If we'd meet someone higher up the ladder, they'd probably catch a few of us and teach us how to jump through hoops, kick balls around, and call us "flipper".And then we'd have sex with them.
Still, most historians agree: we did have sex with them.Not even historians, the vast majority of humans carry Neanderthal genetics.
Alright, ancient human history buffs, how many species of humans were there?About 14, though the legitimacy of some of these have been doubted. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo#Species)
Also, how far is andromedra?2.5 million lightyears from Earth.
And what are the thoughts on developed terrestrial contact between our species and another intelligent one. Say we got to the point where you could have a conversation with an orangutan.We can have some basic conversations via sign language with some species of ape. Monkeys aren't as smart as they are in the movies, really... From what I've seen it's somewhat like talking to a 2 year old. They can learn basic stuff, but higher concepts elude them.
aliens are into hentai, then?Money bling bling
Unless the aliens are us, from the future. Then we're just fucked.Quite literally.
The nuclear fuel onboard the Voyager probes is going to dip below the minimum power threshold sometime between 2020-2025, so the chances of alien life ever finding them are slim to none.The chance of alien life ever finding them where slim to none from the moment they launched. Space is rather big.
Yes, but it's greater while they're still broadcasting. The signals encompass a much larger area than the probe itself.The nuclear fuel onboard the Voyager probes is going to dip below the minimum power threshold sometime between 2020-2025, so the chances of alien life ever finding them are slim to none.The chance of alien life ever finding them where slim to none from the moment they launched. Space is rather big.
Then again, their signal is probably outmatched by the signals from Earth, which have been going for longer.(Though they are still weaker).Yes, but it's greater while they're still broadcasting. The signals encompass a much larger area than the probe itself.The nuclear fuel onboard the Voyager probes is going to dip below the minimum power threshold sometime between 2020-2025, so the chances of alien life ever finding them are slim to none.The chance of alien life ever finding them where slim to none from the moment they launched. Space is rather big.
Then again, their signal is probably outmatched by the signals from Earth, which have been going for longer.(Though they are still weaker).Now you can't say that for certain. The chance of us ever meeting intelligent alien life is directly proportional to the period of time the human race exists as an intelligent entity, which is at this time an unknown factor that neither of us can accurately predict.
However, the chance of intelligent alien life ever meeting us is near nihil.
Well, "sapient" has a really shitty definition. Our "sapience" could be extremely mundane to an alien species. If they come along and look at our big cities and whatnot, what's to stop them from thinking "oh, one of these invasive species. Let's wipe them out before they ruin their planet's biodiversity."
And then Earth's economy becomes based around being interstellar pimps for squids.
Ill just drop this here, for relevance, and just in case.Spoiler: Huuuuge Image... (click to show/hide)
As much crap as that movie gets for its cheesiness, it actually had some intelligent scenes.Independence day:Well, "sapient" has a really shitty definition. Our "sapience" could be extremely mundane to an alien species. If they come along and look at our big cities and whatnot, what's to stop them from thinking "oh, one of these invasive species. Let's wipe them out before they ruin their planet's biodiversity."
HA HA TOO LATE ALIENS
'whoa whoa whoa! what are you doing?'
'Trashing the place!'
'well yeah, I can see that, but why?'
'Maybe if we fuck up the earth enough they'll leave!
I remember reading this one short story where the alien race had discovered gravitational technology and hadn't needed to progress beyond black powder weapons to conquer other races. They landed on earth, declared themselves king (or something) and their redshirts were promptly fucked up by automatic weapons.The Road Not Taken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_(short_story)).
That's quite interesting, what if not only are they biologically different, but also technologically different? I find it quite amusing that both would view each other as the technological superior.I remember reading this one short story where the alien race had discovered gravitational technology and hadn't needed to progress beyond black powder weapons to conquer other races. They landed on earth, declared themselves king (or something) and their redshirts were promptly fucked up by automatic weapons.The Road Not Taken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_(short_story)).
Re: What has, and would happen, realistically, at first contact?
the odds of pathogens for us working on aliens, or vice versa, are just about nil. Evolved totally separately.Which is what would make such a thing absolutely devastating. Cross species pathogens can be a =/= I hope you live in madagascar situation. So no, not nil. Very possible unless both civilizations took necessary precautions, or were radically different. All it would take is one virus that loves spreading spehss toxins throughout your body to mess things up like crayfish.
Note to self, must find Morgan Freeman and give gravity gun for sake of humanity.
Which is what would make such a thing absolutely devastating. Cross species pathogens can be a =/= I hope you live in madagascar situation. So no, not nil. Very possible unless both civilizations took necessary precautions, or were radically different. All it would take is one virus that loves spreading spehss toxins throughout your body to mess things up like crayfish.IIRC, the reason why the cross-continental plagues were so devastating was that viruses and bacteria evolve much, much faster than humans do under all but the most extreme conditions (such as massive die-outs from plagues). Because of this, diseases can evolve to infect humanity in general while humans must adapt to each specific disease in particular. Therefore, a disease can be quite well adapted to infect humans (including isolated islanders), while those islanders would be poorly adapted to stop against that disease. An alien disease, on the other hand, would not be adapted to humans at all.
I saw a "documentary" about this exact thing a while ago. It started out promising but took a turn for the absurd at the end, but one point it made that stuck with me is that if we are dealing with a species that's looking for resources, they'll be looking for something rare. And the rarest substance in the universe, as far as we know, is organic matter. Proteins. People, animals and planets. So basically there is a non-zero possibility that they really would want to eat us all.Finding complex organic matter is rare, but making it is likely fairly easy for an advanced civilization. So aliens would only want to eat us if they want new things to eat, like some sort of fanatical food tourists.
