a criminal gang asking me to take out a local beast.
They don't do anything else. It was kind of a crime and punishment release thing, but now I think the hearths and bandit camps will become more mushily related before then.
Quote from: Roofless
Are there any near-term plans for introducing new (or reintroducing old) !!FUN!! parts to the game? I'm talking sieges, dangerous critters, better ways to generate dangerous worlds.
The nearest term thing should be the myth generator, which'll potential shake up various aspects of the world that are threatening, and we were planning to have the danger of the world be a parameter. It's unclear exactly what'll happen though.
Quote from: vjmdhzgr
I remember it being mentioned that people with elven ethics that join your fortress permanently and are made to cut down trees suffer from an incredibly bad though. What other situations where you can make someone go against their ethics cause bad thoughts? What would happen if you made a new civilization which couldn't stand killing animals, but you make them into a butcher? Or if you play as a civilization that allows the butchering of sentient creatures, but you get someone who's ethics aren't okay with that to do it?
There aren't very many now. Just for caging/chain, gelding, butchering and felling trees, for the plant/animal ethics.
Quote from: Bumber
How exactly is a creature's acceptable clothing size range determined? From my own testing, it seems a tick man (35000) can wear an otter man's (40000) clothes, but not the other way around. This rules out a simple +/- tolerance or size brackets. Is it percent-based?
It looks like 6/7 < size < 8/7 are the limits.
Quote from: Dirst
Toady, a lot of the interface is configurable with keymappings and raw modding, which is awesome and appreciated, but I was curious if DF's overall design is roughly how you envision it after allowing for multi-tile creatures and graphics. That is, primarily a keyboard interface.
And for those design elements you think of as relatively final, do you have a set of guidelines you use (for example, high contrast or accommodating red/green colorblindness)?
Yeah, it's difficult to go over to a mouse interface. I don't have a set of guidelines. If you had some specific issue in mind, a thread in suggestions would probably be useful. I don't know how to handle things like color other than allowing the rgb values of the 16 colors to be customized in the init file (and I don't know how useful that is for the various forms of colorblindness).
Quote from: DVNO
Now that the world has been activated and the 'bones' of DF's engine are starting to settle, are these months long release cycles that flesh out and extend features here to stay as the norm or will there be more epic year(s) long cycles still planned for the road ahead?
I've been wrong every time I try to predict. We're always hopeful that we can keep them down. Next challenge will be coming up with a way to move the myth stuff over, incorporating it into systems as necessary, without it taking too much time -- it's difficult to do it piecemeal without having a bunch of dead weight in the myths.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
when will I be able to legitimately open up a "bone carving" shoppe in a town or something similar instead of just peddling to people on the streets?
When? Probably when we get to the merchant role adv stuff, or a little later. Depends on how that plays out.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Are there any plans to add more materials options besides born, like horn or hoof? It's doable, but the most efficient way to make it work out (using reaction_class to group all desired materials for use in the same reaction) will work different from the way you have the reactions working now (namely, reaction_class makes it consume an entire stack, while).
Though personally I don't mind the other method consuming whole stacks, as it allows reaction mods to use bone and related materials in a way that's consistent with how leather reactions and the only non-buggy cloth reactions are used.
The other jobs will go in over time, but I'm not sure how it's all going to go moving forward.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
In relation to Deep Dwarves. If we could establish a reasonable trade relationship with them (assuming they can speak/no diplomats until a mayoral or barony stage for easy trades on hitting caverns/within range in the caverns/have access to the fortress depot from topside or cavern entrances) besides from trade goods like wood and maggots, would they offer a variety selection of animals from the caverns additionally?
Given the scarcity of some cavern creatures that appear in small numbers and the interesting barriers of [cave_animal] preferences to level 1 obtaining additional jabberers at a high price or selling off some troglodytes (into slavery? ethics unknown, would they eat them? force them to work? I realise these are all questions in themselves.) would be helpful to breeding programmes that have hit a dead end.
I'm not sure how it'll work out -- right now I think their sites are still on level 1 aside from the magma access points. It would be better if there were more variety.
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
Once player fortresses will be able to interact with hillocks and mountain halls, will they be able to interact only with nearby settlements that aren't too far away? Also, will new hillocks and mountain halls be founded near the player's fortress over time?
It depends on what you mean. Once you can send out a group of people, we don't plan on having that restricted, if you want to send them someplace far away for whatever reason, though nearby sites will send people to your fort more often since you'll be more relevant to them. Part of that will depend on the situation of your embark -- if the religious setups have some faraway central temple, for example, you might be communicating with them quite a bit. New sites should be founded as you go -- that already happens in post worldgen play now, and we just need more reasons for it to happen.
Quote from: Witty
Toady, I've noticed that nearly all tavern fights seem to erupt into a large scale fortress-wide conflict and end lethally. Is this an intended aspect of drunken brawls? I was under the impression that the fight would end once one of the fighters was knocked unconscious or yielded - but is that actually the case right now?
Nah, that's a bit much. I'll probably need to look at a save at some point.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Because of all the performing, dwarves don't talk to each other as much any more. This means dwarves don't form relationships as easily, though I have noticed that lovers marry sooner. Are you going to do something to balance this out?
They are supposed to talk to each other during the "Socialize" breaks between performances, which last a while. I'm not sure if they are pulling it off.
Quote from: cochramd
Currently, you can only trade with the dwarven caravan of your own civilization and the nearest human and elf civilizations. Will this ever change? Will travelers ever come from much further away to trade at the fort?
MrWiggles mentioned the existing trade networks and worldgen flow of goods, and ultimately that'll be how most of it works. There'll be some other cases most likely, and I'm not really sure how it's going to end up since so much will have to be tweaked to make it work at all. I wouldn't be surprised, for instance, as the artifact stuff moves forward, if somebody trying to get rid of one ends up wandering from place to place far from their point of origin. Bulkier goods will just be moved from node to node though. I don't know how much the sea stuff will eventually disrupt that.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Given that the basic room system is half implemented already, with the development planned targets surrounding nobility entering and staying at the fort in rented rooms will there be any particular advantages to keeping nobles in pocket either long-term or permanently? Economy and diplomatic based bonuses perhaps?
Probably not until we flesh out the economic and diplomatic systems. Then it'll matter a lot more what you do with them, since they'd relate to the rest of the world more meaningfully and stuff like their relatives/protectors etc. will matter.
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
Are fistfights supposed to be counted as crimes? Right now they're not, even if somedwarf dies in a brawl.
Witty mentioned the report on the tracker, and it's a bug.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
How does the game determine what material is used for outsider weapons? My testing so far has shown that if you mod copper to be unsuitable for use in weapons, it'll pick silver instead. What makes it choose though materials, over, say, iron?
Hmm... it doesn't use special mats, and they have to be is_metal with the items_metal flag and the items_weapon flag... it picks among those with the lowest non-zero min(shear force/1000+1,max edge). It doesn't respect economic value at all. So, it's as strange as you might expect. I think I just wanted the crappiest edged metal, to the extent I was thinking at all.
Quote from: Max^TM
Assuming you get to one of these replies before 42.07 is out, will the tree-cutting job involve moving to the travel screen like composing? I assume the mention of player-created data necessitates the transition to reload the map in the new state if that is the case.
If you do get 42.07 out before replying to this, is the push for adventurer-site creation related to the work needed to get the roadside taverns working?
Yeah, chopping goes to travel... we watched a video of a tree being taken down by a stone axe and decided the travel screen was at least as much as their time-consuming effort deserved. It takes an hour right now. Even if we took material into consideration (we don't yet), it'll probably still pop in and out, unless you can do it in a stroke or two.
It's partially related to the roadside taverns, yeah, though I didn't end up using a new data structure, so there's still more experimentation to be done.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
1) Will we be able to embark on areas with adventurer made sites present or will they be blocked?
2) If we designate our adventure built site as a fortress (if that's possible) can we actually reclaim it later in fortress mode?
1) It looks like it'll be allowed.
2) It isn't possible yet. I suppose I could considering it once we start digging, though I'm not really sure when it should change you from a camp to a fort in its reckoning, or if the reckoning itself should be ditched.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Here's a thought. If or when adventure mode sites become a thing, how are they planned to interact with existing sites? For example, would local lords get annoyed at the player-character for building unauthorized things all other their farming fields?
And what about the potential for building an isolated shelter in the wilderness, would that eventually allow retiring in places that normally aren't safe to retire in?
You can't build over other sites at this point.
Yeah, this should extend your retirement possbilities, provided you define a zone and an entity perhaps (which isn't required for the sites you make in general).
Quote from: Untrustedlife
I know you plan to add bounties, but will we ever be able to for example, join a shady organization that for example kills nobles for other nobles.
Sort of like the dark brotherhood from skyrim? (Like an assassins guild) Or at least will nobles who are having succession issues maybe confront you and ask you to kill another noble to help you up their social status if you have a reputation for killing things and offer monetary rewards, perhaps only communicating through messages and that brings me to my other question...
Will you ever add "couriers" who deliver messages to you from people who want you to do things for them/meat them somewhere and if so could we use this to order around members of our own organization.
also (unrelated)
You said on the adventure mode df talk toady that you wanted to keep workshops out of adventurer mode - since they were more an abstraction of a concept and would be overhauled later. What changed your mind?
(original question from a dude on reddit)
Can players no longer usher in the age of emptiness in a given world many adventure mode players are claiming you can no longer depopulate sites in adventure mode
I'm not sure what we'll get to. We'd like to get to various things, but there are always more choices as we go.
We were happy with the figurines, so we figured we'd just toss in some more stuff. We still want to switch the workshops over, but that'll take the same amount of work either way, pretty much, and we didn't have time now to get into that, since we're between major pushes and already have other plans.
I have no idea about the age of emptiness. If the pops are broken, we'll need a bug report and so forth. Populations do breed up now, which might make it rough to manage even if everything works as intended.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
How will hafts for stone axes work, anyway? I'm assuming you'd use bone, or would you have to get wood in some other way first? Assuming harvesting branches from trees doesn't become a thing, that might cause something akin to the Anvil Paradox.
You can pull a branch from branch tiles. We'd like to eventually make those weaker than helves that are carved from a split log (I think that's how it works anyway, avoiding the innermost bits is a goal, but I don't know much about it), but right now, it doesn't matter. The anvil paradox will come up more with picks and actual anvils, though it might be avoided as things stand with use of free-standing boulders or something.
Quote from: Just Some Guy
Will adventurers be able to use stones in building? Will they be able to farm?
Haven't done either one yet, but it's the eventual plan. I imagine stone will come earlier, and farming will only happen with a farming rewrite (though with the whiff on workshops vs. tools, anything is possible).
Quote from: gamerscout
will adventurer's buildings protect against bogeymen?
Yeah, they should.
Quote from: Libash_Thunderhead
Will workshops be replaced by zones or rooms eventually? Like a tavern, you build tools and store them in it.
therahedwig mentioned the issue with tool management, and just coming up with the list of things that are needed is also an issue. We're hoping to unify the various systems at some point, to the extent it is practical and possible.
Quote from: Japa
Will adventurers be able to make buildings from cloth?
And if they can, will that eventually migrate to fort mode as well?
I haven't done anything with it. Those army tents are terrible too.
Quote from: iceball3
In what manner do boogeymen exist? Are they phantasmagorical, physical-just-summoned, or some kind of spiritual entity, like a ghost?
Looking forward, how do you think boogeymen should exist in relation to the citizens of fortresses? What sort of cultural influence do you think they should have? Will their degree of physicality vary with the "world fancifulness" settings you mentioned implementing at one point or another?
Do bogeymen set off traps? Should bogeymen set off traps?
We don't have much metaphysical rhyme-or-reason in the game. The myth stuff will help with that over time. I don't have much more to offer about them.
Quote from: Eric Blank
With being able to build now, does the construction exist as a true site, with a name, people who know of it could give directions, an entry in legends mode? Would we have a claim of ownership to our site? Would that be an independent claim (only we are associated with it, nobody else) or would it belong to our civilization if we are a member of one?
Since you made a workshop, which workshops and reactions are available to us in adventure mode for now? All of them?
So we can entomb the dead now in coffins we made (they are a container), right? Will that actually count as them being properly memorialized? Can we make slabs to memorialize someone as well?
The site has a name if you give it a name, and then it's like anything else. You can claim ownership if you define a zone on the site, and that works the same way it does as your claims on hearth sites.
I've only done the carpenter's workshop at this point. It's not a straightforward process (since the default dwarf jobs are as old as the hills as unifying them would break old saves completely), and in many cases you wouldn't have the necessary raw materials available anyway so far.
Yeah, you can stuff dead bodies in coffins, but I think I'd need to do building placement of coffins to make memorialization work (which may or may not be done in time). You can't do slabs yet.
Quote from: Kiloku
Im unsure if this fits FoTF, but do you edit the RAW files by hand? Or did you develop your own RAW tool?
I do it all by hand, which is why there are typos and so forth. Supporting tools as things change still seems like more of a hassle at this point, probably because I don't work with the raw files very often overall so keeping them updated would be more of a time sink.
Quote from: Tharwen
Will the 30-item cap for manager jobs ever be lifted?
We were planning on doing it when we get to the upcoming work order stuff.
Quote from: Max^TM
Oh my, when you use a reaction that specifies only something empty (for brewing into flasks/waterskins/mugs/barrels as an adventurer, for example) it lists weapons you are holding. From poking around trying to do this with dfhack I know there isn't much difference between a weapon containing a corpse and a coffin containing a corpse. You recently mentioned putting items in containers, will we be able to have a nice cozy little cabin in the woods with rows of upright weapons and the bodies of our foes impaled on them?
Body impalement isn't really related to containers -- that's a weapon building with a building inventory the way things work now, and we haven't done those. When a weapon is stuck in a living critter, it's an inventory item of that critter, and flipping that around to a containment doesn't seem right. It'll probably be more manageable when we handle corpse inventories, though I'm not sure that'll be related to upright spears in any case. It'll all need some work.
Quote from: Amperzand
Do you have any intention of adding a sound engine at some point in development?
Like sound coming out of the computer, rather than whatever the capybaras are doing? There was some dev item about it, but it's not a priority.
Quote from: Illgeo
Do you plan to ever add any new Ages?
Will Armok appear in any capacity in generated mythology?
Actually, are gods are planned to ever be RAWable?
The myth generator is going to mess with all of this. I doubt Armok will appear.
Quote from: lobster1050
Is it possible to dig/channel in adventure mode?
Will Bone carving and butchery adventure jobs be restricted to specific workshops, or there will be no changes?
It isn't currently possible to dig or channel. We'd like to get to it before long, but we might do pick-making before that, which requires more industries.
I haven't restricted the old jobs.
Quote from: Egan_BW
Will necromancer adventurers be able to get their zombie minions to help build in the next version?
I think so. Any historical critters traveling with you count, but I haven't tried with zombies.
Quote from: jwoodward48df
Toady, do you ever plan on moving away from tiles/increasing the resolution of tiles? Of course, this would likely come WELL after multi-tile creatures, so the question is a little premature.
I'm not doing 3D graphics, and I can't increase the resolution of mechanics easily without that. A few things already do use more specific locations, like minecarts and certain projectiles, but I don't anticipate that being used in many more places.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
What's the intended behavior for small goblin ambushes/sieges? Small groups of goblins will occasionally turn up before you hit the population trigger, then leave pretty quickly. Are these supposed to be ambushes? Thief groups? Simply lost goblins on their way to somewhere else? Goblin entities don't seem to have the [AMBUSHER] tag, but there seems to be some confusion as to what this tag actually does/is supposed to do.
The thieves can come with helpers as a distraction, and they aren't supposed to stick around long. Could be something else though.
Quote from: GoblinCookie
What exactly are your plans to equip uncivilized intelligents, surely them walking around naked and unarmed is not the final intent?
I don't have exact plans about it. It'll probably change over time. It depends in part on the sort of critter you are talking about. We haven't sorted out animal people at all, or critters like gorlaks. Others like gremlins might not end up with anything.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 29, 2016, 03:18:38 pm
Quote from: Random_DragonHow will hafts for stone axes work, anyway? I'm assuming you'd use bone, or would you have to get wood in some other way first? Assuming harvesting branches from trees doesn't become a thing, that might cause something akin to the Anvil Paradox.
You can pull a branch from branch tiles. We'd like to eventually make those weaker than helves that are carved from a split log (I think that's how it works anyway, avoiding the innermost bits is a goal, but I don't know much about it), but right now, it doesn't matter. The anvil paradox will come up more with picks and actual anvils, though it might be avoided as things stand with use of free-standing boulders or something.
Ahah, totally called it. o3o
Post by: Dirst on February 29, 2016, 03:40:12 pm
The myth generator is going to mess with all of this.Bwahaha...
Post by: Button on February 29, 2016, 04:10:12 pm
In general, large beasts of all kinds don't have any code at all about how they move around or attack or whatever, post worldgen.
That would explain how I got attacked by a tundra titan in a subtropical fort...
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 29, 2016, 04:48:31 pm
Post by: Max™ on February 29, 2016, 07:41:00 pm
Oh by the way... thank you so much for those reaction categories and being able to nest them, I love being able to condense and sort my myriad adventurer mod reactions! Now the actual question: as excited as I am at the thought of being able to dig/channel/ramp without dfhack, I must ask if you have any plans to add deconstruction tasks? Though I'm not sure they would be what I was hoping for given the site restrictions, as I mostly find myself wishing I could take apart the wall of a library to get the lagfest scholars out, or open blocked paths from underground forts/dark fortresses/vaults.
Incidentally, the bug about not being able to spread rumors about how you slew a zombie beast/megabeast/person/etc? It can be bypassed/fixed by telling stories about the incident apparently, in case that helps.
Post by: Dirst on February 29, 2016, 07:45:49 pm
Even titans deserve a vacation! :)In general, large beasts of all kinds don't have any code at all about how they move around or attack or whatever, post worldgen.
That would explain how I got attacked by a tundra titan in a subtropical fort...
Post by: TheFlame52 on February 29, 2016, 07:51:53 pm
Post by: eternaleye on February 29, 2016, 11:48:23 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on March 01, 2016, 07:42:40 am
Post by: falcc on March 01, 2016, 11:26:53 am
I understand you aren't actually re-doing site maps right now, but will the changes you're working on for sites that cross between map tiles mean anything for cities in the future? Can cities be larger if they don't need to worry about map tiles? Are there other roadblocks to cities taking up the same space that several clustered-together villages do now?
It just seems a little odd there are villages basically right on top of each other with neighboring fields, instead of those people just having one big city with the same farming space. Things smaller than towns seem like they should be farther afield from each other and from the big towns with markets, at least on larger maps.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 01, 2016, 01:07:53 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 01, 2016, 10:27:21 pm
Before you're finished with this cycle, if you're still on-schedule, do you plan to look at fortress retirement issues one more time, or has that now been put aside until a major site overhaul (scenarios?) comes along?
With the adventurer updates, multi-racial fortresses and visitors the game almost seems to be at a stage where you can swap freely between modes and create an epic fantasy story. Almost. Sadly, merchants, wagons and swarms of "hostile" visitors wandering the halls of unretired fortresses along with tavern keepers who refuse to serve adventurers, are big, noticeable enough issues to put people off retiring for now in case their hard work is 'spoiled'. Which is a shame as they'll miss out on so much of your work until then.
Post by: cochramd on March 02, 2016, 11:49:24 am
You can pull a branch from branch tiles. We'd like to eventually make those weaker than helves that are carved from a split log (I think that's how it works anyway, avoiding the innermost bits is a goal, but I don't know much about it), but right now, it doesn't matter. The anvil paradox will come up more with picks and actual anvils, though it might be avoided as things stand with use of free-standing boulders or something.
Speaking of the anvil paradox, I've heard a claim of an artifact anvil being made from jade (though it was in Masterwork) and have seen plenty of artifact bone battleaxes and pickaxes. Would it be possible for you to force artifact versions of certain objects made from non-standard materials being produced in the "time before time" of every generated world? Doing do for every object with a "chicken or the egg" problem would resolve those paradoxes once and for all.
Post by: pikachu17 on March 02, 2016, 01:41:41 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 02, 2016, 03:19:05 pm
They don't, at least not nearly as much as they used to. Rumrusher did an experiment where he locked two goblins in a small room for four years and they only got to long-term acquaintance.Quote from: TheFlame52Because of all the performing, dwarves don't talk to each other as much any more. This means dwarves don't form relationships as easily, though I have noticed that lovers marry sooner. Are you going to do something to balance this out?
They are supposed to talk to each other during the "Socialize" breaks between performances, which last a while. I'm not sure if they are pulling it off.
Post by: DG on March 02, 2016, 06:33:38 pm
You can pull a branch from branch tiles. We'd like to eventually make those weaker than helves that are carved from a split log (I think that's how it works anyway, avoiding the innermost bits is a goal, but I don't know much about it), but right now, it doesn't matter. The anvil paradox will come up more with picks and actual anvils, though it might be avoided as things stand with use of free-standing boulders or something.
Speaking of the anvil paradox, I've heard a claim of an artifact anvil being made from jade (though it was in Masterwork) and have seen plenty of artifact bone battleaxes and pickaxes. Would it be possible for you to force artifact versions of certain objects made from non-standard materials being produced in the "time before time" of every generated world? Doing do for every object with a "chicken or the egg" problem would resolve those paradoxes once and for all.
Sounds unnecessary. I'm pretty sure that it will eventually be that you will not need a steel/iron anvil in order to make a steel/iron anvil because that make sense and is how it is in reality, which is usually the flavour Toady aims for when there's precedent.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 02, 2016, 10:07:46 pm
Post by: Putnam on March 02, 2016, 11:40:29 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 02, 2016, 11:50:27 pm
I could've sworn people could sorta curl up on the ground in fear.
Though that's technically a side effect of the discipline thing, not a fortress-mode tantrum-equivalent (TE I guess?), so it seems to be more dependent on the discipline skill than on personality values.
Plus it's independent of stress. Er, well, happiness.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 03, 2016, 03:30:25 am
I'm currently trying to get dwarves to become lovers->marry by locking them into a room with food, booze, overlapping bedrooms, a tavern zone, and a temple zone for about one year. The results vary widely:They don't, at least not nearly as much as they used to. Rumrusher did an experiment where he locked two goblins in a small room for four years and they only got to long-term acquaintance.Quote from: TheFlame52Because of all the performing, dwarves don't talk to each other as much any more. This means dwarves don't form relationships as easily, though I have noticed that lovers marry sooner. Are you going to do something to balance this out?
They are supposed to talk to each other during the "Socialize" breaks between performances, which last a while. I'm not sure if they are pulling it off.
1. Two fortress born dwarves where one knew the other, but the second one didn't have any relation to the first one: -> Lovers, no marriage.
2, 3, 4: Two fortress born dwarves who did not know each other: No relation established after one year of socializing.
5: Two of the original 17 (7+2 waves) after being friends for 55+ years: Lovers->marriage within a few months.
6: Two fortress born dwarves with a passing knowledge of each other: Still same level, but they've moved up the relation list a few steps after 2 months (
I've selected the dwarves to stand a chance of making relations (will marry opposite sex, not opposed to the thought of friendship/marriage), and in the last attempt ensured they actually did recognize the beards of each other, which turned out to be surprisingly hard, since all males but the current one from the second family turned out to know only males from the first one (within marrying age difference range).
Please tell me off if you think I'm derailing the thread.
Post by: Polywomple on March 03, 2016, 11:09:15 am
Anyway here's my question and let me know if this is too off topic:
I noticed that dwarves don't go poo. Will there be a bathroom/sewer system implemented in the future (presumably far future) For example, making use of water/plumbing mechanics to provide/maintain sanitation for your dwarves such as toilets, water cleaning machines etc. along with a whole new pooping mechanic.
Post by: Dirst on March 03, 2016, 11:17:35 am
Hi I'm new to the forums. While I was playing DF a question came up for me, and I skimmed the dev log to see if my answer was there.There are materials defined within the game called FILTH_B and FILTH_Y (a brown solid and a yellow liquid, respectively)... and non-player cities have tunnels called "sewers"... but the actual pooping is one detail that hasn't actually made it into the game for a number of reasons. It's not that poop management isn't a major concern for real medieval cities, because it was, but Toady is working on improving other parts of the simulation that are of greater interest to him and most of the players.
Anyway here's my question and let me know if this is too off topic:
I noticed that dwarves don't go poo. Will there be a bathroom/sewer system implemented in the future (presumably far future) For example, making use of water/plumbing mechanics to provide/maintain sanitation for your dwarves such as toilets, water cleaning machines etc. along with a whole new pooping mechanic.
The individual dwarves in your fort do have a number of other periodic needs like eating, drinking, sleeping, praying, drinking, socializing, and drinking.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 03, 2016, 11:45:17 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 03, 2016, 11:50:19 am
Though admit it, drowning goblin invaders in crap would be funny. :V
Post by: falcc on March 03, 2016, 12:04:47 pm
As of this coming release (.07) will carpentry workshops built in player fortresses be usable by adventurers? Or is there some kind of code difference between workshops built in fort mode and adventure mode since the later are probably more temporary and the former are really old code?
Are there any plans to make other existing workshops that occur in world gen or player fortresses available to adventurers, or will that kind of thing be put off until you decide on the final configuration for adventure mode crafting?
How closely together can adventure mode sites be placed? If you put two next to each other can you build to their edges or do they have a one tile gap prohibiting construction as in fort mode?
It'd be excellent if adventure mode construction can open up the way for continent-spanning walls to continue constructions made in fort mode.
Post by: Polywomple on March 03, 2016, 12:41:27 pm
Right. Even then, it's one of those frequently-made suggestions that comes up a lot. If I recall, the biggest reason it hasn't been added is because it's been seen as an example of unnecessary realism.
Though admit it, drowning goblin invaders in crap would be funny. :V
Fair enough its probably a topic that's been beaten dead. To be honest I'm just looking for more ways to use plumbing and water physics for various uses O.o it's addictive.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 03, 2016, 12:54:14 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 03, 2016, 03:57:44 pm
A month of updates to go before the next reply so anything could happen but...
Before you're finished with this cycle, if you're still on-schedule, do you plan to look at fortress retirement issues one more time, or has that now been put aside until a major site overhaul (scenarios?) comes along?
With the adventurer updates, multi-racial fortresses and visitors the game almost seems to be at a stage where you can swap freely between modes and create an epic fantasy story. Almost. Sadly, merchants, wagons and swarms of "hostile" visitors wandering the halls of unretired fortresses along with tavern keepers who refuse to serve adventurers, are big, noticeable enough issues to put people off retiring for now in case their hard work is 'spoiled'. Which is a shame as they'll miss out on so much of your work until then.
For toady, there is a save on the bug tracker for the serve drink issue but it is sadly going unnoticed
And has been for 10 months (which also means it's an old version)
Post by: Button on March 03, 2016, 04:14:00 pm
As of this coming release (.07) will carpentry workshops built in player fortresses be usable by adventurers? Or is there some kind of code difference between workshops built in fort mode and adventure mode since the later are probably more temporary and the former are really old code?
Are there any plans to make other existing workshops that occur in world gen or player fortresses available to adventurers, or will that kind of thing be put off until you decide on the final configuration for adventure mode crafting?
Toady has said that he doesn't plan for workshops to be used in adventure mode.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 03, 2016, 04:17:06 pm
How closely together can adventure mode sites be placed? If you put two next to each other can you build to their edges or do they have a one tile gap prohibiting construction as in fort mode?
At the moment, Fort sites can be placed pretty much side-by-side, so assuming Adventure-Forts don't allow you to set up on a pre-existing site, following Fort Modes placement rules instead, you can still build them incredibly close to one another. I believe someone has built a continent-spanning wall using forts placed side-by-side in an older version.
As mentioned, workshops are something that toady wants to overhaul, so if nothing changes at the moment, we may only get to use the carpenter's workshop in Adventure Mode.
Post by: Button on March 03, 2016, 04:21:55 pm
A month of updates to go before the next reply so anything could happen but...
Before you're finished with this cycle, if you're still on-schedule, do you plan to look at fortress retirement issues one more time, or has that now been put aside until a major site overhaul (scenarios?) comes along?
With the adventurer updates, multi-racial fortresses and visitors the game almost seems to be at a stage where you can swap freely between modes and create an epic fantasy story. Almost. Sadly, merchants, wagons and swarms of "hostile" visitors wandering the halls of unretired fortresses along with tavern keepers who refuse to serve adventurers, are big, noticeable enough issues to put people off retiring for now in case their hard work is 'spoiled'. Which is a shame as they'll miss out on so much of your work until then.
For toady, there is a save on the bug tracker for the serve drink issue but it is sadly going unnoticed
And has been for 10 months (which also means it's an old version)
Honey, there are unaddressed bugs in the tracker from 2010.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 03, 2016, 04:24:51 pm
A month of updates to go before the next reply so anything could happen but...
Before you're finished with this cycle, if you're still on-schedule, do you plan to look at fortress retirement issues one more time, or has that now been put aside until a major site overhaul (scenarios?) comes along?
With the adventurer updates, multi-racial fortresses and visitors the game almost seems to be at a stage where you can swap freely between modes and create an epic fantasy story. Almost. Sadly, merchants, wagons and swarms of "hostile" visitors wandering the halls of unretired fortresses along with tavern keepers who refuse to serve adventurers, are big, noticeable enough issues to put people off retiring for now in case their hard work is 'spoiled'. Which is a shame as they'll miss out on so much of your work until then.
For toady, there is a save on the bug tracker for the serve drink issue but it is sadly going unnoticed
And has been for 10 months (which also means it's an old version)
Honey, there are unaddressed bugs in the tracker from 2010.
"This is an image of a dragon and bugs. The dragon is surrounded by the bugs. The dragon is weeping."
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2016, 05:21:44 pm
Yeah, I was going to just post something like this in your thread, but figured it'd be more constructive to work it into a FTF question. Everyone whose played adventurer and fortress combination games has noticed the issue, the only person who can do anything about it is Toady and he needs to look at your save and work out what's gone wrong first. And, you know, make Dwarf Fortress too. He'll get there eventually.A month of updates to go before the next reply so anything could happen but...
Before you're finished with this cycle, if you're still on-schedule, do you plan to look at fortress retirement issues one more time, or has that now been put aside until a major site overhaul (scenarios?) comes along?
With the adventurer updates, multi-racial fortresses and visitors the game almost seems to be at a stage where you can swap freely between modes and create an epic fantasy story. Almost. Sadly, merchants, wagons and swarms of "hostile" visitors wandering the halls of unretired fortresses along with tavern keepers who refuse to serve adventurers, are big, noticeable enough issues to put people off retiring for now in case their hard work is 'spoiled'. Which is a shame as they'll miss out on so much of your work until then.
For toady, there is a save on the bug tracker for the serve drink issue but it is sadly going unnoticed
And has been for 10 months (which also means it's an old version)
Honey, there are unaddressed bugs in the tracker from 2010.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 03, 2016, 05:38:13 pm
Though I love the way adventure mode is going.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2016, 05:54:50 pm
I know it will happen eventually , heh this bug just makes me sad.So long as it's up on the tracker, that's the main thing.
Though I love the way adventure mode is going.
I just hate those facepalm moments when someone asks Toady about the years old xx issue which everyone on the forum except Toady is aware of because no-one got round to reporting it.
:o
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 03, 2016, 06:02:19 pm
Post by: Vattic on March 03, 2016, 07:47:15 pm
I noticed that dwarves don't go poo. Will there be a bathroom/sewer system implemented in the future (presumably far future) For example, making use of water/plumbing mechanics to provide/maintain sanitation for your dwarves such as toilets, water cleaning machines etc. along with a whole new pooping mechanic.
For a more expanded answer I'll quote Footkerchief from one of the suggestion debate threads.
Any, Toady already said he wasn't going to do it.
I don't know how this became the conventional wisdom, because (as far as I know) he's never made an unqualified statement that he wouldn't in any form implement feces, scat, waste, or night soil. The game already has a brown "filth" material that, according to Toady, is feces (see quotes below).
Here's all the quotes I could dig up (note that this first one is from 2004, and that "no plans" is very different from "won't do it"):There are no plans to add "night soil". Dwarves poop little pebbles which seemlessly disappear into the cavern floor, or they collect them and cherish them or something.Do dwarves have water closets? Will we need to carefully craft "flushing" mechanisms to carry the unmentionables away?
There is currently no potty.4. Manure, as a fertilizer.
4. They just drop it everywhere? Everyone will might be doing it after a while... night soil, and so on. But it's a dangerous door to open, especially if the room on the other side is full. If a god turns you into a horse in adventure mode, would you suddenly start dropping the bomb?
From DF Talk: (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html)QuoteToady: [...] I like the idea of being able to track things and find them, and pick up little kobold scats and dig around to see what they've been eating ... after a fashion, anyway.QuoteRainseeker: So there's no poo creatures either?
Toady: It was a close thing! Because it was literally a decision I had to make, going down this list, because in the Hidden Fun Stuff of course if you get the tentacle demons then you get a layer scattered with various filth on the ground; and there's brown filth and yellow filth and so on and it's not clearly stated but it's a material that I had to put in properties for right? So there's these hard-coded filth materials, and when I was going down the list, you know 'Do I want creatures made out of mud? Do I want creatures made out of vomit? Do I want creatures made out of glass?', there's all these hard-coded materials, and I was just like 'Yeah, yeah, yeah ... No ... No ...' on the filth. But there are creatures made out of the grime, and the grime material is the material that collects on your body slowly over time, and it's also the material that's used in swamp water, so there's this ... I just needed this material called 'grime' for these miscellaneous purposes, it's just crap, just stuff that collects over time and when a creature is made out of that it just says 'composed of grime and filth'. So if you want to call that 'poo' even though it's not it's possible for you to extend your imagination.QuoteToady: [...] But the kind of thing that's on the table is gunpowder, and the materials that you need for that are already in the game, I think. We've got brimstone, which is sulphur, and I don't remember if we have saltpetre, if it's there or not, but ... I guess you could do all kinds of things with manure and urine to make it, or you can find it in a crystalline form in the ground perhaps.
And finally, sewers full of filth were a powergoal in the old dev item system:Quote# PowerGoal153, THE CRACKS OF DOOM, (Future): You flee into the sewer with the baron's ring, but sliding in the muck, you drop it. Try as you might, you cannot locate the precious object in the town's filth.
Post by: Orbotosh on March 03, 2016, 09:02:51 pm
I noticed that dwarves don't go poo. Will there be a bathroom/sewer system implemented in the future (presumably far future) For example, making use of water/plumbing mechanics to provide/maintain sanitation for your dwarves such as toilets, water cleaning machines etc. along with a whole new pooping mechanic.
For a more expanded answer I'll quote Footkerchief from one of the suggestion debate threads.
[Snip]
Wasn't there something about Toady deciding against it because someone would inevitably exploit it in the usual DF style?
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 03, 2016, 10:06:56 pm
Wasn't there something about Toady deciding against it because someone would inevitably exploit it in the usual DF style?
See also: literally every suggestion that allows for the potential for drowning goblins and/or elves.
It was inevitable.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 03, 2016, 11:41:27 pm
Vattic you know there are ALREADY sewers in adventure mode right? Like proper sewers.. ^ like what that power goal was referring to, you cant slip yet though and they arent filled with brown filth .I noticed that dwarves don't go poo. Will there be a bathroom/sewer system implemented in the future (presumably far future) For example, making use of water/plumbing mechanics to provide/maintain sanitation for your dwarves such as toilets, water cleaning machines etc. along with a whole new pooping mechanic.
For a more expanded answer I'll quote Footkerchief from one of the suggestion debate threads.Any, Toady already said he wasn't going to do it.
I don't know how this became the conventional wisdom, because (as far as I know) he's never made an unqualified statement that he wouldn't in any form implement feces, scat, waste, or night soil. The game already has a brown "filth" material that, according to Toady, is feces (see quotes below).
Here's all the quotes I could dig up (note that this first one is from 2004, and that "no plans" is very different from "won't do it"):There are no plans to add "night soil". Dwarves poop little pebbles which seemlessly disappear into the cavern floor, or they collect them and cherish them or something.Do dwarves have water closets? Will we need to carefully craft "flushing" mechanisms to carry the unmentionables away?
There is currently no potty.4. Manure, as a fertilizer.
4. They just drop it everywhere? Everyone will might be doing it after a while... night soil, and so on. But it's a dangerous door to open, especially if the room on the other side is full. If a god turns you into a horse in adventure mode, would you suddenly start dropping the bomb?
From DF Talk: (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html)QuoteToady: [...] I like the idea of being able to track things and find them, and pick up little kobold scats and dig around to see what they've been eating ... after a fashion, anyway.QuoteRainseeker: So there's no poo creatures either?
Toady: It was a close thing! Because it was literally a decision I had to make, going down this list, because in the Hidden Fun Stuff of course if you get the tentacle demons then you get a layer scattered with various filth on the ground; and there's brown filth and yellow filth and so on and it's not clearly stated but it's a material that I had to put in properties for right? So there's these hard-coded filth materials, and when I was going down the list, you know 'Do I want creatures made out of mud? Do I want creatures made out of vomit? Do I want creatures made out of glass?', there's all these hard-coded materials, and I was just like 'Yeah, yeah, yeah ... No ... No ...' on the filth. But there are creatures made out of the grime, and the grime material is the material that collects on your body slowly over time, and it's also the material that's used in swamp water, so there's this ... I just needed this material called 'grime' for these miscellaneous purposes, it's just crap, just stuff that collects over time and when a creature is made out of that it just says 'composed of grime and filth'. So if you want to call that 'poo' even though it's not it's possible for you to extend your imagination.QuoteToady: [...] But the kind of thing that's on the table is gunpowder, and the materials that you need for that are already in the game, I think. We've got brimstone, which is sulphur, and I don't remember if we have saltpetre, if it's there or not, but ... I guess you could do all kinds of things with manure and urine to make it, or you can find it in a crystalline form in the ground perhaps.
And finally, sewers full of filth were a powergoal in the old dev item system:Quote# PowerGoal153, THE CRACKS OF DOOM, (Future): You flee into the sewer with the baron's ring, but sliding in the muck, you drop it. Try as you might, you cannot locate the precious object in the town's filth.
However..its only a matter of time.
Post by: CLA on March 04, 2016, 08:36:56 am
Do you expect, or did you already think about problems, roadblockers and obstacles regarding these? In other words, are there limitations where you think "it's just a matter of writing the code", and others where you just don't see a way to lift a restriction without major problematic implications and consequences?
I'm thinking about things like not being able to build/designate most things on the outermost tiles of your site, changing the dimensions of a site after defining it (for example increasing size on reclaiming; or decreasing size, "splitting" the site in two), overlapping sites, and similar restrictions.
This can probably be answered by anyone with a better overview of the way DF currently works (because I think technically, you can do these things already), but I'll green it, just in case.
In the past, you could connect an isolated site (for example, embarking on a remote continent) by concatenating "dummy sites" on locations you can normally not embark on with 3rd party tools: embark, abandon immediately, just so the game thinks this is a reachable site. If you'd do that all the way to your isolated site, you would then get migrants, caravans and so on.
IIRC, this behavior changed when actors started to physically move on the world map.
When adventure mode crafting/constructing/digging will be expanded, we could already theoretically build a bridge over an otherwise unpassable border (a small ocean for example). You could also do the opposite, and build a very long wall, creating a barrier. Does the game recognize these site changes already in terms of where actors are allowed to move? If so, all of them, and on all abstraction layers? Or are only some limited by player-made barriers? Can you for example pass an impassable wall by quick traveling over it?
Post by: pikachu17 on March 04, 2016, 03:29:14 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 04, 2016, 06:44:57 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on March 04, 2016, 09:09:52 pm
As of this coming release (.07) will carpentry workshops built in player fortresses be usable by adventurers? Or is there some kind of code difference between workshops built in fort mode and adventure mode since the later are probably more temporary and the former are really old code?
Are there any plans to make other existing workshops that occur in world gen or player fortresses available to adventurers, or will that kind of thing be put off until you decide on the final configuration for adventure mode crafting?
Toady has said that he doesn't plan for workshops to be used in adventure mode.
Quote
Here's a house. You can see the upper floor in the z-window on the right. The carpenter's workshop is outside(http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/imgs/adv_camp_2.png)
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 04, 2016, 09:22:25 pm
As of this coming release (.07) will carpentry workshops built in player fortresses be usable by adventurers? Or is there some kind of code difference between workshops built in fort mode and adventure mode since the later are probably more temporary and the former are really old code?
Are there any plans to make other existing workshops that occur in world gen or player fortresses available to adventurers, or will that kind of thing be put off until you decide on the final configuration for adventure mode crafting?
Toady has said that he doesn't plan for workshops to be used in adventure mode.QuoteHere's a house. You can see the upper floor in the z-window on the right. The carpenter's workshop is outside(http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/imgs/adv_camp_2.png)
Toady also said in the last fotf reply that he plans to get rid of the workshops he just put in adventure mode eventually.
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: UntrustedlifeYou said on the adventure mode df talk toady that you wanted to keep workshops out of adventurer mode - since they were more an abstraction of a concept and would be overhauled later. What changed your mind?We were happy with the figurines, so we figured we'd just toss in some more stuff. We still want to switch the workshops over, but that'll take the same amount of work either way, pretty much, and we didn't have time now to get into that, since we're between major pushes and already have other plans.
SO he wont be keeping that there and it isnt permanent .
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 04, 2016, 09:45:12 pm
Toady also said in the last fotf reply that he plans to get rid of the workshops he just put in adventure mode eventually.
Probably about as eventually as giant desert scorpions. Speaking of which...
(http://i.imgur.com/83lHRnr.jpg)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 04, 2016, 09:54:14 pm
SO he wont be keeping that there and it isnt permanent .The question still stands. In 42.07 will adventurers be able to use carpenters workshops they find in fortresses? and conversly, since we can embark on adventurer sites, will fortress dwarves be able to use carpenters workshops left lying around by adventurers?
Post by: Rose on March 04, 2016, 10:00:50 pm
Post by: Button on March 05, 2016, 08:09:25 pm
As of this coming release (.07) will carpentry workshops built in player fortresses be usable by adventurers? Or is there some kind of code difference between workshops built in fort mode and adventure mode since the later are probably more temporary and the former are really old code?
Are there any plans to make other existing workshops that occur in world gen or player fortresses available to adventurers, or will that kind of thing be put off until you decide on the final configuration for adventure mode crafting?
Toady has said that he doesn't plan for workshops to be used in adventure mode.QuoteHere's a house. You can see the upper floor in the z-window on the right. The carpenter's workshop is outside(http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/imgs/adv_camp_2.png)
Whoops! Guess I got the future and the present mixed up.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 07, 2016, 05:52:19 pm
With the adventure map loading attempting to deal with sites might this also be applied to fort mode at some point as to load sections of the map and unload?
Will moods ever result in new items and even one off workshops (like a big magic magma forge from a possessed dwarf that causes some of the dwarfs that work it to add to a cursed armor and go insane soon after) being created?
When might it be that hydras regenerate quickly and even grow back heads as well as forgotten beasts made of fire and even blobs not dying in one hit?
So some of these questions might have been answered in one or more ways already
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 07, 2016, 05:55:41 pm
So when might invaders and other guests/traders/migrants only show up from the edges of the map that can be traveled like in adventure mod so that mountains have some safety?
With the adventure map loading attempting to deal with sites might this also be applied to fort mode at some point as to load sections of the map and unload?
Will moods ever result in new items and even one off workshops (like a big magic magma forge from a possessed dwarf that causes some of the dwarfs that work it to add to a cursed armor and go insane soon after) being created?
When might it be that hydras regenerate quickly and even grow back heads as well as forgotten beasts made of fire and even blobs not dying in one hit?
Do not think I have had a dwarf get moody once, have artifacts been turned off for 42.0x?
So some of these questions might have been answered in one or more ways already
About the invaders that is already a thing as of 2 major versions ago.
The world is alive now and invaders already travel on the map realistically. SO that is a thing already.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_activities
Im sure the answer to that second question is "when I get to it".
Artifacts are definitely still on, you might just be unlucky.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on March 07, 2016, 09:27:29 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 07, 2016, 10:16:09 pm
Are you SURE that it takes direction and accessibility into account when placing invaders?What do you mean by accessibility? If an adventurer and his army of rescued children can walk over the mountains, why would a bunch of goblins not be able to? 40.x goblins found it tricky, sure, but that was a bug.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 07, 2016, 10:31:42 pm
Are you SURE that it takes direction and accessibility into account when placing invaders?
Yes, they actually move around on the world map, none of the armies in dwarf fortress "teleport" anywhere, they can move in the same places adventurers can, which is why you don't get invasions if you embark on a secluded island.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 07, 2016, 10:53:53 pm
Are you SURE that it takes direction and accessibility into account when placing invaders?
Yes, they actually move around on the world map, none of the armies in dwarf fortress "teleport" anywhere, they can move in the same places adventurers can, which is why you don't get invasions if you embark on a secluded island.
Derp. Armies and civs have checked for access since DF2012, one of my long-running Fun forts was an island that had the odd property of getting the occasional titan (correction: one titan) but no invasions. :V
EDIT:
Quote
In any case, the zones are almost done -- I just need to allow you to declare actual locations like the halls in human villages so you can claim your own site with a named group. Then a few more site tweaks, work order changes, bugs and done.
Yessss. Also bugs. I like the sound of that.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 08, 2016, 12:36:52 am
:)
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 08, 2016, 12:49:06 am
Post by: CLA on March 08, 2016, 05:13:34 am
Are you SURE that it takes direction and accessibility into account when placing invaders?
What do you mean by accessibility? If an adventurer and his army of rescued children can walk over the mountains, why would a bunch of goblins not be able to? 40.x goblins found it tricky, sure, but that was a bug.
Yes, they actually move around on the world map, none of the armies in dwarf fortress "teleport" anywhere, they can move in the same places adventurers can, which is why you don't get invasions if you embark on a secluded island.
There are several different possibilities here that all boil down to the resolution (or "abstraction level") of the checks (an interesting question is how it checks that and when/if those flags get updated after the player changes something).
For example, consider a square of 9 world map tiles adjacent to each other, so they are indeed all accessible on that level of abstraction.
However let's assume if you "zoom in", only one tile actually permits physical movement to the middle world map tile (a narrow bridge for example) - the rest is blocked.
For the sake of the argument, let that entrance be in the north (Like a 'U').
So now, your fortress is in that middle tile and the invaders are to the south.
If the game only checks general accessibility, and then "teleports" the armies to your site, they would appear on the south edge of your fortress map. (old behavior IIRC)
If the game checks on a higher resolution, they would appear on the north edge of your embark area. ("direction and accessibility").
I'm wondering, what is the actual resolution of those checks: How does the game deal with different resolutions of the same obstacle? i.e. a U-wall/moat 1. on your embark area, 2. a U-shaped obstacle on the "travel map", 3. a U-shaped obstacle on world map scale (a peninsula for example).
In other words, does an army (or anyone else) have to physically move on each tile, or do they only have to physically move on the "travel map"? Can they then move through travel map tiles from west to east, even if a bunch of them are technically only accessible from the north (but consequently marked as 'accessible')?
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on March 08, 2016, 07:35:34 am
That's what I meant.
awesome post is awesome
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 08, 2016, 10:32:59 am
Are you SURE that it takes direction and accessibility into account when placing invaders?What do you mean by accessibility? If an adventurer and his army of rescued children can walk over the mountains, why would a bunch of goblins not be able to? 40.x goblins found it tricky, sure, but that was a bug.Yes, they actually move around on the world map, none of the armies in dwarf fortress "teleport" anywhere, they can move in the same places adventurers can, which is why you don't get invasions if you embark on a secluded island.
There are several different possibilities here that all boil down to the resolution (or "abstraction level") of the checks (an interesting question is how it checks that and when/if those flags get updated after the player changes something).
For example, consider a square of 9 world map tiles adjacent to each other, so they are indeed all accessible on that level of abstraction.
However let's assume if you "zoom in", only one tile actually permits physical movement to the middle world map tile (a narrow bridge for example) - the rest is blocked.
For the sake of the argument, let that entrance be in the north (Like a 'U').
So now, your fortress is in that middle tile and the invaders are to the south.
If the game only checks general accessibility, and then "teleports" the armies to your site, they would appear on the south edge of your fortress map. (old behavior IIRC)
If the game checks on a higher resolution, they would appear on the north edge of your embark area. ("direction and accessibility").
I'm wondering, what is the actual resolution of those checks: How does the game deal with different resolutions of the same obstacle? i.e. a U-wall/moat 1. on your embark area, 2. a U-shaped obstacle on the "travel map", 3. a U-shaped obstacle on world map scale (a peninsula for example).
In other words, does an army (or anyone else) have to physically move on each tile, or do they only have to physically move on the "travel map"? Can they then move through travel map tiles from west to east, even if a bunch of them are technically only accessible from the north (but consequently marked as 'accessible')?
They don't teleport anymore they are moving around on the world map at the same resolution as the adventure mode fast travel screen ( which is actually very zoomed in I believe toady has stated it is 24x zoomed in (16+8) or more, because it used to be 16X zoomed in and he zoomed it in more in the 34.x version and he may have zoomed it in more since then) toady has mentioned this and you can see it in adventure mode.I reccomend you listen to some df talks. So yes In fact they can travel over bridges and you can observe it.That was a huge important part of the world activation release.
(The player In adventure mode is in fact stored as an "army" when fast traveling aswell (toady has said this)
This is why bandits and the player can travel on roads in cities via fast travel.
What we don't know is whether the player built structures get updated to this screen. If it does then yes the player could make bridges, if it doesn't then no. But judging by how sites look in the fast travel screen the answer would be yes.
Post by: Dirst on March 08, 2016, 10:49:34 am
What we don't know is whether the player built structures get updated to this screen. If it does then yes the player could make bridges, if it doesn't then no. But judging by how sites look in the fast travel screen the answer would be yes.If they do, I suspect it only applies to actual bridges and roads (as opposed to a "bridge" of constructed walls or somesuch), since local pathfinding is a bit much to expect at this scale.
Post by: CLA on March 08, 2016, 11:54:20 am
[...]So how is a "travel map" tile checked for impassability?
Consider this image:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/j2uj7wjhvqs7c05/asd1.png (http://www.mediafire.com/view/j2uj7wjhvqs7c05/asd1.png)
A view of a "travel map". Nothing the player did, this is just what worldgen produced. One tile in the grid is one travel map tile.
Red and orange are small sites. Green is just meadow, forest. Grey are impassable obstacles (ocean, river, wall, whatever).
The big grey area is obviously marked as impassable, as the entire tile cannot be traveled on.
On the other hand, the thin grey is a very small, still impassable obstacle in the middle of a "travel map" tile. It's not visible from the travel map, only on "fortress mode resolution".
Note that, for example the bottom row of those tiles are technically passable on the west-east axis, but not on the north-south axis.
Does the game know this? Does it consider these tiles passable or impassable?
In other words, would an army use the light blue or pink path?
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 08, 2016, 02:06:18 pm
That map of yours is at the wrong resolution, sites in the travel map are huge. So big in fact that the size you made your impassible objects would be considered an (relatively large) obstacle and they would take the pink path.[...]So how is a "travel map" tile checked for impassability?
Consider this image:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/j2uj7wjhvqs7c05/asd1.png (http://www.mediafire.com/view/j2uj7wjhvqs7c05/asd1.png)
A view of a "travel map". Nothing the player did, this is just what worldgen produced. One tile in the grid is one travel map tile.
Red and orange are small sites. Green is just meadow, forest. Grey are impassable obstacles (ocean, river, wall, whatever).
The big grey area is obviously marked as impassable, as the entire tile cannot be traveled on.
On the other hand, the thin grey is a very small, still impassable obstacle in the middle of a "travel map" tile. It's not visible from the travel map, only on "fortress mode resolution".
Note that, for example the bottom row of those tiles are technically passable on the west-east axis, but not on the north-south axis.
Does the game know this? Does it consider these tiles passable or impassable?
In other words, would an army use the light blue or pink path?
(http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/thumb/0/0e/Advmode_fasttravel_DF2014.png/400px-Advmode_fasttravel_DF2014.png)
See this map, the green is part of a small hamlet, but in the travel map you can't even see the entire hamlet, the little brown bits in the large river are small 3x4 / 3x5 (in fortress resolution) tile bridges.
but what we don't know is if player constructions would be added to this map, I think ill just let toady answer it :P
Sorry for getting so technical.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 08, 2016, 02:22:36 pm
My max speed wet from 2.5 to 3.999 and I was so fast I could jump over rivers, so I did. I then went on a rampage in the nearby human civ, and since the mist stuff was all over me, I infected many more people with creeping mist husk-ism I went on to kill over 500 people and became legendary in several skills. My "friends" who i infected (but wasnt in a party with) also got several kills on their own (some had over 30) . After my unfortunate death to bogeymen. I went into legends to look into how my buddies whom i infected held up, I noticed something odd, legends mode didn't label them as "creeping mist husks" though they still had their kills and they for some odd reason they still lived in the hamlets we destroyed (possibly by themselves) I thought this was odd so I created a new adventurer and found one of them hanging out in a house in one of the villages (killing any living things who went by) eventually killing me. It was still a thrall, but wasn't labeled as one in legends mode, is this a intended feature or a bug?
Also will people who get infected with this stuff ever lose their citizen status and rampage the world a bit like one would expect an evil thrall to do, the fact that they maintain their status as citizens in the hamlets they helped kill off is very odd and immersion breaking, and they didnt even get a reputation for killing either do you plan to remedy this?
edit:
a couple of them became "rumored killers" 2 weeks later but they still maintained citizen status in the nation also one of the site governments did in fact disapear(likely because they all died)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 08, 2016, 05:47:04 pm
So, in a recent playthrough in adventure mode, I wandered into a large evil mountain biome then into some strange yellow clouds and was turned into a creeping mist husk.Interestingly someone recently reported something similar in fortress mode. An evil thrall left the map, then a while later it returned as part of a group of migrants. Probably the same issue.
My max speed wet from 2.5 to 3.999 and I was so fast I could jump over rivers, so I did. I then went on a rampage in the nearby human civ, and since the mist stuff was all over me, I infected many more people with creeping mist husk-ism I went on to kill over 500 people and became legendary in several skills. My "friends" who i infected (but wasnt in a party with) also got several kills on their own (some had over 30) . After my unfortunate death to bogeymen. I went into legends to look into how my buddies whom i infected held up, I noticed something odd, legends mode didn't label them as "creeping mist husks" though they still had their kills and they for some odd reason they still lived in the hamlets we destroyed (possibly by themselves) I thought this was odd so I created a new adventurer and found one of them hanging out in a house in one of the villages (killing any living things who went by) eventually killing me. It was still a thrall, but wasn't labeled as one in legends mode, is this a intended feature or a bug?
Also will people who get infected with this stuff ever lose their citizen status and rampage the world a bit like one would expect an evil thrall to do, the fact that they maintain their status as citizens in the hamlets they helped kill off is very odd and immersion breaking, and they didnt even get a reputation for killing either do you plan to remedy this?
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 08, 2016, 08:44:14 pm
About the invaders that is already a thing as of 2 major versions ago.
The world is alive now and invaders already travel on the map realistically. SO that is a thing already.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_activities
Artifacts are definitely still on, you might just be unlucky.
That was to do with the map edge that they appear from seeing as they're not meant to be coming from the mountain sides. They might arrive at the side but the direction they're coming from seems unreasonable and rather random or is it that we can't travel through mountains in adventure mode?
Not sure whats up with the artifacts I really have no idea why I cannot get a single dwarf to want to make an artifact.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 09, 2016, 03:52:02 am
Post by: Bumber on March 09, 2016, 04:52:29 am
There is a switch to disable artifacts. It's on by default, but if you've modified something it the file it's in you might have changed it by mistake. The switch is also exported in the LNP UI, if you're using that.It's also related to tiles discovered. You'll never get one if you play an above-ground fort.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on March 09, 2016, 06:07:49 am
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 09, 2016, 06:25:06 am
How efficient are farms going to be in the future? Currently 200 dwarves can easily be fed with about four 5x5 farm plots without fertilizer, while in real life 2 humans need at least 10 square metres of farmland with additional foraging (not sure if this includes fertilization). Forts would be too small for farms this big. So if farming will be realistic thenwill trading with hillocks be necessary for maintaining a large fort?
Some bits here and there in the DFtalks, it's been mentioned quite a few times as an issue at least, I doubt you'll get specifics until Toady actually gets to it.
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_16_transcript.html
Toady: Yeah, I think there's definitely that ... farming is definitely one of the things that's gotten very easy, and especially with the hill dwarves ... I think when the hill dwarves go in farming is going to ... that'll be its time to become much more difficult. It's kind of strange to have a completely self-sufficient fort without some work; it should be work, instead of just having one dude that can go off and grow two hundred food without thinking about it. That doesn't square with any kind of reality, and any kind of interest or any kind of fun of any kind, so I think that's definitely one of the big things ... I think it's too easy in terms of attacks ...
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_21_transcript.html
Threetoe: Ok, the next question comes from dhokarena56, and they ask: Do you have any plans for the expansion of farming in the near or further future? It's been noted that the farming system is one of the last system that produces free stuff with no drawback - do you have on the drawing board any plans for the expansion of the overall agricultural system?
Toady: So we don't have a timeline for it. You can see the notes on the dev page and of course that's supplemented by multiple forum threads that are pretty hefty on this topic. We're all for reforming farming. We kinda took a morale hit when we got rid of our Nile flood farming from the 2D version. That's very difficult to bring back into a 3D system. And so I just haven't gotten back to farming since then and it's only kinda gotten worse and worse over time. At some point we'll come back and clean that up though.
Threetoe: Yes, kind of reminds me of the water-for-booze question and it's just like, it would make the game twenty times as hard if you couldn't get mushrooms from nothing.
Toady: Yeah, and at the same time you know, people want a little bit of challenge when it comes to those systems. Hopefully not too annoying. But kind of interesting maybe you know, terrain based, that kind of thing.
Threetoe: It is too easy to...Yeah.
Toady: Yeah. So yes, we're definitely pro...Pro stuff. Pro new farming.
Post by: Bumber on March 09, 2016, 08:39:31 am
Spoiler: Pictures (click to show/hide)
Post by: CLA on March 09, 2016, 12:54:16 pm
That map of yours is at the wrong resolution, sites in the travel map are huge. So big in fact that the size you made your impassible objects would be considered an (relatively large) obstacle and they would take the pink path.Yes, yes, I know, It was just an abstraction because it's easier to draw. Think of it as a fictional tiny site, or better yet forget sites altogether: it's just a specific point on the map.
The small grey obstacles are meant to be only 1 "fortress mode tile" wide. as thin as a wall can be.
To reiterate the question more clearly:
Is a "travel map tile" that contains a directional obstacle (i.e. an obstacle that can be traversed north-south, but not west-east) marked as passable or impassable?
Maybe this example explains it better:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/74h7h6pdcg6z6ua/asd.png (http://www.mediafire.com/view/74h7h6pdcg6z6ua/asd.png)
Which path(s) is/are valid? 'A' and '1' obviously. But Is 'C' passable? If so, '2' must be passable as well - which means B must too be a vaild route. After all, a "travel map tile" is either passable or not. If there were more information than a binary flag, the check would have to have a higher resolution, no?
If not; if B, C, 2, and 3 are all invalid paths, how does the game decide whether a tile is impassable or not?
Post by: Mr S on March 09, 2016, 04:30:10 pm
So, in a recent playthrough in adventure mode, I wandered into a large evil mountain biome then into some strange yellow clouds and was turned into a creeping mist husk.Interestingly someone recently reported something similar in fortress mode. An evil thrall left the map, then a while later it returned as part of a group of migrants. Probably the same issue.
My max speed wet from 2.5 to 3.999 and I was so fast I could jump over rivers, so I did. I then went on a rampage in the nearby human civ, and since the mist stuff was all over me, I infected many more people with creeping mist husk-ism I went on to kill over 500 people and became legendary in several skills. My "friends" who i infected (but wasnt in a party with) also got several kills on their own (some had over 30) . After my unfortunate death to bogeymen. I went into legends to look into how my buddies whom i infected held up, I noticed something odd, legends mode didn't label them as "creeping mist husks" though they still had their kills and they for some odd reason they still lived in the hamlets we destroyed (possibly by themselves) I thought this was odd so I created a new adventurer and found one of them hanging out in a house in one of the villages (killing any living things who went by) eventually killing me. It was still a thrall, but wasn't labeled as one in legends mode, is this a intended feature or a bug?
Also will people who get infected with this stuff ever lose their citizen status and rampage the world a bit like one would expect an evil thrall to do, the fact that they maintain their status as citizens in the hamlets they helped kill off is very odd and immersion breaking, and they didnt even get a reputation for killing either do you plan to remedy this?
This seems to be related to the reputations and rumors system in play with the Activated World. Since now you are no longer instantly known civ wide as an Enemy of the State for kicking a chicken in some far flung Hamlet, so also these husked citizens are not instantly and globally recognized as biological murder machines. This would be especially true if no one whom was not turned was able to escape to tell others.
The fact that they did not self ostracize is a different consideration and something as a fringe case. Currently group affiliations are kept in each entity's "soul" data. It may be a bit quirky to have a husk forget that it's a citizen and just wander off in search of yummy murder, while the folks in the next village over are still expecting to see good old Urist at the next festival day.
Also, should someone else wander into town, post rampage, and not be immediately set upon themselves, it would be difficult to assign cause to who caused all this miasma batter without witnesses to the original events. Maybe the ducks. Unless they are also husks. It could be equally plausible, to a later arrival, the some or all of the people missing from the village's heap of rotting carcasses could just as easily have fallen victim to whatever unspeakable horror befell their neighbors in some way. I imagine more forensic investigation, or inquest in general, would come into play when the law and justice system gets more work.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on March 09, 2016, 06:18:54 pm
I could just write "snip" here but I want to be cool and different so I won't
Thanks a lot for the answer! I had completely forgotten that Toady talked about farming in DFTalk. I appreciate it that you bothered to go dig up the answer from the transcript.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 09, 2016, 06:53:28 pm
Snippity snip snip snipple snippy
That was a really good answer, thank you. That is in fact probably why.
Post by: burned on March 09, 2016, 06:59:31 pm
Do the community's efforts towards UI design make an overhaul any easier? Or is it mainly a coding dread / need to figure out what layout works best for you that holds it back? There's some really nice stuff in DFHack:They probably don't look nearly as nice at DF's default resolution, so I suspect that's a consideration.Spoiler: Pictures (click to show/hide)
From DF Talk 22:
Quote
"... We noticed that a lot of people were setting up this 'peasant class' of dwarves, unskilled dwarves, that were just set up for hauling. That should be a little less necessary now.
Threetoe: Except now we're going to be working with the last of these projects will be to implement new peasant classes of dwarves.
Toady: He he he. Yeah this is the kind of VPL change we were talking about. It should be exciting to see the status of your dwarves realized. And certain ones you'll be able to control more than others. Now there will be a circumstance under which you can control any dwarf to a large degree, and that's going to be the new 'Do This Now' prioritization for jobs, which will just snatch up the nearest dwarf that can do the job (like pulling a lever), and force them to do it. They'll drop what they're doing and save your fortress. Might stress them out a little bit, depending on the kind of dwarf, but you'll be able to do that finally. And furthermore we are mindful of things like the trading jobs, the harvest, and so on, and hopefully that'll be handled with the new job selection model overall.
We are trying to stay away from spreadsheets and numbers approaches that kind of open up every single job to be ranked, you know, according to different numbers for each dwarf or workshop because that is unmanageable when the number of dwarves get high.
Threetoe: Also, it's a hint where we're going with this, which is to get rid of VPL all together, eventually.
Toady: Yeah, we would really like to restrict VPL possibly to a smaller number of dwarves that are actually the types of dwarves you would be ordering around like that. And we're also aware of kind of the 'work crew' approaches that people have, and that will also be something that is under consideration when we do understand 'fortress-citizen' status a little better."
Also, as mentioned previously, they don't look to mods and dfhack for inspiration at all. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.msg6827217#msg6827217)
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 09, 2016, 08:02:19 pm
Also, as mentioned previously, they don't look to mods and dfhack for inspiration at all. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.msg6827217#msg6827217)
Though there are times where I question the veracity of that statement. It seems highly likely that broad ideas at least could have resulted in at least looking at mods and thinking "hey, that's a good idea" :V
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 09, 2016, 09:37:22 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 09, 2016, 10:18:27 pm
They read the suggestions board thoroughly. Most mods give players what they've been asking for, and generally players asking for stuff end up on the suggestions board at some point.Also, as mentioned previously, they don't look to mods and dfhack for inspiration at all. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.msg6827217#msg6827217)
Though there are times where I question the veracity of that statement. It seems highly likely that broad ideas at least could have resulted in at least looking at mods and thinking "hey, that's a good idea" :V
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 09, 2016, 11:38:03 pm
Are we ever going to get the old "Halt in the name of the Blankety Blanks!" bandit announcement back? Also, will kobolds ever be able to talk to other kobolds?
Kobolds being buggy as fuck has been around for a while. Just replace CAN_LEARN with INTELLIGENT and retain the UTTERANCES tag. No real problem unless you subsequently mod kobolds to be playable, at which point you can venture out to visit humans and they'll give no fucks. But that's because behavior towards adventurers depends more on the NPC's entity behavior, and is generally ignorant of the adventurer's entity and their behavior.
They read the suggestions board thoroughly. Most mods give players what they've been asking for, and generally players asking for stuff end up on the suggestions board at some point.Also, as mentioned previously, they don't look to mods and dfhack for inspiration at all. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.msg6827217#msg6827217)
Though there are times where I question the veracity of that statement. It seems highly likely that broad ideas at least could have resulted in at least looking at mods and thinking "hey, that's a good idea" :V
True, that likely explains it. Plus it results in ideas flowing back and forth between regular players, the feature-hungry, bug-testers, and modders.
Post by: Mr S on March 09, 2016, 11:51:21 pm
As I understand it currently, we have a few ways of a unit being accused of a crime:
1: Half the fort sees Urist McBadtemper throw a hissy and punch some hapless clod. The severed part flies off in an arc. Report filed with Sheriff.
2: A passing Peach-Faced Lovebird Man catches a passing glimpse of Urist McCatlady running away from the butcher's workshop coated in somebody's blood, when presently Adom McCatbutcher is subsequently found dead. Rumor started.
3: Rath McTosspot has a grudge against Tal McOtherTosspot and accuses him of some real crime that he clearly has no evidence to support. Grudge continues.
4: Urist McBoneRings, DefinatelyNotAVampire, sets the blame for the recent string of deaths by exsanguination squarely on the many shoulders of a moderately sized flock of juvenile blue peafowl. Deliberately false report.
The question arises, in the farther future of Justice Arc development, how do you intend for cases of death under mysterious, or disputed circumstances to be sorted? Will there need to be an autopsy done by the Chief Medical Dwarf? Will there be a new elected or appointed Fortress Coroner position? Could the gods give us a sign?
Post by: Inarius on March 10, 2016, 10:02:53 am
Quote
The question arises, in the farther future of Justice Arc development, how do you intend for cases of death under mysterious, or disputed circumstances to be sorted? Will there need to be an autopsy done by the Chief Medical Dwarf? Will there be a new elected or appointed Fortress Coroner position? Could the gods give us a sign?
Well, autospy after a crime was something quite rare before modern times. I shouldn't expect it, even in cases of crime. Remember that DF is supposed to be during Medieval ages.
Post by: Dirst on March 10, 2016, 10:07:37 am
You don't need to look any further than vampire accusations to see how the wheels of justice roll in DF. A murder investigation would go something like this:QuoteThe question arises, in the farther future of Justice Arc development, how do you intend for cases of death under mysterious, or disputed circumstances to be sorted? Will there need to be an autopsy done by the Chief Medical Dwarf? Will there be a new elected or appointed Fortress Coroner position? Could the gods give us a sign?
Well, autospy after a crime was something quite rare before modern times. I shouldn't expect it, even in cases of crime. Remember that DF is supposed to be during Medieval ages.
"Did you, Mr. McMiner, in fact impale Mr. McFisherdwarf with your copper pick in the right side of the head?"
"No, I did not."
"Oh, come now. I don't have any evidence that you did this dastardly deed. And the wounds on Mr. McFisherdwarf do lead the imagination more toward chewing by a very large animal. But I did go to the trouble to write down these charges on a very nice sheet of paper."
Post by: Button on March 10, 2016, 11:14:29 am
Well, autospy after a crime was something quite rare before modern times.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 10, 2016, 11:37:34 am
Post by: Egan_BW on March 10, 2016, 12:10:36 pm
Post by: Inarius on March 10, 2016, 06:32:44 pm
Post by: falcc on March 10, 2016, 07:31:10 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 10, 2016, 08:27:27 pm
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 11, 2016, 01:34:33 am
Dwarfs have a more "modern" set of ethics than Humans, who are closer to medival. It'd possible that Dwarfs are fine with autopsey, while the Humans think it's disgusting.We're still to get culture being random and changing. I wouldn't even say any of the ethics are set in stone apart from not caring about trees.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 11, 2016, 05:08:59 am
Autopsy is already a subject on the medical knowledge tree in-game. Given how dedicated Toady is to realism this seems to suggest the possibility of Dwarves performing autopsies at some point.
Good. I wish to know the cranial capacity of the modern typical elf, prior and post bashing them with a war-hammer.
Post by: Orbotosh on March 11, 2016, 11:47:24 am
On that note, will it eventually be possible for us to modify the generationion code of the creatures that are currently procedurally generated like titans, werewolves, demons, ect?
Post by: Button on March 11, 2016, 11:52:18 am
Since we now have procedurally generated artforms, values and instruments, what's going to be the next part of the game to be procedurally generated?
Toady said he's currently working on the myth generator in preparation for a conference.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 11, 2016, 11:53:03 am
Autopsy is already a subject on the medical knowledge tree in-game. Given how dedicated Toady is to realism this seems to suggest the possibility of Dwarves performing autopsies at some point.
Good. I wish to know the cranial capacity of the modern typical elf, prior and post bashing them with a war-hammer.
Dwarven logic dictates that opening up the skull gives them an effectively infinite cranial capacity, via being exposed to the open air. Ergo, bashing a elf's skull in only makes them smarter. o3o
Post by: GoblinCookie on March 12, 2016, 05:41:52 am
Post by: expwnent on March 12, 2016, 07:40:14 am
Are demons supposed to be wandering the surface world in any capacity and attacking adventure mode NPC fortresses? Is this behavior a bug or a feuture?
Sometimes they emerge and take over a human or goblin civ.
Post by: Bumber on March 12, 2016, 08:01:44 am
Since we now have procedurally generated artforms, values and instruments, what's going to be the next part of the game to be procedurally generated?Recipes.
Dwarven logic dictates that opening up the skull gives them an effectively infinite cranial capacity, via being exposed to the open air. Ergo, bashing a elf's skull in only makes them smarter. o3oBut then they're just airheads. (https://youtu.be/aNK1mQfNeik?t=1m46s)
Post by: GoblinCookie on March 12, 2016, 08:03:57 am
Sometimes they emerge and take over a human or goblin civ.
I am not talking about those demons, I am talking about groups of demons wandering into adventure mode sites in adventurer mode and going on the rampage.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 12, 2016, 10:32:40 am
Sometimes they emerge and take over a human or goblin civ.
I am not talking about those demons, I am talking about groups of demons wandering into adventure mode sites in adventurer mode and going on the rampage.
Sometimes they emerge and fail to take over a human or goblin Civ, resulting in wandering demons though it's rare.
Did you breach hell recently?
Also those sites exist regardless of whether you are in adventure mode you should really specify which kind of site. Since we have world activation. Actual "Adventurer sites" are in the next version and are sites actually built by the player.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 12, 2016, 11:05:32 am
That's not happening anymore. Unique demons only arise during "year 0" by raising their slade towers and thus forming a goblin civilization (and goblin civs only arise through that). The wandering demons (which seems to be related to adding modded demons and those fighting with generated ones from my experience) aren't historical unless they've killed enough demons during the fight that "catapulted" them up.Sometimes they emerge and take over a human or goblin civ.
I am not talking about those demons, I am talking about groups of demons wandering into adventure mode sites in adventurer mode and going on the rampage.
Sometimes they emerge and fail to take over a human or goblin Civ, resulting in wandering demons though it's rare.
Recipes and games are on hold. It's unlikely they're coming unstuck before the myth generator.Since we now have procedurally generated artforms, values and instruments, what's going to be the next part of the game to be procedurally generated?Recipes.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 12, 2016, 11:44:43 am
I have had a demon in at least version 40.01 that was just hanging around in a bandit camp, so it does happen sometimes. (only 1 demon though) I wish I had looked at the legends entry for it. Unless its civ crumbled or something?That's not happening anymore. Unique demons only arise during "year 0" by raising their slade towers and thus forming a goblin civilization (and goblin civs only arise through that). The wandering demons (which seems to be related to adding modded demons and those fighting with generated ones from my experience) aren't historical unless they've killed enough demons during the fight that "catapulted" them up.Sometimes they emerge and take over a human or goblin civ.
I am not talking about those demons, I am talking about groups of demons wandering into adventure mode sites in adventurer mode and going on the rampage.
Sometimes they emerge and fail to take over a human or goblin Civ, resulting in wandering demons though it's rare.Recipes and games are on hold. It's unlikely they're coming unstuck before the myth generator.Since we now have procedurally generated artforms, values and instruments, what's going to be the next part of the game to be procedurally generated?Recipes.
Post by: GoblinCookie on March 12, 2016, 11:55:23 am
Sometimes they emerge and fail to take over a human or goblin Civ, resulting in wandering demons though it's rare.
Did you breach hell recently?
Also those sites exist regardless of whether you are in adventure mode you should really specify which kind of site. Since we have world activation. Actual "Adventurer sites" are in the next version and are sites actually built by the player.
Any kind of site will do, I have personally seen demons attack forest retreats and fortresses.
That's not happening anymore. Unique demons only arise during "year 0" by raising their slade towers and thus forming a goblin civilization (and goblin civs only arise through that). The wandering demons (which seems to be related to adding modded demons and those fighting with generated ones from my experience) aren't historical unless they've killed enough demons during the fight that "catapulted" them up.
Is that a confirmed bug then?
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 12, 2016, 12:07:48 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on March 12, 2016, 12:10:08 pm
Reply to Dragon, not a question.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 12, 2016, 12:24:53 pm
As for other situations, I'm unsure what might cause them.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 12, 2016, 12:56:26 pm
Is history even aware of mapgen properly, except for stuff like islands/rivers, etc? As in, do the actual properties of the tiles of the world affect it at all, not just various relevant bits of information e.g. evil? I haven't heard of them doing so.
Reply to Dragon, not a question.
I know you said it wasn't a question but mineral veins and where they are and biomes savagery etc. Are all handled and the game is aware of them. Also armies have to path on the world map, (even during world gen) and savagery makes the world tougher to settle. And societies are aware of what animals/minerals they have access to and use relevent materials. and Goblins tend tp start in evil biomes and humans elves etc tend to avoid settling those areas, so yes, they are aware of it.
for more info:
http://www.bay12games.com/media/Dwarf_Fortress_Talk_5.mp3
Post by: Knight Otu on March 12, 2016, 02:46:12 pm
I have had a demon in at least version 40.01 that was just hanging around in a bandit camp, so it does happen sometimes. (only 1 demon though) I wish I had looked at the legends entry for it. Unless its civ crumbled or something?Probably from a destroyed civ, or taken as prisoner at some point, yeah.
Is that a confirmed bug then?I think so. I'm not sure off-hand if it's on the bug tracker.
Post by: Rose on March 12, 2016, 03:07:27 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on March 12, 2016, 03:19:04 pm
Do you plan to ever make the north and south have opposing seasons?I'm guessing you mean only when the regions have poles on both sides of the map right?
Post by: Rose on March 12, 2016, 11:52:19 pm
Post by: Libash_Thunderhead on March 13, 2016, 12:04:04 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 13, 2016, 01:04:18 am
Any anomalies between the world size and the implied size of the globe (based on the presence of both poles) could either be abstracted away, or you could think of whatever desired excuse there is for the fact that a pocket-sized world could contain both poles while still having Earth-like gravity.
Then again, since the world in DF is always quite literally hollow (Hell and its delicious bottomless pits), this combined with the density of slade would allow for plenty of excuses to fudge the math in favor of ignoring any "how is this tiny planet still Earth-like" questions. :V
Post by: Putnam on March 13, 2016, 01:10:56 am
Perhaps the world is truely square in DF universe?
A square lying on the back of four elephants on the back of a giant tortoise, yeah.
Post by: expwnent on March 13, 2016, 02:26:48 am
Perhaps the world is truely square in DF universe?
A square lying on the back of four elephants on the back of a giant tortoise, yeah.
Don't be silly. It would have to be a disc.
Post by: Eric Blank on March 13, 2016, 04:30:08 am
Post by: ZM5 on March 13, 2016, 05:39:30 am
I'd guess it would only logically occur in the instance of a worldgen having both poles. If it lacks a pole, then we could simply assume that the "world" is only the extent of the known world and not the entirety of the globe.
Any anomalies between the world size and the implied size of the globe (based on the presence of both poles) could either be abstracted away, or you could think of whatever desired excuse there is for the fact that a pocket-sized world could contain both poles while still having Earth-like gravity.
Then again, since the world in DF is always quite literally hollow (Hell and its delicious bottomless pits), this combined with the density of slade would allow for plenty of excuses to fudge the math in favor of ignoring any "how is this tiny planet still Earth-like" questions. :V
That explanation does make a lot of sense. AFAIK a lot of succession forts that are supposed to be in the same universe lore-wise (but use different versions) use the explanation that its just one part of the world - I've taken to that explanation as well when doing regens so I don't feel bad about leaving projects behind.
As for the bottomless pits in Hell, I'm guessing they aren't literally "bottomless". Either they're very deep, i.e Marianas Trench deep, so you just keep falling, seemingly endlessly, until you eventually come to an abrupt halt and become the accordion version of yourself, or maybe they're actually portals to wherever the clowns come from, hence why they glow (and why you are, for all intents and purposes, considered "dead' when you jump into one).
IIRC wasn't there some teasing about alternate dimensions in future versions? Maybe then the glowing pits won't kill you but instead be used to go into the true "Hell" dimension.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 13, 2016, 08:44:48 am
Post by: ZM5 on March 13, 2016, 08:57:00 am
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 13, 2016, 07:03:44 pm
Disc world seems unliky but it might be a real myth.
Post by: Grus on March 13, 2016, 07:24:47 pm
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 13, 2016, 10:31:03 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 13, 2016, 11:05:48 pm
Pretty sure they're just planes, like that magic bucket that would shift your fort into the fireplane. Seems like these would just be small pockets being like 10-25 percent the size of the map existing along side. Though it might be cool if we could define them and have them linked via portals and summoning rituals.World turtles (and elephants) occur in real world myths, not just Discworld, so I wouldn't rule it out. Toady does a lot of reading in preparation for each new feature.
Disc world seems unliky but it might be a real myth.
Probably end up being hoary marmots most of the time...
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on March 13, 2016, 11:53:16 pm
"In a time before time, the Ethereal Kea tickled the Celestial Dingo, making him cough up saliva. The saliva became the oceans and rivers of the World."Pretty sure they're just planes, like that magic bucket that would shift your fort into the fireplane. Seems like these would just be small pockets being like 10-25 percent the size of the map existing along side. Though it might be cool if we could define them and have them linked via portals and summoning rituals.World turtles (and elephants) occur in real world myths, not just Discworld, so I wouldn't rule it out. Toady does a lot of reading in preparation for each new feature.
Disc world seems unliky but it might be a real myth.
Probably end up being hoary marmots most of the time...
"In a time before time, the Lobster god Cog Telethos had a nightmare, causing him to bring grey langurs into the world."
"In a time before time, the Dwarf god Urist Endar was inspired by the vocalizations of the grey langurs. Molding microline, he created the first dwarves."
Post by: CharonM72 on March 14, 2016, 03:35:02 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 14, 2016, 04:03:44 am
I think the ability to enter new, physical planes inhabited by magical beings or something of the sort as a late-game thing would enormously expand the playability of the game, and a player's motivation to continue forward. I'd love to see some planes that are hellish and require late-game and others that are just magical and maybe require luck or adventuring to get to. Just my wishful thinking...
I would love to be a planeswalker.
