Post by: Leafsnail on December 31, 2013, 10:01:23 am
- Discussing proposed open setups and individual roles/mechanics
- Finding people to privately review closed/bastard setups
Spoiler: Setup Definitions (click to show/hide)
Some tips for setup design:
- If you're making an open setup, try and imagine what would happen if everyone agreed to claim their role on day one. Can the cop stay alive and clear everyone? Are there so many unique roles that the mafia can't blend in? Remember that an uncontested claim in an open setup is usually a confirmed townie.
- Unless your setup is very strange a significant majority of players should be town. Having an abundance of neutral third parties makes it very hard for town to win, and can also make the daygame sluggish.
- Try not to have the balance of your setup rest too heavily on individual players. Ask yourself what would happen if certain roles died on the first day or night - does the setup fall apart?
- Be wary of including methods of changing win conditions outside of bastard games. Players often don't like it because it means all the work they did up to that point was useless.
Old thread: [DISCUSSION] Mafia Gametypes: Hash 'em out here! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=44314.0)
Discord Server with Game Design channel: Meph's Mafia Discord (https://discord.gg/JBt9BYufaM)
Post by: Leafsnail on December 31, 2013, 10:15:17 am
Quantum Mafia!I like the meta-players interpretation, that makes the game a lot clearer. A few points:
The Meta-Scenario:
Even as you read this, in an infinite number of parallel worlds, an infinite number of players are reading a thread more or less like this one. In each of those worlds, the players will be playing a very simple Mafia game. Their rules will be as follows:QuotePlayers are either Town or Corrupt; there are no Independents.
The Townies win when they have lynched all the Corrupt.
The Corrupt win when they are equal or superior in number to the Townies.
Players, whether Town or Corrupt, do *not* have to survive to win. Townies, living or dead, win when the Town wins. The Corrupt, living or dead, win when the Corrupt win.
Days last 24 hours, and begin at 20:00 server.
Every day, all living players must vote to lynch one of their number. Voting is mandatory. If a player has not voted by the end of the day, he is deemed to have voted for himself.
The player with the most votes will be lynched. A majority is not necessary. The dice will decide any ties.
Nights last 24 hours, and begin at 20:00 server. Players may not post to the thread at night.
Every night, the Godfather must send that night's kill target to the GM.
If the Godfather is lynched, another one of the Corrupt becomes the Godfather.
The Corrupt may not kill one of their own.
Every night, all potential Investigators must send their night's Investigation targets to the GM.
There are no powers other than alignment Investigators. However, all Townies believe themselves to be alignment Investigators until one of their conclusions is proven wrong (think *Clue*). One of the Townies is actually an alignment Investigator whose conclusions are always correct.
All the other Townies receive random results each night until one of their random results is proven wrong.
A dead player may make a single death post to the thread. He or she may not otherwise communicate with other players.
As metaplayers in the Quantum Mafia metagame, an abstraction of all of those hundreds of games, you will follow all the rules of those basic games, except that you may post to our metathread whenever you like.
Game Mechanics:
Before the start of each Day, each Metaplayer is PM'D his/her current Corrupt/Town percentage.
At the start of the game, all Metaplayers will have the same chance of being Town or of being Corrupt, and all Metaplayers will believe themselves to be Investigators. Although this game is being played in hundreds of parallel worlds, we will assume that each player makes the same choice of lynch vote, and, if applicable, the same choice of night kill or Investigation target, in each of those hundreds of worlds. So you only need to send me one lynch vote each day and, if applicable, one night-kill vote or Investigation target per night.
Night kills only take effect when the Godfather is lynched. All players killed by the Godfather immediately become 100% dead and out of the game, and they stand revealed at that time as 100% Town, since the Corrupt cannot kill their own. Whenever a Metaplayer is determined to be Corrupt, he or she *will* prove to be the Godfather. (The uncertainty about that is only a feature of the basic game, not the Metagame.)
Lynchings take effect at once. A player who has been lynched is 100% dead and out of the game.
If the true Investigator is killed, then he or she is revealed in death as the true Investigator and all of his or her conclusions become true. There is only One True Investigator; once he/she is dead, that's it for Investigation.
Quantum ghosts (players actually night-killed earlier, but not yet known to be dead) may behave as though they were alive until they are determined to be 100% dead. (What, you've never heard of entire graveyards voting?)
- The mafia should probably have specified ranks so it's clear what the hierarchy is. Like how you have an Alpha/Beta/Gamma werewolf.
- Just to be clear, the first player proved to be corrupt in the meta-game definitely becomes the godfather, even if there's still a chance of him not being one? That seems a bit odd to me.
- As far as I can tell, you're not resolving deaths retroactively. That is, when someone becomes confirmed to be 100% dead, they die now rather than at the point they would have died. Is that correct? IIRC there are some paradoxes that can arise from this.
Post by: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 11:29:57 am
I like the meta-players interpretation, that makes the game a lot clearer. A few points:
- The mafia should probably have specified ranks so it's clear what the hierarchy is. Like how you have an Alpha/Beta/Gamma werewolf.
Since the mafia isn't predetermined, that's not really viable. I'll explain.
Quote
- Just to be clear, the first player proved to be corrupt in the meta-game definitely becomes the godfather, even if there's still a chance of him not being one? That seems a bit odd to me.
No. As each player is lynched, a check is made against their Corrupt/Town percentage. For example, Lynchee McScumington has a Corrupt/Town ratio of 45/55, meaning that in 45% of existing world-lines, he's Corrupt. He gets lynched, and the mod rolls d100 against him. Any roll 1-45 collapses the meta-worlds down only to those where he is Corrupt; any in which he's Town are non-viable and eliminated. At that point, he's the Godfather in those world-lines, and any kill he ordered previously takes immediate effect.
Those players that he'd ordered killed on previous nights have been playing as quantum ghosts, alive in some worlds, dead in others. Once their killer rolls as Corrupt, any in which they were alive spontaneously cease to exist at that moment. Schrödinger's Box has been opened, and the cat is now no longer stateless; the observation collapses the quantum waveform to a known. And anyone that ordered him night killed that are still alive in the meta-game resolve as
Once that case is resolved, the game progresses on a reduced world-line quantum state, and the Godfather, now dead, must be replaced. His replacement resolves the next time a lynch is determined by the dice to come up Corrupt.
Conversely, let's say the mod rolls 46-100 for Lynchee up there. That's Town for him, so all the world-lines in which he's Corrupt cease to exist in the meta-game. Anyone he night-killed stays alive, but isn't confirmed as anything; those meta-worlds stay in play.
Eventually, the game resolves down to one state. At that point, and only at that point, are all living players 100% Corrupt or Town, and it finishes as a vanilla mafia game.
There's a large element of luck to it, but player actions can influence strongly which direction their trend goes until the whole quantum state collapses.
Post by: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 11:31:02 am
Post by: Mephansteras on December 31, 2013, 11:47:42 am
Post by: zombie urist on January 02, 2014, 02:33:35 pm
Concerns from the previous draft
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Concept:
A player wins if they successfully kill another player and gets away with it. Players find coins through roleplaying to purchase skills. These skills include kills, which if done properly will allow one to win or tracks/blocks/cops which supplement scumhunting to foil these culprits.
Background story:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Gameplay:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Details:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'll make another post when that time comes.Post by: Elephant Parade on January 11, 2014, 11:43:52 pm
Would it be possible for me to run it?
Edit: This might belong in the Games Threshold thread.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 12, 2014, 12:05:32 am
Once you do run the Bastard, I also recommend working with someone experienced with set-ups to make sure your idea is sound and to get the details balanced.
Post by: Elephant Parade on January 12, 2014, 12:10:20 am
I really wouldn't suggest a Bastard game for your first run. They can be tricky to do properly and usually require some extra work. Best to get the logistics of running a game down properly before you try one.Ah. This one probably wouldn't require too much work, but I still need to figure out a few things.
Once you do run the Bastard, I also recommend working with someone experienced with set-ups to make sure your idea is sound and to get the details balanced.
As for the idea being sound, could I PM you the details?
Post by: mastahcheese on January 12, 2014, 12:39:59 am
I don't think I'd be able to run it, even if I did have the experience.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 12, 2014, 01:06:33 am
Note that I have the Flu right now, so it might be a few days before I have the brain cells available to review it, though.
Post by: webadict on January 15, 2014, 04:52:37 pm
Post by: makeinu on January 19, 2014, 12:53:15 am
Post by: zombie urist on January 20, 2014, 06:03:27 pm
Premise: An elf has heard some of Santa's reindeer are planning an rebellion! The loyal reindeer must weed out the traitors and save Christmas!
Setup: 1 person will be Rudolph, others will be the remaining 8 reindeer. Everyone will know everyone's names
There is a 50% chance Rudolph is scum. If he is scum and is lynched, town will immediately win. If he isn't scum and is lynched, town will immediately lose. There will be another mafia randomly selected from the other 8.
Post by: mastahcheese on January 20, 2014, 06:13:55 pm
Reindeer MafiaI approve of this idea.
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 20, 2014, 06:27:25 pm
Reindeer Mafia
Premise: An elf has heard some of Santa's reindeer are planning an rebellion! The loyal reindeer must weed out the traitors and save Christmas!
Setup: 1 person will be Rudolph, others will be the remaining 8 reindeer. Everyone will know everyone's names
There is a 50% chance Rudolph is scum. If he is scum and is lynched, town will immediately win. If he isn't scum and is lynched, town will immediately lose. There will be another mafia randomly selected from the other 8.
Just mix that and makeinu's idea for quantum reindeer mafia.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 20, 2014, 09:52:51 pm
Post by: zombie urist on January 23, 2014, 08:12:31 pm
I actually want to run this mafia maybe after the next set is complete.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 23, 2014, 08:15:47 pm
Post by: Persus13 on January 24, 2014, 10:58:20 pm
Either changing the player number to 13 or lowering the number of total confederates to 2.
The Ugly will survive a lynch as long as the Good is still alive (movie reference)
Any suggestions?
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 30, 2014, 10:33:39 pm
Post by: mastahcheese on January 30, 2014, 10:45:57 pm
Post by: webadict on January 31, 2014, 09:38:09 am
Post by: Shakerag on January 31, 2014, 10:48:15 am
and at the end, the wall of flesh killing everyoneFUCK YOU BOOKTHRAS
... sorry, it's a reflex.
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 31, 2014, 11:14:53 am
I have an idea for one, including written up fluff and everything, but I'm not experienced enough, probably, to run it yet.
Post by: Shakerag on January 31, 2014, 12:19:14 pm
Has anyone ever run a dwarf fortress flavored mafia, and how did it go?
I have an idea for one, including written up fluff and everything, but I'm not experienced enough, probably, to run it yet.
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34942.msg534327#msg534327), and you can search for the other three.
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 31, 2014, 12:26:47 pm
Thanks! I have mine set up slightly differently from that, but it'll be interesting to see how the set-up of that one works.Has anyone ever run a dwarf fortress flavored mafia, and how did it go?
I have an idea for one, including written up fluff and everything, but I'm not experienced enough, probably, to run it yet.
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34942.msg534327#msg534327), and you can search for the other three.
Post by: webadict on January 31, 2014, 01:11:49 pm
Post by: zombie urist on February 01, 2014, 03:44:38 pm
Premise: Foreign bees have entered the hive! Protect the honey and the queen!
Setup: All townies can sting. Mafia can't. Day ends when someone gets stung. The stinger and the stung both die and flip. Mafia win when they equal town. Nightless.-
Days are mainly for bookkeeping since there are no nights.
Post by: Elephant Parade on February 01, 2014, 03:46:42 pm
Bumblebee Mafia:That is an amazing idea, but it suffers from a few issues. I think that it's too Town-balanced without modifications.
Premise: Foreign bees have entered the hive! Protect the honey and the queen!
Setup: All townies can sting. Mafia can't. Day ends when someone gets stung. The stinger and the stung both die and flip. Mafia win when they equal town. Nightless.
Post by: webadict on February 01, 2014, 06:19:26 pm
I don't see it. Please explain why you believe it's unbalanced in Town's favor.Bumblebee Mafia:That is an amazing idea, but it suffers from a few issues. I think that it's too Town-balanced without modifications.
Premise: Foreign bees have entered the hive! Protect the honey and the queen!
Setup: All townies can sting. Mafia can't. Day ends when someone gets stung. The stinger and the stung both die and flip. Mafia win when they equal town. Nightless.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 01, 2014, 07:28:28 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on February 01, 2014, 08:27:02 pm
Numbers wise it's the same as having nightkills - there'll be one definitely townie and one possibly not town kill per cycle. The fact that the mafia can't choose who to kill makes it more town-sided in theory, but in practice I think the fact that townies with daykills almost always use them stupidly would wipe out that benefit.Because it gives the town a double lynch. The town can pick who kills who, and if they refuse they're obviously scum.
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 01, 2014, 08:38:35 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on February 01, 2014, 09:12:18 pm
Add the condition that you have to be alive to win. Then people will have a reason not to. This does prevent an interesting puzzle: do you die for the good of the hive?Um, no. Nobody would play if you did that. Forcing people to lose so that their team can win would be incredibly annoying for the losers.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 01, 2014, 10:19:57 pm
Because it gives the town a double lynch. The town can pick who kills who, and if they refuse they're obviously scum.This is true in theory, yes. But I've read a very similar game to this (the only difference was that the mafia were also suicide bombers) and in that townies screwed themselves over by bombing people out of anger.
That's not to say this game shouldn't be run, it sounds fun and the flavour is good.
Post by: mastahcheese on February 01, 2014, 10:38:29 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on February 01, 2014, 11:07:23 pm
It sounds great! It just seems to favour the town a bit.Because it gives the town a double lynch. The town can pick who kills who, and if they refuse they're obviously scum.This is true in theory, yes. But I've read a very similar game to this (the only difference was that the mafia were also suicide bombers) and in that townies screwed themselves over by bombing people out of anger.
That's not to say this game shouldn't be run, it sounds fun and the flavour is good.
Post by: TheDarkStar on February 01, 2014, 11:07:58 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 01, 2014, 11:17:59 pm
In this game I'd probably just use nightless numbers and then add one or two townies to make up for the fact that people invariably do stupid things in daykill heavy variants.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 11, 2014, 09:01:12 pm
Once upon a time there was an aging king. He had but weeks to live, and he feared that a dispute over his successor would tear his kingdom apart. Not knowing where else to turn, he sought the help of a warlock.
"Please!", said the king. "Lend me you magic, so that the argument over my succession may be resolved as quickly as possible".
The king was, of course, a fool. The warlock granted his request.
Roles:
7 townies vs 3 mafia, or 10 townies vs 4 mafia
The mafia does not have a conventional nightkill.
This game is essentially a kingmaker variant. At the start, the mafia are given some time to talk, and they select who the first town King will be. After that their quicktopic is locked.
The King is given 4 days (excluding weekends) to decide who should be the next King. After they've decided, they die, and whoever they chose becomes the new King. If they fail to pick a successor within the time limit the mafia will get to choose the next King. The rules are the same for the next King - they have 4 days to make a decision, and once they've made their decision they die.
If a mafia member becomes King the gamethread will be locked and the mafia quicktopic reopened while the mafia decide who to give the crown to next. The mafia King will, of course, die as soon as they pass the crown on.
The game continues until all members of one faction have been eliminated, or until the outcome of the game is inevitable. Note that, flavour wise, once all members of one faction are dead the crown stops killing people. So if the last surviving townie hands the crown to the last surviving mafia member the mafia member survives, and it's a mafia victory.
A vaguely similar setup called Popcorn (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Popcorn_Mafia) has been run on mafiascum in the past, but in that the mafia never gets a chance to fire back. I'd also like to thank Plessiez from there for calculating how many townies and scum should be in this setup.
Post by: mastahcheese on February 11, 2014, 09:06:08 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on February 11, 2014, 10:14:43 pm
Post by: notquitethere on February 14, 2014, 07:05:13 am
Post by: Leafsnail on February 14, 2014, 08:37:03 pm
I'd probably run the 10 player version and make sure there's a replacement pool (having a lurker king would be bad).
Post by: zombie urist on February 14, 2014, 08:50:34 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 14, 2014, 09:19:32 pm
1. Why is the town informed that a mafia member has become King? The reason is that a kinged mafia no longer has any reason to care about how they appear - they're inevitably going to die and flip mafia anyway. So any daygame that occurs when a mafia member is king would just be a waste of time (I think the correct play for the mafia king would just be to not say anything anyway).
2. Why is the thread locked after the mafia member is announced? Well, if the mafia member has no reason to communicate with the town and will simply be making a decision on their own it's basically a nightphase - the town don't have anything to decide. I guess the town could use the time to help decide the next kill, but I don't particularly want to give them any extra time to decide in an extensionless game. Also I think it would probably be correct play for town to shut up too, discussing their suspicions would mainly just serve to give the mafia more information to decide the kill with.
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 28, 2014, 09:40:46 pm
The game itself is called The Home Front, and it is set in the 1900's. The mechanics of the game are basically the same as normal mafia, no weird lynch mechanics. The mafia equivalent are the protesters, and they have a nightkill. The patriots are the town equivalent in this case, but note that this is more out of historical context of protesters being demonized rather than me passing judgement on them.
The roles:
4 vanilla patriots: win when the protesters have been lynched, no special powers
1 patriot organizer: Inspects the loyalty of players, wins when the protesters have been lynched
1 Protester: scumteam, no powers
1 Protest Organizer: scumteam, can inspect loyalty
1 Military Recruiter: The military recruiter can, once per night, recruit another player into the military. This gives them the soldier status, which makes them turn up "soldier" to any loyalty or role investigations. The powers and alignments of the players do not change. He wins if the game ends with all alive players recruited. If he attempts to recruit the extreme patriot or the extreme protester, however, a firefight ensues and there is a 50-50 chance of either dying. He knows who the police chief is, and the police chief counts as military for the purposes of his wincon.
1 Extreme Patriot: The extreme patriot wants the reluctant citizen and the extreme protester dead, as well as to survive the game. He has a night kill to accomplish this, but loses immediately if he kills a soldier. Despite the name, he is not considered a patriot for the purposes of wincons.
1 Extreme Protester: The extreme protester wants the military recruiter, the eager citizen, and the extreme patriot dead, as well as to survive the game. He has a night kill to accomplish this, but immediately loses if he kills a protester or the reluctant citizen. Despite the name, he is not considered a protester for the purposes of wincons.
1 Reluctant Citizen: The reluctant citizen does not want to go to war, winning if he is not recruited and survives the game.
1 Eager Citizen: The eager citizen would be proud to fight for his country, winning if he is recruited and survives the game.
1 Police Chief: The police chief cannot abide by the actions of the extremists and wants them gone. He can inspect the role of one player per night, and can choose to share the results with the military recruiter via pm (this is the only instance of inter-player pm allowed in the game). He wins if both protesters die and he survives the game. He does not know who the military recruiter is.
the mafia have their own quickchat topic, and the soldiers may have their own quickchat topic depending on what people think.
So: opinions? Suggestions?
Post by: mastahcheese on March 01, 2014, 01:27:23 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 01, 2014, 05:14:21 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 02, 2014, 03:02:59 pm
I strikes me that for the eager/reluctant citizen, winning is probably wholly a matter of luck.hmm... perhaps change them to survivors and have the eager citizen reveal soldier to the police chief's inspections and the reluctant citizen be immune to becoming a soldier?
Post by: notquitethere on March 03, 2014, 02:30:14 am
Post by: Mephansteras on March 03, 2014, 12:21:09 pm
I think it's somewhat an issue with survivor type roles: there's not much they can do it to increase their chances of winning other than not being lynched.
Hmm, what about a Survivor role with a Redirect power? That way at least the player can try to be crafty and redirect someone they think might try to kill them. It's far from a guarantee, but at least you'd feel much less helpless which should improve how much fun the game is.
Post by: notquitethere on March 04, 2014, 06:50:38 am
I guess the thing is, town and scum can still win if they die so they can try to play well without worrying all the time about saving their skin. For a survivor, it's somewhat a matter of chance. Having a redirect helps a little bit. If, due to the set up, a survivor is given more information to work with (and has a disincentive to share) then they might feel more agency over their fate in the game.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 04, 2014, 10:57:36 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 07, 2014, 07:26:34 pm
The mechanics of the game are basically the same as normal mafia, no weird lynch mechanics. The mafia equivalent are the protesters, and they have a nightkill. The patriots are the town equivalent in this case, but note that this is more out of historical context of protesters being demonized rather than me passing judgement on them.
The roles:
5 vanilla patriots: win when the protesters have been lynched, no special powers
1 patriot organizer: Inspects the loyalty of players, wins when the protesters have been lynched
1 Protester: scumteam, no powers
1 Protest Organizer: scumteam, can inspect loyalty
1 Military Recruiter: The military recruiter can, once per night, recruit another player into the military. This gives them the soldier status, which makes them turn up "soldier" to any loyalty or role investigations. The powers and alignments of the players do not change. He wins if the game ends with all alive players recruited. If he attempts to recruit the extreme patriot or the extreme protester, however, a firefight ensues and there is a 50-50 chance of either dying. The foreign spy cannot be recruited, though the military recruiter gets a false positive if he attempts to recruit the spy. He knows who the police chief is, and the police chief counts as military for the purposes of his wincon. He shows patriot to inspects.
1 Foreign Spy: The foreign spy can, as a night action, redirect the first ability targeted at one player to another player. He knows who the protesters are, but cannot speak in the scumchat or use the mafiakill. He is a protester-ally, winning if the protesters win. He shows protester to inspects.
1 Extreme Patriot: The extreme patriot wants the foreign spy and the extreme protester dead. He has a night kill to accomplish this, but loses immediately if he kills a soldier or the military recruiter. He flips patriot to inspects and wins if the game ends in a town win with the foreign spy and extreme protester dead.
1 Extreme Protester: The extreme protester wants the military recruiter and the extreme patriot dead. He has a night kill to accomplish this, but immediately loses if he kills a protester or the foreign spy. He wins if the protesters win and the military recruiter and extreme patriot are dead. He is not a member of the scumteam, and thus cannot use the mafiakill or talk in the quickchat. He does not know the identities of the protesters. He shows protester to inspects.
1 Police Chief: The police chief cannot abide by the actions of the extremists and wants them gone. He can inspect the role of one player per night (vanilla town or protester shows up vanilla, town and protester cops show up cop), and can choose to share the results with the military recruiter via pm (I will send the pm if told to do so). He wins if both extremists and the foreign spy are dead at the end of the game, whether or not he is alive. He does not know who the military recruiter is. He shows patriot to inspects.
the mafia have their own quickchat topic, naturally.
So: opinions? Suggestions?
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 08, 2014, 12:19:24 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 10, 2014, 05:33:34 am
Post by: Persus13 on March 10, 2014, 07:00:55 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 10, 2014, 09:15:33 am
Yes, if those are the surviving players the military recruiter would win.
The game ends when all of the true scum players or all the true town players are dead.
Post by: notquitethere on March 12, 2014, 05:46:50 am
Each player has an Alignment (scum or town) and an Ability. The Alignment stays the same throughout the game, but the player's Ability changes at the start of each day. The list of Abilities is known by all. The assignment of Abilities each day is completely random, but there are some Abilities that only scum can possess. There are no Abilities that only town can possess. Up to two players may possess the same Ability.
Every player has three lives.
Each day, the players vote to see who they'd like removed from the game. Also, each day everyone claims or fakeclaims what Ability they have. If the person who is up for the lynch told the truth about their Ability, they'll only lose one life. If they lied or refused to Claim, they'll lose all remaining lives.
Besides their other Abilities, scum have a nightkill. If the person they choose has told the truth about their Abilities or hasn't claimed at all, that person will lose all their remaining lives. If they've lied about their Abilities, they'll only lose one life.
As such, town who want to avoid being night killed, have an incentive to lie. Scum who want to avoid being lynched, have an incentive to tell the truth (though, the existence of scum-only abilities means they won't always want to tell the truth).
Town all have the additional Day-Ability to stake their lives on a lynch: this makes the lynch completely fatal regardless of whether the person being lynched is telling the truth. If the person lynched wasn't scum, however, the player who made the stake also dies. This allows town to win in LYLO situations against truth-telling scum.
The Abilities aren't all beneficial, and many can be confirmed by other player's night actions. I'm still finalising the list, but it'll be fairly lengthy.
The game proceeds until only town or scum are alive.
What do people reckon?
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 12, 2014, 08:43:58 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 12, 2014, 10:52:08 am
Spoiler: Ability List (click to show/hide)
The abilities are such that fakeclaiming should be plausible for almost any given Ability. (You could claim to Donate when you really have Feast etc.)
Post by: mastahcheese on March 12, 2014, 07:48:40 pm
Post by: Shakerag on March 13, 2014, 10:19:11 am
Ability inspect seems worthless as whatever ability you inspected is almost certainly going to be different the next day. I suppose it could verify a claim on one day, but still seems weak.
I don't really see why you would lie about having Honesty ever.
Having three lives (and several abilities to regain lives) makes me think this game could go on for a very, very long time.
Post by: notquitethere on March 13, 2014, 10:46:02 am
Ability inspects help confirm whether someone was truthfully claiming, and help figure out what their night action was, so it's still pretty useful (not that all abilities have to be useful— getting 'miller' is always a pain).
That's the thing: players can be pretty sure that someone claiming Honesty is telling the truth, which makes them an obvious target for scum at night. A player with three lives and Mirror might want to lie about having honesty if they want to draw the scum kill, for instance.
Players that lie during the day and are lynched, or players that tell the truth and are night killed lose all their lives, just like in regular mafia. I think this might be a better game for a smaller player base (like, 7 players).
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 13, 2014, 10:08:13 pm
Also, if you kill buff someone who uses donate, do they kill themselves?
Post by: notquitethere on March 14, 2014, 03:25:06 am
I'll reword it to 'any ability used by the target that would cause a player to lose a life, causes that player to lose all their lives instead', clearly including donate as well.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 14, 2014, 04:13:18 pm
MEGA CLAIM MAFIAI can see what you're going for here, but
- The massclaim is basically worthless because every townie is going to lie
- The game would be incredibly slow due to the fact that most people would need to die three times
- The mafia would probably lose hard, since a) every townie would have three lives all the time and they sometimes wouldn't and b) investigative abilities would really stack up over the course of the very long game
I like the idea though, if you could think of an incentive other than additional lives it could work.
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 14, 2014, 08:23:28 pm
I have an objection to point one: if the townie lies, then if they would be lynched they would lost immediately.MEGA CLAIM MAFIAI can see what you're going for here, but
- The massclaim is basically worthless because every townie is going to lie
- The game would be incredibly slow due to the fact that most people would need to die three times
- The mafia would probably lose hard, since a) every townie would have three lives all the time and they sometimes wouldn't and b) investigative abilities would really stack up over the course of the very long game
I like the idea though, if you could think of an incentive other than additional lives it could work.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 14, 2014, 08:47:51 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 15, 2014, 04:17:09 pm
Wizard Duel: 4maskwolf edition
Before you ask, yes, I got permission from Mephansteras before doing this.
For those of you who didn't know how wizard duel worked (go read the series of games if you haven't, they are awesome), it was a very different kind of mafia game. The goal of the game was to become the head wizard by being last mage standing, but also to eliminate the scumteam. Every wizard had a set of stats, and your role would either give you stat boosts or side actions (I'll get to that in a second). At the start of the game, after receiving your role, you chose a flavor color for your runes, your magic elemental affinity(I'll get to this in a moment too), and other flavor about your wizard. You had two votes during the day, and the two people who had the most votes at the end of the day would be thrown into the arena to fight one another. Every other player could choose to assist a statistic with an element, the duelists chose the element they were using in the battle, and each player with a side action could choose a target for that action.
Elements were important in the duels for several reasons. Elemental affinity was usually kept a secret, because if your opponent in the duel chose to use the element opposite yours they would inflict double damage, while if they chose yours they would do half damage. Air and earth were opposites, as were water and fire.
There was a scumteam: the dark mages, who had used forbidden magic to enhance their abilities. They had a factional kill during the assist declaration phase, but they had to remember that the main goal was to become high mage by being the last mage standing.
Elements were also tied to assists. An assist to a statistic with its corresponding element was worth +2, while any other assist was +1. If you assisted with that player's element, you doubled the assist, and an opposed element assist gave half bonus, rounded down. Water corresponded to healing, fire to attack, earth to defense, and air to speed.
A normal wizard had the following stats, and the dark mages had +1 to all stats but healing above and beyond this:
Attack: 10
Defense: 10
Speed: 10
Health: 20
Healing: 0
Your role could give you a boost to some or all of these abilities.
There were a few technical rules beyond this, but this is the essence of wizard duel.
Now, about the 4maskwolf edition. The 4maskwolf version has a slightly modified system of playing the game, as follows:
13 players instead of 12.
A role rework.
Celestial mage is no longer a role, but an alignment, similar to dark mage.
The role rework is the most important thing. When you get your role, you may choose a certain number of abilities from the following list:
Spoiler: Long abilities list (click to show/hide)
Magic abilities are selected by the player, the number is determined by your role:
Standard mage: 1 normal
War mage: 1 attack and 1 normal
Battle mage: 1 defense and 1 normal
Time mage: 1 time and 1 normal
Warrior mage: 1 healing and 1 normal
Diviner: 1 divination and 1 normal
Enchanter: 1 enchantment and 1 normal
Alchemist: 1 alchemy and 1 normal
Archmage: 3 normal
There can be multiple of a given type, with standard being the most common. On top of your role, you can also be a dark mage or a celestial mage. Dark mages can select any of their normal magics from the dark magics section and can choose dark as an element, and celestial mages can select any of their normal magics from the celestial magics list and can choose light as an element. There are three dark mages and one celestial mage in a given game. All of the rules for light and dark magic are the same from the original wizard duel games, mainly three and four.
What does everyone think?
Post by: notquitethere on March 16, 2014, 12:21:25 pm
As for Wizard Duel: how did the original Wizard Duel games go, what do you intend to fix with your changes?
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 16, 2014, 12:52:18 pm
Regarding Mega Claim-- on reflection, I think players would just fake claim on the day unless they were up for the lynch, and then truthfully claim the previous day. More consideration needed...The primary problem the wizard duel games had was not the mechanics so much as the town reliance on said mechanics. That, and in the first two games dark mages were too powerful and in the third game there were too many of them.
As for Wizard Duel: how did the original Wizard Duel games go, what do you intend to fix with your changes?
I'm basically just making the system a little more modular and streamlined, to try to prevent the town trying to rely on what roles they get: without a mass claim, even if someone has a role you don't know what their abilities are.
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 16, 2014, 01:07:52 pm
It is a fairly standard mafia game during gameplay, but the catch comes in before the game starts. The mod has a flavor of setting in mind (wizards, middle ages, dwarf fortress, modern day, etc.) and comes up with a list of role archetypes to go with it. For the sake of the mod's sanity, let's go with a 7 player game.
The mod sends out one role archetype to the players along with a preliminary multiple-choice question about the character with it. Let's say, for instance, that the setting was modern day and the archetype was criminal. The question might say something like:
What was your first criminal activity?
A. I stole my neighbor's car
B. I stole a game from the local store
C. I robbed the bank
then, for each answer, the mod has another question prepared. Let's say for example the player answered A:
Why did you choose to steal the car?
A. I wanted to impress my dad.
B. I thought it would be funny
C. It was a really nice car
This can go on for as many iterations of questions as the mod feels like preparing for. At the end of the questions, you get a formal role pm with your ability on it, as determined by your answers.
Of course, this requires a LOT of front-end work by the mod. They have to plan out all of the question trees and what abilities are gotten from each, as well as making sure there is a relative balance between players. Not all of the abilities have to be different, but there should be enough of a difference that the choices the player makes make a difference.
Post by: zombie urist on March 16, 2014, 03:56:37 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 16, 2014, 04:35:55 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on March 16, 2014, 05:29:00 pm
This idea sounds more structured. Not sure if the extra effort is worth it for the GM, though.
Post by: Persus13 on March 17, 2014, 05:18:42 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 17, 2014, 06:04:19 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 17, 2014, 06:11:17 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 17, 2014, 10:00:26 pm
But sure! I'd love to help. (But then I would also love to play in there...)
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 17, 2014, 10:01:20 pm
*points at Mephansteras*There was more to the pm than that, but I think I get what you are saying.
But sure! I'd love to help. (But then I would also love to play in there...)
Mephansteras, do you have the time to help?
Post by: Mephansteras on March 17, 2014, 10:12:57 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 17, 2014, 10:14:05 pm
Not right this moment, although that's mostly because I have a head cold and thinking is tiring. Later this week, perhaps.sounds fine. I need some time to get a few problems worked out anyway, so that works perfectly.
Damn me and writing the flavor before finishing the game design.
Post by: notquitethere on March 21, 2014, 09:19:50 am
Here's the rules as they currently stand:
Spoiler: CYOM 1.4 (click to show/hide)
The major changes from last time is I've removed secondary win-cons, taken out Quick Learner and some of powers related to Unreliability, and I've changed the way Day powers are bought, allowing any power to be made into a day power at the right cost. I've added a bunch of new powers, including Fortune Teller, Curse and Inflate.
A general design goal was to maximise the number of possible combos the players can build. As players have perfect information about the possible powers other players may have, they can build their powers accordingly.
Questions:
- Are the powers priced reasonably? With five points to spend, players can choose to take more powerful powers at the cost of taking flaws, or they can choose cheaper powers and gain more indirect advantages. Does this work out?
- Is there a genuinely unstoppable scum strategy?
- Is there a genuinely unstoppable town strategy?
- What would you build if you were scum or town?
Post by: mastahcheese on March 21, 2014, 06:32:36 pm
Questions:1. We'd have to have a go at it to test it, but at a glance I don't see anything glaring about it.
1- Are the powers priced reasonably? With five points to spend, players can choose to take more powerful powers at the cost of taking flaws, or they can choose cheaper powers and gain more indirect advantages. Does this work out?
2- Is there a genuinely unstoppable scum strategy?
3- Is there a genuinely unstoppable town strategy?
4- What would you build if you were scum or town?
2. Not right off the top of my head, no.
3. Same as three.
4.
Town Build - The Vampire
-1 - Dense
-1 - Hardcore
1 - Bloodthirsty
3 - Free Day Scan
3 - Day Sap
Rob e'rebody. Use massive point gains to become amazing. Maybe take Miller since I'm such a jerk anyways.
Scum Build - The Bribery
-2 - Unable to Vote
-1 - Dense
8 - Day Convert
Someone going after me or my buddies? Convert them in broad daylight, and call them out on the sudden switch, when they get themselves lynched by my orders, we get brownie points with the townies.
Post by: notquitethere on March 21, 2014, 07:06:33 pm
OK, so I decided to do some testing and see if I can come up with some things...
Town
Voodoo Priestess
5 - Day-Fortune Teller
Knows from the beginning of the game what everyone's powers are, so can warn the town if there's a cult scum team or not.
Backstreet Surgeon
4 Free-Protect
4 Prolific
-2 Magnetic
-1 Miller
Can use up to three protects a night, and there's a 50/50 chance he'll target himself each time.
Either
Accursed One
5 - Day-Changeling
-1 - miller
-1 - dense
-1 - Mercenary
-2 - unable to vote
On the first day, they'd swap all roles with someone else who, if they had no points left, would be stuck with the cursed role for the rest of the game.
OK, so it strikes me that making Day abilities is too cheap. Day actions bypass the usual action ordering, making active abilities much more powerful and redirect/block abilities nigh on useless. I've got a few choices:
1. Remove day powers entirely
2. Make day powers more expensive
3. Limit day powers to conversion and killing
4. Only resolve Day actions at the very end of the day
Any thoughts?
Post by: mastahcheese on March 21, 2014, 07:32:41 pm
I think making them more expensive would be better, like give them the same cost as Free- powers, by doubling the power cost, so cheap stuff wouldn't really be a problem, but something god-powerful like a Day-Convert would be nearly impossible.
Post by: TheDarkStar on March 21, 2014, 08:15:14 pm
Or, even better: Start out with three cursed ones (add Scan/Inflate and Hardcore to make it even more useless) and make the best people useless Night 1. Suddenly, the scum team has all the powers that town would pick because the town picked them, and a third of the town now consists of utterly useless roles.
Of course, if it seems like that could be unfun, make Changeling require no cost, even when used with Mercenary.
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 21, 2014, 08:21:52 pm
Post by: mastahcheese on March 21, 2014, 08:30:15 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 21, 2014, 08:38:53 pm
Why?
I'd be the Hardcore Inspector.
> Hardcore (-1)
> Day- Ability/Alignment Cop (+1, +5)
If I'm not correct, this uses up all the first stats.
Or perhaps the Miller Saboteur?
> Sap; Prolific (+2, +4)
> Miller (or Dense. :3) (-1)
Post by: mastahcheese on March 21, 2014, 08:45:42 pm
10 - Prolific Double-Voter
-1 - miller. shows up as scum under inspect (town only)
-2 - unreliable (your powers and autos have a 50% chance of failure. Must have at least one power or auto in order to take this flaw)
-2 - magnetic (your powers have a 50% chance of targeting yourself- must have at least one other-affecting power to take this)
You vote three-four times, which can fail and target yourself.
Find a way to add in Bloodthirsty and Thrill-Seeker and you'll be the most unreliable person there ever was.
Post by: notquitethere on March 21, 2014, 08:48:58 pm
So, Tiruin wouldn't be able to make a day cop straight off the back unless she took a bunch more flaws.
Also, Cheese, you wouldn't be able to take magnetic or unreliable if your only power was double-voter (as it doesn't target others).
Post by: mastahcheese on March 21, 2014, 08:49:57 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 21, 2014, 08:52:06 pm
So, Tiruin wouldn't be able to make a day cop straight off the back unless she took a bunch more flaws.I'll take ALL THE FLAWS MWAHAHAAHAA
Edit the Bloodthirsty point. You do know that people would be lynch-happy for dem points sooner or later and it does break conventional scumhunting law. ;P
You have to admit, unreliable voting would be hilarious.All the votes! Throw them at everyone!
Post by: mastahcheese on March 21, 2014, 08:55:18 pm
Also, +1 with Tiru on the bloodthirsty ability, that would really break the way things are done.
You'd see way to many "Well, he's going to die, may as well get some points off of him" moments. As well as using it as an excuse by scum to vote people.
Post by: notquitethere on March 21, 2014, 09:38:13 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 21, 2014, 09:40:44 pm
Post by: mastahcheese on March 21, 2014, 09:42:15 pm
...How's about let's run it and test it for the moment, unless anyone has any major and minor notes on the stat-point system? :P+1, she makes a good point.
Post by: TheDarkStar on March 21, 2014, 10:40:05 pm
Scum 1: Point Share, hardcore, maybe dense. End total of 4 or 5 leftover points (calling it 4 + 1 for day end)
Scum 2: Cleanse, Changling, Mercenary, Hardcore, Dense with 2 leftover points to be used first for assisting scum #3 and then for giving a useless role to someone.
Scum 3: Convert, Hardcore, Dense, Mercenary, Unable to vote, Unreliable, Magnetic, Kill.
Next time, Scum 3 picks a new thing worth 4 or 5. Some choices:
Prolific if it can be used for kills or converts
Resurrection if it applies to votes
innocent/silent/unstoppable and maybe clear-minded
Sap/Redirect, Block, or Bus
Santa/Innocent
Of course, this requires all the scum to survive.
Post by: notquitethere on March 21, 2014, 11:04:24 pm
Ok, the game is now up! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137283.0)...How's about let's run it and test it for the moment, unless anyone has any major and minor notes on the stat-point system? :P+1, she makes a good point.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 21, 2014, 11:16:01 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 21, 2014, 11:23:05 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 22, 2014, 12:00:21 am
Post by: mastahcheese on March 22, 2014, 12:05:03 am
Post by: Tiruin on March 22, 2014, 12:11:54 am
So I'm asking (here) instead. :)
Post by: mastahcheese on March 22, 2014, 12:14:22 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 22, 2014, 05:38:20 am
Post by: Leafsnail on March 23, 2014, 12:11:45 am
e: actually Fortune Teller makes it basically impossible for scum to falseclaim at all.
Post by: Jack A T on March 23, 2014, 12:22:58 am
Post by: Tack on March 31, 2014, 05:55:07 am
So I wanted to try and make a game based around 14th century feudal japan.
I've got a few ideas for roles which I think of as being pretty interesting, but unfortunately due to my inexperience I worry about making a broken game.
So, if anyone with a few more games under their belt would be willing to help me balance this thing, that would be excellent.
Quote from: Changes to General rules
Just one:
As with extending, a person can choose to commit Honorable Suicide. They will die, but the day will immediately end.
[poss: in addition, any votes you cast before ending your own life will count as two/three] (Could be used by the mafia as a daykill)
[poss: As with your suicide your crimes are absolved, regardless of your alignment you will be revealed as town/neutral] (Only seems to benefit mafia)
Quote from: Town Roles
1. Samurai (modified doctor)
Action: During the night you can choose to protect someone, which will defend them against any hostile actions. However, once you have chosen a person to protect, you are then bonded to them and can only protect that singular person until game end or they die by some other means (lynching, usually).
If you accidentally swear fealty to a ninja, tough luck, you become a scum too- regardless of whom you bond yourself to afterwards..
2. Metsuke (cop)
Action: During the night you can choose to inspect someone. You will be told their alignment, but not any abilities that they may have.
4. Lord (Vanilla Townie)
Quote from: Mafia Roles
1. Ninja (Vanilla Mafia)
2. Oni-Ninja (Modified blocker)
Action: During the night you can choose to terrify someone. This will prevent them from using their ability that night, or casting a vote the next day
[poss: Rather than simply not having their vote counted, the victim themselves must not vote, or the next night they are a free kill for the Mafia/or they die on the spot] (Adds uncertainty)
Quote from: Neutral roles (Can be given to either)
1. Komuso
Passive: If you are inspected or killed, it will be revealed that you were a mendicant monk, however your alignment as Town/Mafia will not be revealed.
[poss: there can be as many as up to 3 Komuso monks in play] (REVEL IN THE UNCERTAINTY)
2. Arquebusier
Action: Once a day, or night, you can make a kill. However, these foreign fire-throwers are anything but silent, and everybody will know that you are the Arquebusier.
[poss= make scum/town only] (Removes element of uncertainty, hinders scum)
[poss= due to massive reloading times, it cannot be used on successive night/day]
[poss= at night, others will be informed of the arquebusier's kill before any other actions are taken, and be given the option to change their actions accordingly] (Role becomes significantly weaker)
[poss= If used at day, it has a ~% chance to miss, and kill another random person] (Becomes stronger for scum)
Any suggestions would be appreciated. But on general principle, does it seem like it would be a fun game type to play?
Post by: Persus13 on March 31, 2014, 09:47:05 am
Post by: Mephansteras on March 31, 2014, 08:02:39 pm
Post by: zombie urist on March 31, 2014, 08:41:11 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on March 31, 2014, 09:01:00 pm
Post by: zombie urist on March 31, 2014, 09:22:53 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on April 05, 2014, 01:35:42 pm
The roles:
5 vanilla patriots: win when the protesters have been lynched, no special powers
1 patriot organizer: Inspects the loyalty of players, wins when the protesters have been lynched
1 Protester: scumteam, no powers
1 Protest Organizer: scumteam, can inspect loyalty
1 Military Recruiter: The military recruiter can, once per night, recruit another player into the military. This gives them the soldier status, which makes them turn up "soldier" to any loyalty or role investigations. The powers and alignments of the players do not change. He wins if the game ends with all alive players recruited and the patriots win. An attempt to recruit an extremist results in a roleblock on both players, preventing any kills as well as nullifying the recruitment, UNLESS the extremist had targeted a kill at the military recruiter, in which case the military recruiter dies. The foreign spy is not recruited, but the military recruiter believes that they are. For ALL purposes, they are a soldier, including inspection. They have a quicktopic to the Police Chief.
1 Foreign Spy: The foreign spy can, as a night action, bus two players, so that all actions used on one go to the other. The users of said actions will know their final target. He is a protester-ally, winning if the protesters win, and knows the identity of the two protesters, but is not himself a protester, so cannot speak in the chat (or even see it) or perform the scumkill. He shows protester to inspects.
1 Extreme Patriot: The extreme patriot wants the foreign spy and the extreme protester dead. He has a night kill to accomplish this, but loses immediately if he kills a soldier. He flips patriot to inspects and wins if the game ends in a town win with the foreign spy and extreme protester dead.
1 Extreme Protester: The extreme protester wants the military recruiter and the extreme patriot dead. He has a night kill to accomplish this, but immediately loses if he kills a protester or the foreign spy. He wins if the protesters win and the military recruiter and extreme patriot are dead. He is not a member of the scumteam, and thus cannot use the mafiakill or talk in the quickchat. He does not know the identities of the protesters. He shows protester to inspects.
1 Police Chief: The police chief cannot abide by the actions of the extremists and wants them gone. He can inspect the role of one player per night (vanilla town or protester shows up vanilla, town and protester cops show up cop). He wins if both extremists and the foreign spy are dead at the end of the game, whether or not he is alive. He does not know who the military recruiter is. He shows patriot to inspects. He has a quicktopic to the military recruiter and is considered a soldier for all purposes EXCEPT the lose condition of the extreme patriot.
the mafia have their own quickchat topic, naturally. The game ends when both protesters or all six patriots have been eliminated, regardless of remaining allies.
So: opinions? Suggestions?
Post by: Tiruin on April 05, 2014, 01:39:33 pm
Looks good enough to run that certain powerroles don't prevent utter winning, and that players = power through words.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 05, 2014, 02:00:24 pm
- The name "Extreme Protester" is confusing considering the fact that he's not actually a protester for some purposes
- The extreme patriot should probably never kill, unless he's aiming at the spy he has no way to know if it will just make him arbitrarily lose
- What results does the police chief get on his targets?
- I don't understand why the military recruiter is pro-protester. The goal of recruiting everyone is already strictly harder than the Police Chief's win condition and he has no real tools to help accomplish it, why make it even more difficult?
Post by: 4maskwolf on April 05, 2014, 02:24:39 pm
Some thoughts:Same with extreme patriot, I suppose, but he is a protester ally.
- The name "Extreme Protester" is confusing considering the fact that he's not actually a protester for some purposes
- The extreme patriot should probably never kill, unless he's aiming at the spy he has no way to know if it will just make him arbitrarily loseBut the same can happen to the extreme protester too. And I forgot to write-up something about that: It is a bus, not a redirect. So it works both ways
- What results does the police chief get on his targets?He gets to see their role in the game. This is partially to better help the military recruiter choose targets.
- I don't understand why the military recruiter is pro-protester. The goal of recruiting everyone is already strictly harder than the Police Chief's win condition and he has no real tools to help accomplish it, why make it even more difficult?LOLZ. I screwed that up. Back to editing.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 05, 2014, 03:20:57 pm
It still seems strange that the Police Chief has an easier win condition and a more powerful role than the Military Recruiter. In fact it seems like the Military Recruiter could easily get into an unwinnable situation very early.