On the other hand, I would speculate that significant damage might be done by a primitive invasive organism that harms people indirectly, such as an alien rock mold that produces poisonous gas.yeah, like those nasty cyanobacteria that filled our atmosphere with a very poisonous gas, causing a mass extinction a bajillion years ago
Did you also hear about that one from a certain Larry Niven book?On the other hand, I would speculate that significant damage might be done by a primitive invasive organism that harms people indirectly, such as an alien rock mold that produces poisonous gas.yeah, like those nasty cyanobacteria that filled our atmosphere with a very poisonous gas, causing a mass extinction a bajillion years ago
actually, no. who's the guy?A fairly well known science fiction writer.
Past, present and future scenarios? Including self aware AI.
Actually, on that note how likely would you say a space-faring hivemind/zerg/tyrannid etc. race is?In the intrepretation as given: Ie Zerg, tyranid. Quite unlikely. There are several problems with their expansion style. Their ships are organic, which is not good for propulsion and long term survival. They require organic planets to consume, and their hivemind system is practically impossible.(Though not really, they could use radio signals for communication, in some weird alien way).
Actually, on that note how likely would you say a space-faring hivemind/zerg/tyrannid etc. race is?If they functioned anything like bees or ants using chemicals for communication as a single large entity composed of the hundreds of thousands of tiny organisms but on a planetwide scale? Yes, it could be possible. The chances of such an entity developing space travel? Unlikely. We'd be more likely to find them than them to us.
I don't think chemicals would work on a planetwide scale.Actually, on that note how likely would you say a space-faring hivemind/zerg/tyrannid etc. race is?If they functioned anything like bees or ants using chemicals for communication as a single large entity composed of the hundreds of thousands of tiny organisms but on a planetwide scale? Yes, it could be possible. The chances of such an entity developing space travel? Unlikely. We'd be more likely to find them than them to us.
(And then they hitch a ride on a spehss ship and invade other planets. Muahuahahaha)
http://webecoist.momtastic.com/2009/01/04/7-architectural-wonders-of-the-natural-world/I don't think chemicals would work on a planetwide scale.Actually, on that note how likely would you say a space-faring hivemind/zerg/tyrannid etc. race is?If they functioned anything like bees or ants using chemicals for communication as a single large entity composed of the hundreds of thousands of tiny organisms but on a planetwide scale? Yes, it could be possible. The chances of such an entity developing space travel? Unlikely. We'd be more likely to find them than them to us.
(And then they hitch a ride on a spehss ship and invade other planets. Muahuahahaha)
On a hive scale? Sure, but getting larger then that wouldn't work due to delays and problems communicating over distance.
Other ways would work (using wireless wavelengths, electronic communication using trees or nerve's or whatever over great distance), but I am not sure how easy they would be able to get any of those naturally (although I could see a constructed race or an AI swarm or something using it pretty easily).
"To add to their eeriness, they (Molerats) are essentially cold-blooded and feel absolutely no pain."
"The largest ant colony discovered to date stretches over 4000 miles across Europe – this super-colony is suspected to have billions of ants.
Ants don't actually have a hivemind. It can appear that they have one, and they work amazingly together, but they can't pool their intellect, their behavior is genetically based, and they lack other things that a true hivemind would have.Ants do have a hivemind. They only don't have the sci fi intrepretation of a hivemind. The difference between those is that the ant one is possible from a scientific perspective, while the second one is heavily dependent on the abilitiy to psychically connect.
Hive mind may refer to:
- Collective consciousness (Ie, not your intrepretation)
- The apparent consciousness of colonies of social insects such as ants, bees and termites (Ants)
- Swarm intelligence, the collective behaviour of decentralized, self-organized systems, natural or artificial (My intrepretation)
Ants don't actually have a hivemind. It can appear that they have one, and they work amazingly together, but they can't pool their intellect, their behavior is genetically based, and they lack other things that a true hivemind would have.Not a sci-fi hivemind, no.
Or the megastructures. Ie mean, the ants make bridges to grab leaves, pull them together and them pin them together using the heads of other ants. I mean, that's taking one for the team.Life comes cheap when you're a drone :P
Well, as long as we can do succesfull diplomacy with them, everything is fine. If they learn that crush/kill/destroy is the easiest way to handle it, we might have to vaporize quite a lot of them to get it out of their system.Or the megastructures. Ie mean, the ants make bridges to grab leaves, pull them together and them pin them together using the heads of other ants. I mean, that's taking one for the team.Life comes cheap when you're a drone :P
But what if two opposing alien swarms meet? The human hive mind vs the alien hive mind? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjIKw2ay1RQ&feature=related)
Ants don't actually have a hivemind. It can appear that they have one, and they work amazingly together, but they can't pool their intellect, their behavior is genetically based, and they lack other things that a true hivemind would have.Ants do have a hivemind. They only don't have the sci fi intrepretation of a hivemind. The difference between those is that the ant one is possible from a scientific perspective, while the second one is heavily dependent on the abilitiy to psychically connect.
Besides, who said ants can't pool intellect. The definition of a hivemind is that they are individually dumb, but smart in numbers. Ants can solve a maze quite quickly, by each taking a different route and covering it with a chemical. The shortest route will be covered the most, so all ants start following it.Quote from: WikipediaHive mind may refer to:
- Collective consciousness (Ie, not your intrepretation)
- The apparent consciousness of colonies of social insects such as ants, bees and termites (Ants)
- Swarm intelligence, the collective behaviour of decentralized, self-organized systems, natural or artificial (My intrepretation)
They don't pool their intellect together though, that's the key thing.Ants don't actually have a hivemind. It can appear that they have one, and they work amazingly together, but they can't pool their intellect, their behavior is genetically based, and they lack other things that a true hivemind would have.Not a sci-fi hivemind, no.
But they along with bees function as a super organism. Where they actually do pool their intellect together. Groups of specialists working in concerto can achieve what individuals cannot, and our own swarms give us a good idea of that.
If a scout finds food, it leaves chemical trails so that workers can find them. If the colony needs to fragment, the females may no long be chemically suppressed and become queens.
Then you've got the downright awesome examples of the supply lines soldier ants make, or the ant boats :P
Ninja'd.
Ants are in the latter group. The "rules" that govern an ant's actions don't change when it's in a group
QuoteAnts are in the latter group. The "rules" that govern an ant's actions don't change when it's in a group
...
