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Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Topic started by: Iituem on August 07, 2017, 09:16:59 am

Title: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 07, 2017, 09:16:59 am
HIVE RACE

Asymmetric Arms Race game.  One side plays a Wands Race style human alliance of Classical city-states that have just discovered the rudiments of magic.  The other side play a hive mind race of insectoid conquerers, able to alter their own genetic code to produce new forms of workers and warriors.  Both sides are capable of mundane innovation, but the hive race is incapable of using magic and the humans are incapable of modifying their own genetics in the same manner the hive race can.

The League is a fragile alliance of Bronze Age human city states joined together by the threat of an emerging menace that has already consumed one of their brightest city-states and threatens to overturn all of the Hadaean Archipelago.  Their scholars have just rediscovered the fundaments of magic alongside the new threat, and hope to wield this new power against their scourge.

The Hive is a hive-mind collective of insectoid drones, freshly resurrected from their ancient slumber.  Massively outnumbered at first, the Hive has a lower variety of troops, doesn't really use tools, and cannot use magic.  They have two advantages; a phenomenal rate of reproduction and the ability to re-shape future generations at the whim of their queens.

You can join the Hive here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165138.0)

You can join the League here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165137.0)

 Discord. (https://discord.gg/24FeUUb)

Please note that you can only play for one side, so once you declare yourself for a side you can only read and participate in that thread.  Don't cheat, nobody will appreciate it and it ruins the fun of the game.  You can throw sass at one another here in the main thread just fine.

Also, please remember the cardinal rule:  Don't be a dick.  Vigorous discussion is fine, personal attacks on your rivals (out of character) are not.  If you have to ask "Am I being a dick?", you're being a dick.  Don't be a dick.


Spoiler: Rules (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Warfare Under the Hood (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Initial Map (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: League Starting Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Hive Starting Units (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 07, 2017, 09:55:41 am
Hey, why not. You can never have too many arms races, right?
...
Right?

Anyway. I'm gonna join the Hive, because I like underdogs.

A question, though. I notice the starting tech for both sides is not mentioned here. Are we allowed to look at the opposing thread's OP to know what we're facing, or is even that meant to be a mystery to start with?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 07, 2017, 10:00:24 am
Hrm.  Good point.  I'll post a truncated version of both here in the OP.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 07, 2017, 10:09:04 am
For the Hive
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 07, 2017, 10:13:44 am
Hmm. That makes four for the hive already, with no one in the League. Join the puny humans! Otherwise we won't have anyone to kill :/
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Madman198237 on August 07, 2017, 10:17:08 am
I'll join League.

But I won't be doing ANYTHING more than posting this (Haven't even read through the rules yet) til Friday evening.

So probably nothing until Saturday morning.


If nobody else joins the League, feel free to blame me for all your "Game is not moving" problems. I will gladly take credit.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Felissan on August 07, 2017, 10:31:16 am
This is just way too interesting. I'll be spectating both sides.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Khan Boyzitbig on August 07, 2017, 10:50:56 am
I think I'll go with the league, at least to allow the game to run. Much as I would prefer to be an insectoid nightmare.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Jilladilla on August 07, 2017, 10:58:22 am
Do I have time for another Arms Race game?... I guess so. So onwards to The League I go!
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on August 07, 2017, 11:19:39 am
I'll go for the League, I got the time.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Taricus on August 07, 2017, 12:03:13 pm
One more for the league!
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Kashyyk on August 07, 2017, 12:33:47 pm
I've noticed that neither side has a listing for their reinforcement rates. Is that intentional?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 07, 2017, 01:39:37 pm
I've noticed that neither side has a listing for their reinforcement rates. Is that intentional?

They do now.  Needed to get the first pre-turn up.  You should have reinforcement rates for your own (and your enemy's) side, based off what you've observed about their force arrangements.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on August 07, 2017, 01:56:22 pm
Just going to observe.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 07, 2017, 06:34:56 pm
Viable Strategy Actions

I've been asked to provide examples of viable actions in the strategy phase.  Here are a few.  Sometimes an action will not cost a die to implement, if a decision needs to be made anyway - if this happens it will be explicitly stated.

- Construct/Raze a fortification in owned territory.
- Change which National Effort is being built (if there is a choice between multiple).
- Decide where the National Effort is deployed.  Free action, never costs a die.
- Change which cities are sending forces to which Fronts.  (Can do multiple at once.)
- Change the Budget.*  [More than 10%.]
- Colonise a new territory.
- Rebuild a city or ship extra immigrants to it to help it grow.
- Try to build some sort of megaproject (assuming you've researched some sort of megaproject).  No idea what this would even involve yet.