Post by: 4maskwolf on April 05, 2014, 03:24:29 pm
Also, kills take prescedence over the recruitment, so for the first turn there's only kne person the patriot needs to avoid killing. Also, the extreme protester doesn't know the identities of the scum.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 05, 2014, 03:27:37 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on April 05, 2014, 03:30:09 pm
Maybe if he needed like, half of the living players as soldiers at the end to win? It would also help if the police chief shared his win condition.Perhaps...
Also, I edited the last post to talk about the extremists a little, is it more balanced?
Post by: 4maskwolf on April 05, 2014, 03:31:12 pm
Post by: Tiruin on April 05, 2014, 06:55:03 pm
:P
Post by: 4maskwolf on April 05, 2014, 06:57:04 pm
You don't need to double post here. You may edit your post here.Sorry, old habits die hard.
:P
(and yes, I know I just said "old" habits)
Post by: mastahcheese on April 05, 2014, 07:19:45 pm
Post by: Tack on April 05, 2014, 11:59:26 pm
I thought no one would be lynched in a suicide. Disregard my previous post.That's another possibility- but it'd probably just get used by mafia to protect power roles.
Anything else seem unbalanced/dumb?
Planning on launching it in the next few days.
Post by: Elephant Parade on April 06, 2014, 01:01:05 am
Until the day the mafia sub-board has non-OP editing disabled.
Seems like a bad idea, to be honest. Unless you mean "original poster" and not "original post".
Post by: Tack on April 06, 2014, 06:03:06 am
Post by: Mephansteras on April 07, 2014, 01:11:16 pm
Post by: Tack on April 07, 2014, 08:14:29 pm
It was something approaching humor, not a serious suggestion.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 07, 2014, 08:45:45 pm
Post by: notquitethere on April 11, 2014, 07:18:21 am
Eight Mods, Eight Games, Seven Players In Each Game, One Thread, A Whole Lot of Mafia.
Each mod creates a seven player set-up, signing up the other seven mods. They send out roles and start their day in the thread.
Every time a player votes, they vote in all games they're playing in.
If a player is lynched or night killed, they only die in the game they were killed in. (But if there are no vote shenanigans, usually a player will be lynched in all games at the same time.)
Super Mod Mafia ends when all its composite mafia games end. The winners are those that win the most games.
Post by: Tack on April 11, 2014, 07:25:16 am
Also inb4 one 'uber scum' person whom the RNG loves.
But on the topic of crazy intense games:
Samurai Panic.
I take this role.
1. SamuraiAnd give it to every player.
Action: During the night you can choose to protect someone, which will defend them against any hostile actions. However, once you have chosen a person to protect, you are then bonded to them and can only protect that singular person until game end or they die by some other means (lynching, usually). But you do get a chat.
If you accidentally swear fealty to a ninja, tough luck, you become a scum too- regardless of whom you bond yourself to afterwards.
It's like an ultimate Mafia vs Cult
Optional: Lord, Daimyo and Shogun roles which appear when a person has X amount of samurai bonded to them.
Post by: mastahcheese on April 11, 2014, 07:02:06 pm
Post by: flabort on April 11, 2014, 10:20:44 pm
I actually thought of running a game where every player was a cult leader, and the first person to become a member of all cults won, with only like one or two players that were "hunters" and would revenge-kill anyone that tried to convert them.I'd play this.
Oh, I came to this thread because... well, not to get a sense of the meta,
Spoiler: Multi Mini Mafia (click to show/hide)
Post by: Toaster on April 15, 2014, 08:38:23 pm
I actually thought of running a game where every player was a cult leader, and the first person to become a member of all cults won, with only like one or two players that were "hunters" and would revenge-kill anyone that tried to convert them.
Let me break that for you.
"Everyone convert the player below you on the list!"
*2 5 and 7 die*
"Okay, 3, 6, and 8 are hunters; now round-robin convert everyone else and all living players win!"
Post by: TheDarkStar on April 15, 2014, 09:19:07 pm
I actually thought of running a game where every player was a cult leader, and the first person to become a member of all cults won, with only like one or two players that were "hunters" and would revenge-kill anyone that tried to convert them.
Let me break that for you.
"Everyone convert the player below you on the list!"
*2 5 and 7 die*
"Okay, 3, 6, and 8 are hunters; now round-robin convert everyone else and all living players win!"
It would work if the mod didn't reveal roles.
Post by: mastahcheese on April 15, 2014, 09:32:31 pm
It would work if the mod didn't reveal roles.This was the idea, nobody would know about the other cults, at least not at first.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 15, 2014, 09:35:03 pm
Post by: Shakerag on April 16, 2014, 10:59:48 am
Maybe something like ... send in 5 Xylbot roles, I'll pick two at random from those five and another two at random and now you've got 4 abilities, go nuts. No balancing of powers, just random what-the-hell-ever-ness.
Am I the only one who thinks this would be amusing?
Post by: notquitethere on April 16, 2014, 11:05:13 am
Post by: Persus13 on April 16, 2014, 11:08:29 am
I'm really tempted to run a batshit-insane power-hungry game that will almost certainly be woefully imbalanced. Just because it could be chaotically fun, the way a free-for-all melee is fun.No, I'd also want to play it.
Maybe something like ... send in 5 Xylbot roles, I'll pick two at random from those five and another two at random and now you've got 4 abilities, go nuts. No balancing of powers, just random what-the-hell-ever-ness.
Am I the only one who thinks this would be amusing?
Post by: Shakerag on April 16, 2014, 11:18:56 am
I'd play that. Would you still only be able to use one action a day or what?Depends on what you get. Hmm. The role list doesn't seem to indicate any "free" abilities, so I might consider something like ... for each ability you get, you have a chance of getting a modifier on it. Like a 1-in-10 chance of it being "free" so you can use it once during its respective phase and it doesn't count against your action limit. Or a 1-in-5 chance of it being a "chaotic" ability in which it will change into something else after you use it.
So, potentially, you could use 4 (or maybe more) actions per phase.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 16, 2014, 11:53:13 am
Quote from: Australian, slashes separate choices
mafia: Ascetic Reflecter*/Combined Reflecter Disabler*/Day Disabler Unstable Clone*,Eavesdropper/Mimic/Shuffler; survivor: Peeping Tom/Sleeper Reviver Survivor*/Witch Randomizer*; town: Lesser Computer Hacker Eavesdropper*/Lynchproof Super Vice Cop*/Secret Admirer Sensei!*, Lynchproof Warp*/Mimic Clone*/Shaman Gunsmith*, Cowardly Retired Wolf Hunter*/Skulking Twin*/Undertaker, Ascetic/Bruce Wayne/Magic Lamp
Post by: Leafsnail on April 16, 2014, 11:54:10 am
Post by: notquitethere on April 16, 2014, 12:00:34 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on April 16, 2014, 12:52:50 pm
Quote
You are BUDDY1's secret admirer. Each night, you give them a random gift. You can recruit another player to be your pupil in the martial arts. If your target is protown, they will join you and gain the ability to kill. Else, you will die. Actions: (auto)gift recruit
It's clearly nowhere near as good as Lynchproof Super Vice Cop but I think I'd still pick it for the name.
Post by: Shakerag on April 16, 2014, 03:01:09 pm
Might as well just run a Chaos or an Australian setup from Xylbot at that point. That would at least make the game more varied rather than pitting a bunch of kill-immune killers against each other.Yes, but part of the appeal is the chance of getting something horribly broken and insane. At least it is in my mind.
Like playing Pokémon with a randomizer. You want to see just -how- crazy the set-up could be.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 16, 2014, 03:07:57 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on April 16, 2014, 05:11:25 pm
Yes, but part of the appeal is the chance of getting something horribly broken and insane. At least it is in my mind.That's what Chaos and Australian are - completely randomly generated setups with no attention paid to alignments, balance or sanity. I once got Unlynchable Death Arsonist (sk) as a role in it Your proposal would have less variety because most people would just send in very similar roles, and you'd end up with something like Unlynchable Jackie Chan vs Black Guard Chuck Norris vs Recurring Nightmare Commando.
Like playing Pokémon with a randomizer. You want to see just -how- crazy the set-up could be.
Post by: Shakerag on April 16, 2014, 05:29:51 pm
Ahh, I now I get at what you're saying.Yes, but part of the appeal is the chance of getting something horribly broken and insane. At least it is in my mind.That's what Chaos and Australian are - completely randomly generated setups with no attention paid to alignments, balance or sanity. I once got Unlynchable Death Arsonist (sk) as a role in it Your proposal would have less variety because most people would just send in very similar roles, and you'd end up with something like Unlynchable Jackie Chan vs Black Guard Chuck Norris vs Recurring Nightmare Commando.
Like playing Pokémon with a randomizer. You want to see just -how- crazy the set-up could be.
Post by: notquitethere on April 16, 2014, 05:33:15 pm
Or maybe, Drafting Mafia: everyone gets three hyper-powered powers and they have to give one to the next player in the order at the end of each night.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 16, 2014, 05:47:54 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 16, 2014, 05:56:59 pm
Everyone gets a set of, say, 5 roles at the start of the game. They pick one of those 5 as their role for the next day/night. The other 4 are passed to the next person in line to use the next day and the person before them passes them their unused 4 roles. This continues until the end of the game.
You'd start the game with no information about who was what role, but as the game went on you'd have more and more information about who could have done what.
You wouldn't be able to have any mafia/town specific roles, though, without giving clues as to who the Mafia are. Hmm...unless you just let the Mafia know that they convert X town role into Y mafia role if they select it. That could work.
Post by: Persus13 on April 23, 2014, 04:18:20 pm
1/3 of players who are active (have posted in the last 24 hours, as usual weekends don't count?) needed to extend
In addition, in case of RL issues, a player can PM the GM asking for a 24 extension and giving reasons.
Post by: mastahcheese on April 23, 2014, 04:19:45 pm
I also really like the concept that's been used a couple times where people have their own personal extensions.
Post by: notquitethere on April 23, 2014, 05:25:04 pm
Post by: flabort on May 01, 2014, 12:11:28 am
Spoiler: New Idea (click to show/hide)
Post by: mastahcheese on May 01, 2014, 12:21:42 am
I may suggest reducing the number of levels, to keep the game from dragging on too long, however, although maybe that won't be a problem with the multiple night kills and lynches.
Post by: Leafsnail on May 01, 2014, 06:04:05 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on May 01, 2014, 06:07:20 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on May 01, 2014, 06:16:20 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on May 05, 2014, 06:27:08 am
- There are two teams: red and blue
- There are two separate game threads. In one game there is a red town and a blue mafia. In the other, there is a blue town and red scum. Each player only plays in one of the two threads
- You can only vote for people within your own game. You can discuss what's happening on the other thread, but since the two towns are opposed there isn't likely to be much constructive dialogue between them
- All night actions can target players in either thread / gameboard
- The day/night cycle of both threads are synchronised
- If a team wins on one board all of their surviving players enter the other one. For a town win this means the other board is suddenly flooded with mafia allies. For a mafia win this means the other board gets some confirmed town mason killers. Or it may be that Chaos Reigns if opposite sides win at the same time on different boards (everyone is dumped into the same game-thread to fight it out)
- The game then ends when only one side has living players, or when nothing can prevent the same. The game is a draw if all players end up dead
The roles would be closed, but my main thoughts:
- Vigilante type roles are probably a bad idea,you'd just fire them wildly at the other board
- I'd probably include a "spymaster" in each town, who can communicate with their allied mafia team
Post by: Persus13 on May 05, 2014, 10:35:00 am
Post by: mastahcheese on May 05, 2014, 04:01:49 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on May 05, 2014, 04:25:56 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on May 05, 2014, 07:46:42 pm
Bughouse Chess is a reasonable comparison.
Post by: Mephansteras on May 05, 2014, 08:06:05 pm
Post by: notquitethere on May 06, 2014, 11:15:28 am
CHOOSE-YOUR-OWN-MASQUERADE
This uses essentially the same rules as the last CYOM game. With a few major changes:
Deep South: The game is nightless. Players can take one action, and their actions are refreshed every time someone is lynched or a no-lynch is hammered.
Masquerade: Each player has a coloured mask which disguises their identity. Actions (but not votes) are targeted against disguises rather than players. Players can claim disguises and several powers swap disguises around. A player always knows which disguise they have ended up targeting, but not what player is under the disguise. A player only knows the mask that they started the masquerade with.
No Conversions: This is a pretty trigger-happy set-up with no conversions.
Spoiler: Masquerade Power List (click to show/hide)
Suggestions?
Post by: flabort on May 06, 2014, 04:37:01 pm
Makes the Chat power pretty important, though, for town AND scum.
I'd definitely play.
Post by: Mephansteras on May 06, 2014, 04:38:06 pm
Post by: flabort on May 06, 2014, 04:42:23 pm
I'd still play it either way.
Post by: Tack on May 07, 2014, 10:47:52 am
I like this game.Up to somebody else to balance the roles and run if they like the idea enough, based on the idea of a Tree Stump (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Tree_Stump). Where everybody will be one at some point.Spoiler: New Idea (click to show/hide)
But I'm very biased because I love playing crunch-mafia.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 07, 2014, 08:00:18 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on May 07, 2014, 08:06:37 pm
Then again newbie scum might need some help on fakeclaiming in Bird 7P, since it's a lot more role-focused than 2of3.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 07, 2014, 08:23:25 pm
I'm not sure if I like the idea of the scum IC in general. It means that the scum will be playing basically correctly while the town will be making rookie errors (the thread IC is dramatically different - town players don't get to discuss all their moves privately before making them), which results in far more town lynches than you'd otherwise expect.I think that the usefulness of the scum IC is largely variable. In the BM I played as scum, the IC couldn't keep my partner from playing so suspiciously he got day one lynched (my replacement partner, Solymr played well). He wasn't as much of a help to me either because I was experienced at playing scum.
Then again newbie scum might need some help on fakeclaiming in Bird 7P, since it's a lot more role-focused than 2of3.
That being said, I think that the setup for the BM may need one, particularly because they can't find power roles like in regular BM's. Also, the town has never been able to plan together, and the IC's usually inform people of what is considered a "scummy" action, at least in broad strokes. It also makes the game a tad more interesting if the scum don't just serve themselves up on a platter.
Post by: flabort on May 12, 2014, 09:31:30 pm
Someone got a mood altering drug into the water main, and the entire town got packed into the asylum to protect them.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 12, 2014, 10:30:47 pm
I had an idea. Similar to how I based that tree one off of the Treestump article, I was reading the "roles typically considered to be Bastard" list on the wiki, and came up withThis open setup for 8, 12, or 17 players (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkdRWbDnsi70dGxGa2VwdEo5bHJTb3g4WFNyUl9tVFE&usp=sharing), based off of the Suicidal role.Interesting...
Someone got a mood altering drug into the water main, and the entire town got packed into the asylum to protect them.
What do the others think of it?
Also, I like how you use spreadsheets for your games.
Post by: notquitethere on May 13, 2014, 01:05:57 pm
I've been thinking of ways to make the early day game more engaging. I like how in CYOM bloodthirsty encouraged players to bandwagon. Some further possibilities I'd consider:
- Everyone starts off with a piece of information on someone else, but some players are given false info. It'd be stuff like 'Persus has something to hide', 'Tiruin and Groovester share the same alignment', 'Wolf knows what you are'.
- The person with the most non-consecutive posts in a day gets an additional vote the following day. The player with the least consecutive posts loses their vote.
- Every time you put someone at L-1, everyone voting them gets some small flavour info on that player.
Post by: Elephant Parade on May 15, 2014, 08:11:51 pm
It would be like normal mafia, but without most rules. People would be free to send PMs, talk at night, and ask random people not playing for help. Dead players would be free to post in the thread, and so would people not even playing! Replacement requests would be fulfilled by the first person not currently playing to quote the post.
It's probably a terrible idea. Scum would probably need a pretty big buff, too. Still, I'd be interested to see it someday.
Of course, people would probably find a ton of broken strategies in the first game. An "Anarchy Mafia II" would probably require some bans. If I do run this, I'll probably only run it once.
The biggest upside is that it won't require much work from the mod. They'll have to tally votes and process actions, but they won't need to worry about rules disputes because there won't be any!
Post by: Persus13 on May 15, 2014, 08:16:48 pm
My new idea for a setup: Anarchy Mafia!
It would be like normal mafia, but without most rules. People would be free to send PMs, talk at night, and ask random people not playing for help. Dead players would be free to post in the thread, and so would people not even playing! Replacement requests would be fulfilled by the first person not currently playing to quote the post.
It's probably a terrible idea. Scum would probably need a pretty big buff, too. Still, I'd be interested to see it someday.
Of course, people would probably find a ton of broken strategies in the first game. An "Anarchy Mafia II" would probably require some bans. If I do run this, I'll probably only run it once.
The biggest upside is that it won't require much work from the mod. They'll have to tally votes and process actions, but they won't need to worry about rules disputes because there won't be any!
This would be interesting, especially with quoting the mod disabled.
Post by: Leafsnail on May 15, 2014, 08:26:46 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on May 15, 2014, 08:35:49 pm
Nope. Quoting the mod would be allowed. If there are any rules, it ruins the point.My new idea for a setup: Anarchy Mafia!
It would be like normal mafia, but without most rules. People would be free to send PMs, talk at night, and ask random people not playing for help. Dead players would be free to post in the thread, and so would people not even playing! Replacement requests would be fulfilled by the first person not currently playing to quote the post.
It's probably a terrible idea. Scum would probably need a pretty big buff, too. Still, I'd be interested to see it someday.
Of course, people would probably find a ton of broken strategies in the first game. An "Anarchy Mafia II" would probably require some bans. If I do run this, I'll probably only run it once.
The biggest upside is that it won't require much work from the mod. They'll have to tally votes and process actions, but they won't need to worry about rules disputes because there won't be any!
This would be interesting, especially with quoting the mod disabled.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 15, 2014, 09:00:37 pm
Plus: fake mod quotes!Nope. Quoting the mod would be allowed. If there are any rules, it ruins the point.My new idea for a setup: Anarchy Mafia!
It would be like normal mafia, but without most rules. People would be free to send PMs, talk at night, and ask random people not playing for help. Dead players would be free to post in the thread, and so would people not even playing! Replacement requests would be fulfilled by the first person not currently playing to quote the post.
It's probably a terrible idea. Scum would probably need a pretty big buff, too. Still, I'd be interested to see it someday.
Of course, people would probably find a ton of broken strategies in the first game. An "Anarchy Mafia II" would probably require some bans. If I do run this, I'll probably only run it once.
The biggest upside is that it won't require much work from the mod. They'll have to tally votes and process actions, but they won't need to worry about rules disputes because there won't be any!
This would be interesting, especially with quoting the mod disabled.
Post by: Elephant Parade on May 15, 2014, 09:48:58 pm
I'll just send everyone completely different PMs. Problem solved.Plus: fake mod quotes!Nope. Quoting the mod would be allowed. If there are any rules, it ruins the point.My new idea for a setup: Anarchy Mafia!
It would be like normal mafia, but without most rules. People would be free to send PMs, talk at night, and ask random people not playing for help. Dead players would be free to post in the thread, and so would people not even playing! Replacement requests would be fulfilled by the first person not currently playing to quote the post.
It's probably a terrible idea. Scum would probably need a pretty big buff, too. Still, I'd be interested to see it someday.
Of course, people would probably find a ton of broken strategies in the first game. An "Anarchy Mafia II" would probably require some bans. If I do run this, I'll probably only run it once.
The biggest upside is that it won't require much work from the mod. They'll have to tally votes and process actions, but they won't need to worry about rules disputes because there won't be any!
This would be interesting, especially with quoting the mod disabled.
The only thing I see being an issue now is cryptographic hashing. I may create hashes that can be interpreted in multiple ways and distribute them to all players.
Post by: Persus13 on May 16, 2014, 10:38:35 am
Post by: flabort on May 23, 2014, 11:04:06 pm
And whether or not to let someone who's not planning on playing look at it before hand.
I'm hoping for more players next time, obviously.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 24, 2014, 09:56:44 am
I have finished my roles list for MiniMafiaMadness II. I just have to decide on a flavor, and what month to run it in.I guess I could check it again... Seeing as how I'm not going to be able to play mafia anytime soon...
And whether or not to let someone who's not planning on playing look at it before hand.
I'm hoping for more players next time, obviously.
Post by: flabort on May 24, 2014, 01:02:21 pm
I'll send you a PM soon then.
Post by: webadict on May 24, 2014, 03:22:43 pm
Awww... I was kinda hoping you'd be done whatever IRL stuff is affecting you right now by the time I run it.I never play Mafia, so I could look at it too.
I'll send you a PM soon then.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 10:35:36 am
Is there any particular flavor of mafia game people want to see run? I could write up a game for any flavor, seeing as how I've got a lot of time on my hands right now. Complete with new roles and everything. Then, of course, I would get it proofread.
Just a thought.
Post by: Shakerag on June 13, 2014, 10:53:06 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 11:00:10 am
I think there a few games in queue right now anyway?Yes, this is just for planning purposes.
Post by: flabort on June 13, 2014, 01:39:44 pm
There were a couple awful Matrix themed games I ran @ GitP.I think there a few games in queue right now anyway?Yes, this is just for planning purposes.
I'd like to see if you could do better?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 02:10:00 pm
Challenge accepted.There were a couple awful Matrix themed games I ran @ GitP.I think there a few games in queue right now anyway?Yes, this is just for planning purposes.
I'd like to see if you could do better?
Edit: AAAAAND it immediately turns into a semi-bastard game
Post by: flabort on June 14, 2014, 07:04:24 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 14, 2014, 07:07:09 pm
Yeah... there being at least 3 factions in the canon makes it hard to do. ::)Who says I'm going to use more than two factions?
Post by: flabort on June 14, 2014, 09:44:45 pm
Post by: webadict on June 15, 2014, 12:13:41 am
Just a straight up good versus evil thing, then. OK, I guess if you just use the first movie it would work.Who says he's even watched a single movie?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 09:12:59 am
Now now Wuba, don't be a scaremonger.Just a straight up good versus evil thing, then. OK, I guess if you just use the first movie it would work.Who says he's even watched a single movie?
That being said, this game is either going to be kinda simplistic or hella complicated. Take your pick, Flabort.
Post by: flabort on June 15, 2014, 01:22:16 pm
Post by: flabort on June 29, 2014, 02:15:01 am
I found an anime on Netflix recently. I had noticed it's name, and it was familiar to me. So I've been watching it, and it's quite enjoyable. So I wanted to share the reason I knew it's name.
The anime is Death Note. When I was a mafia player in Giant In the Playground Games, I saw a very popular series there (equivalent to the Supernatural or Paranormal series here) called Death Note. I never played, but I think I recall the gist of the rules, and if their archive isn't gone I can look them up.
Actually, on a second look, only two Death Note
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 09:18:55 am
CHOOSE-YOUR-OWN-MASQUERADE
This uses essentially the same rules as the last CYOM game. With a few major changes:
Deep South: The game is nightless. Players can take one action, and their actions are refreshed every time someone is lynched or a no-lynch is hammered.
Masquerade: Each player has a coloured mask which disguises their identity. Actions (but not votes) are targeted against disguises rather than players. Players can claim disguises and several powers swap disguises around. A player always knows which disguise they have ended up targeting, but not what player is under the disguise. A player only knows the mask that they started the masquerade with.
No Conversions: This is a pretty trigger-happy set-up with no conversions.Spoiler: Masquerade Power List (click to show/hide)
Suggestions?
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 09:20:02 am
Post by: Toaster on July 07, 2014, 10:28:07 am
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 10:30:09 am
Do players know their current mask, assuming they get swapped?No... they know their mask at the start. After that, they'd need to use Self-Peek. Makes Bus (which should just be called 'Mask Swap') pretty powerful.
Post by: Toaster on July 07, 2014, 11:15:09 am
How do lovers and revive interact? [If my lover dies and revives, do I die? If my lover dies but I have a revive, do I die again or stay alive?]
I assume powers can be bought at any time now? Since you now gain a power at day-start instead of night start, does D1 start with giving you a point?
Mercenary is still useless; especially if you don't gain a point at D1 start.
Can you send in actions "ahead of time" near the lynch for actions like protect and block which make sense to be done early on?
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 11:30:03 am
Could copycat be used to double the scum kill?Hmm, I want to say no. I don't like having so many exceptions for the scum team, but it seems best to disallow the obvious trick of copy-catting the scumkill.
How do lovers and revive interact? [If my lover dies and revives, do I die? If my lover dies but I have a revive, do I die again or stay alive?]A player with a Resurrection actually dies and all death-related effects trigger, including killing Lovers. A player with a Resurrection who's lover is killed would die and then revive (they'd still have the Lover flaw, it just wouldn't do anything).
I assume powers can be bought at any time now? Since you now gain a power at day-start instead of night start, does D1 start with giving you a point?Powers can be bought at any time. The flow is Character Creation -> Day -> Lynch -> Resurrections -> Experience Point Gain -> Day etc., so you don't get xp at the start of the game (though you obviously get character creation points).
Also, there'll be a character creation period at the beginning so everyone has their chosen power set before we begin.
Mercenary is still useless; especially if you don't gain a point at D1 start.It's a legitimate flaw to burden someone with in a Cursed One changeling build.
Can you send in actions "ahead of time" near the lynch for actions like protect and block which make sense to be done early on?Yeah, I guess that'd be OK. Kinder to people in the wrong time-zone at any rate.
Post by: flabort on July 07, 2014, 01:13:01 pm
Also, Flabort, Death Note mafia looks interesting but in cleaving so close to the show it looks needlessly complicated. Can you link us to a successful game of it?Here is game 1:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?85553-Death-Note-Werewolf-Game-%28ongoing%29
I think it must have been successful in order for a sequel to be run.
Speaking of Mercenary Changeling Cursed One... I'll PM you a totes broken awesome role that I set up months ago.
Post by: Toaster on July 07, 2014, 03:57:43 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 05:55:33 pm
Post by: webadict on July 07, 2014, 09:12:15 pm
Industrious into Flexible. Then start buying and selling 2 point powers for 1 additional point. You suddenly have infinite buying power. Now assuming that I can ONLY buy these powers once, I will gain 15 points. But, that's just being a rules lawyer, and isn't likely to work.
Kill-breaking strategy:
Since I have no idea what number of points Townies start with, all Townies should take the following (As it adds up to 0):
Code: [Select]
1 - Scan (spot how many points a target has)
4 - Explosive (you kill anyone targeting a kill at you as well as dying)
6 - Kill Immune - (you are immune to kills)
-1 - Suspicious. shows up as scum under inspect. Scum get this auto for free.
-1 - Dense (you gain no experience points for surviving the day)
-1 - Mercenary (all your powers cost one point to play. Must have at least one applicable power in order to take this flaw)
-1 - Blatant (every time you target a player, it will be announced at the end of the phase that you targeted them, but not what with)
-1 Minimalist (If you ever receive a power or auto (through Gift, Santa, Bless, Generous etc.) it is randomly given away to a non-minimalist player if there are any non-minimalist players alive.)
-2 - Magnetic (powers have 50% chance of targeting yourself- must have at least one non-self-targeting power to take)
-2 – One-Shot (your powers disappear after they've been used. Must have at least one power to take.)
-2 - Intermittent (your powers only work on even phases)No kills are possible. However, votes could be stolen and the game won that way... So, the work around, of course, isCode: [Select]
2 – Industrious (other autos cost one less to purchase, to a minimum of 1)
3 – Super-Saint (The person who casts the final lynch vote on you will also die)for an extra cost of 2 points. These 2 points should come fromCode: [Select]
-2 - Unable to voteBoom. Unkillable, super saint, PGO Townies at the cost of 0 points.
Do I win?
Post by: zombie urist on July 07, 2014, 09:14:01 pm
Post by: webadict on July 07, 2014, 09:15:31 pm
Then the scum will just lynch all the townies.Super Saint means they die for putting any lynching vote on them. The Town outnumber the scum, after all.
Post by: Toaster on July 07, 2014, 09:15:59 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 07, 2014, 09:16:30 pm
Post by: webadict on July 07, 2014, 09:18:00 pm
5 points to start with, by the way.Oh, you guys are so screwed now.
5 points is like becoming a god.
Post by: flabort on July 07, 2014, 09:32:06 pm
I used a lot of power modifiers, though, in order to make it work. NQT, I PMed it to you. Preliminary thoughts, without reveal what it is?
Post by: webadict on July 07, 2014, 10:01:11 pm
I've got my own strategy for becoming all powerful. Works as both Town and Scum. It's not that one.Cool. I came up with amazing godlike powers too. But I won't tell you what it is because I didn't.
I used a lot of power modifiers, though, in order to make it work. NQT, I PMed it to you. Preliminary thoughts, without reveal what it is?
Add the following for 5 points.
2 - Unstoppable (can't be blocked or protected against. Immunities still apply)
3 – Holy (cannot be cursed, blessings have a 50% chance of giving you an auto further down this list)
3 – Hardy (you cannot be sapped or recycled)
Holy blocks potential stalls on the scumteam to Curse the Town into submission. Hardy blocks nothing, but you might as well get it. Same with Unstoppable.
Post by: notquitethere on July 08, 2014, 03:51:06 am
Easy break:Good spot! This is why I opened it to the floor. Yeah, I'll reword those to prevent that sort of shenanigan. Might just scrap Industrious.
Industrious into Flexible. Then start buying and selling 2 point powers for 1 additional point. You suddenly have infinite buying power. Now assuming that I can ONLY buy these powers once, I will gain 15 points. But, that's just being a rules lawyer, and isn't likely to work.
Kill-breaking strategy:Flaws can only be taken at character creation and town players can't conspire during character creation, so there's no guarantee of everyone taking that set-up.
Since I have no idea what number of points Townies start with, all Townies should take the following (As it adds up to 0):Code: [Select]1 - Scan (spot how many points a target has)No kills are possible. However, votes could be stolen and the game won that way... So, the work around, of course, is
4 - Explosive (you kill anyone targeting a kill at you as well as dying)
6 - Kill Immune - (you are immune to kills)
-1 - Suspicious. shows up as scum under inspect. Scum get this auto for free.
-1 - Dense (you gain no experience points for surviving the day)
-1 - Mercenary (all your powers cost one point to play. Must have at least one applicable power in order to take this flaw)
-1 - Blatant (every time you target a player, it will be announced at the end of the phase that you targeted them, but not what with)
-1 Minimalist (If you ever receive a power or auto (through Gift, Santa, Bless, Generous etc.) it is randomly given away to a non-minimalist player if there are any non-minimalist players alive.)
-2 - Magnetic (powers have 50% chance of targeting yourself- must have at least one non-self-targeting power to take)
-2 – One-Shot (your powers disappear after they've been used. Must have at least one power to take.)
-2 - Intermittent (your powers only work on even phases)Code: [Select]2 – Industrious (other autos cost one less to purchase, to a minimum of 1)for an extra cost of 2 points. These 2 points should come from
3 – Super-Saint (The person who casts the final lynch vote on you will also die)Code: [Select]-2 - Unable to vote
Boom. Unkillable, super saint, PGO Townies at the cost of 0 points.
Do I win?
You get 5 points to begin with, I'm considering of instigating a -5 point flaw cap to prevent the more extreme kinds of min-maxing (though a certain amount of munchikining is encouraged).
Post by: webadict on July 08, 2014, 08:54:57 am
If you are being reflected and you action yourself, does the action actually happen? Also, if you are Radiant while being Reflected, do you Radiant before the Reflect or afterward? Do Reflects reflect reflected actions?
If you have all 2-point Autos, does Bless do anything?
Does Santa give Powers that the target already has?
If you Recycle a Power that is being used, does that action still succeed?
If an action is copied or Radianted that would only be able to happen once (Gift a target a Power/Point Share), would the copied/Radianted action fail?
If you Copycat yourself Copycating yourself while being Radiant, does everyone get Copycatted to you? Also, does the world end?
Suggestions:
-5 is a good cap for Flaws at the start. Doing so seems to prevent too much power.
Deep South should have your actions be able to be sent any time during the Day. This makes the game go by faster, at the cost of not allowing the information from the lynch to affect your action. In fact, if actions are NOT sent before the lynch, then they shouldn't really be counted at all. Otherwise, it's not really Nightless.
Possible Strong Role:
-4 from Flaws.
Free Innate Self Bless for 6.
Holy for 3.
Get free points in the forms of Autos, especially once you get Prolific and Flexible.
Post by: notquitethere on July 08, 2014, 10:10:50 am
If you are being reflected and you action yourself, does the action actually happen?No it happens: it just means the reflection was redundant. Reflection can be thought of as setting the target of the action to yourself even when it was already set to yourself.
Also, if you are Radiant while being Reflected, do you Radiant before the Reflect or afterward?Reflect triggers first, changing your target to yourself, and then you would hit yourself and have that action radiate onto a random player.
Do Reflects reflect reflected actions?No, as above, if you had reflect and targeted a kill on someone who had reflect, you would kill yourself: the first reflect would change the target to yourself, it would hit your reflect and change the target to yourself and then kill yourself. You don't get the FF7 situation where there's magic bouncing back and forth for eternity.
If you have all 2-point Autos, does Bless do anything?Hmm, I'd have to make a ruling: either, no, it doesn't do anything; it starts giving you other autos of lower then higher value; or it just gives you duplicates of autos that you can sell off.
Does Santa give Powers that the target already has?I think that's how I did it last time, and no one was unlucky enough to get the same power twice. Stacking up multiples of the same power still gives you things to sell or Gift or swap or whatever.
If you Recycle a Power that is being used, does that action still succeed?In the previous game it acted as a roleblock, but in the Deep South variant it makes most sense just to destroy the power, not any current affects it might have given the player that used it.
If an action is copied or Radianted that would only be able to happen once (Gift a target aMy first instinct is to say, yeah, why not have duplicated gifting and sharing, but I suspect that'd be horribly abused by a clever scum team, so I'd probably err on one-off actions failing to copy (along with the scum-kill which is considered a strictly once-per-day action).
Power/Point Share), would the copied/Radianted action fail?
If you Copycat yourself Copycating yourself while being Radiant, does everyone get Copycatted to you? Also, does the world end?Copycat doesn't work on mult-targeted actions, and copycat is a multi-targeted action, so thankfully I'm spared that headache.
-5 is a good cap for Flaws at the start. Doing so seems to prevent too much power.Cool. It's decided.
Deep South should have your actions be able to be sent any time during the Day.Yep, that's how it'll work.
In fact, if actions are NOT sent before the lynch, then they shouldn't really be counted at all. Otherwise, it's not really Nightless.Actions sent while I'm processing the lynch won't count, but I'm considering allowing people to stack up conditional actions to trigger at the start of the day where it makes sense to get in early (like protects, blocks etc.)
Possible Strong Role:That'd be nice. Slow run up, but so long as you survive the first phase or two could be pretty devastating.
-4 from Flaws.
Free Innate Self Bless for 6.
Holy for 3.
Get free points in the forms of Autos, especially once you get Prolific and Flexible.
Post by: webadict on July 08, 2014, 01:27:20 pm
Post by: flabort on July 08, 2014, 02:22:56 pm
Nooooooooooo! :P-5 is a good cap for Flaws at the start. Doing so seems to prevent too much power.Cool. It's decided.
I'll have to drop hidden, and some of the flaws I picked, but I guess my choices still work. Oh, yeah, and drop scan, because I was only using that to qualify for Generous, to get more points, which I can't get now.
Post by: notquitethere on July 08, 2014, 04:28:19 pm
I see. You don't process all the actions at the end of the day. You do it immediately. That's pretty harsh. I feel like it'd make protects pretty useless, as well as blocks. Bleh.Well, that's why I'd allow protects etc. to be set in advance. I thought about it both ways: but basically, the day is more exciting if there's constant new flow of actions happening throughout. Also, having everything suddenly hit at the lynch makes investigative roles less useful/interesting. Note that Protect is already very cheap: a player could potentially protect multiple people every day. I'm happy to hear out the alternative argument.
---
Thinking about buying and selling: I think I'll allow only one lot of buying and selling in a day (taken when they like), to prevent players with Flexible buying free-use powers, selling them off and then buying more free-use powers endlessly.
Post by: Toaster on July 09, 2014, 09:00:30 am
Post by: notquitethere on July 09, 2014, 09:07:53 am
Post by: notquitethere on July 09, 2014, 09:09:17 am
Post by: Leafsnail on July 09, 2014, 11:10:27 am
The main issues I see are
1) the town can easily make themselves completely unkillable, making this effectively a vanilla game with no nights
The only way the scum could break this is with an insane vote-stealer rush, but vote-stealer is very expensive and the town can lock down harder with super-saints to prevent this. You could have Power Steal hit autos too (or make an Auto Steal power) to prevent auto-based breaking strategies?
2) The only way that scum stand a chance is if they have a lot of bussing. It was the best defensive option last game and it's even better now, although I can't really suggest nerfing it because otherwise the game would be a town walkover.
Post by: webadict on July 09, 2014, 12:30:20 pm
I think Alignment Cop is still probably worthless and all townies should pick Suspicious, although at least the game won't be ripped apart by infallibility this time.I tend to agree with this sentiment. While there's no outright unbalance, you'll notice by Day 2 that the game has favored town for many reasons.
The main issues I see are
1) the town can easily make themselves completely unkillable, making this effectively a vanilla game with no nights
The only way the scum could break this is with an insane vote-stealer rush, but vote-stealer is very expensive and the town can lock down harder with super-saints to prevent this. You could have Power Steal hit autos too (or make an Auto Steal power) to prevent auto-based breaking strategies?
2) The only way that scum stand a chance is if they have a lot of bussing. It was the best defensive option last game and it's even better now, although I can't really suggest nerfing it because otherwise the game would be a town walkover.
Oh that's good. Yes much more elegant. Ten points to King Toast. That's the rule now.This rule can be broken by Free Self Recycle, which creates a huge problem, especially when mixed with the Auto that lets you sell back Autos. Basically, you invest in a bunch of Free actions and you can sell them back on that Day with Recycle.
Post by: notquitethere on July 09, 2014, 02:53:44 pm
I think Alignment Cop is still probably worthless and all townies should pick Suspicious, although at least the game won't be ripped apart by infallibility this time.Might make Alignment Cop super cheap, essentially making it a 'did this person use one of their five flaw points on Suspicious?' check.
The main issues I see areThe thing is, most players will want to have more active powers so most won't put most of their points into unkillable. But yeah, an autosteal power is a good addition.
1) the town can easily make themselves completely unkillable, making this effectively a vanilla game with no nights
The only way the scum could break this is with an insane vote-stealer rush, but vote-stealer is very expensive and the town can lock down harder with super-saints to prevent this. You could have Power Steal hit autos too (or make an Auto Steal power) to prevent auto-based breaking strategies?
2) The only way that scum stand a chance is if they have a lot of bussing. It was the best defensive option last game and it's even better now, although I can't really suggest nerfing it because otherwise the game would be a town walkover.See it's a hard thing, because a competent and well oiled scum team (exactly what there wasn't last time) could easily come up with any number of game breaking combos. The existence of Power Steal now is a potent weapon against the inevitable town mass-claim. Would you suggest any pro-scum additions?
This rule can be broken by Free Self Recycle, which creates a huge problem, especially when mixed with the Auto that lets you sell back Autos. Basically, you invest in a bunch of Free actions and you can sell them back on that Day with Recycle.I'm borderline close to scrapping Recycle: it was too powerful in the first game and I'm not sure it adds enough to justify the potential for over-exploiting. I'll have a little think on it.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 09, 2014, 02:55:22 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 09, 2014, 03:12:00 pm
Any powers people think could be interesting? Anyone think of any more trickery based powers like Gossip, Redirect or Mask Swap?
Spoiler: Current Power List (click to show/hide)
Post by: Leafsnail on July 09, 2014, 03:33:04 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 09, 2014, 03:45:18 pm
Another power I was thinking of:
3 - Patsy: pick a new colour for a mask; that mask is now seen in-play (players always know how many masks are in-play and what colour they are). Like any mask, it can be a valid target for any power.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 09, 2014, 03:49:42 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 09, 2014, 03:55:02 pm
3 - Patsy: pick a new colour for a mask; that mask is now seen in-play (players always know how many masks are in-play and what colour they are). Like any mask, it can be a valid target for any power.Heh. I like this one.
Post by: Toaster on July 09, 2014, 04:08:34 pm
Post by: flabort on July 09, 2014, 04:24:34 pm
6 - Resurrect: Pick a deceased player. You lose this ability without refund and they come back to life. There is a 25% chance that the player's alignment will not remain the same.
4 - Necromancy: Pick a target disguise. If the disguise belongs to a zombified player, pick a power you think they have and a target. They will use this ability on this target if they have it.
Post by: webadict on July 09, 2014, 08:13:26 pm
4 - Zombify: Pick a deceased player. You lose the ability without refund, and their disguise shows up as being still in play, and they may be targeted like normal. Powers associated with the zombified player may be targeted. The zombified player may not act, they are still dead. If they come back to life, it overwrites Zombification.No.
6 - Resurrect: Pick a deceased player. You lose this ability without refund and they come back to life. There is a 25% chance that the player's alignment will not remain the same.
4 - Necromancy: Pick a target disguise. If the disguise belongs to a zombified player, pick a power you think they have and a target. They will use this ability on this target if they have it.
Post by: Toaster on July 09, 2014, 09:25:07 pm
Post by: flabort on July 09, 2014, 11:32:19 pm
hmm. I do see the point. Not even making it cost 8 points would negate that fact.
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 10:39:36 am
Post by: webadict on July 10, 2014, 05:55:54 pm
Resurrection is probably a bad idea for the reasons mentioned, but I had a good think about the zombify-necromancer combo, and I there are potentially fun possibilities with it: once a zombie appeared, half the town would either try to kill it or sell their current powers to buy necromancy to use the dead townie (assuming the dead player had a useful power like Kill or Santa). Or a player could easily just redirect the hapless corpse or bus it... actually there's a lot of potential here. I suspect some people will have good reasons why not though. Wuba?It's not that it's overpowered. It's that it's essentially using your Necromancy power to control someone else that might not be a zombie to do a power that might not happen that already cost you points. Essentially, it's not worth the Point investment except as an annoyance to the rest of the players. The only real investment is for mafia players to revive dead mafia so that they can use their powerful abilities for slightly cheaper. If necromancy were automatically a free action or incredibly cheap since you're basically using a VERY targeted and limited Power Steal/Redirect (2ish), then it would be a worthy investment for all, assuming that zombify stayed how it was and copying it ALSO removed copycat (Since the ability is copied.)
I'd be on the fence. It's got some appeal, but does it have enough appeal? The ability gets stronger the less people there are, so you should be wary about that.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 10, 2014, 06:31:29 pm
e: if multiple people target the same ability no-one gets it
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 06:45:04 pm
3 - Graverob, pick a power held by a dead player, if no one else has graverobbed the power, you now have that power.
Post by: Elephant Parade on July 10, 2014, 07:40:33 pm
I like that a lot and avoids a lot of the problems Wuba highlighted with the necromancy stuff.Ooh. That could do interesting things when combined with Fortune Teller.
3 - Graverob, pick a power held by a dead player, if no one else has graverobbed the power, you now have that power.
Post by: Toaster on July 10, 2014, 09:45:49 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 11, 2014, 04:05:51 am
Post by: webadict on July 11, 2014, 10:21:54 am
Any thoughts?
Post by: notquitethere on July 11, 2014, 10:36:26 am
Post by: Jack A T on July 11, 2014, 12:31:45 pm
Post by: webadict on July 11, 2014, 03:41:54 pm
I like how BYOR roles are already handled. Limited player control already exists through the descriptions the players give with their submissions (I managed to get a medium through careful description of a Canadian Prime Minister back in BYOR 7, for instance), and that is much easier to balance than a bunch of different "I want to be a deadly investigator!" roles.See, if everyone wanted to be a deadly investigator, they would regret it.
Post by: Toaster on July 11, 2014, 07:52:04 pm
Post by: webadict on July 11, 2014, 08:00:35 pm
Poison cops everywhere!Psh. More like kill anyone that was Town on investigation.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 12, 2014, 02:19:39 am
Post by: Elephant Parade on July 12, 2014, 10:25:35 pm
You are a Harsh But Fair Inquisitor. Every night, you may place live scorpions in someone's bed. If the subject is innocent, they will surely be slain by the vile creatures' venom and therefore exonerated. Should they be servants of darkness, however, they will surely find kinship with the wretched beasts, thereby revealing their true natures to you.It's like the most horrible cop variant ever combined with the most horrible vigilante variant ever!
Post by: Leafsnail on July 13, 2014, 09:17:51 am
Post by: Toaster on July 14, 2014, 02:07:44 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 14, 2014, 02:25:11 pm
The real question is what it does to third parties.The harsh answer would be nothing, thus increasing the likelihood of false positives.
Post by: Persus13 on July 18, 2014, 12:13:11 am
Post by: zombie urist on July 18, 2014, 12:40:28 am
I'm still thinking about Dangan Ronpa mafia. But it will be after NQT does CYOM II.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 18, 2014, 08:39:02 am
Post by: Leafsnail on July 18, 2014, 12:24:10 pm
Problem is that flavor claims would instantly out the scum team.You can avoid this by giving the scum a safeclaim. In this case you'd leave one of Johnny's friends out of the game and tell Lisa which one that was.
Post by: Jack A T on July 19, 2014, 11:53:50 pm
Instead of having one kingmaker, everyone gets to help decide the king. Each night, each player sends in one vote for whoever they want to be the king. Players cannot vote for themselves. The living player with the most votes is the king for the next day. If there is a tie for first place, a king will be randomly selected from those tied.
The only information made public about the vote is the winner. (Giving the relative places of the players without a full votecount may also work)
Game starts with a 48 hour lynchless and kingless Day 0, to give some basis for the Night 0 king decision.
Scum has a team nightkill, to be used Night 1 and on.
Any thoughts?
Post by: Leafsnail on July 20, 2014, 02:17:49 am
Post by: TolyK on August 06, 2014, 02:04:13 pm
Ahem, redone.
SHOOTOUT
2 scum out of 5-7 players (not sure about exact numbers).
Each player has X points at any time, starts with N (5?) points, and this each player's point amount is known at all times. Scum has a chat.
If you reach 0 points, you exit the game (this is a good thing!).
Two phases - day and night.
During the day, discussion and lynching occur. Lynching adds 2 points to the target's total. Voting "no lynch" is possible and ties will also result in no lynch. Days last 24-48 hours.
During the night, the shootout occurs. Each person PM's the mod the person they want to shoot (or !none's).
If the sum of your attackers' X's is more than your own X, you gain 1 point (are "killed").
