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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: thebigJ_A on October 11, 2010, 10:24:00 pm

Title: wooden shields
Post by: thebigJ_A on October 11, 2010, 10:24:00 pm
Hey all.

I was just wondering. Wooden shields, are they any good? Or are they like the wooden training weapons? I tried the wiki, but it only talks about metal and leather.

I mean, in real life, the majority of shields were made of wood (or at least wood reinforced with metal). My metal industry is pitiful at due to lack of workers (for some reason, every frickin migrant wave I get is almost half kids; I didn't realize I was playing Oregon Trail!). Being able to make shields for my dorfs out of wood would be a big help.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: LealNightrunner on October 11, 2010, 10:29:10 pm
Wood I believe is the most inferior material for both weapons and armor.  Pick the densest wood you can find and go for it *shrug*.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: JoRo on October 11, 2010, 11:05:10 pm
As near as I can tell, shield material doesn't matter because attacks blocked by the shield are completely blocked and won't go through an inferior material like a strike against armor.  It's possible that material changes the chance to block, but I never use anything but wooden shields and I haven't noticed any anomalies.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: slothen on October 11, 2010, 11:10:14 pm
you can test this for yourself in arena mode.  I'm not sure how a wood shield would compare to no shield since I don't know exactly how blocking works, but based simply on the properties of wood as any other armor, it will be pierced by metal weapons about 98% of the time, and at best would only provide modest protection against other wooden weapons and maybe some medium-sized creatures.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: JoRo on October 11, 2010, 11:23:41 pm
Quick test in arena, one grandmaster shield user with a featherwood shield against an unskilled opponent with a spoiler longsword.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's like 30 blocks before the shield user got tagged.  Using fresh fighters and a shield of the same material as the sword, it took slightly longer before the first stab got past the shield but with a sample size of two that could mean anything.  This time around, for instance, the sword user got bashed in the hand a few ticks in so that may have slowed him down. 

If material mattered, the sword would have gone through the wooden shield like it wasn't there.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: Kobold Troubadour on October 11, 2010, 11:28:38 pm
It seems that shield material is irrelevant...as as of now they are impenetrable/unbreakable. Although bucklers still have a lower block chance than shields I think...but I guess better quality stone/metal shields are still better for bashing than wooden ones (specially silver?).
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: LealNightrunner on October 11, 2010, 11:45:22 pm
While it may be the case the material doesn't matter for blocking, I'm willing to bet it certainly does matter if you're stuck bashing.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: thebigJ_A on October 11, 2010, 11:49:36 pm
Thanks, JoRo. That's what I wanted to hear!

So, wood shields work great for defense, not so much as weapons. Since I'm supplying proper weapons to my lil guys, that's a non-issue.
I'm assuming shields also add to your overall armor, so it helps to use better materials in that respect, but I'm still struggling just to equip everyone in iron, so as long as the wood shields block properly, I'm happy.

What with bucklers being worse, what's the point of them? Why would I ever build a buckler instead of a shield?
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: candylord on October 12, 2010, 02:15:34 am
I think, don't quote me on this, but I think material in shields works similarly to quality, that is, a better shield will give you a better bonus to your block roll
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: rephikul on October 12, 2010, 03:24:31 am
Side question: is there a skill that improve shield bash and does shield bash increase any skills?
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: candylord on October 12, 2010, 03:28:17 am
Logically?
Shield user would make bashing more effective
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: RenoFox on October 12, 2010, 06:05:29 am
Quote from: rephikul on October 12, 2010, 03:24:31 am
Side question: is there a skill that improve shield bash and does shield bash increase any skills?

When my underequipped military trains with shields but no weapons, they raise their "Misc. Object User" skill. I'd guess that includes bashing with anything that isn't a weapon.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: Funtimes on October 12, 2010, 06:36:01 am
Quote from: thebigJ_A on October 11, 2010, 11:49:36 pm
What with bucklers being worse, what's the point of them? Why would I ever build a buckler instead of a shield?

2 handed weapon + buckler.

or 1 handed weapon + shield.

Important for shootydorfs.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: rephikul on October 12, 2010, 06:38:21 am
Quote from: Funtimes on October 12, 2010, 06:36:01 am
Quote from: thebigJ_A on October 11, 2010, 11:49:36 pm
What with bucklers being worse, what's the point of them? Why would I ever build a buckler instead of a shield?

2 handed weapon + buckler.

or 1 handed weapon + shield.

