Smoke: Bees exposed to smoke are less likely to attack. I'd guess 80% less likely to attack
Sting Effects: Non-allergic individuals can become resistant if stung periodically. For example, many veteran beekeepers have almost no reaction to stings.
In Humans:
+Allergic (12%): Bigger less-localized swelling.
+Severely Allergic (0.5% children, 3% adults): Vomiting, fainting, anaphylactic shock, and also bigger
Toxic Honey: Eating honey made from toxic plants often has undesirable side-effects.
Booze: Bees like it, but then they get drunk and drown in it.
Beekeepers usually burn plant fibers in a handheld "smoker" to puff smoke into their hives (not steam), but dwarven beekeepers might come up with some other method of smoke delivery to reduce stinging.
In real life we get stung all the time. A veteran beekeeper, while good at avoiding swarm-attacks, might get stung sixty times in a single afternoon's work (and be fine). Also, because resistance wears off, it's important to intentionally get stung periodically, doing otherwise is dangerous.
Beehives pick and choose just one type of nectar source to feed off of at any given time. As long as those flowers have nectar, the bees will keep with them. This is why you can get mono-floral honey in areas with a large variety of different flowers.
"How do you get them to choose the type of nectar you want them to?"
Bees have a preference hierarchy, but mostly its determined by abundance and proximity. If you want strawberry honey, put them close to a strawberry patch.
Toxic Honey: Eating honey made from toxic plants often has undesirable side-effects
Bees have their own peculiar preferences
"Toxic Honey: Eating honey made from toxic plants often has undesirable side-effects"
It's true for humans, not sure about dwarves. What's toxic to humans isn't always toxic to bees.
Honey toxic to humans:
+Azalea
+Mountain Laurel
+Oleander
+Yew
I approve of this thread, especially for the idea of different types of honey.
...
Wait, does that mean that strawberry honey tastes different than clover honey or something?
Yep, I think so. Most storebought honey (in the US, at least) comes from clover—sweet, but with a bit less flavor than some other honeys. My mom has a beehive with nectar from nearby fruit trees, and honey from that hive tastes noticeably different.
Honeybees have a special vendetta against horses, or the smell of their sweat at least. While other livestock is tolerated, horses can trigger a swarm-attack 80 feet from a hive. An attack will kill a horse that can't run away.
QuoteSmoke: Bees exposed to smoke are less likely to attack. I'd guess 80% less likely to attackOf course we'd need some reliable way to get steam without getting !!DWARF!! if you know what I mean
Hee hee hee, kobold bulbs, gnomeblight mead, gnome problem solved.
Right now there is no 'toxic plants' or flowers for that matter. But I do like the potential fun level of being in an evil swamp with an evil tulip.Oddly enough there are bad evil-lands grasses for cattle to eat, however. Like the creepy ass eyeball grass.
That's sad. Don't use skeps little dwarves! You don't need to kill your bees to get honey and wax.Toady knows that but apparently considers "bee space" based hive designs to be anachronistic.
Is royal jelly any good? Why would people want it instead of honey?
People want royal jelly because it typically gives them some of the highest magic point restoration rates of any item in your inventory.
Rare Honey: Not every plant flowers every year (sage every 2-3 years, kurinji once every 12 years).
Rare Honey: Not every plant flowers every year (sage every 2-3 years, kurinji once every 12 years).
So flowers like that are synchronized the way broods of, say, cicadas are? Interesting.
I'm thinking that honey should be named after the flower/nectar that it was produced from and not the type of bee. That is, "clover honey" instead of "bumblebee honey" and that bumblebees should have a lower rate of honey production.
Would be nice if we could make hives for things other than bees too. Like say purring maggots. You have to pile dead bodies or decaying body parts around the hive to keep the maggots fed.
Can't we? There are already two hive vermin. Why not more?Eh hives have to be outdoors to work. I was thinking of more diverse methods of sustaining them rather than just more types of vermin. Rotting organics, water, magma, ect...
I don't think beehives should have to be. As long as they have food (and water), there's no reason a healthy hive of bees couldn't be sustained indoors. Beekeepers use sugar-water/syrup/honey to help support their apiaries during droughts, and some beekeepers in cold climates winter their hives in their homes.Hence me wanting more ways to sustain hives.
Mister Always: "Do you like bumblebees?"
I haven't worked with them, but I like them. The foragers have that abrupt staccato way of flying around, and their queens are humongous!
Mister Always: "They're also fuzzy and petable."