If you succeed in helping kill someone (i.e. if your target was "killed"), you lose 2 points.
In order to win, a team must have 2 players (equal to size of scum team) leave the game.
The original game this one is based on is one I invented some time ago (do not know if it was invented before me, but whatever), where there was no scum team (every man for himself), no lynching, and killing lost you only one point. It took a lot of rounds to finish, so I sped it up.
Post by: Persus13 on August 18, 2014, 11:17:54 am
However, I'm not sure how I would balance the numbers of such a game. I would want third parties, I know that for sure.
Post by: Toaster on August 18, 2014, 11:30:27 am
Post by: Persus13 on August 18, 2014, 11:36:40 am
I'm reasonably certain you can use the actual Xylbot to generate a set of roles given a number of players and a couple of parameters based on extremeness of the roles.Oh, I didn't realize that was a thing. I'm dumb.
Post by: Toaster on August 18, 2014, 01:45:39 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2014, 05:03:55 pm
Post by: webadict on August 19, 2014, 12:44:36 pm
I've been considering running some sort of Unbalanced Mafia game. Each person gets an alignment and then receives a random role from the Xylbot Role List (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=12368) (that matches their alignment). The game then begins.Sounds like a less extreme KotM.
However, I'm not sure how I would balance the numbers of such a game. I would want third parties, I know that for sure.
Post by: Toaster on August 22, 2014, 09:12:06 pm
The point of having a list of alignments is to let players know what to expect in the game, I think it's not a bad idea. Having "outsider" on the list undermines that goal, though.I agree, and I mostly avoid Outsider, as it tends to be a rather useless alignment. Sort of ruins the point of the game. But, I keep it in the off-chance that it's needed. I also find that Brother is a poor alignment of choice, but only because you can't have a lot of influence over whether you win or lose.
Town/Mafia is standard
SK is a good alignment
Cult is a good alignment, but it's a tough one to balance
Ally is a good alignment
Survivor tends to be an okay to bad alignment
Lyncher is a good alignment
Martyr is an odd alignment
Watcher is actually a surprisingly okay alignment
Assassin is... odd. It's tough to fully balance and make playable
Brother is bad since you have no idea what to really DO, and the person you're helping typically doesn't like you
Jester is awful garbage, and I think they should die in a fire. The only way to make Jester viable is to give them incentive to not make the game miserable for having them in it. Which is basically impossible.
Mostly out of curiosity, what kind of incentive for the jester are we talking about?
What kinds of powers would you put on a Jester?
What do you think of each form of ally? (Town-ally, Cult-ally, Survivor-ally, Brother-ally, Assassin-ally, Jester-ally, etc)
If you want to, you could just PM me, though, instead of wasting time.
Crossposting a bit because it's going off topic of the original thread.
If it's a hammer game, an incentive like "You have one additional vote for every non-town you are voting for that is lynched" perhaps?
Post by: flabort on August 22, 2014, 09:15:40 pm
I'm mostly wondering about Jester-ally, actually.
Or a lyncher-ally who is the [Player] that the lyncher wants dead. Ooh, that would be an interesting twist on the concept. They don't know that they want to get lynched.
Hmm. Now I can't include that in FHPBYOR, because it would be obvious what I was doing.
Post by: Toaster on August 22, 2014, 09:36:11 pm
Post by: flabort on August 23, 2014, 01:16:13 am
That's actually a clever idea. Nice.Which one? Self-target Lyncher-ally, or Jester-ally?
I'm guessing lyncher-ally.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 23, 2014, 06:30:31 am
Post by: Elephant Parade on August 23, 2014, 12:43:34 pm
Jester is already a pretty bad role, making it easier to win doesn't help.How so?
Game-ending jesters are kind of dumb, in my opinion. Otherwise, jesters can be interesting.
Post by: webadict on August 23, 2014, 05:27:25 pm
Unfortunately, they're not.Jester is already a pretty bad role, making it easier to win doesn't help.How so?
Game-ending jesters are kind of dumb, in my opinion. Otherwise, jesters can be interesting.
Imagine, if you will, that I just sit here and make the game as tedious and annoying for you as possible. The Mafia has no real reason to lynch me, and for all you know, I could simply be using RiA to not get lynched. So, essentially, you're going to have to lynch me. Jesters have poor alignments, and if they're played well, it's fun, but it's easier to win well by playing extremely poorly.
Post by: Elephant Parade on August 23, 2014, 07:35:03 pm
Oh.Unfortunately, they're not.Jester is already a pretty bad role, making it easier to win doesn't help.How so?
Game-ending jesters are kind of dumb, in my opinion. Otherwise, jesters can be interesting.
Imagine, if you will, that I just sit here and make the game as tedious and annoying for you as possible. The Mafia has no real reason to lynch me, and for all you know, I could simply be using RiA to not get lynched. So, essentially, you're going to have to lynch me. Jesters have poor alignments, and if they're played well, it's fun, but it's easier to win well by playing extremely poorly.
Perhaps jesters should be modkilled if they mention their jester-ness?
I suppose that's not an ideal solution, though.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 23, 2014, 08:19:27 pm
Post by: Persus13 on August 23, 2014, 08:41:10 pm
Jesters are often extremely annoying in Town of Salem (and cause themselves to lose by being obvious), but it's one of my favorite roles to play, because if you play it right and seem normal, then do the right thing to make people suspicious of you, you can get yourself lynched pretty easily.Unfortunately, they're not.Jester is already a pretty bad role, making it easier to win doesn't help.How so?
Game-ending jesters are kind of dumb, in my opinion. Otherwise, jesters can be interesting.
Imagine, if you will, that I just sit here and make the game as tedious and annoying for you as possible. The Mafia has no real reason to lynch me, and for all you know, I could simply be using RiA to not get lynched. So, essentially, you're going to have to lynch me. Jesters have poor alignments, and if they're played well, it's fun, but it's easier to win well by playing extremely poorly.
The one thing I do like about Town of Salem Jesters, is that they kill one of the people who voted them.
Post by: TheDarkStar on August 29, 2014, 02:12:53 pm
The one thing I do like about Town of Salem Jesters, is that they kill one of the people who voted them.
Yeah, this kind of thing ensures that people that are too obviously jesters don't get lynched.
Post by: 4maskwolf on August 29, 2014, 02:35:36 pm
That, and the fact that jailors have a tendency to execute them if they are too obvious, tends to discourage some people from being jerks about their jester role.The one thing I do like about Town of Salem Jesters, is that they kill one of the people who voted them.
Yeah, this kind of thing ensures that people that are too obviously jesters don't get lynched.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 29, 2014, 05:47:30 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on September 28, 2014, 11:09:31 am
What do people think of the following modified BYOR:
Pokemon mafia.
Basically, it works similar to normal BYOR's: everyone sends in a role (in this case, the name of a pokemon), and they get a role based on that pokemon. However, the night mechanics, mainly killing, work a little differently:
Every pokemon has certain statistics: type, hit points, speed, attack, spec attack, defense, and spec defense, much like in the pokemon games. The speed attribute, however, is the only attribute taken fairly straight from the games: the other attributes are modified, for reasons I'll get to in a minute. Every action (move, in game speak) has a certain type associated with it. Whenever a damaging action is used on another player, that player loses an amount of health equal to (attacker's attack/spec attack - defender's defense/spec defense) * .1 * move damage. Additionally, any multipliers from move type versus pokemon type (I'll keep track of these, don't worry) are applied as well. The attack, spec attack, defense, and spec defense values of a given pokemon go between 0 and 10. The amount of final damage is taken out of the defending pokemon's hitpoints, and if a pokemon's hp ever reaches 0, the player is eliminated. The speed attribute is used to determine who gets to act first: in this way, a kill might go before a roleblock or what have you. The standard mafiakill clocks in at 60 normal-type damage.
Lynches still work the same way: if a player is lynched, they are immediately eliminated unless their role says otherwise.
Post by: flabort on September 28, 2014, 11:37:58 am
I would definitely play it.
Post by: notquitethere on September 28, 2014, 12:18:29 pm
Post by: flabort on September 28, 2014, 12:24:33 pm
Bah.
Pokemondb.net
Loads faster, all the necessary information, no clutter.
Edit: Also, NQT, you should run that game again. I was just thinking about it.
Post by: 4maskwolf on September 28, 2014, 12:45:45 pm
Pokemon would be a cool theme for a game. I ran a Pokemon Fusion themed game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130761.msg4572275#msg4572275) a while back (it petered out in the end), and I went for a much simpler way of calculating battles, based on a roll with a multiplier given by the elemental strengths and weaknesses of the pokemon themselves. It was much more straightforward than have loads of stats. Having everything come down to a knowable speed stat would just lead to people who know about Bulbapedia gaming the game with their initial picks.True. Should I change it so that moves happen in standard action order unless the move has priority?
Post by: flabort on September 28, 2014, 12:56:46 pm
Speed should have some effect, though.
I dunno. *shrugs*
I would think that trying for the first action in the night would come second to getting the most useful.
So I don't think it should be changed, if someone is looking for fastest pokemon, then wouldn't there be people looking for highest attack pokemon/highest defense/something that would have X effect?
Post by: mastahcheese on September 28, 2014, 12:58:36 pm
All stats are equal, can copy anything.
Basically mew while still being legal, since I assume legendaries are off limits for balance reasons.
Post by: 4maskwolf on September 28, 2014, 01:16:36 pm
Ditto.Eh. You can choose a legendary. Doesn't mean I'll overpower you, but you can choose one.
All stats are equal, can copy anything.
Basically mew while still being legal, since I assume legendaries are off limits for balance reasons.
Post by: mastahcheese on September 30, 2014, 08:34:16 am
Now I'm super curious how I'd be spec'd into a mafia role.same
Everyone who joins the games (plus a few other people so people can't just roleclaim to find scum) has a role made of them.
Not for them, of them.
When the game begins, everyone recieves a random role (may or may not be your own) and one of those roles is declared to be scum.
It would only have one scum, so it would focus around smaller game sizes, like King Mafia does.
Any thoughts?
Post by: webadict on September 30, 2014, 08:35:25 am
New game idea: Lynch [Forum Member] now.Massclaim Day 1 breaks the game.Now I'm super curious how I'd be spec'd into a mafia role.same
Everyone who joins the games (plus a few other people so people can't just roleclaim to find scum) has a role made of them.
Not for them, of them.
When the game begins, everyone recieves a random role (may or may not be your own) and one of those roles is declared to be scum.
It would only have one scum, so it would focus around smaller game sizes, like King Mafia does.
Any thoughts?
Post by: 4maskwolf on September 30, 2014, 08:48:14 am
Post by: flabort on September 30, 2014, 08:50:08 am
Same as before, but each player has a different goal, and that is to lynch the player that has the role named after them. Some players have night kills for the purposes of being jerks (essentially scum) by making it so other people cannot win; with the side effect that they might cause themselves to not be able to win.
That way, the massclaim wouldn't break the game that way.
Post by: TolyK on September 30, 2014, 08:53:09 am
But let me run KYOSN first. :p
Post by: webadict on September 30, 2014, 09:00:38 am
How about Lynch Yourself Now, then?... But... then there's no way to lynch anyone?
Same as before, but each player has a different goal, and that is to lynch the player that has the role named after them. Some players have night kills for the purposes of being jerks (essentially scum) by making it so other people cannot win; with the side effect that they might cause themselves to not be able to win.
That way, the massclaim wouldn't break the game that way.
Post by: mastahcheese on September 30, 2014, 10:05:28 am
Maybe you have to kill your role, in addition to a generic scum team?
That sounds awkward to play, though.
Post by: Elephant Parade on September 30, 2014, 10:09:36 am
How about Have Your Own Role Misinterpreted? Everyone would submit words/phrases as usual, but the mod would twist some weird meaning/alternate definition out of the role. For example, submitting "fish" could give you the poker meaning of "fish": someone who loses money.
Post by: TolyK on September 30, 2014, 10:27:15 am
I'd just send in aardvark and smile.
@lyncher everyone: It could be done by having some people be mafia (and also lyncher targets) who have the goal of making as many people as possible lose (having the target killed loses you the game, possibly? Or dying before them.)
Post by: webadict on September 30, 2014, 09:10:44 pm
You mean like an "anti-BYOR"?You are Arthur (Anti-Brother).
I'd just send in aardvark and smile.
You win if D.W. loses.
Post by: Shakerag on October 01, 2014, 08:59:37 am
Brilliant.You mean like an "anti-BYOR"?You are Arthur (Anti-Brother).
I'd just send in aardvark and smile.
You win if D.W. loses.
Post by: TolyK on October 01, 2014, 09:11:38 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on October 26, 2014, 01:58:34 pm
After a lot of thought, I've decided to simplify the rules system for Bring Your Own Pokemon. I'm going to mimic NQT and get rid of the whole stats thing (except for hp) and make the damage based on base power and type things. Lynches still serve to eliminate a player.
Any suggestions?
Post by: TolyK on October 26, 2014, 02:29:06 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 30, 2014, 11:18:08 am
Post by: flabort on November 19, 2014, 09:52:41 am
Dice rolls to move around a board, gain coins, and a day lynch...
With something happening at night? And coins being used to buy 1-shot powers?
Post by: mastahcheese on November 19, 2014, 05:06:37 pm
At least, the night flavor would likely be minigame oriented.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 21, 2014, 09:56:29 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on November 21, 2014, 10:03:52 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 21, 2014, 10:05:23 pm
I'm not sure how much use my analysis would be, but I'm perfectly willing to give it a go if you'd trust me with your setup, seeing as I'm unlikely to be signing up for mafia games while I'm doing KYOSN.I'll send it to you tomorrow, probably.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 27, 2014, 02:10:14 pm
Post by: TolyK on November 27, 2014, 02:12:05 pm
There's also the part that too many bastard games in a row would be going on.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 27, 2014, 02:18:38 pm
I might be willing, but that would mean I couldn't play. :pThese are just for the future, I like to have a stockpile of game ideas to run.
There's also the part that too many bastard games in a row would be going on.
The real question is: do you want to review one of them, or would you rather leave the possibility of playing open?
Post by: webadict on December 02, 2014, 06:07:34 pm
Post by: TolyK on December 03, 2014, 12:21:38 am
<.<
Just kidding. ;)
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 30, 2014, 08:48:00 pm
Is it simply someone whose wincon cannot be described by a combination of the other wincons? For instance, a player who wants all third parties (except or including themselves) dead? That would be an outsider. But would an otherwise town player who needed all third parties dead to win be considered an outsider, or a towny with extra baggage? There are other similar examples, that was just one that jumped to mind when reading Webadict on aligments.
Post by: flabort on December 30, 2014, 09:20:26 pm
Post by: Toaster on December 30, 2014, 10:24:31 pm
On that note, another Third Party Mafia would be glorious.
Post by: Persus13 on December 30, 2014, 11:30:50 pm
It's just a catch-all for any other wincon that's not rigorously defined.There was one originally?
On that note, another Third Party Mafia would be glorious.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 31, 2014, 12:11:29 pm
Post by: Shakerag on January 16, 2015, 06:17:00 pm
Since Vote Mafia was all about roles that had powers which affected voting, this setup would have roles that affected action order resolution.
Post by: notquitethere on January 16, 2015, 06:23:51 pm
Post by: Shakerag on January 16, 2015, 06:40:23 pm
Obviously it would have to be power heavy for it to have much of an impact. Maybe even allowing multiple actions per night phase.
Post by: notquitethere on January 16, 2015, 08:53:41 pm
Maybe even allowing multiple actions per night phase.That would make sense. If the current ordering is a mystery though, things will be a bit of a crapshoot.
So I'm looking at CYOM 3. I've been toying with including professions: templates that would give players some powers cheaper, a free auto that can't be tampered with. Something like this:
Spoiler: Incomplete list of professions (click to show/hide)
People would still be able to build what they like, but they'd have an incentive to work with their professional skills, and on a meta-level, there'd be an incentive for players to pick a wider range of build-types. It might also be a little less overwhelming for new players than have to select from a huge list. Further, it'd be another thing people could claim/fakeclaim. What do people think to the general idea?
Post by: notquitethere on January 16, 2015, 10:10:48 pm
Contract-Your-Own-Masquerade
Contract-Your-Own-Masquerade is a variant of Choose Your Own Masquerade. It's a mafia game in which points which can be spent on powers at the beginning of each night and role powers target masks rather than players in a deep south nightless format. The four differences are:
Professions: At the beginning of the game, each player picks a profession. This gives them three powers that can be bought at regular pricing, a hidden innate auto linked to that profession, and three powers the player can never use. Players may buy powers outside of their profession for 1 point extra.
Two scum teams and 3rd parties: There are two scum teams, town have to beat both of them, scum teams have to remove all rivals. Depending on numbers, there may also be serial killers and/or survivors.
Shopping Limit: Players can only shop once per day (in their shopping session they may buy and sell as many things as they like, but cannot use any powers in the midst of shopping).
Kill Limit: Every player can only kill, poison or deliberately infect once per day, additional attempts fail.
Spoiler: List of Professions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Powers/Upgrades/Autos/Flaws (click to show/hide)
The professions are probably quite mixed in appeal, and there's undoubtedly plenty of super-broken power-combos still. Any thoughts?
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2015, 10:42:11 pm
Oh thank god an auto that stops changeling.
I think that the profession idea is a good one in theory, but the way you've implemented them... idk, something's bothering me about them. I'll think on that and get back to you.
Good, there's a shopping limit.
As much as I like the two scum teams, that combined with convert is just no. Either get rid of two scum teams or get rid of convert. I'd rather not have there be 6 scum players by the middle of D1. Also, convert for town is useless, since the odds of actually stopping a conversion are minimal.
free-buy + sap is way too powerful: get that, five points in flaws, then buy a power off someone and sap the points right back. Effectively power-steal without having to actually guess a power.
I'll probably have more comments later.
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 16, 2015, 10:49:07 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2015, 10:52:06 pm
Networker isn't a flaw. It should actually be a higher-costing thing, especially since it allows silly things like giving everyone kills.Networker...
GAH.
Bad memories.
Urk AND WHICH MORON THOUGHT GIVING EVERYONE DAYKILLS WAS A GOOD IDEA AGAIN?
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 16, 2015, 10:56:24 pm
Networker isn't a flaw. It should actually be a higher-costing thing, especially since it allows silly things like giving everyone kills.Networker...
GAH.
Bad memories.
Urk AND WHICH MORON THOUGHT GIVING EVERYONE DAYKILLS WAS A GOOD IDEA AGAIN?
IDK. Daykill 4maskwolf.
It's a shame I wasn't in that particular round, although it was hilarious to watch.
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2015, 11:01:46 pm
And by dead I mean "not playing mafia right now".
The RNG was capricious that game, I COULD have won but didn't (obviously) because Tiruin rolled up her kill.
Post by: notquitethere on January 17, 2015, 08:47:22 am
urk. I'm pretty sure half of those 10+ costers got veto'd last time we all talked about this, and the other half are just as problematic. They either won't get used or will encourage everyone to take highly obnoxious power-gain combos in order to get to them.I didn't include all the ones floated last time; I'm willing to hear some counter arguments to having high level powers. I think if people are willing to waste time early-game in order to be powerful later, that's fine.
I think that the profession idea is a good one in theory, but the way you've implemented them... idk, something's bothering me about them. I'll think on that and get back to you.I'm not 100% sold on this exact incarnation of them but I like the idea in general, I'd be interested to hear suggestions.
As much as I like the two scum teams, that combined with convert is just no. Either get rid of two scum teams or get rid of convert. I'd rather not have there be 6 scum players by the middle of D1. Also, convert for town is useless, since the odds of actually stopping a conversion are minimal.But a town player might self-convert if they were afraid of being converted by the scum. I take your point about the double danger with two scum teams. I could make it that only one use of convert works in the game at all, so we get some fun WIFOM when town players are spotted using convert so that scum can't use it.
free-buy + sap is way too powerful: get that, five points in flaws, then buy a power off someone and sap the points right back. Effectively power-steal without having to actually guess a power.But it's strictly worse than power-steal: it costs more and it's more susceptible to disruption and you don't get to pick a power you want and you need the spare points to be able to afford to afford to buy from them. I think this makes it less overpowered.
Networker isn't a flaw. It should actually be a higher-costing thing, especially since it allows silly things like giving everyone kills.Hah, yes, it's more powerful than radiant which you have to pay for. I'll amend that.
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2015, 12:10:27 pm
Buy: Do you buy it at the price it would be for you, or the price it would be for them?
Cleanse: I like the new addition that it can cleanse away poisons, it makes it useful even after you have cleansed yourself/your allies of their flaws. Taking it as non-self was kind of pointless in the previous game unless you were a scum player.
Disguise: Seems like an ability only the scum would use, since they might want to hide professions that were heavily scum-sided.
Multishop: Should probably be on the autos list.
Gossip: Similar to disguise, since they are the only ones who would really benefit from framing.
Return: Does return sell it back at full price, or only if the player has flexible? If the first, it's rather pointless.
Fortune Teller: I remember this ability, it was what allowed me to break the first CYOM after NativeForeigner used it. Been nerfed since then, obviously. Doesn't seem particularly useful, in my opinion, because it gives you an incomplete list, which doesn't really help you find scum. I actually have some thoughts on this I'm going to detail below (if I remember).
Research: Doesn't really seem all that useful, since profession generally isn't a good way to decide what alignment a person is. Maybe useful for the scum, idk.
Raise Dead: I really can't say until I've seen it in action.
Hypnotise: Same as raise dead.
Workout: is that immediately or at the end of the turn?
Changeline: ugg. I have a personal problem with this ability. It's nice to see an auto that can counter it, but still... the changeling bomb strategy is still legitimately too powerful. Also, you forgot to note the nerfing you did to it in the description (specifically the one that would prevent the innate-changeling and one-shot changeling builds). If that nerf is reinstituted, most of my problems with it go away.
Nerf: interesting... I'll have to see it in action, but it seems legit.
Deregulate: high cost for limited benefit, a given player doesn't have enough banned powers to make it worthwhile.
Poison: Does the player know that they have been poisoned?
Vote Steal: is this the one that temporarily steals their vote or the permanent one? Because the permenent one is far too powerful, given that it can be made a free power to start the game.
Reflect: The ability I would have used to break the last CYOM... self-reflect is pretty OP, since it makes you immune to all actions targeting you. This probably needs to be made to cost more or nerfed to only reflect one action and reduced cost.
Reassign: like most of the profession things, this doesn't really make a lot of difference for its cost.
Convert: Even with the thing you mentioned, it's still not worth it. It basically comes down to who happens to be online when the 24 hour no-action time at the beginning of the game happens, and that's not really fair to people who live in distant timezones.
Infect: certainly interesting...
Recall: eh? Idk.
Booby-trap: as much as I like the idea of booby-trapping changeling, this seems like it would break the game. It gets around the one-kill per player rule in some cases, and can be used on fairly obvious town or scum powers to blow the crap out of them.
Grand Swap: All this does is reset the mask situation to the beginning of the game, where you don't even know what's going on.
Pardon: Are pardons announced?
I'll get to some other stuff and my ideas for fortune teller later.
Post by: flabort on January 25, 2015, 04:30:47 pm
Well, anyways, the concept was a townless 5 faction game (iirc). Each player was a member of two factions, and each faction hated two other factions; a player couldn't be a member of two factions if they hated each other, and to win a faction had to eliminate all players belonging to the factions it hated. Each faction had 2-3 roles that would be dispersed among the players in the faction, so that certain factions could not have ability X or Y, or whatever, the point of which was to cause certain groups to dislike each other more, or whatever, and give them a reason to hunt factions that they might have been OK with. The original concept allowed for a tie between two factions, where they both win since all three factions the two of them hate (1 mutual and 2 exclusive) were both dead. However, the game ended when two opposed players both killed each other simultaneously.
So I was thinking of reworking it. Instead of a random spread, the players would be evenly seeded between the factions, of which there are now seven. This would make it 14 players if there's one of each legal pairing.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Now I need there to be abilities.
Let's say I give each member of a faction a X-shot ability. Picking pseudorandomly, Faction A gets a 2-shot doctor, Faction B gets a 1-shot kill, Faction C gets a 1-shot Jailkeeper, Faction D gets a 2-shot roleblock, E gets a 1-shot douse and a 1-shot ignite, F gets a 2-shot redirection, and G gets a 1-shot bulletproof. This is by no means the finished list.
That way the four members of the faction each have the same ability, but they also each have a separate ability that makes them unique in their team.
Also, doing some math, each faction would want 7 players dead, and each person would want 9 or 11 players dead to win.
Spoiler: by player (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: By faction (click to show/hide)
Post by: TolyK on January 25, 2015, 04:35:15 pm
It sounds a lot like a much more complicated version of my game "Shootout", though.
Post by: flabort on January 25, 2015, 04:52:14 pm
Each player only knows their own identity and half the identity of 6 players, which they know they have to kill two of those 6 so they may as well be in the dark concerning them. So they're all uninformed. But each wants to kill over half of the other players, so they're all a minority.
Multiple players can win together, such as 1, 3, and 9, which would be a victory for A, C, and E.
You're right that by messing with many of the fundamentals of the game I've changed the meta, drastically. But I still think it's enough like mafia that it wouldn't fit in the other two boards.
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 26, 2015, 07:06:40 pm
Post by: flabort on January 26, 2015, 09:53:59 pm
A) The balance. Do factions E and B have an unfair advantage, or does the extreme number of counters out there mean they have an unfair disadvantage? Should a kill not be used if it's blocked/protected against? Maybe each team should have two abilities, with half the players in the team (1 with 9 to kill and 1 with 11) getting one ability and the other half getting the other?
B) Flavor. Last time I ran a game in this vein, it was flavored as the various kinds of fanfic writers at a large convention, proving which kind of fanfic was the best (somebody role played as having a fanfic called "Pandora the explora"). But now I have no clue what to flavor this as.
Post by: notquitethere on February 02, 2015, 07:11:52 pm
Buy: Do you buy it at the price it would be for you, or the price it would be for them?Its listed price.
Return: Does return sell it back at full price, or only if the player has flexible? If the first, it's rather pointless.Only if flexible.
Doesn't seem particularly useful, in my opinion, because it gives you an incomplete list, which doesn't really help you find scum. I actually have some thoughts on this I'm going to detail below (if I remember).Still, someone bothered with it last game.
Workout: is that immediately or at the end of the turn?Immediately. Or, you know, when I next am around to PM the target.
Changeline: ugg. I have a personal problem with this ability. It's nice to see an auto that can counter it, but still... the changeling bomb strategy is still legitimately too powerful. Also, you forgot to note the nerfing you did to it in the description (specifically the one that would prevent the innate-changeling and one-shot changeling builds). If that nerf is reinstituted, most of my problems with it go away.Yep, I'll update the description
Vote Steal: is this the one that temporarily steals their vote or the permanent one? Because the permenent one is far too powerful, given that it can be made a free power to start the game.Temporary.
Reflect: The ability I would have used to break the last CYOM... self-reflect is pretty OP, since it makes you immune to all actions targeting you. This probably needs to be made to cost more or nerfed to only reflect one action and reduced cost.Remember this includes beneficial actions and there's an auto that gets around it. I'll think on it.
Convert: Even with the thing you mentioned, it's still not worth it. It basically comes down to who happens to be online when the 24 hour no-action time at the beginning of the game happens, and that's not really fair to people who live in distant timezones.With the inclusion of two scum teams/3rd parties I think I'll scrap convert again.
Booby-trap: as much as I like the idea of booby-trapping changeling, this seems like it would break the game. It gets around the one-kill per player rule in some cases, and can be used on fairly obvious town or scum powers to blow the crap out of them.It's pretty expensive though... maybe if it poisoned the players? (players should probably know they're poisoned.)
Grand Swap: All this does is reset the mask situation to the beginning of the game, where you don't even know what's going on.Ultimate troll power.
Pardon: Are pardons announced?Not sure... should they?
An update on the professions idea. I'm considering a different but similar approach. Players get licenses. Licenses cost 1 point (first one is free) and go up a point per day (D2 they're 2xp, D3 3xp etc.). A license lets players buy the powers and autos on its list. If you don't have the license, you can't buy them. This slows down some of the more broken combos. A licence can never be lost, exchanged etc. Each license has ten points worht of stuff, so with 5 starting points and 5 points of flaws you could max out your first license at the beginning if you wanted. Alternatively, you could buy lots of different licenses while they're cheap etc. The licenses would look something like this:
Apothecary License
Powers:
2 - Cleanse (One of targets flaws is removed, starting with any -2; if the target is infected/poisoned, the infection/poison is removed instead)
5 - Poison (player is killed at the end of the following day if they are not cleansed first. Players know they are poisoned.)
Auto:
3 – Hardy (you cannot be sapped or changeling'd)
Gunsmith License
Powers:
2 - Gift (give one of your powers to your target. Free- powers remain Free-.)
6 - Kill (kills target player)
Auto:
2 - Cautious (you ignore any reflects on your target)
Priest License
Powers:
2 - Protect (protects target against kills before the next lynch)
2 – Bless (Target gains a random 2-point auto)
Autos:
1 - Professional: gain +1 point every time you successfully protect a kill or cleanse poison or infection.
3 – Holy (cannot be cursed, blessings have a 50% chance of giving you an auto further down this list)
2 – Virtuous (you can't be gossiped about or blackmailed)
Judge License
Power
10 - Pardon: Your target cannot be lynched at the end of this day. Any votes on them will not count.
Trapsmith License
10 - Booby-trap (Pick a power: until the end of the day, players that use this power are killed.)
I'm a little bit in two minds about this direction. On the one hand, having the freedom to pick from a huge list is great. But the downside is that some things get picked way more than others. This might encourage a wider range of tactics. Well, that's the hope.
Post by: pisskop on February 12, 2015, 02:07:52 pm
Caught In the Middle Mafia
General
A setup that focuses upon more than the traditional scum/town conflict by including warring factions. The idea was born from looking over 4mask's game idea.
Spoiler: factions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: wincons (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Roles (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: setup (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Role stuffs (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on February 16, 2015, 11:11:07 pm
Post by: pisskop on February 17, 2015, 09:58:51 pm
15 players (7 town)(3 wolf/vamp)(2 Inquis)
Spoiler: Mashup (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Weak PR (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Gossip (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: heavy (click to show/hide)
Other ideas would likely come once it was more fleshed out. Some of them seem better than others . . . and I'm unsure about things like learning who bodyguarded whom.
Post by: Jack A T on February 25, 2015, 03:45:48 pm
I'm looking for some interesting/fun/terrible challenges to force the players to do some day for money (and potentially immunity to the lynch for one day). Ideas are very much welcome, and may end up in the game.
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 05:58:19 pm
Lier: Has to lie at least 5 times during the day.
Friend: Has to agree with everything one person says for one day.
Silent: Can only post 2 times for one day
...I cant think of any more off the top of my head, but those would mess everything up...
Post by: mastahcheese on February 25, 2015, 06:30:38 pm
Friend: Has to agree with everything one person says for one day.This could go wrong in so many ways.
Particularly if the person they agree with starts questioning them on agreeing with them, and having to still agree.
+1
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 07:54:45 pm
Post by: flabort on February 25, 2015, 08:11:45 pm
Paintball: Each player is given a color by PM during this challenge. Each post they make must include three or moretext colors, and no default color (Black in standard, white in darkling) (Red does not count, and is not a color in the challenge). If you post using a color given to another player, and they post right after you, they have just shot you and you can't talk until the challenge is over!
Post by: Toaster on February 26, 2015, 12:55:41 pm
Twitter: Maximum 140 characters per post. Cannot double post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77380.0)
Gossipy Mafia Idiot (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=45228.0): Mafia only. Must include name of all living scumbuddies in every post. (Could probably get some other good ideas from this thread.)
Anti-Plagarism: Can only vote and/or action people who have quoted a post of yours that day.
Arbitrary: Cannot vote in posts with other words. Cannot double post with a vote. (Credit to... flabort, I believe?)
Post by: Leafsnail on February 26, 2015, 06:47:35 pm
Post by: hector13 on March 02, 2015, 09:35:57 pm
Post by: Persus13 on March 16, 2015, 03:14:50 pm
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly Return!
It's 1863 and the Civil War continues to rage. In the Wild West, the unlikely duo of Blondie, the Good, and Tuco, the Ugly, continue to hunt for a chest of gold buried in a cemetery, with Angel Eyes, the Bad, continuing to pursue them in his own search for the treasure. Their search brings them to another Union military camp, where once again a team of Confederate spies are sabotaging the encampment.
This game is a normal Mafia game with the exception of three players are third party players with no interest in the main portion of the game.
This game can have between 12 and 15 players. With 12 the set up is 7 Union soldiers, 2 Confederate Saboteurs, and 3 being the GBU. 15 player set up is 9 Union, 3 COnfederate, and the 3 GBU
Union Players are Town and win when all Confederates are dead. The lynch vote is the town's main weapon. The town will get two players who have secondary abilities. These players will have a random chance of being one of several roles, a General (is able to reveal as an night action and receives an extra vote, but can't be protected after he reveals), a Captain (able to inspect players roles), an Angry Private (has a one-shot vigkill) and a Guardsman (a Jailkeeper, roleblocks and protects his target)
Confederate Players are Mafia/Scum and win when all the Union players are dead. The Confederates have access to a quicktopic and have a Night Kill. The Confederates also have one player with an extra ability, either a Captain (inspects roles) or a Saboteur (roleblocker)
The Third Parties:
The Good: This player wins by keeping the Ugly alive until D4 and surviving to the end of the game. The Good knows who the Ugly is and has a one-shot Nightkill. The Good appears Confederate to inspects
The Bad: The Bad wins by keeping himself alive until the game ends or the Good and the Ugly are dead. The Bad has a Nightkill. The Bad appears Union to inspects.
The Ugly: The Ugly wins by keeping the Good alive until D4 and surviving until the game ends. The Ugly knows the identity of the Good. On the first attempt to kill the Ugly, the kill will backfire and result in the death of the one performing the kill. The Ugly also will survive the first time he is lynched, but his identity will be revealed. The Ugly comes up as Confederate to inspects.
The Bad will leave the game upon winning. If the Good or the Ugly lose (due to the other one dying) they will leave the game. Due to the nature of the Good and the Bad's win condition the game must continue until the start of D4 for the Good and the Bad to win.
Was considering having a Secret Arms Dealer (can offer a 1-shot vig kill to another player in exchange for their vote the next day), but I felt like the game didn't really need another steady source of night kills.
I'll probably want to start this in the next week, since the only game out there right now is CYOM and that hasn't had much activity recently.
Post by: notquitethere on March 16, 2015, 03:20:56 pm
Post by: Persus13 on March 16, 2015, 03:28:12 pm
All seems reasonable enough: how does this differ from the original ruleset/what was the rationale for the changes?Original setup below. Basically I added a few more power roles to town and scum, made it slightly more balanced towards town, and modified the third party win conditions so that hopefully the three of them won't team up with the Confederates to kill the last Union player again.
This game is a normal Mafia game with the exception of three players are third party players with no interest in the main portion of the game.
This game has 13 players, of which 7 are Union soldiers, 3 are Confederate Saboteurs, and 3 are third parties.
Union Players are Town and win when all Confederates are dead. The lynch vote is the town's main weapon against third parties. The town get one power role in the form of the Union General, who can inspect a player at night to determine whether they are Union or Confederate.
Confederate Players are Mafia/Scum and win when all the Union players are dead. The Confederates have access to a quicktopic and have a Night Kill. The Confederates also have one player with an inspect ability, the Confederate General.
The Third Parties:
The Good: This player wins by keeping himself and the Ugly alive until the end of the game or until the Bad dies. The Good knows who the Ugly is and has a one-shot Nightkill. The Good comes up as Confederate to inspects
The Bad: The Bad wins by keeping himself alive until the game ends or the Good and the Ugly are dead. The Bad has a Nightkill. The Bad is essentially an SK with an additional goal. The Bad comes up as Union to inspects.
The Ugly: The Ugly wins by keeping himself and the Good alive until either the Bad dies or the game ends. The Ugly knows the identity of the Good. If the Confederates attempt to kill the Ugly, the kill will backfire and kill the one performing the kill. The Ugly also will survive the first time he is lynched, but his identity will be revealed. The Ugly comes up as Confederate to inspects.
When a third party wins or loses, and are still alive, they remain in the game, but with the Union win condition.
Post by: notquitethere on March 16, 2015, 03:39:12 pm
Also, if your aim was to stop that, I'm not sure how the changes achieve what you think they achieve: GBU can still team up at the start of D4 with scum to steamroller the unionists.
Post by: Persus13 on March 16, 2015, 04:19:28 pm
But that was a beautiful ending.Except by D4 there will be 2 or 3 players left in the game using the 12 player set up assuming all kills/lynches go through.
Also, if your aim was to stop that, I'm not sure how the changes achieve what you think they achieve: GBU can still team up at the start of D4 with scum to steamroller the unionists.
Post by: notquitethere on March 16, 2015, 04:49:17 pm
Ah, that makes some amount of sense then. Also, I was going to say "what's to stop GBU + scum teaming up D2 when they're even in numbers with town?", but with all of town's power-jam, that sort of early team-up seems untenable.But that was a beautiful ending.Except by D4 there will be 2 or 3 players left in the game using the 12 player set up assuming all kills/lynches go through.
Also, if your aim was to stop that, I'm not sure how the changes achieve what you think they achieve: GBU can still team up at the start of D4 with scum to steamroller the unionists.
Post by: Cheeetar on March 16, 2015, 11:12:28 pm
Edit: Oh, if the confederates try to kill him. My bad.
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 17, 2015, 08:17:58 am
I'm totes not just biased because I was confederate general that game.
Post by: Persus13 on March 18, 2015, 05:00:51 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 23, 2015, 05:41:46 pm
Post by: Persus13 on March 23, 2015, 06:16:50 pm
Been reading back through old games and we need more games with posting restrictions like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=78826.msg2220784#msg2220784).
FUCK THIS. FUCK EVERYONE. I AM A WAFFLE.
What the hell was going on? Was swearing and quitting a post restriction?
Post by: Jack A T on March 23, 2015, 06:29:07 pm
As for post restrictions like that, I'm still working on Bad Reality Show Mafia (though progress isn't likely to be made until after essay season ends).
Post by: notquitethere on March 23, 2015, 06:49:34 pm
FUCK.
I think I need to quit mafia for a while, because god damn, you'd think somebody would have a hard time making so many stupid fucking mistakes in a row.
FUCK.
Fuck that noise, I quit
So, as some of you know, I'm leaving the forum. As far as I know, for good.
Post by: Shakerag on March 23, 2015, 10:26:36 pm
Been reading back through old games and we need more games with posting restrictions like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=78826.msg2220784#msg2220784).Wow. Reminds me of the dialogue from House of the Dead: Overkill.
By which, I mean that it's hilarious.
Post by: webadict on March 30, 2015, 10:15:16 pm
Webadict, you still willing to take a look at game ideas?I'll look at them, but it'll probably be like months from the point you want an answer.
Post by: Jack A T on March 30, 2015, 10:20:06 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 30, 2015, 11:04:27 pm
/me begins rolling on the floor laughingWebadict, you still willing to take a look at game ideas?I'll look at them, but it'll probably be like months from the point you want an answer.
Hehehe oh man I didn't even remember asking that.
Post by: webadict on March 31, 2015, 09:07:36 am
Oh, hey, Webadict. Who won KYOSN?Did that not get resolved? I mean, I can look through notes or whatever, but I don't quite know if I'll have the true answer.
Sounds about right. Just got bored and figured I'd check on how the board was doing, saw my name, and figured I'd reply./me begins rolling on the floor laughingWebadict, you still willing to take a look at game ideas?I'll look at them, but it'll probably be like months from the point you want an answer.
Hehehe oh man I didn't even remember asking that.
Post by: Shakerag on March 31, 2015, 12:05:03 pm
Considering TolyK up and disappeared on us ... yeah, no resolution.Oh, hey, Webadict. Who won KYOSN?Did that not get resolved? I mean, I can look through notes or whatever, but I don't quite know if I'll have the true answer.
Post by: webadict on March 31, 2015, 08:20:10 pm
Alright, let's check.Considering TolyK up and disappeared on us ... yeah, no resolution.Oh, hey, Webadict. Who won KYOSN?Did that not get resolved? I mean, I can look through notes or whatever, but I don't quite know if I'll have the true answer.
Post by: notquitethere on April 07, 2015, 05:27:02 pm
Post by: zombie urist on April 07, 2015, 05:54:54 pm
Post by: Jack A T on April 07, 2015, 06:00:16 pm
I'll try to get the info together soon.
Post by: notquitethere on April 07, 2015, 06:06:11 pm
I've been thinking about examining the new BM setup games so far (gathering data and all that). I was going to focus more on when, how, and how often ICs die, but the info I'll be gathering will probably be of use.Cool. I look forward to it!
I'll try to get the info together soon.
Post by: Jack A T on April 07, 2015, 09:40:02 pm
Points of note:
*ICs are scum much less often than expected with random chance: 11.5% of ICs were scum, as opposed to the 22.2% expected.
*Scum has won 9/13 games (69.2%).
*The average number of replacements is 3.1. 15% of replacements are of ICs (who are, again, 22.2% of the players).
*Scum lynches D1 are a bit below what's expected from random lynching: 15.3% instead of 22.2%.
*In only 1 of the 13 games (one of the 10 with both ICs as town), both ICs died before D3. The much-feared rapid IC death rush rarely happens.
*In fact, 43.4% of town ICs make it to endgame (live past the last lynch), compared to 26.4% of other townies. Without the last lynch counted, it's 47.8% to 38.2%, still a substantial difference in the favour of the ICs.
So, town ICs tend to survive more than town newbies; ICs are almost never all dead by D3 (scum kills others, players lynch others...); ICs are replaced almost as often, proportionally, as non-ICs; ICs tend to be town more often than expected, and scum has won almost 70% of BMs under the new setup.
I think the scum lean is less due to the setup than it is due to a few other things: BMs are full of newbies (who have a hard time scumhunting and are hard to scumhunt), some newbies are not very active, ICs are often not very active, and replacements are very common.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 07, 2015, 11:07:59 pm
Post by: notquitethere on April 08, 2015, 05:10:52 am
Post by: Jack A T on April 08, 2015, 06:47:36 pm
Those are interesting results Jack. Did you reach any fresh conclusion about ICs?Hard to determine much beyond what I've said. The main point: ICs live a lot more than we tend to think they do.
To help figure out why they survive, I decided to add the reasons for each N1 kill to the table: N1 is before any rolecopping has happened. Basically, there's usually perceived to be a bigger problem (threat or near-clear player) or safer target for the scum than ICs. Sometimes, specific ICs aren't even seen as major threats to the scum (lynchable, foolable, inactive, or just on the wrong track). An urge to avoid killing ICs, at least N1, can also be seen in a couple cases. In the cases where ICs are killed, they are generally seen as major threats. Nothing too surprising, but certainly a weaker view of IC play than expected (even for N1).
Honestly, we don't have much information on the impact of ICs. Perhaps a standardized post-game feedback questionnaire would be useful.
Post by: 4maskwolf on April 15, 2015, 09:29:06 am
Nothing too surprising, but certainly a weaker view of IC play than expected (even for N1).I have several theories on this, but they mostly involve reasons why our meta is flawed and why we need to move on from the old ways of doing things, since the scum have learned them and can abuse that. If you all really want, I can post my opinions on that at some point.
Quote
Honestly, we don't have much information on the impact of ICs. Perhaps a standardized post-game feedback questionnaire would be useful.Feedback is always good.
Post by: Toaster on April 15, 2015, 01:27:40 pm
Nothing too surprising, but certainly a weaker view of IC play than expected (even for N1).I have several theories on this, but they mostly involve reasons why our meta is flawed and why we need to move on from the old ways of doing things, since the scum have learned them and can abuse that. If you all really want, I can post my opinions on that at some point.
I'd like to hear them.
Post by: Persus13 on April 15, 2015, 01:33:24 pm
I would also like to hear this expanded on, with data and stuff if you can provide it.Nothing too surprising, but certainly a weaker view of IC play than expected (even for N1).I have several theories on this, but they mostly involve reasons why our meta is flawed and why we need to move on from the old ways of doing things, since the scum have learned them and can abuse that. If you all really want, I can post my opinions on that at some point.
General question: How important is voting in your first post of the game? I don't use this anymore because I have found it to be completely ineffective in finding scum, but I have been questioned about this a lot in previous games and was wondering what other people thought about that.
Post by: Jack A T on April 15, 2015, 01:59:55 pm
I have several theories on this, but they mostly involve reasons why our meta is flawed and why we need to move on from the old ways of doing things, since the scum have learned them and can abuse that. If you all really want, I can post my opinions on that at some point.Sure. Could be useful.
General question: How important is voting in your first post of the game? I don't use this anymore because I have found it to be completely ineffective in finding scum, but I have been questioned about this a lot in previous games and was wondering what other people thought about that.With the current meta, I see the initial randomish votes as having little purpose. Everyone knows such votes are non-threatening, and everyone knows they'll be gone by the end of the day. I could see several randomish votes on a single person spooking them a bit, but that almost never happens. There's rarely much to analyze about specific votes, too, especially with the number of people who make truly random votes.
If the votes were more threatening (and, for that matter, less random), they could probably be more useful.
We should probably move these discussions over to the Mafia Theory thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=132415.0) soon.
Feedback is always good.I might try setting up a draft questionnaire after my exams.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 21, 2015, 02:21:48 pm
1 Protagonist: Has a one-shot Rescue action. May use on any player during any Night; if target is Kidnapped Princess the Protagonist & Princess win. If target is Bad Guy then Protagonist dies and Bad Guys win.
7 Bad Guys: Can win by lynching Protagonist during Day or if Protagonist loses during Night. Need to pretend to be Princesses to prevent Protagonist from making right choice.
1 Kidnapped Princess: Must get rescued by Protagonist to win; wins with Protagonist.
Post by: notquitethere on May 21, 2015, 02:31:39 pm
Post by: Jack A T on May 21, 2015, 02:39:24 pm
Post by: notquitethere on May 21, 2015, 03:18:43 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 21, 2015, 03:34:47 pm
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 21, 2015, 03:38:45 pm
Post by: notquitethere on May 22, 2015, 12:33:47 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 23, 2015, 06:59:02 am
Does the Princess know the Protagonist? Do the Bad Guys know the Princess?
I was thinking either nobody knows who anyone is, or only the Bad Guys know who the Princess is. A problem with the former idea is that everybody would become very reluctant to lynch, because there is no incentive to do so (the Bad Guys want to keep as many people/distractors alive as possible and the Protagonist wants to avoid lynching the Princess). It's probably better to have the Bad Guys know who the Princess is to prevent this.
What happens if the princess is lynched?
The Bad Guys and the Protagonist lose (and so does the Princess, of course). Currently that is equivalent to having everybody lose.