Important for shootydorfs.
What's the difference would that make? Does markdorf refuse to pick up crossbow or shield if i've assigned them that 2?
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: Zaik on October 12, 2010, 06:45:24 am
Quote from: rephikul on October 12, 2010, 06:38:21 am
Quote from: Funtimes on October 12, 2010, 06:36:01 am
Quote from: thebigJ_A on October 11, 2010, 11:49:36 pm
What with bucklers being worse, what's the point of them? Why would I ever build a buckler instead of a shield?

2 handed weapon + buckler.

or 1 handed weapon + shield.

Important for shootydorfs.
What's the difference would that make? Does markdorf refuse to pick up crossbow or shield if i've assigned them that 2?

Marksdwarves can wear shields and shoot just fine. I thought the same thing until i actually said to hell with it and tried it.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: Funtimes on October 12, 2010, 07:03:44 am
Hrm, 40d throwback thoughts.


Time to play around with the arena then.
Also, equip all your dwarfs with 2 shields.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: Zaik on October 12, 2010, 07:05:36 am
Quote from: Funtimes on October 12, 2010, 07:03:44 am
Hrm, 40d throwback thoughts.


Time to play around with the arena then.
Also, equip all your dwarfs with 2 shields.

Legendary misc object users = win
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: thebigJ_A on October 12, 2010, 09:37:02 pm
They can carry two shields and a weapon?

Or do they carry one on their back that protects them, like in Mount & Blade? That'd be sweet.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: LealNightrunner on October 12, 2010, 09:56:17 pm
I just staged a pitched 50 on 50 battle, all cotton candy armor, iron spears, and feather wood shields on one end and steel shields on the other.  Identical skills (Competent fighter/armor/shield/spear).

Thirty-nine dwarves survived on the steel end.  All feather woods were slain.

EDIT: There's a fair deal of moderate and major wounds on the steel end though.  At least 3 will bleed out shortly.

EDIT2: Curiously a large number of them are missing left hands and nothing else but moderate wounds.  They were all left handed so the shield was on the right, but both hands should've been protected by a cotton candy gauntlet, and iron spears should have a bit of difficulty there....

EDIT3: Apparently I have to spawn 2x gauntlet in the item list, no wonder so many people were losing hands and feet.  Incidentally this would explain a lot, because everyone was losing their weapon hand... and as I said earlier, higher shield quality = higher bash damage.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: Lord Aldrich on October 12, 2010, 10:13:08 pm
From the raws.

Code: [Select]
item_shield

[OBJECT:ITEM]

[ITEM_SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_SHIELD]
[NAME:shield:shields]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[BLOCKCHANCE:20]
[UPSTEP:2]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]

[ITEM_SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_BUCKLER]
[NAME:buckler:bucklers]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[BLOCKCHANCE:10]
[UPSTEP:1]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
Block chance is coded into the shield type. Material is most likely has no effect on block chance. More interesting is the fact that shields have an upstep, which implies that they could act as passive armor as well. In which case material would matter very much. Though, I can't remember ever seeing "the strike glances off of Dwarf 1's steel shield" or similar. Can anyone else?
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: Zaik on October 12, 2010, 11:59:37 pm
Quote from: Lord Aldrich on October 12, 2010, 10:13:08 pm
From the raws.

Code: [Select]
item_shield

[OBJECT:ITEM]

[ITEM_SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_SHIELD]
[NAME:shield:shields]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[BLOCKCHANCE:20]
[UPSTEP:2]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]

[ITEM_SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_BUCKLER]
[NAME:buckler:bucklers]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[BLOCKCHANCE:10]
[UPSTEP:1]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
Block chance is coded into the shield type. Material is most likely has no effect on block chance. More interesting is the fact that shields have an upstep, which implies that they could act as passive armor as well. In which case material would matter very much. Though, I can't remember ever seeing "the strike glances off of Dwarf 1's steel shield" or similar. Can anyone else?

I've never seen it either, always get the mail shirt or gauntlets.
Title: Re: wooden shields
Post by: Encased in burning magma on October 13, 2010, 02:07:38 am
Quote from: Zaik on October 12, 2010, 07:05:36 am
Quote from: Funtimes on October 12, 2010, 07:03:44 am
Hrm, 40d throwback thoughts.


Time to play around with the arena then.
Also, equip all your dwarfs with 2 shields.

Legendary misc object users = win

One of my dwarves liked shields. When I told him to take his favorite melee weapon, he just took a second shield.
Fuck you, I replied, and told him to go naked but for every shield he could carry. Then I sent him to slaughter the cavern life. He eventually died to jabberer + voracious crawler + huge pack of crundles. Serves him right.