From bumblebee.org:
"Thick hair can act as insulation keeping the bee warm in cold weather."
"When flying a bee builds up an electrostatic charge,...grains of pollen that are not touched by the hairs can jump
a few millimetres to the nearest hair."
Here's an idea, maybe in the DF world, rather than having bumblebees as wax and honey producers, they were instead domesticated for their Bumble-Fuzz!!
Ikkonoishi: "Eh hives have to be outdoors to work. I was thinking of more diverse methods of sustaining them..."
I don't think beehives should have to be. As long as they have food (and water), there's no reason a healthy hive of bees couldn't be sustained indoors. Beekeepers use sugar-water/syrup/honey to help support their apiaries during droughts, and some beekeepers in cold climates winter their hives in their homes.
Late season swarms are of little value to beekeepers. A traditional poem advises:
A swarm in May - is worth a load of hay.
A swarm in June - is worth a silver spoon.
A swarm in July - isn't worth a fly.
Here's an idea, maybe in the DF world, rather than having bumblebees as wax and honey producers, they were instead domesticated for their Bumble-Fuzz!!That doesn't sound even as practical as royal jelly harvesting. Maybe if there were giant bumblebees -- but even if we handwave the aerodynamic concerns, what would those get sufficient nectar from?
Of the Nine Fingers: Those visiting apiaries may want to first remove any rings.
One relieved finger (thanks to modern tools):
"http://extremethinkover.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/david-swollen-hand.jpg"
EDIT: Wait... do dwarves wear rings?
Of the Nine Fingers: Those visiting apiaries may want to first remove any rings.Goblins wear loads of rings. Is that fact applicable to fortress defense?
One relieved finger (thanks to modern tools):
"http://extremethinkover.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/david-swollen-hand.jpg"
EDIT: Wait... do dwarves wear rings?
JohnieRWilkins: "Goblins wear loads of rings. Is that fact applicable to fortress defense?"
Gangrene is serious enough, but fortress defense might require more expediency.
Flaede: "Something that causes swelling... bees should do this, but I bet they don't."
ORLY? What do you mean by that?
Michael: "...I'd recommend instead "stingless" bees, which were cultivated by the Mayans."
I'd forgotten about those guys! Lower risk for less reward. I like it!
Interestingly, nowadays there's also the very-dangerous but very-productive killer-bee *shudder*.
The poll only allows for five options. Anyone else for stingless bees (they could still bite wood-choppers)?
you can't really develop a resistance to being chewed on
I don't know, bugs can have pretty strong mandibles. I had an experience with a ladybug who was angry at my finger.
I don't know, bugs can have pretty strong mandibles. I had an experience with a ladybug who was angry at my finger.
The Ladybugs in Toronto wouldn't bite until a stupid experiement had them breed with an Asian variety. Now their red color is deluted and they bite.
Any comments or criticism for my suggestion to be able to store up honey as a "liquid"?
Interestingly, nowadays there's also the very-dangerous but very-productive killer-bee *shudder*.Since Dwarf Fortress worlds are mostly unsettled and initial bees must be taken from the wild, the "Killer Bee" phenotype should actually be the normal state.
Interestingly, nowadays there's also the very-dangerous but very-productive killer-bee *shudder*.Since Dwarf Fortress worlds are mostly unsettled and initial bees must be taken from the wild, the "Killer Bee" phenotype should actually be the normal state.
The "Killer Bee" story is actually less about the bees themselves, than about human expectations. What really happened is, long before the breeding experiments that made the problem manifest, ancient European beekeepers had been so successful in domesticating the honeybee that they extirpated all the truly wild bees that were inter-fertile with their own. (And of course they only brought "good" bees to the Americas.) They then rested on their laurels, not worrying too much about having to keep up selective pressure against fierceness.
Then those breeders found some compatible wild bees in Africa, and suddenly the fierce genes got re-introduced into the equation. Now beekeepers need to exercise more control over which queens are ruling their particular hives. So did the ancient beekeepers, but their suffering of a comparable situation has been forgotten. Killerbees aren't an unnatural disaster, they are a partial return to an undesirable natural state.
it seems like "good" aligned areas are going towards some sort of sappy 4-year-old-girl's sunday morning cartoon version of "good".
[WEBBER:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:HONEY] Hell, isn't spider web material in the raws? Couldn't you have add:Code: [Select][WEBBER:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:HONEY]
to something?