* Edit:  You may change the Budget for your side as a free action, so long as you do not change more than 10%; i.e. taking up to 10% from other assets and diverting them to a new one.  More than this requires significant re-tooling of production.

Note that implementing a new strategic or tactical doctrine is a Design action (or Revision to revise an existing one).  Neither side currently employs tactics beyond 'charge them and flank if you can'; these must be researched.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 07, 2017, 06:45:14 pm
Are limited budget changes ever free? Say, if 30 turns from now the League revised an arcane archer (not-elite, but too expensive to be a direct upgrade) unit from bowmen, would we be able to shift however much bowman budget to it we want?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: RAM on August 07, 2017, 08:32:28 pm
I worry that ideal peasants are a bit too simplistic of a measure. There are some configurations that are effectively invulnerable against unarmed opponents in combat situations and could essentially kill as many peasants as they can reach, and could, over the course of years, go through millions. Meanwhile, a very lethal critter with obvious weaknesses might be able to go through ideal peasants at an extreme rate, provided that they are not surrounded, and thus, in a one-versus-many encounter kills far fewer than a more consistently resilient unit would, but when employing formations and tactics to cover their exposed rears accounts for a far larger proportion of their team's kills.

Also there is the issue of units specifically suited to numerous but unskilled opponents. Something that effectively immune to peasants might be outmanoeuvred and pierced by trained soldiers with hard and heavy weapons, while a critter suited to killing professional soldiers with lethal hit-and-run tactics might be swarmed and torn apart by a similar number of fast and desperate peasants.

And then there is the issue of actually killing these peasants. An inebriation spell might be very good at reducing enemy performance, but not actually enough to kill anyone by itself. A wizard with Booze Cloud(an area--effect), Bite of the Paranoid Shroom(a weapon enchantment), and Spear of the Malevolent Chilli(a ranged bolt that causes pain and potentially blindness) might have a kill-rating of around 2 or 3, but might be the difference between a bunch of spearmen being overwhelmed handily or holding a pass for hours.

Then there is the matter of ammunition. An Olympic gold-medallist marksman with a rifle and 5 bullets might well be able to kill 5 peasants and then beat up a sixth with their rifle, but make it 7 and they go down in a two-to-one brawl. But those first five kills could have been something much more intimidating than a mere peasant.

Perhaps a compromise would be to have a number of ideal peasants killed with an upper limit to it, and then add a time that is required to kill them.
Or maybe the scale jumps to a new standard at certain points. Like, there is no such thing as killing 10 ideal peasants, because instead of ten ideal peasants, you get one ideal tiger, and if you are up to ten ideal tigers, then you jump up to the ideal orca scale. And, effectively, one orca is equal to one hundred peasants, but if you can kill one hundred peasants then it probably isn't the number of peasants that is the determining factor as opposed to it being a matter of getting tired and making mistakes. Orcas, on the other hand, if you can kill an orca then a second orca, or having some tigers and peasants riding on the orca, adds a lot of imminent threat beyond just exhaustion from having to stab them all.

P.S.
*Dons top-hat and carapace-wax. We shall show those barbaric peons the superiority of our superior insectoid culture! We had mastered the art of dance before you vulgar brutes had managed your first stick figures in caves and the lethal wit we shall etch upon your civilisation's eulogy shall for all time demonstrate the worthiness of our cause!
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 07, 2017, 08:43:56 pm
P.S.
*Dons top-hat and carapace-wax. We shall show those barbaric peons the superiority of our superior insectoid culture! We had mastered the art of dance before you vulgar brutes had managed your first stick figures in caves and the lethal wit we shall etch upon your civilisation's eulogy shall for all time demonstrate the worthiness of our cause!
Ew it's a bug. Someone squish it.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 08, 2017, 12:42:07 am
Do we have numbers on the sides? I'll join whichever is fewer
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on August 08, 2017, 12:59:53 am
6+ active participants for Hive, some people are unsure or just general spectation;
I believe the League has less players then.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Jilladilla on August 08, 2017, 02:35:37 am
Yup, join The League, we need more people. We do have hoplites however, that more than makes up for not being giant insectoid horrors on its own, I feel. And that's before you get into the magic!
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 08, 2017, 03:19:48 am
Are limited budget changes ever free? Say, if 30 turns from now the League revised an arcane archer (not-elite, but too expensive to be a direct upgrade) unit from bowmen, would we be able to shift however much bowman budget to it we want?