Post by: ZM5 on March 14, 2016, 06:18:29 am
I think the ability to enter new, physical planes inhabited by magical beings or something of the sort as a late-game thing would enormously expand the playability of the game, and a player's motivation to continue forward. I'd love to see some planes that are hellish and require late-game and others that are just magical and maybe require luck or adventuring to get to. Just my wishful thinking...I myself would love to see atleast one type of plane that sort of goes the "eldritch, surreal horror" way. Like a "land of confusion" where nothing makes sense - bizarre, completely randomly generated creatures (even weirder than already existing titans or FBs) that aren't neccessarily hostile and could be adopted by dwarves, and strange plants, i.e fleshy organic trees that sprout giant bubble-like fruit with elephants or other animals inside them, etc. Potentially a wandering "deity" megabeast that holds the dimension together.
Or alternatively something like the aforemention Pure Zones from OFF where it's just pristine nothingness - white nondescript grass, trees and stone, remnants of buildings and such - no living beings aside from giant demonic entities that'd be the "megabeasts" of the dimension.
In any case that's probably veering too close to "suggestion" territory.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 14, 2016, 06:32:15 am
Pretty sure they're just planes, like that magic bucket that would shift your fort into the fireplane. Seems like these would just be small pockets being like 10-25 percent the size of the map existing along side. Though it might be cool if we could define them and have them linked via portals and summoning rituals.Actually toady has said they could be quite big.He has even mentioned the possibility of alternate universes.(though they may only be a couple z levels tall, to save memory) Also, we will have 64 bit at that point so lots of memory available.
Disc world seems unliky but it might be a real myth.
http://www.bay12games.com/media/Dwarf_Fortress_Talk_16.mp3
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 14, 2016, 06:54:32 am
Its fun to explore pyramids, but the occasional shape change/variance would make exploring the worlds various tombs much more interesting.
Also do you plan to add isolated tombs and outside graveyards? These do exist in the real world, so why not the df world?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 14, 2016, 09:04:42 am
Post by: expwnent on March 14, 2016, 11:36:00 am
The real world doesn't have necromancers coming around to rip Uncle Fester out of his grave for nefarious purposes...
Non sequitur.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 14, 2016, 11:39:44 am
The real world doesn't have necromancers coming around to rip Uncle Fester out of his grave for nefarious purposes...
Non sequitur.
Much sequitur in fact. I would assume that the threat of necromancy would have a considerable effect on a culture's burial practices. If anything, if it got particularly bad you'd think that cremation would gain particular popularity.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 14, 2016, 12:17:05 pm
Cremation is a good choice, as is burial at locations that cannot be accessed easily, as well as guarded and trapped tombs/necropolises/catacombs. Unmarked burial would work as well, unless necros have means to locate these sites (and the neighbor may very well sell the location of your site to a necro if so, so secret unmarked burial may be a thing). You might also consider some kind of poison pill where either the body is laced with something that will destroy it if raised, or something that will keep it down (stakes through vampire hearts style, but not easily removed by a necro, or at least requiring the necro to dig out the body pysically, as opposed to raising the body to have it dig itself out).The real world doesn't have necromancers coming around to rip Uncle Fester out of his grave for nefarious purposes...
Non sequitur.
Much sequitur in fact. I would assume that the threat of necromancy would have a considerable effect on a culture's burial practices. If anything, if it got particularly bad you'd think that cremation would gain particular popularity.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 14, 2016, 12:31:23 pm
As much as I personally love the recent array of additions, have found them useful for modding, and anticipate the impending additions, I'm also concerned that little of that hype has involved bugfixes, cannibalism, or giant desert scorpions. ;A;
Post by: expwnent on March 14, 2016, 12:42:29 pm
Cremation is a good choice, as is burial at locations that cannot be accessed easily, as well as guarded and trapped tombs/necropolises/catacombs. Unmarked burial would work as well, unless necros have means to locate these sites (and the neighbor may very well sell the location of your site to a necro if so, so secret unmarked burial may be a thing). You might also consider some kind of poison pill where either the body is laced with something that will destroy it if raised, or something that will keep it down (stakes through vampire hearts style, but not easily removed by a necro, or at least requiring the necro to dig out the body pysically, as opposed to raising the body to have it dig itself out).The real world doesn't have necromancers coming around to rip Uncle Fester out of his grave for nefarious purposes...
Non sequitur.
Much sequitur in fact. I would assume that the threat of necromancy would have a considerable effect on a culture's burial practices. If anything, if it got particularly bad you'd think that cremation would gain particular popularity.
That all makes sense. I would still expect to see graveyards for ashes though.
On the other hand, necromancers tend to get corpses en masse from recent battlefields in worldgen, so maybe old corpses are safe. This is all assuming necromancers are known and common of course.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 14, 2016, 12:46:51 pm
On the other hand, necromancers tend to get corpses en masse from recent battlefields in worldgen, so maybe old corpses are safe. This is all assuming necromancers are known and common of course.
In worldgen maybe, but in gameplay any intact corpse is unsafe, as mummies aptly demonstrate.
Battlefields of course are simply a more convenient source, so clearly worldgen necromancers learned their tricks from Herbert West. o3o
Post by: expwnent on March 14, 2016, 01:18:10 pm
Post by: Dirst on March 14, 2016, 02:49:28 pm
I think the ability to enter new, physical planes inhabited by magical beings or something of the sort as a late-game thing would enormously expand the playability of the game, and a player's motivation to continue forward. I'd love to see some planes that are hellish and require late-game and others that are just magical and maybe require luck or adventuring to get to. Just my wishful thinking...Step 1. Kill a lot of elves.
Step 2. Locate the portal to the elven afterlife plane.
Step 3. Inconveniently timed drink, meal and sleep.
Step 4. Equip an army and storm the elven afterlife plane.
Step 5. Kill the same elves all over again.
Step 6. See if there's a portal to an elven afterafterlife...
Post by: burned on March 14, 2016, 03:23:12 pm
Right now all outside tombs that exist in the world are pyramids, you said in df talk 14 that your algorithm knows how to fill up any shape with rooms (including rounded areas) So my question is when do you plan to add burial mounds and burial castles?
Its fun to explore pyramids, but the occasional shape change/variance would make exploring the worlds various tombs much more interesting.
Also do you plan to add isolated tombs and outside graveyards? These do exist in the real world, so why not the df world?
Regarding the shapes of tombs, more shapes already exist beyond just a pyramid. I have encountered square and rectangle tombs and some of them have "towers" protruding from them at various corners of the previously mentioned shapes.
The circular shapes seems to be reserved for vaults and dark fortresses. But, as noted above, there is already a great variance of different architectural shapes for tombs. I would argue that it's the towers and keeps that are more standard at this point in time.
For what it's worth, from DF talk #8:
Quote
... the humans civilizations for example, it would be lame if they all had the same architecture, once I refresh my memory on what are the bits and pieces that make up the different architectures, what kind of different buildings there are and all that kind of stuff, they should make choices, then, and be able to have the towns have different characters to them when they make their walls or just their houses and various castles and little parapet things, and little spikes that stick out of the top with little flags on them, and minarets and all that kind of thing or whatever. As much diversity as you've got in the real world, as much as we can convey with a tile based format, that stuff should come across, it's one of those things where you have to engage in the project at some point and actually do it, and it's hard to time things which are superfluous in a sense, but they should be done. At first things will look vanilla, just as we get people to have walls properly and moats and tapestries and rugs and things, just making the towns look better, but as we get enough information to allow them to diversify then they should be able to do that, hopefully.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 14, 2016, 03:41:35 pm
I think the ability to enter new, physical planes inhabited by magical beings or something of the sort as a late-game thing would enormously expand the playability of the game, and a player's motivation to continue forward. I'd love to see some planes that are hellish and require late-game and others that are just magical and maybe require luck or adventuring to get to. Just my wishful thinking...Step 1. Kill a lot of elves.
Step 2. Locate the portal to the elven afterlife plane.
Step 3. Inconveniently timed drink, meal and sleep.
Step 4. Equip an army and storm the elven afterlife plane.
Step 5. Kill the same elves all over again.
Step 6. See if there's a portal to an elven afterafterlife...
What happens if they just reincarnate into animals or even dwarfs?
Post by: Dirst on March 14, 2016, 04:03:10 pm
"Wait, I can fix this..."I think the ability to enter new, physical planes inhabited by magical beings or something of the sort as a late-game thing would enormously expand the playability of the game, and a player's motivation to continue forward. I'd love to see some planes that are hellish and require late-game and others that are just magical and maybe require luck or adventuring to get to. Just my wishful thinking...Step 1. Kill a lot of elves.
Step 2. Locate the portal to the elven afterlife plane.
Step 3. Inconveniently timed drink, meal and sleep.
Step 4. Equip an army and storm the elven afterlife plane.
Step 5. Kill the same elves all over again.
Step 6. See if there's a portal to an elven afterafterlife...
What happens if they just reincarnate into animals or even dwarfs?
The world has passed into The Age of Emptiness.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 14, 2016, 04:03:22 pm
Right now all outside tombs that exist in the world are pyramids, you said in df talk 14 that your algorithm knows how to fill up any shape with rooms (including rounded areas) So my question is when do you plan to add burial mounds and burial castles?
Its fun to explore pyramids, but the occasional shape change/variance would make exploring the worlds various tombs much more interesting.
Also do you plan to add isolated tombs and outside graveyards? These do exist in the real world, so why not the df world?
Regarding the shapes of tombs, more shapes already exist beyond just a pyramid. I have encountered square and rectangle tombs and some of them have "towers" protruding from them at various corners of the previously mentioned shapes.
The circular shapes seems to be reserved for vaults and dark fortresses. But, as noted above, there is already a great variance of different architectural shapes for tombs. I would argue that it's the towers and keeps that are more standard at this point in time.
For what it's worth, from DF talk #8:Quote... the humans civilizations for example, it would be lame if they all had the same architecture, once I refresh my memory on what are the bits and pieces that make up the different architectures, what kind of different buildings there are and all that kind of stuff, they should make choices, then, and be able to have the towns have different characters to them when they make their walls or just their houses and various castles and little parapet things, and little spikes that stick out of the top with little flags on them, and minarets and all that kind of thing or whatever. As much diversity as you've got in the real world, as much as we can convey with a tile based format, that stuff should come across, it's one of those things where you have to engage in the project at some point and actually do it, and it's hard to time things which are superfluous in a sense, but they should be done. At first things will look vanilla, just as we get people to have walls properly and moats and tapestries and rugs and things, just making the towns look better, but as we get enough information to allow them to diversify then they should be able to do that, hopefully.
Thank you however:
Really? I've not seen many "non-pyramid" tombs and I grave-rob alot so since they apparently exist they are still rather rare
.
Another problem is that they are all shoved in one "tomb area" and I think there should be more smaller perhaps, isolated tombs. Around the world, perhaps for certain hist figs. People don't always shove all the tombs in one area, it happens often but not all the time, and we have no graveyards graveyards existed in the time frame toady is sticking with for df! Also, we have no burial mounds. I really want burial mounds. And those are a very common kind of ancient tomb.
I'm sure he will get to it with the "treasure hunter" arc, but I would like to hear what he says about it.
Post by: burned on March 14, 2016, 04:43:54 pm
Thank you however:
Really? I've not seen many "non-pyramid" tombs and I grave-rob alot so since they apparently exist they are still rather rare
.
Another problem is that they are all shoved in one "tomb area" and I think there should be more smaller perhaps, isolated tombs. Around the world, perhaps for certain hist figs. People don't always shove all the tombs in one area, it happens often but not all the time, and we have no graveyards graveyards existed in the time frame toady is sticking with for df! Also, we have no burial mounds. I really want burial mounds. And those are a very common kind of ancient tomb.
I'm sure he will get to it with the "treasure hunter" arc, but I would like to hear what he says about it.
The "non-pyramid" issue sincerely must be rng related, because I often don't see pyramids. Heh. I have seen a lone pyramid on occasion, but my experience is usually a cluster of squares and rectangles with various "towers", which is why I can confidently say they exist. And I've also seen them spread out and not clustered with more than one 0 on the map in the same area.
Note: I put towers in quotes, because they aren't like the open towers found in dark pits and they can only be accessed by entering the base of the larger rectangle or square.
So, while the town/city typically place their dead inside tombs under the various temples and also the 0s on the map, you're right that burying dead via graveyard or burial mounds or some other method (whether that's later tied to a specific civ based on burial traditions and such) is currently not present much like various architecture for civs themselves is not present (but is planned).
You're also right that Toady will most likely tackle that when the treasure hunter arc is addressed.
DF Talk #11:
Quote
So, the positive side here is that the new development page has a section for treasure hunters, and that's when we're going to go back and make sure that we're getting the proper ruins from ...
And previously he specifically mentioned graveyards and tombs as separate things.
DF Talk #5:
Quote
With the ruins, ruins just kind of decay over time, but there's no sediment laid down, so things don't ever become buried, and I think it's crucial to bury things, especially in a game that involves this much digging. So those are planned, if you look at core sixty seven there's ruins there, core sixty eight is graveyards and tombs which is related, core sixty nine is ole battlefields, and core seventy is fortress ruins; how that specifically relates to your own fortress and the ruins there. So those four core items are all meant to address that kind of thing.
Post by: Max™ on March 15, 2016, 12:08:07 am
After all, a "travel map tile" is either passable or not. If there were more information than a binary flag, the check would have to have a higher resolution, no?Armies move at full travel speed on roads/open areas, they move slower across things like the walls around large towns/cities, and the larger areas of buildings tend to slow anything that diverges from the road quite a bit.
Armies travel far too fast through dark pits/dark fortresses/mountains, usually when they wind up entering those regions from one of the more zoomed in site-travel map tiles.
You can see this yourself if you enter any impassable site from the west on foot, move a tile or so inside and try to travel again, when you find the right spot it lets you travel around freely within that site.
I haven't tried it with the walls around the inner sections of a town (i.e. the gated ones with streets inside around, not the walls around the keep) but they're an example where there's only a north/south or east/west route available (outside of occasionally glitched connections where part of the wall can be skipped diagonally) and sometimes you get things where the keep itself is partially open so you can travel right up next to it, though it usually spawns you on top of the wall over the front gate, opposite the doors to the keep.
Never been spawned over the side tower exits yet.
I have not added any modded demons, banshee of soot is one of the generated types, I still have no clue how it got to the surface. I haven't revealed hell in this world at all.That's not happening anymore. Unique demons only arise during "year 0" by raising their slade towers and thus forming a goblin civilization (and goblin civs only arise through that). The wandering demons (which seems to be related to adding modded demons and those fighting with generated ones from my experience) aren't historical unless they've killed enough demons during the fight that "catapulted" them up.Sometimes they emerge and take over a human or goblin civ.
I am not talking about those demons, I am talking about groups of demons wandering into adventure mode sites in adventurer mode and going on the rampage.
Sometimes they emerge and fail to take over a human or goblin Civ, resulting in wandering demons though it's rare.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh, a question!
Will we be able to build using available materials or only logs? If I have blocks or boulders could I use those instead? Naturally I would expect the hauling time to be slower for boulders vs faster build-time with blocks and so forth.
Post by: Button on March 16, 2016, 02:12:44 am
Post by: Max™ on March 16, 2016, 04:02:42 am
Post by: Neonivek on March 16, 2016, 09:43:40 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 16, 2016, 10:51:51 am
Will the Myth generator actually be leading to the Gods actually existing and stomping around and all that?I believe it's been said there would be some kind of slider or setting where the strength of magic and religion is determined (and I'd guess they would be separate), with the possibility to make gods completely unresponsive (basically our reality) at one end, and cursing and granting boons left, right, and center at the other. I don't think they'll be allowed to enter the world, though, at least not now.
Post by: Amperzand on March 16, 2016, 01:13:08 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 16, 2016, 01:26:13 pm
If nothing else, you'd have gods getting decapitated by thrown small animals and the like, which would make history somewhat unusual.
So when we eventually commit deicide via fluffy wambler, I'm gonna name it Friedrich.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 16, 2016, 02:35:22 pm
I've seen people roam back and forth like that before on the travel map. It's always weird when I bump into someone traveling that I've met traveling before.
I wouldnt say thats weird, more like "consistent"
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 16, 2016, 04:04:03 pm
Post by: Button on March 16, 2016, 05:14:32 pm
Will we ever get more spheres or secrets? I'm not greening this because I'm pretty sure this has already been answered.
Unsure about more spheres. There will certainly be more secrets in the magic arc.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 16, 2016, 05:24:19 pm
Will we ever get more spheres or secrets? I'm not greening this because I'm pretty sure this has already been answered.Yes. Toady has mentioned a few times that more spheres are likely to come into play (such as here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg2069500;topicseen#msg2069500)), and the oft-mentioned myth generator also generates styles of magic, which presumably can take the form of secrets.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 16, 2016, 05:33:40 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on March 16, 2016, 06:19:58 pm
Spoiler: A short list of tweets to look at (click to show/hide)
In short, in the program that Toady used, there are several different elements, color-coded for convenience - among them Great Beings (I'm assuming they're the Chronos-type older gods as opposed to members of pantheons), Individuals (such as Numon the Cosmic Hydra or Lezetion the Raven), "power sources" that permeate the universe, artifacts (apparently so far only two types?), planes and their connections, etc. The first elements that have no direct parent are primordial (there's also celestial, seen in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyA4QD_6-2A)). One element I'm not sure what they are (the Didia, the Sikyceus and the Futhete in the example), though they kind of sound like races or maybe pantheons. There also may be side myths of some kind - in the sidebar, there are a few individuals mentioned that aren't in the main text - such as Dukecete the Ibis, listed before Lezetion, and one tweet mentions egg fragments, which aren't seen at all in the screenshots.
The different races have different views, or even realities what happens to their soul after death, and in the mythology generated in the talk, "rare bloodlines" of dwarves have the ability to utilize the force of the Shifting Blood (perhaps because they were formed by it directly?).
(It also looks like the myth got a bit unlucky with a multitude of "spontaneously formed" and such. The preview video had at least one instance of X breathed into existence Y.)
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 16, 2016, 06:30:10 pm
NINJAED: That's pretty awesome myth stuff. I can't wait!
Post by: Max™ on March 16, 2016, 07:48:09 pm
I wouldnt say thats weird, more like "consistent"Mean weird as in halfway across a 129x129 in different directions.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 17, 2016, 01:30:49 am
Quote
[MAX_EDGE:1000] no swords until you can pick mats
Now that we CAN pick mats for stone short swords, will we ever get this restriction removed for native copper and native silver? :V
Post by: Inarius on March 17, 2016, 06:07:58 am
They are not suggestion, because i'm not necessarily "asking" for this, but more that I know to have an answer.
Will we ever have adamantine items in non-player fortress mode ? (trading threads, or adamantine socks ? It could be a great incentive to find and trade with deep fortresses in adventure mode !)
If yes, could we see some dwarf fortresses in Legend mode collapsing because they dug too far into adamantine ?
More generally, is the information about the circus and the clowns something people (Dwarves or others) know or not ?
Do people in DF believe in myths or are they just legends and accepted as such ? Are there some people believing, while others don't ?
Will the myths explain the existence of the circus and the clown (and adamantine, perhaps), too ?
In your plans are Humans, elves and gobelins able to "make" artifacts or is it limited to Dwarves ?
And about magic (I don't know if you have thought about it yet, but still curious), are all intelligent races be able to do magic (human/elves/goblins/dwarves), and the same types of magic (some civilizations, limited to some types, of magic, in relation with things such as where they live or the gods they worship...).
Could other intelligent races perform magic too (dragons ? Some specific titans ? Fire-based creatures ?).
Would some non-intelligent races or "location" could have an affinity with magic without really controlling it (faeries, for example?), or even creatures based on magic ?
Thanks, Toady !
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 17, 2016, 07:07:12 am
Some questions about the future development (Myth/artifacts/magic):Toady can probably provide more in depth answers (and probably did at GDC) but as far as I understand it, the creation of the universe is unique to each world and each races affinity with magic is related directly to that creation process. Clowns and such are also part of the process, so again, could well be unique in each world. In addition each race has their own interpretation of the creation myth.
They are not suggestion, because i'm not necessarily "asking" for this, but more that I know to have an answer.
Will we ever have adamantine items in non-player fortress mode ? (trading threads, or adamantine socks ? It could be a great incentive to find and trade with deep fortresses in adventure mode !)
If yes, could we see some dwarf fortresses in Legend mode collapsing because they dug too far into adamantine ?
More generally, is the information about the circus and the clowns something people (Dwarves or others) know or not ?
Do people in DF believe in myths or are they just legends and accepted as such ? Are there some people believing, while others don't ?
Will the myths explain the existence of the circus and the clown (and adamantine, perhaps), too ?
In your plans are Humans, elves and gobelins able to "make" artifacts or is it limited to Dwarves ?
And about magic (I don't know if you have thought about it yet, but still curious), are all intelligent races be able to do magic (human/elves/goblins/dwarves), and the same types of magic (some civilizations, limited to some types, of magic, in relation with things such as where they live or the gods they worship...).
Could other intelligent races perform magic too (dragons ? Some specific titans ? Fire-based creatures ?).
Would some non-intelligent races or "location" could have an affinity with magic without really controlling it (faeries, for example?), or even creatures based on magic ?
Thanks, Toady !
So, doesn't really answer your questions, but it could be that the only answer is 'it depends what the myth generator comes up with' (plus sliders and such on how 'mythical' you want your world to be).
Post by: Neonivek on March 17, 2016, 08:08:17 am
Toady, perhaps you could give a full rundown on the myth system your working on if possible?
Everyone is dying to know and I am sure questions are going to be pouring in (heck I have 50). Though I'd understand if that is either too much information OR if your leaving it as a surprise later. Heck I'd love a copy of that myth generator even if it is just a trial.
Ok I will say... A LOT of eggs in myth creation O-o...
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 17, 2016, 10:32:09 am
Snip
As far as the magic part goes, check out Cado's Magical Journey (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_journey.html). While I of course recommend reading it all, (and the rest of Threetoe's stories, it's an oft-overlooked goldmine of info) at the bottom there's an analysis by Toady and Threetoe shedding some light on how they envision magic to work as well as a little bit about afterlives and other planes, supernatural beings etc.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 17, 2016, 11:29:25 am
Snip
As far as the magic part goes, check out Cado's Magical Journey (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_journey.html). While I of course recommend reading it all, (and the rest of Threetoe's stories, it's an oft-overlooked goldmine of info) at the bottom there's an analysis by Toady and Threetoe shedding some light on how they envision magic to work as well as a little bit about afterlives and other planes, supernatural beings etc.
I reccomend you guys read that aswell.
Post by: Max™ on March 17, 2016, 12:32:23 pm
No way to replicate something like the tracking interface to see magic threads/ley lines with any sense yet, but that does make me wonder.
Will being able to change the colors/tile/etc for track indicators end up in the raws? The yellow/green is easy to see but in some areas it makes it hard to see where you're even at, much less where you're trying to track towards. I love being able to follow people/creatures and whatnot, gives a nice adventurous feel to track them across mountains and streams and get the "you have located a lair" announcement pop up, but it's annoying when I hit a big crossroads and the entire visible region of ground is obscured with a sea of bright green/yellow.
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 17, 2016, 01:56:30 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 17, 2016, 02:02:56 pm
Will there ever be randomly-generated relationships between gods? How about personalities for them? I want my dwarves' pantheons to be as colorful as the Greeks'!
Urist McLena, Queen cancels mandate slade mugs: interrupted by swan.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on March 17, 2016, 02:25:54 pm
Urist McPrincess cancels kill bull, cannot find path.Will there ever be randomly-generated relationships between gods? How about personalities for them? I want my dwarves' pantheons to be as colorful as the Greeks'!
Urist McLena, Queen cancels mandate slade mugs: interrupted by swan.
Post by: Putnam on March 17, 2016, 02:43:13 pm
A lot of the effects in that story can be replicated to various extents with dfhack and modding, launch for telekinesis, spd 9.9 for the time-slowing, the healing with a recuperation jacking ability which could now have increasing side-effects with use, advfort can let you "open" a wall, my artifact crit/onepunch script does the "force your fist through the future" effect well.
As I see it, having to manually implement it and require the player to do things to get access to it means it might as well not be done at all. That's why I'm so obsessed with systems like Fortbent's classes or Sparking's ki, those don't require player input, they use a lot of hackery to make conditions happen (the former through Roses' class stuff, the latter through a bunch of stuff I wrote myself)
Post by: Knight Otu on March 17, 2016, 03:28:10 pm
Will there ever be randomly-generated relationships between gods? How about personalities for them? I want my dwarves' pantheons to be as colorful as the Greeks'!
Relations are definitely part of the myth generator. I think it has at least been hinted that personalities and such are part of it as well, to better flesh out the Temple Building starting scenarios.
Quote from: InariusIn relation to religion ,is any sort mythology generation (god X father of god Y, genealogy tree, relationships between gods like in most mythology or things like this) an idea you are working on, or will gods remain independant from each other ?We've been toying around with a test generator and have quite a bit lined up now for the world gen artifact releases which will follow the tavern releases. All sorts of new stuff should make it in.
Will we ever have adamantine items in non-player fortress mode ? (trading threads, or adamantine socks ? It could be a great incentive to find and trade with deep fortresses in adventure mode !)I recall a post by Toady where he stated that Dug-too-deep events for worldgen forts almost happened during one release. Ah, here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=30026.msg853384;topicseen#msg853384). As such, it should remain on the table, as far as adamantine and demons exist in the post-myth-generator worlds.
If yes, could we see some dwarf fortresses in Legend mode collapsing because they dug too far into adamantine ?
Will the myths explain the existence of the circus and the clown (and adamantine, perhaps), too ?One of the screenshots above mentions Dorania Demons (along with an individual of those), and the preview video even had two groups named Demons, so I think it's safe to say yes here.
In your plans are Humans, elves and gobelins able to "make" artifacts or is it limited to Dwarves ?Artifacts won't be unique to dwarves (though strange moods probably will remain so):
And about magic (I don't know if you have thought about it yet, but still curious), are all intelligent races be able to do magic (human/elves/goblins/dwarves), and the same types of magic (some civilizations, limited to some types, of magic, in relation with things such as where they live or the gods they worship...).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 17, 2016, 07:25:51 pm
Post by: Inarius on March 18, 2016, 03:54:31 am
Quote
the only answer is 'it depends what the myth generator comes up with'
If this is the answer, so be it, it doesn't bother me !
@ Manveru Taurënér : thanks ! I'll read it as soon as I can !
@ Knight Otu : Thanks again.
Post by: Neonivek on March 18, 2016, 06:30:45 am
What with them being in Dark Fortresses, appearing on the legends list, and being smack dab right there in the myth generator to come.
Post by: Mesa on March 18, 2016, 08:34:16 am
Also why are "Clowns" still "Clowns"? I think at this point they have more then stepped into common knowledge.
At this point it's more of an inside joke than an anti-spoiler measure, really.
At least that's how it seems to be to me.
(man I haven't been here in forever.)
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 18, 2016, 08:42:45 am
Post by: Libash_Thunderhead on March 18, 2016, 09:19:28 am
I guess clown is just old habbit when you are not sure whether you should use spoiler code, those who understand it understand it anyway.
Post by: expwnent on March 18, 2016, 09:22:59 am
Post by: Egan_BW on March 18, 2016, 09:32:57 am
Post by: expwnent on March 18, 2016, 09:48:54 am
It only made sense back in 40d anyway when all of them were packed into a small enclosed space.
Post by: Neonivek on March 18, 2016, 09:54:59 am
The existence of 'clowns'... is kind of public knowledge.
They aren't even spoilers anymore. So why do we still treat them like spoilers?
Post by: Egan_BW on March 18, 2016, 09:59:01 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 18, 2016, 10:04:56 am
Seriously though, it's kind of annoying to be chatting on a thread about worldgen features and have someone shout 'Spoiler tags!' at you. Will be much more so come the myth generator.
"In the beginning there were spoilers, the spoilers made the clowns, and the clowns brought the circus into being by utilizing the spoilers. The spoiler of clowns spoilered the spoiler bringing into being the dwarves."
Gonna get rather silly...
Post by: Inarius on March 18, 2016, 11:30:31 am
Of course, everybody knows what it is.
If I used the term "clowns", it's because -as Maks said- it's an inside joke.
I have always thought that these terms (candy, HFS, clowns, etc.) were something fun and quite original.
Post by: Zesty on March 18, 2016, 11:39:32 am
Post by: Neonivek on March 18, 2016, 11:49:47 am
It's been over a year since the last Dwarf Fortress Talk. It'd be great to hear one of those sometime if you guys can find the time.
That isn't a question or Lime green.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 18, 2016, 12:37:29 pm
Also why are "Clowns" still "Clowns"? I think at this point they have more then stepped into common knowledge.
What with them being in Dark Fortresses, appearing on the legends list, and being smack dab right there in the myth generator to come.
And yet there was still that one instance in DF2012 where someone got tricked into opening up the curious underground structure, and hilarity ensued. o3o
Post by: Max™ on March 18, 2016, 12:42:46 pm
At least I saw less dorfs and Urists recently.Hey, I have an actual adventurer dwarf race called dorfs and I never get sick of hearing "Greetings, dorf." as I wander around.
I guess clown is just old habbit when you are not sure whether you should use spoiler code, those who understand it understand it anyway.
Urists are also the best unit of measurement ever, screw all this metric vs imperial crap!
That door is 2 by 3 Urists, a 3 Urist long spear weighs 5 Urists, and it's a chilly 9500 Urists outside.
I always thought it was Happy Fun Stuff though, not Hidden.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 18, 2016, 12:47:58 pm
Apparently this means that angels are Hidden and Fun, but not Stuff.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 18, 2016, 01:21:52 pm
It seems HFS is more or less official, since HFIDs are used for associating angels and divine metals with deities.That's Historical Figure ID, though, not Hidden Fun ID. :P
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 18, 2016, 01:25:11 pm
That's Historical Figure ID, though, not Hidden Fun ID. :P
Boooo, spoil my fun. XP
Post by: Robsoie on March 18, 2016, 03:03:45 pm
I mean gameplay impact in the sense of by example the
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 18, 2016, 03:20:25 pm
Will the myth generator going to have impact at gameplay time during adventure mode ?
I mean gameplay impact in the sense of by example thein opposition to being just dialogue description from a NPC ?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For sure, it will involve artifacts you can use and magic systems you can explore. And alternate planes you can go to and such.
Post by: Robsoie on March 18, 2016, 03:50:55 pm
That sounds frankly great.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 18, 2016, 04:09:41 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 18, 2016, 06:06:19 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 18, 2016, 06:09:37 pm
And villians who will plot to steal artifacts from you (and elsewhere). No more, "Smaug the Dragon is our greatest foe, in his spite he stole a pigtail sock."(hopefully).
I'm sure there will still be plenty of sock theft, via eating people the socks are attached to.
Post by: Zesty on March 18, 2016, 06:16:55 pm
It's been over a year since the last Dwarf Fortress Talk. It'd be great to hear one of those sometime if you guys can find the time.
That isn't a question or Lime green.
A post I saw said "Green" and it's something I'd like a response to. Fixed the color.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 18, 2016, 06:22:52 pm
Still, if the GDC talk video doesn't go up for free any time soon a chat about myth-gen would be much appreciated.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 18, 2016, 06:24:49 pm
I think Toady responds to either, but standard green is really hard to read on some monitors.It's been over a year since the last Dwarf Fortress Talk. It'd be great to hear one of those sometime if you guys can find the time.
That isn't a question or Lime green.
A post I saw said "Green" and it's something I'd like a response to. Fixed the color.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 18, 2016, 07:20:26 pm
In the podcast Toady gave the same reply he's given the past few times he's been asked about Dftalk. Nice but takes time, requires thinking about topics.Would love this.
Still, if the GDC talk video doesn't go up for free any time soon a chat about myth-gen would be much appreciated.
Post by: Neonivek on March 19, 2016, 03:46:07 am
It's been over a year since the last Dwarf Fortress Talk. It'd be great to hear one of those sometime if you guys can find the time.
That isn't a question or Lime green.
A post I saw said "Green" and it's something I'd like a response to. Fixed the color.
Ok I am guilty :P it is any of the greens. Though yeah Lime Green is easier to read.
Post by: Dirst on March 19, 2016, 07:43:30 am
Edit: phone's autocorrect doesn't like lime.
Post by: Libash_Thunderhead on March 19, 2016, 07:56:48 am
Because clowns are scary.Pennywise and candy?
Post by: Rose on March 19, 2016, 09:38:30 am
They float!Because clowns are scary.Pennywise and candy?
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 19, 2016, 01:43:12 pm
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on March 19, 2016, 01:51:07 pm
I have always thought that these terms (candy, HFS, clowns, etc.) were something fun and quite original."The Circus" is also the nickname of MI6, though that may well be a coincidence.
Post by: cochramd on March 19, 2016, 02:07:26 pm
Will dwarven merchants ever haul their wares on the backs of dralthas?
Somewhat related: Will we ever see caravans and sieges come from the caverns instead of above ground? Will we ever be able to start a fortress in the caverns and have to dig up to the surface, instead of starting on the surface and digging down to the caverns?
Post by: Button on March 19, 2016, 03:11:24 pm
Will dwarven merchants ever haul their wares on the backs of dralthas?
You can mod this in.
Post by: ZM5 on March 19, 2016, 03:27:37 pm
Didn't Toady say something about sieges being able to dig through stuff in future updates? Wouldn't that imply this could happen as well?Will dwarven merchants ever haul their wares on the backs of dralthas?
Somewhat related: Will we ever see caravans and sieges come from the caverns instead of above ground? Will we ever be able to start a fortress in the caverns and have to dig up to the surface, instead of starting on the surface and digging down to the caverns?
On top of that there's also the issue of subterranean animal-person civs, dunno if Toady said anything about what they'll be like in future versions but I'm guessing sieges or atleast ambushes from them will pop up at some point (I myself have never seen ambushes from them, ever, correct me if they are in the game already)
Post by: Inarius on March 19, 2016, 05:03:18 pm
They float!Because clowns are scary.Pennywise and candy?
They all float down here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPdDdC4go6c)
Anyway, has anyone has a video of Toady's talk at the GDC ?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 19, 2016, 11:37:30 pm
1) Will the link between creation, gods and magic or innate abilities generated by the myth generator also include other intelligent races like ettins, blizzard men, yetis(?), etc? In other words, in some worlds will we be surprised by yetis throwing buckets of water at us because some God blessed them in a time before time.
2) Will natural abilities generated for each race differ between civilizations of the same race? For example 'beloved by Urgust the God of Plague, the goblins of 'goblin civ A' were gifted with the ability to spread disease'. Would make for much Fun if we don't know exactly what's coming when the vile force of darkness arrives.
3) And speaking of which, how available will any of this information be to the player? If not, right up front, might generated myths, magical abilities and so on be investigated later in Legends? I can imagine bug reports of players confused as to why half the dead goblins on the battlefield got up and started fighting again if it's not possible to check somehow. The background info would help a lot for setting the scene when writing stories too, I expect.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 20, 2016, 12:25:55 am
They float!Because clowns are scary.Pennywise and candy?
They all float down here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPdDdC4go6c)
Anyway, has anyone has a video of Toady's talk at the GDC ?
Would love to hear what he was talking about only saw that picture of the myths.
Seeing as you spoke about on the podcast about optimisation and said there was alot that could be done code wise. Seeing as all players judge how playable the game is by FPS and some have even have refused to move on to the newer versions because of degraded perfomance, how do you judge when to do optimisation of something?
Some of the creatures act a bit strange such as wolves not wanting to attack a long dwarf and dwarfs canceling jobs because of keas will there be a pack mentality for the wolfs and something to make dwarfs not worry about birds that are high in the sky?
There appears to be a limit of group of creatures on the map and some even get stuck due the climbing (fish refuse to leave, some that arrive in the caverns just sit there on the edge if they're in water) would this also be moved over to init values for each level of the map for the amount of groups that there can be?
Post by: Pootis on March 21, 2016, 02:43:04 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 21, 2016, 03:06:34 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 21, 2016, 03:37:04 pm
Is there a limit to the number of books one person can write? There seems to be.what?
Ive seen necromancers make many many books, I don't think there is a limit.
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 21, 2016, 03:39:55 pm
Post by: Orbotosh on March 21, 2016, 03:46:38 pm
But I've seen elven scholars write a book every year and then suddenly stop and do nothing for the next 400 years.
You can afford to be lazy when you live forever.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 21, 2016, 04:28:06 pm
Do you ever envision doing something similar with fighting styles as you've done with artistic forms? (Martial arts)Yes. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
Quote
Combat styles
- Combat styles involving weapons or natural attacks with associated stances and moves
- Ability to learn moves, etc. from others with whom you have a high enough reputation
- Certain moves may only be available as specific counters, while others might just be regular attacks
- Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled
There's a bit more information in a few of the DF Talk transcripts, as well.
Unfortunately, the GDC talk video will (most likely) end up behind a pay wall for the time being. We'll have to contend with the information from those tweets and the preview video for now.Anyway, has anyone has a video of Toady's talk at the GDC ?
Would love to hear what he was talking about only saw that picture of the myths.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 21, 2016, 04:42:32 pm
Do you ever envision doing something similar with fighting styles as you've done with artistic forms? (Martial arts)Yes. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)QuoteCombat styles
- Combat styles involving weapons or natural attacks with associated stances and moves
- Ability to learn moves, etc. from others with whom you have a high enough reputation
- Certain moves may only be available as specific counters, while others might just be regular attacks
- Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled
Ah, but we hardly need such while we have Kisat Dur (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.0).
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 21, 2016, 05:35:49 pm
Ah, but we hardly need such while we have Kisat Dur (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.0).But I want my enemies to use Kisat Dur on me.
Post by: Max™ on March 21, 2016, 11:15:30 pm
Some people like to spank, and some like to be spanked.Ah, but we hardly need such while we have Kisat Dur (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.0).But I want my enemies to use Kisat Dur on me.
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 22, 2016, 07:44:45 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 22, 2016, 10:11:10 am
It's more of a "I want my enemies to have a fair chance" sort of thing.
Madness. Either you curbstomp your foes, or you get curbstomped. ;w;
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 22, 2016, 07:28:34 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on March 23, 2016, 12:51:13 am
Will there ever be a visible sign of pregnancy?In the case of "will there ever" questions, the answer is more often than not a "yeah, maybe, no timeline" if it sounds reasonable, and in this case I would bet that it will eventually come around, just so you can pick out which of your dwarves is pregnant, or note a woman in adventure mode is pregnant and give her a blessing from the pregnancy god or whatever.
Is the myth generator able to invent reasoning for gods having the particular spheres they do?
Post by: Inarius on March 23, 2016, 03:10:01 am
Quote
Is the myth generator able to invent reasoning for gods having the particular spheres they do?
I can't find a specific quote, but it seems that I saw something about this few months ago. So that's a "yes".
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 23, 2016, 03:24:21 am
Quote
The creation myth generator was very well-received, and I look forward to getting it into the game as soon as I can so you can all create worlds with this new foundation. First we need to get this release done! I'm continuing with the last steps of adventure site creation now.
Sweet zombie Jesus yessss.
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 23, 2016, 08:06:28 am
Post by: ZM5 on March 23, 2016, 08:24:00 am
I definitely look forward to seeing what the game's logic is for giving me a god of poetry, writing, and death.That's nothing - I want to see the logic behind a god of revelry, family, rainbows, death and chaos.
Anyway, will we eventually see in-game effects of pulping besides just the flavor text? By that I mean, if a blunt attack causes a creatures head to "explode into gore", will we see an explosion of eyes, teeth and skull fragments, similarly to what happens when teeth are punched out?
Post by: Egan_BW on March 23, 2016, 08:31:32 am
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 23, 2016, 08:48:11 am
Anyway, will we eventually see in-game effects of pulping besides just the flavor text? By that I mean, if a blunt attack causes a creatures head to "explode into gore", will we see an explosion of eyes, teeth and skull fragments, similarly to what happens when teeth are punched out?I asked that one already and I think the answer was "maybe". But go ahead, it might be a different answer now.
Post by: ZM5 on March 23, 2016, 08:56:02 am
If one of a god's spheres is Chaos, any other combination of spheres is justified, because chaos.Alright, replace "chaos" with "suicide" then.
Post by: cochramd on March 23, 2016, 10:30:45 am
I definitely look forward to seeing what the game's logic is for giving me a god of poetry, writing, and death.Odin.
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2016, 10:47:10 am
If one of a god's spheres is Chaos, any other combination of spheres is justified, because chaos.
Chaos doesn't mean "Randomness". Think of classical chaos as upheaval, banditry, and riot.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 23, 2016, 11:49:33 am
Besides that, the meaning of "chaos" is not clearly defined in-game, so it could reflect that interpretation or possibly a mad or trickster god. Toady could go either way in the future.
Post by: Mr S on March 23, 2016, 03:29:11 pm
Anyway, will we eventually see in-game effects of pulping besides just the flavor text? By that I mean, if a blunt attack causes a creatures head to "explode into gore", will we see an explosion of eyes, teeth and skull fragments, similarly to what happens when teeth are punched out?
Also, do note that "explodes in gore" != "the severed part(s) flies(y) off in an arc". To say that a wet mess is cast off at high velocity does not necessarily imply that anything in that slippery mess is intact or, even, identifiable. Teeth, horns, nails, etc. make sense since they are very hard and dense, and tend to break off. Eyes, brains and other soft tissues tend to not do so well when rapidly expelled from their usual and customary placement.
Part of this mess is covered by the puddles of blood left after combat. Ichor as well. However, since we have ground coverings like leaf litter now, maybe a tile covered in elm leaves and eleven grey matter wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 23, 2016, 04:12:44 pm
Anyway, will we eventually see in-game effects of pulping besides just the flavor text? By that I mean, if a blunt attack causes a creatures head to "explode into gore", will we see an explosion of eyes, teeth and skull fragments, similarly to what happens when teeth are punched out?
While the post above gives a good answer, this inspires another question from me.
Will there ever be lasting effects from mangled body parts in adventure mode? As ith every injury, travelling or resting seems to heal up any tissue capable of healing, meaning that a mangled body part is utterly shrugged off unless nerve damage occurred.
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2016, 08:07:05 pm
A god aligned with chaos and decay might switch up it's other spheres occasionally, or pick their spheres at random or specifically choose the ones not covered by other gods.
Besides that, the meaning of "chaos" is not clearly defined in-game, so it could reflect that interpretation or possibly a mad or trickster god. Toady could go either way in the future.
It is the opposite of Order. So it isn't the randomness Chaos.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 23, 2016, 08:36:48 pm
Post by: cochramd on March 24, 2016, 10:31:04 am
Post by: Neonivek on March 24, 2016, 07:35:11 pm
The opposite of randomness is predictability. Predictability is aligned with order.
Yes but that is like saying that Apples are the opposite of Oranges.
Apples are Red... Thus Red must be the opposite or Oranges.
I know that the idea of "Order vs. Chaos" is lost on modern times due to order being a given nowadays and has been repurposed to mean unpredictability vs. Predictability. Yet that isn't what I infer Dwarf Fortress is going for.
I still think it is going for the Classical Order as in Lawfulness, Peace, and civilization and Chaos as in Upheaval, unlawfulness, and war.
---
Or rather in modern times... Order and Chaos are Complimentary Opposites: Yin and Yan
In Classical thinking... Order and Chaos are contradictory opposites: Good and Evil.
---
MIND YOU... This did lead to the whole "People who aren't civilized are deficient or in need" mentality.
But when was moral ambiguity in dwarf fortress a bad thing?
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 24, 2016, 09:02:14 pm
I am aware that you can use travel mode and < and > to go back up to the surface, but it is very hard to get out of forts if you don't do this.
Post by: Dirst on March 24, 2016, 09:07:05 pm
Toady do you plan to improve NPC dwarven fortress generation, right now they are very random, and hard to navigate do you plan to make them more navigable in the future?You were expecting a trap-filled corridor followed by a magma chamber? I think it would be hard to make those forts navigable without making them all seem cut from the same pattern.
I am aware that you can use travel mode and < and > to go back up to the surface, but it is very hard to get out of forts if you don't do this.
I should talk... all of my forts follow the same basic pattern.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 24, 2016, 09:10:43 pm
Post by: Trainzack on March 25, 2016, 12:22:47 am
You were expecting a trap-filled corridor followed by a magma chamber? I think it would be hard to make those forts navigable without making them all seem cut from the same pattern.
Personally I would expect a less chaotic layout, where you can reasonably find a main stairway. :VIt's kinda funny how this conversation is on a completely different topic, and yet is still about randomness vs. predictability.
Post by: NJW2000 on March 25, 2016, 06:00:14 am
Is there?
I know pretty much nothing, but expect this would be impossible.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 25, 2016, 07:38:20 am
Toady could make them more navigable by having a main multilevel hallway in the middle with the rooms branching from that to the sides and by shooting out smaller 1 wide hallways to the sides so everything natturally leads to the main hallway. I love procedural generation . However this might make forts too similair I suppose even though this is how I build my forts.You were expecting a trap-filled corridor followed by a magma chamber? I think it would be hard to make those forts navigable without making them all seem cut from the same pattern.Personally I would expect a less chaotic layout, where you can reasonably find a main stairway. :VIt's kinda funny how this conversation is on a completely different topic, and yet is still about randomness vs. predictability.
Post by: cochramd on March 25, 2016, 09:58:25 am
Post by: Fniff on March 25, 2016, 10:39:04 am
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 25, 2016, 10:48:06 am
Why is it that worldgen forts never dig down deeper than the first cavern layer?No, they dig all the way to the magma sea, they just wall up the caverns.
Post by: cochramd on March 25, 2016, 11:17:12 am
Have you actually seen this happen? I've never done anything in Adventure Mode, so I only think that worldgen forts only breach the first cavern becauseWhy is it that worldgen forts never dig down deeper than the first cavern layer?No, they dig all the way to the magma sea, they just wall up the caverns.
A) Only cavern creatures of the first cavern layer appearing on the civilization's training screen.
B) All the wood and animal products the caravan brings come from the first layer.
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 25, 2016, 11:36:52 am
Post by: cochramd on March 25, 2016, 11:39:40 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 25, 2016, 11:40:03 am
Meanwhile I can't recall dwarves ever having cavern pets. The embark screen always shows regular domestic pets, whereas it's only in materials available for leather/meat/etc that reflect their using cavern creatures.
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 25, 2016, 12:17:07 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 25, 2016, 06:22:47 pm
Post by: Inarius on March 25, 2016, 06:42:13 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 25, 2016, 07:40:11 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 25, 2016, 07:48:02 pm
But why don't they reclaim their old sites once they're below that threshold again?
I've seen reclaim expeditions get sent out, but I'm unsure if it's random or based on a given logic.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 25, 2016, 08:04:20 pm
But why don't they reclaim their old sites once they're below that threshold again?Pretty sure they do if they have the spare dwarves and feel like it.
Unless the world itself is at it's site limit.
What makes you think they stop despite being under the limit?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 26, 2016, 03:38:38 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 26, 2016, 11:21:01 am
Will npc adventurers get any site building skills during this cycle? Would be nice to run into a monster hunter's mountain lodge full of Forgotten Beast bone figurines.
They can already make "camps" which they sleep in during the night.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 26, 2016, 01:59:58 pm
Or will it be as complicated as a custom spell creator based on the worlds rules like "custom spell" -> "I want to create fire" -> "fire ball" ->"shoot it"-> " and I want it to be blue" alright game: " cost : an entire arm" y or n . "Save template"
Or will it be somewhere in the middle?
Cado's magical journey is a good example of a complex magic system based on rules that seems fun.
Post by: ZM5 on March 26, 2016, 03:12:53 pm
So how deep will the magic systems be, will it be as simple (and might I add, boring) as a "create bucket of water" button.Gonna add onto this, though it probably has been asked before - will we see artifacts that allow for magical abilities?
Or will it be as complicated as a custom spell creator based on the worlds rules like "custom spell" -> "I want to create fire" -> "fire ball" ->"shoot it"-> " and I want it to be blue" alright game: " cost : an entire arm" y or n . "Save template"
Or will it be somewhere in the middle?
Cado's magical journey is a good example of a complex magic system based on rules that seems fun.
For that matter, will there be "doomsday" artifacts that are sought out by cult-like entities and can cause one of any number of potential end of the world scenarios, wheter it be as simple as "zombie apocalypse", a meteor dropping and killing most of the living populations, or something more complex such as a Ragnarok-type of apocalypse?
Post by: PTTG?? on March 26, 2016, 04:00:55 pm
Post by: ZM5 on March 26, 2016, 04:14:43 pm
If such artifacts exist, then the PC better be able to use them.Would be pointless if we couldn't. With the new site building I'd definitely make my own cult dedicated to seeking out such artifacts (should there be multiple ones within a world) and unleashing them all at once.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on March 26, 2016, 04:29:50 pm
So how deep will the magic systems be, will it be as simple (and might I add, boring) as a "create bucket of water" button.Cado's Magical Journey is what they want the magic system to be like.
Or will it be as complicated as a custom spell creator based on the worlds rules like "custom spell" -> "I want to create fire" -> "fire ball" ->"shoot it"-> " and I want it to be blue" alright game: " cost : an entire arm" y or n . "Save template"
Or will it be somewhere in the middle?
Cado's magical journey is a good example of a complex magic system based on rules that seems fun.
Post by: Dirst on March 26, 2016, 08:49:06 pm
Have you ever seen the Potion Miscibility Table from AD&D or the Magical Item Interaction Table from Rolemaster? :)If such artifacts exist, then the PC better be able to use them.Would be pointless if we couldn't. With the new site building I'd definitely make my own cult dedicated to seeking out such artifacts (should there be multiple ones within a world) and unleashing them all at once.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 26, 2016, 09:00:56 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on March 27, 2016, 12:54:12 am
You could target yourself, too. Rip your own head's skin off.
Actually, that was cool enough. I'd be up for that.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 27, 2016, 02:20:00 am
And hopefully, if the development notes are up to date, you won't be the only one in the world with that idea. An organic process that actually leads naturally to memorable villains who become the player's nemeses will be pretty cool.If such artifacts exist, then the PC better be able to use them.Would be pointless if we couldn't. With the new site building I'd definitely make my own cult dedicated to seeking out such artifacts (should there be multiple ones within a world) and unleashing them all at once.
Post by: GoblinCookie on March 27, 2016, 07:45:35 am
Each civ has a site cap, don't they?
No, the whole world has a site cap; there is no per civ site cap. :)
Post by: ZM5 on March 27, 2016, 08:42:50 am
Have you ever seen the Potion Miscibility Table from AD&D or the Magical Item Interaction Table from Rolemaster? :)I haven't actually :E
And hopefully, if the development notes are up to date, you won't be the only one in the world with that idea. An organic process that actually leads naturally to memorable villains who become the player's nemeses will be pretty cool.Yeah, that's what I meant by cults seeking such artifacts out. That'd be amazing to actually have randomly-generated villains in the world.
Post by: Max™ on March 27, 2016, 03:14:56 pm
...actually.Each civ has a site cap, don't they?
No, the whole world has a site cap; there is no per civ site cap. :)
Code: [Select]
[MAX_STARTING_CIV_NUMBER:25]
[MAX_POP_NUMBER:15000]
[MAX_SITE_POP_NUMBER:100]The relationship between max pop and max site pop sets a cap per civ as I recall.Yup, as I said a page or two back, you can do many of the effects from the story now via modding/dfhack/both. Some aren't really possible to simulate currently (like, I can make anyone hurtle across the screen into a wall and explode if I want, but making an item fly controllably into my hand? not yet, though perhaps with the combat style expansion we'll get projectile catching options) and some are easier than others (the slowing time/megapunching, as well as cumulative side effects via syndrome concentration are both pretty straightforward modding exercises now) but it's easy enough to picture things like the dancing "move to x" interface, perhaps one using a cursor to trace shapes in real time, the "continue or move to interrupt" pacing, and so forth.So how deep will the magic systems be, will it be as simple (and might I add, boring) as a "create bucket of water" button.Cado's Magical Journey is what they want the magic system to be like.
Or will it be as complicated as a custom spell creator based on the worlds rules like "custom spell" -> "I want to create fire" -> "fire ball" ->"shoot it"-> " and I want it to be blue" alright game: " cost : an entire arm" y or n . "Save template"
Or will it be somewhere in the middle?
Cado's magical journey is a good example of a complex magic system based on rules that seems fun.
I imagine the projectile/action-at-a-distance aspects will probably accompany a rework of the ranged combat system, hopefully at least, I mean rightfully when you're zooming around at 10.0 speed you should see crossbow bolts hanging in the air and just walk past them or interact/grab them... not to mention being able to aim attacks at foes flying through the air like npcs can.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 28, 2016, 04:03:47 am
Will philosophers and poets be able to create their own myths or adept other cultures to their own?
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 28, 2016, 11:25:15 am
Will magic enable Elves to create metal weapons and armor or will they be able tp get their own magical enchanted metal that they can craft into what they need?
Will philosophers and poets be able to create their own myths or adept other cultures to their own?
I doubt that forest-native elves will get such a thing unless we get different entities for different flavors of elves. The issue isn't a moral distaste for metalworking, but lacking the technological developments.
Being able to have better material qualities for different types of wood is a more likely solution.
Post by: ZM5 on March 28, 2016, 11:51:37 am
Will magic enable Elves to create metal weapons and armor or will they be able tp get their own magical enchanted metal that they can craft into what they need?Aside from what Random_Dragon said about them lacking technological advancements, I think the more likely solution would be them getting special, unique types of wood that have similar effectiveness to different metals.
Will philosophers and poets be able to create their own myths or adept other cultures to their own?
Post by: Max™ on March 28, 2016, 01:50:34 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 28, 2016, 02:16:33 pm
Stone could use a similar degree of fleshing out. In addition to the obvious idea of beefing up the max edge for native copper/silver, it would be nice if chert could be usable. :V
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 28, 2016, 10:11:39 pm
Post by: expwnent on March 28, 2016, 10:43:47 pm
Post by: Alfrodo on March 29, 2016, 03:19:12 pm
In essence, can we build a monastery in the middle of a mountain range or a stationary "boat" over an ocean, where you can't build fortresses?
Post by: PTTG?? on March 29, 2016, 04:52:19 pm
How is Scamps doing?A Scamps Activity Liveblog would be ideal.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 29, 2016, 05:02:45 pm
Post by: ZM5 on March 29, 2016, 05:10:18 pm
Post by: expwnent on March 29, 2016, 05:22:27 pm
How is Scamps doing?A Scamps Activity Liveblog would be ideal.
Or a picture or whatever.
Post by: Dirst on March 29, 2016, 05:27:38 pm
Scamps allows Toady to post once in a while. You want this cat to submit to being photographed as well?How is Scamps doing?A Scamps Activity Liveblog would be ideal.
Or a picture or whatever.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 29, 2016, 06:10:18 pm
Scamps featured in full leg scratching glory in a Tweet when Toady got back from the gdc. No photo sadly.How is Scamps doing?A Scamps Activity Liveblog would be ideal.
Or a picture or whatever.
Post by: Button on March 30, 2016, 12:12:18 am
For context of where the game's at now, here are the before-and-after-embarkation war counts of the civs in my most recent (42.06) world, leaving out kobolds. I embarked in spring 300 and retired in spring 305. Please keep in mind that each war is being counted twice, once for each civ involved.
| Civilization | Race | Wars started 1-299 | Wars started 300-304 | Status |
| The Late Knives | Dwarves | 1 | 7 | Active |
| The Demon of Speech | Goblins | 1 | 42 | Active |
| The Union of Paper | Humans | 4 | N/A | Dead |
| The Thorn of Playing | Elves | 3 | N/A | Dead |
| The Sweetness of Gloss | Elves | 3 | 9 | Active |
| The Sling of Smoothness | Dwarves | 0 | 29 | Active |
| The Grapes-empires of Shadow | Humans | 3 | N/A | Dead |
| The Lie of Prices | Goblins | 4 | N/A | Dead |
| The Shaken Gate | Dwarves | 1 | 1 | Player |
| The Growths of Embracing | Elves | 1 | 24 | Active |
| The Lurid Devil | Goblins | 1 | 67 | Active |
| The Blameless Kingdoms | Humans | 1 | N/A | Dead |
| The Ram of Diversions | Elves | 3 | N/A | Dead |
| The Nation of Chastity | Humans | 7 | 18 | Active |
| The Squashed Arches | Dwarves | 0 | 19 | Active |
| The Pure Sea | Elves | 14 | 7 | Active |
| The Staff of Weakness | Dwarves | 6 | 12 | Active |
| The Furious Realm | Humans | 3 | N/A | Exile |
Total wars 1-299: 23 wars across 18 civs across 300 years = 0.00426 wars/civ/year
Total wars 300-304: 117.5 wars across 11 civs across 5 years = 2.14 wars/civ/year
Yeah, somehow I came up with an odd number of wars in the 5 year period. It's almost certainly an error on my part, but this took a while even with Legends Viewer, the numbers are so different that a couple wars here or there are insignificant, and I need to go to bed.
Post by: PTTG?? on March 30, 2016, 02:11:11 pm
Quote from: Toady
Let's see... wrapped up adventurer site creation. They are claimable by player entities and retire-in-able, so it all seems to be working, but I'm sure it'll be an entertainly bumpy ride on this first release. The XML dump provides exact site rectangles now. Next up, I want to bring manager work orders into line with the last release's job detail settings, and a few other quality of life issues (removing the 30 limit, etc).
Hmmm, lots of this sounds interesting. I'm not going to add any sugguestions, but definitely looking forward to the QOL changes. More exciting is the idea of making an adventurer, going into the wilderness and building a cabin, retiring there, then embarking onto the cabin and adopting the adventurer, then retiring the fort and taking over the adventurer...
Post by: Max™ on March 31, 2016, 12:43:48 am
Post by: Illgeo on March 31, 2016, 01:59:44 am
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 31, 2016, 03:08:04 am
When might dwarfs be able to be put into a vegetative state?
Seeing as the next update is pretty mostly the artifact one, in Fortress Starting Scenarios For "Possible expansion of religious and family concepts to provide sufficient scenarios" does that mean that some culture's and religions will be discriminatory?
Will Fortress Starting Scenarios change the way requirements, demands and mandates are done so they extend to the point where nobles can have their own laws even jus primae noctis?
Might be thinking a bit too far ahead.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2016, 07:59:03 am
I guess it might make sense thematically, but are you going to wait until the economy arc to replace them, or are you considering replacing them sooner with something like the current visitor mechanics?
Post by: Knight Otu on March 31, 2016, 10:16:36 am
I know it's a big task, and yeah, it'll take some time out of the schedule, and sure, it doesn't fit the theme of the next arc ...Bugfixes are still on the schedule for this release (see the 03/07/2016 devlog), and rarely are on theme for the next arc (and the plan is that before that next arc, at least an attempt at 64-bit will be made, so possibly at least one more release after this before the artifacts section). Whether those specific bugs will be handled is another question, though.
Post by: Neonivek on March 31, 2016, 10:34:10 am
Quote
The Lie of Prices
Or perhaps "The Lie of Sacrifice"
Or "The Illusion of Sacrifice"
Or "The Illusion of Gold"
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 31, 2016, 11:12:15 am
Sometimes I think Dwarf Fortress is a lesson in why you don't use direct translationsQuoteThe Lie of Prices
Or perhaps "The Lie of Sacrifice"
Or "The Illusion of Sacrifice"
Or "The Illusion of Gold"
Or perhaps they don't believe in money? :V
Post by: Knight Otu on March 31, 2016, 01:25:13 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2016, 03:52:00 pm
Yeah, I was wondering if he was really just going to continue fixing up merchant bugs or if he was now ready to replace them altogether, something he said he put off doing this time because it would take so long due to very old code).I know it's a big task, and yeah, it'll take some time out of the schedule, and sure, it doesn't fit the theme of the next arc ...Bugfixes are still on the schedule for this release (see the 03/07/2016 devlog), and rarely are on theme for the next arc (and the plan is that before that next arc, at least an attempt at 64-bit will be made, so possibly at least one more release after this before the artifacts section). Whether those specific bugs will be handled is another question, though.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on March 31, 2016, 04:41:49 pm
I know it's a big task, and yeah, it'll take some time out of the schedule, and sure, it doesn't fit the theme of the next arc but...merchants destroying masterworks? Invisible merchants? Merchants and their wagons spamming the citizen lists upon fortress unretirement? It appears that there's something fundamentally incompatible with the way merchants work (and their old, old code which you've mentioned from time to time) and the way the world works now. And it seems to be getting worse.B...b...but I want vandal ghost ninja titans!
I guess it might make sense thematically, but are you going to wait until the economy arc to replace them, or are you considering replacing them sooner with something like the current visitor mechanics?
You can weaken ma' carp, calm ma' Dorfs, nerf ma' zombies, but don't you... don't you... don't you get rid of ma' masterwork-destroying dragons on the edge of the map!
Post by: Toady One on March 31, 2016, 04:46:41 pm
Quote from: Neonivek,Inarius,Shonai_Dweller,Eric Blank,ZM5,KillzEmAllGod
many myth questions which I attempt to address with a rambling reply
First of all, perhaps the word "myth" was a poor choice -- the stories generated are (optionally) true. If you set the "fantasy rating" of the world to zero, it still builds a series of events, but those are then just stories (perhaps at a civilization level, not really decided how they might interweave between civs). If you set the parameters to allow for it, then the story is correct, which creates a kind of shared lore for the world. Each race has a different thread of the story they tell based on which events resulted in their creation, mostly, though there are some differences in emphasis which can make the racial stories sound quite different from each other. I haven't tried to mix false and real beliefs yet, and that might just lead to confusion.
The myths it creates can lead to varied game elements, especially since you can just turn them off and on with parameters. We won't be able to get everything in all at once, but we should have a healthy first pass. This could change the end-game in player forts significantly, for instance, or make a certain form of magic occur everywhere, opening up new workshop/job chains etc., whereas other magic would resist industrialization/familiarity. There are various frequency/bloodline/requirement variables that come up, so individuals of a given race won't all be the same. We're hoping to add new landforms in the first release (giant region-sized cosmic egg shell fragments, and so forth), and eventually get to entire planes that you can visit in either mode (the difficulties there are the same as the difficulties with getting a separate off-site battle map up in fort mode, pretty much, and we'll probably handle them at once, in the distant future). Important artifacts will come up in the first pass -- the generator has stuff like looms that guide all of fate and so forth, and I'm not really sure how your interactions with those will go.
We're not quite sure how the exposition is going to work -- there's worldgen itself, where we're hoping to make the process highlight the important world elements and mythical events instead of just giving you the current technical rundown. Legends mode should have lots of information, and we're hoping it comes up in conversation/written works/art etc a bit as possible, as it does with historical events. Certain elements might occur in chargen and the embark screen as well, if they apply. It still remains to be seen just how confusing it all is and where we'll need to focus. If you set your world's fantasy rating to the maximum, there won't even be dwarves, just some playable race with random traits and a random name, but at least that exposition problem comes from opting-in through the maxed-out parameter, so it's not crucial to get it right immediately.
Quote
Quote from: Max^TMas excited as I am at the thought of being able to dig/channel/ramp without dfhack, I must ask if you have any plans to add deconstruction tasks? Though I'm not sure they would be what I was hoping for given the site restrictions, as I mostly find myself wishing I could take apart the wall of a library to get the lagfest scholars out, or open blocked paths from underground forts/dark fortresses/vaults.Quote from: Max^TMwill we be able to disassemble our own constructions and free up materials for reuse later on?
Yeah, you can remove constructions, but since it only happens on your own sites, it's just useful for modify your own maps.
Quote from: TheFlame52
What part(s) of a general's personality dictate(s) their actions/effectiveness?
I haven't spent much time with this so it's very placeholdery. The civ leader's personality comes up more than the general's, since the civ leader decides where to attack and when. For that, it compares the army strengths, ethical mismatches, past disputes and other historical events to confidence, ambition, propensity to anger, excitement-seeking and recklessness in a few different passes. A general's actual effectiveness in a given battle is just a function of the tactics, leadership and organization skills they pick up in world gen as they go. Since there isn't much data in world gen in terms of position/strategy/tactics/logistics/etc. etc. etc., there's not much to work with so I only went that far.
Quote from: falcc
I understand you aren't actually re-doing site maps right now, but will the changes you're working on for sites that cross between map tiles mean anything for cities in the future? Can cities be larger if they don't need to worry about map tiles? Are there other roadblocks to cities taking up the same space that several clustered-together villages do now?
Cities already go across world map tile boundaries, and I'm happy with their size. They seem to be have appropriate core areas for period cities, though perhaps some of the nearest villages should be a little more built up, and the artificial popcap of 10000 is forced by cpu/mem, but the area is still about right (about 2.5 square kilometers depending on how you consider tile size). The main problem is that we can't have more village areas overall, and that's not likely to change due to technical constraints.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Are there any plans to add a stress-reaction equivalent to going catatonic? It stands out a bit in that the existing forms of insanity all got fleshed out with tantrum-equivalents of their own, while the new type of permanent affliction didn't get an equivalent. Or was there a particular reason for stress-vulnerable dwarves not having a comparable temporary affliction?
The basic issue is that there are three relevant propensities in the personality facets (anger, anxiety and depression), and if a dwarf is low in all three facets, none of the end results matched their personality, so we just had them check out using some old catatonia code. Stress-vulnerability isn't the same as the other three facets, since it impacts the speed of the descent more than pointing to a type of manifestation, and, yeah, right now the random selection of a tantrum type for low-facet dwarves is not satisfying. It's not meant to be a final system or one that even makes much sense, but it's not high priority to change it either.
Quote from: falcc
As of this coming release (.07) will carpentry workshops built in player fortresses be usable by adventurers? Or is there some kind of code difference between workshops built in fort mode and adventure mode since the later are probably more temporary and the former are really old code?
Are there any plans to make other existing workshops that occur in world gen or player fortresses available to adventurers, or will that kind of thing be put off until you decide on the final configuration for adventure mode crafting?
How closely together can adventure mode sites be placed? If you put two next to each other can you build to their edges or do they have a one tile gap prohibiting construction as in fort mode?
There's no difference between the workshops. If you have logs and a carpenter's shop in a fort, you'll be able to use them.
I'm not sure how the ordering is going to work. It's not superhard just to add more workshop support as we go, and then switch the whole game over to whatever workshop replacement we come up with later. The real work is probably in fortress mode anyway, so I don't think there's a lot of lost time to be concerned over, at least how it has gone so far with carpentry.
If I recollect, you can still build on the edges in adv mode, and you can place them right next to each other. The game-breaking isn't as clear as it is in fort mode with siegers/wilderness creatures, though if you are dedicated you can mess up the army pathing a bit with a string of adv camps. That sort of exploit isn't a high priority, but we'd like to handle it better at some point.
Quote from: CLA
With map tile boundaries about to fall, can we expect similar limitations/hard-coding to disappear as well?
Do you expect, or did you already think about problems, roadblockers and obstacles regarding these? In other words, are there limitations where you think "it's just a matter of writing the code", and others where you just don't see a way to lift a restriction without major problematic implications and consequences?
I'm thinking about things like not being able to build/designate most things on the outermost tiles of your site, changing the dimensions of a site after defining it (for example increasing size on reclaiming; or decreasing size, "splitting" the site in two), overlapping sites, and similar restrictions.
This can probably be answered by anyone with a better overview of the way DF currently works (because I think technically, you can do these things already), but I'll green it, just in case.
In the past, you could connect an isolated site (for example, embarking on a remote continent) by concatenating "dummy sites" on locations you can normally not embark on with 3rd party tools: embark, abandon immediately, just so the game thinks this is a reachable site. If you'd do that all the way to your isolated site, you would then get migrants, caravans and so on.
IIRC, this behavior changed when actors started to physically move on the world map.
When adventure mode crafting/constructing/digging will be expanded, we could already theoretically build a bridge over an otherwise unpassable border (a small ocean for example). You could also do the opposite, and build a very long wall, creating a barrier. Does the game recognize these site changes already in terms of where actors are allowed to move? If so, all of them, and on all abstraction layers? Or are only some limited by player-made barriers? Can you for example pass an impassable wall by quick traveling over it?
I don't think the timing of other hard-coded issues is related at all. It really depends on what I'm working on at the time. There are various issues with the potential changes you've listed, so I wouldn't expect them any time soon.
It understands more about movement in worldgen sites -- for player sites, it doesn't keep track of where armies/travelers etc. can move, and it's likely to be a complicated problem to solve. When we have worldgen walls and so forth, we might see some attempts to manage it, but it's not a priority right now.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
How are insurrections calculated? Does the number of hearthpeople play a factor? Does it work differently with adventurer lords?
Let's see... it goes by each cultural identity at the site, and it only considers those where the majority opinion is against the occupation or ruler. They assume that the occupier is initially strong (since they conquered the site), so perceived strength starts at 100%. That is changed in a few ways -- it is adjusted with the actual occupier populations, so if new hearthpeople come on or hearthpeople are killed, the percentage changes (it can be above 100). It can also be changed by active rumors/witnessed events -- if somebody was brazen enough to start a conflict with the occupier, it goes down by 1%, and kill-rumors of entity soldiers drop it by 5%. If there's still a rumor of an insurrection that was crushed, strength is stuck at 100% until it is forgotten. If perceived strength ever drops below 50%, an insurrection can begin, randomly. So the odd thing is that it doesn't consider raw numbers or actual outcomes at all. There's a lot of work to do.
Quote from: KillzEmAllGod
Will moods ever result in new items and even one off workshops (like a big magic magma forge from a possessed dwarf that causes some of the dwarfs that work it to add to a cursed armor and go insane soon after) being created?
When might it be that hydras regenerate quickly and even grow back heads as well as forgotten beasts made of fire and even blobs not dying in one hit?
I'm not sure how moods will change going forward. The new magic system stuff is likely to have an impact on them, though I'd suspect more on the properties of existing items than some new product... although the generated magic systems do have some procedures that can be followed to make certain new objects. Hard to say what'll go in until I get there.
I don't have a timeline for changing the particulars of combat or doing regeneration.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
My max speed wet from 2.5 to 3.999 and I was so fast I could jump over rivers, so I did. I then went on a rampage in the nearby human civ, and since the mist stuff was all over me, I infected many more people with creeping mist husk-ism I went on to kill over 500 people and became legendary in several skills. My "friends" who i infected (but wasnt in a party with) also got several kills on their own (some had over 30) . After my unfortunate death to bogeymen. I went into legends to look into how my buddies whom i infected held up, I noticed something odd, legends mode didn't label them as "creeping mist husks" though they still had their kills and they for some odd reason they still lived in the hamlets we destroyed (possibly by themselves) I thought this was odd so I created a new adventurer and found one of them hanging out in a house in one of the villages (killing any living things who went by) eventually killing me. It was still a thrall, but wasn't labeled as one in legends mode, is this a intended feature or a bug?
Also will people who get infected with this stuff ever lose their citizen status and rampage the world a bit like one would expect an evil thrall to do, the fact that they maintain their status as citizens in the hamlets they helped kill off is very odd and immersion breaking, and they didnt even get a reputation for killing either do you plan to remedy this?
That sounds like a bug. They should have lost all of their connections when they got husked, but apparently they still maintain attachments.
Having every NPC act properly is an overall goal, but it's a difficult problem.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Are we ever going to get the old "Halt in the name of the Blankety Blanks!" bandit announcement back? Also, will kobolds ever be able to talk to other kobolds?
Updating bandit ambushes was in our list of things to do in the shorter term to make adventure mode better, but we only get through a portion of that list in these releases. Somehow that ended up with adventurer-created sites this time. Kobolds aren't supposed to be able to talk in a meaningful way to other kobolds, but they should talk more as a general behavior.
Quote from: Mr S
The question arises, in the farther future of Justice Arc development, how do you intend for cases of death under mysterious, or disputed circumstances to be sorted? Will there need to be an autopsy done by the Chief Medical Dwarf? Will there be a new elected or appointed Fortress Coroner position? Could the gods give us a sign?
I'm really not sure how it is going to work out at this point, since it is a difficult problem to leave enough evidence around when crimes may or may not be happening at any time, just in terms of memory/cpu considerations (just look at the existing hf spatter, taken as "transfer evidence", and how that gums up the works -- all of our rumor systems etc. are the same, we'd need more systems, then it would need to be fed into some sort of analysis etc etc). So we'll probably end up winging it with our adv mode criminal stuff, and then see how that goes back to impact fortress mode. We do have a lot of data sitting around already, and people do make some of their decisions based on witnessed incidents and rumors already, so maybe we'll glide into something kinda okay where the game can make a credible approximation as to who it thinks would be responsible for some crime or another.
Quote from: Orbotosh
will it eventually be possible for us to modify the generationion code of the creatures that are currently procedurally generated like titans, werewolves, demons, ect?
That was the hope, but it's difficult to find a format for that, especially for the text parts.
Quote from: Japa
Do you plan to ever make the north and south have opposing seasons?
We were hoping to do it with the original release of the two-poled worlds, but there was some just-annoying-enough hurdle or time-consuming rewrite that got in the way. I suspect we'll overcome it the next time we are in the neighborhood.
Quote from: Grus
Are there any plans to make constructed walls/floors engraveable?
It's a popular enough suggestion, but I don't have a particular timeline for it. Handling the situation is in the quite large "simple suggestions" list that I chop away at every so often.
Quote from: KillzEmAllGod
Are there plans to change from workshops over to zones/locations so dwarfs could have their own kitchens or even a small blacksmith shop in a 3x3 room in their home and if thats the case when might this be done?
A workshop rewrite and zone/etc. consolidation has been on the menu for years, but I don't have a timeline for it.
Quote from: Max^TM
Will we be able to build using available materials or only logs? If I have blocks or boulders could I use those instead? Naturally I would expect the hauling time to be slower for boulders vs faster build-time with blocks and so forth.
Just logs. I'll handle new materials as their production is added.
Quote from: Button
I've got a Legends log here in which a goblin bard with a Dwarven name took up an apprenticeship in the dark pits Canyonjackal, then became a Baroness of her original, dwarven civilization. For the next 150 years the log has her alternately taking part in competitions in the fortress Wingshoot, and murdering randos in Canyonjackal. Is this a bug (code treating one histfig like they're in two places at once) or a feature (histfig returning home to participate in festivals)?
Hard to say without looking at it... feels buggish? People can travel for competitions, but it's odd that the Baroness isn't living in the right spot and still does pit murders (which are a local matter).
Quote from: Max^TM
Will being able to change the colors/tile/etc for track indicators end up in the raws? The yellow/green is easy to see but in some areas it makes it hard to see where you're even at, much less where you're trying to track towards.
It'd be preferable if all those things could be customized, but it's a very large list now (including every hard-coded item, etc). I'm not sure how any changes will unfold.
Quote
Quote from: TheFlame52Will dwarven merchants ever haul their wares on the backs of dralthas?Quote from: cochramdWill we ever see caravans and sieges come from the caverns instead of above ground? Will we ever be able to start a fortress in the caverns and have to dig up to the surface, instead of starting on the surface and digging down to the caverns?
It's much more likely to happen when we get to the deep dwarf trade from the edge of the underground layers (probably with the firstish embark scenario release). We're certainly planning to have a cavern start scenario, though it is very hard to say now what will be in the first batch since there are so many options.
Quote from: KillzEmAllGod
Seeing as you spoke about on the podcast about optimisation and said there was alot that could be done code wise. Seeing as all players judge how playable the game is by FPS and some have even have refused to move on to the newer versions because of degraded perfomance, how do you judge when to do optimisation of something?
Some of the creatures act a bit strange such as wolves not wanting to attack a long dwarf and dwarfs canceling jobs because of keas will there be a pack mentality for the wolfs and something to make dwarfs not worry about birds that are high in the sky?
There appears to be a limit of group of creatures on the map and some even get stuck due the climbing (fish refuse to leave, some that arrive in the caverns just sit there on the edge if they're in water) would this also be moved over to init values for each level of the map for the amount of groups that there can be?
I generally go by the saves I receive these days for general optimization, since they are always farther along than I ever get. New features I just test as much as I am able, so there's sometimes a bad period in between when their true lag potential is discovered and my getting around to hearing about it and cleaning it up. Some issues with low FPS in advanced forts are more intractable, where it involves large numbers of items, say, or temperature calculations. Others like locked pet doors or whatever are just waiting for me to remove that feature entirely.
There are group morale calculations already, but it's all sort of rough and broken in various ways.
I don't have a problem with moving more constants to the init file, though there's a logjam of requests like this.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Is there a limit to the number of books one person can write? There seems to be.
Yeah, there's a cap for technical reasons. It could probably afford to be smeared out or softened up, but at the same time, world gen will fall apart if everybody that can write is allowed to churn out historically-tracked books.
Quote from: ZM5
Anyway, will we eventually see in-game effects of pulping besides just the flavor text? By that I mean, if a blunt attack causes a creatures head to "explode into gore", will we see an explosion of eyes, teeth and skull fragments, similarly to what happens when teeth are punched out?
There are already functional effects, and blood I think, but like, a proper splat? I suppose that could happen, but I don't have particular plans.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Will there ever be lasting effects from mangled body parts in adventure mode? As ith every injury, travelling or resting seems to heal up any tissue capable of healing, meaning that a mangled body part is utterly shrugged off unless nerve damage occurred.
Yeah, that'll be changed. Right now, the way things are overall, we aren't in a rush to fix it, but eventually it'll be handled.
Quote from: cochramd
How high/low on your to-do list is the implementation of draft animals and the support necessary for them (feed bags, feeding troughs, etc)?
It isn't in the short-term dev plans, so it's in the amorphous rest-of-stuff with everything else.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Toady do you plan to improve NPC dwarven fortress generation, right now they are very random, and hard to navigate do you plan to make them more navigable in the future?
I am aware that you can use travel mode and < and > to go back up to the surface, but it is very hard to get out of forts if you don't do this.
Easier local navigation of worldgen forts is on the short list of adv-quality-of-life issues that we've been working on. Sometimes the hallway to the staircase is in a really terrible out of the way location, and life would be easier if it were at least incorporated into the main wide halls.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerWill npc adventurers get any site building skills during this cycle? Would be nice to run into a monster hunter's mountain lodge full of Forgotten Beast bone figurines.
Will adventurer sites become inhabited by refugees/wandering kobolds/dance troupes/marsh titans if they're abandoned? Is it possible to abandon an adventurer site or will it always be taken over by some random person after the adventurer is dead?Quote from: ZM5Will civilizations be able to send soldiers to adventurer-created sites to reclaim them, should the adventurer die, or to forcefully take them over should the adventurer still be alive?
We're not going to do any of that this time -- smaller NPC sites are still a concern overall in terms of how many there should be and if I need to take any storage shortcuts.
Your sites are treated like camps right now. I don't know that anything interesting happens with camps, but that'll slowly merge with village halls over time I suspect as the bandit/village-leader roles get closer together.
Quote from: expwnent
How is Scamps doing?
Scamps is enjoying that it is hot enough that I'm not wearing long sleeves today. There is more exposed flesh to tear in ambush.
Quote from: Alfrodo
Will Adventurer Sites have the same limitations as dwarf sites?
In essence, can we build a monastery in the middle of a mountain range or a stationary "boat" over an ocean, where you can't build fortresses?
I don't think it cares, but you'll have to haul your own wood there to actually create a wall or floor. That could be annoying for mountain or beach sites. You'd also have to locally travel to the mountain site each time with new wood if it's isolated in the middle of a range.
Quote from: Button
I've noticed that when you start Fortress mode, the world explodes into war. What are the differences between how wars start in worldgen and during fortress mode? What would you say is the intended median wars per civ per year in each mode?
There are too many differences to easily list, really. There is so much more information after world generation, especially with locations/armies. The war counts are interesting though. Is there a corresponding large amount of peace declarations? The whole rhythm just seems different, and broken. I'll have to look into it.
Quote from: Illgeo
Will retired adventurer sites be susceptible to insurrections? Current ones?
They don't have larger cultural-identity-linked populations, so it wouldn't happen.
Quote from: KillzEmAllGod
How would you go about adding in a skill cap for dwarfs much like theres a a cap on their attributes?
When might dwarfs be able to be put into a vegetative state?
Seeing as the next update is pretty mostly the artifact one, in Fortress Starting Scenarios For "Possible expansion of religious and family concepts to provide sufficient scenarios" does that mean that some culture's and religions will be discriminatory?
Will Fortress Starting Scenarios change the way requirements, demands and mandates are done so they extend to the point where nobles can have their own laws even jus primae noctis?
I haven't really thought about how high-level skills are going to evolve. It seems like the new knowledge system is going to get shot all through that stuff, and I'm not sure how the simple numeric skills will react or even survive it.
I don't get the second question.
We just need more grist for the mill to get even basic "remote temple" or "clan mining operation" scenarios in place properly. I don't think discrimination is necessarily implicit in expanding the framework, depending on what you mean, though I'm not sure which way it'll go.