When the stakes are that high, is it reasonable to not exterminate potential spacefaring civilizations? If they do it first, your entire race is gone.Would any civilization that would so callously resort to existential genocide make it to being a spacefairing civilization at all? It would seem to me that they would wipe themselves out long before that, since we know from our own experience that planet-killing weaponry will likely come centuries before mass space travel.
I love how half the posts in this thread are tantamount to "gods ways are so above us we couldn't possibly understand" except instead of god its aliens.Only half is a good place to start :P
When the stakes are that high, is it reasonable to not exterminate potential spacefaring civilizations? If they do it first, your entire race is gone.Would any civilization that would so callously resort to existential genocide make it to being a spacefairing civilization at all? It would seem to me that they would wipe themselves out long before that, since we know from our own experience that planet-killing weaponry will likely come centuries before mass space travel.
Furthermore, we cannot definitively say that there is no way to defend against relativistic weaponry. We have not reached that level of technological development. An advanced computer system also employing relativistic weapons could be used to counter such an attack.
When the stakes are that high, is it reasonable to not exterminate potential spacefaring civilizations? If they do it first, your entire race is gone.Would any civilization that would so callously resort to existential genocide make it to being a spacefairing civilization at all? It would seem to me that they would wipe themselves out long before that, since we know from our own experience that planet-killing weaponry will likely come centuries before mass space travel.
Furthermore, we cannot definitively say that there is no way to defend against relativistic weaponry. We have not reached that level of technological development. An advanced computer system also employing relativistic weapons could be used to counter such an attack.
1. Who says? Humans are, for the most part, loath to hurt each other, but have no qualms about killing members of other species, even highly intelligent ones (Dolphins would be a good example). Harmony within a civilization doesn't necessarily translate to friendliness toward other species, especially when they're an existential threat
2. Main problem is it's impossible to track. If you see it ten light years away at .9c it's actually one light year away, and by the time you've figured out where it should be it's somewhere else. Could a computer do the right math to catch it?
I don't really see any reason that an advanced race must be friendly toward other races. Even if they are, the big thing: If you're wrong, you're extinct. Knowing what you know about humans, would you bet the survival of your entire species on a mysterious alien race being friendly?
1. Who says? Humans are, for the most part, loath to hurt each other, but have no qualms about killing members of other species, even highly intelligent ones (Dolphins would be a good example). Harmony within a civilization doesn't necessarily translate to friendliness toward other species, especially when they're an existential threatExcept that there are lots of people now who do have qualms against killing Dolphins, higher primates, Elephants, and such. The reason for this is that we've come to understand signs of intelligence from them. An alien race's technology would demonstrate from the start that they have intellect comparable to ours. At the very least, I cannot see Humanity wiping out another species we know to be intelligent as we are "just in case".
2. Main problem is it's impossible to track. If you see it ten light years away at .9c it's actually one light year away, and by the time you've figured out where it should be it's somewhere else. Could a computer do the right math to catch it?Computers can comprehend things quicker than people can. It would have more time to finish creating a counter to such an attack because its perception of reality could well be near light-speed itself. To an advanced enough computer an approaching relativistic kill weapon would appear to be moving fairly slowly. We're talking about centuries of progress in the field that can't really be well speculated upon well.
I don't really see any reason that an advanced race must be friendly toward other races. Even if they are, the big thing: If you're wrong, you're extinct.A race that would be genocidally unfriendly towards other races would almost certainly have turned upon itself in some way before that point in time. It could be considered a version of the Great Filter.
Knowing what you know about humans, would you bet the survival of your entire species on a mysterious alien race being friendly?Knowing what you know about humans, would you bet the survival of our entire species on none of us being so crazy that we'd launch relativistic weapons on our own worlds? The internal threat is larger than the external one, and we can't exactly wipe ourselves out to ensure our safety.
QuoteKnowing what you know about humans, would you bet the survival of your entire species on a mysterious alien race being friendly?Knowing what you know about humans, would you bet the survival of our entire species on none of us being so crazy that we'd launch relativistic weapons on our own worlds? The internal threat is larger than the external one, and we can't exactly wipe ourselves out to ensure our safety.
Yes. It's the only way to win the Dilemma. Check my previous post. I'd rather face annihilation and risk winning cooperation, then go for assured destruction on one side or the other.
Except that there are lots of people now who do have qualms against killing Dolphins, higher primates, Elephants, and such. The reason for this is that we've come to understand signs of intelligence from them.
A race that would be genocidally unfriendly towards other races would almost certainly have turned upon itself in some way before that point in time. It could be considered a version of the Great Filter.
we can't exactly wipe ourselves out to ensure our safety.
Any weapon is blockable, but the defensive technique often comes after the offensive technique. People thought bullets were unstoppable, until Kevlar.Yes, but sometimes defensive techniques leap first (think trench warfare and emplaced machine-guns) and these tend to be the bloodiest conflicts. So we'd have two "kevlar-coated" planets lobbing a slew of relativistic kill vehicles at each other, and having them ricochet off and kill half the damn galaxy in the process.
Thus, we coat the earth in kevlar and become immortal. :P
Re: the super speed bullet thing.I don't know if he was the first one with the idea, but KS Robinson's new book gives a rather terrifying new possibility - a swarm of bullets, too small to detect from a distance, and spread out in a cloud, but converging on the same point to deliver the same or almost the same amount of energy as a much larger one. Granted it'd be even tougher to figure out the trajectories, since they all have to hit at the same time, but with quantum computers, enough projectiles, and a little bit of on-board guidance it might just be possible across systems. Pretty much the only way to defend against something like this is to have a massive sensor-net with a comprehensive laser defense system, and that's assuming they aren't shielded enough that you can detect them in time for the hit. Otherwise your best bet is to move the target.
Depending on the distance away, the target would be able to see it quite a ways off and intercept with their own (probably another, equal mass object going the same speed, as that's about the only thing that COULD stop it). A .9c bullet traveling 1000 light years would be visible 100 light years away.