Hm.  That's a fair point.  I might adjust that to give, say, 10% free change on Budget (that is to say, up to 10% can be subtracted from other budget items and given to a new one without spending a die).  More than that requires significant re-tooling of production.

Quote from: Lots about Ideal Peasants
-snip-

I may go back and change things, but for the moment I'm comfortable with action happening on a large enough scale to represent it statistically.  Don't take the phrase 'ideal peasants' too literally, it's more representative of a behind-the-scenes numerical value.  I have still to decide on whether to reveal said numbers to the sides (for their own units) yet, however.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Happerry on August 08, 2017, 03:27:03 am
This looks interesting and I have come to join the noble league in defiance of those evil icky bugs.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: RAM on August 08, 2017, 03:30:35 am
I may have gone overboard with my rant when I realised that it was heading towards unarmed untrained peasants riding on tigers riding on orcas. But then again, if it were that simple, then I probably wouldn't have stopped until dinosaurs got involved...
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: wolfchild on August 08, 2017, 04:56:58 am
PTW for now, might join the hive at some point but im a complete newbie to Arms Race games
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 08, 2017, 05:50:00 am
To clarify a point asked; Yes, you may use a Revision to alter a previously existing design, not just one you've Designed yourself.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 08, 2017, 10:44:58 am
Alright, as much as everyone wants to be giant bugs, I will endeavour to have as much fun killing them.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 08, 2017, 03:03:59 pm
Apparently my d6s only want to roll 1s today.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on August 08, 2017, 03:12:26 pm
You need to involve a pity mechanoc, that's the perfect way to make the best style of arms race which is like a "Tug War". Side A will be in the lead for three turns, than Side B will get some spotlight, that's how you make the most intricate game.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: helmacon on August 08, 2017, 03:49:46 pm
Does anyone have current player counts for the two factions? I would like to join the under staffed side.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Jilladilla on August 08, 2017, 04:03:35 pm
Does anyone have current player counts for the two factions? I would like to join the under staffed side.

Gimme a minute and I'll give you the number of unique posters in The League's thread minus Iituem and those going 'PTW'.

It's 8, if I counted right. (Fairly sure I did, but could've missed someone or double counted, went through the thread very quickly after all)
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Felissan on August 08, 2017, 04:05:37 pm
The Hive has 8 players, while the League has 9.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 09, 2017, 10:46:46 am
There's been a few background joins however.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 09, 2017, 11:45:01 pm
A note on turn order, which may make things look weird:  Units are reinforced, then battles happen, then territorial conquest is checked.  The status reports for each side may look strange in that they're not obviously using up all of their resources in a given turn, but this is because men have been killed since the reinforcement phase.

I originally had the turn run: Battle, then reinforcement, then conquest.  This produces neater looking reports, but you have to wait a full turn for new designs to enter the field.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: crazyabe on August 10, 2017, 12:10:53 am
Late PTW.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 12:41:08 am
NO PRAYING TO WIZARDS ALLOWED!!! The only praying shall be done by mantises!
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 10, 2017, 02:36:35 am
Did someone mention praying to wizards?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 02:59:43 am
Only in my head. WHICH IS VAST AND IMPORTANT!!!
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 10, 2017, 03:29:04 am
Sieges and Territorial Control

To push a Front, you need 50% more Territorial Control than your opponent.  As seen in Year 301, the 1st Front saw the League raise 710 TC to the Hive's 309, or 227.5% of their opponent's score.  This was enough to push the Front back to Menotos.  The 2nd Front saw the Hive raise 659 TC to the League's 130, so they pushed their Front to Dromio.

Every unit exerts some Territorial Control; by default, this is a TC of 1.  Forts provide both a flat bonus to TC as well as a percentage bonus to all units stationed in the Fort.

Level 1 Forts (Redoubts, Palisades):  200 Fortification, 10% increase to defender TC.

Level 2 Forts (Walls):  500 Fortification, 20% increase to defender TC.

Level 3 Forts (Keeps):  1200 Fortification, 30% increase to defender TC.

Unless you have siege units, Fortification adds a flat bonus to defender TC.  For example, if the 2nd Front's armies were to remain the same next turn (which they won't because reinforcement), the Hive would exert 659 TC, while the League would exert 656 TC, or 130 * 120% (156) + 500 from the Walls.  This would mean the Hive has barely over 100% of the League's TC, stalling their advance.