The aim of this setup is partly so that more players than just the Mafia (or their equivalent) need to pretend to be someone they are not - the Bad Guys need to pretend to be Princesses, and the Protagonist needs to pretend to be a Bad Guy pretending to be a Princess.
At this point the Princess is not pretending to be anyone - that is not such a huge problem, as it is sort of in line with what would happen in the stereotypical video game, but it might be interesting to add the following role, possibly to replace a Bad Guy or as an extra player:
1 Jealous Boyfriend: May kill one player each night. Wins if the player killed is either the Protagonist or the Princess.
That may not solve the problem, though: The Boyfriend may simply claim and team up with the Bad Guys to kill the Protagonist. I'm not sure what the Princess would do in that situation.
Post by: Teneb on May 25, 2015, 09:30:58 am
Post by: notquitethere on May 25, 2015, 09:40:34 am
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 25, 2015, 10:05:57 am
Team 1 tries to kill team 2
Team 2 tries to kill team 3
Team 3 tries to kill team 1.
But they don't even know who their teammates are UNTIL one of them dies. So if one member of team 1 dies, the other two get a chat together. The game ends when one team is completely eliminated. The only problem that I can see is if the game ends up in a 1v1v1 situation because nobody would vote for somebody else. Anybody know how to fix that?
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 25, 2015, 04:34:44 pm
PPE: Of course, it would probably deadlock at 1v1v2 before that. That situation would be technically winnable for the team of 2 if the teams of one don't know who anyone else is, but it would be difficult to pull off. In that case, I'd probably just make it a win condition for the team of 2 and end the game. Or make 1v1v1 a win condition for the three remaining people and then watch the drama.
Post by: origamiscienceguy on June 05, 2015, 08:25:50 am
There are three teams of three people each. At first, they don't know who anyone is.
Team one wins if team 2 is eliminated. Team 2 wins if team 3 is eliminated, and team 3 wins if team 1 is eliminated. when a team gets down to two players, the remaining players get a private chat. When there is only one player left, he/she gets a night kill. There is also a serial killer who wins if he/she survives until one team gets knocked down to 1 player, and then leaves the game. The serial killer has a night kill.
Any crippling flaws?
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2015, 08:46:26 am
Post by: Toaster on June 05, 2015, 08:56:27 am
Post by: origamiscienceguy on June 05, 2015, 09:11:18 am
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2015, 09:28:43 am
Maybe have the SK win and have everyone else lose when the game ends if he is still alive?
Post by: origamiscienceguy on June 05, 2015, 09:32:28 am
But then the SK could just claim and then not kill.I suppose that would work, then the people would try to kill him. Good idea.
Maybe have the SK win and have everyone else lose when the game ends if he is still alive?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 04, 2015, 06:55:08 pm
My first idea: the players are mages studying to become full wizards at the Quadrivium, but three of their numbers are traitors, of the Malus sort. What would make this game unique: each player has an element, and kills made with an element display clearly(most of the time) using that element. Players can learn other players' elements easier than alignments. Most roles don't have active abilities granted as part of the role(the third-party being an exception), but the players do have items, and sometimes role adjectives, to aid them(or hinder for some of the adjectives.) I've got full setup information(mostly) that I'm willing to discuss with any experienced player. 13 players.
My second idea: this one is one that would be called "bastard", and it is such that I don't want to discuss this in the open. 9 players.
My third idea: Rules Mafia. Constructed like normal mafia, but with one twist: each player has a game-changing rule associated with them, which toggles when they die. It may start true or false(active or inactive). Three of the players(two mafia, one town) can change their rule's on or off state during the night. Nine players.
Post by: Persus13 on July 14, 2015, 09:40:30 pm
Among those gathered in the rather smelly locker room was Loud Whispers, named after his peculiar way of speech. Emuridan, from where he hailed was a notable source of Luchabowl contestants. This year, however, only two competitors from that land were participating, Loud Whispers himself, and a dreaded an mysterious fighter known only as The Miroslav.Well, now I want to see a CK2 Miroslav based Mafia game. Now I just need to figure out how.
(Context: Loud Whispers played a Crusader Kings II game where he replaced every ruler with one of his Serbian Miroslav dynasty. Then he did the same thing in the Game of Thrones mod for the game, and now he's going for it in a post-apocalyptic America mod)
Post by: fillipk on August 31, 2015, 11:14:51 pm
Post by: Shakerag on September 01, 2015, 08:53:47 am
any suggestionsPlay a few more games, maybe run a beginner's or mountainous game first to get your feet wet.
Post by: Mephansteras on September 01, 2015, 11:43:45 am
Post by: zombie urist on September 01, 2015, 12:17:32 pm
Post by: fillipk on September 01, 2015, 12:38:39 pm
Post by: Jack A T on September 02, 2015, 01:05:59 am
Post by: flabort on September 19, 2015, 11:16:37 pm
I remember there was a thread that I read that explained exactly what a bastard mod is. I can't seem to find it anymore, and that frustrates me. Does anyone know where I can find that wonderful description?It would be this thread, first post, in the spoiler. My post should put this at the top, since you're browsing random stickies in search of this thread you should see this post.
((Insert something witty here.))
Post by: origamiscienceguy on September 24, 2015, 09:15:03 pm
There will be 2 scum, and 9 town. Each townie, however will be using another randomly selected townie to vote for them, without knowing whose vote they have.. The scum will use their own votes as usual. This only really comes into effect when a townie dies. At that point, whoever has the dead townies vote will no longer work, although they will not know that at first. The vote will not appear on the final tally, or be considered for the lynch. Obviously, the dead townie will not be able to use their vote, even if the townie that their vote comes from is still alive.
This has two effects: having a townie killed will often result in the town losing two votes, but it also creates an interesting way of confirming townies, since scum vote for themselves. The scum will have two abilities, a night kill, and a one-shot shuffle. The shuffle is a day ability that must have unanimous consensus among the scum team that will change who's vote the townies are using. It will come into effect after the votes have been placed, but right before the votes are tallied. The town will not be aware when this happens. It will only shuffle votes between the still-living townies so it is only useful in certain circumstances.
I think this will be interesting because it will require alot of thinking for both the town and the scum. If there is a massive flaw, please let me know. Cheers!
Post by: TolyK on October 14, 2015, 08:13:13 am
All bastard games are harder than what the creator envisions....
Basically, this.
Twitter: Maximum 140 characters per post. Cannot double post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77380.0)That game was fun. Totally not biased.
What are everyone's opinions on publicly available information in a game, i.e. "Tiruin is mafia" being declared at the beginning of the game, as part of the setup.
Post by: fillipk on October 14, 2015, 09:12:57 am
The problem is people would be cautious because you told them this
Post by: notquitethere on October 14, 2015, 09:19:27 am
Post by: Mephansteras on October 14, 2015, 09:20:56 am
Post by: notquitethere on October 14, 2015, 09:35:26 am
Post by: origamiscienceguy on October 14, 2015, 10:14:32 am
Hello everybody! Long time, no see. I have an idea for an interesting mafia game.
There will be 2 scum, and 9 town. Each townie, however will be using another randomly selected townie to vote for them, without knowing whose vote they have.. The scum will use their own votes as usual. This only really comes into effect when a townie dies. At that point, whoever has the dead townies vote will no longer work, although they will not know that at first. The vote will not appear on the final tally, or be considered for the lynch. Obviously, the dead townie will not be able to use their vote, even if the townie that their vote comes from is still alive.
This has two effects: having a townie killed will often result in the town losing two votes, but it also creates an interesting way of confirming townies, since scum vote for themselves. The scum will have two abilities, a night kill, and a one-shot shuffle. The shuffle is a day ability that must have unanimous consensus among the scum team that will change who's vote the townies are using. It will come into effect after the votes have been placed, but right before the votes are tallied. The town will not be aware when this happens. It will only shuffle votes between the still-living townies so it is only useful in certain circumstances.
I think this will be interesting because it will require alot of thinking for both the town and the scum. If there is a massive flaw, please let me know. Cheers!
Post by: flabort on October 14, 2015, 11:33:07 am
Post by: TolyK on October 14, 2015, 11:45:38 am
Have you tried playing it out on paper with random strategies (i.e. everyone votes randomly, scum vote for a random townie)? That should give a good idea of the ratio. Remember that 1 dead mafioso is 50% of the scum team in your case, which would basically make it impossible to win for scum in the early game. However, it's very possible to have a confirmed scum victory on turn 4 (5?) given townies might have no votes left by that point.
Basically, the "high mortality" makes this game very snowball-y.
Post by: origamiscienceguy on October 14, 2015, 11:54:35 am
I think the town/(scum+town) ratio is too high. 9/11 is T-sided.I have run a few simulations and it was usually either a definite win by town or a definite win by scum. But almost evenly split.
Have you tried playing it out on paper with random strategies (i.e. everyone votes randomly, scum vote for a random townie)? That should give a good idea of the ratio. Remember that 1 dead mafioso is 50% of the scum team in your case, which would basically make it impossible to win for scum in the early game. However, it's very possible to have a confirmed scum victory on turn 4 (5?) given townies might have no votes left by that point.
Basically, the "high mortality" makes this game very snowball-y.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 14, 2015, 12:01:51 pm
Post by: origamiscienceguy on October 14, 2015, 12:18:33 pm
Post by: H4zardZ1 on October 24, 2015, 09:01:52 pm
There is 2 teams with 2 members trying to kill the other team. A member team could NK, but the other could only inspect(only town or not)+track the targetted person.
About the slots, 3 or 4 mafia players, 2 players on team 1, 2 players on team 2 and 9 Townie players.
Any ideas to balance that? If the teams mix up well with townie, it is effectively 3 or 4 mafia v 2 vig, 2 cop and 9 other townies. Do i need to reduce the number of townies or what?
Post by: Mephansteras on October 28, 2015, 01:01:20 pm
In general I'm going to be going for less actual post corruption this time and more for deliberate changes as well as an idea of spreading 'corruption' that isn't content corruption but color based.
The basic idea is that the Scum Team are trying to corrupt everything for some purpose. Instead of a normal night kill, they will have the ability to Corrupt posts. That corruption can then spread to other posts.
Corruption will have three levels - Mild, Serious, and Dangerous.
Directly Corrupted posts will have Serious corruption, and any posts quoted by that post will have Mild Corruption. A post that is corrupted again will increase in severity. A post that is at Dangerous corruption that is Corrupted again will Kill the poster.
The town will have powers that can stop, slow, or cure Corruption.
There will also be some players who have the ability to Change aspects of a previous post. This might be changing around the Names of players in a post or swapping some quotes out with quotes from different posts.
Post by: TolyK on October 28, 2015, 01:05:14 pm
I also almost forgot you have those god-powers.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 28, 2015, 01:10:38 pm
My instant question is: how do you do post-editing for the players? Do you with your god-powers do it (most likely :P) or do you PM them what they have to do?
I also almost forgot you have those god-powers.
I have god powers. In THE SYSTEM I was actually editing some stuff without the players knowing they were causing it.
Post by: notquitethere on October 28, 2015, 05:21:06 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 28, 2015, 11:16:27 pm
To everyone reading this thread: I am the sort of person with huge numbers of game ideas and designs but insufficient time to run them.
That includes mafia ideas.
Would anyone like for me to design a mafia game for them?
Post by: H4zardZ1 on October 31, 2015, 06:21:51 pm
I came up with a idea, but i'm not sure how(and if) will this work.Hello?
There is 2 teams with 2 members trying to kill the other team. A member team could NK, but the other could only inspect(only town or not)+track the targetted person.
About the slots, 3 or 4 mafia players, 2 players on team 1, 2 players on team 2 and 9 Townie players.
Any ideas to balance that? If the teams mix up well with townie, it is effectively 3 or 4 mafia v 2 vig, 2 cop and 9 other townies. Do i need to reduce the number of townies or what?
Post by: Mephansteras on October 31, 2015, 07:28:25 pm
I came up with a idea, but i'm not sure how(and if) will this work.Hello?
There is 2 teams with 2 members trying to kill the other team. A member team could NK, but the other could only inspect(only town or not)+track the targetted person.
About the slots, 3 or 4 mafia players, 2 players on team 1, 2 players on team 2 and 9 Townie players.
Any ideas to balance that? If the teams mix up well with townie, it is effectively 3 or 4 mafia v 2 vig, 2 cop and 9 other townies. Do i need to reduce the number of townies or what?
Well, with two Mafia teams there is going to be a lot of crossfire. I wouldn't put any Vig's in that set-up, personally. Otherwise you're going to have a really short game. Two Docs, maybe. Since both Scum teams will legitimately be hunting the other team it is actually really tough for town to figure out who is Mafia, but the crossfire hits to both teams can balance that out.
Post by: TheDarkStar on October 31, 2015, 10:31:56 pm
I came up with a idea, but i'm not sure how(and if) will this work.Hello?
There is 2 teams with 2 members trying to kill the other team. A member team could NK, but the other could only inspect(only town or not)+track the targetted person.
About the slots, 3 or 4 mafia players, 2 players on team 1, 2 players on team 2 and 9 Townie players.
Any ideas to balance that? If the teams mix up well with townie, it is effectively 3 or 4 mafia v 2 vig, 2 cop and 9 other townies. Do i need to reduce the number of townies or what?
Well, with two Mafia teams there is going to be a lot of crossfire. I wouldn't put any Vig's in that set-up, personally. Otherwise you're going to have a really short game. Two Docs, maybe. Since both Scum teams will legitimately be hunting the other team it is actually really tough for town to figure out who is Mafia, but the crossfire hits to both teams can balance that out.
One similar setup that comes to mind is Two-Fold C9++ (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Two-Fold_C9%2B%2B), although it differs from H4zard's idea because town power roles that only affect one scum team or the other.
Post by: fillipk on November 29, 2015, 03:51:45 am
4 townies
3 trackers
1 Jester with the power to visit someone
1 serial killer with 3 powers; Kill someone, Visit someone and have that person kill someone, 1 shot visit someone have them visit someone who then visits someone and kills that person
If the sk is lynched day 1 the Jester will become the SK,
I've done some math and it looks like it would be balanced but I'm not sure so any concerns/improvement suggestions are welcome.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 29, 2015, 03:18:10 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 29, 2015, 03:23:40 pm
This just may be my opinion, but I'd make one of the 4 townies a guardian(protector) instead.
Post by: Toaster on November 29, 2015, 03:31:01 pm
Post by: fillipk on November 29, 2015, 05:02:30 pm
If the SK uses the visit (or double visit) power, do any of the other players in the chain know what happened? If the SK uses it on the Jester who is already visiting someone else, what happens? What do the Trackers see in that case?Nobody in the chain will know this happened, and the jester will still visit normally, trackers will see who visited the person they watched (maybe I'm using the wrong role)
Looks like no Mafia, yes...The problem with this is the sk only has "one life" so it's a bigger deal if he is denied a night kill since he is working alone.
This just may be my opinion, but I'd make one of the 4 townies a guardian(protector) instead.
Post by: flabort on November 29, 2015, 05:25:10 pm
Perhaps you could use two of each?
Post by: Toaster on November 29, 2015, 05:27:14 pm
If the SK uses the visit (or double visit) power, do any of the other players in the chain know what happened? If the SK uses it on the Jester who is already visiting someone else, what happens? What do the Trackers see in that case?Nobody in the chain will know this happened, and the jester will still visit normally, trackers will see who visited the person they watched (maybe I'm using the wrong role)
If you are using watchers, then what happens if the Jester visits the person who the SK then makes the Jester visit? Does the jester show once or twice?
Post by: fillipk on November 29, 2015, 07:07:16 pm
twiceIf the SK uses the visit (or double visit) power, do any of the other players in the chain know what happened? If the SK uses it on the Jester who is already visiting someone else, what happens? What do the Trackers see in that case?Nobody in the chain will know this happened, and the jester will still visit normally, trackers will see who visited the person they watched (maybe I'm using the wrong role)
If you are using watchers, then what happens if the Jester visits the person who the SK then makes the Jester visit? Does the jester show once or twice?
Trackers (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Tracker) see who their target visited. Watchers (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Watcher) see who visited their target.Or two of 1 and 1 of the other, because it is 1 killer.
Perhaps you could use two of each?
Post by: Mephansteras on November 29, 2015, 08:53:56 pm
Jesters kinda suck as a role, really. I've never really found a good spot for them.
Post by: fillipk on November 29, 2015, 10:04:02 pm
Post by: origamiscienceguy on November 29, 2015, 11:21:24 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 29, 2015, 11:26:14 pm
Post by: fillipk on November 29, 2015, 11:28:52 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 29, 2015, 11:54:31 pm
But yeah, if the last person to vote him/her lost his/her vote or died that could work.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 30, 2015, 06:59:16 am
Post by: Megggas on November 30, 2015, 11:17:21 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 01, 2015, 09:09:37 am
Post by: TolyK on December 01, 2015, 11:01:36 am
Perhaps you could have a team of 2 jesters that only win if both of them die.Oooooooh.
Post by: fillipk on December 01, 2015, 11:52:37 am
Post by: hops on December 16, 2015, 01:43:29 am
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 16, 2015, 06:56:12 am
Post by: hops on December 16, 2015, 06:57:12 am
Post by: TolyK on December 16, 2015, 07:13:49 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 16, 2015, 11:40:30 pm
In the game, themed around a school of battle magic:
There are 3 town power roles, 2 scum with shotted powers, and 4 basically vanilla townies.
What sets this game aside from the others is Elements:
Each player is assigned a single element(pyromancy, geomancy, electromancy).
When a kill is made, it has a specific way it shows up once the day comes(as in, the corpse has been burned/appears to have received electrical burn marks/looks bashed beyond belief).
The scum receive Elements also.
In addition to the lynch, the town gets a public element inspection decided via a secondary vote.
This can lead to interesting ways of confirming people as town(no kill has come as electricity, Toonyguy is electric element, he must not be scum).
Power roles:
Spoiler: Like So (click to show/hide)
Post by: origamiscienceguy on December 17, 2015, 08:58:58 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 17, 2015, 09:18:17 am
The Dark Elementalist can preform a kill without using his own element, and thus blame it on a townie that had that element publicly revealed or inspected by the Fell Inquisitor.
And- "Okay guys, we know that a fire user is scum!" That narrows down the scum, unless of course the Dark Elementalist used his power...
Or if the Thaumaturge was the one who did it...
The elements system may be of more benefit to the townies, but there are deceptions available by using it.
However, I see your point. Slight revision to the Dark Elementalist:
Dark Elementalist:
Once in the game you may make a night kill with an element of your choice rather than your own one.
Also once in the game, day or night, you may mark a player with an element of your choice. If they are element scanned in any way, the result will be the element you chose. Their role flip is not effected.
Post by: origamiscienceguy on December 18, 2015, 01:54:15 pm
Post by: fillipk on December 18, 2015, 02:05:44 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 18, 2015, 03:53:48 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 24, 2016, 06:38:28 pm
1* Basic Rules and Principles.
1#. A player may place a green vote or a red vote. If the majority of votes at the end of the day are green, the player with the most green votes on him/her is placed into Stasis(cannot act or be acted upon in the following night). If the majority of votes at the end of the day are red, the player with the most red votes on him/her is killed. If there is a tie for red and green votes(the number of red votes is equal to the number of green votes), neither effect will take place. If there is a tie for the number of votes on players([playerone] has the same number of [color(whichever color was chosen to be activated)] votes on him/her as [playertwo] does), no effect will take place either. Players may not vote in red on the first day.
2#. Actions may go forwards in time or back in time. If an action is sent forwards in time, the player that preformed said action is not informed of the result until the phase in which that action is preformed is reached. If an action is sent back in time, the player that preformed said action is informed of the result as soon as it is resolved. Whenever an action is sent forwards or backwards in time, it enters the action resolution slot that the action would take up if it did not go forwards or backwards in time, only in the day/night chosen to send the action to.
3#. If an action sent forwards or backwards in time would cause a paradox, the action fails to take place.
4#. At the end of each night, for their action resolution PMs, all players that are alive will be sent a timeline informing them of what they did on each and every day/night that has been resolved.
5#. Night actions may be only used from N1 onwards, but night actions may be sent back in time to N0 onwards, but not further back than that.
6#. Information survives time travel. If a player has posts in the thread, and is killed N0, he/she will not be required to remove said posts, but his/her votes in said posts will not count, and he/she will no longer be able to post, being dead. Moreover, a player that had an information-giving action succeed on a night, but have it be caused to fail as a result of a night action in a further onwards night, he/she will not be required to act as though he/she does not have said information.
7#. Resolution. Adjust the timelines of all players as necessary as per night/day actions. For instance, if a player is killed N0, all of his/her actions in the following days and nights will cease to exist, and you will need to adjust the timelines of all the other players accordingly. This may result in time paradoxes- see 1*3#. In addition, a player previously killed or lynched on a given day or night may be no longer dead as a result of said player’s actions having not occurred…
8#. If a player is brought back to life as a result of time shenanigans, any nights that that player did not submit actions for as a result of being dead are occupied, for that player, with “time sickness”. The player will not submit actions for said nights.
Any flaws noticed?
Post by: notquitethere on January 25, 2016, 04:56:03 pm
Could the mafia kill someone who cast the deciding vote on their partner in the past to resurrect their partner? If so, that'd be cool. Suggestion: make all power N-shot, and allow players to spend uses of their powers to effect days other than the present.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 25, 2016, 06:56:35 pm
Could the mafia kill someone who cast the deciding vote on their partner in the past to resurrect their partner? If so, that'd be cool.Definitely. My original design called for 9 players and a Chronokiller(time traveling SK), but as you might imagine, a mafia team might lead to more !!fun!!...
Suggestion: make all power N-shot, and allow players to spend uses of their powers to effect days other than the present.I was thinking more along the lines of Chronoenergy, which can be spent to send actions forward or backwards in time.
~~~
In addition to that... I was thinking of designing this to be something like Paranormal Mafia in that players can receive Items for special effects...
Okay, let's suppose 13 players... 2 or 3(the ability for mafia to exploit time to bring back their dead might make two a good idea) Chronos Acolytes, 6 or 7 Time Agents(generic town players, may come with items), and 3 or 4 Specialists(come with fewer items if any, but a non-shotted ability each, of sorts, for instance a Stasis Specialist might generate stasis fields around people, in the past or future, preventing them from being acted upon or acting...)... perhaps throw in a Corrupt Time Agent survivor... like so.
~~~
Definitely a ridiculous headache to mod. Definitely. I'm going to get some more modding experience before I even attempt to run some monstrosity like this.
Post by: origamiscienceguy on January 25, 2016, 06:59:45 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 25, 2016, 07:22:56 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 22, 2016, 09:00:53 pm
Standard hammers are active(if a player has a majority of players voting for him/her, that player's lynched and the day ends), and the day still has a time limit, after which the player with the most votes on him/her will be lynched(except with a tie).
What makes this system better is a clause thing to protect against scum quick hammering on LYLO/MYLO: when it's MYLO/LYLO, hammers are disabled.
In addition, players are not told(at all) if the hammer is active or not, to protect freely giving town the information that it's LYLO/MYLO.
What do you think?
Post by: notquitethere on February 22, 2016, 09:15:12 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 01, 2016, 09:31:00 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 01, 2016, 10:56:04 am
- rich get richer combos
- excessive role theft of players who make insecure builds
- too much administration needed by the mod
Post by: notquitethere on March 01, 2016, 11:49:57 am
Post by: TolyK on March 01, 2016, 01:22:29 pm
Here's an IRL setup I've been using for over 2 years with my friends which I made up for the GM to be able to play as well, with small numbers of players.
2-10 players, best with 4-5 or 7-9.
Played with playing cards or specially made ones.
There are two kinds of kills: "mark" kills and "flip" kills. Mafia and voting are "mark" kills; Joker, Vig, Vengeful and Bomb are "flip" kills.
Roles:
- Mafia x2 - Mark kill
- Joker - Flip kill OR role switch
- Necromancer - Revive player
- Doctor - Stop a Mark kill
- Redirector (Bus driver) - Redirect
- Vigilante (Dayvig) - Day Flip kill
- Vengeful - Kill one more after killed during day
- Bomb - Flip kill whoever Flip'd
- Townie (Vanilla) - Loser who just votes
Turn structure:
N0:
- Mafia puts Mark next to who they want to kill (note: can be self)
- Doctor sees who is marked, can remove mark to center
- Joker can Flip kill* someone OR swap any two role cards
- Redirector redirects up to 1 kill, i.e. moves mark from one player to another OR closes a Flip'd card and Flips another*
D1:
- (check deaths, check roles, discuss)
- lynch (can vote for no-lynch, tie votes end as no-lynch)
N1 and onward:
- (everyone sleeps and wakes up at their respective moments, unless Necro has been killed off already)
- Necro can revive someone by putting back player card face-down; that player becomes a zombie, wins with Necro, can immediately action that night, dies when Necro dies; role can swap, zombie status remains on player
- (same as N0)
D2 and onward:
- (same as D1, except:)
- Vigilante can, at any moment before the lynch, show his card to everyone and Flip* a player's card
Passive roles:
Vengeful: when killed during the day, can kill any additional player
Bomb:
*whenever a player Flips a card, if it's the Bomb, they MUST Flip their own card as well.
Post by: notquitethere on March 06, 2016, 04:49:25 pm
If anyone's interested, I've been working on the latest variant of Choose Your Own Mafia: Choose Your Own Magic (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WMdY73jtJ8kDNQrJqSZcuE04ypqzCq0gM-gwxcBcbaM/edit?usp=sharing). I'd like to hear:
- Ways role combos can be exploited
- Powers you consider too weak or strong for their level
- Spells and blood-magic which you think I should include
- Whether one school of magic is way better or worse than the others
- Whether any powers are unclear
- How balanced the 3rd parties seem
In this variant, there isn't exp, rather everyone just gains a level at the end of every day. Powers must be learned through a sort of skill-tree structure, with players learning weaker powers before learning stronger ones. There's a mechanic for acting more flexibly, at some personal risk.
Post by: TolyK on March 06, 2016, 05:55:54 pm
Necro: Everyone else has died at least once
Town (incl. Redirector): All Mafia + Necro roles are dead
Joker and Redirector can win together (solely) if they're the only ones alive. In a variant, they can only win while (self is) alive.
Zombie wincon: Necromancer wins.
For games with <=5 people, each player gets two roles and wins with either one of them (they act as if two players, and positioning of cards can only be changed by the joker, i.e."left" and "right" roles for each player).
If possible, 2 extra roles are added to the "potential roles" pool that will be missing (i.e. 7 players, use all roles except vanilla townie, two random roles are left out). This can end up with nearly unwinnable games (joker w/ no mafia, for example), but is generally fun. Fun > Fair. :D
I'll check out your magic thing tomorrow when I'm not so pissed off. :p
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 06, 2016, 07:03:00 pm
Post by: Jack A T on March 06, 2016, 08:00:21 pm
This is going to be pretty painful for the mafia early on, and I doubt there will be many scumkills for the first few nights.
The average townie, being unable to coordinate power selection, will probably pick from the two strongly town-oriented schools: Good and Truth. Evil L1 is a dud for town (Wound's scumteam only, pretty much, and Delay's quite a niche power), likely pushing townies away from it, and Lies is mostly disruption-focused. Could see a few townies going Lies and/or Evil, but not many. What that means is that there will be a ton of people with the low-level Good and Truth powers right from the start of the game, and they're good to great powers, especially en masse. Several protects (counter any evil spell? Nice, particularly with many protects floating around), tons of tracks, tons of watches (you're starting Truth with mid-high-power investigative powers), and, if newly acquired spells can be used when acquired, a cluster of Spell-Seeks searching for Evil and Lies spells.
It is almost suicidal for scum to try to kill in this scenario, at least for the first couple nights. As informed as they are, they are still stuck struggling in a giant net of strong counters against scumkilling right from the start, and killing via Wound is a great way to maximize the chance of failing or getting caught. Disruption through Delay and Lies helps against a few irritating townies, but just about every townie will be dangerous. A game full of trackers and watchers is not a great game for the scum.
Wound I see almost no use for outside of the scumteam, needing coordination to be effective, and with Spell-Seek being available almost immediately, why even take it as scum?
I'll be honest: I don't see much correlation between power strength and power level in the setup, except for in Evil. Truth, for instance, has an excellent L1 and excellent L4, with two useful but weaker levels in between.
Questions:
* How are mislynches counted for the illusionist's victory? Is a mislynch pushed only by the scumteam going to count towards town killing itself?
* Are newly acquired spells usable the night of acquisition?
* When do players know that they have been harmed?
Post by: notquitethere on March 07, 2016, 05:01:00 am
Does the Dreadlord have to be alive to win?No, none of the wincons need to be alive to win in this incarnation.
Jack
A lot of good stuff here.
This is going to be pretty painful for the mafia early on, and I doubt there will be many scumkills for the first few nights.Wound is a little bit stronger than it first appears: the scum team could (for instance) day-wound to kill, and then have their third heal them at night. Blood magic, combined with co-ordinating their own healing straight off the block will allow the scum team much greater flexibility than the town. But you are right, they could be beefed up a little.
The average townie, being unable to coordinate power selection, will probably pick from the two strongly town-oriented schools: Good and Truth. Evil L1 is a dud for town (Wound's scumteam only, pretty much, and Delay's quite a niche power), likely pushing townies away from it, and Lies is mostly disruption-focused. Could see a few townies going Lies and/or Evil, but not many. What that means is that there will be a ton of people with the low-level Good and Truth powers right from the start of the game, and they're good to great powers, especially en masse. Several protects (counter any evil spell? Nice, particularly with many protects floating around), tons of tracks, tons of watches (you're starting Truth with mid-high-power investigative powers), and, if newly acquired spells can be used when acquired, a cluster of Spell-Seeks searching for Evil and Lies spells.Yes, the early truth powers are a bit too good maybe. Spell-seek could definitely be swapped with Carbon Copy in the ordering.
Wound I see almost no use for outside of the scumteam, needing coordination to be effective, and with Spell-Seek being available almost immediately, why even take it as scum?I think the reason why I underestimated the strength of track/protect is that in previous CYOMs basically no one ever took them, but this would push too many people to take them.
I'll be honest: I don't see much correlation between power strength and power level in the setup, except for in Evil. Truth, for instance, has an excellent L1 and excellent L4, with two useful but weaker levels in between.
* How are mislynches counted for the illusionist's victory? Is a mislynch pushed only by the scumteam going to count towards town killing itself?Mislynch counts if a town player was on the lynch for a town player, or if a scum player was on the lynch for a scum player. This means the illusionist will be able to get some of their kills through early town-on-town lynches, but they'll still need to cause mischief for maximum damage.
* Are newly acquired spells usable the night of acquisition?Originally I was thinking you'd level at the end of each day, but given that the game starts in the day phase, maybe it should be at the end of each cycle (so players have to use their L1 spells at least once).
* When do players know that they have been harmed?Possibilities I was considering:
- They don't know at all unless they are circumspect, so you could have wounded players use blood magic and accidentally kill themselves. Stronger for the scum team (they could speculatively wound a lot of players and wait to see who uses blood magic).
- They're informed of their current health at the end of each phase (with effects much like above, but they'd soon figure out there was scum wounding them)
- Or, most kind to town, players always know their wound level and are blocked from using blood magic if they've been wounded that phase.
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 07, 2016, 11:02:59 am
Post by: TolyK on March 07, 2016, 11:13:36 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 07, 2016, 01:46:00 pm
Is it me, or is a Dreadlord that instantly Poisons (day- and then night-) folks pretty screwy? That would (potentially) require day-Curing, and many people would end up harmed on the first day, which could end up with plenty of kills in a succession and few ways to stop it.Remember the team kill limit still applies to the Dreadlord, so there'd be at most one extra death per phase, but yes, it could be more destructive than intended.
Post by: hector13 on March 07, 2016, 01:59:07 pm
You could keep taking level 1 spells for the entire game, then swap it for someone who might have specialized a bit more, and then use a level 1 spell to take everything from another player.
Post by: Jack A T on March 07, 2016, 05:17:02 pm
Possibilities I was considering:NQT: I'd go for the second option. Always knowing wound level would probably be a bit much info for town in an already info-filled game, and not knowing at all would be ridiculous. Just imagine these soon-to-be-great mages completely missing their serious wounds.
- They don't know at all unless they are circumspect, so you could have wounded players use blood magic and accidentally kill themselves. Stronger for the scum team (they could speculatively wound a lot of players and wait to see who uses blood magic).
- They're informed of their current health at the end of each phase (with effects much like above, but they'd soon figure out there was scum wounding them)
- Or, most kind to town, players always know their wound level and are blocked from using blood magic if they've been wounded that phase.
I think the reason why I underestimated the strength of track/protect is that in previous CYOMs basically no one ever took them, but this would push too many people to take them.Key thing to recognize about power balance here is that this is not like prior CYOMs. In prior games, buying powers meant less access to other powers. Here, it means more access. Very different power selection process means somewhat different selections.
Also, these are not the same powers as in previous CYOMs. The protect here gives protection from a quarter of the powers in the game, not just kills, and track and watch are not weakened by a masquerade system.
Post by: Teneb on March 16, 2016, 02:47:43 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 16, 2016, 06:29:54 pm
Post by: Shakerag on April 01, 2016, 10:40:58 am
Power Hungry Mafia - So basically what Leafsnail (I think) called Xylbot's chaos mode: Everyone gets totally randomly assigned powers. And a double-handful of them to boot.
This is basically going to be a "for funsies" type of game. Everyone going into it knows it'll be an unbalanced hot mess, and it's mostly going to revolve around playing with various abilities and seeing what kind of batshit setup gets generated. Days will be short (48 hours?) with one extension (+24 hrs?), nights are 24 hours, and weekends don't count. This might be a bit more "casual" game as I foresee the day game being light since the main focus is on having lots of abilities.
So just seeing if there would be enough interest to bother throwing something like this up on the queue or not.
Post by: notquitethere on April 01, 2016, 11:25:10 am
Gauging interest in a game here.This is Bay 12 to the max really, it'll go down a storm.
Power Hungry Mafia - So basically what Leafsnail (I think) called Xylbot's chaos mode: Everyone gets totally randomly assigned powers. And a double-handful of them to boot.
This is basically going to be a "for funsies" type of game. Everyone going into it knows it'll be an unbalanced hot mess, and it's mostly going to revolve around playing with various abilities and seeing what kind of batshit setup gets generated. Days will be short (48 hours?) with one extension (+24 hrs?), nights are 24 hours, and weekends don't count. This might be a bit more "casual" game as I foresee the day game being light since the main focus is on having lots of abilities.
So just seeing if there would be enough interest to bother throwing something like this up on the queue or not.
Post by: TolyK on April 01, 2016, 11:39:34 am
Post by: Persus13 on April 01, 2016, 02:42:01 pm
Post by: pisskop on April 01, 2016, 02:47:39 pm
A 8 person game whre the mafia want to get lynched and the town want to reach parity with the mafia. by getting lynched.
Its got no night to it.
Post by: Elephant Parade on April 01, 2016, 02:51:16 pm
-snip-Sounds pretty fun; I'd definitely join it.
Post by: flabort on April 01, 2016, 03:01:23 pm
Pisskop wants to run reverse mafia.My thought process when seeing this:
A 8 person game whre the mafia want to get lynched and the town want to reach parity with the mafia. by getting lynched.
Its got no night to it.
What's to stop everyone from self voting?
Oh, the mafia could even vote each other as teamwork.
Wait, when town sees that they'll know who the mafia are, and try to lynch one of their own
Wait, that would look a lot like mafia voting each-other too. Which could create a lot of WIFOM.
Ah, I see, that's really clever, and could actually work.
I'd play it!
Post by: JohnnyDavids13 on April 22, 2016, 05:19:11 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on April 22, 2016, 06:12:58 pm
Pisskop wants to run reverse mafia.My thought process when seeing this:
A 8 person game whre the mafia want to get lynched and the town want to reach parity with the mafia. by getting lynched.
Its got no night to it.
What's to stop everyone from self voting?
Oh, the mafia could even vote each other as teamwork.
Wait, when town sees that they'll know who the mafia are, and try to lynch one of their own
Wait, that would look a lot like mafia voting each-other too. Which could create a lot of WIFOM.
Ah, I see, that's really clever, and could actually work.
I'd play it!
So basically, vote for the towniest person until there are no towny people left and then panic when you can't trust anyone. Sounds interesting.
Post by: flabort on April 23, 2016, 02:44:23 am
Everyone is Jester, competing for the lynch.
So basically, vote for the towniest person until there are no towny people left and then panic when you can't trust anyone. Sounds interesting.
"In Soviet Russia, mislynch HELP town"
Post by: H4zardZ1 on April 23, 2016, 11:20:37 am
Post by: Deus Asmoth on April 24, 2016, 07:01:17 pm
Post by: H4zardZ1 on April 25, 2016, 03:12:21 am
So, players would be allowed to quote their role PM? Seems like unless the scumteam was able to craft proper fakes they'd instantly lose.
a poorly made fake will be spottedHaven't i said that already? However, the scumteam can also use catches(like waiting for a townie to post their flavor text, and then creating a fake from it)or excuses to not display their flavor text(like saying the scum will fake the flavor)quicklyand a well made fake will make someone 'good'
Is that a good idea?
Post by: origamiscienceguy on April 25, 2016, 08:35:45 am
no. It doesn't sound like a good idea. The first townies to claim would be practically confirmed, and only the last 4 or so people to claim would be targets. Unbalanced for scum.So, players would be allowed to quote their role PM? Seems like unless the scumteam was able to craft proper fakes they'd instantly lose.a poorly made fake will be spottedHaven't i said that already? However, the scumteam can also use catches(like waiting for a townie to post their flavor text, and then creating a fake from it)or excuses to not display their flavor text(like saying the scum will fake the flavor)quicklyand a well made fake will make someone 'good'
Is that a good idea?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on April 28, 2016, 03:06:32 pm
Post by: flabort on May 03, 2016, 07:49:42 pm
2 Town Vanilla
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Town Spy
1 Town Doctor
1 Town cop
Spy gets access to the mafiachat.
Mafia's goal is not to outnumber the town, but to find and kill the spy. If spy gets lynched, that still fulfills mafia's goal. Town's goal is to lynch both mafia.
Mafia share a kill, but one has to use the kill if they want to use it, and can't use the kill and their own ability at same time.
The mafia know eachother, and they know there's a spy; unlike if the spy were a traitor.
The spy may chat in the mafiachat if he wants.
Post by: fillipk on May 03, 2016, 07:55:54 pm
Post by: hector13 on May 03, 2016, 08:09:26 pm
Tell me what you'd think of this open setup:
2 Town Vanilla
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Town Spy
1 Town Doctor
1 Town cop
Spy gets access to the mafiachat.
Mafia's goal is not to outnumber the town, but to find and kill the spy. If spy gets lynched, that still fulfills mafia's goal. Town's goal is to lynch both mafia.
Mafia share a kill, but one has to use the kill if they want to use it, and can't use the kill and their own ability at same time.
The mafia know eachother, and they know there's a spy; unlike if the spy were a traitor.
The spy may chat in the mafiachat if he wants.
Risks a follow the cop strategy for town, I think, especially if the mafia roleblocker gets killed early. There's also nothing stopping (well... technically the roleblocker, but you know what I mean :P) the spy revealing early and then being incessantly protected by the doctor.
Post by: flabort on May 03, 2016, 08:21:19 pm
You're right, the cop seems OP. What if I replaced him with a Backup-Doctor (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Backup)?
Post by: hector13 on May 03, 2016, 08:42:16 pm
Assuming nobody gets blocked or protected, town only really have two chances to find scum before it all gets to be very finicky with tied votes and such, while scum essentially get four chances to find the spy before that happens, and are free to do as they please after that point, really. Maybe a cop that can't be protected instead? I don't think I'm liking the insta-win after the Spy is killed thing, but that's a preference thing.
people listening to me about mafia i don't even know wtf I'm talking about pfft
Post by: Mephansteras on May 03, 2016, 11:27:17 pm
It's interesting, since the Mafia want to use the chat to try and ferret out the Spy, but have to be careful doing so. And the spy, likewise, is powerful if they can figure out who the mafia are but risks everything if they die.
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 04, 2016, 07:00:46 am
Post by: flabort on May 04, 2016, 02:35:03 pm
Do the people have to use their real name in the chat?not at all.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on May 06, 2016, 09:45:24 am
Post by: TheBiggerFish on August 09, 2016, 11:20:48 pm
A game where people play two 'people', who are independent entities in the conversation, etc., perhaps with wildly differing wincons, perhaps not.
The mechanics would be odd, though. How to not identify the players behind each role and all. You'd probably need to do a lot of weird stuff with PMs...Or maybe a quicktopic or something.
Post by: hector13 on August 09, 2016, 11:31:03 pm
I imagine it would get very confusing very quickly that way though.
I'm not sure it would work with the traditional scum/town dichotomy though, as someone might be town and scum, which kinda defeats the purpose. Maybe rules regarding mutually exclusive alignments would fix that.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on August 10, 2016, 12:01:13 am
Post by: hector13 on August 10, 2016, 12:18:54 am
Maybe just have each player have two wincons, which hopefully aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe a lyncher or assassinator or jester type deal. A jester in this kind of game would be kind of interesting, seeing as how you now can't really go all out with trying to get lynched.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on August 10, 2016, 12:22:17 am
Because that worked out so well... Uhhh... Has anyone actually tried that?
Nonono. Again, the roles play separate. Lynches too.
Post by: hector13 on August 10, 2016, 12:23:08 am
Post by: origamiscienceguy on August 10, 2016, 04:06:10 pm
Maybe everyone is a third party.I did one where everybody was cult (except Hector. haha.)
Because that worked out so well... Uhhh... Has anyone actually tried that?
Nonono. Again, the roles play separate. Lynches too.
That was fun
Post by: hector13 on August 10, 2016, 04:11:13 pm
Post by: origamiscienceguy on August 10, 2016, 04:25:14 pm
It was, until I went a bit mental at the end. Town shoulda won though :PYou fully embraced your inner villain mastermind.
Post by: hector13 on August 10, 2016, 04:27:55 pm
Post by: Skynet on August 13, 2016, 10:49:09 am
Maybe everyone is a third party.
Because that worked out so well... Uhhh... Has anyone actually tried that?
- Third Party Mafia 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=48913.msg1008238#msg1008238)
- Third Party Mafia 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=65002.0)
- Third Party Mafia 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=85996.msg2324618#msg2324618)
Post by: TheWetSheep on October 10, 2016, 09:05:04 pm
2-villager mafia:
For 5+ players (probably not more than eight)
Roles:
- 2 Villagers
- Everyone else is a mafia
Rules:
- Nightless
- 1 vote to hammer
- Mafia cannot vote for villagers
Wincons:
- Villagers win when all mafia are dead
- Mafia win when one villager is killed
So, basically, anybody can kill someone whenever they want, but mafia can only kill other mafia. They have to convince one villager to kill the other. If the villagers are the last two left, they win.
The neat thing is that once the game starts, a moderator isn't needed. When someone is killed, all other players will know what the role is due to the nature of the rules, so they can just post the flip.
Let me know what you think and if you'd be interested. It wouldn't be a major game, just short little rounds probably.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 12, 2016, 08:35:01 am
Seems fairly nice. A mechanism for making sure the game doesn't go too quickly would be nice, though. Maybe make it so that a given player cannot lynch two days in a row.
Post by: TheWetSheep on October 12, 2016, 01:10:18 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 03, 2016, 12:22:42 pm
Anybody interested?
Post by: Tomasque on November 19, 2016, 03:19:58 pm
Ho, folks. It'll be a while before I run Odd Mafia(several months, probably), but I'd still like to get someone's help in designing and balancing it.I like designing mafia games, so I'm in on that. I just need to get things settled down first (I've just began my Thanksgiving vacation), but I'll be at full capacity by Monday.
Anybody interested?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 20, 2016, 06:59:28 pm
Post by: doll on February 01, 2017, 04:07:42 am
Spoiler: Broken Hearts (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tomasque on February 01, 2017, 11:28:44 am
Seriously, that's a nice setup! Are you posting it here for suggestions, or just so that we can marvel at its amazingness?
Post by: webadict on February 01, 2017, 12:23:10 pm
Post by: doll on February 01, 2017, 02:42:56 pm
That said it's fairly fresh and hasn't been formalized in a lot of ways (I've given literally no rules about voting, even though it's basically a pure bastard and therefore not assuming any rules from mafia).
I'm intending to run it as open rules closed setup, paranormal style, once I'm
Once I've had time to update the rules and triplecheck my 9 player plan I'll be looking for someone to discuss the particular setup I intend to run with and see if they can see a reason why it shouldn't go down okay.
Post by: Tomasque on February 01, 2017, 03:19:32 pm
Post by: doll on February 01, 2017, 03:33:29 pm
An idea I had: Perhaps in addition to what the normally have, a Popular player would automatically make whoever married them win? It would add an aspect of intrigue as people try to convince the Popular player to marry them, while simultaneously trying to throw other suitors under the bus.That was in my original idea for Popular players, actually; at that time, each role had a limited list of possible wincons rather than 'virtually anything' like they do now. When wincons got changed I didn't need that rule anymore.
If you wanted to recreate that mechanic, you can do it by just adding an OR marry a Popular player to everyone's wincons, and that doesn't eliminate the possibility of having players who do not want to marry the popular player.
Edit:
The other reason I removed it was because of one of the thins that it does do, which is tell everyone that they can marry that player to win. It makes popular a very clunky mechanic because the popular player can essentially choose whichever claim they think will make them win, and is generally encouraged to slow the game down and fish out roles with nosy/jealous inspects, etc. while having no pressure on themselves.
Post by: Tomasque on February 01, 2017, 04:10:40 pm
What if: no one knows that marrying the popular player makes them win, and it could only be discovered if someone did the investigation on them. The element of desperately trying to get them to marry/stay with them while killing potential suitors would still exist, but it wouldn't cause a game-wide clusterfuck, since only the few players who investigated the popular player would know (and they wouldn't be telling anybody).An idea I had: Perhaps in addition to what the normally have, a Popular player would automatically make whoever married them win? It would add an aspect of intrigue as people try to convince the Popular player to marry them, while simultaneously trying to throw other suitors under the bus.That was in my original idea for Popular players, actually; at that time, each role had a limited list of possible wincons rather than 'virtually anything' like they do now. When wincons got changed I didn't need that rule anymore.
If you wanted to recreate that mechanic, you can do it by just adding an OR marry a Popular player to everyone's wincons, and that doesn't eliminate the possibility of having players who do not want to marry the popular player.
Edit:
The other reason I removed it was because of one of the thins that it does do, which is tell everyone that they can marry that player to win. It makes popular a very clunky mechanic because the popular player can essentially choose whichever claim they think will make them win, and is generally encouraged to slow the game down and fish out roles with nosy/jealous inspects, etc. while having no pressure on themselves.