Basically from the "Consequences of selection" paragraph on Wikipedia's killer bee page. The rest is reasonable inference.Killerbees aren't an unnatural disaster, they are a partial return to an undesirable natural state.Good read, thanks. Got a link to a source?
Especially with all the possibilities for unintended perversions of that cartoonish goodness.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qvMlY_SJ9c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qvMlY_SJ9c)
What about bees attacking horses/unicorns/pegasus?
Flaede: "So they'd leave blobs of honey goo everywhere?"
In RL, bees make and eat honey inside the hive. A teaspoon of honey is the life-work of a dozen bees, and they store it very carefully. Near a bee-yard, there isn't honey on anything for very long.
Flaede: "So they'd leave blobs of honey goo everywhere?"I think we were more speaking to the candyland 'good' areas and their floating bear/bee fairies with honey wands.
In RL, bees make and eat honey inside the hive. A teaspoon of honey is the life-work of a dozen bees, and they store it very carefully. Near a bee-yard, there isn't honey on anything for very long.
Quote from: Buzzing_
Beard link=topic=77736.msg2024689#msg2024689 date=1298784546Flaede: "So they'd leave blobs of honey goo everywhere?"I think we were more speaking to the candyland 'good' areas and their floating bear/bee fairies with honey wands.
In RL, bees make and eat honey inside the hive. A teaspoon of honey is the life-work of a dozen bees, and they store it very carefully. Near a bee-yard, there isn't honey on anything for very long.
I'm WAY more interested in the evil honey though...
Well, the LEAST malignant version would be to have it count as alcohol rawQuote from: Buzzing_
Beard link=topic=77736.msg2024689#msg2024689 date=1298784546Flaede: "So they'd leave blobs of honey goo everywhere?"I think we were more speaking to the candyland 'good' areas and their floating bear/bee fairies with honey wands.
In RL, bees make and eat honey inside the hive. A teaspoon of honey is the life-work of a dozen bees, and they store it very carefully. Near a bee-yard, there isn't honey on anything for very long.
I'm WAY more interested in the evil honey though...
Made from the tears of evil eyeball turf mixed with the slime of wigglywormgrass.
What would the status of these dwarves be?The Dwarves would be alive. The bees would live in their beards, and drink all the booze whenever they tried to drink. Their venom would cause permanent defoliation. So if you tried to remove them they sting you bald.
Would they become undead... ZOM-BEES!? (I'm so clever)
or would they be, you know... dead?
Honey effects from nectar consumed sounds... like a lot of work to program.Nah its just a matter of saying honey.syndrome = beehive.preferredplant.syndrome.
Honey effects from nectar consumed sounds... like a lot of work to program.Nah its just a matter of saying honey.syndrome = beehive.preferredplant.syndrome.
I think that the only problem is that honey is going to be made with hundreds of individual wildflowers that the bees visit. You'd need to have a way of "diluting" syndromes. One poisonous flower among hundreds of normal flowers should create a minimal effect.
I think that the only problem is that honey is going to be made with hundreds of individual wildflowers that the bees visit. You'd need to have a way of "diluting" syndromes. One poisonous flower among hundreds of normal flowers should create a minimal effect.
I think that BB already said that the bees will stick to *one* type of flower based on what's preferred & abundant. So they just need to make "$flower_name honey" and have that inherit whatever syndromes it should from $flower_name.
Honey Fluid: Ability for honey to flow and be pumped around as a fluid? Sticky traps!
Works for me...
How would you micro it to get the weird stuff?
Works for me...
How would you micro it to get the weird stuff?
I assume you'd build the hive in a field of the stuff & try to destroy competing nearby plants.
Granite26: "How would you micro it to get the weird stuff?"
Uristocrat: "I assume you'd build the hive in a field of the stuff & try to destroy competing nearby plants."
Because nectar is a depletable resource (flowers take a few hours to refill), you might also be able to get the honey you want through competition.
For example, suppose there are two kinds of flowers near your fort. With just one hive, the honey will all come from the bee's favorite flower. But if you build another hive, the new bees might choose the second flower for its more available nectar.
That's kinda awesome...
hopefully nectar won't be tracked, either.
I don't think underground bees would be a good idea, since I think that there shouldn't be an underground alternative to all above ground things.
Also yeah not everything above ground needs to be present below ground. It is crazy enough having super efficiant underground crops that are supperior to above ground crops.
Also yeah not everything above ground needs to be present below ground. It is crazy enough having super efficiant underground crops that are supperior to above ground crops.