Siege units such as ballistae directly reduce flat Fortification bonuses.  They do not reduce the multiplicative bonus to TC that forts provide.  e.g. If the Hive got hold of ballistae, it wouldn't matter whether they fielded 20 ballistae or 100, they could only knock down Dromio's Fortification bonus by 500; the 20% bonus to TC for the defenders would always hold regardless, representing unchanging terrain conditions that help them out even if you knock all the walls down.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Kashyyk on August 10, 2017, 03:36:59 am
Do Siege Units negate all flat bonuses completely such that the League's 1 Ballista will negate all 1200 fortification points at Menetos, or do they remove so much per unit like they apply TC?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 10, 2017, 07:40:32 am
So much per unit.  1 ballista is not enough to counteract even a Level 1 fortification entirely, but it will help.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 10, 2017, 07:44:49 am
On a side note, is it possible to push a territory more than once per turn?

Oh, and what happens if all forces in an area are exterminated, but the TC treshold isn't reached due to fortifications.

Edit: Oh, and I don't know if others are appreciating the hilarious irony of the Hive being zerg-rushed by the League.

I mean, the reinforcement rate of the League is staggeringly high and increasing, while ours is fairly low and more or less locked down.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Kashyyk on August 10, 2017, 07:51:53 am
Clearly, man and insect alike will then proceed to try in vain to break into an unoccupied castle :P
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 10, 2017, 08:07:18 am
Now I'm imagining 1199 insects standing upon one another's shoulders, desperately trying to reach over the top of the walls.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 10, 2017, 08:08:52 am
I assume fortifications refer to garrison armies as well.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 10, 2017, 08:37:20 am
If you can successfully murder every last man standing in a fortification, you take it even if you don't have the TC.  Be aware that you need to murder every last man standing to do that, though.  One Aphrokema can hold a fort, Rambo-style, presumably by luring enemies into pit traps and putting up scarecrows in windows with the spears of his or her fallen brethren to trick the drones down below into assuming a much larger force.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 04:27:08 pm
Well now we are going to have to design a massive ball of hardened carapace with a tiny little hint of beetle in the middle with such a low metabolic rate that it can completely seal itself for a decade and even the G.M. can't tell if it is still alive. Those pesky humans will have to completely dismantle the gate in order to roll the thing out of the castle...
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Taricus on August 10, 2017, 04:29:13 pm
We'll just seal it up in concrete then. Or water or anything else. Can't live if it's drowning.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 10, 2017, 04:33:51 pm
Have you been paying any attention to the terrain your workers are splorshing through? We're throwing absurd numbers of slaves around; your armor ball in a fortress is useless.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 10, 2017, 04:35:22 pm
Yeah. Kinda silly really.


The faction whose defining charesteristic is supposed to High reinforcement rate is being zerg rushed with cheap cannonfodder.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Jilladilla on August 10, 2017, 04:48:01 pm
Yeah. Kinda silly really.


The faction whose defining charesteristic is supposed to High reinforcement rate is being zerg rushed with cheap cannonfodder.

I'll be 100% honest with you: I really, really didn't expect to actually push you lot back to Menatos on any front, I was predicting losing ground on all three...
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 10, 2017, 04:52:38 pm
It doesn't seem silly in retrospace though. You have nearly as much reinforcement on front 1 as we have over all 3 fronts together.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 05:04:15 pm
We'll just seal it up in concrete then. Or water or anything else. Can't live if it's drowning.
It is already sealed. It has a significant air-pocket inside and an extremely slow metabolism because all that it needs to do is count as alive and inside the fortress. It suffocates itself deliberately because it can hold its breath well.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 10, 2017, 05:10:40 pm
I'll be 100% honest with you: I really, really didn't expect to actually push you lot back to Menatos on any front, I was predicting losing ground on all three...
Well, I mean, unless there is some effect lowering our TC on front one, we shouldn't have actually been driven back there? If the surmised relationship of one Hive unit = one TC (based on the other two fronts) is correct, then we should've had 440 TC, which is more than half the League's TC there.

It is, of course, totally possible that there is an effect that lowered our TC on that front. Perhaps some magic that we weren't informed of? You guys would let us know if you had secret TC reduction magic, right?
Or perhaps our number of units was misreported, and we actually have 309 units on front one.
(It is also, in theory, possible that the One Unit=One TC seen on fronts 2 & 3 is not true, and that they just happened to match up on two fronts by coincidence)
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 11, 2017, 12:01:52 pm
I think different units are worth different TC, and also different combat power, given what warriors are.