Yeah, or whether there are even nobles at all, or which ones, or whatever. We want to blow it all up and make it better.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I was wondering if he was really just going to continue fixing up merchant bugs or if he was now ready to replace them altogether, something he said he put off doing this time because it would take so long due to very old code).
That masterwork bug is a new introduction, and I fixed some of the unretire problems with others left over (partially dependent on save version). The economy stuff necessary for a good rewrite is far enough away that I expect there will be more bug fixes in the shorter term for this stuff.
Post by: ZM5 on March 31, 2016, 04:56:27 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 31, 2016, 05:02:09 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 31, 2016, 05:04:05 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 31, 2016, 05:37:07 pm
snip
Thanks for the answers as usual toady!
So I suppose it is a bug, sadly I don't have the world anymore to report it on the bug tracker
sigh
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 31, 2016, 05:44:26 pm
Post by: Witty on March 31, 2016, 05:46:06 pm
Post by: Button on March 31, 2016, 05:54:24 pm
Quote from: ButtonI've noticed that when you start Fortress mode, the world explodes into war. What are the differences between how wars start in worldgen and during fortress mode? What would you say is the intended median wars per civ per year in each mode?
There are too many differences to easily list, really. There is so much more information after world generation, especially with locations/armies. The war counts are interesting though. Is there a corresponding large amount of peace declarations? The whole rhythm just seems different, and broken. I'll have to look into it.
0 peace declarations after fortress-start, though it's only been 5 years. I'm still running the same world (retired a copy for legends), so if there keeps being no peace I'm sure it'll show up on the bug tracker eventually.
I should mention that this is a world painter map with high savagery everywhere except the center, so that non-elven civs can still spawn. Everyone being within attacking range of everyone else may be partly responsible for the crazy number of wars.
What kinds of questions do you prefer receiving in the FotF thread?
I feel like there are a few big categories:
- When will (known bug or existing feature) be fixed/changed?
- Is (behavior) intended?
- What are your plans for (new feature)?
- Please elaborate on (thing you've said you're working on right now).
I ask because I do a lot of type 2, and if you'd rather "is this a bug or a feature?" issues be brought up on the bug tracker instead of here I can do that.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 31, 2016, 06:11:34 pm
I look forward to colonising the remnants of giant cosmic eggs.
I was reading an interview and a pic from the myth generator had a giant turtle involved in the myth...made me think of discworld...this will be awesome.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on March 31, 2016, 07:17:30 pm
Didn't take long for someone to just view legends and figure that out and tell everyone else about it.
When might ceremonies, celebration and competitions make it into fort mode and might we be able to specify the details of it much like artwork?
Mainly just want something else to do in fort mode that's a bit of roleplay.
Boats and multitile monsters seem to be the biggest challenge to implement yet z levels don't feel like they're one step down movement wise because of the change in stone layers, what might be the area of a square and the hight of a z level?
Well that might be a bit confusing, mainly just want to know how big monsters and boats might be and thats if they they span z levels.
Adventure mode comes closer to fort mode in terms of ability though will their time scales be brought closer and what might that mean for fort mode with the speed of jobs etc?
The map areas are 46x46 (at least I remember them being about that), would it be possible for the caverns to be inactive till they're breached or if it's not able to be done what would be the constraints?
How's the 64 bit coming if that has been worked on as of yet and how would you describe of what needs to be done in moving DF from 32 bit to 64 bit?
I really can't help myself from asking questions
Post by: Chaoseed on March 31, 2016, 09:10:27 pm
many myth questions which I attempt to address with a rambling reply
Are you guys hyped? I'm totally hyped.
Post by: Max™ on March 31, 2016, 09:35:49 pm
So, we'll be able to clamber up a mountain and make a site in the literal middle of nowhere, awesome, they're roughly the same as camps so we have an idea of the behavior there, can't travel through them as expected.
You mentioned "up to 3x3" so I assume we can choose the size of our sites on creation. Will it take into account things like the agility/innate abilities of our adventurers during the construction process? Oftentimes when using advfort to build I made use of my ability to just scale walls and jump gaps or even fly with certain races, or is that mostly abstracted during the composition/travel/rest screen cutaway?
Post by: cochramd on March 31, 2016, 09:46:02 pm
Post by: Max™ on March 31, 2016, 10:01:50 pm
Post by: cochramd on March 31, 2016, 10:03:50 pm
Post by: Max™ on March 31, 2016, 10:06:27 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2016, 10:35:21 pm
Other than engravings and decorations, where are we, the players, going to see the output of the mythology generator? And by "see", I mean "both notice and recognize". Will we see anything like lakes that were created from the footprints of gods, and will we recognize them as such?Magic seems like the most obvious one. Then there's landmasses made from giant shattered eggshells (apparently). Artifacts too.
Post by: DG on March 31, 2016, 11:57:53 pm
Post by: Putnam on April 01, 2016, 12:21:33 am
Other than engravings and decorations, where are we, the players, going to see the output of the mythology generator? And by "see", I mean "both notice and recognize". Will we see anything like lakes that were created from the footprints of gods, and will we recognize them as such?
he... he said that in the reply he just made
The myths it creates can lead to varied game elements, especially since you can just turn them off and on with parameters. We won't be able to get everything in all at once, but we should have a healthy first pass. This could change the end-game in player forts significantly, for instance, or make a certain form of magic occur everywhere, opening up new workshop/job chains etc., whereas other magic would resist industrialization/familiarity. There are various frequency/bloodline/requirement variables that come up, so individuals of a given race won't all be the same. We're hoping to add new landforms in the first release (giant region-sized cosmic egg shell fragments, and so forth), and eventually get to entire planes that you can visit in either mode (the difficulties there are the same as the difficulties with getting a separate off-site battle map up in fort mode, pretty much, and we'll probably handle them at once, in the distant future). Important artifacts will come up in the first pass -- the generator has stuff like looms that guide all of fate and so forth, and I'm not really sure how your interactions with those will go.
We're not quite sure how the exposition is going to work -- there's worldgen itself, where we're hoping to make the process highlight the important world elements and mythical events instead of just giving you the current technical rundown. Legends mode should have lots of information, and we're hoping it comes up in conversation/written works/art etc a bit as possible, as it does with historical events. Certain elements might occur in chargen and the embark screen as well, if they apply. It still remains to be seen just how confusing it all is and where we'll need to focus. If you set your world's fantasy rating to the maximum, there won't even be dwarves, just some playable race with random traits and a random name, but at least that exposition problem comes from opting-in through the maxed-out parameter, so it's not crucial to get it right immediately.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 01, 2016, 12:45:24 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 01, 2016, 02:55:14 am
'Maximum Fantasy' setting will offer us a variety of procedurally generated races. Does that mean the Mythgen release will open up "Fortress Mode" to other types of site management modes (cities, pits, forest retreats, etc)? Or will the system arrange to always have an underground dwelling fortress building civ available? Or not and just let you play adventurer instead?
Post by: KillerClowns on April 01, 2016, 11:45:15 am
I'm excited to see what else arises in the final version, what impact it will have on my games, and what creative ways the community will find to exploit the arcana of whatever universes they find themselves in.
Post by: Knight Otu on April 01, 2016, 11:51:45 am
Post by: cochramd on April 01, 2016, 12:28:33 pm
I smell a case of TLDR-itis at work on Coch's part. :VYes, last night I was stricken by a bad case of TLDRitis. Chalk it up to me not being terribly interested in most other people's questions.
So no point in asking how deep one might be able to start, huh?QuoteQuote from: TheFlame52Will dwarven merchants ever haul their wares on the backs of dralthas?Quote from: cochramdWill we ever see caravans and sieges come from the caverns instead of above ground? Will we ever be able to start a fortress in the caverns and have to dig up to the surface, instead of starting on the surface and digging down to the caverns?
It's much more likely to happen when we get to the deep dwarf trade from the edge of the underground layers (probably with the firstish embark scenario release). We're certainly planning to have a cavern start scenario, though it is very hard to say now what will be in the first batch since there are so many options.
Quote
Well, that's a tad disappointing to hear. I know you've got a whole lot of cool features in progress that are more fun to work on, but draft animals and the support necessary for them strikes me as a feature that would bring a lot of gameplay changes for relatively little coding work on your part. Everything changes when you increase how quickly a large number of things can be hauled and decrease the dwarfpower needed to do so. The support for draft animals would make caring for herds of grazers much easier in general and provide a use for them beyond the meat industry.Quote from: cochramdHow high/low on your to-do list is the implementation of draft animals and the support necessary for them (feed bags, feeding troughs, etc)?
It isn't in the short-term dev plans, so it's in the amorphous rest-of-stuff with everything else.
On the other hand, this mythology generator of yours looks like it'll rock my socks off, so who am I to question the plans of The Great Toady One?
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 01, 2016, 12:29:28 pm
Reading one of the sample myths from the myth generator (http://ec0c5a7f741a6f3bff65-dd07187202f57fa404a8f047da2bcff5.r85.cf1.rackcdn.com/images/91GTGgDJqj49.878x0.Z-Z96KYq.jpg) in the PC Gamer interview, I'm really impressed by how much sense it makes, how internally consistent the details are. I can summarize the visible myth fragment in natural language quite easily: Titatheus is the creator of the world, but a fairly malevolent demiurge in the Gnostic tradition. They created the universe as we know it by disturbing the perfect fire of the Timeless Judgment with their Mischevious Test. Dwarves, in turn, are fallible but hopeful creatures. They stand between the perfection of the Timeless Judgment, from which the Zolidon Fay, enigmatic grandchild of Titatheus, took essence, and the Phupithion Stream, the Stygian river in which they were created. They chose to align themselves with the Timeless Judgment, rebelling against their creator. And indeed, dwarves who act improperly have their souls merged into the Mischevious Test that Titatheus created, while they draw their magic from the Timeless Judgment of their essence.
I'm excited to see what else arises in the final version, what impact it will have on my games, and what creative ways the community will find to exploit the arcana of whatever universes they find themselves in.
Its definitely a good reason to keep playing in a single world .
Post by: Dirst on April 01, 2016, 01:03:09 pm
Its definitely a good reason to keep playing in a single world .Now I'm going to feel even more guilty tossing out multiple worlds in the process of troubleshooting a mod...
Post by: ZM5 on April 01, 2016, 01:04:58 pm
Reading one of the sample myths from the myth generator (http://ec0c5a7f741a6f3bff65-dd07187202f57fa404a8f047da2bcff5.r85.cf1.rackcdn.com/images/91GTGgDJqj49.878x0.Z-Z96KYq.jpg) in the PC Gamer interview, I'm really impressed by how much sense it makes, how internally consistent the details are. I can summarize the visible myth fragment in natural language quite easily: Titatheus is the creator of the world, but a fairly malevolent demiurge in the Gnostic tradition. They created the universe as we know it by disturbing the perfect fire of the Timeless Judgment with their Mischevious Test. Dwarves, in turn, are fallible but hopeful creatures. They stand between the perfection of the Timeless Judgment, from which the Zolidon Fay, enigmatic grandchild of Titatheus, took essence, and the Phupithion Stream, the Stygian river in which they were created. They chose to align themselves with the Timeless Judgment, rebelling against their creator. And indeed, dwarves who act improperly have their souls merged into the Mischevious Test that Titatheus created, while they draw their magic from the Timeless Judgment of their essence.I'm sorta curious as to what explanations there would be for the birth of every modded race I have in my worlds.
I'm excited to see what else arises in the final version, what impact it will have on my games, and what creative ways the community will find to exploit the arcana of whatever universes they find themselves in.
Also I noticed, the number 2 is selected on the image itself, so is it just one page of the entire mythology? Are the other pages about demons and various megabeasts and such?
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 01, 2016, 01:05:23 pm
Its definitely a good reason to keep playing in a single world .Now I'm going to feel even more guilty tossing out multiple worlds in the process of troubleshooting a mod...
Madness. It only makes the offering to Armok's evil twin, the god of boredom, even sweeter.
Post by: Dirst on April 01, 2016, 01:11:29 pm
"The end is nigh! For I have gazed upon the error log, and is a long sad tale indeed. Even now, the modder's hand moves toward our destruction! Repent while you can!"Its definitely a good reason to keep playing in a single world .Now I'm going to feel even more guilty tossing out multiple worlds in the process of troubleshooting a mod...
Madness. It only makes the offering to Armok's evil twin, the god of boredom, even sweeter.
Post by: pikachu17 on April 01, 2016, 01:23:55 pm
will modders be able to choose what mythology their worlds have? I'd hate to make a pokemon mod, only to find out in a world it has more vanilla-ish mythology
Post by: Dirst on April 01, 2016, 01:28:39 pm
I wouldn't expect a huge amount of control at first (other than the level-of-fantasy slider), but I would very much appreciate being able to assure there is at least one "forging of the world" or "forging life" myth in my mod, and other mods would benefit from moddable myths.
will modders be able to choose what mythology their worlds have? I'd hate to make a pokemon mod, only to find out in a world it has more vanilla-ish mythology
Almost everything is destined for the raws, please be patient. (As Dirst hits F5 repeatedly waiting for the next version...)
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 01, 2016, 01:32:21 pm
will modders be able to choose what mythology their worlds have? I'd hate to make a pokemon mod, only to find out in a world it has more vanilla-ish mythology
I doubt it'll be any more controllable than it is now, at least not until the foundations are laid. For example, right now if I wanted to make a fantasy mod with my desired trappings, all those generated beasts (especially fucking boogeymen) are just getting in the way.
I assume these will be tweakable to a useful degree in advanced world generation, the same way most of the generated shenanigans are now, but basic worldgen will likely only have a vague "level of weirdness" slider. At least, as far as I've gathered from Toady's responses. I might be having the same TLDR-itis problem though, and might've missed an important detail as to how much control the basic world creation will give you.
Post by: KillerClowns on April 01, 2016, 01:41:16 pm
Post by: tahu16 on April 01, 2016, 01:41:58 pm
I didn't want to take your time with this but I can't hold it any longer. As I keep checking the homepage everyday, it becomes more and more disturbing but I can't explain it why... maybe its smile?... At first I didn't mind it but now I just can't ignore it. It's watching me with it's shiny red eye! Like it is scanning my soul... I don't know what is it but I MUST know it: what is that yellow thingy with the pointing finger on the old donations menu?
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 01, 2016, 01:49:55 pm
Post by: pikachu17 on April 01, 2016, 01:54:13 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 01, 2016, 01:56:48 pm
it looks like a combination of a chicken and a t-rex
The dreaded Gallus Rex. Beware its deliciousness!
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 01, 2016, 02:08:41 pm
This, as a whole, is reminiscent of Lord of the Rings, and many other similar mythic stories, including the Narnia series, where the Golden Age fades, the myth dies, and the magic goes away into a more mundane world.
I also notice this in play as an adventurer, where one event I remember well was traveling from hamlet to hamlet, finding completely same-y individuals from the population pool. Even killing them would make no difference, they'd just come back thanks to a bug. Then, I came across a vampire who had set himself up as mayor. He was obvious because he flashed and had legendary skills and hundreds of items and thousands of stories. I could have killed him, but I realized that this vampire was literally the one thing of note in this chunk of the world, and if I killed him, I'd be destroying one of the only halfway interesting things around, like blowing up a landmark. It made me sad to think of it, so I left the vampire be.
With the coming mythic changes, will there be ways in which myths can "decay"? That is, portals to different dimensions shut down forever, schools of magic forever lost, or once mythic and legendary things turning mundane when their "magic energy source" is cut off. (Such as a city on a floating island turning into a mere plateau, or the edge of a discworld turning into merely a chain of really stormy areas of sea on a globe with undiscovered continents.)
For that matter, you mentioned concepts like myths from different creatures/cultures that oppose, and some of which may or may not be true. If there are conflicting myths, will it be possible for us as players to affect whether they are true or not? (To dip into the more Elder Scrolls style mythic, where reality is partly subjective, belief or disbelief can grant or strip away divinity.) If I lead a crusade to wipe out believers of a contradictory myth, can I make that myth untrue, and take away its magical power? Can we, in play, make new myths, or shape existing ones in other ways?
Post by: Putnam on April 01, 2016, 03:11:18 pm
Hello!
I didn't want to take your time with this but I can't hold it any longer. As I keep checking the homepage everyday, it becomes more and more disturbing but I can't explain it why... maybe its smile?... At first I didn't mind it but now I just can't ignore it. It's watching me with it's shiny red eye! Like it is scanning my soul... I don't know what is it but I MUST know it: what is that yellow thingy with the pointing finger on the old donations menu?
Cautionsaurus, of course.
(here's the origin (https://twitter.com/bay12games/status/378103364761841664))
Post by: GoblinCookie on April 01, 2016, 03:42:10 pm
When looking over the game thus far, the nature of eras has led me to conclude that part of what the game implies, deliberately or not, is a notion of, for lack of better terminology, entropic decay. The world starts at a Mythic Age, and as the creatures of magic die off, it becomes a Legendary, then Heroic Age. If all the magic creatures, including dwarves, start dying off, it becomes a Twilight, Fairy Tale, or "Civilized" (fully mundane) Age.
This, as a whole, is reminiscent of Lord of the Rings, and many other similar mythic stories, including the Narnia series, where the Golden Age fades, the myth dies, and the magic goes away into a more mundane world.
It is also quite possible for things to go 'backwards' and in fact they tend to do so many times. Hence there is no really any clear progression implied by the game really at all, especially nowadays that megabeasts can reproduce.
Post by: Knight Otu on April 01, 2016, 04:10:57 pm
From the few GDC screenshots floating out there on twitter, the page number is most likely a control for the sidebar that lists the elements of the myths, while the current topic gets a scrollbar. Page 1 would list, among others, the various Primordial elements of those myths. From what I gather, in the prototype program, the dwarven/human/etc topic pages would be accessed by clicking on that element. It would make sense if the other elements have similar pages, though, even if we haven't seen any of them.Reading one of the sample myths from the myth generator (http://ec0c5a7f741a6f3bff65-dd07187202f57fa404a8f047da2bcff5.r85.cf1.rackcdn.com/images/91GTGgDJqj49.878x0.Z-Z96KYq.jpg) in the PC Gamer interview, I'm really impressed by how much sense it makes, how internally consistent the details are. [snip]I'm sorta curious as to what explanations there would be for the birth of every modded race I have in my worlds.
Also I noticed, the number 2 is selected on the image itself, so is it just one page of the entire mythology? Are the other pages about demons and various megabeasts and such?
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 01, 2016, 04:23:09 pm
It is also quite possible for things to go 'backwards' and in fact they tend to do so many times. Hence there is no really any clear progression implied by the game really at all, especially nowadays that megabeasts can reproduce.
It is possible for declining populations to recover, yes, but it starts at the most magical end of the spectrum, and can only "tread water" or decline from there, whereas the other ages exist only because of decline. Going "backwards" means partially recovering from a decline, which requires decline in the first place.
There's a saying among the environmentalist crowd: "Our victories are temporary, but our losses are permanent." A tiny number of reproducing dragons can only stave off extinction, but are always threatened. Once a species goes extinct, it is extinct forever. Unlike real life, there isn't even adaptation and divergence of species to eventually have vacated niches refilled by newcomers. A species extinct decrements the diversity the planet can ever have again. At the same time, the game's residents gleefully entice you to think of all the megabeasts as a "to kill" list.
By contrast, a game like Civilization starts you out in the "Stone Age" end of the tech ages, and has a giant set of branches of different technological eras it expects and even demands you to go through, even if the game might end before you finish the tree. It expects a buildup, and progression is clear along the linear path of ages. By contrast, DF has a largely linear progression of entropic decay, even if it's possible for the needle to wobble on the boundary between one age and another.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 01, 2016, 07:25:00 pm
Post by: Max™ on April 01, 2016, 07:53:02 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 01, 2016, 10:13:56 pm
I thought that would be like a slider between a mostly flat map with few peaks to a rippled corrugated mess of peaks and valleys for elevation, and a slider between mostly mundane with few exceptions to a writhing coruscating mass of beasts and warlocks for fantasy.
I suspect it will just be a difference between only having what's in the raws, and what's going to be generated by the new myth system. The game can't figure out what's "mundane" except by what it's told in the raws, and there's no real binding to physical reality when people mod things.
That is, it might be like settings for how many totally procedurally-constructed titans exist in the worldgen settings, (as opposed to how you can always get raw-generated dragons,) a setting for how many procedural things are shoved into the game.
Toady wrote that you might generate a world without even being guaranteed dwarves or humans or anything, and all the critters are rando-land. While such a thing might be interesting for those seeking a novel experience, it would also make it very difficult for newer players, especially, to make heads or tails of anything, since the rules of the game are changing every time you play.
To address Egan_BW's question, I don't speak for Toady, or have direct quotes to back this up, but every time something procedural like night creatures have been added, there was a worldgen option to turn them off, if only because they would wreck the themes of mods if you had night hags in a Fallout mod. The procedural content is currently hard-coded, rather than raw-guided, so there's no other option to prevent theme mod havoc.
Post by: NJW2000 on April 02, 2016, 04:13:14 am
Edited, Thanks\/
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 02, 2016, 04:54:54 am
I probably haven't looked hard enough butThis thread less than 24 hours ago. Link from top of Toady's devblog. It's the first paragraph on mythgen.
Didn't you mention a "fantasy rating" or slider for worldgen, determining how "true" the myths would be? As well as the possibility to generate a world without dwarves but entirely different procedural races instead? Will these two options be controlled by the same slider/value/etc, or different ones?
Pretty sure someone'll be able to answer this, but I'm not entirely sure.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 02, 2016, 01:37:41 pm
Toady wrote that you might generate a world without even being guaranteed dwarves or humans or anything, and all the critters are rando-land. While such a thing might be interesting for those seeking a novel experience, it would also make it very difficult for newer players, especially, to make heads or tails of anything, since the rules of the game are changing every time you play.
Imagine if the bugfuck-insanely-named musical instruments, only they can kill you. This is the only major downside I see, wherein the name gives no reliable clue as to what you're looking at.
How will the myth generation affect the naming methods of these new generated features? Will they at least have names that give a vague hint as to what to expect (like how demons and night trolls are labeled), or will it use random language-based monikers? Because I can see that being an infinitely worse idea than that feature's current use with musical instruments. I don't mind not having any clue what an instrument is just from the name, because an instrument can't eat my face. -_-
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 02, 2016, 03:05:21 pm
Imagine if the bugfuck-insanely-named musical instruments, only they can kill you. This is the only major downside I see, wherein the name gives no reliable clue as to what you're looking at.
Yes, this is, generally, the downside of procedurally-generated items. You need far more interface hints as to what something is and what it is used for.
Take the plants that were, before the recent real plants were introduced, for example; Everyone knows what an oak tree is or what a cabbage is without the game describing it for you. We only could figure out a "feather tree" was something that literally had feathers (and, of all things, eggs as fruit,) when Toady put it in the raws, or that a quarry bush was a literal bush with stone-gray plant leaves and nuts that look like rocks when they were put in the raws.
The Titans/Forgotten Beasts and were-whatevers are described in enough detail to generally get a sense of what it's supposed to be, however, and I presume that will be the model for how other creatures will have procedural descriptions.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 02, 2016, 03:31:12 pm
Take the plants that were, before the recent real plants were introduced, for example; Everyone knows what an oak tree is or what a cabbage is without the game describing it for you. We only could figure out a "feather tree" was something that literally had feathers (and, of all things, eggs as fruit,) when Toady put it in the raws, or that a quarry bush was a literal bush with stone-gray plant leaves and nuts that look like rocks when they were put in the raws.
That's not even as extreme an example as what I was talking about. If anything, I'm fine with feather trees, quarry bushes, shadow monsters, hellish brutes etc. They may be cryptic, but they're evocative.
I'm talking about os and coñu and other things where the name is utterly meaningless unless you have a solid memory of the in-game languages.
If the added elements are named the same way existing generated beasts are, it would be acceptable. You could at least parse the name and at least have a vague idea of what to expect. The problem is if they're named the same way the instruments are, which would be moronic. ;w;
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 02, 2016, 03:36:35 pm
If the added elements are named the same way existing generated beasts are, it would be acceptable. You could at least parse the name and at least have a vague idea of what to expect. The problem is if they're named the same way the instruments are, which would be moronic. ;w;
Well, you can look at descriptions of titans, and they'll say something like "A three-eyed quadruped with oval copper scales. Beware it's poisonous bite!" The description helps a lot more than the name.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 02, 2016, 03:39:51 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 02, 2016, 04:33:59 pm
Toady wrote that you might generate a world without even being guaranteed dwarves or humans or anything, and all the critters are rando-land. While such a thing might be interesting for those seeking a novel experience, it would also make it very difficult for newer players, especially, to make heads or tails of anything, since the rules of the game are changing every time you play.
Imagine if the bugfuck-insanely-named musical instruments, only they can kill you. This is the only major downside I see, wherein the name gives no reliable clue as to what you're looking at.
How will the myth generation affect the naming methods of these new generated features? Will they at least have names that give a vague hint as to what to expect (like how demons and night trolls are labeled), or will it use random language-based monikers? Because I can see that being an infinitely worse idea than that feature's current use with musical instruments. I don't mind not having any clue what an instrument is just from the name, because an instrument can't eat my face. -_-
Read some screenshots (like from the recent interview) the myths actually make sense when you read them (as do the artifacts and such) so I expect it will have a decent naming scheme.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 02, 2016, 04:56:41 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on April 02, 2016, 05:08:16 pm
Read some screenshots (like from the recent interview) the myths actually make sense when you read them (as do the artifacts and such) so I expect it will have a decent naming scheme.Well, there is that one type of element that wasn't quite clear from the earlier screenshots that I theorized could be pantheons. They do seem to share the color of elements called "Gods"/"Divinity", so that may mean they are...
Are elements like The Badatite from the interview pantheons as it seems from sharing a color with elements like the Dupicia Divinity?
Primordial/Cosmic seems pretty clear - an element with no direct parentage. Does Celestial have a similar meaning, and are there other tags like them?
It seems that the myths generally involve at most two entities to act as "direct parents." Are there any acts of creation involving three or more entities?
Does the prototype generator already read the game raws? If so, how does it know to group the animal people away from the animals?
(Questions mostly rendered moot by the talk being free content.)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 02, 2016, 05:38:57 pm
I had a suggestion topic about an overview mode some years back. Something like that could also help.
The silliness of modesty past the point of bringing up a subject aside, you might as well link something to make it easier for people to actually find what you are talking about. :P
Allow me to shamelessly plug your thread for you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=82778.msg2203520#msg2203520).
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 02, 2016, 09:53:00 pm
Post by: Dirst on April 02, 2016, 10:03:21 pm
So, the system for playing as a bard in this game is amazing, you can write music play instruments get people all happy, dance, do poems, play music, pretty much whatever you want however, people don't get bored when you play the same song five thousand times, and they don't throw money at you when you play really well, and if you are bad, they don't try to, for example throw you out of the tavern, do you plan to make it so people can become bored if you play the same song five thousand times (especially if the song is described as not even being very good in general) and get upset if you play really bad (or really crappy songs), or will people always be perpetually entertained by the same song (even if its a "badly written" song) and not throw you out of taverns for playing badly..?Bye bye Miss American Pie... Drove my Chevy to levee but the levee was dry...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 02, 2016, 10:08:49 pm
So, the system for playing as a bard in this game is amazing, you can write music play instruments get people all happy, dance, do poems, play music, pretty much whatever you want however, people don't get bored when you play the same song five thousand times, and they don't throw money at you when you play really well, and if you are bad, they don't try to, for example throw you out of the tavern, do you plan to make it so people can become bored if you play the same song five thousand times (especially if the song is described as not even being very good in general) and get upset if you play really bad (or really crappy songs), or will people always be perpetually entertained by the same song and not throw you out of taverns for playing badly..?
Not an answer to this, but have you, by chance, played Elona?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 02, 2016, 11:15:01 pm
So, the system for playing as a bard in this game is amazing, you can write music play instruments get people all happy, dance, do poems, play music, pretty much whatever you want however, people don't get bored when you play the same song five thousand times, and they don't throw money at you when you play really well, and if you are bad, they don't try to, for example throw you out of the tavern, do you plan to make it so people can become bored if you play the same song five thousand times (especially if the song is described as not even being very good in general) and get upset if you play really bad (or really crappy songs), or will people always be perpetually entertained by the same song and not throw you out of taverns for playing badly..?
Not an answer to this, but have you, by chance, played Elona?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Actually never heard of it until now, thanks for that, ill try it out!
Post by: Knight Otu on April 03, 2016, 04:12:21 am
Apart from my original suggestion being mostly targeted at a different problem (visibility rather than gray goo), I figured calling it an overview mode at least would give a good idea of how it would look like.I had a suggestion topic about an overview mode some years back. Something like that could also help.
The silliness of modesty past the point of bringing up a subject aside, you might as well link something to make it easier for people to actually find what you are talking about. :P
Allow me to shamelessly plug your thread for you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=82778.msg2203520#msg2203520).
Post by: Hartsteen on April 03, 2016, 06:58:17 am
Is there a plan to implement some more conditions regarding statics, especially of buildings? Will siege engines be able to topple or destroy walls in the future?
Will tools be necessary to create things? Will there be more tools like nails & hammer for wooden walls, chisels for masonry, etc.?
When will more things break?
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 03, 2016, 09:50:29 am
Hi everybody, making my first comments here and hoping not to ask stupid questions. :)Check out the Dev page, working siege engines among other things (like digging) are planned . You could also check out the old wreck/bloat Dev page for more info (on phone right now so cannot link).
Is there a plan to implement some more conditions regarding statics, especially of buildings? Will siege engines be able to topple or destroy walls in the future?
Will tools be necessary to create things? Will there be more tools like nails & hammer for wooden walls, chisels for masonry, etc.?
When will more things break?
Toady said in a df talk, and also in the last fotf reply that making dwarves (and by extension adventurers use tools instead of workshops is planned, in fact adventurers already use tools instead of workshops for things)
Post by: Vuohijumala on April 04, 2016, 02:53:23 pm
Just asking from a modding perspective. It would be cool to have a few more types of sites, for more primitive/advanced civilisations for example. Or have hamlets, but no towns etc.
Post by: TheFlame52 on April 04, 2016, 03:21:03 pm
Post by: ZM5 on April 04, 2016, 03:22:32 pm
I'd guess this would be hard to implement, but will players be able to mod/influence site generation? Will there be more kinds of site-types available in the future, for modding if not for vanilla DF?I was actually as well if there would eventually be more types of sites - kind of difficult right now to properly have primitive, tribal civs since the only options imply some degree of actual civilization (aside from caves but that doesn't really count). Tent "cities" would be nice.
Just asking from a modding perspective. It would be cool to have a few more types of sites, for more primitive/advanced civilisations for example. Or have hamlets, but no towns etc.
Also, I've got two other questions - will it eventually be possible to start civilizations instead of merely being extensions of existing ones? And, I remember something being mentioned about martial arts forms being eventually randomly generated just like poetry, dance and music forms - what exactly will that entail and will players be able to create their own moves? For that matter, will these be mostly for flavor or will they appear as actual options in the wrestling menu and have their own unique effects, i.e neck snaps for particularly brutish races or piledrivers targetting the head and causing unconsciousness easily?
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 04, 2016, 03:31:09 pm
I'd guess this would be hard to implement, but will players be able to mod/influence site generation? Will there be more kinds of site-types available in the future, for modding if not for vanilla DF?I was actually as well if there would eventually be more types of sites - kind of difficult right now to properly have primitive, tribal civs since the only options imply some degree of actual civilization (aside from caves but that doesn't really count). Tent "cities" would be nice.
Just asking from a modding perspective. It would be cool to have a few more types of sites, for more primitive/advanced civilisations for example. Or have hamlets, but no towns etc.
Also, I've got two other questions - will it eventually be possible to start civilizations instead of merely being extensions of existing ones? And, I remember something being mentioned about martial arts forms being eventually randomly generated just like poetry, dance and music forms - what exactly will that entail and will players be able to create their own moves? For that matter, will these be mostly for flavor or will they appear as actual options in the wrestling menu and have their own unique effects, i.e neck snaps for particularly brutish races or piledrivers targetting the head and causing unconsciousness easily?
I am sure they will be usable, toady mentioned it in a df talk
Post by: Knight Otu on April 04, 2016, 03:53:51 pm
I'd guess this would be hard to implement, but will players be able to mod/influence site generation? Will there be more kinds of site-types available in the future, for modding if not for vanilla DF?
Just asking from a modding perspective. It would be cool to have a few more types of sites, for more primitive/advanced civilisations for example. Or have hamlets, but no towns etc.
It's something that may eventually happen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=100851.msg3670523;topicseen#msg3670523). Things moving out into the raws is generally a question of having a format and a broad enough idea of what is needed.
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: darklord92Will we ever be able to edit the types of buildings that will appear in towns as well as the "dungeons" inside of it, possibly having it external such as a site_dwarf file. or having "plans" built into the game like now but with the buildings customisable in the entity files, such as the options to build towers or not, or to have sewers or not at a certain city value or populationThings tend to move out to the raws as I feel more comfortable with them. Once I'm done with all of the sites and have more an idea of what I'm dealing with and what I'll be dealing with, we'll probably see more things in there.
...And, I remember something being mentioned about martial arts forms being eventually randomly generated just like poetry, dance and music forms - what exactly will that entail and will players be able to create their own moves? For that matter, will these be mostly for flavor or will they appear as actual options in the wrestling menu and have their own unique effects, i.e neck snaps for particularly brutish races or piledrivers targetting the head and causing unconsciousness easily?
From the Development page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), that should answer most of that question I believe:
Quote
Combat flow
...
Notion of stance/guard, with varying bonuses/penalties
Ability to jump up on and ride opponents if they are large enough (can happen to you too of course)
Not being able to hit a giant in the head, hitting a dragon in the head as a reaction when it attempts to bite
Notion of overall wrestling position (who is on top of or controlling whom, etc.)
Combat styles
Combat styles involving weapons or natural attacks with associated stances and moves
Ability to learn moves, etc. from others with whom you have a high enough reputation
Certain moves may only be available as specific counters, while others might just be regular attacks
Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on April 04, 2016, 06:05:45 pm
Might get bandits already but they only appear to belong to goblins.
Theres groups of bards so when might there be groups of scholars, mercenaries and adventures?
These groups or visitors that are residents living in our fort, being able to go offsite and coming back latter like scholars going elsewhere to meet others is this something to be done under Fortress Starting Scenarios when that deals with this type of stuff more indepth?
With the new myth system will this allow dragons and other megabeasts to be semi random?
When might more weather be added to regions like magical mist and fog that covers the whole region most of the time?
So why did being blind or having a lack of eyes only effect vision range and not being truly blind, though there appears to be sound and other senses?
When was the last time you had a good play through of fort mode if you can remember?
Post by: ZM5 on April 04, 2016, 06:41:02 pm
Not seen any monster hunters are they bugged or just so rare that they hardly exist?They do actually exist from what I can tell - it's just, most of them die in worldgen, and living ones are rare - either completely unharmed, or with missing body parts - I've seen people with missing eyes or limbs (once with a missing arm and leg), who according to legends had fought with beasts before, so they definitely exist.
Post by: Vattic on April 04, 2016, 06:44:49 pm
I thought that would be like a slider between a mostly flat map with few peaks to a rippled corrugated mess of peaks and valleys for elevation, and a slider between mostly mundane with few exceptions to a writhing coruscating mass of beasts and warlocks for fantasy.
I suspect it will just be a difference between only having what's in the raws, and what's going to be generated by the new myth system. The game can't figure out what's "mundane" except by what it's told in the raws, and there's no real binding to physical reality when people mod things.
This seems most likely, but Toady has spoken of being able to turn off magic entirely eventually.
Quote from: Toady One
Well, we've talked a lot about magic in the previous episodes. With dwarves, our sort of baseline idea is all artifact based, and that beyond that it would kind of be slider based, you could go to the no-magic world, or the very minimal magic world, or you could start getting into this kind of factory-based magic that we'd prefer to stay away from for the default setting. I mean it's like D&D magic often seems kind of factory based.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 04, 2016, 07:46:01 pm
This seems most likely, but Toady has spoken of being able to turn off magic entirely eventually.Quote from: Toady OneWell, we've talked a lot about magic in the previous episodes. With dwarves, our sort of baseline idea is all artifact based, and that beyond that it would kind of be slider based, you could go to the no-magic world, or the very minimal magic world, or you could start getting into this kind of factory-based magic that we'd prefer to stay away from for the default setting. I mean it's like D&D magic often seems kind of factory based.
That depends on how the game categorizes what gets called "magic", however. Again, if a modder makes a raw-defined reaction to make something out of nothing, the game isn't likely to call a violation of Conservation of Matter. A "no magic world" might just mean things like secrets, caverns, and syndromes that cause were-curses are turned off, and maybe disable every creature that doesn't have [MUNDANE] in its raws. It all depends upon being able to flag and disable what is the "magic" in the game in some reasonable way, and of course, mods can put all bets off.
Toady in that quote is specifically talking about how players can harness magic, and how he would prefer to avoid, say, allowing players to mass-produce magic fire swords the way that you can mass-produce masterwork steel and candy swords to the point they become mundane, predictable exercises in equipping your troops with the objectively best gear. So far, his only real way of doing that has been to just keep magic from being directly in Fortress Mode player hands. Magic thus far, however, as evidenced by necromancers and turning into an undead in Adventurer Mode, really is just as routine as he'd hoped to avoid. If you are a necromancer, it's just a matter of finding good corpses to raise, and you can do so for free. For that matter, Loud Whisper's Silentthunders (spoilers) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146908.0), where necromancers are imprisoned and forced to make undead armies as weapons in the service of the dwarves just proves you can still use that magic indirectly with some clever engineering.
The problem is that he wants there to be, as you put it in that Suggestion Forum thread yesterday, "mystery" associated with magic, but faces severe structural challenges from the very nature of this being a formal, Turing-complete ruleset videogame that make keeping magic a "mystery" a virtual impossibility. For elaboration on reasons why, I'd point to Errant Signal's video on why so many games use violence as their central topic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSBn77_h_6Q).
Post by: Dirst on April 04, 2016, 07:48:56 pm
I'm also curious from where the generated content comes. Is it a shuffled form of the raws?
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 04, 2016, 07:58:14 pm
Post by: LordBaal on April 05, 2016, 07:44:25 am
Post by: decev on April 05, 2016, 08:15:31 am
Post by: ZM5 on April 05, 2016, 08:16:24 am
Will the player be able to read a creation story with 100% fantasy and one with 0% fantasy and be able to tell which is which?You should mark your questions in lime green for future reference.
Post by: Button on April 05, 2016, 08:57:20 am
Will the player be able to read a creation story with 100% fantasy and one with 0% fantasy and be able to tell which is which?
From what I understand the answer is not yet. As of right now, the only difference is whether it's true or not.
If you meant later, when it's more granular, idk.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 05, 2016, 10:38:35 am
Will the player be able to read a creation story with 100% fantasy and one with 0% fantasy and be able to tell which is which?
From what I understand the answer is not yet. As of right now, the only difference is whether it's true or not.
If you meant later, when it's more granular, idk.
Are you sure about that?
Post by: Knight Otu on April 05, 2016, 11:54:44 am
Post by: NJW2000 on April 05, 2016, 12:35:45 pm
Post by: Button on April 05, 2016, 12:46:45 pm
Will the player be able to read a creation story with 100% fantasy and one with 0% fantasy and be able to tell which is which?
From what I understand the answer is not yet. As of right now, the only difference is whether it's true or not.
If you meant later, when it's more granular, idk.
Are you sure about that?
Here's my source:
Quote from: Toady
If you set the "fantasy rating" of the world to zero, it still builds a series of events, but those are then just stories (perhaps at a civilization level, not really decided how they might interweave between civs). If you set the parameters to allow for it, then the story is correct, which creates a kind of shared lore for the world.
As I read it, this means that the same story is generated, but if the fantasy rating is 0 then it's not actually true. However, it's quite possible that I understood that incorrectly.
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 05, 2016, 01:27:07 pm
If animals ever get a rehaul to count individuals on a global scale migrationally etc. etc, would mundane animals that could survive the semi-cold and dark environment (grizzly bears for instance) inhabit sections of the caverns via non-megabeast guarded cave entrances? this may be additionally relevant to 0% fantastical worlds in which mundane flora may have room to breathe and expand onto the landscape and serve as a sanctuary from high aboveground settlement & hunting
In addition to my second question...
Is there any form of contingency plan for goblins/supernatural races when magic/supernatural leaders/power giving artifacts are destroyed? Seeming as goblins have no form of baseline nobility or monarch/leader and exist purely underneath their master
And as such upon the destruction of the one ring bearing the name and power of the great filth demon Mempkohet, forged in a time before time, the great demon lord's soul was cast back to whence it came, and the armies of the goblins freed of the direction of their master trembled as for the spirit of death came for them, reclaiming the immortality, hexes & strength imbued as the great dark tower to the east crumbles and is reclaimed by the earth and the binding power is snapped causing a eighth of all known goblins to die where they stood.
The elves wept, as they knew the age of magic had ended and the dwarves would most certainly celebrate by carving twenty thousand wooden mugs.
Finally...
Are you prepared to get sued by Stephen Spielberg should a Tolkien esque story emerges by coincidence?
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 05, 2016, 01:39:48 pm
I've been cooking up these suggestions in my minor absence from the forums. :D
If animals ever get a rehaul to count individuals on a global scale migrationally etc. etc, would mundane animals that could survive the semi-cold and dark environment (grizzly bears for instance) inhabit sections of the caverns via non-megabeast guarded cave entrances? this may be additionally relevant to 0% fantastical worlds in which mundane flora may have room to breathe and expand onto the landscape and serve as a sanctuary from high aboveground settlement & hunting
In addition to my second question...
Is there any form of contingency plan for goblins/supernatural races when magic/supernatural leaders/power giving artifacts are destroyed? Seeming as goblins have no form of baseline nobility or monarch/leader and exist purely underneath their master
And as such upon the destruction of the one ring bearing the name and power of the great filth demon Mempkohet, forged in a time before time, the great demon lord's soul was cast back to whence it came, and the armies of the goblins freed of the direction of their master trembled as for the spirit of death came for them, reclaiming the immortality, hexes & strength imbued as the great dark tower to the east crumbles and is reclaimed by the earth and the binding power is snapped causing a eighth of all known goblins to die where they stood.
The elves wept, as they knew the age of magic had ended and the dwarves would most certainly celebrate by carving twenty thousand wooden mugs.
Finally...
Are you prepared to get sued by Stephen Spielberg should a Tolkien esque story emerges by coincidence?
I know its a joke, but I doubt he would be sued.
Because I dont think stephen Spielberg would care if a niche game that clearly states everything it generates is random procedurally generated a similar story.
Not to mention he "stole" his stories (with permission) from tolkien directly himself.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 05, 2016, 01:45:57 pm
Are you prepared to get sued by Stephen Spielberg should a Tolkien esque story emerges by coincidence?
That didn't work when Marvel tried it against City of Heroes, and costumes are far more copyrightable than "a Tolkien-esque story". Keep in mind, something has to be clearly defined for a copyright or trademark, and "it's sort of like this other story" is really hard to prove to a judge or jury's satisfaction.
The Tolkien estate has sued to keep fictional names of creatures for which Tolkien created names, but renaming balrogs into balors got D&D off the hook, and "orc" (originally Tolkien's Elvish name for "goblin",) is completely public domain at this point. Stories that are like Tolkien? Yeah, that' not easy to win.
Beyond that, copyrights don't work if there are at least five other examples of sufficiently similar design. HOW many Tolkien-esque stories have been written in pulp fiction, now? Hell, Angband, Moria, and ToME outright are LotR games, and they didn't get sued.
Beyond even that, Spielberg would actually have to know that DF exists, and he's too busy pissing all over the works of fans of his own intellectual properties' legacies to care looking out very hard for Tolkien's.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 05, 2016, 02:29:36 pm
I've been cooking up these suggestions in my minor absence from the forums. :D
If animals ever get a rehaul to count individuals on a global scale migrationally etc. etc, would mundane animals that could survive the semi-cold and dark environment (grizzly bears for instance) inhabit sections of the caverns via non-megabeast guarded cave entrances? this may be additionally relevant to 0% fantastical worlds in which mundane flora may have room to breathe and expand onto the landscape and serve as a sanctuary from high aboveground settlement & hunting
Believe it or not regional animal populations are in fact tracked, if you kill enough (or civs do) you can make them locally extinct this way. This happens most often with the larger smaller population creatures such as giant wolverines in the mountains, eg attacking your dwarves eventually you can kill them all off.
They Don't migrate I beleive though.
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 05, 2016, 02:50:54 pm
I've been cooking up these suggestions in my minor absence from the forums. :D
If animals ever get a rehaul to count individuals on a global scale migrationally etc. etc, would mundane animals that could survive the semi-cold and dark environment (grizzly bears for instance) inhabit sections of the caverns via non-megabeast guarded cave entrances? this may be additionally relevant to 0% fantastical worlds in which mundane flora may have room to breathe and expand onto the landscape and serve as a sanctuary from high aboveground settlement & hunting
Believe it or not regional animal populations are in fact tracked, if you kill enough (or civs do) you can make them locally extinct this way. This happens most often with the larger smaller population creatures such as giant wolverines in the mountains, eg attacking your dwarves eventually you can kill them all off.
They Don't migrate I beleive though.
I am aware that they flesh into a statistic for each zone yes. But i meant as per individual having a movement pattern (i think the question has been said before in regards to truly 'individual' animals, so thats why i didn't phrase it a particular way) much like a megabeast locating to ruins and roaming (a bear crosses a short expanse of desert to reach a forest on the other side, and large congregations of animals travel to specific points or intermingle on acceptable/tolerable biomes in smaller numbers)
Its moreso a question about adaptability of creatures if ever such a system was put in place.
Post by: Knight Otu on April 05, 2016, 04:10:09 pm
It should be, but toady seems to have said that it won't in the last FotF reply.Yeah, he definitely did.
Post by: NJW2000 on April 05, 2016, 04:30:39 pm
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on April 05, 2016, 08:58:19 pm
HOW many Tolkien-esque stories have been written in pulp fiction, now? Hell, Angband, Moria, and ToME outright are LotR games, and they didn't get sued.Well they're pretty much free but when ToME went for a paid game it ditched the Tolkien world. If theres no commercial gain or being defamatory theres really no reason to sue.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on April 05, 2016, 08:58:54 pm
Is there any form of contingency plan for goblins/supernatural races when magic/supernatural leaders/power giving artifacts are destroyed? Seeming as goblins have no form of baseline nobility or monarch/leader and exist purely underneath their masterThere already is. A different citizen just becomes master. It would be nice if there was some proper simulation of the chaos that would cause in the civilization, same as if a monarch of a elf/dwarf/human(?maybe not humans? They have law-givers, not sure how those work) dies without having a clear heir to the throne, but that's probably going to be a very far away development goal.
Post by: Dirst on April 05, 2016, 09:41:42 pm
Goblins might have the Spiritual leader trait from Civilization IV... no anarchy during changes in the social order :)Is there any form of contingency plan for goblins/supernatural races when magic/supernatural leaders/power giving artifacts are destroyed? Seeming as goblins have no form of baseline nobility or monarch/leader and exist purely underneath their masterThere already is. A different citizen just becomes master. It would be nice if there was some proper simulation of the chaos that would cause in the civilization, same as if a monarch of a elf/dwarf/human(?maybe not humans? They have law-givers, not sure how those work) dies without having a clear heir to the throne, but that's probably going to be a very far away development goal.
Toady did mention a test in which he killed off every last historical figure in the world (like the Dismember Button as a WMD), and it was about a year before everything had a functioning government again. No word on civil unrest during that time, but succession was not instant.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 05, 2016, 11:42:09 pm
Post by: ZM5 on April 06, 2016, 03:18:19 am
"Ey, Break-the-Face, I got da message for de law-giver! Where 'e at?"
"Oh I dunno Burn-the-Flesh, last I saw 'im 'e was getting drunk at the Honeys of Meat and vomiting uncontrollably after Rip-the-Skin punched 'im in the gut."
Post by: BinaryBeast1010011010 on April 06, 2016, 05:45:45 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 06, 2016, 12:10:18 pm
I always thought it was weird how humans had "law-givers" instead of kings or queens - that seems like a name a really primitive race would give their leader - like even more primitive than goblins.
"Ey, Break-the-Face, I got da message for de law-giver! Where 'e at?"
"Oh I dunno Burn-the-Flesh, last I saw 'im 'e was getting drunk at the Honeys of Meat and vomiting uncontrollably after Rip-the-Skin punched 'im in the gut."
For some reason it gives me a stereotypical Norse vibe, though it may be the mead halls as well. Too bad these pitiful humans never put any mead or even dining furniture in the mead halls. ;w;
Post by: ZM5 on April 06, 2016, 12:22:21 pm
For some reason it gives me a stereotypical Norse vibe, though it may be the mead halls as well. Too bad these pitiful humans never put any mead or even dining furniture in the mead halls. ;w;Yeah I do think they're supposed to be Norse-like with the mead halls and such, it's just the "law-giver" title is somewhat weird.
And yeah, it's a shame the mead halls don't have dining rooms or anything where you'd see the local warriors drinking alcohol and brawling. Oh well, maybe it'll be in a future update.
Post by: NJW2000 on April 06, 2016, 12:23:39 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 06, 2016, 03:08:20 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 06, 2016, 03:17:00 pm
No mead? They don't even have any damn bees.
They have hives, the relevant bee-keeping+pressing professions, and the mead reaction. But I've never SEEN humans OR dwarves bring mead, and dwarves seem to lack mead on the embark screen.
Same reason my kobolds in Kobold Kamp never seem to bring kumis/kefir, because it seems custom reactions aren't always reflected in embark/trade.
Post by: NJW2000 on April 06, 2016, 03:20:00 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 06, 2016, 03:24:41 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 06, 2016, 04:45:51 pm
Usually fantasy worlds are ranked by "magic prevalence"(which you have) and "really chaotic magic to extremely consistent controlled magic", with the extreme end of the chaos scale to the right being that magic can essentially be studied as a science and is perfectly consistent, the extreme left of the scale is where magic is extremely unpredictable and dangerous, do you plan to add a "How chaotic is magic" scale in addition to the magical prevalence scale? OR will we just have the prevalence scale.
As we've debated in at least a dozen rather lengthy magic threads, though, the problem with "chaotic" magic is that I've not seen any way to actually implement "chaotic" magic in any way that wouldn't result in an overly fiddly system that is of no practical value or the default reaction to anyone practicing magic to be throwing them into an "unfortunate accident" chamber.
Spoiler: elaboration (click to show/hide)
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 06, 2016, 05:01:29 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 06, 2016, 05:09:24 pm
The reason they don't bring any mead is that they kill the bees to extract bee poison which they DO bring in barrels, rather than use the bees to produce honey (which, in DF, kills the bees as the honey is harvested).No mead? They don't even have any damn bees.
They have hives, the relevant bee-keeping+pressing professions, and the mead reaction. But I've never SEEN humans OR dwarves bring mead, and dwarves seem to lack mead on the embark screen.
Same reason my kobolds in Kobold Kamp never seem to bring kumis/kefir, because it seems custom reactions aren't always reflected in embark/trade.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 06, 2016, 05:28:26 pm
Usually fantasy worlds are ranked by "magic prevalence"(which you have) and "really chaotic magic to extremely consistent controlled magic", with the extreme end of the chaos scale to the right being that magic can essentially be studied as a science and is perfectly consistent, the extreme left of the scale is where magic is extremely unpredictable and dangerous, do you plan to add a "How chaotic is magic" scale in addition to the magical prevalence scale? OR will we just have the prevalence scale.
As we've debated in at least a dozen rather lengthy magic threads, though, the problem with "chaotic" magic is that I've not seen any way to actually implement "chaotic" magic in any way that wouldn't result in an overly fiddly system that is of no practical value or the default reaction to anyone practicing magic to be throwing them into an "unfortunate accident" chamber.Spoiler: elaboration (click to show/hide)
I'm sure toady would come up with something anyway, he does that kind of thing. Like he said in the alternate planes df talk about an artifact that slowly brings your fort into the fire dimension,
this is also why we would have a slider. some people, like me, like the concept of a world where magic is rare but dangerous and unpredictable, and some like magic being all over the place and unpredictable, creating a dystopian type world.
There are many fantasy settings with chaotic magic, and toady already has a list of magic effects, so he can just use a random number and grab an effect, I don't care if it is always super usefull or not "you turn into a plant" is just fine , since you chose to have your magic chaotic.
I dunno.
Perhaps it chooses a sphere, like "plants" and then just generates a bunch of plant effects and chooses from those at random, the spheres are for that kind of thing, (in the myth talk if a creature was created at the beginning by a vapor type force they had weather type effects,(toady even pointed that out) and the brain lizards had phsychic type effects. that shouldn't be hard to choose a sphere right?
even now demons associated with death get access to all necromancy secrets your world has.
At that point it isn't as chaotic though since it has a rule.
Post by: Putnam on April 06, 2016, 05:32:28 pm
Do you have plans to (someday) add a way for the community to script the game using an embedded language?
yes; i remember the phrase "ghosts of dead programmers". Also:
Quote
I guess it's easier to mod, but it should probably be an accepted scripting language instead. The brackets are weird and cumbersome.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 06, 2016, 08:32:35 pm
I'm sure toady would come up with something anyway, he does that kind of thing. Like he said in the alternate planes df talk about an artifact that slowly brings your fort into the fire dimension,
this is also why we would have a slider. some people, like me, like the concept of a world where magic is rare but dangerous and unpredictable, and some like magic being all over the place and unpredictable, creating a dystopian type world.
There are many fantasy settings with chaotic magic, and toady already has a list of magic effects, so he can just use a random number and grab an effect, I don't care if it is always super usefull or not "you turn into a plant" is just fine , since you chose to have your magic chaotic.
Well, simply saying "Toady will think of something" is at least magical thinking... Again, this isn't a matter of just using some elegant code, I have yet to find anyone who can even conceptually describe a system that produces magic effects that achieve the sorts of ill-described, nebulous effects you tend to find in fantasy fiction. All they come up with is a Wild Magic Table. It doesn't matter how good a coder Toady is, he can't do the impossible. Judging by what magic interactions he's done, for that matter, vampires and necromancers are entirely "predictable" magic, while werewhatevers are unpredictable only in that instead of being attacked by a werewolf, you instead get attacked by a weresheep.
Fantasy novels have the advantage of withholding information from the reader. Magic effects can be a "surprise" because the reader wasn't clued in to what they do, before, but that effect is rapidly lost when you systemize and make routine that sort of magic interaction. For that matter, fiction novels don't need to keep a simulation of the exact physical effects a spell has upon every rock in such a way that a reader could easily ascertain the exact dimensions to which a fireball spell actually has its area of effect. Harry Potter having hopping chocolate frogs for the first time is a surprise and a "mystery" and novel. When Harry gets on his name-brand flying broom to win his 7th straight quidditch match, they have to introduce villains trying to sabotage or otherwise overshadow the proceedings because flying on brooms chasing after a golden ball that only Harry can catch to always win becomes boring and routine. For that matter, Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans where the beans are randomly either caramel corn or vomit-flavored is a really stupid idea outside of the first "sheer novelty" tasting. Even my Harry Potter-obsessed mother and aunt only bought them once before declaring that having a box guaranteed to have flavors like "booger" in it somewhere if you just kept eating every candy in the box was a really stupid idea.
And yes, it's a slider, and I'm sure there are some people who'd enjoy it so that they could "have their fortress explode epically," which might be good for a laugh the first couple times you turn the air into fire and everyone dies for no reason. I suspect more players are interested in not barbecuing themselves just as they're getting their fort on its feet just for the giggles, and would weld that slider firmly "off". I'm not sure if it's worth the effort of creating such "chaotic" magic if almost nobody would use it more than once, however.
After all, even when you start talking about it, the only example you give happens to be a "your dwarf dies for no reason" example. You might as well replicate the effects of this kind of "magic system" by just rolling 1d20 every month, and if you roll a 1, change the raws so that flesh melts at -20 Celcius. Same basic effect as the "chaotic magic" the occasional person clamors for.
Post by: Dirst on April 06, 2016, 08:54:52 pm
The Lord Darcy series does a good job of making magic seem tameable, but not yet tamed, as if it was a new science. I especially liked the explanation of why an 'invisibility' spell was infeasible (you're really preventing everyone in the area from looking in your direction... or at any reflective surfaces).I'm sure toady would come up with something anyway, he does that kind of thing. Like he said in the alternate planes df talk about an artifact that slowly brings your fort into the fire dimension,
this is also why we would have a slider. some people, like me, like the concept of a world where magic is rare but dangerous and unpredictable, and some like magic being all over the place and unpredictable, creating a dystopian type world.
There are many fantasy settings with chaotic magic, and toady already has a list of magic effects, so he can just use a random number and grab an effect, I don't care if it is always super usefull or not "you turn into a plant" is just fine , since you chose to have your magic chaotic.
Well, simply saying "Toady will think of something" is at least magical thinking... Again, this isn't a matter of just using some elegant code, I have yet to find anyone who can even conceptually describe a system that produces magic effects that achieve the sorts of ill-described, nebulous effects you tend to find in fantasy fiction. All they come up with is a Wild Magic Table. It doesn't matter how good a coder Toady is, he can't do the impossible. Judging by what magic interactions he's done, for that matter, vampires and necromancers are entirely "predictable" magic, while werewhatevers are unpredictable only in that instead of being attacked by a werewolf, you instead get attacked by a weresheep.
Fantasy novels have the advantage of withholding information from the reader. Magic effects can be a "surprise" because the reader wasn't clued in to what they do, before, but that effect is rapidly lost when you systemize and make routine that sort of magic interaction. For that matter, fiction novels don't need to keep a simulation of the exact physical effects a spell has upon every rock in such a way that a reader could easily ascertain the exact dimensions to which a fireball spell actually has its area of effect. Harry Potter having hopping chocolate frogs for the first time is a surprise and a "mystery" and novel. When Harry gets on his name-brand flying broom to win his 7th straight quidditch match, they have to introduce villains trying to sabotage or otherwise overshadow the proceedings because flying on brooms chasing after a golden ball that only Harry can catch to always win becomes boring and routine. For that matter, Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans where the beans are randomly either caramel corn or vomit-flavored is a really stupid idea outside of the first "sheer novelty" tasting. Even my Harry Potter-obsessed mother and aunt only bought them once before declaring that having a box guaranteed to have flavors like "booger" in it somewhere if you just kept eating every candy in the box was a really stupid idea.
And yes, it's a slider, and I'm sure there are some people who'd enjoy it so that they could "have their fortress explode epically," which might be good for a laugh the first couple times you turn the air into fire and everyone dies for no reason. I suspect more players are interested in not barbecuing themselves just as they're getting their fort on its feet just for the giggles, and would weld that slider firmly "off". I'm not sure if it's worth the effort of creating such "chaotic" magic if almost nobody would use it more than once, however.
After all, even when you start talking about it, the only example you give happens to be a "your dwarf dies for no reason" example. You might as well replicate the effects of this kind of "magic system" by just rolling 1d20 every month, and if you roll a 1, change the raws so that flesh melts at -20 Celcius. Same basic effect as the "chaotic magic" the occasional person clamors for.
Though I'm not familiar with "the" Wild Magic Table, you can get quite a bit of wild into magic by making the range, scope, duration and power random. I don't mean the random of a 10d6 damage fireball (which will be somewhere around 35 almost every time), but something that legitimately spans a couple orders of magnitude by operating on a log scale. Hopefully that Smother Fire spell doesn't run too strong and you shut down every forge in the fort for a while. Equip each Sphere with its own sliding scale of side-effects (basically "paying for" the random boost), and you have something suitably not industrialized.
Not trying to turn this into the Suggestions thread, just trying to point out that a large enough set of tricks can lead to quite complex behavior in much the same way even the deterministic parts of the raws can lead to unexpected moments in the game. But coming up with a large set of tricks is quite a lot of work, and it's not really withing the scope of the initial release of the myth generator.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 06, 2016, 09:07:06 pm
The Lord Darcy series does a good job of making magic seem tameable, but not yet tamed, as if it was a new science. I especially liked the explanation of why an 'invisibility' spell was infeasible (you're really preventing everyone in the area from looking in your direction... or at any reflective surfaces).I'm not familiar, but that doesn't seem like it would translate into a computer simulation with little by way of established lines of sight, much less mirrors or the concept of reflections...
Though I'm not familiar with "the" Wild Magic Table, you can get quite a bit of wild into magic by making the range, scope, duration and power random. I don't mean the random of a 10d6 damage fireball (which will be somewhere around 35 almost every time), but something that legitimately spans a couple orders of magnitude by operating on a log scale. Hopefully that Smother Fire spell doesn't run too strong and you shut down every forge in the fort for a while. Equip each Sphere with its own sliding scale of side-effects (basically "paying for" the random boost), and you have something suitably not industrialized.
And once again, the example of what "wild magic" means comes down to "it has a 20% chance of killing everyone nearby." Whenever I ask what "wild magic" means in terms of something that can actually be in a game, it always comes down to "it kills your dwarves if you use it". This isn't complex behavior, it's just a random game over if you're stupid enough to use the system.
Again, DF is fundamentally a game of managed risk. The system of job queues and indirect control means you lose all control of a chaotic situation while it is happening, so DF is all about pre-empting every possible threat with a neurotically elaborate set of contingencies. Using any sort of "Wild Magic" that can randomly kill your entire fort is pretty much the stupidest thing any player can do outside of open the HFS in year 1 before you've drafted a military.
Whenever people talk about this sort of magic, it's always either that they want some incredibly vague thing that can only exist in a fiction novel, or they're suggesting something where they think it would be really cool if there were a few more "Press X to crumble my fortress" buttons lying around.
(Incidentally, just Google "Wild Magic Table" - there's one for nearly every major RPG, it's not any one single THE Wild Magic Table.)
Post by: Dirst on April 06, 2016, 09:20:31 pm
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on April 06, 2016, 09:24:26 pm
What does the SUPERNATURAL tag do? The wiki claims that it gives a creature access to all secrets of a corresponding sphere, yet it doesn't seem to do that in 42.xx.
RE "Chaotic" magic: It seems to me that the most feasible implementation of this would be a sort of a magical quality system. An Archmage with unlimited regents could always cast ☼masterwork☼ spells, while an apprentice with a paucity of supplies would be quite prone to misfires. This way, while your fortress wouldn't go up in flame without warning, it could still do so, if you're not careful enough.
EDIT: The logical extension of this would be a magical ease-slider, allowing anything from a world with no chance of spells failing to one where the chance of success is never more than a coin-flip.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 06, 2016, 09:46:45 pm
Yes, insta-game-over is not really fun to most people. The game Mage had a fantastic mechanic called Paradox, and I think a deep list of effects related to each Sphere could do the job of a mediocre GM. But it would also need the infrastructure of assigning Sphere associations to every creature, plant, item, etc. in the game (side-effects can be based on the target). Basically, a crap-ton of work that only makes sense if almost every one of the building blocks is useful to some other facet of the game. Sphere effects could make FB syndromes more thematic, creature/plant associations can get us away from the Good/Evil/Calm/Savage grids, and so on... but the bits and pieces will need to come organically from DF development. It's a bit silly to insist that Toady make some ginormous Magic System™ that sits completely apart from everything else in the simulation.(we should definetly avoid turning this into a suggestions thread)
We already have spheres and magic associated to spheres, so it seems the potential is already there (wasn't that the intention) .
There is a great table in the d&d user manual that talks about creating settings with chaotic magic, its less "immediate destruction lol" and more a "be careful, because you are messing with a force you dont fully understand, something that can be unpredictable in the wrong hands," its not instant death, its more like moderated death and toady has talked about how he wants to avoid "the industrialization of magic", so a chaotic magic setting would have magic, and that magic would by nature have far reaching effects and could be reliable most of the time but only very very specific people could "harness that" without bad things happening otherwise, you are inviting horrible things to happen. It could still be common in its raw form in this situation aswell. It could be as simple as making miscasts much more common aswell.
I think it fits the nature of DF quite well tbh, but I still think we should have a slider, because sometimes you want a hard world, with crazy things happening, and sometimes you dont. Sometimes you want magic to be really dangerous but powerful. Sometimes you don't.
Very few people would want a world without dwarves in dwarf fortress, but the myth generator has that at magic settings 0-1 so why not have chaotic magic slider with similar desirablity. Yeah its more work, but I think it would be worth it.
The current myth generator leans more towards magic has a cost, but it is reliable, and while that works for certain settings, it doesnt work for all settings, and I hope that df will eventually be able to generate more varied settings.
better explanation:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4E22DL0XscIMDM0MmUyOTktZDc2MS00NzU3LWE3MDYtMTUwYTY5NDgwYTUx/view
funny thing is DF actually leans towards "magic is rare and magic is chaotic" right now, we have evil regions that turn you into thralls, and do other horrifying things , powerful dangerous necromancers, and powers that have a huge cost (you want to see people through walls, you need to be a vampire and you need blood)
Quote
RE "Chaotic" magic: It seems to me that the most feasible implementation of this would be a sort of a magical quality system. An Archmage with unlimited regents could always cast ☼masterwork☼ spells, while an apprentice with a paucity of supplies would be quite prone to misfires. This way, while your fortress wouldn't go up in flame without warning, it could still do so, if you're not careful enough.
EDIT: The logical extension of this would be a magical ease-slider, allowing anything from a world with no chance of spells failing to one where the chance of success is never more than a coin-flip.
This I like
----------------
perhaps we should avoid the hijacking of the thread here.
The GDC myth-generator video shows that randomized races are in the pipeline. Will users be able to influence the random elements, and if so, by how much?
What does the SUPERNATURAL tag do? The wiki claims that it gives a creature access to all secrets of a corresponding sphere, yet it doesn't seem to do that in 42.xx.
I have seen demons with the death sphere that know like 24 versions of necromancy in the legends viewer in this version (you know SECRET_01, SECRET_02) what it calls the necromancer secrets, so it does work, at least for them.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 06, 2016, 10:25:37 pm
Yes, insta-game-over is not really fun to most people. The game Mage had a fantastic mechanic called Paradox, and I think a deep list of effects related to each Sphere could do the job of a mediocre GM.
Mage: the Awakening also had a very nuanced set of circumstances (as in extremely difficult to have a computer GM it) under which Paradox would ever apply, and made it a punishment for misuse of magic, rather than mere use of magic. Mage allowed for a wide variety of ways to avoid Paradox, including through a large list of "covert" spells that run no risk of Paradox, and, for that matter, the fact that magic was often better used simply augmenting natural abilities over direct action. (Why shoot lightning bolts from your fingers for 6 dice of damage and threat of Paradox when you can boost your firearms skill and dexterity, and then shoot a gun for 13 dice of damage and no threat of Paradox?)
funny thing is DF actually leans towards "magic is rare and magic is chaotic" right now, we have evil regions that turn you into thralls, and do other horrifying things , powerful dangerous necromancers, and powers that have a huge cost (you want to see people through walls, you need to be a vampire and you need blood)
Actually, DF right now is absolutely on the "industrialized" side of things. Players can straddle "raises the dead" evil biomes so that dead are raised only on one end of the map, allowing for stockpiling of corpses that can be thrown into revivifying areas as weapons against other threats like sieges or FBs. Players can make "vampire fortresses" by making vampires bleed into water sources and infect target dwarves at will for immortality. Players can not only weaponize enemy necromancers against other enemies, there's a whole thread on how to literally turn necromancy into industrial bacon production (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113638.msg3467511#msg3467511).
The only thing slightly unpredictable is were-creatures, because it's hard to know exactly when you contract those, but even then, Loud Whispers had an "elite werecivet team" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146908.msg5904222;topicseen#msg5904222) that took advantage of monthly transformations to instantly heal all damage, turning werecivet military squads into nigh-immortal warriors that regenerate from all damage once a month at the relatively small price of having to quarantine them from the rest of the fortress.
However, yes, this is enough for a spin-off conversation. The Xenosynthesis thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76578.0) was my last "magic thread" (although it's a DF General, not Suggestion if you want a suggestion) and specifically is about magic that has rational guideline and consequence.
Post by: Dirst on April 06, 2016, 10:49:09 pm
Paradox is not the "misuse" of magic, except in the sense that young mages are told not to use magic in a way that creates Paradox, which is somewhat circular reasoning. Paradox results from doing something utterly unbelievable in the eyes of the witnesses. That origin is well beyond the capabilities of a DF engine, which is a shame because it leads to some of the best nuance in the what-is-reality thread running throughout the game (especially when a static magician stumbles into Paradox blindly). But in the hands of a mediocre GM, Paradox can be a list of context-sensitive side-effects of varying levels of seriousness. That, I think, DF can do.Yes, insta-game-over is not really fun to most people. The game Mage had a fantastic mechanic called Paradox, and I think a deep list of effects related to each Sphere could do the job of a mediocre GM.
Mage: the Awakening also had a very nuanced set of circumstances (as in extremely difficult to have a computer GM it) under which Paradox would ever apply, and made it a punishment for misuse of magic, rather than mere use of magic. Mage allowed for a wide variety of ways to avoid Paradox, including through a large list of "covert" spells that run no risk of Paradox, and, for that matter, the fact that magic was often better used simply augmenting natural abilities over direct action. (Why shoot lightning bolts from your fingers for 6 dice of damage and threat of Paradox when you can boost your firearms skill and dexterity, and then shoot a gun for 13 dice of damage and no threat of Paradox?)
Anyway, I hope that we end up with three or four degrees of control over magic, but I'm happy to see us making at least the first baby steps along Cado's Magical Journey.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 06, 2016, 11:33:39 pm
Post by: KillerClowns on April 07, 2016, 09:44:35 am
Then again, Dwarf Fortress is fundamentally about the sometimes glorious, sometimes Sisyphean, and sometimes simply farcical endeavor to carve structure and meaning out of chaos and mystery. To even start playing Dwarf Fortress, one must turn an alien, seemingly arbitrary system of ASCII soup into a mental representation of a living world. After that, turning an alien, seemingly arbitrary system of magic into a tool is a logical next step.
Post by: Tiruin on April 07, 2016, 10:01:47 am
funny thing is DF actually leans towards "magic is rare and magic is chaotic" right now, we have evil regions that turn you into thralls, and do other horrifying things , powerful dangerous necromancers, and powers that have a huge cost (you want to see people through walls, you need to be a vampire and you need blood)Just to ask, did you mean 'magic' as in being able to be manually manipulated by the creatures of the world, or magic in a sense of environmental/natural/deity forces? Because the latter seems to be a more common sort than the former, which that statement could apply. And as NW mentioned (understandable systematic magic), it's controllable by terrain and biome currently.
Which as far as I remember in reading the development of DF, it makes sense in the progression of deities and how they affect the planned world.
Tiny question, unsure if it was addressed before but a cursory search doesn't show:
Will it be possible to overlap trade depot zones with inn/tavern zones?
Unsure how to write that. It's my first time posting here in a thread like this. ._.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 07, 2016, 10:28:55 am
Tiny question, unsure if it was addressed before but a cursory search doesn't show:
Will it be possible to overlap trade depot zones with inn/tavern zones?
Unsure how to write that. It's my first time posting here in a thread like this. ._.
This would presumably require trade depots to become zones first, rather than constructions. Personally, if we could have an outsiders-only tavern option, that would be useful. Otherwise, I see no real value in a tavern that's also a trade depot, because how can you use visitors as meat shields if your dorfs keep mucking about out there too? o3o
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 07, 2016, 11:09:08 am
The Lord Darcy series does a good job of making magic seem tameable, but not yet tamed, as if it was a new science. I especially liked the explanation of why an 'invisibility' spell was infeasible (you're really preventing everyone in the area from looking in your direction... or at any reflective surfaces).I'm not familiar, but that doesn't seem like it would translate into a computer simulation with little by way of established lines of sight, much less mirrors or the concept of reflections...
I understand from this statement you don't play adventure mode much?
Line of sight, with actual vision cones, including periifferal vision and which direction people are facing and how dark clothing one is wearing is all taken into account. And many many other factors.
So that's in.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 07, 2016, 11:26:28 am
that doesn't seem like it would translate into a computer simulation with little by way of established lines of sight, much less mirrors or the concept of reflections...
I understand from this statement you don't play adventure mode much?
Line of sight, with actual vision cones, including periifferal vision and which direction people are facing and how dark clothing one is wearing is all taken into account. And many many other factors.
So that's in.
Vision cones in this game are very, very minimal. Toady doesn't even have the capacity for allowing graphics to show gender, much less something as specific as facing, and facing is basically "which direction you moved in last", without people looking left while walking forward.
There is no real capacity for a distinction between "I am looking directly at a mirror" versus "this mirror happens to be vaguely in the direction I am walking". It's so anathema to the current interface and control scheme that anything other than having a "look character action" (as opposed to the player interface tool) you manually punch and then target the mirror would basically be impossible. Compare this to something like a 3d game where you just, you know, point the camera at the mirror.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 07, 2016, 11:41:05 am
After all, illusionists are quite good at making people fail to see what's there, and make them see what's not there, and they're not even using magic.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 07, 2016, 12:14:03 pm
If the mirror is in your peripheral vision (which is tracked and distinguished) then the mirror is vaguely in the direction I am walking.that doesn't seem like it would translate into a computer simulation with little by way of established lines of sight, much less mirrors or the concept of reflections...
I understand from this statement you don't play adventure mode much?
Line of sight, with actual vision cones, including periifferal vision and which direction people are facing and how dark clothing one is wearing is all taken into account. And many many other factors.
So that's in.
Vision cones in this game are very, very minimal. Toady doesn't even have the capacity for allowing graphics to show gender, much less something as specific as facing, and facing is basically "which direction you moved in last", without people looking left while walking forward.
There is no real capacity for a distinction between "I am looking directly at a mirror" versus "this mirror happens to be vaguely in the direction I am walking". It's so anathema to the current interface and control scheme that anything other than having a "look character action" (as opposed to the player interface tool) you manually punch and then target the mirror would basically be impossible. Compare this to something like a 3d game where you just, you know, point the camera at the mirror.
Also you don't need graphics to say I am walking one direction and looking left you just move the vision cone. You act like this is some impossible possibility. It's coded in there visually you can look at the vision cones.vision cones also look different for each animal based on the Raws so you can have creatures for example which can we 180 degrees around them. It's very in depth.
There is 8 directions, and you see this in game while sneaking
Directions are clearly distinguished now.in fact I know for sure I have seen animals "sweep" their vision cones it can make sneaking behind them a bit more difficult sometimes.
It's about as good as you can get with ascii.
Though details like the person described (with creatures looking away instead of just having something be invisible is needlessly complicated.
Post by: Dirst on April 07, 2016, 01:12:46 pm
After all, illusionists are ... not even using magic.What?! O.o No, the magic has to be real. I saw it...
Post by: HenAi on April 07, 2016, 01:32:55 pm
Or you could go a different direction and say "making a fireball means you're working with the element of fire", so maybe instead of a fireball you open up a portal to a different plane associated with fire. Perhaps some creature is going to emerge from the portal. Again, you could say "and there goes your fortress", but if the strength of the creature is tied to the strength of the mage working the spell, perhaps it's really weak. Perhaps it's not necessarily hostile, either. So now you've got a burning cat walking around your fortress.
So I think if you want that, the way to do it and make it interesting is instead of just randomizing the spell from a list of premade effects and/or their strength, you put a level of "how does that spell work/what does that spell do" in between, randomize from there and limit the resulting strength according to the strength of the original spell.
The obvious downside is the work needed to actually build that system, of course.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 07, 2016, 02:03:45 pm
Oh, I'm not talking about Uri Geller. He's not an illusionist but a Mentalist, and he actually uses magic and not trickery, 'case he says so.After all, illusionists are ... not even using magic.What?! O.o No, the magic has to be real. I saw it...
@HenAi: Causing nuclear fusion would not end the fortress, because there's nothing to keep it going once the initial blast kills or knocks out the mage. There might be some local structural reengineering, though. This disregards the enormous amounts of energy having to be put in to create the fusion in the first place, as well as the incredible precision with which it has to be applied. Rather than a nuclear fusion, you'd get a laser cutter, with a plasma removing the floor tile. I could envision generation of the powers required for accidental nuclear fusion if 1000 top level mages where conducting an incredibly high level ritual, but again, to actually accidentally generate a small ITER level single fusion burst would require precision. A "conventional" huge fire ball would be possible, although the most probable result is just a fizzle.
I agree the power results of a failure generally should match the power of the attempted casting. I can think of two things throwing that off significantly, and the first one is "local" magic in the form of an elevated ambient magic level (unknown or misapplied by the mage), magic power supplying item (again, an uncontrolled surge, rather than a slow steady flow), or the like, and the other is when a mage attracts the attention of some powerful extra planar being that uses the miscast magic as a conduit for its own, considerably more powerful, magic to e.g. open a portal to step through, mind control the mage, etc.
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on April 07, 2016, 02:18:41 pm
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on April 07, 2016, 04:59:50 pm
I did a bit of testing, and it would seem that not only do spire-demons have some sort of monopoly on SUPERNATURAL (presumably by way of either the GENERATED or UNIQUE_DEMON tags,) but only the ones that rule goblins get its benefits. I tried adventuring as one (by way of some .exe hackery,) then retiring him, and he didn't have access to any secrets. What's more, it would seem that spire-demons can't actually use their knowledge. I made a rainbow-aligned secret that turns the learner into a horse, gave all spire-demons the RAINBOWS sphere, and none of them changed, despite knowing the secret. I even found one in person, just to see if world-gen was being finicky.The GDC myth-generator video shows that randomized races are in the pipeline. Will users be able to influence the random elements, and if so, by how much?
What does the SUPERNATURAL tag do? The wiki claims that it gives a creature access to all secrets of a corresponding sphere, yet it doesn't seem to do that in 42.xx.
I have seen demons with the death sphere that know like 24 versions of necromancy in the legends viewer in this version (you know SECRET_01, SECRET_02) what it calls the necromancer secrets, so it does work, at least for them.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 07, 2016, 05:06:03 pm
I did a bit of testing, and it would seem that not only do spire-demons have some sort of monopoly on SUPERNATURAL (presumably by way of either the GENERATED or UNIQUE_DEMON tags,) but only the ones that rule goblins get its benefits. I tried adventuring as one (by way of some .exe hackery,) then retiring him, and he didn't have access to any secrets. What's more, it would seem that spire-demons can't actually use their knowledge. I made a rainbow-aligned secret that turns the learner into a horse, gave all spire-demons the RAINBOWS sphere, and none of them changed, despite knowing the secret. I even found one in person, just to see if world-gen was being finicky.The GDC myth-generator video shows that randomized races are in the pipeline. Will users be able to influence the random elements, and if so, by how much?
What does the SUPERNATURAL tag do? The wiki claims that it gives a creature access to all secrets of a corresponding sphere, yet it doesn't seem to do that in 42.xx.
I have seen demons with the death sphere that know like 24 versions of necromancy in the legends viewer in this version (you know SECRET_01, SECRET_02) what it calls the necromancer secrets, so it does work, at least for them.
interesting!
Perhaps they have to have it at the beginning of world gen to have the secret?
Were they labeled as having access to it in legends viewer? (thats how I found that out with demons)
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on April 07, 2016, 05:22:53 pm
They were in the .xml-dump, which is what I assume legends-viewer reads.I did a bit of testing, and it would seem that not only do spire-demons have some sort of monopoly on SUPERNATURAL (presumably by way of either the GENERATED or UNIQUE_DEMON tags,) but only the ones that rule goblins get its benefits. I tried adventuring as one (by way of some .exe hackery,) then retiring him, and he didn't have access to any secrets. What's more, it would seem that spire-demons can't actually use their knowledge. I made a rainbow-aligned secret that turns the learner into a horse, gave all spire-demons the RAINBOWS sphere, and none of them changed, despite knowing the secret. I even found one in person, just to see if world-gen was being finicky.The GDC myth-generator video shows that randomized races are in the pipeline. Will users be able to influence the random elements, and if so, by how much?
What does the SUPERNATURAL tag do? The wiki claims that it gives a creature access to all secrets of a corresponding sphere, yet it doesn't seem to do that in 42.xx.
I have seen demons with the death sphere that know like 24 versions of necromancy in the legends viewer in this version (you know SECRET_01, SECRET_02) what it calls the necromancer secrets, so it does work, at least for them.
interesting!
Perhaps they have to have it at the beginning of world gen to have the secret?