That can be changed. Currently, underground crops are just completely unexplained magic. There can be limits and explanations put in, open the spoiler on this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76007.msg2019450#msg2019450).
re: crops, I like how Deon's Genesis mod has their grow-times lengthened considerably. That was a start to evening things out.
I don't think that bees should be underground.
Bees, by their very nature require pollen, which fungi don't have. So therefore they can't get their food underground.
That's the science reason.
Gameplay wise, I don't think that there should be an underground alternative for everything that's above ground. I like it how currently your bee hives have to be above ground, so that there is actually at least some use in having access to the outside world.
I don't think that bees should be underground.
Bees, by their very nature require pollen, which fungi don't have. So therefore they can't get their food underground.
That's the science reason.
Gameplay wise, I don't think that there should be an underground alternative for everything that's above ground. I like it how currently your bee hives have to be above ground, so that there is actually at least some use in having access to the outside world.
I agree that bees shouldn't be able to forage below ground. But I don't have a problem with hives being located there, so long as they have access to the surface. And bees ought to be able to go through grates and bars, so I see nothing wrong with building the hive underground, channeling out the square(s) above the hive, then building floor bars or grates over that to give them access to the surface, or things like that.
I don't think that bees should be underground.
Bees, by their very nature require pollen, which fungi don't have. So therefore they can't get their food underground.
That's the science reason.
Gameplay wise, I don't think that there should be an underground alternative for everything that's above ground. I like it how currently your bee hives have to be above ground, so that there is actually at least some use in having access to the outside world.
NW_Kohaku: "...to attract some kind of bee or other insect that would visit and pollenate multiple underground
flowering plants."
or mammal (http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/pictures/birds_bees_bats_2.jpg)
NW_Kohaku: "...to attract some kind of bee or other insect that would visit and pollenate multiple underground
flowering plants."
or mammal (http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/pictures/birds_bees_bats_2.jpg)
A bat colony for pollination underground sounds fantastic... I have to go put that in...
What about Tooth fairies in good regions that fly around collecting body parts/contaminents and making gold? Either leaving a coin or crushing the 'hive' to squeeze it out?
Bats and bees don't usually get along well (sometimes at dusk, bats will gather to hunt at beehives). Flower-pollinating nectar-bats are an exception though; they only eat nectar and pollen (just like bees).
Bat poop isn't really my bailiwick, but can you get fertiliser-quality guano from bats that don't eat insects?
There are two distinct types of bat guano, that which is deposited by insect eating bats and that which is deposited by fruit eating bats. Insect eating bats tend to produce high nitrogen guano which promotes strong plant growth. Fruit bats tend to produce high phosphorus guano which promotes budding and flowering. All guano will include trace elements and highly beneficial micro-organisms.
Flaede: "There are two distinct types of bat guano, that which is deposited by insect eating bats and that which isYep. And they have distinctly different guano, apparently.
deposited by fruit eating bats."
I think fruit-bats and nectar-bats are two different kinds of bats.
Flaede: "There are two distinct types of bat guano, that which is deposited by insect eating bats and that which isYep. And they have distinctly different guano, apparently.
deposited by fruit eating bats."
I think fruit-bats and nectar-bats are two different kinds of bats.
Insect: high nitrogen
fruit: high phosphorous.
Yay poop! So. yeah. Potash is more of the contributing nitrogen type fertilizer, right?
Flaede: "There are two distinct types of bat guano, that which is deposited by insect eating bats and that which isYep. And they have distinctly different guano, apparently.
deposited by fruit eating bats."
I think fruit-bats and nectar-bats are two different kinds of bats.
Insect: high nitrogen
fruit: high phosphorous.
Yay poop! So. yeah. Potash is more of the contributing nitrogen type fertilizer, right?
I wonder if that means that the insect guano should be more explosive and the fruit guano should burn hotter? Hmm...
EDIT: And maybe it could be used as fuel, too? I wonder.
"That's the most intelligent behavior I can think of in that situation"
As for being unridable, no one's told that to the varoa mite
Neonivek: "There is a difference between instinct, even complex instinct, and intelligence."
Maybe so, but this isn't a thread about the Chinese room problem. Let's leave the intelligence question alone for now.
Well, if they're capable of the task, does it really matter if they understand what they're doing? A car doesn't understand why it's driving, but it gets you there okay. Sadly, I don't have a giant bee to test my rideability-hypothesis on.