I could see such things being used in planetary warfare, but a vigilant target could avoid anything you throw at them from long distance.
I'm still doubtful of any warfare actually happening between star systems, given the distance and length of travel. Communication taking so long means any grudges are going to be forgotten by the time the message reaches the other system. And even if you do send an army for war, by the time your fleet arrives, 10 years have past, and the war's probably over or forgotten about (and that's for very close star systems!).
Interplanetary is much more likely, along with wars between colony ships and the system they're trying to colonize. Grudges between these factions seem plausible. But star systems are almost certainly going to be nearly autonomous and uncaring about those around them.
Unless we invent FTL travel/communication, of course.
Yeah, war between systems without FTL is unlikely to be a thing. But FTL has been big in the minds of man for quite a while now, and I doubt it'll be impossible by 3000C.E, possibly before then.Unless, you know, it really is impossible.
But our first extra solar colony WILL happen without FTL. And since it's liable to be Alpha Centauri (computer models have suggested it's less likely for a habitable planet to have not formed there) communications will take 8+ years for a response, meaning it'll be largely autonomous. I'm thinking a bigger, possibly slightly more thought out Age of Colonization.
I don't think armies will ever grow past civil 'defense' purposes. On the other hand you have all kinds of other ways to wipe out another system's species without ever landing so much as a probe there. In particular biological, nanotechnology, and relativistic weapons are the biggest existential threat from other species, and for other species. MAD all around, only this time negotiations take years, and you have no idea if the 'enemy' is brewing up something to destroy you in the mean time. Add in the fanatical civilian factor in a culture with autonomous manufacturing (basically any culture that's moved out into their own system) and things look all the more grim.Bioweapons seem less likely when you don't know each others biology, and nanoweapons might suffer similair problems.
Joe Haldain's "The Forever War" exploes this quite well. With relativity taken into account, a 18 month tour of duty takes years for those not whizzing around space at 99% of c. What was cutting edge when they left is crude when they return, most noticably weaponary, tactics used by the enemy, and the nature of human society. Well worth a read.Humanity is very good at killing things and only getting better at it too. If we have reached the point of near light speed travel, you can bet that the "obsolete" technology on board would be more than enough for any nobody-expects-the-inquisition moments. However if any intelligent life is out there I doubt there'd ever be much conflict.
Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War" exploes this quite well. With relativity taken into account, a 18 month tour of duty takes years for those not whizzing around space at 99% of c. What was cutting edge when they left is crude when they return, most noticably weaponary, tactics used by the enemy, and the nature of human society. Well worth a read.FTFY. And yeah, I loved the idea that there was NEVER technological parity between Earth and the Taurans. Defender almost automatically had technological superiority, because they've had time to develop and deploy new weapons and tactics while the attacker has spent all that time in cryosleep and travelling. The only time they're even roughly paritible is
This is actually one of the ways to increase the destructive potential of a large relativistic missile (such as an asteroid), by blowing it up when it is fairly close to the target. The result becomes a destructive cloud of particles traveling at approximately the same speed but over a much larger area. I mean sure a single large astroid hit would cause mass climate problems all over, but you actually only get total devastation in a relatively small area. A barrage of smaller objects in a cloud the size of a planet, while imparting less force with each one, would actually end up causing more destruction. Sure a large object might cause a crater the size of japan, but the rest of the world is relatively unharmed except by the climate change. A hail of small objects causing house sized craters over half of the entire planet will cause more actual destruction relatively, as a house sized crater will take out most buildings just as well as a larger one will.Re: the super speed bullet thing.I don't know if he was the first one with the idea, but KS Robinson's new book gives a rather terrifying new possibility - a swarm of bullets, too small to detect from a distance, and spread out in a cloud, but converging on the same point to deliver the same or almost the same amount of energy as a much larger one. Granted it'd be even tougher to figure out the trajectories, since they all have to hit at the same time, but with quantum computers, enough projectiles, and a little bit of on-board guidance it might just be possible across systems. Pretty much the only way to defend against something like this is to have a massive sensor-net with a comprehensive laser defense system, and that's assuming they aren't shielded enough that you can detect them in time for the hit. Otherwise your best bet is to move the target.
Depending on the distance away, the target would be able to see it quite a ways off and intercept with their own (probably another, equal mass object going the same speed, as that's about the only thing that COULD stop it). A .9c bullet traveling 1000 light years would be visible 100 light years away.
I could see such things being used in planetary warfare, but a vigilant target could avoid anything you throw at them from long distance.
This is actually one of the ways to increase the destructive potential of a large relativistic missile (such as an asteroid), by blowing it up when it is fairly close to the target. The result becomes a destructive cloud of particles traveling at approximately the same speed but over a much larger area. I mean sure a single large astroid hit would cause mass climate problems all over, but you actually only get total devastation in a relatively small area. A barrage of smaller objects in a cloud the size of a planet, while imparting less force with each one, would actually end up causing more destruction. Sure a large object might cause a crater the size of japan, but the rest of the world is relatively unharmed except by the climate change. A hail of small objects causing house sized craters over half of the entire planet will cause more actual destruction relatively, as a house sized crater will take out most buildings just as well as a larger one will.
"And in the future humanity will look upon me and say, he has become Mars - god of shotguns."Spoiler (click to show/hide)
A gunman in Sigma Orionis today killed 12 billion people when he opened fire on 2 planets and a series of moons and orbital habcomplexes. Enforement droids were unable to subdue him so anhilliated him with a controlled antimatter dusting, which resulted in the destruction of the uninhabited moon he was using as cover. The gunman, a Mr FutureName, was described by his VRNet aquaintances as a bit quiet, a bit of a loner, but a nice guy. It is thought he was recently laid off from his job as a FutureShelf FutureStacker at FutureWalMart and that his designated pleasuredroid companion suffered a terminal fault. He was armed with two H&K RC8 .99c scattercannons, obtained perfectly legally over the VRNet commerce section.