Were they labeled as having access to it in legends viewer? (thats how I found that out with demons)
EDIT: Now that I think of it, the plump-helmet man-necromancy bug is pertinent. They can teach the secrets of life and death, but not use them. The knowledge components of secrets seem to exist independently of their effects.
Post by: pikachu17 on April 08, 2016, 02:00:57 pm
are you still going to add haunted furniture,Stalkers and Grendel in the future, or have you decided against those creatures for some reason? And if and when you add animated furniture, does that mean that interactions will be able to affect items and transform creatures into items and vice versa?
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 08, 2016, 02:14:28 pm
are you still going to add haunted furniture,Stalkers and Grendel in the future, or have you decided against those creatures for some reason? And if and when you add animated furniture, does that mean that interactions will be able to affect items and transform creatures into items and vice versa?
Actusally if you watch the recent talk he did at gdc, one of the powers was "animate furniture".
Nah toady jumps around, the plans have essentially been the same over the last many releases, he has a huge list of like 2000 items he keeps track off, and he is only adding things from the list, though he did say there is a very tiny amount of leeway in case he wants to add something fun though. Of course he also occasionally does community suggestions.
In fact there is s huge night creature hunter arc on the Dev page he hasn't really started working on yet.
(all version numbers toady does are based on percentages, right now the game is 42% done) It isnt arbitrary.
Post by: pikachu17 on April 08, 2016, 02:25:12 pm
Post by: Nahere on April 08, 2016, 03:17:14 pm
gdc talk (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Practices-in-Procedural)
Post by: ZM5 on April 08, 2016, 04:24:01 pm
Here:Hmm, seeing the "raws", so to speak, for the myth generator, I gotta ask - once it's added to the game, will modders need to add their own creatures and such to the file itself, or will sentient, civilized races be automatically pulled from the raws into the myths in-game without having to create any additional files?gdc talk (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Practices-in-Procedural)
Post by: Putnam on April 08, 2016, 05:24:24 pm
Post by: Miuramir on April 08, 2016, 10:52:24 pm
And once again, the example of what "wild magic" means comes down to "it has a 20% chance of killing everyone nearby." Whenever I ask what "wild magic" means in terms of something that can actually be in a game, it always comes down to "it kills your dwarves if you use it". This isn't complex behavior, it's just a random game over if you're stupid enough to use the system.
Again, DF is fundamentally a game of managed risk. ...
Let me try and give a different sort of example. Let's assume for the moment that future!DF has a sliding "chaosity of magic" parameter; and that it can reasonably be condensed into a simple parameter of small integers. (Given the "fantasy level" parameter for the mythology generator shown in the GDC talk which works exactly like that, I think it's a decent starting point at least.)
Due to whatever combination of origin myths (which seem to frequently involve cosmic eggs, and commonly animal deities), let's say there is a spell that creates turkey eggs; as this is nominally for your breakfast omelette (Turkey Egg Stew: Expertly Diced Turkey Eggs x3), the simplest version creates 3. (The costs, difficulty in researching or learning, etc. would be set elsewhere in the generator.)
Chaos 0: Spell creates 3 turkey eggs (3-3, avg. 3)
Chaos 1: Spell creates 1d3+1 turkey eggs (2-4, avg. 3)
Chaos 2: Spell creates 1d5 turkey eggs (1-5, avg. 3)
Chaos 3: Spell creates 1d6-1 turkey eggs, with the dice exploding (http://"https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Exploding_die") on 6 (0 to infinite, or maxint at least; but still avg. 3)
Chaos 4: Spell creates 1d6-1 items, with the dice exploding on 6 (0 to infinite, or maxint at least; but still avg. 3); plus an additional d6 is rolled... 1: a random sort of egg; 2-5, turkey egg(s) as expected; 6: a random turkey product (varying the kind and the type at the two ends; a spell to create gold ingots might have a chance of random ingots, or random gold things)
Chaos 5: mostly as above, but the additional die is 1: random source or predecessor; 2: random egg; 3-4: turkey egg; 5: random turkey product; 6: random target or successor. You might end up with a live turkey, a ready to eat 3x Turkey Egg Stew (omelette, more or less), or something along those lines. The gold ingots spell might give gold ore, or gold figurines.
Chaos 6: adds another die, which on a 6 gives a random modifier or state to the result so far... eggs might be fertile or rotten or boiling, nominally-live turkeys might be giant or starving or husked. Gold ingots might arrive molten, or as masterwork studding on everything in the workshop.
All of the above are based on fairly straightforward algorithmic modifications of the initial "predictable" result (3 turkey eggs), plus trawling around in pre-existing relationships in the raws. No one would argue that even the Chaos 3 version *can* be a lot less predictable; but really you've got less than 0.5% chance of more than a dozen eggs, the *average* remains 3, and if some fort somewhere generates four dozen eggs from a single casting, that's amusing while also being one in a million.
Even stepping up to Chaos 5... getting several live turkeys when you asked for 3 eggs is certainly a bit surprising, but in the general scheme of fort (or adventurer) life is more likely to cause an amusing anecdote than the fall of civilization.
Only when you turn it all the way up to Chaos 6 does there become any real potential for disaster, and the odds are very low. Even most of the weird results are annoying and/or humorous; ending up with 11 rotting Turkey Egg Stew in your magic workshop, with attendant miasma until cleaned up, is unlikely to end any reasonably prepared fortress. There's a tiny chance of ending up with a few angry zombie turkeys, or were-turkeys; this could cause a moderate amount of damage to a good fort or end a teetering one, but the chances for this sort of ending are down there with "embarked someplace with undead eagles and rain that stuns the living". And remember that this is a *voluntary* parameter turned (in this example) up as far as it could go.
While the example is a bit contrived, hopefully it helps explain how a simple spell "creates about 3 turkey eggs" can become gradually more chaotic, via entirely procedural means that can readily be programmed within the existing structures.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 09, 2016, 12:36:04 am
stuff
Alright, this conversation is really turning into too much of a derail, so I'll just post my answer in the existing magic thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76578.msg6924760#msg6924760). (Good thing too, because that was a pretty long response, and I'm sure I'd get a ton of TL;DR whining about it...)
If anyone else wants to chime in, please do so there.
Post by: TheFlame52 on April 09, 2016, 07:34:50 pm
Taverns are two-story. Towers and keeps are multi-story. Will other buildings like houses or shops be multi-story in the future?
Is there a comprehensive list of divine materials in the game, but only some of them actually get generated? I've noticed that a few metals/fabrics are always the same combination of descriptor and sphere. Examples: sonorous lines/music, twisting metal/chaos.
Post by: therahedwig on April 10, 2016, 12:35:52 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 10, 2016, 03:36:19 pm
How do you plan on dealing with introducing a variety of magical abilities as the development progresses? I mean, I imagine you wouldn't be able to make one big fancy magic release with all the types of magic possible, as probably a lot of these things need to be programmed in and have a modicum of balancing, on the other hand, I can imagine that you might want to keep people on their toes when it comes to new features in magic. Is it going to be handled like hidden fun stuff? Or are you going to nicely put into the release notes 'transfiguration into aquatic animals is now possible'?
If hes doing the planes of existence alongside, it will probably be another 9 month/year long release cycle, which should be enough time to get many of his ideas in (definetly not all of them though), but he will get to it, He already has the prototype so some of the code (or at least the algorithms are there) of course the actual magic isn't, though many of these could be accomplished using a more fleshed out interaction/syndrome system (which we have already, its what everything magic uses right now (necros,vampires,werebeasts, and you can mod in ice shooting/blizzard shooting people and such already).
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 10, 2016, 04:05:01 pm
How do you plan on dealing with introducing a variety of magical abilities as the development progresses? I mean, I imagine you wouldn't be able to make one big fancy magic release with all the types of magic possible, as probably a lot of these things need to be programmed in and have a modicum of balancing, on the other hand, I can imagine that you might want to keep people on their toes when it comes to new features in magic. Is it going to be handled like hidden fun stuff? Or are you going to nicely put into the release notes 'transfiguration into aquatic animals is now possible'?
I'm trying to answer my way through this in the Xenosynthesis thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76578.180), but I really have to repeat over here that by far the biggest hurdle in introducing new magic is not making a system for its generation or results of its effects, but the AI required not to make it "suicidal dipshit magic".
Consider that there used to be wizards in the game about a decade ago, but they were taken out because, like all creatures that are not immune to their own power, they inevitably killed themselves more often than any enemy. In that case, because their fireballs started grassfires that burned them alive since they were not fire-proof. The same situation still occurs with FBs that have deadly dust clouds - they are easily dispatched by throwing your most expendable livestock in their way and waiting for them to activate their power, which they do reflexively in the face of any enemy, and inevitably blows their own limbs off.
This is precisely why all the syndromes that exist are the "bad stuff" like poisons, diseases, and magical full-body blistering death by your brain literally drowning in its own puss plauges by FBs and clowns. The AIs for figuring out how to use anything as "complicated" as "use this pain-reducing salve when you're in pain" do not really exist, leading to the problem I asked Toady a question about a few years ago:
Spoiler: Long Toady Quote (click to show/hide)
The magic that is name-dropped in the Myth Generator shown off at GDC, for example, involves magic like "the ability to turn themselves into a plant", which would be Suicidal Dipshit Magic (SDM for short) under virtually any circumstance even when controlled by a player, but in the hands of the AI, it would result in situations like this:
A player-controlled adventurer marches up to a wizard's tower, and challenges the "evil" wizard of fresh produce.
Wizard: "FOOL! You shall now taste my fell magics!"
The wizard raises his hands and fell magics spring forth!
The wizard has transformed into a kumquat!
You pick up a kumquat.
You eat a kumquat - you are now full.
Maybe after the player finishes looting the wizard's tower, they'll start getting hungry enough again to go try and taste some more fell magic from SDM plantomancers.
Likewise, Armok help you if your civ race is randomly assigned the "turn into a plant" magic, and your elite axedwarf squads all start transforming themselves into turnips at the mere sight of the enemy because they use the same AI script as the "deadly dust" FBs have right now.
Now, "turn yourself into a plant" is a pretty universally stupid spell, but even if you had something hypothetically very useful, like that "power to control water", will inevitably turn into the "drown yourself" power for anyone but a player-controlled adventurer. Even if all dwarves suddenly became amphibious and as useful as Aquaman, it would still become the "screw up the pathfinding and grind your FPS to a total halt" spell for as long as pathfinding doesn't get a total rewrite to get around that whole problem of water blocking pathing and requiring a connectivity map redraw. Don't hold your breath (literally or figuratively).
Basically, even completely non-random magic, in the hands of an AI that doesn't have explicit scripting that would take orders of magnitude more time and effort than adding the magic itself, which would force a much, much slower release schedule.
This is also exactly why what magic has been introduced has not only been tiny increments of just one or two creatures at a time, but even those were notoriously buggy. Remember when werecreatures were first introduced, and they reproduced so explosively the world became a carpet of werecritter lairs surrounding completely depopulated city ruins? Remember how it took years of tweaking to get them to be any kind of thread to your fortress instead of a werewhatever attack producing a single angry naked peasant at your gates? What about vampires, which originally would stroll in with 10,000 humanoid skull trophies and would brag in Adventurer Mode about their many thousands of humanoid kills they got when they "spent five years as a cheesemaker"?
Even if we're charitable, and say that Toady focuses pretty heavily on adding AI scripts for each thing and tests them well and does so fairly quickly, we're talking about setting aside a few weeks per every unique magical action the game can have just on the AI scripting alone to prevent it from being SDM.
And again, that's NON-random magic. Armok again help us if we get dwarves with fireballs that might randomly be three times as big as they thought it would be, or you'll have dwarves - which you have NO capacity to stop from using their fireballs - essentially in the "there is a 20% chance per tick where they see a monster of flash-frying themselves" category where ALL magic is inherently SDM.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 10, 2016, 04:27:23 pm
snip
Tis a prototype friend, I have a feeling it will make more sense later on. Also as stated many times before people like magic that doesn't always work the way you expect it (including toady).
Also what if by "turn into plant" it means to turn into an ent type creature.
I think you are coming up with the worst possibilities and assuming that's what it means. IM sure toady won't "RUIN!!!" the game he has had this stuff planned for a long time. Give him the benefit of the doubt. What he has put out so far in this game in general hasnt ruined it.
The "control water" probably means something more like "shoot steam" and "water-bending" type attack actions.
Also there will be a slider for how magical you want your world to be, so if you hate magic, then you can put it on the "low " setting.
Post by: TheFlame52 on April 10, 2016, 04:42:32 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 10, 2016, 04:45:42 pm
Tis a prototype friend, I have a feeling it will make more sense later on. Also as stated many times before people like magic that doesn't always work the way you expect it (including toady).
Also what if by "turn into plant" it means to turn into an ent type creature.
I think you are coming up with the worst possibilities and assuming that's what it means.
Yes, I am thinking things through to their worst possibilities, and considering their implications. That's called "forethought". It's clear I need to share it with some of you, because without considering and answering those implications, they will come to pass.
The thing I'm repeating again and again is that "magic that doesn't always work the way you expect it" almost invariably means "kills anyone who uses it" in this game. See my previous arguments on that subject.
And yes, it's a prototype, but only a prototype of throwing text strings together, not of an actual magic system. None of this nullifies my main point, which is that any sort of magical effect that requires anything more than "shoots a projectile at the bad guys that does bad stuff to them" requires orders of magnitude more time making the AI not kill itself with it than it takes to actually come up with the effect, itself.
Toady cannot introduce full-fledged doesn't-kill-anyone-who-uses-it magical effects at anything more than a once-a-month trickle for as long as he needs to write whole new chunks of AI to actually handle creatures using it even remotely intelligently. During which time, we as players will inevitably come up with more ways to abuse that magic safely (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113638.msg3467511#msg3467511) than it will actually threaten us with it's so-called "unpredictability".
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 10, 2016, 04:46:56 pm
All I want is to get a few dwarves to practice their <magic projectile> throwing for three years until they become unstoppable engines of destruction, is that too much to ask?
No, provided those are treated the same as globs or crossbows in the code, that's pretty much the one thing the game would handle quite well without needing to write new AI.
... PROVIDED it doesn't do something like "add nausea". Right now, "charge" attacks, like the ones that trolls or elephants use are suicidal specifically because the AI is not smart enough not to keep charging (which adds exhaustion) until they pass out, which is why it's currently possible for a naked adventurer to punch an elephant to death. Any dwarf that has a projectile attack that takes up blood or becomes nauseous will invariably start vomiting and exsanguinating themselves blithely when they have perfectly good crossbows and axes with which to attack before they vomit and bleed themselves to death.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 10, 2016, 04:48:32 pm
also about the plant.Tis a prototype friend, I have a feeling it will make more sense later on. Also as stated many times before people like magic that doesn't always work the way you expect it (including toady).
Also what if by "turn into plant" it means to turn into an ent type creature.
I think you are coming up with the worst possibilities and assuming that's what it means.
Yes, I am thinking things through to their worst possibilities, and considering their implications. That's called "forethought". It's clear I need to share it with some of you, because without considering and answering those implications, they will come to pass.
The thing I'm repeating again and again is that "magic that doesn't always work the way you expect it" almost invariably means "kills anyone who uses it" in this game. See my previous arguments on that subject.
And yes, it's a prototype, but only a prototype of throwing text strings together, not of an actual magic system. None of this nullifies my main point, which is that any sort of magical effect that requires anything more than "shoots a projectile at the bad guys that does bad stuff to them" requires orders of magnitude more time making the AI not kill itself with it than it takes to actually come up with the effect, itself.
Toady cannot introduce full-fledged doesn't-kill-anyone-who-uses-it magical effects at anything more than a once-a-month trickle for as long as he needs to write whole new chunks of AI to actually handle creatures using it even remotely intelligently. During which time, we as players will inevitably come up with more ways to abuse that magic safely (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113638.msg3467511#msg3467511) than it will actually threaten us with it's so-called "unpredictability".
Its turn into plant not "turn into fruit" aswell
It could be good for hiding in a forest.(so good for nature spirits) (im sure you could turn back whenever, And it will most definitely not be a single piece of fruit it will be an entire plant, it isn't called "turn into fruit" it is called "turn into plant"
Toady has done 2 year long release cycles before, just because it requires work doesnt mean its "unfeasible" If everyone used that as an argument adding alternate planes would never happen since that requires several months of work (and its in the plans), if toady thought this way the game wouldnt be as awesome as it is.Luckily he IS willing to do the work and the community has been shown to be willing to wait for it. Toady was able to add werebeasts (almost fully featured, with transformations, moon cycles etc) in one week, I doubt it would take months per effect, that is a very amusing exaggeration. (see df talks on the subject while he was working on it)
I'm fine with players learning how to abuse the system, thats part of dwarf fortress. aswell.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 10, 2016, 05:18:24 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 10, 2016, 05:19:59 pm
Yes, have your wizards turn themselves into food. And I thought drinking people in cages in mugs was enough. o3o
Thing is, that isnt what the spell was it was "turn into plant", which can be interpreted to mean many things. But it would be silly.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 10, 2016, 06:02:18 pm
Post by: Spish on April 10, 2016, 06:28:55 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 10, 2016, 07:23:57 pm
Anyway, I'm not going to respond to the rest of your arguments for at least a day or two so that I actually have time to respond to other people. Please stop posting the same things repeatedly to get my attention, I saw them the first time. It takes more time to respond to a one-sentence statement with no thought put into the consequence than it takes to write the novella of consequences that one-sentence statement would bring with it. If you want more overwrought responses to simple questions in the meantime, avail yourself of Randall Munroe's collection (https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/). His way of thinking is a good way of thinking if you want to understand the consequences of adding bizarre, arbitrary changes into the world.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 10, 2016, 07:57:09 pm
Anyway, I'm not going to respond to the rest of your arguments for at least a day or two so that I actually have time to respond to other people. Please stop posting the same things repeatedly to get my attention, I saw them the first time. It takes more time to respond to a one-sentence statement with no thought put into the consequence than it takes to write the novella of consequences that one-sentence statement would bring with it. If you want more overwrought responses to simple questions in the meantime, avail yourself of Randall Munroe's collection (https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/). His way of thinking is a good way of thinking if you want to understand the consequences of adding bizarre, arbitrary changes into the world.
Spoiler: My long winded response (click to show/hide)
I really don't appreciate you painting me as a loon for something I never even said and in fact explained why that wasn't what I meant already in great detail on the other thread .
Toady keep doing what you do! Everyone loves this myth generator i'm excited to see it in game.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 10, 2016, 09:14:12 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 10, 2016, 10:24:26 pm
-- Sudden image of projectile vomit hitting goblins as they pass through a seemingly ordinary grove of trees...
Post by: crazyabe on April 10, 2016, 10:44:58 pm
I actually think having my fishermen, hunters, herbalists and woodcutters be able to turn into trees when 300 goblins suddenly turn up might improve their life expectancy considerably.Just hope ALL your woodcutters Pick up that spell, Otherwise You may end up with Quite a few "Dwarf_Wood_Items".
-- Sudden image of projectile vomit hitting goblins as they pass through a seemingly ordinary grove of trees...
Post by: DG on April 11, 2016, 12:50:08 am
Does this work?
gdc talk (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Practices-in-Procedural)
It has the "free content" tag on it, so I'm vaguely optimistic it'll work for some people.
It's regarding the myth generator, but it gives hints on how Toady might approach adding magic. For instance, a force associated with shadows might give access to "douse flames" or "deepen shadows" spells or the ability to see in the dark. And as far as a chaotic side of magic, or a chance of failure, it seems that being interrupted or otherwise botching the attempt will make the spell itself fizzle and then potentially alter something in the spell caster, like making them lose their sense of self, or becoming more dream-like, whatever that is.
I think the brothers will come up with a list of spells and abilities, assign them relationships to spheres, and then the gods/beings/powers associated with the spheres will allow their followers to cast those spells. They will also come up with potential consequence of failure, and potential ways of casting (meditating, dancing, breaking a rune etc), and randomly assign it to the spells.
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on April 11, 2016, 01:10:07 am
Seems like there might be a bit too many of them...
What makes people become monster hunters and mercenaries?
A few questions more to do with "timeline".
What release might the mounts be more usable for combat?
Animal care really has been a useless skill so whats been stopping dwarfs from caring for animals?
Armor for animals how much armor could we cover of a dragon without immobilising it or would there be some special armor designs for animals that would be ideal to have it?
Post by: Max™ on April 11, 2016, 04:15:36 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 11, 2016, 05:35:50 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 11, 2016, 07:10:49 am
I'll admit that I've done a bit of TLDR in this thread lately, for which I apologize, but I'll link this in case anyone talking or wondering about magic hasn't seen it yet:Does this work?
gdc talk (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Practices-in-Procedural)
It has the "free content" tag on it, so I'm vaguely optimistic it'll work for some people.
It's regarding the myth generator, but it gives hints on how Toady might approach adding magic. For instance, a force associated with shadows might give access to "douse flames" or "deepen shadows" spells or the ability to see in the dark. And as far as a chaotic side of magic, or a chance of failure, it seems that being interrupted or otherwise botching the attempt will make the spell itself fizzle and then potentially alter something in the spell caster, like making them lose their sense of self, or becoming more dream-like, whatever that is.
I think the brothers will come up with a list of spells and abilities, assign them relationships to spheres, and then the gods/beings/powers associated with the spheres will allow their followers to cast those spells. They will also come up with potential consequence of failure, and potential ways of casting (meditating, dancing, breaking a rune etc), and randomly assign it to the spells.
That is how it seems. And I love it.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 11, 2016, 07:34:21 am
1. Does this means perpetual jobs stick around even if the previous attempt failed (Current example: The collect web job on repeat will be removed if someone happens to destroy a random piece of web the job happened to have selected for collection)? I'd prefer the answer to be "yes" of course.
2. A follow on question in case of a "yes" is whether jobs then would sit around waiting for conditions to allow them to complete before allocation, rather than generating cancellation spam? (basically a sanity check).
3. A third follow on question in case of a "yes" to the second one is whether these conditionally suspended jobs would act as suspended jobs do currently, or whether they would act as unallocated jobs do currently, i.e. whether they would just be passed by until "activated" by conditions being met, or would sit at the top of the queue blocking orders below them until fulfilled?
Post by: CharonM72 on April 11, 2016, 09:28:41 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 11, 2016, 10:51:18 am
I actually think having my fishermen, hunters, herbalists and woodcutters be able to turn into trees when 300 goblins suddenly turn up might improve their life expectancy considerably.
-- Sudden image of projectile vomit hitting goblins as they pass through a seemingly ordinary grove of trees...
The argument against this is when it comes down to situations like dragons,is it's a dumb idea to for example to turn into a plant when you are afraid of a dragon instead of running into a fortress, the dwarf would see dragon, freak out, turn into a plant and be charbroiled, that's an AI challenge that is difficult to beat without a lot of hard coding for specific events.
See nw I DO understand the difficulties
Post by: Egan_BW on April 11, 2016, 11:03:25 am
100% pedantry, doesn't actually have anything to do with your argument.
Post by: therahedwig on April 11, 2016, 12:31:24 pm
"04/06/2016 Toady One The 30 jobs per work order limit is gone. You can also set perpetual orders. It doesn't place more than one job per shop and instead of waiting to renew them it checks jobs on completion to see if they should stick around. ..." from the Download page.He mentions 'conditional workorders' seperately in the last paragraph as still upcoming, but no idea if those are defined differently. Regardless, anyone annoyed with micromanagement in DF is gonna love next release if conditional workorders make it in.
2. A follow on question in case of a "yes" is whether jobs then would sit around waiting for conditions to allow them to complete before allocation, rather than generating cancellation spam? (basically a sanity check).
As for my own question about magic, it wasn't answered, just hijacked by some people rambling about AI while all I was curious about is the deployment of these types of features over the course of the development...
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 11, 2016, 12:51:33 pm
- You see the enemy before they see you, so you can do it unseen; or
- The enemy is as stupid as they frequently are in computer games and decide that since they can no longer see you it was nothing and the new plant replacing you probably has been there all along; and
- The enemy isn't likely to set fire to the landscape any second because another target has presented itself (Untrustedlife above); and
- You don't turn into something the enemy (or local wildlife!) is interested in eating or make fire wood out of (unlikely wildlife would do this, though); and
- You don't transform in the path of the main enemy force and get trampled; and
- You can transform back; and
- You can control when to transform back so you don't do it when the scout that you saw has been replaced by the main army (point copied from elsewhere); and
- You can see/sense the surroundings so your controlled turning back doesn't land you in the middle of the enemy column anyway; and
- You have the sense to use this spell only when it is a better option than to run away, attack, or hide conventionally to sneak away (this condition is sometimes met by players, but considerably harder for an AI to meet, and thus really is the main point); and
...
@therahedwig: I agree work material availability is a basic condition, but since repeats are going to be included in the first round I think the question is relevant.
I interpret "conditional workorders" as things like "produce plant socks when stocks are below 20", or even better "produce plant socks when stocks of masterworks [plant socks optional criterion] are below 20", and "shift usage of pig tails from thread to booze when the stocks of [pig tail | plant | any] masterworks socks are above 20", and certainly something I'd definitely want: "shear shearable creature when available; spin hair when available; milk milkable animal when available; make cheese when stocks of same kind cheese is lower than milk".
Post by: Egan_BW on April 11, 2016, 12:59:29 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 11, 2016, 01:03:19 pm
Walking forward is an excellent way to get where you're going provided that you're facing the way you want to go, there are no obstacles in your way, you have legs, your feet aren't tied together, you don't walk off a cliff...
E pur si muove. o3o
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 11, 2016, 03:16:47 pm
"04/06/2016 Toady One The 30 jobs per work order limit is gone. You can also set perpetual orders. It doesn't place more than one job per shop and instead of waiting to renew them it checks jobs on completion to see if they should stick around. ..." from the Download page.He mentions 'conditional workorders' seperately in the last paragraph as still upcoming, but no idea if those are defined differently. Regardless, anyone annoyed with micromanagement in DF is gonna love next release if conditional workorders make it in.
2. A follow on question in case of a "yes" is whether jobs then would sit around waiting for conditions to allow them to complete before allocation, rather than generating cancellation spam? (basically a sanity check).
As for my own question about magic, it wasn't answered, just hijacked by some people rambling about AI while all I was curious about is the deployment of these types of features over the course of the development...
Yeah it got intense there for awhile
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 11, 2016, 09:40:59 pm
Walking forward is an excellent way to get where you're going provided that you're facing the way you want to go, there are no obstacles in your way, you have legs, your feet aren't tied together, you don't walk off a cliff...
The difference is that Toady has already coded the ability to walk. Toady tends to take a lot longer to code in new AI to figure out much more complex tasks, like "recognizing when you are burning to death in a fire", and has yet to code his AI to "recognize you are exerting yourself into a coma and your last 8 charge attacks didn't do any good anyway", resulting in the hilarious sight of creatures like elephants and trolls charging until they collapse from exhaustion.
In 0.40.24, I saw a giant olm, a toothless creature half the size of a troll eventually gum a troll to death in a battle that lasted about a year because the troll would repeatedly ram the olm until collapsing from exhaustion, while the olm ineffectually pawed with clawless limbs and tried to nibble the troll to death. (The troll eventually bled to death from an eye wound.)
The same really goes for how a GCS will only attack the head, rendering a dwarf unarmored but for a copper helmet invincible. Because that's what the AI tells it to do, that's what it does.
The list of basic conditions that seems so stupid and obvious? Those are not conditions the AI is capable of judging for itself right now, just the same as the AI wasn't capable of recognizing fire was bad for years, or that suicidal attacks are bad now. Programming AI it detailed, difficult, easily stymied by the slightest mistake, and time-consuming.
Compared to all these things, a judgement call as to whether running or turning into a plant is an extremely nuanced decision, one that defies a direct, clear-cut answer. (Unless there is no reversal of a plant transformation, in which case the answer is "never use this unless you want to commit suicide" as a tantrum alternative or maybe a religious fanaticism from elves thing. And again, judging by Toady's other spells, there's zero guarantee that it's "game balanced" or "sane to use".)
Post by: KillzEmAllGod on April 11, 2016, 10:34:19 pm
However the overall AI for something like a siege won't be done till he gets to the military rework which sounds like it would be around the same time as economy.
People really have been doing the turn into plant ability to death.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 12, 2016, 04:21:34 am
Combat styles sounds like it'll fix the ai when it comes to stupid combat at least for attacks.Combat styles will probably involves an AI that is capable of using those styles in a (sort of) reasonable fashion, but that doesn't guarantee procedurally generated magic abilities are automatically balanced as well (although one might hope they will be dealt with as well).
However the overall AI for something like a siege won't be done till he gets to the military rework which sounds like it would be around the same time as economy.
People really have been doing the turn into plant ability to death.
And turning into a plant CAN be lethal, as discussed ;)
In addition, it's used as an example of why magic abilities that aren't directly combat oriented, and without complicated side effect cause complications. You might take the existing size change magic (as present in were creatures) and discuss the complications of figuring out when it's a good idea to use it and when it's a really stupid one instead, assuming the spell comes under NPC control. Or, summon water to douse flames: How do I ensure the dorf doesn't use it while standing where the water will flow and drown? How will I stop dorfs from putting out fires deliberately started? And even worse, a spell generating fire in the hand of an NPC that is supposed to be allied with other NPCs that aren't fire proof? A fire spell AND a water generation spell present at the same time?
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 12, 2016, 06:15:20 am
Combat styles sounds like it'll fix the ai when it comes to stupid combat at least for attacks.Combat styles will probably involves an AI that is capable of using those styles in a (sort of) reasonable fashion, but that doesn't guarantee procedurally generated magic abilities are automatically balanced as well (although one might hope they will be dealt with as well).
However the overall AI for something like a siege won't be done till he gets to the military rework which sounds like it would be around the same time as economy.
People really have been doing the turn into plant ability to death.
And turning into a plant CAN be lethal, as discussed ;)
In addition, it's used as an example of why magic abilities that aren't directly combat oriented, and without complicated side effect cause complications. You might take the existing size change magic (as present in were creatures) and discuss the complications of figuring out when it's a good idea to use it and when it's a really stupid one instead, assuming the spell comes under NPC control. Or, summon water to douse flames: How do I ensure the dorf doesn't use it while standing where the water will flow and drown? How will I stop dorfs from putting out fires deliberately started? And even worse, a spell generating fire in the hand of an NPC that is supposed to be allied with other NPCs that aren't fire proof? A fire spell AND a water generation spell present at the same time?
how about this
Hey toady how do you plan to handle the obvious AI implications of some spells, such as douse flames, summon water and change into plant, people have been arguing with each other over this stuff for the past few days nonstop, i'm sure you have thought of this, so can you elaborate as to how you will handle it?
there now we will all know at the end of the month.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 12, 2016, 07:09:41 am
:Hmpf! Next you're going to tell us to find a horse and count its teeth rather than discuss the number in a calm, rational way! ;)
how about this
Hey toady how do you plan to handle the obvious AI implications of some spells, such as douse flames, summon water and change into plant, people have been arguing with each other over this stuff for the past few days nonstop, i'm sure you have thought of this, so can you elaborate as to how you will handle it?
there now we will all know at the end of the month.
(As far as I understand, the fool who came with that proposals to the monks discussing that issue received a sound beating for his insolence).
Good call!
Post by: Dirst on April 12, 2016, 10:15:00 am
Hmpf! Next you're going to tell us to find a horse and count its teeth rather than discuss the number in a calm, rational way! ;)Why wait that long? There are zero horses in my room, and zero horse teeth. Obviously there is a one-to-one correspondence, and each horse has one tooth.
Looking forward to hear what Toady's thoughts on the main conversation.
Post by: ZM5 on April 12, 2016, 11:42:00 am
You get into their room, turn into food on their table, they eat you, then in the midst of it you transform back and rip them open from the inside, then you make your getaway.
Kind of like some Mortal Kombat fatalities, come to think of it.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 12, 2016, 12:25:55 pm
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on April 12, 2016, 01:21:52 pm
THIS IS GETTING TOO CLOSE TO VORE FOR MY LIKING
AND I'M SURE TOADY AGREES
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 12, 2016, 01:59:22 pm
Post by: Max™ on April 12, 2016, 04:59:18 pm
OKAY LET'S STOP THIS NOWYou better watch out, you're looking very... drinkable.
THIS IS GETTING TOO CLOSE TO VORE FOR MY LIKING
AND I'M SURE TOADY AGREES
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 12, 2016, 06:27:38 pm
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on April 12, 2016, 07:48:13 pm
The hell?! this is the FotF thread! If this gets locked... no one ever knows what's going to happen!
Okay, seriously, we should stop the derails, derpdragon.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 12, 2016, 07:53:28 pm
Post by: therahedwig on April 13, 2016, 03:03:49 pm
My main one would be 'if plump helmet > 10, brew', because I always lose track of the still.
Post by: ZM5 on April 13, 2016, 03:16:38 pm
Post by: Chevaleresse on April 13, 2016, 03:51:29 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on April 13, 2016, 09:07:24 pm
Post by: Dirst on April 13, 2016, 10:07:08 pm
Right now, civs can live on past their expiration date in the form of refugees living in camps and abandoned sites. Will civs ever hunt down and kill enemy refugees? What about bandits?You can always make a Starting Seven and a couple migrant waves appear out of thin air by embarking in the dead civ's name.
Will a civ ever be "dead enough" that it will no longer be an option at embark, but still appear in Legends? Can a later group, which may or may not have any blood relation to the members of the dead civ, claim to "re-establish" that civ in the context of cutting ties with its real parent civ?
Post by: LordBaal on April 14, 2016, 05:16:09 am
Post by: decev on April 14, 2016, 03:49:30 pm
I hope you get back to normal quickly Toady. Do the orders have something like always keep 100 booze on stock, or 30 in this stockpile, and 70 in that other?The stockpile part sounds complicated, UI-wise. You can achieve almost the same thing by having a small stockpile take from your large stockpile.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 14, 2016, 08:43:51 pm
Ok... different topic: What kind of conditional workorders are YOU gonna set up every time you start a new fortress once this function gets in?
My main one would be 'if plump helmet > 10, brew', because I always lose track of the still.
Having played both with the DF Hack plugin for workflow and Gnomoria, which has this feature, the simple answer would be "every single order". (Gnomoria has the additional tasty goodness of "auto-order required intermediary products".)
There's basically no reason not to use it for everything. Order at least X coffins on hand, keep X roasts around, have X steel bolts ready for use, keep X chairs and table and beds around, etc.
There really isn't anything in DF that you need running round-the-clock, and un-binnable furniture in particular clogs the stockpiles. (Even quantum stockpiling, the additional wasted labor isn't helping anything.)
Post by: Putnam on April 14, 2016, 08:56:48 pm
Post by: Spish on April 14, 2016, 11:01:24 pm
Edit: Ahh, now I see. So I've been out of the loop for a while and was just testing the taverns for the first time, and apparently it doesn't pay to be lazy and throw up a 1x1 lounge . 1x2 and up there are no issues, leaving no room for festivities is rather problematic it would seem. Worth making a bug report?
Post by: Egan_BW on April 15, 2016, 08:48:57 am
Post by: LordBaal on April 15, 2016, 03:29:56 pm
Worth making a bug report?It is intended that every tavern must have such areas? If it is then no report is needed, if not then I guess it's simple a bug.
Personally I would think not every tavern is a The Snuggly Duckling, Prancing Pony or The Whore's Nipple Bar&Grill. Some might be the Swine Face taverns type where the only activity besides drinking is to die gruesomely.
Post by: Spish on April 15, 2016, 06:44:58 pm
Post by: Dirst on April 15, 2016, 08:43:04 pm
I don't think most people even think to create 1x1 meeting areas, I guess I'm just lazy like that.Oh come on, it's an entire tile. Your dorfs should be thankful they get so much!
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 15, 2016, 08:54:05 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 15, 2016, 09:56:43 pm
Individual spaces for training dogs are literally the only instances I can think of where I use 1x1 zones. :V
I use them to keep male livestock that don't need to graze, like boars or ganders in place next to the female animals, also in 1x1 "pastures". I also use 1x1 pastures for "watch poults" to serve as lookouts and/or bait on the ramparts or cavern entrances. (Surrounded, naturally, by GCS-webbed cage traps...)
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 15, 2016, 11:53:51 pm
Post by: Mr S on April 16, 2016, 09:06:06 pm
Post by: Spish on April 16, 2016, 09:17:21 pm
Post by: Dirst on April 16, 2016, 09:23:04 pm
Now that I've further tested out the new taverns, it seems I don't get visitors anymore. Before they would show up the instant I made a tavern zone, this time I've been waiting several years and I still haven't had a single one. And this one's actually a pretty snazzy establishment. What could be causing this?You need solid SEO and social media campaigns to get these things off the ground.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 16, 2016, 10:00:07 pm
Ah right, I forgot. I use them also individually for keeping annoying pets safely away from the outside world. Again, all pasture-related. o3o
Actually, "dumping zone" is a good one, as well. Provided it's next to a hole, I use that one for dumps into an atom smasher/magma sea.
I also use 1x1 pit/pond when I want to limit the amount of dwarves that will come running to fill a pond.
Anything larger than 1x1 is unnecessary for sand collection or clay collection.
1x1 fishing zones are also reasonable if you want to micromanage where your dwarf sits when they fish...
Honestly, about half the zones have some reasonable use at 1x1.
Post by: Spish on April 17, 2016, 02:24:41 am
Now that I've further tested out the new taverns, it seems I don't get visitors anymore. Before they would show up the instant I made a tavern zone, this time I've been waiting several years and I still haven't had a single one. And this one's actually a pretty snazzy establishment. What could be causing this?Holy hell, so I can confirm that embarking next to an ocean (any ocean) prevents you from being able to get visitors. Like, at all. This is terrible, how has no one else caught this yet?
I was able to get around it by embarking in an area with 2 land biomes in addition to the ocean. It seems that if more than one border of the minimap shows a column/row of ocean tiles then you can't get visitors. Weird. You can still get migrants and all that jazz.
Behold!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I guess I'll make a bug report later.
Post by: Inarius on April 17, 2016, 04:14:10 am
Hope your brother, cat and illness are going well.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 17, 2016, 04:21:19 am
Are you sure it's ocean related, rather than a coincidence? Neighboring civs seem to have to reach some size (300+?) before they have enough people to wander around the world. I've seen a total of 1 visitor over half a dozen pocket worlds, but all those worlds have goblins flourishing and everyone else just hanging on. Removing a tavern object (i.e. the named thing, not the zone(s) associated with it) screws up any visitors on the map who came to visit it, and might possibly (pure speculation) screw up future visits as well.
Now, if you've embarked several times in the same world from the same initial pristine world generation save and can see a pattern where the ocean embarks consistently fail to get visitors while neighboring non ocean ones do, that would be fairly convincing, especially if the visited neighbors were further away from other civs than the ocean bordering ones. Note that sequential embarks won't do, since it seems civs have a tendency to collapse (due to rampant warfare exploding on embark [well, probably the transition from world generation to active world] as well as unknown factors leaving large number of sites inhabited but unaligned to civs), so civs healthy on your first embark might no longer be healthy on the next one(s).
Post by: Spish on April 17, 2016, 10:48:49 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 17, 2016, 01:22:23 pm
Post by: vlademir1 on April 17, 2016, 02:00:52 pm
Do you have plans to (someday) add a way for the community to script the game using an embedded language?I'd personally imagine not. Typically adding in a scripting language to an existing project becomes a massive pain of refactoring, and for something of the scope and complexity of DF it'd likely be a massive nightmare.
I always thought it was weird how humans had "law-givers" instead of kings or queens - that seems like a name a really primitive race would give their leader - like even more primitive than goblins.It's a common enough title in human history in our own reality, typically given to leaders who historically clarified and/or unified an existing system of laws in a long lasting manner. Suleiman I of the Ottoman Empire is probably the best known example for his role in taking existing precedent from the legal decisions of preceding Ottoman sultans (who were rulers in the "his word is law" style) and using them to create a full proper legal code that lasted hundreds of years and still has influences in the existing backbone of civic laws in the regions that were at one time part of the Ottoman Empire.
Post by: Putnam on April 17, 2016, 05:18:42 pm
Do you have plans to (someday) add a way for the community to script the game using an embedded language?I'd personally imagine not. Typically adding in a scripting language to an existing project becomes a massive pain of refactoring, and for something of the scope and complexity of DF it'd likely be a massive nightmare.
Here's a thing he said in an interview i did a while back for college:
Quote from: Putnam2. What do you think about the text raws system of content generation and presentation?2. I guess it's easier to mod, but it should probably be an accepted scripting language instead. The brackets are weird and cumbersome.
He's also said stuff about the "ghosts of dead programmers demanding a proper scripting language" or something along those lines.
So yeah, it's definitely not a "definitely not" situation.
Post by: Dirst on April 17, 2016, 05:50:52 pm
Post by: Putnam on April 17, 2016, 05:58:12 pm
Post by: Dirst on April 17, 2016, 06:12:33 pm
c++ isn't even a scripting language lol, much less a friendly one(http://i.imgur.com/93O5Abp.jpg)
Post by: LordBaal on April 17, 2016, 07:17:33 pm
Post by: Max™ on April 17, 2016, 09:37:47 pm
And a Happy Birthday , Toady !Well, hopefully the illness is not doing well, send those bacterial invaders to the arena and release the magma!
Hope your brother, cat and illness are going well.
This seems obvious looking back but I can't confirm it as an absolute rule: do bandits only mug citizens in an area with/around a well?
Post by: TheFlame52 on April 18, 2016, 02:23:58 pm
Post by: Ezekhiel2517 on April 18, 2016, 06:06:13 pm
Post by: Imic on April 19, 2016, 07:19:36 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 19, 2016, 11:30:44 am
Could we make elves slightly less useless? Let them forge magic weapons? Or maybe make them innatley attatched to bowmanship?
But they aren't useless. They're great for feeding dragons. :V
Or to be more serious, in fortress mode at least they're better as trading partners than as Fun opponents, as they do at least bring cloth (which is an annoyance to produce in quantity). Meanwhile in adventure mode, playing as one is an interesting give-and-take in that wildlife ignore you, but your starting gear is complete shit. Though the lack of a waterskin (no leather) will cause problems.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 19, 2016, 12:00:40 pm
Elves in worldgen are interesting in that they're the "zerg rush race".
Elves in fortress mode (petitioned for citizenship, that is) are interesting in that they're naturally friendly with wild animals, which makes them good animal trappers and tamers. Just make sure elves are alone when they might accidentally let that tiger loose, or they're the only one in the burrow to go set that cage trap right in front of a hungry tiger...
They used to be much more interesting, however, as they had a natural speed bonus that was much more significant and useful.
Since Threetoe's stories always showed elves having magic, though, I suspect that elves will eventually have some sort of druid magic available to them, if only some sort of tree-shaping spell, which makes them less of a lemming horde. I doubt there will be mass-produced magic wood swords capable of going up against steel, however, for reasons already mentioned repeatedly in this thread. Instead, I suspect it would be more like "Hear me, oh nice mr. apple tree! Hold that dwarf down while our tiger allies maul him!" (At which point, is triggered the dwarven AI for climbing up a tree, getting them stuck and unable to respond to tiger attacks...)
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 19, 2016, 12:24:47 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 19, 2016, 12:46:58 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 19, 2016, 01:00:21 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 19, 2016, 01:17:37 pm
- Underwear (the other source being "visitors" in the form of goblins and black towers. Many actual visitors are currently naked...).
- Exotic tame animals (not dragons, hydrae, or rocs, alas)
- Fruit (to round out your impressive booze cabinet contents)
They also provide the valuable garbage truck service of hauling off worn masterworks clothing (unless you're playing 0.42.06) and inferior quality goods (they can't haul off too much stone furniture, though, due to their lack of wagons).
Oddly enough, elves bring both woven and grown cloth items, but no bags, seeds (which require bags), or berries, and their grown barrels are always empty.
And I find cloth production to actually require less work on my part than selecting all that cloth from caravans...and I suspect it will be even less work with the Manager updates.
Post by: Max™ on April 19, 2016, 07:53:42 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 19, 2016, 08:21:48 pm
I forget people didn't add the necessary use plant product lines and brewing reactions to elves, but doing so is required for their taverns to function and have booze, and I assume for them to bring it with caravans.
I could've sworn that they had those reactions though. o.O
EDIT: Double-checked, it seems they don't. Since they used to bring booze, I can't tell if that was a slip-up from when Toady un-hardcoded brewing, or if he intends for elves to be sober.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 19, 2016, 08:42:16 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 19, 2016, 08:55:48 pm
Would be nice if we had drinks that dwarves could drink and regard as better than right out of the well, but inferior happiness-wise to getting drunk. Plus it would be balanced by not sating their alcoholism.
Post by: Max™ on April 19, 2016, 09:56:47 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 19, 2016, 10:11:04 pm
Post by: Spish on April 20, 2016, 12:38:19 am
Elves in fortress mode (petitioned for citizenship, that is) are interesting in that they're naturally friendly with wild animals, which makes them good animal trappers and tamers. Just make sure elves are alone when they might accidentally let that tiger loose, or they're the only one in the burrow to go set that cage trap right in front of a hungry tiger...Wait, can you actually get outsiders that do those things? I'm new at this whole visitor thing and so far I'm a bit bothered by how everyone I've seen is either a soldier, entertainer, or nerd.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 20, 2016, 12:53:34 am
Elves in fortress mode (petitioned for citizenship, that is) are interesting in that they're naturally friendly with wild animals, which makes them good animal trappers and tamers. Just make sure elves are alone when they might accidentally let that tiger loose, or they're the only one in the burrow to go set that cage trap right in front of a hungry tiger...Wait, can you actually get outsiders that do those things? I'm new at this whole visitor thing and so far I'm a bit bothered by how everyone I've seen is either a soldier, entertainer, or nerd.
They can eventually petition to become full citizens after they've been long-term residents for long enough. So that means not only are common "just here to chill out" visitors not going to be useful, the ones that start off by asking to stay as a resident need time to ask for citizenship.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 20, 2016, 04:31:14 am
There are supposed to be monster hunters as well, but they're either AWOL or very rare. Mercenaries do never petition to become citizens, as far as I understand, but entertainers do, and I think scientists do as well. When they've become full citizens (i.e. after two accepted petitions), they're full citizens you can order around just as you do with your dorfs, assign jobs, assign to all military positions (including squad leader), etc, so you accept entertainers and eventually get smiths, militia, and strands extractors out of them (somewhat deceitful recruiting tactics if you ask me, but there is nobody coming to the fortress to petition to work as a hauler (or actual craft) while waiting for the time to petition for citizenship and a real job).Elves in fortress mode (petitioned for citizenship, that is) are interesting in that they're naturally friendly with wild animals, which makes them good animal trappers and tamers. Just make sure elves are alone when they might accidentally let that tiger loose, or they're the only one in the burrow to go set that cage trap right in front of a hungry tiger...Wait, can you actually get outsiders that do those things? I'm new at this whole visitor thing and so far I'm a bit bothered by how everyone I've seen is either a soldier, entertainer, or nerd.
They can eventually petition to become full citizens after they've been long-term residents for long enough. So that means not only are common "just here to chill out" visitors not going to be useful, the ones that start off by asking to stay as a resident need time to ask for citizenship.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 20, 2016, 09:10:24 am
so you accept entertainers and eventually get smiths, militia, and strands extractors out of them (somewhat deceitful recruiting tactics if you ask me, but there is nobody coming to the fortress to petition to work as a hauler (or actual craft) while waiting for the time to petition for citizenship and a real job).
Of course that's how it is. Oh, those ferner elves always come in here saying they'll "do the jobs dwarves don't want to do" like picking outdoor fruit or outdoor fishing or hauling, but next thing you know, BAM!, they're taking hard-working dwarves' jobs at magma forges run by three generations of dwarves!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 20, 2016, 09:17:17 am
I don't do outdoor fruit picking because I can't limit the amount to something reasonable (a single tree of each kind is far too much). I do consider sending a picking expedition out every 5 years or so...
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 20, 2016, 10:17:18 am
Post by: pikachu17 on April 20, 2016, 11:00:36 am
Post by: Bumber on April 20, 2016, 12:56:37 pm
Mercenaries do never petition to become citizens, as far as I understand...
For some reason, my visiting scholars never want to petition residency for my fort, despite the fact that it's the only one in the world left with a standing library.
Post by: Dirst on April 20, 2016, 01:10:20 pm
Ah, playing Adventurer and Fort in the same world, eh? ;)Mercenaries do never petition to become citizens, as far as I understand...I'm pretty sure they do.
For some reason, my visiting scholars never want to petition residency for my fort, despite the fact that it's the only one in the world left with a standing library.
Post by: Bumber on April 20, 2016, 01:13:41 pm
Nope. Megabeasts and goblins. They didn't survive world gen.Ah, playing Adventurer and Fort in the same world, eh? ;)Mercenaries do never petition to become citizens, as far as I understand...I'm pretty sure they do.
For some reason, my visiting scholars never want to petition residency for my fort, despite the fact that it's the only one in the world left with a standing library.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 20, 2016, 01:24:40 pm
I believe forum discussions have indicated mercs don't petition to become citizens, but I'll be happy to be proven wrong. I have a fortress (0.42.05) with 10 long term merc, 5(?) years since the first one petitioned for residence. Since then a fair number of performers have applied both for residence and later for citizenship, including two performance troupes. I do have a merc resident couple (merc 10 is the spouse of one of the earlier ones) that has produced kids, however, and I also have a scholar who's petitioned for residence (sufficiently late that citizenship isn't due for a while). Another scholar who stayed for a lot of years without applying for residence (apparently) left shortly before her performer spouse applied for residence, and his room lists both his and her name.Mercenaries do never petition to become citizens, as far as I understand...I'm pretty sure they do.
For some reason, my visiting scholars never want to petition residency for my fort, despite the fact that it's the only one in the world left with a standing library.
Post by: Bumber on April 20, 2016, 06:39:54 pm
I believe forum discussions have indicated mercs don't petition to become citizens, but I'll be happy to be proven wrong. I have a fortress (0.42.05) with 10 long term merc, 5(?) years since the first one petitioned for residence. Since then a fair number of performers have applied both for residence and later for citizenship, including two performance troupes. I do have a merc resident couple (merc 10 is the spouse of one of the earlier ones) that has produced kids, however, and I also have a scholar who's petitioned for residence (sufficiently late that citizenship isn't due for a while). Another scholar who stayed for a lot of years without applying for residence (apparently) left shortly before her performer spouse applied for residence, and his room lists both his and her name.Nevermind. It was just a dancer with spear skills who I had recruited into my merc squad.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 21, 2016, 10:19:43 pm
Are these 'test species' before you let everything intelligent civilise, or is there a "lore" reason? Like you see Gorlaks as far more likely to civilise than, say, trolls, gremlins or gnomes?
Post by: ZM5 on April 22, 2016, 04:02:59 am
Regarding civilising, besides animal-men, why gorlaks and plump helmet men?One of the reasons dwarves can like gorlaks is for providing "stimulating conversation" - they're also tagged as BENIGN in the raws, so they're probably helpful underground dwellers, which would make them more likely to civilise than something like a troll or gnome (both of which can't even speak - gnomes atleast have intelligence on par with humans or dwarves, trolls are just big oafs) or a gremlin (they're troublemakers and tricksters by nature so realistically most races probably wouldn't take to them too well).
Are these 'test species' before you let everything intelligent civilise, or is there a "lore" reason? Like you see Gorlaks as far more likely to civilise than, say, trolls, gremlins or gnomes?
No idea about plump helmet men, I guess since dwarves like plump helmets so much they'd also like the sentient version of them - they're also benign like the gorlaks so I'm guessing that helps.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 22, 2016, 04:21:11 am
Gremlins can join your fortress as citizens if you capture and train them. After being in the fortress for a fair number of years they can/will petition for citizenship (without going via residency). Unfortunately, gremlins remain "animals" after becoming citizens, and require regular retraining, which is a royal pain since they stop coming to training sessions to a large extent (lower priority task than hauling, not to mention the bugged "interruptible" needs activities). I work around that by hacking them to be fully tame when becoming citizens. The forum reports animal people behave the same when caught and trained if tagged as exotic pets.Regarding civilising, besides animal-men, why gorlaks and plump helmet men?One of the reasons dwarves can like gorlaks is for providing "stimulating conversation" - they're also tagged as BENIGN in the raws, so they're probably helpful underground dwellers, which would make them more likely to civilise than something like a troll or gnome (both of which can't even speak - gnomes atleast have intelligence on par with humans or dwarves, trolls are just big oafs) or a gremlin (they're troublemakers and tricksters by nature so realistically most races probably wouldn't take to them too well).
Are these 'test species' before you let everything intelligent civilise, or is there a "lore" reason? Like you see Gorlaks as far more likely to civilise than, say, trolls, gremlins or gnomes?
No idea about plump helmet men, I guess since dwarves like plump helmets so much they'd also like the sentient version of them - they're also benign like the gorlaks so I'm guessing that helps.
Post by: ZM5 on April 22, 2016, 05:45:31 am
Also seems like if you have a civ that starts with trolls or similar creatures that can learn skills but cant speak, if you have them with your fort from the start they'll do some jobs, like hauling (though I notice they glitch out and perpetually "haul" an object without dropping it on the stockpile - they'll still use other objects if you draft them into the military, for some reason) - only way to turn it off and set other labors is with Dwarf Therapist - in-game they're classified as livestock but Therapist sees them as citizens. However, ones that you buy from a caravan later don't count into this and don't do anything at all as far as I'm aware, on top of that you can't set labors for them even with the Therapist, even though it still sees them as citizens.
On the other hand creatures that are "wild" but can speak on top of being able to learn seem to be classified as livestock if you buy them from merchants later, but are full-fledged fort citizens if you start with them by default - you can assign them labors as normal and they'll do them. Not sure why that is.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 22, 2016, 07:57:43 am
I'm aware, I was playing as a modded race and one of the migrants came with a gremlin hunter "pet".In principle it should be possible for an unmodded migrant from one of your previous fortresses to bring a gremlin hunter pet, provided you can assign them as pets, which I haven't tried to do.
Also seems like if you have a civ that starts with trolls or similar creatures that can learn skills but cant speak, if you have them with your fort from the start they'll do some jobs, like hauling (though I notice they glitch out and perpetually "haul" an object without dropping it on the stockpile - they'll still use other objects if you draft them into the military, for some reason) - only way to turn it off and set other labors is with Dwarf Therapist - in-game they're classified as livestock but Therapist sees them as citizens. However, ones that you buy from a caravan later don't count into this and don't do anything at all as far as I'm aware, on top of that you can't set labors for them even with the Therapist, even though it still sees them as citizens.
On the other hand creatures that are "wild" but can speak on top of being able to learn seem to be classified as livestock if you buy them from merchants later, but are full-fledged fort citizens if you start with them by default - you can assign them labors as normal and they'll do them. Not sure why that is.
A fair bit of what you say seems to be based on modding creatures, and that may or may not work. As far as I understand, sapients can not be traded unless you mod that in. Animal people basically come in two flavors: wild "animals" you can't do anything with, and members of other civs that are normal civilized members of those civs, and, as such, should be able to join your fortress as well if they visit and petition (I've never had any visit).
Gremlins do random jobs (like children, but more frequently) while in the "animal" phase and can't be given jobs with DT (normally, the cheat override might let you do that), but DT can give them professions when they become citizens. In general, gremlins are an oddity systems wise as they're really too intelligent to be animals, and slavery is forbidden for dwarves. I assume this wart will somehow be addressed eventually, either with a system that handles both gremlins and wild animal people (etc.) the same and provides for a path to full, non animal, citizenship, of by getting rid of gremlins as citizens (which I think would be a shame). Trained gremlins do not engage in mischief, although there is a bug which causes doors they pass through to become "captured by an invader", which is annoying if you want to lock them, to keep eggs from being collected, for instance.
Trolls and other slow learners can't become citizens, but goblins make use of trolls (and ogres, I believe) as something between slaves and livestock. Trolls are sheared for wool, for instance, but they can also receive weapon training and attack your fortress as weapons wielders (but I haven't seen them using armor, at least not metal armor). Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if they could be used has haulers as well in goblin civs. Most trolls in a siege tend to be unarmed, but you sometimes get goblin/human/dwarf/elf recruits who are unarmed as well so it's not exclusively a slave thing.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 22, 2016, 08:26:00 am
If you mod them to be the size of goblins do they come with armour (meaning the weapon weilding, non-naked trolls of course)?
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 22, 2016, 09:38:29 am
How big are trolls? Maybe they don't have metal armour because goblin AI hasn't figured out how to size armour for trolls yet.
If you mod them to be the size of goblins do they come with armour (meaning the weapon weilding, non-naked trolls of course)?
250,000 cm3, roughly halfway between the size of a lion and a donkey, and half the size of a horse (which historically, has been armored).
They are significantly (roughly four times) larger than goblins, but I'm willing to bet it has more to do with trolls giving birth in massive quantities, not being so bright or full-fledged members of society, and therefore being roughly socially valued on par with war dogs - not worth the price of armoring less than the size. Horses had value and were armored in spite of being larger, after all...
Post by: ZM5 on April 22, 2016, 10:14:07 am
In principle it should be possible for an unmodded migrant from one of your previous fortresses to bring a gremlin hunter pet, provided you can assign them as pets, which I haven't tried to do.Gremlins do have PET_EXOTIC in their tokens, so I they are tradeable - though very rarely, I've only seen one pop up in a merchants caravan. Trolls and ogres don't have pet tags and neither does the modded creature I was talking about earlier, so they won't show up in caravans but they still seem to appear as migrants - I haven't gotten my modded creature to appear as a migrant yet, so I have no idea what they'd be treated as, since they don't have pet tags but are intelligent.
A fair bit of what you say seems to be based on modding creatures, and that may or may not work. As far as I understand, sapients can not be traded unless you mod that in. Animal people basically come in two flavors: wild "animals" you can't do anything with, and members of other civs that are normal civilized members of those civs, and, as such, should be able to join your fortress as well if they visit and petition (I've never had any visit).
Gremlins do random jobs (like children, but more frequently) while in the "animal" phase and can't be given jobs with DT (normally, the cheat override might let you do that), but DT can give them professions when they become citizens. In general, gremlins are an oddity systems wise as they're really too intelligent to be animals, and slavery is forbidden for dwarves. I assume this wart will somehow be addressed eventually, either with a system that handles both gremlins and wild animal people (etc.) the same and provides for a path to full, non animal, citizenship, of by getting rid of gremlins as citizens (which I think would be a shame). Trained gremlins do not engage in mischief, although there is a bug which causes doors they pass through to become "captured by an invader", which is annoying if you want to lock them, to keep eggs from being collected, for instance.
Trolls and other slow learners can't become citizens, but goblins make use of trolls (and ogres, I believe) as something between slaves and livestock. Trolls are sheared for wool, for instance, but they can also receive weapon training and attack your fortress as weapons wielders (but I haven't seen them using armor, at least not metal armor). Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if they could be used has haulers as well in goblin civs. Most trolls in a siege tend to be unarmed, but you sometimes get goblin/human/dwarf/elf recruits who are unarmed as well so it's not exclusively a slave thing.
Regarding animal people, I'm fairly sure I heard reports of players finding and buying animal people from caravans, although again it seems like you can't make them do anything even with DT.
250,000 cm3, roughly halfway between the size of a lion and a donkey, and half the size of a horse (which historically, has been armored).I don't entirely get it, why would a troll be only half the cubic size of a horse? I'd imagine they're much taller than a horse, but I don't see where all the extra size for the horse comes from.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 22, 2016, 10:24:30 am
As for why gorlaks and plump helmet men can join civs, I assume there is some specific combination of tokens that determines eligibility, but it also seems to occur in worldgen based off what wild populations are in contact with civilizations. Trolls might or not not also be affected by their having the EVIL token, which is what allows goblins to have tons of them (and, combined with underground depth of 1, is why they are the only pets available on embark if you mod goblins to be playable).
Post by: Button on April 22, 2016, 10:28:30 am
Regarding animal people, I'm fairly sure I heard reports of players finding and buying animal people from caravans, although again it seems like you can't make them do anything even with DT.
Only if you mod them PET or PET_EXOTIC; and only from the elves. Imported (Tame) animal people will claim rooms in your inn but as far as I can tell will never petition for citizenship.
Post by: ZM5 on April 22, 2016, 10:46:21 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 22, 2016, 10:55:40 am
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 22, 2016, 10:57:11 am
I don't entirely get it, why would a troll be only half the cubic size of a horse? I'd imagine they're much taller than a horse, but I don't see where all the extra size for the horse comes from.
I'm not sure what you mean. Presumably, for the same reason that a lion or a donkey is much smaller than a horse, that's just the size they evolved (or were unnaturally selected) to be.
Size in this game roughly correlates to mass, since 1,000 cm3 (or, for ease of accounting, 1 dm3) = 1 kg due to how most organic materials have their densities set. Hence, it's likely Toady set animal sizes1 by looking up average masses.
Wild horses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przewalski's_horse) seem to have a size more like 300kg/300dm3, and so do "light riding horses", but Toady is apparently going for "large riding horses", which can be 500 to 600 kg, while "draft horses" can go as high as 1000 kg. This correlates roughly to an Andalusian (Spanish) horse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_horse). (Meaning the "average" DF horse is actually still half the size of a clydesdale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clydesdale_horse). This also makes them poor candidates for armored chargers, as those were larger, stronger draft breeds to be able to carry the added weight of armor and an armored rider.)
1 - Note that in DF, "average" size and mass are often biased towards the larger and heavier side of things, because muscle and fat mass added on by stats seem to be added on top of the average mass, resulting in dwarves, with a supposed 60 dm3 having an actual average size of roughly 75 dm3.2
2 - Note that 75kg dwarves are more massive than the "average" human, while dwarves are "too small" to wear clothes fit for a human of 70kg, but can wear 60kg dwarf clothes no matter how massive they get. Clothes are a really weird thing...
Post by: ZM5 on April 22, 2016, 11:11:29 am
I'm not sure what you mean. Presumably, for the same reason that a lion or a donkey is much smaller than a horse, that's just the size they evolved (or were unnaturally selected) to be.Oh, that does make sense - I wasn't really aware of the larger horse breeds tbh and was wondering how a troll would actually be less dense and have less mass than a horse.
Size in this game roughly correlates to mass, since 1,000 cm3 (or, for ease of accounting, 1 dm3) = 1 kg due to how most organic materials have their densities set. Hence, it's likely Toady set animal sizes by looking up average masses.
(Note that in DF, "average" size and mass are often biased towards the larger and heavier side of things, because muscle and fat mass added on by stats seem to be added on top of the average mass, resulting in dwarves, with a supposed 60 dm3 having an actual average size of roughly 75 dm3.)
Wild horses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przewalski's_horse) seem to have a size more like 300kg/300dm3, and so do "light riding horses", but Toady is apparently going for "large riding horses", which can be 500 to 600 kg, while "draft horses" can go as high as 1000 kg. This correlates roughly to an Andalusian (Spanish) horse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_horse). (Meaning the "average" DF horse is actually still half the size of a clydesdale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clydesdale_horse). This also makes them poor candidates for armored chargers, as those were larger, stronger draft breeds to be able to carry the added weight of armor and an armored rider.)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 22, 2016, 11:18:46 am
Oh, that does make sense - I wasn't really aware of the larger horse breeds tbh and was wondering how a troll would actually be less dense and have less mass than a horse.
Keep in mind, this is cubic size. "Twice the size" in cubic size means "about 25% taller" and along any other single dimension.
I suspect trolls are basically shaped like gorillas that would be 7 to 8 feet tall if they stood upright. Keep in mind that the "average" (American) Football linebacker is about 150 kg, or over twice the "average" human in this game.
So basically, imagine a football linebacker but just slightly bigger in every dimension. Naked. With tusks. And really, really hairy. Charging at you as soon as you see it, and continuing to charge until you or it falls over, unconscious or dead. That's a troll.
Post by: Dirst on April 22, 2016, 12:02:11 pm
Keep in mind that the "average" (American) Football linebacker is about 150 kg, or over twice the "average" human in this game.If association football had linebackers, it'd probably be more popular in the US :)
Post by: WordsandChaos on April 23, 2016, 06:40:57 am
What are your thoughts on wholesale procedurally generating weapons and armour by culture? As an example, in one world your typical Dwarven civilisation’s armoury would have the equivalent of a cup-hilted Gladius, with double edged, straight, short wide blade, and they’d be more prone to wearing crested round top caps. In another they’d be forging cross-guarded single edged elongated kukri-style curved blades and their head -gear would be flat-topped crusader style full helms.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 23, 2016, 06:55:06 am
Post by: WordsandChaos on April 23, 2016, 08:16:12 am
So long as we don't use the instrument naming scheme for them. I don't want to find out the hard way that a gnolbis or whatever turns out to be some sort of blender-halberd with bayonet and a guthook on the other end. :V
Yeah, I 'd assume naming-convention wise you wouldn't really need to go instrument route, due to the broad categories that weapons fall into, while instruments are a lot more niche despite their general broader categorisations, eg: you wouldn't necessarily call a Carillon a keyboard. It's a whole lot more complicated than that - but Dwarf Fortress can generate it (literally how I know the Carillon exists). Whereas, for the most part, an axe is an axe. Regardless of variance, it's function is roughly the same. I mean, all the multitudinous varieties of polearm in the world are still pretty much just polearms. I guess you could still put a Dwarven name on it in the description.
Post by: Dirst on April 23, 2016, 08:43:02 am
Armor should use whatever system eventually emerges for clothing fashions.
Post by: Button on April 24, 2016, 12:17:12 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 24, 2016, 01:50:01 pm
So long as we don't use the instrument naming scheme for them. I don't want to find out the hard way that a gnolbis or whatever turns out to be some sort of blender-halberd with bayonet and a guthook on the other end. :V
Yeah, I 'd assume naming-convention wise you wouldn't really need to go instrument route, due to the broad categories that weapons fall into, while instruments are a lot more niche despite their general broader categorisations, eg: you wouldn't necessarily call a Carillon a keyboard. It's a whole lot more complicated than that - but Dwarf Fortress can generate it (literally how I know the Carillon exists). Whereas, for the most part, an axe is an axe. Regardless of variance, it's function is roughly the same. I mean, all the multitudinous varieties of polearm in the world are still pretty much just polearms. I guess you could still put a Dwarven name on it in the description.
It would honestly make more sense if the game was more capable of morphing existing words. (Here's hoping for a Language arc sometime soon...)
For example, in real life, you have the danish axe, which was famously used by the Danes. Or, you have the Bec de Corbin, which is in French (crow's beak) because it's a French weapon.
You could have a dwarven Toltotthocit, or raven spike, as your preferred close-range defense weapon against ravages of undead ravens.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 24, 2016, 03:14:36 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 24, 2016, 04:12:49 pm
If it were called a "ravenspike", in the same way that dwarves are surnamed "Bonebraided", it wouldn't be confusing for most, but those who really wanted to wallow in the language could do so.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 24, 2016, 04:15:28 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 24, 2016, 04:17:09 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 24, 2016, 04:23:03 pm
I imagine it will be quite a long time until he gets to the real crazy language things.
Why? With the current myth stuff making procedural language more important than ever, I would hope that Toady get around to Language Arc sooner rather than later.
It will hopefully mean the end of (or at least, evolution of) those fill-in-the-blank conversations where every statement has the exact same sentence structure and only the nouns changing.
Post by: Inarius on April 24, 2016, 04:29:58 pm
Can you give some insight into what circumstances cause non-sapient creatures to become historical figures in fortress mode?
Well, generally it's when they kill someone (a sapient someone), isn't it ?
About language, I think that it will part of a "Culture" arc, because there are a LOT of things to do (and very interesting one) to differenciate cultures. Look at what Ultima Ratio Regum has tried to do on this part.
But about dialogue and conversation I wondered something.
Some RPG have very advanced (of course, scripted) talks between you and your PNJ companions (such as, for example most Obsidian games), while others have very minimal or no "psychological" interaction. How do you envision interaction between you and your companion(s) ? Are you happy with the current state of this part of the game, do you plan in a middle/long term to change it, and if yes, how (=to what) ?
Post by: Dirst on April 24, 2016, 04:47:33 pm
Of course, it was inevitable that we would.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 24, 2016, 05:21:15 pm
Well, generally it's when they kill someone (a sapient someone), isn't it ?
That's a fairly easy one to pull off, but there is also being a child of a historical figure, being some sort of explorer or adventurer, being a leader of any kind, or making some sort of notable object whether it is an artifact or just some masterwork crafts and becoming a legendary crafter.
About language, I think that it will part of a "Culture" arc, because there are a LOT of things to do (and very interesting one) to differenciate cultures. Look at what Ultima Ratio Regum has tried to do on this part.
But about dialogue and conversation I wondered something.
Some RPG have very advanced (of course, scripted) talks between you and your PNJ companions (such as, for example most Obsidian games), while others have very minimal or no "psychological" interaction. How do you envision interaction between you and your companion(s) ? Are you happy with the current state of this part of the game, do you plan in a middle/long term to change it, and if yes, how (=to what) ?
Toady wants to allow marriage and romance at some point, and if you can have romance with anyone, why not your followers?
In any event, as long as there's a Language Arc in the future, I can't imagine there isn't further rewrites of dialogue that will go with it.
Post by: Button on April 25, 2016, 09:27:16 am
Can you give some insight into what circumstances cause non-sapient creatures to become historical figures in fortress mode?
Well, generally it's when they kill someone (a sapient someone), isn't it ?
Well, generally it's when they kill someone (a sapient someone), isn't it ?
That's a fairly easy one to pull off, but there is also being a child of a historical figure, being some sort of explorer or adventurer, being a leader of any kind, or making some sort of notable object whether it is an artifact or just some masterwork crafts and becoming a legendary crafter.
There are new ones. I had a weasel become a historical figure after doing nothing except chill in a cage and get re-trained every time he reverted to wild. Eventually he died of old age. When I checked legends later, he was a historical figure.
We're also seeing some strange behavior in the Accelerated Modest Mod which suggests that a lot more critters are historical figures than would have been in 40.x.
Post by: therahedwig on April 26, 2016, 11:10:34 am
Quote
allowed work orders to be automatically restarted with different frequencies (always/monthly/seasonal/yearly), respecting any conditions.
Any conditions? What kind of range is that 'any'? What is the craziest condition you implemented, or will be possible with your implementation?
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 26, 2016, 12:45:48 pm
Well, generally it's when they kill someone (a sapient someone), isn't it ?
That's a fairly easy one to pull off, but there is also being a child of a historical figure, being some sort of explorer or adventurer, being a leader of any kind, or making some sort of notable object whether it is an artifact or just some masterwork crafts and becoming a legendary crafter.About language, I think that it will part of a "Culture" arc, because there are a LOT of things to do (and very interesting one) to differenciate cultures. Look at what Ultima Ratio Regum has tried to do on this part.
But about dialogue and conversation I wondered something.
Some RPG have very advanced (of course, scripted) talks between you and your PNJ companions (such as, for example most Obsidian games), while others have very minimal or no "psychological" interaction. How do you envision interaction between you and your companion(s) ? Are you happy with the current state of this part of the game, do you plan in a middle/long term to change it, and if yes, how (=to what) ?
Toady wants to allow marriage and romance at some point, and if you can have romance with anyone, why not your followers?
In any event, as long as there's a Language Arc in the future, I can't imagine there isn't further rewrites of dialogue that will go with it.
About the language arc, I wonder if toady is still planning to procedurally generate actual text snippets/paragraphs in books for players to translate or if he has completely decided that that probably isn't "doable", it wouldn't surprise me if he still wanted to accomplish it, he isn't one to shy away from something so challenging.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 26, 2016, 08:41:47 pm
About the language arc, I wonder if toady is still planning to procedurally generate actual text snippets/paragraphs in books for players to translate or if he has completely decided that that probably isn't "doable", it wouldn't surprise me if he still wanted to accomplish it, he isn't one to shy away from something so challenging.
I'm not so sure it would even be that challenging... you know, unless you wanted it to make sense or something.
Strictly speaking, if you just used some sort of chatbot program off the shelf that just generates conversational-style text, and then used the mostly already-existing code to just find and replace words in English with words in Dwarvish, you'd be done.
Language arc mostly needs to do things like be able to conjugate verbs, (I.E. right now, "anger" is "ustos" in dwarvish, and "angered" is "ustos", and "will be angry" is "ustos", and "angrily" is "ustos"...) as well as set up rules for grammar, rather than just being "Mad Libs" pre-built sentences where you fill in the nouns. Then, you can get things like replacing the exact extent to which a peasant will emphasize the monster in question. (Not every creature will be described as, "It has killed KILL_NUM in its thirst for destruction!", although even gradients can be created with simple fill-in-the-blanks for how its destructiveness is described.)
Post by: WordsandChaos on April 27, 2016, 01:49:29 am
Well, generally it's when they kill someone (a sapient someone), isn't it ?
That's a fairly easy one to pull off, but there is also being a child of a historical figure, being some sort of explorer or adventurer, being a leader of any kind, or making some sort of notable object whether it is an artifact or just some masterwork crafts and becoming a legendary crafter.About language, I think that it will part of a "Culture" arc, because there are a LOT of things to do (and very interesting one) to differenciate cultures. Look at what Ultima Ratio Regum has tried to do on this part.
But about dialogue and conversation I wondered something.
Some RPG have very advanced (of course, scripted) talks between you and your PNJ companions (such as, for example most Obsidian games), while others have very minimal or no "psychological" interaction. How do you envision interaction between you and your companion(s) ? Are you happy with the current state of this part of the game, do you plan in a middle/long term to change it, and if yes, how (=to what) ?
Toady wants to allow marriage and romance at some point, and if you can have romance with anyone, why not your followers?
In any event, as long as there's a Language Arc in the future, I can't imagine there isn't further rewrites of dialogue that will go with it.
About the language arc, I wonder if toady is still planning to procedurally generate actual text snippets/paragraphs in books for players to translate or if he has completely decided that that probably isn't "doable", it wouldn't surprise me if he still wanted to accomplish it, he isn't one to shy away from something so challenging.
Theoretically not necessarily impossible, but it would be fiddly. Off the top of my head you'd divide general statements into categories - questions, answers, greetings, etc. I suppose you'd have to get the program to recognise each separate part of a sentence, like 'Hi, how are you?' and then structure something around that. So:
'Hi' is the greeting - it's interchangeable with a number of other single word greeting, or possibly some more elaborate ones.
Then you've got the question type - in this case you can conceivably swap 'how' out with 'why', 'where', 'what', etc. Then 'are' could be one of a similar list, - 'were', 'do', 'can', etc. and then the subject - 'you', 'he', 'she', 'it', 'they', '[name]' etc.
Of course, that has the ability to generate some... interesting questions, and it's pretty simplistic. But it does get quite stodgy when you start going into all the sub-categories any one word can occupy depending on context.
Post by: Libash_Thunderhead on April 27, 2016, 03:36:49 am
Post by: vjmdhzgr on April 27, 2016, 05:08:51 pm
Will human residents drink water instead of booze?If you go halfway across the world to a legendary dwarven tavern, would you drink water instead of booze?
Post by: Dirst on April 27, 2016, 05:10:48 pm
Hey, if dwarves understood the motivations of humans, they'd probably get sieged less often.Will human residents drink water instead of booze?If you go halfway across the world to a legendary dwarven tavern, would you drink water instead of booze?
Post by: Sver on April 27, 2016, 06:15:37 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 28, 2016, 12:28:13 am
Europeans drank either (weak) alcoholic drinks or (herbal) teas in the time period DF is constrained to.
If you're talking about adding more drinks, then adding tea brewing makes more sense.
Post by: Untrustedlife on April 28, 2016, 08:10:19 am
Historically, there was reason not to drink the water, what with people dumping their sewage into the same waters their wells were connected to and all. The brewing process killed the germs, whether that was alcohol or tea or later coffee, since it involved getting water up to or at least near boiling.
Europeans drank either (weak) alcoholic drinks or (herbal) teas in the time period DF is constrained to.
If you're talking about adding more drinks, then adding tea brewing makes more sense.
I would play with tea brewing if toady added that!
Post by: DG on April 28, 2016, 08:33:13 am
Post by: BenLubar on April 28, 2016, 05:26:32 pm
Post by: Bumber on April 28, 2016, 08:00:15 pm
I've been doing some math about possible tile sizes. It takes an average dwarf 9 ticks to walk 1 tile, which equates to 10 meters at WolframAlpha's 2.5 mph estimate. This means the map sizes in the "Create World" menu are Wales, Israel, Portugal, Germany, and Iran. A standard 4x4 embark is about 910 acres, and with 200 dwarves, that's about average (142 people per square mile) population density. Does 10x10 make more sense than 2x2 tile sizes?Dwarves have shorter legs than humans, so are probably slower. They probably aren't in much a hurry to begin with. It's not a good idea to work backwards from speed when we don't know how fast a dwarf should be.
Tiles have been loosely defined as 2 meters wide, at least until Toady decides to rework them. Creatures and items have been given definitive volumes in the raws, but that's useless when everything fits in one tile.
Post by: King Mir on April 28, 2016, 09:37:02 pm
*DG was unfocused after being unable to sample a suitably quixotic tea preference for too long*If you're that unfocused, are you sure that was tea?
Post by: DG on April 29, 2016, 03:14:47 am
Post by: Sizik on April 29, 2016, 07:49:50 am
I've been doing some math about possible tile sizes. It takes an average dwarf 9 ticks to walk 1 tile, which equates to 10 meters at WolframAlpha's 2.5 mph estimate. This means the map sizes in the "Create World" menu are Wales, Israel, Portugal, Germany, and Iran. A standard 4x4 embark is about 910 acres, and with 200 dwarves, that's about average (142 people per square mile) population density. Does 10x10 make more sense than 2x2 tile sizes?Dwarves have shorter legs than humans, so are probably slower. They probably aren't in much a hurry to begin with. It's not a good idea to work backwards from speed when we don't know how fast a dwarf should be.
Tiles have been loosely defined as 2 meters wide, at least until Toady decides to rework them. Creatures and items have been given definitive volumes in the raws, but that's useless when everything fits in one tile.
Also, Fortress mode ticks are 72 seconds, not 1 second, so by that math each tile should be 724 meters.
Post by: Dirst on April 29, 2016, 08:37:01 am
Also, Fortress mode ticks are 72 seconds, not 1 second, so by that math each tile should be 724 meters.One seed per tile makes so much more sense if the tiles are 724 meters on a side!
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 29, 2016, 09:47:04 am
Post by: Button on April 29, 2016, 09:51:02 am
Also, Fortress mode ticks are 72 seconds, not 1 second, so by that math each tile should be 724 meters.One seed per tile makes so much more sense if the tiles are 724 meters on a side!
Not to mention trees that go up 5 or 6 tiles....
Post by: PTTG?? on April 29, 2016, 11:56:11 am
As a result, there's no real answer to the question of "how big the world is." It goes from the pole to the equator, and (generally) is about as wide.
Unfortunately, that never ends the argument. It'll quiet down in time.
Post by: Dirst on April 29, 2016, 12:17:23 pm
This argument comes and goes. I've taken every side on it; I've been the dog (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Q_Continuum). I've finally come to the conclusion that Dwarf Fortress simply isn't too concerned with scalar issues and focuses instead on events and narrative, making sacrifices where nessisary to maintain some level of functionality.The game needs dwarves to take several ticks to get from one tile to another simply so that some other "fast" creatures can move across the screen faster than dwarves without skipping tiles in the middle. If that seems game-y, too bad.
As a result, there's no real answer to the question of "how big the world is." It goes from the pole to the equator, and (generally) is about as wide.
Unfortunately, that never ends the argument. It'll quiet down in time.
Post by: Putnam on April 29, 2016, 03:22:11 pm
I've been doing some math about possible tile sizes. It takes an average dwarf 9 ticks to walk 1 tile, which equates to 10 meters at WolframAlpha's 2.5 mph estimate. This means the map sizes in the "Create World" menu are Wales, Israel, Portugal, Germany, and Iran. A standard 4x4 embark is about 910 acres, and with 200 dwarves, that's about average (142 people per square mile) population density. Does 10x10 make more sense than 2x2 tile sizes?Dwarves have shorter legs than humans, so are probably slower. They probably aren't in much a hurry to begin with. It's not a good idea to work backwards from speed when we don't know how fast a dwarf should be.
The raws explicitly state exactly how fast a dwarf should be.
Code: [Select]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_BIPED_GAITS:900:711:521:293:1900:2900] 30 kph(293/900)*30 = 9.766... km/h when walking, so at their walking pace, dwarves go at about 2.7 m/s, or 6 miles per hour.
Strolling pace is a more reasonable 4.62 km/h, or about 1.28 meters per second, or 2.8 miles per hour.