Post by: doll on February 01, 2017, 08:38:44 pm
I'm going to be making a thread for this (just planning etc.) in a bit because it's getting annoying to manage the text documents and I want to see that the formatting does actually work without needing to PM myself 40 times.
Post by: doll on February 07, 2017, 04:04:52 am
What format would people favor for the next BM?
The discussion prior was about replacing the mafia rolecop with a 50/50 tracker/watcher.
Watcher in particular I think would be a drastic improvement against the mafia rolecop (though I am against the mafia rolecop in it's general form), though I can see why you would want a watcher/tracker (broader exposure).
Post by: Imic on February 16, 2017, 02:52:19 pm
How roleplaying mafia would work:
One person is a baker. Basically an ordinary towny. He is grumpy, but kind on the inside, although he dislikes getting colds. The fact that there is a baker, as well as his known personality, is shown to all players, this is a small town, and everyone knows everyone.
BUT!
SUDDENLY!
A spie comes into town from the nearby kingdom of Antagonista, with the intention of infiltrating the town!
So, the spy pretends to be the baker, thus creating a brand - new kind of mafia environment!
Requesting constructive criticism, as well as ideas for roles.
Post by: doll on February 16, 2017, 03:05:45 pm
Do some players know about certain roles' traits more than other players, allowing them to angle towards sniffing out the spy by making them slip in flavor, while leaving this same avenue open to everyone else?
Is this going to be strong enough to overcome the usual method of 'disregard flavor and just hunt'?
I can't see any incentive to stay in character as it were from what you've just described. If it's based on good faith, then it really is just flavor.
Post by: Imic on February 16, 2017, 04:22:32 pm
Post by: Jack A T on February 16, 2017, 06:56:29 pm
They had no roleplaying expectation, but they did have a good bit of the interlocking player flavour you're describing. Bastard games, very much. Worked out well.
Post by: Imic on February 17, 2017, 02:53:37 am
Post by: Mephansteras on February 20, 2017, 03:37:27 pm
Post by: doll on April 02, 2017, 09:25:44 am
Have players go 'in' via PM rather than by posting in the thread.
To my eye, most of what occurs in the pre-game banter within the thread can be summed up as:
1) Players fishing setup information out of the moderator
2) Players discussing the game format (as opposed to the specific setup)
3) Pre-RVS meta-gaming whereby players discuss plans and methods they intend to employ in the game itself, and in doing so influence how those methods will be perceived within the game
4) Moderator enacted setup changes, often due to 2), 1) or additional players going in in unlimited population games
In a game like Paranormal (or Broken Hearts) which has an open list of possible setups with a separate thread to discuss game mechanics in, and often an indeterminate number of players, (2) can be done elsewhere (and feeds strongly into (1)) while (1) and (3) directly benefit the early players (and (4) feeds so heavily into (3) that it usually has a major effect on Day 1). (1) and (3) are both disruptive of normal game flow and generally undesirable; the changes of (4) usually severely disrupt the plans and mindset of early players and so can be largely considered the same.
Using PMs allows moderators to avoid giving players information on who they will be playing and gives moderators the opportunity to censor player's attempts to express how they will be playing, which I suspect is quite good for the health of the game. Giving signup statistics allows moderators to still express how close the game is to starting for those games which start upon getting enough players in.
PMs have the added benefit that they allow moderators to make active decisions about which players to include in a game where more wish to play than slots are available for. Moderators attempting to straddle the line between successfully running complex setups which inexperienced players may disrupt, and getting enough players to run a setup at all will benefit from a PM system as they can fill their games by preference order rather than by chronological order. Similarly, players who have less time than other players may be able to indicate so in the PM and be placed lower in the preference order in an elegant fashion without having to try to guess if the thread will fill without them going 'in' and basing their decision on that; the moderator need not trouble busy players by putting them in a game unless their brief and sporadic posting becomes the moderators preference due to the lack of a game without, while busy players can more easily ensure that games they are interested in do not fail to arise without clumsily attempting to register both an interest in playing and a partial disability in doing so.
Post by: TolyK on April 02, 2017, 12:23:24 pm
Post by: doll on April 03, 2017, 02:16:37 am
The one problem I see is that the process of who gets to play (and who doesn't) isn't transparent, and could theoretically be abused by mods (knowingly or subconsciously) to let people they know better (or like more) play.There are a lot of opportunities like that for both players and mods within the state of affairs of b12mafia, which is why mods use procedural role allocation, and mods are trusted to use procedural role allocation, while players are trusted not to cheat etc.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2017, 11:44:13 am
There is also the issue that a thread with more activity gets more attention.
So it depends a bit, I think, on what the mod's primary concern is. In-thread signups can be good for attendance, but possibly have some negative effects on the game itself. PM signups may be better for the game but could cause more games to be short players or end up cancelled due to lack of interest.
Post by: Persus13 on April 03, 2017, 12:33:32 pm
Post by: Libervurto on June 15, 2017, 09:48:33 am
This is my first post on the forum. I haven't played Mafia but I love game rules and as I went through the wiki a few ideas popped into my head. I will share them here if that's okay and if they are rubbish ideas that would break the game then you can tell me and I will have learned something extra about the game. :D
Taking influence from Secret Hitler, I think it would be interesting to try having both public and secret roles. I call the public roles "professions" because… well they're all professions! Another (now necessary) twist is that any player regardless of profession can be mafia/town/other aligned. Secret roles are held in addition to professions. Players may have multiple secret roles but only one profession. Ideally I'd like every player to have a unique profession, that way the utility of each player factors into the decision of who to lynch.
Only one night action per player per night is permitted, so many players will have to decide which of their actions to use.
Since we now know the professions of everyone there can be discussions about what each player should do next and players have the option to publicly announce their intentions (which could be lies).
I had to make some adjustments to the way the professions work to avoid giving away people's factions, for example, if the cop declares a player to be mafia and that player is later (after being lynched) found out to be a townie, the rest of the town would know the cop lied and is therefore mafia.
I will now go on to explain the details of each profession and secret role:
(PS I am trying to design all rules without using any random numbers)
PROFESSIONS
Cop
The cop chooses two players to investigate during the night. The GM does not reveal their factions directly to the cop, he simply tells the cop how many mafia and/or towny were amongst those investigated along with an additional mafia/towny result depending on the type of operation the cop chose to conduct.
The cop can choose to either conduct a surveillance operation or a sting operation. The purpose of this choice is to make it harder to produce definitive answers from investigations. The difference between the two types of operation is that surveillance will only give a definitive answer if both players under investigation are townies; while a sting operation will only give a definitive answer if both are mafia. Now the cop has some real detective work to do!
The following truth table shows how this works, with the first two characters being the factions (M=mafia or T=towny) of the two players under investigation (in no particular order) while the third character depends on the type of operation conducted (surveillance or sting, respectively) shown in square brackets:
TT[T|M]
MT[M|T]
MM[T|M]
For example, the cop might start off by surveilling players A and B. The result he gets back from the GM is, "2M T". After consulting the truth table, the cop realises that at least one of A and B must be mafia. He thinks both might be mafia, so decides to run a sting operation on them: the result comes back, "2M T", again. Damn! He has learned that one is a towny and the other is mafia, but he still doesn't know which is which. He moves on to surveil players C and D, this time the result is, "3T". Yes! They are both townies. Now if he surveils either C or D along with either A or B he can deduce which one of A or B is the mafioso! Unfortunately, our cop is killed the following night. :P
Doctor
The doctor chooses a player to protect but he also chooses a medical kit to equip. Each medical kit prevents different murder methods, the doctor must be lucky enough to choose the right kit or the patient will die.
We can decide how many murder methods we want in the game to alter the success rate of doctors. Each medical kit will cover a number of murder methods but never all of them, so there is always a chance of failure and patient death. Therefore, the maximum chance of success we can give a doctor is (n-1)/n, where n is the number of murder methods permitted.
So if we have 3 murder methods, we can give our doctor a choice of 3 medical kits that each treat 2 types of murder method, giving the doctor a 2/3 chance of successfully picking the right kit. If we have 4 murder methods, the doctor can have 4 kits treating 3 methods each, and his chance of success is 3/4. And so on.
Additionally, we could introduce lower-skilled medical roles with medical kits that treat fewer types of murder methods than the doctor.
The doctor's action is not a roleblock.
The doctor must have the right medical kit for all murder methods inflicted on his patient in order to prevent their death.
Bartender
Can intoxicate a player, roleblocking them.
If the same player is blocked by the bartender three times they die of alcohol poisoning.
Cook
Can cook a hearty meal for another player, allowing them to negate one roleblock placed on them during the night.
Alternatively, the cook can give food poisoning to another player, roleblocking them.
Priest
Can take confession from any player by asking the GM what action they took (if any); the GM reveals this to the priest the next morning. This is only a confession of the type of action taken, no other information such as the target or method is given.
If the priest is roleblocked, the targeted player will not give confession.
Reporter
Every morning, the GM will reveal to the reporter the targets and murder methods involved in any attempted and/or successful murders the previous night. (The reporter can of course give false reports about attempts and murder methods but cannot lie about who has been killed since the GM will still be announcing the deaths to the group.)
This is a passive trait and cannot be blocked.
SECRET ROLES
Mafia
The number of mafiosi is not revealed. As usual, the mafia know the identity of all mafia members and will choose a player to murder each night. The difference here is that the mafia must elect one of their number to do the hit and choose a murder method. Performing a hit is obviously a night action, so this means the hitman cannot perform any other actions during that night.
Godfather
Mafia. Appears to be a towny when investigated. Does not give confession.
Consigliere
Mafia. Can flip the apparent faction of any player for one night (except himself).
Hitman
Mafia. Can choose two murder methods when commiting a mafia hit.
Vigilante
Towny. Gets a single attack to use on any night during the game. Must choose a murder method.
Undercover Agent
Towny. The undercover agent is a towny posing as a mafia member, thus he appears to the mafia as one of their own and knows the identity of all mafiosi. Undercover agents appear as mafia in cop investigations (unless some other ability makes them appear differently).
The undercover agent cannot kill a towny via mafia hits but he may kill players of other factions this way. If an agent attempts a mafia hit against a towny that is successful, the kill is cancelled and instead the agent's cover is blown and he is out of the game.
Serial Killer
Independent (wins if last player alive). Gets a murder attempt each night, choosing a target and murder method. The serial killer appears to be a towny in investigations. Their true identity is not revealed until the end of the game, not even upon their death, but neither team can win while the serial killer is alive.
Killing Spree: If the serial killer successfully committed murder the previous night, he gains an additional murder method the following night. This resets on a night where he fails to murder anyone.
--------------------------------
There are a wide number of possible roles from different combinations of profession and secret roles. For example, a serial killer doctor who kills the patients he is supposed to be protecting; a corrupt cop who pretends that mafia members are townies; a serial killer reporter who misreports their own crimes; a vigilante priest who kills those who confess to murder; an undercover cook who continually gives mafia hitmen food poisoning to slow their progress; and many more!
Precedence of Actions
1. Defensive actions: blocks and medical protection.
2. Misc. actions: flipping a player's faction, giving immunity to block, etc.
3. Being Killed.
4. Killing another player.
I.E. if the consigliere is blocked he cannot flip the faction of another player.
An example of a more bizarre situation is one where player A blocks player B, who in turn is attempting to kill player C, who in turn is attempting to kill player A. Because of A's block on B, B does not kill C, and therefore C is free to kill A. A has caused his own death because if he did not block B, B's killing of C would have taken precedence and C would not have been able to kill A.
If two players try to kill each other both take equal precedence and they both die.
Post by: notquitethere on June 16, 2017, 05:03:01 pm
Post by: RoseHeart on August 08, 2017, 10:42:23 pm
Q1) Should I 'ask' to host. Some forums have this rule for mafia.
Q2) Any suggestion on fairly common roles for these characters?
Captain America:
Deadpool:
Wolverine:
Quicksilver:
Spider-Man:
Nick Fury:
Venom:
Domino:
I want all roles to be visible, maybe even player chosen. Some players will be skrulls. I see venom as a third party in the sense that he wins just by surviving. Not sure which power to give.
May make extra players shield agents.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 09, 2017, 08:47:13 am
Q2.
Captain America might make a good bodyguard.
Deadpool might get a self-revive due to regeneration, or perhaps kill immunity. Along with Astrologer powers(receive random info each night) due to fourth wall breaking.
Wolverine also has regeneration, and might make a good vigilante(kill during the night).
Quicksilver is less common. Taking multiple actions of some kind each night.
Nick Fury might start off known as town by everybody.
Venom would make a good third party, yes. But here's an intriguing idea: Venom is a symbiotic creature. The player with his role could choose to cause another player to become Venom, then die(though this wouldn't cause game loss). All players who have been Venom win at the end of the game if Venom is still alive.
Domino: No clue who this is.
Spider-Man: Very versatile. Maybe a JOAT(has multiple different abilities, each can only be used once).
Some players will be skrulls.Skrulls are a good choice for mafia. You may want to consider giving them a 1-shot convert ability or such.
I want all roles to be visible, maybe even player chosen.This is the tricky part.
Post by: RoseHeart on August 09, 2017, 12:55:11 pm
So its important that any combo of mafia would be fair.
Domino is a character important in the deadpool mythos and subtly one of the most powerful Marvel characters. She is... well she's lucky.
Post by: Mephansteras on August 09, 2017, 01:54:25 pm
It goes like this: Town calls for a claim of who did what each night. Everyone claims. Whoever is obviously lying is scum and therefore lynched. Repeat until town wins.
Unless you've got some very good scum and/or some carefully crafted roles that allow for some good fake-claims, scum has very little chance of winning. Add into this roles that effect night-kills or give information to town (like the Nick Fury idea) and it can get even worse.
Also note that Venom is a particularly tricky role if known, especially from the outset, as it is an easy lynch/kill target.
Overall...while I know why you want to do this from a flavor perspective, it's really tricky to balance.
I'd suggest, instead, that you have normal hidden power roles and have the visible roles be minor powers. Say...Captain America gets a one-shot bodyguard ability. Stuff like that. Keeps the flavor up a bit since you have the 'no one knows who's a Skrull' without making the game a simple puzzle to solve for town while scum tries desperately to mislead people into losing.
Post by: RoseHeart on August 09, 2017, 02:51:35 pm
B) If, say it was to be visible as proposed, what roles might make it less a solvable puzzle?
C) It could be every role has 2 abilities, with most overlapping with one or more others. Such as bodyguard, and vigilante.
maybe going back to the skrulls ability to copy powers is where the "faking" can stem from. Similar to super skrull ect.
Post by: Mephansteras on August 09, 2017, 03:37:54 pm
You could, possibly, set things up so that the powers have reasons to do things other than the most obvious action, but that would take a lot of thought. It might even be a static set-up, essentially, where a very specific set of roles for Town and Scum are actually balanced. And even then you have to worry about what happens as roles get removed. If the only thing stopping the scum from killing the Cop is a Bodyguard, and the bodyguard dies, then either the Cop is 100% dead or probably lynched the next day for not getting killed by the Scum.
Part of the major challenge of a Mafia game is that the Scum have more information than the town. With power roles, the fact that the scum all know who each other is and what powers they have as a team is part of their advantage. If everyone knows all of the powers in the game and who has them, the town has a lot more information to work with.
Town is supposed to be working at a disadvantage and trying to get clues fast enough to eliminate the scum before too many town die. The numbers are what gives them that chance in most games. If the only question left to ask is 'who is scum' while still giving town every possible tool to get more hints it's going to be hard to balance.
You could make scum super overpowered, like abilities that let them bypass blocks or get extra kills or whatnot, but that becomes really hard to balance. It also takes some of the fun out of the game, since the only thing worse than having no power is having a power that is actually completely useless.
Post by: RoseHeart on August 09, 2017, 05:34:54 pm
Post by: TolyK on August 10, 2017, 06:54:28 am
I don't have time to parse, but if there was a visible setup that worked it'll likely be there.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 05, 2017, 06:43:50 pm
The basic rules are as follows: to win the game, you must kill another player and get away with it. After a murder occurs (during the night phase) there's a trial (day phase) where all players must vote on who they think the culprit is. If they get it right, the culprit dies and the game continues. If they get it wrong, everyone except the culprit dies and the culprit is the sole winner. The game also ends if there are two or fewer players left alive - in that case those survivors win.
The idea is that everyone has that same win condition, and it's up to you when and if you become scum to try and win the game. I think the best way to implement this is with a bidding system. Every player would have the following ability, regardless of role:
Quote
- Murder: Send me a victim and a list of other suspects. If your murder attempt is successful the victim will die, and a trial will begin. At the start of the trial I will post that list of suspects with your name mixed into it. You cannot perform any other action on a night you use this.Only one player can succeed in killing each night. If multiple players submit a Murder action the player with the shortest list of suspects will be successful, and all other attempts will fail. So essentially a shorter list will make you more likely to succeed in your attempt, but also makes it harder to survive the trial afterwards because there will be fewer other possibilities.
Players would also have an "Ultimate talent" that would grant them some extra abilities. These could help you investigative murders or kill other players. In the case of an ability other than "Murder" being used to kill someone the thread will be told what the ability was and how it works. Players would also be given a "strength" rating between 1 and 20 that would be used to break ties in bidding and for other checks.
Post by: doll on October 09, 2017, 05:13:47 am
The idea is that everyone has that same win condition, and it's up to you when and if you become scum to try and win the game.How are you supposed to hunt between a group of players (suspects) when each of them was literally trying to do the same thing and has no actual preference in who they would kill (i.e. each of them would be just as happy with the situation, given their wincon, if they happened to be the one who made the kill - to the point where we can imagine that each player could have chose the same list and the mod picked the winning submission)? It strikes me that the core game loop is concerned about figuring out who is lying about their power role (probably everyone) and how (probably a lot), and then divining the killer from there; if this is the case, then hunting is based purely on parsing mechanical information and a light bit of cold reading on claims.
For that scenario to work, we would need to be able to presume that the roles in play are relevant in every (or almost every) case of murder plausible yet do not leave the case solved beyond reasonable doubt.
Compounding this concern, expendable role powers quickly become a game of chicken since every other player is by definition your enemy (excepting two-man draws) and so any usage of your resources is likely to be against your ultimate interests.
Post by: notquitethere on October 09, 2017, 11:43:17 am
For that we need actual motives, reasons why someone would kill one person over another. That can come from role interactions and would probably require role powers were known.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 09, 2017, 11:58:20 am
Post by: doll on October 10, 2017, 06:05:25 am
By having some of them require co-operation with other players you could have discussion and information exchange going on.Which would be entirely unrelated to hunting scum , since there's no way to distinguish between other players vis a vis their guilt beyond mechanical advantage since there's not information asymmetry with regards to the murder and this does nothing to change that.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 10, 2017, 07:58:38 pm
I do get what you're saying about it being arbitrary who dies and who gets put on suspect lists though, there should certainly be some kind of system that makes certain victims more desirable for certain players to introduce more of a WIFOM game there.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 10, 2017, 08:51:17 pm
There's the same information asymmetry that is present in every mafia game - the culprit knows they can win by lynching any other suspect while the town does not know which suspect they need to lynch in order to avoid losing.
I do get what you're saying about it being arbitrary who dies and who gets put on suspect lists though, there should certainly be some kind of system that makes certain victims more desirable for certain players to introduce more of a WIFOM game there.
There is also the issue that, while it is true that you have sort of a one-man scum team each day, it's not the same scum team from day to day. Which makes it useless to go back through and look at how someone played on previous days.
Which is not to say that it won't work, just that it does have some significant differences to a normal game.
Post by: MoonyTheHuman on January 05, 2018, 01:54:27 am
Unanimous requirements would force people to come up with fair (or seemingly fair, but hilariously broken) rules that everyone will be ok with adding in. To make this sane(r) i'd allow for neutral votes.
3/4 would work similarly, but has the disadvantage that vilteam could potentially win very rapidly by adding a "vilteam wins" rule.
It would probably otherwise follow standard mafia rules for roles (wolves kill, seer sees, villagers idle out) but with nonexistent game rules (until they're added)
The rulelawyering would be strong with this one.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 05, 2018, 10:29:45 am
I'd play.
Post by: MoonyTheHuman on January 05, 2018, 12:08:41 pm
Now on whether to make it so basic rules (like the ability to lynch) are already in play, or if it's truly Build Your Own Rules Mafia (Little name i came up for the concept). If there are no starting rules, i lied, there will be a few rules already in play. (But a rule like, say, 'ignore rule 1' would work to override them)
1. Players can add their own rules, via an unanimous voting system where each player votes on the rule they want to add.
2. Players can choose to neutrally vote when choosing a new rule, in that they no longer have any say in the vote after choosing this, and that their votes are no longer needed for the vote to be "unanimous"
And one meta rule, to make sure it works right:
1. Rules are prioritized from greatest to least, with the first rule having the lowest priority.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 05, 2018, 12:12:57 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 05, 2018, 07:50:54 pm
You should probably have some checks in play to prevent things like 'Town votes for a new rule that says 'Town automatically wins''. Scum can't vote against it, or they get lynched, and they can't vote for it or they lose.I mean, I'd vote against that as town, because what fun would that be?
Post by: MoonyTheHuman on January 05, 2018, 07:54:07 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on January 05, 2018, 08:48:09 pm
You should probably have some checks in play to prevent things like 'Town votes for a new rule that says 'Town automatically wins''. Scum can't vote against it, or they get lynched, and they can't vote for it or they lose.I mean, I'd vote against that as town, because what fun would that be?
To be fair, in a bastard game you'd have to worry that the mod has a secret rule in place that makes town lose if they put that rule in.
Post by: MoonyTheHuman on January 05, 2018, 09:13:30 pm
Indeed. Would anyone be intrested in playing such a game? I'll host.You should probably have some checks in play to prevent things like 'Town votes for a new rule that says 'Town automatically wins''. Scum can't vote against it, or they get lynched, and they can't vote for it or they lose.I mean, I'd vote against that as town, because what fun would that be?
To be fair, in a bastard game you'd have to worry that the mod has a secret rule in place that makes town lose if they put that rule in.
Post by: RoseHeart on March 19, 2018, 11:23:36 am
Who Goes There? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169924.0)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 02, 2018, 01:56:24 pm
I've been throwing around the concept of a bastardized mafia game where the only way to win is for the players to add rules and win conditions themselves. I'm thinking that the vote to add a rule should be 3/4 or unanimous. Looking for some feedback.I like the concept. Maybe if players voted anonymously, the mafia could cancel out any rule that would make town win immediately...
Unanimous requirements would force people to come up with fair (or seemingly fair, but hilariously broken) rules that everyone will be ok with adding in. To make this sane(r) i'd allow for neutral votes.
3/4 would work similarly, but has the disadvantage that vilteam could potentially win very rapidly by adding a "vilteam wins" rule.
It would probably otherwise follow standard mafia rules for roles (wolves kill, seer sees, villagers idle out) but with nonexistent game rules (until they're added)
The rulelawyering would be strong with this one.
~~~
I'm thinking about FBYOR 4. In each FBYOR, I select a Theme which changes how the game goes. For example, in FBYOR 3 I selected TvTropes as the theme, allowing players to submit tropes that can be later activated in game.
I'm thinking up some themes for FBYOR 4. And tell you what, I'm putting it to a vote!
Nightless: Mafia with no nights and no mafiakill. Day focused. To compensate for the lack of a mafiakill, the mafia would gain additional players in proportion to the total number of players. If there were a total of 9 players, for example, there would be 3 mafia instead of 2. Three mislynches or three successful lynches win town or scum the game.
RPG: Players have hit points(among other stats), and losing all of them kills you. Furthermore, by accomplishing objectives and surviving, players can gain EXP to level up, unlocking new abilities, improved stats and improvements to old abilities.
Shakeragian: Each player must submit a Shakeragian role instead of a normal one. For example, "The FBYOR 4 Role That Corrupts Votecounts" or etc.
Mass-Submit: Each player submits three roles, one town, one mafia, and one third party. I then choose from the roles and hand them out as appropriate. Players may not necessarily get a role that they submitted. Roles not used may be used in a future FBYOR.
Post by: TricMagic on September 09, 2018, 05:20:07 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 09, 2018, 05:24:42 pm
Seeing as it's your first time modding a game here(unless you have experience from a different forum), you might also wish to grab someone to look over your setup.
Post by: Shakerag on September 10, 2018, 08:28:33 am
To note, can I set up a game?
Unless I'm just totally misremembering, generally speaking if someone just shows up and tries to run a game it almost never gets up off the ground.
Post by: webadict on September 10, 2018, 08:37:52 am
That's about right. I'll run a balance check on it, if'n ya want, Tric.To note, can I set up a game?
Unless I'm just totally misremembering, generally speaking if someone just shows up and tries to run a game it almost never gets up off the ground.
Post by: TricMagic on September 10, 2018, 08:42:56 am
Post by: webadict on September 10, 2018, 08:58:27 am
K. I send it in a few days. The current Spider game should be over then.Uh... Okay. Have fun with the spiders.
Post by: TricMagic on September 13, 2018, 07:25:00 pm
Post by: webadict on September 13, 2018, 07:39:09 pm
Should I start setup?I technically wrote a bunch for your game, but I haven't gotten around to sending because school stuff. Maybe tomorrow.
Post by: TricMagic on September 13, 2018, 07:40:43 pm
Post by: Shakerag on September 21, 2018, 08:30:31 am
Looks like I wasn't misremembering.To note, can I set up a game?
Unless I'm just totally misremembering, generally speaking if someone just shows up and tries to run a game it almost never gets up off the ground.
Post by: TricMagic on September 21, 2018, 08:57:00 am
Post by: Mephansteras on September 21, 2018, 09:11:43 am
Post by: webadict on September 21, 2018, 09:21:44 am
No sign-ups at all.Well, I never got a PM back about whether you liked my suggestions or whatevs, but... why should someone join? Don't take that wrong or anything, but, really, what's the appeal?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on September 22, 2018, 03:56:16 pm
No sign-ups at all.You locked the thread, so we can't.
Post by: Caz on September 22, 2018, 07:19:10 pm
Post by: TricMagic on September 23, 2018, 08:12:54 am
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 25, 2018, 02:05:19 am
I am not all that good with summaries. Especially if I don't receive 10 player like I would want."If you build it, they will come." A good summary brings players, not the other way.
I actually missed the thread, it being locked before I even noticed it.
Post by: webadict on September 25, 2018, 08:50:41 am
True. I think you have a good theme to build off of, but there needs to be something for a user to latch onto.I am not all that good with summaries. Especially if I don't receive 10 player like I would want."If you build it, they will come." A good summary brings players, not the other way.
I actually missed the thread, it being locked before I even noticed it.
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2018, 04:37:04 pm
Stacking the Deck (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.0)
Post by: IcyTea31 on November 16, 2018, 07:36:42 am
What would you folks say about a return to the game's roots?
Post by: Caz on November 16, 2018, 12:10:01 pm
I'm feeling for a traditional game, one with simple, non-BYOR roles, no special gimmicks, no bastardry. I could host it, too, though I understand someone would probably like to advise a newbie.
What would you folks say about a return to the game's roots?
Sounds good.
Post by: Tomasque on January 13, 2019, 06:25:03 pm
The round can be run with 6 players, but can support up to (and seems best with) 10. It's a semi-open setup, with many of the roleslots being one of three possible roles. Here is the breakdown of that:
6 Players
Mafiaso
Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
Doctor / Bodyguard / Vigilante
Vigilante / Veteran / Escort
Escort / Transporter / Spy
Spy / Mayor / Doctor
7: Consort / Consigliere / Blackmailer
8: Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
9: Random Town (from the 11 above)
10: Serial Killer / Arsonist
Days will last 48 hours, and nights will last until all actions are submitted (maximum of 24 hours). 6 players games (and maybe others?) will require a lynch everyday, to prevent the town from stalling things out while they gather info. Lynches will work as we're used to them, but - in the case of a forced lynch - ties will extend the day by 24 hours, and then will be broken at random if there's still a tie. Unlike Town of Salem, there are no whispers, and mafiachat works even during the day.
Now, I need to address the problem of balance. At face value, the town has a massive advantage because each of their players is a power role. However, I don't want to include vanilla roles in the game, because the guarantee of being a power role is the core appeal of Town of Salem. Therefore, I've done my best to balance out this advantage through other aspects of the game's design. First, the "1 of 3" roles make any claim by scum sound reasonable. Few of them can be directly counterclaimed, and even a massclaim can't pinpoint the liar. Secondly, the exact roles in the game have been chosen to give every type of scum at least one indesputable claim for an investigator. Lastly, some of the town roles in the game (Escort, Transporter, Vigilante and Veteran) can hurt or hinder the town, so their "anti-synergy" helps bring down the inherent advantage of being a power role.
What do you think? Is this a good setup, or are there some considerations I missed? Would anybody here - especially potential players who are considering joining the subforum - be interested in playing?
Post by: hector13 on January 13, 2019, 09:40:37 pm
Also I don't like the mayor if you expect it to work the same as in ToS. Again, recollection tells me they are a confirmed townie and get 3 votes. Far too OP, especially if there are doctors in the game (more on this later)
I can't remember what an escort or transporter do, and I think the veteran is basically a paranoid gun owner? Again, perhaps too much for a 1 scum game, given they'll be dead if they choose wrong. Bad stuff.
How would role assignment work? A number of the town slots have repeated roles in them. If townie 2 is a vigilante, for example, would townie 3 also be able to be a vigilante?
I'd replace the doctor with the bodyguard too. It at least allows the scum to get a kill, but it means the town lose a protection role so they can't just do a follow-the-cop-like breaking strategy.
I do like there are fewer players than normal though, as our current lack of playerbase makes it hard to attract people.
How many ICs would you expect, and what about scum ICs, given there's only 1 scum slot if there are fewer than 7 players?
Post by: webadict on January 13, 2019, 09:44:52 pm
With suggestions from webadict, IcyTea and FallacyofUrist, I've been working on an idea to help bring new players into mafia, and I want to pitch it here to see what you think about it. Like Beginner's Mafia, it's meant to introduce newbies to the conventions of forum-based mafia. However, while BM eases them in with a minimalist design, my idea is to appeal to them with a thematic and mechanical link to Town of Salem. Potential players have probably played that game before, and so will be more likely to sign up and enjoy playing because they are familiar with the game and it's rules.It's still broken by a massclaim, though less so than others. You could essentially rule out certain players based on a massclaim. A massclaim would win fairly often.
The round can be run with 6 players, but can support up to (and seems best with) 10. It's a semi-open setup, with many of the roleslots being one of three possible roles. Here is the breakdown of that:
6 Players
Mafiaso
Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
Doctor / Bodyguard / Vigilante
Vigilante / Veteran / Escort
Escort / Transporter / Spy
Spy / Mayor / Doctor
7: Consort / Consigliere / Blackmailer
8: Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
9: Random Town (from the 11 above)
10: Serial Killer / Arsonist
Days will last 48 hours, and nights will last until all actions are submitted (maximum of 24 hours). 6 players games (and maybe others?) will require a lynch everyday, to prevent the town from stalling things out while they gather info. Lynches will work as we're used to them, but - in the case of a forced lynch - ties will extend the day by 24 hours, and then will be broken at random if there's still a tie. Unlike Town of Salem, there are no whispers, and mafiachat works even during the day.
Now, I need to address the problem of balance. At face value, the town has a massive advantage because each of their players is a power role. However, I don't want to include vanilla roles in the game, because the guarantee of being a power role is the core appeal of Town of Salem. Therefore, I've done my best to balance out this advantage through other aspects of the game's design. First, the "1 of 3" roles make any claim by scum sound reasonable. Few of them can be directly counterclaimed, and even a massclaim can't pinpoint the liar. Secondly, the exact roles in the game have been chosen to give every type of scum at least one indesputable claim for an investigator. Lastly, some of the town roles in the game (Escort, Transporter, Vigilante and Veteran) can hurt or hinder the town, so their "anti-synergy" helps bring down the inherent advantage of being a power role.
What do you think? Is this a good setup, or are there some considerations I missed? Would anybody here - especially potential players who are considering joining the subforum - be interested in playing?
I think thinking too hard about it is pretty detrimental though. It's just keeping us from playing a game. Frankly, I'm actually thinking running some low power role games alongside high power role games would be a decent way to bring in players. Right now, one game every 2 months is a terrible way to have people join. A new player shows up and shows interest in a game, but we hold the next game a month later, at which point that interest has waned.
We need to be holding constant games. And games while other games are running. It seems counter-intuitive even, but if we have the ability for players to play, then we will get new players.
We're twiddling our thumbs though. We pander to the audience we know already exists. BYORs will get our attention because we've gotten bored of what there is. Do we even want Mafia anymore? Was there not fun in the way we moderated games without power roles?
We need to invest time and effort into creating a (let me gag while saying this) product that people want. I want fun. Fun games aren't necessarily filled with power roles. They're not necessarily filled with lore or shenanigans. It's not the puzzles or the flavor that makes the game. It's the moderator and the players. Each game is unique because the moderator or the players make it unique.
Although, I'm a bit to blame, as I haven't hosted a game in some time. I would certainly like to, but I don't have the time to do so anymore. So, I'm kinda hypocritical on this point.
Post by: Tomasque on January 14, 2019, 12:41:45 am
How would you expect the spy to work on the forum? As I recall, in ToS the spy was able to "hear" what the mafia were saying during the night.Actually, Town of Salem changed the Spy's abilities completely. Now, they can visit a person to see what effect other people's abilities have had on them that night. So, basically an inverse Lookout. They also get to see who is visited by the mafia each night, but not which role did the visiting.
Also I don't like the mayor if you expect it to work the same as in ToS. Again, recollection tells me they are a confirmed townie and get 3 votes. Far too OP, especially if there are doctors in the game (more on this later)The Mayor can't be healed by a Doctor once they've revealed. However, you're right about them being a bit OP. More on this later, when I suggest a slightly different setup.
I can't remember what an escort or transporter do, and I think the veteran is basically a paranoid gun owner? Again, perhaps too much for a 1 scum game, given they'll be dead if they choose wrong. Bad stuff.Escort roleblocks. Transporter makes whoever would have visited the first target visit the second target instead, and vica versa. The Veteran is the paranoid gun owner, except that they can choose whether or not activate their ability (it's a 3-shot). Yeah, they're also pretty OP. On second thought, they'd definitely unbalance a small game. If I remove them and the Mayor, I can change the setup a bit, and make something we might both be happier with. How about this?
6 Players
Mafiaso
Consort / Framer / Blackmailer
Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
Doctor / Bodyguard / Spy
Spy / Vigilante / Escort
Escort / Transporter / Doctor
7: Bodyguard / Vigilante / Transporter
8: Executioner
9: Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
10: Serial Killer / Arsonist
In this case, I don't think I'd force a lynch every day, since this setup benefits mafia enough. In fact, that "Bodyguard / Vigilante / Transporter" increases the nebulousness of the distribution immensely. Maybe this version gives Mafia too much of an advantage?
How would role assignment work? A number of the town slots have repeated roles in them. If townie 2 is a vigilante, for example, would townie 3 also be able to be a vigilante?Before I assign roles to people, I randomly determine what the individual roles will be. These are determined independently from each other, and it is possible that two of the same role end up in the game. After that, I randomly assign the roles to the players.
I'd replace the doctor with the bodyguard too. It at least allows the scum to get a kill, but it means the town lose a protection role so they can't just do a follow-the-cop-like breaking strategy.Even if it would be possible to gracefully extract the the Doctor from the setup pattern (which it wouldn't be after I removed the Mayor and Veteran), I wouldn't do it because the role serves a great purpose for the scum: The doctor is a protection role that cannot harm the scum (unlike the Bodyguard or Transporter) and it's the perfect fakeclaim spot for a Serial Killer suspecting an Investigator in the setup. "Follow the Cop" can easily be defeated by the Mafia's Consort or Blackmailer, so the Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout would never reveal themselves for that in the first place.
How many ICs would you expect, and what about scum ICs, given there's only 1 scum slot if there are fewer than 7 players?With 2 Mafia in the revised setup, there'd be one Scum IC. As for the number of normal ICs, there'd be one at 6-8 players and two at 9-10.
@webadict: I want to get this thing running as soon as I can. I just need a little feedback from the players first. If I don't get anymore feedback that makes me change the setup, I'll get this running by the day after tomorrow.
Post by: hector13 on January 14, 2019, 08:41:27 am
Would you remove the executioner once they’ve killed their target? Would they become a jester if their target is killed outside of a lynch?
Also not a fan of the blackmailer role if you intend for it to silence players. Consigliere might be better, at least allowing the scum to know who’s what without ruining the fun for someone else.
Post by: Tomasque on January 14, 2019, 11:22:35 am
Yeah that seems a little unbalanced for town now. They could lose the game on N1 if they lynch wrong and scum kills, especially if there’s a vig who shoots and misses scum too. Maybe an anti-town third-party instead? This would allow an anti-town influence while keeping the game going for a few nights, and allow the game to keep going if mafia get killed.I've thought of that, but it won't work. Here's a list of all anti-town neutrals in Town of Salem: Vampire, Executioner, Jester, Witch, Arsonist, Serial Killer and Werewolf. I can't use Vampire, because they're essentially a cultist. Arsonist, Serial Killer and Werewolf are all killing roles, so they're out. Executioner and Jester are minor anti-town, so they won't keep the game going when mafia dies. This leaves me with the Witch. Huh. Although I like the Witch, including the role doesn't prevent your theoretical situation at all. In fact, it would increase the chance of a Vigilante shooting a Townie. Therefore, that means that the only neutral I could include instead of a mafia support would be an Executioner or a Jester, but that would mean one hit against the Mafia would kill them. There's not a lot I can do to balance the 6 player game - town will simply have to play safe, and not lynch day one if they're unsure. However, I feel like including the Witch in the game somewhere now, so I'll put the role alongside the Serial Killer and Arsonist.
Would you remove the executioner once they’ve killed their target? Would they become a jester if their target is killed outside of a lynch?I'll remove the Executioner once they win. If their target dies before they can get them lynched, I'll turn them into a Jester. Wondering whether or not the Executioner has become a Jester is an interesting conundrum I want the town (& scum) to think about.
Also not a fan of the blackmailer role if you intend for it to silence players. Consigliere might be better, at least allowing the scum to know who’s what without ruining the fun for someone else.You're right. BM is a bit BS. I'll use the Consigliere instead. Here's the new setup.
6 Players
Mafiaso
Consort / Framer / Consigliere
Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
Doctor / Bodyguard / Spy
Spy / Vigilante / Escort
Escort / Transporter / Doctor
7: Bodyguard / Vigilante / Transporter
8: Executioner
9: Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
10: Serial Killer / Arsonist / Witch
Post by: TricMagic on January 14, 2019, 11:29:25 am
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.0)
Post by: hector13 on January 14, 2019, 12:19:05 pm
Yeah that seems a little unbalanced for town now. They could lose the game on N1 if they lynch wrong and scum kills, especially if there’s a vig who shoots and misses scum too. Maybe an anti-town third-party instead? This would allow an anti-town influence while keeping the game going for a few nights, and allow the game to keep going if mafia get killed.I've thought of that, but it won't work. Here's a list of all anti-town neutrals in Town of Salem: Vampire, Executioner, Jester, Witch, Arsonist, Serial Killer and Werewolf. I can't use Vampire, because they're essentially a cultist. Arsonist, Serial Killer and Werewolf are all killing roles, so they're out. Executioner and Jester are minor anti-town, so they won't keep the game going when mafia dies. This leaves me with the Witch. Huh. Although I like the Witch, including the role doesn't prevent your theoretical situation at all. In fact, it would increase the chance of a Vigilante shooting a Townie. Therefore, that means that the only neutral I could include instead of a mafia support would be an Executioner or a Jester, but that would mean one hit against the Mafia would kill them. There's not a lot I can do to balance the 6 player game - town will simply have to play safe, and not lynch day one if they're unsure. However, I feel like including the Witch in the game somewhere now, so I'll put the role alongside the Serial Killer and Arsonist.Would you remove the executioner once they’ve killed their target? Would they become a jester if their target is killed outside of a lynch?I'll remove the Executioner once they win. If their target dies before they can get them lynched, I'll turn them into a Jester. Wondering whether or not the Executioner has become a Jester is an interesting conundrum I want the town (& scum) to think about.Also not a fan of the blackmailer role if you intend for it to silence players. Consigliere might be better, at least allowing the scum to know who’s what without ruining the fun for someone else.You're right. BM is a bit BS. I'll use the Consigliere instead. Here's the new setup.
6 Players
Mafiaso
Consort / Framer / Consigliere
Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
Doctor / Bodyguard / Spy
Spy / Vigilante / Escort
Escort / Transporter / Doctor
7: Bodyguard / Vigilante / Transporter
8: Executioner
9: Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
10: Serial Killer / Arsonist / Witch
The second scum isn't the answer. I think one of the things about the scum side of things is playing as a team, which unbalances things a lot if there are fewer than 7 players.
I was thinking that instead of having scum for a <7 player game, you have a serial killer instead. It essentially acts the same as the mafia in that they're trying to blend in, and it allows them a doctor claim if they get investigated, while the lookout or sheriff can counter that claim.
This would necessitate taking out (or severely limiting) any town-aligned killing roles, because that could win the game for them if they choose right.
In a 7+ player game, the way you have it is good, I think, though my preference would still be for an old school bodyguard - they die in place of their protected target - rather than doctors, since I think doctors are a bit OP.
Another way of getting round having only one scum is allowing them to kill and to have another action. Maybe a 1-shot of each of the three powers they would have if another scum player was in the game, or a permanent inspect.
Post by: Tomasque on January 14, 2019, 12:53:37 pm
I still need a couple more players too.Don't worry, I'm not trying to stop yours from running. If you run first, I won't mind; if I run first, you'll surely have enough players after that.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.0)
The second scum isn't the answer. I think one of the things about the scum side of things is playing as a team, which unbalances things a lot if there are fewer than 7 players.Alright. It looks like we're in disagreement on what to do in a 6 player game. I think that if I run this, I'lll either get at least 7 players or not enough to run it at all, so let's not worry about it for now. After a round of this, we'll both know more about how this is balanced, anyway.
I was thinking that instead of having scum for a <7 player game, you have a serial killer instead. It essentially acts the same as the mafia in that they're trying to blend in, and it allows them a doctor claim if they get investigated, while the lookout or sheriff can counter that claim.
This would necessitate taking out (or severely limiting) any town-aligned killing roles, because that could win the game for them if they choose right.
In a 7+ player game, the way you have it is good, I think, though my preference would still be for an old school bodyguard - they die in place of their protected target - rather than doctors, since I think doctors are a bit OP.
Another way of getting round having only one scum is allowing them to kill and to have another action. Maybe a 1-shot of each of the three powers they would have if another scum player was in the game, or a permanent inspect.
Post by: hector13 on January 14, 2019, 01:51:18 pm
Post by: Tomasque on January 16, 2019, 02:05:02 pm
Post by: Tomasque on January 24, 2019, 09:02:19 pm
Post by: dolores on March 28, 2019, 10:39:53 am
The premise is essentially just a secondary 'lynch'/daykill which doesn't penalize the town for hitting town or benefit the town for hitting scum; in essence, a way for the town to remove inactive players without disrupting scumhunting.
My working thoughts so far are:
The 'recycle' works on a hammer system and kills the player. If they were town, the next nightkill is prevented. If they were scum, two more (unblockable?) nightkills will happen in the next night phase.
Only available D1?
Obviously, there are problems with what happens when the player happens to be scum, since it brings the end of the game much closer. It's also a little heavy-handed, but that's probably unavoidable.
Post by: Persus13 on March 28, 2019, 05:22:33 pm
Post by: dolores on March 28, 2019, 05:38:30 pm
Games with a night-power emphasis are fucked if players don't turn up anyway, just look at BYOR0
(I also don't think high power games are good anyway but that's neither here nor there)
Post by: KitRougard on March 28, 2019, 05:41:28 pm
Post by: dolores on March 28, 2019, 05:49:54 pm
1 kill is the same as a regular lynch. There's no drawback to going for the recycle if the person is scum and it save's the town a kill if they're not.
All kills are unblockable anyway cos I'm not really thinking about setups with a lot of power roles, and b12 doesn't usually have doctors in the more regular games
Post by: RoseHeart on April 17, 2019, 05:32:28 pm
Quote
You're a piece of shit with no regards for the health of the game or meta
Quote
The cringeworthy larping and constant assertion of your own heroism is tiring
Quote
You did literally nothing while the game was alive and now you're just shitposting throughout it's corpse.
Quote
You could have contributed at any point in the game before day 3, but now you're doing nothing other than being a cunt. You acted like a cunt when you came in, you refused to play as part of the town, and you continued to do nothing but harass and annoy players with no intention of divining intent or role from any of it while you were dead.
Quote
I know you don't care, but you might want to consider the people who do.What exactly is your complaint with me dolores? Like, literally, what is your feedback/critque/criticism, I REALLY don't understand.
That I was "larping", being "heroic", what? What is that even? I am playing a game where I am the hero, literally that.is.the.game. You practically cackled (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7957695#msg7957695) when you revealed mafia.
You called me out on being less civil in the main thread. But you called me...
retarded (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7949765#msg7949765)
a piece of shit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7958687#msg7958687)
a cunt (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7958687#msg7958687)
And this is you, trying to hold back enough to stay on these forums? It is literally just that I choose not to submit a report you are. You've bullied me and other players, and even the host (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7952769#msg7952769). You claim you support this subforum, but it's some kind of slanted Darwinian elimination of people not up to your standard. That isn't fostering crap. Much less, community.
By your own admission (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7949824#msg7949824), I have...
Quote
been super active on the rest of the forumSo, yeah I didn't answer 50 questions a day, but I caught (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7949058#msg7949058) up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7949060#msg7949060) when (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7949076#msg7949076) I (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7949532#msg7949532) could (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.msg7949548#msg7949548).
I think you are a great player dolores, really, you are. There is a lot this community could learn from you if you stick around. But you can go back to what ever sad whole you crawled out of. The next time your run your mouth, I won't give you another chance.
Quote
Nirur doesn't know how to play so I can bully them while I waitThis is not funny.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 17, 2019, 05:50:47 pm
Also, as a reminder, while I don't often have to do much in the role I am a moderator on these sub-forums and have the ability to step in if things get out of hand. Feel free to report things to me that you don't feel warrant going all the way up to Toady One.
Post by: dolores on April 18, 2019, 12:08:32 am
What exactly is your complaint with me dolores? Like, literally, what is your feedback/critque/criticism, I REALLY don't understand.
Spoiler: The effort you put into mafia (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The effort you put into trolling (click to show/hide)
The fact that you think you did nothing wrong when literally every other active player called you out for it says more than I possibly could.
Post by: notquitethere on May 08, 2019, 08:47:16 pm
Every player is ranked in an open list which is updated at the start of every day. No player would be able to share the same number. Each player would have a standard ability (protect, block, watch, investigate etc.) but would also have the ability to move any other player one place up or down the list.