But I think (as long as we don't take Menatos) the game will be evening out very quickly.
Turns out The League has a mess of other issues which need fixing in the background, whilst the hive can be all combat all the time
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 11, 2017, 12:09:20 pm
I think different units are worth different TC, and also different combat power, given what warriors are.
If you count up the number of Hive units on fronts 2 & 3, you'll find it is exactly the same as the Hive's TC on those fronts.
Combat power is absolutely different. But so far, I think all our units are worth 1 TC. That might change if we design a unit specifically designed to hold territory.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 13, 2017, 08:03:23 am
A number of bugs have been fixed!  Things should be a bit less screwy on the reinforcement front next turn.  Should have the error margin down to about 1% or less.

Also, Damage Types are now live!  As are Resistances.  Spitters now do actual 'acid' damage, while everything else does 'physical' damage.  Boats are now 15% vulnerable to fire!  I don't think any other damage types exist yet, but the possibility is now there!

Edit:  Under the Hood, I've added an extra variable that increases the amount of timber ships are allotted, since they were getting less timber than they should - now they're getting the right amounts of timber - there should be an increase in ships produced this coming turn, up to the level they should be at.

Edit 2:


A Clarification

On your status reports, which look something like this:

Quote
==The Divided States of Generica==

Production: 200/1000 ore, 460/1000 timber, 300/1000 training
Manpower: 8000/10,000 {500/turn}

Where numbers are divided like so: 200/1000 ore, these numbers represent Resources in Use / Resource Capacity, or the total amount you produce full stop.  Units cost resources to maintain, so the DSG above can only spend 800 ore, 540 timber and 700 training next turn.

Manpower works slightly differently; Generica is currently supporting 8000 manpower's worth of troops.  This turn it received 500 manpower (and expects to do so again), so next turn that will read 8500/10,000 unless it loses troops to battle.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Blood_Librarian on August 14, 2017, 09:37:51 pm
LEGIOS ASTARTES, HAK HAK, UTANI!

DESIOS CRAFF. PURGH, PURGH AND RIP DEH LEAGUE

HEEH HIVE DELORES!

Spoiler: Translation. (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: RAM on August 14, 2017, 09:58:13 pm
A number of bugs have been fixed!
They were "improved"! To be "fixed" implies that they was something wrong with them. That can never be anything wrong with a bug. To see such blatant bias from the G.M., tsk tsk, for shame!

The League must be united!
 With fava beans and a nice chianti!
 Or just dipped in mayonnaise. An unrefined palate need not be an unworthy one...
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 16, 2017, 03:20:47 pm
We have a Discords, after request.

Discord. (https://discord.gg/24FeUUb)
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NAV on August 16, 2017, 03:35:43 pm
Whats wronng with easily followable in thread communications? Why does every arms race need a discord?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 16, 2017, 04:02:21 pm
Well, ICAR needed one so that there was a neutral space for banter, rather than having it on one forum or another.
And then people in Forenia's channel wouldn't stop talking about Wands Race, so we got a WR discord.
SR and HR have discords because all the cool arms races have one, I guess.

And, well, the SR discord has been used a lot- it wouldn't be possible to have that rapid discourse using only posts.

Though I agree that it must seem odd to see people voting for stuff with basically no reason, on account of being convinced in the discord.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Madman198237 on August 16, 2017, 04:17:32 pm
Like NUKE said, the Discord is for rapid back-and-forth discussion.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NAV on August 16, 2017, 04:18:48 pm
I am terrible at rapid back-and-forth discussion and I dislike it.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 16, 2017, 04:36:38 pm
I can't remember are you on our team in this one?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NAV on August 16, 2017, 04:42:40 pm
I think so. League.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 16, 2017, 04:45:36 pm
I think so. League.
We can be lost by missing discussions together.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 18, 2017, 07:22:29 pm
Bugfix:  Stopped one side killing more of another side's units than actually exist.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 18, 2017, 07:23:58 pm
That wasn't a bug. We invented time magic in another future.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Blood_Librarian on August 19, 2017, 12:03:29 pm
the bug legions are the best.

we can kill more people then they actually exist.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 19, 2017, 12:09:35 pm
You know, if you keep piling up soldiers, our ballistas are going to eventually hit one.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Blood_Librarian on August 19, 2017, 12:55:50 pm
Long after your slaves are killed, your Spearmens Entrails decorate our hallowed grounds, Your Skirmishers put to the ground after serving the Nest with their sustenance. Long, long after the greatest warriors lay dead in our maws, and your god's altars desecrated in the name of the Hive, WIll your Dreaded Balistae strike our selves, again and again, until they too, will fall under our inevitable demand.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 20, 2017, 01:35:34 pm
I just want to say that I really like this AR. It's setting, it's mechanics, and details.

