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Other Projects => Curses => Topic started by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 03, 2009, 11:13:00 am

Title: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 03, 2009, 11:13:00 am
Well, Mrs. Fox has gone and done it. She went and made a controversial change that not everyone will be happy about.  :(

You see, I tried to sleep, but kept having visions of programming and modding games. I booted up the source code and decided to do something productive. I just didn't know what, and I kind of plunked at stuff and before long the result was that the next version of LCS will have gender in it. Names will be assigned accordingly. You can press G on your character sheet to "Fix Gender Label" and toggle between Male, Female, and Androgynous. If the selected gender label is different from the original one, an asterisk will be left by it to indicate that it is in conflict with Conservative society's Conservative preconceptions about Conservative identity. At the moment there are no gameplay implications (though you can see both an age estimate and gender when you are talking to people during site actions, in case Conservative sexism or ageism matters to you), but now that the meat of the feature is in place, it shouldn't be hard to sprinkle effects on top of it.

This has long been a very controversial feature, with some thinking it's a great idea to have gender, others thinking it's a bad idea that violates the spirit of the game. The conclusion I eventually came to was that there was potential gameplay benefit in adding it, but I felt it must be done Liberally if it was to be done at all. By this, I mean mainly that you must not be forced to adhere to Conservative gender labels. This is why you are permitted to correct the gender labels the game gives you by toggling to a more appropriate one on a case-by-case basis, including one for neither male nor female. This ability will not be without its price, however, at least once I get around to implementing the drawback: Liberals in the game will respect changes you make to gender label, but Conservatives will not (and will be put off by your foolishness), and moderates will vary based on the gay rights issue.

Another concern is that right now half of all police officers, CEOs, Presidents, and eminent scientists are women. While laudable, this is far too Liberal to be the case at the start of the game, when Conservative patriarchy is not only ruling but ascendant. This, I expect, will thus have to be linked to a new Women's issue.

I am interested in your views on these and other issues that will arise from adding gender to the game.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Servant Corps on March 03, 2009, 11:34:52 am
Quote
Another concern is that right now half of all police officers, CEOs, Presidents, and eminent scientists are women. While laudable, this is far too Liberal to be the case at the start of the game, when Conservative patriarchy is not only ruling but ascendant.

Nah, I say keep it. The RNG Gods would likely have all the police officers, CEO, Presidents, and eminent scientists to be Female, causing the females preside over a sexist society that discriminate against women and support the male-dominanted society. It'd be funny.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: chaoticag on March 03, 2009, 12:32:59 pm
The left side of my brain wants to go "No! Bad Fox! BAD!"
Wheras the right side of my brain wishes to commend you for having androgenous in.

I'll let them fight it out for a while.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: mainiac on March 03, 2009, 01:06:39 pm
 :'(
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 03, 2009, 03:47:36 pm
Bear in mind this is still cuttable, but I'd like to give it a shot.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Yanlin on March 03, 2009, 03:49:18 pm
Quote from: Jonathan S. Fox on March 03, 2009, 11:13:00 am
Mrs. Fox

The secret is revealed.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 03, 2009, 04:29:08 pm
Or is it??
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: EuchreJack on March 03, 2009, 06:43:02 pm
Bravo Miss Wolf!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't know who your are, but keep up the good work.

Way I see it, the player can choose to be liberally free or conservatively covert, so I really don't see a problem.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Fieari on March 03, 2009, 06:56:06 pm
As I've said in previous threads on the subject, I'm in favor of this. 

But more to the point, a women's (womyn's?) rights issue would be great, and having a STRONG patriarchy in a conservative society would work very well.  Arch-conservative could enforce a curfew against women in public... or require them to be escorted by a male!  Obviously, there would be fewer female lawyers, judges, CEOs, scientists, and police officers in a merely conservative society.

The question in my mind though, is should ultra-liberal be ultra-egalitarian, or should it be ultra-feminist, meaning replacing the patriarchy with a matriarchy?