Well, you wouldn't have the backblast problem nearly so much in a vacuum, but there is the issue of recoil (unless you have some momentum-less method to impart velocity to the projectile).
An Antimatter-Matter rocket might be able to accelerate something to .9c in a vacuum if given a large enough travel distance.So could an impulse engine that's not strong enough to move itself off of your desk. :P
Due to the relative lack of friction in space, just about any type of engine could move an asteroid to a high percentage of c, it's just that it would take that much longer to hit your target and you would have to do that many more calculations to figure out where to aim it so it hits your target in 100 years.Which isn't as much of a problem when your target is a planetary body with a predictable orbital path. Hell, we do the same thing now, just with shorter distances and smaller timeframes, in order to get a probe to rendezvous with Saturn years after it was launched, for instance.
Obviously, we need to equip Earth with lateral thrusters so we can dodge. :PWhy do that when we can simply employ the Selenic Terra Defense Shield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon)?
I'm thinking that if Luna got hit by a RKV, we're still gonna have a really bad day.Obviously, we need to equip Earth with lateral thrusters so we can dodge. :PWhy do that when we can simply employ the Selenic Terra Defense Shield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon)?
I'm thinking that if Luna got hit by a RKV, we're still gonna have a really bad day.Obviously, we need to equip Earth with lateral thrusters so we can dodge. :PWhy do that when we can simply employ the Selenic Terra Defense Shield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon)?
Has anyone thought of the possibility that if two sentient entities were to bump into each other, they would just stay away?Dead aliens won't ever find us.
I mean, what if no one even wants to be found?
Has anyone thought of the possibility that if two sentient entities were to bump into each other, they would just stay away?
I mean, what if no one even wants to be found?
I certainly wouldn't let me them take me without a fight, no idea what they would do to me. D:I assure you, their goal would be simply to serve man :)
i'd rather be enslaved than exterminated. if a technological superior alien showed up, i know where i'd pledge my allegianceAskot's first for the experiments :P
...I detect sarcasm. They probably wouldn't do anything exceptionally good. Unless they try to offer their finest choice of food/goods. :3I certainly wouldn't let me them take me without a fight, no idea what they would do to me. D:I assure you, their goal would be simply to serve man :)
i'd rather be enslaved than exterminated. if a technological superior alien showed up, i know where i'd pledge my allegianceOnly question for me, would you betray others for that privilege?
There's more than 1 definition for the word "serve."...I detect sarcasm. They probably wouldn't do anything exceptionally good. Unless they try to offer their finest choice of food/goods. :3I certainly wouldn't let me them take me without a fight, no idea what they would do to me. D:I assure you, their goal would be simply to serve man :)
Nom nom?There's more than 1 definition for the word "serve."...I detect sarcasm. They probably wouldn't do anything exceptionally good. Unless they try to offer their finest choice of food/goods. :3I certainly wouldn't let me them take me without a fight, no idea what they would do to me. D:I assure you, their goal would be simply to serve man :)
of course!i'd rather be enslaved than exterminated. if a technological superior alien showed up, i know where i'd pledge my allegianceOnly question for me, would you betray others for that privilege?
This is of course if they are the nice overlords and not the raping and pillaging kindof course!i'd rather be enslaved than exterminated. if a technological superior alien showed up, i know where i'd pledge my allegianceOnly question for me, would you betray others for that privilege?
unless they're really intending to wipe us out, if they're as technological advanced as it is predictable, any resistance would be effectively futile and naive. if we surrender long enough to be assimilated we may be able to absorb enough technology to, if we're still willing to by then, be better equipped to fight them
besides, they're benign enough to dominate us instead of outright wiping us out, they'll probably do a better job of running this place than us
If they understand our psychology, then manipulation would be far easier than force to enslave us with.Especially if they had rays that could provoke certain thoughts or emotions long-distance.
what is there on earth to pillage for a civilization with ftl travel? i doubt the xenosexual freaks of said civilization would be numerous enough to convince their leaders to invade a planet so they could have their way with our sexy selvesThis is of course if they are the nice overlords and not the raping and pillaging kindof course!i'd rather be enslaved than exterminated. if a technological superior alien showed up, i know where i'd pledge my allegianceOnly question for me, would you betray others for that privilege?
unless they're really intending to wipe us out, if they're as technological advanced as it is predictable, any resistance would be effectively futile and naive. if we surrender long enough to be assimilated we may be able to absorb enough technology to, if we're still willing to by then, be better equipped to fight them
besides, they're benign enough to dominate us instead of outright wiping us out, they'll probably do a better job of running this place than us
Japan and 4chan.what is there on earth to pillage for a civilization with ftl travel? i doubt the xenosexual freaks of said civilization would be numerous enough to convince their leaders to invade a planet so they could have their way with our sexy selvesThis is of course if they are the nice overlords and not the raping and pillaging kindof course!i'd rather be enslaved than exterminated. if a technological superior alien showed up, i know where i'd pledge my allegianceOnly question for me, would you betray others for that privilege?
unless they're really intending to wipe us out, if they're as technological advanced as it is predictable, any resistance would be effectively futile and naive. if we surrender long enough to be assimilated we may be able to absorb enough technology to, if we're still willing to by then, be better equipped to fight them
besides, they're benign enough to dominate us instead of outright wiping us out, they'll probably do a better job of running this place than us
I'm just a bastion of pop culture references in this thread. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L86AAGZ9BBg)If they understand our psychology, then manipulation would be far easier than force to enslave us with.Especially if they had rays that could provoke certain thoughts or emotions long-distance.
If they understand our psychology, then manipulation would be far easier than force to enslave us with.
Psychology is a powerful tool to use against the human race... let's hope they don't catch on.
"Wait... this whole race is motivated by a sense of belonging and a steady mate? Jackpot! Glorg, bring out the Sexybot 3000's!"
Manipulation is so easy you could literally roll Osama Bin Laden up to the POTUS in a motorcade and no-one would notice until he got out.. Simply walking into a place you have no right to be and acting like you belong there is such a powerful disguise it tricks the Secret Service of who may be the most powerful single man on the planet.So we just go to the aliens going pretty much "Oh hey there, how are you? Nice calm solar activity around now isn't it?"? Because that is basically the best plan. Just play it cool. Pretend like it isn't a shockingly big deal.