While I was typing this, I had an idea. Posting it without thinking it through: What about a 'free' strategy (or a limited die, like 1d4 or only allowing certain actions) that regenerates over 3 turns? It seems a little expensive that we have to pay in research actions for everything.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 20, 2017, 01:37:27 pm
You have a free unit redistribution of 10%.

What more do you need?

Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 20, 2017, 01:47:54 pm
Front redistribution, forts, and colonizing.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 20, 2017, 01:50:40 pm
Yeah, I'm going with nope as all three of those would shift the balance heavily to your side.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 20, 2017, 02:08:59 pm
Well we currently are getting smooshed, and for every little mid-step we have to research or strategise, you get flamethrower scuttlebugs.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 20, 2017, 02:12:06 pm
You start controlling 90% of map and 90% of the resources.

If we didn't start with an initial advantage, we'd get crushed immediately.

Also, you appear to have literally bottomless reinforcements that increase every turn, so you can't really complain.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 20, 2017, 02:15:55 pm
Do you not also have bottomless reinforcements which increase every turn?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 20, 2017, 02:18:07 pm
Nope.

Our reinforcements are strictly limited. What you've seen so far is all we got.

For the race with the supposed "terrifyingly high reinforcement rate", we're really short in reinforcement ability.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 20, 2017, 02:23:20 pm
If that's what you mean, i think you might be making some incorrect assumptions about the humans.

Edit: that being said, I've no idea how your side works mechanically and you're the same with mine. I think that's how it's supposed to work, and, in a vacuum we're naturally going to assume the other side is OP
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 22, 2017, 06:12:42 pm
Possible Mechanics Change: Training

Regardless of a decision made, this wouldn't take effect until after the next turn (or later, depending on coding difficulty).  Existing rules for all these resources would apply.


So, after a discussion on Discord about game balance there is the possibility of my rewriting the code to try and make things smoother or more representative.  Now, this might not be desirable full stop (don't shake the boat mid-game), and while I would do my best to adjust balance to make it all sane, it might not be a good idea.

Right now, Training works like ore and timber; you (and by you I mean the League specifically) produce a set amount of training each year depending on your cities and tech/other elements.  This serves as both building materials and maintenance, as well as a cap; if the League makes 1000 training a year and is spending 800 on troops, it only has 200 that turn to spend on training up reinforcements.

This has the weird effect that killing aphrokemae can be a good thing; it frees up training for mages and spearmen (or whatever else might be more desirable at a given time).  It also means that the amount of skill on the battlefield is constant; veterans don't build up over time, they remain constant.


The proposal is to change Training so that it isn't tied up in maintenance.  The annual cap would simply serve as a flat limit on production, regardless of the numbers and quality of soldiers already in the field.  This would result in rather situational pros and cons for both sides.

 - Veterancy.  Because a flat quantity of 'trained' troops of varying qualities would be added to fronts evenly each turn, the number of skilled troops would increase over time by attrition (slaves tend to die off, leaving vets alive).  Thus a Front would grow in strength over time as its troops collectively grew more capable.  The flip side is that killing those experienced troops would then deduct those veterans from the front permanently, and they would have to build back up.

  - Retirement not mandatory.  With flat training, skilled troops don't have to die on the field to free up training slots.  As a pro, it would lead to a larger influx of skilled troops to a front over time.  As a con, it means killing off the veterans is more of a blow because the 'stockpiled' training doesn't instantly refill.