Or perhaps there could be a feminist crime squad that seeks to overthrow the patriarchy and replace it with a matriarchy?  While there's a patriarchy, the FCS and the LCS would be aligned, but as the laws are made more liberal, the FCS would turn against the LCS...
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Gimmick Account on March 03, 2009, 07:20:19 pm
Quote from: Jonathan S. Fox on March 03, 2009, 03:47:36 pm
Bear in mind this is still cuttable, but I'd like to give it a shot.

Hell no, please don't cut anything. This change was long overdue anyway; not having genders in a game about breaking the conservative stranglehold on society didn't make any sense. Yes, I know the liberals don't care about it, but they're just a minority, and virtually nonexistant in positions of power.

I also agree about having proportionally less females in 'important' and/or traditionally 'male' positions when women's rights are anything less than Elite Liberal. In the same way, male prostitutes should start appearing on the streets (but not in the CCS hideout!) as women's rights get more liberal.

This will also have an interesting effect on the gay rights issue. Tried to seduce another man? You're under arrest!

In Conservative and Arch-Conservative societies, propaganda actions (hijacking a broadcast, writing for the Liberal Guardian, etc.) obviously commited by females could have a reduced (or negative?) effect.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Servant Corps on March 03, 2009, 07:29:49 pm
Quote
Or perhaps there could be a feminist crime squad that seeks to overthrow the patriarchy and replace it with a matriarchy?  While there's a patriarchy, the FCS and the LCS would be aligned, but as the laws are made more liberal, the FCS would turn against the LCS...

I'm thinking of how this could be implemented, at least with my knowledge.

According to the Organization template I got (which I used to create the Stalinist Comrade Squad), a FCS would likely campagin for L+ laws...but what law would FCS desire to go C+ (and thereby cause the LCS to loath the FCS)?

Once some laws go L+ and other laws go C+, only then will the FCS convince people to finally submit to their femenine overlords, and thus the LCS would lose the game.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Gimmick Account on March 03, 2009, 07:33:43 pm
I'm not sure if there should be more than two organizations fighting for supremacy here. Unless they're just local cells of a common, larger ideology (discussed in the 'National LCS' idea thread, I believe).
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: mainiac on March 03, 2009, 07:55:19 pm
Quote from: Servant Corps on March 03, 2009, 07:29:49 pm
Once some laws go L+ and other laws go C+, only then will the FCS convince people to finally submit to their femenine overlords, and thus the LCS would lose the game.

Challenges from L+ societies would be nice.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on March 03, 2009, 08:32:36 pm
Yay, I was waiting for this for so long!
This will probably sound pretty conservative, but the thought of my main character taking it up the butt is pretty demoralizing... :-[

That and women saying "feel something bulge" disturbed me.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Skeeblix on March 04, 2009, 07:07:24 am
Quote from: Servant Corps on March 03, 2009, 07:29:49 pm
and thus the LCS would lose the game.

You are an evil, evil person.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Gimmick Account on March 04, 2009, 10:15:26 am
I've been thinking. Be afraid!

"Women's Rights" should be called "Gender Equality" or something similarly generic, since it would define 'proper' behaviour for both sexes. The more Conservative "Gender Equality" is, the less women would be seen wearing anything other than dresses (in fact, women wearing pants in an Arch-Conservative society should be a misdemeanor). At Elite Liberal status, many men would be seen wearing dresses in public, too.

Another request I have, especially in light of the new gender system (which affects actual gameplay and isn't just cosmetic like names), is a way to define both the gender of your founder during character generation and the ability to randomize the name until you get one that you like. Maybe also an editable text file with all First and Surnames in it?

Finally, you seem to be in a productive mood lately. Any guesses as to when we'll see the next release?
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 04, 2009, 12:06:47 pm
I'm inclined to biological sex and given name random on character creation, since they are out of your control. You can always fix your character up to your liking in-game. Granted, you might have to be going by an alternate name and bucking Conservative society on the gender issue, but that's life for you.