You could set up a kind of messenger service with giant bees fairly easilly. Just provide sugar water at where you want them to go, and have a mechanical bee that does the dance at the hive/corral. Bees would fly out with your messages to the destination, feed, and bring back the messages from there.
ikkonoishi: "You could set up a kind of messenger service with giant bees fairly easilly."
Messenger bees are a great idea, they would return to their hive and could have some distinctive marking applied to them so they're easier to spot (not sure if being giant helps with this though).
RED-BEES = GOBLINS
Flaede: "being giant means the bees can carry larger messages, doesn't it?"
Fair enough.
Detached stingers might make good arrow heads too.
And if you down a giant bumblebee, you've got a nice supply of fluffy warm bumble-fuzz (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/Smileys/aaron/grin.gif).
Flaede: "#1) sting->die mechanics for large nonvermin creatures."
Bumblebees, wasps, and giant versions of honeybees should be able to sting repeatedly.
Regular honeybees can have problems because their sting-barbs get stuck in mammal skin; the barbs can be worked back and forth and help the stinger saw its way into enemy insects (mammals are a "new" predator for bees).
A queen honeybee has a long and smooth stinger/egg-tube that could allow her to sting multiple times if she wanted to. A drone will die after "stinging", but that sting is reserved for queens-only. If the victim of a sting doesn't have thick, barb-snagging skin, even a worker honeybee can sting them over and over. For example, a bee won't automatically die if it stings another insect (or a squirrel, I've heard).
Flaede: "#1) sting->die mechanics for large nonvermin creatures."
Bumblebees, wasps, and giant versions of honeybees should be able to sting repeatedly.
We have developed basic computers using nothing but large tracts of land, a water source, and a mountains worth of mechanisms. Mechanical bees would merely require more of each.You could set up a kind of messenger service with giant bees fairly easilly. Just provide sugar water at where you want them to go, and have a mechanical bee that does the dance at the hive/corral. Bees would fly out with your messages to the destination, feed, and bring back the messages from there.
I think clockwork bees are a little beyond "mechanism" magic.
unfortunately, 2011 is after the 1400s cutoff (http://backyardbrains.com/news/?p=647)
Are the HIVE tags generic enough to allow different hive types for different animals?
2nd Place: Varietal HoneysI just started making mead. Honey tastes a lot different in meads than it does on other things it seems. Orange-blossom honey is popular. Clover honey is good when mixed with fruits making the mead a melomel.
(some of which may trace their nectar-source to plants which only grow on the surface)
+colour (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/images/poster%20156/Slide10.jpg) (light to dark)
+taste (mild to potent, sweet to bitter)
+low to high rarity (e.g. sage blooms every 2-3 years, kurinji once every 12 years)
+varietal honeys (http://www.gotmead.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1944&Itemid=14) could create varietal meads
+crystallization speed (immediate to never)
+healing effects (prevent infection, heal burns and wounds)
+toxic effects (none to severe)
On average, it takes about two million flower visits (the life-work of about 250 bees) to make one pound of honey.
- Using the Q menu on a hive should tell you whether or not they currently have a colony in them. You can currently find out if a hive has honey through the View Items in Buildings menu, but it's not as convenient as also showing that status in the Q menu.
- Installing a colony in a different hive should be faster. Right now, a dabbling beekeeper is slow enough at it that they rarely succeed before they get too tired, hungry and thirsty to do it even once. It shouldn't take an in-game month to move a hive, even for a dabbling beekeeper.
- It seems that beekeepers will always wait to split a colony as long as you have colonies with living bee populations, whether or not those colonies are ready to be split. I think beekeepers should prefer to split from wild colonies so that you can press more of your own hives, instead of having to keep a lot of hives in reserve for splitting.
- Bees aren't stinging people correctly. They seem to occasionally sting anyone who walks past their hive, randomly. Normally, bees sting the hell out anyone who messes with their hive, and they mostly leave everyone else alone. Those dabbling beekeepers should be suffering one sting after another.
- Honey and mead should be more valuable. Right now, both of them are worth 1☼. Dwarven syrup, for comparison, is worth 20☼. Honey should be worth at least 10☼ and maybe as much as 40☼. Mead should be worth anywhere from 2☼ to 8☼, since you get a stack of 5 mead for each unit of honey.
Assuming 1400's era thinking, dwarves probably wouldn't have called them queens
Plus there are all the modern metal and stone names.
In a similar vien as not killing women in medieval games just because they voiced a strong oppinion.