Post by: blue sam3 on April 29, 2016, 03:50:08 pm
I've been doing some math about possible tile sizes. It takes an average dwarf 9 ticks to walk 1 tile, which equates to 10 meters at WolframAlpha's 2.5 mph estimate. This means the map sizes in the "Create World" menu are Wales, Israel, Portugal, Germany, and Iran. A standard 4x4 embark is about 910 acres, and with 200 dwarves, that's about average (142 people per square mile) population density. Does 10x10 make more sense than 2x2 tile sizes?
2.5 mph is really slow. That's the sort of speed estimate you use for planning walks with small children. 4-5mph is more reasonable.
Post by: TheFlame52 on April 29, 2016, 06:52:18 pm
Post by: falcc on April 30, 2016, 01:17:32 am
Post by: Max™ on April 30, 2016, 12:37:34 pm
Post by: Cormack on April 30, 2016, 01:54:27 pm
I hope that it can be a simulator in which you could live your life in the fantasy world, not constrained by anything other than logic of the world and your imagination.
I don't care about slaying dragons, really, I'd much rather command armies in the field - lead them, supply them, care about my men and make sure that they have something to eat and drink. Or to be a wandering minstrel, whose stories would become part of the world's lore and which I could share with other players. Or a quiet tavern owner who serves the best beer that he makes himself. There are many roguelikes, but only one game like that. And that would be the difference.
Post by: blue sam3 on April 30, 2016, 05:51:05 pm
4-5 mph is a jog. Have you ever walked on a treadmill before?
I know that if I walk for an hour, I'll be 4-5 miles away. I walk pretty quick.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 30, 2016, 11:15:20 pm
I've been doing some math about possible tile sizes. It takes an average dwarf 9 ticks to walk 1 tile, which equates to 10 meters at WolframAlpha's 2.5 mph estimate. This means the map sizes in the "Create World" menu are Wales, Israel, Portugal, Germany, and Iran. A standard 4x4 embark is about 910 acres, and with 200 dwarves, that's about average (142 people per square mile) population density. Does 10x10 make more sense than 2x2 tile sizes?Dwarves have shorter legs than humans, so are probably slower. They probably aren't in much a hurry to begin with. It's not a good idea to work backwards from speed when we don't know how fast a dwarf should be.
Tiles have been loosely defined as 2 meters wide, at least until Toady decides to rework them. Creatures and items have been given definitive volumes in the raws, but that's useless when everything fits in one tile.
Toady said 2.5 meters * 2.5 meters * 3 meters was the size used when he was setting up minecarts. The creature speeds (which are measured in kph in the raws) fit with this.
Also, the largest map sizes are around the size of Ireland. (It therefore makes far more sense to consider DF maps "islands" or "regions" more than "worlds", at least unless there's a sudden increase in map size by an order of magnitude after the jump to 64 bits.)
Post by: Putnam on May 01, 2016, 06:08:22 am
Post by: Rose on May 01, 2016, 06:17:34 am
Post by: Toady One on May 01, 2016, 01:26:17 pm
Quote from: Button
What kinds of questions do you prefer receiving in the FotF thread?
1. When will (known bug or existing feature) be fixed/changed?
2. Is (behavior) intended?
3. What are your plans for (new feature)?
4. Please elaborate on (thing you've said you're working on right now).
I'd prefer to leave bugs and suggestions in their proper places, but clearing up confusion is good, especially with current dev logs where I might have phrased something poorly or missed something. Asking when something will happen is pointless in most cases. Asking about future plans is welcome, but the farther out something is, chances are I won't have as much to offer.
Quote from: KillzEmAllGod
Seeing as there are hidden features that get added in some updates, why don't they also get hidden in legends?
Didn't take long for someone to just view legends and figure that out and tell everyone else about it.
When might ceremonies, celebration and competitions make it into fort mode and might we be able to specify the details of it much like artwork?
Mainly just want something else to do in fort mode that's a bit of roleplay.
Boats and multitile monsters seem to be the biggest challenge to implement yet z levels don't feel like they're one step down movement wise because of the change in stone layers, what might be the area of a square and the hight of a z level?
Well that might be a bit confusing, mainly just want to know how big monsters and boats might be and thats if they they span z levels.
Adventure mode comes closer to fort mode in terms of ability though will their time scales be brought closer and what might that mean for fort mode with the speed of jobs etc?
The map areas are 46x46 (at least I remember them being about that), would it be possible for the caverns to be inactive till they're breached or if it's not able to be done what would be the constraints?
How's the 64 bit coming if that has been worked on as of yet and how would you describe of what needs to be done in moving DF from 32 bit to 64 bit?
It gets to be too much trouble keeping a rolling list of what counts as hidden and what doesn't. We used to hide everything until it was encountered, but that made legends mode useless to people that just wanted to read the legends. I'm not sure what it'll end up looking like, but we'd rather just leave it open for now.
I'm not sure when we'll get further with the festivals.
For some napkin calculations, we use 2mx2mx3m tiles, but we almost certainly need to keep boats below 48 tiles or we won't have a chance with map load/offload operations, so very long boats won't be possible. Large critters suffer from similar problems, though we can mostly just have them sitting partially offmap without suffering as much as we would with half a boat (since boats have map tiles themselves and contain units and items).
There are no plans to bring the time scales of adv and fort mode closer.
There are several serious issues with deactivating the caverns when they aren't loaded, though we still have hope that we might get some sort of optimization along those lines at some point.
I haven't started the 64 bit test yet -- it'll mark the change from the random small features and bug fixes I've been doing into the artifact/myth/magic stuff. I'm not sure when that transition will occur. We'll surely need some more bug fixes after this release.
Quote from: Max^TM
So, we'll be able to clamber up a mountain and make a site in the literal middle of nowhere, awesome, they're roughly the same as camps so we have an idea of the behavior there, can't travel through them as expected.
You mentioned "up to 3x3" so I assume we can choose the size of our sites on creation. Will it take into account things like the agility/innate abilities of our adventurers during the construction process? Oftentimes when using advfort to build I made use of my ability to just scale walls and jump gaps or even fly with certain races, or is that mostly abstracted during the composition/travel/rest screen cutaway?
Right now it just defaults to a 3x3 if it fits. All work is abstracted away on a travel-screen-style cutaway, aside from some workshop jobs that should take time but don't yet.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
'Maximum Fantasy' setting will offer us a variety of procedurally generated races. Does that mean the Mythgen release will open up "Fortress Mode" to other types of site management modes (cities, pits, forest retreats, etc)? Or will the system arrange to always have an underground dwelling fortress building civ available? Or not and just let you play adventurer instead?
In the interest of getting a release up in a timely fashion, it'll probably just open up fort mode to races that can reasonably emulate it at first, and have a parameter to force at least one random race to be fortressy. The overall longlongterm goal is to open settlement building to everybody, of course, and we'll see what we can get away with/allow at this stage.
Quote from: NW_Kohaku
With the coming mythic changes, will there be ways in which myths can "decay"? That is, portals to different dimensions shut down forever, schools of magic forever lost, or once mythic and legendary things turning mundane when their "magic energy source" is cut off. (Such as a city on a floating island turning into a mere plateau, or the edge of a discworld turning into merely a chain of really stormy areas of sea on a globe with undiscovered continents.)
For that matter, you mentioned concepts like myths from different creatures/cultures that oppose, and some of which may or may not be true. If there are conflicting myths, will it be possible for us as players to affect whether they are true or not? (To dip into the more Elder Scrolls style mythic, where reality is partly subjective, belief or disbelief can grant or strip away divinity.) If I lead a crusade to wipe out believers of a contradictory myth, can I make that myth untrue, and take away its magical power? Can we, in play, make new myths, or shape existing ones in other ways?
Yeah, some of it happens naturally, just because in a game where things die and are tracked numerically, that tends to be how the world goes if you don't put in some effort at restoration. We have put some thought into this though -- even in the original Armok, we were hoping to have different courses available for the universe, whether it's fading out, or cyclic, or apocalyptic, or stuck in some perpetual gothic nightmare.
For elements where the default state is "permanent part of the world", it'll take some directed work. The notes we've drawn up from our various inspirations include some rules for change and some power-sourcing, so I'm hopeful we'll have some of this before the end of time. At the same time, it would be cool to have, say, a way that the world could become awakened to magic or connected to another reality as well. I'd like change to be possible, since it is good for stories, but what we'll actually accomplish is unknown.
I'm not personally inclined toward the "belief creates reality" model, but as a fantasy world simulator, DF should probably keep it in mind since it comes up often enough, and it would be funny to watch the ebb and flow of that in a computer simulation that doesn't have any escape hatch when things go horrible wrong. It has some overhead calculations, but those can probably be folded into whatever schism and other demographic calculations we end up needed when we get further with religions in general. But like most things, there's aren't particular plans. In terms of myth creation, we just have those megabeast superstitions in world gen right now. In the 0% fantasy setting, the myths will have to come from somewhere, though when we'll have new ones in play vs. ones that cultures start with is also hard to say. There's a lot to do.
Quote from: Egan_BW
You've mentioned a "fantasy rating" for worldgen. Do you think that will be in for the first release with myths, or is that for later?
It is almost assuredly going in on the first pass in some form. Whether it is broken up into several parameters or takes some other form remains to be seen.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
So, the system for playing as a bard in this game is amazing, you can write music play instruments get people all happy, dance, do poems, play music, pretty much whatever you want however, people don't get bored when you play the same song five thousand times, and they don't throw money at you when you play really well, and if you are bad, they don't try to, for example throw you out of the tavern, do you plan to make it so people can become bored if you play the same song five thousand times (especially if the song is described as not even being very good in general) and get upset if you play really bad (or really crappy songs), or will people always be perpetually entertained by the same song (even if its a "badly written" song) and not throw you out of taverns for playing badly..?
There's lots to do! I'm not sure when we'll get a chance, but we'd like to do more with performances.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Will nations ever effect the terrain around them? Like say, a bunch of goblins dam off a river to make a lake, but years later the dam bursts, flooding the river valley?
It would be cool, but there are a lot of difficulties getting it to work correctly at the various map levels nicely etc., especially with the information it keeps stored in sites and armies, etc. Fluids are harder than most changes as well.
Quote from: ZM5
will it eventually be possible to start civilizations instead of merely being extensions of existing ones?
Like having a new group of dwarves come in from the edge of the map different from all others and which world generation knows nothing about? That plays against the simulation in a lot of ways, but would be kind of like the outsider adventurer. I haven't thought about it.
Quote from: KillzEmAllGod
With visitors coming to the fortress will there be bandits and animal people that are armed that might wander into the map only to cross it or vist?
Might get bandits already but they only appear to belong to goblins.
Theres groups of bards so when might there be groups of scholars, mercenaries and adventures?
These groups or visitors that are residents living in our fort, being able to go offsite and coming back latter like scholars going elsewhere to meet others is this something to be done under Fortress Starting Scenarios when that deals with this type of stuff more indepth?
With the new myth system will this allow dragons and other megabeasts to be semi random?
When might more weather be added to regions like magical mist and fog that covers the whole region most of the time?
So why did being blind or having a lack of eyes only effect vision range and not being truly blind, though there appears to be sound and other senses?
When was the last time you had a good play through of fort mode if you can remember?
There are some bandit tavern-goers, but they aren't special in any way yet. There are also other kinds of travelers. But yeah, they don't do anything very interesting yet, and it'll be slowly improved. I have no idea when.
There are some raw-altering elements of the myth generator, but doing a good semi-random dragon had kind of been sitting there as an opportunity to get a lot of the randomization out into the raws in general... but I'm not ready to do that yet.
I have no idea when there will be more weather. The myth generator implied some additional chaos/primordial weather, so we might see that.
Ideally blindness would be more realistic, but that requires the coding of a lot of feedback and other changes.
I don't remember my last good fort mode game. I always have to quit to change something.
Quote
Quote from: DirstHi Toady, I can see building a world directly from the raws, and going full Gray Goo with procedural generation... but I am interested in the settings in between. Do you envision the player being able to give any direction to the randomness, in essence increasing the scope of advanced world generation? Or will it start out as just an increasing fraction of the raw content being replaced by generated content?
I'm also curious from where the generated content comes. Is it a shuffled form of the raws?Quote from: Urlance WoolsbaneThe GDC myth-generator video shows that randomized races are in the pipeline. Will users be able to influence the random elements, and if so, by how much?
Yeah, that's the idea for a default game more or less, and any new myth parameters should just fit in with other world generation parameters (though some of them might be promoted to a Create New World menu level of importance). The vanilla game now is a mix of partially controllable random stuff plus the raws. It wasn't highlighted in the talk, but there were some magic tuning options, for instance, to let you turn parts of that off and on, and I expect it'll continue on that way, for randomized races and the other bits.
Yeah, it creates raw text and then processes it, just to keep me honest. The generation process is reasonably involved, especially for creatures, which is why it has been difficult to move it out into the raws. I'm still not sure how that's going to play out.
Quote from: decev
Will the player be able to read a creation story with 100% fantasy and one with 0% fantasy and be able to tell which is which?
People pointed out that the 100% fantasy setting currently removes raw creatures and replaces them with procedural ones, so you'd be able to tell. It's not difficult to make a 0% fantasy story incorporate random mythological races though -- it's more a matter of taste and readability than anything. So people with knowledge of the system's specific parameters might be able to pick them out, at least between the most extreme settings, but it shouldn't always be obvious, and it will hopefully be impossible to tell between a 0% fantasy and a default world (the only quirk there now is that a 0% fantasy world doesn't have fake dwarves and elves in their myths, which is also a matter of taste). Overall, the routines and events and all that are identical, though.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
If animals ever get a rehaul to count individuals on a global scale migrationally etc. etc, would mundane animals that could survive the semi-cold and dark environment (grizzly bears for instance) inhabit sections of the caverns via non-megabeast guarded cave entrances? this may be additionally relevant to 0% fantastical worlds in which mundane flora may have room to breathe and expand onto the landscape and serve as a sanctuary from high aboveground settlement & hunting
We'd like to just have migrations at all first, and responses to depopulation that don't just involve old populations coming back exactly the same. I'm not sure how that'll play out though. Ideally they'd be able to react to non-standard environments, but that starts to create cpu overhead and so forth, so it's difficult.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Usually fantasy worlds are ranked by "magic prevalence"(which you have) and "really chaotic magic to extremely consistent controlled magic", with the extreme end of the chaos scale to the right being that magic can essentially be studied as a science and is perfectly consistent, the extreme left of the scale is where magic is extremely unpredictable and dangerous, do you plan to add a "How chaotic is magic" scale in addition to the magical prevalence scale? OR will we just have the prevalence scale.
I'm not sure which sorts of parameters I'm going to end up with, and I don't want to sidestep the conversation in the thread by just addressing the chaos slider issue. I think it started as a reduction of mystery to unpredictable chaos, which isn't what I mean when I say mystery. Some mysteries can even be solved. Handling "mystery" is a bit easier in adventure mode and there are plenty of ways to do it without going to a wild magic table. If I remember, which I might not since it was a while ago, the original "magic is mysterious" conversation was more related to doing something that wasn't "You get your Level 3 Fireball at Level 5". In those terms, the "mystery" bar is not as high.
As one example, imagine a magic that is like an invisible unspeaking companion, but not a full deity persona, and go from there (our nature forces or spirit magic might at times be this way) -- you can have analogs to a relationship and reputation with it, but since you can't talk to it and don't know what it wants or what it responds to, you can't get much useful feedback on your status -- at first, you might not even know it exists as such, just that the gesture you learned isn't 100% reliable. Successful magic-users come to understand the "personality" of the magic "companion" and can talk about it as they'd talk about a friend (or a dangerous ally, or just dangerous), and they can teach their students what they know, in terms of over-use and circumstances of use and hidden perils. With some effort, this would pass the "mystery" test for a time, especially with a single adventurer, and with a magic that gets restless or bored or attached, but not overly mad at you, that time could be a long while. If you come back with another adventurer, you'd know some of the ropes and it would be less mysterious, and possibly easier to exploit, but that's part of the game. On that score, the example is tweakable -- if everybody had a different magic "companion", then you'd have to learn the ropes all over again, and it would be much more difficult to play (since it would be harder for a teacher to help you), but harder to exploit. That's a matter of taste more than anything.
It is harder if you don't have the restricted perspective of a single character, but I'm not without hope. For a fort library, doing "dangerous" magical research isn't much different from digging an adamantine spire -- the spire is currently sort of unsatisfying and based (spatially) on a chance to breach, and an unsatisfying dangerous research system would rely on a simple chance for a catastrophe as you gain knowledge, though there's nothing wrong with putting your fortress on the altar of sacrifice if it changes magical knowledge in the world somehow, as an overall "playing the world" decision. It's true that it would be frustrating in a fort if you are trying to use an unreliable/dangerous magic to accomplish day to day tasks. I'm fine with certain magics simply not being safe or practical for fort mode, and the game would have to respect that as settlement-mode races are given magical powers. Giving the default dwarves magical powers probably qualifies as its own world gen parameter, though, since it does change the feel of the game. Fort mode artifact production merging with a magic system is another matter, and I'm not sure what forms that'll end up taking at this point.
Quote from: Urlance Woolsbane
What does the SUPERNATURAL tag do? The wiki claims that it gives a creature access to all secrets of a corresponding sphere, yet it doesn't seem to do that in 42.xx.
It is used as a tag in some of the randomized interactions. [SUPERNATURAL] creatures cannot be turned into werebeasts and vampires, and it is given to some of the generated creatures. I don't remember if it used to do other things.
Quote from: ZM5
will modders need to add their own creatures and such to the file itself, or will sentient, civilized races be automatically pulled from the raws into the myths in-game without having to create any additional files?
The creature files in the presentation were just a quick way to get the presentation going. I expect DF will use the existing raws for that portion. I'm not yet sure about the astronomical objects. The sun, moon and stars exist in the game already, with in-game effects (with adv mode lighting, werecreatures, etc.), and it'll be some work to support additions and subtractions -- which parts of the myth are respected will have to come in in sections to avoid a too-long release.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Why don't elves have fairs?
Taverns are two-story. Towers and keeps are multi-story. Will other buildings like houses or shops be multi-story in the future?
Is there a comprehensive list of divine materials in the game, but only some of them actually get generated? I've noticed that a few metals/fabrics are always the same combination of descriptor and sphere. Examples: sonorous lines/music, twisting metal/chaos.
For DF at this point, fairs are envisioned more as something like the Champagne fair cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_fairs), distinct from the holy periods and festivals. Elves don't have fairs because they don't value commerce.
I haven't done much with varying shapes of buildings. We'll get there at some point.
It builds the materials up randomly, but they don't have varied properties and many of the sphere-based options only have one or two words at this point, since we were just passing through at the time, so repeats are common and it does almost work effectively like a single list.
Quote
Quote from: therahedwigHow do you plan on dealing with introducing a variety of magical abilities as the development progresses? I mean, I imagine you wouldn't be able to make one big fancy magic release with all the types of magic possible, as probably a lot of these things need to be programmed in and have a modicum of balancing, on the other hand, I can imagine that you might want to keep people on their toes when it comes to new features in magic. Is it going to be handled like hidden fun stuff? Or are you going to nicely put into the release notes 'transfiguration into aquatic animals is now possible'?Quote from: UntrustedlifeHey toady how do you plan to handle the obvious AI implications of some spells, such as douse flames, summon water and change into plant, people have been arguing with each other over this stuff for the past few days nonstop, i'm sure you have thought of this, so can you elaborate as to how you will handle it?
It's very unlikely we're going to try for everything all at once, though as you know, we'll probably try for a little too much. We're going to try our best to chop it up. And yeah, there's probably some room for surprising people with an addition here and there, he he he.
For the change self into plant example from the talk, I was working from camouflage there, but yeah, the talk magic systems were thrown together very quickly and I'm not going to try to add a few hundred effects in a few days like I did there -- the talk systems didn't even have many of the parameters that were needed for them to make sense (such as duration/end condition for the plant effect).
AI-wise, I don't know that the current usage hints for interactions will survive the magic system generator, but for the random systems we have the advantage of only putting in effects we can understand and control, so I'm not particularly worried about the AI in general. Players will use them more creatively than NPC magic users -- that's true of everything in the game already. If you find that you lost an NPC you were chasing because it had turned itself into a strawberry plant near some other strawberry plants (because they have a routine that goes that far in the use of such an effect), then that's cool. If (when hunger etc. is implemented) you find yourself feeding a starving companion by turning yourself into a strawberry plant in a way an NPC wouldn't have thought of, then that's cool. If you end up not having a finger when you change back, then that would be cool too.
For complicated spells that go beyond one basic effect that the game can easily manage (since all the base effects are hard-coded and therefore can have tailored routines), we'd still have the advantage of the game having generated them (and therefore knowing what it was going for, providing some appropriate hints). Over in nightmare territory, we have player-authored spells that are then learned by NPCs -- it would be difficult or impossible for an AI to figure out what to do with those reliably, even if they have one basic effect (because the player might have given it screwy parameters). The player could include usage hints perhaps, but that would be exploitable by including deliberately incorrect hints (which is perhaps an acceptable cost of making the system that flexible, though even in single-player games some people don't like having to resist exploits).
Quote from: Untrustedlife
So toady, will the artifact release be the release with the first iteration of the myth/magic system generator? And will you ever release the prototype so we can play with it?
We were vaguely leaning toward an artifact release before the first myth release which isn't about magic but more about artifact quests and thieves and gifts and w.g. production and so on, so that those things would be nicely in place in time for the magic artifacts to be properly enjoyed (and so the wait between releases is decreased). We'd like to split it up into pieces. But I'm not sure which ones. There are any number of ways to chop it.
Quote from: KillzEmAllGod
What was with the [AMBUSHER] tag being removed from goblins?
Seems like there might be a bit too many of them...
What makes people become monster hunters and mercenaries?
A few questions more to do with "timeline".
What release might the mounts be more usable for combat?
Animal care really has been a useless skill so whats been stopping dwarfs from caring for animals?
Armor for animals how much armor could we cover of a dragon without immobilising it or would there be some special armor designs for animals that would be ideal to have it?
Goblins never had [AMBUSHER], unless there was a bug in some version. I checked the first version, 40d, and 40.01. It is for elves and kobolds.
World generation doesn't ask much of potential job candidates -- it can't give everybody personalities for memory/speed reasons, so people that occur first as mercenaries just sort of have that job. It just tries to have some people like that around. It can be made a bit more satisfying, but there's a lot going on in world generation so we don't have a lot of wiggle room.
I have no timeline answers for you.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
1. Does this means perpetual jobs stick around even if the previous attempt failed (Current example: The collect web job on repeat will be removed if someone happens to destroy a random piece of web the job happened to have selected for collection)? I'd prefer the answer to be "yes" of course.
2. A follow on question in case of a "yes" is whether jobs then would sit around waiting for conditions to allow them to complete before allocation, rather than generating cancellation spam? (basically a sanity check).
3. A third follow on question in case of a "yes" to the second one is whether these conditionally suspended jobs would act as suspended jobs do currently, or whether they would act as unallocated jobs do currently, i.e. whether they would just be passed by until "activated" by conditions being met, or would sit at the top of the queue blocking orders below them until fulfilled?
There are perpetual work orders, but the jobs themselves aren't changed. Conditions will help with some cancellation spam, but there's still work that needs to be done to deal with work orders that come to be undoable.
Quote from: CharonM72
With the myth generator, is it expected to ever be possible that the world mythology will involve the world being a disc floating in space (this has, I think, been asked before)? If so, my question is, if the myth level is sufficiently high that this is the reality, will it be possible to dig through the earth completely and arrive on the other side, involving falling through the void/flipping gravity to walk on the other side/something else interesting happening that would not happen in non-disc worlds?
I don't know what we're going to do with that sort of thing. Gravity flips seem pretty intractable with the graphics we have.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Right now, civs can live on past their expiration date in the form of refugees living in camps and abandoned sites. Will civs ever hunt down and kill enemy refugees? What about bandits?
Refugees need a lot of work in general, since they aren't understood as anything but an army.
Quote from: Dirst
Will a civ ever be "dead enough" that it will no longer be an option at embark, but still appear in Legends? Can a later group, which may or may not have any blood relation to the members of the dead civ, claim to "re-establish" that civ in the context of cutting ties with its real parent civ?
Yeah, adding the actual "dead" state to a civ is one of those world gen elements that didn't make it out into play yet. I'm not sure when the most likely time for it to come up is. Actually reawakening a dead civ has some associated complications, since the reawakener of the civ would be taking on everything in the object -- some of these variables should be attached to the name, but some of them shouldn't be, so we'd probably end up needing to do some work there.
Quote from: LordBaal
Do the orders have something like always keep 100 booze on stock, or 30 in this stockpile, and 70 in that other?
There's nothing quite like that. The best you can do now is say, do 10 brew jobs if you have the necessary materials and also less than 100 booze on hand. It can't turn off a work order if you hit another condition (like having 100 booze on hand), though that sort of thing might come in on a future pass without too much difficulty. Hopefully we can steer it to a satisfying state over time. It doesn't interact with specific stockpiles.
Quote from: Max^TM
This seems obvious looking back but I can't confirm it as an absolute rule: do bandits only mug citizens in an area with/around a well?
That's where they prefer to hang out, yeah, since they know there will be people going through there. The actual local mugging routine doesn't check for a well though, it just checks that their group is on a mission to torment the townsfolk. I don't know that they currently mug people in any sites without wells, but in that case I think maybe they just go to the site center.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Will all structures eventually appear in all settlements? Will we get temples in human dark fortresses and actual dungeons in goblin towns?
Right now there are some buildings that exist in legends that don't get maps, and we'd definitely like to fix that. There are also sites that become taken over by another group which should get versions of the new group's buildings, and we'd hope to do that, if it makes sense.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Regarding civilising, besides animal-men, why gorlaks and plump helmet men?
Are these 'test species' before you let everything intelligent civilise, or is there a "lore" reason? Like you see Gorlaks as far more likely to civilise than, say, trolls, gremlins or gnomes?
Yeah, gorlaks are supposed to be friendly and plump helmet men... are kind of animal people... in a very broad beyond animal way. Trolls aren't smart enough, gremlins are too mischievous and gnomes are too alcohol-crazed.
Quote from: WordsandChaos
What are your thoughts on wholesale procedurally generating weapons and armour by culture? As an example, in one world your typical Dwarven civilisation’s armoury would have the equivalent of a cup-hilted Gladius, with double edged, straight, short wide blade, and they’d be more prone to wearing crested round top caps. In another they’d be forging cross-guarded single edged elongated kukri-style curved blades and their head -gear would be flat-topped crusader style full helms.
We're all for it, and toyed around with the generation framework with those horrible vault items. We mainly just need to balance the naming with ungainly adjectives vs. naming with language words. Both options are bad. We can probably get away with a culture-name adjective and better descriptions, at least while the objects have easy English counterparts. Moving away from objects that have English names would land us in instrument-name territory, but there's probably some compound word solution for most of those that doesn't involve pure gibberish so you can at least get the item's general purpose out of the name without having to go to descriptions for everything.
Quote from: Button
Can you give some insight into what circumstances cause non-sapient creatures to become historical figures in fortress mode?
...
I had a weasel become a historical figure after doing nothing except chill in a cage and get re-trained every time he reverted to wild. Eventually he died of old age. When I checked legends later, he was a historical figure.
We're also seeing some strange behavior in the Accelerated Modest Mod which suggests that a lot more critters are historical figures than would have been in 40.x.
I don't have much additional useful insight. It happens all over and it just raises one up when it feels like it needs one. It might be reputation/relationship stuff that percolated through at some point -- it's the sort of thing that would happen with the animal training, over some rep/rel function call without having to refer to training in particular. There certainly seem to be places now where the raising is premature, and I'll probably need to place more controls on it.
Quote from: Inarius
Some RPG have very advanced (of course, scripted) talks between you and your PNJ companions (such as, for example most Obsidian games), while others have very minimal or no "psychological" interaction. How do you envision interaction between you and your companion(s) ? Are you happy with the current state of this part of the game, do you plan in a middle/long term to change it, and if yes, how (=to what) ?
Like most (all?) parts of the game, I'm not happy with it. People pointed out the romance/marriage stuff in the dev notes, and we'd generally like more banter and growing relationships and bonds (even if they aren't romantic). I don't think it'll be much different from how the conversations/relationships/reputations/etc. have slowly grown over time, but there'll be companion-specific improvements as we go. They have a very basic understanding now of why they are traveling with you (and can break the agreement in some cases), and I imagine some of the earlier improvements will be along those lines, and responding to your reputation-affecting actions they don't agree with perhaps. It's more difficult to give them their own distinct voices -- we already have a lot of data to work with that would help with characterization, but the amount of writing required and the way it all has to be chopped to pieces makes it a very difficult problem.
Quote from: therahedwig
Any conditions? What kind of range is that 'any'? What is the craziest condition you implemented, or will be possible with your implementation?
When I wrote "respecting any conditions" in the log, I was referring to the conditions I have added for work orders -- just "how many <item> are on hand" (compared to a number using > < >= <= == !=) and "has <work order> been activated/completed", where <item> can be set to pretty much any string you can see in a job cancellation announcement.
Quote from: falcc
With the upcoming myth generator it looks like random playable creatures can have all kinds of properties. Will dwarves ever start with things like immortality, lack of thirst, or lack of alcohol dependency; or are the creatures in the raws going to remain more static?
The raws are meant in part to offer some control for people that want things to be a certain way. At the same time, others will want some random elements as they play vanilla multiple times. We're all for leaving this up to parameters -- generally, as a default, I think dwarves will be as they are, but how magic works might be a bit up in the air with emphasis on artifacts and earth and metal and all that (default magic types might be for the raw spheres/etc.). There will probably be an option to let things get a bit more out of hand, so you could play a world that isn't fully resolved, say, so the reason why dwarves die (as prescribed by the raws) isn't decided yet. Ultimately, it would be cool if dwarves could then be cursed/blessed/whatevered with death during the course of play. It'll take a while to get to all that though.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 01, 2016, 01:44:47 pm
Quote from: NW_KohakuWith the coming mythic changes, will there be ways in which myths can "decay"? That is, portals to different dimensions shut down forever, schools of magic forever lost, or once mythic and legendary things turning mundane when their "magic energy source" is cut off. (Such as a city on a floating island turning into a mere plateau, or the edge of a discworld turning into merely a chain of really stormy areas of sea on a globe with undiscovered continents.)
For that matter, you mentioned concepts like myths from different creatures/cultures that oppose, and some of which may or may not be true. If there are conflicting myths, will it be possible for us as players to affect whether they are true or not? (To dip into the more Elder Scrolls style mythic, where reality is partly subjective, belief or disbelief can grant or strip away divinity.) If I lead a crusade to wipe out believers of a contradictory myth, can I make that myth untrue, and take away its magical power? Can we, in play, make new myths, or shape existing ones in other ways?
Yeah, some of it happens naturally, just because in a game where things die and are tracked numerically, that tends to be how the world goes if you don't put in some effort at restoration. We have put some thought into this though -- even in the original Armok, we were hoping to have different courses available for the universe, whether it's fading out, or cyclic, or apocalyptic, or stuck in some perpetual gothic nightmare.
For elements where the default state is "permanent part of the world", it'll take some directed work. The notes we've drawn up from our various inspirations include some rules for change and some power-sourcing, so I'm hopeful we'll have some of this before the end of time. At the same time, it would be cool to have, say, a way that the world could become awakened to magic or connected to another reality as well. I'd like change to be possible, since it is good for stories, but what we'll actually accomplish is unknown.
I'm not personally inclined toward the "belief creates reality" model, but as a fantasy world simulator, DF should probably keep it in mind since it comes up often enough, and it would be funny to watch the ebb and flow of that in a computer simulation that doesn't have any escape hatch when things go horrible wrong. It has some overhead calculations, but those can probably be folded into whatever schism and other demographic calculations we end up needed when we get further with religions in general. But like most things, there's aren't particular plans. In terms of myth creation, we just have those megabeast superstitions in world gen right now. In the 0% fantasy setting, the myths will have to come from somewhere, though when we'll have new ones in play vs. ones that cultures start with is also hard to say. There's a lot to do.
Odd, seems like the inverse of what I noticed Toady's worlds existed as before. I ask about Götterdämmerung, and he talks about "awakening" magic ex nihilo. Maybe Toady really is trying to reverse the Lord of the Rings notion of dying magic.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 01, 2016, 02:59:38 pm
Treating magic as an actual "individual" is a pretty interesting idea!
Post by: Max™ on May 01, 2016, 03:17:44 pm
Right now I have a lot of fun just exploring temples and doing stuff like checking to see if there are neat features to ask the high priests about like lava pools or major use of engravings. Unfortunately it seems there can only be one intact/active temple in a given site, so you can't ask people about the razed/abandoned temples, and indeed have to be inside one with someone visiting/working in the temple to get any of this info.
Oh, actually, do you have any plans to expand the ask for directions options to include things like a temple, library, or tavern? I know you can get pointed to a tavern by asking to say somewhere for the night, so being able to ask where you could pray or find something to read would be fantastic.
Post by: Knight Otu on May 01, 2016, 04:14:29 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 01, 2016, 04:32:07 pm
This FOTF reply is packed to the brim with interesting information, thanks toady!
Treating magic as an actual "individual" is a pretty interesting idea!
Unfortunately, that only applies to player adventurers. Players can learn how to game the system to learn more quickly, but by definition, the AI will not, which means it will be a handicap for your opponents, your followers, and everyone in Fortress Mode.
Toady seems to be going the "only adding one or two hardcoded things maybe twice a year that can be at least marginally balanced, with a need for rebalances after players perform alpha testing over the next few years" model that vampires/werecritters/bogeymen/necromancers went through for magic, which is definitely better than "let's just open the floodgates and let the game be completely crazy gibberish when the AI has a million magic effects it doesn't understand how to use" magic system. That, at least, is like I hoped and expected.
That said, it's more than slightly distressing that Toady says he's deliberately adding something that he fully expects players will find "unsatisfying" in Fortress Mode because it's nothing more than a "your fort gets destroyed because LOL RANDUM MAGIC!" "feature", but I guess for a while, there will just be a magic system you simply have to turn off if you want your game to behave sanely in Fortress Mode. I suppose that's how the old economy worked or the old HFS worked before both of those were removed.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 01, 2016, 04:56:24 pm
This FOTF reply is packed to the brim with interesting information, thanks toady!
Treating magic as an actual "individual" is a pretty interesting idea!
Unfortunately, that only applies to player adventurers. Players can learn how to game the system to learn more quickly, but by definition, the AI will not, which means it will be a handicap for your opponents, your followers, and everyone in Fortress Mode.
Toady seems to be going the "only adding one or two hardcoded things maybe twice a year that can be at least marginally balanced, with a need for rebalances after players perform alpha testing over the next few years" model that vampires/werecritters/bogeymen/necromancers went through for magic, which is definitely better than "let's just open the floodgates and let the game be completely crazy gibberish when the AI has a million magic effects it doesn't understand how to use" magic system. That, at least, is like I hoped and expected.
That said, it's more than slightly distressing that Toady says he's deliberately adding something that he fully expects players will find "unsatisfying" in Fortress Mode because it's nothing more than a "your fort gets destroyed because LOL RANDUM MAGIC!" "feature", but I guess for a while, there will just be a magic system you simply have to turn off if you want your game to behave sanely in Fortress Mode. I suppose that's how the old economy worked or the old HFS worked before both of those were removed.
Reputations work the same with player adventurers that they do for AI, so the AI could become "familiar" with the magic aswell. SO they will be able to use it, just not be able to "exploit" it like players, which is fine.
AI is always at a disadvantage to players but the fact that they will be able to use it at least partially sanely at all is awesome.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 01, 2016, 05:24:48 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 01, 2016, 05:55:15 pm
Reputations work the same with player adventurers that they do for AI, so the AI could become "familiar" with the magic aswell. SO they will be able to use it, just not be able to "exploit" it like players, which is fine.
That's not what I mean.
Yes, it may be possible for the AI to have some sort of experience bar for magic for understanding like crafting skills go from dabbling to legendary. (That said, having experience bars on AI that make the AI even stupider without training would be a massive hazard with DF's already terrible "hey, let's climb this tree, it seems like a shortcut across this valley, what's the worst that could happen, OH ARMOK HOW DO I GET DOWN, oh well, let's just sit here without calling for help until we starve to death" AI...)
My point is that Toady is talking about players learning familiarity with the bounds of the system. That is, like the candy spires, players can learn the probable areas that are safe and the probable areas that are dangerous. The AI, by definition, will never be able to carry over out-of-game knowledge like that. In other words, it is a gamey, anti-simulationist system.
You say that "you're fine with it" if the AI doesn't know how to handle the system, but have you actually really put thought into what that means? A system this wild can almost invariably wind up having easily "cheesed" magic users. (Just look at how you can turn into a vampire to make yourself invisible to the otherwise virtually-impossible-to-beat zombies so you can casually walk up and nonchalantly snap necromancer necks at your leisure. That's just a taste of what expanded magic that the AI doesn't understand will produce.)
If the system means that the spirit's "relationship bar" means that misfires become possible and more likely as the spirit gets angrier, and the spirit gets angrier with more use, then it means that understanding how to throttle use is important. But again, where's that throttle on the AI? What if the AI just turns into a strawberry plant any time it sees an enemy, constantly spamming the spell because it's a "defense" until they wind up having a "misfire" that sets them on fire or makes their brain turn into a plant's and makes the spell permanent, effectively making it a suicide spell when they overuse the spell? (Or if they turn themselves into edible plants in the face of a locust swarm because, hey, those things look scary, and that spell is listed as a "defense"...) Even if you don't do it yourself in adventure mode, you're fine if every enemy you come across in adventure mode just suicide plants themselves? You're fine if all your companions suicide plant yourself? You're fine if it makes Fortress Mode completely unplayable?
AI is always at a disadvantage to players but the fact that they will be able to use it at least partially sanely at all is awesome.
The AI needs to be completely sane, or the game as a whole breaks down. You're not appreciating how vital it is for the AI to be able to have at least some rough parity with the player in understanding how game mechanics work to make the game world have some sense of verisimilitude rather than dropping you out of it from the suicidally stupid dwarves finding more and more ways to kill themselves through things a toddler would understand not to do.
Beyond that, I can't help but notice how vague that "companion" system really is. Either it's going to be like, say, Fallout 4's system of companions that approve or disapprove of specific actions (taboos or rituals), and/or something where you have to sacrifice "presents" for the spirit to gain more affection points. (Honestly, it kind of sounds like Toady might have just made that whole "companion" thing up on the spot, so I wouldn't get to attached to that concept...)
Again, it raises questions of how you could reasonably implement a system for AI learning this stuff. Either they always know how to use their powers (which would be put the player at a disadvantage until they learn the system, but be generally reasonable for gameplay balance,) or they have to learn by gaining "experience" with a system that will kill them because they don't learn that eating meat angers the spirit enough to make their spells backfire until they hit level 10 magic lore.
Again, it raises problems of players knowing that a certain race will always turn into a defenseless strawberry plant if they are threatened, and let players exploit this to the point where all challenge is removed from combat, since there will never again BE combat. You just need to get a little tracking skill, follow to where the footprints end in the strawberry patch, cordon off a sufficient area to ensure they haven't escaped, and set the fires to ensure there is zero chance of escape.
(And for that matter, even if magic is just relegated to "magic missiles" and "fireballs", then it still accomplishes the wonderful role of destroying the combat system that has been painstakingly crafted, and that so many people love and find unique by replacing it with fire magic spam that bypasses armor defenses... The list of unintended consequences is a long one, indeed.)
And yes, this might be the "pessimistic view" in your book, but the fact of computer programming is that the "pessimistic view" will come true unless someone pre-emptively codes safeguards to prevent that from coming to pass. At best, Toady actually takes some of this to heart and tries to actively avoid the worst case scenarios, "proving me wrong", in which case this sort of listing of everything that could go wrong becomes actively constructive. At worst, well, at least I'm hosing down the fires of hype before it completely oversells something Toady has absolutely no capacity or even intention to deliver. Toady has just said, after all, that he has no intention of releasing more than a few hard-coded spell types a year because the AI will need to go with it, while people were saying we should get ready for every spell in the GDC examples to totally be a spell in the next release. After all, you have a thread dedicated to hyping up magical artifacts with full conversation skills (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157257.0) that Toady doesn't seem about to release.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 01, 2016, 06:44:53 pm
Seriously.
I'm just excited for what toady is working on, its not my job to implement these things its toadies job and he clearly is considering at least slightly making it act as a companion or god , eg, the reputation system I mentioned would apply.
You are putting words in my mouth and that isnt cool, I said I'm fine with the AI not being able to exploit magic like players can, I didn't ever say I'm fine with them not knowing how to use it, nor did I say i'm fine with them running around killing themselves with it, obviously its not a good thing if they don't know how to use it.
The AI can't currently exploit the whole vampire->necromancer->mist thrall -> essentially a god exploit either, but its in the game and its fun for players.
The fact that toady is planning to make the AI at least have a fundamental understanding/rudimentary understanding of the magic systems he is adding is COOL, and it will make the game more interesting and that is the point.Sure, it might be broken at first, yes toady needs to consider these things, but no, i'm not worried that it will destroy the game and the game will die because toady is too ambitious. Yes he needs to make them really smart if he wants it to not break the game, which is why he mentioned he probably will rewrite the whole usage hints system to prevent these kinds of idiotic things I am not denying that.
Yes you have a good point, but no I don't think toady will destroy his game.
You construe things I say to mean things that I dont actually mean, when I say "partially sane" I meant that they won't kill themselves with it. I didnt mean, "oh yeah its totally okay if they kill themselves with it.", I want them to be smart enough to use it sanely, however I am totally fine with them not being able to exploit it like players can, you cannot write an AI that can exploit things the way a player can in almost any situation, there is a reason the AI in the game "civilization" cheats. ANd why the AI in df will probably need to have some sort of advantage.
BTW I dont want to sound argumentative, I just get irritated easily heh.
EDIT:
-------further response--------
Quote
Again, it raises questions of how you could reasonably implement a system for AI learning this stuff. Either they always know how to use their powers (which would be put the player at a disadvantage until they learn the system, but be generally reasonable for gameplay balance,) or they have to learn by gaining "experience" with a system that will kill them because they don't learn that eating meat angers the spirit enough to make their spells backfire until they hit level 10 magic lore.
This is an issue I never thought about, currently the only AI in the game that actually eats is the dwarf mode AI. Creatures in adventure mode dont actually eat (except the player). But letting them always know their powers does seem reasonable enough and is probably the only way to do it without a massive amount of work.
Quote
You say that "you're fine with it" if the AI doesn't know how to handle the system, but have you actually really put thought into what that means? A system this wild can almost invariably wind up having easily "cheesed" magic users. (Just look at how you can turn into a vampire to make yourself invisible to the otherwise virtually-impossible-to-beat zombies so you can casually walk up and nonchalantly snap necromancer necks at your leisure. That's just a taste of what expanded magic that the AI doesn't understand will produce.)
As I said, I'm not fine with them not knowing how to use it at all, but I am fine with them not knowing exploits.
This kind of exploit is a very hard problem, although this is due to the opposed_to_life tag so I dont know how this specific situation could apply to NPCs, (btw, I recently attacked a necro tower in 42.06 as an undead and the undead did attack me for some reason, might have been because husks have the "crazed" tag. I have a feeling that what toady will do is give the AI some sort of advantage, so that they are still challenging to players that have figured out exactly how to exploit the worlds magic system. Kind of like as explained earlier making strategy game AI know how to cheat. Though this is sadly anti-simulationist.
Post by: Andmore on May 01, 2016, 06:45:28 pm
Now, I was wondering about worldgen events becoming myths. Is this something you've considered?
(Or am I misunderstanding the myth generator?)
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 01, 2016, 08:05:05 pm
Thanks, Toady!
Now, I was wondering about worldgen events becoming myths. Is this something you've considered?
(Or am I misunderstanding the myth generator?)
What do you mean, do you mean the myth generator output being put into legends mode? In that case that is probably the best place to put it (also players should probably be prompted with it after the world is created (or before they embark) so that they know generally how the world works so that when their dwarves start throwing balls of rock at people they know that is because dwarves in that world can do it.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 01, 2016, 08:47:18 pm
Thanks, Toady!
Now, I was wondering about worldgen events becoming myths. Is this something you've considered?
(Or am I misunderstanding the myth generator?)
If you are asking Toady himself, you should limegreen your question to highlight it for him.
[color=limegreen]question[/color]
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on May 01, 2016, 09:17:45 pm
Spoiler: if you're wondering how she typed that (click to show/hide)
Post by: Putnam on May 01, 2016, 09:50:54 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on May 01, 2016, 09:51:37 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 01, 2016, 09:54:40 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 01, 2016, 10:08:24 pm
Lame. I don't need to do that [i]at all[/i].
You are a wizard, Putnam!
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 01, 2016, 10:25:42 pm
You are putting words in my mouth and that isnt cool, I said I'm fine with the AI not being able to exploit magic like players can, I didn't ever say I'm fine with them not knowing how to use it, nor did I say i'm fine with them running around killing themselves with it, obviously its not a good thing if they don't know how to use it.
It's not putting words in your mouth, it's an examination of the likely logical consequences of what is being talked about.
I didn't make up the notion of a spell to turn yourself into a plant being put into the game, I simply listed off the many, many ways such a spell could do more harm than good in an AI that, almost definitionally, cannot make the kinds of judgements that would be required to make such an extremely situational spell do more good than harm.
Getting excited to the point where you lose your critical thought as to the consequences is exactly what I'm chiding against. You're expecting the moon, and then waving your hand and saying Toady will somehow find a way to deliver the impossible in record time. (And you're so excited for what it does in Adventurer Mode, for that matter, you don't seem to stop to consider the consequences in Fortress Mode important.)
And yes, Toady will break the game with major updates. He does it every time. Again, I'll just point back to the unstoppable werecritter epidemics that eradicated all civilizations the first update they were added in. Or, you know, the giant flaming mess that was the new Military screen in 0.31.01.
Sure, it might be broken at first, yes toady needs to consider these things, but no, i'm not worried that it will destroy the game and the game will die because toady is too ambitious. Yes he needs to make them really smart if he wants it to not break the game, which is why he mentioned he probably will rewrite the whole usage hints system to prevent these kinds of idiotic things I am not denying that.
Yes you have a good point, but no I don't think toady will destroy his game.
If the argument is about "DESTROYING DWARF FORTRESS FOREVAR!!!1", then you're putting words in my mouth. :P
However, again, if we're talking about needing to rewrite the AI to actually sanely handle these things, then history has proven that time spent gaming out how, exactly, these sorts of interactions are likely to be broken, and demonstrating how to pre-emptively fix those problems would be time decently well-spent, and it would also help keep people down on the ground with realistic expectations.
Just looking at how vampires have worked has been a good example of Toady needing to have all the sundry consequences pointed out before he can actually clamp down all the major edge cases: Vampires first came in with thousands of dwarf skull necklaces (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5055), which was totally not obvious or anything, including somehow juggling hundreds in their hands (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5296) because their necks were obviously full up on skulls. Vampires at first would brag to adventurers about their thousands of humanoid kills (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5603) they got while spending exactly "5 years" in every job. He only recently set up "vampire hunts" to stop the depopulation that could occur from a large vampire population in the sewers (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5432).
You construe things I say to mean things that I dont actually mean, when I say "partially sane" I meant that they won't kill themselves with it. I didnt mean, "oh yeah its totally okay if they kill themselves with it.", I want them to be smart enough to use it sanely, however I am totally fine with them not being able to exploit it like players can, you cannot write an AI that can exploit things the way a player can in almost any situation, there is a reason the AI in the game "civilization" cheats. ANd why the AI in df will probably need to have some sort of advantage.
You talk as though DF doesn't already "cheat". DF cheats when Toady has to give up on sieges being a challenge, and instead has to create 50-ton flying webbers backed up by fire-breathing T-rexes made of bronze just to keep players from steamrolling everything in the game with steel, training, and numbers that the AI can't hope to match, much less all the sundry automated traps players can throw at it. He adds amphibiousness, heat immunity, the ability to just plain make traps and pressure plates not apply to creatures, adds NO_STUN, and all sorts of other tokens that exist explicitly to counter common, easy methods of beating the AI. These are all cheats already, that all exist solely to prevent the trivialization of what few threats remain... And even that doesn't work, so the HFS has to rely upon literally infinite numbers of giant flying syndrome-spitters to keep players from trivializing colonizing the HFS.
You trivialize letting DF cheat more than it already does, but what that does is ultimately make the game impossible to play without exploits. (At least, more than DF already does demand exploits...) Further, I have to ask how this could possibly be balanced when the game randomly will or won't have magic, or what magic is available is utterly random. Maybe some magic exists as a "hard counter" to another otherwise powerful magic... but just doesn't exist in this one world, so that powerful magic is now unstoppable. (To make an example using extant game mechanics, imagine if dwarves had the power to web, and no other webbing creature existed. Wouldn't that just slightly wreck game balance?)
You also are trivializing what it takes to make the AI not kill itself with its new powers... because, once again, DF has a really bad track record of introducing new AI routines that don't involve repeatedly killing anyone who has them until at least a few months of updates. (Again, let's see a show of hands of how many people lost dwarves to climbing a tree and then starving!) You're simply stating Toady can do it without putting any real effort into considering what it takes to actually make such things happen.
The AI rewrites are easily the most difficult thing to balance in any game, and Toady has a tendency to leave things with see-sawing game balance pretty wildly before he tunes things in quite right. Things like trying to find the set of circumstances where turning yourself into a plant wouldn't be rendering yourself defenseless but a clever camouflage are so incredibly nuanced that they basically do not exist in computer games that have people dedicated solely to improving the AI; Again, that's why I had that side-rant about why most computer games just rely upon absolute invisibility instead of worry about sight cones, since it's simply easier to handle.
This isn't hyperbole. This isn't pessimism. This is pattern recognition. The AI for the new magic will be broken. It's just a question of how absurdly self-destructive it will be.
What I'm saying is that even "merely" asking for the AI not to kill itself with the new magic powers is still asking too much. The best we can even hope to do is find the most unavoidably self-destructive things and shout to Toady that he remember to forestall those cases and edge cases.
This is an issue I never thought about, currently the only AI in the game that actually eats is the dwarf mode AI. Creatures in adventure mode dont actually eat (except the player). But letting them always know their powers does seem reasonable enough and is probably the only way to do it without a massive amount of work.Again, "thinking about it" is what I'm trying to push...
Anyway, creatures in Fortress Mode DO eat, and I'm more worried about Fortress Mode because the interface for controlling Fortress Mode is necessarily going to be more indirect, and therefore difficult to keep sane.
Dwarves don't even meet their own needs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157394.0), even if they will complain about not meeting their own needs right now. (That is, dwarves that complain about a lack of socialization will still go to the library to read instead of the tavern to socialize. Dwarves will want to get married when they are asexual or have "commitment issues" that mean they refuse to marry. Dwarves will want to claim items that are in your fortress, but have no AI routine to actually just grab them.) Just because dwarves "know" what is bad for their magic, doesn't mean they will actually avoid what is bad for them, nor will there necessarily be anything you could do to help them avoid those actions. Meat, obviously, would be easy to avoid with fortress-wide bans if it were your primary race, although if you had multi-cultural forts, then things become more and more complex. Also, if the taboo is not food, but no dancing on Tuesdays, what are you going to do, flood the tavern to interrupt tavern-goers every Tuesday? Some players can handle that, but most will need a real interface overhaul to even keep playing the game.
It's honestly these interface overhauls I'd find more interesting than anything. Maybe not as flashy as gaining a new magic spell, but having some real, actual control to direct behaviors with dwarves could yield some extremely useful behaviors for modders or those who are simply inclined towards more elaborately micromanaged dwarven behaviors... although I'll need to put that in the next post.
Post by: Max™ on May 01, 2016, 10:33:08 pm
Lame. I don't need to do that [i]at all[/i].Nonbreaking [b]spaces[/b] ftw!
Incidentally regarding the "climb up a tree and starve to death" thing, that's a specific dwarf mode thing, I've never seen adventure mode npcs climb a tree unless they were chasing me or trying to get away from something like fires I set.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 01, 2016, 11:11:49 pm
Spoiler: Toady quotes, including a long, old one (click to show/hide)
Toady, how will players be expected to control dwarves with procedural magic, or procedurally created whatevers with magical powers that have dangerous effects?
Will their uses always be automated through usage hints, even if, say, "fading", to use the GDC example can mean that creatures will eventually kill themselves if players have no means of throttling their use outside extreme or indirect methods like forcing dwarves apart from enemies or whatever situation triggers use of magic? Or will there be ways to script conditions under which your charges can use magic or are told to hold their fire?
Likewise, is there going to be automated "needs"-style attempt to discharge negative consequences of magic like "fading" in the same way that a dwarf automatically goes to feed themselves when huger gets too high? Is this going to be some zone like a hospital or tavern, or would it be something you handle through goods production, or some sort of social behavior you need to script through some new interface?
Likewise likewise, magic in the GDC example uses "fuel" items to power magic - is this something you expect to be some sort of extension of the military uniforms to have fortress members equip "magic ammo", even if it means all civilians have to wear military uniforms? (Something of an exploit, but one players use on anyone not a miner or woodcutter, regardless...) Is this, alternately, something that you see occupying a different interface, like a unified magic-instruction interface?
Finally, if we're talking about libraries being places of magic research that blow up your fortress, will that mean there are methods of controlling what research actually takes place? To use the HFS example, one can always not dig, and one can have a good sense of how far you are digging to get a sense of what risks you are taking. Procedural tech trees, meanwhile, cannot so easily physically convey the concept of that danger, and is there even a way to stop such fortress-destroying research without outright shutting the library down or resorting to de facto demanding savescumming from players to prevent arbitrary fortress death?
(Also, for the record, I'd rather have player-editable usage hints, since that, at least, means the playerbase has the power to fix some exploits and problems, even if it also means the playerbase can create them, as well. Button's Modest Mod in particular comes to mind.)
Spoiler: squicky consequences of strawberry plants (click to show/hide)
Post by: Bumber on May 02, 2016, 03:47:43 am
I was thinking the same thing.Spoiler: squicky consequences of strawberry plants (click to show/hide)
The dwarf picks a strawberry.
The strawberry plant's geldables are torn away.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 02, 2016, 03:56:15 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 02, 2016, 04:30:36 am
Firstly, the argument presumes transformation takes place with corresponding parts to corresponding parts (where is a strawberry plant's brain located?), rather than some vague transformation of the whole.I was thinking the same thing.Spoiler: squicky consequences of strawberry plants (click to show/hide)
The dwarf picks a strawberry.
The strawberry plant's geldables are torn away.
Secondly, while flowers sort of correspond to genitalia, they're single use, and many plants (including strawberries) produce multiple reproduction units, so a more reasonable correspondence would be temporary sterility (because the next egg/current set of sperms is lost). One might consider miscarriage as well, but fruits are evolved to be eaten as a means of spreading the seeds (which often survive the passage through the digestive tract and then gets planted together with a lot of nutrients), while children are not. I doubt seeds of this magical strawberry would be viable when "planted", though...
Thus, I'd say the loss of a finger (or toe, or ear) would be a suitable representation of loss of "essence", as temporary sterility means nothing in game play terms (even less than fatigue).
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 02, 2016, 10:21:01 am
"Oh hey, you got me a bouquet of plant dicks! How romantic!"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Firstly, the argument presumes transformation takes place with corresponding parts to corresponding parts (where is a strawberry plant's brain located?), rather than some vague transformation of the whole.
Secondly, while flowers sort of correspond to genitalia, they're single use, and many plants (including strawberries) produce multiple reproduction units, so a more reasonable correspondence would be temporary sterility (because the next egg/current set of sperms is lost). One might consider miscarriage as well, but fruits are evolved to be eaten as a means of spreading the seeds (which often survive the passage through the digestive tract and then gets planted together with a lot of nutrients), while children are not. I doubt seeds of this magical strawberry would be viable when "planted", though...
Thus, I'd say the loss of a finger (or toe, or ear) would be a suitable representation of loss of "essence", as temporary sterility means nothing in game play terms (even less than fatigue).
A "suitable representation" how?
Even by your own argument it's a completely unsuitable choice, since fruits are meant to come off and be eaten, and are easily replaced. These are traits that fingers do not share.
Even if you want to avoid the obvious implications of the reproductive system, then hair at least shares the quality of growing back.
Or more simply put, there's a reason why were creatures have automatic regeneration upon transformation in this game. It obviates the need to worry about what sort of damage should be represented when a were-creature loses a tail then transforms into a tail-less humanoid.
Post by: Dirst on May 02, 2016, 10:47:15 am
That said, a relatively simple way to "pay for" damage is blood loss. Not sure exactly how that is handled in the current DF health system though... any symptoms other than "pale" then "dead"?
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 02, 2016, 10:49:39 am
The change in biomass during transformation makes the whole thing silly anyway. It's magic.
It is interesting when a magical system has a specific logic to it. It doesn't have to, and indeed shouldn't, correspond to the real-world logic. But still. XP
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 02, 2016, 11:04:50 am
And yes, auto repair on transformation makes things easy. However:
"Visit the Deepstubborn regenerative clinic, now using the acclaimed 'Strawberry' regenerative technique. No ailment too severe to treat*
*Death not included. Nor are...".
Crutch walking would be a useless skill, unless the magic belongs to some advanced tier requiring a lot of research to master.
Post by: fearlesslittletoaster on May 02, 2016, 11:25:14 am
I realize this could also be rather frustrating in some ways, but from my personal perspective I find the idea of engineering around the problem really entertaining. I would be tickled pink if I got to design a series of "containment protocols" and I would love to have a fortress end something like,
"Urist ran through the hallway, away from the screams of the militia dying to buy him a handfull of breaths, a few hundred more heartbeats. Thank Armok that was all it would take. He passed the last of the fine bronze doors to the living quarters, saw the plain granite door to the room. They'd laughed and toasted to the idea when it was first brought up, but the scholars had been insistent that a plan be put in place. Now he knew the learned ones had been wiser than anyone gave them credit for, though not wise enough to avoid whatever mistake had brought the THINGS through. The door opened at the push of a finger, swinging on perfectly balanced hinges. The lever stood alone on the rough stone floor, and Urist dove for it with the desperate eagerness usually reserved for booze and better socks.
The lever moved easily enough. He heard the shattering crash as the very heart of the mountain descending to block the exits, even over the screams that were right outside now. The screaming went on a while, maybe minutes or maybe forever, and then for a brief moment silence reigned. Then the door shuddered with the first blow, but the warmness creeping up the walls from a floor now almost too hot to touch meant no matter what happened the THINGS would die. Urist clenched his fists and waited, knowing he could get one swing in before they were one him. For all the good it would do, but a dwarf didn't die without a fight. The door shook and began to crack and he had a few moments to wonder if the blood of the stones or the THINGS would get him first. But really it didn't matter. They wouldn't get out into the world and that was all that counted."
Post by: Button on May 02, 2016, 11:58:09 am
Toady, would having unpredictable and dangerous magic be discovered in fortress mode really be a bad thing? Setting up a library, and presumably letting people into it who ponder magical things, would be a player choice. If the fact that things could go horribly horribly wrong was known then it would just be another thing that could be really... !!FUN!!
I realize this could also be rather frustrating in some ways, but from my personal perspective I find the idea of engineering around the problem really entertaining. I would be tickled pink if I got to design a series of "containment protocols"
This isn't really a question. Nonetheless, ditto. Containment protocols are a blast.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 02, 2016, 12:20:06 pm
It is interesting when a magical system has a specific logic to it. It doesn't have to, and indeed shouldn't, correspond to the real-world logic. But still. XP
Tell that to Star Trek's teleporters, replicators, FTL, and subspace ansibles including the ability to see enemy ships light minutes away and travelling at FTL speeds in real-time such that they can see FTL weapons traveling towards them, yet nevertheless have people treating it like it's real science.
So far as most fiction is concerned, the only difference between "magic" and "science" is whether it comes from waving a stick that trails sparkles versus some sort of "machine".
Even the most magical of thinking, however, is based upon, if not real logic, at least association as a form of pseudo-logic. Feathers are associated with flying creatures, so magic involving flight that uses material components tends to incorporate feathers. (And in earlier times, people would assume that if you wanted to make a flying machine, it would be better to at least paint some feathers on it, because that would give it the strength of birds through symbolism. Sort of like painting something red to make it go faster...)
So far as this argument goes, the "logic" seems to be that "it's on the ends of a plant, so that must correspond to a finger or toe".
A suitable representation of "essence loss". A loss of a finger probably doesn't have any game play effect, but losing too many on one hand at least should have an effect. If hair had any use, I could easily accept all or parts of it falling out (or growing white/grey/purple...). If we're dealing with replaceable stuff that provides a game play penalty, blood loss might have done it, but it won't cut it with the current implementation. If we're dealing with what's currently available, a finger "mangled beyond recognition" might do it. Permanent destruction of the reproductive system is too harsh on one end, as most players probably don't want to give that up, even it it actually isn't used, and too lenient on the other end (once the payment for the license has been made, any subsequent magic abuse is free).
And yes, auto repair on transformation makes things easy. However:
"Visit the Deepstubborn regenerative clinic, now using the acclaimed 'Strawberry' regenerative technique. No ailment too severe to treat*
*Death not included. Nor are...".
Crutch walking would be a useless skill, unless the magic belongs to some advanced tier requiring a lot of research to master.
The werecivet commando team (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146908.msg5904222;topicseen#msg5904222) begs to differ. They've been through Hell. [spoiler]Literally. Multiple tours of duty. Also, losing their families and ripping one of their own apart wasn't pleasant, either.[/url]
Anyway, again, a strawberry plant is not only not harmed by the plucking of a strawberry. It is, again by your own admission, what a strawberry plant is designed to do, and is only as "harmed" as the energy it takes to generate the strawberry to begin with. You're demanding a "game play penalty" that isn't logically warranted as a "suitable replacement".
Actually, there is a good model for this particular case of transformation into a food-producer in the transformations of NetHack into female oviparous monsters (http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Egg) - laying an egg costs you the nutrition value of that egg. (You can eat your own eggs to regain the nutritional value - which is something real birds do with unfertilized eggs, since why let perfectly good calories go to waste?)
I also never said that auto-regen was a perfect model, I said that it was there for a reason. As in, Toady put it there because these sorts of transformations cannot be made to have "parity" in an easily-created procedural way, and requires a giant set of case-by-case rulings such that it was easier for Toady to just say, "Screw it, they all heal to full just so I don't have to deal with this mess!"
Post by: Cruxador on May 02, 2016, 12:25:47 pm
the "belief creates reality" modelWell when you simplify it that much, it doesn't sound very deep, does it? I think he meant more about divinity being a state of mind rather than some some "I believe it so it's true" 40k ork thing. The sort of stuff that comes up in the (currently growing in popularity) more mystic fantasy which draws heavily on Indian myth for inspiration. Like the works of Kirkbride, which I believe he was referring to, or something like Kill Six Billion Demons. From stuff you've talked about, I know most of your fantasy reading tends to be grounded in a more western paradigm, but have you kept up with other fantasy movements like this? If not, it might interest you to at least read what there is of the K6BD comic, and/or perhaps the roleplaying game. Of course there's a lot more writings to go with that, which is common to the subgenre such as it is, but that's more peripheral.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 02, 2016, 12:40:19 pm
Even the most magical of thinking, however, is based upon, if not real logic, at least association as a form of pseudo-logic. Feathers are associated with flying creatures, so magic involving flight that uses material components tends to incorporate feathers. (And in earlier times, people would assume that if you wanted to make a flying machine, it would be better to at least paint some feathers on it, because that would give it the strength of birds through symbolism. Sort of like painting something red to make it go faster...)
Even then, a magic system can have a method to it. Still, like I said, I suggested the idea of them having a logic, not being a science. Even then you can have a logic for magical functions that behaves in a scientific manner.
Though yes, when you bring soft scfi into the equation it becomes more a matter of flavor details and general themes. :V
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 02, 2016, 01:04:53 pm
Toady, would having unpredictable and dangerous magic be discovered in fortress mode really be a bad thing? Setting up a library, and presumably letting people into it who ponder magical things, would be a player choice. If the fact that things could go horribly horribly wrong was known then it would just be another thing that could be really... !!FUN!!
I realize this could also be rather frustrating in some ways, but from my personal perspective I find the idea of engineering around the problem really entertaining. I would be tickled pink if I got to design a series of "containment protocols" and I would love to have a fortress end something like,
That presumes there would be ways to engineer around the problem, and not, as most representations (including the one TOADY JUST GAVE) of the magic system would have it, simply having a text box pop up informing you that your fortress crumbled for no good reason because you were stupid enough to have a library. Again, I point to the 2d game, where the game ended "unsatisfyingly" because you just have a percentage chance of instant game over with no chance to engineer around anything.
The ONLY way to "engineer around" such a problem is to just not have magic or just not build a library, which is basically the same as making a gameplay feature that nobody ever wants to turn on. (Which again brings me back to the old economy and coins that you could basically never use because it only wound up with your fortress flooded in individual coins occupying whole tiles of a fortress, while dwarves desperately ran around trying to carry enough coins to afford a single drink of dwarven wine...) Whenever I hear of people wanting to add magic that destroys your whole fortress "because it would be Fun", I can't help but think they'd be equally happy adding new "gameplay features" that "helpfully" corrupt everyone's savegames whenever you play a certain length of time, because that would be a "Fun" way to force everyone's games to end, too! It's merely advocating for the ruination of the games of people who want to seriously build forts for your own jollies.
The problem is that engineering exists in the "physical space" of the game. Water and magma exist in physical space, and you as a player, have the capacity to engineer physical space. (A video I can't link enough on why being able to represent your gameplay problems and possible solutions in physical space is so important in games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSBn77_h_6Q).) Dwarf Fortress is filled with emergent behavior specifically because so many of its mechanics occupy the same physical space, and therefore have the capacity to interact with one another in a manner that creates geometrically increasing complexity per mechanic.
Magic, meanwhile, tends to be just arbitrary stuff that happens in its own little partitioned vacuum which nothing else can affect. It doesn't exist in physical space unless you find some way of forcing magic to be directly tied to the physical landscape or its inhabitants. (Which is why I've argued for such a system in the past (http://[url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76578.0).)
Magic without physical components or at least some sort of player-controlled behavior scripting is unengineerable. Magic that is random without those components is not just a Wild Magic Table, it's a Wild Magic Table that gets rolled without your permission.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 02, 2016, 01:19:35 pm
Even the most magical of thinking, however, is based upon, if not real logic, at least association as a form of pseudo-logic. Feathers are associated with flying creatures, so magic involving flight that uses material components tends to incorporate feathers. (And in earlier times, people would assume that if you wanted to make a flying machine, it would be better to at least paint some feathers on it, because that would give it the strength of birds through symbolism. Sort of like painting something red to make it go faster...)
Even then, a magic system can have a method to it. Still, like I said, I suggested the idea of them having a logic, not being a science. Even then you can have a logic for magical functions that behaves in a scientific manner.
Though yes, when you bring soft scfi into the equation it becomes more a matter of flavor details and general themes. :V
It's an important distinction.
Logic is based upon assumptions. Those assumptions can be bizarre and completely outside what one would normally consider rational or realistic, but provided one abided by the consequences of those assumptions in a thoroughly consistent way, it would be logical thought.
For example, most puzzle games are based upon arbitrary rules like three of the same color disappearing or filling an entire row leading to the row disappearing, but what follows from that is a set of completely logical consequences. Tetris is totally logical, even if based upon completely arbitrary assumptions.
By contrast, what many people confuse as "logical" is really something better described as "traditional associations". People oppose "mixing fantasy with sci-fi" because they are traditionally described as somehow different, even when their underlying principles wind up often running on the same tropes. A machine is "logically" not magical only because that's not how it is traditionally presented.
The biotic powers in Mass Effect, for example, are pretty much straight-up magic powers taken straight from BioWare's traditional crowd-control role for the wizard given the veneer of sci-fi. There is little logical reasoning behind why having exposure to chemicals gives one the power to telekinetically paralyze and levitate another creature hiding behind cover a large distance away, even if you take the assumption that there's an "element zero" that can control its own mass. (It doesn't mean you can mentally control this element only with sinking in points from level-ups or that it can project this control onto other substances.)
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 02, 2016, 01:35:05 pm
Quote
However, again, if we're talking about needing to rewrite the AI to actually sanely handle these things, then history has proven that time spent gaming out how, exactly, these sorts of interactions are likely to be broken, and demonstrating how to pre-emptively fix those problems would be time decently well-spent, and it would also help keep people down on the ground with realistic expectations.
There is no way in hell he will be able to think of every single edge case in a game this complex no matter how hard he tries to do it. The game is unfinished, and the community has stuck around through the craziness and the craziness is part of the experience. Toady does try to think of edge cases and he has talked about this in the past, but people will always find one he hasn't thought about. It will never be perfect right off the bat, these kinds of things never are, sure you can try to get him to push for that, but it is unreasonable to expect him to somehow think of every single edge case.
Sure the community can try to help, but there will most definitely be at least one completely crazy bug no one thought about.
Quote
You talk as though DF doesn't already "cheat". DF cheats when Toady has to give up on sieges being a challenge, and instead has to create 50-ton flying webbers backed up by fire-breathing T-rexes made of bronze just to keep players from steamrolling everything in the game with steel, training, and numbers that the AI can't hope to match, much less all the sundry automated traps players can throw at it. He adds amphibiousness, heat immunity, the ability to just plain make traps and pressure plates not apply to creatures, adds NO_STUN, and all sorts of other tokens that exist explicitly to counter common, easy methods of beating the AI. These are all cheats already, that all exist solely to prevent the trivialization of what few threats remain... And even that doesn't work, so the HFS has to rely upon literally infinite numbers of giant flying syndrome-spitters to keep players from trivializing colonizing the HFS.
How am I trivializing the AI cheating? Didn't you already say the best way to keep the game balanced is to allow them to have full access to all the spells, isnt that cheating? And isn't that exactly what I said aswell?
Quote from: YOU
Either they always know how to use their powers (which would be put the player at a disadvantage until they learn the system, but be generally reasonable for gameplay balance,)^
Quote from: me
But letting them always know their powers does seem reasonable enough and is probably the only way to do it without a massive amount of work.
Its like you are arguing against yourself.
In that case I guess both of us are trivializing it eh? :P
But seriously.
I understand that toady needs to limit cheating but I also understand that the only way for a game to be actually challenging is to either create a genius AI or allow cheating for the AI and df will likely do the latter and does do the latter and I AM fine with that as long as the player still has a chance. And currently teh player does still have a chance (in fact the game is rather easy at this point) despite the AI cheating.
Quote
This isn't hyperbole. This isn't pessimism. This is pattern recognition. The AI for the new magic will be broken. It's just a question of how absurdly self-destructive it will be.
Yes it will be broken and yes I think we should avoid as much brokenness as possible.
Yes the ai shouldn't be blowing itself up in thermonuclear explosion every few minutes in your library.
(well I guess it would only happen once)
I think toady needs to start with combat only spells actually and move out from there as new mechanics are added, I think its probably the only way for him to create AI this reactive.
Quote
You trivialize letting DF cheat more than it already does, but what that does is ultimately make the game impossible to play without exploits. (At least, more than DF already does demand exploits...) Further, I have to ask how this could possibly be balanced when the game randomly will or won't have magic, or what magic is available is utterly random. Maybe some magic exists as a "hard counter" to another otherwise powerful magic... but just doesn't exist in this one world, so that powerful magic is now unstoppable. (To make an example using extant game mechanics, imagine if dwarves had the power to web, and no other webbing creature existed. Wouldn't that just slightly wreck game balance?)
...snip...
What I'm saying is that even "merely" asking for the AI not to kill itself with the new magic powers is still asking too much. The best we can even hope to do is find the most unavoidably self-destructive things and shout to Toady that he remember to forestall those cases and edge cases.
Didnt you already say that the ai has to be "completely sane" and in your previous post?
Quote from: YOU
The AI needs to be completely sane, or the game as a whole breaks down. You're not appreciating how vital it is for the AI to be able to have at least some rough parity with the player in understanding how game mechanics work to make the game world have some sense of verisimilitude rather than dropping you out of it from the suicidally stupid dwarves finding more and more ways to kill themselves through things a toddler would understand not to do.
Which is the same thing I said when I said yes the AI needs to not kill itself at least most of the time here.
Quote from: me
Yes he needs to make them really smart if he wants it to not break the game, which is why he mentioned he probably will rewrite the whole usage hints system to prevent these kinds of idiotic things I am not denying that.^
Anyway, the thing about ai not doing really crazy instant suicide things as you stated is exactly what I meant in my last 3 or more posts on the subject. i'm not sure how you could interpret what I said any differently from that so lets move on. Yes we should limit this sort of thing, I agree about that.
Quote
It's not putting words in your mouth, it's an examination of the likely logical consequences of what is being talked about.
I didn't make up the notion of a spell to turn yourself into a plant being put into the game, I simply listed off the many, many ways such a spell could do more harm than good in an AI that, almost definitionally, cannot make the kinds of judgements that would be required to make such an extremely situational spell do more good than harm.
Getting excited to the point where you lose your critical thought as to the consequences is exactly what I'm chiding against. You're expecting the moon, and then waving your hand and saying Toady will somehow find a way to deliver the impossible in record time. (And you're so excited for what it does in Adventurer Mode, for that matter, you don't seem to stop to consider the consequences in Fortress Mode important.)
I never claimed you made the whole ridiculous plant argument up. And in fact I believe I addressed that kind of thing in my previous post aswell no?
When I admitted that this would be hard to program?
And toady addressed that in the FOTF reply aswell didnt he?
Yes I believe he did....
Quote from: ToadyOne
Players will use them more creatively than NPC magic users -- that's true of everything in the game already. If you find that you lost an NPC you were chasing because it had turned itself into a strawberry plant near some other strawberry plants (because they have a routine that goes that far in the use of such an effect), then that's cool. If (when hunger etc. is implemented) you find yourself feeding a starving companion by turning yourself into a strawberry plant in a way an NPC wouldn't have thought of, then that's cool. If you end up not having a finger when you change back, then that would be cool too.
I dont see anything wrong with expecting toady to accomplish all the tasks he has set out to do. And as are outlined in numerous places on his website.
No I don't play fort mode much and no I don't really care about the balance of fort mode , ill admit that., yeah I prefer adventure mode, and toady even said in this FOTF reply that there are alot of things he will put in that arn't practical in fort mode and you know what, i'm fine with it. Most of the three-toe stories are adventure mode related anyway.
Yeah, I realize strawberry plant is kind of (it is,) a really dumb spell idea for a game like DF, and I have said this in previous posts.
And I agree that you have to be really careful when making AI like this (as I stated earlier) , I understand that there are problems, But I want to see toady accomplish things that seem impossible (This game wouldn't exist if toady hadn't tried achieving the impossible) so encouraging it in my opinion isn't really that bad.
I essentially think we have reached an agreement of sorts, despite misunderstanding each others posts sometimes.
Also yes, I do tend to get overly excited about things, but thats just how I am , I get excited easily. I dont see any reason people shouldn't be excited about these new systems either if they love dwarf fortress.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 02, 2016, 01:38:36 pm
the "belief creates reality" modelWell when you simplify it that much, it doesn't sound very deep, does it? I think he meant more about divinity being a state of mind rather than some some "I believe it so it's true" 40k ork thing. The sort of stuff that comes up in the (currently growing in popularity) more mystic fantasy which draws heavily on Indian myth for inspiration. Like the works of Kirkbride, which I believe he was referring to, or something like Kill Six Billion Demons. From stuff you've talked about, I know most of your fantasy reading tends to be grounded in a more western paradigm, but have you kept up with other fantasy movements like this? If not, it might interest you to at least read what there is of the K6BD comic, and/or perhaps the roleplaying game. Of course there's a lot more writings to go with that, which is common to the subgenre such as it is, but that's more peripheral.
Just to further explain what I was referring to...
Spoiler: rambly stuff on another game's lore (click to show/hide)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 02, 2016, 01:58:25 pm
There is no way in hell he will be able to think of every single edge case in a game this complex no matter how hard he tries to do it. The game is unfinished, and the community has stuck around through the craziness and the craziness is part of the experience. Toady does try to think of edge cases and he has talked about this in the past, but people will always find one he hasn't thought about. It will never be perfect right off the bat, these kinds of things never are, sure you can try to get him to push for that, but it is unreasonable to expect him to somehow think of every single edge case.
Sure the community can try to help, but there will most definitely be at least one completely crazy bug no one thought about.
I never said that a release must be perfect, I merely cautioned against expecting it would be a release with hundreds of spells that don't cause absolute mayhem with game balance.
If you're trying to say that one shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, then that's by all means an endorsement of everyone coming around to list the many possible edge case failures for Toady, even if not every one can be found, rather than dismissing such things as pessimism.
How am I trivializing the AI cheating? Didn't you already say the best way to keep the game balanced is to allow them to have full access to all the spells, isnt that cheating? And isn't that exactly what I said aswell?
[...]
I understand that toady needs to limit cheating but I also understand that the only way for a game to be actually challenging is to either create a genius AI or allow cheating for the AI and df will likely do the latter and does do the latter and I AM fine with that as long as the player still has a chance.
My point is that there is a limit to which cheating can be stretched without making the game impossible to play as anything other than an exploit-memorization game. An army of 50-ton steel blobs with full-body necrosis syndromes is essentially impossible for any military to defeat, and functionally requires obsidianization traps.
The cheating also needs to be balanced for both players that can randomly have access to virtually any type of magic, all types of magic, or no magic... which is an absurdly difficult ask.
And I agree that you have to be really careful when making AI like this (as I stated earlier) , I understand that there are problems, But I want to see toady accomplish things that seem impossible (This game wouldn't exist if toady hadn't tried achieving the impossible) so encouraging it in my opinion isn't really that bad.
Toady doesn't accomplish the (actually) impossible. At best, he accomplishes the unprecedented, but he has mainly just done things that nobody would put the time or effort into doing, or which people believed would not be popular enough to warrant doing.
What I'm opposed to is simply saying "Toady can do this thing that I can't even clearly define or have thought about all the way through, even if it's impossible because Toady does impossible stuff all the time!"
It's like saying, "Hey, people said making a plane that could go through the sound barrier was 'impossible', and now they say time machines are 'impossible', so clearly, time machines are going to exist any minute, now!" No matter what the memes say, DF isn't going to become self-aware any time soon, and DF has a nasty tendency to make memes that fans angrily stick to as though it were true. (Like, say, female dwarves with beards...) Magic, in particular, is a hotbed for asking for the impossible or the badly-thought-out, which is why it demands strong pushback to ask people to think through what they really want, and consider the impact it will have on people with different play styles than one's own.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 02, 2016, 02:04:37 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 02, 2016, 02:06:13 pm
This is still one hell of a derail. ;w;
I think it is perfectly on topic actually.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 02, 2016, 02:13:57 pm
Post by: Button on May 02, 2016, 02:20:25 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 02, 2016, 02:21:09 pm
I did not deny were transformation damage repair was there for a reason, and it was a reasonable one. I AM arguing that if regenerative transformation can be done more or less at will, much of the damage system and living with its consequences goes down the drain (just like farming becomes obsolete if you just can wave your hand to get food). Thus, the transformation regen strategy might need to either be modified, or some restriction (scarce resource/side effects/magic research level[not a good option]/...) be in place to not make it the standard treatment.
When it comes to the "magic research can blow up the fortress" discussion, I think such dangerous research would be disallowed by default (so players would actively have to enable on a lab by lab basis, and be allowed to disable it again at a later point, if desired), and this research should be placed into some kind of branches, so you actually CAN provide counter measures/contingencies. Portal research might let through nasty critters, for instance, but they should obey normal critter rules (such as being restricted by walls and drawbridges) unless some specific research is performed which might let through ghost like critters (is there any way to stop such things at all?). A "Research = End of the World (or at least fortress) sooner or later" logic is rather unpalatable to anyone who doesn't actively pursue that kind of destruction. To avoid misunderstandings, I want to stress "normal" magical research should be there, only HFS level sub types should be in the "play with this at your own risk, and you ought to know what you do, and expect things to blow up regardless" category.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 02, 2016, 02:29:20 pm
Yeah, this has just turned into the NW_Kohaku Yells A Lot Hour.
Don't be unfair, im yelling alot aswell.
Post by: peasant cretin on May 02, 2016, 02:51:18 pm
Yeah, this has just turned into the NW_Kohaku and Untrustedlife YellsA Lot Hour.