Actions in the game would be processed in strict list order. E.g. if your protect is processed after the kill, it won't do anything. With the profusion of roles and high chance of being messed with, there'd be an incentive to put yourself higher on the list. Perhaps the mafia team wouldn't have any special powers other than their kill so they'd be more likely to want to downgrade others-- but would risk outing themselves if they were the only players to do so.
A further possible twist is powers might have different effects on higher or lower ranking individuals (like, a protect against someone lower could count for double; or an inspect against someone higher could have 25% chance of being a false result).
Post by: notquitethere on May 14, 2019, 11:41:33 am
Post by: Superdorf on May 14, 2019, 11:48:13 am
Post by: notquitethere on May 14, 2019, 12:27:00 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 14, 2019, 12:30:18 pm
Post by: notquitethere on May 14, 2019, 03:08:58 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 14, 2019, 05:58:04 pm
I don't know what else you would call a system where the most collectively preferred options routinely loses when there are three or more parties or candidates. You're right though that (as seen with Arrows Impossibility Theorem) all voting systems are flawed.I don't consider that unreasonable, personally. FPTP is designed to select the candidate who is the top choice of the largest subgroup of people. "Collective preference" is not something that it considers, nor should it. FPTP just tries to maximise the number of people whose first choice is selected; there's nothing objectively wrong with that as a selection criterion.
Post by: Superdorf on May 14, 2019, 06:20:40 pm
Post by: notquitethere on May 30, 2019, 03:29:15 pm
Ghost Mafia
It's like regular mafia, except dead players don't have to leave the game when they die. They can keep posting in the thread and keep trying to get their picks lynched. They'd lose the ability to make votes and lose any night actions, but they could still make cases and try to be active. To avoid there just being a core of confirmed-town players making life a living nightmare for the bad guys, perhaps this game would be ran without alignment flips!
Post by: birdy51 on May 30, 2019, 09:54:55 pm
Post by: dolores on May 30, 2019, 11:09:11 pm
Ghost MafiaIt's good.
It's like regular mafia, except dead players don't have to leave the game when they die. They can keep posting in the thread and keep trying to get their picks lynched. They'd lose the ability to make votes and lose any night actions, but they could still make cases and try to be active. To avoid there just being a core of confirmed-town players making life a living nightmare for the bad guys, perhaps this game would be ran without alignment flips!
Personally, I don't think alignment flips matter. You can draw meta-conclusions based on them (knowing how certain players play esp. regarding scumchat in the QT) and there exists a game of wifom around that, but that's a pretty boring type of play in and of itself not to mention thwarting it relies almost entirely on acting in bad faith which seems like it defeats the whole purpose of playing the game.
Also encourages a 'don't sign up if you don't want to play' mentality. It's somewhat newbie hostile, but that's not really a bad thing anyhow.
I like it. I'd be super interested in a vanilla ghost mafia game.
Post by: Persus13 on May 31, 2019, 09:09:22 am
What I would be interested to see is if the D3 burnout would still happen in a game where everyone can post, and whether the ability to post would be enough for dead players to continue participating.
Post by: notquitethere on May 31, 2019, 10:43:37 am
Angry Ghosts (9+ players)
Two players begin the game dead, as Ghosts. One is an Angry Ghost, one is a Friendly Ghost. Their alignment is not public knowledge. Everyone else is a Medium. A certain number are aligned to the Angry Ghosts as Evil Mediums. Mediums who are killed become Ghosts, with Evil Mediums becoming Angry Ghosts.
Ghosts can communicate with everyone in the main thread, even though they're dead. They cannot vote, but the Friendly Ghosts will want to help the Good Mediums lynch all the Evil Mediums and vice versa. Angry Ghosts and their Evil Mediums will have a shared chat for scheming, but only Angry Ghosts perform the kills. Friendly Ghosts don't start with any hidden information, though the first one will know that the other starting Ghost is Angry (they are likely to begin the game both accusing one another).
Living players don't have any actions or any factional kill, but Ghosts do. Every Angry Ghost has a two-shot kill. Every Friendly Ghost has a one-shot protect and a one-shot track. Only one action can be performed per night. There are no alignment flips.
As in regular mafia: the good Mediums win when all the evil Mediums are dead and at least one good Medium is alive (to perform the banishment ritual); the Angry Ghosts win when everyone is an Angry Ghost (or, in game terms, when living evil mediums outnumber living good mediums).
Post by: Superdorf on May 31, 2019, 10:59:42 am
Post by: Shakerag on May 31, 2019, 11:01:39 am
Post by: notquitethere on May 31, 2019, 11:42:37 am
Intriguing. What would the win/loss ratio on that be?The ghost powers should balance out with the kills. Let's imagine 10 players, starting with 1 angry ghost and 2 evil mediums (three scum in total must be necessary, now I think of it, as otherwise game could end on D1). Let's play out the scenarios:
Scenario A:
D1 - town lynch town - 7 left alive
N1 - angry ghost kills one player. Two good ghosts fail to protect. - 6 left alive
D2 - town lynch scum - 5 left alive.
N2 - angry ghosts kill two players. One ghost fails to protect. Tracking ghosts clear each other. 3 left alive
D3 lylo
Scenario B:
D1 - town lynch scum - 7 left alive
N1 - both angry ghosts kill, but one kill is protected by starting ghost - 6 left alive
D2 - town lynch town - 5 left alive
N2 - both angry ghosts kill, one is successfully tracked by friendly ghost - 3 left alive
D3 lylo
Scenario C
D1 - town lynch town - 7 left alive
N1 - angry ghost kills town, both friendly ghosts track each other - 6 left alive
D2 - town lynch town - 5 left alive
N2 - angry ghost kills town, friendly ghosts fail to protect - 4 left alive
D3 - draw in voting- possibly stalemate depending on the draw mechanics
Scenario D
D1 - town lynch town - 7 left alive
N1 - angry ghost's kill is protected - 7 left alive
D2 - town lynch town - 6 left alive
N2 - angry ghost's kill is protected - 6 left alive
D3 - town kill town - 5 left alive
N3 - angry ghost is out of kills - two of the other four ghosts track each other - 5 left alive
D4 - MYLO - town kill scum - 4 left alive
N4 - angry ghost's kill is protected - 4 left alive
D5 - town kill town - 3 left alive
N5 - angry ghost's kill is protected - 3 left alive
D6 - lylo
Reflections:
- having limited kills can end the game in stalemate, which could be written up as a win for scum.
- the ghost's tracking power would help clear other ghosts- you could get a core of town-friendly ghosts who could then co-ordinate their protects.
- multiple scum kills should be balanced against multiple town protects
Post by: KitRougard on May 31, 2019, 12:19:25 pm
Post by: pisskop on June 19, 2019, 10:36:02 pm
Am I nuts to think this isnt balanced?
Quote
1 cop - sends results to the enabler, doesnt get results themselves
1 cop enabler
1 1shot citizen/wolf detector
1 two-shot tracker
4 citizen
1 roleblocker
1 wolf
1 Nerfed wolf - the first day that a scum is lynched, he cannot perform the nightkill that night
Im trying to be polite and say its not balanced but the hint is just not being caught. I even brought in a second opinion and they havent been able to avail.
Post by: dolores on June 19, 2019, 10:39:17 pm
Post by: pisskop on June 19, 2019, 10:42:19 pm
Post by: dolores on June 19, 2019, 10:52:27 pm
If a wolf is lynched D1 wolves can only kill/block one PR regardless of which it was. Three detection power roles active if none die D1.
If a town PR is lynched it reveals one scum.
2/3 wolves are acting every night (trackable). 2 cops and a tracker shooting into this.
Two mislynches (regardless of order of wolf killing), 3 scum.
I'd say it's townsided in a big way.
e: Wolves get two actions if nerfed wolf lynched D1
Still super pro-town, especially considering it's a 'scum lynched D1' beginning and it doesn't change the number of MLs
Post by: pisskop on June 20, 2019, 07:43:22 am
Post by: Superdorf on June 20, 2019, 03:09:06 pm
Post by: dolores on May 13, 2020, 04:58:30 pm
- no mislynches, game starts on lylo/mylo, no no-lynch (KotM rules)
- 72hr dayphase, no nightphase
- scum indicate to mod what player they want to kill in QT and most recently nominated player flips at the same time as the lynch
- game ends on first mislynch, scum and all NK'd town win. All town (alive and dead) win if all scum are lynched.
If a player is mislynched and NK'd at the same time they still win.
Please tell me why this is a terrible idea.
If there are inactive player(s) town/scum can quickhammer and start the 'next game' in <24hrs with all remaining players + any new if it's a mislynch so a persistently inactive player on D1 can just make the game end and restart in <48hr instead of costing everyone a 96x3hr game like they normally do hopefully.
Post by: Demonic Spoon on August 01, 2020, 02:15:35 pm
https://discord.gg/B7ANhME
channel name:
#clockwork-blood-oranges
Post by: RoseHeart on November 08, 2020, 08:41:04 pm
I'd be interested in a mafia with posting restrictions. Such as you must wait an hour before posting again, and possibly limiting things like skipping a phase until everyone has posted.
Post by: webadict on November 09, 2020, 09:31:52 am
I know atleast 1 other mafia player I in my last session agreed with me that the rate of play can be a lot to manage, and adjust to if that is even possible.It sounds like you want a longer game, and I'm not sure if we've had longer games that were super engaging and didn't die out. I could see how making that first restriction might make for an easier game if you have limited time to play, though. There was a game that ran a Twitter style limitation of 140 characters per post, and I think it might have been more manageable.
I'd be interested in a mafia with posting restrictions. Such as you must wait an hour before posting again, and possibly limiting things like skipping a phase until everyone has posted.
But, to me, that feels like an artificial lengthening of the game. I think games tend to have spikes and lulls, and the first restriction just caps the spike, and accentuates the lull. It would certainly be more easily managed, but it would come at a cost to player involvement. My opinion is that involvement is definitely more important, but it's possible that easily managed games could create an environment where players become involved.
The second restriction just seems like it would be a player defined decision. I could see that sucking for someone that isn't there, but generally, if a Shorten has been called for, there is a majority of players behind it, and another player showing up wouldn't change that result. Mafia, being a game of majority rule, seems to fit that.
Post by: RoseHeart on November 09, 2020, 10:20:20 am
I'm really interested you in particular webadict would humor the idea of a slower paced game, considering your high activity (relative to other players) in the other game. Would you actually possibly play something like that? Or were you more suggesting how others might be willing to play it?
Post by: webadict on November 09, 2020, 12:31:51 pm
Hmm, a character limit is interesting. The first few times I played Mafia were on GameFAQs. They were Smash Bros themed(with like Yoshi, Link, Mario, Pikachu, etc) on the Smash Bros board so no one was very familiar with mafia to begin with. This was the pace I first experienced and I loved it, but it's hard to find a similar beginner environment now.I probably wouldn't play. Not because I wouldn't want to, but more because my commitment level fluctuates hard. Some weeks I can commit to posting a lot, and some weeks I can't. Longer phases mean games that last for weeks or months.
I'm really interested you in particular webadict would humor the idea of a slower paced game, considering your high activity (relative to other players) in the other game. Would you actually possibly play something like that? Or were you more suggesting how others might be willing to play it?
But, I do know that some forums play with weeklong and I think I once saw a monthlong Phases. The longer the game goes for me, the easier it is to burn me out.
I am definitely into faster games, which is why it's easier for me to post a lot, but that style also works best when there are multiple players that thrive. For the most part, I was just externally debating with myself if it could work here, and the answer is probably yes, but games like that require dedicated players.
Usually I play faster paced mafia games nowadays, typically in person or Among Us or what have you. Simple and fast. Otherwise, I am usually waiting for something to happen, which is, well, boring.
Post by: RoseHeart on November 09, 2020, 02:30:48 pm
Post by: webadict on November 09, 2020, 02:37:52 pm
Well it definitely was a whiplash experience for me, to go from a 5 day phase, to a shortened 1 day phase. I imagined something closer to 2 day phases, so even with less posting, not an especially longer experience. Definitely not months, as those smash bros mafias didn't last all that long.To be far, most phases do usually last 72 hours. Sometimes, there are just reasons they don't, but I'll avoid discussing a game currently ongoing.
Post by: RoseHeart on November 09, 2020, 04:55:18 pm
Post by: RoseHeart on November 09, 2020, 05:03:59 pm
Each player begins with 3HP, which is reset each day phase.
Each hour, you can hurt (remove 1) or heal (add 1) to a different player's HP total, but it cannot go above 3.
Whether you hurt or heal, or do not do either, you can only post after a full 60 minutes have passed from your last post. Day phase lasts 72 hours, and Night lasts 24 hours.
Post by: webadict on November 09, 2020, 05:36:42 pm
Hurt and Heal MafiaThere was a game mode like this on Xylbot. It was essentially a game of shooting people with random guns you got at the beginning of the game.
Each player begins with 3HP, which is reset each day phase.
Each hour, you can hurt (remove 1) or heal (add 1) to a different player's HP total, but it cannot go above 3.
Whether you hurt or heal, or do not do either, you can only post after a full 60 minutes have passed from your last post. Day phase lasts 72 hours, and Night lasts 24 hours.
It would likely turn out where your goal is simply to kill as many people as you can as fast as you can. At least, that's how the metagame of that game usually went. And it would favor the people that logged in every hour to shoot someone.
Oh OK, good to note. Yeah I'll just keep trying every now and then. You once made a suggestion for 2 driver mario kart mafia, I kind of feel that I need to double myself to keep up, so perhaps something like that would be up my ally. If I was going to host mafia though I should probably do something fairly vanilla. Perhaps a minimalistic one with posting restrictions and about 72 hour phases.That actually could work, with more players available. I did have a two-person player in one of my games once, and the player who had that was quite fond of the role (even thought it did turn them into a Serial Killer.)
You could have everyone pick a list of players to join up with and form teams of 2 or more, and play mafia with that. It'd let you do a bit of interesting twists with games and mechanics.
Post by: RoseHeart on November 11, 2020, 09:17:12 pm
Post by: hector13 on November 11, 2020, 09:29:10 pm
Post by: webadict on November 15, 2020, 08:39:18 pm
At the beginning of the game, reveal the number of Mafia players. All other players are Town.
Game Starts at Night 0.
All players have various roles with any number of actions.
Undecided on whether the mafia should kill. Since these games are typically fast, it wouldn't be a huge detriment.
Players still vote to lynch one player at the end of the Day.
At the end of the Day, before the lynch is revealed, all Town players must submit a list of players equal to the number of Mafia players that they believe make up the Mafia.
After the lists are submitted, all players receive points based on their own performance:
- All Mafia players receive points based on the number of Town players that did not submit their name. They receive an additional point if a Mafia player was not lynched.
- All Town players receive points based on the number of Mafia players their list contains. Additionally, they lose points for each player that listed them as Mafia. They receive an additional point if a Mafia player was lynched.
At the end of the round, the players are ranked by their number of points.
The aim of the game is to make a fast version of mafia that compresses much of the game into a small timespan. It has an action economy meant to vary depending on what is wanted, and has the ability to make open, closed, semi-open, and bastard games out of the format. And, it judges players based on their ability to avoid scrutiny and play their alignment well, as well as granting bonus points to the team that can get the edge on the lynch. Its downsides are in that one day obviously isn't a lot to go on, so I didn't want to focus a majority of the points on the result of the day.
Thoughts?
Post by: notquitethere on November 24, 2020, 11:59:11 am
NQT ( I think, it may have been flabort) ran a game many years ago with a mechanic like that. You were assigned an alignment and you were then assigned some currency and could buy and sell various abilities in the shop.That's right, the Choose-Your-Own-Mafia series.
Post by: hector13 on November 24, 2020, 02:26:41 pm
flabort may have been the one that used an ability to continually inflate the price of something so they ended up with lots of currency.NQT ( I think, it may have been flabort) ran a game many years ago with a mechanic like that. You were assigned an alignment and you were then assigned some currency and could buy and sell various abilities in the shop.That's right, the Choose-Your-Own-Mafia series.
I think they may have actually been my third mafia game on the forum actually, since I remember being very pleased at being third-party, but failing entirely because Tiruin said everybody had an ability that countered what I was doing, so I didn’t do it.
Post by: Persus13 on November 24, 2020, 03:51:02 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 24, 2020, 07:43:12 pm
God those games were clusterfucks. Fun as hell, but major clusterfucks.
Post by: notquitethere on November 26, 2020, 11:28:43 am
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2020, 11:38:10 am
Post by: RoseHeart on December 01, 2020, 12:03:53 am
One where things are regular, so no shortening, but also explain why lynch kills can only happen at the very end.
I remembered an episode of The Outer Limits, where a person had volunteered to be in a deep underground bunker, with access to launch nukes on the surface in case the world was invaded by Aliens. There were others in these bunkers, always 1 person per bunker, all with the same power, and they stayed in communication with each other and played chess or chatted at mealtime over the monitors.
It would be an interesting setup if each player is in an isolated bunker, and they can vote for a lynch and when the time runs out the chosen victim's slaughter is automated. This fits the aesthetic of the group not being able to just strangle them until that final moment.
Post by: Vector on December 20, 2020, 02:41:56 am
Horatio Hall: *rises from the dead*
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 29, 2020, 09:38:22 pm
Post by: webadict on December 29, 2020, 09:45:51 pm
If this nonsense keeps going viral through next summer... Poor choice of words.
Post by: webadict on December 29, 2020, 09:47:54 pm
But do it!If this nonsense keeps going viral through next summer... Poor choice of words.
Post by: Toaster on January 05, 2021, 08:42:10 pm
That said, rereading Third Party Mafia (and also Roguelike Mafia) made me pine for them a bit. With the benefit of much hindsight I feel like Roguelike Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80808.0) might be a bit too random to balance out, but that's also sort of the main idea. I'd certainly want to go over the item list before I even considered it again.
Post by: notquitethere on January 06, 2021, 01:56:19 pm
Some changes:
1 - It's now class based, with lower-level powers needed to be purchased before higher level powers.
2 - You pick your species before the game starts which are equivalent to the old auto protections in the last game.
3 - You're given a random profession, like in normal mafia games, but after the end of D1 the direction you go in is completely up to the players.
4 - The aim of 2 & 3 is to prevent ability/species/profession choice from being instantly suspicious. This should open up some nice variety of roles while still allowing huge amount of freedom of choice and strategising later on.
5 - To that end there are 12 unique professions, each with 4 unique abilities, for 48 abilities in total (49 including the mafiakill).
6 - To make fake claims easier, there are no direct role or alignment inspects.
Spoiler: CYOM - Redux (click to show/hide)
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 07, 2021, 02:14:59 pm
1. Witch seems incredibly powerful as a town path. While it's level one is garbage, its level 3 is situational and its level four is mediocre, Read Entrails is essentially an automatic alignment inspect on the N1 mafiakiller due to kills always happening last and kill actions not coming online till level 3.
2. Flowermaiden is straight up awful until you get its rank 4 power. Ability type inspections are essentially deadweight abilities due to town and scum having access to the same ability sets and its rank 3 power only works on a handful of archetypes (necromancer, those empowered by doge, and those with rank 4 day powers) and overlaps with its rank 4. Its rank 4 is good, as a kill action that (if I understand things correctly) bypasses protection, but you're stuck taking three days worth of useless powers to get there.
3. Merchant creates an easy breaking strategy where everyone just agrees at the start of the game to go down the merchant path and endlessly sell each other things until day 5 or 6 where everyone has enough gold to win. Even with that aside, alternate win conditions are counterproductive to the town if anyone takes them since they have little incentive to pursue the primary town wincon.
4. The public actions are all extremely obvious. One is a daykill so knowing who targeted who tells you who performed it, and the other two can be easily determined: a doge is fairly obvious due to their votesteal ability so anyone who hasn't votestolen before is a spy using booby trap, and by that point in the game a massclaim will have happened anyway.
5. You just couldn't resist putting in Changeling, could you?
6. Poison and infect removal exists on only a single archetype as its level 4 ability, by the time they unlock it that ability is unlikely to make a difference as the first round of infects and poisons will have already gone off and quite possibly decided the game.
7. The game is essentially over once N4 hits, as by that point pretty much every archetype has access to kills and it's a matter of how the kills, protects, and shields shake out overnight, which heavily favors the scumteam due to their ability to coordinate.
8. Stoneman creates a weird dilemma for the town: it's unambiguously the best pick to avoid early mafia multikills using poison and infect, but it also completely screws the town out of any possible use of medium, channel, resurrect, or (most importantly) read entrails if the whole town takes it. The mafia team doesn't have this dilemma as they don't especially care about conversing with the dead or finding out who killed them (non-poison/infect town kills don't properly come online until "everybody dies night") and by the end of the game there will be too many kills flying around for reviving a dead scum to be worth it. It also puts necromancer in a weird position where the entire archetype can be rendered useless by optimal choices.
Those are just some things I noticed from scanning over it.
Post by: Vector on January 07, 2021, 02:38:05 pm
6 - To make fake claims easier, there are no direct role or alignment inspects.
I'm into this.
Post by: Nirur Torir on January 07, 2021, 04:25:36 pm
5-6 players, 1 confirmed scum IC player, 1 scum beginner, 3-4 townies. It probably needs a neutral IC spectating and kibitzing, to keep the scum IC honest.
No roles or night kills, and the IC cannot be lynched.
The game ends when only 2 townies remain or if the beginner scum gets lynched.
I imagine that playing around a known scum would help with figuring out how to play off of guesses, and with seeing who has extra information. The small player count would, of course, make it much easier to start a game and get more beginners into the subforum.
Post by: Vector on January 07, 2021, 04:27:36 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 07, 2021, 04:43:39 pm
Crazy setup idea for a smaller beginner's mafia that the Vengeful setup triggered:Hmm.
5-6 players, 1 confirmed scum IC player, 1 scum beginner, 3-4 townies. It probably needs a neutral IC spectating and kibitzing, to keep the scum IC honest.
No roles or night kills, and the IC cannot be lynched.
The game ends when only 2 townies remain or if the beginner scum gets lynched.
I imagine that playing around a known scum would help with figuring out how to play off of guesses, and with seeing who has extra information. The small player count would, of course, make it much easier to start a game and get more beginners into the subforum.
I like the idea, but I'm not sure having an open scum, especially an experienced one, would teach what you're hoping for here. Scum use extra information and coordinate with one another so long as they are hidden, but the moment a scum is outed pretty much everything they say from that point becomes worthless. Everyone knows they're lying and trying to mislead you, and they know that everyone knows they're scum, so best policy is to completely tune out a 100% caught scum. In a lot of other communities an outed scum is generally expected to either stay quiet or "lolcat" (post funny pictures) until their lynch because nobody is actually going to read the stuff they say anyway.
Post by: notquitethere on January 08, 2021, 07:42:35 am
4mask, you missed that Doctors can cleanse poison and infect from first level. An incredibly brutal D4+ is perfectly fine I feel-- everyone having access to kills potentially doesn't mean everyone genuinely will have kills by that point or use them, if previously CYOMs are anything to go by (only a minority of players chose vig roles).
Does the fact that species is chosen before you get alignment change things? Players don't know they're town before they pick pro or anti town species. Also, players rarely make the same judgement as to 'optimal' choice. With the nerfing of poison and infection, I don't think everyone will pick Stonemen, though some people will (especially as a lot of players will want to have the option of being resurrected).
I've made a bunch of changes, including a new profession. Any new thoughts?
Spoiler: Changelog (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: CYOM - Redux (click to show/hide)
Post by: RoseHeart on January 08, 2021, 10:58:42 am
Post by: notquitethere on January 08, 2021, 11:03:17 am
Do hosts typically opt for Quicktopic Pro?I don't think I've ever used it as a host. What would be the benefit?
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 08, 2021, 11:04:32 am
Do hosts typically opt for Quicktopic Pro?I’ve certainly never done it. I didn’t know that was even a thing.
Post by: RoseHeart on January 08, 2021, 11:10:35 am
Post by: TricMagic on January 08, 2021, 11:53:50 am
Post by: webadict on January 08, 2021, 12:17:28 pm
I think it's for the various chat groups. Mafia, the dead, Masons. Mostly Mafia, better than constant PM.rose means the Pro part. I don't have Pro, so you should be fine.
Post by: RoseHeart on January 08, 2021, 12:28:00 pm
Post by: RoseHeart on January 08, 2021, 12:37:48 pm
I did not see any settings to adjust privacy setting for the board either.
Edit: Apparently I am supposed to use my emails 'Forward function' when I do finally recieve it. (hopefully I can just 'pluck' the special link and PM it to people here.)
Anyone else have these issues, why is this so complicated????
Post by: Vector on January 08, 2021, 12:40:22 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 08, 2021, 12:42:18 pm
Normally you just give someone the quicktopic link, and then they post in it. Is that not working for you?This, roseheart. For example, Welcome to Paranormal 25 Deadchat (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/Cxe3rceaEELup). Although obviously you'd send it over PMs during the game itself.
Post by: RoseHeart on January 08, 2021, 12:44:12 pm
Normally you just give someone the quicktopic link, and then they post in it. Is that not working for you?This, roseheart. For example, Welcome to Paranormal 25 Deadchat (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/Cxe3rceaEELup). Although obviously you'd send it over PMs during the game itself.
I am trying out a quicktopic in a nonmafia game rn.
Edit: OK, it may just be an issue with this persons' PC, I'll know more when another tries to join.
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 08, 2021, 12:45:17 pm
Same principle applies, just send the link to the quicktopic over PMs or post it in the main thread.Normally you just give someone the quicktopic link, and then they post in it. Is that not working for you?This, roseheart. For example, Welcome to Paranormal 25 Deadchat (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/Cxe3rceaEELup). Although obviously you'd send it over PMs during the game itself.
I am trying out a quicktopic in a nonmafia game rn.
Post by: notquitethere on January 08, 2021, 12:45:29 pm
Post by: RoseHeart on January 08, 2021, 12:50:53 pm
Loyal Audience Member,
ArenaCraft does hereby invite you to sit on the council of law:
https://www.quicktopic.com/[REDACTED]
Dear arena master,it looks like I need a proper invitation card to be allowed access to the law council. The animated armor guard just repeatedly keeps saying 'forbidden, you are not allowed access to this room.'
(Do I need something to access the quicktopic?) :D
Hmm, how about now?: https://www.quicktopic.com/[REDACTED]
I'll try to open it on my computer tomorrow as I'm going to sleep right now. The error seems to be with quicktopic website(not even their homepage or FAQ can be opened) or my browser. I'll hopefully fix it tomorrow.
Post by: notquitethere on January 08, 2021, 12:54:59 pm
2. Click New Topic
3. Give the topic a name.
4. Create a post in the thread
5. Copy and paste the url from the address bar.
I just did the above steps, it took 30 seconds. Here's what I got: https://www.quicktopic.com/53/H/3FfBEgvqe7J6
Post by: RoseHeart on January 08, 2021, 12:59:40 pm
(Thanks)
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 08, 2021, 01:13:05 pm
Any guesses what their problem accessing it might be? (Has no one ever had a similar issue on the Mafia sub?)I can't remember any, unfortunately. If it's a new topic you just set up maybe try making a new one, if you haven't already? Otherwise I have literally no idea.
Post by: Vector on January 08, 2021, 01:16:16 pm
Post by: RoseHeart on January 08, 2021, 01:18:28 pm
Edit: They can post!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 08, 2021, 06:07:21 pm
[insert flavortext here]
~~~
This is Mostly Vanilla Mafia 2, a closed-setup game of forum mafia. I will be taking any number of players that want to join, but over 9 is preferable. Both new players and veterans are welcome to join - while everyone will have a power role (no boring Vanilla Townies and Mafiosos here), the hypercomplexity of games like BYORs will be absent. A few notes:
The game is called Mostly Vanilla Mafia because most roles will be vanilla and a few will be mostly vanilla. There's a difference between an Odd-Night Cop and a Pyromaniac Cop, after all. The existence of unusual role modifiers and combinations is something you'll have to watch out for - don't try to outguess the mod. The mafiascum wiki (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Main_Page) will have most or all of the role names you'll see in the game.
The days will not be allowed to drag on. In the interest of creating a game that doesn't drag on forever and leave players exhausted and unmotivated, I'm taking a few pages out of Wuba's book. 72 hour Days, 24 hour Nights, no extensions (except mod-instituted in the event of a daykill, replacement, or such). Hammers will be in full effect (when the majority of players are voting a single target, the Day immediately ends and that player is lynched). I hope that this shift will produce a faster and more enjoyable game.
A few ability types are ruled out and will not appear in the setup. No manipulation of votes, and no alignment conversion. Roles can still involve voting, such as with a Mostly Vanilla 'Vindictive' modifier that means you can only target players who were voting you at the end of the previous Day, and roles can still be changed without changing the alignment (with an Ice Cream Man or such). Additionally, just like in the previous Mostly Vanilla Mafia game, your role will not have any hidden modifiers - if you're a Cop, you won't secretly be Insane. It is possible for role flips to be obscured by a Janitor, but role flips will not lie (though let's be honest, this is just basic decency).
Here's an example list of vanilla and Mostly Vanilla roles, along with the alignments they would be given to.
Spoiler: List (click to show/hide)
Open to comments and feedback. I reserve the right to use example roles in the actual game, but that is not guaranteed.
Post by: Vector on January 08, 2021, 06:26:35 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 08, 2021, 07:22:50 pm
Post by: Vector on January 08, 2021, 07:26:41 pm
Post by: notquitethere on January 08, 2021, 08:19:35 pm
Post by: RoseHeart on January 08, 2021, 08:48:52 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 08, 2021, 08:58:36 pm
The solution for me is no extensions except by mod discretion. If you give players voteable or one-shot extensions, they use them and days last forever and it doesn't seem to be to the benefit of the players ultimately. Conversation takes the time you give for it to happen.I think I'll use that, yeah.
Hey look it's FallacyofUrist!!It'same!
Post by: TricMagic on January 10, 2021, 02:03:40 pm
Should I setup https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=We_Need_A_Fifth (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=We_Need_A_Fifth) ? That small game went pretty quick.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 10, 2021, 04:46:44 pm
Daykill BYOR: everyone submits a role name and receives back a role. The twist? There's only one Day. Everyone has a one-shot daykill ability of some kind and one other ability. Anyone can shoot anyone, and the mafia have a spare one-shot factional daykill too. Will get violent very quickly, and probably require multiple mods so the actions can be resolved quickly, along with potentially something like a 'no day killing for two hours after a day kill occurs and game start' moratorium. If all daykills are expended and no team has won, everyone gets their daykill shots expended at once.
KOTMBSER: King Of The Mafia (Bring Someone Else's Role). 7 players. Each one submits three role names to the pool, moderator adds five more role names to mess with claiming, each player has a role name randomly assigned to them and developed into a role. Then one player is chosen as King of the Mafia, the sole mafia player. If they win despite the chaos, they're crowned and are the winner of the game. If they die (and stay dead), the round ends, new players are added in (each one submits three role names to the pool to grow it before their assignment), players who survived the round get a moderate bonus of some kind, then a new King of the Mafia is chosen. The choice of the new King of the Mafia is weighted towards players with the greatest number of rounds survived, but it's not totally determined, just weighted, so anyone can be a suspect. Probably more of a headache to run, I recommend simpler role generation.
Too Many Mafias: 9 players, 2 mafia teams of 3 players each (who need to eliminate the other mafia team to win), except there's a serial killer player who gets a false mafia role and is inserted into both scum teams. Mafia teams vote on who gets to fire the mafiakill that belongs to their team. 4 town players, who would have a rough time being caught in the middle, but the serial killer needs to work to eliminate the mafia, and the town's role powers are on average stronger than the scum and serial killer players. Alternatively, 3 mafia teams of 2 players each, and the SK is inserted into only 2 of those mafia teams, and there's some sort of restriction on the mafiakill.
Post by: notquitethere on January 10, 2021, 05:03:21 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on January 10, 2021, 05:25:20 pm
Daykill BYOR: everyone submits a role name and receives back a role. The twist? There's only one Day. Everyone has a one-shot daykill ability of some kind and one other ability. Anyone can shoot anyone, and the mafia have a spare one-shot factional daykill too. Will get violent very quickly, and probably require multiple mods so the actions can be resolved quickly, along with potentially something like a 'no day killing for two hours after a day kill occurs and game start' moratorium. If all daykills are expended and no team has won, everyone gets their daykill shots expended at once.This has sort of happened before. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137539.msg5226263#msg5226263) It did not end well.
Post by: webadict on January 10, 2021, 05:57:45 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 10, 2021, 06:40:37 pm
I've been thinking that if people enjoy this game mode enough, we should have an unofficial version during the "off-season", which would run endlessly.Endless KOTM?
That is, once the thread starts it would run over and over as players try to get as many King Mafia wins as possible. It would be fun to have a high score list in the OP or something.
And! It would be good practice for when next year's KotM actually happens, whenever Toaster plans on hosting, that is.
(I read Toony's reference and it was hilarious. Makes me want to do a hyper-daykill setup even more.)
FoU, I like that nested idea of an SK hidden within the mafia team but you'd need to create some incentive or mechanic so the SK can't just reveal the scum team (say, when things are going badly for them).Revealing the scum team makes it obvious that he's the SK, doesn't it? If the scum assign their mafiakill by vote, they can just shoot him. Or town vig kill.
Post by: notquitethere on January 10, 2021, 11:11:22 pm
You know, if we have open setups, we don't even need a moderator to run the game. All that needs to be done is to reveal your role when you die and continue the game.Can the bot automate role PM sending?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 10, 2021, 11:23:55 pm
"Hey I'm a cop and I'm inspecting you, what's your alignment?" What if a roleblocker sends a PM to the cop that they're blocking them right after? This would also reveal the cop's identity to who they're checking.
It would be really funny for mafia to just PM someone and be like "hey we're killing you tonight so post your role PM tomorrow".
Post by: webadict on January 10, 2021, 11:26:12 pm
Uh, yes, I'm about 99% sure it could, and in a relatively short time. It just needs real testing before it does. The real issue is that I can't send by username at the moment. I need to get the user ID, since that's how the PM page reads it (Without having the decoding that's done through the site. I could potentially set something up that gets the ID in the future.)You know, if we have open setups, we don't even need a moderator to run the game. All that needs to be done is to reveal your role when you die and continue the game.Can the bot automate role PM sending?
Short answer is yes. Long answer is yes, but in like a couple days or so.
Should we attempt a non-moderated version of Mafia?
How would actions work at night?This wouldn't currently work with the no-mod version. But, no-mod Mafia would be small setups that don't have a Cop or Roleblocker in them. However, essentially, yes, that's how the Mafiakill would work.
"Hey I'm a cop and I'm inspecting you, what's your alignment?" What if a roleblocker sends a PM to the cop that they're blocking them right after? This would also reveal the cop's identity to who they're checking.
It would be really funny for mafia to just PM someone and be like "hey we're killing you tonight so post your role PM tomorrow".
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 11, 2021, 09:52:24 am
Daykill BYOR: everyone submits a role name and receives back a role. The twist? There's only one Day. Everyone has a one-shot daykill ability of some kind and one other ability. Anyone can shoot anyone, and the mafia have a spare one-shot factional daykill too. Will get violent very quickly, and probably require multiple mods so the actions can be resolved quickly, along with potentially something like a 'no day killing for two hours after a day kill occurs and game start' moratorium. If all daykills are expended and no team has won, everyone gets their daykill shots expended at once.Some larger communities run games known as "Mashes" which use a similar mechanic (everyone has a certain number of in-thread attacks every day, which are basically public daykills with a low % chance of success) and they are generally pretty popular. They wouldn't work here, though, because a) for the sake of mod sanity they basically require dedicated automation software which we don't have and b) they're designed around having an enormous number of players (the smallest I've seen is in the mid 30s).
Post by: notquitethere on January 11, 2021, 01:24:07 pm
Some players won't want to risk the RNG and so will expand outwards instead of downwards.
Spoiler: CYOM Redux v.3 (click to show/hide)
Post by: ToonyMan on January 16, 2021, 12:21:38 am
We've been recently doing quick games of Blood on Clocktower (https://bloodontheclocktower.com/) on discord! Great fun but it only really shines at 7+ players, which we have trouble hitting consistently. Usually we play saturdays around 2-3 pm EST if I recall my timezones correctly, but stoirtap, the storyteller, seems willing to run more if more players were available at other times.This setup looks really cool. Not only do you need to find the demon, but also figure out what kind of demon it is.
https://discord.gg/B7ANhME
channel name:
#clockwork-blood-oranges
I wonder how I could make it work as a forum mafia...
Post by: Skynet on January 16, 2021, 09:58:21 am
Too Many Mafias: 9 players, 2 mafia teams of 3 players each (who need to eliminate the other mafia team to win), except there's a serial killer player who gets a false mafia role and is inserted into both scum teams. Mafia teams vote on who gets to fire the mafiakill that belongs to their team. 4 town players, who would have a rough time being caught in the middle, but the serial killer needs to work to eliminate the mafia, and the town's role powers are on average stronger than the scum and serial killer players. Alternatively, 3 mafia teams of 2 players each, and the SK is inserted into only 2 of those mafia teams, and there's some sort of restriction on the mafiakill.
I like this idea a lot (I've been interested in three-way Mafia wars). I wonder if we can use the fluff in Religion Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=40425.0) (both game #1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=40657.msg715635#msg715635) and game #2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=41492.msg747501#msg747501)) as inspiration for this setup, since it was designed for conflict between two scum teams.
Post by: Skynet on January 17, 2021, 09:59:52 am
Day start.
Vanilla Mafia
Vanilla Mafia
Vanilla Werewolf
Vanilla Werewolf
Town Police (determines if someone is a Mafia)
Town Police (determines if someone is a Mafia)
Town Seeer (determines if someone is a Werewolf)
Town Seeer (determines if someone is a Werewolf)
Godfather Serial Killer (is part of both the Mafia and Werewolf scumteams, but wins individually - shows as Non-Mafia on Police inspects and Non-Werewolf on Seerer inspects)
All scum-kills are identified (so you know who the Mafia killed and who the Werewolf killed).
Victory Conditions
- Mafia wins when the Mafia team controls the daygame vote (50% + 1) and the Serial Killer is dead.
- Werewolf wins when the Werewolf team controls the daygame vote (50% + 1) and the Serial Killer is dead.
- Town wins when all scum roles (Mafia, Werewolf, and Serial Killer) are dead.
- Serial Killer wins when they are one of the last two surviving players or if all other players are dead. (Serial Killer does not need to be alive to win.)
If the last two surviving players are Vanilla Mafia and Vanilla Werewolf, then they cross-kill each other, so the Serial Killer wins.
If the last two surviving players is non-SK scum (Vanilla Mafia or Vanilla Werewolf) and a Townie (Police or Seerer), then the non-SK scum team kills the Townie player and wins.
Other Notes
The Godfather Serial Killer shows up Non-Mafia and Non-Werewolf on inspects...meaning they are indistinguishable from a Townie. This is a double-edged sword...it means the SK gets the trust of the Town Power-Roles, but it may also mean that both scumteams can easily see through the SK's facade.
Scumkills are determined by majority vote (50% + 1) within each of the scum team. If there is a tie, no mafia-kill takes place. A scum-team needs to lose one person for the other two people to know who's the SK and who's normal scum...and it also means that the SK is able to block scumkills from taking place, meaning the normal scum need to cooperate with the SK team temporarily at night, while manipulating the daygame to get rid of the traitor (which might be challenging: everyone hates the SK...but exposing your scum-affiliation in the process would hurt your chances of winning).
Power-Roles are indeed pretty powerful, at least when compared to the Vanilla Mafia/Werewolf, but since they're all inspection roles, it's possible for the scum to do a believable fake-claim and avoid suspicion. Also, the scum, as a whole, controls the daygame, so the Town is highly dependent on cross-kills and cross-lynches to help them gain ownership of the daygame vote.
EDIT: If scum kills off each other, there's a possibility that the Serial Killer could gain control over both scumkills. To prevent the SK from being overpowered though...the SK can only use one of those scumkills per night. They cannot use both.
EDIT 2: It seems that the "all other players are dead" wincon for the SK would mean they would win in a scenario where you have one Vanilla Mafia, one Vanilla Werewolf, and one SK. The SK won't vote for their own lynch, and even if Mafia and Werewolf votes to take out the third role, then they'll just crosskill each other later on...so the SK would still win.
If you had one Vanilla Mafia, one Vanilla Werewolf, and one Townie, then it's likely either the Townie or the SK would win (unless one scum-team agrees to get themselves lynched/killed so the other scum-team wins). If the scum agree to lynch the Townie, then they'll cross-kill in the night, letting the SK win... and if the scum does a No-Lynch, they will probably still cross-kill each other, but the Townie would win because he's the last surviving player (and the SK wins only if all players die).
I don't know how best to handle that - is it a feature the SK could be able to win this way? I also wonder if I should move the "all other players are dead" wincon over to the Town side, to help give them a boost of sorts (they're already reliant on cross-kills anyway to help them win).
Post by: notquitethere on January 17, 2021, 11:09:31 am
Post by: ToonyMan on January 17, 2021, 11:29:37 am
To twist my CYOM Redux setup a little more, I've decided to add flaws back in. In order to get access to more powerful (and deadly) abilities, or start with more abilities, players take flaws. Flaws can never be ameliorated or detected, are random, permanent and usually pretty bad. The aim here is to aid also in fakeclaims (e.g. someone who takes a public action might fakeclaim to have the Usual Suspect flaw).This looks good.
Some players won't want to risk the RNG and so will expand outwards instead of downwards.Spoiler: CYOM Redux v.3 (click to show/hide)
EDIT: If scum kills off each other, there's a possibility that the Serial Killer could gain control over both scumkills. To prevent the SK from being overpowered though...the SK can only use one of those scumkills per night. They cannot use both.What happens if the SK needs to perform both nightkills for the mafia and the werewolf team on the same night? I guess it doesn't really matter since the only town powers are investigators.
The SK seems OP in this but it does look crazy and chaotic.
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2021, 11:36:09 am
Post by: Leafsnail on January 17, 2021, 11:38:08 am
Post by: notquitethere on January 17, 2021, 11:44:47 am
Post by: Skynet on January 17, 2021, 12:29:33 pm
What happens if the SK needs to perform both nightkills for the mafia and the werewolf team on the same night? I guess it doesn't really matter since the only town powers are investigators.Yeah, since there's no watchers or roleblockers, it doesn't matter who actually get "sent" out to do the scumkills. I would just allow the SK to perform both nightkills.
You could easily pad the game out with a whole load of vanilla townies. I think there should probably be at least two more town players so they have a strict majority over all scum at the game start.
I agree. 2 VT seems like the minimum necessary for the setup to work and give Town a fighting chance that doesn't involve relying on cross-kills. It is possible that we would need more VTs, but 11 roles is already a lot as it is, so let's just stick with 2 VT for now.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 17, 2021, 10:38:26 pm
Point 1: The adoption of a (quite different) phase system. The game is divided into 18 hour 'Safe' phases and 6 hour 'Danger' phases. During the Safe phase, players can vote - but instead of eliminating a player, it's a protection effect - whoever gets the most votes is immune to all daykills during the next Danger phase. Daykill abilities can only be used during the Danger phase. This limitation means the mod doesn't have to be on constantly, ready to process kills. Additionally, only up to 3 kills can be used per Danger phase, and after a kill is used, there's a 1-hour cooldown before another one can be used. (Special abilities can bypass the 3-kill limit and the cooldown limit, but no special ability can break the vote shield or fire a kill during the Safe phase.)
Point 2: Daykills are public by default. This means that anyone who fires a kill without a rare cloaking ability of some kind will be known to be the one who fired the kill.
Post by: webadict on January 17, 2021, 11:03:14 pm
I think, if you wanted to do something with daykills and have it be smaller, that system might work better. Implementing action phases (Say, 1 action every 24 hours, and the ability to queue multiple actions if you were away) would make this a very simple setup, and you could add a lot of options to the game.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 17, 2021, 11:05:42 pm
Post by: webadict on January 17, 2021, 11:07:15 pm
Post by: webadict on January 17, 2021, 11:16:04 pm
Post by: TricMagic on January 18, 2021, 10:11:07 am
As a small game mode, we could play a modified version of One Night Ultimate Werewolf.
Idea.
Many Werewolves, a small Core Town who knows about each other(The mafia in this game). Town wins when they equal the Werewolves. Werewolves are on their own. Town has someone who will kill a werewolf if they are targeted, so they need to be lynched.
Critics?
Post by: webadict on January 18, 2021, 08:19:24 pm
Doppelgangers, Sentinels, Revealers, and Curators are the only roles that cause significant headaches, and if used in the same game, it could be even more unwieldy. These first two roles would encompass a Night Phase A, where they would choose their targets immediately, and then all other actions would happen in Night Phase B. The last two roles technically suffer from having to occur simultaneously, and when combined with the Doppelganger... Well, whatever.
However, there is a bit of beauty to this, as we're less limited by the system, and using some rule changes would allow for an elimination of these issues as well as the usage of some more customized roles.
For those not in the know about One Night Ultimate Werewolf (and the Daybreak expansion), here's all the rules:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And here's the roles (as well as a close approximation to role priority):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Artifacts (click to show/hide)
So, as a Night action focused game type, it works really well. I think it could be a fun mode to run as a small type.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 18, 2021, 10:50:23 pm
1 Mafioso
1 Jester
3 Vanilla Townies
If a townie is lynched or the day ends with a no lynch, the mafioso wins. If the day ends with a mafioso lynch, the townies win. If the day ends with a jester lynch, only the jester wins. No hammers are used.
The small catch is that the mafioso gets a 1-shot daykill that can be used after a certain time threshold - if it's a five day long game, perhaps let the mafioso use it after two or three days have passed? The jester doesn't win if they're shot after all, and the mafioso has an incentive to find the jester to avoid risking them getting lynched and thus losing the game.
The end result could be an interesting game that actually gets away with using a jester to good effect? But if there's any flaws in it, let me know.
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 18, 2021, 10:59:19 pm
Mafia 60%
Jester 20%
Town 20%
Estimated winrate percentages (with daykill):
Mafia 56.25%
Jester 18.75%
Town 25%
Post by: Caz on January 19, 2021, 11:16:26 am
As a small game mode, we could play a modified version of One Night Ultimate Werewolf.
Idea.
Many Werewolves, a small Core Town who knows about each other(The mafia in this game). Town wins when they equal the Werewolves. Werewolves are on their own. Town has someone who will kill a werewolf if they are targeted, so they need to be lynched.
Critics?
...How do the werewolves win? They are basically SKs right?
Post by: TricMagic on January 19, 2021, 12:43:49 pm
Post by: Skynet on January 23, 2021, 08:10:01 am
Continuing along the idea of setups allowing for small games and such, I've been wondering if there's a way to actually use the Jester alignment in a productive manner.