But it could also work the other direction. Could we manipulate aliens the same way? It could be just as easy.
Really there is no point in "invading" a planet for anything other then the actual "life" on the plant (so the biosphere, for the technical out there). Meaning that there would actually be almost no chance of a destructive invasion. I mean think about it, if they were coming to steal something like water, then couldn't they just pull it in a much more transportable state from saturn's rings? (And get all sorts of useful trace minerals to boot!) If they were after some sort of mineral, aren't there millions of planets, astroids, or moons out there that you could mine from without needing to face a potentially hostile population? I mean there are moons out there with more valuable minerals then we have on Earth. That only leaves the biosphere as a potential resource, in which case you would be trying your hardest not to disturbs the planet since you don't want us to go nuke crazy and destroy whatever resource you want.what is there on earth to pillage for a civilization with ftl travel? i doubt the xenosexual freaks of said civilization would be numerous enough to convince their leaders to invade a planet so they could have their way with our sexy selvesThis is of course if they are the nice overlords and not the raping and pillaging kindof course!i'd rather be enslaved than exterminated. if a technological superior alien showed up, i know where i'd pledge my allegianceOnly question for me, would you betray others for that privilege?
unless they're really intending to wipe us out, if they're as technological advanced as it is predictable, any resistance would be effectively futile and naive. if we surrender long enough to be assimilated we may be able to absorb enough technology to, if we're still willing to by then, be better equipped to fight them
besides, they're benign enough to dominate us instead of outright wiping us out, they'll probably do a better job of running this place than us
On a somewhat related note...
Has anyone read The Mote in God's Eye? Pretty much humanity meets a race which reproduces much faster than we do and in visiting their solar system, we bring the technology that they need to expand into our solar system. The end result can be summarized as humanity shouting "OH SHIT, SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING!". The sequel ends in trade being established so let's disregard that.
The separation in time is so vast (age of cosmos vs age of civs) that the most probable contact would be ancient ruins. Probably so old and bizarre that nobody would realize for years that there was anything even there.According to ancient texts, "Many eldritch abominations just couldn't seem to die off, and have been locked away in a vault never to be exposed in large population centers again by any means. For the love of our God(s), don't try to translate ANY of the content within, you have been warned. Societies have collapsed under the influence of these things. The fact you found it in such a hellish environment should be hint enough how dangerous these things are, and that it's not as much a time capsule, rather than has been an attempt to destroy it, and has somehow failed. We apologize for our mistakes as a sentient race with the contents within."
Also, this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann)
For the love of our God(s), don't try to translate ANY of the content within, you have been warned.1. Meh on the deities, the all-atheist aliens alliteration alliance won't care for it
One of the main reasons i would want to be cryogenically frozen would be to see how our fellow earthlings evolve. At the very least, i want to be around once we pull off talking to dolphins. Now that could be a world changer.
In his bid to “speak dolphin” Jack Kassewitz of SpeakDolphin.com, based in Miami, Florida, designed an experiment in which he recorded dolphin echolocation sounds as they reflected off a range of eight submersed objects, including a plastic cube, a toy duck and a flowerpot. He discovered that the reflected sounds actually contain sound pictures and when replayed to the dolphin in the form of a game, the dolphin was able to identify the objects with 86% accuracy, providing evidence that dolphins understand echolocation sounds as pictures. Kassewitz then drove to a different facility and replayed the sound pictures to a dolphin that had not previously experienced them. The second dolphin identified the objects with a similar high success rate, confirming that dolphins possess a sono-pictorial form of communication. It has been suspected by some researchers that dolphins employ a sono-visual sense to ‘photograph’ (in sound) a predator approaching their family pod, in order to beam the picture to other members of their pod, alerting them of danger. In this scenario it is assumed that the picture of the predator will be perceived in the mind’s eye of the other dolphins.
Worst-case scenario we can just keep on lowering the pH of the ocean until the dolphins can't live in it anymore.It's much easier than that to kill dolphins. Use Sonic weaponry. Sound travels extremely far under water, and the shockwave has been reported to be deadly to dolphins and other large sea species. Just set of a few explosives and you got all dolphins within a hundred kilometers. (or More)
This will, of course, result in the extinction of most life on Earth, but the Human-Dolphin War of 2025 will end in our favor.
TBH we have been doing a pretty good job of wiping them out by fishing for tuna and suchike with trawlernets and so on for a while now. So all this conjecture about how hard to hit a dolphin 10 ft underwater with a rifle? Ill just sit over there with my net and wait until you lot are all done then get to it.Yup, killing dolphins is easier than shooting fish in a barrel. I mean, even if you miss there's a large chance the dolphin will die from the shockwave. (Which is why offshore windparks are so dangerous. The drilling for the foundations makes enormous amounts of noise.)
we could make the dolphins smarter , more agile on land and ultimately , our slaves by giving them primitive human genes that would make them a bit smarter , but not too smart or we will get the dolphin revolution ..Dna's not lego. You can't pick the parts you like and just paste it in.
if i remember correctly , scientists replaced some genes to rats with human genes and the rat had larger brains and it was smarter .Rats, unlike dolphins are remarkably similair to humans. (which is why we use them in tests and stuff). Then again, you can't just swap genes and expect things to work. Or current method of insertion is extremely inaccurate (Basically we just throw it in and hope it ends up on the correct spot) and only works for fairly small changes.
Playing with the pH balance of the ocean to kill the dolphin menace results in MAD.Not as easily.
Explosives work to a limited degree, but they still have an effective range, and a resistance to sonic shockwaves can be built up.
Idle question: is it more acceptable in some fashion (and if so, why) to create a slave race of smarter chimpanzees than to create a slave race of obedient, dumb human thralls?Well humans would fall a lot closer to human empathy territory. Being humans and all. Chimpanzees would too I guess, but they're really hairy and not as close to humans as humans.