Next release should be awhile yet, there's some major work on the slate for 3.19 that still needs to be done. Anywhere from two weeks to two months, if I stay in a productive mood.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on March 04, 2009, 08:29:57 pm
Quote from: Gimmick Account on March 04, 2009, 10:15:26 am
is a way to define both the gender of your founder during character generation and the ability to randomize the name until you get one that you like. Maybe also an editable text file with all First and Surnames in it?
This.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Rakeela on March 06, 2009, 03:03:36 am
It would be hilarious (at least to me) if the game randomly determined at the start of it whether the world started out patriarchal or matriarchal.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: chaoticag on March 06, 2009, 07:31:34 am
Can we have gender equality instead of womens rights?
It could go like this:

Transvesticism and sex change Illegal, people must comply to gender norms.

Transvesticism discouraged, sex change minor offence.

Transvesticism and sex change discouraged.

Sex change discouraged, but feel free to express yourself.

Be who/what you want to be.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Rakeela on March 06, 2009, 09:13:11 am
Since part of the theme of the game is to be over the top, those'd result in a death penalty, not merely illegality.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Kanil on March 07, 2009, 07:32:53 am
Quote from: Jonathan S. Fox on March 04, 2009, 12:06:47 pm
I'm inclined to biological sex and given name random on character creation, since they are out of your control.

Well, not really. We can just restart repeatedly until we get the name/gender/whatever we want.

Which is sort of a pain in the ass...

Also, huge thumbs up to the idea of a list of names that we can add to!

Edit: And huge thumbs up for adding in gender, as well. Great!
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Gimmick Account on March 07, 2009, 03:20:18 pm
Quote from: Kanil on March 07, 2009, 07:32:53 am
Quote from: Jonathan S. Fox on March 04, 2009, 12:06:47 pm
I'm inclined to biological sex and given name random on character creation, since they are out of your control.

Well, not really. We can just restart repeatedly until we get the name/gender/whatever we want.

Which is sort of a pain in the ass...

Yes, exactly. Jonathan, I understand your position from an ideological standpoint, but this seems to be one of those cases where fun should take precedence over realism. Remember also that, going by this criterion, the questions in the beginning would render character generation logically inconsistent because they allow you to define stuff that is just as much outside of your control as your name and gender, for example parental behaviour during your early childhood or the date of your birth.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Servant Corps on March 07, 2009, 03:22:28 pm
Just have gender be choosable at the start of the game. The name can be randomized, since that's why Codenames were invented in the first place. It was the name Conservative society gave to you, you know...
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 07, 2009, 05:03:53 pm
Okay, I'm persuaded to let you customize your character more at start, including at least gender and maybe name as well.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Gimmick Account on March 07, 2009, 05:32:54 pm
Thank you! It's just a small crack in the fourth wall at the very beginning... it'll only hurt a little bit, I promise! ;)
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Little on March 07, 2009, 10:00:26 pm
Quote from: Jonathan S. Fox on March 07, 2009, 05:03:53 pm
Okay, I'm persuaded to let you customize your character more at start, including at least gender and maybe name as well.

Yay!
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Kanil on March 08, 2009, 02:00:59 am
Indeed, thank you!
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: EuchreJack on March 08, 2009, 10:53:15 am
While I always want the option to create a custom character, it would also be cool if we had a "Random Start" option, where everything is randomized.

It's a lot easier than running the program with dice and coin in hand. ;)
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 10, 2009, 12:06:14 am
Added the ability to change your name, gender, and have it randomize your character history choices. If you have it randomize your history, it'll still go through the process, but it will select the answers for you (and display only those) instead of letting you decide how to answer each question.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: beorn080 on March 10, 2009, 12:52:58 am
Cool. I would say that even a random stat and skill roll up would be useful, but that would probably be abused.
Title: Re: Male, Female, and Beyond
Post by: EuchreJack on March 10, 2009, 05:29:58 pm
Thanks!