Don't be unfair, im yelling alot aswell.
Magic!
Post by: fearlesslittletoaster on May 02, 2016, 02:53:13 pm
This isn't really a question. Nonetheless, ditto. Containment protocols are a blast.
I suppose you are right about it not being a proper question. I just can't think how to phrase it as a better one. There is a question here, one about the viability/desirability of random dangerous stuff as a game design choice since it's kind of implied in the future of the fortress that he sees that kind of thing as a near blanket negative. I, as a player, disagree with that judgment. I like competing against the RNG gods.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 02, 2016, 03:01:09 pm
Yeah, this has just turned into the NW_Kohaku and Untrustedlife YellsA Lot Hour.
Don't be unfair, im yelling alot aswell.
All of the Magics!
Such Magic
Post by: fearlesslittletoaster on May 02, 2016, 03:03:44 pm
That presumes there would be ways to engineer around the problem, and not, as most representations (including the one TOADY JUST GAVE) of the magic system would have it, simply having a text box pop up informing you that your fortress crumbled for no good reason because you were stupid enough to have a library. Again, I point to the 2d game, where the game ended "unsatisfyingly" because you just have a percentage chance of instant game over with no chance to engineer around anything.
I would have to disagree that there isn't a way to do this. All the design here is a bit up in the air I admit, but I think it could look something like this and work pretty well:
Library is created and researching "terrible secrets" or something is enabled as it would be off by default. So Urist McMagescholar decides he's going to try and learn some new magic. He get the job "PONDER THAT WHICH SHOULD NOT BE." The job can have a variety of outcomes, likely distributed along a curve just like item quality.
Great: Breakthrough, leading to increase in understanding and maybe a new ability or something.
Good: Skill gain, points added to pool that might lead to breakthrough
Neutral: Nothing happens.
Bad: Urist glimpses something bad get a strong negative thought.
Very Bad: Urist glimpses something really really bad, get a strong negative thought, and becomes incredibly incurious.
Even Worse: Urist goes instantly insane
Epic Failure: Urist goes instantly berserk
Getting interesting: Urist and everyone else in the library goes instantly berserk
Hilariously Bad: Everyone nearby gets a random syndrome
Catastrophic: Urist sees that which should not be. That which should not be sees Urist, likes what it sees, and comes to visit.
!!FUN!!: Urist becomes filled with joy and gets instant legendary skill in a new dance called "The Crimson Welcoming." He immediately goes to the tavern to lead the first and only performance of this unique and beautiful work of art...
Post by: StupidElves on May 02, 2016, 05:07:29 pm
If we can kill gods, what will that do to the world? Will creatures cursed by the gods that are killed suddenly be cured by their deaths?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 02, 2016, 05:12:57 pm
Post by: Button on May 02, 2016, 05:46:07 pm
Post by: Qmarx on May 02, 2016, 10:44:04 pm
Are there any plans to be able to force it to include a particular magic as well? For instance, you write up a RAW for shooting fireballs and include it in the list of things. Game reads the tags on it, and the myth generator includes something like with 'humans are spawned from the sun, so they can shoot fireballs', or 'celestial sparks hover above the ground, letting you carve fireball-shooting runestones',
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 02, 2016, 10:53:22 pm
Questions for Toady in lime green, like this.
The myth generator demo showed you forcing the myths to include a race and a celestial object, and the myth generator seems to need to create the gift of death to justify nonimmortal races.
Are there any plans to be able to force it to include a particular magic as well? For instance, you write up a RAW for shooting fireballs and include it in the list of things. Game reads the tags on it, and the myth generator includes something like with 'humans are spawned from the sun, so they can shoot fireballs', or 'celestial sparks hover above the ground, letting you carve fireball-shooting runestones',
Post by: Bumber on May 03, 2016, 12:34:44 am
Continuous use of magic that can cause ill effects on the fort would first produce warning signs, allowing the overseer/sheriff to enact a ban on that magic before it goes to far. Dwarves can break the law based on personality, so be careful who finds out about which arcane secrets. Certain magics might be less risky with better skilled mages, so you might allow your legendary wizards to continue even after random things in your fort have started bursting into flames. The cumulative effect of some magics might go away with time, while others might be more permanent. If you're lucky, you might have a spell for neutralizing magic changes, or the land might just be permanently scarred.
Post by: DG on May 03, 2016, 04:29:12 am
Gaiz. Come on. This thread is for questions. Discussions & suggestions go in discussion & suggestion threads.
It's the (near) Future of the Fortress thread where we discuss the (near) Future of the Fortress and ask questions on current development*.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*Questions which largely boil down to suggestions on current developments but are tacitly tolerated so long as they are phrased as questions. FotF Jeopardy.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 03, 2016, 04:05:12 pm
I would have to disagree that there isn't a way to do this. All the design here is a bit up in the air I admit, but I think it could look something like this and work pretty well:
Yes, there are ways to do it well, those are ways that involve pushing magic into the physical space simulation, as I stated in that response.
The problem is that I apparently cannot repeat enough for people that there are some very obvious traps that people keep walking straight into, not the least of which being turning magic in fortress mode into a randomly-activated "game over button" that makes magic so massively unattractive nobody would ever want to use it. For example, what you just produced falls under that definition of terrible ideas nobody would want to play:
Library is created and researching "terrible secrets" or something is enabled as it would be off by default. So Urist McMagescholar decides he's going to try and learn some new magic. He get the job "PONDER THAT WHICH SHOULD NOT BE." The job can have a variety of outcomes, likely distributed along a curve just like item quality.
Great: Breakthrough, leading to increase in understanding and maybe a new ability or something.
Good: Skill gain, points added to pool that might lead to breakthrough
Neutral: Nothing happens.
Bad: Urist glimpses something bad get a strong negative thought.
Very Bad: Urist glimpses something really really bad, get a strong negative thought, and becomes incredibly incurious.
Even Worse: Urist goes instantly insane
Epic Failure: Urist goes instantly berserk
Getting interesting: Urist and everyone else in the library goes instantly berserk
Hilariously Bad: Everyone nearby gets a random syndrome
Catastrophic: Urist sees that which should not be. That which should not be sees Urist, likes what it sees, and comes to visit.
!!FUN!!: Urist becomes filled with joy and gets instant legendary skill in a new dance called "The Crimson Welcoming." He immediately goes to the tavern to lead the first and only performance of this unique and beautiful work of art...
There is, everyone say it with me, now, no reason to ever use a system like this. There is no way for the benefits to outweigh the risks. This is a sucker's bet.
And yes, sorry to everyone else if I have to keep saying this over and over, but apparently I need to sledgehammer the notion that turning fortress mode into a slot machine is a bad idea into everybody one by one.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 03, 2016, 04:09:25 pm
And yes, sorry to everyone else if I have to keep saying this over and over, but apparently I need to sledgehammer the notion that turning fortress mode into a slot machine is a bad idea into everybody one by one.
Exactly. If we want to turn a fortress into a slot machine, that's what pressure plates and water logic gates are for.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on May 03, 2016, 04:10:55 pm
So, with some of the myths stating that there's like, a tower or a road to the heavens, does this mean that we will eventually be able to travel to them as physical places and kill the gods? Because some of the gods tend to be jerks, and they need to be taken down a notch.
If we can kill gods, what will that do to the world? Will creatures cursed by the gods that are killed suddenly be cured by their deaths?
The HFS is already a gateway to another dimension. A gateway to the heavens would presumably be similar, except with all those Fun vault dwellers hanging around instead of clowns. (What, did you expect them to be singing choruses in togas? This is the game where "good" means "unicorns will impale you for getting too close to their bubble grass".)
Post by: NJW2000 on May 03, 2016, 04:20:26 pm
I... haven't bothered reading the whole discussion, but1 I think you might be confusing your own rather well thought out, practical playstyle with what other, less sensible people might do.
I mean, what does hfs add? Adamantine? Never as deadly as danger room training. Massive roasts? pffft.
I'm just not so sure balance or utility is key to df features.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 03, 2016, 05:48:17 pm
The HFS is already a gateway to another dimension. A gateway to the heavens would presumably be similar, except with all those Fun vault dwellers hanging around instead of clowns. (What, did you expect them to be singing choruses in togas? This is the game where "good" means "unicorns will impale you for getting too close to their bubble grass".)
Hehe, df is essentially a dark fantasy game isnt it.
Good means evil, evil also means evil, the world is out to murder you.
Night trolls that kidnap people and turn them into fellow night trolls and forcibly mate with them etc.
Gods who are best buds with demons...
I think TV tropes actually classifies df as dark fantasy at this point doesnt it?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkFantasy
^ yep its in the "Videogame" list at the bottom.
Post by: ZM5 on May 03, 2016, 05:58:38 pm
Even the gods of what would appear to be benevolent spheres can consort with demons and bring them into the world after "pondering the ineffable subtleties of rainbows/family/marriage/etc". Not to mention that they hand out curses just as often as gods of death, darkness, etc, and no gods yet hand out actual blessings (unless you count "slab with knowledge of life and death" as a blessing).
Evil in DF really just means evil-er. Atleast in good biomes you only really have to fear the wildlife like everywhere else, even though unicorns are probably more exotic than even giant elephants. In evil biomes the weather itself is trying to kill you (I guess it does in cold biomes too just like in real life but...hey, atleast there's no skin-melting mist).
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 03, 2016, 06:02:35 pm
I never said that a release must be perfect, I merely cautioned against expecting it would be a release with hundreds of spells that don't cause absolute mayhem with game balance.
If you're trying to say that one shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, then that's by all means an endorsement of everyone coming around to list the many possible edge case failures for Toady, even if not every one can be found, rather than dismissing such things as pessimism.
There is a limit to which cheating can be stretched without making the game impossible to play as anything other than an exploit-memorization game. An army of 50-ton steel blobs with full-body necrosis syndromes is essentially impossible for any military to defeat, and functionally requires obsidianization traps.
The cheating also needs to be balanced for both players that can randomly have access to virtually any type of magic, all types of magic, or no magic... which is an absurdly difficult ask.
Toady doesn't accomplish the (actually) impossible. At best, he accomplishes the unprecedented, but he has mainly just done things that nobody would put the time or effort into doing, or which people believed would not be popular enough to warrant doing.
What I'm opposed to is simply saying "Toady can do this thing that I can't even clearly define or have thought about all the way through, even if it's impossible because Toady does impossible stuff all the time!"
It's like saying, "Hey, people said making a plane that could go through the sound barrier was 'impossible', and now they say time machines are 'impossible', so clearly, time machines are going to exist any minute, now!" No matter what the memes say, DF isn't going to become self-aware any time soon, and DF has a nasty tendency to make memes that fans angrily stick to as though it were true. (Like, say, female dwarves with beards...) Magic, in particular, is a hotbed for asking for the impossible or the badly-thought-out, which is why it demands strong pushback to ask people to think through what they really want, and consider the impact it will have on people with different play styles than one's own.
I mean , thats a fair enough crticism, really nothing to argue against there.
Quote
one shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
I suppose that is essentially what I meant.
Post by: Escapism on May 04, 2016, 01:15:37 am
It's more difficult to give them their own distinct voices -- we already have a lot of data to work with that would help with characterization, but the amount of writing required and the way it all has to be chopped to pieces makes it a very difficult problem.
How would one go about doing this? I got the picture of doing something like I used to do in MS Word when I was younger: substituting various words with synonyms via right-clicking it and thus changing it to a different sentence while usually retaining some semblance of the original meaning.
e.g
"It was [inevitable/ineludible/imminent/assured/ordained/prescribed/unpreventable/foreordained/fated/impending]."
"A bandit gang led by Asloth Wraithserpents has been harassing people on the street!"
"A
[bandit/robber/marauder/outlaw/rogue/villain/mobster/criminal]
[gang/clan/company/crew/troop/party/band/troupe/pack/syndicate/clique]
led by Asloth Wraithserpents has been
[harassing/tormenting/attacking/bedeviling/plagueing/disturbing/intimidating]
[on the street/in town/hereabouts/around here/nearby]
!"
Seems like something that would be relatively easy to outsource to the community via the raws while also having the potential to have some charmingly roguelike way of describing things and allowing for proto-"distinct voices" and proto-dialects via having different patterns for different characters/civilizations.
Post by: ChangelingVenom on May 04, 2016, 05:52:19 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I can see people going into the raws and replacing elves with "buttmunchers" or some other words haha
Post by: ZM5 on May 04, 2016, 06:03:12 pm
I can see people going into the raws and replacing elves with "buttmunchers" or some other words hahaDon't give people ideas for an elf-hate modding collab.
Post by: Witty on May 04, 2016, 09:04:52 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on May 05, 2016, 03:56:23 pm
Post by: Tuxfanturnip on May 05, 2016, 04:07:41 pm
Post by: Spish on May 06, 2016, 11:20:02 pm
Is stress going to be balanced for the next release? In a way, the experience feels slightly hollow with dwarves being perfectly content while everything is crumbling around them (plus it makes the sheriff's job real boring).
Post by: MrWiggles on May 07, 2016, 09:27:40 pm
Probably too late to be asking this, but...There been no word in the dev log that they've been working on Emotions, or stress. So, no, probably not.
Is stress going to be balanced for the next release? In a way, the experience feels slightly hollow with dwarves being perfectly content while everything is crumbling around them (plus it makes the sheriff's job real boring).
Post by: malvado on May 08, 2016, 10:24:14 am
*Do Toady and ThreeToe get any inspiration from Tv-series / Movies and popular books that are currently in progress? Game of thrones for an example? If that's the case do you have any examples of features that have been implemented or might be planned?
*Have you ever personalized someone into your game that you actually don't like? I know of a few people I'd add then hunt if I was developing a game...
Post by: Alfrodo on May 08, 2016, 01:28:23 pm
*Have you ever personalized someone into your game that you actually don't like? I know of a few people I'd add then hunt if I was developing a game...
I don't think there are any actual "characters" in the game. Only randomly generated ones with randomly generated personalities, inventories, appearances and histories.
Post by: Dirst on May 08, 2016, 01:44:06 pm
That's true, but there could be creature types or event types that were inspired by real or fictional examples that Toady came across. For example, he might have had a classmate who insisted that everything that happened was inevitable :)
*Have you ever personalized someone into your game that you actually don't like? I know of a few people I'd add then hunt if I was developing a game...
I don't think there are any actual "characters" in the game. Only randomly generated ones with randomly generated personalities, inventories, appearances and histories.
Post by: Putnam on May 08, 2016, 02:38:06 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 08, 2016, 03:02:23 pm
So a few questions that are a little bit Personal :in a related point:
*Do Toady and ThreeToe get any inspiration from Tv-series / Movies and popular books that are currently in progress? Game of thrones for an example? If that's the case do you have any examples of features that have been implemented or might be planned?
*Have you ever personalized someone into your game that you actually don't like? I know of a few people I'd add then hunt if I was developing a game...
Toady have you ever read discworld?
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 08, 2016, 05:34:24 pm
So you just added those various giant creatures, however according to the wiki there are no giant ants yet, do you plan to eventually add giant ants and associated colonies? I have a feeling they would be very fun to delve into in adventurer mode and even in fort mode.
Post by: Dirst on May 08, 2016, 07:24:48 pm
ALso
So you just added those various giant creatures, however according to the wiki there are no giant ants yet, do you plan to eventually add giant ants and associated colonies? I have a feeling they would be very fun to delve into in adventurer mode and even in fort mode.
Could be !!FUN!! to find a bunch of them in a cave.
(http://www.scifimoviepage.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/them_poster_02.jpg)
Post by: StupidElves on May 08, 2016, 11:37:10 pm
ALso
So you just added those various giant creatures, however according to the wiki there are no giant ants yet, do you plan to eventually add giant ants and associated colonies? I have a feeling they would be very fun to delve into in adventurer mode and even in fort mode.
Could be !!FUN!! to find a bunch of them in a cave.(http://www.scifimoviepage.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/them_poster_02.jpg)
Could giant insects build colonies? Like, giant beehives and ant colonies that you can find in Adventure Mode and Fortress Mode.
Post by: Bumber on May 09, 2016, 02:13:23 am
Could giant insects build colonies? Like, giant beehives and ant colonies that you can find in Adventure Mode and Fortress Mode.Seconding this. It would really add some interesting atmosphere to the world. Insect-people could build them, too. Ant fortress.
This probably belongs in a suggestion thread.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 09, 2016, 02:45:42 am
Could giant insects build colonies? Like, giant beehives and ant colonies that you can find in Adventure Mode and Fortress Mode.Seconding this. It would really add some interesting atmosphere to the world. Insect-people could build them, too. Ant fortress.
This probably belongs in a suggestion thread.
I personally was just curious if it was planned.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 09, 2016, 03:02:12 am
Could giant insects build colonies? Like, giant beehives and ant colonies that you can find in Adventure Mode and Fortress Mode.Seconding this. It would really add some interesting atmosphere to the world. Insect-people could build them, too. Ant fortress.
This probably belongs in a suggestion thread.
I personally was just curious if it was planned.
It seems more akin to a forward "surface" colony of antmen DFWIKIREFERENCE (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Antman) (additionally though i may just be looking in the wrong places, i never really seem to bump into native tribal animalmen anymore since they all go off on this adventuring lark)
With potential competition from the deep-dwarves, will the "animalmen-civilisation" see any kind of improvement upon their society structure? Rather than being primitive fodder for fortress mode smashing & adventure mode mercenaries, which all in all is a waste of their civilization generation entity file if they are going to be reduced to a turkey hunt.
After all, who takes up the mantle of a assault when the goblins have exhausted their ranks and crumbled but leave behind the tunnels to follow with wave upon wave of invaders lying in wait to attack wherever the dwarves dig down.
Post by: Button on May 09, 2016, 08:20:41 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 09, 2016, 11:54:45 pm
I'm impressed, Toady. I was expecting that you'd go about adding branch gathering in the same way modders such as I did: via a psuedotool obtained via the tree's growth (leaf, flower, etc) options. Instead you not only added a new item token for branches, but make picking them a hardcoded option in the get menu? Interesting.
Post by: Putnam on May 10, 2016, 02:22:10 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 10, 2016, 10:58:52 am
EDIT: Plus it would've been consistent with leaves and flowers being picked as a plant growth, so the more complex solution actually stands out as inconsistent. Still clever.
EDIT 2: Hnnng.
Why does carving a haft from a branch use carpentry instead of woodcrafting? And is there a reason you can take a masterfully-knapped sharp rock and never get quality out of a stone axe, because the reaction uses no skill?
And why are stone axes explictly a separate tool instead of a weapon? Hell, it'd make perfect sense if you were adding generic woodcutting axes for flavor, but you didn't add the token for making them out of metal, and didn't add it to any entities.
Post by: thedrelle on May 10, 2016, 12:10:29 pm
This isn't really a question, but I was feeling grieved at the loss of a pet, and the 43.01 release gave me a happy thought to (partially) counteract it. Thanks!
aw, sorry to hear that. I really have to put down my cat soon, Shes old, mad as a hatter, lost her teeth, and is attacking the other cat now. but I'm dragging my feet because, well, it's sad.
Post by: CLA on May 10, 2016, 01:04:42 pm
Why does carving a haft from a branch use carpentry instead of woodcrafting?I assume it's because woodcrafting isn't implemented as adventurer skill yet, so having it use carpentry was the easier way. IIRC Toady mentioned that all the old workshops and assorted crafting skills were really old (non-OO) code and would have to be completely reimplemented one by one to be used in adventurer mode.
I can't find the specific quote, unfortunately.
Post by: Putnam on May 10, 2016, 01:36:15 pm
Why does carving a haft from a branch use carpentry instead of woodcrafting?I assume it's because woodcrafting isn't implemented as adventurer skill yet, so having it use carpentry was the easier way. IIRC Toady mentioned that all the old workshops and assorted crafting skills were really old (non-OO) code and would have to be completely reimplemented one by one to be used in adventurer mode.
I can't find the specific quote, unfortunately.
No, all skills can be used as adventurer skills for reactions, even ones that aren't used at all (druid etc.)
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 10, 2016, 01:53:07 pm
Why does carving a haft from a branch use carpentry instead of woodcrafting?I assume it's because woodcrafting isn't implemented as adventurer skill yet, so having it use carpentry was the easier way. IIRC Toady mentioned that all the old workshops and assorted crafting skills were really old (non-OO) code and would have to be completely reimplemented one by one to be used in adventurer mode.
I can't find the specific quote, unfortunately.
As Putnam said, there's no sane reaction not to give haft-carving the woodcraft skill instead of the carpentry skill, especially as it doesn't use the building.
EDIT: Another question.
Why are splints craftable? You can't use them in adventure mode yet.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 10, 2016, 05:16:52 pm
So that you can embark next to hut full of splints to help kick start your fortress.Why does carving a haft from a branch use carpentry instead of woodcrafting?I assume it's because woodcrafting isn't implemented as adventurer skill yet, so having it use carpentry was the easier way. IIRC Toady mentioned that all the old workshops and assorted crafting skills were really old (non-OO) code and would have to be completely reimplemented one by one to be used in adventurer mode.
I can't find the specific quote, unfortunately.
As Putnam said, there's no sane reaction not to give haft-carving the woodcraft skill instead of the carpentry skill, especially as it doesn't use the building.
EDIT: Another question.
Why are splints craftable? You can't use them in adventure mode yet.
Post by: TheFlame52 on May 10, 2016, 05:37:07 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 10, 2016, 06:01:55 pm
Quote
Ha ha, yeah, it takes you out to travel mode and then tries to reload the world map -- which is the secret 1x1 map of the arena's world.
Senpai noticed me. *~*
Post by: Dirst on May 10, 2016, 07:15:21 pm
Why is the dwarven calendar the way it is? 336 days, 12 months, 7-day weeks, four weeks in a month. Why not something smoother? Like maybe 360 days, 12 months, 6-day weeks, five weeks in a month?Seven-day weeks are more familiar to players who grew up on Earth. And since reskinning 30/31 day months would seem cheap, the best solution was lunar months that happen to be four weeks long.
The calendar might get a fresh look when Toady gets around to celestial bodies.
Post by: Rose on May 11, 2016, 10:29:32 am
DF has 13 lunar cycles per year.
Post by: Dirst on May 11, 2016, 10:46:52 am
They aren't lunar months.I was going off the werebeast example interaction, which is active from "day 27" until "day 0" of the moon phase implying a cycle at least 28 days long (and probably exactly 28 days long). But the wiki has 13 full-moon dates throughout the year, the first being the 25th day of the year.
DF has 13 lunar cycles per year.
Dirst is confused.
Post by: LordBaal on May 11, 2016, 01:02:43 pm
Also, and feel free not to answer this if you don't want. Would you consider multi-threading on the long run? I know is not quite the same to do so, but it would go great lengths to help make a better game, specially if the number of cores keep increasing. Given how dwarf fortress is being developed I think is quite important to aim it to (albeit slowly) take advantages of technologies looming on the horizon (once you know it's actually going to be catchy/common).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 11, 2016, 06:08:48 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 11, 2016, 06:12:57 pm
Even more confusing, we were all hyped for this alleged myth system. I thought it was also soon, but the 43.01 post made literally no mention of it whatsoever. Not even saying something like "still working on it" or "other priorities have crept up" or anything to explain. :V
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 11, 2016, 08:17:40 pm
Which makes his complete 180 on that, making 64-bit a "soon" thing, highly confusing.Myth gen is the next cycle after this one. We're not finished with this cycle yet (despite the version number increasing). The plan, which hasn't changed or reversed, is and always has been:
Even more confusing, we were all hyped for this alleged myth system. I thought it was also soon, but the 43.01 post made literally no mention of it whatsoever. Not even saying something like "still working on it" or "other priorities have crept up" or anything to explain. :V
1.Bug squishing and features for 42.x (so many features it became 43.x)
2.64 bit test release
3. Begin next big cycle - artifacts and mythgen (probably a year's work despite good intentions).
We're still in 1) right now - have been since January.
You're confused because Toady made a prototype of one of the features of the next cycle (mythgen) for a conference.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 11, 2016, 08:33:15 pm
Post by: expwnent on May 11, 2016, 09:24:11 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 11, 2016, 10:04:26 pm
Post by: Putnam on May 11, 2016, 10:15:53 pm
The earliest mention I can find is right here (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/#2015-10-24). He also mentioned doing the 64-bit test before the artifact release the first day of the year. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155217.0)
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on May 11, 2016, 10:38:16 pm
If that's vague/confusing, here's a more concrete question: Is the bayberry tree supposed to act like real-life bayberry trees do, as much as possible?
(see here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157981.0))
Edit: Not sure why I thought I was supposed to bold my questions. Makes it hard as circus to read.
Post by: Dirst on May 11, 2016, 10:40:16 pm
The plan was always 64-bit before artifacts AFAIK.Toady is going to need 64 bits to top Planepacked :)
And your comment reminded me that we have always been at war with Eastasia.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 12, 2016, 12:24:01 am
It was announced on 24th October 2015, and he alluded to a 64 bit release to solve certain problems before that at a panel discussion in August (posted on Sep 16th).The plan was always 64-bit before artifacts AFAIK.Toady is going to need 64 bits to top Planepacked :)
And your comment reminded me that we have always been at war with Eastasia.
What do you think Toady changed his mind about?
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 12, 2016, 12:36:16 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 12, 2016, 12:43:21 am
I mean before, there was mention of the idea that Toady was hesitant to start on making it 64-bit due to the belief that it'd be complex to implement.There was mention...
There's also mention that Toady has no intention of ever improving the UI or graphics support (despite both being in the planning notes), hates all mods (despite increased flexibility and modability being in the planning notes and various praise for mods in various interviews). And so on. Amazing how much Toady 'is said to have thought' but somehow left no record.
Post by: Dirst on May 12, 2016, 12:50:47 am
Besides, who could ever hate adorable little Pet Rocks?
Post by: Inarius on May 12, 2016, 01:48:59 am
Post by: Egan_BW on May 12, 2016, 02:13:55 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 12, 2016, 02:18:43 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 12, 2016, 04:04:18 am
Post by: kontako on May 12, 2016, 04:35:13 am
In the preview for the myth generator you showed that all creation originated from a single primordial entity (Eternal mist, etc), will there be cases where multiple entities (eg Muspell + Niflheim) behave as the universe's progenitor?
Will there be deities with unknown / foreign origins to the main dynasty (eg Vanir to the Aesir)?
Post by: Bumber on May 12, 2016, 05:47:18 am
Toady, do you intend for plants with the same name as RL plants to share as many properties with the RL plants as possible?To clarify the question: Is DF bayberry supposed to be a specific species, or a blending of different IRL species? The linked thread points out that they grow fruit, but are in climates that non-edible species are found in.
If that's vague/confusing, here's a more concrete question: Is the bayberry tree supposed to act like real-life bayberry trees do, as much as possible?
(see here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157981.0))
Edit: Not sure why I thought I was supposed to bold my questions. Makes it hard as circus to read.
Post by: monk12 on May 12, 2016, 12:00:01 pm
Same story with the UI stuff basically, except we're still in the "not yet" part of the plan and likely will be for another decade.
Hah, I can't see how anyone could think Toady hates mods, considering that he made a whole sub-board for them. :D
Especially with how considerate he is of modders; anyone following FotF for a while will have seen him explain mechanical details and raw tokens for the changes he's making, even as far as sneak peeks, just so people can maintain their mods and update more quickly once the release is out.
Post by: Rose on May 12, 2016, 01:53:58 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 12, 2016, 02:01:08 pm
Because finding exactly what I need for the only forms of music I know can be annoying. Thing is, I have no idea what would be the easiest way to handle use of inexact instruments, code-wise. Though just allowing the use of different instruments of the same skill, for a skill penalty less severe than instrumentless improv, would be a massive improvement.
Post by: Max™ on May 12, 2016, 08:57:37 pm
He's even revealed what some of the stuff inside DF's innards means, when asked.Yup, even pointed me to the right flag for safe landings to make launch.lua usable without slamming into the ground face first every time!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 13, 2016, 02:09:37 am
And how flexible will it be? For example if I wanted everything full fantasy random plus one race of regular humans, would that be doable?
Post by: Max™ on May 13, 2016, 06:54:12 am
Post by: Knight Otu on May 13, 2016, 09:07:12 am
When mythgen comes along how easy will it be to add in a modded race? Would it just be a matter of adding the raws like now then assigning a 'fantasy' rating to it to let mythgen know when to introduce it?It should be sufficient to have the raws mostly as they are now (plus any control tokens that may exist, like the fantasy rating).
Quote from: ZM5will modders need to add their own creatures and such to the file itself, or will sentient, civilized races be automatically pulled from the raws into the myths in-game without having to create any additional files?
The creature files in the presentation were just a quick way to get the presentation going. I expect DF will use the existing raws for that portion. I'm not yet sure about the astronomical objects. The sun, moon and stars exist in the game already, with in-game effects (with adv mode lighting, werecreatures, etc.), and it'll be some work to support additions and subtractions -- which parts of the myth are respected will have to come in in sections to avoid a too-long release.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 13, 2016, 08:33:33 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 15, 2016, 02:09:54 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 15, 2016, 02:54:47 am
Adventurer site building has the option to define taverns, libraries and temples as well as the mead halls you mentioned at the time of release. However, these don't seem to do anything right now. Unlike the meadhalls, they don't show up in Legends mode, so presumably are not defined as taverns, libraries or temples in the world and won't ever attract visitors. Is this just an unfinished feature, or is it supposed to work right now?
They do work but there is a cap firstmost to the max amount of visitors you may have at any one time, and secondly your biggest imports of scholars (since temples dont really offer unique visitor types and bards come and go from the tavern) is going to be from your own civilization, because the animalmen [LOCAL POP PRODUCES HEROES] tag churns out mercenaries out in the wilds to wander pretty much anywhere with enough fort value to attract a steady flow of interested visitors. As to say if all the civilization entities disappeared, leaving nothing but wild animal-men, you'd still be able to recruit mercenaries out of ex nihlio if the fortress was wealthy enough.
If you settle close enough to home within 'walking distance' of the last fort or dwarven city on the world map you should over time and scaling with the progress in writing made in the library (as to say visiting scholars are there to prep up your library and study) attract people post the writing of your first book/quire/scroll and general fortress wealth will attract visitors as intended. Temples attract regardless and im many cases people turn off the outsider usage for this reason.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 15, 2016, 03:38:11 am
Sorry, but are you sure you're talking about adventure mode site built zones? I don't understand what 'fortress wealth' has to do with anything. What fortress? where?Adventurer site building has the option to define taverns, libraries and temples as well as the mead halls you mentioned at the time of release. However, these don't seem to do anything right now. Unlike the meadhalls, they don't show up in Legends mode, so presumably are not defined as taverns, libraries or temples in the world and won't ever attract visitors. Is this just an unfinished feature, or is it supposed to work right now?
They do work but there is a cap firstmost to the max amount of visitors you may have at any one time, and secondly your biggest imports of scholars (since temples dont really offer unique visitor types and bards come and go from the tavern) is going to be from your own civilization, because the animalmen [LOCAL POP PRODUCES HEROES] tag churns out mercenaries out in the wilds to wander pretty much anywhere with enough fort value to attract a steady flow of interested visitors. As to say if all the civilization entities disappeared, leaving nothing but wild animal-men, you'd still be able to recruit mercenaries out of ex nihlio if the fortress was wealthy enough.
If you settle close enough to home within 'walking distance' of the last fort or dwarven city on the world map you should over time and scaling with the progress in writing made in the library (as to say visiting scholars are there to prep up your library and study) attract people post the writing of your first book/quire/scroll and general fortress wealth will attract visitors as intended. Temples attract regardless and im many cases people turn off the outsider usage for this reason.
Post by: Putnam on May 15, 2016, 04:47:52 am
At least, I'm pretty sure that's what the connections was supposed to be.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 15, 2016, 05:18:00 am
Well, anyway, I'll follow the advice and write some books for the library and see what happens. I'm surprised so much Science has been done since 43.02 was released.
Edit - Wait, what?! 'Turn off outsider usage'?? You are talking about fortress mode aren't you? There's no such option in Adventurer.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 15, 2016, 06:13:38 am
But my question was, is this a feature or not? And if it is why don't they show up in Legends mode? The mead halls do.
Well, anyway, I'll follow the advice and write some books for the library and see what happens. I'm surprised so much Science has been done since 43.02 was released.
Edit - Wait, what?! 'Turn off outsider usage'?? You are talking about fortress mode aren't you? There's no such option in Adventurer.
Sorry, i think i had crossed brain wires. I understand the question now in that you're referring to adventure mode buildings, and frankly my answer is that i do not know exactly. But if the systems are anywhere similar, putnam's response would be fitting, or my overall general advice would be to open these venues close by to settlements.
This verges on the edge of either a oversight/placeholder for adventure mode made structures with meaning in the world (if the system ever changes to which a tavern/location is based off combined values of fortress wealth & reputation then maybe it would attract with the reputation value) or a outright bug of some kind.
Visitors are tied to fortress wealth. Your site does not have fortress wealth. You will not get visitors.
At least, I'm pretty sure that's what the connections was supposed to be.
Since this question is up in the air.
Will certain procedurally generated and adventure mode retired embark locations such as taverns and temples or even just structures in the world ever retain private ownership by who owns the site even if it overlays your embark? (with ownership being tranferred upon admittance of themselves or their relatives to your fortress?) With diplomatic reprecussions for attacking such as taking a diplomacy hit and angering the occupants/relative nation.
And if this was so, could our own fortress dwellers find relevance in assigned dwarves (say its a 'trading license' of sorts) taking over private shopfront property independently to build skills, conduct commerce and interact with the wider world. In the sense that wagons sell in bulk to fortresses but traders and tourists probably want to buy our roasts with coins to a vendor. Very Recettear i guess
On one hand it'd probably be a pain to defend from robbers, looters and self rightous elves trying to rip off traders with 'wooden coins', but on the other its probably more interesting than walking up to a big pile of stuff.
Post by: Seagoon on May 15, 2016, 09:22:52 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 15, 2016, 10:53:24 am
Visitors are tied to fortress wealth. Your site does not have fortress wealth. You will not get visitors.
At least, I'm pretty sure that's what the connections was supposed to be.
Rumrusher at least has been inundated with demons though. :V
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 15, 2016, 12:49:23 pm
Adventurer site building has the option to define taverns, libraries and temples as well as the mead halls you mentioned at the time of release. However, these don't seem to do anything right now. Unlike the meadhalls, they don't show up in Legends mode, so presumably are not defined as taverns, libraries or temples in the world and won't ever attract visitors. Is this just an unfinished feature, or is it supposed to work right now?
I hope toady will be able to answer this.
Post by: DG on May 15, 2016, 09:48:49 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 15, 2016, 10:26:20 pm
Will ghosts require a certain minimum fantasy level in the myth generator before they appear?And indeed, will the existence of ghosts altogether depend on the kind of afterlife and soul information output by mythgen?
Post by: Max™ on May 16, 2016, 12:32:45 am
How difficult would it be to allow a caste to override the random selection of what caste to birth with a specific caste of the modder choice or even have a specific sub list of castes to produce? This seems like a feature that would give a lot of power to modders and it is somthing I have been waiting to be introduced for several years now :PIsn't that what pop_ratio does? When I did my steel angel experiment they were all female and often had trouble with world-gen pop numbers, later I added a 1:5000 ratio male adventurer-tuned caste and while they were around enough to keep them breeding and whatnot, checking legends I rarely saw them, and never encountered one in game. I did a similar thing with my dwarf male/female/dorf adventurer caste thing, where the dorfs had 0 ratio so they only showed up once in a blue moon during world-gen weirdness, unless chosen by a player to use that caste.
Ohhhh, I got a question again!
Love the fixed fame/bandit/citizens relationships and hearthperson quests, btw, and I do a lot of variations of them in different worlds. In large towns and especially after having become known to random people I meet as a legendary hero I started to observe something. From time to time when I returned to report on and get a new quest I would go and take the side/back exits from the keep (only found them because of civilians liking to use them) and hit the nearest road to start traveling.
Shortly after entering the travel map you get a check for nearby armies and will often see a few pop up and start wandering the streets as usual, but in the case where you're a Big Damn Hero you often find one that will follow you slavishly, even to nearby hamlets and lairs. Upon dropping out of travel mode and investigating I've learned these will generally be a squad of 4~6 recruits and occasionally a couple of skilled soldiers like a marksdorf or hammerelf or whatnot. They always tend to be amazed to meet me, say they are on a mission, do not trigger ambushes when crossing their * on the map, and usually turn back after I get a couple of world map tiles from the home town.
Was this intended behavior, with them being support/back-up or fans, or just an emergent quirk?
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 16, 2016, 01:25:33 am
Post by: Thundercraft on May 20, 2016, 07:14:31 am
Currently, the only Secret of consequence is Life and Death, which relates to the Death sphere and Necromancy. Personally, I think that granting not only Immortality but also the abilities to raise and control undead is quite the boon, all for just one sphere.
Q1: After spheres are expanded on and there are more Secrets, will the Secret of Life and Death be adjusted/altered at all? Or is it currently as it was originally intended?
Q2: Will there be other Spheres, Secrets or deity boons which might grant Immortality?
I'd really appreciate the option to make favorite adventurers Immortal without turning them into a Necromancer, so I could potentially see them persist beyond old age after retirement. And I'd rather not have my retired adventurers raise undead, merely because they can. Other options involve using an immortal race like Elf, or cursing the adventurer into a werebeast or vampire. None of these options sound very appealing to me.
It does not sound like there is a sphere of "Life". But, if you think about it, it makes at least as much sense for the Spheres of Longevity and Youth to be associated with Immortality (compared to Death). In my mind, at least, the Secret of Death should be limited to just Necromancy and not include Immortality. Immortality is the secret of Life, which is the polar opposite of Death. And being immortal makes the individual immune to Death. I think most deities of the sphere of Death would be upset with that. (They would probably preach that Death is not to be feared, etc...)
Post by: Grus on May 22, 2016, 02:32:33 pm
Post by: Jimmius on May 24, 2016, 04:33:48 pm
I'd love for mounted units to play a larger part than just sometimes having the mount be a dangerous creature. The Military side of things has me most excited, in fact it's probably one of my joint top 'I'll give my soul to Armok if this was implemented tomorrow' feature. The other being Multithreading ;)
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 24, 2016, 05:11:38 pm
Will there be momentum-based weapons (I.E Lances) to give mounted troops an edge when the big Military Arc begins?I'm pretty sure when combat and movement speed were split all weapons got bonuses to damage the faster you were moving. It's just not a very well documented mechanic. I remember when he added the ability to have creatures ride other creaturs in the object testing arena he talked about controlling a horse and trying to get their rider the best attack velocity bonuses.
I'd love for mounted units to play a larger part than just sometimes having the mount be a dangerous creature. The Military side of things has me most excited, in fact it's probably one of my joint top 'I'll give my soul to Armok if this was implemented tomorrow' feature. The other being Multithreading ;)
Post by: Jimmius on May 24, 2016, 05:21:36 pm
I'm pretty sure when combat and movement speed were split all weapons got bonuses to damage the faster you were moving. It's just not a very well documented mechanic. I remember when he added the ability to have creatures ride other creaturs in the object testing arena he talked about controlling a horse and trying to get their rider the best attack velocity bonuses.
Ah that's interesting. It's not something I've really noticed, as currently Dwarves cannot ride mounts (and to be fair, they are too small for horses) and Sieger AI just charges and then 'sticks' in close quarters, rather than gaining momentum for continuous attacks.
Still, I'd like a 'lance' weapon that's practically usless at slow speeds, but super deadly if you're moving fast. Take the current bonuses and ramp them up to 11.
Post by: Dirst on May 24, 2016, 05:26:59 pm
Still, I'd like a 'lance' weapon that's practically usless at slow speeds, but super deadly if you're moving fast. Take the current bonuses and ramp them up to 11.This would probably flow naturally from a low contact area and ridiculously high penetration rating on the weapon. Need a lot of velocity to actually push the weapon's mass that deep into a target.
Post by: Thundercraft on May 24, 2016, 06:02:24 pm
I'd love for mounted units to play a larger part than just sometimes having the mount be a dangerous creature. The Military side of things has me most excited...
...as currently Dwarves cannot ride mounts...
Myself, I'd be very happy if only Dwarves and/or Adventurers could ride mounts. Never mind how much extra damage they could do: It would be awesome for the roleplaying flavor. It would be so dwarfy for Dwarves to ride into battle on the backs of war-bears.
...I remember when he added the ability to have creatures ride other creaturs in the object testing arena he talked about controlling a horse and trying to get their rider the best attack velocity bonuses.
Wait, what...? ??? Was this mentioned in a Dwarf Fortress Talk or something?
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 24, 2016, 06:05:20 pm
I'm pretty sure when combat and movement speed were split all weapons got bonuses to damage the faster you were moving. It's just not a very well documented mechanic. I remember when he added the ability to have creatures ride other creaturs in the object testing arena he talked about controlling a horse and trying to get their rider the best attack velocity bonuses.
Has anyone done any !!SCIENCE!! to both confirm this and see how much it affects damage?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 24, 2016, 09:21:10 pm
Just ctrl+f for horse.
Quote
thats another thing about the move/combat speed split stuff, it counts your current momentum in the attack, as long as your momentum - your velocity vector or whatever, is pointing toward the guy and the guy is either not moving or not moving away faster from you so that there is actual motion toward the other person. And if a person is running at you, you actually get the same bonus. So as long as there's relative motion, that's at least ninety degrees. So it could be perpendicular motion, or motion toward the person, then you get a bonus to your swing speed that's in line with how fast you're moving, so, and it also takes into account the speed of anything you're riding.
Post by: CLA on May 25, 2016, 05:40:14 am
So what I'm asking is, if I will be able to make one world with a few necromancers, maybe a handful of vampires, 10 forgotten beasts/titans, and no more than a dozen animal people/men, with the usual amount of regular animals and standard races; another world with the same kind of creatures, but more necromancers, vampires, werebeasts, titans, etc, compared to regular animals and races.
And a third one where slightly supernatural creatures (say, elves and dwarves) exist, and slightly more supernatural creatures (maybe vampires and unicorns, creatures with superhuman strength), but neither total fantasy stuff (flying guts, primordial serpent gods), nor completely mundane creatures (dog, cat, human, peach faced lovebird).
Post by: Jimmius on May 25, 2016, 07:44:58 am
A lot of the Dwarf Fortress charm comes from shared ideas and concepts we all have about the races: Dwarfs love mining and booze, Elves are filthy tree huggers, Humans are money obsessed xenophobes. etc. As much fun as a playable race of Bioluminescent Slugmen who hate animals might be, I'd hate to have to give up my Short sturdy creatures fond of Drink and Industry.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 25, 2016, 07:57:04 am
Will the Myth Generator have an 'as it is now' button? I.E some magical elements, but no procedurally generated races.DF is full of procedurally generated races right now (titans, FB, spoilery things).
A lot of the Dwarf Fortress charm comes from shared ideas and concepts we all have about the races: Dwarfs love mining and booze, Elves are filthy tree huggers, Humans are money obsessed xenophobes. etc. As much fun as a playable race of Bioluminescent Slugmen who hate animals might be, I'd hate to have to give up my Short sturdy creatures fond of Drink and Industry.
Regarding the main races, 'right now' human values are randomized, no more 'money obsessed xenophobes.
In the demo, random races only started appearing at maximum fantasy setting.
Post by: Dirst on May 25, 2016, 08:47:45 am
Toady, the myth generator is an exciting new feature, and I understand that it is likely to be largely unmoddable at first. But will modders have the ability to use the fantasy-ness ratings at all? For example, a tag that makes a creature/interaction/whatever available only if the fantasy rating is in the range X% to Y%?
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 25, 2016, 10:19:55 am
DF is full of procedurally generated races right now (titans, FB, spoilery things).
Regarding the main races, 'right now' human values are randomized, no more 'money obsessed xenophobes.
In the demo, random races only started appearing at maximum fantasy setting.
That does nothing to answer the actual question they had. ಠ_ಠ
Post by: Jimmius on May 25, 2016, 10:26:00 am
DF is full of procedurally generated races right now (titans, FB, spoilery things).
Regarding the main races, 'right now' human values are randomized, no more 'money obsessed xenophobes.
In the demo, random races only started appearing at maximum fantasy setting.
That does nothing to answer the actual question they had. ಠ_ಠ
Well to be fair 'Randomly Generated races only appear at max setting' does answer it. I like the Idea of a traditional 'Dwarf Fortress' but played amidst a backdrop of wacky magical events and structures. Or played in a super mundane world where the drama is driven by more mundane concerns (politics, religion, money). And then also having the option of turning it up to 11 and playing as the Krivig, a race of humanoid mole-rats with wings that hate the sunlight on a flat disk planet where I'm constantly attacked by all sorts of magical
PS. I don't really consider the current 'proc-gen' enemies as full 'races'. More like one-off mythical enemies. I think the 'middle of the road' option should be DF as it is now: Traditional Fantasy races, with the one-off baddies being procedural.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 25, 2016, 10:45:29 am
Then again, it's rather common to custom-gen a world solely to disable boogeymen, so we're already past the point where the default contains features that a good chunk of the players disable in the first place. So knowing that, if the default "fantasticness" setting still adds some random things that a majority of players will disable, it isn't that big a change from the status quo. XP
Post by: Witty on May 25, 2016, 03:14:05 pm
Why are demonic fortresses gone, and will they ever reappear? All I could find was a previous FOTF reply where you couldn't remember why you commented them out. Did you recall why?
In a similar vein, do you recall why deity-impersonating demons were removed as well?
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 25, 2016, 04:06:22 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on May 25, 2016, 04:26:34 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 25, 2016, 04:56:32 pm
Its a pity that animal men up sticks to elven civilisations so readily now, rather than stay in the crude settlements they live in naturally and occasionally harass your fortress livestock by killing it (& anything else they can handle) before dragging it off the map to cash it in, or at-least that's how i remember it. Then again i can't recall encountering a animalmen settlement (a collection of huts with a announcement) from fortress mode recently in the last couple of versions even in a abandoned state, so unless its been turned off or im just very poor at finding them they might as well not exist.
Its impossible to detect them before they emigrate via worldgen (because they are a hidden embark feature that doesn't appear on the map), though you can get a feel for how many animalmen are joining the elves on account of the 'Regions' part of the legends screen informing you of their point of origin before they join the elven civilisation. (maybe ill use that to try and track down some evidence of them being there soon)
In some strange way i never really understood how that worked, if i suddenly race-swapped today or put up the raws relatively close to elves (it might be a hardcoded thing with how animalmen work or purely worldgen) would i just get legions of animalmen turning up at my door demanding residency or equipped in their own or elfish crude goods rushing in? (sounds like science potential)
Running any kind of elven tavern is pretty much 200% impractical without extensive modding so i dont think id even get the opportunity to find out without dedicating time. Prior to the tavern update i only ever settled once (maybe twice) on a animalmen site above ground, and it was certainly tense, because they saw you, and you saw them constantly edging closer then backing off like annoying neighbours behind your back trying to do the worst stuff without being caught early on.
The only animalmen i usually see nowadays are tavern visitors and completely naked ??? hamster and rat men vermin running in from time to time as a 'animal spawn'. I miss it honestly.
And as for my first question -
If the 'layer linked' subterreanean races recieve any meaningful improvements or changes in the future, would this in turn be reflected upon 'native' pre-civilisation and pre-elven civ emigration races?
And without meaning to consume too much of your time, my second question -
Given that if the aboveground animalmen tribes are not layer linked and therefore 'invisible', would possibly in future versions their settlements more visible from the embark screen and have a wider reach as a set number of variable small entities on the map if they were implemented more fully?
Quote from: Suggestive Implications detracted from the question in order to maintain conciseness.
With something like 70% of all animalmen populations in that biome sourcing from that tribal site, represented as walking around in the world rather than like their gormless feral cousins. Unless we went a skulking self contained/hybrid entity route that grows bolder and larger from successful animal hunts/raiding parties or whatever is culturally appropriate, like hamster-men guzzler roast thieves, tigermen hunters and wombat man passive plant gatherers entering your fortress borders to collect supplies. Could flavour up worldgen a bit with goofy and more serious events such as a sudden explosion in beastmen toppling, conquering & assimilating both ways a worldgen civ into a rolling tide of sieges depending on cultural values.
To some extent under this model, even with no civilization the game could still effectively work in legends, with beastmen tribes passively growing their encampments and occasionally marching out to kill others (The tigerman high chieftain declares war on the polar bear man tribal council leaders over contested hunting rights for the bloody plateau shrubland & forest region)
Letting the occasional friendly member of that entity within walking distance arriving over settle in your fortress and therefore pledging loyalty to the dwarves eliminating localised loyalty conflicts would sound like a good resolution too. But this is all spur of the moment speculation that'd probably be better purposed into a thread.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 25, 2016, 05:25:37 pm
I just ate some gorlak brains, but I still can't carve goblin bones. I think it's been half fixed.
Strange. Still, I miss my minotaur leather loincloths. o3o
Plus again, giant desert scorpions. Yes, adding normal and animal-people versions would be more work, as would reworking the giant desert scorpion to be a creature variant of normal ones. But in the meantime, why the hell can't they just be added back in and reworked LATER? :V
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on May 26, 2016, 12:19:10 am
Why not just copy the raw-file from the wiki?I just ate some gorlak brains, but I still can't carve goblin bones. I think it's been half fixed.
Strange. Still, I miss my minotaur leather loincloths. o3o
Plus again, giant desert scorpions. Yes, adding normal and animal-people versions would be more work, as would reworking the giant desert scorpion to be a creature variant of normal ones. But in the meantime, why the hell can't they just be added back in and reworked LATER? :V
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 26, 2016, 12:21:11 am
Why not just copy the raw-file from the wiki?
I already have them re-implemented in Adventurecraft. Still, why doesn't Toady do this? It would be by far the most trivial thing to unbork out of all the things popping up as of late. -_-
Post by: DG on May 26, 2016, 04:12:31 am
For players it can be frustrating. If you play often, the annoyance of trivial issues can add up after a while. If you don't play the game much and are instead focused on implementing more major features (Toady) it probably makes sense not to invest time on trivial things when you still have important things to do. Note that I have some of the most trivial grievances around, but I try to stay zen about it, helped best by staying aware of how trivial they are.
Post by: Rose on May 26, 2016, 08:12:07 am
Post by: Greiger on May 26, 2016, 10:25:16 am
Quote
I've been playing around with its static code analysis tool, which located some interesting typos which have probably screwed up the medical bedrest and ghost behavior among other things.
I feel sorry for the code analyzer program. Either it saw the code and immediately reported that it was made by a high class Italian pasta chef. Or it had to sit in awe for a few moments as it had something akin to a programming religious experience.
Then it finally reports back something like "Dude, you know they stay in bed forever because you forgot to camel case on this line?"
Post by: Dirst on May 26, 2016, 10:35:36 am
My reaction was that a few interesting typos in the sim we live in could explain a lot of quantum mechanics.QuoteI've been playing around with its static code analysis tool, which located some interesting typos which have probably screwed up the medical bedrest and ghost behavior among other things.
I feel sorry for the code analyzer program. Either it saw the code and immediately reported that it was made by a high class Italian pasta chef. Or it had to sit in awe for a few moments as it had something akin to a programming religious experience.
Then it finally reports back something like "Dude, you know they stay in bed forever because you forgot to camel case on this line?"
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 26, 2016, 12:40:59 pm
Kind of reminds me of back when people were asking why Toady wouldn't just quick fix the issue of cats complaining that they had no hands. He can leave trivial issues lingering for a long time if he has a non-trivial solution in mind that will fix it later (and maybe especially so if it can be circumvented by simple modding).
True, but that adds to the frustration. Though honestly, throughout the whole of DF2014, I've never really found any problem with the sea of bugs, other than timeless annoyances like the gauntlet bug and custom reaction fuckery. And even those I shrug off because they tend to be high-hassle, low-reward bugs
It's just that .42.XX and .43.XX have seen a surge of new content with a seemingly disproportionate lack of bug fixes to go with them, especially relative to the amount of bugs created by each bit of new content. Seems like only recently that it's gotten to the point of frustration to me.
Or maybe my being a former contributor to Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead is now biting me in the ass, by way of every trivial-to-fix bug I encounter triggering my "fixitfixitmakeapullrequestyoufooool" reflex. >_>
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 27, 2016, 03:17:06 am
If you're only going to do one more bug fix release before rushing on, please aim it to clear out the worst bugs introduced in 0.42.X+. While I've found it encouraging to see a number of bugs fixed in the latest releases (and grabbing a bunch of "random" bugs now and then to squash is a good thing), it's a bit worrying that there doesn't seem to have been any directed effort to tidy up the issues created/revealed with zones/visitors. To make this into a question: what's your aim for bug fixing before moving on?
Post by: Bumber on May 27, 2016, 04:02:08 am
I disabled the tags and there don't seem to be any ill effects in world gen, if that was a concern. (I recall hearing about some old
Post by: LordBaal on May 27, 2016, 05:49:12 am
The question itself, the answer I think is for lore reasons more than practical purposes. Could goblins be considered lesser demons at some extent? I think they do.
Post by: DG on May 27, 2016, 07:07:47 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 27, 2016, 08:25:22 am
I have been doing the same with every release since forever. Even made a thread about it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=123064.msg4040600#msg4040600) and the other assorted changes I made. Removing the tags from goblins never had ill effects. Only once I saw them dissappear from the world and I don't think it was related to that but rather the small number of civilisations on that game.
The question itself, the answer I think is for lore reasons more than practical purposes. Could goblins be considered lesser demons at some extent? I think they do.
Eh. Whats to say the dwarves and the goblins (and perhaps the elves/humans too) are not all divisions of the psyche of Armoks first real attempt (on level with us IRL complex minded people) made in its own image deemed too dangerous to itself and the world it is placed in. Really who stands best chance to inherit the world?
Goblins tired of their harsh below ground existence not blessed with divine inspiration & general ambition formed a pact? Demons shaped the goblins out of dwarves/deep dwarves lower down in the abyssal earth? In the stories and DF lore goblins are cited to being native to the 'underworld' or somewhat close to the lava mantles, where often forgotten beasts roam and refer to themselves as "the true people" could be right that they are truly before time? could be wrong?
Anything goes i guess. That's what the future world creation story generator is out there for until the brothers put anything down clearly.
From memory, the brothers don't like to think of goblins as having to bother with things like farming (or any of the broader economics that come from having to eat).
It'd probably make sense that they & the trolls they bring with them partially devour bodies (with the civility to apply seasoning i hope) as well as their own kind from the scavenges of epic battles they have and sieges. If you can work out how much meat is on a dwarf and then equate roughly that 7 dwarves can feed twice as many goblins in a month (plus own casualties) from a half successful early siege. Sacking and murdering (taking the supplies contained within also) is going to always turn up a food profit as long as the goblin casualties are re-delivered to make break even in the worst circumstances.
Starve the goblins out by not fighting in a barren wasteland and they'll turn on themselves for all good reason. Nice to see some more dissent amongst goblins. Obviously goblins have some kind economics already, given that they do have crude industry to produce weapons, armour and whatever else they need at a local level (because no wagon accessibility without modding)
Post by: Witty on May 27, 2016, 08:27:55 am
From memory, the brothers don't like to think of goblins as having to bother with things like farming (or any of the broader economics that come from having to eat).
But how would the goblins feed their non-goblin prisoners then? I'd think that someone would have to grow a bit of food for them at the very least.
Unless all their food is collected from the local wilderness, or stolen.
And piggy backing off PatrikLundell, do you intend to continue on with this phase of extended bug fixes after the 64-bit rewrite?
Post by: Seagoon on May 27, 2016, 11:10:07 am
How difficult would it be to allow a caste to override the random selection of what caste to birth with a specific caste of the modder choice or even have a specific sub list of castes to produce? This seems like a feature that would give a lot of power to modders and it is somthing I have been waiting to be introduced for several years now :PIsn't that what pop_ratio does? When I did my steel angel experiment they were all female and often had trouble with world-gen pop numbers, later I added a 1:5000 ratio male adventurer-tuned caste and while they were around enough to keep them breeding and whatnot, checking legends I rarely saw them, and never encountered one in game. I did a similar thing with my dwarf male/female/dorf adventurer caste thing, where the dorfs had 0 ratio so they only showed up once in a blue moon during world-gen weirdness, unless chosen by a player to use that caste.
pop_ratio does what it says on the tin heh, each caste will have that chance to be born (1:10 1:948 1:10000 etc), it does not however do what i want to do which is discriminate which castes are born from which castes.
An example of what i want to achieve is this:
Caste A can give birth to Castes A, B, C
Caste B can only give birth to caste B
Caste C can give birth to only Caste C
The caste born would use the mothers limitations, so a Caste A father reproducing with a Caste C mother can only produce caste C.
Though thinking about it, maybe a caste should only be able to give birth to the intersection of the caste lists from both the father and mother, might be a more useful way of doing things.
What im thinking is that the pop_ratio tag would turn into [CASTE_BORN: GIANTBADGERDRAGONCARPUNICORNELEPHANT : 10] which just means that the caste with this entry will produce this cast in a litter 10% of the time. You can then just stack more of these tags to extend the list.
Post by: Dirst on May 27, 2016, 12:13:21 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It'd be nice to have that kind of feature available to modders, but not exactly a high priority when we have this whole wonderful myth generator thing to play with.
Post by: Seagoon on May 27, 2016, 12:31:06 pm
It'd be nice to have that kind of feature available to modders, but not exactly a high priority when we have this whole wonderful myth generator thing to play with.
Lots of reasons for it to be used heh, but im not sure why its not exactly a high priority because some unrelated feature is being worked on.
Also what should be considered high/low priority is kind of a personal thing. If it is not a big deal to implement im sure no one would complain to see it added in.
Post by: Bumber on May 27, 2016, 03:54:30 pm
From memory, the brothers don't like to think of goblins as having to bother with things like farming (or any of the broader economics that come from having to eat).They're defined as bone-eating carnivores.
Post by: falcc on May 27, 2016, 04:47:53 pm
Now that adventurers can put items on tables and there's a bit of picking-up going on in adventure mode with muggers and tavern keepers picking up dropped items, is there any plan for shopkeepers to start storing their stock on tables or in containers instead of all over the shop floor?
It'd certainly flesh out theft a little bit if you had to actually sneak past someone to get to the room with more expensive goods, with shopkeepers carrying things from displays to you, even if it's otherwise going to be shallow for a while. Speaking of which:
Are any crime and punishment arc elements planned for the artifact arc? Will stealing artifacts from an entity just turn the entire civilization you took it from against you like regular theft, or will people only request artifacts possessed by mega beasts or enemy civs until different entity sub-groups are more filled in? Will there be rumors about artifacts being moved around, who has stolen/liberated them, whether they've been spotted with someone in particular.
Actually here's an open question for anyone that knows, what happens to artifacts now if an adventurer dies with one away from a site? Just drowns or something. Is it lost?
also
You've talked about tea making before, there's the partially implemented pearl-crafting in the game already, and you've suggested wax might have a resurgence once you get to the lighting arc. Are there any more industries you're planning to implement into the game that aren't explicitly laid out on the development log? Short or long term, I'm just interested in what might eventually be coming even if it's a long ways away.
Post by: Taffer on May 27, 2016, 05:03:28 pm
Are there plans to automate turning on skills for dwarves? Alternatively, are there plans to make it easier to both manage large fortresses and to make it clear what dwarves would be best suited for a given skill?
EDIT: Found it (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_22_transcript.html). Selected quote is just a small part of the discussion. Both Toady One and Threetoe talk about it in the last DF Talk.
Quote from: ThreeToe
Also, it's a hint where we're going with this, which is to get rid of VPL all together, eventually.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 27, 2016, 06:13:57 pm
I would swear that at some point in the past, Toady mentioned overhauling the skill system to make it more automatic: eg, if a fortress really needed a new mason and jobs were piling up, it would automatically turn masonry on for an appropriate dwarf. It's frustrating that I can't find the quote. At the moment, it seems like many players either rely on an external utility (Therapist) or randomly assign jobs to dwarves, and neither of those two seem ideal.Oh please no that sounds like it would ruin the entire game for me.
Are there plans to automate turning on skills for dwarves? Alternatively, are there plans to make it easier to both manage large fortresses and to make it clear what dwarves would be best suited for a given skill?
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 27, 2016, 06:33:46 pm
Oh please no that sounds like it would ruin the entire game for me.
If automated labor-enabling was an option disabled by default, I can see it being nifty. I tend to dump desired labors on random dwarves that aren't doing anything at the moment. o3o
Post by: LordBaal on May 27, 2016, 10:55:25 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 28, 2016, 04:05:33 am
It sounds like something could be done from the manager itself to be even more realistic. Job asignations in times of need could work like that
If automated labor-enabling was an option disabled by default, I can see it being nifty. I tend to dump desired labors on random dwarves that aren't doing anything at the moment. o3o
Workshop profiles additionally so would help clean up the messiness of all the dwarves running to do a job if you wanted your specialists to get on with it now that i think about it.
Post by: DG on May 28, 2016, 06:41:46 am
From memory, the brothers don't like to think of goblins as having to bother with things like farming (or any of the broader economics that come from having to eat).They're defined as bone-eating carnivores.
Yeah, I know. I'm just sharing what I recall. But seeing as Footkerchief isn't here to do it for me, I decided to dredge up the post my memory is referencing. I can't seem to quote link it, either because the thread is locked or I'm dumb, so here's the search link http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg2243858#msg2243858 and a screenshot for people's convenience.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I think there was quite a debate about it before (or maybe after?) the Word-of-Toad pictured above, I can't quite recall. If people are interested they can skim the linked thread looking for the discussion, or just debate it again here which would probably cover most of what was brought up then.
Edit: Re-did the screenshot without cutting off Toady's bit this time ::)
Post by: DarkwingUK on May 28, 2016, 11:02:45 am
In general we as a player have an overview of all of the map that we have previously revealed in fortressed mode. So, we see when creatures arrive in the distant caverns or at the corner of the map, even if there is not a dwarf there to see it. I was wondering whether this was a design decision on your part (that the player has more of a god-like overview of the map), or whether in the future you were considering making a traditional fog-of-war type situation where revealed parts of the map would be known, but the state of the map in those places, and any creatures in those places would only be updated if a dwarf was there to see that area directly. limegreen
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 28, 2016, 12:51:40 pm
Making them able to eat has no visible effect as far as I can tell, and if anything having them able to eat, while having no apparent source of mundane livestock, being carnivorous, AND their entity being okay with cannibalism, seems infinitely more morbid than "herpderp we are unable to starve despite the fact that you'd never see us starve in-game anyway."
Post by: Bumber on May 28, 2016, 04:22:50 pm
That is nuts. It makes no bloody sense to have goblins unable to eat. Sure, having goblin herders sounds not-scary, but code-wise I've seen no actual problems with goblins ever starving as-is with the NOEAT and NODRINK tokens removed.And besides the fact that they actually do farm trolls for fur, they could also hunt and gather.
Making them able to eat has no visible effect as far as I can tell, and if anything having them able to eat, while having no apparent source of mundane livestock, being carnivorous, AND their entity being okay with cannibalism, seems infinitely more morbid than "herpderp we are unable to starve despite the fact that you'd never see us starve in-game anyway."
It really doesn't explain no thirst, either. Only dwarves are alcohol dependent, water is fine for everyone else.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 28, 2016, 04:56:13 pm
Possibly there were planned to or did at some point, and Toady then found a nonsensical lore reason after forgetting that those tokens are no longer needed. :V
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 28, 2016, 05:21:06 pm
It really doesn't explain no thirst, either. Only dwarves are alcohol dependent, water is fine for everyone else.
I contest this, it has been shown that historical violence attaches itself (its why vampires & goblins when observed via modding/otherwise complain of lack of alcohol) as a side effect to trauma and later psychological effects.
There is SOME application of goblins drinking for pleasure in formalised drinking establishments (its the only way to get it down them), but as of yet no formalised eating establishments (as per banquet halls scaling all the way to +finely crafted potato chip+ tavern speciality meals.) for pushing those roasts down their neck if they are going to be snotty about it. (else they are just feeding it to their mounts or the trolls i suppose.)
Could imagine that goblins besides being underlings themselves, probably view such tasks as beneath them and would much rather dote on stolen children/slaves/POW to do the job instead to disillusion themselves on power and re-enforce the image of violence. Take also as i've mentioned before, nearly all the materials the goblins source must come from somewhere, so obviously there is some kind of domestic workforce behind the goblin regime, even if they are relatively light workers (troll heavy hauling etc)
Goblins have lots of holes in their raws anyway that have to be covered by modding to make them feasable (which in itself is quite fun when brought up to primitive iron age dwarf spec, with a few new spins on the conventional angles such as managing lawlessness and frequent violence when turtling, inversely encouraging a head on aggressive approach) such as no brewable or vaguely usable harvestables (not even for very devious goblinesque poisons) besides from silver barb plants of their own biome for gutter cruor & black dye (which might be bugged since they never embark with the products of those goods - however it may be the case i never enabled the raws)
Even glumprong (also might be bug, though it is a common cart & evil biome material, i dont recollect when civ swapping seeing it on embark) is neglected by goblins but that may well be down to circumstances of location and raw relations. Officially beak dogs are common scout worldgen animals, which arent to say they arent lucrative when pimped up with good raws to enable them as pets as chickens on steroids that drop stones on death which is honestly the best.
I can only guess that goblins are fueled much more innately by demonic magic than other races that merely wrap it around themselves otherwise they'd be trash level jabberer feed. Non conventional techniques for coercion including torture may reinforce this. Maybe it'll show its true colours sometime in the future.
Question for toady.
Given the upcoming eventual magic arc, do goblins themselves (as either underlings, selfmade masters through overtaking demonic masters or individuals) have access to any particular 'school', alternatively 'branch' of exclusive magic? or do they remain a largely mundane or magically generic race when the big supernatural being leading them suddenly ceases to exist in the mortal world?
To be honest, with any host of filth, night, fire, or death sphere demons frontrunning those armies its going to be pretty intense on the magic effects that are open to use and potentially learn from. Taking tutorship from demons in the schools of magic upon binding them to yourself sounds like a nice bonus to a already very strong but unpredictable companion. At the expense of probably being branded a outcast and a heretical/unholy and un-natural warlock that is.
Post by: Witty on May 28, 2016, 10:01:45 pm
Now that adventurers can put items on tables and there's a bit of picking-up going on in adventure mode with muggers and tavern keepers picking up dropped items, is there any plan for shopkeepers to start storing their stock on tables or in containers instead of all over the shop floor?
Shopkeepers will already put their wares on tables...sometimes.
I'm thinking it's based on the local economy and what's available (and there are probably bugs associated with it somewhere). But if the stars align right, they should do it.
Toady, now that we have proper taverns in human towns and dwarven fortresses, do you have plans to go back and have dwarven hillocks create proper taverns? Right now they still use fake taverns that just have drunks milling around. And will we ever see drunks in proper taverns ?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 29, 2016, 04:13:46 am
In the first case, they ought to never surrender: either fleeing or fighting, but not accept being subservient to others (unless they're supposed to be sleeper agents). Also, they shouldn't be at peace with anyone: the only two modes would be war and not a current primary target (--------).
In the second case they can continue along the current path, but eat and drink like everyone else.
My personal preference is the second one. I'd welcome the introduction of a new "true" demonic race taking up the de facto vacant first position, though.
Post by: Repseki on May 29, 2016, 04:29:54 am
Actually here's an open question for anyone that knows, what happens to artifacts now if an adventurer dies with one away from a site? Just drowns or something. Is it lost?
I only recently jump back in DF so I might have missed something that changes it, but I don't believe artifacts being taken by adventurers really works that great at the moment, causing them to kinda poof once you aren't in the loaded area with them, if outside an actual site. They can be a bit weird even at sites from what I remember.
Hopefully someone that knows more can weigh in.
Post by: DG on May 29, 2016, 04:39:27 am
Excerpt: "They only hoped their families would be enslaved instead of burned alive and devoured by hungry goblins."
I wouldn't get too hung up on goblins as they stand (good advice for most of the game), whether you think no-eat is dumb or great. I don't think they are set in stone in Tarn and Zach's minds yet. You can take that as an invitation to lobby for your ideal version of them but that should probably be done in Suggestions. Personally, I think the brother's ideas for goblins are pretty cool, and I quite like the goblins as they appear in Cado's Magical Journey.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 29, 2016, 10:11:35 am
It's a gameplay workaround (again, sieges) that did not originally have a logical lore reason behind it, and giving it a lore reason just sounds idiotic. I suppose it's fine to have it as a gameplay advantage, but I still disagree with the "herpderp goblins are demons and therefore we have a retroactive excuse for a no-longer-needed logistical workaround" idea. :V
Post by: Imic on May 29, 2016, 01:12:40 pm
(http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2010/12/gilneas.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/UhZw4hG.jpg)
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on May 29, 2016, 01:24:15 pm
Could the humans have better architecture? Right now they're living in wooden boxes. Could we have architecture like... Gilneas? Maybe?Sites are still rather preliminary, at present. Taverns aren't even generated in Dark Fortresses that purportedly have them, and Fortresses are absurdly mazy. I believe the plan is for human architecture to eventually vary from civ to civ, but that's probably a ways off.
I would be highly surprised if Toady planned the mass-produced boxes-style of architecture to be part of 1.00.
Post by: monk12 on May 29, 2016, 08:18:31 pm
It's a gameplay workaround (again, sieges) that did not originally have a logical lore reason behind it, and giving it a lore reason just sounds idiotic.
Citation needed, sir.
Back when I started playing, goblins did not have NO_EAT or NO_DRINK (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/40d:Goblin). They were carnivores who were just assumed to raise lots of livestock and eat offscreen (much like the Humans and Elves.) The reason they got those tags was when the Caravan Arc started, one of the first changes was that civs started needing to have sources of food or they'd starve- at that point it was a conscious decision to make the goblin race more unique and "alien" rather than just being "they're like elves
You'll note that when goblins acquired NO_EAT and NO_DRINK, Humans and Elves did not; this isn't a case where all invaders had those tags to keep them from siegeing themselves to death, it was very deliberately goblin-specific. You might think it's kinda dumb and weird (I did myself at first) but to suggest that it's a "gameplay workaround" that they decided to prop up as lore is just false.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 29, 2016, 08:36:54 pm
Back when I started playing, goblins did not have NO_EAT or NO_DRINK (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/40d:Goblin). They were carnivores who were just assumed to raise lots of livestock and eat offscreen (much like the Humans and Elves.) The reason they got those tags was when the Caravan Arc started, one of the first changes was that civs started needing to have sources of food or they'd starve- at that point it was a conscious decision to make the goblin race more unique and "alien" rather than just being "they're like elvesbut evil."
That implies that the two implies are still connected, if they were changed at the same time that civilization starvation was implemented.
Note three things. First, humans and elves aren't carnivores. Two, they also have access to farming. Three, kobolds have had problems with starving out in worldgen, when they're ALSO a non-farming carnivorous race. That does need to eat.
So yes, it seems my initial guess that it was siege-related was incorrect. But it does suggest that it WAS meant to keep them from starving during worldgen, and later "propped up as lore" as you put it.
EDIT: See also, old issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4025 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4025)
Post by: monk12 on May 29, 2016, 09:58:33 pm
For example, kobolds being a non-farming carnivorous race that starved for several versions (.31.19 -> .34.03 according to that bug report) demonstrates that the issue was more severe than Today thought it would be when he initially made the NO_EAT call for goblins, otherwise he would have done it for kobolds at the same time with or without a lore justification instead of letting it be for quite some time.
Yeah, the goblins aren't conceptually quite the same as they used to be, but neither are the elves or demons or what-have-you. Again, you might not like this conceptualization of the race, and that's just fine, but if you're going to not like it at least have the grace to not like it for the flavor or the logical implications and consequences of that flavor, not because you think the whole thing is just a lazy excuse to solve an unforeseen problem.
Post by: Bumber on May 29, 2016, 11:20:01 pm
I meant only dwarves have [ALCOHOL_DEPENDENT], which slows them down if they don't drink it.It really doesn't explain no thirst, either. Only dwarves are alcohol dependent, water is fine for everyone else.I contest this, it has been shown that historical violence attaches itself (its why vampires & goblins when observed via modding/otherwise complain of lack of alcohol) as a side effect to trauma and later psychological effects.
I'm not sure why every single race has a Need (based on IMMODERATION) for alcohol, specifically. It could just be a placeholder. I bet all my animals' distractions are in part due to lack of alcohol, too.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 30, 2016, 03:12:23 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 30, 2016, 03:33:18 am
@Bumber: A number of reports on the forums indicate animals are distracted due to a lack of praying. That might not be the only reason, of course.
"Yesss, praise our dwarven masters, those who feed and shelter us. Now, fold our hands in...wait, these are paws. And ow FUCK, I just fell on my face trying to stay on just my hindpaws!"
Post by: Max™ on May 30, 2016, 04:08:24 pm
Mounts got brought up, and it was noted that horses are too big for a speardorf to ride into battle.
Nobody pointed out that minecarts are far better than horses (seriously, metal minecart > horse all day, every day... along with boar, yak, buzzard, bandit, kingsnake, my ribs, uh, I think there was an emu in there?) though a saddle would be nice.
As for buildings, check out temples to see where a few basic pieces and rules can make REALLY varied structures, having homes and shops and such be developed organically rather than "there needs to be a residence here, and a business there" will help too.
Now, a minor annoyance I had recently but which feels like it might have been deliberate.
As of 43.xx for sure, and possibly back in 42.xx it seems you can no longer interact with a minecart near lava and fill it up, even if it is magma safe, even if you are playing a creature which can just swim around in a volcano, we can't fill a container from lava.
If you acquire some magma, though, you can dump it out into a pool and happily fill anything from it. I figure that the magma being under the spilled liquids system is why that works, but there are times when even in a totally unmodded game your adventurer might come across a magma safe minecart and want to use it to say, cast a dam below the surface of a river running through your camp site.
Was leaving just the "heat near lava" option deliberate?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 31, 2016, 06:42:48 pm
I've finally gotten a fortress with a dwarf that worships a megabeast, and it's actually multiple rocs. So I'd like to make a temple to them, and it made me wonder if megabeasts can curse people now.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 31, 2016, 06:49:58 pm
Do dwarves that damage furniture in temples dedicated to megabeasts get cursed by the megabeast?
I've finally gotten a fortress with a dwarf that worships a megabeast, and it's actually multiple rocs. So I'd like to make a temple to them, and it made me wonder if megabeasts can curse people now.
That hinges on whether the game can associate statues placed in player-fort temples with curses in the first place.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on May 31, 2016, 07:12:04 pm
Oh, it does. This was mentioned in the dev-log, and there's been at least one instance of a vampire troll, thanks to it.Do dwarves that damage furniture in temples dedicated to megabeasts get cursed by the megabeast?
I've finally gotten a fortress with a dwarf that worships a megabeast, and it's actually multiple rocs. So I'd like to make a temple to them, and it made me wonder if megabeasts can curse people now.
That hinges on whether the game can associate statues placed in player-fort temples with curses in the first place.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 31, 2016, 07:13:59 pm
Post by: Putnam on May 31, 2016, 08:07:57 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on May 31, 2016, 08:35:23 pm
Pretty sure it would require the megabeast to know at least one MAJOR_CURSE interaction, if it works at all.Nah, gods can curse people no matter what they're associated with.
Post by: Putnam on May 31, 2016, 09:02:46 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 31, 2016, 09:35:17 pm
...With a MAJOR_CURSE interaction. I didn't mention anything about or related to spheres.
Ooh shit, you're right. But if you modded in a CDI for the relevant species of megabeast, it MIGHT work...
Post by: Toady One on June 01, 2016, 01:32:53 pm
Quote from: Max^TM
Would that same sort of "personal" interaction be expanded to stuff like priests and worshippers of a given deity being able to interact with/gain some sort of effect/curse via literally talking to/praying to their relevant god or gods?
Oh, actually, do you have any plans to expand the ask for directions options to include things like a temple, library, or tavern?
It's unclear if the interaction system I described would be an expansion itself of deity stuff or the other way around -- historical figures (like deities) already have a lot of the needed structures in place even if they don't use them. The deities shouldn't generally be less like people than the abstract forces, in any case, since those personality/individual/anthropomorphic characteristics are why they are considered "gods" in the game as it is (non-anthropomorphic concepts of a god would probably be considered a force in our game, structurally, even if the word is used more broadly in real life).
Better direction asking is in the short list of adv mode changes, so it'll come in before various other things, anyway, even if it doesn't have a timeline. We tend to work on several adv mode short list items with each adv mode update -- the next would be the adv mode parts of the artifact release.
Quote
Quote from: fearlesslittletoasterToady, would having unpredictable and dangerous magic be discovered in fortress mode really be a bad thing? Setting up a library, and presumably letting people into it who ponder magical things, would be a player choice. If the fact that things could go horribly horribly wrong was known then it would just be another thing that could be really... !!FUN!!
I realize this could also be rather frustrating in some ways, but from my personal perspective I find the idea of engineering around the problem really entertaining. I would be tickled pink if I got to design a series of "containment protocols"Quote from: NW_KohakuThat said, it's more than slightly distressing that Toady says he's deliberately adding something that he fully expects players will find "unsatisfying" in Fortress Mode because it's nothing more than a "your fort gets destroyed because LOL RANDUM MAGIC!" "feature"
...
That presumes there would be ways to engineer around the problem, and not, as most representations (including the one TOADY JUST GAVE) of the magic system would have it, simply having a text box pop up informing you that your fortress crumbled for no good reason because you were stupid enough to have a library.
I wanted to clear this up, since the thread became unnecessarily alarmist -- in my previous reply, I was not suggesting I want the unsatisfying option. That's why I called it unsatisfying. We used to have the demon end timer, and then we improved it, though I was still unsatisfied with adamantine spires, as I mentioned. And we want to continue improving, not going back to end timers or sticking with spire analogs. I'd rather not have magic in forts than just have it end the game randomly, which is why I said they wouldn't be safe or practical for fort mode and that it consequently wouldn't give those powers to fort mode races.
For fort magic, I think there's some room in between magma-ish "dangerous but predictable" on one hand and random end timers on the other, especially if it involves the player opting in, although I know that's been a huge argument in here about whether that's true.
Quote from: NW_Kohaku
Toady, how will players be expected to control dwarves with procedural magic, or procedurally created whatevers with magical powers that have dangerous effects?
Will their uses always be automated through usage hints, even if, say, "fading", to use the GDC example can mean that creatures will eventually kill themselves if players have no means of throttling their use outside extreme or indirect methods like forcing dwarves apart from enemies or whatever situation triggers use of magic? Or will there be ways to script conditions under which your charges can use magic or are told to hold their fire?
Likewise, is there going to be automated "needs"-style attempt to discharge negative consequences of magic like "fading" in the same way that a dwarf automatically goes to feed themselves when huger gets too high? Is this going to be some zone like a hospital or tavern, or would it be something you handle through goods production, or some sort of social behavior you need to script through some new interface?
Likewise likewise, magic in the GDC example uses "fuel" items to power magic - is this something you expect to be some sort of extension of the military uniforms to have fortress members equip "magic ammo", even if it means all civilians have to wear military uniforms? (Something of an exploit, but one players use on anyone not a miner or woodcutter, regardless...) Is this, alternately, something that you see occupying a different interface, like a unified magic-instruction interface?
Finally, if we're talking about libraries being places of magic research that blow up your fortress, will that mean there are methods of controlling what research actually takes place? To use the HFS example, one can always not dig, and one can have a good sense of how far you are digging to get a sense of what risks you are taking. Procedural tech trees, meanwhile, cannot so easily physically convey the concept of that danger, and is there even a way to stop such fortress-destroying research without outright shutting the library down or resorting to de facto demanding savescumming from players to prevent arbitrary fortress death?
I'm not sure how the specifics are going to work at this point, as usual.
A usage hint says what a power is for, roughly speaking -- there has always been more that the AI considers, and I don't see costs differently. They don't need to use powers until they die randomly. I don't think it's in the spirit of the game to have the player control exactly how dwarves behave, and it might be more of a personality matter how far they take their own side effects. It might be handy to allow some overall guidelines, especially if it concerns reagents and so on as well (which would presumably be produced or traded for, and hence something you have to moderate use of).
Specific effects from magically-induced states are the same as anything else. If a corrupted dwarf needs to drink more often, they'll drink more often. If they need anti-fading juice, perhaps you should have some around. The typical exposition problems for all random content apply, but we're not out to ruin the game and I'll endeavour to not force you to make a bunch of objects you don't know exist just to play, and if you do need some, you'll be given information about that.