Idle question: is it more acceptable in some fashion (and if so, why) to create a slave race of smarter chimpanzees than to create a slave race of obedient, dumb human thralls?Well humans would fall a lot closer to human empathy territory. Being humans and all. Chimpanzees would too I guess, but they're really hairy and not as close to humans as humans.
But for a slave race, if you really wanted people to not be concerned by it, you'd want them as far from humans as possible. Something like giant cockroaches maybe.
I'd like to say here that I'm extremely skeptical of the dolphin communication experiment listed earlier. If it shows up in Nature or the like, call me. Until then, I'm going to continue to think that dolphins are very smart, but not on a human level.Well there's mouths for a start. They can at least hold things.
The tool use thing is also a big thing. Even if they are smart, without graspers it'd be pretty tough to form a real civilization.
only on bay12 do we contemplate the strategies of a war against dolphinkind.
General Ripper says we should nuke them into oblivion... Then again, he always says that.
General Ripper says we should nuke them into oblivion... Then again, he always says that.
He's never been wrong...
General Ripper says we should nuke them into oblivion... Then again, he always says that.I'm just glad there isn't a general Flipper equivalent.
But hunter-gatherer dolphins can move away from irradiated areas in the same way humans could, and we get a large amount of our food and air from oceans.Burn it.
Sounds dorfy. But remember oil mmkay?But hunter-gatherer dolphins can move away from irradiated areas in the same way humans could, and we get a large amount of our food and air from oceans.Burn it.
Burn it all.
Burn the sea to the ground.
We don't need no stinking oil! We've got the sun!CRASH THE SUN INTO THE SEA
But isn't the fish going to be burned? I prefer them roast...We don't need no stinking oil! We've got the sun!CRASH THE SUN INTO THE SEA
THAT'S HOW THIS STUFF WORKS
Explosives work to a limited degree, but they still have an effective range, and a resistance to sonic shockwaves can be built up.Oh yeah and forgot to mention that explosives underwater are incredibly devastating, the shockwave will kill everything it passes. Which happens to be much larger underwater. Think about a grenade, thrown at a person no shrapnel need hit them to kill - only the shockwave. Same with underwater.
Only to a limited degree, and range changes kills to stunning to just annoying. Explosives are more effective yes, but a grenade is only good for a pond, and two grenades are also only good for a pond. A ocean is bigger than that, and unlike on land, it's a 3d environment, so there is more room you have to cover. It's like flak guns versus airplanes, except the dolphins flying "under the radar" are actually further from potential defensive actions.
Oh yeah and forgot to mention that explosives underwater are incredibly devastating, the shockwave will kill everything it passes. Which happens to be much larger underwater. Think about a grenade, thrown at a person no shrapnel need hit them to kill - only the shockwave. Same with underwater.
So yeah, a few sailors with hand grenades would decimate any conceivable dolphin aggression or resistance. They would do better to sue for peace.
I'm siding with our dolphin overlords.Is that a reference to dolphins being one of the few animals who participate in recreational sex? Or is it something else?
pls hlp thy r rapin meeeeeeee
It's a reference to that fact Dolphins have a propensity for raping eachother and other animals.
I even think I may have possibly heard a rumor about dolphins raping a whale but I've forgotten where from. :/
It's a reference to that fact Dolphins have a propensity for raping eachother and other animals.
I even think I may have possibly heard a rumor about dolphins raping a whale but I've forgotten where from. :/
Musta been one hell of a well endowed dolphin...
It's happeneing to all of Bay12.It's a reference to that fact Dolphins have a propensity for raping eachother and other animals.
I even think I may have possibly heard a rumor about dolphins raping a whale but I've forgotten where from. :/
Musta been one hell of a well endowed dolphin...
Dear god, where has this discussion gone?
Nuh uuuhhhhhOnly to a limited degree, and range changes kills to stunning to just annoying. Explosives are more effective yes, but a grenade is only good for a pond, and two grenades are also only good for a pond. A ocean is bigger than that, and unlike on land, it's a 3d environment, so there is more room you have to cover. It's like flak guns versus airplanes, except the dolphins flying "under the radar" are actually further from potential defensive actions.
Oh yeah and forgot to mention that explosives underwater are incredibly devastating, the shockwave will kill everything it passes. Which happens to be much larger underwater. Think about a grenade, thrown at a person no shrapnel need hit them to kill - only the shockwave. Same with underwater.
So yeah, a few sailors with hand grenades would decimate any conceivable dolphin aggression or resistance. They would do better to sue for peace.
So, any ship anchored in water deeper than 90' is in serious danger. This is good, because most bays are 30' ish. So you got dolphins at anchor. The problem is that most boats travel over water deeper than this. Dynamite will have better range. NUclear bombs even better range. There is a problem with detection though. If they hug the sea floor, they will be quite hard to pickup on sonar before they are releasing the thermite trash bombs on the underside of the ship. Also a ship weakened in such a way is at risk of sinking itself if it uses cuncussion on the dolphins. I think we might be able to build ships faster than dolphins make dolphins, but they already are experimenting with biological augmentation with their species, dolphinwhales and such... I don't think a whale is as vunerable to this as a dolphin. Also dolphins can jump out of concussive water. Dolphin ninjas... Only time will tell if our somalians are up for the challenge.Ships don't damage easy, dolphins do. The dolphins'd have to get up close and personal with a whole lot of volatile explosives (who knows how they even manufactured it underwater?), before detonating it by the ship causing an explosion of steam likely killing the dolphin. So yeah, suicide dolphins.
Musta been one hell of a well endowed dolphin...Either that or it didn't come back 'till fall...
So what would happen if someone managed to mutate dolphints into land-walking bipedal creatures with opposable thumbs?I'm pretty sure they wouldn't qualify as dolphins anymore.
Or you know, just a new family of dolphin species. Delicious, new dolphin species.So what would happen if someone managed to mutate dolphints into land-walking bipedal creatures with opposable thumbs?I'm pretty sure they wouldn't qualify as dolphins anymore.