I would do that by having a setup where you only have two factions: Jester-Mafia and Town. The Jester-Mafia wins when all Jester-Mafiosos are lynched. Jester-Mafia must compulsively nightkill. Meanwhile, Town wins when their numbers equal the number of Jester-Mafiosos.
This flips the meta on its head. Jester-Mafiosos must appear to be Town in order to get lynched, which means they have to actually participate instead of just trying to annoy people. Town must identify and lynch those who are most Townie, but by doing so, spare the lives of "scummier" players, which may lead to the Town to accidentally lynch Jester-Mafiosos instead. Jester-Mafia can use its nightkill strategically to get rid of Townie players and make themselves good candidates for a lynch.
I know I saw this setup on Mafiascum, but I don't remember its exact name. If I find out, I'll edit it into this post.
EDIT: Ah, here it is. Vote For Town Mafia (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vote_for_Town_Mafia), although apparently that setup is Nightless (so I must have misremembered about the Jester-Mafia having a Nightkill).
"Vote For Town Mafia" has generally been called "Reverse Mafia" as well, although that name has also been used for an unrelated setup (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Reverse_Mafia) on the Mafiascum wiki. I'll use "Reverse Mafia" from now on to describe this particular setup (because it's less of a mouthful to say, and because it's the term used more often for this setup).
EDIT 2: Huh. Bay12Games has actually hosted "Reverse Mafia" before (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161581.0), and it seems from my brief reading of the topic that Mafia had a nightkill. And TotalWar had some discussion about a "Reverse Mafia" setup (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/entry.php/54-How-to-win-a-reverse-mafia) where the mafia had a nightkill as well and had to use it.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 01, 2021, 07:25:00 pm
What I wonder is how it would be possible to design an improved version of it where the player participation doesn't make it possible to reverse-engineer the roles from information that you shouldn't really have. I for one would love to play a round of a version of this.
Post by: webadict on February 01, 2021, 10:26:30 pm
Just one step towards automating moderation, but I hope it becomes a popular small game format.
Post by: Tomasque on February 04, 2021, 08:43:11 pm
One setup I've been pondering is something Tomasque ran a while ago - Exquisite Cops and Robbers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163035.0). Sadly it didn't run for long, but I love the concept. The players all contribute pieces of roles which are developed step by step into a final product.
What I wonder is how it would be possible to design an improved version of it where the player participation doesn't make it possible to reverse-engineer the roles from information that you shouldn't really have. I for one would love to play a round of a version of this.
I've thought about this a little bit since then, and I came up with a solution.
-snip-
I've removed this post temporarily, since I'm running the game right now. If you've already seen it, don't worry. You can still play.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 04, 2021, 09:30:33 pm
If you don't run that, I probably will, to be honest. (But I'd love playing it more than running it, heheh.)
Post by: Tomasque on February 04, 2021, 09:53:59 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 05, 2021, 01:24:51 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 05, 2021, 07:55:30 pm
1 One-Shot Daykilling Mafioso
3 Vanilla Townies
1 Secret-Voteless Vengekilling Jester
The Mafioso must daykill on the third lowercase-day of the five-day long game. They can queue the kill up in advance if they need to. Mafioso automatically wins after a town lynch.
The Jester's vote secretly does not count, and if they are daykilled, they can choose a player to kill, themselves. If they kill the mafia player, their win condition is still fulfilled. When the Jester wins, everyone else still loses.
The townies win if the mafioso is lynched.
This seems a bit more balanced, I think.
Since the jester can win by vengekilling the mafioso, they have an incentive to scumhunt, and since the mafioso might lose if they daykill the jester, they have an incentive to hunt as well, forcing both the non-town players to invest themselves more into the game.
It still seems flawed, though. Jokes on me for trying to make a jester work in a balanced and fun way.
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 05, 2021, 08:23:04 pm
Jester: 20%
Town: 20%
Mafia: 60%
In practice the town win is even more vanishingly unlikely because the voteless jester forces the whole town to vote mafioso for the win.
Post-daykill/on-daykill win percentages:
Jester: 25%
Town: 25%
Mafia: 50%
Again these winrates don't represent the likely in-reality town winrate: the town are forced to find each other and both vote the mafia in order to win, any other scenario results in a town loss due to the voteless jester and the mafia (obviously) never voting themselves.
Best case scenario for the town is for the mafia to kill the jester and the jester to kill a townie, which gives the town a 33% chance to win from a pure statistical standpoint.
Edit: Sorry for being a killjoy with all the math.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 05, 2021, 09:22:06 pm
This at least looks viable to run, though still not ideal.
Post by: Tomasque on February 06, 2021, 03:30:38 am
Does that setup have a flexible player count?
I think I'll have it be 6-player, night-start (with no kills on the first night). Keeps it nice and short, and makes it very likely to get out of sign-ups. If it goes well I can always run it with more people.
Early (pre-daykill) hammer win percentages: unchanged
Jester: 20%
Town: 20%
Mafia: 60%
In practice the town win is even more vanishingly unlikely because the voteless jester forces the whole town to vote mafioso for the win.
Post-daykill/on-daykill win percentages:
Jester: 25%
Town: 25%
Mafia: 50%
Again these winrates don't represent the likely in-reality town winrate: the town are forced to find each other and both vote the mafia in order to win, any other scenario results in a town loss due to the voteless jester and the mafia (obviously) never voting themselves.
Best case scenario for the town is for the mafia to kill the jester and the jester to kill a townie, which gives the town a 33% chance to win from a pure statistical standpoint.
Edit: Sorry for being a killjoy with all the math.
How did you calculate that?
Post by: ToonyMan on February 11, 2021, 12:55:22 am
Card Mafia
General Rules:
Don't quote my PMs anywhere unless I said it in the main thread.
Don't quote other player's PMs anywhere unless you're talking to them via PMs.
You can PM other players, but include me.
You can "vote" in the thread, but only your vote sent to me via PM during the Vote Phase counts.
Card Info:
There can only be one card at one time, the only exception is the Commoner card.
Every card is guaranteed to appear each Day in the vanilla YTTD version.
Vanilla Your Turn To Die (YTTD) Cards:
Keymaster - everyone loses if they are executed.
Sage - knows who the Keymaster is.
Sacrifice - wins if they receive the most votes, dies and loses otherwise, has two votes. Chooses one other player to win with if they win.
Commoner - no ability.
Spoiler: Wacky Original Cards I'm leaving out for now (click to show/hide)
Game Flow
Handout Phase (Night 0)
Cards are assigned randomly to players.
Discussion/Trade Phase (Day 1, 48 hours)
Players discuss and secretly trade cards.
Once per game, each player is allowed to trade their card with another player. The player they trade with won't know who traded with them, but they'll learn what their new card is. The player that initiated the trade will also learn of the new card they received. The current Sage will know who the current Keymaster is, if the Keymaster changes they will know as long as they are the Sage.
Trades are processed in the order they are received via PM. However, the mod may purposely delay these trades to obfuscate trade timings to prevent metagaming. The order received will still stay true regardless. The mod will try to be active so that a big chain doesn't happen, unless trade actions are all submitted at the deadline. This is a valid strategy for players.
In the very unlikely event that two PMs are sent at the exact same time then the mod will flip a coin. The player whose trade didn't go through will be told how unlikely this is and how unlucky they are. They can try trading again at least.
Discussion/Pre-Vote Phase (Day 1, 24 hours)
During the last 24 hours of Day 1 no more trades will be accepted.
Players discuss who they are going to vote and why.
Vote Phase (Day 1, 24 hours)
The thread is locked.
Players PM the mod who they want to vote.
Self-votes are allowed.
Votes are anonymous.
In the event of a tie:
Discussion/Pre-Vote Phase 2 (Day 1, 24 hours)
If there is a tie, then a Phase 2 Discussin/Pre-Vote will be held for 24 hours.
Only the players that are tied with the most amount of votes will be allowed to be voted. They cannot vote anymore, but they are allowed to talk during the discussion.
The remaining players that are not eligible to be executed will discuss who they are going to vote.
Vote Phase 2 (Day 1, 24 hours)
Same as the first Vote Phase. If there's another tie this continues until there are no more ties.
Execution Phase (End of Day 1)
The player with the most votes is executed unless they are the Sacrifice. The game is over if the Sacrifice is executed. The Sacrifice wins and chooses another player that wins with them. The game is also over if the Keymaster is executed. Everybody loses if the Keymaster dies.
If the Sage or a Commoner is executed then the game continues. The executed player loses. The Sacrifice dies and loses.
Handout Phase 2 (Night 1)
New cards are assigned randomly to the remaining players.
These phases continue until the Sacrifice or Keymaster is executed or there are less than 5 players during the Night in which case the 3-4 surviving players win.
So basically the Sacrifice is allowed to decide if they want to hold onto the card and try to win that day or if they're able to they can trade it to somebody else and try to survive the game. The Sacrifice can also try to win over another player via PMs to join their side and vote them. If the Sacrifice loses enough then the remaining surviving players will win.
I think the secret day trade system will add a lot to this game. You can only trade once, so you have to decide whether you really want to use it today or save it for a possible tomorrow.
Post by: Skynet on February 11, 2021, 06:56:29 am
That's an interesting dynamic. I'm guessing mass-claims would still occur in the Discussion/Pre-Vote Phase though, as roles are locked afterwards.
I think this game might work if it doesn't drag on for too long. Which means I think there should be only a few players...like 5. 1 Keymaster, 1 Sage, 1 Sacrifice, and 2 Commoners. Someone has to be executed for the rest of the Town to win...but who gets to be that unlucky person?
Post by: ToonyMan on February 11, 2021, 08:13:25 am
Mass-claims are discouraged in the Discussion/Trade Phase because if you do claim, "Oh I'm the Keymaster, so please don't execute me or everyone loses - also, since no one will execute me, all I have to do is watch out for the Sacrifice victory and I'm golden". All that's going to happen is that some Commoner is going to do a force-trade, become the new Keymaster, and render you disposable. Unless you're intentionally trying to get someone to force-trade you because you actually have a role you don't want (like the Sacrifice).Yep. Claiming during the Trade Phase is a good way to lose (or keep) your card.
That's an interesting dynamic. I'm guessing mass-claims would still occur in the Discussion/Pre-Vote Phase though, as roles are locked afterwards.
I want to have at least some of the day to have discussion with locked in roles. It might just turn into everyone claiming they're the Keymaster or Sage or Sacrifice but that's fine.
I think this game might work if it doesn't drag on for too long. Which means I think there should be only a few players...like 5. 1 Keymaster, 1 Sage, 1 Sacrifice, and 2 Commoners. Someone has to be executed for the rest of the Town to win...but who gets to be that unlucky person?A one day version with only 5 or 6 players could work. The Sacrifice having two votes becomes more and more powerful so at that point they'd have the highest chance to win maybe. Otherwise an ideal setup would be 9 to 11 players which would last 3 or 4 days.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 11, 2021, 06:01:58 pm
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 12, 2021, 05:10:54 am
Anyone mind helping me analyze a 5-player mini-bastard setup? I've been inspired to run a quick but messy mini-game.I can check it, sure. PM me.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 19, 2021, 02:48:23 pm
I have something with a different premise in mind at the moment.
Though it'll have to be put on the queue, and preferably wait until after some less complex games.
Flashback Mafia is a game where you can choose any role from a previous game of mafia on this subform to take for yourself, though I'd reserve the right to tweak and adjust and reformat the role as needed to make the game work acceptably.
There should probably be at least some additional caveats, though. Any thoughts?
(The idea is that if you had a cool role but died early or the game ended early, or if someone else had a role you'd like to try, you can snatch it for this game, though the end result will inevitably be a mess)
Post by: webadict on February 19, 2021, 02:53:17 pm
Mmm, maybe later.Aren't there, like, super broken roles in some games?
I have something with a different premise in mind at the moment.
Though it'll have to be put on the queue, and preferably wait until after some less complex games.
Flashback Mafia is a game where you can choose any role from a previous game of mafia on this subform to take for yourself, though I'd reserve the right to tweak and adjust and reformat the role as needed to make the game work acceptably.
There should probably be at least some additional caveats, though. Any thoughts?
(The idea is that if you had a cool role but died early or the game ended early, or if someone else had a role you'd like to try, you can snatch it for this game, though the end result will inevitably be a mess)
Post by: TricMagic on February 19, 2021, 03:08:01 pm
Post by: Tomasque on February 19, 2021, 03:39:24 pm
Mmm, maybe later.
I have something with a different premise in mind at the moment.
Though it'll have to be put on the queue, and preferably wait until after some less complex games.
Flashback Mafia is a game where you can choose any role from a previous game of mafia on this subform to take for yourself, though I'd reserve the right to tweak and adjust and reformat the role as needed to make the game work acceptably.
There should probably be at least some additional caveats, though. Any thoughts?
(The idea is that if you had a cool role but died early or the game ended early, or if someone else had a role you'd like to try, you can snatch it for this game, though the end result will inevitably be a mess)
The player that sends the most overpowered role is given a role of the GM's choice instead. Players will self-regulate, and you'll have complete control over 1 role, so you'll be able to inject a little balance into the setup. Thoughts?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 19, 2021, 05:43:51 pm
The player that sends the most overpowered role is given a role of the GM's choice instead. Players will self-regulate, and you'll have complete control over 1 role, so you'll be able to inject a little balance into the setup. Thoughts?That is an excellent behavioral incentive.
Post by: webadict on February 19, 2021, 06:16:05 pm
Yeah, there's going to be some issues with balance. It'd be interesting, though.Well, as that's a more libertarian method of regulating, that only works if all players have equal knowledge of both all roles and all chosen roles. Far more likely, it'll created a flawed and unbalanced ecosystem, as the only judge for true fairness there is what has been deemed appropriate by the moderator, and that can only be assessed after all roles have been added. I expect you'll see more than 1 blatantly overpowered role, and that's why it won't work.The player that sends the most overpowered role is given a role of the GM's choice instead. Players will self-regulate, and you'll have complete control over 1 role, so you'll be able to inject a little balance into the setup. Thoughts?That is an excellent behavioral incentive.
Instead, a better idea would be to powerscale as necessary, since that allows for people to pick horribly bad roles and have them scaled up OR horribly good roles and have them scaled down. Leveling the playing field is going to create a better game than having the players self-regulate.
Post by: Tomasque on February 20, 2021, 02:07:14 am
Post by: ToonyMan on February 21, 2021, 01:24:08 am
Spoiler: Old Info (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: OP post (WIP) (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Changelog (click to show/hide)
Post by: Superdorf on February 23, 2021, 03:51:23 pm
Post by: Skynet on February 23, 2021, 09:39:10 pm
Spoiler: Raging Loop Feedback, to ToonyMan (click to show/hide)
---
Spoiler: Proposed Setup for Skynet's Seduction 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on March 07, 2021, 12:07:08 pm
Here's an idea I had based on the novel, not the film:
I Am Legend Mafia
Most of the players are vampires, except that there are a few fake vampire hiding in the midst. Every day when they all go to sleep, these humans go in and kill stake them in their sleep. At night the vampires vote who to exile.
- Day phase is for sleeping, night phase is for speaking (i.e. the names are swapped around)
- Normal balance of scum and town depending on number of players
- There are as many houses as there are players
- Each player has a house in the settlement: to kill, a human has to go to one of these houses: they kill all vampires in a house they visit
- At the start of each day, players can decide to sleep in their own house, or any other house
- Players are informed if they see another player sleeping in the same house as them
- Only one human kills during the day, the others sleep. No individual human can kill two night in a row (they need their rest)
- Players are allowed to PM each other
- At the start of each night, which house a player was killed in is revealed; players cannot sleep in a house where there was previously a slaying
Post by: Skynet on March 08, 2021, 01:37:26 pm
If the humans deviate from the plan by visiting a different house, 2 Vampires die, and if they stay in their own house and do the kill, only 1 Vampire will die, so they are incentivized to just leave to another house and get the multiple kill. Especially since no matter what the Humans will do, they will get caught.
This means it should be easy for Town to identify who did the Human-Kill. This might be balanced by the fact that 2 Townies will have to die just to confirm one Human. So each Human can be seen as disposable asset, able to take out people before getting exposed and promptly exiled. Figuring out the exact number of Humans versus Vampires would be key to balancing the setup - a single day/night cycle would mean 3 players are killed/exiled, and though Townies may quickly find out who are the Humans, they will wind up being quickly outnumbered.
Post by: notquitethere on March 08, 2021, 04:09:58 pm
But you're right, we'd want to throw a spanner of two more into these sort of game breaking stats. There was an idea I was playing with for an additional rule:
Exhaustion: after sharing a house with others, vampires fall asleep in their houses Exhausted the following Day; after performing a kill a human is similarly Exhausted the next Day. While Exhausted, a player cannot leave their home and they don't notice the comings and goings of others.
So everyone could stay in rooms the first day, but the next day the humans are going to be awake to kill and the poor vamps won't see anything coming. So the players might take it in shifts... can the town still game that? The first killer wouldn't show up to their confirmation group... but then they would be able to claim that the other person hadn't shown up either. So you'd get a battle of claims, it wouldn't be a sure thing either way.
Post by: notquitethere on March 10, 2021, 10:06:58 am
- Players get to pick their own roles, playing mafia their way
- Players can choose new abilities dynamically throughout the game to counter emerging threats
- Every ability should have a set of counters such that the game cannot be broken with a mass claim or co-ordination early on
#3 has been a bit shaky, especially in the last game. Also as I add more choices, the range of possible complications or runaway successes only grows. So I've developed a new variant on the idea Choose-Your-Own-Mafia: Auction Edition.
Spoiler: CYOM Auction Edition (click to show/hide)
Here's the TL;DR:
- Players create Agents, who each have a Profession (which can give an ability like Track, Redirect etc.), and a Costume (which protects against different powers).
- Players then bid on these Agents with gold earned each day.
- If you have no Agents at the end of two nights running, you are exiled from the game, so winning some bids is essential.
- The mafiakill is designed to inhibit claims and co-ordination, as they can kill the owner or creator of any Agent with it.
I've tried to make a lot of possible winning schemes but with all of them counterable. Let me know if you think you have a gamebreaking strategy. I have considered running it with two mafia teams as that's often fun.
Post by: Caz on March 12, 2021, 02:09:37 pm
The only role I can think that does this so far is the cult conversion, right?
Post by: Mephansteras on March 12, 2021, 02:38:55 pm
But it's not something I've tried yet beyond conversions, which are a bit different in that it's not the set-up hiding the alignment but more player driven.
Post by: ToonyMan on March 12, 2021, 02:45:15 pm
I would consider passive alignment changes like this pretty bastard-y though.
Post by: webadict on March 12, 2021, 02:58:58 pm
I've seen a mafia game where a mafia-ally player is told they're town before the game starts, but learns their true alignment during N1.That's because it is bastardy. Anytime the moderator lies to you through non-mechanically-induced methods would be at least semi-bastard. It's actually debatable if Millers or Framers count as bastard mechanics in some places, since it does create a lie, but they are created by game mechanics, so, eh?
I would consider passive alignment changes like this pretty bastard-y though.
I'd say self-alignment switching is a harder mechanic to balance because you will probably see a Townie jump ship if the Town is losing.
I have seen the Amnesiac role, which has a chance to make you non-Town, but I still think it's semi-bastard.
Post by: ToonyMan on March 12, 2021, 03:16:20 pm
For example, an amnesiac cop who thinks they're a vanilla townie until a specific day or night.
We should have a game where most players are amnesiac power roles and there's a couple psychiatrists that can "cure" them at night.
Post by: notquitethere on March 12, 2021, 04:01:37 pm
We should have a game where most players are amnesiac power roles and there's a couple psychiatrists that can "cure" them at night.You could combine the ideas and have one player be a repressed serial killer who remembers their evil alignment when "cured".
Post by: TricMagic on March 12, 2021, 04:02:57 pm
Post by: Vector on March 12, 2021, 07:04:44 pm
We should have a game where most players are amnesiac power roles and there's a couple psychiatrists that can "cure" them at night.You could combine the ideas and have one player be a repressed serial killer who remembers their evil alignment when "cured".
This is interesting, but curing players will have a random effect because no one knows what the hidden aspect is. So this unlocking of power roles will be totally decoupled from the day game.
Post by: Nirur Torir on March 12, 2021, 07:37:39 pm
Repressed memories, or fake memories?We should have a game where most players are amnesiac power roles and there's a couple psychiatrists that can "cure" them at night.You could combine the ideas and have one player be a repressed serial killer who remembers their evil alignment when "cured".
Go full ham and add a scum ally therapist who creates the scum team one night at a time, starting N0.
Post by: Vector on March 12, 2021, 07:46:33 pm
That could be kind of fun. But really frigging hard to balance. Maybe every therapist gets a maximum of 2 activations, or whatever.
Post by: Nirur Torir on March 12, 2021, 08:04:36 pm
The balance might be too lopsided though. Either they get to create a perfect team from picking at the towncore and best players, or they get killed early and leave an understaffed scum team.
Post by: Vector on March 12, 2021, 08:21:57 pm
Post by: webadict on March 12, 2021, 09:50:43 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on March 12, 2021, 11:01:19 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on March 12, 2021, 11:09:34 pm
I've been pondering ways to make cults better. One-shots aren't too bad, but I'd like to find a way to make other types a bit less snowbally. Maybe a Mark one night and convert the next would help? It'd dramatically reduce the number of converts they get a day.A full cult team that needs to target a player twice in a row to convert them? Would that player be aware the cult is trying to convert them the first night?
Post by: webadict on March 12, 2021, 11:19:06 pm
I've been pondering ways to make cults better. One-shots aren't too bad, but I'd like to find a way to make other types a bit less snowbally. Maybe a Mark one night and convert the next would help? It'd dramatically reduce the number of converts they get a day.Cults have several issues that can't be fixed easily. Traditional Cults are balanced by having an extremely weak early game. Typically, Cults start with one Cult Leader. These Cult Leaders can be nerfed by causing the deaths of all Cultists when they die, or by reducing the number of conversions available. Additionally, these Cultists are typically reduced to vanilla roles. The biggest issue with a Cult is that they are necessarily twice as powerful as the Mafia, because they basically get a doublekill each Night, removing a Town player AND gaining a Cult member. So, rule of thumb, any game where a doublekill Mafia is balanced, a Cult is balanced.
I have seen Death Cults where the Cult Leaders can convert through their own death. Usually this is a Serial Killer subtype, but the Cult Leader dies and converts a new Cult Leader, and the cycle continues until the Cult Leader dies. It's fairly balanced, but it makes the game a bit more tedious.
Post by: Skynet on March 13, 2021, 02:03:41 am
In other words, Cultists (individuals converted by the Cult Leader) count as being Cult for the purposes of the Cult Leader winning, but the Cultists don't win with the Cult Leader (and are thus anti-Cult). Obviously, this means the Cultists don't know who the Cult Leader is, and there is no Cult quicktopic as well (because then Cultists would use this quicktopic to coordinate against their Cult Leader).
Obviously, Cultists may decide to roleclaim upon learning of their role, thereby ruling themselves out as the Cult Leader. Which may mean the Cult Leader may also claim to be a Cultist as well, and hopefully stay under the radar of the Town...
Post by: Vector on March 13, 2021, 02:20:18 am
Post by: Skynet on March 13, 2021, 11:07:28 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 13, 2021, 10:44:14 pm
That way the town gets double the information to balance what webadict pointed out, that the cult effectively has a double kill. The town could use the public inspect to confirm their town core, or use it offensively to find cultists, and then the lynch serves the same purpose it normally does.
Maybe the public inspect and the lynch could be used in the same phase, or maybe separate phases. Maybe the inspect first, maybe the lynch first. Doesn't need to be a public inspect, could be just another lynch, maybe a public roleblock, etc.
I've been pondering ways to make cults better. One-shots aren't too bad, but I'd like to find a way to make other types a bit less snowbally. Maybe a Mark one night and convert the next would help? It'd dramatically reduce the number of converts they get a day.
I'm assuming this would be in a Supernatural context where you would want to obscure the nature of the scumteam and wouldn't necessarily want to fiddle with too many of the normal mafia mechanics. That limits things to team and role balancing which sort of works but has historically made for pretty swingy games.
Post by: webadict on March 14, 2021, 06:44:49 am
I think it would be an interesting game where you can Inspect someone publicly, then choose to Roleblock (maybe Jailkeep would be a better flavor fit here) someone publicly, and then Eliminate someone all publicly. There are upsides on why a Cult works well in that mode:
Mafia teams rely on the removal of information to succeed, but Cults already have that factor baked in. They make information no longer trustable after a Day, so the public information can't be confirmed the Day after. Likewise, the Roleblock isn't confirmable in a Cult game because there is no immediate flip like with Mafiakills.
I actually see that as a very doable gametype, especially if everyone is a Vanilla Townie except the Cult Leader. If you want options for different player sizes, remove the Inspect and Roleblock on the first Day (or allow a Night 0 convert).
For flavor, just imagine a quarantine zone in some big laboratory with fancy equipment that you can all use.
It's definirely a viable game mode.
Post by: TolyK on March 19, 2021, 12:13:37 pm
Spoiler: Automatic Removal (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Discussion & Trial (click to show/hide)
I think there's a lot of idea space here...
Post by: Vector on March 19, 2021, 04:03:21 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 19, 2021, 05:15:10 pm
Post by: TolyK on March 21, 2021, 03:06:27 pm
Post by: webadict on March 21, 2021, 03:12:21 pm
After I move (probably in ~2 weeks) I fully intend to run a Bay12 forum mafia game using the engine & bot Wuba and I are developing. ;DI've done like zero work on that bot. It's pretty much been all TolyK.
Post by: TolyK on March 24, 2021, 05:56:36 am
Also, reading through the initial posts of Magic Mafia MM, I actually got an idea from Jim.
Most mafia games have a "cold start", with very little public information on people.
Usually this is resolved by RVS, but that's not usually very engaging.
To prevent this, it might be cool to have some public, player-specific information in the day open that can lead to lines of inquiry. This would be baked into each (custom) role, or only a subset of roles, but would probably need to have some elements of truth for it to actually start meaningful discussion.
A great example from memory was the "Mein Kampf" game, where the flavor gave a really good starting point (though iirc there was an RVS anyways). "Iron Diadem" was also flavor-heavy and started well. I think that it's easier to give "flavor hints" in flavorful games, but I'm interested in how to do it "fairly" in non-flavorful games as well.
Post by: Vector on March 24, 2021, 07:50:35 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 05, 2021, 08:24:23 pm
1: People are a lot more willing to accept random bullshit in a BYOR game. Obviously if there's too much, it won't be well received anyways, but by signing up for a BYOR you're signing up to a more flexible game than most. You could even say the random bullshit is part of the appeal of the BYOR genre.
2: Checks and balances and role weights are important. There are no vanilla roles - everyone has their own powers, ideally with a strong degree of uniqueness. But you have to prepare for each single player's 'special thing' by including multiple counterbalances for that 'special thing'.
3: Every player should have something special or unique - or occasionally shared in a manner that makes the sharing feel special. (Like for example a mason group.) The specialness shouldn't be able to dominate the whole game - at least, not by itself - but it should give the player a sense of 'this is awesome' attached.
4: Aside from the checks and balances thing, positive interactions should exist as well, or at least be possible. It's entirely okay if you don't predict everything that might come from an ability, okay for you to laugh along with the players when an infinite action loop accidentally shows up... but that sort of thing being possible also helps makes BYORs feel special. The intersection of the specialness of two players is allowed to be game-breaking if it's unlikely to happen. When or if it does happen, it'll be amusing for everyone.
5: It's perfectly fine to get creative in role name interpretation, especially if it feels like the player is trying to force a specific result (like with a Shakeragian role).
6: Third parties are very disadvantaged unless they either create a team for themselves (cult for example) or attach to an already existing team (mafia-ally for example). To compensate for this, third parties should be given just a bit more power or security.
7: The more work you give to yourself, the more bloated the game gets, the more likely things are to just... go downhill. Be careful with randomness, meta-abilities (such an ability that improves other abilities arbitrarily), day powers (you can mitigate this by having a specific time of day you evaluate day abilities), and so on. If you do include any of these bloating elements, don't use them pointlessly - use them as part of a player's special element, or as 'spice' in moderation.
8: In addition to individual checks and balances, you should also consider whole groups - and sometimes even the composition of those groups. Based on what I read in the aftermath of Mostly Vanilla Mafia 1, a third mafia member instead of a mafia-ally would have been reasonable, for example, and helped stop the immense town-sided swing that occurred in that game.
9: The game should ideally be just as fun for you to run as a mod as the fun the players will have. Your own well-being as the runner of the game matters too.
10: Double or even triple-check your action resolution docs. If you own up to your mistakes you'll probably be forgiven, but better to avoid making them in the first place.
With all this laid out? Now I feel ready to run FBYOR5, once it's my turn.
Post by: webadict on April 05, 2021, 09:34:44 pm
2: Yes. Having 2 or 3 counters or checks on a role is important. If those counters die, then that's just how the dice roll.
3: Not necessarily. I think sometimes uniqueness is good, but you should consider forsaking uniqueness for fun.
4: Yes. For the most part, if something bad happens, try to fix it however you can.
5: Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, you have to know your crowd.
6: I think something like a Kill-less Assassin would make for a good third party, since they can win early. Third parties should be used sparingly, or when you need 5 SKs.
7: True. In fact, I'd say that if you use a Day action, make it a one-shot, or kill the player when they use it.
8: Yes, group balance is good, but consider that the Mafia, on average, should likely be more powerful than the average Town player, but as a group, they should be slightly less powerful.
9: There is no preparations that can make it easier to run a game.
10: I suggest using a spreadsheet. Since I use priorities, I can sort my actions after I write them out for each player.
Post by: Toaster on April 06, 2021, 12:11:17 am
Post by: TricMagic on April 06, 2021, 07:37:58 am
Post by: EuchreJack on April 14, 2021, 12:12:12 am
Speaking on the theory of mod "fairness", I was also thinking of a player role where one player would be told all the rules and current roles in play honestly and clearly by the mod in a game where everyone else is in the dark about such things. And updated as the mod changes those things. That role is the only role that player gets. Not sure on the ideal name for that role. Seer? Bastard Mod's Best Friend? Cthulhu?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 14, 2021, 12:49:16 am
Suppose you're working with a 9 player game and 1 optional cult leader. But the townies know if they don't agree to change role, the cult leader will just be rooted out and killed eventually.
You can't just choose not to be killed, or not to be role blocked, or so on. Conversion should be the same way. Of course cults need balancing, but you can do that in a number of other different ways.
As for the hypothetical 'super-observer'? How does that player win? How do you make the game challenging for them when they know everything?
Mafia is a game about informed minorities and uninformed majorities. But that doesn't mean the informed minority should get to know everything. There's always the question of 'what do the town power roles do'?
So the question is, even in a bastard game, how much information should the informed role receive? How do you balance that? How do you challenge them? What secrets do the uninformed players get to keep?
Or. Just in general. This is a question that any role designer should always ask themselves - what is the consequence of using a given role idea?
Post by: EuchreJack on April 14, 2021, 01:21:17 am
As for the hypothetical 'super-observer'? How does that player win? How do you make the game challenging for them when they know everything?
I was thinking the role would be like that of a lunatic that knows the world is wrong/isn't real, but can't convince anyone of it in flavor. And they would otherwise be vanilla town. And they wouldn't know everything, I was a bit unclear on that point. They would instead know the correct and changing rules of the game, and nothing about the players themselves. They know exactly how many mafia/town/etc are in the game, how many roles are in play, and what those roles do, but not who has them. It's a clear check on the bastard mod, as it adds some accountability. An attempt to rehabilitate otherwise bastard ideas.
Speaking of Cult balance in the other direction, maybe one player should have a role where they can find out how many cultists are in the game.
To elaborate further on my hypothetical cult with voluntary recruitment, they also can win with town if town votes to coexist. Yet there is a third faction the inquisition that has the win condition of killing all cult, with the additional requirement of killing all town if town votes to coexist with cult. A medieval witch hunter game. The witches don't have to be anti-town, although they have a night kill. They recruit by tagging town as witch initiates. Witch initiates can chose to either join the witches or remain town. But every turn they remain witch initiates, they'll show as team witch when inquisition investigates them.
3 witches, 2 inquisition, unknown town. Witches recruit or kill, but not both on any given turn. Both inquisition cops, limited number of day kills. Inquisition switches to night kills (one per night) if town votes to accept the witches.
Still work in progress, plenty of time since there seems to be room in the queue.
Post by: Tomasque on April 14, 2021, 03:49:17 am
As for the hypothetical 'super-observer'? How does that player win? How do you make the game challenging for them when they know everything?
A little lightbulb went on in my head.
The super-observer is a third-party role with otherwise no other abilities. Their goal is either "stay alive and get everyone else to kill each other off" or "make sure <some specific combination of things> happens by the end of the game."
Flavorwise, they're some kind of evil mastermind. What do you think?
Post by: EuchreJack on April 14, 2021, 04:50:47 am
As for the hypothetical 'super-observer'? How does that player win? How do you make the game challenging for them when they know everything?
A little lightbulb went on in my head.
The super-observer is a third-party role with otherwise no other abilities. Their goal is either "stay alive and get everyone else to kill each other off" or "make sure <some specific combination of things> happens by the end of the game."
Flavorwise, they're some kind of evil mastermind. What do you think?
I really like the idea of their win goal being some specific combination of things.
Post by: Jim Groovester on May 20, 2021, 09:32:19 pm
Spoiler: Original flavor cult setup (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Original flavor cult setup + webadict & Mephansteras feedback (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Micro game cult setup (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Delayed Night Resolution Cult Setup (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Delayed Night Resolution Mafia Setup (click to show/hide)
I'm leaning towards the last setup since it's novel and feels like it would be more fun and balanceable than a cult setup.
I have various opinions about the other setups, but there's a reason why I have generated several.
Post by: Toaster on May 20, 2021, 10:08:38 pm
1 would need some rules to handle cult targeting the enemy cult.
2... do you mean Deprogrammer (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Deprogrammer) instead of Psychiatrist? Would a deprogrammed townie leave the game? Is the public inspect alignment only or would it differentiate leader vs recruit?
3 is interesting. Lynches eliminate Cult Allies, I assume?
For 4, does the lynch or convert happen first?
4 and 5, I like the vote-driven town ability usage, and pinning it to the presence of the living role.
5, how would the Redirector work? If Redirector acts to direct A to B and A is vote-inspected, actually the results of B are announced? Is it known that the redirect happened? Are the inspect results announced in public or sent to the relevant townie?
Post by: Jim Groovester on May 20, 2021, 10:32:34 pm
1 would need some rules to handle cult targeting the enemy cult.
The two cult leaders would be on the same team. There would still only be one conversion each night.
The intent was to make the game less swingy by giving the cult an extra leader so that the cult would be more durable to a potential day 1 town stomp, and also make a scum team instead of solo scum since I think that's an important part of making mafia games playable.
2... do you mean Deprogrammer (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Deprogrammer) instead of Psychiatrist? Would a deprogrammed townie leave the game? Is the public inspect alignment only or would it differentiate leader vs recruit?
Psychiatrist = conversion protection
webadict's feedback from setup 1 suggested this so the inspect would be alignment + role.
3 is interesting. Lynches eliminate Cult Allies, I assume?
Correct.
For 4, does the lynch or convert happen first?
Hurrrarrrrrummmmmmmmmmmmmm my thinking was resolving everything as simultaneously as possible unless there was some kind of obvious precedence that needed to happen, so the convert would happen first. I'll have to think about that one and whether it makes sense and isn't a stupid freebie to the Cult.
5, how would the Redirector work? If Redirector acts to direct A to B and A is vote-inspected, actually the results of B are announced? Is it known that the redirect happened? Are the inspect results announced in public or sent to the relevant townie?
My thinking is:
A is cop
players vote inspect B
Mafia redirects A to C
End of day, B has their alignment publicly announced, but the alignment announced is C's
The kill would be known (of course) but the redirection would not be known.
Post by: prefuzek on May 24, 2021, 11:50:59 am
Roles:
- 2 Humans - win when all robots are lynched
- 3-5 Robots - win when one human is dead, share a scumchat
Nightless, one vote to lynch, but robots may not vote for humans. If 72 hours pass without a lynch, the robots win. Essentially, the robots need to convince one human to lynch the other, while humans need to kill all the robots.
This setup works well in person, but humans usually win since knowing that the robots can't lynch humans is very helpful for scumhunting. I think it might be more balanced on forums when the robots have a scumchat - coordinating buses is super important for good robot play.
Post by: Tomasque on May 25, 2021, 09:55:08 am
U, Robot - a nightless setup for 5-7 players with an informed majority of scum.
Roles:
- 2 Humans - win when all robots are lynched
- 3-5 Robots - win when one human is dead, share a scumchat
Nightless, one vote to lynch, but robots may not vote for humans. If 72 hours pass without a lynch, the robots win. Essentially, the robots need to convince one human to lynch the other, while humans need to kill all the robots.
This setup works well in person, but humans usually win since knowing that the robots can't lynch humans is very helpful for scumhunting. I think it might be more balanced on forums when the robots have a scumchat - coordinating buses is super important for good robot play.
This is a cool setup. I'll have to check this one out in-person.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 25, 2021, 10:05:56 am
U, Robot - a nightless setup for 5-7 players with an informed majority of scum.
Roles:
- 2 Humans - win when all robots are lynched
- 3-5 Robots - win when one human is dead, share a scumchat
Nightless, one vote to lynch, but robots may not vote for humans. If 72 hours pass without a lynch, the robots win. Essentially, the robots need to convince one human to lynch the other, while humans need to kill all the robots.
This setup works well in person, but humans usually win since knowing that the robots can't lynch humans is very helpful for scumhunting. I think it might be more balanced on forums when the robots have a scumchat - coordinating buses is super important for good robot play.
I think it might be impossible, or close to it, with those numbers. The robots can't vote for humans, which means if a human is voted, they just vote the other human, and they're safe (ties usually mean no lynch). Then the humans go through and eliminate everyone else. You can just rotate the vote to each person, and whomever can't be voted on by the majority is human.
Post by: Tomasque on May 25, 2021, 10:17:39 am
Post by: ToonyMan on May 25, 2021, 10:18:08 am
And yes that does look fun.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 25, 2021, 10:26:24 am
It's one vote to lynch, Jack.
And yes that does look fun.
I was actually going to speculate on how long it'd take you to "solve" that setup.
Post by: prefuzek on May 25, 2021, 06:06:26 pm
I think votes in this setup are essentially dayvig killsThat's correct. Another interesting thing is that once roles are sent, the setup can be basically self-moderating: when somebody votes, any other player can immediately confirm the roleflip.
What's the process like for queuing up small filler games like this?
(I know I'm new around here, but I played some games many years ago on a different account and I've been lurking on and off since)
Post by: Mephansteras on May 25, 2021, 06:18:50 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 30, 2021, 08:23:42 am
Gender Wars: Millennial Edition
On a closed server at a prestigious Information Technology school, the topic of discussion is the upcoming candidates for Dean of the College.
These
But on this server, the women have proven to be the superior hackers, and have been able to delete one account. They seem capable of deleting one per night.
The
Power rolls as they naturally flow from the above.
I've got no experience in any of this computer stuff, but thought it an interesting premise. [insert mandatory apology here]
EDIT: Fixed those descriptors. In my mind, males who are afraid of a Woman in Power are just scared little boys, and forfeit the right to be called Men.
And since I was changing titles, I figured I'd upgrade the Women to Modern Amazons.
Post by: Vector on May 31, 2021, 03:08:14 pm
Guessing the gender rebels are SKs or survivors? Thank you for the mandatory apology.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 31, 2021, 04:55:39 pm
As my granddad used to say, "No man wants an Amazon."
Guessing the gender rebels are SKs or survivors? Thank you for the mandatory apology.
Probably survivors. SKs would be a sole hacker that wanted the server for themselves for whatever reason, likely unrelated to its original intent.
Granddad was wrong if he was referring to the modern interpretation, or perhaps right if referring to the ancient versions.
It depends on whether or not they have 2 breasts. The ancient ones didn't.
Post by: RoseHeart on June 03, 2021, 01:29:39 am
Post by: notquitethere on June 03, 2021, 05:45:12 am
Random idea: tower defence mafia...Here's how it might work: all the players are in the tower and each night they lay down defences in advance of an enemy attack phase. Some of the players are traitors working for the enemy and their goal is to leave weaknesses in the defense. Perhaps they know in advance the attack patterns of the enemy. Possibly each time enemies get through, one of the defenders dies or the health of the town decreases.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 03, 2021, 12:14:02 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 03, 2021, 12:59:32 pm
What if it was a criminal organization that was under siege by the Cops?
Post by: TolyK on June 03, 2021, 01:46:21 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 03, 2021, 01:52:00 pm
Players are a criminal gang, holding out at a a big office block after a heist, waiting for helicopter getaway to arrive. They need to hold down the tower from the cops. But there are a couple of stool pigeons or undercover cops among them that want to sabotage their defences.
Game has normal two phases: day/night. At the end of each day players vote to eliminate traitors; at night everyone uses their actions. At the end of the night, the cops raid. If any cops get in, somebody in the gang is snatched by the cops (the traitors get to pick who).
There are a number of entry ways in, some of which start blocked. At night everyone can do 1 of these actions:
- defend one of the entryways
- put up a barricade (completed at the end of the night)
Additionally, the traitors can each do one of the following:
- destroy a barricade
- learn the attack pattern for the following attack phase
- direct the cops to attack a specific entryway (this replaces one of their existing attacks at random
Cops have an attack power: if it exceeds the strength of the defenders or a wall, they break through. Different waves will focus their strength in different areas. Maybe a boss wave (?) at N3?
What can we do to make that more tower defensivey? Should town have additional roles?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 03, 2021, 02:08:27 pm
Post by: TolyK on June 03, 2021, 02:12:14 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 03, 2021, 02:18:49 pm
Spoiler: Rough Example (click to show/hide)
What else do tower defences have? Mooks, increasing waves, resource drops and upgrades? Turrets?
I've played Dead of Winter and it has a lot of overlap with mafia stuff. Bit too much dice rolling to work well on forum, but something like it could happen.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 03, 2021, 02:43:16 pm
1) Stop creeps from getting in
2) Gather information on who the Traitors are
3) Stop someone from dying
Optional things would Block potential traitors and even Kill.
Barricades are a good idea. That gives all townies something to do.
You could also have a riskier role that actively kills creeps (stronger deterrence for the next night), but if too many come in from that side they get overwhelmed and taken out.
Doc role could be handy but has to be balanced with the Doc not helping with the barricades.
So we basically have two pressures on the town: Stopping the immediate threat of the creeps and the long term threat of the Scum.
Hmm...a normal tower defense has a gradual increase of power, both on the Tower side and the Creep side. Here we have the opposite. Town will be constantly losing people, and thus have less and less ability to stop the Creeps from getting in each night. So figuring out the balance of Creep power will be important.
You also have the issue of how much information the town gets about what happened the night before. Because you don't want it to be trivial to determine who the Traitors are just by setting up a "Player A barricades slot 1. Player B barricades slot 2. Etc." and then lynching whoever didn't do what they said.
Easy solution to that is just let the players know the state in the morning of the barricades and any breaches. So a well barricaded spot may be down two levels of defense, but is that because a Traitor took one down or because the Creeps hit it hard during the night and it held?
Could be a neat role that gets to see exactly what happens to a given entrance on a night, though.
I'll keep thinking about it. But it's got good potential.
Post by: notquitethere on June 04, 2021, 06:46:28 am
To lean more into the theme, the town's capacity to defend should increase, even as their numbers decline: that way you can have ever increasing waves but still be able to fairly counter them. This could be done by upgrades: after each wave the town could have additional free actions, like additional barricades, boobytraps, extra lives etc. These could be handed out privately to players, to allow scum to lie about what they have (like if town really need more barricades down, scum could lie about having received some or act helpful as they see fit). Kind of like how cards work in Dead of Winter.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 04, 2021, 10:18:00 am
Post by: TricMagic on June 25, 2021, 09:43:31 am
Did I miss any threads..
Post by: TolyK on June 25, 2021, 09:49:09 am
Post by: Superdorf on June 25, 2021, 06:04:27 pm
Thoughts?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 25, 2021, 06:17:25 pm
Post by: TricMagic on June 27, 2021, 04:09:36 pm
Post by: TricMagic on June 30, 2021, 07:30:52 am
Post by: EuchreJack on July 08, 2021, 03:54:59 am
Standard mafia, with a twist: outsiders can join the game, while it's running. Anyone who enters becomes a new town or mafia member, based on a weighted dice roll.
Thoughts?
Oh, we already have that! They're called replacements. :P
Onto more serious matters, planning for my Island Mafia.
The theme is that a plane crashes and the players are survivors on an Island in the Ocean. Mafia are criminals waiting for someone to pick them up so they can "disappear", they have to kill the others in order to do so.
Thoughts: What is the minimum number of players to run a game? Can I run 7 instead of 9?
How many power roles can I put in?
I do NOT want any doctors/jailkeepers. Basically, nobody that can prevent another person's death.
I like the idea of 1-shot bulletproof though.
I do want a possible 1-shot vigilante
I do want a possible cop
I do want a possible tracker
I do want a possible mafia roleblocker
As for combos, thinking it should be Cop + 1-shot bulletproof/tracker OR 1-shot vigilante + tracker. Roleblocker basically used a half a mafia player. So at 9 players, I can either throw in 3 mafia or 2 mafia with roleblocker.
Thinking about Serial Killer, really unsure on balance. How to make the numbers so its a winnable alignment without being too swingy. I think the two combos above would work. Maybe keep it at 3 scum, so either 3 mafia or 2 mafia w/roleblocker + SK. I think the mafia knowing about the SK is "fair", since they're down a mafia player. Plus, this setup would allow only town to know the power roles. Town's info to slip, I guess.
Not feeling survivor, with my setting
Thinking about miller. Only if cop, lol.
Contemplated Masons (best friends from the plane), but probably wouldn't work
Post by: webadict on October 06, 2021, 11:12:45 am
YOHOS is a semi-bastard game because it contains a non-traditional method for winning and game style where the Town team attempts to escape from an Escape Room and the Mafia team attempts to stop them. It shouldn't matter about player numbers, as it will only affect what is needed to complete the game.
Also, some issues for gametypes like this are hidden mechanics, which will not be a feature of this game. All available actions will be listed, all rules will be known, and the only surprises will be those that are found, so players can choose what they wish to do. In the case two players choose the same action, the mafia will decide who succeeds.
Game actions will result in players potentially receiving items that help their chance to win or by giving them additional choices.
The winners are determined by the number of victory points at the end. Town, Mafia, and 3P win conditions will be the main source for this, but other point sources will be available throughout the game (to make you an even better winner!) Basically, score above 0 and win, score 0 or less and lose!