I've set up a Strawpoll here (https://strawpoll.com/255ypakw) for people to vote on what they think is the better system.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Playergamer on August 22, 2017, 06:17:03 pm
I'm not participating but I'm watching with interest and I definitely think it should be production-only. Might have to rebalance the numbers, but that makes the game more dynamic in my opinion.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 22, 2017, 06:19:09 pm
I'm voting production-only. It may lean things towards the Hive in the long run, as a few kills could collapse a front entirely, but it adds narrative potential in the form of heroes.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 23, 2017, 01:42:42 am
As one of the instigators of this discussion, I thought I should share the main issue this addresses.
Namely that at present, the flavour is backwards.
The League, whose elite forces refill instantly (slaves barely matter, except as cannon fodder), has a "we have reserves" mentality. They can throw troops heedlessly into the grinder with almost no penalties.
The Hive, whose elite forces build up slowly over time, has a "we must conserve our elite forces" mentality. They need to be careful not to waste troops, as every loss is a permanent setback.
Whereas obviously the flavour is supposed to be that of a handful of brave soldiers holding fast against the seemingly bottomless hordes. Which is the case, only it's the League that is the bottomless horde.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 23, 2017, 01:56:47 am
Again, I have no idea what your mechanics are like, aren't your numbers limited only by food?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: RAM on August 23, 2017, 02:04:18 am
As a member* of The Hive's* I feel* it* urge*nt that The League not be bottomless. For if they lack bottoms, what shall we kick?
*Innuendo not intended.

Quote
Manpower is produced by Cities and Queens.
...
Both sides have a total limit to the amount of Manpower they can maintain at any given time, based off the number of Cities/Queens they have and access to Food.  Sides will reinforce up to that limit but cannot maintain more soldiers than that.
I was about to say something, but rechecking, it seems that yes, The Hive's limits are just food, apparently we can automatically fill to our food income. So nevermind what I may or may not have been about to say...
No, wait, logic sense frolicking! I think that I may have been making an improper assumption, there may indeed be an alternative... But probably not...
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Kashyyk on August 23, 2017, 02:26:52 am
As an observer, it appears manpower for the Hive is treated as a resource in the same way ore or wood I'd for the League,  whereas manpower for the league slowly gains "interest" like a bank account. This each unit of manpower for the League appears to be more costly to produce.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 23, 2017, 02:27:18 am
Again, I have no idea what your mechanics are like, aren't your numbers limited only by food?
At present, yes. But, unlike all other resources, manpower only refills slowly. Look:

Let's say that front A is full. The Hive has 300 Workers and 30 Soldiers. The league has 600 slaves, 50 spearmen, and 10 hoplites.
Now, both sides deal damage to the other. The Hive loses 150 Workers and 15 Soldiers. The League loses 300 slaves, 40 spearmen, and 8 hoplites.
Well, obviously the Hive is better off in this exchange, right? Wrong.
Now the fronts reinforce. The Hive reinforces 100 Workers and 10 Soldiers (they now have 250/25). The League reinforces ~150 slaves, and 40 spearmen and 8 hoplites.
Sure, the League is down a few slaves. But slaves don't matter. Only the elite troops really matter. And those are straight back up to full. Whereas the Hive has lost 1/6th of its actually relevant fighters, the League has lost nothing of importance. It didn't matter whether the Hive killed 40 spearmen or 0 spearmen, the next turn, the number of spearmen is the same. If things continue this way, the Hive will be attritioned down to defeat.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 23, 2017, 02:27:32 am
It's what seriously worries be, because if the Hive is pushing us back on all fronts already, what will happen now you have that lumber? What happens when you capture your first city?
Seems like a snowballing effect, and not in our favour.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 23, 2017, 02:29:10 am
Manpower works slightly differently; Generica is currently supporting 8000 manpower's worth of troops.  This turn it received 500 manpower (and expects to do so again), so next turn that will read 8500/10,000 unless it loses troops to battle.

This is how our reinforcements work. We can sustain a max number of X forces, and we can add Y forces each turn. That means that in order to reach X, we need to ensure our forces aren't killed.

As an observer, it appears manpower for the Hive is treated as a resource in the same way ore or wood I'd for the League,  whereas manpower for the league slowly gains "interest" like a bank account. This each unit of manpower for the League appears to be more costly to produce.

As someone whose actually in the game, I can tell you that for the Hive at least, you're wrong. Manpower is not ore or wood, it refills slowly, not instantly.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 23, 2017, 02:30:20 am
It's what seriously worries be, because if the Hive is pushing us back on all fronts already, what will happen now you have that lumber? What happens when you capture your first city?
Seems like a snowballing effect.
That's a question of game balance. If you don't think the game is balanced, take it up with the GM. If I were you, I wouldn't judge the effects of a thing happening before it happens.