Similarly for fuel items -- we'll need to tell you about them. Yeah, there are legitimate concerns about managing them, somewhere between drink and ammo depending on who uses them and how often. If it's too onerous, that sort of magic can be kept out of fort mode, but I don't think it'll come to that.
I've already addressed the specific library issue above, in terms of the end timer stuff, but overall, I assume people will be a little more eager to direct magic research than they are to direct research on other topics (at least while that research doesn't do anything). I don't have a problem with it telling you when you are going down a dangerous road and giving you a choice. That could end up being through a generated position or through petition. I'd rather not stop dwarves from sneaking off to do forbidden research if they want, but I'd simply stop it in the case of the apocalypse paths, most likely, while still contining to allow dwarves to become necromancers without asking you.
Quote from: Cruxador
Well when you simplify it that much, it doesn't sound very deep, does it? I think he meant more about divinity being a state of mind rather than some some "I believe it so it's true" 40k ork thing. The sort of stuff that comes up in the (currently growing in popularity) more mystic fantasy which draws heavily on Indian myth for inspiration. Like the works of Kirkbride, which I believe he was referring to, or something like Kill Six Billion Demons. From stuff you've talked about, I know most of your fantasy reading tends to be grounded in a more western paradigm, but have you kept up with other fantasy movements like this? If not, it might interest you to at least read what there is of the K6BD comic, and/or perhaps the roleplaying game. Of course there's a lot more writings to go with that, which is common to the subgenre such as it is, but that's more peripheral.
From India, I read the Ramayana and the Mahabharata (or much shorter novelized versions of them that still amounted to ~2500 pages) in preparation for the myth stuff. With the lists of named, graded, mostly-combat spells obtained from godlike beings, people ascending to godlike status, lots of physical demon-type creatures being fought by heroes in battles of various sizes, and more, those myths are more aligned with older pnp and computer RPGs than the traditional Greek/Christian/etc. stories are (I'm not sure where the inspirations go through those and 20th century novelists and then through DND to computer games and all that, and how much is a coincidence -- I assume this is a discussion had many times). Of course, the Indian myths are also very distinct, which is where we tried to take inspiration for the myth generator (not all of that has made it in yet, though some has). I'm not familiar with more recent fantasy takes on it.
Quote from: StupidElves
So, with some of the myths stating that there's like, a tower or a road to the heavens, does this mean that we will eventually be able to travel to them as physical places and kill the gods? Because some of the gods tend to be jerks, and they need to be taken down a notch.
If we can kill gods, what will that do to the world? Will creatures cursed by the gods that are killed suddenly be cured by their deaths?
There are separate issues. Traveling to planes is hoped for, but difficult. We'll get there eventually -- the current plan is that it overlaps significantly with dwarf-mode army stuff since the necessary changes for viewing distant sites are the same. Killing gods depends on whatever gods end up being and doing as we give them more featuers. If they physically manifest earlier, perhaps they'll be killable before planar travel, if killability is part of their deal. I have no idea what killability would imply. Nothing at first, then more as things get added -- it all has to be defined explicitly somewhere, at least in broad strokes, even if it's generated.
Quote from: Qmarx
The myth generator demo showed you forcing the myths to include a race and a celestial object, and the myth generator seems to need to create the gift of death to justify nonimmortal races.
Are there any plans to be able to force it to include a particular magic as well? For instance, you write up a RAW for shooting fireballs and include it in the list of things. Game reads the tags on it, and the myth generator includes something like with 'humans are spawned from the sun, so they can shoot fireballs', or 'celestial sparks hover above the ground, letting you carve fireball-shooting runestones'
I haven't thought specifically about modded fixed interaction entries that aren't just part of the creature entry, though the game supports stuff like the ones in the interaction examples folder (which are just copied from the current generated raws), so they'll need to be included somehow, since the current deity/secret etc. system will all be reworked. It's anybody's guess right now what the inclusion tags will be (I don't remember how it works now for player-made interactions, if they just go in the random pool but sometimes don't come up) and whether forcing will be initially possible.
Quote from: Witty
Toady, you mentioned in the last FOTF reply that you are planning an "artifact" release before the first myth release - which will include among other things more thieving. Do you intend to use that opportunity to give kobold sites the same overhaul that the other civ sites have gotten?
Yeah, that's in the short list for the artifact release, due to the increased importance of recovering artifacts from kobold sites.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Will conquered sites ever be transformed into other site types? Like, say, the humans conquer the goblins. They pull down the dark fortress, fill the underworld gate with rubble, build a keep, incorporate some of the towers into a wall, and fill the trenches with dirt. The dark fortress is now a town, with maybe a few signs of its former status. Sort of like how goblins build towers and trenches in sites they conquer right now.
The idea was to do more and more of that, but it's just sitting right now... I don't really like having different site types at all, though there have to be icons/names/etc. in some way, and those would have to change more or less discretely. I'm not sure when we'll get to additional changes along those lines.
Quote from: malvado
Do Toady and ThreeToe get any inspiration from Tv-series / Movies and popular books that are currently in progress? Game of thrones for an example? If that's the case do you have any examples of features that have been implemented or might be planned?
Not so much these days, since we're so backlogged already. We've been keeping up on Game of Thrones, but I don't think it has been having much of an impact on the notes. I don't know what else is currently in progress like that which is also DF-adjacent.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Toady have you ever read discworld?
I think I read one of the books many years ago. Something Egyptish.
Quote
Quote from: UntrustedlifeSo you just added those various giant creatures, however according to the wiki there are no giant ants yet, do you plan to eventually add giant ants and associated colonies? I have a feeling they would be very fun to delve into in adventurer mode and even in fort mode.Quote from: StupidElvesCould giant insects build colonies? Like, giant beehives and ant colonies that you can find in Adventure Mode and Fortress Mode.
The colony was the issue. We wanted to do it properly, which puts it farther down the line.
Quote
Quote from: FantasticDorfWith potential competition from the deep-dwarves, will the "animalmen-civilisation" see any kind of improvement upon their society structure? Rather than being primitive fodder for fortress mode smashing & adventure mode mercenaries, which all in all is a waste of their civilization generation entity file if they are going to be reduced to a turkey hunt.Quote from: FantasticDorfIf the 'layer linked' subterreanean races recieve any meaningful improvements or changes in the future, would this in turn be reflected upon 'native' pre-civilisation and pre-elven civ emigration races?
Given that if the aboveground animalmen tribes are not layer linked and therefore 'invisible', would possibly in future versions their settlements more visible from the embark screen and have a wider reach as a set number of variable small entities on the map if they were implemented more fully?
Not all civilizations have to be equally powerful, though they can afford to be more interesting. It's unclear quite how close the layer and non-layer animal people will be related in the end. We've continued to not work on either animal people or nomadic civilizations. The post-myth/magic law/status/property/customs release is probably the next chance for a shot at it, but it isn't guaranteed there either.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Why does carving a haft from a branch use carpentry instead of woodcrafting? And is there a reason you can take a masterfully-knapped sharp rock and never get quality out of a stone axe, because the reaction uses no skill?
And why are stone axes explictly a separate tool instead of a weapon? Hell, it'd make perfect sense if you were adding generic woodcutting axes for flavor, but you didn't add the token for making them out of metal, and didn't add it to any entities.
Why are splints craftable? You can't use them in adventure mode yet.
Because it looked like a table leg and not a figurine. Not that the skills make any sense overall. I don't know the situation with skill vs quality.
We were thinking of experimenting with item components with the stone axe, but it didn't end up happening, and things were going to migrate over to the tool framework.
There are lots of things that aren't usable in adventure mode.
Quote from: LordBaal
I'm really glad you are finally taking stabs at making the 64 bits version. What forced you to take this step? There was something specific or simply to allow us have bigger games? What would be the main (practical)differences between the 32 and 64 versions for us players?
It wasn't a forced step. It's mostly a memory thing. People started bumping up against the limit more often a while ago though, and it'll just get worse if we don't update. Linux people tell me the situation is also an annoyance over there, since they don't always have 32 bit support without doing some work.
Quote
Quote from: Dozebom LolumlazisToady, do you intend for plants with the same name as RL plants to share as many properties with the RL plants as possible?
If that's vague/confusing, here's a more concrete question: Is the bayberry tree supposed to act like real-life bayberry trees do, as much as possible?Quote from: BumberIs DF bayberry supposed to be a specific species, or a blending of different IRL species? The linked thread points out that they grow fruit, but are in climates that non-edible species are found in.
I don't have an exact policy for this. If there's only one plant/creature entry, it'll probably end up being a blend of existing species, but sometimes I like to pick one or the other based on the information I've found (or lack of information). Of course, I'd like to fix outright errors with them as well.
Quote from: kontako
In the preview for the myth generator you showed that all creation originated from a single primordial entity (Eternal mist, etc), will there be cases where multiple entities (eg Muspell + Niflheim) behave as the universe's progenitor?
Will there be deities with unknown / foreign origins to the main dynasty (eg Vanir to the Aesir)?
The myth generator has plenty of scenarios with multiple primordial entries. That's mostly how it is, though I don't remember which scenarios we had in the video. It'll sometimes start with coupled primordial gods + a primordial ocean + primordial sleeping animals, for instance. If they aren't primordial, they won't have unknown origins the way it is now (since all the non-primordial stuff comes from somewhere), but I think you can start with unrelated primordial titans and a primordial god, for instance.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Will adventurers be able to find uses for instruments that are similar to those they're familiar with? Like say, using a drum of one sort in place of a drum they don't have. Or maybe composing new songs that use instruments in their inventory, or selecting what they want to compose a song for, etc?
Because finding exactly what I need for the only forms of music I know can be annoying. Thing is, I have no idea what would be the easiest way to handle use of inexact instruments, code-wise. Though just allowing the use of different instruments of the same skill, for a skill penalty less severe than instrumentless improv, would be a massive improvement.
Yeah, it's sort of complicated which instrument would make a valid replacement. Just using any same-skilled instrument would be trouble since it might not even have different tones if those are required (so the current singing/humming simulation makes much more sense).
Quote from: Untrustedlife
You mentioned that deities forces and such take turns when generating the creation myths, are there any plans for a player to participate in the creation of myths as a deity/force/comet or whatever.
We had something along those lines in the distance future dev notes. There it remains. We might see some race-creation stuff/etc. earlier than that, but going through and deciding how the planes are created etc. in some sort of menu would only happen on a lark.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerAdventurer site building has the option to define taverns, libraries and temples as well as the mead halls you mentioned at the time of release. However, these don't seem to do anything right now. Unlike the meadhalls, they don't show up in Legends mode, so presumably are not defined as taverns, libraries or temples in the world and won't ever attract visitors. Is this just an unfinished feature, or is it supposed to work right now?Quote from: FantasticDorfWill certain procedurally generated and adventure mode retired embark locations such as taverns and temples or even just structures in the world ever retain private ownership by who owns the site even if it overlays your embark? (with ownership being tranferred upon admittance of themselves or their relatives to your fortress?) With diplomatic reprecussions for attacking such as taking a diplomacy hit and angering the occupants/relative nation.
And if this was so, could our own fortress dwellers find relevance in assigned dwarves (say its a 'trading license' of sorts) taking over private shopfront property independently to build skills, conduct commerce and interact with the wider world. In the sense that wagons sell in bulk to fortresses but traders and tourists probably want to buy our roasts with coins to a vendor. Very Recettear i guess
Nah, it's not supposed to work yet, though I was hoping to do a bit more with it before it was released as it is. I'm not sure what I'm going to do at this point.
The post-myth/magic updates related to status/property/etc. are going to open this up a great deal, as we'll be able to talk about ownership/usage rights at all. I'm not sure how it'll manage overlapping sites or how the site concept will change, since there are many ways it could go and it'll depend on what's on the table. Dwarves used to own their own shops in the fortress many years ago, but that was broken. We'll return to variations of that once we have a better framework, and the game will also understand what's up with all the human town shops as well.
Quote from: Seagoon
How difficult would it be to allow a caste to override the random selection of what caste to birth with a specific caste of the modder choice or even have a specific sub list of castes to produce?
I doubt it would be difficult, though the list of suggestions of not-difficult-to-add features is very long. If it's in the suggestions forum, it'll get added to the list.
Quote
Quote from: DGWill ghosts require a certain minimum fantasy level in the myth generator before they appear?Quote from: Shonai_DwellerAnd indeed, will the existence of ghosts altogether depend on the kind of afterlife and soul information output by mythgen?
Yeah, the ghost behavior is intended to be tied to both. In fantasy 1+ worlds, we'll likely bias the output toward dwarven ghosts until we have interesting-enough replacements possible.
Quote from: Max^TM
Love the fixed fame/bandit/citizens relationships and hearthperson quests, btw, and I do a lot of variations of them in different worlds. In large towns and especially after having become known to random people I meet as a legendary hero I started to observe something. From time to time when I returned to report on and get a new quest I would go and take the side/back exits from the keep (only found them because of civilians liking to use them) and hit the nearest road to start traveling.
Shortly after entering the travel map you get a check for nearby armies and will often see a few pop up and start wandering the streets as usual, but in the case where you're a Big Damn Hero you often find one that will follow you slavishly, even to nearby hamlets and lairs. Upon dropping out of travel mode and investigating I've learned these will generally be a squad of 4~6 recruits and occasionally a couple of skilled soldiers like a marksdorf or hammerelf or whatnot. They always tend to be amazed to meet me, say they are on a mission, do not trigger ambushes when crossing their * on the map, and usually turn back after I get a couple of world map tiles from the home town.
Was this intended behavior, with them being support/back-up or fans, or just an emergent quirk?
There are reputation-dependent checks for people not attacking you, and also some weird behaviors with friendly patrols tracking you but then not
attacking (but still continuing to follow). It could be a combination of those things.
Quote from: Thundercraft
Q1: After spheres are expanded on and there are more Secrets, will the Secret of Life and Death be adjusted/altered at all? Or is it currently as it was originally intended?
Q2: Will there be other Spheres, Secrets or deity boons which might grant Immortality?
Q1: I'm not sure the secrets of life and death will survive the myth generator in their current form. I expect its form will be varied.
Q2: Over time, but I have no idea in what order it will all come in.
Quote
Quote from: GrusWhy are demonic fortresses gone, and will they ever reappear? All I could find was a previous FOTF reply where you couldn't remember why you commented them out. Did you recall why?Quote from: WittyIn a similar vein, do you recall why deity-impersonating demons were removed as well?
Nope, the fortresses are just commented out and there's no indication of what was going wrong. I usually leave some sort of note for myself, but I must have been caught in the middle of it and then forgotten. Next chance for something to happen would be whatever happens with myth-related sites.
All of the impersonation code is still there, so I suspect that one is just a bug that came up as a side effect of some other change, though I might be forgetting something.
Quote from: CLA
Will the myth generator have separate settings for 1. frequency of supernatural vs natural beings, 2. overall fantasy-ness of all creatures together and 3. maximum and minimum supernaturalness? Or will there only be an overall "fantasy"-rating for a given world and you'd have to add what else you want with raws?
So what I'm asking is, if I will be able to make one world with a few necromancers, maybe a handful of vampires, 10 forgotten beasts/titans, and no more than a dozen animal people/men, with the usual amount of regular animals and standard races; another world with the same kind of creatures, but more necromancers, vampires, werebeasts, titans, etc, compared to regular animals and races.
And a third one where slightly supernatural creatures (say, elves and dwarves) exist, and slightly more supernatural creatures (maybe vampires and unicorns, creatures with superhuman strength), but neither total fantasy stuff (flying guts, primordial serpent gods), nor completely mundane creatures (dog, cat, human, peach faced lovebird).
Given how the detailed parameters already look, I'd expect there to be more than just one number, but I'm really not sure how it is going to break down at this point.
Quote from: Dirst
Toady, the myth generator is an exciting new feature, and I understand that it is likely to be largely unmoddable at first. But will modders have the ability to use the fantasy-ness ratings at all? For example, a tag that makes a creature/interaction/whatever available only if the fantasy rating is in the range X% to Y%?
Yeah, the parts of the presentation that were in notepad are intended to be moddable, though I'm not sure the astronomical objects will start that way (due to how deeply hard-coded they are now). Whatever the fantasy rating ends up looking like will be fully out in the text.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Do you have any plans regarding when to fix giant desert scorpions and cannibalism? You've said before that giant desert scorpions will be reimplemented, but it's been a while.
I don't have a specific time in mind.
Quote from: Japa
What toolchain are you using now?
On Windows I'm now using the free Visual Studio 2015, whatever it is called.
Quote
Quote from: PatrikLundellIf you're only going to do one more bug fix release before rushing on, please aim it to clear out the worst bugs introduced in 0.42.X+. While I've found it encouraging to see a number of bugs fixed in the latest releases (and grabbing a bunch of "random" bugs now and then to squash is a good thing), it's a bit worrying that there doesn't seem to have been any directed effort to tidy up the issues created/revealed with zones/visitors. To make this into a question: what's your aim for bug fixing before moving on?Quote from: WittyAnd piggy backing off PatrikLundell, do you intend to continue on with this phase of extended bug fixes after the 64-bit rewrite?
I'd like it to be playable more or less before moving on to a few months without releases. I don't plan to go on too much longer with these releases, since it has been months now, but it really depends on what we've got. From my perspective, I've already cleaned out the worst bugs from 0.42.X+, as it was a crashy mess before, but there are still many confirmed bugs to fix, and I'll clean up some more of them before I move on.
Quote from: falcc
Are any crime and punishment arc elements planned for the artifact arc? Will stealing artifacts from an entity just turn the entire civilization you took it from against you like regular theft, or will people only request artifacts possessed by mega beasts or enemy civs until different entity sub-groups are more filled in? Will there be rumors about artifacts being moved around, who has stolen/liberated them, whether they've been spotted with someone in particular.
You've talked about tea making before, there's the partially implemented pearl-crafting in the game already, and you've suggested wax might have a resurgence once you get to the lighting arc. Are there any more industries you're planning to implement into the game that aren't explicitly laid out on the development log? Short or long term, I'm just interested in what might eventually be coming even if it's a long ways away.
We're not going to get into crimes and punishment until the law rewrite, so if anything happens it'll probably be drastic or just more people spitting on you, but regular civs will probably seek each other's artifacts, or at least actors within those civs. The artifact release (releases? dunno) will definitely see artifact rumor/quest/seeker/collection/hoard/wtvr additions for adv mode.
We're interested in actually implementing everything that now appears in the knowledge system, which includes all sorts of objects/industries, but it's unclear what we'll get to and in what order it will happen, and I'm sure there are many industries that will come up before we theoretically finish up the ones currently in the knowledge system. But I don't have any interesting ones to highlight, and nothing nailed down on the horizon.
Quote from: DarkwingUK
In general we as a player have an overview of all of the map that we have previously revealed in fortressed mode. So, we see when creatures arrive in the distant caverns or at the corner of the map, even if there is not a dwarf there to see it. I was wondering whether this was a design decision on your part (that the player has more of a god-like overview of the map), or whether in the future you were considering making a traditional fog-of-war type situation where revealed parts of the map would be known, but the state of the map in those places, and any creatures in those places would only be updated if a dwarf was there to see that area directly.
It was and continues to be a speed issue as much as anything, though we made some progress there recently when we did all the adv mode stealth stuff a while ago and gave each dwarf slightly more comprehensive creature spotting abilities. I'm ambivalent about doing it overall -- the vision range of dwarves is really small compared to how far they should be able to see. Overland sieges would be strange if we stuck with 25 tiles, but it's more cpu heavy to let them see farther -- and more generally, the number of lookouts you'd need is just too high right now due to the vision range.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Given the upcoming eventual magic arc, do goblins themselves (as either underlings, selfmade masters through overtaking demonic masters or individuals) have access to any particular 'school', alternatively 'branch' of exclusive magic? or do they remain a largely mundane or magically generic race when the big supernatural being leading them suddenly ceases to exist in the mortal world?
The way it is now, they might end up quite magical if the settings are cranked up, and they'd likely end up with darker magics than the other races, since there'd be sphere (or whatever) biases (in vanilla, anyway) and biases in what they are created from and how (which then influences the type of magic they get -- for instance, goblins are already more likely to arise as the result of a curse on another race, which would influence magic types). So it'll be up to you, more or less, or you can leave it up to the computer.
Quote from: Witty
Toady, now that we have proper taverns in human towns and dwarven fortresses, do you have plans to go back and have dwarven hillocks create proper taverns? Right now they still use fake taverns that just have drunks milling around. And will we ever see drunks in proper taverns ?
Yeah, that was just a time-crunch/oversight/whatever. We want them to have proper taverns, but like all small changes we passed up at their proper time it is now in limbo. I have no idea on the future of the drunk as a unit type.
Quote from: Max^TM
As of 43.xx for sure, and possibly back in 42.xx it seems you can no longer interact with a minecart near lava and fill it up, even if it is magma safe, even if you are playing a creature which can just swim around in a volcano, we can't fill a container from lava.
If you acquire some magma, though, you can dump it out into a pool and happily fill anything from it. I figure that the magma being under the spilled liquids system is why that works, but there are times when even in a totally unmodded game your adventurer might come across a magma safe minecart and want to use it to say, cast a dam below the surface of a river running through your camp site.
Was leaving just the "heat near lava" option deliberate?
I don't recall making a deliberate change, but I can check and mark it off one way or another if there's a bug report.
Quote from: vjmdhzgr
Do dwarves that damage furniture in temples dedicated to megabeasts get cursed by the megabeast?
It appears that they need to have the deity flag, which is only given to the ones that are actual gods rather than objects of worship.
Post by: Max™ on June 01, 2016, 02:02:56 pm
I don't know why I didn't think about the following groups as being patrol related, I think because they don't give the "I'm walking my patrol" response. Still a neat sort of touch either way.
I'll go put up a bug report about the filling thing, guess I just lumped it in with the "can't eat intelligent creatures or sleep in the mountains or cut trees with stone axes" stuff in my head rather than a unique issue, though the mountains were fixed.
The deity impersonation works great btw, I gave that tag to dragons after making them intelligent, and the more effective dragonfire is amazing. I've never seen statues explode or people running around with exploding coinpurses (outside of using dfhack to set their coins on fire) and it is awesome in a horrific sort of fashion.
I was kind of torn about the 1 hour=1 log stuff with adventurer sites when you first mentioned it, but it's such a handy way to pass time now!
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 01, 2016, 02:03:40 pm
Quote
Because it looked like a table leg and not a figurine. Not that the skills make any sense overall. I don't know the situation with skill vs quality.
We were thinking of experimenting with item components with the stone axe, but it didn't end up happening, and things were going to migrate over to the tool framework.
Regarding the skill, I guess I can understand it. There is no real internal consistency yet that dictates that adventurer-made items with no workshop use a given skill. It only really seems logical to me because that's the logic I've used for skills in modding, just force of habit essentially.
Reactions that don't have a skill assigned to them can never produce products with quality. See issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9769 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9769) ArmokGoB made the suggestion that you use the same logic as dwarves making rock stone swords, and give it the stonecrafting skill.
Quote
I don't have a specific time in mind.
Again, because a partial fix is trivial, I'm requoting my remark earlier:
Plus again, giant desert scorpions. Yes, adding normal and animal-people versions would be more work, as would reworking the giant desert scorpion to be a creature variant of normal ones. But in the meantime, why the hell can't they just be added back in and reworked LATER? :V
Post by: Witty on June 01, 2016, 03:37:27 pm
QuoteI don't have a specific time in mind.
Again, because a partial fix is trivial, I'm requoting my remark earlier:Plus again, giant desert scorpions. Yes, adding normal and animal-people versions would be more work, as would reworking the giant desert scorpion to be a creature variant of normal ones. But in the meantime, why the hell can't they just be added back in and reworked LATER? :V
You do realize you can just copy the raws from an older version and paste them into any creature text file and they'll work fine, right? They're even on the wiki, here. (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Giant_desert_scorpion)
I can't speak for Toady, but I imagine this issue falls in the line with the other hundred trivial fixes. The real question is what makes this one more important than the others? Kobolds have been trivially broken for a while now. (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9620) Why shouldn't that issue have priority over this one?
And if it's a trivial issue - it's a trivial fix for both the user and Toady. If the user can easily fix a bug, does it really need to be even thought about when there are other far more pressing bugs plaguing the latest version that the user cannot fix at all?
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 01, 2016, 03:47:46 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on June 01, 2016, 05:23:26 pm
Interesting answers as always.I think it's best to just keep the haft as using the carpentry skill, until other reactions are introduced that use woodcrafting. I feel like it would just be a bit of an annoyance to have a skill exclusively for the creation of wooden hafts.QuoteBecause it looked like a table leg and not a figurine. Not that the skills make any sense overall. I don't know the situation with skill vs quality.
We were thinking of experimenting with item components with the stone axe, but it didn't end up happening, and things were going to migrate over to the tool framework.
Regarding the skill, I guess I can understand it. There is no real internal consistency yet that dictates that adventurer-made items with no workshop use a given skill. It only really seems logical to me because that's the logic I've used for skills in modding, just force of habit essentially.
Reactions that don't have a skill assigned to them can never produce products with quality. See issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9769 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9769) ArmokGoB made the suggestion that you use the same logic as dwarves making rock stone swords, and give it the stonecrafting skill.QuoteI don't have a specific time in mind.
Again, because a partial fix is trivial, I'm requoting my remark earlier:Plus again, giant desert scorpions. Yes, adding normal and animal-people versions would be more work, as would reworking the giant desert scorpion to be a creature variant of normal ones. But in the meantime, why the hell can't they just be added back in and reworked LATER? :V
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 01, 2016, 06:14:38 pm
I think it's best to just keep the haft as using the carpentry skill, until other reactions are introduced that use woodcrafting. I feel like it would just be a bit of an annoyance to have a skill exclusively for the creation of wooden hafts.
Which gives me a dozen or more reasons to change it in Adventurecraft, at least. XP
Post by: Chaoseed on June 01, 2016, 06:32:27 pm
From India, I read the Ramayana and the Mahabharata (or much shorter novelized versions of them that still amounted to ~2500 pages) in preparation for the myth stuff. With the lists of named, graded, mostly-combat spells obtained from godlike beings, people ascending to godlike status, lots of physical demon-type creatures being fought by heroes in battles of various sizes, and more, those myths are more aligned with older pnp and computer RPGs than the traditional Greek/Christian/etc. stories are (I'm not sure where the inspirations go through those and 20th century novelists and then through DND to computer games and all that, and how much is a coincidence -- I assume this is a discussion had many times).
That's really interesting, actually. I don't know if anyone has had that discussion...
Quote from: UntrustedlifeToady have you ever read discworld?
I think I read one of the books many years ago. Something Egyptish.
That would probably be Pyramids!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2016, 07:03:51 pm
Have you considered reading more Discworld books?
Post by: Gashcozokon on June 01, 2016, 07:14:20 pm
Do you think that, similar to graphical tilesets, there will be a list/file which will allow assignment of specific character codes to units by profession and/or the rest of the item set?
Post by: Bumber on June 01, 2016, 07:26:57 pm
That isn't at all convincing. I require a substantive reply. Etc.
Does your stance on goblin [NO_EAT][NO_DRINK] remain a permanent lore decision, and not a practical one?
Edit: To clarify the above: I want to know if you've decided that vanilla DF goblins are a race which must inherently not need to eat, or whether any alternative that ends in the same aesthetic is still on the table.
Keeping in mind that goblins ethics hold cannibalism to be a personal issue, and pillaging settlements is very war-like, I would think it could be pulled off without resorting to meat herding.
They could also be granted the tags later by magic, if their demon overlord were so inclined.
Just food for thought. Now that goblins are living in our forts, I felt it merited reconsideration.
Post by: conflictensues on June 01, 2016, 08:11:27 pm
Again, I've fixed that myself. But if it's trivial to fix, that makes it irritating that two or so minutes can't be set aside to fix it in the vanilla game proper. The very fact that it's so bloody quick and easy to fix means that while it takes me only a minute each version to fix it when I get an update, it also means that it would take Toady a minute to fix it for good.
There is also something to be said for non-tech-savvy people as well as for the sheer number of people. That aside, I kind of get how fixing trivial bugs is annoying since after doing so and making a major update it essentially puts the whole thing back on square one. That aside, don't the modders usually have a lot of bug fixes in dfhack (forgive me if I'm wrong; it's been long since I've used it)? It seems like if DF is on github trivial fixes could be made and subsequent merge requests added by players. If it isn't and it's private that's another issue, although I'd point out Space Engineers is proprietary and open source which, to my knowledge, is working for them.
In the end it isn't something that is 'that simple,' so whatever the status quo or decisions moving forward won't receive any dissent from me. I just wanted to throw in my two cents. ^.^
Post by: Dirst on June 01, 2016, 08:16:15 pm
DFHack is generally for tweaks and fixes that can't be done through raw modding, and Starter Packs will usually come preconfigured with the stable fixes on by default. Raw fixes tend to accumulate in the Modest Mod. No pressure, Button :)
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on June 01, 2016, 08:35:52 pm
Apologies if I've asked this before, but is there a chance of you ever devoting a release to polishing off the raws? I appreciate the practicality of the case-by-case strategy you use for adding tags, but it does tend to result in some frustratingly rigid parameters.
Post by: Miuramir on June 01, 2016, 11:29:52 pm
You skipped over my question about goblin drinking/eating.
Quite possibly because it's far from new; and generally, the people who seem to bring it up don't seem to have a good argument. As one tiny example, here's some of the explanation I went into when we went over this in 2014 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145797.msg5887290#msg5887290) and in 2015 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148697.msg6055802#msg6055802)
There are four more-or-less solid and one fuzzy arguments in favor of the current situation (goblins that only die due to damage, basically) that have been mentioned several times; to summarize heavily:
* Having a race that only dies by violence (no starvation, no old age) gives the possibility of fascinatingly different societies not possible in our universe, and extends the viability of some that are technically possible but unlikely and/or unstable. This both provides variety, and opens up the "state space" that DF can generate stories in.
* Having a "bad guy" race that is capable of thriving in dark wastelands, blasted areas, and so on is thematically useful; many fantasy genres have these sorts of situations. (In many cases, they simply ignore the logistics of it, but DF forces you to be explicit about such things.)
* Having a "bad guy" race that is not limited by traditional logistics is useful from a gameplay perspective, in that it allows a wider variety of strategic interactions. Sieges on glaciers, armies marching under the glare of hostile volcanoes, dark fortresses that hold out even against millennia of encirclement, and seemingly endless waves of foes in situations where the defenders are barely able to hold on; all of these are increased options for fun *in addition* to the sorts of fun one can have against realistic human and mostly-realistic humanoid foes.
* Eventually, the procedural generation of species, worlds, civilizations, mythologies, etc. will throw out some seriously weird and nifty results. Having the "canned" races that we poke around with in the early days of alpha testing (ie, now) include some unusual combinations with strong strategic and grand-strategic implications increases the chances that the underlying engine being developed will be able to handle even more exotic situations down the road, when we might end up with Fantasia-like seasonally-empowered faeries going to war against mushroom men from the depths, or whatever.
* More philosophically, they are that way because that's the way they are in the "default" setting... the authors (Toady and Threetoe) have created their personal variations of various fantasy classic races and settings, and those traits (such as cannibalistic elves, plentiful magma held in by impossible materials, and goblins not dependent on a baggage train) are part of what you get. The default, existing, "traditional" setting for DF is a fair ways up the level-of-fantasy / level-of-magic scale; people tend to underestimate that because the majority of the worked-out parts they come into regular contact with in the current early-alpha state tend to be semi-realistic.
The arguments against the current situation never seem to be very solid; the best I've heard are roughly as follows:
* It's not realistic. Admittedly, it isn't... but the counter here is that DF isn't realistic by default in a zillion other places, and why should this be different? If you're trying to generate a wide spectrum of fantasy worlds, having societies mostly limited to the sorts of things we have exhibited, or even *conceived of*, as humans seems to be terribly limiting.
* Changing goblins to be a lot more boring doesn't actively break the game most of the time. OK; there are a lot of changes you can make to DF that reduce the variety and wonder of the worlds and situations that it can create, that don't break it (much). This is one of them; that doesn't mean it's a good idea in the general case.
Looking ahead, DF will have one or more likely several "dials" that allow adjustment of how "fantastic" the setting is. People arguing against the current standard goblins seem to largely want those settings fairly low; there's nothing wrong with that, but "mostly realistic" universes are a tiny subset of the interesting universes that DF can, and particularly will be able to, create. If you personally don't like them, in the future you will be able to easily adjust the "fantasy" level; for now, a few trivial text file adjustments or using a mod will get them out of your way. But it's important for the future scope of DF for the stock setting today to cover some weird stuff, so that the engine we're gradually helping test is robust against the greater weirdness of the future.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 02, 2016, 12:52:35 am
The arguments against the current situation never seem to be very solid; the best I've heard are roughly as follows:
Consistency with literally every other adventure-playable race, especially now that we have playable goblins, isn't a solid argument as well? It's not merely unrealistic, it's unrealistic while rendering a major part of adventure-mode survival irrelevant, when it COULD be a decent challenge to be carnivorous and able to starve. Keep in mind just how important food and water is in adventure mode.
You also seem to have decided that "gameplay reason came first, and the original reason is no longer needed" is apparently not a factor.
Post by: PTTG?? on June 02, 2016, 01:12:11 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 02, 2016, 01:28:55 am
Post by: DG on June 02, 2016, 02:07:18 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
:D This reads to me like "I know you've said that you made goblins [NO_EAT] for lore reasons, but that's so dumb you must have other reasons, maybe subconscious ones. What are these other real reasons? Also, when do you think you'll realize how dumb [NO_EAT] goblins are and change it back to how they should be?" Good to see the return of the walking-hat-ball-thing avatar, btw.
I don't think they are set in stone in Tarn and Zach's minds yet. You can take that as an invitation to lobby for your ideal version of them but that should probably be done in Suggestions.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 02, 2016, 02:18:57 am
:D This reads to me like "I know you've said that you made goblins [NO_EAT] for lore reasons, but that's so dumb you must have other reasons, maybe subconscious ones. What are these other real reasons? Also, when do you think you'll realize how dumb [NO_EAT] goblins are and change it back to how they should be?" Good to see the return of the walking-hat-ball-thing avatar, btw.
It's sad that I'm still convinced that the lore reason came after the now-unneeded gameplay reason. ;w;
Post by: conflictensues on June 02, 2016, 02:26:34 am
For every one thing you don't like in DF, there'll be ten people who do like it, twenty people wanting you to just mod it for yourself, and the rest wondering why you think it's an issue.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
:D This reads to me like "I know you've said that you made goblins [NO_EAT] for lore reasons, but that's so dumb you must have other reasons, maybe subconscious ones. What are these other real reasons? Also, when do you think you'll realize how dumb [NO_EAT] goblins are and change it back to how they should be?" Good to see the return of the walking-hat-ball-thing avatar, btw.I don't think they are set in stone in Tarn and Zach's minds yet. You can take that as an invitation to lobby for your ideal version of them but that should probably be done in Suggestions.
It's not like I don't get your point, but why the mockery? It isn't like satire can't be used as a... shall we say, 'enlightening,' tool but I believe there is a time and place for it. Hear in the threads you are just going to start a flame war. All the civilizations will kill themselves in a blaze in spite of toady's best efforts to withhold the secrets of fire and the post-apocalyptic survivors will weigh down the interwebs for time beyond time with signs reading, "Don't feed the trolls."
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 02, 2016, 02:40:39 am
Just edit the raws to eat & drink, upgrade the goblins to hold nest boxes and have beak dogs be their all purpose pet. Theoretically infinite food from beak dog eggs as well as a good supply of gall stones (and hefty food returns off the beak dogs themselves) to sustain a fortress in and out of mode. [GEM_PREFERENCE][PACK_ANIMAL][WAGON_PULLER] and that's 2/3 of this basic economy out of the way.
It's just a pity that goblins can't cultivate via some kind of evil garden plant common domestic (([common_domestic][outdoor_gardens])) silver barb plants for extremely cheap and suitably quite nasty grog of gutter crour on goblin sites (or the open-endness to apply anything else to the raws). Not to mention fashionable black dye on all those subterreanean clothes ready to be embedded with your fancy bird gut stones in cheap designs.
Substitute outdoor gardens for indoor ones for plump helmets with some final tweaks here and there Viola! enjoy 'violence fortress 2.0'
Post by: timotheos on June 02, 2016, 07:17:11 am
Now I don't have to put all my stone in different piles I'm really noticing how much I have to keep splitting the food pile for different productions. And all the different plant and animal types make it really hard to find particular ones to exclude/include. Plus the odd overlaps between clothes, armour and finished goods. and probably lots of other different player specific annoyances.
Post by: DG on June 02, 2016, 08:01:05 am
but why the mockery?
Yeah, fair point. It was needlessly snarky so I apologize for that.
Theoretically infinite food from beak dog eggs as well as a good supply of gall stones (and hefty food returns off the beak dogs themselves) to sustain a fortress in and out of mode.
You have to consider what it is the beak dogs are eating in such quantities to be able to lay all the eggs and provide all the meat that the goblins get from them. Food production and consumption in DF isn't realistic but should improve over time. Entire populations of giant whatevers needing to eat and how they get enough is more of a problem in my mind than goblins not doing it. Current farming (especially underground) throws up more believability issues for me than goblins, too.
Post by: Thundercraft on June 02, 2016, 08:47:54 am
Similarly:
Will there eventually be a way for the actions of an Adventurer to create a new Evil or Good area?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 02, 2016, 09:42:57 am
*Subject to whims, obstacles, and derails.
Post by: voliol on June 02, 2016, 09:43:32 am
1. Will there be artifacts with "souls", like a talking sword or maybe a soul jar that an important person could store their own soul in. I think you've addressed this topic before and said you wanted to implement it sooner or later, but will it appear in the "artifact update"?
2. Will your dwarves be able to create artifacts that are actual living(or non-living) units? Like a golem of some kind.
3. Will there be multi-part artifacts? Say something really powerful like a door to the demon/god realm would need both the door itself and the keystone needed to power it that is made separately.
4. I think you've said something about artifacts getting different effects depending of what caused their making (fey, inspiration by gods, possession etc.). What are the current plans regarding the differences?
Post by: ZM5 on June 02, 2016, 09:49:48 am
So the next big update is the "artifact update" right? I got some questions about what kinds of artifacts will appear.Questions in lime green.
1. Will there be artifacts with "souls", like a talking sword or maybe a soul jar that an important person could store their own soul in. I think you've addressed this topic before and said you wanted to implement it sooner or later, but will it appear in the "artifact update"?
2. Will your dwarves be able to create artifacts that are actual living(or non-living) units? Like a golem of some kind.
3. Will there be multi-part artifacts? Say something really powerful like a door to the demon/god realm would need both the door itself and the keystone needed to power it that is made separately.
4. I think you've said something about artifacts getting different effects depending of what caused their making (fey, inspiration by gods, possession etc.). What are the current plans regarding the differences?
Post by: Thundercraft on June 02, 2016, 10:55:40 am
You have to consider what it is the beak dogs are eating in such quantities to be able to lay all the eggs and provide all the meat that the goblins get from them. Food production and consumption in DF isn't realistic but should improve over time.
In terms of both realism and game balance, there are a lot of aspects of DF that could use tweaks, not just food production and consumption. If you question what beak dogs could eat in order to (theoretically) provide enough eggs and meat for goblins, consider: (1) There are many carnivores in the game and, unlike grazers, what they eat is not simulated. This includes even common domestic animals like dogs and pigs. (2) I'd imagine that Beak Dogs would be much like pigs from hell: They'd eat practically anything, from roots and whole plants to bugs and other vermin, from tripe and other animal/humanoid parts to feces. (Pigs really are that gross!) (3) Goblins would most likely not rely entirely on Beak Dog eggs and flesh, also consuming other things.
Spoiler: Consider, too: (click to show/hide)
Current farming (especially underground) throws up more believability issues for me than goblins, too.
While it may seem far-fetched for such to grow fast enough to sustain a civilization, underground farming does not give me much pause in terms of believably. Life has a way of filling empty niches. Bacteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria) can grow not just in soil, water, and flesh, but also in acidic hot springs, radioactive waste, and in rocks nearly 2 miles deep into the earth. They can even subsist on dissolved compounds, like hydrogen sulfide and methane near hydrothermal vents. Some microbes can even grow in the vacuum of space (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia#Research_in_outer_space).
Aside from bacteria, certain types of fungi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungus) thrive in the absence of light. Mushrooms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushrooms) and molds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold) are able to derive nourishment from breaking down organic matter.
As for what organic matter sustains underground crops in DF, they grow on soil or muddied rock. Many soils are rich in organic matter. We can also use fertilizer to increase yields. And while not simulated, what do you imagine happens to the feces of the inhabitants of a fort, particularly the animals and any imprisoned creatures?
Myself, I like to imagine that many underground crops are similar to lichens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichens). Lichens are not plants. They're two species in a symbiotic relationship - either fungus with algae or fungus with cyanobacteria. Now, imagine an exotic fungus in a symbiotic relationship with a bacteria that can break down the minerals in clay or soil to form nutrients it can use.
If that still sounds too fantastic, consider:
Spoiler: Some very bizarre scientific facts (click to show/hide)
Post by: voliol on June 02, 2016, 01:56:01 pm
Thanks, fixed it.So the next big update is the "artifact update" right? I got some questions about what kinds of artifacts will appear.Questions in lime green.
1. Will there be artifacts with "souls", like a talking sword or maybe a soul jar that an important person could store their own soul in. I think you've addressed this topic before and said you wanted to implement it sooner or later, but will it appear in the "artifact update"?
2. Will your dwarves be able to create artifacts that are actual living(or non-living) units? Like a golem of some kind.
3. Will there be multi-part artifacts? Say something really powerful like a door to the demon/god realm would need both the door itself and the keystone needed to power it that is made separately.
4. I think you've said something about artifacts getting different effects depending of what caused their making (fey, inspiration by gods, possession etc.). What are the current plans regarding the differences?
Post by: Nopenope on June 02, 2016, 06:15:01 pm
Post by: Bumber on June 02, 2016, 09:19:46 pm
This reads to me like "I know you've said that you made goblins [NO_EAT] for lore reasons, but that's so dumb you must have other reasons, maybe subconscious ones. What are these other real reasons? Also, when do you think you'll realize how dumb [NO_EAT] goblins are and change it back to how they should be?"The stated reason was that they didn't want "meat herding" goblins. I want to know if it's Word of Toad that vanilla DF goblins as a race must inherently not need to eat, or whether any alternative that ends in the same aesthetic is still on the table.
People can change their minds when circumstances change. The decision was made in 2011 when we didn't have goblin citizens. Those don't seem to fit in with the wasteland goblins as previously described, nor is their lack of needs fun from a fort standpoint.
One of my offered solutions involved it being a supernatural power (Hey, Myths and Magic Arc!) that was bestowed via pact upon the civ or individual, not the race. They could even have demonic artifacts (e.g., that refill with demon blood) that nourish them. I'll put my ideas in Suggestions if and only if Toady says he's still willing to consider alternatives. Otherwise, there's no point.
Post by: conflictensues on June 02, 2016, 10:52:19 pm
...
One of my offered solutions involved it being a supernatural power (Hey, Myths and Magic Arc!) that was bestowed via pact upon the civ or individual, not the race. They could even have demonic artifacts (e.g., that refill with demon blood) that nourish them. I'll put my ideas in Suggestions if and only if Toady says he's still willing to consider alternatives. Otherwise, there's no point.
I doubt ideas are unwelcome even if the object is not held in common. People have, as you mentioned, the right to change their minds. I guess I'm just saying to use your voice! ^.^
Post by: Thundercraft on June 03, 2016, 10:59:28 am
I'd love to know the reasons why. Does it have to do with size? The Black Bear may be smaller than a Grizzly or Polar Bear, but it's still quite large compared to other trainable animals. The Wolf is a rather large, too. The domestic dog is trainable and it's rather small, by comparison. Canines are known to be quite intelligent, so they should be at least capable of training. And in terms of tameness and potential to turn on handlers, are Wolves really any worse than Lions and Leopards?
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 03, 2016, 12:13:45 pm
Post by: Button on June 03, 2016, 01:23:15 pm
Why are some large predators like the Dingo and Wolf not hunting or war trainable, while other large predators like the Leopard and Lion are hunting / war trainable? (Also applies to Giant versions.) Even more confusing: Why is the Black Bear not hunting / war trainable when both Grizzly and Polar Bears are?
I'd love to know the reasons why. Does it have to do with size? The Black Bear may be smaller than a Grizzly or Polar Bear, but it's still quite large compared to other trainable animals. The Wolf is a rather large, too. The domestic dog is trainable and it's rather small, by comparison. Canines are known to be quite intelligent, so they should be at least capable of training. And in terms of tameness and potential to turn on handlers, are Wolves really any worse than Lions and Leopards?
I always assumed it was based off whether Toady could find historical evidence regarding the training and use of a given species. And as I can confirm, having done similar such things for types of stone, research is a big pain in the ass when you're looking for something like "did anyone historically use this" instead of more concrete things like material data.
I find it extremely unlikely that anyone has historically used polar bears for war or hunting, given that they're the most dangerous-to-humans predator on the planet; while we know for a fact that people have used wolves.
I suspect the distinction between which animals are TRAINABLE or not is mostly an accident of creation order: a large fraction of the TRAINABLE animals (not counting variations, which just inherit) have been around since 40d.
Post by: Jimmius on June 03, 2016, 06:12:31 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 03, 2016, 06:37:59 pm
I find it extremely unlikely that anyone has historically used polar bears for war or hunting, given that they're the most dangerous-to-humans predator on the planet; while we know for a fact that people have used wolves.
I suspect the distinction between which animals are TRAINABLE or not is mostly an accident of creation order: a large fraction of the TRAINABLE animals (not counting variations, which just inherit) have been around since 40d.
True. :V
Post by: Pseudopuppet on June 06, 2016, 01:00:56 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 06, 2016, 01:53:16 am
With the introduction of alcohol inebriation, taverns, and temples, I feel as if the effects of the stress system have become quite rare. It's almost as if one needs to intentionally and actively stress out the dwarves to actually see the effects of it nowadays. It's not like we need to go back to the old days where a tantruming dwarf can send a fort into ruin, but is the current state of almost-permanent euphoria among your dwarves intended for now?
See issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9660 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9660)
I made a fort with the explicit purpose of going WELL beyond intentionally and actively stressing out the starting seven, and it did jack shit for a year and a half or so.
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 06, 2016, 02:07:42 pm
Post by: Mr S on June 06, 2016, 06:19:29 pm
In worldgen, will there ever be fights of more than just one-on-one?
Ever, is a very long time frame. If you're referring to how armies fight in worldgen, then yes, improved abstraction of group combats, sieges, skirmishes and such are planned to be worked on as Toady gets to them. As usual, the answer is somewhere around "Sounds good. No timeline."
Post by: Capntastic on June 06, 2016, 11:45:01 pm
PM me questions for Toady to answer live at the Dwarfmoot event.
Post by: pikachu17 on June 08, 2016, 09:28:08 am
just what do PATTERN_FLIER and UNDER_SWM do?
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 08, 2016, 03:17:36 pm
just what do PATTERN_FLIER and UNDER_SWM do?UNDERSWIM is a relic from the days when DF was only 2D, and does nothing. Don't know about the other.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 08, 2016, 08:02:39 pm
just what do PATTERN_FLIER and UNDER_SWM do?UNDERSWIM is a relic from the days when DF was only 2D, and does nothing. Don't know about the other.
Actually underswim is relevant to whether a aquatic creature can naturally dive and stay under the water as opposed to being on top of it if memory serves (unless in later additions as you point out [aquatic] has replaced this notion)
Normally because they are tagged together aquatic and underswim are rarely seperated from one another. Simultaneous underswim and aquatic tags are relevant to specific holding conditions, such as aquariums for vermin fish (which cannot be interred into cages, so your most valuable river fish can be sorted into aquariums and sold at a profit rather than eating them) and larger aquatic creatures. (If you can excuse the bugs surrounding them dying of beaching due to dwarves being careless to their requirement to breathe water and save states not resetting when they are put in the tank.)
Post by: Max™ on June 10, 2016, 08:33:01 am
We can encounter/be sieged by/loot world-gen enemies in full armor?
Did you ever know that you're my hero? You are the
Post by: peasant cretin on June 10, 2016, 09:21:25 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 11, 2016, 10:55:49 pm
^ That was #1 on the wishlist. Too awesome :)Tarn's explanation of what went into fixing that and what has to be fixed to make sure nothing else goes wrong as a result of fixing it was highly entertaining. Item wear, broken necks, ripping helmets off unconscious opponents. Awesome stuff to look forward to.
Post by: Zesty on June 11, 2016, 11:03:31 pm
Ocean Titans don't seem to get generated anymore. Can we expect to see them terrorizing the seas when boats are introduced? We currently have Sea Monsters (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Sea_monster) but they're limited to evil regions and don't have that randomly generated charm.
Post by: Inarius on June 12, 2016, 04:21:03 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 12, 2016, 06:05:09 am
Post by: kane_t on June 13, 2016, 03:06:19 pm
I really like the way noble requirements shake up your fortress design and force you to think more carefully about your layouts, and I especially (no sarcasm!) like the way managers and bookkeepers actually require offices to do the work that lets you access basic interface functionality. But, as it stands, unless you sprout a lot of barons, there are only very few positions like that. Chief Medical Dwarfs don't even need an office to work. I'd really like if there was more of an administrative class in fortress society, especially if it was tied into core simulation mechanics (eg., make it harder to keep dwarves happy, and then add a Therapist noble position that helps sad dwarves).
Post by: LordBaal on June 13, 2016, 04:38:51 pm
To further what I mean, I'm imaging zones where they can make up their own rooms/houses, workshops, markets, churches, taverns and so on at their own wits within the same site of your fortress.
Post by: exdeath on June 13, 2016, 07:29:20 pm
I have a question about the myth thing.
At GDC it was said that you can set the myth level, that limit the stuff that can happen on the world, humans as some example have an ultra low mythic level and so they can happen even with a ultra low myth level.
My question is, does setting your world mythic level to a high value, force the world generation to generate high mythic level creatures/stuff, or the world will generate itself logically as it always do and if it the generator "feels" a higher mythic level thing is needed it will put this thing without rejecting the world?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 13, 2016, 07:46:08 pm
I have a question about the myth thing.Questions in lime green, like this.
At GDC it was said that you can set the myth level, that limit the stuff that can happen on the world, humans as some example have an ultra low mythic level and so they can happen even with a ultra low myth level.
My question is, does setting your world mythic level to a high value, force the world generation to generate high mythic level creatures/stuff, or the world will generate itself logically as it always do and if it the generator "feels" a higher mythic level thing is needed it will put this thing without rejecting the world?
Post by: Greiger on June 13, 2016, 11:28:03 pm
Quote
...and some combat AI to make people remove helmets from unconscious opponents. Then the release should be ready.Every time I look at the devlog lately I squee a little. Just a little. Enough to be awkward when reading on a phone at a funeral, but not enough to be heard across the room.
No longer will one of the first things I do with new versions be modding helmet coverage from 100% to 80%. Because people should be smart enough to take the bloody thing off now!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 13, 2016, 11:32:39 pm
- The giant cave spider carefully removes the swordsdwarf's helmet...
Post by: Eric Blank on June 14, 2016, 12:17:28 am
Post by: SmileyMan on June 14, 2016, 03:56:29 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 14, 2016, 09:27:56 am
Well, that's to be expected in dwarf fortress. I imagine later bug fix notes will mention "stopped unintelligent creatures from figuring out how to undress and disarm opponents"
I can see this being bloody inevitable, but on the other hand I suspect it will cause bugs of even stranger nature. o3o
Post by: iceball3 on June 14, 2016, 01:16:57 pm
So wait...my tactic of distracting the GCS by having it gnaw uselessly on the Captain of the Guard's steel helmeted head until the rest of the squad turn up might not work any more?Personally, I'd be kind of against non-intelligent creatures pulling something like this off. If anything, though, you'd think a GCS or other creatures would just start biting random body parts after a few glancing blows to the head.
- The giant cave spider carefully removes the swordsdwarf'spantshelmet...
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 14, 2016, 03:44:17 pm
So wait...my tactic of distracting the GCS by having it gnaw uselessly on the Captain of the Guard's steel helmeted head until the rest of the squad turn up might not work any more?Personally, I'd be kind of against non-intelligent creatures pulling something like this off. If anything, though, you'd think a GCS or other creatures would just start biting random body parts after a few glancing blows to the head.
- The giant cave spider carefully removes the swordsdwarf'spantshelmet...
Actually, that brings up a good point.
What led to you adding the "NPCs can remove enemy helmets" idea instead of targetting other bodyparts? Especially since both would presumably be triggered by enough ineffectual head strikes, was there a specific reason you decided to implement that instead of something simpler like a "target some other part" mechanic?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 14, 2016, 04:39:21 pm
Because targetting other armoured body parts would result in an endless fight. The point is enemies can now come completely armoured. And while it would be amusing for goblins to rip off a dorfs pants half way through a fight, the helmet kind of makes more sense, don't you think?So wait...my tactic of distracting the GCS by having it gnaw uselessly on the Captain of the Guard's steel helmeted head until the rest of the squad turn up might not work any more?Personally, I'd be kind of against non-intelligent creatures pulling something like this off. If anything, though, you'd think a GCS or other creatures would just start biting random body parts after a few glancing blows to the head.
- The giant cave spider carefully removes the swordsdwarf'spantshelmet...
Actually, that brings up a good point.
What led to you adding the "NPCs can remove enemy helmets" idea instead of targetting other bodyparts? Especially since both would presumably be triggered by enough ineffectual head strikes, was there a specific reason you decided to implement that instead of something simpler like a "target some other part" mechanic?
Post by: peasant cretin on June 14, 2016, 07:09:24 pm
Post by: Witty on June 14, 2016, 07:15:03 pm
Post by: Mr S on June 14, 2016, 07:23:51 pm
What are the requirements for an opponent to remove helmets? Does the creature in question need to be intelligent, or can large predators remove helmets as well?
To Witty, and others, there is a partial answer to this in the devblog. It seems that unintelligent creatures will not be pulling off helmets. The removal of helmets is specifically mentioned for unconscious opponents.
Note also, importantly, the mention of neck/joint damage. So, an unintelligent creature spam attacking a helmeted dwarf's head may just result in death by broken neck.
As a side effect of this, we should do !!SCIENCE!! on whether Coinstar training rooms now become potentially deadly.
Post by: mifki on June 14, 2016, 07:56:45 pm
Post by: Dirst on June 14, 2016, 07:58:13 pm
And what about OS X and Linux? GCC 4.5 is quite ancient. Do you own a Mac or how do you build for OS X? Also letting you know that unlike other platforms there's no need to support both 32/64bit versions for OS X, as there are no separate 32/64bit version of the OS and the only hardware not capable of running 64bit binaries is from about 2006.Every time this topic comes up, my trusty old VIC-20 cries :(
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 15, 2016, 12:59:29 am
Because targetting other armoured body parts would result in an endless fight. The point is enemies can now come completely armoured. And while it would be amusing for goblins to rip off a dorfs pants half way through a fight, the helmet kind of makes more sense, don't you think?
Isn't the throat always exposed though? >_>
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 15, 2016, 02:11:59 am
Is it? Ha ha. Time for some throat armour.Because targetting other armoured body parts would result in an endless fight. The point is enemies can now come completely armoured. And while it would be amusing for goblins to rip off a dorfs pants half way through a fight, the helmet kind of makes more sense, don't you think?
Isn't the throat always exposed though? >_>
Well anyway, necks and throats will nicely smashed up by hard blows to the head after the update, so no need to aim there.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 15, 2016, 02:58:06 am
Post by: Dirst on June 15, 2016, 08:46:30 am
@Mr S: Coinstars went potentially deadly more than a year and a half ago when coins actually started hitting. I disabled mine rather quickly after that update, although the damages at that point were limited to a number of cases of broken bones.Equipping and training a militia is a complex socioeconomic undertaking in a highly detailed fantasy simulation. Of course you can't solve it by simply throwing money at the problem :)
Post by: Cormack on June 15, 2016, 10:41:47 pm
Towns look really bad now, there are no homes where people would actually live, and existing buildings look not realistic at all. The keep is nothing but a buidling with one throne inside, no rooms for the lord or his guards to live in, no royal bureaucrats, no dungeons, just several towers with nobody in them. Taverns are especially bad - there are a couple of tables and chairs are clustered in one part of the building while the rest is empty. There are usually about 2 rooms. There are dozens of merchants coming to the town and only two rooms for them. There are usually no guests, and in towns no tavern owners. There are no granaries, no wells, no walls, no town guards.
Dwarf fortresses are very bad too - although there are a lot of rooms for dwarfs to sleep in, they spend all day in a meeting area and sleep there too. There are no military barracks, no guards keeping watch, taverns look as bad as in towns, there are no temples or libraries, no place to eat food properly with tables and chairs and kitchens. Sometimes their rooms lack beds too, and the corridors seem to be a maze instead of as efficient as possible.
Villages look very small and lack life entirely. There are no fields or farm animals at all.
Dwarf fortress looks really fine now, it is mostly realistic and plausible, but the adv mode seems unrealistic and lacks life. Surely, there are many villagers, but they do nothing at all - they never even sleep in their beds, just stand in one place.
I really like that there are new features, but I humbly believe that it is the world that needs fixing first. I want it to look realistic.
Post by: Max™ on June 15, 2016, 10:55:28 pm
I agree that world-gen forts are a problem, the way everyone wants to rush up or down the rampspiral every time you load it is what finally made me eliminate them (well, that and my early bad luck at finding libraries) in favor of having humans and dorfs build towns/hamlets.
I see field plots, livestock, all that sort of stuff.
How many worlds have you played around in, how large are they, how old are they, how big are these towns? Have you found a masterwork symbol town which seemed dead and lifeless and wasn't actually in ruins?
Post by: Nahere on June 15, 2016, 10:57:00 pm
Post by: Ekaton on June 15, 2016, 11:16:29 pm
As to the tavern owners in towns - I think they either don't always spawn or are not always present in taverns. In a dwarven fortress for example I've visited tavern and there was nobody there but when I returned a couple of real time minutes later the owner was there.
As to the unplausible look of the fortresses/cities - yeah, that is true, mainly because dwarves don't sleep in their rooms but together in their meeting areas. Also, those need some of the facilities that you can build in the fortress mode - hospitals, temples (I've seen those only in towns and they are odd because there are numerous bodies actually lying threre on the floor, not even rotten I think and guards were patrolling the catacombs, yuck), barracks, training grounds for soldiers. It is not as bad as you describe it, but could definitely stand some improvement.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 16, 2016, 12:59:46 am
In short, not a place I'd like to explore. o3o
Post by: Dirst on June 16, 2016, 01:05:58 am
Granted, one's opinion of what a realistic worlgenned dwarf fortress would be influenced by your normal build style in fortress mode. For example, mine would have a trade depot out in the open, near a basic archery tower, and near a rather nondescript ramp leading into the inevitable cage traps, drawbridges, and dog-based airlock, into a hideous grid composed of 5x5 rooms where workshops, storage, giant communal bedrooms etc are haphazardly laid out.When you run across a worldgen fort with an entry hall full of cagetraps, you'll rue the day you asked for more player-ish forts :)
In short, not a place I'd like to explore. o3o
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 16, 2016, 02:06:27 am
When you run across a worldgen fort with an entry hall full of cagetraps, you'll rue the day you asked for more player-ish forts :)
Assuming cage traps will ever work on adventurers, which I suspect won't be on Toady's to-do list for a while. o3o
Post by: Cormack on June 16, 2016, 04:44:59 am
Post by: Repseki on June 16, 2016, 05:03:50 am
Pretty much everything you mentioned in your post is definitely in the latest version in one way or another. It being adventure mode, it's not exactly easy to tell what all the NPCs are really doing, so it can be hard to judge just how much "living" is going on, but they do seem to be doing their own thing rather than just mulling about in a single room. Not that things can't be improved, but it's not really a top of the list issue.
I have noticed the central City towers tend to have fewer floors/rooms than they used to though, often just being the main room and stairs down into whatever catacombs there are beneath it. You can find some more complex human buildings near hamlets that have "Lords" in them, with a bit more varied architecture.
Post by: Cormack on June 16, 2016, 05:25:08 am
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 16, 2016, 08:46:50 am
Post by: Cormack on June 16, 2016, 02:34:42 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 16, 2016, 05:15:55 pm
I've seen some of the URR generated sites - they look much more real that DF ones - both larger and more plausible, and from what I remember the NPCs there have their own daily routines, unlike in DF, where they will work in a certain place, return home at certain time and go to sleep in their own beds.You know that's all the URR AI does right now, right? And actually doesn't right now until all the bugs are fixed. Different game, different priorites, completely off topic.
Post by: Max™ on June 16, 2016, 11:09:46 pm
...unlike in DF, where they will work in a certain place, return home at certain time and go to sleep in their own beds.
Well...
'Why are you traveling?' "Going to the tavern." 'Tell me about yourself, do you have any kids?' "As a matter of fact I do, my daughter is a scholar and spends most of her time trying to understand the world."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
'How about you? On a patrol I bet?' "Nah, was just at the well rinsing crud out of my beard." 'Ah, cool.'
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
'So tell me, preacher, what is all this?' "It is a place where all who wish to do so can gather together and appreciate the glorious storms our god creates for us."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yes I'm filling in a bit of the dialogue*, but you get the basic idea that they're out and about doing their own thing, rather than just waiting for me to come on the map so they can exist until I move out of range.
*This is a big part of why I like playing around in the worlds I make with df, when I stopped thinking about the little symbols or what they represent and just started thinking in terms of the game world and what is going on there, I really fell in love with the whole project. All the little things Toady wants to have in there because it wouldn't feel like the same sort of world without them. All the frustratingly endearing quirks that come about from various parts being implemented before others, even the occasionally crippling bugs wind up being entertaining (who ordered all those horses again?) when you stop and think about what the hell is going on sometimes.
I've only been playing for about two years, though I've been aware of the game in some way for a few years before I started with 40.06, but looking back and playing the earlier versions, following along through that development cycle, and then this current one I'm still struck by the ridiculous amount of promise it shows when you consider that the most finely tweaked and tuned worlds I make with whichever parameters I've found lead to the most interesting and unexpected behavior, all the things I do and see and take part in or just let happen, are under half of the way to where he wants these worlds to go.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 17, 2016, 12:36:16 am
Post by: Thundercraft on June 17, 2016, 01:14:02 pm
Quote
06/12/2016...
...As part of the recent fix that brought armor back to invading soldiers and others, we need to deal with the effectiveness of armor, since there are too many fights that never end. To this end, we're going to do armor item damage...
As part of adding armor item damage, are there any plans to allow dwarves or other crafts-persons the ability to repair damaged armor? Or will players be forced to either obtain or make new armor and either sell or smelt (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Smelter) badly damaged armor?
Also, I wonder whether or not armor made of 'candy' and other exotic materials will resist item damage any better than steel and standard fair. If it's not even possible to repair candy/secret armor, it would be frustrating to loose them as obtaining or making such is rather difficult/dangerous.
Post by: Max™ on June 17, 2016, 01:55:50 pm
Post by: Putnam on June 17, 2016, 01:57:57 pm
Post by: imperator on June 18, 2016, 11:53:44 am
Post by: vjmdhzgr on June 18, 2016, 12:11:04 pm
As you flesh out adventure mode and make it even more alive (which seems to be a focus lately), do you think it will be possible for players to become lord, lady, king, emperor where they will lead armies, engage in political simulation/intrigue, hold court and make decisions for the realm and its inhabitants?I know Toady wants to do that, but it's very far away from the plan of what to do next, which was to improve artifacts, then make embark scenarios along with being able to manage settlements of dwarves surrounding your fortress, but aren't directly part of it. Now Toady might just continue along the path of adventurer stuff, but that would be quite a large diversion from the plan so I somewhat doubt it will be up next. Though considering the stuff with how you're going to be able to manage sites outside of your own in fortress mode, that might extend to adventurer mode and improve your nobility positions such that you can be lord of multiple towns and actually have that mean something, as it's a somewhat related issue there.
Post by: WordsandChaos on June 19, 2016, 05:16:05 am
Could we eventually see books burn to ash? As much as the thought makes me uncomfortable, I'm imagining a scenario where a great store of information is lost from the world when a fortress library is destroyed by a dragon/forgotten beast/angry dwarf with a torch.
Sorry for the bombarding of questions - one tends to lead to another.
Edit post release, part of my question was answered.
Adamantine is ridiculously strong and exactly as tough. It is impossible to bend. It may actually behave identically to the current version with all that taken into consideration.
I'd like to point out that not bending, in something like a sword, is not a good thing. Not matter how tough something is, it breaks. Especially if it doesn't bend. From a gameplay 'balance' perspective - even the 'endgame' stuff should have weaknesses. An immortal hero is not a hero - it's just boring.
Post by: therahedwig on June 19, 2016, 06:03:54 am
Hm... I wonder if the myth arc will mean some of the hardcoded myth stuff, like adamantine will dissapear...
Will it be possible for modders to introduce some 'hardcoded' elements into mythgen? Like, for example, a God of War named Mars, or a God of Music named Eru Iluvatar? How much do you think it'll be possible to shape mythgen over time?
Post by: WordsandChaos on June 19, 2016, 08:56:47 am
Surely, that would make Adamantine more like Ultima's "Glass Sword": Super strong, but single use, effectively.
Hm... I wonder if the myth arc will mean some of the hardcoded myth stuff, like adamantine will dissapear...
Will it be possible for modders to introduce some 'hardcoded' elements into mythgen? Like, for example, a God of War named Mars, or a God of Music named Eru Iluvatar? How much do you think it'll be possible to shape mythgen over time?
Adamantine: Not single use. Far more hard wearing and effective, but not without eradicating risk. Nothing should be utterly impervious is what I'm getting at.
God names: Initially, wouldn't the names just depend on the language files? I'd assume you could just mod those in. A bit hit and miss as to what you get.
Post by: thvaz on June 19, 2016, 10:22:31 am
Surely, that would make Adamantine more like Ultima's "Glass Sword": Super strong, but single use, effectively.
Hm... I wonder if the myth arc will mean some of the hardcoded myth stuff, like adamantine will dissapear...
Will it be possible for modders to introduce some 'hardcoded' elements into mythgen? Like, for example, a God of War named Mars, or a God of Music named Eru Iluvatar? How much do you think it'll be possible to shape mythgen over time?
Adamantine: Not single use. Far more hard wearing and effective, but not without eradicating risk. Nothing should be utterly impervious is what I'm getting at.
God names: Initially, wouldn't the names just depend on the language files? I'd assume you could just mod those in. A bit hit and miss as to what you get. You theoretically
DF's combat is so complex that there usually more than one way to circumvent an obstacle. Adamantine armor is already vulnerable to adamantine weapons, concussion damage is modeled in the game, and you can always take off the armor from a enemy. Toady just needs to taught the AI to make effective use of them all.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on June 19, 2016, 01:14:12 pm
Sure, everything breaks even if it doesn't bend, but the thing is, that's for real life. Adamantine is not a real life metal. Adamantine would break the laws of physics in so many ways if it existed in real life. It's material stats are like cheating and just putting the maximum amount for everything. It's 4 times better than steel in steel's best statistics. For most it's over 10 times better. If the new system takes into account the material of the armor, at all, I'm pretty sure adamantine's going to be undamageable.Adamantine is ridiculously strong and exactly as tough. It is impossible to bend. It may actually behave identically to the current version with all that taken into consideration.I'd like to point out that not bending, in something like a sword, is not a good thing. Not matter how tough something is, it breaks. Especially if it doesn't bend. From a gameplay 'balance' perspective - even the 'endgame' stuff should have weaknesses. An immortal hero is not a hero - it's just boring.
This is not to say that it makes all dwarves wearing adamantine armor immortal heroes. They'll still be more vulnerable than before. It used to be that steel was actually better than adamantine for most parts of armor because good steel armor could already completely negate the edge of the attacks of the copper or iron weapons invaders would be using, and steel was a bit better at resisting blunt damage. Now if the dwarf is knocked unconscious, either by blunt damage going through the armor and breaking a few bones, or by constantly being attacked and dodging, and attacking, and moving so much that they fall over and keep fighting until they pass out from exhaustion (which will eventually happen), then their helmet will be removed and they can be killed. It was kind of silly to suggest that armor damage would result in a dwarf being made vulnerable before exhaustion, pain, or blood loss from the fact that if armor's being damaged then the dwarf behing it is probably being damaged would.
Post by: Max™ on June 19, 2016, 02:21:58 pm
The max edge on candy is 100000, this is a point where it isn't even sensible as a physical object, the closest super material I can think of with support by any sort of theoretical physics is Xeelee Construction Material. This stuff is made by more or less magical hypertech and involves turning off the Pauli Exclusion Principle so electrons and protons fall into the same ground state, producing a material with no empty spaces like regular matter, as thick as a proton, and the amount of energy released in this process would be massive, so the binding energies would be massive, i.e. this stuff could tank a nuke or sit inside a star without damage.
Candy has some properties which are arguably more extreme than this impossible "so advanced it's literally magic" material, like the infinite speed of sound due to the infinite stiffness, though I worry about the fact that friction is a result of interacting electron shells, so trying to hold on to an XCM sword would be... tricky, as would a candy sword.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 19, 2016, 02:30:42 pm
Then again, that would explain a lot about levers...
Post by: Max™ on June 19, 2016, 04:55:32 pm
Post by: peasant cretin on June 19, 2016, 06:20:01 pm
Post by: Putnam on June 19, 2016, 06:32:07 pm
The catch here is that while it's interesting, and generally a good idea, to ground fantasy-realm things in real-world physics or theoretical physics, we can (and often should) fudge physics when it's required to make the overall experience better. Otherwise we'll expect things like dwarves making adamantine-based communications systems, if you have stuff like infinite speed of sound. :V
Then again, that would explain a lot about levers...
Adamantine could merely have a bulk modulus K in the range of 10,000,000,000,000 pascals<K<8,987,551,787,368,176,400 pascals rather than infinite, which would give it a speed of sound v in the range of 10,000,000 m/s<v<c. One may notice that this is a monstrously huge range, but such is the nature of weirdass materials.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 19, 2016, 06:41:41 pm
"You drop the slade warhammer.
The falling slade warhammer strikes the planet in the crust and the injured part is crushed!"
Post by: Max™ on June 19, 2016, 07:29:41 pm
Post by: Putnam on June 19, 2016, 09:22:43 pm
Post by: WakeMeUp on June 20, 2016, 02:41:50 am
Also: With the new economy will the things we produce actually matter, like they are in the world and influence it? If we produce 100 swords, will the dwarven army use them? If we produce a lot of food, will the population of other settlements grow quicker? If we produce a lot of books will they be in the world?
Same thing with the adv mod - if I rob a caravan, will its owner lose his investment and be poorer? If I attack food caravans heading for a fortress, will it starve?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 20, 2016, 03:46:58 am
When are we going to get embark scenarios? Right now every fortress we can make is very generic, I want to be able to create a mining colony or a prison, where I can be locked if I commit a crime. It would be even cooler than The Escapists.So far the plan seems something like this (prone to change, crazy whims and other such happenings).
Also: With the new economy will the things we produce actually matter, like they are in the world and influence it? If we produce 100 swords, will the dwarven army use them? If we produce a lot of food, will the population of other settlements grow quicker? If we produce a lot of books will they be in the world?
Same thing with the adv mod - if I rob a caravan, will its owner lose his investment and be poorer? If I attack food caravans heading for a fortress, will it starve?
1) 64 bit test release
(Development)
2) Artifacts release 1 (npc artifacts)
(Bug fixes, development)
3) Artifacts release 2 (magic, myths)
(Bug fixes, development)
4) Embark Scenarios (politics and stuff)
(Bug fixes, development)
5) Boats (moving fortress parts)
(Bug fixes, development)
6) Economy (starving peasants)
Plus whatever else happens in between. A year development for each plus a few months of bug fixing and mini-features? Probably something like that anyway. Expect scenarios, boats and economies to be split into multiple parts.
Taverns part two in there somewhere? Sudden crisis as Toady realises politics requires an econony but an economy requires politics? Who knows! :)
Post by: Dirst on June 20, 2016, 06:59:34 am
Post by: LordBaal on June 20, 2016, 07:21:40 am
That could be really fun. Specially now if you can retire/return fortresses and claim sites as an adventurer. You could start a coastal fortress, build a magnificent ship(or several), save the fortress, go as an adventurer and become a captain of the ship (or admiral of the fleet), set sail to a new continent, reclaim a site there, bring settlers, retire your adventurer wether a rich man in his country or as governor of the new site, take the site in fortress mode and build a a flourishing colony there, perhaps cultivate previously undiscovered crops, exploit mineral richness or whatever.
Rinse and repeat and you can recreate the United Dwarfdom or basically any European empire and other fantasy universes (Warhammer comes to mind to an extent).
Post by: Dirst on June 20, 2016, 07:28:42 am
At least one early design will involve putting a large boat in a cistern above the entrance, and dropping it on invaders.
Post by: Cormack on June 20, 2016, 07:32:08 am
When are we going to get embark scenarios? Right now every fortress we can make is very generic, I want to be able to create a mining colony or a prison, where I can be locked if I commit a crime. It would be even cooler than The Escapists.So far the plan seems something like this (prone to change, crazy whims and other such happenings).
Also: With the new economy will the things we produce actually matter, like they are in the world and influence it? If we produce 100 swords, will the dwarven army use them? If we produce a lot of food, will the population of other settlements grow quicker? If we produce a lot of books will they be in the world?
Same thing with the adv mod - if I rob a caravan, will its owner lose his investment and be poorer? If I attack food caravans heading for a fortress, will it starve?
1) 64 bit test release
(Development)
2) Artifacts release 1 (npc artifacts)
(Bug fixes, development)
3) Artifacts release 2 (magic, myths)
(Bug fixes, development)
4) Embark Scenarios (politics and stuff)
(Bug fixes, development)
5) Boats (moving fortress parts)
(Bug fixes, development)
6) Economy (starving peasants)
Plus whatever else happens in between. A year development for each plus a few months of bug fixing and mini-features? Probably something like that anyway. Expect scenarios, boats and economies to be split into multiple parts.
Taverns part two in there somewhere? Sudden crisis as Toady realises politics requires an econony but an economy requires politics? Who knows! :)
What's a fortress moving part? Like Transformers or something?
Post by: Cormack on June 20, 2016, 07:41:05 am
Post by: LordBaal on June 20, 2016, 08:14:05 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 20, 2016, 08:17:33 am
Quote
What's a fortress moving part? Like Transformers or something?Paraphrasing dwarfmoot (although it's in the development notes somewhere), boats are basically moving sections of map, which means introducing boats will enable bits of fortress to move from one place to another. Which means...I don't know. Crushing Elven merchants with moving walls? Dropping large blocks on approaching armies and having the blocks reset back to original position? Building real stone/cage traps? Dramatically having the front of the mountain open before flooding the world with magma? All sorts of things, I guess.
Post by: Max™ on June 20, 2016, 09:17:15 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 20, 2016, 10:38:32 am
Wonder if Toady has ever thought about having cannons at least in naval warfare.
This would be fun. Ideally this needs further (hopefully raw-based) fleshing out of siege engines, so that cannons can be given relevant advantages and disadvantages.
Alternatively, we could at least have rocketry, basic incendiaries, etc. After all, while we're assumed to not allow going too modern, gunpowder is fucking old. Cannons, hand cannons, and to some extent matchlocks are also medieval as fuck. Just need to remember that "bulletproof" is a term that has its origins in the same era. o3o
Though if we added personal firearms, at a bare minimum we'd need to unfuck reload times for ranged weapons all being the same value, so we can have bows capable of a faster rate of fire.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 20, 2016, 10:49:44 am
People elevators would be tricky because that doesn't play nice with path finding (for the same reason using mine carts for transportation doesn't work without some very convoluted solutions).
Opening the mountain to let magma out, as well as crushing stuff, sounds like the drawbridges already existing, which might mean they could get re-implemented using the new framework. There's also been talk about more complex and "realistic" multi tile traps (as well as less over powered cage traps).
The embark wagon (as well as merchant wagons) has also been mentioned as being due for re-implementation, but whether that would be as a mechanic thingie or in conjunction with introduction of multi tile creatures remains to be seen (with a leaning towards the creature implementation).
Post by: LordBaal on June 20, 2016, 11:56:35 am
Alternatively, we could at least have rocketry, basic incendiaries, etc. After all, while we're assumed to not allow going too modern, gunpowder is fucking old. Cannons, hand cannons, and to some extent matchlocks are also medieval as fuck. Just need to remember that "bulletproof" is a term that has its origins in the same era.Well, regarding naval warfare wikipedia tell us that: From the late Middle Ages onwards, warships began to carry cannon of various calibres. The Battle of Arnemuiden, fought between England and France in 1338 at the start of the Hundred Years' War, was the first recorded European naval battle using artillery.
As for cannons in general: First invented in China, cannons were among the earliest forms of gunpowder artillery, and over time replaced siege engines—among other forms of ageing weaponry—on the battlefield. In the Middle East, the first use of the hand cannon is argued to be during the 1260 Battle of Ain Jalut between the Mamluks and Mongols. The first cannon in Europe were in use in Iberia by the mid-13th century. It was during this period, the Middle Ages, that cannon became standardized, and more effective in both the anti-infantry and siege roles.
However Toady, I recall, stated he doesn't like the idea of making firearms default into the game (obviously the game it's always open to mod them in). However I feel that cannons mounted on ships could be an exception. However purely mechanical artillery could do the trick on ships too.
Although I might be getting a little ahead of everything, at first we need at least a raft to move on the surface of a river or lake.
...as sliding roofs and other stranger stuff.Well, how else is going to McXavier going to take out the dwarfjet out from the beneath the dwarfball court?
Post by: Repseki on June 20, 2016, 12:50:09 pm
Toady means to allow grain/freight elevators and boats and such, all we hear is "crush shit with huge metal walls" it seems.
Isn't that kinda the standard for most new features? How can we use this to crush shit.
I'm looking forward to hearing how much we will really be able to do with it. Kinda hoping there will be some underwater building applications, instead of having to drain the ocean. Even just dropping a "box" of dwarves to the bottom of the ocean without flattening them would be pretty cool.
Post by: LordBaal on June 20, 2016, 01:08:19 pm
Post by: Dirst on June 20, 2016, 01:13:23 pm
It's almost like you're trying to put Chief Medical Dwarves out of work ;)Toady means to allow grain/freight elevators and boats and such, all we hear is "crush shit with huge metal walls" it seems.
Isn't that kinda the standard for most new features? How can we use this to crush shit.
I'm looking forward to hearing how much we will really be able to do with it. Kinda hoping there will be some underwater building applications, instead of having to drain the ocean. Even just dropping a "box" of dwarves to the bottom of the ocean without flattening them would be pretty cool.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 20, 2016, 01:26:02 pm
I'm looking forward to hearing how much we will really be able to do with it. Kinda hoping there will be some underwater building applications, instead of having to drain the ocean. Even just dropping a "box" of dwarves to the bottom of the ocean without flattening them would be pretty cool.
You mean at long last, we could pull off a Journey to the Center of the Earth without cave-in logic ruining it?
Post by: stinkasectomy on June 20, 2016, 09:52:38 pm
will we see swords breaking into two separate pieces (blade/hilt etc), or gauntlets lose a finger, or chain mail lose some links? lots of fantasy about reforging broken swords, after all. items losing pieces would likely cause item bloat in many cases, and a pretty major rework even if it didnt bloat (so not any time soon i guess).
i would love to see the a quest to reforge the legendary hammer, "roughlung", a cat soap warhammer, broken when it struck the legendary...... well, pretty much anything really
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 20, 2016, 10:36:52 pm
with the new system of weapon and armour damage, do you intend to implement a way or repairing damage? if repairing is implemented, will it require more resources (some more bronze to repair a damaged bronze item etc). does (should?) the damage apply to artifacts? i like the idea of repairing any of my military's named items, even if they aren't artifacts.Strider dramatically pulls up leggings, "These are the pig-tail socks that were broken in a time before time, and have now been sewn anew."
will we see swords breaking into two separate pieces (blade/hilt etc), or gauntlets lose a finger, or chain mail lose some links? lots of fantasy about reforging broken swords, after all. items losing pieces would likely cause item bloat in many cases, and a pretty major rework even if it didnt bloat (so not any time soon i guess).
i would love to see the a quest to reforge the legendary hammer, "roughlung", a cat soap warhammer, broken when it struck the legendary...... well, pretty much anything really
Awed silence. Muffled laughter from the back of the room...