That's the base description: Escape Room Mafia. If you spot anything significantly confusing or broken, feel free to point it out, but my feelings so far are these:
1) One mafia claiming immediately and bullying others:
In game, there are Daily votes that result in a vote for two players - A Winner and a Loser - that can punish the Loser at the Winner's discretion. Additionally, limited communication between team members of any alignment.
2) Action availability:
If all actions are available to all players, there is less need for cooperation (as well as lying). I have considered giving actions limitations, such as tags, attributes, or stats needed to complete the action (Say, a STRONG tag, given to specific players) that could potentially be overcome by some other player choices. It allows players to be forced to work together and scum to lie about what they can and can't do.
3) How to escape:
My feeling is that this might be bested resolved by a final and single vote. Players might gain additional voting power throughout the game to assist them, but the Mafia can attempt to put themselves in a place of power, but they can also choose to consolidate their ability to vote at the end. Either choice works. This also stops unwinnable game states, since there is always technically a chance for either side.
That's my thoughts.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 01:51:28 pm
Does the mafia team intend to keep the town team captive "forever", or are they just trying to delay to a "better" time?
It seems...overly and needlessly complicated and deviant to the point either being Not-Mafia with Mafia name or Mafia in the Middle of Conversion into Something Else.
An interesting idea, but painfully half-formed.
Would it not be better to just run standard mafia with: no kill, vote into "penalty box" (can't act until out of the box), and the player gaining abilities as the game progresses to simulate the Escape Room feel without diverging into Not Mafia? Kinda like Roguelike mafia without all the killing.
Post by: webadict on October 06, 2021, 02:28:32 pm
The second point perhaps a misunderstanding of the point. It is more complicated by design on purpose because it is meant as a breath of fresh air from "normal" mafia.
It is still a social deduction game in that there is an informed minority working against an uninformed majority. That doesn't exclude it as a Mafialike.
Post by: hops on October 09, 2021, 02:11:03 am
Post by: webadict on October 09, 2021, 07:37:29 am
Post by: hops on October 09, 2021, 07:46:43 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 09, 2021, 02:23:28 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 09, 2021, 02:57:07 pm
Heh, but even more fun is True Armed Forces mafia: All townies are 1-shot bulletproof and 1-shot vigilante, whereas Mafia is 1-shot bulletproof and can shoot as much as they want.
Post by: hops on October 09, 2021, 11:00:35 pm
Though I suppose if town has identical powers it'd also be Mountainous.
Post by: webadict on October 12, 2021, 04:55:26 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 06:37:49 pm
Someone should start a small self-moderated game like Vengeful or the robot one.We could do either if 5 players are interested.
Post by: hops on October 12, 2021, 08:41:14 pm
Post by: webadict on October 12, 2021, 08:50:10 pm
Self-moderated?I have a bot that can send out roles automatically. After that, whenever a player dies, the game is updated by an applicable player.
Post by: webadict on October 14, 2021, 09:05:20 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 15, 2021, 09:20:46 am
So, uh, do we have the people necessary for a small game?How many?
Post by: webadict on October 15, 2021, 09:44:11 am
Presumably 5, but I suppose the numbers dictate the game.So, uh, do we have the people necessary for a small game?How many?
Post by: RoseHeart on February 20, 2022, 04:31:14 pm
Any advice before I start? Such as voting format, or common mafia game conventions I'd do well to take advantage of?
This is my first time hosting in the subforum.
Post by: EuchreJack on February 22, 2022, 03:47:44 pm
Like: Maybe one person is assigned a crime among all the possible ones, and the remaining players have to guess?
Or everyone is randomly assigned a crime, and a more standard mafia game occurs where everyone is playing against everyone?
Or Acquitted vs. Convicted? Everyone assigned a crime, but only one person was found GUILTY of that crime. Everyone else was accused but acquitted.
Post by: RoseHeart on February 23, 2022, 12:59:37 am
Post by: EuchreJack on February 23, 2022, 01:30:30 am
EuchreJack is the criminal and told the crime.
The remaining player ask EuchreJack questions, then vote on which of the 4 crimes were committed.
Since you have 3 other players, the majority determines the vote. All other rules can remain the same.
Game repeats until everyone gets a chance to be the criminal.
Simple?
Post by: RoseHeart on March 07, 2022, 05:57:15 am
Post by: EuchreJack on March 23, 2022, 12:33:29 pm
Patient Confidentiality
Two players in a private chat together. The killer, who doesn't want to be caught, at least not immediately, and the psychiatrist, who needs to convince the killer to turn themselves in.
A Doctor can not reveal that their patient is mentally ill UNLESS they believe their patient will ACTUALLY harm someone
So long as the psychiatrist does not believe the killer would actually kill, they remain silent
Patient has a 50/50 chance they are actually a killer
If not a killer, then they are a Disgruntled Patient that wants the psychiatrist to Rat on them so they can get the psychiatrist fired
Since it is a mini-mafia, it could probably be run concurrently or between "normal" games.
Post by: webadict on April 01, 2022, 01:42:53 pm
The biggest issue I notice is that our Day game is lacking compared to other communities. This used to be one of our biggest strengths. Another issue that people don't accurately mimic their behaviors as murderers or threatened bystanders that they would do in real life, which not only affects our Day game, but really hits our ability to out roleplay other communities, as well. This makes our meta boring and stale, and really affects the learning algorithm that Mamobo uses to slowly become sentient, so I would suggest the following:
- Games should no longer reference Players, as this subconsciously tricks our mind into thinking the game isn't real, causing us to not play to our greatest potential. Instead, it might be better to use the terms Captives, Hostages, or Sacrifices, depending on the method used to motivate your group. This will also have a secondary effect of increasing our numbers here!
- Deaths in-game should be treated as though the person had actually died. This includes grieving, holding a funeral, and, simulating a real death when you die in-game. This will give us better understanding of how both murderers and those that catch murderers, improving our Day game.
- Cops should always return innocent unless the Cop can prove their target is guilty to a new role type, the Judge. This will also require the Cop to retrieve a warrant for arrest and/or search and seizure of evidence, and failure to provide these should result in punitive actions to the Cop, including removal of the Cop's inspection power. This allows us to no longer rely on mechanical information to solve games.
- Paranormal games should no longer include Doppelgangers. Doppelgangers have their origins in German folklore, and would be better off in Supernatural. Instead, the scum team should be composed of Aliens, Psyonics, and Ghosts, randomly. Additionally, there should be around a 99% chance (mod rolls) that the deaths were actually caused by an easily exainable phenomenon, like coyotes or that time my brother shoved me into a garbage can, but not like that one specifically, one that didn't happen. This allows for an improvement to our critical thinking and logical deduction skills, the foundation of many other communities.
- Supernatural games should instead be composed solely of quotes or references from the hit television show Supernatural, as well as fan fiction involving any characters from Supernatural, Doctor Who, and Eureka. Characters from outside these shows, as well as ships I don't personally agree with should result in permanent bans.
- Games should randomly last anywhere between a few hours and decades, to better simulate real life murder cases, as well as give more time to prepare arguments and address facts.
Anyway, let me know what you think of these and maybe add some more discussion on how else we can improve as a community.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 01, 2022, 02:19:47 pm
Let us replace it with The Trial.
The person voted is Jailkeepered for several in-game days.
Then one player is The Prosecutor who must try the case, and other player is RANDOMLY ASSIGNED as the Defense Attorney.
The most trusted Townie player is elected Judge to decide the case, or the defendant can chose to have the Town (except the two individuals above) revote.
Alternatively, remove the Lynch entirely. Just give all town players a 1-shot vigilante instead. Vigilante justice needs more guns!
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 01, 2022, 05:06:50 pm
Anyway, let me know what you think of these and maybe add some more discussion on how else we can improve as a community.
I think you're on the right track with these suggestions, but I think we need to go even further. Rather than increase the fidelity of our simulated games of life and death with an uninformed majority and an informed minority playing against each other, we should instead play real games of life and death with an uninformed majority and an informed minority playing against each other.
It'll be interesting playing games where our roles are based on our real life skills, and it'll certainly change the dynamic between town and scum if the scum try to nightkill a player and the intended victim successfully fights them off. It'll also be a challenge to sustain games like this for any duration of time, but I think that's something we can work through.
Maybe in a couple months ago we could organize a Bay 12 meet up in some remote town, rent out an an entire dilapidated motel, and then play probably the most memorable game of mafia ever.
Thoughts?
Post by: notquitethere on April 01, 2022, 05:18:53 pm
Maybe in a couple months ago we could organize a Bay 12 meet up in some remote town, rent out an an entire dilapidated motel, and then play probably the most memorable game of mafia ever.I think this is a very promising idea to create truly historical games of mafia. I also think we should aim to create truly literate games of mafia. By which I mean, it is a shame that so many thousands of words are exchanged on these forums but it is all pure ephemera. I think all mafia games should be played fully in character, with an expectation of plot twists, scene setting, good quality prose. Instead of posting quick interspersed posts, each player must write a short chapter to continue the mafia narrative in any given mafianovella.
Thoughts?
Post by: Persus13 on April 01, 2022, 06:30:49 pm
I'm on board if we can get Meph to MC. Although that might mean convincing aliens to abduct Meph for Paranormal.Anyway, let me know what you think of these and maybe add some more discussion on how else we can improve as a community.
I think you're on the right track with these suggestions, but I think we need to go even further. Rather than increase the fidelity of our simulated games of life and death with an uninformed majority and an informed minority playing against each other, we should instead play real games of life and death with an uninformed majority and an informed minority playing against each other.
It'll be interesting playing games where our roles are based on our real life skills, and it'll certainly change the dynamic between town and scum if the scum try to nightkill a player and the intended victim successfully fights them off. It'll also be a challenge to sustain games like this for any duration of time, but I think that's something we can work through.
Maybe in a couple months ago we could organize a Bay 12 meet up in some remote town, rent out an an entire dilapidated motel, and then play probably the most memorable game of mafia ever.
Thoughts?
Post by: Vector on April 02, 2022, 12:56:23 am
Although that might mean convincing aliens to abduct Meph for Paranormal.
on it
Post by: Mephansteras on April 04, 2022, 11:30:11 am
Although that might mean convincing aliens to abduct Meph for Paranormal.
on it
The fact that this is the only part of this conversation not on April Fool's day is a bit concerning...
Post by: EuchreJack on April 04, 2022, 03:44:16 pm
Everyone knows illegal immigrants are a cheap source of labor...Although that might mean convincing aliens to abduct Meph for Paranormal.
on it
The fact that this is the only part of this conversation not on April Fool's day is a bit concerning...
Post by: EuchreJack on June 01, 2022, 12:09:38 am
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Astronomer (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Astronomer)
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2022, 12:59:05 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on June 01, 2022, 01:04:39 pm
Well, it's just skip next day or skip next night. There's no real agency, because the event is random...That's not what this article says. It says it's a choice.
Post by: notquitethere on June 01, 2022, 01:16:02 pm
- skip a day or night
- manipulate the threshold for hammering up or down
- control who has access to dead chat
- control who has access to the mafia chat (would have to be a mafia ability)
- control what information gets revealed on a flip
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2022, 03:35:04 pm
Ok, I completely missed that they choose whether to skip, not whether it's skipped if they correctly guess. So yeah, missed the whole point.Well, it's just skip next day or skip next night. There's no real agency, because the event is random...That's not what this article says. It says it's a choice.
I'm now imagining a setup where each player has control over some different part of the core structure of the game.This sounds like a big closed setup waiting to happen :D
- skip a day or night
- manipulate the threshold for hammering up or down
- control who has access to dead chat
- control who has access to the mafia chat (would have to be a mafia ability)
- control what information gets revealed on a flip
Post by: hops on June 22, 2022, 01:25:02 am
each day everyone publically announces how much money they're putting in the pot and everyone must call or fold and be limmed from the game, people who are limmed or killed are treated as if folding too, the pot is split between people who win the mafia and survive to the end
downside is it'd have to be played over multiple rounds when using fake money for the bets to be useful as reads
upside is with enough pressure people may fold from rounds early and therefore end the game fast, and also if people who run out of money are eliminated from the overall game then later rounds would become faster and faster
Post by: EuchreJack on June 22, 2022, 11:37:23 am
dumb concept: poker mafia
each day everyone publically announces how much money they're putting in the pot and everyone must call or fold and be limmed from the game, people who are limmed or killed are treated as if folding too, the pot is split between people who win the mafia and survive to the end
downside is it'd have to be played over multiple rounds when using fake money for the bets to be useful as reads
upside is with enough pressure people may fold from rounds early and therefore end the game fast, and also if people who run out of money are eliminated from the overall game then later rounds would become faster and faster
An interesting game, but what do the Mafia do that the Town doesn't?
Post by: Shakerag on September 07, 2022, 07:18:30 pm
Post by: hector13 on September 07, 2022, 07:19:50 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on September 07, 2022, 11:25:46 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on September 08, 2022, 08:55:58 pm
dumb concept: poker mafia
each day everyone publically announces how much money they're putting in the pot and everyone must call or fold and be limmed from the game, people who are limmed or killed are treated as if folding too, the pot is split between people who win the mafia and survive to the end
downside is it'd have to be played over multiple rounds when using fake money for the bets to be useful as reads
upside is with enough pressure people may fold from rounds early and therefore end the game fast, and also if people who run out of money are eliminated from the overall game then later rounds would become faster and faster
An interesting game, but what do the Mafia do that the Town doesn't?
Presumably, cheat.
Post by: RoseHeart on September 12, 2022, 01:00:09 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on September 12, 2022, 11:36:16 pm
Sorry I've been so unreliable when I show up here. And sorry for holding on to hangups.
No problem, you're in good company
Post by: RoseHeart on October 13, 2022, 03:06:05 pm
Post by: webadict on October 13, 2022, 03:08:42 pm
Any idea why TheBiggerFish doesn't come around anymore?Pond got too small.
Post by: hector13 on October 13, 2022, 03:51:10 pm
Post by: webadict on October 16, 2022, 05:17:29 pm
Post by: notquitethere on January 11, 2023, 01:27:12 pm
Quote
Choose-Your-Own-Mafia Five
In the tradition of Choose-Your-Own-Mafias, this is a game where you choose your role powers. It uses a different ruleset than the previous game.
This time you fill out a character sheet when you start and you will get role powers accordingly. Fill in the blanks with reference to the power list. The only limitation is you can't have a both a big power and a resistance to a big power, unless you have a big drawback.Spoiler: Character Sheet (click to show/hide)
If you end up picking an active power that no one else has, or a resistance to a power that no one else has, you won't be given your drawback.
Action reports are not usually given on success or failure. Track/watch/inspect reports are minimalist, giving only a list of targets, visitors or alignments. You won't be informed if you were blocked/redirected etc. Mafia cannot use a kill power in the same night that a team member uses the mafiakill.Spoiler: Powers (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Drawbacks (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Special (click to show/hide)
Post by: Skynet on January 13, 2023, 10:23:46 am
- The Politician
"As mafia, each night I can use my team's mafiakill or I can doublevote. I don't want other players to be able to doublevote me. I don't mind if I have no vote. Once in the game, I would like to be able to ignore my drawbacks for one phase."
The "no vote" drawback is interpreted as having one vote. Therefore, the Mafia can pretend to have possess a vote, only to activate their doublevote at LYLO. Difficulty would be pretending to have a different power other than double voting. I do need to stay alive until LYLO to try this gambit (hence why I want to be immune to doublevotes myself), but I don't need an immunity to curses, since I can easily ignore all drawbacks at the time of LYLO. Strategy fails if all alive Townies are immune to doublevotes.
- The Exploder
"As town, I would like to be able to Kill. I don't want other players to be able to Curse me. I don't mind if I'm in love with someone - I die if they die. Once in the game, I would like to be able to take my killers with me when I die."
I'm trying to maximize carnage by taking out as many people as possible. Town doesn't worry about dying, but scum does. Even the person I love can be sacrificed - I assume lovers are determined randomly, so the person I love could also be scum.
EDIT: The lover role is much less powerful than I realize. If my beloved dies, I die. But that death doesn't count as me being killed, so the Special doesn't come into effect. Also, I have to invoke the Special rather than let it passively activate, which seems to be far less useful. Here's a modified version of the above role then, to more properly maximize the death toll:
"As town, I would like to be able to Kill. I don't want other players to be able to Curse me. I don't mind if I'm in love with someone - I die if they die. Once in the game, I would like to be act during the day."
With the understanding that if I think my beloved is scum, then I'll kill the beloved before dying myself. Or kill someone else and advocate for the beloved's elimination.
Post by: notquitethere on January 16, 2023, 10:46:35 am
I think I should probably add two more abilities so that players might not all become kill immune:
Quote
Normal Power
Bless*
Big Power
Infect**
*Target cannot be blocked and heals infection
**Target dies at the end of the next day-night cycle, and anyone they target also becomes infected
The earlier CYOMs had arson, poison, and infection as alternative kill-types, but just one is probably sufficient. I wanted a smaller total number of powers, so that the drawback nullification rule might come into play: players should be encouraged to pick powers they don't think other players will have gone for.
Here are some other ideas:
- Mafia Frame Artist
"As mafia, each night I can use my team's mafiakill or I can Frame. I don't want other players to be able to Block me. I don't mind if my night target is publicly declared the next day. Once in the game I would like to be able to Hide."
Pretends to be a protector, but is actually framing the person they're 'protecting'. Once rumbled, they have the Hide and Block immunity to survive a little longer.
- Detective
"As town, I would like to be able to inspect. I don't want other players to be able to redirect me. I don't mind if I can only act on odd nights only. Once in the game I would like to be able to perform two actions in one phase."
On N1, the detective triggers their once-per-game and inspects the most suspicious players. They know they can't ordinarily be redirected, so can be pretty sure of getting accurate results (assuming millers claim miller and no one is framing their target). There's a good chance no one picks Redirect, and so they might not even have their drawback, but even if they do, it just means they've front-loaded the results for D2.
Post by: TolyK on February 14, 2023, 04:08:42 am
Here's the balancing sheet as an image:
(https://i.imgur.com/mVIcRgo.png)
And here are the roles that were sent out, more or less.
Edit: there's actually a better formatted post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145144.msg6554281#msg6554281)
Edit2: Apparently I already had posted this link in that chat. Memory is definitely not my strong suit.
Spoiler: Roles (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on April 24, 2023, 11:10:37 am
Drawing up ideas for a much stripped back version of Choose-Your-Own-Mafia. Lots of combos, but maybe not as broken as normal? Let me know how you'd break this setup:QuoteChoose-Your-Own-Mafia Five
In the tradition of Choose-Your-Own-Mafias, this is a game where you choose your role powers. It uses a different ruleset than the previous game.
This time you fill out a character sheet when you start and you will get role powers accordingly. Fill in the blanks with reference to the power list. The only limitation is you can't have a both a big power and a resistance to a big power, unless you have a big drawback.Spoiler: Character Sheet (click to show/hide)
If you end up picking an active power that no one else has, or a resistance to a power that no one else has, you won't be given your drawback.
Action reports are not usually given on success or failure. Track/watch/inspect reports are minimalist, giving only a list of targets, visitors or alignments. You won't be informed if you were blocked/redirected etc. Mafia cannot use a kill power in the same night that a team member uses the mafiakill.Spoiler: Powers (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Drawbacks (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Special (click to show/hide)
Instead of this, I've gone back to old school CYOM, with a new card-based system. Probably. Full setup and discussion here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=181614.0).
Post by: EuchreJack on April 29, 2023, 05:01:42 am
Post by: Quarque on May 22, 2023, 10:54:35 am
The premise: everybody is in the mafia, but some people are infiltrators.
An infiltrator wins if specific mafia figures on his kill list are eliminated. They do not know who the other infiltrators are, or even if there are any. Each infiltrator has a different kill list.
The mafia wins if all infiltrators are eliminated. Fundamentally, the major difference is that the "scum" have an easier win-con compared to a traditional mafia game, but no information advantage.
There is a daytime and a night time phase as usual. At daytime people vote to bury one particularly smelly fellow mafiaso in concrete.
Equipment to be used at night:
- guns, can be used to shoot another player at night
- poison [limited doses], can be used to poison another player at night
- bullet-proof vest, grants 50% fail rate when someone shoots you
- combat helmet, grants 50% fail rate when someone shoots you (100% if you also wear the vest)
- antidote [limited doses], can be used to protect yourself from poison for one night
Donating equipment to another player (if you would ever want that) is allowed.
Could add additional roles like inspection, doctors, etc, but since this deviates from tradition already my thought is to keep it otherwise simple.
I have a role scheme in mind that I think would make the game interesting, but sharing it might be too much of a spoiler.
Post by: webadict on May 22, 2023, 05:42:02 pm
It's probably a fast game, but the I assume the Body Armor and Helmer are used up when they protect, or else they just can't die (unless the Poison is meant to counteract Immunity.) I think you probably have a significant advantage as Infiltrator purely by accident.
Post by: Quarque on May 23, 2023, 01:46:07 am
Regarding the helmets, no one would start out with both a helmet and an armor so no one would be immune to bullets unless one person selflessly donates an item. Even then, being immune to bullets still means you can die to an execution or poison.
I understand why it looks like the scum would have an advantage, as they know who they have to kill. However, I believe that with the distribution of kill lists and equipment I have in mind, it would balance out. I hesitate to spell it out, because spoilers. But an important factor is that the infiltrators are working against each other. You wouldn't want anyone outside of your kill list to die, because it might let another infiltrator win.
Another factor is that some kill lists might include other infiltrators, so when they work toward their own victory they might also bring a "town" victory closer (without knowing it).
Post by: notquitethere on January 14, 2024, 01:26:02 pm
Team Rocket have infiltrated the Pokemon Tournament and prize pokemon are going missing!
Before the game begins, players pick a roster of two pokemon to take to the tournament.
Each Tournament Phase, player's send one of their pokemon to fight a free-for-all battle in the arena with their pokemon to decide who is the very best. Which pokemon fought in the battle is public knowledge but, due to the chaos of the format, no one knows whose 'mon is whose. Each Tournament, any number of pokemon may be knocked out based on the battles. Knocked Out pokemon usually need to rest for a whole tournament phase to recover. If a player has no valid pokemon to battle at the start of the tournament, they are eliminated.
Each Discussion Phase players may vote to ban a player from the tournament. They may also trade pokemon during this phase. Knocked out pokemon are revived when traded. Discussion phases are short (36 hours) and if a majority isn't reached during this time, no one is banned.
Each Night Phase, Team Rocket may choose to steal a pokemon (which they may use in future tournament phases) or disrupt a region. Any player can go to one of six regions and, (if its undisrupted) they'll catch a pokemon local to that region. Different regions specialise in different type pokemon (Ice Cavern, Forest Route, Safari, Power Plant etc.).
Play proceeds until all Team Rocket or all non-Team Rocket players are banned from the tournament, or, if five tournament rounds are fought. When the tournament ends, one player is declared the Pokemon Master based on their record in the tournament. If that player is Team Rocket then Team Rocket will win, otherwise the Trainers win.
Pokemon have abilities and strengths/weaknesses based on types. Some have special powers that can be used in other phases. Some may evolve based on specific triggers (such as winning a battle, being traded etc.).
Post by: Mephansteras on January 14, 2024, 01:41:07 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on January 14, 2024, 02:48:38 pm
Day Phase: No changes.
Catch Phase: Pick an area and catch a random Pokemon available there. Different areas specialize in different Pokemon and action types (e.g., Victory Road has Dragon-types, Rock-types, vigs, and roleblockers). Each area has some, but not all, of its list revealed.
Night Phase: Select one of your Pokemon to send out. You may use one of its moves (actions) this night. Incoming actions target both you and the Pokemon; if they're super-effective against your Pokemon's type, they gain a Strongman effect. For example, if you send out your grass-type Venusaur and get hit by a Mafiakill Flamethrower by the mafia's Charizard, doctors can't save you.
Each player starts with one Pokemon and can have up to six. In addition to Pokemon actions, each player's role gives them an innate action—Nurse Joy can heal a player's fainted Pokemon, Officer Jenny can confiscate a Pokemon, Looker can see either what Pokemon a player has out or what area they went to, and so on.
Post by: Quarque on January 14, 2024, 02:56:03 pm
Pokemons act like child-friendly monsters but in fact they are mobsters!
Post by: webadict on January 15, 2024, 10:16:45 pm
Current Roles
- The Chosen One is literally chosen by fate to fight Evil. They are the only role that cannot be Evil, and there is always strictly one per game. The Chosen One provides some benefit to Good while alive, and some benefit to Evil while dead.
- The Chosen One always has access to Reveal, allowing them to reveal themselves as the Chosen One publicly. This grants them two additional votes at the cost of being completely susceptible to kills and immune to investigative actions.
- The Paladin is a holy warrior, fighting with an array of prayers, blessings, and divine artifacts.
- The Paladin has access to at least one Protect, Guard, or Unblockable Ability.
- The Paladin has access to at least one Revive, Kill, or Block Ability.
- The Oracle uses their visions of the future to change its direction.
- The Oracle has access to at least one Inspect, Watch, or Track Ability.
- The Oracle has access to at least one Protect, Revive, or Resurrect Ability.
- The Mercenary uses the knowledge, weapons, and training to fight.
- The Mercenary has access to at least one Kill, Poison, or Ignite Ability.
- The Mercenary has access to at least one Watch, Track, or Inspect Ability.
- The Tinkerer blends the arcane and sciences to make tools, weapons, and anything else to fight.
- The Tinkerer always has access to at least one Item or Equipment.
- The Tinkerer always has access to the Craft or Gift Ability.
- The Devicer uses items that exhibit strange or magical properties.
- The Devicer always has access to at least one Item.
- The Devicer always has access to at least one Equipment.
- The Devicer sometimes has access to an Ability to use more than one Equipment.
- The Apprentice works under the guidance of another, picking up the pieces when they can no longer fight.
- The Apprentice starts with knowledge of the role and alignment of their Master, a Town Player.
- The Apprentice always has access to the main Ability of their Master.
- The Disciple uses their secret arts and techniques to fight, and can even pass these on to others.
- The Disciple always has access to the Teach Ability, allowing them to teach one of their Abilities to another Player.
- The Disciple always has access to a Secret Ability that is unaffected by other Abilities.
- The Summoner can bring forth beings from the other realms. They tend to fight from afar, and can misdirect to protect or distract.
- The Summoner always has access to at least one Bus, Redirect, or Delay Ability.
- The Summoner always has access to at least one Ability that changes AP costs.
- The Channeler utilizes the power of an Outsider, empowering themselves.
- The Channeler always has access to at least one Protect, Inspect, or Block Ability.
- The Channeler always has access to at least one Hide, Revive, or Resurrect Ability.
- The Thief works in the shadows, preferring stealth over brute strength.
- The Thief always has access to at least one Steal, Copy, or Disable Ability.
- The Thief always has access to at least one Hide, Bus, or Untrackable Ability.
- The Elementalist uses magic from all the elements to fight, preferring no one of the other.
- The Elementalist always has access to at least four different One-Shot Abilities.
- The Hexer uses powerful hexes from the Outside realms to stop and confuse.
- The Hexer always has access to the Curse Ability, allowing them to put additional restraints on other Players and their Abilities.
- The Hexer always has access to at least one Bus, Redirect, or Block.
- The Ritualist uses the powers of rituals, difficult magic that has great returns.
- The Ritualist always has access to the Ritual Ability, allowing them to spend more or less AP on Abilities in exchange for modifying the Ability.
- The Ritualist always has access to at least 3 different Rituals.
- The Ritualist always has access to an additional Role or Role Modifier.
This game uses the AP system. You have 3 AP each Night and 1 AP each Day (lol, good luck getting a Day Ability.) This is supposed to be a more Action heavy game, but with a more solvable game state.
Players will always have one or more Roles. Right now, I think there will be additional Actions given beyond what is listed, but I'm willing to change my mind if people want more solvability in their game.
I'm still thinking about this one, but the Chosen One's boon and bane might be selectable by the Evil forces, I haven't decided. This might be something that allows for an Evil team to take a higher risk Bane for a higher reward Boon. There'd be probably three to choose from ranging in difficulty, but an example one might be:
Beacon Of Hope (Difficulty: Hard)
Boon: The Chosen One is known to all non-Evil Players. - Bane: When the Chosen One dies, the Evil Team may perform an additional Evilkill each Night. This is revealed when the Chosen One dies.
Strength Incarnate (Difficulty: Medium)
Boon: The Chosen One starts with an additional Revive. - Bane: When the Chosen One dies, all Kills are immune to Nosy Abilities, and Evilkills are immune to all Abilities. This is revealed when the Chosen One dies.
Chosen Two (Difficulty: Easy)
Boon: The Chosen One starts with a Mason partner. Each Mason can use the other's Abilities while the other lives. - Bane: The Chosen One cannot use the Reveal Ability.
These Banes and Boons will probably only be known to the Chosen One and the Evil team, but some might be revealed when certain things happen, but this means that an Evil team might feel their skills work better for certain Banes and Boons. (Plus, they might see one sucks hardcore and never pick that one because it sucks and they wouldn't be saddled with it.)
There is a list of Role Modifiers, but consider them akin to additional Roles. They are things like being a Half-Demon, a Construct, Cursed, or a Vampire, but I haven't really fleshed out what these might add to the role, so they aren't listed here. Perhaps these might be more... fluid?
There are Items in this game as well as Equipment. Equipment is more things you wear, like Armor, Jewelry, and Clothing, which provides more passive Abilities, where as Items would be something like a Weapon, Wand, or Trinket with Active uses. Items
Aaaand that's about it for now. Questions, comments, concerns, and criticism, if you wouldn't mind.
Post by: Imp on January 15, 2024, 10:35:06 pm
Post by: Shakerag on January 15, 2024, 10:42:53 pm
Aaaand that's about it for now. Questions, comments, concerns, and criticism, if you wouldn't mind.
Just happy to see you still building games, mate. Imma bout to dip my toes back into drunk fortress I think.
Post by: notquitethere on January 16, 2024, 05:17:47 am
Aaaand that's about it for now. Questions, comments, concerns, and criticism, if you wouldn't mind.- I'm a big fun of mafia-as-competitive-puzzle and so it's good to see the more semi-open possibilities. The players won't know exactly what's happening but they can make more informed guesses.
- The Chosen One role is a neat idea. As presented they're more like a sometime innocent-child who is almost guaranteed to die the night after they reveal themselves. Though I suppose with Watchers and other roles that might not be the case-- scum will want to avoid having a town leader with a lot of players running interference.
- I don't think you need to stack multiple roles on players, but if you want to then you could have something like Destiny + Job — so you could have a Chosen One Thief, Cursed Hexer, Vampire Oracle, etc. The modifiers could do stuff with wincons or put a meta twist on the roles they're attached to (like a Leper Paladin could have the normal paladin powers, but they infect others when used; a Pactbound Tinkerer could gain pacts for their demon master when gifting etc. That way benign seeming 'confirmable' abilities could still have unseemingly or chaotic elements).
Post by: Quarque on January 16, 2024, 07:41:14 am
Beacon Of Hope (Difficulty: Hard)I know it's only an example, but in this case I'd be worried that there is a really high risk that one of the town players accidentally spoils who the Chosen One is, giving Evil an easy way to get an OP Bane.
Boon: The Chosen One is known to all non-Evil Players. - Bane: When the Chosen One dies, the Evil Team may perform an additional Evilkill each Night. This is revealed when the Chosen One dies.
Post by: webadict on January 16, 2024, 11:31:55 am
This is true, and I definitely see why there might be some concern. To be sure, there is a high probability of tilting the game in one direction or the other. Consider this a test on how far the game can be tilted. A doublekilling Evil team might not actually be as strong as you think it might be. I consider it adding about 50-60% additional power to the team. They still have to pay for the Evilkill (Standard Evilkill is 1 AP), plus with an AP system, Tracks and Watches become twice as powerful, and so are Protects and Guards. The real issue is that if the Evil team was alrwady doing well, they snowball to victory, but I think that is the feel I want for this type of game.Beacon Of Hope (Difficulty: Hard)I know it's only an example, but in this case I'd be worried that there is a really high risk that one of the town players accidentally spoils who the Chosen One is, giving Evil an easy way to get an OP Bane.
Boon: The Chosen One is known to all non-Evil Players. - Bane: When the Chosen One dies, the Evil Team may perform an additional Evilkill each Night. This is revealed when the Chosen One dies.
By giving such an important Player to the Town, fakeclaiming as them to out OR protect them are viable plays. I'm only wondering if it would be fun to work around that limitation. In this case, the Town would probably need to be aware of such a Bane happening, but this was meant to mimic Assassins in the Palace a bit, where identifying the Sultan/King/whatever is an instant win. This is more of a toned down version.
Post by: Imp on January 16, 2024, 12:57:52 pm
Consider this a test on how far the game can be tilted.
Uhhh, can I in yet?
I'ma innate 'playtester', that's like one of my actual subclasses. This sounds great to explore. Web's very experienced with running games, hugely increases the odds that this is going to be interesting at very least.
Now, how I play may suck to web, and I may not wanna hear that in the flavor web's been using. But that doesn't change my opinion here, that this sounds cool to check out.
I know, I know, web said opine on.
But but but... I'ma be disappointed if this doesn't get tested, in whatever form.
Post by: webadict on January 16, 2024, 01:36:13 pm
Post by: Imp on January 16, 2024, 02:03:32 pm
But I am aOK with a pretty experienced mod calling for an experiment that might be anything, let's see how it goes, especially if I'm told **that** ahead of time. I can't track all the mechanics, especially not in my head, I need a lot more experience before I can have a chance to scan your open setup and spot issues.
I might not leap into a new mod's 'I have an idea' with enthusiasm, but that's no issue here.
Also, if you have a role that you think belongs in the game and is more likely to be under-appreciated and less wanted, offering myself as a good pick for that for experimenting with if you choose. I'm a terrible fit for that if it requires mastery of understanding established mechanics, I won't clear that hurdle.
But if it requires a sincere "I will try this" and "I can try it enthusiastically" from its player to have a chance - even if that role might suck to most people, mebby worth having me try it. If nothing else, I'm still overflowing with joy from the role FoU started me with and can take my turn for 'who wants this, but it belongs in the game' should there be such, without much of a morale hit - and I'm weird enough I might even enjoy a role most wouldn't.
Post by: Elephant Parade on January 16, 2024, 04:00:40 pm
Post by: webadict on January 16, 2024, 05:34:45 pm
I think the only downside to letting Evil pick is that if one option is substantially better than the others, either in general or for their specific role composition, they'll just pick that one. That shouldn't be a problem in practice; it just means more balancing work.True. I think the issue is probably that I might think one isn't that strong and it turns out to be mega-busted. Buuut, that's part of running the game.
That's actually part of the inspiration on this. I like that Paranormal has known Roles and known Actions, but I also enjoy that Supernatural's Roles have a bit of a free-form to them, especially the Evil teams. I thought about making a Paranormal game that could be expanded to an AP system, but I realized that in order to make that work, I'd have to change some fundamental aspects to the game. So, from there, I figured that Roles would have some known aspects to them and some unknown aspects.Aaaand that's about it for now. Questions, comments, concerns, and criticism, if you wouldn't mind.- I'm a big fun of mafia-as-competitive-puzzle and so it's good to see the more semi-open possibilities. The players won't know exactly what's happening but they can make more informed guesses.
- The Chosen One role is a neat idea. As presented they're more like a sometime innocent-child who is almost guaranteed to die the night after they reveal themselves. Though I suppose with Watchers and other roles that might not be the case-- scum will want to avoid having a town leader with a lot of players running interference.
- I don't think you need to stack multiple roles on players, but if you want to then you could have something like Destiny + Job — so you could have a Chosen One Thief, Cursed Hexer, Vampire Oracle, etc. The modifiers could do stuff with wincons or put a meta twist on the roles they're attached to (like a Leper Paladin could have the normal paladin powers, but they infect others when used; a Pactbound Tinkerer could gain pacts for their demon master when gifting etc. That way benign seeming 'confirmable' abilities could still have unseemingly or chaotic elements).
Some of the issue with the Evil teams in action-heavy games is that it's hard to counter everything that could exist. By limiting that design space, there's less an Evil team has to consider (as well as fakeclaim.)
Your idea to have Role Modifiers be Destinies is a good one, and I'll try to tweak it in that direction, especially if they change the expression of the Role and Actions. Having no stacked Roles would mean that every Role would probably need three known Actions, which... Maybe that works? I'll think about it.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 20, 2024, 11:18:43 am
The idea is that everyone brings a name for features of the game - roles, powers, items, alignments, elimination types, even phases or mechanics. These are then taken and turned into a very weird open game. Roles are assigned at random - you can't be sure you'll get what you bring.
The motivation is that there are a lot of closed and bastard games, and this forum has had some frustrations over initially hidden features of these games, especially in the context of BYORs. Something I particularly don't agree with is mod participations/feature creation after the game has begun. It's one thing if it needs drastic rebalancing or you've written the rules wrong, that's just a foul-up and I've been there - but designing it in feels like you're not playing mafia any more. I'd also say the subforum could do with more open or semi-open games.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT people really like BYORS and chaotic mechanics and hats. Me included.
The details aren't fully there, but I'd like to see players able to bring things other than roles. Items are an obvious choice, especially hats, but I'd also like to see players bringing alignments, powers, elimination types, "mechanics", and so on. Players wouldn't be able to specify what the feature they brought would be, but a sincere effort would be made to include whatever was brought in the game.
Of course, you don't want to end up with a different elimination type every day and seven different factions, even if it's an open game, so a cost should be imposed for each feature you bring to the game. Players could have ten coins, say, and could spend them as they liked on features of varying cost. Bringing items would be cheap, while roles would be expensive/limited and elimination types, mechanics and alignments would be very costly. The money would all be spent pre-game, and would have no connection to the actual gameplay.
Not sure what else would be available to purchase - roles should be assigned at random and it's an open game, so nothing that can be used in the actual game.
One idea is boosts - modifiers for the things you bring. Maybe a simple boost to make it more powerful/important to the game, a Death boost to give it more killing power, an Ultra boost to make it uncircumventable, a Meta boost to make it influence other mechanics, a Meme boost that forces the GM to reference insufferable mafia subforum memes in the flavour, and so on. Boosts would also cost money, so maybe you'd give up bringing a role and an item, and just bring a boosted role instead.
Obviously this would be a nightmare to balance and run, but it might be an open game that nonetheless satisfies that BYOR craving.
Post by: Imp on January 20, 2024, 11:53:04 am
so a cost should be imposed for each feature you bring to the game. Players could have ten coins, say, and could spend them as they liked on features of varying cost. Bringing items would be cheap, while roles would be expensive/limited and elimination types, mechanics and alignments would be very costly. The money would all be spent pre-game, and would have no connection to the actual gameplay.
Not sure what else would be available to purchase - roles should be assigned at random and it's an open game, so nothing that can be used in the actual game.
This sounds interesting and I'm generally up to play whatever, but...
Are you saying that we 'pay' a limited resource to bring stuff to the open, as well as pay that same resource to choose what we want to play from it?
So Max helpfully pays to bring 'kill' as an option for us all and then pays more to be able to use it, while I can just wait to see what others already brought then pay that 'more' to be able to use what I see, and don't even have to pay to bring anything?
Or are you interpreting this another way?
Post by: TricMagic on January 20, 2024, 12:10:38 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on January 20, 2024, 01:34:49 pm
Kind of like “Bring someone else’s role” except you also bring items, alignments, elimination types, etc. And it’s open.
I realise doing it that way might mean losing some of the appeal of the BYORs.
Might suggest putting it in sign-ups so you have time to balance everything. With the understanding it will probably be in a month.It would take a while to design the open game, so might be worth putting in signups very early. If I was going to do this idea, I’d probably need a hand balancing though. Any volunteers?
Post by: Imp on January 20, 2024, 02:27:12 pm
“Bring someone else’s role”
I suspect we'd find a lot of poisoned roles on offer, the kind that people think they'd enjoy playing against.
Post by: RoseHeart on January 27, 2024, 08:06:35 am
Post by: webadict on January 27, 2024, 08:18:19 am
I've been really struggling as a forum game host, freezing up and my anxiety is getting worse. When I am able it's a very enjoyable and satisfying hobby. I want to ask webadict if there may be a way to cohost a mafia with his bot. Is it self sustaining on its own now? If so I could add art and story, and if I have problems at least the bot could finish. Also how long does it take for someone to express interest in hosting, and then be able to do so? If webadict gives permission then I'd like to reserve hosting a mafia please.I'm running the next one, a new game type called "Demonology" if you wanna help with that. If you meant me helping with running your own Mafia, I'm not sure if there's anyone specifically waiting after me, so... whenever you have an idea, you can just ask, probably. So far, we've only had a couple of people asking to run games at a time, but there's not really any specific queue anymore.
The bot is currently just a script I run as needed. It doesn't run anything on its own (nor does it keep any track of the game.) TolyK was working on a bot that was potentially self-sustaining, but he's been kinda busy lately. You might be able to ask him for it? Though, you might be better off having another player help run your game, which I wouldn't mind doing.
Post by: RoseHeart on January 27, 2024, 09:01:19 am
Consider me in for Demonology!
Post by: TolyK on January 30, 2024, 03:24:25 am
It's as if I felt my name being called and logged back in after months. :DI've been really struggling as a forum game host, freezing up and my anxiety is getting worse. When I am able it's a very enjoyable and satisfying hobby. I want to ask webadict if there may be a way to cohost a mafia with his bot. Is it self sustaining on its own now? If so I could add art and story, and if I have problems at least the bot could finish. Also how long does it take for someone to express interest in hosting, and then be able to do so? If webadict gives permission then I'd like to reserve hosting a mafia please.I'm running the next one, a new game type called "Demonology" if you wanna help with that. If you meant me helping with running your own Mafia, I'm not sure if there's anyone specifically waiting after me, so... whenever you have an idea, you can just ask, probably. So far, we've only had a couple of people asking to run games at a time, but there's not really any specific queue anymore.
The bot is currently just a script I run as needed. It doesn't run anything on its own (nor does it keep any track of the game.) TolyK was working on a bot that was potentially self-sustaining, but he's been kinda busy lately. You might be able to ask him for it? Though, you might be better off having another player help run your game, which I wouldn't mind doing.
I haven't worked on the bot or on mafia in forever. :(
The engine behind the bot is here: GitHub (https://github.com/open-mafia/open_mafia_engine) and documentation (https://open-mafia-engine.readthedocs.io/en/latest/).
The Bay12 bot itself is private on GitHub (mostly to reduce spam... I think it can be open-sourced now?) but also needs documentation on how to be configured, etc. It's not "configure, fire and forget" at this point, so if you're not super technical it's not going to work, sorry.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 06, 2024, 11:53:32 pm
The base mafiakill is always Free. To make the allure of mechanical analysis to figure out 'who killed' less tempting, the mafiakill is always a Free action. Doesn't grant immunity to tracking or any other form of investigation, but it doesn't take up the night action slot to use. This would only apply to the base mafiakill, special ones wouldn't have Free by default.
Yes, I know web's AP system solves this too, but that's a headache to design and keep track of.
Directly quoting private chats is forbidden. Currently, there's a litmus test for anyone claiming to have a private chat, whether it be deadchat or a mason chat, which is 'directly quote a block of text from the chat'. Under this rule, that would be forbidden for a similar reason as directly quoting private mod communications / role PM stuff. Paraphrasing would still be completely fine.
Reworked mediums. Currently, being a medium in a role heavy game provides a ton of information, and it's a strongly town-sided role. If a non-town player ends up as a medium, it's useful to them, but it leaves the dead players with a lot of discontent.
A new medium design would be a channeler - someone who can pick one player, during the Day, to rejoin the living to converse in some limited fashion. Something like "sending messages to the mod which are relayed once per real-life day".
This would also provide room for scum fake-mediums which can write fake messages. I'm still thinking that idea over, though.
Personal priority: abilities are still resolved according to natural action resolution or a variant, but in the event of paradox or contradiction, each player has a hidden individual priority score, each unique, and the player with the higher score would have their abilities win out in such a paradox/contradiction scenario. Yeah, sure, you can assign priority to abilities, but you can still run into matching scores in that case, plus weird stuff with autos.
The scores, I think, would be assigned randomly.
Post by: hector13 on February 07, 2024, 12:12:54 am
Not really sure on everything else since I’m not a night game kinda guy, though being able to mechanically solve things by D3/4 is usually a bit naff.
Post by: Elephant Parade on February 07, 2024, 12:15:20 am
Also, I think mediums are just intrinsically goofy and shouldn't be nearly as common as they are.
e: Part of my frustration with RNG resolution comes from how my FBYOR masonbuddy got sus'd for stealing the same vote as another player and always losing the coinflip. That was very silly, and his action always being the one to fail because he rolled lower at the start would be no less silly.
e2: I assume free mafiakills would also imply weaker mafiakills -- the ones in FBYOR were pretty crazy
Post by: Quarque on February 07, 2024, 01:57:31 am
Consider me in for Demonology!Did you play Mafia before? Since you are struggling with anxiety, please be warned. This is about the worst activity for someone with anxiety that I can think of. You're better off watching The Ring whilst high on LSD.
Post by: notquitethere on February 07, 2024, 04:29:52 am
The base mafiakill is always Free.Pretty reasonable in a multi-action game.
Directly quoting private chats is forbidden.Yes I like this. Chat's are already powerful, quoting them makes them more so.
Personal priorityI did something like this with Puzzle Temple Panic: each person had a different priority number for each of four action types, so it balanced out. In a regular game, it's probably preferable to design the system to avoid paradoxes.
Post by: Imp on February 07, 2024, 10:01:27 am
Consider me in for Demonology!Did you play Mafia before? Since you are struggling with anxiety, please be warned. This is about the worst activity for someone with anxiety that I can think of. You're better off watching The Ring whilst high on LSD.
Hahahaha. Agreed. Perfect comparison. I think the only folks who find Mafia relaxing are the Steve Irwins of the world, the Crocodile Dundees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vW54lAtldI
Post by: webadict on February 07, 2024, 09:52:52 pm
Also, Fallacy, I already implemented all of those changes into Demonology and more. In addition to those changes, the AP system makes the base Mafiakill modular cost from 1-3, since Actions can differ based on their AP cost. Plus, I think I made a good balance between having a solvable game and absolutely not wanting to claim things by having the Mafiakill use a new system Called Shots, where accurately guessing Player Roles makes the Mafiakill unstoppable and untraceable at the cost of failing if guessing wrong (Not Calling is valid, too.)
Additionally, there is literally never an issue with priority. If two Actions take place (such as two zplayers stealing another Player's vote), both Actions would resolve as normal, with each Player receiving a vote, and the stealee having 0 votes (you cannot have -1 votes, obviously.) Things like Roleblockers blocking each other would have neither Action blocked due to priority resolution (RNG blocking would be hella dumb, the Actions are happening simultaneously!)