What I'm talking about it mostly flavour. Things may be balanced, but they feel wrong, you know?
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 23, 2017, 02:30:58 am
As someone whose actually in the game, I can tell you that for the Hive at least, you're wrong. Manpower is not ore or wood, it refills slowly, not instantly.
You don't know how ore or wood works. Don't be that guy
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 23, 2017, 02:32:32 am
As someone whose actually in the game, I can tell you that for the Hive at least, you're wrong. Manpower is not ore or wood, it refills slowly, not instantly.
You don't know how ore or wood works. Don't be that guy
I know exactly how it works as the GM posted an explanation in this very thread.

An explanation that I linked, btw.

I suggest you take your own advice.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on August 23, 2017, 02:34:31 am
Earlier in this thread:
A Clarification

On your status reports, which look something like this:

Quote
==The Divided States of Generica==

Production: 200/1000 ore, 460/1000 timber, 300/1000 training
Manpower: 8000/10,000 {500/turn}

Where numbers are divided like so: 200/1000 ore, these numbers represent Resources in Use / Resource Capacity, or the total amount you produce full stop.  Units cost resources to maintain, so the DSG above can only spend 800 ore, 540 timber and 700 training next turn.

Manpower works slightly differently; Generica is currently supporting 8000 manpower's worth of troops.  This turn it received 500 manpower (and expects to do so again), so next turn that will read 8500/10,000 unless it loses troops to battle.
So, yeah, we know how ore and wood and training work.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 23, 2017, 02:46:24 am
Frankly, I hadn't yet read it, so I don't. Apologies.
But I'm kind of surprised it isn't income/spending based.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 23, 2017, 02:50:56 am
Don't you get this info in your Yearly Status info. We do, after all, so I'd be suprised if it was different for you.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 23, 2017, 08:16:45 am
I can confirm that manpower, timber and ore work the same for both sides.  The Hive isn't reliant (at game start) on timber or ore and have a higher base manpower rate, which is the main difference.  Though ironically, placing the League as the owner of most of the map did result in a bizarre reverse-Zerg Rush.

In any case, the poll quite strongly indicates (11:2) at this moment that production-only training is favoured.  I will implement it after the next turn-tick, so standard rules apply until the end of this turn.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 31, 2017, 05:56:38 am
Terrain Types in Effect!

We now have four terrain types (five if you include 'sea', which has no effects either way); Plains, Forest, Mountain and Urban.  Most provinces are Plains; provinces with cities or hives are Urban, provinces with timber are Forest and provinces with ore are Mountain.  The following loose penalties and bonuses apply to the different types of troop (modelled on League troops, with Hive drones suffering equivalent modifiers):

Infantry:      Neutral for most terrain types, with an advantage in urban environments.
Skirmishers:   Disadvantaged in open plains, slight advantage in forest, mountain and urban.
Cavalry:      Massive advantage in open plains, disadvantaged in forest, mountain and urban.
Traps:         Disadvantage in plains, advantage in urban.
Ranged:         Advantage mountain, disadvantage forest.
Artillery:      Advantage mountain, disadvantage forest.


Mages aren't affected by terrain.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Tack on August 31, 2017, 04:59:55 pm
Do hive troops have terrain advantages for their small, medium and large creatures?
Also Iituem your new combat layout looks beautiful and easy to read, but also crazy time intensive.
Don't burn yourself out yeah? We can easily put up with something more obscure.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on August 31, 2017, 05:29:27 pm
Do hive troops have terrain advantages for their small, medium and large creatures?
Also Iituem your new combat layout looks beautiful and easy to read, but also crazy time intensive.
Don't burn yourself out yeah? We can easily put up with something more obscure.

They have terrain modifiers that make sense for their drone types.

The combat layout was actually a rather easy change, I just didn't think to do it in the first place.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Kashyyk on September 26, 2017, 07:53:55 am
I hear the Hive is outnumbering the League both in the design room and on the field, so I'll be joining the Humans.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 26, 2017, 08:43:40 am
Technically, the League outnumbers the Hive by a great margin, which is negated bh the fact that most League units are only good at dieing.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: NUKE9.13 on September 26, 2017, 08:45:42 am
Yeah, the irony has been discussed at length- the League employs zerg rush tactics, whilst the Hive is concerned with preserving elite units.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Madman198237 on September 26, 2017, 11:52:12 am
And it is NOT OUR FAULT.

Blame the GM, he started us off in a really nasty position as far as "keeping guys alive" goes.
Title: Re: Hive Race: An Asymmetric Arms Race Game [Core Thread]
Post by: Iituem on September 26, 2017, 11:57:05 am
It is totally my fault.  But it's also far too late to change!  :D