So what would happen if someone managed to mutate dolphints into land-walking bipedal creatures with opposable thumbs?
And what if they became sentinent and could comunicate with us?
And what if they became sentinent and could comunicate with us?*ahem* Mermaid thread *ahem*
I'd like to say here that I'm extremely skeptical of the dolphin communication experiment listed earlier. If it shows up in Nature or the like, call me. Until then, I'm going to continue to think that dolphins are very smart, but not on a human level.
Well, we know that Neanderthals had Religion, or at least we're fairly sure they did, and we're fairly sure that Dolphins don't, so we know that Dolphins must be either less intelligent or less curious than Neanderthals. Or they somehow know SCIENCE without any kind of lead-up.
Nevermind, found it:Likewise. But I feel like it'd be a bit odd for the humanity to be special/unique in such a way from the rest of the (fictional) universe, even if viewed negatively.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_Universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_Universe)
I need to read these some time.
NO.Living green, if that includes soylent green!
It's world peace or living green. ONE OR THE OTHER.
World peace is bad because war promotes industry and innovation because fuck the other guy.You can see it like this, I prefer to see it as the fires of Conflict being used to forge creativty.
In other news, war is bad because it fucks your economy right up, and it leads to hate, racism and bigotry.
You do realize that the Old Swiss Confederacy waged (mostly successful) wars of expansion more or less starting from their founding in 1291, along with a couple of internal conflicts. It wasn't until the Peace of Westphailia in 1648 that the European powers-that-be recognized their independence from the Holy Roman Empire. Internal struggles continued in the 17th and early 18th centuries. They were conquered by Napoleonic France in 1798, but resisted against the Helvetica republic, a French puppet state. In 1815 they once again regained their independence and established their position of neutrality. The Swiss then had more internal struggles until the drafting on the Swiss constitution in 1848. So please, don't extrapolate 500 years of Renaissance peace from 160 years of modern Switzerland.NO.Living green, if that includes soylent green!
It's world peace or living green. ONE OR THE OTHER.
No, no world peace. Peace is bad. Over 500 years of war suppresion and toruture under the medici family, Italy produced the Renaisassance, the works of Leonardo, The great inventions of the time. And, over that same period, Switzerland experianced hundreds of years of peace and calm growth, and what did they invent? The cuckoo clock.
I don't want 4-dimensional cuckoo clock, I want a damn Holo-graphic Painting of The Mona-Lisa. And That's why world peace is bad.
The "war promotes/does not promote the economy" thing is fallacious. The economic effects of war are dependent upon the nation engaging in war. The US profited from WWII so much because the government more or less took over the whole country's industry and gave them guaranteed business for years. The US didn't profit from the Vietnam War because it lasted a decade during which most of the fighting was bogged down and focused upon the desires of paranoid politicians and the early military-industrial complex.Also, the US sold quite a lot to Europe. With it being a battlefield, Europe needed to buy it's weaponry food and all other stuff. War can overstimulate the economy though, which can be dangerous. Hence the reason they issue war bonds
It's a curious thing about humanity, not only do the majority of our inventions come from originally-military uses, but those that don't we look for some way they can be used by the military. We could develop the instant-pill-cure-a-cancer and someone'd wonder how to weaponise it...Also, any cancer cure is a highly effective cell killer that is capable of avoiding friendly fire. You could easily reprogram it(considering you somehow programmed it in the first place) to instead target other types of cells, creating a deadly disease that depending on the complexity will only target a certain group of people.
Which is obviously easy. Use high powered lasers to give all your enemies cancer, and negotiate peace in exchange for the cure. Then poison the cure and leak documents blaming it on a third country, creating a scapegoat that either allies the survivors of your genocide with you for revenge or creates enough confusion that you can just roll in and curb-stomp the fractured and cancer-ridden survivors.
See, we instantly come up with a way to weaponise ANYTHING. Humanity are the McGuyvers of War.
although it hinders cooperation somewhat.It has no place in the age of information, it stops the hivemind of humanity from existing! So uh... Yeah, steal the aliens' internet.
Are you truly that cruel? Cut off their largest circle of communication? Tear away an incredibly valuable resource?although it hinders cooperation somewhat.It has no place in the age of information, it stops the hivemind of humanity from existing! So uh... Yeah, steal the aliens' internet.
Are you truly that cruel?
We should instead just throw the residents of the more bloodthirsty corners of 4chan on their internet.
It's the same way you just shoot a horse stuck in barbed wire rather than try to stab it to death with a butter knife. The quicker the experience is, the less cruel it is. And I'm pretty sure the aliens losing their communications and pornography would be a slower loss for them that leaving because new words have been made up to insult their species.Are you truly that cruel?
...We should instead just throw the residents of the more bloodthirsty corners of 4chan on their internet.
Lol
It's the same way you just shoot a horse stuck in barbed wire rather than try to stab it to death with a butter knife.That's a terrible analogy, just get some wire cutters. Jesus. Anything goes wrong and you guys just jump straight to the mercy killing. Makes me wonder if you all aren't psychopaths.
Also likening a sapient space faring species to horses.It's the same way you just shoot a horse stuck in barbed wire rather than try to stab it to death with a butter knife.That's a terrible analogy, just get some wire cutters. Jesus. Anything goes wrong and you guys just jump straight to the mercy killing. Makes me wonder if you all aren't psychopaths.
Aren't psychopaths?It's the same way you just shoot a horse stuck in barbed wire rather than try to stab it to death with a butter knife.That's a terrible analogy, just get some wire cutters. Jesus. Anything goes wrong and you guys just jump straight to the mercy killing. Makes me wonder if you all aren't psychopaths.
But that is what happens. I saw it in a documentary once, and television never lies.It's the same way you just shoot a horse stuck in barbed wire rather than try to stab it to death with a butter knife.That's a terrible analogy, just get some wire cutters. Jesus. Anything goes wrong and you guys just jump straight to the mercy killing. Makes me wonder if you all aren't psychopaths.