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 20, 2016, 10:51:17 pm
with the new system of weapon and armour damage, do you intend to implement a way or repairing damage? if repairing is implemented, will it require more resources (some more bronze to repair a damaged bronze item etc). does (should?) the damage apply to artifacts? i like the idea of repairing any of my military's named items, even if they aren't artifacts.
Way ahead of you guys, I already added some repair reactions to Adventurecraft.
Post by: DeKaFu on June 21, 2016, 08:30:01 am
To be honest, it was my most anticipated feature for the entire tavern arc. It's always been a bit crazy to me that the game simulates 40 different species of grass but only three types of cooked food. :P
Post by: Cormack on June 21, 2016, 08:36:57 am
Post by: Ekaton on June 21, 2016, 10:45:43 am
Are we going to be able to build and manage our own tavern in adv mode anytime soon? To be honest I've been waiting for this for years now and I feel that there is little missing - we can now build in adv mode and claim places for ourselves, but can't designate areas as taverns, brew drinks, prepare meals, serve customers or hire waitresses or entartainers. Please Toady, I've been waiting for years now.
Taverns won't really work without economy. Quote from the "development" page:
"Without more economic activity, dealing with fortress mode tavern revenue and the supply of adventure mode taverns isn't the focus at this point."
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 21, 2016, 10:57:00 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 21, 2016, 10:59:36 am
Are we going to be able to build and manage our own tavern in adv mode anytime soon? To be honest I've been waiting for this for years now and I feel that there is little missing - we can now build in adv mode and claim places for ourselves, but can't designate areas as taverns, brew drinks, prepare meals, serve customers or hire waitresses or entartainers. Please Toady, I've been waiting for years now.
You can designate tavern zones, and assign companions to them. However, as far as I've seen no one ever visits those places. And I've yet to determine whether an NPC assigned there will serve drinks or not. At a bare minimum, they don't seem to change unit type to tavern keeper, though since I don't think you can recruit tavern keepers, that might be a good thing.
Post by: Dirst on June 21, 2016, 11:11:42 am
At a bare minimum, they don't seem to change unit type to tavern keeper, though since I don't think you can recruit tavern keepers, that might be a good thing."Ick... what is this?"
"Dwarven wine!"
"No it's not, and I don't see any plump helmets back there."
"What's a plump helmet? I've been squeezing some dwarves who came to the inn last week."
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 21, 2016, 12:31:03 pm
"Ick... what is this?"
"Dwarven wine!"
"No it's not, and I don't see any plump helmets back there."
"What's a plump helmet? I've been squeezing some dwarves who came to the inn last week."
Technically I meant to avoid any problems that "I'm retroactively unrecruitable" might cause, but that answer works too. :V
Post by: RoaryStar on June 21, 2016, 12:50:06 pm
any plan to reorganize stragglers job interfaces (like jewlery workshopt) to the new system?
Questions should be limegreen.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 21, 2016, 04:20:07 pm
Toady already said this is an unfinished feature that won't do anything right now in last month's future of the fortress reply.Are we going to be able to build and manage our own tavern in adv mode anytime soon? To be honest I've been waiting for this for years now and I feel that there is little missing - we can now build in adv mode and claim places for ourselves, but can't designate areas as taverns, brew drinks, prepare meals, serve customers or hire waitresses or entartainers. Please Toady, I've been waiting for years now.
You can designate tavern zones, and assign companions to them. However, as far as I've seen no one ever visits those places. And I've yet to determine whether an NPC assigned there will serve drinks or not. At a bare minimum, they don't seem to change unit type to tavern keeper, though since I don't think you can recruit tavern keepers, that might be a good thing.
Post by: LordBaal on June 21, 2016, 07:58:33 pm
Post by: Dame de la Licorne on June 21, 2016, 08:03:49 pm
Back in the 2D days, we had to build a road for wagons to get to the depot, and smooth floors if the depot was underground. Are there any plans to reinstate that requirement (or something similar/equivalent)? I always found it added a nice bit of in-game realism, that this (not-so-)distant outpost needed to connect with whatever roads were in the vicinity before getting the massive caravans and more efficient communications with its home base. And given that the near-future plans include interactions with nearby settlements, this seemed like an appropriate time to bring it up.
-Dame de la Licorne
Post by: Rinin_Rus on June 22, 2016, 03:46:49 am
Random_Dragon, thanks for reminding about greenification
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 22, 2016, 03:51:06 am
New manager system is very usefull feature, but is it any plans to add [d]etails feature for bags/barrel related jobs, since now "mill 10 rye flower" or "brew 10 River Spirits" and all other jobs (as I see with more than 1 reagent) cannot be automated without annoying tricks.
Greenify the question so senpai will notice you. o3o
Post by: Colev0 on June 23, 2016, 02:35:04 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 23, 2016, 06:26:31 am
Will animal people be made more viable anytime soon? There's been a couple of quirks surrounding them for quite awhile in both modes of play.
How exactly do you want this answered apart from 'what quirks, is there a bug report?' before waiting a month for the next Future of the Fortress?
Post by: falcc on June 23, 2016, 11:13:44 am
Since kobolds, or at least kobold sites, are getting an update soon will there be any expansions to poisoning weapons or world gen traps to make them comparable in challenge to the other major game races?
Since they're smaller than goblins, occur in lower numbers than goblins, and don't even have armor it seems like the environment will have to be more difficult to navigate, at least until the mechanics are in for tossing scorpions at people or poisoned nets or whatever else has been predicted for them.
Do you have any plans for felled trees or piles of rocks blocking paths for multi-tile things with wheels like wagons or siege engines? Obviously tiles are very fluid when it comes to moving over furniture but it seems like there'd be something missing from the arrival of goblin siege engines if big piles of logs in their path don't need to be cleared out, allowing the dwarves more time to flee or maneuver.
Are elvish abilities (growing weapons, communing with animals) going to become components of the nature sphere under the myth generator, or remain abstracted for the time being? There was a power goal about talking to rabbits and leading them on a revolt, will that make its way in there? Are those terrible wooden armors going to see some kind of magical boost to put them more on par with other races, whether its in regards to strength or the new armor damage system?
Will/do semi-artifacts gradually wear out and is there going to be a way to get armor to semi-artifact status in adventure mode if you're really desperate for that adamantine helm to be passed down to your grandchildren once they're implemented?
Post by: Colev0 on June 23, 2016, 11:25:33 am
Will animal people be made more viable anytime soon? There's been a couple of quirks surrounding them for quite awhile in both modes of play.
How exactly do you want this answered apart from 'what quirks, is there a bug report?' before waiting a month for the next Future of the Fortress?
There're a couple of bug reports; I just wanted to know if there was a plan to address them before the next update or two. Looks like it's too early to ask, though. My bad.
Post by: Dirst on June 23, 2016, 11:27:24 am
Are elvish abilities (growing weapons, communing with animals) going to become components of the nature sphere under the myth generator, or remain abstracted for the time being? There was a power goal about talking to rabbits and leading them on a revolt, will that make its way in there? Are those terrible wooden armors going to see some kind of magical boost to put them more on par with other races, whether its in regards to strength or the new armor damage system?"There you go, Warrior. Your oaken breastplate has been regrown to be good as new!"
"So, just as crappy as ever? Gee, thanks."
Post by: Rose on June 23, 2016, 11:49:01 am
Post by: PTTG?? on June 23, 2016, 12:07:53 pm
Will Threetoe write any more stories any time soon?Yeah, I've been wondering that.
Post by: falcc on June 23, 2016, 12:59:58 pm
Are elvish abilities (growing weapons, communing with animals) going to become components of the nature sphere under the myth generator, or remain abstracted for the time being? There was a power goal about talking to rabbits and leading them on a revolt, will that make its way in there? Are those terrible wooden armors going to see some kind of magical boost to put them more on par with other races, whether its in regards to strength or the new armor damage system?"There you go, Warrior. Your oaken breastplate has been regrown to be good as new!"
"So, just as crappy as ever? Gee, thanks."
Worthless armor lasting a long time is important when you're immortal and don't value commerce.
Post by: Chase on June 23, 2016, 01:39:13 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 23, 2016, 04:15:34 pm
I'm sure there's nothing wrong with asking, but have you checked out the bug tracker recently? There's hundreds and hundreds of issues. Some of them are bugs, some of them are unfinished features. Unless you say specifically what you want to know, you almost certainly won't get the answer you want.Will animal people be made more viable anytime soon? There's been a couple of quirks surrounding them for quite awhile in both modes of play.
How exactly do you want this answered apart from 'what quirks, is there a bug report?' before waiting a month for the next Future of the Fortress?
There're a couple of bug reports; I just wanted to know if there was a plan to address them before the next update or two. Looks like it's too early to ask, though. My bad.
You want to know "When will animal men be more viable and less quirky?". Define viable. Define quirk. What do you want to do with an animal man? Are you aware of the massive updates animal men got in this cycle making them hundreds of times more "viable" than previously?
Your question is as vague as "Hey, will you fix the issue with the dwarves some time?". Everything in the game could do with being less "quirky".
It's good to ask questions. But be more specific if you want actual information. DF is a massive game with a huge long-term development plan and nobody can read your mind to guess what you're asking.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on June 23, 2016, 04:40:23 pm
Will version .5 be considered Beta?No because Beta testing is when the product is nearly finished and is sent out to be tested by other people. Nothing is changing at version 0.50 that would affect that. Depending on your interpretation Dwarf Fortress has either always been in Beta testing, or will never be Beta tested.
Post by: Inarius on June 24, 2016, 01:54:20 am
Will Threetoe write any more stories any time soon?
More generally, I'm curious about team working, Toady is quite discreet about the role played by his brother in the game. I'm sure they have found something quite unique ; i'm not sure there are other example of a game made by two brothers (and a cat) !
Toady, do you mind talking a bit more about how do your brother and you work, everyday ? Does he bring the idea and you the code ? Does he help you on debugging, or code himself, test the game ?
Post by: Colev0 on June 24, 2016, 01:58:50 am
Quote
I'm sure there's nothing wrong with asking, but have you checked out the bug tracker recently? There's hundreds and hundreds of issues. Some of them are bugs, some of them are unfinished features. Unless you say specifically what you want to know, you almost certainly won't get the answer you want.
You want to know "When will animal men be more viable and less quirky?". Define viable. Define quirk. What do you want to do with an animal man? Are you aware of the massive updates animal men got in this cycle making them hundreds of times more "viable" than previously?
Your question is as vague as "Hey, will you fix the issue with the dwarves some time?". Everything in the game could do with being less "quirky".
It's good to ask questions. But be more specific if you want actual information. DF is a massive game with a huge long-term development plan and nobody can read your mind to guess what you're asking.
I'm not sure I deserved a belittling lecture over a mere misunderstanding, but you've got a point. Here's something less vague, then:
Are there plans to fix issue #0009588 on the Bay12 bug tracker anytime soon? The issue makes animal people undesirable as fortress residents and adventure mode companions because it more than halves their walking speed when they aren't hauling/carrying something in their hands. I'd really like to use animal people as residents in a fortress since it makes the fort's population more varied, but this issue makes it difficult for them to do several jobs efficiently, and thus discourages their use.
Post by: MrWiggles on June 24, 2016, 05:15:30 am
Fantastic to see you on the forum! I hope you stick around, and join the community.
I'm not sure I deserved a belittling lecture over a mere misunderstanding, but you've got a point. Here's something less vague, then:
Are there plans to fix issue #0009588 on the Bay12 bug tracker anytime soon? The issue makes animal people undesirable as fortress residents and adventure mode companions because it more than halves their walking speed when they aren't hauling/carrying something in their hands. I'd really like to use animal people as residents in a fortress since it makes the fort's population more varied, but this issue makes it difficult for them to do several jobs efficiently, and thus discourages their use.
So question likes these, when asking about Blah, or X, in the future, is "Sounds good, no time line." Its doubtful there are heinous bugs that ToadyOne and ThreeToe are like, "We could fix that, but nah." Considering this seems like being told no twice in the row on your question, I really do hope you stick around. ToadyOne has over the years, kinda set up a pattern to a certain category of questions. This bug we'll get looked at again, when they become relevant to development. Considering the last release, ToadyOne stated they were gonna start to switch DF over to 64bit, its probably very unlikely that your personal favorite bug is gonna get quashed in the time frame of "soon", unless it exist because of memory registry issues, which, you know, it may.
Post by: Colev0 on June 24, 2016, 02:00:15 pm
Fantastic to see you on the forum! I hope you stick around, and join the community.
So question likes these, when asking about Blah, or X, in the future, is "Sounds good, no time line." Its doubtful there are heinous bugs that ToadyOne and ThreeToe are like, "We could fix that, but nah." Considering this seems like being told no twice in the row on your question, I really do hope you stick around. ToadyOne has over the years, kinda set up a pattern to a certain category of questions. This bug we'll get looked at again, when they become relevant to development. Considering the last release, ToadyOne stated they were gonna start to switch DF over to 64bit, its probably very unlikely that your personal favorite bug is gonna get quashed in the time frame of "soon", unless it exist because of memory registry issues, which, you know, it may.
Ah, well, I suppose I should've expected that. Regardless, thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome.
Post by: Urist McWoodBurner on June 27, 2016, 01:01:39 pm
Will you be implementing some sort of port that can be built in fortress mode? That would make ocean embark more interesting and also being able to build ships/wagons to send to trade with other cities? I think that would add awesome depth once the economy is set up. Sending dwarf out to
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 27, 2016, 02:21:56 pm
One the one hand, using a dry dock to build a boat is a great usage of dwarven engineering, but on the other hand it doesn't match the boat building technology of the DF timeline. I'd go for the dry dock anyway, though, as building the boat on land and slide it into the water is likely to be tricky.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 27, 2016, 02:26:05 pm
One the one hand, using a dry dock to build a boat is a great usage of dwarven engineering, but on the other hand it doesn't match the boat building technology of the DF timeline.
What, no viking longboats? :V
Post by: CLA on June 27, 2016, 04:41:22 pm
I have a feeling that as soon as DF has viking longboats, we will see an entire development cycle dedicated to improve farming.One the one hand, using a dry dock to build a boat is a great usage of dwarven engineering, but on the other hand it doesn't match the boat building technology of the DF timeline.
What, no viking longboats? :V
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 27, 2016, 04:55:19 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 28, 2016, 01:57:47 am
I fail to see any connection between longboats and dry docks, however, but you can of course build a longboat in a dry dock, even though they were built light enough to be possible to haul past rapids, and so didn't require much in the way of infrastructure to get into the water.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2016, 02:09:18 am
Longboats are within the DF time line, but Vikings are not within the DF universes...It's not that big of a jump in lore to imagine coastal raiders in longboats once boats and 'normal' fantasy pirates are implemented.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 28, 2016, 02:12:00 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2016, 02:17:37 am
True. Does seem like dry docks would require the ability to transport a boat over land to some degree, something longboats will also require. In game terms, it's reasonable to assume that both mechanics, if they become accessible in fortress mode, will be easier to use with smaller boats.When you travel over dry land, you just pack up your boat and throw it on the wagon. Problem?
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 28, 2016, 02:38:00 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2016, 02:49:10 am
And what if your boat IS the wagon?A new Hollywood blockbuster in the making. Zombie Sperm Whale vs Wagon.
Post by: Bumber on June 28, 2016, 03:35:51 am
And what if your boat IS the wagon?(http://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1403828805i/10150645.jpg)
Post by: Putnam on June 28, 2016, 03:38:49 am
i live on that river and lemme tell you it looks rather crossable that way
i can see where one would make the mistake
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 28, 2016, 07:11:54 am
Given the Dwarfmoot talked about boat draft, you'd need to use piers to get out to a sufficient depth for the boats to float free. You can currently build floors/piers without a problem, but last time I tried to build a wave breaker it failed as waves just continued through without being affected.
One the one hand, using a dry dock to build a boat is a great usage of dwarven engineering, but on the other hand it doesn't match the boat building technology of the DF timeline. I'd go for the dry dock anyway, though, as building the boat on land and slide it into the water is likely to be tricky.
I already made a suggestion thread with track driven boats from the land if its at all relevant to the discussion or the dwarfmoot question.
Boat Mechanics/Or just 'mounted' mechanics in general (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158327.msg7012078#msg7012078)
Besides from that...
And what if your boat IS the wagon?A new Hollywood blockbuster in the making. Zombie Sperm Whale vs Wagon.
Battlecart - A thrilling summer blockbuster in which dwarven and elven naval fleets must unite to defeat a technologically advanced race of gecko men to stop a oncoming army. After a narrow defeat in which both fleets are lost, the crew are marooned upon the shore and must petition the fortress inhabitants to take the battle back to the water using the starting wagon, that has been gathering dust defunct for decades.
Post by: Urist McGoombaBrother on June 28, 2016, 09:41:16 am
I made this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158090.0) for more detailled information, what I mean. Not sure, if I shall make an entry at the mantis bug tracker for this or whether those are features for the suggestion forum.
Post by: Dirst on June 28, 2016, 09:50:57 am
And what if your boat IS the wagon?Sigh, it's like you've never been in a caravan. Obviously you pack a wagon and a couple puller animals in the boat, then throw the boat in the wagon when necessary.
Actually, if the game can handle portaging a longboat it should also be able to handle a battering ram, a which would be awesome.
"Watch those corners!"
Post by: pikachu17 on June 28, 2016, 10:33:37 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 28, 2016, 10:49:59 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 28, 2016, 11:00:13 am
will eventually(way WAY back if ever, probably) invaders be able to repurpose your fort to live there, while you are still there? like for instance if your dwarves are stuck underground, the goblins could make a fort on the surface.
Humans already build keeps directly over conquered elven forest retreats.
And im sure that goblins already do also build trenches and outdoor fortifications on conquered sites too.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 28, 2016, 12:25:39 pm
And what if your boat IS the wagon?(http://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1403828805i/10150645.jpg)
When in doubt, FORD IT.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2016, 05:25:56 pm
By "editors for fixed worlds" is that what you were talking about at Dwarfmoot with people being able to create their own worlds and sites and make Moria replicas, etc?
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on June 28, 2016, 05:58:00 pm
Quote from: Updated development page
- Hostility settings: No death or violence to regular settings to bleak and horrifying
What would "bleak and horrifying" entail? Would this include some of the things that have traditionally been avoided in Dwarf Fortress for various reasons, such as sex and (lack of) consent and whatnot? (There were, I think, some other similar things that I don't remember off the top of my head.)
Although such things can indeed evoke strong emotions, and not always positive, they also can be important components of the more bleak types of stories, sometimes; and Dwarf Fortress does of course aim to be a generator of many different kinds of stories. I understand many people do not want these sorts of things in their worlds/play, but that's alright so long as it's a setting (with probably the default set to the regular settings as we know them now or some such), right? Perhaps?
(Actually now that I read it again it says "hostility settings", so perhaps this really is just about the level of violence, and not other things about how friendly versus horrible things get. In that case, my question stands but without the reference to the dev page.)
Oh, and at the other side of the spectrum, is "No death [...]" to be taken literally? Will there be no death at all in this setting (and what would that mean for the demographics and such of the worlds)? Or just no death due to fights and wars and the like?
Post by: Max™ on June 28, 2016, 06:35:50 pm
Human conquered forest retreats end up with temples too.will eventually(way WAY back if ever, probably) invaders be able to repurpose your fort to live there, while you are still there? like for instance if your dwarves are stuck underground, the goblins could make a fort on the surface.
Humans already build keeps directly over conquered elven forest retreats.
And im sure that goblins already do also build trenches and outdoor fortifications on conquered sites too.
Post by: monk12 on June 28, 2016, 07:39:46 pm
Post by: thvaz on June 28, 2016, 07:57:01 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 28, 2016, 08:18:33 pm
Post by: DG on June 29, 2016, 12:34:55 am
Quote
- Ability to send a squad off the map to fetch a stolen artifact
That sounds like the first step to something huge.
Post by: Inarius on June 29, 2016, 01:50:59 am
It seems that, in the development page, you want to give a very important role to artifact(s) in the next version(s). For now, artifacts are numerous in Fortress mode, meaning that, if other fortresses and cities produce as many artifacts as us, there will be a LOT of artifacts all over the world. Does this mean less moods and artifacts in the future or is this intended ?
Post by: Thundercraft on June 29, 2016, 02:48:20 am
...meaning that, if other fortresses and cities produce as many artifacts as us, there will be a LOT of artifacts all over the world. Does this mean less moods and artifacts in the future or is this intended ?
I suspect artifacts are meant to be somewhat common. However, I'd imagine that when artifacts get further developed to where intelligent artifacts exist and some have amazing magical or supernatural properties, that those kinds would be uncommon. At least, I would hope that most artifacts would be mediocre or rather boring. Though, wasn't there talk of some myth adjustment to control how common fantastical and supernatural stuff is?
Whatever the case, I hope moods do not become rare. They can be Fun (or just fun).
Post by: Inarius on June 29, 2016, 03:33:04 am
I imagine that attraction for armies and thieves will be proportionnal to the value of the artifact, and not to the power or sophistication of it...(meaning that your bland adamantine sword with wooden decoration will be less attractive than the golden jeweled powerless chest...)
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 29, 2016, 05:25:37 am
Quote from: Updated development page
- Hostility settings: No death or violence to regular settings to bleak and horrifying
What would "bleak and horrifying" entail? Would this include some of the things that have traditionally been avoided in Dwarf Fortress for various reasons, such as sex and (lack of) consent and whatnot? (There were, I think, some other similar things that I don't remember off the top of my head.)
Although such things can indeed evoke strong emotions, and not always positive, they also can be important components of the more bleak types of stories, sometimes; and Dwarf Fortress does of course aim to be a generator of many different kinds of stories. I understand many people do not want these sorts of things in their worlds/play, but that's alright so long as it's a setting (with probably the default set to the regular settings as we know them now or some such), right? Perhaps?
(Actually now that I read it again it says "hostility settings", so perhaps this really is just about the level of violence, and not other things about how friendly versus horrible things get. In that case, my question stands but without the reference to the dev page.)
Literally just the world of Beserk. Go mod in a claymore, roll a human character with one eye and you're all set to go.
Smear blood eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverywheeere
Post by: thvaz on June 29, 2016, 06:12:13 am
Post by: Thundercraft on June 29, 2016, 07:08:11 am
Will we be able to put quests to retrieve stolen artifacts on our fortresses? So instead of risking our dwarves in the mission, outsiders would do it.
I honestly like this idea. However, I see a potential problem: To hire mercenaries or offer a reward for its return, wouldn't the reward need to be about equal to the value of the artifact. Depending on the artifact, that could be really big money.
I mean, if the reward was only a fraction of the artifact's value, then it seems likely that one of two scenarios would happen:
(1) Nobody takes up the offer as the reward does not justify the risks. You'd likely need a small army to retrieve it from the kobolds or goblins. Unless the mercs are really, really good at sneaking in, that is.
(2) Mercs come to take the job. But, secretly, they only came to learn who stole it and where it went. (And, perhaps, to demand partial payment up front.) They go and retrieve it. However, rather than return it to the dwarves, they sell it to a human merchant or noble or something because they would pay handsomely for it. That, or they might just keep it for themselves, such as if it was an artifact weapon.
Then again, perhaps gaining a positive reputation with the dwarves could be considered part of the reward? That, and being able to tell stories about it, have your names engraved in dwarven halls and linked in legends to the artifact itself. Heck, such might be worth giving them full dwarven citizenship.
Also, deceiving the dwarves in taking the job but then selling it to the highest bidder should have consequences. Maybe they'd hire more mercs to kill the deceitful mercs who sold it instead of fulfilling the job? Maybe those mercs would find themselves enemies of your entire dwarf civ?
Or, maybe players should check the reputation of would-be job takers before giving them the quest? Maybe giving the quest to other dwarves would make it less likely that they would sell it or keep it?
Post by: thvaz on June 29, 2016, 07:29:25 am
I honestly like this idea. However, I see a potential problem: To hire mercenaries or offer a reward for its return, wouldn't the reward need to be about equal to the value of the artifact. Depending on the artifact, that could be really big money.
I mean, if the reward was only a fraction of the artifact's value, then it seems likely that one of two scenarios would happen:
(1) Nobody takes up the offer as the reward does not justify the risks. You'd likely need a small army to retrieve it from the kobolds or goblins. Unless the mercs are really, really good at sneaking in, that is.
(2) Mercs come to take the job. But, secretly, they only came to learn who stole it and where it went. (And, perhaps, to demand partial payment up front.) They go and retrieve it. However, rather than return it to the dwarves, they sell it to a human merchant or noble or something because they would pay handsomely for it. That, or they might just keep it for themselves, such as if it was an artifact weapon.
Then again, perhaps gaining a positive reputation with the dwarves could be considered part of the reward? That, and being able to tell stories about it, have your names engraved in dwarven halls and linked in legends to the artifact itself. Heck, such might be worth giving them full dwarven citizenship.
Also, deceiving the dwarves in taking the job but then selling it to the highest bidder should have consequences. Maybe they'd hire more mercs to kill the deceitful mercs who sold it instead of fulfilling the job? Maybe those mercs would find themselves enemies of your entire dwarf civ? Or, maybe players should check the reputation of would-be job takers before giving them the quest?
Sure, but it was a problem that would occur elsewhere too, as the dev page says there will be quests for adventurers. My question is if we could offer the quests.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 29, 2016, 07:50:10 am
So much cool stuff, but:Quote
- Ability to send a squad off the map to fetch a stolen artifact
That sounds like the first step to something huge.
There was a little talk in the modding section of the forum somewhere of stashing units inside the same space where migrants emerge from off the map as a workaround for taking a creature out of view for a interaction before 'resummoning' it without having to create a whole new creature or a very close copy.
Theoretically you could assort planar travel (or at-least bringing things into your own plane aka embark) by sorting and dividing these subspace places into their own self contained things (such as a migrant subspace/invasion subspace/caravan subspace) rather than having it crammed all into the same medium which will affect CPU from multiple events triggering at once and presumably offer some room to multithread the functions individually within those to better manage it.
So sending out your artifact retrieval guys would be a case of ordering them to enter a end-zone, get counted up and ID read before being transferred to wherever else. Just in the same way a caravan (if we got to the point of realistic caravan entities moving around) would be read before entering your tile and read leaving it to account for stock etc. (if it does manage to leave at all)
Post by: Thundercraft on June 29, 2016, 08:18:32 am
Sure, but it was a problem that would occur elsewhere too, as the dev page says there will be quests for adventurers. My question is if we could offer the quests.
Fair enough. It really is a good question to ask.
Though, I question whether other types of quests could have the potential problems I mentioned. Paying mercs to, say, protect visiting trade caravans for a season, slay a megabeast or other dangerous creature, or retrieve a kidnapped child probably would not involve a risk of them double-crossing you. (A child isn't worth much on the open market, unlike an artifact. And it seems unlikely that a Titan or such could bribe the mercs.)
Just saying: It seems unlikely that most quests would cost as much as retrieving an artifact - that is, with a reasonable expectation that it is likely to be fulfilled.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 29, 2016, 08:27:19 am
literally anything could happen.
> Wild animal attacks - Hunters can't walk two steps without being mauled to death
> Running into armies stationed in a area
> Transforming into were-creatures and forgetting the task entirely before being struck down
> Old age
> Hailstorm of fluffy wamblers (mods, nobody expects mods)
> Running into a player fortress full of traps
> Running into a NPC fortress full of traps
> Being killed by a adventurer/other mercs hired as guards (as to mean abstractly you've retired your fort but they still enlisted mercs to retrieve it, labelling themselves potentially as non-intentional villians to the quest givers, in which your hero could hunt down and kill)
> Via poor pathfinding, falling into a pit and dying, along with the corpses of 100's of other people meeting the same fate because a road pathed over a cliff and the AI just being silly.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 29, 2016, 08:34:47 am
Post by: LordBaal on June 29, 2016, 08:46:55 am
For all that to work well we'll need the coinage based economy to make a comeback. Although it tempting to pay the adventurous heroes with a bunch of chickens. :PWill we be able to put quests to retrieve stolen artifacts on our fortresses? So instead of risking our dwarves in the mission, outsiders would do it.
I honestly like this idea. However, I see a potential problem: To hire mercenaries or offer a reward for its return, wouldn't the reward need to be about equal to the value of the artifact. Depending on the artifact, that could be really big money.
I mean, if the reward was only a fraction of the artifact's value, then it seems likely that one of two scenarios would happen:
(1) Nobody takes up the offer as the reward does not justify the risks. You'd likely need a small army to retrieve it from the kobolds or goblins. Unless the mercs are really, really good at sneaking in, that is.
(2) Mercs come to take the job. But, secretly, they only came to learn who stole it and where it went. (And, perhaps, to demand partial payment up front.) They go and retrieve it. However, rather than return it to the dwarves, they sell it to a human merchant or noble or something because they would pay handsomely for it. That, or they might just keep it for themselves, such as if it was an artifact weapon.
Then again, perhaps gaining a positive reputation with the dwarves could be considered part of the reward? That, and being able to tell stories about it, have your names engraved in dwarven halls and linked in legends to the artifact itself. Heck, such might be worth giving them full dwarven citizenship.
Also, deceiving the dwarves in taking the job but then selling it to the highest bidder should have consequences. Maybe they'd hire more mercs to kill the deceitful mercs who sold it instead of fulfilling the job? Maybe those mercs would find themselves enemies of your entire dwarf civ?
Or, maybe players should check the reputation of would-be job takers before giving them the quest? Maybe giving the quest to other dwarves would make it less likely that they would sell it or keep it?
Post by: pikachu17 on June 29, 2016, 09:46:26 am
I meant while you're still playing fort there. do goblins build trenches ON your fort, WHILE you still live there?will eventually(way WAY back if ever, probably) invaders be able to repurpose your fort to live there, while you are still there? like for instance if your dwarves are stuck underground, the goblins could make a fort on the surface.
Humans already build keeps directly over conquered elven forest retreats.
And im sure that goblins already do also build trenches and outdoor fortifications on conquered sites too.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 29, 2016, 09:56:20 am
The mercenary might demand the cash sum or equivalent weight in precious metals/goods, but potentially on the cards is getting the adventurer betrothed to a fortress member. Kind of ties into the romanticised thought of offering a princesses/prince's hand in marriage as a peace broker, or having personal motives by individual to woo/contest for this person, though the reality grimly would probably not be prince charming.
Quote
"The *disgusting to look at* warthog man dreams of winning the hand of royalty/Wedding into power" (via a mixture of rule the world power ethics, hybridized with desire to love)
Post by: thvaz on June 29, 2016, 11:31:18 am
Well if it was appropriate, couldn't the mercenary seek to arrange their own terms of payment, then have them barter it out between the broker and the mayor (& others to represent the 'owners' of the reward)
The mercenary might demand the cash sum or equivalent weight in precious metals/goods, but potentially on the cards is getting the adventurer betrothed to a fortress member. Kind of ties into the romanticised thought of offering a princesses/prince's hand in marriage as a peace broker, or having personal motives by individual to woo/contest for this person, though the reality grimly would probably not be prince charming.Quote"The *disgusting to look at* warthog man dreams of winning the hand of royalty/Wedding into power" (via a mixture of rule the world power ethics, hybridized with desire to love)
We could pay them as they pay ours adventurers - with only a big boost to reputation. :)
Post by: Thundercraft on June 29, 2016, 09:43:14 pm
The mercenary might demand the cash sum or equivalent weight in precious metals/goods, but potentially on the cards is getting the adventurer betrothed to a fortress member...
Interesting! That does sound about right for a fantasy or medieval setting.
How would the fortress member to be betrothed get selected, though? Obviously, those already married or in a relationship would be excluded. And the adventurer's preferences/traits should be a factor. But would the mayor make the actual selection? The player? Does the would-be betrothed get a choice to decline (based on her/his traits and compatibility)? Perhaps fortress members who are having unhappy thoughts are more likely to jump at a chance to leave the fort by being married off?
If the player does not get to choose or have a say, that could potentially suck. Losing a new migrant with no skills of note or a cheesemaker might not matter. But imagine loosing your mighty Captain of the Guard or your only Legendary Weaponsmith...
We could pay them as they pay ours adventurers - with only a big boost to reputation. :)
Err... Yes. As long as reputation is about all the player gets in Adventure Mode, it makes no sense to be forced to pay quest takers in something other than reputation in Fort Mode.
But, I really hope that changes some day. Being paid in reputation is nice and all. Though, if I had a choice, I'd probably choose a tangible reward like money or items about half the time or as about 50% of payment.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 29, 2016, 09:57:30 pm
Will the expanded magic system allow for crafting reactions granted via interactions/artifacts/etc? If so, will a crafting reaction learned via interaction be usable in adventure mode? If so I can see this being very useful for modding, like making elves able to innately shape wood, or otherwise add reactions that aren't immediately accessible to ALL adventurers.
If not, I might have to bloat the suggestions forum a little more... owo
Post by: Dirst on June 29, 2016, 10:12:13 pm
Here's a thought:"After years of service to the Order, you have finally proven your worthiness to learn our most-guarded secret."
Will the expanded magic system allow for crafting reactions granted via interactions/artifacts/etc? If so, will a crafting reaction learned via interaction be usable in adventure mode? If so I can see this being very useful for modding, like making elves able to innately shape wood, or otherwise add reactions that aren't immediately accessible to ALL adventurers.
If not, I might have to bloat the suggestions forum a little more... owo
"I would not attempt to deny my excitement at this news, Grand Master."
"And as you know, divulging the secret would forfeit your life and your afterlife."
"Naturally."
"Let us begin. This is how you make a helve using woodcrafting skill."
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 29, 2016, 10:14:31 pm
Post by: Anton2181 on June 30, 2016, 05:16:14 am
Post by: JesterHell696 on June 30, 2016, 05:48:16 am
Quote from: Updated development page
- Hostility settings: No death or violence to regular settings to bleak and horrifying
What would "bleak and horrifying" entail? Would this include some of the things that have traditionally been avoided in Dwarf Fortress for various reasons, such as sex and (lack of) consent and whatnot? (There were, I think, some other similar things that I don't remember off the top of my head.)
Although such things can indeed evoke strong emotions, and not always positive, they also can be important components of the more bleak types of stories, sometimes; and Dwarf Fortress does of course aim to be a generator of many different kinds of stories. I understand many people do not want these sorts of things in their worlds/play, but that's alright so long as it's a setting (with probably the default set to the regular settings as we know them now or some such), right? Perhaps?
(Actually now that I read it again it says "hostility settings", so perhaps this really is just about the level of violence, and not other things about how friendly versus horrible things get. In that case, my question stands but without the reference to the dev page.)
I like the idea of a setting that could enable you to generate worlds from My Little Pony-esque with almost no violence or horror to a Berserk-esque world with extreme violence and horror, got to admit I would love to be able to play as Guts and non-consensual sex is a big part of Guts story.
Literally just the world of Beserk. Go mod in a claymore, roll a human character with one eye and you're all set to go.
Smear blood eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverywheeere
As someone who loves berserk (Yay, they are finally off that F*#king boat) I would love to generate worlds of Berserk level horror, I suppose some of it could be modded in now, use a combination of titan and were-creature stuff to make apostles but I'm not that good of a modder as it took me a couple hour to get my centaurs to walk...
Also there actually a Berserk dragon slayer sword mod here.
Code: [Select][ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_DRAGONSLAYER]
[NAME:dragonslayer:dragonslayers]
[SIZE:1800]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:77500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:15]
[ATTACK:EDGE:200000:8000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:6000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:250:4000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:5000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:500000:8000:slap:slaps:flat:6000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:500:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:5000]
Try this.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 30, 2016, 05:57:40 am
Will we be able to travel across the seas in Adventure Mode? Some kind of port system that could transport you across the water or along the coast would be great.Boats are planned after Scenarios and before Economy right now (so yeah, but might take a while). In the meantime fly with an animal-man or walk with a vampire!
Post by: therahedwig on June 30, 2016, 06:46:52 am
Anyone recall?
Edit: Since when are there so many sex and reproduction threads in the suggestion forum? Did everyone who suggests poop decide that if not the digestive system, the reproductive system needs to be the one that is simulated 100% correctly in df O_O
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on June 30, 2016, 07:26:35 am
I like the idea of a setting that could enable you to generate worlds from My Little Pony-esque with almost no violence or horror to a Berserk-esque world with extreme violence and horror, got to admit I would love to be able to play as Guts and non-consensual sex is a big part of Guts story.
As someone who likes both My Little Pony (please don't hate me) and The Walking Dead/Game of Thrones/etc., I would love this. I would play both extremes depending on mood and caprice.
Also, you're the second person to have mentioned Berserk in response to my question. I'm not familiar with this, but you guys make it sound interesting. It must be this (http://myanimelist.net/anime/33/Berserk?q=Kenp%C3%BB%20denki%20beruseruku), right?
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 08:42:37 am
Will we be able to travel across the seas in Adventure Mode? Some kind of port system that could transport you across the water or along the coast would be great.Boats are planned after Scenarios and before Economy right now (so yeah, but might take a while). In the meantime fly with an animal-man or walk with a vampire!
Thats another thing i was thinking about.
Past the introduction of the first boats to the game (whatever iteration that may take initially) will it be likely that we will see a content boost of oceans to spice them up a bit (assuming optimisation allows us to engage with oceans) with the manifestation of coral (since it doesn't practically exist) and additional variety of creatures for aquamarine monster hunters to pursue and navies to bump into accidently. Thinking along the lines of the warhammer spin-off Man'O'War.
Quote
The fleet known as the Twisted Tongs has been ambushed by a primordial giant white sperm whale!
Post by: JesterHell696 on June 30, 2016, 10:55:17 am
As someone who likes both My Little Pony (please don't hate me) and The Walking Dead/Game of Thrones/etc., I would love this. I would play both extremes depending on mood and caprice.
I don't hate MLP, whatever floats your boat man.
Also, you're the second person to have mentioned Berserk in response to my question. I'm not familiar with this, but you guys make it sound interesting. It must be this (http://myanimelist.net/anime/33/Berserk?q=Kenp%C3%BB%20denki%20beruseruku), right?
I was talking about the manga (http://mangafox.me/manga/berserk/) but yeah that is the anime adaptation, I love the story and guts is awesome and I suggest reading the manga when you have the time.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on June 30, 2016, 10:57:19 am
I am staring at that devlog and at the mention of the alternate magical lands, aligned with sphere and stuff. And It just hit me, we've had threads about alternate landforms, buttes, hot springs, geysers, etc. But has anyone ever suggested floating lands? They seem a very common fantasy staple(with the more extreme examples having there only be floating lands and sea, or floating lands that move about the map... perhaps a bit too intense for df), and they'd probably need floatboats to be any fun, but I can't off the top of my head recall floating lands be suggested or talked about.
Anyone recall?
There's "flying sites, can be handled like boats somewhat" (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_warriors_dead.html) as a goal in one of threetoes stories, involving a flying castle, so it's bound to be in their notes somewhere ^^
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on June 30, 2016, 11:37:43 am
I was talking about the manga (http://mangafox.me/manga/berserk/) but yeah that is the anime adaptation, I love the story and guts is awesome and I suggest reading the manga when you have the time.
Cool, will do!
Post by: Heretic on June 30, 2016, 04:01:24 pm
1. Why it is impossible to distribute the computation to find the path of creatures between the threads?
I know, here are a lot of problems with no-blocking aссess to memory, but for example i can't find any objections to separate eery hundred of creatures in fortress to different processor, to create fortresses with population more than 300+ dwarves.
Other idea is to separate working with world outside of fortress to other thread - i think here is no need for big changes for it.
Ok, it's just not suggestion - i sure you thinking all this and found some problems, and i just intrested to find more about these problems.
2.Whether the dwarves have the opportunity to remarry?In some sutuation, with some ethics, with law-realese, etc.
3.Would player be able to animate inanimate objects and plants with some magic systems? For example, it would be possible to assemble an army of Ents or swarm of knives?
4.About intellegent artifacts... what about books that can impact on the psyche and beliefs of reader?
I mean, that could be done some of these things that's vampires, parasites suck the soul, or anything like that.
5.What about runic magic or something else similar to it?It's really dwarf-style.
6.Are you planning diversify the dwarven politics? Make meetings, protests, get to fight for the financial situation?
7.Are you planning natural calamities and disasters? Floods there, earthquakes, volcanic?
8.How do you imagine the mental weapon in the DF?
9. Would seasons impact on agriculture more realistic?
10. Will there be further developed composite objects, in addition to music. tools? I meant things like to see armor made of plates, rivets, leather straps, or, for example, chain mail from a pile of steel rings, wooden spears, and the tip of the handle of the crossbow, arcs etc.
11. Will it somehow resist exploits? Would impose restrictions on the amount that can accommodate a tile (excluding living creatures) that there was no quantum warehouses?//
12. Do you plan to modify the skills system? The ideal option in (not)my opinion - the separation of knowledge required for the job, attributes, and motor skills. That this would be the most it. Cutter can easily become an engraver, having due talents and woodcutter quickly learn to chop enemies. Any same varschiki potash and soap-boiler are good brew. And vice versa - the jeweler will be hard to learn how to dig, and craftsman of the soldier will be released so-so.
13. That C++ feature is our favorite? Especially in modern C++.
14. How many classes in DF code, summary?
15. Have you any plans to replace hell(as location) to genrated system, included into myth generation? For exmple, in world with zero fantasy we should n't have hell.
16. Can you tell more about how you represent fragments of primal egg and other generated mega-location, how big they should be?
17. Pleaaase give as some screeeens from myth generator, demonstrated in video from conferetion...
18. And some Scamps :P
19. If you still remember , how the revolutions works ... What reasons are possible?
20. Why where are so few hunters monsters?
21.When the game learn to understand that civilization is dead and why it is so difficult to code?
22. I know, in DF more features then I can find, playing for ages of real time...
Possible you can tell as more about one random feature, that you really like but but it is rarely used?
23. Have you even use genetic alghoritms\genetic programming or neural networks?
Big thanks!
Very sorry for the mistakes (writing in a hurry), and some smell of suggestions... Most part of them - not my ideas.
Post by: Inarius on June 30, 2016, 04:13:58 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 30, 2016, 04:20:21 pm
Post by: mifki on June 30, 2016, 08:23:28 pm
Post by: Demonic Gophers on June 30, 2016, 10:11:27 pm
You also talk about portals that can introduce new materials and creatures to a world. What will determine the things that can come from these portals? Will it be possible to limit raw-defined creatures to originate from a particular sort of portal, or from portals in general?
Post by: Dirst on June 30, 2016, 10:37:44 pm
In the wonderful new dev page on artifacts and myths, you mention "creative actions taken by gods and ancient races" as a source of creatures, land forms, etc. Will it be possible for creatures in the raws, that will be physically present in the world after generation, to take part in these actions? I think of one of my modded races, and some domesticated creatures, as having been altered or created by another modded race. I would love being able to make the creation myths reflect this. Also, I could imagine powerful wizards creating creatures as servants, or a lasting legacy, in the latter stages of creation.Really hoping the answer is yes to at least some of this :)
You also talk about portals that can introduce new materials and creatures to a world. What will determine the things that can come from these portals? Will it be possible to limit raw-defined creatures to originate from a particular sort of portal, or from portals in general?
To follow up on what you said during Dwarfmoot, the second half of my question was about how modders would interact with the myth generator. Do you envision giving modders some control over worldgen? Not to get too suggestion-y, but something like packing default worldgen parameters somewhere in the raws. Or letting certain game objects appear only under certain conditions.
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 30, 2016, 10:43:58 pm
How do you manage/distribute time? Do you have any fixed schedule like 4 hours a day trying to build with new compiler, then interrupt and 4 hours to work on new features, then interrupt and 1 hour reading mail, and so on?
Having been watching the thread for the latest version, it almost seems like unfucking compiling has devoured most of his time.
Post by: Hellcommander on July 01, 2016, 12:23:59 am
Post by: Max™ on July 01, 2016, 01:08:50 am
Post by: 90908 on July 01, 2016, 03:56:51 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 01, 2016, 04:40:27 pm
Is their plans for artifact armor that affects (be it positively or adversely) the attributes of the user, such as strength, speed and other things.
Lime green is your friiieeend.
Post by: 90908 on July 01, 2016, 04:50:30 pm
I apologise for my transgressions.Is their plans for artifact armor that affects (be it positively or adversely) the attributes of the user, such as strength, speed and other things.Lime green is your friiieeend.
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 01, 2016, 05:07:04 pm
Post by: ZM5 on July 01, 2016, 05:46:01 pm
What I mean is, and it links with the second question I want to ask, will there eventually be more types of sites that serve as lairs, and will some of them be more like randomly generated dungeons in the vein of vaults, with minions and such and the megabeast serving as the "boss" at the end of it? Of course there'd still be the more simple burrows/mounds and such as obviously a large dungeon wouldn't fit a roc or a hydra, but if there's eventually gonna be randomly generated sentient titan/FB-like creatures then it'd probably more fitting for them to settle in more elaborate sites with worshippers or some other types of servants.
As for the second question: will there be more randomly generated dungeons and whatnot later on? For example, abandoned aboveground castles and fortresses with zombified peasants and other servants, and an evil king/queen wielding some type of artifact weapon or amulet that lets them raise the dead and also makes any type of undead obey.
I'm guessing these are already planned but I had to ask for clarification after this came up in a private convo.
Post by: vjmdhzgr on July 01, 2016, 05:55:11 pm
Is their plans for artifact armor that affects (be it positively or adversely) the attributes of the user, such as strength, speed and other things.I don't know if Toady's ever answered this directly, but the answer is doubtlessly yes.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 01, 2016, 06:06:59 pm
Toady's occassionally said magic items should be more than just a simple "D&D +2 broadsword" so, there's actually a chance that it's 'No'. At least not directly. 'Turns you into a vampire thereby raising your stats', perhaps?Is their plans for artifact armor that affects (be it positively or adversely) the attributes of the user, such as strength, speed and other things.I don't know if Toady's ever answered this directly, but the answer is doubtlessly yes.
Post by: thvaz on July 01, 2016, 06:19:42 pm
Toady's occassionally said magic items should be more than just a simple "D&D +2 broadsword" so, there's actually a chance that it's 'No'. At least not directly. 'Turns you into a vampire thereby raising your stats', perhaps?Is their plans for artifact armor that affects (be it positively or adversely) the attributes of the user, such as strength, speed and other things.I don't know if Toady's ever answered this directly, but the answer is doubtlessly yes.
The Adams brothers usually look for reference into fantasy novels, myths, history and movies instead of games. Armors and weapons that changes their users into something extraordinaire aren't unusual in these sources, so while we won't have a "Armor of Defense +2" I bet we are going to have a similar effect.
Post by: NCommander on July 01, 2016, 06:20:36 pm
Toady's occassionally said magic items should be more than just a simple "D&D +2 broadsword" so, there's actually a chance that it's 'No'. At least not directly. 'Turns you into a vampire thereby raising your stats', perhaps?Is their plans for artifact armor that affects (be it positively or adversely) the attributes of the user, such as strength, speed and other things.I don't know if Toady's ever answered this directly, but the answer is doubtlessly yes.
Actually the help screens actually had a action on magic items and identifying them in the GUI which has been there since the beginning I think. I don't think magic items exist beyond the help screen though Giving items syndromes is already semi-doable in the code, and DFHack can actually make those objects so possibly ...
Looking at Dwarf Mode right now, what systems in your mind are currently "mostly placeholder" vs. more or less complete?
Post by: Toady One on July 01, 2016, 06:29:52 pm
Quote from: TheBiggerFish
Have you considered reading more Discworld books?
I had a few more from when I read the pyramids one (Guards something I think and whatever came next), but that was ~a decade ago and I didn't read them. Then I didn't circle back around and don't really plan on it. It's hard to find time.
Quote from: Gashcozokon
Do you think that, similar to graphical tilesets, there will be a list/file which will allow assignment of specific character codes to units by profession and/or the rest of the item set?
I'm not sure what we'll end up doing. d_init has picked up some of the newer tiles, but I don't know what to do with everything else, or how the needs of people have changed with the various mods that are out there now.
Quote from: Urlance Woolsbane
Apologies if I've asked this before, but is there a chance of you ever devoting a release to polishing off the raws? I appreciate the practicality of the case-by-case strategy you use for adding tags, but it does tend to result in some frustratingly rigid parameters.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Quote from: timotheos
Now that we have fully customisable job instructions (btw thanks this is really great) do you have any plans to look at the various stockpile options and break downs? Such as what comes under each category, the filter options and even a search option?
I just have the list of suggestions people have made, rather than particular plans myself for this sort of thing. I'm not sure when I'll get there.
Quote
Quote from: ThundercraftEither through Adventure or Fortress Mode, will there ever be some way to convert part of an Evil or Good biome to neutral (neither)? If nothing else, will there be some way to stop Evil Rain or Evil Clouds, such as through prayers to a deity, through magic, or some other mystical effect or reaction?
Similarly:
Will there eventually be a way for the actions of an Adventurer to create a new Evil or Good area?Quote from: PatrikLundellMy understanding is that evil/good biomes are going to be reworked as part of the myth/magic stuff. However, the underlying question of whether sphere influences can be induced/manipulated/adjusted by the player is a good one (as well as the follow on question of whether this will happen* in the near or the far future, if the answer is yes).
Yeah, that's the hope we've put up now with the new magic notes -- that these things would become changeable parts of the world, at least a lot of the time.
Quote from: voliol
1. Will there be artifacts with "souls", like a talking sword or maybe a soul jar that an important person could store their own soul in. I think you've addressed this topic before and said you wanted to implement it sooner or later, but will it appear in the "artifact update"?
2. Will your dwarves be able to create artifacts that are actual living(or non-living) units? Like a golem of some kind.
3. Will there be multi-part artifacts? Say something really powerful like a door to the demon/god realm would need both the door itself and the keystone needed to power it that is made separately.
4. I think you've said something about artifacts getting different effects depending of what caused their making (fey, inspiration by gods, possession etc.). What are the current plans regarding the differences?
1. We're hoping to get to intelligent artifacts with a magic release, rather a pre-magic artifact release. The magic notes are broad though, and it is unclear what will be in the first pass.
2. That's also up in the new notes. Hopefully we'll see some of it.
3. We've had artifact sets in the dev notes for a long time, but I'm not sure when we'll see it.
4. The working theory for a while has been to link effect types to sources through spheres or other such mechanisms. That's still the plan as it stands. We'll see what happens when we get to magic, since we might pivot to other/additional systems as the need arises.
Quote
Quote from: NopenopeHave games, recipes etc. been put off completely from this release arc? If yes, are they planned for the artifact release? Or boats? Or starting scenarios?Quote from: DeKaFuare recipes and the cooking overhaul still on the table (so to speak) for the near future?
Yeah, I've put them off and have no idea where their new home is so far.
Quote from: Thundercraft
Why are some large predators like the Dingo and Wolf not hunting or war trainable, while other large predators like the Leopard and Lion are hunting / war trainable? (Also applies to Giant versions.) Even more confusing: Why is the Black Bear not hunting / war trainable when both Grizzly and Polar Bears are?
I don't even know. Combination of copied raws, dubious specific thoughts, and history tidbits? They should probably all just be turned on or something.
Quote from: Jimmius
Which features are you most looking forward to working on post-myth arc? Or does it vary from day to day?
Yeah, it's hard to say. Boats sound fun, but all of the embark scenario stuff is post-myth as well, and a lot of that will be really interesting.
Quote from: Pseudopuppet
With the introduction of alcohol inebriation, taverns, and temples, I feel as if the effects of the stress system have become quite rare. It's almost as if one needs to intentionally and actively stress out the dwarves to actually see the effects of it nowadays. It's not like we need to go back to the old days where a tantruming dwarf can send a fort into ruin, but is the current state of almost-permanent euphoria among your dwarves intended for now?
Inebriation is certainly broken with the dampening effects on other emotions, since it essentially turns off part of the game for a well-supplied fortress.
Quote from: pikachu17
just what do PATTERN_FLIER and UNDER_SWM do?
PATTERN_FLIER controlled the bat riders with paralyze-dart blowguns that used to fly through the 2D chasm. It isn't for anything now.
UNDER_SWIM controls whether or not something displays as blue when it is at the surface of the water in a 7/7 square. So a human would still show in its normal colors, but a fish displays as underwater. It's an old tag, so I have no idea if it still does that correctly.
Quote from: Met
Ocean Titans don't seem to get generated anymore. Can we expect to see them terrorizing the seas when boats are introduced? We currently have Sea Monsters but they're limited to evil regions and don't have that randomly generated charm.
I'm not sure what to expect out of boats overall. I can't commit to one thing over another. Monsters attacking boats would be more fun if the monsters were larger... but we'll take what we can get.
Quote from: kane_t
Do you plan to add more noble positions in Fortress mode--especially ones with special requirements (like offices)--or to strengthen the requirements for the noble positions that exist (like bookkeepers consuming writing material)? If so, is that a near-term milestone or a long-term one?
I'm not sure what's going to happen since the embark scenarios and the corresponding framework rewrite is going to drop a bomb in the entity position system. I'll be more concerned with getting new responsibilities and diplomacy-style events sorted out then, and whether requirements survive in their current form is up in the air.
Quote from: LordBaal
This might not be for this release, but is indeed a question for the future of the fortress. How much independence or free will for the dwarves or any being that composes the population of your fortress you intent in the end? I mean, eventually we'll end up with "civilian zones/areas" where the dwellers can do whatever they want?
To further what I mean, I'm imaging zones where they can make up their own rooms/houses, workshops, markets, churches, taverns and so on at their own wits within the same site of your fortress.
The player is meant to be the "official will" of the fortress. That implies that dwarves should have a lot of freedom if the fort government isn't all-encompassing. At the same time, it's hard for them to manage their resources sensibly and could be frustrating. We might start seeing more of this with some of the embark scenarios once the framework is in place -- perhaps the structure of laws and customs will stop the player from controlling certain aspect of dwarven life directly when they are in a given scenario. Writing the AI will be a challenge, but we're all for messing around with it in pieces.
Quote from: exdeath
At GDC it was said that you can set the myth level, that limit the stuff that can happen on the world, humans as some example have an ultra low mythic level and so they can happen even with a ultra low myth level.
My question is, does setting your world mythic level to a high value, force the world generation to generate high mythic level creatures/stuff, or the world will generate itself logically as it always do and if it the generator "feels" a higher mythic level thing is needed it will put this thing without rejecting the world?
The way it worked in the presentation, everything had a minimum and maximum range, and it used everything that fit the range, whether it was at the low end or the high end. In the game, it might not be able to fit everything, and it would probably just exclude things at random. It would be bad if a high-rating world had only mundane things in it, but that would be unlikely or impossible based on the number of raw objects it wants.
Quote from: peasant cretin
As armor stripping is being added, might that also mean weapon using NPCs would be capable of wrestling attacks? Currently this is not so if NPC is in possession of a weapon. Default is attack with weapon, punch or kick.
They just use a free grasp when they specifically want to do this kind of wrestling. They don't know how to handle it if they are holding a weapon and a shield, say. I haven't expanded their thinking more generally.
Quote from: Witty
What are the requirements for an opponent to remove helmets? Does the creature in question need to be intelligent, or can large predators remove helmets as well?
I guess people know better than I do how it actually worked. It was supposed to be a free grasp + intelligent, but I've seen non-intelligent creature doing lots of wrestling through the years.
Quote from: TheFlame52
In real life, losing a limb is very painful. In Dwarf Fortress, losing a limb isn't painful at all. Is that going to change?
I'm open to improving it.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Any ideas on what went wrong with monster hunters? Don't think anyone's spotted one through the whole release period.
I haven't gotten a chance to look into it yet. Are they even in legends anymore?
Quote
Quote from: ThundercraftAs part of adding armor item damage, are there any plans to allow dwarves or other crafts-persons the ability to repair damaged armor? Or will players be forced to either obtain or make new armor and either sell or smelt badly damaged armor?Quote from: stinkasectomywith the new system of weapon and armour damage, do you intend to implement a way or repairing damage? if repairing is implemented, will it require more resources (some more bronze to repair a damaged bronze item etc). does (should?) the damage apply to artifacts? i like the idea of repairing any of my military's named items, even if they aren't artifacts.
We'd like to let them fix the items, but we didn't get to that and I'm not sure what's going to happen. It might be that materials will be required for repair if you want the item to not degrade in some way, but I'm not sure what it should depend on or how far it should go. Material use might be too much, especially for items that take just one resource item to make in the first place. Artifacts aren't currently damage-able, but that might change once artifacts become more numerous and some are more important/magical than others.
Quote from: WordsandChaos
Will armour and weapons be able to be repaired infinitely or could there be a diminishing effect? Could we, in the future, see 'status' effects, like rust on metal? Like if you leave a sword or a helmet in a pond, it rusts.
Could we eventually see books burn to ash? As much as the thought makes me uncomfortable, I'm imagining a scenario where a great store of information is lost from the world when a fortress library is destroyed by a dragon/forgotten beast/angry dwarf with a torch.
Rust was in the old dev notes, and the more stuff like that the better, but it's hard to get to it.
Quote from: therahedwig
Will it be possible for modders to introduce some 'hardcoded' elements into mythgen? Like, for example, a God of War named Mars, or a God of Music named Eru Iluvatar? How much do you think it'll be possible to shape mythgen over time?
I've resisted hardcoded historical figures (of which deities are a subclass) up to this point, but when we build up the editors from the dev page, we're certainly going to allow you to use some editor elements in your world and generate the rest. Myths and historical figures are specifically mentioned on the dev page, so this would include the ability to add a particular deity to an otherwise random universe. There are difficulties that come up along the stitch points about when it should grab something hardcoded and so forth, but the myth generator in particular was written with that in mind.
Post by: Toady One on July 01, 2016, 06:30:14 pm
Quote
Quote from: LordBaalWonder if Toady has ever thought about having cannons at least in naval warfare. If not then I suppose the plan is having them filled with catapults and ballistas? Also, does the plan of adding boats includes making them in fort mode/being captain in adventurer mode? Will boats mean we could have river docks on fortress mode to trade greater quantities of merchandise?Quote from: Urist McWoodBurnerWill you be implementing some sort of port that can be built in fortress mode? That would make ocean embark more interesting and also being able to build ships/wagons to send to trade with other cities?
I don't have a hard line on ship cannons really. I'm not sure what we'll end up with. That would lead to cannons on land, though, and that starts to move away from where I want vanilla to be. It's hard to say what the first boat release would have, but we're certainly aiming for adventure mode captains. I think it would be cool to have ships coming in vaguely like the wagons do, yeah, and we were hoping to get to it. Underground lakes too, once we do the deep dwarf trade stuff -- that might be more dwarfy than a cliff-less ocean fort or one on a navigable river, but we'd try to support as many embarks as we can (and it should happen naturally if boats are on those waters). Building boats at the fortress is a bit more complex and is the probably the sort of thing that would fall victim to a time shortage on the first pass, but we'll see how it all blends in with moving fortress pieces and all that.
Quote from: Dirst
Do you envision ships on the ocean only for the first release or so, or is it important to make the system generalized so that ships, riverboats and moving fort walls all come out at once?
It's important for the system to be generalized from the beginning, however, that doesn't mean I'll get to everything! Riverboats would require some work on making rivers more navigable, and moving fort walls would require an associated interface and possibly new items. So even if the moving map system is general, we still might have to pick and choose based on the timing.
Quote from: Cormack
With the political system will we be able to play as judges or lawyers or have a trial in adv mode? I think that this is much needed with the thief arc - if you are caught you should stand a trial according to the laws of the civ you stole something in. Simply being sentenced seems not enough. I really want to be sent to a penal colony in the game and organize a rebellion there.
I'm not sure what order things will come in after the law framework is in place, but as usual we are all for simulating as much as we can and generalizing the frameworks so that the adventure can play as many roles as possible. You can get a long way with sentence-only, but of course it's more fun to have more. Though, from experience on other projects, the information tracking required to get a general evidence system up is difficult. Fortunately, we're part of the way there with rumors and so forth, but it isn't nearly enough to pass muster in a trial setting.
Quote from: stinkasectomy
will we see swords breaking into two separate pieces (blade/hilt etc), or gauntlets lose a finger, or chain mail lose some links? lots of fantasy about reforging broken swords, after all. items losing pieces would likely cause item bloat in many cases, and a pretty major rework even if it didnt bloat (so not any time soon i guess).
We've been hoping to have item components for a long while, but it hasn't happened yet. Yeah, it's an important part of a lot of stories, enough so that it would be worth it to figure out the various issues. As long as it isn't overzealous about blowing items into pieces all the time, the bloat shouldn't be an issue. It would be kind of annoying to have an indoor battlefield littered with all sorts of shards and shreds to clean up beyond what we already have.
Quote from: LoSboccacc
any plan to reorganize stragglers job interfaces (like jewlery workshopt) to the new system?
It's a different interface from the others, so it has been slow to move it over. I'm not sure when it'll happen.
Quote
Quote from: LordBaalWonder if the manager will get any upgrades for things beyond workshop orders. Like mine x amount of coal or fell x amount of sand pear trees.Quote from: Rinin_RusNew manager system is very usefull feature, but is it any plans to add [d]etails feature for bags/barrel related jobs, since now "mill 10 rye flour" or "brew 10 River Spirits" and all other jobs (as I see with more than 1 reagent) cannot be automated without annoying tricks. Or at least is it any plans to add specific products to manager check list? Because "brew alcohol here till it's less than 10 River Spirits" will make life easy enoughQuote from: Urist McGoombaBrotherWill there be some more fixes/enhancements regarding the workshop details menu? Or is the actual status considered as finished? I am especially referring to clay workshops and non-hardcoded reactions/reactions for muscial instruments for other workshops like the mason.
I made this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158090.0) for more detailled information, what I mean. Not sure, if I shall make an entry at the mantis bug tracker for this or whether those are features for the suggestion forum.
I don't have particular plans, but am open to continuing to add this sort of thing, especially between the content releases. I'll be looking over suggestions as always -- stuff just gets lost in here, while suggestion threads are read and sorted. Fixes are possible sooner, though I won't get to everything.
Quote from: Dame de la Licorne
Back in the 2D days, we had to build a road for wagons to get to the depot, and smooth floors if the depot was underground. Are there any plans to reinstate that requirement (or something similar/equivalent)? I always found it added a nice bit of in-game realism, that this (not-so-)distant outpost needed to connect with whatever roads were in the vicinity before getting the massive caravans and more efficient communications with its home base. And given that the near-future plans include interactions with nearby settlements, this seemed like an appropriate time to bring it up.
Yeah, world-spanning roads and walls and bridges sort of fell into disuse there somewhere, probably because the economy/caravan arc did not come to pass as planned. And yeah, we'll probably see this come back up as we do the embark scenarios and then the economy work. I'm not sure exactly how it will play out though.
Quote from: falcc
Since kobolds, or at least kobold sites, are getting an update soon will there be any expansions to poisoning weapons or world gen traps to make them comparable in challenge to the other major game races?
Since they're smaller than goblins, occur in lower numbers than goblins, and don't even have armor it seems like the environment will have to be more difficult to navigate, at least until the mechanics are in for tossing scorpions at people or poisoned nets or whatever else has been predicted for them.
Do you have any plans for felled trees or piles of rocks blocking paths for multi-tile things with wheels like wagons or siege engines? Obviously tiles are very fluid when it comes to moving over furniture but it seems like there'd be something missing from the arrival of goblin siege engines if big piles of logs in their path don't need to be cleared out, allowing the dwarves more time to flee or maneuver.
Are elvish abilities (growing weapons, communing with animals) going to become components of the nature sphere under the myth generator, or remain abstracted for the time being? There was a power goal about talking to rabbits and leading them on a revolt, will that make its way in there? Are those terrible wooden armors going to see some kind of magical boost to put them more on par with other races, whether its in regards to strength or the new armor damage system?
Will/do semi-artifacts gradually wear out and is there going to be a way to get armor to semi-artifact status in adventure mode if you're really desperate for that adamantine helm to be passed down to your grandchildren once they're implemented?
It's possible there'll be some kobold additions, but we're not sure exactly how far we're going to go. We'll mainly aim at it being possible to recover anything without 200 kobolds sitting on top of the items, but we'd like to do additional work.
Don't have particular plans about logs or rocks. There was a bit of talk about pile tiles as a way to stop quantum item piles, but I don't know what'll happen.
I'm also not sure when we'll get to any particular powers over others. There will be an expansion, and we'll try to touch on various things, but there's so much ground to cover I can't promise anything.
There will probably be some artifacts being worn down as we add more of them. We were thinking about letting adventurers name anything they want. As long as they doesn't give it magical damage-proofing, it should be fine, though it would be odd for people to suddenly care about everything you carry.
Quote from: Japa
Will Threetoe write any more stories any time soon?
He is working on one now, based on an unfinished lore-heavy game project we were working on, but it's a bit slower with the number of rewards each month (problems we want to have!).
Quote
Quote from: InariusToady, do you mind talking a bit more about how do your brother and you work, everyday ? Does he bring the idea and you the code ? Does he help you on debugging, or code himself, test the game ?Quote from: mifkiHow do you manage/distribute time? Do you have any fixed schedule like 4 hours a day trying to build with new compiler, then interrupt and 4 hours to work on new features, then interrupt and 1 hour reading mail, and so on?
It always changes, sometimes just as time goes along and sometimes based on monthly responsibilities (for instance, today I'm basically doing Future of the Fortress and tons of Patreon emails and no programming at all). For the last months, when things are settled down, we have the morning period from 9am to 5pm, where Zach is over at my place, well, first it is email and forum stuff, then Zach arrives. He'll write reward stories and we'll talk about whatever needs to be talked about intermittently as I program whatever the current project is -- I don't split between new features and the new compiler right now, since I don't fork, it's just new compiler/64 bits and planning. Recently, during the long compiles we were doing the new artifact/magic pages and the related notes, for instance. Then there's an evening block from 5pm to 11pm, at Zach's place, where I do B12 emails/etc. and side projects if there is time (I guess side projects vaguely count as new feature forks, since that's all they've amounted to so far). Then there's a late block from 11pm to 1 or 2am, where I just catch up on random whatever. I can read, or set up a compile and read.
Quote from: pikachu17
will eventually(way WAY back if ever, probably) invaders be able to repurpose your fort to live there, while you are still there? like for instance if your dwarves are stuck underground, the goblins could make a fort on the surface.
I'm not in a rush to do that sort of in-play-zoomed-in settlement AI at the dwarf time scale since it would only come up in very strange situations like this. If the underground civilizations underneath your fort start to behave a bit more intelligently as we build up, say, underground animal people, whenever that happens, then a few things might start to happen more naturally. There's also a chance that the different embark scenarios will lead to expanded fort-mode AI.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
By "editors for fixed worlds" is that what you were talking about at Dwarfmoot with people being able to create their own worlds and sites and make Moria replicas, etc?
Yeah. We've had that crappy altitude painter, and the modders have done quite a bit so far as I know, but having a fast, integrated way to do site/world maps and historical figures would be cool and hopefully not too time-consuming to maintain at this point in some future-proofish format. It detracts from the overall mission in the sense that it's not a generator, but we decided it would be fun enough that that doesn't matter, and it continues to force us to be honest and consistent with our generated output.
Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
What would "bleak and horrifying" entail? Would this include some of the things that have traditionally been avoided in Dwarf Fortress for various reasons, such as sex and (lack of) consent and whatnot? (There were, I think, some other similar things that I don't remember off the top of my head.)
Oh, and at the other side of the spectrum, is "No death [...]" to be taken literally? Will there be no death at all in this setting (and what would that mean for the demographics and such of the worlds)? Or just no death due to fights and wars and the like?
Nah, we weren't thinking of going that way.
Yeah, no death at all. Use of the attack button in adventure mode removed, etc. We were thinking of intermediate setting(s) where wars and attacks against intelligent critters would be off, but e.g. hunting and butchery would be permitted, so you could still do the ranch-fort thing without worrying about wars or extortion or whatever.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Will we be able to play as said intelligent artifacts? Will we at least be able to talk to them?
I don't think you'll be playing as an item any time soon, just for technical reasons. If there are intelligent automatons, that would be an outside possibility (since presumably those would be "creatures", though even that is not clear). I think talking to intelligent artifacts is quite possible early on -- it might be one of the only ways to know they are intelligent at all.
Quote from: Inarius
It seems that, in the development page, you want to give a very important role to artifact(s) in the next version(s). For now, artifacts are numerous in Fortress mode, meaning that, if other fortresses and cities produce as many artifacts as us, there will be a LOT of artifacts all over the world. Does this mean less moods and artifacts in the future or is this intended ?
I'm not sure the player fortress frequency will need to be changed. The artifacts in other parts of the world will mostly be in other parts of the world, and I think in a gameish fashion they probably just won't make as many as player forts, so we shouldn't have a total glut. We'll see though. We'll have to deal with it if it gets really confusing, and if player artifacts become more magical and powerful, they might be less frequent in some worlds (while in high-magic worlds, there could be lots of magical items without them having artifact status).
Quote from: thvaz
Will we be able to put quests to retrieve stolen artifacts on our fortresses? So instead of risking our dwarves in the mission, outsiders would do it.
He he he, I haven't thought about it. I guess it would be similar to more proactively seeking monster slayers rather than waiting for the (apparently broken) petitioner to arrive.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Will the expanded magic system allow for crafting reactions granted via interactions/artifacts/etc? If so, will a crafting reaction learned via interaction be usable in adventure mode? If so I can see this being very useful for modding, like making elves able to innately shape wood, or otherwise add reactions that aren't immediately accessible to ALL adventurers.
I'm really not sure how it'll work -- there will be effects that create things, and effects that require reagents, but that doesn't mean it'll be the same as a crafting reaction or involve that system at all. It'll need to group or break apart those pieces of interactions, to put multiple effects or pieces of interactions under different umbrellas. It's unclear if reactions would get looped into that.
Quote from: Heretic
1. Why it is impossible to distribute the computation to find the path of creatures between the threads?
I know, here are a lot of problems with no-blocking a??ess to memory, but for example i can't find any objections to separate eery hundred of creatures in fortress to different processor, to create fortresses with population more than 300+ dwarves.
Other idea is to separate working with world outside of fortress to other thread - i think here is no need for big changes for it.
Ok, it's just not suggestion - i sure you thinking all this and found some problems, and i just intrested to find more about these problems.
2.Whether the dwarves have the opportunity to remarry?In some sutuation, with some ethics, with law-realese, etc.
3.Would player be able to animate inanimate objects and plants with some magic systems? For example, it would be possible to assemble an army of Ents or swarm of knives?
4.About intellegent artifacts... what about books that can impact on the psyche and beliefs of reader?
I mean, that could be done some of these things that's vampires, parasites suck the soul, or anything like that.
5.What about runic magic or something else similar to it?It's really dwarf-style.
6.Are you planning diversify the dwarven politics? Make meetings, protests, get to fight for the financial situation?
7.Are you planning natural calamities and disasters? Floods there, earthquakes, volcanic?
8.How do you imagine the mental weapon in the DF?
9. Would seasons impact on agriculture more realistic?
10. Will there be further developed composite objects, in addition to music. tools? I meant things like to see armor made of plates, rivets, leather straps, or, for example, chain mail from a pile of steel rings, wooden spears, and the tip of the handle of the crossbow, arcs etc.
11. Will it somehow resist exploits? Would impose restrictions on the amount that can accommodate a tile (excluding living creatures) that there was no quantum warehouses?//
12. Do you plan to modify the skills system? The ideal option in (not)my opinion - the separation of knowledge required for the job, attributes, and motor skills. That this would be the most it. Cutter can easily become an engraver, having due talents and woodcutter quickly learn to chop enemies. Any same varschiki potash and soap-boiler are good brew. And vice versa - the jeweler will be hard to learn how to dig, and craftsman of the soldier will be released so-so.
13. That C++ feature is our favorite? Especially in modern C++.
14. How many classes in DF code, summary?
15. Have you any plans to replace hell(as location) to genrated system, included into myth generation? For exmple, in world with zero fantasy we should n't have hell.
16. Can you tell more about how you represent fragments of primal egg and other generated mega-location, how big they should be?
17. Pleaaase give as some screeeens from myth generator, demonstrated in video from conferetion...
18. And some Scamps :P
19. If you still remember , how the revolutions works ... What reasons are possible?
20. Why where are so few hunters monsters?
21.When the game learn to understand that civilization is dead and why it is so difficult to code?
22. I know, in DF more features then I can find, playing for ages of real time...
Possible you can tell as more about one random feature, that you really like but but it is rarely used?
23. Have you even use genetic alghoritms\genetic programming or neural networks?
1. Pathfinding generally has some sort of buffer, and we'd need to allocate extra buffers and be careful of how they are used by multiple path-finding critters. It's not insurmountable, but I don't even know if there'd be a speed advantage once you start adding overhead of that size on the large maps we have. Probably, if the buffers are partial, or something. You can't just separate out the rest of the world -- the fortress is part of the world through consideration of historical figures and the site and all that, and there are shared writes we'd have to be careful about screwing up. I don't relish attempting it.
2. Yeah, it makes sense. There are just some minor technical barriers (some of the data storage would cause the old spouse to be forgotten, I think, and screw up the legends).
3. It's listed as an effect in the myth generator, but it's unclear which ones we'll get to on a first pass. We had animated trees in the game during elf invasions long long ago.
4. The non-intelligent books can already affect beliefs by being read, he he he. Anything else is fair.
5. People like runes for dwarves. Due to the sphere setup, there'll probably be a bias toward stone/metal/artifice type magic for dwarves in general, so I wouldn't be surprised if that eventually becomes fairly common in the random magic systems in the cases where dwarves get magic.
6. The embark scenarios with the new custom/law/property frameworks should see the first of that, and hopefully it'll get more complex over time. Some of the first planned embark scenarios are pretty explicitly of a different political setup than the current expedition leader/mayor one.
7. Yeah, dunno when though.
8. I don't understand this. Like psychic combat or a debate?
9. Yeah, ideally. There are involved suggestions for this and we come from a family of botanists and gardeners, so you'd hope we get there.
11. It almost happened with the helve/stone axe, and there'll be other opportunities as we go. We want item components.
12. It's a difficult problem, I think. Ideally tile sizes would make more sense and be better respected.
13. I don't know much about it and haven't followed all the changed. I just know that auto is my friend.
14. Probably not as many as there should be... "class " and "struct " occur a total of 2300 times, but that's a huge overcount, since it includes friends and other non-major declarations. I'm not sure how to get at the real number. Visual Studio's Class View has a list but I don't see how to count it. Tried to paste it into a text file to count the lines but it doesn't have line breaks.
15. Yeah, it's up on the new dev notes!
16. It would be best if you could have biome-sized ones. We'll do what we can. The current geology layering would pretty easily support having a biome whose ground is made out of mineable "cosmic egg shell", I think. It would make a nice home for your dwarves.
17. Like additional screens? Weren't there some floating around? I can cook up some more but they might not be relevant to what's coming on the first pass, if you look at the total list of magic effects and what won't be implemented.
18. Scamps is on my lap right now but I don't have a camera.
19. I don't follow... like the uprisings in adventure mode? I think those are pretty bad, if they work at all. Just based on perceived strength of an occupier based on rumors and popcounts or something.
20. Like the monster slayers? There seems to be a bug or something.
21. I'm not quite sure what this is in reference to. A bug, or doing it in play? Something I said earlier? Setting the dead flag itself doesn't seem completely impossible, checking through living historical figures every so often and site populations and armies, though there are probably some annoying side issues there, and perhaps a speed hit if we aren't careful to flag who should be checked and when (when a histfig dies, say, and other cases).
22. I'm no good at pulling single favorite things out of my head... I think the forum has found everything in the various minor observations and easter egg threads.
23. Nope.
Quote from: Demonic Gophers
In the wonderful new dev page on artifacts and myths, you mention "creative actions taken by gods and ancient races" as a source of creatures, land forms, etc. Will it be possible for creatures in the raws, that will be physically present in the world after generation, to take part in these actions? I think of one of my modded races, and some domesticated creatures, as having been altered or created by another modded race. I would love being able to make the creation myths reflect this. Also, I could imagine powerful wizards creating creatures as servants, or a lasting legacy, in the latter stages of creation.
You also talk about portals that can introduce new materials and creatures to a world. What will determine the things that can come from these portals? Will it be possible to limit raw-defined creatures to originate from a particular sort of portal, or from portals in general?
One of our ultimate hopes of these magic systems has been that a player wizard or fortress experiment would be able to create a new race, yeah, but it is kind of a pinnacle goal rather than something that is likely on the first pass. With the vaults, we intentionally added the ability for new raw objects to be generated after year 1, and that was done with this sort of thing in mind.
The portals would be portals to other places, and those other places would be the planes from the myth generator most likely. The nature of the plane would determine what comes through. Over time, the myth generator will likely allow specific raw linkages to occur, but since the planes aren't decided in advance, I'm not sure what'll be present on the first pass. It could be sphere or otherwise based.
Quote from: Dirst
To follow up on what you said during Dwarfmoot, the second half of my question was about how modders would interact with the myth generator. Do you envision giving modders some control over worldgen? Not to get too suggestion-y, but something like packing default worldgen parameters somewhere in the raws. Or letting certain game objects appear only under certain conditions.
The randomness/magic settings stuff will allow some control along those lines, and however the editors function will also impact it. I'm not sure how it's going to work, though. Your overall point makes sense to me, about allow raws to function as a full-fledged setting by giving them an option to bundle together with params and whatever other new stuff comes in. I'll keep it in mind. Perhaps any editor-based world would be such a bundle, even if most of the elements (including initial myths) are randomized and just use parameters. Then people that do total overhauls could just do them as an editor world.
Quote from: Hellcommander
Do you play not make it possible to hold on to something and move (ei so something that is very strong and could fly can grab someone, fly, and then drop them for deadly damage or enable land mob to grab a enemy and pull it somewhere)?
I'm not sure I understand, but we had some combat dev items about dragging people and there might have been an old powergoal etc. about monsters dropping somebody from a height. We're all for it.
Quote
Quote from: 90908Is their plans for artifact armor that affects (be it positively or adversely) the attributes of the user, such as strength, speed and other things.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerToady's occassionally said magic should be more than just a simple "D&D +2 broadsword" so, there's actually a chance that it's 'No'. At least not directly. 'Turns you into a vampire thereby raising your stats', perhaps?
When we get to the magical artifacts, after the pre-magic artifact release, those are certainly on the table for artifact powers, since they are easy to implement and still affect the game. A lot of it might become more involved, or contingent on various in-game factors from the myths and so forth. High-magic worlds might see people with magical armor that isn't even necessarily of artifact status. But yeah, I'd expect things like that to also be strange in some way, or at the very least myth-inflected. It's quite possible that some generated world would just have a nice object though, free from compromise and mystery and confusion, due to some kindness of the RNG. Then that fantasy setting would just be slanted toward that thing, which is fine. The more the game reacts to its presence, the better it will feel. And then there's whatever we end up with on the first pass, which hopefully won't be too generic.
Quote from: ZM5
This may be somewhat of an odd question, but are there any plans for a megabeast lair revamp?
What I mean is, and it links with the second question I want to ask, will there eventually be more types of sites that serve as lairs, and will some of them be more like randomly generated dungeons in the vein of vaults, with minions and such and the megabeast serving as the "boss" at the end of it? Of course there'd still be the more simple burrows/mounds and such as obviously a large dungeon wouldn't fit a roc or a hydra, but if there's eventually gonna be randomly generated sentient titan/FB-like creatures then it'd probably more fitting for them to settle in more elaborate sites with worshippers or some other types of servants.
As for the second question: will there be more randomly generated dungeons and whatnot later on? For example, abandoned aboveground castles and fortresses with zombified peasants and other servants, and an evil king/queen wielding some type of artifact weapon or amulet that lets them raise the dead and also makes any type of undead obey.
We're all for it, and a lot of our ruin planning for the treasure hunter role was based around this sort of thing, and magic with expanded wizard base concepts will help as well. For our particular megabeasts, I'm not sure exactly what else we'll get in the near-term, though. Having megabeasts grabbing artifacts already raises various questions, and it would be nice if their lairs weren't boring.
Quote from: NCommander
Looking at Dwarf Mode right now, what systems in your mind are currently "mostly placeholder" vs. more or less complete?
Everything is subject to change. Some of them just won't change because I don't get there, but I don't really think of the game in terms of complete vs. incomplete so much. Just in terms of where the plan will take it, insofar as the plan has been made, and which parts of the plan are closer than others. There are lots of things that we'd like to merge (like the whole zone/pile/room/workshop/etc.), but it's unclear what we'll actually get to... none of it feels very done to me. Is there anything that would survive the rewrites we already have posted on the new or old dev pages?